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Visual Builder Studio requires its data sources to connect to the webpage it produces using REST calls. Therefore, the data source has to provide a REST interface. A simple, easy, secure, and free way to do that is with Oracle REST Data Services (ORDS).   In this episode, hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham chat with Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald about what ORDS can do, how to easily set it up, how to work with it, and how to use it within Visual Builder Studio.   Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/develop-fusion-applications-using-visual-builder-studio/122614/   Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/build-visual-applications-using-oracle-visual-builder-studio/110035/   Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/   X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode.   --------------------------------------------------------   Episode Transcript:   00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26   Nikita: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor with Oracle University, and with me is Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs.   Lois: Hi there! In our last episode, we took a look at model-based development tools, their start as CASE tools, what they morphed into, and how they're currently used in Oracle software development. We're wrapping up the season with this episode today, which will be about how to access Oracle database data through a REST interface created and managed by Oracle REST Data Services, or ORDS, and how to access this data in Visual Builder Studio.   01:03 Nikita: Being able to access Oracle database data through a REST interface over the web is highly useful, but sometimes it can be complicated to create that interface in a programming language. Joe Greenwald, our Senior OCI Learning Solutions Architect and Principal Instructor is back with us one last time this season to tell us more about ORDS, and how it makes it much simpler and easier for us to REST-enable our database for use in tools like Visual Builder Studio. Hi Joe! Tell us a little about what Visual Builder Studio is and why we must REST-enable our data for VBS to be able to use it.   01:40 Joe: Hi Niki, hi Lois! Ok, so, Visual Builder Studio is Oracle's low-code software development and project asset management product for creating graphical webpage front-ends for web applications. It's the tool of choice for designing, building, and implementing all of Oracle Fusion Cloud Applications and is being used by literally tens of thousands of engineers at Oracle now to bring the next generation of Fusion Applications to our customers and the market. It's based on standards like HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. It's highly performant and combined with the Redwood graphical design system and components that we talked about previously, delivers a world-class experience for users. One thing about Visual Builder Studio though: it only works with data sources that have a REST interface. This is unusual. I like to think I've worked with every software development tool that Oracle's created since I joined Oracle in 1992, including some unreleased ones, and all of them allowed you to talk to the database directly. This is the first time that we've released a tool that I know of where we don't do that. Now at first, I was a little put off and wondered how's it going to do this and how much work I would have to do to create a REST interface for some simple tables in the Oracle database. Like, here's one more thing I must do just to create a page that displays data from the database. As it turns out, it's a wise design decision on the part of the designers. It simplifies the data access parts of Visual Builder Studio and makes the data access model common across the different data sources. And, thanks to ORDS, REST-enabling data in Oracle database couldn't be easier! 03:13 Lois: That's cool. We don't want to focus too much on Visual Builder Studio today. We have free courses that teach you how to create service connections to REST services to access the data and all of that. What we actually want to talk with you about is working with Oracle REST Data Service. How easy is it to work with Oracle REST Data Service to add REST support, what we call REST-enable your Oracle Database, and why it is important?  Nikita: Yeah, I could use a bit of a refresher on REST myself. Could you describe what REST is, how it works for both the client and server, and what ORDS is doing for us? 03:50 Joe: Sure. So, REST is a way to make a request to a server for a resource using the HTTP web protocol from a client, like your browser, to a web server, which hands off the request to code that handles the request and sends the response back to your client/browser, which then uses it, displays or whatever. So, you can see we have two parts. We have the client, which makes the request, and the server, which handles the request and figures out what the response should be (static, dynamic, or a combination of both) and sends that back to the client. For example, a visual application built with Visual Builder Studio acts as a client making the request, just as your browser makes a request. It's really just a web app built with HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript, and the JavaScript makes a request to the server on your behalf. Let's say you wish to access your student record within Oracle University. And now, this is a contrived example and it won't actually work, but it's good for illustrative purposes.  Oracle University, let's say, publishes the URL for your student data as something like https://oracle.com/oracleuniversity/student/{studentnumber} you put in some kind of number, like the number 23, and if you enter that into your browser address bar and press Enter, then your browser, on your behalf, sends a GET request—what we call an HTTP GET operation—to the web server. When the web server receives the request, it will somehow read the record for student 23, format a response, and send the response back to the client. 05:16 Joe: That's a GET or a READ request. Now, what if you are creating a new student? Well, you fill out a form on the webpage and you click the Submit button. And it sends a POST request, which tells the server to create a new record in its storage mechanism, most likely a database of some form. If you do an update, you change certain fields on the webpage and click the Submit button and this time, an update request is made. If you wanted to delete the record, you'd find the record you want to delete and press the Submit button, and this time a delete request is made. This is the general idea, though there are different ways to do creates and updates that are really irrelevant here. Those requests to the server I mentioned are called HTTP operations and there are several of them. But the four most popular are GET to retrieve data, POST to create a new record on the server, PUT to update a record, and DELETE to remove a record.  On the client side, we just need to specify where the record is that we want to retrieve—that's the oracle.com/oracleuniversity/student part of the URL and an identifying value, which makes it unique. So, when I do a GET request on customer or student 23, I'm going to get back a representation of the student data that exists in the student database for a student with ID 23. There should not be more than one of these or that would indicate an error. The response typically comes back in a format of a key:value pair called JavaScript Object Notation (JSON), but it could also be in a Text format, HTML, Excel, PDF, or whatever the server implements and is requested.  06:42 Nikita: OK great! That's on the client side making the request. But what's happening on the server side? Do I need to worry about that if I'm the client? Joe: No, that's the great part. As a client, I don't know, and frankly I'd rather not know what the server's doing or how it does it. I don't want to be dependent on the server implementation at all. I simply want to make a request and the server handles the request and sends a response. Now, just a word about what's on the server. Some data on the server is static like a PDF file or an image or an audio file, for example, and sometimes you'll see that in the URL the file type as an extension, like .pdf, and you get back a PDF file that your browser displays or that you can download to your machine. But with dynamic data, like student data coming out of a database based on the student number, a query is made against a database. The database responds with the data, and that's formatted into some type of data format—typically JSON—and sent back to the client, which then does something with it, like displaying it on a webpage. So, as we can see, the client is fairly simple in the sense that it makes a request, receives the data response, and displays it or does something with it. And that's one of the reasons why the choice to use REST and only REST in Visual Builder Studio is such a wise one. 07:54 Joe: Regardless of the different data sources or the different server implementations or how the data is stored on the server, or any of that, Visual Builder Studio doesn't know and doesn't care. What it sees is the REST request it sends and the response it gets back and then it deals with the response data regardless of how it's implemented on the server. I mentioned the server sends back a representation of the resource, in this case, for example, the student record. That's really where the abbreviation REST comes from: REpresentational State Transformation, which is a long way of saying, bring me back a representation of the resource—the thing—that I'm requesting. Now, of course, the server is a little more complex. On the server side, we would need software that is going to take the request from the web server using some programming language like Java, C#, C++, Python, or maybe even JavaScript in a Node.js application. You have a program that receives a request from the web server, executes the request (typically by connecting to the database if it's a database call), makes the request, receives a data response from the database, formats that into some form, and passes it back to the web server, which then sends it back to the client that requested it. 09:01 Lois: Ok… I think I see. I'm guessing that ORDS gets involved somehow between the client and the server. Joe: Yes, exactly. We can see that the implementation on the server side is where the complexity is. For example, if I implement a student management service in Java, I have to write a bunch of Java code, a lot of which is boilerplate, housekeeping, boring code. For simple database access, it's tedious to have to do this over and over, and if the database changes, it can be even more tedious to maintain that code to handle simple to moderately complex requests. Writing and maintaining software code to just read and write data from the database to pass to a client for a web request is cool the very first time you do it and then gets boring very quickly and it's prone to errors because it's so manual. So, it would be nice if we had a piece of software that could handle the tedious, boring, manual bits of this service. It would receive the request that our client, the browser or Visual Builder Studio for example, is sending, take that request, execute the request against the database for us, receive the response from the database, and then format it for us and send it back to us, without a developer having to write custom code on the server side. And that is what Oracle REST Data Services (ORDS) does. 10:13 Joe: ORDS contains a lightweight web server based on the Jetty web server that receives the request from the client, like a browser or Visual Builder Studio or whatever, in the form of a URL, parses the request, generates a query or an update, or an insert or delete, depending on the nature of the HTTP operation sent or requested, and sends it to the database on our behalf. The database executes the request from ORDS, sends back a response to ORDS, and ORDS formats the response for us in the JSON and sends it back to our client. In nutshell, that's it. 10:45 Lois: So ORDS does all that? And it's free? How does it work? Uhm, remember I'm not as technical as you are. Joe: Of course. ORDS is free. It's a lightweight, highly performant Java app that can run in many different modes, from stand-alone on a server to embedded in an application server like WebLogic, to running in the Oracle Cloud with the Oracle Autonomous Database (ADB). When you REST-enable your tables, your web requests are intercepted by ORDS running in ADB. It's optimized for the purpose of handling web requests, connecting to the Oracle database, and sending back formatted responses as JSON. It can also handle more complex requests as well in the form of queries with special parameters.  So, you can see what ORDS does for us. It handles the request coming from the client, which could be a browser or Visual Builder Studio or APEX or whatever client—pretty much any client today can make an HTTP call—it handles the call, parses the request, makes the request to the server on our behalf, and of course security is built-in and all of that, and so we don't get to data we're not supposed to see. It receives a response from the database, formats it into the JSON key:value pair format, and sends it back to our client. 12:00 Are you planning to become an Oracle Certified Professional this year? Whether you're a seasoned IT pro or just starting your career, getting certified can give you a significant boost. And don't worry, we've got your back. Join us at one of our cert prep live events in the Oracle University Learning Community. You'll get insider tips from seasoned experts and learn from other professionals' experiences. Plus, once you've earned your certification, you'll become part of our exclusive forum for Oracle-certified users. So, what are you waiting for? Head over to mylearn.oracle.com and create an account to jump-start your journey towards certification today! 12:43 Nikita: Welcome back. So, Joe, then the next question is, what do we do to REST-enable our database? Does that only work for ADB? Joe: This can be done in a couple of different ways. It can be done implicitly, called AutoREST, or explicitly. AutoREST is very convenient. In the case of an ADB database, you log in as the user who owns the structures, select your tables, views, packages, procedures, or functions that you want to REST-enable. Choose REST and then Enable from the menu for the table, view, stored package, procedure, or function and a URL is generated using your POST, GET, PUT, and DELETE for the standard database create, retrieve, update, delete operations. And it's not just for ADB. You can do this in SQL Developer Desktop as well. Then, when you invoke the URL for the service, if you include just the name of the resource, like students, you get the entire collection back. If you add an ID at the end of the URL, like student/23, you get back the data for that specific student back, or whatever the structure is. You can add more complex filter parameters as well. And that's it! Very easy. And, of course, you can apply appropriate security and ORDS enforces it.  But you also can create custom code to handle more complex requests.  13:53 Lois: Joe, what if there's custom logic or processing that you want to do when the REST call comes in and you need to write custom code to handle it? Joe: Remember, I said on the server side, we use custom code to retrieve data as well as apply business rules, validations, edits, whatever needs to be done to appropriately handle the REST call. So it's a great question, Lois. When using ORDS, you can write a REST service handler in PL/SQL and SQL, just like if you were writing a stored procedure or a function or a package in the database, which is exactly what you're doing. ORDS exposes your PL/SQL code wrapped in a REST interface with, of course, the necessary security. And since it's PL/SQL, it runs in the database, so it's highly performant, fast, and uses code you're likely already familiar with or maybe already have. Your REST service handler can call existing PL/SQL packages, procedures, and functions. For example, if you created packages with stored procedures and functions that wrap access to your database tables and views, you can REST-enable those stored procedures, functions, and packages, and call them over the web. And maintain the package access you already created. I do want to point out that the recommended way to access your tables and views is through packages, stored procedures, and functions. While you can expose your tables and views directly to REST, should you really do that? In practice, it's generally not a recommended way to do it. Do you want to expose your data in tables and views directly through a REST interface? Ideally, no, access should be through a PL/SQL wrapper, same as it's—hopefully—done today for your client-server applications. 15:26 Nikita: I understand it's easy to generate a simple REST interface for tables and so on to do basic create, retrieve, update, and delete operations. But what's required to create custom code to handle more complex business operations?  Joe: The process to create your own custom handlers is a little bit more involved as you would expect. It uses your skills as a PL/SQL programmer, while hiding the details of the REST implementation to let you focus on the logic and processing. Mechanically, you'd begin by creating a module that has a URL associated with it. So, for example, you would create a URL like https://oracle.com/oracleuniversity/studentregistry. Then, within that module, you create a template that names the specific resource—or thing—that you want to work with. For example, student, or course, or registration. 16:15 Joe: Then you create the handler for it. You have a handler to do the read, another handler for the insert, another handler for an update, another handler for a delete, and even possibly multiple handlers for more complex APIs based on your needs and the parameters being passed in.  You can create complex URLs with multiple parameters for passing needed information into the PL/SQL procedure, which is going to do the actual programming work for you. There are predefined implicit variables about the message itself that you can use, as well as all the parameters from the URL itself. Now, this is all done in a nice developer interface on the web if you're using SQL Developer Web with ADB or in SQL Developer for the desktop. Either one can do this because under the covers, ORDS is generating and executing the PL/SQL calls necessary to create and expose your web services. It's very easy to work with and test immediately. 17:06 Lois: Joe, how much REST knowledge do I need to use ORDS properly to create REST services? Joe: Well, you should have some basic knowledge of REST, HTTP operations, request and response messages, and JSON, since this is the data format ORDS produces. The developer interface is really not designed for somebody who knows nothing about REST at all; it's not designed to take them step-by-step through everything that needs to be done. It's not wizard-based. Rather, it's an efficient, minimal interface that can be used quickly and easily by someone who has at least some experience building REST services. But, if you have a little knowledge and you understand how REST works and how a REST interface is used and you understand PL/SQL and SQL, you could do quite a lot with only minimal knowledge. It's easy to get started and it's fun to see your data start appearing in webpages formatted for you, with very little or even no code at all as in the case of AutoREST enabling. And ORDS is free and comes as part of the database in ADB as SQL Developer Web and SQL Developer Desktop, both of which are free as well. And SQL Developer Web and SQL Developer Desktop both have a data modeler built into them so you can model your database tables, columns, and keys, and generate and execute the code necessary to create the structures immediately, and they can create graphical models of your database to aid in understanding and communication. Now, while this is not required, modeling your database structures before you build them is most definitely a best practice. 18:29 Nikita: Ok, so now that I have my REST-enabled database tables and all, how do I use them in VBS Designer? Joe: In Visual Builder Studio Designer, you define a service connection by its endpoint and paste the URL for the REST-enabled resource into the wizard, and it generates everything for you by introspecting the REST service. You can test it, see the data shape of the response, and see data returned. You access your REST-enabled data from your database from Visual Builder Studio Designer and use it to populate lists, tables, and forms using the quick start wizards built in. I'll also mention that ORDS provides other capabilities in addition to handling REST calls for the database tables and views. It also exposes over 500 different endpoints for managing your Oracle Database, things like Pluggable Database Management (PDBs), Data Pump, Data Dictionary, Performance, and Monitoring. It's very easy to use and get started with. A great place to start is to create a free, autonomous database in Oracle Cloud, start it up, and then access the database actions. You can start creating tables, columns, and keys, and loading data, or you can load your own scripts, if you've got them, to produce the tables and columns and load them. You can upload the script and run it and it will create your tables and other needed structures. You can then REST-enable them by selecting simple menu options. It's a lot of fun and easy to get started with. 19:47 Lois: So much good stuff today. Thank you, Joe, for being with us today and in the past few weeks and sharing your knowledge with us. Nikita: Yeah, it's been so nice to have you around. Joe: Thank you both! It's been great being here with you. 19:59 Lois: And remember, our Visual Builder courses, Develop Visual Applications with VBS and Develop Fusion Apps with VBS, both show you how to work with a third-party REST service. And our data modeling and design course teaches the fundamentals of data modeling. You can access all these of courses, for free, on mylearn.oracle.com. Join us next week for another episode of the Oracle University Podcast. Until then, I'm Lois Houston… Nikita: And Nikita Abraham signing off! 20:30 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) tools, which helped make the analysis, design, and implementation phases of software development better, faster, and cheaper, fell out of favor in the mid-'90s. Yet much of what they have to offer remains and is in active use within different Oracle tools.   Listen to Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham interview Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald about the origins of CASE tools and model-based development, as well as how they evolved into their current forms.   Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/develop-fusion-applications-using-visual-builder-studio/122614/   Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/build-visual-applications-using-oracle-visual-builder-studio/110035/   Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community   LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/   X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu   Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode.   ---------------------------------------------------------   Episode Transcript:   00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26   Nikita: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor with Oracle University, and joining me is Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs.   Lois: Hi there! In our last episode, we looked at Oracle's Redwood design system and how it helps create world-class apps and user experiences. Today, Joe Greenwald, our Senior Principal OCI Instructor, is back on our podcast. We're going to focus on where model-based development tools came from: their start as CASE tools, how they morphed into today's model-based development tools, and how these tools are currently used in Oracle software development to make developers' lives better.   01:08 Nikita: That's right. It's funny how things that fell out of favor years ago come back and are used to support our app development efforts today. Hi Joe!   Joe: Haha! Hi Niki. Hi Lois.
 01:18 Lois: Joe, how did you get started with CASE tools?    Joe: I was first introduced to computer-aided software engineering tools, called CASE tools, in the late 1980s when I began working with them at Arthur Young consulting and then Knowledgeware corporation in Atlanta, helping customers improve and even automate their software development efforts using structured analysis and design techniques, which were popular and in high use at that time. But it was a pain to have to draw diagrams by hand, redraw them as specifications changed, and then try to maintain them to represent the changes in understanding what we were getting from our analysis and design phase work. CASE tools were used to help us draw the pictures as well as enforce rules and provide a repository so we could share what we were creating with other developers. I was immediately attracted to the idea of using diagrams and graphical images to represent requirements for computer systems.  02:08 Lois: Yeah, you're like me. You're a visual person. Joe: Yes, exactly. So, the idea that I could draw a picture and a computer could turn that into executable code was fascinating to me. Pictures helped us understand what the analysts told us the users wanted, and helped us communicate amongst the teams, and they also helped us validate our understanding with our users. This was a critical aspect because there was a fundamental cognitive disconnect between what the users told the analysts they needed, what the analysts told us the users needed, and what we understood was needed, and what the user actually wanted. There's a famous cartoon, you can probably find this on the web, that shows what the users wanted, what was delivered, and then all the iterations that the different teams go through trying to represent the simple original request.   I started using entity relationship diagrams, data flow diagrams, and structure charts to support the structured analysis, design, and information engineering methods that we were using at the time for our clients. Used correctly, these were powerful tools that resulted in higher quality systems because it forced us to answer questions earlier on and not wait until later in the project life cycle, when it's more expensive and difficult to make changes. 03:16 Nikita: So, the idea was to try to get it wrong sooner. Joe: That's right, Niki. We wanted to get our analysis and designs in front of the customer as soon as possible to find out what was wrong with our models and then change the code as early in the life cycle as possible where it was both easier and, more importantly, cheaper to make changes before solidifying it in code.   Of course, the key words here are “used correctly,” right? I saw the tools misused many times by those who weren't trained properly or, more typically, by those whose software development methodology, if there even was one, didn't use the tools properly—and of course the tools took the blame. CASE tools at the time held a lot of promise, but one could say vendors were overpromising and under delivering, although I did have a number of clients who were successful with them and could get useful support for their software development life cycle from the use of the tools. Since then, I've been very interested in using tools to make it easier for us to build software.   04:09 Nikita: So, let me ask you Joe, what is your definition of a CASE tool?
 Joe: I'm glad you asked, Niki, because I think many people have many different definitions. I'm precise about it, and maybe even a bit pedantic with the definition. The definition I use for a CASE tool comprises four things. One, it uses graphics, graphical symbols, and diagrams to represent requirements and business rules for the application. Two, there is a repository, either private, or shared, or both, of models, definitions, objects, requirements, rules, diagrams, and other assets that can be shared, reused, and almost more importantly, tracked. Three, there's a rule-base that prevents you from drawing things that can't be implemented. For example, Visio was widely regarded as a CASE tool, but it really wasn't because it had no rules behind it. You could wire together anything you wanted, but that didn't mean it could be built.  Fourth, it generates useful code, and it should do two-way engineering, where code, typically code changed outside the model, can be reverse engineered back into the model and apply updates to the model, and to keep the model and the source code in synchronization.   05:13 Joe: I came up with a good slogan for CASE tools years ago: a good CASE tool should automate the tedious, manual portions of software development. I'd add that one also needs to be smarter than the tools they're using. Which reminds me, interestingly enough, of clients who would pick up CASE tools, thinking that they would make their software development life cycle shorter. But if they weren't already building models for analysis or design, then automating the building of things that they weren't building already was not going to save them time and effort.  And some people adopted CASE tools because they were told to or worse, forced to, or they read an article on an airplane, or had a Eureka moment, and they would try to get their entire software development staff to use this new tool, overnight literally, in some cases. Absolutely sheer madness!  Tools like this need to be brought into the enterprise in a slow, measured fashion with a pilot project and build upon small successes until people start demanding to use the tools in their own projects once they see the value. And each group, each team would use the CASE tool differently and to a different degree. One size most definitely does not fit all and identifying what the teams' needs are and how the tool can automate and support those needs is an important aspect of adopting a CASE tool. It's funny, almost everyone would agree there's value in creating models and, eventually, generating code from them to get better systems and it should be faster and cheaper, etc. But CASE tools never really penetrated the market more than maybe about 18 to 25%, tops.   06:39 Lois: Huh, why? Why do you think CASE tools were not widely accepted and used?   Joe: Well, I don't think it was an issue with the tools so much as it was with a company's software development life cycle, and the culture and politics in the company. And I imagine you're shocked to hear that.  Ideally, switching to or adopting automated tools like CASE tools would reduce development time and costs, and improve quality. So it should increase reusability too. But increasing the reusability of code elements and software assets is difficult and requires discipline, commitment, and investment. Also, there can be a significant amount of training required to teach developers, analysts, project managers, and senior managers how to deal with these different forms of life cycles and artifacts: how they get created, how to manage them, and how to use them. When you have project managers or senior managers asking where's the code and you try telling them, “Well, it's gonna take a little while. We're building models and will press the button to generate the code.” That's tough. And that's also another myth. It was never a matter of build all the models, press the button, generate all the code, and be done. It's a very iterative process. 07:40 Joe: I've also found that developers find it very psychologically reinforcing to type code into the keyboard, see it appear on the screen, see it execute, and models were not quite as satisfying in the same way. There was kind of a disconnect. And are still not today. Coders like to code.   So using CASE tools and the discipline that went along with them often created issues for customers because it could shine a bright light on the, well let's say, less positive aspects of their existing software development process. And what was seen often wasn't pretty. I had several clients who stopped using CASE tools because it made their poor development process highly visible and harder to ignore. It was actually easier for them to abandon the CASE tools and the benefits of CASE tools than to change their internal processes and culture. CASE tools require discipline, planning, preparation, and thoughtful approaches, and some places just couldn't or wouldn't do that. Now, for those who did have discipline and good software development practices, CASE tools helped them quite a bit—by creating documentation and automating the niggly little manual tasks they were spending a lot of time on.   08:43 Nikita: You've mentioned in the past that CASE tools are still around today, but we don't call them that. Have they morphed into something else? And if so, what?   Joe: Ah, so the term Computer Aided Software Engineering morphed into something more acceptable in the ‘90s as vendors overpromised and under-delivered, because many people still saw value and do today see value in creating models to help with understanding, and even automating some aspects of software code development.  The term model-based development arose with the idea that you could build small models of what you want to develop and then use that to guide and help with manual code development. And frankly just not using the word CASE was a benefit. “Oh we're not doing CASE tools, but we'll still build pictures and do stuff.” So, it could be automated and generate useful code as well as documentation. And this was both easy to use and easier to manage, and I think the industry and the tools themselves were maturing. 09:35 Joe: So, model-based development took off and the idea of building a model to represent your understanding of the system became popular. And it was funny because people were saying that these were not CASE tools, this was something different, oh for sure, when of course it was pretty much the same thing: rule-based graphical modeling with a repository that created and read code—just named differently. And as I go through this, it reminds me of an interesting anecdote that's given about US President Abraham Lincoln. He once asked someone, “If you call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?” Now, while you're thinking about that, I'll go ahead and give you the correct answer. It's four. You can call a dog's tail anything you want, but it still has four legs. You can call your tools whatever you want, but you still have the idea of building graphical representations of requirements based on rules, and generating code and engineering in both directions. 10:29 Did you know that Oracle University offers free courses on Oracle Cloud Infrastructure? You'll find training on everything from cloud computing, database, and security to artificial intelligence and machine learning, all free to subscribers. So, what are you waiting for? Pick a topic, leverage the Oracle University Learning Community to ask questions, and then sit for your certification. Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 10:58 Nikita: Welcome back! Joe, how did you come to Oracle and its CASE tools?   Joe: I joined Oracle in 1992 teaching the Oracle CASE tool Designer. It was focused on structured analysis and design, and could generate database Data Definition Language (DDL) for creating databases. And it was quite good at it and could reverse engineer databases as well. And it could generate Oracle Forms and Reports – character mode at first, and then GUI. But it was in the early days of the tool and there was definitely room for improvement, or as we would say opportunities for enhancement, and it could be hard to learn and work with. It didn't do round-trip engineering of reading Oracle Forms code and updating the Designer models, though some of that came later. So now you had an issue where you could generate an application as a starting point, but then you had to go in and modify the code, and the code would get updated, but the models wouldn't get updated and so little by little they'd go out of sync with the code, and it just became a big mess. But a lot of people saw that you could develop parts of the application and data definition in models and save time, and that led to what we call model-based development, where we use models for some aspects but not all. We use models where it makes sense and hand code where we need to code.    12:04 Lois: Right, so the two can coexist. Joe, how have model-based development tools been used at Oracle? Are they still in use?   Joe: Absolutely! And I'll start with my favorite CASE tool at Oracle, uhm excuse me, model-based development tool. Oracle SOA Suite is my idea of a what a model-based development tool should be. We create graphical diagrams to represent the flow of messages and message processing in web services—both SOAP and REST interfaces—with logic handled by other diagrammers and models. We have models for logic, human interaction, and rules processing. All this is captured in XML metadata and displayed as nice, colored diagrams that are converted to source code once deployed to the server. The reason I like it so much is Oracle SOA Suite addressed a fundamental problem and weakness in using modeling tools that generated code. It doesn't let the developer touch the generated code. I worked with many different CASE tools over the years, and they all suffered from a fundamental flaw. Analysts and developers would create the models, generate the code, eventually put it into production, and then, if there was a bug in the code, the developer would fix the code rather than change the model. For example, if a bug was found at 10:30 at night, people would get dragged out of bed to come down and fix things. What they should have done is update the model and then generate the new code. But late at night or in a crunch, who's going to do that, right? They would fix the code and say they'd go back and update the model tomorrow. But as we know, tomorrow never comes, and so little by little, the model goes out of synchronization with the actual source code, and eventually people just stopped doing models. 13:33 Joe: And this just happened more and more until the use of CASE tools started diminishing—why would I build a model and have to maintain it to just maintain the code? Why do two separate things? Time is too valuable. So, the problem of creating models and generating code, and then maintaining the code and not the model was a problem in the industry. And I think it certainly hurt the adoption and progress of CASE tool adoption. This is one of the reasons why Oracle SOA Suite is my favorite CASE tool…because you never have access to the actual generated code. You are forced to change the model to get the new code deployed. Period. Problem solved. Well, SOA Suite does allow post- deployment changes, of course, and that can introduce consistency issues and while they're easier to handle, we still have them! So even there, there's an issue.   14:15 Nikita: How and where are modeling tools used in current Oracle software development applications?   Joe: While the use of CASE tools and even the name CASE fell out of favor in the early to mid-90s, the idea of using graphical diagrams to capture requirements and generate useful code does live on through to today. If you know what to look for, you can see elements of model-based design throughout all the Oracle tools. Oracle tools successfully use diagrams, rules, and code generation, but only in certain areas where it clearly makes sense and in well-defined boundaries. Let's start with the software development environment that I work with most often, which is Visual Builder Studio. Its design environment uses a modeling tool to model relationships between Business Objects, which is customer data that can have parent-child relationships, and represent and store customer data in tables. It uses a form of entity relationship diagram with cardinality – meaning how many of these are related to how many of those – to model parent-child relationships, including processing requirements like deleting children if a parent is deleted.  The Business Object diagrammer displays your business objects and their relationships, and even lets you create new relationships, modify the business objects, and even create new business objects. You can do all your work in the diagram and the correct code is generated. And you can display the diagram for the code that you created by hand. And the two stay in sync. There's also a diagramming tool to design the page and page flow navigation between the pages in the web application itself. You can work in code or you can work in the diagram (either one or both), and both are updated at the same time. Visual Builder Studio uses a lot of two-way design and engineering.   15:48 Joe: Visual Builder Studio Page Designer allows you to work in code if you want to write HTML, JavaScript, and JSON code, or work in Design mode and drag and drop components onto the page designer canvas, set properties, and both update each other. It's very well done. Very well integrated.   Now, oddly enough, even though I am a model-based developer, I find I do most of my work in Visual Builder Studio Designer in the text-based interface because it's so easy to use. I use the diagrammers to document and share my work, and communicate with other team members and customers. While I think it's not being used quite so much anymore, Oracle's JDeveloper and application development framework, ADF, includes built-in tools for doing Unified Modeling Language (UML) modeling. You can create object-oriented class models, generate Java code, reverse engineer Java code, and it updates the model for you. You can also generate the code for mapping Java objects to relational tables. And this has been the heart of data access for ADF Business Components (ADFBC), which is the data layer of Oracle Fusion Apps, for 20 years, although that is being replaced these days. 16:51 Lois: So, these are application development tools for crafting web applications. But do we have any tools like this for the database? Joe: Yes, Lois. We do. Another Oracle tool that uses model-based development functionality is the OCI automated database actions. Here you can define tables, columns, and keys. You can also REST-enable your tables, procedures, and functions.   Oracle SQL Developer for the web is included with OCI or Oracle SQL Developer on the desktop has a robust and comprehensive data modeler that allows you to do full blown entity relationship diagramming and generate code that can be implemented through execution in the database. Now that's actually the desktop version that has the full-blown diagrammer but you also have some of that in the OCI database actions as well. But the desktop version goes further than that. You can reverse engineer the existing database, generate models from it, modify the models, and then generate the delta, the difference code, to allow you to update an existing database structure based on the change in the model. It is very powerful and highly sophisticated, and I do strongly recommend looking at it.  And Oracle's APEX (Application Express) has SQL workshop, where you can see a graphic representation of the tables and the relationships between the tables, and even build SQL statements graphically.    18:05 Nikita: It's time for us to wrap up today but I think it's safe to say that model-based development tools are still with us. Any final thoughts, Joe?   Joe: Well, actually today I wonder why more people don't model. I've been on multiple projects and worked with multiple clients where there's no graphical modeling whatsoever—not even a diagram of the database design and the relationships between tables and foreign keys. And I just don't understand that.   One thing I don't see very much in current CASE or model-based tools is enabling impact analysis. This is another thing I don't see a lot. I've learned, in many years of working with these tools, to appreciate performing impact analysis. Meaning if I make a change to this thing here, how many other places are going to be impacted? How many other changes am I going to have to make? Something like Visual Builder Studio Designer is very good at this. If you make a change to the spelling of a variable let's say in one place, it'll change everywhere that it is referenced and used. And you can do a Find in files to find every place something is used, but it's still not quite going the full hundred percent and allowing me to do a cross-application impact analysis. If I want to change this one thing here, how many other things will be impacted across applications? But it's a start. And I will say in talking to the Visual Builder Studio Architect, he understands the value of impact analysis. We'll see where the tool goes in the future. And this is not a commitment of future direction, of course. It would appear the next step is using AI to listen to our needs and generate the necessary code from it, maybe potentially bypassing models entirely or creating models as a by-product to aid in communication and understanding. We know a picture's worth a 1000 words and it's as true today as it's ever been, and I don't see that going away anytime soon.   19:41 Lois: Thanks a lot, Joe! It's been so nice to hear about your journey and learn about the history of CASE tools, where they started and where they are now.  Joe: Thanks Lois and Niki. Nikita: Join us next week for our final episode of this series on building the next generation of Oracle Cloud Apps with Visual Builder Studio. Until then, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston, signing off! 20:03 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. 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What do you need to start customizing the next generation of Oracle Fusion Apps? How do you create new pages for business processes? What level of expertise do you require for this? Join Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham as they get answers to all these questions and more from Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald. Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/develop-fusion-applications-using-visual-builder-studio/122614/ Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/build-visual-applications-using-oracle-visual-builder-studio/110035/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. -------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this  series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular  Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Last week, we were introduced to Visual Builder Studio and the Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit, also known as JET. Lois: Our friend and Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald is back with us today to talk about how to extend Oracle Cloud Applications that are being built using Visual Builder for its front-end. Nikita: That's right. All Fusion Applications are being redesigned and rebuilt using Visual Builder. And we'll find out more about that from Joe. Hi Joe! Thanks for being with us today. Joe: Hi Lois! Hi Niki! My pleasure to be here. 01:09 Nikita: Joe, tell us a little about what's happening with the redesign and re-architecture of Oracle Cloud Applications using Visual Builder Studio, or VBS. I hear some very exciting changes are coming that are important for our customers and partners. Joe: That's right, Niki. Oracle is redesigning and rebuilding its entire suite of Fusion Cloud Applications, over 330 different products, utilizing over 60,000 engineers — that is “60,” not “16” — at Oracle to develop the next generation of Oracle Fusion Applications. What's most exciting is that the same tools the engineers are using to accomplish this are available to our partners and our customers to use to extend the functionality and capabilities of Fusion Applications to meet their custom needs and processes.  01:54 Lois: That's pretty awesome! We want to use this time today to ask you about extensions, the types of extensions you can create, and how to use Visual Builder Studio to create those extensions. Nikita: Yeah, can we start with you telling us what an extension is? I've gotten the sense that Oracle uses the term extension as both a noun and a verb and that's a bit confusing to me. 02:15 Joe: Yeah, good catch, Niki. Yes, Oracle does use the term extension in two ways: both as a noun and a verb. As a noun, an extension is a container for the code changes that you make to your applications. Basically, it's a Git repository that Oracle creates and manages for you. So, the extension container holds the code changes you make to your page layouts: the fields, their positioning, showing and hiding fields, that sort of thing, as well as page functionality. These code changes you make are stored in the extension and it is this extension with your code changes that is merged with the main Git branch eventually and then deployed using continuous integration/continuous deployment jobs defined in Visual Builder Studio, which manages the project and its assets. Your extension is a Git branch that is an asset of the project. Once your extension code is merged with the main branch and deployed, then the next time someone brings up the application, they'll see the changes you've made in the app. 03:08 Lois: And as a verb? Joe: As a verb, extension means to extend the functionality and the look and feel of the application, though I prefer the term customization or configuration to describe this aspect, as the documentation does, and to avoid confusion, though I'll admit I'm not always consistent about the terms I use. 03:26 Lois: What types of customizations, or extensions, and I'm using the verb now, are available for Fusion Apps in Visual Builder Studio? Joe: There are three different ways Fusion Apps can be customized effectively, configured, or extended. The first way is what we call a basic extension, where you're rearranging hiding, or showing, or moving around fields and sections on the page that have been set up to be extendable by the Fusion Application development teams. Things like hiding fields, showing fields, hiding sections, showing sections…  Nikita: So fairly basic actions… Joe: Yeah exactly and they can be done in Visual Builder Studio Designer by people with minimal VB training, Visual Builder training. And, most recently, if you have access to it, you can do it in the new Express mode, where the page shows you just those things you can work with and just the tools you need to work with the page. This is new and makes it much easier for folks who are not highly technical to make basic changes to the page layout. 04:18 Lois: People like me! That sounds easy enough. Joe: And the next type of extension is more of an intermediate change and requires some training with Visual Builder Studio because you're creating rules that govern the display of layouts based on certain conditions on the page. These are highly flexible, powerful, and useful for creating customized page layouts based on a variety of factors from page size and orientation to the role of the person using it to values in the actual fields on the page itself. These rules can be combined to create complex rule-based conditions that display exactly what the user should see, given the conditions of the page and their role. I would also include making changes to action chains, which execute sequences of behaviors and navigation, and the actual structure of the application, but this is more advanced.  Lastly, is creating mashup applications, which are stand-alone Visual Builder visual applications, which use data from Fusion apps, and customer data sources, like their own database tables, and potentially third-party APIs to create brand new pages and applications with new functionality, new processes, new procedures, new displays, all of which look just like Fusion Applications and use the same data as Fusion applications. 05:27 Lois: Joe, how do I get started if I want to extend a page?  Joe: The easiest way to do it is to open a page in Fusion Applications and then select Edit Page in Visual Builder Studio from the Profile menu. You're then prompted for a project to hold the Git repository for the extension container. And since there's probably already one that exists, after you select the project, an extension Git container is assigned to you. Unless this is the very first time the application has been extended in which case it creates an extension for you. When creating customizations or configurations, we recommend that each application be done in its own separate project. So, for example, if you're working on Customer Experience Sales, you might do it in Project A and if you're working on extensions with HCM, you might do it in Project B. And if you decide to create your own pages and flows in your own app, you might do that in Project C.  06:13 Nikita: But why do you need to do this? Joe: That's just to keep things nice and separate and organized. The tool, Visual Builder Studio, doesn't really care, but it makes for cleaner development and can help with the management of the development teams. 06:23 Nikita: Ok, Joe, I have a question. How do I know if the page I'm on in Fusion Apps can be edited in Visual Builder? I know there are a lot of legacy pages still out there and they can co-exist with the new VB-based pages. Joe: If the URL of the page you're on has the word /Redwood in it instead of /faces, then you know this is a page that was created using Visual Builder Studio and you'll be able to extend it and make changes to it using the Edit in Visual Builder Studio option. So, if you select Edit in Visual Builder Studio, then the page you are on opens inside Visual Builder Studio Designer and you can make changes to any part of the page that has been explicitly enabled for extension by the development team. 07:02 Lois: That's an important part, right? The application is not extendable by default.  Joe: That's right, Lois. It is all locked down and you can't make any changes to it by default. The development team must specifically enable certain parts of the page: sections, fields, layouts, variables, types, action chains, etc. as extendable for you to be able to make changes to it. This ensures the changes the development team makes to the application in the future won't break your extensions. And conversely, the development team can choose to not extend portions that they do not want you to touch or mess with. Then if they do change that bit of the app in the future, it won't break the application and you won't get a big surprise. So, using the Edit page in Visual Builder Studio, you can make both basic changes, like moving, showing, and hiding fields and sections, as well as the more intermediate types of configurations, like using dynamic components to create rule-based layouts that change dynamically based on several conditions such as page size, roles of the user, and field values on the page itself. 08:00 Nikita: What happens if two developers make changes and essentially overwrite each other's customizations — say one hides a field and another later exposes it? Joe: Well, whoever commits their changes and deploys last wins. The other developer's changes get overwritten. So, this is something the team would want to consider carefully. It is possible to roll back to an earlier version if one must. And this can be done in Visual Builder Studio — the part that manages project assets like Git repositories. And there are Oracle blog posts about how to do that if you're interested in learning more. 08:29 Lois: Joe, earlier you mentioned creating new pages and flows, but so far you've only talked about modifying existing extendable pages. How do I create new pages and flows? Joe: In a Visual Builder extension, a set of pages and flows is called an App UI. When I use the terms pages and flows, what I'm talking about is a set of pages that are logically related—whatever logical means to the designer and developer—in a group called a flow that you can navigate between. But you can also navigate between flows and even between applications. So, without getting too technical, each application has a default flow, which has a default page where that flow starts when the app first comes up. So, you can think of an App UI as a collection of flows and their pages, and a URL that accesses the default flow and its default page. That's the page you would see first when accessing that URL. Of course, this can be configured and changed by the developer, as needed. Now, when Oracle creates the original application (for example, digital sales, helpdesk, or something like that), we create an App UI, which contains the pages and flows for that application and is the “entry point” into the app, accessing that App UI's default flow and its default page and then things flow on from there. 09:40 Joe: Partners and customers can create their own application extensions that are dependent on an Oracle application and even create their own App UI – their own sets of pages and flows to accommodate their own processing and workflow needs. This gives them the ability to add their own processes and rules, and still leverage and navigate to the core application that Oracle built. For example, say Oracle delivered digital sales as an Oracle Cloud Application built using Visual Builder to a customer and the customer needs to add a few pages to do some validation or other type of business processing before entering the digital sales application. What the customer does, in this case, is create a new extension of the Oracle Digital Sales app and an App UI of their own, which would be the set of pages and flows that contain the processing they want to start with before then navigating into the digital sales app to use Oracle's application. 10:31 Nikita: Wait, did I hear that correctly? We're creating an extension of an extension or creating an extension on an existing extension? Joe: I know, right? I realize this can sound confusing the first time you hear it or the second time or even the third time. It took me a while to get my head around what they're talking about. Let's start with a Fusion application. In a Fusion application, everything is an extension of something. This is just how the code base and the architecture are organized and how they manage the Git repositories and the code base itself. So, Oracle created a base application called the Unified App. The Unified Application contains the basic page structure and common functionality needed for all applications. For example, it contains the header at the top that has the profile and the footer at the bottom of the page that has that little Ask Oracle icon. 11:16 Joe: Within that page, between the header and the footer, are the pages that are created by the developers, whether they be Oracle engineers or partners or customers. They display the contents of the page with the data and the layouts and all of that. In a sense, you can think of the Unified App as an index page, the starting page of the web application. Though that's not completely true technically, it's good enough for illustrative purposes. So, Oracle starts with the Unified App and then a development team extends that Unified App to build their product. This is how digital sales did it. This is how customer experience did it. This is how helpdesk did it. They start with the Unified App and they extend that and create an App UI that contains the flows and pages for their specific application, and then add functionality for all the pages and flows, as needed for the design. Partners and customers can then create a new extension that extends the Oracle Application and add their own App UI and their own URL if they want their pages accessed first, before navigating to the Oracle application. For example, if the digital sales application has functionality you'd like to leverage, like it has data services or fragments or page layouts that you want to reuse or other things, you extend the digital sales application, and this extension holds your code changes. You could then create a new App UI, and once deployed, users can use that URL for the new App UI to access your new pages. And your page can then navigate to the Oracle app when it needs to. Though I will say to date, we're really not seeing much demand for this particular use case, but it is possible. 12:42 Lois: Is that the only option available to customers and partners—to extend an existing Oracle application? Joe: No, Lois. We're seeing customers and partners create brand new Fusion applications of their own, based on the Unified App Oracle created. In a sense, doing the same thing that our development teams here are doing.  Remember, I said an Oracle development team starts with the Unified App, which has common functionality and look and feel for all applications, and then extends that to add business rules processing, flows, App UI, whatever they need for their specific Oracle application. We're seeing our partners and customers wanting to build their own applications. Maybe a customer or partner wants to create a Time & Expense application and leverage the Fusion application data and the APIs available, but define their own flows, their own pages, their own processing. This is very easy to do. They'd start by extending the Unified App just like the Oracle development teams do, and then build their own App UI and within that, their own flows, pages, and custom processing. The nice thing about it is that the application looks and works and feels just like a Fusion application and it appears alongside other Fusion applications, because it is a Fusion application. 13:52 Did you know that the Oracle University Learning Community regularly holds live events hosted by Oracle expert instructors. Find out how to prepare for your certification exams. Learn about the latest technology advances and features. Ask questions in real time and learn from an Oracle subject matter expert. From Ask Me Anything about certification to Ask the Instructor coaching sessions, you'll be able to achieve your learning goals for 2024 in no time. Join a live event today and witness firsthand the transformative power of the Oracle University Learning Community. Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started.  14:33 Nikita: Welcome back! So Joe, it sounds like there are two different paths or life cycles to create extensions for future applications in Visual Builder Studio. Is that correct? Joe: Yes, exactly. So one path to extending the functionality of Fusion apps is to edit the page in Visual Builder Studio, which opens the page in Visual Builder Designer, and you then make changes to the existing pages, depending on what the development team has made extendable.  14:58 Nikita: But you can't create new pages and flows in this scenario, right? Joe: This is strictly about modifying an existing page. The other path is creating a new application extension, which is a new application from scratch or extending an existing Oracle application or even an existing partner or customer application. Again, we're not seeing this typically being done too much. Most partners and customers create new applications or make customizations to existing pages. But the architecture does support it. So, your partner might create a new application based on the production app released by Oracle, and you could extend their application. Or a development team at your site could extend Oracle's application and you could then extend that team's application. This is mechanically possible, although I question the use case behind that. Usually, we see our apps being extended – becoming a dependency when there's code that can be leveraged or reused for a new app and its new App UI. 15:49 Lois: Joe, what did you mean when you say one extension is a dependency of another? Can you talk a bit about dependencies, what that means, how it looks to the developer? Joe: When you extend an application, it becomes a dependency to your application, and you get access to all the resources within that dependency that are marked as extendable by the developer who created that extension. Most useful are things like service connections to REST APIs from Fusion apps data sources, reusable code fragments, and layouts that you can leverage in those cases where you want to create a new App UI. When an extension is listed as a dependency, you'll see this graphically in Visual Builder Studio Designer. When you see an extension listed as a dependency, it means you can reference any of that extension's resources that have been marked extendable by the developer. Recall all resources are closed off or hidden by default, but development teams can mark resources as open to being extended and reused, and then you can see and use those resources. So, you can easily add and remove extensions as dependencies in Visual Builder Designer as needed. Now, this can be a nice way to modularize and reuse your resources and assets. To summarize: I can modify an existing page – this is most common, extend an existing application and create a new App UI – which is not common, or I can extend the unified app to create a new app and a new App UI and add other extensions as dependencies, as needed, to leverage their services, fragments, and layouts when building my own pages – this is pretty common as well. 17:14 Nikita: There's one thing I'd like to come back to, Joe. You mentioned something called a mashup application earlier. Can you tell us a little more about that? Joe: To recap: I mentioned a couple of different ways that you can extend Fusion applications. One is changing layouts or creating rule-based layouts. You can also extend existing apps and create your own App UI on top of them or create your own Fusion app from scratch. But these are Fusion apps and they have restrictions.  These can only run within the Fusion applications ecosystem, which means they can only be accessed by people who are registered in the Fusion application ecosystem, and there are some other restrictions (for example, in terms of the APIs you can access). And you also have no access to customer data tables.   Mashup applications use the stand-alone Visual Builder Cloud Service, which enables you to create custom visual applications. These are visual applications that run outside the Fusion apps ecosystem. Users only need to be identified to the Identity Cloud Service, IDCS, and then they can get access to these mashup apps, depending on the roles and privileges given to them, of course. These mashup applications can access Fusion apps API data, as well as customer database tables, Excel spreadsheet data, CSV files, and third-party APIs. And all this data can appear on the same page, in the same app, using the same Redwood components, so they look and work just like Fusion applications. 18:32 Lois: I know in the past there's been some friction to making changes in Fusion applications. Partner and customer developers use different tools than the ones Oracle engineers use and there have been some deployment issues. To wrap up things, can you tell us why customers should use Visual Builder Studio to customize Fusion apps? Joe: Glad to, Lois. The big benefit to customers is that they are using the exact same tools, Visual Builder Designer for page design work and Visual Builder Studio for project and code management, to build the customizations and extensions that Oracle is using to create the applications and extensions that are delivered to them. I can't emphasize enough how big a deal this is and how wonderful it is for the customer. We're constantly making the Visual Builder Designer interface easier and easier to work with. We're currently releasing a new version of Visual Builder Designer—the Express mode version. This version of Designer is lightweight and has only the necessary features required to allow you to make changes to pages and layouts, and create and manage dynamic rule-based layouts. If you need more (for example, you need to create service connections, fragments, and do a lot more of that type of advanced work), then use the advanced version of the Designer. Both are available to you, assuming that your user has the appropriate permission and the Fusion app you are using has implemented Express Designer. 19:46 Lois: OK Joe, what courses does Oracle University offer for me if I wanted to learn more about developing extensions for Fusion apps and creating mashup apps using Visual Builder Studio? Joe: Oracle University has several courses. We have the Develop Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio, which focuses on creating the stand-alone custom bespoke mashup visual applications. We also have our Design and Develop Redwood Applications course, which goes into detail about working with the Redwood page templates and components. All these courses are free and available today. And all you need to do is log in to mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 20:19 Nikita: Thank you so much, Joe, for joining us today. This has been so educational. Joe: It's been lovely talking to you both. Thank you. Lois: Yeah, my brain is full. Thanks Joe. Until next week, this is Lois Houston… Nikita: And Nikita Abraham, signing off! 20:32 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

The next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications is being built using Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit. However, many of the terms associated with these tools can be confusing. In this episode, Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham are joined by Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald. Together, they take you through the different terminologies, how they relate to each other, and how they can be used to deliver the new Oracle Fusion Applications as well as stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/develop-fusion-applications-using-visual-builder-studio/122614/ Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/build-visual-applications-using-oracle-visual-builder-studio/110035/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. --------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this  series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular  Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast. I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Today, we're starting a new season on building the next generation of Oracle Cloud Apps with Visual Builder Studio. 00:45 Lois: And I'm so excited that we have someone really special to take us through the next few episodes. Joe Greenwald is joining us. Joe is a Senior Principal OCI Instructor with Oracle University. He joined Oracle in 1992 with an extensive background in CASE tools. Since then, he has used and taught all of Oracle's software development tools, including Oracle Forms, APEX, JDeveloper ADF, as well as all the Fusion Middleware courses. Currently, Joe is responsible for the Visual Builder Studio and Redwood development courses, including extending Fusion Applications with Visual Builder. 01:22 Nikita: In today's episode, we're going to ask Joe about Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit, also known as JET. Together, they form the basis of the technology for the next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications, as well as many other Oracle applications, including most Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) interfaces.  Lois: We'll look at the different terminologies and technologies, how they relate to each other, and how they deliver the new Oracle Fusion applications and stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. Hi Joe! Thanks for being with us today. 01:57 Joe: Hi Lois! Hi Niki! I'm glad to be here. Nikita: Joe, I'm somewhat thrown by the terminology around Visual Builder, Visual Studio, and JET. Can you help streamline that for us?  Lois: Yeah, things that are named the same sometimes refer to different things, and sometimes things with a different name refer to the same thing.  02:15 Joe: Yeah, I know where you're coming from. So, let's start with Visual Builder Studio. It's abbreviated as VBS and can go by a number of different names. Some of the most well-known ones are Visual Builder Studio, VBS, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Stand-Alone, and Visual Builder Cloud Service. Clearly, this can be very confusing. For the purposes of these episodes as well as the training courses I create, I use certain definitions.  02:39 Lois: Can you take us through those? Joe: Absolutely, Lois. Visual Builder Studio refers to a product that comes free with an OCI account and allows you to manage your project-related assets. This includes the project itself, which is a container for all of its assets. You can assign teams to your projects, as well as secure the project and declare roles for the different team members. You manage GIT repositories with full graphical and command-line GIT support, define package, build, and deploy jobs, and create and run continuous integration/continuous deployment graphical and code-managed pipelines for your applications. These can be visual applications, created using the Visual Builder Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, or non-visual apps, such as Java microservices, docker builds, NPM apps, and things like that. And you can define environments, which determine where your build jobs can be deployed. You can also define issues, which allow you to identify, track, and manage things like bugs, defects, and enhancements. And these can be tracked in code review merge requests and build jobs, and be mapped to agile sprints and scrum boards. There's also support for wikis for team collaboration, code snippets, and the management of the repository and the project itself. So, VBS supports code reviews before code is merged into GIT branches for package, build, and deploy jobs using merge requests.  03:57 Nikita: OK, what exactly do you mean by that? Joe: Great. So, for example, you could have developers working in one GIT branch and when they're done, they would push their private code changes into that remote branch. Then, they'd submit a merge request and their changes would be reviewed.  Once the changes are approved, their code branch is merged into the main branch and then automatically runs a CI/CD package (continuous integration/continuous deployment) package, build, and deploy job on the code. Also, the CI/CD package, build, and deploy jobs can run against any branches, not just the main branch. So Visual Builder Studio is intended for managing the project and all of its assets. 04:37 Lois: So Joe, what are the different tools used in developing web applications? Joe: Well, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Studio Designer, Visual Builder Designer, Visual Builder Design-Time, Visual Builder Cloud Service, Visual Builder Stand-Alone all kind of get lumped together. You can kinda see why. What I'm referring to here are the tools that we use to build a visual web application composed of HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) for metadata. I call this Visual Builder Designer. This is an Integrated Development Environment, it's the “IDE” which runs in your browser. You use a combination of drag and drop, setting properties, and writing and modifying custom and generated code to develop your web applications. You work within a workspace, which is your own private copy of a remote Git branch. When you're ready to start development work, you open an existing workspace or create a new one based on a clone of the remote branch you want to work on. Typically, a new branch would be created for the development work or you would join an existing branch. 05:35 Nikita: What's a workspace, Joe? Is it like my personal laptop and drive?  Joe: A workspace is your own private code area that stores any changes you make on the Oracle servers, so your code changes are never lost—even when working in a browser-based, network-based tool. A good analogy is, say I was working at home on my own machine. And I would make a copy of a remote GIT branch and then copy that code down to my local machine, make my code changes, do my testing, etc. and then commit my work—create a logical save point periodically—and then when I'm ready, I'd push that code up into the remote branch so it can be reviewed and merged with the main branch. My local machine is my workspace. However, since this code is hosted up by Oracle on our servers, and the code and the IDE are all running in your browser, the workspace is a simulation of a local work area on your own computer. So, the workspace is a hosted allocation of resources for you that's private. Other people can't see what's going on in your workspace. Your workspace has a clone of the remote branch that you're working with and the changes you make are isolated to your cloned code in your workspace. 06:38 Lois: Ok… the code is actually hosted on the server, so each time you make a change in the browser, the change is written back to the server? Is it possible that you might lose your edits if there's a networking interruption? Joe: I want to emphasize that while I started out not personally being a fan of web-based integrated development environments, I have been using these tools for over three years and in all that time, while I have lost a connection at times—networks are still subject to interruptions—I've never lost any changes that I've made. Ever. 07:08 Nikita: Is there a way to save where you are in your work so that you could go back to it later if you need to? Joe: Yes, Niki, you're asking about commits and savepoints, like in a Git repository or a Git branch. When you reach a logical stopping or development point in your work, you would create a commit or a savepoint. And when you're ready, you would push that committed code in your workspace up to the remote branch where it can be reviewed and then eventually merged, usually with the main Git branch, and then continuous integration/continuous package and deployment build jobs are run. Now, I'm only giving you a high-level overview, but we cover all this and much more in detail with hands-on practices in our Visual Builder developer courses. Right now, I'm just trying to give you a sense of how these different tools are used. 07:49 Lois: Yes, that makes sense, Joe. It's a lot to cover in a short amount of time. Now, we've discussed the Visual Builder Designer IDE and workspace. But can you tell us more about Visual Builder Cloud Service and stand-alone environments? What are they used for? What features do they provide? Are they the same or different things? Joe: Visual Builder Cloud Service or Visual Builder Stand-Alone, as it's sometimes called, is a service that Oracle hosts on its servers. It provides hosting for the deployed web application source code as well as database tables for business objects that we build and maintain to store your customer data. This data can come from XLS or CSV files, or even your own Oracle database customer table data.  A custom REST proxy makes calls to external third-party REST services on your behalf and supports several popular authentication mechanisms. There is also integration with the Identity Cloud Service (IDCS) to manage users and their access to your web apps. 08:47 Joe: Visual Builder Cloud Service is a for-fee product. You pay licensing fees for how much you use because it's a hosted service. Visual Builder Studio, the project asset management aspect I discussed earlier, is free with a standard OCI license. Now, keep in mind these are separate from something like Visual Builder Design Time and the service that's running in Fusion application environments. What I'm talking about now is creating standalone, bespoke, custom visual applications. These are applications that are built using industry-standard HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON for metadata and are hosted on the Oracle servers. 09:27 Are you looking for practical use cases to help you plan and apply configurations that solve real-world challenges?  With the new Applied Learning courses for Cloud Applications, you'll be able to practically apply the concepts learned in our implementation courses and work through case studies featuring key decisions and configurations encountered during a typical Oracle Cloud Applications implementation. Applied learning scenarios are currently available for General Ledger, Payables, Receivables, Accounting Hub, Global Human Resources, Talent Management, Inventory, and Procurement, with many more to come!  Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 10:09 Nikita: Welcome back! Joe, you said Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone is a for-fee service. Is there a way I can learn about using Visual Builder Designer to build bespoke visual applications without a fee? Joe: Yes. Actually, we've added an option where you can run the Visual Builder Designer and learn how to create web apps without using the app hosting or the business object database that stores your customer data or the REST proxy for authentication or the Identity Cloud Service. So you don't get those features, but you can still learn the fundamentals of developing with Visual Builder Designer. You can call third-party APIs, you can download the source, and run it locally, for example, in a Tomcat server. This is a great and free way to learn how to develop with the Visual Builder Designer. 10:52 Lois: Joe, I want to know more about the kinds of apps you can build in VB Designer and the capabilities that VB Cloud Service provides. Joe: Visual Builder Designer allows you to build custom, bespoke web applications made of interactive webpages; flows of pages for navigation; events that respond when things happen in the app, for example, GUI events like a button is clicked or values are entered into a text field; variables to store state and the ability to make REST calls, all from your browser. These applications have full access to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs, given that you have the right security permissions and credentials of course. They can access your customer business data as business objects in our internally hosted database tables or your own customer database tables. They can access third-party APIs, and all these different data sources can appear in the same visual application, on the same page, at the same time. They use the identity cloud service to identify which users can log in and authenticate against the application. And they all use the new Redwood graphical user interface components and page templates, so they have the same look and feel of all Oracle applications. 11:59 Nikita: But what if you're building or extending Oracle Fusion Applications? Don't things change a little bit? Joe: Good point, Niki. Yes. While you still work within Visual Builder Studio, that doesn't change, VBS maintains your project and all your project-related assets, that is still the same. However, in this case, there is no separate hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone instance. In this case, Visual Builder is hosted inside of Fusion apps itself as part of the installation. I won't go into the details of how the architecture works, but the Visual Builder instance that you're running your code against is part of Fusion applications and is included in the architecture as well as the billing. All your code changes are maintained and stored within a single container called an extension. And this extension is a Git repository that is created for you, or you can create it yourself, depending on how you choose to work within Visual Builder Studio. You create an extension to hold the source code changes that provide a customization or configuration. This means making a change to an existing page or a set of pages or even adding new pages and flows to your Oracle Fusion Applications. You use Visual Builder Studio and Visual Builder Designer in a similar way as to how you would use them for bespoke stand-alone visual applications.  13:10 Lois: I'm trying to envision how this workflow is used. How is it different from bespoke VB app development? Or is it different at all? Joe: So, recall that the Visual Builder Designer is effectively the Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, where you make your code changes by working with both the raw HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code, if need be, or the Page Designer for drag and drop, and setting properties and then Live mode to test your work. You use a version of VB Designer to view and modify your customizations, and the code is stored in a Git repository called an extension. So, in that sense, the work of developing pages and flows and such is the same.  You still start by creating or, more typically, joining a project and then either create a new extension from scratch or base it on an existing application, or go directly to the page that you want to edit and, on that page, select from your profile menu to edit in Visual Builder Studio. Now, this is a different lifecycle path from bespoke visual applications. With them, you're not extending an app or modifying individual pages in the same way. 14:11 Joe: You get a choice of which project you want to add your extension to when you're working with Fusion apps and potentially which repository to store your customizations, unless one already exists and then it's assigned automatically to hold your code changes. So you make your changes and edits to the portions of the application that have been opened for extensibility by the development team. This is another difference. Once you make your code changes, the workflow is pretty much the same as for a bespoke visual application: do your development work, commit your changes, push your changes to the remote branch. And then typically, your code is reviewed and if the code passes and is approved, it's merged with the main branch. Then, the package and deploy jobs run to deploy the main code to the production environment or whatever environment you're targeting. And once the package and deploy jobs complete, the code base is updated and users who log in see the changes that you've made. 15:00 Nikita: You mentioned creating apps that combine data from Fusion cloud, applications, customer data, and third-party APIs into one page. Why is it necessary? Why can't you just do all that in one Fusion Applications extension? Joe: When you create extensions, you are working within the Oracle Fusion Applications ecosystem, that's what they actually call it, which includes a defined a set of users who have been predefined and are, therefore, known to Fusion Applications. So, if you're a user and you're not part of that Fusion Apps ecosystem, you can't access the pages. Period. That's how Fusion Apps works to maintain its security and integrity. Secondly, you're working pretty much solely with the Fusion Applications APIs data sources coming directly from Fusion Applications, which are also available to you when you're creating bespoke visual apps. When you're working with Fusion Applications in Visual Builder, you don't have access to these business objects that give you access to your own customer database data through Visual Builder-generated REST APIs. Business objects are available only to bespoke visual applications in the hosted VB Cloud Service instance.  So, your data sources are restricted to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs and some third-party APIs that work within a narrow set of authentication mechanisms currently, although there are plans to expand this in the future. A mashup app that allows you now to access all these data sources while creating apps that leverage the Redwood Component System, so they look and work like Fusion Apps. They're a highly popular option for our partners and customers. 16:25 Lois: So, to review, we have two different approaches. You can create a visual application using the for-fee, hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service/Stand-Alone or the one that comes with Oracle Integration Cloud, or you can use the extension architecture for Fusion applications, where you use the designer and create your extensions, and the code is delivered and deployed to Fusion applications code.  You haven't talked about JET yet though, Joe. What is that? Joe: So, JET is an abbreviation. It stands for Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit and JET is the underlying technology that makes Visual Builder, visual applications, and Visual Builder Extensions for Fusion Applications possible. Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit provides a module-based, open-source toolkit that leverages modern JavaScript, TypeScript, CSS3, and HTML5 to deliver web applications. It's targeted at JavaScript developers working on client-side applications. It is not for backend development.  It's a collection of popular, powerful JavaScript libraries and a set of Oracle-contributed JavaScript libraries that make it very simple, easy, and efficient to build front-end applications that can consume and interact with Oracle products and services, especially Oracle Cloud services, but of course it can work with any type of third-party API. 17:42 Nikita: How are JET applications architected, Joe, and how does that relate to Visual Builder pages and flows? Joe: The architecture of JET applications is what's called a single page architecture. We've all seen these. These are where you have a single web page—think of your index page that provides the header and footer for your web page—and then the middle portion or the middle content of the page, represented by modules, allow you to navigate from one page or module to another. It also provides the data mapping so that the data elements in the variables and the state of the application, as well as the graphical user interface elements that provide the fields and functionality for the interface for the application, these are all maintained on the client side. If you're working in pure JET, then you work with these modules at the raw JavaScript code level. And there are a lot of JavaScript developers who want to work like this and create their custom applications from the code up, so to speak. However, it also provides the basis for Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion Apps visual extensions in Visual Builder. 18:38 Lois: How does JET support VB Apps? You didn't talk much about having to write a bunch of JavaScript and HTML5 so I got the impression that this is all done for you by VB Designer? Joe: Visual Builder applications are composed of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code that is usually generated by the developer when she drags and drops components on to the page designer canvas or sets properties or creates action chains to respond to events. But there's also a lot of JavaScript object notation (JSON) metadata created at the time that describes the pages, the flows, the navigation, the REST services, the variables, their data types, and other assets needed for the app to function. This JSON metadata is translated at runtime using a large JavaScript extension toolkit library called the Visual Builder Runtime that runs in the browser and real time translates the metadata and other assets in the Visual Builder source code into JET code and assets, which are actually executed at runtime. And it's very quick, very fast, very efficient, and provides a layer of abstraction between the raw JET code and the Visual Builder architecture of pages, flows, action chains for executing code and events to handle things that occur in the user interface, including saving the state in variables that are mapped to GUI components. For example, if you have an Input text component, you need to have a variable to store the value that was entered into that Input text component between page refreshes. The data can move from the Input text component to the variable, and from the variable to that Input text component if it's changed programmatically, for example. So, JET manages binding these data values to variables and the UI components on the page. So, a change to a variable value or a change to the contents of the component causes the others to change automatically. Now, this is only a small part of what JET and the frameworks and libraries it uses do for the applications.  JET also provides more complex GUI components like lists and tables, and selection lists, and check boxes, and all the sorts of things you would expect in a modern GUI application. 20:34 Nikita: You mentioned a layer of abstraction between Visual Builder Studio Designer and JET. What's the benefit of working in Visual Builder Designer versus JET itself? Joe: The benefit of Visual Builder is that you work at a higher level of abstraction than having to get down into the more detailed levels of deep JavaScript code, working with modules, data mappings, HTML code, single page architecture navigation, and the related functionalities. You can work at a higher level, a graphical level, where you can drag and drop things onto a design canvas and set properties. The VB architecture insulates you from the more technical bits of JET. Now, this frees the developer to concentrate more on application and page design, implementing logic and business rules, and creating a pleasing workflow and look and feel for the user. This keeps them from having to get caught up in the details of getting this working at the code level.  Now if needed, you can write custom JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3 code, though much less than in a JET app, and all that is part of the VB application source, which becomes part of the code used by JET to execute the application itself. And yet it all works seamlessly together. 21:35 Lois: Joe, I know we have courses in JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. But does a developer getting ready to work in Visual Builder Designer have to go take those courses first or can they start working in VB Designer right away? Joe: Yeah, that question does often comes up: Do I need to learn JET to work with Visual Builder? No, you don't. That's all taken care for you in the products themselves. I don't really think it helps that much to learn JET if you are going to be a VB developer. In some ways, it could even be a bit distracting since some of things you learn to do in JET, you would have to unlearn or not do so much because of what VB does it for you. The things you would have to do manually in code in JET are done for you. This is why we call VB a low code development tool.  I mean, you certainly can if you want to, but I would spend more time learning about the different GUI components, page templates, the Visual Builder architecture — events, action chains, and the data provider variables and types. Now, I know JET myself. I started with that before learning Visual Builder, but I use very little of my JET knowledge as a VB developer. Visual Builder Designer provides a nice, abstracted, clean layer of modern visual development on top of JET, while leveraging the power and flexibility of JET and keeping the lower-level details out of my way. 22:46 Nikita: Joe, where can I go to get started with Visual Builder? Joe: Well, for more information, I recommend you take a look at our Develop Fusion Applications course if you're working with Fusion Applications and Visual Builder Studio. The other course is Develop Visual Applications with Visual Builder Studio and that's if you're creating stand-alone bespoke applications. Both these courses are free. We also have a comprehensive course that covers JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3, and while it's not required that you take that to be successful, it can be helpful down the road. I would say that some basic knowledge of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript will certainly support you and serve you well when working with Visual Builder. You learn more as you go along and you find that you need to create more sophisticated applications. I would also mention that a lot of the look and feel of the applications in Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion apps extensions and customizations come through JET components, JET styles, and JET variables, and CSS variables, so that's something that you would want to pursue at some point. There's a JET cookbook out there. You can search for Oracle JET and look for the JET cookbook and that's a good introduction to all of that. 23:47 Lois: Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really looking forward to having you back next week to discuss extending Oracle Fusion Applications with Visual Builder Studio. Joe: Thanks for having me. Nikita: And if you want to learn about some of the courses Joe mentioned, visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. Until next time, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston signing off! 24:09 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

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Recorded January 24th, 2021: We've got a new president. How do you feel? Worried? Angry? Hopeful? We discuss President Biden's first days in office, Trump's exit; the pardons & the 1776 Commission, and what is next for America. You can catch S2T LIVE every Sunday at 2 pm EST on fb LIVE and Twitch!! Follow Us!!! www.instagram.com/straightiitape/ twitter.com/S2Tontheair www.facebook.com/StraightIITape/ Music credits: The official Straight II Tape theme “The Turn” produced by Ryen David www.ryendavid.bandcamp.com/ What It Means To Me produced by Ryen David

Joe Atang doesn't give himself enough credit for the movement he's developed by simply listening. After having been called in his morning TikTok live show and shared my Word of the Day with him and his followers, I felt more inspired to continue doing the podcast and simply listening without interruption and allowing their voices be heard. If you're not on TikTok already you should definitely give it a shot and subscribe to @joeatang and tune in every morning or follow his YouTube channel to get to know him and his vision to inspire others and have a lovely day. It's what the world needs now more than ever. Hi! Help Inspire to Bi! Be Inspired

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Many things have changed since our first show Five years ago. This week is proof of that as Joe has a new profession He has embarked on; Patrick has a new ongoing feature for the BBQ and J.J. has some amazing news about a new Braille Display coming to A.T. Guys. Travel, animals and an acknowledgement of what came before rounds out this 200th, of the numbered shows, installment of the Blind Bargains Qast. In The News: Fusion 2020 Is Live And Will Soon Have A December 2019 Update Apple Releases iOS 13.2.3 and iPadOS 13.2.3 with Mail, Messages, and Search Fixes and Background App Performance Improvements It s here! Get iOS Access for All (iOS 13 Edition) in ePub format. It s fully updated for iOS 13, with coverage of dark mode, voice control, enhancements to VoiceOver, and lost more. Get it now and tell your friends! Orbit research introduces a chat app for the deaf-blind Aira, Microsoft, and Moovit make public transport more accessible for the visually impaired The Continued Significance of the National Library Service for the Blind: Expanding Braille and Implementing the Marrakesh Treaty Audio Wizards Update Brings 5 New Levels To Android And iOS For Free Access World For November Brings The Annual Holiday Gift Guide And More Interview: Ed Rodgers and Liam Smith of Bristol Braille A milestone like our 200th BBQ needed something just as huge at the center of the proceedings. Ed Rodgers and Liam Smith, of Bristol Braille, thought the same. The pair sat down with J.J. to discuss how the Canute is moving from the pre-order phase to an imminent full-fledged product launch. Hear some stories about the construction, the support and the open source nature of the project. And, if that wasn't enough, visit our A.T. Guys product page for the Canute 360 Braille Multiline E-reader to order yours as they become available Stateside. Be sure to visit the Bristol Braille site for more information about the launch windows outside the U.S.. Tip: Make Math Easier With Calcute J.J. knows that Joe's Kryptonite is math. But things may change as Calcute allows you to easily perform math in an "adding tape" notepad style. This program lets you review your work, rearrange your functions and edit problems on the fly. It might not help Joe; however, it might just be the right thing for helping you out with your calculations. Sound Off: This email, entitled "Two hundredth episode of the BBQ podcast.", was sent in the night before we recorded this show. "Hi Joe, and JJ, My name is Jeremy Levy and I have been a fan of your podcast since 100. I was also a fan of the Sero Talk podcast. I really enjoy the coverage you do for the different blind conferences. I also really enjoy the different episodes that you talk about. I would love to start my own podcast with in this next year. Thank you very much for showing me that blind people can do podcasts. Congratulations on your 200th episode. Sincerely, Your loyal fan, and loyal listener, Jeremy Levy" Thanks for writing in Jeremy. Here is a bit of behind the scenes trivia. We recorded this episode on the five year anniversary of the news That broke about our previous podcasts. We are extremely proud of all our previous work and we appreciate those who have stayed with us all these years. Joe, J.J. and Patrick have been working together a long time over hundreds of hours of audio. And we could not have done it without our friends, sponsors and most of all our fantastic fans along the way. Last Word: It seemes only fitting that cats and travel found their way into this week's oddness from the web. Trapped Under The Megabus A black cat got loose on the field for Giants-Cowboys, and Twitter lost its mind Episode 201 will feature our big Black Friday extravaganza! Tune in to hear more about deals and products that may just make your gift giving a little bit easier this holiday season.

This show comes to you a little later than usual because, to J.J.'s chagrin, we wanted to cover the Microsoft Surface event. Was it worth the wait or was joe wrong in thinking there was news to talk about? Well, Joe was wrong about something as you will see in "Sound Off". but the BBQ Crew was right about the future of pet transport as can be seen in the "Last Word". Catch a train while you wonder if we can get an episode recorded before J.J.'s groceries can arrive in episode 194. In The News: Mattel's Uno Braille Hits Target Shelves, But Does It Miss The Point? Here are the results of the latest Web Aim Survey NVDA 2019.2.1 Released What's New In The JAWS September Update APH Taps Humanware For Partnership Of Code Jumper More Features, No Cost: Nearby Explorer Upgrades are Coming Discussion Topic: 2019 Microsoft Surface Event J.J. was skeptical that Joe could find something he would care about during these announcements. And then the talk of the Microsoft Duo came up. Here's a bunch of links that fueled the fires of conversation. Windows 10 1909 Coming Soon, Here Are the New Features Microsoft's 2019 Surface Event In 10 Minutes Everything Microsoft announced yesterday and when you can get it Microsoft Announces New Surface Pro X, Laptop 3, and Surface Pro 7 The Surface Laptop 3 and Surface Pro 7 Revamps Are One Port Short of Ideal Microsoft Will Still Make It Hard for You to Repair Its New Repairable Surface Laptop Surface Laptop 3, Surface Pro X SSDs aren't 'user removable' How does the new Surface Pro 7 compare to the Surface Go? We compare the Surface Pro 7 with the Surface Pro X Here's why Microsoft wanted a custom chip for the Surface Pro X's brains Check out our hands-on look at Microsoft's Surface Pro X Hands On: Surface Pro X Surface Earbuds: Microsoft's answer to Apple's AirPods Surface Earbuds look weird, but they feel great Hands On: Surface Ear Buds What the heck is Windows 10X? What Windows 10X Is and Why It's the Future of Microsoft Software Windows 10X OS will work with new dual-screen Surface Neo devices MICROSOFT SURFACE NEO FIRST LOOK: THE FUTURE OF WINDOWS 10X IS DUAL-SCREEN Surface Neo and Duo hands-on: Our dual-screen future Microsoft is making a high-end phone running Android Surface Duo unveiled: A folding Surface phone that runs Android No, Microsoft won't make another Windows phone Is Microsoft's Surface Neo too little too late? The Surface Neo, not Duo, is the path back to Windows Phone MICROSOFT S DUAL-SCREEN PHONE WILL LIVE OR DIE BY THE APPS Tip: Close Safari tabs on your iPhone to save memory and battery Yep, iOS 13 is buggier than a Las Vegas hotel room mattress. Yet the consistently being patched mobile operating system does have some new features worth noting. Anyone who has performed a fun festival of troubleshooting for their family and friends during the holidays might be familiar with Safari keeping tons of tabs open. Old open tabs can drain battery, use data and drag on memory the longer they stay around. Apple knows this and that is why you can set iOS to automatically close them after a period of time. Go to Settings, then down to Safari. From there look for a Close Tabs option. In this control you will find that you can set Safari to close tabs after a day, a week or a month. Don t worry, this is set to the manual option by default. However, for some relatives, you might just want to move it to a month rather than see their browsing history when trying to fix their iOS devices. Sound Off: First, Dave Van Der Molen asks a question in his email "Indoor Navigation and GPS Apps" "Hi Joe and J.J. Absolutely love your BBQ podcasts! They're informative, timely, and I love the banter!! I have two topics on which I'd love to hear a discussion: One is that I wish there was an iOS or Android app out there that had similar capabilities to the Trekker Breeze or the Victor Reader Trek (i.e., you would be able to record a route as a sighted person is guiding you and also vocally record points of interest as you're recording that route). Then you should be able to play the route back and walk it independently with your guide dog or cane. I've found an app called MyWay Classic that's supposed to be able to do those things, but the manual is badly written and the app is poorly organized. Having said all of the above, however, I'm wondering why blind and visually impaired people can't access the same navigation/location apps as land surveyors who get get location accuracy to within inches. My second issue I'd love to hear discussion on is whether it's reasonably easy and affordable for individuals to set up indoor navigation systems in small buildings that they frequent, and I'm thinking that the person setting it up would be the only one using it. For example, I'd love to be able to put up stickers or something, so that I could more easily be able to navigate my church or the office building in which I work. To do the navigating, I'd want to be able to use my phone. Thanks so much for the podcast and all the work you do in testing various apps and devices that may or may not be blind-friendly! Dave Sadly, to the second question, we don't have any recommendations due to the way that indoor beacons work at the time of this recording. Shan Noyes writes in with the subject line: "Adaptive technology history & podcast 173 corrections!!!" "Hi Blind Bargains team! First of all I would like to say that I listen to your podcast all the time. Although I do get behind sometimes or skip some podcasts and listen to them later and have to do a binge listening to catch up. I really enjoy the interviews that the podcast covers there is lot of good information. However, during my latest binge listen to catch up on missed podcast I heard some incorrect information that was given. The podcast in question from podcast 173 Alien probing cane, . It appears in the podcast in the section where JJ is talking about the single braille cell device that is kind of mouse size its called braibook. This section takes place just after the 48 minute point of the podcast. Joe makes the comment The first braille displays were one cell. Of course that was back in the 80s. and I was using an optacon There are two problems with this statement. First of all The Optacon did not display what the camera picked up in braille. Yes the display that the optacon user had their finger on was a tactile representation of what the camera was picking up, but it was not braille. It was raised print. A cool device and was a challenge to learn how to use. Actually I received an Optacon in the mid 70s and took 2 weeks of 40 hours of training per week to learn how to use it. It was useful because this was in the days before scanners and optical recognition systems existed for the general public. And Yes I was enough of a crazy kid to actually read a couple of novels with it. Got pretty fast with it as well. However, the Optacon joined the world of that famous bird the dodo in 1996 because scanners and reading machines came along and the Optacon just wasn t fast enough for reading. The second problem in this statement was concerns the first braille displays were single cells. Actually again the company who brought the Optacon to market also brought us a refreshable braille device in the late 70s called the Versabraille, and it had a 20 cell display. When the Versabraille first came out it was a stand a lone unit that one could print from. The next generation of the unit had the ability to act as a terminal and so could be interfaced with Apple 2 e computers and mainframes. I had one of these as well in the early 80s and did a lot of main frame work with it. Anyways, just wanted to set the record straight because people who are not familiar wit the history of adaptive equipment would be mislead by Joe s statement. For an interesting read do a google on the optacon and versabraille. The write up on the Optacon and its early days and how it was developed is very interesting. Yes, the history of adaptive technology is a very very interesting one. I was not only fortunate enough to be using some of the early days stuff, but also was heavily involved as an adaptive technology adviser for the CNIB from 1986 through 1992. To day there are some pretty good systems like NVDA or Jaws, but in the early 80s we had a lot more variation of choice available to us. My first personal speech program for the IBM xt personal computer was Freedom1. A speech program that was very very customizable. Another cool speech program that the developer of Freedom1 wrote was called ISOS . Sure there were speech programs like Vertplus and SoftVert, but ISOS was the first speech program that I had seen that one could set up monitoring windows and when something changed in that windows have the computer trigger something else to happen. IBM also was in the game starting out with a speech program called PCSAID. Which evolved into Screen Reader. An extremely powerful speech package. I still lament the death of IBM Warp and the IBM Screen Reader program. Again one could have it monitor areas of the screen and based upon what it saw perform different computer tasks. Oh well, I m getting off topic. Just wanted to clarify the 2 items in the podcast 173. Guess my only point really is before making such historical statements research them. Because as podcasters Your word gets taken a the undisputed truth. For a description of the Optacon check out" this link "another interesting link is" this one Have a good day. Shan Noyes Last Word: We ponder the future of food and transport this week. REVIEW: Mystery Oreo (2019) Solve the Mystery Flavor for a chance to win $50,000 We podcasted the future... here's our 2016 April Fool's show promoting the fictitious UberWoof And now this; Uber for dogs startup aims to make pet travel easier 195 will probably see a return to the Features format. And ep 196 will contain our coverage of the Google event that is set for October 15th.

We were not sure we would have enough news to talk about this week. Then, thankfully, Amazon decided to announce a metric ton of stuff. This fits in perfectly with our topflight interview with the man himself at Top Dot, Dean Martineau. And we end the show with an all comment section filled "Sound Off", a new tip for Chrome along with food and an auditory odd link in the "Last Word". In The News: A New Feature makes the Amazon Echo Show More Useful for Blind Users All of the headlines from Amazon s big hardware-focused event Related to the talk about voice assistants, Celebrities Will Say Almost Anything on Cameo For The Right Price KeySoft Version 3 for the BrailleNote Touch Plus brings more powerful tools to your fingers First Public Beta of JAWS 2020 Posted with Improved OCR, Form Control Handling, More FSCast 174 Eric Damery previews the first JAWS 2020 public beta, Mozilla to release a new Firefox version every four weeks starting next year Apple to Release iOS 13.1 and iPadOS 13.1 on 24 September; Bringing Many Bug Fixes and Some New Seeing AI adds dark mode, Siri Shorcuts and more Interview: Dean Martineau, Trainer and Author, Dean Martineau, , has been providing the Blind and Low Vision Community with helpful information for more than 700 issues of the "Top Tech Tidd Bits" newsletter. He sits down with J.J. to discuss his new book entitled "windows Keyboard Power User Guide". Hear why Dean feels that these materials are important for refreshing, or maintaining, your skill levels. And don't be frightened by the titles mentioned during the look back at Dean's previous guides, historical documents?, he has produced over the decades. You can find more about Dean, and his training options, at the Top Dot Enterprises website. And you can purchase a copy of the book in the various formats mentioned during this interview. Tip: Open Things Faster In Chrome Chrome is a powerful browser. And it even gets better if you utilize other Google tools and services. J.J. tells us that you can open a new Google Doc by simply typing "docs.new" into the address bar. The same goes for Sheets, Slides and other G Suite services. Joe also passed along this tip about how to force Google Chrome into Dark Mode Sound Off: This week we feature three entries from our comment sections from an article about Talkback, a thought from episode 189 and a viewpoint about episode 188. Airshock has this to say about Talkback and the ability to start it easier on Android devices. While this is a step forward, it's also sad that a simple feature like enabling or disabling your screen reader using voice control is just now coming to Android devices when iOS devices have had this feature for many years, and even macOS has had the same feature ever since Siri was introduced to the operating system sin 2016. Greg Epley had this to say about our conversations on episode 189. I was so disgruntled to hear J.J.'s difficulties signing up for CBS All Access. I myself started with them back in May 2016. I was most likely using IE as my browser of choice then, or perhaps Firefox; anyway, one of those. I am not always the most patient person in the world when it comes to poorly designed web forms since I once created websites. As recently as a few days ago, I went in and changed my payment method and password, and the only problem I ran into was forgetting that not all special symbols are available on TvOS remote keyboard. But I got it straightened out. I am hoping CBS gets this audio description thing worked out in time for Star Trek: Piccard in 2020, but I'm not holding my breath. I didn't really care for Discovery, or Enterprise, for that matter, but I also don't like absolutely everything Star Trek. Orko returns to our feedback section with this comment regarding episode 188. Hi Joe! I was very interested to hear that Ricki (I hope I spelled that correctly) got a Color Star color identifier because I had bought one several months ago. I agree that it is a bit over priced at $450, I also agree with Ricki in that I do not regret the purchase. It quickly became my favorite color identifier, so much so that I sold off all of the other color identifiers I had collected over the years. I will be looking forward to hearing what she has to say about it. Last Word: Things that can go in your ears, things that will make you cover up your ears and something you can put behind your ears. Okay, maybe not that last one. Worst... Cover... Ever! New Device Could Let People Unlock Smartphones With Their Ears Candy Corn Pizza: The Halloween Treat You Never Asked For (Bonus: The first 15 seconds of this track was the stuff of nightmares each time you entered the elevator at the summer NFB convention in Las Vegas This week Amazon brought the fire, and a whole lot of other products, to the news section. Next week, in BBQ 194, we'll see if Microsoft can do the same.

Today’s guest needs no introduction. He is one the most iconic living figures in bourbon today. He’s been on episodes 77, 105, and 175. He’s even got his own personalized scooter to get him around the distillery and that is Jimmy Russell. This podcast touches on his early years and how he was selected to become the next master distiller. He talks about the changes he saw at the distillery as it exchanged hands throughout the years. Also, we get to hear the story on the birth of Rare Breed and his opinion on chill filtering vs non-chill filtering debate. Show Partners: Barrell Craft Spirits blends cask strength, high quality spirits to explore the effects of different distillation methods, barrels, and aging environments. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com. Use code "BOB2019" for discounted tickets to Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. (Offer good through 6/30.) Aged & Ore is running a special promotion on their new Travel Decanter. Get yours today at PursuitTravelDecanter.com. Receive $25 off your first order with code "Pursuit" at RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: The history of JW Dant and Log Still Distillery - https://www.distillerytrail.com/blog/j-w-dant-investing-12-million-to-restart-historic-distillery-in-the-bourbon-capital-of-the-world/ Heaven Hill 7 Year Bottled in Bond Launch - https://www.facebook.com/bourbonpursuit/posts/2640636035998401?__tn__=K-R Leave us a review! https://link.chtbl.com/LeaveAReview This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about speaking at a Total Wine event in Atlanta. Does limestone water make a difference in bourbon? How long does it take to cook bourbon? Can you burn the mash? When did you start at the distillery? What roles have you had at the distillery? What Master Distiller trained you? How did he decide he wanted to train you? What were the early years like? Was there anything from prohibition that affected the distillery operations when you started? Will you all need to increase capacity soon? What was it like when you first started traveling to talk about Wild Turkey? What were your biggest challenges on the road? Were you nervous when you first went out on the road? Were you happy traveling and talking to the consumers? What was the name of the distillery before Wild Turkey? What was it like to distill then ship the bourbon away? Tell us about the other former Lawrenceburg distilleries. What was it like when you were out on the road? Do you think it helped grow the brand? Do you prefer to travel or be at the distillery? Tell us about Kentucky Spirit and Rare Breed. How often are you going through and sampling barrels? Do you have a favorite warehouse? Do you have a favorite floor? Why do you only have 7 floors? What innovations have you seen throughout your time in the bourbon industry? Talk about your rye mashbill. What do you think of non-distilling producers? Tell us about the inception of Rare Breed. Do you like the barrel char flavor? What do you think of chill vs. non-chill filtered? What kind of steak do you like? How much time do you spend at the visitor's center? What do you drive most of the time? Are you excited to have Bruce at the distillery? Did you ever want to own the distillery? Why do whiskey consumers get enthralled with age statements? Any life advice for younger generations? 0:00 I've had one bad job since I've been here. My dad worked for Old Joe Distilling company. The last 10 years of his life he worked here. 0:09 You know what the problem was? You were working here too? Yeah, I was his boss. 0:13 Oh really? (laugh) 0:28 Hey, it's Kenny here and this is episode 207 of bourbon pursuit. It's been a pretty busy week and a half of bourbon news. So let's get to it. Another warehouse comes crashing down. However, this time it's not because of unknown reasons, but it was because of disastrous weather in wind. O.Z. Tyler located in Jonesboro, Kentucky, had a corner of warehouse age get ripped off and barrel started coming to the ground back on Monday, June 17. About 4500 barrels and bourbon more in that quadrant that have now been rescued. The warehouse has been successfully deconstructed, and the cleanup process is underway. That particular warehouse holds around 19,400 barrels. O.Z. Tyler has been in daily meetings with the Environmental Protection Agency to make sure that everything stays contained. On the right side there has been minimal damage in very little leakage because bourbon barrels are constructed to withstand plenty of movement. JW Dant, you've heard the name before because it's one of the many brands owned by Heaven Hill and is also one of the prominent bottled in bond Bourbons that you see on the shelf. And it's been talked about previously with Bernie lovers back on episodes 3637 and 89. Well, heaven Hill may own the name JW Dant as the brand but they don't own the person. j w. Wally dance surprised the crowd during the national bourbon Day celebration in Bardstown, Kentucky, announcing a $12 million investment to build logs still distillery on 2200 acres of land that he purchased that was once guessed them and he decelerate until that was actually shut down back in 1961. In 1883, that distillery at this site was called head and beam distillery but was closed during Prohibition. The distillery reopened the repeal of prohibition, eventually selling to United distillers and later Shanley production at the old distillery was relocated to Louisville in the early 1960s. And production at this location had ceased. The JW dant brand name was sold to heaven Hill in the early 1990s. Heaven Hill still produces JW Dant bourbon today, so don't expect this name on a future bottle from logs still distillery. You can read more about the history of JW Dant and logs still distillery at distillery trail.com with the link in our show notes. while speaking of heaven Hill, everyone is up in arms either celebrating or chastising them over the new announcement of the relaunch of their heaven Hill bottom and bond. You may remember this last year when this product was only available Kentucky and it disappeared from shelves when it had announced its retirement. However, it's back. But there are some catches. The age statement has been increased one year from six to seven years old. It's still bottle and bond at 100 proof the packaging is a bit more flashy than its white label screw top predecessor. Now the big news might be that it's not launching in Kentucky, and it's not going to be available in Kentucky on the first release. Instead, it will be immediately available in California, Texas, New York, Georgia, Florida, Illinois, South Carolina and Colorado. And the prices jumped from the once low budget daily bourbon of $12 and 99 cents to nearly three times that with a suggested retail price of 3999. We're gonna be discussing this one in a lot more detail on the next round table. So we can see where this new price point positions them in the market. So stay tuned for that one. Today's guests, he needs no introduction. He's easily one of probably the most iconic living figures in bourbon today. He's been on episode 77 105 and hundred and 75. He's even got his own personalized scooter to get him around the distillery and that's Jimmy Russell. This podcast touches on his early years and how will you selected to become the next master distiller and how he saw the changes of his own distillery changed hands plenty of times throughout the years. It was certainly an honor for myself to sit there and chat with this man one more time to really just hear more about his story. You're listening to this podcast so we know you enjoy it a little bit. So if you can please be our boots on the ground. leave us a review because that helps the show grow and find new people. Now let's hear what Joe Beatrice over a barrel bourbon has to say. We've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 5:03 Hi Joe from Barrell Bourbon. Here we blend cask strength 5:06 high quality spirits to explore the effects of different distillation methods, barrels, and aging environments. 5:08 You can find it on the shelves at your nearest retail store. I'm Fred Minnick, and this is above the char. I was changing my nine month old baby's diaper. When suddenly an enormous back pain struck my lower back a spasm seized my spine. It says if 1000 vodka troops grabbed their pitchforks and started stabbing me. Thank goodness I was able to place Julian gently down and the changing station as I toppled over and intense pain. I simply couldn't move. And all I could think about was the total wine event I had in Atlanta later that day. I considered canceling it decided to push on. I drove to Atlanta from Louisville stopping every hour to stretch my back. At one point I thought I was going to pass out in the middle of $1 general and chat and knew them as I was shop for back support things. If I did pass out there, I don't think I would have woken up with much. It was a very interesting crowd shopping that day. I pressed on, I get to the total wine two hours late, and there was a decent crowd waiting for me. I tried standing and talking but could barely stand. So I sat and talked about taxation and bourbon. I never really know what I'm going to talk about with these things. I like to feel the crowd out. And this was one I felt was really hungry for geeky knowledge and somehow bourbon taxes just kind of rose to the forefront of what to talk about. I went through my spiel sign some books and magazines, but couldn't have a tasting. For some reason. Georgia doesn't allow people to have tastings and liquor stores. When will our country figure out that responsible alcohol actions are the answer, not pesky bands on things like tastings. I feel really bad for those total wine workers because they can't really share the goodness of bourbon. Anyway, the next day I went to Atlanta's other times wine. When I ran into the show's good friend Kerry, aka suburbia who taunted me with a vodka bottle and took a picture of the pleasure he had. You should check it out on his Twitter handle look for suburbia, it really captured my disdain for the bourbon job stealing parasite known as vodka. Seriously, vodka sucks. Okay, I told my therapist I would cut back on my vodka rant. So let me get back to the total wine stuff. I did a similar talk about taxes at Kennesaw store and later hung out with the club Atlanta bourbon barons, where the founder Giuliano opened up his house and insane collection to me, at this point, after hitting up the urgent care center the day before, I was on some medication for the back and couldn't really partake in much of this great whiskey tasting. But I slipped a little, just a little. One of the members is Atlanta's leading personal trainer and geologists who sees Atlanta Braves players and people who have a bunch more muscle than me. He offered to look at my best And that, to me is the epitome of the bourbon community. We like to help one another. Atlanta was gracious with the bourbon hospitality and concerns from a health and it just made my trip all the worthwhile. So thank you so much to the Atlanta bourbon community for opening up your arms and accepting me and my bad back because I hobbled to and from all the total wine stores and to your homes. I shared this with you because I feel like the bourbon community is at a breaking point on the internet. I'm seeing constant trolling and bickering and online forums. And maybe it's time we go back to the old ways of the bourbon social life. You know, when you invited total strangers into your home and poured over your conversations with your very best Bourbons. Those were the good old days, and I'd like to see us get back to them. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, have you subscribed to my new magazine bourbon Plus, you should. Latest cover features the actor Jeffrey Wright, who's starring in James Bond and john wick. He's on the cover. Check it out. Until next week. Cheers 9:08 Welcome back to the episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon back in Lawrenceburg filming recording on site at wild turkey distillery wild turkey Hill I believe one time is what you call it right Jimmy 9:21 is known as wild turkey he'll it's been named Ed bar county is known as wild turkey. He'll 9:26 There you go. So we have master distiller Of course, bourbon legend, Jimmy Russell on the podcast today. And before I kind of dig into it, just want to say thanks to everybody from the empire that helped set this up everybody that also kind of figured out the logistics for it as well. We are recording outside today. So if you hear some trucks going by, it's something that Jimmy had already mentioned earlier to us that there is a rock quarry probably about a mile and a half down the road. And apparently they make some pretty damn good limestone and that's where you hear these trucks that are just going back and forth all day. Right You know, this is where all the lamps only had to have good limestone water to make good bourbon and the Kentucky River is all spring fed limestone water. So I guess we'll go ahead and we'll kick it off with that. So anybody everybody knows Jimmy so we'll get we'll get past that but you know, we'll we'll talk about water in general right because I think it's one of those things that gets a lot of talk about when it comes to Kentucky bourbon you know, you talk about limestone and about limestone filtration but does it really matter at the end of the day because a lot of stuff goes to like reverse osmosis and it's really filtered heavily through there so what's 10:32 kind of your thought process well done in the cooking process we use just limestone water is no go so old time we use house Moser is I use when we're cutting a bourbon after it's been aged for years, but it's just regular Kentucky River water when when you're actually cooking it 10:47 coconut. Okay, so I guess let's let's give some people a little bit of a schooling. So when you're cooking bourbon, what's what's the usual time process when it goes into the masher and everything like Well, 10:59 it depends on time a year we're cooking 400 bushels to a mash corn rye and barley malt. Now the cooking times are the same we cook corn up to 212 degrees and then we cook it for a period of time. Then we start cooling down we had a rather certain temperature has a little more starts a little more flavors, and then we cooling down to certain temperatures. It had we had to barley malt barley malt converts all starches into fermented will sugars. Then we pump at our firm better at our east and East a non ferment will sugars produces a bourbon in 72 hours. And this depend on temperature cook, the cooking temperature is always the same. But cooling down from 200 and 20th. We're cooling water outlet Kentucky River used to cause and all in the wintertime, we can cook and pump a fermented mash mash out in a firmer and three and a half, four hours. And when we just shut down and last part of June the water was hot. It was taking four and a half five hours. So what you're doing, you're setting there and beating that grain to death cooking in the I use simple terms. Just like cooking at home, we leave something on the stove too long. It gets mushy and not as good. So 12:11 yeah, but do you get any like, like say you're putting in like a baking pan? Does ever actually get like black underneath of it? Like if you actually cooked it too long? No, no, no. So you're not gonna actually get can actually burn it. 12:23 No, you're not going to burn it. 12:25 So is there? Is there a point when you know that the mash is done? 12:28 In your opinion? Oh, yes, you can tell by looking at the firm better. First day is pretty smooth and even on top. And they used to own sugars and the apartment or is rolling and moving and it's the natural movement was the East really known the sugars scene. And as it starts finishing Oh, we call it down down they'll start dying down and it'll be come out clear on top. 12:52 Oh yes. The father the firm enters right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 12:55 We call it beer at that stage. 12:57 So distillers beer. Absolutely. I so what's let's let's give everybody a little bit of a history lesson too because you started here at wild turkey back in September 10 1954 Okay, so you know the exact date remember the time 13:12 6am seven o'clock in the morning 13:16 maybe I'm not the first person to ask that one. I don't know. Yeah, so you you've pretty much taken you've done a pretty much every single role with inside as 13:25 well yes. 13:27 Most of times you started in the bourbon business you started one place you stayed there all master still it took me under his wing. And that started out in the lab and salary time I learned that you know we learned a job well you can sit back and take it easy, then a boom into something else moves. So that experience in running the ball and operation running the whole client and exercise client management for several years. So what what made it into balls By the way, who was your master distiller that Mr. Bill Hughes he was young distiller for probation and Helio God appeared top heel. And he's took me under his wing started training and were born raised here in Lawrenceburg, Anderson County, and he'd known me you know, all my life and he more or less took me under his wing started training me. 14:14 What What was it about you that? Did he see something? Was there a glimmer in your I did you? Did you ask like, what was it? 14:21 No, I didn't really know. He just they just started trading me doing everything here. 14:25 He's like, here's the here's the biggest sucker in the room. And probably 14:29 nobody else would ever 14:31 know how to use it. 14:33 So what were those were those beginning years, like when you're when you're trying to have this apprenticeship. 14:40 While he's learning everything in the story. I worked in quality control and the story that day and time we didn't have all is saying they will quit what you have now. we'd run analysis on the corn, check it make sure it meets our standards, everything we done by hand. Now you have good equipment to check off, they're going to say you check all the grain and maybe four days are with you my brother scoop shovel shovel, and done a little bit everything. 15:09 So So you started 1954. Right. Yes. So at what point was that during pre post, sorry, post prohibition and and was there anything that really that was, I guess, prohibition ask that that affected your your job at the time? Or is everything just running full cylinders? We started of prohibition in 1933. And this story, some of the buildings and our storage bill some our storage building here 15:39 was built for and 1890s. And most of the steel was, was dismantled cause it was 1919 1933. A lot of them didn't think they'd be back in operation. But the family that owned this at that time is a big rock where why the amount of limestone out here blows. And they own that rock quarry too. So they work here in wintertime. Work in Iraq, we're in the summertime. 16:04 So yeah, you weren't running full cylinders, like you are today. 16:09 Still the same way as to the hot mush July which medicine we don't make any bourbon you just too hot. Doing it now bottling in Hawaii, how's everything Danish goes on all the time? Before it's a cooking mash? It just takes too long to cook them and cooling down. 16:26 Now, do you think that has any effect on the supply of what you all can try to produce? Or? I mean, do you look at it as maybe we should throw in some air conditioning units or open some windows? And 16:36 well, that's not the problem is the water? Oh, is it we say we start having chill water to cooling down. And it just takes along with our we've doubled the capacity owners are to steer in the last few years. So we're running about 346 faster right now. So when we build servers angry, the refurbished everything, we doubled our more than doubled our capacity. And the way we got it now we can put in extra parameters, we can still put in more firm owners and increase more and more. 17:08 I mean, do you do you see the day coming? Where you're going to where you're going to need to do that? Or is right now everything pretty good. And status? Well, 17:14 you know, I hope we have to go save when I started 50 or 60 barrels a day. Now, of course we're restricting our own product, everything to wild turkey products here we make our own product, a drone product and bottle our own product. 17:30 Well, almost right you've got a few other things out there old recipe bond and 17:35 that was too old to steal was that was a one time deal. They went back and done some compile on that. But that's some older stories was here. And they've been looking at some of the older stories for for probation. Maybe doing a special every once while now. 17:49 Yes. What to say I was like there's another one that could be coming out. I think it was the wash. Was it the barons? The barons releases or something like that. They look like it was kind of another another camp party thing. But we figured you probably didn't have a whole lot of your hands involved in that one. No, I didn't. So another thing I guess let's give an idea of, of what so at some point, you are also Do you remember when you had to start going on the road to start talking about the bourbon? Yes, 18:20 it was probably at least 30 years ago or more. And production to master distillers working in production. They just do is to play. That's all you done. And our company started me out going on the road and made a trip all across the United States. And it is completely different is now everybody is all whiskey don't make it. What it is nowadays, everybody. With all internets and everything. Everybody knows everything is going just like this broadcast broadcast. You all covered everything people know what's going on all the time now. 18:54 Well, there's a hungry consumer out there, right? They, they, they want to know more 18:58 they want. That's what I say when I say started. There's always good in my country with what it was. But now they're very well educated. They know what's going on all the time. 19:06 So what was what were some of the biggest challenges when you were doing that in regards of trying to get people to either listen to you or try the product? 19:14 Well, they listened. When you started talking to them, they really listened and this one he's a bourbon Sally's come along whiskies of the world and it's all over the world anywhere you go in the world, you know, for many years, and bourbon was strictly a Southern Gentleman strength. They got their cards or cigars and bourbon went to back room playing cards. That's where it comes in. How will you read old story you never drank bourbon till after five o'clock? Or somewhere? It's always five o'clock. Yeah. But that was always storing in his coming worldwide right now. The export market is huge. everywhere in the world. Now bourbon is really doing well. Were you because you were 19:56 I guess you consider yourself a pioneer when it comes to going out traveling and and talking about the whiskey. Were you nervous? 20:03 No, not really. No, I'm just playing. Oh, Jimmy. I'm saying Well, I mean, 20:08 at this point, yeah, you've stood up and you've talked in front of a bunch of people for quite a long time. And I know one of the things that was always relatively funny was Eddie would always say you know you didn't really do a whole lot of talking at home but you should see it the distiller you're doing you're doing your thing then you're always talking 20:25 well that's what he said the first trip he made with me. Then he come back home said Mama, you don't know that he said he's out here so you can keep him quiet. What 20:36 do you think you think you found like 20:40 like a new new happiness when you were when you were traveling of trying to find a way to connect with consumers I 20:45 had but I've always been people enjoy people. I'm a call myself a people's person. I like to be just like here. I tried to get down to Visitor Center at least once today. Talk to the venture see what they have to say about it. And my wife likes to come here to and on Saturdays. My family has breakfast to get we're family everything's open Joel except our home. That's all but we have breakfast together every Saturday morning. And we she'll come out with me actually she worked here for ideas even she worked here for eight years or children come along and she stayed home took care of the children and and we have Bing she likes come out here and see the vicious dog and they like see are so weak and then after church on Sunday we normally come out a little while on Sunday afternoons I get to spend more time in a visitor center that away for through the week. I got a job to do up there and I don't get down here as much. 21:41 So you know I think I remember this correctly. When you said your your wife Georgia, by the way it is now was this place called was it old tub or Old Joe? Is that what all 21:51 know it was Anderson County just still in 21:53 Anniston County. Okay. 21:54 And then one time was really brothers. And it was JT s brown at one time. And then been since 1971. has been Austin Nichols. 22:04 Gotcha. All right. We'll see. Mr. Sir. I'm learning something today as well. 22:08 They also Nichols company. They had their bourbon made here. It was shipped to New York and bottled in New York at that time. And they bought everything out here. Both the whiskey the day old already here. Um, it was already there. So they both and they didn't buy any other products at JDs brown at them. They didn't buy any of that. 22:30 Alright, so at what point so you were here during the entire Austin Nichols? 22:34 Since they've actually owned everything here in Kentucky. 22:38 Absolutely. So what was it like during that time to sit there and distill and then just ship everything away? Like what was what was the Lucille Ball and everything here? Okay, you're still doing that too? 22:48 Yeah, we're doing everything here. So talk about a little bit because that was in the 70s. Right. So it wasn't it wasn't the heyday for bourbon. No bourbon was true. Say back in that day and time bourbon restrictive Southern Gentleman. Right. So what was what was the, I guess you could say the are or the feeling that, you know, kind of went through a lot of the veins of people around here of what's going to happen with bourbon during that time. I mean, well, you know, before prohibition, it was 12 distilleries here in Lawrenceburg, Tennessee, Canada was known as one of the biggest selling cup places it was at that time. Most when I started with steel for here for roses known at nationals are still here in town. Old Joe distilling company was here, and Hoffman distillery was here, then we were here. So when I started the steel forward, now we're down to two four roses and us, 23:41 right. And so what what was what was the Old Joe and Hoffman? What? What kind of fate were they delivered? 23:47 Well, Joe was one of the oldest brands just our 1918 is one of the oldest, oldest brands, and they had several different brands. And in Auckland, they had half and broke. Then they started days were broke. Hmm, there was worried started, 24:04 which, from what I understand is Ezra Brooks was even a real person, right? 24:08 I thought he was I'm not sure. 24:11 Fancy. I don't know. I think that's been one of those biggest lords of bourbon. Nobody actually knows who Brooks actually is. I think it's just a fictional character. Good to be. 24:21 Jimmy Russell doesn't know I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and put my stake in the ground. It might be fictional. I might be right on that one you might be right. 24:29 So I kind of want to go back a little bit about, you know, your time on the road and what it was to to start doing that because you said you weren't nervous. But what was what was the reception of a lot of those people? You know, you'd said that they were they were listening. But do you think that that sort of help kick mark or sorry? kickstart the the market at the time for what we're seeing today? 24:53 Oh, yeah. say they've started wanting to learn about his dad and no, back to Ezra Brooks. Love the fellowship, Assyria his his first name was Ezra now well, that had anything to do with it. I don't know. I don't know either. I don't know either. But the fellow that owned all hapa distillery, while the owners first name was Israel, 25:11 we'll have to look into that. And put that on the research papers for later. But again, I cannot go back to your traveling, you know, the reception of those individuals and how that kind of kick started. So how long? And how many years? Were you traveling? And you're still doing a little bit not near 25:27 as much? Well, I'm still doing it in the States. I'm not going overseas at doing most of traveling overseas now. But, but I've been in just about every country in the world, who was talking about bourbon and say it's become a worldwide drink people's really educated and where you go in the world now. And so you have the bourbon side is in Japan, Australia, Europe, everywhere. Women in the bourbon women, the whiskey of the world and everything nowadays. 25:53 Absolutely. So do you. I guess I'm trying to find a good word to kind of summarize this with but when you're Did you did you look at that time traveling as as a good time to be able to do that? Or would you rather been back here at the distillery kind of overseeing a lot Oh, I enjoy 26:11 doing that. I would want to be a distillery. I wouldn't want to do it all the time. Like la the ambassador's is now they're on the road all the time. But every so often be out on the road and see what two people has to say, you know, you make it, agent, bottle it and ship it out. Unless you had complaints. And we've had very few of them over the years. You never heard any more about it. This way. When you're out in the field, you get to meet people. It's enjoying it and drink it and hear what they have to say about it. 26:40 So when we talk about just the whiskey in general, what do you what do you look at as some of the more brands that that you fall in love with? You know, we've talked to Eddie and and you know, he talked about everybody's got their baby, right? Everybody's got their baby. And so he looks as Kentucky spirit and rare breed. We're really your babies. Yes, 26:59 Kentucky's spirit and Blanton's was the first two single barrels on the market. Way back in early 90s. The first two barrel proofs on the market was Booker's and rare breed and that was late 80s, early 90s. Now everybody that has them but they were the first to own the market. 27:16 So kind of talk about what the Kentucky spirit line really is and what it kind of means to you as well 27:21 the Kentucky spirits of single barrel your hand selected and selected one when you say single barrel has come one barrel and one barrel only. So you're selected. Now here way we do it. Every barrel has a little different taste, even though it's the same going in his way of white oak tree grows in the woods has effect on a tree. I use simple terms. You plant flowers around your home all the way around someone who better on one side or another cause you get more sun more rain or same with white oak trees. So we were selected, were selected consistent taste Now we have this barrel program or bars restaurants, distributors can come in and select their own barrel. We'll have some more spicy pans on the wood some lyst because they know their customer we're trying to please everybody who are they know their customers and they were picking one one of my wanting more spicy one might not want is spicy. So when we're selecting the single barrels 28:19 so the I mean how often were you actually going through and testing some of these Kentucky spirit barrels to see if they matched up profile that people would want to come in and actually purchase them 28:30 we we've always done that we check everything we're Hey, we don't control our grains check before it's ever unloaded, we check it actually grounded. We check it when it's been cooked. We check the firm owners we taste a new product before it ever goes into barrel and then we check new barrels make sure they meet our standard we use a number for heavy char we make sure everything meets our standards before 28:54 so it's like it's like you almost have like a battle of wills here right because you've got this you got this heavy lean on consistency where you're saying like yes, we've got one mash bill we go in one entry proof we do this we do this that have this level of consistency and it's like but we're going to come up with a product where every single thing is different 29:13 you know me I like to be consistent even though I've come up with American honey I've come up with several different experiments over the years but you know I use simple terms Yeah, I certain foods and if I don't like taste them but I'm not gonna eat them again. 29:31 Like what like what foods you're not gonna try again? 29:36 Yeah, cuz simple. It feels like people say like, I'm too old to eat this anymore. I'm gonna enjoy the rest of what I'm going to eat. 29:41 Well my wife sure she says I too much steak and beef. 29:46 You can't have enough steak. That's BBQ Yeah, there you go. What about stuff that you you're not going to touch? Anything that you're not going to touch anymore? No Really? 29:55 Mo is not very few thanks to that. Oh like 30:00 Alright, so let's talk a little bit about the warehouse is here. So it seems like you probably know every every nook and cranny of a lot of these things right? So do you have Do you have a favorite warehouse 30:10 you know to me, most of them. If you sit near you see they all said about the same level. Get same airflow, get same air flow and everything it or some places are you know they're down in valleys different places. But here we're good now at likes a and b warehouse he says it is but you know he gets something in your mind you believe it but I may. I don't see a lot of division er houses. 30:38 What about the floors Do you have a particular floor that you're akin to? 30:41 Well the third fourth fifth floors ideal aging. The first and second floors at same story warehouses. It can be 30 degrees difference between the top floors and the bottom floors. It ages two faced on the top floors and don't age fast enough on the bottom floors. So at times you have to rotate bottom the middle forces idea who managed in temperature and all that there's not that big change in it so but the bottom folders and top floors it is if you use over an hour going to the warehouse you start up steps every floor use field difference in the heat on up. 31:16 So why do you think they stopped? What do you stop at seven place? Why would you go like a 50 story warehouse? 31:25 Do you love bourbon? How about festivals? course you do. So join bourbon pursuit in Frankfort, Kentucky on August 24 for bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. You will get to taste from over 60 different bourbon spirits, wine and beer vendors plus 20 food vendors all happening with live music. Learn more about bourbon from the master distillers themselves that you've heard on the show and enjoy food from award winning chefs. The $65 ticket price covers everything. Don't wait get yours at bourbon on the banks.org and through June 30 you can get your discounted ticket offer two tickets for the low price of $110 when using the code be EOB 2019 during checkout at bourbon on the banks.org 32:18 Hey everyone, 32:19 Ryan here and I know when I celebrate a weekend with friends I want to bring some of my best bourbon. However, if I'm on the car, a plane is not convenient. Plus my bottles are clanging around they're not really secure. So I have the perfect solution. 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They apply their expertise from brewing and began distilling at beer barrel finished whiskey began production 2012 and rock house was the club is featuring it in their next box. The barrels come from Tennessee get filled a dragon's milk beer twice the mature bourbon is finished in those very same barrels. Rocco's whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories from craft distillers across the US. Along with two bottles of hard to find whiskey rack houses boxes are full of cool merchandise that they ship out every two months to members in over 40 states go to rock house whiskey club com to check it out. And try a bottle of beer barrel bourbon and beer barrel rye use code pursue for $25 off your first box 34:00 so why do you think they stop what do you stop at seven place? Why would you go like a 50 story warehouse like what would be the will be the the ideal way of not doing something like that? Well 34:10 I don't know how that would look but it'd be monstrous it'd be monsters but to back in that day in time they didn't have all this quit but you have now they they had police horses pulling the barrels up to the top floors. Oh really? Yes. 34:25 Yeah cuz i guess i mean i've seen you've seen you can go in some of these these warehouses and you do see the you can see like the pulleys and you do see like essentially like almost like an elevator shaft you put it on pull it up 34:37 cool isn't it? That's what they don't leave these two for prohibition here. 34:41 They didn't like put a put a backpack on you with a rope and make you go 34:46 away man does I now you have Rick and machines and all the put them up into three tour. So used to tear Rick's back Ned day we call the dropper she had a cable with hooks on the end. And you looped it up over the for Buffy and one fellow would hope to borrow was a hoax and I'll be back pulling them up earlier than Rick now you have all kinds of equipment to handle it now. Yeah, same way taking them out. You had to take them out the same way. 35:12 So what other I mean let's let's go ahead and rewind the clocks of time here right so during your time what other type of innovations have you seen when it comes to just yeah, either that's rolling barrels or wrecking barrels or dumping or anything like that that sort of either made it easier or just 35:28 it's made it easier you got better equipment now everything's better equipment, you know in the dump room used to knock the bone out of every barrel still. Now we got you got a bone puller pulls the barrels out soaks $1 now same way and fill in barrels you field every barrel, you had to drive the bone and it rolled it out. And it's a lot of those things is better equipment. Now that's why I say our forum and everything, we haven't changed anything. We just have so much better equipment now than you did and everybody to steal you run it by hand you had one hand on the steam veil, want to head on flow veil and you actually you got to be consistent improves on your steel if you prove runs up and down on the steel the flavors are going to be up and down. So you have to be consistent get good if you want consistent taste and flavor you gotta run the same prove all day long. 36:21 So I guess now it's a lot easier because it's all probably computer controlled 36:26 with how we have computers but we still at hand operators are still doing it by hand I can sit there and 36:32 click on click a mouse and I can make it like that and 36:35 then they had when we're grind and grind that has to be their meals we're cooking a cooker fella has been around the cooker we're filling the first matter yes be there so we're still got a computer city have sitting around doing some buy in and that's still in the middle of steel is about 240 degrees and it was hot back in that day and time setting imagine you got air conditioning control room for no sudden oh 37:04 yeah now they're just they're living life of kings or is so he you got to see the hard days hard days everything done by hand 37:12 Yes. 37:13 So let's let's talk a little bit more about the the distillation pieces of it so you've got one match but let you do for all the Bourbons but you also have a ride 37:21 around Nashville right? So talk a little about the rye when was that introduced? Like because I know for a while you know you used to have wild turkey from Maryland source oh not a store it is like bourbon even to this day you have allowed people to bourbon can be made distinctive product United States of America. And a lot of people thanks has been made in Tokyo it's not bourbon. When I started in Radwan made in Maryland, Pennsylvania. It wasn't rat whiskey rye was dominant grain on the East Coast when they come here and that's what they first started us probably George Washington was one of the first distillers I'll get this question all time who's the first distiller someone says a words I you know what I say? The first old farmer got over the mountains got a steel set up claims at the first and Is that another so I don't know whether anybody really knows who really registered still rewards. 38:17 Now that's going to be a mystery that will never going to solve. So back to the rye You know? So when was that when was that introduced here? Because I'd we had mentioned that it was it was sourced at one point for wild turkey 38:31 well it made in Pennsylvania were made for us in Pennsylvania. Okay, but we've ever since I've been here we bottle right? Then we started Mike or own 38:41 probably 38:43 late 60s early 70s. Most rise says 95% 100% rise. Ours is old fashioned formula. It's got raw corn, corn and barley. And that's way that if you look back to original recipes for and Pennsylvania, Maryland as well, they were 39:00 right. So I mean that's so you're keeping the same Nashville that you you sort of were even right. You can consider that contract was stealing if you were taking it out of out of Maryland and bring it back here. Is that 39:12 technically what it was? No, they was making it for us. 39:15 Yeah. Wasn't that considered contract distilling 39:17 or they was gone? Yeah. Same way bother stores in Kentucky right now. does a lot of social media does still brands, it does not have the story as Nautica, and that's what's made the bourbon market short right now, a lot of Bourbons made such a huge jump in the last seven or eight years. Same way as a lot of them were selling bourbon, other people live in a barn and lived under other brands. And now they're shorter bourbon. 39:43 So what's your what's your what's your take on that? Do you think? Are you a fan of indie peas or non distilling producers? Do you 39:51 think? Well, you know, they're making it for people how they want by either I guess or how they want it done. But no, monastery is Bowser says bourbon or rye all have come out of hit on it right. 40:06 Rising Tide raises all ships and right that's that's the way to look at it. So So yeah, so you've been doing that for a while. Rare Breed is the the barrel proof baby of yours. So kind of talk about the inception of that. 40:21 Well, actually, we were tasted we sample say we sample everything we're saying was Asian each year sitting here in LA the visitors come in, we'd be safe and we would sample right in the warehouse at that time. Dr. Bone had a thief pulled our Berlin sampler dr. Terry lovers come in KFC. Why can we get some of this? Why can't we get some of that? That's what brought to me. That's what brought the idea for us here that if they've wanted, that we could probably make it happen. Right? Right. It's easy enough to just not just basically just dump it right away. Don't need to prove it down too much. Right? You can't prove it that Yeah, not can prove it down. Actually, the only thing you can do is put a little water behind it to clean out your filters. Because you got a filter to get this so much at char HR and dump trolls. You'll see big flakes a char and Eric comes loose in that barrel. Then you have a lot of little fan jar that you had to filter to get f5 Charla, 41:21 a lot of people like that fine char at least some of the whiskey geeks What about you, do you when you when you have the opportunity to just go and sample something or go ahead and just fill up your own bottle? Whatever it is, do you get a little bit of that just barrel char sitting around in there? Do you 41:34 like that? Really, you don't get with a thief pull it out. You don't get that in there when he jumped the barrel and get everything out of it. 41:41 Right. But are you a fan of it? Because Because he don't be people like people? I mean, I I don't know. I look at it and you're like, Oh, it's kind of like an extra little little thing about having the bottles you can can you swirl it around you can see that 41:52 a lot of people's like so something wrong with it when they see that is what it is. 41:57 Yeah, I could see a probably a general consumer market would probably look at it like that. The same reason why everybody went to chill filtration at one point because you put ice in it and all of a sudden looks cloudy, but now we're starting to see this shift or this turn where people are, they're asking for, you know, non shelf. They're asking for throw a little piece of char in there for good measure. So I know 42:20 I know, I know it's authentic or something, you know, actually we never use chill for it depends on the proof. It depends on how much water you're adding when you cut it down whether the show failed or not. So at one on one prove up in just a few years ago we never geophones this tall it that what will happen to it. If you say you're shipping it from here and maybe 40 degrees goes to Canada 20 below, they get cloudy and hazy. And that's what you're doing. You're checking out some of those sayings. They won't get that away when you chill. 43:00 Now there's there's always the the never ending debate or story. If you do chill filter it are you removing any flavor. 43:10 Well, unless you see by federal law, if you move so much flavor, you can't call the bourbon anymore. So now you are doing very little flavors. 43:22 So you don't think it's really affecting anything you think it's more of a aesthetic. 43:26 Yeah, it's a now in the lower proves if you're adding a lot of water. See we're not a rule of thumb. It takes about a gallon of water Drew's 100 gallons of bourbon one proof point. So our barrel proof right now is 116.8. And we bonded one on one. You had very little water to it. That is coming on that barrel. 140 something you couldn't have 80 proof you had a lot of water to it. Absolutely. Because we just seal distill it low proof and put it in a barrel at low Bruce to say Hi, are you still were allowed to steal up? 160 proof? Hmm. And I use simple terms. You like to eat steak? 44:05 Do you want it well done or you want to medium rare? Yeah, 44:08 you like it? Well done. 44:10 I'm not a well done fan. I'm a medium medium rare. Just you don't get a lot of the those flavors you 44:15 answer my question. 44:18 You're taking the flavor. Hello. 44:20 Yeah, I mean, so it sounds like your state guy we were talking about already. So 44:27 are you uh, yeah, ribeye fillet. What's your what's your 44:30 what's your Academy? Like on the primary of verse your prime rib guy? I didn't even think about that row horse race choices. 44:37 Oh, yeah. That's so Joe Redis she had she had prime rib cooker for you go out around. Yeah. 44:45 You know, when the children are growing up, she cooked all the time. And now just the two of us and she never knows what time I'm getting home at nights. So weed out just if I'm in town, we added lunch. And you know, it's bad when you go restaurants now and they bring the teeth to you. Like what we said, 45:05 Jane? Yeah, well, I mean, you're here in Lawrenceburg. So I'm sure everybody probably knows you by name, that's for sure. Right. 45:10 Lehman likes to their place to we go to Lex and a lot of course I got a lot more restaurants and we have here in Lawrenceburg. 45:18 Absolutely. And so let's let's kind of talk about you know your time here at the distillery now you spend a lot of time down at the gift shop, chicken, some hand sign and bottles. 45:27 Try to get down at least once today, but I'm in distillery. Most all the time. I try to get to this person or at least once to today, usually about this time they afternoon. course they get off. Regular workers gets off at 330. So I'll usually go down our late night afternoons and sit around. I like 45:48 is it about you think it's the best part of your day? Or do you just like to have a healthy balance of getting in front of people? 45:52 I want to hear what people have to say. You know, I'm on the list and see what they have to say. Uh huh. 46:01 And plus you've got your your scooter, your own personalized scooter down there. 46:05 They had two bunnies. I can't get around and he feels he goes in these fields and I write it down here. 46:12 Right. Really? Okay, so it's an off road kind of guy. 46:16 Yes. Run 40 miles an hour on the road. Well, you 46:19 could just take it to the McDonald's parking lot if you're getting hungry today. Right. 46:23 It's not lost in Mattoon last night for the road he's got turns angles narrow lane. They bought that special for me I didn't even know that he's getting it till one day they said we need you down to Visitor Center will what it was I thought somebody that are wanting bottles I walked in and hey, come pushing that out. Sit here. This is what you go around around. 46:45 But you actually came up here we're recording outside on this hill. You actually came up here in your car you're looking actually drove up here on that? Yes. And now if had been the first for the week? Well, they tease me about this. You know what I draw most of the time 46:59 when you got most of the time 47:00 1998 Ford pickup truck. four wheel drive. Yeah, now I feel as well. And my wife forgot to her for Christmas. She's never drove it much so it's been sitting in the garage for three weeks so I told her to get out and drive Yeah, well battery dies, right? Well, it's it's only got 4000 miles on it. Yeah, and I'm driving a whole lot then well $2,000 we go to Destin Florida we're vacation Fourth of July we we drove down back so to 47:31 see now everybody that lives out in the the Destin region they know where to catch you when it when it comes time to for family vacations and stuff like that is so the other thing that you know I kind of want to talk about just kind of kind of wrap it up with some more bourbon talk is over the years you know you've had your hands in a lot of the releases that have come out and stuff like that you've handed a lot over to Eddie as well and then you've everybody's what he's really banging on Bruce to really move here now. We've I've been I've been sensing that a lot recently. You know where do you kind of see the the lineage going? I mean you excited to have to have Bruce come into here and do you think he's gonna do a good job like what do you think that's gonna be like? 48:11 Well like he said if he if he says I don't do something the heavens me. 48:17 Me and Bruce holdovers from there 48:22 but this is saying I enjoy so much about to bourbon business. All of us are close friends here in Kentucky if one of them gets in trouble others doing is anything they can to help them out. And we talked about Booker know Elmer Lee and part rain we all grew up together. Fred Nolan he grew up together at Parker son Craig been they they're about the same age they grew up together. But Craig had to give it up you know Parker old friend of mine he had Ellis disease engages in his 70s he got the point tour he still could talk all right he couldn't do anything they have big trucking company isn't cattle farms. So Craig had to give it up and stay in taking care of the farms and all now you got Bruce and free its own free little free together now so steal that vision is going on in 49:16 yeah i mean you do see this this family lineage is happening across pretty much pretty much all of them right i mean there's there's something that that there is to be said about that 49:27 little bit different on the heaven Hill side right let disappears disappears and more more business focused rather than distilling focused but the only thing known is to relive 49:37 all of this is Sharon before and countries are stock 49:41 so at one point would you would you rather had the opportunity to like buy back wild turkey and put it under the Russell name? No, we never did own it. Yeah. Well not buy it back. I'm just saying like if the opportunity presented itself or was just something that probably would never would have happened and it wouldn't happen yeah. 49:58 Yeah, it's the know it's very costly. Yes, yes, very costly. And see, most sayings if you don't turn your inventory winter for months, you're not going to be in business very long. See here we're not thinking about even turned inventory with the same date 10 to 12 years from now. So we got a lot of money tied up space in the state of Kentucky we pay a tax on each barrels and since you're in ages, yes the state of Kentucky 50:26 now you'd also mentioned 12 years but from what I understand and what I remember is that you're you're more of a like a seven to eight year old bourbon guys the 50:34 same to toys with seven to 12 Yeah, now we do an older limitation ever was while we put out 14 year old 15 the same thing the decades if we just finished the ad put out it's got 10 to 20 year old version, but it's just a few barrels and we we keep our record bottling one a lot 1400 Barroso badge bother in a small but there's no such term as small badge 50:59 now you can doesn't 51:00 really matter you can call whatever you want ours is about 100 250 barrels who were tasted all the time we found somebody thanks agent a little extra special will set them aside and keep taste them and if he starts getting that woody okie taste like a lot of would know he tastes you like an older bourbon but I don't like it and he starts getting that we can move them down at the bottom of our house and slow at age and down. We can't move same hundred thousand barrels as well on the inventory right now. 51:26 So I guess let's let's talk about that with Woody and okie bourbon because there is kind of a shift in the way that consumers are looking at buying bourbon when it comes to like a whiskey geek market right when people are coming out with crazy age data 2327 year old Bourbons and they do they've got this like heavy okie painting panicky kind of taste and flavor to it. However people like you are saying that's that's probably not the way you should be drinking personal taste Yeah, 51:57 how much it's your taste you drink whatever you live with this not my taste so 52:02 why is it that you think that 52:05 I would say a new whiskey geek or new whiskey consumer gets totally enthralled with this large number on the package rather than the taste and 52:15 it's a lot of people thanks older it is a better it is now go back to scotch which I know a lot about that to see they're using barrels has been used to us as I get as we 1516 years old to really get some good taste in it because they're using barrels and we've already used and the one thing about it when they start using your barrels they want to keep using them goes and eight years we lose about a third of a barrel is soaks into the wood and they're getting some flavor allied barrel so if they used our barrels one year beams or makers or Buffalo Trace and then it's going to change the taste of their product and that's one thing it's like food and all I want to taste the same everytime i don't i don't want some food taste this way tonight. Next week it tastes different way I don't 53:08 there's a lot of variations you can do to mac and cheese 53:12 anymore right and then you know that's funny saying mac and cheese now is all over the world he used to be he didn't see much but they were you going to world as mac and cheese they got it all now so many different ways they fix it now and cookies 53:29 Do you have a favorite mac and cheese rest we could just turn this into mac and cheese pursuit because I think there's there's not a lot of people that don't like mac and cheese 53:35 right. 53:37 Joe rata make a good mac and cheese. We don't eat much. No no mac and cheese for 53:41 all much anymore. My parents put two majors in it. 53:45 Really? 53:46 That's a new one. Here they their mac and cheese when I was growing up had two majors in it that see I don't think I've ever had that. 53:55 I can always try it though. I can always try. So we're gonna wrap it up with with one one last question here. And this actually came from a listener. His name is Jeremy. And he said me myself of several people that I know love visiting the distillery we love to visit with Jimmy for an hour. So he's a good rich source of information and bourbon lore. Now, he kind of wants to ask, what's a couple things to like an advice that you would give of things or codes to live by for younger generations? 54:24 me do it. Like I said a while ago, do it right or don't do it at all. Don't try to change keep consistent taste and flavor and all the time. Don't keep changing different times as you say to him says I'm hard headed in ways but I've done a lot of experiment in over the years with American honey with the barrels has been a scotch different barrels and everything. I've done a lot of experiment over the years but I stay strictly to old tradition doing it the right way. 54:57 Well, that's that's the bourbon side. But just in life in general. And life in general. What what what do you have some good, some good little tidbits that you can hand down to young generations of whether it's Don't work too hard? Maybe it's just enjoy what you love, whatever it is, enjoy 55:14 what you love. Don't try to be somebody who are not. That's what, you know, I don't I hope you see I'm not put on the plane Zambia, just, that's something I'm a piece of trash put on a big spiel. And I'm not if I really had 55:31 deep thoughts with with plain old Jimmy right. Alright. So let's go ahead, we'll wrap it up right there. So make sure that if you get the opportunity to come to Lawrenceburg and visit Wild Turkey, try to figure out was we're recording around three o'clock right now four o'clock, he said he's usually down at the visitor center then. So that's when you know is probably a good time to go catch him. Or you can ask the visitor center and I'll be glad to come down there and salty. There you go. You can do that as well. Right. So he'll do that for our panel cast. Listen, I will. Jimmy thank you so much for hopping on the show today. It was a pleasure to talk to you and you know, capture a lot of that good information. I'm sure we all learned something new every single time and I think we're gonna have to go back and figure out who this Ezra Brooks character was. 56:14 Yeah. Well, thank you for coming and being with us. We enjoy it anytime. You're always welcome here anytime you want to come 56:19 back, except your house right. Now that 56:22 that's all. We're family. 56:24 It's okay. I'll accept that. I'll accept that. Would you be surprised? 56:29 I'm not good on these computers. Other people tell me I saw we were home on 56:36 the internet. No. 56:39 Well, you know where you live? 56:40 Yeah, that's that's the that's the scary thing about it. gotta hide your address. 56:46 No, I'm in the phone. My name is in the phone book here and everything. 56:49 Oh, well. There you go. You can you can you can find them in the local Lawrence County phone book. Right. So with that, I want to say Jimmy, thank you again for coming on the show today. It was a pleasure to have you. That's how you can find Jimmy and I can meet him I'm sure we already talked about it will be back down in Destin, Florida at some point soon. And who knows you might see him at your favorite liquor store across the country signing bottles. 57:10 Thank you, sir. Appreciate you come. Say you're always welcome. Anytime you want to go. 57:15 I appreciate it. And make sure you follow bourbon pursuit on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. And if you do like what you hear you want to see more interviews with legends like Jimmy, make sure you support us patreon.com pa te r eo in comm slash bourbon pursuit. That's how we're able to keep buying new equipment, putting miles on the car and making these good interviews happen. So with that, I want to say thank you again and we'll see everybody next week. 57:40 Cheers.

Our next stop with Rocko's Modern Life we talk about two episodes starring the creator of the show, Joe Murray. Both episodes touch on the life of Ralph Bighead, an avatar for Joe Murray and a few of the writers on the show. Not only are talking Rocko, this is our first BAM show in months.

Hello, everyone. Hoje eu falo sobre idioms super comuns com a palavra together. Enjoy! Transcrição Hello, everyone. You're listening to the new episode of the Inglês Online podcast, and today I'm going to talk about a few idioms with the word together. They're very common and you'll hear them all the time in daily conversation, so listen on. Here's one of them: put our heads together, or put their heads together, or your heads. Let's say you were asked by your boss to find some kind of solution to a problem, and, after thinking about it for a while you realise that Joe, the head of the sales team, has some information that would likely be useful in solving this problem. So you go ahead and give Joe a ring, and you say "Hi Joe, my boss has asked me to find a solution to problem XYZ. I know you've been affected by it as well and you've got some experience on the topic, so I thought we'd get to the solution much faster if we put our heads together and try and figure this thing out." "Let's put our heads together" means let's get together and talk about this thing. Let's discuss it, let's hear each other's ideas and brainstorm together. This way, we will figure things out much faster. You'll hear this idiom a lot in offices where people are used to getting together and discussing problems, or in companies where teamwork is encouraged. Let's put our heads together and find a solution to this problem. Or, Karen and Steve weren't able to find a solution individually, but I'm sure if they put their heads together they'll get there. Here's a related proverb: two heads are better then one. Same idea underlying "let's put our heads together" - one head may not be able to come up with a plan to fix this issue, but with two heads we've got a better chance. Do we have our own idioms to say this kind of thing in Brazil? If you know, please leave a comment - I want to know. And here's the other "together" idiom of today: get your act together. If someone at work, for example, tells you to get your act together, they're, well... saying you should probably change your behaviour a little bit. You should become more organised and generally function a bit better. They probably think that your desk is a bit of a mess, or maybe you've been turning in your reports a bit late, or the last couple of times you participated in company meetings you were slightly unprepared and your performance left much to be desired. So that person - let's say it's your boss - tells you "You need to get your act together and start making your desk presentable. I also expect you to turn in your reports on time, and come to meetings better prepared. Get organised and be efficient about your work. Get your act together!" This idiom can be used in personal situations as well - let's say Tim's girlfriend broke up with him six months ago and Tim is still so depressed about it that he hasn't cleaned his place in months! There's dust and dirt everywhere and also, a strange smell coming from the kitchen. You are a good friend of Tim's and therefore it's your job to finally tell him "Tim, enough is enough, my friend. I know you're in pain but you have to get on with your life. Look around you! There's filth everywhere. You have got to get your act together starting now, clean up this mess and move on." What are your examples? Let me know in the comments and talk to you next time!   Key idioms put (people's) heads together get (someone's) act together   Vocabulary enough is enough = já chega, já deu filth = sujeira, imundície  

Hello, everyone. Hoje eu falo sobre idioms super comuns com a palavra together. Enjoy! Transcrição Hello, everyone. You're listening to the new episode of the Inglês Online podcast, and today I'm going to talk about a few idioms with the word together. They're very common and you'll hear them all the time in daily conversation, so listen on. Here's one of them: put our heads together, or put their heads together, or your heads. Let's say you were asked by your boss to find some kind of solution to a problem, and, after thinking about it for a while you realise that Joe, the head of the sales team, has some information that would likely be useful in solving this problem. So you go ahead and give Joe a ring, and you say "Hi Joe, my boss has asked me to find a solution to problem XYZ. I know you've been affected by it as well and you've got some experience on the topic, so I thought we'd get to the solution much faster if we put our heads together and try and figure this thing out." "Let's put our heads together" means let's get together and talk about this thing. Let's discuss it, let's hear each other's ideas and brainstorm together. This way, we will figure things out much faster. You'll hear this idiom a lot in offices where people are used to getting together and discussing problems, or in companies where teamwork is encouraged. Let's put our heads together and find a solution to this problem. Or, Karen and Steve weren't able to find a solution individually, but I'm sure if they put their heads together they'll get there. Here's a related proverb: two heads are better then one. Same idea underlying "let's put our heads together" - one head may not be able to come up with a plan to fix this issue, but with two heads we've got a better chance. Do we have our own idioms to say this kind of thing in Brazil? If you know, please leave a comment - I want to know. And here's the other "together" idiom of today: get your act together. If someone at work, for example, tells you to get your act together, they're, well... saying you should probably change your behaviour a little bit. You should become more organised and generally function a bit better. They probably think that your desk is a bit of a mess, or maybe you've been turning in your reports a bit late, or the last couple of times you participated in company meetings you were slightly unprepared and your performance left much to be desired. So that person - let's say it's your boss - tells you "You need to get your act together and start making your desk presentable. I also expect you to turn in your reports on time, and come to meetings better prepared. Get organised and be efficient about your work. Get your act together!" This idiom can be used in personal situations as well - let's say Tim's girlfriend broke up with him six months ago and Tim is still so depressed about it that he hasn't cleaned his place in months! There's dust and dirt everywhere and also, a strange smell coming from the kitchen. You are a good friend of Tim's and therefore it's your job to finally tell him "Tim, enough is enough, my friend. I know you're in pain but you have to get on with your life. Look around you! There's filth everywhere. You have got to get your act together starting now, clean up this mess and move on." What are your examples? Let me know in the comments and talk to you next time! Key idioms put (people's) heads together get (someone's) act together Vocabulary enough is enough = já chega, já deu filth = sujeira, imundície

  Carolyn: Welcome to Circulation on the Run, your weekly podcast summary and backstage pass to the journal and its editors. I'm Dr. Carolyn Nam, Associate Editor from the National Heart Center and Duke-National University of Singapore. Today's featured discussion deals with the perspective piece entitled, What I Wish Clinicians Knew About Industry and Vice Versa. Intriguing, isn't it? I can tell you it is one of the best papers I have ever read, so stay tuned. First, here's your summary of this week's journal.     The first study takes a step towards understanding atrial fibrillation on a more fundamental level by demonstrating that some patients have altered left ventricular myocardial energetics even in the absence of other comorbid diseases. First author, Dr. [Veejay Surendra 00:00:50], corresponding author, Dr. [Cassidy 00:00:53] and colleagues from the University of Oxford studied 53 patients with lone atrial fibrillation undergoing catheter ablation and compared them to 25 matched controls without atrial fibrillation. They did this using sequential studies of cardiac function with magnetic resonance imaging as well as energetics with phosphorus-31 magnetic resonance spectroscopy.     At baseline, there was subtle but significant left ventricular dysfunction and abnormalities in ventricular energetics in patients relative to controls. Following ablation of atrial fibrillation, left ventricular function measured by ejection fraction and peak systolic circumferential strain improved rapidly with a switch to sinus rhythm but remained at normal at 6 to 9 months. Although pulmonary vein isolation effectively eliminated atrial fibrillation in all the patients in the study, the hearts continued to express an energetic profile consistent with a myopathic phenotype meaning that the ratio of phosphocreatine to adenosine triphosphate was lower in the atrial fibrillation compared to controls irrespective of recovery of sinus rhythm and freedom from recurring atrial fibrillation.     The clinical implications of these findings are that apparently lone atrial fibrillation may actually be a consequence rather than a cause of an occult cardiomyopathy and that this cardiomyopathy is unaffected by ablation. Of course, future studies are needed to prove this and to examine whether therapeutic strategies that target the adverse cardiometabolic phenotype could reduce atrial fibrillation recurrence. These important issues are discussed in an accompanying editorial by Doctors Hyman and Callans.     The next study provides experimental evidence that suggests we may finally have an answer to heart failure preserved ejection fraction or HFpEF, and that is the modification of titin. Titin is a sarcomeric protein that functions as a molecular spring and contributes greatly to left ventricular passive stiffness. The spring properties can be tuned through post-transcriptional and post-translational processes and their derangement has been shown to contribute to diastolic dysfunction in patients with HFpEF. The current paper by first author, Dr. Methawasin, corresponding author, Dr. Granzier and colleagues from University of Arizona provide important proof of principal investigation of the effects of manipulation of titin isoforms as a treatment for a transverse aortic constriction murine model of progressive left ventricular hypertrophy leading to HFpEF.     Conditional expression of a transgene with deletion of the RNA recognition motif for one of the splicing factor, RBM20 alleles, resulted in reduced splicing and a substantial increase in larger more compliant titins that were named super compliant titin. The result was normalization of passive stiffness of isolated muscle strips as well as normalization of left ventricular diastolic function and chamber stiffness as assessed by echocardiography and pressure volume analyses. There were no effects on extracellular matrix stiffness. The authors also showed that other spliced targets of RBM20 did not contribute to the results and thus, the beneficial effects were almost certainly entirely related to the changes in titin isoforms.     Furthermore, treadmill exercise was used to show that treated animals displayed improved exercise tolerance. In summary, the study showed that increasing titin compliance in this murine model resulted in marked improvement in multiple measures of diastolic function and performance, thus suggesting that titin holds promise as a therapeutic target in HFpEF. This is the discussed in an excellent accompanying editorial by Dr. LeWinter and Dr. Zile.     The next study adds importantly to evidence that heavy physical exertion and anger or emotional upset may act as triggers of first myocardial infarction. In this paper by first author, Dr. Smith, corresponding author, Dr. Yusuf, and colleagues from the Population Health Research Institute Hamilton Health Sciences and Master University, authors explored the triggering association of acute physical activity, anger, and emotional upset with acute myocardial infarction. They did this in the inter-heart study which was a case control study of first acute myocardial infarction in 52 countries. In the current analysis, the authors used a case crossover approach to estimate odds ratios for acute myocardial infarction occurring within 1 hour of triggers.     Of 12,461 cases, 13.6% engaged in physical activity and 14.4% were angry or emotionally upset in the case period referring to the 1 hour before symptom onset. Physical activity in the case period was associated with an increased odds of acute myocardial infarction with an odds ratio of 2.3 and a population attributable risk of 7.7%. Anger or emotional upset in the case period was associated with an increased odds of acute myocardial infarction of more than 2.4 odds ratio and a population attributable risk of 8.5%. Importantly, there was no effect modification by geographic region, prior cardiovascular disease, cardiovascular risk factor burden, prevention medications, time of day, or day of onset of acute myocardial infarction.     Interestingly, the authors did find an interaction between heavy physical exertion and anger or emotional upset with an additive association in participants with exposure to both in the 1 hour prior to the acute myocardial infarction. The take home message, these findings suggest that clinicians should advice patients to minimize exposure to extremes of anger or emotional upset due to the potential risk of triggering an acute myocardial infarction. While heavy or vigorous physical exertion may also be a trigger, this did not refer to just any physical activity and the authors cautioned that this must be balanced against the known well-established benefits of regular physical activity over the long term and clinicians should continue to advice patients about the life-long benefits of exercise.     The last study provides insights in the molecular mechanism in pulmonary hypertension. First author, Dr. Lee, corresponding author, Dr. Stenmark, and colleagues from the Pediatric Critical Care Meds and CVP Research University of Colorado Denver hypothesized that metabolic reprogramming to aerobic glycolysis may be a critical adaptation of fibroblast in the hypertensive vessel wall, an adaptation that drives proliferative and pro-inflammatory activation through a mechanism specifically involving increased activity of the NADH sensitive transcriptional corepressor, C-terminal-binding protein 1.     The authors assessed glycolytic reprogramming and measured NADH to NAD+ ratio in bovine and human adventitial fibroblast as well as mouse lung tissues. They found that expression of the C-terminal-binding protein 1 was increased in fibroblast within the primary adventitia of humans with idiopathic pulmonary arterial hypertension and animals with pulmonary hypertension. Furthermore, treatment of fibroblast from the pulmonary hypertensive vessels of hypoxic mice with a pharmacological inhibitor of C-terminal-binding protein 1 led to a normalization of proliferation inflammation and the aberrant metabolic signaling.     In summary, these result showed that C-terminal-binding protein 1, a transcription factor that is activated by increased free NADH acts as a molecular linker to drive the proliferative and pro-inflammatory phenotype of adventitial fibroblast within the hypertensive vessel wall. Thus, this metabolic sensor may be a more specific target for treating metabolic abnormalities in pulmonary hypertension. Those were your summaries. Now for our feature paper. Our feature today is special on so many levels, and because it's so special, I actually have Dr. Joe Hill, editor-in-chief of circulation from UT Southwestern here today with me. Hi Joe.   Joe: Sure. As always, it's a pleasure to be here with you. This is a new type of content where we solicit thought leaders from a variety of vantage points around the cardiovascular space to provide their perspective on the future of cardiovascular Science in medicine. Rob Califf, the FDA Commissioner, provided his perspective on the regulatory role interfacing with cardiovascular medicine and Science. Victor Dzau who presides over the National Academy of Medicine in the United States did the same, provided a very insightful perspective from his vantage point now, formerly in academia, but now overseeing this advisory board to the policy makers in Congress. Today, we're going to talk about a perspective that emerges from industry, from someone who also has a strong and long history in academia.   Carolyn: That is a perfect lead up. The title of the paper; What I Wish Clinicians Knew About Industry and Vice Versa. Here is the amazing guest that we have today, it's Dr. Ken Stein, Chief Medical Office of Rhythm Management at Boston Scientific. Hi Ken. It is a very, very intriguing title and I'd like you to first describe to us what makes you the person who can talk about being a clinician and going over to the dark side of industry and vice versa?   Ken: Thanks Carolyn and Joe. I think right now just get over my embarrassment at being called a thought leader and being mentioned in the same as Rob Califf and Victor Dzau. I met both of them but I don't think I've ever been mentioned in the same sentence as either them and probably never will be again. Why me to do this? Again very gracious of Joe to invite the submission. My history, I've been in industry now at Boston Scientific for 7 years, and prior to that was an unreformed academic faculty at Cornell. Ever since I did my training, eventually becoming co-director of the EP Lab there for many years. Then 7 years ago, the opportunity came up to leave the cloistered ivory towers of academia and to join industry. It's been a very interesting and I think very productive ride ever since.   Carolyn: I have to tell you that your article is just one of the most well-written pieces I have ever read and I mean that sincerely. You began with the story that everybody asked you this question. Why did you do it? What did you learn? I'm going to ask that of you today. Tell us.   Ken: In the 7 years, I get 2 questions all the time. One is, do you miss practice? The answer is, there are things about practice that I miss very deeply and that is really the engagement that you get with patients and families. I think we always have to remember as caregivers, we're privileged to be able to do what we do. On the other hand is, but I do get an opportunity to participate in decisions now that rather than affect one patient at a time, for better or for worse, affect hundreds of thousands of patients at a time.     The other question is, what surprised you? What have you learned? What didn't you know about industry? As I thought about it, it's 2 things. It's one that I think in retrospect I was and I think many of us are way too cynical about the motivations of industry, how industry operates. The other shock, if you will, was that it goes 2 ways and there's a lot of cynicism in industry about physician motivations and how physicians operate on a day to day basis.   Carolyn: Really? Do you have any examples of that?   Ken: I'll give you a couple of examples. First, from the point of view of how does industry work and what are the motivations in industry. One of the first decisions that I had to make 7 years ago after joining the company was to issue a recall on one of our products. It actually was a recall that had not yet failed in the field but we had some bench testing that suggested that there was a particular risk to some patients and novel to the industry and the whole thing. This is not go over well with the CEO, but in fact, really the only question people ask is, is this the right decision for patients? That was a really gratifying piece of education to me.     The flip side of the coin, we did introduce a new battery technology in our fibrillators and CRT devices just before I joined the company that basically doubled the amount of battery capacity that we have in the devices. It's one of the funny things. There are still editorials being written in journals other than circulation, I'll say, that still say that industry will never increase battery longevity of their devices but cost us money because we lose money on device replacements. We've done it and a lot of our competitors are in the process of doing it.     When I got to the company, what I found is there was a tremendous amount of angst within the leadership of the company. Do doctors do this or are they afraid in a fee-for-service environment to give up what they get doing battery replacements on short-lived devices. Of course that cynicism is unfounded. That doctors have embraced longer, better battery life technology.   Joe: Ken, to hear you say this is interesting and frankly inspiring. You can't pick up a copy of the New York Times right now and not read about some issue around drug pricing and some of the companies that have done the wrong thing with. They've increased prices hundreds of percentage, 400%, even more. To know from your perspective that those are perhaps the exceptional circumstances and that there are many, many companies who of course have to keep a business running but at the same time they truly have the patient at heart. You have said and you said in your piece that as the Chief Medical Officer, you're the voice of the patient at your organization.   Ken: I aim to be. That was the lesson I learned from Don Baim who really ... Don passed away very shortly after I joined the company, who's really a giant in cardiology. I wish that I had been able to spend more time with him as a mentor but that was very important statement he made. Say he's right, there are bad actors, there are bad actors in industry, there are bad actors among physicians, there are bad actors among academics, but that's not generally true. I also want to be careful not to be misconstrued. Skepticism and doubt are important. Cogito ergo sum, it's not just I think, therefore I am, it's probably better understood that I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am. Skepticism is fundamental to scientific process, but there's this border that you cross over where constructive skepticism turns into destructive cynicism. I'm afraid gets in the way of our ability to work together to better the outcomes, better welfare of patients.   Carolyn: Do you think we've swung from the United States maybe you could give me your opinion to the wrong end of that balance between constructive skepticism and destructive cynicism? Joe, what do you think?   Joe: As someone who has not worked in my own research closely with industry, sometimes I think that we have. I mean, there are certainly many examples. We all know where people have crossed the line and that is profoundly unacceptable, but at the same time, I worry that we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater and some of the things that are uniquely done in academia and some of the things that are uniquely done in industry, a synergy between them across the divide is essential to move this field forward. I think sometimes the boundaries and the bright lines separating them are so distinct and defined that it prevents those source of synergies.   Carolyn: Thank you for that paper that really provides that balanced perspective. The beautiful thing, it's just so personal almost. It feels like we're sitting with you, having a conversation when we're reading that paper. Like now, it's just been an amazing experience having you on this podcast. Do you have any last messages?   Ken: My last words. I again just want to thank you and thank Joe. Has the pendulum swung too far? Thing about pendulums are that they oscillate and I think what's needed is a willingness to watch out that it doesn't swing too far. Is there cynicism? I'll admit, I was flabbergasted and I still flabbergasted that you allowed me to write this piece but I think the fact that you welcomed the piece from someone in industry within the intent of bringing this out, that is the pendulum not going too far. As long as there are voices, editors, journals who are willing to help us articulate points like this, I think that's at least what keeps us in a reasonable balance.   Joe: As Carolyn said, you brought a uniquely human conversational element to this piece. Not everybody would publish a piece in circulation and acknowledge that you are intimated and embarrassed walking into Don Baim's office. That brought us right into your living room and that was powerful.   Ken: Honestly, I wasn't looking for the job. I was more interviewing them to find out what I can about the company, but I did not want to make an ass of myself in front of them. I felt like I was [pieing 00:19:53] for fellowship. I walked in the door and honestly I'm still standing with my hand on the doorknob and he looks up at me and I have to remember his voice, he had that deep sort of growly voice. He said, "Stein, you have no idea what Chief Medical Officer does, do you?" I'm just thinking, do I try to BS my way out of this or do I just give him the God honest truth and turn around and go back to work. I said, "No, Dr. Baim." I couldn't call him [inaudible 00:20:22] and to the end, I told him, "Dr. Baim," I said, "I had no idea." That's when he said, "Your job is to be the voice of the patient within Boston Scientific." He said after that, "You don't need to know anything about business. We know you don't know anything about business. We've got a lot of MBAs and hopefully they do."   Carolyn: Thank you once again for the paper, for this discussion. Thank you both for being here. For all of you who are listening, thank you for joining us again on Circulation on the Run.    

Monday Deal Review 40 Acre WonderLand Jack Butala: Monday Deal Review 40 Acre WonderLand. Every Single month we give away a property for free. It's super simple to qualify. Two simple steps. Leave us your feedback for this podcast on iTunes and number two, get the free ebook at landacademy.com, you don't even have to read it. Thanks for listening. Jack Butala: Jack Butala with Jill DeWit. Jill DeWit: Hello. Jack Butala: Welcome to this show. Cash Flow from Land. In this episode Jill and I talk about, like every Monday, our Monday Deal Review. In this case it's a 40 acre wonderland. Great show today Jill. Let's take a question before we get into it. Posted by one of our members on successplant.com, our free online community. Jill DeWit: Cool. All right. Joe asked, "Hey everyone. I was thinking about this strategy. Wouldn't it make more sense to target property that has more value and higher sales comps?" Here's his thinking. "This way your spread will hypothetically be larger and you can do this all on an option kind of a deal so you're not really using your own money. Like it? To me it makes more sense to do a few deals like this rather than hundreds of small deals." I know you're going to love this Jack. "Has anyone done this with success? I'd like to hop on a Skype call to further discuss with anyone." I sent Joe a little note so he knows we're discussing it here. You know what's funny? I sent Joe a little note and he already wrote me back saying "Yay great I can't wait to hear it." Hi Joe. I know you're listening. Jack Butala: Awesome question Joe. The answer's yes. Today's topic is Monday Deal Review. Wouldn't that be funny? Wouldn't that be awesome if I could shut up and do the show properly? Jill DeWit: Has anyone ever done it? Yep. Sure have. Okay. Moving on. Poor Joe's like what, what, what? Wait. Jack Butala: Hey. Kudos man. You're thinking out of the box and that's what this whole program, our Cash Flow from Land program and this whole membership deal is all about teaching you how to think, leading you to the water, showing you how to drink, and then walking away so you can do it forever. Yes. The answer's yes. Jill DeWit: Drink forever. I drink heavily. Jack Butala: To directly answer your questions, you have to ask yourself which situation you're in. If you have $500 allocated for this whole business model, that's fine. Spend 500 bucks, double it, 1,000, double it, 2,000, 4,000, 8,000, 16,000. If you have a rich Uncle Skeleton, that's the name of a band when I was growing up. Rich Uncle Skeleton. Jill DeWit: Cool. Jack Butala: Like a rockabilly band. Anyway. If you have a rich Uncle Skeleton and he's allocating 17 million bucks for acquisitions, then your way's better. In fact I would even suggest that you move straight into something extremely large like ranches or apartment buildings. If you're like the rest of us who are somewhere in between, you do both. It's all about, for me, putting a machine in place and then throwing a bunch of products in there that make a lot of money. We have a ton of members who, Seth Williams is like this, a ton of members who their whole goal is to do one deal a month and make 10,000 bucks. Frankly that's what Jill and I do with houses, not with land. At the end of the year, we do it a lot more often than once a month, but at the end of the year if you do one deal a month and you just got a regular job and you're working on the weekends doing this stuff, you're going to make 120,000 bucks on the side. Not working a lot of hours. Yes it does make sense. It sounds like to me this makes sense to you so I would recommend it. We have a member who buys canal lots in Florida in a $3-400,000 retail value. Just for the lots, not anything built on it. He buys them for 200 and sells them for three. Makes $100,000 a deal. He sells medical devices, that's his real job. He's killing it. He bought our program and his whole concept was this.

Monday Deal Review 40 Acre WonderLand Jack Butala: Monday Deal Review 40 Acre WonderLand. Every Single month we give away a property for free. It's super simple to qualify. Two simple steps. Leave us your feedback for this podcast on iTunes and number two, get the free ebook at landacademy.com, you don't even have to read it. Thanks for listening. Jack Butala: Jack Butala with Jill DeWit. Jill DeWit: Hello. Jack Butala: Welcome to this show. Cash Flow from Land. In this episode Jill and I talk about, like every Monday, our Monday Deal Review. In this case it's a 40 acre wonderland. Great show today Jill. Let's take a question before we get into it. Posted by one of our members on successplant.com, our free online community. Jill DeWit: Cool. All right. Joe asked, "Hey everyone. I was thinking about this strategy. Wouldn't it make more sense to target property that has more value and higher sales comps?" Here's his thinking. "This way your spread will hypothetically be larger and you can do this all on an option kind of a deal so you're not really using your own money. Like it? To me it makes more sense to do a few deals like this rather than hundreds of small deals." I know you're going to love this Jack. "Has anyone done this with success? I'd like to hop on a Skype call to further discuss with anyone." I sent Joe a little note so he knows we're discussing it here. You know what's funny? I sent Joe a little note and he already wrote me back saying "Yay great I can't wait to hear it." Hi Joe. I know you're listening. Jack Butala: Awesome question Joe. The answer's yes. Today's topic is Monday Deal Review. Wouldn't that be funny? Wouldn't that be awesome if I could shut up and do the show properly? Jill DeWit: Has anyone ever done it? Yep. Sure have. Okay. Moving on. Poor Joe's like what, what, what? Wait. Jack Butala: Hey. Kudos man. You're thinking out of the box and that's what this whole program, our Cash Flow from Land program and this whole membership deal is all about teaching you how to think, leading you to the water, showing you how to drink, and then walking away so you can do it forever. Yes. The answer's yes. Jill DeWit: Drink forever. I drink heavily. Jack Butala: To directly answer your questions, you have to ask yourself which situation you're in. If you have $500 allocated for this whole business model, that's fine. Spend 500 bucks, double it, 1,000, double it, 2,000, 4,000, 8,000, 16,000. If you have a rich Uncle Skeleton, that's the name of a band when I was growing up. Rich Uncle Skeleton. Jill DeWit: Cool. Jack Butala: Like a rockabilly band. Anyway. If you have a rich Uncle Skeleton and he's allocating 17 million bucks for acquisitions, then your way's better. In fact I would even suggest that you move straight into something extremely large like ranches or apartment buildings. If you're like the rest of us who are somewhere in between, you do both. It's all about, for me, putting a machine in place and then throwing a bunch of products in there that make a lot of money. We have a ton of members who, Seth Williams is like this, a ton of members who their whole goal is to do one deal a month and make 10,000 bucks. Frankly that's what Jill and I do with houses, not with land. At the end of the year, we do it a lot more often than once a month, but at the end of the year if you do one deal a month and you just got a regular job and you're working on the weekends doing this stuff, you're going to make 120,000 bucks on the side. Not working a lot of hours. Yes it does make sense. It sounds like to me this makes sense to you so I would recommend it. We have a member who buys canal lots in Florida in a $3-400,000 retail value. Just for the lots, not anything built on it. He buys them for 200 and sells them for three. Makes $100,000 a deal. He sells medical devices, that's his real job. He's killing it. He bought our program and his whole concept was this.

Carolyn: Welcome to Circulation on the Run. You're weekly podcast summary and backstage pass to the journal. I'm Dr. Carolyn Lam from the National Heart Center in Duke National University of Singapore. I am thrilled to be your host every week. Joining me today to introduce our podcast are two very very special guests. Dr. Joseph Hill from UT Southwestern is editor and chief of Circulation. Hi Joe. Joe: Pleasure to be here, Carolyn. Carolyn: Thanks, and your second guest, Dr Amit Kara is also from UT Southwestern and the associate editor for digital strategies of Circulation. Hi Amit. Amit: Hi, Carolyn. Happy to be here. Carolyn: No Joe and Amit, if you don't mind I'm going to start the ball rolling by sharing my little story of how these podcasts came to be. Now do you guys remember when we first talked about this? All right well I do. Joe: Absolutely. Carolyn: Ha ha because frankly, and I don't know if you know this Joe, it wasn't a very good day for me. I had just landed very early in the morning from a long trip and I was battling jet lag while trying to get a million things done such as unpack, clear my mail, get ready for work. You know, the usual. Of course the thing I needed most was to learn that I also needed to do weekly podcasts for Circulation right. So after our chat I did I suppose what a lot of us do when things seem a little bit overwhelming. I dropped everything and I headed for a run in the gym. But in the gym as always I was trying to multitask as well, so I brought my mobile device for my jog so that I could read my mail at the same time, you know. I can already see the smiles of everyone listening because I know you've done this before. Anyone who's done it will know what a pain it is trying to read while you're bouncing up and down on the treadmill. It was just at this point when I was about to go cross-eyed that the radio in the gym started to play the morning news and the news headlines. I remember thinking to myself, oh wow, how I wish I could have someone read my mail or at least the headlines of the mail to me so that I could get the gist of everything even while I was literally on the run. That's how the Circulation podcast idea came to me and hence it's name, Circulation on the Run. To me it's an audio summary of the headlines of the journal so that you the listener can in 15 minutes get caught up literally on the run or drive or whatever it is you're doing when you'd rather listen than read. Just so you know you haven't missed the big things. But in addition to getting an overview of the issues contents every week, you get main take home messages as a clinician. Because it will be dull to talk to myself every week I will be inviting an author, an editor, of a featured article of particular clinical significance so that we can give you a behind the scenes look of the paper. That is the idea of the Circulation podcast. Joe, how does this fit with your vision of the journal? Joe: Carolyn, I love your story behind the scenes on how this all got started and I really, truly appreciate your energy and leadership here. This is such an important endeavor for where we want to take the journal. In fact, your leadership here illustrates one of the major initiatives that we have started and that is a global footprint of editorial oversight for Circulation. We are afforded an extraordinary privilege here to see the best science as it emerges from all around the world and we want to do everything we can to make sure that the journal meets the needs of the clinicians, the practitioners, and the investigators everywhere in the world. Here you are leading this important initiative from your home base in Singapore. That's exactly what we're looking to foster and develop going forward. Carolyn: Oh Joe thanks so much for that. I really so appreciate this privilege of doing this and it's true that I'm a living example of the journal going global so to speak. I also really like the way you say that with this overwhelming knowledge that we're facing, we do need help to synthesize and synergize that information. Especially in the clinically oriented way. I think you made that very clear to us in your leadership of our editorial board. Thanks for that. Maybe speaking of trying to reach the world, social media and digital strategies play a big roll. Amit maybe you could tell us a little bit more about how the podcasts fit in your larger scheme for the journal. Amit: Absolutely and I just want to echo Joe's comments and thank you, Carolyn, for taking the lead of this important endeavor. We couldn't think of a better person to do so. When we look digital strategies we have to remember that the journal is producing so much valuable content. The authors are working very hard and creating such an immense amount of new knowledge. We have to appreciate that people consume knowledge in different ways. In the current era there's so many different ways to do that. One hand we still have the traditional print journal which is incredibly valuable and important. Has depth of information that certainly many and most people would want to investigate. But the other end of the spectrum we have our bite sized information which is Twitter and Facebook and so forth which certainly helps people sort of prioritize or are able to glean what's exciting that week and then they can go back and do a deeper dive. The podcast fits somewhere in between. I love what you said, Circulation on the Run, you're example was a great one for people who are wanting to consume this information but perhaps in a different way. The audio component and also a time component where they have 10 to 15 minutes to take in this information. Your vision for this is a great one. We'll have a brief component where you will review the weekly articles and people can then learn what's in the journal and what's the most important findings and content that week. Similarly they have the opportunity to really get to know an author and get to know some editors and to really get behind the scenes. This backstage pass if you will. We finally have to remember that we're appealing to a broad audience. People of different ages and around the world. People like to consume information in different ways. We really like to have this as an important part of our offering towards helping people consume this information. Carolyn: Oh Amit. I couldn't have said it better. Thank you so much. Just to be true to ethos. Let me remind everyone that it's going to be a 15 minute podcast and we're going to do our very best to compress all that you need to know into those 15 minutes. I just want to echo what you said that this is only part of the broader strategy and it doesn't mean that the print journal is dead in any way. In fact I am so excited to see the new journal. I don't know about you. It's got a whole new look. It is really really quite good looking, if I might say so. Everyone out there, you're going to expect this new journal on June 29th, 2016. Look out for it. Trust me. You won't be disappointed because there's also a very special little part of the cover that I'd like to discuss before we sign off. That is the doodle. Joe could you tell us a little bit more about the doodle? Joe: As you say the journal look I think is fantastic. It has a clean and modern look to it. The judicious use of color to highlight the different types of content, which as before spans a spectrum of basic science, the definition going forward is vertebrate models, pre clinical models, and disease oriented questions. Starting there, traversing through clinical science, population sciences, health services research, the entire spectrum. Again we are afforded an extraordinary privilege here to help frankly shape the future of cardiovascular medicine. We take that responsibility very seriously. That's why we've recruited an extraordinary team of editors from literally around the world. At the same time, we want to have a little fun. We want to make it fun and engaging as well as very very serious. As part of that, we've launched something that we're calling the Circulation Doodle. That is an idea that leverages the google.com website where I think everyone is familiar with. They, based on an event that occurred that day or week or month, they play around with the visual depiction of the word Google. We're going to do the same thing with Circulation. Every month we will reach out and solicit doodles from artists all around the world. Everyone who's listening to this podcast, I encourage you to think about this. Every month there will be a doodle theme. The first one for July will be Texas. Commemorating the fact that the journal headquarters is moving back to Texas after having been in Boston for 12 years. Previous to that it was under the leadership of Jim Willerson. It's coming back to Texas and the first Circulation doodle depicts a Texas theme. In fact, if you're interested you can find this in the April 25th issue of the journal where in the third of four notes from the incoming editor in that third one on April 25th, we show the first doodle. We're asking people to submit doodles according to monthly themes. The month of August will be vacation. I can tell you start thinking about ways in which you might incorporate a vacation theme in the depiction of the world Circulation for August and the one that comes in that's the best, that the editors like the most, it will be placed on the cover of the print journal and on the website for a full month. We've also conceived themes for the rest of the year all the way through to June of 2017, and in the first issue that comes out from our team, we will list those themes and you'll have plenty of time to start thinking about what you would like to submit. Then in subsequent years, those monthly themes will also evolve. We'd like to get people's ideas about issues that come up related to holidays or national heritage months. Things that we might not know about from our base in the US. We want to do that around the world. It's an opportunity to be creative at the level of themes, and again artistic depiction of the word circulation. Carolyn: I love that. Thank you so much Joe and that just exemplifies that we are all about science and all about having fun at the same time. That was a brilliant introduction to what our podcasts are going to be like as well. Thank you so much Joe and Amit for joining me today. Again, everyone, this was Circulation on the Run. Don't forget, first issue coming out 29th June, 2016.

Episode 75: . . 0:00 Intro. 0:30 Hi Joe!. 2:30 Rundown. 3:28 Interview: Matt Arey (winning, the coolest bite ever, Beaver Lake patter and more). 27:30 Walmart FLW Tour at Beaver Lake wrap. 28:55 Geeking out about Sunday at Beaver Lake. 33:30 Dramatic finishes on Tour. 36:40 Wesley Strader for AOY?. 40:40 Does Zack Birge have the ROY locked up?. 43:28 Adrian Avena overcomes. 45:58 DQs. 51:30 Fantasy Fishing picks for Lake Eufaula. 1:00:56 Rayovac FLW Series on Texoma preview. 1:07:12 College Fishing on Guntersville preview . 1:10:58 BFL Weekly Update . 1:16:16 Jason Lambert detour . 1:21:56 Circuit Breaker? . 1:22:50 4K?. 1:24:10 Outro

Short Free Drinks, Bike Gallery Challenge, AARON DURAN, Bug Bites Extraordinary, Mystery Texts, Hi Joe, Time Travel, The Conjuring, Ball Talk, Free Money, Jeter Song, World Of Crazy, Sharknado Big Screen, Bad Bible Camp, Bugs, Flash Gordon

Hi Joe and Kelly on the podcast! Joe did stand up! GO WATCH! Josh Grobin sings the tweets of Kanye West Penny sent us stuff! Check out German Chessboxing Championship story and video and her friend Roy’s Christmas songs! Marshall left us a voicemail! Hi Marshall! John Swartzwelder writes funny books! Go to Goodreads and … Continue reading »