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2 episodes with shawn you
2 episodes with shawn you
2 episodes with shawn you
Riding Shotgun With Charlie #214 News2A Shawn Abramson & Grant Kielczewski Last year, I filmed a show with Shawn and Grant from News2A. Due to camera issues, we decided to scrap it and do it another time. That time was in Knoxville, Tenn, at the Gun Owners of America's G.O.A.L.s event. Since we first tried this, Grant up and moved from New Jersey to middle Tennessee, so this was the ideal time to make it happen again. Shawn grew up in a mostly non-gun house, but he and his brother took any chance they could to go out and shoot with their father's friends. At 18, getting an FID and joining the NRA was on the top of the things he wanted to do as an adult. For Grant growing up in the Midwest, guns were just tools. Also buying his first gun at 18, he spent years just being a casual shooter. In the last five years, things changed for him. He's been more active in taking courses and in helping others get started on their gun owning path. He's been working more towards becoming a better instructor. Shawn and Grant were both New Jersey guys with an idea to start a website with a focus on the Garden State. News2A (N2A) was launched after the Bruen decision in June 2022. New Jersey finally caved, kicking and screaming, to allow their peasants to have pitchforks. And allow them to carry their pitchforks. For a while, it was a hotbed of overreaching government having a post-Bruen hissy fit. There were lots of things going on. The gents thought there needed to be a place where people could get the up to date and correct info on the goings on. We spend some time talking about the differences between states like, New Jersey & Massachusetts, versus other states, like Florida & Tennessee. It is bad in Jersey. You cannot carry in sensitive places so you have to disarm in your car and do a lot of administrative loading and unloading. Post Bruen, New York and New Jersey really tried tamping down the rights and abilities of gun owners. When the guys started getting more involved, they went to Trenton to watch the testimonies and see how the sausage is made. And it ain't pretty. None of the things we may have been taught in school, or from Schoolhouse Rock, really happens like that. It was an education and eye opening for them. At one point, John Petrolino, RSWC #093, reached out to me and asked if I wanted to do some writing. He said that N2A was looking for writers and contributors for their website. He said I could send things to him to edit, then I could pass it along to N2A. In the meantime, he wrote to Shawn and Grant, saying that maybe they could publish some of my writings there. It's been a great outlet for me as a writer. I was able to cover the nonsense of the Gun Law Listening Tour in early 2023. The website is chock full of writers. Covering topics of politics, gun rights, training, editorials. They've got about eight writers plus Shawn and Grant contributing to the site. Some I've had on the show and some still need to get in the stagecoach. They also have sections on the site that are great resources for Jersey residents, where you can carry, how to carry, how to apply for everyone. And, of course, safety tips, too. Let me tell you, the gun folks from Jersey have aggravation in their blood about their process, licensing scheme, and the nonsense they have to deal with. There's only a handful of states that the Bruen decision really affected. These states are the most egregious about doing their best to make sure that lawful and responsible citizens have a hard time with owning, possessing, and carrying firearms. Fortunately, they've got Shawn and Grant putting in time, love, and money in keeping everyone informed and on top of the situation. Favorite quotes: Shawn: “You meet the right people, too. They have the right values. They're just friendly people willing to help others in general.” Shawn: “They only care about making sure their party's agenda happens.” Grant:”We've tried to take this very complex information and make it as applicable to people as possible.” Grant: “I know people underestimate the value of training.” News2A Website https://www.news2a.com/ News2A Twitter/X https://twitter.com/News2ATeam News2A Facebook https://www.facebook.com/news2a/ News2A Gab https://gab.com/News2A US Law Shield (Code:NEWS2A) https://www.uslawshield.com/?affid=ad008c31-331d-11ef-bda8-0615552639c3 Second Amendment Foundation https://secure.anedot.com/saf/donate?sc=RidingShotgun Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms https://www.ccrkba.org/ Please support the Riding Shotgun With Charlie sponsors and supporters. Dennis McCurdy Author, Speaker, Firewalker http://www.find-away.com/ Self Defense Radio Network http://sdrn.us/ Buy a Powertac Flashlight, use RSWC as the discount code and save 15% www.powertac.com/RSWC SABRE Red Pepper Spray https://lddy.no/1iq1n Or listen on: iTunes/Apple podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/riding-shotgun-with-charlie/id1275691565
Hello hello and welcome back to The Goddess Complex with Ashley Michelle! Today Ashley is joined by Shawn Engel, owner of Witchy Wisdoms! Shawn is a somatic shadow work expert, professional witch, and published author. She has been featured in multiple publications including Cosmopolitan, Forbes, and Time Out New York, and most recently authored Mushroom Magick via Union Square & Co publishing. Ashley and Shawn get deep into it today so pop in those headphones, grab a drink and a snack, sit back and listen!Connect with Shawn: You can find her and tens of thousands of her followers @witchywisdoms on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, and YouTube. Witchywisdoms.com----Join the Siren Waitlist now to be the first to know when it reopens! You don't wanna miss this! Click here.Take the quiz for a witch on a weightloss journey!Book a Witchy Weightloss Clarity CallGet on the email listBook a Soul SessionBook a Clarity CallFind me on InstagramFind me on TikTok Get a video from me!
Shawn and James discuss the idea of living churches, comparing to the church of Sardis found in the Book of Revelation. Of course, James had to make a science lesson out of it! So, we drew parallels between the definition of physical life that biologists use and the definition of spiritual life that the Bible uses. We wrapped it up with an answer from Shawn: You—on your own!—can infuse life into your church. Are you up to the task? We're looking forward to your feedback. What did we miss or get wrong? What is your experience? Send us an email. Email: lookingoverlife@gmail.com Website: lookingoverlife.com Patreon: patreon.com/lookingoverlife DART mission DART impact video Chelyabinsk meteorite Scott Manley video about DART mission Tunguska event Church Planting Movements by David Garrison
INTRODUCTION: Shawn Murphy is the host of the Above The Bar podcast and a fellow military veteran. Join us as we discuss military issues, what it's like being a latchkey kid, growing up with a drug dealing dad and my new psychedelic journey!!! INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): · Military Matters – Burn Pits & Legislation· Cannabis In Massachusetts · My New Drug Journey - #Psychedelics · Why Trauma Is The Real Gateway Drug· Having A Drug Dealing Dad· Relationships/Divorce In The Military· Can We Be Addicted To Marriage?· Latchkey Kid Issues· Military Recruiter Tea· Gay Marine Stories!!! CONNECT WITH SHAWN: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/theabovethebarpodcast/YouTube: https://bit.ly/3QCmg05Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theabovethebarpodcast/Instagram: https://bit.ly/3LglTr1TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theabovethebarpodcastTwitter: https://bit.ly/3qzq5ssTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/theabovethebarpodcastPodBean: https://theabovethebarpodcast.podbean.com CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: · Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs · OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o https://overviewbible.como https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible · Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ · Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com · Upwork: https://www.upwork.com· FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS · Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org· American Legion: https://www.legion.org· What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: · PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Shawn Murphy is the host of the above the bar podcast, and a fellow military veteran of mine. Join us today. As we discuss military issues, what it's like being a latchkey kid, what it's like growing up with a drug dealing data in my personal news psychedelic journey. Y'all they tuned listen close, and I hope you enjoy the fuck out of this episode.God bless [00:01:00] you.Hello everyone. And welcome to the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. Yes, he is up there. He is looking over me. He's looking over Sean. He is looking over all of you. Beautiful fuckers. And yes, Jesus told me to call you all fuckers today because he is super open minded and super and super loving and words like that.Simply don't offend him. Sean, how are you? Shawn: Wonderful there. Good, sir. How are you? De'Vannon: Fan fucking y'all Sean Murphy is the AU shit. The author is the host. Oh, bring us that book. I'm ready to say author, man, bring that book. It's Shawn: it's in the works. It's in the works. We gotta make it happen. He De'Vannon: is the host of the above the bar podcast where every week they belly up to the bar and talk about all kinds of shit.And I was on his show. And now we're doing the flip fuck thing that we often do [00:02:00] in the podcast industry. He did mean I'm gonna do him. You all this make me a bottom. Shawn: Does this make me a bottom, a De'Vannon: podcast bottom in this moment? Yes. And I prefer a nice dry fuck. I might spit on your whole little bit. Other than that I'll LA natural brow baby.Shawn: I'll try, I guess, you know, as having my own show, I'll try not to be too much of a power bottom. I guess. That's what that would make me right. If I have my own show and I'm on the other side, does that, what that makes me. De'Vannon: Let's abandon all these titles. Just do what the fuck says.Shawn: oh brother. It is good to see you, man. You're looking De'Vannon: good. You're looking gorgeous. I got my beard growing out. Cause my stylist is gonna turn in a weird ass color. As I approach 40 years old in December. I want to be sure that I get weirder and weirder as I get older and older. And and so yeah, y'all Sean, you know, and I love your beer too.We're compliment complimenting each other's you were before we got on the [00:03:00] broadcast, Sean is a military veteran. I'm a military veteran. And so show we're gonna be talking about his podcast, his military experience, and is gonna get dark is gonna get dim, but I will end it with a Ray of hope and light for our veterans out there.And so we need veterans, all of your motherfuckers out there. Couldn't run around. Doing the bullshit. You like to do fucking your brains out, doing all your drugs, you know, making all the money, raising all the children and everything. And I love all of those things, but without a military in place, crazy as dictators would come over here and snatch your shit from you in a minute, you know?And then the people who those crazy as dictators have sent into the country to spy and shed. And yeah, I mean, that's just the way the world works. We have spies in other countries, no reason for us to think that they don't have spies here. Right. But the military helps to keep all of that shit at ban from spiraling out of hand.So as two veterans, [00:04:00] we above all people have the right to comment on veterans' issues, more so than crazy as Republicans do. And anybody who dares to think that they're speaking on behalf of us, because usually I don't agree with what politicians say about veterans. And so, so we're gonna talk a lot about veterans in this episode.So I see the way you're nodding and then light in your eyes. So tell me what Tim was on your mind. Just let those thoughts out. Shawn: No, it, well, you know, it's funny when you bring that up, it, they suck on both sides of the fence. Yeah. They, they really do because you know, it's funny growing up in the timeframe that I grew up in the military, not I joined in 94.We were, it it's so funny. We were always told you vote Republican, that they they're gonna fund you. They're gonna give you money. They're gonna take care of you. Do you know who gave me my most pay raises in all my 20 years, who gave me the most pay raises De'Vannon: bill Shawn: Clinton, [00:05:00] bill Clinton in the Clinton administration.They're 50 50 in my book, cuz. Were the ones that realized a lot of guys were getting outta the service and taking better paying jobs than staying in because there was no money there in 94, I made less than a thousand dollars a month in the Marine Corps. Ooh. That was the DOD across the board. E one was less than a thousand dollars a month.And you still had taxes taken out of that. Yeah. Look at that. That's a sour face, like, and that's the facts, but I will also say on the flip side, he also created the bra base relocation closure act that closed down all those bases and shut down small towns that lived and thrived off those bases that existed.So I'm 50 50 on that guy, but it's funny. They both suck, you know, look at what just happened with the burn pit bill, like, and for, for those that don't know what the burn pit bill was, that's burning medical waste plastics, and anything else you could imagine and [00:06:00] service members having to do it without proper ventilation without respirators and getting sick.And these guys, the Republicans voted it down because they wanted to show the Democrats that they didn't like some other bill. And they were like, ha, ha look what we'll do. Like really like you did that. You bunch of SC holes. So that's my feelings on all of them. De'Vannon: Right. And so, so Senate Manor, majority leader, Chuck Schumer pulled like a Ropa dope on the Republicans and was able to get like a lot of the reconciliation infrastructure, climate change stuff passed through.And the Republicans felt tricked, you know, Biden and everything like that. I, I kind of felt tricked by it in a positive way because Democrats usually don't act like they have nuts and so I was like, wait, you actually. Back at the Republicans [00:07:00] one. And so, but they were real, but hurt over that shit and yeah, they did oh yeah.Cause it never happened. They're like the, the Republicans are like the bully who was used to getting their way. They're not used to anybody actually hitting them back. Or, and so the burn pit bill is something that Republicans kept pushing against why we don't know, but you know, and they were all pissy about it, but you know, it finally passed and everything like that.And so I, I just, since you mentioned bill, bill Clinton, BC, my homeboy, I Kansas bill. I love the fat art, Kansas bill. And there's a whole, like, what is it? A bill Clinton museum and shit. When I was in little rock or something. Well, Shawn: that's right. I forgot you did live in little rock. I, no, I didn't live De'Vannon: there.I just visited it, just friends. But there's like a whole museum in his honor. They love them. Some bill Clinton, they don't care how he got his Dick sucked and the Al office. And I, I commend him for playing the saxophone, smoking his weed. If he [00:08:00] did smoke weed, I just picture it with, he just didn't hell he didn't inhale getting his Dick sucked.I don't know what kind of marriage arrangement him and Hillary had. I commend her on keeping her shit classing and together, no matter what, I love me. Some bill Clinton, anybody who gonna get they knob swabbed in the oval office, which I would imagine every president has. Otherwise I fuck with you. Shawn: I mean, that's one of those weird ones where everybody was up in arms about it, but were you up in arms about Kennedy?Like, like let's, let's understand that the JFK. Was an old, was an old school pimp and he made that happen. Like let's not get that twisted like that. Don't he was there. I mean, so why do but he changed, you know, what, he changed an outlook of an entire generation towards those things. When he said I didn't have relations with that, with that woman.And everybody was like, see, do get in little head that [00:09:00] ain't relations. That ain't, that ain't nothing that ain't nothing. And it was like, yeah, go ahead and tell your old lady that see how that works out for you. De'Vannon: It wasn't me. mm-hmm what the camera say. And like the song, it wasn't me. Right? Shaggy. I think that was, he Shawn: was a Marine.Did you know he was a Marine? Nah. Yep. Shaggy was a, an artillery was in second battalion. Oh God can't think of what company, but he was, he was second battalion two 10. Two. Yeah. Second Italian 10th Marine regiment out of Jacksonville, North Carolina. He was an artillery Marine and I knew a guy.One of those knew a guy who knew a guy's situations, but knew somebody who knew him. And they said he used to go home every weekend to go do shows. Cuz that was, he wanted to have a music career, but he was an artillery Marine De'Vannon: that's dedication there. Now he's even that much more sex now that I know [00:10:00]he's a Marine I love it brother.So, so your show, the above the bar podcast. Why did you name the that? Shawn: Well, cuz all my equipment truly sits above my bar right now is you and I are talking all my equipment and is sitting above my bar. I have a bar in my home, but the other side to it is, is, is there's. I like double and undress the O the other side to it is the term keeping things above the bar, keeping things, real, keeping things legit.So I always enjoyed when I talked to people, hearing the real stories of their lives or their background, like you and I, when we talked, when you were on my show, you kept it real. There was, you know, there was real energy in that real advice, real things that had happened in your life. And you didn't sugarcoat 'em, you didn't weigh 'em down with, you know, blaming other people or blaming other.You were real about all of it. And that's what I love. So that's why it's the above the bar podcast. [00:11:00] All right. De'Vannon: Now, thank you for all those compliments and everything. I'm glad you appreciate the my direct tone. I'll say it like that. And so How long have you been doing Shawn: it? So we, we started this in June of last year.It was one of those situations where my, I had said many times I wanted to do it. I had been on some friends podcast that were very successful. We're on a network called the earplug podcast network. That's owned by a friend of mine, herb and been on his shows a bunch of times. And I kept saying I was gonna do it.I was gonna do it. My wife finally said on father's day, weekend of last year, she just turned around and she handed me all the equipment. And it was like, there you go. And it was actually might actually now think about it. It might have been father's day 20, 20 God time has flown. Cause we just finished [00:12:00] episode 1 36 or 1 37.Got another one tomorrow cuz today is Tuesday, right? Yeah. Today's Tuesday. So we got another one coming up, so just. Once it got going, it just kind of, it's had a life of its own. Hmm. De'Vannon: Well, I'm happy you found something that, that you love and oh my God, excuse me. I took my ass out in the backyard, my weed eater, call myself cutting fucking grass and shit like that because I just thought it was hideous. This is something I pay other people to do, particularly my parents this cause my, this is my parents doesn't mean that I'm gonna like have them work for free, you know, I still pay them, but I shouldn't do that.Cuz I had really sensitive allergies and I went out there and did it. I didn't put a mask on. So I've got the scratchy ass throat. It's like a whole thing. It's not the COVID I've never had COVID but I've been taking the test every day [00:13:00] just to be sure. And it's still negative. So it was just allergy. So hopefully I don't cough too fucking much.So who do you think your target audience is? So Shawn: I actually, do you know, what do you know about creating your audience avatar? Have you ever heard that term? De'Vannon: I think I've heard the term, but just tell us, Shawn: so, so I have a real good, good friend of mine, Jessica Gruber, she builds podcast or builds websites.And she has her own podcast also. And Jessica and I were talking and she said that to me, one day, she goes, who's your avatar? And I'm like, I, what? Like I'm thinking video game avatar or something like that. So she explained it to me and said, sent me some stuff, basically. It's. Kind of creating the image of what your target audience looks like and giving them a name that way when you're marketing yourself, you can actually say, well, would Steve, or would Jane listen to this [00:14:00] or that?So I've kind of figured it out that my target audience is probably late thirties at the youngest. I would say maybe mid up through unknown finished age, probably closer to mid forties. Not necessarily would they have a bachelor's degree, but they're educated in what they do. They're professionals, they like food, they like drink and they, like, they probably will be caught watching the history channel or some, or like documentaries or things of that nature they like to learn.Yeah, I would De'Vannon: imagine. And that's a beautiful avatar. I would imagine most people who bother to click on a podcast. Are trying to be enlightened on some level, I suppose, even an entertainment podcast and stuff like that. Even if it's finding out that, you know, ASRA Miller this Cod a felony for [00:15:00]being a little club to, you know, you know, you're still being enlightened.You're learning something you didn't know before. And I am not throwing shade at your Miller. They are very beautiful specimen of a human and baby. They can come and steal for me any day. I need, I need them to come steal my virginity all over again. That's what all over . That's what I need that beautiful, that beautiful thing to come and steal, baby.You didn't have to do all that. You could have come taken all that stress out right over here. so, and what do you, what are you drinking? Is that like a bourbon, a scar? Uh, So, Shawn: so I was drinking a little bit of so one of our former guests they have a. Distillery up here in the upstate New York area called new Scotland spirit.So I'm having a little bit there straight rye whiskey which is actually, I learned this from the, these guys, rye is a New York grain. So I didn't know that. So [00:16:00] all the times of hearing about rye whiskey, I learned from them. So they make what they call an empire rye. So it's mostly New York rye grain, and it's phenomenal.I love it. De'Vannon: Hmm. Well drink up. So as you were going over some of your target, I mean, you know, your kind of the breakdown of your show, I had to say, I agree. I feel like the information that you cover is very practical. Like some of the titles I wrote a few down like what is networking, how to build a website, how to start a music label.You know, it's like, you're trying to help people and to give them like steps and practical things that they can use. So I would not classify your podcast as an entertainment podcast. This is a very like lifestyle podcast. And it's like, you're trying to help people be better, like come up out of whatever their circumstance or situation is.It's like, you're trying to help them get knowledge and information that they, that might be out of their grasp. Other one it's. Thank you. And so now one is called cannabis. Oh, you're welcome sugar. Now one is called [00:17:00] cannabis and Massachusetts that I wanted to stop and kind of like meditate on this one here for a moment.These are some of my favorite titles after we get done with this Massachusetts meditation, I'm gonna ask you what your, what you feel like for you your most impactful episode was so you can just chew on that in the background. So this stood out to me because I'm on a new drug journey. And so when you did this episode on the cannabis of Massachusetts, tell me, what did you take from it?Shawn: You, you know, cannabis in Massachusetts is interesting because when, when they created their, their laws, so we have in New York, we have two states next to us that both have legalized marijuana. New York state is decriminalized marijuana, but we don't have any dispensaries other than for medical use.But it's interesting. And I'll tell you why the two states were interesting why the Massachusetts one. So we have Vermont, which is the only state ever [00:18:00] to legalize it through. Their actual, like it wasn't like the governor said, Hey, we're gonna legalize it. They actually voted it. The people voted it and said, we're gonna legalize it.But you and I couldn't go to Vermont and buy cannabis because in Vermont you have to be a Vermont resident with a Vermont driver's license or photo ID to buy there. So they're, they're, they're very cut off from it. But Massachusetts is interesting because what Massachusetts is completely legal, they are, were the first state on the east coast to go completely legal.And you think about that. That's the east coast, the whole east coast. They're the first ones. And they tied their marijuana laws to mirror their open container laws for alcohol, which I thought was genius. From the standpoint of, you know, it's not right to walk down the street with an open beer, you know, that I know that we were brought up that way.You know, you could be that person, but you know that the cops will stop you for an open [00:19:00]container. You've heard that. Okay. So they said, we're gonna do the same thing. If you're smoking a joint, walking down the street, don't walk down the street and smoke a joint. If you wanna sit on your front steps and smoke, go right ahead.But what I really gained from that episode in particular was I didn't realize how deep that, and it's a culture. I didn't realize how deep that culture was and really kind of focusing on that and, and listening to, to my guest and saying like, wow, you know, this really is, and we also came up with a dating show.Did you, did you listen to that one, hear about our dating show that we came up with, De'Vannon: do tell, just acted like I've never heard anything before. Okay. Shawn: Cuz this one, this one was pretty funny. So we're talking about it and everything. And we had come up with, you know, how you, you his name was Jarvis Jarvis and I were talking, he goes.You know, you have like [00:20:00] what's the, the rose ceremonies for the bachelorette and all that. And we decided that we could come up with one for cannabis. And instead of giving out roses, you give out buds and the competitions were gonna be like, rolling. How, you know, how good can your partner be? Like rolling?Are they really a road dog for you? Can they hide your stash? If you needed them? Like we had the entire thing fleshed out and I thought, this is great. And hilarious to talk about. He messaged me the other day. He's like, bro, we need to do this. I'm like what? He goes, no, no, I wanna do. I wanna come up with a show and he was dead serious.Cuz from that culture standpoint for a cannabis culture, they're not represented in those worlds. So it was a representation. I thought how great of an idea. And we. BS and on a podcast to come up with this. So that was, that was really kind of the, the nuts and bolts of that one. And it was just so much fun to talk to him about it.De'Vannon: And when you're [00:21:00] saying it's the culture, are you saying the culture of the cannabis or the culture in Massachusetts and of Shawn: culture? Cannabis culture itself. So, so I never thought of it as a culture, you know, growing up, you know, it was, oh, this dude smokes weed, that dude smokes weed. But you never thought about it from a culture standpoint, but when you talk to somebody that's really into it, or, or maybe from a medical standpoint, it's changed their lives, got them off of opioids or, or heavy medications.And you find out that truly it is a cultural thing.De'Vannon: Okay. That reminds me of how before. Franklin D Roosevelt, I believe it was issued this whole war on drugs, nonsense, how, you know, people were doing a lot of psychedelics and everything, and it was really, you know, you might call 'em hippies of what the fuck ever, but, you know, it was people, [00:22:00] you know, bonding over, you know, a, an experience that everyone was having, but it was very much more like a cultural movement than everything like that.Before everything got shut down. And so it sounds like that culture is coming back. Yeah. I mean, ever really went away, but it, you know, it's coming really more back into the mainstream. And so, which I appreciate. And so this leads me to my. Hm, you know, divulge of more of this new journey that I'm on.And so everyone knows my chaotic history being on and off drugs and stuff like that. Well, I watched two documentaries that sold me on psychedelics and I had never used psychedelics before I used to sell them, but I didn't do 'em. Maybe I did ask it, but I never hallucinated or whatever. But so I watched, what do they called the history of mental illnesses on PBS.Then the other one is called how to change your mind, which is [00:23:00] on Netflix. And so, and they both go over how psychedelics were used for health reasons and in clinics before, before the government made it all evil and the devil. And then in my opinion, the church echoed what the government was saying as they tend to do.And how now it's coming back, I'm particularly excited about these MDMA trials and how they've been used to treat veterans and stuff like that, you know, in the VA hospitals, in places and such. And so I'm actually going to go to Oregon. Next month to do an MDA trial thing. And also I'm going to do a psilocybin trial thing while I'm there really like a whole week, cuz everything's legal there and the therapists, you have a lot of these psilocybin centers and, and shit like that.And, and so, and I'm gonna video it of course. And and I hope that I have a total reaction. I did the IV ketamine thing, which is now legal in [00:24:00] all the states. I did not have a good experience with that because I don't think she gave me enough ketamine. And so fuck her. I'm never going back to that clinic.I'm gonna find me a clinic in a more progressive city where they won't mine upping the dose. But but the ketamine thing I did was only like an hour. The MDMA thing is an eight hour day. The SIL side thing is a separate eight hour day . So it's like a completely different. Shawn: Now, now when you're saying you're doing trials, does this mean that it's under the supervision, medical supervision?Is this pharmaceutical supervision? What do you mean by it's a trial? De'Vannon: No, there would be a licensed clinical social worker with me. It's not like a you know, like a, like an NIH, like a health Institute, sanction trial. Okay. My personal trial under the supervision of a medical person. So I'm not gonna go find homey with some MDMA and then be like, let me just and see what happens.No, like I'm, [00:25:00] I'm gonna be coached through the experience and everything like that. And so I'm super looking forward to it because, you know, I've, I've read and heard where these veterans have had things that I struggle with, like PTSD and OCD, you know, addiction to like drugs and shit like that. And they've been able to find whatever level of relief.And so. Shawn: Now is this gonna be like a microdosing thing? Like, I, I, I have a good buddy who, another vet who did the micro, whose brother is a psychologist, which one's an MD psychologist or psychiatrist, which one's the MD. No, I always get it backwards, whichever one's the MD. And he did the microdosing and was in a real bad funk with depression and all that.And he did microdosing and that was life changing for him. And, and he doesn't do it anymore, but he really, it, it helped to break that depression, but it was all microdosing. It wasn't anything [00:26:00]over the top, you know, he, wasn't watching pink bears fighting purple alligators or nothing crazy like that.But yeah, I mean, this is, I wanna hear about this. De'Vannon: I wanna see some goddamn pink bear fighting purple alligators. I guess, I guess what I wanna know is that I really, really had a true outof body experience. But if, for me, it doesn't require me to see strange things for me to get the healing. Then I'll take the healing, but you know, everyone I saw in these documentaries or going through these convulsions and crying and hollering, and it really worked for them.It, it, you have the fit and then you calm 'em the fuck down. And then it's like, you're healed. So for me, it looks like the, the trauma that would in, went into the person is forced out through the MDM a or the LSD or the Mein or the psilocybin or whatever, because that's the way it is. Trauma goes in. It comes out.And when it does, you might holler and holler or whatever. And so I want to know I've been changed. I wanna know I've been touched. Shawn: Well, I was thinking [00:27:00] about you the other day. I have to tell you this. I was watching a video and, and it wasn't one of those kind of videos. It was a different video. Mm-hmm and The gentleman said, you know, we all wanna say that marijuana is the gateway drug.It's not trauma is the gateway drug. If you really look at why people, you just said it yourself, you've had all these issues that fed, you know, your issues in the church and all these other situations for you that fed for your trauma and the drugs. Trauma is the gateway drug. And it, it was such a powerful statement to hear.And I thought about you brother De'Vannon: Ja. So we'll see how it goes. Thank you so much for thinking of me and I will be as transparent as I can legally be. With, with what I intend to do. And so we will go from there and I wanna do all the things now, you know, all the AKA and everything like that. And so, and let's just [00:28:00] see.So for you, out of all the episodes you've recorded, what, what do you think's been the most impactful one to you? You know, one that when you turn the mic off, you just couldn't stop thinking about it, whether you were disturbed, like in a good way or in a not so great way. Shawn: So it's definitely difficult to say that, you know, pick your favorites, you know, it's like they say, pick your favorite child.So I, I, I don't know that, but I will tell you a lot of my guests have become good acquaintances, people I talk to on a regular basis. People I communicate with on a regular basis, I will say though, that probably the one that as a parent. Shocked me the most and really was like, I, I don't know how I would go with this is gentleman named Jeff OWK Jeff is from, and it's funny enough, cuz he's from about two hours, [00:29:00] three hours, south of me in New York.He's from the peak school area of New York. And if you've ever been to peak skill, it's a fairly quiet area. Nothing really goes on there. Jeff, at age 16 was sent to adult prison for a rape and murder. He did not commit. And every, every story you've ever heard where you go, the police can't do that. The police wouldn't do that.16 years old inter you know, interviewing him without a lawyer, without his parents being aware that he's being taken away playing good cop, bad cop not feeding him. And just giving him at 16 coffee and cigarettes and zipping him up and telling him if he doesn't talk, they're gonna whoop his ass.He's gonna go to jail. His parents will be, you know, be charged because they're, they're hiding him, all [00:30:00] these things, his court appoint lawyer, because his family couldn't afford. It never took the time to follow up on BS, evidence on things that just didn't make sense all the way through. I mean, and there's a documentary it's called conviction.It's done by JIA works. And that's how I met Jeff was I interviewed JIA on her. It's J I a and then w E R T Z. She did this documentary on his life and it's on prime, Amazon prime. And, and it's worth watching. It's called conviction, but just watching that and then talking to him and him and I have become good friends.That made such an impact on me as a parent to think that, you know, he, and the reason they picked him out of it all was cuz he was a quiet kid. He was quiet. So today we would say, oh, that kid might have some me mental health issues, but he [00:31:00] did 16 years in jail finally was released when the person who actually committed the crime DNA evidence tied him to the crime and he goes, oh yeah, I did that.Even though Jeff spent all those years in jail and the best part about it though is Jeff got out, Jeff is now got an Esquire after his name, cuz he is a lawyer. And he actually has his own foundation where he defends people that have been wrongly accused and fights for their freedom. So that was probably of, of everybody that I still talk.You know, I talk about all of them. We could talk about the guy, what is aliens, Jesus and the afterlife have in common. That was the week prior to that. And that was one, one of that was some wild shit, but the one with Jeff DYS is probably one of the most impactful in my, in my life life. Like just thinking about things De'Vannon: well is you're right.And I'm taking [00:32:00] my notes and everything like that. Cuz I have to look up these documentaries and everything like that. That, that is very, very useful. Good Lord. Okay. So speaking of fuck, speaking of fucked up childhoods, we're gonna shift gears from your show and talk more about you personally because the people would just fall in love with you, man.And so, so you came from a single parent home cause your dad was arrested when you were young. Mm-hmm where were you born? Where did this happen? Tell us so, Shawn: so I'm. Was an only child. My mother raised me, really. My mother raised me from age 11 to 18 and my dad, my dad did a one year. I always tell people I've never had any problems admitting this.My dad did a one year clip for possession of illegal firearm, cuz he didn't have enough Coke on him at the time for them to put him in jail for that. And my dad dealt, but we, we came from a good life. You know, we had, we owned a liquor [00:33:00] store with a, with a dance club in it. We owned a bar. We were doing good.And we went from that level to my mom, had to sell it all. We moved into a house that didn't have a refer, didn't have a stove in it. We had to wait till she could save up to buy a stove and we used to joke around and call my mom the microwave mama, cuz she could cook anything in a M. And we did. All right.She had a microwave in electric skillet. My mother made it happen. It's actually her birthday today. She turned 70 today. She's a phenomenal woman and, and she made it happen. But you know, I, I was the original, I was like one of those true latchkey kids. You remember latchkey kids that term mm-hmm . So I was a latchkey kid, you know, I, my mom dropped me off at school and then she didn't get home till sometime around five 30.You know, I Def had to fend for myself, which I should have gotten [00:34:00] so much more trouble. I just didn't get caught I just didn't get caught. But yeah, you know, and on my 17th, 17th birthday, my mother knew that I needed more male influences, you know, positive male influences. So 17th birthday, she actually took me to the recruiter's office July 20th, 1993.I had already taken the Ava, went to the recruiter's office, signed up July 21st. I swore in July 6th of 94, I was standing on yellow footprints and headed all, headed down to Paris Allen, standing on the yellow footprints, and then did that for 20 years. But, but you know, I was I was a wayward soul as a kid.I, but I had uncles that, that stepped in and tried to fill that father role. But my uncle who did most of it, he was only eight years older than me. So think about that. He was eight years older than me trying to tell me stuff. So the, the conversations were, [00:35:00] I would almost say they, they had more value cuz they were more relevant, but sometimes I had a, he was closer to a brother than anything.De'Vannon: Okay. And that's your biological dad? So Shawn: my biological dad he popped back. He was back in my life. I guess he was back in my life when I was about 16 and try, you know, he tried, but it wasn't until after I graduated from boot camp that he really, you know, we were back on seeing eye to eye, cuz we didn't see eye to eye before then, you know, eye was that kid, you know, you, you treated my mom bad.You, this, you that. And it, it was tough on me. So it, but it was wasn't till I graduated from boot camp that we kind of were like, I'm a man, you'll talk to me like one. And we treated each other in a different way. [00:36:00]De'Vannon: Well, that's good. I'm here for some reconciliation. So y'all when he says like, as valve that stands for arm services, vocational aptitude battery test, you gotta take.Before you can scoot off to the military latchkey kid is just like a kid is at home without adult supervision. Just kinda like a key you know? So, so you said you knew your dad was, was dealing this cocaine. Oh yeah. So how old were you when you first became aware that he was dealing the Shawn: drugs? I guess I was probably, well, I guess it was probably right around when my parents divorced at age 11.And even that, like, I still remember that I was asleep in bed, woke up to my mother, waking me up, going, I'm putting your father's stuff in trash bags and putting it outside. And I went okay. And went right back to sleep. It had 0.0 impact on me at that point. That's what you're doing. Okay. Fine. I don't give a shit.He ain't around anyway. [00:37:00] He ain't, he ain't here. And but I was probably about that age, but even before then, like, My dad smoked weed, always did. And, and I knew, like I knew how to put it. I knew what it was, but I didn't know what it was, if that makes sense to say it in that way with different inflection.Like I knew dad's got a stash underneath this couch, it's in this bag. I don't touch it because it's dads didn't know what it did. Didn't know what it meant, but I just knew I didn't touch it. De'Vannon: Okay. I can understand that. I remember watching like an older sibling of mine like I think vomit up cocaine, you know, when I was like, you know, super young and I didn't really know what it was.Maybe I kind of knew it. It's kinda like, it's kind of like a, a foreboding sense of knowing I get that. Mm-hmm so let me be clear. So you had like a biological dad and a stepdad, or are we talking about this person? No, no. So Shawn: I had, I had my [00:38:00] biological father and then I had an uncle who was eight years older than me who really.Was the major male role model and help helped get me through high school and everything. De'Vannon: Okay. Okay. So now you also told me before that you personally were divorced twice and you were married three times. So do you feel like watching what happened with your parents attributed to your situation? Or was it cuz you were in the military or what do you think?Shawn: You know, I, I would say the, the first one was very military. You know, it was that it, and they don't, this is probably one of those things. I think we don't do enough. Good jobs with in the services is dealing with separation anxiety. You know, I was a 17 year old kid when I went to boot camp, turned to 18 in boot camp.Here I am. I'm gonna show up in Jacksonville, North Carolina, I got bills to [00:39:00] pay. I've gotta get myself going. I'm I'm on my own. And the only people that tell me, they love me or care for me are back home. So, but I can't be there every day. So why, if I can get one of those people to come with me and tell me that they love me again, why wouldn't I do it?So that was my first marriage. Good woman have no, no ill things. We've talked years later, we talked afterwards, cuz we were probably married for months. Like we're legally married for a year, but we were only together for a few months after we, we got married and we were high school sweethearts, but I have, we've talked years later and you know, looking back, she was like, oh, I'm sorry, this, that, and the other I'm like, it's fine.I understand. We were kids. I was like, she was 18 and I was 20, you know, we were kids. Like I turned 20 just after we got married and we were kids. [00:40:00] Which shouldn't have ever happened, but it was separation anxiety that caused that. The second one, it was military related stress. I promise you it was a, it takes a special person to be a military spouse.It truly does. You have to be a kind of person who can operate on their own with minimal interaction from the other person and be willing when that other person shows up to allow them to assert whatever force they have in it. But at the same time that service member has to be understand that you're not around all the time.So the rules have already been set. You have to find out what those rules are and let whoever's been leading that charge, tell you what the rules are and it's tough. So I went, I was on recruiting duty at the time. I was probably working 70 plus hours a week, not home getting up at crack of Dawn driving at this time.It was I was. Driving from [00:41:00] Redding, Pennsylvania to ha or horse from Pennsylvania about an hour, hour and a half each way. Every day, because the housing crash happened. We were at one, one, I was in charge of one location. They switched locations. And it was really just that stress finally broke our marriage.So De'Vannon: it's hard to be in a relationship period where you've got two different people who exist in two different worlds. And you're trying to figure out a way to make those collide without destroying each other one another. And so a military relationship, like what saying the chaotic nature of it is something I witnessed when I was an air force recruiter because some of the wives are the, you know, would be military wives.You know, they really couldn't handle it. Like they didn't. You know, he's gonna go to the military, but why should I [00:42:00] leave my mom and my sister, you know, is something the girl might think. And so I really feel like they should do like the military do like coaching and transition training and things like that for the spouses and stuff like that.I'm not overly fond of necessarily the way the military gets people ready to either enlist or to come out of the service. And so I feel like there's more that can be done both going in and coming out, but a lot, lot of, a lot, a lot of, a lot of, a lot of the women really had to come home. And I, and I see women because I really wasn't around a lot of females, you know, was only around guys and they had wives because unfortunately I was entering don't don't tell.And so, oh my gosh. I can only imagine the gay parties they're having in the fucking military now without me. shit. so, so, so wait, so you, you, you mentioned Before that you were always trying to [00:43:00] get married mm-hmm . And that, that sort of statement reminds me of Ernest Hemingway you know, very popular author and everything like that.And I watched documentaries on Ernest Hemingway and you know, he was an alcoholic and some might say a narcissist and a few other things, but there was a thing with him, with Mr. Hemingway, where he was always, always married, you know, he would like meet a woman and be like, I want you to be my wife, you know, while he still had another wife, you know, and then he, you know, she would be getting along, you know, he would, he'd be scooting her along sooner or later.But, you know, when I read that from my notes about you, that you were always trying to get married, it reminded me of Ernest Hemingway. Now you have an Ernest Hemingway is type beard going on right now. And so talk to me about this needed to be married. Shawn: You know, I, I think it, it was that It goes back to that [00:44:00] separation, anxiety being alone.Like I said, I mean, if I look at my, my life, like I said, latchkey kid, I was always by myself unless I went to a friend's house, get into the service. I separate myself from anything that I can consider as a connection and I have to build my own. So why not bring that connection with me? It, it took a lot of years before I could be on my own.And I think I, I attributed for a long time being married with being with someone, if that makes sense, like having someone else in my life, that's how you fill that space, whether it was good or bad. That's how you did it. Are you still De'Vannon: married? IShawn: am. I'm now I've been married to my wife now for five years.Very happy, much more mature relationship too, though. You know, I was much older. When I [00:45:00] got married, we both had careers. We both had lives. We both know how to, we, we can, at this point in my life, I can function differently. I don't need, I love spending time with my wife and doing things with my wife.I enjoy that, but we don't have to be up each other's as to, to feel that. And, and to, to have that trust factor, De'Vannon: right. I say, wait till you're at least 30, you know, all in my twenties, I used to think I knew who I was and I was an adult. It wasn't until I was like in my lower thirties that I really think I solidified who I was so slow down when y'all, there's no need to get married, do all the traveling, do all your experimentations, whatever, and then save all this getting kids and all that for later to darling, there's no need to rush.Shawn: And if you can avoid kids, just avoid it completely. I have so much more money. I love my children, but God, I always think about, that's see, this is something that once you have children, you [00:46:00] think about all the time. Like, God, I love my kids, but man, if I didn't have y'all, do you know how much money I would have?De'Vannon: I'd be paid. Shawn: I think a little S De'Vannon: I'd say I say that about my cats, but you know, they're probably only $30 a Shawn: month. Yeah, no, your cats are good. Like between a bag of food. And if you have like healthcare for them, you know, the cats are good here. There there's no problem with them. I've got two and I love my cats.So you De'Vannon: mentioned like yellow footprints. A couple times when you, what, what is that like when you talk about chipping off to the Marine, what is that? Shawn: So that's the, a very iconic Marine Corps thing. So if you look up yellow footprints, when you step off the bus at Paris island, or if you're from the left coast in San Diego, there are painted on the ground yellow footprints because that's where you have to stand.And they're painted at a 45 degree angle because that's where your feet need to go. So that to start teaching you the position of attention right away. So that's, [00:47:00] so you'll hear Marines, talk about, you know, landing on the yellow footprints or standing on the yellow footprints. De'Vannon: Paris island is the Marine Corps bootcamp.Right? We Shawn: have two. We have. So if you're east of the Mississippi, you go to Paris island. If you're west of the Mississippi, you go to San De'Vannon: Diego. Mm. I would've gone to Sango. Sango does Mississippi river runs right through Baton Rouge where I'm at on the west. Atton Rouge, Shawn: Baton and love Louisiana. I have to tell you that I love Louisiana.I've only been once and I would, I've been once and I would pack my shit up and move. Okay, De'Vannon: well, you can come here and then I'll go to Los Angeles. Shawn: Well, I'm in, well, I'm in all small Albany, New York. So you, you have to come to small Albany if we're gonna swap. De'Vannon: Oh, didn't you mention New York. There is a, a people of color psychedelics collective.That's a lady heads out of New York who I hope to have on my show. What it's like a whole nonprofit. And it's all about like the benefits of psychedelics and shit. [00:48:00] It's like the people of color psychedelic collective. It's like a thing. People Shawn: of color psychedelic, collective , De'Vannon: Yas . And so Shawn: P O S C C De'Vannon: Paska, something like that.But if I can get ahold of her and set it up, I will be flying my black queer ass to New York so I can get high on whatever the shit, whatever. Fuck I can give my hands on. If, Shawn: if you can get her on your show, I expect that you introduce me to her so I can have her on my show cuz I would love, see, that's see that's my show in a nutshell, somebody being like, I got this person, this is what they do.And, and I always tell people, my show should feel like you walked into a bar and you're overhearing somebody else's conversation. And, and if you're the guest that should feel like you walked in the bar and the bartender goes, Hey, you do that drugs in Jesus thing, right? yes, I have a podcast. And that's what it should feel like ad hearing that, oh God, I [00:49:00] would love to talk to her.What's her name there is she now De'Vannon: I've made a note. We'll talk about it. call. What is she call her now? Shawn: oh, De'Vannon: so great. So, so you were in the Marines and I have to say Marines are very sexy. Love the outfits and the uniforms. Was there any sort of scandalous, was there any kind of gay sex that you saw in bootcamp in training?I wanna know some tea, some dirt, some Marine, so Shawn: drama. So nothing that I ever ran into personally, like nobody that ever directly came on me. I'm not, I guess I wasn't that cute. I was, I was five, seven, a hundred twenty seven pounds when I got in. So it had to been into it to, into twinks or something like that to have looked at me that way.But but there was always stories. So for example, I remember in my first command, there was a Marine. I actually remember his name, but I won't say his name who. Ran down to the duty office, which was in the duty office is a Marine who's [00:50:00] in charge of the barracks for that day, making sure that nothing bad happens, reports on it.He ran down to the duty office, but booty naked because his roommate who was a big dude, and this guy was like 5, 1 52. And his roommate was a big dude, was standing at his door when he came out of the shower and basically tried to have his way with him, snatched his towel off of him and everything. And the only reason I remember this is because as I was checking in to our command that day, he was in handcuffs, leaving De'Vannon: who, the skinny guy or Shawn: the big guy, the big guy, the, he was in handcuffs leaving.So, so there was that, but probably the next big, I, next time I heard anything was Let's see what year would've been like 99, 2000 timeframe. It was right around in North Carolina. We had two hurricanes, hurricane Bertha and hurricane Fran. They were back [00:51:00] to back and they did a lot of damage. And so some of us got, you know, this was the only time I ever heard where they were like, go home, stay away from the area.Come back when it's clear. So I had come back and joking around. We had put a sign on one of my buddies trucks that just said he, he didn't know it. They had ziptied this big cardboard sign that said I'm gay. Everybody thought it was funny. He hadn't seen the sign. Ha ha ha. No big deal. All sudden our mass Sergeant comes out and flips on all of us.Get that shit off his truck. You don't know what's going on around here, blah, blah, blah. And we're all like, whoa, mess starting. Why, why are you flipping out on us? So we take it off. We'll come to find out one of the Marines who hadn't come back yet. Had just shown up. To our CO's office walked into the CO's office with a local lawyer and went, we would like him discharged outta the Marine court right now.He's gay and he's concerned [00:52:00] that if it other people within this command find out that he's gonna be physically assaulted and they had him out of the service in a day, at a day, he was gone. So those were two incidences, but I will tell you knowing Marines the way I do, I come from a pretty open household, grew up with an aunt who was gay, never thought nothing of it knew new people who were gay, growing up.Never thought anything of it. It was always just kind of like O okay, do you boo? I don't care. But when I found. Somebody didn't tell me they were gay. And it was somebody I was very close to was another Marine. And I found out after they had gotten out and they told me that I was kind of like, damn bro, why didn't you, why didn't you confront talk to me about this before you'd have been good.And it was because [00:53:00] I acted like a Marine and, and I, and I say that in quotes, that he was concerned that I would, I would see him in a different light. And that really hurt because I was just being a Marine and that rah yet, you know, loud, you know, over, over the top male kind of persona. And that was one of those things that really hurt me.Cause I was like, damn bro. I thought we were good like that. And, and they were like, yeah, man, I couldn't tell you. And I was concerned that you would feel a certain way about me and I didn't want you to know. And I was. I actually yelled at him and was like, Hey motherfucker, why didn't you tell me? And then he told me that and I was like, and that actually hurt my feelings.Cause I was like, man, did I, did I make somebody feel that way than I shouldn't have De'Vannon: it? Wasn't you? It was the environment of the military. You know, he didn't wanna lose his livelihood and he didn't tell you or anyone else, unless it was someone else who was not, who was [00:54:00] clearly queer, but you know, which you don't present that way.And so ain't nobody gonna risk their, you know, their income and everything because they wanna have a, an open conversation with somebody because you never know how those things are gonna go. So I wouldn't take it personally. He was just trying to survive. Well, Shawn: years later, I, I we've talked about it more.He's my closest friend, my best friend, but, but it really was, it was kind of one of those things where I was like, damn bro. Initially it really caught me off guard. Mm-hmm De'Vannon: so as a Marine recruiter, did they tell you to lie? Shawn: No. Nope. And that was always one of those things. Like, I, I always will tell people this, I never lied about it.That was actually the big difference between the Marine Corps from a recruiting standpoint and maybe other services. I don't know, only because we wanted to tell you how bad it sucked. We wanted to tell you how hard it was. We wanted you to know that this was gonna be the like boot camp was gonna be hard.It was gonna be [00:55:00] miserable. It was gonna suck. You're gonna sweat. You're gonna question the fact that you even met me and ever did this. We wanted you to feel like that because that was part of the sell because people wanted people wanna be like, fuck that I could do that shit. You ain't gonna scare me off.I'll make that shit happen. It was part of the sell. De'Vannon: That's some good reverse psychology right there and playing on the male ego. See when I was an air force recruiter. They would try to get me to lie to the recruits about like their career. So like if I had a recruit who wanted to be a weatherman or work in avionics, I would work to get him that job, what the higher ups in the air force would do.And in, in, as soon as I asked you that this, this question, I realized that this, the response would probably vary on who your supervisor was at exactly where you were recruiting at. So so they would do some shit in the air force, [00:56:00] like book the guy in like a security forces, this job to be a police or whatever.And then they'll be like, we're just gonna go ahead and assign him this job. We've disregarded what he wants to do. And we want you to bring him into the office and act like, you know, this is the best job ever sell him on this job, you know? That's the sort of shit that they would try to get me to do in the air force.So that what you're talking about is just a little bit of free decor. Shawn: Yeah. Like we were, so that was our move. Like I kid you not there's, this is a real thing. You would walk in front of a crowd of kids and you would look around and be like, I don't think most of you could do be in the Marine Corps. Here's a little bit about it.If you, the one or, and, and this would be a move, you'd go. The one or two of you that I see in the room and you would look, you would never actually make eye contact with anyone. You would do this be like the one or two of you that are in here that probably could do it. You can come meet me in the back of the room when this is all [00:57:00] over with.And you would get like five or six of 'em, cuz these idiots would be like, I'm, he's talking to me. I know I'm I could do it and you'd stand there. And it, you never looked at anybody, but it was just let me see if I can hype you up enough. And it was a thing. You know, I used to tell kids all the time, you're gonna hate the day you met me within the, the first couple hours that you're at Paris island.You're gonna hate the day you met me. And they'd be like, what? I'm like. Yeah, that shit sucks. De'Vannon: Okay. Bootcamp is a motherfucker. Oh hot, Shawn: hot, like you. I went to bootcamp in July, South Carolina in July. I here's how hot it was. You wanna know how hot it was? De'Vannon: I was in San Antonio in July and August for mine.And so we were clearly in the 100, 1520 degrees. It was Shawn: so hot in South Carolina in July of 94, they used to have a pool outside that [00:58:00] we did our swim calls in. It was an outside swim call. It was so hot. The pool water felt like bath water, and it wasn't heated. That's how hot it was. Think about that.Getting in a pool and being like, I'm gonna get in this pool and cool down. This shit feels like bathwater.De'Vannon: Well, I'm glad you didn't melt. Shawn: Nope. Nope. No, all this sweetness made it through. So do you feel like movies, De'Vannon: like I think like Jarhead a full metal jacket do the Marine, I think that those were like Marine specific mm-hmm if I'm not mistaken, do you feel like they do the Marines? You know, is that really how it is or there's really soap party there.Y'all beating people up at night, you know, you know, Shawn: I know what you're asking, so, so I'll put it like, yes, I think full metal jacket. There's a lot of [00:59:00] legit because of the fact that AR EY who plays the drill instructor was a Marine drill instructor. And I think a lot of it from that era is legit fast forward today.No, nobody's pulling out bars of soap and beating some eye's ass or something like that. Jarhead I think is one of the worst movies ever made bar none. By far the biggest load of bullshit I've ever watched it should be burned and never played again anywhere. It's so bad. The fact that Jamie Fox plays a staff, Sergeant that an E two private first class runs his mouth to him.Like he's a punk at one point in that movie, that's not happening. That's that's not happening. And they talk about if you watch that movie, when the main character, the, of the movie ends and he goes to his buddy's funeral, he's [01:00:00] still in E two. After four years, you will get promoted three months outta bootcamp to E two, six months after that to E three, if you haven't, if you're not again, At least picked up E three and got out.You're a turd, you're a turd of a Marine and you're getting in trouble on a regular basis. And really, I got nothing for you. So I can't stand the, can you tell, I don't like that movie. De'Vannon: a scathing review. Y'all yeah. Shawn: I, I just, I think it's a garbage and a friend of mine read the book another Marine and said the book was really good and he's like, man, don't don't judge the movie.Don't judge the book by the movie. He's like, the book is really good. He really gets into some details of things. I I'll tell you one that I really talk about eye opening things, not to, to switch sides here. There's a book called shadow of the sword that I really wish they would make into a movie. [01:01:00]It's about a Marine who is a, I can't remember if he's a bronze star with a, with a V, which is a pretty high commendation for valor, or he was a Flying across, which is one step below the medal of honor winner.But ver awarded for valor honor went to, went to become a drill instructor and suffered such PTSD that it broke him. But to I have his book, but to read his story, shadow the sword and to hear like I wasn't trying to be a hero. My body took over and just did things because my friends were there and I needed to survive that they needed to survive that.And just the way he explains it in his, the aftermath of, of dealing with things afterwards and, and going through the PTSD like this dude talks about in the book, his [01:02:00] NAB, he was at his in-law's house and the neighbor's dog wouldn't stop barking at him. So he jumped over the fence and started choking the dog to death, like bare hand, choking the dog to death.That's a P you know, people be like, oh, you're an asshole. Or you're psycho. No, that's a PTSD reaction. And if they want, if Hollywood, Hollywood, if you're listening, go get the book shadow of a shadow of the sword and go make that into a movie. Go treat that the way it should be and treat the service members the way we should be treated.We lose 22 vets a day to suicide a day. So about my shows, I interviewed a gentleman who had his own organization called 22, 22 a day. Vet lives matter. He committed suicide and he had an organization. He had people around him. He. De'Vannon: Well, since you mentioned suicide, I had put a note here and I'm so glad to see they were on the same page with, I wanted to talk about veteran suicide.[01:03:00]And I pulled up some statistics from back in 2020, and it said that the army had the highest rate of suicide in 2020, at 36.4 death per 100,000 soldiers. So basically this is 580 total service members who died in 20, 20, 30% were active duty, the Marine Corps at the second highest suicide rate, 33.9 death per 100,000 Marines Shawn: that I'm not surprised by those numbers.I mean, ho ho every day, you know, it's most of us go to work just to get the job done. You would agree with that. You know, the average civilian goes to work just to get the job done. Well. Yeah, they do, but. How about you go to work and every day get told you need to do it better than you did the day prior.You need to, you need to hold yourself at that next step level. There is no doing it easier. And if you try to take the easy way, [01:04:00] you're a skater, you're a slouch, you're a turd, you're everything under the sun. So you must perform at that next step. Do that every day and then come out and be around people who don't understand that mindset, do that every day and for four years, and then come out to a place where you're like, you're right.This fucking has how work. This is how I do things and then turn around and see everybody else not performing at that level. Tell me what that does to your mindset. De'Vannon: For me, it made me narcissistic and arrogant because, because the military told me that, you know, I'm Superman, I'm better than everyone else.This alludes to what I was saying earlier about better training people to exit the military, you know, in bootcamp and throughout military, they prime us to be on this pedestal and they, we can't, you can't function that way in society and PTSD is real. I struggle with it. It's one thing for me to [01:05:00]have a one hour conversation with you, but for me to try to immerse myself in a day to day work environment with people is impossible because I'm constantly judging them.It's the military's voice in my head judging them. It's not really the say for instance, the end of the world in the military. They're always saying if you're 15 minutes, late, 15 minutes, if you're 15 minutes early for an appointment, then you're on time. 14 minutes. You're late, early, you're late in the civilian world.It's actually not a catastrophe if you're running a few minutes late, but goddamn in the military. So, so with people, I have to stop myself. If they're like a minute or five behind from looking at them, like they're the goddamn devil , you know, to this day. And I've been out of the military for almost fucked, you know, going on 20 years, you know, to this day, I'm all like, it's okay if they're two or three minutes late the van.And I have to like talk myself down from wanting to burn them with kerosene and brimstone when they show [01:06:00] up, you know? But we, we judge people irrationally. We judge ourselves, whatever we do, isn't good enough. We beat ourselves up because the military told us whatever we did is never enough. 99.9% on a test is, is terrible.It should have been 100. You know, I have Shawn: to get that one wrong. you De'Vannon: know, how dare you get that one wrong? Well, I mean, Shawn: you, you bring that up. You, you talk about the test that was, you know, you go through your entire life in school. Hey, I got a 60, I passed it still. That's a D get into the military, 80 to 85 is passing.If you get anything below an 80 or an 85, depending upon what, what courses you're taking, you failed. So, I mean, right there, you you're, you're on a different level right away. De'Vannon: And so, you know, learning how to deal with society even all these years later is just like, it's still a thing. And so that's why I'm all for all of these psychedelics, whatever [01:07:00] can help me deal with the O C D and the PT, PT, S D I think every veteran should have a license to do whatever fucking drugs we want and just be done with it.And so. You were I just, so we're just gonna talk about one more thing and then I just have positive advice for the veterans. And so you were in during nine 11 as much as I hate how divided an
In this episode I give a quick recap of my interview with Shawn Harper including: - How he went from riding the bench in Junior College to the NFL- The difference between winning and success and why it matters- The 3 pieces of advice he would give to his 20 year old selfAnd so much more... Shawn is a former NFL offensive lineman who played a total of seven seasons with the Rams, the Oilers, the Colts, and NFL Europe. Since 2004 he has owned and operates American Services and Protection, a multi-million-dollar security services firm headquartered in Columbus, Ohio.His journey from the grit and sweat of the NFL locker room to the corporate culture of the boardroom proved that he could win in both worlds by using many of the same principles and strategies!Click here to connect with Shawn*************************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.
Shawn is a former NFL offensive lineman who played a total of seven seasons with the Rams, the Oilers, the Colts, and NFL Europe. Since 2004 he has owned and operates American Services and Protection, a multi-million-dollar security services firm headquartered in Columbus, Ohio.His journey from the grit and sweat of the NFL locker room to the corporate culture of the boardroom proved that he could win in both worlds by using many of the same principles and strategies!In this episode, we discuss:- How he went from riding the bench in Junior College to the NFL- The difference between winning and success and why it matters- The 3 pieces of advice he would give to his 20 year old selfAnd so much more... Click here to connect with Shawn*************************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.
Search Engine Results Pages (SERP) are the pages displayed by various search engines when a user searches for a particular word or phrase. When creating content as part of your inbound marketing strategy, you’ll want to employ various Search Engine Optimization (SEO) techniques to have your page rank higher in search engine results. You can use SERP rankings to measure the effectiveness of your content and SEO techniques. In this episode, Harris and Shawn discuss how founders and marketers can use SERP as an important metric to measure the performance of content against particular keywords. They begin by talking about the need to understand a product’s niche and audience before moving into various SEO and SERP tips and tools. One Powerful Quotation: * 30:10 – Shawn: “You employ all of your good SEO techniques to make [your content] rank more highly, and then you use SERP to measure how well your page [performs in search results].” Key Topics: * 1:00 – Harris and Shawn talk about life events and various work projects. Shawn mentions that he’s working on a collaboration project with @Odd_Jayy (https://twitter.com/Odd_Jayy) and @glowascii (https://twitter.com/glowascii). * 4:20 - Shawn gives tips on how to find time to read books. * 9:00 - Shawn gives a definition for Search Engine Results Pages (SERP) and why it offers a better metric than Search Engine Optimization (SEO). * 11:45 - Harris asks about good versus bad (trickery) SEO. * 14:00 - Shawn defines SERP, which is an indication of where your site shows up in search engine results when a user searches for particular keywords * 16:15 - Harris talks about Google’s new shopping tab * 17:15 - Harris and Shawn talk about how product search engines within a site (e.g. Amazon’s search) differs from broader search engines, like Google. * 19:00 - Shawn mentions a recent development where people are receiving random packages containing seeds. It turns out that this is a part of a scam to boost Amazon reviews for vendors (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/08/04/free-amazon-orders-scam-mysterious-seeds-packages-brushing/5580858002/). * 21:08 - Harris and Shawn give their perspectives on running traditional outbound marketing techniques, such as running Google or Facebook ads. * 23:52 - Shawn recounts his experiences creating content for SparkFun and how successful it was at driving pageviews. * 25:40 - Shawn talks about creating content to maximize SERP number. Namely, “evergreen” content that continues to draw users for years after posting offers some of the best SERP value. * 29:53 - Shawn describes how SEO can be used to boost SERP. * 30:30 - Harris and Shawn give reasons for why they’re using Binho, LLC (https://binho.io/) as an example of how to create evergreen content for a niche audience. * 31:01 - Shawn describes the importance of patience with inbound marketing. * 33:20 - Harris talks about reusing and distributing content. * 34:27 - Shawn talks about why voice and video should (probably) not be your primary content for inbound marketing (at this point in time). Most search engines still prioritize written content, so written content should be your focus. * 39:03 - Harris introduces his new project: Intro CRM (https://introcrm.com/). * 41:11 - Shawn helps Harris brainstorm ideas for evergreen content that could be created to drive traffic to his new service. * 49:58 - Shawn mentions that Neil Patel’s Ubersuggest tool (https://neilpatel.com/ubersuggest/) can be very helpful for discovering keywords, creating article titles, and analyzing people’s search patterns. * 51:29 - Shawn introduces the concept of pillar content (https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/what-is-a-pillar-page), which is a collection of related articles that link to each other and all pages link back to a single, important piece of content. * 56:22 - Harris asks what would be good content if your audience doesn’t know the right words or jargon to use (i.e. they don’t know what a “host adapter” or “CRM” is). * 1:02:23 - Shawn talks about setting your expectations when competing with content from large companies. * 1:03:05 - Harris stresses the importance of having a good, differentiated product to start with. * 1:06:52 - Harris and Shawn talk about how to market products that may not have all the features you hoped for on launch. * 1:09:21 - Shawn recommends the book The Innovator’s Dilemma (https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244) to learn about how to create products that serve a niche well. * 1:11:11 - Shawn talks about the importance of needing to market your product while you’re developing it and recommends the book Content, Inc. (https://www.amazon.com/Content-Inc-Entrepreneurs-Successful-Businesses/dp/125958965X) to assist in this journey. * 1:13:50 - Shawn talks about his experiences creating pillar content and measuring SERP. He recommends the tool Serposcope (https://serposcope.serphacker.com/en/) to automatically report the SERP rankings of your site versus various keywords on a daily basis. * 1:17:34 - Harris asks Shawn about the tools he uses to measure SEO and SERP. Shawn lists Neil Patel’s SEO Analyzer (https://neilpatel.com/seo-analyzer/) and Rank Math SEO for WordPress (https://rankmath.com/) in addition to the previously mentioned tools. * 1:19:29 - Harris talks about his poor experience working with an outsourced SEO firm. * 1:20:26 - Harris and Shawn talk about the skills required to create good content and why building trust is so important. * 1:22:02 - Harris and Shawn talk about how to create content that’s relevant to your audience. Shawn recommends the book Youtility (https://www.amazon.com/Youtility-Smart-Marketing-about-Help/dp/1591846668) for learning how to create valuable, relevant content. List of Resources * Rework (https://www.amazon.com/Rework-Jason-Fried/dp/0307463745) * Sapiens (https://www.amazon.com/Sapiens-Humankind-Yuval-Noah-Harari/dp/0062316117/) * Neil Patel’s Ubersuggest tool (https://neilpatel.com/ubersuggest/) * The Innovator’s Dilemma (https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244) * Serposcope (https://serposcope.serphacker.com/en/) * Neil Patel’s SEO Analyzer (https://neilpatel.com/seo-analyzer/) * Rank Math SEO for WordPress (https://rankmath.com/) * Youtility (https://www.amazon.com/Youtility-Smart-Marketing-about-Help/dp/1591846668) Host Contact Information: shawnhymel.com (https://shawnhymel.com/) kennyconsultinggroup.com (http://kennyconsultinggroup.com) LinkedIn - Shawn Hymel (https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawnhymel/) LinkedIn - Harris Kenny (https://www.linkedin.com/in/harriskenny/) Twitter - Shawn Hymel (https://www.twitter.com/ShawnHymel) Twitter - Harris Kenny (https://www.twitter.com/harriskenny) License Information: “Hello Blink Show” by Kenny Consulting Group, LLC and Skal Risa, LLC is licensed under CC BY 4.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) Intro and outro song is “Routine” by Amine Maxwell is licensed under CC BY 3.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
In this episode, we have an interview with Susan Guthrie - Family Law Attorney, Mediator, and Host of Divorce & Beyond Podcast. Learn more about Susan here: https://divorceinabetterway.com/. Visit us at divorceandyourmoney.com for the #1 divorce resources in the USA and get personalized help. Shawn: In the beginning of the process, as you're doing your research, one of the most important things you can do is figure out what are your options and what are the best ways to proceed during the divorce process. And know that the traditional method of divorce litigation is not the only method that exists when it comes to the divorce process, and you may have options. There's mediation, there's collaborative divorce. But in this particular episode, I want to discuss mediation, and to do that, I'm bringing in a great guest. Shawn: Her name is Susan Guthrie. She is a family law attorney with over 30 years of experience. And she's going to give us an overview of some of the key things about mediation to think about. She'll describe the process really well in this episode. And the other thing that's interesting about mediation is that there's the possibility for online mediation. And so, there may be some advantages to that as well. So, I hope you enjoy the interview with Susan Guthrie and also be sure to check out her podcast. She has a really good podcast that's called Divorce and Beyond. So, without further ado, here's my interview with Susan. Shawn: Today on the show I have with me Susan Guthrie. Susan is a family law attorney, mediator, and a podcast host of her own. Susan, welcome to the show. Susan: Thank you, Shawn. I'm so pleased to be here. Thank you for having me. Shawn: Susan, let's start with ... actually, I just want to start with the podcast so other people can listen to it. It's great. I recently did an interview on it. Why don't you tell us about your podcast? Susan: Thank you. Yes, and by the way, your episode is doing very, very well. People are always interested in Divorce and Their Money, it's called, my podcast is, Divorce and Beyond. It's really focused on, I've been a divorce attorney and a mediator for 30 years, so I bring that insider knowledge to the divorce process, and bring experts on to help with that, such as yourself. But I also am very much focused on the beyond, because divorce is really a finite time in your life or I certainly hope that it is, and you have a future ahead. So, many of our episodes are focused on preparing for the beyond, preparing for your future. Shawn: Great, and I encourage everyone to listen to it. There's lots of great episodes on there and you bring a great collection of interview guests on there as well. That's really interesting. Susan: Oh, thank you. Shawn: So, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background. I know you said you practiced for 30 years, but why don't you give us your credentials so to speak? So, we all understand who we're listening to. Susan: I have practiced as a family law attorney and still do to some degree for 30 years. My original State of practice was Connecticut, and I was located there in Fairfield County for 25 years or so, with a pretty traditional law practice. Then, branched out on my own and started moving around the country. I moved to California first, so I'm also licensed to practice law there. But I also segued my practice over to mediation, and in fact, that's all from a divorce perspective that I do in the process of helping couples negotiate and settle their divorce issues. I now live in Chicago. Susan: My practice is now entirely online, and I help people both through online divorce mediation services as well as legal coaching services around the world because I can do it online. I feel very lucky that I have been a divorce attorney and operating at a fairly high level. I dealt with a lot of high conflict and high net worth cases during my litigation practice. So, as you mentioned, I have access to a large number of really excellent experts because I've worked with them over the years in my practice, and I love bringing that wealth of knowledge and really that insider side of things to my listeners. Shawn: Yeah, I think that's great. You worked with a lot of high conflict people and now you do a lot of mediation work. Why did you make that shift? Susan: Yeah. So, it was sort of two fold. But really what it boiled down to, and for anyone who's seen the movie that's out right now, Marriage Story, you will understand I think what I'm talking about. But I got involved in divorce litigation when I first got out of law school, because frankly 30 years ago, that's really all that was out there. The litigation process is very adversarial. It is set up on a party A versus party B platform like any other lawsuit. Unfortunately, when you're talking about restructuring families, that is not a very good model for success. Susan: Unfortunately, that process actually drives people further apart, and then, when they find themselves post-divorce needing to co-parent or communicate, the animosity and the adversity that was brought up during the divorce and exacerbated during the litigation process really only makes it worse. It sets up an ongoing conflict cycle. So, mediation is an opportunity for parties to sit down, couples to sit down, and work together in a more cooperative fashion to communicate and restructure their family in a way that works best for all of them. Susan: It's not based on that win lose model, and so now having worked in both formats, the reason I only do mediation at this point is because the results for clients are so much better. Shawn: Let's start by defining what is mediation versus litigation. Can you just give us an overview of what that means, what that process looks like, how it differs? Susan: Sure, and actually that's a great place to start because there is a great deal of misunderstanding at times for people when it comes to mediation. I always hear it called the kinder, gentler way to divorce, or the kumbaya method of divorce. I will tell you, divorce mediation, like any process that you would go through to negotiate or resolve the issues of a divorce, it takes effort. It has its moments where it's not an easy process, but divorce mediation is based upon a principle of the two parties sitting down with a neutral professional, that could be an attorney like myself. It could be a financial professional. Susan: I know a lot of professionals who are financial advisors, who also are mediators, or therapists, or other professionals, but they sit down with a trained professional who's there to help them identify the issues that they need to resolve in the divorce, to give them an understanding of the law, and context, and nuance around those issues. Then, really importantly, to support both of them in having the difficult conversations that need to be had on how those issues are going to be resolved, with an eye to identifying what works best for all of them. Again, we're always in mediation looking for the third solution. Susan: We're not looking for the win for one side and a loss for the other. We're looking for that third solution that allows everyone to get as much of what they want on a needs base or interest based perspective, so that everyone walks away with a decision and with agreements that incorporate as much as possible what they've chosen that they can and cannot live with. Shawn: Let's give a concrete example of that, and I'm just thinking of, I want to just use a very simple case. Let's just say we have a house, a couple of retirement accounts, a couple of cars. How would I know when to use mediation and what would that look like for me versus going the traditional route and what would that mediation process look like start to finish? Susan: The two processes, they look similar because any method that you're going to use to resolve your divorce is going to sort of go through the same stages. You're going to have the quantifying or the pulling together of information stage. In litigation, we call that discovery. In mediation, we call it information gathering phase, but then you're going to discuss the issues. Then, you're going to come to agreement on the issues in 95% of the cases. So, the difference with mediation is, in litigation everything is done on a compulsory manner and fashion. Motions are filed, requests for orders are made, requests for production are made. Susan: Everything has time limits, and rules, and things are done because you are under court orders to do them. The difference is, in mediation, everything is done by agreement, including the fact that the parties are in mediation at all. Mediation is 100% voluntary as opposed to litigation, which people can be dragged kicking and screaming into, or if they ignore it, it's going to happen without them. So, the mediation process itself, just as a litigation case would start, does start with the information gathering. But it's not done in that fashion where you exchange compulsory requests for information. Susan: We sit down with your mediator, with the two clients, and compile all of the necessary information by agreement that we're going to do that as a part of the transparency of the process. That has a lot of different effects. The biggest one being it takes much less time to pull together all the information because we are talking about what everyone needs to see, wants to see, and agreeing to pull it together. It's also much less expensive because the parties are not utilizing legal counsel, filing of motions, all of which that they pay their attorneys for. Susan: It's usually much more successful, because nobody will drag their feet usually in the same fashion because, again, they've agreed that they're coming to the table to work through the process. So, in many ways, I've seen litigation cases where we have literally spent years, you mentioned a simple case where there's a house and some accounts, et cetera, that could take a relatively short period of time with that type of state to value things, because you have either written statements or you can get an appraisal. But when you get into some more complicated cases, or where there's a family owned business, or a cash business, or something of that nature, I've had cases drag out forever in the discovery process because it's so hard to get the information exchange, and that really just doesn't happen in the mediation setting. Shawn: You covered a lot of things that I have some kind of followup questions on. One of them that comes up, I hear every week or so is, oftentimes one party may not be as forthcoming as they should be during mediation. How does one handle that? Susan: So, that happens. Definitely it happens in litigation as well. So, the first thing to remember is, because mediation is by agreement, both of the parties have a reason or reasons why they have agreed to come to the negotiation table in mediation. Mediation tends to move much more quickly than litigation, so maybe time is an issue for them. It's usually infinitely less expensive. Maybe money is an issue for them. Maybe they feel it's a better forum for working through the issues. Whatever their motivations are, that brought them to the table, are the motivations that will also compel people to be forthcoming with the information that is required. Susan: Because what happens is if people do not come forth with requested information, the mediation process comes to a halt. Because if you are sitting at a table and one party does not feel they have the information that they need in order to make the decisions or the agreements that need to be made, the process can't move forward. You are putting people in the position, by making that choice not to be forthcoming, you're putting the other side in the position of having to take you into litigation. Susan: Having to compel your discovery as we were talking about earlier with the motions, and the depositions, and all of that. So, usually, it takes the mediator reminding the parties why they're there, that this is a voluntary process. They agreed to be involved in it, and failure to comply with reasonable requests for information are just by necessity going to bring the process to a conclusion. Shawn: I think that makes sense. I want to ask some technical questions about mediation, or just some basic questions is, you're a mediator and you're also an attorney, do the parties also have their own attorneys? How does that work? Who's actually in these mediation sessions? Susan: The majority of my mediation sessions are just the two people who are going through the process. That is not to say that they don't have outside consulting professionals, and I am very much a believer in the team approach to divorce. I think that everyone usually will need some sort of support as they go through the mediation or divorce process, whatever they're going through. That can include a consulting attorney, because as you point out, I am an attorney, but when I am operating as a mediator, I am not representing either of the parties. Susan: That would be an ethical breach. You can't, as an attorney, represent both sides of an equation. There's a conflict of interest there. So, your mediator, even if they're an attorney, is there as a neutral professional to support both parties. But often, people will need some outside legal advice, and it can be very, very helpful to the mediation process for them to have a good professional that they can go to. Other professionals are people like you CDFAs. I highly recommend using a certified divorce financial analyst, or a financial support team, especially in those cases. Susan: You mentioned that there are often one side of an equation in a divorce where they're not forthcoming with information. There's another paradigm that comes up all the time where we have one party who's pretty financially savvy and the other one who is not, and so, they feel very disempowered in making decisions. So, getting them some support by getting them a financial advisor or getting them a financial planner analyst, can be very helpful to the mediation process because it helps to support them and educate them as they go through. Another person that's often brought in is a therapist. Susan: If we have parenting issues, and maybe we have an issue with special needs for a child or developmental issues around the child's upbringing. So, I very much believe in the team approach to divorce, the divorce process as a whole, and certainly in mediation. Shawn: If I'm thinking about the mediation process, sometimes people think, is it just one meeting in an afternoon, is it multiple meetings? How does that work? Susan: Generally, it's a series of meetings. My mediations tend to be scheduled for two hours at a time, and that is because in two hours we usually can make some headway, start talking about real issues, and making proposals, and making agreements. But beyond two hours, it's an emotional context, right? You're talking about your kids, you're talking about your money, you're talking about separating all those things. So, the emotional content is very fatiguing. You are either in the same room, or if you are with me mediating, you're in the same Zoom meeting, and two hours tends to be where people sort of burn out. Susan: And what I don't want is my clients making decisions out of fatigue, or just saying because they're just so tired and they want to move on saying, "Fine, I'll do that." Because what ends up happening is they then leave the mediation, that session, come back to the next one having thought about it and they will backtrack. And that's harmful to the process only because now we have trust issues, "Well, you said you would do it. I relied upon that and now you're backtracking." So, it's better to do it in bite sized chunks that you can process, take your time, and move through it. Susan: Usually, it depends on the couple. It's usually a few three, two-hour sessions. It can be certainly more than that. I've had cases move faster. There are other types of mediations, so another type of mediation for family cases that people will be acquainted with is a case that's been in the litigation process all along. They're usually close to the courtroom door for trial, and they will, as what I call last ditch effort, resort, to sitting with a mediator for sometimes a full day session to try and resolve those last outstanding issues. Susan: In those cases, usually the attorneys who have been representing the clients all along are involved, and those usually tend to be one marathon type, long day type session. But for people who start in mediation, their divorce process from the start is in mediation, usually two, maybe three-hour sessions and a few of those, but infinitely faster. I will tell you, most of my divorce mediations are completed before the sixth month. California has a six-month waiting period. Connecticut has a 90-day waiting period. Susan: Those are my States of licensure, and we're definitely usually done by the sixth month mark in California, three months ... It just depends on the complications of the issues. Shawn: That's good to know, and if I'm sitting at home listening to this or wherever I may be listening to this, how do I know whether I can go down the mediation route? What kind of things should I be thinking about to say and maybe even conversations I might need to have with my spouse in terms of, "This is an approach that may work for us." Susan: That's another great question, because that's one of my key things I want people to know, that your best approach to divorce is to try mediation in most cases from the beginning. Because if it doesn't work, you always have litigation to fall back on. That will always be there for you. But knowing that it's a possibility at the beginning and giving it a try for all of the reasons of all of the benefits that it has, is something that I love for people to know from the very beginning. So, some of the things to be thinking about are, do you have the ability to self advocate? Susan: And if you don't feel that you do, can you find support to help you with that? There are a lot of amazing divorce coaches, legal coaches like myself. I work with a number of people going through mediation, helping them to strategize what they're looking for. I was just listening to one of your podcast episodes and you mentioned the question, what do you want? That's a huge question when you go into a mediation. You don't go into any process of divorce without knowing where you want to go, or the process is going to happen to you rather than you being an active participant in it. Susan: But that's really the question, is do you have the wherewithal to sit down and do the work that needs to be done with the help of your mediator? And to bring your spouse to the table, people ask me all the time, "Well, I'd love to do mediation. It's less expensive, it's less stressful, it's less time consuming, it's less adversarial. All of those things, it's better. It helps us create communication pathways for our kids so that we can co-parent in the future." All of those are benefits and those are actually the things that help you to talk to your spouse about trying mediation. Susan: Because the thing I always tell people is, the one thing that we do know after having been married to someone is usually what their interests are. And usually, there's one or more benefit of mediation that will appeal to them. Often, it's the cost savings. You and I both know the average divorce in the United States is in the 20s of thousands of dollars per person these days to litigate. Many people, even if they have that kind of money laying around, don't want to spend that kind of money on getting divorce. By the way, it can go much, much higher than that. Mediation is much less expensive. Susan: It tends to be much less time consuming, less stressful. You have much more control over the process. So, knowing whatever you know about your spouse and what would appeal to them, that is usually the best way to approach them and ask them to consider the process. Shawn: That make sense, and can someone come to you for select issues in a divorce? So, let's just say there's 10 things to figure out and they agree upon seven of them, but there's three issues that they still haven't quite resolved yet. Would mediation work for that? Susan: Oh, absolutely. In fact, I often work with couples who maybe have worked out the financial side, but they need help with the parenting plan or vice versa. They know what they want to do parenting wise, but there are certain issues on the side of the finances that they just can't quite resolve. So, you can bring limited issues to mediation. Any sort of any issue can be mediated. Many people who have gone through divorce but then after the divorce there's been a change of circumstances. Someone loses their job, someone gets a big raise, something with the kids comes up and you need to change your parenting plan because children aren't static. Susan: I often mediate that post-dissolution type matter as well. The only thing I would caution, and I just don't want people, because attorneys and mediators are accused often of ramping up, making problems in a divorce that didn't need to be there. What happens sometimes, when a couple comes to a mediator or an attorney to work out issues and they think they've resolved a bunch of them, but they have a couple that still need to be resolved. The thing with a divorce settlement is it's a puzzle. It's not separate blocks of issues. Susan: Everything works together, right? It's a family. So, the money, and the kids, and the house, and all of those things work together. So, sometimes the outstanding issues will have an impact on those issues that they feel they have resolved. So, some of those issues may need to be reworked or looked at again if they don't fit into the overall puzzle context. But, again, that's where mediation is great because you can sit down and talk about, in the broad picture, why maybe perhaps something that they thought they wanted to do isn't going to work in light of another aspect of their settlement that they also would like to accomplish. Shawn: Yeah, that's a good point, is that sometimes it's very hard to isolate particular issues in a divorce, because if you pull on one thing or adjust one thing, it can affect every other item. Susan: Exactly. Shawn: It may work in certain cases, but you have to be open to shifting or changing other parts of the big picture when you do that. Susan: Absolutely. I always tell my clients in mediation, I work off a written agenda. I find people like the visual of an agenda that outlines all of their issues, and then I take notes on it for them as we're going along. I always tell them, although an agenda is a linear thing and item one, item two, item three, and even if we're going to move through it in that order, it doesn't mean that we have to resolve issue one in order to move on to issue two. Often, it's, let's discuss issue one, come up with some possibilities, and then table issue one and work on the next issues because in the end, all of them need to work together. Susan: As an example, someone often wants to keep the marital residence, and both sides may be open to that and may have reasons why they want that to happen. But until you get into the financial side, with support and asset distribution and debt distribution, you may not know if that person can actually afford to maintain the property. So, that's a very common question that will come up, where we have to sort of resolve the support issues and the financial issues in order to know if what they want to do with the house is actually going to work. Shawn: That's great. One last question, which is, at least as it pertains to the mediation, is you do online mediation work. I know you've done in person, of course, work as well. How do you find the difference between just the setting, be it a video call versus everyone's huddled in a conference room kind of atmosphere? Can you just kind of give us your pros, cons, thoughts about that? Susan: Yeah. It's interesting because I do now have an entirely online practice, and I have to say, especially for divorce mediation, I've actually found that the parties having the ability to have a little bit of space, because they do not need to be in the same physical location in order to mediate online, that's actually been a benefit for most of my clients. That they feel more able to emotionally deal with the conversations that need to be had as opposed to sitting just a few feet away from each other in the same room. Susan: I've had many people, when I had a brick and mortar practice, who would come and I would meet with a couple for a consult to just decide if they wanted to mediate. And in the end, it would come down to one of them saying, "I loved all the benefits, but I just emotionally don't feel like I can sit in the same room with my spouse and do this at this moment in time." Because as we know, divorce, yes it is a financial transaction, we're talking about money, et cetera. But in reality, it is an emotional transaction as well. Susan: And so, the video context gives people a little more space, but still you have the ability to see the other person because 85% of our communication is visual, and most of that is our facial expressions and voice. What we say and how we say it, our voice inflections. So, much of that is still readily available in the online context. So, for me, in my experiences, it's actually been a benefit to the mediation process, and most clients are thrilled to be online. They don't have to sit in traffic. They don't have to get a babysitter. They don't have to leave work early. Susan: I know you work online quite a bit and so you know some of those benefits. It has translated very well to the mediation practice. In fact, I train other mediators in how to conduct their mediations online, because this is such a quickly growing aspect of the mediation practice. My colleagues are fascinated by it. Shawn: Yeah, and I think that's one of the hardest things is when you are getting divorced, having to be three feet away from the person you're getting divorced from, staring right at them the whole time. It can make the emotional side of things amplify them quite a bit, just being in the same room. They're funny in retrospect even from the client's perspective, but a lot of times where someone yells, stomps out, runs out of the room, just can't stand being in person with that person they're getting divorced from. Shawn: It's divorce and it's not a pleasant process to begin with. This isn't a civil suit business dispute. So, I think there are a lot of advantages to the online perspective for people who might not have considered it as well, just from that. Susan: Yeah, the ability to, in any way that we can, keep the emotional content a little at a lower level is beneficial to the process. Because the minute people start making decisions from that emotional place, from anger, from fear, from hurt, whatever, divorce unfortunately doesn't embody usually a lot of positive emotions. It's usually a lot of negative emotional content, and the higher that level, the harder it is for people to make rational reason decisions. As you know, these are decisions that are going to live with you, and your family, and your children for years to come. Susan: So, you want to make them from the best emotional place possible, and I'm not saying that it's always easy. But another thing that I do is I incorporate mindfulness techniques into my mediation practice and encourage my clients to have a mindfulness practice if they're open to that, only because it does help. When the emotions start to rise up, to be able to take that step back and find some space. It's really important to be able to think clearly, and that's another reason, going back to where I said the sessions are usually only about two hours long. Susan: I want people making decisions in a space where they feel that those decisions were good ones, or at least made from a reasonable place and that they can live with them. Shawn: That's excellent and thank you for coming on and explaining the basics and the essential parts of mediation. It's not a subject that I talk about too often on my podcast. Why don't you give us the best way to contact you and to learn more? Hopefully, have people potentially work with you in the future if mediation or other services are right for them. Susan: Absolutely. Pretty much everything about me can be found on my website, which is divorceinabetterway.com. My email is susan@divorceinabetterway.com. I encourage anyone who's going through divorce to take a look at the website. I have a lot of curated resources, most of them free, or special discounts that guests on my podcast have offered. I have your book going up on my website shortly, so that people can find it who have listened to the podcast, or go there. But I like to bring as much information to people because that is so empowering in the divorce process. Susan: Get your education, get your information. So, divorceinabetterway.com, and then also the podcast has its own website which can be found through Divorce in a Better Way, or at divorceandbeyondpod.com. Shawn: And outside of mediation you were telling me you do a few other services. Just so people can know, can you describe those? Susan: Yeah, so one of my biggest areas of practice at the moment is legal coaching, which is a little bit different than divorce coaching, because what I'm doing is getting involved in cases. Usually, they're either high conflict cases, where someone is dealing with a high conflict ex that can be a narcissist, a borderline personality disordered person, or just someone who is very difficult to deal with, or high net worth cases. I'm helping the client to learn to manage those relationships, manage the communication so that they can have as much control over their lives as possible. Susan: I help with strategizing, with negotiation strategies. I've been a divorce attorney for 30 years. I negotiate every day of my life. I have to stop myself from doing it in the grocery line because it's so second nature for me. But your average person, unless they have negotiation in their business life, that's not a normal, that's not something that many people are comfortable with. So, I work with just a lot of clients on how to identify what they want and then how to strategize and negotiate to get that in the divorce process. I work with people all around the world in that context. I have clients across this country, Australia, Europe, Canada, all over. Shawn: Well, Susan, thank you very much for coming on the show. I really enjoyed the conversation and I hope the listeners will, too. Susan: Well, and thank you so much for having me, and thank you for coming on my show. Again, I loved that episode and so do my listeners. So, thank you. Shawn: Now, before you go, I want to make sure you get some really important information. I'm going to tell you about a few things that maybe of interest to you. First as a favor, is if you could leave a review, if you're on the iTunes store, leave a review on iTunes, or if you search Divorce and Your Money on a website called Trustpilot or on Google, you can leave a review there. It's quick, it's anonymous. It only takes a few seconds and I really, really appreciate your feedback. I have lots of reviews on iTunes and on Trustpilot, and I appreciate hearing your stories. Shawn: Also, on divorceandyourmoney.com, you can get lots of great information. Of course, you can book a 30-minute strategy session directly with me. There's two types of strategy calls you can book, just a normal strategy session, where we discuss the questions that are most pressing to you regardless of where you are in the divorce process, be at the beginning, towards the end, or in the middle. It doesn't really matter. There's lots of great information we can cover during that strategy call. Also, we have a document review call. Shawn: It's been one of the biggest things that we've done over the past year, which is you can send me your documents, be it your financial affidavit, a settlement agreement, or other documents that you would like for me to review. Then, I review those in advance of the call and then we get to discuss them in-depth as part of a strategy session and get specific answers to some of the specific documents and things that you are considering. Also, for those who need ongoing support, we do have a few options for ongoing support, but regardless, it all starts with a coaching call that you can book at divorceandyourmoney.com. Shawn: Don't forget to also get a copy of my new book. It's called Divorce and Your Money: How to Avoid Costly Divorce Mistakes. It's available on my website, or also on Amazon. You just look me up and make sure you get the new edition. It is filled with excellent information regarding the divorce process, and I know that you will find it helpful. Once you've read the book, be sure to leave a review. That really helps me. I appreciate your feedback and it also helps other people as they try and find this information. And finally, last but not least by any means is on the store at divorceandyourmoney.com, if you click on the store button, you can get access to the full archive of podcast episodes. Shawn: There's over 200 episodes, and what's great about the store link is that the episodes are organized in neat buckets, and they're organized by topic. So, it's very easy to follow along with the information, and it is easy to pick out the key topics that matter most to you. You can get all of those podcast episodes in the store. Thank you so much for listening. I'm your host, Shawn Leamon, MBA and Certified Divorce Financial Analyst. Take care.
Why switch from a fun, high-flying job to a stressful one? Property management is the “Golden Ticket” to finding new properties and creating value to help others. Today, I am talking to Shawn Johnson of Independence Capital Property Management about putting profitability before adding more doors. If your company isn’t profitable, than you can’t create value for the community it serves. You’ll Learn... [02:00] Property Manager with Spare Time: Shawn serves as an instructor pilot for San Juan County Sheriff’s Office. [02:40] NARPM professional member, chapter president, and residential management professional (RMP). [04:30] Passion for Property Management: Happiness comes not from avoiding problems, but finding fun challenges. [06:02] Innovative Incentive: Competing for staff resources increases salaries, compensation, and revenue to successfully facilitate growth and manage the company. [07:35] DiSC Personality Type: Motivated by money or recognition? [10:15] What makes a business profitable? Finding perfect customer/market fit via value-ads and associated fees. [13:42] Charge fees to compensate for extra time, energy, and effort without extra pay. [14:57] Cost Savings: Implement less labor-intensive work (paper checklists) and more technology (videos). [15:55] Tools and Software: Transition from a brick-n-mortar business to remote/virtual office using G Suite, Process Street, AppFolio, and RingCentral. [18:35] Current Client Base: Push out and justify new fee structure; talk them through it. [22:15] Sense of Scarcity: Feel safer and more comfortable raising fees and rates. [24:05] People are willing to pay for good service and experiences. Tweetables Golden Ticket: Finding new properties, and creating value for others. Property management is never dull. Some people aren’t motivated by money, but freedom. Charge fees to compensate for extra time, energy, and effort. Resources Independence Capital Property Management National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) Darren Hunter G Suite Process Street AppFolio RingCentral TalkRoute DGS 7: Increasing Fees in Property Management with Darren Hunter - Part 1 DGS 8: Increasing Fees in Property Management with Darren Hunter - Part 2 DGS 9: Increasing Fees in Property Management with Darren Hunter - Part 3 DGS 80: Automating Your Business with Process Street with Vinay Patankar DGS 82: Real Estate Revolution with Nat Kunes of AppFolio DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to change the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. And today, my guest is Shawn Johnson of Independence Capital Property Management. Shawn, welcome to the show. Shawn: Thanks, Jason. Thanks for having me. Jason: Glad to have you. Shawn, we’re going to be getting into the topic today of profitability before more doors. When I mentioned that before the show, you’re like, “Yes, the cart before the horse.” Let’s get into that, but first, I want to give people a little bit of background on you. I’ve got your bio here and I’m going to read this and then maybe you can come and introduce yourself. Shawn grew up in Aztec, Nex Mexico. After completion of his Associate’s Degree from Glendale Community College, Shawn began flight school in Scottsdale, Arizona. Shawn’s career as a helicopter pilot provided opportunities to fly internationally into Mexico, off-shore into the gulf of Mexico, and as an EMS helicopter pilot. Shawn currently flies for the San Juan County Sheriff’s Office as an instructor pilot in his spare time. Shawn began his career in real estate in 2013 and has been investing in real estate since 2003. Shawn is currently a professional member of the National Association of Residential Property Managers and has earned his Residential Management Professional (RMP) designation. In 2017, he served as the NARPM Albuquerque Metro Chapter President and has been elected to serve at the 2020 Chapter President. Shawn enjoys golf, baseball, hunting, and fishing. He apparently is also connected with lots of really lengthy phrases and titles including his business name. Shawn, give us a little bit of a background. Who’s Shawn and how did you get into property management, so people can understand why should they listen to this guy say anything. Shawn: How did I get into property management? It’s kind of by default. My wife pulled me into it. She was a corporate paralegal for a large investment firm in California and in that process we moved, had kids, we moved to New Mexico, and she decided, “You know what? I think there is a need here.” There is definitely a need and we’ve started a management company. I was still flying helicopters at the time but she’s like, “You know what? I can’t do it alone. You’ve got to get out of the fun job and get into the stressful job.” So, I quit flying and here I am. Jason: And you regretted it ever since, right? Shawn: No, I actually really enjoy it. Jason: Good. Shawn: Your introduction to property management is spot on. I think there’s so much gold in it and it’s just really creating value for people. I really enjoy it. Really, it’s a nice “in” to investing in properties. I love investing in properties and this is like a golden ticket to find new properties. Jason: Property managers and everyone in the industry love to joke about how hard the industry is, but there is this passion for it that everyone seems to develop. I think happiness comes not through avoiding problems and challenges. It comes through finding challenges that are exciting to work on and property management is never dull. Shawn: Yeah, that’s a fact. Jason: Never dull, right? Shawn: No. Jason: Let’s get into this topic. Why is it important to have profitability before focusing on getting more doors? Shawn: For us, it was always a mission to be profitable right at the start. Back in the day, we’re just a management fee company. Because of that, we relented in the growth. We had to find ways to make money and compensate our employees appropriately. We live in a very blue collar town that is oil- and gas-driven and the salaries are very hard to compete with. We had to find ways to compensate them nice so that they weren’t pulled away from property management into oil and gas industry. Those are the things that were important to us. If you’re not a profitable company, you can’t create value for the community that you serve. You just can’t. You have to have money to be able to grow and expand and introduce new programs into your business. That was our mission right at the beginning. Jason: Because you’re competing with oil and gas for staff resources in your market, you’ve had to probably have a higher salary base than what would be typical for most management companies in most markets. Shawn: Yeah, they sell. Jason: In order to do that, you probably had to get a little bit innovative. Anytime we have a constraint as an entrepreneur, we have a challenge like that to overcome, we have to innovate. What were some of the steps you took to create a space that you could afford to have really good team members? Shawn: One step was to create an incentivized comp plan. Our property managers are licensed real estate brokers, but we pay them off a percentage as the whole of the portfolio, not just a management fee. Anytime they bring in a late fee or an annual inspection that’s performed on the property, then they get a portion of that fee as well. That help us increase their annual revenue as well because it hurts when they lose a property and when we get a new property on, it actually helps them gain their salary as well. Jason: Okay. You’ve basically created the natural incentive for them to help facilitate growth and help successfully manage the company. And if the company does better, they do better. Shawn: Exactly. Jason: I find that a lot of people, especially those that on a DISC profile that are not DI, they don’t have a high economic score. They’re not super motivated by additional money. As entrepreneurs, we tend to naturally think everyone’s like us; they love money. Those individuals that are not motivated by more money are more motivated by recognition. When you pick these team members and you have this comp plan, are you looking for people that also operate somewhat in a BDM role? Are they more of a sales-driven type of person? Are they a DI DISC personality type or more on the extroverted side? Shawn: No, we actually don’t want to mix those two―BDM and a portfolio management. You’re right. A lot of people are not motivated financially like entrepreneurs are, but what we found is giving unlimited vacation time, some perks to the business, having the ability to work from home or wherever they are. Everything that we do is electronic and digital anyway, so those perks. A lot of them are young parents and if they need to pick up their kid at school at three o’clock, who am I to say? As long as your job is done and you’re doing it effectively, then we don’t put constraints on that. I think that pools in that attraction to the job. Jason: I find those to be huge incentives, similar to running our virtual teams. Being able to work virtually and work from home, having flex time, being able to set your own schedule and as long as you’re getting work done, and being able to take vacations when you need to or want to, that’s huge. People want freedom. They want autonomy and that tends to attract the more entrepreneurial people we would like in our business. To what you’re saying, yeah it makes sense. The BDM portfolio thing would be segregated. But also that allows you, in your market, to have compensation that is on par with maybe what they might be getting in the oil and gas industry or at least competitive, right? Shawn: Absolutely. I would say that our salaries, once they have a full portfolio, they’re making as much, if not more, than what they would get comped in oil and gas industry which is good. That’s what we want. Jason: Right, and in oil and gas industry, they probably don’t have some of those other perks, I would imagine? Shawn: Oh, not at all. Jason: You’ve made your business intentionally competitive to maintain good people. Let’s get deeper into the profitability aspect. Since you’re paying more money for people, how do you make sure this is profitable? Shawn: We really evaluated the things that we did as a business beyond just the normal management stuff. What are the value-adds that we do every day? If they are a true value-add, can we add an associated value-add fee to it? We kind of looked at it that way. We went through Darren Hunter’s program and it was phenomenal. It definitely revolutionized the way we thought about our fee structure, but it also helped us think about and be cautious of those clients that are cost-conscious. If they are and all they care about is the cost of the service, then they may not be the right fit. It naturally brings in that right type of clientele when you have a fee structure beyond just a flat fee and everybody else is doing the same flat fee or whatever percentage fee. So, that was huge for us. As far as profitability goes, it varies in leasing season, but in our leasing season we’re about 44% profitability. Leasing fees and lease renewal fees, those things have to happen in the property management business. But to actually gain revenue from it is extremely important. I could look at our business structure and see that we have a leasing fee and we have a lease renewal fee, but my competitors lease homes in twice the amount of time that we do and they don’t push for lease renewals. So me as an investor, I’d be upset if they didn’t try to keep my tenants in a lease especially through the winter time. Such a cyclical business, we have seasons, and you don’t want it to go vacant in December. That little fee is nothing compared to having a vacant home in those times. Jason: What other fees did you guys start to identify and add going through this process? Shawn: We did a lease administration fee for our tenants. That was pretty big. The annual inspection fees—that’s a third party vendor that’s an actual inspector and he’ll come inspect the houses on an annual basis—there’s a little upcharge for that. A year-end statement fee. We found that our controller list just spinning a ton of time preparing for the year-end stuff and making sure everything was clear to send off to our clients’ accountants, so we incorporated a fee in that. Then a maintenance coordination fee. Our maintenance coordinators, we have one and we just hired a new one so we have two now, and they’re just super busy. Coordinating maintenance is a huge task and it’s such an important one here. We do have a small fee for that. There’s probably a bunch more. I’m not in the day-to-day as much anymore, so I’m kind of not thinking of the big ones. Obviously the bulk ones were leasing fee and lease renewal. Those are big and they’re often overlooked. Jason: One of the things you did then was you identified all the different situations in which it was taking extra time, extra energy, extra effort, you weren’t getting paid anything extra, and then just systematically saying, “Hey, can we add a fee to ensure that we’re getting compensated for this additional work?” to make sure that you business is profitable. Shawn: Sure. Jason: Okay. We’ve got somebody watching says, “Can you list the fees again?” I had down a leasing fee, a lease renewal fee, lease administration fee, annual inspection fee, year-end statement fee, and a maintenance coordination fee. Shawn: Those are the big ones. Kelly, reach out to me. I will give you the list. Jason: Slow down. Kelly you can rewatch this as many times. This is being recorded and it’s also on Facebook. Also for those watching this later, we have full transcription when this comes out on iTunes and you can check that out on our blog at doorgrow.com. Let’s get into other ways in which you’ve made this profitable. So, obviously increasing fees. You weren’t able to decrease cost with staff. This allowed you to increase cost with staff. Were there any cost savings things that you were able to implement? Shawn: Probably just technology and trying to not be super labor-intensive. I would say that doing things like move-in, move-out videos instead of running through an entire list on paper and whatnot. It takes a little bit less time than doing it on paper. Those types of things. It’s just efficiencies in the office. Then we set up our team literally to work from anywhere. If you’re on vacation, you want to check on a lease or whatever, it’s possible and super helpful. Those things help with driving cost down because you’re not focusing on the, “Hey, John. Are you back at the office? Can you reach me that file?” That’s just a waste of time. Jason: What are some of the things you’ve done to enable and facilitate this transition from being a brick-and-mortar business that operates on sneakernet, where everybody is walking into each other’s offices saying, “Hey, do you have this?” to being a virtual team that they can work from basically anywhere? Shawn: The big things are softwares that enable cloud access. Our general office is on G Suite. Everything operates through there and then our processes are through Process Street which is super helpful and can be accessed anywhere again. AppFolio for our software. They are super tech savvy as far as online stuff. I wish they’d open their API, that’s my shout out to them. Jason: Yeah, I’ve heard that a lot. Shawn: I imagine you have. And then RingCentral. We have a team in Mexico and I’ve got a team member in the Philippines, and they literally can call our office in Farmington, New Mexico. Then we have another Flagstaff office as well. It’s so easy because they can pick up their phone and it acts like they’re dialing from their desk. That was a key point we had to set up six years ago which was, back then, it wasn’t really heard of. Jason: Cool. I use all of those software or have in the past except AppFolio. Shawn: You don’t need that. Jason: We’ve had Process Steet on the show. Great interview. For those listening, I recommend you check it out. G Suite were a Google Apps reseller, so if people need help with that we can certainly help you get set up. We used RingCentral for several years. We eventually switched to Talkroute because we found that most of our team weren’t doing a lot of calling on our team and if they did, they had unlimited cell phone minutes. Talkroute just allows you to auto attendant and the call routing and the extensions but they can dial through the Talkroute app out of their phone and then it just uses their cell phone minutes. It’s free basically for outbound calls. It can also receive text messages. We switched to Talkroute and probably saved ourselves about $400 or $500 a month. Shawn: That’s big. I love it. Jason: What are some other things you focused on then to facilitate profitability? You’ve got the fees. You’re paying your team well so you can compete. You’ve got your leveraging technology. You’ve set up your team to be more virtual which is scary for a lot of property managers who’ve been doing things a certain way. Anything else? Shawn: What I would say is tap into your current client base. You probably have a ton of really loyal clients. Don’t forget to just really push out your new fee structure and justify those fees. Believe in what you’re charging to those current clients. When we switched over to a new fee structure, hardly anybody left. We had 12 clients leave on our first push. We found that those 12 clients were probably 12 good clients to leave. Jason: Out of how many clients? Shawn: We were at 614 at the time, 12 left. We had a second push and we did this in phases because you have to be really sensitive to homes that are vacant. You don’t want to increase fees on somebody that has a vacant home. That’s a stressful time already. We certainly don’t want to increase feels on a client that has not been in your portfolio for less than a year. They don’t really know and trust you yet. Then I haven’t built that loyalty for you. So don’t touch those yet. Once you segment those out and you found the client base that you really want to go after, then do it. Don’t just send out an email and hope that they sign into an agreement. You have got to follow-up. If you don’t follow-up, they’re just not going to believe in what you’re trying to do. So, make sure that you follow through with all of that. I’ve heard of people, “Hey, I increased my fees and I sent out this email. I got no response,” and I’m like, “Well, did you do anything else besides that? Because you got to call them. You got to pick up the phone and just talk them through.” It’s a scary thing. I just had a fee increase from one of the vendors that we use in our business and I was like, “What the heck?” My initial reaction was, “What the heck is going on?” Then, they talked me through and I was like, “You know what? It’s all good. We’re happy with you guys. We’re going to move forward. It’s all good.” I think that’s most people. Jason:Yeah, have a conversation. If you’re looking for the process that you went through or that Darren Hunter could have outlined—we’ve had him on the show before a few times—check out the episodes with Darren Hunter. Great content. He gave a lot away here in the show. You can check that out. I just saw him actually in Phoenix. So, 12 of out 614 that’s maybe 2%. Shawn: That was the first push. We did lose more the second round. There was probably a total number of 65. I can’t remember exactly that left, but our profitability went up. Jason: You lose 10% but you’re making more money, then not such a big deal, and usually those are the worst properties in your portfolio. What tends to happen then is you increase your revenue. You lose your profit. You lose a little bit of clientele, but you’re also losing the ones that take up the most amount of time, typically. Those particular doors probably have 10 times higher operational costs than a good door. By losing that pile in your portfolio, you’re gaining room to manage a lot more and you’re gaining a lot more leverage. Your profitability probably goes up even more because your operational costs go down significantly by cutting out the most challenging, most micromanagy, and most price sensitive owners that are the most challenging properties. Hopefully, people are a little bit sold to this idea, “Hey, maybe I can increase my fees,” because I do believe that property management businesses in general are not charging enough. They really deserve to be paid well for what they do. They provide a really valuable service and I feel there’s been this false scarcity that’s been created by marketers. Focus on SEO, pay-per-click and these sort of things where it feels like it’s difficult to grow. It feels scarce but they’re 70% self-managing in single family residential. There’s tons of blue ocean, there’s tons of opportunity, the scarcity is false. It really doesn’t exist. For those listening, if you feel like things are scarce, we should have a conversation because we can get you out of that mode of scarcity so that you feel safer and more comfortable raising your fees and rates. I believe that’s a false perception that doesn’t need to exist in the industry and it creates a problem for the entire industry—this sense of scarcity. It creates this competition that I don’t think really needs to be there. Really, the industry as a whole needs to be building each other up and helping each other out. You seen that being involved in NARPM. Shawn: Yeah, that’s right. NARPM’s big on that. Jason: Shawn, this has been really helpful. Any other other takeaways or things that you’ve explored your journey to make your business more profitable to grow your company? Shawn: I think most people get a little scared because of the competition and they’re worried about raising their fees. Let me just tell you that our competitors don’t charge anything besides a tenant, whatever, management fee. I almost said the fees. I don’t know if that was against the rules or something like that. Jason: I’m not a property manager so I guess you and I can talk about it. But someone else might hear it. We’re not colluding. Shawn: We are not colluding. Just don’t be fearful of that. I think that if you’re truly creating a value for your customer and clients that that is irrelevant, that people are willing to pay for good service and good experiences. When you raise your fees, it has a natural thing that happens that you get rid of the lower-end properties. The lower end properties cost you more money, they cost you more time, they cost you more stress, and they cost you more employees. They will burn out on the low-end properties. Once you bring on nicer properties and you keep to a standard, they are willing to pay the higher fees and get better service, and it naturally increases your profits. That’s a big win for us. Jason: Awesome. Well, Shawn it sounds like you’re doing great things in Farmington, New Mexico. Did you ever think that you would just end up in Farmington, New Mexico? Shawn: That’s the thing about New Mexico. It’s the land of entrapment, but it just brings you back. I’ve lived all over the country and it’s a good place to raise a family. Jason: Awesome. Shawn, I appreciate you coming onto the show. Thanks for being here. I appreciate your insight and I wish you continued success. Shawn: Thank you, Jason. I appreciate your time. Jason: If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and make a difference then maybe we should have a conversation. So, reach out. There is a lot of opportunity in the industry to grow a property management business right now. I think we’re on the cusp of a wave. I think the industry is going to blossom and grow. There’s a lot of big and good things happening when it comes to technology, when it comes to software, when it comes to awareness. We would love to be a part of facilitating that journey with you and I would love the opportunity to be your coach in your business. Reach out to DoorGrow, let’s start with a conversation, and I will give you a free training on some of the secrets and tips. I call it DoorGrow secrets on how you can avoid some of the most common pitfalls of preventing growth. Just reach out and say, “Hey, I want DoorGrow Secrets.” You might find it so interesting and get so excited, you’ll want to work with us. That’s my hope. So, we will talk with you all soon, to everyone’s mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.
Visit us at divorceandyourmoney.com for the #1 divorce resources in the USA and get personalized help. Learn about coaching services here. Thank you for listening! Find a transcript of this episode below. Chris: Hey everybody, it’s Chris Denmon with Denmon and Pearlman out of St. Petersburg, Florida and today I’m with Shawn Leamon. Did I pronounce that right Sean?Shawn: You got it right.Chris: All right. Shawn Leamon, who is a certified divorce financial analyst and the host of a podcast which is Divorce and Your Money. Which is how I found Shawn and we’re continuing our series today. We’re interviewing tangential professionals in other professions that can help our clients get through the divorce process in the best possible way and help them move onto their lives in the best possible way. And so Shawn, you’ll be talking to some of my future clients and my current clients. And take it away, what did I miss? What else about you should we let people know?Shawn: No, I think that’s great. I’m a certified divorce financial analyst. I get to work with people all over the country. My podcast, Divorce and Your Money is probably the largest divorce podcast that’s out there. I like to help people as much as possible because you know, divorce in many aspects, financially, legally and emotionally as well, is a very complex process for someone. So I like to help at least in my small segment where I can. Chris: Absolutely. And yeah, the same idea, right? So when I’m a lawyer and I do lawyer things, and my clients are going through the process, they’ll come to whether it’s for a figuring out a budgeting issue, or whether it’s a tax issue and I’m not an expert at that. That’s not what I know best, and I turn to people like you to help me answer those questions, and a lot of times, it’s easier for me to just introduce my clients to somebody like you, or you to you because then you can help them get the answers they need better than I can do it. And you and I were talking before we started, and I know you from your podcast. I also know you because I was looking up an answer to something that here I am, the divorce attorney, I didn’t know the answer, and you had answer it on a very detailed, excellent blog post that I was able to get the answer for me and then share it with my client. And you’re able to help that way. Chris: So, thank you for taking some time to chat with me today. I appreciate it.Shawn: Thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here.Chris: With my clients, I have two different phases where I think they need help and I’m going to kind of just mention that and let you kind of help educate in any way that you can. But I know that I have clients that right at the very beginning of the process, in anticipation of a divorce, or in anticipation really of a separation where they have one household and they’re getting ready to potentially move into two households, and they have to figure out how to budge for it. Plan for it and make the right decisions with their finances. That’s kind of one bucket where my clients need help.Chris: And then the other bucket is when it’s all said and done, you know as a divorce lawyer I think we’re good at getting things done and then we shake hands and then we release our clients into the wild, right? And sometimes we have clients like maybe a needy spouse who for the last 20 years, she hasn’t really done any of the budgeting and I don’t want to leave them … I don’t want to shake hands and let them go off and have them ill-prepared. And that’s another, that’s an area where I think that they need help. Is that kind of your experience?Shawn: Yeah. You know I think the main focus for anyone who’s thinking about divorce is already in the process, really boils down almost to two things. The first is knowing what you have. The number of conversations where people don’t know they have a retirement account, or you need to know … I mean, if you have a house, you need to know what it’s worth and have a good sense of that. If you have a mortgage, or if you have other debts somewhere. If you have credit cards. Regardless of whether you were the spouse who took care of the finances, or has never seen them at all, your first step is just to figure out, “Well, what are we splitting up?” And from that comes the second question which is, or a second answer that one should know the answer to is, what do you want?Shawn: The other problem or other area I see everyday is that, well you know you have a house that’s worth a certain amount, you know you have these retirement accounts, you know you have maybe a little credit card debt or whatever the case may be, but you don’t really have a clear sense of, “Well, what do I want when this process is over? What will I need to live?” Most of the people, at least that I deal with getting divorced, I like to say, “Look, you’re going to probably die these days at 100 years old. So if you’re 50, you’ve got 50 years of thinking and planning to do. What are you going to be thinking about over the next two or three or five decades? And are the decisions that you’re making right now, splitting up your family and your assets and everything else, are these really kind of what you want for the long-term and are they working for you?”Chris: Sure. And I mean, how do you help people engage in that conversation when … Because divorce is so life-changing, right? People tend to identify with what they’ve been for an extended period of time, especially in a long-term marriage. And then now, sometimes, am I right, would you say that sometimes they don’t even know what it is they want yet? Shawn: Yeah, it’s a great point. And one of the things that I try and tell everyone, which is very hard to do in practice, but actually makes a lot of sense is to depersonalize what you’re going through when it comes to making your decisions. Or the way I like to phrase it is, pretend like you’re the CEO of this process and you’re the businessman, businesswoman and what would just a rational person looking from 30,000 feet think about and would recommend for you and your situation? Meaning, if you’re going through a divorce, there’s any number of overwhelming emotions that make it hard to have any sort of clarity of thought. You know you have got a million questions, you’ve got to figure out this process, let’s forget all of that for a moment. Let’s just pretend that we take … Or the way I do it, or the way I speak about it with people, is let’s just take at least the asset part, the financial part. Let’s just put it all on a piece of paper. Your name doesn’t even have to be on it. It can John Doe or Jane Doe. What would you recommend Jane Doe for their future given what they have right now? And what do you think makes sense?Shawn: and once you kind of remove the you from it, I know it sounds weird, is to take yourself out of this process, but when it comes to making decisions, if you make emotions kind of cloud your judgment, that’s where people can go very far astray or end up making pretty poor decisions. Once you kind of depersonalize it a bit, you can really sit there and just treat them as X’s and O’s or numbers on a sheet of paper and say, “Hey! This person that I’m looking at on this piece of paper should probably do X instead of Y. Or take more of one asset or ask for more support, or ask for less support. And would be better off if we did whatever.”Shawn: And it becomes actually, for most people, a lot clearer pretty quickly once they take the me out of it.Chris: Sure. You got me thinking of the scenario where a party, they’re emotional to a home, and maybe the home is too big for the party by themselves,. The kids may be out of the house, the home might be too big already. But then you may have a, one of the party’s who are really attached to the home and they want to stay in the home but maybe the numbers don’t make sense and maybe if they were to keep the home, not only would they be keeping assets that are not going to generate any money for them in the future, I mean not really, unless you sell the house, it’s not a liquid asset.Chris: But they’re also, their standard of living is necessarily going down because they’re not going to have enough cash flow to do what they want to do. You know, so that’s a … Is that something, is that a problem that you … Is that a scenario –Shawn: That’s one of the most common things that I have to deal with on a daily basis. And the way that I teach people to think about it is before you decide what you want, start with your expenses. And so, the divorce process for most people, as painful as it is for most, is really only going to be a year or two of their life. And as I said earlier, you have decades to think about. Well, let’s start with, what is your life going to cost after this divorce? What is your mortgage payment or rent going to be? How much are you spending on cars and telephone bills and everything else. Once you kind of know – or your kids as well. Once you know what your expenses are, then you can start to say, “Well, all right, now I know at least how much income I need to stay even.”Shawn: And also you can say, “Well how much am I …”, and then you can start thinking about bigger questions like how much am I going to need for retirement or whatever else. But if you start with your expenses, things like that house that you have an emotional attachment to, you can see very quickly and very clearly that in many cases it’s not affordable. And you’ll see, like wow, you know if you’re spending … I’m just going to make up a number but if you’re spending 3,500 dollars a month on a house, and your income for a given year after a divorce is only going to be 5,000 dollars a month, it becomes very apparent that you don’t have much money for anything else.Shawn: And, once you just kind of map out – and when I say map out, I do things very simply. I take a blank sheet of paper and a pen and I say, “Let’s just do some simple math. How much is the house? How much is the car? How much are you spending on kids, clothes, going out, travel, vacations, whatever?” I just take a pen and a paper, nothing fancy, and just start writing down these kinds of things. And then once you have that kind of rough number, doesn’t have to be precise, you can start to think about is, well what is that really look like for me and start making the right decisions based upon that.Chris: Right, that’s a great way to do it, because … I think a lot about the stay at home mom because we represent a lot of stay at home moms and they just … Their responsibilities for the family have traditionally been kid-related stuff, maybe. Maybe the stay at home mom hasn’t traditionally had dollars and cents responsibilities. I mean, they’ll go out there and they’ll do the work and they’ll go do the shopping and all that stuff. But they may not be doing the budget and then it comes time, they have to now figure all of this out and they also have the great unknown of what their income is going to be when this is all said and done, and you know alimony will often play a big part in that.Chris: But if you don’t know what your expenses are, how are you going to know what is the money that you need outside of just saying, “We’ll get you the most amount of money possible.” Which is great, but it’s not really a great way to solve the problem. You just gotta know what you need and then try to get that and maybe some more. And I like your idea of just putting pen to paper with it because sometimes there are lawyers will do things that become a little cumbersome. Spreadsheets and it doesn’t really work. Sometimes simpler is better to help people, especially with so much else that’s going on in a divorce. So many other things to worry about, you know?Shawn: Yeah. There’s a lot to say about that point, particularly with the stay at home moms. I also work with many and there’s a variety of issues oftentimes with the stay at home moms. Sometimes a lack of confidence. I said you have to be the CEO of your divorce process. I’ll always say, because I talk to stay at home moms every day, everywhere, and I’ll say, “Hey, so, while your husband was working, who took care of the kids? Who took care of the house? Who took care of every other daily detail that happened?” And it was always them. And they have all of these skills in terms of managing a very complex life. They might not feel like they do, but they’ve been doing it for 10, or 20, or 30 years. And this is just one other challenge in that process. But they already have everything they need. They just need a little bit of guidance in terms of focusing that same energy they’ve had for a very, very long time.Shawn: And, as part of that, sometimes it’s, you know when I think about things that you need to do when it comes for planning for the process. Well, one big question is, we talked about the house. Sometimes I’ll say, “Well, let’s take some action towards it and find out. If you want to stay in the same neighborhood, why don’t you contact a real estate agent. See what houses are available in your neighborhood. You know particularly if your kids need to stay in the same school district.” I’ll say, “Go check out some apartments in the area. Are any of them feasible? Find out what the rent is for something that you could live with.”Shawn: It might not be the same, but sometimes just gathering some basic information that’s free, no cost to anyone, to call up a realtor and say, “Hey, I’m about to get divorced, or I’m in the divorce process, can you show me what some options are in the neighborhood?” Or, walking to the apartment building or driving over to the apartment building and say, “Hey, what’s a three bedroom in this area cost?” And those types of little steps, not very hard, and you can also start to crystallize, and you can say, “Hey, you know what? This three bedroom apartment actually could really work for me for the next few years while I get back on my feet.” Or you might say, “You know what? I’m priced out of my neighborhood. I need to think about what the right option for me in the long term.”Shawn: And it gives you the ability to confront reality head-on. Good or bad or anywhere in between. But at least you come through, or you start the process with some solid information so that you can make the right decision when it comes to going to mediation or talking with you or whatever else. It’s just you have a real, clear picture of what the future might look like, instead of just guessing and hoping for the best.Chris: a little bit of information goes a long way on the path. So that’s a great idea. And do you find yourself encouraging people to do that early in the process? In the middle of the process? When?Shawn: Yeah, it’s a good question. The answer is as soon as you can. You know, divorce is challenging of course, to understate it. And, you know, it’s not an instantaneous process even to get to the point where the D word gets dropped, much less serving papers and everything else. So, you know, it really depends. What I say is, the sooner you can figure these things out, the better. But, I have people who, and I actually am talking to someone in just a few minutes, who has to, has their proposals, their settlement proposals on the table. Right? And so the question is, well, does this make sense or should I be trying to make some adjustments? And some of the things that we’ve already discussed are going to be exactly that.Shawn: It’s like, “Hey, did you check to make sure that you’re going to be able to afford the house? Or be able to move to another place? Or be able to refinance? Or whatever the case may – or your spouse be able to refinance? If you go with this proposal, and if not, we gotta get these kind of details done now, so we make sure that we’re not walking you in to something that is not ideal for you.”Shawn: You know, the sooner you can plan the better. For the people that I get to work with before even papers are filed, I’ll say, “This is awesome. You’re going to go into your consultation with an attorney, with almost everything prepared, and your attorney is going to be able to take this job and do everything for you and I won’t need to talk to you again.” Other people, if you’re kind of still in the middle of the process, figuring things out, it’s okay, if you’re in the middle, so long as you’re starting to formulate that picture of what it is that you’re really aiming for.Shawn: I mean what I’m trying to say is that, if you don’t have a goal, you’re not shooting towards anything and you really need to have a clear sense of what your goal is for this process, otherwise your attorney, you aren’t as empowered as you could be to help them get to be where they need to be when this process is over.Chris: An awesome way of framing it. And we, again as an attorney, we’re always, we’re goal oriented. We have a process from the very beginning of getting them to conceptualize our clients and focus on their goals. But it can be easy to focus on goals that are more related to the divorce process and maybe kids, and sometimes, for however, it works out, because maybe our clients when they’re coming in, some of the issues we’re addressing at the beginning are more emotional. Sometimes the financial goals outside of minimizing my alimony payment, or maximize my alimony award, which isn’t very concrete, it isn’t very helpful. But outside of some of that stuff, we tend to maybe miss some of those financial goals from the very beginning. Whereas, if we have them from the very beginning, makes it easier to get people to where we need to get them to.Shawn: That’s exactly right. And you know the only thing that I would add to that is also if you have the goals, I say this all the time, is, once you have your goals written down, now’s a great time to talk to your attorney and make sure that your goals are reasonable. Because, you know, I see people who might say, “I don’t want to pay a dime of alimony and no child support and I want 100% custody.” And you’re like, “Your spouse is a decent human, even though the two of you don’t get along. That doesn’t seem like a reasonable case. You might want to think about those a little more.” But, you know, it’s having kind of a sense of what that is, so you know, my job, the way that I do view my job is to make them prepared for you.Shawn: And to, so that whatever time you spend with the client is maximized and you can do your job more effectively. You as the attorney and as the people listening are the people in charge of this process. And you know I’m sort of a support person, but you know, I want to make sure that what you’re doing and what I’m doing can kind of help them get to the best position possible.Chris: Absolutely. Before we go Shawn, do you have any like any tips to help somebody, whether it’s the husband or the wife, when they’re in the beginning of the process, maybe they’ve contacted me, maybe they haven’t, and they’re considering separation. And so, from a financial perspective, do you have any tips to help somebody who is thinking, “Hey, I think I need to get … I think for my own emotional wellbeing, I think I need to be in a separate household from my spouse. Obviously I’ll talk to a lawyer about things like custody and stuff like that. But what do I need to pull off from a financial perspective? And how do I get there?”Shawn: Yeah. I think the two things when it comes to separation. Some of the things that we’ve already discussed, but one is your credit report. Knowing what’s on your credit report. I have clients who make 100,000 dollars a year. I have clients who make 100 million dollars a year. You’d be surprised what’s on a credit report, and there are always surprises. And so just kind of knowing what that is. And then also, knowing what your expenses are. I mean look, when you’re separating, we’ve talked about expenses before, but, your income is going to be the same more or less, whether you’re married or in the separation process. The income part is semi-fixed. The expenses part is now all of a sudden doubling. And so you need to really understand is can you afford that? And what that looks like. Do you have enough savings? Do you have enough income? Do you have enough whatever the case may be that you need to separate.Shawn: And actually might add a third thing to that, is, separation can have other effects on the divorce process and so I always encourage my clients before taking that separation step, to talk to someone like you. You know, consultations are confidential. It’s not like, you know I have some clients who are afraid to step into an attorney’s office. I say, “Look, attorneys are confidential. No one’s going to know that you’re there. No one’s going to sign, put a billboard up in town that says, ‘They met with Christian’. It’s just so that you can understand your situation, the implications of what you’re doing and making sure that you ultimately protect yourself and don’t unintentionally run afoul of something that might come back to hurt you later.Chris: Absolutely. That’s right. I can help them with the legal pros and cons of separating, but you can help them with the practical if you separate, can you do it, and how will you make it work? And what’s it going to cost? Shawn, thanks so much man. I had a great time. I really appreciate you taking a few minutes to chat with me and ultimately chat with my clients and some people that are watching this just for advice. If somebody needs to reach out to you, what do they do? How do they do that?Shawn: Yeah you can visit me at divorceandyourmoney.com, and there’s a podcast by the same thing if you search any podcast player called Divorce and Your Money.Chris: Sounds pretty simple. Shawn, thanks.Shawn: Yeah.Chris: I appreciate it.Shawn: Thank you, Christian. Take care.
Let’s face it, even if you use an LLC, you still need insurance. However, when we need insurance for LLCs, corporations, and land trusts, our local insurance people and providers don’t know how to write the right type of policy to protect our assets. Clint Coons of Anderson Business Advisors talks to Shawn Woedl from the National Real Estate Insurance Group (NREIG) about the importance of insurance and different types of policies that are available. Highlights/Topics: Creating a Limited Liability Company (LLC) doesn’t relieve you of your responsibility to insure the property REIGuard: Accommodates portfolio of one to four family rental dwellings or any line of commercial real estate through any phase of occupancy, anywhere in the country Flippers should purchase Builder’s Risk Forms that include liability coverage for the premises Fix and flips are highest risk type of property for an insurance company; investors are forced to buy a longer-term policy, but won’t get a refund if they sell the property sooner Liability claims take down a company faster than any property loss, regardless of size General Contractor’s Policy covers faulty workmanship; a general contractor needs to provide Certificate of Liability Coverage and Workers’ Compensation Coverage Call monthly to verify their coverage, or add yourself to their General Contractor’s Liability Policy Flipping through a corporation can make it difficult to obtain policies; some carriers only offer coverage in the property owner’s personal name Local insurances don’t insure LLCs, only individuals, because of pre-negotiation through their reinsurance treaties and contracts, so they can’t accommodate for it Insurance agents encourage separate policies for each LLC, not an umbrella policy, to run up the cost; NREIG can aggregate them under one policy to lower rates Name anyone who has an ownership interest in the property that can potentially be included in a lawsuit as additional insured on your policy New investors who come to NREIG discover that they have many choices for property and liability insurance; NREIG structures unique coverage based on client’s needs Resources National Real Estate Insurance Group REIGuard Clint Coons Anderson Advisors Tax and Asset Protection Event Full Episode Transcript: Clint: Hi everyone, it’s Clint Coons here with Anderson Business Advisors and today I have Shawn Woedl on from National Real Estate Insurance Group, and he’s going to talk to us about the importance of insurance and the different types of policies that are out there. We all know as real estate investors that when you go out and you try to find insurance, you talk to your local guide. Many times they look at you as if you’re from another planet, because you’re using strategies that they’re unfamiliar with. We’re talking about LLCs, corporations, and land trust and we’re putting our properties into these entities or as a protection. Many times, when we need the insurance, our local insurance individual does not know how to write the right type of policy that we need to protect our assets. Because let’s face it, even though you use an LLC, you still need insurance. Just this week, I was speaking to an attorney who’s an investor. They called me up, and he said, hey, I have this property in an LLC, and my tenant has been hurt. The ceiling fan fell down and hit him on his foot, and he can’t walk anymore, he’s going to be permanently disabled, and he’s suing my LLC and I don’t have insurance. You think I have a problem? Now, of course, you do have a problem, because even though you create a Limited Liability Company, it doesn’t relieve you of your responsibility to insure the property. So, when we’re setting up these structures, it’s imperative that you get the right information. That’s why I brought Shawn on, I think he can explain, why that’s important. We’re going to ask him a number of questions, and hope that by the end of this, you’re going to understand this is the group you want to go to. So, Shawn, thanks for coming on. How are you doing? Shawn: Doing well, thanks. Thank you, Clint, for having me. Clint: Great. With National Real Estate Insurance Group, can you just give me a brief background as how this came together – this group, because you offer a number of products out there that I think are really advantageous for investors. Shawn: Absolutely. National Real Estate Insurance Group itself is a national independent insurance agency who are licensed and active in all 50 states, with a focus on real estate investors. About twenty years ago, we developed what’s now known as the REI guard insurance program, and it kind of started with two separate programs that came together as one. We have Mike Wrenn here, one of our owners in Kansas City that was working with the home investors franchises and developed renovators insurance, which was a short term program for guys and girls who were doing fix and flips that needed a month or two of coverage and the insurance industry wasn’t responding to their need. Tim Norris and myself were in Cincinnati, Ohio, and we were developing National Real Estate Insurance Group and National Condo and Apartment Insurance Group, with the focus on residential real estate investors that were buying hold opportunities, as well as larger apartments, condo, association, really any line of commercial real estate. In 2010, after really passing some business opportunities back and forth that multiple events across the country, Tim and Mike actually merged their agencies, and developed this crazy program called through National Real Estate Insurance Group called REIGuard, that now can accommodate for a portfolio, one to four family rental dwellings through any phase of occupancy, anywhere in the country, on monthly recording. And then in 2014, I went ahead and merged my agency as well, and we now can accommodate really for any line of commercial real estate an investor decides to dive into. Clint: Wow. I mean that just, I mean, seems like it’s perfect for our clients especially, because at Anderson, we pride ourselves as being a one-stop shop for real estate investors, giving them the tax information, business planning, and asset protection, even a state planning. And it seems like what you’ve done with National Real Estate Insurance Group is hit the same type of demographic target, and that you saw there was a need out there, and people could then go to one place to make sure all their insurance needs are covered. And that’s refreshing, because I know how frustrating it can be, even with my own investing. As I tell people, I own over a hundred properties and it’s just difficult to go out there and find an agent that gets it, and it sounds to me in my experience with working with you, that you guys understand it. And I can tell you this, it took us a long time to finally find someone such as National Real Estate Insurance Group that understands real estate investors. I’ve been real happy with our relationship, to make you a trusted resource for our clientele because of the value you bring to them. So with that, you’re talking about policies. Can you tell me why is a flipper, because we have a lot of flippers, they go out, they buy and sell properties. I don’t think they understand the importance of the insurance, and what type of insurance should they get? Shawn: So, a couple of quick points that I’d like to make on those builders risk type of policies, or forms that these investors can purchase for these fix and flip opportunities: one, it’s typically a builders risk forms for property only. So, unless you specifically ask for liability coverage, that can be an exposure on a lot of builders risk forms to think of, maybe slips and falls, personal injuries like you just mentioned with one of your friends there, that’s happening, those are exposures on a lot of builders risks forms unless you specifically ask for liability to be included for the premises. Understanding the market the way we do, because we’re all investors ourselves, we of course include that into our forms, but to just kind of piggyback on that – renovation properties, short term fix and flips, are considered probably the highest risk type of property for an insurance company to agree to insure. There’s lots of parties going in and out, there’s a lot of ongoing operations, typically, those are susceptible of theft or people breaking and entering. So, insurance companies are going to force investors most of the time to come in and buy a longer-term policy, a six-month to an annual policy, which doesn’t make a lot of sense if the flip in your possession, you think you’re going to have it done in three to four months. Because these policies are fully entered in conception. Meaning, from the get-go, as soon as you agreed to purchase coverage from your carrier, you have to pay the full premium up front, and by the way, if you cancel early because that flip’s completed, you can’t get any money back from the unused premium, that’s the cost of doing business with a lot of these carriers that will agree to actually take on risks, and it’s just on renovation property. And it’s really just because they don’t have an appetite for the risk they’re taking on and they don’t understand the market. Clint: Wow, yeah, I did not know that. I haven’t flipped properties in years, but yeah, I bet a lot of people think that when they buy a policy like that, once they cancel it, they’re going to get a refund of the premium, but they’re not. So that’s good to know. So you’re saying that with all your fix and flip policies, and you’re going to automatically include that liability coverage for them? It’s not something they have to ask for? Shawn: Yeah, this premises liability that’s going to be included on every opportunity that we propose and go over with an investor, whether it’s regardless of its occupancy, we think it’s more important to cover the liability exposure than any property exposure. Think about it, a liability claim, a wrongful death, a personal injury that is severe, can take a company faster down than any property loss regardless of the size. It’s the unknown, once you fail on it, liability goes a couple of years down the line where you think your business is growing well, and then all of a sudden get hit with a lawsuit for a slip and fall that occurred on the site a couple of years ago when you had ownership and percent of property. So absolutely, we always include liability. The only time we’ll ever remove it is if it’s specifically asked for by an investor during a proposal process. Clint: So, you just said something interesting in there. So if I bought this property and renovating it, and then I sell it, and then a year and a half later, somebody brings a claim, that they were injured on the property while they were working on it. You said that would be covered under your policy. Shawn: It would be covered – liability is a slippery slope, there’s a lot of gray areas, right? So, if the injury happened, and they were just maybe, maybe they were breaking and entering, or the house was left unsecured, and they fell down the steps and were injured, then yeah, then that type of exposure would be picked up under the premises liability coverage that was enforced at the time of the loss. If it’s a loss that was occurred under from general contractors negligent, or if you, as the investor, were actually doing the renovations yourself, and then a lawsuit was filed for faulty workmanship post-sale by the new owner, those are all types of stand-alone coverages that you have to purchase in addition to your premises liability. But yeah, a lot of those would be covered under the premises form. Clint: Got it. So there’s other policies you can or additions you can acquire when you’re purchasing a builders risk policy to cover that. So I’m going to give you an example. Just the other day, someone came into my office. They had rehabbed the property, they sold it, and it turns out there’s an issue with a catch basin in the basement. They have both greywater and rainwater that run into it, that pump it into the sewer lines. Supposedly, that’s not correct, and that needs to be changed. Would you have, would an insurance policy cover that type of change, that the contractor screwed up on or not? Shawn: The general contractors policy would pick that up, for faulty workmanship, right? So, your carrier, the premises liability, if needed, would provide you with defense clause, would go in and help you, you know, go against the general contractors policy, but that’s a GC exposure. So, you know, typically what we always recommend that our investors do, is when a general contractor comes on to your site just to bid on the property, to work on a property, they should be able to give you two pieces of information: their certificate of liability coverage that tells you their business is covered adequately, as well as their workers compensation coverage, if they have employees that are going to be on site as well. And you know, the certificates of liability give you a couple of cool pieces of information that you can use. It gives you the carrier that wrote the piece of business, as well as the agency. So if you want to go in and reach out to the agency each month and make sure their premium is paid, this will get a nice shiny certificate for a year showing coverage by paying a month or two of premium up front. You can do one of two things, and I always recommend the second, but the first one is you can call monthly to make sure their coverage is in good standing, or you can learn as an investor that those general contractors policies can work for us as investors, and we do that by adding ourselves as additional insured to their general contractors liability policy for the duration of time they’re working on your property. Those are always, those are usually free to do, or at most it costs $50 to endorse their policy, it’s well worth it to pay that money if they’re bellyaching about it. But that extends their liability coverage to you, if they do something negligent and you’re named in the lawsuit. And equally as important, it’s going to notify you as an additional insured prior to their policy cancelling or non-payment, or any other underwriting issues, and you can get out ahead of it and make sure that it’s right. Clint: Wow. Sounds like, kind of like buying a tail, then, on their policy. Nice. So how about if they, when someone comes to you and they have a corporation, because a lot of our flippers will teach them is it, either flip through a corporation, or better yet, flip through unlimited liability company that is owned by a corporation. Does that pose any difficulty for obtaining these policies? Does it matter? Shawn: It does for a lot of carriers, and a lot of carriers are limited to only being able to offer coverage in the personal name of the owner of the property. Again, knowing the market as we do, we’re all residential real estate investors ourselves, it made little to no sense for us to put that limitation on our investors, so we can actually accommodate for any type of name insured ownership entity, we can still have them all on one single schedule so we can leverage portfolio size and activity to keep an investors property rates and costs down at a time, because you’ve got common ownership or interest in the property, so LLCs, corporations, IRAs, trusts, you name it, it can all be bundled together through our program. Clint: Okay, so hold on, I’m going to back to that topic, because that’s really important for the listeners here. But just on the side of talking about insuring the LLC, for instance, if it owns the property. Why don’t local insurances agree to insure the LLC? Why do they only want to insure the individual? What’s their hang up there? Shawn: The best I can tell you is that it’s already been pre-negotiated through their re-insurance treaties and contracts, if they have, that’s just, they can’t accommodate for it. And those are the companies that you run into, like the State Farm, the Farmers, the Allstates of the world, they’re all, by the way, tremendous companies for what they do, and what they specialize in are home and auto and some life policies, some lower-risk type of deals homeowner policies. When you start getting into the investor world, where these are higher risk locations, your tenant’s more likely to burn your house down than you are, they always offer the coverage out of a sense of obligation to their existing clientele. They don’t have an appetite for it, and you can tell by the fact that they require you to insure a property through a very high evaluation per square foot, more than you’ll ever recover from in a loss. And they do that in an effort to garner, to recover enough money in the premium to offset the risk they’re taking on on a higher risk location. So I think it’s just not having the appetite for the risk, more than anything, along with the contracts that they’ve negotiated to be able to extend coverage to them. Clint: Interesting. Yeah, I can never figure that out, because it seems to me like you’re insuring me, I’m the owner of my LLC, it’s still the same insurance policy, who do you care or what does it matter who owns it, if there’s a claim made, you’ve still got to pay, so yeah. That makes sense. So, when you’re talking about this bundling, that’s something that’s really important, because the few that I’ve talked to, clients that have actually found that maybe their State Farm agent would offer them a policy, and I’ll give an example here. An investor comes into their State Farm agent and they have six limited liability companies, with one property in each LLC. The agent tells them, you need to have six separate individual policies, we can’t give you an umbrella policy over all of these, we have to do six separate agreements. And it just seems to run up the cost. Did I hear you to say that you can aggregate them together, it doesn’t matter how the properties are held in different LLCs, we can do it under one? Shawn: Absolutely. That’s exactly what we do when it comes to property, and the primary premises liability, your underlying liability, we’ll touch on umbrellas here just a second, but it’s a master schedule for a particular investor or investment group, and it allows you to add and delete locations from your schedule as need me, but think about it, me, myself as your agent, right, if you came to me and said hey, I’ve got one location, and I’ve blanketed it out to the 250 different, you know, carriers that I’m contracted with. One location, as opposed to ten locations, as opposed to a hundred, the more leverage I can get with that underwriter to drive your property rate down. So when we do a one-off policy for each location, you’re really at the mercy of the underwriter on what they want to assign as a property rate, and that can be based on the different areas of the country maybe that you’re investing in. could just be the mood they’re in that day. So, leveraging that, just it gives me more, you know, kind of fire power to go to, ammunition, we call it, and you go to the underwriter and drive those rates down for you. Clint: So, tell me this. So, who should you name then as the additional insured on your policy? Shawn: You know, it’s a good question, and we run across that all the time, and you can look at a couple of things if you have a lender on the deal. So, somebody, you know, whether it’s private or a larger institution, they’re usually going to require that you listed as additional insured, or the very least, certificate holder on your liability insurance. That way, again, they’re notified prior to your policy lapsing for non-payment or any other underwriting issue, on the off-chance that they’re named in a lawsuit, which would never happen and your liability cover, it would also extend to them. But you can, you know, many property management companies, if you’re dealing with a large property organization, would also require that you list their company on your liability as additional insured, so, again, you do something negligent, their liability coverage, or excuse me, your liability coverage extends to them. And you can do the same thing, vice versa, and be listed on their liability coverage, but really, anyone that has an ownership interest in the property, they can be potentially dragged into a lawsuit. Clint: Okay. So as far as if you had a corporation that’s the manager of an LLC, should it be named then as additional insured, as well? Shawn: No, the corporation would be listed as first name insured, though if the corporation’s managing other locations, if they don’t have ownership ventures then at that point, yes. That doesn’t stop, that doesn’t prevent them from having to seek out the correct liability coverage to cover the property management operations, as well. But, at least with the premises, they’d be covered without being listed as additional as well. Clint: Perfect. Okay, so you can do business in all fifty states, right? Shawn: Absolutely. Clint: And then, for our clients, all they have to do, we have that link that we’ve set up that drives them right to your page and then they can put in some information and then someone will contact them, is that how it works? Shawn: Yeah, and we do things a little bit different, as you well know, I’m sure. The last thing we do, especially if a new investor comes to us, and says hey, I need coverage but I don’t know what kind of coverage I need. You know, we’re not just going to send them a proposal and say, hey, take it or leave it. The most important thing that all these investors, all of our investor friends can know is that they have so many choices when it comes to property and liability insurance. So, what we do is we get one of my license advisors or myself to actually jump on a phone call with our prospect. In the first ten, fifteen minutes of the call, we want to listen to you. We want to know exactly what your business model is, we want to know what your appetite for risk is, what you’re okay self-insuring, what you’re not, what you do, God forbid, a total loss occurs. Would you rebuild the property, or would you clean the land up, sell it, and go buy something else like it? Are there lending insurance requirements that we need to comply with? And then, we’ll help structure your coverage, unique, whatever your package need on it. Clint: Perfect. All right. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to be on this podcast today, and I know that for sure we will end up giving hopefully more people brought over to you so they can have their insurance needs taken care of. So with that, Shawn, thanks a lot, looking forward talking to you in the future. Shawn: Thank you, Clint, have a good weekend. Clint: You too, bye.
Danielle & Bruce Barrett - Juicy Brucey’s Smokin’ Hot Meat - @juicybruceys - San Diego, California *Podcast recorded above the butcher shop at Valley Farm Market in Spring Valley, California. Summary Bruce and Danielle started to get the BBQ bug when they took over the snack bar at Valley Center High School for their son’s lacrosse team. Being stationed in San Diego during the Navy, Bruce knew he wanted to bring Danielle back to “retire” there. Coming to San Diego with no job but knowing they don’t want to do back breaking work anymore. Establishing the lacrosse team snack bar with the proper certifications opened the door for Danielle and Bruce to start catering and led them to their first competition at the Turf & Surf BBQ State Championship in Del Mar. Creating a living checklist for all the aspects of the business helps keep Juicy Brucey stay organized at their various events. Knowing what works for your business when taking catering clients and focusing on the jobs you can accommodate. Converting your significant other to steak, sushi, seafood, coleslaw. Breaking News: Juicy Brucey’s serving slow smoked meat during the Harrah’s Rincon Casino Summer Concert Series. Links Mentioned in this Episode: Juicy Brucey’s Smokin’ Hot Meat Facebook Instagram Twitter Shawn’s Business Book Recommendation - “McDonald’s: Behind The Arches RestaurantOwner.com @BBQWarStories Weekly Social Shout Out: @chicagofoodanddr Winner of a sexy new #BehindTheSmoke Mug. Be sure to tag @bbqwarstories in all your #behindthesmoke photos and interact with the podcast on social for your chance to win. Remember...if we can’t tag you then we can’t pimp you. Shareable Quotes From This Podcast: “That was the selling point for California. No humidity and no bugs. It’s gorgeous. Where else can you to the beach, the mountains and the desert all in the same day? ” {07:53} - Danielle “I’m loud. I grew up on 120 acres in Georgia, I don’t have volume control.” {12:15} - Danielle “We want our sauce to compliment the meat. We want our meat to stand on its own.” {16:25} - Bruce “I’m the detail oriented person. He does the magic with the meat” {22:47} - Danielle “We had to go through it and fail. If we can save anybody time that’s what we’re here for.” {32:44} - Shawn “You have to present yourself in a professional way that way when people want to get catered they know what they are getting” {38:21} - Derek “All of our customers end up being our friends. That’s our goal.” {47:51} - Danielle Get in Touch: Derek Marso - https://twitter.com/MarsoDerek Shawn Walchef - https://twitter.com/shawnpwalchef Cory Wagner - www.twitter.com/TheFifthPofmkt Behind The Smoke Media www.BehindTheSmokeMedia.com behindthesmoke@calicomfortbbq.com Facebook Page Behind The Smoke (Live Videos of the Podcast Recordings) Instagram - @bbqwarstories Twitter @bbqwarstories Valley Farm Market www.valleyfarmmarkets.com derek@valleyfarmmarkets.com Instagram @valleyfarmmarket Twitter @valleyfarmarket Facebook Page Valley Farm Market Cali Comfort BBQ www.calicomfortbbq.com shawn@calicomfortbbq.com Instagram @calicomfortbbq Twitter @calicomfort Facebook Page Cali Comfort BBQ YouTube Channel Cali Comfort BBQ Connect with Shawn P. Walchef on LinkedIn Honorable Mentions & BBQ Business Resources: Behind The Smoke Media BBQ Business Resources 3rd Annual Turf & Surf BBQ Championship @DelMarRacing #BETonBBQ Sunday, August 19, 2018 Kansas City Barbecue Society Sanctioned State Championship Event Limited to 70 BBQ Comp Teams Request our Sponsorship Deck: BETonBBQ@calicomfortbbq.com 9th Annual Spring Valley Tailgate & BBQ Festival #SVBBQFest California’s Largest Annual Amatuer Tailgate & BBQ Competition Date: Sunday, October 28, 2018 Request our Sponsorship Deck: SVBBQFest@calicomfortbbq.com
Shawn Blanc is a writer, small-business owner, productivity coach, and creative entrepreneur living in Kansas City with his wife and their three sons. Shawn has been teaching and learning about creativity, diligence, and focus for over a decade, and his online courses have helped thousands of people do their best creative work while learning to thrive in the midst of life's tensions. A while back, Shawn sent an email that caught my attention. He wrote about the importance of creating a customer avatar and developing a content strategy to connect with them and help them achieve their goals. I liked the email so much that I emailed him back and asked him to come on my show to talk about his journey to making a living through writing online and what he's learned about growing an audience. Shawn also shares my passion for productivity and deep focus; so much so that he's gathered 12 incredibly smart people for a free 5 day online summit about the power of focused life. In this episode, Shawn shares how he was able to make a full-time living by writing online, and we discuss how you can grow your audience by creating a customer avatar (your ideal listener) and creating content that addresses their needs and desires. Highlights, Takeaways & Quick Wins: Interview your customers to get a real life picture of your audience. Start selling products as early as possible. Your customer avatar is a real person that exists out there. Use the language of your customer avatar in your content to create a deep connection with them. Be in people's weekly cycle at a minimum. Your niche is going to draw your audience but your ancillary interests will keep people interested. Show up consistently to earn people's trust and create an anticipation of future value. Do guest-based podcasts to grow your audience. Reach people that are far outside of your social circle by connecting with the people you can connect with right now. Show Notes Aaron: Shawn Blanc is a writer/small business owner/productivity coach/creative entrepreneur living in Kansas City with his wife and their three sons, and Shawn is a member of our Community. He's been teaching and learning about creativity, diligence, and focus for over a decade now. His online courses have helped thousands of people do their best creative work while learning to thrive in the midst of life's tensions. A while back, Shawn sent an email that caught my attention. He was writing about the importance of creating a customer avatar, that's knowing who you're creating for and what you want to help them achieve, what kind of person you want to help them become. I thought it was really interesting, so I sent him an email right back. I said, “Shawn, do you want to come on the show to talk about this? I think podcasters need to hear about this idea of customer avatars and also content strategy.” Shawn agreed, and he also shares my passion for productivity and focus, so much so that he has gathered 12 incredibly smart people for a five day online summit about the power of a focused life, and that's going to be starting, I believe, as this episode comes out. If you're listening to this in your podcast player, it's starting today, I think. I'll give you that link later. In this episode, I want to talk with Shawn about why you as a podcaster need to create a customer avatar, know who you're creating for, develop a content strategy, and then also the benefits of deep focus, what we call deep work. A few small changes in your daily habits can lead to big improvements in your productivity and creative output. Shawn, that's one of the longer intros I've ever done. Thanks for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here. Shawn: Thanks, Aaron. I love it. Super excited to be here. Shawn Blanc Aaron: I think of you, Shawn, as a writer and as the creator of an online course called The Focus Course, which is great. You're so much more than that. Do you want to give everyone a quick introduction, how you got here and where you came from? I would also like to hear what your biggest struggles have been over the years of getting to the point where you're at right now. Shawn: Absolutely. I'm in Kansas City. Originally, I'm from Denver. I'm a Colorado guy at heart. I've been married for going on 12 years, and my wife and I have three boys. It's insane at our house. We used to call the first two the Twin Tornadoes, but we just had our third eight or nine weeks ago. Aaron: Congrats! Shawn: It's awesome. Love it. I love being a dad. I used to be a drummer. I know that we have a lot of musicians around here. Sean McCabe plays a little bit of music, I think. Aaron: Yeah, he used to write music, just like he used to do lettering. I still play drums. Shawn: I used to play drums for a large ministry here in Kansas City, and I ended up transitioning out of that. It's a long story, but I ended up becoming a marketing and creative director. I ran a team, an in-house design team, with about 17 people—web developers, print designers, web designers, writers, editors, project managers, whatever. We did a bunch of stuff. One of our huge things was that we would host a conference at the end of the year that I was running. 25,000 people would come out for that. I did that for several years, and then my wife and I got pregnant with our first kid. I was like, “I don't want to do this work as a dad.” Part of it was just super demanding. Anyone who has experienced working in the corporate design scene knows that it's a very demanding spot. Everything is urgent all the time. I was doing like 80 hours a week, and I really enjoyed it. I had a lot of fun, but I was like, “There's no way. I don't want to do 80 hours a week as a dad.” I had that, plus I had this little blog on the side, where I had been writing about marketing stuff. I felt like, “This would be a good opportunity to quit what I'm doing and take a leap, see if I can take my website full time. Could I blog for a living?” That was the thought. I was doing about $1,000 a month in advertising and some affiliate stuff. I figured that if I could give it 40 hours a week, I could get the revenue up to a spot where it could pay the bills. I figured that it could grow from there. Aaron: How old were you at this point? Shawn: I was just about 30, not quite 30, like 29, when I made that jump. I asked everyone that was reading on the site. I said, “I'm quitting. I'm going to do this thing full time.” I asked people if they would be interested in supporting me to write the site for a living. I was like, “If you like what I'm doing, I'll write more if you want to give me some money to do it.” I did this little membership drive. I was going to charge $3 a month for membership. I was doing a daily podcast as a perk of membership. Aaron: You aren't still doing that, are you? Shawn: It's on hiatus at the moment. We'll see. I'm going to be diving back into the podcast scene starting early 2017. I miss podcasting. It's fun. Aaron: You decided to ask people to support you, give you $3 a month, to go full time with your writing? Shawn: Basically. I figured if I could get 500 people, at $3 a month that's $1,500, plus the other $1,000 I was doing, and that would be $2,500 a month. That's not a ton, but I figured that would be enough to cover the bare necessities. I figured that things could grow from there. People signed up, and I hit the 500 person mark by the end of the month before I had even quit. I started my new job, April 4th 2011, basically fully funded as an independent blogger. Aaron: I bet that was exciting. Shawn: It was really exciting. I felt like I got this permission slip from my audience to go for it. As a creative person, sometimes you need that. Sometimes you want to be like, “Do you guys care? I'm here. I'm making this stuff.” A lot of the work we do as creative entrepreneurs is for your audience. I know that we're going to talk about this in a little bit, the customer avatar profile. It's for these people that you really want to serve. When you hear back from them and they go, “Hey, we like what you're doing. Let's keep the relationship going,” it's like having a DTR with your audience. There's something cool about that kind of permission slip moment. It's like when you sell your first product, or whatever it is. People are interested. You get your first positive review on iTunes or whatever. Obviously, there's going to be the junk that comes later, but whatever. Aaron: Some of the haters that come later? Shawn: You forget about that stuff and you keep moving on. Aaron: That's awesome. Asking for Money Aaron: When you think back, do you remember any big struggles or hurdles that you really had to overcome about that period in your life? Shawn: There were so many. It's hard to say, “If I could do it differently, I would do it this other way,” because who knows? If I had done things differently, maybe it wouldn't have turned out the way I thought it would. One of the biggest struggles for me was asking for money. It was a huge challenge related to the membership drive. I was asking folks to support me on a regular basis to write for a living. I was like, “Who am I? What kind of a dork says, ‘Give me money so I can blog for a living.'” Aaron: Nobody pays for things online anymore. Nobody wants to pay for writing. Shawn: Exactly. That was a huge challenge. It has continued to be a challenge for years. I have been doing this for almost six years now, full time. When I came out with my first book, it's called Delight is in the Details, and it was an eBook package thing. I did some interviews. I charged $29 for my book, and I felt like this huge hypocrite. It was this feeling of, “This is information. Information should be free on the internet. Why would anyone ever buy this?” I felt like there was no value in this thing that people would pay for. I was like, “I have to do it. I'm going to charge for it.” Aaron: Sorry to jump in, but at the time, did you really feel like $30 was a lot of money? Shawn: Oh my gosh. I woke up feeling sick to my stomach the day I was going to launch it. I was like, “I can't believe how much I'm asking for this.” Aaron: What did you think was going to happen? Shawn: I thought that people would buy it because they trusted me, and then they would read it and come and burn my house down because I had ripped them off so bad. I charged so much money for something. Aaron: It was your first time launching a product, right? Shawn: It was. It was my first product launch ever. It ended up bringing in like $5,000 in that first 48 hour launch window. It made $5,000 that first couple of days. In hindsight, it was this huge inflection point for me. I think I spent about 100 hours building the thing, made $5,000 from it in the first week, and I thought, “Woah, that was a great return on my time investment! Now I have this product that I can continue to sell.” Since then, in the last four or five years that I've sold it, I want to say that it's sold $50,000 over the years. That's awesome. There's something great about creating a product, and it changed a lot. Producing and selling a book changed my relationship with my audience. Now I'm creating products for them to buy. That initial hurdle was huge. $29 was so much money. I think that was probably the biggest struggle, of being able to properly identify how much value I'm providing people and to price it correctly. That's just hard. I think that's why you should start selling stuff as early as possible, because you have to learn. There isn't a formula for how much value you're providing and how much you should charge for it. You can't just plug your stuff into a worksheet and get a number back. You have to feel out the market, your market, your audience, your skill level. How much polish are you doing? How much depth of information are you providing? Whatever skill, service, or product it is you're providing, you have to learn how to make money and price your stuff! It's hard to do it when you're starting. The biggest challenging for me at first was becoming comfortable asking for money and learning to accurately price my products. Aaron: The other thing is that once you launched that book and got familiar with all that stuff, that was a stepping stone to your future products, your future books and courses, and everything else that you're doing. I'm sure, at that point, you felt like, “Okay. I've done this once before already. Now it's like riding a bike. I just need to get back on and keep peddling, keep going.” Shawn: Yeah, absolutely. It really was a huge stepping stone. One thing I loved about creating and launching a product was that there was a start and an end date to it. This thing has to ship. I worked on it, and I was done. I put it out there. Boom, now it's there. I'm done. It's out in the world. Obviously, you iterate on it. A year later, I added some new interviews. I added some new chapters. I created some videos. I remastered all of the audio for the audio book. Product Launch Hiccups Shawn: Super random story related to this. It was the relaunch of Delight is in the Details, a year after it had come out, and I put it out there. People are buying it during that relaunch period. I get an email from someone going, “I was just listening to the audio book, and the last chapter sounds like it's not edited correctly. Something is weird about the last chapter. You should check it out.” I recorded the audio book and edited it by myself. I go and I open up the audio book for the last chapter and I'm listening to it, and it is the original take that I did of the book. The way I did the audio book, I'm reading it into my microphone in GarageBand. If I goofed up in the middle of a paragraph, I would just take a pause, say, “Okay, again,” and then I would start talking again. That was my marker. The last chapter of the book was that track, the whole thing. The audio track should have been 10 or 12 minutes for that chapter, and it was 30 minutes because of all my edits, retakes, and pauses. The whole thing. What's worse is, it was there from the very beginning. For a year, I had been selling that thing. I was mortified. For a year, I had been selling my book with the last chapter all messed up, and I was mortified. Aaron: Nobody said anything?? Shawn: They didn't. Either no one listened to it, or when they listened to it, they just assumed… I don't even know. I was so mortified. There you go. What worse thing can happen? Earlier, I had been so concerned about selling something that people weren't going to consider valuable. Here's this huge, huge mistake. What a goof! Aaron: I need to remind everyone that this audiobook is called Delight is in the Details. Shawn: The irony, right? That was one of the selling points of the book, too. I was like, “If you buy this book, it's a case study in sweating the details itself. You'll see all the areas where I've sweated the details in this product.” Whatever. Oh man. I was mortified. Aaron: Thankfully, no one came and burned down your house, and it was over a year before anyone even said anything. A lot of us are so curious about people who do such good work, so when a mistake does happen, it's almost humanizing. It's like, “Now I can relate to this person, because they're not 100% on top of everything all the time, either, like I struggle with. I make a lot of mistakes, so it's kind of nice when you see a really awesome musician on stage mess up a part and then jump back into it. You're like, “Oh, they are humans, too.” That's really cool. Nobody burned your house down, thankfully. Shawn: That's why it's so helpful to ship early. You get stuff out the door and you start learning. I love it. Aaron: I tell people this a lot, too, when it comes to podcasts. If you're thinking about making a podcast, there are so many things you can tweak, improve, or work on forever, but it's so much better to say, “What's the minimum I have to do? I want to try and do a good job, but let's do this, ship it, and iterate and improve on it every single week.” If you don't ship something, you'll just pick at it and tweak it endlessly. Before you know it, it's been a year and a half, and you've got three or five episodes you recorded 18 months ago that you're still working on. In the meantime, nothing has happened. Start Moving Shawn: As well, we have this picture of what we want something to look like and what we want it to be, but we have zero experience. I like the analogy of those lifesize mazes. Especially around Halloween and Thanksgiving, there are those corn mazes. They're these giant things. Imagine someone standing at the entrance of this life size maze, staring at the entrance to it, and in their mind, trying to figure out how to get to the end so they can get straight to the end the fastest way possible without making any mistakes along the way. Impossible! Not going to happen. You have to go in the maze and go left to realize that you should have gone right. Then turn around. You have to go through the thing to make it through. I like the phrase, “Action brings clarity.” Action brings clarity. You're waiting for clarity before taking action, and it's not going to happen—you have to start moving. You just have to get going and you adjust course as you go. You start to realize what you should major on and what you shouldn't. Aaron: That's an incredible analogy. I'm totally going to use that in the future now. It's perfect. You sit there and you imagine yourself being at the end of the maze. That's where you see a bunch of other people. Your friends have gone through the maze and they're at the end, so you're like, “I have to get to the end fast. I can't make any mistakes. I can't take a wrong turn, because that's where all my friends are, and that's where I want to be.” You do have to go through it. That's really incredible. Creating a Customer Avatar Aaron: Shawn, you sent out an email and you were talking about this. I want you to explain how you think about customer avatars, and then if you did something like that for yourself when you were just starting, or if this is something that evolved over time. Customer avatar and content strategy, go! Shawn: This is great. When I first started as a writer, I was doing ShawnBlanc.net. My entire job was publishing articles and links on my website. I didn't have a customer avatar or a customer profile, what I had was an ideal reader. I think, in terms of podcasting, it's very similar. Who's your ideal listener? For me, I actually had a person who was my ideal reader, who's name was Shawn Spurdee. He was a really good friend of mine. He and I had become friends through the blogging Twitter-sphere back in the day. When I wrote articles or links, I had him in mind. I thought, “Is this something he would find interesting? Is there a story in here that he's going to want to read? Is this a link to something he would like?” You had that ideal reader. John Gruber wrote about this for his site, Daring Fireball. He talked about his ideal reader, and he called it “a second version of himself.” He goes, “This person is interested in all the same things I'm interested in, and he cares about what I care about. All the design decisions I make on the site, all the articles I choose to link to, the stories I choose to tell, all of that stuff is with this ideal reader/listener in mind.” It was instrumental for me to have an “ideal reader” for all of the work I was doing. You know who you're trying to target. I'm still the writer for sure, but we've switched a lot more of our focus onto direct sales, building a customer base, and selling products to our audience. I still don't have that ideal reader. Who am I writing this for? Who is this product being created for? It has gone beyond just an individual person that I know. We did a customer profiling thing. I have a guy who works for me full time, and his name is Isaac. We took a couple of big, giant sticky pad things, two feet by three feet, they're huge, these giant sticky notes. Aaron: Where do you get those? Can you get those on Amazon? Shawn: You can get a lawnmower on Amazon, so I'm sure you can get sticky notes. We got ours at Office Max, an Office Depot kind of thing. It's weird. You drive to this store, and you can walk in, and they sell products on their shelves. You have to pick it up with your hand and drive it home yourself. Aaron: It seems like a waste of time. Shawn: For this customer profiling session or whatever, basically, we had these four quadrants. What do they think? What do they feel? What do they want? What do they say? Something like that. You're trying to get this picture of this person. Who is this person? What are the things that they say? Like, “I love my family. I like to watch Netflix.” Whatever. Aaron: “I want to learn how to make a podcast.” Shawn: Exactly. It's not just business, it's just life. What are the kind of phrases they might say? If you ask them what they care about, what things would they list? What are their pain points that they're feeling in life? For us, creating this customer avatar, we named him Brian. We found a random picture of somebody and stuck it up there to begin to humanize the person. Your customer avatar is a real person that exists out there. We talked about, “Here's Brian,” and we came up with this stuff. Brian has a job that he kind of likes, but he's got these other creative ideas that he really wants to pursue. Maybe he wants to take it full time. Maybe not. That's not really the most important thing for him. The most important thing for him is getting his best creative work out there and being able to do it and feel like he's making progress on the areas of life that matter to him. He's also a dad and a husband, and he cares about his family quite a bit. He cares about his kids. He still wants to be available for them. When he comes home from work, he's really tired, so the evenings don't feel like a good time to do his creative work, but he's not a morning person either, so he doesn't know when he's going to get the time. These are some of the scenarios, the stories, that begin to emerge as you begin to write stuff about this person. What are the pain points that they feel? When they look around, what do they see? What kind of car does Brian drive? Does he like minivans? Does he have a minivan? How many kids does he actually have? You really kind of start to come up with this stuff, and there's a lot you can do to get to a higher level of doing these customer profiles. You can actually do interviews with your customer base. Aaron: I do this! I try to meet people and talk to them, especially when it comes to podcasting. When you interview your customers, you can actually begin to get a real life picture of your real life audience. Creating an Empathy Map Shawn: There's this thing that we did, an empathy map, and you take the empathy map to create your customer profile. We ran this survey to our email list, and we ran a separate one to our customer list. It was, “When it comes to focus, what's your single greatest challenge?” It was just this open-ended question where people could write stuff down. Some people say, “Time.” Or, “I can't focus. I'm distracted.” Then you get some people who go, “I'm trying to build my photography portfolio website on the side because I love photography and I'm trying to grow it. I'm working this other job, and when I come home in the evenings, family is first. I spend time with family, so by the time the kids are in bed, I've only got about an hour left in the day. I'm so tired, and I don't want to spend time trying to work on my photography website, so I don't know where to get started.” The person who gives an in depth answer to the challenge like that, vs. someone who just says “time”, they're really in touch with their pain point. There's a book called Ask by Ryan Leveque, and you can find it on Amazon. He teases out, “You ask these questions, and you separate the people with the longest answers. You put their answers up at the top.” You cut the list at 20%. The bottom 80%, forget about those people, and look at the top 20%, these “hyper-responders.” What are their challenges? What are their pain points? Aaron, you could do this. You could say, “When it comes to building a podcast, what is your single greatest challenge?” You'll probably have someone who says, “Building my list.” Or, “Building my audience.” Or, “Technical stuff.” But then you might have someone who really gives this heartfelt, in-depth answer. If someone gives you a heartfelt, in-depth answer, they're hungry for a solution. That person is going to pay for a solution. That person is going to digest this, and when you give them something, they're going to check it out. Look for these hyper-responders and cater your response to them. That's what we did. That's how we figured out that our biggest pain points for people who go through the Focus Course are one of four primary buckets, so to speak. It's time management, getting traction on their business or side projects, finding clarity on what's important to them and what they should be doing about it, and a lot of people also feel overwhelmed by all that's already happening in life. Or, they look at the thing that they're trying to make progress on, and they feel overwhelmed. They don't even know where to start. Really, all of these things feed off of each other. When one is in a rough spot, the others start to be in a rough spot as well. We go, “Okay, these are the main challenges we're going to address as part of the Focus Course, in all of our writing. This is it.” The people that fit within these four buckets are the ones who are willing to pay for a solution. Use Your Audience's Language Shawn: Read the actual responses, the answers, and take the language that people are saying and use it in your articles. Answer their actual questions in podcast episodes. You use it in your marketing language. The landing page for your product, or your podcast, or your sign up, or whatever—use the actual language of your hyper-responder customers. Now, not only are you listening to them and you know who that ideal customer is, but you're also even speaking their language. A) it's going to be cool because hopefully you'll do more sales, but B) you'll actually get to connect with the people you want to connect with. That's the whole point. That's why we're here. That's one of the huge benefits of having these customer profiles. It can help you stay focused on who you're trying to talk to and what it is you're trying to talk about, to help them. Aaron: That's mindblowing. That's fantastic. At the core, I kind of know this stuff, but hearing you explain it made it even more clear to me. I love that. I want to take it in this direction. How to Grow Your Audience & Create Deeper Connections Aaron: One of the most common questions I get about podcasting is about growing an audience. It's always, “How do I get more attention? How do I get more listeners? How do I grow an audience?” I love what you said right here. Use the language of your customer avatar in your content to create a deep connection with them. That's where listeners come from. So many people think that they'll magically get 100,000 people to listen to their podcast, and they won't have any idea of who these people are. They're nameless, faceless avatars on the internet. No! Especially in the beginning, you start small. You develop relationships with people who care passionately about the thing that you're talking about. By investing in them, getting to know them, and asking them questions—regardless of whether you're doing some kind of business thing or not—by just talking to them and getting to know their language, that's how you're going to resonate with them and even more people. What methods have you found effective for growing an audience and developing deeper relationships? Shawn: I think that's a great question. Everyone wants to know the answer to this. For me, there are three primary keys to growing an audience: Consistency Honesty and transparency Relationships. 1. Consistency Shawn: Consistency is core. This is a phrase in the seanwes Community, and it's a phrase I like to use, and that's this: show up every day. That's consistency. We're just people of habit. The internet is a thing of habit, so you have to have that consistency where you're in people's regular cycles. Sean McCabe talks about this a lot. You want to be in people's weekly cycle at a minimum. Show up on a regular basis. Also, that's how people know you're going to be there. There's something about that consistency. One of the ways you develop an audience where people are tracking with you and paying attention when you're showing up consistently. When you show up consistently, not only do you earn people's trust, but you create an anticipation of future value. You want to have that. That's huge. People are like, “I want to know what's next. I want to follow this story and be here.” Consistency is huge. 2. Honesty & Transparency Shawn: This comes out in a lot of ways. In some ways, you want to have the transparency like Nathan Barry talks about, to “teach what you know.” Share what you know. Also, there's a human element, passion and persona, who you are as an individual. Humanizing yourself is so helpful. We don't want to connect with brands, we want to connect with people. As indie entrepreneurs or indie creative folks, when you are running your own thing, you are a brand but you're also a person. You've got to keep the person aspect of it, the human aspect of it, you have to keep it there. Allow your mistakes to show through. Allow your passions to show through. For me, at ShawnBlanc.net, I cut my teeth and grew my audience originally by writing about Apple stuff. I wrote tons of product reviews. It was super nerdy, gadgety stuff. I would also write about coffee, camera gear, books I was reading, music, and things like that. Aaron: Stuff you cared about. Shawn: Exactly. Other interests that were related to Apple gear because it was my site, and I can write about whatever I want. That humanized the work that I was doing. So many people came to my site because of the Apple stuff but they stayed because of the coffee stuff. Your focus, your niche, is going to draw your audience, but your ancillary interests will keep people interested. You're a real person with real interests who is not just this robot spinning off the same thing all the time. 3. Relationships Shawn: This is huge. I stink at it, but I'm trying to reply to emails. When people email me, replying back to them. Also, here's a prime example, having me on your show, Aaron. The practicality of it is that when this show goes live, I'm going to tweet about it. I'm going to link to it. I'm going to point the people that track with me over to your stuff. That's a way for you to grow your audience, but it's also a way for me to grow my audience. Your listeners, a lot of people, don't know who I am. Now, hopefully, some of them will come check me out and sign up for our stuff. There's a really cool dynamic here of introducing your group to someone else. Hopefully, that person will also introduce their audience to who you are. Doing guest-based podcasts is an awesome way to grow your audience. I did some back in the day, when I was first starting my site. I did interviews, blog interviews. The whole thing was conducted over email, and it was just this back and forth email. I did one with Daniel Jalkut, who used to work at Apple and then started Red Sweater. He has the best blogging app on the planet for Mac, MarsEdit. It's a super great app. I emailed him and did an interview with him. I did an interview with John Grubar. I did an interview with Brett Simmons, all these people who are super famous Apple people. I'm going back and forth with these guys and posting their interviews. They link to me on my site, and I get this influx of new readers. Or you find software that's awesome. I would do super in-depth reviews about this stuff, and then people would link to those reviews. Honoring other people, connecting with other people, and doing stuff that's worth talking about. Then the word will spread. That consistency, being transparent and honest about who you are, having that passion and that human dynamic to the work that you do, and then just trying to connect with other people. Do things that people are going to want to talk about. Another example is the summit that we're doing, the Focus Summit. I'm punching way above my weight class here with some of these folks, and it's a chance to hopefully get some of their audience to discover the work that we're doing and visa versa. I hope that people who sign up for this summit will get introduced to some new people and that they'll find some incredible resources. It's just fun. We're all just folks trying to do our best work, right? Aaron: Absolutely. I love that. That's one of the best answers for building an audience that I've ever heard. The Importance of Investing One-on-One Time in Your Listeners Aaron: The thing that I'm working on, and I just want to share this, is investing more time in my listeners. It's hard sometimes, because you can spend all the time in the world talking to people on the internet, as I'm sure you know, Shawn. I'm sure people are constantly emailing you, asking for your thoughts, your advice, and your feedback on stuff, and you try to stay really focused. Something I've wanted to do is spend a little bit of time every day, like on Twitter, reaching out and telling people that I appreciate what they do. Or, if somebody emails me, having a conversation. In depth, giving them 15 or 20 minutes of focus time to reply, and even asking them questions. Someone says, “Hey, thanks for doing your show. I really appreciate this thing.” I'll reply and say, “Thank you so much. How is your podcasting journey going? What are you working on right now? What do you want to get better at?” Some great conversations have come out of that. I'm trying to invest a little bit more in my listeners. I'm at the point now where I've started inviting some of them on the show. “Hey, you sound like you'd be a cool person to talk about podcasting with. Would you like to come on the show?” It just spreads. It's the building of community that will eventually attract people to you. When I started, I had 30 or 40 friends, maybe a couple hundred followers. Every new person that finds my show and gets to know me as a person, who respects the work I do, they might have 200 people that follow them, and they share my show with those people. It just spreads out from there. It becomes this big net. You can eventually reach people that are far outside of your social circle just by connecting with the people you can connect with right now. Let them do the work of sharing your stuff with their people, too. Shawn: Yeah, exactly. Focus Summit & Products Aaron: That's fantastic. We're getting close to the end of the episode. We need to wrap it up. I told everyone in the beginning that I would get you to talk about this Focus Summit that you've got coming up. What's the deal with this? Tell us a little bit about that. Shawn: The summit! I'm so excited about this. We have Jocelyn Glei, who just wrote this book called Unsubscribe, which is a fantastic book. It's about email distractions and stuff like that. We've got Josh Kaufman, who wrote The Personal MBA. Anyone who is trying to do anything related to business, you need to read The Personal MBA. It is a bargain. Aaron: So much good advice. Shawn: It's like a $35 book, and that book is so packed. Excellent, excellent stuff. Sean McCabe is on it, and Sean and I talk about how quantity leads to quality, which ties right into this stuff on showing up every day. The summit is going to be really, really cool. When this podcast drops, the summit is going to be kicking off. Here's the link: The Creative Focus Summit. After the summit wraps up, we're opening up registration for our Focus Course. That has become my flagship product. It changed everything for me, in terms of what I was focusing on. I came up with this course as the next product in a series. I had done Delight is in the Details, and I wanted to write a book about diligence and productivity. I wrote the book, and then, long story short, I realized that it needed to be a course. I felt like the way that I wanted to get these ideas across wasn't a book that someone would read, highlight, think was cool, and then puts back on their shelf and returns to life as usual. I want something that's really going to effect change. I knew that a book would probably go farther, broader, and reach a total number of more people. I would rather fewer people go through the course but have a higher number of them really get real impact. For me, the book ended up turning into the Focus Course, and we've had close to 1,300 people go through it. It's basically productivity training for creative people and entrepreneurs and leaders. It's way, way more than that. It's not tips and tricks. It's what I call “meaningful productivity.” It actually gets to the core, the heart, and the foundation. What do you really care about? How are you really spending your time? This is not a “Five Life Hacks That Will Help Me Go Through My Email Inbox Better.” It's hard questions that will make me challenge my assumptions about my family, my work, my down time, and my rest time. Anyone that thinks that taking a nap will improve productivity, the Focus Course is for you. Aaron: That's me! You have to have a healthy life to do your best work. Shawn: You can't sprint this. This is a marathon, so you have to have that breathing room. The Focus Course opens up after the summit is over, and I'm super excited about it. We're going to have a whole group of people cruising through in January. We're doing a winter class for it. We've got some forums, so everyone can share their progress. It's going to be a blast. I'm really excited about it. The summit is free, and the Focus Course itself is going to be something we charge for, obviously. Aaron: You have to charge for things, or else people won't take it seriously. Shawn: It's so true. Aaron: You have to invest. Shawn: That's something else. We didn't get into that earlier when we were talking about the pricing stuff, but that's another reason to charge for your work. Someone is actually going to have skin in the game. They're going to find value for it. Aaron: They have to ask themselves, “Okay. Do I think this is going to help me enough in my life journey to actually put money towards it?” If they answer that question for themselves and then make the choice to give you that money, they are going to say, “I told myself, I believe, that this is worth my time, so I need to invest my time in it.” Shawn: Exactly. Very true. Aaron: Where should people go if they want to follow you, connect with you, or ask you questions? Shawn: Twitter is a great spot. I'm @shawnblanc on Twitter.
Shawn Blanc is a writer, small-business owner, productivity coach, and creative entrepreneur living in Kansas City with his wife and their three sons. Shawn has been teaching and learning about creativity, diligence, and focus for over a decade, and his online courses have helped thousands of people do their best creative work while learning to thrive in the midst of life’s tensions. A while back, Shawn sent an email that caught my attention. He wrote about the importance of creating a customer avatar and developing a content strategy to connect with them and help them achieve their goals. I liked the email so much that I emailed him back and asked him to come on my show to talk about his journey to making a living through writing online and what he’s learned about growing an audience. Shawn also shares my passion for productivity and deep focus; so much so that he’s gathered 12 incredibly smart people for a free 5 day online summit about the power of focused life. In this episode, Shawn shares how he was able to make a full-time living by writing online, and we discuss how you can grow your audience by creating a customer avatar (your ideal listener) and creating content that addresses their needs and desires.Highlights, Takeaways & Quick Wins:Interview your customers to get a real life picture of your audience.Start selling products as early as possible.Your customer avatar is a real person that exists out there.Use the language of your customer avatar in your content to create a deep connection with them.Be in people’s weekly cycle at a minimum.Your niche is going to draw your audience but your ancillary interests will keep people interested.Show up consistently to earn people’s trust and create an anticipation of future value.Do guest-based podcasts to grow your audience.Reach people that are far outside of your social circle by connecting with the people you can connect with right now.Show NotesAaron: Shawn Blanc is a writer/small business owner/productivity coach/creative entrepreneur living in Kansas City with his wife and their three sons, and Shawn is a member of our Community. He’s been teaching and learning about creativity, diligence, and focus for over a decade now.His online courses have helped thousands of people do their best creative work while learning to thrive in the midst of life’s tensions. A while back, Shawn sent an email that caught my attention. He was writing about the importance of creating a customer avatar, that’s knowing who you’re creating for and what you want to help them achieve, what kind of person you want to help them become.I thought it was really interesting, so I sent him an email right back. I said, “Shawn, do you want to come on the show to talk about this? I think podcasters need to hear about this idea of customer avatars and also content strategy.” Shawn agreed, and he also shares my passion for productivity and focus, so much so that he has gathered 12 incredibly smart people for a five day online summit about the power of a focused life, and that’s going to be starting, I believe, as this episode comes out.If you’re listening to this in your podcast player, it’s starting today, I think. I’ll give you that link later. In this episode, I want to talk with Shawn about why you as a podcaster need to create a customer avatar, know who you’re creating for, develop a content strategy, and then also the benefits of deep focus, what we call deep work.A few small changes in your daily habits can lead to big improvements in your productivity and creative output.Shawn, that’s one of the longer intros I’ve ever done. Thanks for joining me today. I really appreciate you being here.Shawn: Thanks, Aaron. I love it. Super excited to be here.Shawn BlancAaron: I think of you, Shawn, as a writer and as the creator of an online course called The Focus Course, which is great. You’re so much more than that. Do you want to give everyone a quick introduction, how you got here and where you came from? I would also like to hear what your biggest struggles have been over the years of getting to the point where you’re at right now.Shawn: Absolutely. I’m in Kansas City. Originally, I’m from Denver. I’m a Colorado guy at heart. I’ve been married for going on 12 years, and my wife and I have three boys. It’s insane at our house. We used to call the first two the Twin Tornadoes, but we just had our third eight or nine weeks ago.Aaron: Congrats!Shawn: It’s awesome. Love it. I love being a dad. I used to be a drummer. I know that we have a lot of musicians around here. Sean McCabe plays a little bit of music, I think.Aaron: Yeah, he used to write music, just like he used to do lettering. I still play drums.Shawn: I used to play drums for a large ministry here in Kansas City, and I ended up transitioning out of that. It’s a long story, but I ended up becoming a marketing and creative director. I ran a team, an in-house design team, with about 17 people—web developers, print designers, web designers, writers, editors, project managers, whatever. We did a bunch of stuff. One of our huge things was that we would host a conference at the end of the year that I was running.25,000 people would come out for that. I did that for several years, and then my wife and I got pregnant with our first kid. I was like, “I don’t want to do this work as a dad.” Part of it was just super demanding. Anyone who has experienced working in the corporate design scene knows that it’s a very demanding spot.Everything is urgent all the time. I was doing like 80 hours a week, and I really enjoyed it. I had a lot of fun, but I was like, “There’s no way. I don’t want to do 80 hours a week as a dad.” I had that, plus I had this little blog on the side, where I had been writing about marketing stuff. I felt like, “This would be a good opportunity to quit what I’m doing and take a leap, see if I can take my website full time. Could I blog for a living?” That was the thought.I was doing about $1,000 a month in advertising and some affiliate stuff. I figured that if I could give it 40 hours a week, I could get the revenue up to a spot where it could pay the bills. I figured that it could grow from there.Aaron: How old were you at this point?Shawn: I was just about 30, not quite 30, like 29, when I made that jump. I asked everyone that was reading on the site. I said, “I’m quitting. I’m going to do this thing full time.” I asked people if they would be interested in supporting me to write the site for a living. I was like, “If you like what I’m doing, I’ll write more if you want to give me some money to do it.” I did this little membership drive. I was going to charge $3 a month for membership. I was doing a daily podcast as a perk of membership.Aaron: You aren’t still doing that, are you?Shawn: It’s on hiatus at the moment. We’ll see. I’m going to be diving back into the podcast scene starting early 2017. I miss podcasting. It’s fun.Aaron: You decided to ask people to support you, give you $3 a month, to go full time with your writing?Shawn: Basically. I figured if I could get 500 people, at $3 a month that’s $1,500, plus the other $1,000 I was doing, and that would be $2,500 a month. That’s not a ton, but I figured that would be enough to cover the bare necessities. I figured that things could grow from there. People signed up, and I hit the 500 person mark by the end of the month before I had even quit.I started my new job, April 4th 2011, basically fully funded as an independent blogger.Aaron: I bet that was exciting.Shawn: It was really exciting. I felt like I got this permission slip from my audience to go for it. As a creative person, sometimes you need that. Sometimes you want to be like, “Do you guys care? I’m here. I’m making this stuff.” A lot of the work we do as creative entrepreneurs is for your audience. I know that we’re going to talk about this in a little bit, the customer avatar profile. It’s for these people that you really want to serve. When you hear back from them and they go, “Hey, we like what you’re doing. Let’s keep the relationship going,” it’s like having a DTR with your audience.There’s something cool about that kind of permission slip moment. It’s like when you sell your first product, or whatever it is. People are interested. You get your first positive review on iTunes or whatever. Obviously, there’s going to be the junk that comes later, but whatever.Aaron: Some of the haters that come later?Shawn: You forget about that stuff and you keep moving on.Aaron: That’s awesome.Asking for MoneyAaron: When you think back, do you remember any big struggles or hurdles that you really had to overcome about that period in your life?Shawn: There were so many. It’s hard to say, “If I could do it differently, I would do it this other way,” because who knows? If I had done things differently, maybe it wouldn’t have turned out the way I thought it would. One of the biggest struggles for me was asking for money. It was a huge challenge related to the membership drive. I was asking folks to support me on a regular basis to write for a living. I was like, “Who am I? What kind of a dork says, ‘Give me money so I can blog for a living.'”Aaron: Nobody pays for things online anymore. Nobody wants to pay for writing.Shawn: Exactly. That was a huge challenge. It has continued to be a challenge for years. I have been doing this for almost six years now, full time. When I came out with my first book, it’s called Delight is in the Details, and it was an eBook package thing. I did some interviews.I charged $29 for my book, and I felt like this huge hypocrite.It was this feeling of, “This is information. Information should be free on the internet. Why would anyone ever buy this?” I felt like there was no value in this thing that people would pay for. I was like, “I have to do it. I’m going to charge for it.”Aaron: Sorry to jump in, but at the time, did you really feel like $30 was a lot of money?Shawn: Oh my gosh. I woke up feeling sick to my stomach the day I was going to launch it. I was like, “I can’t believe how much I’m asking for this.”Aaron: What did you think was going to happen?Shawn: I thought that people would buy it because they trusted me, and then they would read it and come and burn my house down because I had ripped them off so bad. I charged so much money for something.Aaron: It was your first time launching a product, right?Shawn: It was. It was my first product launch ever. It ended up bringing in like $5,000 in that first 48 hour launch window. It made $5,000 that first couple of days. In hindsight, it was this huge inflection point for me. I think I spent about 100 hours building the thing, made $5,000 from it in the first week, and I thought, “Woah, that was a great return on my time investment! Now I have this product that I can continue to sell.”Since then, in the last four or five years that I’ve sold it, I want to say that it’s sold $50,000 over the years. That’s awesome. There’s something great about creating a product, and it changed a lot.Producing and selling a book changed my relationship with my audience.Now I’m creating products for them to buy.That initial hurdle was huge. $29 was so much money. I think that was probably the biggest struggle, of being able to properly identify how much value I’m providing people and to price it correctly. That’s just hard. I think that’s why you should start selling stuff as early as possible, because you have to learn. There isn’t a formula for how much value you’re providing and how much you should charge for it.You can’t just plug your stuff into a worksheet and get a number back. You have to feel out the market, your market, your audience, your skill level. How much polish are you doing? How much depth of information are you providing? Whatever skill, service, or product it is you’re providing, you have to learn how to make money and price your stuff! It’s hard to do it when you’re starting.The biggest challenging for me at first was becoming comfortable asking for money and learning to accurately price my products.Aaron: The other thing is that once you launched that book and got familiar with all that stuff, that was a stepping stone to your future products, your future books and courses, and everything else that you’re doing. I’m sure, at that point, you felt like, “Okay. I’ve done this once before already. Now it’s like riding a bike. I just need to get back on and keep peddling, keep going.”Shawn: Yeah, absolutely. It really was a huge stepping stone. One thing I loved about creating and launching a product was that there was a start and an end date to it. This thing has to ship. I worked on it, and I was done. I put it out there. Boom, now it’s there. I’m done. It’s out in the world. Obviously, you iterate on it. A year later, I added some new interviews. I added some new chapters. I created some videos. I remastered all of the audio for the audio book.Product Launch HiccupsShawn: Super random story related to this. It was the relaunch of Delight is in the Details, a year after it had come out, and I put it out there. People are buying it during that relaunch period. I get an email from someone going, “I was just listening to the audio book, and the last chapter sounds like it’s not edited correctly. Something is weird about the last chapter. You should check it out.”I recorded the audio book and edited it by myself. I go and I open up the audio book for the last chapter and I’m listening to it, and it is the original take that I did of the book. The way I did the audio book, I’m reading it into my microphone in GarageBand. If I goofed up in the middle of a paragraph, I would just take a pause, say, “Okay, again,” and then I would start talking again. That was my marker. The last chapter of the book was that track, the whole thing.The audio track should have been 10 or 12 minutes for that chapter, and it was 30 minutes because of all my edits, retakes, and pauses. The whole thing. What’s worse is, it was there from the very beginning. For a year, I had been selling that thing. I was mortified. For a year, I had been selling my book with the last chapter all messed up, and I was mortified.Aaron: Nobody said anything??Shawn: They didn’t. Either no one listened to it, or when they listened to it, they just assumed… I don’t even know. I was so mortified. There you go. What worse thing can happen? Earlier, I had been so concerned about selling something that people weren’t going to consider valuable. Here’s this huge, huge mistake. What a goof!Aaron: I need to remind everyone that this audiobook is called Delight is in the Details.Shawn: The irony, right? That was one of the selling points of the book, too. I was like, “If you buy this book, it’s a case study in sweating the details itself. You’ll see all the areas where I’ve sweated the details in this product.” Whatever. Oh man. I was mortified.Aaron: Thankfully, no one came and burned down your house, and it was over a year before anyone even said anything. A lot of us are so curious about people who do such good work, so when a mistake does happen, it’s almost humanizing. It’s like, “Now I can relate to this person, because they’re not 100% on top of everything all the time, either, like I struggle with. I make a lot of mistakes, so it’s kind of nice when you see a really awesome musician on stage mess up a part and then jump back into it. You’re like, “Oh, they are humans, too.” That’s really cool. Nobody burned your house down, thankfully.Shawn: That’s why it’s so helpful to ship early. You get stuff out the door and you start learning. I love it.Aaron: I tell people this a lot, too, when it comes to podcasts. If you’re thinking about making a podcast, there are so many things you can tweak, improve, or work on forever, but it’s so much better to say, “What’s the minimum I have to do? I want to try and do a good job, but let’s do this, ship it, and iterate and improve on it every single week.”If you don’t ship something, you'll just pick at it and tweak it endlessly.Before you know it, it’s been a year and a half, and you’ve got three or five episodes you recorded 18 months ago that you’re still working on. In the meantime, nothing has happened.Start MovingShawn: As well, we have this picture of what we want something to look like and what we want it to be, but we have zero experience. I like the analogy of those lifesize mazes. Especially around Halloween and Thanksgiving, there are those corn mazes. They’re these giant things. Imagine someone standing at the entrance of this life size maze, staring at the entrance to it, and in their mind, trying to figure out how to get to the end so they can get straight to the end the fastest way possible without making any mistakes along the way.Impossible! Not going to happen. You have to go in the maze and go left to realize that you should have gone right. Then turn around. You have to go through the thing to make it through. I like the phrase, “Action brings clarity.”Action brings clarity.You’re waiting for clarity before taking action, and it’s not going to happen—you have to start moving.You just have to get going and you adjust course as you go. You start to realize what you should major on and what you shouldn’t.Aaron: That’s an incredible analogy. I’m totally going to use that in the future now. It’s perfect. You sit there and you imagine yourself being at the end of the maze. That’s where you see a bunch of other people. Your friends have gone through the maze and they’re at the end, so you’re like, “I have to get to the end fast. I can’t make any mistakes. I can’t take a wrong turn, because that’s where all my friends are, and that’s where I want to be.” You do have to go through it. That’s really incredible.Creating a Customer AvatarAaron: Shawn, you sent out an email and you were talking about this. I want you to explain how you think about customer avatars, and then if you did something like that for yourself when you were just starting, or if this is something that evolved over time. Customer avatar and content strategy, go!Shawn: This is great. When I first started as a writer, I was doing ShawnBlanc.net. My entire job was publishing articles and links on my website. I didn’t have a customer avatar or a customer profile, what I had was an ideal reader. I think, in terms of podcasting, it’s very similar. Who’s your ideal listener? For me, I actually had a person who was my ideal reader, who’s name was Shawn Spurdee.He was a really good friend of mine. He and I had become friends through the blogging Twitter-sphere back in the day. When I wrote articles or links, I had him in mind. I thought, “Is this something he would find interesting? Is there a story in here that he’s going to want to read? Is this a link to something he would like?” You had that ideal reader. John Gruber wrote about this for his site, Daring Fireball.He talked about his ideal reader, and he called it “a second version of himself.” He goes, “This person is interested in all the same things I’m interested in, and he cares about what I care about. All the design decisions I make on the site, all the articles I choose to link to, the stories I choose to tell, all of that stuff is with this ideal reader/listener in mind.”It was instrumental for me to have an “ideal reader” for all of the work I was doing.You know who you’re trying to target. I’m still the writer for sure, but we’ve switched a lot more of our focus onto direct sales, building a customer base, and selling products to our audience. I still don’t have that ideal reader. Who am I writing this for? Who is this product being created for? It has gone beyond just an individual person that I know. We did a customer profiling thing. I have a guy who works for me full time, and his name is Isaac. We took a couple of big, giant sticky pad things, two feet by three feet, they’re huge, these giant sticky notes.Aaron: Where do you get those? Can you get those on Amazon?Shawn: You can get a lawnmower on Amazon, so I’m sure you can get sticky notes. We got ours at Office Max, an Office Depot kind of thing. It’s weird. You drive to this store, and you can walk in, and they sell products on their shelves. You have to pick it up with your hand and drive it home yourself.Aaron: It seems like a waste of time.Shawn: For this customer profiling session or whatever, basically, we had these four quadrants. What do they think? What do they feel? What do they want? What do they say? Something like that. You’re trying to get this picture of this person. Who is this person? What are the things that they say? Like, “I love my family. I like to watch Netflix.” Whatever.Aaron: “I want to learn how to make a podcast.”Shawn: Exactly. It’s not just business, it’s just life. What are the kind of phrases they might say? If you ask them what they care about, what things would they list? What are their pain points that they’re feeling in life? For us, creating this customer avatar, we named him Brian. We found a random picture of somebody and stuck it up there to begin to humanize the person.Your customer avatar is a real person that exists out there.We talked about, “Here’s Brian,” and we came up with this stuff. Brian has a job that he kind of likes, but he’s got these other creative ideas that he really wants to pursue. Maybe he wants to take it full time. Maybe not. That’s not really the most important thing for him. The most important thing for him is getting his best creative work out there and being able to do it and feel like he’s making progress on the areas of life that matter to him. He’s also a dad and a husband, and he cares about his family quite a bit.He cares about his kids. He still wants to be available for them. When he comes home from work, he’s really tired, so the evenings don’t feel like a good time to do his creative work, but he’s not a morning person either, so he doesn’t know when he’s going to get the time. These are some of the scenarios, the stories, that begin to emerge as you begin to write stuff about this person. What are the pain points that they feel?When they look around, what do they see? What kind of car does Brian drive? Does he like minivans? Does he have a minivan? How many kids does he actually have? You really kind of start to come up with this stuff, and there’s a lot you can do to get to a higher level of doing these customer profiles. You can actually do interviews with your customer base.Aaron: I do this! I try to meet people and talk to them, especially when it comes to podcasting.When you interview your customers, you can actually begin to get a real life picture of your real life audience.Creating an Empathy MapShawn: There’s this thing that we did, an empathy map, and you take the empathy map to create your customer profile. We ran this survey to our email list, and we ran a separate one to our customer list. It was, “When it comes to focus, what’s your single greatest challenge?” It was just this open-ended question where people could write stuff down.Some people say, “Time.” Or, “I can’t focus. I’m distracted.” Then you get some people who go, “I’m trying to build my photography portfolio website on the side because I love photography and I’m trying to grow it. I’m working this other job, and when I come home in the evenings, family is first. I spend time with family, so by the time the kids are in bed, I’ve only got about an hour left in the day. I’m so tired, and I don’t want to spend time trying to work on my photography website, so I don’t know where to get started.”The person who gives an in depth answer to the challenge like that, vs. someone who just says “time”, they’re really in touch with their pain point. There’s a book called Ask by Ryan Leveque, and you can find it on Amazon. He teases out, “You ask these questions, and you separate the people with the longest answers. You put their answers up at the top.”You cut the list at 20%. The bottom 80%, forget about those people, and look at the top 20%, these “hyper-responders.” What are their challenges? What are their pain points? Aaron, you could do this. You could say, “When it comes to building a podcast, what is your single greatest challenge?” You’ll probably have someone who says, “Building my list.” Or, “Building my audience.” Or, “Technical stuff.” But then you might have someone who really gives this heartfelt, in-depth answer.If someone gives you a heartfelt, in-depth answer, they’re hungry for a solution.That person is going to pay for a solution. That person is going to digest this, and when you give them something, they’re going to check it out. Look for these hyper-responders and cater your response to them. That’s what we did. That’s how we figured out that our biggest pain points for people who go through the Focus Course are one of four primary buckets, so to speak. It’s time management, getting traction on their business or side projects, finding clarity on what’s important to them and what they should be doing about it, and a lot of people also feel overwhelmed by all that’s already happening in life.Or, they look at the thing that they’re trying to make progress on, and they feel overwhelmed. They don’t even know where to start. Really, all of these things feed off of each other. When one is in a rough spot, the others start to be in a rough spot as well. We go, “Okay, these are the main challenges we’re going to address as part of the Focus Course, in all of our writing. This is it.” The people that fit within these four buckets are the ones who are willing to pay for a solution.Use Your Audience’s LanguageShawn: Read the actual responses, the answers, and take the language that people are saying and use it in your articles. Answer their actual questions in podcast episodes. You use it in your marketing language. The landing page for your product, or your podcast, or your sign up, or whatever—use the actual language of your hyper-responder customers. Now, not only are you listening to them and you know who that ideal customer is, but you’re also even speaking their language.A) it’s going to be cool because hopefully you’ll do more sales, but B) you’ll actually get to connect with the people you want to connect with. That’s the whole point. That’s why we’re here.That’s one of the huge benefits of having these customer profiles. It can help you stay focused on who you’re trying to talk to and what it is you’re trying to talk about, to help them.Aaron: That’s mindblowing. That’s fantastic. At the core, I kind of know this stuff, but hearing you explain it made it even more clear to me. I love that. I want to take it in this direction.How to Grow Your Audience & Create Deeper ConnectionsAaron: One of the most common questions I get about podcasting is about growing an audience. It’s always, “How do I get more attention? How do I get more listeners? How do I grow an audience?” I love what you said right here.Use the language of your customer avatar in your content to create a deep connection with them.That’s where listeners come from. So many people think that they’ll magically get 100,000 people to listen to their podcast, and they won’t have any idea of who these people are. They’re nameless, faceless avatars on the internet. No! Especially in the beginning, you start small. You develop relationships with people who care passionately about the thing that you’re talking about.By investing in them, getting to know them, and asking them questions—regardless of whether you’re doing some kind of business thing or not—by just talking to them and getting to know their language, that’s how you’re going to resonate with them and even more people. What methods have you found effective for growing an audience and developing deeper relationships?Shawn: I think that’s a great question. Everyone wants to know the answer to this. For me, there are three primary keys to growing an audience:ConsistencyHonesty and transparencyRelationships.1. ConsistencyShawn: Consistency is core. This is a phrase in the seanwes Community, and it’s a phrase I like to use, and that’s this: show up every day. That’s consistency. We’re just people of habit. The internet is a thing of habit, so you have to have that consistency where you’re in people’s regular cycles. Sean McCabe talks about this a lot. You want to be in people’s weekly cycle at a minimum.Show up on a regular basis. Also, that’s how people know you’re going to be there. There’s something about that consistency. One of the ways you develop an audience where people are tracking with you and paying attention when you’re showing up consistently.When you show up consistently, not only do you earn people’s trust, but you create an anticipation of future value.You want to have that. That’s huge. People are like, “I want to know what’s next. I want to follow this story and be here.” Consistency is huge.2. Honesty & TransparencyShawn: This comes out in a lot of ways. In some ways, you want to have the transparency like Nathan Barry talks about, to “teach what you know.” Share what you know. Also, there’s a human element, passion and persona, who you are as an individual. Humanizing yourself is so helpful. We don’t want to connect with brands, we want to connect with people. As indie entrepreneurs or indie creative folks, when you are running your own thing, you are a brand but you’re also a person.You’ve got to keep the person aspect of it, the human aspect of it, you have to keep it there. Allow your mistakes to show through. Allow your passions to show through. For me, at ShawnBlanc.net, I cut my teeth and grew my audience originally by writing about Apple stuff. I wrote tons of product reviews. It was super nerdy, gadgety stuff. I would also write about coffee, camera gear, books I was reading, music, and things like that.Aaron: Stuff you cared about.Shawn: Exactly. Other interests that were related to Apple gear because it was my site, and I can write about whatever I want. That humanized the work that I was doing. So many people came to my site because of the Apple stuff but they stayed because of the coffee stuff.Your focus, your niche, is going to draw your audience, but your ancillary interests will keep people interested.You’re a real person with real interests who is not just this robot spinning off the same thing all the time.3. RelationshipsShawn: This is huge. I stink at it, but I’m trying to reply to emails. When people email me, replying back to them. Also, here’s a prime example, having me on your show, Aaron. The practicality of it is that when this show goes live, I’m going to tweet about it. I’m going to link to it. I’m going to point the people that track with me over to your stuff. That’s a way for you to grow your audience, but it’s also a way for me to grow my audience.Your listeners, a lot of people, don’t know who I am. Now, hopefully, some of them will come check me out and sign up for our stuff. There’s a really cool dynamic here of introducing your group to someone else. Hopefully, that person will also introduce their audience to who you are.Doing guest-based podcasts is an awesome way to grow your audience.I did some back in the day, when I was first starting my site. I did interviews, blog interviews. The whole thing was conducted over email, and it was just this back and forth email. I did one with Daniel Jalkut, who used to work at Apple and then started Red Sweater. He has the best blogging app on the planet for Mac, MarsEdit. It’s a super great app. I emailed him and did an interview with him.I did an interview with John Grubar. I did an interview with Brett Simmons, all these people who are super famous Apple people. I’m going back and forth with these guys and posting their interviews. They link to me on my site, and I get this influx of new readers. Or you find software that’s awesome. I would do super in-depth reviews about this stuff, and then people would link to those reviews. Honoring other people, connecting with other people, and doing stuff that’s worth talking about.Then the word will spread. That consistency, being transparent and honest about who you are, having that passion and that human dynamic to the work that you do, and then just trying to connect with other people. Do things that people are going to want to talk about. Another example is the summit that we’re doing, the Focus Summit. I’m punching way above my weight class here with some of these folks, and it’s a chance to hopefully get some of their audience to discover the work that we’re doing and visa versa.I hope that people who sign up for this summit will get introduced to some new people and that they’ll find some incredible resources. It’s just fun. We’re all just folks trying to do our best work, right?Aaron: Absolutely. I love that. That’s one of the best answers for building an audience that I’ve ever heard.The Importance of Investing One-on-One Time in Your ListenersAaron: The thing that I’m working on, and I just want to share this, is investing more time in my listeners. It’s hard sometimes, because you can spend all the time in the world talking to people on the internet, as I’m sure you know, Shawn. I’m sure people are constantly emailing you, asking for your thoughts, your advice, and your feedback on stuff, and you try to stay really focused. Something I’ve wanted to do is spend a little bit of time every day, like on Twitter, reaching out and telling people that I appreciate what they do.Or, if somebody emails me, having a conversation. In depth, giving them 15 or 20 minutes of focus time to reply, and even asking them questions. Someone says, “Hey, thanks for doing your show. I really appreciate this thing.” I’ll reply and say, “Thank you so much. How is your podcasting journey going? What are you working on right now? What do you want to get better at?” Some great conversations have come out of that.I’m trying to invest a little bit more in my listeners. I’m at the point now where I’ve started inviting some of them on the show. “Hey, you sound like you’d be a cool person to talk about podcasting with. Would you like to come on the show?” It just spreads.It’s the building of community that will eventually attract people to you.When I started, I had 30 or 40 friends, maybe a couple hundred followers. Every new person that finds my show and gets to know me as a person, who respects the work I do, they might have 200 people that follow them, and they share my show with those people. It just spreads out from there. It becomes this big net.You can eventually reach people that are far outside of your social circle just by connecting with the people you can connect with right now.Let them do the work of sharing your stuff with their people, too.Shawn: Yeah, exactly.Focus Summit & ProductsAaron: That’s fantastic. We’re getting close to the end of the episode. We need to wrap it up. I told everyone in the beginning that I would get you to talk about this Focus Summit that you’ve got coming up. What’s the deal with this? Tell us a little bit about that.Shawn: The summit! I’m so excited about this. We have Jocelyn Glei, who just wrote this book called Unsubscribe, which is a fantastic book. It’s about email distractions and stuff like that. We’ve got Josh Kaufman, who wrote The Personal MBA. Anyone who is trying to do anything related to business, you need to read The Personal MBA. It is a bargain.Aaron: So much good advice.Shawn: It’s like a $35 book, and that book is so packed. Excellent, excellent stuff. Sean McCabe is on it, and Sean and I talk about how quantity leads to quality, which ties right into this stuff on showing up every day. The summit is going to be really, really cool. When this podcast drops, the summit is going to be kicking off. Here’s the link: The Creative Focus Summit.After the summit wraps up, we’re opening up registration for our Focus Course. That has become my flagship product. It changed everything for me, in terms of what I was focusing on. I came up with this course as the next product in a series. I had done Delight is in the Details, and I wanted to write a book about diligence and productivity. I wrote the book, and then, long story short, I realized that it needed to be a course.I felt like the way that I wanted to get these ideas across wasn’t a book that someone would read, highlight, think was cool, and then puts back on their shelf and returns to life as usual. I want something that’s really going to effect change. I knew that a book would probably go farther, broader, and reach a total number of more people. I would rather fewer people go through the course but have a higher number of them really get real impact.For me, the book ended up turning into the Focus Course, and we’ve had close to 1,300 people go through it. It’s basically productivity training for creative people and entrepreneurs and leaders. It’s way, way more than that. It’s not tips and tricks. It’s what I call “meaningful productivity.” It actually gets to the core, the heart, and the foundation. What do you really care about? How are you really spending your time?This is not a “Five Life Hacks That Will Help Me Go Through My Email Inbox Better.” It’s hard questions that will make me challenge my assumptions about my family, my work, my down time, and my rest time. Anyone that thinks that taking a nap will improve productivity, the Focus Course is for you.Aaron: That’s me!You have to have a healthy life to do your best work.Shawn: You can’t sprint this. This is a marathon, so you have to have that breathing room. The Focus Course opens up after the summit is over, and I’m super excited about it. We’re going to have a whole group of people cruising through in January. We’re doing a winter class for it. We’ve got some forums, so everyone can share their progress. It’s going to be a blast. I’m really excited about it. The summit is free, and the Focus Course itself is going to be something we charge for, obviously.Aaron: You have to charge for things, or else people won’t take it seriously.Shawn: It’s so true.Aaron: You have to invest.Shawn: That’s something else. We didn’t get into that earlier when we were talking about the pricing stuff, but that’s another reason to charge for your work. Someone is actually going to have skin in the game. They’re going to find value for it.Aaron: They have to ask themselves, “Okay. Do I think this is going to help me enough in my life journey to actually put money towards it?” If they answer that question for themselves and then make the choice to give you that money, they are going to say, “I told myself, I believe, that this is worth my time, so I need to invest my time in it.”Shawn: Exactly. Very true.Aaron: Where should people go if they want to follow you, connect with you, or ask you questions?Shawn: Twitter is a great spot. I’m @shawnblanc on Twitter.
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Shawn is a bestselling author and creator of The Model Health Show, featured as the #1 Health podcast in the country on iTunes. A graduate of The University of Missouri - St. Louis, Shawn studied business, biology, and kinesiology, and went on to be the founder of Advanced Integrative Health Alliance, a company that provides wellness services for individuals and organizations worldwide. Shawn has been featured in Entrepreneur magazine, Men's Health magazine, ESPN, FOX News, and many other media outlets. In today’s show, we talk about sleep, and why it is critical for health, fertility, balanced hormones and much more! Topics discussed in today's episode Shawn's journey back to health after his experience with a debilitating illness The role that sleep plays in the body's detoxification process The importance of preparing for a good night's sleep The relationship between sleep, insulin levels, and weight gain The relationship between sleep deprivation and food cravings Why is sleep so important for overall health and fertility? What happens to our bodies if we aren't getting enough quality sleep? What are some of the ways that we can optimize our sleep? How can what you do first thing in the morning impact your sleep quality at night? What is the relationship between sleep and hormone balance? What impact does sleep deprivation have on sex drive? The negative impact of light on your sleep quality at nighttime Connect with Shawn You can connect with Shawn on his website and on Facebook and Twitter. Resources mentioned The Shawn Stevenson Model | Shawn Stevenson The Model Health Show (Podcast) | Shawn Stevenson Sleep Smarter: 21 Essential Strategies to Sleep Your Way to a Better Body, Better Health, and Bigger Success Sleep Smarter - 21 Essential Strategies to Sleep Your Way to a Better Body, Better Health, and Bigger Success (book) FFP 053 | The Effect of Light on the Menstrual Cycle and Fertility | Sleeping in Darkness to Regulate Menstruation | Natural Family Planning | Joy DeFelice Join the community! Find us on the Fertility Friday Facebook Fan Page Subscribe to the Fertility Friday Podcast on iTunes! Music Credit: Intro/Outro music Produced by Sirc of (The Nock)
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