Podcasts about rachel it

April: Welcome to the Weinberg in the World Podcast where we bring stories of interdisciplinary thinking in today's complex world. My name is April and I'm your student host of this special episode of the podcast. I'm a second year student studying physics and integrated science, and I'm looking forward to learning more about our guest's career. Today, I'm excited to be speaking with Rachel Pike who graduated from Northwestern in 2006 and is now COO at Modern Treasury. Thank you, Rachel, for taking the time to speak with me today. Rachel: Nice to be here. Nice to meet you April. April: You too. To start us off today, I was wondering if you could tell us more about your time at Northwestern as an undergrad. What did you study? And how did you get to your current career path? Rachel: Oh, man, two different parts. The easy part is to say what I did at Northwestern, so I majored in chemistry, physical chemistry specifically. I had a minor in African studies through the center or program for African Studies. And I did my honors chemistry work with Franz Geiger, Professor Franz Geiger in the chemistry department. So that's sort of the what. My major extracurricular was Fusion Dance Company. That's where I spent a lot of my time. How I went from there to here is such a circuitous, crazy path. It is not direct. I left Northwestern and did a Gates scholarship, I did a PhD in chemistry at Cambridge. Loved it, but I was not meant to be a professor. You could ask John Pyle or Franz Geiger, both of whom advised me. It's just it takes a very certain wonderful mindset, but it's not me, to be a lifelong academic. So I left academics and got an amazing role in venture capital and got to learn all about startups from the investing side. Did that for just over four years. And in my last couple years, started getting really close to one of our companies and operating with them and ended up launching products for them and got the bug. Realized that that was a better calling, a better match for me, which we can talk more about what I mean by that. And moved into operating, so then I worked for a health tech healthcare software company and then I moved here into FinTech. So it sort of couldn't be more random, but also each step made sense only as one step. It's just as a sum, they lead you very far from where you were. Not normal in any sense, but in the end I just don't think anything is normal. All paths turn out to be good as you make these accumulation of small decisions. April: Yeah, okay. What are the most challenging and rewarding aspects of your current job then? Rachel: There's a lot. The hardest thing in a startup, there's so many things that are hard about startups, growing startups, but prioritization and focus is one of the hardest things. And you have to actually prioritize not doing things you want to do, which is very antithetical to what it's like to be a driven, hungry person and be in a company of 200 driven, hungry people. You want to do everything that you see that seems like a big opportunity and a challenge that we need to fix, but you can't. There just literally is not enough time in the day and there's opportunity cost to lack of focus. So I think the hardest thing is, the phrase I always use with my teams is you have to let that fire burn. You just have to pick things that you know are broken that you're not going to fix, that it's not the highest priority thing to fix or things you want to work on that you know we just can't go work on that thing right now, we have to work on this other thing. So it's very counterintuitive and I would say that's the hardest thing to learn when you enter startups, how to get through that kind of mindset. April: Yeah, prioritization is pretty hard when there's so many options. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, when there's so many options and when you're hungry and you feel like a small startup is always up against big Goliaths, so there's a billion things you can do to go after companies that are bigger. So I would say that's the hardest in terms of not the content of what we do is the wrong word, but what Modern Treasury builds and how we bring it and sell it in the market and how we run the company. Letting fires burn and ruthless prioritization is the most unnatural part of working for a startup, I would say. On the interpersonal part, so not what we do, but how we do it, like in every stage of life and everywhere I've been, the hardest part of anything is getting really good at giving and receiving feedback. And that is a lifelong, you have to dedicate your life to it and using that to make decisions with people. April: Could you talk a little bit more about what your company does and what your role is? Rachel: Yeah, sure. So I'm chief operating officer of Modern Treasury. Modern Treasury is a payment operations software platform. So we help companies of all sizes, from other startups to huge big public companies, manage their money movement. And it sort of sounds like a back office thing, but really, we actually mostly get bought by product and engineering teams. And those product and engineering teams that are our customers want to do payment stuff. They want to build a digital wallet or embed payments in their application. Or we also serve non-tech companies, so you're buying a house and you need to pay the real estate agent or you're buying a house and you have to go through the title and escrow process on that home purchase. A lot of money moves around in those businesses. In fact, it's core to all of those products to move and manage and track money. So we build the software for that. Complex payment systems get built on top of us and complex payment products. We have an engineering database product called Ledgers, which is how you, with high performance and perfect fidelity, track balances, which is a really hard computer science problem, although it seems that it should be easy. It's a very hard computer science problem. And then you can imagine that as we grow and have more and more data and understanding, we're building more and more AI into our platform, so teams can run in a safe way with AI helping them. So anyway, yeah, it's a complicated thing that we do, but we help companies move and manage their money movement. April: Okay, cool. So how well did college prepare you for this career, do you think? Or what was the most important skill that you learned from college? Rachel: There's so many things that you learn in college as you sort of separate from home life and become your own person. I think there's soft skills and hard skills. I obviously don't use the traditional academic knowledge that I got in my undergrad and graduate experiences in chemistry, not a chemist anymore. But I don't think there's anything that can replace scientific training in how to think and pursue questions and how to separate how to go through a research process and understand and also understand the limits of your knowledge. That is a very profound experience the more advanced you get in science. I didn't even get that advanced. But in understanding the boundaries of what the community of scientists knows and what personally and how to ask questions, build a hypothesis, and go again. And I know that the hypothesis process is something you learn in like second grade or fourth grade or whatever, you go to school, but truly, that process is very hard, like holding yourself to a standard of making a rigorous, very thought out hypothesis and understanding what would prove or disprove that. In a scientific setting in a lab, sometimes it's a little easier to go through that process. Hey, if this experiment works, I'll see X. In a business environment, that's actually very hard. How do you measure? Is that metric actually counting that? What else is getting conflated into these signals and systems? And then almost everything, unless it's something like website clicks or latency or something that's directly measurable, almost all the signal that you get is mediated through people. So not only do you have to go through this process of trying to constantly get to truth, everything that you're trying to pursue is going through people. So I would say academically, that's the longest lasting impression for me. My team gets annoyed because I say things like rate-limiting step all the time, which is a chemistry phrase. So it taught me how to think. I think another very impactful part of my college, two other very impactful parts of my college experience, Fusion was just getting started, I was one of the people that helped get it started. And starting a club that is, very proud to say it's long-standing and I could never audition and get accepted today, is a lot like starting any organization. How do you run things? What is governance like? How do you navigate people? What are the expectations? How do you communicate that? How do you do things excellently? Starting and building a club is very similar to starting and building an organization, it's just we get a lot more complicated with time. So I learned a lot in that process and running rehearsals and putting on a show and what it's like to run an audition process. I have very fond memories of that. And lastly, I would say is I studied abroad for all of junior year. And I don't know if this is true, but someone along the way of me, because chemistry has so many sequential requirements, and it was very hard for me to figure out how to do those requirements and still be away for a year, someone along the way told me I was the only chemistry major who was ever away for a year then. It's probably not true now. I also don't know if that's true, speaking of rigorous hypotheses, so that's an aside. But the experience of being abroad, I was in Tanzania, was obviously profoundly eye-opening. And being in multiple cultural contexts, not just for travel, but for a long period of time with real life, day-to-day life, it just changed my whole perspective on the world. And then same thing, I lived abroad again for my PhD, so I was abroad on and off again for about like five out of six years. It really changed my perspective on the world, my perspective on people, and I only got that opportunity because of college. April: Yeah, college is a great time to study abroad and do those things. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. April: [inaudible 00:09:31] possibilities, yeah. Also, it's so interesting to hear that you found Fusion or helped found it because it's such a big thing on campus now. Rachel: It's such a huge thing now. April: [inaudible 00:09:39]. Rachel: Yeah, no. We really grew it, but it was small when we started. We were just in parades and doing small shows, and then we finally started putting shows on in Tech my last two years there. It was very fun, really meaningful experience. April: That's great. Yeah. Rachel: Yeah. April: Then you kind of touched a little bit on this, but could you elaborate more on the biggest adjustment you had to make going from undergrad to industry? Rachel: I actually got this piece of advice when I went from my PhD to venture. I went and had coffee. One of the coolest things about Silicon Valley and the technology community is that it's very open and if you ask people for advice, they're really open to giving it and having conversations like this, but times 10. So one of the coffees I had was with someone who had also had a PhD and moved into venture. And he said something to me that has always stuck with me, which is the biggest adjustment you're going to have to make is the complete lack of rigor in business decisions, which is hysterical, and I don't think fully true, which I'll explain, but it is true, the standards of rigor in academic science are completely different than the standards of rigor in making a business decision. So I always think about that moment of you got to get used to the fact that they make decisions with less information. I think that's only partially true. I think one of the reasons is true is what we talked about, that data is often mediated through people, and so it doesn't feel as rigorous. But actually, the decisions you're making about and with people are just as important. It's just different, and that is a very big adjustment. There is not always right. It's not a test or a thesis or whatever, and that's a big change. There's just making a decision and then owning the consequences of the decision and upside of the decision. But that, it's a huge change. So that's what I would say one of the biggest adjustments that I had to make. On a more practical basis, specifically like Silicon Valley and startups, they're just opportunities, they are roles, sorry, environments with very little management structure. That's the whole point, you're doing something from scratch. There's not someone telling you what to do. That's not true if you go into industry and go to a very big technology company or a bunch of industries I've never been in that are managed in totally different ways. That obviously is like two hops from undergrad. I had a PhD and then I had time in investing. But yeah, working without a lot of oversight, also a big change. April: [inaudible 00:11:58]. The training you get from undergrad to grad school and then going to industry, it's a bit of an adjustment, but yeah. Rachel: Yeah. April: It's an interesting problem, how you would apply your scientific training to the business world. Rachel: Yeah. What do we know and what do we not know, is a question I often try and ask myself. In fact, I was thinking about it late last night about something we're trying to figure out in our business. And it's hard because you sometimes feel like you know things that you don't. It's a trick of the brain. April: Then sort of related, but what are some current trends that you're seeing in the industry or in the area that you work or some of the modern day challenges? Rachel: I would be remiss if I didn't say the most enormous trend in technology right now is AI. So there's sort of no other answer you can give them that, this unbelievable explosion in technical capability and then it's application into all kinds of industries. So I don't know, Modern Treasury has been such an interesting ride. One of the things that is interesting about startups is you really cannot predict the world around you. So this tiny company, we're not tiny anymore, but this company that was tiny, I was the first employee, it was just the four of us, just us chickens in a co-working space, trying to build this payment operations company. And in the interim, COVID happened and we could never work together again until many years later. And then Silicon Valley Bank crashed and there were multiple bank failures all over the country. If that had happened two years earlier, it would've taken our business down. As it happened, it accelerated our business like, oh my god, better lucky than good. Now we're going through an AI transformation. Crypto has gone up and down three times in those six and a half years. It's just wild what happens around you and how that affects the work you do day to day. So I don't know. One thing I would say is things are unpredictable. I have never learned that more than in this particular job I'm in now. April: For sure. Would you say that kind of unpredictability is characteristic of working at a startup versus a larger company or even in academia, for example? Rachel: It's a good question. I'm not sure I'm the right person to answer because I've never worked in a huge company. I've always worked in... Investing is also in the business of startups, so I don't think I'm the right person to answer. I think I have a hypothesis that it affects you less. If you're in a big established company where things don't go, the amplitude of the curve isn't quite the same level, I don't think you necessarily feel it as much. AI is happening to everyone no matter where you work, right? I assume you're all using it every day in your undergraduate environment. So that's universal. I think how it affects your job or what you're using it for is probably different. If you're a computer science undergrad, it's really affecting what your experience is like compared to five years ago. If you're a physical chemistry undergrad like I was, doing some frequency generations two floors below in the basement of Tech, I'm sure it's helping on the research side, but nothing changes the lasers but hands yet, until the AI robots come. So I just think it depends how much the volatility affects your certain area of pursuit. April: That makes sense, yeah. So with all this volatility, how do you approach work-life balance? Rachel: I don't think there is any, in all honesty. My mornings are totally insane between the 27 things I'm trying to do, and I'm always later than I want to be to my first meeting, and that just is what it is. I actually have a four-page document called Working with Rachel and for people to get to know what it's like to work with me when I hire and bring on new teams or new managers, et cetera. And one of the things that's in here is my mornings are insane and I'm always late and I'm totally frazzled and whatever, but I can almost always talk in the afternoons and nights almost any day. You just have to know your rhythm. Exercise is a huge part of my management of work-life balance. So probably started before Fusion, but definitely long, hard dance practices helped me get through undergrad. And at every phase of life I've sort of had a different exercise, deep exercise pursuit and crutch, I would say, to get through the craziness of life. So that's really important for me personally to focus and, I don't know, just get to a different level than the overly intellectual all the time, brainwave level into the body and into the breath. So that's huge. And then more tactically, I'm terrible about always having my phone around, but I do always have my laptop on do not disturb. So when I'm working in my environment, Slack and email are going constantly nonstop, especially Slack. So if I actually want to write or actually want to read or actually want to listen, the pings don't help. But to do my job, I need to be ever present with my teams. So just practically, it's always on do not disturb, and then I pick when I check. So I don't know, that goes from small to big of how I manage and cope with work-life balance, but it's the truth. April: There's some pretty good tips though. Sympathize. Rachel: Do people in Northwestern use Slack? Is that part of an undergrad life or no? April: Some of the clubs use it. I have a couple- Rachel: More texting? April: Yeah, they use GroupMe. Yeah. And then I know a lot of the research labs use Slack. Rachel: Oh, that makes sense. April: Yeah. Rachel: Yeah. But less of the all in every day, all encompassing, et cetera. April: Yeah. Rachel: Yeah. April: Do you think those work-life balance habits were developed during your graduate school years or in college or as you go into industry? Rachel: I don't know about do not disturb because technology has, not technology, but the physical hardware of communication has advanced so much. I'm so old compared to you guys. And when I was an undergrad, Facebook came out when I was a sophomore. So just think about how different of a world it was then. We had really kludgy Hermes email, Hermes email server at Northwestern. So the never ending notification encroach on our life, it existed then. And of course, we texted, but we texted T9. So it's just a different world. So we had it and obviously we all needed to learn how to focus, but not to the extent that it is a challenge for people in college and PhD programs now, I don't think. That's my guess as an outsider. But some things, like exercise, 100%. I think those things get developed earlier on. But once you're in university, it's your decision to continue to pursue them and how much you pursue them and how much they're a part of the rhythm of your life. So that, I would say for sure, I established for myself at Northwestern. April: Was there anything at Northwestern that you wish you had participated in that you didn't? Or the other way around, that you did but you wish you had opted out? Rachel: I wish I'd done dance marathon earlier. I only did it senior year and it was like what an incredible experience. Once you had the experience, then you realize, oh, I should have been doing this the whole time because it's like, I don't know, it's just something you could only do in an all encompassing environment like that. My major regret at Northwestern is actually academic, which is a silly small choice, but I studied French in elementary and high school and I really wanted to learn Spanish as a California person. So I took it in college, but that ate up a lot of quarters of getting my language credit because I was going from scratch. So my regret, and I'm not very good at languages anyway, so it's not like it stuck around, my regret is actually not that I took it, it came from good intentions, but that I used up six possibilities of taking classes in non-chemistry, non-African studies. Just you're spoiled for opportunity in undergrad of going to learn about everything. And it's one of the amazing parts about Northwestern and the way they do the core curriculum, that everyone has to learn a little bit of everything somehow. And that's my biggest regret. I regret not taking a philosophy class or a whatever. I took one world religion class, but should I have taken two. That breadth is the thing that I crave and miss. And by the time you get to PhD, and certainly in the British education system, you specialize earlier, so that opportunity's gone. You can obviously go to lectures and stuff, which I did, but it's not the same as being in a class. So yeah, my biggest I wish I had is I wish I hadn't taken Spanish in that environment and done it some other way and had six quarters to go just do dealer's choice of interesting things in departments I never would've gotten to know. April: Did you have the Weinberg language requirement? Rachel: Yes. April: But you got out of it with French? Rachel: I could have taken I think only one quarter or no, I can't remember how my testing was, sorry. But I could have taken either one quarter or zero quarters of French. But I instead put myself from scratch with Spanish because I've never taken it before. So I don't know, I just think that was good intentions, wrong decision. April: It happens. Rachel: Anyway, yeah, that's my biggest, I don't know, regret is too strong a word, but if I had a magic wand and could do it all over again, I would've taken more general humanities or other types of classes. April: Speaking of classes, what were some of your favorite classes at Northwestern? If you were to- Rachel: Oh my God, do I even remember? April: Yeah. Rachel: The physical chemistry. I don't remember if it's physical chemistry honors class or physical chemistry practicum. It's the last thing you take senior year with real world lab problems. And that class, there were six of us and we were in lab, I don't know, four or five hours twice a week. We were there all the time. It was so hard and so intellectually stimulating. I remember that class extremely well. I remember my world religions class. I don't remember who taught it, but it was the only time I ever studied anything like that. That was interesting. And I remember some of the seminar debates I had with other people. I don't know, those are the two that come to mind. April: Very cool. Now that we're getting towards the end of our time, the last question is if you were to look back on your undergrad, which I suppose we already did a little bit, but what advice would you give, I suppose, other people in your position? Rachel: I have one very specific piece of advice that I give to a lot of undergrads or people early in career, which I can share. And then the other is one that I give all the time now, but I don't know if it's relevant, but I'll share that one too. I'll start with the second one first because it might be less relevant. The one I give now, that is also can be very counterintuitive to people who are working on giving and getting feedback and what it takes to truly manage and motivate teens, is that clarity is more compassionate than kindness. And I don't mean don't be kind because the goal is, of course, to deliver clarity with extreme compassion and care. But it's nerve wracking to tell someone, "You're not meeting expectations for this role," or, "We did not hit our goal as a company and we have to make this really hard decision," or whatever the hard thing is that you have to say. It's harder to say it clearer than to say, "Well, I know you this and what about that, and I'm so sorry and this is hard, blah, blah, blah. But I think maybe the role," and then the person walks away and is like, "I don't know what I heard," and they don't know that they're not meeting expectations. So I would say that took me, it's a lifelong pursuit, I don't think I'm perfect at it yet. No one anywhere in my academic career, undergrad or grad, really taught me that. So that's one. I'm not sure if that's relevant for a sophomore undergrad, but maybe. April: I think so. Rachel: Could be. The advice that I often give to undergrads or very early in career folks, who are either looking for startups or end up whatever. I actually have a call with one this afternoon who's a woman who's a family friend who's thinking about a job change and she's like just wants my advice. I think that one of the unrealistic things that somehow culturally gets imbued in very driven and successful students, like all of the people who get accepted to Northwestern, is that you can have it all in your first job. And that is fucking bullshit. And I think it leads to a huge amount of heartache and angst because it's not true. Now, what you can have is one or two awesome things. So when you're, like you graduated at 21 or 22 or whatever age you are, you have usually no strings attached. You can make incredible broad decisions that you can't make later on and that affords you the opportunity to go do amazing things. But what you can't do is do it all at once in that one first job. So the specific example that I often give is you could pick where you work or what industry you work in or that you make a lot of money, but it is basically impossible to pick all of those things. So if you're a econ undergrad at Northwestern, of which there are many, it's probably pretty hard to work in a mission-driven company, make a 300,000 a year banker undergrad job, and move abroad for that first job as an American, blah, blah. That doesn't exist. If you want to make a lot of money, there are incredible programs with established firms where they really reward you for hard work really early on and that's the trade that that job encompasses. And if that's valuable to you, awesome. But you're probably going to be in one of their major locations and they're unlikely to ship you to Sydney for being 22. If you have the opportunity to go do something extremely mission driven that speaks to you, that's amazing, go do that. But you're probably not necessarily going to pick where or you're not going to be highly compensated. So I often talk to people who are in their early 20s who are like, "But I really want to be in New York, but I really want to work, I want to be in the arts and I want to do this, but I need a lot of money to support this thing." You're like, "You can't have it all." And that's not bad, it's just true. And it's much more compassionate for me to tell you, April, if you want to pursue physics, that's awesome. I was a PhD student. You're not going to make any money in your 20s. April: That's true. Rachel: But you might work at the cutting edge of science in something incredible that super motivates you. That's awesome. So if I could wave a magic wand for undergrads, I would get rid of that angst of that decision making. And the decision can have angst because it can be hard to choose a path, but the you can have it all, I think is a great lie. That's not fair to people in their late teens and early 20s in undergrad. I thought of another one, so I'm going to give you a third, even though you didn't solicit another one. Which is you at the beginning of this you asked about my career, which is kind of all over the place from a traditional perspective. I was in academics and then I went to investing, and then I went to startups. And then in startups, I was in healthcare and I went into payments in FinTech. It's all over the place. Every time I made the jump, everyone around me told me I shouldn't because I was leaving their path. And to be an amazing professor, you stay in academics. So people leaving academics is like, they don't want to give you the advice to do that. Or when you're in investing, the way you stay in it, and particularly in private investing, it's long feedback cycles. You got to stay and practice the craft. So I said, "Hey, I'm an operator at heart. I'm going to go do this thing." Some people encouraged me, but many people said, "Why would you ever do that? Why would you ever leave the job you have? Stay in practice." And then same when I left healthcare and picked a totally new thing. So that's more mid-career advice, which is like it's okay to leave that perfect tracked path and trust your gut. April: Yeah, that's actually really valuable advice, so thank you. Rachel: I hope so. April: Yeah. Thanks for taking the time out of your day to talk with me and to give all this advice to whoever's listening. Rachel: Yeah. It's awesome. Nice to meet you, April. April: Mm-hmm. And thank you for listening to this episode of the Weinberg in the World Podcast. We hope you have a great day and go Cats.  

Recap of Episode 22 of Australian Survivor Brains V Brawn 2 - Battle of the Brains! Thanks for listening! Follow us: Instagram @ATASurvivor TikTok @ATASurvivor Email us: ATAustralianSurvivor@gmail.com Transcript: 00;00;00;00 - 00;00;03;43 Rachel Hello and welcome to American stock Australian survivor I'm Rachel. 00;00;03;45 - 00;00;04;17 Leah I'm Leah. 00;00;04;21 - 00;00;05;39 Matt And I'm Matt. 00;00;05;44 - 00;00;25;34 Rachel Thanks for joining us. We just watched episode 22 of Australian Survivor brains versus brawn two. And there will be spoilers ahead. We open up on the final five. Woo hoo! Wow. It's been a long journey for these players, but they are proud of themselves and they have made it to a huge accomplishment on any season of survivor to make it to the final. 00;00;25;34 - 00;00;29;09 Leah 544 days. It's unbelievable. 00;00;29;14 - 00;00;31;49 Matt You start to get nervous now right? 00;00;31;54 - 00;00;45;36 Rachel Yeah, and they should be, because we see Miles and Zahra talking on the beach. And Miles and Miles really wants to sit next to Zahra at the end. He thinks he can beat her and he thinks it's time to target age. It's number one. 00;00;45;41 - 00;00;47;57 Leah I don't want AJ to go boo. 00;00;48;02 - 00;01;05;54 Rachel Well, you know, I mean, I think we talked last episode about Kate and Morgan turning on each other and how how they didn't turn on each other because they have such a close alliance and how it's tough to watch that on survivor because you say, oh, it's a game, you've got to vote out your friends. And now here we go. 00;01;05;54 - 00;01;11;48 Rachel We see Miles being a survivor player, saying, I'm going to vote for my friend because I want to win this game, right? 00;01;11;51 - 00;01;15;11 Leah You did. He kept saying that I'm going to win the game. 00;01;15;22 - 00;01;32;04 Matt And with all the seasons of survivor we've watched, there's always people saying we're going to be friends for the rest of our lives. On the outside, we're going to stay in touch. So I mean, they become very good friends with when you eat, sleep and drink with somebody all day for weeks. 00;01;32;08 - 00;01;37;50 Rachel Yeah. And I think that Myles and AJ both have enough respect for the game that they'll be friends outside of this for sure. 00;01;37;52 - 00;01;41;37 Leah Well, Miles even said that that he thinks that data will respect them. 00;01;41;37 - 00;01;42;02 Leah Exactly. 00;01;42;10 - 00;01;43;30 Rachel So he's thinking that yeah. 00;01;43;37 - 00;01;45;42 Matt Yeah. When I vote you out, you'll respect me. 00;01;45;43 - 00;01;46;00 Leah Yeah. 00;01;46;00 - 00;01;59;27 Rachel One thing that Myles did say to Zara is when I take out AJ, the jury's going to be wowed. So Myles is already taking credit for this move. That hasn't happened yet that he needs Zara to help with. 00;01;59;31 - 00;02;00;15 Matt It's funny all. 00;02;00;15 - 00;02;01;01 Leah These all these. 00;02;01;09 - 00;02;04;27 Matt Plans it seems like a battle of the brains is really coming. Coming true. 00;02;04;31 - 00;02;16;13 Rachel Yeah. We've barely heard about Kate by the beginning part of the episode. She was almost gone last night and now she seems to have skated on by because the post grads are turning on each other, right? 00;02;16;20 - 00;02;22;25 Leah Yes. Well, I think it's interesting that there are four brains left. And last season, Hayley won 00;02;22;25 - 00;02;27;24 Leah the last brawn versus brains. So it's interesting. The brains. Here they go again. 00;02;27;28 - 00;02;31;36 Rachel It certainly looks like the brains are victorious against the brawn. 00;02;31;45 - 00;02;34;51 Matt If you could just get through those first couple of ones that you lose 00;02;34;51 - 00;02;35;33 Matt the brawn 00;02;35;33 - 00;02;42;18 Matt finishes all the, the tribal, the challenges and wins them all. If you can just get through those, you have a better chance, right? 00;02;42;27 - 00;02;44;49 Rachel Being a brain if you can make it to the merge. Right. 00;02;45;26 - 00;02;59;34 Rachel Well we see the brains all talking to each other. The postgraduates and Myles is expressing that Kate is next. And AJ being the great poker player that he is. Says that's ridiculous. He's definitely got something else up his sleeve. 00;02;59;37 - 00;03;00;56 Leah Yeah. 00;03;01;00 - 00;03;06;23 Rachel So he knows him well. Yeah. He doesn't know that he's the target, but he certainly knows him well. 00;03;06;28 - 00;03;11;15 Matt Right? He thinks it's Kaitlyn. Yeah, AJ thinks my Myles is going to vote Kaitlyn. 00;03;11;15 - 00;03;13;00 Leah Right? And he tells Kaitlyn that. 00;03;13;00 - 00;03;16;49 Rachel And he also tells Art, which is interesting that Zar is getting all A's. 00;03;16;54 - 00;03;17;27 Leah Yeah right. 00;03;17;39 - 00;03;31;03 Matt And I thought for sure at this point that AJ was going to say and Myles has a now an idol but he didn't. He kept it like a good poker player. Kept it close to his chest. Didn't let other people see what he knows. 00;03;31;03 - 00;03;49;22 Rachel Well now it's time to get into the immunity challenge. So. Right at the beginning, we talked about, you know, how Kaitlyn's won so many. And AJ announces to the group that he wants Kaitlyn to win every single one in hopes that he doesn't stop. Which is an interesting thing to say about your competitor. 00;03;49;27 - 00;04;04;53 Leah I think AJ is such a good friend to Kaitlyn. He really sincerely wants him to keep winning and maybe he knows since he is good friends with Kaitlyn, Kaitlyn will protect him with that with immunity. I guess it's better to have your friend win it than someone else. 00;04;04;58 - 00;04;09;19 Rachel Yeah, and I guess AJ probably could beat Kaitlyn at the end. I think that's what he's thinking. 00;04;09;24 - 00;04;10;34 Leah I think so. 00;04;10;39 - 00;04;15;06 Matt I guess so. So if Kaitlyn wins everyone, that's okay because he'll take me with him. 00;04;15;11 - 00;04;16;20 Leah Yeah. 00;04;16;25 - 00;04;19;24 Rachel Yeah I don't know if AJ has told us who his top 00;04;19;24 - 00;04;20;33 Rachel person said Kaitlyn. 00;04;20;33 - 00;04;22;44 Leah I thought he so did. Yeah I think he said both and. 00;04;22;44 - 00;04;26;34 Rachel It makes me. Yeah yeah makes sense that he wants Kaitlyn to keep winning immunities. 00;04;26;34 - 00;04;29;27 Matt But did he ever tell Myles that he was that they were. 00;04;29;34 - 00;04;32;28 Leah I think Myles and AJ know that they can't take each other. 00;04;32;30 - 00;04;34;04 Matt Okay. They're smart enough. 00;04;34;05 - 00;04;34;27 Leah Yeah. 00;04;34;29 - 00;04;38;49 Rachel Yeah. Yeah. They know they can't sit next to each other. But what what how would that be. That would be. 00;04;38;49 - 00;04;44;55 Leah Awesome. I would be the best. The absolutely best. And who would win? Yeah. All right, so off to the immunity challenge, 00;04;44;55 - 00;05;05;23 Rachel Yeah. So they have to take these blocks over a little obstacle where you can, you know, trip it and wobble your stack, and you have to stack up 12 blocks. So it feels kind of similar to last night's, challenge at tribal council where, you know, you're stacking things and it's balance and it's precision. Right? So I, I was a little frustrated that it was quite similar. 00;05;05;24 - 00;05;08;42 Rachel I would have wanted something a little bit different. Right. Back to back. 00;05;08;43 - 00;05;09;07 Leah Challenges. 00;05;09;11 - 00;05;12;41 Matt Similar to immunity challenge number two from from the previous. 00;05;12;41 - 00;05;34;13 Leah Episode. Well, what I didn't like is that they didn't base it on height. Like AJ had an extremely difficult time getting under the, gate. And, Jonathan even said something about being like, I don't know, something about tall. Yeah, it was a challenge, so that just doesn't seem fair. Why not make it so everyone has an equal, distance? 00;05;34;18 - 00;05;36;08 Matt Okay. Should be based on your body, right? 00;05;36;09 - 00;05;36;42 Leah Correct. 00;05;36;54 - 00;05;43;59 Rachel Because, yeah, for the strength ones, they do it by percentage of your body weight. So it should be the same thing. It should be based on your height. 00;05;44;00 - 00;05;44;31 Leah Yes. 00;05;44;42 - 00;05;49;42 Matt And someone with shorter legs has a harder time because they have to lift their feet up higher. So maybe they're just saying it's, 00;05;49;42 - 00;05;58;10 Matt both, you know, taller people have to duck down lower. Shorter people have to lift their feet higher. But I think you got to lift your feet higher a lot more. I don't know. It should be. 00;05;58;21 - 00;06;01;03 Matt I feel like it should be the same for everybody. Based on your height. 00;06;01;03 - 00;06;01;38 Leah I agree. 00;06;01;48 - 00;06;03;18 Rachel They never take our advice. What 00;06;03;18 - 00;06;05;25 Rachel changes are they working on? 00;06;05;30 - 00;06;10;25 Leah Yes I know. Yeah. All right, so Caitlin's in the lead, right? 00;06;10;30 - 00;06;14;01 Rachel Yeah. To no one's surprise, Kate and Caitlin are both doing well. 00;06;14;06 - 00;06;15;27 Leah Right? Very well. 00;06;15;27 - 00;06;18;19 Rachel it looks like Caitlin's about to pull through, but he drops. 00;06;18;25 - 00;06;23;34 Leah Oh. All right, number 11. How upsetting. Oh, down. Wow. Had to be hard. 00;06;23;38 - 00;06;29;11 Rachel And he was, you know, preparing himself, taking a deep breath before he went in. So that was really too bad. 00;06;29;16 - 00;06;30;56 Leah Now okay. So that's the lead, right? 00;06;30;56 - 00;06;47;33 Rachel Yeah. So it's everyone's anyone's game really at this point. And this is one of those this is kind of fun about these sort of challenges is that you see people build up their stack and then they fall, and then someone else is in the lead and then someone else builds up. So it's kind of like a revolving door of who is leading the challenge. 00;06;47;33 - 00;06;49;31 Rachel So that's always a little exciting. 00;06;49;31 - 00;06;59;14 Rachel We see a lot of people drop. We see Myles drop on his absolute 12th block, yet the last one I need to set to take away the oh I couldn't get it. 00;06;59;14 - 00;07;01;27 Rachel So he looked really upset about that. 00;07;01;32 - 00;07;05;14 Leah And Zara wins. Yeah for Zara. 00;07;05;19 - 00;07;10;04 Rachel I don't think she dropped at all. She finally hurt as J. Upset. Finally. Yeah. 00;07;10;04 - 00;07;11;46 Leah Yeah, right. I honestly. 00;07;11;51 - 00;07;17;34 Matt I think that was an odd thing to say. Well yeah somebody is winning them all. And then you win one fight. 00;07;17;35 - 00;07;26;50 Leah Right right right. Well maybe but she did a great job. Like she's slow and steady. And congratulations to Zara. That was really incredible. And it. 00;07;26;54 - 00;07;30;20 Matt Was great at the end even as they were leaving the stack was still standing. 00;07;30;25 - 00;07;34;27 Leah Right in the background and she was doing a little dance. Yeah, right. 00;07;34;32 - 00;07;35;13 Rachel She seemed very. 00;07;35;13 - 00;07;38;30 Leah Proud. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it was great. 00;07;38;35 - 00;07;39;42 Rachel I don't think we. 00;07;39;45 - 00;07;46;11 Leah Could do that. Yeah. No. Yeah. It was fun to see her so happy. Yeah, right. She's a very serious player, so that was nice. 00;07;46;11 - 00;08;03;20 Rachel So let me get back to camp. And Myles and Zara are still gunning for, AJ and they're really thinking ahead. They say we're going to tell Kate to vote for Kaitlyn. And then on the next vote at the Final Four, we're going to say, hey, Kaitlyn, remember when Kate voted for you? We've got to get her out. 00;08;03;20 - 00;08;11;17 Rachel So they're thinking, you know, multiple steps ahead of how to get people mad at each other. So you have to appreciate the good gameplay. 00;08;11;22 - 00;08;20;21 Leah I do, but Zara made a good point. She said. If we fail this, it's not going to be good, right? So they have to make sure they do not fail at this vote. 00;08;20;21 - 00;08;27;29 Rachel Yeah, so they're planning to do two votes on, Kate, two votes on AJ and then one vote somewhere else. 00;08;27;29 - 00;08;29;00 Matt On Kaitlyn, I think. 00;08;29;05 - 00;08;34;12 Rachel On Kaitlyn. And then they're going to revote and then it's going to be two. So they've got a. 00;08;34;12 - 00;08;35;37 Leah Lot of right. 00;08;35;47 - 00;08;40;42 Matt Then there's only the two of them who can vote. And then they can both vote off whoever they want to vote. 00;08;40;42 - 00;08;46;53 Rachel AJ dizzying to think about all these different strategies that everyone has going on with only five votes. 00;08;46;59 - 00;08;53;56 Leah I don't know how they do this. They're so tired. And now, you know, I haven't had anything to eat. But here, they're very good. 00;08;54;01 - 00;08;54;44 Rachel They're good. 00;08;54;44 - 00;09;01;16 Matt But it's interesting that they could, that Myles comes up with a 2 to 1 vote. And then AJ comes up with two one. 00;09;01;18 - 00;09;04;15 Leah Yes. Well that's why they're friends. 00;09;04;20 - 00;09;05;33 Rachel Yeah. They think alike. 00;09;05;35 - 00;09;06;15 Leah Really. 00;09;06;20 - 00;09;21;29 Rachel Well Kaitlyn had a great plan to set a rat trap. So he thinks that he's pretty worried about Myles idol. So I guess Kaitlyn knows about the idol. It's hard to keep track of who knows about the idol and who doesn't, but I guess Kaitlyn knows. 00;09;21;29 - 00;09;23;52 Rachel He thinks that's going to come down to Myles versus Kate. 00;09;23;52 - 00;09;30;44 Rachel So he's like, if Myles plays his idol, then K goes home. If Myles plays his idol for Kate trying to send Kaitlyn home. Yeah. And Myles goes home. 00;09;30;44 - 00;09;31;02 Leah So 00;09;31;02 - 00;09;35;13 Leah yeah he's thinking. He was thinking I like Kaitlyn's plan. I thought it was a good plan. 00;09;35;17 - 00;09;50;43 Rachel Yeah. And then AJ says you know we're gonna have two votes on Myles. Gonna have two votes on Kate. Then we're going to revote on Kate. And it's just a lot of a lot of re votes allotted two on two splits. But it's interesting that AJ is gunning for Kate who he tried so hard to save last night. 00;09;50;54 - 00;09;54;43 Leah Well I think he's a postgraduate graduate. Must be loyal to them. 00;09;54;43 - 00;09;55;53 Matt Sticking to the four. 00;09;55;56 - 00;10;02;51 Leah Yeah, yeah. So I think them working together they said since the beginning right. So yeah. 00;10;02;51 - 00;10;05;48 Matt He spent every day with two days with Sara. 00;10;05;53 - 00;10;06;46 Leah Yeah. Yeah. 00;10;06;50 - 00;10;11;01 Rachel Do they really known each other. Yeah. Yeah. Like a month and a half together. That's crazy. 00;10;11;02 - 00;10;11;58 Matt Gosh. 00;10;12;03 - 00;10;14;16 Rachel No breaks to go to work and come back. 00;10;14;19 - 00;10;15;00 Leah Okay. Go to. 00;10;15;01 - 00;10;15;55 Matt Sleep. You can't. 00;10;16;06 - 00;10;17;11 Rachel Drive all the time and drive. 00;10;17;11 - 00;10;18;44 Matt In your car and listen to a podcast. 00;10;18;49 - 00;10;25;31 Rachel Well, it is nice to see that AJ has sort of finally left. Kate's a spell. You seem to really be, 00;10;25;31 - 00;10;35;00 Rachel you know, siding with her quite a bit on a lot of these votes. But it seems like for whatever reason, he has flipped a switch and he's no longer, trying to save Kate. He's actually looking to get her out. 00;10;35;00 - 00;10;50;33 Rachel then we see Zara say that she is, you know, obviously she's thinking about AJ, but she also doesn't want Kate to make it to the final three because as we know, Kate and Zara are both good at endurance. Right? And Zara needs to set herself up to win for that situation. 00;10;50;38 - 00;11;00;19 Leah And so you see Kate and Zara talking, right? Yeah. And Kate tells Zara that Miles told her to vote for Kaitlyn and Zara seems quite surprised. 00;11;00;19 - 00;11;08;11 Rachel Yeah, because Kate is following Myles and not AJ, which is not what you would have expected from Kate. So this really flips things around for Zara. 00;11;08;23 - 00;11;11;41 Matt Well, Myles also did give her kind of an ultimatum. You have no choice. 00;11;11;41 - 00;11;14;39 Leah Yeah he's not very nice and for sure you know. 00;11;14;44 - 00;11;18;42 Rachel That does seem to be his go to strategy to say well you've got to do my way. You have no choice. 00;11;18;49 - 00;11;20;54 Leah Well, I think it's funny that Zara became. 00;11;20;55 - 00;11;22;12 Matt Really vote for whoever she wants. 00;11;22;12 - 00;11;33;56 Leah Yeah, but Zara ends up being the swing vote. It looks like. Right. If Kate's going to go with Myles, then it looks like she Zara will figure out. 00;11;34;01 - 00;11;35;14 Rachel But yeah. So deciding. 00;11;35;14 - 00;11;36;36 Leah Oh sorry. Go ahead. 00;11;36;41 - 00;11;53;22 Rachel Susanna has figured out that all four players on the beach are voting for each other, so Kate's voting for Caitlin. Myles is voting for AJ, Kaitlyn's voting for Miles and is voting for Kate. So there's four people eligible to receive votes and they all have one accounted for. And Zara gets to be the deciding. 00;11;53;22 - 00;11;55;07 Leah Vote, right? I know right? 00;11;55;12 - 00;11;59;15 Matt A huge move for her that all just kind of like fell in line. 00;11;59;20 - 00;12;05;04 Leah Well I think the big thing also is that Kate is finally looking for an idol. 00;12;05;04 - 00;12;06;21 Rachel Next time. 00;12;06;25 - 00;12;09;22 Leah But Myles is filing her and, you know. 00;12;09;29 - 00;12;10;48 Matt Half heartedly it seems like. 00;12;10;48 - 00;12;14;10 Leah Yeah, but still we still. Oh, are you looking for an idol? Yeah. Yeah, 00;12;14;10 - 00;12;17;28 Rachel It is nice to see Kate finally taking our advice and writing. 00;12;17;28 - 00;12;18;26 Leah For the night. 00;12;18;31 - 00;12;21;47 Matt We're 48 hours and the end of the game. You gonna look for an idol now, right? 00;12;21;56 - 00;12;22;23 Leah Right. 00;12;22;25 - 00;12;23;36 Rachel Well, better late than never, 00;12;23;36 - 00;12;39;29 Rachel Well, it is interesting to kind of think about Zara's plan here, so I'm thinking, well, she knows that she needs a big move because she played a really good game pre merge directly after the merge. I think she did a really nice job, but lately she hasn't really been doing quite as much. 00;12;39;29 - 00;12;49;30 Rachel So if she were to get out AJ yeah that's huge for her resume. But what if she ends up sitting next to Max? That's really Miles's move. More so than Zara's move, right? 00;12;49;30 - 00;12;53;33 Matt Right. And she could end up sitting next to Kate and she doesn't want to do that. 00;12;53;38 - 00;13;01;07 Rachel Well, yeah. So Kate's a big competition, but it's the easy vote. It doesn't have a huge mark on her resume. 00;13;01;12 - 00;13;04;57 Leah Yes, but the brains are thinking, right. Yeah, yeah. 00;13;05;02 - 00;13;10;53 Rachel But I'm thinking if I were Zara, I think the best move is to target Myles at this point because 00;13;10;53 - 00;13;22;14 Rachel AJ is not her original move Myles you know Kaitlyn's already voting for him, but it doesn't seem like anyone else thinks he's going home. And he really wouldn't suspect it at this point. So I think that would have been a big move. 00;13;22;24 - 00;13;23;26 Leah But yeah, the idol. 00;13;23;40 - 00;13;32;00 Rachel He does have the idol, so she's got a lot of choices, but it's hard to pick out like an exact good choice for Zara at this point in the game. 00;13;32;05 - 00;13;40;22 Matt Right? I don't feel like we got that from Kate. From Zara that she should vote for Myles she didn't even, like, considered. It didn't seem like. 00;13;40;22 - 00;13;41;31 Leah No. 00;13;41;35 - 00;13;47;19 Matt And we don't know that she knows he has an idol. So it seems odd that that part was missing. 00;13;47;24 - 00;13;51;43 Leah Well, I thought it was interesting because then you see Myles and AJ sitting on the beach 00;13;51;43 - 00;13;56;40 Leah AJ says I don't trust you for a moment to Myles. 00;13;56;45 - 00;14;18;57 Rachel So this is kind of sad. It's like their final goodbye almost their final chat on the beach. And Myles is tearing up and yes National. And it was it was kind of bittersweet to think about all the times that those two have sat on the beach together scheming away. And now there's like this underlying current where it's like, well, you can't tell me your plan, but I hope you don't vote for me, right? 00;14;19;00 - 00;14;30;23 Rachel Oh, it is, and it's I don't know, I think it's every, duo seems to get to this point in the game, but it's always I mean, it's just interesting to see. It's kind of emotional to watch. 00;14;30;27 - 00;14;38;23 Leah Yeah. Right. Well, I think also AJ said, Kaitlyn will take me to the end. No one else will. So that's interesting. 00;14;38;23 - 00;14;44;52 Leah Yeah, he he thinks Kaitlyn is the only one who's going to take him to the end. And I think he must believe that he'll beat Kaitlyn. 00;14;44;57 - 00;14;45;52 Rachel No, I think he can. 00;14;45;52 - 00;14;47;11 Leah Yeah, I can. 00;14;47;11 - 00;14;54;27 Matt Yeah, but that's that's a good point because he's probably right. Everyone else knows he's a good player. So why would you take him? 00;14;54;32 - 00;14;55;01 Leah Yeah. 00;14;55;06 - 00;14;59;16 Matt Right. Don't you think everybody is going to take Kaitlyn? 00;14;59;21 - 00;15;01;40 Rachel Yeah, I guess it's hard to say. 00;15;01;45 - 00;15;03;58 Leah But there's more surprises at tribal. 00;15;03;58 - 00;15;05;48 Leah What about the jury? Oh, I just. 00;15;05;48 - 00;15;11;55 Rachel We saw that Morgan has left the game. She's opted not to sit on the jury, but actually to go home instead. 00;15;11;55 - 00;15;19;10 Leah I mean, she took someone's place. She did not play this game, and now she leaves. Yeah, I think that's a really bad. 00;15;19;16 - 00;15;20;15 Matt So disappointing. 00;15;20;15 - 00;15;20;44 Leah Yeah. 00;15;20;49 - 00;15;34;36 Rachel Yeah. I was thinking about, Do you guys remember Noonan from the beginning of the season? She loved. Yeah, the game of survivor. So much. It's palpable on the screen. And I was just thinking, you know, she would love to sit on the jury. She would I sure. You know, it's an honor. 00;15;34;36 - 00;15;39;17 Matt And I would have been so excited to be there and hearing their stories, seeing what's happening. Yeah. 00;15;39;22 - 00;16;01;16 Rachel Yeah, she was a good player on the jury. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, a huge honor to be on the jury because you get to stay in the final, sole survivor of your season. You get to decide who wins the game. And it's such a huge part of the game. It's the jury. And to leave, it's like at that point, you may as well just quit the game because you already are not seeing it through to the end. 00;16;01;20 - 00;16;03;48 Rachel And I was yeah, it's very disappointing to see this. 00;16;03;59 - 00;16;05;40 Leah It's very upsetting actually. 00;16;05;45 - 00;16;11;24 Rachel You know, a morgan's an Olympian. So we know that she's been dedicated to things in the past and you just don't, 00;16;11;24 - 00;16;16;38 Rachel you know, expect someone as an Olympian to be, you know, quitting a game in the middle of it. Really. 00;16;16;43 - 00;16;17;53 Leah And she doesn't seem. 00;16;17;53 - 00;16;24;58 Matt That upset that she was leaving. Right? It's not like, you know, I've worked so hard for this, and this is my dream, and now I'm going to get voted off. 00;16;24;59 - 00;16;31;52 Leah And maybe someone told her, hey, why don't you go on survivor? And she just did it, but really doesn't care about it. I mean, she just didn't seem to care. 00;16;31;52 - 00;16;38;07 Matt I have read that in American Survivor they do go after certain people. They approach people. 00;16;38;12 - 00;16;38;42 Leah Who don't even. 00;16;38;42 - 00;16;40;43 Matt Apply and say, hey, you would be good on. 00;16;40;43 - 00;16;42;51 Leah Survivor. Oh, really? Yeah. 00;16;42;56 - 00;16;48;11 Rachel So maybe she didn't. She may have never even watch the game. Maybe she doesn't even know how important the jury is. 00;16;48;25 - 00;16;52;48 Leah Well, I'm sorry, you just made a good point about Noonan. I wish she would have made it farther. 00;16;52;48 - 00;17;10;09 Rachel I know she was fine. You know, she was terrified. The game was passionate about it. Who understands the role of the jury, the responsibility. And, you know, this is altering the game to not have your vote at the end, playing, you know, giving a say into how the game ends. It alters the game. 00;17;10;13 - 00;17;14;12 Leah Right. And Kate probably was pretty disappointed to not see her. 00;17;14;12 - 00;17;14;40 Rachel Yeah. 00;17;14;40 - 00;17;17;11 Matt Yeah. Especially if she was hoping for a vote from her. 00;17;17;11 - 00;17;17;59 Leah Yeah. So yeah. 00;17;17;59 - 00;17;19;48 Leah So that was crazy. 00;17;19;53 - 00;17;23;01 Rachel Yeah. So very disappointing. Interesting that, 00;17;23;01 - 00;17;31;52 Rachel think it was Ben at the beginning of the season, quit kind of unexpectedly from the brains, from tribe and, Morgan from the brawn tribe. Right. So it's. 00;17;31;52 - 00;17;32;59 Matt Season. 00;17;33;04 - 00;17;42;39 Rachel And it's not looking good for brains versus brawn. It looks like the bronze are quitting. They're not making it as far in the game. It's right. Looking like the brains are victorious overall. 00;17;42;41 - 00;17;50;40 Matt And I wonder if the four brains. I wonder what the reaction was when they heard that Morgan wasn't there. Probably like good. 00;17;50;45 - 00;17;53;26 Leah Yeah, because Morgan didn't like any of them. Right. 00;17;53;31 - 00;18;08;52 Rachel Yeah. I wonder if it even changed Zara's. I mean, I don't think it did, but I wonder if it made Zara reconsider her vote, knowing that if she were to sit next to Kate, she would not have that guaranteed vote for Morgan. 00;18;08;57 - 00;18;11;11 Leah I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. 00;18;11;16 - 00;18;16;05 Rachel Well, probably not, because, the tribal they're discussing, 00;18;16;05 - 00;18;21;52 Rachel you know, when to make a big move is it time to turn on the core four? It's going to be so awkward for. 00;18;21;53 - 00;18;22;57 Matt Bell to get awkward. 00;18;22;57 - 00;18;28;02 Rachel And when is it time to make your last big move, or, you know, one of your last big moves? 00;18;28;11 - 00;18;50;32 Leah Well, I like it that they showed us everyone but Sara. Their votes. So AJ voted for Kate, Kaitlyn voted for Myles. So that was weird because AJ was supposed to vote for Myles mapper, but I guess he just couldn't do it. Kate voted for Kaitlyn as Myles told her to do and Myles voted for AJ. So now all of them have a vote so we don't know if she's great, who Zara's going to pick. 00;18;50;32 - 00;18;52;40 Leah And that was very, very interesting. 00;18;52;45 - 00;19;00;12 Matt So it worked out perfectly for the producers. Yes, let's do it this way. I was like, yes, we knew what was going to happen up until the last vote. 00;19;00;17 - 00;19;01;56 Leah Yeah, that was really good. 00;19;02;01 - 00;19;05;13 Rachel But before they could read the votes, we had another twist. 00;19;05;13 - 00;19;10;01 Rachel Number four Myles plays idol number four for himself. 00;19;10;05 - 00;19;11;59 Matt And the jury is just like, 00;19;12;04 - 00;19;14;10 Leah Yeah. Thank you. Nothing like it was. 00;19;14;19 - 00;19;22;48 Rachel Yeah. Four idols. That's wild. And, you know, I mean Myles would be the one to ask, but there's got to be close to a record to play for. 00;19;22;48 - 00;19;26;03 Leah I was right, I went Indian. Oh yeah. That was awesome. 00;19;26;03 - 00;19;28;38 Matt That would have been funny if he would have said that. I believe this is a record. 00;19;28;53 - 00;19;35;58 Leah If anybody knows what the record is for how many idols a player? Yeah, yeah. Please let us know. Yeah. 00;19;36;03 - 00;19;46;37 Rachel All right. Yeah. So he played three correctly so far. This last one was incorrect. But that's okay. It's the last chance to play it. May as well and save himself just to be sure. 00;19;46;39 - 00;19;50;22 Matt Right. Well that would have been pretty bad to play it for Kate. And then he goes home, right? 00;19;50;22 - 00;19;50;47 Leah Yeah. 00;19;50;47 - 00;19;57;38 Rachel So we get down to it. And the very first vote out of the urn is for Myles. Does not count. Then the jury was shocked. 00;19;57;42 - 00;19;59;04 Leah Yeah. They were. 00;19;59;04 - 00;20;09;01 Rachel And then as we knew it was going to happen everyone got a vote. And there's one more vote. And at this point I'm thinking oh it's got to be AJ you know. Oh this is so sad. Here it goes H. 00;20;09;03 - 00;20;10;04 Leah Yes I'm thinking. 00;20;10;04 - 00;20;12;15 Matt It's going to be Myles and there's going to be a revote. 00;20;12;21 - 00;20;15;40 Leah Oh I doubt it's going to be AJ I was so scared because I don't want AJ that. 00;20;15;55 - 00;20;21;44 Matt People couldn't vote. So Myles would have been able to vote. Yeah Zoro would have been able to vote. 00;20;22;33 - 00;20;23;52 Rachel That would've been interesting to see. 00;20;23;52 - 00;20;24;53 Leah The exciting to see. 00;20;24;53 - 00;20;26;10 Rachel Oh, that would've been good, right? 00;20;26;10 - 00;20;26;19 Leah Yeah. 00;20;26;19 - 00;20;29;11 Matt And then if they couldn't agree on it. 00;20;29;16 - 00;20;29;41 Leah Yeah. 00;20;29;41 - 00;20;35;41 Rachel Well, it came down to Kate, I was shocked. I really was not expecting Kate to go home tonight. 00;20;35;54 - 00;20;55;21 Leah I know that, Zara has not wanted Kate the game because for it since the beginning, it seems like they do it since they were together. But, I was surprised. But did you see the big surprise from The Graduate? They were just like, whoa, AJ, I mean, it looked like none of them could believe that Kate was going home. 00;20;55;21 - 00;20;57;25 Leah So they were very, very surprised. 00;20;57;27 - 00;21;02;42 Matt AJ was quite surprised to get a vote. Yeah. He asked Myles, would you vote for. 00;21;02;47 - 00;21;03;37 Leah Yeah, yeah. 00;21;03;38 - 00;21;05;28 Matt File says you. 00;21;05;33 - 00;21;31;23 Leah Me yeah. So as I predicted, if this fails, there's going to be a lot of trouble. So and I think that's what's going to happen. But the interesting thing is the postgraduates and the brains are still here. So now the no bronze, they're all gone. So, just like Haley and King George. Two brains. Yeah. They're, you know, who knows who these four will end up being the two, but they're going to be brains. 00;21;31;23 - 00;21;32;47 Leah So. Yeah. 00;21;32;55 - 00;21;36;23 Matt Interesting. I think it looks in the previews. It looks awkward for me. 00;21;36;23 - 00;21;37;08 Leah It does. 00;21;37;13 - 00;21;39;25 Rachel Oh yeah. He's in a bad spot. 00;21;39;30 - 00;21;51;06 Leah But it's always funny going back to the beginning. You look at the players who like the Bryan have to win. I mean there's no way the brains are going to win. But here the muscles, right? 00;21;51;11 - 00;21;53;13 Matt Everybody's got a great body right. 00;21;53;18 - 00;22;00;12 Rachel Well thinking back to our initial predictions. So Matt you chose Myles. So it's looking like he's doing pretty well. 00;22;00;12 - 00;22;01;06 Leah Yeah. 00;22;01;11 - 00;22;02;32 Matt He's final four. 00;22;02;37 - 00;22;03;08 Leah Yeah. 00;22;03;20 - 00;22;05;08 Matt Hopefully further than that Morgan. 00;22;05;08 - 00;22;18;16 Rachel Yeah you chose Morgan. But I just point out yeah yeah. So that wasn't what you expected now. And I chose Karen. Of course. The only one of the graduates to be sitting on the jury and not in the Final Four. 00;22;18;20 - 00;22;19;32 Matt She's in the jury. 00;22;19;37 - 00;22;20;11 Leah Yeah, she's. 00;22;20;11 - 00;22;20;42 Rachel In the jury. 00;22;20;42 - 00;22;41;44 Leah But she was a very good player. She should be right there. Actually, when I think about it, I know Zara has done quite well, but I think Karen was more active in her gameplay. She was more like Myles in AJ. I think that's right. So I, I though Zara deserves to be where she is. I think it would be or AJ or Myles or Kaitlyn. 00;22;41;58 - 00;22;50;20 Leah I think it would be nice if Karen was up there also. I don't know who who she would replace. I'm just saying I think she should be up there because she was a good player. 00;22;50;20 - 00;22;50;58 Leah Yeah. 00;22;50;58 - 00;22;58;19 Rachel Well, it's been an interesting season and it's not over yet. I cannot wait for Sunday to see what's going to happen. 00;22;58;19 - 00;22;58;51 Leah Oh, boy. 00;22;58;51 - 00;22;59;21 Rachel Hey, Jim. 00;22;59;33 - 00;23;01;13 Leah I I'm sorry. 00;23;01;17 - 00;23;17;05 Rachel I think I'll go ahead. You know, if AJ would have gone home tonight, I think after the game they could have repaired things and said, you know, oh it's part of the game. Not a big deal. But now that he didn't go home this is really going to blow up. They're going to be are you are they going to be able to recover? 00;23;17;05 - 00;23;20;37 Rachel I don't think AJ is going to see it as just game play anymore. 00;23;20;48 - 00;23;28;23 Matt Right. And hopefully they come back at night. I mean, hopefully they show us more of what happens as soon as they get back to camp instead of when the sun comes up. 00;23;28;23 - 00;23;30;46 Leah I yeah, I think they will. I hope they, I think they will. 00;23;30;50 - 00;23;34;06 Matt But anyway, I hope you guys continue to help me support Myles. 00;23;34;06 - 00;23;34;42 Leah Sorry, 00;23;34;42 - 00;23;37;32 Leah I'm not supporting Myles. Sorry. Oh, jeez. 00;23;37;32 - 00;23;50;47 Rachel I think I would say Miles deserves to win out of all five of these. I think I'm rooting for Myles to win at this point or at all for players left because he I mean he played for idols. He has a crazy story. 00;23;50;47 - 00;23;51;30 Leah What you guys have. 00;23;51;32 - 00;23;59;02 Rachel Really doing very well. And I think he deserves the title of Sole Survivor. If he can get himself to the final two, which is going to be tough. 00;23;59;04 - 00;24;02;27 Leah But what about AJ? I guess AJ didn't play as much as Myles. 00;24;02;29 - 00;24;05;29 Matt What about Kaitlyn winning all the immunity. Yeah you know. 00;24;05;34 - 00;24;06;41 Leah And Zara still. 00;24;06;46 - 00;24;20;15 Rachel Saying yeah. The great thing about this Final Four is that everyone has a chance of winning and everyone deserves their spot here. We've seen a lot of seasons where someone's dragged along and it's not that fun, but I think this is a great final four. 00;24;20;15 - 00;24;22;33 Leah Yes, I agree is a separate car. 00;24;22;37 - 00;24;25;31 Matt I can't wait till Sunday to see what happens. 00;24;25;35 - 00;24;46;20 Rachel Yeah. So let us know what you think about this Final Four. Do you feel that everyone deserves to be there? And who do you think will be the sole survivor out of the postgraduates? Let us know on Instagram at survivor, TikTok at survivor and send us an email at eight. Australian Survivor at gmail.com. Thanks and we'll see you next week. 00;24;46;20 - 00;24;46;50 Leah Bye bye. 00;24;46;50 - 00;24;47;23 Matt Bye.  

Join Frank and Shirley as they unpack the drama, strategy, and unforgettable moments of Survivor Season 47, Episode 13: Bob and Weave. This penultimate episode sets the stage for an epic finale, with alliances crumbling, unexpected idol plays, and key decisions that could crown or crush a winner's dreams. Tune in as Frank and Shirley dissect Rachel's masterful gameplay, Genevieve's shocking elimination, and the tensions brewing among the final contestants. 00:00 - Introduction: Season 47 breakdown and CBS's split finale strategy. 00:24 - Discussing eliminations: Genevieve and Andy's game-ending moves. 02:00 - Rachel's journey: Why her strategic idol play changed the game. 04:15 - Challenge breakdown: Puzzle precision and dramatic comebacks. 06:40 - Tribal Council fireworks: Jury reactions and major revelations. 12:32 - Emotional high stakes: Rachel vs. Genevieve rivalry heating up. 18:50 - Final immunity challenge: Who earned their place in the finale? Rachel's Idol Play: A masterstroke that blindsided Andy and reshaped the game. Genevieve's Fake Idol: An effective tool for deception, but ultimately her undoing. Strategic Rivalries: The tension between Rachel and Genevieve created a compelling narrative. Challenge Highlights: The contestants' perseverance and adaptability shone through intense immunity battles. Emotional Moments: Rachel's heartfelt reflections and resilience added depth to her gameplay. “The only thing better than attending your own funeral is knowing you're going to wake up here the next morning.” - Rachel “It's Rachel's game to lose at this point.” - Shirley “If Rachel wins this challenge, the rest better bring fire because that's their only shot.” - Frank Enjoyed this episode? Don't miss the thrilling conclusion next week! Subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Leave a review to let us know your favorite Survivor moment, and share this episode with your fellow fans using the hashtag #OutlastPodcast. Visit Us: GeekFreaksPodcast.com – Your source for all things geek! Follow on Social Media: What are your predictions for the Season 47 finale? Who do you think has the best chance to win? Send us your thoughts and questions for the next episode! Survivor Season 47, reality TV podcast, Survivor strategy breakdown, tribal council drama, CBS Survivor, podcast for Survivor fans, Rachel Survivor idol play, Survivor finale predictions, Survivor Season 47 review. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/outlast-podcast/support

Rachel is a professor, an author, and a VBAC mom who is here to share her story from a traumatic C-section birth through a VBAC. This episode really dives deep into how picking the right provider is key to improving your chances for a VBAC. They give practical questions to ask your providers, more than just yes or no, to really get to know their birth philosophy and what qualifications and experiences your provider might have that would make them a better fit for VBAC chances. Rachel and Meagan also give a lot of validation and advice on how to start the process of overcoming birth trauma; it's reality and to not be ashamed of it. You're not alone. Through the many important messages of this episode, they both mention many times to trust your intuition. If something feels off, listen to that. And if a change in provider is necessary…it is never ever too late to change. Invisible Labor: The Untold Story of the Cesarean SectionHow to Naturally Induce LaborHow to Turn Prodromal Labor into Active LaborMembrane Sweeps for VBACHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello everybody! Welcome to the show! I am so honored to have Rachel Somerstein on with us today. She is a friend of ours from New York. She is a writer and an associate professor of journalism at SUNY New Paltz. She is an author of Invisible Labor: The Untold Story of the Cesarean Section.  And her writing has also appeared in the Boston Globe, The Guardian, The Washington Post, and Women's Health. She lives in Hudson Valley, NY with her husband and her two children and is here to share her stories with you today. Rachel had an unplanned Xesarean section with her first child and the experience was anything but routine. I know that there are many of us who have been through this journey and on this podcast, maybe listening today, that also had an unexpected experience and it may have left us with trauma, or doubt, or fear, or all the feelings, right? And so she is going to be talking to us today about her experiences, but then also we're going to talk about some guidance on how to find peace and to offer ourselves grace and to set ourselves up for a much better experience next time. We do have a review of the week, so I want to get into that and I'm going to turn the time over to Rachel.This review is by Deserie Jacobsen. The review title is “Thank You.” She actually emailed this in and it says, “This podcast and parents course is amazing. I am not a VBAC mom, but I have been listening since 2020. I binge listen near the end of every pregnancy to remind me of everything I need to remember in birth and process through my previous births. This time around I felt more prepared than ever before, having plans in place just in case. We were able to have a quick birth of my 5th baby. I love the education, passion, and love this podcast gives. I recommend it to everyone I know, and I have learned so much from it. I am so grateful for this podcast, thank you.”Thank you so much Deserie for your review! Seriously you guys, I just love hearing that people are finding the information that they need, they're finding community, they're finding that they can do this too. Just like them, and all these reviewers and all the people that have shared their stories and all these reviewers you guys can too. This birth, VBAC, is possible too. Better experience is possible. A healing CBAC; it's possible. You guys, all it takes is getting the information, the prep, finding the provider, to have a better experience.Meagan: Alright Ms. Rachel, welcome to the show and thank you again so much for being here with us. I kind of talked about this a little bit before we started recording about how I think your episode is going to be so powerful and deep and raw too. You've got these feelings and these words. I love it. I love reading your book and I can't wait to hear it from your own mouth. Which speaking of book, can we talk about that a little bit? What kind of just inspired you, jumpstarted you into writing a book about this?Rachel: Well, I'm a writer. And I wrote an essay about my birth about two years after I had my baby, my first birth, my C-section. And I realized I had a lot more to say and also I heard from a lot of moms when that came out and that made me start thinking that I think there was a bigger project. Meagan: Absolutely. And an amazing project that you completed.Rachel: Yes.Meagan: And remind everybody before we get into your stories where they can find your book. I actually have it here in my hands. It's Invisible Labor. So where all can they find that? And we'll make sure that we link it. Rachel: Sure, thank you! Yeah, so it's Invisible Labor: The Untold Story of The Cesarean Section. And you can get it on Amazon, you can get it from Barnes and Noble, you can get it from your local bookstore, you can get it as an audiobook? Or you can also get it as an ebook.Meagan: For the audiobook, did you record it?Rachel: I did not. The narrator is Xe Sands and she did a great, great job. It sounds excellent. Meagan: Awesome. We'll be sure to link that. I think it's definitely a book that everyone should check out. There's a lot of power in that book.Rachel: Thank you.Meagan: And it's not even just your story. I mean there's a ton. Like if you go through the note section there's a ton of research in there, and history and studies, and so many really great things. Well okay, let's hear about the story that started the inspiration and behind this amazing book.Rachel: Sure! Thank you. So like so many moms, I had an unplanned C-section that I was completely unprepared for, which is another reason I wanted to write this book because I think a lot of people go into pregnancy just assuming they're going to have a vaginal birth and like me, I didn't even read the parts of the books about C-sections, I skipped them. Because I was not going to have a C-section. Which is whatever, hindsight is everything, right? But I had a totally textbook pregnancy. I switched to a different group of midwives and OB's about halfway through because I just didn't have a connection I felt with the providers in the first one. And frankly, I didn't have a connection with the providers in the second one either, but by that point, I was like well whatever, it's fine. Which I think is actually, if I could go back and do it again I would have changed that. But you kind of are like, I don't want to, could I possibly change again? And I think that for people who are VBACing, yes you can and sometimes you actually really need to, even like late on in your pregnancy, people will switch groups or providers even late in the third trimester, so. Meagan: Even if you're changed already, you can do it multiple times.Rachel: Exactly.Meagan: It's not a bad thing to find the right provider for you. It's not. Rachel: It's not. And It's hard. And you can feel like, Oh my god. Am I really going to send all my records over? It can feel like so much effort and it can really be worth it. I just wanted to say that as someone who switched once and then was like, Okay, I'm done, and wished I'd switched again. So anyways, it was late in week 39 I went into prodromal labor but I didn't know that prodromal labor even existed because nobody told me about it.  And it was my first baby. So I was like is this labor? I think I'm having contractions, these are not Braxton Hicks. And in the end, we talked to the doula I was working with, and in the end they ended up petering out. And at that, I think that that for me marked the beginning of, this is not going to look like the way I had expected it to look. And again, hindsight is everything. What I wish I had known at the time– and I think this is really relevant to some VBAC moms is that sometimes prodromal labor means that your baby is not in the best position for having a vaginal birth. And I can't exactly say oh I would have done this or that differently if I'd known it, but it would have helped me understand what I was going into with the labor and the birth. So anyway, I eventually went into labor in the middle of the night. It was exactly my due date and I knew it was different. I could just feel this is labor. And I was really eager to get it going quickly. And again, I wish someone would have said, “Rachel, rest. It's early. You're going to need your strength. You're going to need your energy however your baby is born.” And instead I quite literally was running up and down the stairs of my house to try to push labor along. Which is, I have compassion for myself, I understand why I was doing that. What I really needed to do was get in the bath, or I don't know, lay over the birth ball. Watch a silly movie, right? The feelings I was having were real pain and I was scared. But you kind of can't run through this, especially a first labor as we all know, those take a long time, right?Meagan: Yeah. And if we were having prodromal labor, our body may be kicking into labor, but still might need some time to help that baby rotate and change positions. Rachel: Exactly, exactly. And this is the kind of education that is so missing from birth classes. And that is one reason why this kind of podcast is so helpful because that's how I learned about these different things. I didn't ever learn about them from a provider being like, “Let's talk about what will happen in your birth, and let's talk about why you had prodromal labor.”So anyway, we went to the doctors office where we met a midwife and my doula for a labor check. And I was hardly dilated, I was at a 2 but I was in extreme pain. And I have to say, I have a very, very high pain tolerance and I now know I was having back labor. Meagan: Baby's position.Rachel: Exactly. And the contractions were like boom boom boom boom. They were not, I didn't have any rest in between them. Which again, I think my baby was like I gotta get in the right position, this isn't working out, I'm freaking out, ah! Plus my mom is running around, ah! Right?Meagan: Yeah. Rachel: So we went to the hospital and I was checked in and the midwife who checked me in was like, “Oh you're actually not even 2 centimeters, you're just 1 centimeter dilated.” And they checked me because I was in so much pain I think. And I don't know that that was necessarily wrong,  but again, no one was sort of explaining, “Here's what we think is going on.” And it's partly because I believe those providers thought I was exaggerating what I was experiencing physically. They didn't know me. Well, they didn't know that I'm usually pretty stoic. They didn't know that I'm not a squeaky wheel. And I wasn't like screaming or crying or pounding. I was like quiet and I was like I'm in a lot of pain.Meagan: An intense quiet.Rachel: Intense quiet. Exactly. But that doesn't look like what we think pain looks like to people. And the fact is that people are very individual and how they express pain especially during labor where you're already kind of like leaving the regular plane of reality.Meagan: Yes. Rachel: So an important takeaway is like, even experienced providers cannot read your mind and make mistakes in assessing what's truly going on with you. And this comes up later in my second birth, but my husband now does a much better job of saying, “You might look at Rachel right now and think she looks like she's doing great, but this is what's really going on with her.” And he does that in a way that's not like he's speaking for me in a way that's annoying, but it's like I actually can't advocate for myself, I can't express this. So anyways, I asked for an epidural. They said that the anesthesiologist was busy. Which may have been true, but may have been they were trying to put me off because I was hardly dilated. And they told me to get in the birth tub. And I remember hanging over the side of the tub and staring at the clock on the wall and being like, I actually don't know if I'm going to survive this hour. I was just in so much pain. Incredible pain from back labor that was incessant. Eventually he showed up. They hooked me up to all the monitors. At that point, one of the nurses was like, “Oh, you are having monster contractions.” Like the contractions that were being measured were so intense they were going each time to the edge of what was measurable. And now that the computer said it it was like oh…Meagan: You're validated now. Rachel: Exactly. Right. And the anesthesiologist, it took him three tries to get the epidural working properly which would echo problems to come. But he did, and it took away the pain. And then I was just in the bed and kind of left there. And the nurses and the midwife did not use a peanut ball, they didn't move me around. And obviously, listen, I'm attached to the monitors. You know you cannot really move that well, the belt slips, and that increases the chances you'll have a C-section. And there are still things that can be done. It's not like you're a loaf of bread, you just lay in a bed. But they didn't do that stuff and I wasn't dilating. The nurse and doula eventually basically were like, “Well, we're going to go out for dinner and we'll be back in a few hours and we're going to give you this thing to sleep and if you haven't dilated by the time we get back you're going to have a C-section.” And at that point I was exhausted. It's evening now, I've been up since the middle of the night. I'm totally like, what is happening with this birth? No preparation; I took birth classes, I read books, no preparation suggested that this series of events could take place. I felt completely abandoned by my providers, including my doula who I was paying out of pocket. And one thing that came up at this time also was I had this colposcopy in college, like scraping of cervical cells. I didn't hide it from anybody, I was open. And the midwife said well maybe that's why you're not dilating is because of this colposcopy.Meagan: Do you think you got scar tissue?Rachel: That's what she said. And I remember at the time being like why are we only talking about this now? Why has nobody brought this up in any of the prenatal visits that I've done? And I felt blamed. This thing about your body is defective. After a few hours when the midwife and the doula came back and I rested and it was quiet, I had dilated to a 9. And I think what that's about is that I had been in too much pain to dilate. I was so frozen up and tense and also extremely scared.At this point people are like, “Oh wow.” And finally my water broke,y water hadn't broken. So you know, things are kind of continuing and I am starting to actually feel even more fear and my room is getting really crowded with people. And the midwife asks me to start pushing. And I was afraid and I was excited. They turned on the baby warmer, and they were like, “Okay, your baby is going to come out.” And I started to push but I couldn't feel what I was doing. I had no idea. And the midwife was like, “Do you have an urge to push?” And I was like, “No.” The epidural that hadn't gone well from the beginning had then come down with a very heavy hammer and I felt total numbness. It was not helpful. I needed someone to have turned it off or something, or turned it down so I could feel an urge to push and feel how to push, where to push, what muscles to use. And at a certain point I could tell something was going not right and it turned out that my baby was having heart rate decelerations. So just to sketch the scene. At this point it's 1 o'clock in the morning, I've been awake for 24 hours. I'm exhausted. My husband is exhausted. Neither of us has any idea that things could have gone like this. The midwife says I think it's time to do a C-section. And I don't disagree with her. I don't even know what to think at that point. I'm also feeling tremendous fear. I was like I'm afraid I'm going to die, I'm afraid my baby's going to die. And the overall sense in the room…and people were like, “Oh no, you're going to be fine”. And the sense in the room was that I was hysterical and I was not in my right mind. Which I wasn't in my right mind; I had been awake for a long time, I'd been trying to have this baby, nobody really told me what was going on and I felt totally unsupported. Actually, my response was completely reasonable given the circumstances and nobody really attended to that and saw that and recognized that as completely valid. Plus, I don't have evidence to stack this up absolutely, but I have since come to find out that there is a medication that some laboring women are given to help them rest and one of the side effects is an impending sense of doom. And I have a friend who had a baby at this same hospital and had the same response after having been given something to rest during her labor. I could go back and look at my records and I may do that but I'm like, well that would explain also why I had the response I did. Meagan: Mhmm.Rachel: Anyway, we go to the OR. I hunch my back for the spinal that the anesthesiologist has to do a couple of times to get it right. I'm still contracting at this point. My body is still like, Come on, let's get this baby out. Let's get this baby out. And I'm so uncomfortable. And you know that advice to not lay down flat on your back when you're pregnant, but that's what you have to do when you're in the OR. The whole thing felt like I was going to choke under my stomach and very exposed like you are in the operating room. Meagan: Yeah, it's cold and it's bright and you're very exposed. And you can't move your body normally, especially if you've had a spinal. Rachel: And also in retrospect, again I'm like I cannot believe that the first time I learned what happened in a C-section was in my C-section. I really should have at least learned about this even though it would have still been scary and I still would have been surprised. So when the OB goes to operate, he starts his incision and I say, “I felt that.” And he says, “You'll feel pressure.” And I say, “I felt that.” And he continues operating and I was not numb. I felt the operation. And according to his notes..parts of this I don't remember…but he wrote it down and my husband has also told me that I was screaming, my legs were kicking. There's no question that I was in tremendous pain. And I was moaning and it was horrible. And it was horrible for the people in the room too by the way.Meagan: I'm sure. Rachel: Right? Like it's really important to say that. My OB didn't listen to me. That is a super common thing that happens in healthcare, especially for women. Especially for pregnant women. He's not a sociopath. He didn't want to be evil, but he didn't listen and the consequences were so steep and so dire. And I think that it was traumatizing to him and I know it was traumatizing to some of the other providers in that room, the nurses to watch this. He kept going and when the baby was born, which I don't remember, apparently they held her up to my face and they put me under general anesthesia and sent my baby and my husband away and stitched me up. Then I woke up in recovery. The doula and the midwife had gotten the baby to latch while I was unconscious and were talking about me without knowing that I was awake about her latch which really, really bothered me because it just underscored how it felt like I was just a body. And even people who were supposed to be there to take care of me and be tender and advocates, I felt they disregarded me. And under other circumstances I really would have wanted to breastfeed my baby like right away. But I wasn't even there to say yes I want to do this or no I don't want to do this. It was a terrible birth and I would not wish it on anybody. Meagan: And I think, kind of talking about what you were just talking about with breastfeeding and stuff, these people in their hearts and in their minds were probably like this is what she would have wanted. We're trying to help. But in whole other frame of mind over here, I'm not present. I haven't said those things. And I know you're trying to help and I know that's where your heart is, but I'm not okay with this. Rachel: Totally.Meagan: And I think sometimes as doulas, as birth workers, as any one of you listening, remember that words matter. Actions matter. These moms' feelings matter and it's sometimes in our minds we're trying to do what's best, but it might not be. Rachel: Totally. Absolutely. Yes and I again, it's so important to point out. Yes they were coming from a good place. They really were coming from a good place. But it wasn't the way that I felt it or experienced it. Meagan: And it left you with trauma and angst and heartache. Rachel: Absolutely. Totally. Yeah. Meagan: Well that definitely sounds like a really rough birth. And it's so crazy because it's like you went from not progressing to baby in a poor position, to getting an epidural. I love that you talked about that. That can be an amazing tool. A lot of people are very against epidurals, and there are pros and cons with epidurals. We've talked about those. Fetal heart decels is one of them. I don't think, maybe in this situation it sounds like a lot of other things happened; baby's position being one of the biggest ones. But that can really be a tool that helps you just relax and be more present and have less trauma. We talk about this in my doula practice of where there's a difference between pain and suffering. And pain, progressive positive pain that's bringing our baby to us that's one thing. But when we're suffering and we're so tense that our body's not even able to try; that epidural could come into great play. But again, we're not that loaf of bread in a bed and it is important to move and rotate. And it doesn't have to be drastic. It doesn't have to be crazy big movements. Just subtle movements to change the dynamics of the pelvis and to encourage our baby to keep coming down. So there were so many things that just went poorly but also went well, and then poorly again and then well and then real poorly there at the end. Rachel: And I think like to your point, I went into my birth I should say, I was planning on having an unmedicated vaginal birth. I was like I'm not going to have an epidural. And I think that if my providers had different skills I would have, I may have been able to have that baby vaginally. And I say that based on what happened in my second birth. So it's not just like wishful thinking, right? And I'm really glad I had that epidural. I really needed that. I was suffering. The pain I was experiencing was not productive pain. And an epidural can help you with suffering, alleviate your suffering. But it can't and doesn't substitute for emotional support. And I think that's what was missing for me, throughout that first birth. Even if I had gone on to have ok fine, a cesarean, or even a vaginal birth, I still think I would have been like that wasn't a good birth because I didn't feel emotionally supported. And an epidural can't do that. Meagan: Yeah. No an epidural cannot do that. And I, for anyone listening who supports birth, or even who are going for a birth you kind of mentioned it. You're in this other land and sometimes it's hard to advocate and open. You might be thinking something and you might so badly want to say it. It's right here, coming out. And you can't say it for whatever reason. It's a weird thing, it doesn't make sense sometimes but it can happen. But really being heard, validated, understood; which are so many things you weren't. Right? And when we're not heard and when we don't feel safe, and we don't feel supported, those things leave us with PTSD. In fact there was, in your book, I'm just going to read it. It says, “2022 study by anesthesiology and obstetrics professor Joanna and colleagues found that what's important about women who feel pain during childbirth is how mothers feel about their pain. And how their providers communicate with them overall…”You were communicating, and no one was communicating to you. “...feeling positively about pain and heard by providers protects a mother from developing PTSD.” And I mean it goes on which is why you need to get the book so you can read more about it. Rachel: Yep. Meagan: But really, feeling heard. Rachel: It's not just crunchy whoo-hoo feels good, feels right, sounds good. It really matters. And I have to say that I'm participating in and helping to work with providers on designing some studies about providing different pain options for moms during C-sections. We literally had a conversation about this yesterday. And one of things we were talking about is it's not just the pain. It's not just pain relief. It's also being listened to. Because there will be people who are like, I might say I'm in pain, but that doesn't mean I need an epidural or want an epidural. But I'm feeling pain and I want to be heard and I want somebody to…even if you can't express this. You can't even express it because you're the one having labor. What you're needing is someone to see you and look you in the eye and be like you're going to be okay. And I think as mothers we totally are experienced with that all the time. When your child is hurt or sick, part of your job obviously is to get them the help they need, but it's also to assure them this nosebleed is going to end. You're not going to have a bloody nose for the rest of your life. Which, when you're going through something really hard you can sometimes forget, right? And you're pointing out from the studies this helps to prevent people in birth, in labor, from developing PTSD. The stakes are really high. They matter so much. Meagan: When you were just talking, I don't know if you saw my eyes kind of well up a little, but I connected a lot with my first birth when I was clinging to a bed, literally clinging. And I was looking at my husband and I'm like, “Do something!” I had a baby in a poor position. I was being jacked full of pitocin. My water had broken, there was a lot of discomfort going on. I had told him I didn't want an epidural and he's like what do you want me to do? And I was like I don't know, I just need something! And I was terrified and desperate. And he was just like… It wasn't fair for me to put him in that position either but at the same time he was like I don't know, I don't know what to do, right? And the nurses were just like we'll just get you an epidural. And I was like no, I don't want an epidural. And then it just was like epidural, just went down from there. And I wish so badly that there was something else. Let's get you out of the bed. Let's get you in the shower. Let's give you some nitrous. There was so much more that I could have had, but wasn't even offered. And I think too, I needed someone to tell me that nosebleed was going to end. Rachel: Yes. Meagan: And it was going to end and it was going to come back every five minutes and it was going to end again and I was going to be okay. And I was going to survive that. And just hearing you talk about that, why my eyes got all welly, is that I don't know if I realized how much that impacted me until just barely. And here I am, my daughter is almost 13.Rachel: Just like how powerful these things that, I don't know, this is part of why we have these conversations. They shed different corners of light on our experiences that it's like oh my gosh, I didn't even know I knew that. And that's so why we, even though I'm not postpartum immediately, it's valuable for me to talk about it too; to hear what you're saying, you know?Meagan: Yeah. Ah, so after a not-so-amazing experience, going into that postpartum, you've talked a little bit about that in your book. Well, not a little bit, you've talked about that a lot. Tell us about that journey and then what led you to deciding on VBAC and ultimately going and having a VBAC. Rachel: So I should say, I was really…Talk about not realizing things right away. It took me a long time to figure out how traumatized I had been by that birth. And I was about two years postpartum and I was having a procedure for something else and I just completely, I had a panic attack. I had never had a panic attack before, I didn't know what it was and couldn't have explained what was happening. And when the anesthesiologist who did this procedure was like have you ever had any issues with anesthesia, which is exactly the question that should be asked, and I had said what had happened he was so taken aback. He was shocked and didn't know what to say and walked out of the room.Not in the way of, I'm abandoning my patient, but just like from his perspective here's this kind of routine thing. This patient is crying and shaking and talking about this very traumatic incident which I had not talked about. I didn't go to therapy. I had talked about it with friends and my family, it wasn't a secret, but I felt a lot of shame. I felt like I must have been this total freak of a person that this had happened to me. And after that I remember saying to my husband, I just don't know if I'm ever going to be able to get over this trauma enough to have another baby. And I didn't even know if I wanted another baby, like separate from the trauma. In therapy I started to see that I felt very stuck in my life and that included how and whether to grow my family. And that was actually because of the traumatic birth. It just like made this big block. I think one thing that's important to think about for those who have had a traumatic birth is that sometimes that can show up in your life in ways that you don't expect. Meagan: Yes. Rachel: And so to be compassionate with yourself about that and also to be open to that. We're in the era of warnings and trigger warnings and those are important, but sometimes for a traumatized person the things that are triggering or activating are not what you would think. Like for me, I couldn't watch a scene of a hospital birth even if it was happy without getting very uncomfortable and having to walk away and there wouldn't be a content warning on that. So it's just to say be patient with yourself. Accept that…don't, I guess if you've had a traumatizing birth you don't have to struggle against these things. As horrible as they might feel, as uncomfortable as they might feel it's normal and it's ok and it shows up differently for everybody. Rachel: Yeah so I had this big question and then I was like ok, it took awhile for me to be like I do want to have another baby. But I wasn't ready emotionally. And so I waited. And then about, let's see, October of 2019, I was like I think that I'm ready to try to have another baby. And we had met this midwife who lived in our community, who my daughter actually made friends with her niece at our public pool which is so beautiful. I ran into her one night while she was walking her dog. She was like your husband shared a little bit with me, if you ever want to talk. And this, I feel like, I could not be more grateful that this person came into my life. She just is, her skills are phenomenal. Just as a clinician in terms of trauma-informed care, and I've felt safe enough going to her for prenatal care to decide that I was ready to get pregnant. My joke is that I should tour high schools and be like it only takes once to have unprotected sex to become a parent. And I was really lucky that I got pregnant right away and at that point I was 37. So I should say I had my first baby at 33 and I got pregnant again at 37. And that's not always the case for people. Obviously it can take a long time and especially after a C-section, secondary infertility is real. Meagan: It is. Rachel: Yeah. Not talked about enough. Really not talked about enough. Meagan: There's a lot of things, right, about C-sections that is not discussed about. For personal, for the mom, for the individual, the infertility, adhesions, all those things. Just the emotional and the physical. Then even the baby. There's risks for the baby, the allergies, the microbiome getting messed up. All the risks, it's just not discussed. Rachel: No, it's really not. And you kind of only find out later if you've had a C-section and you've had a problem down the road that you're like, maybe that's because of my C-section. It's ridiculous.So we got pregnant and I was not sure if I wanted to have a VBAC, but I started thinking about it from the beginning. And I also was like, if I don't have a VBAC how am I ever going to get myself into an OR, I just don't know. And I really think that VBAC is the under-discussed pain point for moms. And I'm preaching to the choir here but we're talking about half a million moms every year have to make this decision, if it's even available to them. Meagan: I was going to say, if it's even offered. Rachel: If it's even offered. Which is totally not a given. But theoretically, they do have this decision and I really have not…I should say, in the course of writing this book, but also just being a mom who had a bad C-section and then had a VBAC, I hear from people a lot about their journeys just like on the playground. Every person I've talked to, they agonize over it. No matter what they choose, no matter what. Why is that not talked about more? I mean that part of what this podcast is doing that's so important, but I still can't believe how under the radar it is, yet it's such a big deal when you're going through it. So anyway, I told myself I did not have to decide right away about a VBAC or a C-section. My midwife was like you can totally have a VBAC, you can totally have a C-section. Even if you have a C-section you can keep seeing me. I was worried like oh would I get bumped out of midwifery care. One of the things I'm really fortunate about and that I think is really good about that practice is that she has a very close relationship with one of the OB's there. Like they kind of share patients, I should say that. And that's because she's worked with him for a long time and he really respects her clinical skills and vice versa. The other thing about her that's unique and that I didn't know how important it is she's a Certified Nurse Midwife, so she attends births in the hospital. But she previously had been a homebirth practice and at a birth center as a CNM. So her skills are, like I said are phenomenal. A C-section is truly like we have to do this. I've run out of my bag of skills or like the baby or mom's health suggests that like we need to do this now. She worked with me to work with the scheduler so that I saw her for every visit which helped me to learn how to trust her and she didn't pressure me. Either way she was completely open. She also worked with me to make sure that I could see her for virtually every visit so that way she earned my trust. And I got to show her who I am. She got to understand me which was really important to the birth. Meagan: Yes, which I want to point out. There are a lot of providers these days that are working in groups. And I understand why they're working in groups. They're overworked, definitely not rested. There's reasons why, both midwives and OBGYNs are working in these big practices. But the thing is it's really nice to have that established relationship but for some reason specially for VBAC it's so important to have that one-on-one relationship. So if you can, during your search for finding providers, if you can find a provider that is going to be like Rachel's midwife where she's just like I want to get to know you, I want to establish this relationship. Yes, we have this OB over here but I want to be your person. I definitely think it's impactful.Rachel: I totally agree with you and I didn't even know that was possible. And she works for a big group and even so she told the schedulers, hey make sure you schedule her with me. She didn't just do that with me by the way, it wasn't just a special favor for this traumatized patient. And frankly it's better for the providers too because they're not coming in cold. Like ok who's this person, and she's saying this. And what's her prenatal care like? What's her pregnancy like? Of course they're looking at the notes, but it's not the same. Meagan: It isn't. And I love that she said that. But I also want to point out that you can request that. If you're in a group and you can connect whole-heartedly with someone and you feel it's definitely who you need, it's ok to ask hey. I know that I am supposed to meet Sarah Jane and Sally, but can I stay with whoever. And maybe you might not get every visit, but if you can get more visits than only that one? It's worth asking. Rachel: Totally. And also then you know their style. So like she was not an alarmist. Let's say I was over 35; I had to see a MFM just because of my age. That went fine, but if something had come up, like let's say I had a short cervix or there was something I found in an appointment with an MFM specialist I would know her well enough to take that to her to be like, put it to me straight. How worried should I be about this? As opposed to maybe this one's an alarmist, this one is more like ahh let me put this in…And the only way you're going to learn about that is from meeting with them again and again. And for VBAC that's so so important. Meagan: It is. It kind of reminds me of dating. It's weird. I had said this with my provider when I didn't switch. I was like, I feel like I'm breaking up with him. Like he's my second boyfriend, it's just weird. It's not really boyfriend but you know what I mean. But it is, we're dating them. And anyone, in my opinion, can come off really great for that first date because they're wanting to make that impression. They're wanting you to like them. But the more you get to know them, the more they may show their true colors. And you also may realize, I don't think I'm the right person for you. My desires aren't something that aligns with you and so I don't want to put you in this situation. And so if we date our providers, “date our providers,” a little bit more than just one time it really will help us know. And like you said, if something were to come up you could have that trusted person in your corner, which is so important for VBAC, that you can go to. Rachel: Totally. Yeah. So yeah, so pregnancy went well. And then right as I entered my third trimester it started to be COVID. Meagan: Mhmmm. The joys. Rachel: Nobody saw that coming. And then you know, things for the entire society obviously went completely off the rails. Obviously something like COVID is, we hope, not even once in a generation. Once in a hundred years experience. But given all the stuff that was up in the air, boy was I glad that there was one provider who I trusted. Who I could be like ok what do I do, what do I do. And I have to tell you that she and my daughter's pediatrician…I'm a professor. So I should say I'm in the classroom with young people who, you get sick a lot anyways. They're living in dorms, like they're not taking the best care of themselves. So COVID was circulating, and we live right outside New York City, COVID was circulating early here and I have a lot of colleagues that ended up getting it. And both my midwife and my child's pediatrician told me early you need to stop going in person, it's too dangerous for you. And I trust my daughter's pediatrician a lot, you know we have a nice relationship and I really trusted my midwife. Right? So I followed that advice and was really fortunate because boy. You know what you don't want while pregnant? COVID. And you know what you really didn't want? COVID in 2020 when you were pregnant and nobody knew anything, you know?Meagan: Right? Rachel: So, the blessing in disguise was that I was able to work from home. And it was super stressful because I had my daughter and my husband was here and you know, my husband is a photographer…I mean the funny thing is that I ended up, not my head but my body, being in these different photos he ended up taking and my belly was getting bigger and bigger and we kind of had to hide it. I'd be holding a book, or cleaning something. It was an absurd, crazy, isolating, scary, and also funny time. You know the blessing in disguise was that I wasn't on my feet as much and I think that that was really good for me as a pregnant person. There is also data that preterm birth went down during the lockdowns because people got to stay home and they don't necessarily get to do that leading up to birth, which tells us a lot about what we need and the rest we need and aren't getting. So anyway, at first everything went virtual and then when I started going in again for my appointments I had met the OB who works closely with my midwife. And we talked about what would happen if I went over 40 weeks. And he was like well, we're not going to automatically schedule a C-section, we would talk about potentially waiting or induction. And I really appreciated having that conversation with him because I understood where he was coming from and it wasn't again like we're going to schedule a C-section right now. So we know if you get to 40+3 and you haven't had the baby, bing bang boom. And that was very important information about his risk tolerance and his stance. Just like with my first birth I went into prodromal labor a few days before my due date. I had had a membrane sweep with my midwife. My in-laws came to stay with my daughter and we went to the hospital on a Saturday night. I didn't know this but my father-in-law told my husband I think she's getting ahead of her skis. And he was right in the end. So we get to the hospital and my contractions stop. And I'm like oh no. And my midwife was like, they put me on the monitor to get a strip which is like you know, what happens. Meagan: Normal.Rachel: And my midwife was like listen, your baby, he's not looking that good on the monitor. I want you to rest for a little bit and let's see. So I'll check back in with you in like half an hour. And I was so upset. I remember being like I can totally see where this is going to go and I had learned about VBAC in terms of like what could increase the chance of rupture or not and I was like I'm going to end up with another C-section and I'm going to be caught in the net. I didn't even have a shot, is what I felt. And then she came back half an hour later and she was like, “He looks great. I think he was just sleeping, and if you want to go home you can go home.”  And it was like 1 o'clock in the morning. And I was like, “I think we should go home.” I just felt like he's not ready. He's not ready to be born.  And remember, I trusted her so much. She would not tell me this if she thought that there was something…Meagan: If there was something wrong. Rachel: Exactly. She wasn't trying to be my friend. She was my provider. And so it felt really weird to leave and come home and not have a baby. And I thought was this the wrong thing to do, because I live like half an hour from the hospital, and was like no this is it.And then everything was quiet for a few days. And then just like my first labor, my daughter, I went into labor in the middle of the night and I had intense back labor, and I knew like this is the real deal, here we are. And this time I tried to rest. I did like cat/cow and just like anything, child's pose, just anything to feel more comfortable. And I called my midwife at 7 in the morning and she was like, “Okay, I want you to come in and be prepared to go into the hospital from this appointment.” So we did that and at that appointment, I had a headache, I had higher blood pressure, I was dilated to a 6, and she said to me, “Listen. Just so you know, they're not going to let you go home. You're going to the hospital, no matter what if your contractions stop or not whatever. This is what's happening because of how dilated you are, the fact that you have this headache, this BP readings, whatever.” And I was like that's completely reasonable, I felt that way too. You know what I mean? But I really appreciated she communicated that with me so clearly and explained why. So I planned initially to try to have an unmedicated, vaginal birth. My midwife and I had discussed these saline boluses you can have in your, by your, what's it called. Like the triangular bone in your back? I'm totally blanking. Meagan: Your sacrum?Rachel: The sacrum. Yeah, that that can alleviate some pain. And very quickly the pain was, I found it to be unbearable. And I asked for an epidural. And the anaesthesiologist came right away and did a very good job. And the nurses and the midwife who were at the hospital were using a peanut ball and helping me move and really supportive emotionally. And I was still really scared, right? Because I had had this terrible birth before, I thought something would happen to me. And nobody treated me like I was exaggerating or you know like, unreasonable. And that mattered a lot. And I think what's important is you shouldn't have to have gone through a bad birth for people then to take you at face value. With your first birth, it should be the standard for everybody. Meagan: Such a powerful saying right there. Rachel: And they were wonderful, truly, clinically and beside.Meagan: Good.Rachel: And then my midwife surprised me by showing up. She was not on call, she came in at like 9 o'clock, no she came in at like 5 o'clock, like once she'd seen her patients and I was just like oh my god,  so moved to see her. And you know, I was pretty far along at that point and she kind of helped me get into different positions and then it was like okay, it was time to push. And they had managed that epidural so I could feel when it was time to push, and I could feel how she and the nurse were telling me to like push here, right? Like use this, make this go. The pain was really intense but it wasn't suffering, like okay, I'm getting instruction. And as I was pushing I could feel that it wasn't going to work. I was like he's not, his head…I could just feel it. Apparently he was kind of coming and kind of going back up, like his head forward and back. And my midwife was like do I have permission from you to try and move his head? I think his head is not in the best position. And I said yes, and she tried to do it and she couldn't. Her fingers weren't strong enough and then she went to the OB and she told me this later.She said to him can you come and move his head? He'd been trained by midwives in the military, by the way, which is one reason his clinical skills are so amazing.Meagan: That's awesome. Okay.Rachel: Awesome. And at first he apparently was like, oh she's a VBAC, like I can't believe you're asking me to do this. And my midwife, again they trust each other right, and she was like the baby's doing great and the mom's doing great. I really think this is going to work. And he was like okay. So he came in, asked my permission, I said yes and he moved my son's head. My water had not broken again, right? So it's like the same thing as the first one. And once he got in position and I started pushing my water broke in an explosion all over my midwife. That's why they wear goggles, now I know. And she went and changed her clothes. I pushed for 45 minutes and then he came out.Meagan: Oh my gosh. Rachel: It was amazing and I felt so proud and I was completely depleted. I was so high and also so low. And I think what's amazing to me is that it was almost the same labor as my daughter, which just tells me that's how my body tends to do.Meagan: Your pelvis. And some babies need to enter posterior or even in a weird position to actually get down. So that can happen. Rachel: Thank you. And also my water didn't break until the very end so there was buoyancy to be moved, right? And again who knows what would have happened if I had been with this provider the first time. Like maybe these decels really meant that my daughter had to come out like then. That is possible. And that first team did not have the skills of the second team. None of this was even brought up, wasn't even a possibility. And I should say that first birth, I didn't even mention this. The OB that gave me that C-section, later told me that my daughter's head was kind of cocked when he took her out. Which suggests that it was just like my son. And how I'm grateful for my epidural. I'm grateful for, you know, all the things that technological kept me safe, but it was these skills of facilitating vaginal birth that made the difference for me to have that VBAC. Meagan: Absolutely. And the hardest thing for me is seeing that these skills are being lost. Rachel: Yes.Meagan: Or maybe it's not that they're being lost, they're being ignored. And I don't know which one it is. I really don't know because I see people using them. So I feel like it's got to be there. But then I go to other births and I'm like, wait what? You're not going to do anything to help her right here? Or you know, it probably could have been a vaginal birth if we had a provider come in and be like we have  a little asynclitic head, why don't we change into this position and let me see if I can just ever so slightly help this baby's head turn. It just isn't even offered. Rachel: Yes. Meagan: And that's something that I think needs to be added to questions for your provider. In the event that my baby is really low and coming vaginally, but is in a wonky position, what do you do to help my babys' position change to help me have a vaginal birth. And then even further what steps do you take past then if it doesn't work and my baby's so slow. Do we do assisted delivery? What do we do, let's have this conversation. So if it does come up, you're aware. Rachel: I love that. Meagan: I was going to say if your provider says, I don't know/I don't really help, then maybe that's not your right provider. Rachel: And I think what's so smart about that framing is that it's not putting the provider on the defensive of like, what's your training, right? Then it's like, what is your problem? But you're actually asking about their skills and you're asking about their approach, without coming from a place of seeming doubt. Just like, I'm just curious. Meagan: Yeah. Like what could I expect if this were to happen, especially if in the past. Say your C-section was failure to descend, mostly based off on position, we know that this is a big thing. But if your past cesarean was failure to descend, ask those questions to your provider. What steps can you take? What steps can we do together, you and I, to help this baby come out vaginally? Rachel: Totally. And I think also, that way, let's say the VBAC doesn't work out, you won't then be looking back over your shoulder and being like I should of/could of/why didn't I/if only. And you know, what do you want out of your birth experience? Well a lot, but part of it is a sense of peace. Right? That I did the best that I could. That my team did the best that they could.Meagan: Yes. Yeah and really interviewing your provider. Again, dating your provider and asking them the questions, learning more about them and what they do and their view. Taking out the yes and no questions and really trying to get to know this provider and letting them get to know you. I think it's just so impactful. I also, kind of like what you were saying with your first birth, also learning the other types of birth that could happen, you know learning about assisted birth. This is a new thing. Learning if assisted birth trumps a cesarean for you. Would you rather go for an assisted birth, even if it may end in cesarean, would you rather attempt that? Or would you just rather skip that and go right to the cesarean. Really educating yourself and trying not to push off the scary even though it can be scary. Rachel: Yes, yes. I love that you're saying this and I was just thinking about this and talking about this with a friend; there's stuff we hope doesn't happen. But not talking about it or thinking about it isn't going to protect us from it happening, it's just going to mean you're not prepared. Meagan: Yeah.Rachel: If it does happen. And yeah. Meagan: It's a disservice to ourselves. And it's weird. And it's hard to hear those stories. It's hard to hear the CBAC stories, it's hard to hear the uterine rupture stories that we do share on this podcast. Kind of what you're talking about the trigger warnings earlier, yeah it might be a trigger. It really might. But if we know all the signs of uterine rupture leading up to, we can be aware. And it's not something to hyperfocus on. We don't want it to be like oh my gosh I have this weird pain, right now, I don't know. It's not to make you scared, it really isn't. It's to just help you feel educated. Kind of what you were saying too. I don't know what a C-section looked like until I was in my own C-section. Rachel: Yeah. I've been talking about this recently with an anesthesiologist, some anti-anxiety medicine which you might get during a C-section, can cause memory loss. That's a side effect. So the time to decide…Let's say you're not planning on having a C-section. And then you're having a C-section and you're really anxious, really reasonable. The time to decide whether to take that anti-anxiety medicine which might cause memory loss; you should have an opportunity to reflect on that and talk about that  and think about that not only in the moment when you're scared and should I take it right now or not. Meagan: Yeah.Rachel: It's just like that's not a good way to make a decision, you know?Meagan: Yeah. And also learning about alternatives. Okay, these are the side effects of this medication, and I don't think I'm willing to accept that. So let's talk about other medications and those side effects so we can see if we can switch it up.  They have a whole bunch of things in their toolbox when it comes to medication. Rachel: Exactly. Meagan: For nausea. You know I had a medication and it affected my chest. It went all the way into my chest and I had to consciously focus on my chest moving. It was the weirdest feeling. Rachel: Terrifying, yeah. Meagan: I wish I would have known the alternatives to that. Right? So having these educated discussions, learning as much as you can. It's hard and it's scary and it's intimidating to not learn what you don't want. It's understandable, too.Rachel: Completely, completely. But that's informed consent, right? The risks, the benefits, the alternatives. And to go back to the anti-anxiety thing. You might be like okay, what could you do for me non-pharmacologically? Let's say I have a C-section and I'm feeling really anxious. Can I have a doula with me there who's giving me a massage? Can I have a doula there who's maybe put some lavender essence on a washcloth to hold to my nose. Can the anesthesiologist hold my hand and tell me it's going to be okay? And then you start actually opening up real options. Like wow I can have a doula with me?Meagan: Yes. That is something that I am very passionate about. We need to get doulas in the OR way more than we are. And I understand that it's like oh we don't have PPE, or oh it's an extra body, and oh it's a very big surgery, like I understand that. But I have been in the OR a good handful of times. And I understand my position in that room. I understand and respect my position in that room. And I always let an anesthesiologist know, if at any point something happens where I need to leave this room you just tell me. I will leave. No questions asked. But please let me be here with my client. Please let me stroke her hair. Please let me talk to her when dad goes over to baby so she's not alone. When you were put under general anesthesia to be there by your side, whether or not you were waking up in the OR. Because sometimes you could wake up sooner, or waking up in post-operative. Let's get these people here. Let's play music. Let's talk to them. Let's communicate the birth.I mean with my first C-section, they were complaining about the storm outside, they weren't even talking to me, right? And it would have impacted my birth in such a more positive light if I would have been talked to. And I wouldn't have felt like, what's going on. You know and all those things, you talked about it in your book. This drape that is separating us from our birth, it's just wild. So one of the questions we ask when you sign up to be on the podcast is topics of discussion that you would like to share, and one of those things is you said, why it's important to balance preparation for VBAC with an understanding of the systemic forces that promote C-sections. We're kind of talking about that, but do you have anything else to say on that? Rachel: I think that there is so much self-blame for having a C-section, when you wanted to have a vaginal birth. And go back to pain and suffering, that causes suffering. And it's heartbreaking to see that and to feel that. And when I think about it, I think what's important to keep in mind is like there are the particulars of your experience, right? Like your providers had the skills or didn't. They listened or they didn't. Your baby had decels or didn't. Like all that is real. And you're not the first or only person any of that is happening to. So why are we hooked up to electronic fetal monitoring, EFM, as soon as we walk into the hospital? Well that is because of how technology reigns supreme right now in every aspect of our society, but medicine too. And also that like it's an efficient system and medical birth, medicalized birth is all about efficiency and making as much money as possible frankly. Meagan: And there's even deeper history, we talk about that in our VBAC course, about why that was happening around cerebral palsy and what it actually did for cerebral palsy rates. All of these things. It's pretty fascinating when you get into it and understand one, why they do it and does it work? Does it make sense? They do it and just became practice and norm, but it did it actually impact the things that, okay how do I say this. Does it impact the things that they were originally creating it to impact? Rachel: Right. Totally. And it's actually the opposite; it was supposed to bring down the number of C-section rates, or the number of C-sections, when the number was like 4.5% in the early seventies and it's just gone in the opposite direction.There's so much evidence that you use it and it makes you more likely to have a C-section. And so yeah, okay, not your fault. That's the system. And I don't mean it in this way like, that's the system, give up, lay down, don't try to make your own feet, but also just to accept that that's what you're operating in and that's what your providers are operating in too. Right? Use it as a way to let go of the guilt and the shame and the, I messed up. My body messed up. Meagan: Yeah. Because there's so many of us that feel that. Rachel: Yes. Meagan: And it goes into the next topic they were saying that I think really can help us walk away with less of, I messed up. My body messed up. My baby failed me. You know whatever it may be. And doing effective research about the hospitals and their employment patterns and the chances of you even having a VBAC. That does kind of go into the balls in our court where we have to get the education and understand. But even when we do that, even when we don't have the best experience, in the end we're still going to look back at it as we did, WE did, the best we could. Right? And it takes less of that blame on us in a way because we know we did everything we could. Rachel: Yes.Meagan: And sometimes it just still happens. Even if you have the doula. Take the VBAC course. Read all the VBAC books, listen to all the podcasts, understand all the risks. Sometimes it still happens. Rachel: Totally. And I mean I think about in my case, like let's say my midwife hadn't come in for me and my OB hadn't been the one who had been attending that night, maybe I would have had a C-section. Because maybe the people there wouldn't have known how to effectively move my son's head. Even though I like did my best and that's okay. It has to be okay because you can't kind of change it. And again, not to be defeat-ist. But to find peace, just to find peace. Meagan: Yeah. I wish that for our VBAC community is finding peace and giving ourselves grace along our journeys. Because we've had 100's of podcast stories and there are so many of us who are still searching for peace. And still not offering ourselves grace, and putting that blame on us, or whatever, right? Everyone's so different and again, we talked about this earlier, it's just different. But I would love to see our community offering themselves more grace and finding more peace with their experiences along the way. And I don't exactly know what that healing looks like and how that peace is found. Do you have any suggestions on ways you have found peace with a very very very traumatic experience that not only led to trauma in that experience, but even in future procedures, in future experiences you know. Do you have any tips on just, guidance on finding peace? Rachel: I mean, I struggle with this still. And it sounds counterintuitive, but I think like not pushing away your feelings. And in the sense of not wallowing, but also not like struggling against them, trying to quiet them, make them be like ugh I hate this. Ugh I hate that I feel this way. Ugh if only I could get over it. So I'll say like, when I go to the doctor now, I get really scared especially if it's a new person and my blood pressure goes up and sometimes my heart rate goes up and it just sort of happens. And I hate it. And there are times when I'm like ugh I hate this part of me. I just hate it.But then when I'm kind of more accepting and it's like, this is how my body responds. It's understandable that this is how my body responds. And I take a Xanax actually. I say that to really take away the stigma I think that still exists around medical trauma and taking medication to manage your symptoms. I take a low dose Xanax before I go to see a provider and it helps me with my suffering. And also just like accepting. Because also there's this saying, if you struggle against the feelings of suffering, then you kind of suffer twice over. Right?Meagan: You do. Rachel: So I would say that, and then specifically for people who feel they had a traumatic experience, I've found EMDR treatment to be very effective, to deal with stuff in the body. That was pioneered more to deal with people who've been in like combat trauma, but it's very effective for traumatic birth. Tapping is another thing that can be very effective. And you can find that online, like there are different…Meagan: I was gonna say, you can go to YouTube and google trauma tapping or anything like that, and you can actually find some pretty great videos for free on how to do that. And it's pretty wild actually how well it works. Rachel: It really is. Meagan: Sometimes it's like wait, how is this working? It really does work. Rachel: Totally. And also I would say like in terms of again, peace, I think it's really important to speak openly about what has happened to you. And to the extent possible, we're conditioned to be like I'm just going to tie this up with a bow and it's okay. Someone says to you, you've expressed something hard, and they're like oh I'm so sorry and you're like it's okay, I'm going to be okay. Like you don't have to worry so much about reassuring your listener. You can be like yeah I had this C-section, and I'm still kind of upset about it. And yeah, that's how I feel. You don't have to self-qualify that. You know, but my baby is healthy. But I'm okay. But I love my baby. We do that; there's a lot of pressure to do that. And it's okay not to do that. It's okay to be like these are my feelings. And two things can be true at the same time. You can love your baby, and you can also be like I'm not that thrilled with the birth. Meagan: Awe yes. Julie and I have talked about that for years. They don't have to be separate. They can go together. You can love your baby and feel connected to your baby and really not like your birth experience. And you can also, we have found that people prep and then they have a vaginal birth and they're like I actually didn't really like that either. So you know, they don't have to just always be separate. You can be really happy and really be upset at the same time. It's okay to have those feelings, right? I have had things in my life where I've done something and I'm like dang. I really like how it turned out, but I hated the journey to getting there. And that's okay. So I love that you pointed that out. Rachel: Yes. or if you think about how you feel on your children's birthdays. So like I have very different feelings on my daughter's birthdays then my son's birthday. I had a good birth with my son. And it was good not because it was a VBAC, but because I was respected and I felt safe. That's what made that a good birth. Right? Just to be totally clear. I'm really glad I had a VBAC, I'm happy I got what

“Today's Morocco is a prime example of what a great peaceful coexistence and international cooperation can be with an Arab country.” Eli Gabay, an Israeli-born lawyer and current president of the oldest continuously active synagogue in the United States, comes from a distinguished family of Jewish leaders who have fostered Jewish communities across Morocco, Israel, and the U.S. Now residing in Philadelphia, Eli and his mother, Rachel, share their deeply personal story of migration from Morocco to Israel, reflecting on the resilience of their family and the significance of preserving Jewish traditions. The Gabay family's commitment to justice and heritage is deeply rooted. Eli, in his legal career, worked with Israel's Ministry of Justice, where he notably helped prosecute John Ivan Demjanjuk, a Cleveland auto worker accused of being the notorious Nazi death camp guard, "Ivan the Terrible." Jessica Marglin, Professor of Religion, Law, and History at the University of Southern California, offers expert insights into the Jewish exodus from Morocco. She explores the enduring relationship between Morocco's Jewish community and the monarchy, and how this connection sets Morocco apart from its neighboring countries. —- Show notes: How much do you know about Jewish history in the Middle East? Take our quiz. Sign up to receive podcast updates. Learn more about the series. Song credits:  Pond5:  “Desert Caravans”: Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI), Composer: Tiemur Zarobov (BMI), IPI#1098108837 “Suspense Middle East” Publisher: Victor Romanov, Composer: Victor Romanov; Item ID: 196056047 ___ Episode Transcript: ELI GABAY: Standing in court and saying ‘on behalf of the State of Israel' were the proudest words of my life. It was very meaningful to serve as a prosecutor. It was very meaningful to serve in the IDF.  These were highlights in my life, because they represented my core identity: as a Jew, as a Sephardic Jew, as an Israeli Sephardic Jew. These are the tenets of my life. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: The world has overlooked an important episode in modern history: the 800,000 Jews who left or were driven from their homes in the Middle East and North Africa in the mid-20th century. Welcome to the second season of The Forgotten Exodus, brought to you by American Jewish Committee. This series explores that pivotal moment in history and the little-known Jewish heritage of Iran and Arab nations. As Jews around the world confront violent antisemitism and Israelis face daily attacks by terrorists on multiple fronts, our second season explores how Jews have lived throughout the region for generations – despite hardship, hostility, and hatred–then sought safety and new possibilities in their ancestral homeland. I'm your host, Manya Brachear Pashman. Join us as we explore untold family histories and personal stories of courage, perseverance, and resilience from this transformative and tumultuous period of history for the Jewish people and the Middle East.  The world has ignored these voices. We will not. This is The Forgotten Exodus.  Today's episode: leaving Morocco. MANYA: There are three places Eli Gabay calls home: Philadelphia, the city where he has raised his children; Morocco, the land where his parents Rachel and Amram were born and his ancestors lived for generations; and Israel, his birthplace and original ancestral homeland. Eli has been on a quest to honor all those identities since he left Israel at the age of 12. ELI: On my father's side, they were all rabbis. On my mother's side, they were all businesspeople who headed synagogues. And so, my grandfather had a synagogue, and my other grandfather had a synagogue. When they transplanted to Israel, they reopened these synagogues in the transition camp in Be'er Sheva. Both families had a synagogue of their own. MANYA: For the past five years, Eli has served as president of his synagogue--the historic Congregation Mikveh Israel, America's oldest continuous synagogue, founded in Philadelphia in 1740. Descended from a long line of rabbis going back generations, Eli is a litigation attorney, the managing partner of a law firm, a former prosecutor, and, though it might seem odd, the Honorary Consul of the Republic of Nicaragua in Philadelphia. But the professional role that has brought him the most acclaim was his time in the 1980s, working for Israel's Ministry of Justice, decades after the Holocaust, still trying to hold its perpetrators accountable. CLIP - ‘THE DEVIL NEXT DOOR' TRAILER: Charges were filed today against John Demjanjuk, the 66-year-old Ukrainian native, who's accused of being a Nazi death camp guard named Ivan the Terrible. The crimes he was accused of… MANYA: We'll tell you more about that later. But first, we take you to the Jerusalem Israeli Gift Shop in northeast Philadelphia, a little slice of Israel on the corner of Castor Avenue and Chandler Street. [shofar sounds] Every day, amid the menorahs and shofars, frames and mezuzahs, Eli's 84-year-old mother Rachel Gabay, the family matriarch and owner of thisJudaica shop, is transported back to the place where she grew up: Israel. ELI: My father was a teacher all his life, and my mother [shofar sounds] runs a Jewish Judaica store that sells shofars, you can hear in the background. RACHEL: It's my baby. The store here became my baby. CUSTOMER: You're not going to remember this, but you sold us our ketubah 24 years ago. RACHEL: Yeah. How are you, dear? ELI: Nice. CUSTOMER: We're shopping for someone else's wedding now. RACHEL: Oh, very nice… For who? CUSTOMER: A friend of ours, Moshe, who is getting married and we wanted to get him a mezuzah. MANYA: For Rachel, Israel represents the safety, security, and future her parents sought for her when in 1947 they placed her on a boat to sail away from Morocco. By then, Casablanca had become a difficult place to be Jewish. Israel offered a place to belong. And for that, she will always be grateful. RACHEL: To be a Jew, to be very good… ELI: Proud. RACHEL: Proud. I have a country, and I am somebody. ELI: My father's family comes from the High Atlas Mountains, from a small village called Aslim.The family arrived in that area sometime in 1780 or so. There were certain events that went on in Morocco that caused Jews from the periphery and from smaller cities to move to Casablanca. Both my parents were born in Morocco in Casablanca. Both families arrived in Casablanca in the early 30s, mid 30s. MANYA: Today, the port city of Casablanca is home to several synagogues and about 2,000 Jews, the largest community of Morocco. The Museum of Moroccan Judaism in suburban Casablanca, the first museum on Judaism in the Arab world, stands as a symbol of the lasting Jewish legacy in Morocco. Indeed, there's been a Jewish presence in what is considered modern-day Morocco for some 2,000 years, dating back to the early days of the establishment of Roman control.  Morocco was home to thousands of Jews, many of whom lived in special quarters called “Mellah,” or Jewish ghetto. Mellahs were common in cities across Morocco. JESSICA: Morocco was one of the few places in the Islamic world where there emerged the tradition of a distinctive Jewish quarter that had its own walls and was closed with its own gates. MANYA: Jessica Marglin is a professor of religion, law, and history at the University of Southern California. Her research focuses on the history of Jews and Muslims in North Africa and the Mediterranean. JESSICA: There's a bit of a debate. Were these quarters there to control Jews and force them to all live in one spot and was it a sort of form of basically repression? Or was it a way to protect them? The first mellah, the one in Fez is right next to the palace. And so there was a sense that the Jews would be closer to the Sultan or the Sultan's representative, and thus more easily protectable. It could be interpreted as a bad thing. And some Jews did see it as an unfair restriction. But I would say that most Jews didn't question the idea that Jews would live together. And that was sort of seen as natural and desirable. And there was a certain kind of autonomous jurisdiction to the mellah, too.  Because Jews had their own courts. They had their own butchers. They had their own ovens. Butchers and ovens would have been kosher. They could sell wine in the mellah. They could do all these things that were particular to them. And that's where all the synagogues were. And that's where the Jewish cemetery was, right? It was really like a little Jewish city, sort of within the city. MANYA: Unlike other parts of the Middle East and North Africa where pogroms and expulsions, especially after the creation of the state of Israel, caused hundreds of thousands of Jews to abruptly flee all at once – spilling out of countries they had called home for centuries – Jews chose to leave Morocco gradually over time, compared to the exodus from other Arab countries.  JESSICA: When I teach these things, I set up Morocco and Iraq as the two ends of the spectrum. Iraq being the most extreme, where Jews were really basically kicked out all at once. Essentially offered no real choice. I mean, some did stay, but it was choosing a totally reduced life.  Versus Morocco, where the Jews who left did so really, with a real choice. They could have stayed and the numbers are much more gradual than anywhere else. So there was a much larger community that remained for years and years and years, even after ‘67, into the ‘70s.  Even though they kept going down, it was really, it was not like Iraq where the population just falls off a cliff, right? It's like one year, there's 100,000, the next year, they're 5,000. In Morocco, it really went down extremely gradually. And that's in part why it's still the largest Jewish community in the Arab world by far. MANYA: Morocco's Jewish history is by no means all rosy. In all Arab countries, antisemitism came in waves and different forms. But there are several moments in history when the Moroccan monarchy could've abandoned the Jewish population but didn't. And in World War II, the Moroccan monarch took steps to safeguard the community. In recent years, there have been significant gestures such as the opening of the Jewish museum in Casablanca, a massive restoration of landmarks that honor Morocco's Jewish past, including 167 Jewish cemeteries, and the inclusion of Holocaust education in school curricula. In 2020, Morocco became one of four Arab countries to sign a normalization agreement with Israel, as part of the U.S.-backed Abraham Accords, which allowed for economic and diplomatic cooperation and direct flights between the two countries. MANYA: Oral histories suggest that Jews have lived in Morocco for some 2,000 years, roughly since the destruction of the Second Temple. But tangible evidence of a Jewish presence doesn't date as far back. JESSICA: The archaeological remains suggest that the community dates more to the Roman period. There was a continual presence from at least since the late Roman period, certainly well before the Islamic conquests. MANYA: Like other parts of the Middle East and North Africa, Jews in Morocco were heavily concentrated in particular artisanal trades. Many were cobblers, tailors, and jewelers who adorned their creations with intricate designs and embellishments. Gemstones, carved coral, geometric designs, and symbols such as the Hamsa to bless the wearer with good fortune and protect them from the evil eye. JESSICA: And there were certain areas where they kind of were overrepresented in part because of stigmas associated with certain crafts for Muslims. So gold and silver jewelry making in certain parts of Morocco, like in the city of Fez, Jews were particularly overrepresented in the trade that made these gold threads, which are called skalli in Moroccan Arabic, and which are used to embroider sort of very fancy clothing for men and for women. Skalli for instance, is a very common last name for Jews.  MANYA: Jessica notes that in the 12th and 13th Centuries, Morocco came under the rule of the Almohad caliphate, a fundamentalist regime that saw itself as a revolutionary reform movement. Under the Almohad dynasty, local Christians in North Africa from Morocco to Libya all but disappeared.  Jews on the other hand stayed. She suspects Morocco developed its own version of crypto-Jews who superficially converted to Islam or at least lived outwardly as Muslims to survive.  JESSICA: There's probably more of a sense of Jews had more experience of living as minorities. Also, where else were they going to go? It wasn't so obvious. So whatever conversions there were, some of them must have stuck. And there are still, for instance, Muslim families in Fez named Kohen . . . Cohen. MANYA: Jews chose Morocco as a place of refuge in 1391, when a series of mob attacks on Jewish communities across Spain killed hundreds and forcibly converted others to Christianity. As opposed to other places in Europe, Morocco was considered a place where Jews could be safe. More refugees arrived after the Alhambra Decree of 1492 expelled Jews from Spain who refused to convert. That is when Eli's father's side of the family landed in Fez.  ELI: Our tradition is that the family came from Spain, and we date our roots to Toledo, Spain. The expulsion of the Jews took place out of Spain in 1492 at which time the family moved from Spain to Morocco to Fez. MANYA: At that time, the first mellahs emerged, the name derived from the Arabic word for salt. Jessica says that might have referred to the brackish swamps where the mellah were built.  JESSICA: The banning of Jews from Spain in 1492 brought a lot of Jews to North Africa, especially Morocco, because Morocco was so close. And, you know, that is why Jews in northern Morocco still speak Spanish today, or a form of Judeo Spanish known as Haketia. So, there were huge numbers of Iberian Jews who ended up throughout Morocco. And then for a long time, they remained a kind of distinctive community with their own laws and their own rabbis and their own traditions. Eventually, they kind of merged with local Jews. And they used Spanish actually, for decades, until they finally sort of Arabized in most of Morocco. ELI: My father's family, as I said, comes from a small town of Aslim. The family arrived in that area sometime in 1780 or so after there was a decree against Jews in Fez to either convert to Islam or leave. And so in a real sense, they were expelled from that region of Fez. There were Jews who arrived throughout the years after different exiles from different places. But predominantly the Jews that arrived in 1492 as a result of the Spanish expulsion were known as the strangers, and they integrated themselves in time into the fabric of Moroccan Jewry.  MANYA: For Eli's family, that meant blending in with the nomadic Amazigh, or indigenous people of North Africa, commonly called Berbers. Many now avoid that term because it was used by European colonialists and resembles the word “barbarians.” But it's still often used colloquially.  ELI: Aslim is in the heart of Berber territory. My father's family did speak Berber. My grandfather spoke Berber, and they dressed as Berbers. They wore jalabia, which is the dress for men, for instance, and women wore dresses only, a head covering.  Men also wore head coverings. They looked like Berbers in some sense, but their origins were all the way back to Spain. MANYA: In most cases across Morocco, Jews were classified as dhimmis, non-Muslim residents who were given protected status. Depending on the rulers, dhimmis lived under different restrictions; most paid a special tax, others were forced to wear different clothes. But it wasn't consistent.  ELI: Rulers, at their whim, would decide if they were good to the Jews or bad to the Jews. And the moment of exchange between rulers was a very critical moment, or if that ruler was attacked. MANYA: The situation for Jews within Morocco shifted again in 1912 when Morocco became a French protectorate. Many Jews adopted French as their spoken language and took advantage of educational opportunities offered to them by Alliance Israélite Universelle. The borders also remained open for many Jews who worked as itinerant merchants to go back and forth throughout the region.  JESSICA: Probably the most famous merchants were the kind of rich, international merchants who dealt a lot with trade across the Mediterranean and in other parts of the Middle East or North Africa. But there were a lot of really small-time merchants, people whose livelihood basically depended on taking donkeys into the hinterland around the cities where Jews tended to congregate.  MANYA: Rachel's family, businesspeople, had origins in two towns – near Agadir and in Essaouira. Eli has copies of three edicts issued to his great-grandfather Nissim Lev, stating that as a merchant, he was protected by the government in his travels. But the open borders didn't contain the violence that erupted in other parts of the Middle East, including the British Mandate of Palestine.  In late August 1929, a clash about the use of space next to the Western Wall in Jerusalem led to riots and a pogrom of Jews who had lived there for thousands of years. Moroccan Jews also were attacked. Rachel's grandfather Nissim died in the violence. RACHEL: He was a peddler. He was a salesman. He used to go all week to work, and before Thursday, he used to come for Shabbat. So they caught him in the road, and they took his money and they killed him there.  ELI: So my great-grandfather– RACHEL: He was very young. ELI: She's speaking of, in 1929 there were riots in Israel, in Palestine. In 1929 my great-grandfather went to the market, and at that point … so . . . a riot had started, and as my mother had described, he was attacked. And he was knifed. And he made it not very far away, all the other Jews in the market fled. Some were killed, and he was not fortunate enough to escape. Of course, all his things were stolen, and it looked like a major robbery of the Jews in the market. It gave the opportunity to do so, but he was buried nearby there in a Jewish cemetery in the Atlas Mountains. So he was not buried closer to his own town. I went to visit that place. MANYA: In the mid-1930s, both Amram and Rachel's families moved to the mellah in Casablanca where Amram's father was a rabbi. Rachel's family ran a bathhouse. Shortly after Amram was born, his mother died, leaving his father to raise three children.  Though France still considered Morocco one of its protectorates, it left Morocco's Sultan Mohammad V as the country's figurehead. When Nazis occupied France during World War II and the Vichy regime instructed the sultan to deport Morocco's Jews to Nazi death camps, he reportedly refused, saving thousands of lives. But Amram's grandmother did not trust that Morocco would protect its Jews. Following the Second Battle of El Alamein in Egypt, the Axis Powers' second attempt to invade North Africa, she returned to the Atlas Mountains with Amran and his siblings and stayed until they returned to Casablanca at the end of the war.  ELI: There was a fear that the Nazis were going to enter Morocco. My father, his grandmother, took him from Casablanca with two other children and went back to Aslim in the mountains, because she said we can better hide there. We can better hide in the Atlas Mountains. And so my father returned, basically went from Casablanca to the Atlas Mountains to hide from the coming Nazis. MANYA:  In 1947, at the age of 10, Amram went from Casablanca to an Orthodox yeshiva in England. Another destination for Jews also had emerged. Until then, no one had wanted to move to British-controlled Palestine where the political landscape and economic conditions were more unstable.  The British restricted Jewish immigration making the process difficult, even dangerous. Additionally, French Moroccan authorities worked to curb the Zionist movement that was spreading throughout Europe. But Rachel's father saw the writing on the wall and took on a new vocation. RACHEL: His name is Moshe Lev and he was working with people to send to Eretz Yisrael. MANYA: A Zionist activist, Rachel's father worked for a clandestine movement to move children and eventually their families to what soon would become Israel. He wanted his children, including his 7-year-old daughter Rachel, to be the first. RACHEL: He worked there, and he sent everybody. Now our family were big, and they sent me, and then my sister went with my father and two brothers, and then my mom left by herself They flew us to Norvege [Norway].  MANYA: After a year in Norway, Rachel was taken to Villa Gaby in Marseille, France, a villa that became an accommodation center for Jews from France who wanted to join the new State of Israel. There, as she waited for a boat to take her across the Mediterranean to Israel, she spotted her brother from afar. Nissim, named for their late grandfather, was preparing to board his own boat. She pleaded to join him. RACHEL: So we're in Villa Gaby couple months. That time, I saw my brother, I get very emotional. They said ‘No, he's older. I told them ‘I will go with him.' They said ‘No, he's older and you are young, so he will go first. You are going to stay here.' He was already Bar Mitzvah, like 13 years.  I was waiting there. Then they took to us in the boat. I remember it was like six, seven months. We were sitting there in Villa Gaby. And then from Villa Gaby, we went to Israel. The boat, but the boat was quite ahead of time. And then they spoke with us, ‘You're going to go. Somebody will come and pick you up, and you are covered. If fish or something hurts you, you don't scream, you don't say nothing. You stay covered.  So one by one, a couple men they came. They took kids and out. Our foot was wet from the ocean, and here and there they was waiting for us, people with a hot blanket. I remember that. MANYA: Rachel landed at Kibbutz Kabri, then a way station for young newcomers in northern Israel. She waited there for years without her family – until one stormy day. RACHEL: One day. That's emotional. One day we were sitting in the living room, it was raining, pouring. We couldn't go to the rooms, so we were waiting. All of a sudden, a group of three men came in, and I heard my father was talking. His voice came to me. And I said to the teacher, taking care of us. I said ‘You know what? Let me tell you one thing. I think my father is here.' She said ‘No, you just imagination. Now let's go to the rooms to sleep.'  So we went there. And all of a sudden she came to me. She said, ‘You know what? You're right. He insists to come to see you. He will not wait till morning, he said. I wanted to see my daughter now. He was screaming. They didn't want him to be upset. He said we'll bring her because he said here's her picture. Here's her and everything. So I came and oh my god was a nice emotional. And we were there sitting two or three hours. My father said, Baruch Hashem. I got the kids. Some people, they couldn't find their kids, and I find my kids, thanks God. And that's it. It was from that time he wants to take us. They said, No, you live in the Ma'abara. Not comfortable for the kids. We cannot let you take the kids. The kids will stay in their place till you establish nicely. But it was close to Pesach. He said, we promise Pesach, we bring her, for Pesach to your house. You give us the address. Where are you? And we'll bring her, and we come pick her up. JESSICA: Really as everywhere else in the Middle East and North Africa, it was the Declaration of the Independence of Israel. And the war that started in 1947, that sort of set off a wave of migration, especially between ‘48 and ‘50. Those were the kind of highest numbers per year. MANYA: Moroccan Jews also were growing frustrated with how the French government continued to treat them, even after the end of World War II. When the state of Israel declared independence, Sultan Mohammad V assured Moroccan Jews that they would continue to be protected in Morocco. But it was clear that Moroccan Jew's outward expression of support for Israel would face new cultural and political scrutiny and violence.  Choosing to emigrate not only demonstrated solidarity, it indicated an effort to join the forces fighting to defend the Jewish state. In June 1948, 43 Jews were killed by local Muslims in Oujda, a departure point for Moroccan Jews seeking to migrate to Israel. Amram arrived in Israel in the early 1950s. He returned to Morocco to convince his father, stepmother, and brother to make aliyah as well. Together, they went to France, then Israel where his father opened the same synagogue he ran in the mellah of Casablanca. Meanwhile in Morocco, the Sultan's push for Moroccan independence landed him in exile for two years. But that didn't last long. The French left shortly after he returned and Morocco gained its independence in March 1956. CLIP - CASABLANCA 1956 NEWSREEL: North Africa, pomp and pageantry in Morocco as the Sultan Mohamed Ben Youssef made a state entry into Casablanca, his first visit to the city since his restoration last autumn. Aerial pictures reveal the extent of the acclamation given to the ruler whose return has of his hope brought more stable conditions for his people. MANYA: The situation of the Jews improved. For the first time in their history, they were granted equality with Muslims. Jews were appointed high-ranking positions in the first independent government. They became advisors and judges in Morocco's courts of law.  But Jewish emigration to Israel became illegal. The immigration department of the Jewish Agency that had operated inside Morocco since 1949 closed shop and representatives tasked with education about the Zionist movement and facilitating Aliyah were pressed to leave the country. JESSICA: The independent Moroccan state didn't want Jews emigrating to Israel, partly because of anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian sentiment, and partly because they didn't want to lose well-educated, productive members of the State, of the new nation. MANYA: Correctly anticipating that Moroccan independence was imminent and all Zionist activity would be outlawed, Israel's foreign intelligence agency, the Mossad, created the Misgeret, which organized self-defense training for Jews across the Arab countries. Casablanca became its center in Morocco. Between November 1961 and the spring of 1964, the Mossad carried out Operation Yakhin, a secret mission to get nearly 100,000 Jews out of Morocco into Israel. JESSICA: There was clandestine migration during this period, and a very famous episode of a boat sinking, which killed a lot of people. And there was increasing pressure on the Moroccan state to open up emigration to Israel. Eventually, there were sort of secret accords between Israelis and the Moroccan King, which did involve a payment of money per Jew who was allowed to leave, from the Israelis to the Moroccans.  MANYA: But cooperation between Israel and Morocco reportedly did not end there. According to revelations by a former Israeli military intelligence chief in 2016, King Hassan II of Morocco provided the intelligence that helped Israel win the Six-Day War. In 1965, he shared recordings of a key meeting between Arab leaders held inside a Casablanca hotel to discuss whether they were prepared for war and unified against Israel. The recordings revealed that the group was not only divided but woefully ill-prepared. JESSICA: Only kind of after 1967, did the numbers really rise again. And 1967, again, was kind of a flashpoint. The war created a lot of anti-Zionist and often anti-Jewish sentiment across the region, including in Morocco, and there were some riots and there were, there was some violence, and there was, again, a kind of uptick in migration after that. For some people, they'll say, yes, there was antisemitism, but that wasn't what made me leave. And other people say yes, at a certain point, the antisemitism got really bad and it felt uncomfortable to be Jewish. I didn't feel safe. I didn't feel like I wanted to raise my children here.  For some people, they will say ‘No, I would have happily stayed, but my whole family had left, I didn't want to be alone.' And you know, there's definitely a sense of some Moroccan Jews who wanted to be part of the Zionist project. It wasn't that they were escaping Morocco. It was that they wanted to build a Jewish state, they wanted to be in the Holy Land. ELI: Jews in Morocco fared better than Jews in other Arab countries. There is no question about that. MANYA: Eli Gabay is grateful to the government for restoring many of the sites where his ancestors are buried or called home. The current king, Mohammed VI, grandson of Mohammed V, has played a significant role in promoting Jewish heritage in Morocco. In 2011, a year after the massive cemetery restoration, a new constitution was approved that recognized the rights of religious minorities, including the Jewish community.  It is the only constitution besides Israel's to recognize the country's Hebraic roots. In 2016, the King attended the rededication ceremony of the Ettedgui Synagogue in Casablanca.  The rededication of the synagogue followed the re-opening of the El Mellah Museum, which chronicles the history of Moroccan Jewry. Other Jewish museums and Jewish cultural centers have opened across the country, including in Essaouira, Fes, and Tangier. Not to mention–the king relies on the same senior advisor as his father did, Andre Azoulay, who is Jewish.  ELI: It is an incredible example. We love and revere the king of Morocco. We loved and revered the king before him, his father, who was a tremendous lover of the Jews. And I can tell you that in Aslim, the cemetery was encircled with a wall and well maintained at the cost, at the pay of the King of Morocco in a small, little town, and he did so across Morocco, preserved all the Jewish sites. Synagogues, cemeteries, etc.  Today's Morocco is a prime example of what a great peaceful coexistence and international cooperation can be with an Arab country. MANYA: Eli is certainly not naïve about the hatred that Jews face around the world. In 1985, the remains of Josef Mengele, known as the Nazis' Angel of Death, were exhumed from a grave outside Sao Paulo, Brazil. Eli was part of a team of experts from four countries who worked to confirm it was indeed the Nazi German doctor who conducted horrific experiments on Jews at Auschwitz. Later that decade, Eli served on the team with Israel's Ministry of Justice that prosecuted John Ivan Demjanjuk, a retired Cleveland auto worker accused of being the notorious Nazi death camp guard known as “Ivan the Terrible.” Demjanjuk was accused of being a Nazi collaborator who murdered Jews in the gas chambers at the Treblinka death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland during World War II. In fact, Eli is featured prominently in a Netflix documentary series about the case called The Devil Next Door. CLIP - ‘THE DEVIL NEXT DOOR' TRAILER: …Nazi death camp guard named Ivan the Terrible. The crimes that he was accused of were horrid.  The Israeli government is seeking his extradition as a war criminal. And that's where the drama begins.  MANYA: Demjanjuk was convicted and sentenced to death, but the verdict was later overturned. U.S. prosecutors later extradited him to Germany on charges of being an accessory to the murder of about 28,000 Jews at Sobibor. He was again convicted but died before the outcome of his appeal. ELI: Going back to Israel and standing in court and saying ‘on behalf of the State of Israel' were the proudest words of my life. It was very meaningful to serve as a prosecutor. It was very meaningful to serve in the IDF. These were highlights in my life.  They represented my core identity: as a Jew, as a Sephardic Jew, as an Israeli Sephardic Jew. These are the tenets of my life. I am proud to serve today as the president of the longest running synagogue in America. MANYA: Eli has encountered hatred in America too. In May 2000 congregants arriving for Shabbat morning prayers at Philadelphia's Beit Harambam Congregation where Eli was first president were greeted by police and firefighters in front of a burned-out shell of a building. Torah scrolls and prayer books were ruined. When Rachel opened her store 36 years ago, it became the target of vandals who shattered her windows. But she doesn't like to talk about that. She has always preferred to focus on the positive. Her daughter Sima Shepard, Eli's sister, says her mother's optimism and resilience are also family traditions. SIMA SHEPARD: Yeah, my mom speaks about the fact that she left Morocco, she is in Israel, she comes to the U.S. And yet consistently, you see one thing: the gift of following tradition. And it's not just again religiously, it's in the way the house is Moroccan, the house is Israeli. Everything that we do touches on previous generations. I'm a little taken that there are people who don't know that there are Jews in Arab lands. They might not know what they did, because European Jews came to America first. They came to Israel first. However, however – we've lived among the Arab countries, proudly so, for so many years. MANYA: Moroccan Jews are just one of the many Jewish communities who, in the last century, left Arab countries to forge new lives for themselves and future generations.  Join us next week as we share another untold story of The Forgotten Exodus. Many thanks to Eli, Rachel and Sima for sharing their family's story.  Too many times during my reporting, I encountered children and grandchildren who didn't have the answers to my questions because they'd never asked. That's why one of the goals of this project is to encourage you to ask those questions. Find your stories. Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jon Schweitzer, Nicole Mazur, Sean Savage, and Madeleine Stern, and so many of our colleagues, too many to name really, for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to The Forgotten Exodus on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/theforgottenexodus.  The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC.  You can reach us at theforgottenexodus@ajc.org. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us.

Ben, from Miami, express his battle with depression and thoughts of taking his own life. With compassion and empathy, Patrick Madrid offers reassurance and support, reminding Ben of God's love and the value of his life. He encourages Ben to seek professional help, provides practical advice, and urges him to resist the negative voices. The conversation ends with a message of hope and a promise of prayer.   Erica (email) – Can I bring my dog on a Good Friday walk? (01:41) Joe (email) - Where does pride begin and scrupulosity end? (04:41) Fides – What was the title of that book about suffering? “Making Sense of Suffering” by Peter Kreeft (08:57) What gift can I give someone who is in RCIA and will be coming into the Church on Saturday? Mike - I used to think some people weren't helpful, but the reason is because I didn't want to hear or be convicted by them. (11:12) Philip - My brother is a non-believer. What should I have him read to convert him? (14:42) Karen - Should I cancel leading the rosary at my church for Holy Saturday? (26:11) Ben - Would God be mad at me if I took my life? (28:18) Gale – Why is the verse where the man runs away naked in the garden in the bible? (36:54) Rachel - It has been 8 years since I had gotten help for my depression. I know exactly what Ben is going through. (44:19)

Discernment is so much more than our analyzing the realities and circumstances around us by the use of intellect and reason. These faculties, as wonderful as they are, have inherent limitations. They are not infinite, nor can they speak of God as he is in himself.  What God begins to show us in the spiritual life is that the more that we enter his love and truth, the more we are drawn into a mystery that is beyond us. Faith is described by many of the Saints as a “dark obscure knowing”. It is God‘s light, his divine light, that pierces through the darkness, and reveals to us the beauty of his love. It reveals (draws back the veil) and shows us that this love is worth everything to pursue and attain. “Love never ends”, the scriptures tell us. Discernment opens the door to that reality and allows us to step towards the beloved who desires to give us all. Our destiny is to move from glory to glory in the never-ending love of God. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:07:32 FrDavid Abernethy: page 209 para 139   00:40:44 Daniel Allen: Is the inverse then true?   00:42:28 Amale: What can the demons see or not see within us?   00:46:21 Rachel: The Elder would also know that in turn.. they could merit by true charity towards each other   00:47:33 Rachel: Where despite the feelings of animosity that arose, the monks would then more purely offer charity in the only way they can due to their limited capacity to love purely without unholy attachments   00:47:55 Maureen Cunningham: Father can demons reproduce? i was just wonderfing   00:48:00 Maureen Cunningham: Wondering   00:48:49 Kate : Can the demons hear our confessions to a priest within the context of the sacrament?   00:49:19 Maureen Cunningham: Best News   00:49:25 Jeff O.: Cassian seems to say in his conferences that they cannot reproduce   00:50:23 Amale: Do any souls who go to hell end up becoming demons? 00:51:10 Vanessa: Replying to "Do any souls who go ..."   I thought demons were the 1/3 of heavenly beings who went with Lucifer.   00:51:17 Jeff O.: He talks about it in the eighth conference on the principalities   00:51:24 David: In organization studies clicks can start which can create toxic results for teams.   00:51:53 Rachel: It is like the story of the Desert Father who, as soon as he instructed his Spiritual son would quickly leave him   00:52:39 David: We becomes us and them   00:52:51 Rachel: I suppose that was not for the community but purity of heart   01:00:58 David: I have heard a critism of the western church that we try to explain everything while the east embraces mysteries to be contemplated more. When I was younger I wanted the answers the older I get the more I love contemplating mysteries more.   01:01:15 Vanessa: Reacted to "I have heard a criti..." with ❤️   01:01:28 Jeff O.: Reacted to "I have heard a criti..." with

Rachel Bernstein LMFT, MSEd discusses what it's like working with survivors from high-control groups. This episode is for survivors looking for a mental health professional or for mental health professionals looking to work with the demographic of survivors of cults, high-control groups, and spiritual abuse. University of SalfordTranscript (Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings)Katherine: Hello. How are you doing today?Rachel: I am doing really good. How are you doing today? Katherine: I am good. I am a little tired. I went to a midnight book release. On Monday nights, and I don't ever stay up that late, and I'm still sleeping.That was a new thing for me. I was like, this is what teenagers do. These are not what people who are almost 40 do. But it was fun. It was a fun experience. I'm glad. Very excited to talk to you today. I know you have indoctrination podcast, and you do a lot of different work with a lot of different clients, but the particular demographic that I would [00:01:00] love to talk to you about is the demographic of folks who've And cults or high control experiences.And I would love to hear from you, what prompted you to work with this demographic and what was the story that led you to working with this type Rachel: of client? Nice. Okay. So there's so much to this story. I'll try not to make it overly long, but Okay, great. No, go for it. Tell, tell, tell whatever. It's slightly long, longer than it needs to be, not overly.Right. Huh. Right. So, When I was growing up, my, one of my siblings who was eight years older got. Kind of a new friend through a friend, and they started hanging out a lot. Next thing we know, she's not really spending time at home. She has taken the money out of her [00:02:00] account and it's gone.Which she had really worked hard for. In my family, we were supposed to work from when we were young. If we needed cash for anything, even to go to the movies, well, you need to earn it. You know, it was like that. So it, you know, we didn't take spending lots of money all at once lightly. Cause we know how much we had worked to make it and suddenly liquidated gone.And she was speaking differently. She was acting in a very kind of in your face way. And we're like, what is going on? So then she said that she has this friend of a friend who's introduced her to this place. It's called Scientology. Got it. And and it's a church, but we're a Jewish family, but it's not a church church.That would, that became a line in our family forever. It's not a church church. Like what? I'm sorry. It's not a church church, but it's not. So. Because there really wasn't the idea of a word cult that was known at the time, and this was in the 70s. So there [00:03:00] was no one to call. There were no resources that, you know, the books out there at the time before the interwebs, the, the books were written by cult leaders.Like there were L. Ron Hubbard novels out there about Dianetics and his science fiction books, but nothing about what is Scientology and that it is a cult. And the, the cult books that were out there too, were more about like working with POWs who had been indoctrinated and watching the Manchurian candidate and are like, yeah, fit, but not.So the turning point was. And I learned a lot about this. My, my parents responded different ways to stressful events. My mom was more of a kind of in your face, you have to stop this right now, finger pointing. I mean, that, that does sometimes come in handy, right? And my father instead was the, let me link arms with this person, see what they like about it, see what's interesting to them.But also I want to ask my questions about what I'm concerned about. So, They had tension and [00:04:00] she had tension with my parents and she said this group is going to teach me how to get along better with, with all of you. And And my friend said she's gotten along better with her parents since she's gotten involved.And so my father, in a very nice way, said could we call her parents and find out? Like, if this really has helped, then I'll say, okay. And she got the number of this person and their parents and the parents said, in this kind of panic tone, where did you see our daughter? Whoa. Right? That was a whoa.And my dad goes, what do you mean? We haven't, we don't know where she is. She left home six months ago and she said for the last six months she's been getting along better with her parents. She hasn't seen them. So this is the way the group defined getting along better, right? No contact. Katherine: No contact. Rachel: Cut them off.Oh my. That actually startled my sister. She didn't know. She didn't know [00:05:00] that's what that meant. I'm sorry. And she tried to get her money back. That was impossible, but. That you could see the personality change right away, and you could see that being in your face and she was having problems with her friends at school for the first time, too, because she was learning other ways of communicating the Scientology way of communicating, which is very in your face.So that became dinner table conversation. How can this happen that people can just take over someone's mind and convince them that something is true. That's really not true. That's totally the opposite of what is true. And then. Because I then was raised hearing about this and that there are many groups that do their recruiting also on college campuses, and they use front names, I then went to college, and I saw it.I saw these groups with their front names that I had learned, and they're at the student union, you know, passing out their pamphlets having people join, taking them on weekends, the bus picked up in front of my dorm, and I remember, because I was now cult educated, [00:06:00] I said to these people, Where are you going?And they said, Oh, we're going on a church weekend. What church is it? We don't know. Really? You don't know. And where are you going? Well, we're going to the mountains. I go, you know, that's not a place like mountains are these geographical structures and geological entities. That's not a place. Do you know where you're going?Is there going to be a phone there? Like, how are you going to leave? And they just thought I was being a drag. And I remember the leaders coming on the bus and asking me who I was and why I was harassing the people who were going. But I thought some of them are going to be dropping out of school after this and needing to show their devotion to this group and not school because that's what would happen.Suddenly these people were gone. Yeah. And then. So there are just two more parts of this story, and it really is, this is a shorter version. When I then went on to grad school to become, to, to become a therapist, to learn [00:07:00] counseling, there was a, a group therapy course where you learn to do group therapy that turned out to be run like a cult.The leader of it, who was the teacher, used, utilized almost every technique of influence and manipulation. And that was just her personality and I did a social experiment in that class, which was interesting because I noticed. This was the year before my dad passed away the year before I broke up with my boyfriend the year before my favorite dog passed away like I was just on the cusp of going through lots of trauma.Yeah, but until then life had been okay, but we were supposed to share our traumas. And if we didn't have trauma to share like if we hadn't gone through abuse or something, we were withholding, we were being resistant to the process. And then I could see people folding like I could see them making stories up just to be liked.And then they would be hugged by the people in the group. Thank you for [00:08:00] trusting us with your trauma and with your, with your past. So people were just crafting stories to please the teacher. I thought, wow, this is happening in a therapy class. I remember talking to my Dean about that. He was actually a little alarmed and I did one of my, I did my dissertation on what happened in that class for that school.That was controversial. But then I, I thought, you know, I want to do this work because there were so few resources for people and. I, yes, I want to do general counseling. I still do some general counseling, but about 80 percent of the counts counseling I do is former cult stuff. And then I start that they were looking for a clinician at a place called the cult clinic in Los Angeles, which was effectively shut down by Scientology.But that was my first taste of harassment, Scientology harassment, which did scare me. I mean, they had. discredited LAPD officers that they hired to harass people to follow people. They were scary, [00:09:00] scary mofos, if I can say. Leaning on my car when I'd come out of the office following me home sending people into poses clients.And I get this note saying, just to let you know, we're watching and listening and thought, what the hell is this? And so I remember staying home for about a week, my father had passed about a year before this, and suddenly I heard his words, which were, you can't let the bullies win. That was his way of looking at the world like you cannot let the bullies win.And I thought, Okay, but I need a week. I just have a week. I'm like talking to him wherever he is. He's already passed. And I had to get myself together and See what my rights were. Yes, we're not. Take a little break, right? Yes, we're not letting them win, but I do need a break. I need a break, because they're outside my house, and I need to know if I'll be protected.I need to contact the police. And then I went back to work, and I thought, what I'm dealing with in terms of harassment is only slightly what former Scientologists deal [00:10:00] with. And other people from other groups. They're pretty intense. Yeah. Scientologists are very intense. Really intense. Katherine: Stopping them is intense, right?Mm hmm. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. They've complained to my board many times to try to have my license taken away. They, they're no nonsense, but it's what happens to me and to a couple of my, you know, colleagues. And, and I think to me, especially because where I started doing my work, my counseling was very close to the Scientology buildings in Hollywood.So I started working with a lot of Scientologists and have continued working with them. So they don't like me, but okay. So that's, that's sort of how I got started in this. So yeah. And then how many years would you say Katherine: that this has been like the folks? Is it kind of been from the Rachel: beginning? Yeah, it's been since I've been doing counseling.It's been 32 years and it's morphed over time in that before it really was. It was, I thought this was fascinating. [00:11:00] This was a human rights issue to me, especially the way in a lot of these groups that women were treated and children were treated or mistreated, neglected and, and then over time it morphed to include now people who have been in relationships with narcissists because I would do a talk on cults or something and someone would call me and say, that sounds like my husband.Oh, what do you mean? And I kind of learned from people responding to my words about cult saying, no, that was my family that or that was my relationship. So I realized to now with. You know, with political landscape and so many people having polarized views of things and group think that I think is very scary.That's happening right now in the world to that I care about this on a micro level and also macro that. As the descendant of Holocaust survivors, I'm, I care a lot about group think and how people can be, kind of, how you get to Katherine: that place. It Rachel: doesn't Right. Caught up into a ffr, the [00:12:00] torch and pitchfork way of Right.And then also still on the micro person by person listening to what they've been through and trying to help them individually. Katherine: Mm-Hmm. Two, two observations. First of all. I noticed that when you were talking to those people who were getting on this bus to go to the quote unquote mountains, and that your father's approach to your sister, a lot of questions, there was like a lot of asking questions and I sure I'm sure we'll get into that.In just a minute, but I, I noticed that and then also I do appreciate that you address the fact that like a narcissistic relationship can have that similarity because I feel like I know like in the world that I work in, we have a much better, a broader. view of like what a cult can be, what a high control relationship can be, and what a high control religion can be.But most folks [00:13:00] still think of a cult as like something happening in a bunker somewhere, or out in the desert, and Expanding what that can be and what that high control relationship can be. And there are so many people who experienced that, but then have that very, just invalidating experience of like, nobody knows what this is like.It feels like a cult, but I can't call it a cult because it doesn't look like this. And, and so I appreciate that. You made that connection between that narcissist and that cold, cold experience. The impact can be very, very similar. Rachel: The impact is very similar.I think because not every cult is run by a narcissist. Some really are. You know, they have their delusional disorder and they get people into this diagnosis that is called fully I do, which is shared psychosis. Like they invite people who are maybe vulnerable to that way of thinking into their psychosis, but by [00:14:00] and large, I'd say a good 90 percent of cult leaders have a narcissistic bent.And so then. Whether it's your partner, your parent, even your child, there's some people who contact me because their children are narcissistic and run their life. Because that it's the same disorder that's prompting it, you're going to have similar techniques. Like they've read the same manual. It's kind of amazing.And, and then when you have similar techniques of, of manipulation, gaslighting, all of it, you're going to have similar outcomes. So it could be a one on one situation or it could be hundreds of thousands of people. Katherine: Yeah, and that can be helpful for someone who is recovering from that type of relationship, like even looking for someone who has the high control experience when they are looking for a mental health professional.Right. That would be maybe not necessarily just a narcissistic relationship, but someone who has that experience might be able to relate with that a little more. One of the things that's unique about your story is you didn't get into [00:15:00] this demographic because you had a personal experience being in a cult.So I think that's really unique. I feel like everyone that I know who gets into this demographic also had an experience. In it makes your story very unique to me, but then also, what are some things that you have learned over the years from your clients about what they need for Rachel: recovery? Right. It's a great question.So yes. And it, it is unique that I haven't. Been in one myself, and I think that's why I work almost equally with the families and friends of people who are in situations like this or in relational situations like this and have a webinar for them too, because I was. One of those, like being on the outside, needing to figure out how to have these conversations, how to manage the anxiety that comes up when you see your loved one getting slowly stolen away from you.And you don't [00:16:00] know what this forces that's on them and how to. See if you can get them back and if it's even possible and learning about the ways to communicate that are in a kind of counterintuitive way that are specific for this has been something I noticed from my own family, but also now for further doing this work and learning about that.So, right. I mean, what. People need. It's interesting when you talk about doing this kind of counseling for the people specifically who were in situations like this, whether it is a cult or a relationship that took over their life, multi level marketing, abusive teen treatment place, whatever it was, or is, or having been with a therapist who was dangerous, which I talk about a lot.I, well, it's unconscionable to me. To use that power in that way makes me mad. And so there are, [00:17:00] there are some things that. Are really important. I think for specifically when people are coming out of this, they need to know that they're believed because so often they're made to feel that they're exaggerating the story or they didn't get it right.That's part of the gaslighting that they can't trust the evidence of their senses and how they are deciphering what happened. And they also will often underplay it. And really downgrade how much they've been traumatized because it wasn't supposed to be seen that way in the group like you're supposed to just deal with being abused, or you're, it's for your benefit.You're supposed to be appreciative of being treated that way, being selected for something that turned out to be abusive. So. Abuse, neglect get underreported a lot of the time by people who leave. And what helps is defining for them what they've been through. Like, Oh, [00:18:00] that actually is abuse. That's why you're having nightmares.That's why you break into a cold sweat when you hear someone who has similar voice to the person who did that to you. I want you to understand yourself and your reactions, and you'll only understand it if you know what happened to you. And also that it wasn't your fault. That you didn't bring it in, that it wasn't because of you.Because, you know, within a cultic system, as you know, anything that's good that happens to you is because of the leadership. Anything that's bad is because of you. Katherine: And because you didn't Rachel: follow the leadership. Right, because you didn't follow the leadership. You, or you weren't feeling it in your heart or whatever, whatever it is, it's always back on you.So to be able to have a clear sense of who the culprit is, and you can take it off of you is also a really important thing. It's also good for people to understand that they have strengths, that they have capabilities. That they can live in the world and be successful at it, even [00:19:00] though they have been told that they don't have these strengths and these capabilities and to have them understand why they were convinced of that and how that fed the.Need of the leader to have you be dependent on them and to never want to leave because you don't feel equipped to be in the world. I think helping people understand why they were taught what they were taught and how it wasn't for them. It was right. It was for the control that the leader or the group needed to have over them.That's really helpful just to understand the source and the reasoning for the things they were taught as truths about them. And I think it's really helpful to connect people with other people. That's why I run a support group. So people don't feel isolated and alone. And I will often talk to people about how they They are having trouble relaxing and resting because when you're in a cult, you're going, going, going, you're doing, doing, doing, you learn that you matter the [00:20:00] least and you don't have to sleep.And it's fine if you're not eating and you're, you're supposed to somehow be devoted to the cause. And I try to shift that in my counseling work. So people know they are also the cause that it's important for them to take care of them. And that that's not selfish and it's not being lazy and it's not having pride.It's not all the other things that it's called when you care about you. And that you have to be a good steward of the self in order to then do work that you might want to do that's in service of others, but it needs to happen in that order. And there's nothing wrong with you for doing it in that order.And I also, I guess I want people to know that the world outside is actually not going to be as scary and not going to be as critical and not going to be as gossipy, like they'll have more privacy. There, there aren't people who are going to give them a hard time about everything. I have Clients who [00:21:00] panic if they're running even 30 seconds late for a session, or they come on to a zoom call a little bit late, or they come to the group a little bit late.I'll sometimes see them in the waiting area on zoom and then they're gone. They're missing. And I realized they're panicking because they're sure. That I'm going to give them a hard time and I'm going to berate them for not showing their allegiance to this group and not showing that it matters enough for them to be there on time, all the things that they went through in their cultic group.And they're also They've expressed to me they're worried about not showing up for the group because when they didn't go to things, that's when they were talked about in their absence and waited and given a hard time. So they were afraid of walking back into what suddenly felt like an unsafe. Situation.So I let people know we do not talk about you. And if someone does want to talk about you while you're not here, if it's something positive, like, oh, it's so [00:22:00] nice to meet that woman last time. And I hope she comes back. That's fine. And I'll be happy to tell you about that. But, you know, someone who just wants to.Berate. Not allowed, not allowed. So it always needs to feel safe. You just, if they're doing this work and learning from people and what makes them so anxious and you just see how much they've been mistreated and how much they've been under a microscope that has been so unfair to them and has made them so tense and so worried needlessly.Katherine: Absolutely. So I heard you say. Believe them. Let them know that you believe their story. I heard you say, give them like language to name what happened and then validate even that it was like a big deal, like naming it as abuse or naming it as as gaslighting. I heard you say, help them access.Like the internal [00:23:00] resources that they have and access their own, you didn't say the word power, but their own, their own resources, their own internal resources reframe things. So learning that like outside world is not scary and, and just having that, like a lot of like compassion for. The trauma that results in anxiety or fear or mistrust or anything like that.All like super, super, super important things. And I just think about like your support groups and like the courage that it takes for someone to show up to something like that when they have, a lot of times it is a group. Right. That happened in the first place. And that can be very scary, yet such a huge part of the recovery process to be able to engage with a group again.And yeah. Oh yeah. Again, Rachel: very, very important. Yeah. There are people also who. [00:24:00] Have been in support groups that have really, really been unhealthy. And also ones where they dealt with being in a treatment center that were kind of patterned. Well, they took off from Synanon, which started this this horrible practice.It was a cult in California started a whole horrible practice of something called the game where. You are supposed to berate people in a group. You're supposed to shout at them, call them things. They would sometimes need to grovel, like walk around on, on their hands and knees to show that they were they knew they were less than or they needed to wear a sign around them, around their neck that would say something.It could say whore, could say anything and whatever they may have been labeled that day. I mean, it was, so it was attack. Therapy. I don't even want to call it therapy. And so people coming out of that have interesting reactions when I do counseling with them. [00:25:00] And, and what is one of the reactions that's kind of sad is that some of them think that I don't care about them because I'm not shouting at them.Translation. I get that Katherine: though. I, I totally get that. Yeah. Rachel: Yeah. Right. That was the justification for someone being cruel. Like, no, this is for your benefit. And so I remember one person saying, I don't know if this is going to work because you've never raised your voice, but it's like someone raised by an abusive parent, you know, like this is how I show you that I care.It's, oh, it's such a perversion of how it should be. Katherine: No, absolutely. No. And I, I mean that I'm remembering how like I migrated to someone who was like a known abusive pastor in the evangelical world is Mark Driscoll. And I remember migrating to him as a leader because he yelled from the pulpit and because he was so angry from the pulpit.And I had without realizing it been conditioned to see [00:26:00] that a strong, trustworthy leadership in it. I was like very just Very disorienting when I realized that that happens and that I like read into that anger as good leadership. It totally, totally, really. Rachel: Okay. Yeah, it's really terrible. And people get that they, they then wind up sometimes in relationships with people who are really mistreating them because.That was translated as love. That's another thing to define. Like, what is love? And what can that look like in a relationship? And what are rights? I mean, I remember one time, I, I was flown to Texas to help with the, the raid, which had already taken place on the FLDS compound. And I, I don't like raids, even though I've worked with a lot of people who did feel traumatized by [00:27:00] them, but also relieved knowing that there were people out there who cared about what was happening behind closed doors.Like it's very mixed thing. So I wasn't involved in all planning it, but they asked me to come in to, to help to train the social workers who were working with the people who had been taken off the camp compound even temporarily. And they were talking to these women or young, well, they're really still girls who are these sister wives about rights, that they had rights.And they were looking blankly and and they said, they, they don't seem to believe us that they have rights. I said, They don't know what rights are. We have to go back. We have to teach them that there are these things that are called rights. That, that there is things called boundaries, that you have the right to say no or to control your body.But that's not true in their group. So they're not gonna believe you that they have these rights. They probably don't even know that there's this thing called a constitution. Mm-Hmm. . [00:28:00] That says that they have rights that are legally protected. And they don't even Katherine: have a Rachel: concept for it. Right. And that if they were to impose those rights, they would be abused or they would be kicked out.And so it's not safe for them to have them. So we can't jump in assuming that they've had the same life and same education and same exposure. Like we have to educate them about the fact that these things exist. And that maybe that will help them leave at some point, knowing that these things exist, but only outside the compound.Katherine: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I know that. You and I probably come from the same position of just because someone has a credential doesn't make them someone as as you as you discovered with these social workers doesn't make them equipped to work with this demographic. But if someone were to be interested in working with this demographic and wanted to.Equip themselves and get the resources to be able to work with this demographic. [00:29:00] What would you point them to and what would you direct them to? And what are some recommendations for things that they could pursue to become equipped? Rachel: Okay. I think it's a great thing. And yes, just because someone has, has initials after their name doesn't make them healthy people.And I have seen that and I've seen it for people who have dealt with abuse at the hands of psychiatrists who have an MD and You know have these very advanced degrees, but they have a disorder that makes them totally misbehave. So, and, and there are people who don't have credentials who I think have been great.So it's still buyer beware, unfortunately, even it's, it's important just to be a smart spiritual consumer and a smart therapeutic. consumer. I think what people also need to know is that now there are a lot of people who are running what they're calling support groups, and they're not necessarily credentialed people.And some run a lovely group, but they're not quite sure what to [00:30:00] do when there is an issue. And they'll sometimes call me like this happened and then someone felt ganged up on and we started talking about someone. Thinking it would be helpful, but then they felt traumatized and like, it can go down kind of a rabbit hole if there isn't someone who's had training in how to run a support group.So you want to go to someone who's had training and also there are people who have left cults who will sometimes run them as cults. That's how they manage, right? That's what they know. Yeah. And then there's a group of favorites and that, you know, and they feel, they know it and other ones are feeling ostracized.It's very culty and they're feeling judged. So see how you feel. Know that if you get involved in a group, that's not your only option. You can go shopping around, don't owe them anything. You don't have to keep coming back if it doesn't feel safe. There is, this needs to be part of. The curriculum for social work schools.Katherine: Oh, my gosh. Yes, right. It does because it's [00:31:00] so common. Rachel: It's it's so common. I'm sure you've had the experience. And if you talk about this issue, invariably, when I'm out somewhere and someone asked me what I do, there's at least one other person who's going to say, Oh, yeah. I was in something or my family member was like, it happens so frequently now that I think it should be curriculum and for people who are learning to to become therapists of any sort.It's just really not, and it's still not seen as something really as important as it should be. I've, I've taught a class at. USC about how to run support groups for people who have been abused in groups. But it's just, they'll invite you with just that Katherine: extra awareness of like, they're coming into this and they're instantly going to feel anxious because and just that extra layer of awareness that someone who has never had that experience would have no idea that someone would come in to that Rachel: environment.No, right. It's it is. It's a niche. And and I'm [00:32:00] just I'm asked when I'm asked, but most of the time not because they have other things that they think are more important to teach them and maybe they are. But still, this happens. And so the there is a program out of England run by Colleagues of mine who are lovely and wonderful have had a lot of experience.It's through the University of Salford and I think you can take courses online. It's a master's in coerce coercion and coercive control. And It teaches you about what that is. I don't know to what degree it teaches you to do the counseling piece, but it is a master's in it. So you have a good framework for understanding it.And it's new few years old, and I there need to be more programs like it. But I think If people want to go to conferences, or if they want to attend like the International Cultic Studies Association conference online, where there is a section that is [00:33:00] for professionals, how you do this work, I do some lectures on it, how you also do interventions how they're different than regular interventions and, Yeah, just understanding the nuanced differences in this work is important and to understand why those things are important.So I think attending conferences, if you want to learn reading some books, I'm in the process of writing one that is going to be about my counseling work. So hopefully that will be out soon. I hope. And, and. It will be a little bit more of like a how to this is what happened to this person. And this is how I thought to help them.And because that's missing out there. So, yeah, so I think this program in England and also attending workshops at This at the International Cultic Studies Association Conference, which is yearly, is a good place to start. And and then reading books, you know, from people who are professionals who are talking about how they do this [00:34:00] work.I, because again, there were so few resources I really have learned most of what I've learned. From my clients really taking notes, like, okay, that worked better than this. And why understanding it. And, you know, we've been a learner of the Katherine: people that you're working with. And that sounds like that's part of your story is you learned from the actual people that you were working with.And, and that can be, I think, really empowering to, I think, for someone on the client side of. This person maybe doesn't understand, but they are, they want to understand and Rachel: they want it. I mean, now I can come in feeling that I have an expertise, which is great, but I also come in with enough humility to know I don't know everything, which is a really important thing for someone who's been involved in the cult to see that someone coming in, who seems to have this position of authority is saying.I'm open to you teaching me. Katherine: [00:35:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. Rachel: And I'm open to being wrong. I'm not an actor on you. Right. Exactly. I can know about cults, but I don't know you. And I don't know what's going to work for you. Some of this is going to be trial and error. I'm not going to punish you or, you know, I'm not going to stop treating you because something I provided for you turned out to not be the best thing for you.And you let me know that I'll be happy that you let me know that so we can fine tune it for you. But yeah, that dialogue does not happen. Katherine: In the cold, like, yeah, like you have something to offer here that I don't have and like having that kind of relationship when you don't know and when it isn't your expertise, but it is something that you're interested in for something for someone who is.And I, I mean, I encounter this so often just with like [00:36:00] my clients and it typically comes up even just in their first initial consultation of trying therapy and admitted and immediately realizing it's not helping and it's not the person doesn't get them and doesn't understand and then. to have to go through the process of finding someone, you know, when you're, when you're traumatized and when you're exhausted and we're just trying to figure things out, what are some guidelines that you can give to someone who is looking for a mental health professional to help them that they can maybe look for just immediately when they.Look on someone's website and questions that they can ask during the consultation to kind of help them narrow down someone who might be able to Rachel: help. Right. So first, you know, I think you and I are going to be equally reactive to going onto people's websites who seemed who, [00:37:00] who are trying to come across.Like they have the answer. They are the one. And they need to be talking all about their credentials and how they can provide something that no one else can. That is a huge red flag because they're never also typically going to be able to admit that they were wrong because they know it all. So if it feels collaborative, collaborative.Like we will work together to help you get to where you want to go that kind of language. Like, I'm going to hold your hand while we kind of muddle through this together. I can offer what I know, but this is something that, you know, I'm not going to be coming in and I'm going to be the expert and you have to listen to everything I say.And so, yes, if it has that kind of we're working together language. And that I'm open to hearing, and I want to understand you so that I can help you. That is, it's nice that you get to be, as the former member or the person who's been through this, you get to be the expert in [00:38:00] that space too, because you know your story.And you know what you feel, you intuit that you need, and you want a therapist to be open to that. It's also important for people to notice when they first start going to a therapist, if they get the sense that they have to make a commitment for a certain amount of time. That is something I think people should not necessarily agree to cause then you're locked in and then if you decide that it really isn't working for you, you might feel like you have to keep coming back because you're of that mindset of you made a commitment and you have to stick with your commitments, but it only matters if it's helping you.And so you want it to be open ended. you want to be careful to, to not work with a therapist who keeps changing the subject. Like if you really want to talk about your cult experience or the manipulation that you went through or something that's specific to your experience and the therapist just isn't trained [00:39:00] in that.And instead of saying, you know what, you have a book that would be good, or maybe I'll do some research or cause I have. Katherine: Right. Rachel: And I've had therapists contact me and say, listen, I'm not telling you, I want you to meet with my client. We have a good relationship, but I don't know about this. Can you guide me on this?And can you give me some resources? I really value that. I think that's really wonderful. So if the therapist is open to learning so that they don't keep just kind of ignoring when you bring it up, cause it's not their expertise and saying, well, now let's just talk about your mother. Or whatever, like the usual suspect.No. And you want a therapist who honors your boundaries. And if you have a therapist who asks you questions and you don't know if you want to share so much information about yourself, even though in the cult you've been trained to share everything with anyone at all times, because you have to If a therapist says, actually, that's, I'm, I'm kind of glad that you're saying [00:40:00] no, because you don't really know me yet and you don't feel comfortable talking and you don't know how I'm going to respond to your information.That's good, then that's safe. And so what can I do, I'll ask my clients is what can I do to provide a feeling of safety here for you to let you know that I'm going to handle what you tell me. In a healthy way and something that would feel safe for you. There are therapists and I've told people this. If you have a therapist who tells you, who uses either of these two words, which are like nails going down a chalkboard for me, resistance and withholding.Katherine: If they tell you that Rachel: you are resisting or you're being resistant to this process or you're withholding information from them. Right. Just because you're saying, yeah, I don't know if I feel like force. Yes. Yes. Katherine: And it also indicates that they're almost taking offense. that the client doesn't trust them.And someone who is aware of this experience will know it is going [00:41:00] to take a lot for this client to trust me. So I'm not going to force them and I'm not going to push them. I'm going to let them lead. And how much they want to share and even just say that, Ooh, I felt my internal haunches. Yes. Wow. Rachel: Right. And you, and that somehow the client also was told they need to make a commitment to this work. That this work is the thing that's going to change them. But that is just filled with too much ego and too much stress. And just let the person be and let them breathe and let them bring snacks.Just let them relax. Right. Katherine: . Maybe don't sip a glass of wine, but having a cup of tea is fine. Exactly. Yeah. I remember one one thing that I think my therapist said that felt me helps me feel really safe was I had mentioned sexual abuse pretty early on in our, our therapeutic relationship together.[00:42:00] And it was probably a good year before I was like talking about something else. And she was like a while back, you mentioned the sexual abuse. There's a chance that that has some you know, impact on what's happening here. Like, would you mind sharing about that a little more? And so I did. And then at the end of the session, she said, Do you want to bring this up again, like if it feels important to you or do you want me to ask you about it?Like, would you prefer to bring it up or would you prefer for me to ask you about it? And that just felt, I just felt very empowered with that. And just like, she was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave this in your hands. If you want to bring it up again and you want to talk about it, we will. If you. Want me to ask you about it?I can do that as well. And it just felt, you know, just very, it felt very empowering and it, and it definitely created a sense of safety for me. And I've [00:43:00] definitely like implemented that in, in with my own clients too. Just like, is this, is this something that you want to talk about more or do you want to just wait and bring it up?Later when you're ready and you just giving, yeah, just empowering the client and when they have been so disempowered and teaching them little ways that you're allowed to take this back, you're allowed to take this voice back. That's great. That is great. I, yeah. Is there anything else that you want to share about what a client might need or what a mental health first step?Professional might need in. Rachel: In this process, so starting with mental health professionals, there are going to be times like I've, I've gotten to a certain degree desensitized to hearing some pretty horrific stories. I was not at the beginning, of course, but it is good if you find that. You know, you want to be open to this [00:44:00] population.Sometimes they've been through really horrendous, horrendous things. And so it's good. It's important for you to take care of you. And if this really is too much for you, or if it's too triggering, cause you went through something similar, get more support for yourself. So that you can be able, right. Or you can choose if there are certain parts of this population you don't want to work with, that wouldn't be healthy for you.And it's okay to say that. It's okay to know that. And then it's good for you to have a resource list, because I never liked saying no to a client when I didn't have someone else to offer them, you know, like, how about try this person. And so then if you know that you're starting out and you're still very much affected by the things that you're being told.It is good to have at least three or four other names to refer people to for those cases and really, you know, again, you know, really make sure that you feel protected along the way until you get [00:45:00] maybe a little more able or desensitized. For clients. I think it's really good to know that, at least the way I talk about it that.They're the ones having the power in that space, and they might not know it, but I will let people know that like I make sure it's where it might. I'm not at all I don't have OCD traits sometimes I wish I had more of them in my house would be cleaner. But Right. But, I measure the furniture in my office, which is a weird thing. That might sound weird, but I make sure that my therapy chair isn't higher than the other chairs or the couch. Like I want us literally to be seeing eye to eye that we are equals here. And not lording over them just because I'm in my chair, you know, I don't have power.I will tell clients that I'm going to provide for them. My 31, 32 years of experience, but that they're hiring me, they're in charge. If I'm not giving them what they want, [00:46:00] they don't have to stay. It's like if you take your car to a mechanic and they don't fix the problem, go somewhere else. Or say, this is actually not what I'm needing.I'm needing more of this. Like, guide me to know what you would like, and then maybe I can provide that with more clarity, and we can work on defining what might be helpful here. But really, you can call the shots. And you can, you know, you can cancel your next appointment and that's okay, if you have stuff to do you can, I think it's also important when someone has been involved in a cult, sometimes they get very attached to the next person who is guiding them and leading them and they can get dependent.And it is my job, I think, to be a transitional object. And it's fine if people want to be dependent on me for a time, but I will say at some point, even though I know you're calling me to ask me what decision you should make about something, I would love it [00:47:00] if you, if we could work together where you will feel confident being the one where you can ask yourself that question and feel good about the answer you give yourself and trust it.So I can be that person for a while. But part of the goal here will be to hand the baton back to you, you know, I think it's an important message. Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And not just. I think that that for someone looking for a mental health professional that they can work with to, as you mentioned that collaboration and that mutuality and, and, and someone not showing up in that space and like I am the expert I know.This is what you need, et cetera, et cetera. That that's a good distinction to make. And, and you can typically sense that a little bit in that first meeting and that first consultation. Not always, but I feel like that's [00:48:00] something that that will come up. And. Yeah, and I also feel like it's, it's totally fine to ask a mental health professional in that initial consultation what are some books that you have read about this?What is, what is training that you have had on this? When you say that you're trauma informed. What does that mean exactly? Have you had training in that or is it just, you know what trauma is, you know, like, like having that you can ask those questions right out of the gate and and that's okay.And a good mental health professional is not going to get defensive. Rachel: Right. Even if people want to take a break, like I'll say sure. I mean, of course I don't even have to give them permission. They can take a break whenever they want, but if they want to see if they are able to take what they got from therapy and kind of just Use it on their own and, [00:49:00] and feel like they're able to call the shots in their life and see what they can do by themselves.I think it's really important to have people have that time. And then there's no shame in calling me and saying, well, something came up. And I realized I'm not equipped for that thing that just came up yet. So can I come back for a while? And yeah, I mean, you know where to reach me, you know, you have my number if you need to come back, great.But, and then when you're done with that, feel free to, you know, I also, I don't mind collaborating with other professionals. So if someone does EMDR, and I think that would be really good for. Client, then I'll, I will refer them or say, sure, they can go see someone else. The only time that becomes an issue is if someone else is seeing someone who I think is fraudulent in some way, like they're consulting with their psychic, you know, who's telling them that they don't need counseling.They just need to pay the psychic 10, 000 and they will free them of their negative energy. Okay. Then we're going to have a discussion [00:50:00] about that. But if it's someone healthy. Who is an adjunct. I think part of the wisdom that we have in this world is knowing who our resources are and utilizing them.And so I'm, I never feel in competition, but I will warn someone if I think they're getting advice from someone who is taking advantage of them. Katherine: Absolutely. Well, this has been amazing. And I know that. Both mental health professionals and folks looking for one are going to find this episode very, very helpful.If folks want to know more about you and the work that you do, where is the best place to find you? Rachel: Right. So you can listen to my podcast. It comes out each week. It's called indoctrination. It's on every platform, as far as I can tell, which is lovely. And I can be reached. All my information is on my website, Rachel Bernstein therapy.com. I'm Los Angeles based, but I work with people all over the world. And I have this support group. That's every other Wednesday [00:51:00] night on zoom. And I work with families with people who are trying to reach out to loved ones. Trying to plan a way to intervene if they feel they need to do that and doing just general counseling day to day in my office in Los Angeles but mostly still on Zoom.And so, yeah, there are a lot of places to reach me and I'm excited to have people reach out if they think it would be helpful. Is Katherine: your support group just kind of anyone can join at any time or do you have like Is it for like a certain amount of time and you Rachel: just right. Yeah, that's a great question.So it's open ended. But I just need to vet the person before because we have had issues with people just jumping on who were from a particular group and they were. spying basically on the group to see if former members of that group were coming to this and wanting to get their information. So I, as a safeguard talk to everyone [00:52:00] first to vet them before I give them the zoom link.And and then I do have right of refusal, like if someone was pretending to be someone turns out that they're not and they really are there to wreak havoc, they're no longer invited back, it needs to remain a safe place. And it really has, except for Scientology at the beginning. And that's why I have that.I have to have that interview process now because of them. But it's been great and it's been safe and it's a really nice feeling, nice kind of supportive, collaborative feeling in that group. But yeah, so people can join at any time. And it, people come when they come. It's very open ended and which I think people.Value that there isn't the expectation and I'm not going to contact them. Like what was wrong? How come you didn't Katherine: come? Yeah, that's great. And then one final thing you mentioned a [00:53:00] university that has a master's degree about coercive control I'd love to Drop that in the show notes as well. What was Rachel: the university?University of Salford. It's in England. And It's S A L F O R D. They have a program in coercive control. Katherine: Alright, I will look that up and I will make sure that makes it in the show notes. Thank you so much for Rachel: being here. Yes, thank you. Thanks for interviewing me. It was lovely to talk to you.

Rachel Dines, Head of Product and Technical Marketing at Chronosphere, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss why creating a cloud-native observability strategy is so critical, and the challenges that come with both defining and accomplishing that strategy to fit your current and future observability needs. Rachel explains how Chronosphere is taking an open-source approach to observability, and why it's more important than ever to acknowledge that the stakes and costs are much higher when it comes to observability in the cloud. About RachelRachel leads product and technical marketing for Chronosphere. Previously, Rachel wore lots of marketing hats at CloudHealth (acquired by VMware), and before that, she led product marketing for cloud-integrated storage at NetApp. She also spent many years as an analyst at Forrester Research. Outside of work, Rachel tries to keep up with her young son and hyper-active dog, and when she has time, enjoys crafting and eating out at local restaurants in Boston where she's based.Links Referenced: Chronosphere: https://chronosphere.io/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rdines/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Today's featured guest episode is brought to us by our friends at Chronosphere, and they have also brought us Rachel Dines, their Head of Product and Solutions Marketing. Rachel, great to talk to you again.Rachel: Hi, Corey. Yeah, great to talk to you, too.Corey: Watching your trajectory has been really interesting, just because starting off, when we first started, I guess, learning who each other were, you were working at CloudHealth which has since become VMware. And I was trying to figure out, huh, the cloud runs on money. How about that? It feels like it was a thousand years ago, but neither one of us is quite that old.Rachel: It does feel like several lifetimes ago. You were just this snarky guy with a few followers on Twitter, and I was trying to figure out what you were doing mucking around with my customers [laugh]. Then [laugh] we kind of both figured out what we're doing, right?Corey: So, speaking of that iterative process, today, you are at Chronosphere, which is an observability company. We would have called it a monitoring company five years ago, but now that's become an insult after the observability war dust has settled. So, I want to talk to you about something that I've been kicking around for a while because I feel like there's a gap somewhere. Let's say that I build a crappy web app—because all of my web apps inherently are crappy—and it makes money through some mystical form of alchemy. And I have a bunch of users, and I eventually realize, huh, I should probably have a better observability story than waiting for the phone to ring and a customer telling me it's broken.So, I start instrumenting various aspects of it that seem to make sense. Maybe I go too low level, like looking at all the discs on every server to tell me if they're getting full or not, like their ancient servers. Maybe I just have a Pingdom equivalent of is the website up enough to respond to a packet? And as I wind up experiencing different failure modes and getting yelled at by different constituencies—in my own career trajectory, my own boss—you start instrumenting for all those different kinds of breakages, you start aggregating the logs somewhere and the volume gets bigger and bigger with time. But it feels like it's sort of a reactive process as you stumble through that entire environment.And I know it's not just me because I've seen this unfold in similar ways in a bunch of different companies. It feels to me, very strongly, like it is something that happens to you, rather than something you set about from day one with a strategy in mind. What's your take on an effective way to think about strategy when it comes to observability?Rachel: You just nailed it. That's exactly the kind of progression that we so often see. And that's what I really was excited to talk with you about today—Corey: Oh, thank God. I was worried for a minute there that you'd be like, “What the hell are you talking about? Are you just, like, some sort of crap engineer?” And, “Yes, but it's mean of you to say it.” But yeah, what I'm trying to figure out is there some magic that I just was never connecting? Because it always feels like you're in trouble because the site's always broken, and oh, like, if the disk fills up, yeah, oh, now we're going to start monitoring to make sure the disk doesn't fill up. Then you wind up getting barraged with alerts, and no one wins, and it's an uncomfortable period of time.Rachel: Uncomfortable period of time. That is one very polite way to put it. I mean, I will say, it is very rare to find a company that actually sits down and thinks, “This is our observability strategy. This is what we want to get out of observability.” Like, you can think about a strategy and, like, the old school sense, and you know, as an industry analyst, so I'm going to have to go back to, like, my roots at Forrester with thinking about, like, the people, and the process, and the technology.But really what the bigger component here is like, what's the business impact? What do you want to get out of your observability platform? What are you trying to achieve? And a lot of the time, people have thought, “Oh, observability strategy. Great, I'm just going to buy a tool. That's it. Like, that's my strategy.”And I hate to bring it to you, but buying tools is not a strategy. I'm not going to say, like, buy this tool. I'm not even going to say, “Buy Chronosphere.” That's not a strategy. Well, you should buy Chronosphere. But that's not a strategy.Corey: Of course. I'm going to throw the money by the wheelbarrow at various observability vendors, and hope it solves my problem. But if that solved the problem—I've got to be direct—I've never spoken to those customers.Rachel: Exactly. I mean, that's why this space is such a great one to come in and be very disruptive in. And I think, back in the days when we were running in data centers, maybe even before virtual machines, you could probably get away with not having a monitoring strategy—I'm not going to call it observability; it's not we call the back then—you could get away with not having a strategy because what was the worst that was going to happen, right? It wasn't like there was a finite amount that your monitoring bill could be, there was a finite amount that your customer impact could be. Like, you're paying the penny slots, right?We're not on the penny slots anymore. We're in the $50 craps table, and it's Las Vegas, and if you lose the game, you're going to have to run down the street without your shirt. Like, the game and the stakes have changed, and we're still pretending like we're playing penny slots, and we're not anymore.Corey: That's a good way of framing it. I mean, I still remember some of my biggest observability challenges were building highly available rsyslog clusters so that you could bounce a member and not lose any log data because some of that was transactionally important. And we've gone beyond that to a stupendous degree, but it still feels like you don't wind up building this into the application from day one. More's the pity because if you did, and did that intelligently, that opens up a whole world of possibilities. I dream of that changing where one day, whenever you start to build an app, oh, and we just push the button and automatically instrument with OTel, so you instrument the thing once everywhere it makes sense to do it, and then you can do your vendor selection and what you said were decisions later in time. But these days, we're not there.Rachel: Well, I mean, and there's also the question of just the legacy environment and the tech debt. Even if you wanted to, the—actually I was having a beer yesterday with a friend who's a VP of Engineering, and he's got his new environment that they're building with observability instrumented from the start. How beautiful. They've got OTel, they're going to have tracing. And then he's got his legacy environment, which is a hot mess.So, you know, there's always going to be this bridge of the old and the new. But this was where it comes back to no matter where you're at, you can stop and think, like, “What are we doing and why?” What is the cost of this? And not just cost in dollars, which I know you and I could talk about very deeply for a long period of time, but like, the opportunity costs. Developers are working on stuff that they could be working on something that's more valuable.Or like the cost of making people work round the clock, trying to troubleshoot issues when there could be an easier way. So, I think it's like stepping back and thinking about cost in terms of dollar sense, time, opportunity, and then also impact, and starting to make some decisions about what you're going to do in the future that's different. Once again, you might be stuck with some legacy stuff that you can't really change that much, but [laugh] you got to be realistic about where you're at.Corey: I think that that is a… it's a hard lesson to be very direct, in that, companies need to learn it the hard way, for better or worse. Honestly, this is one of the things that I always noticed in startup land, where you had a whole bunch of, frankly, relatively early-career engineers in their early-20s, if not younger. But then the ops person was always significantly older because the thing you actually want to hear from your ops person, regardless of how you slice it, is, “Oh, yeah, I've seen this kind of problem before. Here's how we fixed it.” Or even better, “Here's the thing we're doing, and I know how that's going to become a problem. Let's fix it before it does.” It's the, “What are you buying by bringing that person in?” “Experience, mostly.”Rachel: Yeah, that's an interesting point you make, and it kind of leads me down this little bit of a side note, but a really interesting antipattern that I've been seeing in a lot of companies is that more seasoned ops person, they're the one who everyone calls when something goes wrong. Like, they're the one who, like, “Oh, my God, I don't know how to fix it. This is a big hairy problem,” I call that one ops person, or I call that very experienced person. That experience person then becomes this huge bottleneck into solving problems that people don't really—they might even be the only one who knows how to use the observability tool. So, if we can't find a way to democratize our observability tooling a little bit more so, like, just day-to-day engineers, like, more junior engineers, newer ones, people who are still ramping, can actually use the tool and be successful, we're going to have a big problem when these ops people walk out the door, maybe they retire, maybe they just get sick of it. We have these massive bottlenecks in organizations, whether it's ops or DevOps or whatever, that I see often exacerbated by observability tools. Just a side note.Corey: Yeah. On some level, it feels like a lot of these things can be fixed with tooling. And I'm not going to say that tools aren't important. You ever tried to implement observability by hand? It doesn't work. There have to be computers somewhere in the loop, if nothing else.And then it just seems to devolve into a giant swamp of different companies, doing different things, taking different approaches. And, on some level, whenever you read the marketing or hear the stories any of these companies tell you also to normalize it from translating from whatever marketing language they've got into something that comports with the reality of your own environment and seeing if they align. And that feels like it is so much easier said than done.Rachel: This is a noisy space, that is for sure. And you know, I think we could go out to ten people right now and ask those ten people to define observability, and we would come back with ten different definitions. And then if you throw a marketing person in the mix, right—guilty as charged, and I know you're a marketing person, too, Corey, so you got to take some of the blame—it gets mucky, right? But like I said a minute ago, the answer is not tools. Tools can be part of the strategy, but if you're just thinking, “I'm going to buy a tool and that's going to solve my problem,” you're going to end up like this company I was talking to recently that has 25 different observability tools.And not only do they have 25 different observability tools, what's worse is they have 25 different definitions for their SLOs and 25 different names for the same metric. And to be honest, it's just a mess. I'm not saying, like, go be Draconian and, you know, tell all the engineers, like, “You can only use this tool [unintelligible 00:10:34] use that tool,” you got to figure out this kind of balance of, like, hands-on, hands-off, you know? How much do you centralize, how much do you push and standardize? Otherwise, you end up with just a huge mess.Corey: On some level, it feels like it was easier back in the days of building it yourself with Nagios because there's only one answer, and it sucks, unless you want to start going down the world of HP OpenView. Which step one: hire a 50-person team to manage OpenView. Okay, that's not going to solve my problem either. So, let's get a little more specific. How does Chronosphere approach this?Because historically, when I've spoken to folks at Chronosphere, there isn't that much of a day one story, in that, “I'm going to build a crappy web app. Let's instrument it for Chronosphere.” There's a certain, “You must be at least this tall to ride,” implicit expectation built into the product just based upon its origins. And I'm not saying that doesn't make sense, but it also means there's really no such thing as a greenfield build out for you either.Rachel: Well, yes and no. I mean, I think there's no green fields out there because everyone's doing something for observability, or monitoring, or whatever you want to call it, right? Whether they've got Nagios, whether they've got the Dog, whether they've got something else in there, they have some way of introspecting their systems, right? So, one of the things that Chronosphere is built on, that I actually think this is part of something—a way you might think about building out an observability strategy as well, is this concept of control and open-source compatibility. So, we only can collect data via open-source standards. You have to send this data via Prometheus, via Open Telemetry, it could be older standards, like, you know, statsd, Graphite, but we don't have any proprietary instrumentation.And if I was making a recommendation to somebody building out their observability strategy right now, I would say open, open, open, all day long because that gives you a huge amount of flexibility in the future. Because guess what? You know, you might put together an observability strategy that seems like it makes sense for right now—actually, I was talking to a B2B SaaS company that told me that they made a choice a couple of years ago on an observability tool. It seemed like the right choice at the time. They were growing so fast, they very quickly realized it was a terrible choice.But now, it's going to be really hard for them to migrate because it's all based on proprietary standards. Now, of course, a few years ago, they didn't have the luxury of Open Telemetry and all of these, but now that we have this, we can use these to kind of future-proof our mistakes. So, that's one big area that, once again, both my recommendation and happens to be our approach at Chronosphere.Corey: I think that that's a fair way of viewing it. It's a constant challenge, too, just because increasingly—you mentioned the Dog earlier, for example—I will say that for years, I have been asked whether or not at The Duckbill Group, we look at Azure bills or GCP bills. Nope, we are pure AWS. Recently, we started to hear that same inquiry specifically around Datadog, to the point where it has become a board-level concern at very large companies. And that is a challenge, on some level.I don't deviate from my typical path of I fix AWS bills, and that's enough impossible problems for one lifetime, but there is a strong sense of you want to record as much as possible for a variety of excellent reasons, but there's an implicit cost to doing that, and in many cases, the cost of observability becomes a massive contributor to the overall cost. Netflix has said in talks before that they're effectively an observability company that also happens to stream movies, just because it takes so much effort, engineering, and raw computing resources in order to get that data do something actionable with it. It's a hard problem.Rachel: It's a huge problem, and it's a big part of why I work at Chronosphere, to be honest. Because when I was—you know, towards the tail end at my previous company in cloud cost management, I had a lot of customers coming to me saying, “Hey, when are you going to tackle our Dog or our New Relic or whatever?” Similar to the experience you're having now, Corey, this was happening to me three, four years ago. And I noticed that there is definitely a correlation between people who are having these really big challenges with their observability bills and people that were adopting, like Kubernetes, and microservices and cloud-native. And it was around that time that I met the Chronosphere team, which is exactly what we do, right? We focus on observability for these cloud-native environments where observability data just goes, like, wild.We see 10X 20X as much observability data and that's what's driving up these costs. And yeah, it is becoming a board-level concern. I mean, and coming back to the concept of strategy, like if observability is the second or third most expensive item in your engineering bill—like, obviously, cloud infrastructure, number one—number two and number three is probably observability. How can you not have a strategy for that? How can this be something the board asks you about, and you're like, “What are we trying to get out of this? What's our purpose?” “Uhhhh… troubleshooting?”Corey: Right because it turns into business metrics as well. It's not just about is the site up or not. There's a—like, one of the things that always drove me nuts not just in the observability space, but even in cloud costing is where, okay, your costs have gone up this week so you get a frowny face, or it's in red, like traffic light coloring. Cool, but for a lot of architectures and a lot of customers, that's because you're doing a lot more volume. That translates directly into increased revenues, increased things you care about. You don't have the position or the context to say, “That's good,” or, “That's bad.” It simply is. And you can start deriving business insight from that. And I think that is the real observability story that I think has largely gone untold at tech conferences, at least.Rachel: It's so right. I mean, spending more on something is not inherently bad if you're getting more value out of it. And it definitely a challenge on the cloud cost management side. “My costs are going up, but my revenue is going up a lot faster, so I'm okay.” And I think some of the plays, like you know, we put observability in this box of, like, it's for low-level troubleshooting, but really, if you step back and think about it, there's a lot of larger, bigger picture initiatives that observability can contribute to in an org, like digital transformation. I know that's a buzzword, but, like that is a legit thing that a lot of CTOs are out there thinking about. Like, how do we, you know, get out of the tech debt world, and how do we get into cloud-native?Maybe it's developer efficiency. God, there's a lot of people talking about developer efficiency. Last week at KubeCon, that was one of the big, big topics. I mean, and yeah, what [laugh] what about cost savings? To me, we've put observability in a smaller box, and it needs to bust out.And I see this also in our customer base, you know? Customers like DoorDash use observability, not just to look at their infrastructure and their applications, but also look at their business. At any given minute, they know how many Dashers are on the road, how many orders are being placed, cut by geos, down to the—actually down to the second, and they can use that to make decisions.Corey: This is one of those things that I always found a little strange coming from the world of running systems in large [unintelligible 00:17:28] environments to fixing AWS bills. There's nothing that even resembles a fast, reactive response in the world of AWS billing. You wind up with a runaway bill, they're going to resolve that over a period of weeks, on Seattle business hours. If you wind up spinning something up that creates a whole bunch of very expensive drivers behind your bill, it's going to take three days, in most cases, before that starts showing up anywhere that you can reasonably expect to get at it. The idea of near real time is a lie unless you want to start instrumenting everything that you're doing to trap the calls and then run cost extrapolation from there. That's hard to do.Observability is a very different story, where latencies start to matter, where being able to get leading indicators of certain events—be a technical or business—start to be very important. But it seems like it's so hard to wind up getting there from where most people are. Because I know we like to talk dismissively about the past, but let's face it, conference-ware is the stuff we're the proudest of. The reality is the burning dumpster of regret in our data centers that still also drives giant piles of revenue, so you can't turn it off, nor would you want to, but you feel bad about it as a result. It just feels like it's such a big leap.Rachel: It is a big leap. And I think the very first step I would say is trying to get to this point of clarity and being honest with yourself about where you're at and where you want to be. And sometimes not making a choice is a choice, right, as well. So, sticking with the status quo is making a choice. And so, like, as we get into things like the holiday season right now, and I know there's going to be people that are on-call 24/7 during the holidays, potentially, to keep something that's just duct-taped together barely up and running, I'm making a choice; you're make a choice to do that. So, I think that's like the first step is the kind of… at least acknowledging where you're at, where you want to be, and if you're not going to make a change, just understanding the cost and being realistic about it.Corey: Yeah, being realistic, I think, is one of the hardest challenges because it's easy to wind up going for the aspirational story of, “In the future when everything's great.” Like, “Okay, cool. I appreciate the need to plant that flag on the hill somewhere. What's the next step? What can we get done by the end of this week that materially improves us from where we started the week?” And I think that with the aspirational conference-ware stories, it's hard to break that down into things that are actionable, that don't feel like they're going to be an interminable slog across your entire existing environment.Rachel: No, I get it. And for things like, you know, instrumenting and adding tracing and adding OTEL, a lot of the time, the return that you get on that investment is… it's not quite like, “I put a dollar in, I get a dollar out,” I mean, something like tracing, you can't get to 60% instrumentation and get 60% of the value. You need to be able to get to, like, 80, 90%, and then you'll get a huge amount of value. So, it's sort of like you're trudging up this hill, you're charging up this hill, and then finally you get to the plateau, and it's beautiful. But that hill is steep, and it's long, and it's not pretty. And I don't know what to say other than there's a plateau near the top. And those companies that do this well really get a ton of value out of it. And that's the dream, that we want to help customers get up that hill. But yeah, I'm not going to lie, the hill can be steep.Corey: One thing that I find interesting is there's almost a bimodal distribution in companies that I talk to. On the one side, you have companies like, I don't know, a Chronosphere is a good example of this. Presumably you have a cloud bill somewhere and the majority of your cloud spend will be on what amounts to a single application, probably in your case called, I don't know, Chronosphere. It shares the name of the company. The other side of that distribution is the large enterprise conglomerates where they're spending, I don't know, $400 million a year on cloud, but their largest workload is 3 million bucks, and it's just a very long tail of a whole bunch of different workloads, applications, teams, et cetera.So, what I'm curious about from the Chronosphere perspective—or the product you have, not the ‘you' in this metaphor, which gets confusing—is, it feels easier to instrument a Chronosphere-like company that has a primary workload that is the massive driver of most things and get that instrumented and start getting an observability story around that than it does to try and go to a giant company and, “Okay, 1500 teams need to all implement this thing that are all going in different directions.” How do you see it playing out among your customer base, if that bimodal distribution holds up in your world?Rachel: It does and it doesn't. So, first of all, for a lot of our customers, we often start with metrics. And starting with metrics means Prometheus. And Prometheus has hundreds of exporters. It is basically built into Kubernetes. So, if you're running Kubernetes, getting Prometheus metrics out, actually not a very big lift. So, we find that we start with Prometheus, we start with getting metrics in, and we can get a lot—I mean, customers—we have a lot of customers that use us just for metrics, and they get a massive amount of value.But then once they're ready, they can start instrumenting for OTEL and start getting traces in as well. And yeah, in large organizations, it does tend to be one team, one application, one service, one department that kind of goes at it and gets all that instrumented. But I've even seen very large organizations, when they get their act together and decide, like, “No, we're doing this,” they can get OTel instrumented fairly quickly. So, I guess it's, like, a lining up. It's more of a people issue than a technical issue a lot of the time.Like, getting everyone lined up and making sure that like, yes, we all agree. We're on board. We're going to do this. But it's usually, like, it's a start small, and it doesn't have to be all or nothing. We also just recently added the ability to ingest events, which is actually a really beautiful thing, and it's very, very straightforward.It basically just—we connect to your existing other DevOps tools, so whether it's, like, a Buildkite, or a GitHub, or, like, a LaunchDarkly, and then anytime something happens in one of those tools, that gets registered as an event in Chronosphere. And then we overlay those events over your alerts. So, when an alert fires, then first thing I do is I go look at the alert page, and it says, “Hey, someone did a deploy five minutes ago,” or, “There was a feature flag flipped three minutes ago,” I solved the problem right then. I don't think of this as—there's not an all or nothing nature to any of this stuff. Yes, tracing is a little bit of a—you know, like I said, it's one of those things where you have to make a lot of investment before you get a big reward, but that's not the case in all areas of observability.Corey: Yeah. I would agree. Do you find that there's a significant easy, early win when customers start adopting Chronosphere? Because one of the problems that I've found, especially with things that are holistic, and as you talk about tracing, well, you need to get to a certain point of coverage before you see value. But human psychology being what it is, you kind of want to be able to demonstrate, oh, see, the Meantime To Dopamine needs to come down, to borrow an old phrase. Do you find that some of there's some easy wins that start to help people to see the light? Because otherwise, it just feels like a whole bunch of work for no discernible benefit to them.Rachel: Yeah, at least for the Chronosphere customer base, one of the areas where we're seeing a lot of traction this year is in optimizing the costs, like, coming back to the cost story of their overall observability bill. So, we have this concept of the control plane in our product where all the data that we ingest hits the control plane. At that point, that customer can look at the data, analyze it, and decide this is useful, this is not useful. And actually, not just decide that, but we show them what's useful, what's not useful. What's being used, what's high cardinality, but—and high cost, but maybe no one's touched it.And then we can make decisions around aggregating it, dropping it, combining it, doing all sorts of fancy things, changing the—you know, downsampling it. We can do this, on the trace side, we can do it both head based and tail based. On the metrics side, it's as it hits the control plane and then streams out. And then they only pay for the data that we store. So typically, customers are—they come on board and immediately reduce their observability dataset by 60%. Like, that's just straight up, that's the average.And we've seen some customers get really aggressive, get up to, like, in the 90s, where they realize we're only using 10% of this data. Let's get rid of the rest of it. We're not going to pay for it. So, paying a lot less helps in a lot of ways. It also helps companies get more coverage of their observability. It also helps customers get more coverage of their overall stack. So, I was talking recently with an autonomous vehicle driving company that recently came to us from the Dog, and they had made some really tough choices and were no longer monitoring their pre-prod environments at all because they just couldn't afford to do it anymore. It's like, well, now they can, and we're still saving the money.Corey: I think that there's also the downstream effect of the money saving to that, for example, I don't fix observability bills directly. But, “Huh, why is your CloudWatch bill through the roof?” Or data egress charges in some cases? It's oh because your observability vendor is pounding the crap out of those endpoints and pulling all your log data across the internet, et cetera. And that tends to mean, oh, yeah, it's not just the first-order effect; it's the second and third and fourth-order effects this winds up having. It becomes almost a holistic challenge. I think that trying to put observability in its own bucket, on some level—when you're looking at it from a cost perspective—starts to be a, I guess, a structure that makes less and less sense in the fullness of time.Rachel: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that just looking at the bill from your vendor is one very small piece of the overall cost you're incurring. I mean, all of the things you mentioned, the egress, the CloudWatch, the other services, it's impacting, what about the people?Corey: Yeah, it sure is great that your team works for free.Rachel: [laugh]. Exactly, right? I know, and it makes me think a little bit about that viral story about that particular company with a certain vendor that had a $65 million per year observability bill. And that impacted not just them, but, like, it showed up in both vendors' financial filings. Like, how did you get there? How did you get to that point? And I think this all comes back to the value in the ROI equation. Yes, we can all sit in our armchairs and be like, “Well, that was dumb,” but I know there are very smart people out there that just got into a bad situation by kicking the can down the road on not thinking about the strategy.Corey: Absolutely. I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me about, I guess, the bigger picture questions rather than the nuts and bolts of a product. I like understanding the overall view that drives a lot of these things. I don't feel I get to have enough of those conversations some weeks, so thank you for humoring me. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to go?Rachel: So, they should definitely check out the Chronosphere website. Brand new beautiful spankin' new website: chronosphere.io. And you can also find me on LinkedIn. I'm not really on the Twitters so much anymore, but I'd love to chat with you on LinkedIn and hear what you have to say.Corey: And we will, of course, put links to all of that in the [show notes 00:28:26]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. It's appreciated.Rachel: Thank you, Corey. Always fun.Corey: Rachel Dines, Head of Product and Solutions Marketing at Chronosphere. This has been a featured guest episode brought to us by our friends at Chronosphere, and I'm Corey Quinn. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry and insulting comment that I will one day read once I finished building my highly available rsyslog system to consume it with.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business, and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Anxiety, it has been said, is ubiquitous. We all experience it and in its many manifestations. On a purely psychological level, one can never get to the heart or source of this feeling and its accompanying isolation. Often we find ourselves desperate to free ourselves from its grip. Therefore, we either immerse ourselves in the things of this world and maintain the illusion of security or we become paralyzed by it completely.  The desert fathers including St. John Climacus, however, remind us that through the incarnation everything about what it is to be a human being has been assumed and embraced by our Lord, including this experience that often plagues our existence. Christ is the source of all healing and in and through our immersion in His life through the sacraments and prayer we begin to enter into the peace of the kingdom. We are commanded in the Scriptures not to have any anxiety at all. However, this is not simply a command but a promise of grace and strength. If we hold on to our faith in the Lord, if we truly hope in his promises, then all anxiety and fear will flee.  To call upon the name of Jesus is to flog our enemies; meaning not only the temptations that come to us from the demons, but the fears that they would insert into our minds and hearts.  To mourn over one's sin, to acknowledge the brevity of our life, is the set aside all illusion and false security. It leads us to cling to Christ who is life and love. So often we too like the disciples are foolish and slow of heart to believe. Yet in Christ even the most improbable of things becomes possible - that in the soul dedicated to God fear and cowardice disappears. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:08:02 FrDavid Abernethy: page 163 Step 21   00:19:55 LauraLeigh: In #2, is he saying that this "old soul" should know better than to give in to cowardice?   00:23:10 Eric Ewanco: Fear is a lack of trust in God   00:23:13 Louise: Fear arises when we read a situation as a threat, while boldness arises when we read a situation as a challenge. With Christ, maybe we should see  all situations as challenges which we can face with Him.   00:24:09 Cindy Moran: Pray for me I lost my wallet today Yes I am anxious.   00:25:22 Rebecca Thérèse: I'll pray for you Cindy   00:25:26 LauraLeigh: Reacted to "I'll pray for you Ci..." with

“I worked with all of these different things for about a year and a half. And when I had another blood test, those autoimmune antibodies were gone,” shares Rachel Tudor, True Nature Movement Specialist. Rachel is a former ballet dancer turned quantum practitioner and internationally recognized presenter on bio tensegrity and fascia. In 2021, her health went completely haywire due to an adverse reaction to a heavily recommended pharmaceutical injection. Discovering the circadian lifestyle and understanding the gradual healing process of the body ultimately gave Rachel the quantum health strategies necessary to heal from her body's debilitating autoimmune reaction. In this episode, Rachel explains how she paired holistic movement with quantum biology to recover her health. When Rachel's autoimmune nightmare began, she was experiencing a multitude of symptoms including severe and immobilizing vertigo, neurological changes that mimicked a TBI, histamine reactivity, chronic pain, and extreme fatigue. She tried nearly every suggestion to heal herself, from supplements to medications, but she continued to get worse and worse. Everything started to change when Rachel discovered quantum health and began following a circadian lifestyle. Since she was fully immobile, her husband carried her outside daily for UVA and UVB exposure, where she engaged in healing frequencies through wiggling her fingers and humming. After months of doing this, she became strong enough to return to Jin Shin Jyutsu, an energy healing art that ended up dramatically improving her vertigo. She understood that repatterning the fascia in her body would take time and consistency. Sticking to the circadian lifestyle and combining it with holistic movement ultimately paid off, healing her body's autoimmune reaction and drastically improving her quality of life. It takes time to change your body's habits and the patterning of your fascia. By leveraging your external environment and aligning your lifestyle to your natural biology, you can help move the repatterning process along. Even though Rachel's autoimmune reaction was largely a mystery to doctors and there was very little information available on how to treat it, she did not give up. Instead, she fully committed to living a circadian lifestyle and applied quantum health modalities to the healing power of movement, stunning her doctors with a complete reversal of her autoimmune dysfunction.  Quotes “You're just one whole integrated being, and that's all you've ever been.” (6:33-6:37 | Rachel)  “It's not like, go outside and do this for a week and bam, you'll be better…slowly but surely, like I was saying, things started to improve.” (39:54-40:29 | Rachel)  “The efficacy of those kinds of modalities is increased if you're also living a circadian life.” (41:06-41:15 | Rachel) “You can be looking at six months to two years to really bring on long lasting change in terms of the structure of your fascia.” (44:46-44:58 | Rachel) “I worked with all of these different things for about a year and a half. And when I had another blood test, those autoimmune antibodies were gone.” (55:13-55:25 | Rachel)   Links Connect with Rachel Tudor: Website: https://www.truenaturemvmt.com/ Instagram: @r_tudor   To find a practitioner who understand the health principles of quantum biology: www.quantumbiologycollective.org    To take our 8 week practitioner certification in the science of quantum biology so that you can add it to your existing area of expertise: www.appliedquantumbiology.com    Follow on Twitter, Instagram & Facebook: @quantumhealthtv    Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Rachel is a pediatric dentist who owns her own practice in Pensacola, Florida. She fought for an empowering second birth experience even with an initial diagnosis of complete placenta previa. When her placenta thankfully moved, Rachel was cleared to go for her VBAC and she was all in!Rachel drove six hours to be able to birth with the provider she knew would best support her VBAC. With her doula and supportive family by her side, Rachel achieved the beautiful birth she envisioned. Additional LinksHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Women of strength, you are listening to The VBAC Link and I cannot wait for today's story. Reading this story, there are so many twists. Not even twists I should say, but factors to this story. We have our friend Rachel telling it from Florida so welcome, Rachel. Rachel: Thank you so much. I'm so, so honored to be on this podcast. I can't believe I'm actually getting to share this amazing journey with you guys so thank you for having me. Meagan: We are honored that you are here with us. Yeah. I feel like there are quite a few things within your story. Things like baby's position, placenta previa which we are going to talk a lot about at the end, even dental stuff, close duration, so there are a lot of things where I feel like people can relate to this story. Review of the WeekI will read a review and then we will get right into your beautiful story. Today's reviewer is haley222222. It says, “I can't recommend enough. I found this podcast shortly after my C-section in 2019 with my first and it has helped me so much. My doctor had told me that I was only going to be able to have four children because I was going to have C-sections from here on out. This podcast opened my eyes to the possibilities I didn't have a clue about and I had options.” Oh, I just scrolled, and okay. Here we go. It says, “I was able to find providers that I trusted and who actually believed in me. I prepared for my VBAC and unfortunately, my first VBAC was a stillborn at 26 weeks, second baby boy in October of 2022.” So sorry to hear that, Haley. It says, “Although it was heartbreaking, it was truly an amazing experience and I can't wait to have another vaginal birth hopefully with a better outcome and a baby we can bring home. I am pregnant with my third now and I'm relistening to all of the episodes. I am so excited to do this. I am in the process of hiring a doula and we will be taking a birth course this time around. Thank you so much for creating this podcast and I'm so grateful for all that I have learned.” Well, Haley, thank you so much. Again, my condolences to you on your second and congrats on your third, and thank you so much for sharing your review. Rachel's StoriesMeagan: Okay, we have our friend Rachel. Like I said earlier, she is from Florida. So you are a dentist and you have your own clinic, is this right?Rachel: Yes. I am a pediatric dentist. I only work on children. We have a private practice in Pensacola, Florida which is the panhandle of Florida. It's lower Alabama, kind of LA but it's on that end of the spectrum, not south Florida. Meagan: Awesome. That is so exciting. So, so exciting. Rachel: Thank you. Meagan: Well, thank you so much for being with us. I would love to turn the time over to you to share this story and then at the end, we'll get into that placenta previa and some dental stuff. Rachel: I know, who would have thought that dentistry could be related to C-sections? Meagan: Who would have thought? Really, though. Rachel: I know. It's all related. Meagan: We never talk about it so I'm excited too. Rachel: Well, I guess I'll just get excited about my children journey. Again, I'm just so thankful that I get to talk on this podcast. I listen to you guys every single day when I was preparing for a VBAC and Meagan, what you're doing is changing so many people's lives. Like we talked about, I'm sure recording a podcast can get a little crazy like with any job that we do, but you really are making such a difference in so many people's lives so I really thank you for that. Meagan: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Rachel: Yes. So okay, my children journey I guess what you could say started in Gainesville. My husband and I were living in Gainesville. He was finishing up an orthodontic residency at that time and I was working as a pediatric dentist. I had just finished residency and I was working at a private practice. We became pregnant with our first baby. They said I had a subchorionic hematoma around 7 weeks and said, “Don't worry.” It's a pretty common thing I think. Meagan: It is. Rachel: I came back for a follow-up ultrasound anyway around 10 weeks or so and no heartbeat. We had a miscarriage. They gave me two options, either the misoprostol pill to pass the baby or the D&C.Meagan: Cytotec. Rachel: Yeah, or the D&C. After talking to a lot of people, I just decided to have the D&C. It seemed less emotionally scarring. Anyway, so we did that. Right around that time, the day before surgery, the whole COVID thing in 2020 started and they said that for some reason, dentists were considered non-essential so everything was shut down for the whole month of April. Meagan: What?!Rachel: I had never not worked my whole life. This was the most time I had ever had off ever so it was crazy. I was not working. I had scheduled the D&C. That morning, I had a 99-degree fever or something. My OB in Gainesville was amazing. The whole hospital staff was like, “Oh my gosh. She might have COVID. We can't do the surgery.” Yeah, so crazy. My OB had to vouch for me to say that I didn't have COVID and that we could still do the D&C anyway. I'm pretty sure I was the last elective surgery to have done and then after the date, literally I think it was March 20th, and the day after, they stopped doing elective surgeries and stuff. I was super thankful for that. It's Dr. Erin in Gainesville and she was just awesome. We had a miscarriage. It was a super tough time for me and my husband. I just remember praying and asking God to comfort us because we are Christians and I just really believe that God is close to the brokenhearted. The Bible says, “He's near to the brokenhearted.” It's still hard though because he's not here to comfort you physically. I just remember I was praying and there was this dove that came to our house and lived in our backyard. It was so crazy. For several weeks, he just made a nest on the ground.Meagan: That just gave me the chills. Rachel: It is. I'm telling you, I prayed so hard. He can comfort you but he's not going to give you a hug or something. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? So literally this dove came and lived in our yard. That dove was there. I'm not even kidding you. The day that I found out I was pregnant, the dove just left. We were like, “Where did that dove go? He was living in our yard and now he's not there.” That was the day I found out we were pregnant with our second baby, or our first baby. Meagan: Uh-uh. Wow. Rachel: It was so insane. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Rachel: Yes. That was the first crazy thing. I had wanted a puppy after the miscarriage and we had a really small courtyard so my husband was like, “Well, if we get a puppy, I'm getting a monkey.” I'm like, “No.” I was like, “Well if you really do want a monkey, I can look into finding us a monkey if you'll let me have a puppy.” He's like, “Okay, deal.” Well, he knows not to put anything past me after that because I found a monkey and we literally have a little squirrel monkey. His name is Rocko and we have a Maltipoo whose name is Remi. So the week after we got our monkey, that's when we found out we were pregnant again. I was like, “Now we have a monkey and this puppy and now we're going to have a baby.” That's how life goes. If you know me, that's just how my life goes. It's just like, the more fun, the better. Anyway, so I was pregnant with the second one. I also had a subchorionic hematoma in the beginning and Dr. Erin was like, “Okay, I know I told you not to worry about it last time but seriously it's usually not a big deal.” But you know, you're still worried because you have the same thinking. Meagan: Yeah, trigger back a little bit. Rachel: Exactly. So I was just a little worried about that, but I kept pressing forward. So then fast forward later, everything is healthy. Six months into the pregnancy, I found out that we got a great opportunity to move back to Pensacola which is where I'm from. It's about six hours away from Gainesville. It's near my home town. My parents live here. A pediatric dentist, Dr. Stu Bonnin was selling his dental practice in Pensacola so we decided to merge together and transition. I went there. I was probably about seven months pregnant when we moved to Pensacola. I was starting up. I'm seven months pregnant. I'm starting brand new seeing all of these patients I'm just getting to know. My husband started an orthodontic practice next door which is a dream come true. We have always wanted to do this. The doors opened up to where it could happen. Timing sometimes seems crazy but it just happened that way. I mean, I remember we moved here on December 24, 2020, so Christmas Eve. U-hauls are a lot cheaper then by the way. Our family had COVID so we weren't going to go see them anyway. I remember waking up on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day morning and I was sleeping on an air mattress. We had just bought our house and moved everything in. I'm like, “Wow. What a whirlwind. This is crazy.” So we moved halfway through. I'm a new business owner. So then I started seeing patients at about eight months pregnant. I'm trying to establish rapport with my new patients. I just decided it was in their best interest to work up until my due date. I worked up until my due date. At this point, I had no knowledge of birthing a baby at all which is my fault. I should have researched everything but there was just a lot going on. Meagan: Yeah. Don't put too much pressure on yourself there. Rachel: Knowing what I know now–Meagan: You had a lot of juggling pieces. Rachel: I know. Plus I was like, “I don't want to know how the baby gets here. I just want to know what to do after it gets here,” so I did a lot of Taking Cara Babies, reading how to get them to sleep through the night. I really wanted to breastfeed so I was focused on what to do when the baby gets here. Meagan: Which also is something that a lot of the time we forget to do. Rachel: I know. I know. It's all hard. So I worked up until my due date. I was expecting to be two weeks late for some reason because I was two weeks late as a baby. My husband was two weeks late and we were both first babies. I'm like, “It's going to be fine. I'll probably just be a little late.” A week passed and I had found an OB here. They did the BPP thing, the biophysical profile. Everything had been healthy. Nothing was out of the ordinary. She started talking about inducing me because I had borderline low amniotic fluid. That's the reason they gave me. So I guess amniotic fluid level from my understanding can be anywhere from 5 centimeters to 25 centimeters and mine was a 7. So she's like, “It's borderline low. The baby's not in distress but the older your placenta gets, the more likely that you'll have a stillbirth or you can have babies born with cerebral palsy and complications.”Meagan: Big words, very big words. Rachel: Yeah. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, well I don't want that.” I trust the doctor. I'm a doctor. I feel like I look out for people's best interests. I mean, I know I just deal with baby teeth but I truly want the best for my patients so I know she was probably recommending the same thing. All of that is not untrue, but anyways. Knowing what I know now, I'm just like, “What in the world?” She recommended that I be induced because of the borderline low amniotic fluid and that the longer time passes by, the increased chance of stillbirth. Because I had done zero birth education, I had nothing to really guide my decision-making process and my husband wasn't there because it was all COVID stuff. He couldn't come to any of the appointments so I was making these decisions on my own. I was just like, “Okay. We'll get induced. That's fine.” I only had a month off for maternity leave anyways, so I'm like, “Okay. It'll probably work out that the baby's born more on time.” Meagan: That you'll have some time. Rachel: Yeah, exactly. The day before, I just had this really bad feeling. I called the doctor's office and I was like, “Hey, is there any way we can postpone the induction?” I was really nervous. They were like, “No. This is the only time. We don't recommend that. This is the best thing.” I'm like, “Okay.” I got to the hospital. I started on, is it Cervadil?Meagan: Yeah, Cervadil. Rachel: The insertion pill thing. Meagan: So the pill is Cytotec and then there's the tampon-looking thing and that's Cervadil. Rachel: Okay. I think that might have been what that was. So yeah. I did that. I got to 2 centimeters dilated and they started the Pitocin. So then after the Pitocin, it was a gentle induction. The doctor I went to I guess is known for gentle inductions so that was good. I got to 2 centimeters dilated. Our daughter's name is Heidi. Her heart rate started dropping even this early on. I was only 2 centimeters dilated. Every time they turned the Pitocin up, it would drop. I was just like, “Just take me off of everything. Let's just wait.” The OB came in and she's like, “We've already had nonreassuring fetal heart rates.” I hope I'm using the correct words but I think that's what it is. Meagan: Correct. Rachel: It's just not looking good so we would recommend some kind of intervention at this point. I was like, “What about an epidural?” She was like, “Maybe you could use an epidural. It would help you relax and just speed things along.” So I got an epidural and then Heidi's heart rate dropped again. This just kept happening and I will never forget. There was a younger nurse. The doctor wasn't there. It was 2:00 AM and she came walking in the room. She said, “Hey, so the doctor just told us that we need to prep you for a C-section.” I'm just like, “What? A C-section? Excuse me? No one told me this was a possibility.” I had never even researched what that was. I never even knew that was a possibility. Meagan: A lot of us don't. Rachel: I mean, I'm stupid for not realizing that is a possibility, but at the same time, you're not planning on it. It's just an unplanned surgery. Meagan: Yeah. We go in thinking we're just going to have this baby which we do have a baby but we just don't envision it that way. Rachel: I know. I just truly wanted what was best for my baby. Meagan: Absolutely. Rachel: If it meant a C-section to save her life, then obviously that's what I would do but I was realizing this cascade of interventions was leading from one thing to another thing to another thing and I just was so upset. The OB got there and finally, my husband was like, “Whoa. Okay. What is going on here?” He talked to her and he was like, “Let's just take her off of everything and see how her heart rate is.” We literally asked her. We were like, “Listen, if you think our baby is going to lose oxygen or something dangerous where it's going to save her life to do a C-section, we will do a C-section, but if she is okay and we can work through–” the nurses were changing my position and the heart rate would get better. Sometimes I think the cord can just get compressed or things like that. She literally looked at us. I was really upset. I don't even know what I said. I was just really upset. But she looked at us and she was like, “Okay, yeah. The heart rate looks great. You're doing great. I'm okay with that. Let's just give it a little bit longer.” It was probably another 12 hours that we had done that. Long story short, the same thing happened again and after she gave me time, and at that point, I think I had progressed to 6 centimeters. I was like, “Okay, we're going to have this baby. This is looking good.” Even the nurse said that it was looking good. I think the final thing that happened is that I started running a fever and then when I ran a fever, the heart rate shot up and it was super high. Yeah, she was tachycardic. I'm like, “Yeah, she is not looking good.” At this point, it's been 72 hours. I mean, I have so many fluids. I've been on an IV. So we were like, “Okay, we really need to do this.” I was kind of expecting it at that point even though I was super upset and super sad. I was just kind of waving my little white flag. We did what we could and they prepped me for a C-section. It was the craziest thing I've ever experienced because everything went really well with the C-section. The OB was great with the C-section. All of the team was really fast. I kept saying, “I can still feel some pressure. Give me some more medicine. More, more, more.” I was so numb that my intercostal muscles were numb all the way up into my chest so it was kind of hard to breathe. I knew it was just because my muscles were numb so I was okay with it. It was so crazy because I was so happy. I heard my daughter cry so I knew she was healthy. I knew she was there. It was the best moment ever but at the same time, you're sad. Everybody that has talked on this podcast, you know the feeling of where you're so happy. Your baby is here. You're healthy. There could be way worse other things, but at the same time, it's just that this was not what I was expecting. It's crazy. Anyway, she had to go to the NICU because there was fluid in her lungs so she had to have help with oxygen and then she had to get IV antibiotics because there was suspected chorioamnionitis. Meagan: Because of the fever? Rachel: Yeah, because of the fever. So it wasn't proven, but they go ahead and put the baby on antibiotics before the results get back from pathology because it takes a while so they want to go ahead and get them on antibiotics just in case. It came back and it wasn't chorio so she had unnecessary antibiotics. But I get it. You have to have certain protocols in place. So she had to have that. She was in the NICU for just a couple of days. It wasn't bad. I was able to breastfeed. It was a struggle. You have to really make sure you're on a strict schedule when your baby is in the NICU. You have to go feed them and pump especially when your milk is coming in. So that was hard but we were able to do the breastfeeding which is good. Oh, Heidi had a lot of donor milk in the NICU because it was good that they gave her donor milk. I always joke around. I'm like, “She's going to have the best immune system because of all of the donor milk that she got.” Side note, whoever donates breastmilk, you guys are amazing. I just cannot believe that is a thing, so thank you to whoever donated breastmilk.Fast forward to the follow-up, everything is looking good after the C-section. Heidi is doing great. I'm so happy. I wanted to share this. I don't know if a lot of people have ever experienced this but I talked to my provider. I mean, I really liked her other than she suggested the induction. I just really wasn't that on board but she was like, “Yeah. In the future, you will definitely be a candidate for a VBAC.” But then I got this letter in the mail. I'm just going to read it. It says, “Dear Rachel, The patient/physician relationship is important in providing quality care. I feel your unacceptable behavior toward me and the hospital staff as well as your unwillingness to follow my recommendations for your safety and the safety of your baby has jeopardized our relationship. Therefore, this letter serves to notify you that I will not continue to be your provider.”Meagan: What?Rachel: I was so, so sad because I thought I followed her recommendation. She thinks I put my baby at jeopardy. If she thought my baby was at jeopardy, she should have told me that I should have had the C-section earlier. I just was so sad. I, as a physician, I'm not a physician but I'm a dentist and all of my patients, I try to give them both sides to everything. Not everybody is as informed as I am about teeth. Duh, we all don't know. That's why you go to a doctor for advice. Meagan: That's why you go to a specialist. Rachel: I try to give everybody two sides. I try to inform them and then they make the decision. I don't ever want to force someone into doing something that they don't want to do but also if someone doesn't take my recommendation, I'm not going to say, “Okay, you're dismissed from my practice.” I get that some people just don't feel comfortable treating certain people which is fine. I'm not bitter about that but I was super floored that she would dismiss me as a patient because I didn't take her recommendation to get a C-section in the first place. Meagan: You did and then you had a conversation and she said, “Yeah, I'm totally fine with it. Let's keep going.”Rachel: I had a doula with me, Ashley Andrews, she is amazing. She is my prayer warrior doula. She even said, “I don't think you're out of line, Rachel. I'm really confused.” Meagan: I'm sorry. Rachel: Anyways, not to harp on that but it was really sad. It was really for the best because I started looking at other providers anyway because I knew I wanted another baby. Okay, so here's the good part of the story. Dun, dun, dun. Nine months later, we found out we were having another baby. This time, it was a boy so I found a different provider in Pensacola that was okay with VBAC. It's really hard surprisingly to find someone that is super on board. It really is up to you to do the research and all of that. We have doctors. People think doctors are there to give you a magic pill and everything is solved. Doctors can't do anything if you don't make an effort on your end too. I feel like that's why there is so much diabetes and all of these things because you have to do some kind of work on your end too to educate yourself and realize that you can't just go to a doctor and expect them to fix all of your problems. I realized that and I'm like, “Okay, that's in every situation. I have to become educated myself.” I found you guys. I listened to your VBAC podcast literally every single day at lunch and I would cry on my lunch break. I'm such a loser. Meagan: You are not. These stories are amazing. Rachel: I would listen to these stories and I would just cry. I'm like, “Wow. This is so awesome.” My husband, I love him. He's so sweet. He's like, “You guys should make a podcast for husbands on how to deal with their wives when they have decided that they are going to have a VBAC,” because he's like, “All right, I've already accepted all of this stuff. It's fine.” Anyways, at 20 weeks I was diagnosed with complete placenta previa, not just partial. The placenta is completely covering your cervix. My OB here in Pensacola, the new one, was like, “It's highly unlikely that this is going to move. It's complete. It's very rare.” He started talking about placenta accreta and how sometimes it can even grow into the C-section scar and grow out into your bladder and stuff. I'm like, “Whoa.” I was so sad. I'm like, “Y'all, okay. I guess I'll just have another C-section. This is fine.” But then I was like, “Okay. God, you said in the Bible.” Matthew 17:20 says, “If you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there' and it will move and nothing will be impossible.” I'm like, “God if you can move mountains, I know that you can move this placenta. I know that nothing is impossible for you.” I just started praying. In the meantime, my sister who lives in Jacksonville had this great practice that helped her with her delivery. Full Circle Women's Care, I highly recommend. I also talked to a friend, Saundra Fetner, who had a VBAC with them. I talked to her about it and she was like, “Yes. You need to go there.” I had a Zoom conference or a telemedicine conference with Dr. Adams. She is the owner there, the OB there. She was like, “Okay, yeah. We even have some missionaries that will be in Africa and then fly here and deliver their baby here and go back.” She was like, “If you want to deliver here, that would be fine with me. You just see your provider in Pensacola and then when it gets time, you just make arrangements to stay in Jacksonville until you have the baby.” Meagan: Dual care. Rachel: Yeah, exactly. I was like, “If something crazy happens in Pensacola, then I have the provider here.” I talked to my provider here and he was completely okay with it. He was like, “Well, with the placenta previa, you might want to try to rent a private jet so you can get there really quick.” I'm like, “Okay, that's not going to happen but whatever.” He was okay with it. I didn't care. Dr. Adams by the way, just has such passion for what she does. If you don't have passion for what you do and you don't enjoy it, why are you doing it? She actually had a C-section with her first baby and she's an OB. So she's like, “I understand how medicine is there if you need it, but sometimes you need to let your body do what it was created to do.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, yes girl. Preach, preach. I'm going to come see you. I don't care that I have to drive six hours. I'm going to come here.” I scheduled a follow-up. Granted, it had only been two weeks since I had been diagnosed with placenta previa. Coming to the follow-up, I had another ultrasound and all of that at Full Circle Women's Care. My first appointment, my sister went with me and we were like, “Let's just not say anything. Let's not say that I had placenta previa. Let's just see what they say.” The ultrasound tech looked at everything and she was like, “Yeah, everything looks great. Your baby's healthy. We just might need to get one more little position of the head when you come back.” I'm like, “What?” So then I'm like, “Okay, well you don't see placenta previa or anything going on?” She's like, “No. The placenta is way over here. This is the placenta here. This is your cervix here. There's no placenta previa.” I'm like, “Oh my gosh.” My mom had been praying. My dad, my mother-in-law, Angie. I'm like, “Y'all, you will not guess what just happened.” I sound so crazy but I'm like, “God moved my placenta.” I even had Ashley, my doula, had her Sunday School group. She was like, “Girl, we've been praying for you.” I know that's not the story with everybody, but it's just so crazy. I really do believe that and I'm just so thankful. I had my appointment with Carol, one of the midwives and she's like, “Yeah, everything looks great. You're due around September. We're going to do everything we can to help you have a successful VBAC.” I'm like, “Okay, Carol. You promise I don't have placenta previa?” She's like, “What are you talking about sweetie? Your placenta is far away from the cervix.” I couldn't believe that it was the case. I had this regained energy and excitement. We were back on track. Let's do it. Then a couple of weeks later, I met with Dr. Adams and it's a group so you meet with different people because you don't know who's going to deliver you. Everyone I saw, I'm like, “If you deliver me, I don't care. Everyone is great. Fantastic.” I met with Dr. Adams and she's like, “You know, there's this thing that you can read.” It is a recommendation for TOLAC or how to have a successful VBAC and how to ripen your cervix. She had all of the guidelines there. She was like, “Have you been following the guidelines? Have you been doing your daily squats to open up your pelvis and doing the specific Spinning Babies exercises to get the baby in the right position?” I'm like, “Yeah, I've been doing my squats.” She's like, “Let me see you do 20 squats right now.” This is at my OB appointment. I'm like, “Okay.” She's holding my hands and doing squats with me at the appointment talking to me about what I need to do. Meagan: Oh my gosh, I love that. Rachel: I'm just like, “This is awesome.” Anyway, she really practices what she preaches. She's like, “All right, then let me see you do some squats.” So I did that. Also, going back so for Valentine's Day of last year, instead of giving me chocolates and stuff, my husband printed off the recommendations that they gave me. I'm like, “You don't care about this as much as I do. I wish you could just know what I'm going through.” He's like, “Okay, Rachel.” He printed off the guidelines of how to have a successful VBAC and he highlighted all of the things. This is on the OB's website, How to Have Your Cervix Ripened Before Birth. These were the things you needed to do. At 20 weeks, drink red raspberry leaf tea. At 36 weeks, do acupressure, acupuncture, and chiropractic care. At 37 weeks, start taking evening primrose oil. At 38 weeks, start using clary sage oil and do birth stimulation, sex, and all of that stuff. At 39 weeks, you can do membrane stripping. He's just so funny because he even bought all of these things. He's like, “Are you drinking red raspberry leaf tea? Is it 36 weeks yet because that's when you need to start going to a chiropractor.” That was awesome. I was just doing everything. I wasn't perfect. I tried to eat healthier and all of that stuff. You do what you can but I work full time. At the end of the day, we're not perfect but I tried to do all of those things. I did that. I found a doula in Jacksonville and she helped me through Hypnobabies. It is super interesting because your mind really can help you control pain. It's so crazy. It really can. I even want to look into this for my patients. I think it would be so cool if you could learn to hypnotize. Dentistry is scary, especially for kids so I'm always looking for new things to try. Okay, so we go to Jacksonville. I was due September 29th. I took a week off early from work. We closed the dental clinic down. I had a dentist that's working for me too, Dr. Bonnin and he's awesome. Thank you for working for me on maternity leave. I closed for a week. We just went to Jacksonville. We had a little mini vacay. We took Heidi. I feel like it was so much just to spend time with me and Edwin with my daughter for a straight week in a really long time and focus just on our family. We have had a lot going on up until then so it was a nice little breather away. Meagan: That's such a beautiful way to spend the end of pregnancy. Rachel: I know. Meagan: Sometimes in the end of pregnancy, we're so stressed. We're getting a lot of pressure from the outside world or from whoever. Why haven't you had your baby yet or why haven't you been induced? So it's nice to just be with your family and create this space going into it. Rachel: Yeah, it really was. It was such a blessing that we were able to do that. I didn't have to worry about, “Okay, let me do the last-minute touches on the nursery.” It was just relaxing. So I'm like, “Okay, for sure this baby is going to come soon.” I'm super relaxed. I saw a shooting star. I'm like, “All right. It's going to happen.” It didn't. A week passed so I'm already a week later and then I think I was 41 and a few days. I had the BPP again and they start doing the monitor thing. They just do the heart rate monitor. Meagan: Oh, a non-stress test? Rachel: A non-stress test just to make sure everything is good. They kept saying, “Everything is good but we are going to keep seeing you back.” They weren't letting me go very long. Meagan: It's very standard doing NSTs at 41 weeks, very standard. Rachel: Yeah, okay. They were just doing all of the things to make sure everything was good. But Dr. Adams was like, “I know you want to go into spontaneous labor on your own. If you're not by 42 weeks,” and she was one to wait up until 42 weeks to do an induction. She's like, “We'll do a super gentle induction. We'll start with breast stimulation. We won't even go to Pitocin or anything.” I didn't even want to hear the word induction so I'm like, “Okay.” But she was great because she allowed me all the way up until two weeks to schedule the induction whereas for some people, it just depends on the hospital scheduling and that's where modern medicine is sad because you have to do the schedule and your body's not on a schedule. Your due date is just a guess date. I mean, Jane, the doula in Jacksonville is like, “So what's your guess date?” because it is. We try to do what we can but at the end of the day, sometimes you just have to let nature take its course. Anyway, so I talked to Dr. Adams and everything was good. I was trying to go into labor on my own. My best friend from dental school, Jackie, actually had premature contractions at 32 weeks so her doctor was telling her all of the things she needs to do to not go into labor and I was trying to do all of the things that they told her the opposite. I'm like, “Okay, what did your doctor say? Okay, I need to do that.” It just goes to show you that getting babies on this earth is just hard no matter what way you look at it but if you're educated, it's a lot easier. Hurricane Ian was brewing up and we had to move from our hotel because our hotel was on the beach and they were like, “We are going to have to evacuate the hotel because a hurricane is coming.” I'm like, “Oh, this baby is for sure coming. It's a hurricane.” It didn't. The hurricane came and went. I even drank midwives' brew and all of that stuff. I was 41 and 5 days or something like that. Our daughter, Heidi, got really sick. She contracted something while we were there. She was throwing up. She couldn't keep anything down. My husband was getting a little bit antsy. My husband was like, “I have a lot of stuff I need to work on at home. Why don't you just stay here with your sister? I'll take Heidi home and I'll come back when you go into labor.” I was like, “Okay, sounds good.” He took Heidi home. She actually couldn't keep anything down when he got home. Home was in Pensacola so it was six hours away from Jacksonville. He drove home and she actually had to be admitted to the ER because she had to get an IV and all of that stuff. I'm just like, “Oh my gosh. My daughter is in the hospital.” I feel guilty because I've been focusing on myself and making sure I don't have a C-section meanwhile my daughter is at home in the ER. I was thinking about, “I'm just going to go home. I'll just be induced again.” You just want what's best for your babies. That's why we're here. That's why we try to avoid C-sections when we can but have them when it's going to save our babies' lives. We just want what's best for our babies so I just felt so guilty that I wasn't there with her. But anyway, she was fine. I finally went to Dr. Adams again. It was the first time I had a check. She said, “Okay, you're 2-3 centimeters dilated.” I'm like, “Why am I not in labor right now?” I was 2 centimeters dilated at the hospital a couple of hours in. So anyways, she's like, “You are super favorable. You are 2 centimeters dilated. You're at whatever plus station where your baby is really low.” She's like, “I'm surprised you're not in labor right now. All you're waiting on is for this baby to say, ‘Okay, it's time for me to come into the world.'” I mean, we just don't know. That's why medicine still has some mysteries to it. You just don't know what puts someone into labor. Anyways, she did a membrane strip which was great. Membrane stripping, is that what it's called? Membrane sweep. Meagan: Yeah, a stripping or a sweep. Rachel: She's like, “Okay.” We had the induction scheduled for that Thursday and it was a Monday. She's like, “Rachel, you're going to have this baby. You're not going to have to be induced. We have it scheduled just in case but you are going to go into labor on your own.” I'm like, “I really hope you're right.” I went home. My sister and I went to a coffee shop and we just relaxed for a little bit and then we went home. We were going to see a movie. My brother lives in Jacksonville too. Me, my sister and my brother were going to see a movie together. He happened to be off work. It was crazy. We're getting ready and then I start having some Braxton Hicks stuff but some contractions. Anyways, it really progressed and it started getting uncomfortable. I didn't know. I thought, “Okay.” We contacted our doula. We met her at the hospital. She was like, “Do y'all really think y'all should go to the hospital?” I was having trouble breathing through everything. I was like, “I don't know. It might just be Braxton Hicks.” We got to the hospital. I couldn't breathe through it very well so then Jane, our doula, was like, “Okay. Let's just go to the hospital and get checked.” I'm getting scared. “No, they're going to trap me. They're going to make me stay and I'm going to have to get a C-section again.” She's like, “Rachel, no. That's not true.” I've got my birth posse with me. We go in. They checked me and I was only at a 4. I'm like, “What the heck? I'm such a woosie. I'm only at a 4?” I'm like, “Let's just go back home.” Carol was there, the midwife that I really had a good connection with and she's like, “Rachel, I really don't recommend you going home. I really think that things are progressing quickly. You should stay here and just relax.” Then I talked to my husband too. Meagan: Make your drive. Rachel: As soon as I got admitted to the hospital, Heidi actually got dismissed so he's like, “We've got two babies heading out.” I'm like, “You're such a nerd.” He's like, “Rachel, stay at the hospital. You're being crazy. Just relax. Do your Hypnobabies thing and I'll be there.” I did that and it was crazy. As soon as I zoned everybody out and put my little headphones on– Meagan: And acclimated to the space.Rachel: Yeah, exactly. I had time to get acclimated. I was like, “Okay. This is going to be okay. This baby is coming.” I just relaxed and then things started getting a little cray cray during transition. Yeah. Now I know what people talk about with that. Also, I didn't have an epidural because I'm like, “No. They slow things down. I do not want to get an epidural.” Yeah. So that was great and then the transition thing. Okay, things started getting really serious. My sister was there with me because my husband couldn't be there. I had my sister and a doula. I was like, “Sarah, why did you talk me into this? This is so stupid. I can't believe I'm doing this. This is the dumbest thing ever.” Then Jane was like, “Okay, I think she's ready.” Meagan: Usually when there is intense talk and doubt kicks in, it's like, “I think it's happening right now.” Rachel: Exactly. So then Carol came in. She checked me. I was 9.5. I had a little cervical lip and I was like, “Oh my gosh. No. I cannot believe it.” I was just like, “How in the world?” Carol was like, “Okay, I think your husband is almost here so we can wait to pull the cervical lip out of the way.” I'm like, “No. We are not doing that!” I'm not waiting. He should have been here a little bit ago.Anyway, so we did that. I'm about to start pushing. My brother was there at the hospital. He met my husband out in the hospital parking lot and they were literally sprinting. They were like, “Okay, your baby is about to be born. Here you are.” Luke led him to the exact room. Edwin comes in. He has a backward baseball cap on. I'm like, “They're going to think you're a crazy person coming in here.” They're like, “Is this the baby daddy? Okay, come in here.” I was pushing and I'm like, “Oh my gosh. The baby is going to get stuck,” because I've heard stories that the baby is going to get stuck at 10 centimeters. Carol was so amazing. By the way, she has a British accent. She's from Africa and she's the coolest person ever. She's like, “Rachel, you are doing it. You're about to have this baby.” I'm like, “No way. Are you serious?” At that moment, she's like, “Rachel, you're having this baby. This is happening. It's too late to turn back. He's not getting stuck.” I'm crying. I'm like, “This is the best feeling ever.” He was born. He's healthy. He's here. I'm healthy and this is how things are supposed to happen. It was the most amazing thing ever. You just can't explain it. I'm just like, “Oh my gosh.” I just can't believe that it actually happened and everything was great. The births were such polar opposites. No one's birth is less important than the other. I don't ever want my daughter to think, “Oh my gosh. I was a failure birth, and then baby John–”. His name is John Edwin Richard the Third and then John was a regular birth. It's not about that. It's just how God can take our pain and our failures that we have and turn beauty from ashes. That is what happened. This is how it's supposed to be. It was the best feeling in the whole world. I was just so thankful. I can't believe my husband made it there. I didn't think he was but he did. Meagan: So close. Rachel: Yeah. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I do want to say that I'm not trying to diss C-sections. You need it when you can but who you have as a provider is the most important thing. I trusted them and I knew that if she had recommended that I needed a C-section I was going to say, “Okay. I know that I've tried everything I can. I'm going to trust you guys.” She even said, “The position of the baby is the most important thing.” Baby has to be in the right position to do that. So anyway, it was just the most beautiful thing ever. I'm just so thankful for everything. Meagan: Oh my goodness. It's such a beautiful story honestly from all of it, from the dove in the yard flying away to moving and driving six hours away. Those are hard decisions sometimes to make and sometimes dual care is really hard too because sometimes you will have providers disagreeing with the other provider so that's really hard. But so beautiful. I could see the emotion and I could hear the emotion in your face. You're so happy. It sounds just so beautiful. Rachel: I know. It's amazing. It's the best. Meagan: Well, thank you. I do want to talk about that placenta previa because it's interesting to go from being diagnosed with complete previa to so far away. That's a miracle. It's so crazy but a lot of the time, we hear diagnoses of full placenta previa so I wanted to talk about what that is. You mentioned accreta too but previa is where it covers the cervix. To diagnose complete previa, it should be directly over the innermost side, so the OS. Directly over the canal of the uterus which is the cervix. So with pregnancies 16 weeks or more when this is happening, sometimes they're diagnosed with a low-lying. Low lying is when it's really, really close or the edge is less than 20 millimeters away from the OS, the cervix. 20 millimeters is 1 inch or 2 centimeters. Usually, most providers when it's 20 or more are totally okay and comfortable with that. One of the interesting things, and I'm curious how you had yours, but a transvaginal ultrasound to diagnose the placenta previa has a way higher chance of it actually being accurate than an abdominal. Did you have an abdominal?Rachel: It was transvaginal, yes. Meagan: It was. Rachel: Yes. On both, yeah. Meagan: See? Look at that. That's so amazing. If someone is diagnosing you with previa on the abdominal outside, you can also request a transvaginal because that can bring higher accuracy. If we get diagnosed and there are placenta issues within the pregnancy, then sometimes they will suggest a 34-36 week induction so that's another thing and then if there aren't any complications, sometimes it's 36-37. So just for those who have been diagnosed. I also want to mention that a lot of the time when we have low lying or something like that, it does move throughout pregnancy. Rachel: Yeah, and usually it does take a lot longer than that. I did so much research too. So yeah, just like what you were saying, and if it does migrate upwards, it never will migrate back down because your uterus is growing up, not down. It all is about where the placenta attaches to the uterus. It's this tissue and you can't help it. It's when the baby is conceived, that it attaches. I had a D&C and a C-section which can increase the risk of it. I had a friend that was diagnosed with it and she even had some bleeding. She almost had to have a C-section but it had migrated more than what did you say it was? Meagan: 20 millimeters, 1 inch, or 2 centimeters. Rachel: Yeah, she said it was 3 centimeters so her provider was letting her go. I'm not saying that everybody's just miraculously moves all of the time but the chances are pretty good that it's going to move. If your provider says that you need a C-section, just maybe give it some time. Everybody is different. Meagan: Yeah. Well, yeah. I think it's just something that a lot of the time we don't talk about, placenta previa. It can be really scary when you hear at 20 weeks, “Hey, you've got this possible placenta previa or low lying and you might have to have a C-section,” so at 20 weeks we're hearing, “I might have to have a C-section,” and it immediately starts making our wheels turn. Rachel: It does. It's crazy. Meagan: And then last of all, I really want to talk about teeth. Rachel: Yeah, teeth. Meagan: Our pearly whites. So obviously, you're a pediatric dentist and one of the interesting things that you have found that we didn't realize is that C-sections can affect enamel. Rachel: Yes, it can. If you think about it, at about six months in utero is when the baby teeth are starting to develop. Anything that happens, if the mom gets a fever or you don't have the certain Vitamins A, C, D, or E which are really important for your teeth to mineralize and you don't have the certain minerals, then your teeth can be a little bit weaker when you are born. All of these things in pregnancy affect the development of your teeth. Right at birth is when your adult molars, so you have four adult molars in the back and the front four on the top and the front four on the bottom. Right at birth is when those molars start to calcify. If you have, and I'm not saying that a C-section increases but it's more of a correlation. It's not a cause and effect. It's a correlation. Meagan: It's a correlation, yeah. Rachel: Yes. That's observed if you have anything that happens right around the time of birth. With a C-section, sometimes the baby might be a little bit earlier. When you are born, you have things that happened at birth. The baby might be a little bit earlier. A C-section brings the baby earlier. Sometimes those things can affect the mineralization process of those six-year-old molars and the front four top teeth and the front four bottom teeth. It's called molar incisor hypomineralization. If you have something like that, it's just a really good idea to see a pediatric dentist. You can put sealants on it. Sealants can protect the adult molars from getting cavities and things like that to strengthen it. Also, being on antibiotics right at birth–Meagan: That's just what I was going to ask. What about antibiotics?Rachel: Yeah. I'm not getting into the nitty-gritty of everything, but certain antibiotics are worse than others. Usually, the C-section has a higher chance of having to be in the NICU and taking antibiotics. That can affect the mineralization process of your molars. That in turn can cause them to be weaker which puts them at higher risk for cavities. It's just so crazy that even a C-section can affect your teeth which is my small little bubble of medicine that I do. Even that can have a role. It's not like if you have to have a C-section, you're like, “Oh my gosh. My kid is going to have cavities forever.” It just puts you more at risk for that just like someone could be more at risk of being overweight but there are things that you can do through your diet and all of that to keep yourself healthy. It's not an automatic thing. There are things you can do. Don't drink juice and eat sugar. There are things you can do to keep cavities from forming. But yeah, at around that time is when everything is forming. It's so crazy. Meagan: It's just good to know.Rachel: It is. It is. Meagan: Even if you've had a vaginal birth with a lot of antibiotics from Group B Strep or something like that, it's good to just be aware. Rachel: Yes. It's not necessarily with a C-section, but with antibiotics and stuff. Meagan: Awesome. Rachel: Oh my gosh. Awesome. You guys are the best. I love you. Meagan: We love you back and we are so honored that you wanted to share your story and touch the world around you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Rachel Gibler (@rachelgibler), host of the It's F*cking Spiritual podcast joins BABB today to talk with us about manifesting! This episode will make you think about your whole life differently and give you the tools to start changing your life to be the one of your dreams! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ How to Connect with Rachel: It's F*cking Spiritual Podcast Listen to Abbie's episode on Rachel's Podcast about Gut Health & Cycle Syncing! Website Rachel's Instagram & Podcast Account ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you need personalized health support, start by taking my quiz to see which program is best for you! Want to join our free BABB Facebook Community? Join us here! Make sure to follow me on Instagram & Tiktok (@abbie.stasior) Click here to learn more about Be About Being Better as a company here!

Our journey with Saint John Climacus has not been an easy one; in fact, we get a taste of walking upon that narrow path that leads to the kingdom simply through reading about his vision of the spiritual life and his experience. It reflects the reality and the challenges of the spiritual life, and in particular a life of penance and repentance. To give ourselves over to God, to seek his love above all things, to desire him more than we desire our own lives is the path that St. John is putting before us.  However, there is something within us that resists walking this path. Quite simply it is our ego - the self. Even in our pursuit of God, we can make ourselves every bit as willful in our spiritual discipline as we are in our relationships with others, and in our day-to-day work. Through his description of compunction (sorrow over one's sins eventually leading to the experience of Godly Joy) St John is seeking to free us from the grip self-centeredness and its delusions. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:09:51 FrDavid Abernethy: page 166 para 49   00:09:56 Kate Truta: Hello!  We are new to the group.  We live in Colorado.   00:10:13 FrDavid Abernethy: page 116   00:10:20 Eric Ewanco: Welcome, Kate!   00:10:41 Kate Truta: Thank you!  Good to be here!   00:19:40 Deb Dayton: Some I send to bring Father s lot of joy!   00:19:49 Deb Dayton: *Duke   00:21:20 Anthony: It's as if these accusations are like a kind of hell   00:24:59 Eric Ewanco: … or, purgatory   00:25:01 Kathy Locher: Can someone tell me what page we're on?   00:27:21 Bridget McGinley: 117 number 51   00:27:43 Kathy Locher: thanks!   00:29:40 Anthony: How does one distinguish the right "amount" of compunction versus a demonic despondency due to slander?   00:29:48 Cindy Moran: Flippant   00:30:14 Eric Ewanco:

Rachel shares her inspiring story of how she confronted her struggles with love and sex addiction. With the help of a love addiction specialist, Rachel was able to move from a place of deep lows to a place of hope and healing. Host Brianne Davis also discusses the importance of seeking help, and how powerful it can be to take ownership of one's own behavior and thoughts. This engaging and encouraging episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking support on their journey of healing._____If you or anyone you know is struggling with addiction, depression, trauma, sexual abuse or feeling overwhelmed, we've compiled a list of resources at secretlifepodcast.com.______To share your secret and be a guest on the show email secretlifepodcast@icloud.com_____SECRET LIFE'S TOPICS INCLUDE:addiction recovery, mental health, alcoholism, drug addiction, sex addiction, love addiction, OCD, ADHD, dyslexia, eating disorders, debt & money issues, anorexia, depression, shoplifting,  molestation, sexual assault, trauma, relationships, self-love, friendships, community, secrets, self-care, courage, freedom, and happiness._____Create and Host Your Podcast with the same host we use - RedCircle_____Get your copy of SECRET LIFE OF A HOLLYWOOD SEX & LOVE ADDICT -- Secret Life Novel or on Amazon______HOW CAN I SUPPORT THE SHOW?Tell Your Friends & Share Online!Follow, Rate & Review: Apple Podcasts | SpotifyFollow & Listen iHeart | Stitcher | Google Podcasts | Amazon | PandoraSpread the word via social mediaInstagramTwitterFacebook#SecretLifePodcastDonate - You can also support the show with a one-time or monthly donation via PayPal (make payment to secretlifepodcast@icloud.com) or at our WEBSITE.Connect with Brianne Davis-Gantt (@thebriannedavis)Official WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterConnect with Mark Gantt (@markgantt)Main WebsiteDirecting WebsiteInstagramFacebookTwitterTranscript[0:00:00] Rachel: I watched my life start to both elevate in really weird ways and then deteriorate into this like, deep bottomless pit of I can't do anything without this man in my life. And he was like a drug. Like could not get enough, like was addicted.[0:00:28] Brianne Davis: Welcome to the Secret Life Podcast. Tell me your secret, I'll tell you mine. Sometimes you have to go through the darkness to reach the light. That's what I did. After twelve years of recovery in sex and love addiction, I finally found my soulmate myself. Please join me in my novel, secret Life of a Hollywood sex and love Addict. A four time bestseller on Amazon. It's a brutal, honest, raw, gnarly ride, but hilarious at the same time. Check it out now on Amazon. Welcome to Secret Live Podcast. I'm Brianne Davis Gantt. Today I'm pulling back the curtains of all kinds of human secrets. We'll hear about what people are hiding from themselves or others. You know those deep, dark secrets we probably want to go to our grave with are those lighter, funnier secrets that are just plain embarrassing. Really.[0:01:28] Brianne Davis: The how, what, when, where, and why of it all. Today. My guest is Rachel. Now, Rachel, I have a question for you. Dun, dun dun. What is your secret?[0:01:39] Rachel: Well, thank you for having me on. And my secret is that when I was in my late twenty s, I had an on and off scandalous relationship with an 18 year old gentleman. And it literally threw my life down the tubes and I almost tapped out on life as a result of it.[0:02:05] Brianne Davis: Wow. Okay, let's go back. So what started this relationship?[0:02:12] Rachel: So I had been in on and off long term relationships with different men and none of them seemed to pan out. And I was on my hot shit.[0:02:24] Brianne Davis: Your shit down stink.[0:02:26] Rachel: Yeah, I was like, you know what? Fuck a relationship. I'm going to just get some young tail and see what happens. And honestly, I'd never been with anybody younger, but this guy was catnip. He was like kryptonite at this catnip and kryptonite all wrapped up into one package. And I watched my life start to both elevate in really weird ways and then deteriorate into this deep bottomless pit of I can't do anything without this man in my life. And he was like a drug, could not get enough, was addicted.[0:03:02] Brianne Davis: So can we talk about first how you said elevate? How did things elevate during that time?[0:03:11] Rachel: This young man came from a really amazing family. And in my relationship with him, or pseudo relationship we'll call it, I got exposed to motherly love, I got exposed to fatherly love. I got exposed to family in a way that I'd never felt cared for and seen. And it was almost like the missing puzzle piece in my life. And so I felt powerful at times, but then the low was like unmanageable, crying in my bed, staring at my phone for 12 hours waiting for text messages, like, kind of crazy, terrible.[0:03:48] Brianne Davis: So it was almost like was an obsession came over you about him. Did other people know about your relationship at the time?[0:03:56] Rachel: They did, but they didn't know to what extent I was choosing to participate in to the point where I would call my friends religiously for support, but they'd be like, Just stop seeing that guy. And then the later it would get at night, I would end up on an app called Whisper and releasing my deepest darkest, like, please help me get this guy in my life. Who do I have to be in order to have him in my life forever? And it was terrifying. I was addicted, I was obsessed, I was compulsive. I was spending hours like an FBI investigator on social media. I look back on that part of my life and go, I just want to hug that girl.[0:04:53] Brianne Davis: So did you stalk him? Was he an available young buck?[0:05:05] Rachel: As available as an 18 year old can be. I mean, he still lived at home. Like, I supported him in moving out of his parents house. Maybe in ten years, he would have been relationship material, but he was a baby.[0:05:30] Brianne Davis: A baby. But here's the thing. So your friends knew about the relationship. Did they know how young he was?[0:05:37] Rachel: They did know, but they didn't see to the extent I was involved. They saw like, okay, well, Rachel's not around anymore, so she must be doing something else. And he and I shared an activity in the world together, so I was always doing, quote unquote, that activity. And what I was really doing was just, like, upending my life and turning myself into bending myself into whatever sort of gumby character I could be that I thought he would want me to be, which included not being anywhere near anybody I was friends with.[0:06:16] Brianne Davis: So you really isolated yourself in this situation from people, so everything shut out and made it about this one person.[0:06:28] Rachel: Yeah. And seemingly from the outside, everything seemed fine. I was successful. I had a six figure income, I had my own place. I had it all together. And, yeah, it was jarring, to say the least. When I hit that bottom of, like, I don't want to do life anymore because of this relationship with this person, it was like a two week on, two week off.[0:06:57] Brianne Davis: So what was that bottom? Can you describe the moment where it just all came just rushing?[0:07:04] Rachel: Yeah, it was five years ago and five years ago in June, and I had planned my birthday and the girl he had cheated on me with probably three or four times, he was pulling away again. And I uncovered in my social media findings that he had planned a beach day with her on my birthday, and my birthday was going to be at the beach. So after he had just professed his undying love for me, and we were going to be together, and he never wants to see anybody else. And it was just like, I'm canceling my birthday, I'm getting in the car and I'm leaving town, and I'm never coming back. Yeah, it was gnarly. It was very traumatic. It was like I was living in an emergency room, emotional emergency room, 24 hours a day. My adrenaline, my nervous system was just tapped.[0:08:04] Brianne Davis: Wow. Did you get in that car and drive and go?[0:08:08] Rachel: I did. I went to where I am from and really had a hard time explaining why I was there and made some excuse why I was there and just found myself driving around and figuring out which telephone pole is just going to run my car into.[0:08:29] Brianne Davis: I have heard similar people say when they've been in that same situation, like they didn't want to kill themselves, they just didn't want to be around anymore. Is that how you felt?[0:08:42] Rachel: Yeah, I would say that it just hurt so bad that I didn't want it to hurt anymore.[0:08:49] Brianne Davis: Right.[0:08:50] Rachel: And my best thinking was like, there's no way this feeling is ever going to go away unless I end it. And I had exposed myself so deeply to the community that he and I were both in. Just people just like, they looked at me and go, you're a grown woman. What are you doing?[0:09:12] Brianne Davis: So I had all this judgment from other people because they saw it.[0:09:17] Rachel: Yeah. There were moments where people would pull him aside and be like, hey, she's dangerous. Don't talk with her anymore. Really had his best interest at heart, but they didn't see the inner workings of what actually was happening. And I'm fully responsible for creating what I created with him, and we co created it together.[0:09:46] Brianne Davis: I love what you just said because it seems like the blame got put on you, even though, you know, it was both you and him, but it seemed like, did it all come on you all the judgment came on you than him.[0:10:00] Rachel: I'm sure it didn't. I mean, there's my truth, his truth, their truth, and then the truth.[0:10:08] Brianne Davis: Did they say in God's truth because God sees it?[0:10:12] Rachel: God's truth? There's that too.[0:10:15] Brianne Davis: But.[0:10:19] Rachel: I think over the last five years, looking at somebody's, like, if you're looking at somebody and you're like, oh, they totally hate me, they totally hate me, they're thinking the worst of me. And then you will go up and ask them, hey, what are you thinking about? I'm thinking about eating a sandwich.[0:10:34] Brianne Davis: Yeah. It has nothing to do with you ever.[0:10:37] Rachel: Don't actually give a shit. And if they do, it's because it triggers something inside of them. So I don't truly know, but I know that there were people that pulled them aside and said, like, hey, this isn't a good thing for you. You're young, you're free. Don't get wrapped up in some old ladies stuff.[0:10:58] Brianne Davis: So here's my next question for you. How did you get out of it?[0:11:03] Rachel: I reached for a lifeline. I called somebody who had always given a trace to me, talk to me straight and direct with me. And she said, you get to go to a twelve step meeting and you get to get your butt into a counselor and have a conversation about love addiction. Because this isn't you that's dealing this and creating this. This is a part of you that is sick and you get to get help. And boy, I couldn't pick up the phone quick enough that day. Where I found myself driving around telephone to hit myself into a telephone pole was the day I called her. And within an hour of that incident, I was on a phone, phone call, phone therapy session with a love addiction specialist. And she was like, yeah, you are not alone. This is to tee the description of love addiction. And there's hope.[0:12:02] Brianne Davis: Here's my question for you. And a lot of people ask me this. I've already said I'm out ten years sober in sex and love addiction. And my question for you is do you think you can have a love addictive relationship with one person and then have a healthy one in another? Or are you always going to have love addicted qualities or traits?[0:12:25] Rachel: Are you saying simultaneously, like, I can be love addicted to somebody else and then at the same time be in a healthy relationship with somebody or like segueing from one to the next, one to the next? Over the last five years, what I've uncovered is that I'm on the spectrum of sex and love addiction. So there are days where I feel anorexic emotionally, there's days where I feel avoidance, there's days where my intrigue button is really high. And for those of you that are listening, there's all different types of sex and love addiction. There's a range. It could even be codependence. Just straight up 101 codependence. I can fall under the umbrella of that. And in the work that I've done, it's when I choose to come from responsibility and ownership and I'm willing to go to the deepest cut of why I'm acting the way that I'm acting or showing up in the world, then I have the option to be in a healthy partnership. But it is only when I'm willing to do that work.[0:13:27] Brianne Davis: I love how you say that because sometimes with love addiction it's so hard to explain that there are so many different aspects, there's so many different of that personality that can come out at one time. I can go anorexic, I can become obsessive, I can want to flirt an intrigue and it's like, I don't know each day what that character defect will flare up or that behavior will want to act out. So how you just said that, I hope it explained to the listeners that this can come in all forms. It's not just one way.[0:14:01] Rachel: It's a daily reprieve. Right. One day at a time. I choose to show up as a sober woman that's connected to something greater than myself. And without that spiritual practice, that foundation that I choose into every morning, I'm liable to be right back in that car five years ago, finding the telephone pole or digging into my partner's phone records or something. Yeah.[0:14:34] Brianne Davis: Because we only have control over ourselves. We don't have control over the person. Love addiction is you're addicted to a person. So they're human. They're going to have their flaws. My husband's going to trigger me sometimes, and I'm going to be like, See you. In other days. I'm going to be like, I love you, but that's okay. I have to do the inner work. So I stay connected and an authentic person.[0:14:57] Rachel: Yeah. And it has nothing to do with them. If I'm getting triggered by something someone else is doing, it's a gift to me to look at what value or belief that is toxic is arising and doing the work to get in there and rewrite that. This human projected all of the magical qualities that I wanted and a dad and a best friend and a partner and a brother. I mean, he fit every single mold of who I would have wanted to be kept safe by. So I was constantly lefting after that safety from somebody else. And then envy strikes a chord with me growing up, triangulating with other women. So the envy of, I don't want her to have what I want, you can't have it, but I can. So triangulating with men, particularly this one, who would, if at all possible, find the next available woman in whatever room we're in to create that dynamic with.[0:15:57] Brianne Davis: Wow. So you would walk into a room and that dynamic. Another woman would be, like, psychologically chosen, and you would play out that dynamic.[0:16:07] Rachel: Almost every time I was in a space with him.[0:16:11] Brianne Davis: Yeah. Can you name one incident that happened?[0:16:14] Rachel: Yeah, this activity we were participating in. I walked in one day, and there was a woman in the space that walked by. The space.[0:16:29] Brianne Davis: I just simply walked by, just walked.[0:16:31] Rachel: By, walking her dog. And I saw him walk across the room, look out the window, and then within 24 hours, they were having lunch together. And by day three, I confronted him straight up, and he was like, yeah. What? There was no proof. I had no proof that anything had happened. But my gut was like, up. Here we go again. She fits the mold of what he's after, and we were off to the races. And it's not just jealousy for me. It's the idea of creating situations where I'll be abandoned.[0:17:09] Brianne Davis: Right. That you'll always be like the less than one. Yeah. And I seem like I used to do that, to have a greater than less than with women in different ways. So when you're talking about it's like, oh, I always was either one up or one below a woman with somebody. You know what I mean? But that was your instinct, that you trusted your instinct. There was something inside of you, because lots of people just ignore that. Him looking out a window with a woman. Yeah, but you saw it and then you called it out, which I'm like, that never happens.[0:17:45] Rachel: Well, I guess it never happens, but the fact that I was calling it out was so that I could be right about being rejected or abandoned. And it's funny because even even after that relationship ended and I really got into the work, I would talk about walking into a room and scanning for who's the prettiest person in the room versus am I the prettiest girl in the room? So that I could assert control and power to be safe. Like, there was a very young part of me that just wanted to be safe everywhere that I went. And what I realized is that it had nothing to do with him. It was just another opportunity to play out the story that I'm not safe.[0:18:25] Brianne Davis: Oh, my God. That's like Mike drop information that no matter what it was, it was just you setting up that scenario in your head.[0:18:35] Rachel: Yeah. So the good old cerny prayer that's the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can. And it's crazy and feel like a magician sometimes, but when I take ownership and I am in ownership of my own behaviors, thoughts, feelings, attitudes, sensations, inner dialogue, no shit, my reality changes.[0:19:01] Brianne Davis: Yeah. It's really 100% when I let go of wanting to have control out of anything outside of myself and just have responsibility for myself. It's so free.[0:19:15] Rachel: Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, there's been times where I've been in a relationship where I'm like, this person is an alcoholic. They are an alcoholic. I've taken their inventory, and when I took off the magnifying the magnifying glass and picked up the mirror, within a week or two, that person wasn't drinking anymore. They did not have a problem with alcohol. It wasn't even an issue. And it was like, when I really show up and stay on my side of the street, everything I want to.[0:19:46] Brianne Davis: Manifest, manifest my gosh, I almost have chill bumps right now. I mean, I am having them a little bit. You should see my arm people.[0:19:54] Rachel: You get it.[0:19:56] Brianne Davis: But here's my next question. So having this secret relationship, secret like, pattern with this 18 year old guy, who do you think that benefited and who do you think it harmed?[0:20:14] Rachel: There are so many benefits and so many harms. I would say the harms were subconscious on both of our parts, and the benefits were intentional. You know, like, he learned things from me about life that he never would have learned if he hadn't met me. And there are things I learned about life that I never would have learned if I'd never met him. And I would say that that relationship saved my life or gave me the opportunity to create my life. I often refer to that relationship as, like, I was living in black or white and was forced to go into or chose to go into an emergency room. And when I walked out of the emergency room into the real world again, all I could see was color. And it was like, Holy shit. How have I been missing the taste of things? How have I been missing the color of things? I can feel and hear sound in a way that I never have before because all of my focus was on black or white before. So I benefited massively from that relationship as detrimental and traumatizing and scary and uncomfortable and juicy for a lack of better work.[0:21:33] Brianne Davis: But here's the thing, and I think this is for me, too. Sometimes the darkest situation and the darkest relationship has seen it for what it was and then moving out of it like you're saying and seeing color, that you actually step out of that horrible fantasy and into reality. And I think I used to think a relationship is what gave the world color, but that's not true. Do you know what I mean? I was so worried about losing that high of dramatic relationship, but really that's not living in truth. That's living in black and white is what you're saying.[0:22:19] Rachel: Yeah. It's also another way I like to look at it is I no longer I have bumpers on my life. Now I know if I get too high, I hit a ceiling instead of going even further than I would have. And sometimes living within those bumpers or value systems or boundaries. Or boundaries, my favorite word guidelines for my life. There's a little part that's sad that knows what the experience of being high or extremely low feels like. And sometimes life doesn't offer that same level of it's like eating candy or having a meal. I choose to eat meals now instead of binging on candy or soda all day and looking back and going, dude, candy was fun, and going, yeah, okay, I saw what life was like that, and I got really sick.[0:23:15] Brianne Davis: Yeah. Listen, I'm not saying there's not a little like, oh, that part of my life is over. And then you see somebody doing it, like a friend or somebody, and you're like, that was fun, but you know where that fun leads.[0:23:30] Rachel: You know, we're good and fast.[0:23:34] Brianne Davis: And you were hitting that telephone pole.[0:23:37] Rachel: Yeah, I know that it leads to a hijacking experience, and I'm just not willing to put myself through that. But did it benefit me to go through that at such a young age? Yeah. I mean, I'm seeing people that are in their sometimes 70s who have never even acknowledged that they've been living decades this way. So for me, I feel grateful to have, I would say, course correct in my life. Choosing to get on a path of reality and ownership at an early age.[0:24:11] Brianne Davis: I love that. Oh my God, you are dropping so many bombs today. For me, I just needed to hear them. But I do have one last question. If somebody is in a type of relationship that has a lot of drama, that's not stable, that they're not really happy with, but they're addicted to, what would be your advice to them?[0:24:34] Rachel: First and foremost, I would say some people can exist in those relationships and it's fine. I couldn't. So the question I would ask is, like, is your life unmanageable? Is your emotional life unmanageable? Make a list of the things that you're powerless over in this relationship. And then I would have them write out what their vision is, what do they want in relationship? And I would have them hold those two lists together and say, like, are these two things matching up? Is it time to do something about it? And then every person I mean, twelve step isn't right for everybody. It's not fit for everybody.[0:25:07] Brianne Davis: Yeah, I agree. It's not.[0:25:09] Rachel: There's transformational tools, there's leadership tools, there's twelve step tools, there's therapy, there's holistic tools. There's all kinds of ways to move from dysfunction to thriving, from surviving to thriving. And the one thing I will say is if you are in a space of losing your mind, you're not alone. There's somebody probably on your block that's having the same exact experience for some different reason or maybe even the same one. So pick up the phone and call somebody and that secrets will keep you sick. The sooner you can let it go and let it out and find a safe space to do that. I'm sure Brian would be willing to be a safe space for anybody knowing that that's what she's up to here. Reach out.[0:25:57] Brianne Davis: Reach out. And that is where we're going to end. So if you want to be on the show, please email me at secretlifepodcast@icloud.com. Until next time, thanks again for listening to the show. Please subscribe rate share or send me a note secretlifepodcast@icloud.com. And if you'd like to check out my book, head over to secretlifenovel.com or Amazon to pick up a copy for yourself or someone you love. Thanks again. See you soon.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

One of the most difficult tasks for new mothers is undoubtedly feeding the baby. There are so many decisions to make, and you never know if you're making the right ones. Since so many parents believe they are not receiving adequate support throughout this process, our guest for today decided it was her responsibility to facilitate this journey for them. Her name is Andrea Ippolito, and she is the founder and the CEO of SimpliFed.  Andrea is a warm and contagiously positive person who decided to devote her career to guiding pregnant and postpartum women through the journey of feeding their newborns. She founded SimpliFed as a result of her own experience with inadequate healthcare solutions. Andrea is here today to share her story about a recent multimillion-dollar success, to provide information on breastfeeding, and to swarm us with her positivity, humility and kindness. So, take a seat and enjoy the show!  You can subscribe or listen to previous episodes of the Busine$$ of the V podcast by clicking here.    TOPICS COVERED:  Meet Andrea Ippolito, a true hero in the field of mothers struggling to feed their babies. From engineering to baby feeding: How Andrea overcame all the obstacles and founded SimpliFed. Most parents both breastfeed and use formula, and this is very important as most people see them as two separate things. How Andrea's background in navigating bureaucracy helped in understanding the red-tape aspect of the story. Dr. Dweck is curious about how this platform handles the lack of hands-on approach that breastfeeding women usually require. Lactation consultants are pretty scarce in rural areas and women frequently don't have access to their services. Rachel's questions are spot on: how does the money flow and how is the company developing? Per Aspira Ad Astra: SimpliFed closed their $6 million seed round in May.  Andrea claims that the company's most important mission is to democratize access to care for all pregnant and postpartum families. Dr. Dweck wants to know how SimpliFed supports those who choose formula over breastfeeding, and how the company navigated the recent baby formula scandal. Andrea's personal experience as a mother of two, as Rachel correctly predicts, had a significant influence on her business ideas. SimpliFed does not discriminate against parents' preferences and offers plans for all parents, whether they opt for breastfeeding, formula, pumps, or combo feeding. Astounded by SimpliFed's success, Rachel asks: how did the company raise such a generous amount of money? Andrea reveals that this journey has been anything but simple or casual, and that she had to roll up her sleeves and dig in. Relationships are essential: It's vital to join as many networks as possible and maintain contact with everyone you might need later in life. But how did she manage to catch these people's attention? Andrea attributes this to a complex combination of many factors, including the sheer size of the women's health market. Andrea ends the discussion on a fiery note: breastfeeding is not a niche; it serves all people born in the US, as well as their parents! HOT FLASH: According to CDC, the percentage of babies breastfeeding at six months increased from 35% in the year 2000 to 49% in the year 2010.  QUOTES:  “Most parents both breastfeed and use formula. 85% of women start off breastfeeding and most at some point transition to formula.” (Andrea)  “What I learned is that so many women seem to need that hands-on approach, e.g. this is the way you place your breast, this is the type of pillow hold you should use, etc.” (Dr. Dweck)  “The way we see ourselves is we are complimenting [the in-person care delivery] and improving access to care.” (Andrea)  “As we are contracting with health plans, we commonly hear things like ‘There is one lactation consultant in network for 350,000 members'.” (Andrea)  “Going live with TRICARE was particularly powerful for me just because there is no better patient population to serve than military families and veterans.” (Andrea)  “Oftentimes we hear people describe their journey and it doesn't seem quite as linear as yours.” (Rachel)  “Something I've come across in practice and I don't have an answer to are some of the judgements placed on people who choose not to nurse, and I don't mean because they have a medical issue that makes it impossible.” (Dr. Dweck)  “We do a lot of listening upfront, starting during pregnancy but also, of course, postpartum, to understand what [the parents'] goals are and what their needs are. And then, based on their goals, we work to design a plan that works for them.” (Andrea)  “You said something early on in the conversation very casually, that you just closed $6 million in funding. I know that you don't pull something like that out of a magic hat, and you said it very casually, but I know that it wasn't a casual effort.” (Rachel)  “It is so important to embed yourself in networks as much as possible and look out for people that maybe don't have as thoughtful networks or as rich networks as you do.” (Andrea)  “Getting those kinds of numbers and having 6 firms with term sheets are among the best stats that I've ever heard, and I've been doing this a long time.” (Rachel)  “When you look in the market size, a lot of times people will refer to us as a niche. We are serving all people born in the US and we're serving their parents, so stop referring to women's health as anything as niche because we are half the population and our economic force is powerful as heck.” (Andrea)    FURTHER RESOURCES:  Website: www.simplifed.com  Instagram: @simplifedbaby  Andrea @LinkedIn     LINKS FOR BUSINE$$ OF THE V:  Website: www.businessofthev.com  Dr. Alyssa Dweck: https://drdweck.com  Rachel Braun Scherl: www.sparksolutionsforgrowth.com/about-rachel-braun-scherl/ 

For her first three births, doctors refused to allow Rachel to go into labor and pushed for scheduled C-sections. Rachel knew the risks involved with being plus-sized and potentially having large babies, but she just wanted someone to give her a chance. With her fourth pregnancy, Rachel knew she needed to pursue birth on her own terms. She found a supportive community, prepared with extensive research, and hired a very experienced, VBAC-friendly home birth midwife. After weeks of prodromal labor, Rachel was able to deliver her baby girl at home without any complications. She finally felt safe and protected in her birthing space. Rachel found redemption, healing, and confidence both in her body and in herself.Additional linksThe VBAC Link Blog: Plus Size BirthThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever time it is where you are listening, welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan and I just can't even begin to tell you about this episode that is coming your way. You guys are going to love it. Like, seriously love it. As we were talking a little bit before we started recording, I was dying. I was sitting here taking notes. Let me just tell you, our friend Rachel here has been through so much. Everything. I mean, seriously. There are all of the things. Plus-sized mama, a big baby, VBAC after three C-sections. I should say HBAC after three C-sections. Let's see. A bait and switch. So many things, oh my gosh. So many things. I'm not going to take too much time right now because I really want to turn the time over to her. Just in the ten minutes that I was talking to her a little bit about her stories, I was dying. I was dying. I was like, “Okay. We have to start her recording because everyone needs to hear this.” Review of the WeekMeagan: We are going to dive into it, but of course, I have a Review of the Week. If you have not had a moment to leave us a review, we would love it. We would absolutely love it. You can leave a review on Apple Podcasts and Google Play. I think maybe Spotify. You can email us at info@thevbaclink.com. You can just Google us. Send us a message on Instagram or Facebook. Wherever it may be, we would love your reviews and we would love to read them on the podcast. Today's review is from Kim.Aboo and this is on Apple Podcasts. Her topic is “Prepping for My VBAC.” It says, “My first pregnancy, I elected for a C-section for my twins. In my second current pregnancy, I was very indecisive on whether I wanted to VBAC or not. My provider actually brought it up to me. Upon doing more research, I came across The VBAC Link's Insta. At 22 weeks pregnant, I decided that I'm going to VBAC. In one of your episodes, the mom said, ‘I had to trust my body. Know you can do it and believe in yourself.' That empowered me and I told myself, ‘I can do it.'“I have been listening to all of the episodes ever since, doing the research, prepping my body through exercise, squats, chiropractic care, and everything else I have heard. I am excited and I look forward to it. My baby is due in August and I will let you know how it goes. I have to say thank you, thank you, thank you for your podcast, Insta page, and the wealth of information you share.” Well, thank you, Kim. And guess what? It's actually August right now as we are recording, so Kim, if you are still listening, we would love to know how the birth went either way. This is one thing I want to emphasize about this podcast. Yes, we are sharing stories about VBAC and we encourage VBAC. We want people to know their options about VBAC. However, we also know that CBACs happen and that is okay too. Sometimes, we also know that they are desired and that is also okay too. I just want you to know that if you have a CBAC, we still want to share your story. We still want to hear your story and we want you to know that you are a woman of strength. We are so happy for you and proud of you. Rachel's StoryMeagan: Okay, Rachel. I am so excited. I'm not kidding you. I saw your post. It kind of went viral on all sorts of pages and I was like, “She has to. She has to be on the podcast.” I got chills reading and like I was telling you before we started recording, I can't wait to hear it from your, from your voice, and from yourself because I feel like when you are reading it, you put your own emotion and emphasis and tone into it, but I can't wait to hear yours. And then like I said, just before we were recording, listening to all of the things you've been through. You are flipping incredible. I just want you to know that I am so honored that you are here with us today to share your stories. So without further ado, I'm going to turn the time over for you to blow everyone's minds. Rachel: All righty. So a little introduction of myself, my name is Rachel Richard. I currently live in Oklahoma. I was born and raised here. I've been married to my husband, Dennis, now for going on 8 and a half years. We've known each other for about ten and we just had our fourth little baby on August 6th. I should say, big baby, not little. Meagan: A perfect, perfect-sized baby. Rachel: Yes. So a little back story on how I came to my fourth home birth after 3 C-sections. My very first one, I was 20 years old. It was my first pregnancy. I had a great pregnancy. It was very normal with no complications at all. But come 40 weeks and 2 days, I had my routine weekly checkup with my OB and they started noticing that my blood pressure was slightly elevated. Nothing concerning, but they did test my urine and I did have protein in my urine. The fear-mongering started. He brings me into his office which is outside of regular exam rooms. It was just his office. We sat down, my husband and I, and he basically says that with my weight and the fact that I wasn't dilated at 40 weeks and 2 days that it would more or less be an uphill battle for labor. Our induction methods, I guess, would be limited based on what he was telling me because I wasn't dilated. By then, I was over being pregnant. It was my first pregnancy. I didn't really know that having one C-section would lead to the cascade of issues I've had since then so, unfortunately, I was like, “Yeah. Let's have a baby!” Two and a half hours later after my appointment, he quote-on-quote “fit me in after the twins”, so I literally drove directly from the doctor's office to the hospital and they started prepping me, essentially, for the delivery. Completely no complications. It was a great delivery. I had no negative feelings toward it. I was happy I had a baby. I had a great recovery. I was up and doing everything normal after baby. Probably within two weeks, I felt like it was great. I do have an apron belly, so I did have some discomfort. I couldn't lay on my side and things like that. I basically lived in the recliner for the first few weeks which is fine, but a great baby. She was only 6 pounds, 9 ounces. Meagan: Oh, teeny. Rachel: She was tiny. I was a 10-pound baby. All my mom's babies were 10 pounds, so we were expecting a larger baby, but all of her ultrasounds were in the office by my OB, so I never had an actual tech do any of those, so all of his measurements were not accurate. He stopped measuring her at 34 weeks or whatever because she was just in weird positions. We don't really know when she stopped growing or if she really tracked to be that small. Not really sure. It is possible that I did have preeclampsia and she did have some delayed growth there, but who's to say? Maybe she's just a small baby. But anyways, other than her size, it was a great pregnancy. She was healthy. We had some breastfeeding issues, but otherwise, she was great. Fast forward to my second pregnancy, they are 2 years and 10 days apart, so I waited for a little over 15 months and got pregnant with my second. Great pregnancy. I was actually researching midwives and got turned away from several midwife groups due to my BMI which I understood. It wasn't a big deal. They have regulations they have to follow. It's whatever, but they did refer me to a VBAC-friendly, size-friendly provider. I had a great experience with her. I still like her to this day. I just have some issues with the end of my pregnancy because I was bait and switched, unfortunately. I was one of those people that had a great experience, was told I was going to have this most amazing VBAC ever, and then come 38 weeks, she pulls out her VBAC Calculator online. Just that, “Your chances of a VBAC are less than 25%.” Blah, blah, blah all because of my weight, I would need a C-section.Meagan: You're 38 weeks. At 38 weeks. Rachel: Yeah, and then she was like, “Well, and I like my VBAC moms to deliver by 39 weeks and you haven't started dilating yet.” Basically the same spiel as the first one that my chances are a lot lower because my body isn't ready, blah blah blah. He was also larger. I was seeing a perinatologist the entire time because of my suspected preeclampsia that happened two hours before my first child's delivery. That is tracked on all of my records, so they had me see that doctor just to make sure I didn't have it again. I didn't. I had to take a lot of their testing more than once because I feel like they were looking for an issue based on my weight, that I was going to have gestational diabetes or preeclampsia or whatever and I never had any of that. It was a perfect pregnancy, a perfect baby, and never had any issues. I did have a lot of NSTs and a lot of ultrasounds with that pregnancy. All of that was normal. Meagan: Do you feel like looking back that those were maybe some red flags or do you feel like they were all warranted? Rachel: Going from my third pregnancy, honestly, that was the reason. They were unwarranted. I felt like they were excessive and unnecessary. Meagan: Yes. That's a lot. Rachel: I get it that you are wanting to do that, but once you start to see that there's nothing wrong, I feel like they should have stopped and I felt like they got more frequent. In several of the appointments, I intentionally didn't go because I was just like, “I literally had one a week before and everything was fine. I feel fine and nothing has changed,” kind of things. It was really more annoying to me because I wasn't working at the time, but I had another child at home who was less than two years old and I had to find childcare because my husband was working or bringing her with me which is chaos. That was very annoying and that's kind of what led me to my fourth being unassisted was the delivery of my second. Basically, at 38 weeks, she was like, “You are not dilated. I'll have you come in again and we'll check you at 38.5.” It was a Monday at 38 weeks, and then on Friday, she checked me again. Of course, nothing had changed magically in 5 days. So she was like, “I like to deliver by 39 weeks.” Blah, blah, blah. I was just like, “Are you serious? I don't have a chance?” I cried in her office and I was very upset because I felt like I was bait and switched.I didn't know that terminology at the time, but I was like, “You've been telling me all of these rainbows and butterflies for the last 38 weeks and now the whole script has changed.” I was just very blindsided by it. There was a term I used to use and I can't remember what I used to say. It will probably come to me in a little bit, but I was devastated basically because I researched this lady. I had gone through and I was like, “I'm getting my vaginal birth. I'm getting it. That's what is going to happen this time.” And unfortunately, I felt like all of my options were stripped from me and that the only option I had at that point was another C-section. I was so devastated. At 38.5, she basically said, “We're going to schedule you for a C-section on Monday.” We got home and that appointment was early afternoon. When I got home, we started talking with my husband and I was like, “You know what? Why delay the inevitable? If you're saying I can't do anything. Nothing is going to change between 39 and 39 and a day because I think she scheduled me for Monday. I called back and I was like, “If you guys aren't just going to let me have a vaginal birth, why don't you just take him at 39 weeks?”I called them back and they scheduled me for first thing Sunday morning because I was like, “I'm not going to wait for two more days or for one more day for a C-section when you already said you wanted to take him.” I was just like, “You know what? Take him Sunday morning.” He was born. He was 9 pounds, 3 ounces at 39 weeks exactly. He would have easily been close to what my fourth was if he kept baking until he was ready, but perfect baby. Perfect delivery. I had a rough recovery. Rough. My incision didn't close for about 4 weeks and after it did close, I had multiple rounds of antibiotics because it just oozed and oozed. Once it did close, I had several seromas that developed and we were concerned that they were abscesses, so I had several ultrasounds to rule that out. I was afraid that I was going to have to be cut back open. It was rough and with having two babies, my daughter had just turned two and my daughter is delayed. Delayed I say. Developmentally she wasn't, but in speech she was. I didn't really have any communication with her. They were both still in diapers. It was like having two babies. I was also breastfeeding both of them because my daughter was still nursing full-time, so I was tandem feeding all day long. Horrible pain, it was a rough recovery. I knew after that one that I did not want another C-section ever. Unfortunately, I did end up having a third. With that recovery, it took about 7 total weeks until I was back to normal and not in any pain. My incision was healed, but it was the polar opposite of my first, and I was not expecting it, so I didn't have anything in place other than the fact that I had a recliner that I lived in basically for a month. Fast forward again a little over, so they are two and a half years apart, it was April. I had waited almost 2 years to get pregnant with my third. At that point, I knew that I did not want another C-section. I was going a different route. I was like, “I'm just going to have a home birth because obviously, the hospital is not going to let me do what I want to do.” I contacted a midwife who was actually the midwife I used this time with my fourth, but I was going the free birth, unassisted route with my third because I just felt like I could do it on my own. I was like, “You know what?” I hated everything about my second's prenatal care. I felt like it was all unnecessary, and so I was just like, “You know what? I'll just go unassisted. I'll have the baby unassisted and I can do this. It's totally fine.” I went 42 weeks and a day completely unassisted. I did have one ultrasound at 26 weeks when we found out that he was a boy. Everything was normal. I really did that for two things: to know the placental placement and make sure that there wasn't any kind of Previa. Meagan: Yeah, especially with what you were planning. Rachel: I didn't want anything to be interfering with that. Everything was perfect. He was fine. Measuring fine. Everything developmentally was great. There weren't any red flags on his health or mine, so I felt comfortable with that. It was the only ultrasound and the only prenatal care I had up until the day before he was born. Everything was great. I had friends over. I had several weeks of random days of prodromal labor that would last 14-17 hours. Knowing what I know now after my fourth if I would have known because I didn't know what a contraction felt like. I never had contractions with my first two, so going into my third, prodromal labor felt like labor to me because I hadn't felt what a real contraction was. So every time I started having consistent contractions, I would call my doula over, call my friends over, call the birth photographer over, expecting it to go anywhere, but unfortunately, it went nowhere. It really wasn't painful, so that's another red flag for me knowing what I know now. If I would have had somebody there, I mean, yes. My doula was there, but she couldn't feel what I was feeling and it was just one of those things. I just kept getting my hopes and kept getting my hopes up and kept getting my hopes up for several days and it led nowhere. My best friend at the time and the photographer both go out of town for the weekend of 42 weeks. I turned 42 weeks on Friday. They both leave town, and so I'm just feeling abandoned basically. Meagan: Yeah. I was going to say, feeling alone. Rachel: Yeah, alone and not necessarily scared, but the unknown was there and I was just like, “Can I do this fully alone?” And knowing that my husband– he's a great guy and all, but he's not very supportive when I'm in pain or anything like that, so I knew I couldn't count on him during the birth. Any kind of trauma, my son cut his finger this past week and he was freaking out. He's not one of those people that can keep calm, so I knew he was going to cause more of a problem for me if it was just me and him. I knew I needed somebody else. I did have my doula. She's a great girl and I went to school with her in elementary school, but we didn't reconnect until my pregnancy. So there's a big gap in our lives that we didn't really have time to catch up on. She was a friend of mine, but it wasn't that close relationship that I would have needed to feel confident in my own abilities. I knew I needed somebody to support me. I don't know why, but I expected to get support from nurses and staff at a hospital. Little did I know, that wasn't going to happen. At 40 weeks on my due date, I also had family and stuff barking down my neck because I'd had two C-sections. Meagan: You hadn't had a baby yet. Rachel: Yeah, and that. It was 42 weeks. I had two C-sections previously. Everybody was like, “What are you doing?” And so at 42 weeks exactly, I went to the hospital by myself which I should have never done. I went by myself. I walked in and was like, “I just need to have an ultrasound to check baby's position.” Blah, blah, blah. They sent me up to triage in labor and delivery. Everybody is looking at me like I have five heads because they are asking me who my OB is and I tell them that I don't have one and I don't have any prenatal care at 42 weeks with two previous C-sections. They think I'm a nut job and I can hear them whispering behind the sheets and stuff because it was just a triage room. I didn't even get a room. They did an NST. Everything was fine. They did an ultrasound. Everything was fine aside from their wanting to scare me with calcification on the placenta which is normal. Everything was fine. He was still head down. He was in a great position. Then, I was just like, “Okay cool. I'll just go home.” I should have just gone home and gone to bed, but I didn't. They basically cornered me in the room with two nurses and the OB there and were like, “We don't want you to leave without having a C-section. You should have a C-section today.” I was there by myself. I was like, “You know what? Let me call my husband because I don't feel comfortable right now. I can't make a decision basically.” I ended up signing an AMA. I told them that I was going to go to another hospital where I delivered my second. I signed that and so I was like, “You know what? I'm just going to go there. They're going to allow me to have a VBAC. Everything will be fine.” No. I get to the hospital. Checked in. I'm in a labor and delivery room. They check me. I'm a 3.5 which is the most I've ever been dilated and I was so happy. Meagan: Yeah, that's a great starting point.Rachel: Right. Right, I thought so. The nurse was even like, “That's good.” Her eyes perked up a little and she went to go get the OB. He still said, “We're not going to induce you. We're not going to give you anything.” I didn't want Pitocin because of the additional risk of uterine rupture. I was 42 weeks. I had two C-sections. That wasn't something that I wanted, but I was like, “Give me a Foley bulb or give me something. Or just give me time.” I felt that because I hadn't had prenatal care, I didn't want to sign an AMA a second time, just because I didn't want any DHS or anybody else trying to get involved just because of my choice of how I wanted to do things. In my head, I was in this battle of, “I don't want a C-section. That's the last thing I want, but I also don't feel comfortable going home.” I felt the need to stay, but at the same time, I was getting brick-walled by these providers that were saying, “No. There's no option.” Even with my doula there asking them hundreds of questions of, “Can I do this? What about this?”I was having contractions, but they weren't consistent at the time. I wasn't in active labor, and so they couldn't really do anything besides give me time which they weren't going to do because I was 42 weeks and I'd had two C-sections. I needed to be delivered now in their heads. Meagan: Yeah, even though nothing was saying that. Rachel: Nothing was wrong. Baby and I were fine. There were no issues, but this provider was just stone-walled. He was not changing his mind even after finding out what I was dilated to. Didn't change anything. I just was again, devastated. Like, “What do you mean I have no option? You're totally ripping it away basically.” In my head, I still felt like I was able to. There was nothing dire that was happening that would prevent me, but I was still being told, “No. It's not an option.” I, unfortunately, went along with it and signed the documents to have another C-section. It happened the morning after because they needed more OBs on staff. I ended up having a total of four surgeons during my C-section, my third C-section which probably was a great idea because I had a lot of scar tissue with all of the seromas and the rough recovery from my second. There was a lot of scar tissue that was in the way and whatnot that they had to cut away. It took about 40 minutes to get to my son during that delivery. He did have to be intubated in the OR, but by the time they get down the hall going to the NICU, he had already pulled out the tube. It didn't last long and he was fine. He had to be, based on their protocol, on oxygen for a certain amount of time, and then they were able to pull him off and whatnot. I didn't get to hold him until a little after he was 24 hours old. That was rough. After he got out and they cut away all of the scar tissue, they put me back together and everything was fine. I healed amazingly and I had a great recovery with that one. He was 9 pounds, 9 ounces at 42 weeks and a day. He was technically smaller than my second son who was 9 pounds, 3 ounces at 39 weeks. We were expecting him to be bigger honestly but he wasn't. He was a great chunky baby and healthy. Everything was great with him after the initial shock of it all. His issues with breathing initially very well could have been from those four surgeons putting all of that weight on me during delivery and getting him out. After all of that, I decided that enough was enough. I told my midwife when I first contacted her that I will never step foot in a hospital again unless there is a true emergency because I just don't ever want to be in that position where I feel like somebody is revoking an option that is still a valid option. Meagan: Yeah. Rachel: That feeling of your brain telling you, “You can do it. What are you talking about? You can do it,” but then everybody else in the room is saying, “No. You can't.” It's like I was forced in a way and unfortunately, that's just the way that it was. After that, I just knew that if I were to have a fourth, it would be a redeeming, healing birth and I wasn't allowing anyone or anything to get involved. It was November of last year, I found out I was pregnant. I was actually going through a weight-loss program because I was planning on having weight-loss surgery and I found out I was pregnant, so we put all of that on hold. I contacted my midwife immediately and she said basically that there was nothing that was going to get in the way. She was totally on board. She tells me now that even though I didn't hire her for my third, as a midwife, she felt like she failed me in that birth because she wasn't involved in the end. If she would have known that I was in that position, she would have stepped in. I wish I would have reached out to her, but I didn't unfortunately. But with my fourth, I had her involved the entire pregnancy. I had prenatals with her. I was actually going to an OB just so that insurance could cover the initial ultrasounds because I did want with it being my third, again, I wanted to make sure that everything was fine. Everything was fine. At 22 or 23 weeks, I just ghosted that OB because as soon as they started saying, “We're going to do this at the next appointment for the baby,” I'm just like, “Nope. You're not telling me to do nothing.” I did their blood tests, but I never did anything else. I never did the glucose. I never did any of the other testing or vaccines or anything that they were pushing on me. I just wasn't going to have that. So I ghosted them and we continued our prenatal visits with the midwife. Everything was great. I actually wasn't going to find out what we were having. I did get the blood test results at 12 weeks and I told my closest friends, but my husband and I didn't know. I was in this position where I was going to tell all of them because I had a girl and then two boys. So I was like, “If it's a boy,” and in my head, I was convinced that it was a boy.I was like, “I'm just going to have another boy. I have everything for the boys. It's fine.” I kept everything, but then in my head, I'm like, “If it's a girl, I'm screwed. I've got to start over from scratch.” I was like, “Well, if I find out now,” in my head, it was already a boy, so I was just in this battle. I was like, “Do I wait or do I not? It would be the greatest surprise of life if I wait until birth.” But at the same time, I knew that if it was going to be a girl, which, in my head, it wasn't going to be, I was going to have to start over. I was going to panic. I want to be prepared for a girl if it is a girl because I want to buy all of the things. So I tell my friends. They all find out. Nobody spills the beans to me, and then I started getting these little inklings in the weeks. I waited four months before I found out after we had the results. I could have known by the click of a button, but I didn't. I refrained, but I started getting these inklings of, “It might just be a girl.” I found a massive amount of clearance girls' stuff for a dollar each at Walmart. Little things. I'm like, “Mmm, it might just be a girl,” and I bought all of it. I was like, “It's probably a boy, but I'll buy it all just in case.”Meagan: Just in case, yeah. Rachel: All of my friends are trying not to give it away because I told them all. You know, if it's a boy, it's fine. I'll still use them. Most of it was towels and things like that. I didn't know anybody who was having a girl. I just thought I would donate it if it was a girl. My friend took me out to lunch. I decided, “Do a reveal to me somehow because that way it is still a surprise and I won't be disappointed if it is one way or another.” I was going to love the baby the same. I've had two boys and a girl, so I had the experience of both. So I was like, “Whatever it is, it is. Nothing is going to change whether I find out today or in two or three months when he or she is born.” In my head, it was still a boy. We went out to lunch and my friend called the bartender over to make a virgin drink in the color that it was going to be. Meagan: Aww, that's cute. Rachel: We went to lunch and she took a picture of me when I found out. I bawled. I looked at her because I thought she ordered it for herself. She orders drinks for herself. She just starts looking at me and staring at me as soon as the bartender set the drink down. She was like, “Do you know what this means?” I was like, “What? What kind of drink did you get?” She was like, “Do you know what this means?” I was like, “Wait. Is it a girl?” And I just started bawling. I was like, “No it's not. It's not a girl. There's no way.” We wanted a girl so bad. Having two of each would perfectly end everything. I was convinced that it wasn't. I was like, “This has to be wrong,” and immediately, before we even left that little diner, I called and had a same-day ultrasound scheduled with a private ultrasound place to confirm that it was a girl. We went straight over there and sure enough, it was a girl. I was like, “I still don't believe it. I really don't.” In my head, it was so clear as day that it was going to be a boy. I think, in my head, I was doing that to make myself feel better because I knew I wanted a girl so badly. That was exciting. We got a girl. Our fourth is a girl. I had a great pregnancy. I did start prodromal labor again, unfortunately, probably around 37 weeks. I knew I had started to drop because she started to “disappear” every time I took a picture. I had no belly anymore. People were like, “Did you have the baby already?” I'm like, “No, still pregnant. She's just hiding.” Even my midwife was hopeful that it was an indication that I was going to go early. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. I actually tested positive for COVID the week of my due date. Meagan: Of course. Rachel: And the AC in our house went out. This is the middle of July. We were out of our house. We were in a hotel for three nights and then four more nights at my in-laws' house. This was the week of my delivery or the week of my due date. So I was like, “Uh-uh.” I was very upset by the fact that I could possibly have a random hotel or my in-laws' address on the birth certificate and that was wigging me out. I was like, “No. I built this house that we live in. I want the address on the birth certificate to be our home. I want to deliver at home.” The thought of having my first delivery at some random location, I think, put me off. I didn't really have any prodromal labor, thank God, during the week that we were away from home and nothing really happened. We get back home the week of 41 weeks. That Tuesday after we got back, I mowed my lawn with my zero-return mower and the bumpiness of it started more prodromal labor. Really, it's like it never went away, though. My prodromal labor was really like early labor but took forever. It started that night. The next day, I was 40 weeks and 4 days on a Wednesday. I had a little baby shower with my office at my real estate office because I'm a real estate agent here locally. We had a little baby shower that week and I lost my mucus plug before I left the office, part of it. Every day after that, I would lose more of it, and then that Sunday after, I was 41 and 2 days. I lost some bloody show. Meagan: You started having bloody show, yeah. Rachel: Yeah, but every day I was having these contractions usually at night. They were painful. It wasn't until I started losing my bloody show that they started to wrap around my back. That last week was pretty miserable. I wasn't sleeping. I couldn't lie down. The last few days, I couldn't lie down on my side anymore because every time I would lay on my side, it was very frequent which was great that it was progressing, but I just needed relief. I was changing positions. My favorite position, which was kind of silly, was the only position I could find. I have a picture of me sitting on my ball leaning up to the end of my bed with a pillow behind my head. I was sitting, it was almost like I was in a recliner which, I wish we had a recliner here but we don't. I was sitting on the birth ball with my feet on the ground and leaning back onto my bed. I was able to get 20-30 minute breaks between contractions. That's the only time I slept for the last four days in that position because it just never ended.Any time I was up and awake and doing stuff throughout the day, I was still getting the kids ready. I have three other kids here and was still doing daily activities, but the last couple of days, I was so exhausted and miserable that I just was reclused in my room. I didn't open my door. I didn't want to do anything besides have a baby. I was miserable, tired, uncomfortable, and in pain. I was in and out of the bath. I took several baths a day, but when the contractions would get going, I wasn't comfortable there anymore. It wasn't until, I'd have to look back at my text messages with my midwife, but two days before I actually had her, I really thought I was going to go into labor because I just had this shift in feeling where I was having a lot of back labor, a lot. It was only happening in my back in a way. I could handle my front cramping, but my back was uncontrollable. I just wanted to cry. No position was comfortable. The same thing, I couldn't sleep. I get through it. I get breaks here and there. The night before I had her, I literally didn't sleep at all. I didn't have any breaks between contractions. I stayed awake. I was pretty miserable. I was laid up in the morning and all afternoon. I didn't leave my bed. I put on those little diaper things. I didn't even care. I was going to pee on myself. I didn't care. I didn't want to move. I just sat on my bed and leaned up against some pillows and this rubber dinosaur thing that my kids had. It was kind of in the shape of a peanut ball. It's about the same size. I would lean up against that on the wall of my bed. I basically sat there for hours. I basically laid there watching TV and just contracting the entire time. I was moaning through some of them, but it wasn't until I got up to go to the bathroom that I felt something. I was like, “Mmm, that's weird.” I got up. It was probably about 1:00. I go to the bathroom and I wipe and I feel my bag bulging. I feel it. Meagan: Ooh. Oh. Rachel: Yeah, feel it bulging. It wasn't all the way out, but I could feel it there. I was like, “Oop.” I texted the midwife and I was like, “You probably should come over because the bag is bulging.” That was my first sure sign that it was happening soon. That was the first time that I was like, “Okay. The end is near. I can start to feel excited again,” because I was just in this dread of in-between contractions of just no relief and annoyed that it was taking so long. It was 42 weeks and a day, finally felt some progress. My bag starts bulging at 1:00 and I'm excited, telling everybody, updating everyone, and then probably about an hour and a half later, the midwife gets there. She's trying to get me into a good mental state, getting all of the kids out of the house. My dad ended up taking the kids and my other three. My roommate here took her two boys and they went fishing and did some other stuff, and got out of the house, so that really helped with the chaos. I was able to relax a little bit more. It got quiet. I turned on some music. I was in and out of the bath. I just couldn't get comfortable. I really wanted a water birth, but I was really just trying to focus on following my body, listening to what I needed, and getting comfortable where I was. Meagan: However you could. Rachel: Yeah, really. The only place, again, that I could get comfortable was on my birth ball. I spent pretty much the entire time there. My midwife did leave and sat in the driveway for a little bit because she feels like in a way, that birth is to be undisturbed as far as her presence. She sometimes feels like she doesn't need to be there. So she did sit in the driveway for a little while just to give me time alone. I didn't mind that, but I was texting her and she was like, “Anytime you want me to come back, just let me know.” I was like, “I enjoy the company.” My husband was in the other room playing a game. Like I said, anytime I'm in pain and whatnot, he's just not good. In fact, he still hasn't watched the birth videos. He won't. I'm going to get him to one of these days just to have him see it all. He was there when it happened, but he didn't want to see anything. So around 3:45, I get in the bath while the midwife was in the driveway and I noticed and felt that my water bag was out further. It was sticking out. I could feel it from the outside. I was curious about it. I kept telling my midwife, “It's still bulging and I can feel it.” At that time, she was kind of skeptical. She was like, “Are you sure it's the bag? Or whatever.” I was like, “No, I'm pretty sure. It feels like a water balloon to me.” It was squeaky-rubbery. In my head, that's how I felt like it was. I get my phone to take a picture and I took a video because I couldn't reach the button, so I have a video of my bags bulging. As soon as I get the phone down there, it pops and bursts, so I have a video of my bags bursting. Meagan: That's amazing. Rachel: Yeah, so I have a quick video of that. I was shocked, but yeah. I posted that before the baby was even born on our unassisted group on Facebook and everybody was like, “Oh my god, I've never seen that before.” A lot of people haven't ever even seen a bag. Most bags break when they are still inside or it will be when the head is right there. There was nothing there, but it was pretty cool. My midwife said that she was googling, “How dilated do you have to be to have your bags so far out?” We had no idea. We didn't do any cervical checks or anything like that. It was all just a guessing game, but that was probably about 3:45-4:00 when my bags officially burst. And then after that, it was just kind of like, “Okay. Now it's really going to happen today.” Again, I wasn't really crying or in a lot of pain. I mean, it was uncomfortable, but I had a very– to me, in my head, vaginal delivery, I guess because of the media and all of the videos and stuff I've seen, I thought I was going to be more vocal and in a lot more pain. I thought it was going to be more exaggerated than it was. To me, it felt like it was just going to keep going. I was expecting it to increase or intensify, but I think also that the days and days and days of prodromal labor numbed me to it all maybe. I don't know. In my head, I was like, “I've got a long way to go. This is not that bad,” but my midwife started to notice certain cues as I was laboring like different sounds I was making and things like that that she knew that we were getting close. But again, to me, it was all the same. It was no different. I couldn't distinguish one contraction that was more intense than the other or anything like that. I just sat on my birth ball and leaned onto the wooden vanity that I had in my bathroom. The crease in the wood on the shelf was hitting me in the palm, kind of like how people use the comb technique. That's kind of how I used it in a way to counter any kind of pain I was feeling. My midwife was sitting in front of me. She actually had a folding chair we got her and she was sitting in the shower. We have a curb-less shower. She was facing me and taking notes. Her assistant was texting her and she was just giving her updates. I have all of those screenshots. It's really cute to see, “She's a warrior.” They were just hyping me up through text. It was so cool. I didn't get to see any of those until after the birth and she sent me everything. She was taking pictures of me during contractions and little videos and stuff because she knew I was going to want that, but also, it was helping her little intern learn through my experience too. We get through– it was probably 8:00ish by the time I just couldn't get comfortable. I felt like I needed to get off of the ball. I was going to get in the bath. That lasted all of three seconds and I drained the water. I was like, “Not going to happen.” I couldn't sit. I couldn't lean. I couldn't do anything in the water. I was not comfortable so I immediately got out. I tried to sit on the toilet and the contractions were way too intense. I couldn't do it. I wanted to crawl up the wall. I had my husband lean in front of me and I couldn't even get up off the toilet because every time– that's when I knew that things were progressing really fast. I needed to get comfortable as soon as I could. I tried to sit back on my ball and I was comfortable, but I felt like the pressure– I needed to get off my butt. I moved onto my bed and as soon as I got on my knees and pillows in front of me, I just started feeling the urge to push. It all started probably at about 9:00-9:15.I only pushed for about 15 minutes. In the last five minutes or so, her head was out, but we were trying to get her shoulders out. My midwife reached in just to check to see if there was a cord around the neck or anything like that. There wasn't a cord, but as soon as she stuck a couple of fingers in to check for the cord, her shoulder popped out and she just shot out. It was at 9:31 when she was born. Immediately following her, my midwife says, was three gallons of water. It came in waves. Unfortunately, I didn't have a mattress protector on my mattress, so that was a regret, but it's fine. They used literally every towel in the house and every chux pad that we had left and it was still seeping through my bed. They tried. As soon as they got her out, she was fine. She was crying right away, but when I went to turn over from my knees to my back, I turned over without them realizing that I was turning over and my midwife was holding the baby. When I turned over, her cord snapped, so it was kind of this quick, frantic, “Get the cord clamp!” My husband was standing in the corner and I just remember looking at him. He was panicked. He was like, “Oh my god.” He was traumatized by the last three C-sections.With my third, when he followed the baby to the NICU, he turned to me and said, “Please don't die.” He was traumatized. I think, after my third, I knew that not only could I not have another C-section, I couldn't put my husband through it. I felt bad the moment after my fourth was born that I was now traumatizing him again. But this time was all under control. They just got the clamp. It was fine. As soon as I got turned over, they moved the baby to me. Within five to ten minutes, the placenta came out. Everything was fine. Everything went great. I didn't have any bleeding really. I barely tore. Probably about 30 minutes after she was born, we weighed her. We all took our guesses. I was guessing 9,7 only because my birthday is September 7th and I was like, “My boys were 9. I'll just do it in the middle.” And no. From the moment she came out, my midwife was like, “This is an 11-pound baby.” I said, “No way. Absolutely no way, an 11-pound baby.” Everybody else in the room was guessing in the 9's, low 10's. We get out the scale and sure enough, she's 11,1. My midwife was like, “I told you.” I didn't believe it. After the midwife left, I had my husband hold her and weigh her on the scale, then put her down and weigh on the scale again and sure enough, she was 11 pounds. I was like, “What!” I was like, “Did I really just do that and didn't even really tear?” Within a few days, I didn't even feel the tear anymore. It was already healed. And so, yeah. Honestly, it took me several days. It still doesn't really hit me now, but I had the birth that I've always wanted. I feel like I was expecting it to be worse. I know that it sounds weird, but I was expecting to have to scream, cry, or be in excruciating pain. I was expecting there to be more going on, but it was like this, not an out-of-body experience, but I felt like I was living through someone– maybe it was out-of-body. I was expecting more of it. After it was done, I was like, “That's it?” You know? Like, “That's all?”Meagan: That's all? Wait. Rachel: Yeah. I just was expecting more. I don't know why. Maybe it's just because in my head, I've worked it up for so many years expecting this and I watched so many birth videos and things like that. I just wanted to so badly, but in my head, it was going to go such a different way. I mean, it was great, but I was expecting more as in it to be worse. Meagan: Yeah, right. Rachel: But, no. I had an amazing delivery. The entire time, I was supported by my loved ones and my midwife. My midwife's assistant got there 30 minutes before she was born, right when we were getting on the bed and getting comfortable with the pillows and stuff. She came in and it was the perfect time because that apprentice assistant had also had three C-sections and a home birth with my midwife. It was almost like I got to experience what she did and she got to see it through another person. Meagan: Yeah, I love it. Rachel: Yeah, and I think my midwife put it this way. She got to give me what she experienced herself with my midwife. The same midwife delivered her baby at home. Meagan: So awesome. So awesome. Rachel: We both got to get that experience and it was healing for me, but I think it was also healing for her especially because she had those preconceived beliefs about weight that would interfere with my birth and it went fine. She had some fears lingering with that and for her to witness it and see that women like myself have just as much strength as anyone else. I've shared my birth videos with people and they are shocked that I am quiet and I seem calm. I really felt that way. I didn't have any pain. I don't remember feeling any pain. I just remember feeling it burn during pushing, but it wasn't me pushing. The only push that I forced out was at the very end because we were concerned about her shoulders being stuck because we knew that she was big by the time her head came out. She didn't have any molding or anything like that. It came out round as all could be. By that time, we realized that there was a possibility of her shoulders getting stuck, but no. They just came right out. She was fine. It was just a very healing experience. Redeeming in a way. I love that word. It was redemption. Meagan: Absolutely. Rachel: People keep saying, “Don't you just want to rub it in all of your providers' faces?” And honestly, I do. I wish more women like myself could experience this because I feel like the option is taken away even though it shouldn't be. I have friends that have felt the very same thing as myself, that bait and switch. Even personally, locally, they feel like they never got the option. It just makes me, I don't want to say angry, but it is angering for sure. I just wish that more women would try to push to experience this or find a provider like my own that refused to believe that I couldn't do it until something was shown that was truly indicative that something was interfering. But because this option is taken away from so many women, it's even harder for those of us that push for it to get it. Even fewer midwives are willing to take on plus-size women. I was over 415 pounds on the day of delivery. When people think of that, I mean, I carry it well. I'm 5'8”. I'm very proportioned. I have no mobility issues. I have no pain or any issues with my joints or anything like that. I'm very healthy and strong, but my weight is my weight and my BMI is what it is. That's what providers see. They don't see my body. They don't see my abilities, my physical strength. They don't see any of that. Unfortunately, for many women, it's the same. Even with mobility issues or things like that, it doesn't interfere with your cervix. It doesn't interfere with your uterus or the biology of birth itself. I wish that wouldn't hold people back. Yes, there are risks associated with your weight and being bigger, but there should be more than just the number that predetermines how you should birth. Meagan: Yes. Rachel: And unfortunately, with a lot of providers, even midwives, it is about the number on the paper. I'm grateful that my midwife refused to just see the number because she knew what I weighed. I told her. I was honest. She knows me and my ability. I have three kids. I am active with them. I can squat for days. I will squat competition you and beat you. I just have strength in my body. Regardless of my weight, I have the ability to do more than a number on a scale. Meagan: Yeah. I love that. I love that you said that because there is a slightly increased risk for BMI over 30, but that doesn't mean you can't do it. Even with those risks being increased, it should be noted that ACOG, RCOG, and SCOG still don't say that it means that you have to have an automatic Cesarean. It doesn't mean that you can't do it. We actually have a blog all about it. We talk about it. We have a plus-sized blog and we will make sure that it is in the show notes. It is possible. Stand up for yourself. You were saying, “I'll take you on.” Don't judge a book by its cover. Just because someone is plus-sized doesn't mean they don't have the ability to do what some people think is unachievable. Rachel: Right. I mean, yeah. Not that I think their ability shouldn't be tested–Meagan: Right, exactly. True, yes. Rachel: My body was tested over and over and over with my third being with my size, but I feel like there should be an obvious distinction between somebody that physically can't, that may have some biological issues that may interfere with– maybe their pelvis was broken at one point and things like that that are seriously considered. But just because of my weight, just because of this, which is all an assumption and unfortunately, those assumptions somehow become fact, and that just because of a number or my size or whatever automatically means that my cervix doesn't work or that my uterus is incompetent or something. In my brain, it doesn't make sense. Yeah. That's what I refuse to allow medical providers or people in general, even family that had doubts about my abilities which is all out of fear. Meagan: Yeah, and uneducated.Rachel: Yeah or just been misguided, or told certain things about it. Everybody that I have talked to is like, “Oh, I thought you always had to have a C-section after you had one.” That whole “once a C-section always a C-section”, is like no. My midwife herself has delivered a home birth after 7 C-sections. It happens. Her body didn't forget how to birth. It just was not given the chance. Meagan: Doubted, yeah. Rachel: My midwife does more VBACs or home births, she'll even go to the hospital if you want to go the hospital, but she does more HBACs than regular first-time moms or repeat vaginal births. She takes on people that nobody else will take on because she wants to be that outlet and she has this heritage midwife training that she's doing to extend her knowledge and her outreach to more midwives so that they will start taking on. She educates on the true risks of VBACs and things like that and that they aren't to be feared. A lot of people have a lot of fear somehow that every time a woman births after a C-section that her uterus is just going to explode or something. That's just not how it works. Meagan: Right. Rachel: She has a lot of insight and experience with VBACs. She is a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate her so much for advocating for those like myself and giving us a chance when nobody else will. Big huge props to my midwife for that.Meagan: Absolutely. Rachel: It's just been an amazing experience. Sitting here with my baby who is three weeks old now which, to me, it's gone by way too fast. I can see maybe a week, but three is– no. She's still little. She had slow gaining after I had her because my milk came in about four days after she was born. I mean, she was a big girl. She was pretty chunky. She had a lot to lose. She did lose a little over a pound, but she's back up there now and eating like crazy. She's healthy and great. Nothing wrong with her or myself. I feel amazing. I've been out and about since day three after I had her. I was taking my kids to school. I had the meet-the-teacher night four days after she was born, so we all went together. Even the day before that, I went out to lunch with just the baby and me. I wasn't in any pain and it was a whole different experience having a vaginal birth than a C-section because I wasn't cut open. I didn't have an open sore. Meagan: Right. Recovery was better. Rachel: Yeah. I didn't feel like– I mean, yes. I had pain but it was only when I nursed. It was just the initial pains the first few days and then obviously when I went pee, it burned. But I got some numbing spray that helped with that. I tell people every time I'm out. “How are you out? I was still on the couch.” I'm like, “Don't let it fool you. I'm still wearing a diaper.” But physically, I feel amazing.Meagan: Good. Rachel: It's the polar opposite and I wish I could have had this experience for every one of them, but in a way, it makes this one that much more special because I didn't get that with the first three. I've learned so much more about myself and I've gained a lot more strength and confidence in myself after my second, and then with the third unassisted pregnancy and then a third repeat C-section, I think that really just put me over the edge where I just had this empowerment in a way that I knew I was going to get the birth that I wanted and nothing was going to get in the way. I just had this peace about it. It was really hard the last few days especially, just because I had such a long prodromal journey in the end. It lasted over two weeks and I was just miserable. But that last day, I really started just to get that peace back. Meagan: Good. Yeah, I love that. Rachel: It was going to happen. It was going to happen. It was going to happen the way it was meant to happen and it just went. I got happy again once my bag started bulging. I was like, “All right. We're going.”Meagan: We've got this. Rachel: I was happy because before, it was a dreadful journey the last few weeks. Every time I thought it was going to happen, it didn't. I got amped up and got let down over and over. But I knew that my body needed that time. It really helped, I think, with the pain. Even though it lasted forever and I was uncomfortable and whatnot, I think in the very end, I think that really helped with the management of the pain just because I was expecting it to get worse and it never did. I had that peace and calm through the whole end of my active labor. Even through transition, which looking back now, I can see when that happened, but yeah. I really think the long prodromal journey played a huge part. Maybe my body just needed extra time to mold and transition and expand and whatnot because it had never done it before. Meagan: Yep. We've just got to allow our bodies time and peace. Well, you're amazing. Rachel: Even if I had gone into labor with my first or my second, it's very possible that I could have wound right back up as a C-section because my body just naturally needs more time. Looking back, I feel like I don't think anything would have changed. Meagan: Yeah. Rachel: I think that if I would have gone through labor before and it ended up in a C-section, I feel like maybe that would make me doubt myself more looking back. Just reflecting on it, I just feel like maybe if I had done it and then ended up in a C-section, maybe I would have doubted myself more and this is just the way that my journey has had to come to have that confidence in myself. I'm very much that person where it's like, if you tell me I can't do something, I'll do it and stare you down in the face and laugh at you afterward kind of thing. Like, “Oh. Do you think I can't? Watch me.”Meagan: Right.Rachel: I feel like maybe that was just the way my journey was supposed to be and this way, I have a little bit more of an impact on my experience for people. I've had three Cesarean births and I had a home birth of an 11-pound baby on my bed in my house. Meagan: Yes. Oh, so amazing. So amazing. Rachel: Yeah. I just think it couldn't have happened any better and I'm more than happy with how it ended up. I would do it over and over again, but my husband is pretty adamant that he is getting a vasectomy and he is done. Meagan: Oh well, hey. That happened to me too. Rachel: It hasn't been scheduled and it hasn't happened so you know, you never know. There might be a fifth. Meagan: Well, if another one comes, you just let us know. I really appreciate you so much for coming. I seriously loved it and it's going to be amazing. Rachel: Aww, well thank you guys for having me and letting me share my story because I definitely want it to help others like myself.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

With Rachel Stewart, President of Gardner White Furniture    The three most important elements for a healthy lifestyle consist of getting enough sleep, eating nutritious food, and exercising. While a healthy, nutritious diet and regular exercise are essential for a healthy lifestyle, giving our body time to rest and recharge is also vital to our health and wellbeing. Studies have shown that a chronic lack of sleep for an extended period of time can lead to serious medical conditions such as diabetes and increase the risk of heart disease and high blood pressure.    But what is a sufficient amount of sleep? While we should try to get at least 8 hours of sleep, it's important to make sure the time we spend in bed is quality sleep. We need to give our body and mind the opportunity for comfort and relaxation. If we're sleeping fitfully or tossing and turning all night long, the source of our inability to sleep might be our mattress . Mattresses don't last forever and it may be time to replace yours. But with so many different types of mattresses on the market today, it can be challenging to know which mattress is best to meet our needs. That's why we need the advice of a trained expert.   Today, we're going to talk to Rachel Stewart from Gardner White Furniture, the number one mattress store in Michigan. Rachel is an expert in the different types of mattresses and she's here to explain how choosing the right mattress can lead to a better night's sleep.   What You'll Hear on This Episode: How often should you get a new mattress and what should you do with the old one? Why is getting a good night's sleep so important to our health and wellbeing? How could a lack of sleep affect us mentally, emotionally, and physically? Can the type and condition of the mattress we have really affect our sleep? Is a firmer or softer mattress better? If you suffer from chronic neck or back pain issues, which type of mattress is best for you? How can you tell that your mattress is getting old? What is a dual comfort mattress? What are the best mattresses available today and do they always cost more? What are motion base mattresses or sleep systems? Why do you recommend lying on a variety of different mattresses before purchasing them? What tips or suggestions do you have for people who come into the store to try out the various mattress types? What is the difference between store bought mattresses and the type of mattresses in a box ordered online? If a new mattress isn't in your budget right now, are there things one can do to extend the life of their current mattress? Today's Takeaway:  A chronic lack of sleep is not only exhausting, it may also be harmful to our health. In addition to the health issues we've already mentioned, weight gain and a weakened immune system can also result from a lack of sleep. Although there are a variety of reasons why we're not getting the sleep we need, one of the easiest to correct is having a comfortable, supportive mattress. Since there is no such thing as a “one size fits all type of mattress”, finding a mattress that meets your needs can be a very personal experience. While you may prefer a firm rather than a soft mattress, that may not be your sleeping partner's first choice. As we heard today, there are options such as dual comfort mattresses to address that issue. In addition, because mattresses come in a variety of materials and price, the wide range of mattress types can feel overwhelming. That's why it's important to seek the advice of a mattress expert. They can answer all your questions and help you decide which type of mattress is best suited to meet both of your needs. Getting a good night's sleep and making sure your body has a chance to rest and recuperate is not a luxury, it's a necessity for maintaining good health and peak performance. Remember that everyday is a gift and the gift of a good night's sleep is easily attainable when the mattress we're sleeping on is the cause of our sleepless nights. I'm Florine Mark and that's “Today's Takeaway.” Quotes: “You know it when it's not working for you anymore. It's just not comfortable.” - Rachel “If we do not sleep enough, we have seen there's a 45 % increase in heart disease, 2x as likely to get cancer, 3x as likely to get diabetes, 5x as likely to be depressed.” - Rachel  “We need to find a way to prioritize what we sleep on to make sure it fits our body.” - Rachel “The big thing when you're looking at sleep is spinal alignment. If your spine is not aligned, you're not going to be sleeping well.” - Rachel “It really comes down to comfort. If you're not comfortable you're not sleeping well.” - Rachel Brought to You By: Gardner White Furniture   Mentioned in This Episode:  Gardner White Furniture - Mattresses  

In this episode, Rachel and Stuart's discussion builds off of the major themes of the book, The Connector Manager:  Why Some Leaders Build Exceptional Talent—and Others Don't, by Jaime Roca and Sari Wilde.     Key Moments:•   Through his own early experiences, Stuart confirms the existence of the myth of the “all-knowing manager”•   Baseball cards•   Props to Malcom Gladwell•   The importance of curiosity and how both Rachel and Stuart think it is essential for anyone who desires to be an exceptional manager•   Rachel tells of a particular professional experience in which she experienced the overwhelmingness of constant mentor feedback•   Rachel:  ‘It all starts with knowing your employees' Click here to purchase The Connector Manager For additional management resources and information, please visit us at:  https://managementworksmedia.com You can email us at:  managementworks@managementworksmedia.com If you would like to help keep our show running through a donation of your choosing, please visit our Patreon page. As an Amazon affiliate, Management Works earns from qualifying purchases.Support the show

We continued in our reading of the Evergetinos hypothesis 20 on the importance of revealing one's thoughts to an elder. The struggle in the spiritual life entails letting go of embarrassment and shame that often plague us - in order that we might freely acknowledge our sins or the thoughts that lead to them. The revelation of these thoughts must be received by elders with the greatest care and tenderness. It is both the perseverance of the one struggling and the patience of the caregiver, the elder, that brings healing. Over and over again we are presented with stories of those who overcome their fear of shame and in their freedom to acknowledge their sin come to experience freedom from the sin itself. Therefore, the fathers hold up before us humility, truthful living; bringing all that is within the mind and heart into the light of Christ. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:15:01 FrDavid Abernethy: page 165 number 3   00:37:30 Daniel Allen: What page are we on?   00:37:45 Ambrose Little, OP: 167   00:37:53 Daniel Allen: Thank you   00:42:38 Ambrose Little, OP: Seems like it's less a question of whether this or that father is particularly learned, but that God wants us to seek the guidance of others as an expression of humility and so, through that, will guide us. We may or may not get a "wise" answer, but the actual experience of that humility is in itself instructive and the Spirit will teach us through that.   00:55:10 Ambrose Little, OP: accompaniment

A quick episode on hard hats from Bill and Rachel: It wasn't until after World War I that standardized, tactical equipment for the prevention of workplace noggin bonking came into existence and use. Links and notes for ep. 425 (PDF): http://arsenalfordemocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/AFD-Ep-425-Links-and-Notes-Hard-Hats.pdf Theme music by Stunt Bird. The post May 8, 2022 – Hard Hats – Arsenal For Democracy Ep. 425 appeared first on Arsenal For Democracy.

Tonight, I have to say, was one of the most beautiful groups on the Evergetinos that we have had to date. I do not say this lightly given how wonderful the past groups have been; but this hypothesis (19) opens up for us the meaning of obedience in such a way that one begins to understand that it is a virtue to be loved precisely because it draws us into love.  Obedience is therapeutic; it brings about healing for the soul. It place one in a right relationship with God and so heals the wounds of sin. Obedience leads to intimacy; he who does the will of My Father in heaven is my mother, my brother, my sister. We are drawn into the most intimate relationship with a Most Holy Trinity, Christ tells us explicitly, so much so that He and the Father will come to us and serve us when we have been faithful.  Indeed we already know the fruit of this in every celebration in Holy Mass. We need to only ask ourselves: “Who is it that sits at this table and who is it that serves?”  Christ has made himself the obedient One and through His obedience has given us all; nourishing us upon His life and love. Our obedience allows us to respond in kind; it removes every impediment to our giving and receiving love. --- Text of chat during the group:  00:05:53 Rachel: Hola everyone.   00:07:56 Rachel: Road rage?   00:24:45 Ambrose Little: I remember reading St. Francis de Sales recommending that readily assenting to requests, even of our inferiors (e.g., even one's small children), is a kind of obedience. It is submitting our will to that of another.   00:26:23 Sarah Kerul-Kmec: Elder Paisios is a great example of this. giving over his will to a small child in an act of obedience   00:29:11 Daniel Allen: Would it be correct to equate obedience then as laying aside one's own ego and preference to respond to the need of the other? Not to over simplify the topic but also trying to understand the common theme among the examples presented.   00:30:38 Rachel: It seems in this type of obedience to the reality of the person right in front of you God is not only trying to teach you something but He is offering Himself! This is the perfect example of what St. Maximus just said   00:34:18 Fr. Ben Butler: Yes, agreed. Well said about confession.   00:34:59 Ambrose Little: I think so, Daniel. It's a sacrifice of ego on behalf of another. Easier said than done!   00:35:06 Daniel Allen: Sorry question is above just prior to Rachel's   00:38:41 Rachel: Wow   00:43:54 Forrest Cavalier: Is there a footnote about the camel in your English translation?   00:51:12 Forrest Cavalier: Marriage vocations are delayed, too.   00:52:16 David Robles: Father David, maybe it would be useful to point out that we do not obey the commandments as an exercise in ethics, or finishing a to do list, a set of rules, a legalistic requirement. For the Fathers , obedience to the commandments is something dynamic, nothing less than our participation in the Life of the Holy Trinity. The commandments are also therapeutic. Following them heals us. Finally we have the promise of the Lord Himself who in the gospel of John tells us, "whoever obeys my commandments is the one who loves Me... And the Lord promises that He and His Father will come into the heart of such a one and dwell in him.   00:55:47 Rachel: Obedience seems to be very closely related to purity of heart.  David Robles just expanded on that point I think.   00:55:52 Rachel: I'm so sorry!   00:57:17 Ambrose Little: John 5:19; 31 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise…. “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”  John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." Divine union is often seen as the culmination of the contemplative life.   01:02:44 Rachel: What if one ( no this is not pertaining to me) finds  there is a request or advice given by someone that contradicts what their conscience tells them? What if the person is a confessor or spiritual director? For a parent or spouse or friend this seems pretty clear cut but a confessor or spiritual director?   01:02:57 Rachel: LOL   01:04:37 Erick chastain: it is interesting reflecting on obedience after palm Sunday. I found myself wanting to make more sacrifices for Jesus after seeing how much our Lord lowered himself for me.   01:09:12 Ashley Kaschl: Seems like Newman is on the mind, because these paragraphs and sections are reminding me of the last part of a quote by St John Henry Newman,    “Therefore, I will trust Him, whatever I am, I can never be thrown away.    If I am in sickness, my sickness may serve Him, in perplexity, my perplexity may serve Him. If I am in sorrow, my sorrow may serve Him. He does nothing in vain. He knows what He is about. He may take away my friends. He may throw me among strangers. He may make me feel desolate, make my spirits sink, hide my future from me. Still, He knows what He is about.”   It seems that obedience is tied up, then, in trust and hope, and that these sections we're reading demand a sort of stretching of our trust in God's plan and will for our lives to its limits so that God can show us the depths where we might find joy in our obedience no matter the circumstance.   01:10:02 Ashley Kaschl: Sorry

About RachelRachel leads product and technical marketing for Chronosphere. Previously, Rachel wore lots of marketing hats at CloudHealth (acquired by VMware), and before that, she led product marketing for cloud-integrated storage at NetApp. She also spent many years as an analyst at Forrester Research. Outside of work, Rachel tries to keep up with her young son and hyper-active dog, and when she has time, enjoys crafting and eating out at local restaurants in Boston where she's based.Links: Chronosphere: https://chronosphere.io Twitter: https://twitter.com/RachelDines Email: rachel@chronosphere.io TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: The company 0x4447 builds products to increase standardization and security in AWS organizations. They do this with automated pipelines that use well-structured projects to create secure, easy-to-maintain and fail-tolerant solutions, one of which is their VPN product built on top of the popular OpenVPN project which has no license restrictions; you are only limited by the network card in the instance. To learn more visit: snark.cloud/deployandgoCorey: Couchbase Capella Database-as-a-Service is flexible, full-featured and fully managed with built in access via key-value, SQL, and full-text search. Flexible JSON documents aligned to your applications and workloads. Build faster with blazing fast in-memory performance and automated replication and scaling while reducing cost. Capella has the best price performance of any fully managed document database. Visit couchbase.com/screaminginthecloud to try Capella today for free and be up and running in three minutes with no credit card required. Couchbase Capella: make your data sing.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A repeat guest joins me today, and instead of talking about where she works, instead we're going to talk about how she got there. Rachel Dines is the Head of Product and Technical Marketing at Chronosphere. Rachel, thank you for joining me.Rachel: Thanks, Corey. It's great to be here again.Corey: So, back in the early days of me getting started, well, I guess all this nonsense, I was an independent consultant working in the world of cloud cost management and you were over at CloudHealth, which was effectively the 800-pound gorilla in that space. I've gotten louder, and of course, that means noisier as well. You wound up going through the acquisition by VMware at CloudHealth, and now you're over at Chronosphere. We're going to get to all of that, but I'd rather start at the beginning, which, you know, when you're telling stories seems like a reasonable place to start. Your first job out of school, to my understanding, was as an analyst at Forrester is that correct?Rachel: It was yeah. Actually, I started as a research associate at Forrester and eventually became an analyst. But yes, it was Forrester. And when I was leaving school—you know, I studied art history and computer science, which is a great combination, makes a ton of sense—I can explain it another time—and I really wanted to go work at the equivalent of FAANG back then, which was just Google. I really wanted to go work at Google.And I did the whole song-and-dance interview there and did not get the job. Best thing that's ever happened to me because the next day a Forrester recruiter called. I didn't know what Forrester was—once again, I was right out of college—I said, “This sounds kind of interesting. I'll check it out.” Seven years later, I was a principal analyst covering, you know, cloud-to-cloud resiliency and backup to the cloud and cloud storage. And that was an amazing start to my career, that really, I'm credited a lot of the things I've learned and done since then on that start at Forrester.Corey: Well, I'll admit this: I was disturbingly far into my 30s before I started to realize what it is that Forrester and its endless brethren did. I'm almost certain you can tell that story better than I can, so what is it that Forrester does? What is its place in the ecosystem?Rachel: Forrester is one of the two or three biggest industry analyst firms. So, the people that work there—the analysts there—are basically paid to be, like, big thinkers and strategists and analysts, right? There's a reason it's called that. And so the way that we spent all of our time was, you know, talking to interesting large, typically enterprise IT, and I was in the infrastructure and operations group, so I was speaking to infrastructure, ops, precursors to DevOps—DevOps wasn't really a thing back in ye olden times, but we're speaking to them and learning their best practices and publishing reports about the technology, the people and the process that they dealt with. And so you know, over a course of a year, I would talk to hundreds of different large enterprises, the infrastructure and ops leaders at everyone from, like, American Express to Johnson & Johnson to Monsanto, learn from them, write research and reports, and also do things like inquiries and speaking engagements and that kind of stuff.So, the idea of industry analysts is that they're neutral, they're objective. You can go to them for advice, and they can tell you, you know, these are the shortlist of vendors you should consider and this is what you should look for in a solution.Corey: I love the idea of what that role is, but it took me a while as a condescending engineer to really wrap my head around it because I viewed it as oh, it's just for a cover your ass exercise so that when a big company makes a decision, they don't get yelled at later, and they said, “Well, it seemed like the right thing to do. You can't blame us.” And that is an overwhelmingly cynical perspective. But the way it was explained to me, it really was put into context—of all things—by way of using the AWS bill as a lens. There's a whole bunch of tools and scripts and whatnot on GitHub that will tell you different things about your AWS environment, and if I run them in my environment, yeah, they work super well.I run them in a client environment and the thing explodes because it's not designed to work at a scale of 10,000 instances in a single availability zone. It's not designed to do backing off so it doesn't exhaust rate limits across the board. It requires a rethinking at that scale. When you're talking about enterprise-scale, a lot of the Twitter zeitgeist, as it were, about what tools work well and what tools don't for various startups, they fail to cross over into the bowels of a regulated entity that has a bunch of other governance and management concerns that don't really apply. So, there's this idea of okay, now that we're a large, going entity with serious revenue behind this, and migrating to any of these things is a substantial lift. What is the right answer? And that is sort of how I see the role of these companies in the ecosystem playing out. Is that directionally correct?Rachel: I would definitely agree that that is directionally correct. And it was the direction that it was going when I was there at Forrester. And by the way, I've been gone from there for, I think, eight-plus years. So, you know, it's definitely evolved it this space—Corey: A lifetime in tech.Rachel: Literally feels like a lifetime. Towards the end of my time there was when we were starting to get briefings from this bookstore company—you might have heard of them—um, Amazon?Corey: Barnes and Noble.Rachel: Yes. And Barnes and Noble. Yes. So, we're starting to get briefings from Amazon, you know, about Amazon Web Services, and S3 had just been introduced. And I got really excited about Netflix and chaos engineering—this was 2012, right?—and so I did a bunch of research on chaos engineering and tried to figure out how it could apply to the enterprises.And I would, like, bring it to Capital One, and they were like, “Ya crazy.” Turns out I think I was just a little bit ahead of my time, and I'm seeing a lot more of the industry analysts now today looking at like, “Okay, well, yeah, what is Uber doing? Like, what is Netflix doing?” And figure out how that can translate to the enterprise. And it's not a one-to-one, right, just because the people and the structures and the process is so different, so the technology can't just, like, make the leap on its own. But yes, I would definitely agree with that, but it hasn't necessarily always been that way.Corey: Oh, yeah. Like, these days, we're seeing serverless adoption on some levels being driven by enterprises. I mean, Liberty Mutual is doing stuff there that is really at the avant-garde that startups are learning from. It's really neat to see that being turned on its head because you always see these big enterprises saying, “We're like a startup,” but you never see a startup saying, “We're like a big enterprise.” Because that's evocative of something that isn't generally compelling.“Well, what does that mean, exactly? You take forever to do expense reports, and then you get super finicky about it, and you have so much bureaucracy?” No, no, no, it's, “Now, that we're process bound, it's that we understand data sovereignty and things like that.” But you didn't stay there forever. You at some point decided, okay, talking to people who are working in this industry is all well and good, but time for you to go work in that industry yourself. And you went to, I believe, NetApp by way of Riverbed.Rachel: Yes, yeah. So, I left Forrester and I went over to Riverbed to work on their cloud storage solution as a product marketing. And I had an amazing six months at Riverbed, but I happened to join, unfortunately, right around the time they were being taken private, and they ended up divesting their storage product line off to NetApp. And they divested some of their other product lines to some other companies as part of the whole deal going private. So, it was a short stint at Riverbed, although I've met some people that I've stayed in touch with and are still my friends, you know, many years later.And so, yeah, ended up over at NetApp. And it wasn't necessarily what I had initially planned for, but it was a really fun opportunity to take a cloud-integrated storage product—so it was an appliance that people put in their data centers; you could send backups to it, and it shipped those backups on the back end to S3 and then to Glacier when that came out—trying to make that successful in a company that was really not overly associated with cloud. That was a really fun process and a fun journey. And now I look at NetApp and where they are today, and they've acquired Spot and they've acquired CloudCheckr, and they're, like, really going all-in in public cloud. And I like to think, like, “Hey, I was in the early days of that.” But yeah, so that was an interesting time in my life for multiple reasons.Corey: Yeah, Spot was a fascinating product, and I was surprised to see it go to NetApp. It was one of those acquisitions that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me at the time. NetApp has always been one of those companies I hold in relatively high regard. Back when I was coming up in the industry, a bit before the 2012s or so, it was routinely ranked as the number one tech employer on a whole bunch of surveys. And I don't think these were the kinds of surveys you can just buy your way to the top of.People who worked there seemed genuinely happy, the technology was fantastic, and it was, for example, the one use case in which I would run a database where its data store lived on a network file system. I kept whining at the EFS people over at AWS for years that well, EFS is great and all but it's no NetApp. Then they released NetApps on tap on FSX as a first-party service, in which case, okay, thank you. You have now solved every last reservation I have around this. Onward.And I still hold the system in high regard. But it has, on some level, seen an erosion. We're no longer in a world where I am hurling big money—or medium money by enterprise standards—off to NetApp for their filers. It instead is something that the cloud providers are providing, and last time I checked, no matter how much I spend on AWS they wouldn't let me shove a NetApp filer into us-east-1 without asking some very uncomfortable questions.Rachel: Yeah. The whole storage industry is changing really quickly, and more of the traditional on-premises storage vendors have needed to adapt or… not, you know, be very successful. I think that NetApp's done a nice job of adapting in recent years. But I'd been in storage and backup for my entire career at that point, and I was like, I need to get out. I'm done with storage. I'm done with backup. I'm done with disaster recovery. I had that time; I want to go try something totally new.And that was how I ended up leaving NetApp and joining CloudHealth. Because I'd never really done the startup thing. I done a medium-sized company at Riverbed; I'd done a pretty big company at NetApp. I've always been an entrepreneur at heart. I started my first business on the playground in second grade, and it was reselling sticks of gum. Like, I would go use my allowance to buy a big pack of gum, and then I sold the sticks individually for ten cents apiece, making a killer margin. And it was a subscription, actually. [laugh].Corey: Administrations generally—at least public schools—generally tend to turn a—have a dim view of those things, as I recall from my misspent youth.Rachel: Yeah. I was shut down pretty quickly, but it was a brilliant business model. It was—so you had to join the club to even be able to buy into getting the sticks of gum. I was, you know, all over the subscription business [laugh] back then.Corey: And area I want to explore here is you mentioned that you double-majored. One of those majors was computer science—art history was sort of set aside for the moment, it doesn't really align with either direction here—then you served as a research associate turned analyst, and then you went into product marketing, which is an interesting direction to go in. Why'd you do it?Rachel: You know, product marketing and industry analysts are there's a lot of synergy; there's a lot of things that are in common between those two. And in fact, when you see people moving back and forth from the analyst world to the vendor side, a lot of the time it is to product marketing or product management. I mean, product marketing, our whole job is to take really complex technical concepts and relate them back to business concepts and make them make sense of the broader world and tell a narrative around it. That's a lot of what an analyst is doing too. So, you know, analysts are writing, they're giving public talks, they're coming up with big ideas; that's what a great product marketer is doing also.So, for me, that shift was actually very natural. And by the way, like, when I graduated from school, I knew I was never going to code for a living. I had learned all I was going to learn and I knew it wasn't for me. Huge props, like, you know, all the people that do code for a living, I knew I couldn't do it. I wasn't cut out for it.Corey: I found somewhat similar discoveries on my own journey. I can configure things for a living, it's fun, but I still need to work with people, past a certain point. I know I've talked about this before on some of these shows, but for me, when starting out independently, I sort of assumed at some level, I was going to shut it down, and well, and then I'll go back to being an SRE or managing an ops team. And it was only somewhat recently that I had the revelation that if everything that I'm building here collapses out from under me or gets acquired or whatnot and I have to go get a real job again, I'll almost certainly be doing something in the marketing space as opposed to the engineering space. And that was an interesting adjustment to my self-image as I went through it.Because I've built everything that I've been doing up until this point, aligned at… a certain level of technical delivery and building things as an engineer, admittedly a mediocre one. And it took me a fair bit of time to get, I guess, over the idea of myself in that context of, “Wow, you're not really an engineer. Are you a tech worker?” Kind of. And I sort of find myself existing in the in-between spaces.Did you have similar reticence when you went down the marketing path or was it something that you had, I guess, a more mature view of it [laugh] than I did and said, “Yeah, I see the value immediately,” whereas I had to basically be dragged there kicking and screaming?Rachel: Well, first of all, Corey, congratulations for coming to terms with the fact that you are a marketer. I saw it in you from the minute I met you, and I think I've known you since before you were famous. That's my claim to fame is that I knew you before you were famous. But for me personally, no, I didn't actually have that stigma. But that does exist in this industry.I mean, I think people are—think they look down on marketing as kind of like ugh, you know, “The product sells itself. The product markets itself. We don't need that.” But when you're on the inside, you know you can have an amazing product and if you don't position it well and if you don't message it well, it's never going to succeed.Corey: Our consulting [sub-projects 00:14:31] are basically if you bring us in, you will turn a profit on the engaging. We are selling what basically [unintelligible 00:14:37] money. It is one of the easiest ROI calculations. And it still requires a significant amount of work on positioning even on the sales process alone. There's no such thing as an easy enterprise sale.And you're right, in fact, I think the first time we met, I was still running a DevOps team at a company and I was deploying the product that you were doing marketing for. And that was quite the experience. Honestly, it was one of the—please don't take this the wrong way at all—but you were at CloudHealth at the time and the entire point was that it was effectively positioned in such a way of, right, this winds up solving a lot of the problems that we have in the AWS bill. And looking at how some of those things were working, it was this is an annoying, obnoxious problem that I wish I could pay to make someone else's problem, just to make it go away. Well, that indirectly led to exactly where we are now.And it's really been an interesting ride, just seeing how that whole thing has evolved. How did you wind up finding yourself at CloudHealth? Because after VMware, you said it was time to go to a startup. And it's interesting because I look at where you've been now, and CloudHealth itself gets dwarfed by VMware, which is sort of the exact opposite of a startup, due to the acquisition. But CloudHealth was independent for years while you were there.Rachel: Yeah, it was. I was at CloudHealth for about three-plus years before we were acquired. You know, how did I end up there? It's… it's all hazy. I was looking at a lot of startups, I was looking for, like, you know, a Series B company, about 50 people, I wanted something in the public cloud space, but not storage—if I could get away from storage that was the dream—and I met the folks from CloudHealth, and obviously, I hadn't heard about—I didn't know about cloud cost management or cloud governance or FinOps, like, none of those were things back then, but I was I just was really attracted to the vision of the founders.The founders were, you know, Joe Kinsella and Dan Phillips and Dave Eicher, and I was like, “Hey, they've built startups before. They've got a great idea.” Joe had felt this pain when he was a customer of AWS in the early days, and so I was like—Corey: As have we all.Rachel: Right?Corey: I don't think you'll find anyone in this space who hasn't been a customer in that situation and realized just how painful and maddening the whole space is.Rachel: Exactly, yeah. And he was an early customer back in, I think, 2014, 2015. So yeah, I met the team, I really believed in their vision, and I jumped in. And it was really amazing journey, and I got to build a pretty big team over time. By the time we were acquired a couple of years later, I think we were maybe three or 400 people. And actually, fun story. We were acquired the same week my son was born, so that was an exciting experience. A lot of change happened in my life all at once.But during the time there, I got to, you know, work with some really, really cool large cloud-scale organizations. And that was during that time that I started to learn more about Kubernetes and Mesos at the time, and started on the journey that led me to where I am now. But that was one of the happiest accidents, similar to the happy accident of, like, how did I end up at Forrester? Well, I didn't get the job at Google. [laugh]. How did I end up at CloudHealth? I got connected with the founders and their story was really inspiring.Corey: Couchbase Capella Database-as-a-Service is flexible, full-featured and fully managed with built in access via key-value, SQL, and full-text search. Flexible JSON documents aligned to your applications and workloads. Build faster with blazing fast in-memory performance and automated replication and scaling while reducing cost. Capella has the best price performance of any fully managed document database. Visit couchbase.com/screaminginthecloud to try Capella today for free and be up and running in three minutes with no credit card required. Couchbase Capella: make your data sing.Corey: It's amusing to me the idea that, oh, you're at NetApp if you want to go do something that is absolutely not storage. Great. So, you go work at CloudHealth. You're like, “All right. Things are great.” Now, to take a big sip of scalding hot coffee and see just how big AWS billing data could possibly be. Yeah, oops, you're a storage company all over again.Some of our, honestly, our largest bills these days are RDS, Athena, and of course, S3 for all of the bills storage we wind up doing for our customers. And it is… it is not small. And that has become sort of an eye-opener for me just the fact that this is, on some level, a big data problem.Rachel: Yeah.Corey: And how do you wind up even understanding all the data that lives in just the outputs of the billing system? Which I feel is sort of a good setup for the next question of after the acquisition, you stayed at VMware for a while and then matriculated out to where you are now where you're the Head of Product and Technical Marketing at Chronosphere, which is in the observability space. How did you get there from cloud bills?Rachel: Yeah. So, it all makes sense when I piece it together in my mind. So, when I was at CloudHealth, one of the big, big pain points I was seeing from a lot of our customers was the growth in their monitoring bills. Like, they would be like, “Okay, thanks. You helped us, you know, with our EC2 reservations, and we did right-sizing, and you help with this. But, like, can you help with our Datadog bill? Like, can you help with our New Relic bill?”And that was becoming the next biggest line item for them. And in some cases, they were spending more on monitoring and APM and like, what we now call some things observability, they were spending more on that than they were on their public cloud, which is just bananas. So, I would see them making really kind of bizarre and sometimes they'd have to make choices that were really not the best choices. Like, “I guess we're not going to monitor the lab anymore. We're just going to uninstall the agents because we can't pay this anymore.”Corey: Going down from full observability into sampling. I remember that. The New Relic shuffle is what I believe we call it at the time. Let's be clear, they have since fixed a lot of their pricing challenges, but it was the idea of great suddenly we're doing a lot more staging environments, and they come knocking asking for more money but it's a—I don't need that level of visibility in the pre-prod environments, I guess. I hate doing it that way because then you have a divergence between pre-prod and actual prod. But it was economically just a challenge. Yeah, because again, when it comes to cloud, architecture and cost are really one and the same.Rachel: Exactly. And it's not so much that, like—sure, you know, you can fix the pricing model, but there's still the underlying issue of it's not black and white, right? My pre-prod data is not the same value as my prod data, so I shouldn't have to treat it the same way, shouldn't have to pay for it the same way. So, seeing that trend on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, 2017, 2018, I started working on the container cost allocation products at CloudHealth, and we were—you know, this was even before that, maybe 2017, we were arguing about, like, Mesos and Kubernetes and which one was going to be, and I got kind of—got very interested in that world.And so once again, as I was getting to the point where I was ready to leave CloudHealth, I was like, okay, there's two key things I'm seeing in the market. One is people need a change in their monitoring and observability; what they're doing now isn't working. And two, cloud-native is coming up, coming fast, and it's going to really disrupt this market. So, I went looking for someone that was at the intersection of the two. And that's when I met the team at Chronosphere, and just immediately hit it off with the founders in a similar way to where I hit it off with the founders that CloudHealth. At Chronosphere, the founders had felt pain—Corey: Team is so important in these things.Rachel: It's really the only thing to me. Like, you spend so much time at work. You need to love who you work with. You need to love your—not love them, but, you know, you need to work with people that you enjoy working with and people that you learn from.Corey: You don't have to love all your coworkers, and at best you can get away with just being civil with them, but it's so much nicer when you can have a productive, working relationship. And that is very far from we're going to go hang out, have beers after work because that leads to a monoculture. But the ability to really enjoy the people that you work with is so important and I wish that more folks paid attention to that.Rachel: Yeah, that's so important to me. And so I met the team, the team was fantastic, just incredibly smart and dedicated people. And then the technology, it makes sense. We like to joke that we're not just taking the box—the observability box—and writing Kubernetes in Crayon on the outside. It was built from the ground up for cloud-native, right?So, it's built for this speed, containers coming and going all the time, for the scale, just how much more metrics and observability data that containers emit, the interdependencies between all of your microservices and your containers, like, all of that stuff. When you combine it makes the older… let's call them legacy. It's crazy to call, like, some of these SaaS solutions legacy but they really are; they weren't built for cloud-native, they were built for VMs and a more traditional cloud infrastructure, and they're starting to fall over. So, that's how I got involved. It's actually, as we record, it's my one-year anniversary at Chronosphere. Which is, it's been a really wild year. We've grown a lot.Corey: Congratulations. I usually celebrate those by having a surprise meeting with my boss and someone I've never met before from HR. They don't offer your coffee. They have the manila envelope of doom in front of them and hold on, it's going to be a wild meeting. But on the plus side, you get to leave work early today.Rachel: So, good thing you run in your own business now, Corey.Corey: Yeah, it's way harder for me to wind up getting surprise-fired. I see it coming [laugh]—Rachel: [laugh].Corey: —aways away now, and it looks like an economic industry trend.Rachel: [sigh]. Oh, man. Well, anyhow.Corey: Selfishly, I have to ask. You spent a lot of time working in cloud cost, to a point where I learned an awful lot from you as I was exploring the space and learning as I went. And, on some level, for me at least, it's become an aspect of my identity, for better or worse. What was it like for you to leave and go into an orthogonal space? And sure, there's significant overlap, but it's a very different problem aimed at different buyers, and honestly, I think it is a more exciting problem that you are in now, from a business strategic perspective because there's a limited amount of what you can cut off that goes up theoretically to a hundred percent of the cloud bill. But getting better observability means you can accelerate your feature velocity and that turns into something rather significant rather quickly. But what was it like?Rachel: It's uncomfortable, for sure. And I tend to do this to myself. I get a little bit itchy the same way I wanted to get out of storage. It's not because there's anything wrong with storage; I just wanted to go try something different. I tend to, I guess, do this to myself every five years ago, I make a slightly orthogonal switch in the space that I'm in.And I think it's because I love learning something new. The jumping into something new and having the fresh eyes is so terrifying, but it's also really fun. And so it was really hard to leave cloud cost management. I mean, I got to Chronosphere and I was like, “Show me the cloud bill.” And I was like, “Do we have Reserved Instances?” Like, “Are we doing Committed Use Discounts with Google?”I just needed to know. And then that helped. Okay, I got a look at the cloud bill. I felt a little better. I made a few optimizations and then I got back to my actual job which was, you know, running product marketing for Chronosphere. And I still love to jump in and just make just a little recommendation here and there. Like, “Oh, I noticed the costs are creeping up on this. Did we consider this?”Corey: Oh, I still get a kick out of that where I was talking to an Amazonian whose side project was 110 bucks a month, and he's like, yeah, I don't think you could do much over here. It's like, “Mmm, I'll bet you a drink I can.”—Rachel: Challenge accepted.Corey: —it's like, “All right. You're on.” Cut it to 40 bucks. And he's like, “How did you do that?” It's because I know what I'm doing and this pattern repeats.And it's, are the architectural misconfigurations bounded by contacts that turn into so much. And I still maintain that I can look at the AWS bill for most environments for last month and have a pretty good idea, based upon nothing other than that, what's going on in the environment. It turns out that maybe that's a relatively crappy observability system when all is said and done, but it tells an awful lot. I can definitely see the appeal of wanting to get away from purely cost-driven or cost-side information and into things that give a lot more context into how things are behaving, how they're performing. I think there's been something of an industry rebrand away from monitoring, alerting, and trending over time to calling it observability.And I know that people are going to have angry opinions about that—and it's imperative that you not email me—but it all is getting down to the same thing of is my site up or down? Or in larger distributed systems, how down is it? And I still think we're learning an awful lot. I cringe at the early days of Nagios when that was what I was depending upon to tell me whether my site was up or not. And oh, yeah, turns out that when the Nagios server goes down, you have some other problems you need to think about. It became this iterative, piling up on and piling up on and piling up on until you can get sort of good at it.But the entire ecosystem around understanding what's going on in your application has just exploded since the last time I was really running production sites of any scale, in anger. So, it really would be a different world today.Rachel: It's changing so fast and that's part of what makes it really exciting. And the other big thing that I love about this is, like, this is a must-have. This is not table stakes. This is not optional. Like, a great observability solution is the difference between conquering a market or being overrun.If you look at what our founders—our founders at Chronosphere came from Uber, right? They ran the observability team at Uber. And they truly believe—and I believe them, too—that this was a competitive advantage for them. The fact that you could go to Uber and it's always up and it's always running and you know you're not going to have an issue, that became an advantage to them that helped them conquer new markets. We do the same thing for our customers. Corey: The entire idea around how these things are talked about in terms of downtime and the rest is just sort of ludicrous, on some level, because we take specific cases as industry truths. Like, I still remember, when Amazon was down one day when I was trying to buy a pair of underwear. And by that theory, it was—great, I hit a 404 page and a picture of a dog. Well, according to a lot of these industry truisms, then, well, one day a week for that entire rotation of underpants, I should have just been not wearing any. But no here in reality, I went back an hour later and bought underpants.Now, counterpoint: If every third time I wound up trying to check out at Amazon, I wound up hitting that error page, I would spend a lot more money at Target. There is a point at which repeated downtime comes at a cost. But one-offs for some businesses are just fine. Counterpoint with if Uber is down when you're trying to get a ride, well, that ride [unintelligible 00:28:36] may very well be lost for them and there is a definitive cost. No one's going to go back and click on an ad as well, for example, and Amazon is increasingly an advertising company.So, there's a lot of nuance to it. I think we can generally say that across the board, in most cases, downtime bad. But as far as how much that is and what form that looks like and what impact that has on your company, it really becomes situationally dependent.Rachel: I'm just going to gloss over the fact that you buy your underwear on Amazon and really not make any commentary on that. But I mean—Corey: They sell everything there. And the problem, of course, is the crappy counterfeit underwear under the Amazon Basics brand that they ripped off from the good underwear brands. But that's a whole ‘nother kettle of wax for a different podcast.Rachel: Yep. Once again, not making any commentary on your—on that. Sorry, I lost my train of thought. I work in my dining room. My husband, my dog are all just—welcome to pandemic life here.Corey: No, it's fair. They live there. We don't, as a general rule.Rachel: [laugh]. Very true. Yeah. You're not usually in my dining room, all of you but—oh, so uptime downtime, also not such a simple conversation, right? It's not like all of Amazon is down or all of DoorDash is down. It might just be one individual service or one individual region or something that is—Corey: One service in one subset of one availability zone. And this is the problem. People complain about the Amazon status page, but if every time something was down, it reflected there, you'd see a never ending sea of red, and that would absolutely erode confidence in the platform. Counterpoint when things are down for you and it's not red. It's maddening. And there's no good answer.Rachel: No. There's no good answer. There's no good answer. And the [laugh] yeah, the Amazon status page. And this is something I—bringing me back to my Forrester days, availability and resiliency in the cloud was one of the areas I focused on.And, you know, this was once again, early days of public cloud, but remember when Netflix went down on Christmas Eve, and—God, what year was this? Maybe… 2012, and that was the worst possible time they could have had downtime because so many people are with their families watching their Doctor Who Christmas Specials, which is what I was trying to watch at the time.Corey: Yeah, now you can't watch it. You have to actually talk to those people, and none of us can stand them. And oh, dear Lord, yeah—Rachel: What a nightmare.Corey: —brutal for the family dynamic. Observability is one of those things as well that unlike you know, the AWS bill, it's very easy to explain to people who are not deep in the space where it's, “Oh, great. Okay. So, you have a website. It goes well. Then you want—it gets slow, so you put it on two computers. Great. Now, it puts on five computers. Now, it's on 100 computers, half on the East Coast, half on the West Coast. Two of those computers are down. How do you tell?”And it turns in—like, they start to understand the idea of understanding what's going on in a complex system. “All right, how many people work at your company?” “2000,” “Great. Three laptops are broken. How do you figure out which ones are broken?” If you're one of the people with a broken laptop, how do you figure out whether it's your laptop or the entire system? And it lends itself really well to analogies, whereas if I'm not careful when I describe what I do, people think I can get them a better deal on underpants. No, not that kind of Amazon bill. I'm sorry.Rachel: [laugh]. Yeah, or they started to think that you're some kind of accountant or a tax advisor, but.Corey: Which I prefer, as opposed to people at neighborhood block parties thinking that I'm the computer guy because then it's, “Oh, I'm having trouble with the printer.” It's, “Great. Have you tried [laugh] throwing away and buying a new one? That's what I do.”Rachel: This is a huge problem I have in my life of everyone thinking I'm going to fix all of their computer and cloud things. And I come from a big tech family. My whole family is in tech, yet somehow I'm the one at family gatherings doing, “Did you turn it off and turn it back on again?” Like, somehow that's become my job.Corey: People get really annoyed when you say that and even more annoyed when it fixes the problem.Rachel: Usually does. So, the thread I wanted to pick back up on though before I got distracted by my husband and dog wandering around—at least my son is not in the room with us because he'd have a lot to say—is that the standard industry definition of observability—so once again, people are going to write to us, I'm sure; they can write to me, not you, Corey, about observability, it's just the latest buzzword. It's just monitoring, or you know—Corey: It's hipster monitoring.Rachel: Hipster monitoring. That's what you like to call it. I don't really care what we call it. The important thing is it gets us through three phases, right? The first is knowing that something is wrong. If you don't know what's wrong, how are you supposed to ever go fix it, right? So, you need to know that those three laptops are broken.The next thing is you need to know how bad is it? Like, if those three laptops are broken is the CEO, the COO, and the CRO, that's real bad. If it's three, you know, random peons in marketing, maybe not so bad. So, you need to triage, you need to understand roughly, like, the order of magnitude of it, and then you need to fix it. [laugh].Once you fix it, you can go back and then say, all right, what was the root cause of this? How do we make sure this doesn't happen again? So, the way you go through that cycle, you're going to use metrics, you might use logs, you might use traces, but that's not the definition of observability. Observability is all about getting through that, know, then triage, then fix it, then understand.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. If people do want to learn more, give you their unfiltered opinions, where's the best place to find you?Rachel: Well, you can find me on Twitter, I'm @RachelDines. You can also email me, rachel@chronosphere.io. I hope I don't regret giving out that email address. That's a good way you can come and argue with me about what is observability. I will not be giving advice on cloud bills. For that, you should go to Corey. But yeah, that's a good way to get in touch.Corey: Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.Rachel: Yeah, thank you.Corey: Rachel Dines, Head of Product and Technical Marketing at Chronosphere. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, and castigate me with an angry comment telling me that I really should have followed the thread between the obvious link between art history and AWS billing, which is almost certainly a more disturbing Caravaggio.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

HIGHLIGHTSGetting to know Rachel GaspariniSelling in the developer space with LaunchDarklySales is also about helping peopleEmpowering more women to enter the sales professionWhat is Rachel's superpower?Intent counts more than techniqueWhy women struggle with self-beliefUse feedback to elevate yourselfWhat we're all grateful forQUOTESRachel: "Sales is a tough job. There's a lot of highs and lows and I think to have that determination and fire, you have to determine your 'why'. Like what is the bigger thing that you're working towards so that if you're having a good day or a bad day in sales, you're still fueled by it."Rachel: "It's so important for women in particular to have role models that look like them, talk like them, have similar interests. I think we work with amazing people across the board, but we all got to have some role models to inspire us to believe that it's possible to get to the next step."Rachel: "Being different can be good. Our buyers are becoming more diverse with different levels of interest and different ways they can communicate. It ended up being a really big strength for me and I started to lean into it rather than trying to fit the mold."Rachel: "People who are willing to accept a mistake or misstep or maybe even you doing something without the highest degree of polish, as long as your intent is right."Connect with Rachel in the links below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rsparini/Website: https://launchdarkly.com/Find out more about Esellas, visit https://www.esellas.com/.

Tonight we continued with Hypothesis 18 on the importance of seeking the company of virtuous people and questioning so as to learn about the spiritual life. What we find in the writings and the lives of the desert fathers is a stress on the importance of seeking counsel. One never walks spiritual life in isolation. We should foster a zeal within us to talk about the spiritual life with those who have experiential knowledge that is rooted in many years of striving to live the gospel in its fullness. We are given one example after another of individuals seeking out the counsel of elders, being swept up in the desire for their wisdom, and being willing to travel great distances to learn from them. May God instill within our hearts that same yearning and urgent longing for God and for the truth. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:06:57 Mark: Which version of “The Ladder” are you going to use?   00:07:39 Rachel: good to know   00:08:18 Eric Williams: I shared some quotes from the Evergetinos with my Saturday morning men's group   00:08:37 Anthony: Nice   00:12:27 carolnypaver: Page?   00:13:12 Fr. Miron Jr.: 135   00:16:07 Anthony: They had a visit, it was time to go, and the went outside to leave but kept talking for hours?  Maybe they were Italian. ;)   00:17:40 sue and mark: they must have been!   00:23:45 Anthony: Does this maybe come as a result of the "frentic energy" which Father David warns against? A kind of energy that just wants to be dissipated but not focused?   00:34:22 John Clark: Personally praying the rosary silently keeps me in constant contact with the Lord and Holy Spirit   00:46:28 Rachel: It is mostly our own vice   00:50:17 Anthony: Heresy of Americanism, too   00:51:44 Eric Williams: Catholics have forgotten how to be in the world but not of it.   00:53:30 Erick Chastain: Bp athanasius schneider   01:00:02 Eric Williams: Is this a stone age tool? ;)   01:01:03 Rachel: " Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord.."..   01:04:10 Eric Williams: Unfortunately, big books/sets are hard sells these days, even to those who seem engaged in their faith. Attention spans are short, people are busy, and we're conditioned to pay attention to sound bites and memes.   01:07:42 Eric Williams: I still have your notes from the Climacus group you led years ago (20?). :)   01:10:07 Rachel: WOW!!   01:13:01 Erick Chastain: can confirm about cmu   01:13:38 Rachel: I feel like that everytime I talk lol   01:13:57 Wayne: gotta go   01:14:41 Eric Williams: I've always appreciated how succinct and to the point your homilies are. The anxiety was worthwhile!   01:16:19 Ambrose Little: Unless you just don't like apples.

Tonight we read Hypothesis 17 on what we build our hope upon in this life. The focus of the hypothesis, on the surface, is avarice and greed; the intensity of this passion and the insatiability of our desire for worldly goods. We are given one story after another revealing to us, however, that the real struggle is found within the heart. There is a kind of tendency within us toward idolatry or better said in the context of our relationship with God adultery. We attach ourselves to the things of this world, we love them and desire them in the fashion that we should only love God. God is the pearl of great price, the treasure hidden in the field. He who has faith and sees the value of this love should be willing to set aside all to process it. Like St Paul, we should see all as rubbish in comparison to the love of God that we receive in Christ Jesus. We are shown in the stories the subtlety of this kind of avarice even to the point of commodifying spiritual acts and deeds. We can see them as possessions arising out of the self and the desire for self-preservation rather than the love of God. We are warned that this passion can become so rooted within us that it cannot be subjugated. “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” --- Text of chat during the group: 00:25:23 Mark Kelly: A friend recently commented that Modern culture is now based on addiction.  Addicting us to many perceived needs.   00:25:48 Ashley Kaschl:

About RachelRachel Kelly is a Senior Engineer at Fastly in Infrastructure, and is a proud career-switcher over to tech as of about eight years ago. She lives in the Pacific Northwest and spends her time thinking about crafts, cycling, leadership, and ditching Google. Previously, she worked at Bright.md wrestling Ansible and Terraform into shape, and before then, a couple years at Puppet.  You can reach Rachel on twitter @wholemilk, or at hello@rkode.com.Links: Fastly: https://www.fastly.com SeaGL: https://seagl.org Twitter: https://twitter.com/wholemilk TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key or a shared admin account isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And no, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A periodic subject that comes up from folks desperate to sell people things is this idea of cloud repatriation, where people have put their entire business in the cloud decided, “Mmm, not so much. I'll build some data centers and move it there.” It's an inspiring story if you're selling things for data centers, but it's not something we're seeing widespread evidence of, and I maintain that.Today, we're going to talk about that, only completely different. My guest today is Rachel Kelly, senior infrastructure engineer at Fastly. And no, Fastly has not done a cloud repatriation of which I am aware. But Rachel, you've done a career repatriation. You went from working with AWS in your previous company to working in bare metal. First, welcome to the show, and thank you for joining me.Rachel: Thanks, Corey. Super happy to be here.Corey: Now, let's talk about why you would do such a thing. It feels almost like you're Benjamin Button-ing here.Rachel: Yeah, a bit. The normal flow has been to go from sort of a sysadmin level, where you're managing servers fairly directly, to an operational level, where you are managing entire swathes of servers to entire data centers and so forth. But I went from managing just the SaaS web app to managing enormous groups of servers in data centers all over the world. And I did that because the provisioning of the web app, even on AWS, was absolutely my favorite part. What I've always wanted to get better with is the Linux and networking side of how our internet runs, and at Fastly, we are responsible for such a huge percentage of traffic all over the world. We have enormous customers who rely on us to deliver that data. And I get to be part of the group of people that puts those enormous groups of servers into production.Corey: I started my career in the more traditional way of starting out in data centers, building things out, and then finally scampering off into a world of cloud. And you learn things going through the data center side of the world that don't necessarily command the same levels of attention in the cloud environment because you don't have to think about these things. Networking is a great example. During the Great Recession, there was a salary freeze. I was not super thrilled in my job, but I couldn't find another one, so I spent the year learning how networks worked, and it made me a better systems administrator as a direct result of this. Same story with file systems, not necessarily because I did extensive amounts of work with their innards, but because every sysadmin interview under the sun asked the same questions about how inodes work, how journaling works, et cetera, and you have to be able to pass the trivia-based hazing process in order to get a job when you've just been fired from your last one.So, that became where I was focusing on these things. And now looking at a world of cloud, feels like we don't really need that in any meaningful sense. I mean, a couple people need to know it, but by and large no one has to think about it. So, is that just a bunch of useless knowledge that is taking up valuable space in your brain that could be used for other stuff or do you think that there's a valid story for folks who are working in purely cloud environments to still learn how the things underlying these concepts work?Rachel: First of all, I think that there is so much that we can do with less particular networking knowledge than we've ever needed in the past, thanks so much in part to AWS and all of their hangers-on. But yes, there are still people who need this networking knowledge. And once you have that kind of knowledge, once you're able to see how the routes talk to each other, and how your firewalls actually work, and how to abstract out these larger networks and determining your subnetting and everything, you can utilize that really beautifully, even in something like VPC on AWS. Without that kind of knowledge, like, you can still get quite a bit done—which I think is a testament to the power of abstraction in AWS—but I mean, boy oh boy, what you can do once you have some of that knowledge.Corey: I'm not allowed in the AWS data centers because I'm very bad at dodging bullets, but I find the knowledge is still useful because it helps me reason about things. When I know what—at least in a traditional environment—it's doing, I know what AWS is emulating, and I can safely assume that I haven't discovered some bug in their network stack for almost anything reasonable that I'd be working on other than maybe their documentation explaining it. So, when I start reasoning about it from that perspective, things make a lot more sense. And that's always been helpful. The argument historically has been when you're hiring—at least in the earlier days of cloud—well, I'm trying to hire, but it's hard to find cloud talent, so the story was always, “Oh, don't worry. If you've worked in a data center, we'll teach you the cloudy pieces because it's the natural evolution of things.” And there's a whole cottage industry of people training for exactly that use case. Because you are who you are, and doing what you do, how do you find hiring works when you're going the exact opposite direction?Rachel: Oh, my gosh, it's so interesting. In my area, we are trying to build these huge groups of servers based on bare metal. Do we hire sysadmins? Maybe. Do we hire ops folks? Maybe. Do we hire network engineers? Also, maybe.There are so many angles that we need to be aware of when pulling new talent into our area. And I think it's fascinating what all of these different, largely, like, non-programmer types have to contribute to the provisioning process. We need someone with expertise in security, and quality, and networking, and file systems, and everything else between those items. And it's really exciting seeing what people can add to our process.Corey: There's so much in there that I love, but at the part I'm going to focus on is you're talking about new hires as being additive. And that is valuable. It can lead to some pretty toxic and shitty behaviors, where it's, “We want to make sure everyone we hire is schmucks we've hired now.” Like, no, that is not what we're talking about. But culture is something you get whether you want it or not, and I firmly believe teams are atomic, when you bring someone new in or let someone go, you haven't changed the team, you have a new team, in many respects, and that dynamic becomes incredibly important.The idea of hiring people for strength has always been what I look for, as opposed to absence of weakness, where it's okay, I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of questions around all the different aspects of computing; I'm going to find the area you're bad at, and we just beat the snot out of you on that. It's, yeah, if I want to join a fraternity, I would.Rachel: [laugh]. Yeah, when I was job seeking, I wound up in interviews at places where their method of interviewing was very much hazing. “Well, let's see, I haven't read your resume. It says that you've set up a few things with Nginx. Do you know about this particular command in Nginx?” It's like, “Well, geez, I could look it up and figure it out, but that's not the point of this job.”I mean, we work together collaboratively every day, and if that doesn't sound familiar to you, I'm going to leave this interview. But yes, I mean, everybody's additive. There was another gal who joined at the same time that I did at Fastly, and we both have a very operational background. And we were additive to the very strong networking and data center engineers who were already on the team. And as far as I can tell, the team changed overnight when we joined.It is now our role—both this other gal's and mine—to work so much on the automation piece of our build process, which has been focused on lightly in some areas, but that we can bring that with—even just shell scripting, we are able to enhance that process by so much. And I just fantasize about the day that we can get someone in who is directly on our team and focused on security, or directly on our team and focused on testing. The heights we could soar to with that kind of in-department knowledge, where we're still focused on creating these builds, it's just so exciting to think about.Corey: It is and it's easy to look at data centers as the way things used to be but not the future at all, but CDNs are increasingly becoming something very different than they used to be. And I admit I'm a little stodgy; I tend to fight the tide. There's value in having something that is serving static assets close to your customer. There's value to the CDN, in following the telco story, of aspiring to be more than just the quote-unquote, “Dumb pipe,” because that's a commodity; you want to add differentiated value. But I'm also leery to wind up putting things that look like business logic into the edge at this stage.And I'm starting to feel like I might be wrong as far as the way that the world views these things. But I like the idea that if a CDN takes an outage—which is not common, but it does happen—that I should be able to seamlessly—well, “Seamlessly”—failover to a different CDN within an hour or so. But if there's significant business logic in your CDN, you've got to either have that replicated in near real-time between the two providers, or your migration is now measured with a calendar instead of a stopwatch.Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's an incredibly hard problem. We want to be able to really provide that uptime. And we don't really have outages. Everybody remembers—well, listeners of this show will probably remember, the Fastly outage, but—Corey: The Fastly outage, and that's the—Rachel: The—Corey: —best part is the fact that I'm talking about ‘the' and everyone knows the one I'm talking about, that says something.Rachel: Yeah. In June of this year, we had an outage for 45 minutes, and it was just an incredible and beautiful effort on the engineering side to get us back up as quick as possible. There were a handful of naysayers, certainly, in the outage, but we fixed it real fast. One thing that I loved was your tweet about it in June, when our outage happened. “The fact that Fastly was able to detect, identify, and remediate this clearly complex problem as quickly as they did may be one of the most technically impressive things I've seen in years.” I appreciated that so much. So, many folks internal to Fastly appreciated that point of view so much because the answer to should I have a backup CDN? Like, yeah, maybe, and it is complicated because you have so much logic on the edge right there, but really, the answer is, we really do a good job of staying up. And that cannot be the full picture for any company that needs just a ton of HA, but that is what we'd really like to present, we really want you to be able to trust us. And I feel like we have demonstrated that.Corey: I would argue from where I sit you absolutely have. If this were a three times a week situation, it wouldn't matter, no one would care because no one's going to trust the CDN that breaks like that.Rachel: Right.Corey: It gets to the idea of utility computing. And that means different things to different people, but to me, what that says is that when I use an actual utility, like water or electricity, when I turn the faucet or flip a switch, I don't wonder if it's going to work or not. Of course, now I have IoT light switches, so I absolutely wonder if it's going to work or not, but going to the water story, yeah, I turn on the faucet, if something doesn't happen, or the water comes out a different color than expecting, I have immediate concerns. And that is extraordinarily atypical and I can talk about that one time it happened. It's not that every third time I go and wash my hands, the water catches fire because there's fracking nearby, or something. Or it's poisonous because I live in Flint. It is just a thing that works.No one is going to sit here and have a business problem and say, “You know what I really need? I really need a local point of presence close to my users so that the static asset can be served more quickly and efficiently to this.” No, the business problem is, “Our website is slow, so people aren't using it.” It's how do you speak to things like that? And how do you make working with it either programmatically or through a console—because surprise, business users generally don't interact with things via APIs—how do you make that straightforward? How do you make that accessible, and Fastly does—Rachel: Oh gosh.Corey: —a bang-up job on this.Rachel: I think that Fastly has done a good job on it. How that has happened, I simply cannot tell you whatsoever. I am so far from support and marketing. I know that those folks work their tails off and really are focused on selling the story of you need your assets to be more easily delivered to the people who want to consume it. No, and you would never use that as a soundbite for Fastly because it [laugh] it sounds like a robot said it.Corey: It's always—I was gonna interesting, but I'm also going to go with strange—the ability to, for whatever reason, build out a large scaling infrastructure business like this—CDNs are one of those businesses where you're not going to come up with this in your garage and a cloud provider tonight and be ready to deploy in a couple of weeks. It takes time to get these facilities out there. It takes tremendous capital investment. But I want to switch a little bit because I know that you're a believer in this in the same way that I am. As much fun as it is to talk smack about cloud providers, I think it's impossible to effectively understate just how transformative the idea of being able to prototype things via a cloud provider is.Yeah, it's not going to be all businesses, I'm not going to build a manufacturing company on a cloud provider overnight in my spare time, but I can build the bones of a SaaS app and see if it works or not without having to buy infrastructure or entering into long-term contracts. I just need a credit card and then I'll use a free tier that's going to lie to me and then hit me with a surprise $60,000 bill. But yeah, you know, the thought is there.Rachel: The thought is there. I think that if you know a little bit what you're doing with a not even terribly clever operations engineer to get into AWS with you, you can prototype that for pretty cheaply. If you're not spending all this money on transfer fees and whatever else. If you really just want this small mock up of hey, does this work? Can it be reached from the network? Again, getting your networking knowledge in will only serve you, even in this setting, even though we're in the modern era.I mean, I think it's incredible, and I think it's responsible for the total democratization of the modern internet as we know it. Yes, there are other cloud providers, but AWS is who brought this to everybody. Their support for when you run into a jam is some of the most technical and capable of any support organization I've ever interfaced with. And at my previous role we did all the time because, you know, the internet gets complicated, if you can imagine that. And I just think that's phenomenal.On AWS, I want something where I'm hooking up some VPC to this Redis Database over here to a few EC2 instances with backups going over here, and some extremely restricted amount of dummy data flowing from all of those objects. And there's nothing like that. [laugh].Corey: Oh, yeah. And part of the reason behind this, as it turns out, is architectural. The billing system aspires to an eight-hour consistency model, in which case, I spin up something and it shows up in the bill eight hours later. In practice, this can take multiple days. But it's never going to get fixed until the business decides, all right, you can set up a free tier account with the following limits on it, and to get past these, you have to affirmatively upgrade your account so we can start charging you and we automatically going turn things off or let you stop adding storage to it or whatnot, whenever you cross these limits.Well today, you can do whatever you want for the first eight hours. And the way to fix this is, cool, Amazon eats it. Whenever their billing system doesn't catch something, they eat the free tier. And given how much they love money, and trimming margins, and the rest, suddenly you have an incentive because if someone screws up royally and gets that $60,000 bill before the billing system can clamp down on it, okay, great. I would rather the $1.6 trillion company eat that bill than the poor schmoo sitting in their dorm room halfway around the world.Rachel: That's such a good point. Some schmo in their dorm room. How many kids have been bitten by this that we don't hear about because people become ashamed of “Stupid mistakes” like that—that was big air quotes, for those of you at home. It's not a stupid mistake.Corey: People think I'm kidding when I say this, but Robinhood had a tragic story, right? A 19-year-old was day-trading, saw on the app that he had lost $900,000—which turned out not to be true once things settled—and killed himself. And that is tragic. It is not a question of if, it's a question of when someone sees this, reads that you're on the hook for it, support takes a few days to respond, they see their life flashing before their eyes because in many cases, that is more money than people in some of these places will expect to earn in a year, and does something horribly tragic. And at that point, there's a bell that has been rung that cannot be unrung.Of all the things I want to fix, yeah, I complain and I whine about an awful lot of stuff, but this is the one that has the most tragic consequences. No story for a human is going to end in tragedy because of the usurious pricing for Managed NAT Gateway data transfer, but a surprise bill that we know support is going to wipe over something like that, that is going to break people. And that's not okay.Rachel: No, it's not okay. I think that you write very well about that topic in particular, and I really would love to see some changes take place. I know that Amazon knows their business better than to need to rely on some Adore Me-style subscription model that you can't figure out how to get out of. Like, have some faith in your products or don't sell it.Corey: I really, really wish that more companies saw it that way. And the hell of it is the best shining example is a recurring sponsor of this show: Oracle Cloud. Oracle is, let's be honest, they're Oracle; that's less a brand than a warning label in many cases, but I've often said the Oracle Cloud biggest challenge is the word Oracle at the front of it—Rachel: Absolutely.Corey: —because their service offering is legitimate, their free tier is actually free—I've been running some fairly beefy stuff there for over a year, and have never been charged a dime for it. And it's not because I'm special; it's because I haven't taken the affirmative upgrade-my-account step. And their data transfer pricing is great. Within the confines of those things, yeah, it's terrific. I can't speak to what it looks like a super large-scale for a cloud-native app, yet, but that's going to change; people are starting to take them a lot more seriously.And I've got to say, in previous years in the re:Invent keynotes, they've made fun and kicked at Oracle a fair bit, which no one has any sympathy for. Now, I don't think that would lend the same way, just among people who have decided to suspend disbelief long enough and kick the tires in the Oracle free tier. It's like, well, yeah, you can say a lot of negative things about Oracle—and I have a list of them—but you know, what I never got with Oracle: A surprise bill. And its Oracle we're talking about, where surprise billing is the entire reason that they—Rachel: It's the model.Corey: —are a company.Rachel: Yeah. [laugh].Corey: That is the model. And in this case, they are nailing it. And I've often said that you can buy my attention, but not my opinion. Long before they sponsored this show, I was talking, like, this about this particular offering. “Oh, so you're saying we should migrate everything to Oracle databases?” “Good, Lord, no. Not without talking with someone who's been down that path.” And almost everyone who has will scream at you about it. It's a separate model. It's a separate division. It's a separate way of thinking about things. And I'm a big fan of that.Rachel: Oh, that's great. There have been ruinous results of Oracle's decisions and acquisitions in our industry, and yet, this does appear to be a slice of the market that they have given autonomy to the people running it. And I feel like that's really the key. I know just a hair about the product process—the new product introduction process at Amazon in general, And therefore, I actually do have a bit of faith that they will fix this. It's just a huge problem, and when Oracle is eating your lunch, I mean, I just—you really have some things to reconsider.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Rising Cloud, which I hadn't heard of before, but they're doing something vaguely interesting here. They are using AI, which is usually where my eyes glaze over and I lose attention, but they're using it to help developers be more efficient by reducing repetitive tasks. So, the idea being that you can run stateless things without having to worry about scaling, placement, et cetera, and the rest. They claim significant cost savings, and they're able to wind up taking what you're running as it is, in AWS, with no changes, and run it inside of their data centers that span multiple regions. I'm somewhat skeptical, but their customers seem to really like them, so that's one of those areas where I really have a hard time being too snarky about it because when you solve a customer's problem, and they get out there in public and say, “We're solving a problem,” it's very hard to snark about that. Multus Medical, Construx.ai, and Stax have seen significant results by using them, and it's worth exploring. So, if you're looking for a smarter, faster, cheaper alternative to EC2, Lambda, or batch, consider checking them out. Visit risingcloud.com/benefits. That's risingcloud.com/benefits, and be sure to tell them that I said you because watching people wince when you mention my name is one of the guilty pleasures of listening to this podcast.Corey: I am an Amazon fan. I think that given the talent, and the insight, and the drive that they have there—not to mention the fact that they're a $1.6 trillion company—if they want to do something, it will get done. And there are very few bounds I would put on it. Which means that everything that Amazon does, is, on some level, a choice. There are very few things they could not achieve with concerted effort if they cared enough.Corey: I want to also tell a story about you for a change, because why not? Back in 2018, I was just really getting to have an audience, and the rest, and I found myself at the replay party at re:Invent. And it was a weird moment for me because I'd finished most of my speaking stuff, I had hung out with my meetups and my friends and the rest, and I'm wandering around the party—Rachel: Your DevOps stand-up, as I recall.Corey: That's what it w—that's what it was. Yeah, my DevOps stand-up, cloud comedy, whatever you want to call it. And I'm walking around, and it's isolating and weird after something like that—back in the before times, at least—and when people know me as a character, more or less, but not as a person, and it's isolating, and it's lonely, and it's—again, you don't feel great after four days in Las Vegas, and it's dark, and it's hard to tell who's who we ran into each other and just started walking around and having a conversation outside because apparently 4000 decibels as a little much for volume for both of us. And it was just great finding someone who I can talk to as a human being. There's not enough of that in different ways. Because remember, back then, I was an independent consultant I didn't have colleagues to hang out with. It was—Rachel: Oh, that was pre-Duckbill.Corey: That was when I was still the Quinn Advisory Group.Rachel: Oh, very good. Okay. Yes, I do remember that.Corey: The Duckbill Group was formed about a month-and-a-half after that as memory serves.Rachel: Oh, okay. Cool.Corey: But yeah, same problem. It's, how do I build this? How do I turn this into something was a separate problem that hadn't quite—hadn't come up with an answer yet. So, I'm an independent consultant, wandering around, feeling lonely. My clients are all off doing their own things because it turns out that I'm great at representing clients in meetings with Amazon execs, but lousy at representing them on the dance floor.So, it was just the empathy that exuded from you was just phenomenal. And I don't know ever thank you for just how refreshing it was to be able to just step back from the show for a minute and be a person. So thanks.Rachel: Oh, likewise. I remember I had gotten in touch with you beforehand as well to say, like, “I'm going to be at re:Invent. I don't know any women who will be there. Can you please introduce me to some?” And you introduce me to some lovely people who, along with you, really helped me navigate my first re:Invent in a huge way, which was—you think it's going to be overwhelming, multiply that by ten or a hundred. That is how much information is coming at you all the time when you are at re:Invent.So, to go to this funny party where there was like some EDM DJ, who I think was, like, well-known or something in 2018, be like, [laugh] that's really not my thing. But I want to bum around this party, I do want to see what's going on, and if I can touch base with anybody else that I have met during this conference. And I remember we, kind of like, stuck close to each other. And that was so—that was, it was so human. And I appreciated that so much from you as well.I was sent by my company—as anybody who goes to [OSCON 00:31:03] or re:Invent are, if they pay full freight [laugh]—it was so lovely to just have a buddy to bum around with and make fun of things, and talk shop, and everything in between.Corey: I do want to give one small tip, something buried in there that I think is just something I've been doing extensively for a while, but I haven't really ever called it out, or at least not recently—and I'll do a tweet thread about this after we're done recording—the counterpoint that I want to that I want to point out is that introductions are great, but every person I introduced you to, I had your permission to give their email address to them, and I reached out to them independently in every case and said, “Hey, someone would like”—once I was had your permission to reference you—“She would like to talk to other folks who don't look like me who are going to re:Invent. May I introduce you?” The idea of a double opt-in introduction goes so far. And I'm talking about this for folks who aren't me. In my case, fine. If some rando wants to introduce me to some other rando, knock yourself out. There is very little showing up in my inbox that I am not going to have some way of handling. But not everyone thinks about things that way, and it just shows a baseline level of human respect.Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. I actually just did that this morning. I'm sure all of us get these calls a few times a year: “I'm thinking about switching to tech because the money's there, the stability is there, the job market is there, and I have been underpaid and treated poorly for a long time,” or whatever variation on that story that I know we all are aware of. And I talked with him for a while last night, and then I put him in touch with the dual opt-in emails with someone in the field that he's looking at, exactly, and a recruiter friend of mine to help give more perspective on the industry as a whole. And with both of those people, I asked permission to introduce them to the friend of mine who had reached out to me, and both of them responded right away because when you are fielding questions like these all day, you become familiar with the kindest way to do that.And I really love being able to use my network in that way. Yes, I know a person at X, and yes, I would love to introduce you to Y. And I will make sure that everybody agrees and knows that this is coming, and I'm not just taken by surprise. Where I do get those emails and I understand that etiquette is something to learn, it isn't directly common-sense sometimes. And then you sit down and you think about it, or someone says to you like, “I really need you to give me a heads up before giving my contact information to someone that I don't know.”Corey: It happens. It's about being accessible. It's about making the industry better than it is. And on that topic, I have one more area I want to delve into before we call it a show, and that is you are on the program committee for SeaGL, the Seattle GNU/Linux conference.Rachel: That's right.Corey: I have fond memories of that conference, once upon a time. I gave a keynote a few years ago back when I was, you know, able to go places without it being a deadly risk, and much more involved in the community side of the world when it comes to conferences. I've unfortunately pulled back from a lot of it, just due to demands on my time. But great conference. Enjoyed a lot of the conversations once you, sort of, steered around the true believers around some areas of things, to the point where it subverts, you know, being civil to people. But it was a good conference. There was a lot to recommend it.Rachel: SeaGL is a beautiful little conference. It is community-focused. We don't let sponsors get on stage. We really restrict how much the people giving us money are able to dictate what we do. What we do is create a platform for people to discuss open-source in a human way, I would say.I think in our earlier days, we had a lot of focus on software freedom at all costs, and that has softened in the name of humans and social justice in a way that I feel very proud of. I have been the program chair for three years now, and it's just wonderful seeing the trends that come up every year. Our conference is Friday and Saturday, November 5th and 6th, so I hope that by the time you hear this, you will still have an opportunity to go to that; I'm not sure. Some of the themes this year have just been so interesting. It's all about—and this will be very interesting to a particular subset of people, and maybe not to everybody—but about open-source governance, and how do we maintain the soul and the purpose of an open-source project, while keeping people housed and fed who are working on these things, and to not sign over all the rights of a given project to our corporate overlords and such.So, there's a number of talks that are going to be talking about that. A few years ago, the trend that I was really excited about that I personally gave a talk about as well, is how to start owning and managing your own data entirely. I gave a talk on trying to get off Google, which is Herculean and close to impossible. And I understand that, and that's frustrating. But you know, we see these trends where we're trying to help our community protect itself and remain open at the same time in a technical and open-source context. And it's just an exciting and lovely organization and event each year. This is our second year being virtual. I was shocked by how good our virtual experience was last year. And I have high hopes for this year, too. So, I hope you can come check it out.Corey: I would highly recommend it though I believe this will be airing after the show goes out.Rachel: Ah darn.Corey: But there's always next year.Rachel: That's right. And they're all recorded as well, all the talks will be recorded. The publication date on those might be a little bit after but yes, they will all be up.Corey: But we will of course include links to that in the [show notes 00:37:13] because there's always next year.Rachel: That's right.Corey: I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Rachel: I think probably the best place is on Twitter. That is @wholemilk on Twitter. Like, the dairy product by the gallon that's me.Corey: And that link to that will go in the [show notes 00:37:33] as well. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Rachel: Thank you, Corey. This has been great.Corey: It really has. Rachel Kelly, senior infrastructure engineer at Fastly. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment telling me that you should absolutely shove your business logic fully into the CDN, then wind up not being able to edit the comment because it's locked to a single CDN.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Tonight in our reading of The Evergetinos we concluded Hypothesis 15 and read the entirety of Hypothesis 16. Both have a similar focus: our natural loves and affections for others or the things of this world are to be set aside for the love of God in the kingdom. We must acknowledge that all things begin and end with God and all things come to us from His hand. Simply put - all is grace and our acknowledgment of this truth should give us a kind of freedom to set aside or worldly attachments be they bad or good. Once again, we are presented with multiple illustrative stories that challenge our sensibilities. We see individuals who heroically struggle to let go of worldly ties, not because they are evil but in order to be able to embrace not just the greater good but that which is eternal. Even that which is good, even our virtues must be perfected by the grace of God. In many different ways we can be willful; we can choose paths, even those that are religious in nature, because they appeal to her sensibilities rather than being clearly something that God demands. We must let go of the illusion that we are the source of life and salvation. It is a particularly modern notion of creating a better world or acting to bring about societal change as the object of the deepest aspiration of a person's life. All that we read from the lives of the Saints shows that they see things through the lens of God's revelation of Himself to us in His Son.  Our dignity and destiny as human beings is found in Christ and it is Him that we must seek and devote ourselves to completely. It is only when all things are subordinated to Him that we come to see our lives and others with a kind of clarity. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:09:01 Rachel: Oh darn, Im too late! lol   00:11:41 Daniel Allen: Where are we at?   00:11:58 Carol Nypaver: 123   00:16:59 Anthony: This may be the movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhKorITYvDU   00:44:03 Rachel: I LOVE that story! Because I am a twin, so I understand very much!   00:45:02 Rachel: Wait, weren't they twin brother and sister? I could be wrong...   00:45:33 renwitter: Yes :-)   00:52:38 Anthony: This story also indicates that the monastics were not completely cut of from their families....St. Ioannikos had to have known of his brother-in-law's rage for him to pray for his brother-in-law.   00:54:34 Rachel: :)   01:00:07 jack: Their human dignity   01:01:30 Rachel: Please share the talk by Kallistos Ware!

The Confident Woman Podcast received the podcast award for Best Society and Culture in our community at the Columbus Podcast Awards! Rachel and Erin are so excited, humbled, grateful, and completely honored to be recognized for such an incredible achievement. The girls are so thankful for their community, their listeners, and all their guests. Truly, none of it would be possible without the continuous love and support from The Confident Woman community and the real and honest feedback that listeners provide for every episode. The girls talk more about: + The “pinch me” moment when The Confident Woman Podcast was named winner + How fulfilling and gratifying it is to be a globally ranked and award winning podcast + How grateful they feel to be building such a wonderful community of confident women and to be doing it together Resources: Erin's Instagram: @the.erin.klein.show Rachel's Instagram: @iamrachelbrooks The Confident Woman Podcast Instagram: @theconfidentwomanpodcast The Confident Woman Collective: https://www.theconfidentwomancollective.com Quotes: “This is what podcasting is about. Bringing value, bringing hope, bringing inspiration, and of course, keeping it real, raw, and relatable because that's what women need more of these days.” - Rachel “It's always fun to take all of your hard work and take a moment and celebrate.” - Erin “I'd never seen Rachel do kind of like an Elaine dance from Seinfeld. Kind of like a hands up in the air, like high knee shuffle, and a lot of whoo'ing.” - Erin “When you pour your blood, sweat, and tears into something, you want it to take off. You want it to be successful. You want to know that it's making an impact. And that was just the cherry on top. Like, holy crap, not only are we doing this but we are doing it here in our community and that was impactful.” - Rachel --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theconfidentwoman/message

Females In Business with Rachel Edlich In this episode, Rachel Edlich shares how she started as an entrepreneur, the influence her father had on her success today, her partnership with her sister, how she learned to be a successful product creator and marketer and so much more. Radical Skincare, the business she co-founded with her sister Liz Edlich, is a powerhouse skincare line that can be found in over 900 retail stores and in more than 17 countries. They also have a Brand Partner program that is empowering mostly women and some men, to be successful entrepreneurs in their own right. This was an enjoyable conversation with Rachel and I look forward to interviewing her again down the road at their next successful milestone. Also, check out their book "Get Radical: Secrets to Living a Life You Love": https://amzn.to/3jkyoFD As always, thanks so much for listening! Joe Rachel Edlich Co-founder - Radical Skincare Website: https://radicalskincare.com Discount Code: Costello10 Their Book "Get Radical: Secrets to Living a Life You Love" Our affiliate link: https://amzn.to/3jkyoFD Instagram: @radicalskincare Facebook: @RadicalSkincare YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/radicalskincare Twitter:@radicalskincare LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/radical-skincare Email: customercare@radicalskincare.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Rachel, welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you. I thought I might also see this, but I guess Liz is not going to be here with us. So you're going to have to answer all the questions that I have. Rachel: That's great. I'm ready. I'm Joe: Ok, Rachel: Ready. Joe: Ok, OK. First off, the company's name is Radical Skincare. Is that correct? Rachel: That's right. Joe: Ok, this is really cool because I don't have a lot of women on the show as much as I would like to have more women, because I think there's a big separation in the amount of exposure to women that are running, businesses that are successful. So, first of all, thank you so much for coming on the show. Rachel: It's my pleasure, thank you so much for having me here. Joe: Yeah. Awesome. OK, so I always like to get a back story from my guests because I think it's really important that a lot of times podcast will just kick off and people either know the guest that they don't and they'll do a little reading on them and not saying me as the host, but people that might listen to it don't know who someone is. But more importantly, I think how you got to where you are today stems from all that happened before at this point. And I think so much of that is missed on a lot of podcasts. People all of a sudden they just start talking about what they're doing today. And the newest book that they have out and all this other stuff. So if you don't mind, I would love for you to give a little bit of history and you can go back as far as you want. I've had people go back to kindergarten, so I don't care. And and since Liz isn't here, you can also, if you want, put in a little bit about that whole, you know, how it happened with her and you and the connection of all of it. So now I will be quiet and let you click. Rachel: Ok, no problem, while I was going to say how much time do we have? Joe: Yes. Rachel: It's like if I go back to kindergarten. Yeah. So, you know, so for for us, we were raised in Virginia on an 18 acre farm, and our father was a very well known worldwide reconstructive surgeon who specialized in wound healing and skin rejuvenation. And he started the burn unit at University of Virginia. He invented stere strips. He invented dissolvable sutures. So, you know, his commitment was really to science and changing the world like that was my dad and my mom was a bit different. She was an actress on Broadway. She was in West Side Story. But, you know, she basically was just God kissed her and said, you will sing. And so she was in West Side Story, but then decided, hey, I'm going to I'm going to have kids. And then she met my dad. So we were really bookended by two very interesting people. And it was my sister, my brother and I. And growing up on a farm surrounded by my father's brilliance. And we were pretty much we'd go to the hospital with him, work in the lab. We did research with him if there was ever a problem. My dad was like, we'll invent it. See, my brother, my brother broke his clavicle and he's like, we're inventing the shoulder of the perfect shoulder pads. We did. Rachel: I've done I don't know how many research papers on lacrosse injuries because I was a lacrosse player or whatever. So it was like, you know, we we really were raised in that environment all the time. And we got a very, very strong work ethic, because imagine we were basically the ones running a farm as well. So from that, you know, I ended up wanting to really follow being able to help other people. I thought, gosh, I think I might become a therapist, that, you know, that's what I'm going to go and I'm going to I'm good at communicating with other people. I think I read situations really well. So I went to college. My sister went to we all went to actually we all went to the same college. And I got a counseling degree. And then I was like, OK, well, you know, if I really want to sit in a room all day and go through that process. So I ended up running a Boys and girls club for like 800 children. And I love working with kids and developing programs and drug prevention programs and all the different things that the Boys and Girls Club provided. But at the same time, I love to be able to give back that way. I also wanted to make money. Joe: This is. Rachel: I'm like, OK, you know, I love working with children and, you know, especially where a lot of them were in really tough situations. But I said I could do that as my volunteer time. So my sister was living in L.A. and we were always super close. And she's like, well, just come move out here. And it's like, I can't move without a job. You know, it's like having all these reasons why I can't. And I was like, you know what? I'm doing it. I was like, Liz, I can't come without a job. And she's like, well, you know, I just raised money for a company. She was in money management and venture capital, and she was like, and they actually need someone and to run their customer service department. And I was like, I can do that. So, you know, you're young. You Joe: Right. Rachel: Can make me make these big moves. So I packed up my dog in my house and I moved out to L.A. and Liz and I started working together and deciding we were going to start a company. Really wanted to always at the core of us is like it has to be driven with purpose. We have to have like we always need that passion. We're very entrepreneurial because we just can't help ourselves. It's like that's just our nature. So we got into the skincare business and in 1999 and doing, you know, product development, a lot of research, science, of course, you know, coming from a science background with my father, that was that like completely made sense to us. So we started creating products for celebrities, for retailers or QVC, Aitchison, a lot of brand development. So that was kind of our entree into working together. And I know everyone's like the big question is, how do you work with your sister? Joe: It's right, it's tough. Rachel: Everyone's like, how do you guys do it? And we're super blessed. I know we're rare. We're like or like a rare breed, but we're both different in our strengths. So we are able to really complement. Each other and I think there's the bond of our family and that we look after each other. And I mean, that's been probably one of the most special things about our relationship and being in business together, kind of coming into how Radical happened was we were doing our business. We were like at one hundred and fifty million dollars and sales. I mean, we were doing amazing, loving what we were doing. And then I had my second child and I developed rosacea. So, you know, life throws in like little things to move things around, make you start thinking. And I was like, wow, you know, I've always had good skin and my skin was red, splotchy, irritated. I tried putting makeup on. It made it worse. It was the first time where I had actually had this level of insecurity. Like I'd walk into a room and it's like my face walked in first and people I'm like, are they looking at me? Oh, my gosh. They can tell. And, you know, it's like this weird thing that you go through when you're when you're experiencing how you look on the outside matter so much. So you have to like say, OK, it's how you feel on the inside. It's a this is an inside job. You know, work life is not perfect. We don't we're not going to always look perfect. Right. Joe: Mm hmm. Rachel: So, you know, how we feel on the inside is felt by the world. And I went to the dermatologist. They basically said, you'll be on medication for the rest of your life. I'm like, are you joking about it? This is like a little quick fix. You know, you're going to Joe: Right. Rachel: Give me some cream and it's going to be gone and then I'm done. Poof, right. And they're like, no. I was like, oh, great. So I ended up trying on everything they gave me. And my skin was always more inflamed, burning. It was on fire. My face was on fire. And my sister, she's six years older. And since she's not with us, I can always like make her the older sister. Joe: Yes. Rachel: But she Joe: Yeah. Rachel: Is. Joe: There we go, I knew this was going to start sooner Rachel: Yeah, Joe: Or later. Rachel: Exactly. That's what happens when we're not together Joe: That's right. Rachel: On the Joe: That's Rachel: Podcast. Joe: What she gets for not being here. Rachel: Right. Joe: Right. Rachel: Right. So I'll make sure she listens to this. So she's like, Rachel, I'm older than you. It's going to be happening to you, too, but I'm looking in the mirror and gravity is really, truly real. Like this stuff is happening. My skin is just now bouncing back the way I used to, that I wanted it to. And I said, OK, Liz. Well, I guess this is the perfect storm. This is like between the two of us. And I said we have to create the strongest skin care for antiaging, but design for sensitive skin. So thank goodness we had the brilliance of my father and his ability for science and research. And then we got together with a team of chemists and we basically said we are going to put the best of the best in the bottle. We had no intentions of selling it. It wasn't like, oh, we need to be in another skin care business. Not at all. We were like, put the best of the best in the bottle. We didn't care about the cost. We weren't worried about the margins. We weren't worried. We're just like, let's just fix our face. So we got with the scientist, we really started to look at some of the leading reasons for aging skin coming up with solutions for that and coming up with a technology which was our TRALA cell technology, where we're able to deliver all the powerful ingredients to the skin without irritation. Rachel: And after my skin, after just three weeks, my skin completely transformed. I was able to get off all my medication. I'm telling you, it was like adversity brought complete opportunity for us in that moment. And my sister, people were noticing her skin changing. We gave it to friends and family and like little bottles that were like serum moisturizer, you know, it's like in the back of the lab, we're like, okay, here you go. You got a tray. And and people were like calling us like, what is this stuff? So listen, I looked at each other and we said, you know, that's pretty radical. And that's kind of where Radical was born. And we said, you know, our dad always said, if you have an asset sitting on the shelf that no one else knows about, it's not OK. You have to share with the world because there's other people going through what you're going through. You're not in this little world of just Rachel and rosacea. There's millions of people out there that are struggling with rosacea or problematic skin or sensitive skin. And the more research we did, it was like 80 percent of women believe they have sensitive skin. And so they're very particular about what they're putting on their skin and the irritation. So we really took a lot of time and developing our products to make sure they were consciously clean, that we were delivering radical results. Rachel: So we had science behind it. You know, we did clinical on our products because we like to prove out whatever we're going to say. We want to be there with confidence. So we launched in 17 different countries, in over 900 stores and just two years. And Liz and I hit the road and started to work with all the prestige retailers and training. And the interesting thing that we found is this yearning and hunger from all the associates and customers that we talked to about that feeling of were inner self meets. Outer beauty, which is so important to us, is, you know, how we feel on the inside is felt by the world. And we've been really blessed with working with Bob Proctor, who was very close to us and a lot of personal development work where we knew that there was a method to really getting amazing skincare science, to getting radical results. But also there is a technology for creating a life you love. And so we ended up really looking at that closely and listening to people really wanting more there or there are hungry for more purpose and passion in their lives. So that was like our aha moment. And we said when we came back to the states, we're a global so we have a global footprint where in Australia, Switzerland, the UK, all over the place. But in the US, we decided that we were going to buy our products back off of the shelf. Rachel: We we wrote our book, which is "Get Radical: Create Secrets to Creating a Life You Love." And then we said, we're going to buy all of our products back off the retail shelves, take the profit that we normally give to the retailers. Take our science. Take all of our from clinical to all the press that we've gotten over the 11 years and the investment of 20 million dollars into our brand and give that as a turnkey opportunity for others to be able to create passion, purpose, health and wealth. And that's when our brand partner program was born. And we did that. That was kind of like born out of. Covid and a lot of it and and that's just caught on fire because we have the selfcare element, that purpose element. We're a movement that matters. And we always know that if we stay close to our purpose and our passion, Liz and I, we've had moments, we've gotten off track where you're not waking up feeling passionate or purpose driven. Then it's like, OK, OK, I'm going to go do that today. And that was important to us. We wanted to we want to touch millions of people's lives. And we know through our brand partner program, we can touch more people than through any retail store ever. So that's kind of our journey to where we are today. Joe: Well, there's a lot to unpack here, Rachel: I know. Joe: Because any time you can correct me, but I would I would say that this is going to be a unique episode, because for the listeners are out there that are women. This will speak to them more than it will. Guys, I don't even know if you have any men in the brand partner program. Rachel: We do, actually, Joe: Ok, Rachel: We Joe: So Rachel: Do. Joe: See, that's why I wanted to ask you. Rachel: But Joe: Ok. Rachel: It's the majority, a majority of them are women. Yeah. Joe: Ok. And then the products that you have, are they mostly all women? Are there some men? And that's why you have a couple of men and the brand ambassador Rachel: Our Joe: For that. Rachel: Our brand is very unisex Joe: Ok. Rachel: From our packaging all the way through, it delivers amazing results. We do a lot of coaching, even with a lot of the women that are like, oh, what do we offer to the man? And it's like these core products that men just absolutely love. Like we were in Barneys, we were in the men's department there when we launched, and because we did so well and with the men as well. Joe: Ok, so here's the part where we're going to rewind, because Rachel: Ak. Joe: This is this is how I think your story and there's this story and this product and how you did all of this will really help the listeners and especially the women listeners. So you came from a background that was science based because of your father. It sounds like a brilliant man. Is he still with us or is Rachel: No. Joe: Not OK? Rachel: Yeah, my father had multiple sclerosis on top of everything else Joe: Yeah, Rachel: And Joe: I saw that, and Rachel: Yeah. Joe: So I was I was so I didn't know if he was still around, but Rachel: Would Joe: When Rachel: You Joe: You Rachel: Have. Joe: Started this process of wanting to do this with your sister, was he around to help with the initial part of it? Rachel: Yes, Joe: Ok. Rachel: My my dad basically, when I moved to or before I moved to L.A., was saying to my sister, you two need to work together. Like he he's like family. You need to work together. Joe: Right. Well, that's awesome. Okay, cool. So I'm going to put a pin in that one piece of it because I have to come back to that again, because there's more questions than if I Rachel: Sure. Joe: Was listening. I would be like, OK, there's one thing that was a plus for the both of you. Rachel: For sure. Joe: So I'll get to it. I'll explain where I'm going. And I'm sure you Rachel: Ok. Joe: Already understand. Your sister was a stockbroker, an investment banker, a stockbroker, whatever. She she took that route. And then I noticed that there was a company called One World Live. Is that Rachel: Mm Joe: Correct? Rachel: Hmm. That's Joe: Ok, Rachel: Right. Joe: So this is the company that she ended up creating, purchasing, investing, one of those. Right. Rachel: Well, it was actually a company prior to that that she invested money in, and I came out and I worked for that particular company. Joe: Ok. Rachel: But One World Life we created together, and that was really driven from product to we had a lot of celebrities with where we would do merchandising for them with their product. Yeah. So that was where we really got into product development, like the the whole process of making products, whether it was weight loss, whether it was jewelry, whether it was skincare. And that's where we actually had our first experience with skincare at that time. Joe: Ok, so if I was sitting and listening to this, I'd be like, OK, how do two women that are not in this world make this jump into this competitive marketing product delivery business? People usually have some sort of experience that they initially get in that and then they go, hey, I can do this, and then they go out on their own and start it. So explain to me how your system leaves doing the investment banking piece of this. You leave what you're doing and you move out and all of a sudden you're this powerhouse marketing team Rachel: Right. Joe: That has this company. And there's a there's a gap there that I want you to Rachel: Got Joe: Fill Rachel: It. Joe: Forms. Rachel: Ok, so my sister raised money for a company that had a weight loss product. That was the company that I started working for. And I started to learn about infomercials, commercials, direct mail catalog. That was kind of where I first learned like, oh, who was right when infomercials hit in 94, it was like all of a sudden it's like, what's this infomercial thing? And so we. Joe: But wait, there's more. Rachel: Yes, exactly. Hey, you know exactly what I'm talking about, Joe: Yeah. Rachel: And I'm so yeah, so we. I worked for that company and unfortunately the people that were running the company were not doing the right things with the finances. So I told my sister, hey, heads up, my check is bouncing. She's she has investors in the company. So she ended up having to go in and basically take over the company. And that's called like you're just thrown into the waters. You have no idea what you're doing. And it was crazy. She had to sue the company, a lot of the players, and she won, which was unbelievable and won the company. So then we all of a sudden inherited a weight loss company that was doing really, really well. But, you know, we didn't have a lot of experience at the time. So it was something that I do primarily and anything like all my businesses. If I don't know something, I get really smart really quick. And I talk to a lot of people that know a lot more than me. And so like no one Joe: Right. Rachel: Will find someone that knows more than you. Joe: Yeah. Rachel: And so that's what we did. And we worked with different individuals and started to understand the business more and how media spin worked. And I had to manage the media spend and I had to managed print campaigns and I had to buy inventory for all these products. I was like, buy what I like. All right, let's let's break open a spreadsheet and start getting organized. That was point one. But I actually realize I have a I'm super strong at doing those type of like I can operationally managing and dealing with a lot of moving parts and seeing how all the pieces fit together. So, listen, I basically kind of divided and conquered with that particular product. And then we did another weight loss product where we had investors involved in that. And then that launched. And then Liz decided that she was going to go back more into the investment banking. So I took the weight loss product and I went to another company and brought our product with us and had their infrastructure supports our product. But also, it was a great opportunity for me to learn side by side with other people that have been doing it for a long time. So it was for me like that part where we I worked with another company necessarily wasn't necessarily like my happiest time, to be really honest, because a little more entrepreneurial and. But I did that for two years and I was like, I'm going to get so good at all of this. I'm going to be so good. Like I'm going to just be a sponge. Rachel: I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn until I feel like I got my arms around this, all these tentacles that were flying around me and feeling proficient in that. And that was a really graceful time of firsts. Sometimes you're feeling and that feeling of uncertainty. And I'm sure everyone up there is gone through that feeling like lack of confidence, whatever it might be in that certain area. But again, I felt like one of the things that Liz and I had done is we surround ourselves with people that are mentors that can help teach and guide and trust me, you're going to pay it forward because there will be a time when someone's going to work for you that you can teach and you can guide. And so from that, I was Liz was doing her thing. So she started is a big thinker, a lot of creative ideas. And she she she and this other person decided we're going to start this company. And she called me up and she's like, rich, like, I can't do it without you. Like I need you. You know how to get it all done. You know, I had to make it all. I'll put all the wheels on the bus and make it go forward. And, you know, you've been in the business. And I actually haven't been in that part of the business. But we're going to kind of do that business again in a different way. And I was like, let's do it in our. So that's how one world was actually created. And. Joe: And what year was that? Rachel: That was in 19, I think it was 1999 is when one world was was created. I Joe: And Rachel: Actually. Joe: When did you when did you move out to L.A. from Virginia? Rachel: 94. Joe: Ok, so five years later is when Rachel: Yes. Joe: This happened, OK, Rachel: Yep. Joe: So you've had all that time. Rachel: Exactly. To Joe: It. OK. Rachel: Learn fast. Joe: Yeah. Have. Rachel: It was like a fire hose experience, like, OK, open Rachel, Joe: Yeah. Rachel: Insert all information. Yeah. So from there, that's when one world leader was born. And we did that for we still have that company. We still have a product line that we have on QVC. And so we had a. And we really had it was the that company was going to we were looking at it as a public, the public traded opportunity to do an IPO. And it was when the technology just fell, fell apart. And we ended up having to really pivot fast because a lot of money was raised for the company. And at that point, we had we had probably almost a hundred employees. We had a lot of VC and investors. And Liz, that was primarily her responsibility to deal with them. But at that point, they just weren't investing. And unless you were a true technology, you know, like you're an app or you're, you know, so we ended up really bringing back through our direct marketing, our direct response. We had we did infomercials the whole time. So we had a lot of things going on. And that's really when we got into the skincare business, it was an infomercial of skincare. And then I developed the whole line, which had about say about 30 skews. So I did all the product development, all the research, creative and just learned, learned a lot about science, working with manufacturers, working with the chemists. Of course, we were fortunate enough with our dad for hours. But the chemists, we started to really learn about product development ingredients, raw materials, clean, clean beauty. And that kind of took us on our journey to Radical. Joe: Ok, so here we go Rachel: Ok. Joe: Is I have to ask because it's I know that even if I was listening to this and I just reframed it to be something that a guy would do, I have ideas all the time. But we stop ourselves because of things that we think are going to be roadblocks. So my first question is, let's talk about your father and the science and all of that without that piece. Some of the audience listeners might be saying to themselves, well, that's that's a huge chunk like that help having that experience, having your father to lean on, having that around you, to be able to start the process of creating products. Because if you start thinking about it, it's like, OK, I'm not going to go in my kitchen and start putting all sorts of things in a little bowl and seeing it smells nice and it works nice and right. So Rachel: Right. Joe: What would you say to any of the women listening? They don't have that science background. They don't have that father with that Rachel: Mm Joe: Brain Rachel: Hmm. Joe: And that intelligence Rachel: Right. Joe: And background. BILLINA. Can they still accomplish this? Rachel: Absolutely. So, yes, we were very blessed, and we we understand that so much. But we also know, like when we were developing products for One World Lives, I was in product development all the time. But I lean on my manufacturers. I wasn't calling my dad saying, hey, dad, like what do you think about this? Because it wasn't personal then. It was just like, oh, I'm creating products for a client and this is what they want. Some of the benefits to be or I look at like what the story is like, what is it that they're trying to say about, you know, themselves and their skincare brand. So it makes like it's makes sense. And then I talk to my manufacturer, who has chemists on staff, and I go and I sit with them and I talk to raw material houses. There's shows that you can go to that have all the raw material houses that go there that are talking about a unique ingredients that they're using. But I find a lot I get a lot from the chemists that are from the manufacturers about what's new, what's hot, what's working, what's an alternative to like we have right now that we just launched are an alternative to a retinol cream, which outperforms retinol without all the side effects. I went I researched, I talked to my chemist. What's what is out there right now? It took us it's not an overnight experience, like, oh, poof, we we just developed a product because then you want to prove the results, right? So you want to have some science. So you have confidence that if you're saying any kind of a claim, that you can substantiate that. So the process for Radical, it was with our dad, but that was like the beginning of the ideas and the science footprint. But I leaned heavily on all of the chemists to really help direct and come up with formulations that we know were going to give radical results. Joe: Ok, great, so I appreciate that answer. Rachel: Yeah. Joe: The next thing that I put a pin in my own mental brain was the money portion of this. Right. None of this has to be divulged. I just but let's say your father was a successful reconstructive surgeon, potentially. He made a good living doing that. At the same time, I know when I read doing my own research that when M.S. came around, that was also a financial burden. Right. So. Rachel: Big Joe: So. Rachel: Time. Joe: Right. So we can just let's say we eliminate that fact that he could have helped you at all. But then you have you have Liz being this smart financial person. So potentially she made a decent amount of money in what she was doing to then be able to back this whole thing. So my second question. Oh, yeah. Well, it's easy when you have a lot of money. You have someone who's able to bring in voices and start out with a chunk of capital and all of that. So can you address that both in either how it helped you and how you still think people can do it without having all of that? Rachel: So a couple of things, I think absolutely you can do it without having all of all of that and the that that we had pretty much for one world. I went to a lot of overhead because we had so many people, because it was such it was the One World Live Web site was really like the hub of what that company was. And so there was a lot of big talent being thrown at that because the VCs wanted to see a certain thing. Right. So in product development, if you want to launch a product, I mean, it can be in skin care, whatever it may be. I know that I can go and create a product with a chemist. I can call packaging companies and get samples of what the packaging might be. And I can come up with a marketing plan. And you you can get small business loans to support you on your initial growth. And I am really believe in a grassroots approach. So Radical has like our new business, which is that our Brand Partners program where we're treating that as a brand new business. So just because our our retail business we have from a global that took us a lot of years to put together and create success that doesn't come into my brand partner like I really keep those separated because I want to have this sitting and standing on its own. We could have gone to raise money. We could have, you know, tried to find people that would invest in it. But for us, we actually didn't want to have to deal with investors. We've done that. There's there is a side to having investors in your company that is a lot of work. So there is something really cool about owning your own company and you owning your own company and not having to answer to five other people and tell them what you're doing and why you know that it's on you. So. Joe: I second that, amen, I Rachel: Yeah, Joe: Say that. Rachel: Trust me, we've we've done it, we've had it where it's been investors and we now we have it where it's our own and we much prefer it as our own. Joe: Mm hmm. Rachel: And we're not willing to bring in money to fund our brand partners program because we want that to be it can be done organically. It might not be as fast as the guy that has five million sitting next to me, but does it have the heart and soul that I have? Does it does it have the you know, the credibility that my brand has? Like there's so many different things and who my audience is. So there's always ways of getting into a business without needing lots and lots of money to do it. You just have to take it slow and bit by bit and grow, you know, have a plan in place that you're you're following into doing your own projections, giving yourself like, OK, you can you can go and get private label products, which sometimes is an interesting way of testing a concept where you don't you can buy 100. You can test it on a Web site. I mean, Joe: Mm Rachel: There's Joe: Hmm. Rachel: So many different ways that you can go through your social media, Bienen, you know, you can be your own influencer and whatever it is that your passion and dream might be. So there's definitely ways of starting your business and not being like, oh, gosh, you need millions and millions of dollars to do it. Joe: Ok, great. I love all these answers, because to me, it's encouraging to the audience. And I was hoping that I even though I backed you into a corner on these questions, I know that reading part of your story and empowering women, this is important. And so that's why I want to talk about it as much as I want to make sure that we talk about your business. And trust me, we'll get the word out about Radical. But I think it's important that what this business means to you. I can tell is coming through this interview. And that's what I think is even more important, because that is really what people are attracted to, people who care about people. Right. And there's something that you keep saying that's a great saying that I'm going to steal from you at some point, but I forget what it is. But you'll say it again, I'm sure. And Rachel: Ranchero. Joe: I'll be like, OK, I got to remember that. So quickly, explain to me then the the science part of it, where if you end up working with the chemist, let's say someone out there has an idea and they want to do something. How painful and how long is that process of tweaking and creating the product? And then do products that you sell have to get FDA approval? Rachel: Ok, so no so in skin care, you have ones that are considered like over the counter, which would be an SPF. So those have to go through certain testing in the United States for skin care in the U.S.. It's actually it's pretty loose. It's actually not very rigorous at all. So we are global, so we're EU compliant. So we have a compliance person in the EU that goes through all of our formulations. I make sure they're checking it against the list of all the ingredients that are not allowed on the market or about to not be allowed on the market. It goes down to the like the raw materials, make sure they're paraben free, that they're not using any preservative systems that to be able to make certain claims. Like I can say, I'm paraben free in the U.S. It's not as rigorous. It has some things. And you can literally like look them up online, but they're not regulated. Like people are not regulating your formulas to say what's in it is OK. And think about how many you have a lot of people that make up their own skincare and will sell it even locally that don't have, you know, strong preservative systems in it where, you know, you don't know really how long they can last and that they're good for. But I always encourage that when you're doing development and you're talking to your chemists to make sure that you're being as clean as possible, there's a list on like even on our website that shows all the ingredients that we do not have in under our consciously clean tab. So, Joe: I saw that, which I Rachel: Yeah. Joe: Thought was brilliant, that there's Rachel: Yeah. Joe: No you're not hiding anything, it's all right. There it was. Rachel: Exactly. Joe: It Rachel: So Joe: Was Rachel: It's Joe: Very Rachel: Actually Joe: Impressive. Rachel: It's a resource for other people, honestly, Joe: Yep, Rachel: So, Joe: Yep. Rachel: Which is great. You know, just knowing what you don't want to have going into your product, and the chemist usually have a pretty good handle on that if you're working with a good, good manufacturer. What is regulated is the FTC regulates claims. So you can't make a product and go on Instagram and say, my product reduces fine lines and wrinkles, 400 percent and then show before and after. That's not necessarily the right one or whatever. Like that's where you get in trouble in the U.S. So they regulate that really, really closely. So you do have to be with your marketing. You have to be accurate in your claims and making sure that you're not misleading a customer. Joe: Ok, let's talk about. So now I understand that you still have the global retail business that's still happening in over 900 stores, and I had a note down here in 17 countries, probably Berklee. Now it's 20. So this is amazing. What is the team that you have? So you said you kept you keep the two businesses separate. So what is the team that's running Radical as opposed to the team that's running the ambassador brand program? Rachel: Right. OK, so we used to have a team in London, an office in London, office in Paris, one in Hong Kong, and Liz and I, we're looking at each other saying this does not make sense. And this was when we started Radical. We had definitely some big players involved, which were more on the state lotor level. And so us being entrepreneurial or we're not like corporate girls at all. So put us into a corporate environment or like what do we do here? We're like, we have to clock in and clock out. We're like Joe: Yeah. Rachel: We work. We work 24/7 anyway. Joe: Right. Right. Rachel: That's being an owner of your own company. They wanted to have this really broad footprint. And Liz and I, they were the experts and prestige and we really weren't. So we really follow their lead. And we noticed that like we we built it. We had all the locations. But you really have to have boots on the ground everywhere. So, listen, I ended up saying, you know what, we're going to buy our company back and we're going to do this in a smart way where we have distributors internationally. So like, for instance, in Australia, we work with Mekka, who's the largest skincare or any cosmetics retailer there. It's like the Safar of the U.S. and but they handle everything. I don't have to put freelancer's in the store. I don't have to do anything. They own it and they do an amazing job. And then in the U.K., I have a distributor there, and in Switzerland I have a distributor there. So my international business is very much distributor driven. So they manage their own markets, they invest in their own markets. They have certain things that they're supposed to do in order to maintain their exclusivity there. But that operates pretty much separately. The U.S. it's I have a core team that works just on the brand partners program. And it's a small team because like I said, we're doing this in a very organic way and obviously bringing people that have the experience and building a peer to peer business. So that's been super exciting. And that's that's what's worked by just having a core team that works for only on brand partner business. Joe: Ok, can you talk more about the the brand the ambassador program, just so that we can get an understanding if someone is listening to this and saying, I love this, I love the idea. They go to your website and they look at all of this. They get hit up all the time with all these other programs to sell cosmetics and skin care. It's sometimes it's a hard sell for them. They end up dropping off or they just they can't figure out how to get into something like this. And I'd like to know what your program is about so they know and then why it's different. And obviously that the ingredients that you use that's really coming to the forefront these days is that you're not putting ingredients in that can harm someone. So that's another really important thing. So can you talk a little bit about that program? Rachel: Yes, absolutely. So we kind of what I talked about earlier is that we just started to recognize that our brand is so much more than skin deep, and it always has been. It's just been listen, I speak from the place of possibility all the time. And we with all of our brand partners were like invested in their future. That's like we are invested in their future. That's why we call them brand partners, like you are our partner in this. And that's a big shift in how you are within a company, because we've created such a turnkey solution and support to help you get to wherever it is that you want to go. And we are building a very, very strong core community. We have a our comp plan is very, very simple. We noticed and the different types of ambassador brand partner type programs where there's this exclusion element, if you don't do certain things and you are not a part and our part is you are included. We're like, you can participate with us, however it works for you. So we have people that just are more like influencers are on there. You know, they're selling through their social channels and they're making great money. Then we have people that are like, oh, my gosh, I've got like I want to build a business. Like I want to invest Radical like my new baby. And you guys have handed over the keys with science, clinical backing, credibility. You've been in prestige. You have press for over the past ten years, you know, steeped in science about a movement that matters. And our company is always listen, I only see things like it has to be larger than us. Like everything we do has to be larger than us. Rachel: It's not money. It's not it's like it has to be bigger than us. And so like our vision is and goal will be we're going to be a billion dollar company. And that means that we are we are making millions of dreams come true. Millions. And that is our number one goal is to do that. So and within our community, we have like our deep dive, which we just did on Monday, where we open that up to customers or brand partners, where we do a chapter in our book and we like unpack it and we talk about it. And it's always amazing because it speaks to people wherever they are, whatever they're going through. We have the opportunity to interact and communicate and share ideas. It's great. And then we have a lot of other activities where, you know, we'll be traveling some to meet different people. And we have a shared pool for company sales where you can earn into the share pool. That's three percent of our company. So we're taking profit for all of our brand partners to be able to participate and based on whatever their performance is. So it's like they are profiting. And we have a founder's club, which is a group of individuals that are just working super hard and achieving different levels. So it's it's really a straightforward program. And we have one of the best ladies on our team that really focuses on helping individuals figure out how to incorporate that into their life, understanding comp plans. And she's like the best cheerleader in town, like you want her behind you. You know what I'm saying? She's like, come on, you got Joe: Right. Rachel: This. You know, I call her like Joe: That's awesome. Rachel: So. Yeah, Joe: Ok, cool. Rachel: And it's super easy. You can go on to our website and it says, just become a brand partner. You just click on it and has a lot of information there. Joe: Great. OK. I don't. We're getting close to the end, and I want to keep you longer than I promise. So talk to me about the book, "Get Radical: Secrets to Living a Life You Love." Rachel: Yeah, yes. So that was a labor of love. It was definitely time consuming for the both of us. Like what? What an experience writing a book. Never did we think I mean, my father is like such a. He's like published like 3000 peer review articles. Written books. I mean, it's like that's like no, no problem for him. And Liz and I like we really want to put this to paper, like we want to share through the mentors that we have met. And just the stories, because we really know that there is a technology to getting a life that you love, whether, you know, really getting those fundamentals of goal setting visualization and then what gets in your way. So the fear of failing, you know, people get stuck in making decisions like paralysis. So we talk about a lot of that throughout the story. And we bring in different mentors that share stories that are super relatable, that you can be like, oh, my gosh, that's happened to me. Oh, yeah, I've been through that. Oh, I love that. And at the end of every chapter is really a Radical recap where it gives you back the ideas of like, OK, these are the things that you may want to focus on, the questions you may want to ask yourself some you know, some guided ideas of how to get where you want to go to creating that passion, purpose, health and wealth, you know, whatever that is for you. Joe: Yep. OK. That's awesome. A question I wanted to ask earlier that I forgot, which I think is important in any partnership, because I grew up observing my father in a family business. And it's really tough when you have your own family in the business. It's tough when you are in a partner relationship because a lot of them don't work out as we know, as entrepreneurs. We've heard the horror stories. So with you and Liz, you talked about it earlier, how you both have your strengths and weaknesses. Right. And you use those to conduct this business. Do you recommend or do you have a line in the sand that says, OK, Liz, you are handling all of the financial part of this and anything that comes out of this financial related, that's your baby. I'm doing all the product stuff or whatever. So I'm not putting words in your mouth, Rachel: Right, Joe: But I'm just Rachel: Right, Joe: Trying Rachel: Right. Joe: To give you an example of can you explain how that division works? Rachel: Gosh, I wish it was that clear cut. Joe: Yes. Rachel: Like I'm like, here, take that hat. Oh, wait, wait, I'll Joe: Right. Rachel: Wear Joe: Right. Rachel: This one today. Joe: Exactly. Rachel: That's Joe: Well, Rachel: Kind of. Joe: I think the fear is, is that with businesses and partnerships, it's stuff sometimes somebody say, wait, I thought you were handling that. It's one of those things or you did it, but you didn't do it as well as I would have done. You know, so I'm trying to make sure we get this out to explain that you really have to be honest with yourself and say, I'm really not any good at marketing, so I'm not doing it. And if you don't want to do it as my partner, then we need to get somebody who does. Rachel: Exactly. Joe: So. Rachel: Well, first off, I would always say really, you know, know your family dynamics like how you operate with whether it's a brother or a sister or a family business. And we been fortunate because we we both see things. We both have the same goals, right, so I always say like, know that first, do you do you are you in alignment on what your goals are for your company and what purpose you both have in that? Like make sure you're on the same page? Because if one person sees the company for something else and you see it, then it's always going to be like this. Right? So you have to be on the same page, an alignment on your goals and your vision for what it is that you want. So that's like the biggest thing I can say. Everything else for us. We both have a lot of creative ideas. So I would say that we take our creative ideas and then I do more a lot more on that implement and manage. She does a lot more in the network. And, you know, big picture of whatever it is that we might be be doing. So it's very we complement one another. So I think you do. I think if you can make some more clear boundaries, I wouldn't say we were maybe the perfect example. We're kind of a weird group because we can just kind of work together. Well, I don't know. Maybe since we've been doing it since 1994, I think my sister and I have had maybe two arguments in business, and they went for a good quality like ten minutes and it was over. But yeah, I think having a making sure your visions are in alignment really takes away a lot of the issues. Joe: Ok, so the website is radicalskincare.com. Rachel: Yes. Joe: There is the whole retail side of the business that if any of those people are listening, they can contact you for distributorship wholesale or whatever that might be. And then there's the whole brand ambassador side, Rachel: Yes. Joe: Which is really to empower mostly I think it leans towards women, and I think that's great. But obviously, we talked about earlier that men can get involved because you said that the products are Rachel: Unisex, Joe: What was the word, unisex, Rachel: Unisex. Joe: Right. Is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to talk about before I let you go? Rachel: No, I mean, I guess back to I always just feel like you want to be part of a movement that matters, like really having a movement that matters. And Joe: That's it, I think that's the saying, Rachel: That was Joe: You Rachel: That. Joe: Keep saying, that's Rachel: See, Joe: It. Rachel: I told you it was going to happen. Joe: I love it. Rachel: I Joe: I'm Rachel: Was going Joe: Still Rachel: To get it in right at the end for you. Joe: I'm stealing it. I'm stealing. Rachel: Yeah. So that's like really what we we stand for and being a part of something that's bigger than yourself. And that's what really Radical is all about. It is we're in herself meets outer beauty. And, you know, your purpose is our promise. And that's that's what we want, you know, surrounding yourself in life around like minded people. That's just a beautiful thing. And I think that's what we we want to be able to help others with, to really get to, you know, living a life that they love and dream and going above and beyond. And so we really appreciate you having me on today. And Joe: Yeah, Rachel: I was Joe: Absolutely. Rachel: Really I was happy to be able to distinguish that I'm the younger sister, Joe: Well, Rachel: Older Joe: That's how she Rachel: Man. Joe: Gets that, too. That's what Liz gets. And you can tell her that even though we've never talked, I'm no longer talking to her. Rachel: Right. Yes, OK, we're on the same page. Joe: And I want the I want the audience, the listeners, and then eventually the viewers. But right now, the listeners that listen to the podcast, your message, what you are accomplishing with this is very sincere. And the integrity is there. I hear it in your voice. I see it in your face. So when the viewers go to watch this episode on YouTube, they, too, will understand that this means a lot to you. This is not about making money. This is about empowering people to live the life that they love and to just do great things and feel good about themselves. And it's both with having potentially a small business of their own or a large business through this. It's about making some extra money on the side. It's it's about feeling good, both financially, physically, inside and outside. And I think it's awesome what you're doing. And I just I could tell. Like, I interview a lot of people and the comment maybe it's an L.A. thing, but the calmness in you is not this sales motivated conversation that we're having. It's a conversation from the heart that you love what you do. This is something you wanted to do to help us. And it comes across. So I wanted you to know that that I was hoping so much that it would be this and not be this powerful woman who is just like sell, sell, sell, sell. And if you get this and you come into our program and you can drive a Mercedes in a year Rachel: No, Joe: And Rachel: No, no, Joe: All Rachel: No. Joe: Of that stuff. So this was wonderful. I loved Rachel: Yeah. Joe: It. Rachel: Yeah, well, we're not those girls, Joe: Yeah, Rachel: We're we're definitely heart centered, so. Joe: Perfect. I will put in the show notes all the ways to get in contact with you, the website and all of that, if there unless there's any special spot that you like to communicate. If there's I don't know if your Instagram fan and that's where you like to do it, or just like people to contact through the company email. But now's your chance to tell me Rachel: Yeah, Joe: Or the audience. Rachel: Either way and I was also Joe: Ok. Rachel: Going to do a code, so people Joe: Beautiful. Rachel: That are listening that Joe: Yeah, that'd Rachel: They Joe: Be great. Rachel: Can they can get a 10 percent discount on our products, but also we can send them an eBook. Joe: Beautiful. Rachel: So, yeah, we'd love Joe: Ok. Rachel: To do that so we can do Castelo 10. Joe: Beautiful, I'm going to write it down because I'm old and I'll forget Rachel: There's the old. Joe: It. All right, Castelo, 10 is the code to get 10 percent off. I love Rachel: That's Joe: It. Rachel: Right. Joe: Ok. Beautiful. Rachel, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. This was really cool. It was an honor to speak with you. I love what you're doing. And again, please tell Liz to that. I don't know. I don't ever want to talk to her. Rachel: Ok, Joe: No, it can't. Rachel: I'll call her right now. Joe: Yeah. They say you had one chance to come on Rachel: You Joe: Joe Rachel: Know, Joe: Show Rachel: You had Joe: And you Rachel: It, Joe: And you blew it. Rachel: She Joe: And Rachel: Missed Joe: We. Rachel: You missed the best podcast ever. Joe: Well, we had so much fun and Rachel: We did Joe: Ok, Rachel: The clip. Joe: Thank you so much, and I wish you all the best and I look forward to seeing your progress with everything. And it was really an honor to talk with you. Rachel: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Raise your hand if you've ever felt ashamed or attacked by others for wanting to lose weight or change your body in some way! Today, Erin and Rachel tackle how the body positivity movement can sometimes be toxic and how to move past the toxicity in order to become your best self! The girls chat more: - Figuring out what it is you want for yourself - Challenge what is normal and sustainable for YOU - What you need to get crystal clear on before changing the trajectory of your life - The extremes being shown social media - Why you shouldn't feel ashamed for wanting more while still being present and grateful - And so much more! Resources: Erin's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/the.erin.klein.show/ Rachel's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamrachelbrooks/ The Confident Woman Podcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theconfidentwomanpodcast/ Quotes: “Get crystal clear on that for you and then you can change the trajectory of your life.” - Rachel “It shouldn't feel wrong for wanting more.” - Rachel “I feel like there is no happy medium with places.” - Erin --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theconfidentwoman/message

As we wrap up our 12 week series, Becoming The Confident Woman: From Body Acceptance to Self-Love this episode, Rachel and Erin bring it full circle as they share their message of inspiring, encouraging, and empower women to become their best and most confident selves by creating lasting change within. Let go of who you believe you are and step into who you're created to be, The Confident Woman. Inside, you'll learn more on: ❥ How to make changes from the inside out ❥ Becoming what you believe ❥ Letting go and redefining who you are ❥ Creating your story from the power you have within you ❥ ...and so much more! Resources: Erin's Instagram: @erin_travelsforlife Rachel's Instagram: @iamrachelbrooks The Confident Woman Podcast Instagram: @theconfidentwomanpodcast Quotes: “How we approach our diet and our exercise is really, kind of in nutshell, how we approach life.” - Rachel “If we're looking for those quick fixes to lifelong problems, we're not going to create a sustainable lifestyle.” - Rachel “It's all from the inside out.” - Erin “You're just shoving everything in a closet and eventually that closet door is just going to open and spill out.” - Erin “Even though it's a personal journey, it's done collectively because it takes more than just YOU.” - Rachel --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theconfidentwoman/message

What does it take to finally feel like you are living life the way you were meant to? In part 8 of a 12 week series on Becoming The Confident Woman, Erin and Rachel are chatting about the keys to living the life you've always wanted. They share the importance of getting fit from within and taking time for self-care! The girls cover: ❥ What it truly means to get fit from within ❥ The role self-awareness can play in your life ❥ Why self-care is so important ❥ Prioritizing yourself and your needs before serving/caring for others ❥ Filling your cup up ❥ The one things that changes everything ❥ And so much more! Resources: Erin's Instagram: @erin_travelsforlife Rachel's Instagram: @iamrachelbrooks The Confident Woman Podcast Instagram: @theconfidentwomanpodcast Quotes: ‘I feel like for many women, we're just back there. We're kind of sitting on simmer.” - Rachel “A lot of people don't know where to find that measuring stick of progression.” - Erin “Self-awareness obviously starts with you.” - Rachel “It's never about the body, it's about how we perceive and receive ourselves.” - Rachel “I think truly being self-aware is understanding where you need to get better.” - Erin --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theconfidentwoman/message

Todd: Rachel, I thought we would talk a little bit about items and their shelf life, like how long will you keep something? For example, like a book or clothing, because yesterday I was talking to my students and they were surprised when I admitted that the shirt I was wearing, I had had for over 10 years. Now, they're young and they can't imagine that.Rachel: No, that might be a function of being young.Todd: Right, exactly.Rachel: Because their clothes of 10 years ago are obviously too small.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: It depends on the clothes.Todd: Do you like to keep your clothes a long time?Rachel: If I really like them, I might.Todd: Yeah. How often do you toss out your clothes?Rachel: I toss out clothes once or twice a year. I'll go through my wardrobe and throw out things that are too small or have started to look shabby. But there are other things that I just keep year after year after year, probably things people don't see as often like pajamas might last a little longer.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: Some people advise that if you haven't worn something for six months, you should throw it out, but that seems to me to be not logical, given that there are four seasons and they last a year. If you haven't worn something for a year, maybe you should consider throwing it out. But yeah, definitely, at the start of the season, not in the opposite season. You have to think about the weather.Todd: Yeah. What about food? We live in Japan. We're both teachers in Japan. One thing I often wonder about is the sashimi and the sushi, the raw fish. How long can you keep it before you eat it? They say you're supposed to have it that night, but I sometimes eat it the next morning or even for lunch.Rachel: With fish, as well as other meats, I think it's very easy to tell, because you can tell by the smell whether something's good or not. I actually think that rice is more dangerous.Todd: Oh really?Rachel: Yeah, because it will grow bacteria. Because it's been warm, it will grow bacteria easily at room temperature. The rice is the part you need to be careful about.Todd: Oh. Well what about other foods? Like are you somebody who's really strict about the expiration date?Rachel: I'm not. I think the expiration date on most products errs on the side of safety. And another thing is people confuse the best by date with the expiring date.Todd: Right.Rachel: The best by date is just about freshness, flavor. For example with spices ...Todd: And that's the date they put on the package in the store.Rachel: That's often the date that people go by.Todd: Sell by, yeah.Rachel: Yeah, sell by and best by. For example spices might have a best by date. After that, they might plump a little, they might lose a little flavor, but they're not dangerous.Todd: You can still eat it.Rachel: You can still use them, yeah.Todd: My rule is always three days. So, I'll eat anything if it's within ... except for meat, maybe, but anything if it's within three days of the expiration date or the sell-by date on the store's ...Rachel: Oh, I think that matters ... To me it makes an enormous difference what it is. For example, moyashi, which is bean sprouts, I'll eat them on the day or the day after, but not after that. They start getting bad really quickly. But, for example, a jar of pickles, that's going to last much longer than the three days after.Todd: Right. I think the big one, I guess, you're right about time, is dairy. Milk is obvious, because milk you can smell. But cheese ...Rachel: But on the other hand, it just turns into yogurt.Todd: Right, yes. So that's the other one is yogurt. So yogurt, I'll see it in the fridge and I'm like, "How long can I keep this?" Like sometimes it'll be past the expiration date, but it smells fine, it looks fine.Rachel: Well, yogurt is soured milk, so it's difficult to say at which point it sours, because it's already sour.Todd: Yeah, and cheese too lasts forever it seems like.Rachel: Pretty much. You can see the mold on cheese.Todd: Yeah. So what about if you see bread and there's a little mold on the bread?Rachel: No.Todd: Are you old school? Will you cut around it?Rachel: No. I used to and I used to cut the mold off cheese, but having learned more about visible mold is only a small amount of it and parts of mold you can't see are branching into the food.Todd: Oh, I see.Rachel: Yeah. So that makes it a little dodgier. So, no I probably wouldn't eat bread that had any kind of mold on it. And I'm dodgy about cheese to. That's got the wrong sort of mold on it.Todd: Right.Rachel: There's the right sort of mold like a blue cheese, and that's fine.Todd: Right. And I should clarify here, neither of us are medical professionals.Rachel: Don't take this advise.Todd: We're just talking about our own habits here, so ...Rachel: Another thing that ...Todd: What about juice? What about juice? Like how long can you keep juice? Can you smell when juice is bad?Rachel: I don't usually buy juice, so I don't really know.Todd: Oh, yeah.Rachel: Maybe you can smell it.Todd: Maybe you can smell it.Rachel: Yeah, I'd probably toss juice because I'm not experienced enough with it, obviously, to have made my own mind up about it, so I'd probably go by the date with that one.Todd: What's interesting is when you see some foods that you think would last forever, but actually they won't, they just have an expiration date that's way in the future, like canned goods.Rachel: Yes.Todd: Sometimes it's surprising when you're like, "Oh, there actually is an expiration date on there."Rachel: There is.Todd: But it's way in the future.Rachel: It's way in the future, as long as the can's not dented, I think ...Todd: Or rusty, right?Rachel: ... is the rule for that. Yeah.Todd: Yeah. Interesting topic.

Todd: Rachel, I thought we would talk a little bit about items and their shelf life, like how long will you keep something? For example, like a book or clothing, because yesterday I was talking to my students and they were surprised when I admitted that the shirt I was wearing, I had had for over 10 years. Now, they're young and they can't imagine that.Rachel: No, that might be a function of being young.Todd: Right, exactly.Rachel: Because their clothes of 10 years ago are obviously too small.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: It depends on the clothes.Todd: Do you like to keep your clothes a long time?Rachel: If I really like them, I might.Todd: Yeah. How often do you toss out your clothes?Rachel: I toss out clothes once or twice a year. I'll go through my wardrobe and throw out things that are too small or have started to look shabby. But there are other things that I just keep year after year after year, probably things people don't see as often like pajamas might last a little longer.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: Some people advise that if you haven't worn something for six months, you should throw it out, but that seems to me to be not logical, given that there are four seasons and they last a year. If you haven't worn something for a year, maybe you should consider throwing it out. But yeah, definitely, at the start of the season, not in the opposite season. You have to think about the weather.Todd: Yeah. What about food? We live in Japan. We're both teachers in Japan. One thing I often wonder about is the sashimi and the sushi, the raw fish. How long can you keep it before you eat it? They say you're supposed to have it that night, but I sometimes eat it the next morning or even for lunch.Rachel: With fish, as well as other meats, I think it's very easy to tell, because you can tell by the smell whether something's good or not. I actually think that rice is more dangerous.Todd: Oh really?Rachel: Yeah, because it will grow bacteria. Because it's been warm, it will grow bacteria easily at room temperature. The rice is the part you need to be careful about.Todd: Oh. Well what about other foods? Like are you somebody who's really strict about the expiration date?Rachel: I'm not. I think the expiration date on most products errs on the side of safety. And another thing is people confuse the best by date with the expiring date.Todd: Right.Rachel: The best by date is just about freshness, flavor. For example with spices ...Todd: And that's the date they put on the package in the store.Rachel: That's often the date that people go by.Todd: Sell by, yeah.Rachel: Yeah, sell by and best by. For example spices might have a best by date. After that, they might plump a little, they might lose a little flavor, but they're not dangerous.Todd: You can still eat it.Rachel: You can still use them, yeah.Todd: My rule is always three days. So, I'll eat anything if it's within ... except for meat, maybe, but anything if it's within three days of the expiration date or the sell-by date on the store's ...Rachel: Oh, I think that matters ... To me it makes an enormous difference what it is. For example, moyashi, which is bean sprouts, I'll eat them on the day or the day after, but not after that. They start getting bad really quickly. But, for example, a jar of pickles, that's going to last much longer than the three days after.Todd: Right. I think the big one, I guess, you're right about time, is dairy. Milk is obvious, because milk you can smell. But cheese ...Rachel: But on the other hand, it just turns into yogurt.Todd: Right, yes. So that's the other one is yogurt. So yogurt, I'll see it in the fridge and I'm like, "How long can I keep this?" Like sometimes it'll be past the expiration date, but it smells fine, it looks fine.Rachel: Well, yogurt is soured milk, so it's difficult to say at which point it sours, because it's already sour.Todd: Yeah, and cheese too lasts forever it seems like.Rachel: Pretty much. You can see the mold on cheese.Todd: Yeah. So what about if you see bread and there's a little mold on the bread?Rachel: No.Todd: Are you old school? Will you cut around it?Rachel: No. I used to and I used to cut the mold off cheese, but having learned more about visible mold is only a small amount of it and parts of mold you can't see are branching into the food.Todd: Oh, I see.Rachel: Yeah. So that makes it a little dodgier. So, no I probably wouldn't eat bread that had any kind of mold on it. And I'm dodgy about cheese to. That's got the wrong sort of mold on it.Todd: Right.Rachel: There's the right sort of mold like a blue cheese, and that's fine.Todd: Right. And I should clarify here, neither of us are medical professionals.Rachel: Don't take this advise.Todd: We're just talking about our own habits here, so ...Rachel: Another thing that ...Todd: What about juice? What about juice? Like how long can you keep juice? Can you smell when juice is bad?Rachel: I don't usually buy juice, so I don't really know.Todd: Oh, yeah.Rachel: Maybe you can smell it.Todd: Maybe you can smell it.Rachel: Yeah, I'd probably toss juice because I'm not experienced enough with it, obviously, to have made my own mind up about it, so I'd probably go by the date with that one.Todd: What's interesting is when you see some foods that you think would last forever, but actually they won't, they just have an expiration date that's way in the future, like canned goods.Rachel: Yes.Todd: Sometimes it's surprising when you're like, "Oh, there actually is an expiration date on there."Rachel: There is.Todd: But it's way in the future.Rachel: It's way in the future, as long as the can's not dented, I think ...Todd: Or rusty, right?Rachel: ... is the rule for that. Yeah.Todd: Yeah. Interesting topic.

Todd: Rachel, I thought we would talk a little bit about items and their shelf life, like how long will you keep something? For example, like a book or clothing, because yesterday I was talking to my students and they were surprised when I admitted that the shirt I was wearing, I had had for over 10 years. Now, they're young and they can't imagine that.Rachel: No, that might be a function of being young.Todd: Right, exactly.Rachel: Because their clothes of 10 years ago are obviously too small.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: It depends on the clothes.Todd: Do you like to keep your clothes a long time?Rachel: If I really like them, I might.Todd: Yeah. How often do you toss out your clothes?Rachel: I toss out clothes once or twice a year. I'll go through my wardrobe and throw out things that are too small or have started to look shabby. But there are other things that I just keep year after year after year, probably things people don't see as often like pajamas might last a little longer.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: Some people advise that if you haven't worn something for six months, you should throw it out, but that seems to me to be not logical, given that there are four seasons and they last a year. If you haven't worn something for a year, maybe you should consider throwing it out. But yeah, definitely, at the start of the season, not in the opposite season. You have to think about the weather.Todd: Yeah. What about food? We live in Japan. We're both teachers in Japan. One thing I often wonder about is the sashimi and the sushi, the raw fish. How long can you keep it before you eat it? They say you're supposed to have it that night, but I sometimes eat it the next morning or even for lunch.Rachel: With fish, as well as other meats, I think it's very easy to tell, because you can tell by the smell whether something's good or not. I actually think that rice is more dangerous.Todd: Oh really?Rachel: Yeah, because it will grow bacteria. Because it's been warm, it will grow bacteria easily at room temperature. The rice is the part you need to be careful about.Todd: Oh. Well what about other foods? Like are you somebody who's really strict about the expiration date?Rachel: I'm not. I think the expiration date on most products errs on the side of safety. And another thing is people confuse the best by date with the expiring date.Todd: Right.Rachel: The best by date is just about freshness, flavor. For example with spices ...Todd: And that's the date they put on the package in the store.Rachel: That's often the date that people go by.Todd: Sell by, yeah.Rachel: Yeah, sell by and best by. For example spices might have a best by date. After that, they might plump a little, they might lose a little flavor, but they're not dangerous.Todd: You can still eat it.Rachel: You can still use them, yeah.Todd: My rule is always three days. So, I'll eat anything if it's within ... except for meat, maybe, but anything if it's within three days of the expiration date or the sell-by date on the store's ...Rachel: Oh, I think that matters ... To me it makes an enormous difference what it is. For example, moyashi, which is bean sprouts, I'll eat them on the day or the day after, but not after that. They start getting bad really quickly. But, for example, a jar of pickles, that's going to last much longer than the three days after.Todd: Right. I think the big one, I guess, you're right about time, is dairy. Milk is obvious, because milk you can smell. But cheese ...Rachel: But on the other hand, it just turns into yogurt.Todd: Right, yes. So that's the other one is yogurt. So yogurt, I'll see it in the fridge and I'm like, "How long can I keep this?" Like sometimes it'll be past the expiration date, but it smells fine, it looks fine.Rachel: Well, yogurt is soured milk, so it's difficult to say at which point it sours, because it's already sour.Todd: Yeah, and cheese too lasts forever it seems like.Rachel: Pretty much. You can see the mold on cheese.Todd: Yeah. So what about if you see bread and there's a little mold on the bread?Rachel: No.Todd: Are you old school? Will you cut around it?Rachel: No. I used to and I used to cut the mold off cheese, but having learned more about visible mold is only a small amount of it and parts of mold you can't see are branching into the food.Todd: Oh, I see.Rachel: Yeah. So that makes it a little dodgier. So, no I probably wouldn't eat bread that had any kind of mold on it. And I'm dodgy about cheese to. That's got the wrong sort of mold on it.Todd: Right.Rachel: There's the right sort of mold like a blue cheese, and that's fine.Todd: Right. And I should clarify here, neither of us are medical professionals.Rachel: Don't take this advise.Todd: We're just talking about our own habits here, so ...Rachel: Another thing that ...Todd: What about juice? What about juice? Like how long can you keep juice? Can you smell when juice is bad?Rachel: I don't usually buy juice, so I don't really know.Todd: Oh, yeah.Rachel: Maybe you can smell it.Todd: Maybe you can smell it.Rachel: Yeah, I'd probably toss juice because I'm not experienced enough with it, obviously, to have made my own mind up about it, so I'd probably go by the date with that one.Todd: What's interesting is when you see some foods that you think would last forever, but actually they won't, they just have an expiration date that's way in the future, like canned goods.Rachel: Yes.Todd: Sometimes it's surprising when you're like, "Oh, there actually is an expiration date on there."Rachel: There is.Todd: But it's way in the future.Rachel: It's way in the future, as long as the can's not dented, I think ...Todd: Or rusty, right?Rachel: ... is the rule for that. Yeah.Todd: Yeah. Interesting topic.

Todd: I'm here with Rachel. We were talking about expiration dates. You were saying that you throw out your clothes regularly.Rachel: Fairly regularly.Todd: Yeah. Do you donate them or just toss them?Rachel: I put them in the recycling.Todd: There you go.Rachel: And hope they're going to be remade into something else.Todd: Yeah, I guess, yeah I always take it out on the day that they'll say that they'll pick up clothes.Rachel: Yeah. The reason for that is because I usually put, throw clothes out when they'll start to look a bit shabby, so I don't think anyone else wants to wear them.Todd: Right.Rachel: By that stage.Todd: What about furniture? How often do you try to get new furniture?Rachel: Almost never.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: That's something I don't ... Yeah, I'll put up with what I've got.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: It seems like such a waste to throw out such large things.Todd: Yeah, but you never want to replace the couch or the chair?Rachel: The couch has been replaced three or four times.Todd: Right.Rachel: That's a big one, but we've still got the same kitchen table. We had got to get some new chairs.Todd: Yeah, I've never been a big furniture guy, but I just when I see something that's really cheap ... I would never buy new furniture. I'm always amazed like who buys new furniture? Because when you walk by a store and you see the furniture, it's so expensive. I'm gonna sound really cheap, but it's like I'm like, wow, why would you pay hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars for that when you can just buy one used or whatever for ten bucks or twenty bucks?Rachel: I'm definitely a used furniture person now.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: When we moved into our house we did go to a furniture store and bought all new furniture. It's easy. It's done. Everything looks new. It's kind of nice, but I almost exclusively buy second-hand furniture now. Depending on which store you go to, you can get some really good bargains on some beautiful old antique, that look really nice in your house, and cost a fraction of something new.Todd: Yeah. That's why you like anything that's made with metal or wood because you usually think it's going to age well.Rachel: Yes.Todd: Plastic, not so much.Rachel: No, no. I've definitely sworn off plastic. I think plastic's a fill in if you need something quickly.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: And cheaply, but definitely don't like to buy plastic now.Todd: What about electronic goods, like getting a new TV, a new refrigerator, stuff like that? How often do you buy?Rachel: We just wait until that breaks down. That's a pretty easy one.Todd: What about the TV though? The TVs don't break down. They go on forever. How often do you think, oh I want a new TV, I want a new nicer TV?Rachel: Our last TV broke.Todd: It did?Rachel: Well, we had lightning hit the house, and we lost several electronic items.Todd: Wow.Rachel: We lost a keyboard and a computer. I think we lost two out of ... We had three hard disc DV players.Todd: It was an electrical surge that fried all the circuits?Rachel: It fried the house, yeah pretty much.Todd: Wow. I did not know that could happen.Rachel: Yeah.

Todd: I'm here with Rachel. We were talking about expiration dates. You were saying that you throw out your clothes regularly.Rachel: Fairly regularly.Todd: Yeah. Do you donate them or just toss them?Rachel: I put them in the recycling.Todd: There you go.Rachel: And hope they're going to be remade into something else.Todd: Yeah, I guess, yeah I always take it out on the day that they'll say that they'll pick up clothes.Rachel: Yeah. The reason for that is because I usually put, throw clothes out when they'll start to look a bit shabby, so I don't think anyone else wants to wear them.Todd: Right.Rachel: By that stage.Todd: What about furniture? How often do you try to get new furniture?Rachel: Almost never.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: That's something I don't ... Yeah, I'll put up with what I've got.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: It seems like such a waste to throw out such large things.Todd: Yeah, but you never want to replace the couch or the chair?Rachel: The couch has been replaced three or four times.Todd: Right.Rachel: That's a big one, but we've still got the same kitchen table. We had got to get some new chairs.Todd: Yeah, I've never been a big furniture guy, but I just when I see something that's really cheap ... I would never buy new furniture. I'm always amazed like who buys new furniture? Because when you walk by a store and you see the furniture, it's so expensive. I'm gonna sound really cheap, but it's like I'm like, wow, why would you pay hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars for that when you can just buy one used or whatever for ten bucks or twenty bucks?Rachel: I'm definitely a used furniture person now.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: When we moved into our house we did go to a furniture store and bought all new furniture. It's easy. It's done. Everything looks new. It's kind of nice, but I almost exclusively buy second-hand furniture now. Depending on which store you go to, you can get some really good bargains on some beautiful old antique, that look really nice in your house, and cost a fraction of something new.Todd: Yeah. That's why you like anything that's made with metal or wood because you usually think it's going to age well.Rachel: Yes.Todd: Plastic, not so much.Rachel: No, no. I've definitely sworn off plastic. I think plastic's a fill in if you need something quickly.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: And cheaply, but definitely don't like to buy plastic now.Todd: What about electronic goods, like getting a new TV, a new refrigerator, stuff like that? How often do you buy?Rachel: We just wait until that breaks down. That's a pretty easy one.Todd: What about the TV though? The TVs don't break down. They go on forever. How often do you think, oh I want a new TV, I want a new nicer TV?Rachel: Our last TV broke.Todd: It did?Rachel: Well, we had lightning hit the house, and we lost several electronic items.Todd: Wow.Rachel: We lost a keyboard and a computer. I think we lost two out of ... We had three hard disc DV players.Todd: It was an electrical surge that fried all the circuits?Rachel: It fried the house, yeah pretty much.Todd: Wow. I did not know that could happen.Rachel: Yeah.

Todd: I'm here with Rachel. We were talking about expiration dates. You were saying that you throw out your clothes regularly.Rachel: Fairly regularly.Todd: Yeah. Do you donate them or just toss them?Rachel: I put them in the recycling.Todd: There you go.Rachel: And hope they're going to be remade into something else.Todd: Yeah, I guess, yeah I always take it out on the day that they'll say that they'll pick up clothes.Rachel: Yeah. The reason for that is because I usually put, throw clothes out when they'll start to look a bit shabby, so I don't think anyone else wants to wear them.Todd: Right.Rachel: By that stage.Todd: What about furniture? How often do you try to get new furniture?Rachel: Almost never.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: That's something I don't ... Yeah, I'll put up with what I've got.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: It seems like such a waste to throw out such large things.Todd: Yeah, but you never want to replace the couch or the chair?Rachel: The couch has been replaced three or four times.Todd: Right.Rachel: That's a big one, but we've still got the same kitchen table. We had got to get some new chairs.Todd: Yeah, I've never been a big furniture guy, but I just when I see something that's really cheap ... I would never buy new furniture. I'm always amazed like who buys new furniture? Because when you walk by a store and you see the furniture, it's so expensive. I'm gonna sound really cheap, but it's like I'm like, wow, why would you pay hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars for that when you can just buy one used or whatever for ten bucks or twenty bucks?Rachel: I'm definitely a used furniture person now.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: When we moved into our house we did go to a furniture store and bought all new furniture. It's easy. It's done. Everything looks new. It's kind of nice, but I almost exclusively buy second-hand furniture now. Depending on which store you go to, you can get some really good bargains on some beautiful old antique, that look really nice in your house, and cost a fraction of something new.Todd: Yeah. That's why you like anything that's made with metal or wood because you usually think it's going to age well.Rachel: Yes.Todd: Plastic, not so much.Rachel: No, no. I've definitely sworn off plastic. I think plastic's a fill in if you need something quickly.Todd: Yeah.Rachel: And cheaply, but definitely don't like to buy plastic now.Todd: What about electronic goods, like getting a new TV, a new refrigerator, stuff like that? How often do you buy?Rachel: We just wait until that breaks down. That's a pretty easy one.Todd: What about the TV though? The TVs don't break down. They go on forever. How often do you think, oh I want a new TV, I want a new nicer TV?Rachel: Our last TV broke.Todd: It did?Rachel: Well, we had lightning hit the house, and we lost several electronic items.Todd: Wow.Rachel: We lost a keyboard and a computer. I think we lost two out of ... We had three hard disc DV players.Todd: It was an electrical surge that fried all the circuits?Rachel: It fried the house, yeah pretty much.Todd: Wow. I did not know that could happen.Rachel: Yeah.

Todd: So Rachel, you said that in your home country, New Zealand, there're lots of birds that don't fly?Rachel: Yes, there are a lot of birds that don't fly.Todd: Wow, so I only new of the kiwi and of course the penguin, but I didn't know of other ones. So first the kiwi. It doesn't fly, right?Rachel: That's the famous one.Todd: Right.Rachel: They don't fly but they can run very fast. I've seen them.Todd: Liike and are the kiwi all over? Like are there different types of kiwi?Rachel: Yeah, there are several different varieties. They're very rare though, and they're nocturanal.Todd: Oh, nocturnal.Rachel: I'd say most New Zealanders have never seen one in the wild. I've only seen them in Kiwi parks.Todd: Oh, really.Rachel: Yeah, you don't see them.Todd: So, I thought they'd be like kangaroos in Australia, or something like you go and there's one.Rachel: No, they're very precious and very rare. One that you see more often is the pukeko which is ... it looks a little bit like a stork I suppose except it's dark blue.Todd: What's it called?Rachel: Pukeko.Todd: Pukeko.Rachel: Ah, yeah, and they're a lot more commom. And takahe is another oneTodd: So the first one ...Rachel: You can see them along the side of the road. When you're driving through the countryside they're much more common.Todd: So this pukeko, does it fly?Rachel: No, they don't fly.Todd: Really, and it's like a stork. It has long legs?Rachel: It has quite long legs. Yeah, it a very cute little bird, but it's very dark.Todd: How tall is it? Like up to your knee? Up to your hip?Rachel: Up to your knees.Todd: Really.Rachel: Cute little bird.Todd: That's awesome. So what was the other one you mentioned?Rachel: Takahe. It's very similar looking to that one. It's a little different. It's difficult to tell apart.Todd: Really, and it's also kind of dark blueish.Rachel: Yeah, another one's a kakapo. A very famous one. It's New Zealand's flightless green parrot. It's kind of like a large fat parrot that lives on the ground.Todd: Really.Rachel: It's extremely rare. I'm not sure what the numbers are now, but around twenty years ago I think there were only 45 leftTodd: Oh, that is rare.Rachel: Extremely rare, so there's an intensive breeding program for them, and of course nobody's seen those in the wild.Todd: Yeah, you have to be careful or it'll go like the way of the Tasmanian tiger.Rachel: Yeah, they breed and they nest on the ground. They lay their eggs on the ground, so they're very vulnerable to introduced predators, to any animals.Todd: Yeah, I know that, you don't have snakes, but I know that snakes when they got into Guam they like decimated the bird population.Rachel: Yep. That's what would happen and that's why New Zealand immigration customs is very strict about what kind of animals you can bring in. We don't even have snakes in zoos.Todd: That's smart.Rachel: Michael Jackson famously came to New Zealand in the 1980's and wanted to bring his pet snake with him and he wasn't allowed to.Todd: Oh, good on you.Rachel: There were no exceptions to that rule.Todd: Are there any other birds that don't fly? For example do you have penguins?Rachel: Oh, yes, there's lots of penguins in New Zealand.Todd: In the south right?Rachel: Yeah, in the south. Oh, they come up to the north sometimes.Todd: Really, that far north?Rachel: Yeah, occasionally. The big colonies are down south.Todd: Ah, that's amazing. How cool. Any other birds that don't fly?Rachel: Not that I can think of off the top of my head. I'd have to look it up on the Internet.Todd: No, that's still though ... that's quite a few. That's so nice.Rachel: The most famous was the moa of course.Todd: The moa?Rachel: Which is an ostrich sized bird.Todd: Oh, really.Rachel: Yeah, but they were ... they were killed off before Europeans arrived in New Zealand.Todd: Oh, easy hunting.Rachel: They were easy hunting. Yeah. And a big feast.Todd: It's funny how when you go to a place, you really want to see like a local animal, so last year I went to the Middle East. I went to U.A.E and Oman, and I just wanted to see a camel. I wanted to see a camel so bad, and I thought like I'd go down the road..Rachel: Everyone drives a Mercedes these days.Todd: and there'd be a camel, and I was kind of going out in the countryside. I wasn't just in the city, and I never saw a camel, and I was asking people that work there, and they're like, "yeah, you do see them" but I was just so heartbroken that I never saw a camel.Rachel: Ooh!Todd: It's one of my favorite animals. I just think they look so cool, so when I go to New Zealand, I have to make sure I see a kiwi.Rachel: But you'll have to go to the kiwi house.Todd: The Kiwi House.Rachel: The Kiwi House it's called. Or just look up zoos.Todd: And they got 'em?Rachel: Yep, they got 'em there. But you won't just see them driving around.

Todd: So Rachel, you said that in your home country, New Zealand, there're lots of birds that don't fly?Rachel: Yes, there are a lot of birds that don't fly.Todd: Wow, so I only new of the kiwi and of course the penguin, but I didn't know of other ones. So first the kiwi. It doesn't fly, right?Rachel: That's the famous one.Todd: Right.Rachel: They don't fly but they can run very fast. I've seen them.Todd: Liike and are the kiwi all over? Like are there different types of kiwi?Rachel: Yeah, there are several different varieties. They're very rare though, and they're nocturanal.Todd: Oh, nocturnal.Rachel: I'd say most New Zealanders have never seen one in the wild. I've only seen them in Kiwi parks.Todd: Oh, really.Rachel: Yeah, you don't see them.Todd: So, I thought they'd be like kangaroos in Australia, or something like you go and there's one.Rachel: No, they're very precious and very rare. One that you see more often is the pukeko which is ... it looks a little bit like a stork I suppose except it's dark blue.Todd: What's it called?Rachel: Pukeko.Todd: Pukeko.Rachel: Ah, yeah, and they're a lot more commom. And takahe is another oneTodd: So the first one ...Rachel: You can see them along the side of the road. When you're driving through the countryside they're much more common.Todd: So this pukeko, does it fly?Rachel: No, they don't fly.Todd: Really, and it's like a stork. It has long legs?Rachel: It has quite long legs. Yeah, it a very cute little bird, but it's very dark.Todd: How tall is it? Like up to your knee? Up to your hip?Rachel: Up to your knees.Todd: Really.Rachel: Cute little bird.Todd: That's awesome. So what was the other one you mentioned?Rachel: Takahe. It's very similar looking to that one. It's a little different. It's difficult to tell apart.Todd: Really, and it's also kind of dark blueish.Rachel: Yeah, another one's a kakapo. A very famous one. It's New Zealand's flightless green parrot. It's kind of like a large fat parrot that lives on the ground.Todd: Really.Rachel: It's extremely rare. I'm not sure what the numbers are now, but around twenty years ago I think there were only 45 leftTodd: Oh, that is rare.Rachel: Extremely rare, so there's an intensive breeding program for them, and of course nobody's seen those in the wild.Todd: Yeah, you have to be careful or it'll go like the way of the Tasmanian tiger.Rachel: Yeah, they breed and they nest on the ground. They lay their eggs on the ground, so they're very vulnerable to introduced predators, to any animals.Todd: Yeah, I know that, you don't have snakes, but I know that snakes when they got into Guam they like decimated the bird population.Rachel: Yep. That's what would happen and that's why New Zealand immigration customs is very strict about what kind of animals you can bring in. We don't even have snakes in zoos.Todd: That's smart.Rachel: Michael Jackson famously came to New Zealand in the 1980's and wanted to bring his pet snake with him and he wasn't allowed to.Todd: Oh, good on you.Rachel: There were no exceptions to that rule.Todd: Are there any other birds that don't fly? For example do you have penguins?Rachel: Oh, yes, there's lots of penguins in New Zealand.Todd: In the south right?Rachel: Yeah, in the south. Oh, they come up to the north sometimes.Todd: Really, that far north?Rachel: Yeah, occasionally. The big colonies are down south.Todd: Ah, that's amazing. How cool. Any other birds that don't fly?Rachel: Not that I can think of off the top of my head. I'd have to look it up on the Internet.Todd: No, that's still though ... that's quite a few. That's so nice.Rachel: The most famous was the moa of course.Todd: The moa?Rachel: Which is an ostrich sized bird.Todd: Oh, really.Rachel: Yeah, but they were ... they were killed off before Europeans arrived in New Zealand.Todd: Oh, easy hunting.Rachel: They were easy hunting. Yeah. And a big feast.Todd: It's funny how when you go to a place, you really want to see like a local animal, so last year I went to the Middle East. I went to U.A.E and Oman, and I just wanted to see a camel. I wanted to see a camel so bad, and I thought like I'd go down the road..Rachel: Everyone drives a Mercedes these days.Todd: and there'd be a camel, and I was kind of going out in the countryside. I wasn't just in the city, and I never saw a camel, and I was asking people that work there, and they're like, "yeah, you do see them" but I was just so heartbroken that I never saw a camel.Rachel: Ooh!Todd: It's one of my favorite animals. I just think they look so cool, so when I go to New Zealand, I have to make sure I see a kiwi.Rachel: But you'll have to go to the kiwi house.Todd: The Kiwi House.Rachel: The Kiwi House it's called. Or just look up zoos.Todd: And they got 'em?Rachel: Yep, they got 'em there. But you won't just see them driving around.

Todd: So Rachel, you said that in your home country, New Zealand, there're lots of birds that don't fly?Rachel: Yes, there are a lot of birds that don't fly.Todd: Wow, so I only new of the kiwi and of course the penguin, but I didn't know of other ones. So first the kiwi. It doesn't fly, right?Rachel: That's the famous one.Todd: Right.Rachel: They don't fly but they can run very fast. I've seen them.Todd: Liike and are the kiwi all over? Like are there different types of kiwi?Rachel: Yeah, there are several different varieties. They're very rare though, and they're nocturanal.Todd: Oh, nocturnal.Rachel: I'd say most New Zealanders have never seen one in the wild. I've only seen them in Kiwi parks.Todd: Oh, really.Rachel: Yeah, you don't see them.Todd: So, I thought they'd be like kangaroos in Australia, or something like you go and there's one.Rachel: No, they're very precious and very rare. One that you see more often is the pukeko which is ... it looks a little bit like a stork I suppose except it's dark blue.Todd: What's it called?Rachel: Pukeko.Todd: Pukeko.Rachel: Ah, yeah, and they're a lot more commom. And takahe is another oneTodd: So the first one ...Rachel: You can see them along the side of the road. When you're driving through the countryside they're much more common.Todd: So this pukeko, does it fly?Rachel: No, they don't fly.Todd: Really, and it's like a stork. It has long legs?Rachel: It has quite long legs. Yeah, it a very cute little bird, but it's very dark.Todd: How tall is it? Like up to your knee? Up to your hip?Rachel: Up to your knees.Todd: Really.Rachel: Cute little bird.Todd: That's awesome. So what was the other one you mentioned?Rachel: Takahe. It's very similar looking to that one. It's a little different. It's difficult to tell apart.Todd: Really, and it's also kind of dark blueish.Rachel: Yeah, another one's a kakapo. A very famous one. It's New Zealand's flightless green parrot. It's kind of like a large fat parrot that lives on the ground.Todd: Really.Rachel: It's extremely rare. I'm not sure what the numbers are now, but around twenty years ago I think there were only 45 leftTodd: Oh, that is rare.Rachel: Extremely rare, so there's an intensive breeding program for them, and of course nobody's seen those in the wild.Todd: Yeah, you have to be careful or it'll go like the way of the Tasmanian tiger.Rachel: Yeah, they breed and they nest on the ground. They lay their eggs on the ground, so they're very vulnerable to introduced predators, to any animals.Todd: Yeah, I know that, you don't have snakes, but I know that snakes when they got into Guam they like decimated the bird population.Rachel: Yep. That's what would happen and that's why New Zealand immigration customs is very strict about what kind of animals you can bring in. We don't even have snakes in zoos.Todd: That's smart.Rachel: Michael Jackson famously came to New Zealand in the 1980's and wanted to bring his pet snake with him and he wasn't allowed to.Todd: Oh, good on you.Rachel: There were no exceptions to that rule.Todd: Are there any other birds that don't fly? For example do you have penguins?Rachel: Oh, yes, there's lots of penguins in New Zealand.Todd: In the south right?Rachel: Yeah, in the south. Oh, they come up to the north sometimes.Todd: Really, that far north?Rachel: Yeah, occasionally. The big colonies are down south.Todd: Ah, that's amazing. How cool. Any other birds that don't fly?Rachel: Not that I can think of off the top of my head. I'd have to look it up on the Internet.Todd: No, that's still though ... that's quite a few. That's so nice.Rachel: The most famous was the moa of course.Todd: The moa?Rachel: Which is an ostrich sized bird.Todd: Oh, really.Rachel: Yeah, but they were ... they were killed off before Europeans arrived in New Zealand.Todd: Oh, easy hunting.Rachel: They were easy hunting. Yeah. And a big feast.Todd: It's funny how when you go to a place, you really want to see like a local animal, so last year I went to the Middle East. I went to U.A.E and Oman, and I just wanted to see a camel. I wanted to see a camel so bad, and I thought like I'd go down the road..Rachel: Everyone drives a Mercedes these days.Todd: and there'd be a camel, and I was kind of going out in the countryside. I wasn't just in the city, and I never saw a camel, and I was asking people that work there, and they're like, "yeah, you do see them" but I was just so heartbroken that I never saw a camel.Rachel: Ooh!Todd: It's one of my favorite animals. I just think they look so cool, so when I go to New Zealand, I have to make sure I see a kiwi.Rachel: But you'll have to go to the kiwi house.Todd: The Kiwi House.Rachel: The Kiwi House it's called. Or just look up zoos.Todd: And they got 'em?Rachel: Yep, they got 'em there. But you won't just see them driving around.

Todd: So Rachel, you are from New Zealand, correct?Rachel: Yes, that's right.Todd: Now when I lived in London many years ago my roommate was from New Zealand. Really nice guy, and he had the coolest job. He would ride around motorbike in New Zealand. In the bush as he called it. The wild as we sayRachel: The bush.Todd: The bush. And his job was to just kill invasive species. That was his job. Just go out and plant traps for rabbits.Rachel: Yes, that's right. Actually, I have a friend how does that now.Todd: Really?Rachel: Yes.Todd: So it's that big of a problem? You have to like ...Rachel: It's a huge problem, yeah.Todd: Really, like so what animals are a problem?Rachel: Rabbits like you mentioned. Possums are a big problem in the bush because they eat a lot of the native plantsTodd: We have possums too in America in Northern California and they are disgusting. I love animals but they're one animal I don't like. They just ... they're nasty.Rachel: There's a big possum hunt in many areas every year and they're starting to sell the pelts as fur because they're not a protected species so there's no limits on how much you can catch and how much fur you can sell.Todd: Yeah, and they often have rabies right? At least in the states we have to be very careful.Rachel: No we don't have rabies in New Zealand.Todd: Oh, that's good to know.Rachel: So ...Todd: Yeah, we have crazy stories of possums or raccoons having rabies, so when you see one, like they tell you, do not touch it, don't go near it, because if you get bit you're ... Yeah, I got bit a dog while I was in Thailand and had to get the rabies shot and it was not fun.Rachel: Oh, that sounds awful.Todd: Yeah, and luckily for me I went in to get the shot because I didn't know about really rabies. I wasn't educated about it, and I thought well, the dog just bit me a little bit, but I better go and check and the doctor was like, "Oh, now, it can kill you" like "Yeah, you better get it checked out."Rachel: This is one of the reasons we have very strict import laws in New Zealand. We've seen the damage that can be done, and we're very strict now. Rabies is one of the diseases that we don't have and very keen not to ever have.Todd: So you have a problem with possums and with rabbits.Rachel: Rabbits on farms. There are also wild deer and boar in the forests who also do a lot of damage and stray cats and dogs as well also kill a lot of native species. There are no native animals in New Zealand. The only mammals that are native to New Zealand are dolphins and bats, so there are no natural hunters except for hawks. So the birds, a lot of the birds have lost the ability to fly and they nest on the ground, so they're enormously vulnerable to predator species like cats and dogs. They've almost completely decimated many bird species, so that's why they're hunters throughout New Zealand who are basically given free range to shoot whatever they can find because they're so destructive to the natural environment.Todd: Yeah, I think I read somewhere where you have some campaign to have like no predators by a certain year, right like a new thing in New Zealand.Rachel: I haven't heard of that but I wouldn't be surprised. I think that's always been a goal.Todd: I think it was ... it was in the news. I'll have to check so I could be wrong, but I think it was 2050 is the goal of the government to have no predators.Rachel: That would be amazing.Todd: And they said the big one is dogs and cats. That's like the sticking point.Rachel: They're starting to get much stricter about controlling cats and dogs now. Keeping cats inside and keeping dogs leashed, so that they don't run off into the bush and cause a lot of problems.Todd: But dogs I think are probably more domesticated. They're probably not as dangerous, but cats are basically ... they're not that domesticated. They're still natural hunters.Rachel: Yeah, we keep them with us to hunt, you know, pests like mice. They live with us, so yeah, they catch a lot of birds, but with the birds nesting on the ground and unable to fly, it's very easy for the dogs to kill them as well.Todd: Oh, I see. And dogs can just be naughty sometimesRachel: Heck yes. They runoff.Todd: So what do you think? Do you think your country can achieve this goal - no predators - by 2050?Rachel: It sounds very challenging. I think at present, only some of the offshore islands are completely pest free. Well, no predators yeah that's not quite the same as no pests because pests also include things like rabbits and possums and deer that don't eat the native species so just predator-free might be a bit more achievable I think.

Todd: So Rachel, you are from New Zealand, correct?Rachel: Yes, that's right.Todd: Now when I lived in London many years ago my roommate was from New Zealand. Really nice guy, and he had the coolest job. He would ride around motorbike in New Zealand. In the bush as he called it. The wild as we sayRachel: The bush.Todd: The bush. And his job was to just kill invasive species. That was his job. Just go out and plant traps for rabbits.Rachel: Yes, that's right. Actually, I have a friend how does that now.Todd: Really?Rachel: Yes.Todd: So it's that big of a problem? You have to like ...Rachel: It's a huge problem, yeah.Todd: Really, like so what animals are a problem?Rachel: Rabbits like you mentioned. Possums are a big problem in the bush because they eat a lot of the native plantsTodd: We have possums too in America in Northern California and they are disgusting. I love animals but they're one animal I don't like. They just ... they're nasty.Rachel: There's a big possum hunt in many areas every year and they're starting to sell the pelts as fur because they're not a protected species so there's no limits on how much you can catch and how much fur you can sell.Todd: Yeah, and they often have rabies right? At least in the states we have to be very careful.Rachel: No we don't have rabies in New Zealand.Todd: Oh, that's good to know.Rachel: So ...Todd: Yeah, we have crazy stories of possums or raccoons having rabies, so when you see one, like they tell you, do not touch it, don't go near it, because if you get bit you're ... Yeah, I got bit a dog while I was in Thailand and had to get the rabies shot and it was not fun.Rachel: Oh, that sounds awful.Todd: Yeah, and luckily for me I went in to get the shot because I didn't know about really rabies. I wasn't educated about it, and I thought well, the dog just bit me a little bit, but I better go and check and the doctor was like, "Oh, now, it can kill you" like "Yeah, you better get it checked out."Rachel: This is one of the reasons we have very strict import laws in New Zealand. We've seen the damage that can be done, and we're very strict now. Rabies is one of the diseases that we don't have and very keen not to ever have.Todd: So you have a problem with possums and with rabbits.Rachel: Rabbits on farms. There are also wild deer and boar in the forests who also do a lot of damage and stray cats and dogs as well also kill a lot of native species. There are no native animals in New Zealand. The only mammals that are native to New Zealand are dolphins and bats, so there are no natural hunters except for hawks. So the birds, a lot of the birds have lost the ability to fly and they nest on the ground, so they're enormously vulnerable to predator species like cats and dogs. They've almost completely decimated many bird species, so that's why they're hunters throughout New Zealand who are basically given free range to shoot whatever they can find because they're so destructive to the natural environment.Todd: Yeah, I think I read somewhere where you have some campaign to have like no predators by a certain year, right like a new thing in New Zealand.Rachel: I haven't heard of that but I wouldn't be surprised. I think that's always been a goal.Todd: I think it was ... it was in the news. I'll have to check so I could be wrong, but I think it was 2050 is the goal of the government to have no predators.Rachel: That would be amazing.Todd: And they said the big one is dogs and cats. That's like the sticking point.Rachel: They're starting to get much stricter about controlling cats and dogs now. Keeping cats inside and keeping dogs leashed, so that they don't run off into the bush and cause a lot of problems.Todd: But dogs I think are probably more domesticated. They're probably not as dangerous, but cats are basically ... they're not that domesticated. They're still natural hunters.Rachel: Yeah, we keep them with us to hunt, you know, pests like mice. They live with us, so yeah, they catch a lot of birds, but with the birds nesting on the ground and unable to fly, it's very easy for the dogs to kill them as well.Todd: Oh, I see. And dogs can just be naughty sometimesRachel: Heck yes. They runoff.Todd: So what do you think? Do you think your country can achieve this goal - no predators - by 2050?Rachel: It sounds very challenging. I think at present, only some of the offshore islands are completely pest free. Well, no predators yeah that's not quite the same as no pests because pests also include things like rabbits and possums and deer that don't eat the native species so just predator-free might be a bit more achievable I think.

Todd: So Rachel, you are from New Zealand, correct?Rachel: Yes, that's right.Todd: Now when I lived in London many years ago my roommate was from New Zealand. Really nice guy, and he had the coolest job. He would ride around motorbike in New Zealand. In the bush as he called it. The wild as we sayRachel: The bush.Todd: The bush. And his job was to just kill invasive species. That was his job. Just go out and plant traps for rabbits.Rachel: Yes, that's right. Actually, I have a friend how does that now.Todd: Really?Rachel: Yes.Todd: So it's that big of a problem? You have to like ...Rachel: It's a huge problem, yeah.Todd: Really, like so what animals are a problem?Rachel: Rabbits like you mentioned. Possums are a big problem in the bush because they eat a lot of the native plantsTodd: We have possums too in America in Northern California and they are disgusting. I love animals but they're one animal I don't like. They just ... they're nasty.Rachel: There's a big possum hunt in many areas every year and they're starting to sell the pelts as fur because they're not a protected species so there's no limits on how much you can catch and how much fur you can sell.Todd: Yeah, and they often have rabies right? At least in the states we have to be very careful.Rachel: No we don't have rabies in New Zealand.Todd: Oh, that's good to know.Rachel: So ...Todd: Yeah, we have crazy stories of possums or raccoons having rabies, so when you see one, like they tell you, do not touch it, don't go near it, because if you get bit you're ... Yeah, I got bit a dog while I was in Thailand and had to get the rabies shot and it was not fun.Rachel: Oh, that sounds awful.Todd: Yeah, and luckily for me I went in to get the shot because I didn't know about really rabies. I wasn't educated about it, and I thought well, the dog just bit me a little bit, but I better go and check and the doctor was like, "Oh, now, it can kill you" like "Yeah, you better get it checked out."Rachel: This is one of the reasons we have very strict import laws in New Zealand. We've seen the damage that can be done, and we're very strict now. Rabies is one of the diseases that we don't have and very keen not to ever have.Todd: So you have a problem with possums and with rabbits.Rachel: Rabbits on farms. There are also wild deer and boar in the forests who also do a lot of damage and stray cats and dogs as well also kill a lot of native species. There are no native animals in New Zealand. The only mammals that are native to New Zealand are dolphins and bats, so there are no natural hunters except for hawks. So the birds, a lot of the birds have lost the ability to fly and they nest on the ground, so they're enormously vulnerable to predator species like cats and dogs. They've almost completely decimated many bird species, so that's why they're hunters throughout New Zealand who are basically given free range to shoot whatever they can find because they're so destructive to the natural environment.Todd: Yeah, I think I read somewhere where you have some campaign to have like no predators by a certain year, right like a new thing in New Zealand.Rachel: I haven't heard of that but I wouldn't be surprised. I think that's always been a goal.Todd: I think it was ... it was in the news. I'll have to check so I could be wrong, but I think it was 2050 is the goal of the government to have no predators.Rachel: That would be amazing.Todd: And they said the big one is dogs and cats. That's like the sticking point.Rachel: They're starting to get much stricter about controlling cats and dogs now. Keeping cats inside and keeping dogs leashed, so that they don't run off into the bush and cause a lot of problems.Todd: But dogs I think are probably more domesticated. They're probably not as dangerous, but cats are basically ... they're not that domesticated. They're still natural hunters.Rachel: Yeah, we keep them with us to hunt, you know, pests like mice. They live with us, so yeah, they catch a lot of birds, but with the birds nesting on the ground and unable to fly, it's very easy for the dogs to kill them as well.Todd: Oh, I see. And dogs can just be naughty sometimesRachel: Heck yes. They runoff.Todd: So what do you think? Do you think your country can achieve this goal - no predators - by 2050?Rachel: It sounds very challenging. I think at present, only some of the offshore islands are completely pest free. Well, no predators yeah that's not quite the same as no pests because pests also include things like rabbits and possums and deer that don't eat the native species so just predator-free might be a bit more achievable I think.

My guest today is Rachel Porges, former CMO of Levain Bakery, the maker of the most famous 6-ounce chocolate chip walnut cookie. This is Part 2 of the interview where we explore how she grew the Levain business.This is the free edition of Marketing BS. Premium subscribers got access to part 1 of Rachel's interview yesterday and twice the content every week.You can also listen to these interviews in your podcast player of choice: Apple, Sticher, TuneIn, Overcast , Spotify. Private Feed (for premium episodes).This Essay is Sponsored by PulsarStop doing generic social listening: tap into Audience IntelligenceDifferent communities talk about the same topic differently. Carry out instant conversation analysis + audience segmentation in just one tool with audience intelligence platform Pulsar: understand the public conversation, identify the top communities in your audience, and glean actionable creative & media insights to power your marketing.  TranscriptEdward: This is part two of my interview with Rachel Porges. Today, we're going to dive into her experience as Chief Marketing Officer for Levain Bakery. Rachel, can you start by explaining what Levain Bakery is, and how I'm mispronouncing it? Rachel: You're actually getting it exactly right, which is a first for me because nobody pronounces it right. Levain Bakery was founded about 25 years ago by two amazing women, Pam Leekes and Connie McDonald, as a little bakery shop in the Upper West Side in New York. They were actually training for marathons and were making cookies at home for themselves to keep up their energy. They're training for triathlons and were keeping up their energy with these giant cookies. They started selling them. The New York Times picked it up and the world changed. To this day, 25 years later, even in COVID, there are lines down the block at the bakeries for these cookies. They're an icon. If you've ever seen one of those pictures of a giant cookie being broken on Instagram, the genesis is Levain Bakery. Levain brought them private equity money a couple of years ago and hired a new executive chief, of which I was one, to take the brand forward and figure out how to scale it out of four bakeries in New York—three in the city, one in the Hamptons—and do three things. One was to increase the footprint of the bakeries and add stores, two was to grow ecommerce, and three was to launch into CVJ. I was involved in all three of those things over the course of my couple of years there. The store, it fits incredibly. Even in the middle of this pandemic, the performance of the stores and of all the other pieces of the business has been truly remarkable. I was super honored to be a huge part of it, and I continue to advise them today.Edward: How are they different than all the other bakeries out there? Is it just a better product? What makes them different?Rachel: It's a really interesting question. One is that this cookie, it's the first of its kind in this giant cookie. The cookies are six ounces. Picture a softball squished down and break it up with a ton of chocolate chips in it, it's a little insane, so just the size and scale. I think what Levain does better than anyone is in experience. When you walk in, you're greeted by people that love what they're doing. When you walk up to one of the bakeries—whether it's on the Upper West Side, or in the Hamptons, or the store we opened a couple of weeks ago in Washington, DC—outside, you see people snapping pictures of that cookie break. You see people with these joyous faces. That's what it does better than anyone.Sure, we have really great bread, some sticky buns, and all of those things, but what Levain does best is it creates a moment of joy for people. At any time, it's a big piece of it. Pam and Connie often talk about the fact that 9/11 people came up to the bakery as a place just to get a moment of normal [...] to hell that was that day. The same thing has happened. We got customers coming in during the pandemic handing our employees notes (with gloved hands) saying thank you for being here at this time. It's not just the cookie, that's the moment. What we see is that translates across ecommerce, certainly where people want to send their friend a moment of joy. They send our cookies via our DTC website. As I helped to create the CPG product, it was incumbent upon us to make sure that we did that there as well. It's really easy to throw something in a bag and put it on a shelf and have to be a different experience, but what makes those special is that breaking open that moment of joy, the dewy chocolate chips. We had to find a way to bring that to life at a grocery store when you don't control the environment around you.Edward: That cookie is obviously very important, especially for the brand. Is it important sales? What percentage of your sales would come from that cookie versus everything else?Rachel: I can't disclose numbers, but a whole hell of a lot. Edward: It's more than just a brand, though. It's like people come in and buy the cookie, and everything else is there almost just like an add-on. It's like, I'll have fries with that.Rachel: Yeah, which is ironic because the name is actually a type of bread. Levain is a leaven sourdough bread out of France. It's an actual name for a sourdough starter or a fermented starter. The brand is the cookie to some extent. Even our logo that we launched last year is a cookie. It has nothing to do with the original name of it. No one lines up down the street. I'd love to say they do. Certainly, our products are amazing across the board, but they line up down the street for the cookie. As we extended that brand, it became really important that the cookie stays at the center of it. That's where a lot of marketers sometimes get confused is they forget that the consumer has a voice in what you're trying to do. For us, it became really obvious as we were watching social media, as we were talking to people online, as we watched sales. They're telling us what to maximize growing this business. That became a big common arc of what we did as we extended the channels.Edward: Why expand the product at all? Do you get incremental sales by having bread? How do you decide what else to add in?Rachel: We've actually had much the same menu for the better part of 25 years. We haven't done a ton of add-in. Pam and Connie—prior to the growth equity coming in—made some changes along the way. In my time there, we actually didn't add anything. As we had to narrow the menu during the pandemic just to make it easier to operate, we didn't take out any of the cookies. We took out other things that were either complicated, took up space, or caused a little bit of operational hurdle. Bread actually—interestingly enough during the pandemic—became a bigger piece of it because people needed the staples at home in a way that they didn't before, or they had other venues to get it before. But the cookies remained true. In the time that I was there, there are three big innovations that I helped with. One was the ice cream sandwich on the Upper East Side last summer using our cookies, which is kind of a media darling at the time. It drove a lot of excitement because suddenly, we are using our cookies for a different purpose. By the way, ridiculously decadent and very much in keeping with the brand, we launched the first-ever chocolate chip cookie without nuts, which was unheard of before at Levain. Levain had only had a chocolate chip cookie with walnuts. We launched a chocolate chip cookie, it's called Two Chip Chocolate Chip. It has two different types of chocolate chips in it. We launched that when we opened our no-host store in February of 2020. We'll do that to the other bakeries as well. Just a couple of weeks ago, we co-created a cookie in Washington, DC with a local James Beard recognized chef. Again, made sure we savored the cookie and brought something to life, but did it in a way that localized the brand as we are going to new markets. Edward: I want to talk a little bit about moving Levain into CPG from retail. You've already mentioned a little bit of the challenges doing it. What are the other challenges of moving a retail brand into CPG?Rachel: Product experience is number one on that list, so maintaining the experience. It doesn't have to be the same experience as what we found, but it had to be something that was relevant. We actually didn't launch our six-ounce cookies into CPG. We did an everyday indulgent size two-ounce cookie. The reason we did that is because who needs the six-ounce cookie every day? You're not going to get the eating occasions you need for the velocity at the shelf at retail. We did that. We also did it in a way that wasn't very main to a lot of brands. You see it even recently with Milk Bar. They go and they launch into the same set that has Tate's, Oreo, and all of these other brands in it. For us, we decided to go to frozen desserts because it is a dead category in a place that we could really stand out and deliver real value to the retailer and to the customer. That was a lot of fun. The other thing is cannibalization. You have to be really clear of what you're trying to achieve, and make sure you do nothing to either bastardize or cannibalize the cash cow, the thing that's giving you life. Moving forward, assuming that the CPG product continues to be as successful as the early launch numbers would show, the vast majority of the consumers in the world are going to experience us first as a CPG brand. We had to create a really nice usage circle that encouraged them to also consider coming to New York and coming to the bakery or purchasing the crazy giant cookies as a gift for friends. It all has to be really harmonious. If you try to segment it out and make it one versus the other, you're losing the value that the future buyers at one bakery might actually want.Edward: Where is the future value of CPG? Is it almost as a loss leader driving to the bakeries, or is it a profit center in itself? In fact, to your point, a much more scalable product than your bakeries. Are your bakeries the marquee that helps you sell CPG or the CPG like a marketing channel that gets you to the bakeries?Rachel: Both. It's certainly the latter. It's certainly not a loss leader. It's certainly a valid profit center into itself as it grows. I couldn't say that you would put one over the other. Obviously, the scale you can get at a CPG, you can take [...] and go to 40,000 stores, as opposed to the cost of building out 40,000 bakeries. It would be alarmingly high, not to mention highly cannibalistic at some point. I'm not speaking to Levain strategy, but I don't think it would ever make sense for Levain to be on every street corner everywhere. We said that time and time again. There's still a beauty in the scarcity of that bakery experience and in making it a moment of joy. It's the same thing as my time at Kriser's and other brands. You have to maintain an experience to bother having a brick and mortar facility. It has to be something that you walk in. It's not just about the transaction. Nothing in brick and mortar is strictly transactional anymore. We've seen the failure of so many bricks and mortars that were strictly transactional. CPG creates a moment that appeals to a consumer who has a craving at home and needs something in their pantry or in their freezer to heat up at night. Retail creates an experience when you want to have that, when you an Epicurious traveler who walks into New York, DC, or wherever we had next, and wants a real moment of experience. There are different [...] but they are fed together if the brand stays harmonious. Edward: Let's say 40 years from now, the pandemic is over, people go to the restaurants again and both businesses are super successful. You've expanded to CPG, you've expanded the footprint for the retail. At that point, looking that far into the future, are they both comparably sized businesses? Maybe the retail business is smaller but more profitable, but the received CPG business is larger but smaller margins?Rachel: I don't want to speculate too far into the future. There's only so much I can share, but they both have a place. I think DTC does this well for what it's worth. Whether it's me or whoever comes in next as CMO and obviously our CEO—Andy—they have to make sure that they're always building around the consumer insight. That's the key for it. The consumers will dictate ultimately the size of the prize. They'll tell you how big it is. You could see a world in which the bakery product set is mimicked in retail at some point. Here's the core bet. Cookies are a red herring to some extent. What you're creating is a decadent moment of joy. It's ooey, gooey, delicious, warm, fresh-baked, and it has all this connotation around it. You could take your product line into different places. You could take your bakery experience to different places as long as you maintain that experience across the channels. I don't know whether it's size, product varieties, or how that comes to life, but the consumers will dictate the size of the prize for sure.Edward: What are the prerequisites for a retailer moving in the CPG? You've had obviously a lot of success, Starbucks has a lot of success, but I don't go into my Safeway and see Subway sandwiches prepackaged. Maybe those exist, but they surely aren't successful. What do retailers need to have done in order to be successful when they move into the CPG?Rachel: Building a brand that has something unique about it is the core. Not to crap on Subway, but I'm not sure that Subway has a unique factor in the way that if you look at Jersey Mike's, they do Mike's way and they have a sauce that goes on. There are unique things that make that special. You could take some of that [...] in it. They launched their sauces at Whole Foods and have a CPG business. Milk Bar has done it recently with their product. There's a real distinct point of view for some of these brands that have gone from bakery, restaurant, or a retail brick and mortar experience into CPG. Hale and Hearty did with soups here in the city for a while. That's what really matters. Years ago, when I was at Unilever, I launched P.F. Chang's frozen. It was the biggest launch in North America that year. It was because, at that time, P.F. Chang's was incredibly loved by consumers. It had a really distinct point of view. It was this very bold flavor profile to most of America at the time—this is 2010—which doesn't sound like it was that long ago, but P.F. Chang's is bold. When we were creating the products, we did our damndest to make sure that we kept that flavor profile, that mouth deal, to the extent that we were worrying one morning at 8:30 AM. We were talking about the cut of carrots. Bolthouse Farms had run out of the carrot cut that we usually use for orange chicken. We were tasting different cuts of carrots in the orange chicken to make sure we didn't do anything to lose that mouthfeel and taste profile for P.F. Chang's. That's what it is. You have to have a point of view that can be carried into a new format, irrespective of the chairman. I actually helped advise a small brand called tenoverten which is a nail salon company here in the city. They're [...] different times. They launched their nail products into Target. When they opened their nail salons in the city, it was with the idea of creating an environment that was better for the employees and better for the customers in terms of the chemicals used in the products, the odors, and the space, the nail polish remover, they were using non-acetone. They were creating a whole new environment. When they launched their products into Target, it was with that same mindset. It was with that mindset of being very conscious of everything that went into that product experience. It's been really great. They've had some great success in CPG. That's what it comes down to. Same thing if you look at a brand like Drybar. They were able to create products that live outside of their retail environment. It was taking that point of view and that experience into something that you could bring and port with you. Edward: That was super insightful. I want to dive back a little bit and go into the retail space and growing the retail space. It feels like a big, important part of growing retail is having a really good product and having a really good location. Given that you have those things, as a marketer, how do you help accelerate the business beyond that?Rachel: There are two things in my past that come to life. One is making sure that you're never resting on your laurels. Kriser's was one of my past experiences. I remember my second week on the job at Kriser's. The brand was called Kriser's For Your Pet's All Natural Life when I started. If you look across the parking lot in Irvine, California, or in Englewood, Colorado, you see Kriser's For Your Pet's All Natural Life. I walked back in my second week of the job and I said to the CEO, we have to change the name of the store. He said, would you like to wait until week three to have that opinion? I said, no. I know you've been doing this for nine years, when you're standing across the parking lot, you can't read it. People don't know what it is. You can't see that icon that you created. You can't see that it is a pet retail environment. We did and sales popped up. It was a matter of continuously questioning everything you are doing and making sure that it really rang true to what the customer needed. Along with that is the idea of using customer experience to help drive your communication. As marketers, we strive for advocacy. It's the top of the pyramid or the bottom of the funnel or the top of the funnel depending on which area your funnel's headed this week. You want those handfuls of customers to be really crazy advocates for your brand. Social media and digital platforms have given us a method to repurpose that at scale. At Levain, we took our social following from 100,000 to 250,000 people in less than 18 months. The way we did that was by using what consumers were telling us time and time. We didn't pay a single one of those followers. It was because we were using what consumers were showing their friends in our communication. There was this great virtuous cycle of user-generated content, sharing experiences, bringing people back, and wanting that same experience. We started creating our entire photoshoots around the idea of capturing that same piece of experiences. We did our influencer work, it became the same thing. As we built our new website last year in 2019, we did the same thing. We used images that were representative of what the consumer was telling us mattered to them. With retail as a marketer, it goes back to always being the voice of the consumer and championing that to executives who are more focused on operational efficiency, product assortment, or labor cost because nothing matters if the consumer doesn't carry it forward. Edward: Yeah. It's almost not even appealing to the consumer. It's using your consumers for market research, like figuring out this is what they value because this is what they're sharing and this is what's getting traction among consumers. Let's use that and just scale it.Rachel: For sure. It's the cheapest form of market research. Who needs to run a study when people are telling you every single day? You have social listening. There are a million platforms for social listening. Just search the hashtags on Instagram or on Tiktok, and you will see what consumers are telling you. You joked at the beginning of the last podcast or the beginning of this one, about not saying Levain correctly. There's a whole world in which we needed to understand that people don't understand how to say our name.On the back of our CPG process, our product, and on our website, there's a comment that says ləˈvan in phonetics. It's the idea of, oh, we can actually work and have this dialogue in this interaction with consumers. One of the tech platforms I love is a company called Pixlee. They're from the Andreessen Horowitz Portfolio. They do a beautiful job with helping friends commercialize their user-generated content, either by just embedding it on the website or by enabling you to make that shoppable by scaling the idea of a permissioning UGC. I use it on almost every website I put together, because isn't it better to show not tell? Marc Mathieu—who was the former CEO of Unilever and Samsung at one point—he had a quote. I'm trying to remember exactly what it was, but it's something along the lines of, marketing used to be about creating a story and telling it. Now, it's about finding the truth and sharing it. Insofar as we as marketers listen to our truth—not just our truth but what consumers are telling us is true about us—we're just going to be so much more successful. That gives us the content by which the van Gogh do your AB testing, site optimization, social media buying, and all of these things that are the technical side of marketing. They're BS—to use your term—if you don't have the right assets and the right communication embedded within it.Edward: This has been awesome, Rachel. Before you go, tell me about your quake book. Rachel: I probably have two, actually. One, I just finished reading Pride and Prejudice when I was a teenager. Edward: How did that change your world view?Rachel: I became a romantic. My parents weren't lovey-dovey. I wasn't into all the romance stuff when I was a kid, but that changed my view of where romance novels started. To me, it's the basis for almost every great romance novel that ever existed. Poor guys in my life have probably set up a really bad bar to be measured against. Most recently, I just finished reading Where the Crawdads Sing. I don't want to give away the book if people haven't read it, but it tells you about, again, prejudice about seeing the truth, and how much you can fall prey to people's ideas of what things are. To me, it was a truly beautiful book, but also that meant that I'm going to be thinking about it for quite a while.Edward: Thank you, Rachel. This has been great. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

1. move in with sb 与某人同居 Gary觉得和菲比的感情发展很顺利于是说I am gonna ask Phoebe to move in with me. Move in with sb 与某人同居, big step for a relationship. Monica: So it looks like it's going really well for you two, huh?Gary: I know, really well. In fact, I'm gonna ask Phoebe to move in with me.Monica: (shocked) Oh my God!Gary: What do you, what do you think?Monica: I think that is so great! When are you gonna ask her?Gary: Tonight, but don't say anything. Okay?Monica: I swear, I promise. I promise. Oh my God, I'm so excited! {And I just can't hide it! I'm about to lose control and I think I like it! Sorry, just couldn't resist it.} All right, listen let me tell you, do not get her flowers. Okay? Because y'know, she cries when they die, and there's the whole funeral…Gary: (To Phoebe) I'll see you after work sweetie. (Kisses her.)Phoebe: Okay. Bye!2. jinx 乌鸦嘴 几个人在玩投球的时候，谈到投球的时间，Joey说I don't want to jinx it. Jinx当名词指的是不祥的人或物。当动词讲是给某人或事带来厄运，倒霉。这样的人也可以说是乌鸦嘴。Joey: Hey, what time is it?Ross: (looks at his watch) 2:17.Joey: Wow! You realize that we've been throwing this ball, without dropping it, for like an hour?Ross: Are you serious?!Joey: Yeah. I realized it about a half-hour ago but I didn't want to say anything 'cause I didn't want to jinx it.Ross: Wow! We are pretty good at this! Hey! We totally forgot about lunch!Joey: Oh, I-I, I think that's the first time I ever missed a meal! (Checks his pants.) Yeah, my pants are a little loose!3. 美国红星 Shaun Cassidy Rachel说带来了一个从小就喜欢的东西。Ross问是不是Shaun Cassidy. 此君是美国影视歌加上写作四栖明星，年轻时红透美国，青少年偶像。现在已是大叔，专心从事剧本创作。Rachel: (entering) Hey, you guys…Joey: Hey!Rachel: Is Monica here?Joey and Ross: No.Rachel: All right listen umm, I just bought something I'm not sure she's gonna like it, and it's gonna seem a little crazy, but this is something that I wanted since I was a little girl.Ross: You bought Shawn Cassidy!Rachel: Noo! I wish! Okay, you ready?Joey and Ross: Yeah!4. Sphinx Cat 斯芬克斯猫 Rachel拿来一只猫叫做Sphinx Cat 斯芬克斯猫，俗称加拿大无毛猫，专门为对猫毛过敏的爱猫人士特地养殖的，比较罕见，被称为世界上最丑的动物之一，所以Ross和Joey不认为这是只猫。Ross: What-what is it?!Joey: What the hell is that?!!Rachel: It's a, it's a cat!Joey: That, is not a cat! {I have to agree with Joey on this one.}Rachel: Yes it is!Ross: Why is it inside out?!Rachel: Excuse me! But this is a purebred, show-quality Sphinx cat!5. good for nothing 一无是处 Chandler没能完成菲比交给他的任务，菲比说他是Good for nothing. good for nothing = useless，一无是处的。也可以当做名词来用,无用之人，没用的东西。Chandler: Hi!Phoebe: Hmm, did you talk to Gary about the moving in thing?Chandler: Yes I did, and I think you should do it.Phoebe: What?!Chandler: He's a great guy, y'know? And he loves you a lot, you are a very lucky lady.Phoebe: You are useless! Freaking out about commitment is the one thing you can do! The one thing! And you can't even do that right! God!Chandler: I'm sorry. (Pause) If you ask me, I'd move in with him.Phoebe: Ohh!! God! Ooh! (To Chandler) Get out of here, good for nothing.6. show cat 纯种猫 Rachel在卖猫的时候叫卖Show cat. Show cat指的是经过认证的纯种猫，是可以参加名猫博览会的猫。这种猫经过认证后体内会植入microchip芯片，不是想山寨就可以山寨的。Rachel:Show cat! Quality show cat! Show cat! (A woman approaches.)Woman No. 1: (looks into the box) Oh my God! What's wrong with your baby?!Rachel: It's not a baby! It's a cat!Woman No. 1: Eew! It's creepy looking!Rachel: Oh no! No! It's actually—it's very sweet. It's very sweet. Look! (Goes to pet it and it hisses at her.) Yeah, do you want it?Woman No. 1: (laughs) No, I hate cats.Rachel: Well, so then what are you doing to me? Okay? Just get out of here! All right? Move on!7. haggle 讨价还价 Rachel卖猫的时候对潜在的买猫客户说You know how to haggle. Haggle在这里等于bargain. 砍价，讨价还价。Woman No. 2: Wow! What an unusual cat!Rachel: Yes! Thank you! Exactly! You want it?Woman No. 2: Maybe. I was thinking about getting a cat, I was just going to go to the shelter (Good for her) but… Okay, why not?Rachel: Oh, terrific! That'll be $2,000.Woman No. 2: What?!Rachel: Okay, a thousand.Woman No. 2: I thought you wanted to adopt your cat.Rachel: Well, I do, but you're just gonna have to actually look at this as more of an investment than a cat.Woman No. 2: Okay, yeah, I just wanted a cat. Rachel: Obviously you know how to haggle, so I'm not gonna try and take you on. Okay? So $800 and I don't call the cops because you're robbing me blind! Blind! Just take cat, leave the money, and run away! Run away! Damnit!

Tired of your job? Feel like there is no room for growth or expansion? Today, Erin and Rachel take a look at Rachel's journey to entrepreneurship, finding the right fit for her life, and how you can do the same! The girls talk about: What different careers Rachel had before she entered entrepreneurship The stagnation in your career that could be holding you back Why asking for help can be key even when it's difficult to do The period of time that really allowed Rachel to grow into entrepreneurship Who you need to seek validation from Tapping into your skills and talents to find a career you're passionate about The one thing that you will always encounter along the way And so much more! Let's take a listen! Resources: Rachel's Instagram: @iamrachelbrooks Erin's Instagram: @erin_travelsforlife The Confident Woman Podcast Instagram: @theconfidentwomanpodcast Quotes: “I knew I had to quit because it was really toxic for me. “ - Rachel “It was the greatest decision I ever made.” - Rachel “You can't wear 37 hats in a day” - Rachel “I value freedom and flexibility more than I do money.” - Rachel --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theconfidentwoman/message

Rachel Drori has come a long way from the days of filling a shopping cart at Trader Joe's and packing up healthy, frozen meals for delivery to customers all around New York — all while being nine-months pregnant. As the Founder and CEO of Daily Harvest, Rachel bootstrapped her company from the very beginning, and eventually had a few big names reach out to invest, including folks like Serena Williams and Gwyneth Paltrow. In 2019, Daily Harvest generated more than $125M in revenue and the company is growing. So what makes her meal-delivery service different from the others? The heavy focus on customer-centricity.When Rachel founded Daily Harvest, her goal was to build a customer-driven company that connected people with food that was designed specifically for them. But what did that look like from a practical standpoint and what can others learn from Rachel’s journey? On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, we’ll give you the answers to just that, so stay tuned!Main Takeaways:Nimble and Agile: In marketing and customer acquisition, it’s a mistake to be reliant on any one channel. Having the ability to understand and follow the trends, and then meet potential customers where they are at the moment they are online will allow you to actually bring in new customers reliably.Call and Response: Customers are less interested in having a place to share their thoughts than they are in having their feedback responded to by the brand they are interacting with. In every channel, there should be a way to engage in two-way conversations with your customers and then a method to follow through on those customers’ needs in a way that everyone can see.High On Your Own Supply: Having control of your supply chain is one of the best ways to create agility within your organization. But sometimes it takes some technology investment to bring all your suppliers on board.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles, your host and co-founder of mission.org. Today on the show, we have Rachel Drori, the founder and CEO of Daily Harvest. Rachel, welcome, welcome.Rachel:Hi, thanks for having me.Stephanie:Thanks for coming on. So yesterday in the mail, I got an amazing box of Daily Harvest. And it was the perfect way for me to understand exactly what it was and enjoyed this morning. But to kick it off, maybe I'll let you explain what Daily Harvest is.Rachel:First of all, I need to know what you tried first, and then....Stephanie:I tried a smoothie, and today I'm going to be trying one of the soups in there. I think there was a lentil soup that you just add water to. I'm like, "This is what I need in my life, something that you just add water to or just add coconut water to make a smoothie and it's done."Rachel:I love it. Yes. So I started Daily Harvest about five years ago. And the mission is simple. It's really to take care of food so that food can take care of all of us. And we do this by starting at the root with our farmers. And we grow the best fruits and vegetables in the best way possible. And then we make incredible food, which I'm glad you got to try. [inaudible] smoothies and flatbreads, ice cream, alongside with people who eat it, our customers. And the idea is that you can then stock your home with convenient, but also clean and delicious food that's built on real fruits and vegetables. And part of our magic is really connecting people with food that was designed specifically for them so that you're really always stocked with a whole food kitchen of clean food when you want it and it's ready in minutes.Stephanie:I love that. I think on my Twitter, I posted a picture of my freezer and what it looks like. And it was kind of sad because there was like waffles next to one of them. I'm like, "What?" This is my life. I have waffles and then now a new experience that I don't think I'll be able to step away from after this.Rachel:Well, that's what I like to hear. But it's interesting, people buying additional freezers in the last few months. And I'm like, "I support this message. I support this very much."Stephanie:That is awesome. So tell me a little bit about the early days of when you were starting it. I mean, I'm thinking about all the different logistics and the supply chain and working with farmers. And I want to kind of hear how it all got started.Rachel:So as I started pulling on the strings really trying to figure out why the food that I wanted didn't exist, what I realized is that it was because food is not customer driven. The way food is created is actually really far from that. And the reason food is not customer driven is actually a true systemic problem. So as I set out to start Daily Harvest, part of what I wanted to do was really solve some of the systemic challenges with food. Not only the convenience and the health factor, but also why do we have to choose between preserving ourselves and preserving the planet all of the time with packaging and sustainability and regenerative farming practices and all the stuff that makes our food systems so broken? So back in those early days, I had these really grand ambitions, still have the grand ambitions, but less power to actually make them happen in those days. And what I did was I faked it all until I was actually able to do them.Rachel:So I was buying our ingredients at Trader Joe's. I wasn't telling stories of things that were going to happen in future but buying ingredients at Trader Joe's, got a commercial kitchen in Long Island City. And my right hand and my left hand were my first team members, bagging all those ingredients up into food that I knew solved all of the customer problems that I had surfaced to myself but also in friends and family, and started delivering across New York City and really trying to see if I was solving problems for people other than myself. And it turned out I was. And I'd quit my job and dove in head first.Stephanie:That is amazing. So were you personally delivering a lot of this items in the beginning?Rachel:I was delivering everything.Stephanie:Oh gosh. Any crazy stories of the delivery days?Rachel:Yeah. So I was nine months pregnant towards the end of the bootstrap MVP period. And I could no longer get behind the wheel of my car. But I had a 16-year-old nephew who could drive with an adult.Stephanie:Oh my gosh, getting his permit hours with you?Rachel:Yes, yes. It was ridiculous. So I would pick him up. I would pay him like $15 an hour to drive around and hop in and out. And I would sit in the car like a beached whale. And he would run these boxes up to people's apartments. And I would be like, "Nope, can't give us a ticket. I'm in here."Stephanie:And I'm pregnant. So even more of a reason. Don't try. That's awesome. So then around that time, it looks like you were also... Was that when you were also raising money?Rachel:So I did raise money... well, so I'd raised a few rounds at this point. I actually tried to raise money for a Series C at that phase and it didn't go very well to be honest. People didn't really understand how I had this grandiose vision and I was delivering smoothies. They just couldn't connect the dots. And I guess it was too much of a leap for people. So I decided to bootstrap for as long as I possibly could. And when I say bootstrap, I think people assume you have money to burn. When I say scrappy, literally doing things like having my nephew deliver the food, and I created the website entirely by myself and the packaging and printed everything. There was no money spent to be clear.Rachel:And raised money officially right after I had my first child and decided I needed... I was kind of choking off growth and needed to take it from the MVP stage to something much bigger. And we launched nationally in 2016, which was almost like a year after that period, and then raised our Series A actually when I was pregnant with my second child, which was super fun.Stephanie:What kind of experience did you have being pregnant and raising money or trying to raise money? What happened during that? Because I know I have some personal experiences that maybe weren't always the most positive of people just being like, "How do you plan on running a business and you're pregnant?" Even now, knowing I have three kids, people saying, "How do you plan on running a business with three kids?" And what kind of stories do you have around that? Hopefully, I'll get one. So I'm interested to hear.Rachel:Yeah. I mean, the positive and the negative. The positive was that I had no time to worry about being pregnant. I was just like, "Oh, yeah, this is just happening and I'm going to keep moving." And I think a lot of people in that moment of life and in that phase kind of stew in the moment. And it was great. Nine months later or 10 months later, a baby popped out and I was like, "Moving on." And the negative is it's funny exactly as you just phrased it. The question that came up not actually as frequently as I thought it might, but once or twice, I definitely got the question, how do you plan to be a good mother and run a business? And I'm like, "Interesting question that I'm not going to justify with an answer. But if what you're trying to ask is if I'm 100% committed to making Daily Harvest successful, the answer is yes."Stephanie:Yep. That's great. That's a good way to do it like, "I'm not even going to answer that."Rachel:What a ridiculous question?Stephanie:Yeah. I always say like I could never imagine someone asking like, "Oh, man, how do you plan on still working if your kids are on the way?" I can do that.Rachel:Totally.Stephanie:So I saw you have some really impressive names as investors like Serena Williams, Gwyneth Paltrow. Tell me a little bit about how you got these investors on board.Rachel:Yes. So each one is kind of its own story, but Serena is my favorite because I got a random email from Alexis Ohanian who's now her husband, at the time was Serena's boyfriend. And he was like, "My girlfriend and I eat Daily Harvest every day. We would love to talk to you." I had no idea who his girlfriend was. And the next thing I knew, I was on the phone with Serena Williams like, "Wait, what?"Stephanie:Oh my gosh. That is actually insane. I mean, I wouldn't have known that either because I don't really know names and stuff like that. So how did the conversation go?Rachel:I had no idea. I mean, it was amazing. She's so cool and was incredibly down to earth. And she was just saying how Daily Harvest really helped her eat the way that she wanted to eat, the way that she needed to eat in a pinch. And she loved the idea. And this was super early on. And I was like, "First of all, how do you even know about us? But amazing." And she asked if she could invest. And I was like, "Let me think about this for a second. Yes, absolutely."Stephanie:Oh, that's great. Stephanie:So after you landed Serena, did other investors come along when you could kind of point to like, "I've got Serena Williams. You win her out." How did the other ones go?Rachel:I mean, it's funny. We weren't really public with it until much later. So we had other investors reach out to us with interest, but it had nothing to do with Serena. It really was people finding us in pretty organic ways. And people just getting excited about the idea and the concept and seeing the problem that I stated earlier in their own life and seeing that we don't have to compromise, we can have it all, at least with our food. So each story, as I said, is pretty unique. But they really all were people who found us, which was pretty remarkable.Stephanie:Yeah, that's great. I mean, that's a testament to the product. Very, very cool. So when thinking about new customers finding you in organic or non-organic ways, how are you getting in front of people right now? And I'm asking this question because I went on your guys's Pinterest, and I saw you have like 4 million views a month. And I was like, "What? How are they getting 4 million views on Pinterest?" So I want to hear a little bit about your customer acquisition and how you're getting in front of people.Rachel:Yes. So we have a really robust marketing mix. My background is marketing. So we always started with the goal of, how are we not beholden to any one channel? Right? Because I think that that's just asking for trouble. And we built it in a really nimble and agile way so that as trends and algorithms and all sorts of things change, that we can then be nimble as a result. And we're lucky that we have a really high amount of our customers come in through word of mouth. But we've also done a lot of things to make that easier, to remove the friction of people sharing when they have a positive Daily Harvest experience.Rachel:But there are other things that I think have made us stand out on... I mean, literally, you name a marketing channel, we are on it. There's nothing that's like secret saucy there. But I really think it comes down to our differentiated messaging and our differentiated photography and really focusing on connecting with universal human truths where people are just like, "Oh, you get me. Yep, I understand. I'm going to learn more."Stephanie:Oh, that's great. So tell me a little bit about that differentiated messaging that you're talking about? How do you go about figuring out what you want to message and how do you know what will connect and what won't? Because what you might think is going to be a universal truth, I might be like, "Oh, that's not my truth." How do you guys go about making sure you're speaking to your customer?Rachel:Absolutely. It definitely is trial and error to understand what works, but we obviously have a mission. So we're looking for customers with whom our mission resonates. And there's just a lot of different ways where when you remove your marketing hat and you're like, "How would a normal human say this?" Or, "What is the way of saying something that gets somebody to stop their scroll or perk their ears while listening to something that they might otherwise fast forward past?" And then it's the same thing on the visual side, really focusing on photography and imagery that's visually arresting and beautiful. And also stuff that looks delicious. You can't underestimate the salivation factor of... I don't know if that's a real thing.Stephanie:I like that. Now it needs to be.Rachel:It totally does. How much of a photograph actually makes you salivate? Because that's tied to how hungry it makes you and how much it makes you want something.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, pictures are everything. Even on your packaging and things like that, I mean, that's what makes me want to buy something, even when I'm on DoorDash or something, if an item doesn't have a picture on it, I'm like, "No, I'm not so sure if I want it," even if it sounds amazing. I want to see what it actually looks like. So it seems like you have very, very smart to have pictures on everything, especially Pinterest.Rachel:Yep. And because people have such short attention spans these days, and because there's so much media being thrown at you constantly, we also really focus on simplicity with it. So not only is it beautiful and drool-worthy, but it's also simplistic.Stephanie:That's great. So earlier, you mentioned also removing friction of having customers share their stories. How did you go about ensuring that a new customer or existing customer would share their stories and keep doing them?Rachel:Yeah. So what we have found is it's not so much about giving the customers places to share their thoughts and feelings. It's more about showing that you respond to them. So one of the things that we did really early on is we built a quite agile supply chain. And the goal of that was really to be able to respond to customer needs. We wanted to create a customer driven company. We had to be able to respond to customer needs. And it's one thing to have these amazing insights and to be innovative. And a lot of companies have the ability to do that. But if you can't respond in a timely manner, does it really matter? I'm not so sure.Rachel:So by showing customers, not just telling them, that we are actually listening to them and creating the food that they want to eat with them, and then connecting people with the food that was created for them, it sounds pretty simplistic. But there are really few companies that actually do it. So we're able to bring something to market in six to eight weeks from the time our customers tell us what they want. And I think that that is why customers love to share with us. And that is why we continue to be able to build these connections with our customers, those relationships.Stephanie:That's such a good point actually to show someone like you're not just submitting something into a black box and nothing's ever happening. What does the process look like? Where are they submitting their feedback? And then how do you interact with them in a way that is one on one, but then also shows your entire customer or new customer base, "Here's what we did for this one customer?" What does that process look like from start to finish?Rachel:Yeah. I mean, literally any channel that you can think of, we've built a way to interact. So whether it is through our app, whether it is through text message, whether it is through social media, you name it, we've made the conversation two ways. And what's interesting about it is if you think back to the story I told you earlier where kind of faking it till you make it, I'm air quoting, which you obviously can't see, but you're faking it but kind of faking it.Rachel:In the early days, our way of talking to our customers was every single team member at Daily Harvest would follow the Daily Harvest hashtag and every single day, it was the expectation that they would scroll through. And when somebody wrote something about Daily Harvest, the team engaged. Every single person on the team was asked to engage. So everyone from an engineer who might not under normal circumstances have any interaction with a customer directly to somebody on our culinary team. And it depends on what the customer put out there. But if it was something like your app is X, Y, Z, then an engineer would jump in and say, "Hey, can you tell me more about that?" And really just empowering the team to forge those relationships and to have those conversations I think is really what started it from a team culture perspective.Rachel:And then as we've grown, we've built tools in this way that allow it to happen. [inaudible 00:20:08], obviously, not everybody is scrolling through every single Daily Harvest hashtag these days, but we've empowered everybody to really think about how we maintain our vision of being truly customer driven.Stephanie:I love that. I mean, that's such a good experience. It's so different than, of course, corporate culture where you're probably told you are not allowed to engage with someone who tweets at us, and it has to be approved by PR. And there's so many rules and stuff. A lot of us had been taught in the past like, "Just don't say anything." And I can imagine how great of a culture you build by saying, "Everyone get on there. Respond to these people. It's on you to actually keep our customers happy." That seems like a transformative environment.Rachel:Absolutely. And then you have it scaled too. People really are thinking customer first at all times.Stephanie:Yeah, that's really cool. So when it comes to product request, I mean, it seems like there'd be an area that could be like a leaderboard where people can vote on the next products they want and actually determine that. Is there anything like that that you have going on to kind of create more social engagement and also people having an input in the product that maybe they wouldn't have just tweeted at you and said like, I want to have more figs?" They might not have that idea on their own, but they would like to maybe vote on it?Rachel:Totally. Yeah. I mean, we have all sorts of engagement opportunities for customers. But the important thing to know is that none of our skews or collections at Daily Harvest are created to be generally accepted. So we really focus on what people want from the perspective of their taste affinities, which is really differentiated.Rachel:So if you think about traditional product cycles and product development tools, people will look at things like demographics, psychographics, household income, credit card swipe data, and all of these things that when you kind of zoom out really never made sense to me because I can tell you, my husband and I live in the same house. We have the same household income. We share credit cards. We have the same credit card swipe data, same education, we met in school. But when it comes down to it, he orders from a very different restaurant than where I order from at night when we order in. So we really try to focus on what taste preferences are. And we try to create food for specific groups of people that have similar taste preferences, so nothing that we create is meant for general consumption. And that's where it gets really nuanced and really differentiated.Rachel:So yes, we will say to people, "We're thinking about creating X, Y, Z, and we would love your input." We take that into consideration, but we also take into consideration that, "Who is actually answering that question and where they're coming from and what their taste preferences are." Because I might like something that is, let's say, filled with greens, and you might like something that has no garlic in it or whatever it is because you might be allergic to garlic. And we're not going to like the same thing. So why should we try to make food for both of us?Stephanie:I love that idea of making sure that you actually focus on your customers because I think it's very easy, especially with all these new B2C companies that are launching right now to get distracted and not remember like, "Who did you actually build this for? What is your customer base? And what are you trying to do in this world?" Instead of being like, "Oh, and this person wants more sugar added to the matcha. Okay, I didn't really want to add a bunch of sugar to it, but this person wants it." It's a good reminder to not get distracted.Rachel:Right. But if we do have a group of customers that tell us that they want that same matcha that's a bit sweeter, we can accommodate that. It's just we would never target the same food to... We would know who we're targeting what to.Stephanie:Yep, very cool. So I'm very interested in the partnerships that you have with farmers and what your supply chain looks like behind the scenes that you can make these really quick product pivots or new products coming out in like six-day weeks. So can you speak a little about, what did that look like forming those partnerships? And any hiccups that you experienced in the early days of trying to get that worked out?Rachel:Yeah. I mean, as I said, it started with Trader Joe's because every time we reached out to a farm, they were like, "Who are you? Can you guarantee this entire crop?" And I was like, "I don't know."Stephanie:They were asking you to guarantee whole crops for them?Rachel:I mean, sometimes you have to if you want to be in control of how sweet it is, what the nutrition level is, you really have to be. And that was the vision because the way that I always envisioned taking care of food was really at the systemic level. So really to make change, you have to go to that level of scale in your purchasing. And we're incredibly meticulous about the ingredients that we use and how we source them. We actually have an entire team that's dedicated to finding the best farms. And we have over 400 farms that we work with directly. So we set incredibly rigorous standards that ensure not only are our partners using regenerative practices in their farming, things like increasing biodiversity, improving the water cycle, using organic farming practices, strengthening the health and vitality of our farm soil, using fair labor practices.Rachel:But we also are really particular about when we harvest our food. We want to make sure that the fig or the blueberry that you're eating is unparalleled not only from a nutrition perspective, but also from a taste perspective. So that means that we have to let every single ingredient reach its full nutritional and flavor potential on the vine or on the tree. And then we freeze everything within 24 hours of it being picked, which is really differentiated. And because of that rigor, our food is actually more nutritious than the stuff that you buy in the grocery store, which is something that a lot of people are surprised to hear. I think a lot of people see frozen as not as nutritious or inferior, when in fact, unless you are picking something straight from the farm and consuming it within three days, that's just not the case.Rachel:And we work with these farmers to also create entirely new supply chains, which is amazing. Our customers told us that they really wanted something with celery root last fall. And we worked with the farmer to create an entire supply chain of frozen celery root that had never existed before. And what's cool about a frozen supply chain is there's actually 50% less food waste and there's just so many benefits to the system overall. But we really think a lot about how we create the most nourishing, best tasting food and it really all comes back to those farm relationships.Stephanie:Wow, that's really cool. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people like you said don't understand the frozen aspect of why it's better because I know a while back, I heard that about fish too. But it's better to have frozen fish that's frozen right away when it's caught than getting something fresh. Fresh feels like it's healthier but actually it's more nutritional if you get the frozen one that was frozen right on the ship or boat or whatever it is.Rachel:When you think about the frozen aisle in the grocery store, most people associate it with like dinosaur shaped chicken nuggets.Stephanie:Yes, which may or may not be in my freezer right now.Rachel:I don't judge. When you ask most people what's in their freezer, it's like ice cream and vodka and ice cubes. I'm like, "These are not bad things, but it just shows you how the food system has evolved." And the microwave dinner was created not because it was healthy. It was because it was convenient and it was because it was created during this Industrial Revolution when food and science melded together in ways that is just so unnatural and we kind of just stayed there. So I think there's been a lot of... not I think. There's been a lot of education for customers to help them understand the benefits of frozen not only for themselves, not only for their taste buds, but also for the food system as a whole.Stephanie:Got it, that's great. So the one thing I'm thinking about too is working with farms, I can see them being on older tech stacks I'll call them or no tech stacks.Rachel:What tech stacks?Stephanie:Yeah. I'll just say non-existent tech stacks maybe unless they're like the very advanced farm with the drones going on.Rachel:No, [crosstalk 00:29:55].Stephanie:You're working with 400 farms. How are you placing these orders and getting things to happen quickly and making sure that it's up to your standards and that nothing's going to get backed up? How do you do that with farms that don't have a tech stack?Rachel:I mean, we built the technology for it.Stephanie:Tell me a bit about that. What did that process look like?Rachel:Yeah. So in the beginning, we only had a few farms, and it was easier to manage. But obviously, once you hit a certain scale, it becomes a little unwieldy and it's not just 400 farms. There's four crops a year and different ingredients. One farm might have six ingredients that they're growing for us. So it can get really complicated. But as I said, we have a large team that really focuses on this, and they're incredibly passionate. So what we did is we thought about how technology could make their job easier, how we can leverage technology to remove some of the friction in managing the quality of our food and the supply chain in general. And we really built a verification system that... I would say a trust but verify system where we set certain quality standards. Because we can't [inaudible] people who are on site at every farm with every harvest, and then there's like a verification system where they're sending us samples constantly to make sure that that everything is as we say it needs to be. And we're verifying nutrition after something is frozen to make sure that it's as it's supposed to be. And through every step, we are trusting and verifying. And all of that is rigorously notated in our technology stack.Stephanie:That's really cool. So it seems like you're bringing a lot of farmers online. Have they asked to reuse the technology with other partners too? They could be a whole separate business like, "Here's technology that you can now have with anyone else ordering from you."Rachel:Totally. I mean, we work with a lot of small farmers. So a lot of farmers don't have a lot of other business. We've really grown to a scale where most of our farmers are Daily Harvest farmers.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Oh, cool.Rachel:Really cool when you think about it. But yeah. I mean, we've definitely had people ask, but we've got to focus on our core competencies and what we're trying to achieve.Stephanie:Yep. That's great. So everyone's obviously looking into subscription businesses right now. It's always top of mind like, "Should this business be a subscription or not?" Everyone wants one. How do you think about retaining your customers and enticing them to stay with you for the long haul?Rachel:Yeah. So one thing that's interesting about Daily Harvest is on the outside, we kind of look like a subscription, but we're actually not a subscription. We're really what we call a replenishment business because once you sign up for Daily Harvest, our goal is to make sure that your freezer is always stocked. And it's not because that's good for us, it's because that's how we make sure that you have the food that you want when you want it. At that moment when you're hangry, when you're reaching for that bar, you need to have the right food in your freezer. Otherwise, you're going to make a different choice, right?Rachel:So we think a lot about what that replenishment looks like. And we also never want you to get an order of Daily Harvest that you don't want. Right? So we actually communicate with our customers ad nauseum to make sure that we're never sending them anything that they don't want, and they're only getting food when they do want it. And that's what makes us different from a subscription business where you have to consume your food or use your razor or whatever it is within a specific period of time and it's only good for that period of time. Because we're frozen, we're really not perishable, which is a huge benefit and allows us to be even more customer centric, but really thinking about maintaining our customer base.Rachel:Removing friction for our customers and making things as easy as possible for them, making their account as easy as possible to manage making sure that they're getting the food that they want when they want it. And we found that there's a direct correlation between removing that friction, being customer driven. We don't even think about about retention. We think about how can we be more customer driven? How can we get our customers exactly what they want? And what we found is that those things correlate really nicely.Stephanie:Yeah, I completely agree. So what does that back end account management look like for your customers? And one thing that's coming to mind is like the past couple interviews I've done, we've touched on one click ordering and how that's a big thing that a lot of people are expecting now. And I could see that maybe coming into play for you guys too where you're more about replenishing items. If I'm out of my matcha, or smoothie, or whatever it was that I really just enjoyed, going on to my account and just ordering that, and not having to have minimums or anything. Just being like, "That's what I want," and just doing it one off. How do you guys have the back end working?Rachel:Yeah. So we don't do that. And the reason why is because we really think of ourselves, as I said, as replenishment. So our customer behavior is much more going to shop at Costco, let's say. You don't go to Costco to buy one thing. It's never worth a shot.Stephanie:I need 10 pounds of butter when I go there.Rachel:Totally. But you have certain things that you go and you buy a lot of. So our customer really thinks about, how can Daily Harvest fill my entire freezer? When your inventory at home starts to dwindle, that's when you make your next purchase. So for us, one click ordering is not a thing. And we find that actually there's tension between how much cognitive load you reduce and how much customer friction you reduce, and people really getting the food that they want. So there's definitely a balance there. But what we do instead is we have an app and our app is incredibly customer driven. And it's about communication with our customers and making sure that, as I said, they're getting the food that they want when they want it. But it's definitely as easy as humanly possible, but not so easy that you're going to get something that you don't want.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's great. Yeah. And I think that's a really good reminder, too, that everyone might be obsessed with a subscription model because that is good for businesses to lock people in. But that might actually leave a bad taste in a customer's mouth. And your model is completely different, which is like focus on what they want and what they need and make it easy for them to order and refill quickly without having to come back a thousand times.Rachel:Yep. And make it as easy as possible honestly for them to pause and cancel and do all the things they want to do because when you do that, they come back.Stephanie:Yep. I love that. Low friction, it's worth it. So to go to little more general commerce questions, what kind of disruptions do you see coming to commerce right now maybe in the next couple years?Rachel:I mean, look, I think COVID has been... it's been an interesting few months. But what it has done is it's really accelerated a bunch of trends that we've seen. And we've seen this huge adoption of ecommerce and people's willingness to stick around once they've tried it. So as you had early adopters previously who were signing up for food delivery or whatever it may be delivered to their home, what we're seeing now is people who are not early adopters, so more of the mainstream signing up. And there are different needs, and there's a different level of education, and there's all sorts of nuance to take into account with that trend. So we're thinking a lot about that, how we continue to remove friction for this different type of customer.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's really great. So we have a couple minutes left and I want to jump over to the lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Rachel?Rachel:No.Stephanie:Prepare yourself to get some deep breaths. Get in the game. All right. We'll start with the easier ones first. What's Up next on your Netflix queue?Rachel:Oh, wait. I can't remember what it was called. It's The Man and the Company Castle. Hold on.Stephanie:Oh, that Amazon? The Man in the High Castle?Rachel:Yes. Not Netflix.Stephanie:That's okay. Yeah. Have you started it yet or?Rachel:I haven't but I am such a history nerd. And I don't know how I missed that this show existed, but I cannot tell you how excited I am to watch it.Stephanie:Yeah, it's very good.Rachel:Yeah. And I also feel like there's something about current state of affairs and dystopian society is that it really resonates. So let's see what it's got for us.Stephanie:Yeah. I mean, I like that one a lot. I think it's a good reminder I'm always very biased and ask about Netflix but Amazon, they've got some good stuff. I mean, I've binge-watched I think it was like Marvelous Mrs. Maisel if you knew to balance yourself out of it from dystopian to fun and cute. Also a very good series that I loved.Rachel:That show is amazing.Stephanie:Oh, you like it too? Yeah. It always leaves me with the happy feeling like, "Oh, this is cute. I love this."Rachel:All the time that I remind them of Rachel Brosnahan, and I'm like, "That is a huge compliment. Thank you."Stephanie:That is. She's awesome. Good. What's up next on your reading list? And it can be business or personal.Rachel:So it's Never Split the Difference which I've actually read before, but I like to read it every few years because I think it's the best negotiator out there and I'm not a natural negotiator. But it's obviously a huge part of my job. So it's coming up on time to read it once more.Stephanie:That's great. What is one thing that comes to mind when you think about that book? One lesson or principle where you're like, "Yeah, I'm not going to split the difference?" Anything high level other than what I just said which is just jacking the title.Rachel:So my favorite takeaway from the book, and it's just a reminder, it's really about listening. It's funny. I think a lot about toddler psychology these days because I have a three-year-old and a five-year-old. And there's a lot in common with the tactics in this book and toddler psychology, but it's really about validating people's emotions and feelings and creating trust and safety to be able to negotiate better.Stephanie:Oh, that's good. I like that. It shows that so many things are similar in life. Dealing with toddlers is the same thing as negotiating for your salary or investment money. Same thing.Rachel:It really is. It's crazy.Stephanie:I have to check that one out. What app or a piece of tech are you using right now that's making you more efficient in your life?Rachel:Okay. So this is such a weird one, but my husband just introduced me to the app for my cable provider. And I had no idea that this existed. I never watched TV ever. But given that we're in day three of the sit and wait for the results of our election, I've been able to just pop it up and have the news on live stream behind me. And it's been incredible because previously, I was refreshing my Twitter feed every 20 minutes or whatever it was. But just kind of having it in live feed behind me has been a huge unlock for my efficiency in this crazy time.Stephanie:That's great. I haven't even thought about apps from cable providers. So it's a good reminder for everyone. I like that.Rachel:It never occurred to me that one would even exist, and I'm very happy with it.Stephanie:That's great. What's one thing that you wish you knew more about? It could be a topic, a trend, a theme, anything.Rachel:Let's see. I really wish I knew more about human psychology. I feel like every time I read something or learn more, I get really excited and I want to dive in more but I really never have time to. And it's something that I feel would make me better at what I do every day if I really understood the psychology behind it.Stephanie:That's a good one. Yeah, I completely agree about that. Something I always want to dive into more and haven't had the time yet. So Rachel, this has been such a fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and Daily Harvest?Rachel:At dailyharvest.com.Stephanie:Awesome. Thanks so much for coming on the show.Rachel:Thanks for having me.

What does kidnapping have to do with ballroom dancing? The answer is: Nothing! However, this week’s movie manages to take all sorts of seemingly disparate concepts and fuse them together for one kooky caper. INSPECTOR MOM: KIDNAPPED IN TEN EASY STEPS (2007), starring Danica McKellar, Drew Waters, and Lar Park-Lincoln, is just the light fare needed after such an excruciating and traumatic year. You may even learn some fractions in the process! We also discuss piñatas, our favorite Simpsons quotes, and accidentally create a children’s book concept that may be mistaken for a porno. Additionally: Who is YOUR mustard? And does anyone know what the schizophrenic said to Rachel? It doesn’t matter if you have two left feet because it only takes one step to listen to this episode! Note: For reference, this episode was recorded the day before the election. This movie is available to view on the Lifetime Movie Club app. Support the show (https://patreon.com/lifewinepodcast)

1. brag about sth 吹嘘 Monica在给Chanlder做按摩之前说I don't want to brag about it. 我可不是吹牛。Brag about sth = boast about sth 炫耀某事，吹嘘某事He bragged to his friends about the crime. 他向朋友炫耀他的罪行Monica: Y'know, I don't like to brag about it, but I give the best massages!Chandler: All right, then massage me up right nice!2. clothes horse 晾衣架，衣着讲究的人 Joey在向Chandler和Ross解释自己的角色时说他理解这个角色是一个real clothes horse. Clothes horse 本意是晾衣架，也可以指对衣着特别在意，特别讲究的人。Ross: (glaring at Joey) This would be the place where you explain the hat.Joey: Oh! Yeah, look there's this play all right? And I'm up for the part of this real cool like suave international guy. A real clothes horse. So I figure that everyone at the audition is gonna be wearing this kinda y'know, ultra-hip, high fashion stuff.Chandler: And you're gonna make them all disappear.3. unisex 男女通用的 Friends剧集里超经典的笑点，Rachel说Joey的包是unisex 男女通用的, 不分性别的 Joey听成了you need sex.Joey: Really? A purse?Rachel: It's not a purse! It's a shoulder bag.Joey: It looks like a women's purse.Rachel: No Joey, look. Trust me, all the men are wearing them in the spring catalog. Look. See look, men, carrying the bag.Joey: See look, women, carrying the bag. (He puts it on his shoulder and looks at himself in the mirror and likes what he sees.) But it is odd how a women's purse looks good on me, a man.Rachel: Exactly! Unisex!Joey: Maybe you need sex. I had sex a couple days ago.Rachel: No! No Joey! U-N-I-sex.Joey: Well, I ain't gonna say no to that.4. rip sth off 拧下来，敲竹杠 Phoebe见到了多年前抛弃自己的父亲当然很生气，生气到想 rip his tiny little head offRip sth off 拧下来 rip sb off 敲某人的竹杠rip-off 仿制品，冒牌货Phoebe: All right, I'd better go too. I have to go talk to my dad.Rachel: Ooh, Pheebs, what are you gonna say? Are you gonna tell him who you are?Phoebe: Umm, no, not at first 'cause I-I don't want to freak him outRoss: Well, but aren't you pissed at him?! I mean this guy abandoned you! I gotta tell you if this were me, this guy would be in some serious physical danger! (Getting worked up) I mean I-I-I'd walk in there and I'd be like, "Yo, dad! You and me outside right now!" (Calming down.) I kinda scared myself.Monica: Well, at least you scared someone.Phoebe: Y'know it's funny, you'd think I'd be angry. I mean, you'd think I'd wanna rip his tiny little head off. Fortunately, I'm past it.Monica: Phoebe, you do seem a little tense. Here, let me help you.Phoebe: All right.5. I am past it 我释怀了 还是在Phoebe关于父亲的对话中，虽然他对父亲有仇恨，但现在past itI am past it = I am over it. 我释怀了6. neither here nor there 非此非彼，文不对题 Phoebe跟多年从未谋面的父亲摊牌说自己是他女儿，父亲傻在那里只说了you are so pretty. Phoebe回应道That is neither here nor there. neither here nor there 既非此也非彼，文不对题，哪儿和哪儿都不挨着一本著名的欧洲旅行笔记叫做Neither Here Nor There, 翻译做《东西摸遍逛欧洲》。Frank Sr.: Phoebe, I-I-I-umm, (Sits down next to her and brushes against her leg.) Oops. (He backs up.) I just, I-I-I-I don't, I don't know what to say. I just can't believe that you're my daughter, you're so pretty.Phoebe: Yes. Well, that's neither here nor there.7. in one's defense 从某人的角度辩解一下 Phoebe的父亲为自己抛弃妻女行为辩解的时候用了in my denfense. In one's defense 从某人的角度辩解一下。In my denfense, I did not see you, so I bumped into you.Phoebe: Y'know what, it doesn't matter what you say it's not gonna make a difference anyway, so you can just go.Frank Sr.: All right. Well, y'know in my defense I was a lousy father.Phoebe: That's a defense?Frank Sr.: Yes. Yes it is. I burned the formula and I put your diapers on backwards. I mean, I made up a song to sing you to sleep, but that made you cry even more!Phoebe: You make up songs?Frank Sr.: Well no, just-just that one. But, it was stupid. Let's see, how did it, how did it go. Umm. (Singing.)Sleepy girl, sleepy girl.Why won't you go to sleep?Sleepy girl, sleepy girl.You're, you're, you're keeping me uppp!

Brand loyalty is something that every company wants but few actually attain. To build a loyal customer base, you need to provide the best experiences possible, offer unique products or services, and deliver on quality and in a timely fashion. It’s a tough ask, and for those in the grocery industry, it’s even more difficult since differentiation between product selection is not as easy as it might be in other verticals.  But when it comes to customer loyalty, there are ways to separate yourself from the pack.  And that’s where Rachel Stephens comes in. As the Vice President of Marketing, Digital and Loyalty for Stop & Shop, a major grocery chain with more than 400 stores, she thinks about this every day. Thanks to a new online platform and through a loyalty program that customers actually want to engage in, Rachel explains that Stop & Shop is finally gaining access to some of the dark data it couldn’t access in the past.  On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Rachel explains why that kind of data is a true game-changer for any brand. Plus she reveals some of the consumer psychology that she looks at when building loyalty programs, and she peers into the future at how the use of A.I., machine learning and natural language processing will further advance not just Stop & Shop’s ecommerce experience, but the entire ecommerce industry. Main Takeaways: Is it Actually on the Grocery List?: When building or improving loyalty programs, having an understanding of data is critical. Everyone has to take on the role of data scientist and look at the data analytically, especially as it relates to consumer behavior. Just because a customer says they want something or they intend to make a purchase, does not mean the data will always show that. Word for advice: trust the data and build a program around what is actually happening instead of what customers are saying.   Accessing Dark Data: For too long, grocery stores have asked only for customer phone numbers in order for them to have access to loyalty cards. But if that phone number isn’t linked to a real name or address, and is changing hands faster than an email address would, there is a huge amount of data left in the dark, which makes it impossible to build a meaningful database of customer information. To access that critical data, companies need to build programs that are truly enticing that customers want to share their data with that helps not only the brand but also the consumer. The Psychology of a Discount: Tune in to hear what Rachel saw in the data when reviewing their sales and discounts. Hint: higher is not always better. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, I'm your host Stephanie Postals, co-founder of Mission.org. Today we have Rachel Stevens on the show, vice president of marketing, digital and loyalty at Stop & Shop. Rachel, welcome. Rachel: Thank you very much for having me. Stephanie: Yeah, I'm really excited to have you on. I saw a little bit of your background before hopping on here and I got very excited when I saw that you have worked at the TJX companies, which I was hoping we could start there with your background. Rachel: Are you a brand fan? Stephanie: Oh, yes. I mean, I love TJ Maxx and when I saw that I'm like, "Ooh, this is my interview. This is the one." Rachel: Yeah, I was actually the assistant vice president of CRM Loyalty [inaudible] within TJX. And that really matched the TJX rewards program ... was a program that fell under my group and my responsibilities included the day to days and ensuring that our customers really wanted to participate in our program, our loyalty program so that we had clean data at the end of the day. And we were able to provide additional value in savings on top of what customers were already saving with the strong value that TJX stores provide. Stephanie: Very cool. How did you first get interested in the world of loyalty marketing, what lead you there? Rachel: I started actually in loyalty marketing at Pet Smart in their corporate headquarters in Phoenix and I think the thing that really appealed to me was marriage of data and customer communications, so understanding what customers say and what customers actually do is vital, I think, to the success of an organization because customers can say, "Yes, I have intent to purchase X,Y,Z." But when you look at the actual data, the data doesn't lie. Rachel: So, loyalty programs give you a vital tool for success within your organization to take a look at consumer data and then apply your marketing tactics really that are from acquisition, retention or reactivation perspective based on what that consumer is doing in a particular moment. So it's really, to me, such a great marriage of a lot of different areas within marketing and it just was something that I developed an immediate passion for. When I started there on the Pet Perks Program and then went to TJX to work on the loyalty program for TJ Maxx, Marshalls, Home Goods, [inaudible] Trading Post, and HomeSense, I feel like when I was there honed in on my skills within the loyalty space, so the position at Stop & Shop to really develop the role and develop what the new program was going to look like was incredibly appealing just because of my passion for this space and for retail. Stephanie: That's so much good experience to be able to bring to Stop & Shop. How have you seen consumer behaviors or loyalty programs having to change since you started? Rachel: Since I started in loyalty or since I started at Stop & Shop? Stephanie: I'd say in loyalty program, in loyalty overall. Since you started back in the pets days. Rachel: Yeah, I think there was a transactional nature to loyalty programs in the past. I think it was you give and get and that was usually based in points programs whereas today obviously I think more experiential programs have come about and providing more omni-channel experience, which wasn't really the case back when I first started within the loyalty space. I'd say that there's a number of people that really do a great job at this. I think Sephora's loyalty program is top notch. They do an excellent job at marrying the in-store and the online experience, really making it truly omni-channel tied in with their loyalty program. Rachel: I think that a lot of retailers have caught up and are doing a good job and I still think there's a lot of room to grow. And I think grocery retail was stuck in the loyalty stage of two tier pricing and I think we have a to model grocery loyalty programs more after what a lot of other retailers are doing in the loyalty space and even hotels. Airlines, I think that soft benefits and providing experiential benefits are really critical to the success of a program. Stephanie: Yep, yeah completely agree. Now that we're touching on grocery a bit I would love for you to explain what Stop & Shop is for anyone who doesn't know. Rachel: Sure, Stop & Shop is actually a grocery retailer with over 100 years in the industry. It started out as a very small grocery in the east coast and now we have over 400 stores and of course our online experience at Stop&Shop.com and the Stop & Shop app. Stephanie: That's great. And Stop & Shop, you guys just started moving into e-commerce, right? I think I saw that you launched a new platform just in a couple months ago, am I right? Rachel: We did actually, on July 28th in fact. We launched ... we had Peapod with a partner company. Peapod actually was owned by Ahold Delhaize, which is the parent company that owns Stop & Shop and we have integrated Peapod into Stop & Shop now. So, within Stop & Shop's footprint to order grocery delivery or to get pickup you actually now go to the Stop & Shop website or the Stop & Shop app versus Peapod. That integration occurred again at the end of July, and it's been going incredibly well so far. Stephanie: What was that transition ... what did that look like behind the scenes of not only integrating a current path that people are using but also I'm sure adding on additional functionalities that maybe weren't already there. What was the process behind the scenes or any maybe hiccups that you guys experienced when you were going through all this because it sounds like a big project. Rachel: Yes, yes. In fact, huge project. And all of our sister brands went through the same scope of work at the same time. We work with an internal agency who actually is responsible for all of that development work. And the agency actually had to develop the platform for all the brands. There was Giant Martin's out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania and Giant Foods in Maryland, also went through the same transition. Rachel: And there was obviously ... it requires a lot of work to marry the database, really marry those platforms. There was a Stop & Shop website, a Peapod website and H Brands app, so marrying those together was a huge, enormous undertaking that has taken approximately two years. And when I first started two and a half years ago actually that was really when we had worked on all the business requirements for this project. And it just takes a significant amount of time to match up all the data on our customers and combine those platforms and ensure that everything is running smoothly because if you think about the number of transactions that the Peapod site had going through it before and the number of customers that were going to the Stop & Shop site, you can imagine that there's just a tremendous amount of customers that we wanted to ensure were not left behind in this transition. Rachel: So, there's definitely a lot of work that went into this project and in terms of hiccups, of course there was a lot of those. But I think you try and block out all of the things that went wrong during the launch and you just only remember the good, right? Stephanie: Yep, that's great. And I'm also very familiar with Giant. I'm from Maryland. I'm sure everyone else is like, "What's that?" I know very well what that is. Rachel: Oh, great. That's great. Stephanie: Yeah, so when you guys are thinking about launching this new e-commerce platform, what kind of opportunities were you excited that it would open up? I'm sure you get access to new kind of data and you can have new offerings and you can send that data maybe to your other partners and maybe they can give you deals. What things were you most excited about that you didn't have access to before? Rachel: I think that what I'm most excited about is omni-channel data access. We did not, again, have that before because it was Peapod who really had all of the data for delivery and pickup and Stop & Shop who had all the brick & mortar data. The combination and looking at a consumer from an omni-channel, to me, is what's most exciting. Rachel: If I'm going to do a marketing campaign using digital tactics or any sort of in-store tactics I really need to know what you do as a customer. You could channel switch, you could go from pick-up to in-store to delivery all within a very short period of time. And so, I think the efficiency in marketing, by having that data to me is really what's most exciting. And being able to actually accurately talk to our customers is something that really interests me because how many time have you received communications from a company where you're like, "Wait, I was just in there. I just bought X, Y, Z and now they're sending me an offer for something," or the communication just seems out of left field. Rachel: And I think of years past when Starbucks didn't have a fully integrated data solution. If I was a coffee drinker and I always drank coffee once in a while I'd get tea offers and it just didn't make any sense to me. I think it was just bad use of data. Stephanie: Yeah, I still get that right now. I'll get things marketed to me around pregnancy. I'm like, "I am not pregnant and haven't been for a while." Rachel: You're not pregnant. Stephanie: In a while. Come on, about six months ago, stop that. Rachel: Right, exactly. Stephanie: That's smart. So, what are you excited for omni-channel in general outside of Stop & Shop. What do you think that landscape's going to look like in the next couple of years? Rachel: I think that COVID has certainly advanced a lot of, specifically in retail, advanced a lot of retailers. I think their technology and their offerings, I think omni-channel, to me, has to be that seamless experience in-store, online. And it has to be being able to look at you from a customer lens and understanding that you may channel switch and your experience or the offers that you're given or you're customer service shouldn't change. There shouldn't everybody anything remarkably different about whatever channel you're in. Rachel: So, for me I think that the omni-channel landscape is going to continue improving and COVID has definitely advanced that. Stephanie: To dive back into the loyalty program conversation, because I'm very interested in that, we haven't had a ton of people on the show who've talked about that, so I'll probably keep circling around that for a little bit. Rachel: Sure. Stephanie: I want to hear how you think about developing a successful loyalty program now. How do you get people to engage? How do you get them to be excited about it? Rachel: The most important thing is research. You have to understand what customers want first and foremost of course. That's the first step in any real loyalty program whether you're launching a loyalty program or enhancing a loyalty program or just completely transforming a loyalty program. You have to understand what research, what customers want. You have to look at the data and understand what they actually do. Rachel: So, it's the this is what I say I want and then this is what I actually do. And you rally have to be a data scientist and understand what it is that is bubbling to the top. If I know my to customers are coming in and I'm looking at the data that tells me they come in X amount of times per week and they shop for key products, then I can understand and I can translate that back into transactional offers. I can say, "Okay, these are the top products that I need to make sure are relevant to that consumer base on a regular basis." Rachel: But it doesn't get at really what drives them and motivates them to be loyal to the brand. So, I think that that research is such a critical step in really understanding how consumers really feel about your brand. You don't want to be the brand that customers just feel like you're on the corner and you're convenient so they have to shop you. You want to be the brand that they want to shop at. Loyalty isn't just about the program, it has to be about the total solution that retailer provides and your feelings about that retailer. Stephanie: It seems like there would be a lot dark data out there, especially for maybe grocery stores because I'm thinking, would my local grocery store even know that I go in and out because I don't interact with them online right now. I sometimes put my phone number in, sometimes don't. How would you make sure you have a good sample size of people to use for your research when building that out if maybe you still have quite a few of your customers that you don't even know yet. Rachel: No, I think that's a great question. I think you have to ... There are panels that you can go, usually your consumer insights team has access to panels of customers who volunteer to participate in research studies, so that's typically the first place that I go if we don't have enough data within the database. If there's enough data in the database to start with, usually that does require an e-mail address or a physical mailing address and not just phone number. Rachel: So, if your local grocery store only requires phone number and ... I'll say actually that was the case for Stop & Shop prior to the transformation of our new loyalty program where we really just ask for phone number point of sale. And that gave customers access to that two tier pricing. That doesn't do anything for a company, just having phone numbers and actually going to build off your database of course. Then you don't have a way to really round out that customer experience and understand. You got to be able to tap into that customer and ask them what they want. Rachel: It is really important that you're coming up with a program or if you have a program that it's enticing enough that customers want to give their data, they want to give you the right e-mail address or they want to give you the right mailing address so that they do participate in the program but they also are willing to give your opinion when you ask it. Stephanie: Yep. It also seems like making sure you have a seamless experience when asking for that data is really important because I can think of a number of times different stores have been like, "Oh, can you type in your e-mail?" Or just, "Read it off to me and I'll type it in very slowly." I'm like, "Ugh, just don't worry about it," or "I don't want to use your old type pad that's not really working and I'm going to have to delete it 10 times to get it right." Rachel: Right, exactly. Yeah, you're absolutely right it has to be simple, seamless. I think digital cards is a great way to make it simple and seamless. It's easy enough for a POS to scan a digital barcode that ties back to your loyalty card or phone number, provided the fact that the number actually is tied to a valid e-mail address or valid mailing address. Any way that you can provide convenience for consumers to access their program seamlessly, quickly is really important. Stephanie: Yeah, I completely agree. When you're setting this up, even If you don't have access to maybe huge amounts of data, are there any unifying themes that people just generally when it comes to loyalty or rewards programs where you're like, no matter where I've been it seems to always get someone to sign up if we have this or this offering. Rachel: Well, I think a based program, it has to be about savings, right? Every program is at it's core about saving, so hotel, airline, you're earning points to get free something or to save on something. And so, at it's core you have to have a savings in the value proposition. And then I think everything else that goes on top of that whether you have a tiered program where you're providing your top tier customers with more of those experiential benefits or more of those softer benefits is really, it's dependent on the industry and your ability to provide different levels of benefits to customers. Rachel: I think in the supermarket industry you don't see a lot of tiered programs. I think that that's mostly because there's not a lot of experiential benefits that you can provide that consumers really are interested in. I think a lot of customers look at grocery shopping as a chore. There are, there's certainly a core of customers who really enjoy it but for the most part a lot busy consumers today do look at it as a chore and I think that lingering in a store is not something that a lot of people are really interested in. Stephanie: Yep, yeah I completely agree. Is there any research that y'all have done when to what really matters from a savings perspective? What percent actually drives someone to purchase something they maybe wouldn't have purchased prior to seeing that savings? Maybe 5% eh, maybe not, 20% probably so. Anything that you've seen around that? Rachel: It's funny that the higher up you go in savings, a lot of times customers say they don't believe that. When you say save 20% or 25% or whatever, it seems somewhat unbelievable and I think a lot of customers question it. With our go rewards program we actually know that customers saved 15% or more. We did a lot of research because the and more was actually the savings is more like an average of 20% but customers really felt like, "That seems high, that seems really unbelievable." So, 15% we're like okay, let's just actually take that down because that seemed to be more palatable percent for customers for some reason. Stephanie: That's really interesting. Rachel: Isn't it? Stephanie: I know. I mean, when you see these shopping sites when it's like 75% off it actually makes you just one be like, "Well, was it ever worth the price that you listed it at?" And then are you going to get a 90% off. So I do question brands that have huge sales like that more than I do with someone who's consistently like, "You get 15 or 20% off no matter what promo code or coupon or anything that you get, it's never going to be higher than that. Rachel: Right, yeah. You start to question the quality and you say, "Oh, geez." I mean I'm sure the average consumer doesn't think in terms of margin but I start thinking about margin. Stephanie: I do too. Like minds, very like minds. [crosstalk 00:22:05]. "How much were you making before this?" Okay. Rachel: Exactly. Stephanie: That's great. How do you think about metrics when it comes to these loyalty programs. Are they unique and very different than maybe metrics for other e-commerce business or other programs that you might set up? Rachel: Well, I think first and foremost most companies will look at sales as a huge metric within their loyalty program because it's an investment for the organizations, so ROI is going to be important. But the ROI actually comes from retention and in some cases reactivation. You know that a lot of times it's true, the cost of getting a customer is equivalent to retaining eight. Rachel: So, I think if you can look at ... most organizations look at sales from the program and incremental sales from the program. I think that that is the real true metric. Engagement of course is also important. And customer satisfaction is vital. Stephanie: Yep, that makes sense. Are there any memorable campaigns that come to mind. You're like, this one was my favorite marketing or any other kind of campaign hat I've done that you want to share? I'm always interested in stories around that. Rachel: Yeah, no I think that I worked on so many great campaigns but the ones that are truly, fully integrated across every channel is that's what's really exciting. When you see a campaign, for example right now this might sound silly or small but we have this pizza campaign. We've got a commercial on air about the best pizza is your own pizza and we've got that campaign in every other channel, so digital, e-mail, social media, through my go rewards program, we throw in extra points when you buy certain products within the category. That's really what excites me is I think when you see it come to life and you see really the full ecosystem within marketing utilized to support something. That's when you really see the power of marketing come to life and you see how it actually makes sense obviously to have one point of view and to be more customer centric in your campaigns. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And it's like a better way to measure things as well if there's this one initiative going across many channels and you can look at it without having a bunch of other players messing the data up. Rachel: Right, right, exactly, exactly. I see some marketing campaigns right now and [inaudible] there's some big players out there that did all of these back to school campaigns and it drove me nuts because it's like we are not back in and it showed all the kids walking down the hall and of course I know that they had all these commercials shot in the can well before a lot of this happened but I feel like you're talking to a consumer base that is in a very different place right now. I think that obviously understanding what consumers are looking for and really being relevant like that pizza campaign. There's so many people who are at home cooking together right now. I feel like that's really where I get most excited is when I see obviously that relevance and then more of that omni-channel and cross channel campaign. I think that that's really where you see some good results from marketing. Stephanie: Yeah, that's as good point about people still running their commercials that they maybe shot a long time ago. The only one that I think has done really well in my mind that I've seen recently is either Trader Joe's or Target that had grab your back to school supplies and it was at a line rack. I'm like, "That's good, that's relevant and I'm going to get some [inaudible] now." Rachel: That's perfect. Stephanie: Yeah, really good. We had someone on this show who was also mentioning you should have different scenarios, especially at a time right now where you don't really know what's going to happen and you should be ready to pull your campaigns and slot something in really quickly. And it seems like a lot of larger brands or especially older brands just didn't think that way or maybe just thought, "Okay, let's just release this and see how it goes anyways." Why do you think that's the case? Why do they still put this out into the world when many of them probably knew it was not a good fit? Rachel: No, and I think it does more harm to your brand than anything to be honest because obviously if you're not relevant and you're not listening to what's going on in the world then I think that it does more home. At the beginning of COVID we did a lot of work around providing at-home solutions. We had a chef who actually did a cooking show within social media. I worked with this chef to come up with a series of cooking shows within Facebook and we did a number of other just activities to do with the kids at home and there was more relevance to our campaigns and it really resonated. Customers really appreciated the fact that we were giving them content that actually was valuable, interesting and just relevant to what was going on in the world. Rachel: You can't be deaf to what's happening and you have to really just make sure you're always paying attention and listening to what customers are saying. Stephanie: Yeah, completely agree. Earlier you were talking about the pizza campaign and how you put on many, many channels. Which channels are you finding are most successful or are there any new ones that you're experimenting with that you're finding some early success in. Rachel: I think that we do a lot within social media and I think that the channels in social media that we're finding some early success in would be Next Door and TikTok to some degree. I think with TikTok, youth are still clear we haven't done a whole lot there but I think that the brands that have been on TikTok and have done some really good work and have seen some great results. And I think the social media channels are probably the ones that give me the most excitement because I think there's such a great way. Rachel: We're working towards integrating commerce into social media. That's a big project that my team is working on right now and it's such a great way to capture an audience when they're just in their downtime. They're in a different kind of mindset and they're more open to maybe looking at inspirational content, recipes, things like that within Pinterest or within Facebook or Instagram. And they may want to buy it right then and there and they may want to say, "I want this recipe, I want it delivered to my house. This is great." So, I think that any of the campaigns that we've done in social have really been my favorites. Stephanie: You mentioned integrating commerce into social media. Are you all taking that initiative on yourself or are you more relying on the platforms to develop the solutions to tap into? What does that look like? Rachel: Yeah, we are relying on platforms. Obviously we have to, there's a lot of work that needs to be done still in this area. And I think that's a little trickier just for a supermarket because you're not going to buy just a tomato. Stephanie: [crosstalk] tomato from Stop & Shop. Rachel: Right, it's not like when you see a pair of shoes on Instagram and you have to have them. You don't really have to have that tomato on Instagram but you may want that full recipe so making sure that there's enough content that is actually worthwhile to the customer I think is the challenge and that's what my team is trying to figure out right now. Stephanie: Got it. When I'm thinking about commerce or social media, has Stop & Shop explored ... or maybe you guys already have this like your own products where it's like you can only get it from here. It's not a generic brand it's actually like ... I mean, that reminds me a lot of what Trader Joe's does. It's like if I want this one, well they discontinued this prune juice I really loved. [inaudible 00:32:00], yep. I love their prune juice, they discontinued it. Anyways, I knew that they were the only ones that I liked it, that's the only one I wanted to have. And so, have you explored something like that of creating certain things that will be top of mind where it's like Stop & Shop is the only one that actually has this kind of recipe of whatever it may be, prune juice. Rachel: Yes, actually in fact we have our own line, Nature's Promise is a proprietary line across the Ahold Delhaize brand. And we have our private label brand of course and then we have Taste of Inspirations which is a really nice higher end private label brand for us. And we are definitely doing more within that space, integrating with go rewards with our new program. When you buy a recipe that is all Nature's Promise ingredients you earn extra go points. Rachel: We have these recipes called take five that were featured within social media and we've got them in our circular and in other areas. And if it's all our Taste of Inspiration products you earn X amount of go points. We have a lot of those types of promotions that we're doing now and that's definitely what we'll be integration into our social media commerce platforms in the future. Stephanie: Very cool. And I feel like there's a lot of interesting opportunities too as you now explore ... you're going to have this new e-commerce platform to get new data and to see what people are really like and what's maybe swaying them to buy one thing versus the other. It seems like there's a lot of opportunity that'll come up around building new offerings that maybe you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. Rachel: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think if you look at solutions that's definitely really important to our customers right now. There's so many families that are just so busy and providing meal solutions, even a night, a couple nights or a week of meal solutions is such a huge time savings for a lot of families. Stephanie: Yes, I feel that with three boys now. I'm like anything to not have to cook from scratch would be appreciated. [inaudible] it's frozen, whatever it is. If it's edible it's cool. Where does personalization come into play or you guys? How do you think about showing offerings throughout your e-commerce experience or your apps that really connects with the person who's looking there? Rachel: Well, personalization [inaudible] success, so I think whether or not we get it right 100% of the time I think is something that remains to be seen. I think we have made some huge advances in personalization with the new platform, with our program. The more data we have about a consumer's shopping behavior, what they like, the better the offerings that we'll be able to give them. Rachel: So, if I purchase Doritos all of the time, hopefully I'm not getting a offer for something else, Lays potato chips, I should be getting offers for Doritos. So, that relevancy is really, really important. And that's something with this new program that we're providing customers whether it's through product coupons, which today now that I look in my coupon gallery on my app, I have six products that are relevant to what I purchase every week which is really great, so I know the algorithm is working correctly. Rachel: Then on top of that we also have more of those category offers. So, if I'm somebody that always buys fresh produce now we're actually doing more of the $5 off your purchase when you add a fresh produce. More of those category offers that are relevant to what I purchase every day. I think it's incredibly important. And then through the e-commerce journey this is really where I'd like to see us make some improvements. It's on recommendation engine type of logic, so if I'm putting a pizza dough in my basket on my e-commerce platform then hopefully somebody's going to be recommending some mozzarella and pizza sauce to me. Rachel: That type of a level of personalization is something that we strive for and want in the future. We have some degree of that today but that's certainly where I expect we will be going in the near future. Stephanie: Radical. When it comes to those recommendations are there any tools that you're relying on to build that out or is it everything you did in custom or how is that working behind the scenes? Rachel: Yeah, the recommendation actually is homegrown, so that's where our internal partner actually has been using all of the data from the loyalty program and understanding what customers buy, and there's propensity models that we have in place. So, somebody who has the same profile, who typically purchase X, Y, Z. "We actually build a model to say here are look alike customers and here's what we should recommend to them because it looks like that customer is similar so they may be interested in these types of products." And that's something that our internal data scientists have been able to build out for us. Stephanie: That's great. Is there anything when it comes to machine learning or the world of data that you guys have access to that you're maybe preparing for or different capabilities that you're building out right now that may be other grocers or other e-commerce stores are maybe a little bit behind on? Rachel: Yes, there definitely at the Ahold Delhaize level. I think that AI and certainly machine learning is something that everybody is going to have to be prepared to work on in the near future and be prepared to have teams working on that in the near future. And Ahold Delhaize does. Stop & Shop as a brand doesn't but at the Ahold Delhaize level we do. Stephanie: Very cool. And do they usually come up with something at the higher level and implement it within all of their stores or do they test it out and say, "Okay Stop & Shop you're going to pilot this and we'll learn from you and then we'll have our other brands try it as well," or how does that work? Rachel: That's exactly what it is, yeah exactly. And I see a big trend in experimentation and learning done with artificial intelligence, natural language processing. The first steps into conversational commerce and customer service. I think individually each of those is interesting but when you string it together it becomes really compelling and AI is now being given enough transactional information. And when combined with data science can match and predict customer behavior at a level not previously possible. So, natural language, processing and conversational tools really make it possible to help customers during the purchase journey and even more importantly in many aspects of customer service. Rachel: So, these previously somewhat academic technologies are being put in the hands of digital commerce managers and we begin to see the results. So, I fully expect that within the next couple of years what we're testing at a Ahold Delhaize level will be brought down to each of the brands. Stephanie: Yeah, it seems like there could be an interesting ... that you would get interesting results from the different brands because I can see very different consumers who are maybe shopping at Good old Giant back in Maryland. Rachel: Yes, you're absolutely right. Stephanie: How do you approach that when you're trying out different things and maybe you're like, "Oh, we see this with our customers at Stop & Shop, let's try this at another brand." And you're like womp womp that actually failed at that [inaudible] are so different. Rachel: Yeah, no it's a great call out and I say that all the time. I say what matters to somebody in the food [inaudible 00:40:18], so what matters to somebody maybe in North Carolina is different what matters to somebody in New York City. So, we have probably the toughest competitive market not only from a grocery retail perspective but even just from a media perspective and trying to ensure that our voice is heard within these difficult tough media markets. Rachel: So, for Stop & Shop really it's a little bit tricky and we do have to take a look at every single opportunity that comes our way and say, "Does this resonate with our consumer base?" Because a lot of times it won't. I think that there were a couple of examples of trying out even just a walk-up pickup service. In a city location you can walk to get your groceries handed to you. There've already been shop for you versus the traditional pickup where we load it to your car. That doesn't work everywhere obviously. [inaudible] work in the suburbs, it really only works at urban locations. That's one thing that comes to mind, there's a number of them that come to mind but each brand does have an option to opt out if it's not something that resonates within their base. Stephanie: Yeah, it makes sense. Try and implement that in New York city and all of a sudden these cars are being towed and then they're mad. Rachel: Right. Stephanie: [inaudible 00:41:48]. So, to go a little higher level I want to talk about general e-commerce themes and trends. I wanted to hear what kind of disruptions do you see coming to commerce that are not just from COVID or not just COVID because I think a lot people on here are like, "Oh, COVID's the big disruption." What else do you see happening in the world of e-commerce that's maybe coming down the pipe right now? Rachel: I mean one that's already here really is one stop shopping like Amazon. So, the retailers who adapt and constantly expand their options, shorten the supply chain, enhance customer service and develop great options for delivery and pick-up have the most success. So, I think that the model that Amazon has and Wayfair, the direct to consumer shipping is not as much as a disruption to e-commerce. That's here to stay and I think we have to learn from that and we have to adapt in order to stay competitive. And I think a lot of retailers are going to have to adapt in this new world. Everybody's going to have to be able to figure out how to provide that one stop shop because it's similar to brick & mortar shopping. You don't want to go to multiple locations on a Saturday afternoon. Rachel: It's the same thing, if you're going to pay for shipping you're going to pay for it once from one retailer or get free shipping, of course with a subscription service or promotion. And I think that's definitely here to stay. I think that convenience and the ease of finding everything in one place is that it's that big box retail mentality from back in the 80s when the big box retailers really exploded. Stephanie: Yep. Figuring out delivery and trying to compete with Amazon, man that seems very, very tough. Rachel: Very tough. Stephanie: Consumers have very high expectations now of what they want and yeah, it seems like they are quick to get upset if it's not one, two day shipping and, "Oh, it can't be here within two hours? Okay, I'm going to have to cancel the order." Rachel: Right, exactly. And "Oh, you don't have all the other things I need to? I need my face lotion and my bread. Wait, you don't have that?" Stephanie: Yeah, "Why would you not have that right next to each other?" Rachel: Right, exactly. Stephanie: Yeah, this has been awesome. Is there anything that I missed that you wanted to highlight before we jump into the lightning round? Rachel: No, I don't think so. Stephanie: Okay, cool. Well, I will pull us into the lightning round brought to you by SalesForce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready Rachel? Rachel: Oh, boy. Stephanie: All right, first one, what does the best day in the office look like for you? Rachel: Best day in the office today is at home. Stephanie: There you go. What does your virtual best day look like? Rachel: My virtual best day is when I actually have time between meetings to go get something to eat [inaudible 00:45:01]. Stephanie: That is actually a big problem I've heard from a lot of my old coworkers and talking about their whole day is now filled with meetings that maybe would've taken just a couple minutes to have a quick catch up and instead it's like, "Okay, 30 minute slots to discuss maybe one question." Rachel: Absolutely and you use your hour to the fullest extent and you're not moving around from meeting room to meeting room anymore. You're literally just sitting at your desk all day, so my best day is when I actually have a break to get up and go get something to eat because food is important to me. Stephanie: That seems like a crucial part of the day, so what's up next on your Netflix Queue. Rachel: That's a great question. I've actually blown through almost everything. Stephanie: And what was your most recent then? Rachel: I just watched the Enola Holmes. Stephanie: I'm watching that now, it's so cute. Rachel: Oh, it was excellent, I loved it, it was really great. I love Millie Bobby Brown, I think she's fantastic. Stephanie: Yeah, she was really good. Highly recommend that one. What's up next on your travel destinations when you can travel again? Rachel: Oh, gosh I want to go to Scotland so bad. Stephanie: Oh, fun. What do you want to go there for? Rachel: I want to golf. I love the countryside, just looks amazing, beautiful. I want to go hiking there. I have a lot of grand plans for Scotland and Ireland too as well. Stephanie: If you were to have a podcast what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Rachel: It would definitely be about true crime because I'm obsessed with true crime, which I know everybody is right now but I really do find it fascinating and I always have. This isn't just a fab for me, I always really liked it. Stephanie: Mm-hmm (affirmative). You started it, everyone else followed. Rachel: Yeah, exactly. I'm a trendsetter of course. Stephanie: Yes. And who would your guest be then? Will it be a serial killer? Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. I would love to interview a serial killer. I just want to know what goes on. I want to get deep for sure with a serial killer, name any one. Stephanie: All right, I mean I would listen to that. I hope they're behind bars when that happens. Rachel: Yes, yeah. I could do the interview behind bars for sure. Stephanie: There you go. And if you were to pick a virtual event right now for your team or if you already had one that you've done recently, what would it be that you think is engaging in these times? Rachel: I think there's a women's conference coming up in Boston that I would love for my team to attend. I just attended a women's leadership conference that was really amazing. It was very inspirational, even virtually I was really surprised at how well done it was and how just thought provoking the virtual conference could be. It was really fantastic. Stephanie: That sounds awesome. All right, and then the last one, what is a favorite app on your phone right now that you're loving? Rachel: This is bad but I have the CARROT app, which I don't know if you know, CARROT is the weather app. Stephanie: No, I actually don't. Rachel: It's a weather app that actually gives you a really sarcastic, snarky message every day when you open it up, so ... Stephanie: Oh, my gosh. That's great. I like that, that's really good. Well, Rachel this has been such a fun interview. Where can people find out more about you and Stop & Shop? Rachel: So, Stop&Shop.com Stop & Shop app and me, my LinkedIn profile, so Rachel Stephens, S-T-E-P-H-E-N-S. Stephanie: Awesome, well thanks so much for joining the show. Rachel: Thank you very much for having me.

1. keep feelings to oneself 自己知道就好 大家对Ross对待Rachel的问题上都很不爽，纷纷抱怨，Monica却认为we should keep feelings to ourselves. Keep feelings to oneself 自己知道就行别说出来Phoebe: Oh, I hate this. Everything's changing.Chandler: Yeah I know, we're losing Ross, Joey said hence…Monica: Look, I'm not happy about this either, but y'know if-if Ross says he's happy then we're just gonna have to keep our feelings about Emily to ourselves. Are you cool with that?Joey: No! But y'know, I'm an actor, I'll act cool.2. give sb creeps 令人毛骨悚然 Rachel在地下室很害怕说Storage room gives me creeps. Give sb creeps 令人毛骨悚然Creepy 可怕的以前有一个很经典的恐怖片系列叫Creepshow, 中文翻译成《鬼作秀》Rachel: Ohh, whoa God! Storage rooms give me the creeps! Monica, come on please hurry up honey! Please?Monica: Rachel, if you want the little round waffles, you gotta have to wait until I find the little waffle iron.3. be on board 完全赞成 Ross对Emily的决定totally onboard。 Be on board. 完全赞成Is everyone on board with the new plan? Then let's get to work!Ross: (on the phone) No-no-no, it's just a bit sudden. (Listens) No, it's great. Okay? I'm totally on board. I love you too, all righty. Bye. (Hangs up.)Joey: What's the matter Ross?Ross: Nothing. Oh, actually, great news! I just got off the phone with Emily and it looks like I'm moving to a new apartment. Woo-hoo!Phoebe: Why?Ross: Well, her thought is, and I agree, fresh new furniture, why not a fresh new apartment? Her cousin has this great place to sublet, it's got a view of the river on one side and Columbia on the other.Joey: That's way uptown! That's like three trains away! (Phoebe pinches him.) Which is great! I love to ride that rail!4. Yeti 喜马拉雅雪人 本集的名字提到了Yeti, Rachel把地下室见到的怪人称作Yeti. Yeti喜马拉雅雪人，一种类似人和猿之间的动物，到底有没有一直有争议。Big foot 大脚怪，是生活在美国和加拿大的一种人猿怪兽。Rachel: You guys! You guys!Monica: We were, we were just in the storage area and we saw this really creepy man!Rachel: It was like this crazy-eyed, hairy beast man! He was like a, like a bigfoot or a yeti or something!Monica: And he came at us with an axe, so Rachel had to use a bug bomb on him!Rachel: (proud of herself) Yeah, I-I-I just pulled the tab and I just fogged his yeti ass!5. stick up for sb 支持，维护 得知和Rachel用防狼喷雾喷的误以为是野人的人其实是邻居，Monica对Joey说you always stick up for the people we fog!Stick up for sb 支持，维护，替说好话To some extent, the authors argue, women themselves are to blame for not doing enough to advance their own interests and stick up for their achievements.这几位作者认为，一定程度上，妇女们并未尽全力扩大自身权益并维护已取得的成就，这一点她们难逃其咎。Joey: Yeah, you fogged Danny.Rachel: Please! We did not fog Danny! Who's Danny?Joey: Dan just moved in downstairs. Yeah, he just got back from like this four-month trek in the Andes. Nice fella.Monica: Oh he's nice. He's nice! Y'know, you always stick up for the people we fog!6. Don't get attached 别太亲近了 Monica告诫Rachel对菲比的大衣Don't get too attached. Get attached 产生关系产生联系。Don't get attached 别太亲近，别太喜欢了Rachel: Oh my God! Oh my God, look at these pelts!Monica: Don't get too attached, she's having it cremated.Rachel: What? Uhh, Phoebe, honey, honey, I know you're quirky and I get a big kick out of it, we all do actually, but if you destroy a coat like this that is like a crime against nature! Not nature, fashion!7. get a kick out of sth 很欣赏某事 Rachel说菲比quirky，古里古怪的。然后说I get a big kick out of it. Get a kick out of sth 很享受某事，非常欣赏某事8. snap judgement 不假思索的判断，以貌取人 Rachel在和Danny的争吵中承认自己犯了snap judgement的错误。 Snap judgement 不假思索的判断，以貌取人。Rachel: Hi!Danny: So you like the short hair better.Rachel: What? Yeti—I mean Danny?Danny: I had to cut my hair to get rid of the uh, fogger smell.Rachel: Oh. Listen, I'm so sorry. I would, I would've never fogged you if y'know if you hadn't looked so…. Y'know.Danny: Absolutely. Some people are just into appearances.Rachel: (shocked) What?Danny: That's cool. Cool. (Starts to leave.)Rachel: What? Hey! No-no-no! This not cool! You don't even know me!Danny: Come on, you got the shopping bags and the Sack's catalog.Rachel: So from that you think you've got me all figured out? Well, you don't! Y'know I-I could have toys for underprivileged kids in here!Danny: Do you?Rachel: Well, y'know, if-if kids like to play with Capri pants.Danny: Okay. (Heads for his apartment.)Rachel: And stop saying that! I hate that!Danny: Okay!Rachel: Fine! I judged you. I made a snap judgement. But you did it too! And you are worse because you are sticking to your stupid snap judgement! You can't even open up your mind for a second to see if you're wrong! What does that say about you?Danny: The pizza-place across the street any good?Rachel: What?!Danny: I'm hungry. Wanna get some pizza? You can keep yelling if there's more.Rachel: Okay. Okay.Danny: Stop saying that. I hate that.9. smooth talker 口才好的人 Rachel说Danny是一个smooth talker.Smooth talker 口才很好的人 想到了MJ的经典歌曲 smooth criminal 犯罪高手Rachel: (entering) Hi!Monica: Hey, look at you! Where have you been?Rachel: Oh, I went to have pizza. With Danny.Monica: How did that happen?Rachel: That yeti is one smooth talker.Monica: I hope you're not full, 'cause dinner's almost ready.Rachel: Yeah, y'know I-I think I'm just gonna hang out in my room.All: No! Why?Rachel: Come on you guys! Listen, if Emily knew I was here having dinner you with you she would flip out and you know it. It's okay, I really… I don't mind.Ross: Wait! Wait! Wait! Y'know what? Just stay. Please? It uh… It would really mean a lot to me if you stayed.Rachel: Ross, I…Joey: RACHEL PLEASE!!! JUST HAVE DINNER WITH US!!!Rachel: Okay. Okay. Joey, it's okay. Settle down.Joey: All right, I-I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You see Rach I'm an actor…

Independent. Dependent. Codependent. Which one exemplifies most of your relationships? Can there be a mix of these that make up a relationship? Today, in the final installment of the relationship series, Erin and Rachel are diving into the makeup of relationships, steps you can to improve these relationships, and what ultimately relationships come down to! The girls discuss: Ways your subconscious mind may be sabotaging relationships How you may be missing the mark Communication struggles Erin faced at the beginning of her relationship with her husband (and why you may be having the same struggles) A major problem you might have in your thinking about men and relationships Repercussions that can happen when you repress your emotions Important discussions to have before you get married The two things all relationships are ultimately based off of And so much more! Let's take a listen! Resources: Rachel's Instagram: @iamrachelbrooks Erin's Instagram: @erin_travelsforlife The Confident Woman Podcast Instagram: @theconfidentwomanpodcast Quotes: “You do have to kind of spell things out for them sometimes.” - Erin “I think we're taught to just like stuff them down and not feel emotions.” - Rachel “It's a constant growth. The journey never ends.” - Rachel --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theconfidentwoman/message

Have you ever felt like you were chasing the unattainable? Something so perfect that you could never quite get there? Well, in today's episode, the girls are chatting all Chasing Perfection! To be exact, they're talking about Rachel's new book, Chasing Perfection: A Journey to Healing, Fitness, and Self-Love! The girls talk about everything from what led Rachel to even consider writing a book, what she learned throughout the writing process, why perfection isn't realistic and so much more! You'll hear more about: What Rachel realized she was actually chasing after in her life What you need to overcome so you can create the future your desire How the book came to fruition The one thing you need to identify before you can truly share your story Three simple questions she talks about in Chasing Perfection and why those questions are still relevant to her today The growing pains Rachel felt while she was writing the book What she was really looking for in her pursuit of perfection How her baggage skewed the way she viewed the world Why being good enough is the best you can ask for Let's take a listen! Resources: Erin's Instagram: @erin_travelsforlife Rachel's Instagram: @iamrachelbrooks The Confident Woman Podcast Instagram: @theconfidentwomanpodcast Chasing Perfection: A Journey to Healing, Fitness, and Self-Love Quotes: “Those who are perfection seekers know that it's a constant burnout, a constant struggle.” - Rachel “I was so proud of the work of my own transformation that I almost felt like if I didn't share this with others it's a disservice because it's a gift.” - Rachel “It's scary to face those skeletons in our closet.” - Rachel --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theconfidentwoman/message

In this episode I meet Rachel Elnaugh, businesswoman, author and one of the original Dragons. We talk about her time running Red Letter Days and what it means to be an evolutionary entrepreneur. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on wellbeing.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Rachel's interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Rachel Elnaugh, author, speaker, mentor, former Dragon and the creator of Red Letter Days. She launched the experience day voucher company in 1989 when she was 24 years old. And after a precarious start, a print brochure campaign launched it to success. This led to multiple awards and a place as one of the original Dragons on Dragon’s Den. The company went into administration in 2005 due to over-expansion and the remaining assets were bought by fellow Dragons, Peter Jones and Theo Paphitis. They eventually sold the firm to Buyagift and it’s now owned by French firm, The Smartbox Group.   Taking the lessons of Red Letter Days with her, Elnaugh now mentors business owners and speaks at events in the hope that fellow entrepreneurs can learn from her experiences. Anna: Hi Rachel. Rachel: Hi Anna. Thank you for that intro. Anna: Not at all. How are you doing? Rachel: Yeah good, thank you. Great. The first thing I’d like to ask you about is that you describe yourself as an ‘evolutionary entrepreneur’ – what do you mean by that, exactly? Rachel: Well, I’ve been on my own journey of transformation and particularly being a business mentor, have got really interested in what makes one person successful and one another not. That’s kind of my holy grail – to really understand what makes the difference which has kind of taken me on this journey of discovery through mindset, through energy work and metaphysics and so I do think there’s a new era of consciousness opening. I think I’m moving out of that old capitalist business paradigm into this new era, along with many other people, which is a very different way of doing business. It’s much more intuitive and much more about manifestation and effortless flow. If your focus isn’t capitalism, what is it? Rachel: Well, capitalism is fundamentally about scarcity and really about putting money ahead of all other considerations. As we move into this new era, we’re seeing that businesses that aren’t just about profit but are also very much about people and about the planet are really coming to the fore – those brands that embrace a much wider idea of success than just money. We’re seeing a massive change and we’re also starting to unravel some of the programmes of capitalism like scarcity. For example, with renewable energy, the sun never stops shining, the waves and the wind never stop. There’s so much natural resource to tap into that I think this deep programme of scarcity is being unravelled and uninstalled. Anna: Yeah, you can see in businesses now that a corporate social responsibility is non-negotiable. If the business doesn’t have an ethical basis then at least it’ll be embedded in their business plan. Rachel: Yeah, and I think it goes way beyond the veneer of corporate social responsibility of wrapping a company with that. I think the companies that are really powerfully coming through are ones that have actually got ethics at the heart of them. So, I think there’s a new breed of entrepreneur coming through which goes way beyond social enterprise, it’s people working from the heart, really passionate about their businesses and their brands. And wanting to do business but in a way that is very nourishing.                   Definitely, I agree. I’d like to talk a bit about Red Letter Days as well. You made a loss of £4.7m at the time that you realised something was amiss. According to previous reports, there were various issues: management consultants taking on too many projects, a dud CEO, suppliers going unpaid, your financial director keeping information from you. Rachel: I think that when a business goes wrong, a lot of waves hit the ship at the same time. Up until that point, we’d had a very successful company that was growing every year, that was profitable. In 2002, I started winning awards and getting on television. I think you can get the Midas touch and start to push too far and fast. Suddenly it’s driven by profit motives and ego rather than just wanting to create great products and experiences and services. We brought in some management consultants who recommended that it was time for the business to grow up and to parachute in a new chief executive to take it to the next level – we really thought we could groom the business to float it. It was really that process of over-expansion, as you said in the intro, that was our undoing. It was a very big lesson. I think if I had to share that lesson with other entrepreneurs I would say just grow organically and in a very steady way rather than trying to step change a business and leap to the next level. That was the mistake we made. Anna: So, there’s a surge in confidence – then a real dip in confidence – on your part. Rachel: Well, as I said, a lot of waves hit the ship at the same time, so we parachuted in a chief executive who was brilliant at spending money. He’d actually come in from Thomas Cook and he is the one who created the JMC brand which, literally the day before he joined, was closed down by Thomas Cook. That should have been a warning. I also didn’t have a strong enough finance director and I think that’s really crucial in a business, I realise now. To have a very trusted, rock-solid finance director is key. So we over-expanded, overspent and then crucially, our credit card takings were bonded by our bank. When we were forced into administration, we had £3.3m cash at bank. That was another big lesson in that whoever controls the money has all the power. We had a huge amount of cash at bank but we just couldn’t touch it. And the bank forced us into administration. When that bond was unbound over the next year, all of the vouchers had been redeemed, the actual cost of fulfilling them was only just over £1m. While the bond was appropriate, the level of it was way in excess of what was necessary. And it was that cash flow that strangled the business and forced us into administration. There were a lot of factors involved and it was a very very dark, difficult learning process for me. From your learnings, what kind of advice would you give entrepreneurs about finding the right bank, the right account, the right adviser for them?      Rachel: It was interesting because I remember having a discussion on the set of Dragon’s Den with Duncan Bannatyne, my fellow Dragon. I was telling him the problems at that time I was struggling with trying to get this bond lifted. And he just turned to me and said: ‘Rachel, the first rule of business: do not bank with Barclay’s’. And the thing is, you don’t really understand how much power a bank has over you until you run into problems. And I think some banks are more ruthless than others. It was a big learning curve. But I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming and in victim mode because in truth, we were undercapitalised. And it’s very difficult to re-finance yourself out of a cash flow issue like that. If I could’ve re-run the clock it would’ve been much better for us to have got some proper venture capital funding before embarking on the expansion plan rather than trying to fund it out of cash flow. Tell me about the months after the company went into administration – what was it like for you? Rachel: It was a bit of a double-edged thing because on one side of things, it was quite tragic for me because I’d spent 16 years building this company literally from nothing, it was literally like my baby. I’d poured my whole life into it. All of my passion and all of my money, I’d lost that. On the other side of things, it was so stressful towards the end that when I finally signed the papers and put it into administration – and I really had no choice – it was a massive relief and a release. I’d just had my fourth son the week before so that was a great gift from God, you know. It was August, the sun was shining, I had a newborn baby and also, I’d just been on Dragon’s Den. So, I had this new world opening up to me of being this TV celebrity entrepreneur. And even though I got annihilated by the press, I was given a book deal. I wrote a book called Business Nightmares about the fine line between success and failure. That came out in May 2008 and in September 2008, world economies crashed, and we had the banking crash. And this repositioning of myself as a business survivor was actually perfect timing because it opened up a whole new world of speaking at business events, becoming a mentor and creating lots of products and ways of helping other people on their entrepreneurial journey. It was synchronistic and beautiful even though at the time it felt like the worst possible thing that could ever happen to me. Anna: I read that you found a note that you had written some time before about what you wanted for the future. It said something along the lines of ‘I will sell off Red Letter Days’. Rachel: This was long before I understood the power of words and the law of attraction. A friend of mine was training to be a life coach and she needed guinea pig clients. I said, ‘I don’t need a life coach but I’ll be your guinea pig client’. She got me to write this life plan and I found it after the company had crashed. I had written this several years before, but I found the piece of paper. On it I’d written: ‘By 2006, get rid of Red Letter Days so I can spend more time at home with my children, be creative and write.’ And so the universe had delivered that little cosmic order exactly to plan. You notice I didn’t write on there: ‘Sell Red Letter Days for £20m, be creative and write’, it said ‘get rid of’. And ‘get rid of’ is a very angry energy and so the universe got rid of it for me. We have to be very careful about our spelling, spelling is very powerful. You have to be careful what you ask for because it’s delivered often exactly to the word. What about planning what would happen within your business, including the staff. What was the process there? Rachel: We didn’t want to go into administration and we were working on all sorts of ways to re-finance. I had a re-financing offer from HBOS and I was looking for match equity funding. What happened was one of our suppliers – and sometimes in these situations, suppliers can be their own worst enemy – took a winding up order against the company. Could you briefly describe what a winding up order is for our listeners who don’t know? Rachel: Basically, if a company owes you money and they don’t pay, you can enter into court a winding up order which is if they don’t pay, you’re going to wind up the company and get paid that way. It’s a bit like dropping a nuclear bomb on someone to get what you want. Usually, in normal circumstances, if you get a winding up order from a creditor then you just pay them. But in our situation – it was a long time ago – but there was a legal reason why we couldn’t just pay them because we couldn’t create preferential creditors. When a winding up order has been put in, it basically opens you up to every other creditor. What happened was the creditors started arriving at the company offices to try and take the assets. So the only way we could protect the staff was firstly to lock the doors. We were in London and we had staff in our head office in Muswell Hill on the phone saying, ‘There are people at the doors, what do we do?’ We had to say, ‘You just have to lock the doors.’ We were advised by the lawyers that the only way to protect the company and its assets from these creditors in their vans was to put the company into administration. Through that winding up order we were forced into administration and as a result, no one got paid because I couldn’t complete the re-financing and it was game over. It was a very fine line between success and failure. Had we not had that winding up order, I could potentially have maybe, and it’s always an if, completed on the HBOS deal, the bond would’ve been released because we would have re-financed. Then we could have traded through and floated the company which was the plan because it had growth and it had profitability and it had a great brand. But alas, alack, it was not to be. How long would the re-financing process take? Rachel: All of my time was spent in meetings with bank and financiers, so I had the deal agreed. It was just a case of finding match equity funding. I actually did go to Peter [Jones] and Theo [Paphitis] and said, ‘I’ve got this deal. Could you match-fund it?’ There was potential they could’ve done that, but they felt there was a bigger opportunity to push it through administration, although that proved not to be the case. It is a bit like going nuclear, pushing your company through administration. And certainly with that industry, they couldn’t wipe the deck by putting it through administration because no one would supply the business without getting paid. It was quite messy.                                          The experiences industry is huge now. If you could have started Red Letter Days at any time within the past 30 years, when would you have started it? Rachel: We were the pioneers of the industry. And really, the 1980s were about how much you owned and the 1990s were about what you could experience, so the timing of creating the company was perfect because it captured the zeitgeist of the era. We weren’t the first company that did experiences, but we were the first company to truly embrace the concept of experiential giving. Anna: I suppose – I’m not sure about our listeners – but for me it seems like a pretty recent shift towards less buying of stuff to more buying of experiences, but it’s interesting to find out that back then that it was emerging – it’s always great to get in on that emerging market. Rachel: Yeah, for sure – we were creating that as we went. And a lot of people picked up on it, so we had lots of copycat companies and competitors. Then Virgin Experiences came in on it followed by all the retailers. And now it’s commonplace to see experiences as your prize or gift as opposed to a TV or a tangible piece of technology or kit.           You’ve said that part of the struggle of Red Letter Days initially was getting experience providers on board with something that was novel at the time – what would you say to entrepreneurs running a business based on a fairly new concept? Rachel: In essence, Red Letter Days was a marketing portal. When we launched in 1989, everyone’s books were full, and business was booming. Then the first recession happened in the early 1990s and people’s revenues started dropping. Even though a recession was opening, that was a great opportunity for us because people could see that their sales were dropping, and they wanted more promotion – especially free promotion – which is what we were offering. So I think in every era there’s always opportunity in adversity and I think you just have to tune into the market and be resourceful and just go with the flow and find out where people’s point of pain is and provide a solution to it.      Anna: Well, that’s it from me – is there anything you would like to add? Rachel: No, that’s fine. Hopefully that’s been useful. Anna: Yeah, it has been. Thank you so much. You can find out more about Rachel at rachelelnaugh.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on mental wellbeing and expanding your company. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Four-time New York Times bestselling author Rachel Van Dyken has been called "the second coming of Candace Bushnell" after the release of her newest book with legendary Super Model turned Super Mogul, Kathy Ireland. The pair co-wrote the novel Fashion Jungle about the model's life in the fashion industry. The book has been described as "Sex and the City meets the #MeToo Movement with a dash of Valley of the Dolls." Rachel has written close to 85 romance novels in the last ten years and is on mission to change the stigma of the genre. Learn more about Rachel. Learn more about The Passionistas Project. FULL TRANSCRIPT:  Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Wall Street Journal, USA Today and four time New York Times bestselling author Rachel Van Dyken. Rachel was called the second coming of Candace Bushnell after the release of her newest book with legendary supermodel turned super mogul Kathy Ireland. The pair co-wrote the novel "Fashion Jungle" about the model's life. The book has been described as "Sex and the City" meets the #MeToo movement, with a dash of "Valley of the Dolls." So please welcome to the show Rachel Van Dyken. Rachel: Thank you so much for having me. Passionistas: Thanks for being here. We're really excited to talk to you today. What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Rachel: The one thing I'm most passionate about is my family. Um, they always come first, no matter what I'm doing, whatever project I'm working on, and then obviously hand in hand with that is writing. It's, it's something that I don't understand the concept of being stressed about deadlines or stressed about getting books out because for me, that's just my passion in life. I love getting words out. I love creating worlds for readers. So really it's, that's my passion and it's my job, which is, I'm really lucky. Passionistas: Tell us about how you became a writer. Rachel: So I actually was a school counselor. Right out of college, which I don't know why I thought that was a good idea at 21. But I was a school counselor. I had about 800 kids that I was in charge of, um, which was a lot for someone, you know, at my age. And I got really bad anxiety attacks, like really bad panic attacks from it because you're dealing with so much emotional stuff. You know, you have four year olds that are in preschool talking about suicide and it's just, it's just a lot to handle. Um, so I started reading, so I would take, um, I worked also for the state and I would take my clients to the library and I'd be like, okay, check out a book. And then we'd go through it and talk about, you know, social cues in how to approach friendship and different things like that. And then at the time I just was a voracious reader, so I would check out like 15 books. And so I started checking out a ton of historical romance and in between the times I had clients, I started thinking, Hey, I could, I'm going to try. I thought I could do it. So I tried writing and would just send chapters to my sister every other day and she was like, this is great, but I'm like, you're a liar. You're my sister. You have to say it's good. Um, but yeah, then I sent it to a publisher and I got my first publishing deal, but it was a really great outlet for me. You know, I always encouraged kids to have a journal and for me it was almost like my own personal journal. Only it was romance. Passionistas: So why did you pick romance? Rachel: I love love. And I think that so often, especially as women, we are shamed for maybe being more sexual or talking about love or talking about female empowerment and relationships. And it really bothered me that romance was getting kind of this, this, I loved reading about it and people would always be like, Oh, that's a romance novel. Like I remember in college I had a friend, a friend that whenever I would bring in like a romance book and it was usually like Regency historical, he'd be like, Oh, you're reading one of those again. And I felt like I had to hide it. Like I felt like I wasn't allowed to have that book out in my history class because it wasn't considered real literature. So I wanted to prove that romance obviously is literature and it's good and it's amazing. And so because I love that and kids was a passion and because I loved reading about it, I wanted to write about it too. Passionistas: Do you feel like the stigma of that genre has changed in recent years? Rachel: Every time I think it has, I feel like we go backwards. You know, every single time I'm like, Hey, they finally get it and we're getting the respect we deserve. There's like an article somewhere that makes, that a man wrote, obviously that makes fun of our genre or that says there's other authors that are real authors and writers and we just write bodice rippers. And so that's something that it bothers me on a daily basis. I know the other day there was a post that was going viral and now it was about this library that did a thing called bad romance. And they would check out these romance books and they would host it every Valentine's day and they would pick out passages and make fun of romance novels. And I'm thinking, especially when you're taking stuff out of context like that, of course it's going to sound funny because you haven't been reading, you don't know the characters, you don't know. And there are some of them are my friends, like the ones that are making fun of. And so that is just, I mean that's just more random, 2020 we shouldn't be having to do stuff like that. And so I think that there is still a stigma, but I'm hoping that me and my fellow writers can help continue to battle that as we do. Passionistas: How do you battle it? Rachel: The biggest thing that we do is we try to be really informed, like letting people know, okay, like a bodice ripper of maybe back in the day when people were getting Harlequin books that were all Fabio on the front. Like that's what people think when they think romance. You know the other thing you're writing "50 Shades of Gray" or they think that you're writing Fabio. And so for us it's just making sure people know what it is and making sure that the readers do a really good job of um, letting people know what it is and not having, not being shamed for it. And I think too, on top of that, that's why things like this are so important. Doing a podcast and, and other large media outlets because then it takes that stigma away and then you can start talking about what's so important. You know, like we read about cancer and these books we read about research, we have very intelligent women and men in these books that, you know, have these passionate, you know, times together. But it's all character driven. And I think it's really important that people understand that it's a story and it's still character driven. There's a lot of writers in that space and you've been very successful. Passionistas: So talk about some of the highs and lows just from a business perspective of what you're doing. Rachel: When you start writing, you have to look at it as a business. And for me it's always been very important to look at it as a marathon, not a sprint. You know, a lot of writers start out and they put all their eggs in one basket. They're like, this book is going to hit. But what they don't understand is even if that book does hit, you still have to hit all those other times too. It's not just like a one, one hit thing and then you're going to be like, you know, going to the Hamptons with Nicholas Sparks, like, that's not how it works. Um, and I think that's a common misconception because you, when a book does really well, all of a sudden you see this person everywhere and you just assume that it was their first book and they haven't been working really hard for 20 years. Like you just, you don't know 'em and I think when Amazon opened its doors to all the self-publishing, you have a lot of people, you have a lot of competition and you have a lot of people that are coming in and doing what we call like their, I don't, they're called farms basically. And so they come in and they just make up random pen names and they'll release like 15 books that have all been ghost written and then they're trying to, you know, make money and cheat the system and stuff. And so for us, like you're really having to navigate those waters. And something I, I've mentored a couple of authors and something I always tell them is don't, don't think of it as competition and don't keep people in the red ocean. It's like a red ocean versus blue ocean marketing perspective for me, don't compete. And do the same old thing with everyone else and be like, Oh, this stepbrother romance, that's huge. Let's do that. Don't do that. But bring them over into the blue ocean where there's lots of competition, there's more originality. And even if you're not making as much money in that blue ocean, you're still giving a better product to your readers and you're giving them something different. You're not giving them the same thing that you're seeing in the Amazon or Apple top 100, you know, you want to give them something different. And so for me, there's been a ton of crazy highs, but there's been a lot of lows too. And you just have to ride that wave and no one publishing. It's going to be that way. Passionistas: So now your first book was published traditionally with a book publisher and then you also self-published. So talk about the different approaches and how you approach each way. Rachel: I think it's really a smart to have your hand kind of in a lot of different cookie jars because when you do just traditional publishing, um, you don't have a lot of say in what goes on. Um, um, luckily I have great publishers who do, who really want me to be partners with them, which I love. But that doesn't always happen, especially when you're newer. Um, because you haven't had those sales to prove, you know, that you know what you're talking about. They're like, no, we know. Um, so traditional publishing, it's more of a hands off. You turn in your manuscript, you do your edits, done indie publishing or self-publishing, you have control over the editing process. You have control over the cover art control over the marketing. And so I think it just depends on where your passion is. If you're a really controlling person, it's hard. It's hard to give your baby away to the big publisher if they change it. I had a publisher change. The girl was, um, had dark hair and they put a blonde on the cover and I was like, why would you do this? And they were like, Oh, we just liked the picture better. And I'm like, that doesn't make any. So then I have readers like coming at me thinking, why would you do this to your cover? And I'm like, I didn't do it. And so then that's a repetitive process. So I think it's nice to have both. I think the indie publishing for me is great because I can plan my schedule to where I do my traditional release and then I have non-compete, so I have to wait six weeks so that I could do my own. So I still have series. I refuse to sell that our mind that I, that I write in. And then I have series that publishers own that they continue to keep. So it's kind of nice to have both. And I think there's, I think there's, I think it's smart to do that. I think it's good, especially if you have a book series, it didn't do that great. And that's, you know, your business and that's how you're putting food on the table. It's nice to have a traditional deal waiting in the back that, you know, was a sure thing. Passionistas: How many books have you written and do you write more than one at a time? Rachel: Yes, I write usually three books at a time. Um, but it's because so there was really good point. It, I don't get writer's block because of it because I'm constantly changing scenery, changing characters and I hate being on like tr whenever I have to finish one book and I know it's due in like a week. I hate that because then I have to stop working on other things because that's what helps me stay fresh. That's what helps me, you know, reinvent the story. Like I'll be writing, say a paranormal just for fun and all of a sudden I'm like, Oh, but this could happen and I'll just like click over and go in my other book. So it really helps me out. And I usually don't write in the same genre. So I be writing mafia with contemporary romance, maybe with like a little rock star romance or paranormal. So it's all different so I can keep them apart. Um, and I typically release 11 to 12 books a year and depending on my traditional release schedule, because everything has to go around that. And then I have, I believe we're over 85 books now published. Passionistas: And how long have you been doing it? Rachel: 10 years. Passionistas: And you've had time to have a family. Rachel: Yeah. Passionistas: So how do you juggle all that good scheduling? Rachel: It's, I used to, I don't honestly know what I used to do with my time. My husband and I asked that like every day we're like, did we just read magazines and sit around the house? Like what did we do? Because you know, we had full time jobs but you know with a child everything changes. It is you, your schedule changes your sleep, you don't sleep ever again. It's fantastic. Um, so for you know, for a while and my husband was really just being a full time, cause he works from home, stay at home dad and working full time. And I honestly have such a good partner and he's always been a huge advocate of it's not my job to watch my child. It's my privilege to have this child that gets not, you know, cause so often, especially people that are my age, we hear dads that are like, Oh yeah, I'll watch the kids tonight if you want to go out, you know, with your girls. And it's like, no, no, like that's this. It's 50/50. You can, you know, I don't know. So he's always been, and he always thinks it's funny that that people are someone all how involved he is. But I'm like, no, that's his, it's his life. You know, he's the one that's like, let's have 10 more kids and I'm like, or we can only have a few. So yeah. So he's really supportive and great. And then obviously I really utilize my time when little guys napping or when he's at school, I'm working as hard as I can, getting those words out and, and I still answer all my own social media and do all that. So I definitely split it up. So if he's around, I'm on my phone trying to answer messages and emails. But then once it's around six, lately it hasn't been like this, but usually that's, it's around six o'clock. I put everything down, everything's done. And then we have family time and he knows that he knows when he's at from his nap, it's time for like mom and dad to play and we do whatever. Passionistas: So most of the writing you do is classified as new adult. So for someone who doesn't know, talk about what that genre is. Rachel: New adult is right after sa you're 18, 19 years old, um, it can be all the way up to 25-ish. And it's kind of that time in your life when you're like, what am I doing with my life? Why doesn't my degree work anymore? Why am I in student loan debt? You know, it's that whole time where you're trying to figure out who you are and what your place is in the world. And I find it extremely fascinating because no matter how old you are, it's just like with why books, no matter how old you are, you remember being in that place. And so it's really fun to write because you remember what it was like when, when you were struggling, when you were like, do I have enough to buy chicken nuggets today? No, I do not. You know, like money and when you first get your first electric bill and you're like, what is this? You know, just all those times and all those life lessons. I think it's so fascinating putting it in book form because that's also a lot of times too, when you have your true love, right? Your very first love or your very first, you know, heartache. And so I think it's interesting to write about that because the feelings that are behind that are so intense because you have so much going on and you're not really, people say you're an but you're really not an adult yet. And so it's just a really fascinating time. So new adult would definitely be that little section of time where we call it like coming of age time. Passionistas: You wrote your new book, which is called "Fashion Jungle" with supermodel Kathy Ireland. So how did that come about and what was it like working with her? Rachel: We had a mutual friend introduce us and we honestly, I remember talking about, she called me later that week and I was sitting in front of my house and she was like, Hey, this is my idea. What do you think? Um, I kind of want to call it "Fashion Jungle." And there was these four women and I want them each to be in their thirties, you know, this is post like them, you know, making it in this industry. And she had this story, this incredible story that included a lot of situations where, you know, she was mistreated or her friends were mistreated or there were suicides, um, agents getting people addicted to drugs or people who were involved in sex trafficking. And you never saw again, just like fascinating, heart-wrenching stuff that she really wanted to put in a fiction book, which it was hard cause we had so much content. Um, and so we decided just to start the project and it went really well. I would write stuff and send it to her. And then she would edit or add things. Um, I remember the first time I sat down, I had 15 pages of notes that we had to just say like, okay, how are we gonna, you know? And the other hard part is a lot of it is based off of real life. You know, it's, it's people, they're still living, some people that have died. And so celebrities, you know, that you can't like name names, you can't name drop it all. And so, you know, in order to protect those people and protect ourselves, we had to change names but also get permission from somebody because we were like, Hey, we're going to be writing about this. So it was really fun. It was a really fun experience. She was fantastic. Is fantastic to work with. Um, and it just one of the sweetest people in the world. Passionistas: Talk a little bit more about that, about the celebrities and how you go about getting permission from them or, or the decision to change the name rather than get permission. Rachel: Well, thankfully she was friend or is friends with a lot of these people. I mean, I don't even think that woman has enemies. She's just the nicest person. So, you know, that was the easier part. The harder part was people that maybe were not the greatest people. Um, that did take advantage, that did have the whole casting couch that, you know were worse than the worst that you've seen in Hollywood lately that are no longer with us. You know, how do you deal with that by still respecting the dead, if that makes sense. Um, and what we ended up doing is we were a prequel novella for the ebook launch and we partnered with them. And the, the actual novella was about this man that owned the biggest modeling agency in the world that was known to take advantage of all the girls, you know, and these girls, when I say girls, I'm talking 14 years old, 13 years old, and they're without their parents. They've been, they grew up thinking I trust an adult. Like, you know, you always tell your kids, find an adult, find a teacher, find this person, and then you could trust them. Like that's what you hope for your kid. And so, you know, her being in the big city, she's thinking, well, they're an adult, why would they take advantage of me? You know, she just so innocent. Her friends were innocent. They didn't know. And then also you have this added pressure of well this is just how things are in this industry, which a lot of people are like, okay, well it's Hollywood. So I guess this is how things go. And it's New York. Okay. It's the fashion industry. It's normal to be, to get asked to be topless. Like that's okay. You know, and just crazy situations. And for her she was like, you know, I knew my boundaries going in. Um, but with this person that we ended up writing about, she, because of the person that he was, she actually didn't want not want to change his first name. So we kept his first name changed the last name just because she was in an altercation with him at one point where he tried to take advantage of her in hotel room saying, there's only one bed. We need to stay the night, you know, one of those situations. And so, so yeah, so we definitely wanted to make sure that we put that out there just because people need to know, you know, and, and she's been talking about in interviews too, so it's just one of those things that I think, you know, you just deal with it as it comes. Passionistas: Are there any other names you can name in the book? Rachel: We ended up, uh, basing a character off of Arnold Schwarzenegger because they're really good friends. And so, uh, we had actually finished it and then when I went to book bands and another signing with her, we were on the phone with her manager and he's like an Arnold really just like you to add a part. And we were like, so we went back. It was really, and I was like, repeat yourself Arnold. And then I'm like, okay, we're on a first name basis, get, okay. So I had to go back and, you know, spell that name. So that was fun. Uh, and add him like a little section in, because we also had another character based off of Vanessa Williams in the book. She also did, um, like a little soundtrack, um, song for the book too, which was really nice of her. Um, and then we do have a one character that, it's one of those things that I don't mention it live cause there's a not supposed to, but if you read the book, you'll know it's based off of American royalty and this person does end up dying in a plane crash. And it's very, very, very sad. But it's someone that was close to her. Um, so that was definitely something that whenever readers pick it up and they read it, they are like, that's one of the gut wrenching parts of the book that really gets people. Because, you know, some of them were like, I remember this happening, I remember seeing this on TV. And if not, then they're, you know, Googling it as fast as they can drain of. Like, it's like for them it's like trying to find the treasure, like, okay. And that was just, you know, trying to relate everything together. Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Rachel Van Dyken. To learn more about all of her books, including "Fashion Jungle" visit RachelVanDykenauthor.com. Now here's more of our interview with Rachel. So what do you hope people take away from reading the book? Rachel: Anyone can pick up this book. It's, it's a clean read. It doesn't have, you know, anything in it that even like a 12-year-old would not be able to read that hasn't been exposed to already. Um, you know, but even if you're in your eighties, we can pick it up and we wrote it that way so that people can not only learn about the fashion industry, which was always interesting, but also learn about the people that maybe no longer have their lives anymore. You know, people that we've lost, people that have gone through really hard times, people that have disappeared. We wanted to make sure that we did have the #MeToo movement in there because this was back in a time when that was not a movement. It was not, hadn't happened yet. It's weird to me that Hollywood has had this whole movement of #MeToo, but yet no one's been talking about the fashion industry. And I think that's really strange because the fashion industry, it was worse, you know, like there and there's in situations where, you know, it was all young girls. And so that's something that we really want to do include because we haven't had that moment yet and it needs to happen. And I'm hoping that this helps raise awareness for that, you know? And on top of that we have, we deal a lot with sex trafficking. I know that's something that's close to my heart as is to Kathy's heart as well. Um, and that's something that again, like, you know, you try to raise awareness, but I feel like we're still yelling and people aren't listening. And so it's something that we want to do include in there because she did have friends that she never saw again. You know, friends that were taken overseas. I know she had said one story, which I don't know if we included all of it, but um, when you don't make it, they send you to the other agency over in Europe and they give you drugs and tell you to be nice to the men because they're businessmen. Right? But they're actually sex trafficking, you know what I mean? So like people would go over there because they couldn't make it in New York and then she would never see them again. And so it's just heartbreaking stuff that yes, it's fictionalized. It's, it's still a fun, sexy book. There's still a lot in it. It's a good suspense. But we have all those little kernels of truth and wisdom in there that people can pick up and go, wait. And so I'm hoping that this book does help and continue to help raise awareness. Passionistas: Do you think you'll start to write more books that are out of outside of the pure romance genre? Rachel: My goal in life is to write a really good suspense that has a little bit of romance, but as categorized as a suspense. Because I love in this book we have a, I write a mafia romance, which sounds silly, but it's awesome. Love it so much. Um, I just love intense people and I love anti-heroes. So I love people that you think you can't redeem them. They're the worst. They justify all these things and in the end they're actually like a good person. And you see, just in this book we had a character day and that was like that. You think he's like the bad person, the villain and all of this and he's actually the savior of them all, which I think is so cool. And so I love writing stuff like that. And I hope that in the future with Kathy or whoever, I'm writing with the, I can continue to write books that have that romance in there that I desperately love, but also have so many other things that can actually help help people as well. Passionistas: Are you going to write more with Kathy right now? Rachel: We have not even talked about it because we've been doing press for two weeks now. Uh, but I would be totally open to it. You know, like I said, we had a lot of content and it was really hard. One of the things that I care from readers is, well there are so many storylines. It was like it took me to like page 10 and I'm like that's fine cause you have to get to know the characters. And like for romance, a lot of times there's just two point of views. So for my readers, you know, they're used to the two, not to the four or five, like different people that are talking. Uh, so yeah, I would love to write more with her and I would definitely love to bring in, you know, we left it open. So to bring in any of those storylines again and doing an offshoot of that would be fun. Well and she's the kind of person too that seems like you could do something about business. Like, she's such a pioneer in business and branding and yes, I want to just kind of sit at her feet and have her tell me all, all her secrets, all her things. She's brilliant. And she was one of those people that, you know, when, when she was deciding, you know, I'm have a family now where I'm pregnant, you know, what do I do? Like she shifted her mindset to woman business woman. Like even though I'm a model, I'm still a business woman, so I'm going to do this. And I think her very first business was socks. Like she sold a brand of socks and it sold, sold out. And it did. And so they just went from there. You know, what about this, what about that? And she and Kathy Ireland worldwide do a fantastic job of once you're under their wing and you're part of their family, you're part of their family forever. And I think that's something that, that speaks volumes about who she is and who they are. And I think on top of that, it's also why she's so successful is because those people had been with her for a long time. And, and, and once you're partners with her, you know, you've, she mentors you, you know what I mean? And she's really great at that. Passionistas: What do you think is your best habit? Rachel: My best habit's probably working out and making sure that I get up. My watch always tells me to stand cause I'm always sitting and I am the type of person that, again, I'm high anxiety cause I'm, you know, I think a lot of creative people are because we're just like Whoa all over the place. You know, I don't sleep super well because I'm constantly thinking about books. And so one thing that I do that my husband's really good at being reminding me like, remember you've been sitting for 10 hours, remember? Like you're going to feel so much better if you do this. And that's, I do CrossFit. So that's, that's a habit that I've kept up for the last five years. You even did it when I was pregnant and I think it's so important. I always tell my readers too, I'm always like a huge advocate of eating healthy, but also getting out, even if it means like just getting out of your chair and walking around your hotel room and doing some air squats or just taking a walk outside. I think it's really important just to, to move because I feel like we're so disconnected and I think too, when you're disconnected in your home, and I'm like, hold up working all day, I'm not having any social interaction at all except for with people in my head, which means I'm kind of crazy, so I need to go out and so I have to leave the house, go out and make sure that I have that time for myself. And I think so many authors hit burnout this day and age. Like you see so many authors that burn out because they're just like pumping out books, but they're not taking that time for themselves. They're not taking that time to even read or to, or to be outside or to take vacation. And I know I'm preaching to the choir because I'm, I have to remind myself of this every day. But that's why it has to become a habit because you need that time for yourself to relax. Passionistas: Is there one lesson that you've learned on your journey so far that really sticks with you? Rachel: The biggest lesson I've learned that I continue to tell myself every day is that even if it's just one person that is impacted by your words, but maybe they were suicidal or maybe they've gone through a death in their family. Maybe they have, they're going through anxiety but anxiety a lot. Then it's worth it. Like it is worth your time, 100% to write that book and to put it out there, even if it just one person buys it because that means that one person needed it at that time. And so I think when sales are down or when you're bummed about a book release or when you know you see someone else doing really well and you're excited, but you're also like, but why? Why do I suck? I don't, I don't get it. Like, you need to know that that's so important. And I always pray that I'm brought that person. So especially because I think it helps us authors to just understand that like these people are out there like needing these words. Like yes it's romance, but we put so much in these books that, you know, we're so intense, we deal with really intense situations and we use romance, we use comedy to kind of help people out of them. But that reading is an escape. And so no matter what you're providing that escape and that safe place for someone and I think that's really important. Passionistas: What's the biggest risk you've taken in your career and how has it paid off? Rachel: I think the biggest risk was quitting my job. Um, I quit my job when I, I mean I had nothing in savings. I had just used my first, then my very first Facebook ad the year before that for 50 bucks. So that's all I had. I mean, we were literally living from paycheck to paycheck off $21,000 a year because my husband had just gotten, he was a commercial diver. And you get a great job. And then he, they almost killed him. He almost died. He was drowned and it was like three months after we were married. And so it was a huge risk because I was the breadwinner and I had my MBA at the time and I had just gotten a brand new job that was paying like double and I was like, yeah, you believe in it. Okay, it's cheaper. But I was like, yes. Um, but I hated that job and I would come, I loved the kids I worked with, but I was a manager and I would come home and the boss, the one boss above me was just so stressed out all the time. And, and I would, she would keep me there until 10 o'clock at night, you know, so I'm getting up and I'm driving there at eight. And so I was working crazy days, but I was on salary, so it didn't matter. You know what I mean? Um, I wasn't getting to spend time with him. And then I was writing for like three hours a night. So I was getting no sleep because I just had to do it. Like it was my passion and I had just hit the USA today list on my last Regency series. And so I was making okay money with my royalties, but I was like, I just can't, like I can't, I need to do this full force. And so I quit my job and started writing full time with him. Also, you know, just, we started another business, started a publishing house in Indy house under his name and just kind of went full force at it. Passionistas: What's your definition of success? Rachel: Success is going to bed at night knowing you got done that day. Everything you needed to get done, even if that means you just brushed your hair. I had a really hard time when I just had my son because I was used to having like 12 hours a day to finish a book and I'd read like 17,000 words a day. Like I was just crazy. And then all of a sudden it was like, okay, well I'm trying to nurse and then I'm trying to like, I can't type one handed. And I was like, how do I, you know, cause he's a boy. So he thought he was hungry every hour of course. And I was like, no formula. And then finally I was like, we're done here. We're going to get formula. Cause I just couldn't deal with any cause I was trying to work. And then you panic about finances and you're like, okay, well I have to get this book out or if I'm, if I'm late on this deal. And so for me the biggest thing was like understanding, and this, my sister helped with this. She was like, did you brush your hair? And I was like, yeah, actually I did good. You got mascara on. And I was like, I actually got mascara on today. And she's like, congratulations. You have a successful day. Like did you get breakfast? Like you have to look at every single victory is like, even if it's small is a victory. Um, so it's not even about money. It's not about my book at the time. So we looked at this like, I think it's, you have to look at the tiny, tiny, tiny things because then when the big things happen, it's even more epic. But if they don't, you don't go to bed like, Oh, what was me, you know, you can still celebrate what you've accomplished and what you've done. And I seriously have to tell myself that on a daily basis because in my husband, again, his radar reminded me, cause I'll be like, Ugh, but I didn't get this. He was like, but did you get this done? And so that's kind of like switching your focus to not what I didn't do, but what I did do. And then even writing those things down, which I've done, put on sticky notes around it and like killed it. I killed it today. So I think that's so important and it's something that I struggle with still, but it's good. Passionistas: What advice would you give to a young woman who wants to be a writer? Rachel: My advice is write, write, write, write, write. I think, uh, and even if you're writing 27 different manuscripts or if you're, you know, working on just one, it makes sure that you write it and finish it. There's so many people that have like, I've been writing a book for 10 years and I'm like, no, but a lot of times that's because we never think we're good enough. It comes back to that security thing. You think it's not good enough or I'm going to compare it to, to Christina Lauren. No, like they're, they're amazing writing duo, but you're new. Like you can't compare yourself. You know what I mean? It's not fair to you. It's not fair to them. So making sure that you're continuing to write and hone your craft, but do not go back and delete what you've already written because a lot of times what you put down the most raw is the most real, like the most, the stuff that's going to impact people the most. And I can honestly say my worst selling books are ones that my publisher had me rewrite that I took out all my original stuff that I really loved that made it special and then it just made it like anything else. And I think that that is something that writers need to remember. That's like the best advice I can give. Passionistas: Do you have a mantra that you live by? Rachel: My mantra is actually from Joyce Meyer and I, it inspired me to write a book and it's "Do it afraid." So it's like anytime you're, you know, it's not no fear. It's even if you're afraid you can still take a step and do something. And I think that's so important. It's because I've had a lot of really intimidating situations where I'm like, what do I do? My husband's always reminding me, he's like, do it afraid. Just do it. Like it doesn't matter. You can do it and still feel that fear, but don't let that fear define you. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Rachel Van Dyken. To learn more about all of her books, including "Fashion Jungle," visit RachelVanDykenAuthor.com. Please visit the PassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and new subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list to get 10% off your first purchase, and be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:　VOA英语每日一听Matt: So, Rachel, where are you from?Rachel: I'm from Scotland.Matt: Okay, Okay. Scotland like, what's the biggest city in Scotland would you say?Rachel: The capitol city is Edinburgh but the biggest city, size-wise and population-wsseis Glasgow.Matt: Okay and you lived in ...? Did you live in one of those two cities?Rachel: My grandparents lived in Edinburgh and I lived in Glasgow for quite awhile at university.Matt: Okay. I'm under the impression that there's a lot of rain in that area. Is that true or?Rachel: Yeah, pretty much.Matt: Yeah, we both come from rainy climates.Rachel: Yeah, the West Coast of Scotland gets more rain that the east coast, so it's Glasgow that gets more rain than Edinburgh but Edinburgh has this very bitter cold wind, and it's really chilly.Matt: All year round or just in the winter?Rachel: No, pretty much all year round. Yeah.Matt: Interesting. Tell me about Glasgow. What kind of city is it?Rachel: Glasgow? When I was a kid was actually sort of very rundown[詳細報告], and it used to be famous for boat building and industry. But yeah, when I was a kid, I mean it was famous for being a very rough town and lots of unemployment. Lots of social problems, and then it just went through a kind of renaissance[復興] and got lots of money from the European Union and then the town just totally transformed. When I go back it's so different.Matt: How is it different? Is it like more of a center for art than it was? Or is it ...? Like what's different?Rachel: It did become a city of culture. And I think that reflects the sort of liveliness of the people of Glasgow. Like they're just, they have such a good sense of humor. They're very friendly. Quite different from Edinburgh where they're much more reserved I think.Matt: People are a little uptight.Rachel: Yes, yes, so .. not uptight but they're not so friendly as Glaswegians.Matt: Glaswegians!Rachel: Yes.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:　VOA英语每日一听Matt: So, Rachel, where are you from?Rachel: I'm from Scotland.Matt: Okay, Okay. Scotland like, what's the biggest city in Scotland would you say?Rachel: The capitol city is Edinburgh but the biggest city, size-wise and population-wsseis Glasgow.Matt: Okay and you lived in ...? Did you live in one of those two cities?Rachel: My grandparents lived in Edinburgh and I lived in Glasgow for quite awhile at university.Matt: Okay. I'm under the impression that there's a lot of rain in that area. Is that true or?Rachel: Yeah, pretty much.Matt: Yeah, we both come from rainy climates.Rachel: Yeah, the West Coast of Scotland gets more rain that the east coast, so it's Glasgow that gets more rain than Edinburgh but Edinburgh has this very bitter cold wind, and it's really chilly.Matt: All year round or just in the winter?Rachel: No, pretty much all year round. Yeah.Matt: Interesting. Tell me about Glasgow. What kind of city is it?Rachel: Glasgow? When I was a kid was actually sort of very rundown[詳細報告], and it used to be famous for boat building and industry. But yeah, when I was a kid, I mean it was famous for being a very rough town and lots of unemployment. Lots of social problems, and then it just went through a kind of renaissance[復興] and got lots of money from the European Union and then the town just totally transformed. When I go back it's so different.Matt: How is it different? Is it like more of a center for art than it was? Or is it ...? Like what's different?Rachel: It did become a city of culture. And I think that reflects the sort of liveliness of the people of Glasgow. Like they're just, they have such a good sense of humor. They're very friendly. Quite different from Edinburgh where they're much more reserved I think.Matt: People are a little uptight.Rachel: Yes, yes, so .. not uptight but they're not so friendly as Glaswegians.Matt: Glaswegians!Rachel: Yes.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:　VOA英语每日一听Matt: So, Rachel, where are you from?Rachel: I'm from Scotland.Matt: Okay, Okay. Scotland like, what's the biggest city in Scotland would you say?Rachel: The capitol city is Edinburgh but the biggest city, size-wise and population-wsseis Glasgow.Matt: Okay and you lived in ...? Did you live in one of those two cities?Rachel: My grandparents lived in Edinburgh and I lived in Glasgow for quite awhile at university.Matt: Okay. I'm under the impression that there's a lot of rain in that area. Is that true or?Rachel: Yeah, pretty much.Matt: Yeah, we both come from rainy climates.Rachel: Yeah, the West Coast of Scotland gets more rain that the east coast, so it's Glasgow that gets more rain than Edinburgh but Edinburgh has this very bitter cold wind, and it's really chilly.Matt: All year round or just in the winter?Rachel: No, pretty much all year round. Yeah.Matt: Interesting. Tell me about Glasgow. What kind of city is it?Rachel: Glasgow? When I was a kid was actually sort of very rundown[詳細報告], and it used to be famous for boat building and industry. But yeah, when I was a kid, I mean it was famous for being a very rough town and lots of unemployment. Lots of social problems, and then it just went through a kind of renaissance[復興] and got lots of money from the European Union and then the town just totally transformed. When I go back it's so different.Matt: How is it different? Is it like more of a center for art than it was? Or is it ...? Like what's different?Rachel: It did become a city of culture. And I think that reflects the sort of liveliness of the people of Glasgow. Like they're just, they have such a good sense of humor. They're very friendly. Quite different from Edinburgh where they're much more reserved I think.Matt: People are a little uptight.Rachel: Yes, yes, so .. not uptight but they're not so friendly as Glaswegians.Matt: Glaswegians!Rachel: Yes.

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ Guest:                         Barbara Craft                                    From the series:       Resurrection Eggs: Creatively Sharing Christ (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: In 1994, a grandmother by the name of Barbara Craft heard about a way to use plastic Easter eggs to share the Easter story with friends, neighbors and children. She fell in love with the idea. Barbara: The idea that I like about this is you're getting the Bible in front of them—you're getting the Word of God. This is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. This is something—they may remember the donkey, the nails—but it's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 2nd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. We will hear some FamilyLife Today history today as we hear about the first time Barbara Craft shared with us the idea for what became Resurrection Eggs®. Stay tuned. 1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We have people who will pull us aside, from time to time; and they'll say to us: “You know who you guys ought to interview? You ought to have so-and-so as a guest on your program.” We often get some great recommendations from listeners who suggest someone that we ought to talk to. Dennis: We do. I agree. Bob: We try to dig and say: “Okay, what would our listeners be most interested in? What would be most helpful? What is the best kind of practical, biblical help we can give them related to marriage and family?”  I remember when somebody on our staff, more than 20 years ago, pulled me aside and said, “Do you know who you ought to interview?” And they told me about a grandma, who was on staff, here at FamilyLife. I have to confess to you, I thought, “Yeahhh, we're probably not going to do an interview with a grandma who's on staff.” You know? 2:00 Dennis: This is not just any grandma. This is Barbara Craft. She is a woman of the Word. She is a wife, a mom, a grandmother who has taken her role seriously. When she found out about a way to be able to bring the reality of Easter into her family—but also the families of her neighbors—she jumped all over it. Bob: This was a craft project she put together: —a basket full of plastic eggs—each one with a symbol of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Dennis: There must have been 25 to 30 different eggs in the basket that she brought in. Bob: I just thought: “How are we going to talk about plastic eggs on a radio program? People can't see it. It's a nice idea—“ Dennis: Well, we always are interested in helping families have an outreach to others. Bob: And that's ultimately why we decided, “Let's go ahead and have Barbara on.” I remember thinking, in the back of my mind, “You know, if the interview doesn't go well, we don't have to use it.” Well, the interview went fine; didn't it? 3:00 Dennis: It went so well, in fact—just a little bit more to the story. I don't remember exactly how it occurred; but as we were interviewing her, it all made so much sense. Somehow, we put our heads together and said: “You know, we really can't put these eggs in a basket and ship them in the mail to listeners who want them. I would think people would like to have a dozen of these eggs of their own.”  We thought: “What if you took a carton and filled it full of these eggs—with the objects that are in them that tell the story of Easter—that help a mom and dad, grandma / grandpa, or help a young family share Christ in their neighborhood with the world's largest Easter egg party? What if we had something like that?” Well, we put together a few of them— Bob: We put together 3,000 sets. Dennis: Were you out there? Bob: I was not out there. Dennis: I was out there—at our kids' junior high cafeteria. We worked all Saturday. I prayed over those 3,000 sets—I said, “Lord, God, I pray these don't end up in our warehouse for the next 20 or 30 years.” 4:00 Bob: We were putting little donkeys into one egg, and putting coins in another egg. Dennis: A rock representing the stone that was put in front of Christ's grave in another, and then, of course, there was the easiest one to assemble of all—which had nothing in it. Bob: That's right, the empty egg which represents the tomb. And here's the thing—we did the 3,000 sets; and we also made available a list so, if anybody wanted to create their own set, they could just—“Here, you need to find a donkey, and you need to find a little pebble, you need to find the coins…” and all that. “Get your own plastic eggs.” Well, we had people calling us saying, “We want multiple sets of those.” Those 3,000 were gone like that! That first year, we wound up assembling an additional 7,000 to send out to our listeners. Dennis: And I'm going to tell our listeners—I was not there on the second Saturday they had to be assembled. In fact, I think we found someone—a bunch of teenagers to be able to—[Laughter] 5:00 Bob: [Laughter] You scheduled a weekend out of town when you heard that was happening, as I remember. Well, today, we thought it would be fun for our listeners to go back and hear that very first interview, from 20 years ago, when Barbara Craft—that grandmother who was on staff, here at FamilyLife—came into the studio and brought the very first Resurrection Eggs that we had ever seen. [Recorded Interview] Dennis: Our table is covered with eggs here. It's really quite festive here, Bob. Tell us: “What do all these eggs represent, Barbara?” and, “How did you come up with the idea of teaching about Easter through an object lesson like eggs?” Barbara: Well, I didn't come up with the idea. I'm not a creative-type person. I'm one that sees an idea and I can go with it. I was in our home, teaching ladies how to do a craft project—using paper bags and paper twists—and making this soft, frilly basket that you see in front of here now.  6:00 Well, we were making the baskets. One of the girls mentioned this story of telling the Easter story with eggs. I had never heard about it. The next thing I knew she sent me a paper. It had just some Scriptures and things that you can use and put inside a plastic egg and tell the Easter story. Right away, I started making baskets for my neighbors—making sets of eggs from this craft project, and putting them in there, and just giving them out to whomever I could. Dennis: And what you've done here—you've composed a list that starts with, really, Palm Sunday and objects associated with that. You've just followed, chronologically, all the events of Easter and the verses that accompany them. You've selected objects that illustrate each of those events. Let me just pull out one of these eggs here—this one here—[jingling sound]—three dimes. Okay, Barbara, what does that represent? 7:00 Barbara: Well, that represents the 30 pieces of silver that Judas betrayed Christ for. Dennis: And out, beside that, you've got Matthew 27:3-5 so the children—or for that matter, the adults—are getting the opportunity to go to the Scripture to really study the Easter story. Barbara: Yes. Bob: I bet kids would have a great time figuring out what each thing inside the egg represents. Barbara: I did it in a Sunday school class of three- and four-year-olds at our church. I hid the eggs, and then they came in. Of course, there's that adventure of finding the eggs. All the eggs have a number on them. Then, we sat around in a circle; and they would give me their egg, starting with number one. We would open it up, and then I would ask them what it was.  Again, this was three- and four-year-olds—they were so still. Of course, they are just so excited because they want to open their eggs. They want you to hurry up and get to theirs.  8:00 And then they wanted to hide them again. They wanted to do it again, and again, and the hour was gone. The idea that I like about this is—you're getting the Bible in front of them. You're getting the Word of God—this is not just a story. We're using great things to tell a story. It's a way of engraving the Word on their heart and fulfilling Deuteronomy 6—you know, it says to talk about these things when you get up / when you're sitting in your house. This is, to me, what this project does. Dennis: I think there is a great need today, in Christian families, to do more than just crack open this Book; but to get our kids diving into it afresh—discovering their own insights and talking about the relevance of these objects in their lives today. “What is the symbolism of the nails and the verse that goes along with that?”—Christ's death on the cross. We have hope because of this—and bringing that hope to our kids—and maybe even using these eggs as an opportunity to lead your kids to Christ. 9:00 Barbara: And then, when you come to this empty egg—and again, that representing that He is no longer in that tomb—and then telling them: “Where is He today? He is seated at the right hand of the Father.” Dennis: I think it is so easy to just assume our kids understand redemption: “What sent Jesus to the cross? Why did He have to die?” It was our sin—our breaking of God's law—our fallen nature that sent Christ to the cross—and really created a need for God to step out of eternity, in His Son, to redeem us back to Himself and to write our names in heaven. Barbara: What you have just done is what I'm hoping that this project will do. Having something like this that you can see and touch—it is fun, and it has a powerful message to each one. Dennis: It really does. Barbara Craft, you have helped us, today, to be able to focus on that message. 10:00 I want to thank you for doing that because we can make Easter a profoundly simple and yet powerful spiritual experience—not only for us—but for our children, as well, and pass on a legacy to the next generation. Barbara Rainey: One of the things that I think is neat about this is that there are different applications for using it. For instance, you could use it like an Advent wreath at Christmas—and use one egg per day or one object and verse per day—leading up to Easter. Or you could take the ones and just use them for the particular event the week of Easter, starting with the triumphal entry on the Sunday before. Then, you could use the objects that happened on the Thursday before Easter, and then the ones that illustrate what happened on Good Friday, and you could walk your way through Easter week.  I think that there are lots of different ways that a family could use this, depending on the ages of your children or how you wanted to celebrate Easter together. You could talk this through and try one one year and try another another year, and see what works best for your family.  11:00 Barbara: I think that is right—and if you have them all out—where they can see them during the day, and touch them, and play with them, or whatever they're going to do with this—then, again, they're reminded of the Scripture: “What does this sword represent, to me, about Easter?” Or you could do that sometime during the day—again, asking, “Well, what do you remember about that sword we talked about three days ago?” It's just that continual remembering and reminding that we're so often told to do in Scripture. We don't remember it the first time. Barbara Rainey: Right. Bob: During the Easter season, a family could use these eggs to really spark their family devotions, whether it's at breakfast every morning—having a different egg on the table and opening it up, talking about what's in there, reading the Scripture. Maybe, at dinner or after dinner—go in the living room and have it—but it would just be a great way to give children a visual connection with the story so they're not just hearing it told; but they're seeing it with the symbols, right there, before them. Barbara: Maybe, you could hide the egg. There's always that—children love that element of seeking and finding. So, maybe— 12:00 Dennis: What do you mean—“children”?  [Laughter] I love to go on scavenger hunts. Barbara: Yes, I do, too. I do, too. You can hide an egg someplace; and whoever finds it that day could tell the story—that evening, at dinner. They could tell the Scripture that's with that. There's just a variety—I love hearing this creativity. That's what I am just hoping is going to come about as a result of this. [Studio] Bob: Well, we've been back in the archives, listening to a program recorded more than 20 years ago. Dennis: With a friend—a dear, dear beloved friend, Barbara Craft. Bob: It's good to hear her voice; isn't it? Dennis: It is. It is, and she couldn't have fathomed that this would go on to see more than 1.5 million dozen of these eggs distributed, all the way around the world. Bob: If she could have fathomed that, she would have come in and said, “Let me show you my copyrighted Resurrection Eggs.” [Laughter] Dennis: No, I don't think she would have. Barbara was all about outreach—wanting to share Christ with people. Bob: She was. Dennis: That's what prompted her in the first place.  13:00 Not long after we had Barbara here in the studio, we made a phone call to another grandmother. This grandmother may have been interested in sharing the eggs with her grandchildren; but it ended up sounding, to me, like that she was really excited about sharing them with her adult children. Bob: Yes. Her name is Cindy. She's a friend of Barbara Craft's. Barbara had shared the idea with her. So, we called her and said, “Tell us what you thought about the Resurrection Eggs.” [Recorded Interview] Cindy: When Barbara asked me if I would like these, I thought, “This is kind of hokey, but I like the idea.” And she had gone to so much trouble. So, I took them; and then, after I had them—when Easter came, I thought, “This is how I can do something in the center of my table after we come home from lunch.” I just decorated the table with them, and they didn't ask too many questions about it. When it was over, I just said, “We have a game we're going to play.”  14:00 I said: “The eggs all have numbers on them. As you turn them up, we need to try to decide, whatever is in the egg: ‘What does that represent that has to do with the biblical account of Jesus' resurrection?'” I was amazed at how they enjoyed it. They had a great time with it. So, that is something that— I know now I can have on my table every Easter, and it won't make any difference. It will be wonderful now when the little ones can come and participate. But no, I used it with adult children. And they didn't know what all of them were. It took a little while; but even one of my children—that is not so much in church now, but very well-trained—he enjoyed that. I thought, “That is not cramming it down their throat.” Bob: Yes. Dennis: Cindy, I want to thank you for being on FamilyLife Today and sharing your story with us. Cindy: You're quite welcome. Bye-bye. 15:00 [Studio] Bob: That's a phone call we made 20 years ago to a grandma who was using Resurrection Eggs—not with her grandchildren—but with her adult children. Just in case listeners were wondering, the other voice they heard there was a young Dennis Rainey. [Laughter] Dennis: It did sound a lot younger; didn't it? [Laughter] There's another phone call we made to Leah. She had three daughters that she wanted to share the story of Easter with. Bob: And this became a tradition for her family. [Recorded Interview] Leah: I've been just mesmerized; and to this day, we've done it for probably four years—it's kind of a tradition. Bob: Now, how old were the girls the first time y'all did this? Leah: Probably two, four, and six. Bob: Do you do it on Easter? Leah: No, we kind of use the week before Easter to prepare our hearts to worship the risen Lord on Sunday. So, it's not just Sunday that we worship on and observe Easter. Dennis: Leah, how do you involve your husband, Gene, in the process of sharing the eggs with your children? 16:00 Leah: Well, one thing that is really neat to do is Gene will hide the eggs in a certain room, and have the children find the eggs. That way, it makes the story of Jesus' resurrection a treasure to find. If they find the eggs, that's their reward—the Word of God is their reward. It's just a very creative way to share the Easter story with children because they love to see what's inside of something. In one of the eggs is a nail. You read to your child about how they nailed Jesus to the cross. They would take that—and I remember my five-year-old—her face. She went, “Whoa, Mommy!” to see a nail. Then, they would place it on their hands—on the inside of their little palms—just to see what that felt like. [Emotion in voice]  17:00 I think that the nail is the most powerful item in the eggs—that visual that you can hold in your hand. You can feel it and to see it. It's very powerful. I think that it just brings it home, and it brings the understanding to a deeper level for a child. Bob: I want to talk to your kids. Leah: Oh, you do. Okay. Bob: Yes. Why don't we start with Rebekah? Rebekah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Rebekah. How are you? Rebekah: Fine, thank you. How are you? Bob: I'm fine. Listen, we wanted to talk to you. You know the special Easter eggs that your mommy has? Rebekah: Yes. Bob: Tell me what they are. Rebekah: Well, there are ten eggs, and they all tell the story. There will be a little paragraph that she says—that's a Bible verse. Then, we'll take turns reading it. One would be—it'd say, “He died on the cross,” and there'd be a wooden cross, or “Feed my sheep,” and there'd be a little lamb. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Rebekah, this is Mr. Rainey. Do you really like going through those eggs? 18:00 Rebekah: Yes! Bob: Can we talk to Rachel? Rebekah: Sure; one moment. Rachel: Hello? Dennis: Rachel. Rachel: Yes. Dennis: This is Mr. Rainey. How are you doing today? Rachel: Fine. Dennis: Your mom did something last Easter with some eggs. Do you remember that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Tell us about them. What do you do with those eggs? Rachel: Well, she'll read a verse, and we'll open it up, and see what's inside. Dennis: Like, what will be inside? Rachel: Like the cross where Jesus died, and like the empty egg. Dennis: Do you really like to do that? Rachel: Yes. Dennis: Why? Rachel: It's fun. Bob: Does it get boring when your parents bring out those eggs, or do you like it? Rachel: I like it. Bob: But, don't they make you sit down and listen? Rachel: Yes. Bob: But that's okay? Rachel: Yes! Bob: Tell you what. Can we talk to Sarah? Rachel: Sure. Bob: Okay, thanks. Sarah: Hello? Bob: Hi, Sarah? Sarah: Hi. Bob: How are you? Sarah: Fine. Bob: Are you? Do you know Mr. Rainey? Sarah: Yes. 19:00 Bob: Do you? Okay. Dennis: Hi, Sarah. This is Mr. Rainey. Do you remember the Easter eggs that your mom uses every year? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Do you like them? Sarah: Yes, sir. Dennis: Why do you like them? Sarah: Because they're fun to open. Bob: What kinds of things does she put in those eggs? Sarah: Money, the cross, a nail, the empty egg. Bob: You remember a lot of them. Sarah, can we talk to your mommy again? Sarah: Okay. Bob: Thanks. Dennis: Bye-bye. Leah: Hello? Bob: We'll probably have some listeners who will think about doing this with their kids at Easter time. Would you encourage them to? Leah: I really would! It's just such a simple but impactful way to share the Easter story—a creative way / a different way. Dennis: Well, Leah—thanks for being on the broadcast. Leah: Oh, sure. Bye-bye. [Studio] Bob: Well, again, it's fun to go back and listen to some of the early phone calls we made when we were first talking to moms about the idea of a set of eggs that they could use during Easter week to tell their children the story of the resurrection. 20:00 Dennis: It worked back then, and it's working today. We just decided we would take the resource and re-release it with a 20th Anniversary Edition. I think what was already excellent, and outstanding, and a whole lot of fun has really been moved up a notch. It's cool because the booklet that goes with the eggs is available both in English and Spanish. Bob: In fact, look at the back of your carton there—Resurrection Eggs—can you read what it says there on the back? Dennis: Not upside down. Bob: Look. Read that out loud to our listeners. Dennis: Are you talking about the English, of course; aren't you? Bob: Huevitos de Resurreccion™—so Resurrection Eggs. The carton comes with both English and Spanish so that listeners can use it in either setting. Dennis: Bob is flaunting two things there—one, his experience from San Antonio— Bob: Huevitos. 21:00 Dennis: There you go; and secondly, he's also reminding me of my Spanish and the grade I received. Bob: What grade did you get in Spanish? [Laughter] Dennis: It was in eighth grade—that was the year. Gratefully, they did pass me on to the ninth grade—but not because I excelled in the language of Spanish. Bob: I don't think you've said the grade yet. What was that grade that you got? Dennis: It was south of “D.” [Laughter] Bob: We, of course, have Resurrection Eggs in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. Our listeners can go, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com to order a set of these eggs to use, this year, at Easter time. Or if you live near a Christian bookstore, many Christian bookstores have Resurrection Eggs. I know Family Christian Store has them—I think Lifeway and Mardel have them. There are even Walmart®s, across America, that have Resurrection Eggs this year at Easter—just a great tool to use to share the story of Easter with children, with neighbors, with relatives.  22:00 Find out more. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. The information about Resurrection Eggs is available right there. You can order from us online. There is also information about the resources Barbara Rainey has been creating that can be used at Easter time to, not only share the story of Easter, but to beautifully decorate your home for the holiday, as well. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the link that says, “Go Deeper,” at the top left-hand corner of the page. There is information about these resources there. You can order from us, online; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY; 1-800-358-6329; that's 1-800- “F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then, the word, “TODAY.” Now, let me say a special word of thanks to those of you who are regular listeners to FamilyLife Today and have listened long enough to know that what we're all about, as a ministry, resonates with what you believe, as a family.  23:00 We are here to provide practical biblical help for your marriage and your family. We believe that if we can effectively develop godly families, those godly families can change the world, one home at a time. And we appreciate those of you who share in that mission and who help support the mission through your prayers and your financial contributions. If you can help us with a donation right now, we'd like to send you, as a thank-you gift, a set of three prayer cards—one that will give you specifics on how to pray more effectively for your husband, another card on how to pray for your wife, and then a third card for the two of you to use together to pray for your children. These are our way of saying: “Thank you for your support of the ministry. We really do appreciate your partnership.” Simply go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Click the button in the upper right-hand corner of the screen that says, “I Care.” You can make an online contribution; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY—1-800-358-6329. Make a donation over the phone, and ask for the prayer cards when you do that. 24:00 Or request the prayer cards and mail a check to FamilyLife Today at P O Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Tomorrow, we'll hear more from people who have used Resurrection Eggs as a way to share the news of Easter with friends and family members. We'll talk more about that tomorrow. I hope you can join us. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow. We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2014 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

My guest today is Rachel Price. Rachel works as a Senior Information Architect at Microsoft and teaches Information Architecture at the School of Visual Concepts in Seattle. Her background is in music, and in this episode we talk about how structures can serve as a foundation for improvisation. Listen to the full conversation https://theinformeddotlife.files.wordpress.com/2019/09/the-informed-life-episode-17-rachel-price.mp3   Show notes Rachel Price on LinkedIn Rachel Price on Twitter School of Visual Concepts Magic Eye optical illusions The Informed Life Episode 11: Lisa Welchman on Governance Improvisation: Methods and Models by Jeff Pressing (PDF) Free Play: Improvisation in Life and Art, by Stephen Nachmanovitch New York Times iOS app Screen Time on iOS How to Use App Limits and Downtime in iOS 12 Kind of Blue by Miles Davis Read the full transcript Jorge: Rachel, welcome to the show. Rachel: Thank you for having me. Jorge: Well, it's really great having you here. For folks who don't know who you are, would you introduce yourself, please? Rachel: Sure. So I'm Rachel Price. I am a senior information architect at Microsoft out here in Seattle. I'm also an instructor at the School of Visual Concepts here in Seattle. And then on top of that all I'm a musician. I'm actually a Jazz saxophonist. Jorge: Wow, that's awesome. What are you teaching? Rachel: So right now I teach information architecture at SVC, which is part of a UX certificate program. So I'm teaching really introductory students the world of IA in about six weeks, one night a week. It's a whirlwind. Jorge: That's fantastic. I'm very curious to know what you tell them. Like, how do you introduce information architecture? Rachel: Oh, man. I try to really focus on one really huge concept in many many different ways over the weeks, and that concept is teaching them how to see the world as an information environment and kind of see past that surface level of how many beginning students think of UX or design as just kind of the visual level. So the very first thing we start with is breaking experiences down into information objects. Admittedly, I use a lot of your quotes and I put your head in a tiny little bubble on a lot of screens to help kind of contextualize a lot of the stuff we're doing. But we practice just breaking places and things down into kind of information objects that make them up and the metaphor I use that whole time is like those… Do you remember those Mind's Eye puzzles, where you kind of have to cross your eyes or like look past the puzzle to see the 3D image pop out? Jorge: Yes, I do. Rachel: Yeah. So what I tell my students who are trusting me that all it will all make sense at some point is that we're learning how to kind of look past the surface of things like websites and apps and most of the things we end up building as UX designers and see kind of what's under that service and see those objects really start to pop out. So we do a lot of exercises around developing that vision. And if by the end of six weeks that were the only thing I accomplished with them is their ability to see information objects in the wild, then I'm super happy about that. Jorge: I had not thought of this metaphor with those puzzles. I'm curious. I haven't seen those in a long time, that was… If my memory serves, that was around the early to mid-90s, no? Rachel: I think so. I remember… I feel like I was about, yeah, 10 or 12 when I was playing with them. So far, I haven't had anyone look at me completely confused about what I mean by that but I imagine as I keep teaching I might find a generational gap there. Jorge: So are we talking… Are these like college level students? Rachel: Students who are trying to switch careers. So maybe they finished an undergraduate degree a year or two or five ago and have decided they really want to get into UX design. The School of Visual Concepts has a lot of different programs to help people get into different types of careers. I think it actually started as a way to help people get into artistic careers. I'm not quite sure if that's where they started, I should have reviewed that before starting this sentence. But really it's for people who are interested in exploring different avenues of creative expression. And then also I know they have this UX certificate. Because as you know in Seattle, we have a glut of UX jobs open and there is just a lot of room for new people to enter the field. And so SVC is one of the schools that's trying to kind of do right by students and help them get prepared for that. Jorge: I can easily see how this subject that you're teaching there connects to your job. Just judging from your title, senior information architect. But I'm wondering, you also mentioned that you're a musician, and I was wondering how, if any, that connects. Rachel: That's such a good question and it's frankly one I've been trying to answer for several years now. So I graduated — my undergrad, the music degree — playing jazz saxophone. And like many others in my generation, I graduated right into the recession so… And even not in a recession, you know, being a musician doesn't always pay bills unless you're one of the elite, right? And so, I ended up to kind of help pay my rent, I ended up working in SEO for digital marketing agencies and from there I decided I wanted to pursue my Masters in Library Sciences. So I moved out to Seattle to get my Masters in Library and Information Sciences and discovered IA and became an IA. So the question is really where's the connection? And I've been trying to answer that for quite some time and I think in the last year I've started seeing this pattern where I've been doing a lot of thinking about improvisation and how the ways we learn improvisation as Jazz musicians, there's a framework to it. There are ways to learn improvisation, you know people tend to think it's just this free-for-all or you're either really good at it or you're not and it's just this unpredictable kind of chaos, and the reality is that's not actually true. Improvisation is patterns unfolding over time. And when I started to think about improvisation as this pattern unfolding, seeing patterns everywhere, making connections, developing skill sets so that you can make decisions on the fly, it started to become really clear to me that there's a pretty strong relationship between that kind of thinking and the kind of thinking that we do in IA or UX. I don't think it's any coincidence a lot of people in this field are also musicians. Jorge: Yes, I've had a previous guest on the show — Lisa Welchman — who is also a musician and funny enough, this subject of improvisation within a framework came up as well there. So there is something there. Now, hearing you talk about it, it reminded me when I was a student, I was… I studied architecture, and one of the very first things that I learned, the very first semester I was in school, and which kind of blew my mind, was the notion that creativity thrives on constraints. Rachel: Absolutely. Jorge: I'm wondering if you can elaborate on this theme of improvisation within a framework as it relates to music. Rachel: Yeah, so, I mean there's all flavors of improvisation, you know. Performing musicians prefer different kinds. There is totally free improv, which is completely… Well, mostly outside of a framework beyond call and response, and it's like having a totally open conversation with no goal or theme in mind. But there are more traditional forms of improvisation, when you play over like a set of chord changes, right? The chord changes are the heart of a song. Song has a melody, which is the string of notes that is kind of the core theme of the song, like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, you know, you've got this melody going on. And then under the melody, you've got chord changes, which is just a progression a series of chords that the pianist is playing or the guitar player is playing that set the context for the boundaries of the song and how the song feels and generally how it sounds. When you improvise, you're playing over those chord changes. And what that means is that there's this framework that you're playing inside of, of notes that'll go really well, notes that will be really crazy and dissonant, you've got guide tones in the chords, which are like these little milestones and landmarks for you to land on that really set the context for the notes that you're choosing, you've got song forms, which tell you where you are in a song and how many times it's repeating and that sort of thing. So the improvisation is really making a series of choices about what note to play at a given time, but it's in reaction to a bunch of other input. There's a theory of improvisation in terms of the cognitive aspects of improvisation, I believe was developed by Jeff Pressing in the 80s. That is pretty straightforward. It's improvisation is some sort of sensory input goes into the central nervous system at that point if the player uses all these connections in their head, schemas that they know really well, patterns that they know really well, kind of tools or tricks that they know really well, they make connections. They make a snap decision about what to play. Then they actually play it and then the whole loop starts over again. So now they've created sensory input for someone else or for themselves, and it's just this recruitment repeating cycle of iteration. And so I think that that way of thinking about — it's not necessarily like constraints, things you can't do — but it's this framework of things that are guiding you and giving you context around maybe what makes the most sense or what would sound really cool or what sounds really bizarre if that's what you're trying to do. And so it's this idea that improvisation is not happening in a vacuum, right? There's all sorts of input going into it. Beyond just the notes are choosing to play. Jorge: How does that play out with information architecture work? Rachel: I think this can apply in a lot of different ways. The way I'm currently focusing on it, to me, a really direct parallel is how we talk to people and how in IA a lot of that boils down to user research. Right? It became pretty clear to me when I start thinking about this that when we do user research and were interviewing people, it's this kind of abstract situation or… Not abstract, but kind of ambiguous, right? We don't necessarily know what's going to happen when we talk to people. We don't really know what their mental models are going to be. We don't know how they're going to answer questions, if they're going to understand us. It can be this challenging experience. But so much rides on it because so much of the decisions we make as IAs needs to be based on what people need for my structures and how they understand the world that we're building for them. And so what I'm working on now without giving the whole thing away is actually this is a talk I'll be giving at EuroIA is, how we can use improvisation techniques that jazz musicians use — because they have all these tools and tricks of the trade — and actually employ those to become better research facilitators. I think a lot of what we know about research facilitation today kind of relies on you have this palette of question types, you can ask which is really helpful you've got all these things you can do to prepare for the research, but it's really really hard to practice being comfortable in a conversation with a total stranger which is itself an act of improvisation. You know, I think we're all improvisers when we talk to people and then when you're in a research setting and you're interviewing people, you're improvising with a lot of pressure on you to get the right information and ask the right questions and that can be really heavy feeling. So I think using improvisation, this improvisation framework is a way to think about how we interview people whether that's users. It could be interviewing stakeholders. It could be working through a tough meeting with your team. I think these are all really applicable things. Jorge: When you mentioned user research and this notion of improvisation… I've been in user research sessions where the researchers go in with a script for what they want to ask folks, and some researchers want to be very by the book and stick to the script. Right? And that would be, in my mind, using this analogy, it would be something like playing a piece of classical music where it's all written out for you. Whereas you could also use the script as kind of tent poles or points that you want to hit if you get the time. Like it's a theme that you want to focus on but but that opens up… I guess it's a style where it opens up to more kind of freeform conversation. Rachel: Yeah, I think that thinking of it as a… Like, I think of script as kind of chord changes, right? They're landmarks you're going for and you need to get there eventually, but feeling confident enough to improvise the path between those landmarks is what leads to a more productive, natural, fun conversation for both the researcher and the participant. And I think that's where… I'm not going to remember this quote perfectly, but there's a really great book called Free Play and in it they talk about how improvising with others creates these moments where this other thing gets treated in this third place that neither one of you would have done individually. And that third place, If I'm really going to stretch the metaphor, I don't think it's that far of a stretch, like that third place in music is really equivalent to that deeper level of understanding while talking to others, while doing a user research interview or whatever interview you're doing. So being able to improvise comfortably so you can get to that third place of creation, I think it's really the goal. Jorge: I love this idea of thinking about these conversations as an opportunity to create something new rather than go down some kind of prescribed path. Rachel: Yeah. Because even in classical music, right? The most wonderful classical performers are not just reading off the page, you know? There's a lot of embellishments that happen, a lot of phrasing that they choose to do in their own unique way that really brings a piece to life. And so even if you've got this pretty well scripted script, or set of objectives that you're being really strict about, that's fine. It's the path getting through those, I think that really is what brings research alive. Jorge: One of the reasons that I wanted to talk with you is precisely because I think you're a very thoughtful on these issues, and I'm wondering how if any this way of thinking about it has affected the way that you manage your own information. Rachel: It totally has. This coincides pretty directly with another kind of principle I've been working under for about the last year or so, which is that of radical simplification of the structures I put in place. Right? And so there's a big parallel between this idea of having this super scripted thing that you need to get through versus having landmarks that you need to hit. And I don't know necessarily how I'm gonna get through those, to how I manage the information in my life. I'd say until about a year ago, I really architected how I managed information and how I organized everything both in my personal life and in my projects and at work and all this other stuff. And I realized that by structuring everything to the nth degree, I actually wasn't helping myself anymore. It was really a reaction to stress and anxiety and this idea of like, “If I can just control every little thing, then everything will be fine.” And I realized it was actually backfiring, having that really intense amount of structure was just making the burden heavier. And so I started experimenting with this idea of simplifying, really really simplifying my structures, so that there is more room for creativity and improvisation in almost everything I was doing. I really realized that by structuring things so heavily, It just wasn't giving me any space to do good work or just be and relax and exist in this beautiful world. Jorge: I'm wondering if you can give us an example of how loosening up the structures can has led you to opening space for improvisation and creativity. Rachel: Yeah. So one concrete example is one that I've actually heard from a lot of people, where I used to make these really long, structured to-do lists because I just wanted to monitor my progress on everything, I wanted to feel like I was making progress on stuff and really keep track of every little thing that was going on. What I realized was having those long to-do list was actually just stressing me out even more. I felt like I always had so much to do. When I started shortening my to-do lists, I realized it's not because I suddenly had less to do, It's that I was really forcing a prioritization of what it was I needed to do. So, that's a pretty common one that we hear a lot, is this shortening that to do list. The other thing that I've tried to do is really just… I think I've been calling it like throttling my intake, and just be very selective about the type of information and the channels of information that I'm willing to take in. Because when you create space… You have a finite finite amount of brain space, at least I do. And when you just let anybody or anything fill that space then they'll fill it and it'll be max to capacity. And I realized what I was doing as I wasn't saving any space for myself, which means quiet time, time to be bored, time to sit quietly and just think about something. And so by really throttling my intake what I mean is, I have been practicing checking my email less frequently. I've turned off all notifications on my phone. My phone shuts down all my access to my apps at like 8 o'clock every night. So to help me throttle my intake. I do those short to-do lists. I don't check the news as frequently, and I really get curious when I am trying to pick up some information, if I'm doing it by habit or if I'm doing it intentionally. And if I'm doing it my habit I ask you know, what what am I hoping to get out of taking in this information at this moment? Like why am I doing this? Why am I checking New York Times app for the fifth time? What am I hoping to get out of this? And so that's been a really big part of this kind of experiment and just opening up space for other things that are not about digesting information. Jorge: You mentioned turning off the… I think you said the phone's ability to check email after a certain time. Are you first of all, are you an iPhone or an Android User? Rachel: Yeah, iPhone. Jorge: So are you using like Apple's native… Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, whatever they're calling it. I don't think it's the Do Not Disturb, but it basically… Oh, Screen Time. So I have my down time. There's a there's a part of that called Downtime and then there's a part called app limits and so I've got my Downtime set to start It looks like at nine o'clock at night. So it just shuts all my apps… It like grays out all of my apps and if I try to open one, it asks me. It says hey, “You're supposed to be in down time right now. Like, are you sure you want to do this?” And then usually I say, “You know, what? No, I actually don't really need to look at this right now.” This was an anxious reflex to some thought I had. Now I'm not going to open this because I know I really need to. Or the app limits, you know, I set some limits on social media because I get really sucked in and I waste a lot of time that way and it generates a lot of bad feelings for me. So I have my phone kind of helping me throttle some of that. Be my buddy. It's my buddy and reminding me that, “At one point, you said you didn't want to do this. I'll totally let you do this, but I'm just going to check first. ” Jorge: Yeah, it's somehow you have to opt yourself back into something that you said that you'd committed to not do, right? Rachel: Yeah, or even if you think of it, the way my screen is laid out… I love working. I get in a state of flow, I really enjoy it and that's great. It's a sign that I love my field, I love my job. The problem is that I'm not really great at managing that love of flow when I really do actually want to be doing other things, like at night. Right? I've been really lucky that I've never been in situations with any job I've had where people are pressuring me to work at night or on the weekends or anything like that, but I have a personal tendency to do it because I really enjoy it. So the thing that I'm trying to do is maintain that delicate balance of doing what I love but also I need a little help retaining space for other things that I love that maybe are not so pleasant in my life. You know, like sometimes I need help being reminded to play my instrument or to just sit quietly and not open my email and see if anyone needs my help. Jorge: I don't know too much about jazz, but one of the one of the things that I understand about improvisational jazz — and I think you hinted at this earlier — is a notion that when you're playing your instrument along with a group of other players, with a band say, and all of you have achieved a certain level of mastery over the instruments, you can get into these states of flow where you can improvise over certain structures. In hearing you talk about how you're setting up your personal information environments to wall off your personal time, I'm wondering how, if any, you've found ways of opening up those spaces for you to play along with others to collaborate with other people. Rachel: Yeah, that's a really great question. So if you think of a combo, a group of jazz musicians who are playing something together. They've all agreed at some point on the scenario, right? Like are we playing this particular song are we just free improvising in some particular style? You know, what other kind of the boundaries of what we're trying to do together? And then they move forward and play together. And I think that that really makes a lot of sense. And how I approach collaborating with teammates or with students or with co-presenters at workshops and all this thing is like, what's our shared goal here? What's this scenario we're in? What's the framework? And are there constraints we are working in? And now let's dive in, play together. And you'll you know, if you are an avid jazz listener and you go to live shows, there are definitely moments when some jazz musicians are… They really want to be the star, you know, and you can totally tell they're not really playing by the rules. They're not collaborating super well, and it totally happens because we're all human beings. And so there's also a little in how we collaborate in our work too; there are times when you've got different levels of people who are and are not playing along. And so you learn how to just keep communicating the goal, right? And keep just trying to contribute to that shared improvisation and and you keep iterating and you keep getting feedback from others about how that's going and then at some point you reach the end of the song and and whatever happens happened and you kind of move on from there. Jorge: I remember reading something about the Miles Davis album Kind of Blue. Rachel: Uh-huh. Jorge: Where… And I might be totally off on this, but I think I read this somewhere, that when that album was recorded they basically did all songs in one take, or what you hear on the album is the first take, and there was no music written out. It's just Miles Davis came in with the chord progressions, and he just gave them to the players and said, “This is what we're doing.” And that album essentially captures their improvisations and that's what comes to mind when you're describing this. Rachel: Yeah, totally that idea that chord changes are enough is so cool. Right? It's this idea that this pretty spare framework is just enough context to allow people to communicate with each other meaningfully with some shared intention, but with enough freedom for these incredible unpredictable moments to happen as well. Jorge: Just to bring it all back back together because we are kind of nearing the end of our time together here, I feel like our conversation today has been a little bit of an improvisation like that. Rachel: Yeah. Jorge: In that we had a little bit of a structure. Like I told you well, you know, we're going to be talking for about around 30 minutes, and these are more or less the themes we're going to be touching on. But really the the conversation itself has been emergent and I've learned a lot just from our brief time together, so I wanted to thank you for that. Rachel: Oh, absolutely. You're welcome. It's been really fun talking about this and seeing if the idea falls flat or not. Quite transparently, you know, this is the thing I've been thinking about for a couple months now and I think it has some legs and it's not just me. So it's been really fun to show some of these ideas the light of day and see how well they fare. Jorge: You were mentioning that you're going to be presenting this later this year. Where would be the best place for folks to follow up with you, see what you're up to look into your presentations and such? Rachel: Yeah. So my LinkedIn and Twitter are where I plan to post everything once it's ready. And those are really the only two channels I keep an eye on. And you'll notice, not surprisingly I don't tend to speak much on this. I do a lot of listening. But I'll be publishing decks and an extra materials there when they're ready. Jorge:I'm going to include those in the in the show notes. So thank you for your time, Rachel. This has been great. Rachel: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Rachel Grunwell is one of New Zealands' best know health and wellness experts and enthusiastic marathon runner. She is an award-winning journalist and has just released the book Balance: Food, health + Happiness which which features 30 global experts sharing science-backed advice on living healthier and happier.  But Rachel wasn't always a fitness queen. Up until 7 years ago she was a hard hitting investigative journalist and had three small children and was by her own admission extremely unfit. She had never been into any type of sport and thought those people that did all that just had different genes that she did. But then she was offered a column writing about fitness and health and this led her on an unexpected journey of self discovery and a complete change of lifestyle. Now Rachel helps others turn their lives around and teaches running, yoga and mindfulness when not writing books and articles. She is also the ambassador for the Achiles Foundation and helps support disabled athletes compete in marathons and other races.  In this interview Lisa and Rachel delve into some of the learnings she discovered through interviewing 30 global leading health, fitness and performance experts from neuroscientists to nutritionists and about her own personal journey. Here’s a link to find out more about Rachel and Balance https://inspiredhealth.co.nz We would like to thank our sponsors Running Hot - By Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff If you want to run faster, longer and be stronger without burnout and injuries then check out and TRY our Running Club for FREE on a 7 day FREE TRIAL Complete holistic running programmes for distances from 5km to ultramarathon and for beginners to advanced runners.   All include Run training sessions, mobility workouts daily, strength workouts specific for runners, nutrition guidance and mindset help Plus injury prevention series, foundational plans, running drill series and a huge library of videos, articles, podcasts, clean eating recipes and more.   www.runninghotcoaching.com/info and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel at Lisa's Youtube channel  www.yotube.com/user/lisatamat and come visit us on our facebook group   www.facebook.com/groups/lisatamati Epigenetics Testing Program by Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff. Wouldn’t it be great if your body came with a user manual? Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? These are just some of the questions you’ll uncover the answers to in the Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There’s a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the “future of personalised health”, as it unlocks the user manual you’ll wish you’d been born with! No more guess work. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyse body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home Find out more about our  Epigenetics Program and how it can change your life and help you reach optimal health, happiness and potential at: https://runninghotcoaching.com/epigenetics You can find all our programs, courses, live seminars and more at www.lisatamati.com  Transcription Speaker 1: (00:00) Well. Hi everybody. It's Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits. It's fantastic to have you tune in for today's show and I'll have a wonderful guest coming up for you, but before I reveal who that is this week, I just wanted to let you know once again, if you want to reach out to me, you can do so. Lisa at Lisatamati.com,if you've got any questions around today's show or any of the past episodes or anything about running fitness, nutrition mindset, epigenetics, any of the things that we like to talk about on the show, then please don't hesitate to reach out to me. You can also check us out on Lisatamati.com that's our main website where we have all our programs listed and you can find out about live retreats and follow our blog. We'd really appreciate you checking out that stuff on there and getting back to us if you need any help with anything. Umow today I have a really amazing interview with one of New Zealand's top, ealth and wellness experts, a lady by the name of Rachel Grunwell. Now, many of you might've heard of Rachel. She's just put out a book called Balance, u,ich I'm going to talk to her about today. Um,e's a mom of three. She was an investigative journalist who tuned them her hand to learning about everything, health, fitness. And when she does something, she does it properly. Does our Rachel. So without further ado, I'd like you to introduce you to Rachel Grunwell. Speaker 2: (01:25) Yeah, well, hello everybody. It's Lisa Tamti here at pushing the limits. It's fantastic to have you back again for another fantastic episode. I'm really, really excited about this one. I've got a lady that I've followed for a long time on social media and heard great things about here. So I've got Rachel Grunwell. (01:40) You should hear that, right? She's on pushing the limits and it's really, really exciting. So, Rachel, welcome to the show. Speaker 3: (01:46) Thanks for having me on, Lisa. It's great to be here. Speaker 2: (01:49) Well, it's fantastic to have you now for those of you who live under a rock and don't know who Rachel is. Rachel is a journalist and she's also an author and a wellness and health experts. Uand Rachel, I want you to go back and just give us a little bit background about you, your life, your, your, you know, how you got into this because you came from investigative journalism of all things and like you've very, very different so, right. So take it away. Tell us, tell us a little about yourself. Speaker 3: (02:19) Yeah. So on a previous life, I was a very hard noise journalist for 25 years actually. And I would hope politicians to account and people in power to account. And I really love the industry because you could create incredible change, you know, you could help change policies or help, you know, beyond the door when they needed help and you know, publicly whole people and power to account. And I had a dream to become an award winning journalist and I reached there,which I was very lucky to do. Speaker 3: (02:55) And I went on to, you know, have family and I still keep as a investigative journalist and I would work out from one day a week to two days to three days. And I had, I worked for some really amazing Editors who just met me and would take,uhow many days a week than I, I could work and build up to after I had my food, some,ufun. It was by luck. And by chance they, I was offered a column, a weekly column,uby the Herald on Sunday and it was a well bang column and I would try and survive all these fitness and health activities every week. And, and I always joke that if at the time I was offered the wine column, I would have believed it. That plays.,So I was, you know, it harm our circuit on, but I never been this kind of fit creature. Speaker 3: (03:50) And Yeah. So when I was offered the a column, it was, yeah, it was really great cause I thought, yes, please. I'd really like to learn myself. I was really confused about nutrition. I was so unfit. I was really unfit mom, I would struggle to push a pram around the block and look, I was half in path and I found it really difficult. And I thought people who are really fit were like lady Gaga. They were born this way. Seriously though, different base. They had different genes to me and you know, I was such a Guinea pig with it column and you know, I tried juicing diets and got really hangry, hungry, angry. I tried a soup thing,tried dancing and I was worse than a certain politician. I had totally fate., nd I started a run and I started, u, it would've been seven years ago now. Speaker 3: (04:47) And I really, I just thought I've just got to show up. I've just got to try and I really don't understand this, but I'll just see if I can run a fun run one day. And I started with a 20 minutes walk from routine around the block today, two times a week. And I did that for a few weeks and I hated it. I was kind of a firing John. I was awful. And I, you know, it was really hard and I was there on foot and it was horrible. But I just, I, one thing I'm really good at is just being bloody-minded running. Yeah. Yeah. And especially in your realm. Oh my God. I don't know how you do it. You're like, I be principals really just go one step further than you've been before. And seriously, Ollie. God, yeah. Sorry. I just, I started there and you know, after a few weeks I thought, oh my God, I actually, I can run a little bit longer or I'm doing least walking then then I was before I can run a little bit longer. I, I feel a little bit stronger. Wow. I can really feel less in HD. You can really measure it. That's the coolest thing about running, right, is it you can meet your major, your progress and yeah. So once I could run 25 minutes I went to a PT and I said, look, if you can get me to run 10 k's you or 30 minutes unbroken, you won't be a PT. You'll be an m him. And he's like, what's that? Right. And he's like, miracle. Like you'd be a miracle Micah. Speaker 2: (06:29) Okay. Speaker 3: (06:31) And yeah, and, but I just showed up to training and I just keep going and got stronger and fitter and yeah. And then I did a ten km then a half marathon and then within a year I did my first marathon in. Fast forward to today and I'm about to run my 25th marathon. And a lot of them are give backs, which is guiding disabled athletes. Yeah. Speaker 2: (06:55) That's amazing. We'll get into that. Yeah. Speaker 3: (06:57) And since I've qualified in the industry, so qualified coach, I help people lose weight, get for level life, they love and and a really holistic way. So I don't just help them train or really care about how they're living their lives and how, how to be them best selves and Qualified Yoga teacher minutes in meditation. And there's a cross of passions as you would a little bit similar, like as, I love what you do, cause I've worked with a lot of athletes elite runners to weekend warriors crossfitters dancers to moms, moms and daughters are teaching yoga. And I worked with a lot of big brains teaching mindfulness and meditation and Yoga and stuff now. So that year were the bet athletes, you know, you need to rebalance your body or otherwise you're going to break. Speaker 2: (07:49) I'm sorry I went to that too. You know, as coaches, you know, we've, we've, you know, like I as an athlete did it all wrong for many, many years of broke myself basically by not having that holistic approach. And it's really important for us to be as conscious as that. We really look at the whole person their whole life and where they're at and how do we keep them forward without, without breaking them, without boon out, without getting lots of injuries and really looking at the whole health and not just their run times, you know. So that's why, you know, our philosophies align really nicely there. And you know, you've, you've touched on meditation and Yoga there. What's your take? I mean, I'm right into meditation and I actually self hypnosis and things like that as well and reprogramming. Have you, how's meditation help you in your life and you know, what's your take on the whole, you know, Yoga, meditation sort of world? Speaker 3: (08:50) Yeah. So I teach it now at retreats and in, you know, big events with and things like that and what's been really transferable formative for me, like I was the worst and meditator and I had a terrible monkey mind, you know, like my mind was all over the flies and what helped me was just starting small. It's like starting at run journey, right? It's like the first person who prescribed meditation to me gave me 30 minutes and I just went like, oh no, I'm going to do that. Like it was so overwhelming and I just didn't do a minute of it. But the second and I started small and I started slowly and I did a minute, then, you know, he's huge magic in there and I can do that. And that's how I train my mind in mindfulness has been transformative for many and how I live my life. Speaker 3: (09:44) And, you know, mindfulness just for anyone out there who, who's not,uhugely ensuring whether it's about not being stuck in the past. Sorry, I spent, I wasted a lot of my twenties and thirties,,feeling really angry and upset in stuck about certain things that had happened to me or how people were with me. And I really, yeah, keep too much, I think about pleasing people, but I really hung on to stuff in the past and you can't change anything in the past. So mindfulness is about leading, you know, acknowledging the past,uin , you know, not getting stuck in it. I mean, that's not been,you know, in the future cause you can't control the future. So it's, you know, having this letting go process. Uand yeah, it's just about living in an hour, celebrating the, now, seeing the absolute beauty and magic. Speaker 2: (10:40) And this is just so crucial. Like our lives are run by our subconscious. And that is always, you know, it with their conscious minds. We are either in the past and we were in in the future. We were always scared of what's going to happen to us or we're anticipating stuff or with, we're upset about what's happened to us in the past and we replaying those, those things with our subconscious programming, controlling 95% of our lives. Say, you know, that we only have a very small processing capacity with our prefrontal cortex and our subconscious is actually doing 95 to 99% of the work. So we can do what we want with their conscious thinking and still not have that breakthrough because the race is happening at another level. And when you do meditation, when you do mindfulness, this is you know, what's really important is about letting go of, of the, of the past and understanding it, not blaming and not staying stuck in that cycle of emotion. Speaker 2: (11:38) Basically, isn't it break out of those emotional responses? Because otherwise if you're reliving every day a trauma that you had in your childhood or your past at some stage, then your body is experiencing all of that pain every damn week, you know, and every day and only doesn't know the difference between a, that was 10 years ago or what is right now. It's having those same reactions. And so we get stuck. And this is where I saying, you know, the, the meditation, the deep breathing and it's, it's totally not woo woo , is it Rachel? It's not just Speaker 3: (12:12) No art science back and really heavily, sorry. So, you know, psychologists prescribe mindfulness, it's in the workplace. Like I w I worked with a lot of corporates in this field and they now are really welcoming that transition to understanding the science and these disciplines. And yet it is so, transformative. And you know, part of it's getting older and a bit wiser and you know, wow. But you know, like how you choose to experience the world, it's such a big thing. You don't get to choose what happens around you or how other people behave, but you always get to choose how you show up and, and you know, I like you, you know, energy goes way energy flows. And so like, I want to put my energy into really good things and positive things. Chase dreams get shut down. You know, Speaker 2: (13:12) I mean to go from seeing, you know, within, within seven years, I mean, being as hard-hitting journalist to now being a wellness expert and a fitness expert and having run nearly 25 marathons that's a massive transformation. Well, bringing up three children and writing a book. I mean and I mean on the book journey, like let's, let's go there for a little bit because often the model of my third book and to go balance, everyone listening or watching this on the video, you can say, write to his book balance. It's a hell of a journey to get a book out. Isn't that right? Show? Speaker 3: (13:48) Oh my God, it's s hard I can't relate up to your third, like one seriously almost broke me. Speaker 2: (13:57) Well that's one of my third one is excellent. You was breaking Beta. I wasn't an ultra marathon runner chapter. I like it. Speaker 3: (14:04) Yeah. Yeah. You know, the insurance tastes thing. Yeah. Speaker 2: (14:07) So how did you always come about and what is your book about and tell us a little bit about the interviews and things that you've got on the consumer interested to, to find out all about that. Speaker 3: (14:16) Yeah, sorry. It's cool. Balance, food, health and happiness and it's like this ducky beautiful blue color and just really simple and design. So a lot of main rating. So that's not candy, floss, pink and color. I really love that because I work, you know, as a coach and Yogi and things I work with mean and woman. And so I, I'm sorry, plays a designer's. We with a beautiful clean design. So how it came about was I have still kept it writing arm, sorry, I'm a wellness columnist for magazine and also indulge magazine and one of those goes on the Herald online every week. And I'm so a blogger with a lot of brands and things, I've kept it writing on going as well as well as the wellness work. And over the years I'm sort of lucky because I get to interview some of the beast minds in the wellness industry, you know, nutrition, fitness, movement,umindset, a lot of the most amazing minds, not only in New Zealand, but throughout the world. Speaker 3: (15:22) And my journalism background as suits me really well because you know, there's the writing craft, but also, you know, the question, you know, having those, the curiosity with questions and things. And so, yeah, we took a publish a couple of years ago. I got a publishing deal. I feel very grateful for that. So hard to get there. And it's based on footie experts from throughout the world. Sharing science stacks wellness, wisdom and all the kind of categories like psychology, neuroscience is for nutritionists and the the you know, these doctors in the air, there's researchers and you know, there's a neuroscientist on the who works with all blacks, our top rowers in Formula One racing car drivers to perform at the beast everyday. Kiwis can use those pillows to live their best lives these amazing stuff on emotional intelligence. Speaker 3: (16:22) Like, you know, how to relate better with kids, with friends, with colleagues to be a better human I guess. And you know, there's also 30 recipes, so 30 experts and 30 recipes. So there's a lot of you know, there's like a great beetroot juice on there for runners actually because I'm such a patient at runner there's even like the exercise high explained to me by doctor and like what's going on in your brain. And there's, you know, some core science concepts in there as well, like flow, which is a secret to a life worth living is finding flow. And you know, you and I know how to find it through running. And they were at such a gift we can access, cause you know, it helps as the yogurt. That's when you lost in the moment. You are immersed in the doing, you've got this reasonably high skill set. And so, you know, we can just run and get lost in the moment and it's moving meditation, Speaker 2: (17:25) It flows state as something I've studied. Have you read the book? Stealing fire tonight, fantastic book. Being able to tap into flow states and what flow states are. And I think that's a really important part of, I mean I have flow states like when I'm, I'm a journalist, so I create, you know, jewelry I haven't been doing as much lately because I'm so busy with, with things. And I miss that being in that state where I, you know, five hours go by and I, and I, and I've not even notice because I'm just in the creative process. And it takes a while to get in there and you know, but it's, it's something that's just fantastically, you know, that you're actually doing what you are, you know, made to do, so to speak. And you can get that running. You can get that role acting. Depends on what your thing is, but finding that flow state, it really pulls out the beast in you. This is when you're actually in your genius. Okay. Speaker 3: (18:22) Yeah. It's honestly, it's the psychologist who came up with a term called it Kale. I think you know, it's a secret total life worth living. Like if you can find your flow state, whether it's making jewellery, whether it's, you know, I'm getting lost in the moment doing netting or you know, even surgeons can find flow doing surgery, they are immersed in the moment and they won't even notice like music hall on the room. They don't like just lost in the moment in the, in the doing though you can say it. Great. Great. Yeah, sorry. And I find my flow state, you know, through music as well. Also saxophone. It's like, music's really cool. And even if you love listening to music, Oh my God. And like mix music you know, great place it where you're running. Speaker 2: (19:15) Absolutely. I mean, yeah, my husband's a museum and it's just like I just watch him and instantly go into a flow state when he's playing his guitar and stuff. And He, I could be yelling at him that Dennis was not hearing anything cause he's [inaudible] Speaker 3: (19:28) I might be selective hearing Speaker 2: (19:32) Cause mining, but you'd think he'd come for food, but he just, he's just in a different world. And, and unlike in VM that, you know, like I know I don't have a musical instrument. So,uthat, that's just a beautiful thing to watch. And this is when humans are at the highest potential. And if we can spend at least a little bit of time everyday in that state, in, we were much happier as humans. I, yeah. And we're choosing what we want to. Yeah. I wanted to sort of, mou know, taken a left hand turn in the road and talk a little bit about, our work with Achilles and your, you know, giving back to, u,rough your running. Um, I know we actually meet through our mutual friend Ian Walker, uwho has been on the show before. Absolutely. I, Rachel, just amazing man. Ian was hit by a truck years ago while he was out and on his bike and Speaker 3: (20:27) And he was an amazing marathonner. I mean like really fast marathon. Speaker 2: (20:35) Yeah. Walk in the wheelchair and in any back to doing marathons in is a hand bike and so on. Absolutely amazing story. And then you get hit by another, a truck., I think it was a while out on his hand bike and he's ahead head to go back and he's actually even further up paralyzed now and I don't know the technical term, but it's further up the back, basically a quadriplegic now and he's fighting back again. And he just absolutely blows my mind whenever I'm feeling down about, you know, I can't run as fast as I used to run as far or whatever. I think about Ian and I thinking about, you know, get over yourself and you've had the privilege of traveling to the New York marathon with Ian and the Achilles crew. Tell us a little about you, your work with [Achilles and how it has worked out for you. Speaker 3: (21:24) Sorry. It was really special being on that trip with Ian Actually and we forged this incredible friendship from that time and with [inaudible] it science like, you know, cure very much about 'em and you know, it's just a great mate and yeah, I love hanging out with him. Yeah. He inspires me hugely with his capacity to train and I love his determination to, to want to do well on these races. And you know, he's an amazing hand cycle athlete and yeah, really, really awesome to have a minute. [inaudible] And yeah, so I'm going to bet though for Kelly's something I'm really proud of and I've helped quite a lot of different athletes over the years. So just quickly for any viewer listeners who don't know what I can use as about we just help anyone with any kind of disability or barrier to participate in running kind of events. Speaker 3: (22:20) So half marathons fund runs marathons and I've gotten through quite a lot of races over the years and yeah, I love, I love being part of that charity in just about to take someone to New York visually appeared go with a spirit just as well gonna help you throw New York marathon learn and also Sydney half marathon. So not helper Tom Idi another inspiring athletes. But yeah, just, you know, like it's a hot connected thing. Like it's amazing to run your own rice lightly. You know, it's incredible to like to be chasing a time or just to be out there running your own race, but to help someone else that the drain. How about lifting and wonderful and you work, you connect it for ever and you know, through the tears and snot at the finish line. But to ne Speaker 2: (23:21) You're really emotionally already, your, your in you, he just, some way he was with one of your race lights. Yeah. Speaker 3: (23:27) There's a lot of pride through and you know, I, I've done enough races now and you know, qualified as a coach and I think one of my biggest gifts to share in their charity is to get them through to the finish line and a pretty good state in. So I know when they need to back. I know when they need to fuel, I know when they're, you know, they're on their mind struggle and you know, just helping them through those different stages and yeah, it's wonderful to share. Speaker 2: (23:58) Absolutely. My [inaudible] and this would be, you know, like this is, this is so grateful, not just with disabled, escalate athletes and not just, wouldn't it be fabulous to have someone like that that got talkies through everything in life, you know? Speaker 3: (24:12) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, if you got a card, she gonna get to your goal. A goal smarter and faster. Yeah. Like everything in life, right? Yeah. Speaker 2: (24:23) I mean, you know, we buy and, but honestly, all cost speed. The spent the first 10 years of my ultra marathon career without a coach. Back then there wasn't really anybody that knew too much about ultra marathoning and in the area that I was in and all the mistakes, the injuries, the burnout that the horrific stuff that you did all wrong that you could've saved yourself. And then, you know, Neil Wagstaff, who's now my business partner at running hot coaching, ou know, like he just flipped everything on its head and I had the base performances and you know, we've had, you know, lifelong friendship and now business relationship. Umnd it, it's just like, Oh man, you, you shortcut the process. Why reinvent the wheel? And now in every area of life I search out, and this is one of the selfish reasons I do this podcast, is because I get to meet people like you and, and other amazing people who have done incredible things. And I get to learn, this is my way of learning. As much as there's a selfish aspect of us Speaker 3: (25:27) Could learn so much from you too, Lisa. Speaker 2: (25:33) Oh, well hiey Yeah. Well let's go there. I'll get you through to an ultramarathon. Oh my God. Fabulous. I'll teach you up on that. Or if you, if you kind of, I'll help you get to the next distance. ,But coming back to the Achilles, you know, like helping other people. It doesn't matter if a disabled people or,uit just, it's just so you, you get out of your own skin, don't you? When you, when I of even in the middle of a running race, I've been doing ultramarathons and middle of deserts or something. And you're just like dying. And you know, sometimes, literally and sometimes just feeling like it. And then you come across somebody who is in deeper trouble than you. Instantly you forget your own suffering and you're there for them. And then you help them through their crisis and youth and the time flies. Speaker 2: (26:26) Once again, you're in a flow state because you're actually focused on somebody else. You're outside of your own Missouri. And then you know that saying pain is not optional, but suffering is, and it is like when you, when you understand how to switch, and I'm not saying it's easy, but when you actually on, in your case I'm someone with a visual impairment or in a wheelchair or something and you're helping them fight the battle and you can see how massive that bale is, it makes you feel like, well, what am I complaining about? My sore legs and lackluster on my tire. You know, that it's not as bad as what my friend is going through and it lessens your suffering and it gives you a complete new perspective on life, I think. Speaker 3: (27:05) Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we would get by in this world, depending on the barriers that we place on ourselves and the not barriers that others put in front of us, the ones that we've put in front of ourselves and I case the isolates who has, you know, real disabilities, they inspire me. So, you know, people, the rest of the world sees it as me helping them. And but actually it just, they end up becoming, you know, my friends and a lot of them are like family to me. Like I care about them that much and yeah. And, Speaker 3: (27:48) Yeah. Yeah. They inspire me and I think, look, you know, they can't see, they're not living their barriers and on the way and actually win. You know, it's a, it's a good lesson to share. It's like, you know, what, what barriers are in your way and how are you allowing them to a feature. Yeah. Speaker 2: (28:07) It's fantastic. Right? Joy. And I hope you continue to do that. And you know, to people like Ian Walker that just for me, they're my role models, you know, that is, and, and I mean, I don't know if you know my situation, the listeners who listen to my show, not, but my mom had an aneurysm three years ago. So working with her on a day to day basis and your rehabilitation and you know, with of disabilities, Speaker 3: (28:29) Oh, it's amazing what you've done. Speaker 2: (28:31) Yeah. Like she's just incredible. But it's given me a complete new perspective on, on life and what we're capable of and that replaced with an s selves. And you know, it's not that it's an easy thing to go through and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but by the same token, I'm, I'm always, when I have adversity, I try to find the silver lining, the, the, the lessons, the learnings, what, what, how has this helped me and how has this been an advantage? And this journey has just shown me so, so much about everything like to perspective, you know, like for here, you know, here's me moaning. I can't run, I can't run my a hundred k's anymore or my 200 k's or whatever, you know, why was me my life's over? Because you're the athlete who's always been able to do these sort of things and then you're looking at a person who can't stand. Speaker 2: (29:23) We can't take a single step or can't even sit properly. And you sort of just relativizes everything in your life. And it's a really good reminder to have things like that. You know, in your mind, in your mind's eye to just, you know, okay, you're not a, you know, you're never got to meet Usain bolt when you're never going to be pulling a red cliff who case get out there and done stuff anyway, you know, do what you can do. Don't be miserable for the fact that, oh, I used to. And as a coach we get a lot of people. I used to be able to do this and now I can't and I'm trying to get them to let go of the past and just be here now. And once again, we limit ourselves sometimes by the achievements that we've had in the past in turning that around in a hate to go, okay, I've had an accident. Speaker 2: (30:11) Like Ian, you know, he, he, he'd gotten to being so good and then he was head again and then he's had to start from scratch again. That just absolutely blows my mind that he would get up again and fight again, you know and knowing how long that, that journey is. So yeah, I think, I think the work that you're doing is wonderful. So Rachel, what w talk to us a little bit about your change in your nutrition side and things like that. What do you, what sort of advice did you get out of doing the book or what learnings have you had on the, on the nutrition side of things? Speaker 3: (30:49) Yeah, sorry, I, you qualified to PT level to level five. So there's a really nice underpinning of our new national guidelines and you know, how w how we should be feeling about days. I'm actually personally quiet low carb, healthy fat almost, But I do like some,good ciabatta bread. It was great mornings on top, so I'm not perfectionist. Actually, you know, my book is called balance because I believe in all things in life and balance. Uhort of. I drink coffee, I drink wine, love of beer with a mate. Umnd I eat chocolate. I love chocolate. But you know, I think some 90% of my food is actually a pretty good and you know, it's about putting in an amazing fuel, mating nutrients. Uhut it's got to taste good. So for years and years now, I've been designing, healthy recipients for good magazine. Speaker 3: (31:47) And so why I put a city recipes and balance because I often talk about like the hero ingredients and how they feel your body and how the magic, you know, they bring about like Avocados you know, great for beautiful like, you know, eat for vanity as well. And these actually for runners,uyou know, there's some cold smoothies on here and what I hate is smoothies that tastes like swamp water I like food. I love food. I love fruit too much. So if you can, you know, eat or drink anything. , T's got to taste good in the assemble. Awesome. Umo there's a chocolate, a smoothie bowl. Speaker 2: (32:35) Oh, very. Oh my God. That looks great Speaker 3: (32:37) And so I think it's actually really amazing for your scan there. Sorry. And delicious nutrient dense. Am I saying? But these are great. A by trick drew some here, which is amazing. It's you, all the runners I know. A hugely of victory juice. Yup. Totally bomb into my truth. Yeah. So there's some great,uParse Rum,upar states, the size of smoothies and juices and snacks and stuff like that. And the,,and again, it's just kind of weaving in the stories of, you know, or what to eat and drink to, to feel amazing, but to look amazing. And some of the science behind why,you know, there's some really cool stuff around in fasting right now, you know, long, Speaker 2: (33:26) Really important that you, you enjoy your food and it's not just all, you know, horrible. You know, like I do get up in the morning and have this most awful, awful whole litre of vegetable juice, basically with everything from celery to, to lemon juice to, you know, turmeric and stuff. But that, you know, and that gives me my good start to the day, but then I don't want to have all my food like tasting right. And they don't want to. Yeah. We'll enjoy. Speaker 3: (33:54) Yeah. So, yeah, I am, yeah. Often is like four ingredients and a smoothie and that we really need nutritious and really good for you. Uand like some of the experts in the book, they really cold, like naughty 11 talks about, you know, banging and the whole orange She's like, you just, you know, being in all the nutrients, that's pretty quick and easy, you know, question. Umnd Sarah Wilson as in my boyfriend, she's fraught. She's the, I quit sugar queen. She's one of the largest, hike true hundred top authors in the world. Uhhe's amazing and she's put out all these incredible, m0 books. Umnd yeah, she talks about, you know, sustainability and my book actually not so much about food but umome awesome sustainability. Heck and but she's about using everything in the food, you know, like he gets celery, use the white butts, use the leaves, like use the whole damn thing, like you've paid for it and it's all nutrition. And so sorry. Yeah, it's kind of changed how I look at food. Umnd quite a few different ways like hearing about where it's coming from, how it feels, my body. Like it affects how you, you think and how you feel. It's like movement, right? Umovement affects and rewires your brain. So you know, you get incredible energy levels and you know, creativity and, and yeah. Your whole sense of how you show up in the world as linked to, you know, how you think, how you feel, how you move, what you eat. Speaker 2: (35:28) I'm not, I'm not like, it's really like when you understand the science behind things, you're more likely to do it. I find for me, you know, when I was told years ago to do to meditate and I was like, well, when I run, I meditate. You know, I can't stay in Still, , let's stay in the difference between, use it as a type of flow state and so on. But it's, there's a need for the other part of me, the meditation and why and how that quieting of the mind and checking into the, you know, the parasympathetic nervous system. And when you're running, you're in the sympathetic nervous system so that it's not going to, you know, create that balance. And when you understand a little of a science, I find it's far more interesting to actually do it. Then you get, you get why you're doing it and it gives you that, not just that, well, the your head to do this and you don't know why. I mean, maybe like learning maths as a kid and going, what the hell am I ever gonna have to work out all this stuff? It's a lot of inapplicable stuff to my life. You know? I've got to say that if they explained to me how it applies, if you want to build some, I don't know, a wall, you have to understand all this mess, then I might've gone, oh, okay, I'll get it now while I'm doing this Speaker 2: (36:37) U so I think understanding and doing that research is really important. Now. Rachel, we'll, we'll wrap it up in a moment. I just want to, to give you the full from a moment to what is your main message? What do you, what does Rachel stand for? What do you want to get out into the world? What's your big message, and I'm putting on the spot, but what, you know, if there's one, two or three things that you just really desperately wanted to share with the audience today, what would those be? Speaker 3: (37:04) I guess love, life and balance and least perfectionism. I thought about progression a, be really kind on yourself. We start hard on ourselves to be perfect. Sorry. There's this kind of process of letting go and like, I'm my mission in life to it as inspire, Kiwis or inspire anyone to, to live healthier and happier and yeah. Like, look, I'd love everyone to read my book. And you know, it's not an ego-driven thing. It was for a long time as a journalist, I really wanted to, to be an author, but when it came to doing my book, it needed to be a whole lot more than that. Like for anyone to actually spend money on my book. I wanted to be incredibly proud of it, but I actually want it to it to authentically, like genuinely help people. So I brought together the best minds who helped change my life to be a lot healthier and happier. I'm more, you know, got way more emotional intelligence than I ever had. I'm still working on that. But yeah, these people in the bark are amazing. And like, even if you read one chapter and it changes your household, happiness is incredible magic in there. So, yeah, during read it, connect with my, I love it. Speaker 2: (38:30) Yeah. And that that is so important. Rachel, you know, when you, when, when you know you're in I's office know how much you go through to get a book out. People would not believe how hard it is to get a book out in what you, you know, it cannot be about your ego and you want to sell millions of copies cause that's a dream that's not gonna happen. Generally you know it, you have to be thinking about the individuals that are reading this book and that it's gonna really impact the life. And you are talking for the next what the stuff about that sudden your book. So Rachel, where can people get your book? It's available in the book scores as well as on your website. Speaker 3: (39:07) Yeah Sir. It's on my website and spot health.co. Dot. NZ. If you want a signed copy, but it's actually in paper Plas crows or wherever you are in the world. It's on Amazon U K or book deposit. Trey just Google it. You'd be able to find it and it's great. It's a great gift for like an old woman. And the, the beauty of it is it's, yeah, just read one chapter. Like it's not a novel. You don't have to read the whole thing. If you're not into yoga, please don't read the architecture. But if you're into, you know, how the science of the feminist high works which is really fascinating. [inaudible]. Or how to live your base life or how to have, you know, five layers of listening so you can actually listen. Well, that was quite transformative for me. Just read that chapter. And yeah, connect with me on Instagram, which is just my name, Rachel Grunwell. Speaker 3: (40:02) Well my Facebook pages is fine. Health inZ age. Uyeah, connect with me. I love, I love those communities. I am really connected. And,uthe last thing I just wanted to, she was,uI did have a massive crisis of confidence,uhalfway through writing the book. It was two year journey and I almost walked away from it. UI was an award winning journalist, but I, yeah, I just had this really tricky time in my life and art. One more skive out. And, you know, you hit the self talk going on. I'm not good enough. Like I'm not, you know, I'm not as good as my friends who are amazing writers. Uand I had a really tricky time and are really vulnerable stage. I almost walked away. I had a publishing deal for Christ's sake. I'm sorry if I what's it so glad you did it. Yeah. And sorry mater it was, it was my biggest dream, right? And Yeah. And it was frightening to do it. And I think you've just gotta be bribed and follow through on your dreams. Don't give up on them. And I'm so glad I didn't. I love my book and so proud of it. And I feel emotional. Every diamond I get messages from riders. Ubut yeah, my message to anyone out there don't ever give up on your dream. And I know you're all about that, Lisa. Speaker 2: (41:21) Absolutely. And say, I hope people are listening. Cause you know, you look at Rachel Grandma and you think, wow, beautiful, amazing three children, Super Korea bought Blah retreats and you got, and a lot of were lot of people that's intimidating, right? And they look at it and go, well I couldn't even do that. But when they hear from some people like you saying, you know, I nearly didn't make it with the sport, I struggle with this or I have problems with that and people realize you, like you said at the very beginning of this and can you, I thought people who did health and fitness and sport, just different genes, Speaker 2: (41:56) No, all have different things. They did Dweck and I, one of the main themes running through this interview today, which I already picked out again and again and again in your talking was to start small and do something every day towards your goal of think, if I could sum up this whole interview, it would be, there is one, you know, takeaway is break things down and then when it seems overwhelming, just do a tiny little bit today. And you obviously did that with the book and I congratulate you on getting that book out because I know what a mess of journey it is. I'm still in the deep deck going, how the Hell I was, this and that. But it will, and I have enough experience down in there that I will eventually get through. And there's a lot of tears, is a lot of love, so we can tease that goes into these, into these box. So I do encourage you guys to go out there and grab Rachel's Book. You're obviously not going to regret it. Rachel, thank you so much for being on the show today. So go to inspired health.co. Dot. NZ. That's right. Speaker 3: (42:56) Yeah. And you can find out all about the broken, like read who the experts are involved on anxiety and personal on depression. Like the experts are really cool when other top happiness researchers in the world. And you know, I did ear guitar when he said he'd be involved. Thank God he couldn't see Speaker 2: (43:14) A read them and then try and try and get these people with someone on the podcast. So, you know, thank you very much for this as farm talk today. Rachel, I wish you well in your new business, in Davis, in the, in the work that you're doing and with your Achilles people. My love to you and thank you very much for being on the show today. It's been awesome. Speaker 3: (43:31) Thank you so much. You inspire me. So thank you. Speaker 2: (43:35) Thanks. Sorr Speaker 1: (43:36) That's it This week for pushing the limits. Thanks so much for stopping by and we really hope you enjoyed that interview. If you could do us a favour and please do a rating and review on iTunes, that would help the show immensely. We love getting feedback from our listeners,and it really helps the show get exposure. So if possible do us a really big favour, please make sure you go and do a rating and review in subscribe, and please share this content as well with your networks. If you could do that for us, would be very appreciative and we'll see you again next week. Thank you very much.     

Neste programa nós vamos mergulhar no universo da série Friends. Nós vamos falar sobre algumas curiosidades, sobre os personagens e, claro, relembrar muitas expressões em inglês que foram utilizadas na série. O convidado é o professor Adir Ferreira, ele tem 27 anos de experiência como professor e deu uma guinada no seu inglês estudando o vocabulário de séries. Ouvir o English Podcast Participaram do Programa Adir Ferreira (professor de inglês) criador do Adir Ferreira Idiomas. Alessandro Brandão (host) fundador do English Experts. Curso “Inglês com Friends”! O curso Inglês com Friends dura cinco semanas. Você vai receber, a cada segunda-feira, um e-mail com um link para fazer o download dos materiais. Não precisa acessar nenhuma área de membros, nada disso. Você acessa o link, baixa todos os materiais para o seu computador e pode acessa-los na hora e onde quiser. Clique aqui e conheça o curso por dentro Índice de Expressões do podcast Clique no link para pular para o ponto onde a expressão é pronunciada e explicada. I know! (06:11) How you doin’? (06:20) We were on a break. (06:29) Oh, my God! (06:43) If you need anything you can always come to Joey. Me and chandler live right across the hall. And he’s away a lot. (07:48) Friendzone (09:47) My first pay check! (11:18) Overweight (11:56) You fall for it every time. (14:33) I said I was a doctor, and they fell for it. (14:57) Fall for (something) hook, line and sinker. (15:13) Wouldn’t hurt you to say it once in a while. (15:50) Every once in a while I just yell and scream stuff at the TV. (16:21) I can’t get over how great you look. (16:58) I just can't get over the fact that our team lost at the last minute like that. (17:20) That movie was so fantastic, I can't get over it! (17:44) What are you up to? (18:03) Oh not much, you? (18:22) Oh not much. What about you? (18:27) Oh not a whole lot. What about you? (18:30) I am working on my new project. What are you doing? (18:40) It was no big deal (18:51) Biggie (19:17) I know I’m probably making a big deal out of nothing, but I’m worried about you. (19:50) I think he’s trying to mouth something to me, but I can’t make it out. (20:29) I couldn’t make out what he was saying. (20:50) She can’t make out your handwriting. (20:58) He made out with a 50-year-old woman. (21:25) Dump him (21:40) Break up (21:47) Stop hitting on her. (22:09) Smelly Cat (22:29) Good smelling (22:55) I wish I could, but I don't want to. (23:47) Joey doesn't share food. (24:12) Mike's place (25:08) Links discutidos no podcast Aprendendo Inglês com Séries e Filmes – English Podcast #19 Felipe Neto (Como eu aprendi inglês) Significado de Sitcom Friends - Ross and Rachel - It's never gonna happen 8 expressões que Friends eternizou Programas Anteriores Todos os Episódios do English Podcast Sugestões, críticas e elogios Envie sugestões e críticas nos comentários.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Wendi: I wanna know what goes on at the bachelorette party. Have you had to throw one - like having been a bridesmaid - have you ever thrown a bachelorette party for a girlfriend?Rachel: Yeah, but, I don't know if I want to talk about it.Wendi: I don't need any serious details, but maybe kind of like, what's the whole point of it and what typically goes on?Rachel: Oh, OK. Well, a bachelorette.... there's usually a bachelor party. That's usually what you hear about in movies and on television, where the guys go out for one last final night out and it's supposed to be really crazy, and I guess for many years it wasn't traditional to have a bachelorette party for the girls but then, I don't know, with trying to be on the same ground, and equal rights maybe bachelorette parties came out. Basically,...Wendi: The girls decided to kick their heels up too.Rachel: Yeah, exactly. So the girls have decided, "Yeah, OK, well if the guys can go out and party, the girls are going to go out and party too." And, usually, it's a surprise. Usually there's a limo involved in picking everybody up and of course, the bride can't look awful so she's gotta think something's going on. Maybe, she's going out to dinner with her husband or something, and yeah, the girls just all go out and usually drink a lot and I don't know, maybe go to places where there's a lot of good-looking guys, and yeah, it's supposed to - I guess - make the bride feel like she's lucky that she's getting married and doesn't have to deal with this crazy insanity of single life anymore.Wendi: I've definitely kind of experienced and seen at bachelorette parties - I've ever been to a bachelor party as well but - that was strange, but I've seen...Rachel: Hopefully not the one jumping out of the cake.Wendi: No. No. I've seen people, like, they kind of feel like it's like getting initiated onto a sports team. It's like, they feel the right to make the person do stupid things that they would never ask them to do any other day of the week.Rachel: It's kind of like a sorority type thing I think.Wendi: Yeah. It absolutely is. So have you ever kind of been at a bachelorette party where the girl getting married was asked to do something kind of strange or silly or foolish or just kind of off at all - or not so much?Rachel: I think all of my friends are kind of off, so nothing out of the ordinary but you know, my standards might not be your standards.Wendi: Fair enough. I think that's a good answer to the question. So, I'll interpret that yes.Rachel: Hey, you know what, they say you can plead the fifth amendment my friend.Wendi: You'll take the fifth?Rachel: Yeah.Wendi: OK. Fair enough.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Wendi: OK, so I have never in my life been to a Wiccan wedding, and I want to know exactly what goes down?Rachel: OK, a Wiccan wedding, unlike other weddings, it's about their religion but it's more about celebrating the love of the couple and then they just kind of bring in the forces of nature: earth, wind, fire and whatever the other one is and, yeah, basically it was really a celebration of their love, and the bridesmaids and the groomsmen stood around the couple in a circle and kind of had to send positive energy. It was a very hippie kind of love-fest wedding, and unlike traditional flowers there was leaves.Wendi: Oh, that sounds so beautiful. On the floor kind of thing?Rachel: On the floor, yeah, and it was in the autumn so they were all different colors.Wendi: Wow, that sounds beautiful.Rachel: Yeah.Wendi: Was it outside or inside?Rachel: It was inside but then the reception was outside.Wendi: Wow, so it held in a church?Rachel: It was, no, it was not held in a church because there is no real church for Wiccan people. They just kind of, if anything, meet in small groups and talk about nature and things like that.Wendi: Cool. That sounds really interesting.Rachel: Yeah, but it did have kind of like an archbishop for Wiccan, people come in a very brightly colored cloakWendi: Right.Rachel: And he was waving around a kind of staff.Wendi: Yeah. Weird.Rachel: Yeah. And they actually had to jump a witches broom at the end of it.Wendi: Ah, I've seen that before, I think in the Southern U.S. that's kind of a custom or something like that. Have you seen that custom anywhere else?Rachel: No, just at the Wiccan wedding.Wendi: I've heard of that jumping over the broom before. I'm not sure. I'm not sure where I've seen that before, but yeah, that's interesting. Tell me a little about what the man and woman getting married were wearing?Rachel: Um, regular traditional outfits. It was more the man who was conducting the ceremony that had something strange on. The bride wore a regular white gown with a veil and the groom wore a tuxedo with a tie.Wendi: Right.Rachel: All the bridesmaids had the same dress on picked out by the bride. Maybe instead though the jewelry was much more gothic style. Crosses and things like that. But yeah, everybody looked like a regular wedding except for hippie-looking guy.Wendi: Wow. Sounds like a really awesome event.

Pelvic pain during sex, pain from the pelvic region generally, incontinence, prolapse – these do NOT have to be your “new normal.” There are treatments out there to help you manage, even solve, many of the issues related to pelvic floor dysfunction. One solution might mean taking a long look at your choice of birth control …. Rachel Gelman DPT is a clinical specialist and branch director at the Pelvic Health and Rehabilitation Center in San Francisco. She specializes in the physical therapy management of numerous pelvic pain disorders, including bowel, bladder and sexual dysfunction. We talked with her about some of the sources of pelvic pain, including the surprising news that hormonal birth control may be part of the problem. 1:27 what’s your approach to pelvic pain? Rachel says she deals with pain from the “ribcage to the knees,” specifically focusing on the internal muscles of the pelvic floor. We asked her exactly what that meant. The list is surprisingly long – clearly this part of the body is responsible for a heck of a lot and needs proper care and attention. 3:13 how do hormones impact our pelvic health or cause pelvic pain? Rachel also focuses a lot on the impact of hormones on that part of the body. Given that midlife and menopause are a time of enormous hormonal changes, we wanted to understand that better. Rachel explained to us how the sensitive tissue of the vagina and surrounding area are affected by estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. (here’s a fun way to increase pelvic health: get yourself an Elvie) 6:06 “no good birth control method” – what do you mean? So, what does that mean for women who take hormonal birth control? Especially women who’ve been on the Pill for a long time? Rachel says there’s no truly perfect birth control; oral contraceptives are effective, but it increases sex hormone binding globulen. The take away: the Pill can negatively impact some very sensitive tissue, so if you have a choice, consider carefully when choosing it as your contraceptive method. 8:44 please explain pain in the vestibular tissue? So, what exactly is vestibular tissue, and why is it so impactful if this area is inflamed or otherwise unhealthy? Rachel gives us a sort of private-area map and explains the consequences of hormone imbalance here and what can be done about it. 10:52 how can you tell where pelvic pain comes from? So, we asked, how do you know when pain is caused by hormonal imbalance as opposed to some other concern? You have to look at all the puzzle pieces, Rachel says; she takes us through how she puts them together to figure out what’s going on and how to fix it. 14:43 how do patients find you? How do patients find you? Is it mostly by referral? She gets a lot of referrals, Rachel says, from ob/gyns, urologists, etc., but a lot of patients simply find her on the Internet. So, shortcut Dr. Internet: if you’re having a particular problem and not getting a solution from the doctor you’re seeing, ask for a referral to a specialist. 15:50 is age a factor in pelvic pain? Do you see more older women, or do you see these patients more often? Her practice is pretty evenly distributed, Rachel says, because pelvic issues aren’t limited to age, but yeah, no surprise: age does have impacts as hormones change. So if you’re getting older and have never seen a pelvic specialist, it might be time: avoid problems in the future by being proactive! 17:29 what should patients be doing between visits? is there anything they can do? What kind of self-care should women be doing between visits to a specialist like Rachel? It depends on where you are, Rachel says; are you already in pain and need help relaxing or releasing? She gives her patients things to do between visits to help them learn to treat themselves, and that’s a Very Good Thing. 18:19 so … about that Squatty Potty®…. “We as humans were not meant to sit on the toilet to have a bowel movement.” Ooooookkaaaaaay. Not giving it up. Just sayin’. Fortunately, says Rachel, there are ways to adopt the optimal BM position without resorting to squatting in the woods. Phew! She explains why not excreting correctly can actually be pretty bad for you. (speaking of toilets, do you know how much urination is normal for you?) 20:10 before we let you go, what else should we know? “Kegels are not the answer to everything,” Rachel says. They can be good for you, but they don’t solve every issue. Best not to self-diagnose a kegel deficiency – if you’re having problems with painful sex, incontinence, bowel dysfunction, there’s help, there are resources. Seek them out and get your standard of living back. If you’ve had issues with pelvic pain or other issues related to pelvic dysfunction, would you share with us how you managed it? Let us know in the comments below, or hit us up on genneve’s Facebook page or Midlife & Menopause Solutions, genneve’s Facebook group. More about Dr. Rachel Gelman: Rachel is a Bay Area native who received her bachelor’s degree in Biology from the University of Washington in Seattle and her Doctorate in Physical Therapy from Samuel Merritt University. As you heard in the podcast, she’s passionate about women’s and men’s health and strives to promote quality education regarding pelvic health both in the clinic and in the community. We appreciate her sharing her wisdom and expertise with us! You can follow Rachel directly on social media at @pelvichealthsf on Instagram or @RachelgDPT on Twitter.

O English Experts faz 7 anos no próximo domingo e aqui quem ganha o presente é você. Preparamos um podcast especial sobre a pronúncia do inglês americano. Adir Ferreira e eu conversamos com Rachel Smith do site Rachel’s English. O assunto: Como falar inglês como um nativo (How to speak English like a native English speaker). Ouvir o English Podcast Links discutidos no podcast Stressed vs. Unstressed syllables: My New Bike! American English Imitation Exercise: What did you do today? Adir: Response Rachel Video: Sound like a Native Speaker Participação dos leitores do EE no face Transcrição Hi, English Experts friends! Welcome to this special edition of English Podcast. Today, in English, of course. I'm Alessandro Brandão from Brazil. I'm Adir Ferreira from Brazil and I'm Rachel Smith from New York City. Alessandro: Today we're going to talk a little bit about "How to speak English like a native English speaker". So, stay tuned. Let me tell you a little bit about our today's guest. Rachel lives in New York City. She was born and raised in Florida, went to college in Indiana where she studied Applied Math, Computer Science, Music and graduate school for Opera Performance in Boston. She loves being connected to people throughout the world through Rachel's English. Hi Rachel, it's a pleasure. Rachel: Hi! Alessandro: Thank you for joining us today. Rachel: Sure... Thanks for having me on. Alessandro: Great! By the way, how's Lucy? Rachel: Lucy is doing well. Yep, she's holding up well, I just rode her around Manhattan this morning, so I'm happy to have her. 02:00 Alessandro: Great! Just to let you know, Lucy is Rachel's new bike, because her old bike had been stolen and she decided to ask readers for suggestions for a new name. Of course, I was rooting for "magrela". Here in Brazil "magrela" is a common name for a bike. Did you know that? Rachel: Uh-huh… ... Well, I figured it out pretty quickly because many many people were suggesting that as a name. Alessandro: We used to say also "Camelo" or just Bike in English. Rachel: Hm-hum , yeah. Alessandro: Rachel, let me introduce you my friend and partner, Adir Ferreira. Adir: Hello, Rachel! It's a pleasure and an honor to have you with us today. Rachel: It's nice to meet you. Adir: Ohh fantastic, nice to meet you too. And as most of our listeners and readers know, I'm a huge aficionado of pronunciation studies and it is always a pleasure to feature your videos on my personal blog and on Transparent Language English blog for Portuguese speakers too, it's always always good to have you there. Rachel: Well, thank you for doing that, thank you for helping to spread the word about my work. Adir: It’s my pleasure. 03:07 Alessandro: I don't know if you remember, but Adir already sent a video response to you. It was a video about the question "What did you do today?" Do you remember? Rachel: I do actually, I just watched it again today to refresh myself and it was a great video, really appreciated it. Adir: Thank you! Rachel: You're welcome! Alessandro: Adir is the king of the pronunciation here in Brazil. Adir: So you say. So you say. Alessandro: That's why I'm so nervous today. Adir: Ahhh, Don't worry. Alessandro: So, Rachel you've been working on Rachel's English for over 4 years now. How did it all start? 03:42 Rachel: Actually I just had my five-year anniversary last… last month, so I guess I need update that information. It started in 2008, when I was living in Germany and I was studying at a language institute there to learn German and so I was hanging out with a lot of people from all over the world who were there to learn German and one person in particular that was in several of my classes ... was from Turkey and was interested in American English and, you know, Hollywood is such a great exporter of the way we speak and he found it very interesting and wanted to know h...