Podcasts about natalie oh

Alyssa: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Women of Ambition podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Calder Hulme , and today we are going to be beginning a little bit of a shift in our podcast experience together where we've been examining ambition, how women experience that and talk about that. And we're gonna continue on that same path, but I really want to start looking at how culture, ethnicity, religion, all these different things that influence our socialization, affect the way that we think about ambition and manifest it. And then some of the barriers that make it harder to be maybe. Who we want to be. And so today we're gonna look at a little bit a personal experiences of ambition, certainly, but also looking at it within the context of being a Latina in the United States. Today our guest is Natalie Alhonte . [00:01:00] Natalie was born in Bogota, Columbia and moved to the US when she was six months old. During her upbringing, she always had a passion for languages, storytelling, culture, and intersection of public policy and entrepreneurship. She moved to Washington, DC in 2001 to attend American University in their school of international service. After graduating, she began a career in global public affairs, including leading the work. For clients looking to build campaigns around ideas, not just products. After that, she moved to New York City to build a social good incubator working directly with Ariana Huffington, while in New York. She also hired, she was also hired to assist with all aspects of communication for the Brazilian government ahead of the World Cup and the Rio Olympics. Wow. Natalie then returned to Washington to help build the Latin American. Latin America Center at the Atlantic Council for her former boss, Peter. Natalie: Schechter Alyssa: Schechter. Okay, thank you. She's now the director of strategy for the Latin America Practice [00:02:00] Group at Wilkie. Also founded by a Latin. Latina and an investor in immigrant foods, a gastro advocacy restaurant dedicated to celebrating the contribution of immigrants to the United States, and she resides in Salt Lake City, Utah. Not too far from me with her husband son, Sammy and their two dogs. Thank you so much for being here today, Natalie. Natalie: Thank you so much for having me, Alyssa. Alyssa: Sorry If I, I messed up some of those words there. Reading and podcasting at the same time is rough. I'm used to just kind of going off the cuff. Natalie: It's hard. There's a lot of tongue twisters Alyssa: I'm also very, very aware that you are trilingual, at least correct Portuguese, Spanish, and English, and so, I have very minuscule knowledge of those languages, but my pronunciation is horrible at this point. No. So please forgive me and correct me. Please correct me. Natalie: Yes, absolutely. I, yeah, we're here to learn from each other. [00:03:00] Absolutely. Yes. Alyssa: Well, thank you so much for being willing to come on the show and talk about just this complex world that, that you live in and that you navigate and that you're so knowledgeable about. So to start, this is our first question we always ask, do you consider yourself to be ambitious? Natalie: Oh, I love this question. And actually I think you know, when I received the invitation to be here with you today, it really set me on sort of a journey of sort of trying that word on. I think it's been a while since I've sort of categorized myself as ambitious, but, you know, really getting familiar with the, the definition and, and. To, its very core and maybe not so much of the archetypes that maybe we have associated with it. I would definitely claim it. I, I would also say I'm very driven a funny story about that. I actually, if I had a memoir, I think I would have. Titled it Driven because I learned to drive so late in life. I actually just learned [00:04:00] to drive six months ago after being, you know, a, a, a true and blue New Yorker. But yeah, so driven, ambitious are definitely things that I would say are part of, of who I am. Ambitious for myself, but also ambitious for others, I think is another thing that I would say. I, I'm one of those people who really. Get so much in really success and. I've seen other people accomplish things like finding their own voice and seeing what they're capable of as well. But the one caveat I would say about ambition is that I would say yes, ambition, but not at any cost. Hmm. I think this is the new, the new learning for being my life.  Especially as. I've become more multi-dimensional, becoming a mother becoming a wife, becoming, you know, trying to be a better friend and also just a better, you know, person who takes care of [00:05:00] myself is saying at ambition. But there has to be a very careful consideration about what the impact is on myself, on others.  And definitely growing up in New York where there was a little bit more of a cutthroat culture being on the other side of what ambition on the negative side can look like I've always really prided myself in and to, and not being that type of person who will use anything and everything to get ahead.  Despite sort of what the repercussions could be on others around me. Alyssa: No, I, I really appreciate you saying that. I've been obviously thinking about this word for a long time now. And I've been tinkering kind of with like another kind of nuance to this word where a lot of people associate ambition with like that competitiveness and like being willing to step on other people to [00:06:00] succeed. Especially cuz I, I've been reentering academia and so there is like a lot of competition. But. Valuing ambition for itself and valuing it for other people and having it be something that is in balance with other values like community and support and You know, your other values that can kind of balance it out, I think is a really, really important part to, to that aspect. So thank you for sharing that. It's interesting to hear a lot of guests come on the show and they're like, yeah, you know, you asked me to be, to come on and I didn't know how I felt about that word, or I'm a little uncomfortable. Calling myself that. And I thought about it and it, it actually fits really well. It's like, this is the why I'm like so interested in this word and this position cuz it's like there's so many layers to what it means and what it implies to people and relationally to other people. So like the part that I, that I'm tinkering with is [00:07:00] that, Ambition is like a drive to do or succeed that for whatever reason is beyond whatever is socially expected, given the context of wherever you're in. So your family, your community, your country, your socioeconomic status, like. There's some kind of a relative piece to that that is informed by who we are. And so that's why like talking about culture is so important because that's where you really learn your values, and that's kind of where all these things get put in reference. So I'm excited to dig into that more today. Natalie: Yes, me too. No, that, I think that sounds right, and I think you're right. Sometimes we have to go back to the very root of a word and really to really understand it because there has been, there are words that are becoming so polarizing and they're misused, and language really matters, you know? Mm-hmm. If if you have. Sort of a feeling about a word. I think it's important to go back and [00:08:00] say, is that really, is that how society, is that the messages that society has given me? Or is that really what, you know, is there a, a purity to that feeling? Is there something that's very connected to values that are part of that feeling? And I think with ambition, it's, you know, it really, to me at least, it's related to courage. And courage, right? It comes from the Latin heart, right cord, which is heart and Spanish. And when you think about how much courage it takes to put yourself in uncomfortable situations, the willingness, the discipline when it comes to self-talk to, to get, to go above what's expected of you.  I think it courage and, and sort of ambition or go hand in hand. Alyssa: Yeah, I would, I completely agree with that. It's hard and it, it does take that extra bravery piece for sure. Okay, so [00:09:00] let's talk about your. Beginnings with ambition as a child, as a teen, do you, do you see pieces of that coming through in your early life? Natalie: I, I, absolutely. So I think some of my family's favorite stories you know, about me are just about sort of that independent streak that I always had. Though, you know, in the Latin culture, we're very, we have, we're taught and socialized to be very different differential to our elders and mm-hmm to the people who have traditional relationships of power, sort of like teachers, et cetera.  I think my parents did a really great job not sort of oppressing that independent spunk and streak in me to let me be sort of who I was. And I think, you know, some examples they like to tell about this are I had a ice coffee stand. A lot of children had traditional lemonade stands, [00:10:00] but I realized that our house, I, you know, I grew up in Brooklyn and our house was. On the road to sort of main subway stop, and a lot of people would commute in the mornings to go to work. So in the summer, I used to wake up really early and we would brew fresh Colombian coffee and we would, I would go out with my little wooden table and I would sell ice, fresh ice coffee to the commuters as they would head to work.  And I tried to have partners, you know, friends on the block be there with me, but nobody had the the drive to be up at. 7:00 AM to do that with me so quickly. You know, there was a rotation of partners that would come and go and nobody would stick. So I really loved the feeling of being there, being useful and being reliable to my.  To, to my customers at a really, really young age. So that, I think it's, it's a fun story that [00:11:00] they tell, but I think that's definitely who I am. Someone who likes to be useful, have an impact and sort of doesn't really see anything as impossible for better or for worse. When I was 15, I started to sort of shift that I would say ambition to social good work. And I started an organization when I was 15 years old called Teens for Humanity. And it was dedicated to raising funds and supplies for developing world, especially Latin America given, you know, that my ties. So it was an incredible experience and I think. That's sort of those leadership skills that you start to learn that are inside of you you know, would just continue to grow. But it definitely never felt like anything was impossible. I just would see any task. And the world's my mom likes to say, the world's very small for me, and I feel like that's definitely been a part of[00:12:00] what's informed, sort of my decisions, my dreams, and my goals moving forward. Alyssa: Those are fantastic examples. Holy smokes. I love, I love to visualize you on the corner street hawking your iced coffee and then being in this teen for social justice, like, that's incredible. Natalie: Well, thank you. It, it's, it's been an incredible life and so far and I'm so glad to be able to, Talk about, tell my story because it reminds me of these things. You know, it's been a long time since I thought about them and really connected with them, but definitely inside of me lies a very, very ambitious little nine year old girl who never, who never went away, luckily. Alyssa: That's awesome. Okay, so, and then obviously you've had this like really incredible career path that we're gonna talk about now.  But have there been, like growing up, were there clashes with. Culturally I You're a first gener, not even a first generation or [00:13:00] what would you call yourself? An immigrant? Yeah. I, yeah, Natalie: I'm definitely an immigrant. I'm somewhere in between. Yeah, first gen. I think it's, I sort of, I relate a lot to first generation just because I spent so much of my life in the us.  And, but. Definitely my son likes to remind me that he's actually the only person born in the United States in our family, the point of pride for him. But yeah, I, I guess somewhere between first gen and, and immigrant. Mm-hmm. Alyssa: And so navigating kind of that, like that transitional space, were there clash points there? Were your parents just really supportive of you being yourself? What was that like as growing up? Natalie: So what's really interesting is that my mom comes from a, you know, medium sized town in Columbia, in the coffee region. Pretty, you know rural I think is the wrong word, but it's sort of like what you [00:14:00] would picture, like the Napa Valley of columbia, beautiful. Rolling mountains. It's, you know, just a beautiful scenery. And my dad was born in Staten Island New York. So he's a New Yorker and up to Jewish parents. Okay. So. In my house. It was a, there was lots of paradox and contradictions. Okay. And mixed signals. So, you know, very typical sort of multi cultural, multi dimensional story. So. I had, I'd say in my home, represented two cultures that were, they couldn't be more different in terms of the value system, styles of communication, sort of the way that sort of the worldview and they were all happening. In real time in my house growing up, I also had the benefit of growing up with my grandparents. My [00:15:00] Jewish grandparents lived living up one floor above us. Oh wow. So they had a lot of influence as well in, I would say on the second floor. But my mom ran our home like a Columbian embassy within our home. It was very I would say You know, the culture of Columbia was very present. It was in the food, it was in our traditions. It was in the way that she ensured that we were connected to our roots and we understood where we came from. And she just, it was. Really important to her that we felt fully Colombian. Instead of sort of half and half, we were 100% Colombian and 100% American at the same time. So I don't know what kind of math that adds up to, but that was sort of how, how I was raised.  And I would say that through [00:16:00] that it was, The ex, through that experiment, you would see that there was a lot of mixed messages about what success really looked like. And, and that also had to do with the extended family. So, you know, in my in my household, there was definite co cohesion. But I would say that when we would look at the extended family education was so important on the, you know, Jewish immigrant side and especially given the history. But then in Latin America it was much more about sort of the markers of success were about you know, physical beauty about thinness. About, you know, what, who were you in your social standing? Are you, are you going to be an eligible candidate for good marriage? It was a very mixed bag when it came to that, so there was a lot of pressure both on the side of.[00:17:00] You know, career side, but also on the family side, all happening, I would say a hundred percent volume all at once. So that was sort of the environment in which, you know, I was raised and it taught me to really decode and question mm-hmm. What my own values are, my own thinking. But it also taught me a lot about how strong that intergenerational sort of programming can be in our own lives. Mm-hmm. Alyssa: Wow. That sounds like quite the crucible for self-discovery and. Watching your parents, I would assume, navigate that with lots of other family members around, and then you getting to go and be your own person as well. Natalie: Absolutely. I think that it really wasn't until college, until that I had the vocabulary to understand what. What all of that, you know, all those mixed messages really meant. [00:18:00] And I had the privilege really of studying with, I would say one of the fathers of cultural anthropology, and his name was Dr. Weaver at American University. And he really taught. Us all about what culture shock looks like. Mm-hmm.  And how it's not just when you go abroad, but if you're living in a multicultural society. If you are multicultural, how the, how experiencing culture shock can really impact you and you're sort of psychological framework, long term and really all the resilience that it gives you. Because, you know, I, there's by no means do I want. You know, the takeaway to be like being multicultural actually is traumatic. It's not, I mean, it, it gives you so many magical powers. But at the same time, if you don't understand sort of the language around it it, it can. It can be challenging. And so I was grateful to have [00:19:00] the language around understanding and mapping culture and understanding the different components of what makes a culture. I think in the US we're not really even that aware that we have a culture. And so it always shocks people that we have one, but we do, you know, and, and I think that understanding what you know, what those components can really help us. Empowers us to be to, to take, to make the most out of being able to navigate many different cultures. Yeah. Alyssa: Thank you. One of the things that I really wanna focus on today is that kind of culture crossing. I, I'm calling it border crossing because we're talking to you, a Latina woman who literally crossed a border to come here. A lot of your work is international but also as a metaphor of navigating different spaces, navigating that liminal in between space.  [00:20:00] Maybe translating between two very different. Social, cultural, linguistical locations, value systems. That is, that I, I think of it as like a superpower in a way that clearly you had to earn and was a lot of work. But it gives you an ability to, like you're saying, see nuance navigate spaces, a code shift Mentally, linguistically, you know, so many, so many different things like that. So let's talk a little bit about how that has impacted your career and your work. I feel like every single point on your resume is a fantastic example of this. But is there, is there a space where you can kind of talk about that, that border crossing experience? Natalie: Absolutely, and I think you know, when I was in college I sort of I knew I wanted to do something international, and I knew that that was [00:21:00] what sparked my joy, was to learn about other cultures and to learn about other ways of life. And just had this insatiable hunger for international things. I mean music and, and food. And I, and I knew I had this ability to be a bridge because I had done it my whole life. I had. Acted that way since I could remember to really help. Sort of be an intermediary when maybe, you know, there's this image that I like where you're holding a beach ball and on the left side it's white and the right side it's black. And you know, both people are screaming at the top of their lungs that what? It's white or black and you're holding it at the middle. So you could sort of see the delineation of both. And that I think, has been a metaphor that I've sort of used throughout my life. And it also gave me the resilience to sort of enter into this. International relations space with global affairs [00:22:00] space, which traditionally is, there's a pretty high bar of entry into those spaces in DC and there's a lot of elitism associated with it. It's a lot about the connections of who you know and what private or prep school you went to and you know who you're father golfs with, and I came to DC with zero of those things, you know, absolutely none of them except all of the knowledge of the that my parents really gave me about my history and where I came from. And I remember. You know, I got hired by this very elite public affairs firm who worked on crisis communications, international campaigns, and really high stakes issues. And my first week just being completely overwhelmed by just how much I didn't know, even though I had already been in DC for four years and lived and breathed [00:23:00] it just. Felt completely like an imposter. And I know that this is something that comes up a lot here on the podcast. Yes, it does. Remember at that time I was working as an assistant to one of the lead partners and he he, I was in there talking about something and I think he said to me something like, you know, I don't want you scheduling me at this specific time. And I said, you know, okay. But he was very mad at me because I had made a mistake on his schedule, and he said I don't need, you're okay. And then I just looked at him and I said, no. I say okay, as if I understand the information. Mm-hmm. And one of the other senior partners heard it and like went running to say, actually, I think she's gonna survive. I had this grit inside of me. This fire. Good for you. So this senior partner tells that story a lot about, [00:24:00] you know, this the fire that it really takes. To be underestimated time and time and time again. And having to look in the eyes of the person that, or under that is your underestimate and not go down, but to just rise above. And it's just something that happens at a moment. But it is, I think, the most crucial thing that I learned because I learned that nothing defines me but me.  And if people don't really understand who I am and what are capable of, they just have to wait. They have and they will see and not just, you know, I think that it was, that is definitely a superpower that I got from being misunderstood. People never knew where, where to put me growing up. You know, she's not Latina, but she is, but she speaks Spanish, but she was born in Colombia, but she looks Russian. Like, who are you? What are you? So I was used to. Being misunderstood. And so I take it upon my speech to, to help people [00:25:00] really get to know who I am and what I'm capable of. And so those are the beginnings in public affairs. And just, I grew a lot by being myself. I didn't conform I would say in many ways, which unfortunately is, I think.  The story of what is asked of many people who are not traditional or underrepresented in some way. But I really pushed hard to, to go against the grain and there was a space for me to, to be myself. And as my sort of career progressed and the people within the firm saw how I was able to connect with clients. It almost created a boomerang effect where they started to respect me because they could see how I had the decoding gift that you were talking about where mm-hmm. I knew if there was someone who wants to go straight to business, you go straight to [00:26:00] business. If there was someone who wants to get to know you because there's a trust element that needed to happen before you jump straight in, you give them that. You're generous with yourself, you're generous with your time, and you allow them to get to know you on their time, not on what you expect is the timing that it should happen. And I think it was the. This sort of ability to understand those nuances that helped me continue to grow and to manage your position and then to be able to build my own things when I was at the Huffington Post and then being asked to come back to DC by that same senior partner who yell. To come back and help him build a a Latin America think tank in dc. The agility of being able to climb up and climb down constantly were I think things that really have served me well in my career. Alyssa: I love that example. That's so [00:27:00] fantastic. So, so many of the, the things that you just mentioned are topics that I've been thinking with. So that like being, being able to jump between places, but then also weaving between them to kind of create where you get to exist as yourself, even if other people. Can't place you like you're creating your own self. And then being, being a bridge maker and having it be this unique thing that you are bringing to the table because of your values and your, your upbringing and all these things that you have that. Actually helps you in your career and in your personal ambitions, but, but comes from like this culturally located place of community and nuance and like you are able to see and sense things that other people can't, who haven't had to stretch themselves really. Natalie: That's right. And yeah. Oh, and I think that obviously, you know [00:28:00] those are sort of the, the positive baggage that I bring to the table. But I, you know, there are also things that I struggle with and I think that those are also a big part of Understanding the, the importance of being humble, of looking at life as an eternal learner. Because you know, if you're trilingual, you're always gonna mess up a certain sentence or you're always going to like, make something feminine that's masculine and you, this is a life log. You're never gonna be fully fluent, in one language. So I think that's also helped me understand that To understand people, not just by how they communicate in maybe their second or third or fourth language. And, and to be humble about being able to learn from everyone. Cause I think that there's, I've been on the other side where I've seen microaggressions and I've seen people being [00:29:00] underestimated just because maybe English is their second language or they're not able to express as fluently as they can in their native language. So I think that's also the other side as, as well. Alyssa: So how, How do you build resilience to being complete, to being mis can't even think of the right word, but being misunderstood. Underestimated not being legible to people because they can't categorize you. I am sh I know from my personal, smaller experiences with that, that that's really exhausting. So, Can you speak to that a little bit? Natalie: Well, absolutely. I mean, obviously I don't wanna paint the situation with rose colored glasses, right? Because we look at the current state of sort of Latinas in the United States, right? And we see the the mount that we represent as it. Relates to the population versus positions of [00:30:00] leadership.  Looking at the C-Suite for example, I mean I wrote down, just jotted down these numbers just because I think they're so super important to talk about, but, you know, Latinos represent 62.5 million people, right? So that's 19% of the population. But when you look at the amount of people in senior leadership, I mean, it goes down. Substantially. So 2% of women are in senior leadership positions are in the board in the boardroom. And, and this are like Forbes, you know, the, the biggest company is ranked by Forbes and 1% if you look just at corporate boards and not at positions of leadership. So there are, there is a real problem, you know, in our society and, and in the way that the game is structured. For the ascension of Latinas. So I think that that's really important to say and[00:31:00] it's important to sort of, to look at what the, you know, kind of what's against us. So we're swimming upstream and mm-hmm. How exhausting it can be. So I would say like, kind of life. Taught me resilience. It it was every time I was not invited, you know, to a pitch meeting or that I had done all the work for and I had to advocate for myself to be there. Or when a client, you know, assumed something went wrong, but hadn't actually looked at his or her email to show that it was, it had been sent and he. These little things where people just automatically assume that you are the one that messed up because they haven't seen enough people that look or sound like you in positions of authority. There's just this thing that happens in their brain when things go wrong. And I think so it is sort of just life that. That teaches us to be resilient. But I think the other big thing, [00:32:00] and this definitely comes from the culture, is the sense of humor. You know, to, there's nothing that can break a tense and difficult moment that you know, nothing that can do that. Like a sense of humor. And that's something I learned from my culture and it's something that I take with me because. You know it, unless we are able to sort of laugh at these terrible things that happen, I mean, maybe not right away, but eventually with communities of people who have who have built things alongside us. I think it's really difficult and participating in spaces like this one, Alyssa, where you, that you're building where people can come and tell their story. I mean, these are the ways that we can sort of take a step back, realize that. What happens to us is not personal. It's not really about, though it feels so personal in the moment. It's not personal because it's a common experience that so many of us have, and you don't have to be, Latinas have experienced this, right? Mm-hmm. I'm sure if you have 10 women all around [00:33:00] in this, in this conversation with us, that everyone could tell a thousand stories just like mine. So I think that's also really important is to, to remind us that if we celebrate who we are, You know, the way my mom celebrated our culture and our house, if we celebrate who we are and somebody doesn't understand or value it, to know that the problems with them and not with us. It's not that our culture is somehow wrong, it's that person just hasn't had the pleasure of understanding our culture and getting to know it better. Alyssa: Thank you. I think that's, that's really true and it's again, how community fits into to achieving, to doing, to building whatever it is that we feel driven to do. And it's, it's such an essential part because. We can't do it alone. I dunno, maybe maybe [00:34:00] a white guy can do it alone. A straight white guy can do it alone, maybe. But more likely there's an invisible community that of support that is not being represented. But those of us who aren't in that dominant. Position of, of privilege and power. We need our community and we need that support to kind of get through it. And I love humor as one of the, one of the tools to, to healing and to health and normalizing something that we're being told is so abnormal. Natalie: Absolutely. Absolutely. Alyssa: Alright. So maybe let's talk a little bit more about the specific areas that you've worked in. You've done, so you've done crisis response work, like you said, you and we talked, mentioned briefly the World Cup and the Olympics. And you were also a TV commentator for us Latin American relations. So you're doing all of this [00:35:00] work with these different places and different value systems. How, like, like I just talking even politically about different countries and navigating those relationships what has that been like to hold maybe two value systems and have to like, make them legible to each other? Yeah, Natalie: no, I think that's a really, really good question. And, you know, I can talk a little bit first about the world cup and the Olympics work. So when I was in New York and I was a new mom I had. A conversation with a former colleague and you know, was really telling her about how burnt out I was feeling. I mean, one of the big characteristics of crisis communication is that you have to be on 24 7 and having to be a new mom. I really felt like it wasn't it wasn't a, I couldn't give 100%. To really anything [00:36:00] and I didn't feel like I was I felt like I was failing, you know? And, and I, I felt like I was sort of the reputation that I had as like the person that was always on it. I just couldn't be that person anymore. And, This friend said to me well, why don't you work with me on this project? The Brazil government is looking for someone to help promote these beautiful destinations in Brazil. And I said, oh my gosh, this sounds like the easiest job on earth. Like, why? You know, is this real? Is this real? Like, and so, well, of course, you know, nothing is ever as good as it sounds because. The largest protests in Brazilian in Brazil's history after the fall of the dictatorship were catalyzed by the overruns in the World Cup and the Olympics. And we were sort of the only us leg, arms and legs on the ground in many of [00:37:00] these spaces. And we thought we were gonna be there, you know, talking about beautiful beaches of Rio de Janeiro. But we were preparing like. Crisis communication decks and sort of media audits about what's being said. And I was accompanying a minister, the minister of sports minister towards them, to the editorial board meetings at the New York Times, at the Wall Street Journal to talk about, you know, stadiums and man, and why there is one and, and just, I had to fire a translator on the spot in one of those meetings because she was just translating the minister. With really just messing up the translation and just like these things, you know, I kept thinking, where's the fun? When is the fun gonna start? Cause this was not fun. This was way more difficult than I had imagined. But it was an amazing experience, of course, as everything is looking back, you know, really to understand. Sort of the power of civil society and having [00:38:00] their voice heard especially in democracies and how important those those protests were to Brazil. So that was a moment where I would say I was kind of thrown into the deep end into, in a really. Amazing moment in Brazil's history. And I think that has helped me really understand like the power of social media the power to, to create movements because WhatsApp and Twitter were so such a big part of kind of building that social movement and really understand the inner workings of a government a lot better. So that's definitely an example of, I would say where you, I I was definitely buckling my seatbelt in, in that situation, but it was, it was a really intense, but great time to learn. Mm-hmm. Alyssa: Sounds complicated and [00:39:00] exciting and exhausting all at once. Natalie: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. My Portuguese definitely got a lot better after that writing and reading a lot, and Portuguese and so that's always a great, a great outcome. Well, that's wonderful. Alyssa: So. If working in these different spaces with these different groups of people, do you see, do you see the nuance in, in value in maybe how ambition is perceived in different places in Latin America versus the United States? Can you talk a little bit about that, kind of maybe on a more broad level, and then if there is a gender component that you saw, I'd appreciate hearing your perspective. Natalie: Absolutely. Well, I think what's really interesting, and I think a lot of people consider themselves, you know, Latin Americanists They have trouble with Brazil. They have trouble sort of becoming a part of the ingroup in Brazil because the country of [00:40:00] Brazil is such a massive place and it's been sort of because it speaks Portuguese and speaks Spanish and sort of has a unique history and culture, it really is isolated. From the rest of the world. So the amount of, I would say trust that a person that is working in Brazil can can obtain just by understanding the culture, understanding the language, the basic customs is incredible. It's not the same as the rest of, of Latin American in many ways because it isn't Americanized. Mm-hmm. So like Columbia, we've always had a lot of connection. Mexico, you go to Mexico, there's always been a ton of connection. Between the United States and and you know, better and worse, right? There's been mm-hmm. Negative impacts that the US have ha has had, but also it's just, there's a very close relationship. Brazil is different. It's very isolated in many ways. So I would say that taking the time to really understand the culture, [00:41:00] and I was lucky, I studied abroad in Brazil. My husband is Brazilian, so that's another big component of understanding the culture. But. I think there is a, there's a coup, there's so many levels. I mean, you and I, you know, we were talking before about the sort of high context, low context cultures, the to be cultures, the to-do cultures, you know? Alyssa: Do you wanna share that a little bit? Because it, it fits so well with what I'm re learning and researching right now. Natalie: Yes. Yeah. So when I was you know, Learning more about cultural anthropology. I think one of the coolest ways and, and I think there's more contemporary work on this as well there's a book called The Culture Map that I think has gained a lot of popularity is really understanding different cultures and sort of where they fall on broad questions. And these two broad questions are, Sort of the, something called a high context culture in a low context culture or a to be or todo culture. So what that [00:42:00] means is you know, there are, if you're in a part of a to-do culture, it's really about efficiency. It's about sort of what you achieve. It's about sort of an individual perspective of achievement. And it's very low context, meaning that, Even if you were dropped in that country and you're doing business for the first time in that country and you were someone who sort of was pretty literal and direct, you would do really well in that country.  In terms of relationships as well, when you are looking at, you know, the US as a part of that, I would say Germany I think is a pretty, when we're looking at architecture, He's always sort of looked at at Switzerland. On the other side of that are the to be cultures or the high context cultures where these are cultures that have a lot of gray. Lines, there's a lot of subtexts, a lot of focus on [00:43:00] where, who are your, who is your family? You know, where did you sort of, where do you fall in like in sort of the social casts within a country. And those are the cultures where it takes a long time to really understand the nuance to be effective at communications because there's so many unwritten rules.  About what you can do and what you can't do. So I would say Brazil is very much, and all of Latin America is on that sort of the high context to to be scale. But Brazil, I would think, I think is at the very top of that because they have so much of their own way of develop of, you know, sort of. Their own rules and customs that are unique to Brazil. There's no other places that you'll be able to find it. And those who don't really understand the culture have a lot of trouble being effective in it. And those who take the [00:44:00] time, you know, even to learn to sort of basic Portuguese about the differences between the different regions, the history understanding where you give one kiss and where you give two; we use our small protocol type. Things, but they make a huge difference in a culture like that where your relationships and sort of who you are on that scale mean everything. And I think that it's important to say that both cultures are both humane and inhumane at the same time. Because in a to-do culture, it's all about. What you achieve, it's not really about who you are, but in a to be culture, it's really the hard part is social mobility. You know, if you're born into a certain class or a cast, you know it's hard to move up. It's hard to be seen as other because you are sort of as ascribed of value based on sort of where you fall in that. scale. So those are super important nuance I think that I try to keep in in mind when I [00:45:00] am doing business internationally. And where I, when I'm working, collaborating across borders is to really understand those nuances and to, to continue to learn. You know, one tip I always give to people is just do a Google search, A Google news search for that country.  The day before you talk to somebody from that country and see what's going on in the news. Take five minutes. I think as Americans we're, we're not really conditioned to do that. But it's, it just goes such a long way to be able to build relationships for those high context cultures when you at least take the time to know.  A little bit about what's going on, what's current, and ask questions and be curious. I think people, it really goes a long way to building those relationships. Yeah. Alyssa: That's so interesting. That's a really, really good tip. I'm wondering if, you know if you know the answer to this question, maybe you don't, but how the [00:46:00] different indigenous populations kind of affect. The differences in the regions. And then of course, you know how colonization has kind of shaped the culture of different countries and different regions. Can you speak to that at all? Natalie: I mean, there are, I can speak more in terms of the presence of sort of Generally right now that there's, yeah, I would say a moment where we are celebrating indigenous culture in a way that we really haven't before. I think that in our minds, we were all, we all felt very separate. You know, like we, we would learn about these indigenous cultures, the Inca, the Mayans, the Aztecs, and we would look at them. Right in Brazil UA Paraguay, and we would sort of look at and our, you know, our indigenous in the United States where We would see each of these cultures as a really, a small and isolated [00:47:00] pocket. But I think as people have studied them more, and I think John Zamo, if you haven't seen his sort of one man show when he talks about this, you know, 97% of the d of indigenous cultures from the top of the Americas to the very bottom. Is the same. So we have this unique shared culture. Though the co obviously there's nuances, but think that there was, it's a very sort of colonist and European mindset to see each of them as unique and separate because it takes away the power from the holistic sort of story about this continent and about sort of the indigenous culture. And I think some countries have been really great about conserving and celebrating the history. I think no cult culture has been great at it. I, I should say. But there, yes, yes. Let's be [00:48:00] clear. We've all been terrible, Alyssa: but we've all been terrible. Some have maybe been worse for longer. Natalie: Absolutely. And you know, you, if you look at, there's this beautiful museum in Mexico City called the Mu Museum of Anthropology. And it's this beautiful, giant, gorgeous museum dedicated to understanding the roots of the Mayan societies and really teaching an Aztec and really teaching people about that history. Our history, right? If, if you are a part of the Americas, it's, it's, it's a collective experience to understand who we are. And so I would love to see that in the United States, and there's a beautiful Smithsonian museum. But I don't think that we have this widespread understanding of how we connect in terms of our shared history with our indigenous people and. In some countries, like [00:49:00] if you look in the southern cone the eradication of the indigenous populations was. Almost absolute, you know, it's genocide. And so each of these countries has had their own unique story with, with sort of celebrating those roots or sweeping it under the rug, as I think probably happens a lot.  But it, in it is influenced, I mean, I think. Right now, I think it was a couple of years ago, the first time that Vogue, Mexico had an indigenous woman on the cover cause of Roma, the movie Roma. And I mean, it was a huge uproar. I mean, in a great way because. A lot of people didn't say, didn't realize we had never seen that before. Mm-hmm. You know, and, and the lack of social mobility I think has been, it's been really damaging. But I think that, you know, in terms of your question about sort of how that has [00:50:00] shaped our identity Countries that celebrate and understand those roots I think are much more connected to, to who we all are, you know, as a collective Americas and in Columbia, I can speak to that. There is this sort of movement now to Bring forward a lot of the replicas of indigenous jewelry. I know that not all of your readers can see it, but I'm actually wearing one right now where we have beautiful gold pieces in Columbia you know, it was called, right? Mm-hmm. Because of the gold. So much gold came from Columbia and the we're starting to to sort of assimilate that. That celebration of indigenous culture into you know, quote unquote mainstream, which was European culture for so long, and get curious and, and get, and I hope to see that [00:51:00] continue. I definitely don't think we're there by any means, but especially if you look at sort of political power, right? Mm-hmm. How, how European white male. It is. But there are, I think, beautiful social movements that are happening across the Americas to sort of tell those stories and to and to better understand them. Yeah. Thank you. Alyssa: Yeah, they're certainly a long way to go there, and I think we are better when we embrace our history and open our eyes to it because we have to be able to understand the ongoing effects. Of our, of my place. Like I have mostly colonizer ancestry and some indigenous ancestry. And it's, it's a lot to confront for myself and for my family. But denying that and pretending that I'm just here of my own volition is just, it's totally ignorant and it just perpetuates [00:52:00] ongoing harm, and I lose out on the beauty and the, the dreaming and the, the community and the connection and things that I, I am now being able to reincorporate with that, like wider, wider eyes, a wider embracive truth. Natalie: Absolutely. And, and we're so much better when we know our history, you know? Mm-hmm. And. I think our ancestors, they want us to know, they want us to know the history.  And because if we are, we stand on their shoulders. I think that's a really important thing to because I think so many of us, we have oppressive and oppressor oppressed And oppressor genetics. You know, and if we're, if you are on the America's continent, there's going to be, it's, it's a mixed bag. But I think the more we know, the more we don't repeat history hopefully.[00:53:00] Alyssa: Yeah. I'm with you there. And that's kind of where I'm coming at this project of ambition, of trying to figure out like, what does it mean to different people? What does it mean to different cultures? Is it. Competitive have to step on other people to achieve. Can it be something that it is communally beneficial? And I think it can, but we have to really unpack a lot of that, like generational trauma and colonizer mindset and the ignorance that we've allowed and supported and that we're all, you know, complicit into one degree or another. Cuz. There are a lot of toxic things that originally were really beautiful or, or are really healthy in other spaces that we can reincorporate and heal with and learn from. So thank you for sharing all of your experiences today. Oh, Natalie: it's my pleasure. It's been such a pleasure speaking with you today, and I think this project is such an [00:54:00] important one. I hope we'll all own the word ambition a little bit more in healthy way, in a good way, in a healthy way, Alyssa: in balance with our, our values and our community and all those things.  Absolutely. In closing, is there anything that you would like to say to ambitious Latinas out there speaking to them directly maybe? Natalie: Yes, Absolutely. I mean, I think that. The, the, our time is coming. I think if we just look at the demographics, if we look at sort of the amazing influence that we've been able to have on it, on this country as Latinos living in the us our time is coming to really to shine. So it's gonna be, It's gonna be upon us to be ready as, as that moment appears. And I just wanna give a huge shout out to Julissa ak, who's [00:55:00] a Read, who's a book that, who wrote a book called, you Sound like a White Girl. I'm currently reading that. I suggest it and I suggest America Ferreras Ted Talk so much for those who haven't listened to it, to really understand our superpower as Latinas.  And just, you know, thank you for having me here today. Alyssa: Thank you so much. Oh, so, so good. Do you have any current projects or things you wanna plug? I think you have a restaurant going on right now. Natalie: Yeah. So I am an investor in a restaurant in Washington DC called Immigrant Food. Our flagship is half a block from the White House, and obviously it wasn't a coincidence that we opened it during the Trump administration when there was so much negative rhetoric about immigrants forgetting that we are all immigrants if you're not indigenous. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we're all here. So no, definitely if you're in Washington DC check out immigrant food. Also if [00:56:00] you are you'd like to connect, so please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn, Natalie ote on LinkedIn and just thank you so much for having me here. Awesome. Alyssa: Thank you. That is, that's a quite the, the delicious, ambitious little pump to end on. So thank you so much. And yeah, thank you. I am sure everyone is just gonna be so thrilled to listen to. So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Women of Ambition podcast. Natalie was such a fantastic guest. We covered so many different topics and ideas that I wanna continue to expand on and explore throughout our podcast time together, especially as we look at how social locations change the way we view the world, they inform our values and inform. What resources we have access to. So those are some of the things we're gonna continue to look at on the podcast. If you would like to read a transcription of the podcast or share it that way, I'm going to figure out a way to add the transcription to my [00:57:00] website, women of admission podcast.com. This will allow guests to go back and annotate and edit anything that they wanna clarify or comment on. So if that's helpful to you, please let me know. It is quite a labor. Of work to transcribe. So I'm gonna try and do that more moving forward if that is helpful to anybody out there. So just let me know, drop me a line if that's something that is beneficial. You can also interact more with the podcast on Instagram. My handle is Women of Admission podcast. So check us out there and we will continue to have some really awesome guests moving forward and some new and exciting things over the next couple of months. So look out for those. Thanks so much for listening.

“Let's make every birth the best possible version of that birth that it can be.”Dr. Natalie Elphinstone is a true trailblazer! When one of her patients asked about the possibility of a maternal-assisted Cesarean, she listened intently, took the idea to heart, and advocated for change by creating a new hospital policy to allow this beautiful procedure. Dr. Elphinstone is creating a whole new experience for Cesarean moms as they get to deliver their babies, hold them first, have uninterrupted skin-to-skin time, and feel like birthing women instead of patients on an operating table. Dr. Elphinstone shares how she was able to make this change, how we can implement this procedure in our areas, and even offers some VBAC tips as she is a big VBAC advocate as well! We are SO honored to have her with us today.Additional LinksDr. Elphinstone's InstagramDr. Elphinstone's Introduction PostHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode DetailsFull TranscriptMeagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link, you guys. This is Meagan, your host, and I am so excited to be here with you today. Today's guest is an amazing OBGYN in Australia. She has caught over 1500 babies and believes in supporting women and families to make individual choices that feel right for them. You guys, she is making such a big impact in Australia and I am just so excited to pick her brain and hear more of her journey about how she has been changing the norm in Australia. Review of the Week We have a Review of the Week so of course, I'm going to jump into that before we start with Dr. Natalie. Okay, so today's review is actually pretty short. It's from Dr. Steven Roushar who is amazing. We actually have him on a podcast probably back in the early one-hundreds. He is a chiropractor and his wife has also had a VBAC. He said, “The VBAC Link is phenomenal. Great podcast content and training for birth workers.” Thank you, Dr. Roushar. We are so happy that you love The VBAC Link. We love you and believe in chiropractic care so much. As usual, if you have not had an opportunity to leave The VBAC Link a review, we would love that. I love getting these reviews. It makes me smile and we love reading them on the podcast. So push pause right now, and head over to Apple on iTunes. You can leave us a review. A 5-star review would be awesome along with a written review. You can do it on Google. You can do it on Facebook or you can email us. Wherever it may be, we would love your reviews. Dr. Natalie ElphinstoneMeagan: Okay, Dr. Elphinstone, we are so excited to have you. We are so grateful for you. I know your time is precious in OB-land. You are obviously seeing a ton of births. So grateful to have you. Again, thank you so much for being here. In the birth world, we get these comments sometimes, “You're The VBAC Link, I have a girl crush on you.” I am girl-crushing on Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. She is the freaking coolest. You are so cool. I am so honored to have you on the show today and I'm so honored for her to share with you her knowledge because you guys, you are going to fall in love with her too. If you don't follow her Instagram, right now, press pause and go check her Instagram. Do you have a Facebook too? I think we just follow you on Instagram. Dr. Natalie: Yeah, sadly I just do the Instagram thing. Meagan: That is okay. You are @drnatalieelphinstone, right? Dr. Natalie: Yep, all one word. One really long word. Meagan: One really long word, but you guys, it's amazing. I want to do a little bit of a background. This is how I found her. I actually found her off a video. You may have seen these going around of a maternal-assisted Cesarean delivery. It brought me chills. It made me cry. I was just like, “Oh my gosh. I want to do this. I want to have this option here in the U.S.” She is in Australia too, so not here in the U.S. I don't even know. Your page just started blowing up and this video started going viral. I shared it and I think I wrote you. I think I just wrote you and was like, “Wow, this is amazing,” or something. Crazy enough, we had some crazy emails coming through like, “That's fake. That's not real. It's a simulation.” I was like, “What? No.” Anyway, so I wrote Dr. Elphinstone and I just said, “Hey, I would love to have you on the podcast.” She is so gracious and said yes, so we are going to dive right in. I always say “dive right in” but we are diving right in to learn more about what she does and how she is truly changing the birth world in Australia. Okay. Dr. Natalie: Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for even thinking of having me come and talk on a podcast that of course, tends to be concentrating on VBACs, yet yes. I am getting known for this maternal or parent-assisted Cesarean. And so to be honest, it took me a little bit by surprise that you thought maybe I would be somebody to talk to. I mean, the whole thing took me by surprise. When I started off just sharing some of the videos of my maternal-assisted Cesareans, it was not with any kind of intention of trying to be this game changer. I actually just wanted to show something that we did that was really, really awesome and maybe with it, that idea of, “Well, if we can do it here, then maybe it can inspire other people to open up their mind to this possibility as well.” And then, it kind of just blew up as you said. It started getting reshared. I started getting contacted by people all around the world asking for my help and my advice on how they could possibly do it in their country. I'm super, super honored to be able to share my journey and my knowledge. To date now, I can say that– I was just contacted today by another country over the weekend who contacted me to say, “Thank you very much for the information that you shared. It was able to allow me this opportunity to do a maternal-assisted Cesarean for possibly the first time in my country.”  This was Ireland, so I'm pleased to say that Ireland is the sixth country that I'm aware of that I've been able to help impact at least one individual person. This is just mind-blowing to me and I feel so privileged to be able to not do anything special. I don't think I'm doing anything special. I'm just open to changing my practice and then sharing it so that it is seen that it is something that is possible. When you then get people that say, “That's fake,” I mean, oh. That actually just makes me really sad. It makes me really sad that this idea of what I'm showing, a maternal-assisted Cesarean, is so far removed from what they believe to be reality and what they know in their world that they think it must be fake. That's actually sad to me. Meagan: I'm with you. Me too. It does. It breaks my heart that this world has come to the point where we are so blinded, we are so closed-minded, and just looking down this tunnel that we can't see the possibilities outside of the norm. Dr. Natalie: Yeah, yeah. That's what it is for me. This is just me thinking with an open mind, “Can we do something different?” If the answer is yes, then why don't we? Why can't we and how do we make that happen? So that's how I started. Meagan: Right, I know. That's what I love. It's going to take someone to get it started for it to happen. Here you are. You're doing it. You are doing it and you are changing it. It's hopefully just going to trickle on down and spread throughout the world to see that Cesarean birth can be different. It can be different. Each video, they are all different. Sometimes, I have seen that you've got videographers or someone in the OR even on the other side. You've got two different views of baby coming out. You have mom reaching down and pulling baby out, and then we have the other side where the amniotic fluid is pouring out. It's just so dang cool. It's so dang cool. I love it. For my second Cesarean, I watched it in a mirror. I wasn't able to be a part of my birth in the way that you are creating people to be a part of their birth, but I saw it in the mirror and it was really cool and really special. That right there, that and the skin-to-skin that I was able to get made the difference and created the healing for an undesired Cesarean birth that I had. It truly created that healing aspect. I'm just going to shoot it out there. How? You're seeing it in your head and you're like, “We're going to do this.” What kind of flack or backlash did you get or pushback did you get in your space there in Australia? What did you get there and how did you personally push back? Dr. Natalie: Yeah. It's a really good question because I think everybody who has wanted to pursue this journey comes back and says, “But I'm getting met with these challenges and I'm getting met with these accusations. I'm just getting shut down.” I think that probably everybody will meet some of those challenges. And yes, I've met those challenges too. My journey of how this happened to me, and I always tell this story because I think it's a really important part of this story. This wasn't on my radar. To be honest, I didn't think of it myself. I had a single patient come to me who I was looking after for her antenatal course. It was her first baby. She had decided for various reasons that a Cesarean birth was the way that she was going to go. She came to me and said, “I've seen on somebody else's social media this idea of a dad-assisted Cesarean, a partner-assisted Cesarean.” She said, “Can we do that?” I said, “Well, I've never seen that happen before in real life. It's definitely never been done at this hospital. I don't know that it's ever been done anywhere in my area before,” and so one easy spot to stop there would be for me to say, “So no, we can't do that,” and that would have been a really easy answer. But instead, I went, “Well, maybe. Why not? Why can't we do that? That does seem pretty cool. That does seem like it might be a really valuable thing if that's something that you want to do. So how do we make that happen?” So my point is, number one, this whole thing started with one person, one patient herself coming to me saying, “Can we do this?” It can start really, really small. I was in a privileged position where I had the opportunity to go basically straight to the top of the hospital. So I'm talking about working in a private hospital in Australia for this scenario, so I literally just went to the CEO of the hospital. I asked her, I said, “I don't know how to make a new procedure happen. Tell me what I need to do to be able to make this happen.” I mean, number one I asked her, “Are you on board? Can I make this happen?”To be fair, I was expecting to be shut down at that point, but my gosh, she said yes. She said, “That sounds like, yeah. Why not?” A very quick answer would be that when it always comes down to new procedures, is there a value in it? Is there an importance? Does it achieve something so to speak? And then the second thing, is it dangerous or are there risks or are there concerns about that? If you can tick off those two boxes, then yeah. We can do a new procedure. But there are some hoops to jump through. She told me what those hoops to jump through were. I had to write a policy. Hospitals always want to know this very streamlined checklist of how you do this new procedure. And then I had to get that policy approved by the various levels of boards if you like at the hospital, so I had to present this to a couple of different meetings. That's where things got really interesting. I can write a policy. I can write a protocol. That's just me sitting at the desk and talking stuff out, but then presenting this idea to boards of people to get a general consensus that this seems like a good thing to do, I guess I was really naive going into that. I guess I believed that this was a really important thing to do, so I probably expected that everybody else would as well, but clearly not. That was definitely my naivety at play there. I then got met with challenges from the people hearing it. Everything they just laughed off like, “That sounds like the most ridiculous thing in the world.” I guess when you are talking to surgeons for example, surgeons, yes. We operate. People are asleep and we cut them open and we do a procedure. There are a lot of these rules around that to keep it sterile and to keep it clean and to keep it safe. To be fair, here I am suggesting that this woman who is awake and having her operation is going to literally reach down into her own open wound and pull out her baby. So yeah, okay. I get why it might sound ridiculous if you don't have the understanding of the fact that this is birth rather than it being an operation. I think that's a really important part to remember. I hope that none of us ever forget when we are doing any kind of Cesarean or any kind of instrumental birth or whatever that this is not just a procedure that we are performing on somebody. This is their birth. This is the thing that they are going to remember forever. So even if this is the 5th Cesearean I've done this morning and I'm getting a bit hungry or I'm a bit bored or whatever, oh my gosh. That's not the point. The point is to remember that this is the most astounding thing that has ever happened in this woman's life and in this family's life so let's make it really, really special. Anyway, I digress. I digress. Meagan: Absolutely. You digress in a good direction though because it's so true. I'm sure. I'm not a provider. I don't know. I'm sure it just gets repetitive, right? Dr. Natalie: Yeah, it can. Meagan: Walk in. Catch a baby. Walk in. Have a Cesarean. But if you can, if you can walk in. If you are a birth worker and you are listening, and that goes for all birth workers, walk in and truly hold space for that person and be there for that person because it is something that they are going to remember forever. You probably aren't going to remember two months down the road, but they will. Dr. Natalie: I think that's something that hopefully every provider continues to keep in the forefront of their mind. I think I've certainly had the times where let's be honest, sometimes I haven't honored the birth experience, or perhaps it's a Cesarean and often we then think that the woman's really distracted now. The baby's out. She's focusing on the baby and we're just getting on with the rest of the operation and closing her up, and often, let's be fair, I am just having a conversation with my colleagues around me. I've had that not come back to bite me because I don't think I've ever said anything inappropriate in that situation, but the women and the partners have come back and said, “Oh yeah. We heard you chatting about other things.” Actually, a lot of the time when they are telling me that, they are telling me that they were kind of reassured by that because they knew that if I was just perhaps having this general chitchat then clearly I wasn't worried about anything in their operation. Meagan: Yeah, I can see that. It is interesting though because, with my first baby, that's what I remember. I don't remember my baby's cry. I don't remember seeing my baby. I remember the doctor and the assistant on the other side of the curtain talking about how terrible the storm was outside and how one just got back from Hawaii and was so depressed. That's what I remember about my birth. Dr. Natalie: Yeah, yeah. I don't quite know what the answer to that is because it is going to be this balance between definitely wanting to honor that birth space, but yes at the same time, we are humans too and it is our job. We love our job, but sometimes yes. Part of that job is bonding with our colleagues as well. Meagan: Talking on the job. Yeah, talking on the job. That's what you do. Dr. Natalie: That's always a wake-up call for us to always be really mindful of even just what that general chitchat might be that, okay yeah. Let's talk about our holidays. That's a good memory, but maybe let's not complain about something else like another colleague down the road. Let's keep that somewhere else. Meagan: Yes. Dr. Natalie: Oh gosh. So yeah, I did definitely meet with some criticisms as I said. Just that general not understanding of the importance of birth and this incredulity of the ridiculousness of the things that I was asking for. And then there was the stuff you would expect like the actual medical concerns that the other people might have like, is this a danger to the woman? Does it increase her infection rate? Is it a danger to the baby? The baby might get too cold and the pediatricians can't get access to the baby quickly. There were those sorts of concerns actually coming from a genuine place of still wanting to do the absolute very best for our families but of course, there is an answer to all of those questions. And then there were the people who I'm not sure what their motivation is. Maybe it was a threat to them. Perhaps other providers have always done things a certain way, so anytime you're wanting to change a procedure, number one you've got to realize why it's important to change the procedure. So with a Cesarean for example, we've been doing a fairly stock-standard way of doing this Cesarean for who knows how long. Certainly, for as long as I've been training, it's always been done a certain way and possibly I imagine, it's been done pretty much in the same way for many decades, so why would I change something that I can't see a problem with? In most providers' eyes, there's no problem with this. There's no danger in this. There's nothing going wrong apart from all of the things we know certainly can be a danger and can go wrong, but we accept those risks. But why would I change and certainly why would I change into a direction that might become more complicated, especially more complicated for me as the provider having to change the whole way I do things? Because let's be honest, we're people. We might not really like change especially if we've been doing something the same way for a really long period of time. So I definitely also got this pushback from maybe the people who felt challenged by that and who came back to me with even some threats. I don't even know. It was sort of ridiculous and if you weren't in a really serious board meeting, I would have laughed at these people who were coming to me claiming wildly with no evidence behind it things like, “You're going to kill women doing this.” What? What? Where is that coming from? And then the other really one that did actually make me laugh out loud, I certainly got one threat if you like or they thought it was a threat. They said, “But once you do it once, that woman is going to tell her friends and she's going to put it on her Facebook and you're going to get other people asking for this.” I went, “But that's the point.” That is why I want to do it. Meagan: You want to make this change. That is what we are doing. Dr. Natalie: So yeah, I thought that was funny, but that's definitely not where they were coming from with that. Anyway, that is what happened so they were right. Meagan: They were totally right. Here we are. All of us are totally in here loving it and wanting to talk to you about it because you are willing to. Like we were saying earlier, it's sad to know that so many people are so closed-minded. “Oh, well if you do this, then it's going to get it.” It's like, well yeah. We're not doing this as a secret. I'm not going through all of this to keep it a secret. We want to make this change. We want to make Cesarean birth better. My slogan is “Make Birth After Cesarean Better”, but to be really honest, sometimes our VBACs don't end up going exactly as planned, or maybe we decide in the end that we want a scheduled Cesarean, so let's have a healing experience, a beautiful experience and let's incorporate these moms as you are doing because it's truly going to make a difference. I don't know how many of these you have done, but I would be so curious to start learning what it does for the postpartum period, where it's taking us in postpartum, and how we are viewing these births. So many of these people that I talk to, and you can only imagine, have had very traumatic Cesareans, very terrible experiences, ones that they truly have to process and work through before they can even fall pregnant again. It makes me wonder with this even if it is a Cesarean and even if it wasn't desired, in what ways would it change our view? Have you had a lot of people talking about their experience of how they are viewing this? What are your patients saying?Dr. Natalie: I would really love to be able to do, if I had time in the world, to do an in-depth study basically of what the feedback was from all of the families that so far have had this procedure, this maternal or paternal or whatever you want to call it assisted Cesarean. Certainly, one thing I know for a fact is that I definitely have never had anybody come back to me after they have done this and complained or actually had any concerns. I have not had anybody ever come back saying, “Oh, yeah. Well, maybe next time I won't do that” or “I wish I hadn't done that.” Nobody has ever said that. It has definitely always been a really positive experience for them. Some families and mothers are only having their first baby and doing it this way, so perhaps they don't have anything to compare it to but that doesn't matter. What they know from this experience has been that it was really empowering for them and that it achieved a lot of the things that they would be imagining from a vaginal birth anyway. And then I've had all the way up to somebody having her fifth Cesarean and her four previous Cesareans had been with other providers and had not been any kind of maternal-assisted Cesarean. In particular, her fourth Cesarean before she came to me was a really difficult, traumatic experience for her because of things that happened at that time. This was an unplanned pregnancy, so this wasn't meant to happen in the first place, but happy about it and accepting it for sure. She was acknowledging that certainly she was going to have a fifth Cesarean. So she came to me and we performed this maternal-assisted Cesarean. We had spent an extensive period of time talking about what all of the very specific things that had been difficult for her in her previous Cesareans and how we could overcome that and what we could do differently this time around. She has this fifth Cesarean which she then says is so dramatically different from all of the other experiences that she had and so healing for her that she could now say in retrospect she hadn't even processed perhaps how difficult the other Cesareans had been until she had this experience where she could now see the difference. She's like, “Now, I can actually rest happy that this was my final baby now. The fifth one, we're done. We're taking permanent measures.” But this then was so healing for her that she can rest on the knowledge that this is her lasting impression of what birth is now, that it was this rather than the previous one in particular that had actually been really, really difficult. She had the insight to say that even the postpartum bonding period with her baby was so impacted by the difference in her Cesarean experiences that yes, she knew this baby from the very beginning. She got to be the first person to put hands on her baby. She got to have that immediate skin-to-skin with her baby and that uninterrupted bonding time. It often takes the women by surprise, perhaps they haven't thought about these details but they often will say things like, “Whoa. This baby's warm and slippery and wet.” I'm like, “Yes, of course, it is warm and slippery and wet. I don't know what you were imagining otherwise.” But that hadn't been their experience before because previously, the first way that they had experienced their baby was only after the providers had dried off the baby and wrapped it up in a blanket and maybe now given it to them, so they've only got the view of this little face and all they've gotten is “I can touch your cheek” kind of deal. So yeah, it has taken them by surprise that it turns out when you first lay hands on your baby, it's warm and wet and slippery. Meagan: It's kind of crazy though. I had the same thought. With my VBAC, I pulled him up from my vagina and pulled him onto my chest and he was. I was like, “Am I going to drop him because he's so slippery?” Before, I was strapped to the table and didn't really get that. So it is. It's such a different feeling and you wouldn't think about those little details being dramatic, but they are going to leave an impression. So how can we as listeners and people who are going for a VBAC, or maybe just a scheduled Cesarean, maybe going for a VBAC which ends in Cesarean, are there any tips you can give, or is there anything that we can start doing, especially if the hospital is not doing what yours is doing, to try and get this going like your patient did? If any providers are out there listening, do you have any tips for anybody?Dr. Natalie: I think it definitely can be achievable to make a change in the space of your own pregnancy, but perhaps start that early. So perhaps if you knew that a Cesarean was the way that you were going to go, start that conversation early with your care provider to say, “Okay, well if it's a Cesarean, can we make it look like this?” Perhaps it's not necessarily going to be to that extent of the maternal-assisted Cesarean because that does take all sorts of hoops to jump through and it will take time. I was incredibly– I don't know if luck is the right word, but in a privileged position to make those changes in the space of only a few months in my hospital to introduce this new policy and to be able to achieve it for that one woman who had asked for it. But I know that for a lot of hospital workers trying to change policy usually takes much, much, much longer than that. But it's got to start somewhere. So if you as a mother are wanting to make that change, it is possible, but if it's not going to work in your pregnancy journey, you could still be a voice for future mothers if you start the process at some point. It's got to start somewhere. The really easy first start is to start talking to your care provider. Just say, “This is what I want it to look like in whichever way it may be a maternal-assisted Cesarean, or let's lower the curtain down so I can see the baby emerging from my uterus.” Perhaps because I think a lot of care providers are going to take the easy way out and say, “No, you can't do that because we don't do that here.”The next step in that conversation to ask gently is, “Why can't we do that?” I say gently and I don't mean that you should be pleading or begging, but confrontation often doesn't achieve what you want it to achieve, so just have an actual, sensible conversation with your care provider. So if they come back and they say, “No, you can't do that,” then perhaps you can say, “Why can't we do that?” to actually find out what the legitimate reasons are if there is a legitimate reason because if the answer is, “Well, we don't have a policy for that,” then you can ask the next one.Meagan: How do we create one?Dr. Natalie: Exactly. How do we go about creating a policy? If the answer is something like, “My belief is that it's going to increase maternal infection,” then you can come back and say, “Is there evidence for that? Can you show me the evidence for that?” because I actually don't believe that there is any evidence for that. Whatsoever the answer might be, just keep the conversation rolling so that hopefully at some point, there might be this little click in the care provider's mind that says, “Oh, well maybe you're right. Maybe this is a legitimate question to ask and possibly I could maybe even be that change in this woman's life.” Maybe again, perhaps not. Maybe that care provider is still just not going to be open to change and not willing to make that personal effort that it takes, so if you're in the position of having different care providers or you have the ability to request a different care provider, then go to the next person and ask the same question. Maybe again, this is not perhaps going to achieve it in your pregnancy journey so to speak, but if then I as a care provider have multiple people coming to ask me the same thing, I would think that at some point, there's going to be a realization where I say, “Huh.”Meagan: This is desired. This is desired.Dr. Natalie: Exactly. Because if there is that desire, then maybe it is worthwhile actually making that effort to make a change. If I also believe this because I think it does take this understanding on the care provider's behalf to have that insight to say, “Actually, this is an important thing to do for our women and their families.” It takes an open mind for that, so maybe you're not going to get that with the first care provider, but ask for another one and just keep going. Meagan: And just keep going. Yeah, because the more that it is asked like you said, the more it's going to be in our heads as a provider and then maybe a provider one day is going to say, “Okay. Let's look into this.” Dr. Natalie: Yeah. You can always ask to go up that chain of command so to speak as well. If the obstetricians themselves are perhaps not able to change, then you can ask that question of, “Can I get the contact details of who the clinical director would be?” or perhaps what the titles are of the people in the hospital who are in charge of making that change. So just go up the pipeline. You can do that as a consumer. You can directly approach the director or in my case at the private hospital, the CEO. Just write them an email. Don't knock on their door, but gently ask in an email, “Perhaps is this something that we can work on?” And it is happening. All of those countries that I've said have come back to me and said, “We were able to achieve this for the first time in our country,” a lot of the time, that started with the patient herself asking her care provider and then hopefully meeting a care provider who is amendable to that challenge and who will take up with that in themselves. They're going to be more powerful going up that pipeline to make change happen. It's possible. It is possible. It is happening. Meagan: It is. It is happening. Your page has all of the proof. Dr. Natalie: Yeah. They're not fake videos. I don't have time for that. Meagan: Fake videos, I know. Like I said, it just makes me sad that people would even question that they are fake. Okay, we've talked about your journey of how this happened and now this is how we as consumers– I love how you said that we are consumers. We are really in a place where we can implement this. We can get things going and that's simply just by putting the idea in a provider's mind. I love that so much. You recently posted an introduction of yourself and something that stood out to me is in your post, you talked about, “What if we do nothing? What if we change the care and stop intervening and do nothing?” Then you prefaced it with, “I don't mean literally doing nothing, but I'm meaning continuously supporting, loving, educating, and empowering.” It really resonates with me. I love that so much. I love your words in that post. In fact, we will link it in the show notes so everyone can find it really easily. It's just beautiful and I love what you're doing. I really love it so much. I can't even tell you how grateful I am. Like you said, we are a VBAC podcast. I am doing these Cesarean episodes. Yes. I would like to see the Cesarean rates go down substantially. That is a huge goal of mine in my personal life. I would love to see Cesarean birth percentages going down, but at the same time, I do understand that they are needed. They are desired and there is that to be said. One of the questions I was going to ask you before I let you go is a lot of these videos look very calm and very planned. Sometimes Cesareans aren't calm or planned. Are there restrictions there, pre-restrictions that have to come into play before a maternal-assisted Cesarean delivery could happen? Dr. Natalie: Yeah. One thing I always definitely want to say because I've had this crisis myself as well going, “Am I getting known as a Cesarean doctor?” I don't want to. Meagan: I can see that. Dr. Natalie: I don't want to be that. I certainly don't want to become that person who then only does Cesareans and maternal-assisted Cesareans, but if a Cesarean is the right choice for the woman in her situation, then yes. Let's make it the best possible version of a Cesarean that it can be. That's the internal catchphrase that I say. Let's make every birth the best possible version of that birth that it can be. Whether or not that's a vaginal birth or whether or not that's a Cesarean or whether or not that's anything, a forceps, let's make it the best possible forceps that it can be. Okay, that's not on the top of the list of whatever you want to plan for, but if it's going to be that, then let's make it the best possible version of that that we can be. So yes. In a Cesarean situation, how can we make that calm– I mean not even calm, right? It's about that connection. It's about the instant connection of the mother and her baby, so how can we try to achieve that where she can be this integral part of her own birth rather than it being that she is a patient having an operation? It's about changing that viewpoint. I think that there are then so many little elements of that that we can achieve that even if it's not necessarily straight up to the maternal-assisted part, that there are so many other steps that can be important that we can do without necessarily having her scrubbed and putting gloves on and putting her hands in her belly. Let's lower the curtain. Let's do direct skin-to-skin. Let's do delayed cord clamping. Let's not take the baby away from the mother. All of those things can still be achieved as well perhaps even and mostly still very achievable in an emergency Cesarean situation. We use the word emergency Cesarean a little bit willy-nilly because it's not often an actual emergency. Meagan: Yes. I love that you pointed that out. But sometimes when we use that emergency word, it triggers people and they think that it was a life-saving thing, so I love that you said that. We have a lot of people say, “Oh, we had an emergency C-section.” I'm like, “Oh, what was the reason for your C-section?” “I didn't dilate past a 3 for a few hours, so we walked down to the OR.” That wasn't an emergency C-section. Dr. Natalie: I think in our hospital, and I know most other hospitals in Australia have a very similar classification system, but we either call it an elective Cesarean meaning that it's planned and booked well in advance, or if it's an unplanned Cesarean, it gets called an emergency Cesarean. But we have then six different categories of how we classify how urgent that emergency Cesarean is, but they all then come under the banner of an emergency Cesarean. A category 5 is that it just needs to be done within the next 24 hours. It's still called an emergency Cesarean, but clearly, if we're happy to wait 23 and a half hours, it's clearly not that urgent. But it still gets called an emergency C-section. Yeah. There's a very wide degree of how urgent an emergency Cesarean might be. So yes. At my hospital where I am able to do maternal-assisted Cesareans because I'm not at all of the hospitals that I work at, but at the one where I am able to do it at, at the moment, our policy is written in such a way that it is only for these planned, elective Cesareans. That's got to do with a whole range of factors. It's got to do with me being able to prepare the woman and her family ahead of time to know what this is going to look like. We go through all of those nuances of how she is, for example, going to become sterile because it is still an operation, so we do need to actually play by those rules to make sure that it is safe. I often get questions or comments on my maternal-assisted Cesarean videos saying, “Oh, isn't it a shame that she's got gloves on? If it was truly a bonding experience, she would touch her baby without gloves.” I go, “Yes, absolutely. That would be really, really nice.” Of course, it would be preferable to be able to grab her baby with her bare hands, but we have to keep in mind that this is still actually an operation, so from that perspective of we need to keep it safe for her, yes. She needs to have gloves on. I can't see a way around that at this point in time. Once the baby is out of her, once the baby is on her chest, once the baby is not in that sterile field so to speak, then of course, take the gloves off. She can touch her baby straightaway. That's what you'll see in those videos is that I often then lower her gown down so that she can put her baby directly onto her skin, onto her chest and then I'd be very happy for her to take her gloves off. They often just don't in that instant because they are holding their baby and they don't want to move from that moment. Part of the reason why it's currently only getting performed in an elective Cesarean situation is that pre-preparation where I've told her all of these rules of maintaining sterility so that she doesn't inadvertently break any of those rules. She has to follow the same rules that I as the operating surgeon have to. We go through the same handwashing process. There is a little technique to putting on the gowns and the gloves and whatnot. Meagan: Yep. I've seen it. Dr. Natalie: Yeah, you'll see it. Hands up in the air. Meagan: They get their hands up in the air and everything goes on. The gloves go on. Yeah. Dr. Natalie: Exactly. She can't then touch anything after that point that's not sterile. It's all of that pre-preparation and it's the pre-preparation of what it is going to look like and what it's going to feel like for her to put her hands on that wet, warm, slippery baby and to be able to lift it out of her. I get that if she starts to lift and she's like, “I can't do it. It's stuck.” You have to be reasonably firm because I try to make hopefully only a small enough hole that you can get the baby out, but it's not hip to hip so it's a little bit of a squeeze. But yep, pop it out. Meagan: That was a question I wanted to ask you. Since you've been doing this, have you seen any special scar situations with a mother assisting meaning any extensions, J's, or anything like that?Dr. Natalie: No, I haven't. I really haven't. Again, that's a question that we get. I get the question from people. I think this comes from their previous expectations of what they're being told perhaps in previous Cesareans that isn't it going to damage her abdominal muscles if she sits up like that? If she's reaching and grabbing? She's lifting her head up. People have told me before that in their previous Cesareans, they've been very much guided to not lift their heads up. In fact, I've had people tell me from other countries in particular that not only were their arms strapped down to the table but their head was strapped to the table as well. Meagan: I've heard that as well. Dr. Natalie: So they can't move their head and they have a system where they have to lie down flat for six hours after a Cesarean so that they still can't lift their head up or sit up for hours after the Cesarean because of this idea of things like a spinal puncture headache. I don't even know what those rules are because they don't make any sense to me. But if that's what people's experiences have been, then, of course, that's why they are questioning the validity or the safety when they see then what I'm doing that they themselves might think that this is dangerous. But no, there's no abdominal muscle trauma in excess of what a Cesarean does anyway. No, there's no risk to women of lifting their heads up off of the table. There's no risk to women of bending so to speak and lifting their baby up at the same time as a Cesarean. Yes, it can be a little bit more difficult because of course, they are anesthetized, but we are there still. She is not going to drop this baby. I'm still very much within catching range, supporting range and you might see on some of these that yes, I do still give her that helping hand to pop its bottom out, but once she's got that baby, you can just then watch their faces. You watch those videos and sometimes blur out the rest of the stuff that's going on, and just watch her face. It's really powerful to watch her have this, first of all, maybe this anxiety that's building. That would be an obvious response. Here she is lying down for this operation and then we lower those curtains and there's this wonderment of what this is going to be and then she touches her baby, and then she lifts it up. There's that moment of pure joy on her face every single time. Often, you'll see the tears that come with that too. It's just powerful. That's what birth should be like every single time. Just because it's now in an operating theater, that doesn't mean that we can't achieve all of those same things. Meagan: Right, yeah. Dr. Natalie: We might as well stop after that, right? Meagan: I love that. I love that. One day, I'm thinking, okay. I totally get that. You have to pre-prep and talk about this in a planned situation. I hope that maybe one day the conversation can be had in prenatal appointments where it's like, “Hey if you don't have a vaginal birth or if you don't have a VBAC or are a first-time mom, there are these options. Here, sign this form if you would like to be educated on this, and let's educate. Assuming it's all calm and it's not a true emergent baby out in seconds, but a very calm decision where everyone is making their way to the OR, maybe we can start implementing it there too because I do know for sure it would be so healing in so many ways for all of these moms that maybe wanted a VBAC and didn't have their VBAC.”Dr. Natalie: For sure. I think that's so true. I am definitely like that where I'm constantly pushing the boundaries at my hospital. That's where I next want to take it because as I said in my policy, it's written that this can only be performed on elective C-sections and I wrote that policy. That's a shame. If I could go back, I would take that out. I mean, it's got to be that way to start off with because we did want to do this in a really controlled way because we were introducing a new technique, but now that we've seen it and all of the reasons that we believed we would need all of this extra time to be able to plan for this, now that we've done enough of them that we're all practiced and experienced at them, it literally maybe takes an extra five minutes to the time of the operation just to get it ready.So there's no particular reason that I can see that we then couldn't achieve that same sort of thing for the vast majority of unplanned Cesareans as well. That would be a game changer because obviously, the unplanned Cesarean is in particular where the woman might come out traumatized at the other end if she's not getting what she was aiming for. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Natalie: Wouldn't that be powerful if we could still make it then the best possible version of the emergency Cesarean that we could do?Meagan: Absolutely. Well, I want to be conscious of your time. I know that you've been up all night for multiple nights on call doing the amazing things you do. I would love to leave with– since it is a VBAC podcast, is there anything that you would like to share about VBAC or anything cool that you've seen or anything that you've been implementing with VBAC or any tips or anything as a provider who is making a change in birth in general? I do want to focus on that. I don't personally see you as the Cesarean birth provider. Dr. Natalie: Great. Meagan: That's one of the reasons why I just think that you are amazing. I do think that is an amazing thing that you have done because you have started something that is really tricky. It's a really tricky thing and you've started it. That's where we start making changes just to start but I see all of your other posts too. I see all of your beautiful, amazing posts. I mean, I'm pretty sure you just shared a home birth after a Cesarean video. Dr. Natalie: The HBAC, right?Meagan: Yes, the HBAC. A lot of providers even in a hospital setting would be like, “Nope. Big no-no. That is terrible,” and you're still out there sharing it. You're still out there educating. Is there anything else you'd like to share for VBAC?Dr. Natalie: Yeah. I think that's right. I definitely am still very, very much in support of basically every woman being able to be empowered and informed to make the best possible choices for her in the situation that she's facing because whilst yes, aiming for a VBAC is a really lofty goal, sometimes that isn't going to be the best possible choice for her in whatever situation for whatever reason that might be. So yeah, number one is always having enough information being given to you or that you're finding out yourself that you are equipped to make a decision and probably multiple decisions that feel right for you. That's difficult sometimes, I think, to know where to go for that information, so thank goodness for places like The VBAC Link that can actually give you appropriate medical advice, research, and the studies and the actual, accurate information so that it's not just fear-based information that's getting thrown your way. Meagan: Yes. Dr. Natalie: And then it's about always advocating for yourself which is unfortunate that it has to become that way, but the hospital system, in particular, is a fear-driven,  litigation, consent place so you're often not necessarily going to get that unbiased opinion on what your choices are. You probably are going to have to go to external places to get that information, but then you just have to be really careful about where you're going for that information. Trust your sources. Also, my other tip is always going to be about looking at that whole birth mapping thing. So, okay yes. We are going to aim for a VBAC. For example, that might be your choice, but what if X happens? Then what's going to be my choice in that situation? If Y happens, then where am I going to diverge now and what's going to be my choice in that situation? We know that a lot of birth trauma comes from a situation that wasn't prepared for. The woman comes back at the other side and says, “Well, I just didn't consider that that could have happened to me,” so the unexpected or unplanned thing that happened is perhaps where a lot of birth trauma can come from. Having that fine line between considering all possibilities but not needing to dwell on those scary ones. There are fear-based ones, but knowing what if you then need a hospital transfer? What if you need a Cesarean? What are your choices going to be in that situation? So that you can continue to make it the best possible version of that now that you can possibly make it. Meagan: Yeah. I love that. It's something that a lot of our followers will say when they had their initial Cesarean. “It was traumatic because it wasn't even in my mind. It wasn't even a thought that that was a possibility” or “I was so focused on this birth plan, this one route that I wanted to go and then it did diverge and it diverged completely over here and it threw me for a loop and now I'm processing.” I love that just in general for anyone going in to have a baby. Even with a planned Cesarean, we want to have an open mind because birth takes weird turns sometimes. Having an open mind and having all of your ducks in a row and having the education because you may not ever get there, but if it's there, it's going to help you if it comes. So I love that. I love that tip. Thank you. Dr. Natalie: Yeah. Meagan: Okay, well thank you so much for sharing how you have got this implemented and how it started, and how we as people can try to implement it in our lives and in our cities, states, and countries because we have people listening from all over the world. I love hearing that it is slowly creeping out there and having it put in place. Thank you for all that you do, for your hard work, and for your support in all types of birth that you support. I really do. I just appreciate your time so much. Dr. Natalie: You are very, very welcome. I am always keen and passionate to of course continue to advocate for change wherever we can. I'll always give a little shoutout and say if you are a pregnant woman or a provider considering this as a change and you need a place to start, you can very much reach out to me via Instagram. You can send me a DM and I can email you information like the policy and some information that I've generated that may be able to help you along in your journey as well. I'm very open to that. Meagan: Awesome. Thank you so much. Dr. Natalie: You're welcome. Thanks, guys. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.  Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

About NatalieI'm interested in solving human problems through technology (she/her). Share your screen (or I'll share mine) and we'll figure this out!Links: Netlify: https://www.netlify.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/codeFreedomRitr TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Sysdig. Sysdig is the solution for securing DevOps. They have a blog post that went up recently about how an insecure AWS Lambda function could be used as a pivot point to get access into your environment. They've also gone deep in-depth with a bunch of other approaches to how DevOps and security are inextricably linked. To learn more, visit sysdig.com and tell them I sent you. That's S-Y-S-D-I-G dot com. My thanks to them for their continued support of this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key or a shared admin account isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And no, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A recurring theme of this show has been where does the next generation of cloud engineer come from because of the road that a lot of us walked is closed, and a lot of the jobs that some of us took no longer exist in any meaningful form. There are a bunch of answers around oh, we're going to get people right out of school from computer science programs into this space, but that doesn't always solve some of the answers. Here to talk to me today is someone who took a different path. Natalie Davis is a software engineer at Netlify, and she entered tech by changing careers from another industry. Natalie, how are you? Thank you for joining me.Natalie: I'm really good, Corey. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here and kind of share my experiences.Corey: So, you have entered tech within the last few years. You went to a boot camp, you spent a year as an engineer at a different company, and now you're at Netlify, one of those companies that, at least for some of us was one of those things you vaguely hear about in the background, sort of a buzz, and the buzz gets louder and louder and louder, and no seems that every time I turn around, I'm tripping over Netlify. In good ways, to be clear.Natalie: I mean, that's definitely good news for me. [laugh]. Yeah, Netlify is a company I first grew familiar with while I was in boot camp. It was the first place I ever hosted a website, a nice little to-do app. And now a couple of years later, here I am, in the guts of it.Corey: So, what were you doing before you decided, “You know what? I'm going to enter tech.” Because if you stand back and you look at it, like that seems like a great culture with no problems whatsoever inherent to it in any way, shape, or form. That's where I want to be. Honestly, I find myself in tech these days, in spite of a lot of things rather than because of it. But again, I am cynical, jaded, again, old and grumpy because you don't get to be a Unix sysadmin without being old and grumpy by somewhere around week three.Natalie: So, that's something I actually find very interesting. Because I came to tech after having existed in another industry—and I'll talk about that in a moment—for about 15 years, I don't find tech as toxic as people who have always been in tech find it. There are problems in tech, but we're talking about those problems; we're trying to come up with solutions. Whereas in retail, where I spent the first 15 years of my career, no one's talking about those problems. And they exist, and they exist on an amplified level because not only are people being treated horribly, not only are people consistently being profiled and discriminated against, but they're doing it for $10 an hour, so there's not even the incentive of at least I get to live well. So, I always push back just a little bit on that, tech is so toxic.Corey: That is a fantastic approach. I hadn't considered it from that perspective. I mean, I sit here in something of an ivory tower. My clients tend to be big companies doing things in a B2B level, whether I'm talking about media sponsorships or consulting projects. The one time a year that I deal with the quote-unquote, “General public,” or a B2C type of thing is my annual charity t-shirt fundraiser.And I have remarked before on this show that those $35 t-shirts cause more customer service headaches for me than the entire rest of the year put together because you sell someone $100,000 consulting project, and you're responsible adults, and you can have conversations and figure out how to move forward, but when someone spends $35 on a shirt—for charity, I will point out—and it doesn't show up, or it's the wrong size or something, they have opinions, and they will in some cases put you on blast. But even in that sense, it's not the quote-unquote, “General public,” it's people in this industry, by and large, who are themselves working professionals, not people walking into a retail store and deciding the best way to get what they want is to basically abuse the staff.Natalie: Yeah, yeah. I noticed that even within retail. I spent most of my retail career in better or luxury retail, but there was one year that I worked in an outlet—and I won't name them—but that was the worst experience of my life. People calling corporate on me over 40 cent discounts. It was just unbelievable. [laugh].Corey: It's a different era, so coming from that, you look at tech and your perspective then is that you see that it has challenges in it, but it's, “Oh, compared to what I used to deal with, this is nothing.”Natalie: Correct. Although I did know that there were challenges in tech, but I viewed it more from a standpoint of how tech was impacting communities like mine. And that was part of what drew me to tech because obviously, there weren't enough people like me in the room, and that meant that there was room for someone like me to enter the room and shake some tables. So, that was part of why I wanted to come to tech.Corey: This is evocative of other conversations I've had, generally with people in the midst of an outage, where everyone's running around with their hair on fire because the computers aren't working, and there's one person sitting there who's just, you would think it is any random Tuesday, and at people ask them, “How on earth are you so calm?” And their answer is, “Oh, I'm a veteran. No one's shooting at me. The computers don't work. I know everyone here is going to go home to their families tonight. This isn't stress. You haven't seen stress.”I have seen shades of that from folks who have transitioned into this industry from, honestly, industries that treat people far worse. So, that's an area I haven't considered. I'd like the direction, I like the angle you have on this. This is sort of a strange follow-up to that, but what inspired you to enter tech from retail? I mean, the easy answer is you look around, you're like, “Okay, I've had enough of this, I'm going to go learn how tech works.” It's never that easy.Natalie: Yeah, it definitely wasn't that easy. So, I married a wonderful man who is a firefighter. My brother-in-law works with non-traditional students at the high school age, his wife is a nurse. So, I'm surrounded by these people who actually have careers, who actually are doing things that they're passionate about. And that wasn't a part of my life before marrying into this family.So, it kind of woke something up in me like, hey, I don't just have to work for a living; I can work for a passion. And no, no one dreams of labor, sure. Like, one day, I'll win the lotto and I won't have to do anything except be a professional student, which would be my ideal path, but it did awaken the possibility that even people in my life can go have these passions. So, then I started thinking, “Well, what can I do aside from retail, without incurring another $100,000 worth of college debt?” And then I started—I jumped on Twitter. Following tech accounts now, and—Corey: Oh, geez, you are a glutton for punishment. It's one of those, “All right. So, I don't think the industry is that bad. I'm going to prove it by going on Twitter.” Okay, let's scrap it on that one.Natalie: But around this time was the time where there was an article about automatic hand dryers and how they weren't recognizing black hands as hands. And I think maybe there was something about an automated self-driving car—that's what I'm looking for—that wasn't recognizing black people as people in the same way that it was recognizing others. And I've always been a fighter. I've always been a rebel. You might not be able to tell it now I seem to have grown up quite a bit, and you know, I'm more conservative with the way I respond to the issues that I see in the world.If I'm going to pursue my passion, it needs to be me fighting for something that's important to me. Tech, okay, cool. Then there's this thing about tech where, sure you can go the CS degree route, and I think that's a great route. I don't think it's the right route for everybody. There's almost like this Wild West aspect where if you can build, that's it. If you can do the job, you can do the job.And I didn't think that it was going to be easy, but I know I've got grit, I know, I've got determination. I know if I set my mind to a thing, I can do a thing. And I liked that you could come in and just be able to do the work, and that would be enough. So, I jumped in a boot camp.Corey: Would you recommend boot camps as a way for people to break into tech? The reason I asked i—I'm not talking about any particular boot camp here—Natalie: Sure.Corey: —but I'm interested in what is the common guidance for folks who find themselves in similar situations and decide that, “You know what? I think that I want to go deal with tech because tech does have its problems, but people aren't literally spitting on you, most days, or throwing drinks at you and, let's be very direct because there's a taboo against talking about this sometimes the pay is a lot better in tech than it is in most other industries.” And we all like to—Natalie: Oh yeah.Corey: —dance around the fact that, “Oh, compensation. No, no, no. You should do it because you love it.” It's, yeah, being able to do what you love is one of those privileges that comes along with having money and making money doing the thing that you love. If the thing that you love is getting screamed at on Black Friday by hordes of people, great. You're still going to not necessarily be able to afford the same trappings of a life that you can by having something that compensates better.Natalie: Thank you for bringing that up because I certainly should have mentioned that the pay was attractive to me in the industry as well. Like, I thought only doctors and lawyers made six figures or better. I didn't realize I could get there.Corey: I've always had the baseline assumption that everyone is in tech to some degree for the money. Whenever I meet someone who's like, “No, I'm in tech and I'm not doing it for the money.” I like to follow up with that because sometimes they're right. “Really? So, what do you do?” Like, “Oh, yeah, I work for this nonprofit doing tech stuff.” “Okay. I believe you when you say that.” When I work for one of the FAANG big tech companies, and people are, “Oh, yeah, I'm here because I love the work.” [pause] “Really? Like, you're out there making the world a better place by improving ad conversion rates? Okay.”Like, we all tell ourselves lies to get through the day, and I'm also not suggesting by any means that money is a bad motivator for anything. The thing that always irked me is when people don't acknowledge, yeah, part of the reason I'm in this industry is because it pays riches beyond the wildest dreams of avarice that I had growing up. I never expected to find myself in a situation where I'm making, as you say, lawyer and doctor money. Honestly, I look around and I'm still astounded that the things that I do on computers—badly, may I point out—is valued by anyone. Yet, here we are.Natalie: I wholeheartedly agree. Every time that direct deposit hits my account, my mind is just blown. Like, “You all know I was just putzing around on my computer all week, right? And like, this is what I get? Cool. Cool.” But to get back to your question is, boot camp—I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly how you phrased it.Corey: No, no, the question I really have is, is boot camp the common case recommendation now for folks who want to break in? Are there better slash alternate paths—if you had to do it all again—that you might have pursued?Natalie: I have to say, people reach out to me for advice: How did you do what you did, they never liked what I have to say because I'm going to start with, you have to understand who you are. You have to understand what works for you. I know that I'm incredibly capable, and I learn quite well, but I need structure in order to do so because if you leave me to my own devices, I will get lost in the weeds of something that does not matter much, but it's quite interesting. And now I've spent a month learning about event handlers, but I don't know how to do anything else. So, for me, boot camp provided both the structure and the baked-in community that I need it because no one in my life is in tech; no one can talk to me about these things. I needed a group of people who I could share the struggle that learning to code is. Because my God, that was a struggle. I've done a lot of hard things in my life, and I don't think many of them had me doubting my abilities the way learning to code did.Corey: There's always that constant ebb and flow of it, where you—it's a rush, like, “I am a genius,” and then something doesn't work it, “Oh, I'm a fool. Why didn't anyone bother to tell me this at any point in my life?” And it's the constant, almost swing between highs and lows on a constant basis. There's a support group for that in tech, it's called everyone, and we made it the bar.Natalie: [laugh]. Yeah, I haven't stopped experiencing that since I've gotten—although I've gotten much better with dealing with the emotions that come along with that.Corey: Yes, sometimes I find going for a walk and calming down helps because if I keep staring at this thing, I'm going to say something unfortunate, possibly on Twitter, and no one wants that.Natalie: Well, I kind of want it. It's fun to watch. [laugh].Corey: Yeah, but it's tied to my name, and that's the challenge.Natalie: Ah, yes, yes. So yeah, I mean, there are people out there who have gone the self-taught route, and oh, my goodness, those people are so inspiring and amazing to me because I don't think I could have pulled it off that way. I think something else you have to think about is the support system you have. I don't know that I would have been able to dedicate myself the way I did in boot camp if I didn't have my husband, who was able to kind of shoulder the financial burden on our family, while I was just living in this office for 14 hours a day. And that's unfortunate, and I think that's something that I hope gets addressed by someone. I don't know who; I don't have the solution.But yeah, it took a certain level of privilege for me to pour myself in the way that I did. So, that's something that you have to think about, what kind of time do you have to dedicate? Now, when you're thinking about that, also understand that it's a marathon, not a race, right? It doesn't matter if Billy did it in a year, if it takes you five years to get there, that's how long it took you to get there. But once you're there, you're there.Corey: There are certain one-way doors that people pass through. Another common one that we see a lot of in the industry is the idea of going from engineer to management. Once you have crossed through that door and become a manager, you can go back to being an engineer and then back to being a manager, but crossing into the management realm the first time is one of those things that is not clearly defined in many places. And every time you talk to somebody like, “How do you break that barrier?” And the answer is, “Oh. I was in the right place at the right time, and I got lucky,” is generally the common answer to it.I keep looking for ways to systematically get there, and that was interesting to me because I wanted to be a manager very much back in the first part of the 2010s. And I put myself in weird roles chasing that, and I think I wanted to do it for the right reasons, namely, to inspire and to be the manager I wished I'd always had. And it turns out I was really bad at it on a variety of different levels. And okay, this is not for me. I decided to go in a bit of a different direction, even now, the entire company rolls up the reporting chain that does not include me. I have a business partner who handles that. No one has to report to me on a weekly basis, which is really something we should put on our careers page as a benefit to help attract people.Natalie: [laugh]. Absolutely. I mean, I'm thinking about that, and like, what does my next five years look like? Do I want to go into management role? I've got a ton of leadership experience in retail.It's not a direct translation, but of course, there are some transferable skills there. But also, it is beautiful to be an individual contributor, to not have to follow up with a team of 12 to see where they're at and what they're working on. So, I still haven't decided where I want to go.Corey: When I have the privilege of talking to high-level executives about the hardest part on their journey, very often the story they say is that—especially if they started off in the engineering world, where, “Yeah, I love what I do, my job is great, but…” and then they pause a minute, and, “Back in the before times, it was easier.” [unintelligible 00:16:13] you're like, “Oh, here. Let me buy you eight drinks.” And then they get really honest. And they say the hard part really is that you don't get to do anything yourself.Your only tool to solve all of these problems is delegation. So, you've got to build and manage and maintain and develop the team, and then you have to give them context and basically let them go and hope that they can deliver the thing that you need when you need it delivered. And for a lot of us who are used to working on the computer of, I push the button and the computer does what I say—you know, aspirationally, after you wind up fixing it eight times in a row, only to figure out that comma should have been a semicolon. Great—and then you're, “Oh, yeah. Okay, that makes sense.”It is hard for folks in an engineering sense to often let go and that leads to things like micromanagement, and the failure mode of a boss who shows up and basically winds up writing code and reverting your commits in the middle of the night and they're treating main as their feature branch. And yeah, we've all seen those weird patterns there. It's a hard, hard thing to do. You've been management in a retail role. Do you aspire to manage people in the tech industry as your career in this zany place evolves?Natalie: I just haven't decided, I think in some ways, it makes a lot of sense. I did enjoy mentoring and coaching and helping people level up. That was kind of my specialty. I got a lot of people promoted, and that felt good to see them kind of take off and fly. But I am kind of in love with the, how do I make this thing do what I want it to do.That digging in and the mystery and the following the trail and console logging 6000 different variables, and then finally, finally, finally, it works, and I don't know if I want to give that up. Honestly, the thing that pushed me into management and retail, initially, was I can make a lot more money in management than I can as a sales associate. And with that incentive kind of removed—and sure I can make more money as a manager, but money ceases to be the same kind of motivator once your needs are met. Like, I'm in a good place, I don't have to worry. So, now I have to think about, do I really want to go back to not being able to do the work—because I found it difficult even in retail not to just jump in and make the sale because I know how to make a sale and I can see where you're going wrong. And I've got to let you fail, but then I've lost the sale.So, I don't know that I want to give up the individual contributor role. But I'm very open. I feel like in this stage of my career, anything is possible. I'm just kind of exploring what's out there and seeing where it leads.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance query accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service, although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLAP and OLTP—don't ask me to pronounce those acronyms again—workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time-consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: Very often there's this mistaken belief that, “All right, I've been an engineer, so now I need to be a manager to get promoted.” And they're orthogonal skills. Whenever I looked at management roles, and the requirements are well, there's going to be a coding on the whiteboard component to the interview, it's, “What exactly do you think a manager does here?” Or the, “Oh, yeah. You're going to be half managing the team and half participating in the team's work.” It's great. Those are two jobs. Which one would you rather I fail at?Because let's be very realistic here. There's also a bias, it's linked to ageism, for sure in this industry, but you look at someone who's in their 40s or 50s, or 60s or whatever it happens to be, who's an individual contributor, and you look at them, and there's a lot of people that see that either overtly or subtly think that oh, yeah, they got lost somewhere along the way. They have gone in a different direction, they missed some opportunities. And I don't think that's necessarily fair. I think that it fails to acknowledge exactly what you're talking about, that there's a love and a passion behind some of the things you get to deal with and some things you don't have to deal with when you're working as an engineer versus working as management.From my perspective, I'd argue everyone should at least do a stint in management at some point or another just because I have a lot more empathy for those quote-unquote, “Crappy managers” that I had back in the early part of my career, now that I've been on the other side of that table. It's like, I used to be like, “Why would that person fire me?” And now looking at it from that perspective, it's, “Why did that person wait three whole months to fire me?” It's one of those areas where I see it now with the broader context.And it's strange, I've always said I'm a terrible employee, but I would be a much better one now as a result. So, I learned the lesson just in time for it to be completely useless to me, personally, but if I can pass that on to people, that's why I have a microphone.Natalie: Absolutely, yeah. There's a lot of tension, especially when you're kind of middle-level management because you're trying to make your people happy, but then you've got these demands coming from the top, and they don't want what your people want at all. And that's difficult.Corey: That was my failure when I would—I failed to manage up completely. I was obstinate as an employee and got myself fired a lot and figured as a manager, I'm going to do exactly the same thing because it'll work great now.Natalie: [laugh].Corey: Yeah, turns out it doesn't work that way at all for anyone.Natalie: But I think there's something else interesting in that perspective in that I came to tech at what is considered a late age. I joined boot camp, I think maybe… I was 38 when I joined boot camp.Corey: Understand, some people say, “I came to tech late—I was 14 years old—compared to some folks.” And it's like this whole, “Oh, if you weren't in the cradle with a keyboard in your hand, you're too late for this.” And that is some bullshit.Natalie: I laughed so much. I want to see more people like me join late because I can tell you, I haven't had the typical boot camp experience. I've been extremely fortunate in that I have had a community that's really supportive of me, but within a week of telling Twitter I was officially looking for work, I had three interviews with three different companies lined up. And that happened because I had previous experience, both in life and in the industry, so I understood how important it was to build my network and what that looked like, and kind of did that consistently throughout the whole time that I was in boot camp. If I had come at the age of 20, or 14, I wouldn't have had those skills that—kind of—made it relatively—not relatively. That's easy. That was an easy journey. I'm still blown away, and I pinch myself almost every day to think about the fairy tale entry I've had into tech.But again, it happened because I came at an older age because I had those life skills. So please, if you're out there and thinking you're too old, you have to stop listening to people who haven't lived enough life to understand how life works. You have to understand who you are, understand what your skills are, and then understand that tech is thirsty for those skills.Corey: I wish that this were a more common approach. At some level, I feel like there are headwinds against people moving into tech later into their career, gatekeeping, and whatnot. And I used to think that it was this, “Oh because, you know, people just want to hire more folks that look like them.” And I'm increasingly realizing that is actually the more benevolent answer; I suspect, there's at least some element as well, where when someone is new to their career, they're in their early-20s, fresh out of school, they are not nearly as cynical, they are not as good at drawing boundaries. So, they'll work for magic equity at a startup that might one day possibly turn into something, earning significantly below market rate salaries, and they'll be putting in 80 hours a week because they're building something.You only do that once or twice in most people's careers before they realize, wait a minute, that's kind of a scam. Or they'll have an exit and the founder buys a yacht and they get enough to buy a used Toyota. And it's, “Hmm. Seems like that was an awful lot of late nights, weekends, a time away from my family that I could have been spending doing more productive things.” And they work out what it is by the hour that I put in, and it's like fractions of a penny by the time they're all done. And it's, “Yeah, that was ill-advised.”Natalie: Yeah.Corey: There's a cynicism that comes to it, where folks who are further along in their career or come into this industry, from other careers as well, have a lot better understanding of the dynamics of interpersonal relationships in the workplace, as well as understanding that when something smells off, it very well might be off. And early in your career, you just think, “Oh, this is just how it is. This is what workplaces must be. Why didn't anyone ever tell me that?” To me at least, that's why mentorship, especially mentorship from people in other companies at times and career growth is just such a critical thing.Because I used to do the exact same thing till someone took me aside and said, “You know, you just did that thing today at 4:45 and your coworker came up with an emergency it has to be pushed out? Yeah. Watch what happens someone does it to me next.” And he did—great. Because I wasn't able to get to it—“Okay, when did you first find out about this? When does it need to get done? Why didn't you mention this earlier because I'm packing up to go home now? Well, I guess it's not going to get done. I will do it tomorrow instead.”And that's not being a jerk; that's drawing boundaries. And that was transformative to me because I used to think that my job was to just do whatever my boss said, regardless of the rest. Like, call my then fiance, “Oh, sorry. I'm not able to be there for dinner tonight because I've got to do this emergency at work.” That's not an emergency. It's really not.Natalie: Yeah.Corey: Basic stuff like that, but it's the thing you only learned by working in the workforce and having a career for a period of time because it's so different than what the public education system is, coming up through it, where it's basically, comply, obey, et cetera. You aren't really going to have much luck drawing boundaries when you don't do your homework at night.Natalie: Absolutely. I mean, two of the things that you just said that I love is, when you come to it after having lived a bit of life, you absolutely are able to suss out certain things, and kind of sense, “Ooh, that's not good, and I don't want to pursue this any longer.” I've been really fortunate not to experience a ton of things that a lot of people experience, regardless of race, gender, age, there are just some parts of tech that—I don't want to say allegedly; that can be toxic because I don't want to invalidate anyone's experience. But because I've lived so much life, and so much of my career was understanding people, that the moment I started to see those signs, I just kind of separated myself from affiliation with that person, or that group, or that entity, and kind of pursued what I knew would work for me.And then mentorship, and especially mentorship outside of your company. I've got great mentors at my company, but I've got at least three mentors who all work at different places who had just—I wouldn't be here without them. They're my place to go when, hey, is this normal? Because I didn't have any experience in the tech industry. And I'd run everything by them.I don't always do what they tell me to do. Sometimes I get their advice, I listen to it, I think about how it might apply in my life, and then I just tuck it in my back pocket and do what I intended to do in the first place.Corey: One of the things people get wrong about mentorship is that it has to be mentee-led, not mentor-led. And again, it's never expected whenever you're asking someone for advice that you're going to do exactly what they say, but if you're going to go to all the trouble of taking someone's time, you should at least consider what they say. And it may not apply; it may be completely wrong. Every once in a while, we rotate through paid advisors at our company where we have people come in for time to advise us, and sometimes some of those valuable advisors we have, we never did a single thing that they tell us to do, but listening to them and how they articulate and how they clear it out. It's, “Okay, we strongly agree with aspects of this, but here's why it is a complete non-starter for us.”And that is valuable, even though from their perspective, “You never take my advice.” And it's not that, like, “Well, we think your advice is garbage.” No, it's well reasoned, and it's nuanced, but it's not quite right because of the following reasons. That's something that I think gets lost on.Natalie: Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. And I think you made a really good point. You have to consider the advice if this is someone whom you've come to ask how you might handle a certain situation, and they take the time to give their insight, you have to consider that. If you don't consider it, why are you wasting everyone's time?Corey: One last question I want to get into before we call this an episode. It is abundantly clear that you are a net add to virtually any team that you find yourself on based upon a variety of things that you've evinced during this episode. Why did you choose to work at Netlify? And let's be clear, that is not casting shade at Netlify.Natalie: [laugh].Corey: Like, “You can work anywhere. Why are you at that crap hole?” No, I have a bunch of friends that Netlify and every story I have heard about that company has been positive. So, great. Why are you there?Natalie: For me, it's always going to start with people. I was happy at Foxtrot, my first employer. I was growing there, I was doing well. I liked everyone I worked with. But when Cassidy slides in your DMs and you have a chance to work directly with her and learn from her, you have to explore that opportunity.So, that's what at least led me to having the conversation. And then the way I was treated by everyone through the interview process. No one was trying to trip me up, no one was asking me ridiculous questions. And they were actively fighting to make sure that I came in at a pay rate that made sense, and that I was trusted and given responsibility. And I have to say, once I got there, I found out that I had taken the wrong role.I asked questions about what I was doing. I joined as part of the DX team and my role was to be a template engineer. So, I asked some questions: How much of my role would be coding? Because I knew I couldn't stray too far from the keyboard at this stage of my career. And I got answers, but I didn't know the right questions to ask.When I heard I was—be coding, I thought that meant like how I do now. I work on a product team with a PM and a designer, and they cut issues for me. But what happened in DX is it was much more self-directed, and the work was very different over there. It's incredibly important work. It's valuable work, but it didn't line up with my skill set.So, having that conversation with Cassidy, and then going on to have that conversation with my VP of engineer, a woman named Dana, and having the safety to have those conversations to say, “Hey, I know I just got here. This isn't right for me. I owe more to the DX team and I owe more to myself.” And to be well-received, and to immediately begin to have conversations with engineering managers to find out the right place for me, made me incredibly happy that I chose Netlify, and it kind of reinforced the things they were telling me in the interview process were real.Corey: The fact that you were able to make that transition within the first six months of working at a company and not transition to a different company, either by your choice or not, speaks volumes about how Netlify approaches engineering talent, and its business, and human beings.Natalie: I agree one hundred percent because they could have very easily told me, “Hey, you were hired to do this role. You didn't interview for a product team role, you're welcome to continue to do the work that you were hired to do or move on.” But they didn't do that. No one—in fact, they encouraged me to find the right place for myself.Corey: We talked a minute ago about the one of the values of mentors being able to normalize, is this normal or is this not? Let me just say from what I've seen for almost 20 years in this industry, that is not normal. That is an outlier in one of the most exceptional ways possible, and it is a great story to hear.Natalie: I tell you, I've had an absolutely termed entrance into tech. But also it goes back to, like, when I was in the interview process, I wasn't really focusing on, like, what I would be doing as much as who would I be doing it with and getting a feel for both Cassidy and Jason. And I was one hundred percent confident that at the end of the day, what they wanted was to bring me into the company and for me to do work that fulfills me.Corey: And it sounds like you've got there.Natalie: Absolutely. I'm very happy with the things I'm learning. This codebase is huge. I'm digging in. It's amazing. I couldn't ask for more in life right now.Corey: I want to thank you for being so generous with your time to talk with me today. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Natalie: I am on Twitter. My username is @codeFreedomRitr, but that's spelled C-O-D-E-F-R-E-E-D-O-M-R-I-T-R.Corey: Excellent. That is some startup to your word spelling there. That is fantastic. You could raise a $20 million seed round on that alone.Natalie: [laugh]. I mean, can I count that as, like, an endorsement? Can I—Corey: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I have strong opinions on the naming of various things. No, well done. Thank you so much for speaking with me today. I really appreciate it.Natalie: Thank you for having me, Corey. This has been a lovely experience.Corey: Natalie Davis, software engineer at Netlify. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment that you are then going to send to corporate and demand your 40 cents back.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

At harbour.today, Natalie Nzeyimana and her team are helping people build holistic resilience. On this episode, she and Chad talk about building the app at the beginning of the pandemic when she witnessed herself and others feeling like they were close to drowning and feeling really unmoored. Harbour is a space for people to anchor themselves, find clarity, and set sail. The community offers one-to-one coaching, workshops, a course, and a daily check-in tool. harbour.today (https://www.harbour.today/) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/harbour.today/) Twitter (https://twitter.com/natalieisonline) Lunchclub (https://lunchclub.com/) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And today, I'm joined by the founder of Harbour, Natalie Nzeyimana. So, Natalie, thanks for joining me. NATALIE: Thanks for having me on. CHAD: So tell me a little bit about what Harbour is. NATALIE: Sure. Harbour is a space for people to anchor self, find clarity, and set sail. We offer one-to-one coaching, workshops, a course, and a daily check-in tool. Harbour was built at the beginning of the pandemic when I witnessed within myself, and the people I knew who I'd worked with, friends, family, just a lot of us felt like we were close to drowning and feeling really unmoored. And so, it began as a course to think about the ways we could use holistic strategies to anchor ourselves and set sail. And from then, from November 2020 to now, it's become a product. CHAD: You started in November. And I know we first met in London a while ago. You were teaching yourself to code working on an education product if I remember right. And we got together at Google Space there and paired for a little bit. Did you code Harbour yourself? NATALIE: It feels like another lifetime. CHAD: [laughs] NATALIE: I think life before the pandemic and life after the pandemic; there's a real line there. I've done quite a bit of the coding myself. However, I've also used a lot of no-code solutions to create MVPs. They've been amazing at helping me scale, helping me test out ideas incredibly quickly. And so one of the interesting things about juggling doing client work, and then also building the back end, and building the module, and then building the design work, and thinking about content juggling all of these different pieces, is that equation of do I invest time in HTML, or do I invest time in machine learning that's going to help me scale? And making all of those intricate decisions has been really, really interesting because, of course, I want to make everything myself. But these no-code solutions have enabled me to test hypotheses so much faster so that I can save time in the long run. CHAD: Well, tell us a little bit more about what the product is today and what you went through to get to this point. NATALIE: Sure. So initially, I just posted on LinkedIn to see who would want to join the course. I had a really simple Squarespace page, and then that evolved into a Typeform which I would use with clients to help them track progress and checking in with their chakras every day. And so, the way that Harbour works is that we do an energy review based on the seven in-body chakras. And so, for anyone who might be unfamiliar with this terminology, the chakras are...well, there are different schools of thought on this. They are a system for either focusing during meditation depending on where you sit in terms of your feelings towards energy bodies. They are a subtle body energy system of themselves. And what I find incredibly helpful for those chakras is that they help people map their energy in a way that I haven't found anything else does effectively. So starting from the root chakra, which is the base of your spine, you can ask yourself, am I feeling safe? Am I feeling grounded? Am I feeling as though my material needs are met? Traveling up towards your reproductive area, you've got the sacral chakra which governs your sense of feeling as though you can desire the things that you desire in the world, feeling as though you are sensual. You're able to experience pleasure. You're able to be creative and playful. And then up to the solar plexus, which is around your navel area, governs the sense of personal power, empowerment, will, feeling as though you're able to go after your goals with chutzpah and energy. And then moving into the heart chakra, which governs this idea of do I feel as though I'm open to receiving and giving love freely? And the throat, do I feel as though I'm an open conduit for the truth of who I am? Do I feel as though I'm able to express myself fully in the world? And then into the third eye, which governs your intuition. Do I feel as though I'm able to trust my intuitive leads and to move with grace and ease, trusting and able to go with the flow? And then finally, we have the crown chakra, which governs do I feel open to receiving divine wisdom? Do I feel as though I'm in this world on my own and there's nothing but pure materiality? Or do I feel open to receiving what some people might call God or Allah or the Tao? Whatever your orientation is, do I feel open towards receiving that kind of wisdom? What's really beautiful about the chakras is that they've been used by ancient Chinese, ancient Egyptians, Tibetans, Sikhs, multiple traditions, and indigenous systems. And so there's kind of this lovely thread of people around the world thinking about how energy moves through our minds, bodies, and spirits. But that's quite a lot. So we just ask seven questions every day. CHAD: So I have to admit I was not...and my first exposure to this is this conversation. So is this something that you have been aware of and practicing prior to working on Harbour, or is it something that you found which then led you to the creation? NATALIE: Definitely the latter, the latter. So I went through a pretty gnarly, dark night of the soul and just had this huge existential crisis of wondering what am I here to do? Why am I here? What's my purpose in life? I don't know if other people might resonate with this, but kind of feeling that you make these huge or not so huge career goals, and then you reach them, and you still feel like something's missing. And in my quest to understand what that missing piece might be, I came across chakras, and I found it incredibly helpful. I think people who do yoga might be aware of this because they often come up to yoga. Physical movement is often a way of realigning and balancing the chakras. So there are specific movements or specific asanas that you can do to balance out your root chakra or balance out your Sacral Chakra, which is great because it's kind of like all of these different hacks you can do to bring your mind, body, and spirit back in line. And that's why I think I loved it because when I encountered a lot of other systems or other approaches, it just all felt a bit ephemeral and like I couldn't grasp it. But there was something about chakras that really spoke to the budding engineer within me because I was like, wait, you can just hack yourself into alignment? This is great. [chuckles] CHAD: So this is something you do daily. NATALIE: Well, something I try to do daily. [chuckles] CHAD: Okay. I meant, is this something one does daily? [chuckles] NATALIE: Yeah. Ideally, yes. Because it's like anything else that we do, if you want to maintain a certain level of well-being or perhaps a certain level of fluency, let's say, for example, in a language whether that's a programming language or the spoken language, you need to practice it every day. And so, with chakras and aligning one's mind, body, and spirit, it feels as though the stakes are slightly higher when we're in the middle of a pandemic, and there's so much uncertainty, and all of our lives have kind of been exposed to so much change. But yes, daily is optimal. Daily is, at least at Harbour, the bare minimum. What are some things that you do every day to balance your mind, body, and spirit? You may be aligning your chakras without quite realizing that you are. CHAD: Yeah. So I run every day. And I've often described that as that's my meditation. So I find that that really does wonders for reducing my overall stress. I do it in the morning before starting my day. And so, I think it really sets the foundation on which the rest of the day is built for me. And it wasn't until I made the commitment to do it every day. And now I run long distance enough where I need to take a rest day once a week. But when I made the commitment to do it every day, it really did change my relationship with running. NATALIE: That's so interesting. I was thinking about Kazuo Ishiguro's what I think about when I'm running or something along those lines. He's written this great book. And I know several people who run and have spoken of its incredible meditative qualities. And I think that's a wonderful way of connecting with yourself or creating space to connect with yourself. I also wanted to touch upon something that I know that we tend to move towards or perhaps even a dichotomy: do we meditate to relieve stress, or do we meditate to get closer to our divinity? And so one of the things at Harbour that we try to do is we try to help folks shift from meditating to relieve stress to meditating to connect with one's divinity, and that way, the stress doesn't become as prominent a factor for which meditation is there to alleviate. CHAD: What do you mean by divinity in this case? NATALIE: Yeah, great question. Very controversial. [laughs] I mean, it's 2021, and the least cool thing you could possibly do in an engineering environment is talk about God and the divine. I think there is a really interesting choice point we're at as a collective where there is an increased awareness of consciousness. So there's a lot of language in at least the tech community, from my experience, whether you've got things like Burning Man or just a lot of products and offerings out there, which are there to raise your consciousness. One of the really tricky things about raising your consciousness...and in the chakra system, we do that through something that's called a kundalini awakening, which is where your consciousness does raise from the root chakra all the way to the crown. As your consciousness raises through the chakras, coming from the Indian tradition, what happens is your life force, your consciousness moves through your chakras, and each chakra it touches upon triggers a mini awakening. So, for example, as your life force is moving through your root chakra, anything that may have happened in your childhood, anytime that you may have experienced any aspect of material instability, let's say you lost your job or you had a partnership fall apart, or any time where you felt like your world completely crumbled, that will likely be triggered when you're going through that mini awakening in that root chakra. I mentioned divinity because it feels as though there are two paths we can go down. We can either go down the path of I am raising my consciousness. I am the master of my own destiny. I know what I am here to do in life, and I'm in control of my own awakening. Or we can go down another path which is far trickier, which is sort of saying, "At every point in every day, I choose to surrender to the wisdom that is far beyond me. And I'm going to trust the signals and the science that I receive that they are aligned with my highest good." One of these paths is more egoic, and the other one is more surrendered. That's not to say that we don't need an ego. But the ego can get into really tricky territory when you're doing this kind of alignment and awakening work, and it can really do a lot of harm. And I don't say that through judgment. I say that because I've been through the wringer with a lot of ego deaths. And so, one of the safest ways to mitigate that risk of the ego taking over is to surrender to something that is far more wise than you. Perhaps you don't resonate with the idea that there is only one creator, and that's fine. But perhaps just from a logical point of view, it does seem to make more sense to surrender to the fact that there's something that knows more than I do at any moment. CHAD: So this is some really big stuff. NATALIE: Oh yeah. CHAD: Before we get much further into it, I think for listeners who want to learn more or are interested in what they're hearing and want to give it a try, where do they do that? Where do they find Harbour? And what is it going to look like? NATALIE: Sure. So you can follow us at harbour.today online on our website also on Instagram. And I'd love to invite your listeners to try out our 30-day trial, where if you complete 30 days of your chakra daily check-in, you'll receive access to our platform with activities, reading prompts, and also different course materials for free for a whole year. And I know I'm probably giving this away to a lot of people because all the engineers I know are very disciplined, [laughs] and they'll do this 30-day streak like it's a GitHub streak. CHAD: [laughs] NATALIE: So I'm shooting myself in the foot a little bit. But I'm really keen to offer folks who are asking these questions who are thinking about what am I here to do? Is there more? How do I engage with literature that could help me ask these questions more deeply within myself? And the daily check-in and the learning platform is a really simple way to do that. CHAD: Great. That's great. I hope folks check it out. So, in addition to the daily check-in, you just gave some hints on what is actually on the platform. There are reading prompts and those sorts of things. Is there more than that as well available? NATALIE: Definitely. So we are launching a monthly course on October 6th, and then the next one will be in January when we come back from the break called Organic Cycles. And the purpose of this course is to help people who are thinking about launching something. So you may have a side project that you're thinking about launching or perhaps a hobby that you feel like you want to take up, or maybe you even want to become an entrepreneur full time. But you're a little bit overwhelmed by what might be involved by that. And so at Harbour, we're real big believers in cyclic, iterative, sustainable growth. And so, we use the moon cycle for our sprints. We use it for measuring our tasks. And in Organic Cycles, you will learn about the moon. You'll follow the Moon Phases. And let's say, for example, you want to start a new business selling socks. [laughs] On the new moon on October the sixth, you will join us, and you will tell us all about your sock business. And we'll listen, and we'll make a plan as other people in the cosmic plan. In the first quarter, we'll start thinking a little bit about why do you love socks so much? Where does that come from? And what are the small steps we can make together to help you grow your sock business within this moon cycle? Which is, of course, 28 days. On the full moon, we'll celebrate all the progress that you've made with your sock business. And together, we'll figure out the next steps. In the last quarter, we'll think about hmm, what were the experiments making the sock business so far that worked really well? What are the ones that didn't? Which ones would you like to take into the next cycle? And on the next new moon, we'll start all over again. And so it's very similar to an agile workflow, except you're learning about the moon. And the reason why I believe that's important is because a lot of our day-to-day lives are just so focused on abstract entities and not necessarily the natural world. And so a lot of the prompts in the daily review for Harbour are getting outside, all sorts of different things that reconnect you to nature as a way of rewilding you. So yeah, I'd really love for folks to come on board. If you have any experience with agile, even if you don't and you're just curious about the moon, and want to find out a little bit more about the stars and anything natural, and meet other people who are curious about energy and ideation and how to create cycles which feel more organic, we'd love to have you along. CHAD: I really like the sound of this in that it's a structure to anything. A group environment where you're helping each other is great. Layering on the information about the moon and everything adds an additional element of interest to it. I'm just a big believer in being intentional about what we do in our businesses and in our lives. So any structure that can help people be intentional about what they do, I think is going to help people and help them be more successful than if they just don't have a plan and aren't intentional, aren't consciously thinking about what they want to achieve, and what they want for themselves. And helping people do that, I think, is great. NATALIE: Definitely. And I definitely have been on both sides of that coin, either having too much structure or no structure at all. And I think there's something really beautiful about naming things in ways that feel soft and ways that feel different to people so that they can access that idea and be playful with it and be creative. Because I know that for a lot of people who we work with, post-burnout, folks who are incredibly structured. The Harbour client is a recovering Type A like me who has probably been an overachiever at school and has probably been incredibly structured in their lives but didn't really know how to let go and didn't really know how to create fluidity and flow in their life. And so one of our tag lines is between discipline and surrender and a devotion to flow. And flow is made possible through that playfulness, and through that structure, and through those rituals, and through that surrender, which is really fun. And it's always really, really fun to see people connect the dots and see, oh, it's quite interesting. Like on full moons, I do have a lot more energy. Or on the new moons, I do feel a little bit more restful, and giving people prompts to add self-care and add meditation to their existing structures. CHAD: So this might be an overly practical question, but I'm curious how you manage time zones. NATALIE: [laughs] With naps. [laughter] CHAD: Okay. Fair enough. NATALIE: No, really, I do. I have naps. And I really love work...as you know, I've been working with folks in the U.S. for the last ten years. And I really enjoy it because I think it feels like transporting to a different environment. So, yeah, just a nap, and then I wake up, and I'm in a different country. It's great. CHAD: [laughs] So it's almost like you've actually traveled then. NATALIE: Exactly. Exactly. CHAD: Hopefully, a little less jetlag. NATALIE: Yeah, it's really great. What about in your work? I know that you're one of the most organized and structured people I've ever met. But sometimes, when I'm in Notion, I'm like, what would Chad do? [chuckles] But how do you find the balance between order and structure and allowing yourself the space to find flow and surrender even as a leader, even when you're building a product? CHAD: Well, thank you for the compliment. I appreciate it. Let me preface by saying I think that nothing ever stays the same. And so what I do today and what's working for me today is probably pretty different than three years ago because our teams are in different places, and the people I work with are different, and I'm in a different place. So the thing that's working for me now is putting times blocked off on my calendar where I want to either...it's a regularly scheduled time. And I have one on Thursday; it's from 2:00 to 5:00 p.m. It's just blocked off, and it just says, "Focus time." And each week, then I decide in advance what I'm going to be doing during that focus time. And it might be exploring something new. It might be working on something specific. And then, when I need to accomplish something else, making sure that I block off the time on the calendar. And so that's working for me now. And it's not what I used to do. I used to be much more freeform. Nowadays, if I don't block off the time, I lose it. Previously, I could maintain a lot of free time on my calendar and use that as the time I was doing things. And as we grew and as I was working with people more across all of thoughtbot, across many different time zones, I needed to be much more conscious about what my scheduled time actually looked like and make sure that I'm scheduling time to work on things more freeform. NATALIE: Yeah, definitely. That's so helpful. And I like the idea of time blocking. I've been trying to do a little bit more of that. What's interesting, too, is as Harbour grows and the product grows, and thinking about scaling and trying to anticipate things before they happen, even though you can't anticipate everything, one of the exercises I've been thinking about is what would it feel like to have a team of this many people and meditate on that idea and see if it feels right? And do I necessarily need to have a team that looks like X or a team that looks like Y? And trying to meditate into what that experience would be before making the decision. And I'm wondering if, through your experience having run this global company and having scaled it over more than a decade, what are some of the things that you've done to pre-pave and to support the sustainable scaling of the business? CHAD: I think thinking things through in advance is very important. And I don't say the next thing I'm about to say because it's not important because I think that it is very important, and I certainly do it. But I've also come to grips over the years with the idea that no matter how much we plan, it's not going to go like we plan. And so there's this interesting balance between planning too much and reacting to what's happening. And I'll come back to intentionality. And the way that I talked about it at thoughtbot is letting fulfillment be our North Star. So we shouldn't be doing things just because we think they'll be good business decisions or because we think they're the right thing to do for some arbitrary reason. We should be driven by what we want to be doing in our work and what kind of company we want to be, and being fulfilled in our work. And when we're faced with a decision to make about who we are, or what we do, or how we're going to approach this, letting it be driven by fulfillment is very powerful. Because it means that likely what everyone wants from their work is not so different from one another, especially when we curate a team of people that want to work together for our working lives what might be. It's probably not so different from each other. So that's also very powerful because it means that I don't need to be the one to make all of the decisions. Other people can make those decisions around who we are and what we'll do, and which direction will head in. And they'll very likely be what will be fulfilling to the rest of the team as well. And so it sort of democratizes that decision-making in a way which is more resilient and then can be more flexible. As our best-laid plans start to go awry, we're making decisions based on fulfillment. And I think that allows us to be resilient. NATALIE: Yeah, that's so helpful. CHAD: Because so much of what we've tried, particularly when we intentionally try to grow, so many of the decisions that have made thoughtbot successful we weren't making them for business reasons, we were making them because -- NATALIE: They felt right. CHAD: They felt right. We were the first consulting company in the world to switch to Ruby on Rails. We didn't make that decision because we thought Rails was going to be popular. We made it because, as developers and designers, we were more fulfilled using this new thing, Rails, than using PHP or Java. And, in fact, if we had been focused on what we thought would be the successful business thing, we might never have chosen that because it can feel very risky because you're choosing something entirely unknown. So the opposite example is we've tried very hard to grow over the years non-organically geographically. So someone is moving to this area, or we are going to hire someone in this area. And we're going to grow into this area. And it's not driven necessarily by fulfillment. And in a lot of those cases, it's been very difficult, or it's outright not been successful. And so, being able to react to those situations and adjust has been critical for our long-term success. Another word I use often is grit. And grit, for me, means we fail a bunch but we stay at it because we are driven by...what's driving that is fulfillment. So even if we really believe in it, even if we've failed in execution for business reasons or something like that, we tend to stick with it over the long term and just try a different way. NATALIE: Yeah, I hear that. There is so much grit that's required to sustain something over a long period of time. And it feels like quite an incremental grit as opposed to huge pushes of energy that we might witness in different business models, for example, venture capital. And having been in the whirlwind of the VC world a little bit and now building what I hope is a more sustainable model, the grit is very moment to moment. It's continuous. Each task, each decision, it's a soft resilience that kind of grows over time as opposed to having to wield huge amounts of chutzpah to get through this investment cycle. Do you know what I mean? CHAD: I do, and I think that has a flip side as well, which I try to be conscious of but don't always do a good job with. I tend not to project too far; that's one side. And then the reverse is also true, which I tend not to celebrate successes enough. I tend not to reflect on the past too much because I'm on to the next incremental improvement pretty quickly. That has benefits because when you have a down day, tomorrow is a new day. It's a brand new day. But that has downsides too, which is when you have a great day, [laughs] you're on to the next thing the next day as well, at least for me. I move on very quickly. And like I said, I think that has its benefits, and it has its downsides. NATALIE: What are your rituals for celebrating both personally and professionally? How do you celebrate yourself and the ways that you've grown? And how do you celebrate the business that you've grown with others? CHAD: Just being honest, I probably have not...I do not have rituals. And I think this is where having good partners, or other members of my team has been helpful because knowing that this will be my tendency, having other people backing me up to recognize the successes or to call me on when I'm moving on too quickly or something like that has been helpful. NATALIE: Yeah, definitely. CHAD: Are you working on Harbour solo right now, or are you working with others? NATALIE: Sure. Sometimes I work with a really wonderful ayurvedic practitioner called Sriram, who was an engineer for 15 years before he became an ayurvedic practitioner. So completely similar to you in that thought about going about and finding a co-founder or partnering with someone. And then I just had this really lovely chat with someone on Lunchclub. And we ended up talking about chakras for an hour and also coding. And I was like, this is my dream. [laughs] I get to talk about chakras, and I get to talk about product. This is great. And so, I work with Sriram sometimes on client work. Normally, the split is that he takes approximately a third of the client sessions, but we work on the one-to-one coaching. And so, I'm your accountability coach. And we're hiring more now, which is really exciting. And I'll do the weekly reviews with clients, and then Sriram will put together the ayurvedic program for the client. So that's always really great fun. And I'm also working with a wonderful designer based in San Francisco called Christina. And yeah, so the three of us...Sriram has his own practice, and Christina has her own agency. But there's a lot of collaborative work that's happening there. And I'm currently onboarding more coaches, which is exciting and very necessary because I came to a choice point, and I said, do I want to study chakras and become qualified? And I realized I didn't. I wanted to talk to all the people who knew about chakras and who were qualified, and so that's been a lovely experience onboarding them, and onboarding therapists, and onboarding other personal development coaches who are going to be able to serve clients as we scale. CHAD: Nice. You mentioned Lunchclub many times in the story of Harbour on the website. I have never used Lunchclub. But I heard of it before. And if folks haven't heard of it, what's the pitch for Lunchclub? [chuckles] NATALIE: It's LinkedIn as you'd want it to be. [laughter] CHAD: Oh, that's great. That's great. NATALIE: I think Lunchclub gets rid of all of the bravado and all of the stuff on LinkedIn because I think a lot of us do really struggle with self-promotion online. But at the same time, we want to connect with people. And we want to have real conversations that hopefully lead to more conversations or more opportunities for both parties. And when I started on Lunchclub about a year and a half ago, it was just an incredible way to connect with people around the world. I'd just moved into a flat. I was living on my own in the middle of the pandemic and in the middle of the lockdown building product. And I thought, I really need to chat to people because I really enjoy doing that. And through 45-minute conversations, you get matched by their little magical AI, and you connect with people who might be related to the interests that you have. And you can build streaks. And the more streaks you build, the more points you get. And the more points you get, the more you can choose who you connect with based on geography and business development goals, et cetera. Well, even if you do choose I want to meet an investor or I want to meet a Biz Dev specialist, this isn't really a sales call or an investment pitch. It's just I want to increase the likelihood that the person I meet will be aligned with where I'm trying to get on my journey. CHAD: Well, the pandemic has been a really difficult time for everybody, parents, and of which I count myself in that. In particular, seeing it across thoughtbot, obviously, a trend is the people who live alone had an especially challenging time during the strictest of the lockdowns that were happening. And it was challenging. We saw a lot of people struggling. And because we were all remote, you're remote all day working. You don't necessarily want to be reaching out to people remotely, just that energy there. And I think that's maybe where Harbour comes in is solving that energy problem that I think many of us are feeling now. NATALIE: Definitely. I think what happened over the last year and a half, two years, has created a tectonic shift, but I think also a portal because it's forced us to reckon with ourselves in ways that perhaps we had been ignoring, in ways that we didn't know we needed to, in ways that we've been forced to. And it can be really scary. And even as an adult, that's weird. It's weird to feel that scared as an adult. It's weird to feel that displaced as an adult. It's weird to feel so unmoored. It's weird to feel like you're starting from scratch again, not necessarily in terms of your career or what you post on LinkedIn about who you are, but inside that, you really are starting from scratch: Who am I without access to my friends? Who am I without access to family members? Who am I without X? Who am I without Y? And so, the pandemic kind of energetically takes everything away, and so we can see ourselves more clearly. And that can be really strange because we haven't had the opportunity to do that in the past. And for many folks, often, we don't engage with mental health or well-being until something goes wrong. And we don't really engage with these ideas until we feel we're at a breaking point. And so the pandemic being the biggest breaking point we've had as a collective, at least in the Western world, we are forced to do that reckoning. And so, of course, it's not just a loneliness pandemic; it's not just a burnout pandemic. I really do think it's an existential pandemic because people are wondering, or at least I am, and I know others who are, and I think others who are listening might be: Who am I? What am I here to do? What's my destiny? Why am I here? What's next? How do I make sense of all of the things that have happened in my life so far? And because there's no noise and no distraction or no busyness much as there was before the pandemic, you really are just there with yourself reckoning with those questions. CHAD: Well, Natalie, I'm happy to see that someone emerged on the other side of this with a new product. NATALIE: [laughs] CHAD: And I wish you the best. NATALIE: Thank you. Thank you very much. CHAD: Again, if folks want to sign up or check it out more or just follow along with you, where are all the places that they can do that? NATALIE: Sure. I would love for folks to connect on Instagram, harbour.today. You can also sign up to our newsletter. We have a daily email that comes out with questions from our community. So folks might ask things along the lines of what I've been describing, and we'll respond with some chakra guidance, some ancient philosophy that might be helpful, and also some practical tools, things that you can do like walking barefoot in your local park. Or some breathing exercises that might help you find balance within, or some yoga can really help you hack your chakras back into alignment, or some scripture that may help you reconnect with your divinity. CHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. And we are emerging into this new season with full transcripts of every show as well. So you can find those on the website. And it will be included in the show notes, so they appear in your podcast player as well. I'm excited. It's something that we have been talking about doing for a while, but the time and expense of it traditionally was prohibitive. But we've made it happen for this new season in no small thanks to our new editor and producer, Mandy Moore. So if you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and edited by Mandy Moore. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Natalie Nzeyimana.

Natalie Proenca conquered breast cancer for over 10 years. Her cancer diagnosis was in 2008 with conventional treatment. Then a few years later she had tumors in ovaries and uterus. Her oncologist confirmed that it was caused by hormonal therapy. She took this chance and used a natural approach and treated it by changing diet and exercises. She has transformed herself using mind-body-spirit and decided to leave her Software Engineer career and was trained as a Cancer Coach with BeatCancer and TrulyHeal, and certified Holistic Integrative Health Coach with IIN. She is also a certified Plant-based Nutrition Graduate at eCornell (with T. Colin Campbell). She's helped many cancer patients recover from the treatments and even help them healed from different types of cancer such as breast cancer, cervical cancer, ovarian cancer, lung cancer, kidney cancer, colon cancer, thyroid cancer, and brain cancer. She offers online programs; Colon & Kidney Detox and Beat Cancer Naturally. She has a strong passion to guide you to find the best protocol for you to fight cancer and get well. Connect with her on facebook.com/Natalie.Proenca or email at CoachNatalieProenca@gmail.com or 508-282-6698. Natalie:  For someone who just found out that they've been diagnosed with cancer. What should they do? I think the very first thing you need to understand is that you have had cancer for years. You did not have cancer two days ago or two months ago, it has been for a long time. It could take seven to ten or twenty years. If you have lung cancer, it could be thirty years. So do not rush. I want you to step back and then just take a quiet moment and ask yourself, how did you get cancer and what you should do next. Most people, when they learn that they have cancer, get frustrated. They have fears. When you make decisions with fears, you make the wrong decision. I want you to learn, I want you to search, ask people who have been there, who have experience guide you, what you should do. So you have the right path. You don't want to try left and right and back and forth. You're going to lose time. Even though I said, you have been having cancer for a long time, but sometimes when you choose the wrong road, you're losing time and the cancer, it's true that it's growing all the time, but it's not as fast as when you know it. Think about two years, five years ago, you did not know that you have cancer. You never care about cancer. You never really think about it, but now you know that you have cancer, you start having fears, you start worry and that causes cancer to grow very fast. So the first thing you should do is to just step back and ask yourself, what is the right protocol for you? You want to do conventional, or you want to do naturally or you want to do integrative? I want you to sit down and then take a piece of paper and write down pros and cons of each approach and think about what will fit your lifestyle the most, and what's best for yourself because each approach is not the best for everyone. You have to come up with your own protocol and that's the very first step that I want to suggest to anyone that has just been diagnosed with cancer. Intro: Hello and welcome to the Beat Cancer Answer brought to you by beatcancer.org. The center for advancement in cancer education. Carl: This is Carl Wagner. I'm here with Beat Cancer. We're here with another one of our great coaches, Natalie Parenza and I'm going to just shut up and let her speak. So Natalie, please tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey and how you came to beat cancer? Natalie: My name is Natalie. My journey about cancer; I have been diagnosed since 2008, when my youngest son was just 10 months old. I had breast cancer and my son was just learning how to walk. At that time  I had no knowledge. I had no information about alternative medicine or alternative approaches so I don't know what to do. I just took the conventional treatment, just like a lot of people did. So I had surgery, I had chemotherapy, radiation. Then one day I saw one of my friends, she had cancer returned. She had breast cancer before and then she had cancer returned. The second time she had brain cancer and she didn't make it and I have seen a lot of people and I started to realize that conventional treatment is not the answer. I had that experience myself. I was on Tamoxifen, I was on hormone therapy for two years, then it started showing tumor in my ovaries and uterus. So the doctor kept watching the tumor growing, by that time I already told myself that I don't want to be like others, I don't want cancer to return. What should I do? I start taking control of my health and I start searching for the answer, how can I be cancer free? So I study a lot. I started reading books, any books about cancer, I just read it and I started changing my lifestyle, changing my diet. So I told my doctor that I don't want any surgery anymore. I don't want any drugs, nothing. So I started changing, implementing a new diet. I make green smoothie every day and then start cutting meat one by one until finally I was able to switch everything. So I was on a plant based at some point. So I'm not completely vegan or vegetarian, I'm just trying to find what is best for me. So six months after that, the doctor said, what did you do? Your tumor is gone, but the doctor's still giving me Tamoxifen, I still kept taking it because she said, I'm still young. I was diagnosed when I was 36 and she said, okay, because you have an aggressive type, your cancer can come back in five years so you should be on hormone therapy. So I told my doctor that I don't want anything removed, no more surgery. So the first time the tumor was gone, she just said it was a surprise. Maybe it was something of a fault test or something. So I kept taking Tamoxifen more and more and the tumor started growing again. The second time I was able to shrink the tumor, it happened three times until my oncologist said, okay, yes, your hormone therapy is actually causing your tumor to grow. So it took three times for my oncologist to convince me that it was the hormone of therapy that caused that. I knew that, so that time I already have knowledge, I already know what to do with my body so I was not afraid of cancer anymore. So that's my turning point, that's why I want to take control of myself and I start changing. It seems like I have my new life since then. So I have been doing this for more than 10 years now. I've been cancer free for 10 years. Carl: Congratulations. Natalie: Thank you so much, that's how I started to really pay attention and really interested and I want to become a cancer coach and help other people. Carl: Yeah. Make your cancer mean something. Natalie: It does. Carl: Yes. So I hear many similar stories. In fact I might've shared this before with some other coaches, but my mother had breast cancer and she did radiation and I'm not sure if she did chemo, I was pretty young at the time. So she was a statistic of somebody who lived through breast cancer because she lasted more than five years. So they say you're a survivor, but she did die of cancer and it was cancer and that was in her intestinal area. It was actually on top of it. It was strange. So just like you said, the cancer came back and just like you said, a lot of people that the cancer comes back, they must change their lifestyle. Natalie: So that was the thing that I started questioning because when I took the conventional treatment, I did not have any knowledge. My doctor did not tell me, she just said, oh, you can eat everything, but just reduce red meat to just a couple of meals per week and I hear a lot of information from my friends, from the media and it just gets confusing. At some point at the beginning, I actually refused everything because I don't trust anyone. Then I realized why a lot of people have cancer return. So conventional treatment is not the answer. Then I start searching for the truth. Then I realized that, oh my God, I have to do something because I don't want to be like others that have cancer return again. So that's what I start searching and learning and learning and here I am, I believe that my knowledge can help others and if I can save someone's life or someone can use my information, my knowledge that I have been studying for more than 10 years, I want to help other, I want to be the person who opening that door and show them and tell them here. There are so many roads, so many paths that you can choose how to get well without using a conventional treatment or if you want to integrate it both, you have to do something. You have to protect yourself, not to really get cancer again; I have seen some people, some of my clients, that they did not prepare themselves and then when they receive chemotherapy or radiation and they just get sick and sicker, and then they cannot tolerate the medicine, they cannot tolerate the drugs and they didn't make it and that is so sad.  That is why this information is not there for people to know this. Carl: Yeah. It seems that well here in America, when somebody has any type of heart issue, anything, they usually leave the doctor's office with a laundry list of things to do, eat less salt, get more exercise, lose some weight, less red meat. But when we go to the oncology office with cancer, they don't tell you anything it seems, at least in regards to how you can participate in your own healing the way that they deal with heart issues say you get to be a participant, you get to be part of the healing process. So yeah, and what you said about integrative approach. So we don't ever say to anybody don't follow your doctor's advice that would just put us out of business in a heartbeat and set us up for liability. But we absolutely do say look with what our advice is let's change the terrain of your body. Let's get you in the best position for your body to help itself heal because the medicines and the radiation do not heal the cancer, it kills the cancer. Natalie: And it's temporary. Those treatments kill the cancer but just for a very short time. Carl: Right. Right. And you've got to change your lifestyle like you said, like you did, an excellent example, right. You're a role model and that's a great thing. You show how you can come back and have a vibrant life. Yeah, love it. So how did you find beat cancer? Natalie: So I have been studying, searching, I'm always learning and I actually want more and more information. Then I took health coach training from IIN Institute for Integrative Nutrition.  When I'm done with that it gives me an overview of how to become a health coach, but then I want a specific cancer coach. Then I Google it and I have been looking for many, many places and this is it. When I watched the video, when I watched Susan talking and I was like, I have to enroll into this program and that's how I found beat cancer.org. Carl: Oh, that's great. That's great. So what was it about the course that you feel that you gained knowledge wise that helped you over the other things that you have already learned? Natalie: My favorite part, I have three favorites. One is the mind, body, spirit part; I never heard it from anywhere about characteristics of cancer patients, especially Susan summarized more than 30,000 patients that she interviewed and she summarized each type of cancer, breast cancer, uterus cancer, kidney and lung cancer. It's just amazing that when I look at myself, I ask myself, yes, is this true and moreover, I try to use that information because I already started having clients before. So I start asking questions when they come to me, I ask, okay, what type of cancer do you have? And I started applying the knowledge from what I learned from Beat Cancer and every single one said it correctly, how did I know that? It seems like I'm a fortune teller, but I said based on the studies as Susan did that and I was like it is amazing for me about my body's connection about each type of cancer. So that's my first impression is my favorite information that I learned from beat cancer. The second one is the document. Oh my God, it was just like massive, all what I want to know including diet, what to eat, what not to eat and there the chart about the mind, the spirit, the spiritual, what to do, the A-Z kinds of food, the superfood, everything, all the documentation that this organization gathered. It's so valuable, it's much more than the tuition fee that I paid. Honestly, you get a lot more. The bonus is a plus, everything that I want to learn about cancer that is always document there. So the third part that I like a lot is the example of the interview, the case study and showing real examples, how to interview and how to ask questions, how to ask the right question to clients and observation about the patient, when they respond and what we should ask and that I think is very good. I didn't learn from anywhere else. So that's my, the best favorite parts that I learned that's a lot more than that though. It's a lot, but if I pick the top three, that would be it. Carl: Yeah. The bonus area was something I did after Susan retired. I felt like everything that we had in digital format, all the books, all the videos, all the audio recordings, I wanted our coaches to have all of that and I just threw it all in. Everything that she's ever done for 35 years I wanted you guys to have it. So I'm glad you mentioned that, that makes me feel good that you took advantage of that and enjoyed that. Natalie: Oh, I go through everything. I cannot remember everything though. I think I have to go through that again and again, there's so much information and I'm just so excited. I was one of those people that was really crazy about learning. I never stopped learning, and this is always something for me to learn. Carl: Yeah. It's just the beginning that our course is just the beginning. It's to set you on the right course for your journey and I don't know; where are you working at right now? Natalie: Where am I working right now? Carl: No, no, your country. Natalie: Oh, I'm originally from Thailand and most of my clients, they are Thai, but they're living in the US; most of my clients they are in Thailand and I have people from all over the world. Some people, some Thai people live in Germany, New Zealand, Switzerland and some in France,.It's very exciting to be a coach and I'm able to help people around the world. Carl: Yeah. I love it. I love it. It just seems like we get one person and all of a sudden all over the world, they're teaching people and I love it that you're teaching the Taiwanese and bringing it to the Taiwanese culture and you're just a shining example. Natalie: Yes. Especially when I've been living in the US more than 20 years. When I talk to Thai people about cancer, they don't have information like how I have here. So I see that's why no one tell them about this. There may be cancer coaches in Thailand that I haven't met, but I see that there are some information that is very valuable, that they should know about this and I started with clients in Thailand first because I wanted to help them and I also have clients here in the US as well. I just see that Thai people need someone to really share this information, because it's a lot of information. I see that they're still; I was thinking about myself 10 years ago when I was diagnosed with cancer. Nobody tells me anything about alternatives, so I think Thailand, it just like back then there's still like, everything is about chemotherapy. You must take chemotherapy only, radiation only and you should not take any supplements because it's going to interfere with chemotherapy. So when I heard that from Thai people, I was like no, no, no, no, that's not true. All this information, I don't want to put the word that they are behind here. It's just nobody delivered this message to them. So that's why I want to tell them and I also have lots of people and friends back in Thailand that have cancer. So I start with that. Carl: So with the cookbooks and the A-Z guide do you feel that there's enough variety in there to cook Thai style with those foods? Natalie: Oh, that's a very good point because when I start talking about changing diet, eating plant based, people wondering what is the plant based diet. We know that we need to eat plants, but exactly how? And then when I start talking about eating salad, people would just really put that off because, oh, no, that's only food for Western. It's just the name of the dish. I said, don't think about it as a Western dish, you should eat as close as natural as possible. So it's true that the salad dish, the diet that we learn here in the US, it doesn't fit the culture in Thailand because people eat a lot of cooked food, curry. They use a lot of curry. They eat fresh, raw vegetables, but in a different way, a very different way. So when I started to eat salad, everybody thought about salad dressing in a way that you have to use eggs and oil. Carl: Yeah. Well, maybe you'll have to come up with some great Thai recipes. Natalie: Then I started learning more and more, also using the Thai culture, the food in Thailand, what is safe for cancer patients? So I started an online course. Carl: Oh, great. Natalie: Yes. So I started the online course, I started with colon and liver detoxification and introducing green juice and changing diet and doing coffee enema, helping people to get rid of the toxins. Then I launched another online course beating cancer naturally. Then I start introducing using the Gerson therapy protocol and mixed with some of the vegetables that people can use and can find in Thailand and so I use Gerson therapy as my core that's because I learned Gerson therapy before I found beat cancer. Carl: Right. Right. And while we're not just one therapy, it seems like, I think we kind of give you a broad array of tools to use instead of just one singular approach. But you are right, we are mostly plant based and so is Gerson. Natalie: Right, right. Carl: Yeah. Well, that's great. You made the courses, you already beat me to it. I just didn't know about it. That's excellent. So okay, I'm going to give you the bonus question and, of course, I want you to tell people where they can find you, because if they're just listening to this on a podcast I want them to know where to find you. But the bonus question is if you could just give one tip to somebody getting started what would that be? The getting started in their cancer journey? Natalie: For someone who just found out that they've been diagnosed with cancer, I think the very first thing you need to understand is that you have cancer for years, you did not have cancer two days ago or two months ago, it has been for a long time. It could take seven to ten or twenty years. If you have lung cancer, it could be 30 years. So do not rush. I want you to step back and then just take a quiet moment and ask yourself, how did you get cancer and what you should do next. Most people, when they learn that they have cancer, they get frustrated, they have fears. When you make a decision with fears, you make the wrong decision. I want you to learn, I want you to search, ask people who have been there, who have experience, guide you what you should do so you have the right path. You don't want to try left and right and back and forth, you're going to lose time. Even though I said you have been having cancer for a long time, sometimes when they choose the wrong road, you're losing time and the cancer, it's true that it's growing all the time, but it's not as fast as when you know it. Think about two years, five years ago, you did not know that you have cancer. You never care about cancer. You never really think about it but now you know that you have cancer you start having fears, you start worry and that causes cancer to grow very fast. So the first thing you should do is to just step back and ask yourself, what is the right protocol for you? You want to do conventional or you want to do naturally all you want to do an integrative? I want you to sit down and then take a piece of paper and write down pros and cons of each approach and think about what will fit your lifestyle the most, and what's best for yourself because each approach is not the best for everyone. You have to come up with your own protocol and that's the very first step that I want to suggest to anyone that just diagnosed with cancer. Carl: That's great. Just take a step back, that is a problem, people get rushed right in, hurry up and take this protocol and they don't have any time to think and the family too, the family is scared, they just want you to do what the doctor says. I think it's really good advice to slow it down. Make sure you do what's right for you. Very good, excellent advice. Natalie: And finding the right doctor, good doctor, that's also very important. My doctor never rushed me actually, when I searched for a doctor, when I found out that I had cancer, it was very bad timing. I was about to travel to Thailand. I have a couple of days to fly and it was during the Christmas and New Year season. I'm about to fly to Thailand and my doctor called me, said the result, the tests came back and it was cancer. So I was in denial mode, I did not believe that so I thought it was a joke. So a lot of people may have that feeling. I thought it was a flu. Okay. I have a flu and a few days it will go away, until the next day I start to realize, this is no kidding. This is real. So I asked my doctor and she said, well, you are going to be on vacation, just go, a couple of weeks will not make a difference. So my doctor let me travel and enjoy my life. Enjoy my vacation, she said, when you come back then you can start thinking about a treatment. I have heard someone that have doctors told them, no, you need surgery. You need chemotherapy right away. Carl: I've heard that too. Natalie: And that made you even more nervous. Oh my God, I cannot wait a couple of days is going to be that bad. My life is going to end and that's when people get so frustrated. The more you rush, the more fears you have, and then you made the wrong decision. Carl: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it plants a seed in your head as well. Some people just die exactly on time when their doctors say they would. They're great doctors, but they're not psychic. Why is it three months on the day or a six months on the day or one year on the day? It's an amazing thing, a power that a healer has in their hands, just by what they tell you. Your doctor told you, good, go enjoy yourself. Don't worry about it for now. Yeah. It's a bad thing to hear right before you go on vacation, but then I'll take this time to just relax and then come back and we'll talk. Yeah, that was very good. So do you have anything else that you'd like to relate to our listeners and our watchers before we close it up? Natalie: I have some good stories to share, some of my clients. Carl: Yeah, that would be wonderful. Natalie: Can I share? I have been coaching many people around the world by now. I have some story that is really catchy for me. One lady, she just watched my YouTube video. She had lung cancer stage three, but her doctor told her that she would not survive more than three months. So she didn't start with stage three lung cancer. She started with stage one, as I said, when you know you have cancer, you have fears and that's how the tumor started growing really quickly. In only a few months, her tumor, her cancer grew to be stage three in a few months, it's growing really big and she went to see another doctor. So it was already stage three and the doctor said, you must do chemotherapy. If not, you will have only three months to live. Somehow, something happened, someone shared my video and she just watched that video and she said, this is it. She's going to try. She didn't want to have chemotherapy. So she went back home and started growing her own vegetables. She heard that coach Natalie said that you've got to eat organic vegetables and stop eating meat for her type of cancer, she did that. Three months later, she started having a checkup. Six months later, she had the test again and the doctor was surprised her tumor is gone. She did not tell me until two years after that, two more years, her sister actually sent me a message to thank me that your video saved my sister's life two years ago, my sister watched your video and she did not speak Thai properly because she's not Thai. She understands Thai and I was like my knowledge, my information, and my video that I posted on YouTube can save someone's life and it just like, keep me going and I want to do more of this. So I actually saved someone's life by someone just watching my video on YouTube, on how to change the diet and what to do and that's one of the stories that I want to know. It's one of the style that I really want to share that in someone that no longer has hope, when the doctor said you have only three months, six months to live. Hope is powerful and I want to be the person who delivered that hope and it's not as false hope because if one person can come back from stage four from bedridden, and then they become alive again, they can heal from cancer by themselves. If one person can do it there are more people who can do it and I think you can do it too. So that's what I want to deliver this message that doesn't lose hope. There's always hope if you're still alive. Carl: Yeah. We've seen that many times. We never say that we heal people from cancer because we don't, we just give them the tools that they need to allow their bodies to do the work that they're supposed to do. Natalie: And I have another story. This lady, she was in my group coaching. I have a six month group coaching program that I meet them every two weeks. So this lady she's 70 years old. The first cancer diagnosis was a couple years, about four years back, she had kidney cancer. She has surgery. She had the tumor removed, but she refused chemotherapy and no radiation, but she did not change her lifestyle. She did not change the diet. So four years later, which is this year 2020, at the beginning of the year, her cancer came back second time and the tumor, it was really, really close to where she had surgery before. So this is proof that you cannot cut out cancer. You have to really treat the real cause, you have to get rid of the cancer stem cell. So when she had cancer, the second time she chose not to do surgery and again, no radiation, no chemotherapy and she found me. So she joined a group coaching program and I gave her information. I give her the tool and I give them advice on what to do. Six months after the program ended, she had herself scanned and her doctor said, your tumor is gone. You no longer have cancer. It was really, really amazing. She's 70 years old, but she's willing to learn. She's willing to change her lifestyle, which is not very easy for someone who is 70. Carl: She really wanted it. She really wanted it. Yeah. Natalie: So this story, it just shows me that someone 70 year old can do it so you can do it too. It just you have the right tool, you have the right information and you have to believe, you have to believe in yourself and you have to trust yourself. That's what I want to say. Carl: Yeah. It's so hard when you're getting conflicting advice from people that are supposed to be smarter than you because they have letters after their name but like you said, you have to trust your gut. You have to trust your instinct. You have to take time to reflect and use the tools that are presented to you and I love that. I think your whole video should be called you can do it too and I think that's great. It's the truth. Yeah. Other people did it and you can do it too. Yeah. You got another one? Natalie: I do have a lot actually, but this is my top two. You want to hear more? What type of cancer you want to hear? I actually help someone healed from cancer, many types of cancer. I started with breast cancer. I have someone really healed from breast cancer without surgery, without chemo and radiation. Then my second one uterus cancer, kidney cancer, thyroid cancer, lung cancer, colon cancer, brain cancer. Carl: Yeah. Amazing stuff. Amazing. Yeah. Natalie: So what type of cancer do you want to hear the story? Carl: So well, it's getting a bit long. So what we'll do is do you have videos in English or is it all in Thai? Natalie: It's all in Thai. I haven't done it in English yet. Carl: Okay. Natalie: I will start that really soon. Carl: Yeah. Yeah. And we'll connect all your videos into our we have a playlist in YouTube, so we can list your videos in our playlist we'll list. We'll list what you have in Thai, but it'll be great for you to do an English two. Natalie: I will. Carl: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Natalie: I will be posting the video in English soon. Carl: Okay. So tell us podcast listeners how we can find you and your website and everything. Natalie: If you're here in the US you can send me a text message on my cell phone, (508) 282-6698 or you want to send me email coachnataleeparenza@gmail.com. We can provide you information right below this message, right? Carl: Yeah. Yeah. I'll put it up. I'll put everything in the show notes Natalie: coachnatalieproenca@gmail.com, or you can find me on Facebook. I'm always on Facebook and Instagram, my Facebook, I have personal webpage, Natalie Proenca or you want to find me, you can search “stop cancer with Natalie” in English, or in Thai: “หยุดมะเร็งกับโค้ชนาตาลี”. Then I have this Facebook page and you can find a lot of videos about how to beat cancer naturally or integratively. If  you decide to take chemotherapy, you need to take supplements and what supplements are right for you and how the diet will help you to get through chemotherapy and get well sooner. I have a lot of information on my Facebook page and on Instagram it's Coach Natalie and YouTube channel health coach Natalie. Or you can go to my website, healthcoachnatalie.com. Carl: Terrific. Wow. You're everywhere. Terrific. Well, thank you so much for taking some time with us today and sharing your stories. You're an inspiration and you're already an established coach, even before us. So I think that's wonderful and I love your stories of healing and your insights. Thank you so much. Natalie: Thank you so much. Thanks for watching. Outro: If we helped you learn just one thing today, about how to prevent cope with or beat cancer, then we have succeeded in our mission. Please remember to like, subscribe and comment. We appreciate all of your feedback and love your suggestions, your positive ratings, help us to get discovered so we can help save more lives. Thank you again for joining us and best wishes for good health from all of us beatcancer.org.

Haha, what's up, guys? This is Steve Larsen.   This is Sales Funnel Radio, and before we cue the intro here, I want you to know, this episode for me was really special.   I interview an incredible entrepreneur. Her name is Natalie Hodson. She's fantastic. I love learning and studying from her.   She's gonna talk about some things that went on kinda crazy in her life, and how to leverage the crazy things inside of your life for your audience - particularly around the subject of vulnerability.   So this is how to be vulnerable without looking like you're weak, right? And for a lot of guys, that's super important.   For a lot of selling in general, that's super important - the purpose is not to look like you're weak.   So anyways, let's cue the intro here. I hope you guys enjoy it, and if you have liked this, please reach out to her and say thank you. She puts some really amazing things out.   Thanks, guys, so much, and see you on the episode.   I've spent the last four years learning from the most brilliant marketers today, and now I've left my nine to five to take the plunge and build my million-dollar business.   The real question is, how will I do it without VC funding or debt, completely from scratch? This podcast is here to give you the answer.   Join me and follow along as I learn, apply, and share marketing strategies to grow my online business using only today's best internet sales funnels.   My name is Steve Larsen, and welcome to Sales Funnel Radio. What's going on, everyone?   Hey, it's Steve Larsen, and I'm really excited to have you here today.   Stephen: I have someone that I've been trying to get on the podcast for a very long time - because I just think the world of her. It's been super amazing to get to know this person. Anyways, I'm excited about it.   The first time that I got to hear this story,  it was heart-wrenching for me to see, not just everything that had happened, but the inspiration that it's causing in other people's lives.   The way it's changing other people's lives is a huge deal.   It was fascinating for me to see that this is real, you know, this is a big deal.   I already knew that, but just to continue to watch it in application... I was like, "Gosh, the thousands and thousands and thousands of lives that it's changed."   It's my incredible honor and privilege to have you on the show. Guys, I wanna welcome Natalie Hodson. How are you doing?   Natalie - Hey, thank you so much, Stephen. That was an amazing intro.   Stephen - I mean it.   Natalie -  I'm so excited to be here too. I've watched your stuff, and I've binge listened to all your podcasts. Your advice has helped me so much, so it's like a win-win. I'm excited - you're excited. It's awesome.   Stephen - Oh, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.  I know a lot of people may not know about you yet, and frankly, it's just a matter of time... I think everyone's gonna know who you are.   Natalie - Aw, thank you.   Stephen - Could you tell us a little bit about your story, and kind of the background, 'cause it's inspiring, and...   Natalie - Yeah.   Stephen - There's obviously funnels in there, but that's a vehicle for this whole thing. You're changing people's lives, and I'd love you to grace my audience with that... that'd be great.   Natalie - Totally. Well, there's a long version and a short version. I'll try to keep it towards the short version, but I tend to be long-winded.   So at any point, if you're like, "Natalie, take it this direction," you know...   Stephen - We have happy ears.   Natalie - So I'm in the fitness space. But I always say that I accidentally fell into the fitness industry because I was a history major in school. I didn't know:   #1: That there even was a fitness industry   #2: That I ever wanted to be a part of it.   After I had my son, I gained 70 pounds when I was pregnant with him. I was like big, out here. He was a 10-pound baby.   Stephen - 70 pounds?   Natalie - Yeah, I was really big. And after I had him, I remember feeling lost. I remember looking in the mirror and feeling like, "I don't even recognize myself... I just wanted to feel like myself again," and it wasn't even so much about the weight. I just didn't feel like me.   So I started a blog, and honestly, it was like an online journal - just as a way to keep me accountable for my fitness stuff.   I didn't tell a single person that I knew in real life, because I was embarrassed.  I didn't want the people I knew to know what I was struggling.   This was when Pinterest very first got started, about eight years ago.  I just started sharing...   I like to cook, so I started sharing healthy recipes, and I started putting them on Pinterest.   And honestly, if you look at my first pins back then, they were taken with a flip phone, just awful photos, but luckily for me, now people are taking gorgeous pictures for me.   So I started to get a lot of traffic to my website.   Stephen - You were just kinda documenting what you were doing?   Natalie - I was just documenting what I was doing and sharing.   This was right when Facebook groups weren't even a thing, and I started a Facebook group with this training program I was doing. I started sharing my ups and my downs, just because I felt like it was a safe space.   I was really vulnerable and telling, you know, my struggles; like I got called out of the gym daycare again - just like real struggles, you know?   I was struggling with all this stuff. And so, I did that 12-week program, and had awesome results, and got some recognition from bodybuilding.com.   I was getting a lot of traffic to my site. So I was like, man, if I'm getting traffic, I might as well monetize it. So I got certified as a personal trainer and started writing - I wrote a couple of ebooks.  I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't how to write an ebook. I just kind of figured it out as I went.   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - And then, I started recognizing, basically, like, long story short, what happened is one day...   I was at an event, and this girl came up to me. And she's like, "I love following your stuff! I could never do what you do, because I have stretched skin after I had my babies, and I could never look like you."   I got really confused in the moment, 'cause I was like, "What are you talking about? I have tons of stretched skin."   And then I started realizing that, I don't share that. I have all these beautiful professional photos where I stand up straight, and I angle myself just right so you can't see it, right?   Stephen - Right, yeah.   Natalie - Posture and perfect looking. I started realizing, like, "Holy crap," in my head, I look down, and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I have stretched skin, whatever," but I wasn't like, showing that to anybody else.   And so, that night, I pulled out my camera, and I filmed this video,  just saying to people, "Look, I recognize that I've never shown you... this is what that looks like."   People talk about that a lot, but this was six years ago, and really, nobody was talking about it.   I remember the first time I posted that video, my hand was shaking. I thought I was gonna lose every follower I had. But I was like, "I know that if I'm struggling with this, other people are too."   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - And I posted it, and I shut my computer down. I wouldn't look at it, 'cause I was like, "everybody's gonna hate this."   When I opened it up an hour later, there were just thousands of comments, and that video went kind of viral.   Then I started realizing that the more I talked about things that felt scary or uncomfortable, it was actually more of like a magnet. People started to feel like, "Whoa, she gets me. Whoa, she's talking about things that I think in my head, but nobody's really talking about."   And then what happened is it started to  heal broken parts of me too - because I started to realize that those fears and insecurities weren't even real. It was just the story that I was telling myself.   So the more I talked about my story, the less power it had over me.   And so, total side note here, fast forward to right now... 'cause this was years ago... but I feel like I worked through all that body image stuff kind of on accident.   Stephen - Sure.   Natalie - I was being vulnerable, and it's crazy, 'cause right now, I'm going through a very similar process. I'm trying to do a lot of self-work. Learning to be perfectly imperfect with the body stuff - I feel like I did that, and I'm okay with it.   Stephen - “Perfectly imperfect” - that's cool.   Natalie - Yeah, and now it's like, "Okay, how can I...?" I've always struggled with this idea of perfection, and now with relationships, I'm trying to recognize that it's okay to not be perfect in relationships. That when you work through the hard stuff, when you talk about the hard stuff, it actually...   So anyways, I'll turn back now. I skipped a big chunk in there, but...   Stephen - No, that's fascinating what you just said... We will come back to that.   Natalie - Okay.   Stephen - Keep going, 'cause there's this whole spot... I'm like, "This is so cool."   Natalie -  I might not have the right words for it, because I'm just starting to figure it out. It's what I was talking to my friend Yara about last night.   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - So, anyways, I built this big audience, all organically. I had about 400,000 followers, but I wasn't really monetizing it.   I was selling ebooks and making decent, good money, probably  around six figures as a stay at home mom - so it was good. Like, it was awesome, and I was enjoying it. I was writing.   And then I went through a divorce. And then it got really scary, because I was like, "All right, I don't have child support, I don't have alimony.  I have to figure this out."   Stephen - Right.   Natalie - And it just so happened... like, you know, I swear, a lot of times, things fall in place when they're supposed to, or you meet people when you're supposed to.   Stephen - Right.   Natalie - It just so happened that... I don't know actually what happened. I don't know if my name got thrown around in a mastermind or something, but all of a sudden, I got emails or phone calls from eight different people wanting to build a funnel for me in ClickFunnels, and all this stuff.   I was like, "What? what is a funnel? What is this?" And so, I started researching and googling, and I kept seeing this name, Russell Brunson.   It's so embarrassing now 'cause I know what a good, honest, genuine hard-working guy Russell is... but honestly, at first, I was like, "Is this a scam? Why are people promising me the world, and like telling me they can..."   Usually, if somebody tells you something that's too good to be true - it is, right?     ...And they're like, "With that audience, you can make all this money." And I was so skeptical.   But the embarrassing part is, Russell wrestled in college with my cousin, and we live like just right down the street from each other. So we had all these mutual friends.   Stephen - Right.   Natalie - I messaged him on Facebook, and basically just... I mean, I didn't say, "Is your company a scam?"... but that's basically... I mean it was rude!   And now that I know who Russell is, I'm like so embarrassed, and I'm so grateful he didn't just say, "See ya, I'm never talking to you again."   So I started finding out about ClickFunnels, and then I read his DotCom Secrets book, and I was like, "What?"   'Cause  I'd built this big audience, but never in my life had I even spent a dime on Facebook ads.   So, I started reading his book, and I was like, "What? These are real secrets. Why is he sharing this?"   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - Look, this is my original notepad.   Stephen - What?   Natalie - That's crazy. I was organizing my office, and it happened to be sitting here.   So what I did, this was cool. I pulled out this notepad, and as I went through the book, I started saying, "How can I apply that to my business?" Like, five variables of successful campaigns:   Step one, who are your competitors? And I started writing down who are my actual competitors? This is cool. Blast from the past.   Stephen - That's so cool. I just found mine the other day.   Natalie - No way!   Stephen - Yeah, it's just right over here - the exact same thing. I was just showing it to somebody else. But, yeah, I found mine. It's like going way back.  "I remember the first time I realized this!" This is a huge deal.   Natalie -  I was mind-blown, and I was like, "What?" And so, I started implementing it, and I was like, "This works!"   I brought somebody on to help me with building the funnel at the beginning. Now we've since split ways...   So we launched the funnel. So, okay,  this story's getting very long, so we'll wrap it up, but...   Stephen - No, it's awesome. Super valuable.   Natalie - Okay, so, basically, at that point, I was like, "Hey, my back's against the wall. I need to figure out, how am I gonna monetize what I have here?"   So what I did was, I looked at my Google Analytics on my website.  I was like, my audience is telling me what they're interested in through my analytics, right? So, I took my five most popular blog posts, and I said, okay, I'm gonna make an offer around each of these.   Stephen - Wow.   Natalie - So the first one was this weird word called Diastasis Recti. Which is basically ab separation.   When you're pregnant, your abs can separate to make room for the baby, and in about two-thirds of women, they don't always come back together the right way. So it can cause you to look pregnant, even if you're eating right or exercising. It can cause you to have like just core weakness.   The other post was this thing called Pelvic Floor Dysfunction, which in layman's terms means like, if you laugh, cough, sneeze, jump on a trampoline, exercise too hard, a lot of times, women, after they have babies, will pee their pants a little bit.   Stephen - Right.   Natalie - And so it just so happened that one of my good friends from college had just gotten her Ph.D. in this specific area.   So, I reached out to her, and I was like, "Hey, Monique, I am getting a massive amount of traffic to this blog post. Do you think we could do something together?"   And that's when she told me. She's like, "Oh my gosh, Natalie, the peeing your pants stuff doesn't have to happen! Just 'cause it's common, and happens to so many women it doesn't mean that it's normal or healthy. It can be improved."   And I was really skeptical again at first. I was like, "Yeah, right!" I was like, "Yeah, I've had two 10-pound babies." I got kind of defensive.   Stephen - Your kids were 10 pounds?   Natalie - Yeah, both of 'em. Isn't that crazy?   Stephen - Oh my gosh. Our first two were five and a half.   Natalie - Oh, wow.   Stephen - We have little kids.   Natalie - Yeah, and I had 'em at home too, with midwives, yeah.   Stephen - Oh my gosh.   Natalie - It was crazy. So crazy.   Stephen - Amazing.   Natalie - So, long story short, last year, it was November of last year,  I talked to her. It was that first conversation. And it's funny, 'cause we have the Facebook messages still with the date.   And I said, "Hey, do you think we can write a program helping women?"   Because she put me through a program, and it totally worked.  I knew that if I'm struggling with this, other women must be too.     We started talking about it on Thanksgiving. We began writing it at Christmas. We launched on January 31st.   It was like, a month, a month, a month.   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - And we launched it through ClickFunnels, and within four months, we'd sold a million dollars of this $37 ebook.   Stephen - Do the math on that, people.   Natalie - Yeah.   Stephen - How many people? That's crazy.   Natalie - Yeah, it was really crazy. We don't sell the physical version, but this is the physical version, and it's just an ebook. I mean, there's nothing super fancy about it. It's kind of text, parts of it are kind of textbooky.   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - I partnered with the doctor to write that. I'm glad I did because she has the credibility, and I have the connection, so it's kind of like a one-two punch.   Stephen - I love that, yeah.   Natalie - I don't think I could have created that program 100% on my own, because when you're talking about the body and anatomy - there are so many things that I wasn't qualified to talk about, but anyways.   So then, it was this whirlwind of like, "Holy crap." Before this, it was just me in front of my computer answering emails.   Then all of a sudden, it's like, "whoa," we have this big company and this big machine, and I need to learn how to hire people and scale and be a CEO of a company instead of just like, a little solopreneur.   Last year was a real whirlwind of a year. I had to learn how to be tough with business. I had to learn the value and the importance of contracts and of not let people take advantage of you.   I had to grow and scale - and create value. I mean, just everything was...   Conceptually, I knew what I needed to do, but applying it was kind of a whirlwind.   I still feel like we're still... we'll always be working on our businesses, but...   So, that was the world's longest answer to "How you got started," but that's how I got involved in the ClickFunnels community.   The one thing I will say is; if anybody is watching this and is skeptical, "I understand," 'cause I felt the exact same way.   But if you just do what Stephen teaches, what Russell teaches it works. It really, really works! It's not scammy.   If you have a good product and a good message to give to the world, follow the system and don't try to change it, and it will work. That's all I did.   I didn't do anything fancy, other than I came up with the idea and the program...  I just did what you guys say to do, and it worked.   Stephen - That's so cool. That's so awesome.   Natalie - Yeah.   Stephen - That's so awesome. Yeah, sometimes people look at it. I had a buddy who looked at it once, and he's like, "That looks like it's scammy," - you know, the same kind of thing. I'm like, "Ah, no, we actually end up delivering more value than if you don't do it this way."   Natalie - Yes, 100% agreed.   Stephen - Fascinating.   Natalie - Yeah.   Stephen - You gave a speech at Funnel Hacking Live which was incredible.  I was so excited. I think we were sitting in the front row, or something like that, I was pumped.   I was like, "Yeah, Natalie's next!" You gave a speech about vulnerability. And you talked about some of the ways you build in vulnerability - and this isn't a weakness.   Natalie - Yeah.   Stephen - Right, but how do you find the strength to be vulnerable?   I guess, first of all, can you tell us what it means to be vulnerable?   You're such an... I don't know if you wanna call it vulnerability secrets, vulnerability expert, or hacks? Whatever, like, but you're really good at doing this in a way that doesn't come across, you know...   It seems like most people are like, "I'm not gonna be vulnerable 'cause it means I'm weak."   Natalie - No, it's not.  I get that, 'cause I felt that way for a long, long time.   So first off, I think a lot of times, especially if you're talking to guys, they will hear the word vulnerable, and they'll be like, "I'm a man. I am not vulnerable," right? And I get that.   So, another way of saying "be vulnerable" is just "be real," right?   Look at Russell. He shares the ups and the downs, and because he shares the downs, you wanna champion and root for him on the ups.   If somebody only shares the good times, then you don't connect as much.   It's almost like we naturally, as humans, have a tendency to...   If you think somebody is only always doing good, it's harder to wanna cheer for them and root for them, you know?   Stephen - "Yeah, the cards are always in that guy's favor... are you kidding?"   Natalie - Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, when it comes to being vulnerable, it's not about crying all the time, and it's not even about being vulnerable all the time.   If you look at my content, 80 to 90% of it is just really good quality content, and then occasionally, I'll add some real honest truth or raw moments into what I share. And what it does is it brings, this isn't my phrase... it from an author named Brene Brown, her books changed my life.   *Natalie looks for books* I don't have them here, but "Daring Greatly" and "Rising Strong" literally, personally and professionally, changed my life.   Brenee is a shame and vulnerability researcher. She teaches that vulnerability is the ultimate human connector because vulnerability and shame cannot survive together.   And so the more vulnerable you are, the less shame can survive, and the less power that story has over you.   And so, you know, we all have moments that we feel embarrassed to talk about, or we think that people will judge us, or we feel ashamed, and what's crazy.   I've found that the more you talk about the hard stuff:   #1: The less shame you feel talking about it, and you start to feel more comfortable with it   #2: People start to open up to you and say, "oh my gosh, me too. I didn't think anybody experienced that."   And so what happens is it creates a different level of trust with your audience.   However, there's a fine line between being vulnerable to get sales and actually being vulnerable, right? That's kind of hard to teach. And so, you know, I didn't start this off saying, "I'm gonna be vulnerable so I can build a big audience and make all this money."   I genuinely have a heart to help people, and selfishly, it helped me along the way, too, because it made me feel less insecure about these things.   People always say, "Okay I get it in theory, it makes sense to be vulnerable, but how do you actually do that without coming across as that crazy person on Facebook that puts all their drama there?"   Stephen - Always crying, the person like, "Oh, crap, unfollow."   Natalie - Yeah, and you're just like, Where's the popcorn. Let's watch their drama unfold." And so I kind of have this four-step system that I didn't mean to create. It's just how I naturally write, but it works really well.   The first thing that I do is #1, remember that you don't always have to share your vulnerable moments in the moment.   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - So, if you haven't worked through something and you're still feeling very fragile about it - it's okay to wait to share. Because, I've made that mistake before.   If you get criticism back and you haven't really worked through it yet, that criticism can be shattering to your confidence.   And so, one of the tricks that I have...   For a long time, I struggled, 'cause when you're going through the vulnerable stage when you're really sad or excited or happy or embarrassed or feeling ashamed when you're in the moment, the feelings feel very real...   But sometimes it's hard to sit in front of your computer later and remember the real emotion that you felt during that moment.   So one of the things that I do now, a trick that I have, is I'll pull out my phone and pull up the notes section when I'm in that moment feeling, you know, small or hurt or scared or whatever the feeling is, right? It can be good or bad.   And I'll just shorthand write out the raw feelings. Not like full paragraphs, but, now I have this big catalog of feelings, so if I want to tell a story that relates to this, that relates to body image, or that relates to whatever,  I have all these raw emotions to draw on.   I'm not faking vulnerability. It's my real stuff.  It's my real moments that I can draw from and turn into actual stories.   Another tip: A little family joke is that I'm really bad at analogies, and my family calls them "Natalogies" because a lot of times, like, you know...   The whole crux of expert secrets, is you have to be able to do epiphany bridges and analogies. And my analogies do not make sense half of the time.   I'll say them, and people are like, "that didn't make sense?" I'm just not good at them.   I hope someday, I can learn to be better at analogies. So what I try to do instead is just pull on these stories that I have - and kind of weave it together instead - 'cause my "it's kind of likes" never actually make sense.   So that's like my trick, you know how Russell talks about in the soap opera sequences, to start with the drama - to start with the most dramatic point, and then you tell the back story...   In my posts, a lot of times, I do that.   I start with like the hurt, the pain. Whatever you're feeling, the run moment, start with that, 'cause then people will automatically be like, "Whoa. She's talking about something nobody talks about."   And then what I do is I, and this is just my style. Everybody will find their own style.   But my step number two is to show myself some grace. Remind myself "perfectly imperfect, it's okay," or,  just show yourself some grace, and in some words, type that out.   Then the third step is to try to remind myself of a time when this has happened before and I worked through it -  or when somebody else has gone through something like this and worked through it.   Stephen - Right.   Natalie - And then the fourth step is; I always finish up on a positive note.   So like, either how I worked through it - if this is a past experience, or if I don't know how to work through it, I share what my plan is to try to work through it, even if you fail trying, right?   So what it does is it puts people, like, when you're, when you start with the raw stuff, it makes people feel like, “whoa, like, that could be me, because I've felt that exact same way.”   And then you're giving yourself grace, and you're teaching other people how to show, how to give themselves grace if they're in the same shoes, and then when you talk about how you work through it.   It's like, somebody else could look at you, look at your situation and say, “Whoa, I'm in that situation too, and if she can work through it, I probably can, too.”   And so, I think that's why a lot of my content has gone really viral, is because I make it relatable by sharing, it's not fake. I mean, they're the real moments, and then I come up with like a positive, and it's not.   Stephen - End with hope at the end.   Natalie - It ends with hope, yeah, but it's not like, talking down to somebody.   It's not like, you have to do x, y, and z, or I'm so perfect on my high horse here.   It's more like, we're in this together. We're all in the arena, and we've all fallen down. Let's dust off our knees, and this is how I'm gonna try to stand up. I might get knocked back again, but like, this is what I'm trying.   I don't know if that makes sense at all, but I think that's why... there's an underlying subtleness of talking down to somebody or being on the same playing field and championing everybody to come up together.   I don't know if I have the language to always describe how I do it, but that's kind of the feeling behind it.   I have written and deleted and written and deleted, 'cause I'm like,“This feels like I know everything,” or you know, I'm like talking down, and I never want that to come across that way.   Stephen - Right. Absolutely, and you know, you know what it reminded me of is so like, you know, we always tell people, like, start publishing before you have a big following.   Natalie - Mmhmm.   Stephen - So that you can bring them with you and you become the expert in front of them.   Natalie - Exactly.   Stephen - Rather than become an expert and then start publishing, 'cause it's so less believable.   You've done the same thing with the vulnerability, which is fascinating. Like, yes, start it. Don't be afraid to talk about the low moments, not that it always needs to be low, and it probably shouldn't always be, but you know...   Natalie - Totally.   Stephen - But being open about what's actually going on and doing it in front of 'em rises everyone together. That's fascinating.   Natalie - Well, and what's crazy is that it never gets... well, it's always a process, right?   So, what's weird is that eight years ago, for me to talk about the body image stuff, it was so hard for me, 'cause that's where I was. I was in that phase of my life where I was really struggling with that, right?   And so, I did the work, and I went through the process unintentionally.   I didn't know I was doing the work at the time. I was just being vulnerable. I was sharing.   So what's cool is that, fast forward to now, I don't really have all of those body image insecurities that I had then, and I think it's honestly because I was willing to talk about it in the moment.   Now, fast forward to today, and the issues that I'm struggling with are different.   I'm a different person than I was eight years ago, right?   So when I built my audience with talking about the body image stuff, now, it's like, "okay, I don't feel like I have to talk about that as much, 'cause I've not grown past it," - that's not the right word, but  it's not my main focus anymore. And now it's...   Like, okay, you know, I went through a divorce, and I haven't really talked about that very much publicly.   But now it's like, "Okay, now I'm sitting in this moment where  I'm at a crossroads." Am I gonna do what has worked for me in the past and be vulnerable and open up and share these things that feel uncomfortable to me again, right?   It's not the body image stuff anymore. Now it's personal development and relationships and the struggles that I've had with my business.   Like, it's always changing.   So vulnerability is never like, you just learn how to be vulnerable and you've got it. Like, it's always easy.   It is easier for me to be vulnerable on the body image stuff, but now it's shifted to "how can I grow?"   And the only hope I have is that I know that it worked with the body stuff. So  I'm hoping that five years down the road, I can look back and say, "Okay, I was scared to be vulnerable.  I was scared to talk about these things, but it got me into this confident, comfortable zone because I shared."   Stephen - No, totally, totally. Like, I went through a lot of the exact same, you know, it's funny because I feel like it's the emotion that binds people.   While I haven't gone through a divorce, there are other times where I felt really vulnerable as well. And so whilst that person may not have gone through a divorce, if we didn't have the same experiences, we did have the same emotions, and being able to expose the emotion, I feel like, is what binds people. I think it's interesting what you said.   Anyway, quirks, the little quirks that you have or the little vulnerabilities you have, that's your superpower. That's the reason people follow you. They don't follow you because of pure perfection 24/7. That actually annoys people after a while. But you actually get personal healing along the way. Like that's so, that's so amazing.   Could you tell us a little bit... I mean, this is Sales Funnel Radio, and you're talking about your sales funnel. Like, what does this have to do with sales funnels? Why does it matter? 'Cause it totally does, but just for everyone else, you know.   Natalie - Well, it 100% matters because the thing that I've learned is although I'm not the best trainer in the world. Like, I will be the first to admit that. Yes, I'm a personal trainer, but like, people don't buy my programs because....   I mean there are probably people that can talk science better than I can. I stumble over my words. I have mild dyslexia, and I mix up scientific terms all the time. But the reason people follow me and the reason people buy my programs, the reason we were able to sell so many of this book, is because of the connection.   I owned a company called Dollar Workout Club a couple of years ago, and we would film our workouts, and we never cut the cameras. And we would always be joking and be like, "guys, if you're at home you can relate to the doorbell ringing or whatever, right?" And it was very relatable.   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - Well, in one of the workouts, I happened to be wearing gray shorts, and Drew, the only guy, the other trainer, wrote the workout, and it was all jumping exercises, right?   So, we're doing the jumping, and I'm like, "Oh, crap." I could tell I was like, peeing my pants a little bit, right?   It was so embarrassing.  I'm wearing gray shorts and you can see this little tiny spot, then by the end, my whole butt was just... it was so gross. It's just covered in pee. At the end, I'm trying to stretch and turn sideways so you can't see.   Anyways, I could have never shared that, and I didn't for a while. I was really embarrassed about it. But we have that footage. So then when I went to go create this program, I could take screenshots from that video. I could take the actual video and put it in my funnel.   So what happened is people were like, "Whoa, this woman actually peed her pants." Like, this is embarrassing. I mean, truth be told, this program almost didn't come out, 'cause I had to have a heart-to-heart with myself really, and say, "okay, Natalie, are you willing to tell the whole world that you used to pee your pants," you know?   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - But what happens is then you can put those real stories in your funnel. You can put the photos. And it's kind of like instead of social proof this is your real story and your real-life proof.   "Whoa, this woman understands me and this woman gets me." Because the truth is that real change, like, I can give you the best meal plan and the best workout program in the whole world, but it's not gonna have a lasting, long-term effect until you make that internal change and have that belief in yourself.   I feel like that is my gift, is helping people see their value and their power. And so, you know...   Stephen - People kind of have an identity shift with the vulnerability that you have, almost. That's fascinating.   Natalie - 100%. And so that's the psychology behind it.  I think that when you are willing to be real vulnerable, not fake vulnerable... If you're willing to be real vulnerable, people can relate to that. And once people relate to it, they begin to trust you, and then once they trust you, they'll buy from you.   My biggest fear is that when people listen to me talk about this, they're gonna be like, "Oh, I see dollar signs. I'm just gonna like, figure out how I can be vulnerable." But the truth is, people are smart. Your customers are smart, and they will smell out fake vulnerability.   Stephen - Right.   Natalie - And so.   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - The biggest thing... If you're sitting there and you're thinking, "There's no way I could ever talk about this," then you're on the right path. That's how you know it's real vulnerability.   If you seriously feel nervous to share it and talk about it, and you think: “Everybody will think I'm a fraud. Everybody will think I'm a bad parent." Everybody will think I'm a bad husband or wife. Nobody's gonna find me attractive."   All of these things, these stories that we tell ourselves that you feel if you start talking about, people are gonna think you're terrible... Guess what? That's the real good stuff that you need to be talking about and sharing if you wanna create real connection and live a wholehearted life.   Stephen - Totally believe that yeah. 'Cause I struggled. Anyway, when you got up, and you were speaking about that on stage, I was like, "Man, I know, I feel ya, holy crap."   I had like, zero confidence. So rather than choose not to be active and do this game, I just called out my fear publicly, and that became a theme for a little bit.   It was like, "Look, guys, I don't really wanna be doing this, although I got something cool to show you, all right?"   And for a while, that was the theme of it. And then as I grew up and healed, (I like how you said that) I passed certain things in front of the audience.   Then it was like, "Whoa, I've gotta wait for this new episode," or "what's he doing now?" And it was crazy, crazy. That was worth more than me putting hundreds of episodes out of just the best content ever.   Natalie - Yeah.   Stephen - It was crazy, crazy what that did.   So, what would you say is, like...   So you tell people, go ahead and start recording down things that are going on in the moment. Don't feel the pressure to go ahead and say it in the moment, which I totally agree with. I don't know if I can handle that.   Natalie - Well, and it can be whatever platform you like the most, right? Mine happened to be Facebook, but some people are better at YouTube, or some people are better at podcasting or Instagram.   There's not one that's better or worse. Just find what feels the easiest for you and start there.   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - I will say too...   So, one of the downsides of being vulnerable is, and I don't let this scare you from being vulnerable, but it does happen. It still happens to me.   So when you're open and transparent about your life, for some reason, and I get it. We're that way with celebrities, right?   You're like, "I wanna know why they broke up." And both sides of the story; people feel like they know every aspect of your life. And I do share a lot, but I don't share everything.   And so what can happen is that you get harsh people on the internet. And we all get that anyways. Even just last night.   I get mean from people messages every day pretty much.   Luckily, I have my team now to kind of shield me from it, just 'cause it's like silly.   Stephen - I have to do the same, yeah.   Natalie - Yeah, just 'cause it's hard for me to continue to be vulnerable if I'm always reading the negative messages.   Stephen - Yeah, I'm the same.   Natalie - But one woman was like, "You are so different from how you used to be. You used to share your progress photos, and now you just talk about your life."   The truth is, we all change and grow as people, right? And so for me, posting an ab selfie now, I don't get validation or fulfillment. I don't need that like I did six years ago. So, yeah, if you look at my feed, I don't post as much like, like, body image stuff, because I'm kind of like in a different space.   And so what will happen is that as you're transparently sharing what you're focused on in your life, sometimes, you will get people that you don't attract anymore.   Like, they're still in a different area, and they want to follow people that are in that area, and that's okay.   What I've had to learn is that the number-one thing when you get mean people on the internet, and it took me a long time to figure this out, is that it's so much more about them and what they're personally struggling with than it is about you, you know?   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - Okay, so, for example, my peach tree. So we had a big wind storm. I'm sure you saw it 'cause we live in the same town.   So, this tree that I've nurtured for two years, finally had some fruit coming off of it, well the storm completely broke the tree, and I was really sad. I posted about it on my Insta Story, and she wrote back, and she was calling me all these mean names, and she's like, "To think that your biggest worry right now is that your peach tree died. My mom just died, and my brother is sick."     And I realize she's hurting because of that, and she's lashing out at me, right?   So it's a reflection of her. It's not a reflection of me. And so that was the hardest thing I had to learn, being open and vulnerable in the online space, is that you will get critics.   I always say it's like the people in the peanut gallery out there who aren't, like...   I'll listen to criticism from people who are in the arena with me, right, people who are battling and fighting and trying and working hard, but if it's just a critic out in the peanut gallery that isn't there fighting along with me, then their opinion doesn't matter.   It's probably more about them than me.   Stephen - You're better than I am, then. There are times I just, I don't know.   Natalie - Well, I did block her.   Stephen - I like to fight with 'em sometimes. And I shouldn't, and I'm growing past that, and there's me being vulnerable. I like to stir the pot sometimes when it's already brewing.   Natalie - You should talk about that, Stephen. So you should talk about it-  not just like the fun, "I said this, and he said that" but the real issues, "why did that trigger you?" And what's the story behind that insecurity?   Those are the things that people love. Not just the story, but going deeper into the feeling or the "why" behind it - you know?   Stephen - Yeah.   Natalie - I don't know.   Stephen - I told you, yeah, some of it's going on right now still with some other people. Like, it comes in waves. I don't know if that happens for you too.   Natalie - Yes.   Stephen - It's like the criticism goes down, whoa, and then it goes away, and you're like, everything rocks, and then you try something big again, and everyone's like, "whoa!" Not everyone, but there's like, anyway, the talking heads, as I call them, come on out. It's the armchair quarterbacks.   Natalie - Uh-huh, 100%.   Stephen - Yeah, I told you, and I've been planning on doing that. Funny you say that. I just haven't quite formulated how to do it yet, so.   Natalie - Yeah.   Stephen - It's top of mind.   I wanna thank you for being on here with everyone, and guys, Sales Funnel Radio, we're talking about vulnerability.   This is everything, especially if you are the attractive character in your own business - which I hope that you are, and you choose to be.   This is not a tiny subject. It's something that you will not have the choice to go around. You will address it whether it's through haters or your own personal growth. You're gonna get it.   So, please, please go follow Natalie. Natalie, where should people go to follow you?   Natalie - My website is nataliehodson.com, or Facebook is Natalie Hodson Official. Instagram is nataliehodson1   Stephen - Cool.   Natalie - If anybody has any questions, you know, you can leave 'em, and I'll keep checking 'em. I'll answer them and stuff.   The books that I talked about are Brene Brown's Daring Greatly and Rising Strong.  I think they're books every single human being on this planet should listen to.   I call the books magic, 'cause I've listened to them probably six times now, and every time, I need to hear a different piece. I gain something different from them every time, you know? They're good books.   Stephen - I wrote it down. I'm excited. I'm gonna go get them right after this.   Natalie - Cool.   Stephen - That's awesome. Everyone, guys, thank you so much.   Please reach out to Natalie and say thank you and go follow her, and watch her practice what she preaches on this stuff. It's fantastic and amazing - and that lets her audience open up as well.   So Natalie, thank you so much for being on, and it's been a pleasure.   Natalie - Yeah, you're so welcome.   Stephen - Woohoo, hey, thanks for listening.   Hey, many don't know that I actually made my first money online as an affiliate marketer.   If you wanna know how I funded my entire company without using any of my own money ever, you can learn to do the same for free at affiliateoutrage.com.

There comes a time when you say, "Right. Out!" And that's what happened. I think we all have too much stuff these days." Those were wise words from my Mum, who I decided to bring on for Season 1 Episode 8 of Quest for Freedom. This topic and this podcast today is all about ... The art of minimalism and freeing yourself from stuff. If there's one person who knows how to do that, it's this girl. I think it's a really important topic because whenever I am offloading stuff out of my suitcase, in my life I feel so much freer. I feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Which brings me to Christmas time last year, when I gave my sister and my brother-in-law the Christmas present of my time. And what I said I'd do for them is help them clear out their garage. Now I have to say the garage was a complete and utter mess. There was so little room in there, there certainly were no cars, there was just all their stuff. Now my brother-in-law Zanda, has 3 kids from a previous marriage and now they have my lovely nephew, Morgan and so as a family you do absolutely need more stuff. I can't take that away from them. I know I see friends with babies and they are like, "Every time I go out I just have to bring all this extra stuff." So I feel for those people. I haven't yet experienced that and I get it. But this garage was a piece of art. There was every single thing in there that you could possibly imagine. So they were thrilled needless to say that this was my Christmas gift to them. So in January we set about decluttering the garage. Debbie, my sister, has been attempting to get Zanda to do this, as ultimately a lot of this was his stuff. I think it's one of those jobs that you can't take on by yourself. You've got to do it as a team. You've got to do it as a family. When we started, I knew that Debs would be okay with being a little bit ruthless with stuff but I wasn't sure about Zanda. And it happened pretty early on. I'm sure he is fine with me telling this story but I was starting to take stuff out of the garage to the car that we were going to put stuff in to get rid of. I checked with Debbie and Zanda if things are okay to move. And then I started moving bits of planks of wood and jib board and Zanda was like, "Hey! Where are you going with that?". And I was like, "I was going to put it in the back of the car to take to the tip." "Yeah but I am going to make something out of that" and I was like, "Oh okay. What were you going to make?" "I might be doing one of the cupboards for downstairs, like using it to make a perfect cupboard door piece." And I was like, "Okay. Well, let me just ask you a question. How long have you had this piece of wood? "Uh, about 4 years" says Zanda. "Okay and so when were you planning on doing this?" "Well, yeah.." And just in that moment there was this beautiful moment of realization or recognition in his eyes that he was in fact being a hoarder, and I wouldn't say the top definition of a hoarder, because even though I do not watch TV, I've seen the ads for the TV series on hoarders. You can't even get in the door of the house. They live on piles of junk and rubbish ...but that's definitely not where Debs and Zanda are at. Many of us have a hoarding mentality. It really comes from just not wanting to let go of things that could be precious, that could be valuable, that you might do something with in the future. But let me just push back at you, if you are one of those people going, "Yeah Natalie. Some things you just want to hold onto." Unless you are going to use that thing within the next 3-6 months, why on earth would you store it, keep it and have it cluttering up your personal space? Why on earth would you keep something that you are not going to use and serves no purpose other than creating clutter in your living space? So...back to that moment - a pretty great thing that happened, in that amazingly Zanda kind of turned completely around and started being really ruthless with stuff. So there was an initial push back and hesitation and a real desire not to let go, but once he realized what he'd been holding onto he actually got into it and as the day progressed, we spent a good couple of hours in this garage. He was throwing stuff in the back of the car and I was putting stuff off the side and he says, "Nope, that can go." And it was so liberating. We then went down to the tip and what was even more liberating. As you drive your car up and the trailer as well, then you get to chuck stuff off the side into this sort of pit thing, and then they either sort it, recycle it or take it away to go into the mound of dirt and create a big rubbish heap on some poor hill. But, still it was really liberating. We also took stuff down to be recycled and you get some money for that and it was crazy actually how good that felt. And we went back and we did another load and slowly but surely this garage started to emerge, corners of space started to emerge. Now here is the funny thing, that was one Sunday afternoon and then I believe I came back a couple of weekends later because, it's a bit hard to tie in with the family and things going on and it already had started accumulating stuff. But all of the stuff was things that they had now sorted out in the house that they were going to take to the Salvation Army or they were going to put on TradeMe, which is the New Zealand equivalent of Ebay or GumTree. And so the cool thing is that they kept at it. They didn't just stop there with the momentum and motivation I provided them with. They kept on going and they made several hundred dollars if not thousands of dollars selling on Trademe some of their stuff. A lot of that stuff was children's stuff that wasn't needed anymore or baby stuff that could go to another deserving family. And all it took was to start taking the photos, documenting and putting up the price and description on TradeMe. Turned out Zanda had a bit of a knack for selling things. So it was excellent. Now the cool thing was not only were they decluttering and getting a greater sense of freedom and space in the house, they were also making money. And let's face it, everybody likes to make money. So this was brilliant for them. Now right about the same time, and this is why I find the start of 2017 kind of fantastic and it's been one of the best years yet. But in terms of a time of change, it was for the entire Sisson family and the Rock-Evans family, which is now my sister's side - it was one of those times of just everybody kind of decluttering. So as my sister and Zanda were attempting to get things out of the garage and out of their house, Mum was attempting to downside the four bedroom family home that her and Dad had been in for fifteen years, because she was getting ready to sell. Dad passed away in December of 2015 and Mum just did not need to be living in a big house anymore. And Mum is not a hoarder, in fact, she's amazingly minimalist. She buys quality things and she's done an incredible job over the years for our family of doing up houses beautifully, but always with quality in mind. However, Dad was a bit of a hoarder. So the two rooms or the two spaces in our house that were the most cluttered were Dad's office and the garage. You know a man cave full of stuff! And Dad would, bless his soul, keep even rusty nails in jars. He had a place for everything but it wasn't super organized but he kept everything. And I used to remember as a kid growing up no matter where we lived, Mum would go down to our garage and say, "Oh Peter, could you try and clean up the garage a little bit." It was just incredible he just had so much stuff. I knew that would be hard for Mum to do, so I came over and helped out as much as I could to really go through a lot of stuff - letters, cards, boxes, files from years if not decades, photos, projector slides. All the stuff that you hang onto and you keep because you think one day you are going to pull out the projector and you are going to go through slides from like the 1970s and 80s. For those of you listening you do it, you know it! So I challenge you to get the projector out and have a projector movie night and then either get rid of them all, or get them put onto digital formats so you can have them on your laptop and eventually print them or do whatever you like. But basically out with the old, put it into a format that is accessible at anytime but doesn't take up space and move on. So back to Mum's house, so we have Mum downsizing and generously gifting to my sister and I, things that we would absolutely need such as linen, towels, kitchenware etc. And at this point as you probably know from my Changing Plans episode, Josh and I hadn't actually bought the house yet but we were looking really seriously. Mum was making decisions based on the fact that we might end up with the house rather than both be living in a suitcases. So to her credit she held onto things we may need and she sort of split up a lot of stuff between my sister and I. And what happened is all those stuff that Debbie and Zanda had been clearing out, was now getting filled up with trips from Mum and her house with stuff that she was giving them. Every time they got rid of something, more stuff was coming in. And I felt like it was the same for me. I don't own much stuff but even in my two bedroom apartment in Downtown Wellington, I'd accumulated a little bit of the stuff to have it fully furnished for myself when I rent it out. I also had about four boxes up at my parents. And all those boxes are my everything, my life packed up into four boxes. Or so I thought.... As it happens as Mum is going through more and more of the house and I was there with her, she was like, "Nat I found this box of your clothes or your school gear" and I was like, "Oh damn." "I found your bag of motocross gear" from when I used to race motocross. And I really never want to get rid of my helmet and my motocross pants and shin protectors. And I was like, "Oh damn!" So every time I go to help Mum declutter, I ended up coming home with more stuff, which I would then have to sort through, get rid off, give to the Salvation Army or downsize. I just felt like as a family we were doing this give stuff, receive stuff, get rid of the stuff, sort stuff, sell stuff. It was crazy. I was selling my stuff on TradeMe. I was listing some of Mum's stuff on TradeMe. Zanda was helping out and then there was a big garage sale where Mom made like $850 in half a day and huge. Also she had to downsize her house in three weeks or less once she actually got an offer on it. The power of downsizing and decluttering And here in her own words is kind of this whole process for Mum on really downsizing a lifetime: Natalie: Let's talk about how it felt to downsize and move out of a very large house - four bedrooms and all your and Dad's stuff for the past 13 years. Mom: For the past 47 years. Natalie: That's true because you've been in the house for thirteen years. Mom: Fifteen years actually. Natalie: Oh. I should get my facts right. Mom: Actually, I just felt sick. It's too much. I think the thing nowadays is less... definitely less. But you don't want to throw things away that your children have given you or presents, Christmas, birthday or whatever. But there comes a time when you think, "What am I going to do with this? Where can I put it all?" And I certainly have to downsize to a two bedroom apartment. And I feel I still have a lot but I am keeping the best, the very best... but even then I feel like I don't want it. Natalie: Do you feel lighter now that it's all done because it was quite a process, wasn't it? Mum: Yes. But I could still lose a bit. Natalie: Yes, you've held onto the lovely stuff as you said and a part of that is your identity and what you've had in houses for years. Mum: It's what you worked for. It's what you wanted but even that has changed these days. What we've enjoyed was antiques, crystal, lovely prints of the olden days - that's all gone. People don't even want it. Antique dealers don't even want it anymore. But I think it could all go around in circles again and one day it will. But who wants to keep it for that long? Natalie: Yes exactly. Do you want to talk about how you even started on the process? So obviously you put the house up for sale and then what? Mum: Oh I started way before. I went through wardrobes and drawers. I did a little bit everyday or every second day at least. A lot of it went to Salvation Army and Mary Potter Hospice. There comes a time where you just get rid of it. Natalie: And then when you got the offer on the house, we made it a pretty short turnaround time didn't we because you wanted to be in your new apartment. Mom: Because I was coming over to Bali for your birthday. Natalie: So it was three weeks and so you've done some of that sorting beforehand and then you started downsizing and taking things out of drawers. Mom: And going through linen covers and just knowing I won't need these, you might need it. The other part is that in our days we use to entertain at home. That has changed. We go out into a restaurant nowadays so you have all these lovely dishes that costs some money because you wanted to look good but you don't use either anymore. It just all changed. Natalie: Did you have a process that you were going through? Mom: The thing is we were brought up and we look after our things - clothes, anything. Every time we moved we would take it with us but you didn't wear it or you didn't use it. There comes a time when you say, "Right. Out." And that's what happened. I think we all have too much these days. Natalie: I agree. Mom: I use one dish, one plate, one cereal bowl, one mug at the moment because there's just one. But even if there's two you don't need much. Wise words from my Mum, Gina Sisson. I credit her so much in my life and that I really love being a minimalist. And you know my sister and I differ a little on that. My sister is super creative and so she loves a lot of artwork up on the wall. I think she's got tendencies to be a little bit of a hoarder and she's cool with that. But the point here I guess for every single one of us is every 3 months do a reconnaissance of everything that you own and ask yourself: Do I really need this? Is this better off in somebody else's home or hands? Could I sell this and give it to a more deserving person who needs this right now? One of my best tricks that I've learned is that if you've put something away in storage that you are just not prepared to give up, if you have not gone into that storage locker or that space or whoever you are storing it within 6 months time then you need to get rid of it. Because if you do not miss something and use it every single day it is very likely that you do not need it in your life and it is weighing you down as a sense of stuff. Now one of my good friends, Joshua Becker over at Becoming Minimalist talks a lot about this and here is a short excerpt from a Ted Talk that he did on this very topic as to the benefits of becoming minimalist. “Out of the corner of my eye I see my son swinging alone in the backyard. And suddenly I had this further realization that not only was everything I owned not making me happy, even worse everything I owned was actually taking me away from the very thing that did bring happiness into my life. But not just happiness but fulfillment and purpose and contentment. There's a very different realization and I think it is the very foundation of minimalism - the very foundational truth that would cause anyone to intentionally own less stuff. This reality is that not only are things not making us happy they've actually become such a burden on our lives that they are actually taking us away from the very things that we would prefer to be living our life for." If you'd like to learn more about minimalism, listen to this podcast interview with Joshua Becker about How to Own Less And Live More By Becoming A Minimalist. And the final thing that I am really really weary of is cluttering our new house. Josh and I both made a very conscious effort and packed with each other but we are not going to fill this house with unnecessary stuff. So first off Mum has kindly gifted us all these amazing things including a beautiful old vintage dining room table, a dining room cabinet, a cabinet for the lounge, a king size bed which will be now in our bedroom and some chest of drawers and lamps and some kitchen stuff. All of those things we actually need and that means we don't need to go and purchase them brand new. We can recycle, we can reuse and we can keep these beautiful pieces in the family that have been a part of my life for so long. The next part that we've been doing is I have become a bit of a TradeMe addict and we've set a budget and we've actually listed out on a spreadsheet, because we are geeky like that - all the stuff that we need versus what we'd like in the future. We've listed those out so it's by order of priority and then we've put next to it guesstimates on what we're sort of prepared to pay or budget. So we did a quick look online as to what things are going for and then we put in what we think we'd be prepared to pay. And now we are playing a little game, so I love bargains and I love getting a good deal and I love negotiating. I am setting out to become the TradeMe queen and I am finding incredible things because as you know the saying goes: One person's junk is another person's treasure. And just like we've been doing as a family for the last 2 or 3 months of this year, other people on TradeMe are getting rid of things that they've long held in their family or in their house and finally have just decided to release and let go of. And so I've picked up the best bargains. I got the piano! If you listened to Changing Plans and you heard me talk about the piano that I thought I'd missed out on, would you believe that lady had no luck with the person who bid and won on the auction and beat me in the auction? They flaked on her and so she actually texted me while I was in Bali saying, "I can't believe it's happened again. Is there any chance that you would still like to buy it?" and I said, "Yes!" Done. Put the money in her bank account and she sent me a text saying, "Thank you! You have restored my faith in humans." So I got the piano! And the piano stool and the sheet music for a $150. This beautiful, old, vintage piano which I am going to polish up. I bought an entire bedroom set of furniture granted a little bit retro, like a round mirror, a chest of drawers, another chest of drawers, two bedside table and a headboard for a $100 NZ. Even if it's not great, it's going to be a bargain and I can paint it and we can use it and then we can always resell it. And I'm just honestly having fun. I also bought two single beds including the mattresses, the frames and the bedside tables, pretty funky for like $400. And I just love this because why do we always buy new stuff? I mean granted sometimes you just want new things like you are not going to buy second hand underwear or laundry. I get that but why do we have this incessant need for new? I personally love reusing and recycling. You get some incredible, sturdy, quality crafted pieces of furniture, ornaments if you feel like ornaments, lamps, all sorts of things for so little. Because people don't see the value in them anymore and yet to me they are incredible. I bought a 5 lights with brass stands for $100. I am going to continue to find these amazing bargains and only put things in our house that Josh and I agree on and to add value to it and make it a really beautiful home that we love being in. As the Suitcase Entrepreneur and yes I am still Suitcase Entrepreneur even though I am moving into a house. The Art of Packing Light I just wanted to pass on some packing tips and once again I'd love to bring you back into a short conversation that I had with my lovely Mom who I have to say is an impeccable packer. And I definitely have witnessed her since being a kid packing for our entire family and we used to travel really light considering there were the four of us. She now packs even lighter just for herself. it's quite incredible. Between us, we often look like overachievers. If we ever go on our girls trip together to Melbourne at the start of each year to see the tennis, (it would have been 14 times together or something), we just pack so little. And it never ceases to amaze me at what people pack. Did they fit the kitchen sink inside the suitcase? And if so how do they fit their actual clothes and the things that they really need on the trip. It does really astound me. Here are some tips from the packing queen and her daughter. I credit her for everything that I do when it comes to being a Suitcase Entrepreneur. Natalie: Because I think since I was two years old, you and Dad took my sister and I on around the world tours and trips ,which is amazing, and we no doubt learned from you how to pack really well. And I think people still marvel now when they see how I live out of the suitcase. I know you used to pack for Dad as well. Mum: In one medium suitcase. Natalie: For the both of you? Mum: Yes. And half of that we wouldn't use. And yet even when we had bed and breakfast some people would come with these enormous cases. Each one would have a big case, plus overnight bags and God knows what. And I used to think, "My God. And they are only coming for 2 or 3 weeks, when we would be away for 8 weeks with less." Natalie: So what are your tips for the art of packing light? Mom: For underwear, one clean, one on, one used - that's only three of everything which is easy. Natalie: Really? I actually take 2 weeks worth of underwear because they are quite small and thin. And that means if I can't find a washing machine or do my washing for two weeks, I've always got underwear. Mom: Yes I take a few underpants but for Dad that worked for him. Shoes, a good pair of walking shoes. Something that is comfortable if you go out at night and maybe some sandals depending on the weather where you are going. And if you are travelling to lots of places it doesn't matter whether you wear the same thing every second or third day. People haven't seen it before. I always felt that you take with you your favorite things, that you feel comfortable in and just something good at night like trousers and a shirt but women always seem to have to have more. But even then, just a couple of tops and the rest is just casual. And things are very casual these days aren't day? Natalie: Well, that depends if you are going to a business event or something that's more fancy. Mom: Yes if you are just going on a holiday it is casual. Natalie: And what about toiletries? Mom: Sometimes I think that's all a bit too much but basically again I take what I wear everyday - sun tan lotion and shampoo. Natalie: Suntan lotion is expensive in a lot of countries. I do the same putting everything into small bottles because it can last for weeks. Mom: When I am in England, sometimes I buy the smaller bottles. You don't get it so much in New Zealand or wherever. Natalie: You do now. Anything else in terms of where you pack stuff, because we all have different ways, some people use packing squares. I have a two-sided suitcase so I put my better clothes on my left hand side and my sports care, flip flops and toiletries go on the other side. Mom: Yeah, you've got a good system but I sort of use my suitcase as a drawer. I fold things so neatly and pack it in a way that I remembered Aunty used to say, "Did you just iron that?", I said "No I got it out of my suitcase". Natalie: I definitely didn't pickup on that skill from you. Mom: Yes, actually they were always fascinated with that. It's just my way of packing. Natalie: You also iron your sheets at home. Mom: No I don't, only B&B. Gosh no. Natalie: Well, thank you. Those are the tips from the Suitcase Entrepreneur's mom. So I hope that those tips are helpful to you if you are really having trouble when you are travelling the world and you really just can't pack light. A couple of other tips I'd love to throw in there is put everything that you want to pack into your suitcase or your backpack on the bed before you go. Then once again do one more ruthless run through. So if you've ended up with four black t shirts and three pairs of brown shorts, can you just not take one of each? And if you put five beautiful dresses out and you are only going away for a week, could you not just take three and a shawl so that you can change your look? And then put them into your suitcase or bag and if you find it still too full, take it all out and do the same ruthless routine again. A couple of more tips: You can buy anything you need typically in the place that you are going to. So if you are going to go from a summer environment to a winter environment, I wouldn't necessarily pack all the things that you need for winter. I would buy them in the country that you are in before you go into the other country or have just enough warm layers and as you get there you can stock up on anything you need. The only caveat on that is sunscreen as I mentioned, when I was chatting to Mum, it can be really really expensive in other countries. And obviously alongside that are your pills or your tablets or your supplements, whatever you really truly can't do without that as specialists we need to get from your doctor or maybe a herbalist, I would definitely take those with you. But just take the quantity that you need. So for example, on this trip to Bali I took a couple of supplements and vitamins and I put them all in one supplement container so I don't need to take six or seven containers. And the final tip for me is layers. Layering of your clothes allows you to be warmer because you can just put more and more layers on but it doesn't add huge bulk to your suitcase. I particularly love Kathmandu and IceBreaker products. IceBreaker is Merino wool from New Zealand. It keeps you incredibly warm, wicks away any sweats, dries super quickly and you can wear it for an entire year without washing it and it still wont smell. If you don't believe me, Sir Peter Blake who is unfortunately no longer with us in this world who sailed around the world and set many world records and is q hero in New Zealand, wore his IceBreaker kit on the sailing yacht for a full year and it never smelt and he never had to wash it. If you are really going for a long time travelling or you want lightweight, yet warm and efficient and trendy, IceBreaker all the way. And finally, rolling. There are a lot of people who pack in squares and you can put clothes in them and you can seal them and you can press them down, and you can fit way more in your suitcase, which is great. I've never done it. I've never felt the need to take so many clothes that I have to compress them down. And then also I haven't really felt the desire to unpack and uncompress all these squares but it is handy if you want to maximize your space efficiently. But I love rolling clothes. One, it stops them from creasing and two, it actually does take up less space in your suitcase. So those are my final tips on packing light and the art of minimalism. I would love for you to share what tips you have below the comment section and tell me if you are you a hoarder or a minimalist? Stay tuned for Season 2 either in April or in May. It's not because I don't love you, it's because I am taking a business sabbatical for all of April. This episode is proudly brought to you by Freshbooks. So you’re racing against the clock to wrap up 3 projects, prepping for a meeting later in the afternoon all while trying to tackle a mountain of paperwork. Welcome to life as a freelancer. Challenging? Yes, but our friends at FreshBooks believe the rewards are so worth it. The working world has changed. 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I've only been in Bali five days and I already feel blissed out. I've had four massages, two meditation sessions, one surf lesson, two yoga lessons and a 4.5 hour pampering session! And I TOTALLY needed this, because the last month or two has been pretty cray-cray. As you may remember in my previous episode called Changing Plans, there's been quite a few plans that have been changed, including now owning a lifestyle property and getting a puppy for my birthday. Yes! My lovely man Josh has gone ahead and put a deposit on a white German Shepherd. So when I get back to New Zealand on April 5th, it's going to be all go - moving into the house, getting it furnished, setting up our new base and waiting on the puppy. I was content to go hard out on the organizing, planning, doing and making shit happen on all fronts, because I knew I'd be having this relax time in Bali, and of course my upcoming business sabbatical starting April 1st. If you've never been to Bali, let me just tell you this island has a very special energy to it. It's renowned for being a vortex of feminine energy. So for females in particular, when you're here you have this sense of being grounded, feeling strong, sensual and in your feminine power. Everywhere you look there are lush trees, green rice fields, beautiful flowers, street dogs, friendly Balinese people smiling, scooters whizzing by, yoga studios, cute cafes, healthy juices galore and many relaxed looking foreigners who are whiling their days away doing not a lot of anything much. Which is why Bali is the perfect island to come and unwind, de stress and lose yourself, or find yourself depending on what you're here to do. But obviously we don't all have the opportunity to buggar off to Bali when we feel like it do we? So it got me thinking: Why can't we have a mini vacation each and every day to get some of the same affects of a longer vacation? Why do we have to book in holidays months, and for some people, years in advance? Why all this waiting when we have the power and ability to take a break right now? In a Huffington Post article by Jill Ferguson she lists the benefits of vacations as: Reduces stress - as I can attest to, vacations help shrink stress and anxiety while boosting the mental and physical health of you and the entire family, if you happen to be vacationing with them. Helps your heart stay healthy - no really. In a 20-year study, researchers found that women who took a vacation once every six years or less were almost eight times more likely to develop coronary heart disease or have a heart attack than women who took at least two vacations per year. Improves your mental health (especially if it's longer than 2 weeks) because you're less tense, have higher energy levels and more positive emotions, fewer negative feelings and less depression. Improves your relationships because families or couples who vacation together undergo shared experiences, communication and togetherness, escape and relaxation and experiential learning, all of which contribute positively to well-being and to relationships. You may have heard me talk about taking a mid week weekend. I mean why wait for the weekend to experience one, but what about a daily vacation? That's a novel thought right? I dug into this idea with my dear friend Jaime Masters, of Eventual Millionaire fame, who's with me here in Bali. We planned this holiday in late 2016 when she found out she got asked to speak in the Philippines, just before my Freedom Mastermind Retreat I hold in Bali each year. So this was our window of time to fly into Bali at the same time and enjoy 9 days together. And we are doing that extremely well. Jaime is a single mother of two with an extremely successful and busy coaching and mastermind business. She's also a self prescribed geek when it comes to maximizing time efficiency and more recently bio hacking - do it yourself biology optimization, so to speak. Or as Jaime puts it - how to be a badass. So here's our jam session on how to optimize your day and also how to take mini vacations through a variety of suggested activities we do, and that we also think should be on your list. Natalie: So this is exciting! We are recording this in our lovely little room in Ketut's Place in Bali in Ubud and there's thunder and lightning happening and rain. This is cool. I am sitting on the bed as you do, with my girl, Jaime Masters and we've been talking a lot over the last couple of days about treating yourself because yesterday we had a four and a half hour pamper session! Thanks to Jaime, an early birthday present and it was amazing. And I was like, "Why don't we do this all the time?" and then I think actually if you did that all the time you'd just be in bliss zone and you wouldn't get anything done. Jaime: I think it can get boring after a little while. Natalie: Yeah, but it was pretty amazing. Like we had several massages, we had a facial; we had pedicures, manicures, head massage, hair treatment, body scrub. And I was in and out of states of bliss, in an out of state of sleeping, dreaming, imagining, ideating. It's beautiful. But what I want to just chat to you about, because I think you are really good at this with your full-time roster of amazing clients that you coach over at Eventual Millionaire and your business and your full time podcast where you are interviewing millionaires all the time. I mean you have one of the busiest schedules I know off plus you are a mom, full-time mom. So do you want to just share a couple of the ways you treat yourself throughout the day because I think you do this really well. Jaime: So first of all anybody that says that they don't have time, means that they don't want to. There is a great quote about that by Lao Tzu. "Time is a created thing. To say 'I don't have time,' is like saying, 'I don't want to." ? Lao Tzu So out of everybody I know, I am extremely busy. We need that time because we go crazy and nutso and when you get on that roll you are not efficient or effective in anything you do. So lessons learned from me sort of going a little insane, to children, and to my business and everything else has led me to actually taking the time in between. Even 15 minutes of going, "Ah! This is just for me and I don't have to do anything else." So we talked about meditation before and I definitely do meditate a lot. Sometimes in small spurts. Like I literally was just meditating for fifteen minutes while you were on the phone just now, because I feel like it gives me a deeper state of relaxation. I do that throughout the day quite often even at home in-between calls. But just trying to take that time where you can actually shut off whatever you're crazy entrepreneur brain is saying and go, "Okay this is time that I don't actually have to think about that", because otherwise we will. Our brain will just keep going forever and ever and ever. And so trying to pull those pieces out as best as you can, you know what I mean? Natalie: And I think we started discussing this from the minute I landed in Bali and I think you did too. We've both come off some pretty hectic schedules, me with house buying and packing up and book writing and helping my mom move and you with speaking in the Philippines, and having to do all the work around that as well. I think we both got to Bali and we are just like, 'ahhhhhhh' and I just noticed instantly how my mind just quietened and I've done more yoga and massage in the last two days than I had probably in the last months. So why don't we roll through, like kind of spit-fire out some of our favorite at home mini vacations we take during a pretty busy working day? Jaime: Okay so for me, I have a routine at the beginning. I literally wake up before my kids wake up now, 5:30am in the morning. I am not a morning person as much as Hal Elrod told me to wake up in the morning. I was like, "No I don't think so." It's literally only been the last four months or so. Beforehand I would meditate right after I brought them to school, but I realized that it wasn't quite enough for me and I kept feeling like I had too much to do throughout the day when the kids are at school so I moved it. And so far so good. I'm going strong but I am not a morning person! Natalie: Thunder. If you have any of this, this is real Bali in the background. Just making it real. Jaime: That was number one, so that was an evolution in my process. I have been meditating for a very long time and I was never like, "I have to meditate every day." It's just I wanted to, I wanted to. It is something that I pull out. I also do probably five to fifteen minutes in between whenever I am feeling overwhelmed or brain dead. So when I do a lot, I batch everything and so whenever I do client calls, sometimes I'm like, "How can my brain stop functioning like it should?" and being in states of flow are way more productive in general, so I try and figure out ways. There's a good book called Stealing Fire, it talks about hacking into the flow state that I was telling you a little bit about. What can we do that makes us feel so much better that we can come back and hit the ground running instead of just feeling horrid and crazy? Just what we were talking about this before too, like all day long nutso. And so I'll do that, I have a pool in the back sometimes when it's nice out, I'll go jump in the pool and reassess things, especially during the day when I'm actually working on stuff. At night time I'll definitely go, "This is my time! I am going to have a bubble bath. I am going to do whatever I can possibly do to turn that piece off". Because we don't make a conscious effort in general to turn it off. Natalie: A bubble bath is so good. I am looking forward to potentially buying a spa and having a spa pool for night time relaxation. I like the idea of a sauna, whether you go to one or have one at your place. Often gyms have a sauna so just even ten minutes sweating it out and just being present with your body is pretty amazing. Other things are just dropping into fifteen, twenty, or a thirty minute yoga session during the day, and I love starting with five minutes of downward dog because it ultimately ends up being a lot more, and just giving yourself that space. Also, when I have a dog which I am getting soon! I would just have cuddle time with my dog. I'd literally have a play time, go outside, throw the Frisbee, throw the ball, play. You've got kids around you, you'd grab them, play. Jaime: That's a funny thing. So sometimes I'm so back-to-back I like walking into the mailbox it's like my time. I literally go, "Okay I need some sun. I am going to go walk outside", because I literally only have like five minutes, like literally I am so scheduled. No matter what the time is, it doesn't matter I think it's the intention behind it that makes a huge difference. Because sometimes you can play with your dog and be like, "Oh that still didn't really help." But if you are really intentional about it, it makes-- Natalie: Throw the phone away for a minute. Jaime: As hard as it is. Natalie: Get back to nature. Sometimes just actually being outside and getting sun on your face is a really beautiful thing and just tune into the sounds around you. Jaime: I go and I lay in my backyard. I have the pool and I will go and lay on the bed and feel like, because we have an outdoor bed, just sit there for five minutes and not even have to do a meditation or anything like that, but just sort of soak in the sun. Natalie: The Vitamin D. Jaime: Sometimes I need that big time. And then being able to sort of go; "Now I reset. Now I can go back in". Very helpful. Natalie: We should caveat this with the fact that you are very efficient with your time. So it's not like you ever say, "I am really busy." You are fulfilled. You are busy but I as you said you batch things. Do you want to maybe talk people through kind of your working week so that... they do hear that you have time off, and time out and you are really good at, oh we didn't even mention it, you get regular massages? So do I but you get them every single week, yeah? Jaime: Oh yeah. Natalie: I think if you can you should even if it's half an hour. Jaime: Well this is the thing I kept going, "Oh I don't have the time because I have kids and I can't... when can I get a massage when I don't have them. We'll I have to work during the school hours". All that craziness goes on in your head. Let me just say, everybody can solve every problem pretty much. So my massage person comes in at their bed time, my kids go to bed, massage person comes in and I literally go to sleep right afterwards. Natalie: They come to your house? Jaime: They come to my house. It's not anymore expensive either. And they will do it like nine o'clock at night which is insane. Natalie: And then you just go to sleep? Jaime: I just go to sleep. It's like the best ever. It's amazing but it's because I am so scheduled and so intentional with my time. Because this is the thing too, it's not like I don't take a time off with the kids, it's that I have to be super effective whenever I am doing whatever I am doing. I have a lot of things going on so a typical schedule for me ,and I make my clients do all this too. I call it the master's schedule: Mondays are meeting days, back to back meetings like literally, with my masterminds, with my personal scrum from my team. Tuesdays are coaching days. Wednesdays, every other Wednesday is an interview so either back to back millionaire interviews or back to back me doing interviews on other people's podcast and then the rest of the week is free. So it's 'working free' so within the time my kids are in school which they get out at three thirty. Then I have open space that I can actually fill in advance because I am one of those people. But usually when I have the kiddos I'm done at three and then I don't work again unless it's like a crazy launch and I have to make an exception. It's me like going for a walk with the kids or I try and get some of the more special, relaxing kind of time with them. Not that I don't have to do homework, not that I don't have to do all the other stuff, but it's just trying to have that space within the confinement. How to take a quick daily vacation Alright hopefully you have some firm ideas on how to take a daily mini vacation. To recap: Short bursts of exercise - dance, walk to the mailbox, dip in the pool, play with your dog, drop down and do yoga. Treat yourself - have a massage or a sauna, at home or book it in at your local. Read a book - jump in a hammock, laze on your bed, lie on the floor, curl up in the couch, throw your phone away and disconnect the internet for 30 mins...then enjoy your fave book. Pleasure yourself - did I really just say that? Heck yeah I did. Have a quickie, grab your fave sex toy and take a moment to...you know...have some fun. Or grab your partner and kiss them passionately. It releases endorphins which are feel good hormones and everyone needs those - plus you do that stuff on vacation right? So this IS a mini vacation. Meditation - refer to episode 2 - Mind Your Mindfulness for a 1 minute one! They say meditation can be better than sleep and sometimes sex. So I think it's time to really take this one seriously. Before we bring back Jaime, as she's been delving into meditation for almost a decade but has upped her game in the last year with amazing results, let's say hello to Freshbooks The working world has changed. With the growth of the internet there's never been more opportunities for the self-employed. To meet this need, FreshBooks is excited to announce the launch of an all new version of their cloud accounting software! It's been redesigned from the ground up and custom built for exactly the way you work. Get ready for the simplest way to be more productive, organized, and most importantly get paid quickly. The all new FreshBooks is not only ridiculously easy to use, it's also packed full of powerful features. Here are just a few of the ones Jessica Broome, entrepreneur and Freshbooks customer loves: Go to freshbooks.com/quest and check out their full list of amazing features then sign up and save yourself time and money today. Just enter Quest For Freedom where it says 'How did you hear about us'. Ok, let's dive into meditation. So on a couple of the previous episodes I've been talking about meditation. And I have to say that I think we've only just scratched the surface on this and I am going to be doing a lot more work around this. But having chatted to Jaime over the last couple of days intensely around her her meditation practice, I've seen this different side to it so I think I've always sat on the surface going, "What if I could just get five or ten or fifteen minutes a day?". I know the benefits of meditation but I wanted to bring Jaime back because she's just sort of open my mind and blown my mind with the routine and the practice and the intention behind her meditation and how much is that impacting everything else. So I haven't seen Jaime for a year and a half and this time around seeing her I turned up and I was like, "Oh my gosh! You are just more like grounded." So here's a conversation we had about her meditation. Natalie: So who is this Joe Dispenza guy that you keep going on about? Jaime: Okay so I've been meditating for a really really long time and then I became a disciple. The reason why I found Joe is because I'd injured my foot and he wrote a book called "You Are the Placebo" and I didn't want to have foot surgery. That's the thing it was for the problem-solution piece of it. I'd always meditated. I didn't even know his whole thing was about meditation. Natalie: How did you find him? Jaime: My best friend gave me the book. Because she had been following him for awhile. But I was just trying to solve whatever the heck that thing was. I didn't know how deep he goes into meditation about how your body can change itself. And so it makes sense with, You Are the Placebo, but I never linked meditation and that before which was really awesome. Because before I thought it was, "I am a crazy, business entrepreneur that needs to get everything out of her head and feel okay" because otherwise I might have anxiety or whatever the pieces are. That's why I'd meditated before. And then I found this thing and I was like, "Oh there's so much more to it than that!" Natalie: And they are self-guided aren't they? Which I like because It's quite hard to just sit and not have thoughts. In fact, it's near impossible. Even the monks after many decades of practice don't' do it super well but they are far better than us. And I think I'd like to be like walking down the beach listening to meditation and then there you were, I was having a surf lesson and you were walking down the beach listening to a self-guided meditation. One where Joe got you to like ground your feet into the sand at one point, stop and just be. So I love the sound of that. Because I love walking and I like being active while meditating. What happens in that meditation? Jaime: So that one's really interesting. Joe has a bazillion different types of meditation. Some were shorter. This one's an hour and fifteen minutes. Some of our friends are like, "Oh surfing is so like that". It was funny when I was walking, thankfully eyes open for quite a bit, I was looking at some of the surfers and just thinking about how amazing that is too. There's a quite a few different pieces to his types of meditation. And so one is a big breathing aspect and then walking, where he doesn't have you do that because you look weird. But what he does as you start walking, he has you start envisioning your future and then walking as your future self. And imagining whatever happened that you want to have happened in the future as if it was a memory of the past. So you are walking and he is like talking about how to think of this and think of that, and as you are walking you feel amazing, on top of the world type of person. And then he has you stop and just close your eyes and imagine the feelings that you would feel: gratitude, joy - whatever those things are or affirmations are. And literally, because your body's been walking and energized, already like to me it goes like crazy. It makes you really feel the emotions. And then you walk again. And it levels up the emotional side of it. Levels up the feeling of, "Oh my gosh! This is what I'll feel like in the future." Right, that confidence, whatever those pieces are. And so you are sort of stepping into what that is and it makes a lot more believable. So as an entrepreneur I feel like, "Oh I want to speak on a stage at TEDx in front of a thousand people." I was chatting with somebody when I spoke in the Philippines, she's like, "I love crowds of 10,000 to 15,000 people." And I was like, "Hmmmm. I haven't done that before. 10,000 people that's a lot of people. Wow, Okay great!" She said, "The energy is just insane." And so then I started going, "Let's imagine what that would look like. I'm sure I can do it". And so in the walking meditation, I started bringing in some of those pieces. So when you start bringing in the pieces as if it already happened, especially the science behind meditation, it actually does. Have you heard the piano player thing? They had a study where: Some people actually play the piano in a certain number of hours per day for a specific song. Another one just did the finger exercises with no piano. And then the other ones meditated on it. So the people would actually meditate on it. They never touched the piano, and they actually were just as good as the other people. Natalie: When they finally went to play the piano? Jaime: Yes which is insane. Natalie: I've heard a few studies around stuff just re-visioning exercise on that. Jaime: Yes. It gets your body in certain state. It's really interesting to see the studies because we are placebos by the way, right? So we affect our thoughts and everything affects everything. And I think entrepreneurs need to get this better and better and better. It's not just clearing your brain it's all those thoughts that we think, that determine what we actually take action on, what we actually do. All those beliefs or whatever you want to say whether they are subconscious or not. When you start flushing those out, and you start imagining yourself..... I've had a friend who hated speaking and then he did like a hundred different speaking gigs all in a row just to get over the fear and to get really good at it. Well, you do a 100 of them and you'll get really good at it! Imagine meditating on it a hundred days in a row instead of actually having to go do it. And again there might be a little bit of twinge when you do the first one but it's going to feel so much more natural even just the visualization of it. And I've interviewed a ton of millionaires, 400 and something millionaires, so many of them bring up visioning, it's insane. I was not woo-woo at all and I started going down this road and interviewing millionaires and I'm like, "How come everybody keeps talking about this?". Because I really wanted to know and so then I started looking at the science behind it all. And then I'm like, "There's something to this", because I am a sciency kind of gal and then I've started implementing and doing it. It has literally changed so many things and what I can see is possible moving forward. Natalie: You mentioned that it's helped you, one being all grounded and not even noticed that visibly in you. You said your skin is glowing. You think you looked younger like not aging. What are some of the other benefits? Jaime: There's a whole thing on epigenetics which if you read any of Joe's books. Sleep Smarter by Shawn Stevenson talks about epigenetics - our bodies and what we feel basically. Because this is the thing, I don't think people really understand, and again the science is very very new behind all this. It hasn't really come out to the general population. If I say epigenetics, people are more like, "I don't have a clue what that is". But your DNA actually can turn on and off based on your environment. And so it's not all like you were born like this and now we are like that forever, it's what you ingest, what you are doing, what you are thinking that all affects your body, which makes logical sense when you think about it. We are not emotionless robots. All the pieces and parts really make a difference. You've seen the president go from looking really really young beforehand and how the heck did he age so much in such a short period of time? Like the stress and everything. And so it really affects your body. So you can do it in the opposite direction also. How can we change that? Natalie: I was telling you about Josh's friend Rohan, his father from England who's been doing transcendental meditation for something like forty five years or more. I haven't met him and I really want to meet him. I told you that right? Because he is late 70s and he looks like he is in his 40s. He gets up at five a.m every morning. He does one to two hours of transcendental meditation with the music and all the vibrations and everything. And he is apparently just super focused and onto it. He doesn't need much sleep. Just incredibly aware and has energy all day and that youth, that vitality and that absolute solidness around what he does and who he is. He's absolutely precise and clear on who he is and what energy he gives off. So that fascinates me. It does make me feel, yes you could change your state and you can change your entire DNA makeup. By the way, did you know that when you get sunburnt you are changing the DNA? There's a whole science behind it which you'd love. When you get sunburnt, your cells are exploding and we have billions of cells right, but they are exploding and each little explosion is shifting and changing your DNA. So overtime you can actually change your DNA of your body. Jaime: Good way or bad way? Natalie: I don't think sunburn is obviously good for you at all, but it's just more the point that scientists have seen that you are actually changing your DNA through that. So there must be other ways of changing your DNA. Jaime: When you look up epigenetics and you'll see some of those pieces because it's insane to read some of the studies on this. I didn't realize this. I'm like, "Man!". It is one of those things where it's such a new science so it seems a little woo-woo to people. It is with any sort of newer science. Natalie: I know scientists needs the data and the facts but also I just want to see it's working. Jaime: This is what I do, I'm like, "Well I'll test it and If I like it, I'll keep doing it and if I don't like it, then I won't." But there's a lot of Charletons that are like, "Oh you do this thing and it's amazing!". So that's what we have to be careful of, but to me I'll test anything and if I like it and I see results then I'll continue. I care about the smarts and logic. And so meditation has allowed me to tap in way more and not just be a 'running around like trying to do everything head wise', but actually tapping into all parts of your body. I never thought that your gut or intuition was a big deal until, again I heard so many millionaires going, "I went with my gut" and I'm like, "Wait! There's no real science behind that." I'll put a spreadsheet together so I can look at all the facts, this is why I am so science based because I need something to make a decision. I would almost never go with my gut. Natalie: Gut every time. Jaime: See... but to me I didn't get the point of gut. I thought that that wasn't logic. When you read like the book, Blank and we realize how amazing we are as human beings. We can make an assessment on something without even necessarily knowing the facts and data. Like that book was very eye opening to me because I was like, "Oh, maybe I do know more than logic will tell me and research and data." And so realizing that, along with everything else tapping into that. You can shut yourself off big time. Most people do. Most of the clients that I talk to I ask "What's your gut saying?" They are like "I don't know." Natalie: Oh really? I do it all the time. The only time that I haven't sometimes is travelling, because I listen to my gut and instinct all the time in travelling. "Don't go down there" or actually "Don't take that bus". Jaime: What does that feel like? Where? How do you do that? Natalie: Literally like a strong sensation to not go ahead and buy that ticket. Where? It's a good point. You do actually feel it in your stomach and then I feel like it just triggers straight away to your brain with a no. I have voice in my head going, "That's not a wise idea." It's really crazy and I just listen to it all the time. Jaime: I had heard this one place, and I have not verified sources but, what's interesting is they were saying that it's actually your heart that is making a lot of these decisions, and then going to either your stomach and then your brain and so it triggers all of them right? We sometimes think it's our brain first. Natalie: It's literally like a decision and sometimes your body will stop. Sometimes your body will stop walking like 'you are not going to go down there, Natalie'. It's the fight-or-flight response that I feel kicks in and that is triggered by your immune system and/or your nervous system, so I guess your heart is the thing that's beating. Jaime: We just don't know very much about our bodies though. Like it's kind of sad. I am trying to teach my children like, "Okay. Where do you feel that in your body?" so that they can become more in tune because I never was. I was like, what is that feeling? I would never go with my gut in general. So knowing and being able to say, "This actually works." I needed all the data from all the millionaires like, "Wait, you've went with your gut and that worked? Wow! Interesting." It would be really interesting to ask which ones typically go with their gut and which ones don't. Natalie: And where do you feel that in your body - that's an interesting question to ask anybody. Going on a bit of tangent here but asking 'how do you feel' and see what people's responses are, because if you ask a very pragmatic logic based person, they will go, "I am blah blah blah." Jaime: Okay so this is my best friend, she had to ask me every single day. She goes, "How do you feel?" and I'd say, "Good" and she'd go, "Good is not a feeling." "Great! I feel great!", she said, "That's not a feeling." I didn't have the words to express it. I literally had one of those little cards that said all the emotions on it. But I couldn't find the nuances between the emotions because I didn't think it was a big deal. Like what does it matter? Natalie: And it does matter. Jaime: It totally does now I know. I am teaching my children this. So tapping into intuition or tapping into your gut is an example. I don't know what that felt like. I was like, "Huh! Nope. I got nothing." The little nuances in anxiety or the little nuances in joy, the little nuances in things that I just never paid attention to. And yet we can be so much more expressive as human beings if you actually know that. I had beforehand thought, "If I just negate all the bad emotions and only felt the good ones, I'll be happy in my world". I mean you know in entrepreneurship too, it doesn't work that way. Shit happens. Natalie: It's a rollercoaster. Jaime: Exactly. You have to mitigate all of it and sometimes the crappy stuff is teaching you the most and you have to be okay with those emotions because if you try and negate that you won't take the risks, even calculated risks. You just won't make the steps towards that because you are so scared of negative emotions. It's an interesting thing. Natalie: I think a lot of people live in the state of, "I'm okay. I'm okay. So I am not going to show any emotions." And you asking me the other day, "Do you feel that you tapped into that? Are you emotional?" I have my moments around my Dad because I was quite surprised that I wasn't more upset or just really in that state, but I do think it's because I focused on celebrating his life. It doesn't mean I think I shut down my feelings. Like I will have my moments where I'll just cry. As I told you I am big soak in movies. I'll just have waterworks in movies. I feel like a lot around animals and nature. I don't worry so much or sweat the small stuff but I often think about global issues or environment or inhumane treatment of animals or people. And that stuff gets me really emotional but I think there are so many people who are walking through life they are taking the drugs and numbing them. Jaime: But that's the point right? The placebo, the book is all about, you don't need to rely on what we think. One of the reasons why we take a placebo and think it will work is because people have told us that it will work. If a doctor someone of high authority goes, "This will work for you." Even if it numbs you like crazy, you are like, "Oh then half of it's probably the placebo effect and the pills don't even work." So it's one of those things where us knowing ourselves better. If you are the type, "I am emotional in these sort of ways and I don't need to like make myself be emotional in other ways either", but knowing yourself better makes a huge difference. So if you do get sick or whatever, trying to pay attention to what those emotions were within it and then solving that instead of going after like, "I just need more alcohol" or "I need more drugs". Like when I injured my neck they gave me Hydrocodone and I'm like, "That's a lot!". It's a narcotic. They gave me a lot of pills. I was kind of surprised. They gave me like three sets of pills. Natalie: The United States scares me with what they give out. It's such a pill based society. Jaime: And I was like, "So how do I fix it though?". It's one thing to numb the pain and I am okay with pain I can handle a lot of pain but how do I fix it? Nobody really went down that path which sucks. Natalie: It does. Western medicine is very much like immediate solution where as I love the Eastern philosophy around preventing it before it's even happened. Jaime: Yes but the thing is I agree a thousand percent but because we've already gone past the point. So again this is western world but we are sold that we can have everything right now and this is why meditation is so important too. Because we are moving at a constant pace especially entrepreneurs. We are problem solvers and we wanted the problem solved yesterday not today. And so a pill, sure! Faster, easier, more efficient. Natalie: The headache was just from the hours of pampering and all the detox. And when I was in that yoga class, that restorative yoga which I loved and I was having trouble with the hamstring pose and it was really like sinking in. Sinking into that pose and feeling the pain and I wanted to come out of it because we had to hold it for five minutes. And that's when she said, "If you are challenged by this pose, you probably have issues with control, because the control that you put into your everyday life will manifest itself into your basically your hamstring." So the tightening there is the constant control or tension. And I think in intrinsically you know that but whatever we are holding any source of tension or pain or even love manifests itself in your body. Jaime: So that's the whole point of Joe Dispenza, the whole point completely. He was a doctor and he actually cut his spinal cord. It was like crazy he couldn't walk and he didn't want to have surgery. And all the doctors are like, "So you kind to have surgery to fix this", and he was, "I am not going to do it." He meditated. And people were like, "Okay, you meditated your spinal healing. That's a little insane." Natalie: Have he done meditation before? Jaime: I don't remember. I think he must have done something. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be like, "Oh I am going to try meditation and see if this works." He was a chiropractor so he knew the body really really well but what is interesting like you were saying is being able to have whatever is existing in our body usually is for a reason. And unfortunately because we are problem solvers and we want to fix this so fast we just take the pill and go, "That will be okay." But more and more instances of cancer, more and more instances of crazy stuff and we are going, "What's wrong?". Well yeah it's probably food and stuff like that too but there's so many things that we don't understand that us taking care of ourselves, like you said the eastern side of things could have probably prevented but now we are at this tipping point where we can't see the force for the trees anymore. And so that's why it's great that he wrote the book called, You Are the Placebo because there's literally everybody going, "I have a problem. I need a solution." And so being able to show people, "Oh by the way, this could help this." Natalie: I was going to say it sounds of ironic but I am about to say we have to take control or more importantly, we have to take responsibility because things are not going to get better. We are going to have more and more technology. We'd be more and more connected. We are going to have more and more devices. We are going to have more multi-tasking. We are going to have more and more things in our life that are causing us to live lives in totally different way where we don't have peace, quiet, nature, reflection, timeout, thinking time, quiet time. And so we just have to and that's why I am so proud of you because you are making time because you love it every morning to do your meditation. Jaime: One I didn't love it. I couldn't sit for five minutes. I used to lay down because I couldn't sit up. So I couldn't sit up for that long and I hated the five minutes every single time. It's just very much an evolutionary process. That being said I learned my own process. A lot of clients are resistant because they are entrepreneurs and logical and my brain is way too crazy, "I can't do it Jaime". I was like, "I have the same crazy brain you do. I have ADD literally". And so when we are looking at, "Okay what can you do as a first step?" We talked about five minutes of headspace. Headspace is great, Calm app is great, just to sort of slowly get into that and then I have people come back and they are like, "Oh that felt a little better." And then what is that next step and what is that next step, I did this as part of the evolutionary process it to try to make meditation efficient. I would get all the crap out of my head so that way I could feel like i could be more clear. David Allen's Getting Things Done, getting everything out of your head. So I would do that piece along with having this inspired thoughts of, "Oh you know what I should do and this". Natalie: You'd actually literally go sit down or lie down to meditate but then you'd have bing bing bing thoughts. So you'd actually then stop the meditation? Jaime: I wouldn't actually stop the meditation. It's really kind of funny I had a eye pillow on and I'd literally have a journal right next to me and I'd scribble. It's just like a twenty, thirty minute meditation, it wasn't a lot because I would only do the first piece like this. I would literally just go, "Oh!" and write those. Changes of launch plans or the ideas that I have. And then I would be able to clear and be a lot better. So it's still guided meditation but this is what I have my clients do because in general they are like," I can't make it stop." You know what makes it stop? Write all that crap down. And because David Allen talks about with getting things done, if it's still on your head it will keep reminding it. It will keep bringing it up. So there you have it. This topic of Personal Freedom here on the Quest for Freedom Podcast continues to come back to freedom of the mind in so many respects. I know I will continue to delve deeper into this. In the next episode I'll be discussing personal freedom from a place of less stuff weighing you down - as in decluttering. Tune in for that one. And read the full show notes for this episode at nataliesisson.com/7 You can also sign up to get fresh, hip and timely email updates when I release a new episode. Or you can simply subscribe in iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud or Google Play and make my day - and hopefully make yours.   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Do you ever wonder how successful entrepreneurs streamline their businesses? In this wonderful interview, Natalie Sisson shares with us her magic formula for creating freedom and success through streamlining everything about her business. It takes most entrepreneurs a long time to get this right, if they ever get it and Natalie openly admits, took her awhile to figure out, too.  Save yourself time and frustration – join us for some great business advice: -Top 3 Stages For Building A “Freedom Lifestyle” Business- How One Entrepreneur Can Live Out Of A Suitcase And Still Be Successful - Natalie’s Magic Formula For Success - Timeless Business Advice From An Entrepreneur Who’s “Been There” - How To Leave Your Legacy Intact   Natalie Sisson is No #1 bestselling author, podcaster, speaker and adventurer who believes everybody has the right to choose freedom in business and adventure in life. Shes on a mission to ensure 100,000+ entrepreneurs do just that by 2020 over at the SuitcaseEntrepreneur.com Born in New Zealand Natalies built her multiple six figure business from her laptop over the last 5 years while living out of her suitcase, traveling to 70 countries and showing others how to build a profitable online freedom business that supports their ideal lifestyle through her definitive Freedom Plan program. A Mission Of Freedom And Adventure… Natalie is on a mission. Her mission is to ensure that 1,00000+ entrepreneurs will have their well-deserved freedom with their businesses and an adventure in their life by Year 2020.She provides some terrific resources at suitcaseentrepreneur.com. Natalie's Magic Formula For Success Do you ever wonder how successful entrepreneurs streamline their business? In this interview Natalie shares with us the magic formula for creating freedom and success, which she admits, took her awhile to figure out. What is that magic formula? The answer isn’t as simple as just one thing BUT if there was one very important element that stands above all others, it is  DISCIPLINE. She tells us that the more disciplined you are around your team, the more disciplined and organized your team is. Just watch.  As you become more disciplined, you’ll see your team change in the way they take care of your business. Natalie’s “Sexy Operating Procedures” Natalie further said, because she and her team work with discipline and strictly follow her protocol (named “The Sexy Operating Procedures”) she can take as much time off as she wants (within reason) and still be confident that her business will still make money. Even without her being physically there, her business still operates just fine.   If You’ve Ever Wondered How To Do It, Then Just Ask Some One Who Already Has... Natalie has found what she absolutely loves.  She is able to travel around the world, taking on new coaching clients and leisurely write new blog entries... all because of her supreme confidence in having built a tremendous business. Success Isn’t Always Easy Knowing she wanted an awesome lifestyle, Natalie committed herself with incredible discipline, to building her community, portfolio of products & programs. Natalie’s Timeless Business Advice Her one piece of advice, live and breath what you preach. If you focus and discipline yourself into just one thing that you truly love, the rewards will be wonderful.  Don’t forget to put a lot of effort and fun into it. Make sure you make an effort to build a business around people who  appreciate what you offer, your work and share the same vision. Find people who want to have the same adventure and share the same definition of freedom as you do.   Why Would YOU Want To Live A Suitcase Life Natalie describes herself as an entrepreneur who is Rich and Homeless. She is living a “suitcase life”. Natalie does indeed own a house and she doesn’t care about what other people think of, her property and belongings. All Natalie cares about is that her place is enjoyable, where her guests can feel comfortable  and welcome. She believes that material things really don’t matter. Even if you have the fanciest car, the most incredible sofa, the most amazing artwork hanging on your wall, none of this stuff matters. How To Leave Your Legacy Intact Natalie shares with us, that there is so much more beyond having possessions. Let’s just say that you were to leave this planet tomorrow. Nobody will remember you for the car or the expensive artwork that you had.  You have to aim and hope that people will remember you for the legacy that you’ve left through the amazing work you’ve done and from the people, whose lives you’ve touched. That is much more important than material things. Invest in experiences and in memories that can never be taken away. In the end, those things are really your priceless possessions...and no amount of money can buy them. Three Stages Of Building A Freedom Lifestyle Business Natalie quickly turned her attention to building an online business that helps others escape the confines of an office, work remotely, still be productive and earn good money. Below, Natalie shares with us her time-tested, three stages of building a “Freedom Lifestyle” for any business. The Freedom Mindset -  This is the stage that is the hardest for people to really understand. It’s the freedom mindset. She explains that once you have a business or a career that affords you to have a little bit of more flexibility, a lot of people start to struggle. Their mindset changes to “I don’t necessarily have to work a normal working week nine to five”, “I can take more time off”, “I can take a mid week weekend”, “I don’t have to be based in an office”. “I don’t need to have clients that are in the same location as mine”.Despite the flexibility, you should not lose your vision and still be clear about it. Having great friends and family who keep you reminded about your vision is also a good idea and will also help you stay on track. The Financial Freedom - The second stage “Financial Freedom” which really comes down to how we setup our business or career. Do you have enough revenue and income to afford a great lifestyle, that will not tie you down at the same time?Natalie’s goal for financial freedom is having a revenue stream or a stable cash flow that will allow flexibility in whatever you’re doing and lets you be involved either actively or passively in your business. These are the nuts and bolts of building an online business.If you want Financial freedom in your business, you should carefully consider your business model.  As an example, what are your plans for social media, sales strategies, sales funnels and outsourcing?  What are the systems you’ll used to create your business? The Lifestyle Freedom - And the final part is lifestyle freedom. This is asking yourself, “What sort of a lifestyle do I want?” “How am I going to live it?”, “How often do I want to travel, how much time do I want to spend at home?”, “How will I travel?”, “how do I pack lightly?”. It’s really thinking about minimalism and how do you get rid of unnecessary possessions that are weighing you down to be more free. Natalie Talks About The Transparency Of Living A Suitcase Life While she says that she “really enjoys the constant change” her travel brings, it also gives her a few downsides. For instance, it can often be difficult for her to forge long-lasting, meaningful relationships with people. Structuring days can also pose a challenge for her. She hoped that her businesses will get over the fact that she doesn’t need to be present to reach out and connect with people and still add value. As a result of this, she plans on slowing things down. Natalie is looking forward to spending a little longer in the places she visits. She looks forward to finding somebody who’s up for an adventure to share and for moving around as well. The Ultimate Goal Natalie hopes that more people will be able to live her way in the future. She wants more entrepreneurs to build and design their businesses based on what they love doing and around their lifestyle needs. She hoped also that everyone will aim on having a lifestyle business that will give all the freedom to take a time off at any time.  This means especially for that time you might need to drop everything to take care of yourself, relationships and family. In that circumstance, she wants you to still have the confidence that your business will be stable and will still generate income even when you’re not around. [content_toggle style="1" label="Please%20Click%20Here%20to%20View%20the%20Entire%20Transcript%20of%20the%20Show" hide_label="Hide"] Natalie: Hi. I’m Natalie Sisson, the suitcase entrepreneur and I once was almost arrested in Sydney airport for being a little bit silly with one of the security officers and telling him that he wouldn’t find explosives in my suitcase. That he’d actually in fact find them strapped to my chest. I thought it was really funny at the time. He didn’t think it was funny at all. If I’d been in America I probably would’ve been arrested. Not my smartest move on my travels. Woman: In business and know the way forward most include social media. Perhaps you find it a bit confusing. Even frustrating. Well, you have no idea how to make it work for your business. Fear not. We interview some of the best social media experts in business who will share their experiences, ideas and knowledge. Plus offer tips and tricks to make using social media a breeze. Leverage the power of social media and grow your business now. Welcome to social media business hour with your host Nile Nickel. Jordan: Hello and thank you again for joining us. This is Nile’s trusty sidekick and co-host Jordan and I’d like to take a moment to share with you how you can benefit from Nile’s incredible experience using social media for real business success. If you’re an entrepreneur or thinking about starting your own business then using social media might be the most cost effective and time effective way to get your business real results. That’s not to mention much of what you can do to get those terrific results on social media is even free. Take Linked In for example. Nile always says it’s the best social media platform for business today. And that’s why I recommend you go to linkedinfocus.com and start your social media education today. Sign up for Nile’s free tips, tricks and strategies. Once again, it’s free and it only takes a few seconds. Go to linkedinfocus.com today. You’ll be glad you did. Nile: Hey, welcome back. And after our funny news story there -- obviously you heard the tease at the beginning of the show with Natalie Sisson and by the way with the tease that Natalie gave us at the beginning of the show -- if you take a picture of Natalie I think if I was on the other side of that I would be laughing but let me tell you a little bit about Natalie. Maybe together with her. But Natalie Sisson is a number one bestselling author, podcaster, speaker and adventurer. Definitely an adventurer. Who believes everybody has the right to choose freedom in business and adventure in life. She’s on a mission and I love this mission. In fact, Natalie I’m going to ask you about this as soon as I tell everybody what your mission is. Your mission is to ensure 100000 plus entrepreneurs have freedom in their business and adventure in their life by 2020 over at suitcaseentrepreneur.com how did you come up with that and how do you go about helping people do that? Natalie: Actually I just changed it recently to a million because somebody told me I was playing too small and when I started my business around five years ago that seemed like a pretty big number for me to reach either directly or indirectly through spreading the word in my books and my podcast and my blog and my programs and my retreats and my workshops around the world so now it’s a million people. So I’ve got a lot of work to do. But how I help people doing that is really showing them what’s possible and I think a lot of people are able to build a business that supports their ideal lifestyle. They just have to get really clear on what their ideal lifestyle looks like. And freedom means a lot of different things to a lot of different people and so for me it’s just getting them really clear about if you could wake up tomorrow and do whatever you wanted, spend time with the right people, be in a location that you wanted, what would your life look like and what would you be doing and how would you be spending your time? And it’s a great place for people to start and from there I can then get them to look at how they’re going to monetize themselves, build a business that’s mobile and really make revenue and make enough money to support their lifestyle and have an amazing life. That’s not the specifics of how I help them do it but that’s essentially the overall division of what I’m trying to help them with. Nile: One of the things that I find fascinating is people might detect you have a little bit of a different accent. Natalie: I have a different accent. Awesome accent. Nile: Might even say a southern accent. I think it’s awesome too. Sounds very romantic I might add but that’s just me. But you come from New Zealand and you came up with this big bold thing. You’ve been living it, you’ve been doing it so by the way, this isn't a -- just a vain promise. You’ve been out there doing it. But New Zealand’s a fairly small country, not heavily populated. What brought all this on? I’m just really curious. Natalie: That’s a great question. Well, it is paradise here in New Zealand. I’m actually just back here visiting family and it is a beautiful place but it’s also as I like to say on top of the world so there’s a whole lot more world out there to explore. And ever since I was a kid I’ve been traveling, my parents have been amazing. They’re both from Europe. They took my sister and I on tons of boat travels and so I just have this massive curiosity about the rest of the world and the countries and the cultures that I wanted to explore but what lead me to this point of living out of a suitcase and running a business and teaching other people how to travel the world and create a business that they love is really I think just kind of partly by accident and partly because I really wanted to not be stuck in an office working for other people so when I did finally go out on my own and become an entrepreneur and start my business and run some workshops I took everything that I did online and thought if I can make money from anywhere online from my laptop then I don’t need to be in one place to do it. So that’s what started the adventure and freedom quest. Nile: So you’ve mentioned that your parents took you as a younger adult, a child on a number of trips. Is that where the inspiration really came from? Natalie: I don’t know. I mean, I love that they’ve always encouraged us to travel. But as I said the inspirations probably come from a myriad of things that happen in my life. I recently found a photo of myself in a suitcase when I was a kid. I’m like literally poking out of a suitcase. And if I look back on my university studies, all my corporate jobs that I used to host, the cofounding and technology company, everything’s always been around technology, information management, communications, presenting, magazine style work and travel combined so I really just pulled together marketing, brand management from my corporate jobs, the technology side and social media from the company I cofounded and then my love for being able to teach, learn, teach and learn and just really be able to do that from anywhere. So it was -- like I think an accident or genius really on my behalf to be able to do it and probably a very strong longing from the get go to still be able to incorporate travel into anything that I do. Nile: How many miles would you say that you travel in a given year? Natalie: Oh, I don’t know because I work in kilometers. But a lot. For example, just coming back -- Nile: Well, we could go to kilometers. That’s fine. Natalie: Do you know what? I’ve never really actually taken the time to look at that because probably it would scare me. But just for example coming back to New Zealand I -- it was a 37 hour journey because I had a flight from Lisbon to Dubai. Then I had a nine hour wait in an airport which was actually not as bad as it sounded. Then I had a 13 hour flight to Melbourne, a four hour wait there and then a three and a half hour to New Zealand and I think I was looking and there were at least 10 -- or was it 12 and a half thousand kilometers on one of those legs alone so I’ve taken a lot of trips already this year and more to come so I don’t even know. Probably more like you with your 100000 miles I’m used to do in a year. Nile: Yeah, well, one of the things that I found and I’m going to get a little personal with you if it’s okay. I know that -- I had a family at the time and it was really hard on my family life to do that. I’ve got to believe for family or dating or whatever it may be that’s a pretty difficult thing to do. Have you found that or does it matter? Natalie: Yeah. I mean, obviously if I had family independence which by the way is not something that I do want so that’s the reason that I can't be even more free. I’m sure it would be even more complex or challenging but I’ve actually interviewed and profiled a lot of people in my community. I have lots of customers and clients who have families and they do make it happen. It’s awesome to see how they do it. They go off in RVs around the world and they go off to Guatemala and get their kids involved in nonprofits or working on the land or home schooling so there’s always ways to do what you want even with families. But for me personally I enjoy being single and I enjoy traveling the world. I enjoy having romances on some of my trips but for sure it makes it having a relationship a lot harder and that’s probably my next stage is how do I make that happen and make it more appealing to a person that I meet that oh, look. I’m heading off in a week here. Why don’t you come with me? Or being a bit more stable and sticking around in a few places which is my aim right now is to have a few more bases around the world and actually spend my time in fewer places, more time in the communities that I want to be in getting to know people, developing better relationships with friends and people and settling a little bit more so I think that time is coming up. Nile: Well, that makes sense and I could see that being the next book that will be coming out. Natalie: Maybe. Nile: I mean, I’m planning seeds here. Natalie: Well, I did touch on it in my Suitcase entrepreneur book. I did touch on how to manage relationships with family and friends while you’re traveling and also as a single person or as a couple but I didn’t go deeply into how do you find love on the road because frankly I don’t have the answers for that and I know a lot of people do struggle with it so I think when the times comes you put your mind to what you want to do. You’ll make things happen and you’ll put the effort in priority into that but this -- it is always challenges whether you’re single or married or whatever so it’s really up to you to kind of figure out what you’re wanting out of that. Nile: It absolutely is. One of the things that I have been really fascinated with -- clearly people go to your website which we’ll have in the show notes so we’ll make it easy for everybody but they go to your website, they look at your book, they see any of that. Clearly you’ve had a lot of success in what you’re doing. Now, that requires promotion and branding and all sorts of things like that. That being the case, how have you found the magic formula to do that as you’re on the road all the time? Natalie: The magic formula ironically to have all this freedom is discipline and it took me a while to figure that out. so the more disciplined I am around having assistants and a team and processes and what I call sexy operating procedures but most people call it standard operating procedures has really helped me to streamline my business so that I don’t have to spend much time on it. I can take as much time off as I want within reason. The things will still operate without me that I’ll still make money without it and that’s from all the years and hard work and hustle of building community and building up my portfolio of products and programs and committing everything that I have really to this and living the lifestyle as well. Living and breathing what I preach. So I think it’s taken focus and discipline and now I get to reap the rewards which is wonderful. But I still love what I do so I put a lot of effort into it but it’s fun and it’s wonderful because I built it around what I wanted it to be and I really appreciate getting to help people all the time with choosing their own adventure and their version of freedom. Nile: Well, I could clearly see that. I mean, your book the Suitcase entrepreneur -- if you look on Amazon at that it’s a five star review which isn't easy to get and reading through the comments that people have left I would say the majority of them are positive. Some of them are not so positive. But what I see and what I find about you through this process is through everything it appears that you’re very real, down to earth and transparent. Natalie: Absolutely. 100 percent. And I don’t want to be anything else. That’s funny that you say that about Amazon though because I think the very first one that comes up is a one star review saying living -- selling the dream or something. And the lady is really complementary about me. She’s like I’m sure Natalie would be a great person to hang out with. She seems really fun and cool but can't help but think that she’s selling a dream here and it’s such an interesting thing that you come up against because even just being back in New Zealand so many people look at this and they’re like well, how does somebody do that? How do you run a business from a laptop? How do you make really, really great money and be able to make an impact by selling how to make a business or how to run a business, how to live this lifestyle. So I get it. And it’s something that people have really taken a while to _____22:39 onto. How do you become a digital nomad. Use software and tools and technology and outsourcing to run any type of business actually from the road. And I think the biggest thing that’s been my success as you’ve mentioned Nile is just being really open and transparent about everything. My screw ups, my failures, the good times, the bad times. I recently ran a webinar and I totally forgot to plug in the Wi-Fi router and I was right at that critical moment of talking about my program that people could join and it cut out and I was like oh my god. This is ridiculous. And I just laughed out loud and then I shared it in a podcast. Like how not to run a webinar or how to -- things to avoid based on what I just did and people really appreciate that. It’s not all perfect. I don’t think there is this magic formula, I don’t try and put on a front and I think people appreciate that it’s just real and you show them the good, the bad and the ugly of being an entrepreneur and traveling the world. Nile: Now, so the next thing that I’m really curious about and I’m going to come back to the social media and the promotion and all of that in a bit but you mentioned a 100000 people that you really want to -- if you will transform their lives. And that wasn’t big enough. Now that it’s a million how are you going about that and how are people enrolling in this process because I assume that that’s where they say yeah. That’s what I want. How do I get it? So tell me a little bit about that. Natalie: Yeah. It’s a great question. Well, what’s coming out this year that I’ve been really excited about is social enterprise that I’ve been considering in my head for way to long which is why I need to take action and it’s still based around freedom. It’s called the Right to freedom and to answer your question I feel that’s the movement, that’s the initiative that’s going to spike hopefully up to a million people to join. So it’s still very much based on my Suitcase entrepreneur business and what I’ve been doing there but I’ve always had this long held belief that underneath the soul there’s a greater desire for me to understand what freedom really is because in the US it’s completely different to other parts of the world and I’m just fascinated by it now and I still see people getting blocked in my community that I’m working with and I think it’s because we have this real disparate idea around can I have an amazing lifestyle and a really successful career or business, family and all the freedom that I want or is that being too greedy, is it even possible and so Right to freedom is this movement that I’m going to be beginning actually later this month to start working on social enterprise and the first hopefully global study on freedom and from there I’m going to be expanding out into a whole bunch of things. Hopefully a documentary and a book and a whole assessment type profile where people can understand and learn more about how they can have more freedom. So that to me is the -- what I’ve been working to for the last five years with my business has gotten me this place where I’m like great. Now I can work on an even bigger initiative with a nonprofit aspect that has a huge amount of potential to be one of the most scary but exciting things I’ve embarked on but also make a huge impact on the world. So that’s why I’ve stepped it up to a million people this year because I finally feel I’m ready for the next five to seven years to go on this journey. Nile: One of the things I’m interested in is -- and the US is sort of a unique place if people haven’t traveled outside the US. The majority of my listeners are US based but that’s not true of all of the listeners. We’ve got people listening all throughout Europe and Asia and so on and so forth. But that being the case, you mentioned the difference in the US and how sometimes their idea of their right to freedom or that freedom view that they have is different. Talk to me a bit about that. Natalie: Oh, sure. I mean, I’m probably insulting people right now because I have a lot of American friends and I love them and I love visiting and being in America but it always blows my mind that people there are like having to be busy and working all the time and if they’re not seen to be doing that then something’s wrong. Like having time off, taking time out, enjoying half a day off from your business seems like you’re not doing the right thing or that something’s going wrong if that’s what you’re doing. And there’s a huge inherent nature there to be just hustling all the time, to be ambitious, to be making money, to be working as hard as you can, to be setting up that American dream and I think you’ve got it all wrong. Completely the wrong way around. And what you end up doing is working so hard to earn as much money as you can to buy things and more things and more materials that you don’t need that ultimately make you unhappy and you see so many people over there who’ve done really well for themselves, super wealthy and they’re miserable. So I’m not saying that’s indicative of all of the US but there is this -- very much this nature there that you have to push hard, work all the time and everything is a priority and a commitment in that respect and I’m like why are you doing all this work and why are you working so hard when your life is sitting there waiting for you to live it and go on adventures and really enjoy it and spread happiness and cherish every single moment and live like there is no tomorrow. Nile: That’s an interesting observation. We’ve got the phrase in the States and you’ve probably heard it as much as you’ve been here. Keeping up with the Joneses. Do you think what you observe with a  lot of people in the US is a bit of that keeping up with the Joneses syndrome? Natalie: Yeah. And I don’t think it’s just limited to the US but for sure it’s there. I mean, you see it in other cultures as well. And I get it but I just don’t agree with it. Like I mean, here’s a person speaking -- it’s easy for me to say. I live out of a suitcase but if I eventually buy and live in a house I frankly don’t care what other people think of my house, of the goods and the things that I have inside it. I want it to be my place, I want to enjoy it, I want people to feel comfortable and welcome there. It’s not about that I have the fanciest car or the most incredible sofa or the most amazing artwork on the walls. None of that stuff matters. If you were to leave this planet tomorrow nobody is going to remember you for the car that you had or the artwork that you had. I hope. I hope they’re going to remember you for the legacy that you’ve left through the work you’ve done or the people’s lives that you’ve touched. So all of that stuff just seems so unimportant in the scheme of things. Nile: I’m curious because I think in my own life apart from my family there are very few material possessions that I really, really enjoy and most of them are relatively small. I'm curious if you have any of those material possessions that find their way in the suitcase and travel around with you. Natalie: Short answer is no. Nile: Okay. Natalie: I mean, obviously if I lost my new Macbook tomorrow or my iPhone six I’d be a little bit frustrated but it’s -- all of it is replaceable. And even to the point that my mom bought me a beautiful ring for Christmas, the Christmas we just had and I love it and it’s the only thing that I wear every single day but even if I lost that it’s -- I’ve still got the memory. It’s more important that mom’s here than the ring that she gave me so I would say there’s pretty much nothing. Sometimes when I get a bit sick of my suitcase I’m kind of excited that if it got lost by the airlines because I’d have to go out and buy something new and refresh my wardrobe and start it fresh and just keep it interesting. Nile: Well, there you go. Well, no. I think of that. As I said, there’s very few things. I have for example a silver dollar money clip and that’s what I carry every -- the physical currency that I carry around is in that money clip. But I’ve now had that money clip probably for 25 years and is it materially worth a whole lot? No. it’s just worth something to me. But I -- little things like that that I enjoy. I was curious if you had any of those little things like that. you mentioned the ring but that’s interesting because it’s really -- if you get down to it and there’s a big fire or a big flood and you’re going to lose everything or virtually everything other than what you can carry in the palm of your hand; I always like to ask people what would that be because it really sort of defines a lot of things about you. Natalie: It does. And you know what? the things that nobody can ever take away from you or be lost is memories, experiences and the people and the relationships that you have so that’s the most valuable thing in my life right now and the reason I’m even back home in New Zealand right now is my dad was in the hospital and it was incredible to just see how I dropped everything. I finally had plans to stay in Portugal for a few months which is quite a long time for me and I was really loving it. I’d actually bought a scooter for the first time, I was doing Portuguese lessons. I was actually trying to integrate into society a little and enjoying it and I just dropped everything to come back here because family, friends are just so much more important than anything else that you could ever own. So experiences as I said and memories that can never be taken away from you and they’re worth millions of dollars in my mind. Nile: Yeah. No. I would agree with you. Other than the fact that I’m getting a little bit older and some of those memories fade. I’m not sure you can -- Natalie: Yeah. That’s true. You need to write a book maybe. You need to write a book. Nile: Yeah. That might be it. I’ll have to read it to remind myself. That’s all. Natalie: Yeah. Nile: Well, again, I want to go back to the promotion and I want to go back to the promotion because when -- you typically promote to a community and you typically build that community from people that you know, like and trust or people that know, like and trust you. so as you’re traveling around the world obviously you’re meeting a lot of people but that marketing gets to be challenging and I think you have an interesting take on it which is I guess why I wanted to get there. It’s certainly not what I want people to focus on with the interview with Natalie here but I think you’ve got some interesting takes on it so what -- how do people get to know you? Natalie: That’s a great question. I mean, I think you touched on it earlier. It was a really lovely compliment. I’m pretty open, I’m very transparent and recently I was in Berlin and I held a meet up there with my community and one of the guys from Netherlands said oh, you’re just like you sound like on your podcast and you look like in your videos and you’re just you. And he’s like we thought you’d look like a celebrity when you walk in and we’re all -- but no. but you came straight over and talked to us. And I was like well, what did  you expect me to do? So I think people get to know the real me if they ask the right questions for sure. As you said, I meet people all the time every single day and it can be overwhelming to remember every single person you’ve met but some people you just really connect with and those ones that usually share a curiosity and love for life. They ask intelligent, smart questions. You have discussions over all sorts of topics and from there you forge friendships and you actually make an effort to keep in touch and I’ve met up with several people around the world in two or three different countries. It’s kind of becoming a theme with some of my good friends is to see how many places we can meet up with around the world and share more experiences and good times so people just have to ask and get in touch. Nile: Well, one of the things I guess I was going on was you do an awful lot of your business on social media and social media I think has become a little bit of cornerstone in your business. But it’s social at the same time. So I -- at least from what I could see a lot of people that get to know you and a lot of your marketing for that matter is social media based. Natalie: Absolutely. Yeah. Precisely. So I’m anywhere and everywhere on social media because I love it and it’s how I built my business so very, very important and has allowed me to just have my unique voice and be who I am and people really connect that way. I think they feel they can reach out on Twitter, through Facebook messages and Periscope which I’ve started using and through my blog and podcast and all of it has just helped to build an engaged audience and community of -- I call freedom fighters who get what journey I’m on and want to be on a similar journey but on their own unique path. Nile: Do you find that there are people that engage with you and you mentioned that engagement. That’s one of the things that we talk about quite a bit because you could do a lot of things and a lot of big marketing programs that people do but unless you engage it just doesn’t matter. But do you find that there are a lot of people that engage with you and that initial part of the engagement is following you to really build their belief that this could really be done? I mean, are they -- do they question that can she really do this and this is the way she lives her life and they follow you and find out that maybe it is? Natalie: I think that people have told me a lot in the past that they live through me vicariously until they can take their own leap of faith and build their own freedom plan. So yeah. I think that’s a huge part of it and why I like to live and breathe my brand and I do show it. I mean, obviously it is possible. There are some people who may be cut out to be entrepreneurs perfectly but it doesn’t mean that they can live the lifestyle that has more freedom or they couldn’t incorporate more of those things into their daily life so I love to -- I’m all about taking action and showing what’s practical and implementing so people who like that and actually want to get something done, not just talk about it generally are the type of people who -- I'm in their lives and they're in mine if that makes any sense. And you do start to attract a certain kind of person. I’ve seen that with big brands online how often men will attract men of a similar age or women will attract women who were into that particular topic or thing that they’re talking about. So I’m pretty sure I attract some weird ass awesome people who want to achieve all sorts of different things and travel the world or even just stay at home but experience more adventure. Yeah. Nile: Before I transition to sort of the heavy question I have to ask one of the light questions. Whenever you travel a lot you come up with some different strange stories. And you and I were talking a little bit before the interview about some of the strange stories and you said well, so many things happen to me I don’t even know where to go. And I have to give you an example because -- and just like me I’m sure that you have hundreds if not thousands of these stories but I got stuck in an airport and they gave us meal vouchers. Not an uncommon thing. And so the only thing that was open was a little sundry shop and you could go in and get cookies, crackers, potato chips and drinks or whatever. That was going to be dinner so I went in and I got a box of cookies and I knew that I didn’t need the whole box of cookies and if anybody looks at my social media profile you’ll know I didn’t need the box of cookies either but nevertheless I got a box of cookies and something to drink and I was reading the paper and I opened up -- reach in my bag and I open up the box of cookies and I pull out a cookie and I have one and there’s a little boy playing there and he’s probably four or five years old. And he comes over and he reaches in and gets one of the cookies and I go well, that’s sort of interesting. He didn’t ask or anything and his mom just looks up and smiles at me and so at this point in time I’m reaching in and getting a cookie and he’s reaching in and getting a cookie. And we go on like this until the last cookie of the box comes out. And I pull out that last cookie and his bottom lip comes out and starts that quiver. And I’m going what? I’m just eating my cookies here. And his mom doesn’t say one word to me. She reaches over and she takes the cookie from me and she breaks it in two and she gives him half and me half. And I’m going wow. I’m a little bit blown away by this but I really don’t need the whole box of cookies but I was just looking at it from -- there was no discussion and it was my box of cookies and all of that. And so we get ready to load the plane finally and we get on the plane and I go in and sit down and I open up my briefcase and in my briefcase was my box of cookies. And so I realize I’d been eating his box of cookies the whole time. Gives you a little bit of a paradigm shift there. I reached across the aisle and the mom and the kid were there and I gave her my box of cookies back -- or my box of cookies and we just both laughed because both of us were like well, this is interesting. But that’s just -- hey, I’ve got hundreds of stories like that. But I bet you’ve got even more. So I’m going to put you on the spot. I need some of your stories. Natalie: Well, I’d say -- I mean, I’ve got some pretty funny ones. I tend not to attract too much drama into my life so I’m sure what other people would tell a tantalizing tale about -- I just kind of take in my stripe but probably one of the most significant and it was pretty scary at the time and ridiculous afterwards. In Vietnam a year and a half ago and I’d actually just been -- I’d won over the role of being an editor for a book for startups in Asia and I’ve been editing this book about Vietnam for entrepreneurs so I’ve been learning tons about the culture and the way in which they do business but also the safety of the country, the communication, the political setup and I remember writing about this particular area of Ho Chi Minh City where you shouldn’t really stand as a tourist and it’s notorious for theft and you have to be careful and you should catch taxis and I’ve just come back on a six and a half hour bus ride from Mui Ne. I’ve been on the coast and I’ve been enjoying some beach time and relaxation and a digital sabbatical. Time offline. And I got back into the capital and got off the bus and I knew that my hotel was only a five minute walk away because I’ve been there before and the taxi driver’s like you want a life? And I was like no. no, I’m good. I’m going to walk because I’ve just been on a bus for six and a half hours and I’m walking along with my suitcase in my hand. Obviously rolling it along. And I had my laptop bag with every single thing in it tied around the handle of the suitcase and I’m looking at my phone which I’m holding pretty firmly in my hand but I’m looking at the map to go yeah. I think it’s this way and not that way. And out of nowhere comes this scooter like a sort of a very, very quiet scooter motorbike, two guys on it and then they suddenly speed up and I’m like totally off in my own world. I’m tired and I’m jetlagged and I’m looking at this phone. And they just came by and they grabbed my laptop strap out of my -- like off my shoulder. And just sped on and I just remember spinning around and shouting out no and watching my entire life like speed off down this street and I started running after -- I wouldn’t have had any chance in hell of catching them but all I could see was my purple suitcase and my laptop bag and everything just gone and I start running towards them like yelling going darn you. And they dropped it. they dropped the whole thing because what had happened as I -- one thing that I did as a safety move was I attached as I said my laptop loosely, the strap around the suitcase handle and so by grabbing a laptop bags that also hooked to my suitcase and it was just too heavy and they couldn’t get away with it. So then some respects I was -- I just stood there and went oh my god. My suitcase just saved my life because I had my passport in there, all my money, my hard drive, my computer, everything. I hadn’t even split anything out onto myself. Normally I will hide like another card somewhere else or I just won't have everything in one place and also it was the only time that I put a jumper in my laptop bag. I don’t know why. Sort of a jacket which padded the fall when it fell down so my laptop didn’t smash. Nothing got broken. It was incredible. And I just remember standing there going you are an idiot. Like you wrote about this in a book and here you are standing in the exact place. I’d even crossed over the road to be on the quiet side so there wasn’t anybody around for once which is pretty not common in Vietnam and yeah. It was incredible. So that was my story that I got everything back and I felt ridiculously lucky and fortunate to have all my stuff back and be alive. Nile: Well, it’s always interesting when we get those reminders like that too. Now, you teased everybody with a story about coming back into Australia and making a joke that maybe wasn’t a good joke so we can't let that story go either. Natalie: Oh, yeah. That was just another wonderful moment where sometimes my sense of humor which we talked about before doesn't go down so well. So I was waiting for a flight out of Sydney. This was back when I was in the corporate world and I was waiting in line to actually just check in on the flight and this guy came up to me, a security guy and he’s like ma’am do you mind if I check your bags? And I was like no. That’s fine. Go ahead. But can I ask you what you’re checking for. And I knew what he was checking for but I just wanted to make conversation because frankly I’ve been on the airport for a while and it was a bit boring. He’s like I’m checking for any explosives. And I was like well, you’re not going to find them there. I’ve got them strapped right here and I pointed at my chest. And I was wearing quite a fitted top so it was clearly obvious that I didn’t have anything strapped under there and I thought it was hilarious and he just -- that’s a federal offense ma’am. I could have you arrested right here on the spot. I’m not going to but that was stupid. Don’t do it again. And I was like okay. The more people that I told about that -- they were just like Natalie what were you thinking? Like what an idiotic move. So every so often even as a frequent traveler you do do some pretty stupid things. Nile: See what lack of sleep could do to a person. Well listen, we don’t have a huge amount of time yet but one of the things that I’d love to talk about if it’s okay -- in your book you talk about the three stages of building a freedom lifestyle business and I found that fascinating and I don’t know if I could indulge you but would you mind sharing those with us? Natalie: Absolutely. So _____45:01 is not surprising. The first stage is the -- I think the hardest one for people to get their head around. It’s the freedom mindset so once you do have a business or a career that affords you a little bit more flexibility a lot of people really struggle with oh, that means I don’t necessarily have to work a normal working week nine to five. I can take more time off, I can take a mid week weekend. I don’t have to be based in an office. I don’t have to have clients that are in the same location as me so it’s that -- there’s a lot more to it. There’s also dealing with friends and family which we’ve talked about here and really getting clear on your vision for how you would like to live so that freedom mindset is the first stage that I take people through. the second stage is financial freedom which really comes down to how you’re setting up a business or a career so that you have enough revenue and enough income to afford you a great lifestyle but also not tie you down; your revenue streams that you have allowing you to be flexible in what you do; how active or passively do you want to be involved in the work that you do as well. so that’s all the nuts and bolts of building an online business, the business model, the social media aspect and strategy, your sales funnel, outsourcing, systems etcetera. And the final part is lifestyle freedom. So what sort of a lifestyle do you want? how are you going to live, how often do you want to travel, how much time do you want to be spending at home, what does that look like to you, how do you travel, how do you pack lightly. Really talking about minimalism as well and how do you get rid of a lot of those possessions that are weighing you down to be more free. Nile: I like that travel hack. I noticed you’ve got a few interesting terms like travel hack and digital nomad and things like that. Natalie: Yeah. I don’t make them up but they’re quite common in my world. But for people who’ve just heard them for the first time they’re like oh, digital nomad. I like that. And I’m like yeah. I didn’t make it up. Nile: Well, that is quite alright. I know that you’ve got an awful lot to share with people. We will have the links up on our website and it will be on social media business hour. Episode 119. But can you tell a little bit of -- the listeners -- share with us what you have and what you do and how people could engage with you? Natalie: Yeah. So a little bit more about kind of how I run my business or what I have on offer? Nile: What do you have that you offer people so that they could learn to do what you do and sort of roam around the world and be fun and fancy free. Natalie: Well, most of what I do actually is free for people which is great. So I do have a blog at the suitcaseentrepreneur.com and I have a twice weekly podcast which is also free on iTunes. And the Suitcase entrepreneur all within the branding. The book which is really, really affordable on Amazon and just a ton of stuff that I put out there free. I do webinars, I do -- I’m starting to do more Periscopes and I just love teaching people and sharing how they can do this for themselves. And then I have digital products that I sell on my site that are all related to building an online business and also using crowd funding to sort of kick start your business if you need. And my most definitive program that I’m really excited about launched last year which is my main stand. Every single piece of advice and experience and learning has gone into it. It’s the Freedom plan and you touched on the three stages. There’s what basically makes up the Freedom plan so it’s 12 modules. There’s a lot more to it than that but essentially I take people through those three stages with 12 modules of online learning, support and community involved and that’s my baby that I’m really wanting to get more and more people through because I’m starting to see incredible results that people are getting. And as I said, I think it’s like everything that I’ve accumulated over my entire lifetime but also five years in business to help people do this for themselves. Nile: Well, I can't recommend highly enough. As I said, you’ve got a five star rated book. When you look at all of the ratings on Amazon. The Suitcase entrepreneur. I recommend that. We’ve got that available as a link on the show notes as well for episode 119. And I have to say I’ve got the privilege -- I like all of the pictures on your website and everything like that but one of the pictures that just says freedom to me is your Skype picture and I’m not sure that everybody gets to see your Skype picture. Natalie: Oh, does it? I should look at it. Oh, that one. Nile: Yeah. Well, you’re up high. I don’t know if it’s a mountain top. I’ll call it a hill top. But beautiful scenery behind you. There you are with a great smile and two thumbs up and to me that just says freedom in a really great way so I love it. Natalie: That’s true. I should probably put that one out. That was actually a panorama looking across the _____49:51 it reminded me of the hobbit’s land and Middle Earth because it’s just so beautiful so maybe I’ll incorporate that into my blog. Nile: It needs to be because it really is a great picture that says freedom in a big way. But Natalie I would like to thank you so much for joining all of us today on the social media business hour. And for our listeners, I want to thank you too. Hopefully you learned a few new ideas or concepts. Maybe a dream got started. Maybe you were just reminded of a few things that you already know but you haven’t been doing to improve or grow your business or your life. Our desire is you take just one of the things that you learned or were reminded of today and you apply it this week to your life or business. We know that a small change can make a big difference and I’m committed to bringing you at least one new idea each week that you could implement so go back and identify just one small change that you could make to your business or your life this week and see what a big difference it will make for you. So until next week, this is Nile Nickel. Now, go make it happen. Woman: Social media business hour is powered by linkedinfocus.com. For show notes, updates and to pick up the latest tips and tricks head over to socialmediabusinesshour.com. Until next time. Thanks for listening. [/content_toggle] Weblinks: Facebook: http://facebook.com/suitcaseentrepreneurTwitter: @nataliesisson Related Books: