Podcast appearances and mentions of david yes

As the property management industry continues to evolve, it's important to stay up to date on the latest innovations in technology. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with David Normand from Vendoroo to talk about AI's role in the future of property management. You'll Learn [01:29] The AI Revolution [08:47] The Importance of Empathy and Human Touch [22:21] Decreasing the Cost of Maintenance Coordination [32:29] New Features Coming to Vendoroo Quotables “As any property manager believes, we know how to do it the best.” “If you're not reading articles and studying up on this, I think that's going to catch you by surprise pretty quickly.” “Empathy is the magic lubrication that makes everything better.” “Empathetic reflection and empathy is a magical ingredient.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] David: If you're not building AI tools from working with your partners, from being on the ground floor with them and using the data and building tools based upon the data and their pain points and their failures, buyer beware. If somebody's coming to you and saying, Hey, we figured this all out in the lab. [00:00:14] David: Come use it. Yeah. Right. Buyer beware. [00:00:18] Jason: All right. Welcome property management entrepreneurs to the DoorGrow Show or the Property Management Growth podcast. I'm Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow, the world's leading and most comprehensive group coaching mastermind for residential property management entrepreneurs. We've been doing this for over a decade and a half. [00:00:39] Jason: I've brought innovative strategies and optimizations to the property management industry. I have spoken to thousands of property management companies. I've coached over 600 businesses. I've rebranded over 300 companies like Bar Rescue for property managers, cleaning up their businesses, and we would love to help coach you and support you and your growth. [00:01:01] Jason: We have innovative strategies for building out growth engines, for building out your operational challenges, for helping you figure out how to get to the next level in your business and one of the cool tools that I'm excited to showcase today with my guest here, David Norman, is Vendoroo. We've had you on the show before. [00:01:19] Jason: Welcome back David.  [00:01:20] David: Yeah. Thank you for having me. It felt like years ago, it was only about, I think eight months ago since we did this, so much has changed over the time, so it's great to be back. Yeah, it's great to be back.  [00:01:29] Jason: Good to have you. I know you're in the middle of this AI revolution, which AI is just innovating and changing so rapidly. It probably does feel like years ago, so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's been crazy. You guys have made a lot of changes too, so, you even changed your brand name from the last time we had you on the show. Yeah. Which was I think Tulu. Yeah. Right. And so, yeah. So why don't you get us caught up on what's going on 'cause, you know, there's been a lot.  [00:01:55] David: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you first of all for having me here today, Jason, and from the entire Vendoroo group of us, which, you know, the team has grown 10 x over the past eight months, which has been awesome. And I just also wanted to start in thanking everybody from what we call our client partners who have jumped in into this great unknown that is AI and is going to be like, how is this going to work in our industry? And so that's really what we've been focusing on the past eight months. You know, it's been a unbelievable journey of both failures, successes learnings and insights. And ultimately we're getting excited here at the NARPM broker owner which is in Denver to unveil Vendoroo. Like this is the coming out party. And so we're super excited if you're going to be there. We have a massive booth that we have set up that we have the ai alliance with other people that are working in the AI space, and I really hope that you guys come over and check it out. I promise this. [00:02:53] David: You'll never see a booth or a display like we have set up. At the NARPM broker owner. So.  [00:02:58] Jason: Now I want to go attend it. Yeah. Just so I can see your booth.  [00:03:01] David: So, let me put it this way. You may see the robot from the Jetsons walking around the booth walking around the NARPM broker owner, so, okay. [00:03:07] David: Yeah. Rosie? Yeah. You may see something like that. So she'll be vacuuming with her apron? Yeah. She'll be doing a little social engagement. It'll be cool. So, okay. Okay.  [00:03:17] Jason: Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, so catch us up on what, like, let's get into the kind of the background and the overview for people that have never heard about Vendoroo and what you guys do and how you got into this. [00:03:29] Jason: Yeah. Give people kind of the backstory. Yeah.  [00:03:31] David: Yeah. Thank you for that. So really the backstory is that, you know, we know of this AI economy that's coming, right? And there was a few of us, you know, I've been in this industry for 18 years. You know, I've managed you know, portfolios of 40,000 doors. [00:03:47] David: I've managed them for governments. You know, I started off with our own property management. Much like you guys. We started off with 80 doors. We grew to 550 doors in four years. So it was exciting to know that technology that was coming that promised duplication because, you know, as any property manager believes, we know how to do it the best, right. [00:04:05] David: And so what we decided to do is to come together and say, Hey, if AI's coming, there's two things that we need to figure out. Number one is how is this going to help us show value in this new industry to this new generation of property owners that is here, that is coming, that has been raised in the technology world too, right? [00:04:25] David: And two, can it actually duplicate our efforts? Can it actually be an employee for us? Right? And I don't care what people are promising about ai, you don't know until you get into what we call like, you know, get into the weeds, you got to get into the trenches. And so that's what we did, right? We went out and we were the guys that grabbed the torch and we said, we are going to take all the risk. [00:04:46] David: We are going to jump into the mix. We're going to ask people to jump onto the bandwagon with us and we're going to figure this out. And oh my gosh, what an unbelievable eight months it has been in learning and insights. And I can't wait to get into all the things that we've learned about the property management industry. [00:05:01] David: But that's really what we've been focusing on here the past eight months, right? So we started off with well hey, can the AI assist the va? Can it turn them into a super va? Is that what it's going to be? And, you know, some people were like, yay. And some people were like nay, you know? And so, and you know, because that human failure still was there, right? [00:05:21] David: And you know, what happens if they left? There was that inconsistency. And then it was like, all right, well what can the AI own? Right? What can it do? What can it perfect? And you know, can AI actually be the last employee that I ever hire? Right. That's really, that's a really cool thing to do. [00:05:39] David: But the property managing community had some really specific demands that they said that if this is going to be the last employee that I've had, it has to do this. And that's what I'm excited about our new technology 'cause it's doing those things. You know? [00:05:52] Jason: Yeah. And now you guys have made some big moves. I know, like I've, I have clients that we've sent over to you and they've shared some incredible stories. Like one client, I think he had 154 units or something like under management, and he said in the first day you're of turning on Vendoroo, like it closed out like 80 something work orders. [00:06:12] Jason: Yeah, like, it was crazy. Another client, they had a little more doors. They said it was like 50 something work orders were closed out in the first day of turning it on. And so, I mean, you're creating some dramatic stuff. Like this is a very different thing than what people are used to in maintenance. [00:06:27] David: Yeah. Yeah. And really what the exciting part about this, Jason, is that maintenance is actually really easy. And I know people laugh when I say that it's managing communications that is extremely difficult. Okay. Okay. Right, because you have, you know what AI told us about our industry over the last eight months is when we dove in with it and it took a step back and it said, whoa, you guys don't have a data problem here. [00:06:51] David: You guys have a emotion problem here. There's very specific categories of emotion that are in this space, right? Like, how do you build a technology that senses something? And I know this relates with property managers, 'cause I know this for myself. A property manager can walk into their office, sit down at their desk, and their spidey senses go off and they know something's wrong. [00:07:15] David: There's no screen that's telling them anything. There's no spreadsheet. They know something's off. Right. And so the AI is like, well, the statuses really don't matter that much to me based upon the feedback that I'm seeing from the property managers. Because the status and the communication all seem to be in order, but there's a disruption somewhere. [00:07:35] David: So I need to know about people's emotions. I need to understand about is the resident happy? Does the owner feel supported? Is the vendor being directed? And does the property manager believe that I can own the outcome for this? And it was really cool to start seeing its learning and understanding and picking up on these cues where, you know, people say that this is a data-driven industry. [00:07:55] David: It's really in an emotion driven industry.  [00:07:57] Jason: Oh yeah. It's a relationship and emotion industry for sure. Yeah. Yeah, big time.  [00:08:01] David: And it's really cool to see, and it's really started happening over this past last 60 days, the amount of residents, I was actually just looking at one before I jumped on here, that are like thanking the system, right? [00:08:15] David: Imagine that, like think of all of us that actually worked with the chat bot at like Verizon. I've never thanked that chatbot at Verizon for being their customer service. Right.  [00:08:25] Jason: And how do I get a representative? Representative. Representative!  [00:08:28] David: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Versus you seeing people, you know, seeing individuals saying to the, you know, saying to the Vendoroo maintenance coordinator, Hey, I really appreciate feeling supported and how fast you acted because you know, there's empathy that's inside of its law and learning. So I don't want to get too much into the details on there. But yeah, these are some of the exciting things that we're working on.  [00:08:47] Jason: I mean, empathy is the magic lubrication that makes everything better. [00:08:52] David: Yeah,  [00:08:52] Jason: I mean they, they've done studies. Teams, even in working in warehouses, are more productive if the team has a higher level of empathy. Yeah. And doctors perform better. Yeah. If there's a higher level of empathy, there's less malpractice suits, like empathetic reflection and empathy is a magical ingredient. [00:09:10] Jason: I coach clients to add that in during sales. Yeah. 'cause their close rate goes up dramatically. Yeah. Right. So yeah. So leveraging and like getting the AI to actually be empathetic in its communication. Yeah. When that's probably not a natural skill for a lot of maintenance coordinators to be empathetic. [00:09:26] David: It's not, it's not a natural skill for a lot of people in the maintenance industry. Right? Yes. Especially when you talk about burnout. People begin developing views of the rental community, right? Like, oh my gosh, they're calling again, and that empathy meter goes lower and lower and lower. [00:09:41] David: Yeah. As people have been in the industry longer. But isn't it great that you have an employee now that knows that, yeah, it's my duty, rain or shine, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 a year to always operate at the highest level of empathy? I never have a bad day. I never take a day off. [00:09:57] David: I'm never upset. I'm never short with somebody on the phone, never tired, never like, oh my gosh, Susan is calling me again. I'm going to let the phone just ring because I'm annoyed of talking to her. And it just is constantly hitting that same level of standard. And this is what's exciting to me, is that there are people that that have played around with this and have been a part of what I call the pain phase, right? [00:10:20] David: The pain phase is that understanding the way that agentic AI works, right? It's input in output. Input, output, right? The more that you're putting into it, the better the results are that you're going to get out of it, okay? Right. It's just like training an employee. So over the last eight months, what we've seen is that the community has trained this to be the level of a person that has now been working in the industry for five years. [00:10:46] David: In eight months. It's got five years of learning in eight months. Okay. Wow. In the next six to 12 months, we're probably looking at somebody that has 10 to 15 years understanding in the next six to 12 months and understand the level of type of tasks that it can do, especially getting into estimates and getting some other work. [00:11:04] David: And again, just you know, having empathy in my own life towards the people that jumped in that are like, what is this all about? Like, how does AI fail? Like, you know, there's still people that are involved and it was like this big like momentous train of like, you know, all these people were jumping on and giving ideas and people are in the loop and now it's weeding everything out and the AI stepping in and saying. [00:11:27] David: Hey, I appreciate all the input that you've given me. Thank you for all your effort. I'm now ready to step up to the plate and to own the outcome. Right. And that's what we're seeing at the NARPM show that's coming out. There's five AI tools. There's a master agent, five AI tools. And you know, I'll give you a couple of pieces here that, you know, we had feedback from our property managers like number one across the board. [00:11:50] David: A property manager said, if I'm hiring AI as my last employee, that has to work in my system. Yeah. Okay. Right. Like I don't want another, I don't want another technology. Yeah.  [00:11:59] Jason: I don't want a new system I got to get every vendor to use or a new system I got to get my team to use or figure out. We don't need another tool to make our lives more difficult. [00:12:08] Jason: No. They've got to use our stuff.  [00:12:09] David: They got to use, we have our existing stack. Yeah. So now the AI is fully integrated into all the most common PMS systems. You know, you have a cool chrome extension that you can download and there's a little yellow kangaroo right right there. And it's actually reading the work order that you're working on, and you can literally just ask it a question now and just being like, Hey, did anybody express frustration or concern on this work order? [00:12:32] David: Right? Because that's the emotion behind the status that you need to know. And it's like, yeah, two days ago Sally said that, you know, she was actually really frustrated about the multiple reschedules by this vendor. And it's like, great, that's a person I should be reaching out to and that's what I should be knowing that a status is never going to tell you. [00:12:47] David: Right? Yeah. It's in your slack, right? So if I have, if I'm on my phone, I'm talking to my employee and I'm laying in bed and I have a panic attack as a property manager, and I'm like, oh my gosh, did we take care of John's refrigerator and the office is closed? I can't get ahold of my employee. Yeah, you can. [00:13:03] David: Your employee works 24 7 now. Hey, can you give me an update on the refrigerator replacement at John's place? Yeah, it was scheduled this day. I contacted John. Everything's good to go. You know, go to sleep. You know, like, like that's the power. Full audit. Full syncing. So it's in your platform. That's really cool. [00:13:21] David: The other thing, it's got to be branded, right? This is a thing that we really learned about, like how important branding is to the community of property managers, right? Yeah. So the communications that go out have to be from your area code that's done. The emails that go out have to have like, you know, your company name and your logo on it. [00:13:39] David: The AI is doing that as well too. So that's being sent out, which is really cool. So people are feeling like, you know, that loyalty to brand is super important. And also do you know now that the AI can ask the residents to give a Google Review and we can link to the Google reviews and give you instant Google reviews to your page through the ai, which is cool, like how it's, it will know that if the success of a Google review is high on the way that the work order was done, that it's probably best to ask this person and it will send them a little thing. [00:14:11] David: Hey, can we get a feedback from you? And we link up to your Google review. And it posts that Google review to generate those 'cause we know those are super, super valuable to property managers. So that's actually going out today. That's kind of a little teaser there. That's the emails out now. [00:14:23] Jason: Nice. We'll have to get you to also connect it to our gather kudos links for clients 'cause then people can pick which review sites. So it diversifies the review profile.  [00:14:32] David: Love it. Love that. I'm going to hook you up with our guy Dotan. He's running that. He's one of our head of product. He's, actually out of Israel. [00:14:39] David: He's a amazing guy. I'd love to get you connected with him. Yeah. Cool. Let's do it. Cool. And then the biggest one too is like, I need a single point of contact. Right. And we knew that before there was a lot of people were still involved. There was a lot of oversight that was going on there, having that confusion and single point of contact. [00:14:56] David: Now it's in your phone, it's in your Slack, it's in your phone extension. It doesn't matter what's going on. You have one point of contact. It's your employee. You ask the question, get the answer, Jason, you can even ask for a change. You can even say, Hey, I want to change a vendor on a job and you'll see that the vendor gets changed for you in the system. [00:15:17] David: You can even say to your ai, and this is the big one: hey how do you triage this work order? And I want you to do this, or I want you to do that. And you just do it right through Slack or right through your PM chat and it makes the change for you. And now you have custom triage and all property managers have the ability to train their own AI for their company. [00:15:36] David: Think how cool that is. A person with 75 doors now, and the product that's being released has their own AI agent customized for their company, right? Yeah. Like, that's what happened over the last eight months, so you can see my excitement. There's been a lot of hard work in this. [00:15:54] David: Yeah, that's amazing. But this has been all the effort and a huge thank you out to everybody who's tried us, you know, even said that this wasn't for them at that point in time because those learnings went into what's going to make this product the best product in the property management space and is going to help people leverage sales and leverage efficiencies and blow their owners' minds away in ways that, that we have never thought about. [00:16:15] David: Oh yeah.  [00:16:16] Jason: Yeah. So I know like initially when you rolled this out, a lot of people were nervous about AI and you guys had kind of a human layer in between the AI and any communication Yeah, initially. Yeah. And so there was like, they had like a reps and a lot of people associated, oh, I've got this rep. [00:16:33] Jason: Yeah. You know, Steven or whatever is my rep or Pedro and I've got Pedro and like, oh no, what if Pedro leaves? And they were associating with that while the AI is really doing the crux of the work. Right. And so you guys have shifted away from even that now the AI is directly communicating with people. [00:16:52] Jason: Correct? Yeah.  [00:16:53] David: Yeah. So let's talk about that. So, definitely, so in the beginning there was like, we all had like lack of trust. We believed what it was going to do, but it was like we had a ton of people still trying, like, you know, using qualified VAs, training them. Like, you know, like, you know, if it fails, like, you know, you have to have a person stepped in and so let's talk about that. [00:17:12] David: So, you know, it was definitely that human layer. And let's talk about where we're at today. It is very clear to us, and the one thing that separates us from everybody is we still believe that humans are super important in this process. Okay? Yeah. And where humans are very important in this process are going to be when the AI says, Hey, I need you to make a phone call to this person for me, right? [00:17:35] David: Hey, I've reached out to this vendor three times and they haven't responded yet. I need you to give a phone call to see what's going on. Right? Hey, I need you to recruit a vendor for me. I need you to reach out and do a recruitment for the vendor. For me. Hey, this owner is asking questions about this estimate. [00:17:51] David: I need you to give a call for me. So the AI is basically able, on a standard work order, the AI can handle 95% of the workflow, no problem. Work order comes in, gets assigned to the resident. It gets out to the vendor. It's under the NTE not to exceed. It's great. The work gets done, the resident uploads its photos, the AI says to the resident, are you happy? [00:18:14] David: Everyone's good. It closes the work order out. Cool. Right. And then if a human...  [00:18:19] Jason: and how is it communicating with the tenant and with the vendor typically? [00:18:24] David: Yep. So, it's very clear that and this isn't a surprise to anybody. Everybody loves text messages, right? Yeah. I mean, that's just, it's just what it is. [00:18:32] David: You literally, like, people will get a phone call and they won't pick up and the text will come back and like text back. Yeah, text me. What do you need? Yeah. Text me here. But, so here's the things that people don't see behind the scenes that we'll talk about. So the complexity that went into. [00:18:51] David: Mapping out how to allow vendors... so a vendor could have like 20 jobs, right? And we don't want to send him like a code that he has to text for every work order so that it links to the right work order. Like what guy wants to do that? Okay. Like that's not how he works. So we figured out how to allow a vendor through AI just to use his regular phone and text anything about this thing. And it's understanding it and it's mapping it, it's routing it to all those work orders because we knew that in order for this to be the last employee somebody would have to handle, it also means that the vendor has to be happy and the same for the resident. [00:19:30] David: They can just text that they have multiple work orders. It understands what work order it's going to. If it's not quite sure, I would ask them, Hey, is this question about this work order? And they say, yeah. And so there's not like, again, codes and links and things that they have to do. It has to be seamless if they're working with a person. [00:19:46] David: So yeah, text message is massive. Email is second, and then phone is third for sure.  [00:19:51] Jason: Got it. So is your AI system calling people yet or you or telling the property manager to make the phone call?  [00:19:58] David: Yeah. People are okay with. If they're calling in like our new front desk agent, which if a person calls in and they want to get information about a listing or if they want to get information about a work order or something like that, or, you know, they're okay with getting that type of information. [00:20:13] David: Yeah. But they are, it is very clear that they are not okay with AI calling them when they're asking for an update on a work order like that. Like that line in the sand very clear. Yeah. And so we have people on on the team. That are constantly monitoring into ai, giving feedback, hitting improvement. [00:20:31] David: I want everybody to know there is not a work order that is taking place that is not touched by a human at least twice.  [00:20:38] Jason: Okay.  [00:20:39] David: Okay. Right.  [00:20:40] Jason: So there's a little, there's some oversight there. There there's, you're watching this, there are humans involved  [00:20:45] David: And then the ai will when it hits certain fail points, right? [00:20:51] David: It then escalates those things up to what we call the human in the loop, right? So there's an AI assistant, we there's people now that we're training a whole new generation of people that are no longer going to be maintenance coordinators. They're AI assistants now, right? And so when the AI says, Hey, this work order is not going down the path that I think it should go to be successful. [00:21:12] David: I'm escalating this up to a human, and so now as a property manager, not only am I getting this AI agent workflow that's standardizing the empathy and the workflows and all the stuff that we talked about in the communications, I also now get a fractional employee that when the AI says, Hey, I need help, I already have an employee that it can reach out to that can make that phone call or call the vendor. [00:21:36] David: But it's also monitoring the AI for me on top of it. So yes, there is, and that's one of the big thing that separates us apart is that the platform comes with what we call a human in the loop, an expert in the loop and so we're training the first generation of AI assistants in the property management industry. [00:21:55] David: Yep.  [00:21:56] Jason: Got it. So the AI maintenance coordinator. Has human assistance. Yep. Underneath it.  [00:22:02] David: And before it was the other way around where Yeah. The AI was assisting the human right. And now the humans are assisting the ai. That's what's happened in the last...  [00:22:11] Jason: that may be the future of all of our roles. [00:22:12] Jason: So,  [00:22:13] David: If you're not reading articles and studying up on this I think that's going to catch you by surprise pretty quickly. Yeah. Learn how to write prompts. I'll tell everybody right now. Yes.  [00:22:21] Jason: Yeah. Interesting. So, now what about this, you know, there's the uncanny, you know, sort of stage where people get a little bit nervous about AI and what do they call it? The uncanny valley or something like this, or right where it gets, it's so close to human that it becomes creepy. And there's some people that have fear about this, that are concerned. You're going to have a lot of late, you know, adopters that are like resistant. "I'll never do ai." [00:22:49] Jason: What would you say to somebody when you get on a sales call and they're like, well, I'm really nervous about this AI stuff, you know, and they just, they don't get it.  [00:22:57] David: Yeah.  [00:22:58] Jason: I'm sure there's people listening right now. They're like, oh man, AI is going to kill us all and it's going to take over the world and it's going to take our jobs. [00:23:05] Jason: And they think it's evil.  [00:23:06] David: Yeah. Yeah. I, and you know, I really want to hear that fear and I want to like, again, have empathy towards that. 'cause I do understand that fear of change causes people to get... Change in general. Yes. Right. It's like, whoa, I like everything the way it's going to be. Right. And we are historically in one of those phases of like, you know, the industrial revolution, the renaissance, like the automobile from horse. [00:23:34] David: Like, this is what is taking place. This is, this will be written down in history. It's massive change. It's a massive change. Massive. So what I would say to them, and not to, not from a way of fear. But to inspire them is there are a lot of hungry entrepreneurs out there that are embracing this head on. [00:23:57] David: Yeah. That are pushing the boundaries and the limits to be able to bring insights and customer service to their clients at a much higher level. And if you want to compete in this new AI economy. I would definitely encourage you to understand and get in and start investing in yourself now. But understand that investing in AI means having some pain threshold. [00:24:21] David: Like you got to get in, like you, you need to be able to give the feedback. You need to understand that if it falls short, do you have to be able to give it the time and the energy and the reward and the payoff of what I'm seeing for property managers who've embraced that when they're sitting there and they're going, I don't touch maintenance at all anymore. Yeah, it's wild. Right? And those are the people that in the beginning of this relationship, and there's a few that come to my head, are the ones that were sending me emails constantly saying, David, this is failing me. I believe in this, but this is failing me. And as my technology partner, I know that you're going to help us get this better. [00:24:58] David: And there is, you know, I have this word down that struggle equals great con conversation, right? Like, and so they had a struggle and that opened up a great conversation and because of that, their technology and the technology is getting better. So yeah, I think that from a personal point of view in this industry, one thing that I want to solve with AI is I think that we can all say that over the past 15 years, we've probably yelled at a lot of vendors or yelled at a lot of VAs or yelled at a lot of people. Let's start yelling at the ai. And then hopefully that the AI will actually eliminate the need for us to ever have to yell at anybody again because it knows us. [00:25:36] David: Yeah. It never fails us.  [00:25:38] Jason: You know? It really is amazing. I mean, your company is creating freedom for the business owner from being involved in maintenance. Yeah. Really?  [00:25:46] David: Yeah.  [00:25:47] Jason: And it just, and they get used to that pretty quickly. Like maintenance is just running and they're like, yeah. It frees up so much head space for them to focus on growth. [00:25:56] Jason: It gives them a whole bunch of like just greater capacity. Yeah. So they feel like, yeah, we could handle adding any number of doors now and we know we can still fulfill and do a good job.  [00:26:07] David: Yeah. Fixed cost scaling. Right? That's a term that we came up with is now that you know that I have a price per door that will cover all my maintenance. So if I went in and brought on 75 doors, I know that I don't have to go out and hire another employee. The system just grows with it and I know exactly what my margin is for all those doors. Right. And as we know previous, before fixed cost scaling a property managers is like, I have enough people. [00:26:32] David: I don't have enough people. Someone quit, someone didn't quit. My profit margins are good. My profit margins are bad. Yeah. And now with these AI tools. You know, you have your front desk employee, you have your maintenance coordinator, you have these fixed cost scales, and now somebody calls you up and says, Hey, I want you to take on 25 doors, and you're like, I have the resource resources for maintenance, which is, we know is 80% of the workload already. I don't have to go out and hire another maintenance coordinator 'cause the system just grows with me, which is cool.  [00:27:00] Jason: So one of the things you shared at DoorGrow Live and you're our top sponsor for the upcoming... Can't wait for DoorGrow Live, can't wait to, so we're really excited to have you back so. [00:27:10] Jason: Everybody make sure you're at DoorGrow Live if you want. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management. And we're bringing, we're going to be showcasing, innovating pricing structures that are different than how property managers have typically historically priced, that allow you to lower your operational costs and close more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:27:30] Jason: We're, we'll be showcasing a three tier hybrid pricing model that we've innovated here at DoorGrow, and we've got clients using it. It's been a game changer. We're going to be sharing other cool things about the future hiring systems, et cetera. Right. So you guys will also be there showcasing the future. [00:27:46] Jason: One of the things you shared previously that really kind of struck me as you showed, you did some research and you showed the typical cost. Per unit that most companies had just to cover and deal with maintenance. Yeah. And and then what you were able to get it down to.  [00:28:03] David: Yeah.  [00:28:04] Jason: And that alone was just like a bit of a mind blowing. [00:28:07] Jason: Could you just share a little bit of numbers here?  [00:28:09] David: Yeah. So one of the first things that we had to do when we started way back in the day is figure out well. Like, like what's the impact of AI going to be us from like a cost perspective, right? Is it a huge change? And so we went out on a big survey mission and we were surveying property managers and asking them, what's your cost per door for managing maintenance? [00:28:30] David: How much do you spend every door to manage maintenance? Now the first thing is less than 1% of property managers knew what that cost was. Sure.  [00:28:37] Jason: Oh, sure. Right. Because, but then they got to figure out, oh, we got a maintenance coordinator and we've got these people doing phone calls and they cost this, and yeah, it's complicated. [00:28:45] David: It's complicated. So we built a calculator. Okay. And then people could start adding in that information out into the calculator, and the average person was around $13 and 50 cents a door.  [00:28:56] Jason: Okay. Okay.  [00:28:57] David: Wow. Right, right. So that was where the average person was, somewhere in the low twenties. Yeah. [00:29:01] David: And others were actually pretty good. Like, I'd say like, you know, some of the good ones that we saw were maybe around like, you know, 10, $11 a door or something along that line.  [00:29:09] Jason: They probably had a large portfolio would be my guess.  [00:29:12] David: Yeah. And also I think a lot of it's just like, you know, I don't know if they were still accounting for all their software and everything that they had. [00:29:19] David: Maybe they're not factoring everything. Yeah. No, I think if we really dug in, it'd be different. So now we know that, you know, the base package of what people are getting in. The average cost of what people are paying for 24 7 services that's emergencies around the clock is about $7 and 50 cents a door, right? [00:29:37] David: So right off the bat in AI's first swing, it said we cut the cost in half. Yeah. Okay. Right. So 50% reduction. I mean, to me as an owner, a 50% reduction in cost. That's like. You know, alarms and celebration going off, you know? For sure. And then, yeah.  [00:29:55] Jason: And that's, if everything just stayed the same, like it was still the same level of quality, cutting in half would be a solid win right there. [00:30:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:30:03] David: Yeah. That's just like status quo stuff. And now what, with the release of the new Vendoroo product that, that's actually being announced here today. The email's going out to all of our existing clients of all the new features that are coming out now, we're starting to see that. You know that quality is now increasing to where if you were to go out and hire that person, you may have to be spending, you know, 55,000 or $65,000 a year. [00:30:29] David: Right? So now it's like saying, okay, if we can get as good as what these people are using for their VAs right, and we know what that cost is, and they're saying that's, you know, that's what their factors is. Well, what happens in the next six to 12 months when this is a seasoned person that you would've to pay $85,000 a year to? [00:30:45] David: Right. Yeah. And right, because they have knowledge of. Estimates and knowledge of vendor routing and knowledge of, you know, it can handle...  [00:30:53] Jason: you've invested so much time into them, so much attention. They know your properties and know your portfolio. They know the vendors. Like you've invested so much into this person that now they sort of have you by the balls so that they're like, Hey, I want 80 k or I walk.  [00:31:06] David: Yeah.  [00:31:06] Jason: You're like, you've got to come up with it.  [00:31:08] David: Yeah.  [00:31:09] Jason: Right. You've got to do it.  [00:31:10] David: Yeah.  [00:31:10] Jason: And you know, because that's not easy to create. And a lot of people, in order to have a good maintenance coordinator, they need a veteran of the industry. Veteran of industry. [00:31:19] Jason: They need somebody that's been doing this a long time.  [00:31:21] David: Yeah.  [00:31:22] Jason: And that's really hard to find.  [00:31:24] David: Yes. It's extremely hard to find as we know. One of the things that I think that we're doing for this industry is we're actually preserving knowledge that I don't think is necessary getting passed down. [00:31:33] David: Yeah. You know, there's a lot less people that I think are as handy as they once were in the Americas and so we have a lot of that knowledge. Like, you know, we know that the average age of an electrician is in the sixties, the average age of a plumber's in the sixties. And these guys, you know, they have wealth of knowledge that it can troubleshoot anything that's going on in a house. [00:31:54] David: And so to be able to try to preserve some of that, so maybe if a person does come in, you know, maybe there's some knowledge sharing along the lines. But let's take it even in another step forward Jason that in the future, you know, the AI is going to know the location of the hot water tank in that house. [00:32:10] David: It's going to then add it automatically to the system, like. It's going to know more knowledge than they will because it's going to have maps of every single property that's all currently sitting inside of, you know, that maintenance coordinator's head, right? And so it's going to, it's going to actually know more than them, you know. [00:32:26] Jason: Yeah. That's wild. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. It's the future. Cool. Well, you're rolling out a bunch of new features. You're announcing these today. You've told me a little bit, but why don't you tell the listeners what's changing, what's new, what innovations have come out? What are you guys launching? [00:32:41] David: Yeah. Exciting. Yeah. So, the biggest one I think is, which is the most exciting is, is Resiroo, which is the first one that actually handles all the communications with the resident and does the triage and troubleshooting. First one of what are you talking about? So we have our products. [00:32:57] David: So you have these AI tools, right? These agents. Right.  [00:33:00] Jason: And so, you know, every, so think of them like different sort of people?  [00:33:04] David: Skill sets. Yeah. Different person. Okay. Exactly. And so that's when you come and see our display at the NARPM conference, you'll actually will see these five agents kind of in their work desk and in their environments, kind of cool. [00:33:15] David: Okay. Able to see them right. So the coolest part about that one is we're doing a major product you know, update on that for not only the knowledge base, but we're actually turning that over to the company. We were talking about this a little bit before, and now they own their own AI agent and they can customize it into how they want it to ask questions or the type of questions and the mindsets when it's triaging stuff. [00:33:41] David: Triaging work orders for their portfolio. Like super cool. So fully customizable to your company, right?  [00:33:49] Jason: So now sometimes the more humans get involved, the more they mess stuff up.  [00:33:54] David: Yes. We make sure they don't mess it up. So everyone's going to learn how to write prompts and they'll submit it into us. [00:33:59] David: And we have a great team of AI engineers that when that knowledge base is written or what they're doing. We will ensure that it is put in so that it actually produces the desire outcome, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's a very exciting one. The second one that I'm that I think is so cool, do you know that only 10% of all estimates get approved by the owner without one or multiple questions? [00:34:23] David: Because owners really struggle with trust when it comes to estimates. Like 10%. Like, that's a really bad number, I felt as the industry that owners only believe us one out of 10 times. Like that's the way I took that. Yeah. Right. And so, Owneroo is what I coined inside, is the estimate of the future. [00:34:41] David: That really was looking in understanding like what was, what questions was the owner asking when they were rejecting a bid that that we could proactively ask the answer for them to help guide them to understanding the value in this estimate that they're looking at in historical context of the property. [00:35:00] David: How many other people have experienced this issue? Like, like there's a whole bunch of factors that should go into an estimate and an estimate should no longer be like, here's a cost from Frank. Right? Like, like that was like, like that was...  [00:35:14] Jason: here's what Frank said it is. Yeah. Like that was like from the 1940s. [00:35:17] Jason: That's good. How do I trust that?  [00:35:18] David: How do I trust that? That was from the forties and we're still...  [00:35:21] Jason: how much went into this decision? Was this just out of the blue, like pulled out of your ass or is this like legit?  [00:35:27] David: Yeah. Yeah. What's the, you know, we live in a data-driven world, so what's the intellect behind this estimate? [00:35:33] David: And so I'm really excited about Owneroo, which is going to be the new standard for the way the estimates are created. We have the front desk agent which is coming out. So, that one is going to handle phone calls that are coming in, be able to talk about available listings, actual general questions about leases route phone calls over to property managers for you. [00:35:54] David: So again. Very human-like interaction, great AI voice. Actually. We feel it's going to be the best in the industry. So a person's calling in, just like they're calling your office able to handle all those front desk things. We, we have the PM chat, which is now the employee which is fully integrated into all of your systems. [00:36:14] David: It's in Slack. That's your employee that you get to talk to. We believe that if you're going to hire somebody, they should be inside of your communication channels. You have the Google Chrome extension that it's on right inside your AppFolio or your buildium or your Rentvine software that you can ask and talk to it. [00:36:31] David: So, yeah, so we have a lot of exciting products that have come out. And then of course the backbone of all of them in the middle is Vendoroo, which handles all the scheduling, all the communications. You know, a resident asks for an update, responds to them, an owner asks for an update, it responds to them. [00:36:48] David: And you know, it handles actually the body of the work order. So you have those five tools, we believe are what the property management industry said. If you are going to give me an employee, this is what the employee has to be. This is what makes up that employee. So we say that these tools, these agents were actually built by the property management industry. [00:37:08] David: And that excites me because if you're not building AI tools from working with your partners, from being on the ground floor with them and using the data and building tools based upon the data and their pain points and their failures, buyer beware. If somebody's coming to you and saying, Hey, we figured this all out in the lab. [00:37:25] David: Come use it. Yeah. Right. Buyer beware.  [00:37:29] Jason: Yeah. So you guys connect with Slack. They can communicate through Slack, but it slack's a paid tool. Have you guys considered Telegram? I love Telegram Messenger.  [00:37:37] Jason: Alright. Could you do that? Write it down. Telegram Messenger is like the iMessage tool that works on every device. [00:37:44] Jason: It's free. It's one of the most secure, it's not owned or controlled by Facebook. Like, WhatsApp, like, yeah. But WhatsApp might be a close second, but we use Telegram internally, so I love Telegram.  [00:37:58] David: We'll definitely take that into, into consideration for sure. Yeah, check it  [00:38:02] Jason: out. Because I, what I love is the voice message feature and I can just listen to my team and others at like high speed, but internal communications and it's free for everybody, which is great. [00:38:12] Jason: So, yeah.  [00:38:13] David: Yeah. I think a lot, for a lot of people it was like you know, who was Vendoroo in the beginning and Vendoroo was like the team of like people that were trying to figure out like how is AI going to work in this industry? [00:38:26] David: How is it going to solve the needs of our property management partners? And this is why I say to everybody, if you thought about Vendoroo, if you came in and the experience wasn't great with Vendoroo, if you're one of our existing clients that has been with us and you're and you're still moving forward, and we thank you so much for your dedication to this, the Vendoroo product, everything that we've done, everything that we worked at is being showcased at the NARPM broker owner. The email's going out today. This is who Vendoroo is. We are a team that is a technology partner for the property management industry that is helping building meaningful AI tools, specifically by demand, by our industry to help us show value and to preserve this great industry. [00:39:09] David: For the future in this new AI economy, right? Like we need to step up. We have clients that are adding doors left and right because they're showing their clients that they use an AI maintenance system and their clients are like, this is what I expect from a property management in this community. [00:39:24] David: Right? And again, Owneroo, that estimate, we believe that in the future. Like, like owners are going to say like, I'm not approving an estimate unless it's like the estimate of the future, right? Like, like that's the new standard. So you got to know what the new standards are and you got to get technology that are going to help you compete with those new standards that will be in your community and are will be in your community in the next week, the next two weeks. [00:39:46] David: And definitely some really cool products in the next six months.  [00:39:49] Jason: All right. Well, yeah, I'm really excited to see what you guys have been able to create so far. So yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah. All right. Well David, it's been awesome having you on the show. Sounds like you guys are really innovating the future. Everybody come to DoorGrow Live. David, are you going to be at that one? I will be there. All right, so you can come meet David in person. [00:40:08] Jason: We've got some amazing people that are going to be at this. We've got technology people. There's a gentleman there, one of the vendors they created another really cool tool, but he had a hundred million dollars exit, you know, in a previous business, like there's really amazing entrepreneurs and people at this event, so come to DoorGrow Live, get your tickets, and if you do, we have just decided that we're going to give out to anybody that registers. [00:40:34] Jason: You can pick from one of our free bonuses that are well worth the price of the ticket. Or coming or anything in and of itself, including our pricing secrets training that goes over a three tier hybrid pricing model or our sales secrets training, which goes over how we're helping property managers crush it and closing more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:40:55] Jason: And reputation secrets, which are helping our clients get way more positive reviews by leveraging the psychology and the law of reciprocity and getting the majority of their tenants in order to give them positive feedback online. Maybe some others. So you'll be able to pick from these bonuses one of these that you might like and that's our free, most incredible free gift ever that we'll give to each person that registers for DoorGrow Live. [00:41:19] Jason: So.  [00:41:20] David: Cool. Awesome man. Always great to see you. Looking forward to seeing you at DoorGrow Live and love that you guys are working on pricing because AI is going to make people think different about pricing. It's going to be way more efficient, so you guys are ahead of the curve on that. Great job, Jason. [00:41:33] Jason: Awesome. All right, so how can they check out Vendoroo, David?  [00:41:36] David: Just visit, Vendoroo.ai, go to the website, request a demo with one of our great sales reps, and yeah they'd love to help you out. See all the new products, see how far it's come. And again, we thank everybody from the bottom of our hearts for all their effort, people who've tried us out. [00:41:52] David: Come back and see what you built and yeah. Come check us out at Vendoroo.  [00:41:57] Jason: Got it. Go check out Vendoroo, it's vendor. If you know how to spell that, V-E-N-D-O-R-O-O dot A-I, go check it out. All right? And if you're a property management entrepreneur, you want to add doors, you want to make your business scalable, you want to get out of the day to day, you want to increase the capacity so your company could easily handle another 200 plus doors without having to make any significant systems changes, reach out to us at DoorGrow. We will help you figure it out. So until next time to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

Sometimes during a group it is as if a light comes on that illuminates some aspect of life in a magnificent fashion and that speaks to each person in the group whatever their background or station in life. This was true in particular this evening as we continued to discuss St. John's writing “To the Shepherd” on the responsibilities of a spiritual elder. As we made our way through the text, it became clear that St. John's teaching about the care of souls applies to all of those who are responsible for the formation of others; not only priests or religious, but also parents, teachers, friends, etc.  Not one of us is free from the charge of the salvation of others; aiding them through our prayers, taking opportune moments to clarify their understanding of the faith, being living witnesses of the gospel and the love of the cross. All of us have the responsibility of seeking purity of heart and freedom from the passions in order that we might be able to discern with clarity and humility the needs of those around us. Lacking this, St. John tells us, we undermine our capacity to be well disposed and compassionate to each individual for whom we are responsible or who enters our life. How is it that we can serve others if we cannot discern good from evil and everything in between? In fact, St. John tells us it is a great disgrace for a superior to pray for or hold forward spiritual gifts to others that he himself is not acquired. How is it that he can faithfully guide others to God and to become partakers of the glory of God if he has no understanding of this within his own heart. Experience is the truest teacher and if the superior lacks that experience, he may only bring harm to others. Those who are spiritual elders, fathers, or mothers, must not be tempted to set aside this role in order to enjoy worldly friendship with those in their charge. It can be a natural thing to want companionship and to some extent this can exist. However, if a familiarity develops between the superior and others, he may lose the capacity to guide and feel constrained to do the bidding of others; never to contradict them, refuse them, or correct them. The elder must be pure of heart and able to understand the interior life and also the realities that sanctify us within the life of the church. The elder must be able to create a culture that forms a mind and heart directed toward God, the love of neighbor and the love of virtue. He must be able to discern the emotional capacity and maturity of others, so as not to push too hard and risk breaking their spirit or neglect giving counsel or correction of those who are quick witted and naturally gifted. Such purity of heart alone allows the elder to perceive supernatural realities and to understand the struggles that individuals have with multiple demons. The elder must be able to cure passions thought by others to be incurable. In this sense, he must have truly put on the mind of Christ and be the most humble and obedient member of the community. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:14:02 Bob Cihak, AZ: P. 251, # 14   00:19:16 carol_000: Is much known about the repentance of Joseph's brothers or God chastising them for their treatment of Joseph   00:26:27 David: I think this is a big problem also in families. My oldest son felt I was often to hard on him. Now that he is 27 he has mentioned several times that I was the only one that loved him and was always there. It is really hard but being a father is different than being a friend only there to enjoy the good times and not try to guide someone to what has value.   00:28:48 Art: Reacted to "I think this is a bi..." with

I don't know if you've ever heard the expression, "no is a complete sentence." have you ever heard that one? It's interesting because it's very hard to just say no in business when someone asks you something. That was an old Nancy Reagan thing, right? "Just say no." Say no to drugs. Just say no. But when somebody asks you to do something, you just say "no." I think there was an episode of Seinfeld like that... David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I discuss the need to say no in business. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, thank you so much, David. I think this is one of the hardest things to do in business because we feel like we can answer every question and that we should. And the reality is, that's not the case. David: Yeah, and it's such an easy trap to fall into because there are so many people that we feel like we need to say yes to, right? We've got business associates, we've got clients, we've got prospects, we've got family, we've got friends, everybody coming to us with things. And the agree type of person inside us wants to say yes to most things. We want to be agreeable. We want to do the best of our ability. But sometimes we can really get in over our heads when we don't at least start to say no to some of the things that are not going to allow us to get where we need to go. Jay: Yeah, and I agree. It's in your personal life. It's in your business life. If you have a sales cycle, it's which customers you choose to deal with. I mean, you can let your entire life be dominated. And I know people like this and I've looked at him and I said, how do you ever get something done? I mean, I love you because you want to help everybody and you're so serving to other people, but your family might be neglected. Your business might be neglected. There's got to be balance in the force, right? David: Yeah. And sometimes, during some stages of life, it's easier than other times to say no. But there are periods in there, man, where it's just like you feel like you have to do everything. You have to say yes to every opportunity. You have to at least explore it. You want to try to help everyone you can possibly help, which is a great thing, but we all have a limited, finite number of hours in a day. 24 hours is fixed. It's inflexible. We can't change that. And everything we say yes to means that we're saying no to something else, even if we're not physically saying no. We're not giving ourselves the ability to accomplish additional things, which creates sort of a huge opportunity cost if we're not careful. Jay: Yeah, and how many of us are careful? That word careful, right, David? What does that mean? Is it identifying the things that you have to get done? I think yes, the things you want to get done, the priorities? And I don't think we're saying no to everybody, right? It's understanding yourself and what's most important and saying, I'm actually going to say yes. to so many people, but after that, I'm booked. I can't. I've got to be with my family. I've got to be at work. I've got to be, with these other priorities. David: Yes, and I think for a lot of us, it's inside of work where we often have the most difficulty saying no. Because when you're dealing with family and friends, in a way, it's easier to say, well, I can't because I have to do this. I can't because I have to work, right? We're not saying no I'm not doing it. We're saying I can't. When in fact, we're either prioritizing incorrectly or prioritizing poorly or we're just making the decision that no, I'm going to do this instead And it's very difficult to do that to actually say no to someone as opposed to presenting the excuse instead of the actual no. Saying I can't as opposed to I am choosing to do this other thing. That's tough. Jay: Yeah, it is tough or find what I'll do is because I don't want to use the word no, I'll put it off till later. Like, I'll say, well,

In this episode, we explore findings from a groundbreaking study recently published in Nature which revealed potential targets for bowel cancer prevention and treatment. The study provides the most detailed understanding yet of bowel cancer's genetic makeup. The research, which used data from the 100,000 Genomes Project identified over 250 genes that play a crucial role in the condition, driver genes and potential drug targets. Our guests discuss the potential impact of these findings on patient outcomes, screening for bowel cancer, and future prevention strategies. Helen White, Participant Panel Vice-Chair for Cancer at Genomics England is joined by Professor Ian Tomlinson, Professor of Cancer Genetics at the University of Oxford, Claire Coughlan, Clinical Lead for Bowel Cancer UK and consultant nurse in colorectal cancer, and Dr David Church, a clinical scientist fellow and a medical doctor specialising in oncology at Oxford University. "The people that were kind enough to donate samples to the 100,000 Genomes Project, they did so knowing that they almost certainly wouldn't benefit personally from their donation from their gift and that any benefits would be some way down the line and hopefully benefit others which is what we're seeking to realise now. But, you know, it's not a given when we treat people in the clinic so we're very, very grateful to those individuals." You can read more about the study in our colorectal cancer blog and our study findings news story. You can download the transcript or read it below. Helen: Welcome to Behind the Genes. Ian: One of the great hopes is that some of these new genes that we've found could be useful in preventing cancer and it doesn't necessarily matter that they're rare, even if they're only 1% of cancers, by using those and changing those in the normal individual before they have had cancer then we may be able to reduce that risk. So, there are lots of potential new targets for prevention that are coming through.  My name is Helen White and I'm the Participant Panel Vice-Chair for Cancer at Genomics England. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Professor Ian Tomlinson, Professor of Cancer Genetics at the University of Oxford, Claire Coughlan, Clinical Lead for Bowel Cancer UK and consultant nurse in colorectal cancer, and Dr David Church, a clinical scientist fellow and a medical doctor specialising in oncology at Oxford University.   Today we will be discussing a pioneering colorectal cancer study which using data from the 100,000 Genomes Project has uncovered new insights that could transform diagnosis and treatment for patients with bowel cancer. If you enjoyed today's episode we would love your support, please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcast.  Thank you for joining me today. We're going to be discussing the findings from a landmark study that has been published in nature. This study used data generously donated by people with bowel cancer who took part in the 100,000 Genomes Project giving us the most detailed look yet at the genetic makeup of colorectal cancer better known as bowel cancer. But before we get into that let's start by hearing from my guests. Could each of you please introduce yourselves.  Ian: I'm Ian Tomlinson, I work at the University of Oxford and most of my work is research into bowel cancer, it's genetic causes, the genes that are involved in actually causing the cancer to grow which may be different from genetic causes and also the use of that data to help patients whether guiding future treatments or potentially helping to prevent bowel cancer which would obviously be our optimum strategy to have the biggest impact on the disease and its incidents.   Claire: So, I'm Claire Coughlan, I'm the clinical lead for Bowel Cancer UK and my remit at the charity is to ensure that everything we do is clinically relevant and that we're providing services that meet the needs of those affected by bowel cancer and the educational needs of those health professionals that work with people affected by bowel cancer. I'm also a nurse consultant in colorectal cancer at Lewisham and Greenwich NHS Trust and I lead an urgent referral service there and also work with patients with late effects of bowel cancer.  David: I'm David Church, I'm a medical oncologist and Cancer Research UK advanced clinician scientist at the University of Oxford. I treat bowel cancer clinically and do research on bowel cancer and womb cancer including a lot of research using samples and data from Genomics England data service we're discussing today of course.  Helen: Great, thank you. Now let's turn to Claire to learn more about bowel cancer. Claire, can you share with us how common it is, how treatable it is and if there are any trends in terms of which groups of people are affected?  Claire: Of course, bowel cancer is a relatively common cancer, there are about 46,000 people each year in the UK diagnosed with bowel cancer so that is quite a large number. The thing that really drives us forward in bowel cancer is that the earlier stage you're diagnosed at the greater chance of survival. So, the figures for that are quite stark, we stage bowel cancer through stage one to 4 with one being the earliest stage and 4 being the most advanced.   If you are diagnosed with bowel cancer at stage one you have a 9 in 10 chance of being alive and well 5 years after your diagnosis of bowel cancer. And if you're diagnosed at the other end of the spectrum at stage 4 that drops to a 1 in 10 and should people survive after a diagnosis of stage 4, which more people than before do they will have had a lot of treatment for their bowel cancer so the burden of the treatment will also be with them after that. So, it's really important that we diagnose at the earliest possible stage which is why studies such as the one we're going to talk about today are so important.   We have noticed that there has been a slight increase in being diagnosed at a younger age. That said the latest statistic is 2,600 people were diagnosed under the age 50 in the UK last year so it's still a disease of older people, you still have a greater chance of getting bowel cancer as you get older but it's really, really important that we're aware that you can still get bowel cancer as a younger person.   Probably one of the most exciting things that has happened for bowel cancer of recent years is our bowel cancer screening programme and the age for that now has been brought down to 50, we're not quite there all over the country, but in the UK that is the aim that everyone will be screened for bowel cancer at the age of 50. So, yes it's a common disease and staging an early detection is vital. Helen: That's lovely Claire, thank you very much for that. David, turning to you could you please explain to us how bowel cancer typically develops? David: Yes, so we know compared with many cancer types quite a lot about how bowel cancer develops because the bowel is accessible to collect samples by a technique called endoscopy which is putting a camera into the bowel from which you can sample tumours or lumps. And so from genetic research done in the last 10 years we know that, or we've known for many years actually, for much longer, that cancer is a genetic disease, it's a disease caused by alterations in genes and particularly genes that control whether the cells in our bowel grow normally and die normally as they should do. And collectively when there are alterations in genes that regulate those processes you can have a cell or collection of cells which are able to grow without restraint and don't die when they should do which are some of the hallmarks of a cancer and they also require the ability to spread elsewhere in the body which is what kills people with cancer including bowel cancer. We know from research done in the last 10 to 15 years that some of the alterations in genes that can cause bowel cancer in combination occur very early in our life, even in the first and second decade of life, but don't cause cancer. The earliest detectable abnormality is typically a polyp which is a tumour, a lump within the bowel which is detectable and if removed is almost certainly cured by removal alone but if it's not detected then as that grows and acquires more alterations in genes then it can become a cancer and cancers develop the ability to invade the bowel wall, to spread to what we call lymph nodes or glands nearby and also to spread further afield, most commonly to the liver or to the lungs.   And for most people whom bowel cancer has spread to the liver or to the lungs or elsewhere unfortunately we're not able to cure their disease which as Claire has said is why there is such an importance in detecting cancers and pre-cancers as we call them so that the tumours are not actually cancerous but come before bowel cancer as early as possible.  Helen: Thank you David. Moving on to the study, Ian perhaps you can take this, in the study that you carried out my understanding is that the whole genome sequencing was used to investigate the genetic changes that lead to the development and growth of bowel cancer. And for this participants with bowel cancer in the 100,000 Genomes Project donated both a blood sample and a tumour sample while those with rare conditions only provided a blood sample, can you explain why that is?  Ian: As you said the study really looked at 2 quite separate arms albeit with a little bit of overlap as we'll see. So, one very important aim was to look at individuals, both children and adults, who had medical problems or other conditions that were unexplained but which had some features that suggested that they weren't necessarily inherited but there may be some variation in their genes that had caused them, and roughly half of the programme was dedicated to that.   Within that there was a small number of people who had a strong family history of bowel cancer or who had large numbers of polyps in the bowel and they were analysed in a separate part of the project from what we're mostly discussing. Within the cancer arm there was a collection really throughout England of patients who had most of the common types of cancer and a few with less common cancers.   And because when we're looking at genetic and related changes in cancers we need to make sure that those changes have actually occurred in the cancer as it started growing from its earliest stages with a small number of cells in the body that were slightly abnormal and then progressing. We need to look at what genetic variation the patient has in all the cells of their body. We don't want to look at patients and say that looks an interesting change, we may be able to use that if it's present in all of the normal cells in that patient's system.   We want to make sure the change is specific to the cancer itself and therefore we have to sequence both a sample probably taken from blood and a sample taken from the actual cancer. And in a way we subtract out the changes in the blood to identify the changes that have actually occurred in the cancer itself.  Helen: That's a very helpful explanation. Does this research show that there is a role for whole genome sequencing in clinical care?  Ian: I think my own view is it is all a question of cost. I think the advantages it provides it can assess multiple types of genetic change at once. It is relatively consistent across each cancer's genome between cancers, even between centres mean that it is the method of choice. There are undoubtedly developments that will happen in the future, maybe being able to sequence longer stretches of DNA in one go that will help the analysis.   And some of the computational methods are likely to develop to identify some of the slightly difficult to identify genetic changes but it ought to be the standard of choice. There are issues and potential difficulties in collecting the high-quality samples that have been needed from pathology laboratory and that will be difficult going forward with current budges and there are lots of challenges but ultimately it in some form has to be the method of choice. What wasn't done is to look at other molecule tests or essays, looking at RNA wasn't really done on a big scale as well as DNA and other changes to DNA apart from the genetic changes were not looked at.   So, there are certainly ways it could be improved if you had limitless money but I think the project, 100,000 Genomes has shown the whole genomes are. They have a lot of advantages and ultimately probably will be adopted by the NHS and similar organisations.  Helen: David, could you now tell us about the findings of this pioneering study and what impact these findings might have on people with bowel cancer in the future?  David: So, this is the largest study to date to analyse the entire genome of bowel cancer by some margin and the fact that we've done whole genome sequencing and in so many people it has really given us an unprecedented ability to identify the genetic alterations that drive bowel cancer. And within bowel cancer we've known for some time it is not a homogeneous entity that bowel cancer is not all created equal, that there are sub-groups of bowel cancer and we have been able to refine those over previous efforts. And I guess if you were to ask what the biggest take home for me from the study is it's just the complexity of the disease.   So, as we've mentioned we know that cancer is a genetic disease, that it's driven by genetic alterations, alterations in genes which regulate the growth of cells or the death of cells or the spread of cells. And we've known for many years that there is a modest number of genes which are commonly malfunctioning in bowel cancer and they would be in the tens to dozens really. But with this work we've hugely extended our understanding of the genes that drive bowel cancer and in fact we've discovered nearly 250 genes which are altered in bowel cancer and appear to drive the growth of the cancer.   Now we know that not all of those will be validated and by that I mean that there are associations that we find at the moment, not all of which will be biologically relevant but interpreted in the data we know a large number that are previously undiscovered are or we can be fairly confident of that. And one of the take homes from that is that many of these are only altered in a small fraction of bowel cancers.   So, rather than being perhaps half of bowel cancers or a third of bowel cancers there are a good number of genes, a very substantial number of genes, which are altered in say 3 to even 1% of bowel cancers. And if we think about how we go about targeting those and perhaps we'll come onto treatment later that poses really challenges for how we work and we would think about treating patients with bowel cancer who have those particular alterations in their cancers.  Helen: Thank you David, yes we'll come onto treatment shortly, but I think Claire has a question for you.   Claire: Yes, thank you. For me as somebody who works in this every day this is such an exciting and interesting study, particularly in light of what we said earlier about early detection and how critically important that is for improving outcomes in people with bowel cancer. So, in your view do you think this research could help shape future screening programmes or prevention strategies?  David: That's a great question, I suppose in terms of screening at the moment the majority of screening is done in the UK at least by testing for blood in the stool which is relatively non-specific so I'm not sure that that would be directly impacted by this research. But one area of early cancer detection that is perhaps more relevant is quite a lot of work including from Oxford actually in recent years looking at blood tests. So, testing blood samples for early detection of cancer whereby you can test for genetic alterations, fragments of DNA that have alterations from the bowel cancer or any cancer that circulates in the blood and that tends to rely on a small number of common alterations.   And with this data I could see that we might be able to refine those tests and in so doing improve our early detection of cancer but that would need quite some work before we could actually say look that had real potential I think. And in terms of prevention there are, I think Ian may want to come in on this, one or 2 sub-groups which you might think that you could try to prevent but of course that needs a lot of extra work really.   But I think we have some clues of the biology of bowel cancer and particularly some of the sub-groups where you might think well this drug would work better in terms of preventing that sub-group or that sub-group but that will need to be the subject of future study.  Helen: Ian, did you want to come in on that at all?  Ian: So, at the moment prevention is a fairly new way of helping to reduce the number of people with bowel cancer at the level of the whole population which is what we have in the UK above a certain age group as we heard from Claire earlier. The methods used, again as we heard, are screening for occult blood in the stool and then colonoscopy to identify either hopefully early cancers or polyps and remove those. But when we think about the methods that we use for preventing other diseases then normally where they're successful using a more easily delivered and I have to say less expensive method.   So, high blood pressure is treated to reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and there are other diseases where those what you might call molecularly-based prevented strategies are coming in. We really lack that for bowel cancer in particular, it does happen for some other cancers, but one of the great hopes is that some of these new genes that we've found could be useful in preventing cancer. And it doesn't necessarily matter that they're rare, even if there are only 1% of cancers, by using those and changing those in a normal individual before they have had cancer then we may be able to reduce that risk.   So, there are lots of potential new targets for prevention that are coming through and as David said it is going to take a lot of work to work out which of those are deliverable and who will benefit. But we have quite a lot of opportunities in that space and although that may not be us that takes that forward, it may be, but it may not be. We think it is a lot of material for those interested in chemo prevention using drugs of cancer that they can work on and with luck deliver some new ways of preventing cancer that may be simply popping a pill every morning to take your risk right down to as close as zero as we can.  Helen: Thank you Ian. David, I think you had something to add here.  David: Thanks Helen. One area of prevention that we're really interested in Oxford and many others are is using the genetic alterations that we find in bowel cancers and other cancers as targets for vaccination. Now we know that gene alterations will cause abnormal proteins which while they might drive the cancer, make it grow or not die, can also be recognised by the immune system so the abnormal proteins can be recognised by the immune system as being foreign and as foreign they can be targeted by the immune system so the immune system will try and kill the cells carrying those alterations. And we know for some sub-sets of bowel cancers those alterations can be relatively predictable actually, they occur in quite a sizeable fraction of some sub-groups of bowel cancers.   And one area that we're particularly interested in at the moment and actively pursuing is using those targets where you need some additional work to demonstrate when they are particularly recognisable by the immune system. But to use these genetic alterations is potential targets for vaccination with the intention ultimately of preventing bowel cancer in at risk individuals or ideally in the full-term time the whole population. And we've received some funding from Cancer Research UK to pursue this line of research and we have a group working on this in Oxford and as I say many others do elsewhere.  Helen: Thank you David, yes I have a vested interest in this because my understanding is this work is aimed primarily at people with a genetic condition called lynch syndrome which predisposes the people who have inherited this gene change alteration to bowel cancer, womb cancer and other cancer. And I had womb cancer, as I think David you know, a few years back and discovered it was due to lynch syndrome and so it's really exciting that you're now looking at vaccinating preventing because yes I take aspirin every day, I have my colonoscopy every 2 years which have some effect on preventing these cancers but it's not 100% guaranteed. And I don't suppose it ever will be but having the vaccination in that armoury would be fantastic I think for future generations, it's very exciting and we look forward to hearing more about it.   Thank you Ian and David. I mean we've heard a lot there about preventing bowel cancer but I think moving back now to potential treatments, you know, we've heard from David how this study has shown a number of actionable findings but what are the next steps towards treatment? How can these findings be turned into real actions that will benefit those people diagnosed with bowel cancer in the future? Ian, perhaps you would like to pick up on this to start.  Ian: That step is one, you know, in which I'm not personally an expert but a lot of the newer treatments are based on the finding of so called driving mutations which are simply genetic changes that occur as the cancer grows and contribute to that growth and ultimately if it's not treated to the spread and dissemination of a cancer. And the fact that we have reported 250 which need validation but of which a large proportion are likely to be true drivers means that anyone of those can be a potential new target.   The criteria to be used for which of those mutations to pursue, which of those driver genes to chase up are quite complicated normally, depend on many things such as the interest of research groups and small and larger drug companies. And the similarity of those genes to other genes that have evolved and the processes that they make to go slightly wrong in the cancer.   So, there is also the issue that because these are uncommon, everybody talks a lot about personalised medicine or precision medicine, this would be truly precision or personalised medicine because a genetic change that was driving the cancer in only 1% of patients is obviously not a huge number of patients although bowel cancer is a common cancer so it's not a tiny number either. But it would mean investment at that level to benefit let's say 1 to 2% potentially of all patients with bowel cancer but I think that's a nettle we have to grasp. And I think our results are showing that most of the really common drug changes either have not yet been successfully targeted in treatment or are too difficult to target.   So, we're going to have to start looking at these less common genetic drivers and design strategies, inhibitors, you know, again that can be delivered to patients relatively straightforwardly in order to see whether they benefit the patients concerned. But there is this problem of getting enough patients enrolled in clinical trials where a change is only present in a relatively small proportion of all the patients with that cancer type.   Helen: Thank you Ian. Presumably if there is a relatively small number of patients the people who are looking at running these trials might be looking at perhaps international trials, would that be one way to go?  Ian: So, I think David can speak with more personal knowledge but there are international trial networks and there are collaborations along these lines already under way. I would hope that those could be made use of even more than they are already. There is, you know, a financial consideration for those developing new anticancer treatments which are, you know, high risk work and also the costs of setting up trials and enrolling people is not a trivial thing. So, I think those are hurdles that can be overcome but it would need a concerted effort to do that. Patients will play a major role in that and patient organisations as well as 100,00 Genomes and other similar projects.  Helen: Yes, thank you, David I don't know if you want to come in on that.  David: Yes, the challenge of testing therapies in small groups is a very real one and there is lots of interest at the moment in exploring alternatives to conventional clinical trials. And as we use more electronic patient records and we have pharmacy records so there is the potential to get those data from routine clinical practice and there is lots of investments and attention on that at the moment so called real world data which is always an interesting term as if patients in clinical trials aren't in the real world which of course they are.   But it's perhaps a little more cost effective sometimes in clinical trials, of course it does pose its own challenges in how you disentangle true treatment effect from other factors because there are many factors impacting on how long people with cancer live. But there is a lot of investment and effort going into that at the moment and it will be interesting to see how that develops over the coming years.  Helen: Turning to you Claire based on your experience how well do you think people with bowel cancer understand how genomes can help with their care and what support is currently available to them in this area?  Claire: I think the answer, as it is so often is, it's dependent on individuals and not just one individual. So, I think some patients are very motivated to know as much about this as possible and to understand and to know what the next steps may be in their own treatment that may be helped by this. Others don't want to have the same knowledge and want to be guided very much by their medical teams but I think oncologists obviously are at the forefront of this and we see at the charity … we have services at the charity that supports patients and we see lots of queries into our ask the nurse service where people have been given variable information about I suppose personalised medicine as Ian alluded to and how their very specific bowel cancer may be treated, so I think it varies from patient to patient.   There is support available so we have the ask the nurse service I alluded to. We have a brilliant patient forum actually and everybody in clinical practice will have seen this, patients often become more expert than anybody and they share advice and they're moderated forums that are a very safe place for people to ask questions where there is a moderator to ensure that it is made really clear that circumstances are individual.   And the same with the ask the nurse service because you don't have all the clinical information so it is about empowering people, so there is support available. I think the other thing that is really important is equipping specialist nurses with the knowledge that they need to support their patients. This is a really exciting area of evolution for bowel cancer particularly I think in all cancers at the moment but for bowel cancer I think things have changed fairly rapidly in recent years and specialist nurses really need support in knowing that they have up-to-date information to give their patients.   So, that's another challenge for us and any specialist nurses that might be listening to this podcast we have online education on genomics for specialist nurses. Just while we're talking about that and you mentioned lynch syndrome earlier, so there has been a lynch syndrome project as I'm sure you're aware where we're trying to get testing for lynch syndrome brought into local hospitals.   So, there was some funding via NHS England so that the testing be done at time of diagnosis, so a pre-test and then a final test if that's appropriate, for everybody diagnosed with bowel cancer to see if they have lynch syndrome. And in some trusts that has been done and in others it hasn't yet and the funding hasn't quite followed in the way that we need it to enable that to happen. It's vitally important, we think there are about 175,000 people in the UK with lynch syndrome and we only know about 5% of them. And this is a gene change that is an inherited gene change so we can do what we call cascade testing where we test family members and we can then employ preventative strategies to prevent people from developing bowel cancer.   So, it's a really important project, so I think as well as supporting patients with the information around the changes that are happening in this area we also need to ensure that we support the workforce and have investment there to enable the support of all the changes and the genomic landscape.  Helen: Absolutely Claire and so much resonates there with what you've said. Having myself had cancer discovered that was due to lynch syndrome, cascade testing offered to my family members so valuable. It turns out I inherited my change from my mum who is 83, has never had cancer, so I think that's a very good example of, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that you will get cancer but actually on that point that you made about empowering patients I always have a right smile because there is my mum going off to all her other medical appointments because at 83 she sees quite a few people and she is always the one telling them about lynch syndrome and educating them because most of them haven't heard of it, so yes it's really, really important.   And that patient forum, you're probably aware of Lynch Syndrome UK, I don't have any involvement in that other than being a member but that is so valuable for people with a particular condition to go somewhere where they can talk to or listen to other people with a similar condition, really, really valuable.   Right, well I think circling back really to the 100,000 Genomes Project I think you touched on this earlier David but reflecting on what you and Ian have told us about your study what is it about the 100,000 Genomes Project bowel cancer dataset that made this work possible?  David: There are a few things, one of which and not least of which is the sheer size of the effort. So, to have whole genome sequencing for more than 2,000 individuals is previously unprecedented and we'll be seeing more of this now as we scale up our research efforts but at the inception of the project it was very, very ambitious and to be able to deliver that is a huge achievement. And the quality and breadth of the analysis is very strong as well.   And ultimately, you know, the former gives thanks to the people that were kind enough to donate samples to the 100,000 Genomes Project, they did so knowing that they almost certainly wouldn't benefit personally from their donation from their gift and that any benefits would be some way down the line and hopefully benefit others which is what we're seeking to realise now. But, you know, it's not a given when we treat people in the clinic so we're very, very grateful to those individuals.   And I think also to the scientists who worked incredibly hard over the last 5 years to deliver this work actually. So, having been part of the team and being lucky enough to be part of the team along with Ian we've had hugely motivated individuals that really have dedicated a large fraction of their working lives to delivering this project which I think is a fantastic achievement as well.  Helen: Thank you, thank you to all those participants who at a time when their lives probably were turned completely upside down by a cancer diagnosis were offered the chance to join the 100,000 Genomes Project and said yes. As you say most of them will have known that it won't have helped them but by donating their data, you know, it has allowed this work to happen and potentially it could change lots of people's lives in the future, so thank you to them.  Ian: Could I also just emphasise and agree with what David has said, I won't go through all the individuals by name, but if anybody wants to read the published report of the work there are several people on there, Alex Cornish is the first author, but many colleagues from an institute of Cancer Research, The University of Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, other universities in London that all contributed, but also colleagues in the NHS and/or universities who recruited patients, collected samples, processed them etc and of course the people who did the preparation of the samples in genetics laboratories and actually did the sequencing and basic analysis too.   So, it is a truly huge effort across particularly all the cancer types which is particularly a complex collection given the fact the tumour is needed and a blood sample. It's quite difficult in a way to find a formal way of thanking them for all of this but without them it wouldn't have happened.  Helen: On that note I think we'll wrap up there. A huge thank you to our guests, Professor Ian Tomlinson, Clare Coughlan and Dr David Church for an enlightening discussion on the groundbreaking study published in nature. This research is set to reshape our understanding of colorectal cancer and pave the way for new possibilities in treatment and patient care.   If you would like to hear more like this please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I have been your host, Helen White. This podcast was edited by Bill Griffin at Ventoux Digital and produced by Naimah Callachand. 

When I say "get over being scared of selling," that doesn't mean that you have to engage in methods of contact that you're really, truly uncomfortable with, right? That means finding a path, finding a path that works for you, finding a path that works for your people. Finding a path that works for your prospects and clients, right? And there's always a path. There is always a path to get there. David: Hi and welcome back. Are you scared of selling? If so, get over it. Today, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing that very topic. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, it's a great Halloween topic, right? Being scared. My kids are watching scary movies all of this month and I participate in a scary movie all day long when I have to pick up the phone and I have to talk to people who I don't know and convince them why my services are what they need. Please write me a check. That is a scary prospect when you think about it. David: Yeah, entrepreneurs basically are facing Halloween every day. In a lot of cases, a lot of ways, whether it's making phone calls or making payroll or making decisions, making rules, it's always about making something. And the whole idea of being scared of selling, I hear this from so many people that I thought we needed to address it. And when I say get over it, that sounds very insensitive, and perhaps it is, but it's also very necessary. Jay: Yeah, I mean, it's the reality. If you're in a business model where you have to sell, then you have to get over it. It's just that simple, and if you don't, then you're going to constantly be struggling. And it's not something that you're going to do from day one, but it is something that you have to be determined to do. David: Yes. And when I say this, I don't mean to put anybody down, right? There are a lot of really good people who have really good reasons for being scared of selling. Certainly in their minds, they've got really good reasons for it. And I'm not taking any of that away. It's a fact. The fact that there's a term called "call reluctance" indicates that there is a level of fear based here to the point where they had to create a term for it. So, what I find is helpful -- particularly if I'm interacting with salespeople who are running into this situation -- and a lot of times they won't even say they're scared of selling, but ultimately that's what comes out. One of the things that we have to look at first is why are they scared? Why are they scared of selling? Is it fear of success? Is it fear of failure? And a lot of times we hear blanket terms like that and they're like, "Oh no, it's not that." But sometimes it is. Sometimes it's variations of that. I'm afraid that if I call and they say no, it's going to hurt my self esteem. That's fear of failure. I'm afraid if I do too well, people are going to resent me and think ill of me, right? Some people think that way. So any of those preconceived notions that we have about what our sales success will do to us, for good or for bad, are going to impact our actions. And that's why I say we need to get over those things, right? We have to get past those things and once again, deal with reality. I've been on a sort of truth quest lately in terms of let's not look at what we think about. Let's not look at what we fear. Let's look at what's true. Let's look at what's real in the market right now. If there is somebody in the market right now who is afraid to interact with prospects or clients, it's going to impact their performance because it's going to impact what they actually do. If you're scared to pick up the phone, you won't pick up the phone. If you're scared to send an email, you won't send the email. Or if you do, it'll take a lot longer than it should. And then that's four other emails that you wouldn't have sent in the meantime. So we have to get over it. And a lot of it starts with the why. Jay: Yeah, the why is important.

Imagine enjoying the freedom to focus on visionary leadership while your business runs like a well-oiled machine. This Monday Morning Episode dives deep into the art of systemization in business operations, partnering with systems expert David Jenyns to reveal transformative strategies that liberate business owners and team members from monotonous daily tasks. Discover insights behind legendary organizations like McDonald's and Netflix, as David sheds light on the benefits of implementing documented processes. This episode not only highlights how these processes lead to career growth, job security, and streamlined workflows but also tackles the common hurdle of team resistance, providing actionable advice on engaging early adopters and ensuring positive introductions to new systems.David emphasizes the importance of clear communication and tailored processes that strike the ideal balance between systemization and empowerment. He discusses how business owners can remove non-compliance excuses, set clear expectations, and build a team of systems-driven individuals, paving the way for sustainable success. Tune in to learn how to transform your business into a systemized powerhouse, where creativity and structure coexist seamlessly, all thanks to tried-and-true methodologies.What You'll Learn in This Episode:Benefits of documented processes for career growth.Strategies for overcoming team resistance to new systems.How clear communication and setting expectations lead to smoother workflows.Techniques to remove excuses for non-compliance.The impact of surrounding yourself with systems-driven individuals.How renowned companies like McDonald's and Netflix utilize effective systemization.Tune in now to transform your business with expert strategies for systemization!‍‍You can reach out to David Jenyns here:Website: https://www.systemology.com/‍Mentions and Links: ‍Accounting Software:MYOB‍Brands:McDonald'sNetflix‍If you want your questions answered on Monday Morning Episodes, ask me on these platforms:My Newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/The Dental Marketer Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2031814726927041‍Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)‍Michael: Hey Dave, so talk to us. What's one piece of advice you can give us this Monday morning? David: When it comes to stepping out of the day to day operations as a business owner, you've got to capture your systems and your processes. And most importantly, you've got to get your team on board. And I feel like that's probably the biggest challenge for a lot of business owners.They try to systemize, they try it for a little bit, maybe one team member follows, maybe most of them don't, and then before they know it, everybody's forgotten about it, and it's just back to the way that things have always been. And it really, this one piece of advice I've got centers around how do you get your team on board?How do you get your team to follow process? And even. resistant team members. How do you get them to go, Oh, this is how we do things here. And key here is the way in which it's introduced to your team. A lot of business owners, when they go, Oh, we're going to start documenting our process. And we're going to have a particular way of doing things.The team member in their brain, they start to think, Should I be worried about my job? Is he trying to document what I'm doing so that he can replace me? Is he going to take my job offshore? I kind of like having this little black box where no one really knows what I'm doing because. It creates some level of job security for me.I don't want to capture my process and have that available and accessible for everybody else. So that's some of the things that go on in their head and that's what can make them resistant and then fall back to the ways that they may have done things in the past or not even want to share what it is that they're doing.So the bit of advice and the secret here is to really think about How it's going to benefit the team member. rather than just introducing it where the team thinks, Oh, the business owner is doing this to replace me, or maybe they want to go on a holiday. And, don't want to support that.Show them how, hang on, if you document your process or capture the way that you're doing things, this can help you move up in our organization because, by documenting process, we could delegate down to some newer team members. And that doesn't make you less valuable. It makes you more valuable because now you can work on higher value tasks.You can start to work your way up and work on these higher value activities. That's might appeal to some people. For other people, you might need to say, Hey, when you go on holiday and you tell me you want two weeks off and I say fine, but then I call you up every second day to go, Oh, where's that client's file up to?Oh, is that job up to? Do you remember where we saved that thing? And I'm on the phone calling you every second to try and find out what's going on. By documenting our process, it means that other people can step in and do some of those tasks, and the team can keep things moving while you're on leave, so when you come back, those things are done, and you can have a proper, restful holiday.So that might appeal to someone else, or, maybe it's, hey, there are going to be times when you're going to need time off for family. So, having process and the enable systems just means that people can step in and keep things moving. And that makes your job more secure and this business more secure.So again, a lot of it has to do with how you frame it and how you let them know this is going to benefit their situation. That'll dramatically increase the adoption of a systems culture. Michael: Gotcha. Okay. So then, David, can you share specific communication strategies you've used to address this type of resistance?How do you ensure the message is understood and embraced by team members? David: Well, The first thing to do and it's a little bit counterintuitive, is you actually don't think about who's going to resist it up front. Think about who's going to support this initiative. So when you first introduce the topic and you say, Hey, we're going to look to build a systems culture and want to capture some different processes.Hey, I've got, this book or this podcast that I want to share with you, just that talks a little bit about what we're doing and then see who resonates with it, who listens to it, who gets it and say, Hey I'm looking for some people who want to help me drive this forward. Who sticks their hand up.And then start off by leaning into them. So that's kind of step number one. You start to empower them, you get the first set of systems down and then you start to celebrate system wins. when a team member does something, you go, Hey, we just documented this new process. Jenny did an awesome job over here.Hey, Sarah, we normally have this frustration when someone goes on leave, but Sarah documented this process. And then we had John step in and do the task. Hey, Sarah, you're awesome. And you shine a spotlight on that. Maybe you give out a monthly most valued player award to the person who really embraces this idea.that's the best place to start because then you start to go, Hey, we're going to celebrate and showcase, and this is what we want more of. So that's the first step. And then you start to watch out for the. resistant team members. Now, the best thing that you can do for them is firstly lead by example, and then by shining a light on the people that are, doing it.And then you want to give those team members every opportunity to jump on board because new things you have to figure it out. And some people are going to embrace change more than others. And you try and support them. And then you need to really think about every team member and their situation.And the real key is a lot of times team members, their default excuses. Yeah, but I didn't know how, or I didn't know that was expected of me. So one of the first things that you need to do is. To remove that. So by capturing a system and a process, you're then saying, Hey, well, we have a way of doing things.You want to make sure that's never more than one click away from when they actually are doing the task. So if it's, setting up something in the dental practice, we'll have a QR code that they scan on their phone. Maybe it's on the printer or something, and it jumps to the. System or the process after scanning that QR code, or maybe it's setting up the dental practice in the morning and here's the 10 point checklist that needs to be done.It's got to be so obvious. So front and center. So you can remove that. And then the conversation can start to change. Okay, you did know we've got a process. It's listed out here. My expectation is that you follow the process. I don't care if you've got it open or not, if you're doing it right, but since you don't yet know the process, you've got to have it open, but once you get it right, then fine.You don't have to have it open every single time, but at the start, this is my expectation. And that's kind of just the start of how you address it. You've got to remove excuses. Michael: so then what consequences do you implement for team members who continually resist systems? Even though you've, done these systems, you've,Remove the excuses or try to, have you found incentives to be effective in encouraging this type of adherence? David: you can, like I said, have something like the MVP where you might reward the system wins and shine a spotlight. You can even link it towards KPIs either the generation or the following of process.can do a few things like that. I think the reality is. A lot of business owners don't realize up front how important it is to have someone who follows process. And it's not something that they've, incorporated into their recruitment process. Once you get this moving forward, it actually gets a lot easier.Because you look for people who will adopt this way of doing things right from the get go. The challenge is always the existing staff who are used to doing things a certain way, who there may actually be some people in there who aren't processed people. you'll need to navigate through that.Am I saying that you might need to jump in and do a whole bunch of, layoffs? that's definitely the last resort. And I know in certain different industries, finding labors can be challenging, but the reality is a business is infinitely easier when you surround yourself as a business owner with systems driven people.And that goes double if the business owner, or maybe the. dental practitioner owner isn't a systems person. If you don't see yourself as a systems person, then you better make sure that you're surrounded by systems driven people. Because again, business just works better that way.So do have to navigate through it. I've not seen, incentives. work amazingly well, generally you want people to do it, who do this naturally and then naturally organized people and you giving everybody the chance to jump on board and then addressing the ones that don't, oftentimes you're the employer, like the person listening to this, you're paying, they're there to do a job and it's okay for you to have, A set of expectations around the way that you want things done.That's your right as a business owner. But just persist with it. Cause it's, challenging at the start, but you get over this hump and then business just gets so much easier. Michael: Yeah, I like that. Okay. So then you mentioned KPIs to like, do you track and measure whether team members are following the systems specifically as a leader?Like what role do you personally play in and ensuring systems are followed? David: there's a couple of different ways that you can do it depending on the task, depending on who it is. If you've got some sort of project management software in how tasks are signed out, you can look at how they complete the tasks many times they're checking certain things off.You can have a look at error rate depending on if certain tasks causing you some challenges because people aren't following process and it's causing errors. So you can track that error rate and you're looking for reduction in that by following the process. it comes down to this whole idea that, to improve something, you have to track it.So you just have to think about what is it that you want to improve? If you want to improve the fact that they're. Opening the process or successfully completing it. Maybe there's some final step that they have to complete, which confirms that they have reviewed and followed the checklist.And then you're monitoring how often they're doing that, or are they doing that? depend on the situation and the task. Michael: Gotcha, gotcha. I like that. that in mind, like at the end of the day, make sure you're,you let me know, or you send me an email or you do this checklist.And then office manager at the end of the week, we'll look at how many people did this. How do you balance being hands on with empowering your team to take ownership of these systems versus it's seeming like, man, he's just micromanaging everything. David: Yes. Yeah. The main thing there is depending on what the work is, you've got to Systemize all of the things that need to happen in business.There are certain things that kind of just need to happen a certain way. patients will need to be checked in a certain way or they have to fill out certain forms, maybe The practice or the studio needs to be set up a particular way, try and systemize all of the mundane pieces or parts of business that just need to be done a certain way.And sometimes leaving out the creative part or doing those types of systems a little bit more high level, You, you've got to think about who's doing the task and documenting to the level that's required for that person. If they're a skilled operator, you don't need to tell them well, here's exactly how you log into MYOB.Here's the exact buttons that you need to check. it can feel, like you're micromanaging at that level. It's art and science, to try and find the right balance for this. look at something like McDonald's, And McDonald's has systemized every possible aspect down to the minute detail, but they're also running a hamburger business that is taking very unskilled operators, flipping hamburgers.So they've got to go down to that level and it can really feel. Like micromanagement, whereas a lot of people are going to be running, a successful business with high quality team members, and you've mightnot need to get down to that level. A quote that Reed Hastings said from Netflix and he said, when we started systemizing, we wanted to systemize every possible aspect of the business. We wanted to make sure our business was dummy proof. The only thing was once we got it to that level, only dummies wanted to work there. Because they'd gone too far on the systemization spectrum.So again, lot of this has be with, thinking about the situation, the individuals and what they need to do a great job. If it feels like micromanagement chunk up a level, have a higher quality or higher level checklist that has, key milestone levels instead of these super micro details.Michael: Nice. Awesome, David. I appreciate your time. And if anyone has further questions, you can definitely find them on the Dental Marketer Society Facebook group or where can they reach out to you directly? David: Yeah, best to just go to systemology. com and there's some links through to, all of the ways to contact us or follow us on social media.Michael: Awesome. So that's going to be in the show notes below. And David, thank you so much for being with me on this Monday morning episode. David: Pleasure. Thank you.‍

Maintenance is often the most challenging area in a property management business. What if you could automate your maintenance workflow with an in-house, expert AI maintenance coordinator? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with David from Vendoroo (formally Tulu) to talk about AI maintenance coordination and how it could revolutionize the property management industry. You'll Learn [05:25] The AI Revolution [10:51] What can AI Maintenance Coordination Do? [20:58] How Vendoroo Handles Work Orders [27:56] Why You Should Have in-House Maintenance [37:30] Where do Humans Step in? [41:37] Handling Worst-Case Scenarios Tweetables “Property management is a very human business. It's a very relationship-driven business.” “Is it scalable? Is it burning you out? Is it pulling you away from other duties that you need to be? Are you spreading yourself too thin? Great questions to ask if you have growth objectives.” “Residents don't want to talk to a computer. They want to feel that they have a connection to their property manager.” “The first offense creates a little crack between the relationship. The second one, you're losing trust with your owner.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] David: Even people who had in house maintenance coordinators or VAs, good ones, always still feel that they needed to second check all the work. And now when they're seeing the justification and they're seeing the education behind it, they get this sense of like, I can let go. You know why? Because this system is doing maintenance exactly the way that I'm asking it to do maintenance. And they feel that now they're actually back in control.  [00:00:24] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Property Managers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high, trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:01:05] At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:25] And now let's get into the show. All right. So today I'm hanging out with David Normand and Reza Keshavarzi. Did I say your last name right?  [00:01:36] David: We always say it sounds like the great sauce that you would put on a steak. Keshavari. So delicious. [00:01:41] Jason: All right.  [00:01:41] David: Yes. Cool.  [00:01:43] Jason: So David and Reza are from a company called Tulu, which we'll be getting into, which I think are probably revolutionizing maintenance related to AI and our topic today, we're going to be talking about AI and maintenance coordination, maybe getting into some of the current maintenance challenges, what AI could help with, what should be automated, what shouldn't be automated because I think that's a very important thing to cover and how to turn maintenance into a profit center. Before we get into that, why don't we get into some background? So David, why don't you give us the journey? How did you two get into this? How did you event like, how did you start your journey in the property management space? [00:02:24] David: Yeah, great. It's crazy to think about it. It just all started probably about 15 years ago. Like many of you, started a property management company with a buddy of mine. I remember we started off with 80 doors. Got our 1st client, was excited. He left his job at Verizon. I was actually in the banking industry, bidding on subprime auto loans and the 2008 crash happened. And so we all knew what happened after that. And so anyway we actually had some tremendous success and in just over four years we added over 600 doors. Which was a phenomenal growth in our market. And we had a lot of people going, "Hey, what's your secret sauce? what are you guys doing?" Right. And the reality was, is that we just cared, right? We cared harder. We had fiduciary duty. And all of these owners were leaving their other property managers and saying, "Hey, Maybe these guys have it figured out," and we were getting conversions and our close rate was like 80%. [00:03:13] It was really crazy, but something happened and just like many of us, owners started getting frustrated feeling like, the magic was wearing off because at the end of the day, no matter how hard we worked. Those owner statements and those maintenance invoices at the end of the month, I realized were the main source of friction between those long lasting relationships and the same reason why somebody left that previous property manager to come over for the hope of more transparency and maintenance was the same issue that we ran into. [00:03:41] Right. So that led me on this journey of trying to figure out, how do we standardize our fiduciary duty to owners when it comes to maintenance and help them bring transparency and education and understanding to what I feel is really the cornerstone foundation of what a great relationship is? Because no, the building can be full, the mortgage can be paid, but those maintenance bills still come in and there's still the questions.  [00:04:06] "Why does this cost this much? So I had some great opportunities to work went on with Fannie Mae helped them manage their rental portfolio, but still in the back of my head, wanted to try to solve this issue. And all these years later, I get a phone call from somebody that said, "Hey, you need to meet this guy, Reza. He's in the HOA industry. And he's seen a similar issue with lack of transparency. And I think that you guys are trying to solve the same issue. Hey, why don't you meet up?" And I'll, and I'll preface this. This was the fourth introduction to a guy in a fourth type of tech or a company that we try to part with. [00:04:40] And it just shows you the journey of an entrepreneur. Like you never know when that right connection that's going to align with your passions, resources, and understanding happens. And I actually had three other techs that didn't work out before. And I didn't want to bring them to market. [00:04:52] Right. So that's our story. We got introduced to each other and the synergies have been fantastic. And I'm really excited to talk about what we're doing here in the space. So it's been a crazy journey. It's been exciting. Maybe one day I'll write a book down the road about all the things not to do. [00:05:04] Jason: I think every entrepreneur that has a little bit of success could write that book. I'm sure. So cool. David, where do you think we should start? Like there's a revolution right now, this AI revolution, like it's AI everywhere. And and it's moving fast.  [00:05:21] David: Yes.  [00:05:21] Jason: Like really fast. [00:05:22] And it's a bit crazy. And. Everything's changing. There's a million software tools and companies coming out. Maybe AI is making all of them. I have no idea, but like...  [00:05:31] David: 85 percent of all content written online is written by AI these days. So yeah, definitely.  [00:05:35] Jason: Right. There's the fake internet theory that like the majority of the traffic and communication and comments on the internet isn't even real. So it's like we're walking around this fake ghost town online. And we're consuming content and we're like none the wiser in a lot of instances. So my quick take, for those listening, as we're going through this AI revolution, it's exciting. There's a lot of change happening. [00:05:57] We don't want to be left behind. We want to make sure we're paying attention to what's new, what we can use. Everybody's probably used chat GPT once or twice or keeps hearing about it from other people. "They've got a GPT, that thing that you use." Yeah. I used it this morning, right? Like I was trying to figure out something in my Chevy Tahoe. [00:06:15] And I was like, "how do I do this thing in my Tahoe? Like, can you just tell me?" And it can collapse time, but sometimes it's not useful. I think my take on this is that human interaction is going to be a premium. It's going to be at a premium. It's going to be something that really sets people apart because we're moving away from humanity to some degree by leveraging all this tech and AI and all these tools and property management is a very human business. [00:06:43] It's a very relationship driven business. And and I think we'll get into this today. We want to be careful of using technology where we shouldn't or trying to trick people. "Well, look, I'm pretending like it's me, but it's AI. Haha. I tricked you." And what's funny is there's little indicators, like, and we know that this stuff's being used in a lot of different ways, like governments are using this now, like, we don't even know what's real on the news or what's like deep fakes or AI, like they're showing people's like doing interviews and people are zooming in and noticing their rings are disappearing and like weird stuff, right? [00:07:20] David: Yeah.  [00:07:20] Jason: And stuff's going viral on like the internet. And so we're living in this world where we're super skeptical and we wonder if anything's real.  [00:07:28] David: Yeah.  [00:07:29] Jason: Sometimes people are even asking, like, is this AI on a phone call?  [00:07:33] David: Yeah, well, you can't tell the difference now. I'll tell you, our tech team and AI guys they actually played around with me a little bit and they actually use my voice and had me doing work orders and no one could tell it was them. [00:07:44] Not me speaking and giving triage and doing that type of stuff. And I actually I tested it with my wife and I sent her a message over it and she didn't even blink an eye. Didn't even blink an eye. It was crazy. It was that first like aha moment that really when we talk about our fiduciary duty to our clients and ourselves about the power of this and where it's going, right. [00:08:01] And to that point. So when it comes to AI, I think people need to understand that really, the way that we look at chat GBT to me is just the new Google, right? It's Google on steroids. Okay. And so, yeah, for sure. Do we use some chat GBT to understand like, how to write the perfect sentence structure? For sure. [00:08:18] But the cool part about this, Jason, is that what we're doing is: how do we use these models in this education that teach it about fiduciary duty to your owners? That's what gets me excited, right? That's what gets me excited to understand and to think intelligently and to think with thoughtfulness to the owner's pocketbooks when it's considering a decision of how to dispatch for maintenance, right? [00:08:42] Like, isn't that what we're all looking for? That we need a system that every work order that comes in that it goes to a expert maintenance coordinator that we know what that costs. I'm talking expert maintenance coordinator, a person's been in this job for 15 to 20 years that you can send a work order to and they don't make an error. [00:09:00] They're intelligent. They're able to educate, they're able to be client facing. Like there's a real skill set there if you put that on a CV for somebody, right? But that's not what this industry is filled with. Actually, this industry is filled with individuals who are under pressure to find the most affordable maintenance solutions and the most affordable ways to try to find people to run those maintenance solutions. We're allocating the least amount of resources to handle what I consider the highest probability of owner dissatisfaction in the property management relationship with the owner, right? So I have a VA who's 2000 miles away that's responsible for spending a thousand dollars in my owner's money. [00:09:38] And there's all types of potential errors and things that are happening as a result of that. So the way that we look at AI and actually in our business, we just use the word smart a lot. And we try to use that word, that intelligent instead of artificial. Because you know what? There is a lot of human input that has gone into this to teach it how to be smart and to teach it how to consider the fiduciary duty. [00:09:59] So at the end of the day, I would encourage all the listeners here that are going on this journey with us today to understand, not to be skeptical, how to maximize its value, right? And that's really what we're going to be focusing on today and to show you how we're maximizing its value to help us achieve what we call our dream outcome when handling maintenance. [00:10:18] Our dream outcome is as a property manager, I'm starting a company or I'm looking to grow, or I'm hitting those next growth objectives, or I'm looking for ways to be more profitable. What is my dream outcome? And that all circles around having an expert maintenance coordination in my office that is reducing trips costs and considering the fiduciary duty to my clients. [00:10:40] Right? So that's what we'll talk about here today and how we're using AI to achieve that.  [00:10:43] Jason: Got it. Well, let's get into it. So what can AI do and what can't AI do? Like, well, specifically what can Tulu do and what can't Tulu do?  [00:10:54] Where's the line drawn?  [00:10:55] David: Yeah, that's a great question. [00:10:56] So first of all, I always tell everybody this out of the beginning: we are not an outsourced maintenance coordination solution. We're not an outsourced company. Yeah. We are not a vendor. Okay. We're not bringing vendors to your marketplace. Okay. Tulu is your expert in house maintenance coordinator. [00:11:13] So if you're thinking of "I'm hiring a maintenance coordinator" or "I'm building a property management and I need a maintenance coordinator," you now have that. That's that ability to add this onto your software, your system. It's a simple plug and play. You get to remain inside of your portal, you don't have to leave it. [00:11:30] There's not another new portal, all updates, all things are pushing to Buildium and we're pushing to Appfolio. That was a big part of it. There's no new app for the vendors. There's no new app for the clients because we know what's important for them to live inside of there. So what can it do? Well, first of all, it's a leader. [00:11:43] Okay. And being a leader means that it is going to use the information that we capture about your company to lead your VAs, to make expert triage decisions that always consider your fiduciary duty to the owner. So let's give an example right here to break that down. Right. Say a hot water tank comes in. [00:12:03] Okay. Hot water tank's leaking. Okay. First thing it's going to want to understand is what time of the day is it and where is the hot water tank leaking from?  [00:12:09] Jason: Okay.  [00:12:10] David: And then it's going to determine based upon the location of the hot water tank, the type of the hot water tank, which type of vendor at which time is the right one to send out. That is the most cost effective that has the greatest probability of resolving that issue for the best price and meets the satisfaction of the resident. Right. Now that was a mouthful right there. Okay. And if you think about all of the potential errors and data points and things that are involved, the smart maintenance coordinator considers all those and it brings out a triage and it tells the VA "here's the pieces that you're missing. Here's the information that I need. And here's what my suggestion is for you to move forward." So it's amazing at being a leader. And then it's amazing at being an expert about creating communications for the resident and to the vendor to direct them. And then it's also an educator and at the bottom of every work order. [00:12:58] And I hope to be able to show some people it's really cool. We don't believe in just telling people what to do. We should educate them and tell them why they're doing what they're doing. Right. So imagine if you had the best expert maintenance coordinator leaning over the shoulder of every VA that you have standing there and telling them every work order, every time, here's what to do, here's how to do it, and here's why you're doing it. Right. And as a result, we're finding that VAs that come over that are dedicated to the account in two weeks, they're educated. And in six weeks, the majority of them are executing as a high level maintenance expert within six weeks. Of after sitting down and learning the training system, because just as much as it's leading, it's also training and educating. [00:13:38] That is a wow moment for somebody who's been in the space, who's been here for 15 years, managing hundreds and hundreds of people for government entities and stuff and understanding the amount of time and effort and training that goes into somebody. And then all of a sudden they come and they tell you, "Hey, by the way, I got a new job. Thank you for all the training. I'm going to go make $30,000 somewhere else," right? How many times has this happened to me? Hundreds of times, right? And so that's a big part of what we're solving here.  [00:14:02] Jason: So in order to be effective and operate as an expert maintenance coordinator so that your VAs that don't have this knowledge can function as if they have this knowledge, then this has to be programmed, right? Maybe it'd be helpful for, the viewers or listeners of this podcast to find out what are all the inputs that go into this? What did they have to provide and what do you guys provide, so this AI, they can trust it? [00:14:29] David: Yeah. Yeah. Great question, Jason. So first of all, I want to put it on point two to make an emphasis that in this journey that we're all learning about these smart technologies and AI, there's still a big part of human component, right? [00:14:38] And it's like when you chat, when you write something in chat GBT, like you just don't send it without looking at it. Right. You're reviewing it and making sure it's still saying that you want it to say. Right. So everybody rest assured this thing is not, living on its own and there's checks and balances. [00:14:51] But the onboarding on average takes 30 to 45 minutes. Okay. And one of the things that we did is number one is, when it comes to triaging and best practices, there's literally probably about 500,000 work orders of data points that it's considering. And it's an expert in that thing that's saying, "Hey, listen, this is how you should handle every work order that comes in because I've seen this, 20,000 times, and this is the best outcome." [00:15:18] Right. But then what it does is it allows the property manager to talk in natural language. Like you want to talk like a robot. We don't have to write weird code. Just say things. "Hey the owner of one, two, three main street really loves Tom." Tom works on his properties. Comes in 123 main street comes up. It understands what Tom's capabilities are. And it says, "please use Tom to use this." The owner prefers that Tom works on his properties. They have a great relationship. Cool. And so those little tidbits for example, if the heat goes out in unit number one, understand that access has to be in unit number two basement to the HVAC unit, right? [00:15:52] So that's good to know, but why is that important to know? Because most VAs would make a mistake. They say there's no heat. They don't check property notes. They send out the plumber. Plumber is knocking on the door at unit number one. Person says, I don't know where the HVAC unit is. Tenant next door is not home. [00:16:06] Now you just charge your owner for 250 emergency call to go out. The resident still doesn't have heat. They think that you're unorganized. It shows you're unorganized on your owner statement because there's two invoices. "Oh, no, wait, you want to cover that? You're unorganized." So you just ate 250 that you're already not marking up on maintenance and you do that 10 times a month. [00:16:25] Okay. And that's what's going on.  [00:16:27] Jason: And this is where then the owner's like, "I might as well just do it myself because I know everything and it's in my head." So how did they get all of that out of their head? All the little things they know about each property, each multi unit property, what's in the basements, what's..? [00:16:40] David: We have a cool onboarding process. And again, most times about 30-45 minutes, they sit in, it's called building your AI co pilot. Actually, a lot of people dig it. It's cool. It's a cool process. And we will be first, we go into your system and we're able to pull out all your work order data and it organizes all your vendors, and we can tell who all your vendors are and what you're doing based upon the work order types. [00:16:59] We can tell if you're a preferred guy is here. Number one guy is, "Hey. This guy always seems to be working on these properties." So there's a lot of information that we gather. And then you just come in and you're like, "yeah, he's my primary. He's my secondary. Oh, here's this little information about this property." [00:17:13] So you really don't have to get like, like crazy. Like, like, the mailbox is located, like. You can add that stuff later, but in the beginning, it's just like, what are those important rules? I remember this one that really jumped out at me as impactful, a classic mistake, this owner had a lady living in the apartment for 35 years. [00:17:31] Okay, and she's getting old and one of the rules is that no matter what maintenance ticket comes in, "don't ask her to triage. Don't ask her. It's the tenant's responsibility. I love this person. Please send her out and just take care of her. Right?" What a great rule to put into your system that shows the owner that when that work order comes in, He's not getting a call from, and I forget what her name is. [00:17:51] And like, they're asking me to change my light bulbs again. And then he's like, I told you twice not to do this. And next thing he's looking for another property manager. And I always love that example of that rule. So that's what you're looking as far as the information you're giving us takes about 30 to 45 minutes. [00:18:03] For people who have anywhere between, 150 to 350 properties. If you start having, 500, 600, a thousand, I would definitely allocate up to two hours and onboarding for sure.  [00:18:13] Jason: Okay. That's really fast when it comes to rolling out a new technology. Yeah. It's ridiculously fast.  [00:18:19] David: Yeah. [00:18:19] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Extremely quick. So basically you have all this learning and understanding that's going into who your preferred vendors are. We know how to handle the maintenance work orders. There's no like integration that has to happen. And so as this triage is coming through, you're getting this expert level triage and you can add things down the road. [00:18:38] You can add it, but how to handle the work orders as we say, there's really nothing new in maintenance. What's new is: "what's the NT for the property? Are there any special conditions that we need to know? Right? What are your residents' responsibilities and what are you responsible for?" Once you have those four questions answered, how to handle the hot water tank, at what time to hit on the hot water tank, how to, how to repair this door, how to do that. [00:19:02] Those true principles of maintenance are true for everybody, if that makes sense, right? So, so that's a big part of the value that you get that You're hiring an expert maintenance coordinator. If you were to hire him, you wouldn't necessarily be telling him. "Hey, this is how you replace a doorknob." [00:19:18] He should already know that when you hired him. Right. So think of like it that way when you're considering us as a technology.  [00:19:24] Jason: So, a human maintenance coordinator, the challenge would be, there's no way they can remember every detail about every property, right?  [00:19:32] David: Yeah,  [00:19:32] Jason: it's not. Which means they would have to keep notes. [00:19:35] Let's say they've already got a decent amount of notes somewhere. Might be in the property management software, maybe they've got their own, I don't know, database of something. Is there the ability to pull in all that information?  [00:19:46] David: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. To grab those notes out. A lot of people have the ability to export it. [00:19:51] They have a good note file or something like that. We get those, we take that information and it can just be pushed up into the system for sure. So yeah, the onboarding it, it can be, again, some people come in and say, "all I have is single family houses." Everything's pretty straightforward. [00:20:03] Other people send over an Excel list. "Here's my property notes at the property levels" and upload them. So that's the cool part where. You ingest into the system. There's not a lot of data, manual input. It's reading it and assigning it. And that's where we're using technology to help even improve the onboarding process that you talked about, right? [00:20:19] You think about people wear t shirts, like, I survived the Yardi onboarding process, right? Like, technology has come a long way to help improve that process, and that was a big part that we focused on.  [00:20:28] Jason: Yeah, that's wild. So once you've got them onboarded and they're in your system, the AI knows pretty much everything about the property, but maybe it doesn't, maybe there's some things it doesn't know. [00:20:41] And so work order comes up. You're working on something and it's still just in the property manager's head or it's still in the business owner's head or maybe they don't even know yet, but it runs there. It runs into an issue. It's like it has a question maybe, or it doesn't. It needs to know some more stuff. [00:20:57] I don't know. What happens in those scenarios? [00:21:00] David: Yeah, this is a great one. So, all right, so let's talk about the life cycle of a work order. Right. And let's everybody just understand that there still is a human component involved in this, right? Every property manager has a dedicated, we call them a remote team member, who's now this expert maintenance coordinator at the cost of a remote team member. [00:21:16] Now they're able to execute at a very high level. But there are going to be things that they're faced that they don't understand. So they have the ability to communicate with you one on one, or we also have this process internally that they have this ability to go, "I need a request from the expert in the loop" and the expert in the loop is you know, invoice review, complication that they're saying that the AI is not clear on them and it's asking for additional support. And so they can bump that up to individuals, myself, and there's other members of the team members that are big part of this and they can get expert level triage inside of there, to say, "Hey, listen, I'm facing with this vendor issue. They need 25 percent upfront. The job is only 500. I'm not understanding what to do here. The building is located and they're saying access is weird. They need to bring something in." There are complications that still involve human understanding. And so that expert in the loop solves that piece in there. [00:22:07] And also speaking of humans, we believe that residents and vendors still need to speak to a human. Okay. Super important. Okay. So the value that we have is that we're able to create expert level triage, According to their specifications and the training model and all the great things and the automation and the text messages that are written for them and the codes that are written for them the emails, all those things. [00:22:31] So, if we can automate at a very high level and free up our people to be able to provide support on the phone to the vendor on the field, or to actually talk to a resident, everybody knows this and I talk to everybody, guys, residents don't want to talk to a computer. They want to feel that they have a connection to their property manager and that when they call in, a lot of people have not even adapted technology for anybody who has, residents have been with them with a while and they're used to talking to Janet, they're used to talking to tell him inside and next thing you can say to them, "Oh, we have a new maintenance system. And by the way, you have to talk to the system." They're like, "okay. This is lame," right? Like, so that personal connection and we have a saying inside of the office that we keep your residents and your vendors within arm's length of you, right? It's communicating. They're using your property management name. [00:23:20] They're speaking on your behalf. This is an extension of your office. This is your maintenance coordinator. Don't think of this as a vendor. Don't think this is an outsourced maintenance solution that you're setting all your maintenance to some company that's sourcing vendors or bringing them in and doing every, this is your in house maintenance team. [00:23:38] So always consider that when you're thinking about Tulu, real people. In house maintenance coordinator just powered by AI enabled execute at a crazy high level.  [00:23:46] Jason: So, yeah. So how do tickets get into the maintenance system? Like how are they initiated? Do they still have to be answering their own phone calls? [00:23:56] Are they just putting it into their property manager software? And then Tulu is going to like start taking some action. What communication does Tulu facilitate or take over if we're going to be having still needing some humans to be in Tulu allows us to increase the amount of communication and care that we show. [00:24:13] Where do we draw the line? Like, where is Tulu stepping in and doing some communication and where do we need team members to be doing communication?  [00:24:21] David: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So let's just go through the life cycle of a work order for everybody. I think that's what everyone really understands when they're all thinking about this. [00:24:28] Okay, let's give me a work order from start to finish. Right? So no change to your residents. No change to anybody. They log into their portal, Buildium, Appfolio, RentVine, whatever they're using. They submit a maintenance work order, that maintenance work order through their system is dispatched to the Tulu maintenance coordinator, expert maintenance coordinator. [00:24:46] All the magic is happening, all the triage, everything is taking place, and inside of the property management software, they're going to see. Work order.  [00:24:53] Jason: And is that dispatched through via email? API? Yep.  [00:24:56] David: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just through email? Yep. Set up as simple. You can set it up as a maintenance coordinator and as the maintenance coordinator is set up and the email comes in and it pings out and that creates the work order and starts to process through the, yeah. [00:25:08] Yep. Cool. And then the property manager will see that the work order has been it's in triage on the status of their system. Then it's assigned, then the vendor will be assigned there. And then from there, the updates, when it's scheduled that we call it the who, what, and the why, right? [00:25:25] What's going on, who's doing it and what's being done to progress this for. That's a note. You're constantly getting those notes. Now, the cool part about this, Jason. is behind the scenes. All of those text messages and phone calls and emails that we call the noise that are between the residents and the vendors and everybody are all being captured in a system behind the scenes. [00:25:45] Right. Super value there, right? If a resident is a little bit upset about something or you have some questions, "Hey guys, can you hand me the phone call this one to show me the text messages," right? Communications are big part. So we capture all those communications inside there at any time that the owner of the property manager wants to pull them. [00:26:00] That's great. Then the work order is completed. The completion, quick question. So  [00:26:05] Jason: all this communication between tenants and vendors, unless they're using some sort of magical system That the vendors have to be in and that the tenants are logged into. And it's like seeing all this, how does Tulu capture that? [00:26:18] How does it know that the vendor is communicating with the tenant or the tenant? Okay. So it would be any point.  [00:26:24] David: Yeah. Good point. Any point that the the tenant. Is communicating or the vendor or just communicate with two of those. So if the vendor happened to communicate directly with the tenant, it would not capture that part, right? [00:26:34] That's their phone to phone with that part, right? So it's when the resident or the tenant is communicating with the maintenance coordinator. And as we all know, tenants and vendors love to communicate by text message, right? That's their number one thing to do. So, it's really cool for vendors too, because as we know, a bunch of vendors, they hate. "I don't want to work in another app." Vendors can take pictures from their phone. They can upload estimates from their phone. The estimate comes in and it's actually turned into this really pretty estimate because we know vendors estimates are notorious for being on the back of a paper and hand scratched, right? [00:27:06] So it actually creates into a brand new Tulu estimate. And so your owners get transparency into pricing and labor. And it's standardized and everything looks clean. And so yeah, vendors love it because they're not lazy, but they're busy guys. And instead of going home and trying to do a whole bunch of paperwork, they can now just generate an estimate, take a picture and shoot it right through. [00:27:22] So, yeah.  [00:27:23] Jason: Because the challenge that there's a lot of communication involved. And so usually to decrease the amount of communication, they're trying to figure out how do we get the vendors to just talk to the tenants directly to collapse time? But if you have AI, then my guess is that Tulu will still just act like that middle person because the vendor can communicate with them, they can immediately text you, then Tulu texts the tenant, then it's just doing it real time. [00:27:45] You don't have to wait on a human being in your office to like make this communication happen. So you're like, "well, we're so slow. Let's just get them to talk to each other." The AI is making this happen. Is that accurate?  [00:27:56] David: Huge point right here is, and man you really hit off the nail on the head on this one point here. [00:28:01] The amount of people that we are seeing that they're using vendors to perform triage in this space is actually alarming. Okay. Alarming. All right. Vendors should not be performing our triage. They should not be the ones trying to figure out what is going on. They're not our client facing people. Maybe some guys are good. [00:28:20] your in-house guys, goods or whatever. The majority of people are using this, right? The beauty of the system is: Do we have enough information that is captured? From the resident, the property manager that considers the needs of the owner to formulate the correct direction to the vendor so that they can show up with the resources that they need to fix the job the right time or show up educated about what they're there to fix. [00:28:41] Jason: So let's talk about this real quick. Like vendors should not be doing triage and why not? Like, like what are the obvious ramifications here? Well, vendors, that's like asking a surgeon if you need surgery, right? That's how he makes his money.  [00:28:55] "That's the solution is surgery. We should chop that out, like, let's cut that thing out and I get paid thousands and thousands of dollars."  [00:29:02] David: Or how about this one, Jason, on an owner's report. I see a cost for so many times you see a cost for a maintenance guy, "unable to resolve expert needed." well, why? Because the maintenance vendor was sent out to do the triage. [00:29:15] That's not fiduciary duty to the owner. If we had the right information, we could have avoided that one trip. So we have some really cool case studies. I'd love to show people that out of like 260 work orders, we have one right here, a client that signed up with us. And so out of that thing here let's see. [00:29:31] They completed 194 work orders. 17 unnecessary trips were canceled. Wow. Okay. 17 unnecessary trips and 15 of those work orders had an immediate reduction in price because they said that the wrong resource was assigned to that. So think about that. 17 different numbers.  [00:29:48] Jason: So if that, if they have an in-house maintenance team, you're decreasing your your cost deploying these texts, going out and doing stupid work, like significantly. If you are using third party vendors, then there's always an expense. If you're sending anybody out, unless you're like, go do a bid, or something like this, but that's costing the vendor, which they're going to be more frustrated with you. [00:30:09] So you're freeing that up or they're charging you for it. "Oh, well, if I go out, I charge, right?" Yeah.  [00:30:15] David: I'll give you an example. We just saved owner of a pad split property who wanted to replace the refrigerator. The request came in and they asked for three estimates, okay, to replace the refrigerator. [00:30:28] Okay, the suggestion came back that basically said in a nutshell, summarize this, "why are you sending three different appliance vendors who are all going to charge a trip fee to go look at a refrigerator when a Home Depot program should be used and the cost of refrigerator should be 860? To factor all those costs in, it would have been about 1, 400. I don't understand why you're doing this. Please explain, right?" Talk about fiduciary duty to the owner.  [00:30:51] Jason: This is why owners get frustrated and they're like, "I might as well just do it myself." [00:30:55] David: " Because I knew better. I would go to Home Depot. Everyone knows to order a refrigerator from Home Depot, right? Unless there's special circumstances." And now imagine this, and this is where we're going with this, Jason. At the end of each month, these owner reports go out to all these owners, and owners sit down and they call up the property manager, and we always hear people talking about this at every conference. [00:31:14] "Oh, I don't want to answer that phone call. I know what this is about, right?" And the property manager is scrambling at the end of the month to call the maintenance coordinator, dig into work order notes and justify why did this cost this much? "Explain this to me," right? So we have this really cool report that's coming out that basically, including in the property owner, It would let you know that, Hey, you had six jobs that were able to send a handyman this month. [00:31:38] Here's what's going on. You had two emergencies, two replacements, little asterisks that said, "Hey, this trip fee was 120. Why? Well, it required two people because there was a toilet that was being replaced on the third floor so they requested an extra hour of labor to be able to bring that toilet up because it was too like..." intimate details so that your owners are feeling like they're getting this like this whole transparency, unbelievable transparency, this report, the property manager doesn't have to waste at the end of the month, which I used to send away two to three days at the beginning of each month, just to answer phone calls and questions.  [00:32:12] Jason: Right. Yeah. It's like "why did it cost us much? Why?" [00:32:14] Like they can just see it.  [00:32:16] David: Yeah. "Why didn't you send Tom?" "Well, I did send Tom to snake the drain because it was clogged in the master bathroom. We set his limit at an hour. He used a 17, 25 foot power snake. And we said, if you can't get this done within an hour, then we need to send Roto Rooter." "Oh, I get that. You really did try to save me money in the beginning. Yeah. And Roto Rooter found that 35 feet down the thing was a clogged diaper or something like that." That's what owners need to understand. And to break that down in every work order is a tremendous strain on property managers and our system in V2 that's coming very quickly. [00:32:52] I was actually working on this morning. Those owner reports will be generated then if every month that explain intimate details about the thought process. and the costs and any decisions behind breaking it down into category for every maintenance work order type for their owners. Huge value. Imagine going to a client, a new client, and you're presenting against somebody else and they say, "Hey, how do you handle maintenance?" [00:33:14] And you pull that report out and you put it down on the table.  [00:33:16] Jason: You're like, "like this is the level of detail. Nobody else is doing this." The maintenance coordinator get on the phone every time and saying, "let me walk you through all these charges and why they happened and what did." And like, how many people listen to this right now? [00:33:31] I'm like, I know you're listening to this going, "if I never had to do that again, that would be the best thing ever. Ever. Like I've never had to have that uncomfortable conversation with the owner." Like it's all in there. It's all there. Like it makes sense.  [00:33:43] David: "Here's why we are your property manager. And here's the value that I'm giving to you in the transparency to maintenance." [00:33:50] That's a huge burden. It's a significant pain point. And we know this Jason, the first offense creates a little crack between the relationship. The second one, you're losing trust with your owner and they're beginning Googling "other property managers around me." The third one. You're just waiting for them to look and to go somewhere else. [00:34:07] So the relationship is falling apart. Right. And we are trying to know that  [00:34:11] Jason: You got a 600 door business in four years.  [00:34:14] David: Yes.  [00:34:15] Jason: Like, and so, and you have probably heard countless stories of people if they're switching companies, it's really rare that people switch companies. Usually things have to be pretty bad and maintenance that's in communication. [00:34:27] Those that's number one factors, communication and why people leave. And so this allows you to free up a massive amount of time so you can actually be on the phone with the people when you need to be on the phone and stop wasting time with all of these repeat calls, repeat requests, what's going on with this, and yeah, this would just save so much time. [00:34:44] David: Well, think about growth, Jason, right? So the three things that we're solving for, number one is we're protecting fiduciary duty to the owners, justifying maintenance costs and reducing the cost of expert in house maintenance coordination and making it scalable. Yeah. Okay. [00:34:58] So now if I can have an expert maintenance coordinator that I add to my office, there's a fixed cost to it. I can scale infinity and not have to worry about hiring and training and staffing and issues and all these problems in global, right? My fiduciary duty to my owners, I got reporting and transparency. [00:35:17] Maybe my property manager now, instead of being able to manage 250 doors, maybe they can manage 350 doors. Isn't that cool? Like that's where we're going with this stuff for sure.  [00:35:25] Jason: Yeah, it definitely would make a business as maintenance coordination, maybe infinitely scalable. So, okay. I know somebody that's listening, that's very detail oriented and their brain doesn't think like a spider web, like mine is going, "Hey, you guys never finished the example scenario because Jason derailed it." [00:35:43] And so we've got the maintenance request. It's come in.  [00:35:46] David: Yeah.  [00:35:47] Jason: So take, let's go back to that.  [00:35:49] David: Okay. Yeah. Maintenance request comes in the triage takes place. The information is gathered once the information is gathered, and it fills the requirements of what they believe is the right decision. [00:36:00] At that point, the scheduling takes place. Okay.  [00:36:03] Jason: Okay. So which pieces of Tulu doing?  [00:36:05] David: All of this.  [00:36:05] Jason: Okay. Okay.  [00:36:07] David: Okay. Okay. So then we're scheduling and then the work is completed. Quality pictures are received. If the resident is satisfaction, you have happiness received, vendors invoices received, and that's all uploaded into the system. [00:36:20] And then at that point, the property manager can pay the vendor directly if they have a great relationship and maybe they want to pay them in whatever way they do. A lot of people like paying their vendors, that's fine. Or they can reimburse the Tulu system. If they just want to pay one vendor for the rest of their life, and then Tulu will pay the vendor for them directly. [00:36:38] So it is from intake to vendor payment, all updates, all communications, all triaging, everything.  [00:36:46] Jason: Tulu does all of it. Does it all.  [00:36:48] David: It is your perfect maintenance coordinator. What we call the dream scenario. It has the ability to triage, troubleshoot, knowledgeable about vendor pricing, it's client facing and experience and client facing means that you can even set the parameter that said, "Hey, if anything is over my NTE, I would actually like you to generate your justification as to why think about this and send it out to my owner." Now imagine your owner getting this super email that's like, "Hey, listen, we have this problem. So the five to fancy, here's the steps that it took place to do."  [00:37:15] Jason: So like the amount that's in the agreement that says like anything under 500 in a single month, like we have a right to just take care of it. Right. Or something like this property managers having their agreements. Okay. So, so where do they need humans then? Where do humans come in all of this? [00:37:31] David: Humans need to be there to provide expert level, the same expert level triage that the system is providing, we need humans in there to make sure, first of all, it's accurate. There is a component of that, right? We're reviewing this and training it, learning it, but as we talked about before, humans need to be there. [00:37:47] We love that they have a great relationship because they're an extension of the office with their RTM, right? With their property manager and that RTM, they get to know each other. Humans are needed to talk to the residents and humans are needed for vendor support. Okay. Vendors don't want to call into a robot when their hand is in a sewer line from the field asking about, "Hey, I need help and direction. What's going on?" [00:38:07] They don't want to hear "press two if you're unhappy with this service," like they don't want to hear that. That's where humans come in.  [00:38:13] Jason: Got it. Okay. So what are some of the results that you're seeing when you're installing in this into businesses? Like what's shifting? Because I'm hearing some things like it's going to decrease the time you're spending on the phone with your owner. [00:38:25] So it's going to decrease the amount of time doing communication. You won't have to spend time doing triages. It sounds like a large piece of maintenance coordination is going to be taken care of. It sounds like staffing costs can be reduced. You tell me what are clients noticing once they get this installed over their previous systems of using a stack of tech tools to try and get their team to be able to handle this stuff? [00:38:47] David: I think in the beginning and I think that it's cool in our relationship is just to hear people come back after the first month and go, "I can't believe it. Like I went an entire month and like, I was not involved in maintenance the way that I feel that I needed to be to make sure that all these things were taken care of. And I'm finding myself with like 20 hours extra a month." And we're like "yes, go grow. Go add more doors. Go show greater value to your clients. Maybe call your client that you haven't been calling in a month because you've been so busy." Right. So, so those are really cool. I think from a cost perspective, they are appreciating. [00:39:24] And I'm believing that. Even people who had in house maintenance coordinators or VAs, good ones, always still feel that they needed to second check all the work. So even though you're giving to somebody, they never were able to detach themselves from me. [00:39:37] And now when they're seeing the justification and they're seeing the education behind it, they get this sense of like, I can let go. You know why? Because this system is doing maintenance exactly the way that I'm asking it to do maintenance. And they feel that now they're actually back in control. If that makes sense. Or they're giving it away, but they're actually feeling they're in more control, if I'm making sense there. That's one of the coolest things is that they feel now they have their pulse on every work order where versus before they have to dive into search. Now they know that their requirements are just laid over every work order. So those are some big ones that I'm seeing, especially for those people who really show their value to their owners in the fact that they say, "I'm involved in every work order, every job." That's a great value prop. It really is. Is it scalable? Is it burning you out? Is it pulling you away from other duties that you need to be? Are you spreading yourself too thin? [00:40:29] Great questions to ask if you have growth objectives, right? Scalable solution. And basically what we're doing is we're allowing the best in the business who are property managers who have created great relationships to duplicate themselves. And that's exciting for them to see. I think that they're like, "wow it's thinking like me."  [00:40:45] Jason: This really sounds like a serious competitive advantage for a property manager that adopts this over any other competitors that don't  [00:40:54] David: Jason, I'm going to a new client pitch and now I'm knowing that the guy next to me is sitting down showing him, "this is how I handle maintenance. This is how I'm keeping your cost down. This is the process. And that new report's coming in our V2. I was actually working some funnels that this morning. And if you're laying that down and then you're walking in behind them and the person says, "well, how do you handle maintenance?" [00:41:15] "Well, I personally call you on every maintenance ticket." We're witnessing the greatest generational movement of wealth and real estate properties from retiring baby boomers to the next generation to their kids who are all grown up in a technology world that are demanding transparency and reporting and it's just going to be the new standard, Jason, a hundred percent. [00:41:34] It's going to be the new standard for sure.  [00:41:36] Jason: Okay. We probably got somebody listening. They're super skeptical. They're like, there's no way. And they're going to throw us some crazy scenario that came up recently. And I'm sure you've heard some of these. So how would you address that? Like some sort of like, "well, what if it's like this and this," and it sounds like worst case scenario. [00:41:54] The AI just says, expert in the loop. Like it's, it raises his hand in some way and says, "Hey, I could use a human over here."  [00:42:00] David: Here's one that actually, as a guy who in my history, we had portfolios, like 30,000 properties. [00:42:06] So I've done probably over 500,000 work orders. In my career. Okay?  [00:42:10] Jason: More than most of the people that are probably listening to this. Yes.  [00:42:13] David: Yes. And as a result, just because of the size of the inventories that we used to manage the other day, a resident submitted a maintenance work order in and said, "my microwave is not working. And I assume it's because my gas stove is not turned on. And does my gas stove need to be turned on in order for the gas to flow up to my microwave?" Okay. True. True. Okay. All right. True maintenance work order. The the smart system picked that up and now imagine a VA facing that without any knowledge or an experience that's going to be an email to the property manager, a phone call to somebody, or maybe they make a mistake because they're 2000 miles away and they don't have any contacts and they sent out a plumber to go investigate. And the owner says, "why are you sending out a plumber for this?" Right? Right. Okay. The system picked up and it literally educated and trained. And it said that gas has no relevance whatsoever to a microwave solution. This is an incorrect thing, right? And that, when I saw that one, it makes mistakes. [00:43:04] Don't get me wrong. It's not perfect, but when I saw it pick up on that one, I said, man, I said, this is getting exciting that it picked up on that. So I would ask that person to come and just experience it and look at a little bit and understand guys, right? This is exciting. This is new. It's learning. [00:43:19] We're developing and it's improving daily. There's still a lot of human oversight. There's still a VAs that involved. We're getting expert maintenance coordination down to a price point that is affordable for everybody, scalable for everybody. And the biggest point at the end of the day, your owners are going to feel that every maintenance work order comes in, it's being handled by the best maintenance process in the industry. [00:43:39] And that's what you're going to be able to offer them as a property manager to compete against other competition you have in your market. And I think that's a good value prop. So.  [00:43:46] Jason: Yeah, definitely. So is there anything else related to turning maintenance into a profit center that we should cover? [00:43:52] David: Yeah the first step going into a profit center is realizing that the average person is paying between 16 to 28 dollars per door to manage their maintenance, right? If we get that down to the correct number, and I'd love to have anybody come through and we'll run the analytics for them and we'll give them a pricing model for that just off the bat, the first profit center that we're creating is what if I'm able to reduce that by 50 percent your cost, that's an immediate profit center, right? [00:44:16] That's profit center number one. And then we can look at profit centers number two, that like, all right, now I can add on if I want to add on to my markup or we have some other ways that we can show them how to. But the first profit center needs to be is what do you know how much you are paying per door to manage maintenance? [00:44:34] Take all of your staff, all of your VAs, all of your systems, all your after hour services, take all those pieces, add them all up and divide them by the number of doors that you have. So every door that you bring on, it's costing me $27 to handle maintenance emergency services. Okay. Know that number, and let's have a talk. [00:44:54] Jason: You got to build that calculator on your website.  [00:44:56] David: It's coming.  [00:44:57] Jason: A lot of calculators like that to help people calculate their cold lead marketing costs or whatever. And as soon as they fill that out, they're like, "okay, I'll sign up. Like this is ridiculous. What I've been doing?"  [00:45:06] David: We have that in product right now. [00:45:07] We have a couple of pieces. We did the finish on it, but that's coming out where people can just understand what they're paying per door. But give us a call up. We'll walk you through the exercise. We'll show you what you're costing. Think about that as your first profit center, Jason. And then we can talk about other ones and we help give some people some advice still. [00:45:22] Jason: So David, you have a lot of knowledge and experience. How much of your knowledge and experience has gone into bringing this AI up to understanding what you know?  [00:45:32] David: I've been working on this for 12 years. Of putting the data and the learnings. And again, I've been fortunate guys where it was just my path. [00:45:39] It was my journey through this, where I've got to work for some huge outfits. I had my own consulting company for seven years. I was working with some of the biggest SFR groups in the nation, guys with 10,000-20,000 doors. And I'm just fortunate to understand the amount of data. So, I've put my blood, sweat and tears into this, but at the core of that Jason, my blood, sweat, and tears. [00:46:00] Is that, 15 years ago when I was brand new in this property management space, I had a broker tell me one time that after the sale of the property is done, the success of the owner is no longer your business or mine. And it's up to them. The sale is done. And they told me that when they walked away and that bothered me to this day, it bothered me that the fiduciary duty that individuals are giving to us to manage in some cases, millions of dollars of their money and assets and portfolios, right? And what type of products or services are we demanding of this industry? That we would demand of, let's say if I gave 50,000 to my broker to invest in the stock market for me, what type of services and technology and platforms am I demanding of that person, education, schooling, name brands, right? [00:46:45] But yet, are we demanding that same of us in our fiduciary duty to somebody that's giving over maybe their retirement to us their kids', future, college... you hear all these people, "why'd you get into real estate?" "I want to create a college fund for my kids." And after two years, the guy's like, "this is not what I signed up for. This is the worst mistake I ever made. And I'm backing out of, buying more properties because of challenges," right? That's what I'm driven by. And I've always been driven by that. It's my curse. And so I'd have to say there's a hundred percent of me in this Jason, for sure.  [00:47:13] Jason: Awesome. And it, this will outlive you like AI doesn't die. [00:47:17] And this is this not to be grim, but this is the concern. Like anybody has when they're signing up for a business, they're like, all right, "how much is reliant on just this one person? How much is reliant on that key person I'm interacting with?" Right. And the AI is not a person. Right? [00:47:34] And so, yeah, so that's really fascinating to think about. Like you've built all that into it and it has immediate, instant expertise. It's not like, "Hey, well, let me go call Tom and let me go check with Fred or let me..." like all the data it has, it's there and it's instant. [00:47:54] David: What's the difference between an emergency of a hot water tank that's leaking in a basement with a permeable stone floor versus emergency hot water tank that's located in the utility closet on the first floor? [00:48:04] One doesn't have to necessarily require a person to go out because there's no damage to prevent with water leaking down there. But the other one is leaking onto the floor and damaging your drywall. So these conditions have to be taking place. Locations of hot water tanks, like there's, I can nerd out in this and I'd love to sit down with anybody and drink beers and talk about all the millions of different maintenance things that I ran through. [00:48:24] But at the end of the day, when you're able to show your owner, "we acted as an expert." That's the guy that's going to say to his buddy when they're just having a drink, "call these guys up to manage your property because they're an expert in the thing." And that's what we're trying to bring to the industry for sure. [00:48:37] Jason: So this brings a level of expertise that the business owner, the property manager, the maintenance coordinator, and certainly the VA's just would not possess.  [00:48:48] David: You're talking 15 years, over 500,000 work orders worth of data points, learning and understanding from commercial, multifamily, single family across the board, best practices. [00:49:01] And it's for somebody who wants to imagine now a person can start a property management company tomorrow onboard Tulu. And they're immediately a veteran in the maintenance industry. Immediately.  [00:49:12] Yeah. No learning curve. You're operating and executing as the best maintenance coordinator in the industry starting tomorrow. [00:49:19] That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. Really cool.  [00:49:22] Jason: This is really, it's really wild. So now my brain's like, how can I get experts, how can I clone Tulu, but make an operator version of Tulu for running a property managed business. Or I can make it.  [00:49:32] David: Yeah there's, there, there are offshoots on this. [00:49:34] I would have to say, and I do want to tell anybody that in this space that we always say that property managers are safe because you know what the property managers do a great job of doing. You guys do a really good job at building relationships and creating value in your local markets. [00:49:46] Right. Focus on that. Don't get pulled into maintenance, right? Maintenance and that stuff can be automated. There are best practices. Don't struggle to have to be an expert there. Show your value and the resources and tools that you have. Lower your overhead. Produce better results. Be at networking events. [00:50:03] Shake more hands. Talk to more people. Sell more homes. Add more doors. Shine where you shine. Brokers shine when they're out in front of people shaking hands and having expensive salads over a nice glass of chardonnay and closing deals, right? Let us flip the toilets and do it well for you. [00:50:18] That's what I say.  [00:50:19] Jason: Awesome. Okay, cool. David, if they're interested in Getting started. How do they find out about Tulu? You can go right to our website  [00:50:26] David: at trytulu. com. And if anybody wants to email me personally, david.norman.trytulu.Com. I'll connect you with our sales team and set you up on a personal demo. I'll walk you through it. I promise I won't bring so much energy. I'm an energy guy. It's just my calling this space to be in the maintenance and I love to doing what we're doing and seeing owners go "yes!" Seeing property managers go "yes!" And we're not trying to replace anybody. We're just trying to help people honor their fiduciary duty to their owners. And that's my mission. That's what I'm driven by.  [00:50:56] Jason: Yeah. Fantastic. So try Tulu, T U L U. Dot com.  [00:51:02] David: Yeah.  [00:51:02] Jason: All right. Try it out.  [00:51:04] David: All right.  [00:51:04] Jason: David, thanks for coming on the DoorGrowShow podcast. Appreciate you.  [00:51:08] David: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Jason. Always great. Looking forward to the show. Until next time.  [00:51:11] Jason: All right. So if you are a property management entrepreneur and you are wanting to add doors, you get maintenance off loaded, off your plate, and you want to focus on growth and figuring out how to get more doors, you want to join the DoorGrow mastermind, our growth accelerator is all about that. [00:51:29] We are really good at optimizing businesses for growth using our rapid revamp class, where we clean up quickly, all of the front end stuff that is causing you to like kill trust and leaking trust and preventing deals. And then we give you the right strategies. We've got at least seven different growth engines that we can help build into your business that you can stack that will feed you unlimited leads without having to spend any money on advertising or marketing expense. [00:51:55] You just need people and it actually decreases the amount of time those people will spend If they're following working on the warm leads and the stuff that we would get you to do instead of cold leads, which take a lot more time. So we also have our super system level of our mastermind. This is where we're focused on ops, operations, helping your operator. That key person that's going to run the entire business for you, Mr. or Mrs. Visionary Entrepreneur, and they will help take your business to the next level. We can coach and support your operators, your BDMs, your salespeople, or you, the business owner to make this business infinitely scalable so that you can go to the next level and add a lot of doors. So reach out to us, let us assess your situation and see if we can help. [00:52

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT There is a lot of glass in public and commercial spaces, and the pro AV and digital signage industries have been applying all kinds of technologies to turn things like windows and dividers into part-time or full-time displays. In most cases, those jobs have come with compromises. There are films that might start curling at the corners, or discolouring. Mesh systems that look pretty good from the front, but terrible from the rear. And most recently, super-thin foils that need to be adhered to one side of glass panes. So what if the LED display was actually part of architectural-grade glass? That's the premise of a company called Clear Motion Glass - a Pennsylvania-based technology start-up that comes at the business from the angle of commercial glass. Clear Motion is a spin-out from William Penn Performance Glass, which has for many years been making and supplying laminated and tempered glass for commercial buildings. Unlike other products on the market, Clear Motion's LED displays are sandwiched inside sheets of laminated safety glass - so when a building goes up or is being retrofitted, the glass panels that go in are also active, highly-transparent displays. I had a good chat with Todd Stahl, a glass industry veteran who runs both the established and start-up businesses. Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts. TRANSCRIPT David: Todd, thank you for joining me.  Todd Stahl: Hey Dave. Yeah, I appreciate you having us on. It's going to be a pleasure to talk about some LED glass with you.  David: Yeah, tell me about the company. I saw you guys at DSE back in December. You were busy almost the whole time. So I didn't really have the time or the chance to have any kind of a detailed LED conversation, but I know that the company has not been around that long, but it's grown out of a pretty well-established “performance glass company.” Todd Stahl: Yeah. A little bit about the history there. So, at Clear Motion Glass, we're making the LEDs inside of the glass. I came across the LED glass around June of 2022, so I've had it for just about two years. The parent company is William Penn Performance Glass, and that's another company I started in 2011. We deal with high-end architectural Glass.  So, a cliffnote version: We go to the top architects in the country, and they're like, “Hey, who are you designing for?” And they'll say to us, “Hey, we want some really cool glass to go in the elevators for the Empire State Building.” So we got into the architectural space with glass, and actually, we'll William Penn, who was just voted one of the top 50 glass producers in North of North America. So something that we're definitely pretty proud of around here.  Then I came across LED glass around 2022, I thought it was one of the coolest things I've ever seen put inside a glass, and I wanted to be a part of it. David: So when you say you came across it, what do you mean by that?  Todd Stahl: So, there's another product in glass, another glass product that's been around, I'm going to say right around since 2000. It's a glass that goes frosted to clear from the turn of a switch, Switchable glass. So there's a company called Smart Film Blinds, and they were an applied film company that would actually take that, what we would call switch glass, but they just took the film and applied it to existing glass, and it was owned by Alan and Tracy Ackerman, and then they had this connection with LED Glass they weren't quite sure what to do with it. They knew it was really cool. And it had a chance to be really something big, but they were more of a film company, and then he and I got introduced, through a need that we had for some smart film, the switchable film, and then eventually we had a partnership for a while. Then we decided basically that I'll stick with the glass part, what I'm best at, and he'll stick with the film part, which was what they were best with. But that's how I got introduced to it, right around two years ago.  David: What you're marketing now is Clear Motion Glass. Is that your own product or are you reselling somebody else's manufactured product?  Todd Stahl: We have partners overseas, such as a company called Filmbase. That's where we get the actual LED grid or LED mesh. We bring that to my facility in York, Pennsylvania, which is in the south-central Pennsylvania area, we're 20 minutes south of Hershey, close to Harrisburg, and then we actually fabricate everything as a finished panel here. So we'll make the glass, we'll get the interlayer components. We have a laminating machine that actually works by pulling a vacuum and heating it up to certain temperatures. After that, it comes out, and we have a clear LED glass display.  David: So laminated glass is something that's been around forever. So this is just basically sandwiching the mesh in between sheets of laminated glass?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. We're definitely making a sandwich component. We start with a piece of glass, say that's your component number one. Then, we start with the inner layer materials.  In a case like this, we use a couple of different techniques, but we use EVA, which is ethyl vinyl acetate. Then we'll actually put the LED mesh grid on top of that, then we put another piece of EVA, then we go with the finished component of the sandwich, another piece of glass, and we stick them in an oven, we run a certain cycle, and about four hours later, we have a laminated piece of glass, exactly how you described. It's a sandwich makeup for sure.  David: Was there a lot of R&D work involved in it? Because I would imagine if you're putting an LED mesh inside of an oven, then going to a very high temperature and all that, I'm thinking if I didn't know much about this stuff, I'd be wondering, what's all that heat going to do to this thing? Todd Stahl: Yeah. You know, we have to make sure that it can withstand certain temperatures, obviously, and if you don't heat, and just in general, if you don't get laminated glass hot enough, it doesn't bond, it does not bond correctly. What you have to achieve is cross-linking and cross-linking is basically the interlayer material to the glass itself, and that happens at a temperature of around 110 degrees Celsius, so it's not getting hot enough to cook a Turkey in there, so we're not really dealing with extremes. I think a lot of people might think when you're actually making glass out of what we call a batch, you know that's where the glass is heated up to 2000 degrees and you're really dealing with some extreme temperatures. It's not quite the same extremes at all when you're dealing with laminated glass.  David: So tell me what performance glass is, and what high-end performance glass is because I don't know the glass world terribly well.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, sure. So, so what William Penn performance glass is the performance name kind of all started because our glass looks great and it, but it's an all safety rated glass. So that's kind of the performance part of the glass. So, if you're looking at our glass, say that's used for glass handrails, that's a very specific glass that's chosen to withstand the certain load requirements of a structural application, and typically most of our handrails are tempered, and laminated glass. So there are two ways on this planet to make a piece of glass safety-rated. You either temper it or you laminate it. We happen to do both of those things in a lot of our projects, and it's kind of funny like obviously safety-rated glass is strong, but the only thing that's really taken into consideration when you're referring to safety glass are you automatically assume it's going to break and what happens when it breaks, right? So with tempered glass, you put a lot of stress on the glass itself through a heating and cooling process, and whenever that glass breaks, it breaks into small panels that would not be able to potentially cause a life-threatening wound, and then you have the exact opposite with laminated where if a rock hits your car, if that's ever happened to you the rock doesn't come through and the pieces of the glass, the shards don't come through, they stay together. So you got those two things to the requirements when you're thinking about what is safety rated glass.  David: With the Clear Motion product, is it an indoor product only, an outdoor facing product, or what are the use cases?  Todd Stahl: So what's really cool about our LED glass is that almost wherever you're using architectural glass right now, you can now use our LED displays. So it can be used in exterior applications, a building facade, glass canopies, and railings that may be exterior. All of the components are kind of encapsulated inside that glass, and that glass is making a nice, really safe, cozy home for the LED display inside of it. David: And it's bright enough that it can be on a glass curtain wall like an auto dealer?  Todd Stahl: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think that's one of the really cool applications for it. In fact, you had mentioned at the trade show and boy, were we busy? I think I was just talking about this yesterday. We scanned around 450 people in that short show. Our voices were a little strained by the end of the evening. So, the brightness of our display at the show, Dave, was only running around 4%, and I thought that was one of the more amazing things about the product because it was still kind of bright at 4%. Later we started bringing that up because a few potential clients wanted to see it at 50-60% brightness. So yeah, you can totally use this as an exterior sign and get whatever brightness you need. I think some of the products are well over 10,000 nits depending on the needs, and I think one actually lasted up to 15,000 nits, so plenty bright for the outside.  David: Yeah, once you get to 3,500, you're good.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, exactly. David: On transparency. I see on your website that it says there is up to 90 percent transparency.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, so when you get to some of the pixel pitches that are viewed from say, a distance of around a hundred feet, I think the pixel pitch at a 20, I believe that one may allow up to 90 percent of light to come through. It's really cool. I mean, you have this really great display, and then you're just getting all this, and you're not cutting off any spaces so if you have a traditional LED display, you can only view that from one side and I think that's kind of what's really amazing about this product and a lot of times when you're looking at the product, you don't even realize that it's transparent until the image would say it's rotating from one image to the next. And you're like, Oh, wow, that's clear, there are people behind there. So I think, yeah, it's really cool in that application.  David: From what I saw, because it's this mesh material, with super thin wiring in between each of the LED lights.  The challenge I've had with a lot of trans or “transparent products” is that they look good from the front side, particularly at a distance, but when you look at the back end of the things, there's a mesh, like a metallic mesh or something like that, a grid system that kind of makes it look like crap. Todd Stahl: Yeah. With a lot of the applied films that have been out there before, and there's not a whole lot of them, but there are a few, certainly from that backside, it doesn't look at all like the front, and the same thing, with the LED actual metal meshes, again, they look phenomenal from the front, and you get behind, and you're like, man, what am I looking at here? So with our product, what's really cool about that is you get a little bit of the halo effect, from the image that's playing on it, that you can see from, say, the view side of the glass, and then you get a slight reflection off of that front piece of glass that kind of bounces back through. So you see a little bit of a glow or a halo in the background, but it is not an eyesore, and it looks pretty good. You can see out, and you have a very clear picture of the people that you're looking through or whatever object you would be doing from the back of the product. It looks really good. It's a good look from the backside.  David: Yeah, there are numerous products out there that now do this kind of foil mesh effect, and you have to adhere it to the inside of a sheet of glass, which is all fine and everything else, but it doesn't look that good from the inside, does it? Todd Stahl: No, it really doesn't. The concept here, we touched on hockey a little bit, earlier, but you know, we have, you have all these hockey nets in the arena to protect the fans that a puck doesn't hit them, and most of those meshes are black. It's harder for our eyes to kind of pick up the black mesh than it is for white. There are some that have whites, but not many, and the black is blended in a lot easier. I'm a big hockey fan, so I've been to a few arenas, and the white ones are a little harder to, I think it takes away from the image more, and that's why we're using a black LED mesh.  When we first started, it was white, and it just didn't have as good of a; again, I thought it took away from the product from the backside.  David: So presumably there are limits in terms of the size of a glass panel that you can do because you've got a laminate in an oven of some kind and that they're only so big. So if you have, to use the example I mentioned earlier of, an auto dealer's glass curtain wall where the sheet of glass might be pretty darn big. How do you put multiple units together? And what does that look like in terms of cabling and everything?  Todd Stahl: Yeah. So we're always kind of limited in size by a couple of different things. Sometimes it might be the actual raw product glass that we're using. Some sheets are available to us, bigger and smaller, the width of the laminating materials, and then our oven as well. So basically, in our oven here in Pennsylvania, we can laminate an LED panel roughly about 6x10 feet. You know, that's a pretty sizable piece of glass, and then what we can do, if you're doing a glass facade it kind of gets into a little bit more of how the glass is installed, but you're basically stacking the panels. there's a control unit. That attaches to each panel of glass, and then those control units are all tied together and then that gives you one cohesive image plane from one panel to the next.  David: Do you have much of a seam in between them?  Todd Stahl: So, if you remember, at the trade show, I think we had two panels out there and we had a seam in the middle. So I'll see the seam, you'll see the seam, but when the image is playing, you really don't even notice it's there. A lot of times, depending on the application, a glass facade is a little different, because you're going to have all most likely all four edges of the glass covered, but, we have a lot of applications where the panels are being butt jointed together and it's a nice polished edge there. So, yeah, with the image running and stuff, you really don't even see it unless you get within a couple of feet of it.  David: So we're talking millimeters, not inches, in terms of a gap.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. You know, a gap's going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of three, three-sixteenths of an inch, plus or minus. David: So not much at all.  Todd Stahl: Yeah, not much at all. Like I said, it's pretty cool. When that image is going, you're like, it just looks like one big piece of glass.  David: And there are technical limits, like if, let's say, an airport curtain wall that might be like 80 feet high for the side of a terminal or something like that. Can you do that?  Todd Stahl: Absolutely. That can all be tied in. You'd have several zones there, and depending on how you're handling the programming from a laptop, and something like that, you just say zone one's the entire thing, and then you might break it down into individual zones if you want different things playing at different times, but yeah, we this is definitely designed to do entire glass facades or, curtain walls. David: All those little lights generate some heat. How does the heat get out?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, so we've been working with these products for about two years now, and I always expect when I put my hand on the glass to touch it, that it's going to be nice and warm, but it really isn't. The heat definitely dissipates quickly. There is some energy consumption, and we have charts for that. So once we get into a building design, we can get in there and say, “Hey, this is what you're going to need for your power requirements.” But it has very similar power requirements to current LED displays that have been around for a while. But yeah, it doesn't really create much heat. You would think it creates more, and I'm telling you, whenever anybody sees it, one of the first things that they almost always do is, “Oh, I expected that to be warm” and they touch it, and it really isn't.  David: Well, one of the criticisms or let's say what a naysayer might say about this, is, “All right, if I buy this, glass panel with the LED mesh embedded inside of it, what happens if there's a dead pixel? I'm stuck with that forever. It can't be repaired because it's sandwiched in between two sheets of glass.”  Todd Stahl: You know, it was my biggest concern. We spent a good bit of time.  I think the lifespan of the LED bulbs we're using is right under 11 years. So we found the biggest problem that we've encountered, and this took us a while before we were going to bring it to market because that's by far the biggest concern; anyone looks at that and goes, it's not the first time I've ever seen a bulb, you know? So there's a couple of things. There's been a lot of research and development to make sure when it comes out of lamination that we've already caused any bulbs to fail before those processes, and we actually have a little bit of a protocol we've developed. So, one of the biggest reasons a light bulb is going to fail is the heat and pressure in that vacuum. It's not so much the heat, but the pressure because there's a little bit of movement in there. So if all those connection points aren't just right, you're going to get a bulb that may come out after you've done all of the work, and then you fire it up, and you know, there's a lot of bulbs, and a diode and only one is bad, it's not good. So we actually have a pre-laminating process we run to actually replicate what is going to go through the stressors of the lamination process. And if we find a bulb or a diode that might not be working, we can replace it after that pre-cycle of lamination.  Now, on the flip side, let's say it's out there, it's in the field. If we use annealed glass on the front surface, so, annealed is not tempered, but the backlight would be tempered, so you're still dealing with a, fully safety rated tempered and laminated makeup. We actually have a drilling process where we can drill a core out of the glass, and we can actually replace that LED diode. What our experience is that once they come through lamination so far, with all the panels we've been working on we have not had one go out and we've put them in some areas of our glass production facility near our tempering oven, which is a really cool piece of equipment. It has a 600 horsepower blower that when the tempered glass comes through, it cools it to dissipate the heat, but it draws some dust, there's some heat back there. We've had a panel running there for two years in that condition without any issues. But yes, you can actually replace the bulbs if you need to, if one goes out.  David: So I'm curious when an architect and a general contractor puts a building up, they're thinking in terms of being there for decades, with maybe the exception of football stadiums, which seem to need to be replaced every five years or so. Is 11 years an acceptable operating lifespan for a sheet of glass for a builder or for a building owner?  Todd Stahl: Yeah. I mean, our interlayers, they last 20-30 years. The interlayers and the glass products, yeah, they're going to last a very long time. When we've been bringing this product to market I think, the event back to the switch light is one of the first times you're us glass guys are introducing electricity into the mix. And at first that back in 2000, I mean, it was really cool. It had the wow factor, but it didn't quite last as long for me. I didn't really get into the product until recently. But you know, that product will last around 10 years as well, and we don't get a whole lot of callbacks very often with any of our glass products.  But it seems like most clients are happy with a 10-year usage. That's been pretty good for the Switch Lite product. We talk about a decade out there to the architects and designers now that, that's a number that they all seem to be very happy  David: Let's say a car dealer goes in, they're fine, they're thinking in terms of the glass that they put in is there for 10 years, and they may switch it out anyways?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, I think you know that everybody wants to be fresh and new. So we found a lot of these high-end retail stores that we've designed with, for instance, a high-end jewelry line, and let's say they have started in California with a new design. They take that design and they move it east to New York City. By the time they get to New York City, whether that's been five to eight years, and they redesign the whole thing over again. So there's a cycle and I think, especially with retail, and a lot of these buildings, they always want to have a new, fresh look, and I think a lot of times they're redesigning in under ten years for a lot of applications.  David: I'm guessing I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing that there's hyper-competition from China for, what I would say is conventional LED displays and so on; you're probably going to have less competition for what you're doing because of the sheer weight of, even if they can make glass cheaper over in China, shipping glass panels over here would be just ghastly expensive, right? Todd Stahl: Yeah, definitely. It's pretty heavy to air freight glass, so it's always nice that there's this thing called the ocean between us and China, especially us being we've been a manufacturer forever, and thankfully, it is a little expensive to ship a finished product like that and take some time. So, yeah, and you know, right now, we're kind of pretty far ahead of the curve in how to actually laminate this properly. Our feeling was when we got involved with this, all right, we got the LED technology. Now we'll just throw it in some glass, and we got a home run and it wasn't quite as easy to just throw it in glass and end up with a finished product, you know? There are still some areas. We are not the only ones in the world laminating this product, but there are, from what I know, under five; we're the only ones who can do it with thin and large panels. We're the only ones that I know of that are actually doing some of the very specific things to make sure it's going to perform properly in these laminated glass applications. In our process, we are patent protected in our process where I think we're just like in the first phase, I don't know all the legal terminology, but we're going through the patent process for the way we laminate it.  David: Which will help you over here, won't help you with Chinese products, but again, there's that ocean thing in between. Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. We have a few intellectual properties here and I'm not one to get into too many legal battles, but we would have some type of recourse if someone does come and is trying to laminate in a similar technique the way we do it. David: I suspect you're kind of looking around the corner as to where this is going and the types of technologies that are emerging. Do you kind of see this as, what you have right now is Gen 1, and over time the light emitters will get smaller, the wiring will be even thinner and so on? Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly the way I see it going. I mentioned earlier: I really am a glass guy, and this is a glass company by people who absolutely love glass. Now, that's a Will Penn. Clear Motion, we have that same feeling as well, but this is more of a technology company. And what we're talking about today, like you said, generation one. We're going to revisit this in under five years, and it's going to look, I think, a whole lot different.  David: Who's buying it right now? And are you in the field with this?  Todd Stahl: So we're working on probably over 50 to 60 current projects right now in the design phase. Almost everyone we're working with has signed NDAs. So we can't necessarily say the clients that we're designing with right now. But one's a high-end fast food restaurant. They want one of these in each restaurant and that's actually for an exterior application.  David: Are these proposals or purchase orders?  Todd Stahl: They are proposals right now, so a lot of verbal commitments. We have a project we're working on in the Middle East in the design phase right now, that's 18 months out, the funding has been approved. They're designing it in the UK and then we're working with the audio visual company, I think in Texas. So this is really brand new.  David: You're in startup mode!  Todd Stahl: We really are, and this is the third company I've started literally from scratch, and I think it'll be the last one because boy, it is challenging. It takes a lot of energy. There's this great energy when you're starting it, and this is a little extra challenging because this is brand new. No one has ever seen clear LED glass displays like they just did not exist four years ago.  People might've thought they saw something similar. Like you said, it was a film or a grid that was put behind the glass. But when people are seeing this now, we're creating a new market, we're educating people to that market, and we're educating ourselves.  David: I'm guessing when people come to a stand at a trade show, you're at, the architects and the people who design physical spaces are the ones who are going, this is more like it. They haven't really liked the idea of films or foils and all that because of how they look at the back end or they're worried about a film sort of, particularly if it's exposed to UV light and all that, it's going to yellow and on and on…  Todd Stahl: So what the feedback from the A&D community has been? We did an AIA show in San Francisco last June, and we had one or two clients, say, “Hey Todd, we have the budget for this. We have clients who want this product, and we've been looking for it for years.” Then we start designing the project with them, and that's the thing: once I shake hands with an architect, we might not actually have that project begin production for 24 months to a year. So, depending if the building's coming out of the ground or if it's just a remodel of an existing one, it's a very long cycle until we actually get orders placed, and you know, something I've been dealing with for 30 years. It's kind of the way the industry is.  David: Infrastructure projects are never quick, are they?  Todd Stahl: No, they really aren't, but the A&D world is kind of our background. It's where we've been for a very long time in that space, and we've definitely noticed that companies, individuals in the audio-visual world respond to this entirely differently. This doesn't have as many questions in their minds. They're more educated because we've been used to dealing with LEDs for a very long period of time. So it's kind of interesting how the two markets work together, like the DSE show where we introduced the product, I would say more to the audio-visual world if I'm using the right terminology there, it was received just as with that much energy, a lot of more understanding right away, not as many technical questions. David: It's a variation on stuff they've been seen before, but maybe a better variation. Todd Stahl: Yeah, absolutely, and the architects, like you were saying, and even in general, I think even though LG makes an applied film. The North American President of, I forgot the gentleman's name, he was in my shop a little over a year ago, and we were working with his film, and then we showed him our LED glass, and he was blown away by it. David: “There goes my business”  Todd Stahl: Well, I think he was like, I'm going to make that too. I don't think he was worried about his business, but that applied film that they had been using, again, from a very long viewing distance, the product looks great. It's not yet ready to be viewed in shorter viewing distances, but the fact that it's applied, I do think that there is something like when you're buying a high-end product, you don't want people to be able to come up and pick it off, and I mean that definitely happens with every piece of film, I think I've ever worked with in my life. The first thing people do is take their fingernails, and they try to scrape the edge of it. It's just something that is instinctual about humans. But I think if you take that film now, I always say, if you put a piece of film on glass, it's just film. Once you laminate that film inside of the glass, you now have a glass product that protects it.  It does what you were saying. It prevents it from being yellowed over time because the inner layer blocks out almost 100 percent of the UV rays. So I think it's a great home for the LED mesh.  David: So does William Penn and Clear Motion Glass, do they operate separately, or are you kind of in the same office, the same building, and everything else, it's just different business cards? Todd Stahl: No, actually, we are in the same overall building complex, but we're not connected physically. So Clear Motion, basically has the equivalent of its own social security number, which down here in the business and for business, the IRS wants us to have EIN numbers for our businesses. So Clear Motion has an EIN number. Will Penn has an EIN number, obviously, but they definitely operate as two companies but obviously very close connections.  David: And you are running both?  Todd Stahl: I am running both right now, and spoiler alert: two's a lot harder to run than one.  David: Yes, I bet. If people want to find you online, they just go to ClearMotionGlass.com?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, that's it. They can find us there. There are some emails there. They can shoot an email to us and we'd love to talk to anybody if this product's right for them we're really excited about it and definitely creating a lot of energy with it. David: Are you at a trade show anytime soon?  Todd Stahl: Yeah, so we're doing Infocomm, I believe. It's the middle of June out in Vegas. Are you going to be there?  David: Yes.  Todd Stahl: Awesome, man. We get to meet in person, then. We'll carve out some time for that, Dave.  David: Absolutely, yeah, and that's a good show for you. There are tons of pro-AV people there. Todd Stahl: Yeah, I love that. That's a new space for us. So we're a little extra excited cause that's definitely not like a glass trade show is.  David: All right. Todd, thank you so much for your time.  Todd Stahl: All right. Yeah. I appreciate it, Dave. It was a pleasure.  

In this explainer episode, we've asked David Bick, Principal Clinician for the Newborn Genomes Programme at Genomics England, to explain more about the Generation Study, in less than 10 minutes. For more information you can listen to our podcast episode where David discusses the conditions that we will initially look for in the study. You can also find a series of short videos explaining some of the common terms you might encounter about genomics on our YouTube channel. If you've got any questions, or have any other topics you'd like us to explain, feel free to contact us on info@genomicsengland.co.uk.   You can read the transcript below or download it here: What-is-the-generation-study.docx   Naimah: What is the Generation Study? I'm Naimah Callachand, and today I'm joined by David Bick, the principal clinician for the Newborn Genomes Program at Genomics England, and he's going to explain more. Okay, so first of all, David, please, can you tell me what is the generation study? David: The Generation Study is a research study organised by Genomics England in partnership with the NHS. So what is the study exactly? We know that children are born every day with treatable genetic conditions. What we want to do in this study is we want to find those children and treat them before they become sick. We know that if we can find these children early in life, we can keep them healthy. Naimah: Can you tell me a bit about how the study was designed? David: Yes, this study was designed to look for genetic conditions that are treatable, and we went about looking for which conditions to include through an extensive evaluation that involves specialists, laboratory specialists, the NHS and patients from different support groups. And through this process, we identified more than 200 conditions that are treatable, and we are including those in the study. Naimah: And David, you mentioned the conditions list there. You can also find an additional podcast on our website where you go into more detail as to why the conditions on that list were chosen initially for the study. Can you tell me how this fits in with the current newborn screening program? David: The current newborn screening program looks for a smaller number of conditions, nine conditions. It has been extremely successful and is an extremely important program, and so we're looking to see how our program could be an adjunct to the current screening process. Naimah: How would people take part in this study? David: What we're going to do is we're going to ask couples in mid-trimester, in the middle of pregnancy to join in the study, we're going give them a number of opportunities to learn about the study and those that sign up. We plan to obtain cord blood from the placenta after birth. And as you may recall, the placenta is discarded and so this cord blood would normally simply be discarded, but we can take this umbilical cord blood and test it for genes. We expect it to expand to perhaps 40 trusts across the country. Naimah: And David, the NHS is already under quite a lot of pressure at the minute. What will this study mean for the NHS? What impact will it have? David: That has been one of the main concerns as we went forward with thinking about the study was to make sure that we did not add additional burden to the NHS. But it's important to realise that the children that we're looking for already have the condition, they're going to become ill. And our plan is, our hope is that if we can find them before they become ill, we will actually relieve stress on the NHS system. Let me give an example. There is a condition called biotinidase deficiency. Here is a condition where the child who has it, is unable to recycle a vitamin called biotin. Well, biotin is something you can pick up at the health food store, and so these children. Need to be given extra biotin every day. Very, very inexpensive, very, very safe. But if you don't find these children before they become ill, they can become quite seriously ill. So if we can find these children before they get sick, get them started on this very simple, very inexpensive, very safe medication vitamin. In fact, this will actually save money for the NHS, but also help the NHS function more effectively. And most importantly, to allow parents to have the knowledge that they have done something for their child, which will prevent their child from becoming ill.  Naimah: Some parents might want to know if their child's data is being kept safe. What are you doing to ensure this? David: Data safety is very important to us. We know that this information is extremely sensitive, and so our data protection is a very high priority. We're controlling very carefully who will have access to the data. There are groups that we do want to work with this data. We want researchers and the pharmaceutical industry to work with this data to improve treatments. We know that there are many, many genetic conditions for which there is no treatment. Those conditions are not on our panel, and so we're hoping that the information that we learn from these genomes can be used to improve the care of conditions that exist, that are treatable, but most importantly, to find treatments for conditions that are currently not treatable. And one way that we're doing this is we're going to ask families to stay with us for several years after the program starts. Once we have screened families, we're going to find some that are going to be screened positive, in which case we would look to see whether they have the condition or not, and then go ahead and start treatment. We also, unfortunately, in a screening situation, we know that we're going to miss some cases, and so again, we want to stay in contact with families so we can know how to improve the testing, but most importantly, to understand how the test works, how screening works using genome and determine whether this makes sense to include all patients that are born in England going forward. Naimah: And can you just finally tell me where you expect this study to go? In the coming months? David: What we hope is that one day we'll reach a point where we can find and treat children who have treatable conditions before they get ill. this would really make our healthcare system a real healthcare system. We would find children before they get ill. In this way we can keep children healthy and help them lead and live their best lives. Naimah: So that was David Bick explaining ‘what is The Generation Study'. You can find out more about the study on our website and if you'd like to follow us on social media, you'll be able to keep up to date with any of the updates. Thank you for listening.

Today on the IC-DISC show, join us for an insightful discussion with Laurie Barkman, a renowned CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook. As the acclaimed Business Transition Sherpa, Laurie sheds light on the reality that all business owners will exit someday. We explore the challenges of selling a business, like why most small businesses don't sell successfully and the potential pitfalls of an exit. We also discuss relying on experienced advisors and how understanding taxes and markets can aid planning. Laurie shares invaluable advice on navigating this critical phase successfully. This episode is a must-listen for any business owner planning to navigate their business transition.   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Laurie and I discuss her journey as a CEO and author of The Business Transition Handbook, providing insights into the realities of business transition. She highlights the hard truth of selling a business and how eight out of ten small businesses fail to do so successfully. We talk about the common pitfalls of business transition, the five "D's" that can disrupt a business, and the value of creating a satisfied client base. Laurie explains the unique challenges law firms face during business transition and offers her strategies for a smooth transition. We delve into the importance of a clear exit plan and the different options business owners have when transitioning their business. Laurie advises focusing on three primary goals during business transition: business, personal, and financial. We discuss the analogy of business transition planning to having a sherpa guide you through a treacherous terrain, making the process seem less daunting. Laurie emphasizes the significance of accountability in business and the benefits of having industry expert conversations during transition. We explore the upcoming online course based on Laurie's book that she plans to launch in the first quarter of 2024, aiming to reach a wider audience of entrepreneurs. We discuss the importance of having an experienced network of professionals to help businesses reach their goals and create a successful transition plan. LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About The Business Transition Sherpa About The Endgame Entrepreneurship Course GUEST Laurie BarkmanAbout Laurie TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) David: Hi, this is David Spray. Welcome to another episode of the IC Disc Show. My guest today is Laurie Barkman from Pittsburgh. Laurie is a really fun and interesting guest. She just released her first book entitled the Business Transition Handbook, and she is called in many circles the business transition, the idea being that a Sherpa guides somebody on a journey over a period of time rather than just a one-point event in time. Laurie has an impressive background as a former CEO of a large privately held company. She has a bachelor's and an MBA, and we talked about mistakes business owners make when they're transitioning their business. We talked about the sober reality that 100% every last business owner is going to exit their business and the question is will it be on their terms or someone else's? So there is some great advice and information for any company, any business owner who is looking to exit their business at some point, and I think you'll get a lot of value from this. Good morning, laurie. How are you today? Laurie: David, hey, great to see you, I'm awesome. David: That is great. Now, where are you located today? Laurie: I'm in the great city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. David: Yes, now are you a native of Pittsburgh. Laurie: I am not. I am not. I'm an adopted daughter of the city. I'm originally from Albany, New York. David: Okay, so Ithaca wasn't too far to go for you. Laurie: That's right, it was not. It was only about three hours away. David: Okay, and then what brought you to Pittsburgh? Laurie: After graduating from college, my husband and I moved around Pennsylvania with different corporations. I was with Aigner Sol Rand Company and I was with a division in Shippensburg and after four years decided to get my masters, get my MBA, and decided to move to Pittsburgh. My husband had gotten a nice job with McKinsey and company and here we are. Okay 25 years later. David: You got your MBA in Pittsburgh, right at Carnegie. Laurie: Mellon. I did at Carnegie Mellon okay. David: Well, let's dig into this. So the business transition Sherpa. Where did this nickname come from? Did you come up with this yourself, or did somebody else give you that title? Laurie: You know, it's kind of an amalgamation of things. I remember talking to my husband about a trip that he and I had taken in 1997. We did a trek, we did a hike, and this idea of somebody guiding you and stuck with me. And as I was thinking about what I'm doing, working with business owners, it's not just one moment in time, it's over a period of time, and I really feel like my role is to be a guide. I don't have all the answers. I have a path, I have tools and, just like a Sherpa and the great work that they do, it's that same idea is we're on a journey together. Entrepreneurs build their business, sometimes on their own, but most likely not. Entrepreneurs are building their companies with other people, and so when they get to this other side of the mountain, so to speak, and thinking about their next chapter, why would they go about that by themselves? And I want to be the person that helps guide them. David: Yeah, I love the description of what you do because it picks up the fact that it's a journey, it's not a point in time and it's tough to do by yourself. In my experience I've just closely held small to medium sized business owners. Only sell a business once right, that's right. Laurie: We can regret things in our experience. We can regret what we do and wish we did something differently, or we do not take an action and we regret not taking that action. And my book the whole reason I wrote the book the business transition handbook was to help people proactively so that they don't have regrets. It's a very big, lofty goal to not have regrets in life, but if we can be proactive and we can understand what it takes to build a more valuable, transferable business and then understand what resources we might want to have on our side. I like to say, David, you can't do exit planning when you're exiting. It's just too late. So if you give yourself a time and space to work on having a more valuable, transferable business, the good news is that it's going to be a lot more fun to run your company. It's going to have an economic benefit to you and then in the future you'll have more options. You'll have more valuable options too. David: Yeah, I really enjoyed reading your book. In fact, behind you there, I believe, there's a blown up cover. Yes, it is. Laurie: That's right. Yeah, it was really interesting to write the book. I guess I could say it's my first book. I don't know that I'll have a second, but this, no matter what, is my first book and it was challenging, but at the same time, it was fun. It was like a giant puzzle. Once I mapped out what I believe the big pitfalls are right. So the subtitle of the book is how to avoid succession pitfalls. Each chapter in the book and I don't know if you picked up on this as you were reading it but each chapter is a pitfall. What do you want to avoid? And so what I tried to do was put myself in the reader's seat, the entrepreneur's seat, and how I developed that perspective was from my own experiences, client experiences and then integrating case studies and other learnings from my podcast. I have a show called Succession Stories that you will be a part of soon, and there are so many valuable things to learn from other people's wins and losses and challenges, and that's what I have always sought out to do with my show. The show is about three years old at this point and when I was writing the book, I had, I think, about 120 recordings, so that's a lot of knowledge and content. And what was so fun for me, david, was I was going back into the archives of a discussion. Every show I have has a transcript and of course I don't remember everything. But when I would write a chapter and I would need a case study, I had space for a case study in that particular spot, for a particular topic I would think, okay, which shows, should I go back to dive into those transcripts and then find these golden nuggets and I it was just so interesting to have the recall in writing of oh yeah, you know, she said that was an amazing conversation, and you, my memories are not long, right, we have so many, only so much storage in our brains, exactly. So it was really cool to go back to that body of knowledge that I had created, and I began to appreciate that body of knowledge even more. I think this case studies bring the book to life. I'd like to hear what you think about that, but that's that's what I hear from my readers is they love the, the learning and the concepts, the business concepts in the book, and they think that it's like me having a conversation with them by sharing these case studies and stories along the way. David: Yeah, I agree there were a number of. I mean, there was a lot of great stuff in there, but some of the particular ones I kind of wanted to dive in with you on is so this is a little bit of a quiz to see how much of your book you remember Do. When somebody, when people, decide to sell their business, do they just automatically sell it or do some portion of them? Are they unable to sell the business? Laurie: There's a mix, as you can imagine. Yeah, what percentage are you? David: able to actually sell it in the small business space. Laurie: It's a surprisingly low number. You know the statistics out. There is that every two out of 10 companies in the lower middle market actually sell. So that leaves eight out of 10 not selling. And you could ask, well, why is that? And there's a lot of reasons why. Sometimes along the way we have the five D's kind of pop up, or always also known as the 60s. These D's are taboo things, sometimes we don't want to talk about them, but they're real and we do need to talk about them. It could be the debt of an owner. It could be divorce disaster like COVID you know we put it in that category or disaster like fires and the business or the market has experienced is something traumatic it could be. Did I say divorce already? Divorce is another D. So these D's are something we can plan for. We don't want them to happen but we do need to be prepared. So if we're not prepared for the 60s, they can really wreak havoc on a business. Particularly death. The death of an owner can throw a business into a tailspin and I did cover that at some you know level in the book with a couple of episodes, snippets of people who had experienced that. The other reason why businesses don't sell, david, is because they're just not transferable. If they are so owner dependent and owner centric, that can be a really big reason why it won't sell and it's hard for owners to see that. You know, sometimes owners think that they are the secret sauce. I have a business assessment that one time I'm marketing. The owner of a marketing firm took this assessment and she said oh my God, she goes. I didn't realize I was standing in the way. She thought she, you know, she's a photographer, she's the creative, she's got the client relationships and she realized at that moment oh my goodness, I am making my company less valuable. So there's a pivot in our brains when we recognize some of the elements that help create a more transferable business and companies that have an owner who don't necessarily see the business as an asset, they see it as a job or they see it as a piggy bank. Those are different things, because if you see your business as an asset, you're going to want to create value in that asset over time. You're also going to want to protect that asset. If it's a job, right, I just accepted what is. And it's not growing, it's staying the same. Maybe you're not reinvesting in the business. You're not reinvesting in yourself or your people. And let's just jump to an example. I have a client who, in his favor, had very loyal people Once he got to his sixties, as did his key employees, and everybody's looking to retire. Buyers looking at that business said oh my goodness, how transferable is this business when all the key people are going to retire at the same time? So he had saved money, so to speak, by not bringing in new people, kind of underneath and over a period of training. So he recognizes that now, but it's too late. David: Sure, yeah, I was having this conversation yesterday with a group of CEOs and we were talking about enterprise value, increasing it, owner dependency, and there's a guy that owns a small boutique intellectual property law firm and they were asking him how sellable law firms are in general and he said not very and from his perspective that he said there's things he could do to make the business run without him better. But his model that he really likes to work with his clients directly, he doesn't like an associate between them and so that in his and a couple of his clients are actually in the room and they're like, and he's like, yeah, if I had like some associates that could potentially lower the fees to a client, you know, because there's more leverage in the client. So like no, we'd rather pay more and have you. So I've noticed in professional services there's this tradeoff between what. If you really want to have delighted clients, sometimes that's at odds with making your business the most valuable. And I know my business is like that. I mean I've got huge owner dependency issues because I am the key relationship, but I've gotten peace with the fact that it's just not very sellable and I like being a craftsman and just like it hit. Laurie: Yeah, and that isn't that the important thing. If you recognize it and are accepting of it, hey, you know what? That's okay. Not every business is going to be an asset to sell to another buyer and that's totally okay with the law firm. Just to circle back, because I do have some professional experience with law firms, one of the catch 22 things about law in particular is the code of ethics that they have to abide by. David: The non-competence, the non-compete. Laurie: Yeah. So if a lawyer leaves a law firm, they you know there's certain restrictions on when they can inform their clients and taking their clients with them, and I know there's lots of gray areas. I'm not going to talk about all of the nuances there. My point is that with law firms also there could be other types of professional services that run into this, but in law in particular what clients will say is that they hire lawyers, not law firms. Yeah, and so when you're tied let's just like you're talking about with that particular partner that the clients are willing to pay more because they want to work with that particular partner it could be highly likely that client would jump and go with them, no matter where they are. That can be particularly concerning for an acquiring firm, knowing that they may have some stickiness to certain clients and then they may not have other stickiness. So it really is dependent If there's a firm that's acquisitive and looking at buying other professional services, whether it's law or any other profession. I work with engineering firms quite a bit and in engineering firms there might be contracts but those contracts are not assignable and it might influence not only the type of transaction that we would do, whether an asset sale or entity sale, but it also would influence potentially on the transition for the sellers and how long they might want to stay, or the buyers might want them to stay under either an employment agreement or consulting agreement. It could also influence whether or not there's an earn out. You could structure an earn out, for example, if the buyer wants to structure an earn out to ensure a certain percent of those contracts are assigned over whatever time period or year and a half. So it could influence it in a big way. David: Talk to me about, and thank you for that. Talk to me about what you enjoy most, about being a business transition or not. I shouldn't say A, but the business transition, Sure. What are some of the aspects of that in working with those companies that you just find particularly satisfying or rewarding? Laurie: One of the things that I experienced as a CEO of a privately held company was the loneliness and being in my own head and having big questions and not really knowing where to go. I find that I bring kind of this EQ, if you will, of smarts and know-how and experiences and questions, and then I bring excuse me, the IQ around that, then the EQ, which is more of the emotional side. I've always been a kind of person that people confide in. Obviously, this is a highly confidential type of scenario but, I talk with my clients about the business. for sure, that's the practical side of everything, but we also talk about the personal side. We have to talk about them because remember earlier in our conversation I talked about regrets and there's some alarming statistics out there about experiencing regrets at least one year after the sale. I'm kind of on this mission to help business owners find clarity, and find clarity in a way that makes sense for them, for their family, for their stakeholders, which includes employees and other shareholders and their communities that they serve. A lot of people feel after a transaction that they let so-and-so down. Maybe they let their employees down, maybe they let their communities down. I had a guy in my show whose family business fourth generation chlorine cleaning product was sold in grocery stores and he could not walk down the aisle anymore. He couldn't bear to see that product under another name or by another. He said, yeah, there was a pride. We used to the small town and we had our name on the baseball team and people knew who I was. The identity that this particular person had his family name was on the company. Identity is a really big part of it, david. People go through almost like a withdrawal If they're not excited about what's next, this pull factor, what's pulling you forward to your next thing? If we're not excited about it, it can be really. You can imagine worst case scenarios. Those things do happen. But the in-between space is not that great either, for what makes me feel that I'm helping entrepreneurs? I've always orbited entrepreneurs with a great respect for the risk that they take. I've come to know family businesses as a category. Also. There's the founder-led, family-led, privately held company. I've worked in venture backed, so no offense to venture backed folks, but they're not really a focus for me. I'm really focused on call it the bootstrapped or family-led companies where they're the everyday entrepreneur making it happen. The sense of clarity clarity on three core types of goals is where we focus business, personal and financial. There's a lot of work to be done there. I think that's what makes me motivated, makes me feel appreciated by my clients. They are awesome people. I work with some amazing people that are doing really wonderful things for their community, for their family. They have excellent intentions. They just don't know how to put it all together. I don't either. I don't have all the answers, as I said earlier, but what I do have is I have an awesome Rolodex and I have an awesome way to bring professionals together and collaborate and help my client assemble a business owner transition team advisory team to help them make big decisions along the way. Again, this clarity is the number one thing that I think my clients benefit from. David: Yeah, no, that's really important because, as you talk about in the book, unfortunately 100% of the business owners are going to exit the business, just like 100% of us are going to exit this earth. I was thinking when you were talking about that fourth generation gentleman who couldn't walk down the grocery aisle, but it's one of those things, but it wasn't like he really had. He must not have had a great way to avoid that, because he wasn't going to run the business forever. So you come into what are the options? Basically, if somebody's not immortal, what are the options to exit a business? Because there's several paths, right? Laurie: Yeah, absolutely. Just to finish the statement with 100% of business owners are going to leave one day, there's a big however, you know. However, very few are planning for that day To leave on their terms, and when we have a plan, we're more likely to achieve it. That's just how it works, right. That's why we do strategic planning for businesses. So why don't we do strategic planning for our exit or our transition? And that's really the main advocacy I have in the book is let's have a process, let's have an understanding of what it takes. So to your question I think I address it quite a bit in one of my favorite chapters, which I think is chapter six, which is who should own your business after you, and it shines a spotlight on the different kinds of buyers. When I do workshops, david, I do webinars and I do in-person workshops, and I put up this slide and I have essentially three columns and I go through some examples of each bucket three buckets and people's eyes light up, they take out their camera, they start taking photos of this one particular slide and it is enlightening because we hear about certain kinds of buyers and we don't know that there might be other options out there and maybe not every option is a fit. So what I advocate for is let's understand what are some exit options for your company and which ones might be a better fit than others, and why let's prioritize those and let's come up with option A, b, c and if option A doesn't work out, then we know we've got an option B. It's just like in any negotiation If you have the power to walk away, then you know you're going to get the right deal for you. It's when you don't feel that you have any other options that you feel pinched. So that's why back to the conversation about the five or sixties if an owner passes away and the company is going in a tailspin, with employees leaving and the spouse doesn't know what to do, and they've inherited this company. They've never worked in it, it's a mess and the buyers come out like sharks and there's chum in the water. We want to avoid that. We want to avoid that. So, yeah, I mean we could talk about what. Who are the different kinds of buyers, if you want. David: Sure, yeah, because I mean, I, just off the top of my head, we've got passing it on to the next generation selling it to the employees. A third party buyer? What are some of the other options? Laurie: Yeah, let me just frame it out and that way, visually, I'm kind of working left to right as I talked about these three columns and I put it in that order for a reason. So the first column is strategic buyers, the middle is financial buyers and the one on the right is related buyers. So the examples you mentioned, family and managers would be in the related buyers category. Typically speaking, that is going to be more of a fair market value type of approach to valuing the business, of what price you might expect for your business, and if you kind of go left on that chart then the price expectation should go up right. David: Strategic generally not always generally speaking, will pay the most. Laurie: And why is that? Well, and also, what's a strategic? So a strategic is an entity, it's a company, it could be a competitor, it could be a marketplace vendor, it could be a customer, it could be an adjacent industry to yours where they want to make moves, either geography wise, or into your industry, if they're not part of it yet. So those are strategic and, typically speaking and this was my experience going through a pretty big M&A transaction with a third generation company that we were acquired by a Fortune 50. And, believe me, they had an M&A playbook and when they're that big and they've done that many transactions, so for us it was understanding what's the fit, what will this look like? And for them, I'm sure, in their financial models, it was about leverage what assets do they keep, what employee teams might they cut and how do they gain some cost leverage? And so that's typical where these pieces of the business might be kind of bolted into something else. Maybe it's standalone, maybe it's bolted in, but that's typically why strategic can pay more, because on the back end, as they're modeling out their financials, they know what costs they're going to take out. We don't necessarily know that, but that's what they're looking at. Financial buyer most often we think of private equity firms, and private equity groups will invest on a time horizon roughly five to seven years could be longer and they'll want to buy low, sell high, and so in between, they're investing in that business to improve it, they're putting in management teams and they will take a larger entity, maybe keep it as a standalone and that would be a platform deal. And a platform deal may eventually have other firms acquired to tuck underneath it. Those acquisitions we call tuck ins or add ons. And because they are taking assets and putting them into something larger, you could say, oh well, that kind of sounds like the strategic. And the answer is, yeah, kind of does. So that's why, in a private equity deal, the hybrid, as we might also call it, could, from a multiple standpoint, look more like a strategic offer. So that's just a little financial nuance there. But typically speaking, private equity groups are going to be the biggest, you know, the biggest buyers out there. There's still a lot of dry powder and another big category that I like to spotlight. Well, there's two others I would put under this financial bucket. One is family offices might be investing in privately held companies in different asset classes. So, for example, I had a family office. Second generation was on my show and he talked about what he and his father's investment thesis is. And they're focused on warehousing, like storage, you know, storage unit for consumer storage so you can rent one for a year or whatever and put your stuff in it. So he liked they like that asset class because it has a recurring revenue model to it. And that's just one example. And what's really interesting, if you compare the time horizons for these investments, well, a family office is looking for a buy and hold, more likely than buying, selling a short period of time. So, as I said earlier about fit, this is where it's really important. If the seller doesn't want to be in a situation where it could be sold to the one fish and gobbled up by another. They want to be held for like a longer period of time and perpetuity. Then maybe they should look to you know, talking with family offices who are doing acquisitions in their space. So that's a category that is kind of under the radar and I just put a spotlight on in the book. And then the third one are ESOPs, which is a you know, think of it like an almost like a 401k program for your people. When they retire from your company, they're incentivized to stay, and when they retire they will get a distribution check, and so an ESOP is an interesting option for some other companies Again, not a fit for everyone, but it might be a fit for companies of a larger size with enough employee base, where, again, you're going to have a liability at some point to pay these people, so you have to be able to fund that. But what happens in that transaction is that the company becomes a tax-free entity, and so that's a real incentive, you know for companies to reinvest and acquire others, and it can be very positive for the culture too, yeah. David: I know quite a bit about ESOPs because you were kind enough to introduce me to Mike Silverman and in fact he and his partner, Matt were, I guess, in my podcast a few episodes ago and it's really interesting on some of the ESOP opportunities. And I'm glad you brought up the family office because, right, people don't think of that. Laurie: But when? David: I think about the. What I think of philosophically is the super family office. I think about Berkshire Hathaway's acquisition targets. But the problem is I think now they're up to where. When I started reading Warren's annual letters, they were looking for businesses with enterprise value, I think of like 25 million and up, and I think the last I checked it's half a billion or a billion and up. Just because $25 million companies don't move the needle for them. But yeah and it's kind of like their sales pitch is similar to the family office sales pitch. So I guess one way to think of it is, if you like being an aquire of Berkshire Hathaway but you're smaller than a half a billion dollars, then maybe a family office might make sense. But even then when you think about Berk acquisition requirements. They want a business that runs independently of them. They do not want to manage the business. So you're right back to. A business that can run without the owner is more valuable for everybody. Laurie: Yeah, they have the portfolio largely independent of each other. They've kept the brands, I think, pretty separate because they appreciate the brand and the competitive moat, as they like to call it, around that business. I think they look for companies that have a competitive market differentiation, so it makes sense that they don't muddle the water. David: Yeah. Laurie: Yeah. David: Have there been any positive surprises from writing the book that you didn't anticipate when you wrote? Laurie: it Surprises. Let me think about that. I think just the reviews have been so delightful and meaningful to me and I guess I just didn't think about it. I don't know that it's a surprise, it was just. Maybe I could say a surprise and delight just to see how this book is helping people or how they've shared told me that it's helping people. I think that has been a really lovely outcome. As an author, you put good in the world and you hope goodness comes back, or you hope that it's helping, but you don't really know unless people tell you, and so that's been really great, I would say. The other is with my clients. I have my clients and meet with them on a regular basis and I have clients that are reading the book and then when I meet with them they're like, yeah, I just read chapter five, let's talk about it. So this combination of I'm not going to quite do this myself, I'm going to read the book, I'm going to get knowledge, but I still want to work with someone to help me along the way, was really reinforcing that what I expected. I expected that, frankly, and I think it's important. I do think people can go through this book on their own and at some point in this call give, I'll give the listeners an option to how to make the most of it, but you can do it on your own. You can. What I think is human nature is we want someone to hold us accountable, and that's, I think, not again not necessarily a surprise, but very reinforcing. That is true and that's why just a kind of a pre announcement here I'm going to be creating an online course from the book so that it can help more people in a different way, and hopefully they'll watch the videos and they'll read the book, and I, what I'm aiming to do is reach a wider audience of entrepreneurs, not just the people who are, you know, three to five years out. This is really a book, I think. If you are beyond startup phase but you're growing your business, why not read this book and understand what it's going to take to create a more valuable exit when you're ready? So it's exciting. I'm planning to launch it in the first quarter of 2024. David: Oh, that is exciting. If somebody is interested in learning more about that is do you have any place for them to go yet, or are we too soon? Laurie: We are too soon, but that's a great idea. I should put up like a waiting list or something on my website, but the businesstransitionhandbookcom is the website page for the blog BusinessTransitionHandbookcom. Yeah, the businesstransitionhandbookcom is a page on my site, so they'll see all other pages too, but this is the landing page for the book, so what I might do is put up I'll put up a blurb at some point about awaiting this for the class. And yeah, no, I'm excited about it. Like I said, I aim to reach more people and help more people with it. David: Yeah, and you know that accountability is interesting, because one of the things I see with our clients is that one of the things that's interesting about our clients is that 90% of them have revenues between 10 and 100 million probably somewhere in the light of your clients and the vast majority of them do not borrow money. They've been financially successful enough. They've been able to, you know, internally find growth and because of in that, in addition to other reasons, and most of these also, it's a single shareholder, they don't have a board, and so these clients have zero accountability, like their only accountability is like to their family, to make sure that you know the monthly income is what they're hoping it would be. But you know, they don't have a bank to be accountable to, they don't have a board, they don't have other shareholders, so I can see where that accountability is something that they could be really helpful for them, that they don't really have anywhere else. Now, of course, they may have done that on purpose. Maybe they didn't really like being accountable. You know they were an accountable employee and then they borrowed money from the bank to start a business, so maybe they don't really like me. What do you think? Laurie: I have a client that's about 120 million revenue business in the call it food production space and he's very purposeful, has very good intentions for transition with his daughter over time and really wants to see her be successful in the company and grow with the company. And his partner, to his credit, said hey, not real name. You know, joe, you're going to want we should do a new operating agreement. You know your daughter's in the business now. She's doing a great job. We need a new operating agreement. And this operating agreement was sitting on my client's desk coffee stains. You know he literally had it in the corner of his desk. He told me he was there for nine months and then I met him in a workshop and then that was it. He said oh, that's it, I have to do something. I can't just keep looking at that document. And of course in the transition it's more than just the operating agreement. But it was so many other things too and he just the accountability was really good for him. He needed that. He really did because he had the intention to do it. It just was, you know, backburner and it was never the thing to do when all these other important things are common. Adam. David: Now that makes sense, and I just want to be clear businesstransitionbookcom or businesstransitionhandbookcom. Laurie: I just want to make sure I had it. Yeah, that's okay. It's the title of the book. Yeah, oh it's the. David: Okay yeah, I'm looking at the book. Okay, yeah, that is easy note to remember. What do you enjoy the most about your podcast? Trying to switch gears a little bit. Laurie: I love talking with people on my show about what's worked for them, what they've learned and what they would do differently and if I have an entrepreneur. I have two kinds of entrepreneurs that come on the show. One type is looking in the rearview mirror and that's where they'll get the lessons learned right. We really learn a lot from others where it just didn't quite go the way they would have liked and when they have successes, of course we learn a lot from that too. So that's one type of entrepreneur. The other type of entrepreneur is looking forward and I've started to have more conversations with entrepreneurs and I'm asking them questions about their legacy and how their intentions are for their transition and legacy, if they're open to sharing it. I've had a gentleman came on my show. He's in the HVAC space and he had let his company, his partner, know his intentions to retire in three years and it was almost like this huge weight was lifted off his shoulders and now that it's out there, they can create plans, they can work on things and it's a little bit freeing to do something like that. Other people who aren't quite ready to say what it is they want to do. We talk a little more generally about what's important to them as they think about transition and leaving a meaningful legacy for their stakeholders or family or employees, and I'm really enjoying those conversations. I also talk with people who are experts in the industry on some particular topic, like tax advisors, financial advisors, legal advisors, and those conversations are wonderful because then, as I build my Rolodex of professionals that are able to be the best fit for my clients, it's a wonderful way to do business development and people who listen to the show have. You know, not every listener becomes a client, but I have had listeners reach out. They've listened to succession stories for a year, two years, whatever it is, and they reach out and they said Lori, a longtime fan would love to talk with you. And the resources that are available from the show are on my website, like business assessments and different articles and knowledge articles give plenty of videos and ask to help people learn about different topics. So I feel like this body of knowledge. You know this thought leadership type of approach where if people listen, they learn about me, they learn about what would they do, and then maybe they want to follow up. You know is pretty exciting. So I really like that. I like when I hear from my audience. They tell me what's an interesting topic to them or questions they might have, and I think the learning is really the main thing. I'm a continuous learner I always have been and I find that with every show I'm learning something. You know, I'm learning something every time and I just love that. David: Yeah, and I've probably listened to half of your episodes. I suppose and you know that episode you have with Mike Silverman was really memorable that you know have had to introduce several clients to Mike, and so I think having the advisors on is also a great idea and that's kind of how you fit short of on my show, right? We're not talking about the ICDisc program at all, but you're somebody who my clients outside the ICDisc may find value to this conversation and yeah and I'm like you I love to hear, to hear, people's stories on the Colby. I'm an 8643, which I don't know. If you know the Colby, I do know the Colby. So I'm. That's what's called high fact finding. Okay, so I lead with the fact finding. So for me, I'm always more comfortable, you know, asking questions than answering them. Maybe that's from childhood trauma, where I was forced to answer too many uncomfortable questions by my parents. I don't know. Well, I can't believe how the time has flown by. By the way, what's your website? Laurie: My website is thebusinesstransitionsherpacom. David: Oh, okay, I like it. Laurie: Thank you, you know. I just wanted to mention David, because if your listeners are finding this topic helpful, that's good, you know, and then they probably might be wondering well, what's the next step? Or you know how do I sort of take small nibbles as opposed to biting off a whole arm, and I would recommend that. You know, I don't want people to feel overwhelmed, I want them to feel reassured that we have a process and we'll work with them to meet them where they are and I guess the you know. The next thing would be to reach out and whether they are in a mode of transition and planning, which is what I'll call pre-M&A right, not that they have to sell, but just conceptually. And then, for folks who are anticipating selling to a third party or a family member, you know that transaction somehow some way. So I'm a certified Mergers and Acquisitions Advisor and can help steer them on that path, from the practical side as well as the emotional side, to get a deal done that makes them happy. Okay, I like it. David: If people want to reach out to you, is LinkedIn probably the best way. Laurie: Yeah, linkedin's a great way. Let me know that you heard me on the show. That would be awesome, and I think, david, you'd probably love to know that too. And they could reach me on my website. As you said, the business transition Sherpa, there's a spot to book directly with me. We can connect via Calendly. David: Okay, and then what's the website for the podcast? Laurie: Successionstoriescom is the name of the show and again, you can find it directly on my website in the podcast section. All the catalog of the shows are there, but it's in every type of platform, so if you're Apple or Spotify or whatever you like, you'll find it. David: That's great. So here's the surprise question I promised you. Laurie: So I have two questions left. David: And so here comes the surprise one. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, what advice might you give? Laurie: I think I should have bought a business. David: Okay, so you would have encouraged yourself to buy a business. Laurie: Yes, when I was 25 and I was graduating from my master's program. It was all about the next great tech startup, yeah, and creating that from scratch. And that wasn't me, yeah. But I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I just didn't feel like that was me in that mold. And I think now I'm more attuned to entrepreneurs through acquisition, you know as a category, and I didn't mention them, but they also would fall under the financial buyer category and there are many of them out there, not just in the US but around the world, who are interested in being part of that succession plan for a founder next generation leader. David: If you do you ever listen to the my First Million podcast. Laurie: I'd spent a while, but I'm familiar with it. You like that. David: They had a guest on recently. That is probably certainly my top five favorite podcast interviews ever and it's about a woman Sarah I forget her last name, but she was getting her MBA and decided she was going to buy a business with and she had zero money. She was going to buy a business you like these real estate advertisements? Buying real estate with no money down. She was going to buy a business with no money down and it's just a fascinating story of the process she went through through in just an astonishingly wonderful interview that I couldn't recommend highly enough. So apparently she was able to somehow go back in time and give her a 25 year old self that advice because she managed to pull that off. That's very cool. Is there anything we didn't cover that you wish we had? Laurie: Well, I think just to reiterate for people that when time is on your side, you can make an impact on your future and give yourself the space to work on your business and not just in your business. That would probably be my main advocacy and surround yourself with people that can help hold you accountable to the process and meet you where you are. So if they are just thinking about it, trying to figure it out, trying to understand what's their business worth today, yeah, that's a great place to start to. You know, try to figure out and model. Where are you now, where do you want to be and what's the gap and how are you going to get there? David: That's awesome, Laurie. I really appreciate your time on the show and I appreciate you taking the time to be on here. Laurie: Well, David, thank you for having me. I know this is my second time around you and I talked on a different show. We did. David: Yeah, we did. Laurie: It's lovely to be back with you and reconnect, and I'm just so glad that you are sharing this content with your audience, and I appreciate you, thank you. David: Yeah, it is my pleasure. Well, I hope you have a great day. Laurie: You too. Special Guest: Laurie Barkman.

David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will continue our discussion about the AI Approach to Multiply Your Sales. This is episode three in our series, and it's about upselling, sales funnels, and your CRM. David: Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Thank you, David. This has been fascinating for me as I look at what AI recommends. And even just apply some of those basics to my own business but also realizing that these are kind of general, and figuring out how to apply them to everybody's individual circumstances is no easy feat. David: Exactly. And one of the things that I've really liked about this series is having the opportunity to talk about the "how" of a lot of this stuff, because as business owners, as salespeople, we've heard these recommendations forever. But the question is always, "well, how do you go about doing it?" And so what I've been trying to do in this series is to say, okay, here's the general what you ought to do, but then there's the, how do you go about doing it? And this is exactly what we help our clients with. So it's been really fun for me to be able to go through these and say, okay, there are probably lots of ways to do these things, but this is how we do it. Because our goal is to simplify it for our clients. So you don't have to say, Oh, well, should I do this? Should I do that? Should I do this? It's like, okay. Implement this, gauge the results, see how it goes, report back, if we need to tweak it, if we need to do something different, we can, but you have an instant starting point, and that allows you to get actions taken, get results back quickly, and then be able to adapt as you go. Jay: Yeah, I love that, that you're able to kind of cut through all of the noise out there because there's so much noise, and help them identify for their individual situation what they need because they may have asked AI and we have some of those lists here and items from AI, but again, it's just a starting point. David: Exactly. So let's take a look at the things that we already discussed in the previous episodes. And once again, what we're doing here is we asked AI, what are the things that will allow us to multiply our sales? It came back with number one, define your target audience. Number two, develop a compelling value proposition. Number three, optimize your marketing channels. We covered that in previous episodes. Number four was enhance your customer experience. Number five was implement a referral program. Number six was leverage and the power of content marketing. So now in this episode, we're going to tackle numbers seven, eight, and nine, which is upselling, sales funnels, and your CRM. So let's get to number seven. 7. Utilize upselling and cross selling strategies: Offer complementary products or services to increase the average transactional value and maximize customer value. What do you think? Jay: Yeah. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. I will tell you this was much easier to grasp in my mind when I was in the restaurant business, right? It's like, you want fries with that? You know, let's make it a value meal. Let's make it a, you know, a combo, whatever. I will tell you, we've spent a lot of time in my current business identifying what are the other things, other products that we can offer that our customers will want, not things that we can shove down their throat, but what other things can we add that they may be looking for because they came to us? David: Yes, exactly. And I think people hear about upselling and cross selling and they're like, Oh yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Most people are familiar with the restaurant, the McDonald's example, "want fries with that." So it makes sense, but it's like, okay, how do I apply that to my business? And one of the ways that we help our clients do that is to identify, okay, well, what does this mean? What is upselling versus cross selling and all that ...

David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the AI Approach to Multiply Your Sales. This is part one in a multiple part series, and we're going to start off with targeting, communication, and reach. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Hey, David, it's great to be with you. I'm really excited about this series because I think a lot of people shy away from AI. Or they're getting into it and they're hearing a lot of the things that it can do, but they're not sure how to approach it or even if it's the right thing to do for their business. David: Yes. Agreed. And the way this actually came about is that we've been talking for a while over the course of the past several weeks in particular about multiplying your sales. And some people really struggle with this concept. And I thought, well, what does AI have to say on the topic, and how does what AI says about it relate to what we do, and how we help our clients, and do these things line up? So I thought what I'd do is I'd take the answer to the question when we asked AI, "What are your best recommendations in terms of multiplying sales," to see what AI says and then compare that with what we're doing. And so the first three recommendations that it had were based on targeting, communication, and reach. Those are my words, not AI words in particular. But that's pretty much what it broke down to, so I figured that's what we'd start with. Jay: I love it. We're going to do a podcast on AI, and we've asked AI what it thinks first, and now we're going to psychoanalyze AI to see if it's in line. David: Well, to see how it lines up. Because one of the things that I found interesting was that when I asked it about multiplying sales, it was coming back with responses that talked about increasing sales. And so I asked it specifically to come up with recommendations based on multiplying sales. And at first it seemed resistant to that. So it talked about growing sales and multiplying sales. But this is where it landed. So I figured we'd start with this. Now, I had asked it to prioritize these things. I'm not quite sure if it did. But this is what it came back with. So the very first recommendation that it had in terms of multiplying sales. I'll tell you specifically what it said first and then we can discuss it. So the first thing that it recommended is it said: 1. Define Your Target Audience. Clearly identify your ideal customers and understand their needs, preferences, and pain points. So, that's how it started. What do you think of that take? Jay: It sounds very, very traditional, very typical, common knowledge. The first thing that I learned in a sales class years ago, identifying your target audience. But I feel like that's so basic, and when you talk about multiplying sales, I tend to think that's more about taking the existing clientele and getting them to spend more. That's what I think about. David: I tend to think that way as well, but I thought it's a pretty good jumping off point because whether your target audience means your existing clients and the new clients that you want to go after, I think it makes a whole lot of sense to lead with, determining who it is that you're going to be going after. I relate a lot of this to what we do in our Total Market Domination course. One of the very first things we do in our course is we have a three level system of targeting. So what AI is recommending here in sort of a general sense, in terms of defining your target market, is something that we really dive into pretty heavily with our clients. Because without that targeting up front, if you don't know exactly who it is that you're going after, who your ideal client is, the likelihood of bringing an ideal client through the door is Is generally slim to none. Jay: Yeah. And you know, we've talked a lot about this in the past that knowing who your target audience is,

When we talk about the idea of effective follow-up in sales, what does that mean? It's effective in terms of making sure that we're on the same page with the person, making sure that our conversations are moving forward, making sure that their questions are being answered, and ultimately getting to a decision. Are we going forward with this? Are we not? And if so, when is that going to happen? David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing effective follow-up. How much is too much? Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Thank you, David. Such an important question. And again, something that I struggle with. You know, I have a customer management system, and it shows me I talked to them three days ago. And it comes up on my tasks and it says it's time to talk to them. And I find every time I go through this emotional thing. Are they going to think I'm bugging them too soon? And a lot of times I'll say, let's give them three more days or let's give them two more days because I guess I'm not ready to talk to them or I'm afraid I'll be a bother. David: Yes, and you're not alone. Because it's pretty much impossible to know exactly how often to call any one given prospect, let alone all of them. It's not like there's one rule where you say you must call every other day or you must call every three days or every week or whatever your thing is. I mean, there are rules that have been put in place for salespeople to do that, and maybe it's not a terrible thing, but a system like that pretty much guarantees that you're going to be wrong as often as you're right. And so, if you understand that going in, one of the things that I think it's important to recognize is that people are going to sort of telegraph how annoying you're being, or how often they want to be in touch, want to have you in touch. And if you ask them more directly, they'll be a lot more inclined to give you an honest answer. If we make up our minds that we're going to contact this person every so many days, and that person doesn't want to hear from us that often, then obviously we're setting ourselves up for failure. So a lot of times, if we can find out from the prospect roughly how often they would like for us to be in touch with them, and it's easier to do with established clients, where you know them, they know you. With prospects, it's not as easy. But in the early stages with a prospect, we need to be in touch more frequently in order to get to decisions about qualification levels. Are they actually qualified to buy from us? Do they have the need, the desire, the money, the budget, the willingness to spend, the interest? Do they have any of those things? And if we can't determine that in the first conversation, we need to have a second conversation. But of course, their level of interest in that first conversation will also help us to determine, well, how much time should I give this person? And when I think about how much is too much, one of the things that I've seen a lot, and I saw it myself, in my own behaviors in the earlier stages of my sales career, and then in a lot of other people along the way, is that since we can't know how much is too much, many of us in sales tend to err on the side of too little contact rather than too much. And we talked about being a pest in a previous podcast. I don't want to be a pest. Therefore, I'm not going to pick up the phone and call. And the problem with that is that if we're not in touch with them, when they're ready to move forward, then someone else is going to get that business. So we have to find this balance of, yes, I don't want to be a pest, but also I'm not going to abandon this person so that somebody else can get in there and get that business while I've been working to cultivate it over a long period of time. Jay: Yeah, and it could be that depending on what type of product, there's a time limit as well.

The idea of The Four Mores is to recognize that if you want to maximize profit but you're just focusing on bringing in more clients -- you are very likely missing out on 75% of the available profits that are going to come from these other three quadrants. Maximize Profit with The Four Mores David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. Today, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be talking about The Four Mores: More clients, more money, more margin, more often. Great to see you again, Jay. Jay: Yeah, it's good to be here. And I feel like there's one more more, if you can get all of those. More happiness and more peace of mind, right? David: Yeah. That's true. There are more than four mores. Jay: Yes. Quadrant #1: More Clients David: I think that what we're thinking of here is that these four mores are designed to increase the value of our clients and increase the value of our businesses. A lot of times when people are thinking in terms of growing their sales and profits, they think in terms of the first more. They think in terms of more clients. “I need to get more clients, “I need to get more business.” And so many business owners focus their time and attention exclusively on bringing in more customers. And sometimes what ends up happening is they forget about the ones that they have. And they start to lose track of the fact that they could be drifting off. Anyone who's been in business for any length of time has heard the old adage that it costs a whole lot more to bring in a new customer than it does to resell an existing customer or to satisfy an existing customer. Stop Missing Out But it's easy to lose sight of. And so the idea of The Four Mores is to recognize that if you're just focusing on one thing -- bringing in more clients -- you are very likely missing out on 75% of the available profits that are going to come from these other three quadrants. Jay: Wow. That's very good. And kind of like we talked about last time, moving people into that center zone, that loyalty zone. Right? David: Yes. Jay: And then, if they're reoccurring, I mean it just makes life so much better. If you have a loyal base and then you're bringing in more clients, to me it's just the perfect pattern, right? David: Yeah, it does. So now we've got sort of conflicting visual images, however. Because last time we were talking about a target. Now we're talking about quadrants, but it's all designed to accomplish the same thing. Which is to get more of our clients buying from us more often. Spending more money with us at higher profit margins so that we can continue to grow the business, service those people. And without the profit part of it, you're dead in the water. I mean, you cannot continue to operate without that. So each of these four components is absolutely critical to being able to grow the business the way that we want to do it. What About Quality of Life? Jay: Yeah. A good, healthy business that is making money, is growing, has loyal customers. And hopefully giving you peace of mind and maybe some quality of life. Right? David: Exactly. Yeah. Quality of life is a nice bonus for some people . It should be a requirement, but it's not always a requirement. Sometimes we sacrifice quality of life just to reach our financial goals. Sometimes, particularly in the early stages of a business. But eventually, yeah, we learn. But one of the things about this topic that I think is so important is that when you look at each of these four elements and you focus on them and you focus on improving them, it does improve your quality of life. Because now you're not investing a lot of time on aspects of the business that are less important. Because if you think about the idea of bringing more clients through the door, obviously that's an important consideration. When you think of the idea of when I talk about more clients, more money, more margin, more often. More clients,

If our storytelling allows us to build trust, build credibility, build a bond, and increase sales, then we're telling the right stories. If it's just designed to be manipulative, then save your breath. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. In today's episode, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the power of storytelling in sales. Jay, tell me a story. Jay: Listen, I am a storyteller. I love to tell stories and I like to build when I tell stories, right? And so this is something that I use on a regular basis when I'm talking to people and it's not just telling a story. I think it's putting people in a story and what character are they in that story? And I think most people want to be the hero in their own story, right? David: They do. which gets to the whole idea of the hero's journey and all that kind of stuff for anybody who follows that sort of storyline or that Jay: mm-hmm. David: type of story arc, The Hero's Journey by Campbell, I can't think of his first name. But it's a book and it describes essentially the plot of most of the most popular movies of all time. Jay: Yeah, David: Right. Star Wars, Rocky, anything where you've got this person who is initially kind of beaten down and not winning, and then they come in contact with a mentor and then they learn new things and they have a confrontation and it might not go well, and then they learn some more things and then eventually they come out triumphant. There's a whole arc. And you're right, a lot of people want to be the hero, and the challenge as a salesperson is, in our storytelling, we can't be the hero. Mm. Right. We need to make sure that the person we're talking to is the hero and that we are the mentor or guide. We're not Luke Skywalker. We have to be Yoda. We have to be the one who's helping Luke to destroy the Death Star. Jay: Yeah. This is a really hard thing, I think for a lot of people. Because we want to go in and think we're the hero, right? I'm coming into your business. I'm going to provide something that is going to save the day, and then I'm going to walk away and you're going to praise me and you're going to pay me. But that's not what really is supposed to be happening, right? It's that I have the tools and the resources that you need to be the hero. David: Yes, and it's easy to forget that, particularly when we're trying to read ourselves in as the hero to each story. But one of the things that I've noticed in sales is that many, if not most of the very best salespeople are also the best storytellers. You can say. "Hi, do you know what time it is?" And instead of getting the time, you will get a fantastic story that might weave the time into it. Jay: Mm. David: But you're going off in all kinds of directions, and when they do it right, it's captivating enough that you sit there and pay attention. Jay: Yeah. But you pointed out "when you do it right." David: Yes. Jay: Right. so let's talk about that a little bit. Let's talk about your feedback on doing it right. David: Well, number one, as we already touched on, it can't just be all about you. You can't make the story about yourself. You need to make it about them, and a lot of that upfront comes from finding out about them, which means you're asking more questions, then you're answering, hopefully in the early stages. Jay: Yes David: Because customers always just want to know what it's going to cost upfront, and you don't generally want to lead off with that. So a lot of our storytelling will actually have to come from the conversations that ensue after we've gathered enough information. Jay: Yeah. David: To know what those stories need to be about. If we just go in and we meet somebody for the first time and we start telling them stories, that's probably not ideal. We need to still initially do some sort of diagnostic upfront to find out what their interests are. Now, of course,

Okay... today's episode is a SPIRITUAL SUNDAY episode. That's the day of the week we reserve to talk about and/or dig into spiritual stuff. But hey... if this isn't your jam... feel free to skip to another episode! No harm... no foul! Today... as this goes LIVE... it's Easter. So... HAPPY EASTER TO YOU! We all know that the Easter story is the ultimate come back story of ALL TIME! But today... I felt the "nudge" you might need to hear about a lesser known come back story... buried in the Old Testament. It's a story of when David (Yes... THAT David... of David and Goliath fame) was at his lowest point. That's right. He'd been hit by a series of incredible setbacks... all at once. Seriously... the future King hit bedrock. Beat up. Abandoned. Now... THIS is one of my favorite... of all time... Bible stories... and recently my wife asked me why. Well... in THIS episode I tell you... not only... why it's one of my favorites but I also share why it reminds us that a BREAKTHROUGH might be right around the corner! Stay encouraged my friend and we'll talk tomorrow. _______________ Be sure to hit me up with questions at www.encouragingtheencouragers.com and I'll answer them as we go! Check it out and be sure to grab our free "WELL PAID ENCOURAGER'S SECRET TOOL BOX!"  (Plus... that's how you can start to get emails from me to stay in the know!) Be sure to check out my other podcast called "DREAM THINK DO too: here And hey... let's connect on Facebook and Instagram too! #letsdothis #IlovejesusbutIcussalittle #coaching #speaker #lifecoach #motivation #lifecoaching #coaching #love #coach #mindset #inspiration #selflove #life #selfcare #success #lifestyle #mentalhealth #mindfulness #personaldevelopment #entrepreneur #goals #happiness #loveyourself #meditation #healing #motivationalquotes #lifequotes #fitness #positivevibes #motivationalspeaker #businesscoach #personalgrowth #business

Morgan Smith: You're listening to the Raise Your Hand Texas IntersectEd podcast where the stories of public education policy and practice meet. I'm your host, Morgan Smith. And today we're talking about the amount of money Texas pays to educate a student in public schools. This topic is notoriously complicated and can be very dense, but I've tracked down some very knowledgeable people to help guide us through it. We have three guests with us today, Laura Yeager, a public school parent and founder of Just Fund It TX, a nonpartisan group of parents, students, and community members, Bob Popinski, Raise Your Hand's, resident school finance and policy expert, and David Pate, the assistant superintendent of finance for Richardson Independent School District, which operates 55 campuses and serves more than 39,000 students in the suburban Dallas area.So right now, we are in the middle of the legislative session we've been hearing since last summer about this record-breaking budget surplus, lawmakers have to work with a historic $33 billion surplus. Plus there's tens of billions more in estimated growth in revenue over the next two years. Meanwhile, depending on what measure you use, Texas ranks at least in the bottom 10 states in public school funding. So the money is there. It's clear Texas is behind where we should be. So why can't we just give the schools what they need? Well, as I said, this is complicated. Here we go.Bob, so today we're going to be focusing on what's known as the basic allotment or the per-student sum the state uses as the foundational building block to determine how much money it will pay to educate a student. Could you start us off here by explaining how the basic allotment works in conjunction with the rest of school funding.Bob Popinski: Yeah, absolutely. The basic allotment is actually the building block of how we fund our students and our schools, and pay for our teachers and the operations of everything that goes on within a campus and a school district.So back in 2019, when they went through a lot of school funding changes, they set the basic allotment at $6,160. That's the basic building block per student. Now, if you have special characteristics, say you're a special education needs student or you qualify for free reduced lunch or you're in the bilingual program or you're in the gifted and talented program, you get additional dollars attached to that way. And so as you use that basic building block, you create what's known as an entitlement and that entitlement varies from school district to school district. But on average, it's about $10,000 per student. Now, it could be a couple $1,000 more in a school district or a couple $1,000 less in a school district. But on average it's $10,000. So that's kind of where we start. That $6,106 has kind of been set in stone for school districts for the last three years. And so there's really only a few ways to increase revenue for your students. You could either go out for a tax rate election or you could get additional revenue through enrollment increases or attendance. So we're really dependent on the state to do one thing and that's increase the basic allotment. So it flows through the rest of the formulas so that our school districts can actually give teachers pay raises and staff pay raises and operate the schools with our 5.4 million kids and over 375,000 teachers.Morgan: So David, what does the basic allotment mean to you in practical terms as you're working on a school budget? And why don't you also give our listeners a sense for where budget matters stand in Richardson.David Pate: On where budget matters stand for Richardson, our demographers are predicting that we're going to lose about 8000 students over the next 10 years. And we adopted a $26 million deficit for fiscal year, 22-23. And, for us, right now we're trying to figure out how we're going to provide raises to teachers, how we're going to provide for our cost increases. So the basic allotment, it is the major driver. When we're looking at 16% or 17% cost increases, we're having difficulty staffing. We're competing with quite a few districts here in the North Texas area for staff trying to raise our teachers starting salary.For instance, in our case, which we are different from all the other districts on this measure here in Dallas County, about 40% of our students are not economically disadvantaged. And then we've got another 20% of our students are not only economically disadvantaged, but they're living in the highest level of poverty according to the state measures. And so trying to meet the needs of those two groups in a situation where costs are increasing in revenue is declining is very challenging.Morgan: So you use the basic allotment, you pay for teacher salaries, you pay for support staff like classroom aides, cafeteria workers, bus drivers, I mean, the basic allotment really is the biggest part of your budget.David: Yes, it funds the basic needs of the district.Morgan: Laura, I want to bring you in here because you experience the hardships that districts go through when they have budget shortfalls from the parent side. Can you tell us what happened in 2018 when your child was a junior in high school in the Austin Independent School District?Laura: Sure thing. Thank you, Morgan. Yes, my three kids went through Austin ISD and my youngest was a junior at McCallum High School here in Austin. And she came home from school and said, “Mom, kids are crying in the halls and people are up in arms. We're worried they're going to close our Fine Arts Academy,” which is this beloved institution, one of many choices within Austin ISD. And a few of us got together to try to understand what was going on and it ended up being that Austin was facing a $30 million budget deficit and looking at things to cut. And that's when several of us decided to get together and try to help parents and community members understand how school funding works because that $30 million budget deficit was something Austin was facing. But really, it was a result of how our state funds our public schools. And so that's when Just Fund It started. And it was interesting because parents don't always think about funding. There are things that kids and parents think about every day. But funding was really hitting us at home because it was getting to the point where it was threatening just basic programs that we all rely on and parents pay, they see these growing property tax bills and think when they are paying them to the school district that they are either going to their district or a different school district through our recapture Robin Hood, what you want to call it, what people didn't understand is we're paying billions of dollars in that are then being just not given to any school district, they're going to the bottom line or to the surplus in this case. And I believe, Bob may be able to tell you better, but I think it's $8.2 billion of local school property taxes that have been paid in by parents that are going to the surplus. So we thought there was some educating that had to be done to help parents understand, to learn how to advocate, and also to educate legislators on how far behind we really are and that parents and students care that their schools are funded.Morgan: Well, so that brings us back around to the legislature. Bob, Governor Greg Abbott has been very vocal on education issues this session and one thing I've been hearing a lot from him and some other lawmakers as they talk about public schools is this idea that they have more money than they've ever had before. Is that true? And how do we square that with what we're hearing from parents and educators around the state?Bob: I think if you look at what your own household budget has done over the last three years, you can get a good glimpse of what's happening to a school district in terms of just purchasing power being the same as it was in 2019.Since 2019, inflation has gone up double digits, and the Comptroller has estimated inflation has gone up 12.5%. In some cases, it's even more than that. If you look at individual things that you're spending your money on. For some districts, fuel has gone up 40% if not more, insurance for their building and their buses have gone up double digits, food service, 25% in some instances. Even health insurance has gone up drastically and construction has gone up 50%. And so school districts are in a pinch just to keep up with inflation. And so if you look at what's needed to kind of keep up with that basic allotment of $6,160 for the same purchasing power they had back in 2019, it needs to be $1,000 higher.And so that's what we're aiming for, is to make sure that the basic allotment actually keeps pace with inflation and so with that, we're recommending that they invest more into public education. And, Laura is right. It's kind of the basics of school finance – if you don't want to kind of get into the weeds, is that as local property values increase, that means local taxpayers are paying more for the overall school entitlement and the state has to pay less. So the state, because the local value increases, saved roughly $8.2 billion last biennium for last state's budget and we want them to reinvest that back into our 5.4 million students.Morgan: So let's talk about inflation for a second. We've mentioned the last time the state increased the basic allotment in 2019. That's four years ago now. And then depending on what measure you use, there's been between 12% to 16% inflation. David, can you give us some specific examples of how that's affected your budgeting process in Richardson?David: Yes, our utility costs have been increasing substantially and Bob mentioned property insurance. That's one of the things that for us that we just recently did property insurance and it increased $900,000. So that increase of $900,000 is about 13 teachers for us.Morgan: Wow. So Bob, if I'm understanding correctly, there's not a mechanism that adjusts state funding for schools based on inflation. School districts have to come back every so often and ask for more money. And it kind of sounds like you're just asking to be funded at the same levels as you were in 2019, accounting for inflation.Bob: At a minimum, absolutely.Morgan: Yeah, at a minimum.Bob: I think because we're $1,000 below where we needed to be from 2019 because of inflation, that doesn't even consider that Texas is in the bottom 10. We're $4,000 behind the national average. And so what we're recommending is not only to catch up for where we need to be, but actually create an inflation adjustment so that school district don't have to come back every other year during a legislative session and say, “Hey, look, we, we need more funding just to keep pace with what's going on out in the world so that we can cover all of our expenses, so that we can give teachers a pay raise.”If you look at the Charles Butt Foundation poll from earlier in the year, 77% of our teachers are considering leaving the profession, and pay is a big important factor in that. We're $7,500 below the national average and inflation is catching up with our teachers' pockets books as well. Living expenses, being able to afford a home in some of these cities across the state. It's very difficult to keep teachers in the profession and school districts need to be able to compete.Morgan: Laura, I want to come back to you because through your work with Just Fund It and other grassroots education efforts, you have so much experience helping parents and community members develop political literacy around these issues. Can you tell us a little bit about what is at stake here if the legislature doesn't provide an increase to the basic allotment this session?Laura: I mean, it's hard to overstate it. There's just so much at stake. I mean the ability of our public schools to educate 5.4 million kids. We need more funding to keep up with kids around the country. We did increase funding in 2019, but everyone else did too and the national averages moved up and we are really no better than we were then and worse off because of the inflation situation that you just heard about. I mean, our schools need funds to address student needs so they can thrive.And as we mentioned before, funding is a little tricky because it's not felt directly, people feel it and then they blame the district and, there may be issues within a district but really it's so confusing. Administrators work so hard to shield students and teachers as much as possible and do whatever they can with the limited resources they have. And we are ranked better than we are funded in terms of actual output, but it just shows that we have been really squeezing our educators to do what they can with so little resources and it's unsustainable.It's being felt more and more by teachers and students and families from teacher burnout to overcrowded classrooms. We need counselors and mental health resources and more. And so all of this really comes back to increasing the basic allotment to make sure every single kid in the state of Texas has what they need to thrive.I'll mention that well-regarded economist, Dr. Ray Perryman, updated a study on the return on investment of every single dollar in public ed. And it's, it's almost unbelievable.It's the single best investment the state could make. And what they found was every dollar the state invests in Public Ed yields a lifetime economic benefit of almost $57. which includes benefits to the private sector, personal income. I mean, it's literally the highest return on investment of any public or private sector investment. And then just lastly I'll say, when we started Just Fund It we made a very clear point of doing something different.That we were not going to let the legislature do what they're so good at doing, which is dividing to conquer, dividing rich against poor, large, against small urban, against rural.And that we fight for every single kid in the state of Texas to be better than bottom-of-the-barrel funding. The way you do that is by increasing the basic allotment. Morgan: Please, David, why don't you give us a sense for what's at stake in Richardson?David: Well, so as we've been going through our budget meetings with the board, really since January, we've been presenting options for the opportunities we have to increase revenue here in the district. And there's really three options for us. We're one of three districts in Dallas County that still offers a local optional homestead exemption. That is an option our board could exercise and eliminate that. That would give us one-time funding of about $7.8 million.We can open our enrollment to students that are not residents of the district and that's going to generate somewhere between about $7,000 to $10,000 per student depending on the specific educational attributes of those students, whether they're, in generating bilingual funding or CTE funding, etc. And, that really just depends on how many students want to choose to come here who don't live here. We could have called a V A T R E. Our voters approved a tax ratification election back in November of 2018, which was then compressed.So we've got about a little over three cents. We could go back to the voters, which would generate about $3 million net to recapture. And then it's really a matter of, what can we do to reduce expenditures? When we start backing out the things that we have to do. So, I've got to pay the utility bill and I've gotta have property insurance. I've got to pay the Dallas Central Appraisal District. When you start backing out those kinds of activities, you're left really with people. And so, we had a staffing study performed and we're presenting that information to the board and it will be tough making any of these decisions.Everybody is attached to their individual campus and the staff in those campuses, those are their friends and neighbors. And so any time you start talking about making cuts in the school district, it's difficult.Morgan: Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you're doing what good school administrators do and is trying to kind of consider all options before you start kind of hitting things that are really going to affect the people in your district community. So we set up top that there's plenty of money to go around this session. What Bob is the challenge to getting this accomplished? Bob: Texas has a pretty substantial two-year budget. A lot of moving pieces. There's other programs other than public education, but public education is one of the largest expenses our state has. It's a $70 billion per year system when you take into account state and local revenue. Right now we have a house budget that's moving through the process. They're going to hear that pretty soon. We have a Senate budget that's moving through the process and they both have $5 billion in there for public education.Now, you remember what I said, we need at least $1,000 increase in the basic allotment just to keep pace with inflation. The price tag on $1,000 basic allotment increase is about $14 billion for the state budget and both sides right now are putting in $5 billion and it's not just for the basic allotment. There's a lot of other programs that they're funding on top of that. So what actually flows to school districts and to our students is going to be a lot less than that for operating expenses. And so we need to make sure that our members know as they continue these budget discussions that we're woefully short of where we need to be. And, so as they start moving through the process with less than 60 days left here, I think the more school districts and teachers and the general public and community leaders speak up that schools actually need more funding just to keep pace with inflation, is very important. We've got a long way to go in the session. And so I think it's time that our members hear from our communities.Morgan: Well, thank you. We're going to have to end here today.Thanks to Laura Yeager, Bob Popinski, and David Pate for being here and to you our audience for listening. And I also want to let you know that to stay informed on school finance and other critical education issuesToday's episode was written and narrated by me, Morgan Smith. Our Sound Engineer is Brian Diggs and Executive Producer is Anne Lasseigne Tiedt.As the 88th Session progresses, you can sign up online for Raise Your Hand Texas' Across the Lawn weekly newsletter and you can find that at www.raiseyourhandtexas.org/get-involved. 

Welcome to the second conversation in the new Portals series “Current Openings — What the World Doesn't Quite Get Yet.” It's a different approach to exploring what's appearing in the “current,” or flow, of new intelligence and evolutionary possibility washing across humanity and the planet.David Price Francis, author, spiritual teacher and co - founder of Energy Worlds , joins Aviv Shahar in the Current series, this time for a new perspective on natural laws — the universal principles and forces at play in every level o f life on this planet and throughout the cosmos. Natural laws are the invisible infrastructure and core energies that support and influence all human activity and future possibility.Consider duality: the law of opposites. Positive and negative; inhale and exhale; the planet's two poles. How do we embody the balance but also rise above it? Move forward while also escaping the pull of polarity. It's the same with all the laws: finding the harmony and consciousness that will liberate more of our innate capacity.With awareness of natural laws and their connection to universal processes, we are able to accelerate our personal development and become conscious contributors in the unfolding future of humanity and the planet.This wide - ranging conversation unveils new insights about living in harmony with the natural laws and their effect on human capacity for refinement and personal growth, including:We want to align with the natural laws to become conscious in our life and get better results in whatever space we operate in"Trinity consciousness" is the smart person who is neither red nor blue, conservative nor liberal, but moves from being bipolar to the third vector and works with bothThe ability to turn our back on something is a powerful part of life and dev elopment. The exhaustion of our negation capacity is a trigger for mental disordersThere's a natural law that governs how the planet receives and expresses universal energy through a seven - fold system; just look at a rainbowBeing conscious of the natural laws that govern our life enables us to participate in pulling the levers of our development rather than being played by the lawsEvery domain in life has an essence core that is surrounded by many layers and enclosures we must first penetrate to be admit ted to the coreBeing in harmony with the natural laws enables the esoteric musician to create music that can heal the pain of people in grief or inspire spiritual upliftThe alchemists were expressing a system of universal laws with what they called the a ngels: earth, water, air, and fire, and the fifth, essenceHumans have something special, like a superpower — the depth of the power we can access inside ourselves. The world might hypnotize the conscious brain, but our unconscious connects to the natural laws, which are universal in originThis conversation is part of the continuing Portals discovery into what is emerging on the frontiers of human experience in this time of profound change. Information about upcom ing special events can be found on the Events page. Also visit and subscribe to our YouTube channel. TWEETABLE QUOTES “I think with the esoteric comes another unders tanding, which is that we can only develop as human beings in accordance and in alignment with the workings of natural laws and principles. ” ( David )“So, humans have a certain perimeter within which we can gather and within which we can operate. If we choose to try and fly on our own using our own kind of equipment, unlike birds, we're not able. Now, we're clever. We have use of a very advanced brain, more so than anything else on the planet, I believe, and that therefore means that we can manipulate the laws. We can operate inside the laws to create machinery to then enable ourselves to operate within those laws.” ( David )“For every creation, there's a reaction; for every positive action, there's a reaction coming the other way. So, right now, if we look at, say, the realm of politics, we can see the same natural law, universal law, playing out mostly unconsciously. And this to me is the big feature, which is that human development works by becoming increasingly conscious of these laws and therefore being able to use them towards the development and growth purpose.” ( David )“So, being able to position oneself inside understanding that law of human life that we have the power of positive and negative, we could say we have the ability to accept things with one hand and deny them with the other.” ( David )“Yes, so in relationships there are definite laws by which relationships work. It seems to be like this random, do I love him or her? Do I not? Are we soulmates? Are we twin flames? You get it, all this stuff. And I tell folks, psychology usually governs astrology these days for multiple reasons I won't go into too much. But it's the wish at the end of the story instead of, they lived happily ever after. It should be, “...and then the work really started.” (David) RESOURCES MENTIONED Portals of Perception WebsiteAviv's LinkedIn Aviv's TwitterAviv's Websitehttps://energyworlds.com/https://portalsofperception.org/portals/current-openings-series/

In the studio, today is David D'Arcangelo, Commissioner of the Massachusetts Commission for the Blind. David has focused on making MCB the best it can be. Learn about the concept of disability as a qualification, the Accessibility Technology Survey, the entrepreneurial program developed with NIB, and dig into the 32 reallotment projects MCB has done over the past few years.   David is the Idea Guy and shares a lot of information in this brief 30-minute conversation.   Find out more about what is happening at MCB:     MCB Home Page 2020 Reallotment Project Summary 2021 Reallotment Project Summary   Listen Here   Full Transcript {Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is David D'Arcangelo, Commissioner of the Massachusetts Commission for the Blind. Thanks for joining me today, David. How are things going in Massachusetts?   David: Going very well. Looking forward to a great 2023. And thanks for having me again.   Carol: You bet. Me too. I love this 2023. I have my little resolutions for this year. You know, I really want to be intentional. That's one of my things. So I know I had you on the show over a year ago and we were talking about some of your great employment strategies during National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And you have had so many cool initiatives going on in your state that I think of you as the Idea Guy. I put you and Joe Xavier from California up there as two bold leaders in VR that we can all learn something from. Now, I know you've been keeping your head down and really looking forward focused on making your agency the very best it can be. And it also seemed like you were having some just really amazing employment successes for customers during COVID. So now more than ever, we need to take some serious steps to address the problem of spending VR dollars and improving outcomes. And you started looking at the problem when you first started at MCB and you hit the ground running. So let's dig in. I know we have lots to talk about. So David, can you remind our listeners about yourself? Where did you come from and how long have you been at MCB?   David: Sure. Well, I'm a consumer of MCB also, and being legally blind from a young age. I remember getting VR services back when I was in junior high school and high school. So that's really my first impression with MCB was as a consumer, as a young man. But since joining MCB in 2018, I came over from the Office on Disability, where I was the director of the Massachusetts Office on Disability. So when the MCB position opened up and got an opportunity to serve. And, making great strides for these past five years and looking forward to hopefully more time to be able to get our people employed and help lead our people to more independence and self determination.   Carol: That's awesome. So can you tell us a little bit about MCB? Like, how many staff do you guys have and how many customers are you serving currently?   David: Sure. So we're one of the first blindness agencies in the country. We often argue with Connecticut, if they were first, we were first, but we were established in 1906 with one of our first commissioners being Helen Keller. So we have a long history and track record of providing services for people with blindness throughout Massachusetts. We currently serve approximately 24,000 people in Massachusetts with all types of services. Massachusetts is a little bit different than many of the other states. We don't provide just for VR services, and that's not to diminish VR services, but we also provide what we call our services or social rehabilitation services and deafblind extended support services. So we serve people who are blind and deafblind and people with blindness and then additional significant disabilities. So that adds up. Our 24,000 people and our range of blindness really is the whole spectrum. So everybody from hi partial and legally blind like me all the way to somebody who has no light perception at all. And we know from the data that we've collected that actually there's probably more people at MCB as consumers who have visions closer to me than vision, closer to somebody who has no light perception at all. So we've got some data that's going to be coming out that I would encourage everybody to look at. We did an assistive technology survey recently with all of our consumers that really reveals information that I think people will take notice of because many times people were thinking that, oh, well, your consumers, they can't see, so they're not on the Internet or they're not taking part with this technology. And our survey really sheds new light on that. So stay tuned for that. You can check that out on our website, Mass.gov/MCB. It's really going to be an important survey when we reveal these results. It's going to be eye opening for people.   Carol: Well, cool. Yeah. Shoot me a note when that comes out. I'm really interested in seeing that. Do you also serve individuals like starting as babies? Like because some programs I know do that. We did not in Minnesota but I know some start very young with kids.   David: Yeah in Massachusetts we serve people from birth to death. So cradle to grave with all of our services and the social rehabilitation services that we provide are really geared around independence and self determination. So we will start providing services as soon as somebody gets that mandatory report of legal blindness and they're declared, which we are the keeper of, that we register somebody as legally blind after their doctor, their eye care provider, has provided us with that record. And then we get the services flowing, whether it's teaching Braille or providing assistive technology, orientation and mobility, training, all of these core services, we really believe getting those in place first.   Carol: Yeah   David: That's really going to help in terms of VR. It's setting the bedrock so people are already independent and self determined and then can focus on their career goals.   Carol: Yes. So smart. You've got the foundational pieces in place and early, you know, you're getting at the students early, which is incredible. That is great. That is great. So I really liked your getting grounded in that three part framework. You talk about it and I was reading it again on your website about the Path to Prosperity is Paved with Perseverance. Can you tell me more about that?   David: Sure. Carol, thanks. Really. I first said that publicly during the commencement address that I gave for Lesley University's Threshold Program. Lesley University has a great program for people with intellectual disabilities where they provide a college like experience. And back in 2017, when I was director of the state's Office on Disability, I had the great opportunity to be able to provide the commencement address there. And that's really where I first laid out that I believe the path to prosperity is paved by perseverance. Or what does that mean? I think that becoming employed is not a one step thing. There are many steps on that path on your career journey. So we really try to instill in to our consumers here at MCB that there is no get rich quick scheme. This is not a one click approach like so many of us are conditioned today through these devices and through technology. Just one click in your in. Getting a career, getting employed, getting your job, getting on that path to prosperity takes many steps. You got to hang in there because it's not easy. If it was easy, it would be done easily and everybody would do it. Everybody would be a multimillionaire. It takes many steps and depending upon your disability or in mass commission for the blind on your blindness, there's such a spectrum. And really we have to work with everybody individually because everybody is in a different stage in life. And some people are aging into blindness. Some people, it comes upon them quickly. Some people have it from a young age, some people come to it at mid age. It's so different for everybody. And we really just want to make sure that people are clear what the expectations that we're going to be with them through their journey along this path and that it does take time. All good things come in time. So that's really what the path to prosperity is paved with. Perseverance is about that you've got to persevere. These are challenging things. The very essence of being a person with a disability. Disability comes with challenge, It does. And so we try to get people to accept their disability, accept that challenge and then help them work through it. And so I believe in people and I believe anybody can become employed. I think work matters. I think it goes to the identity of a person. If I were to see you in the grocery store and we would have strike up a conversation, invariably one of the first questions that you or I would ask each other is, Well, so what do you do? And if you're employed, you're going to tell me about your job because it goes to the identity, it goes to who you are and what you're accomplishing. So work matters. Our consumers matter, and that's why we want to try to get them employed, because there's so many contributions in our community that we're trying to bring out for the benefit of our consumers, but also for the benefit of society. I really believe that our people have a lot to give and you've got to hang in there. That's part of being on the path to prosperity.   Carol: I think that is one of the cool things with blind services. It's very foundational. All the things that you have to learn. And I remember being at Minnesota blind and just seeing that, especially with people that came in that were new to their vision loss and it happened abruptly. Something happened, an illness or something overnight almost, and you wake up and you can't see and everything changes. How you read, how you get around in the world, how you get around in your home and your clothes and like how you do everything and having to learn all those foundational pieces first and getting that acceptance and then working on work skills because you can't just launch right into that when somebody goes, I don't even know if I'm wearing the orange socks with the black suit. I don't know what I have on.   David: One of the initiatives we've been working on and we keep advancing is something that I came up with about ten years ago that I've been trying to encourage people in VR to embrace, and that is the concept of disability as a qualification. I really believe that the lived experience that our people have to learn to problem solve around is a qualification in and of itself. Let me give you an example. If I were to take somebody with good vision and ask them to cross a busy intersection, they probably wouldn't think twice of it. Right?   Carol: Right.   David:  But to take one of our consumers who can't see and ask them to cross an intersection, the skills involved and the intestinal fortitude involved with crossing that intersection. You know what? I want that person on my team, if they're going to be able to go out and have the intestinal fortitude to be able to do that and then the demonstrated skill to be able to do it, because that takes sophistication, if that life experience does not qualify you for some type of role that deals with problem solving. How many employment opportunities are there out there for people who are good problem solvers, for people that have a solid backbone and won't just roll over? Right?   Carol: Right. I love that you say that.   David: Those are qualifications, those matter.   Carol: They do matter. So I'm just going to say a little thing about me. When we were in Minnesota at the blind agency, all of the leadership team and the VR counselors, the staff, you had to go through six weeks of sleep shade training, so you were under sleep shades for six weeks. And so doing that as a new director myself, having that experience, it's just a taste, but we did go to one of our Adjustment to Blindness Training Centers. We had the experience of the classes all day under sleep shades. I still remember at the end of the day, walking out. I had my cane. I was still had my sleep shades on. I'd taken them off and I got in my car. I scared a lady that was across the street. She's like, That blind lady is driving now, but getting that very firsthand experience about that problem solving that goes into everything you do during the day that is so interesting and very applicable to the world of work, for sure.   David: Yeah. So that's why we're pushing disability as a qualification. We believe that those lived experiences are going to help employers and a really good qualifications for employees.   Carol: Yeah, that's very cool. Very interesting thought. So I want to take you back to 2020. You asked for reallotment dollars, but you had some very specific initiatives you wanted to accomplish and in fact, you were dealing with the pandemic and you wanted to figure out your role in pioneering a path forward in a post-COVID recovery. So talk to me about what went into that 2020 that ask for reallotment dollars and kind of how you framed up all of those initiatives.   David: Sure. Well, we wanted to make the best use of our time knowing that we were not going to have the community interactions and be able to travel freely like we had been doing. So we said, let's study this and let's come up with some things now, some of the things we had put in motion, some of the plans that we had put in motion were prior to COVID. So it seemed that we were prescient on some of them, like our ad campaign we did, What's Your Vision? So now we've been on Massachusetts television with our announcements, not just public service announcements, but paid ads to be able to get the message out to employers, Hey, we've got candidates for you and get the message out to our consumers that, hey, we'll work with you to get on this path to employment. So there's campaigns like that. But then we followed it up. Once we knew COVID was in there and we did our Quest for Independence, which is a graphic novel which is aimed at not only the consumer, but people in the consumer's sphere of influence, their brothers, their sisters, their fathers and mothers and guidance counselors and people there so that those people can understand the path to employment that we lay out in the process that we do. So it starts at pre training and goes through all of the steps along the way and we make it like a questing journey. We made it like kind of cool and try to put it in a format that people of Pre-ETS age would be more apt to buy into. So many of the VR documents are black and white text only small print, like who's reading that? Who's consuming that? Certainly not a 15 or 18 year old person that we're trying to get interested in the workforce. So whether it's things like that or whether it's studying Disability as a Qualification that we just talked about or trying to do some of the other surveys that we put together, we really tried to make the best use of our time. I think in all total now we're up to 32 or 34 reallotment projects that we've done over the past three or four years.   Carol: Oh my gosh!   David: Yeah. We've really tried to make good use of our time and build the catalog of information. And all of this is available to VR people if they want to visit our website again, Mass.gov/MCB. All of the re allotment projects are out there. We have studies on the Built Environment in the Workplace. We have studies on Disability as a Qualification on Assistive Technology. So many different topics we have data on as well as these ad campaigns. We did one with Sleep Machine recently. We worked up 16 different types of consumers and interactions that it's not a one size fits all approach. We really got it into 16 different approaches, so it tries to suit all of the different demographic areas, and that's a VR approach that we took so many different projects that we encourage people to find out more on our website.   Carol: I know you did a lot of data analysis. There were a lot of projects around different data analysis, so maybe talk about one or two of those and how you used that data to now kind of inform your programming or whatever you're doing now at the agency.   David: Well, the assistive technology one is a perfect example like. When I came to MCB and I said, I want to do a survey, they kind of like chuckled and I'm like, Why do you want to do? And I said, Well, how many of our people have email or how many of them use the Internet? I remember distinctly without naming names, but some really veteran VR people saying, none of our people use the Internet Commissioner or they don't do this. Well, come to find out that 70% use it daily. That right there was like informing our programming because no longer was I going to allow this myth to be put forward that our people don't use the Internet. That's just not so. Now we've got to make sure that we're making these sites accessible. So a recent proposal that I've been working on is a registered apprenticeship program for our consumers who are blind. Who better to make these websites accessible than people who are already using screen reader technology? So we're trying to get two registered apprenticeships, one in making web pages accessible, and then the other for making other online things accessible apps and forms and documents online and things like in the electronic space. So we're working right now with the Department of Labor, but we're also seeking other states. You need five states to be able to make a cohort to do it. So if people are interested in joining our cohort, please contact us and let us know if you want to join in this registered apprenticeship program that we're going to be launching soon.   Carol: That's super cool and very smart and needed. I mean, there's a lot of sites, a lot of websites in a lot of trouble because they are not accessible. I love that you did the Assistive Technology survey. I've thought for years, like the invention of Apple and the iPhone and all of that single handedly changed just information for people who are blind, visually impaired because that device is accessible and it was built-in. There's so many cool apps now and things out there that our folks are using now. I know you also contracted out for your comprehensive Statewide Needs Assessment and that that isn't necessarily new. A lot of states do that because it's much easier to contract with someone than do it yourself. But what was different about that particular assessment and how do you use the information that you got from that?   David: Yeah, again, I think that was the one where we put it out there and the awarded bidder I think was the public consulting group. So they're a pretty big firm. They had worked in other states before. I think one of the things that they had worked in was like Indiana. And so we work with them. Obviously our sister agency, MRC, we wanted to make sure that we were kind of on the same page as well. So I think that helped and really it helped strengthen the things that we already knew we were doing well. They really came in and were able to look at that and say, Yeah, you know what, you should probably keep doing that. Did identify some areas and we've made some adjustments as well. And I think now in this post COVID world, we were prescient that we were trying to already get our people to be able to work remotely, whether it be our staff, who a significant amount of our staff are actually our consumers also, which were very prideful in that they'd been remote prior to COVID. And so now the trends in employment with less and less people in an office environment, we really were again, a little bit ahead of the curve in trying to predict that We think that's where the workforce is going. There's going to be more and more opportunities that are away from an office environment. So if you can work online effectively, that's just going to increase opportunities for our consumers.   Carol: Oh, I agree 100%. So how has all of this helped your numbers? Like where are you at today? Do you feel like have things moved up or are you getting customers back? How about people getting into employment, all these different initiatives? Has it led to some success and outcomes?   David: Yes, it has led to success and outcomes. Our numbers are up generally across the board. There's a couple of exceptions, but things we really like to talk about is the nature of the jobs that we're able to help our people navigate into. And just to be clear, we are very up front with our people. People like, get me a job, get me a job. We're very upfront with them and say, we can't get you a job. We can help you get you a job. We don't get anybody jobs. Our consumers get themselves jobs. We're there to help and build value and work within whether it be any of the networks that we develop with stakeholders or using the existing public systems or education, whatever the case may be. It's consumer driven, it's consumer informed, and it's consumer driven. We make that clear that really we're just a partner in this, and it's up to the consumer to be able to make the final decision. One of the things that I think is very successful is that there's more choice than ever before. I think our consumers were faced with maybe one opportunity, and if they didn't take it, it was like, all right, let's start all over again. Or, you know, now let's go on another six month search. Now our consumers are being presented with multiple offers, multiple opportunities. That's a really good sign. Another really good sign is the nature of the jobs that they're getting. We're now going past just the entry level job or the base job, and we're into more management. Some of our placements are six figure placements. These are consumers that many of them have been with us for a while, but some are fairly new. So like before, this is where I think our ad campaign is really helped us because consumers who maybe hadn't approach MCB before are now approaching MCB. So we're doing our best to reduce the stigma of what it means to join MCB. So many people before who were low vision, high, partial, legally blind...   Carol: Yes...   David: ...didn't really feel that they were. Well, I can see I'm not really blind. Well, if you're legally blind, then you're entitled to the services. And so people with existing track records of employment that they've been in the workforce for 20 years and now they've lost their vision. Before, many of them were just leaving. And then we would find out five years later, well, I left because I was depressed or I left because I couldn't do the job. Now we get to them more quickly and actually work with them and the employer to let them know, Hey, we're there for you. We're there to provide these reasonable accommodations. We're there to emphasize the great skills that you have. So many of these things can be remediated now with technology. So we're seeing six figure placements. We're seeing management level placements. These are all very encouraging signs. But again, they didn't just happen overnight. It's the culmination of all of these programs working together. And most importantly, let me just give a great shout out to our counselors, our VR counselors develop these relationships and work with these consumers. And really, they're part of the secret sauce here, sitting at their kitchen table with them and their families and letting them know that we're going to be there with them. I think that's irreplaceable. And you can create whatever program you want and fund it however you want. At the end of the day, that needs to happen. Without that, I don't think we'd be having the success that we're having.   Carol: I love that. I know your PSA campaign was really clever because I had looked at the ads. Very cool. Are you still continuing to do that? Is that still going on?   David: Yeah. So we're looking at another reallotment project to fund another ad buy. We're going to have a dialogue with RSA about it. I think we can show that we got results from it and if we can, I'm hoping that they'll say that that's a good use of the money. You know, right now we've gone through some change. We've had a significant aging of our MCB workforce. We've had retirements of people that have been at the agency for 40 years, 38 years, 39 years. So I think COVID really helped in a way where it gave people a pause to be able to adjust. And that's not only our consumers and our counselors, but really like the whole workforce. And as a result, many people are saying, you know what, it's now time I've put my time in and it's time to give it up to the next generation, which is good. But it's a challenge because now we spent a significant amount of time trying to backfill these positions and like something with orientation and mobility. I think one of our O & M people we got from California, another one from Michigan. So hunting around trying to find talent can be challenging and we're certainly not trying to raid other agencies or muscle other competition out because Massachusetts is the state where the cost of living is quite high. We want to make sure if we're getting people here, that they're positioned for long term success. So we've definitely been trying to navigate some of that, as I think many of my colleagues can probably resonate with on at their state level.   Carol: Oh yeah, that is the hot topic of the day. The mass retirement and kind of exodus of people out of VR. I know when I was at Minnesota, this is, you know, ten years ago I walked in the door in HR hands me a list saying I think it was over 50% of the staff were eligible to retire in the next three years. I just went, what? And they did, you know, people did because people have been with the agency. They all started together. They'd been there 30, 40 years together. And they all went. And then that just got exacerbated by the pandemic. People going out the door for sure. If people are wanting to find your PSA information, is that also on your website still?   David: It sure is. And it's on our YouTube channel as well. When I came to MCB, we had no social media. Now we've got Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and our own YouTube channel and all of these avenues that we've gotten such great input from our consumers and their families because, yeah, it's about serving the consumer, but it's also about serving their families because that's oftentimes the people that are working with the consumers just as much, if not more than our counselors. So it's about empowering the whole consumer. And what I mean, the whole consumer, I mean, it's their extended family. It's their spouse or their son or their daughter or their niece or their nephew. They're aunt, their uncle or their friend or neighbor. It takes a village. And we've had good success with that approach.   Carol: Great. It absolutely does take a village. Can you give that website address one more time?   David: Yeah, sure. It's. Mass.gov/MCB. So, its Mass dot gov. Forward slash m c b.   Carol: Excellent! Yeah. Because I know you have a lot of really good stuff out on the website, so I know you are always thinking you don't ever stop. You're on to the next thing. So what's up on deck next for MCB?   David: Yeah, I think we just need to continue to now emerge from the pandemic and continue to assimilate so many new staff that we've got. I mean, I think of our 130 staff, about 40 of them are new within the past couple of years. So there's a big assimilation going on, number one, but really making sure that our community feels safe to get back out there and independent and self determined, ready to go. That's job one.  Is getting that adjustment to blindness, that acceptance of blindness, continuing to find new consumers to be able to provide the services to. Then once we do that, then at the tried and true, it's wash, rinse, repeat on what our counselors and what VR has established so well. It's mentoring and then interning and then interviewing and then getting a job and then staying upwardly mobile in that job and trying to move up into management or entrepreneurial. And one of the new things we're working on that we piloted last year successfully with National Industries for the Blind is this entrepreneurial program. We really believe that that is the future for many of our consumers that are interested in a small business opportunity, and that is establishing an e-commerce presence online where you own your own thing and you're really an entrepreneur at that point, selling products and services online through their accessible platform. For years, we tried to get our consumers interested in selling on Amazon or eBay or these other e commerce platforms. But the platform itself, the app, the technology itself was not accessible to screen readers working with the national industries of the blind and tremendous credit to them for investing a significant amount of their time and resources into making an e commerce platform that is accessible for screen reader technology. This is a huge opportunity for people with blindness who are interested in being their own business owner online in the e commerce space. Like I said, we piloted last year. We proved the proof of concept. We have another class now going in. I would encourage anybody who thinks they have a consumer interested in this space to contact national industries of the Blind. Mention the pilot with Massachusetts that we've done. They'll know what you're talking about and get your consumers enrolled because this really is the future and it's a great opportunity.   Carol: Yeah, I thought that was a super smart idea when I was reading because that was one of your re allotment projects was to study it and to look at it and to figure that out so that can actually be a viable option for your customers.   David: That's right. We didn't just rush in horns first. We studied it, we spent time, looked around, conferred with NIB, and NIB has done a great job. Like I said, they've really made a major investment here and using their Ability One shops that they've had, they have such a tremendous network of providers and vendors that many of the products, I think it's about half of the products are actually made by blind people also. So it's almost like a double win when you really get down to it. To be able to sell these products online. We're very optimistic about it. Good things start humbly and that's where we started. We started with the first class. I think we started with 12 people. Then it went to 6 because some people didn't have the screen reader skills necessary that you would need. Then from the 6,, 3 of them dropped out because they didn't want to own the lemonade stand. They just wanted to work the lemonade stand right there from the 3. It went to 2 and then 1 ended up actually seeing it all the way through and becoming profitable. So we've proved the proof of concept. We just now need more consumers. So if you've got consumers in your area, let's get them going.   Carol: Well, it always starts with 1. You need one, you know, and then there's 2 and then there's 3 and it keeps moving up. That's great. At least it gives another opportunity. And it really is the gift that keeps on giving. You know, when you look at using those reeallotment dollars, it doesn't just benefit you. In Massachusetts, the work that you're doing can benefit the whole country.   David: Yeah, I really think that, Carol. And if people again go to Mass.gov/MCB, look at the, again now, I think it's either up to 30 or 32 different real allotment projects that we've done. There's quite a bit of information in there from studies to these campaigns to the Quest for Independence guide that we did, all of these different things. they're there for everybody else to be able to use. If we've had success, you can just kind of repurpose it and have success in your area with it.   Carol: Well, and your quest to  independence. Guide You've been being very modest about it, but that is hilarious because it's a comic book and you're the superhero. In it. It is the coolest thing. I thought that was the most clever thing I had seen in that Pre-ETS space.   David: Well, thanks, Carol. If it leads to one more employment, then we'll be pleased.   Carol: Yeah, that's cool. So, David, I know there's a lot of new directors across the country like you were a few years ago. What kind of advice would you give them as they're wrestling with ways to effectively spend their funds?   David: Yeah, it would really be, Don't just settle for what has been done previously. I've found the people at RSA to be very supportive, to be willing to listen, and just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done. Find out what your consumers need and then figure out how to backtrack that to these federal dollars to be able to get them the resources that they need to be successful, whether it's a small business enterprise or Randolph Shepherd or they want to go to kind of a more traditional route of getting employed, whatever the case may be. There's a program that can be crafted to individualize everybody so that they feel like the job they're getting is the job for them, because that's what we want you to spend so much time getting somebody in the workforce. We want to make sure these people are staying in the workforce, staying gainfully employed, because again, we really believe that independence and self determination, that's the thing that you've got to get through so that people can long term stay viable on their own.   Carol: Well, well said. Thanks so much for being on the show today. I've been a big fan of yours for a long time and I just really wanted to get your message out to our listeners and have folks look at your website and the very cool things you can do. I know there's a synopsis of all of your projects so people can get a really good sense of what you did and what you learned. I think it was brilliant, so I wish you the very best of luck in 2023 and thanks for joining me today.   David: Carol, Thanks so much. You do such a great job. I appreciate you. Thanks for everybody for listening. And please contact us if we could be a support in any way.   Carol: Thank you.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

He's here, he's there; Dr. Hillman brings drug safety everywhere! So given the rules and regulations he needs to follow, the title “vigilante” could be nothing but ironic.We chart David's progress through choosing pharmacology as a subject to study, and settling on pharmacovigilance as a career to pursue. Listen: The Bollywood beats come courtesy of Cambridge-based artist Anish Kumar whose music you can also find on Bandcamp: anishkumarmusic.bandcamp.com, YouTube, Instagram and Twitter.Watch:Subscribe to our YouTube channel now for all future recordings. Episode transcript[Background intro music playing is "Nazia" by Anish Kumar]Parmvir: Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of the 2Scientists podcast, where inspiring scientists share their work with you, wherever you like to listen. Today we come to you from a rather unique spot, rather than a cafe or bar we are camped out in Kensington Gardens in London, because it's a glorious day and our podcasting equipment allows us to do that. But enough about me and us, we are here today, of course I am your host Parmvir Bahia here and we're here with David Basanta, but we also have with us another David who is very special to me, he is an old friend of mine from my PhD program, and we shared much time and much swearing over experiments together at University college London. How are you David Hillman? David: I'm doing well. Thank you. It's, as you say, it's a, it's a lovely day and, it's nice to be back with old friends. Parmvir: Yes, yes. Of course everything rotates background to COVID and whereas we would normally see each other once a year. It's been three, four, possibly? David: Three, I think that's yeah.Parmvir: Miserable. David: Yeah. Sad times we shall have to make up for it. Parmvir: We will, we will. There's a bottle of Cava with our name on it. Once we've done with this. David: And onion rings. Parmvir: And onion rings. Yes. Fancy Marks and Spencer's one's though. So let's start at the beginning. I'm not talking about like, where were you born kind of thing. Although you can mention Kidderminster if you'd like. So as I understand it, we had a relatively similar track as undergraduates. So you did a bachelor's in pharmacology, correct? David: Yeah, that's right. Parmvir: So tell us why, why pharmacology? David: So this is gonna age me, age us.So I, for my A levels, so for my senior school exams, I, studied chemistry, biology, and maths, and I wanted to study something at university that combined chemistry and biology. And so this is the bit that will age us. So back in the day, if you remember, you would go to the, career advice department who were trying to help people to steer people towards what options they might want to pick at university.And they had this huge telephone directory effectively, which, mapped together people's different, combinations of A level courses and then gave you a list of options that you could, study at university. So I was sat in this little tiny room with this career advisor person, and they were basically running through this list of different courses.And when they came to pharmacology, they'd already mentioned pharmacy, which, you know, most people know what it is, but then they said pharmacology and I stopped them and said, well, what's, what's the difference? And they actually gave a pretty good summary. They said, it's more the biology of medicine. It's more the, the research and development of new medicines. They said it's potentially a controversial topic because it's the pharmaceutical industry is itself sometimes controversial and there's other aspects to the industry, which are, challenging sometimes. But yeah, that's how it started. So I picked a few different pharmacology courses, one of which was King's College London. I was always very practical, so I liked the idea of doing a year in industry at some point. So I chose a sandwich course like you and yeah, so that took me to KCL all that time ago. Parmvir: Mm. So I didn't realize how similar our tracks had been, because I also did biology, chemistry and maths, and I wanted to do something with the chemistry and the biology.And I got put in that direction by David: did you pick it out of the phone book as well? Parmvir: I did. What was it called? There was a name for it. David: It was pretty like a UCAS publication. Parmvir: Yes. It was just, it was enormous. David: Yeah. Parmvir: But yeah, in any case, I also, I did a sandwich year and I got to go and hang out in Germany for a year, which was fun.But yeah. So obviously after that you came to do a PhD at UCL where we were, well, I was a year ahead of you, I think. David: Yeah. You were. Parmvir: Why? Why did you do a PhD? David: So well for the reasons that I guess a lot of people do them, which is that I wasn't sure what to do next [both laugh] and a PhD seemed like a good way to string it out for another few years before I figured that out.But the reason I landed on UCL was that when I did go and do my year in industry, which like you was for a large pharma company, I worked in a lab looking at some non-clinical safety models. And we were using electrophysiology techniques at the time that was sharp electrode electrophysiology.Parmvir: You're gonna have to explain what electrophysiology means. David: Oh, don't make me do that. It's been 20 years [Parmvir laughs]. Oh, it's basically where you take either isolated cells or tissues and you put tiny, tiny electrodes into them and measure the changing currents across cell membranes. And as you put different drugs on, you can look at different effects of those drugs how they affect the electrical signals that you can measure.And really it's ions moving back and forward across membranes by little things called ion channels. So yeah, so I'd done sharp electrode electrophysiology there. I went back to university to finish my last year, and then the question came up about what to pick for a PhD. And I thought, well, although I hadn't enjoyed electrophysiology, it's something that I had started to, I guess, gain an interest in. Plus I had some skills that in that area. So, yeah, so I found a course, rather a PhD studentship at UCL, which seemed to fit the bill. It was looking at using a slightly different electrophysiology technique, so patch, clamping in a different area, but I thought it was something that I could use what I'd learnt in my year in industry Parmvir: I gave you some of these questions beforehand. David: Yes, because I'm incapable of spontaneous reaction to questions [Parmvir laughs]. Parmvir: Actually, I loved it so much that I have to read out your description of what your memory is like. David: I was quite proud of that. I coined that yesterday. I used to think of my memory as a lobster pot. Parmvir: All right. So you said I've just come up with a good analogy for my recall memory. It's like a reference library. You have to put in a request and then go away for a bit. When you come back, I'll have retrieved something from the vaults. Hopefully. David: Yeah, exactly. Parmvir: But aside from that I wanted to say this might be something of a loaded question, but what did you think of your PhD experience?David: You know, I really, I look back on those years with fond memory. Now it's partly because looking back, you edit out all of the stress and anxiety associated with doing a research project like that. I remember at the time when I first started UCL ran some induction courses where they pulled together PhD students and other postgraduate students from all sorts of backgrounds and John Foreman who you'll remember who was the Dean of students at the time, he gave a little introduction to UCL, but also gave some interesting advice let's say and pointers.And one of the things he pointed out in that session was the high degree of mental illness that is encountered by students in general taking these types of courses because they are stressful. And you often feel like you are kind of on your own. Driving your own research project forward. Sometimes through difficult times. So I do remember that in particular, but you know, what I remember mostly is just how impressed I was with all of the people that surrounded me because our department was not particularly flashy in its kind of presentation, but there were some seriously impressive people there.So I always like to think of our lab in the sense of, you know, it was run by effectively by Dennis and, and Guy when we got there. But before then it had been run by Don and before then it had been run by Bernard Katz who was a Nobel laureate. So it felt like we were the either grandchildren or great grandchildren of a Nobel Laureate and the whole department was a bit like that. It had a lot of very understated people who were world experts in their, in their field. And I always felt like the dumbest person in the department. But that didn't bother me too much because you know, being surrounded by all this greatness and even just, you know, the little glimpses of things you would see at the kind of coffee breaks and in the corridors, some of those memories still live with me, you know. Bearing in mind, this was back in what, between 2001 and 2005.So very, very early days of smartphones, things like trios and things like that, which seem antiquated now. But I remember coming across two old professors, so probably in their seventies or eighties comparing their smartphones and that like little microcosm, are the things that I loved about the department.Parmvir: Actually, I mean, I think you're, you're definitely selling yourself short. Like nobody would say that you weren't smart enough to be there. And I think one of the things that kind of ties into the, the mental health aspect is that we all felt that way. David: Yeah. Parmvir: Except we didn't express it to anyone else. It's, it's utterly ridiculous. How can we all be the least smart person in the room that's just not possible. David: Yeah. Parmvir: And after that, we all got our PhDs anyway, so, you know yeah. David: I certainly have no regrets about it. And I look back on those times with, with very fond memories, for sure. Parmvir: Yeah. Just talk briefly about what you did for your project and what the difficulties were.David: So the lab that I joined, so which, which you were a part of as well, their specialty was calcium activated potassium channels. And over time, the lab had looked at these ion channels in various different settings. The project that I was given was looking at these channels in vascular endothelial cells, which was a cell type that no one in the lab had ever studied before.Parmvir: Mm. David: So one of the biggest challenges that we were hit with straight away was that no one in the lab could really help that much with firsthand experience of how to obtain these cells, how to isolate them, how to culture them, how to grow them and really how to manage those cell types. So you might well remember that, the first, probably nine months of my PhD was just spent trying to culture these cells. Parmvir: Mm-hmm David: and it started with you know, available tissue from rats and other small mammals.But then eventually we were not having success with culturing cells from those models. So I switched onto pigs and, you know, I'd done a bit of reading that, you know, these vessels, because they were much larger the blood vessels, it was easier effectively to culture cells from, so I looked in the phone book and I found the address of an abattoir out in the middle of Essex.And there began my weekly trip for getting on for two and a half years to the deepest, darkest corners of Essex to go and retrieve pig, coronary artery cells once a week. Parmvir: Yeah. And essentially you suffered because these things were so flat. [David laughs] And when you're trying to, so you, for anyone who's listening, you have to picture trying to get a very, very fine tube onto something that is incredibly flat, and essentially you need this thing to form a vacuum seal and that just wasn't gonna happen. David: No, so, you know, vascular endothelial cells, they're the cells that line blood vessels, which is why they're, they're very flat. They're like tiles almost on the inside of veins and arteries.And you know, with other cells in the lab that were being looked at like the ones that you were looking at, like DRGs and like neurons and things like that, you know, you were basically putting the, the electrode down onto like a ball. Parmvir: Yeah. David: So the gap between the bottom of the dish and the top of the cell was who knows, 10, 20 microns, something like that. The cells that we were looking at, they flattened themselves out so much, they were about one micron, I think we estimated and therefore the tiniest vibration in the room would destroy the cell. And yeah, so the first stage was trying to culture, the damn things, and that was extremely challenging. It took a long time, but nine months of the way through managed it, and then began the whole pain of trying to get electrical recordings from them, which turned out to be as difficult. Parmvir: Yeah. So one of the things, I don't know if we ever talked about this, but what did you aspire to do after you'd done your PhD originally?Like, did you have any kind of idea? David: I mean, I think I was always headed into the pharmaceutical industry, which is where I landed up. In my undergrad degree in, I think my either first or second year, I did a very nice course, which was a kind of practical introduction to the pharmaceutical industry and from very top level, how drugs are developed and how pharma companies are organized internally and how the research progresses. And that, I'd always found that interesting. I mean, I find the entire pharmaceutical industry absolutely fascinating. And still do to this day. It's such an amazingly complex industry. And so, yeah, so I think I'd always been heading in that direction. Sure enough, the PhD certainly made me decide I was done with bench science [Parmvir laughs]. So, you know, by the time you've spent three plus years plodding along with these experiments that have a success rate of one in 50 sometimes. Parmvir: Yeah. David: You know, days and weeks without getting any data, and towards the end, still being in the lab at three o'clock in the morning, trying to get something to work and breaking more and more glassware as time goes on [Parmvir laughs]Yeah, I decided I was done with bench science, although I loved being in the labs, I loved playing in the labs. But I was never that into the kind of reading of the scientific papers and that sort of thing. Once it came down to maths and things like that, I wasn't so engaged. I needed to see practical things. Parmvir: Yeah. I feel like at some point we realized we were both some kind of engineer at heart rather than David: Yeah. Maybe Parmvir: scientist, David: maybe. Parmvir: It's more like, how does this work rather than trying to answer a bigger scientific question. David: Yeah. Parmvir: But obviously you were, you were a little bit scarred by your experience there, and you ended up going off in, I guess, a very different track from what the standard academic education leads you towards. So I think at this point this might be a good place to put your disclaimer in. David: Yes. So I work in the pharmaceutical industry and over time I've worked for, and with a variety of different companies.Any of the content that I describe today are my opinions and my opinions alone, and often they're really based off things which are in the public domain. In fact it's all based off things that were in the public domain and also some of the education that I've received, because actually, even after I finished my PhD, I then years later went on to study a, another academic course specifically in pharmacovigilance and pharmacoepidemiology.Parmvir: Oh, where did you do that? David: London school of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Parmvir: Oh. David: And it's interesting because it's a short course and I felt was a very valuable course. It's a course where regulatory authorities also send their people to learn too. Parmvir: So there's a lot of questions I can ask next.But one of the things that your job description throws up is this word "pharmacovigilance". What does that mean? David: Okay. So somewhere because I'm not gonna do it justice from memory, I'm going to read out the WHO definition of pharmacovigilance. It doesn't roll off the tongue, unfortunately, which is why it's never quite there in my head.So per the WHO: pharmacovigilance is the science and activities relating to the detection, assessment, understanding and prevention of adverse effects, or any other medicine, or vaccine-related problem. So essentially it is the process and the science relating to drug side effects. Now as you'll remember from pharmacology days, very early on, you're taught that all pharmacologically active substances, if it applies to the human body have side effects. The same side effects are not encountered by every person.And you know, some of the side effects might have obvious clinical manifestations. Some might not, you might get side effects, never know you've had them. And of course they vary massively in severity. So when you are looking at a medicine, particularly one that you're introducing to kind of general use in humans, you have a trade-off to make because you have an expected therapeutic benefit, but you also have to be mindful of potential side effects, particularly serious side effects and how much tolerance you have for those versus the good that the drug is supposed to do.And achieving that balance is one of the big challenges that's faced in drug development.Parmvir: So what you do really, it kind of comes at the end of the whole process of clinical trials and so on for given products, right? David: It actually starts right at the beginning of clinical development.So. Parmvir: Oh, hang on, I have to ask David's question: does that make you a Pharmacovigilante? David: [David and Parmvir laugh] I've often wondered the same thing myself. But yeah, so pharmacovigilance takes off really where toxicology leaves. So before you can put a drug into clinical development, by which I mean development in humans, drugs first have to go through preclinical development and that's where all the various toxicology studies are run.Parmvir: Can you quickly define toxicology for us? David: Sure. It is really focusing on the well, the potentially toxic side of medicines. So before you put a drug anywhere near a human, you want to be absolutely certain that it doesn't cause various catastrophic side effects in humans.So, for example, you need to be confident that it doesn't cause cancer. You need to be confident that it's not gonna cause a heart attack immediately, or cause a stroke immediately or things like that. So as per regulations in pretty much every country in the world, before you put a drug anywhere near a human in a clinical trial, it has to go through a standard set of tests.And there's various ways to achieve that. You know, sometimes those are tests using computer simulated models. Sometimes they are using individual cells or cultured cells or tissues. And sometimes as is well known in the industry they're using animal models and these are legally required tests.So every drug that goes through the process has to go through these. So that's done before it gets to clinical development. And then you start with phase one clinical trials which are studies on, usually on healthy volunteers and they're very small trials. They involve perhaps a few tens of patients. And the only purpose of those trials is to look at the safety and tolerability of the drug. So this is the first time you're putting the drug into humans. There is a bit of an exception to that. So although these are usually conducted on healthy volunteers, for some drugs, including, for example oncology drugs. Those drugs are usually along the more kind of toxic end of agents, so it's not ethical to put those into healthy volunteers. So sometimes those studies are conducted in a patient population. So once a drug moves into human studies into phase one, from that point, really for the rest of the lifetime of that drug as a human medicine pharmacovigilance is involved. So all the way through the phase one, two and three studies and then once the drug goes onto the market, pharmacovigilance continues.So the companies or the pharmaceutical or biotech companies that are developing these assets have a legal requirement to collect and analyze this data on an ongoing basis pretty much forever. Until that drug is eventually, perhaps if it's lucky enough to get to the market, until it's withdrawn from the market, perhaps many decades later.Parmvir: Very good. And I think that there are probably some very topical things that have come up recently as a result of COVID 19, which is important to consider when we're talking about these things, in that we are not just relying on these clinical trials that have gone out to ensure that these things are safe, but once they're out there that you have to continue to get feedback from people who are taking these to ensure that they continue to be safe in the long term, right?David: That's true. So, you know, ordinarily in clinical development, once you get through phase 1, 2, 3, and if you are lucky enough to have a drug, which is sufficiently efficacious, tolerable to go to market, then yes, you know, the drug's released to market and you continue to monitor for this stuff.Vaccines are in a particularly special category because they are drugs that are given to healthy people. Mm yes. And so therefore the benefit risk balance is more complicated in some ways, because , you know, it's, it's hard to consider the benefit to the individual of taking a product when they don't yet have that disease.So now there are other drugs that are in a similar category, other drugs that are given to healthy people. This is where I can ask you some questions. So what, what do you think those other drugs include? Parmvir: Oh, goodness. Um, I'm trying to think off the top of my head, what they might be. David: Yeah. It's very unfair. Parmvir: All I can think of at the moment are the other vaccines. David: Okay. So, Parmvir: but there are lots of prophylactic things. Yeah. Yeah. I can't think of anything David: Contraceptives. Parmvir: The obvious prophylactic. Yes. David: Drugs used for travel. So things like anti-malaria tablets. Parmvir: Oh yeah. David: Drugs used for things like smoking cessation Parmvir: mm-hmmDavid: stuff like that.So again, these are all drugs that are generally given to healthy people. So, you know, and this is where benefit risk balance comes into sharp focus, because if you have a drug that has been developed to treat a very hard to treat cancer, let's say, then when you consider benefit risk balance you know, if these patients are effectively going to die without a treatment, and this is the only treatment available, you might be able to accept that a drug has a one in a hundred chance of causing a fatal stroke. Particularly if that drug is given in hospital and these things can be, can be managed. If however, you are developing a cough medicine, then your tolerance for any type of dangerous side effects is basically zero, and of course, many drugs elsewhere on that scale. So yeah, benefit risk balance is a key part of what has to be looked at during drug development. And yeah, as we say, vaccines are particularly challenging. Often these days when a new drug is developed the clinical development and the studies don't stop necessarily when the drug is released for marketing. So, often as a condition of the marketing authorizations that are granted for these drugs, there have to be continuing studies to look at safety. These are called post-authorization safety studies. And so there's ongoing collection of data in a rigorous way to keep monitoring for various things. Either new things that we didn't know about the drug before, because of course when you're in clinical development, your number of patients is normally quite small Parmvir: mm-hmm David: so you're less likely to spot very rare side effects. You wouldn't usually detect a one in 50,000 probability side effect in a clinical trial cohort. Parmvir: Yeah. David: But sometimes these post authorization safety studies allow you to pick up more of that and enable you to characterize some of the side effects that you do know about more in detail.Parmvir: Yeah. So David B here asks essentially how long do these things go on after the drug's been on the market? For example, is there still pharmacovigilance for aspirin? David: Yes. Every single drug that has a marketing authorization out there it is the law in pretty much every country in the world that all safety data that becomes available to the marketing authorization holders, that's the company that owns the rights to the drug and effectively sells the drug, they're required by law to collect process, analyze and report this data. Now as drugs age, the natural reporting rate for some of these drugs drops so the probability of a physician or a pharmacist or a nurse, or even a patient reporting a side effect probably drops over time because theses are not new medicines anymore, but even so, any data that is collected has to go through that process, which is the pharmacovigilance that we were referring to earlier. In addition to that, all companies with marketing authorizations have to look at scientific and medical literature. It all has to be reviewed, so in European requirements, including the UK on a weekly basis, companies have to trawl some of the big literature databases, such as PubMed and M base, they have to trawl that information for any articles on their drugs. And any indication of side effects or other similar challenges. Parmvir: So how is this information collected and processed? Cause you've said obviously doctors, nurses, patients, they will all report certain things. Mm-hmm how do you kind of get them to a central place and cataloged and how do you decide what are actual side effects versus David: So if we think about the front end of the process, most pharma companies out there will have medical information help lines. So these are help lines that are set out there so that healthcare professionals. So that's the physicians, the, the pharmacists, the nurses and others but also consumers can contact the company for more information about the medicine and also potentially report adverse events, side effects. In parallel to that the same thing's going on with the regulators. So in the UK, for example, we have the yellow card scheme, which these days is a web portal system where anyone can go in and report side effects of medicines they're taking. In the us, you have the MedWatch scheme, which is very similar. Most companies around the world have similar things. Plus you've also got ongoing clinical trials, clinical studies, so data is coming in that way too. We've got data coming in from literature that I've mentioned. The regulators, when they receive stuff directly, they often pass that information over to the pharma company.So essentially all this information is coming towards the pharma company. It all gets directed to a pharmacovigilance department. And then we go through the process of processing that data. And so that data comes in from everywhere around the world where the drug is available for patients to take both in clinical trials and on the market.So the process basically consists of firstly translating the data, if it needs to be translated that gets captured into a safety database and there are various commercial safe databases out there. This is where companies collate all the information received on their drugs. And it goes through a process whereby data is kind of standardized it's put into standard terminology in a way that is compatible with the regulatory requirements. A narrative is constructed. So we write a story of what's happened to the patient from beginning to end. We look at various things like if the information is available to us, you know, what other medications were the patients taking? What's their medical history? What was the sequence of events? So what was the time to onset if possible, if we have that information between the patient taking the drug and them reporting the side effect, what the clinical course of the side effect was, so did the patient recover? Was any adjustment made to the the, the dosing or any treatments given? And so all that gets written up, we then decide what other information do we need to know?And then there's a feedback loop to go and ask the reporter if they'll provide additional information. Usually we ask for more information on more serious adverse events. We don't wanna overburden the reporters. Now reporters in clinical trials, so physicians involved in those, they're legally obliged to help with that process. Spontaneous reporters that we refer to, which is just where any healthcare professional or consumer contacts, the company, that's a voluntary reporting system, so we can ask them for additional information, they don't have to provide it, but we have to ask the questions anyway. So the information gets pulled together. It then goes, usually goes through a medical review, so we have kind of scientists pulling the data together. And then we have physicians reviewing the case, making sure it makes medical sense. And then depending on the seriousness of the case and other attributes, that case might have to be reported out to regulators worldwide.And a lot of the reports which are serious, have to be reported out within 15 days of what we call day zero, which is the first day anyone in the company became aware of the report. Parmvir: Mm-hmm. David: But to give you an idea, the large pharma companies are dealing with potentially tens of thousands of reports a week that are coming in on all of their products. So these are vast systems that are set up and they have to be set up to be able to meet all of the regulatory requirements in terms of timelines, for reporting. So the data's coming in, the expedited reports are going out in the format that the regulators require. We also have to pull together what we call aggregate reports. So these aggregated analyses of data over time for newer drugs, for example, those are submitted in Europe every six months. And then over time as the drug gets older, the gap between reports gets longer. And then also we're doing something, what we call signal section, which is where we are analyzing the data. And we're looking for trends in the data. Where we think we've got patterns we're starting to then look into researching those patterns a little bit more, you know, if we start to see, for example that I don't know that we are getting what appears to be a disproportionate number of nose bleeds, let's say, in a patient cohort, we would, you know, do background research on, well, you know, is there a plausible biological mechanism that we know about through the development of the drug? Was there stuff seen in the animal studies or even the human studies that might indicate that there's a, there's a root cause here.We'll look into confounding effects. Are all these patients on other drugs, which actually are likely causing that? And yeah, so kind of an appraisal is done: what's going on? Is it likely to be caused by something else? And if not, you know, we, keep on looking and those conversations then have to be shared with the regulatory authorities.And over time, what you'll see is the labeling of the product, the professional labeling which in Europe, including the UK, is the SMPC, the summary of product characteristics, which is a bit like the instruction manual for the product, which is available to healthcare professionals and the simplified version of that PIL those little leaflets you find inside of packs, those eventually get revised on an ongoing basis to accommodate the new knowledge that we are gaining on the side effect profile of the drug. So this is an ongoing process and it happens throughout the entire lifetime of the, of the drug. Parmvir: But yeah, so here's a subject that no one's talked about for a little while. COVID 19 David: mm-hmm Parmvir: [laughs] Obviously I know there's probably a collective groan from people listening right now, but it seems like a relevant subject, given the conversations around safety that people are having with regard to the vaccine. So do you know if there's been like a major uptick in these reports by individuals, of side effects from the vaccines, or do you take account of the fact that so many billions of people essentially at this point have received at least one shot of the vaccine versus how many reports you get coming in?David: Yeah. So this is one of the big challenges, and one of the things I should have said about drugs like vaccines is because they're given to such vast numbers of people, it becomes a particular challenge to differentiate between things which are being caused potentially by the vaccine and other things, which unfortunately are just bad luck of being a human being.And by that, I mean, so years ago when I was doing one of the academic courses we were being taught about the vast amounts of research that had to be done in terms of epidemiology before the HPV vaccines were released. So these vaccines were being released for use in teenage girls, and at the time it was felt that there was perhaps an insufficient understanding of the general health of that population, including things like what is the probability of a freak occurrence that a teenage girl is going to have a stroke or something like that? Things which we think of as of course, they're exceptionally rare, but they do happen.Parmvir: Mm-hmm David: and I'm talking about in untreated populations. Parmvir: Yep. David: But of course, you know, some of these patients are also on birth control and things like that, that also have other risk factors associated with them so my understanding is before the HPV vaccines were released, a huge amount of epidemiology research was done so that when the new vaccines were released, we knew that we would expect, and I'm just gonna make up a number here that, you know, one in 500,000 teenage girls would have, I don't know, some kind of fatal event which would just naturally occur, you know, even without them having the vaccine. And so that's similar for other vaccine rollouts as well. There has to be a good understanding of the background events of other things that, people will have happen to them, which have nothing to do with the medicine that you are giving.So, you know, that data is kept available and kept an eye on by the regulatory authorities and also the pharma companies. We don't have background rates for everything, so being prepared for what might come and then, you know, there perhaps isn't so much panic when the first case comes in of a patient that has one of these catastrophic events but if you start to see more than that, that's when you start to perhaps get more interested in: is this really being caused by the vaccine or the drug of interest. So, yeah, a lot of upfront work has to be done before you even put the drug out there. I mean, in terms of the COVID vaccines and the treatments, because of the high degree of public interest and scrutiny a lot of these drugs when they were first given and the vaccines were first given, so adverse events, side effects were tracked through post-authorization safety studies. So actually a lot of people, when they got their first doses, consented to have maybe a follow up call from an investigator who would ask them about various side effects that happened. So in addition to all of the natural spontaneous reporting that was coming in, there were very large cohorts of past study data coming in which is a robust way to look at these things. I know as well, there were legitimate questions about, you know, the COVID vaccines in particular were produced fairly quickly compared to the usual 10 to 15 years in development of, of a product. But you know, there are various reasons for this. So vaccines are perhaps one of the medicines where it's more possible to template out the product and therefore switch out components. But they still have a product which is similar to other products that have previously been used. But also, the COVID era in terms of vaccine development and treatment development was, in my opinion at least a completely unique event in terms of drug development so far. If you think of drug development as a kind of universe, or I'm gonna use some wonky analogies here, but let's say as galaxies, which have solar systems within them that have planets within them.So if you think of the galaxy of drug development you have all of these different stakeholders involved. You have the pharmaceutical companies and biotech companies and the service companies that support them, that's one area. You have the regulatory authorities but you have many other stakeholders.You have patients, of course they're the most important. For chronic diseases you might have patient advocacy groups. But also, you know, you guys are part of this universe as well, because you are the ones doing basic research, which is the foundation on which all, you know, all of this is, is ultimately built. So you have universities and other research organizations. You have the funding bodies that sit behind those that decide where the research money goes. And then out the other end of the process you have ethics committees that are involved in approving clinical trials. You have payers. So these are the organizations that ultimately pay for medicinal products in the UK, for example, that's the NHS. Parmvir: Yep. David: In the US, that would be insurance companies. Parmvir: Yeah. David: You have many other stakeholders. So you have obviously healthcare professionals at the end of the day, new drugs have to be woven into the fabric of medicine. And so you have to bring HCPs along with you. There are the learning bodies as well in relation to HCPs, the kind of professional bodies.So that's really at a kind of galaxy level, these are all the different solar systems. And then within them, if you look at the pharmaceutical biotechnology and service provider solar system, within those you have an incredibly complicated set of different skills departments, functions, you have the functions that are doing discovery.So these are the early days of, development where, you know, biologists and chemists are working out, you know, what are the new therapeutic targets we can look at? Then you have the clinical development division. You have the patent divisions, you have the regulatory affairs functions. You have the pharmacovigilance functions. You have the medical affairs functions, you have the medical information functions [Parmvir cackles]. There are, and I'm going to miss out many, many. You have the, the bio stats folks, you have the medical writers. And then of course you have the manufacturing, which is in itself a completely different, you know, specialized world.So yeah, you're dealing with a very complicated process with lots of things which are interlinked. But for me, if you think of all these things, like if you use layout or different compass, let's say, and I'm talking about the compass you use to check direction, not the ones you used to draw circles [Parmvir laughs] and if you scatter them all out they'll all be pointing at different directions. You know, all of these different entities have their own priorities. Because of course the industry as a whole is developing many different medicinal products for different reasons. I think when COVID came along, it was like drawing a magnet across the top of all those compasses and it got all the needles to point in the same direction.So you had governments who had a clear incentive to try and support the development of treatments. So you had governments putting up money, which was perhaps slightly unusual. They were putting money into basic research, such as the type of stuff that you guys do. They were putting money into diagnostics, which are critical for things like COVID.They were putting money into the development of vaccines and into treatments. And then of course, you know, you have the pharma companies where there was a scramble to try and develop something, to help humanity in its hour of need. You had the regulators with a lot of focus on them you know, and everyone watching their, every move and trying to ensure that you know, as many processes that often might take months, or perhaps even years were made as efficient as possible.Parmvir: Mm-hmm David: And it was a unique point in time because everyone was lined up with the same objective. So it meant, for example, that, you know, parts of the industry, which are normally a nine to five job, became a 24/7 job. Parmvir: Yeah. David: For a short period of time.And there was a huge amount of collaboration, which happened between the different stakeholder groups, you know regulatory authorities offered perhaps free scientific advice to companies that were developing this stuff. They met very regularly with companies that were in development. They gave a lot of advice as to what their expectations were when the data was received by them. They shortened some administrative pathways let's say which usually take a lot of time. They prioritized resource. So there's resource specifically waiting for this data to come in. And so, yeah, a lot of normal processes were adapted so that things could be done as efficiently as possible.And the outcome was that, you know, these drugs went through the entire process in a much more efficient way than would usually be encountered. I think another thing as well is with things like vaccines, the side effects that we anticipate to see, including the rare unusual ones ordinarily these manifest within, you know, days or weeks.It's not something that usually we anticipate things to occur years later. So there was that aspect too, but yeah, it was a, it was a unique time. Parmvir: Yeah. And actually this is a good throwback to Dr. Carina Rodriguez's podcast because she ran one of the clinical trials for the vaccine in children at USF where I work.David: Oh, fascinating. Parmvir: Yeah, so she talked about some of the things that you mentioned as well. David: I should say I was not involved sadly in any of the COVID vaccine development, but you know, it was fascinating to watch and actually to see my profession become a talking point in the news every day. Parmvir: Yes. David: It was very interesting to see all of this play out.Parmvir: Yeah. So actually, that's probably a good point to pause and ask you, what do you actually do? David: Okay. So [everyone laughs]. So as I've kind of indicated the process of pulling in adverse event data of coding it, which is the term we use for tidying up all of the data, putting it into a safety database, writing those narratives, getting the medical review, getting the important cases out the other end to the regulators, writing the reports, doing the signal section.These are very complicated processes and every company will develop them slightly differently. You know, small biotech companies, they might only have one product. It might only be approved in one or two countries. A top five pharma company will have hundreds of products authorized in many countries around the world. But all of these processes are put together in compliance with extremely strict regulations. Regulations that as I said exist in almost every country in the world and actually the regulations kind of cross over in the sense of, if you have a product that's authorized for marketing in the UK and the US, for example you know, the UK requires you to collect all the data and analyze it as does the US.They also require you to collect the data from each other's territories so companies are in the middle of the very complicated regulatory framework, which is a little bit different in each country, but fortunately is harmonized through some international bodies and international terminology. But building pharmacovigilance systems is complicated and it has to be done right. Firstly, for the obvious reason that we want to protect patients it's in no one's interest that that that patients are not protected. But also, you know, the penalties for not complying with these complex regulatory requirements are severe. And so my job really, as a, let's say senior leader within a pharmacovigilance department is to make sure that we build the right structures.And for these companies that we that we keep an eye out on all the areas, which are potential challenges and that companies are being compliant with the legislation to which we're all held. And so, so yeah, so building pharmacovigilance systems, I think is the simplest way I can describe it.Parmvir: It sounds pretty heavy and pretty complicated. David: Yeah. I mean, if you look at the larger pharma companies, if you add up all of the resource that they put into pharmacovigilance that they're legally required to put into pharmacovigilance, to service the needs of their products. A lot of things are outsourced these days, if you the count everything that comes from the outsourcing organizations as well, the big pharma companies have thousands of people like me involved in the processing and analysis of this data. So it is a big area, and that is all we do. You know, we are not involved in any other aspect of the drug. Not involved in the sales and marketing, for example, with the product, that's almost the complete opposite side of the company to us, all we do is you know, work in this very professionalized, very standardized discipline, which is pharmacovigilance. Parmvir: So David has a couple of questions. So first one should be relatively quick, which is that, is there a regulatory authority that is the gold standard? David: [David laughs] This is a very politically sensitive one.There are certainly some regulatory authorities who, particularly in some of the larger markets who are let's say more prominent. So examples would be the US FDA, the food and drug administration that is the drug regulatory authority for the United States. In the UK, we also have an extremely prominent regulator, the MHRA they're one of the oldest regulators, I believe in the world. So that's the UK medicines and healthcare products, regulatory agency. But you know, every country has its own regulator and whilst there are some who put themselves out there, perhaps as world leading regulators, there are just as many others that are doing the same important job for their countries. The European Union and European Economic Area has a slightly more complicated system because they have a coordinating regulatory authority, which is the European Medicines agency, the EMA, who many of you all have heard about in news reports, particularly during the COVID situation. But at a national level, you also have all of the national regulators who are working in tandem with the EMA. Parmvir: Okay. So this sounds quite different from, obviously it's very different from what you were doing during your PhD. David: Yes. Parmvir: He also wants to know, how did your PhD work, prepare you to do what you do now. David: If I could sum it up in one phrase, and this is a phrase which is overused, but I think in this case, it is really true: problem solving.Parmvir: Mm-hmm David: because it's interesting, you mentioned earlier that you and I we're almost engineers. Well, I went from becoming a physical engineer, at least in a lab environment to a process engineer. And, you know, I always used to think very naively when I was doing the basic research with you, I used to think, look, we are solving problems that no one knows the answer to. This must be the hardest job in the world. [Parmvir laughs] We're not solving manmade problems. Manmade problems must be so easy to solve. But no manmade problems [Parmvir laughs] are also particularly challenging. And when I say manmade problems, you know, I'm not talking about problems that someone is deliberately created, it's just, you know, logistical challenges, and just the challenges caused by working in, you know, different regulatory envionments with different sets of requirements and how to build processes that meet all of the requirements at the same time. And react to events, of course, because it might well be that you've had a product that has been ticking along nicely for a long time. And then suddenly there is a safety concern with the product. And if that safety concern is in the public domain, you will be deluged with reports in relation to that product called stimulated reporting. And you know, of course sometimes companies will be subject to class action lawsuits particularly in the US. So they might also receive large volumes of reports all in one go. All of those reports have to meet the same legal timelines, but now suddenly you've got 10,000 reports landed on your desk. Each one takes four hours to process and they're all due to the regulators in 15 days. So yeah, it is challenging working in a hyper regulated environment. Parmvir: Essentially these are problems that come about because we are humans. David: Exactly. Yeah. Parmvir: And we have to somehow live together. David: Yeah. Parmvir: So I had a couple of questions from my little sister and these might not be directly related to your work, but they are related to the fact that you work within an environment that involves clinical trials and patients and so on.And so Sukhy wants to know are side effects from drugs, usually the same for healthy people versus patients. David: This is a great question and cause me a little bit of head scratching. I think, I mean, the answer is it depends, I think by and large. Yes. But there will be some exceptions and those exceptions include things like some of the oncology treatments, because obviously there is an interaction often between the drug and the tumor, for example, so in a healthy person you can't emulate that because there is no tumor. So an example would be a phenomenon called tumorlysis syndrome which can only occur when there's a tumor to react to the particular drug. But by and large, yes, we extrapolate safety data from healthy individuals initially, which is why the earlier phases of studies are done often in healthy volunteers with some exceptions. But yeah. Then when we move on to phase two and then phase three, phase two and three are conducted in patients that have the indication of interest, I have the disease that we're trying to treat.Parmvir: So another question she had: how do you know people who are not healthy will be able to tolerate the drugs given that initially that they're tested on healthy people?David: So the first thing I would say is I'm not an expert in the design of clinical trials, but as I said, as you go through phase one which are the trials that are normally on healthy patients, you actually start out with a tiny, tiny dose. So you have an idea of dosing from your animal studies, but the data isn't always transferrable. But you take the maximum tolerable dose in animals, including in the most sensitive animals. And you then cut that by huge factor by perhaps 500 fold. Parmvir: Right. David: So you start out with a tiny amount and then you escalate up the doses to see how the patients are tolerating the drug, not the patients subject, I should say. So these are healthy volunteers usually. Parmvir: Yep. David: So that's phase one, but yeah, then of course, when you go into phase two, you're dealing with a different patient population. I don't know exactly how that's always done, but of course, you know, trials are put together by experts in the field. And they involve, you clinicians whose expertise is this particular area of medicine.Parmvir: Yeah. David: And of course it's not just the physicians at the pharmaceutical company and the biopharma company and the scientists, I should say as well. Also, this stuff is going to regulatory authorities, it's going to ethics committees, all of whom will have their own areas of expertise. So, you know, protocols are designed around the patient and to ensure the patients are not put at unnecessary risk.Parmvir: Ah, sometimes David sends me one of those questions that really makes me giggle. And this is if regulations are so important and onerous, how do I start my own biotech in the garage? David: [David laughs] Well, it's interesting, you know, companies don't necessarily have to be that big themselves to get started, but what they will need is a lot of help.Parmvir: Yeah. David: So what you'll see these days is you know, new biotechs starting up. But they rely very heavily on outsourcing. So they will partner with service providers with contract research organizations, with contract manufacturing organizations, all sorts of other parties that have the expertise that perhaps they aren't able to pull together themselves.But yeah, there are some companies out there, particularly smaller companies in earlier development that are, you know, pretty small might have 20 people in the company. Parmvir: Yeah. David: But they will need to rely on the help of many others, because going back to the kind of universe description that I gave, you know, there are so many specialized areas that you need to have covered in order to pull together everything you need, both to run a clinical trial. and also to submit a marketing authorization application. And then also keep your product compliant with all of the legal requirements that are out there.Parmvir: It's a lot.David: It is a lot, and you know this is why drug development is so costly because it needs a truly vast number of specialists involved. And, you know, quite a lot of physicians as well. And also, you know, most drugs that enter drug development don't make it all the way through the other end, so the end costs of medicinal products also have to cover the cost of the drugs that didn't make it.And plus companies only have a certain period of exclusivity before their drug becomes generic, i.e., other companies can start making it. Parmvir: So this is purely from a personal perspective, from your point of view: what do you think about the fact that obviously you have these companies who have put so much money developing these things, which were designed to treat a global pandemic. And yet we found that for example, like entire continents, like Africa still don't have a lot of people vaccinated against COVID 19, and those companies will refuse to open up the patents to allow them to be able to get people to stay healthy. David: Yeah, it's an area that really I'm not really sufficiently qualified to talk on. And I'm not just saying that, you know, through not wanting to put my foot in my mouth, but particularly with some of the vaccine technologies that were used, they were not simple medicines to manufacture. So not simple to manufacture, not simple to store, not simple to distribute. And sometimes I guess, it is perhaps a legitimate concern of a company that if other companies start making their same drug to a lower quality, that can have ramifications elsewhere. Now I'm not saying that that was the reason behind some of what you mentioned. Now there was a vaccine that was developed the UK vaccine which was specifically developed from the outset to be made available in developing world countries, let's say, and specifically to be made available at cost. And even the way that product was designed, it can be manufactured and stored at fridge temperature Parmvir: mm-hmm, which is a big deal. David: Exactly. It is a big deal, you know, those are all very important components to consider. A vaccine that could be used in those environments. But even, I remember because I vacuumed up all of the documentaries I think on television, Netflix, everywhere else about all of the challenges that were being faced. And, you know, there were even things that you just wouldn't think about, which was, you know, because the mRNA vaccines had to be stored at -80 [degrees Celsius], there wasn't enough minus 80 freezers in the developed countries, let alone figuring out how to develop and ship these to other countries with different climatic conditions.And so you even had the manufacturers of that type of equipment, having to up their game and suddenly churn out much more equipment than they previously had. So, yeah, there's no simple answer. I mean, historically there've been other challenges in the past with other types of drugs, such as the HIV medications. In the end access to those drugs was resolved through very careful dialogue between companies, regulators others. Access issues, I believe to those drugs, and again, this is just basically what I see on documentaries and other things; where are access problems these days, they're not in relation to the drug supply chain they're in relation to other things like people not wanting to come forward and receive treatment because of the stigma associated with things like that.Parmvir: So in short, do you enjoy your work? David: I do. I mean, I can honestly say that in my work every day is different. I'm very privileged in my job to support a number of different companies that are developing different products with a very wide variety of indications. And also, you know, just when you think you've seen it all worked with a wide variety of medicinal products, suddenly something completely new will come along. For example, we are now on the precipice of many commercial gene therapies coming out. Parmvir: Ooh. David: And you know, those products have some different considerations. Perhaps some of these interventions are irreversible Parmvir: mm-hmm.David: So, you know, what happens if patients do start developing something rare and unexpected. You have patients surviving a lot longer than was originally envisaged so, you know, are there other things which come about you know, as a result of the underlying disease that just no one had ever seen before. And yeah, many other types of technologies and the regulations are always having to evolve to take into account of these new therapies and the challenges associated with them.Parmvir: Well, it sounds like you will continue to live in interesting times. David: Yeah. I don't think I'm going anywhere anytime soon . Parmvir: Well, thank you so much for your time today, David. That was fantastic. And yeah, as I say, we kind of thought of you as soon as we started thinking about the safety surrounding things like COVID vaccines and knew that was your jam.So yes, we very much appreciate your time today. David: Okay. Thank you very much. [musical interlude]David: So I mentioned earlier that at an early point in my PhD, I switched to studying vascular endothelial cells that were harvested from pigs. So essentially these were pigs that were being slaughtered for the meat industry. And so I had to look through a phone book and identify an abattoir that I could go to and get the tissue that I needed to do my experiments so obviously this all had to start somewhere. So I put in a call to an abattoir in deepest, darkest Essex. And I gingerly made my way on the train to this place, which of course was in the middle of rural nowhere. And unfortunately the first day that I picked to go, it was snowing. Now we don't get vast amounts of snow in Southern England, but this was a decent sprinkling of snow. So I arrived in this quiet rural destination and I walked across various fields. I think I'd perhaps just got GPS on my phone, but it was very early days. And I was lost in fields of white in no time at all. So I ended up putting in a call to, the guys, to, come and pick me up, which they very kindly did. So then, you know, at that time I really didn't know what a coronary artery looked like so what I decided to do for that first trip was I just collected the fresh hearts that they were able to bring out the processing facility. So these were kind of warm pig hearts, freshly harvested from animals. I think I had three hearts or something like that. And so I had a large polystyrene box with me with some ice in it. And I think they were kind enough to give me the ice, as I put these hearts inside bags and put them in the box and then started making my way back to London. And of course, you know, this being a cold day, the heating was on, on the train, and so as I was sat on the train, in fact, I think it was when I got onto the tube, I suddenly became horrified that my polystyrene box was starting to leak water. And of course I knew, but no one else knew on the tube that within that water were bags, perhaps not secured, very tightly containing hearts and containing probably a fair amount of blood.And I suddenly started sweating that this puddle that was starting to pull around my polystyrene box on the floor of the tube would suddenly start to go pink and then red. And then before I knew it, I would be in serious trouble. So it was just one of those situations where the tube journey seemed to get longer and longer, and I was sweating more and more and then it got to the point where I felt that I couldn't wait any longer, so I kind of dashed outta the tube at the next station went up what was perhaps one of the longest escalators on the underground and managed to just get out the other side before I caused perhaps a fake terrorist incident or something like that. I was trying to think about how I would explain that I'd got three hearts in my polystyrene box and a set of scalpels bearing in mind that pig's hearts are very similar size to human hearts as well. So, yes, I managed just about to get to the lab. I clearly looked quite distressed, I suppose when I got back to the lab. So I started telling this story to my PhD supervisor, Dennis, and uh a retired professor that had come into the department, Don. And before too long, the two of them were crying with laughter at my story.So, um, so yeah, so that was my very first trip and yes, never, never forgotten.[musical outro]David: Our lab, when we first joined, it was quite old and a bit dog eared. And there was one particular chair in the office, which was, I mean, it was like a typical office swivel chair, but it had definitely seen better days and it was extremely uncomfortable. And when we had lab meetings, no one wanted to sit on this chair. And so Parmvir and I nicknamed it, Beelzebub's stool.

Langley Vale Wood is a really special place. Created as part of the Trust's First World War Centenary Woods project, it's a natural living legacy for the fallen that symbolises peace and hope. Memorials offer space to remember in an evocative and moving tribute. As well as these important reflections on the past, the site has a bright future. Previously an arable farm that became non-viable, nature is now thriving, with butterfly, bird and rare plant numbers all up. Join site manager Guy Kent and volunteer David Hatcher to explore the ‘Regiment of Trees', the ‘Witness' memorial and Jutland Wood. Discover too how the site is being transformed into a peaceful oasis for people and nature and why some of these fields are internationally important. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Hello! I've got to start by telling you this. I have driven to Langley Vale today and I've been driving through suburban London, really not very much aware of my surroundings, and you come up this hill and suddenly everything falls away and you burst out onto the top of the hill and it's all sky and Epsom Downs. And the racecourse is just ahead of you! And it dramatically changes. So, it's quite, it's quite an entrance into the Langley Vale forest area. I've come to meet, well, a couple of people here. I've drawn up next to a farm, I don't really know where they are, but it gives me a moment to tell you a little bit about the Langley Vale project which is amazing. It's a lovely thought behind it, because it is about honouring those who died in the First World War, and of course, there are many ways in which we honour and remember the people whose lives were changed forever during that global conflict. There are war memorials, headstones, poetry and paintings – and those man-made accolades – they capture all the names, the dates, the emotions and the places. And of course, they are vital in recording and recounting the difficult and very harrowing experiences from that conflict. But, what this venture, I think, wanted to achieve with its First World War Centenary Woods Project was a natural, living legacy for the fallen. Flourishing places that symbolise peace and hope, as well as remembering and marking the dreadful events of war, but doing that in the shape of nature and hope for the future. Both now and for many, many generations to come, providing havens for wildlife and for people – and I'm one of those people – and so it's a great project, it's in its very early stages, but it's a great opportunity, I think, to have a look around today. So, oh! There's two people wandering down the road there in shorts, I think they're hikers, I don't think they are who I am seeing. [Pause] Adam: So, Guy you're the site manager here, just tell me a little bit about the site. Guy: So, we are on the North Downs here in Surrey. It's a huge ridge of chalk that runs along southern England and down through Kent, it pops under the channel and pops up again in France. And this chalk ridge has got very special habitats on it in terms of woodland, chalk grassland, and we're very thrilled here that we've been able to buy, in 2014, a formerly intensively managed arable farm that was actually not very productive. The soils are very thin here on the hills the chalk with flints, so, pretty poor for growing crops, and we were very lucky to buy it as part of our First World War Centenary Woods project as England's Centenary Wood. Adam: So, tell me a bit about the Centenary Woods part of this. Guy: So, the idea of the project was to put a new woodland in each country of the United Kingdom, that being Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England. This is the England site, and it is the largest of the four sites. We've actually planted 170,000 trees here. We did go through a full Environmental Impact Assessment and this enabled us to find out where we could plant trees because there are some special habitats here, and there is a national character to the North Downs – national character being that much of the woodland is planted on the high ground and much of the lower land is actually open space, be that for arable use or pasture. Adam: This is a Centenary Wood, so, is this just an ordinary woodland planted in the name of those who died during the First World War? Guy: Yes. The difference is… one of the reasons this site was selected was because we do actually have history here from the First World War. We've got a number of memorials that I hope to show you today. One of which commemorates a day in January 1915. Lord Kitchener inspected 20,000 troops here that had gathered and recently joined, taking up the call to join his new army. So, there were many sorts of civilians here in civilian clothing. They got up at 4am in the morning, I'm told, to all assemble here for him arriving at 10am with his equivalent French minister, and they inspected the troops for a very short period of time because they had other troops to go and inspect nearby. But many of those 20,000 actually then ended up going over, obviously, over to the frontline and many were not to return. Adam: Shall we have a walk down? And what is there then to commemorate that? Are there, are these just trees planted in memory of that occasion, or have you got a sort of statue or something? Guy: Yeah, well, the Regiment of Trees as we're just about to see, as you go around the corner… An artist, we commissioned an artist called Patrick Walls who has actually created some statues for us replicating that event. So, we have men standing to attention carved out of sandstone… Adam: Wow, yes. Just turning around the corner here and you can see this, yes, individual soldiers standing proud of a field of, actually, white daisies just emerging made from that sandstone you say? Guy: Yes sandstone. Adam: Sandstone soldiers. We are just walking up to them now, but behind that is all, I mean, I'm assuming this is a statue, but a statue made of trees. Guy: Indeed, what you're looking at there Adam is a memorial that we've called Witness. It's actually created by an artist called John Merrill and it is made up of parts of oak trees that have been assembled and it's inspired by the World War One painter Paul Nash, who was a cubist artist, and a particular painting of his called ‘Trees on the Downs' and that's inspired by that. And we're very lucky to have included within the memorial part of an oak out of Wilfred Owen's garden. Adam: Wow! Guy: Yeah so it's constructed to look like trees that have been obliterated, effectively, on the frontline, very evocative. Adam: Yes, you get very evocative pictures of a single tree either, you know, scarred black or sometimes actually still alive in a field of chaos. Guy: That's right yeah. And that's kind of trying to illustrate that in our memorial here, and what you can do, the public can actually walk through it. We've got a couple of benches within it, actually, where people can sit and contemplate, and actually written on the inside of some of these beams that go up are actually excerpts from poems from First World War poets. Adam: So, this first statue we're actually standing by it's sort of transformed in the flow of the statue – so it comes out of the ground as a sort of textured rock and as you go up 5 foot, 6 foot the statue also transforms into a man, but this man is wearing a suit and flat cap, so is a civilian. Guy: Indeed, and that's kind of trying to illustrate the fact that many of them are just joined up and a number of them haven't even got their uniform yet. Adam: So, let's move on, ahead of us, there's this sort of city gent on the left but looks a bit grander, but on the right, there are obviously… these look like officers. Guy: Yeah, the best, how I can best describe this is, that we've actually got 12 statues here and they're actually sitting among standard trees that were planted. So, we've got birch here, we've got beech, we've got whitebeam and we've got maple. But, these statues, the twelve of them, are in four lines. The guys at the back have only just joined up and they haven't had their uniform yet. And what the artist wanted to illustrate was the fact that all classes joined up at the same time. So, we have a working-class guy with his flat cap down the end there, we have our middle-class guy here with his hat on, and then we have the upper classes as well – it's meant to illustrate that everybody was in it together and joined in. Adam: I thought this was an officer, but I can see from his insignia he's a corporal. Guy: Indeed, and if you look at the statues Adam, as we go nearer the front to where Kitchener would have inspected, they all put the guys at the front who had all their webbing, all their uniform already, and as we move back through the lines it was less and less uniform and equipment. Adam: It's very evocative, I have to say, it's much more emotional than I thought it would be. Shall we go over to the sculpture? Guy: Yes let's. Adam: So, this is called ‘Witness'. Guy: So, this is ‘Witness' yes, and this is… John Merrill created this, he's got a yard in Wales where he works wood of this size. As you can see, it's quite a structure. Adam: So, yes as you say this size… So, I'm very bad at judging, six… I am trying to think, how many six-foot men could you fit under here? Six, twelve, I dunno thirty foot high? Was that fair? Guy: I tend to work in metres, I don't know about you, but I'm going to say about six metres at its highest point. Adam: So, it's made of, sort of, coming into it… it's… actually, it's quite cathedral-like inside. Small but is that a fair description? Guy: Yeah, I think so. Adam: *inaudible* Now, every second tree here has a line of First World War poetry etched into it rather beautifully. Do you want to read just a couple out for us? Guy: Yes… so here we have one saying: “And lying in sheer I look round at the corpses of the larches. Whom they slew to make pit-props.” [editor: Afterwards by Margaret Postgate Cole]. “At evening the autumn woodlands ring with deadly weapons. Over the golden plains and lakes…” [editor: Grodek by Georg Trakl]. Adam: Amazing, it's an amazing place. There are a couple of benches here and these are… Guy: These are the names of the poets. So, we have W Owen here, we have E Thomas, J W Streets, M P Cole, amongst others. Adam: Very moving, very moving. Okay, well it's a big site isn't it, a big site. So, where are we going to go to next? Guy: Well, we can walk through now Adam, we can see a new community orchard that we planted in 2017. Adam: So, we've come into, well a big part of, well there are a huge number of trees here. So, is this the main planting area? Guy: Yes, this is the main planting area. There are approximately 40,000 trees in here. Adam: We're quite near a lot of urban areas, but here they've all disappeared, and well, the field goes down and dips up again. Is that all Woodland Trust forest? Guy: That's right, what you can see ahead of us there is actually the first planting that we did on this site in 2014, on that hillside beyond. Adam: 2014? So, eight, eight… Guy: Eight years old. Adam: [laughs] Thank you, yes mental maths took me a moment. So, the reason I was doing that, is that they look like proper trees for only eight years old. Guy: It just shows you that obviously, you think that when we're planting all these trees now – that none of us will perhaps be here long enough to enjoy them when they're mature trees, but I think you can see from just by looking over there that that woodland is eight years old and it's very much started to look like a woodland. Adam: Very much so, well, brilliant. Well, very aptly I can see, starting to see poppies emerging in the fields amongst the trees. They do have this sort of sense of gravestones, in a way, don't they? They're sort of standing there in regimented rows amongst the poppy fields. So, where to now? Guy: So, we'll go to Jutland Wood, which is our memorial to the Battle of Jutland. Adam: The famous sea battle Guy: Yes, it was the largest battle of the First World War which raged over two days, the 31st of May to the 1st of June 1916. We're going to meet our volunteer, lead volunteer, David Hatcher now, who's been working with us on the site for a number of years, and he's going to tell you about this memorial that we've got to the Battle of Jutland. Adam: Right, I mean, here it's, it's different because there are these rather nice, actually, sculpted wooden stands. What are these? Guy: Yeah, these are… actually commemorate… we've got what we call naval oaks. So, we've got a standard oak planted for each of the ships that were lost in that particular battle and we've also, between them, we've got these port holes that have been made by an artist called Andrew Lapthorn, and if I can describe those to you, they are sort of a nice piece, monolith of wood with a porthole in the middle of…, a glass porthole, that indicates how many lives were lost and it has the name of the ship. Adam: So, this is HMS Sparrowhawk where six lives were lost, 84 survivors, but HMS Fortune next door, 67 lives lost, only ten survivors, and it just goes on all the way through. Guy: As you walk through the feature Adam, the actual lives lost gets a bit more, bigger and bigger, and by the end it's… there were very few survivors on some of the ships that went down, and they are illustrated on these nice portholes that commemorate that. Adam: And this is all from the Battle of Jutland? Guy: Battle of Jutland this is yeah. Adam: And just at the end here HMS Queen Mary, 1,266 lives lost, only 20 survivors from 1913. Very, very difficult. [Walking] Guy: This memorial, actually illustrates…, is by a lady called Christine Charlesworth, and what we have here is a metal representation of a sailor from 1916 in his uniform. And that faces the woodland here, where you can see ancient semi natural woodland that would have been here in 1916. So, this sailor is looking to the past and our ancient woodland. If we look to the other side of the sailor, we have a sailor from 2016 in his uniform and he's looking in the opposite direction, and he's looking at our newly planted trees – looking to the future. Adam: Let's walk through here, and at the end of this rather… I mean it is very elegantly done but obviously sombre. But, at the end here we're going to meet David who's your lead volunteer. So, David, so you're the lead volunteer for this site? And, I know that's, must be quite a responsibility because this is quite a site! David: That's very flattering - I'm a lead volunteer - I have lots of brilliant colleagues. Adam: Really? So, how many of you are there here? David: About seven lead volunteers, there are about one hundred volunteers on the list. Adam: And what do you actually do here? David: Ah well it's a whole range of different things. As you know this was an intensively farmed arable site. And there were lots of things like old fences and other debris. It was also used as a shooting estate, so there were things left over from feeding pheasants and what have you. Adam: Right. David: A lot of rubbish that all had to be cleared because it's open access land from the Woodland Trust, and we don't want dogs running into barbed wire fences and things like that. Adam: And it's different from, well I think, almost any other wood. It has this reflection of World War One in it. What does that mean to you? David: Well, it actually means a lot to me personally, because I was the first chairman of the Veteran's Gateway. So, I had a connection with the military, and it was brilliant for me to be able to come and do something practical, rather than just sitting at a desk, to honour our veterans. Adam: And do you notice that people bring their families here who have had grandfathers or great grandfathers who died in World War One? David: Yes, they do and in particular we have a memorial trail in November, every year, and there's a wreath where you can pick up a little tag and write a name on it and pin it to this wreath, and that honours one of your relatives or a friend, or somebody like that, and families come, and children love writing the names of their grandpa on and sticking it to the wreath. Adam: And do you have a family connection here at all? David: My father actually served in the, sorry, actually my grandfather served at the Battle of Jutland. Adam: Wow and what did he do there? David: He was a chief petty officer on a battleship, and he survived I am happy to say, and perhaps I would never have been here had he not, and all of my family – my father, my mother, both my grandfathers were all in the military. Adam: And do you remember him talking to you about the Battle of Jutland? David: He didn't, but what he did have was, he had a ceremonial sword which I loved, I loved playing with his ceremonial sword. Adam: Gotcha. And you are still here to tell the tale! [Laughter] David: And so are all my relatives! [Laughter] Adam: Yes, please don't play with ceremonial swords! [Laughter] That's amazing. Of course, a lot of people don't talk about those times. David: No. Adam: Because it's too traumatic, you know… as we've seen how many people died here. David: Yes. Adam: Well look, it's a relatively new woodland and we're just amongst, here in this bit, which commemorates Jutland, the trees are really only, some of them, poking above their really protective tubes. But what sort of changes have you seen in the last seven, eight odd years or so since it's been planted? David: It's changed enormously. It's quite extraordinary to see how some trees have really come on very well indeed, but also a lot of wildflowers have been sown. We have to be very careful about which we sow and where because it's also a very valuable natural wildflower site, so we don't want them getting mixed up. Adam: So, what's your favourite part of the site then? David: Ah well my favourite part…, I'm an amateur naturalist, so there's the sort of dark and gloomy things that are very like ancient woodland. We call them ancient semi-natural woodland. So there is Great Hurst Wood which is one of the ancient woodlands. Adam: Here on this site? David: Yes, on this site. It's just over there, but we have another couple of areas that are really ancient semi-natural woodland, but actually, I love it all. There's something for everybody: there's the skylarks that we can hear at the moment; the arable fields with very rare plants in; the very rare fungi in the woods. Actually, that line of trees that you can see behind you is something called the Sheep Walk, and the Sheep Walk is so-called because they used to drive sheep from all the way from Kent to markets in the west of the county, and they've always had that shelterbelt there – it's very narrow – so they've always had it there to protect the sheep from the sun, or the weather, or whatever. And it's the most natural bit of ancient woodland that there is, even though it's so narrow and it's fascinating what you can find under there. Adam: And I saw you brought some binoculars with you today. So, I mean, what about sort of the birds and other animals that presumably have flourished since this was planted? David: It's getting a lot better. The Woodland Trust has a general no chemicals and fertiliser policy and so as the soil returns to its natural state then other things that were here before, sometimes resting in the soil, are beginning to come up. We, I think, we surveyed maybe 20 species of butterflies in the first year… there are now over… 32! And there are only 56 different species over the country, so we have a jolly good proportion! We have two Red List birds at least here – skylarks and lapwings nesting. It's all getting better; it's getting a lot better under new management. Adam: [chuckle] Fantastic! Well, it's a real, a real joy to be here today. Er so, we're here in the Jutland woodland. Where, where are we going to next do you think? Where's the best place…? David: We're going to have a look at one of the wonderful poppy fields. Adam: Right. David: Because the poppies come up just as they did in Flanders every summer and it's, it really is a sight to behold. Adam: And is this peak poppy season? David: It's just passed… Adam: Just passed. David: So, we hope they are still there and haven't been blown away. Adam: It would be typical if I have got here and all the poppies have gone. Forget it, alright, let's go up there. So, well this is quite something! So, we've turned into this other field, and it is a field, well never in my life have I seen so many poppies! Mainly red poppies, but then there are…, what are these amongst them? Guy: Yeah. So, what you can see is a number of species of poppies here. The main one you can see, it's the red Flanders poppy. Adam: And is this natural or planted because of the First World War reference? Guy: No, it's mostly…, we did supplement this with some…, we've actually planted some of these poppy seeds, but most of them are natural and it's a direct result of the fact that we continue to cultivate the land. One of the most important conservation features we have here on site is rare arable plants. Bizarrely, these plants were once called arable weeds, but when intensification of farming began in the mid-20th century, the timing of ploughing was changed, the introduction of herbicides, all these things meant that these so-called arable weeds actually became quite rare and they were just hanging on to the edges of fields. What we've been able to do here is to continue to cultivate the land sympathetically for these plants and we now have much, much better arable plant assemblages here. We have rare arable plants here now, that mean that some of these fields are of national importance and a couple of them are of international importance, but a by-product of cultivating the land every year for these is that we get displays of poppies like this every year. Adam: And when you cultivate, you're talking about cultivating the land, you're planting these poppies, or what does that mean? Guy: No, it's almost like replicating the fact…, it's as if we're going to plant a crop, so we actually plough the field and then we roll it as if we're going to prepare a crop. Adam: But you don't actually plant a crop. Guy: No, no exactly. And then we leave it fallow and then naturally these arable plants tend to actually populate these fields. Poppies are incredibly nectar-rich, they're actually quite short-lived… Some of you may know poppies that grow in your garden, and they could be out in bloom one day and completely blown off their petals the next day. They don't, like, last very long, but they do pack a powerful punch for nectar, so definitely invertebrates… Because we don't use chemicals here anymore which would have been used constantly on this farm – and what that means is that many of these arable plants, they require low fertility otherwise they get out-competed by all the things you'd expect like nettles, docks and thistles. So as the land improves so will hopefully arable plant assemblages making them even more impressive than they already are. Adam: But actually, as the, as the soil improves isn't that a problem for things like poppies ‘cause they'll get out-competed by other plants which thrive better? Guy: It's a fair point, but what is actually crucial – is that to actually increase biodiversity in these fields it actually requires low nutrients. In terms of a lot of these fields, as well, we have, from years of chemical application, we have a lot of potassium, we have a lot of magnesium in them, and they have a lot of phosphorus too now. Magnesium and potassium tend to leach out of the soil so they will improve naturally, phosphorus tends to bind the soil and sticks around for a long time. So, we're trying to get these chemicals down to acceptable levels to make them more attractive for rare plants and therefore increasing biodiversity. Adam: Well, it is, it is like a painting and I'm going to take a photo and put it on my Twitter feed. I just, [gasp] so if anyone wants to see that, head over there. But it is beautiful, properly beautiful. I mean, so we were walking by this extraordinary painting of a poppy field to our right. It's a site which has been revolutionised because it was all arable farming less than a decade ago. What has that done for biodiversity here? Guy: Well, as we can imagine these fields, it's quite difficult to imagine them as we walk through them now, but these would have all been bare fields that were basically in crop production and there's clearly been an explosion of invertebrate activity here. We've got increasing butterfly species every year, our bird numbers are starting to go up, but also importantly we've got certain areas where habitats are being allowed to develop. So, we have a former arable field here that is now developing, it has been planted up with hazel coppice in a system we call ‘coppice with standards', where we plant… Adam: Coppice with standards? Guy: Coppice with standards yeah. Adam: Oo, well very grand! Guy: It is! It's an old forestry practice where they planted lots of hazel trees that would have been worked and then periodically in amongst them, there will be oak trees that would be allowed to grow longer and then harvested at a later date. What this has meant is that we've got long grass now that is growing between these trees and that's making it much more attractive for small mammals on site. Adam: Like what? What sort of small mammals? Guy: Things like voles, wood mice, field voles, these sort of things that make sort of tracks and sort of tunnels within the grass. And what that has meant is, as we go up the food chain is, that that's become more attractive now on the site for raptors. A nice story from two years ago - we have a volunteer that works with us who is a BTO bird ringer, and he sort of approached us to say “you've got barn owls nearby and your site is starting to develop nicely. How do you fancy putting up some raptor boxes to see if we can attract them in?” So, which was great, and we managed…, the local bird club donated some barn owl boxes, we put the barn owl boxes up in this field we have just talked about – the hazel coppice field – and the expert said “well they probably won't nest in it this year. They'll come and have a look…” Anyway, we put it up…, two months later… it was being used and we were able to ring those three chicks that came from that and they've been breeding ever since. Adam: Wow, how amazing! Must be very heartening to be working on the site which is growing like that so quickly. Guy: It is, it's amazing and when you consider that we're within the M25, we're very close to London, but we've got this site that is growing and it's only going to get better as we manage it sympathetically for the wildlife that it hosts. Adam: We're just coming round the bend and back to almost where we started into this field of standing soldiers amongst the growing trees, and the cathedral-like tree sculpture there which will take us back to the beginning. So we've just done a little tour… Guy: Yeah, Adam: So, I dunno half an hour, 40 minutes or so. Presumably, we skirted the edges of this… Guy: You certainly have Adam! It's a fraction of the site. We are 640 acres in size and we're just at the top part of it. This area that we've largely walked around today is very much focused on World War One and our memorials, but much of the rest of the site is, actually, is quite a bit quieter, there are fewer people around and the focus is definitely more on wildlife. Adam: Yes, well, it has been an amazing trip, I have to say, I've been to lots of different Woodland Trust woods all the way up the country, to the far stretches of Scotland. I have to say I think this is my favourite. It's quite, quite a site! And the memorial is done really tastefully and fits in with the landscape. I think this is quite, quite a site for you to manage, it's quite a thing. Guy: It's incredible and we are just so proud of it and we just can't wait to be able to open our car park and invite people from further afield, and not just locals who get to enjoy it as is the case at the moment. Adam: Absolutely. Well look, thank you! It started this morning, bright sun, it looked like I shouldn't need to bring a coat then all of a sudden, I thought “Oh my goodness”, we're standing under a completely black cloud but it has not rained, it is not raining, we're in running distance of the car so… Guy: Somebody's looking down on us Adam, at least for a couple of hours. Adam: They are indeed, well thank you very much! Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers and don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes, or wherever you're listening to us, and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

Protecting yourself from recession isn't always easy. You've probably been through a recession or two in your time. And so for people who haven't done this, it's not fun. It's not an exciting time. But I think the first thing that leap to mind for me is not to panic because for a lot of people, that's the go-to strategy, and not necessarily the best one. And you recognize that, okay, things might be different here. Just as they were during the pandemic. They're different, but it doesn't mean that you can't succeed, even while others are struggling. David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. Today, cohost Jay McFarland and I will be discussing the idea of protecting yourself from recession. Welcome back, Jay. Jay: Yeah, thank you for letting me be here. This is a big word that I'm hearing a lot now. The potential for recession, you know, we have a lot of inflation. We've got supply chain issues. You've got real estate issues. And so it's something I think every company should be saying, "okay, what are we going to do if things start to turn south?" Because we really have enjoyed a pretty aggressive economy even through the pandemic. David: Yes we did. I feel a little bad even really talking about this topic. Because I feel like, for some people, they are just getting past pandemic stuff and quarantine and all that kind of thing. Jay: Mm-hmm David: And things seem to be going reasonably well with a lot of businesses at the moment. Sales are up in a lot of businesses compared to last year. But everything we hear in the news is very concerning. And so I thought, okay, well we should at least discuss this. Not from the standpoint of how bad things are, but what can we do about it? Because that's really the big thing. Jay: Yeah, you know, I work with a lot of restaurants and I watched them pivot during the recession. And a lot did very well, but they had to be very smart. Like let's shut down our dining room. Let's go delivery only. Let's go drive-through only. David: Mm-hmm Jay: And it's something they were kind of deciding on the fly. It made me realize that every company should have a plan, not just like "let's hope this doesn't happen. And if it does, we'll figure it out when it does." David: Yeah, it's really amazing. Because some restaurants did really badly and others, who were able to make that switch, have now not only done well during a difficult time, but they've also created a secondary revenue stream for themselves. Whereas before they might not have done takeout, they might not have done a lot of that sort of thing. And those restaurants are doing great now because they still have all the people who are picking stuff up, but then they also have people coming in. But when we look at this, I think, you know, the idea of a recession and thinking in terms of, okay, well, what are some things we can do? And I've been through them before. You've probably been through a recession or two in your time. And so for people who haven't done this, it's not fun. It's not an exciting time. But I think the first thing that leap to mind for me is not to panic because for a lot of people, that's the go-to strategy, and not necessarily the best one. And you recognize that, okay, things might be different here. Just as they were during the pandemic. They're different, but it doesn't mean that you can't succeed, even while others are struggling. Jay: Yeah, and for me, it's always an issue of, okay, we know we're going to have to have cuts. We don't have the revenue coming in. And so where do we start? And oftentimes I see the cuts in what I consider to be the wrong places. Like, okay, the first thing to go, it seems like always to me is marketing, right? David: Marketing, right. Jay: And that's the number one off the top. And that's the one that could potentially keep you alive. David: Yeah, it's a great point because when you think about what people do during difficult times,

Join us at Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Wood, Leics to discover a thriving 10-year-old wood, chat royal trees and celebrate the Platinum Jubilee. We meet with site manager David Logan to explore the site's connections with the royal family, its special art features and some of the wildlife, sights and sounds you might encounter on a visit.  Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk. Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, like all good podcasts let's start with a story and this one obviously is about a tree. It stands in a quiet part of central London called Lincoln's Inn Fields – the centre of the legal profession. It sits, well, just outside of a gated 11-acres of parkland in one of the otherwise busiest and noisiest parts of the country. It was planted in 1953 and since then the well-heeled men and women of the legal profession, who worked there, often sheltered under its branches, passed it by, both ignoring it and perhaps enjoying it. In the 70 years that tree has been growing, there have been many monumental events and world figures who have both entered and left the stage. When it was first planted, Winston Churchill was Prime Minister. Since then, entering and often leaving the limelight – Elvis Presley, Martin Luther King, Yuri Gagarin, The Beatles, Marilyn Monroe, John F Kennedy, video players were invented, personal computers and mobile phones were created, and there have been 15 prime ministers. But in all that time, as a living witness to that history of the new Elizabethan Age, there has been only one monarch – Queen Elizabeth II. No one has played such a long-lived part in the nation's history as the Queen. The tree that still stands by Lincoln's Inn Fields is one of literally millions that have been planted in the name of the Queen. Trees, of course, have an even longer perspective on time than Her Majesty but both stand as witnesses and part of history stretching back and reaching forward far beyond the timescales most of us live by. It's very fitting, therefore, that on this Platinum Jubilee the Woodland Trust has partnered with the Queen's Green Canopy Project to invite everyone across the UK to plant a network of trees, avenues, copse, and whole woodlands, in honour of the Queen's service and legacy From a single sapling in a garden to a whole wood, the aim is to create 70 Platinum Jubilee Woods of 70 acres each – every tree bringing benefits for people, wildlife and climate – now and for the future. And so, I took this opportunity to visit the Trust's Diamond Jubilee Wood in Leicestershire, where I met the man responsible for looking after the woodland, David Logan. David: So, this is Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Woods and it's a flagship site of a scheme that the Woodland Trust has to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. So, what we endeavoured to do, and we've successfully done. We created 75+ woods of 60 acres or more and they were the Queen's Diamond Jubilee Woods. And, this is the flagship one of those woods, making it the largest single-owned block of native broadleaf woodland in the National Forest area. Adam: What immediate, I mean, we've not really gone in yet, but what immediately surprises me is this is really quite, well, it's a very young wood. Yet, it already but quite mature I mean, were these species, was this all planted? David: You're looking at a hedgerow and beyond that are the trees at the same height as the hedgerow. So yeah no, it is to me, you know, a refute to people who say 'why bother planting woods because you never get to walk under the bows of the trees' but these, only ten years ago this was planted and when you get into the site, you're definitely in a wood now 10 years later. Adam: those trees are all on the quite tall… David: They must be 10-12 feet tall. Adam: Yeah, looks even taller to me but then I'm unsure. Okay, go on, lead on. Tell me a bit about then what this site sort of is, why it's special, you know, biologically special? David: Because of, it's big! You get that really wild feeling when you're here. So, you know, 267 hectares are completely devoted to nature. There's not, well, I don't think there's anywhere else particularly like that in this part of the country. And, so yeah, it does stand out. We get lots of different wildlife: lots of birds, lots of invertebrates, butterflies and a really good show of wildflowers as well. We will see some of them. Adam: And what was here before? Was it just an empty field? David: No. So, it was an open cast coal mine. So, the whole lot was owned by UK Coal and then the central part of it where the lake is was the largest hole in Europe! When it was done 750,000 tonnes of coal came out. Adam: Wow! So, I mean, there's no sign of that at all, because open cast mining can be a real scar on the land, can't it? I mean, it doesn't look pretty and then yet is there still a hole, was that all backfilled? David: That's all backfilled yeah so all of the substrate that wasn't coal will have been stored around the site and then all put back in the hole. Adam: How long have you been here then? David: So, I've been site manager for three years now, so.... Adam: Right. David: Yeah, seen it develop.  Adam: So, what sort of, I mean, three years is not a long time, especially in the life span of trees, but what sort of changes have you seen over that period? David: I think the biggest one recently is we took away all of the tree tubes and the fencing that the original kind of planting scheme relied on to protect it from deer and rabbits. Yeah, which has completely changed the way the site feels. So, no more sea of plastic tubes and no more fences to get in the way. So, you can get to walk where you like now, as well as the wildlife can get around the site a bit easier, and it really has changed the way it all feels Adam: In terms of the local community engagement and their use of this wood, what's that like? David: It's been great. Yeah, been great right from the outset, so, we had a lot of community involvement with the original planting and then again with extensions, voluntarily. Adam: And how well used is it by the locals then? David: Yeah, yeah, very well used, very rarely do you ever come to the car park and there's less than five cars in it. Adam: We're coming to, I can see... what's that building over there? That looks very pretty! David: So, that is what we call the welcome barn. So, I've got two buildings I've got on this site. I've got the welcome barn and I've got bird hide as well. Adam: Wow! So, what happens? Is there someone with tea and crumpets in the welcome barn for us? David: Unfortunately not no, but there are some interpretation panels that tell you the story of the site and a nice mosaic that was made by the volunteers as well, at the beginning of the site. And then a little compost toilet round the back! Adam: Laughs Okay that's good, good to know, good to know! And tell me about the bird hide then. David: So, the bird hide is yet another lovely building overlooking a lake. So, the lake was kind of formed by the sinking of the coal mine and the soil around it, and yeah, so just a nice bird hide, we'll go and look at it. Adam: What sort of birds do you get? David: The most exciting bird that we've had here is a hen harrier.  Adam: Right! Wow! And look, and this welcome barn, this also seems to be unusual for a Woodland Trust site? You don't normally see these things. David: Don't normally get a building no, I'm lucky to have two! Adam: And look at... really, really lovely sort of mosaic on the floor – Woodland Trust mosaic which sort of looks quite 1950s like... Do you know how long this…? This can't be that...? David: No no, that was built when the barn was built and the site was created in 2012 and it's meant to, kind of, reflect the Roman history of the site. So, we've got a Roman road that we just crossed over there, and then we've got two areas of our underlining archaeology which we know are Roman on the site. And so, we know there's certainly a lot of Roman activity, hence a Romanesque kind of mosaic. Adam: So, just explain a bit about where we are. David: So, these are called the groves – The Royal Groves – as part of Royal Groves Walk, and as part of the creation of the site. There was a royal Grove created for each year of the Queen's reign, so, they're in a series of circles and each one has a post and people can sponsor the grove and the post and then they get their little plaque added to the grove post for their year. I believe that certain years become more popular than others for various reasons and, but yeah, you'll see all these names. My favourite one, I think, is just this one. This grove is dedicated to the dahlia. Adam: That's fantastic laugh dahlia appreciation society sponsors. So, tell me a bit about the trees we're seeing here, there's clearly a whole mixture. David: Yes. So, they're all native broadleaf trees. We have got birch and oak going round. There is no ash in this part of the wood because ash dieback was kind of discovered just as the planting was going ahead and so we're lucky. There is a compartment in the north which got ash put into it. You might see the occasional ash tree that's self-set. So, we've got a Jubilee Grove Trail going on at the weekend for the... to celebrate the Platinum Jubilee that's coming up, encouraging people to, kind of, wander around the trails, and we're going to have these tree rings, sections of a tree... one per decade of the Queen's reign and with various large events that happen within that decade there will be a tree ring. Adam: Will that be permanent? David: No, it'll just be for the month of June and there will be a large wicker crown somewhere onsite as well. Adam: That's all happening next weekend? David: Well, late this week, next weekend. Adam: You've got a lot of work to do. I'm amazed you've got the time spare to wander around with me. David: Yeah well. Yeah, yeah there's always... it's always a rare commodity time I'm afraid Adam. Adam: Now you didn't design this here? You're a new boy! David: I am a new boy here! Adam: So, who actually designed it? David: So, it was a lady called Kerrie who is here, here now. She knows lots more about the groves than me as the designer and helped put it all in. Adam: Brilliant, hi Kerrie! Kerrie: Hi Adam. I think I don't think I want to say that I designed the wood but... Adam: I was building you up! Kerrie: You were, thank you, but the layout of the groves and... I was certainly involved in the design of the concept and then how we spoke to individuals about whether they would like to be involved in this. So, it was an opportunity for families to dedicate their own acre of woodland and help us develop this wood, as well as being part of a feature that enables you to walk through the Queen's reign. Kind of, physically walk through every year of the Queen's reign, so it's really special. Adam: Which is amazing, isn't it?  Kerrie: Yes, it is.  Adam: Tell me a bit about this royal connection because this wasn't, sort of, just a random, sort of, marketing idea. There's a really good basis for this royal connection isn't there? Kerrie: Absolutely, yeah so, at the Woodland Trust in 2011 we started a project to celebrate the Queen's Diamond Jubilee – so, sixty years of the Queen's reign – and we wanted to enable people across the country to plant trees and create woodland. We did that in a number of ways. So, we had this aspiration to create sixty Diamond Woods each of 60-acres in size, which is a big, really big commitment! And we also encourage people to create Jubilee Woods which were much smaller copses of trees in community spaces. And we distributed trees to schools and communities all across the country. Actually, it was hugely successful so the wood we are here at today is the Woodland Trust's flagship Diamond Wood. And then we had landowners and organisations and local authorities who also wanted to be involved. We needed to create 60-acre woods, we didn't know if we'd get to sixty actually inaudible we did get to sixty, we surpassed that, we had seventy-five woods at that scale created! Adam: So, seventy-five 60-acre wood Kerrie: Plus woods yeah, amazing, so, it's the first sixty of the Diamond Woods and then we have fifteen woods that we call the Princess Woods. Adam: Amazing, and so this was to commemorate that reign, and this is a lovely theme though! You can wander through the years of the Queen's reign. But the royal connection to woods is long and deep, isn't it? Kerrie: It is yeah. So, we were really fortunate that Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal was patron of that project. But there's a long and well-established connection between the royal family and tree planting, and as part of the project that we did we wanted to map all the woods that were created, and the trees that were planted. So, we copied... Adam: So, for the, for the queen? Kerrie: For the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. So actually, we took inspiration and sort of copied the Royal Record that had been done previously to mark a coronation. So, we actually have physically created and produced, published a Royal Record which is a huge red tome and that charts where all those trees are. And this is something that had already been done before the Queen's father. It's actually very heavy and so we have a copy at our office in Grantham, there is a copy in the British Library, and we gave a copy both to the Princess Royal and to the Queen.  Adam: There are lots of royal connections to trees and tree planting even beyond Queen Elizabeth. So, tell me a bit about that. Kerrie: That's right, yes. So, in the 1660s Charles II commissioned several avenues of sweet chestnut and elm in Greenwich Park and in 1651 he hid from pursuers inside an ancient oak during the English Civil War. and I think that's one of the reasons actually that you see so many pubs called the Royal Oak. Adam: Right okay because he hid in one? Kerrie: He hid in one yeah. Adam: Now you came... when did you see the hole in the ground? This was an open cast mine? Kerrie: Yes. Adam: You saw that? Kerrie: Yes, before any trees were here. So, I can't believe it's been several years since I've been here today, and it is now it's a wood! Adam: Yeah, there is no sign of that is there? Kerrie: No absolutely not, a complete transformation. Adam: It is amazing, isn't it? How quickly really that the natural world can recover. I mean, it needs a bit of help obviously and certainly in this circumstance. But no sign of what must have been really quite horrific bit of landscaping. Kerrie: Yeah. I think given how stark it felt at the beginning and when we first saw all trees grow in the ground here. It is genuinely remarkable for the transformation in a ten-year period of time! You can hear the birds, the trees are overhead, you know, we've seen butterflies, caterpillars... It really feels like nature has reclaimed this space it's really really exciting Adam: And when you start, I mean, look it's already done! It's a success! It looks fantastic, but when you started was this always a ‘this is gonna work' or at that stage did you think ‘this looks horrible, this might be a disaster, no one might come, no one might get on board with this project'? Kerrie: Well. I think we all had the vision, we all had hope. There are colleagues of mine that have been working at the Trust for longer than me who knew how this would look. I just didn't know that. This is one of the first projects I worked on so, to see it within ten years, the change that's the thing that I find you know really amazing! I thought I would have to wait much longer, and I'd be coming back with grandchildren to say look at this, but actually, here we are within a decade and it is transformed. Adam: Brilliant! Alright, well let's move on, let's find David again. Kerrie: Well, David on a previous visit has actually shown the Princess Royal around this wood. So, in terms of royal connections David has been a royal tour guide. Adam: Okay, so we have a living royal connection here? Kerrie: We do. Adam: Look here's a little bench, I might just sit here for a while. Brilliant, ah there's a dedication, what does it say? 'In honour of Sally Whittaker who believed in the beauty of wildlife and protecting it'. I have to say I always do like stopping at a bench and reading those dedications. Brief pause So, David, I'm not the only super important person you've taken around this woodland, am I? David: You're not the only super important person maybe, you are charming Adam! Adam: Ahhh thank you that's very sweet, very sweet laughs come on tell me about the even more important people you've taken around! David: So, yeah well, the most important person I guess would be Princess Anne, the Princess Royal, alongside Darren [Moorcroft] the CEO of the Woodland Trust. So, I was pretty nervous that morning, to be honest. The CEO, I'd never met him before and obviously a member of the royal family! But yeah no, I remember being nervous at the beginning, and then by the end of the day when I finally said goodbye to Princess Anne I was longing to spend a bit more time with her. She is incredibly charming, yes. Adam: Yeah. So, we come to a waymark, which? It's left, is it? David: Follow the blue and white arrows. Adam: Right so, if there are... there two different paths? Does blue and white mean anything or? David: Yeah. So, there's three waymarked trails around the site and we just happen to be happening on a little bit that's on two of those. So, there's the woodland walk which is the longest walk around the whole of the wood, and then there's the Royal Groves Walk. And then there's the lake walk as well Adam: Right so, explain a bit about where we're heading off to. You're taking me into the centre of the woods, it feels like? David: Yeah. So, we're continuing along the groves and eventually, we will get to a broad open vista, and you will be able to see most of the features of the site. Adam: So, we are already walking out to what looks like a less wooded area. David: Yes, we're kind of skirting the western edge of the site now and then... Adam: It's a big site, isn't it? how long will it take to walk over the whole thing do you think? How long are these paths? David: Like a good tour of every feature of the site here's looking at half a day really, probably, and that's with a bit of pace on. Adam: I've only got short legs laugh so I'd add a few hours. So, there's another one of these posts. Shall we just have a look? 1985 were through to, anyway so... David: Green woodpecker there, did you hear? Adam: Oh no wow! I missed out, I've been looking out for posts, I missed the green woodpecker. So, we're just coming out of a rather wooded area into – it suddenly opens up very dramatically – and look at that it's a very different view! So I can see a lovely wildflower meadow almost and then at the bottom a huge lake! A huge lake. So, this is where the old open cast mining just sunk down a bit and has since got naturally filled? David: Yeah. So, what you're looking at now is the epicentre of the open cast coal mine and obviously the wider landscape around it. So, yeah that's our lake and the end of the groves walk. So, you can just see the final three or four grove posts just heading off down the hill. And then this was an open area left to retain the view and then on the other side of the lake we've got a 5-hectare exclusion zone so there's no paths in that area. Just, no paths in the area, just to allow nature to completely have five hectares for resting birds et cetera. Adam: Let's go down because I think... David: We've got something else to show you. Adam: Sorry go on, rushing ahead, what is it? David: So, we got this piece of land sculpture that was created by an artist called Rosie Levitan and there are calls every now and again. We get somebody asking if we can put some kind of panel up to explain what it's all about, but the artist herself expressly asked that not to happen. So, I think she is more inclined to allow you to kind of figure it out for yourself or come to your own conclusions as to what it's all about. So, it was created with money from the Arts Council at the inception of the site. So, no money that could have gone into conservation went into creating this piece of art. But yeah, I'll leave you to... Adam: Sorry, this is it? This is it? David: This is it; I'll leave you to come to your own conclusions. Adam: So, when you said a piece of art, I thought you meant like a large statue of something out of wood, but actually, this is a sort of an earth tiered... almost like amphitheatre going downwards counts I think 5 tiers there. David: It's in a spiral so you can walk around the outside which takes a lot longer than you think! Adam: Laughs Yeah right I think I might take the direct route down, but to be honest, it seems like a brilliant place to put on a play! David: Yes! That's my thoughts as well, yeah I'd love to get a play here. Adam: Yeah! Have you ever gone down then done a soliloquy? David: Errr not, well, do you want me to? Adam: Yes, if you if you've got a piece ready laughing David: Unfortunately, I haven't. I mean I could maybe do a jaunty jig or something like that? Adam: Yes, well look, we're recording. David: Yes, well, no let's not! Adam: That's a shame laughing I think you probably come down when there are not many people around. So, if you ever do see a man in Woodland Trust clothing doing a jaunty jig at the bottom of this amphitheatre-like piece of art you know who it is and that he just wouldn't do it for us laughter very nice, very nice. Adam: So, you're gonna take me down to the lake now? David: Yeah, take you down to the lake. Adam: And it's there that we are going to meet one of your volunteers, is that right? David: That is right yep, a chap called Gerald. So, he's been volunteering with us on the site since the site was created and in various different roles Adam: And I've just gotta say it is beautiful walking down here because there are just huge numbers of buttercups aren't there? David: Yes, it is stunning, isn't it? Adam: It is stunning, it's like a sort of it's like a painting! It's like a painting, brilliant! David: This is our pond dipping platform. Adam: There's a cuckoo Bird song Adam: That's very good, so Gerald, sorry, we're distracting you. I can see you distracted by some swans coming over with their little babies. They're coming over to investigate you think? Gerald: I think they are yes! It's good to see it, I, they must be relatively young because a few weeks ago they were they weren't about so it's... Adam: Right. We'll let these swans investigate us as I chat to you so tell me. I'm told you do tonnes on this site. What was the local community's feeling when the trust took over this site and sort of explained what it wanted to do? Gerald: Generally, really good because you can imagine if you've got an open cast colliery on your doorstep a wood is a big improvement! Adam: Well, that's what I was going to say, because sometimes there is, sort of you know, some resistance or sort of misunderstanding about what is trying to happen. But here you go ‘surely this is going to be better for everybody'? Gerald: Yeah, so I think, overall, the mood was very good. There will be people who say yes but why don't you do this because this is better? We had some debates about whether we could put in some fruit trees, for example, and because we're in a sort of prime growing area in Leicestershire here. And there were debates about whether that was acceptable, whether they were native trees or not. But it was all good healthy discussion and it's interesting to see how the trees have grown and they have particularly grown well on this area here which was the open-cast. When you think – this all was disturbed ground that was put back – the trees have grown probably better here than they have in parts of what was the agricultural land. Adam: I have to stop because the swans have properly come up to us now. There they are! How involved do you get now, now it's well established what do you actually end doing? Do you come down here most weeks or? Gerald: It's a couple of times a month at least now. During the pandemic, it was sort of very limited of course, and well before that time, I used to do a monthly walk which was really... Adam: This is your guided monthly walk? Gerald: Yes guided, with a series of friends and colleagues. Adam: Do you have a favourite part of the wood? Gerald: Actually, probably near the bird hide just along from there. Adam: Why? Gerald: I don't know really. It's gotta mix, you got a mix with the water, you got the mix of the trees, a bit of the open meadowland here, and yes, the bird hide does add a bit of character to the place. I think we're lucky to have that there. Adam: I think David's waiting for me there. Shall we go over and have a chat with him? We've paused for a moment because we're just passing a black Poplar and a little plaque next to it saying it was planted by BBC Breakfast on 1 June 2012 in celebration of Her Majesty the Queen's Diamond Jubilee. Gerald: Yes, we have the two black poplars here. Adam: There's another one here. Was that planted by ITV for balance? Laughter Gerald: Oh no much more prestigious. Adam: Oh sorry, yes it was planted by Her Royal Highness the Princess Royal who is patron of the Jubilee Wood Project on the 1 of June 2012. And doing very nicely! Gerald: Yes, they are indeed! They've both grown quite a bit in the last year, I think. Adam: Very nice! So, what's the way to the bird hide? Is it round here? Gerald: Just go up to post on turn left. It's at the moment, hidden by a willow screen. It's a piece of willow art, although it's not particularly obvious Adam: You can see they've been bent over at the bottom haven't they to form a sort of willow fence. Gerald: If you were to look down on it from a drone it will be an outline of a skylark. It's a little bit overgrown and that's on our task list for next winter to prune that and try and weave in the lower bit. So, it's going to task our skills! Laughter Adam: We're going into the bird hunt now. We're in the bird hide. David, ironically having seen lots of birds the moment I get in here actually I can't – oh I think there is one over there – but do people, is this a good actual spot to be watching birds from? David: Yeah, yeah because it gives you that cover so the birds don't necessarily know you're here. It is quite a light bird hide though but it was created in conjunction with the Leicestershire Wildlife Trust, so they must have built a few bird hides, but yes. Adam: To be honest it's lovely weather today. But if it was raining a little bit this would be a fantastic place just to sit down for a while, wouldn't it? David: Yes, it would yeah. Just get out of the rain, I've done that a couple of times! Adam: Right, fantastic, alright well where are we going to next? David: So, there's just one last thing I would like to show you onsite which is just a short walk back up the hill. Adam: Okay, what is that? David: It is called the photographic plinth and so it's basically some encouragement for people to keep on visiting the site year after year. So, what we've got is we've got a plinth that you put your camera on and then a brick area that you supposedly stand on so you can get exactly the same photograph every year. You can visit the site and you can watch your family grow as the wood grows around you Adam: What a brilliant idea! What a brilliant idea. Okay, okay so David so there is a plinth. David: Yes, this is our photographic plinth. What it needs is updating, because obviously when this was made smartphones didn't exist and now you wouldn't really get a smartphone balanced on that! Adam: Yes, that's true David: It needs a little block bit putting on so you can rest a phone on it. Adam: So, it's not only the trees which have changed, it's the technology that it's referring to. I'll tell you what, I mean, obviously I'm going to have my photo taken aren't I? Can I give you my, I haven't got a camera, I do have my smartphone, so I'll go stand... I'll go stand here, and in a couple of years I'll come back and I'll have even less hair. Hold on a second – do I look better with my hat off or on? Pause Neither. I feel that was an undiplomatic pause I felt. David: What I was thinking is that I need to see both to answer correctly, that's why I was thinking. So, I'm gonna take it from the correct position. Click There you go Adam: I'm not confident that looked any good from the look on your face. I'm not going to look at it now I'll check it when I'm home. There is clearly a lot more to it than I've managed to explore today but what a wonderful treat, on a lovely, beautiful Monday, in this very special royal year! To come and celebrate that here! thank you very much David. David: that's quite alright Adam it's been a pleasure Footsteps Adam: Well, that was a great walk and thanks of course to everyone who arranged that. It's a fantastic place to visit especially in this Royal Jubilee year. If you know about these things, you can find it at grid reference SK 390132. The nearest train stations are Burton, Tamworth and Loughborough, although they're all a bit of a car journey, I have gotta say, from each of those stations. But if you're looking for a woodland perhaps nearer to you do have a look at the Woodland Trust website which has a special site to find a wood near you it is woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. I do recommend you do that until next time happy wandering. Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. Why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast. Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special, or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.

The idea of The Four Quadrants of Promo Sales (i.e. The Four Mores) is to recognize that if you're just focusing on one thing -- bringing in more clients -- you are very likely missing out on 75% of the available profits that are going to come from these other three quadrants. The Four Mores David: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. Today, co-host Jay McFarland and I will be talking about The Four Mores: More clients, more money, more margin, more often. Great to see you again, Jay. Jay: Yeah, it's good to be here. And I feel like there's one more more, if you can get all of those. More happiness and more peace of mind, right? David: Yeah. That's true. There are more than four mores. Jay: Yes. Quadrant #1: More Clients David: I think that what we're thinking of here is that these four mores are designed to increase the value of our clients and increase the value of our businesses. A lot of times when people are thinking in terms of growing their sales and profits, they think in terms of the first more. They think in terms of more clients. “I need to get more clients, “I need to get more business.” And so many business owners focus their time and attention exclusively on bringing in more customers. And sometimes what ends up happening is they forget about the ones that they have. And they start to lose track of the fact that they could be drifting off. Anyone who's been in business for any length of time has heard the old adage that it costs a whole lot more to bring in a new customer than it does to resell an existing customer or to satisfy an existing customer. Stop Missing Out But it's easy to lose sight of. And so the idea of The Four Mores is to recognize that if you're just focusing on one thing -- bringing in more clients -- you are very likely missing out on 75% of the available profits that are going to come from these other three quadrants. Jay: Wow. That's very good. And kind of like we talked about last time, moving people into that center zone, that loyalty zone. Right? David: Yes. Jay: And then, if they're reoccurring, I mean it just makes life so much better. If you have a loyal base and then you're bringing in more clients, to me it's just the perfect pattern, right? David: Yeah, it does. So now we've got sort of conflicting visual images, however. Because last time we were talking about a target. Now we're talking about quadrants, but it's all designed to accomplish the same thing. Which is to get more of our clients buying from us more often. Spending more money with us at higher profit margins so that we can continue to grow the business, service those people. And without the profit part of it, you're dead in the water. I mean, you cannot continue to operate without that. So each of these four components is absolutely critical to being able to grow the business the way that we want to do it. What About Quality of Life? Jay: Yeah. A good, healthy business that is making money, is growing, has loyal customers. And hopefully giving you peace of mind and maybe some quality of life. Right? David: Exactly. Yeah. Quality of life is a nice bonus for some people . It should be a requirement, but it's not always a requirement. Sometimes we sacrifice quality of life just to reach our financial goals. Sometimes, particularly in the early stages of a business. But eventually, yeah, we learn. But one of the things about this topic that I think is so important is that when you look at each of these four elements and you focus on them and you focus on improving them, it does improve your quality of life. Because now you're not investing a lot of time on aspects of the business that are less important. Because if you think about the idea of bringing more clients through the door, obviously that's an important consideration. When you think of the idea of when I talk about more clients, more money, more margin, more often. More clients,

Episode 16: David Massey Salesforce Career Conversation with ROD. David talks about how he found his way into Salesforce. Originally a Salesperson at a travel company, he was one of the unlucky ones having to figure out a new career due to the impact of covid.  In less than two years, David has become a Salesforce Certified Consultant and now helps others to obtain their own certs. Lee Durrant: Hello, it's Lee Durrant here, with another episode of RODcast. We dive into people's Salesforce careers to find you little nuggets of inspiration that might help you in your Salesforce career. I'm pleased to say that joining me today is Dave Massey, who is-- I've lost count, but multiple certified Salesforce consultant and author of davejmassey.com, a website designed to help you learn Salesforce.   Hi, Dave, have I introduced you right there, mate? Is it author? Are we going to go with that?  David Massey: Yes, we'll go with author and thanks for having me, Lee. It's a pleasure to speak to you.  Lee: No, you too. We haven't spoken before, which, frankly for me, is a bit rare on this podcast because I've played it safe. I normally just talk to people that I know, but I couldn't help, like probably a lot of people in the Salesforce ecosystem, couldn't help noticing what you're up to and thought, from a selfish point of view, it'd be great to get you on our podcast and talk about your relatively short journey so far in Salesforce and the very quick rise to being a little bit of an influencer.  If you don't mind, perhaps giving us a very quick overview of who you are, then we can talk about, I guess, what's happened to you in the last few years if that's all right?  David: Yes, that's perfect. Where I am now is I'm an eight-time certified Salesforce consultant, working for a company called ThirdEye Consulting based out of London. Literally, two years and a week ago, I was actually a travel agent. It was only the 30th of March, I actually discovered Salesforce 2020, so the 30th of March 2020 was the first time I saw it. Prior to that, I'd worked in sales and service for a good 10, 15 years, selling everything you can think of from cars, to windows, to vacuum cleaners, to TVs, broadband, the works. Sold all of it and I found myself working in the travel industry.  I've been really successful. I'd been in it again, for about seven years at that point. I was doing really well with my sales team and when I say travel agents, technically, it's like a tour operator. Everything was custom built, everything was tailor-made, flights, hotels, transfers, trips, seven or eight week holidays, so something quite bespoke.  Again, was doing really, really well. Then COVID hit and as COVID hit, as most people know, in the travel industry, it is essentially minimum wage and then you earn all your money through commission. That's just the nature of the beast in sales, as you know. Yes, I walked into the office after COVID had hit and was just faced with the fact that I'd lost 50% of my commission overnight and all the other commission was going into a holding pot.  It couldn't really be touched, because it needed to be there to obviously keep everything going. It was a bit of a shock to walk into that. I'm married, I've got two kids, we've got a house, a mortgage, I've got a big dog that eats more than me. It was one of them where I had to look around and think, "Right, what am I going to do?"   Lee: You were made redundant, were you? Or what happened?  David: No, I wasn't made redundant. Literally, I just had to work full time through it, working from home because again, particular with the travel industries, it wasn't a case of, "Oh, right. Well, COVID shut down, lockdown, nobody does anything." Because we still had to manage all the flights, the hotels. Again, this is a bit people often didn't realize is we were working behind the scenes for minimum wage, working 10, 12 hour days because we're going through time zones to...

Sean: And I know you mentioned that it took three years for you to turn over everything and for you to make sure that you're leaving on a good note, what hinted you that it's high time to do this now and then on the third year, what made you realize that? Okay, you can't wait any longer - you just have to do this? David: Yes. So I would say that it was actually in the running you know, I was planning to do this for quite some time. And one of the things that I advocate to young people in their career, which I practiced, was observation and really studying the path ahead of you and determining whether that's a path that you want. As I mentioned earlier, you know, I wrote a book and I have a chapter in my book where I talk about this notion, of mapping the salt mine when you first join an organization. And it always surprised me how many people join a company, start a career, and don't really spend a lot of time understanding what their boss does or even their bosses boss does. And the reason why that is really shocking to me, is that if you're going to invest years, maybe potentially tens of years of your life in a company, don't you want to know where the career ends up? Like, don't you want to know what you're fighting for? David: And so in my early thirties I started to plan out my own path and my career, and I decided that what I was going to do was I was going to squirrel away enough money so that by the time I hit 40, I would have the option to walk away or have the option to spend more time with my family if I wanted. And so my thirties were really all about maximizing my earnings potential and salting away as much savings as I could so that by the time I turned 40, I would be able to say, you know, this is not for me anymore and I want to do something else. David: And so when I did turn 40, I finally hit the number that I was seeking in my bank account. I finally hit that hurdle rate that I needed to be able to walk away. And at that point, there were really no excuses for myself. It was like, okay, you got to that number. You saved enough money. You live a modest lifestyle. If you're going to stick around and potentially become that cliche, who is not around for their kids. Then you have nobody to blame but yourself. So at that point, I decided, you know what, I think it's really time for me to pursue something else in the second half of my life. And family is going to come, number one, and then entrepreneurship is going to come number two. David: It took a full three years before we could find a replacement and I felt that the franchise was in good hands. But I have no regrets. I was able to leave on my own terms as well as leave on good terms with the firm. And I think that bears dividends throughout your career. And so I always advocate to people, if you're going to leave your company, try to leave on good terms because the world is a very small place and you never know when your past will cross again with the people that you worked with. And you never know when you'll need a good recommendation or suggestion on something - related to your career down the road. - - - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack

About DavidDavid is an AWS expert who likes to design and build scalable solutions that are fully automated and take care of themselves. Now he is focusing on selling his own products on the AWS Marketplace.Links: 0x4447: https://0x4447.com/ Products page: https://products.0x4447.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Today's episode is brought to you in part by our friends at MinIO the high-performance Kubernetes native object store that's built for the multi-cloud, creating a consistent data storage layer for your public cloud instances, your private cloud instances, and even your edge instances, depending upon what the heck you're defining those as, which depends probably on where you work. It's getting that unified is one of the greatest challenges facing developers and architects today. It requires S3 compatibility, enterprise-grade security and resiliency, the speed to run any workload, and the footprint to run anywhere, and that's exactly what MinIO offers. With superb read speeds in excess of 360 gigs and 100 megabyte binary that doesn't eat all the data you've gotten on the system, it's exactly what you've been looking for. Check it out today at min.io/download, and see for yourself. That's min.io/download, and be sure to tell them that I sent you.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Sysdig. Sysdig is the solution for securing DevOps. They have a blog post that went up recently about how an insecure AWS Lambda function could be used as a pivot point to get access into your environment. They've also gone deep in-depth with a bunch of other approaches to how DevOps and security are inextricably linked. To learn more, visit sysdig.com and tell them I sent you. That's S-Y-S-D-I-G dot com. My thanks to them for their continued support of this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Today's promoted episode is brought to us by 0x4447. And my guest today is David Gatti, their CEO. David, thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.David: Thank you for getting me on the show.Corey: One of the things that I find fascinating about what you do and where you come from is that for the last five years, you've been running an independent company that I would classify based upon our conversations as pretty close to a consultancy. However, you've gone down the path that I didn't when I set up my own consultancy, and started actually selling software—not just software: Solutions—as a packaged thing that you can wind up doling out to various customers, whereas I just went with the very high touch approach of, “Oh, let me come in and have a whole series of conversations with people.” Your scale is a heck of a lot more. So, do you view yourself these days as a software company, as a consultancy, or something else entirely?David: So, right now, I did put aside the consultancy because yeah, one thing that I realized, it's possible but it's very hard to scale, it's also hard to find people at the same level. So yeah, the scalability of the business is quite hard, whereas with software sold on the AWS Marketplace, that is much easier to scale than what I was doing before, and that's why I decided to take a break from consulting and focusing one hundred percent on the products that I sell on the AWS Marketplace to see how this goes and how it actually works, and can a business be built around it.Corey: The common wisdom that I've encountered is that consulting, especially when you're doing it yourself, is one of those things that is terrific when you find yourself in the position that I originally did of your employer showing up and, “Knock, knock,” “Who's there?” “Not you anymore. Get out.” And there's a somewhat, in my case, limited runway as far as how long I've got before I have to go find another job. With consulting, you can effectively go out and start talking to people, and provided that you can land a project, it starts throwing off revenue, basically immediately, whereas building software, building packages, things that you end up selling to people, it's almost like a real estate business on some level, where you have to take a lot of investment up front to wind up building the thing, where—because no one is, generally speaking, going to pay you spec work to go ahead and build something for 18 months and come back and hope that it works.David: Right.Corey: I also bias towards the services because I'm bad at writing code. You, on the other hand, write things that seem to actually work, which is another refreshing difference.David: Yes. So, I did that, but now I have a guy that is just a Linux expert. So, you were saying that there is a high investment in the beginning, but what actually—in my case what happened, I've been selling these products for the past three years basically as a hobby. So, when I was doing AWS consulting, I was seeing, like, a company has a problem, a repeating problem, so I was just creating a product, putting it on the Marketplace, and then sending it to them. So basically, they had a situation where I can manage those projects to update when there's a need to do an update, and there was always a standardization behind that, right?So, if they had, you know, five SFTP servers, and there was a need to make an update, I was making the update on my image, putting it on the Marketplace, and then updating all those servers in one go in a much quicker fashion then managing them one by one, right? And so I had this thing for three years. So now, when I started doing this full-time, I have a little bit of a leap on what's going on. So, I already had a bunch of clients that are using their products, so that actually helped me not to have to wait three years before I saw any revenue coming in.Corey: I always thought that the challenge behind building something like this was that well, you needed to actually be conversant in a programming language; that was the thing that you needed to package and build these things. But I take a look at what you have on the AWS Marketplace—and I will throw a link to this in the [show notes 00:04:39]—but you offer right now four different offerings: A Rsyslog server, a Samba server, VPN server, and an SFTP server, and every one of those four things, back in my DevOps days, I built and implemented on AWS, generally either from scratch or from something in the Marketplace—and I'll get to that in a bit—that didn't really meet a variety of needs. And every single time I built these things, it drove me up a wall because I had to do this without, like, solving a global problem locally, myself, to meet some pile of needs, then I had to worry about the maintenance of the thing, making sure that the care and feeding continued to work. And it just wasn't—it didn't work for me in the way that I wanted it to. It never occurred to me that I really could have just solved this whole thing once, [unintelligible 00:05:28] it on the Marketplace, and then just gone and grabbed the thing.David: Exactly. So, that was my exact thinking here. Especially when your work with the client, this [unintelligible 00:05:38] was also great [idea 00:05:39] because when you work with clients, they want to do things as fast as possible, right? So, can they say, “I need an SFTP server?” Of course, it takes, you know, half a day to set up something, but then they scream at you and say, like, “Hey, do the next thing. Do the next thing. Do the next thing.” And you never end up configuring the server that you're making a reliable way, sometimes you misconfigure it because, oh I forgot this option, and now everybody on the internet can access the server itself.Corey: Wait, screw up a server config? That doesn't sound like something I would do.David: Well, of course not.Corey: Yeah, no one [unintelligible 00:06:08] they're going to until oops.David: Yes. You're amazing and you're perfect, of course, but I'm not. And I was seeing, like, oh, you know, in the middle of the night, oh, I forgot this option. I forgot this. I forgot that.And so there was never a, basically, one place when the configuration just correct, right? And that was something that sparked my idea when I realized the Marketplace exists. It's like, oh, wait a moment, I can spend few weeks to do it, right, put it there and never worry about it again. And so if when a client says like, “Hey, I need this,” I can deploy it literally, in less than one minute. You have any of those products that actually I'm selling up and running, right?And of course, the VPN is going to be a little bit slower because it needs to generate all the certificates at the beginning, but for example, the SFTP one is just poof, you're deployment with our CloudFormation file, provide username and password, and you're up and running. And I see, for example, this thing with clients, which sometimes it's funny, when there's two clients that they use the SFTP server only once a day for one hour. So, every day is like one new instance created, then one instance removed, and one instance created and one instance removed. And so it keeps on going like that.Corey: The thing that always drove me nuts about building these things out was first I had to go and find something on those rare occasions where I used the Marketplace. Again, I wasn't really working in the same modern Marketplace that we think of today when we talk about the AWS Marketplace. It was very early on, the only way that it would deliver software was via, “Here's an AMI, grab the thing, and go ahead and deploy it, and it's going to have an additional hourly cost on. It the end.” And more or less the whole Henry Ford approach of, “Oh, you can get it in any color you want, as long as it's black.”So, back in those days, I would spin up an OpenVPN server—and I did this at several companies—I would go and find the thing on the Marketplace from I think it was the OpenVPN company behind the project. Great, I grabbed the thing, it had no additional cost through the Marketplace. I then had to go and get a custom license file from the vendor themselves, load the thing in, then start provisioning users. And this had no integration that I could discern with anything else we had going on, so all of this stuff was built through the web config on this thing, there was no facility for backing the thing up—certificate, material, et cetera, et cetera—so if something happened to that instance or that image, or we had to go through a DR exercise, well, time to reprovision everyone by hand again. And it was annoying because the money didn't matter. At a company scale, it really doesn't for something like this unless you're into the usurious ranges. It does not matter.It's the, I want to manage this simply and effectively in a way that makes sense, and in many cases in a way that is congruent with our on-prem environment. So, “Oh, there's a custom AWS service that offers something kind of like this. Use that instead.” It's, yeah, I don't like the idea, personally, of having to use a higher-level managed service that I'm very often going to need the most, right when things are getting wonky during an outage scenario. I want something that I understand and can work with.And I've always liked, even if I have all the latest whiz-bang accesses into an environment, in production environments, I spin up something like this anyway, just to give myself a backdoor in the event that everything else breaks. And I really like how you've structured your VPN server as far as backing up its config, sharing its configs, you can scale it to more than one instance—what a ridiculous concept that is—and so on and so forth.David: So, it's not more than one—I mean, yes, you can deploy to more than one time, but the thing that—because again, when you were saying, like, companies don't care about the cost, right? It's more about how annoying it is to use and set up, right? And so I'm one of those people that when I, for example, see things like I've been playing with servers since the '90s, right, and I was keeping rebuilding and recreating everything every single time from scratch.And, yeah, it was always painful. It took always a lot of time. For example, our server took six months to set up the right way. And also the pricing [unintelligible 00:10:11] the competition has is quite aggravating, I will say. Like, it's very hard to scale above a certain point, especially for the midsize companies.And the goal with the Marketplace is also, like, make it as simple as possible. Because AWS itself doesn't make it easy to be on the Marketplace, and it's almost, like, crazy how hard it is. So, for anybody who will like to—who might think, like, “Oh, I would like to try this AWS Marketplace thing,” I would say should do it, but be super patient. You cannot rush it because it's going to take you on average six months to understand how even the process of uploading anything and updating it and managing it is going to take it because their website that they've built has nothing to do with the console and it's a completely custom solution that is very clunky and still very old-fashioned, how you have to manage it.Corey: Tell me more about that. I've never gone through the process of putting something up on the Marketplace. To my understanding, you need to be an AWS partner in order to use the Marketplace, correct?David: No you don't have to.Corey: Okay.David: No. Thankfully not. I hope it's not going to do this thing is not going to change. [crosstalk 00:11:20]—Corey: Yeah. I wound up manifesting it into existence by saying that. Yeah. If you're on the Marketplace team listening to this, don't do that, please. I really don't want to get yelled at and have made things worse for people.David: Don't give them ideas. [laugh]. Okay?Corey: Exactly.David: No, it's anybody can do it. But yeah, how to add a new product. So, the process is you have to build an AMI first. And then you have to submit the AMI to AWS by first creating a special AMI role—sorry, I always get confused AMI, [IAM 00:11:51], I never—IAM is users. Okay.Corey: I think we have a few more acronyms that use most of the same letters. I think that's the right answer here.David: [laugh]. So, either IAM or AMI, whichever is responsible for roles, you have to create a special role to give AWS access to your AMI. Then you submit the image to AWS providing the role that they have to use. They scan it and they do simple checks to make sure that you don't for example, have SSH enabled with regular users, do some regular scanning to make sure that you're not using an image from ten years ago, right, of Linux. And once you pass that, you are able to actually create your first product.Then you have to write your title, description provide, for example, the ports that needs to be open, the URLs to separate resources, the pricing page, which takes on average one hour to fill up because let's say that you have 20 instances that you support, and for every instance, you have to write the price for that instance per one hour. Then if you want to have a discount of let's say 20%—because you can set it by the hour, or someone can pay you for the full year. And so for the full year, you might have a discount. So, you have to have also the price per hour discounted by the amount of percentage that you want, and then you have to repeat it 40 times. Because there is no way to upload that.Corey: That feels like the internal AWS billing system in some respects. “Well, if it's good enough for us it good enough for our customers.” And—David: [laugh]. Exactly.Corey: —now, I have empathy for the folks in the billing system internally; their job is very hard, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to wind up exposing those sharp edges to folks who are, you know, paying customers of these things.David: Right. And it'd be a simple thing like being able to import the CSV file with just two columns and that would be perfect. But no, you have to do it by hand. There is no other way. So hopefully—Corey: Or someone has to. Welcome to the crappiest internship of your life.David: Exactly.Corey: It feels like bringing people into data entry for stuff like that is cheating.David: Exactly. So, you do that and then I don't remember exactly what the other steps are to a new creating a completely new product because I did that three years ago, and so now, I'm been just updating those products, but yeah, then they have to review your submission, and once everything is okay, then your product is on the Marketplace, and you can—are already accept everything. If you, for example, want to have the image also available in some specific regions that are not the default ones, you have to enable this by hand. I don't remember anymore how, but it's not obvious.Corey: And you have to keep redoing this every time they launch a new region as well, I would imagine.David: So, they say that you can have enabled the option to automatically add it, but it still won't work. Well, it will work, but… let's say, so in my case, I'm using CloudFormation. I gave a complimentary CloudFormation file where if you want to deploy my product, you go to the documentation page, you click the orange button, and you basically provide the parameters, and you click next, next, next and the product is deployed within a few minutes.And in that CloudFormation file, I have a map of every AMI in every region. Okay? So, if they add a new region and they automatically add the AMI there, then if you don't get notified that there is a new region, you don't know that you have to update the CloudFormation file, and then someone might say, like, “Hey, David, why this product is not deployed in this region.” It's like, “Oops. I didn't know that they have to update the CloudFormation file with a new region.” Right?Corey: Yeah, I'm a big believer in ClickOps, the idea of doing things in the console, but everything you're talking about sounds like a fraught enough process that I'm guessing you have some form of automation that helps you with a lot of this.David: Yeah. So, I hate repeating anything more than once, so everything in my book is automated as much as possible. The documentation, for example, how I structure it, there is a section that tells you how to deploy it by just using CloudFormation file and clicking next, next, next, next until you have it. And then there's also the option if you want to deploy manually because you don't trust what the CloudFormation file is doing, right? Of course, you can see the source file if you wanted to, but sometimes people are a little bit wary about big CloudFormation files.In any case, I have this option, but they have this option as a separate thing. So, AWS has an option where you could add a CloudFormation file that goes with your product. The problem is to be able to submit a CloudFormation file natively so they will take care of it requires you to get Microsoft Office 365. Because they give you an Excel file that has, I think, a few thousand columns. And for example, numbers under [unintelligible 00:16:40], when you export, you save the final—or sorry, you export it, it will cut around 500 columns. So, you miss, like, two-thirds of what AWS will likely to send you. And why they do that, I have no idea. I don't know if they still do it after three years, but when I was doing it, they told me like, “Hey, this is the file. Fill it by hand.”Corey: About that time period, that was exactly how they did large-scale corporate discounts on custom contracts is that they would edit the AWS bill in Excel, or if not, the next closest thing to it because there were periodically errors that looked an awful lot like someone typo-ing something by hand.David: What—Corey: Computers are generally bad doing that, and it took an extra couple of weeks to get those bills, which is right around the speed of human.David: Wow.Corey: I see none of those problems anymore, which tells me, that's right, someone finally upgraded off of Microsoft Excel to the new level. Probably Airtable.David: [laugh]. Maybe. So, I don't know if that process is still there, but what they did, like, then I realized, oh, wait a moment, I can just have a CloudFormation file in S3 bucket publicly available and just use that instead of going through that process. Because I didn't want to pay on a yearly basis for a product that I'm going to use literally once a year. That didn't make any sense to me and so I decided I'm going to do it this way. That's why, yeah, if they add on a new region, I have to go out and update my own CloudFormation file because I maintain that myself, whereas they would maintain it for me, I guess.Corey: The way that I see all of the nuts and bolts of the engineering parts of getting all these things up and running on the Marketplace, it feels like it is finicky; it is sharp edges that AWS is basically known for in many respects, but without the impetus of making that meaningfully better, just because there's such an overriding business reason, that—it's not like there's a good competitor for something like this. So, if you want to sell things to AWS people in most frictionless way possible, it reflects on the AWS bill, causes discounting, counts for their spend commitments, and the rest, it's really the AWS Marketplace is the only game in town for a lot of that.David: Right. So, I don't know if they don't do it because they don't have enough competition or pressure because to me when I first started doing this AWS Marketplace, it felt to me like more Amazon than AWS, right? It feels more like an Amazon team was behind it and not people from AWS itself. It felt like completely something different. Not to mention, yeah, the console that they provide is something completely custom that has nothing to do with the typical AWS console.Corey: I've heard stories about the underpants store division's seller tools as well; very similar to the experience you're describing.David: Mmm. And also the support is different. So, it's not connected to the AWS console one. The good thing about it, it's free, but it's also only by email. And so yeah, it's a very weird, clunky situation where I mean, I'm someone that, I guess, loves the pain of AWS. [laugh].I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But when I started, I decided, you know what, I'm going to figure it out, and once I do, I'm going to feel happy that I was able to. Maybe that's their goal: It's to give us purpose in life. So, maybe that's the goal of AWS. I don't know.Corey: There are times I really wonder about that where it feels like it could be so much more than it is, but it's not. And, again, my experience with it is very similar to what you've described, where it's buying an AMI, the end. But now they're talking about selling SaaS subscriptions on it, they're talking about selling professional services—in some cases—on it. And effectively, it almost feels like it's trying to become the Marketplace through which all IT transacting starts to happen. And the tailwind that sort of is giving energy to a lot of those efforts is, if you have a multimillion-dollar spend commitment with AWS in return for discounting, you have to make sure you spend enough within the timeframe, 50% of all spend on the AWS Marketplace counts toward that.Now, other cloud providers, it's 100% of spend, but you know, AWS is nothing if not very tight with the dollar. So okay, fine, whatever. There's a reason for companies to go down that path. Talk to me a little bit about the business aspect of it because for me, it seems like the clear win, in the absence of anything else is—especially at larger companies—they already have a business relationship with AWS. The value to someone selling software on the Marketplace feels like it would be, first and foremost, an end-run around companies procurement departments.It's just oh, someone has to click a button and they're up and running, as opposed to going through the entire onboarding and contracting and all the rest, manual way. Other than the technical challenges of getting things up and running on it, how have you found that it works as far as getting in front of additional customers, as far as driving adoption? You could theoretically have—I imagine—have not gone down the Marketplace route at all and just sold this directly on your website, click here to buy a license file the way that a lot of stuff I used to as well, and would have cut out a lot of the painful building an AMI and putting it into the Marketplace story. What's the value to being in the Marketplace?David: Yeah, so in the beginning, the value was basically that it's on the Marketplace, as I was saying, I was using it with pre-existing clients, so it was easy for me because I knew AWS images were there. So, it was easy to just click my own CloudFormation file and tell the client after one minute, “Hey, it's up and running. You have a bunch of profiles for your VPN. Enjoy and have fun.” Right?That experience, once you have it on the Marketplace, it's nice because it just works. And you don't have to do much work. Then I realized that AWS, in the search bar in the console, when you were typing, for example, you know, you type EC2, S3, CloudFormation, to find the service, what they were doing originally is when you were typing in the search bar, you were getting the services of AWS, and then when there was nothing left, they were showing the results of the Marketplace, which was basically amazing because you have primetime in the console with your product, you had to do zero marketing, and you get every week, took new clients that are using our product. And the trend was growing pretty, pretty well.And that was a proposition that is just amazing. Like, nobody has that because you can have Fortune 500 companies using our product without doing anything. It just—is it simple to deploy? Yes. Does it provide value? Is the price great? And people were just using them. Fast forward now; what happened is AWS changed the console. And instead of showing, after the services, the Marketplace, like, now they show the sub-section of the services, they show the results from the blog, the articles, videos, whatever, I don't even know what they've put there—Corey: Originally, you could search my name in that search bar, and it would pop up a profile of me they did for re:Inforce in the security blog.David: [laugh]. There you go.Corey: “Meet Corey Quinn. A ‘cloud economist'—scare quotes and all—who does not work here. And it was glorious. Now, they've changed the algorithm so it pops up. “Oh, you want Corey Quinn, you must mean IoT Core.” So, that blog post is still there, but it's below the fold because of course they give precedence to a service that they have that nobody uses or understands. Because, Amazon.David: Yeah, of course. And so that was awful because suddenly I realized that, oh, I'm getting less and less new clients because you know, after six months, one year, people are shutting off their things because they're finished using them, and I will not getting new ones. But at that time, I was doing [AWS 00:24:06] consulting, so it's like, oh, maybe it was a glitch in the Matrix, whatever. I got lucky.But then after a few months, I realized, wait a moment. When I was working in AWS, I realized that the console results changed, and I went like, oh, that's what happened and that's why I'm getting less clients, right? So, in the beginning, that was a great thing and that's why I'm actually paying you to promote my business and my products because now there is no way to put the products in front of customers because AWS took it away. And so that's why I decided to actually go full-force on this to make sure that I promote as much as possible because that one cool feature that AWS was providing, they took it away for whatever reason because blog posts are more important than their partners, [laugh] I guess.Corey: Well, it depends on the partner and the tier of partner, and it feels like it's a matter—to be clear, full disclosure: I am not an AWS partner; I'm not partnered with any vendor in this space, for either real or perceived conflict of interest issues, so I don't have a particular horse in the race. But back when there were a small number of partners, the network really worked. Now, there are tens of thousands of partners, and well, what winds up being surfaced? Customers, as a result seem to be caring less about various partner statuses, unless they're trying to check a box on some contractual requirement. Instead, they just want the problem solved, and it's becoming increasingly challenging to differentiate just by the nature of how this works.I don't believe, in 2022, that you could build almost anything, and put it on the AWS Marketplace in isolation and expect that to suddenly drive adoption by the fact that you're there. It feels, to me, at least on the other side of the fence, that the Marketplace experience is all about, you go there and you look for the name of the thing that you already know that you want because you've heard about it from other means, and then you just click it and you go, and that's the end of it. It's a procurement story; it's not a discoverability story.David: Right. And yeah, so that's sort of a bit disappointing, and I even made a post on Reddit about it to just bring this up to AWS itself to say, like, “Hey, UI change is pretty severe.” Because I mean, they get a percentage of every hour, the products are running, so basically they shoot themselves in the foot by making less money because now they're getting less products are being shown to potential customers. So, yeah, that's a disappointing thing.When it comes to also you ask what other way there is to show their products to potential customers, so there is an option where AWS can help you out. And when I talked to them, I think last year, they said that if you reach $2 million in sales a year, then they will basically show you around other potential customers, right? Which is a little bit disappointing because especially if you're a small company like mine, it's pretty hard to get to that $2 million in a meaningful time. And if once you reach that point, you might go like, “Hmm, how is this going to help me if you now show me in front of other people?” So yeah.And of course, I understand them in a sense that if they show a product from the Marketplace to a big company and the product turns out to be of poor quality, then of course the client is going to tell AWS like, “Why you're showing us something that just doesn't do its job?” Right? But it'd be nice to have a [unintelligible 00:27:24] when you say, “Okay, you're starting out. After a few years, so we can show you to this midsize clients.” You don't have to go to, immediately, Fortune 500 companies. That doesn't make any sense, right?Corey: And I still—even the companies that are at that level, I've talked to them about how they've grown their business, and not a single one has ever credited anything AWS did to help them grow. Other than, “Well, they threw re:Invent, so we spent extortionate piles of money and set up a booth there, and the fact that we were allowed in the building to talk to people was helpful, I guess.” But it's all through their own works on this, I'm not convinced, to be very direct with you, that AWS knows how to effectively drive sales and adoption of things on their own Marketplace. That is an increasing source of concern.David: Right. And then there's no plan of what to do with a company that is starting on the Marketplace, once it's a few—or it's already a few years and established in the Marketplace and a big one. Yeah, they don't have any way to go about it, which is a bit disappointing. But again, I like a challenge. I like the misery of AWS, so I'm just doing it. [laugh].Corey: No, I hear you. Would you recommend other people in your position explore selling on the Marketplace, given the challenges and advantages both that you've experienced?David: So, if you were to start from scratch, it will take you, like, three years—maybe not three years, but it's not something that should be the primary revenue source of the business if you want to go into the AWS Marketplace situation because you have to have enough capital to do enough marketing to see if you can get in front of people. If you already do some consulting like me, where I did some stuff on the side, and then realized, oh, people are using it, people like it, they get some feedback, the want new features, like, “Oh, maybe I can start growing this bigger and bigger, right?” It's not something that's going to happen immediately. And especially the updating process that happens, it can get quite stressful because when you make an update—so you have a version of a product that's working and running, right? Now, you make an update and you have to spend at least a week or even sometimes two weeks to test that out to make sure that you didn't miss anything because you don't want people to update something and it stops working right?Corey: You can't break customer experiences on these things.David: Yeah. No.Corey: It becomes a nightmare.David: Because especially you don't know if, literally, a Fortune 500 company is using your product or, like, a tiny company that has only ten employees, right?Corey: Your update broke the file server with a VPN means it's unlikely that they're going to come back anytime soon, too.David: Right.Corey: You're also depending on AWS, in some respects, to steward the relationship because you're you don't have direct contact with your buyers.David: No. So, that's important thing. They don't give you access to the contacts; they give you access to the company information. So, I actually do have Fortune 500 companies using my products, but yeah, there's no way to get in touch with them. The only thing that you get is the company name, the address, the domain that they used to create an email. So, at least you can get a sense of, like, who this company is.But yeah, there is no way to get in touch if there is a problem. So, the only way that you can notify the customer that there's a new update is when you make an update, there is a text area that you can say what's new, what did you change, right? And that's the only communication that you get with the client. So if, for example, you do a big mistake, [laugh], you basically have that just little text box, and hopefully, someone reads it. But you know, AWS is known for sending 20 emails a week for every account that you open. Good luck getting through that noise.Corey: Hope that you don't miss the important ones as you go through. No—David: Exactly.Corey: —I hear you. These are problems that I think are on AWS's plate to solve. Hopefully, someone over there is listening to this and will at least reach out with a bit of a better story. I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. We'll include links, of course, to this in the [show notes 00:31:09]. Where else can people find you?David: They can find us basically on the product page of what we sell. So, we have products.0x4447.com/. That's where, basically, we keep all our products. We keep updating the page to provide more information about those products, how to get in touch with us, we provide training, demos, anything that you want. It's very easy to get in touch with us instead of—sometimes when it comes to AWS. So yeah, we are out there, pretty easy to find us. The domain—the company name is so unique that you either get our website or—Corey: Easy to find on Google.David: Yeah, so we're basically—the hex editor. And that's basically it. [laugh].Corey: Excellent. Well, we'll definitely put links to that in the show [notes 00:31:50]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.David: Thank you very much.Corey: David Gatti, CEO of 0x4447. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment that makes sure to mention exactly how long you've been working on the AWS Marketplace team.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Episode Notes:This episode's guest is David Rennie, the Beijing bureau chief for The Economist and author of the weekly Chaguan column. Our topic is online discourse, nationalism, the intensifying contest for global discourse power and US-China relations.Excerpts:I spoke to some very serious NGO people who've been in China a long time, Chinese and foreigners who said that this was the worst time for NGOs since 1989, and the kind of mentions of espionage and national security was a very serious thing. So then I had to make a decision, was I going to try and speak to someone like Sai Lei. Clearly he is an extremely aggressive nationalist, some would call him a troll and there are risks involved in talking to someone like him. But I felt, I'm one of the few English language media still in China, if I'm going to add value, I need to speak to these people.I had a very interesting conversation with a CGTN commentator…He said, I can't tell you how many Western diplomats, or Western journalists they whine. And they moan. And they say, how aggressive China is now and how upset all this Wolf warrior stuff is and how China is doing itself damage. And he goes, we're not, it's working. You in the Western media, used to routinely say that the national people's Congress was a rubber stamp parliament. And because we went after you again and again, you see news organizations no longer as quick to use that. Because we went after you calling us a dictatorship, you're now slower to use that term because we went after you about human rights and how it has different meanings in different countries. We think it's having an effect…One of the things I think is a value of being here is you have these conversations where the fact that we in the West think that China is inevitably making a mistake by being much more aggressive. I don't think that's how a big part of the machine here sees it. I think they think it worked….To simplify and exaggerate a bit, I think that China, and this is not just a guess, this is based on off the record conversations with some pretty senior Chinese figures, they believe that the Western world, but in particular, the United States is too ignorant and unimaginative and Western centric, and probably too racist to understand that China is going to succeed, that China is winning and that the West is in really decadent decline…I think that what they believe they are doing is delivering an educational dose of pain and I'm quoting a Chinese official with the word pain. And it is to shock us because we are too mule headed and thick to understand that China is winning and we are losing. And so they're going to keep delivering educational doses of pain until we get it…The fundamental message and I'm quoting a smart friend of mine in Beijing here is China's rise is inevitable. Resistance is futile…And if you accommodate us, we'll make it worth your while. It's the key message. And they think that some people are proving dimmer and slower and more reluctant to pick that message up and above all Americans and Anglo-Saxons.On US-China relations:The general trend of U.S. China relations. to be of optimistic about the trend of U.S. China relations I'd have to be more optimistic than I currently am about the state of U.S. Politics. And there's a kind of general observation, which is that I think that American democracy is in very bad shape right now. And I wish that some of the China hawks in Congress, particularly on the Republican side, who are also willing to imply, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen, that there was massive fraud every time they say that stuff, they're making an in-kind contribution to the budget of the Chinese propaganda department…You cannot be a patriotic American political leader and tell lies about the state of American democracy. And then say that you are concerned about China's rise…..their message about Joe Biden is that he is weak and old and lacks control of Congress. And that he is, this is from scholars rather than officials, I should say, but their view is, why would China spend political capital on the guy who's going to lose the next election?…The one thing that I will say about the U.S. China relationship, and I'm very, very pessimistic about the fact that the two sides, they don't share a vision of how this ends well.Links:China’s online nationalists turn paranoia into clickbait | The Economist 赛雷：我接受了英国《经济学人》采访，切身体验了深深的恶意 David Rennie on Twitter @DSORennieTranscript:You may notice a couple of choppy spots. We had some Beijing-VPN issues and so had to restart the discussion three times. Bill:Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the `Sinocism podcast. It's been a bit of a break, but we are back and we will continue going forward on a fairly regular schedule today. For the fourth episode, I'm really happy to be able to chat with David Rennie, the Beijing bureau chief for The Economist and author of the weekly Chaguan column. Our topic today is online discourse, nationalism, and the intensifying contest for global discourse power.Bill:I've long been a fan of David's work and the approximate cause for inviting him to join the podcast today was an article on the January 8th issue of The Economist on online nationalism. Welcome David.David:Hello.Bill:So just to start, could you tell us how you got to where you are today?David:I've been a foreign correspondent for frighteningly long time, 24 years. And it's my second China posting. I've been out there so long. I've done two Chinas, two Washingtons, five years in Brussels. I was here in the '90s and then I went off, spent a total of nine years in Washington, DC. And then I came back here in 2018 and I was asked to launch a new column about China called Chaguan, because previously I wrote our Lexington column and our Bagehot column about Britain and our Charlemagne column about Europe. They all have strange names, but that's what we do. And so this is my fourth column for The Economist.Bill:We last met, I think in 2018 in Beijing in what seems like before times in many ways at The Opposite House, I believe.David:And the days when we had visitors, people came from the outside world, all of those things.Bill:Yes. You are quite the survivor, as they say. Although there are advantages to not worry about walking outside and getting sick all the time. Although it's better here in DC now.David:It's a very safe bubble. It's a very large bubble, but it's a bubble.Bill:So let's talk about your article, the January 8th issue. It was titled “China's online nationalist turned paranoia into click bait”. And I thought it was a very good distillation of the surge in nationalists and anti foreign content that is really flooding or was flooded the internet in China. And you interviewed one of the people who's profiting from it because it turns out that not only is it good from a sort of a sentiment perspective, but it's also good from a business perspective.Bill:And that person Sai Lei, interestingly enough, then recorded your conversation and turned it into a whole new post and video about the whole experience of talking to a foreign correspondent. Can you tell us a little about the story and why you chose to write it and just to add the links to David's article and the Sai Lei article will be in the podcast notes.David:So I heard from friends and colleagues, a couple of things in two directions. One was that in the world of private sector media, a couple of reasonably well known explainer sites, popular science video companies had been taken out of business by nationalist attacks. One was called Paperclip, the other called Elephant Union. And their crime in the eyes of online nationalists had been to talk about things which are fairly uncontroversial in Western media, that eating beef from the Amazon or eating beef that is fed soy grown in the Amazon is potentially bad for the rainforest and maybe we should eat less meat.David:But because this was in the Chinese context, that China is the biggest buyer of soybeans, this explainer video was attacked as a plot to deny the Chinese people the protein that they need to be strong, that this was a race traitor attack on the Chinese. And it was outrageous because the West eats so much more meat than China. And so that was one element of it. And I heard that these companies had been shut down. The other was that I'd been picking up that this was an extremely bad time for NGOs, particularly Chinese NGOs that get money from overseas. And we'd seen some really nasty attacks, not just on the idea that they were getting money from overseas, but that they were somehow guilty of espionage.David:And there was an NGO that did incredibly benign work. Tracking maritime and Marine trash, as it floats around the coasts of China based in Shanghai, Rendu Ocean. I'd done a column on them the year before I'd been out with their volunteers. It was a bunch of pensioners and retirees and school kids picking up styrofoam and trash off beaches, weighing it, tracking where it came from and then uploading this data to try and track the fact that China is a big generator of the plastic and other trash in the oceans. They were accused of espionage and taking foreign money to track ocean currents that would help foreign militaries, attack China, that they were guilty of grave national security crimes.David:And they were attacked in a press conference, including at the national defense ministry. And they're basically now in a world of pain. They're still just about clinging on. And so these two things, you have these NGOs under really serious attack, and you also have this attack on online explainer videos. The common theme was that the nationalist attack, they were somehow portraying the country and its national security was a weird combination of not just the security forces, but also private sector, Chinese online nationalists. And in particularly I was told there was a guy called Sai Lei. That's his non to plume who was one of the people making videos taking on these people. He went after celebrities who talked about China should be more careful about eating seafood.David:This was again, sort of race traitors. And he was using this really horrible language about these celebrities who talked about eating more sustainable seafood that they were ‘er guizi”, which is this time about the collaborationist police officers who worked with the Japanese during the World War II. He calls them Hanjian, the s-called traitors to the Chinese race. Very, very loaded language. Went after a group that’s working with Africans down in the south of China, talking about how they faced discrimination. This got them attacked. They had talked also about the role of Chinese merchants in the illegal ivory trade that got them attacked by the nationalists.David:So I thought this question of whether the government is behind this or whether this is a private sector attack on that. There's the profits to be made from this online nationalism struck me something I should write about. So I talked to some of the people whose organizations and companies had been taken down, they were very clear that they thought that was a unholy nexus of profit, clickbait and things like the communist youth league really liking the way that they can turbocharge some of these attacks-Bill:Especially on bilibili, they use that a lot.David:Especially on... Yeah. And so there's this weird sort of sense that, and I spoke to some very serious NGO people who've been in China a long time, Chinese and foreigners who said that this was the worst time for NGOs since 1989, and the kind of mentions of espionage and national security was a very serious thing. So then I had to make a decision, was I going to try and speak to someone like Sai Lei. Clearly he is an extremely aggressive nationalist, some would call him a troll and there are risks involved in talking to someone like him. But I felt, I'm one of the few English language media still in China, if I'm going to add value, I need to speak to these people.David:Yes. And so I reached out to the founder of a big, well known nationalist website who I happen to know. And I said, do you know this guy Sai Lei? And he said, I do, I'll get in touch with him. Sai Lei was very, very anxious about speaking to the Western media. Thought I was going to misquote him. And so eventually we did this deal that he was going to record the whole thing. And that if he thought I had misquoted him, that he was going to run the entire transcript on full on this other very well known nationalist website that had made the introduction. So I said, okay, fine. I have nothing to hide. That's all good. I wrote the column. I quoted Sai Lei. I didn't quote a tremendous amount of Sai Lei because what he said was not especially revealing.David:He was just an extremely paranoid guy. And there was a lot of whataboutism and he was saying, well, how would the American public react if they were told that what they eat damages the Amazon rainforest? And I said, well, they're told that all the time-Bill:All the time.David:It was an incredibly familiar argument. It's on the front page of America newspapers all the time. And so he wasn't willing to engage. And so, I ran this. He then put out this attack on me. It's fair. Look, I make a living handing out my opinions. I knew he was recording me, was it a bit disappointing that he cut and edited it to make me sound as bad as possible rather than running the full transcript. I mean, I interviewed a troll and that was the thing. He attacked me on the basis of my family, which then triggered a whole bunch of stuff that was pretty familiar to me, a lot of wet and journalists get a lot of attacks and it was an unpleasant experience, but I feel that the added value of being here is to talk to people, who The Economist does not agree with.David:And his fundamental problem was that I was using online as a disapproving time. But my line with people like him, or with some of the very prominent nationalists online academics, media entrepreneurs, also with the Chinese foreign ministry, when I'm called in is my job in China is to try to explain how China sees the world. To speak to people in China to let their voices be heard in The Economist. And I absolutely undertake to try and reflect their views faithfully, but I do not promise to agree with them, because The Economist does not hide the fact that we are a Western liberal newspaper. We're not anti-China, we are liberal. And so, if we see illiberall things happening in Abu Ghraib or in Guantanamo Bay or-Bill:DC.David:Being done by Donald Trump or being done by Boris Johnson or Brexit, or Viktor Orbán or in China, we will criticize them because we are what we say we are. We are a liberal newspaper. We have been since 1843. And what's interesting is that online, the reaction was... For a while, I was trending on Bilibili. And that was new. And I take that on the chin. I mean, I'm here, I'm attacking nationalists. They're going to attack back. I think what's interesting is that the online of nationalist attacks were, I hope that the ministry of state security arrest this guy, he should be thrown out of China. Why is he in China? They should be expelled. This guy has no right to be in China.David:I think that at some level, some parts of the central government machinery do still see a value to having newspapers like The Economist, reasonably well read Western media in China. And it's this conversation I've had a lot with the foreign ministry, with the State Council Information Office, which is as you know, it's the front name plate for the propaganda bureau. And I say to them, we are liberals.David:We are not anti-China any more than we're anti-American because we criticize Donald Trump, but you know where we're coming from, but I do believe that if China is concerned about how it's covered, if they throw all of us out, they're not going to get better coverage. I mean, some of the most aggressive coverage about China in the states comes from journalists who never go to China and economists who never go to China. And I think that, that argument resonates with some parts of the machine, to the people whose job is to deal with people like me.David:What I worry about is that there are other parts of the machine, whether it's the Communist Youth League or whether it's the ministry of state security or some other elements in the machine who do also see a tremendous value in delegitimizing Western media full stop, because if you're being criticized and you don't enjoy it. Tactic number one, whether you are Donald Trump talking about fake news, or Vladimir Putin talking about hostile foreign forces, or the Chinese is to delegitimize your critics.David:And I do think that that is going on in a way that in the four years that I've been here this time. And if, I think back to my time here 20 years ago, I do think the attempts to go after and intimidate and delegitimize the Western media they're getting more aggressive and they're trying new tactics, which are pretty concerning.Bill:So that's a great segue into the next question. But first, I just want to ask the nationalist website that you said ran Sai Lei's piece that was Guancha.cn?David:Yeah. And so it's probably not secret, but so I know a bit, Eric Li, Li Shimo, the co-founder Guancha.Bill:Eric actually famous for his TED Talk, went to Stanford business school, venture capitalist. And now, I guess he's affiliated with Fudan, And is quite an active funder of all sorts of online discourse it seems among other things.David:That's right. And I would point out that The Economist, we have this by invitation online debate platform and we invite people to contribute. And we did in fact, run a piece by Eric Li, the co-founder of Guancha, the nationalist website a couple of weeks before this attack, that Guancha ran. And I actually had debate with some colleagues about this, about whether as liberals, we're the suckers that allow people who attack us to write, he wrote a very cogent, but fairly familiar argument about the performance legitimacy, the communist party and how that was superior to Western liberal democracy.David:And I think that it's the price of being a liberal newspaper. If we take that seriously, then we occasionally have to give a platform to people who will then turn around and attack us. And if I'm going to live in China and not see of my family for a very long period of time, and it's a privilege to live in China, but there are costs. If you are an expert, then I'm not ready to give up on the idea of talking to people who we strongly disagree with. If I'm going to commit to living here to me the only reason to do that is so you talk to people, not just liberals who we agree with, but people who strongly disagree with us.Bill:No. And I think that's right. And I think that also ties in for many years, predating Xi Jinping there's been this long stated goal for China to increase its global discourse power as they call it. And to spread more the tell the truth, tell the real story, spread more positive energy about China globally instead of having foreign and especially Western, or I think, and this ties into some of the national stuff increasing what we hear is called the Anglo-Saxons media dominate the global discourse about China. And to be fair, China has a point. I mean, there should be more Chinese voices talking about China globally.Bill:That's not an unreasonable desire, or request from a country as big and powerful as China is. One thing that seems like a problem is on the one hand you've got, the policy makers are pushing to improve and better control discourse about China globally. At the same time, they're increasing their control over the domestic discourse inside the PRC about the rest of the world. And so in some ways, yes, there's an imbalance globally, but there's also a massive imbalance domestically, which seems to fit into what you just went through with Sai Lei and where the trends are. I don't know. I mean, how does China tell a more convincing story to the world in a way that isn't just a constant struggle to use the term they actually use, but more of an actual fact based honest discussion, or is that something that we're just not going to see anytime soon?David:I think there's a couple of elements to that. I mean, you are absolutely right that China like any country has the right to want to draw the attention of the world to stuff that China does. That's impressive. And I do think, one of my arguments when I talk to Chinese officials as to why they should keep giving out visas to people like me is, when I think back to the beginning of the COVID pandemic, I've not left China for more than two years. I've not left since the pandemic began, you had a lot of media writing that this incredibly ferocious crackdown was going to be very unpopular with the Chinese public. And that's because of the very beginning you had people, there lots of stuff on Chinese social media, little videos of people being beaten up by some [inaudible 00:16:26] in a village or tied to a tree, or their doors being welded shot.David:And it did look unbelievably thuggish. And people playing Majiang being arrested. But actually about three weeks into the pandemic, and I was traveling outside Beijing and going to villages and then coming back and doing the quarantine, you'd go into these villages in the middle of Henan or Hunan. And you'd have the earth bomb at the entrance to the village and all the old guys in the red arm bands. And the pitchforks and the school desk, or the entrance to the village with a piece of paper, because you got to have paperwork as well. And you've realized that this incredibly strict grassroots control system that they'd put in motion, the grid management, the fact that the village loud speakers were back up and running and broadcasting propaganda was actually a source of comfort.David:That it gave people a sense that they could do something to keep this frightening disease at bay. And I think to me, that's an absolute example that it's in China's interest to have Western journalists in China because it was only being in China that made me realize that this strictness was actually welcomed by a lot of Chinese people. It made them feel safe and it made them feel that they were contributing to a national course by locking themselves indoors and obeying these sometimes very strange and arbitrary rules. In addition, I think you are absolutely right, China has the right to want the foreign media to report that stuff.David:Instead of looking at China through a Western lens and saying, this is draconian, this is ferocious, this is abuse of human rights. It's absolutely appropriate for China to say no, if you're doing your job properly, you will try and understand this place on China's own terms. You will allow Chinese voices into your reporting and let them tell the world that they're actually comforted by this extremely strict zero COVID policy, which is tremendously popular with the majority of the Chinese public. That is a completely legitimate ambition. And I never failed to take the chance to tell officials that's why they should give visas to have journalists in the country, because if you're not in the country, you can't think that stuff up.David:What I think is much more problematic is that there is alongside that legitimate desire to have China understood on China's own terms, there is a very conscious strategy underway, which is talked about by some of the academics at Fudan who work for Eric Li at Guancha as a discourse war, a narrative war, or to redefine certain key terms.Bill:And the term and the term is really is like struggle. I mean, they see it as a public opinion war globally. I mean, that the language is very martial in Chinese.David:Absolutely. Yeah. And do not say that we are not a democracy. If you say that we are not a democracy, you are ignoring our tremendous success in handling COVID. We are a whole society democracy, which it's basically a performance legitimacy argument, or a collective utilitarian, the maximizing the benefits for the largest number of argument. It's not particularly new, but the aggression with which it's being pushed is new and the extraordinary resources they put into going after Western media for the language that we use of our China. And I had a very interesting conversation with a CGTN commentator who attacked me online, on Twitter and said that I was a... It was sort of like you scratch an English when you'll find a drug dealer or a pirate.David:Now there's a lot of Opium War rhetoric around if you're a British journalist in China. You're never too far from Opium War reference. And for the record, I don't approve of the war, but it was also before my time. So I actually, the guy attacked me fairly aggressively on Twitter. So I said, can you try and be professional? I'm being professional here why won't you be professional. He invited me with coffee. So we had coffee. And we talked about his work for CGTN and for Chaguan and his view of his interactions to Western media. And he said, this very revealing thing. He said, the reason we do this stuff is because it works.David:He said, I can't tell you how many Western diplomats, or Western journalists they whine. And they moan. And they say, how aggressive China is now and how upset all this Wolf warrior stuff is and how China is doing itself damage. And he goes, we're not, it's working. You in the Western media, used to routinely say that the national people's Congress was a rubber stamp parliament. And because we went after you again and again, you see news organizations no longer as quick to use that. Because we went after you calling us a dictatorship, you're now slower to use that term because we went after you about human rights and how it has different meanings in different countries. We think it's having an effect.David:And so I think that this attempt to grind us down is working, although in their view, it's working. And I think that, that ties in with a broader conversation that I have a lot in Beijing with foreign ambassadors or foreign diplomats who they get called into the foreign ministry, treated politically aggressively and shouted at and humiliated. And they say, how does the Chinese side not see that this causes them problems? And I think that in this moment of, as you say, an era of struggle, this phrase that we see from speeches, from leaders, including Xi, about an era of change, not seen in 100 years.David:They really do feel that as the West, particularly America is in decline and as China is rising, that it's almost like there's a turbulence in the sky where these two the two axis are crossing. And that China has to just push through that turbulence. To use a story that I had kept secret for a long time, that I put in a column when Michael Kovrig was released. So, listeners will remember Michael Kovrig was one of the two Canadians who was held cover couple of years, basically as a hostage by the Chinese state security. And fairly early on, I had heard from some diplomats in Beijing from another Western embassy, not the UK, I should say, that the fact that Michael Kovrig in detention was being questioned, not just about his work for an NGO, the international crisis group that he was doing when he was picked up.David:But he was also being questioned about work he'd been doing for the Canadian embassy when he had diplomatic immunity. The fact that that was going on was frightening to Western diplomats in Beijing. And soon after that conversation, I was sitting there talking to this guy, reasonably senior official. And I said to him, I explained this conversation to him. And I said, I've just been having a conversation with these diplomats. And they said, the word that they used was frightened about what you are doing to Michael Kovrig. And I said, how does it help China to frighten people from that country?David:And he'd been pretty cheerful up till then. He switched to English so that he could be sure that I understood everything he wanted to say to me. And he said, this absolute glacial tone. He said, Canada needs to feel pain. So that the next time America asks an ally to help attack China, that ally will think twice. And that's it.Bill:That's it. And it probably works.David:It works. And yeah. So I think that, again, one of the things I think is a value of being here is you have these conversations where the fact that we in the West think that China is inevitably making a mistake by being much more aggressive. I don't think that's how a big part of the machine here sees it. I think they think it worked.Bill:No. I agree. And I'm not actually sure that they're making a mistake because if you look at so far, what have the cost been? As you said, I mean, behavior is shift, but I think it's definitely open for question. I mean, it's like the assumptions you still see this week, multiple columns about how China's COVID policy is inevitably going to fail. And I'm sitting here in DC, we're about to cross a million people dead in this country, and I'm thinking what's failure. It's a very interesting time.Bill:I mean, to that point about this attitude and the way that there seem to be prosecuting a very top down or top level design communication strategy, Zhang Weiwei, who's at Fudan University. And also I think Eric Li is a closer associate of his, he actually was the, discussant at a Politburo study session. One of the monthly study sessions a few months ago, where I think the theme was on improving international communication. And talking about, again, how to better tell China's story, how to increase the global discourse power.Bill:Some people saw that as, oh, they're going to be nicer because they want to have a more lovable China image. I’m very skeptical because I think that this more aggressive tone, the shorthand is “Wolf warriors. wolf-warriorism”, I think really that seems to me to be more of a fundamental tenant of Xi Jinping being thought on diplomacy, about how China communicates to the world. I mean, how do you see it and how does this get better, or does it not get better for a while?David:It's a really important question. So I think, what do they think they're up to? To simplify and exaggerate a bit, I think that China, and this is not just a guess, this is based on off the record conversations with some pretty senior Chinese figures, they believe that the Western world, but in particular, the United States is too ignorant and unimaginative and Western centric, and probably too racist to understand that China is going to succeed, that China is winning and that the West is in really decadent decline.David:And so I think that these aggressive acts like detaining the two Michaels or their diplomatic an economic coercion of countries like Australia or Lithuania. They hear all the Pearl clutching dismay from high officials in Brussels, or in Washington DC-Bill:And the op-eds in big papers about how awful this is and-David:And the op-eds and yeah, self-defeating, and all those things. But I think that what they believe they are doing is delivering an educational dose of pain and I'm quoting a Chinese official with the word pain. And it is to shock us because we are too mule headed and thick to understand that China is winning and we are losing. And so they're going to keep delivering educational doses of pain until we get it. I think they think that's what they're up to-Bill:And by getting it basically stepping a side in certain areas and letting the Chinese pursue some of their key goals, the core interests, whatever you want to call it, that we, yeah.David:That we accommodate. Yeah. The fundamental message I'm quoting a smart friend of mine in Beijing here is China's rise is inevitable. Resistance is futile.Bill:Right. Resistance is futile.David:And if you accommodate us, we'll make it worth your while. It's the key message. And they think that some people are proving dimer and slower and more reluctant to pick that message up and above all Americans and Anglo Saxons. And so they're giving us the touch, the whip. Now, do I think that, that is inevitably going to be great for them? And you ask how does this end well? I mean, I guess my reason for thinking that they may yet pay some price, not a total price, is that they are engaged in a giant experiment. The Chinese government and party are engaged in a giant experiment, that it didn't matter that much, that the Western world was permissive and open to engagement with China.David:That, That wasn't really integral to their economic rise for the last 40 years that China basically did it by itself. And that if the Western world becomes more suspicious and more hostile, that China will not pay a very substantial price because its market power and its own manufacturing, industrial strength, we'll push on through. And so there'll be a period of turbulence and then we'll realized that we have to accommodate. And I think that in many cases they will be right. There will be sectors where industries don't leave China. They in fact, double down and reinvest and we're seeing that right now, but I do worry that there are going to be real costs paid.David:I mean, when I think back to... I did a special report for The Economists in May, 2019 about us generations. And one of the parts of that was the extraordinary number of Chinese students in us colleges. And I went to the University of Iowa and I spoke to Chinese students and you know that now, the levels of nationalism and hostility on both sides and the fear in American campuses, that's a real cost. I mean, I think if you imagine China's relationship with the Western world, particularly the U.S. as a fork in the road with two forks, one total engagement, one total decoupling, then absolutely China is right. There's not going to be total decoupling because we are as dependent as we were on China's, it's just-Bill:Right. Not realistic.David:China is an enormous market and also the best place to get a lot of stuff made. But I wonder, and it's an image I've used in a column, I think. I think that the relationship is not a fork in the road with two forks. It's a tree with a million branches. And each of those branches is a decision. Does this Western university sign a partnership with that Chinese university? Does this Western company get bought by a Chinese company? Does the government approve of that? Does this Western media organization sign a partnership with a Chinese media organization?David:Does this Western country buy a 5g network or an airline or a data cloud service or autonomous vehicles from China that are products and services with very high value added where China wants to be a dominant player. And that's an entirely reasonable ambition, because China's a big high tech power now. But a lot of these very high value added services or these relationships between universities, or businesses, or governments in the absence of trust, they don't make a bunch of sense because if you don't trust the company, who's cloud is holding your data or the company who's made you the autonomous car, which is filled with microphones and sensors and knows where you were last night and what you said in your car last night, if you don't trust that company or the country that made that, none of that makes sense.David:And I think that China's willingness to show its teeth and to use economic coercion and to go to European governments and say, if you don't take a fine Chinese 5g network we're going to hurt you. If you boil that down to a bumper sticker, that's China saying to the world, or certainly to the Western world stay open to China, or China will hurt you. Trust China or China will hurt you. That's the core message for a lot of these Wolf warrior ambassadors. And that's the core message to people like me, a guy who writes a column living in Beijing. And a lot of the time China's market power will make that okay. But I think that's, if you look at that tree with a million decisions, maybe more of those than China was expecting will click from a yes to a no.David:If you're a Western university, do you now open that campus in Shanghai? Do you trust your local Chinese partner when they say that your academics are going to have freedom of speech? And what's heartbreaking about that is that the victims of that are not going to be the politic bureau it's going to be people on the ground, it's going to be researchers and students and consumers and-Bill:On both sides. I mean, that's-David:On both sides. Yeah.Bill:Yeah. That's the problem.David:Yeah.Bill:So that's uplifting. No, I mean, I-David:I've got worse.Bill:Wait until the next question. I think I really appreciate your time and it'd be respective but I just have two more questions. One is really about just being a foreign correspondent in China and the Foreign correspondents' Club of China put out its annual report, I think earlier this week. And it's depressing you read as it's been in years and every year is extremely depressing, but one of the backdrops is really the first foreign ministry press conference of the last year of 2021. It really struck me that Hua Chunying, who is... She's now I think assistant foreign minister, vice foreign minister at the time, she was the head of the information office in I think the one of the spokespeople, she made a statement about how it was kicking off the 100th anniversary year.Bill:And I'm just going to read her couple sentences to get a sense of the language. So she said, and this was on the, I think it was January 4th, 2021, "In the 1930s and 1940s when the Guangdong government sealed off Yunnan and spared, no efforts to demonize the CPC foreign journalists like Americans, Edgar Snow, Anna Louise Strong and Agnes Smedley, curious about who and what the CPC is, chose to blend in with the CPC members in Yunnan and wrote many objective reports as well as works like the famous Red star over China, giving the world, the first clip of the CPC and its endeavor in uniting and leading the Chinese people in pursuing national independence and liberation."Bill:And then went on with more stuff about how basically wanting foreign correspondents to be like Snow, Strong or Smedley. How did that go over? And I mean, is that just part of the, your welcome as long as you're telling the right story message?David:So there was a certain amount of... Yeah. I mean, we also got this from our handlers at the MFA, why couldn't it be more like Edgar Snow? And I fear the first time I had that line in the meeting, I was like, well, he was a communist, if that's the bar, then I'm probably going to meet that one. Edgar Snow went to Yan’an he spent a tremendous amount of time in Mao hours interviewing Mao. If Xi Jinping wants to let me interview him for hours, I'd be up for that. But I would point out that Edgar Snow, after interviewing Mao for hours, then handed the transcripts over to Mao and had them edited and then handed back to him. And that probably would not be-Bill:But doesn't work at The Economist.David:That wouldn't fly with my editors. No. So I think we may have an inseparable problem there. Look, isn't it the phrase that Trump people used to talk about working the refs? I mean, what government doesn't want to work the refs. So, that's part of it. And I'm a big boy, I've been at Trump rallies and had people scream at me and tell me, I'm fake news. And it was still a good thing to meet. I've interviewed Afghan warlords who had happily killed me, but at that precise moment, they wanted the Americans to drop a bomb on the mountain opposite.David:And so they were willing to have me in their encampment. So, the worker of being a journalist, you need to go and talk to people who don't necessarily agree with you or like you and that's the deal. So I'm not particularly upset by that. What is worrying and I think this is shown in the FCC annual server, which is based on asking journalists in China how their job goes at the moment is there is a sense that the Chinese machine and in particular things like the communist youth league have been very effective at whipping up low public opinion.David:So when we saw the floods in Hunan Province in the summer of 2021, where in fact, we recently just found out that central government punished a whole bunch of officials who had covered up the death doll there, journalists who went down there to report this perfectly legitimate, large news story, the communist youth league among other organizations put out notices on their social media feeds telling people they're a hostile foreign journalists trying to make China look bad, to not talk to them, if you see them, tell us where they are. And you've got these very angry crowds chasing journalists around Hunan in a fairly worry way.David:And again, if you're a foreign correspondent in another country, we are guests in China. So, the Chinese people, they don't have to love me. I hope that they will answer my questions, because I think I'm trying to report this place fairly, but I'm not demanding red carpet treatment, but there is a sense that the very powerful propaganda machine here is whipping up very deliberately something that goes beyond just be careful about talking to foreign journalists. And I think in particular, one thing that I should say is that as a middle aged English guy with gray hair, I still have an easier time of it by far because some of the nastiest attacks, including from  the nastiest online nationalist trolls.David:They're not just nationalists, but they're also sexist and chauvinist and the people who I think really deserve far more sympathy than some like me is Chinese American, or Chinese Australian, or Chinese Canadian journalists, particularly young women journalists.Bill:I know Emily Feng at NPR was just the subject of a really nasty spate of attacks online about some of her reporting.David:And it's not just Emily, there's a whole-Bill:Right. There's a whole bunch.David:There's a whole bunch of them. And they get called you know er guizi all sorts of [crosstalk 00:37:15]. And this idea and all this horrible stuff about being race traitors and again, one of the conversations I've had with Chinese officials is, if you keep this up, someone is going to get physically hurt. And I don't think that's what you want. David:And again, I fall back on the fact that I'm a Western liberal. What I say to them is if you tell me that a Chinese-British journalist is not as British as me, then you are to my mind, that's racial prejudice. And if some right wing Western white politician said to me that a Chinese immigrant wasn't fully American, or wasn't fully British, that's racism, right?Bill:That's racism. Yeah.David:And I think that is the really troubling element to this level of nationalism. China is a very big country that does some very impressive things that does some less impressive things and does some very wicked things, but we have every reason to give it credit for the things it does well. And it is not that surprising when any government tries to work the refs.David:And get the best coverage they can by intimidating us and calling us out. I've interviewed Donald Trump and he asked me, when are you going to write something nice about me? I mean, we're grownups, this is how it works, but if they are making it toxic for young women journalists to work in China, or if they are driving foreign correspondent out of China, because their families they're under such intimidation that they can't even go on holiday without their children being followed around by secret police. I think there will be a cost.Bill:But that may be a what the Chinese side sees as a benefit, because then it opens the field for them controlling how the story's told. And then you can bring in a bunch of people or pull a bunch of people out of the foreigners working for state media, hey, the new Edgar Snow, the new Agnes Smedley. I mean, that is one of the things that I think potentially is what they're trying to do, which seems self-defeating, but as we've been discussing, what we think is self-defeating the policy makers, or some of them may see as a success.David:So what I think they're confident of is that being aggressive and making us much more jumpy is a win, but throwing all of us out, I think the people at the top get that, that's not a win because the New York times and the BBC and the Washington post, they're still going to cover China, even if they can't have people in China. And a bunch of that coverage is not going to be stuff that China likes, North Korea doesn't have any resident foreign correspondent, but it doesn't get a great press.Bill:And the other group, of course, but beyond the foreign journalists is all the PRC national journalists working for the foreign correspondent as researchers and, I mean, many of them journalists in all but name because they can't legally be that I've certainly, been hearing some pretty distressing stories about how much pressure they're under. And I think they're in almost an impossible situation it seems like right now.David:Now they're amazingly brave people. They're completely integral to our coverage. And many of them, as you say, they're journalists who in any other country, we would be getting to write stuff with their own bylines. I mean, in incredibly cautious about what we have our Chinese colleagues do now, because they are under tremendous pressure. I mean, not naming news organizations, but the just the level of harassment of them and their families and is really bad. And it's the most cynical attempt to make it difficult for us to do our jobs and to divide Chinese people from the Western media.David:But fundamentally at some level, this does not end well because, and this is not me just talking up the role of the Western media, because I think we're magnificently important people, but at some level there's a big problem under way with this level of nationalism in modern China. I was in China in the '90s, you were in China in the '90s, I think. We remember it was-Bill:'80s, '90s, 2000s. Yeah.David:Yeah. You were there before me, but it was not a Jeffersonian democracy. It was a dictatorship, but this level of nationalism is much more serious now. Why does that matter? Well, because I think that for a lot of particularly young Chinese, the gap between their self perception and the outside world's perception of China has become unbearably wide. They think this country has never been so impressive and admirable. And yet I keep seeing foreign media questioning us and criticizing us. And that just enrages them. They can't conceive of any sincere principle on our part that would make us criticize China that way.David:And going back to my conversation with the online nationalist Sai Lei, when he was saying, well, how would the Americans take it if they were told that eating avocados was bad for the environment? When I said to him, but they are told that. There are lots of environmental NGOs that talk about sustainable fisheries, or the cost, the carbon footprint of crops and things in the West. The two countries are pulling apart and the pandemic has just accelerated that process. And so if you are a Chinese nationalist, not only are you angry about being criticized, but you don't believe that the West is ever critical about itself. You think that the West is only bent on criticizing China. And that gap in perceptions is just really dangerously wide.Bill:And widening, it seems like. I mean, I'm not there now, but it certainly, from everything I can see outside of China, it feels like that's what's happening too.David:Yeah. We need to know more about China.Bill:I agree.David:And report more about China. And I don't just say that because that's how I earn my living. I think it's really, really dangerous for us to think that the solution is less reporting about China.Bill:Well, and certainly, I mean, and all sorts of avenues, not just media, but all sorts of avenues, we're seeing a constriction of information getting out of China. And on the one hand China's growing in importance globally and power globally. And on the other hand, our ability to understand the place seems to be getting harder. And it goes back to, I mean, we just, I think it'll be a mistake if we just get forced into accepting the official version of what China is. That's disseminated through the officially allowed and sanctioned outlets in China. Maybe that'll help China, but I'm not sure it helps the rest of the world.David:And it's not compatible with China's ambitions to be a high tech superpower. China wants to be a country that doesn't just-Bill:That's a very fundamental contradiction.David:Yeah. China wants to sell us vaccines and wants the Western world to buy Chinese vaccines and approve Chinese vaccines. Why has the FDA not yet approved Chinese vaccines? Well, one reason is because China hasn't released the data. You can't play this secretive defensive hermit state and be a global high tech superpower. And China is a very, very big country with a lot of good universities, a lot of smart people. It has every right to compete at the highest levels in global high tech. But you can't do that, if you are not willing to earn trust by sharing the data, or by letting your companies be audited, when they list overseas. They need to decide.Bill:Or being able to handle legitimate criticism. I mean, certainly there has been illegitimate criticism and the attacks on the Western media, I mean, I know the BBC was a frequent target last year. And I think they were able to pull out some errors of the reporting and then magnify it. I mean, it is a struggle. And I think one of the things I think is on the Chinese side, they're very much geared up for this ongoing global opinion struggle. And we're not and we're never going to be, because it's just not how our systems are structured. So it's going to be an interesting few years.David:It is. And it's a tremendous privilege to still be here. And as long as I'm allowed, I'm going to keep letting Chinese people, letting their voices be heard in my column. That's what I think I'm here for.Bill:Okay. Last question. Just given your experience in living in DC and writing for The Economist from here, where do you see us, China relations going? And there is a one direct connection to what we just talked about, the foreign journalists where there theoretically has been some sort of an improvement or a deal around allowing more journalists from each side to go to other country. Although what I've heard is that the Chinese side was been very clear that some of the folks who were forced to leave or were experienced are not going to be welcome back. It's going to have to be a whole new crop of people who go in for these places, which again, seems to be, we don't want people who have priors or longer time on the ground, potentially.David:We think that each of the big American news organizations just going to get at least one visa, initially. And that Is going to be this deal done and it's high time. And you're right, as far as we can tell the people who were expelled or forced to leave are not going to come back. And that's a real tragedy because I have Chinese officials say to me, we wish that the Western media sent people who speak good Chinese and who understand China. And I was like Ian Johnson and Chris Buckley, these people lived for, their depth of knowledge and their love for China was absolutely unrivaled. So, if you're going to throw those people out, you can't complain about journalists who don't like China.Bill:Exactly.David:The general trend of U.S. China relations. to be of optimistic about the trend of U.S. China relations I'd have to be more optimistic than I currently am about the state of U.S. Politics. And there's a kind of general observation, which is that I think that American democracy is in very bad shape right now. And I wish that some of the China hawks in Congress, particularly on the Republican side, who are also willing to imply, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen, that there was massive fraud every time they say that stuff, they're making an in-kind contribution to the budget of the Chinese propaganda department.Bill:I agree completely there. It's not a joke because it's too serious, but it's just ludicrous, hypocrisy and shortsightedness. It's disgusting.David:You cannot be a patriotic American political leader and tell lies about the state of American democracy. And then say that you are concerned about China's rise. So there's a general observation about, if dysfunction continues at this level, then-Bill:No wonder the Chinese are so confident.David:Yeah. I mean, the Chinese line on president Biden is interesting. One of the big things about my first couple of years here when president Trump was still in office was, I'd any number of people in the states saying confidently that Donald Trump was a tremendous China hawk. I never believed. And I've interviewed Trump a few times and spoken to him about China and spoken to his China people. I never believed that Donald Trump himself was a China hawk. If you define a China hawk, as someone who has principled objections to the way that China runs itself. I think that Donald Trump couldn't care less about the Uighurs and Xinjiang. In fact, we know he approved to what they were doing.David:Couldn't care less about Hong Kong couldn't care less frankly, about Taiwan. His objection to the China relationship was that I think he thinks the American economy is the big piece of real estate, and you should pay rent to access it. And he thought China wasn't paying enough rent. So he was having a rent review. I mean, that's what the guy. It was about, they needed to pay more and then he was going to be happy. So he was not a China hawk. What was really interesting was that here in China, officials would be pretty open by the end, took them time to get their heads around Trump. For a long time they thought he was New York business guy. Then they realized that was, he wasn't actually like the other New York business guy they knew.David:And then they thought he was like a super China hawk. And then they realized that that wasn't true. By the end, they had a nail. They thought he was a very transactional guy. And the deal that they could do with him was one that they were happy to do, because it didn't really involve structural change on the Chinese side. Then their message about Joe Biden is that he is weak and old and lacks control of Congress. And that he is, this is from scholars rather than officials, I should say, but their view is, why would China spend political capital on the guy who's going to lose the next election?Bill:And not only the next election but is probably going to lose control of the House, at least in nine, what is it? Nine months or 10 months. So why worry? And that they do and I think, I mean, one of the big milestones will be the national security strategy, the national defense strategy, which in the Trump administration they came out in the December of the first year and then January for the NDS. It's February, we still haven't seen those here. I think certainly as you said, but certainly from Chinese interlock is the sense of, is that they can't come to an agreement on what it should be, the U.S. China policy.David:Yeah. And China has some legitimate concerns. I mean, for example, if you are Xi Jinping and you're trying to work out how ambitious your climate change timetables going to be. How much pain are you going to ask co-producing provinces in the Northeast to take to get out to carbon neutrality as quickly as say, the Europeans are pushing you to do. And part of the equation is America going to take some pain too, or are we going to end up being uncompetitive? Because America's not actually going to do the right thing? Well, Joe Biden can talk a good game on climate as an area for cooperation with China. But if he loses the next election and Donald Trump or someone like Donald Trump wins the White House then if you're shooting pink, why would you kind of strike a painful deal with America if you don't think it's going to last beyond 2024?Bill:Right. You'll do what makes sense for your country and not offer anything up to America because we already have a record of backing out of these deals. That's the problem.David:So that has real world consequences. The one thing that I will say about the U.S. China relationship, and I'm very, very pessimistic about the fact that the two sides, they don't share a vision of how this ends well. There is no end game that I think makes both sides happy, because I think the Chinese vision is America sucks it up and accommodates.Bill:Right. Resistance is futile.David:Yeah, exactly. And the American vision, I think, is that China stumbles, that China is making mistakes, that the state is getting involved in the economy too much. That Xi Jinping is centralizing power too much. And that somehow China's going to make so many mistakes that it ends up to feed defeating itself. I think that's one of the arguments you here in DC.Bill:Yes. It's wishful thinking it's not necessarily based on a rigid rigorous analysis. It seems like it's much more wishful thinking.David:So, that is a reason to be pessimistic about the medium and the long-term. The one thing that I will say based here in China is that when I write really specific color about things like what does China think of the idea of Russia invading Ukraine? And I talk to really serious scholars who spent their lives studying things like Russia policy or foreign policy or international relations, or if I talk to really senior tech people, Chinese tech companies, they do take America's power very seriously. Even though there is absolutely sincere disdain for American political dysfunction.David:I think that America's innovation power, the areas of technology, whether it's semiconductors or some forms of AI algorithms where America just really is still ahead by a long way, the really serious people, when you talk to them off the record, they still take America seriously. And on that Ukraine example, what was really interesting, the prompt for that was seeing commentators in the U.S. saying that Xi Jinping would like Putin to invade Ukraine because this was going to be a test that Biden was going to fail and America was going to look weak. And maybe that would lead Xi Jinping to then invade Taiwan.David:And when I spoke to Chinese scholars, really serious Chinese scholars of Russia, their Irish, it's like, no, no, no. Russia is an economy, the size of Guangdong and they sell us oil and gas, which is nice. But our trade to them is not enough to sacrifice our relationship with America.Bill:Thank you, David Rennie. That was a really good conversation. I think very useful, very illuminating. The links, some of the articles we talked about, the links will be in the show notes. And just a note on the schedule for the sinocism podcast. It is not, I think going to be weekly or biweekly as I thought originally, I'm still working it out, but it will be every, at least once a month. I hope it's the plan, if not, a little more frequent depending on the guests.Bill:So thanks for your patience and look forward to hearing from you. I love your feedback. The transcript will be on the website when it goes live. So please let me know what you think. And as always, you can sign up for sinocism at sinocism.com, S-I-N-O-C-I-S-M.com. Thank you. Get full access to Sinocism at sinocism.com/subscribe

Audio source: https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/berkshire-hathaway-part-iTranscriptI think maybe in part because of this mindset of like I'm going to stay true to do what I'm good at, he makes the biggest missed opportunity ever maybe in history. I was teasing Ben, over the last couple days texting him saying, I've got something in this episode that I don't know if you know but is just the most unbelievable thing that you will never imagine.Ben: Lay it on me.David: In 1967, he writes his partners saying that he's introducing a new ground rule to the partnership. This one is quite literally the opposite of Don Valentine. He says, “We will not go into businesses where technology, which is way over my head, is crucial to the investment decision. I know about as much about semiconductors or integrated circuits as I do about the mating habits of this chrząszcz.” It a Polish word. It means beetle in Polish. Typical Warren way with words here. “This is very unfortunate.”Ben: What was the company?David: “Very unfortunate decision to make.”Ben: Let's see, 1967. It predates Microsoft by seven years, predates Apple. It's way after IBM. What's around this time, DEC? No, it's post-DEC.David: No, you'll get it if you think about it enough. Silicon Valley, or just as we talked about it a lot on the show.Ben: Is it an early Sequoia investment?David: Just pre-Sequoia. Sequoia was started in 1972, but this is all the crew that Don Valentine—Ben: Is it an Arthur Rock investment?David: It is an Arthur Rock investment.Ben: Is it Intel?David: We're talking about Intel here.Ben: No way.David: Get this. Buffett, at this point, is on the board of Grinnell College in Iowa. He's a trustee of Grinnell College, which by the way, he was introduced to by Susie. Susie became an incredible civil rights activist and Grinnell College was involved in the civil rights movement. Martin Luther King spoke at Grinnell College six months before he was killed. Susie brings Warren to the college to listen to King speak. Warren is like incredibly moved by Dr. King.He decides after that to join the board. They were trying to recruit him to join the board, so he does. Do you know who else was on the board? One of Grinnell College's most famous alumni, alongside Warren Buffett?Ben: Noyce or Moore.David: Yes, bingo. Robert Noyce.Ben: Wow.David: Alumni of Grinnell College, inventor of the integrated circuit, part of the traitorous eight, who left Shockley Semiconductor to start Fairchild, and then co-founder of Intel with Gordon Moore and Andy Grove is on the board of Grinnell with Warren. Not only has that, but Warren chairs the endowment investment committee at Grinnell. Of course, that would make sense. When Noyce leaves to start Intel and Arthur Rock is putting the deal together to finance Intel, Noyce brings it to the investment committee at Grinnell College and says, there's $100,000 piece. I think Grinnell should invest in this company. I think this is really going to be big. I know what I'm doing.Ben: He saw the deal.David: Warren approves the investment and Grinnell does invest $100,000 in the Intel seed round effectively. But Warren never goes near it for the partnership, for himself. In fact says, I will never invest in technology companies. Unreal.Ben: Basically held to that for another 45+ years.David: Totally. Not until Apple and I think—I haven't done the research yet—Apple bubbles up within Berkshire from Todd Combs, not from Warren. Talk about sins of omission. This is before Sequoia. Imagine if Warren had financed Intel, Warren Buffett could have been Warren Buffet plus Sequoia Capital.Ben: Wow. Realistically, what would he have done with it if he did invest in it? First of all, he's never invested in technology business to this point. He's never invested in something that early. Everything he's bought has been pieces of public companies.David: Yup. Established on-going cash flow businesses.

The world is moving toward being decentralized in every area from the internet to big business. What that means is that the way we do things will change, and in some cases, those things are already vastly different than the norm we all have grown accustomed to.Funding and investments are one aspect of the business world that for a long time have operated in silos. But the tide is shifting, and David Koifman is helping to democratize the world of investment through his work at Kickfurther.Kickfurther is an investment platform that uses the power of crowdfunding to help CPG companies fund their inventory and production runs. Most of the deals on Kickfurther are fully funded and closed within minutes, which proves there is an appetite for this kind of investment in the general market. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, David explains the model and its benefits to both businesses and investors, and he explains how crowdfunding will continue to make an impact on ecommerce companies in the decentralized future. Main Takeaways:Democratizing Investment: For too long, companies have been at the mercy of financial institutions to help fund early production runs or other operational costs. And while that solution works for some, we think that new solutions are still needed. Opening up investment opportunities to the general public is a peek into where the world of funding is headingKeep Proving Yourself: When a company gets a bank loan and pays it off, the business is seen as more successful and its credit rises. A similar thing happens when a company uses crowdfunding for inventory: by delivering the inventory the crowd has purchased and then opening up a new round of funding, a business is building credibility with a consumer and broad investor audience that it otherwise would not have been able to reach.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles. And today we're talking to David Koifman, the head of growth at Kickfurther. David, welcome to the show.David:Hey Stephanie. Great to be on the show.Stephanie:I'm glad to have you. So I was looking through your background and I was hoping we could start there because I saw that you've been in sales and partnerships and business development, and it seems like you've had a wide ranging career. So I wanted to hear a little bit about what you did before Kickfurther, and what brought you here.David:Before Kickfurther? I was in marketing right out of college. And then I went into the world of startups in financial technology. I began as a sales rep and grew within a small organization to a much larger organization, led the team, and basically built out sales account management partnerships. And then we were getting to a stage of growth where I wasn't feeling the excitement that I initially felt and joined the team at Kickfurther to do it all over again. So I've been here three and a half years. It's been awesome. We've grown tremendously, and I'm very excited about the next few years to see where it will go.Stephanie:Awesome. So you've always, always had the startup bug, where you're looking for that crazy hectic environment, fast growth.David:Yeah. It's like I see myself as a sales guy who doesn't like just selling. What I like is building the sales process, building the team, understanding the customer. So a little bit more beyond just knowing individual customers and building a book of business.Stephanie:Yep. Got it. So tell me a bit about what Kickfurther does.David:So Kickfurther solves a unique problem that every consumer goods business faces in their early stages of growth. You'll see a lot of companies are funding on platforms like Kickstarter, Indiegogo. These are crowdfunding platforms where businesses raise money to fund their first production run. Production run is when a business is producing inventory. Inventory is the product that they sell. So as that business completes their crowdfunding campaign or determines that they have product market fit, they will need to come back and order more product. Sometimes, they're buying that product from a supplier, maybe a manufacturer in China or here in the U.S., somebody that produces a finished product, and then they receive it in their warehouse and they sell through it. Sometimes they're buying a bunch of raw materials and making a product themselves. Usually that's the case in food or some health and beauty applications.David:But the bottom line is that costs a lot of money, and the faster the business grows, the more they have to invest into inventory upfront. You have to pay for that inventory, it takes months to produce, and then you get it into a warehouse and then you start selling it to customers. And then your customers start paying you. So there could be a long amount of time from when you need to outlay that cash to produce the inventory until you're able to recoup that revenue and put it into the next production run. So as businesses grow, they encounter this cash flow pinch, and Kickfurther solves that pinch. We have developed a marketplace on kickfurther.com, where we will vet companies and structure deals. And then a community of users will come to those deals and participate in purchasing the inventory for that business. The business will then produce the inventory, sell it, and pay back Kickfurther and the users who participated in the deal; we'll make some money and get to do it all over again.Stephanie:Yeah. Very cool. It reminded me of, I saw quite a few real estate investment platforms like this too, where you get the fund, the next three or whatever it may be. So it seems like they're popping up in different ways to have a Kickstarter approach, but also getting people in the market who have the funds to be able to fund this inventory or investments or whatever it may be. So is that the main way that Kickfurther is different, where it's sourcing investment from the community instead of traditional lenders or actual investors?David:Yeah. So I mean, what we're doing is using the power of crowds rather than financial institutions. There's a lot of solutions out there that take money. They borrow money from banks and other financial institutions, and then present it to businesses and take a cut. And what we're doing is creating that opportunity for any individual on the internet, somebody who has money sitting in their bank account, and they want to use that money to make money by participating in a purchase of inventory for a consumer goods business. And so what we do is, it's not a loan. It's not an investment, it's actually a consignment agreement. So what we're doing is purchasing inventory for a business and consigning it to them to sell on our behalf. And as the business sells that inventory, then that triggers the consignment, and then we invoice them for it and they buy it back plus their cost of funding.Stephanie:Got it. Okay. So how do you make sure that you're bringing on companies onto your platform that won't make you nervous, where it's like, are you actually going to sell all this inventory? Because I'm not trying to cover that cost.David:Yeah. Well, there's a pretty thorough diligence process that we go through for every business that goes on the platform. We evaluate everything from their revenues to their supply chain, to how they distribute that product. And it's all verified through documentation. So it's not like anybody can come to us and say, Hey, we need money," and then just go up on the platform. There's a diligence process, just like there would be going to a bank or any other financial institution. I would say our uniqueness is we look at supply chain and distribution, and we assess risk in a very specific way. It's different from a bank. So some of our customers, everybody wants to go to a bank. Bank money is the cheapest. You want to go to a bank and get a line of credit and fund your business that way.David:However, if you're a small business, whether you're a restaurant or a clothing store, the bank looks at you the same. They say, how long have you been in business? Are you profitable? How much have you sold? Whereas we're looking at a very specific sector of small businesses that are consumer goods, businesses with supply chains. And we understand the intricacies of that supply chain and then how they get that product to their warehouse, get that product from the warehouse to the customers, and collect that money through their distribution channels. And so we use that information to determine who has access to capital on Kickfurther.Stephanie:Got it. Yeah, what's cool is that you guys are acting as like the trusted source, so that the community doesn't have to do as much due diligence, or I don't know if they do any at all, but you're acting as like the mediator, to be like, "We've done all the research. We know this company, and it's for the most part trustworthy," and then people can come in and fund that based off of your research and due diligence.David:We do verify all the information that's presented about the company. The individuals still do decide which deals they participate in. And that's based on what they read in the public profile. Some of them will go investigate more. Some of them will actually ask questions on the platform. So you have the ability as a participant to ask the owner or CEO questions before you participate, or during the deal, about distribution or how they're making products, or what if they're worried about competition? Any topic is welcome. There's a lot of additional diligence that an individual can conduct before they make the decision to participate.Stephanie:Cool. And is there a risk rating of, okay, this company is more of a startup one, this is going to be their first time raising money here; we're going to give them a risk rating of this? so maybe you have a higher payoff because of that if they end up selling all the inventory, or how do you guys think about the risk-based approach when it comes to getting investment?David:It's not as simple as just boiling it down to a one to 10 scale or something like that. But there's a lot of categories which each one of the customers that we fund will be shown in. And so you can look at how many years in business, what their revenue range is, how many different wholesale buyers they have, how many times they've gone through the supply chain and produced with their supplier. So there's a number of different elements that, that are categorized in terms of risk.Stephanie:Got it, cool. And what is the average return for someone? If I were to go in there and invest right now in a deal, is there an average range of what you make over one year or that a longer time horizon?David:So the deals range in duration from two to 10 months. So the way we compare deals is on a profit per month basis, and businesses will offer anywhere from one to two percent per month. And so you can annualize that in a way where, if you participate in a deal and then that money comes back to you, then you can redeploy it into another deal. And if you continue doing that, let's say 1.5% a month will translate to about 18% per year.Stephanie:Got it, cool. So what kind of struggles do you see ecommerce brands having right now when it comes to ... Obviously not having money to fund inventory is the high level problem, but maybe what kind of sticky situations do you see brands getting in by either waiting too long to get funding or not even thinking about it. What are some stories that you have around the whole inventory funding?David:Yeah, I think the biggest thing to do is to be proactive and understand what solutions are out there and how to use them before that need comes around. Because being desperate is the worst time to be looking. And if you've run out of inventory as a business owner, you're missing out on opportunities to sell. So like you could have a really successful Q4, and then you get to Q1 and people still want to buy your stuff, but you're all out. And then you placed an order with your supplier, and the supplier takes two months to produce. And then maybe you're in a position where you have to air freight instead of going on the water and you have to pay a lot more money to get it there faster. So there's all sorts of obstacles that come into play. And that's ecommerce.David:A lot of the businesses that we work with are multi-channel sales. So they're selling ecommerce and then they're selling to target or Best Buy or REI. And those companies will place orders, if you don't deliver those orders when you say you will, then you're probably going to lose that opportunity or at least jeopardize it in the future. So it's important to make sure that you have the inventory ready when you're going to need it. And you also don't want to have way too much. So if you buy a lot, and then you don't sell at the rate that you expected, you have a lot of cash sitting in the form of inventory in your warehouse. Sometimes it's going to go bad, if it's a crude product or it's just cash that you want to spend on advertising to sell the product, but you can't because you don't have it.Stephanie:Cool. So if I'm a new brand and I'm looking to crowdfund my inventory, what are some best practices that attract the investors in the crowd? What kind of things do you see connecting with people? How would I write up a good post right now to attract funding for someone to help with my inventory?David:The most important things are that you've done it before. So we don't work with businesses that are doing their first production run. We did in our very early days, and, as you can imagine, it's much higher risk. So we only work with businesses that have at least $150,000 in sales. And once they've demonstrated that, it's good to talk about how you work with your suppliers, what sort of things you do to ensure that you're going to receive the product that you want to receive within the timeframe that you plan on receiving it. So being conservative with time estimates, making sure that you have testing in place so that once your supplier says the product is ready, that somebody goes in and looks at it and you don't get a bunch of broken stuff.David:And then once it arrives, it's important that you have reliable distribution. People want to see good reviews. People want to see lots of reviews. And I would say, if there's somebody who's selling to a wholesale customer and they just have one customer who is placing large orders, that's pretty high risk. Because if that customer decides they don't want to buy anymore, who are they going to sell that product to? So those are the kinds of things that users on Kickfurther are taking a look at, reading through the profile, to decide if they're going to participate. One thing I will say that we haven't touched on is how fast these deals fund. So it's good for us at this point. It means that there's an imbalance in the marketplace in our favor. So the deal flow that we put up gets funded oftentimes in minutes.Stephanie:Yeah, I know. I noticed that, because I'm like, "Hmm, maybe let's see if I should investigate these deals." And I think it looked like everything was sold out, or it was all met to the limit. At least the two I was looking at. And it seemed like it happened really quick, where I'm like, "Hmm, this is competitive."David:Yeah. It's super competitive. So we have the ability to scale our deal flow pretty substantially without having a concern for deals funding fast enough. And as a user, if you're thinking about participating, you're going to get emails, you got to act on it fast. And so we put deals up. They have about 24 hours before they launch. And they always launch at 5:00 PM Eastern Standard Time. And if that, there's hundreds of people that are clicking, trying to get into deals like within a minute or two of 5:00 PM, when they usually fill up.Stephanie:Wild. I think you need more deals then for people to get in on.David:Yep. That's my job. I've been working hard on it. So we we've grown quite a bit. We have aggressive growth goals for 2021, and so far we're on track. It's early, but it's an exciting time to be at Kickfurther.Stephanie:That's great. So what brands are you trying to get on the platform right now? Who are you trying to convince to get on there?David:There's a lot of repeat customers, and we have really good retention. We average over four deals per customer, but they're all across the board. We're pretty product agnostic. We serve anybody who either buys or makes physical goods and then sells them with the exception of regulated things like alcohol, tobacco, firearms, THC, anything that's temperature controlled or perishable. Because of the consignment agreement nature of the contract, the inventory is our collateral in these deals. So we don't want it to go bad. And we want to make sure that it is available to anybody who participated in the consignment, they have to be able to purchase it.Stephanie:Yep. Oh, got it. So if the inventory doesn't sell out, you guys essentially have it in a warehouse, and me as an investor could be like, "I want one of those t-shirts then." Is that how to think about it?David:Yes, that is a way to think about it. So if the business is unable to sell the inventory, and they're unable to pay back Kickfurther and their users for the cost of it, then Kickfurther, based on our contract, will require a delivery of that inventory to us, at which point we'll attempt to sell it, and all the proceeds of that resale goes to the participants in that agreement.Stephanie:Have you had to do that yet?David:We have had to do that. We've been around for seven years. So it's happened, but these days it's very infrequent, and that's why these deals fund so fast as people who are participating on Kickfurther have great returns and they tell their friends about it and they the deals. So the performance, overall, is strong.Stephanie:Yeah, got it. So when I'm thinking about, as a business myself, getting credit and working with banks, you're building up your business credit worthiness. When you get traditional loans, I know we had to take on a couple of last year and it does help being like, "Oh yeah, we took on this size loan, we paid it off." How do you view crowdfunding in that kind of sense? Is it building up a business's credit worthiness or is it so siloed still at this point that it doesn't actually build up the financial view of the businessDavid:In some ways, it does, and in some ways it doesn't. It isn't considered debt to them. So it doesn't operate the same as taking out a loan and paying it back. But there's a lot of transactions that still occur that show the business is selling and making money. So their business credit will improve as a result of that. But yeah, it's kind of a mixed situation.Stephanie:Yeah, yeah. That seems tricky. Because it seems like a really good avenue to not only help the businesses, but then also bring in a lot more players. It seems like it's much more decentralized, which is great. The whole world's moving in that way, but if you can't really use it, be like, "Oh, look at these three different loans I have right now, the market funded them." I feel like the world needs to move to that place, the more of that crowdfunding and the decentralized approach is coming to the forefront.David:Well, the world is moving in that direction, but what's really cool is Kickfurther moves in that direction with the clients themselves. So as we establish a relationship with a business and they come back for repeat deals, we increase their limits substantially. And they have access to lower rates. Basically, they're earning credibility with this community. So let's say they offer one and a half percent per month on their first deal and they complete on time, and then they come back, they can offer less. It's really in the hands of the business owner what they want to offer, and the community, the marketplace, will decided if that business has earned that rate and are able to fund it at a lower cost. So as a customer at Kickfurther, as your revenues grow, you'll be able to take on more funding with Kickfurther, buy more inventory, and do it at a lower cost.Stephanie:Got it, okay. So you're building up that credit worthiness, just in a different hub, but you're doing that by just performing well and, yeah, that makes more sense.David:We will work with businesses who are starting at 150,000 in annual sales, and all the way up to 30 million. So there's quite a range of growth in service by Kickfurther. There's businesses that, once they reach a certain stage, either they're not accelerating as much as they used to and they have the cash flows to fund their own inventory and continue producing, or there's other businesses that have been long and around long enough where they are now exciting to banks and other financial institutions that have very low cost lending.Stephanie:Yep. Is there any guidance or any point where you're like, "Oh, you should probably just reinvest revenue or profits instead of getting a loan." Do you ever give guidance on that? Because I could see a lot of businesses always being like, "Oh, at such a low rate, why don't I get loans?" But then quite a few businesses have a lot of cash on their balance sheet too, and they don't know how to fully deploy it, but they're just so used to getting low interest loans. Is there any point where you've actually advised a company like, "You guys are good. Maybe you should reinvest profits." Or do you even see it from that angle?David:I don't think anybody's coming to us if they don't want additional capital. And I am always very transparent with everybody, and [inaudible] make sure you know, what your options are. We don't make money off convincing you to do one deal. We want that long-term engagement [inaudible] coming back. But I think the reason people come to Kickfurther is they have an opportunity with a buyer, or sales are growing so fast and in a channel where they want to launch a new product, they just don't have the cash to be able to do that. And that's why they're looking for funding solutions. And maybe they go to their equity investor and they say, "Hey, I need some additional capital to be able to take advantage of this opportunity." And the VC says, "You know what, why don't you seek some non-dilutive capital for that? That's a much better use of, why give up five or 10% of your ownership just so you can produce the next run when you're going to have to do another one and another one and another one after that?"Stephanie:Yep, yeah. That makes sense. So, since you're deep in the crowdfunding space, I'm sure you just see opportunities all around. So much stuff could be crowd crowdfunded. Where do you see that world headed? What kind of new opportunities do you see popping up in that space? Or what do you think is missing right now, where crowd funding could be meeting a need?David:I think there's a lot of money and power in crowds. And there's the ability to cut out middlemen and big entities that have been around for a long time and empower individuals to help these business owners grow. It's also not just the money that's coming from them. Why are people deciding to participate in these deals? A lot of them believe that they have an advantage and they have the knowledge in the space. So maybe they want to help the business owner. I've had plenty of users come to me and say, "Hey, I actually work in this space. And I have a couple of distribution opportunities that I'd like to connect with your client about." And I'll make a direct introduction, and all of a sudden they acquire a new sales channel. Or somebody who's got a lot of money and they want to do a side deal. Yeah, I am looking for equity investors, let me connect these two people.David:So those kinds of things happen rather frequently. And that's not going to happen when you're working with a sales rep at a bank. Because everything's coming from the bank's bank account. And actually the money that the bank is using is just coming from account holders and their deposits. So if you're storing money in a bank, the bank is using that money to lend to businesses and whoever else. So we're cutting that out of the mix. And I think it's good for everybody involved.Stephanie:Yeah, I think it's a good reminder too, about diversifying investments and why finding opportunities. Yeah, you don't want to just keep your money in a bank and let inflation just wither it away to nothing. So, yeah. It's cool to hear about opportunities like this that are very different, but will definitely help diversify your portfolio.David:Yeah. And it's really fun, from our standpoint, to work with all these young business owners. I mean like the business is young, not the individuals per se, but some of them just started a few months ago and they've had some real success. Some of them, it's a family business that's been around for a couple of generations, and all of a sudden they're discovering that ecommerce is a way to skyrocket the business. They have a really good product; they just haven't put it in front of the right audience. And they're figuring out how to make this happen financially, and we're there to help them. And it's just really great to be side by side with them as a partner and see that growth.Stephanie:Yep. Yeah. It seems like there's also could be a lot of international opportunities. I know that's a lot more risky once you start going that route and finding people who are doing much smaller scale ventures and being able to help back that, then turn into a bigger thing. But I have read a few stories of finding people doing amazing things in other countries, but they just don't have any kind of funding. Or they can't buy inventory for even 10 things to sell. And yeah, it seems like there's a lot of opportunity around the world, but of course it'd be much more risky trying to vet those projects and companies.David:It is definitely a challenge. It's something that we're considering doing down the road. You probably start with Canada and some EU companies, but there's different regulations in different countries. And also, if we get into a bad situation with a client, we have to pursue them legally. So working in a foreign legal system is very costly, and we try to help businesses out, and so our margins are pretty slim. So being able to afford that kind of activity is probably a ways down the road for us.Stephanie:Yeah. So what are you guys looking forward to for the next, maybe, two to three years? What are you planning for? You said you were going to be growing really quickly this year. What kind of things are you putting in place right now and where do you want to be in the next couple of years with Kickfurther?David:I'd say we want to be a household name for inventory funding. A lot of people are starting their own businesses. And we want to create an opportunity for them to grow at the rate that they're able to grow and have access to capital. And so our goal is to put our name out there in a way where it becomes recognizable to all business owners who are in the right space for us.Stephanie:Yep. Very cool. Yeah, Amazon be a good space, but then sometimes those one-off products that are being sourced and sold on there. So maybe that's not the best space. I'm not sureDavid:Those people are business owners and growing too. So if you have one product that's selling really well, and that's what you want to focus on, sure, that's great.Stephanie:Cool. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round. The lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, David?David:I'm ready.Stephanie:All right. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?David:Probably the state of the world. So the ability that people have to shop and travel and continue to live their lives the way they did before lockdowns and quarantine.Stephanie:Yep. All right, cool. If you had a podcast, what would it be about, and who would your first guest be?David:I don't think I would have a podcast.Stephanie:What would you have then, a clubhouse? What would you have then?David:A clubhouse. I think that, honestly, I was a little bit foreign to this whole world of supply chain and inventory finance when it came to Kickfurther, and I've discovered a passion for helping these business owners. So I think the clubhouse that I would have would be one where business owners get together and talk about different solutions that help their business grow, and what vendors they use and what are best practices, just an exchange of information across business owners and vendors.Stephanie:I like that, because yeah, I think even thinking about, "What manufacturer should I use? And how do I even source those people?" Still always feels like a black box and it's referrals. Or you have to know someone and that'd be a good one.David:We make quite an effort to make those resources available to our customers. So, as we go through our diligence process, we cover a lot of topics, and oftentimes customers will identify pain points, and we will say, "If you're interested in these, this is a partner of ours, or we've got a few different options or people you can talk to, to learn more about the solutions in this space."Stephanie:Yep. Cool. What's up next on your reading list?David:Can't Hurt Me by David Goggins.Stephanie:Okay. Nice. Where are you traveling to next when it's easier to travel again?David:In two weeks, I'm traveling to Salt Lake City to go skiing, but that's a drive for me.Stephanie:Yeah.David:Big skier. And whenever the snow comes, I'm out there.Stephanie:I love that. All right. And then the last one, what is your favorite piece of tech that you're using right now? It can be personally or with the business.David:Don't hate me, but it's my iPhone 12 Pro.Stephanie:What's to hate? I have the same thing. It's my favorite. It has the best cameraDavid:I bought it for the camera, but it's really fast. It's a computer in my pocket that does pretty much everything my actual computer does.Stephanie:Yeah.David:Super valuable piece of tech.Stephanie:Yep. I agree. All right, David, thanks so much for joining the show. Where can people find out more about you and Kickfurther?David:Kickfurther.com is the best place. You can find me on LinkedIn, David Koifman, and I look forward to connecting with anybody who's interested. Also, if you're a business owner listening and you're interested in funding with us, you can go to our website, fill out an application, or you can just email me david@kickfurther.com.Stephanie:Yeah.David:Thanks so much, Stephanie.Stephanie:Cool.David:It's good to be on here.Stephanie:Yeah, thanks, David. All right. See you.David:Take care.

02:15 - David’s Superpower: Being Confused * Norms of Excellence (https://notebook.drmaciver.com/posts/2020-05-31-09:20.html) * The Inner Game of Tennis: The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance (https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Game-Tennis-Classic-Performance/dp/0679778314) 11:56 - Daily Writing * David’s Newsletter: Overthinking Everything (https://drmaciver.substack.com/) * Unfuck Your Habitat (https://www.unfuckyourhabitat.com/) 15:47 - Learning to Be Better at Emotions 23:22 - Achievement and Joy as Aspirational Goals * [Homeostasis vs Homeorhesis](https://wikidiff.com/homeostasis/homeorhesis#:~:text=is%20that%20homeostasis%20is%20(physiology,to%20a%20trajectory%2C%20as%20opposed) * Aspiration: The Agency of Becoming by Agnes Callard (https://www.amazon.com/Aspiration-Agency-Becoming-Agnes-Callard/dp/0190639482) * Seeing like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed by James C. Scott (https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/dp/0300078153/ref=sr_1_2?crid=HEYGC212F6SG&dchild=1&keywords=seeing+like+a+state+by+james+c+scott&qid=1613057768&s=books&sprefix=seeing+like+a+state%2Cstripbooks%2C164&sr=1-2) * Philosophical Investigations by Ludwig Wittgenstein (https://www.amazon.com/Philosophical-Investigations-Ludwig-Wittgenstein/dp/1405159286/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1JRUU030WBCWQ&dchild=1&keywords=philosophical+investigations&qid=1613058025&s=books&sprefix=philos%2Cstripbooks%2C209&sr=1-1) Reflections: Jessica: Trying not knowing yourself. Rein: You shouldn’t be the owner of all your desires. Instead, you should measure your life by how well you follow the intentions that arise out of your values. Jacob: Thinking of yourself as the sum of all of the habits you maintain or don’t. David: The [Homeostasis vs Homeorhesis](https://wikidiff.com/homeostasis/homeorhesis#:~:text=is%20that%20homeostasis%20is%20(physiology,to%20a%20trajectory%2C%20as%20opposed) distinction, and cleaning a home as an ongoing process. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: SPONSORED AD: Whether you're working on a personal project or managing enterprise infrastructure, you deserve simple, affordable, and accessible cloud computing solutions that allow you to take your project to the next level. Simplify your cloud infrastructure with Linode's Linux virtual machines and develop, deploy, and scale your modern applications faster and easier. Get started on Linode today with $100 in free credit for listeners of Greater Than Code. You can find all the details at linode.com/greaterthancode. Linode has 11 global data centers and provides 24/7/365 human support with no tiers or hand-offs regardless of your plan size. In addition to shared and dedicated compute instances, you can use your $100 in credit on S3-compatible object storage, Managed Kubernetes, and more. Visit linode.com/greaterthancode and click on the "Create Free Account" button to get started. JACOB: Hello and welcome to Greater Than Code, Episode 223. My name is Jacob Stoebel and I'm joined with my co-host, Rein Henrichs. REIN: Thanks, Jacob and I'm here with my friend and also stranger because we haven't done this together in months, Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thank you, Rein! And Iím really excited today because our guest is David MacIver. Twitter handle, @DRMacIver. David MacIver is best known as the developer of Hypothesis, the property-based testing library for Python, and is currently doing a Ph.D. based on some of that work. But he also writes extensively about emotions, life, and society and sometimes coaches people on an eclectic mix of software development, intellectual, and emotional skills. As you can probably tell, David hasn't entirely decided what he wants to do when he grows u and that's the best because if you had decided well, then so few possibilities would be open. David, hello! DAVID: Hi, Jessica! Great to be here. JESSICA: All right. I'm going to ask the obligatory question. What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? DAVID: So as you saw me complaining about on Twitter, this question doesn't translate very well outside of the United States. JESSICA: Yeah, which is fascinating for me. DAVID: I'm a bit too British to say nice things about myself without sounding like I'm being self-deprecating. JESSICA: Self-depreciating it is! DAVID: [laughs] So I thought about this one for a while and I decided that the answer is that I'm really good at being confused and in particular, I have a much more productive response to being confused than it seems like most people do because basically, the world is super confusing and I think I never know what's going on, but then I notice that I know what's going on and I look at it and I'm just like, ìHmm, this is weird, right?î And then I read a book about it, or I sort of poke at it a bit and then I'm not less confused, but I'm less confused about that like, one little facet of the world and have found ten new things to be confused about. [laughter] JESSICA: Nice. DAVID: Usually, I can then turn this into being slightly better at the thing I was previously confused about, or writing about it and making everyone else differently confused than they started with. JESSICA: Definitely confused. That is a win. That's called learning. DAVID: Yeah, exactly. [laughter] This is where a lot of the writing you were talking about comes from and essentially, about 2 years ago, I just started turning these skills less on software development and more just going like, ìLife, it doesn't make sense, right?î [laughter] And noticing a whole bunch of things, I needed to work on and then that a lot of these were shared common problems. So I am, if anything, far more confused about all of it than I was 2 years ago, but I'm less confused about the things I was confused about that and seem to be gradually becoming a more functional human being as a result of the process. So yay, confusion. JESSICA: That superpower, the productive response to confusion, ties in with your reaction to the superpower question in general, which is as Americans, we're supposed to be ñ we want to have power. We want to be special. We want to be unique. We want to make our unique contribution to the world! And as part of that, we're not comfortable being confused because we need to know things! We need to be smart! We need to convey strength and competence and be the best! I hate the superlatives. [laughter] I hate the implied competition there, but instead, we could open our hearts to our own confusion and embrace that. Be comfortable being uncomfortable. DAVID: One of the things that often comes up for me is it's a thing that I think is slightly intentioned with this American tendency youíre pointing at, which is that I kind of want to be the best, but I don't really want to be better than other people. I just want to be better than I am now. I wrote a post a while ago about neuromas of excellence like, what would a community look like, which helped everyone be the best version of themselves and one of the top lists was basically that everyone has to be comfortable with not being good at things, but another is just that you have to not want to be better to the other people. You just need want to be better. Again, this is where a lot of the writing comes from. I've just gone, ìWell, this was helpful to me. It's probably helpful to other people.î That's not as sense of wanting to change the world and wanting to put my own stamp on things and it does require a certain amount to self-importance to go, ìYes, my writing is important and other people will like to read it,î but then other people like to read it so, that's fine and if they don't, that's fine, too. JESSICA: Well, you didn't make anyone read it, but you did start a newsletter and let people read it. JACOB: Is this weird thinking reflect a journey that you took in your life? Because I think about my company and my team and how incredibly generous everybody is and even still, I just find it's natural to compare myself to everyone else and needing to not be on the bottom. Part of me wonders if that's just like a natural human tendency, but just because it's natural doesn't make it so. JESSICA: Way natural American. JACOB: Yeah, basically I'm asking how do I stop doing that? [laughter] DAVID: It's definitely not something I've always been perfectly good at. But I think the thing that helped me figure out how to do this was essentially being simultaneously at the bottom of the social rung, but also super arrogant. So it's your classic nerd kit thing, right? It's completely failing at people, but also going, ìBut I'm better than all of you because I'm smart,î and then essentially, gradually having the rough edges filed off the second part and realizing how much I had to learn off the first part. I think sometimes my attitude is due to a lot of this is basically, to imagine I was a time traveler and basically going back in time and telling little David all the things that it was really frustrating that nobody could explain to me and I sadly haven't yet managed to perfect my time machine, but I can still pay it forward. If nobody was able to explain this to me and I'm able to explain it to other people, then surely, the world is a better place with me freely handing out this information. I don't think it's possible, or even entirely desirable to completely eliminate the comparing yourself to others and in fact, I'd go as far as to say, comparing yourself to others is good, but I think theÖ JESSICA: Itís how do we have a productive response to compare ourselves to others? DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. There's a great section in The Inner Game of Tennis, which is a book that I have very mixed feelings about, but it has some great bits where he talks about competition. If you think of a mountain climber, a mountain climber is basically pitting themselves against the mountain, right? They're trying to climb the mountain because it is hard and you could absolutely take a helicopter to the top of the mountain, but that wouldn't be the point. It's you're improving yourself by trying a hard thing. I mean, you're improving yourself in the sense that you're getting better at climbing mountains. You might not be improving yourself in any sort of fully generalizable way. JESSICA: Okay. [laughter] DAVID: When you are playing tennisóbecause this is a book about tennisóyou are engaged in competition with each other and you're each trying to be better than the other. In this context, essentially, what you are doing is you are being the mountain for each other. So you are creating the obstacles that the other people overcome and improve themselves that way and in doing this, you're not just being a dick about it. You're not doing this in order to crush them. You're doing this in order to provide them with the challenge that lets them grow. When you think about it this way, other people being better than you is great because there's this mountain there and you can climb it and by climbing the mountain, you can improve yourself. The thing that stops everyone becoming great is feeling threatened by the being better rather than treating it as an opportunity for learning. JESSICA: Yeah, trying to dynamite the mountain instead of climbing it. Whereas, when you are the mountain for someone else, you can also provide them footholds. Rein, do you have an example of this? REIN: I sure do, Jess. Thanks for asking. So I was just [laughs] thinking while you were talking about this, about the speed running and speed running communities. Because speed running is about testing yourself against a video game, which in this case, serves the purpose of the mountain, but it's also about competing against other speed runners. If it was purely competitive, you wouldn't see the behaviors, the reciprocity in the communities like sharing speed running strats, being really happy when other people break your record. I think it's really interesting that that community is both competitive, but there's also a lot of reciprocity, a lot of sharing. JACOB: And it's like the way the science community should work. It's like, ìOh, you made this new discovery because of this discovery I shared with you and now I'm proud that my discovery is this foundation for all these other little things that now people can be by themselves in 10 seconds instead of 30.î JESSICA: Yeah. Give other people a head start on the confusion you've already had so that they can start resolving new confusions. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely one of my hopes with all of this writing is to encourage other people to do it themselves. Earlier this year, I was getting people very into daily writing practices and just trying to get people to write as much as possible. I now think that was slightly a mistake because I think daily writing is a great thing to do for about a month and then it just gets too much. So I will probably see if I can figure out other ways of encouraging people to notice their confusion, as you say, and share what they've learned from edge. But sadly, can't quite get into do it daily. JESSICA: This morningís newsletter you talked about. Okay, okay, I can do daily writing, but now I want to get better at writing. I've got to go do something I'm worse at. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. I think daily writing is still a really good transitional stage for most people. To give them more context for this newsletter for people listening. Basically, most of my writing to date, I just write in a 1- or 2-hour sitting from start to finish. I don't really edit it. I just click publish and I've gotten very good at writing like that. I think that most people are ñ I mean, sometimes it's a bit obvious that I haven't edited it because they're obvious typos and the like. But by and large, I think it is a reasonably high standard of writing and I'm not embarrassed to be putting it out in that quality, but the fact that I'm not editing is just starting to be sort of the limiter on growth for me. It's never going to really get better than it currently is. It's certainly not going to allow me to tackle larger projects that I can currently tackle without that editing skill. JESSICA: [laughs] I just pictured you trying to sit down and write a book in one session. [laughter] And then you'd be tired. DAVID: Yeah. I've tried to doing that with papers even and it doesn't really work. I mean, I do edit papers, but Iím very visibly really bad at editing papers and it's one of my weaknesses as a academic is that I still haven't really got the hang of paper writing. JESSICA: Do you edit other people's papers? DAVID: I don't edit other people's papers, but I provide feedback on other people's writing and say, ìThis is what worked for me. This is what didn't work for me. Here are some typos you made.î It's not reading as providing good feedback on things, that is the difficult part of editing for me. It is much more ñ honestly, it's an emotional problem more than anything else. It's not really that I'm bad at editing at a technical level. I'm okay at editing at a technical level. I just hate doing it. [laughs] JESSICA: That is most problems we have, right? DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: In the end, itís an emotional problem. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. I think that is definitely one of the interesting things I've been figuring out in my last 2 years of working on learning more about emotions and the various skills around them is just going, ìOh, right. It's not this abstract thing where you are learning to be better at emotions and then nothing will change in your life because you're just going to be happier about everything.î I mean, some people do approach it that way, but for me, it's very much been, ìOh, I'm learning to be good at emotions because this really concrete problem that I don't understand, it turns out that that's just feelings.î [laughter] It's like, for example, the literature on how to have a clean home, turns out that's mostly anxiety management and guilt management. It's like fundamentally cleaning your home is not a hard problem. Not procrastinating on cleaning your home is a hard problem. Not feeling intensely guilty and aversive about the dirty dishes in the sink and is putting them off for a week. I don't do that. But just as a hypothetical example. [laughter] I mean, not a hypothetical example, I think a specific example that comes from the book, Unfuck Your Habitat, which is a great example of essentially, it's a book that's about it contains tips, like fill the spray bottle with water and white vinegar and also, tips about how to manage your time and how to deal with the fact that you're mostly not cleaning because of shame, that sort of thing. Writing books are another great example where 80% about managing the feelings associated with writing; it turns out practical problems pretty much all come down to emotionsóat least practical life problems. REIN: Sorry, I was just buying Unfuck Your Habitat real quick. [laughter] DAVID: It's a good book. I recommend it. JESSICA: Our internal like emotional habitat and our external habitat are very linked. You said something earlier about learning to be at emotions is not just you're magically happier at other things in your life change. DAVID: Yes. I mean, I think there are a couple of ways in which it manifests. One of them is just that emotions often are the internal force that maintains our life habits. It's you live in a particular way because moving outside of those trained habits is scary or aversive in some way. Like the cleaning example of how, if your home is a mess, it's not necessarily because you don't know how to make your home not a mess. Although, cleaning is a much harder skill than most people treat it as speaking as someone who is bad at the practical skills of cleaning, as well as the emotional side of cleaning. But primarily, if it were just a matter of scale, you could just do it and get better at it, right? The thing that is holding you in place is the emotional reaction to the idea of changing your habits. So the specific reason why I started on all of this process was essentially relationship stuff. I'd started a new major relationship. My previous one hadn't gone so well for reasons that were somewhere between emotional and communication issues, for the same reason basically every relationship doesn't go so well, if it doesn't go so ñ Oh, that's not quite true. Like there are actual ñ JESSICA: Some people have actual problems. [chuckles] But these things are. I mean, our emotions really, as sometimes we treat them as if they're flaws. As if our emotions are getting in our way is some sort of judgment about us as not being good people, but no, it just makes us people. DAVID: For sure. JESSICA: So you started on this journey because of the external motivation of helping someone you're in a relationship with, because it's really hard to do these things just for ourselves. DAVID: It is incredibly hard to do things just for ourselves. I guess, that is exactly an example of this problem, right? It's that there is a particular habit of life that I was in and what I needed to break out of that habit of life was the skills for dealing with it and then figuring out these emotional reactions. But unfortunately, the thing that the habits were maintaining, it was me not having the skills and so having the external prompts of a problem that was in the world rather than in my life, as it was, was what was needed to essentially kick me out of that. Fortunately, it turns out that my standard approach of reading a thousand books now was one that worked for me, in this case. I probably haven't read a thousand books on this, but that certainly worked. JESSICA: It wouldnít surprise me. [laughs] DAVID: I read fewer books than people think I do. I may well have read more than a hundred books about emotions and therapy and the like. But I probably haven't, unless I cast that brush really broadly, because I mean, everything's a book about emotions and therapy, if you look at your right. REIN: Have you read any books by average Virginia Satir? [laughter] DAVID: I don't know who that is, I'm afraid. JACOB: Drink! REIN: Excellent! Excellent news. [laughter] JESSICA: Itís about Virginia Satir, right? REIN: Virginia was a family therapist who wrote a lot about processing emotions and I have been a huge fan of her work and it's made a huge difference in my life and my career. So I highly recommend it. DAVID: Okay. I will definitely hear recommendations on books. What's the book title, or what's your favorite book title by? REIN: I think I would start with The Satir Model, which is S-A-T-I-R M-O-D-E-L. The Satir Model, which is about her family therapy model. JESSICA: Chances are good, you've read books based on her work. I was reading Gerry Weinberg's Quality Software Management: Volume Two the other day, which is entirely based on The Satir Model. REIN: Yeah. He was a student of hers. One of the things that she likes to say is that the problem is never the problem, how we cope is the problem. JESSICA: Can we have a productive response to the problem? DAVID: Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. I think often, the problem is also the problem. [laughter] JESSICA: It's often self-sustaining like the habits you're talking about. Our life habits form a self-sustaining system and then it took that external stimulus. It's not like an external stimulus somehow kicked you in the butt and changed you, it let you change yourself. DAVID: Yes, absolutely. I guess what I mean is ñ so let's continue with the cleaning example. The problem is that your flat is messy and your flat is messy because of these life habits, because your emotional reactions to all these things. If you do the appropriate emotional work, you unblock yourself on shame and anxiety around a messy flat, and you look around and you've saw you've processed all these emotions. You fixed how you respond to the problem and it turns out your flat is still messy and you still have to clean it. I think emotional reactions are what either ñ Iím making it sound like emotional reactions are all negative and I really don't mean that. I mean, that way is just ñ JESSICA: Oh, right because once you've dealt with all that shame and the anxiety and stuff, and maybe you've picked up your flat some, and then you come in and you have groceries and you stop and you immediately put them away and you get a positive, emotional feeling from that as you're in the process of keeping your flat tidy. The emotions can reinforce a clean flat as well. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is something that has always been one of my goals more than it is what am I active? JESSICA: No, I love this distinction that you're making here. Is it a goal or is it something I'm activelyÖ? The word goal is [inaudible]. DAVID: Yeah. So I think for me, one of the other problems, other than the relationships it starts, was me essentially realizing that my emotional experience, it wasn't bad. I mean, it wasn't great, but I wasn't actively miserable most of the time, but it also just didn't have very many positive features, which it turns out is also a form of depression. It's very easy to treat depression as just like you're incredibly sad all the time, but that doesn't have to what it can be like flatness is. So I think very much from early on in my mind was that the getting better at emotions wasn't just about not being anxious. It was also about experiencing things like joy, it was about being happier and I think having this as sort of an aspirational goal is very, very motivating in terms of a lot of this work and in terms of a lot of trying to understand all of this, because I think I don't want to be miserableóit only gets you so far. If you have a problem that you're trying to solve, and that turns out to be an emotional block, you have to actually wants to solve the problem. It's like, I think if you don't want to clean the flat, then it doesn't matter how much you sort of fix your anxiety around that. You're still just going to go, ìOkay. I'm no longer anxious about this messy flat. That's great,î and your flat is going to stay messy because you don't actually want it not to be and that's fine. JESSICA: Itís just fine, yeah. Who cares? Especially now. DAVID: Unless it becomes a health hazard, but yeah. [laughter] DAVID: Certainly like thereís ñ JESSICA: If you're affecting the neighboring flats with your roaches, thatís fine. DAVID: [laughs] Yeah. JESSICA: So you were talking about joy as an aspirational goal, but it's not the kind of goal where you check the box at the end of the year and declare yourself worthy of a 2% raise. DAVID: [laughs] No, absolutely not and I think for all big goals, really, I find that I want to be very clichÈ and say, it's the journey, not the destination. JESSICA: But it is! No, it totally is! DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: See, the word goal really irks me because people often use it to mean something that you should actually reach. Like write every day per month, that's a goal that you find benefits from hitting, but feelings of joy are, as you said, aspirational. I call it a quest, personally. Some people call it a North Star. It is a direction that can help you make decisions that will move you in that direction, but if you ever get thereÖ No, that doesn't make sense. You wouldn't want to exist in a perpetual state of joy. That would also be flat. [laughs] DAVID: No, absolutely. And I think even with big but achievable goals, it still is still quite helpful to treat them in this way. So for one, quite close to my heart right now, a goal of doing a Ph.D. I think you've got a 3-, 4-year long project in the States, I think it's more like 5 or 6 and if you treat the Ph.D. as it's pass/fail, like either you get the Ph.D. or those 3 or 4 years have been wasted, then that's not very motivating and also will result in, I think, worst quality results in work. Like the thing to do is ñ JESSICA: Like anxiety, stress, and shame. DAVID: Yeah. Yeah, very much so. [chuckles] So just thinking in terms of there's this big goal that you're trying to achieve of the Ph.D., but the goal doesn't just define a pass/fail; it defines a direction. Like if you get better at paper writing in order to get your Ph.D., then even if you don't get your Ph.D., you got better at paper writing and that's good, too. JESSICA: Because the other outcome is the next version of you. DAVID: Yes, exactly. JESSICA: Itís about who does this aspirational goal prompt you to become? REIN: This reminds me of the difference between homeostasis and homeorhesis. Homeostasis is about maintaining a state; homeorhesis is about maintaining a trajectory DAVID: That makes sense. Yes, very much that distinction and also, one of the nice things about this focus on a trajectory is that even if a third of the way through the trajectory, you decide you don't want to maintain it anymore and actually you're fine where you are. This goal was a bad idea or you've got different priorities now, possibly because a global pandemic has arrived and has changed all of your priorities. Then you still come all that way. It's like the trajectory doesn't just disappear backwards in time because you're no longer going in that direction. You've still made all that progress. Youíve still got to drive some of the benefits from it. JESSICA: Yeah. There's another thing that maybe it's an American thing, or maybe it's wider than that of if it doesn't last forever, then it was never real, or if you don't achieve the stated goal, then all your effort was wasted. DAVID: Yeah. I don't think itís purely an American thing. It's hard to tell with how much American pop culture permeates everything and also, I shouldn't say that although I'm quite British, I am also half American. So Iím a weird third culture kid where my background doesn't quite make sense to anyone. But yeah, no, I very much feel that. This idea that permanence is required for importance and it's something that every time I sort of catch myself there, I'm just like, ìYeah, David, you're doing the thing again. Have you tried not doing the thing?î [chuckles] But it's hard. It's very internalized. JESSICA: If you clean your flat and a week later, it's dirty again. Well, it was clean for a week. That's not nothing. DAVID: Yeah. I do genuinely think that one of the emotions that people struggle with cleaning. Certainly, it is for me. JESSICA: Oh, because it's a process. It is not a destination. Nothing is ever clean! DAVID: Yeah. JACOB: I think of myself sometimes as I want to be the kind of person that always has a clean home, as opposed to, I like it when my house is clean. JESSICA: Yeah. Is it about you or is it about some real effect you want? JACOB: Yeah. Is it about like the story that that I imagine I could project if I could project on Instagram because I'm taking pictures of my pristine house all the time, or is it just like, I like to look around and see things where they belong? DAVID: Yeah. I'm curious, does this result in your home being clean? JACOB: No, it doesnít and thatís sort of the issue that I'm just realizing is it's not actually a powerful motivator because it's just not possible trying to imagine that I could maintain homeostasis about it. It's not a possible goal and so yeah, it's not going to happen. REIN: Yeah. The metaphor here is it changes motion, but it's always happening so it's more like the flow of time than motion through space. JESSICA: Itís not motion, too. REIN: Actually staying the same is very hard to do and very expensive. DAVID: Absolutely. JESSICA: No wonder it takes all of our feelings to help us achieve it. [chuckles] DAVID: So the reason I was asking by the way about whether this idea of being the sort of person who has a clean home is effective is that this ties in a little bit to what today's newsletter was about. There's this problem where when you have self-images that are constructed around being good at particular things, being bad at those things is very much, it's a shame trigger. It's essentially, you experienced the world as clashing with your conception of yourself and we get really good at not noticing those things. You see this a lot with procrastination, for example, where you are putting off doing a thing because it does force you to confront this sort of conflict between identity and reality. I think sometimes, the way out of it is just to identify less with the things that we want to achieve in the world and just try and go, ìI'm doing this because I want to and if I didn't want to, that would be fine, too.î Essentially, becoming fine with both an outcome and failing to achieve that outcome is often the best way to achieve the outcome. JESSICA: So practicing editing in order to practice editing, whether you achieve writing a book or not, whether you're good at it or not, and it does come back to the journey. If what you're doing is a means to an end and yet not in line with that end, it often backfires because the means are the end. In the end, they become it. So having a clean house is stupid. That's not a thing. Picking up is a thing. That's something you can do and what I am picking up. True fact! [laughs] You don't have to worry about whether you can, are you doing it? All right then, you can! Whereas, having a clean house is not a thing. DAVID: Very much. This kind of ties into the comments about books earlier, where you were talking about how many books I read, and one of the things that I think very much stops people from reading books is the idea that oh God, there are so many books to read, I'll never get through all of them. JESSICA: If I started, I have to finish it. DAVID: Oh, yeah. I mean, people definitely shouldn't do that; books are there to be abandoned if they're bad. JESSICA: I read a lot of chapter ones. DAVID: Yeah. I have a slightly bad habit of buying books speculatively because they seem good and as a result, I think my shelf of books that I'm probably never going to get around to read, but might do someday and might not and either is fine is probably like a hundred plus books now. JESSICA: I love that shelf. I have big piles everywhere. [laughs] There's always something to read wherever I sit and most of it, I will never read, but it's beautiful. DAVID: I'm currently in a very weird experience where I write, for possibly the first time in my life, I have more bookshelf space than books. JESSICA: Huh, that's not a stable state. DAVID: No, no. This will be fixed by the time I leave this flat. The piles will return. JESSICA: You will maintain the trajectory. DAVID: Yeah. [laughs] Because I'm just reading. I can read these as many books because I just sit down and read and at some point, I will finish a book or I will abandon the book and both are fine. But I think if you treat this as a goal where your goal is to read all the books, then that's not the thing and also, I think people go, ìMy goal is to read a hundred books a year,î or I don't know how normal people guesstimates are. JESSICA: Itís like, is it really or itís their goal to learn something. DAVID: Yeah, exactly. JESSICA: And the means is reading books. DAVID: Yeah. I think if one instead just goes, ìI like reading and it's useful so I'm going to read books,î you'll probably end up reading a lot more than setting some specific numerical goal. Also, you run into sort of Goodhart's law things where if your goal is to read a hundred books in a year, great buy the Mr. Men set. But wait, it's not a thing in ñ the Mr. Men are a series of kidsí books which tells ñ JESSICA: With the big smiley face? DAVID: Yeah. Exactly, that's the one. [laughter] You can read a hundred of those in a weekóI assume there are hundred Mr. Men books, I don't actually knowóand youíll probably learn something. JESSICA: Then again, you might choose Dynamics in Action, never get through it, and then feel bad about it, and that would be pointless because you learned more from the introduction than you did from the Mr. Men series. DAVID: I don't think I've even opened my copy of Dynamics in Action. I think you recommended on Twitter or something and I was just like, ìThat does sound interesting. I will speculatively buy this book.î JESSICA: It's a hard book. DAVID: Yeah. It's far from the hardest book on my shelves, but it's definitely in the top. I'm going to confidently say top 20, but it might be harder than that. I just haven't done a comparative analysis and I don't want to overpromise. [laughter] JESSICA: The point being read books because you want to know. DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: Or sometimes because you want to have read them. That's the thing. There's a lot of things I may not want to pick up, but I do want to have picked up and I can use that to motivate me. DAVID: Yeah, and even then, there are two versions of that and both are good, actually. I think one of them sounds bad. One version is you want to have read it because you want to understand the material in it and the other one is just, you want to be able to say that you have read it and thus, you ñ and probably for the status game and also, just sort of as a box ticking, like I think ñ JESSICA: Oh, itís not completely wrong. DAVID: No, it's not completely wrong. JESSICA: You still get something out of it. DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: On the other hand, if you want to read it because you want to be the kind of person who would read it. I don't know about that one. DAVID: Yeah, I agree. I thinkÖ JESSICA: Then again, life habits. Sometimes, if you want to be the kind of person who picks up and so you fake it long enough to form the habit, then you are. DAVID: Yeah, absolutely and I read a book recentlyóof course, I didóby Agnes Callard called Aspiration, which I'm glad I read it. I cannot really recommend it to people who aren't philosophers, because there's a thing that often happens with reading analytic philosophy, where the author clearly has a keen insight into an important problem that you, as the reader, lack and the way they express that insight is through an entire bookís worth of slightly pedantic arguments with other analytic philosophers who have wrong opinions about the subjects. JESSICA: Half of Dynamics in Action is like that. DAVID: Yeah, I think it very complicated. REIN: Was it written as a thesis? DAVID: I don't think so. I'm not certain about that, but it might've been. It ended up being quite an influential book and I think she was mentioning that there's going to be a special issue of a journal coming out to recently about essentially, its impact and responses to it. But I think it's just genuinely that analytic philosophers had a lot of really wrong opinions about this subject. So the relevance of this is the idea she introduces the book is that of a proleptic value where ñ JESSICA: Proleptic, more words. DAVID: Proleptic basically, I think originally comes from grammar and it means something that stands in place for another thing. A proleptic value is what you do when you're engaged in a process of aspiration, which is trying to acquire values that you don't currently have. So she uses the example of a music student who wants to learn to appreciate the genre of music that they do not currently appreciate and they find a teacher who does appreciate that genre and they basically use their respect for that teacher as a proleptic value. They basically say, ìI don't currently value this genre of music, but I trust your judgment and I value your opinion and I will use your feedback and that respect for you as a value that stands in place of the future value of appreciating this genre of music that I hope to acquire.î So I think this thing of reading a book because you want to be the sort of person who reads that kind of book can have a similar function where even though, you don't really wants to read the book, that process of aspiration gives you a hook into becoming the sort of person who does want to read the book. JESSICA: That's like being the mountain for each other. DAVID: Yeah. JESSICA: In some ways. You're not going to get a view yet. You're only 10 feet off the ground, but meanwhile, just climb to climb because it's here. DAVID: Yeah. I'm not necessarily very good at being the sort of person reading books for this reason. Partly because there are so many books, I have so many other reasons to read, but yeah. JESSICA: Yeah, you're fine. You don't need more reasons to read a book. DAVID: [laughs] But I think two books that I have read mostly to have read them rather than necessarily because I was having an amazing time and learning lots of things reading them are Seeing Like a State by James Scott, which it's a good book. I don't think it's a bad book, but it is very much a history book that also has a big idea and there are like 70,000 blog posts about the big idea. So if you're going and wanting just the big idea, read one of the blog posts, but I'd seen a reference so many times and I was just like, ìYou know, this seems like a book that I should rate,î and my opinion is now basically that like, if you like history books and if you want lots of detail, then yeah, it's a great book to read. If you just want the big idea, donít. JESSICA: Right, because other people have presented it more succinctly, which probably happens with your Aspiration book that you talked about. DAVID: I would like it to happen with the Aspiration book. The Aspiration book is only a few years old. JESSICA: You've written a ñ oh, okay, so it's too soon for that. So you'll write about it, if you haven't yet. DAVID: Yeah, I havenít yet. Looking at it, it was published in 2018 and you have the paperback from 2019. So this is really cutting-edge philosophy to the degree that there is such a thing. [chuckles] JESSICA: Yeah. Oh no, what do you mean? [inaudible]. REIN: Seeing Like a State is. DAVID: Well, I've had this argument with philosopher friends where I was arguing that it was a thing and the philosopher friend was just like, ìIs it a thing, though?î Because the interesting thing about philosophy is just that it never goes out to date. People are sort of engaging with the entire historical cannon so the question is not does new philosophy get done? The question is more, I think is this less ñ? JESSICA: This isnít really a cutting edge. DAVID: Yeah, exactly. JESSICA: Itís more kind of a gentle nuzzling. DAVID: [laughs] Yeah. But also, is this more cutting edge than, I don't know, reading Aristotle's Nicomachean ethics? I don't know. JESSICA: Philosophy [inaudible]. DAVID: Yeah, I personally think that there is cutting-edge and this is on it, but plenty of room for philosophical dialogue on that subject if you can sort of dig Socrates up and ask him about it. [laughter] Yeah, and speaking of philosophy, the other book that I have read essentially to have read it rather than because I was getting a lot out of it was Wittgensteinís Philosophical Investigations where I essentially read it in order to confirm to myself that I had already picked up enough Wittgenstein by osmosis that I didn't really need to read it, which largely true. JACOB: This is the part of the show where we like to reflect on what we took from everything and just wrap things up a little bit. JESSICA: I have one thing written down. We talked a bit about who you are and who you want to be as a person, and how sometimes what you want to do is in conflict with how you think of yourself. Like, when you think of yourself as good at something, it's hard to be bad at it, long enough to learn better. It occurs to me that in our society, we're all about getting to know yourself and then expressing your true self, which is very much a homeostasis more than a homerhesis. But what have we tried not knowing yourself? What if we tried just like, I don't know who I am and then I can surprise myself and have more possibilities. That's my reflection. REIN: All of this discussion about happiness and pleasure, and diversion and striving reminds me a lot of Buddhist philosophy, or what I should say is, it reminds me a lot of my very limited understanding of Buddhist philosophy. Specifically, this idea that you shouldn't judge your life by the outcome of your preferences; that you shouldn't identify yourself with your wants and cling to the outcome of things. You can acknowledge that these things have happened and you can avoid unpleasant things, but you shouldn't be the owner of all of your desires. Instead, what you should do is measure your life by how well you follow the intentions that arise out of your values. JACOB: Yeah. Maybe to put another way, I'm starting to think maybe I could think of myself as the sum of all of the habits I maintain or don't, and try to think of outcome of those habits as what a lagging indicator, I guess, or as a secondary and think more of myself like, ìWell, what are the things that I find I am naturally doing and if I'm not, what can I do to just try to enforce it for myself that I'm going to do that more?î Or maybe I don't care. DAVID: So I'm not finding myself with sort of a single cohesive summation of the conversation, but I've really enjoyed it and there's been a couple of things I'm going to take away from it and mull over a bit more. I really liked the homeostasis versus homeorhesis distinction. I'd obviously heard the first word, but not the second word and so, I'm going to think about that a bit more. Sort of tying onto that, I very much liked Jessica's point of how a clean home isn't really a thing, you can only do cleaning and thinking much more in terms of the ongoing process than trying to think of it as a static goal that you are perfectly maintaining at all times. Slightly orthogonal in relation to that, but I'm also just going to look up Satir as an author and maybe read some of her books. [chuckles] REIN: Yay! DAVID: Because as we have established, always up for more reading. [laughs] JACOB: That should wrap up our Episode 223. I'd like to thank David for joining us and weíll see you next time. Special Guest: David MacIver.

Dr. Lesch was one of our earliest and most popular guests. We could not cover it all in one hour so he rejoined us for some additional discussions of what he has been working on lately. This includes local elections, hostage negotiations and upcoming publications. Transcript: [music] Justin Hill: Hello, and bienvenido, San Antonio. Welcome to The Alamo Hour, discussing the people, places and passion that make our city. My name is Justin Hill, a local attorney, a proud San Antonian, and keeper of chickens and bees. On The Alamo Hour, you'll get to hear from the people that makes San Antonio great, and unique, and the best kept secret in Texas. We're glad that you're here. [music] Justin: All right, welcome to The Alamo Hour. Today's guest is our first repeat guest. You may remember he had a giggle fit last time, and said that he met Bashar al-Assad on a dating website. Dr. David Lesch from Trinity University. Thank you for being here. Dr. David Lesch: I can't talk about that. [laughs] Justin: Before this, I said I was going to ask him things, because lately in our friendship, he has become very self-important in telling us things he can and cannot discuss in public settings. David: I can't talk about that either. Justin: Yes, I know. David: I'm going to be a great guest, I can't talk about anything. Why the hell you got me on here? [crosstalk] Justin: Most of this could just me being like, "Hey, tell me about," insert a thing or a person, and then having you turn red as you laugh and say you can't talk about it. David: Exactly. Justin: Like our previous conversation about your telephone, I could ask you about that, and you also would have to say, "I can't talk about that." [crosstalk] David: Well, they're listening on the telephone right now. [crosstalk] Justin: I think they are. David: Probably are. Whoever they are. [crosstalk] Justin: Probably going to advertise-- [crosstalk] I don't know. David: Here, I am talking about it, so you already got me to-- Justin: On most of my episodes, I normally go through like a top 10 list and what are you into and what do you like. I generally know that about you, but what have you been up to during the shutdown? David: Writing my next book. Justin: Yes, what's the title? [laughs] It's not ambitious at all. What was it? David: It's the history of the Middle East from the Prophet Muhammad to the present. Justin: 78,000 pages long. David: I'm through five pages, man. At this rate, in the 23rd century, I will be done. Justin: I asked you how you broke down what to include and what not to include, and you use the word triage. [crosstalk] David: It's a historical triage. Absolutely, I've done that before. You just can't go over every little thing, or else it would be 78,000 pages. This will be about 350-400 pages. Oxford University Press will be putting it out. Justin: It'll be $250. David: Only for you. Only the hard back copy. [crosstalk] Justin: You had one book that was approachable and at normal price. [crosstalk] David: That's only if I don't autograph it. If I autograph it, it's down to $2 or $3. Justin: I paid $7.80 for your Syria book on Amazon. Does that make you feel bad? David: [crosstalk] Oh, used? The thing is, you got it used. [crosstalk] It was only out for like a month. It's like, "Okay, who read it and sent it back?" or, "Who didn't read it and just sent it back?" Justin: What a jerk friend, "I'll buy your book." [crosstalk] David: Yes, exactly. I was like, "Geez, maybe I can make some money off of this," [laughs] because it's like $15. Justin: Is that the only book you're working on now? David: I think one at a time is enough, thank you very much. Justin: No, I think you said you were working on more than one. David: Sometimes I am, but this time no. This is focusing on that. I've got a lot of writing done since I'm at home more often than not, not traveling as much, obviously. I'm halfway through. It should be published in 2022. I'll...

From the baseball field, to the Nascar track, to the tennis court, in sports, ads can be found everywhere. Brands and sports have been linked together through sponsorship for decades. And now, with the rise of social media and influencers, athletes can create even more profitable relationships with brands than ever before. But a sponsorship should be more than just a way for a brand and an athlete to make money. Today, more than ever, that message matters. The story you tell makes a difference. And the purpose behind a brand is what is drawing people in and converting them to loyal customers. At POC, that belief is what has been driving the company since its founding, and it is influencing its unique content strategy, which is successfully driving people to its website and into its ecommerce channels. POC is a Swedish company that makes top of the line protective gear for athletes around the world. David DeMartini is POC’s Global Chief Marketing and Digital Officer and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he explains why the purpose- and data-driven content strategy the company has  devised is working, and what other brands can learn from what they have built. Whether it’s more of a focus on original, serialized video, or a different approach to working with influencers, POC’s marketing strategies have far outperformed traditional methods. Learn how and why on today’s episode! Main Takeaways:Propose a Purpose: More than ever, consumers are driven to brands that have a clearly-stated purpose or mission. But simply having a purpose written out on your website is not enough. Brands that develop an ambitious purpose, stress test it, and look beyond the problems of now to understand how their purpose can drive them in the future are the ones that will succeed.Don’t Be Old School: Athlete sponsorships are not new in the marketing world, however, brands like POC are finding creative ways to expand those partnerships. By investing in different marketing channels like video series, movies, and other long-form, engaging content, brands can set themselves apart and tell stories in ways customers will connect with. More Than The Data: Every organization should be using data to guide organizational decisions, but data should never be the only factor. Data should be used in conjunction with what you know about your customers on an intangible level to create a balance that is analytics-based but still feels human.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hello, and welcome back to up next in ecommerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder of mission.org. Our guest today is David DeMartini, the Chief Marketing Officer at POC. David, welcome to the show.David:Hi, Stephanie. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.Stephanie:Yeah, I'm really excited to have you too. I just went into a Wormhole watching some of your guys' videos with the skiers, flying down the mountain at lightning speed and I was like, "Could I do this? No, probably not." But they were great to watch.David:Yes. Oh, well, thank you. And I sure you could do it. We have an amazing roster of athletes that do a great job of telling our brand story through their actions and our goal is to do everything we can to keep them safe. So, it's fun to create content or let them create content and it helps us tell our story.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. We'll definitely be diving into all of that in a little bit, but first tell me or anyone who's listening, what is POC?David:Yeah. So POC is a Swedish company that was founded in 2006, 2007 timeframe. We are a protection brand. We're the world's leading protection brand, currently servicing athletes and participants across bicycle sports and snow sports. And so, we have a really strong mission and purpose to save lives and protect those pursuing their passion, and enable people to really find more joy in life through using our products to keep them as safe as possible when they're doing the things that they love.Stephanie:Yeah. And you have very nice looking products as well. I haven't been snowboarding in a while, but I'm like, "If I was, I would want this helmet here and they even have mouth guards nowadays, which is mind blowing to me." I mean, very helpful, but I have not seen any other companies. You have a helmet with a... Is it called a mouth guard? What is the word for that now?David:Yeah. Well, on the snow side, we have a couple of different disciplines that we service. And I think the product you're referencing is one of the helmets we have on the race side of our business. When slalom skiers or even some GS skiers are running gates. There's a chin bar that attaches to the helmets to make sure none of [crosstalk] end up smacking them in the face as they're making their way down the course. So, always looking for ways to better protect our athletes in our customers. And that's a pretty handy service with that chin bar because taking a slalom gate to the face is not much fun.Stephanie:Yeah. It does not sound like it. I also looked at them like this would be perfect for my two and a half year old, and he is always falling and hitting his face somehow, or his chin I'm like, "You guys need some kids versions of this."David:Yeah. That's a good point. We have an amazing children's line that we call poquito-Stephanie:Oh, cute.David:Kids helmets and there's some really cool safety pieces built into that. We found that the most accidents that happened with kids on a ski slope or on a bicycle are scenarios where someone larger than them, whether it's a larger kid or an adult just simply doesn't see them. And there's a collision that happens. So we have a really great visibility story built into our kids' products, but we hadn't thought about the chin or face protection for the children, but maybe we [crosstalk 00:03:28]. Yeah?Stephanie:Yeah. So when I was looking through your LinkedIn [inaudible 00:03:33], I also saw that you have a background in media and sports, and I was wondering what drew you over to POC?David:Yeah, so I of cut my teeth at an agency in Colorado working across an amazing book of brands that the agency Backbone Media service at the time. And it was really an amazing opportunity for me because I got to really dig in and understand some of the challenges that brands have really all maturity level, where we're trying to overcome. Everything from a larger, more established brand, like Eddie Bauer or YETI Coolers, all the way up to startups looking at how do they just continue to raise some money to propel their businessDavid:And so, as I was working through and learning and absorbing and working with all these amazing people at Backbone Media, I was really fine-tuning the things that were interesting to me and knew I always wanted to be in marketing and direct-to-consumer but really found an understanding of what specifically in those areas were interesting.David:And then after about five years with Backbone, POC was one of the clients of Backbone for a long time. And one of the accounts I worked on and an opportunity came up to join POC internal as the marketing director for North America and I took that and I've been lucky to find myself in some opportunistic positions within POC. And my skillset has allowed me to rise to the ranks here as well which has been really fun and really rewarding.Stephanie:Yeah. That's great. I also love how POC has the same messaging across all the platforms. It was very clear about what you guys stood for. So tell me a little bit about... Did that draw you in when you saw, "Here's our purpose. Here's why we're here." How did that impact your decision to jump over to work with them?David:Yeah. I think that one of the key attributes that you see as particularly important and something that a lot of brands in the outdoor space focus on is purpose. And the term purpose can be applied to business or the way that a company operates in a lot of different ways. But I realized early on that a trend that I was seeing with the brands that I worked with at Backbone Media, the ones with a solid foundation, a clear purpose and a really clear and ambitious but not to the point where the brand platform and the mission of the vision didn't really mean anything. Those are the companies and the brands that were doing the best.David:And so, I quickly realized how important that was. And so, as I thought about what was next, I knew that, that was core to any organization that I could see myself at, for an extended period of time. And so I made that one of my priorities and starting to look around for whatever was next for me was that purpose has to be there. And I have to really be able to connect to that purpose in a meaningful way because if I can't, in a lot of ways you're trying to fake it to make it, and that just gets really taxing and is tiresome and hard to do. And it comes back to, if you can act to the purpose it's very easy to find the motivation to really give everything you have to the business and these days you have to do that.David:So, POC has had it. It's a really amazing a brand platform and admission and vision. That's been with us since day one and credit to the founder, Stefan Ytterborn who created the brand in 2006, to address a problem that he saw in the form of... His kids were becoming ski racers. And he looked around at the head protection at the time and said, "This doesn't seem all that great and I think I can do this better." And had the foresight to realize that spending the time and really ironing out what he was there to do and what their mission and vision looked like, was crucial to make sure he built something that could continue to live on and be successful.Stephanie:That's great. Your kids always seem to be a driving force sometimes with businesses or new products. And I love that story, having an actual reason to develop something and being like, "Oh, everyone actually needs us in this industry. And it's not good enough. I'm going to fix it right now."David:Yeah. He saw a problem that was specific to him and where he was in his life and realized that, he's probably not the only one feeling this way and really created something special and it's been a fun ride since then and continues to do well. So, again, it goes back to the core purpose of the business is real and meaningful. And that's really valuable and making sure that we make the right decisions on a day-to-day basis.Stephanie:So, since you've been able to see many brands, especially why you were working at the agency, what are tips or best practices around maybe a new brand coming up with their purpose, but then actually following through, because I think that's a tricky thing with a lot of these new companies popping up it seems like a lot of them say they have a purpose or here's what we're doing, but it doesn't actually come through. It's just like the messaging. You don't see actions behind it. Is there any advice or things that you saw when you were at the agency of like this work and this did not work, everyone should not do it this way?David:Yeah. It's a good question. And I think the answer to that can take many different forms but really what you're looking for is something that's balanced in something that is, it can stand the test of time. And so what I saw at Backbone was it used to be that you could identify a problem, find a solution for it, and then take that and run with it. And I think that that worked for a long time and that was the traditional approach to starting a business. But I think the consumer today has evolved so much to where they look for more than just helping them solve a problem. You really have to be invested in the solution and in the problem itself to a point where it's authentic and real.David:And so I think for anybody who's thinking about starting a business and can't stress enough, the importance of making sure you spend the time and put the work in on building a brand platform and then pressure testing that through all different mock scenarios thinking about where you're going to be in five years, 10 years, 15 years, and beyond. And making sure the verbiage you use in the core of that brand platform can remain constant. I see if a new company is... It's almost like you can't be too focused on the problem you're trying to solve, you have to think beyond that problem, that future problems, and make sure that your approach and what you're creating can solve future problems as much as it can solve the problem here and now.David:And it's a really hard thing to do, and it takes a very specific approach and creative mind. And it's not easy to achieve. And so I feel lucky to be part of an organization where, we were able to achieve that. And the founders that started POC went through that exercise and it's cumbersome and difficult. But I think it's super important.Stephanie:Yeah. I completely agree. It reminds me of... I don't know if you've heard of the, Clock of the Long Now, it's a 10,000-year clock, and it's all about encouraging long-term thinking. And every time I start thinking about longer-term thinking, and where is this headed? I always think about that clock, it's my motivation.David:Yeah. I think that's a great connection point. And it's really hard to visualize and come up with mock scenarios as to what could happen in 10 years because who knows what's going to happen in 10 years. But I think just going through the exercises and putting the time and the effort and we'll help you find the right balance between to immediate here and now, and then on the other end of the spectrum is... I don't know if you know a guy named Scott Galloway, but he uses the term, yogababble where you use so many buzz words and it's so conceptual that it actually completely loses all of its meaning. You got to find someplace in between there that is balanced and can stand the test of time to a certain degree.Stephanie:Yeah. That's a good mentality. I saw you have another title, which you didn't mention in the intro, and I'm not sure why, of executive producer. I was looking at the one video, American Downhiller, which is really good. I only got to watch 10 minutes of it, but I think it's a good segue Into some of your marketing and content strategies because the video was so well done. I mean, is it on Netflix? If not, it should be. Tell me a little bit about how you guys go about thinking about developing videos.David:Yeah. I'm really glad you brought that up because that's a really, really fun and amazing project that we just launched to the world earlier in... I think it was in October actually. I was going to say November but, launched in October with a world premier here in Park City, Utah, and then a distribution program with U.S. Ski Team and skiracing.com. And like I mentioned, we got our start in ski racing and it's incredibly important in Colorado business. Compared to other snow sports categories, or the bike category. It's relatively small, but it's so important because in the athletes... Really on any level that are competing or skiing gates on a consistent basis.David:I mean, that's where the stakes are at the highest. That the speeds are incredibly high. The snow conditions are ice essentially these days. You have skis with incredibly sharp edges and the possibility of things going wrong is quite high. And so, we work really hard to continue to innovate on behalf of the ski race community and find different ways to apply the different technologies and safety features that we develop to their world. And so, through the years we've become really close to this ski race community. Like I said, it's not a huge community, but it's very tight-knit one. And one that we're very happy and proud to be part of.David:And over the years, looking for opportunities and being very close with the U.S. Ski Team, we saw this story that was really amazing and hadn't really been told on a mass level around the men's speed team, and how brotherhood really formed through, I guess you could say it through unique adversity in the sense that no ski racing in the U.S. is not what it is in Europe. When you go to Austria, you go to Norway, you go to Switzerland, ski racing is... I mean, the Hanukkah in Austria is it's like the Super Bowl, it's a huge deal there. They have amazing massive fan bases and so being an American and on the American team, when you're competing, most of the races are in Europe. And so the challenge is that the U.S. team had to overcome were unique.David:And I'm not really qualified nor want to say that their challenges were harder or worse to overcome than some of the Europeans, but they were just different. You're not able to travel home on the weekends. You're spending so much time with your other teammates and it really cultivated this brotherhood that organically evolved into this story that became... They took the name American Downhillers, and that term became a tool to represent this brotherhood and the function of some of the veteran guys on the team working to help develop and help some of the younger guys that were coming up to the speed program navigate some of these difficult scenarios that they were in, where you're in foreign country, you're not able to see your family. You're not able to go home on a consistent basis.David:And really that story was just so amazing that we were working with skiracing.com, and we finally said, "Hey, let's try and tell the story." And so, it came to life and I believe it was 2017 where we started to do some short episodes in conjunction with skiracing.com. And we did that for two or three years, five minute, eight minute, 12 minute episodes, focusing in on different elements of this American Downhiller story.David:And towards the middle of 2019, we said to ourselves, "Well, these episodes are great but we haven't really done anything like telling the story from start to finish. Is something we haven't done and it would be an amazing piece for the ski race community." And so, we partnered with skiracing.com and a woman named Claire Brown, who's an amazing producer and has an amazing team of filmmakers. And she's been a part of the ski race community since she was a little kid and she raised competitively through college and I believe she was an All American. And as a staple in that industry and community. And so, we worked with her to tell the story. And so we were able to tell the story from start to finish and pull pieces from the different episodes that we had. And it turned into this really amazing piece that, gives some insight and some behind the scenes look into what it truly means to be an American Downhiller and then some of the challenges that they had to overcome.David:So a really, really fun project that Claire and Elizabeth Reeder, who's one of our Sports Marketing Managers, did an amazing job facilitating and putting together, and we're super proud of it. And we're excited we're going to continue on with this theme and this first one was focused on the men's team, and there's equally as interesting and amazing stories on the women's side. And we're excited to continue to tell these amazing stories that happen in American ski racing, and the next one up we'll be focused on the women's team.Stephanie:That's great. So, where does this content live? I definitely want to finish it. I mean, like I said, it seems like it should be on Netflix or something. It's very, very well done, very professional. It gets you right from the beginning with all the skiers hopping in and saying what it means to them. Where do you guys put this content after it's all made?David:So the distribution for it... We launched a lot of amazing new ski race product this season. And so, we had an objective to reach and engage and build our connection with the ski race community. So the initial rollout plan with this was to work with the U.S. Ski Team work with skiracing.com. and obviously we would support it as well, but we have it living on YouTube and we've seen really great results from an organic grassroots distribution plan. We are looking at some film festivals throughout the country over the next few months and have submitted it in a few of those and we are looking at some larger distribution. There's possibility that some of it might run on NBC, this winter, which would be amazing.David:And we're looking at the subscription viewers or platforms like Netflix and Apple TV and Amazon as well. And trying to figure out how we can get it up there. The goal with the larger distribution platforms is... Again, the story is what's most important and the story can help inspire the next generation of ski racers or particularly American Downhillers. There's a utility function to that and we want to make sure that, that's available to any and everybody that wants to see it on an ongoing basis. So there's a long tail distribution plan to this as well, to make sure that anybody who wants to learn and understand this story has the ability to do that through some of these larger platforms.Stephanie:That's cool. It seems like there's definitely a lot of angles. You've got the partnership thing going on. You've got... Yeah, being able to tell the story holistically, like you wanted to and then the long tail of possibly be able to sell products as well when people see them, yeah. At the perfect place, perfect time while they're watching it.David:Yeah. And we were very intentional about... We didn't want this to be something that felt like we were artificially trying to place product throughout it, the commitment was to the story. And like I said, we've been a partner with U.S. Ski Team for so long that now our product is visible, but you'll also see product from our competitors. And that's okay. We feel like if the story's great and we can help facilitate telling it we don't need a ton of branding. We don't need POC products sitting next to every interview or we don't need the traditional product placement in these stories, feel like we're doing a service to the community by facilitating telling it, and for us, that's what we're here for. So, we take a bit of a different approach to content than say some brands do or some brands previously have.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, how do you guys approach product placement? Because that seems like a very... I mean, it's always been around, but I see a lot of brands doing it way better now. I was just talking about it, the Netflix series of one about organizing and how well the container store did after that. And I don't remember really being slapped over the head with the branding, but it was more me wanting to check into it afterwards if like, "Well, what were they using to organize their entire closets?" And it was very organic. So I see brands doing a much better job now when it comes to product placement and partnerships around that. How do you guys explore that avenue?David:Yeah. So our sports marketing organization does an incredible job and partnering with athletes and getting our product on athletes has been core to our marketing strategy since day one. And so, again, do think it comes back to the purpose conversation we had and we are not delivering on our purpose if we are not supplying the best in the world with our products, because we truly do believe that they're the safest products out there. And so, as you mentioned it, when you take an approach of... We want personalities, we want athletes on our roster that have similar beliefs but of course their own brand and their own way of executing on those beliefs. But we want people who stand for innovation, progression, and we want to make sure that the partnerships we develop with athletes, we truly are helping them pursue their passion and helping them progress the sport that they've dedicated their lives to.David:And so, we have an amazing list of a roster of athletes that we're always looking at and adding to. We have some amazing development programs as part of our sports marketing strategy. We have a three layer level approach. We just launched a revised regional or grassroots athlete program that we call the Aspired Collective and that is solely intended to give up incoming athletes across both snow sports and the bike world. Give them opportunities and help them continue to progress in their careers to one day be the next superstar. And so, doing what we can to support the communities and support the activities in sports that we service through supporting talent within those categories you naturally find yourself with your product on the right people more often than not.David:And so, again, it's a little bit... We try and take a maybe a less manufactured approach and we don't go out and say next year we think so-and-so is going to be the best ski racer. So we've got to get our stuff on this person, this guy or girl, and then the next year it's someone else. And so we go after, we look for longer-term partnership opportunities people who truly believe in what they're doing and partnering with us helps them do what they're doing better. That's the stuff we look for.Stephanie:Yeah. It seems like athletes sponsorships, that's like the original [OG] influencers. Influencers are big now, but the sponsorships of athletes, it seems like it was already going on for a really long time. But what seems really hard to do is figure out how it's driving sales or how it's influencing your marketing campaign. How do you guys think about that when you're setting up these partnerships, you're picking out what athletes you want to work with? How do you think about what the end results should be outside of just wanting to work with a great person of course and making it long-term? What are some metrics you hope to achieve with these parties?David:Yeah. I think it's a really good question because I think the rise of influencer marketing has put such an emphasis on follower number and engagement metrics and all these things. And I think what we've seen is that those things are all important and I'll get into how we look at those, but you can't focus so much on just the numbers to where you lose sight of the individual, the personality, really the non-tangible that an influencer or an athlete or any partnership brings to the brand. And we've been very careful to... We have an objective to be results driven and measure what we can and take a data-driven approach of course but we also want to make sure we don't over index on that to the point where we lose some of the intangible stuff.David:So, when we look at an athlete, a lot of times their Instagram follower account or their YouTube page is an important metric and in the equation but they're also three or four other metrics that are equally as important. So we look at personality, we look at opportunity to have a longer-term relationship with this person. We look at how they compete, where they compete, these sorts of things and make a very balanced call on whether or not they should be somebody we should pursue or not pursue. But to answer your question about measuring influence that athletes or influencers have, it is difficult. And there are some data tools that we have, whether it's being smart about how you distribute content for them to work into their communication outreach with specific links and stuff that we can track through our website.David:But a lot of that stuff is specific to a single campaign or a single program and there's really not a great way going back to the equation that we look at, there's not a great way to measure the intangible stuff, but we know it's important and we know it's working and it's a core element of our positioning in the marketplace. And so, we measure what we can, but we also try and be real and be okay with... There's simply some things that are just hard and difficult to measure and we trust ourselves to say, "This is this things that aren't measurable, we can..." I trust our people and we trust ourselves to say, "This is worth the investment and it's providing a lift to our brand in a way that we just simply can't measure."Stephanie:Yes. What are some of your favorite marketing campaigns that you've done that you really remember, or that were most successful?David:Oh, that's a good question. Favorite marketing. The American Downhiller is definitely up there just because it was so different and new, and we'd never produced a feature like them but we've already talked about that one. Earlier this fall, we launched a signature series, excuse me, around Fabio Wibmer who's an incredibly talented mountain biker, whether it's trials or downhill riding or, dirt jump riding. He is arguably the most popular mountain biker in the world right now and we created a signature series with him that we launched earlier this fall. That's really, really cool and we took the approach of, "We're going to create the product for you, but we really want you to create the marketing and the messaging and launch this product in your voice."David:And that was a really fun approach to take to this because one, it took a little bit of the stress off us internally, and two, it allowed for our audience to hear a message that they're used to hearing from us, from somebody different, which I think in a lot of ways was quite refreshing and something different. And Fabio's team is incredible at creating highly engaging video content and his YouTube following is massive. And so, we basically said, "We'll help you make the product. We'll support some of the distribution of the content, but we want you to create that content." And so it was a different approach for us and a pretty fun one because it brought a different tone of voice to a launch than we're used to having.Stephanie:That's really fun. I mean, and a really good point because I can think of so many brands who work with people in their industry and they end up squishing their creativity by saying like, "This is our brand messaging. This is how it needs to be done." And you can tell you're like, "This is not Oprah Winfrey talking. This is not that Oprah does that." I don't know, but they squish the creativity of the artist or the influencer by all their rules. And it ends up not being very organic and then no one's following actually ended up connecting with it.David:Exactly. And the value that these athletes and influencers and anybody that we partner with bring to our brand is they have their own community and we want to help them build their own community. But if we come in and say, "You need to talk to the community that you've built in our voice and in the way that we speak and over-engineer that, one, their community is going to say, "This is stupid. I can tell this isn't new, or I can tell that this isn't the person that I committed to either through a click on follow or some other way." And if we give that freedom to the person to communicate the points that we're trying to get our audience to understand, and in the way that feels natural to them it's going to come off better, it's going to be a better end product in terms of the creative and again, it's going to resonate with the audience more effectively.David:And we lean on our athletes in our roster of partners very heavily because they're good at what they do. And for us to come in and say, "We know how to do what you do better," it doesn't feel right and I don't think it's right.Stephanie:Yes. So you had a good quote that I saw, but I'm probably going to botch it. So you can just tell me if it's wrong. It's all around data and you were saying that the data that you gather around your customers is your true North. And I wanted to hear a little bit about, what data do you look at and is that influencing your products, or how are you using it day-to-day?David:Yeah. I think that you got the quote exactly right so, thank you for that. And I guess maybe a little counterintuitive to my last point of the balance between tangibles and intangibles, but when we do have data available, we need to make sure we're using that. And we are still a growing organization and we are far from totally dialed in terms of our data management and pulling and curating as much data as we possibly can. But we have gotten a lot better at doing that, really the past three or four years. And part of being able to actually use your data effectively you have to start with your systems and your tech stack and we've been really lucky to be able to partner and use Salesforce suite of services with Commerce Cloud, Marketing Cloud, and Service Cloud.David:And the decision to run with those platforms was specifically so that we could start to organize our data and get our systems to speak better together and learn more about our customers. We have all kinds of different touch points with these customers. And the fact that Salesforce Commerce Cloud can speak with Marketing Cloud, and even with Service Cloud when we get a customer service inquiry that scenario really at least gives us an opportunity to maximize what we know about our customers. And so, like I said, we have a long way to go to be where I would say we're A+ rating in terms of data management,` but every day our team gets smarter and we make right the right decisions and we learn more.David:And I think in terms of using the data as your true north and bringing it full circle back to the idea of balance, you got to be able to analyze the data, understand what the data is telling you, but then put that information or that insight into the context of the other things you know about your customer base. I think one of the things I feel very lucky in that, we are a relatively small team, a marketing team of 25 or 28 people across both the marketing team and the digital team. One of the benefits of that is that, we don't have a lot of redundancy and every individual in the organization you naturally have to gain an understanding and you got to know our customer relatively well for almost everything that we do.David:And so, that contextual understanding and knowledge of our customer, coupled with some better data management and insight going actually does give us a pretty good understanding of our customer. What's important to them and how we can deliver on that. Whereas I think a lot of times in bigger organizations I've seen, if you have a lot of not necessarily redundancy, but a lot of very specified positions that do one thing and do one thing very, very well, it's a lot harder to understand the big picture and gain of an accurate profile of the contextual things that go along with your customers. And so, I guess what I'm saying is in a larger organization, it's very easy to look at the data and only the data and it's sometimes hard to bring your head up and look around and say, "Okay. Well, this is what this is telling me about this specific point or insight. How does that connect with what might be happening over here?" And so there's of course the challenges with being a smaller group but I there's also a lot of benefits and that's definitely one of them.Stephanie:Yeah. I completely agree. I mean, thinking about how do you get to that holistic approach where... I mean, I've been at larger companies before and things get siloed and you have your customer service team over here, and they're probably hearing so many good nuggets from customers about new product features they want, or something that might help the experience better or the unboxing experience. And a lot of times that they just get stuck there and you don't know how to incorporate into your new product launches and stuff. And so, I hear a lot of companies, especially smaller ones that are very quickly growing, experiencing issues like that, where things are all siloed and they don't know how to look at the data, but then also take a step back and use your gut and be like, "That's actually sending us in the wrong direction, or that's not really our customer who's saying that."David:Exactly. Yeah. Being a small group allows us to... Our customer service manager can easily stand up and walk across the room or these days, tap our Digital Director on the shoulder and say, "Hey, three of my team members said this and they're hearing this. What does that mean for what you do?" Those conversations are really, really important. And since we're lucky. It's a little easier for us to facilitate those just because we're a smaller team.Stephanie:Yes. So what digital trends are you excited about? Where are you guys headed over the next three years in the world of ecommerce?David:It's a good question but there's lots of them. I think one of the things that I'm seeing in and we're actually acting on is that, consumers are... Their expectations have evolved to a certain point to where the traditional tactics in terms of driving a sale, there's more options there. I think, you're seeing a lot of brands think about the needs of their customers and really looking at it and saying, we need to be able to add more value than we're looking to extract from our customer base. And to do that, you have to really think about what are the challenges or the struggles, or the other complimentary problems you can solve for your customers on behalf of them to help strengthen that connection they have with your brand.David:And I think what we're going to see is that, we're going to see a lot less mass trends, I guess, in a sense or mass tactics in the sense that brands that are going to be successful are the ones that are going to focus on building a community that is tight-knit has a very meaningful value prop for the members of that community. And ultimately places a little bit more emphasis on lifetime value and holding onto the customers that they have and building a better relationship with them versus turn and burn customer acquisition bring them in, make a sale, move on to the next.David:And so, we're really excited about that because we have a lot of the ingredients necessary to build a meaningful community and we have to do some ideation on this idea of providing more value than we're looking to extract, but it's a new set of challenges and one that I think is a little bit more fun because you're becoming a better partner to your community and keeping hold of that and looking for ways to solve other problems for them and make your brand more appealing and one that they want to connect with on a deeper level. And that's really fun, and so we're excited about that.Stephanie:Yeah. That gets back to the whole idea of long-term thinking. And yeah, I think the companies that'll rise above the rest, especially with so many coming out right now, we're going to be the ones who think longer-term like that. Think how to build that community and really engage your customers. That's not just driven on that quick conversion.David:Exactly. Yeah. And if you look at the mega brands out there right now that are being successful, they're looking at that exact equation, obviously in a different way than we are, but you see brands like Peloton and Lululemon's acquisition of Mirror, they're looking to check a series of boxes, whether it's vertically integrating owning the hardware, developing a reoccurring revenue model. All these things that compliment and go hand in hand with a tight-knit community of consumers that are truly committed to you as a brand.David:Yeah. I think literally Lululemon's one of the most amazing examples because they do such a good job of developing a community, creating these ambassador programs towards, there's one up here on main street, you walk into a store and you look around and the imagery they use our local ambassadors. You look up on the wall and you see your friends up there and it's like, "Wow, one, I didn't know they were in a massive, that's cool." But also to be that smart to actually integrate local ambassadors into their communication and retail is just such a cool thing and makes the brand feel truly invested in this area [inaudible] do that-Stephanie:Yeah. I didn't know they did that. That's really cool.David:Yeah. And so they're all in on the community thing, and I think this acquisition they made of this mirror product is a great way to continue to facilitate that at scale. And it'll be really cool, not really case study, but brand to follow over the next couple of years and see how they continue to evolve because they truly are the best in the biz.Stephanie:Yes. I agree. All right. Well, let's shift over to the lightning round, brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready to go, David. All right.David:All right. [inaudible] this might be tough.Stephanie:I've done a done, I'll have to cut you off.David:Yeah. Cut me off. Don't be shy.Stephanie:All right. What's up next on your Netflix queue?David:Oh, Netflix queue. I don't know the name of it, but there's a film series about the Formula One circuit that has been recommended to me and I wish I could remember the name, but it follows some of the drivers Formula One and it's supposed to be really, really good. So-Stephanie:Drive to Survive.David:That might be it. I think you're right. It saved in our account, which is very helpful. Thank you Netflix. That's the one where we're super psyched to see next.Stephanie:Right. That sounds cool. Yeah. I think someone on our team actually recommended that as well. And I think they told me to watch it from a business perspective. I'm not really sure why. I need to check it out.David:Wow. Well, you have to let me know what you think.Stephanie:Yes. What's up next on your travel destinations when we can get out into the world and travel again?David:Man, that sounds so nice. Doesn't it?Stephanie:I know. That's why I asked it.David:Yeah. My wife and I have been talking about... And we originally were going to do it for a honeymoon, but things didn't work out the way we want it to at that trip, but we still have not skied in Japan. And that is on our list for when things settle down, is to go and Japan such an amazing place and it's such a great culture that we're super excited to experience that a little more in depth than my business trips have allowed. And you would also get an incredible amount of snow. So this seems quite good as well.Stephanie:Yeah. Well, that sounds really nice. And then you can go and hang out in the hot bath with this monkeys. Have you seen that?David:I have seen that. I think my wife might be more excited for that than she is the actual skiing.Stephanie:Oh, I'll go with her then.David:Yeah.Stephanie:I went to Japan and I missed that because we weren't in the right area and that's very sad. I'm like, "How fun would it be to take a bath monkeys?" I don't know. Maybe it's a tourist trap, but either way I want to try it.David:Yeah. It sounds pretty entertaining.Stephanie:Yeah. What one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did?David:Oh, man. I mean, so much. It's a good question. Well, here now, I'm getting ready to take the next level of avalanche certification and understanding how avalanches work so that we can ski and travel through the back country safely. I have some training on that, but there's a lot more that I don't understand. And so that is fresh on my mind as the snow is starting to fall and I'm excited to continue my education on understanding snow pops and risk assessment and making sure that we can [inaudible] snow, but do it safely.Stephanie:I mean, that's a good one. And that is a unique answer. No one else has said that so far. So David-David:Thank you.Stephanie:All right. And then the last one, what one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?David:I mean, the thing that comes to mind feels a little bit like a cop out just because it's been so talked about, but I think 5G is really hard to ignore and when that fully rolls out the mobile trends that we're seeing are going to become even more important and pointed. So, it's going to put so much more emphasis on the computer you carry in your pocket rather than the one that you sit in front of it at the desk. We and a lot of other brands are still working on how do you crack that device in a way as meaningful as it could be in maximizing the value to the business that comes from a mobile device. So, I think that's going to continue to become more and more important and it's a tough one to solve.Stephanie:That's a good answer. Or it's not a cop out because no one else has said that so far. I thought you were going to say COVID-David:Oh, right.Stephanie:And then I was going to be like, "No. [inaudible 00:51:09]." So-David:No. I didn't think of that. It's the new normal, I guess.Stephanie:I'm glad. Yeah. Exactly. All right, David. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and POC?David:Yeah. So, come find out more about us at pocsports.com. Can learn more about our product offering, our amazing roster of athletes and the things that are important to us and want to moment just to thank the amazing team of people, not just with marketing but everybody here involved with POC. Like I mentioned, they are as committed as anyone can be to why we exist and that permeates through our business and so many different ways on a consistent basis. And the people here and the talent that they bring and the drive and passion that they bring truly is what makes us an amazing organization. So, would rather say, thank you to them I guess than promote myself, if that option is okay.Stephanie:That option is okay. That sounds great. Thanks so much, David. Yeah. It's been great.David:Yeah. I appreciate it, Stephanie. And great to speak with you.

David Sonn is the Founder and President of Arc Intermedia, a HubSpot certified, digital only agency that focuses on “customer acquisition using digital strategies and digital tactics.” David ran a web development company for 13 years but found that he and his partner had become “production monkeys,” delivering a commodity and competing with offshore developers. “You never want to sell or have to build a model based on price,” he says. Ten years ago, when people started requesting Search Engine Optimization, David found his niche. Intrigued by the ability to precisely measure results, he founded Arc Intermedia -- and got out of the website building business and into the business of building businesses.  David may have started his agency “really slow and really small,” but he didn't start “really cheap.” He hired the most experienced SEO and paid search experts he could find, people who could lead practice area development. He says, “When you're a somewhat small agency that we are, every person counts.” Hiring and investing in the right people is critically important. In this interview, David provides a wide range of tips on building a strong digital business. Marketing initiatives need to start with strategy. When clients try to tell Arc Intermedia what they want the agency to do, David says it is critically important to understand “the good, the bad, and the ugly” about that business, to get to know the client well enough to discover things of which even the client may be unaware, and to know the client's goals – what the client is trying to accomplish – before building the strategy and implementing the strategically determined tactics. As many people in marketing say, content is king. Marketers need to know how to leverage that content through SEO, distribution, credibility, and across social platforms. While a variety of tactics can be used get leads, to drive people to a website, to fill out a form, to give them “stuff,” people often resist filling out forms because they don't want the sales calls that immediately follow. David recommends giving people something of value in exchange for their personal information.  The key to building customer relationships is nurturing potential clients through broad exposure on a variety of platforms and providing a variety of (non-sale) interactions. Use marketing automation to nurture clients to help close the deal. Clients often come to Arc Intermedia and request adding a particular tool, such as SEO, to their marketing mix. David reminds us that today's digital marketing requires an integrated process to succeed. SEO, social presence, publication on an industry website or blog . . . these things “loosen the soil” and build the familiarity and credibility that makes a paid search or display ad work.  Customer acquisition is what “moves the needle for the bottom line of a company.” Paid search has evolved to a high level of sophistication. Precise targeting produces a wealth of data. Advertising on social platforms – Facebook, Instagram, Twitter – should be backed by “great strategy.” Knowing when to pivot, why you need to pivot, and having the ability to pivot is critical.  David describes paid search as a “sprint,” and SEO as a “marathon.” He feels that it is important for both parties to set their expectations realistically about what's going to be accomplished when. He requires SEO contracts to be for at least 12 months – SEO takes that long to show a return. After a year, when he shows clients where they were in month zero and what has been accomplished in the year that followed, “the contracts basically renew themselves.” SEO on paid media optimized for terms and topics in high demand? He says, “It's infinite traffic if you do it correctly.” David can most easily be found on his agency's website at arcintermedia.com.   Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by David Sonn, President and Founder of Arc Intermedia based in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the podcast, David. DAVID: Thank you. Hi, Rob. How are you? I appreciate you including me today. ROB: Great to have you here and have a little pre-call with you before this. Tell us about Arc Intermedia. What is this agency, and how did it get started? DAVID: Arc Intermedia is what I call a digital only agency. Why I need to make that designation is I've been around the block for a while, so I have experience in traditional advertising and that kind of thing, but with this agency, when I built this agency 10 years ago, I wanted to hyper-focus only on digital strategies and digital tactics. We basically will come to a customer that needs more customers. I don't care if you're Apple Computers or you're a two-man band working out of a garage; everybody needs more customers. So we built this agency on customer acquisition using digital tactics. ROB: Got it. How long has the business been around? DAVID: I founded this 10 years ago. Oh, by the way, we're 10 years old this year. ROB: Happy birthday. Anniversary, whatever you want to call it. DAVID: Thank you. [laughs] Yes. ROB: The digital tactics even over that time have changed a lot. What were the tactics on Day Zero when it's you and – were you by yourself? Did you have partners in the earliest stages of the firm? DAVID: I'm going to back up and tell you a little different story. I promise, promise, promise to get there. Before I had Arc Intermedia, back in 1996 I founded one of the first interactive firms in Philadelphia. When we went into business, and I had a partner at the time, we built websites. At the time, 1996, a lot of companies didn't even have websites yet. There was no roadmap whatsoever. We thought this was a fantastic idea. We thought, hmm, this internet thing has a chance to stick around. So we built a company around it without a real plan. We raised some money from friends and family and just got after it. We made a lot of mistakes, but it was all good. 13 years of success proved that out. But I did find that when I had that web development company, we basically became production monkeys. Clients began to tell us what they wanted, what colors, this, this, and this, and we just became builders, not thinkers or advisors. When you're in that space and you begin to try to build a commodity like that, you're now competing against the whole world. And oh by the way, it's really hard if you think you're going to compete against offshore solutions on price. You never want to sell or have to build a model based on price. I began to look at the business and say, hmm, is this really what I want to continue to do? Near the tail end of it, we began to get more and more requests for SEO, search engine optimization. We were building these websites, but no traffic was coming to them. Clients wanted us to do SEO. I began to get my hands involved in SEO, and then jointly, paid search – way, way, way back, the origin of that was – I don't know if you remember the GoTo Network? It was the beginnings of all of it. ROB: Oh yeah. DAVID: I got my hands involved in the GoTo Network, and I got real excited. I'm like, look, we can build out some strategies. We have some money, and we instantly can begin to drive traffic to these websites. Then I had clients calling me up and telling me that they were getting all these sales leads and things were changing, and what was going on at the website? That was a light bulb moment for me. I really didn't want to be involved in the web building business anymore. I wanted to be in the business building business. I got real excited. Being an entrepreneur, I started to get that itch again. I'm like, I built this company and it's now been 12-13 years. I think it's time for me to bust a move into something else that I want to do. This customer acquisition piece – the part that actually moves the needle for the bottom line of a company – became very exciting to me. Then I did, and now back to your original question, I began to explore some of these original tactics much further. I didn't see any companies out there specializing in it. The agencies of the land, the traditional ad agencies, still wanted to spend your money on radio and TV and that kind of stuff and things that couldn't be measured. As scary as digital is in that you can measure right down to the penny, to the click, to this, to that, that actually was really, in some weird way, extremely enticing to me. That we could see it, we could measure it, and I could stand up and find the client and say, “I succeeded” or, hopefully not, “I failed.” But for some reason that was an incredible, incredible attraction to me. I decided that it was time to dissolve the web development company, and I launched Arc Intermedia, but this time I decided to start really slow, really small on purpose. It was myself and Mike Maier, who came over with me. It was just the two of us, and we started the company. We hyper-focused on some of the basic tactics of the day. There was SEO; it was much different than it is today, but it was SEO, and there was the paid search and that piece. Then as I began to see what was working for customers, the different technologies and tactics that were evolving, I began to build the experts around it. I went out and got one of the best SEOs, Ron Sansone, in the Philadelphia area, and he began to build out our search practice. From him, I added more people with SEO experience, paid search experience. Rasheed Hendricks heads up our paid advertising department, and he's just absolutely fantastic. That piece is ever-evolving. And then, as you probably have heard from doing many of these interviews, content is king. You need to know how to leverage content. Content can be leveraged from an SEO standpoint, from a distribution standpoint, from a credibility standpoint, from a social standpoint, all of it. You and I were talking a little bit about how we're HubSpot certified. Katie Schieder on my team is in charge of content and content marketing, and she does a fantastic job with her team. There's a lot of different pieces, and I know I'm maybe sounding like I'm rambling right now, but hopefully I answered your question. ROB: One thing I hear in there is a strong recognition and appreciation for a team of experts in the different subject areas. One thread I want to pull on a little bit that's unique about your story is you mentioned in your previous business, the web development shop, that you had investors. We talk a good bit about investors, but what we most often talk about on this podcast is people who are proud and grateful to not have investors, and maybe sometimes a chip on their shoulder because they know other people who have raised money and have gone out of business. What did you learn from having investors, and what would you say to other people who think they wish they had investors? You mentioned it was friends and family, so we didn't go out and raise $100 million, but still there are entailments to that. DAVID: There is nothing – nothing – sexy about having investors. Zero. Now, I was super fortunate that we ended up raising money through friends and family. And oh by the way, that was because no bank would touch us. When we had a plan to build a web development company back in 1996, every bank says, “Oh, that's fantastic, but I need a 150% collateral that we are going to freeze for every dollar that we give you.” If I had a 150% collateral that I could do, I wouldn't be sitting at that bank looking for money. That was just silly. So obviously that never went through. But we were fortunate that we were able to do it through friends and family and a lot of people who supported us. I will tell you, there's an incredible extra weight on your shoulders because you don't want to fail them. In my mind there was no chance, ever, in any way, shape, or form, that I wasn't going to return every dollar back to the people that invested in us – and then some, of course. My success was definitely going to be their success, and I was going to make sure that happened regardless, even if it meant that I was going to pay that money back personally. I was going to get it done. When you're taking VC money, that's a different approach and you can't always do all of that. But having investors is not sexy or anything that you should really go for unless you absolutely have to. Now, when I had Arc Intermedia, the one thing that was to my benefit was that I was going to start small, and I'm also now a little bit older, a little bit wiser. I self-funded my whole thing. The beauty there is, I never had anybody standing on my shoulders. I never had anybody that I had to answer to in that regard. So my advice would be try, try, try to do it on your own or figure out a way to do it on your own or try to figure out where you can get investment from people that trust and believe and love you, and then the VC thing is separate. Last. ROB: Right on. I think I would perceive in the web world, when you talk about the '90s, you'll hear a lot about some of the sticker prices people paid for pretty simple websites by our standards. You'll hear half a million, a million, 10 million. You mention competing with offshore now and this race to the bottom. Certainly it has been cheaper and cheaper to get a pretty good website. You can pay a kid from a high school and get something pretty decent. You can pay a pro less than you would pay one person in a year for sure. You don't see that same race to the bottom in the marketing world. You can't get 10 times as much marketing for the same price as you could 5 years ago. What do you think it is that keeps it from becoming a race to the bottom where some high school kid can hop out and just crush your B2B marketing? DAVID: Because there's so much more that goes into it. The tools now are very sophisticated with paid search and all the data you can get back and the targeting you can do, if you're going to do advertising on social platforms – Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all that. But at the end of the day, there has to be some really great strategy in there, and there has to be the ability to pivot and the eye to know when to pivot or why you need to pivot. Then the other part of it is the customer. Can the customer tell you what their cost of acquisition needs to be? Or can you then prove it out? For example, Rob, if I said to you, “Hey, you give me $1,000 bucks, and for every $1,000 bucks you give me, I'm going to give you $10,000 back in business,” you would do that all day long. You would figure out how many thousands you could give me so I could give you tenfold back. To answer your question, I think that only happens if you really have the people that have the expertise and the daily eye on this stuff to really know what works. The customer acquisition piece and the journey and all the points in between, it doesn't happen by chance. It's not by luck, and it's also not subjective. You used websites as the example. We can sit here and argue that the homepage needs to be a shade of blue or maroon or what have you, and maybe we're both right. Who knows? But at the end of the day with digital marketing, either I'm driving results and giving you a positive return or I'm not. I think that's the difference. ROB: That makes sense. There's infinite rounds of competition, and there's a level of spending that's always going to meet the value. The value of what people buy online keeps on going. People are buying more stuff online, and you need smarter people to drive those tools as you go. You mentioned some key folks that you have on your team, and you had clearly built a team before with your web dev shop. How did you think about assembling your team differently as you were building your second business? DAVID: This is probably an old adage that you've heard before, but it's always hire slow, fire fast. Thank God, I've not had to fire anybody at Arc Intermedia. I've got that great of a team. That's actually one of the things that I really do hang my hat on. In 10 years, we've never had anybody leave but one person, and it was more or less just a career change in that case. We still remain friends with that young woman to this day. But hiring the right people on the front end and making an investment in the right people is critically important. What my process was – and I'm going to use the SEO one as an example because it's clean and easy – I began to see in the marketplace that SEO was critically important, but I also could see that I could build a business around it. When I wanted to go and build the SEO, I didn't want to just hire a mid-tier person or an entry-level person or something where we were going to, together, learn it on the fly. Rather, I thought the most important or better move was to make the investment in a senior level person who had been doing it and we could build off of that person and let that person build out the practice, if you will. That's my approach. When you're a somewhat small agency that we are, every person counts. We're mean and lean and there's no place to hide, and everybody has to be able to show for what they bring to the table. My entire team, basically, is built with fairly senior level people that I would say are experts in their field. It's just been a much better approach than what I've seen others do. ROB: How do you think about positioning? When you have a senior person, that SEO offering also has to be a little bit of a premium offering. SEO certainly can have one of the highest long-term ROIs, but it can also be one of the slowest marketing tactics to start to bear fruit. How do you walk a customer along expectations around the sticker price you need to show them to bring the team that you have to bear on SEO? DAVID: You actually used my word, expectations. You've got to set the expectation correctly up front. As a joke, we say SEO is the marathon, paid search is the sprint. If you begin to lay out and set those expectations, both parties can get their head around what's going to be accomplished when. Part of that is, with SEO, we will not take on a contract that's less than 12 months, and the reason being is it is completely unfair to judge us on anything less than 12 months. 3 months in, if you were to look at what we were doing, you'd say, “You guys don't know what you're doing” or “This is a complete waste of money.” And they'd be right, because there wouldn't really be the return in 3 months. Wouldn't really be the return there in 6 months. But what you've got to do is look at a plan that's been executed correctly over a 12-month period, step back and say, “This is where we were month zero. Now look where we are.” Honestly, the contracts basically renew themselves because once you can show what can be delivered with SEO – and the beauty of SEO on paid media – it's infinite traffic if you do it correctly. If you're optimizing for terms and for topics that are in high demand, you can drive a great deal of traffic. And then if you have set up your customer journey correctly on the website and begin to show those conversions and whatever it may be, whether it be ecommerce or registrations or sales leads or what have you, it kind of sells itself if you do it correctly. Now, as far as a high ticket, SEO is a very difficult industry. It's getting a bit better, but we're constantly up against the – I don't know what to really call them outside of where they begin to make promises for SEO for $200 a month. We're always fighting against that. But our price point – and you've got to remember it's all labor-based, so people need to get paid. Especially when you have senior level people that you alluded to, they've got to get paid and you've got to offset those costs. So yeah, good SEO is not cheap, but I will tell you this: look at an SEO contract for 12 months, the cost of it, and compare that to some kind of media play. Compare that to a TV or radio campaign. Or even sometimes the money we really need to move the needle in paid search just because the search terms may be very costly, and if you don't have X amount of dollars, you're spitting in the wind. You'd be foolish to think you're going to get any kind of return because you can't drive the volume to get the return. In the grand scheme of things, SEO is actually not expensive if you're comparing it correctly. ROB: Right, it just doesn't track as quickly. “I did X dollars of SEO this month and it generated this amount of results.” You have to be more patient than that. We have talked a good bit about SEO. I know that is where you started, but I know you've also been thoughtful about layering in other service offerings to the business. What have you added in, and how did you reach those decisions of starting to embrace something where a lot of times agencies will partner on offerings they're not ready to do or ready to do yet? DAVID: I often find clients will come to us, and sometimes they will have a need. The need may be that they need more sales leads or they need to sell X amount more widgets. But often they come to us with a tactic in mind. For example, “We need to do SEO.” “Why do you need to do SEO?” It's just because that's what they've been told, that's what they've heard, that's what they may not be doing. They may not be coming up in the search results, so they think that's what they need. But really what we're seeing today now in digital marketing is it's more of what we call an integrated approach. It's the SEO, it's the presence on social, it's the being published on an industry website or a blog that begins to loosen up the soil so that when we do finally hit them with a paid search ad or a display ad, they've seen us before. There's some kind of credibility that's been built up just because they've seen us in multiple places, and we've nurtured them along and we can close the deal. Many of these things now work so hand-in-hand, and again, we always want to start strategy first. Don't tell us what to do; tell us what you're trying to accomplish. Then once we understand the goals and we're all on the same page with the goals, we'll build out the strategy. Then the strategy will dictate the tactics. That then leads into, what did we think made sense to bring in-house? With SEO, the counterbalance was the paid search. We had started doing some paid search from the very beginning, but not to the level of what we're doing today and what we needed to. That was a no-brainer, to make sure we headed up that department with paid search. Paid search is nice because people are looking for your exact service. In fact, paid search is one of my favorite forms of advertising because it's people actively looking for what you have. You just need to get in front of them. Conversely, people who are a bit more passive or are not actually searching, we need to prospect. And the best way to prospect is through display advertising or social advertising and those kinds of things. Again, having that piece of the pie just made a ton of sense of another piece that we need to layer on. Now, we can talk all day long about different tactics of driving people to a website, to filling out a form, to be giving them stuff, but the place that I see people now fall short of is you've got the sales lead; now what? The customer fills out a form. One of the reasons they don't want to fill out a form is because they know immediately they're going to get a phone call from a salesperson, and that's the last thing they want. So you've got to look at it a bit differently. “Hey, fill out this form and I'm going to give you something of value.” I always say you've got to give something to get something. Maybe they fill out the form to get some kind of a free tool or a download or a piece of advice or a consultation or something like that. But if you're really, really going to do this and you think you're going to get a return on that initial investment, you'd better be able to nurture. The nurture piece comes in with this marketing automation. For example, I know I've already said it before, but we're HubSpot certified, and that platform allows us to do a lot of different things. We can do email marketing and we can manage the workflow all the way through. If they open this email and they click on this, we know that they're demonstrating X interest in something, and we can then take them down the next path of providing them the next piece of content. We can nurture and we can build that relationship without the phone call, without the salesperson getting after them. So having the marketing automation piece was something we absolutely needed to bring in because we were doing such a fantastic job with driving leads on the front end that we needed to have the nurturing piece on the back end. ROB: It seems like you not only are comprehensive in the different services you provide, but you have to be comprehensive in your understanding of the business to be able to nurture leads along. You can get a first conversation, but to be able to nurture and build trust and credibility with somebody else's customer is not something you can get from just an onboarding form for a new client. How do you get to that depth of knowledge where you're actually building trust on behalf of a business that's not yours? That's a challenge. DAVID: You're right, it really is. I'll tell you, we get down into the weeds to the nth degree of some stuff that I never thought I needed to know about, from tuberculosis testing to hospice care to minor league baseball to all kinds of stuff. If you're willing to make a commitment to a new client – and to be honest with you, we do say no. There's times that we're like, “This isn't going to be a fit for us for XYZ reasons.” But when you finally say, “I am going to commit to you,” commit means I've got to learn your business, and I've got to find the skeletons in the closet. I've got to understand the good, the bad, and the ugly. Honestly, it's a constant learning process. We often will do onboarding with a client and we'll try to learn and glean as much information as we can, and as we launch programs, we begin to understand that what they were telling us is completely wrong. And they didn't even know it. So there's that piece of it too. Also, there's times where we'll do pilot programs of things just to begin to gather data. I'd like to believe that our team is very smart, and we have a lot of experience to begin to make some great guesses. But at the end of the day, we're not always right. You've got to look at the data. You've got to really look at what's happening in a given space and then be ready to pivot and think about things completely differently than when you went into it. But it's ongoing. There's no end to it. I'm still learning about tuberculosis and all those kinds of things. [laughs] ROB: It's more and more valuable for more and more people to be marketing online. David, when you are looking at what is next for you and what's next for Arc Intermedia and marketing in general, what are you excited about? DAVID: One of the things I'm excited about – we're in a horrible global pandemic, and one little tiny, tiny good thing that's come out of this from a digital marketing standpoint is I'm now having clients who we've been talking to about this for a long time understand that the lion's share of the budget really does need to start going to digital. Digital can deliver. It can be measured, and it's the one actually bringing in the leads. Just in this past 6 months, we've had a number of clients tell me that they're going to do major shifts in their budget for 2021 more towards the digital space. Why that makes me excited is if you give me more budget, I can do more things. I can expand out that integrated approach. I can go deeper in different tactics and strategies that we maybe have been pushing for that we couldn't just straight up because of budget. We can get after more of the content marketing piece, the content distribution piece. We can begin to see how we can tie different paid tactics to some other things that we're doing on the site. We can also look at different offer types and incentives to help ring the bell. ROB: That makes sense. The margin for execution on a small budget – there's just not a lot of room for mistakes or a lot of room for experimentation. I can absolutely see where having real digital budgets is a meaningful thing. David, when people want to track you down, when they want to connect with you and with Arc Intermedia, where should they go to find you? DAVID: Of course, we have that wonderful website that we've just done some updates to. We've even got our anniversary video out on the homepage, so I would direct everybody to arcintermedia.com. A lot of people find me on LinkedIn because that's a super easy way. Occasionally some people may find me over on Twitter. But I would say website. ROB: [laughs] Sometimes we find a different version of ourselves over on Twitter. DAVID: Yeah, I think I'm pretty good on that front. [laughs] For the most part. You won't me on Facebook, I will tell you that. ROB: Got it. Just have to have a shadow account to manage some of the client relationships? [laughs] DAVID: We have a love/hate relationship. I love the data that Facebook gives us to market on behalf of our clients. I'm not super fond of participating on Facebook myself. ROB: I understand completely. Even after they ban QAnon, who knows what's next? Or if they'll actually accomplish that. Who knows? Anyhow, David, good to connect with you. Good to have you on the podcast. Congratulations on 10 years of Arc Intermedia, and really of making a living going out and killing your own food for much longer than that with the web dev shop before that. DAVID: Yes indeed. Working without a net. ROB: [laughs] Indeed. Thank you so much, David, and be well. DAVID: Rob, I really appreciate your time. Thank you. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Kindness is a Fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5 22-23). In the Old Testament (I and II Samuel), Jonathan showed kindness in his relationship with David (Yes, the one that killed Goliath and ruled Iseral as a King for over 40 years). Jonathan and David were best friends. One day, Jonathan spoke to his father, King Saul, in regard to David’s life. Why you may ask? Well, King Saul was jealous of David, so he wanted him dead! However, kind-hearted Jonathan reminded Saul of how reliable David had been to him. And because of Jonathan’s kindness, David’s life was spared. Later on, David remembered the kindness shown to him by Jonathan and in turn, showed kindness to Jonathan’s son. Sometimes, it may be hard to show kindness. Nevertheless, you’re to be kind to everyone, even when you don’t feel like it. I challenge you to do a good deed for someone, today! Ephesians 4:32 “Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”

“Be Like David? Yes and Absolutely Not!” 2 Samuel 1:1-16 September 27, 2020 — Reverend Chris Harper I. Be ready (1-10) II. Be genuinely grieved (11-12) III. Biblically fear the Lord (13-16) IV. Be like David? – Yes and absolutely not!

On this episode of Quiet Light, David Newell talks about when a SaaS business earns a revenue-based multiplier. David is one of our colleagues who just wrote a guide outlining everything he knows about SaaS valuations. Tune in to hear his thoughts on how SaaS businesses have unique needs, the ideal scenario for revenue growth, and which valuation metrics to use when scaling.   Topics: Revenue-based multipliers. What happens when SaaS businesses scale. The ideal scenario for revenue growth. SaaS valuation metrics. Why there is a bias towards monthly plan revenue. Comparing scaling a business to dating. Takeaways from David's guide. Transcription: Joe: I understand you spoke with our colleague David Newell about when a SaaS business becomes a listed at a multiple of revenue instead of multiple of discretion earnings, how'd that go? Mark: Well, there's an interesting dynamic when it comes to SaaS businesses, right? E-commerce is pretty straightforward. We have some pretty good metrics that just show that vast majority of e-commerce businesses will be measured as a multiple of their SDE but SaaS businesses, especially on larger levels, we see transactions happen as a multiple of revenue even in some cases when you have a business that is not turning a profit or is currently EBIDTA zero or close to it. And so there's a big question out there, what are the criteria that allow you to apply a revenue multiplier versus an SDE multiplier to a SaaS business? Obviously, this makes a huge difference, right? I mean, if you're multiplying your revenue by five, that's going to be a much bigger number than multiply SDE by five, or four, or three, or whatever. So SaaS valuations can accelerate incredibly rapidly. I mean, it's breakneck sort of whiplash valuations that happen. So I talked to David; I sat down with David. He had just finished writing a 15,000-word guide that really picks apart everything he knows in SaaS valuations and that's a lot that he knows. And he goes into how do we first make this determination between a revenue-based multiplier versus an SDE multiplier? And then the second question, which is again equally sort of murky if you haven't been doing this as long as David has, is where do you then find the multiplier because the ranges are a bit broader than we see in other sectors. And so he goes over the approach he takes for it and then we started talking about some of the individual metrics as well, which are going to apply to all SaaS companies whether it be revenue based multiplier or SDE multiplier. If you are a geek when it comes to valuation talking this is the podcast for you. It's definitely meaty. We get into it pretty in-depth on this. But if you really enjoy this, take a look check out the guide that he wrote. It's now published. It's going to be available on our website. It's also available for PDF download. Share it. Discuss it. Reach out to David. Chris Guthrie would be another great person on our team to discuss these items with. He knows SaaS extremely well. And frankly, anybody on the team, we've all worked in this space ourselves but really, when it comes to our resident expert, we look to David first and foremost and part of it is because of the guide that he put together here. Joe: Let's go to it. Mark: Hey, David, thanks for coming on the podcast. I know you've done a couple of these before, right? David: I have, yeah. Mark: Well, cool. I'm glad to have you back on and I'm excited to have you on this week because you finally finished, and I shouldn't say finally because it wasn't even expected of you but you put together a very comprehensive guide on valuing a SaaS company. How long is it? David: It's a jargon. I think it's about 15,000 words. We shouldn't say that just in case that thwarts people from reading it. I think we're going to do a distilled down version of it. Mark: It's kind of like a mystery novel, how to value a SaaS guide. You know I wrote the ultimate guide to website value years ago when that was what we were really talking about is valuing websites and I think that was a 25,000-word guide. I started out thinking this should be something I can hammer out in a week and it turned out to not be a week. It was much longer than that. It took a while to put that together. And I know this took me a while to put together but the stuff in here is really an authoritative guide on the valuation principles behind a SaaS company. David: Yeah, it's a strange terrain this SaaS valuation conversation because unlike other business models that everybody's familiar with is not purely an earnings-driven model. It's not all about seller's discretionary earnings. And you see that so much in kind of public markets, they speak about SaaS businesses based on revenue multiples and then obviously in our kind of business brokerage landscape, you see it more around SDE multiples and so there's this kind of big confusion in this cross terrain between both buyers and sellers about what is my SaaS business worth and on the other side of the table is how much should I pay for it. And so there's a surprising amount of similarities in the valuation logic between both but what I wanted to point out was the crucial distinctions between them and why they're there to really help people understand that both buying and selling. Mark: Yeah, and I think this is an interesting conversation because we talk so much about valuations at Quiet Light Brokerage. And I've said in the course I put together on how to sell an online business for six, seven, or eight-figures I spent a lot of time on the valuation side and trying to dispel the myth that the valuation formula creates the value of the company as opposed to the valuation approaches and formulas and methodologies are really a predictive exercise more than anything else. And that really, when you boil it down into kind of a philosophical standpoint, it's really a measurement of expected return on investment for the buyer discounted by risk or mitigated by risk. And so you can have other valuation approaches that are completely valid. I know in the web hosting space, which is where I cut my teeth in the brokerage world, that was a revenue-based multiplier as well, because you had a lot of strategic sort of sales going on. It was typically 10 to 16 months of revenue was the average range that we were seeing so I'm interested to get into this. Because I know when I talked generally to people about valuations, I always have this asterisk of but SaaS companies are different and it's kind of a mystery box. So let's talk a little bit about that right there. We'll start with the revenue-based multipliers. Why are we using revenue with SaaS companies and are all SaaS companies going to be valued on their revenues as opposed to SDE? David: Yeah, that's a great question. You hit the nail on the head with what you said there which is that it comes all down to expected return on the asset. And I think the way to think about it is actually kind of in the life cycle of starting a SaaS business. If you imagine starting as many you do people SaaS businesses out of their bedroom; a lot of entrepreneurs see a problem, decide they didn't like it, wants to code a solution to it, put in their own money into it, then they might bring in a developer to start helping them out and they start putting their own money into start scaling it. They get friends as customers and sooner or later they are 10,000 in MRR or so forth and then they start to scale a little bit beyond that. And so initially you're in this period of scaling often with your own capital. And this is kind of a lot of the businesses that we see in the very early stages; kind of like homemades, bootstraps, sub million dollars in ARR businesses. They can remain focused for a large part on earnings and that's why they get they tend to craft some seller's discretionary earnings-based valuations. A lot of these SaaS businesses, for example, one doing 300,000 ARR might have about a hundred thousand in seller discretionary, slightly more multiple of that. Now, what happens? Typically a SaaS businesses look to scale particularly as they kind of arrive more towards a million in ARR and above is that typically what's the case is quite a lot more infrastructure is needed to be brought in to solve the biggest challenges of SaaS businesses which is churn. And that infrastructure is a lot of sort of customer success, it's a lot of additional development in terms of creating better onboarding, and it's putting a lot more sort of infrastructure around the business to really mature and allow it to scale from a small business into a much, much, much larger one, which can happen very quickly, arguably faster than any other business model. And so what happens it seems to me has been the case is that it has become acceptable and standard within the SaaS establishment to at this kind of sub million and arriving at a million in ARR level be able to say we're going to sacrifice our earnings in the near-term, in the short term in order to now chase absolute scalability in the business. And this is acceptable, more so in SaaS than any other kind of business, largely because we have a recurring revenue model with unit economics that are stable once you have churn in place that allow you to do that race up and scale and then cut back on that expense and immediately just be accruing very, very, very significant profitability in the business. And so the quid pro quo for you, reducing profitability of what was a relatively profitable small SaaS business to a now significantly unprofitable or flat profit business is that you'd have to start chasing revenue growth significantly. And so to your point, Mark, about having this kind of expected rate of return, buyers basically say we'll let you run to EBITDA or EBIDTA 5% margins in order that you're going to start sharing consistently 40% to 50% to 60% year over year growth or higher while still going between a million in ARR to five million in ARR, to 10 million in ARR, and 20 million in ARR and beyond. And so that is really the thinking behind why you get to a revenue-based multiple with businesses because the expectation is that eventually a SaaS business will mature and become extremely profitable. A great example of that is something like Salesforce which is now striking off enormous amounts of cash but for a long period of time before it wasn't. And so a lot of the businesses that you see come to market eventually even IPO still have this same kind of fundamentals and eventually, their hope is that they do become very profitable businesses. So it all kind of descends really back from that and I think that some of the question marks around valuation methodology is where is in this kind of hundred thousand in ARR to three million in ARR level which is, of course, where we do a lot of business and where a lot of other market participants are; people listening to this looking to buy and to sell often are is figuring out where are you in a lifecycle, the life journey of the SaaS business, like what is your aim and what are you trying to achieve? And that really informs what the valuation method is for the business. Mark: So as you said there, and there's a lot in there to unpack but the tradeoff or the requirement if you're going to be running at a low EBIDTA or a low profitability or even zero profitability, and I have seen this, by the way, we get these messages from private equity all the time saying we are actively seeking out X, Y, and Z with these characteristics. And I've talked to private equity that is looking for SaaS companies where they said we are not concerned about the EBITDA, we're not concerned about the profitability, but the expectation there is revenue growth at that. I would imagine, though, that there's got to be some other elements in there as well that; let me back up a little bit, we have the revenue growth, but I'd mentioned the expense structure needs to also look at this as being a growth-driven company where the expenses are being driven mainly towards growth. I can't imagine a scenario where you wouldn't necessarily see that but what happens if the growth is minor? So you have a company who is maybe a 500k ARR and they're growing and they're trying. So they're investing heavily in advertising, but their cost of acquisition has skyrocketed. Or they've invested in a large sales team to do onboarding, but they just have not figured that out yet. At what point can we start to say it's not working or is that a solution or somebody just needs to wait in order to sell the company, how do we start to make that discernment in that kind of squishy middle territory where we don't have the clear revenue growth, but we still have the low EBITA? David: 100%. That's what we call the struggle and there's a lot of SaaS businesses in that exact pocket. And the decision for the management team really is what do we do to grow or do we park this and move on to something else? And the former can involve all kinds of different decisions. Obviously making pivots within the business, like changing terms of software products, customer base, also looking to kind of raised capital, the venture capital or angel just to try and get into different channels or find capital to source it from there. And you more or less, Mark, have to push towards that fabled grace, because that's the only available kind of exit option to you from there. Or you go the other way, which is; and you see there is a lot of businesses we're promising and then they haven't reached the cap in the market or a competitor outcompetes them or management loses interest or whatever, and they start to trail off, go flat, and you end up with what's called zombie SaaS which is a not particularly affectionate side while it's probably still a lovely business. And then the option there is more or less you have to cut back all of that operating expenditure in the business in order to restore some earnings and try and exit at typically a much lower multiple of revenue still, but considerably lower that looks more like a normal of an EBITDA type sale and just cut your strings basically and move on to the next thing. And so many businesses, of course, we all know how hard it is to grow and scale any kind of business are in that struggle and trying to figure out that option. Mark: Yeah, I love going through with people the basic framework that we created of the four pillars of value. You want to mitigate your risk, you want to have good growth, make it easily transferable, and have great documentation. Well, that's second pillar of growth is so easy for us to say, right? You want to have great growth and everyone's thinking, well, yeah, of course, I do. It's a lot harder to do. Let's talk about the ideal scenario here. You have a company that is growing strongly and let's say that you're in that one to three million ARR range and we're seeing that ARR grow rapidly so we can apply a multiple to the revenue here. I know what people are thinking, what sort of multiples can we apply to them? David: Yeah, so this is when we flip into a slightly different structure but with very similar dynamics to how we think about business value at Quiet Light and the way we model multiples but the difference, the departure is the starting point. So whereas we in the private buyer side particularly the earnings businesses, we draw upon the several hundred previous transactions we have. We know where the average multiples are for businesses with certain characteristics in nature and we can call on that data set. To start with the revenue multiples side of things you have to again go find the data set and the data set to pull on is generally the public market. And so the best thing to do to start with is actually go look at like an index of cloud companies; SaaS companies that are publicly traded on Nasdaq and so forth, and use that as the benchmark for that kind of revenue multiple that normal publicly traded SaaS businesses are trading at. And that could be something like 10 times, 11 times forward multiple around probably what it is right now. And then, of course, naturally, that's a multiple that's appropriate for a large publicly listed company so already you're saying like, well, that's not really relevant to my smaller private business. So the first thing you have to do is make a public to private discount on that and so there are varying schools of thoughts around what that kind of discount is. It can be somewhat arbitrary. There's a lot of private equity companies out there that speak about what they do, and they have portfolios of private companies that they pour. The received wisdom is it's anywhere between 25% to 30% immediate haircut for being a private company. So you can come down off that 11 to something like eight, for example, and you have what feels like a large private company SaaS business should be trading at. And then we get more into the territory of what we do Quiet Light and what you're just talking about, Mark, in terms of the different four pillars of the business and you start to adjust based upon where this business is aware of the SaaS business we're talking about is relatively strong or weak compared to businesses of its size and businesses of its nature. So three million in ARR is a great example, you'd actually expect on average businesses at that level and this kind of valuation exercise to be growing probably at something like 50% to 60% year over year because it gets harder and harder to grow faster and faster, obviously, with scale. And so if it was much larger, say like a hundred million, you'd actually reduce it and say the average business at a hundred million ARR would be growing at about 30% year over year. And so already you need to compare what's the revenue growth rate of this business versus the paired average for other similar-sized businesses. And it's again a case of going through all of these different classic criteria that we normally do; revenue growth, churn, lifetime value, diversification, all of this classic operational metrics that go back in kind of normal business logic land and just comparing where does it look like versus businesses of its size and businesses in its same kind of customer segment of category and that begins the adjustment process down until you get to a multiple and that starts to make sense. Mark: Yeah, so I want to touch real quick on just the size of a business in general because I know we experience this across the board with all different types of businesses. And yeah, my alarm bells went off, and let's just start with the publicly traded companies. Because I can hear all of my e-commerce clients saying, well, fantastic; I don't know what Amazon is trading at right now as a multiple of revenue, but I'm sure it's a ridiculous number. David: Yes. Mark: But Amazon is also the largest company in America at this point. Actually, I don't know that for sure. I'm sure they're up there, though. They're top five. So sort of with the publicly traded markets is a starting point but there's a lot of discussions that are going to happen in place. So if we're looking at a publicly-traded company like a Salesforce, as we scale down in terms of revenue down into the seven-figure territory from the nine-figure, eight-figure, seven-figure, the discounts do come in pretty rapidly. Why is it that larger companies earn a higher multiple of either revenue or earnings, in your opinion? David: Well, there's a perception of greater stability with greater size. Additionally, just generally speaking if you were to say a business growing 30% year over year at a hundred million in ARR versus one at 10 million in ARR it's more oppressive to be doing a more valuable; you're creating more value at a hundred million than you are at 10 million and therefore, it's commensurate with so the business is worth a greater multiple. It's much, much, much harder to do so. And you see that very, very clearly if you just go and look at a size-adjusted scale in public markets, at businesses at scale that are growing very quickly, they're the ones that are trading at the highest value and that's why Amazon's ballistic valuation. But it's because it's delivering unbelievable revenue growth for business scale. It's already absolutely huge in size so it is very, very, very impressive. But you're right, you need to start discounting down quite significantly. But it's tempting to be like we're starting so kind of pie in the sky with these public numbers and public multiples like wipe off of there. They are the heartbeat of overall like macro SaaS macro sentiment and like it or not, that is where a lot of sentiment; investment sentiment, think about it like kind of customer confidence. It's kind of like investor confidence really does benchmark from public market tech valuations. Mark: I mean, it makes sense, right? Everything that we're talking about here, any sort of valuation is really a market-based valuation. Anytime we're valuing any asset, whether it be a business or apples, it's based off of market dynamics here. So that part makes sense. I want to dig into the business metrics though that we start to get into in more. The regular as we are characterizing it, the regular valuation metrics that we look at. Within the SaaS world, these are going to be somewhat different anyway from, say, an e-commerce business, right? On an e-commerce business, we're going to be looking at gross profit margins, we're looking at growth, we're taking a look at some qualitative aspects of the products that they're selling such as the intellectual property protections and everything else. What sort of business metrics are we going to look at for a SaaS company, regardless of whether we're looking at it from an SDE valuation viewpoint or a revenue multiplier viewpoint; what are some of the other metrics we want to look at? David: Yeah, it's a great question because it's both actually identical and this is where the commonalities between the two methods are huge which is that it's all very well talking about in a revenue growth way of SaaS businesses but you have to look at what's the quality of that growth. And the key barometer of quality of revenue growth in any SaaS business is churn, average revenue per user, lifetime value, a monthly versus annual plan split, and the gross margins on there. So clearly if you just take the first one, because churn is such a focal point for everybody, if you have a business with an outsized level of churn versus its size and category, then that's a major red flag in terms of the business. You see that quite a lot in terms of Shopify or Amazon plugin type add-ons, where largely because of the type of end-user which on Amazon can turn over quite quickly buyers and sellers come and go there. Those tools can kind of have quite high churn rates. And so it's an interesting one because they often have very fast growth rates in general, like a very sharp revenue growth rate because Amazon is an absolutely enormous space to be in. There's tons of new sellers turning up, signing up for new tools that they're churning away after three to four months. So you have to immediately look at can I appraise this tool that's going 100% year over year growth versus the 15% monthly churn? Because if it stops growing even just a little bit within 12 months, it's going to churn out almost the entire customer base and cut off all the growth. And so you have to look at those two. They're absolutely symbiotic. And it's the same with seller's discretionary earnings type businesses because ultimately that impacts the bottom line as it is with revenue multiple. And then the interesting one is looking at monthly versus annual plan split. Naturally, most SaaS businesses are an amalgamation of both and it's definitely favored and preferred that there's a much stronger bias towards monthly planned revenue if that makes up sort of 85% plus of your overall business. That's perceived as a very good thing. If annual is a bigger proportion of that, that's something of a concern. And that's really just because what you want in SaaS is predictability. That's what everybody loves with recurring revenue. Monthly plan revenue is more predictable than annual planned revenue, which seems psychologically counterintuitive, but it's not when you consider that every single month customers have the opportunity to churn away, whereas with annual planned revenue that only happens once every 12 months. So you have no idea what's going to happen in 12 months' time to a large cohort of any bias. Their whole lives could have changed quite a lot so the data set there is less rich and so it makes it more opaque for bias. And so they actually value that pop business generally lower than monthly occurring revenue. So they are just a few of a couple of the kind of revenue quality metrics that should be really important for both buyers and sellers. Mark: I want to talk about ARP but before that, I'm going to talk about churn and a concept of it. I don't know if you would take this into account an evaluation of an Amazon SaaS business, for example, that is supporting sellers. As you know, David, I have an interest in a dating website online and there's a concept in dating world called the good churn. It's somebody canceling their account because they met somebody. And within the dating world, you want to have good churn even though it does impede growth. I know with the site that I have interest in, the business I'm interested in, we have monthly turnover on 23%, which is massively huge and it does impede growth, but we want to have 23% be made up as much of good churn as possible because when people meet somebody they then talk to each other. So within the Amazon space, do we take that into account or with any sort of support service where you're getting somebody off the ground and they outgrow your product because it served its need, right? That's really the dynamic here. If your SaaS business serves a need that your users no longer need it that would be good churn. Would that be taken into account with that churn number very much or are we really looking more just the throttling on growth and the fact that you're chasing ever-increasing growth numbers with high churn? David: Yeah, it's hardly the latter, because if you think about it, I mean, SaaS valuations, in general, are higher than any other business model. And the reason for that is because for every single unit of revenue you're bringing in you can predict how long it's going to stay with you for and you can't with any other business. And so helping people out for a shorter period of time, even if they're then canceling for good reasons while still brilliant from a customer success standpoint, isn't something that a buyer would attach a higher multiple to. So you kind of want to help people for the longest amount of time to create the most amount of value and that's why I like businesses with very high lifetime values and their churn are generally speaking, the most valuable type of SaaS businesses. So, yeah, you've got yourself a beautiful paradox there Mark with your site. I think in that situation, you just have to turn into a massive marketing spend then. You need to post those numbers all over your website and say people are gleefully canceling because of what we do. Mark: Well, you know it bleeds out into the other metrics, I think. And I wish I could say our 23% was good churn. It's not but it bleeds into be other numbers, right? Because if you have good churn where it trickles into is your cost of acquisition becomes effectively lower. So the more good churn you have, the lower your effective cost of acquisition compared to people that don't have as good of churn because you have more social proof. Now, it may not be a very clear or strong relation, it's more murky but let's talk about ARPU and also a lifetime value of a user. When we're looking at these metrics, how much does taking look at cohorts in terms of time play into that? Because I know Chuck sold a business a while ago, it wasn't directly SaaS. It was sort of SaaS-y in its makeup, which it was pretty much awash for the first 24 months in terms of lifetime value and cost of acquisition. But after that 24 month period, everything was profit on top of that. And I look at that and say that's fantastic. That's great. I get it. But from a buyer's standpoint, the cash requirements for a business like that, especially if you're growing rapidly, becomes a constraint to growth. You have to be able to fund a business with a 24 month period lead time. How much does a cohort analysis play into a valuation? And I would assume kind of the logical conclusion here is the shorter period of time to be able to get from your cost of acquisition to your revenue is more desirable. But is that something that you look at closely? David: Yeah, I mean, from the challenges with LTV in many monthly recurring revenue businesses, is it's moving around so much. I just sold a business just recently where the LTV posted up and profit well is going everywhere from 2,800 to $7,000 month to month. So try marketing a business with that level of variance. So to your point, Mark, you do have to look at cohort analysis, I think to go back and be like, what's the kind of longer-term trend in the business here? Like what's actually evolving because that business is a great example, the same phenomena you're talking about which for two years, more or less, didn't really make any money and then started to hockey stick. Not so much because the revenue growth was absolutely phenomenal it's just because the cost base no longer needed to go up anymore to substantiate it. They kind of refined the products enough, spent enough on development, finally figured out the marketing channels, stopped spending really a lot of both and then it just started to fly. And that is the case in point for so many SaaS businesses, which is that it's kind of like swimming into the dock a bit for an indefinite period of time until you do hear those unique economics that makes sense. And it just flies from that point in many cases, anyway. Mark: I think that the whole world of trying to value SaaS companies, especially in this murky range, is a fascinating exercise. When we do an e-commerce valuation, so much of it is cut and dry and I think part of that is just due to the volume that's out there. It's also the nature of these e-commerce businesses as you buy an asset and you turn it around and you're selling it so your profit becomes kind of immediate as opposed to the longer periods of baking and growth with the SaaS company for the long term, which makes it more of a complex exercise. So let's talk a little bit about the guide. 15,000 words, you talked a lot about this idea of moving over to the revenue-based multiplier. I would imagine that there are some examples. And we joked about this before we started recording, I haven't seen the guide yet and reviewed it so I'm going to be speaking a little bit and guessing. I'm assuming that you have some examples in here and other information. Tell us a little bit about what's in the guide and what people could take away from it. David: Yeah, so the guide really breaks down how to do the traditional SDE approach valuation and the revenue approach valuation, and most importantly, how to discern the difference between case studies where you should do one or the other. And I kind of put a four-part test in there which is really the size test. Is it or around or above the million dollars in ARR level? The next thing we look at is where's the revenue growth trending towards, is it showing these kind of fundamentals we're talking about 40% plus year over year growth? The next thing is looking at is this still a business that's kind of a single owner-operator in a relatively thin personnel business, or is it starting to staff up with customer success, starting to wrap around some significant infrastructure to enable it to start going from one to 10 million dollars? That's a really important kind of qualitative factor. And then the last one, of course, is churn, because in reality smaller apps, generally speaking, have higher churn rates. So you'd expect to be seeing kind of an over tuned 4% to 9% in monthly churn in immature let's say, and to the immature SaaS apps. And as you start to get up to this million in ARR level you'd like to see that really dropped below 4% monthly churn. That's the big thing, because churn, as every SaaS business more or less in the world will tell you is the hardest problem to solve for because it is the ultimate barometer of whether people think you're creating enough value to not want to churn out and cancel. And so the more value you're creating, the more helpful you are to people, the less they're going to churn. And that's ultimately what anybody wants to pay for in any business. And so it being the most difficult problem to solve for makes it the most valuable one for a buyer to want to buy. So the lower the churn, generally speaking, the higher the value of the business all else being the same. So those are some of the key distinction points. And then, of course, I'm aware that there's both sellers and buyers looking at it. It's really useful information for both sides to see. Buyers are looking to buy to grow up and scale, sellers are looking to increase the multiples, everybody wants to increase value so I put in a bunch of additional kind of growth value; what I call value-centric growth levers. And what I meant by that is like what essentially the top three things that you can do that will most dramatically impact the most part of the business right away beyond just getting more growth which, of course, always helps. But like specifically one of the things that we've seen over the years in Quiet Light selling businesses, one of the things that we know dramatically increase the multiples of businesses. So I shared some of those in the guide as well for both buyers and sellers to look at. Mark: So if we want to just be trite, we can say if you want to get a great valuation, grow your business or reduce the churn, right? David: Yeah. Mark: All right, the guide is going to be available on the website. We will include links, obviously, in the podcast. You're going to be seeing some emails from us about the guide. We'll also have a PDF downloadable version of the guide. And of course, if anybody has questions about the valuation of your SaaS company and where you fall or questions, I'm sure David would be more than happy to answer any questions about this as well. David: Absolutely. Mark: David@quietlightbrokerage.com. David, thanks for coming on and enlightening me a little bit on this. And it's a complex topic, its super interesting, though. You know, I've been doing this for 14 years now, and it's sort of refreshing to look at different types of companies, different approaches to the same problem, and seeing where we can get some variation. So this is absolutely fascinating to talk about it and I'm looking forward to reading it, which I should have access to it. I'll be reading it here soon. David: My pleasure. Mark: Thanks David.   Resources: David's Article About SaaS Valuation Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com

Organizational impact is a result of effective leadership! The SynerVision Leadership Nonprofit Reactivation Symposium is a one-day intensive virtual event for you to learn the skills to stand up or grow your nonprofit, recruit the right board and volunteers, create a winning strategy, and attract donors to support your mission. This symposium is designed to equip nonprofit leaders and clergy to break through barriers in performance for themselves, boards, staff, and volunteers; and to attract the funding to support the fulfillment of the organization's mission. To register for this Virtual Symposium go HERE   Read the Preview Conversation Dr. Thyonne Gordon: Well, I guess we can introduce ourselves, huh? I am Dr. Thyonne Gordon. I am here in sunny Los Angeles, California. I am your story strategist. I help people with curating and creating the best story of their life, their project, their idea, their business. As Hugh continues to pull me back into the nonprofit world, I help nonprofits to curate their story of great success. Hugh Ballou: You're so valuable to this sector. Let me introduce who's here. We're here to share with you. It's a preview session. Thank you for being here today. Today is a special edition of The Nonprofit Exchange. It's thoughts, ideas, encouragement, empowerment, learning, examples to learn from. It's people who have something to share. Everybody here has been a guest on previous episodes of the podcast. We'll have some more people joining us. These are presenters for the Nonprofit Reactivation Symposium that will happen on May 1. I wanted the presenters to give you their story about what they're going to share with you. Also, why did they want to show up? I am going to start with Dr. David Gruder. David, you've been with me doing this kind of stuff for a way long time, back since water. This is #27 of these live events. This one is the first one that is virtual, and it's very different. It was the Leadership Empowerment Symposium for years. You and I started noodling on the title. Share a little bit about what we talk about and why we named this a reactivation symposium. Dr. David Gruder: Right. Well, first of all, it's a pleasure to be here with you, Hugh, as always, and to be with these wonderful, esteemed colleagues who I so respect and appreciate and love. The changes that are going on in our society right now that have been brought to the forefront through the COVID-19 crisis are changes that have been under way for a while in a lower-key manner, that in a sense flew under the radar. Because of what's been magnified through the COVID-19 crisis, we really are in the process of establishing what's being called a new norm. Nonprofits are going to be dramatically impacted by this new norm. So what we at SynerVision Leadership Foundation are committed to doing is helping nonprofits stay ahead of that curve so that we craft the new norm together as the nonprofit world so that nonprofits can fill their proper place in the world in a more effective way in the new norm rather than be drowned out because of the craziness that is going on as the new norm emerges. Hugh: Craziness. Whoa. I love it. We were talking a little bit before we officially started. I had a technical glitch, and my Zoom disappeared off my computer. I am back. We were talking about being busier than ever. When somebody says, “Why do we need reactivation?” you are going to talk a little bit… Tell them about what you're talking about. David: The topic I am going to be speaking on is reenvisioning leader development in the new normal. The things that have been emerging during this COVID crisis really illuminate the necessity of, I don't want to be dramatic here too much, but pretty much an overhaul of the vision of what leadership is going to need to include that people were thinking of as optional before now. Now it's mandatory. I am going to be covering four key areas of new norm leadership and leader development in my talk. Hugh: We won't tell them exactly what that is yet. David: Ooh, it's a secret. You have to show up to find out. Hugh: It's a secret. Each of you have recorded a little promo that we have put out on the Internet and invited people to come. The latest one I got a few minutes ago was from Dr. Gordon. We have some California people here. David Gruder, you're way south, Spanish-speaking San Diego. Thyonne, you're a little north of there in Los Angeles. Talk a little bit about what you're talking about, and why. Thyonne: Yes, I'm Dr. Thyonne. I will be talking about shifting your crisis story through board leadership. I'll be speaking in regard to how boards and executive directors and organizations overall need to work together during the time of crisis more than ever. No matter what, board leaders and their executives should always be in mind step. But during a crisis, it's really important for the board to step up and take their leadership role and do it in a more advanced way than they have in the past. I'll be speaking about how board members can show up in that type of way. Hugh: We'll be talking more about that. This is the special edition of The Nonprofit Exchange. This particular event, we have a key sponsor, EZ-Card. *Sponsor message from EZ-Card* We have Greg Sanders today. Greg represents the EZ-Card company. It's his company. He founded it. But you're not just a tech guy, are you? Just a little bit about Greg. Why are you supporting the work of SynerVision Leadership Foundation? Greg Sanders: I just want to say what a privilege it is first of all to be here. I understand this is a relatively informal gathering, so I did not wear a suit and tie. I agree with Dr. Gruder. This time is a time of transition. So many people are learning new technical skills, supportive technologies, to enable them to conduct business and do face-to-face meetings in this type of venue as opposed to meeting at Starbucks and going to live venues. Not just businesspeople, but their customers. If I am going to do an estimate and put a roof on your house, I am not going to come to your house anymore. I am going to ask you to hop on your phone or computer. The normal person on the street is also developing all of these online skills. So to David's point about nonprofits, every nonprofit I'm aware of works with a skeleton crew. They are time-challenged and resource-challenged, and they probably don't have time to think about what Dr. Gruder is going to talk about, which is how to rest and reshape and reform. They are trying to survive. Coming on Friday is so valuable. What we're doing at EZ-Card is we are the supportive technology. I am not a major speaker. I will speak briefly about possibly using EZ-Card along with Zoom or other technologies which move your message forward in this particular environment. That is what EZ-Card is. I will be explaining the benefits of EZ-Card as a mobile app. When I think of a nonprofit, they have to get their message out. They have to raise money. They have to let their supporters know this is our valuable work we are doing day in and day out. Any video they can show where they are caring for children or at-risk populations, any way to get their message out there, and they can do that with EZ-Card on their phone. That is what we'll be doing, and we are happy to support the event itself. If you'd like to look at it and share it with people to get there on Friday, you just text LDR, which is an abbreviation for leadership, to 64600. Two things will happen. You will get a link to your phone. You click the link, and the EZ-Card opens. It could take you to the SynerVision website. It could take you to details about Friday's event. You can register. But it will also give Hugh and the leadership team your mobile number so they can send you text reminders about the event. Text LDR to 64600. We'd like to provide similar technology to any nonprofit if we can help you do what you do better and help you raise more money. Hugh: It's an amazing tool. I know David Gruder has one. The others of you who have seen it. Sherita just saw it for the first time. Bob Hopkins out there in Big D, Dallas, Texas. You're recording as you were wearing this ten-gallon hat. So passionate about philanthropy he even named his horse Philanthropy. Bob Hopkins: I did. I did, and I do. Hugh: It's this kid who said to his dad, “Your ten-gallon hat won't hold ten gallons; it only holds four quarts.” Tell us what you are going to talk about and why you want to talk about that. Bob: It changes every hour quite frankly. I just got off the television looking at the president of Brown University. By the way, universities are nonprofit organizations. Talking about how hundreds of thousands of colleges are going to stay afloat because they depend upon tuition, and lots of kids aren't going back to school at this time because they don't know what they're going to do, and they don't have jobs anymore. They won't be able to afford to go. I'm sure every board of directors of every university or college in the country is madly trying to figure it out. One of the people I invited to come on Friday as a student is Alfonse Brown. He's at a university in Florida, an African-American law university, the oldest one in the country. He has board meetings all day Friday and Saturday, trying to figure out what they are going to do in the fall. Not in the summer. We have already figured out the summer; we are doing Zoom, just like we're doing now. What are they going to do in the fall with those huge buildings, with billions of square feet? With students, I have 22-24 students in my classroom. We cannot handle six feet apart. If every classroom doesn't have 24-26, they will lose money. Thousands of colleges will have to close. Then I'm thinking about my students. My students have been introduced to the nonprofit sector in my class because I teach communications with a focus on nonprofit management. I'm thinking about them because what are they going to get out of it, and what message am I going to give them? I have a requirement that all my students come to this class on Friday. It's half of their final. Then they have to write a critique on what they experienced, what they got out of it as 50 points, and they have to write their eulogy for the other 50 points. After this semester, they will probably want to die anyway, so their eulogy might be appropriate. I don't know. I'm going to look at what you all are going to talk about, so I will try to fit in so I am not talking about the same thing. I listened to speaking about boards of directors as well as Thyonne. There are so many avenues of how to talk about boards of directors. How to get them, how to keep them, how many to get, what are their responsibilities, those kinds of things. I think, and you already messaged it to me right now, is how they will stay afloat. That's what boards of directors are going to want to know when they come to see us when we are talking about nonprofit management and organizations. How are we going to stay afloat? What is the new normal going to be? I think that changes every day, too. We are supposed to in Texas open up last Friday. I went to the bank just now. There was one man in there without a mask on. I went to the president sitting in the corner and said, “Is it a requirement to wear masks now?” He said, “Yes, it is, but we're not enforcing it. It's a $1,000 fine, and we're not enforcing it.” I said, “Why not? It's a rule and a law. If I have to do it, they have to do it because I am not being protected, but they are being protected from me.” I tell you every minute I find something different. Our lives are going to change not just from the board level, but from the people who come to participate with us. All of them won't be board members. They will be people who are not involved in the nonprofit sector as a living or in a vocation, but as maybe just a volunteer. Hugh: Bob and I met recently. My wife was going to Dallas for a conference at SMU. We were introduced by guests on my show who were the founders of Barefoot Winery. They accidentally founded a winery; it's a great story. We connected. Bob, you have a book in your hand there? Bob: Hugh, I'm so sorry you asked. This is my book. It's called Philanthropy Misunderstood. Is that appropriate for the time. I think it should be Management Misunderstood, Nonprofits Misunderstood, Our Planet Misunderstood. My next book will be called Philanthropy Understood. Hopefully in the next two years, we will figure that out. Hugh: Sherita and Thyonne will have some stories for you there. They have a massive amount of connections and nonprofits they have worked with. The new normal is you go into the bank with a mask on. It used to be when you walk into the bank with a mask on, they will be nervous. Now if you don't have a mask on, they're nervous. The new normal is opposite polarity. Bob: They are still nervous because they arrested two men and asked them to leave. Unfortunately, you people of color will understand this. These were two black men with two black masks on. The people behind the counter were uncomfortable with them and asked them to leave, not knowing if they had a billion dollars in the bank or whatever reason they were there. It didn't matter. We have a lot of challenges coming up. Hugh: Sherita, on that happy note, tell folks- Bob has been a lifelong champion of nonprofits. He has been a CFRE with the fundraising professionals. He is a wee bit older than me. Finally I am in a group with one person who is my senior. My sister Sherita out there, where are you now? Arkansas? Sherita Herring: I am in Hattieville, Arkansas, of all names, right? Bob: I know Hattieville. Sherita: The fact that I am even here in Hattieville. When I was a young girl, do you guys remember Petticoat Junction? I used to want to live there. I loved Betty Jo, Billie Jo, Bobbie Jo, Uncle Joe. I loved the pig Arnold. Most people did not realize how much I am a country girl. I am telling you that story because what I am going to be talking about on Friday is there are grants that exist even now that will allow you to live your most unbelievable dreams. I am living my dream. I am sitting here on 30 acres of land that has been passed down in my family for over 100 years. It's been almost 50 years since my great-grandfather passed away and anyone has lived here. It's not a cliché for me. I am living my best life right now in an RV with chickens and Guinea, and he is out there spraying. That's what I'll be talking about. Thank you for having me on with these other experts, Hugh. Hugh: We have Wil Coleman. He is a great musician out there in Raleigh, North Carolina. We will hopefully have Dr. Williams here in just a minute. Sherita: He is coming on now. Hugh: We also have a presenter who is not here, Bishop Ebony Kirkland. If you go to the landing page for the symposium at NonprofitLeadership.live, I am watching my phone. People are registering. It's exciting. We want to fill the house because there is so much important work to do. If you click on the pictures for these good-looking people, a video will pop up with an invitation as to what they are talking about in more detail and why you should come. This word “reactivation,” it's a mystery word for some of us because we are working as hard as we can. It's a new era. It's an important era. Bob has invited students. He is in the classroom again. He's worn a lot of hats. I gotta tell you, I have been in his class with his students. They come to our nonprofit leadership group on Thursdays. You are inspiring a new group of leaders, profound group of leaders coming up. There is a lot of untapped potential for people who might get overlooked. I remember, Bob, when I was 18, I had a chance to conduct when I was nothing but potential. Somebody like you believed in me. Somebody like you said, “Hugh, give it a go.” I was able to step up into a whole career. Let's go back to David Gruder for a minute. I want to ask any of you to shout out when you can. This is such an important occasion. Bob just talked about colleges who are a specific type of nonprofit. Big universities with big budgets and a lot of foundations and history are having challenging times. Imagine a small community organization that wants to feed people, clothe people, house people. They are working on a bare strings budget. David, what's important for our mindset? What's important for how to equip ourselves to rethink leadership and our work? David: Oh my. Well, okay. Short version is that we need to shift our, what's called in psychology, locus of control. Right now, in society, there is an external locus of control. What locus of control has to do with is how a person centers their ideas about where control lives. Right now, a lot of people are thinking that society and government and COVID-19 and external circumstances are the boss of them. That is a mindset that is a surefire recipe for victimization, powerlessness, and empty, unhelpful forms of rebellion. That has to shift into what in psychology is called an internal locus of control, where I'm the boss of the future I create. I'm the boss of my own stories that I tell myself and the emotions that I have and response to those stories and the words and actions that I say and do in response to the emotions I have about the stories I create. That is a skillset that is developable, and it is a crucial skillset, not only for leaders to embody, but for teams to be trained in how to do because without that, there will be no conscious, elevated, spiritual architecting of a new norm that is helpful to humanity rather than harmful to humanity. Hugh: David Gruder says things, and I say, “Gosh, I wish I would have put those words together like that.” He is a champion wordsmith. Anything else you want to share? Thyonne, I was so impressed by your short video. Of course, I was impressed by all of them, but yours is in mind because I got it most recently. It was passionate. You used to be part of a foundation that sent you out to do board capacity building. Why is it so important for us to learn ourselves as leaders, to equip ourselves as leaders to grow and engage our boards at a higher level? Thyonne: Thanks for the compliment on the video that you had me do at the last minute. It's really important for us as leaders to engage and interact with our boards because our boards are what make our organizations. They hold the fiduciary responsibility for our nonprofit organizations, which means if they're not working in step with the executives and the team at the organizational level, you absolutely could slip and fall. Your board is like your safety net. They are looking at things. Their role is to actually make sure the organization is staying afloat, is sustainable, is doing what it says it's supposed to do, staying in line with the vision and the mission. Your board is your support system. It's important for leaders to understand the relationship and the role they have with their board members. The foundation that I worked with prior was the Annenberg Foundation here in Los Angeles. We did do capacity-building by teaching board leaders how to work in alignment with the executive director. The program was called Alchemy. It was a magical program to bring together the executive director and a support person, or a champion, and the board chair. They had to come together in the program, which we would do quarterly. We came for classes and learning how to work together, how to build the capacity of the organization, and even how to fundraise. With them working hand in hand, they were able to have much higher success rates. It's important for leaders to understand the importance of their board and what their board roles are. Especially with small organizations, when you start an organization, my mom is on the board, my brother is on the board, and my sister down north. They're like, “Yeah, sure, you can put my name down.” They have no idea what it means to be responsible on a board. They don't know anything about board governance. It's important for leaders who want to start these nonprofits to understand your board is a serious thing. It's not just your mom and grandma and everybody who said, “Yeah, we should do that. That sounds cool.” And you're selling pies or chicken dinners or whatever it is to raise money. That's great, but if you have a board who understands their fiduciary responsibility, they will say, “We can sell these chicken dinners, but we also have to expand and talk to somebody like Sherita about how we find grant funding and how we are in alignment with that and how we stay with our vision and our mission. If you're working with saving the chickens, selling chicken dinners might not be a good idea.” Hugh: Absolutely. Thyonne: It's important for us to know what we're doing and that our boards know their roles. Hugh: I want to get Sherita on here for a minute. Sherita has some family issues, and she needs to go tend to some of those important things. She set you up for this thing that you are going to talk about. Everybody thinks there is grants, and it will be a smooth road going after them. You send in an application, and people will give you all this money. We have to learn some things as leaders, don't we? Sherita: Yes. For one, grant funders are investors just like any other investor. People think that there is a magic potion or something when it comes to grants for the nonprofit arena. That's why another time when Hugh and I worked together, and I wrote that article, “Nonprofit - The Stepchild of Business,” people treat a nonprofit like a side gig or a hobby. They don't put much into it. They might submit one grant or two grants and don't receive it and say, “See, everyone told me not to do this.” But they have been trying to get money for their for-profit business for 20 years and kept trying until they succeeded. They will not put much into the nonprofit arena but expect a greater return. That's what tends to happen. When you're going after grants, it's a joint process with the executive or whoever they choose to work with the person that is writing the grants because even myself, I raised over $30 million. We developed over 600 organizations. But there is no way to just take it upon myself and write about my clients' accomplishments without their assistance. I am very good at what I do, but I am only as good as the information received. People expect you to write a grant for a building, for the grant-writer to write about it without their input. The grant-writer doesn't know their accomplishments, who they have worked with in the past as far as collaborations, their projects. It has to be a joint effort in order to make it happen. Yes, like you said, I lost a very dear uncle this morning. I tried to clear my calendar to be on here with you, but I got the call this morning that my uncle passed away. I am working on a couple of things. Before I leave, it's also important for people. Just today or yesterday it was reported, a director of an ER committed suicide. She was in New York at a major hospital. Had contracted coronavirus herself while treating patients. Got well, went back to work, and yesterday, committed suicide. Organizations after every catastrophe, whether it is Katrina or the 1930s Depression, after every catastrophe, it doesn't stop there. There is going to be an aftermath. There is cause and effect. Organizations are going to need to get prepared for depression, suicide prevention, PTSD, while also like professionals like ourselves, helping people to regain themselves after this. With every issue or problem, there is grant funding. That is why grants are there: to address problems and issues. This is why the nonprofit arena, and you hear about grants more during times like this. It's not that it operates less. The nonprofit arena steps up more. It's important to understand that, understand how you can stabilize your footing, and understand the process of how to go after funding in order to ride this wave. Yes, it is a negativity that is happening right now. Yes, we are losing lives. Yes, a lot of businesses are closed right now. If we understand how to ride the wave of what is happening right now in addition to knowing how to survive and move forward in it, that is what I will be talking about. I thank you for having me on, including me with these other experts. Wil, hi, how are you? It's been years. Tell Pastor I said hello, and I do want to speak with you guys following on this. David Gruder, Greg, Thyonne, and Bob, I look forward to being with you on Friday. Have a very blessed day. Hugh: That was so profound. It's time for some summary statements. I'd like to start with Bob Hopkins. Every time I talk to Bob, I am amazed at the depth of knowledge he has about a lot of different topics. He is living the sweet life. He could be tending his garden, but he is out there inspiring students and teaching. He has joined the SynerVision team and wants to help us take the magazine up another level and do some work with us. Blessings to you and sharing your gifts, and thank you for being a part of this presenting team. We are going to wrap up here and let everybody have a moment to say something. What would you like to add to the conversation? Bob: I'm anxious to read the content again of everybody and what we are going to do and where I fit in. I am going to be there for the entire time. A lot of it might be off the top of my head after I have learned what I have heard from you. I don't want to go on a tangent that doesn't have some relationship to what we are already talking about. I think as a time when we all speak for 20 minutes at a time, then I'm later on in the afternoon. I'm the last speaker. At least that was the schedule I saw. Hugh: I messed with it because we had some changes I had to make. I am going to send that out to you right after this session. You do have several times that you are going to be able to influence people and share some of your stuff. I have had to rework it. Our Bishop Kirkland in New York couldn't be here today. She is sitting in New York talking to people about working together, collaborating. She is going to share with us Friday about that. We will get a report on how that is going in New York City. Bob, you could speak off the top of your head all day and not duplicate yourself. You have such a wealth of information. We are going to talk about philanthropy. His book is brilliant. He lifted it up before. Your book is 100-something stories of nonprofits and how philanthropy really works. We think we know what philanthropy is, but it really is different. How do boards connect with that? You have experience running nonprofits as well as being a resource to them. We have had to make the schedule a little fluid, but it's not a whole lot different. I have moved you up in the day a little bit. Whenever you talk, people are going to listen. It's like one of those big investment companies. When they talk, we all listen. Knowing that, you're going to have great gifts to share. Don't put yourself down. You have a lot of important stuff to share. Thank you for being part of this great presentation team. Bob: Thank you. Hugh: Greg Sanders. Why is the work of a nonprofit so important? Why are you sponsoring SynerVision? Greg: My mother and my father were both university teachers. My mom was in foreign languages, Spanish. My father was in music. I taught sociology for 30 years. I have a big heart for students who can't figure out what the heck they are going to do with their lives when they are 18-22, which is an important thing I felt like I did when I was working at the university. Not just transmitting content, but helping people figure out their futures. I think about Dr. Gruder who is known for integrity. My feeling is that everything we do should be of service to other people. I love the nonprofit organization because they wear right on their sleeve that we are here to serve. Businesses should have that same mindset. If what you do is not improving the quality of life for other people, you should go do something else. That is what EZ-Card attempts to do. I tell people if you are going to build a house, you could do it with your bare hands, but it's a lot better to do it with tools, even with power tools, because if you spend $1 on a power tool, it's going to help you save hundreds of dollars in building that house. That is what we are trying to do at EZ-Card. If the technology fits and helps people to do what they have chosen to do to help other people in a more efficient manner, that is what we're all about. I think we are right. We need to rethink the way we are doing everything, and we need to think about it in terms of helping other people. We are trying to make money during this period of time, but we are also caring for people. Just recently, I had one middle-aged adult talking about taking care of her 88-year-old mother right now and saying, “My mom was healthy. She went out with her friends. She went to restaurants. She had an active life. Now she is cooped up in her house and is wasting away. She is no longer actively engaging.” My advice is to maintain your normal life as best you can, even having to shelter in place. How can you maintain the routines? How can you maintain life as normal? It's that kind of strategic thinking that nonprofit organizations have to be maintained in. You can't do some things the way you did them before, but you can make a semblance of those activities and try to keep those healthy routines in place. I am privileged to be a part of it. We are trying to drive some traffic to what is happening on Friday from the EZ-Card side. Hugh: Text 64600 with LDR in the message. You will have the SynerVision card. Dr. Gordon, how would you like to close? Thyonne: Hugh, I hope you can keep David, Greg, Bob, and Wil because I plan on putting on my mask and kidnapping Bob from Texas. Bob, don't pay attention. I am going to be grabbing you and bringing you to California. Bob: My bags are packed. Thyonne: I have already texted Greg's site. I am excited about that. David, I know how I feel about you. Wil, I just met you. This is going to be an amazing symposium. I am excited to be part of it. Anyone who misses it, you are about to miss out on the opportunity of a lifetime. That is what we have to understand as nonprofit leaders and people in this space. I will speak as an African-American woman. This isn't our first time in a crisis. We know how to get through a crisis. Nonprofits, we are used to not having a whole lot and making a lot happen. In this crisis, we are the leaders. We actually know what to do already. Our leadership style is what everybody else is trying to do. We have been doing this makeshift thing for a long time. We have such an opportunity to take this thing by the horns and make an opportunity of it. That is what I will talk about with the board leadership as well. When board leaders step up right now, there are all sorts of opportunities for us to come out of this thriving and leading during this crisis as well as through this crisis to help us get through it. There is so much opportunity. With the people who will be at this symposium, wow, you will get the ideas, the information. You will have the knowledge that you need to break through and make a change in your organization. I am excited. Hugh, let's make it happen. Bob, don't look for me, but I am coming to get you. Hugh: That's awesome. You may have noticed some old white guy. Sometimes we're clueless. Some of us know how to dress, but not me. Wil, did you say Pastor is on here? Blessings. Do you have a picture, or will you just talk to us? Dr. Kevin Williams: I am just going to talk to you. I don't have a picture today. Hugh: Thank you for being here. All of us have crazy schedules. We have some awesome folks. You are going to talk about how Paul said be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Talk about the transformation that you are going to talk about. You will be square up at noon EST at the symposium. It's the spot before we take a lunch break. Tell us why we need that and why you want to share that with people. Kevin: Right now, I think one of the greatest challenges that that could hinder any individual is to be stuck to an old way of thinking. Everything that has transpired recently has caused two waves of thought. One wave is people believing that things will go back to the way that they were, which is a very dangerous mindset. The other thought is understanding that they won't go back to the way that they were, but also understand what is getting ready to come. Any time there is going to be advancement, either you are going to be a reactionary person or you will be an initiating individual. Thought leaders nowadays have to initiate so that we can provoke other people to initiate and not be reactionary. Usually, if you are reactionary, you are going to suffer the consequences of reacting. But when your mind is renewed, when Paul talks about that, he is talking about a renovation of taking out some old things, almost like renovating a house, taking out some old things and literally changing the scope of the house and the aspect of it so that it can meet your current needs. The same thing happens in the mind. If a person doesn't transform their thinking and get out of the old stuck way of thinking, they are going to ultimately implode and damage themselves. But when an individual comes into a mind renewal, this is why symposiums like this are key and important, because what you have then is you have thought leaders who are ultimately like construction workers. What we're doing is aiding the individual to renovate their thinking because in this renovation, people are not just going to learn about what's new, but also learn the type of thinking they should have that has hurt them before but also is going to help them now because now we're open to a new way of thinking. If you look at what's happening with the United States, with the government, with the marketplace, everything is shifting. Look at stocks. Look at the different kinds of currency now, like cryptocurrency. All of these different things that are happening, our mind has to be renewed. The next thing is we have to make sure that we don't fall into the hands of something that we don't ascribe to because with all of this that is happening, by being a faith leader, I understand that God has an agenda. Even though God has a focus and a vision for all of us, so does the enemy. We have to make sure we are not operating in something that looks like it has a form of goodness, but denies the power thereof. As thought leaders, one of the things I believe that is important is that our thinking definitely has to change in order for us to be effective for this coming time and for this generation right now that is depending on us to see something for them that they cannot see for themselves. Hugh: Awesome. Dr. Williams, it's been a few years, but you invited me down to work with your congregation. We did some leadership stuff. Wil and I did some music stuff. Also, the very first symposium happened in Greensboro at your church. Did you know that? Kevin: Wow. I knew that we did the symposium, but I didn't know it was the first one. Hugh: That was a shorter one. It was an evening. You put out the word, and everybody came. I remember Bishop Willimon asked somebody why they came, and they said, “Pastor said to come.” He was quite impressed with that. This is #27. It's changed a little bit. Of course, we can't do it live right now, so we are doing it virtually. It's a celebration of something we started in Greensboro at New Jerusalem Cathedral. Thank you for helping me launch this so many years ago. Kevin: Most definitely. I always want to be a part of things that you're doing. Hugh: Blessings. You've been a blessing to me. Thank you for being here. You're sharing it with your tribe. Bishop Kirkland is out here in New York City getting people to collaborate. She is doing some important work today. She will be with us on Friday. May 1. Be there. Thank you for getting in here. As we close out here, my brother David Gruder, you get the last spot. You know Dr. Williams, don't you? David: Yes. We have not talked or seen each other for a number of years, but I am delighted to reconnect. Hugh: This has been a great conversation. What do you want to leave us with? David: What I want to leave you all with is a quote from a 20th century thought leader that many of you are familiar with by name at least, Buckminster Fuller. What Bucky Fuller said was, “The best way to predict the future is to invent it.” This Friday, we are going to be talking about how nonprofits get to invent their future in effective, useful ways. I am really looking forward to offering some key psychological foundations for inventing a new future. Hugh: And you have a book. Do you want to offer a virtual version of it? Tell us about that. David: Very briefly, yeah. I have been involved in one capacity or another with 24 books now. One of them is a book I was the psychology editor for called Transcendent Thought and Market Leadership. That is by Bruce Raymond Wright. I have been blessed by Bruce to be able to offer a digital copy of the book as a gift to everyone who attends the symposium on Friday. Hugh: We will have some other gifts, but that is a significant one. David, thank you for being here. Kevin, thank you for being here. Greg, thank you for being here. Bob, thank you for being here. Thyonne is going to capture you and take you to California. He can do a book signing there. He will do that in California. I look forward to putting a spin on nonprofit leadership in a good way and inspiring people to go out there and make a huge difference. Thank you so much for sharing today with everybody.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Twenty years ago David Wood was ahead of the curve in the coaching space thanks to a workshop that led him to delve into the emotional aspects of business leadership. He is here today to discuss ways owners can use emotional intelligence to overcome the hurdles and valleys of growing a business. David is a high performance life and business coach, working solely with established entrepreneurs. He got his start on Park Avenue at the age of 23 and thought he had it made as a consulting actuary. A mandatory personal growth workshop made him realize that he was clueless about anything emotional in business. Today he uses his knowledge in his own business, Play for Real, to help entrepreneurs and business leaders push through tough scenarios with themselves and others and help them to do great things. David also is a coach trainer, mentor, author, and host of the Tough Conversations podcast. Episode Highlights: Reasons why David is speaking with us today. How he takes surface level goals and delves deeper into them. What questions entrepreneurs should ask themselves in order to get through any growth challenges in their business. David's focus on goal setting. The difference between a coach and a therapist. Why people seem so eager to move to the next thing when a sale is over. Quick coaching tips for business owners. The 4-step approach David suggests for sellers and buyers. How David's techniques can help your business and improve your life. Transcription: Mark: So a few years ago Joe I wrote a blog post on the Quiet Light blog and you can actually look this up and it's called I made a bad website acquisition. It was about a business that I bought and made some mistakes with and subsequently sold later on. At the end of that little ownership period that I had with that; it was a really small acquisition, we're talking a very small five figure level here but at the end of that period I hated that business. I hated it so much because it wasn't making any money. It was taking a bunch of my time. The logistics were a bit of a pain. And I got to the point where frankly I was willing to get rid of it for just about anything. And when we talk about the soft side of a transaction a lot of times people want to talk about the financial side and the metrics and the numbers and the financials; how do you actually juice that multiple, how do you get the value as high as you can? But so much of what we do is on that other side and that is the soft side of the transaction and understanding the arc of an entrepreneur's ownership of the business and how are you going to feel when you sold that business as well. And look before you turn it off and think this is all soft gooey stuff; this has a real impact on valuations. And I know you talked to David Wood about this, he was a business coach, because he really kind of keyed in on that as well. Joe: Yeah I know it has a tremendous impact. I like to say don't let the business outgrow you. That's generally why people sell because they've got a certain capacity and the business outgrows them; they get sick of it, they get frustrated, trends change, and they sell which is exactly what not to do. So working with a business coach like David who spends a lot of time with people in the e-commerce world helps you understand what your own personal goals are in business and in life. They're combined when you're an entrepreneur. And helps you get through those valleys and over those hurdles as you need to. David is a good friend of Ezra Firestone. I met him at Blue Ribbon Mastermind. Brad and I and Chris were there so I heard him do a fantastic presentation and I just had to connect with him afterwards and have him on the podcast. I think he can and will and has through the podcast I listened to he imparted some great wisdom when it comes to operating a business within your own capacity. Mark: Let's hear it. Let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got David Wood from Play for Real with us. David is actually a high performance life and business coach. I met him at Ezra Firestone's Blue Ribbon Mastermind event in; where were we David? St. Petersburg, Florida. David: Yeah. Joe: In January of 2019. I'm sorry 2020. David is a good friend of Ezra's and he did such an amazing presentation I wanted to have him on the podcast. Welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast David. David: Hey thank you. I'm happy to be here. Joe: Well, I'm glad you're here. We don't do fancy introductions so why don't you go ahead and give the people listening a little bit of background on yourself and what you do. David: Sure. Well I thought I was successful and I was at the age of say 23 because I was working on Park Avenue. I grew up in our country town in Australia. And here I am on Park Avenue consulting with Sony Music for the next song and I thought I pretty much got it made. I was a consulting actuary and for people who don't know what that is, we deal with financial projections going say 50 to 100 years into the future. Joe: Wow. David: And so my job was risk assessment but then I lucked into doing a personal growth program and I nearly didn't do it because they were all smiling way too much and they all wore nametags. I'm like this is very cult-y. I don't know about this but I didn't let that stop me and they cracked me open. They had me realize that I'd gotten great at systems and logic and results but I didn't know anything about vulnerability. I knew nothing about deep connection with other people and how to really influence people. Emotional Intelligence was something I hadn't even heard of. So the first half of my life was about business and results and success in that line of work and then the last half of my life has been about researching the more I still call it hippie woo-woo stuff like the touchy feely stuff. How do I make eye contact with someone? How do I be vulnerable? How do I deeply connect? So the people who come to me don't just want their business to be better. You can get a lot of business coaches for that. And they don't just want a part of their life to be better. They want everything to be to be better than it was before. So that's the short version of; oh I didn't say to in that course I got to coach somebody. Someone was really stuck about something that was destroying her marriage and I was able to hold space for her and her life changed and I got hooked. I was like this is amazing. I just spot the patterns and see what's missing and make a suggestion and she ran with it, totally revamped her marriage and her life, and I was like I can do this more than as a hobby? And this is back in ‘97 and it turned out yes you can. People were just starting to consider coaching as a career. So now I've been doing it for 20 years and I don't see any sign of stopping. Joe: You were ahead of the curve then and you're doing pretty amazing stuff now. You didn't mention that you wrote a book, that you're on stage quite often, you're on 70 podcasts last year, then Loosening Jack Canfield or John Gray did the inside cover of your book or things of that nature. You're pretty well connected with high level people but you deal with a lot of entrepreneurs as well in your coaching business, is that right? David: Yeah I'd coach entrepreneurs mainly for the last 20 years. Now I'm doing more corporate stuff, some vice presidents and also some prison work and working with prison inmates so I'm expanding but I'm an entrepreneur at heart. So I love working with entrepreneurs who are already doing great things. I don't work with just startup. You have to have a track record of success and then let's; how do you go further? Joe: The people listening are probably saying well why are we on the podcast together; why are you here? David: Yes. Joe: And when we list a business for sale oftentimes someone will say; a buyer, well if it's so great why are they selling? Or we always ask the question why they're selling. And more and more often what happens, people, is that a business outgrows the individual. And what we want people to do is understand first and foremost who they are, what they're capable, what their likes are, what their dislikes are, what drives them, what fills the cup and makes them happy. And that's a lot of what you do in your day to day work, David, is that correct? David: Yeah. Joe: Okay. David: Yeah I get people who have got surface level goals. They come to me like they want to be a better leader. They want to learn how to manage their team or something like that. And that's fine. Let's start there. But then I want to know what's really going to have you be happy. And some people know and they just don't think it's possible or they haven't put time and attention on making it happen. Some people haven't really asked themselves the question; how could my life be better? And that's the sum total of my initial sessions with a client; how can your life be better? Sometimes it's a business goal. If my business increased by 30%, that would do a lot for me financially and my family and then my life would be better. Okay maybe I'll buy that. But normally there are other things like what if my relationship with my partner was deeper? What if my kids opened up to me and talked to me about their life? What if I had the health that I wanted? So yeah I like digging into those questions like how could it be better? Joe: How can the people listening today sort of figure out what questions to ask themselves? Imagine we've got an audience that it's got a healthy mix of entrepreneurs that someday may sell their business. They're learning about buying and selling and preparing the business for sale. And then the other half of the audience might be those that are thinking you know what I'm going to buy one of these someday because they're unhappy in the corporate world or they've sold one and they don't want to take the risk of building another so they're choosing to buy. But let's focus first on those people that are struggling with the business that they have; they've grown it, they bootstrapped it, it's growing like crazy, and they're just trying to keep up. How does one identify what their own comfort level is with the size of the business or the staff or the growth? Because a lot of what we deal with are people that wait too long that things get pretty miserable because it's grown to the point where it's beyond their comfort level. They don't want to manage people. Mark and I had this conversation this morning and he's like we're doing an organizational chart here at Quiet Light Brokerage and I'm in a particular place mark and we're all in different places. The key center of our organization is the advisors; our team of advisers. And I'm straddling a couple of areas, Mark is straddling a couple of areas and we said to each other we have the right as entrepreneurs to do what makes us happy. We want to choose that path. How does one identify what it is that makes them happy? Is there a is there a process that that they would go through in terms of goal setting or asking questions of themselves and I will just stop rambling now answer that question help me out. David: So the question is how can people identify how they can be happy; what are the right questions they can ask themselves? And I love this, on 75 interviews last year no one's really asked me this question. So what I did is I went straight to my website and I'll read out some of the questions. I have a life assessment that anyone can take. And if you like we can give it to people at the end of the show. They can go and fill it in but I'll read out some of the questions. I have people in this assessment rate your life areas out of 10; business career fulfillment, wealth and money, your key relationship, health and peace. I even include relationship with yourself; like how much do you like yourself. So these are a few of the areas, there are a few more which I don't want to steal all the thunder. I'll leave some for people to find when they go and fill it in. And I have people rate them out of ten and that helps them look at oh wow this area is really a three; like my health and peace is a three, what's going on there? Or my relationship with my partner is like a six. Is that really okay with me? Like am I really going to leave the rest of my life at a six? So that's the first point and then I have people rate coaching areas; how about how are you doing with real goals? I'd like to talk about; and you heard this in my presentation at Ezra's Blue Ribbon, GPA, goals planning and action. So out of ten how are you doing with setting real goals, having a real plan, and taking real action? A lot of people would like to be more focused. We're kind of like a monkey on crack when it comes to getting work done. How about your daring, your caring, your decisiveness? So you rate these out of 10 and by the way this form doubles as prep if anyone wants to do a session with me. I use this as an intake because I want to go straight to wow you're doing great here, here, here, here, and here are three areas that look like they could be doing better. Which of these do you want to focus on? Joe: I think the real goals thing is amazing and critical and so obvious that everybody should be doing it but I don't think they do. I read decades ago; right David, we both got some gray on the chin that Harvard; I took a little class at Harvard, half the kids wrote down their goals and half didn't. Those that wrote down their goals were something like ten times as wealthy or successful and happy as those that didn't. One of the things that we're trying to do here and having you on is part of that mind shift. I want people to stop asking the question how much is my business worth, how much can I sell my business for, I'm ready to some business how much can I, how much can I? Instead set goals and say in three years I want to sell my business for X and then reverse engineer the pathway to that and understanding, gaining the knowledge on valuations and setting goals to that pathway exit. Are you working with people in terms of that goal section of their life whether it's personal, with their partner, with their business, with whatever it is that is weak on that scale and helping them with goals or do you just sort of act in a way almost, and what's the difference between a therapist and a life coach and a business coach in this situation? David: All right we've got three areas I want to address here. We'll see if I can track and remember all of them. The first one… Joe: I won't remember them all so don't worry about it. David: The first one is for me I like your process in this many years I want to sell my business for X. I think that's missing a key step. I would say firstly how do you want to feel in three years? It's incredible; and you can do this when you're doing a New Year's visioning session if you ever do that kind of thing. Like don't set goals first, set feeling goals. I want to feel this. And then you can set some goals that will help you feel that. I want to feel at peace. I want to feel deeply in love with my partner. I want to feel joy as I walk down the street and look at strangers. Those aren't some bad goals; actually this came off the top of my head. And then all right to feel like that what would I need to be doing? And I looked at well I love coaching. I've wrote this down; it was three or four years ago, I need to be more coaching and training because I'm inspired when that happens and I want to feel inspired. It's like oh wow I didn't know that. So it is a goal. So first step, how do I want to feel, secondly what do you need in your life to feel that and there might be a financial component to that. All right I need at minimum this amount of money to support these goals that are going to have me feel good. And you probably found this when you coach your clients, it might be less money than you thought the minimum. They have done some studies that show that first; I don't know how much it is 50 or 60 grand can really do a lot to provide happiness in the year and after that it drops way off because you need your own food and you want shelter and you want some basic peace. But after that that poor show that extra trip or vacation isn't going to do that much at all. So that's the first thing. And then there was a second component. I know I remember the therapy component but what was the other component to your question? Joe: I told you I wouldn't remember David. Come on, I'm serious. I meant it. David: Oh that's right. I wanted to say some people come to me ready with goals. They're like I know what I want I'm just not getting there fast enough. So we might do brainstorming or we might have to strategize a plan and they might just need some accountability to put attention on it. All right every week I'm going to do it. Other people it might take three to six sessions to peel the onion and to just uncover. They may not know yet. Like people would come to me with I want this this and this, six months later we've uncovered that; I'm working with an executive right now who finally has seen that he's really arrogant and he thinks he's smarter than everybody else which may be true but it's not serving him. He didn't come to me with that but it's a merge and it's impacting all of his relationships not just at work. Joe: Did he come to that realization and share it with you or did you go you know you think you're; how do you come about that realization? David: Well, sometimes I might gently point it out and I have that privilege because they're paying me. So I can say you know I think I have some feedback that might not be easy to hear but it might be very valuable, would you like to hear it? You're never going to get a no from someone who's paying you to hear your idea. But he came to me. He said you know what I think I can be a bit of a jerk and we; actually this was really fun. Sometimes you get to have fun in coaching. I said to him there's a chance. I know this is hippie woo-woo but I think you could really make a big difference for you if you're willing. It comes from the Himalayas and you're willing to trust me on this. He said all right. So I took him through this Himalayan chant. It starts with; maybe you've heard it, it starts with Owa Tajer Kiam and we did this and we kept on going and he got faster and faster saying it with me until he realized he was saying oh what a jerk I am, oh what a jerk I am, oh what a jerk I am. And when he finally got it he laughed so hard and that's part of my style is let's bring some humor to it. Yeah, you can be a jerk, so can I. When I'm frustrated I'll use my intelligence to belittle the waiter and they may not even know. And then I'll feel bad about it. But we're getting off track. So some people have a sense of what they want, other people it's going to take some time to uncover and I find that really fun and fascinating. And then you said how is coaching different from therapy. It's very contentious. A therapist will argue about this but once I heard this metaphor a therapist will help a man with a broken leg to walk again and a coach will help that man to run the four minute mile. Joe: Okay. That's not mental therapy though that's physical therapy. How do you differ from somebody sitting down and saying I'm unhappy with my life? David: Well the metaphor is more about someone who's really, really struggling to go from bad to okay versus helping someone to go from okay to good or from good to great. Joe: Okay. And you're the okay to good or good to great. David: Yeah, that's my target market. Now there are coaches who might be willing to work with someone who's really struggling financially. For example if someone's got a lot of historical stuff trauma and baggage from that; and I'm one of them, I have no judgment about that. That's not me. I would say a therapist could spend time with you to help you unpack and bring up all those feelings from the past and like that. I'm more interested in what do you want and what are you going to do about it and there is some overlap because sometimes people have limiting beliefs. And I've got one vice president who said I think I've got some limiting beliefs that are holding me back, can you help me with those? I'm like yeah we can bust those open. But I'm not going to do a lot of how was it when your father treated you this way and whatever; that's not my style. I'll refer someone to a therapist if it looks like there's some old stuff that's really holding them back. And a disclaimer and a plug for therapists there are some therapists who will work with people who are doing just fine and help them go to great. So it's a broad brush painting with right now. Joe: But I got to tell you in the future audience you may hear me say how do you want to feel in three years when you sell your business instead of what's your financial goal. What do you want to exit for? Inaudible[00:21:40.0] a combination of both. Because I've got to tell you people are this is their baby they've built it up and sometimes they're sad to sell it. But I'm interviewing people right now for the purposes of writing a book. Yes this is the second time I've mentioned this on the podcast and I will not be obnoxious and plug it all the time but it's fascinating. The idea is when that wire hits your account and you can do it with your phone now and you see all of those zeros in your bank account for the first time, what was that feeling like is the question that I asked. And the feeling was okay, that's good. Now I've got to get to work and helping with the transition of the business and keep going. It wasn't champagne popping and jubilation and things of that nature. And do you think that's because; and I heard this literally at three out of the five interviews that I've done so far. Do you think that is just because they're caught up in time focused on the work at hand versus setting a financial and feeling goal when someone exits their business? David: I think the question is why are people so quick to move on to the next thing and they're not celebrating and enjoying? Joe: Yeah I guess so. Thank you. You do a better job of reframing my questions than I do. Thank you. David: My pleasure. Firstly tell me do you have a working title for your book? Joe: I do. We talked about it. That's right. David: I think there was one line you said and like oh you got to hold on to that line. I can't remember what it was. Joe: We did. I've settled on; and this is the part where I'm either an idiot or brilliant. I sent out two title options; I already said it to everybody here, one was Incredible Exits which is a series we use here on the podcast for people who have sold their businesses. And the other was Exitpreneur. David: That's the one I remember, yeah. Joe: That's the one that stuck. Right. So I think probably 24 out of 25 people said Incredible Exits, go with it, it's just that. David: Do you remember the book title that I suggested? Joe: Yes Making Exit Sexy Again or something along that lines. David: No, that might be the subtitle but you said to me something like the real money is in the something. Joe: It's when you exit the business. Yeah the real money is when you exit. And then yes… David: It was nothing like where the real money is. I forgot what it was but I was very excited about it at the time. I really am. Joe: We're Making Financial Sexy Again that was the subtitle that you suggested. David: Your financials; because you said the real money is in the financials and people might get that and so you can make it sexy. Joe: Or eyes bleed. Well I ended up settling on The Exitpreneurs Playbook with the whole goal of setting a goal and reverse engineering your pathway to that. But we might add some feelings in that goal. David: Yeah. So speaking about reverse engineering I'll comment on why I think we're so quick to skip over the celebration but firstly I want to tweak or reframe something you said. I agree with you it would be good to ask them how do you want to feel when you sell the business. So that's great. I think that would be a good move. And what I'm talking about that I want to clarify it is much broader than that. I'm saying how do you want to feel in your life generally. Joe: Yeah. David: And so just for listeners to make sure that that's clear; how do you want to feel generally when you wake up, as you go about the day, when you go to bed. How do you want to feel and what kind of activities and things actually have you feel that and then reverse engineer the life of that. And you may find that money would be a component and that's where Joe can come in and help you maximize what you get for your business to support what you've already created in terms of your life goals. Now why I think we're so quick to skip and I'm one of them once a while this is I say why we are quick to skip the celebration and I got this from Dan Sullivan I think; a Strategic Coach. So we're looking forward, that's how we're oriented. We're looking forward and we constantly see the gap between where we are and where we want to be. And that's great that's the ego's job because it wants to put food on the table. But when we do that all we're going to see constantly are gaps. We're constantly going to see what there is to do and it can be overwhelming and we miss the celebration. If we want to feel good and acknowledge ourselves for how far we've come we have to turn around. Metaphorically look backwards and see how far we've come and that's the gain. So he talks about Gain and Gap and I'm always like all right that was good. Now what's next? And I have to slow down and even say to people we're celebrating or I'm going to pop some champagne or we're going to dinner or dinner's on me because I want to really acknowledge this win in my life that for example my health has been pretty rough for quite a while and I went out three times last week to go and be with people and get limbic connection and that's a win. So we can slow down and celebrate that and say wow look how great that is instead of looking forward to go there's still so much to do health wise to heal. So does that answer your question? Joe: It does. Thank you. Have you got any quick tips for those that are too afraid to hire a personal and business and life coach; have you got any quick tips in terms of somebody that's caught up in that grind every single day just trying to keep the wheels on the bus and not run out of inventory and deal with the coronavirus now and tariffs and so on and so forth? How do they kind of slow down and focus and appreciate what it is that they've got so that they can look forward with a clear vision? David: Yeah well I would recommend filling in the life assessment at PlayforReal.life. It'd take you five or 10 minutes and it's great information to have about your life. And then you can see oh maybe I want to work on the real goals, I'm going to sit down and do an hour session with myself and set some specific measurable targets that will have me feel great. So that's one thing. I like to talk about truth and daring in particular. Joe: I played that as a kid. David: Yeah well that's Truth or Dare. Joe: I know, I know. David: I like truth and dare. I don't know if those are quick tips but I think the more we speak out truth the better life gets the more attractive we get. We might rock the boat a few times and have some teething pains but I think… Joe: So speaking the truth to those around you, to yourself, is a daring thing to do? David: Most of us have grown up learning to hide things. We learn it covertly and subconsciously. We're like I'm just going to keep all this stuff in here and I'll show the world what's safe. And I get that and sometimes that's appropriate. But nine out of 10 times I think it separates us and a great leadership move and personal growth move is to share the things that are a little edgy. Hey when you said that I felt disappointed or I notice I want us to feel better working together and it feels strange and I don't know what it is to talk about it. Joe: It's hard to initiate that. David: Yeah. Joe: How do you initiate that? I remember I was a kid; I was in my 20s and I was volunteering at this theater in Portland, Maine and doing a massive renovation. It was going to end up being a concert venue and I volunteered to work my tail off so that I could become an employee of the company when it finally opened. And I got that opportunity and it really pissed off somebody else and we weren't done yet. We still had another three or four weeks and that person he could have been bumping into me with his shoulder because he was so upset he would have. It was that kind of you know mental stare and whatnot and finally I just said hey what have I done to upset and offend you? And it was hard for me to figure out what to say but it worked and we became friends afterwards oddly enough. And so I did; I was truthful and confronted him I dared to and it worked out very well but it's very hard to do. David: Yeah. Joe: How do you bridge that gap and say it? David: Well the biggest obstacle is most people aren't even aware of those troops that are swimming around in their subconscious. They're just like that guy's a dick. Or that I don't like her or I'm just not going to work with him again. He's unreliable, right? We don't even see that I could speak up and possibly change this. So that's the first thing is become aware of it. And I'm working on an app called it; that will help you do a true thought to try and work out oh what are the truths that I could say if I felt courageous? Secondly once you work it out say it's like that guy and you're feeling like things are strained and you want to bring up the conversation, the thing that gets in the way is lack of clarity. You're not aware yet what your hope or intention is like what's the good that could come out of it? You haven't generated that yet. So it's a bit murky. You're not totally clear what you're afraid of. It's probably something like he might get defensive or it might be really awkward and might make things worse. But that's not clear in the mind. So I have a free download on the on the website. It's called A Four Step Tough Conversations Blueprint and the worksheet will help you get clear, it'll even ask you is there a request you could make; something they could do that would improve the situation? so you get clarity then you're going to be much more likely to have the conversation because like oh now I know what's going on. Before I was just this jumble of I just didn't like what was happening. Then once you got the clarity you can follow the four steps which give you to them in a nutshell. You asked permission, don't just dump the conversation; can I talk to you about something for a few minutes? You share one hope and one fear. My hope is that we'll feel more connected after it because I'm feeling like things are a little strange now my hesitation is I might make it worse. But are you willing; can I share the issue? And then three you share the issue and make your request. My request would be just that you let me know what's going on or if there's any way I can improve the situation. Joe: You make it sound very easy. David: Well I've had a lot of practice doing them and talking about it and the worksheet really does make it a lot easier. I'm not saying you're not going to feel uncomfortable and I'm not saying there isn't risk. That's what makes it a little bit exciting but your chances of it going better are much clearer because you'll have the steps. You can even take a printout with you and say I wrote down some talking points because I wanted to do a good job at this. And then the step four; super important, is get curious and listen. How is this from your side? What are you experiencing? Do you have a better idea than what I do? And then you shut up and you listen and then you'll work it out together. Joe: I love it. Can you summarize for us as we're wrapping up and running out of time how is it David that this is helpful for people in business; the entrepreneurs that are here in the audience? David: Oh my God. It's helpful for everyone but specifically in business you want your staff to be motivated and empowered. I had my assistant quit out of nowhere. She did only three things that weren't working for her and she didn't have the training as most people don't know how to speak up. She didn't even consider a conversation was possible. So by you learning these techniques and practicing it you can model it for others so that you can have more communication among your team. You become more attractive as a leader. You're going to build more loyalty that people want to work with you. They will have a sense that they can trust you. You'll have more customers because your energy is going to shift. And they'll be like oh wow; like Ezra, right? I say one of the reasons that people go and pay and be part of Blue Ribbon Mastermind is because of who Ezra is and how he shows up. And he's learned how to have these conversations and speak truth. So if we had more time I could probably go into 10 more benefits but here's one final benefit. You will feel better and you will like yourself more if you're speaking truth. Joe: Yeah that's a pretty huge benefit, that's called being happy. So I'm going to go ahead and download it myself. I know you and I are going to chat personally next week and I'm very confident that I will actually become one of your clients and maybe we'll have you back on and talk about my personal experience and how we went through that process and what it's made; a difference for me, in my life here at Quiet Light Brokerage. All right. Any last minute thoughts and then of course again the URL at how people reach you if they want to touch base and possibly have a coaching session or just learn more from what you do on the website. David: Yeah. Thank you. So my last thoughts are you're doing great; wherever you are, whatever you're doing, life is incredibly complex. I'm going to do a rant sometime on this. Things are designed to break down. That's how it's going to work. And you made it this far. You're doing great. You don't need anything else. That's the number one thing. Secondly there's always room for more; for things to be better. That's the game I'm playing. How I do better and get the most out of this this life. And so if you want to practice speaking a truth more maybe having a few tough conversations I think that'll help. Setting goals and really we didn't talk about laser focused action but those are some things that can help. My invitation, if people want to find out more or get in touch with me PlayforReal.life is my website and there are three cool things you can do at that site all at the same link. One you can download this blueprint if you want to have a blueprint; a roadmap for your tough conversations. Secondly I have my own podcast if you want to listen to me as well as Joe. I've got Tough Conversations with David Wood, you can subscribe at the website. And the third thing if something resonated for you on this call and you'll like I want life to be better. I want business to be better and if you think you might be coachable like you're open to input see if you qualify for a discovery session. If you qualify I don't charge for that one because it's fun and too because it's how I find the right people to work with long term. We'll actually dive into your life and business and create a plan. And if you want to implement it on your own, keep me posted. Let me know how it goes and if we both believe that coaching can have a big impact we'll talk about setting up coaching and that's all at PlayforReal.life. Joe: All right. Well I'm looking forward to it myself David. Thanks for coming on the show I appreciate it. And I hope you can help a lot of people in the audience just be happier in life and happier and more successful in business. Thank you very much. David: My pleasure Joe. Thank you. Links and Resources: Play For Real David's Podcast  

How do handwritten notes help businesses improve outbound meeting books, increase customer retention and boost customer loyalty? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Handwrytten Founder David Wachs explains how combining handwritten notes with inbound marketing can yield incredible results, and how his company is helping customers automate and send handwritten notes at scale. Check out the episode to here exactly how Handwrytten works and how companies large and small are using it to increase sales and improve customer retention. Highlights from my conversation with David include: David is the Founder of Handwrytten, which enables companies to automate handwritten notes at scale. Handwrytten has a website and smartphone app interface, as well as integrations with Salesforce, HubSpot and Zapier. The notes that Handwrytten creates are generated using robots that hold real pilot G2 ballpoint pens, so they look incredibly authentic. Handwrytten is growing at about 300% a year. Companies use Handwrytten in three different ways: 1) sending thank you notes to customers; 2) ecommerce companies include notes in-box with new orders; and 3) outbound outreach. Handwrytten clients that use handwritten notes for outbound meeting booking requests get 3x to 4x more responses, which tracks with the fact that handwritten envelopes get opened three to four times more than typed ones do. One of the companies ecommerce clients has improved customer retention by 5 to 10% by including handwritten notes in their boxes. Several other clients have gotten valuable social proof when their customers post pictures of the handwritten notes they receive on their social media accounts, driving incredible brand loyalty. Handwrytten offers a number of options for customizing notes, from custom handwriting fonts, to inserting your business card or a gift card, etc Resources from this episode: Visit the Handwrytten website Follow David on Twitter Connect with David on LinkedIn Request samples from Handwrytten Follow Handwrytten on Instagram Follow Handwrytten on Pinterest Listen to the podcast to learn how companies are using automated handwritten notes to get better inbound marketing results at scale. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth and this week my guest is David Wachs who is the founder of Handwrytten. Welcome David. David Wachs (Guest): Thank you very much Kathleen. I'm thrilled to be here. David and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: I am really excited to have you here and I say that every week. I do really mean it, but I'm really excited for this one and I have to share this story with my listeners because how this happened I think is so serendipitous. Not that long ago, a few weeks ago, I was sitting around my dining room table with my husband on a Sunday morning and I subscribe to the Washington Post, which I get once a week, and I read this article in the Washington Post that mentioned this company called Handwrytten and talked about what it was doing and how it helps businesses send handwritten notes. I stopped him and I was like, "You have to read this. This is really interesting. We should check this out." Not more than one week later, David sends me a LinkedIn message saying, "Hey Kathleen, I've been listening to your podcast and I would love to come on." I was like, wait, what? This is the same person. How did that just happen? Anyway, that's my story of how David and I connected. David, can you tell my listeners a little bit about yourself, Handwrytten, and what led you to start this business because I think it's really cool? About David Wachs and Handwrytten David: Well thank you very much and it really is an honor to be here. I am a listener to the show and I've learned a lot and because of it I am now an Inc. contributor because I listened to one of your episodes where you talked about getting your own content out there in a number of ways as well as a lot of other stuff. Thank you for putting on this wonderful podcast. I've actually been doing Handwrytten - we are a six year old startup - I've been doing this for six years now and I have to apologize, there's some construction noise in the background that I have no control over, so hopefully ... Kathleen: I don't hear anything, but if we hear a beep, beep, beep, we'll hope that nobody's backing up into your office. David: I started this six years ago. Prior to Handwrytten, and this is important as to why I started Handwrytten, I had a company that did text messaging and in that business we'd send millions of text messages a day for large brands like Abercrombie and Fitch, ToysRUs, Chicago Tribune and others. What I realized from that, while all that marketing worked and people came out in droves to tropical smoothie cafe and Abercrombie and those types of things, when we sent the messages, they were quickly forgotten and deleted. I started looking around when it was time to exit Sell It - the name of the company was Sell It - when I was looking around for other opportunities and I walk into my sales people's offices and I'd see handwritten notes on display in their offices. Not only were they kept, but they were treasured. I think a lot of this is because the average office worker gets 147 or 150 emails a day. You typically get about 40 to 50 text messages a day, something crazy like that. In all that, and with new tools, and I know HubSpot's a great tool, but tools like HubSpot and all the rest, it's easier and easier to send all these emails and electronic forms of communication. After a while it all just becomes noise. When somebody takes the time to send you a handwritten note, it really stands out as something unique and thoughtful and cherish. I thought, gee, I'm too lazy to actually send handwritten notes. For my mom's birthday, I would go to the Walgreens, buy a greeting card, promised myself I'd mail it, stick it in my briefcase, and never get around to it because I wouldn't get a stamp, and I'd never sit down to write it. Kathleen: I may or may not have that problem in common with you. David: This happened over and over and in all my suitcases and briefcases, I find banged up birthday cards and stuff. I thought there has to be a way to automate this. That's what led us to start Handwrytten, was being able to take an offline form of communication and make it scale in the same way that emails and texts and tweets and all that does. We do that through technology in a few forms. On the front-end or what you use, we have a website where you can type in one handwritten note or upload a spreadsheet of 10,000. We've got iPhone apps and Android apps mostly for consumers, but they can be used for businesses as well. Then we have a salesforce.com integration. Directly from Salesforce, you can send notes and track them. HubSpot CRM integration, and then Zapier integration. All these methods are trying to turn our software really into a platform where you can send handwritten notes wherever you want and even better, hopefully automate that so you don't even have to think about it. Then on the other side, the way we fulfill your orders, is we have now about 85 robots that we build here in our facility in Phoenix, Arizona. Each robot holds a real pen. It's a pilot G2 ballpoint pen. You can buy them at Staples, and it writes your note out just like you would. In fact it's no faster, maybe a little bit slower than you are, but it doesn't take any breaks. We're constantly building robots to keep up with demand. We don't sell the robots or lease them out, we just keep building them and putting them on racks in our facility here. We've got about 85 of those. They're pretty cool. They're 3D printed and laser cut and there's all sorts of cool technologies that I've learned about throughout this process. When the notes come off the line, if I'm staring at some of the notes that might have the handwriting styles that I am not familiar with, perhaps it's a handwriting style of like a client and we've custom made it, I am flabbergasted because it looks so real. I see it coming off the machine and I can't tell the difference. Anyway, we're doing about a hundred thousand last month. December was a very busy month. We did about 115,000 of those notes. We've been growing at about 300% a year, so after six years we're finally hitting our stride. It was a long curve, but it's been a very interesting process because we have clients that range the gamut. They range from individual realtors and mortgage brokers all the way up to high-end Italian goods manufacturers that sends us with their quarterly catalog. I'm happy to talk about all those. In a nutshell, if I had to segment how clients use us, they really use us in three different ways. They use us for thank you notes or correspondence to existing clients. That is if you buy a home or if you buy a handbag or whatever, we will package up a handwritten note with a handwritten envelope and then mail it out to you. The second way is we do in-box. For large online mattress companies or meal box companies, when you open up that meal box or that mattress box, you might find a handwritten note sitting at the top of that package that says thank you so much for your purchase. We all really care about what you think. Review us on Amazon, Yelp, Trustpilot, or whatever that is, or refer us to your friends. We do a lot of that. Then the third is the outbound outreach, such as a jewelry store. They might be opening up in a new location. We'll do a database pull of all the homes in that area that meets certain revenue criteria and then send them all a handwritten note. Now that is very expensive because you're paying for a real forever stamp. Unlike a junk mail piece, which is just printed, we have to start at that level. We have to print something, print the stationary, and then we have to write on top of it. It's never going to be as cheap as a junk mail piece, but it also gets opened substantially more frequently and I can talk about that. Those are the three ways: inbox, send via the mail to existing clients and customers, and then outreach to new prospects, but the new prospects is rather small just because it is so expensive. Kathleen: I have so many questions I want to ask you. David: Go for it. How do handwritten notes fit in with digital marketing? Kathleen: I'm about to ask my question, but before I do, I want to let everyone who's listening know you're going to notice that it sounds a little different because David and I were talking and we heard a little echo on his end. We've switched gears and he's called in so that we can give you guys better audio. That's why, if things sound a little different, you're not going crazy. What I wanted to ask you, David, I think it's so fascinating what you're doing and I want to zoom out and start big picture, which is that, so much of, when we talk about inbound marketing these days, we're almost 99% of the time we're talking digital. You've almost, everyone else is going right you're going left. You've gone really back and you're investing in this very traditional form of, I don't even know if most people would call it marketing. Handwritten letters. It's a very old school approach. Talk a little bit about, if you would, how you see that fitting in with digital marketing or the future of marketing in general. David: Yeah, and I hope everybody can hear me. I think as everything's gone digital people are really craving human connection and they can't go to the store now and know that person that sold them the good in China on Amazon. They want to feel like there is a human on the other end of that Amazon shipping box. That's really where we step in. When I started this company six years ago, the tagline was and still is: quality cards, your words in pen and ink. Really we were quality cards first because we thought everybody wanted that tactile experience. That's certainly part of it, but how does this fit into digital marketing? Well we think marketing is marketing and sales is sales and you have to have a holistic cross channel approach. When you visit the Handwrytten website, and obviously this is a very specific example because it has to do with us, but when you visit the Handwrytten website and you request handwriting samples, that triggers a whole Zapier flow that obviously includes a handwritten note that gets sent out to you automatically. We do this a lot for insurance firms and other people as well. The same website form interaction flow. On top of that, you also get emails and you get phone calls from us. I don't see Handwrytten the company being any different than anybody else. If you're looking to reach out to your clients, whether they're inbound leads or outbound prospects, you want to have a multichannel approach. Not everybody quite frankly connects online. For example, we're working with some healthcare brands and they're trying to go after Medicare seniors and they're finding a lot of these patients aren't responding to emails. By sending them a handwritten note to get them to come into the doctor or sign up to their plan or whatever it is, it's able to appeal to a different demographic. David: Also, there is definitely a novelty factor. I think the average person receives between one and two actual handwritten notes, or we're an actual handwritten note too, handwritten notes a month. While you might get hundreds of junk mail pieces and tens of thousands of emails during that time, this is a very different piece of mail that you're going to receive. I think it can apply almost universally. People say, who are your clients? We say it's anybody that wants to use the mail. That's really what it is. I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I think whether it's an inbound campaign or an outbound communication process that you're trying to build, you have to think about voice and you have to think about obviously email and perhaps social, but you should also think about what's your mail strategy and does that mail strategy include handwritten notes. Kathleen: Yeah. It's interesting to me because I've been observing what's happening with marketing and with consumer behavior and there definitely is a little bit of a craving. I think I agree with you for things that harken back to a different time because we have gotten into this era of everything being so digital and so disconnected in terms of, you're not necessarily talking to a real person and everything's very automated. I think it's interesting that there's this resurrection of the handwritten letter at this time. I also think it's interesting as the parent of a 13-year-old that kids that age are not being taught cursive in school anymore and I can see where the prospect, especially for younger people coming into the workforce, the prospect of sitting down and having to spend time writing out notes, cards, letters, what have you, seems daunting because they're not really taught to write the way that perhaps somebody my age was when we went through school. Examples of companies using handwritten notes in their marketing David: Yeah, absolutely. This stuff does work. We know that handwritten envelopes, forget about the actual note itself, but the handwritten envelope gets opened three times as frequently as a printed envelope. We have clients that are doing outbound meeting booking requests, and they get about a three to four X response right there versus sending out email blasts. We've got Team Rubicon, which is one of the...Unfortunately most clients don't want us to mention who they are, but we have a few examples that do. Nobody wants to be known as sending notes through us, but Team Rubicon, it's a nonprofit organization and they've been able to improve their redonation rates substantially. A meal box subscription is able to increase its customer retention by 5% to 10%, which was moving the needle for them. Just the simple thing of including this little note in the box has had some really cool results. Another side effect is thanks to Instagram and pint-, I guess more Instagram and Twitter, people are tweeting and Instagram sharing the notes they receive. Another client that I'm allowed to mention is a VYNL, V. Y. N. L. They're a record subscription. They are perfect for us because they're old school records and we're old school handwritten notes and a lot of people will Instagram and tweet pictures of the handwritten notes they received from VYNL. What's so amazing about VYNL is each note is individually curated for the recipient. it's like, "Hey Kathleen, I saw on Spotify you listen to whomever, because you're listening to that band we sent you these two other records." Then that note gets written out by us and then every day we ship notes to VYNL and they insert them with records. It's pretty cool. There is that Instagramming, tweeting element, which gets back to your online marketing strategy. What's crazy is we work with one client that runs a huge, one of the most popular daily YouTube shows, and they were trying to create a fan club basically, and part of that $5 admission to the fan club, you get a handwritten note from the stars of the video. People were complaining if they didn't get their handwritten note fast enough, which was crazy. They'd see all these handwritten notes online and the YouTube group didn't change it up per person. Pretty much the same note everybody got, but they loved it so much that they would complain if they didn't get that note fast enough. Oftentimes, I mean the vast majority of the times it had nothing to do with us. It was just the post office or a bad address or whatever, but it was really interesting to see that. I think all of this just comes down to customer experience management and improving that process for the individual because they feel so genericized by everything else. We have one client that does snack boxes for offices. You could sign up and get a box of granola and chips and whatever else and they'll send it to you on a monthly basis. What they found was if they screwed up your order on your snack, and then they followed up with sending another free snack box with the handwritten note, now granted the free snacks play a huge part in this, they follow up with a free snack box and the handwritten note, your loyalty was much higher than if they never screwed up at all. Then they actually started screwing up on purpose. Kathleen: That's hysterical. David: Yeah, because they found that it added so much value to have that experience where you reprove yourself to the clients. That was super interesting to us as well. Kathleen:That's incredible. I don't know whether I feel like it's just sad or exciting that people are so thrilled to get a handwritten note that the tweet it. It's sad in the sense that it's become a lost art, truly. I still do force my kids to send handwritten thank you notes after Christmas. It's so funny because some of them resist and don't necessarily always do it. The younger ones I can stand over and force them and they're always like, why? Why do I have to do it? No one does this anymore. I'm like, you will do it. David: That's exactly why they should do it is because nobody does it anymore. Customizing the handwriting for your notes Kathleen: Exactly. Well, that's neat. Now I want to switch gears for a second and talk about, somebody listening and they're like, this sounds really interesting and I might want to do it. You said something earlier that really peaked my interest, which is that you can customize the handwriting. Talk to me about that because that I did not realize and that is a game changer. David: Yeah, so we have two options there. One, you can use any of our pre-canned fonts. I shouldn't call them fonts, handwriting styles. You can find them on Handwrytten.com and those, I think we're up to 18 currently, and they range from overly fancy Jenna, to compact Lulu, to very blocky, to everything in between. Most clients can get by with those. If you want to go and actually have your own handwriting style made, it is a process. It's really an art form. We have two people here. That's all they do is generate these handwriting styles. It's not cheap. Relatively, I guess it's cheap. It's about a thousand dollars one time fee, but it takes several days for us to perfect that style because it's not just writing out the alphabet and writing out capitals and lowercase, but it's writing six copies of each letter, and then writing a ligature combinations, which are like two O's together, two L's together, two T's, because the way you'd write two T's, would you cross them with one line. How do your double O's look? Do you loop those together? All that type of stuff gets taken to account and then the end result is something that looks pretty darn close to your own handwriting. For a much lower fee of a thousand, instead of that, for $250 we can just do your signature and then you could just insert that in any note. The thousand dollars does include the signature. You get it for "free" there. We do have about 60 to 65 clients that have done that. The vast majority of our clients just use one of our, I don't even have my own custom style, I just use one on the website. Kathleen: Right, the cobbler's child. Right? David: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We didn't even send out Christmas cards this year for the same reason. We were too busy sending everybody else's. That's how all that works. I will say, like I said earlier, they do look, overall the biggest question we got is, we get a few questions, but the number one question is, does it look real? I would say on some of those to me it fools me even, but if I were to hand you a handwritten note and I say, "Hey Kathleen, did you receive my handwritten note?" You'd say, "Absolutely. Looks great. Thank you so much for thinking about me." If I said to you, "Hey Kathleen, what did you think of that handwritten note? Could you tell it's written by a robot?" If I asked you that it's going to change your viewing of that handwritten note entirely. At that point maybe 50/50 you might determine, oh wow, at the bottom it looks like that. Oh, at the top or something like that. Kathleen: Right. The lines are very clean. That's the one thing I noticed. When I write, I'm all over the place, but that's the only tell to me is that it's very linear, I don't know if that's the word, but... David: Yeah. We're getting there. On that way we actually have two different types of what we call jitter. We have a left margin jitter so that the left margin moves in and out every line. It doesn't look like you started the characters at the same spot. Then we also have, and maybe some of these aren't showing up in the samples on the website, but we do jittering. Then the other type of jitter we do is interline jitter. One line to the next below it is going to have a different spacing than the line below that. We vary that on a line-by-line basis. We do not angle those lines because that would look overly done. That jitter amount is incredibly subtle because we find people aren't super close then super far then super close. It's within only a couple of points per line that we jitter both of those, but we do try to make it subtle enough where, it's not going to look too perfect with a hard edge on the left side of the screen. Kathleen: This is totally fascinating to me. It sounds like you guys have studied human behavior as regards how people write notes with an incredible level of detail. I will say that to me, $1,000 to have a custom font made for your handwriting seems incredibly reasonable if you're going to do any volume. That pays for itself very quickly. Having said that, it's really funny because I'm on your site right now looking at the handwriting samples and I've determined that I am somewhere in between messy Michael and darlin Darlene. David: Yeah. All the styles are actually, this is where we become a small company all of a sudden, all the styles are named after either me and my family. I am casual David, even though that's not my handwriting, or office workers. It's down to the point where even my dog, who's the office dog compact to Lulu because she's six pounds and compact, has her own handwriting style there. The real popular ones, or my favorites are, tenacious Nick, chill Charity, dapper Will. They all look really great and what's nice about if you choose one of these standard 18 handwriting styles, we're constantly refining those styles and just making sure they look better and better. For example, with the very formal cursive styles, they look wonderful, but then if somebody were to write something in all caps in that cursive, it looks weird. Now we're going back and refining all those ligature, they're not really ligature combinations, but combinations of all cap words written in a cursive style. You just go down a rabbit hole of things you want to improve on each of these things. Luckily we have ASU, Arizona State University, not too far away. We have the design students from there come in and they help us with all that because it's a lot. There's a lot to be done. Kathleen: That's so fascinating. I could talk for hours about these little details and I think it's really cool that you are paying attention to the details in that way because if you're going to do this, I think it would totally backfire if it wasn't done well. If it's an obvious robotic attempt at writing a card. David: Yeah. We actually have one client that their quality assurance person, who is in a quality assurance mindset, was rejecting our cards because each card looked different. We said to him, well, that's the whole point. Not each card is supposed to be identical because people are, I know for a fact, for their brand, people do Instagram and do Pinterest and all that stuff, pictures of their cards, and if two people see the exact same card with the exact same spacing and everything else, it's going to look terrible to them. I was able to get them over that hump. It was funny that that was...He came at it from sourcing or let's get this laser printed perspective, and we said, no, no, no, that's not how it's supposed to be. They are all supposed to have a little variation so it looks more realistic. What types of cards can you choose from? Kathleen: Yeah. Yeah. To that point, my understanding from looking at your site is you can do folded cards or flat cards, correct? David: Yes. Yep. Really we can write on pretty much any piece of paper. On our website, we've got an inventory of about a hundred folded cards to choose from. Most of those now are designed in-house by us under the Red Wagon label. Nothing ever says Handwrytten when it comes in the mail, because we don't want to be the ones to spoil that. Those will come with that on the back. Instead of saying Hallmark, it says Red Wagon. In addition to that, we've got a variety of either blanks or blank on one side, 5X7 flat cards. With those, if they're totally blank on both sides, you can put a big image on the back, or I think confusingly which is called the front in our system, and then on the other side you can put your logo at the top and maybe a footer at the bottom and then we'll write between that and it looks like a nice luxurious piece of stationary. That is a very popular option. If you're a larger client and you've got your own stationary like some of our luxury brands do or whatever, they can always obviously just send that to us and we'll use that instead. What's nice about the online card customizer is it's so simple. You can literally spend like, I'm doing demos for prospects and I'll go online and in three minutes with them on a Zoom call, I'll create a piece of stationary that looks totally legitimate for them to use and then we can write it on it and send them a sample on their own stationery. It looks really good. The reason it's a flat card and not a folded card is basically we're resource constrained at Handwrytten currently and we can't afford a huge digital press that we'd then have to cut everything down and all that so it's easier if we just stick to a 5X7 flat card and it allows us to offer these at a price point in quantity one where it still makes sense. Kathleen: Yeah. David: It's $3.25. Kathleen: You guys also do handwritten envelopes too, correct? David: Everything is handwritten. The note is handwritten. The envelope is handwritten. There's a real forever stamp put on that piece if we're mailing domestically or an international first class stamp, if we're mailing outside of the United States. In addition to sending cards, clients can send us their business cards and we can insert those. There is a small fee for that for the storage and handling all those business cards. How companies are using Handwrytten David: Then additionally we've got probably 15 different denominations of gift cards for you to choose from. Amazon, Starbucks, Target, Home Depot, Visa gift cards, that type of thing. You could choose any of those and include that with your order at checkout too. We do a lot of $5 Starbucks cards typically for, "Thank you for meeting with me - here's a coffee on me" type things. We also do quite a few Home Depot for realtors and mortgage brokers. Kathleen: Oh yeah, that's a good idea. David: Yeah. Then also quite frankly for lazy people sending birthdays to their friends wherever, we do a lot of visa cards for that. I would say by and large, our biggest seller is the $5 Starbucks. Kathleen: Yeah, I could see it being really useful for companies that are trying to get more online reviews for their products. Somebody reviews you, you send them a thank you with a little gift card as a token of your thanks. That seems like a complete no brainer. David: Yeah, and we do a lot of that for Amazon sellers. Amazon's changed up the rules a little bit, so now it's not allowed to go out and contact them outside of the channel. You can't just send them a note in the mail. Now we're just inserting those notes with the packages themselves prior to getting shipped to Amazon for fulfillment, but we do a lot of those types of notes for them. Then a thank you for your referral and then a ton of insurance renewal type. When your insurance is up for renewal, it automatically triggers through Zapier a handwritten note to you thanking you for your renewal. On the inbound side, quite frankly, I think a lot of it is automatic triggering on forms. When people fill out a form online, that rep might take a few days to get in touch with them and in that time, we send all notes within typically the next business day. Then the post office takes their snail mail time to get to you. It's a nice follow up to whenever the rep contacts you. Kathleen: Yeah, that's what I was thinking of is I could see a lot of applications in sales. I could also see, in one of my previous roles I had, my team did an annual conference and I could see sending it to people who've registered for the conference or sponsors or even follow ups after the conference. There's so many different ways to use it with events. David: Absolutely. We were able to get our hands on the attendee list for our conference luckily a few weeks before the conference started, and we were able to track down all the mailing addresses. I didn't even attend that conference quite frankly. I just sat in the lobby and it was by far the most successful conference we ever had because we had meetings booked. I had so many meetings booked. I had to cut meetings short to get to the next meeting. It was great. It was a great example that our service worked for ourselves. It is absolutely great for pre-conference meeting scheduling and post-conference followup. It certainly does break through the din. How to automate handwritten notes Kathleen: Going back to something that you started with. I wanted to just revisit the...You talked about really this evolving into a platform because you have these integrations, so for people who are listening, it sounds like you have the option of doing this in a very transactional way. Either sending you a CSV file with a bunch of names and addresses or you could literally connect this to your CRM and trigger actions from there, correct? David: Yeah, absolutely. Our deepest integration right now is with Salesforce and in Salesforce you can send a handwritten note from the account screen, from the contact, from the lead, or from the opportunity. Then we could also automate through Salesforce. There's automation play, which was called process builder. Quite frankly, I'm a much bigger fan of Zapier, so even if they know how to do process builder, I know nothing about it. I say just spend the $29 a month and do Zapier and send it out. That way it's much easier. Either through Salesforce or through Zapier, you can do it. What's nice about doing it in Zapier or through HubSpot's CRM is any time you send a Handwrytten note, it's recorded in the CRM systems - within Salesforce or within HubSpot's CRM timeline. Therefore, when you go into that record and you see, "Oh, I called Kathleen on Monday, I sent her an email on Tuesday, I sent her a Handwrytten note with a $5 Starbucks on Wednesday", all that's recorded in your CRM platform. Then depending on the CRM platform, I know Salesforce is really robust in this way, your manager can oversee you and see all the notes you sent. Track your spend. Maybe not allow you to send gift cards or not allow you to send too many notes a month or whatever it is. We are looking to expand on that more into HubSpot and into Shopify. Trying to get these small stores to automatically follow up upon certain thresholds. On Shopify, if I send somebody a third order or they've spent over $500 in their lifetime with me or whatever that is, that would automatically trigger a note. Currently, we do all that through Zapier, but we just want to make it more transparent by putting it directly in the Shopify store. Quite frankly, for Handwrytten, I just want to be everywhere and every touch point is better SEO and it's more availability, more people will know about us and that type of stuff. Even if they in the end, commonly uses us through Zapier or uploading a CSV into our website. Kathleen: The real power of this to me is just that it has the potential to eliminate the human error factor. As somebody who works with companies as a head of marketing, I think there's so much potential to, I was mentioning before, integrate this in the sales process. I'm a marketer who loves working closely with sales teams because obviously you can judge yourself based on the number of qualified leads you pass to a sales team, but really with marketing, at the end of the day, it all comes down to how many of those leads turn into customers. I like to look at what happens after that lead gets passed over. I think being able to say, okay, we did a demo for this person. When that's marked off in Salesforce or in HubSpot CRM, if I can go in and automatically trigger it so that handwritten note goes out, I don't then have to rely on the sales team. It also makes their life easier, which improves my relationship with them. Anything marketing can do to make sales life easier, is always a good thing. I know for sure that it's going to happen. To me that makes it incredibly appealing as a marketer. David: Yeah, and that's where we're really trying to get with all of our clients. We want to be the plumbing of the organization on the handwritten notes side. You have your email plumbing and your CRM plumbing, but we want to be the handwritten note plumbing that you don't even think about. You just know it's going to work. For instance, we work with a solar panel installation company in Louisiana and they're sending about 400 notes a day. All of these notes are simply triggered off of people setting up meetings. They don't do anything. These notes are automatically triggered. They don't even have to think about it. We have a major car manufacturer if you call into their main customer support number in Detroit, and I'm not sure why you'd call them versus your dealership, but whenever people still do call the car manufacturer, depending on if you were resolved or unresolved in the call center, it automatically triggers one of three different handwritten notes to that car buyer. That purchaser saying "I'm so happy we were able to help you" or "I'm so sorry we weren't able to resolve this" whatever. To your point, exactly, it's taking the compliance or the follow through aspect out of it. The last thing you want to do is sit down and you're trying to answer the phone and you don't want to have to sit down and remember to send 40 handwritten notes and have your hand cramp up and everything else. We work with a super premium luxury perfume company and we do all their online purchases. We send handwritten notes following an order. I was just walking through a department store with my wife and they had that premium brand and I pointed it out, and the store clerk came up and she was asking me why I was pointing it out and I said, oh, it's because we do the handwritten notes for you guys. She goes, "No, you don't." I have to write all my own handwritten notes and it takes all day to do it and that's a pain in the neck. I said, "Well, we do it for the online orders." She said, "Well, geez, you should do it for me too", because she's very busy. I'm sure she can't get around to sending all her handwritten notes. If she does, maybe they start looking terrible by the end of the day because her hands cramped or whatever. We're doing a lot of that trying to make the online experience just as good as the offline. Kathleen: That's awesome. I think this is a no brainer. I know I'm going to be using it in some capacity, but I've been fascinated by solutions like this for a while because the same pain point that you expressed when you started the company, I felt that a few years ago and I went and started Googling to try to find a solution and there wasn't really one that existed. There were some very, very high priced ones that if you're a company that's going to do tremendous volume, it might be worth investing in it, but there weren't any good solutions that supported a lower volume and a smaller budget. I love that you have a solution that spans all of that. I think that's great. It makes it so much more accessible. David: Right now for better or worse, I actually wrote a medium post about this, our big competitor who you probably saw, they are no more because they spent all their money on marketing and very little money on technology. I come from a technology background and I spent all our money on technology so that we could support the business and maximize throughput of messages so that you didn't have to have somebody sitting there placing each note individually on a handwriting robot like they did. They are no more, and right now we are pretty much the only game in the United States. I know of one in Germany doing it and the big problem we're coming across right now are companies claiming to be handwritten, but we've received their product and it's laser printed. There's a little bit of market confusion out there currently, but in the actual handwritten notes space in North America, we are in an interesting position to be the only game in town right now. You'd think we'd be bigger given that. We're getting there. We're definitely getting there. Kathleen: Oh, I have a feeling that in a few years everyone is going to be talking about you. Well not even a few years. I don't think it's going to take long because it's a really great product and it sells itself to me at least. David: Thank you. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Well, I want to make sure I save enough time to ask you my questions that I always ask all my guests. The first one is, we talk a ton about inbound marketing on this podcast. When you think about companies or individuals out there who are practicing inbound marketing, who do you think is really doing it well right now? David: This is actually not a client of ours, but I have some friends that do digital marketing and we've been talking about it. I actually ran this question by them because I knew you're going to ask it. There's a company called GhostBed based in Florida. They do online mattresses. They've been doing them quite a long time and they rely heavily on people writing video reviews or doing video reviews and putting them on Instagram or on Twitter and then they pull them off those social channels and actually put them on their website and then they tag you with that ad roll and everything else once you're there. They really got ya. I know they use a marketing influencer network. I think they're using one called Intellifluence, but they do a very good job. As far as our clients, I think VYNL does a very good job within their niche of building this huge branding presence on, for certain, very specific niche demographics. Those hipsters that want to receive old fashioned vinyl. They've done a great job of getting out there and getting in front with a lot of Instagram and a lot of Facebook marketing and then driving that back to their website and then just having everybody, at least when we started, there was a lot of excitement about these handwritten notes with them and there was a lot of taking pictures of those and posting them online. That worked really well. Then I got to say we've done a pretty good job of it just because of the cobbled together HubSpot-like platform we've built, which is a nine or 10 step Zapier zap that when you come in and you request, I will warn all your listeners, that if they request samples, they're going to get emails from members of my team and then a phone call and they're going to be put in our CRM system and all that. That whole process is totally automated. I'm pretty happy about the inbound processing machine we've created here based on creating an item of value, which is a handwritten note sample that people want to receive. I think GhostBed has done a really pretty incredible job. Kathleen: Oh, I can't wait to check that out. It's amazing what you can do with Zapier. It's pretty limitless. David: It really is. I should work for them. Kathleen: Yeah. I had a guy named Connor Malloy as one of my guests many episodes ago. He's from a company called Chi City Legal. I think it's him and one partner that have a law practice in Chicago and he runs his entire practice on Zapier on basically zero budget. It's amazing what he has done. That was one of my favorite episodes because he was like, "I don't know if you want to talk to me because it's just me and my partner and we don't have a big budget and we don't have any fancy software." I'm like, "No, that is why I want to talk to you because you've done all this incredible stuff on a shoe string with just you." David: I remember the episode. He had Zapier pre-filling his contracts and all that stuff. Kathleen: Yeah. It's amazing. That's really cool that you guys have an integration with Zapier because I've used it at many companies and it's really a game changer. Second question is, the digital marketing changes really quickly and the biggest complaint I get from marketers is they can't keep up with it. How do you personally keep up with it? How do you stay educated? David: Well, recently I have to admit I have become a Reddit addict and I don't know if you've gone on the Reddit bandwagon yet, but it's a never ending rabbit hole to go down for good and bad. I can go on certain channels and just dive in to silly videos for hours on end or I can look at the growth marketers subreddit and get some really great ideas. I find Reddit to be really good. The latest idea, and I almost hesitate to mention this on your show, is a little black hat idea for LinkedIn marketing called LemPod, L. E. M. P. O. D. I don't know if it's worth getting into because somebody...It was posted on Hacker Noon as well in other websites they talked about LemPod, but basically it's a way of preseeding your LinkedIn posts with engagements. You join a group of other digital marketers or people in your same vertical or what have you, and it automatically fills your post with comments from them, and because of that, the more engagements your posts have, the more visibility they have. My recent posts have all received 5,000 to 10,000 views because of LemPod. It's a little bit black hat, but I learned about that through Reddit as well. Also, I'm a huge fan of Flipboard and I'm part of the hashtag inbound marketing content on Flipboard, so I read that. Then finally I listen to you and I've heard all these episodes you've mentioned. Those are the three ways. LemPod is certainly interesting if you're looking for an interesting approach to massively increasing your views, even if it's a little funny at the beginning. Kathleen: Yeah, I'll definitely have to check that out. I am so humbled that you mentioned me in that mix and that you listened to the podcast and get some value out of it. That means a lot to hear that feedback. Thank you. David: No, absolutely. Like I said, during the preinterview for this and then again I write for Inc. magazine and I tried to create items of value on the website because of that gentleman that worked at HubSpot, then G2 Crowd. I really take what you're doing to heart and I think I cannot be the only one. There has to be other listeners out there doing the same. Thank you for doing this and I hope it's paying off for you because it's paying off for us. How to connect with David Kathleen: Oh, well thank you. That is why I love doing it. It makes me happy to hear that it's working for you. Well, I'm sure there are people who are listening to this and they're thinking this Handwrytten things sounds really cool. I want to check it out. How should they do that? What's the best way for them to learn more about Handwrytten and or connect with you online? David: Yeah, you can always connect with me online. I'm David B Wachs on Twitter, I think David B. Wachs On LinkedIn, but just search for David and Handwrytten on LinkedIn. The company is Handwrytten.com. That's Handwrytten with a Y, H. A. N. D. W. R. Y. T. T. E. N. I do recommend the samples requests. You can always say "stop emailing me" after you get your samples, because with the samples you get a whole bunch of material. You get custom cards, you'll get standard cards, you'll get a whole page of different writing styles and a nice little folder to hold it all in. People really do like our samples. You could just get that at Handwrytten.com/business. We are rolling out a new website in the next two months, which I'm super excited about. If you check us out now, please check this out in two months. That's it. We have a small presence on Instagram. I think our tag is Handwryttennotes on there, and we are on Pinterest because we do a lot of consumery style notes, but for the most part, just feel free to connect with me on Twitter. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Awesome. Well, I will put links to all of that in the show notes, so head over there if you're interested in connecting with David or learning more about Handwrytten. There's so much good stuff on the website, so I definitely do recommend people check that out. Of course, if you're listening and you enjoyed this episode or you'll learn something new, I would really appreciate it if you could head to Apple podcasts and leave the podcast a five star review. That would help us get in front of more listeners like you. That's it for this week. Thank you so much, David. This was a ton of fun. David: Thank you very much. It was an honor to be on your show.

Episode Notes [“Second GenerAsian Theme” by Tenny Tsang]Sophia Lo: Hello hello, and welcome toAll: Second GenerAsian! Sophia: I'm Sophia. Hannah Yoon: I'm Hannah. David Deloso: And I'm David. Sophia: And we are back with our first episode of the quarter even though it's Week Seven.David: Yes.Hannah: Hell yeah. So this topic is Asian American Studies. Sophia: Since we've all taken classes on this topic, we wanted to go more into the history of Asian American Studies. But we brought in an expert to tell us more about the field. I talked with Ray San Diego, who's a Visiting Professor in Northwestern’s Asian American Studies Program. Before coming here, he taught Asian American Studies at San Francisco State University, and he's been teaching here since last quarter.Ray San Diego: There's been a lot of changes with Asian American Studies since it started. And I think earlier in the late 60s and 70s, because of immigration policy at the time, it was mainly focused on Chinese Americans, Japanese Americans, maybe to a degree Korean Americans. You didn't have much about Southeast Asians, people of mixed race, Filipinos even. And so I'd say over the past 40 or 50 years, you've sort of seen the incorporation of different ethnic groups and different perspectives. But also I would say what makes Asian American studies a little different than some of the other groups is how heterogeneous we are. So it's not like everyone speaks Asian, right, compared to like speaking maybe Spanish or something like that, or we don't have necessarily a shared history of how we came to the United States. It was much more staggered. On the one hand, it's the experiences, the politics, the cultural production, the stories of struggle and survival of Asians in the diaspora, and people of Asian descent in the United States or North America even more broadly, but at the same time, it's also just as perspective of how we understand power relations in our society and what is equity and what is activism.Hannah: A major thread in Asian American Studies is activism. In fact, student activists are the ones who really pushed for ethnic studies, and they're honestly the only reason why they exist altogether. I personally didn't know anything about the history of ethnic studies until I took my first Asian American studies course, last year, spring quarter. But it all started with a student-led strike at San Francisco State University, and Ray’s going to tell us more about it.Ray: In 1968, it was the largest student strike ever in history. It was about five months. Students were upset about the way that faculty of color were not being hired in the college or the university I should say, they weren't receiving tenure. A lot of students of color weren't getting admitted to schools. And when they were they were only learning from like a white male, upper class heteronormative, Eurocentric perspective. And it was sort of like if this is our money and our education, we should be able to learn about ourselves. And so it started with the Black Student Union. And they were upset over the firing of a professor and wanted to make change. And so they had 10 demands that included things like open admissions for students of color, hiring faculty of color, having a College of Ethnic Studies, and then a lot of the other student groups joined in so PACE, the Pilipino American Collegiate Endeavor, Raza students, the Native American students, pretty much everyone and even a lot of whites joined in and were like, we want ethnic studies, classes, curriculum, content, faculty because it was really a time in the 1960s about self determination about understanding who you were as a person and where you fit in the world. And you sort of saw a lot of decolonizing movements happening around the world as well. So a lot of these places that we're throwing out sort of the imperial ways of thinking and were like, “We have our own ways of producing knowledge that we need to learn and celebrate and spread.”David: Students didn't get all their demands, but they did establish the College of Ethnic Studies and got more students of color admitted. Now we have ethnic studies at universities across the country.Sophia: The strike was really intense. Like Ray said, it lasted five months, and many students faced police brutality and were arrested. There's a lot to unpack here. You can check out the transcript for more links. Hannah: We've seen the history of activism and Asian American Studies. And there's also this idea of serving the people which includes providing and improving access to public services for Ray, his classes are a place to combine theory and put these concepts actually into practice.Ray: So every project that we did, and even in most of the classes I teach in some way is about how could we take what we're learning and make it accessible to people who don't have access to college. That need to serve communities to train people to become you know, journalists, social workers, doctors, lawyers, advocates of all kind, but who understand racism and sexism and homophobia and how all of those dynamics shapes people's lives is a lot of what Asian American studies classes teach, but also allow students to practice. I've had students make sex ed materials for people of color, or for queer and gender non-conforming people that sort of de universalize this idea of what a body is or how we relate to our bodies, other classes, you know, people have gone to protest. They've interviewed people like at city hall or if a state legislator – oh in my class right now, my history class, we are doing a public history class later, or a public history final project in which will have to for example, create videos. There's not a lot of Asian American museums, so what if it was online and other people can see them so that people who don't have access to major cities that have a large Asian American population can still again, learn about these things, even if they're far away. Certainly what this podcast is doing would be part of an activism practice. Sophia: You heard it here. Second GenerAsian is part of activism practices, so keep listening and support us. Hannah: So you've heard from us and you've heard from the professor, but here to talk about their own experiences. We talked to some other students in the program. Isabell Liu: Hi, my name is Isabell Liu. I'm currently a sophomore in Weinberg majoring in Asian American Studies. Back at UCSB, which is the school I transferred from, I was originally a communication studies major and then my – I think it was winter quarter, I needed to fulfill distros. I took an Asian American history class, and my mind changed completely. This is the major I’m taking right now, and this is the major I love and will definitely graduate with. I think the biggest misconception that a lot of people have about Asian American studies is that it's only about Asians. One of the biggest things for me is that Asian American Studies is about essentially developing an oppositional consciousness, right. It's about fighting oppression. It's about all people. It's about revolution and stuff like that. And like, for the first time, like sitting in that first Asian American history class, I was reading about myself, and I know, that sounds kind of selfish to some people, but then you realize, a lot of the history that I at least consumed as someone who went to public school in the States is it's all white male history. For the first time someone like me was on like, the podium telling me about myself, and like, what my people have been through here, you know? And so it was just a really powerful experience. Sophia: Is there a specific moment or thing you learned in that class that really made you change? Or was it sort of the class as a whole? Isabell: Well, there's this book called No-No Boy, I really wish I remember the name of the author (John Okada), but it's basically about Japanese internment. And how Japanese-American citizens were given this choice to either fight in the army, or essentially betray your country, and I'm saying that with quotation marks. And so if you said no to both that you weren't going to revoke your like, loyalty to the Japanese government, which is a dumb question to ask American citizens. So that was no to that first question. And then also no to fighting for the military than you were called a No-No Boy. And you were excluded from both people who were intering because they wanted to appease the American government, and then you were also obviously like, hated on by the American government. And reading that book just made me realize that like, not just for Asian American Studies, but for like minority studies in general we are constantly living in this in between that is not defined for us by anybody. No matter who we try to appease to, for example, we tried to like play into white beliefs and like appease white supremacy. At the end of the day, we are still people of color, we don't appear white, and even if we do pass as white, we're still coming from non-white backgrounds. But at the same time, I'm not from China, I speak Chinese. But ultimately, my nationality identifies as American. Reading that book, it was like reading a book written for me. Hannah: So a lot of students also take these classes because they want to learn a little bit more about their identity.Gene Kim: Hi, I'm Gene Kim, I'm a second year here and I have an Asian Am minor. I definitely think that they are a great place for Asian Americans to come together and talk about their identity. I think that's really important. It's like a place for Asian Americans of different backgrounds to come together and to research together and work on stuff and learn together. David: If you're looking to register for some Asian American studies classes, here's some names to look out for.Isabell: I really, really, really love Techno-Orientalism with Michelle Huang. She's housed both in the Asian American Studies Program and also the English department. I also really love Patricia Nguyen and I took her intro to Asian American Studies class last quarter, which is really bomb. And then I'm also taking her Refugee Aesthetics class right now. And it's just super cool because she's also a performance artist who like went back to Vietnam and performed all this oppositional work under the fist of Vietnamese censorship, which is, you know, super badass. Any classes taught by those two professors. I also really love my U.S. Asian-Black historical relations class although I will say if you have taken an African American History class, or an Asian American history class, a lot of the beginning might be more review than like critical thinking, but it gets good later. Gene: Last quarter, I took Asian Americans and Digital Cultures with Ray San Diego, and he's super chill. I think the professors are a lot more approachable. I can't really say for other classes though because I haven't taken too many other courses outside of Asain Am. All the professors that I've taken from feel like people that I have been on a first name basis with, honestly like people that I could go to their office hours chat, talk about things outside of school.Sophia: So for anyone who's interested in starting some Asian American Studies classes, you can check those out. Hopefully, we've made a pretty good case for why you should take an Asian American studies course. But if you're not convinced, Isabell is going to tell us why this is such an important topic. Isabell: Because complacency is not an option. And I'm not saying that in like the super badass activist way. Ultimately, no matter what major you're in, no matter what you want to do with your life, the situation you're in doesn't have to stay the way it is. And I think that for me, that's what the heart of Asian American Studies is, besides caring about other people, of course. Racism doesn't have to be forever. Discrimination does not have to be forever. This is pretty American, but isn't progress always the goal? Asian American Studies isn't just about Asians. It's just about fighting discrimination, fighting the man, fighting white supremacy and also just demonstrating and continuing this idea that what we have now we're unhappy with can change.Sophia: And that pretty much sums up Asian American Studies. If you're Asian American and want to learn more about the history that you're a part of, these classes or any ethnic studies classes are a great place to start, especially if you want to get a non-Eurocentric perspective of the world.David: And even if you don't identify with an ethnic minority in America, these classes can still be good food for your brain. And speaking of food, here's Hannah with the snack of the day.Hannah: So today’s snack of the day is jjapaguri, otherwise known as ram-don from the Korean movie “Parasite.” The dish is a mix of two instant noodles cooked together to make one dish. Because the name is a mix of two brand name instant noodles in Korea, the English translator decided to name the dish ram-don instead when they were writing the subtitles, to reflect that the dish is a mix of two different noodle dishes. While jjapaguri isn’t a mix of ramen and udon as the English name suggests, this was the closest translation that they could come up with, and I’d say it’s a pretty clever name. Sophia: Thank you so much for listening!David: I'm David. Sophia: I'm SophiaHannah: And I'm Hannah.David: Our theme music was composed by Tenny Tsang. This is NBN Audio.Hannah: Signing out![“Second GenerAsian Theme” by Tenny Tsang]Find out more at https://dimelo-northwestern.pinecast.coThis podcast is powered by Pinecast.

How did David Bain turn his podcast content into a book? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Marketing Now author David Bain talks about how he went from podcasting to livestreaming to publishing a book - and how any marketer can repurpose audio content into electronic and printed books. Highlights from my conversation with David include: David started podcasting all the way back in 2006. His first attempt at repurposing audio content was to publish transcripts and compile them together. When he did that, he realized that transcripts don't work well for creating longer form content that people want to read. If you're thinking of creating audio content, quality audio is key. David recommends purchasing an ATR 2100 mic. You can also add professionally recorded intros and outros. David uses an iPad app called Boss Jock to edit his audio. After David got more serious about his audio content, he began pre-recording video using hangouts. From there, he moved on to live streaming. In 2015, he recorded a year end episode for his podcast that featured 20 to 30 marketers giving tips. The next year, he decided to feature 100 marketers and make a book out of their advice. David has worked with both Kindle Direct Publishing and Ingram Spark to produce ebooks and physical books out of his repurposed content. Resources from this episode: Visit the Marketing Now book microsite  Connect with David on LinkedIn Follow David on Twitter Listen to the podcast to learn how to repurpose podcast content into a book - and what that can do for your marketing results. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm Kathleen Booth, and I'm your host. This week, my guest is David Bain, who is an author with the book, "Marketing Now", coming out any day now, and also a prolific podcaster. Welcome, David. David Bain (Guest): Hey, Kathleen. Great to be on with you. Thanks for asking me. David and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: Yeah, I'm excited to talk with you, because you have quite a bit of experience with podcasting. You're also a marketer by trade, who has held various marketing roles. But, it seems like recently your focus has really been on the medium of podcasting, and now turning what you've done with podcasting into a book. Maybe we could start out and just you could tell your story, your background, what you've been doing, kind of led to you where you are now, and what you're doing now? About David Bain David: Sure. I've come to realize recently that's impossible to do everything in the world of marketing. It used to be possible, I reckon, maybe about five to 10 years ago when you're talking about marketing or maybe digital marketing, to say that you're a marketer or you're a digital marketer, and people would understand that you do a broad variety of different things, but all under the marketing umbrella. Nowadays, it's just so much involved, I think you have to specialize a bit. I guess I'm specializing a bit in podcasting and live streaming, and turning that into a book, as you say. I've been involved, I guess, in marketing for about 15 years or so. It was about 2004 that I really started to realize that I could publish webpages and do things like Google Ad Sense onto the pages, and start to make some decent money out of doing that. That's how I got started in marketing experience. Within a year or so, people were asking me, "How on earth do you actually do that?" So, I was helping a few people to do that, and I ended up building that into a few digital marketing courses, and discovering podcasting about the same time. I actually launched my first podcast way back in 2006. Kathleen: Wow, that's really early days for podcasting. David: It is, it is. It's a year or so after iTunes introduced podcasts. Prior to that, I guess you could do it with RSS feeds, but it was becoming really technical, and there wasn't much of an audience out there. It was really iTunes that brought it into the mainstream. Kathleen: That's amazing. I mean, that's so early on. How did you decide to do a podcast at that point? David: I think I had an iPod, or maybe a device that could listen to it, or at least I was able to download iTunes onto a computer and then discovered podcasts through there, I think, and then thought, "Wow, this could be an incredible medium for marketing, or for actually broadcasting content and distributing content." I had a website at the time, that was a fairly generic business article's website, because at the time when you're involved with SEO, then if you wanted a webpage to be ranked fairly highly, then all you had to do was submit an article to a third party article's directory, and have yourself an author bio at the bottom that had a keyword-rich link back to your website. That could fairly quickly rank it highly. I thought, "Okay, I'll get into this article's game by having an article's website." So, I had a business article's website. The first podcast was actually reading articles in audio form that people had submitted to me. Kathleen: So, you were like Audible before Audible. That is so interesting. David: Well, maybe a very, very small version of that. Kathleen: Yeah, wow. Fascinating. It's changed so much over the years too, really. It's gotten so much more sophisticated in terms of the delivery mechanisms, and the people that are participating, and the formats, et cetera. David: It's absolutely crazy. Back then, you're only talking about 30 years go. We're obviously recording this in 2019, but it's night and day in terms of quality and technology that's available to you, but also people's Internet connections, and devices. There's just so many things that have happened over the last few years or so. From podcasting to publishing a book Kathleen: Yeah, it's amazing. Now, your latest kind of adventure is taking some of what you've done with podcasting and turning it into a book, correct? David: Yes, it is indeed. I think podcasting lends itself quite nicely to either producing transcripts, or making the content available to people in other means. What I tried to do initially was produce some transcripts of the show and publish that. I came to realize fairly quickly, that actually people don't love to read transcripts, books, articles, whenever people write anything. It's an entirely different form compared with the way they actually say something. What I ended up doing was transcribing a series of live streams initially, and then taking the transcripts and completely rewriting them, to be honest with you, to make them into a readable form for our book. It's a whole lot of work to do that. I figured out that actually, I had to have an eight hour live stream to produce roughly 60,000 words of transcripts, and that is an average size of a 250 page book resource, or an average book basically. But in order to actually get the book in really nice readable form, you have to rewrite it. So, it's as much work, if not more work, than actually writing a book from scratch. Kathleen: You know, this is actually a really interesting topic to me, because I have show notes, and my show notes include an executive summary, if you will, but then I include the full transcript. Part of the reason I do that is also just for accessibility, anybody who is hearing impaired and wants to be able to read it. There's also an SEO benefit to having all of that copy and keyword-rich stuff on the page, but I will say that it's interesting when you look at a transcript. I really read mine, and I go through and I don't really heavily edit it, but I just sort of clean it up a little bit, and I add some headings to make it a little bit more digestible. I'll add some links in here and there. One thing I've learned from doing that, is you're absolutely right when you say that people speak differently than they write, and also than they want to read. I have learned that I start pretty much every sentence with "Yeah." David: I know, it's horrible, isn't it? Kathleen: From reading my own transcripts. David: When you edit everything. Kathleen: It's horrifying. I have now this conscious effort I need to make to not say the word, "Yeah" at the beginning of a sentence, and I'll probably do it 20 times on this podcast now that I've said it. I've had a few guests who have, for reasons connected with how they manage their personal brands, who've wanted to go back and edit the transcript and make it sound like it was something that was written as opposed to said. It totally turns it into something different. I've actually had some debates. With one of my guests in particular, I had a real debate about this because I was like, "It's a transcript. It's there for people who can't listen to the podcast, and want an accurate representation of it. So, we can't just completely change it." But I like what you're talking about, because that's really taking it to a different medium, where you don't have to preserve the integrity of the transcript. You can turn it into something that captures the spirit of it, but is much more elegantly written, if you will. David: Definitely. There were so many things you were sharing there, Kathleen, that we could probably have a full conversation about. When you were talking initially about the fact that obviously transcripts themselves have to be turned entirely into something completely different. What I find is actually the guests, as you've to a certain degree alluded to, actually prefer the written form when that form is representing them. I've reached out to every single person that have participated in the production of a live stream, and they've been completely happy. So, I've done it with the approval of other people as well. But you're also talking about SEO, and an SEO benefit as well. I believe that although Google, because it's probably the most important search engine for the majority of us listening, although it is looking for text to crawl, it's increasingly becoming better at being able to look into audio and see what people are saying, and looking through videos and seeing what the video is about as well. It's not perfect yet, but we're getting to a stage where Google is going to be able to transcribe audio without the written text being there. To a certain degree, the SEO value of producing a transcript, I think next to a podcast, is going to diminish over time. Then the question is, why are you doing that? Are you doing it really for people to view? I've probably been a little bit lazy in the past, of not wanting to do podcast transcripts beside every single episode. Have you actually had many people ask you specifically for transcripts? Or are you doing it because you feel it's great as an inclusive thing to do for all of your audience? Kathleen: It's really more of the latter. Philosophically, I like the idea of making the content accessible regardless of someone's ability to consume it in a certain format. I've philosophically chosen to include transcripts for that reason, but I will say that it's interesting, I publish my show notes on IMPACT's website, which has a lot of traffic. There are several podcasts on that website, and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that my show notes get more views than most of the other podcast show notes. So, I do have a theory that from an SEO standpoint, there's something there. But again, it's not just a straight transcript. Like I said, I put some H2s in to chunk out the sections, help kind of make it easier to digest. There's also a section at the beginning that if you don't want to read through a whole transcript. You can just look at that. It's been an evolving experiment, honestly. David: I think that's a lovely tip, actually, putting H2s in there, because Google is looking for ways to break down the tanks on a webpage. If you're demonstrating that actually it's more than a transcript to a certain degree, that is what you're greeting because you're editing it so much, and you're ensuring that it's correct, and you're making it as easy as possible for the reader to consume it. I guess those simple things like H2s and perhaps some other small elements that you can bring in like list elements, maybe, if someone's referring to a list as well, would make it much more likely for search engines to treat that text positively. Kathleen: Yeah, it's a labor of love. Quite honestly, I'm not sure if you just made an ROI calculation, if I could prove that there was the ROI and the amount of time I spend. But it's interesting. It's just sort of the direction I've been going lately. Getting started with audio content Kathleen: I feel like we could have a whole conversation about that. But back to yours. Let's actually rewind for a minute. Can you talk a little bit about the podcasting or the live streaming that you were doing, that led to this notion to create a book? David: Sure. Sorry, I can't help asking questions. It's the podcast career in me. Kathleen: No, it's great. I love it. David: I love having a conversation. Kathleen: This is a good conversation. David: I believe that when I see other people live streaming, or producing lots of video content that they get some of the basics wrong, such as decent quality audio. I'm a strong believer that people should start off with a basic quality audio podcast to begin with, and that if they do that, if they have a piece of equipment like... Sorry, I'm talking a microphone that I'm using at the moment actually, but this ATR 2100, I wanted to refer to. The microphone that I'm using is an Electro Voice RE20, which is a more professional microphone. The microphone that I was wanting to refer to was the ATR 2100. The ATR 2100 is a very basic dynamic microphone that you connect to a computer using a USB. It's got a more professional connection cord, an XLR as well, but you don't need to worry about that. If you have a basic microphone like that connected to your computer, you connect with someone using Skype, and you record using a free piece of software that you can connect to Skype. That's all you need to begin with. Then you record 20 or so episodes to begin with, and you get comfortable with producing your audio podcast, and then you move on to video after that. I would encourage anyone that is looking to do live streaming, produce video, is to really think about your audio quality to begin with because certainly when it comes to YouTube, many people consume YouTube videos by walking around the house and occasionally referring to the screen. They're actually out for the decent audio quality content, and they're more likely to skip your video if you're difficult to hear, or you're just not good enough quality. Kathleen: Yeah, I think that's so true. I mean, I have a Blue Yeti microphone, which is, I would say, kind of comparable to the ATR, around the same price range, and easy to connect. You don't need to be any kind of an expert to use it, and don't have to spend a lot of money. It makes a huge difference. To that, I would add, having a really good Internet connection because I definitely had a good solid few months when I moved offices, where my Internet was not reliable. It was some of the most painful times. I had people messaging me who were listeners going, "Have you checked your Internet? It's cutting out a lot." It makes for a terrible experience. You're absolutely right. David: I love your guest booking experience as well, because you are very definitive with guests, with regards to what's good and what's not so good as well. I've done the same thing with many shows as well. Unless you're very specific with people, then people are going to get it wrong, or their audio quality isn't going to be as good as it could actually be, and you're not going to be delivering the highest quality of audio product to your consumers. Some people are switch off because of it, so you have to be like that. Kathleen: Yeah, no one wants you in their ear for 45 minutes with terrible static, or as one of my guests once did, shuffling papers right next to the microphone. David: Yes, or beards, yes. Kathleen: It's just a horrible sound. David: I don't know if you've experienced many beards on microphones. They are not so good either. Kathleen: Yeah, yeah it makes a big difference. So, what type of podcasting were you doing that led to the live streaming? From podcasting to live streaming David: Sure. I got more serious about podcasting about 2014. I think I played with a little bit before then, but as I alluded to, I did about 20 or so shows to begin with solely in audio format. I moved onto what I considered the next stage to getting a decent microphone, doing things like incorporating my intros, my outros, and different bumper noises. I've got this app on my iPad called Boss Jock that I connect to a mixer, and then I can bring that audio into it as well. That makes the show easier to edit in that you don't have to do everything towards the end as well. After that, I started recording on pre-recorded video. I started Hangouts at the time as unlisted video. Then that made me feel more comfortable, because I knew that if everything went wrong I didn't have to release the video at all. It made me feel less stressed to begin with, when I was getting involved with video. The next stage after that, as I see it, is live streaming and actually live streaming to social media, and looking at comments as you're live streaming as well, and being able to bring those comments into the conversation. There's so many different skills involved, and different aspect of that when you're starting video to begin with. You want to be comfortable looking into the camera, at least for the intro and the outro sections of your show. You want to be incorporating your musical elements, if you bring that into the show as well, and of course the readers' comments as well. You just can't do that to begin with. I see so many people, as I mentioned earlier, just starting live streaming and not being able to do that because they haven't gone through those steps. Kathleen: You were doing some podcasting, if I'm correct, for SEMrush as well as for MobileMonkey. You've had a lot of experience, both with your own podcasts, working with some other companies. David: Yeah. Repurposing podcast content into a book Kathleen: What gave you the idea to think about venturing into the world of books? David: Of books. Well, I've done, as you say, a lot of different podcasts. I've probably interviewed about 500 different marketers, so I've got an incredible database of contacts out there, people that I can reach out to. About 2015 or so, I decided to produce an end-of-year show, so perhaps I'd interviewed about 100 people by then. I thought, "Okay, it's be a lovely pre-Christmas-type show to get 20 or 30 marketers on and all give their thoughts of the year, what's their number one tip from what's happened during the year." Yeah, I had about 20 or 30 people on. It was about a two hour live stream, and it went really nicely. The following year, I decided to double it up and potentially make a book out of it. The following year, I did a four hour live stream and had just over a hundred marketers join me live. I gave them all three minutes each to share their number one actionable tip. I took the content and made my first book out of it. It did fairly well. It sold a few thousand copies. It just seemed to be the next logical step in terms of publishing content. I think you have to go where the opportunity is, but you have to really look to see what your competitors are doing out there, and also you have to work harder than other people who are out there. 10 years ago, I used to be able to publish blog posts and quite easily get those blog posts ranked. Then it moved on, and you had to publish incredible blog posts that 2000-5000 words long. Now, unless you've got a fairly authoritative domain name, it's even quite hard to get those sorts of posts ranked. "So, where are the other publishing opportunities?" I thought. Well, perhaps it's not even online at all. Loads of people still read books. It doesn't have to be Kindle book. It doesn't have to be any book in any form. It could be a physical copy book, and people still read physical books: paperback books, hard copy books. "First of all," I thought, "Well, it's very hard to publish a book. It's a lot more effort to publish a book. So, if I publish a book then it's going to position me above other people producing content around the same kind of topic." Then I thought, "Well, there are thousands and thousands of people that want to read this copy in book form as well." So, I guess those are some of the reasons I chose to publish a book. Kathleen: I have to laugh, because hazards of podcasting, I'm in my quiet home office and my dogs start to go crazy. That's the home alarm system, as I like to call it. David: Oh, that's great. I heard that in the background, Kathleen. I was wondering if you were able to edit it out at all. I thought, "Okay-" Kathleen: No, I always tell my guests when I listen to podcasts, I like it to be really organic and not overly scripted. So I say, "You know what, we're going to roll with it." So, I'm leaving this segment in so everybody can hear my two Labrador Retrievers who like to play- literally, if anybody walks by the front of my house they go crazy. David: And I was trying to talk over it, thinking- Kathleen: You're so good. David: Maybe you were going to be able to edit that out, and it was going to be easier for you to- Kathleen: No, we'll leave it in, because- David: Okay. Kathleen: It just gives more color to what's really happening behind the scenes. David: Great stuff. How David published his book Kathleen: You decided to publish a book. Can you talk a little bit about how you went about doing that, because I've had a couple of people on who've talked about writing and publishing books, and they've all taken different approaches. This is something I'm very interested in. I've spoken to so many marketers who've talked about either wanting to write a book, or wanting to use the content creators within their company to create a book as part of their marketing strategy. David: Yeah. Kathleen: There's the route of working with a publisher. There's self-publishing. There's so many options now. Can you talk about how you specifically did that? David: Sure. I haven't gone down the working with a publisher route, mainly because I think there's more profit in it being a self-publisher. I initially, several years ago, published some books just for Kindle. If you publish books for Kindle, then as long as you're charging between $2.99 and $9.99 in US dollars, then you can get 70% commission as a result of doing that. So, that's quite appealing. Then after that, when I published my first physical book, which was called "Digital Marketing" in 2017, that book was also published using a service called CreateSpace at the time. That's been merged into KDP, which is called Kindle Direct Publishing, but you can publish paperback books through that service. If I'm publishing a book for $14.99, and through that service for a book that is 268 pages long, it's costing me about $4.10 per book to get that book produced- Kathleen: Hard copy. David: No, that's our paperback copy. That's a paperback. Kathleen: Oh, okay. Well, yeah, but I mean printed. Printed copy. David: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, sorry. I'm just differentiating because hard copies- Kathleen: Hard cover and paperback, right, right, right. David: Exactly. They cost quite differently. But paperback, they cost in general just over $4.00 if you're producing a book which is about the same size as mine, which is 268 pages of paper. Kathleen: Am I correct that, because I've talked to somebody else who has used Kindle Direct Publishing, am I correct that there is no minimum quantity for orders? You can order like one at a time? David: Yes. Yeah, yeah exactly. You can order them yourself personally. You can get your pre-published copies, which have a bit of a nasty extra bit on the front to say, "Do not resell." Then after it's published, then you can get the proper versions, which are the single copies. However, obviously you're going to be charged postage for doing that. So, sometimes you're better off getting 10 copies, or something like that. You can also do the same through another service called IngramSpark. IngramSpark also will produce that hard cover version of your book for you. If you're producing a hard cover version, then it's normally about five or six dollars to produce, because you've got that hard cover on top of it, and you've got your sleeve on top of it as well. So, you generally have to price it a bit higher. Hard cover versions, they're generally about $25.00. The paperback version is generally about $15.00. There's not much more profit in the hard cover version. I think the only benefits really for the hard cover version, is the perceived value of it. Because again, it looks like a higher quality product, so if you have your own events, and you're speaking at events, and you want to take hard cover copies of your book with you and sign them, then the hard covers are very nice in terms of perceived authority. Kathleen: Yeah, it's really fascinating to me, because the technology is such now that anyone can really do this. There's no issue with affordability. There's no issue with you need to have the connections in the publisher world. Anyone can write a book and publish it, and create a really very professional quality-looking printed version, as well as Kindle version, which presents an amazing opportunity from a marketing standpoint that so few people have taken advantage of. David: Well, it's hard, hard work to do and it takes a lot of time to do. So, I can understand where people don't want to do it. But I think it's about planning your content marketing out for the entire year, and if you're doing a podcast, if you're doing a series of blog posts, if you really think about it then you can design 12 chapters in a book out of the content that you produce. To a certain degree, you can write your book over your year out of your content that you're already producing. So, it needn't take a whole lot more effort. Which came first, the podcast or the book? Kathleen: Is that the way that you went about doing it this time? Did you really conceive of this in advance, and then create audio content kind of knowing that your end game was to create the book? Or did you have this audio content and then think, "Wait, this would be great fodder for a book." David: It's the way that I probably will do it in the future at some point. What I did this time was a few months ago, I hosted a massive live stream which was eight hours long. I had 134 marketers on that. Then I took the transcript of that and then completely rewrote it. Then I determined the categories of each piece of advice that all the marketers share. So, it was just the one question that I asked everyone. Hello doggy. I've got a two old son, and he likes to say, "Hello doggy." Anyway, look I think what I did this time was a whole lot of work, probably too much work, but it was a learning process as well. I categorized all the content after receiving it, because I was just about to say I asked all the marketers the same question, "What's your number one actionable marketing tip right now?" They all shared that number one tip. I thought the tips that were shared fitted very neatly into three key sections of the book, and then also into 12 categories from there as well. The 12 categories, of course, turned into 12 chapters. From the research, I've done 12 chapters. It's quite as nice number to have within a book. That's a nice way to break it down, if you're planning a book as well. If you want to write a whole book as a one-off, 60,000 words, that sounds quite a lot. But if you break it down into 5000 words per chapter, even 4000 words per chapter, plus an introduction and conclusion, then that's not too much to do. The difference between blogging and writing a book Kathleen: Now a lot of the marketers that listen to this podcast are prolific content creators. They are very accustomed to blogging, to writing articles. Many of them are also podcasters of their own right. I'm interested to know from your perspective, what do they need to know about creating content that is intended for a book as opposed to writing articles or blogs, which is a little bit more episodic, is there something different that you need to do as you approach that project? David: I think the key thing is, is to have that thread. So, to have that thread that binds the different chapters together. So, you can't just write 12 separate large pieces of content without that intended thread together, and the intended overarching topic of your book. I think you have to start with the end in mind. A good way to do that, is actually to research Amazon, to have a look at categories of books and to see what exists already, and where the opportunities are. Because one outcome that some authors wish to achieve is to get a bestseller. You can get bestsellers in different categories of Amazon as well. It's quite nice to take a screenshot of your book being number one in a category of Amazon. If you look into what topic of marketing, or another area of your business, and you find a category that's either under-serviced or perhaps doesn't actually have the type of book that you believe that you can offer, then that's a good place to start. Then you've got your topic of your book. Then it's a case of brainstorming maybe three sections, then four different chapters within those sections of your book, and then starting writing from there. Then you've got your thread, which binds everything together. Marketing your book Kathleen: So you write the copy, you probably create cover artwork, you pull all this into the Kindle Direct Publishing system so that you're able to publish the book through it. You just talked about people wanting to have Amazon bestsellers. What does someone need to know as far as the work that has to happen to market the book, especially before it's even published, because the little amount of research I've done into this, it's very clear to me that a lot needs to be done before the book even hits the virtual shelves, to lay the groundwork for a successful book launch. I'd love to hear from your standpoint what you're doing for that. David: From a successful marketing perspective on Amazon, one of the key things is reviews. It makes it more likely for people who stumble upon your book to decide to make that purchase if there are positive reviews. So I think that's a bit of a given. It's much, much better to have something in the region of 10 reviews in the marketplace that you want to target. I'm targeting with USA and the UK, and you want to have a reasonable number of views in those marketplaces. You've also got to be thinking about [crosstalk 00:31:22] together. You've got your hard cover, your paperback, and also your Kindle edition, and perhaps even an audiobook version as well. They can be all tied together. You can ask Amazon to tie those things together. One of the important things to try and get on a bestseller list within Amazon is to get a decent number of sales within a short time period. I would be guessing to a certain degree, but I'm pretty sure that if you can get maybe even just 100 sales of your book within 24 hours in a category of Amazon that's not particularly competitive, then you're quite likely to get fairly high within that category. So, a number of reviews. If you publish your book a few days before you intend to say that you're going to publish it, you reach out to your friends and your colleagues, and you ask them to buy it, and then you ask them to submit a review as well. Then on publishing day, you do some kind of live event. I'm doing a massive live stream on launch day. One of the intentions behind that is to get as many people as possible to buy it as soon as possible, and to get that algorithm of Amazon to notice that there's a lot of sales of that particular product happening. That's going to move it up the rankings. Kathleen: So I did see that. I went to your MarketingNowBook.com website, which if you're listening, you should check it out. I saw that you have the book launch party set for December 10th. I'm definitely going to sign up to listen to that. I'm curious to see how that comes off. It's a great idea. It's interesting what you said about having a slightly different date when the book goes up onto Amazon versus the official launch date. David: Yeah, well you can do that with one person. With IngramSpark, it's possible. There are lots of strange technicalities. With IngramSpark, it's possible to have your book available to purchase prior to launch date. With Amazon paperback, with a KDP paperback, it's not possible to do that. But with Kindle, it is possible to do that, to have pre-orders, is the technical term. You could have your book available for pre-order. I believe though any sales made within that pre-order period doesn't count towards the ranking after the book's been ranked. That's not going to help a lot with regards to your ranking afterwards, so you do want to make a lot of sales, if possible, on rank day. What I'm going to do is make my hard cover version and my Kindle version available on December 10th when it launches. I'm in the process of doing a quiet launch for the paperback version. That's going to be publicly available hopefully within the next few days. We're recording this on the second of December, so it'll be available a few days just before the 10th of December if everything goes according to plan. Then I'm going to get a few friends and colleagues to buy it, and to publish reviews on that version. I'm going to have that linked together with the hard cover version and the Kindle version, which is going to be then published on the 10th of December. Kathleen: That's great. Well, I can't wait to check out the book when it comes out. Again, if you're listening, you definitely need to go to MarketingNowBook.com so that you can sign up to attend the live stream. This has been so interesting, David, just hearing this whole process laid out. While I think you've made it clear that obviously writing a book is no easy undertaking, and I think it's important to understand, but I also feel like you've made it very accessible in terms of understanding the process of bringing a book to market. So, I appreciate that. David: Yeah, hopefully a couple of people give it a go. It's not easy, but if you plan it out beforehand, then you can save yourself a bit of heartache, perhaps, that I've gone through. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah, that's great. Now I have two question I always ask my guests, and I'm curious to hear what you're going to say. We talk a lot about inbound marketing on this podcast. Is there a particular company or individual that you think is really killing it right now with inbound marketing? David: The company that springs to mind is a company called Conversion Rate Experts. They've been doing this for a while. What they do is they put together blog posts that are on a fairly infrequent basis. They probably publish maybe just once every two months or so, but they are incredible case studies that really help you with conversion rate optimization. Although these blog posts are thousands of words long, they've got videos in there, they've got wonderful images in there as well. You feel that you're getting a lot of value from that. Towards the bottom of the page, they say what you should be doing now. Then they've got a list of call to actions at the bottom that introduces you to their service. But it never feels like they're asking for the order beforehand. They're providing so much value beforehand, and they link up lovely emails with this as well, and entice people to read the articles. I think that a lot of marketers haven't necessarily got the right idea of what a blog is. A lot of blog publishers don't have this sense. Obviously, blogs originated from web blogs, which were regular updates of people's activities. To me, a blog is just a publishing opportunity. It's a CMS now, with some marketing opportunities baked into it. It's just a publishing opportunity. If it's a publishing opportunity, you can publish any type of content in there, and I think this company, Conversion Rate Experts, demonstrate that a blog can be used for different reasons. Kathleen: I love that point that you just made about a blog being a publishing opportunity. The last job that I was in, I was really charged with building out essentially a brand publishing business for the company, which is really just like a blog on steroids, if you will. It's articles, it's podcasts, it's all the different type of content that you think of when you think of a publisher. There's no reason that any company can't do that. It's certainly a more aggressive approach to content marketing, but it can be a very powerful one, all of which lives on a blogging platform. Kathleen: So, you're absolutely right when you characterize it that way. David: Great. Kathleen: Love that. Now, second question, the world of digital marketing is changing at what can seem like a lightening-fast pace. How do you personally stay educated and up-to-date? David: Funny enough actually, since I've started being really serious about podcasting in the last five years or so, I've probably read less to keep myself up-to-date with things. I've interviewed about 500 or so different top marketers out there, and that's been a wonderful way to keep up-to-date with things. I would say to people if you haven't started a podcast, simply do it to have great conversations with powerful authorities within your niche. I would have done all these podcast episodes with a view to just having the incredible conversations, and making incredible contacts that I've made. Obviously, not all my guests would have wanted to do that. They would have wanted to have the content distributed as well. But for me personally, that's been a great source of knowledge. I listen to a couple of podcasts as well. I listen to a podcast called Podcasters Roundtable, which is a good source of podcasting news, what's happening in Apple Podcasts, and podcasting in general. I listen to Mixergy, which is more of a digital business/entrepreneurship-type show, but that's a great source of information for me with regards to what's happening right now in digital businesses. Then I could tie different marketing activities up to that. The final source that I'll give you, if I'm hosting shows that relate to SEO and pay per click, then Search Engine Land is probably one of the key blogs that I go to, to keep abreast of the latest news there. Kathleen: Yeah, that's a great one. You are preaching to the choir when you talk about the power of podcasting. I always say if people listen to this, they've probably heard me say it several times, that I would keep doing the podcast even if no one listens, which as you pointed out, I'm sure my guests would not want that. It's an incredible learning experience, and I get to talk to people I would never otherwise meet, and to learn from them. That's just such an amazing gift, so I could not agree more with what you said about that. David: Absolutely. How to connect with David Kathleen: Well, if you are listening and you are interested in connecting with David or learning more, David, what's the best way for people to get in touch with you? David: I've got a brand new domain name that I just acquired a couple of months ago or so. Obviously, I'm using MarketingNowBook.com as the landing page for the book, but I'm really happy that I've finally got the DavidBain.com domain name. It took me a long time to get that. There were many people that squatted on it for a while, but I eventually got it. I had to go down to auction to get it. I'm thankful to have David Bain on LinkedIn, David Bain on Twitter, and DavidBain.com as well. I guess any of those areas are good. You know what to do next... Kathleen: That's great. All right, well if you're listening and you liked what you heard, you learned something new, please head to Apple Podcasts and leave a five star review for the podcast. That's how new people discover us. If you know somebody else whose doing kick ass inbound marketing work, Tweet me @WorkMommyWork, because I would love to have them be my next interview. Kathleen: Thanks so much, David. This was a lot of fun. David: Great to be on with you, Kathleen. Thanks again. Kathleen: Yeah, and you win the award, by the way, for muscling through more dog barks than any other guest. So, kudos to you. David: Sounds good.

Episode Notes Sophia and David talk about microwave meals, intermittent fasting and the best stir fry order at Plex East. Content warning: mentions of calorie counting. We recommend talking with a doctor before making any major changes to your diet. Sophia: Hello, hello, and welcome to Solved by Science, the show where we answer all the questions that keep you up at night. I'm your host, Sophia, and today I have my friend David with me. David: Hi, I'm David. I am a sophomore studying journalism at Northwestern. I'm an assistant managing editor for North by Northwestern with Sophia, and I'm very excited to have some questions answered. We also co-host another podcast together. It's called Second GenerAsian. It's really cool. You should check it out. Sophia: It's really great. Listen to us, and also our friend HJY. Anyway, so I'm here to answer one of David's questions. David: Freshman year, I would eat a lot of microwave meals because you know, I was lazy. I didn't really want to leave the dorm. One thing I noticed is microwave meals and other very cheap food items never really filled me up. I would eat a lot, and it would just feel like my stomach was still empty. I don't know much about how food or science or anything works, but to me, it's like if I'm eating calories, shouldn’t I have the same amount of energy from those calories? I mean, obviously, like you're not getting nutrients, which I might have just answered my own question there. But yeah, I was wondering why don't microwave meals fill me up? Sophia: Well, we can talk about that more. You did touch a little bit on it. So we can talk about some empty calories and sugars versus complex carbs, that kind of thing. But first, I'm going to talk a little bit about hunger. So, when you feel hungry, that's usually when your blood sugar and insulin levels are dropping. And then that releases ghrelin, which signals hunger. You feel full when you eat, and then your fat cells release leptin to let your body know that you're feeling full. And a lot of this communication happens with the hypothalamus, which is a structure in your brain, and it plays a big role in releasing hormones. Back to your question, why don't microwave meals – or ramen, I guess – fill you up? I'm more of a ramen fan than the microwave meal. David: Yeah, I mean, they're all in the same wider category to me. Sophia: They're all the same college student is too lazy David: Yeah, exactly. Sophia: Only has a microwave in their sad CRC dorm room. David: Right. Sophia: Let's start by talking about empty calories. You mentioned that you weren't getting any nutrients. So a lot of these foods, like microwave meals, don't have too much nutritional value, at least the ones I'm eating. I was eating a lot of ramen and mac and cheese last year. What were you eating? David: Literally the same thing. Sophia: Yeah, some things like, I don't know, Trader Joe’s, might have a little bit more. David: Doubtful, honestly. Sophia: But Kraft Mac and Cheese, not it. So these don't have any nutritional value or vitamins, and they're usually full of fat and sugar. So none of that is really great for you. And there's also a difference between sugar and simple carbs versus complex carbs. So simple sugars don't take a lot of time to digest. So things like ramen, mac and cheese. I know you were eating other microwave meals from H Mart. David: Yeah, I would eat a lot of the Korean like porridge type meals like congee. It was all very similar to me, like in terms of how I would feel afterwards. It's just like not great. Sophia: So they don't take a ton of time to digest. So what happens is your glucose levels rise super fast, and then when you crash, it makes you feel irritable. So you should eat other things that keep you full for longer because it slows down the absorption of glucose into your bloodstream. So things that keep you full longer: fiber, I'm sure you've heard that before. David: Yes. Sophia: And then things like ramen or mac and cheese have a ton of sodium in them. And your body retains more water when you're eating a lot of salty things, and you feel bloated. So that might also be part of why you feel really gross afterwards. David: Right. Yeah, I mean, after I would eat like a microwave meal, or you know, some kind of cheap, quick meal that I don't have to leave the dorm for, I felt so bad that it's like I might as well have just left the dorm and gone to a dining hall and gotten real food. Sophia: See when I eat microwave meals or ramen, what I usually do is like if I do it for dinner, I'll bring back veggies from the salad bar, so I feel less bad about it. David: Yeah, to me, that defeats the purpose. You know, it's if I'm already there. If I'm going to bring home like veggies, or ingredients to supplement a microwave meal, I might as well just bring home leftover food and eat that. Sophia: That's true, but sometimes you just want some ramen. David: It's like a snack to me. It's not like food food. Sophia: Anyway, something else I'm interested in with you and food is intermittent fasting. David: So over the summer, I started intermittent fasting because I was on a pretty busy schedule, and I didn't have time to eat breakfast. And so basically, I would not eat before noon. And so once I got back from a study abroad program, I still kept it up because I found myself not getting hungry before 12 as long as I kept up the fast. If I kept it up for a couple of weeks, eventually I’d get to a point where I literally just don't get hungry at a certain point. I only eat between 12 and 8pm. The only time I find myself getting getting hungry is if I like break the fast or I kind of have a cheat day, then I'll get more hungry the next day. My logic behind it is that if I'm not hungry, or like my body doesn't tell me that I need food, what's the point of eating? Sophia: Are you doing it to like lose weight or be healthier or... David: Yeah Sophia: Was it just a you realized you didn't get hungry type of thing? David: A lot of it was weight loss. I've just heard it's good for you. I'm eating like plenty of food. It's not like I'm starving myself. I haven't gotten out of shape, really, at least not the way that I did last year, freshman year when I would just gorge myself all the time. I'm being a lot more reasonable about the food that I eat. Because I think intermittent fasting and only eating two meals a day kind of gives me a lot more flexibility within those meals. I can eat whatever I want. Sophia: So I know at the beginning of the year, you were also calorie counting a little bit. Did you notice that you were eating less calories because you're eating two meals or are you eating more during those meals? David: I think it's just like it's easier for me to hit my target, which I mean, I still kind of do, I just I'm not as diligent about tracking it. I found that the meals that I would be eating anyway are just the right size to get me to my calorie target. If I eat them twice a day, obviously like the thing that I've been eating a lot of lately is Plex East stir fry, which is about 900 calories and if my targets 1800 calories that I just need that twice a day and I'm right on target. That's very convenient portion size wise. Sophia: Do you usually go to Plex twice a day? Because I’m always at Allison. I do want to get stir fry sometime. David: You should. Sophia: So let's do that. David: I got literally get Plex stir fry twice a day. Sophia: What's your recommendation for Plex stir fry? David: They just added sweet chili sauce, and it slaps. It's so good. My go-to at the start of the quarter was chicken and brown rice. Lately, I've been getting like pork and noodles. You gotta like be a bit creative with the sauces, because they have the sweet chili sauce. But if you had a little bit of the soy sauce or like the Szechuan sauce, it's pretty good. You can have some versatility. You know, I put a lot of scallions, a lot of onions, a little bit of bell peppers. Gotta heap the garlic on because I'm Filipino. We love garlic. With that, it's just because it's pre-portioned, I don't get out of control with getting too much food because I feel like I have bad impulse control. Sophia: I should probably start doing that because I also have bad impulse control. So you said that part of the reason you were intermittent fasting was to lose weight. So that's a big reason why people do that. And the reason why I asked about your calorie counting is that one thing that it does is that just because you're restricting your eating hours, you are cutting calories by eating less of the time. Or at least some people do that. Some people might just end up eating the same amount in a smaller period of time. What you're doing is called a restricted eating window. This is where you have a limited time where you can eat, you might eat just one meal a day or two or three times. You're doing eight hours. I think that's pretty common for intermittent fasting. David: It’s a pretty standard starting point. Sometimes I won't eat exactly at 12, like I’ll eat at one or two, and I won't eat at 8, I'll eat at 6 or 7. So it sometimes does get restricted tighter than that. Sophia: And the other type of intermittent fasting is called alternate day fasting. So some days you would eat more and some days you would eat less. So this is also called calorie cycling. And you can fast every other day, two days a week, stuff like that. Kind of whatever works for you. I feel like intermittent fasting is pretty flexible and depends on the person. So another reason why this might promote weight loss is because it reduces your insulin levels and your fat cells are also burning more, and I think that's also the premise of the keto diet, but I don't really know much about the keto diet. David: Keto is just like very high fat, very, very low carb, medium protein. It's good in theory, it's just I couldn't do that, because I think with the options available at dining halls, it's not super conducive to maintain keto on a dining plan. I feel like calorie counting is probably your best bet; you can eat a lot of different things within your window of calories. It's just as long as you don't overeat. Sophia: Intermittent fasting might also increase the hormone norepinephrine, which boosts your metabolism. So more calories burn, and I need to start burning calories because I don't exercise here. David: I tried to do that. But you know, we all get lazy as time goes on. Sophia: So don't intermittent fast if you have conditions like diabetes, if you're pregnant, if you have an eating disorder. I feel like I say this every episode: I'm not a doctor. Don't ask me for medical advice. If you're trying a new diet, maybe talk to a medical professional. So there you have it. Some stuff about food, my favorite topic in the world and intermittent fasting. Do it safely. Talk to a doctor. So that wraps it up for today. If you want more information, check out the transcript down below for sources and other fun links and subscribe to this podcast for more Weird Science things, our intro and our true music is Eve by Dee Yan-Key which we use under Creative Commons Attribution license. I'm Sophia. David: I'm David. Sophia: Thanks so much for listening. This is NBN audio. David: I want to emphasize I'm not starving myself. You should’ve seen me at all-you-can-eat KBBQ last Saturday. Holy shit. I was going at it. Find out more at https://solved-by-science.pinecast.co This podcast is powered by Pinecast.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Shirley: Hi, David. How are you?David: I'm fine, thank you, Shirley.Shirley: So, environmental issues ... we were talking about them earlier throughout the world, and you're from Kenya.David: Yes, I'm from Kenya.Shirley: So, what's happening over there?David: One of the environmental issues we are having is deforestation, which is really affecting both the wild animals and people living around the forest and, you know, the environment in general.Shirley: So, what's actually happening to the people that ... for example the people who actually live around the forest area?David: Cause you know, when you tend to interfere and come in between the wild animal's habitat and things like that, you somehow create like an imbalance in between the people and the animals and sometimes it's not a really nice thing cause animals tend to come close to where people live instead of living in their own habitat, which is a really bad thing.Shirley: So, are they like attacking people .... or?David: They really don't attack but it's not a really nice picture or scene to know that you're vulnerable at any time.Shirley: What about livestock of the people that are close to forest areas?David: You know, that's one of the things that are in danger cause, you know, if wild animals come to where people live, and they have livestock, probably they'll want to be eaten.Shirley: So, what's actually causing the deforestation?David: People are trying to burn charcoal, so that they can get, they're trying to burn the trees so that they can get charcoal and sell cause as you know everyone is not living to the living standard that they're supposed to be living, and they're trying in every way to earn an extra dime to support their families, so they turn to deforestation and the cutting down of trees, and this has been one of the major causes of deforestation cause when you're trying to get charcoal and sell, you have to cut a tree and that results to deforestation and other causes that come along with deforestation and like soil erosion: things like that.Shirley: So what's being done to try and remedy this, or to try and counterbalance the effect?David: The activist groups that are coming together like ... you all know the Nobel Prize winner Wangari Maathai.Shirley: Yes.David: She has her own green belt movement in Kenya. She's been for so long trying to discourage people and educate people in what deforestation does to the country and how it affects people and the environment in general.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Shirley: Hi, David. How are you?David: I'm fine, thank you, Shirley.Shirley: So, environmental issues ... we were talking about them earlier throughout the world, and you're from Kenya.David: Yes, I'm from Kenya.Shirley: So, what's happening over there?David: One of the environmental issues we are having is deforestation, which is really affecting both the wild animals and people living around the forest and, you know, the environment in general.Shirley: So, what's actually happening to the people that ... for example the people who actually live around the forest area?David: Cause you know, when you tend to interfere and come in between the wild animal's habitat and things like that, you somehow create like an imbalance in between the people and the animals and sometimes it's not a really nice thing cause animals tend to come close to where people live instead of living in their own habitat, which is a really bad thing.Shirley: So, are they like attacking people .... or?David: They really don't attack but it's not a really nice picture or scene to know that you're vulnerable at any time.Shirley: What about livestock of the people that are close to forest areas?David: You know, that's one of the things that are in danger cause, you know, if wild animals come to where people live, and they have livestock, probably they'll want to be eaten.Shirley: So, what's actually causing the deforestation?David: People are trying to burn charcoal, so that they can get, they're trying to burn the trees so that they can get charcoal and sell cause as you know everyone is not living to the living standard that they're supposed to be living, and they're trying in every way to earn an extra dime to support their families, so they turn to deforestation and the cutting down of trees, and this has been one of the major causes of deforestation cause when you're trying to get charcoal and sell, you have to cut a tree and that results to deforestation and other causes that come along with deforestation and like soil erosion: things like that.Shirley: So what's being done to try and remedy this, or to try and counterbalance the effect?David: The activist groups that are coming together like ... you all know the Nobel Prize winner Wangari Maathai.Shirley: Yes.David: She has her own green belt movement in Kenya. She's been for so long trying to discourage people and educate people in what deforestation does to the country and how it affects people and the environment in general.

Greetings, this is Kelly Coughlin, CPA, and CEO of EveryDay CPA providing tax accounting and revenue solutions to individuals and businesses throughout the U.S. In today’s podcast, I am going to interview a former grizzly bear. Yep! In a former life, for 30 years, he was a grizzly bear who took the shape of an IRS Officer, seizing assets and pursuing DOJ tax lien foreclosures. David Ronquillo began his career as a revenue officer in 1980 in Seattle. He has held positions as Field Collection Group Manager and Senior Collection Policy Analyst. Currently, he is helping tax professionals increase their knowledge and skills representing clients who are dealing with the IRS Collection operations. David, I want to welcome you to the EveryDay CPA Podcast. Kelly: I have a couple more questions on kind of the behind the scenes dynamics of the collection area, one is, what are some of the motivators or behind the scenes incentives that influence an agent that works on these cases, that work in favor of the taxpayer, and certainly which ones don’t work in favor of the taxpayer? I am thinking, you know, there is a pressure to close the case to get it off the table, right? We have heard all that, is that a fair statement, that there is the pressure to gets things closed, right? David: Right. Kelly: Does that pressure help the taxpayer or hurt the taxpayer or is a neutral? David: It can depend, and I can see it go both ways, for example, if it’s an egregious case, you know, the way that they ran the tax up, you know, a trust fund recovery penalty is a classic example. IRS may spend more time on it digging for assets or digging for a way to collect what is owed, simply because of the way the tax was generated or how cooperative - did they do what the revenue officer asks them to do or are they going out to try to refinance their house? So, in those instances, the case may be directly classified as a case that’s over-age. It used to be nine months. If the case was older than nine months in the inventory it was over age so then management starts looking at it a lot closer trying to figure out, what do we need to do to close this case? But if it’s a good enough case where it should not be closed, the IRS is not going to close it. On the other hand, if it’s a simple payment agreement, taxpayers can come in, they can make monthly payments, case is getting old, hey, let’s get the payment agreement written up and let’s get it closed. Let’s move on to something else. So, the pressure on closing the case can work both ways, it just depends on what your circumstances are. In dealing with the revenue officer, I always take the choice, because I hear these advertisements on the radio, oh, yeah, we do battle with the IRS, we fight the IRS, this and that. I don’t fight the IRS because it’s not effective. When people would fight me or fight my revenue officers, it was never effective because I used to tell taxpayers when I was a revenue officer, you don’t want to cooperate, fine, I will clear my desk and I will just have your case on my desk and I will spend all my time on it trying to figure out how I am going to collect from you, okay? So, because you are having an interaction with another individual, another human being, and people like to be treated well, like to be treated nice, the revenue officer is the same way, they go home from work to a family, to a family dog, they are regular people. So, I always advocate, try to solve the case for the revenue officer. If you know what the rules are, the procedures are, what the internal revenue manual calls for with the case within those parameters. If they owe tax you know that the revenue officer is going to want a 433-A, a financial statement or if it’s a business 433-B, you know what the standards are, don’t ask the revenue officer to grant $5,000 expense for mortgage and utilities when the standard for the area is like 2,000 bucks. So, work to resolve the case for the revenue officer, that way they don’t have to spend as much time of concentration on your case. Be cooperative, you have got a deadline, try to meet the deadline. If you can’t meet the deadline, at least call the revenue officer ahead of time and say I can’t meet the deadline and this is why, and generally they will extend the deadline. Don’t argue with them over issues that are not important, okay? In my example, the mortgage and utilities are $5,000, the standard is $2,000, why are you arguing with them over that? You probably won’t get it. I mean, you can put a little bit, but why, “Here is all the utility bills and this is why.” But I would much rather spend my time arguing with the revenue officer over something that they did wrong rather than something that I know my chances of winning are slim to none. Kelly: You keep referring to the revenue officer, what’s the hierarchy of IRS case management, the point of contact, taxpayer? And, parenthetically, I am going to assume that you recommend in most cases that a taxpayer get help from a professional that knows how to navigate these areas, is that a fair statement? David: Yeah, It is. It depends on the case. It depends on how much the taxpayer owes. If the taxpayer owes $5,000 and they can pay $500 a month then I would just tell them, hey, call the IRS or send in a letter to the IRS that you want to make a monthly payment agreement. If they owe $50,000 or $150,000 then that’s a lot different, and then it depends on what they have. Taxpayers, what I have seen, they don’t want to spend their time trying to deal with the IRS. They don’t know how the IRS works; they don’t know how the IRS thinks; they don’t know the IRS language and they don’t know what the IRS can do to them. And I have had taxpayers come to me after they have dealt with the IRS, and generally, they have a deadline put on them and now they want me to fix the problem. And that’s like, well, you’ve got a deadline from the IRS which is in three days and you expect me to do all this work for you, and if the work is not done, financial statement is not submitted, they are going to lobby. I can’t guarantee you that I can do this. My recommendation to taxpayers is, do not contact the IRS. Generally, if you owe enough money and you don’t feel confident in dealing with the IRS, contact a professional that knows what they are doing, knows how to deal with the IRS, because you’ll probably sleep a lot better at nights rather than you trying to deal with the IRS. Kelly: And if you are a tax professional and you don’t know how to navigate through this side of the IRS area, the collection area, then that’s your focus now in your business enterprise, correct? You are helping tax professionals navigate through these waters? David: Yes. I am going to stop representing taxpayers, simply, because I have done it for close to 40 years. And what I would rather do now is just simply act as a consultant to tax professionals. If they have questions, I’ll help them develop strategies on particular cases. You know, I attended the National Association Enrolled Agents conference at Las Vegas every year and those are good conferences but what I see happening is that you have folks coming in and they kind of learn representation to add it on to their practice, which is good, but you sit there in a seminar for an hour to an hour and a half to two hours, for example, on filling out a financial statement, 433-A, that’s really, in my opinion, not enough, because there are implications to what you put down on that 433-A. Anybody can fill it out because you are just putting down numbers. So, if you write down for real estate, three bedrooms, two bath resident, that its fair market value is $500,000, and the mortgage against it is $100,000, for equity of $400,000, you have to know how the IRS is going to look at that $400,000, especially a revenue officer. You just can’t submit that 433-A and say to a revenue officer, here it is, and have yourself wide open or no prepare your client. The revenue officer is going to ask you to go borrow, so let’s get started right now. Kelly: Right, right. David: So, the seminars are good but until you really get out and start working cases, Offers in Compromises is another one, the Acceptance Rates on Offers in Compromise is just under 50 percent. I don’t submit a lot of offers but everyone, I’ve probably submitted maybe about 10, 15, at the most, everyone has been accepted except for one, and that is because she went and got a job, that increased her income which kind of blew the offer up. You know, you have to be really, really careful on what you are doing so that you can achieve success for your clients. So, my plans now going into the future is, do consulting work. People want to call me up, this is what I have got, this is the type of case, I can kind of walk them through it, and try this, this and this, and if that doesn’t work, you know what, let’s try this. And just, you know, basically be a coach is what I want to do. Kelly: Yeah, got it. So, back to that question, hierarchy of case management, you have got the revenue officer, the next level up from that, like his supervisor, what do you call that supervisor? David: That is the group manager, and that group manager is going to supervise anywhere from 10 to 15 revenue officers; above that is the territory manager - that was my last position, it was a territory manager, and they are supervising anywhere, nowadays, because the personnel has shrunken, you know, five to 10 groups. And then above the territory manager is the area director and he or she is supervising…They have States, like here in Texas we are a part of the golf state area, that area director is in Huston. And golf state, they did some reconfiguration, but it used to be Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia and Tennessee, and, I think, Arkansas. Kelly: Okay. So, back to revenue officer, so, let’s say we have got a revenue officer that says, I want to go after retirement assets, I think earlier you said they have to go up three levels so does that mean it goes to the area director or the territory manager? David: Goes to the group manager, the group manager forwards it to the territory manager who forwards it up to the area director. Kelly: Alright. David: Every area has what’s called a technical analyst and this person will review the case for the area director, looking at the technical aspects of the case - does it meets the requirement for whatever the revenue officer is asking for? And if the technical analyst says, yes, this is good, they will give it to the area director and then he or she will sign off on it and they’ll go and come back tomorrow and open the levy. Kelly: That’s retirement assets and then the personal residence, same thing but it goes up one level above that, did you say? David: Yeah, it will go up through the area director and then it goes over to a special unit called advisory, and these are senior revenue officers that will look at the case again for technical issues. Does it meets the technical, the legal and technical, does it meets the requirements for doing the seizure? The case will then move over to IRS council’s office for review. They will review it for the same thing and they will then forward it over to the Department of Justice Civil Tax Division for the DOJ to take it in to Federal District Court to get an appointment to take it to the Federal District Court. Kelly: Okay, that’s very helpful. I have two final questions, unrelated, where you talked about OIC and some of these other tactics that are used to deal with liabilities. Let’s talk about CNC, Currently Not Collectable, once a tax liability goes into CNC classification that kind of puts everything on hold, there is no more collection activity, when does it get further attention, it won’t stay in there forever? What’s the catalyst to get it out of that, is it a tax return that gets filed and then the IRS notices, oh, this guy is making ten times the income now, is that more or less what happens? David: That is what happens, the IRS when they see a case they will set an income threshold. It’s in the internal revenue manual on how they calculate that. What they are looking at is necessary living expenses, and they set the threshold a little bit higher than what the necessary living expenses are because they don’t want a case that is generating out just because the taxpayer went $5 over what their necessary living expenses were, but they’ll set a threshold and then when subsequently file tax return, the income will be matched up against what the threshold is. And if their income is now greater than what the threshold is the case will then be regenerated out for collection because the assumption is the taxpayer is making more money now they can start paying towards something. If the taxpayer never exceeds that threshold the case will never come out, the statute will expire and that will be the end of it. Kelly: Alright, okay. David: And even, I think, if the taxpayer doesn’t file tax returns it won’t be put out of CNC status but what will happen is the IRS will be asking for the tax returns which is a whole other area to go into. Kelly: Yeah, right, right, okay. Alright, the final question is on internal collection versus external collection. A part of these ads we see on TV is, the IRS has hired a bevy of external collection agents that will really go after you, if you think your life was bad before, it really will be bad now. What are the facts on that? David: Now, there is big controversy over these private debt collections. The National Taxpayer Advocate is definitely opposed to it. IRS management, they tried this a number of years ago because they want to assign the low hanging fruit to cases that they cannot collect, the CNC cases to these private debt collectors. The most that they can do is make a phone call, try to locate the taxpayer and make a phone call but when it comes to actually resolving the case, say for example it’s a CNC case, private debt collector gets in touch with them and the taxpayer says, well, okay, I want to pay $100 a month, that case has to go back to IRS. IRS has to set up the payment agreement. They have no enforcement authority, basically, they are just trying to talk people into paying what they owe, track them down and pay what they owe. Internally, like we said at the beginning, the brown bear can chase them up the tree but the grizzly bear can just rip the tree out, that’s what IRS can do. Kelly: Yeah, right. Well, that is terrific. So, your market now is to help tax professionals help other taxpayers with tax liability issues. How would you like them to get in touch with you, telephone call, email? David: My email is david@dfwtaxhelp. That’s delta foxtrot whiskey tax help, h e l p.com. I have a website dfwtaxhelp.com, phone number is 214.997.4470. Kelly: That’s great. David: Yes, people have questions, you know, and I will tell you, NAEA just came out with this forum where people can post questions, and I look at that sometimes and people will post a question on collection issues, maybe something on an offer, and various people will respond. And I look at that and I think to myself, the person that is asking the question is maybe getting two or three lines of an answer. And in a lot of stuff in collection there is permutations to it, there is different nuances that can occur. You can plan to go down one path and you have to know what’s down that path that can mess things up. So, I see that forum is good for quick short answers but if you really, really want to know how to handle a specific situation you really need to talk to somebody that is familiar with the situation that can give you some good directions, to give you good ideas on strategies of what to do. Kelly: That’s terrific. Well, David, I look forward to having you on my team to help me and my customers deal with this because I think you are a terrific resource to have and I am glad that that former grizzly bear is in my corner and are helping people. I like that. David: I like that. I will have to tell my colleagues that I am still with the IRS. It’s terrific. Well, thank you, Kelly. Kelly: Thanks. David: Alright. Kelly: I enjoy talking to you, great. Bye. David: Alright, bye, bye.

"Where are you in relation to what you're trying to manifest?" David Thomas Wright helps spiritual and creative entrepreneurs to manifest their big vision and recognize their divine worth. David and I talk about developing intuition to enhance your manifesting journey, the interplay of intuition and intentions, the Law of Attraction. If you have questions about whether the impulse to relocate is part of a higher calling for you … David has lived this experience of following his intuition to a new city and manifesting a new life for himself. GUEST LINKS - DAVID THOMAS WRIGHT Intuitive Icons Maverick Manifesting Group HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSONSlade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition FACEBOOK GROUPShift Your Spirits Community BECOME A PATRONpatreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Slade: Texting back and forth, messaging on Facebook about my love life or whatever and it kind of came up. The thing that really struck me was, I've thought about doing shows on... I think it's called astrocartography and location-based purpose and feeling this sense of, I've got to move somewhere cool. I mean, we've all experienced that at some point in our life. Over the years, this is something that clients bring in readings all the time, are these questions about feeling like they need to move somewhere and that a better life is waiting for them somewhere else. On the one hand, I do believe that in some cases, if you manifest everything else that you possibly want and need, it probably won't matter where you are. Like if I took you where you are right now and you said, "I'm unhappy. I don't have anyone." If I suddenly gave you this wonderful job working from home, and then you randomly met the love of your life living two blocks away, suddenly you don't want to leave. David: Absolutely. Slade: Yeah. David: It changes everything. Slade: But you kind of lived this idea of following an impulse to move somewhere specific and begin a new life. So I want you to take me back to where you were before all that happened, and tell me about how this manifestation journey to another place unfolded for you. David: Sure. So I've always felt that obviously places are about people. So being drawn to a place would have some sort of "knock on" effect where you're being drawn to the right people and the right circumstances. But I was looking for something in my life and I was looking for a sense of home. Because I didn't really have, and hadn't had that sense of home and belonging for a long, long time. When I was in my early 20s, I studied in London, and had to come back home because it was so expensive to live there and was still looking for work. I went through a phase in my life where I thought it was about going back to London or this dream, or this aspiration to go back to London, and that was the kind of measurement of my wellbeing or not. Over time, it seemed to kind of disappear. That intention or that need to return to London just wasn't there anymore. And I was actually living here in Lincolnshire and I went on holiday for the first time to Edinburgh, Scotland. Now there is a bit of a backstory and I don't know whether I told you this but I was first working with clients and giving psychic, intuitive readings. I was probably about 17, 18, and I used to sense what was Scottish guide or a Scottish influence which I felt was to do with his ancestry. Not past lives but some sort of remembrance. And it would come in and sometimes I would see this and it's going to sound a little cheesy, but a little bit like what we see now in Outlander. So that kind of Scottish chieftan and the kind of full Highlander regalia. Quite hot really. And that's what I got from this guide and again it just kind of fizzled out in the early 20s. And then there was a point in my life when I was looking for a sense of home and belonging, and this Scottish feeling, whatever that means, this kind of pull towards Scotland came in again. And I noticed that when I opened up to give readings, and I knew that it wasn't about the clients. It was just something that was slipping into that vibration because I was open to channel. I thought, okay, well the last time I thought about this, I was kind of early 20s. Now I'm sort of mid-30s. It's been a journey. I looked back at my old journals from the time and I kept writing "the royal road the royal road" over and over again. I also wrote the word "Bute". And hand on heart, whether it's subconscious or not, this is before the age of Google, or before I had access to Google, I thought Butes was in Cornwall but that's Bude. So Bute is an Isle which I've visited now since, and that was kind of in my freestyling automatic writing journalling in my early 20s and also "the royal road". Now, short story, I think "the royal road" is the Royal Mile, which is the main historical high street, if you like, in Edinburgh. So I kept being drawn to Scotland, and specifically, Edinburgh. I went with my partner at the time and it was like falling in love. So if anyone has been to Edinburgh, it is a beautiful city aesthetically. Amazing architecture, a lot of heritage. You're near the sea. There's a castle on volcanic rock. It's like Game of Thrones. But then you kind of have your high street and everything you would want from a major city. I was just wowed by it. It felt like falling in love with a person. It was a completely magnetic pull. I did visit a couple of times afterwards and on one visit, I went to a past life regression expert because I was like, what is this all about, this draw? I now feel that it isn't necessarily about a past life as it is about ancestry. I've tried to trace the ancestry but what came up for me eventually was, well why does it matter? Does it have to be quantified or qualified with, it's an ancestral thing or it's a past life thing. Maybe this just speaks to now. So I thought, okay, this has always been here in some way. One point that I do want to make is, I don't know how you feel about this Slade, but there's quite a small divide between what we would call an intuitive hunch and spontaneous manifestation. I guess I'll explain that a bit more later, but what I manifested here, some might say it was destiny or fate, as in: you got the prompts intuitively when you were in your early 20s and then you followed those prompts and you were meant to live here and so it was always gonna happen. It could have been fated or predicted. Yes, to an extent. But I actually began to use manifesting processes for the first time in my life, to make sure that I would move and have the opportunity to move to Edinburgh. Because as soon as I went there, I got tingles now talking about it, it was like being in love. There was a calm. It wasn't just about desire or longing and a strong need to start again and have a new life. Which I did need. I think sometimes when it's intuitive, there's like a calm underneath because you know the pieces are going to come together one way or the other. I know, of course, that people would say you can goalset your way to relocating. Yeah, absolutely. And some of my friends are coaches in the more conventional perspective and they sometimes struggle with what we would call the woo-woo scale of energy manifesting all the time _____ But the way this unfolded is I couldn't have strategized my way to Edinburgh. I could've literally but it would taken a long time or it wouldn't have happened in this way at the right time. Because I made a friend, completely out of the blue, via Instagram, and that made it possible for me to move and stay with him for a few months while I got myself together. I guess I'm skipping a little bit forward in time. Talking about my process, which might be useful to others if you wanted to try this. Whether it's a business dream, whether it's a passion project, whether it's about relocation, I really like to help people with a big vision, and I think a lot of that has come from my own journey moving to Edinburgh. So what I did was put images around me at home in Lincolnshire of Edinburgh. You know the castle. And also, more kind of not just the touristy stuff but kind of more earthy and grounded images and associations with the city. Because I'm thinking, I'm not always going to be hanging around the castle or going to tourist attractions. Sometimes I'm gonna just be going to the local shop. So I found images online which kind of represented an earthier side of the city as if I'm living there, not just being a tourist. I also put sort of post-it notes around my house and they were supposed to be subliminal. I think the subliminal approach works because the idea of reaffirming can be quite forceful and therefore quite tense experience, and the desire to reinforce something through constant affirmations is fear-based. And I think there's a tension underneath that which could actually push an experience away from you. So what I try to do was to take a more subliminal approach with post-it notes, with these postcard images I had around. I think I had a vision board. Also, one of the most effective things I find is to record an audio of what you are experiencing in the present tense as if you have it now. These are the principles that are kind of well known to people who are listening, but it worked for me. Hearing it in my own voice and just having it in the background as I'm walking down the street or as I'm falling asleep I think made a huge difference to my energy and to my ability to just expect this outcome. Not hope, because I think hope is obviously a wonderful emotion, but I think when you really begin to rock and roll with the manifesting, it's about an inevitability sort of feeling. It's an intuitive inevitability. It's kind of like, I don't want this and I'm not hoping for it because that's a pull. But I'm sort of expecting it and I kind of know. And so the stuff that could not be strategized, for example, chance meetings as I said at the beginning. It's all about people more than it is about places. Financially, I wasn't in a super abundant place. So having the opportunity to just stay with someone for three months was hugely helpful to get me on my feet and to get me in the city. And that friend of mine has got quite an insistent character, and he is, I don't know if he'd agree with this, but I see him as more confident than me. He's a performer for a living. So I see him as having all this confidence and he gave me, I think, on more than one occasion, a bit of a push and like, just do this. Do you know what I mean? Let's just get on with it and you can stay with me for a few months. That was hugely helpful. Also what gave me the incentive to move forward. This is where I think it gets quite juicy. The manifesting stuff for me isn't just about identifying something that you want. I also think that you choose something. For me, it was a city and everything that I believed I would experience there, including having some not so good days and expecting it to not be like a paradise but being alive and being real. It's almost like lassoing your energy to something, like a cowboy. For me, it was a city. I think sometimes when we're attracted to things in that way, it's a focal point. And then you can train your energy and vibration, yes to manifest the outcome where I'm living in that physical city, but also it's like a reference point to up-vibe, or to scale up your vibe, whatever way you want to put it so that you become a vibrational match for what you want. But also that you release anything that does not serve you in the meantime. Because as soon as I set this intention in a real way and look at manifesting, I actually attracted what was a quite tumultuous love affair, sort of fling, sort of dark night of the soul experience. I think that it made my own experience like a living hell. That sounds like an exaggeration but... Slade: Wait a minute. Tell us a little bit about what that was. David: Yup. Okay. Slade: That sounded way too juicy. David: Yeah it's so juicy. You're gonna get more juiced. So this was about me trying to, or being able to, release myself from any mindsets which was preventing me from allowing, accepting, attracting, manifesting the outcome. So when I do talk to people about my manifesting, it's not like I'm saying, "Buckle up, it's going to be a rough ride", because it doesn't have to be at all. But I think that to really get what you want, because manifesting is about feelings. It isn't about physical stuff. Yes you do manifest the physical experience, but you're able to inhabit it in the way that you asked for. Because your mindset has changed. For example, going back to love and romance, a lot of people ask me about manifesting love, and I don't think that they just want someone to validate them and say, "Wow, you're really gorgeous and sexy and I want to spend my life with you. In their own experience, they want to feel comfortable themselves and to be able to receive that and enjoy that and feel good about that. So, I don't know if you've had this experience, but a lot of readers will get asked, what is someone else thinking about me? Or, what is my love interest thinking about me? And in the end, the manifesting stuff is so powerful because it is about how you perceive that situation. Because if you can't feel comfortable with it, then you could have the guy under your window serenading you but you might not feel the way you want it to feel. So when you do manifestation and you're saying to the Universe, "I want this", it isn't just about... I think what the Universe hears is not only you want to live in this postal code, this zip code. It's hearing, you want to have a certain emotional experience. So what we're going to do is to organize everything to enable that to happen. So yeah, you get to live in the postal code / zip code, or, and, you get feel the way that you want to feel. A part of that was, in my journey, I developed a really magnetic, but at times toxic, connection with someone. I wasn't looking for that necessarily. I wasn't really looking for a long term partnership because I'd recently left a relationship. But it is something that pushed all of my buttons. I'm not really keen on the conversation that I hear a lot of, which is empath versus narcissist, and kind of putting people into boxes in that way. If I identify as an empath, let's just say that a lot of stuff happened which would be a struggle for anyone, but particularly an empath who is, like myself, a bit emotional, intuitive, empathic machine. What it brought about was, it prompted me to think about, what do you really want? Because it's part of this experience. There was an invitation to an extent. I don't know if the invitation was to build a life with that person. But it was, are you going to stick around and commit to this relationship or connection, whatever we call that, and therefore commit more to the city that you're living in right now, or do you want something else entirely. And it could have been quite tempting to say, "Actually, I want to stay because what I'm really looking for is the right kind of partnership and this could be it. So I'll just stay here then." What I found in that experience is that my needs weren't met so that was a bit of a wake up call. But also, as that played out, and it was at times confusing and upsetting and a little bit hellish for me, which would've been to do with my own mindset stuff. I'm not into blame around that or why didn't this person do this differently, but it sort of highlighted to me that it would be quite difficult now to find what I am looking for in this small city. And it'd already been difficult to find the kind of work that I wanted or of course nowadays we can be on the internet and we can be international, etc. And it was, when I say ____, I mean that in a good way. It was a real indicator that it is time to go, David. It really is time to move on. Because my associations with... I couldn't not think about memories and triggering negative experiences from this romantic encounter that I'd had, or relationship. I was thinking about it in my home. I was walking about in a small city and I'm thinking, am I going to bump into that person? It's painful when I do see that person and it was kind of like, no, this is a sign that it is time to get out of Dodge. There were a few peak experiences and coincidences, or synchronicities, with that person and in that experience where it was kind of like, Ohmygod, this is becoming more and more uncomfortable. I feel something is prompting me and pushing me to make a choice about the future and really move on. So the opportunities were there for going back to Edinburgh, which is where I wanted to move to. The opportunities were there to move, arguably before. But something happened in me where I just let go. You know when you sometimes seek advice from other people, even those people who care for you or intuitive. Intuitive friends of mine and psychic friends of mine who've kind of given their take on things and my journey. It's always going to look easy for them because they're not living it. But they were correct. It was that, they were telling me that all the pieces were there but there was something in me that had to shift to claim it, and to be able to move forward. And something had to happen which kind of pushed me. Now I don't think any external force made that happen to me because I don't really believe in that as such. And I certainly don't have any feelings for that person, because it seems like a long, long time ago now or the experience that I had. But there is an unconscious aspects to manifesting as well. And a lot of the processes that we see talked about are, they're quite conscious mind. Repeat enough information. It's very cognitive, it's very on the surface. But I also believe that manifesting can happen on a subconscious level because what I did, I believe I created also that difficult experience and attracted it and entertained it because I knew it would push me to the limit. It would push me to making a choice and work through some blocks which I may not have done otherwise. I am a procrastinator. I don't know if that's a Virgo thing, but I am a champion procrastinator. That's what led me to look at coaching, because I was looking for something that would take me out of my procrastination and sort of galvanize me a little bit. So I think I manifested the difficult circumstances to prompt myself to actually make that move. I guess the moral of the story is: manifestation, it isn't just about bricks and mortar or, you know, zip codes. It is about what you feel a place would represent, if we're talking about relocation. Ultimately it's about people, and that became true. Because I had a lot of ideas and intentions about what Edinburgh was going to represent. I wasn't ____ sort of like fairyland, where all your dreams come true and it's perfect all the time. Because I knew it would be a real home, and as people, we have, day to day, different experiences. Sometimes we're happy, sometimes we're sad. I framed these ideas about what it was going to represent. And I actually moved to Edinburgh a couple years ago. It was April the 1st and I think that is quite significant because that is April Fool's day of course. It makes me think of the Fool in the tarot. Slade: Yeah. David: Which is the first stage of the journey and it's a leap of faith and being "foolish" and going against the grain and going against limiting beliefs and just going for that. So I've always felt that was significant. And I gave away most of my stuff. I gave it to charity shops or I sold it or I just got rid of it. And so when I moved out to Edinburgh to stay with my friend, I had probably two large suitcases with me on the train. That was it. So I'm sitting on the train and spirit are talking to me. And maybe this is an experience that other people have had. I can hear spirit very well when I am travelling, especially if I'm not having to do anything. I actually haven't driven a car for years and years, funny enough, but I did qualify to drive. But when I'm sitting on my own, on a train or something like that, because you're kind of in between two realities, you're between two spaces, and quite often there's not a lot to do. You're just looking out the window and that has always prompted amazing ideas, such as, it makes me think about J.K. Rowling when she had the whole idea for the plotline of Harry Potter came to her on a train. I can understand. Slade: Yeah! David: I understand that. Funny enough, she wrote Harry Potter in Edinburgh. I love her. Slade: I do too. David: Yeah, big fan. So, I think it is a special energy, to be between states in that way. Literally, I guess, sometimes. So I hear spirit really clearly. And I would also say is a tip if you want to manifest or intend, this in between space, this liminal space when you're travelling, is a good place to do it. But anyway, they're chatting to me. "So what you going here for then?" And I'm like, well you know, because you prompted me, or you were part of this conversation or this creation process. "So what are your intention then?" And I'm kind of talking about this big lofty stuff. They're like, "Okay, yeah, cool, but really what did you want to find?" "Well I want to find a partner. I want to find a husband." They're like, "Okay, we're getting to it now." That's the nitty gritty. This is how I talk to spirit. That's how they talk to me. It's very like friends over coffee. So it is about career opportunities, and it is about beautiful architecture. But it's also about, let's find a life partner. Let's find that lovely partner/husband/etc. And they said, "Okay then. So be it. As you intend it, it's there." And they said, "Why don't you just drop another wish into the well. Why don't you just give us something else and nothing is big or lofty as the life partner or the career dream. Why don't you just drop something in there." I'm like, "You know what? I've always wanted to sail or learn to sail or be on boats or spend time on the water. And it's not been this burning passion since I was a kid. It's just something that I've always been really curious about." And they're like, "Okay, cool." So I dropped that in the wishing well kind of thing. So April the 1st I move there. Then I began looking for friends on a dating app. The magic of dating apps we know can be very powerful. So I met my partner Joe on the 26th of April and that was it. So him arriving took 26 days and it was a feeling of complete certainty from the very beginning. From the first time I met him in person. I can't claim to be super intuitive about talking to him before that point because I just thought he looked quite sexy, that was it. Maybe that was necessary, do you know what I mean? Instead of having these lofty intuitive insights about this picture of this guy. He looks hot. I'm gonna meet him. I think that's a good enough prompt, don't you? Slade: Well yeah, because, let's just state for the record here, because obviously I've recorded a bunch of stuff about relationship things and men and all that. David: That was genius, Slade. Slade: Thank you! The one thing I've gotten a lot of questions about or messages about and I just need to put it out there because it's honestly never come up before. All of the intuition in the world kind of goes out the window when you're dealing with this kind of attraction. I think people beat themselves up a lot, just the average muggle beats themselves up for not having better intuition about someone they're romantically involved with. Like you said, the first impulse is a kind of sexual attraction. That sort of throws you into your lizard brain anyway and... But for whatever reason, and oddly enough, I remember hearing another psychic, TV psychic, talk about this one time and her whole philosophy was we learn about ourselves through people and through these relationships, especially these very serious challenging relationships. There would be no lessons for us. There would be no opportunity to grow through these people if we kind of could predict everything about it, or knew at a glance this person's story. David: Yes. Slade: Now I might have that kind of complete feeling about other people, but yeah, just for the record, when it's potentially, like you said, your future husband, you're probably not gonna get all that much information. David: And actually, you are completely right. And I would say, my ability to intuit for myself, not about men necessarily, but other choices that I make or other life aspects, that has probably developed in the last few years. And I think it's because of this manifesting work I've been doing. And I would make that separate to, obviously intuitive work that I've done for other people. So I've been able to be intuitive for others in some capacity since I was about 12. The ability to intuit for myself, how it's manifesting, however, a lot of people talk about intuition in the context of caution and that's what I don't quite get. My intuition has always, and how it relates to manifesting, like two sides to the same coin, has always been about, I feel intuitively drawn to Edinburgh, for example, and I intuitively know that this is going to fall into place. And I want to say, that's got nothing to do with my work as a psychic or whatever word that you want to use. So if anyone is listening to this, it's not about being intuitive to the level that you can do that for others or do that professionally. This does apply to everybody. It would, of course, apply very much to empathic people or people who are naturally more intuitive. But what I find interesting is, there are some people who hone intuition and then they think they need to veer off into these realms of using that for people, some sort of vocation or profession. And actually, we don't. And there are a lot of intuitives who are professionals who, when they are trained, never get told, "Hey, you know what? These intuitive insights, you can use this to empower yourself without going straight into a service role for others. I like to help people with that because my intuition I sense in relation to manifesting and attracting what I want isn't anything to do with the process that happens when I support other people. It's completely different because... I call it an intuitive yes feeling, and it's something I like to help people develop because people, as I was saying, people talk about intuition in the realms of caution, and I don't really get that. Because we could call that instinct and as you said, that's lizard brain. That is, there's a car coming, or something that we see animals do when they intuitively know there's an earthquake. I get that. Without getting lost in the semantics of it, maybe we call that instinct or animal instinct or lizard brain instinct. Intuition is, for me, it's a warm "yes" feeling, which tells you where you are in relation to your intentions and what you're trying to manifest. So if I'm thinking, do I go to that party? It's like, yeah. So going back to finding my partner on a dating app, the sexy curiosity was enough. Because it wasn't about me reading him as a psychic to find out something that might be "wrong". I'm doing air quotes. You can probably see me. That's not the approach. It was - something resonates about this. I didn't feel I had the energy for... Not that I didn't have the energy for a life partnership to appear, but I certainly didn't have the energy for a big lofty experience, which would make me analyze. And like the Virgo I am, make me think it all to death, because I'd just been through that painful experience that we talked about earlier. So actually, sometimes, it is intuitive, or it is the right thing to say, "He looks hot. I might hang out with him." And so, that's what I needed. In order to manifest it, I didn't need to think, I wonder if he's Capricorn or whatever, or am I looking for evidence of narcissistic traits or is he kind to animals and things like that. It's nothing to do with that. It's just, let's be open. Like the Fool in the tarot again, let's be open, let's be playful. Because that is the, what's the word, that is what the soul does. So for me, intuition and how that relates to manifestation isn't about fear, and it isn't, "Oh, my intuition is telling me not to go to that party". "My intuition doesn't tell me good vibes about her." My feeling around intuition, maybe it's a different word I should be using, is that I've set an intention and the Universe is telling me where I am in relation to it by the vibes that I'm getting. What that means is, if I'm tuning in to the soul, I've never been fully comfortable with that word, I don't know why, but I guess you know what I mean. The soul isn't afraid. The soul self just wants to expand. It wants to explore and it's playful. I often think about babies who swim when you take them to the first swimming class because they don't have a fear of water and that reminds me of the energy that we come into this earthly experience with. It's just like, I want to explore and I'm here to expand and I don't feel I'm not entitled to anything. I feel worthy. I feel that everything is possible. I'm not scared about what Abraham Hicks would call the contrast in life and the possible difficult experiences. I'm not scared of that at all. I came here for the variety. I really, really believe that. So when I make an intuitive choice, sometimes it will be about something. I'm sure it was intuitive for me to have that big dramatic hot fling that I had before I left Lincolnshire. That was intuitive because someone could say to me, you should have trusted your intuition, because there would have been signs that this was not a great experience for you. But my intuition led me to what I needed to experience to make my choice to lead me to my manifestation. It was all intuition and coming from that soul perspective, my soul wasn't scared of that. It was, we need to do this to work through some stuff. Let's be the Fool in the tarot. Let's dive in. Let's take a leap of faith. Let's know that nothing can really hurt us if we are in our power. And so I came to Edinburgh with that mindset, and it was like, I don't have a fixed expectation. I was in no way looking for a life partner or husband. I dropped my intention into the wishing well but it certainly wasn't high on my list of priorities. And that's why I feel I manifested this quite quickly because I didn't have a whole story around it. I wasn't thinking, ohmygod there's a piece missing here unless there's a husband. That was not my thinking at all. It was playfulness. And like I said, he looks hot. That's enough. And that is why I think it worked. Also because he's a muggle. That helps. The contrast helps for me enormously. And going back to the sailing thing that I put into my wishing well when I was talking to spirit. The first date was in a coffee shop. Second date was spending time together. And probably, was it like 10 days after we met, I went to a party which was his brother's and bride-to-be. It was an engagement party and we went obviously via car but then we went on a boat. Because he is an experienced sailor. So his family, they were brought up with that. He actually took his brother's boat to travel to the location of where this party was. So as part of that, for about 30 seconds, I actually handled the boat really badly, really, really badly. Like, what the hell are you doing? But, there we go. And it was just, I think the moral of the story is, when you are easy about these things, they can manifest more quickly. And it was because I wasn't there hunting for a husband. I was probably thinking, god, I don't want any kind of stress because I've just been through a stressful experience in this aspect of my life. But I was also expecting things to be easy. And in some way, I didn't have expectation either way. When I said, yeah, let's spend time in a boat, that was so easy that there was no resistance. There was no block. And then it appeared in my experience. And that's the key to it. And I think that when it comes to big visions, big visions can be a career dream, it can be a relocation or it can be a passion project. But that there is a way you have to feel easy about it so that the manifestation has less resistance to work with. That is hard sometimes when we lasso, like the cowboy, we're lassoing to a big outcome straight away. And what I would say, if anybody is trying to play with manifesting, because it is like play. The most joyful aspects, ohmygod the Universe is talking back to me. That's my favourite part. It's not like, okay, well, I've got a partner now. Or I'm living here now. That's not what it's about for me. It was about the journey. It was about, I am living in a co-creative universe and it is a delight and it's making me laugh and I'm kind of in awe because all these signs and synchronicities are talking back to me. That is the buzz for me. You are right in as much as, I could have created these experiences in an entirely different city. But somewhere, intuition whatever, prompted me from my early 20s and came back in again and said, Will it be Scotland or in other words, before you came to this life, you set forth some intentions about what you want to have and enjoy, and what you wanted that to feel like. Spirit's feedback is, "that looks Scotland-shaped" or "you could easily experience these sensations in Scotland". It could happen in other cities and with all due respect to my partner, my lovely partner, it could happen with other people, but that... the prompts were, "this looks Scotland-shaped to us" or "it's kind of Edinburgh-shaped". Feelings that you want to experience and the vibration, if you like. It is very much in the shape of this person or ___. So that was the prompt, if that makes sense. It's all about feelings, and I've stopped looking for physical evidence as knowing that manifesting works in this machine-like way. When I first explored the idea of manifesting and magic and creating something, a lot of that came through my exploring in my teens of Wicca, witchcraft magic, which is still a big part of me, an earthly spirituality, a big part of me. There was a lot of literature I read at the time which was like recipe books and it was like, for this outcome, you'll need a certain coloured candle and do it this moon phase and it was all about paraphernalia and it wasn't telling me what I needed to do in my own energy to create that experience. Some of what I read, and of course, this is not a comment on Wicca and witchcraft as a whole. Of course not. I'm sure we've all read those books where it is about manipulating some way, and there's some secret and it's about finding this gemstone and this herb and then you'll get this outcome. Whereas for me, whether you want a guy, a car, or a house, or a relocation, you're wanting a set of feelings and feeling experiences and the Universe knows how to fill in the gaps and deliver that to you. When someone says, I want to feel this way in my love life, it might not be their most current or problematic partner who's going to be able to give them that experience. So there is that openness to, okay, if I just keep open, and know that the Universe has heard my intention, then it will try to fill in the blanks. I mean, in all my time as a reader, makes me sound 108, but in all my time as a reader, I've never heard Spirit say, you can have this, I mean, to the client, you can have this but you can't have that. Or people ask about time frame and it's kind of like, you can manifest this in three months but you can't manifest this in three days. I've never heard that. And I've also never heard Spirit talk in a cautionary way, going back to that topic of caution, you should do this or you can't have that or that's not possible. They're not interested in doing that. They're interested, I think, in helping us to connect with our self worth and the reality that we are powerful creators and we are here to create and manifest and that should be playful and it should be joyful. And then to help us work through any blocks, mindset blocks, energy blocks, whatever that's preventing that from happening more ___. That's it. That's what it's all about. Slade: So tell us a little bit about how this wisdom impacts the work that you do right now. Talk to me. Because I know as I'm listening to it, I'm thinking, well what would he have to say about this experience that I have going on over here. So I know there's a lot of other people listening thinking, Ooo, I would love to get his input on what I'm trying to manifest. So tell us a little bit about how you work. David: So the manifesting approach is obviously a passion of mine. It came from not necessarily enjoying certain books although I do, and resources from other teachers on this subject. My first awareness of whether we call it the Law of Attraction or manifesting or conscious creation, was from being a teenager and giving readings and working with... Or it was not being able to work with the premises that people... I mean ideas people have around what readings were. So somebody was saying to me, what is my fate? I'm kind of thinking, I don't know whether I can see that. Why can't I see that? And that's not how it looks to me. And I've realized after reading energy and looking at what was going on with people's lives, I wanted to help them with their relationship to that, and their own empowerment. And to let them know that part of the process. Because the common questions... I know we've got choices about how we present our work if we are intuitives. A lot of the questions were, what is going to happen to me and what is in the stars? And I was thinking, I don't know whether I can read it this way. And I don't work in that way now obviously. But it was, there's something else going on here where, if I can tune that person back in their power, that they can create this outcome and then they don't need a forecast. So that was my first kind of lightbulb moment. I feel that I can hear what your intuition would tell you if you could hear it and you didn't have to worry about or you weren't worrying about your shopping list and you haven't just had a really triggering argument with your boss. Or your conditioning from childhood wasn't making you freak out right now because that is the experience for most of us. We're kind of carrying that. And so what I feel I do is I cut through that. One way to frame it is, okay, Spirit Guides, or your Spirit Guides, are giving me this information and that is one way to interpret what's going on within a reading. But I actually think, no this is what the client would do if they weren't inhibited by the things that so many of us are going through life. So if I could turn down the volume on your negative self talk, and let's identify and work through this conditioning that you have gathered in your life. You would see your own worth more clearly and you would see your own ability to create your outcome more clearly. And so the way that I work is, where are you in relation to what you are trying to manifest. Slade: Tell us where we can go to find you online if we want to get a reading with you. David: So you can find me on Facebook. The website is still in development, but on Facebook it is Intuitive Icons with David Thomas Wright, my brand name, and all the information is there. But you can drop me a line via Facebook page and we can get a conversation going. Any questions you might have, you can ask. I also have a Facebook group, which is The Maverick Manifesting group with David Thomas Wright. The url for that would be https://www.facebook.com/groups/dtwcommunity/ Slade: Awesome. This was a great conversation, David. Thank you for coming on and talking to me. David: Thank you! Thanks for having me.

In part I of The Frontside's microstates series, Charles Lowell, Taras Mankovski, and David Keathley talk about state management that's easy and fun and transactionality. This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. Upcoming Conference Talks: Toronto.js - July 30th (Taras) Manhattan.js - August 8th (Taras) ReactJS Austin August 6th (Charles) Transcript: CHARLES: Hello, everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode 106. My name is Charles Lowell, a developer here at Frontside and I'm going to be hosting today's episode and we're going to be talking about microstates with fellow Frontside developers, David Keathley and Taras Mankovski. Welcome you all. DAVID: Hello. TARAS: Hello, hello. CHARLES: I'm really, really excited that we finally get to talk about this but before we jump into this, just wanted to let everybody know that last week, we published our roadmap for Big Test, which is a JavaScript acceptance testing framework that we've been building right here, in-house at Frontside, which can work with both Ember applications and React applications, Vue applications. It's in alpha phase and we're looking for feedback but we're really excited about it, so we're going to leave a link to that in the show notes and please go check it out. All right. Finally, the moment has come that we actually get to talk about this publicly. We've been publishing things about microstates for a while now but we feel that it's ready to share with the world and that's really, really exciting. We should probably like wind the clock back a few years because that's about how long we've been working on this and talk about, kind of the why and the what of what microstates are. It's kind of a weird word. What are we doing here? TARAS: Yes. That's interesting question because we were working for so long and after all this time, what is this specifically we're working on. I can speak personally from my personal motivations because we have conversations over the last two years to why we were doing this and I think for me personally, it's always been that I've been mentoring building complex applications for almost five years now and one of the things that I find consistently is that there are patterns for how to build complex stateful UIs that the required solutions, that are fairly reliably consistent. I can teach people certain patterns and then they can use patterns to build complex applications and those patterns scale really well, the challenge is that, there's not an easy way to express them and it's different for every framework. The way that I would teach somebody how to do it, for example in Ember versus how they would do it in React, even though the pattern itself is the same but the implementation of the pattern is different but it's different in such a way that it's very difficult to see where the consistency is, what is the same about these two patterns. It shows me that there is room for improvement. In the same way that if there is an opportunity that in the future, components will get unified under one umbrella or what component spec. The fact that we do states differently across every implementation, across every opinion, it suggests that what we might be missing is something that would unify across frameworks, how we actually do statement management. CHARLES: Yeah, that makes sense because as much as people try to buck the trend of MVC, it can't keep coming back in the rear view. Hopefully, not like a horror villain but like a caring friend, like a reliable pattern. I remember when I was in writing Java applications back in the day, the most important thing when you were writing a swing application was making sure that you had your models right. If you were modeling either a form or a dialogue or a set of pages, the most important thing was to have those models. Back in the day, we modeled those things with event listeners, very similar to where the way like a Backbone application used to work or if you're familiar with Ember Object, the way that it worked basically, adding observers to some model so that when that model change, you were able to react to that. Your representation was able to be 100% dependent on this model. That was like a Java Swing Application, which was then inherited from this pattern from Smalltalk but we keep on seeing this again and again and again. There is this piece, this state, that if you're going to be representing something, then you need to be able to get at the meat of it. That's ultimately what the model is in the MVC pattern. I remember when React first came out, everybody was like, "Oh, MVC is dead," but now in terms of state management and all of the state management solutions that we see, what that really is, is the model trying to reassert itself. Because it's such an important piece of your application, it's going to rear its head and you cannot escape it. I make it sound like a problem. I guess, it is a problem but there's a proliferation of solutions out there that are attacking the problem in order to represent something you have to know what that something is. DAVID: I think when you only work with the one framework, your perspective might be very much shaded by your experience. If you're really good at building React applications and you have subscribed to POJO is king and you don't need anything beyond that, then you're going to get good at handling POJOs and you might not realize that there is actually limitations to what you're doing. I think the same applies to people who use Ember and they're using Ember Object and they have computer properties and now, in Angular, there is observables and subscribing to streams. What was really interesting with the work that we've been doing with microstates is that and one of things that have notice with other state management solutions is that a lot of them emerge as, "Oh, I had this insight. I spend a couple of days working on it. Here's my proposal, in a way, for managing state." I think that's great because insight and understanding is really important but sometimes, taking the time to design something can be really helpful. I think that one of the things that are really interesting with microstates is that because we've been iterating on it for so long, they've been testing it for so long, we've been able to do something in microstates that's really difficult to do when you have a production application that you're like, "I want something different. Something is not enough but I don't have the time to really make it better," or, "I have an idea. I want to release this thing but I don't have any other collaborators that I can talk to and really flush out these ideas," so what you get is a solution but it doesn't always touch on a lot of the angles that you want to touch on. It's really interesting when you think about -- CHARLES: I'd say, we should talk about those angles, like what are some of those angles? DAVID: Yes. You could think about this from a few different perspectives. I would say, from Ember perspective because that's been my personal starting point. For anyone who was listening. Ember and Vue, for all intents and purposes, in this scenario are very similar because they have the same primitive, which is the computer property. The computer property in Ember, the computer property in Vue is almost identical from the way that you actually consume. In Ember, you would use computer properties and in Vue, it's just computer properties to create derived state from data that's passed into the component and then, you would use is derived state to basically, decorate information that comes with the props, so you could present it in your component. This pattern is very nice. This pattern is being used to build LinkedIn, to build applications at Apple. There are huge implications being built by Ember community using this patterns and I'm sure something similar has happening now with Vue but this pattern doesn't really exist in React in the same way. You might opt in to start using this pattern if you start using [inaudible] but it's not quite the same. Writing computer properties in Ember and in Vue is essentially free because it's so effortless, where in React, if you're using [inaudible] to create cache computer properties and memorize computer properties, you are really opting into doing a particular way of computing this properties and writing selectors that's not trivial. I think that's one thing that is available in Vue and Ember and it's a really effective pattern and you can do it in React but it's actually not possible in Angular, unless you're using, I'm guessing something like ngrx, where you can do similar things to what you would do if with redux in React. Creating derived state that you can consume in your component is one of the things that is possible but it's not possible consistently across all frameworks. That's just one of the things. CHARLES: I agree. I think that was one of the things that drew me to Ember at first coming from Backbone as I did and honestly, from the models in Java was that, in order to compute anything, you had to install a listener and then eagerly make that computation and store it somewhere, where as those frameworks, it made you feel effortless where you can just decorate some state and derive it and the information is there, the computation is there when you need to reach for it but you don't have to do expend any extra effort aside from say, "This state is derived off this other state." I think another case that I came across was immutability. Immutability is a means but the end is to have consistency inside your application. I first really started running up against this when I was working with forms and since then, I've realized that actually, a lot of the pain that I was feeling was because things were not being immutable but this is where the fact that things weren't immutable ended up causing me a lot of pain and headaches and I was having the code into being a lot more complex. Essentially, when I wanted to make something transactional if you're editing a form or something like that, then you need to essentially store off a copy of your current state. If you're editing some object, I want to say, open up a dialogue and I'm going to edit it and then I'm going to commit the changes back to that dialogue. What I'm modeling there is a transaction so I kind of need to shave off a copy or make a Xerox copy of the object and then make the changes inside to that object and then somehow, try and merge those changes upstream and then, get them back into the main lines. Really, like a very Git-like operation. It wasn't just at the object level. When you're doing things like dirty checking, you need to make what is the original value of a field versus what does the input currently have. I might be doing any number of transformations in between the actual physical representation of the field, maybe it's a date but the user interacts with it in as a string, so there has to be this kind of parsing serialize thing sitting in between that value and you need to basically, keep a copy of that field as a mini transaction within your macro transaction because you want to say like, "Is it dirty? is it really the same object?" because if you can just do an object comparison, you have to get into all that hairy like equality checking and it gets really complex really fast but it turns out that a very clean solution to this is if you just never actually make the changes in place and whenever you are making changes, you're generating new information without destroying the old information because when a form is the case where we really come up against this, where we're modeling the same object over time, so a form explicitly models the change of an object. Change is part of what it is and so, the definition of change is being able to compare something in its prior state to be able to compare it to its current state. If you're making that change by destroying the prior state, then you're going to run into a lot of trouble. It just turns out that when you're working with forms and it turns out there are a lot of use cases like this but this was the one where I first really just couldn't even... Without immutability, you want to model your change as always rolling forward and not ever destroying prior states but being able to pick and choose and can always be able to look back to where you were and compare where you are now to where you were. That's where immutability comes when you're modeling change. It's actually much easier to model change when you have explicit states that represents what was and what is. But when you start doing that, then things get a little bit messy. You have to do the compromise. There's a tradeoff, like when I say, "Set this property on this object," that is easy and that's something that I think that we can all understand. We're not idiots. That's why immutable models are very conceptually easy to grasp, to wrap your head around. If I'm modeling myself and I'm saying, "Set hand position two feet up in the air and now I'm raising my hand." That's easy to understand and it turns out that when you're changing a data structure immutably, then you have to, for example model a simple set operation as duplicate and swap. Or if say like you're swapping out one property in an array, you actually model that as a map, where you swap out the one element at that index, rather than just saying, "Just set the thing at that index," or if I'm changing a property of an object, I want to copy over all the fields except for that one which I'm going to change. If you start to do that then, you realize the benefit of always being able to look backwards but you've now introduced overhead and complexity in your code, so you've made a tradeoff. I think that's a lot of people look at saying, "I want this to be immutable," then they actually have to come to the grips with the complexity that's going to introduce. There are libraries like Immutable.js that do make that a lot better but even they have the problems. I can talk about those but one of the cases is like being able to reason about a series of states for your object, rather than just only having one copy of it ever and being stuck with having to deal with it as it is. DAVID: Yeah and I think that really important too is being able to mentally track where you've been because in my experience on other large Ember applications, I've run into so many different bugs that I could really track down to people or rather, places in the code where things are just reaching in and mutating your model, where it wouldn't make sense, so as you're writing your code, you're in a completely different state than you might have expected. CHARLES: Yes and it's easy, right? But essentially, when you have some model, you've basically got a global object. There's a lot of recomputations that needs to happen when those things change. As a result, if you look at the actual code that supports computer properties in Ember and I'm sure other frameworks as well, some of the most hairy and complex. If you look at the chain watchers and the chain nodes and all the stuff that's required to support things like computer properties, it's amazing that it works as well as it does. I've tried to actually open that up and understand that code on a number of occasions and every single time, I had to walk away in defeat. TARAS: This problem exists in React applications and Angular applications because if you think of the challenges of working with set state, I think one of the problems with working with set state in React is that your complexity increases very quickly. It starts off kind of simple when you're using immutability with set state in React. They're kind of very light and then, as you start to add features, your complexity starts to grow very quickly in a way that you really start to run into limitations. You start to confront your personal limitations of your abilities to work with immutability, so you're limited to doing immutable structures that only a few levels deep because your ability to use destructuring to create new immutable object is limited by expressiveness of JavaScript. It's gotten a lot better with the destructuring but if you do it a few levels deep, I think everybody's familiar with what happens. It starts to get really hairy. You kind of loose track of where you are. CHARLES: Yeah. The signal-to-noise ratio increases because after probably, two or three levels, the majority of your code has to do with destructuring and restructuring and very little of the actual change that you want to make. TARAS: And this is kind of interesting because people talk about declarativeness versus imperativeness but at certain point when you have a complex immutable state change, if you're doing with destructuring your code, even though it looks declarative but there is so much processing that you're doing, it's actually kind of losing the benefit of its declarativeness. It's actually starts to look more like imperative code than it does what you would expect a declarative system to look like. I think this touches on the other aspect. It kind of compromise that when you work immutably, when it compromises, you make a serialization. Your ability to represent your state as a POJO becomes restricted by the fact that you have this complex system that's wired together and you have systems like zones in Angular and in Ember Object that are able to keep track of changes in these objects but you don't have a way to restore those objects. You don't have a way to do more sophisticated things that you might want to do, especially in situations where if a service feeding you, what do UIs going to look like. In that situation, it's really helpful to be able to say, "Here's a POJO that I got from the server. I'm going to use this POJO to build this component tree that the user is going to interact with and then, as the user interacts with it, I'm going to then, capture that state, serialize it and put it back in the server." When you're using something like Ember Object or if you're doing this kind of stuff in Angular or even if you're doing this stuff with React but without using something like redux, you essentially end up doing so much wiring to accomplish that. By the time you finished writing your application, you've written a ton of code just to handle this particular use case and if you have to do this again in another application, you just rewritten that kind of code in a new application as well. CHARLES: It reminds me of the concept of a Smalltalk image, like there's no way to really get at the state of a Smalltalk thing. It's almost like you're dealing in docker containers and not actually being able to write that state down into JSON or something like that. I'm trying to casting about for an appropriate analogy. Maybe that's not a good one but what's actually happening cannot be made orthogonal. It can only exist in that one run time that you're currently running. If something wrong manifests itself, reproducing it can be extraordinarily difficult, right? TARAS: Yeah. CHARLES: Imagine if there's some render cycle that's making a bunch of mutations and there's this process that you stood up and it runs in completion, some signal comes in and those effects are like ripple through the system, there's no way at any point to have any other representation of that system than the running system itself. TARAS: There's another element to this, which I find really interesting. When you're thinking about how to architect complex UIs, it's actually helpful to get really clear about what kind of changes are happening. A lot of times when I want to see beginners are writing, especially if you task someone who is a fairly junior at building a single page applications, a lot of times what will happen is because they don't have a clear mental model of what is going on in regards to state. They end up setting a lot of properties. Every operation, every time you have an event handler because they don't have a clear model of what's going on, they end up setting like five or six or seven properties. That kind of signals that they don't have a clear picture but what that also does is a lot of times, they usually comes together with cascading state changes. Usually they're not representing a single operation as a single state change because there might actually be a bunch of things that are happening because what they're doing is they're massaging the system into submission. Not like they're not in control of the state transitions, so they use, essentially time and their dedication to kind of sort it out and make it work and eventually, would that ends up looking like that if it works for most of the cases that they are able to test for or that they able to manually see. But then they AR, not accounting for problems that they're not able to understand right now, they become discovered by users when users start to interact with the system and with the components or with that application and the application is there to get into some funky states. The tools that we have, they don't prevent that from happening. They just -- CHARLES: Right. They don't force you. I think what you're saying is that ideally, you want to model your UI as a set of transactions on your state, that you want transactionality to your state so that I basically am saying, "I'm not going around and setting seven properties in reaction to this one event." I'm saying, "This event triggers this transaction and that transaction clearly bundles up every single operation that needs to happen and the tools don't enforce that." Is that a fair --? TARAS: Yeah and then, the problem is we're working with component trees. You start off with having a set of requirements and over time, the requirements change. As the business unit understands your application better, they give you more direction of how accounting should work and then you find out that there's more interconnect at stake but then what's happening now is that the cost of refactoring those state that spread throughout the components, whether that be with set state, whether that be with the actions in Ember or even in Angular. What you end up doing is you start to change the system but change is not trivial because the actual process of changing where that state lives is not linear. It depends on the complexity of the code that you wrote and it just gets really hairy very quickly. That's where companies end up losing a lot of time. A developer could start off with a requirement, you build something and then a new requirement comes in and instead of it being a simple change, it turns into a week or two weeks refactor because you now understand the state ownership should be different. The state that you have should be in a different place. You have to manually make that change. You have no obstruction to help you express that in an easy way. CHARLES: Another thing, because we are doing a kind of a roundup of all the things that you need to account for when you actually embark on managing your state. Another is actually constraining the amount of computation that happens. If your system is based on listeners and large chain reactions of things where it's like, "This property changes so I need to notify these other 10 dependent properties that change." You can do a lot of unnecessary computation, especially if nobody is going to render. That's kind of the thing that you have to do if you're going to be immutable. You have to eagerly walk those change to see which objects are affected so that you can then invalidate those caches. A system like Ember Object, I don't know exactly how Vue works, it mitigates this somewhat by the fact that the computer properties are lazy but you still have to walk all of those chains. That can actually get out of hand. They're eager, not lazy. Then the other concern that you have, where you normally have to make a trade off around is around composability. One of the things that's really nice about immutable systems is they're very composable. If I've got some object that does one thing, I can then just set that object onto another object just by mutating one of its properties and I've effectively composed them. I can then install listeners onto that thing or I can compute properties off of that property and they can post pretty well. That's something that you get but then of course, you're losing all of the benefits of immutability, so things like Immutable.js don't really compose very well or redux doesn't really compose very well. The concept of taking a redux store and embedding it into another redux store, you just don't see that. I would never distribute and I think ultimately, the litmus test there is would I be able to share it on something like npm. Nobody shares an npm package that's just a redux store that you can dispatch actions to and observe and use it with your other redux stores. When it comes to a system like Immutable.js, that does make transitions a little bit easier over lists and arrays and maps but you still run into the exact same set of problems that you have when you have lists of maps of records and you don't really get any help there, so you have to make this tradeoff between immutability and composability, whereas a system like MobX or Ember object actually quite composable. Before we start talking about microstates, I want to say that you just throw those in there because there is just a lot of concerns out there, a lot of edge cases that actually build up but through the course of a real application, you will encounter them all. You might be making tradeoffs at the beginning that you're not realizing that you're going to need or are going to get you into trouble later on. DAVID: This actually happens in the Angular community as well because there's something really great that's happening with observables in the Angular community. I think everyone's embracing them wholeheartedly and I think that's really been pretty great to see but observable streams of composable, but objects that have on them observable stream providers of some kind, like if you have something that you can subscribe to and that is part of a property in a class, composing multiple classes together and consuming properties from those classes, there is no mechanism for composing that. That kind of composition has to be done manually. Again, you're kind of manually wiring together a bunch of objects and the big challenge is that you are manually subscribing to all those streams and unlike what you have with components. Components have lifecycle hooks. When your components is being torn down, you know you can perform some operations. If you need to remove an event listener, you have a hook where you can do that when you have a class instances like JavaScript class instances that have on them properties that have observables that you subscribe to. There are no tear down hooks for class instances, so there are no obstructions from managing unsubscribing from those streams. You essentially end up having the foundation that you can use to build complex reactive systems and you can subscribe in there really fast but wiring those things together at a bigger scale is simply not there. It's something that you have to create and enforce yourself. CHARLES: Right and I think that's probably a perfect segue into talking about microstates, which is the project that we've been alluding to for the past 30 minutes, that is I think in attempts to solve these problems and make sure that you don't actually have to compromise on those things, so you can reason about things locally but have those things be composed into a greater state. But also have them be immutable so that you can look at past states and reason over a data structure over time as opposed to just in one instance. Also, have an intuitive interface that when you're making these changes, doesn't look like half of your code is unpacking some data structure, flipping some bit in it and then repackaging it back up again. That's the context. Should we start talking about what microstates is and how it addresses those? TARAS: That's a good next step and when I start working in the ReadMe, I end up actually, I think I wrote about 40 pages. One thing that's interesting about microstates is that and this was part of the design of microstates from the work that we've done is that we intentionally wanted to make the number of ideas that you haven't microstates very little, so when you use microstates, the number of concepts that you need to remember in your mind is very few. It is a conceptually a different way of thinking about organizing your state in the same way that shifting from managing DOM elements directly to having an obstruction like component that declaratively applies changes to your DOM tree. In a same way, microstates is kind of an abstraction that allows you to declaratively describe how your state will change and it will manage the transitions for you and allows you to give the state transitions names and it allows you to give your states names as well, so you can actually name things. You don't get a POJO that has a shape but has no name. You actually get to give things names. CHARLES: So, why don't we start? I have a list in my mind. I should probably write it down of the things that we just talked about but I think the things that we talked about are ease of representation, like conceptually easy, transactional, basically serializable and immutable, lazy and composable. Those are like five or six things. But I think there are kind of aligning principle around which we gathers that the state management should feel easy. It should feel fun. One of the things that is awesome about working with components, whether you're using web components or React components or Ember components is when you get it right, you're just snapping these things to feel together and it feels great. It's like I'm just passing properties and render blocks down the tree and the framework is just doing all of the grunt work for me and I'm just operating at a very high level. That's what organizing principle with microstates as it needs to feel easy. Maybe we should start there and just say, how does that easy and fun line up with each one of those kind of unique problems around which we typically have to make tradeoffs? We could start with the interface of making a change. TARAS: I'll go back to the starting point. I remember what got me first interested in microstates is Charles, when you said that, when you have a number, there are certain operations that a number can do. We really don't need to be writing an increment operation for every... Like if you a have a number, you can increment it and decrement it. CHARLES: Honestly, every time I see state management tutorial and they tell you how to increment and decrement a number with it and you write the increment code and you track the thing and you store it back into the store, at this point I'm still annoyed with those tutorials because I'm like, "It's a number. We know we can increment it. Just show me where to plug in the code. I should not have to be writing an increment method." TARAS: Yes. And that's the kind of starting point. There are certain operations that you can perform with the primitive types. If you need to add a number or if you increment a number, we already know how to increment the number. It's part of microstates. But that in itself is nice but that's not that important. I think what's really important is that when you need to put a number into another data structure, let's say you have a nap and you're like, "I need to..." I don't know -- CHARLES: Let's say, like a click tracker that has a number of clicks. TARAS: Right. By itself, you can increment the click tracker but if you need to put a quick tracker into another app, essentially you can compose it in and you don't need to figure out how to wire the actual mechanism of how to make sure that you can update the property, like it's part of another class, for example, you don't need the way you would increment the number. When it's a part of another class versus how you would do it when you're working with it by itself is an approximately the same. The amount of work that you need to do to actually perform that operation is the same. Your complexity doesn't increase as you compose one data structure into another. CHARLES: Right. You can just say, "This is an app. It's got a click tracker and this property is a click tracker and I have to do nothing else. I can register clicks on that thing. It doesn't increase the complexity of application at all." TARAS: There's no wiring. Now, you added some new state, that state is very explicit and it's really clear that it is not impacting other parts of the state. You can operate with this thing. If you change it, it's going to work properly with all the other things that are in the type that you are adding this counter to. Those things are just going to fit well together and it's not going to break if you need to transition one more thing. All of the other transitions will work the same way. I think that kind of consistency is really meaningful, over time especially when you start to increase the amount of state that you manage in your application. CHARLES: Just the ability to work with types and just have kind of those implicit operations and have those things compose, kind of indefinitely. Moving down, we talked about easy and the other thing I would put on that is that the way in which you express those transitions, for example if microstates comes bundled with numbers and Booleans and strings and arrays and objects and kind of the stable of types that you would expect in any JavaScript application but those types are expressed using this way for expressing types, essentially. When you actually do make a transition, it feels very object-oriented, I would say, even though it's not. It feels like you're mutating but you're actually doing a transition. Does that make sense? TARAS: I think for anyone who is familiar with what it's like to write queries for GraphQL, if you're not familiar with it, it's fine. You can get a sense of that from microstates but if you're familiar with the ease of just writing a query and if your backend knows how to retrieve the data, then your queries will just give you the data that you want. That feeling is really powerful and just being able to write the query and just gives you what you want. Microstates is kind of like that. Actually, the inspiration came from experiences with GraphQL, which is that sense of ease is what we wanted to have in microstates and so you get that seems sense of like, "I can just do what I want and it just going to work and with this other thing and it just going to work," and you're just like flying through, like adding states to your application and it's just working for you and working for you and working for you and you don't have to do monkey work like gluing things together. It'll change how you are working before because you have a way of opt working with these things at a higher level. CHARLES: Right. Let's talk about transactionally or should we talk about immutability? How does this make immutability easy and fun? TARAS: I think one thing is that you don't have to write reducers and you don't have to do destructuring by hand. I think you have a way of expressing. Thinking about this, if you have a component tree and let's say you have redux and then a bunch of components like your parent component, your root component has some state using sets date and then components further down the tree also have state. You could actually express that as a microstate. What you would do is, essentially the parent component state would be the root and then the children's component states would be composed into it. The nice things about doing that is that at the root level, you have access to transition state of the children declaratively. You know where the states for those children is on the route type and you can write transitions that are going to declaratively perform multiple operations on the children state and I suppose it'll restructure to what happens with components but if you don't use this, you might have multiple sets date operations. The process of wiring data from the root down to the children is kind of complicated, where here, you have a way to represent that and perform a lot of transitions in the way that is going to be just easy at whatever level you need to operate at. CHARLES: Right. I think, for people familiar with redux, in redux you act globally and then you react locally, if that makes sense, so you dispatch an action to the entire store and every single reducer can see that action. There's ways to manage that but effectively, you have this one atom and then you have the reducers that kind of act on local state, whereas with microstates, you're basically acting locally. You're reacting locally but the effect is global. TARAS: You're participating globally. CHARLES: Yeah, participating globally but you never have to consider the context that is above your own, so you never have to be mindful or cognizant of the context in which you're enclosed because from your perspective, it just doesn't exist. DAVID: Every microstate has a set transition which is the basic transition that you can invoke, essentially in any type, so what's interesting is that it's amazing how powerful -- CHARLES: So, we should break it down really simple. Basically, when you create a microstate, with a type, you say like, "I want to create a number with the value five," and then I can just say, "That returns a microstate," and I can say, "microstate.set 10," and that will return a new microstate who's also a number but the value is 10 and that's available on all microstates. DAVID: Yes. If you have a tree of components and your state is presented by a microstate at the root level, then what you can do is you can invoke the transitions on any part of the microstate and it will just know how to properly create the next microstate for you. The example that Charles you gave of one number so that number can be inside of a class that represents state for a particular component and then that can be a part of another class or represents a state for another component but then, when you invoke a transition on one of the leaf nodes, an equal sets state on one of the leaf nodes or equal set on one leaf nodes, it will respond locally but it will actually reflect the changes globally. At the root level you're going to get a new object that causes the components to update. CHARLES: You know what? I have another concern that actually just popped into my head, which is something that I've certainly struggled with in every single application of notable complexity is stability of value. We should put that on the list. We're almost out of time to talk about this. We spend too much time... Well, not too much time, of the issues of state management, which I think you can't spend enough time talking about but I did want to pile one more on there is when you're making that transition, where you're acting locally but you're participating globally. For things that are unaffected by your action, remain unchanged. That is a super power. It's actually very hard to do with a lot of state management, especially when you're cloning a bunch of stuff, being very judicious about what you don't want to clone. Where this really comes into play is if I want to re-render something. A lot of times you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to tell, did my model really change or did only referentially change? With microstates, when you make that local change, if you're embedded in a very large graph of objects, obviously all of the objects above you are going to be changed but what about things that are off to the side of your siblings. They're outside of that scope of that change. They shouldn't be cloned. They shouldn't be copied over. They should remain the same. If you're doing a re-rendering based on the changes that are happening, that's going to be a key feature because you're not going to have to write, basically any hooks to say, should I have to re-render my component. You can always rely on triple equals. DAVID: This quality is going to describe the structural sharing and some of the other tools that are available but I think that's how it's accomplished. I think one thing that's a little bit different with microstates is that when it comes to structural sharing, it's not that difficult to do if you just do structural sharing and value. Meaning that you can do structural sharing on a value using something like lenses and not a lot of people are familiar with lenses in JavaScript but it's actually only three functions that you can use and it can give structural sharing on complex POJOs. It's pretty easy to use relative to how little people know about it but what that doesn't do is it doesn't allow you to graph of objects that have their own operation that you can invoke and that will perform structural sharing. That part, I know that is not available in any solution, I think at the level of completeness and luxury that microstate provides when you write things. CHARLES: Right because every piece of the tree kind of comes bundled with its own things that you can do with it. DAVID: I don't think you should jam everything into this podcast because there's a lot to talk about it. I think one of the things and we've talked about this a lot, which what we want to do is create an implementation for an idea of what it would look like. What would it be like if we had a composable state primitive that we could use to describe state and share state solutions in the same way that we share components like react-virtualized or whatever your particular frameworks or popular component may be. What it would look like if we had solutions to state problems that we could share and we could -- CHARLES: I think the litmus test of an awesome solution is like you look at this current crop of MVC frameworks and what's so awesome about it is they're sharing. That can happen, right? If I'm writing a React component, I can publish it on npm and other people can use it. If I have an Ember add-on, I can publish it and people can use it. They can consume those components. That's awesome and I think it's the hallmark of a great system. What would it look like if I wrote just the state piece of a file upload and I could publish it npm and then anybody, in any framework, could actually use it with their framework without paying any penalty. What would it look like if there was some transactional data store that could be built and shared and the hooks into any framework were minimal. The possibilities are really exciting around that idea, whether it is realizes microstates or not. But clearly, we feel this is something you should be able to do. DAVID: I'll add one more use kind of use case that I personally find really motivating is that there's a lot of companies that are investing into building single page applications and a lot of times, what you see happening is they're building a very similar application to what they had before because their business hasn't changed. The technology has moved on so solutions have improved. The demands for better user experience have increased but the actual business and how the things that people have to do on day to day within their company hasn't changed. What we're seeing right now is we're seeing the same, like whatever was written before in jQuery or an AngularJS is now being rewritten in React or Angular or whatever you might Choose. But whatever you like to see is it has a situation where the domain specific logic of your business is represented as a data structure that knows how to, potentially, in the future talk to the server and retrieve data from the API because that's likely not going to change. But you can use that like that's been tested and published as an npm module within your enterprise and then you can then consumed that in any framework and it's actually easier to do it this way, than to implement it in a framework-specific version of their state management. That's the part that I find the most exciting. I think one of the things, just to connect to the goal is that, we would like to keep this conversation going. If you're interested and I think this is a kind of a call to our audience that if you're interested in this, we would love to have in our podcast to talk about these things because I think there's a lot of things that microstates really is a beginning of a conversation. It's not meant to be a statement. It's meant to be a proposal that we can just talk about this. CHARLES: I agree and that's one of the reasons we're keeping it very small at this point. The core library of microstates is not setting out to accomplish too much. In the core library, there aren't even any side effects. It's actually impossible to have side effects. It means that it cannot be used for anything except for the model but that's very liberating and it let us focus on what would a system like this actually look like. DAVID: It's really exciting because this has been the biggest metric but we have microstates in the JavaScript weekly and that was great and then it got circled around when people know and it's like 800 stars now, which is not a really big deal. It's funny because somebody commented like, "How can you put something in production that only had 100 stars?" CHARLES: I think it's just important to realize that this really is the beginning of a conversation. There's a really exciting set of things to come. We haven't even talked about how we're going to model side effects, although we're going to use microstates to do it. We haven't even talked about what the various framework integrations will look like and what are the best practices for using this to organize state in your application. We've had some lively discussions internally about what that looks like. There's still a lot of questions but it's going to be a really, really exciting and edifying experience to get to answer them. DAVID: Yeah, it's pretty exciting. I'm excited too. There's been a lot of interest from people in microstates, so it's going to really great. I'm looking forward to meeting people and having conversations about how we can use microstates because I'd love to have someone create a really great solution that I could just take off the shelf and just use and not have to implement them myself. CHARLES: All right. Well, I think we could talk about microstates for at least the next three hours but we have to give everybody an opportunity to, at least like go to the bathroom or something. Microstates will return but if you're interested in learning more about microstates and you happen to be in one of the many places on which we're going to be presenting on microstates in the future, who knows? Maybe you can come in and join the conversation in person. Taras is going to be speaking at Toronto.js on July 30th. He's also going to be presenting at Manhattan.js on August 8th and then, yours truly will be presenting on microstates at React.js Austin on the 6th of August. Come out and see us. We'll drop those in the show notes and it's guaranteed to be a good time and we'll have that conversation. Until then, we are the Frontside. We lead with the why, the how and then the what, if you're interested in working with us and that helps us that we guarantee the lowest total cost of ownership for your application. We're always looking for feedback. If you have news items that you'd like to see at the head of the show or just any feedback or questions, we would be happy to answer them. Thanks today to Mandy Moore for producing our show and next time, we'll be talking with Kristian Freeman about what it's like to run an online conference with Twitch, so I'll be looking forward to that. Bye David. Bye Taras. DAVID: Yeah, thanks for having us. TARAS: Bye. CHARLES: Yup, and bye everybody. See you next time. Next Time: Running An Online-Only, Free Conference on Twitch with Kristian Freeman

David and Blair compare each other's competitiveness, and then offer some specific ways principals can actually collaborate with their competitors as a part of building beneficial business relationships.   TRANSCRIPT BLAIR: David, today we're going to talk about how to crush your competition, is that right? DAVID: Instantly I got very excited about the concept, that's really not what we're going to talk about, but I love that idea. Oh my God, I'm just too competitive, but that's actually the opposite of what we're going to talk about I think, unless you want to switch it at the last minute. BLAIR: No, I was with a bunch of guys the other night, and had this little men's night retreat thing, and maybe more than half of them were entrepreneurs. One guy was winding down a business, and he was saying, "I'm not sure if I'm competitive enough to be in business." I didn't say anything, but I thought, I suppose that's vital for you to be competitive in your nature to succeed in business, would you agree with that? DAVID: Yes, I would, but there's something wrapped around competitiveness that is just as important to me, and that's risk-taking. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: It does seem like the two of those are related, that's why I quit doing a few things outside of work, because I realized I was not as competitive as some of the young fools that were willing to sacrifice their body, and I wasn't. It's not that my body is so precious, it shouldn't be sacrificed, it was more I was allergic to the pain. Yeah, there's something about competitiveness and risk-taking yeah, for sure. I'm competitive, do you think of yourself as competitive? BLAIR: I've measured my competitiveness and your competitiveness, and you're more competitive than I am. I'm as competitive as the average person, but the makeup of that competitiveness is a little bit skewed. You can break down competitiveness into different forms, so I think of myself as average competitiveness. DAVID: Okay, this is more about how do we tame or tamp down some of our competitiveness for our advantage, and for the advantage of the world really. BLAIR: You really want to talk about this idea of collaborating with your competitors, is that correct? DAVID: Right, yeah, and it's something I've learned in my own business life, but I've also tried to coach my clients to do it as well. It's been really interesting, it's a concept that strikes us like, did he really just say you should be more collaborative with your competitors, or did I mishear him? No, that's really what I mean. BLAIR: Okay, so we think of being in business just like my friend said the other night, we think of it as business is highly competitive, and we need to be cutthroat, and we need to always have an eye on our competition. We're trying to best them, I'm fond of saying that positioning is an act of relativity. You position relative to your competition, and in endeavoring to position your firm against your competition, you're trying to kill them. BLAIR: Now that's an overstatement, but that's the prevailing view, right? The competitors are there, people that ... It's your job to beat, it's your job to win against them, and you want to fly in the face of that a little bit, so where did this idea come from? DAVID: Well it's been rooted really in 20 plus years. I did something a little crazy back in the late 90s. I wanted to start an event, and that was obvious to me, I wanted to start an event. Okay, so what kind of an event would it be? Well it needs to be an event that's going to attract a lot of people. How do we do that? Well, the content has to be fantastic, it's like okay, then I just stopped in my tracks, because I'm thinking, well if the content's going to be great, then I've got to invite a lot of my competitors there. DAVID: We don't see eye to eye on everything, but I need to have them there, because they're very smart. People are going to come and want to hear from them as well, like what kind of a stupid conference would it be where I'm the only one speaking? That's not a conference, that's like your own personal platform. I was faced with a decision, do I really want to give my competitors a platform? DAVID: I was nervous about it, other people were a lot more nervous about it than I was, they thought I was crazy to be doing that. I thought, this is a worthwhile experiment, and maybe there's some value in being the person who organizes the conference, and does the programming for it. There turned out to be that value, but it was a wonderful experience. It opened up my eyes entirely to the fact that I don't have to make somebody else lose in order for me to win. DAVID: That I can let my guard down, and it actually translated into the way I run events now. People come to an event for the first time, and they're surprised that within about an hour, an hour and a half of the start of the event, people are starting to share stuff that they would not have thought they'd see themselves sharing at the beginning. They're much more transparent about it, and it's just sort of that style that I like to have, it fits with this notion of competitors. DAVID: Recently what struck me, and then I'll shut up for a minute, because I know I'm taking a long time to answer your question. I was listening to the Dan Patrick daily talk radio sports show, and he was talking about interviewing Kobe Bryant one time. They were talking about how do you get yourself up for a game that doesn't really matter? In other words, maybe you're out of the playoffs already, or you know you're going to beat this team, because they're not good. DAVID: What Kobe Bryant said, was at the end of the game, I want my competitor to question why they even got into the sports game. I want them to question why they even became a basketball player, right? I thought, well that's kind of funny, but it's really not the kind of spirit I want as a collaborator. BLAIR: Even when he's playing in a game that they're almost certain to win in, he's still thinking about crushing the spirit of his competitors. DAVID: Right, yeah, what's the point of that? BLAIR: Do you still have a page on your website that lists your competitors? DAVID: I do, right? I do. BLAIR: Am I on there? DAVID: I don't know, I know you don't want to be, so let's just say you're not. BLAIR: Yeah, I think you had me on there, and I called you out, I said, get me off that list. DAVID: Right. BLAIR: I don't know why that is, okay, so you conceived of this idea, this event, and you had a partner in this event, can we name the event? DAVID: Yeah, it's MYOB, Mind Your Own Business. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: The how people, were the financial partners and the marketing partners, and I did the programming. BLAIR: That's where you and I first met in 2003. I reached out to you when I started my business somewhere in 2002, and you invited me to speak at this thing. DAVID: Yeah, and look at how much good has come from that, right? BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: You and I have become friends, we do a podcast together, we share a lot of clients. Here's the biggest thing, I learned so much by having you there. I mean the very first time I heard you speak, I learned so much. It made me such a better advisor, and the same could be said of the other folks, not everybody, but most of the other folks that I invited. It's like, oh wow, it made me a much better advisor by listening to them in that kind of a setting. BLAIR: Let's walk through how somebody can, once they get their head around this idea, how they can put it into practice. First, I can imagine what the objections are, right? When you're talking to somebody about this idea of be more open to your competitors and collaborative with them, what's the first thing that comes up objection wise? DAVID: Well it comes up a lot too, and it's like, "Oh, that's a good idea, but I can't put that on my website, because what if my competitor's see it?" It may be something like our new focus, that's usually not as big an issue, but things like client criteria, or some unique way we have of going about solving problems for clients, or a case study, or something like that. They envision these competitors in the wee hours of the morning sneaking onto their website and furiously copping things down and grabbing screenshots, and then reinventing their own firm, as if they're really doing that. DAVID: That's the objection, I don't want my competitors to see that. I don't want them to copy me. Do you hear that, or do you see it in other ways? I'm curious if it's just my clients. BLAIR: I'm not sure if I hear it a lot, but I sense it a lot, and I've experienced it myself too. My own experience has been, if you're really carving out a path of leadership in something, it means you're constantly, by the reinventing your business, or coming up with new IP, with new ideas, and by the time somebody's adopted something that you've ... Let's call it stolen, stolen something that you've put on your website and made it their own, you should be somewhere else, right? You should be off into the distance. DAVID: Right, and that's part of your practice, part of my practice, part of what we urge clients to do is to reinvent themselves frequently every couple of years maybe. While this may work beautifully for you now, it's not going to be the thing that you're doing down the road, reinventing. Let's talk about the whole positioning thing, how many competitors does Win Without Pitching have? BLAIR: It really depends on how you frame the question. If you look at sales training for creative professionals, I don't actually know of any other organization that frames their value proposition, the discipline in the market, the combination of discipline in the market that way. That would be ridiculous for me to say there's no direct competitor, so that's at the very narrowest, who else says we just do sales training for creative professionals? DAVID: Right. BLAIR: Our real competition is any new business consultant to the creative professions. DAVID: Right. BLAIR: Anybody who's selling sales training. Most sales trainers aren't specific to a market, so anybody in the sales training business, any new business consultant. DAVID: If somebody popped up, let's say you just heard through a client of yours or something, and they said, "Hey, have you seen [inaudible 00:09:14], it looks a lot like yours?" Pretend that you have this conversation with them, and you look at the website. It is the same positioning, sales training for creative professionals, or creative entrepreneurs, what would your reaction be? BLAIR: My reaction would be, I would gird myself for a fight in the most positive sort of way. I love a challenge, if somebody was using that same language, I would just steel myself and whip my team into a frenzy, and run out into the battlefield. DAVID: I'm picturing this movie scene, yelling to this guy. BLAIR: Yeah, Braveheart. DAVID: Right. BLAIR: Somebody would have to be using very specific language, very specific to me. One of the things that I've seen over the last few years, is when I started my business back in 2002, when I was a new business consultant, there were very few new business consultants. Whoever was out there, the Internet was still a relatively new thing, right? Web browsers were about seven or eight years old in 2002. BLAIR: If there was a lot of competitors out there, I wasn't aware of them, I was really aware of two or three. Nowadays there's rarely a week or a two week period that goes by where I'm not made aware of a new business consultant. I made this conscious decision a couple of years ago to just quit thinking about them as competitors, and just to think about them as my future distribution network. BLAIR: I recently put out a call on LinkedIn saying I want to forge a closer relationship with the world's best new business consultants. I know I met a lot of consultants out there who say, "I give your book, the Win Without Pitching Manifesto to all of my clients." What I said in this post on LinkedIn, I had about 30 inquiries from it, is if you're already preaching the principles, and if you're already teaching the Win Without Pitching way, and you're interested in formalizing the relationship, then reach out to me. BLAIR: I had to see somebody else doing that, and somebody else talk about the benefit of it just the way that you're doing it now. DAVID: Yeah. BLAIR: For me to just have this switch in my mind. You've been very good at this, and you've been a very good role model for me in this, in being a generous competitor, and it hasn't been in my nature. I'm the person who loves a fight, so something has shifted in me in the last couple of years, and I look around at the people I know in business, and some people that you and I both compete with. They are such open, generous, sharing people, even though we are fairly direct competitors. DAVID: Right. BLAIR: I've just decided that these are going to be my role models in that front too. Now, I'm mellowing in my old age or something, because something's definitely changed. DAVID: Yeah, it is really interesting to see. I'm doing an event shortly, and I've invited ... You'll be speaking there, it's really important to me that you speak there to address the whole sales training process. I'm just unqualified to even speak to it, but I feel like the people coming need to hear that. Then, I think four of my competitors will be there. They won't have a platform, but I will introduce them, they're coming for free. DAVID: I invited them, and I plan to put in the work. We're going to split up into groups, and we're going to try to apply these positioning principles to the individual firms. These competitors know what they're doing, and so the evil side of somebody might hear that and say, "Well, wouldn't someone just hire one of these." It's like, well that's fine, because in my mind feeling like you have all these competitors is really misunderstanding the fact that it's not just about what you do, but it's about how you do it. DAVID: I have a very specific style, and whenever I try to cross the line and be somebody that I'm not to a client, like more of a coach or something like that, I am doing a disservice to them, and I'm doing a disservice to me. I find it really wonderful to have these other folks who are very good at what they do, who have a more appropriate style for a certain client. When I think about living in a world where I couldn't recommend other options for my clients, it's a little bit sadder to me, because I do want my clients to get help, even if it's not with me. DAVID: Now what's interesting though, is we have different approaches to this when we're not as busy. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: We tend to be a little bit less generous when our businesses aren't run well, when we don't have a steady stream of opportunity. That's just another argument of 100 arguments to run your firm well, so that you're not paralyzed by not enough work, or thinner margins, or something like that.   BLAIR: I was going to play devils advocate here a little bit, and push back and say, well it's easy for you to be magnanimous this way, you're the worldwide leader in your field. You've got all the work you want, I think most people from the outside looking in would see that, so it's easy for you to just say, "Well there's plenty for everyone." If you're running an independent creative firm, you've got a dozen people, you're not seen as meaningfully different, do you think the principle still applies? DAVID: No, I don't, and I think the solution there is to have a positioning where it's so much clearer to you and to your prospects where you're a perfect fit. If you haven't nailed that positioning equation yet for your firm, then I think this is a very dangerous thing to do, right? Now you could still be generous in some other ways, like you could be generous in sharing contractors with other agencies, or even some employees. In terms of clients, I think that would be a dangerous thing to do, if you haven't ... DAVID: Well, a couple of things, not just positioning, but also having this lead generation process in place. You and I have talked quite a bit about this, how we have a simplified plan that's driven by discipline, so if you don't have the positioning and lead generation in place, then it's a pretty dangerous thing to be this magnanimous. The way to fix that is not to be selfish, the way to fix this is to fix your positioning and lead generation. BLAIR: Do you find that your generosity towards your competitors is returned? Are you referred business or other similar invitations from these competitors? DAVID: In some cases I am for sure. I think about Tim Williams for instance who I think does really good work. I've sent work his way, he's sent work my way for sure. I think about Carl Sachs, I think about the folks at Newfangled. I think about Philip at the Consulting Pipeline podcast. I think about Drew McClellan, I hate mentioning names, because there's going to be a bunch of names I've left off, but in general yes, absolutely. DAVID: Even at the beginning where they're taken aback by the generosity, they'll soften up over a few years, and discover that it's real. I'm really trying to help them, I'm not trying to hurt them. That started years ago, like you write a new book, or you have a new program, tell all your competitors about it in a gracious, respectful way. Hey, this is where I'm headed, just want to let you know, and oh by the way, here's a copy of the book, hope you're doing well. DAVID: You see an article that's really helpful that would benefit them, you send it to them. I tell you, a big one is speaking engagements. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: If I've been on the platform somewhere, and I talk with the program person, I say, "Listen, this was fantastic, I loved this event. I appreciate you inviting me, do you want a couple of suggestions for people who are also would be a really good fit for this?" That's a perfect opportunity to extend that graciousness to one of your competitors. I find that you're not hurting yourself in any way, you're simply helping everybody in the process. DAVID: I've found that to be very effective, and I've had a lot of my competitors do the same for me, where they've introduced me to a speaking opportunity, and it's been very, very much appreciated. BLAIR: A guy I know who does over a million dollars a year in speaking fees said to me, the number one lead source for speaking engagements is other speakers, right? They get approached and say, "Well, I can't do it, but you might want to think of this other person." He said it's important for you to cultivate relationships with these other speakers, and that means you start referring speaking opportunities to them. DAVID: That's interesting. BLAIR: Two weeks later I was invited to speak in Dubai when I was in another part of the world, and I referred to my new friend. DAVID: Yeah, because you didn't want that long travel, yeah, absolutely. BLAIR: Let's talk about some specific ways agency principals can collaborate with their competitors. I think I've got a list here of some things that you've identified. At the top of the list you've got learn how to run your firm from each other. Do you want to unpack ... Oh, I just said the word unpack, do you want to peal that apart? DAVID: That even sounds more pretentious than unpack. BLAIR: Like an orange. DAVID: Let's just say unpack, okay? BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: Yeah, what's the possible benefit in not helping another principal run their firm well? Hoping that they'll fail? Well, that seems pretty evil, right? The one area where it seems like there's the most benefit for everybody, is to learn how to run your business well. You've learned some principles about key metrics you want to look at, or how to hire the right person, or how to run a meeting better, or how to have the best relationship with your bank, or there's 100 things we could list there. DAVID: Those are the kinds of things that I would put at the top the list, because nobody enters this field with the business management training that would really benefit them. They're all starting from some other skill path, not a role path, and so they come into the business, and they have to learn everything either from somebody that they worked for, and often that's the best place to learn it. DAVID: A great example of a principal that you worked for before you started off on your own, or they learn it from maybe an advisor, like a paid advisor, or maybe they learn it from another principal. That would be the first area I would suggest collaboration, it could be informal or formal. I find that most principals have three or four people that they're friendly with, they can just shoot them an email, or get on the phone and say, "Hey, I'm facing this noncompete situation, what have you learned? Can you introduce me to a lawyer?" Something like that. BLAIR: Oh, that's great, including on here help find good employees. I was thinking about there's an agency principal in Australia you and I both know him. I've done a bunch of work with him. He's told me some stories of when he's had to fire people, they don't say fire in Australia or UK, they sack them, which always sounds extra harsh to us in North America. He's told me stories of he'd bring somebody in who isn't working out, and says, "You're not working out, I'm letting you go, but I think you've got great skills in these other areas, so I've lined up two interviews for you today." DAVID: Wow. BLAIR: Yeah, so he's ruthless when it comes to correcting hiring decisions, but he's very kind in how he goes about it, and he recognizes that everybody's got strengths, and he's got good relationships with his competitors. He's very clear about why he's letting that person go, and why he thinks his competitors should think about bringing that person on, and usually in a different role. DAVID: Right, yeah I think that's great, like if it's for the right reasons, there could be something about the style of this firm that wouldn't be true of another firm. It's not like they're a bad person, they're just not a good fit for this particular role. BLAIR: Is there a line that there's the danger of crossing? The first word I wrote down when you sent me notes on this was collusion. DAVID: Yeah. BLAIR: At some point can you get too close to your competitors? Does it cause some sort of problem, or the perception of problems maybe among clients, or maybe even regulators? DAVID: Yeah, well in the US that would fall under the jurisdiction of the FTC, Federal Trade Commission. Where collusion is very clear, and you can get your hand slapped pretty quickly would be around pricing. BLAIR: Yeah. DAVID: Not so much which opportunities to pursue, although you could get in trouble there, like hey, if I don't pursue this one, can you not pursue that one, that would be collusion. The main area would be on pricing, like how about what's your price on this? There have been some specific lawsuits, the handbook of pricing and ethical guidelines was one example that had to get rewritten, because of a lawsuit as I understand it. DAVID: That strikes me as evil, and I don't think we're talking about that so much. It's more like here's an example, so let's say you're going to respond to an RFP, okay? I know, don't shriek on me here Blair. You're going to respond to an RFP, and you know that another agency has been through an RFP process with them. You might just call them up and say, "Hey, what was that like? Is this even worth it?" Most of the time it's not going to be worth it, but that would not be collusion, that would just be simply sharing public information. BLAIR: I hadn't heard the story around pricing, I was doing a talk on pricing about 18 months ago to an industry group slightly tangential to the creative professions. There was a lawyer in the room, and he kept warning about collusion, he did not like the idea that the competitors were in the same room talking about pricing. I thought he was being ridiculous. DAVID: I think he was being ridiculous, where it can be collusion, is if we're talking about a specific instance. It's not about for instance, the labor law allows you to band together against a common enemy so to speak, that's not collusion. Collusion would be a specific instance related to pricing usually. BLAIR: Gotcha, all right, so let's say somebody's listening to this, and they're warming up to the idea of being more collaborative with their competitors, but they don't currently have relationships with those competitors. How do they go about it? Where do they find these people? Maybe they're so highly specialized, or poorly specialized, they're just not sure who their competitors are, how do you go about it? DAVID: Yeah, if you're poorly positioned, most of your competitors are the ones in your locale geographically. You know those, because they're there, and you share employees, and so on. If you're well-positioned, your competitors are more known to you, even though they're not close to you geographically. These are the names that keep coming up when you are competing for work and so on. DAVID: That would be one way to identify them, obviously Google's our friend here. Another way to identify them, is going to trade conferences. Trade conferences are almost always vertical, or they could be more demographic oriented conferences, horizontal conferences, where you keep seeing the same people there, not so much exhibiting, but you just see them there, they're speaking and so on. DAVID: You notice that these are the folks whose articles are appearing in the same places that yours are, so just connecting with them through your contacts, within a particular focus would be a good way to connect with them. Another might be a common mentor, I get this question a lot, like do you know of somebody that's doing this that I could talk with and so on? I don't connect people who aren't clients of mine, but if they are clients of mine, then I'll try to find somebody to connect them with. DAVID: I actually put round tables together, which are specific attempts to do this, that's not really the subject of this podcast, but that's an example of what a paid advisor might do. Sometimes a common mentor, so like if you're getting advice from an older woman or gentleman in your town who's coaching you on running a good creative business, because they've been in that field, and they've slowed down a little bit, they usually are going to know somebody else that would be a good fit for you. DAVID: I am talking about cooperating with folks who are definitely otherwise competitors of yours. I'm not talking about people that you might meet in a YEO, or YO kind of a context, I'm talking about people that you'd compete with normally. BLAIR: Okay, are there instances where this can go wrong? Obviously, I wouldn't ask you to name names, but I'm sure there has to be situations where you started being magnanimous towards a competitor, and then at some point realized this is a one-way relationship where this person is taking and not giving, and your idea about them ended up changing. DAVID: For sure, yeah, I can think of an attorney actually in New York that I was referring lots of work too, and it turned out that not only did they never share generously, but they kept asking, kept asking, and it became annoying. I just basically shut them down, they still do good work, so I haven't done anything to hurt them at all. If somebody is actually out to hurt me, then we come into the Kobe Bryant crush them phase, which is actually the evil side of this, and it's kind of fun. DAVID: You have to do that once or twice a year, right? Otherwise, I was just wondering if people are still listening at this point. Otherwise, it just doesn't happen, because who are the people that are going to hear the worst things about me as an advisor? It's going to be my competitors, right? If my competitors hear about me, but their experience in working with me is not at all matching, they're going to pause the conversation and say, even just to themselves, you must not be a good client, because that's not how I've experienced him. There's so many advantages here to make this work well. BLAIR: Yeah, it strikes me as this is going sound a bit corny, it's a bit like love though, right? The more you give, the more you get, and the more open you are, and more gracious you are with your competitors, the more likely you are to get back. Even if it's not a full reciprocation, there's still that feeling of you helping others, of yourself worth, etc., it's got to escalate. DAVID: Yeah, for sure, and there are many times when somebody does great work, and you've sent them lots of work, but they're not sending you work. That's okay, because they might be at a different place on the referral chain. In other words, by the time they hear of a client, they're past their need for you, whatever you happen to do along that chain. DAVID: It can't be a tit-for-tat thing, it's really just about surrounding yourself with people who are generous in life in many ways. I find that, that's a very satisfying experience, almost regardless of the outcome. BLAIR: Well, you've convinced me, I'm going to start thinking about maybe referring a piece of business to you. DAVID: Yeah, it's about damn time honestly. BLAIR: Thanks David, this has been great. DAVID: Bye Blair.

  Thoughts? Comments? You can contact me by calling or texting 201-429-0274. If you leave a voicemail please be aware, you only have 3 minutes. Email me at improveandhavefun@gmail.com ..Join the conversation on the blog by going here https://bit.ly/2HcTL6o  ..Thanks for listening! -This article has an affiliate link. This transcript has been summarized, compared to the audio which is longer.   PVP: It's the Improve and Have Fun podcast. We just finished watching "Ready Player One." I'm here with Mr. David and Jason G.   -Read or listen to the Ready Player One book here https://amzn.to/2JUrzXy -   Jason G: Hey!   David: Yes.   PVP: Alright Jason, what did you think about Ready Player One?   Jason G: Oh my goodness. This movie was incredible. I had an extraordinary amount of fun. It's probably going to be in my top five movies of the year. We saw it in 4DX; I cannot imagine a better way to experience this film. We saw "Ghost in the Shell" in 4DX, that was incredible. This is the best movie I've ever seen in this format. I recommend people to see this movie in a theater with the biggest screen. The 3D is awesome, but 4DX is the way to go.   -What is 4DX?  check that out here https://rol.st/2Hy7WpT -   David: Jason, how many movies have you seen in 4DX?   Jason G: I've probably seen around five.   David: Want to list them?   Jason G: I saw "Rogue One," "Ghost in the Shell," "Ready Player One," and a couple more. But I forgot the other two; I'll have to look.   -Here is a link to our review of 'Ghost In The Shell' https://bit.ly/2qDbVqS -   PVP: I haven't seen too many movies in 4DX. This is the second movie I've seen in this format. The first one was "Deep Water Horizon'. I want to cosign what you said. This is probably going to be one of my favorites of 2018 as well.   I was sucked into this world. There were points where this felt like a Universal Studios(park)ride. With all the references to movies of the past, pop culture, cartoons, and video games; you'd have to see it two to three times just to catch everything. What a ride.   This was a combination of old and new. A mix of things that we enjoyed in our youth, and modern-day VR entertainment. Phenomenal. I very much enjoyed it. Thank you, Steven Spielberg. You took me back to when you were making movies like "E.T.," and 'Crystal Skull.'   David: "Indiana Jones"?   PVP: Exactly. This is a big adventure movie.   Jason G: He said this was the third hardest movie that he's ever made, with "Jaws" being number one. Boy did he do a good job.   No one makes a movie like Spielberg does. This man made "Jurassic Park." The adventure, the danger, the fun. He's really good at what he does.   David: I echo both of your sentiments. You notice a Steven Spielberg directed movie; this didn't look like his technique, but it was great.   You guys fooled me. I didn't know what I was getting into with the 4DX. Wow, my back feels great. Looking forward to seeing other films this way.   PVP: We universally agreed we would see this again.   David: And the Easter eggs. There's so many.   PVP: 100%. What were some of the standouts for you?   David: There's one image I noticed in the very beginning. It was a billboard showing a film, a superhero film. And I didn't know what it was. Was it a future Spider-Man movie or something?   PVP: The billboard I noticed in the distance, was promoting, the VR suits the characters wore.   David: Maybe that's what it was.   PVP: Regarding the Easter eggs I noticed; "Krull," "Mecha Godzilla," "Gundam," "Battle Toads," "Halo," "Overwatch," "Street Fighter," "Batman." I saw Joker in there; I saw Harley Quinn in there.   David: TJ Miller was great in the movie, by the way.   Jason G: I don't even know who that is, but he was very, very good.   PVP: You've seen him, he was in "Deadpool".   Jason G: Oh, okay.   If you grew up in the 70's and 80's and maybe early 90's, and you're between the ages of 30 and 50, this movie will make you smile.   PVP: We can spoil it, these reviews always have spoilers.   Jason G: My favorite part was where they go into "The Shining" movie. I enjoyed this film growing up. It scared the shit out of me.   David: That was an homage to Kubrick, right?   David: Yeah. I also noticed the pod from "2001: A Space Odyssey". I couldn't believe nobody saw that.   PVP: I did notice that.   Jason G: Yeah, yeah I saw that.   PVP: Other references include Iron Giant, Freddy Kruger...   David: Yes stuff from the 70's and 80's.   PVP: Exactly.   David: Even from the 2000s.   PVP: Yes! Game characters from Overwatch, Halo, Gears Of War. There's a lot in this movie.   Jason G: I saw a poster from "Back to the Future." It was of the mayor of Twin Pines or whatever the town's name.   PVP: Not Biff Tannen.   Jason G: No, no, no. The guy who became mayor, the black guy who was sweeping up the shop.     PVP: I do want to go back to that Shining scene. It was one of the best in the movie. I can see studios re-releasing these older films in VR. Where we the audience are in the theaters with VR headsets experiencing things in a completely different way.   David: This year 2018 there has there been a convergence of culture regarding time. Kids are into stuff from decades past. 'Stranger Things' as an example.   There are people right now who are into living as if they were in the 80's.   PVP: Style-wise.   David: Yeah and culture.   Jason G: In Japan, there are groups of young dancers, who will put on shows with dance styles from the 80's or early 90's.   David: Breakdancing?   Jason G: More 90s style.   PVP: Blazers with the big shoulder pads?   Jason G: Yeah, a lot of stuff is coming back.   PVP: Alright gentlemen, we're wrapping it up. Any cons with the movie?   David: Some of the effects in the theater were overkill.   PVP: You're talking about the 4DX effects?   David: Yes. But not even enough to complain, compared to how great it was.   PVP: Jason?   Jason G: "Back to the Future," the original one, is a flawless movie directed by Spielberg. You can not say that about this. I would say the story could have been a little more clever. It was a little on the simple side, but it made up for it in so many other ways.   PVP: My only nitpick with this movie was how the kids came together in the game. How one guy got the key, then they all get the key afterward. It was very convenient. I like their chemistry when they're all together in the real world.   I also wanted to add, Mark Rylance was great.   David: What was that? Who was he?   PVP: He was the old guy who made the oasis.   Jason G: So let's talk about numbers now, I guess?   David: You guys think it's gonna beat "Black Panther"?   PVP: I don't know.   Jason G: Are you talking about regarding box office money? I would say no, I think "Black Panther" will probably beat it. Now let's go to the numbers. I would say this is a nine.   PVP: That's great. I'm with you right there. Nine all the way.   Jason G: People like when Spielberg's on his game. These types of adventure movies don't always hit, but I still appreciate them. He's always working. He'll do some dramas like he just did "The Post" with Tom Hanks and Meryl Streep. He has so much range.   David: I'm gonna give it an eight.   PVP: David, Jason, thank you so much. If you the listener/viewer/reader saw this movie, what are your thoughts? Please let us know below or through any/all of the contact info in the show notes. This is the Improve and Have Fun podcast. The summer(?)movie season is just beginning. Very exciting. See you on the next one.   Social Media Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/paul_pvp_perez/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pvpluvzlieff   Twitter: https://twitter.com/Paul_PVP_Perez   Rate, like, leave a review! I will shout you out for sure!   If you've enjoyed this, please support this podcast by doing any, all your shopping through my affiliate links:   my eBay link: eBay http://ebay.to/2e5mvmj   or my Amazon link: http://amzn.to/2dRu3IM   Any shopping through these links will be at no extra cost to you. 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[paypal-donation] As Hitler came to power in Germany, how did the LDS Church respond?  In our next conversation, we'll talk to Dr. David Nelson and we'll talk specifically about how J Reuben Clark of the First Presidency dealt with Jews in Hitler's Germany.  It wasn't a pretty picture.  Nelson describes the political environment Clark grew up around. David:  Yes, well J. Reuben Clark, you're right.  He was pretty much against war to start off with because the Republicans in his period of time were isolationist.  They were very much against the League of Nations[1] after World War I and J. Reuben Clark was an old-style Republican.  But yes J. Reuben Clark was a xenophobe, a nativist, and an anti-Semite. He had a long government career during Republican administrations and then he was in private practice as a lawyer when Woodrow Wilson served eight years as a Democrat as president after [Teddy] Roosevelt up until his [Roosevelt's] death in 1921.  J. Reuben Clark was primarily a nativist and xenophobe, and he became, because of his experiences in the eastern United States, he became an anti-Semite.  When J. Reuben Clark gave the valedictory address at the University of Utah in 1898, the whole thing was filled with anti-immigrant sentiment. Now this was not just J. Reuben Clark.  One of the bad things about American progressivism at the time, and don't think of progressivism back then as progressive is used as the word today.  There were good things in progressivism, but there was a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment in progressivism.  Immigrants are coming over, they're taking our jobs away from us and all that. Find out what Clark said!  We'll also talk about how he responded to both Jewish and non-Jewish immigration requests to the United States.  Check out our conversation….. https://youtu.be/K3IyHa7ZAKw [paypal-donation] [1] This was a forerunner of the United Nations and was proposed by U.S. President Woodrow Wilson as a reaction to World War I.

Could it be? The titular David Sims of Blank Check with Griffin and DAVID? Yes bitch it is!! This week, David is being a real sport and handling Rebecca’s rage fueled trip down memory lane as she talks about high school musician/internet crush, JOSHUA, and former best friend JO. She’s literally so mad and is ready for chaos. David, on the other hand, is talking about his childhood crush on HANNAH, his good friend who honestly sounds so cool. There’s talk of growing up in London, bold 11-year-old moves, internet cafes, manipulation, heartbreak, crush-transference, and being REAL. Fakers beware. Follow David at: davidlsims Follow Rebecca at: AlmondMilkHotel Follow the show at: ClassroomCrush SONGS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE: There Goes The Fear - Doves Waste of Paint - Bright Eyes Lazy Line Painter Jane - Belle and Sebastian Failure’s Not Flattering - New Found Glory Song For Whoever - The Beautiful South

David A. Duryea is business improvement veteran with more than thirty-two years of experience in practical business improvement and technology innovation. He has led more than sixty business improvement and innovation projects in sixteen different industries. As a legal expert witness for failed technology and business innovation projects, David has performed project forensics on failed implementations for over a dozen large-scale projects. A popular speaker on business improvement, he has been featured at Computerworld, InfoWorld, and industry conferences. His articles in the area of ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) and advanced technology implementation practices have been featured. David holds a patent from the United States Patent Office, degrees in business administration and computer science, and an MBA with a focus in project management. David is happily married with seven children, four of whom were adopted from China. He and his family live near Cleveland, Ohio. When not studying the intricacies of business improvement, he enjoys hiking, bicycling, baseball, coaching, and investing time in activities with his children. His Business-Improvement Model Part 1: Business Strategy Structure Step 1 Understand the Law of Business Reality Organizations serve customers in a profitable way (balancequality and efficiency) or cease to exist. Step 2 Understand the Target—The Core Business Model Why organizations generate profit different from their competitors. Step 3 Influencers of the Core Business Model Pressure and Enhancers on Performance Step 4 Embrace Business Strategy and Structure Basis for Improvement—Whether Leaders Know It or Not Part 2: Business Process Structure Step 5 Common Processes and Functions of a Business Model The Law—Inherent to Process, Functions, and Operation Step 6 Industry Processes of a Business Model Developing Industry Common Process Structure Step 7 Core Business Model Processes Embrace for Uniqueness and Profitability Step 8 Business Processes Influencers Influencing Process Structure, Performance , and Profitability Step 9 The Business-Improvement Objective Change Operations to Further an Organization’s Core Business Model Step 10 Business and Operational Performance The Performance Goal—Core Business Model Productivity Step 11 True Operational Performance Measurement Measure the Goal: Core Business Model Productivity Part 3: Business Enablement Structure Step 12 Business Process Enablement: Resources to Realize the Core Business Model The Interview Transcript Interview with David Duryea Hugh Ballou: It’s Hugh Ballou again. My guest tonight is a man I met through another person, his publicist. We talked a little bit, and I discovered we had a lot of values in common and we do similar work. We are going to talk about David Duryea’s new book that is out. I have a copy of this book, and it’s really good. It’s 200 pages of really, really well-researched, well-written content. The book is called- I’m getting to the cover. I’ve started reading and I am deep down into it. The cover is a light bulb, and it says Do the Right Thing. My guest on this podcast is David Duryea. David, tell people a little bit about yourself and what inspired you to want to write this really great book Do the Right Thing. David Duryea: Well, first of all, Hugh, thanks for having me on again. It’s been a great conversation and connection with you as well. Basically, Do the Right Thing is doing the right thing in business improvement, including process and technology. I would have to say that I came up with the idea, or at least the inklings of the idea, somewhere around the late ‘90s, believe it or not, when we were in the heydays of putting in a lot of different technologies. Dot coms were coming up as well, and we were doing a lot of implementations. I also saw at the same time a very high failure rate. Some of my background is integrated in that. Not only have I been working in this industry for almost 32 years—I have done a lot of researches, I have been on over 60 different implementations and projects myself—I was also called on the courts to be an expert witness for failed projects. What that means is I was in project forensics. I would go in, figure out why the project died, what caused it, and where the bones were buried. I wrote the reports and submitted it to the courts. During that process, there was a lot of things that came to light. I saw a lot of different failures, and I also saw a lot of different reasons. What happened was all of those projects converged into a similar idea and concept. Those are the concepts I have highlighted in the book. I put a lot of these concepts into different phrases so people could really understand them and use them in their insightful way. The first thing was the law of business reality. The law of business reality is how an organization is created basically to serve their customers in a profitable way. The law says that if you don’t serve your customers in a profitable way, you will cease to exist. All organizations are under that principle, that law if you will. A core business model, which is a big part of the book, is a subset or derivative of the law of business reality. That is an organization serves its customer uniquely in its industry in a profitable way. Every organization needs to understand exactly why they are there, how they serve their customers, and how they do that in a profitable way. If you cannot serve your customers, and you cannot be profitable in some way, then you will cease to exist. Hugh: You say in the latter part of the book that “You understand how crucial it is to have a good understanding from the law of business reality to your organization’s own core business model to a sound, functional, and cost-effective enterprise establishment strategy. It is a cascading relationship that starts with the essence of the organization.” “It is a cascading relationship that starts with the essence of the organization.” That is a profound paragraph. David: Hugh, the core business model is what an organization is all about. It transcends all the mechanics and knowledge and things people want to do with their business. It is the heart of why you’re there. Very successful organizations have those. If you look around at the most successful what I would call start-ups or large organizations, like Apple, Netflix, FedEx, even Amazon right now. Amazon is really in the news right now with what it did with its acquisition that it’s impending on. They know exactly who they are, how they serve their customers, and the customers themselves know who they are and how they will serve them. When you have that essence, when you really understand yourself—you are not just going through the motions of “Hey, this is serving up a service or a product, and here you go,” but you really have that passion for it—then your organization emulates that as well. The connection point between the core business model of the organization, all of the operations that need to activate if you will your core business model, all of that is- In the book, it is described as three major pieces: your marketing and sales, your product or service development and delivery, and your administration to support those. All of those have different activities and processes that they need to go on. The essence is something that permeates all of those things. The core business model turns into core business processes, and then they also turn into core business enablement. And we discuss that all the way through the book so you understand when you buy a certain type of technology, if it doesn’t further your core business model, then you will have a real problem serving your customers in the way they want to be served. Just to give you a quick idea, Hugh: When we were doing implementations, one of the root causes of the failures was because they actually purchased software, which is called ERP software, that was really designed for a different industry than the industry they were in. For instance, this was a distribution company, and they bought software that was about manufacturing. Those were a mismatch; therefore, the software didn’t fit them real well. The project failed. In this case, the project failed, and it brought down the organization. It literally sent the company into chapter eleven. Hugh: Oh my goodness. You talk about that as well: “You can see the direct relationship of how it affects not only your business, but also every business. It’s the reality-based improvement that so many organizations seem to try to ignore or circumvent. Now that you have the insight to the misguided leadership styles, failed establishment initiatives, and disintegrated operational models that have led to failed projects and bankrupt companies, you in turn have the methods to directly drive your company to be one of the industry leaders.” How did you come to the essence of all of these moving parts? There are a lot of them, and you address all of them in the 200 pages of this book. I find it easy to grasp because it is laid out so cleanly. I hate books that are all just copy, but you have it laid out so it’s really easy to grasp the concepts visually, which means in my simple mind, I can internalize it. Tell me about your background of how you assimilated all of these components and put them together in this really good book. David: Because I was not only doing the implementations for business, but I was also doing forensics, I could see it from both ends. I was speaking not only to people that were in the operations side, but I was also speaking to the business side and boards of directors and investors. It gave me such a broad-based perspective of exactly every level of the organization and which level has an impact or influence on it. I also spoke to some customers. I also got the unique perspective of understanding how the customers looked from the outside in, and also from the management and leadership from the inside out. Because of that broad base or that holistic viewpoint I was able to glean out of so many different engagements, I was able to clearly put all of these concepts together, and also I saw how they all connected and they were all holistically and synergistically connected. Hugh: I like that word “synergy.” My company, as you may know, is called SynerVision. I took Synergy and Vision and put them together. As you may also know, I spent 40 years as a musical conductor. We create the culture of high performance, which we call ensemble. SynerVision is what resembles ensemble in a culture that is not a music culture. What you talked about, about your core model, I relate everything to the orchestra, the choir. There is a core model for how we function. It is a very high-performance model. You either cut it, or you don’t play. It’s a very high standard indeed. I’ve yet to find that kind of standard in any other organization that I work with, whether it’s a mid-cap organization or a smaller nonprofit. I don’t find that system anywhere. This core business model driving to higher performance, expand on that a little more, if you think there is some synergy with what I just talked about. David: Absolutely. I have been nowhere near the level of music talent that you’ve been, but I certainly have played an instrument. I was all the way through college in the marching bands. If you can’t play in tune, you’re out. You know it instantly when someone is out of tune. You’re always nudging the guy next to you and saying, “Hey, what is wrong with you?” In the same side of it, in the marching band, if someone isn’t in line, you know that, too. In fact, the whole audience sees that. The idea of the core business model is exactly what you said, Hugh. It actually is not only the essence, but it is also the goal. It gives you the idea of exactly what you need to do. As you say, you’re a conductor. Everybody in the orchestra needs to look at you. Everybody needs to know where they are in the music. Everybody needs to know what’s coming next. It’s the same thing as the core business model. Everybody understands what it is they are driving for. This is the model; this is the goal; this is what we need to do. They all know their places in the organization, whether it’s in the process of marketing/sales/service; administration; or service/product deliverability. They all know their individual roles, and they all know how they fit together so the whole operation runs at the same time. Believe me, Hugh, they know when the sales and marketing isn’t in sync with the product deliverability because someone is overselling the features or just the product itself, the features aren’t doing what they said they did, and it’s not in alignment with the core business model. All the way down to your attorneys. If your attorneys are not expressing the contracts they need to, it emulates who you are at a core business model. All of it together is either in sync or out of sync. And guess what? Your customer is going to know immediately. Hugh: That is so critical. Under your business improvement model on page 162 in your book, step one under part one of the Business Strategy Structure, Understanding the Law of Business, the footnote, the description underneath it is, “The organization serves customers in a profitable way (balance, quality, and efficiency) or cease to exist.” In the next one, Understand the Target of the Core Business Model: Why Organizations Generate Profit Differently from Their Competitors. We want to serve customers in a profitable way. It’s really the balance that is important. Talk a little bit more about those. We get off track. Some companies are so focused on profitability at the expense of the customer experience that it really hurts their company. Talk about this balance a little bit under the law of business. David: That’s a great point, Hugh. The whole idea of the core business model is about balance. You have to serve your customers, and you have to earn profits; otherwise, you are not sustainable as an organization. You cannot continue to serve your customers in the way they would like if you cannot make the profits that you need. At the same time, we know you have to earn some sort of profits not only to maintain but also to pay all of your expenses and to earn a little bit of investment. You have to have some investment; otherwise, you can’t be sustainable. At the same time, if you take advantage of your customer, or even basically take them for granted, I see that so often in businesses. Taking a customer for granted, that they are always going to be there. Well, because of the invent of all the things of social media, online purchasing, it will take you all but 30 seconds to lose a customer. In the book, I actually highlight the cost of losing customers and how that has an impact and how much of an impact on market share and things like that. You definitely do not want to take advantage of your customer, and you certainly don’t want to take them for granted. That takes a lot of effort and investment on the other side. You have to be efficient at serving that customer. If you are not efficient, you won’t be profitable enough to serve your customers in the way they expect. The balance is constant, where you are constantly trying to serve, constantly trying to be efficient, and constantly trying to do both at the same time. If you don’t keep that focus of constantly balancing, one of them is going to get out of balance, and then you are going to start to slide into unprofitable situations or you will lose market share and customers will run to a competitor who is serving them in the way they want. Either way, it’s going to slide the company into probably dissolution. Hugh: Absolutely. You should send a copy of this book to the major airlines. Let’s let that one slide. How does focusing on an organization’s core business model help drive higher performance? Going back to the musical analogy, to me, the core of who we are is our performance. It’s not the theory of what we do; it’s how we actually perform the day-to-day operations. We do make a profit because we provide value to our customers. How does focusing on this core business model drive higher performance? David: The first thing you want to do is understand why you are serving your customers, why they are coming to you. It’s not, “Hey, this is what we’re offering you. You need to come to us.” That’s not the way it works. The way it works is the customer says, “Hey, you’re serving me in the way I want. I like that, and you’re giving it to me for a fairly good price that I can work with.” The idea is the performance side of it is first you have to lay out how you are going to serve your customer. From that, there are processes and functions. You also need to enable those processes and functions. The number one enablement right now is technology, as everybody knows. Technology is a big deal. But the issue is now technology is extremely expensive. Furthermore, it can be complex to work with. The company needs to keep a very good focus as to what kind of technology they need and their own customer value. When you are driving in performance toward the back end of the book, I have actually laid out how you can measure the performance of the processes in something I call core business productivity. There is a way you can measure that and then compare that with a new operation you want to put in. That is a good way for most organizations to understand whether a new piece of technology, a new vendor, or even a third-party outsourcer—I am constantly being asked if we should keep something in-house, or should we give it to a third party? Remember this. Any time you take a particular function and move it outside of your organization, it is going to dilute your core business model because somebody else is doing it. If there is a way you can maintain that, then it’s fine. But most of the time, if you keep it in-house, you have total control, but it could be more expensive. So you are constantly balancing those pieces of how you are going to enable your process and your operations to perform it in a higher way. Performances can be measured in the core business model productivity. This helps you understand what keeps you in balance all the way through from the top part of the organization down to the lower ends, where you are actually in contact with your customers. Hugh: Productivity = F:E. Is that the shortened version of it? Core business productivity = Core business model functionality and efficiency performed. David: Yes. It’s basically functionality times efficiency. The reason why it’s laid out that way is that the functionality piece is the functions you want to perform for your customers. It’s literally what it is that needs to get done. The efficiency side is how efficient are you at performing those functions. That’s the balance. You have these functions that need to be done, and the efficiency, how well you are performing those functions. If you multiply those two together, then you get what is called productivity. If one goes out of balance, meaning you are not doing the functions you need to, then your productivity goes down. If you are not doing the functions efficiently, then your productivity goes down. See how those balances balance out? Hugh: Yes. What I was thinking is this ought to be mandatory reading for anybody starting a business. We get off track because we look at the existing models of ineffective, inefficient productivity and not really valuing the customer experience. I guess you are familiar with the Gallup poll that says 70% of employees are either disengaged or actively disengaged. David: Correct. Hugh: Which adds to negatively impacting their performance. David: Exactly. They are not- I’d love to be able to do some research on that to peel back the layers on the onion here and try to understand why that 70% exists. Why is it so persistent out there? I bet you those people are not connected to the organization’s core business model. They are not invested in what’s going on. They don’t seem to understand how they fit into the tonal model. Hugh: My experience is you’re spot-on. I do the people part of that. How do we integrate it into performance? It’s the culture piece that I work with. We call it leadership, but very few people understand leadership. What you are giving us is a solid framework to educate us on what it should look like and how we measure it. I am going back to if we are starting a business. A lot of people start a business, and many of them fail. Dunne and Bradstreet said 90% of entrepreneurs fail because they don’t have the skillset to run a business. They call it manage-to-manage. It’s leadership, and as John Maxwell says in The Law of the Lid, the organization can’t go any further than the leader’s ability to lead it. What you are giving in this book from what I have seen—and I have not digested it, it’s a lot of really useful content that I was not willing to rush through, but the parts that I have seen I resonate with a lot. Your listing of citations in the back, your attributions, you did a lot of research in addition to your own personal experience. So it’s not just you shootin’ from the hip. It’s well-thought out, well-researched. It took you five years to put this together, I believe you said. David: It took me five years to write it. Again, it was a part-time thing. But it probably took more like 15 years to actually be able to solidify and legitimize all of the concepts in the book itself. But yeah, it was pretty rigorous, but I wanted to be comprehensive. I wanted it to be something a business leader or someone in the trenches could pick up and say, “Okay, I understand this piece. I know how this works for me.” Like you said, it is step by step. It is like a handbook, but also something people can pick up and understand the concepts and how those concepts fit in their own organization. Hugh: I found that to be very true. What do you see as the major issues as to why organizations do not perform or projects that do not attain the target of performance? David: Well, I would say the biggest reason is the leadership really doesn’t understand their own core business model. This one, Hugh, was a big revelation for me. I even have a story in the book of how I sat down with a business leader and asked him the question, “So why do the customers buy from you?” And he said that I was the very first consultant that ever asked that question of him. He said many consultants come in and talk to him about all kinds of performance models and analytics and things like that, but I was the first one to ask him why the customer buys from them. Instinctively, he knew his core business model. It was a private organization, and a lot of private organizations know that instinctively. A lot of leaders and organizations do not understand their core business model, and they get into some ideas how they want to expand the company. They don’t even realize some of those initiatives go against their core business model. That is very problematic, and we have seen that a lot. The first thing is why do businesses or some project initiatives fail? That is because they don’t understand how those initiatives are going to affect their core business model. I would say the next thing is the companies don’t understand how their own products and services fit into their core business model. One of the great cases I would think of is the Apple computer. If you think of the history of the Apple computer and what they have been able to do, and they have changed a lot over the years, but what hasn’t changed is their core business model. People don’t even realize this, but they take technology and make it simple. That’s what they do. On top of that, they make it, if I will, cool. And that is how they have been able to add on all products, not just computers, but also their phones, their pads, their iPods. Everything they do is all about taking some technology and making it easy to use and then making it real fun. They really understand their products and services and how all of their products would fit inside their core business model. I would say another big one is the misnomer that technology will automatically further an organization’s core business model. Not necessarily. You have to get the right kind of technology. The next one is the big one I work with almost every day. That is innovation will automatically further an organization. Those two sound a little bit the same, but they’re not. There are all kinds of innovation that comes out, but sometimes organizations don’t necessarily mesh with the innovation itself. Here is the biggest one of all: Organizations that don’t even realize that their industry has been changed by innovation. They don’t grasp that. Hugh, that dovetails very much into what you do with leadership and the skills and things you are talking about. They didn’t have the skillset to realize what the impact of certain innovation is going to be on their organization and in their core business model. I see that a lot these days because these things are changing very well. Hugh: I agree with you. It’s partly that leaders don’t understand their role and the consequences of their actions. They think they have to be the boss. They have to make all the decisions rather than using the expertise around them. I bought a little camera store in Florida and grew it from $12,000 a year to $1.4 million and owned commercial photo in that part of central Florida over the years. I had five distinctly different Kodak dealerships. At that point, Kodak owned the imaging business. They were the big guy on the block. They totally ignored Fuji and the innovation of dealership. As you know, they ultimately went into bankruptcy. Now they are just a very different minimal player instead of a major player. The leadership was really blind to the status quo. This innovation thing can really distract you or not. It can kill you. That’s a huge point you just made. David: Exactly. Hugh: I’m curious: What instrument did you play? David: Trumpet. Hugh: Ah! I won’t tell you my trumpet player jokes because you will probably come back with conductor jokes. There is some synergy in the core business model and the orchestra; I want to use an orchestra because there are so many different kinds of distinct personalities. Brass players are very different from the woodwinds, for example, would you say? David: Absolutely. Hugh: So the leader nuances all of those, but your core business model is your culture, and your core business model is the structure, which is a very analytical, highly mathematical structure, which then provides the basis for structure to be created. In that core model of the orchestra, we have the strategy of the music itself, the piece of paper, but it’s the connection and integration of that and performance that really makes something happen. The core business model and the understanding of it is what’s missing and the different players understanding their role. We serve the music, we serve the client, which is the audience. We focus on what makes a good user experience. Is there an analogy there that fits what you’re talking about? David: Absolutely. What you are talking about, analogies with music, and we were talking the other day about that- it really does fit similar to that as well is that the model itself gives the goal of where the organization wants to go. The other people, as in musicians, know how to play that instrument. They need that sheet of music to know how they fit altogether. If they fit altogether, and they are doing the right thing, they sound fantastic. If they don’t, then we are out of tune, out of key, and some are coming in when they are not supposed to come in on the music. I only make that analogy because I had a professor constantly tell me- He was a stickler for making sure you were coming right exactly on the downbeat where you should be. And he knew, within milliseconds, or that’s what it seemed like, whether that was accurate or not, but all of those things together, if you don’t come together, then you sound awful. Just like the core business model, if you don’t have everyone together, which sounds like an amalgamation of the culture and the structure and operation all working in concert together. When they do, then it’s working very well. You will be able to instinctively know how to serve customers and balance that quality and efficiency that you need to maintain profitability and sustainability. Hugh: This fits my podcast “Orchestrating Success: Converting Passion to Profit.” The profitability, as you said earlier, drives what we do. I am amazed at how many people don’t realize that even in charities we have to make profit. We are focused too much on profit, or we don’t do that critical balance that you talked about. This is helpful. What steps can an organization take to help improve their performance? David: Well, the first thing they need to do is they need to implicitly understand their own core business model. If they don’t know, they need to figure that out so they can figure out the effects on the operation itself. Once they understand that, they need to understand exactly how their profit generation is tied to their core business model. They need to understand that customer and why they are buying from them. They will be able to understand how that is affecting the model and the generation itself. I really think that businesses need to constantly review industry trends and changes that might impact their core business model. They need to sift them, if this is really moving this or if it’s not. Further technology and innovation, or even a lot of it, is- what about a disruptor? A particular company that is coming in and they look like the start-up, father/son, if you will, and they come up and all of a sudden they dissipate out. An organization that understands why their core business model is there and why that customer is purchasing from them will understand whether a particular disruptor is going to impact them or not. So organizations need to really understand the disruptors and any new innovation and technology that is coming in and sift that with their own core business model. They might need to make the moves, to make the changes. Right now, there is a huge change in what we call the financial advisory industry. Those organizations are starting to really feel the impact, and actually a number of them are starting to file bankruptcy because they did not change, from the impact of how innovation is making it move from an active management model to a more analytical and technology-driven model to reduce costs and make them more efficient. Huge changes that are going on in there. That is just to name one of those impacts. Those pieces themselves constantly looking at what their core business model is, why customers purchase from them, how they can constantly improve that model, and further their customers is the best way to understand how to improve the business. Hugh: This brilliant book that you’ve created, Do the Right Thing of Business Improvement and process and technology. How does the book help organizations to improve? Where can they get the book? David: Okay. The way that it helps them be able to improve themselves is the book is laid out, as you mentioned, Hugh, in a step by step process. It is organized in three areas from top to bottom. It goes from the strategy side to the process of execution side, and then it even has a section on enablement, which is how to evaluate resources for your organization. Basically it goes from A to Z. You can pick it up and read it, and with the stories and research in there, I try to make it more interesting than just a book of definitions, then hopefully you can pick it up and understand the concepts a little bit better. Where they can get the book. It’s on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and my publishers’ website at Westbone.com. It is under the name Do the Right Thing of Business Improvement with my name of David A. Duryea. The other thing they can do is if they like the book and some other resources out there, then they can go to my website, davidaduryea.com, and out there, we highlight those core business model ideas. We have other resources that folks will be able to download, a bunch of white papers, if they are interested in strategy, innovation, and even disruption. Hugh: Love it. David Duryea, you have created a book that should be a standard in anybody’s business library. It’s not only a learning experience, but it’s also a good reference tool to go back to to keep current. I suggest to clients they get good books like this and they read it through with a highlighter and then six months or eight months later, go back and read it again with a different colored highlighter. We find that we have learned enough that we are ready to learn the next thing. This book has enough depth to it that there is more to learn when you go back and review the content. It’s many years of sweat, and it’s really practical advice. Practical content. And very usable content, I find. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with the listeners of Orchestrating Success. We are people who are making a difference in the world, and it’s content like this that empowers us to make a difference. As we close out this interview, is there something we didn’t cover that you’d like to mention briefly? Finally, what is a tip or thought you’d like to give people as we do a summary at the end here? David: The one thing I wanted to do is to make sure that your audience understands that the core business model- There are a lot of ideas, but the one takeaway they have is understanding a core business model in their organization is to serve the customers in a profitable way. They keep that in the forefront of themselves. This is the tip: always keep that in the forefront. Every time you think about an improvement or something you want to do to add a product or a service, keep that in the forefront. Your organization will not get off the rails. It will keep to the core business model. I believe they will be able to sustain a high level of success in all they do. Hugh: David Duryea, thank you for sharing your wisdom with our listeners today. David: Thanks for having me, Hugh. It’s been my pleasure. Thank you so much.

David Belove, CEO at Prodly, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss investing in the channel, compensating your channel sales reps, and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jen: Hi everybody, welcome to the Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer here at Allbound, and today I am joined by David Belove, who is CEO at Prodly. Most recently he served as Vice President of Sales Operations and Productivity at Nitro. Welcome David. So good to have you on the show today. Can you share a little bit about yourself and about kind of some of the roles you played in sales operations?   David: Well, first of all, I've had three distinct careers. I started out as a marketing professional and then I had a sales career, and now I'm refocused on sales operations. So that spanned almost three decades. So I've been making that transition from marketing to sales to sales operations over the last 10 years, I would say.   Jen: That's great.   David: I'm just going to stay in that process so I moved from selling hardware to software and now I'm to the SaaS software.   Jen: I love that, you know, you've had experience in the marketing side, sales, sales operations. I think it's great today to have that breadth of knowledge. You know when it comes to SaaS… you mentioned that you are at Nitro, you had roles at Apttus and eFolder and Cloud9 Analytics. You're pretty well-versed in SaaS sales at this point and I'm curious, you know, over the course of your career, what are some consistencies that you've seen that have really created successful SaaS partner channels? Because selling SaaS through partners and with partners can be different from selling traditional software or hardware even?   David: So, several things come to my mind. One of them would be that, vendors in particular but also that channel partners have to have a super clear picture of their go-to-market strategy. So if you think about go-to-market strategy as where you define your market segmentation. And then the way you pursue these segments, you've got to have a really clear picture in mind so that everybody knows what their role is. And the goal is to avoid sending conflicting messages to your partners and to your direct sales team. You want them to play nicely together. So for example, at Nitro, partners play a pretty clear role. Nitro has Geographic and that's a small company, has geographic and language coverage limitations. And so partners are absolutely crucial in many parts of the world. But also, you know, having a clear picture of which verticals you can cover yourself and which vertical partners have to have expertise to cover for you, or situations like integration. If your product involves integration with other products, partners are going to be really important. It's really hard for a vendor to cover every different instance from an integration perspective. So, in all three of these cases you would have a really clear ROI, and that would make it much easier to explain what your partner's role is in. But that's one point, it's understanding the roles.   And then, the second point would be making sure that you have dedicated marketing and sales resources assigned to the channel. And it's kind of hard because, most especially when you first get going, and in particularly in a SaaS environment where direct sales tend to be the first approach to the market and dedicating these resources is kind of hard to justify. It's an investment because the bookings are probably going to be coming from the direct sales initially and so you're kind of betting on the [come?] that the channels gonna contribute. But if you don't have dedicated channel marketing and channel sales resources you'll never gonna make any progress.   So, one quick story - at Apttus, we were very interested in signing up SI's to help us with not only opportunity generation but implementation. And so we kicked off the program but we didn't have the implementation training programs put in place, and so nothing really happened. We were disappointed with the results. Once those training programs were put in place everything at the top of the funnel started to fall in place.   Jen: That makes a lot of sense. I was really kind of like really curious about… you made a kind of statement about how channel can allow a SaaS organization to not pivot but to kind of expand into another part of business that maybe they couldn't previously move into. Like, whether that's moving from targeting small and medium size businesses to enterprise or going the opposite direction enterprise down to a more of an SMB market. I know that there's... It's one thing to say, “Okay, let's bring on this partners and they're gonna have this expertise so they're gonna get us into these deals or they're gonna get us into these opportunities.” I wonder if you can share a little bit about what makes that kind of a shift or taking event into that kind of opportunity successful. What does an organization need to do in order to really embrace that kind of opportunity to expand beyond a target market that they've already sort of claimed?   David: Yeah. Well, it's tough but it would be similar to expanding into a new geography or if you are expanding your product line, those are both examples of investments that you have to make. Well, expanding your go-to-market strategy to include channels is similar. You've got to be willing to invest, putting in place that dedicated channel resources and training programs and being willing to essentially share the market with your partners is critical.   Jen: What else do you think is really critical for a channel leader who's working on maybe building out or exchanging a channel partner program? Maybe there's… there's a lot of folks we talk to who, you know, they've got these channel partner programs. They sort of were created almost organically, maybe not a lot, maybe not very intentional, and now they've got these program and things are maybe a little bit out of whack or a little bit out of sync. What do you think are some of the most critical elements that a leader should consider when going into... I mean, I hate to use the word "repair," but really optimize their channel program?   David: You know, I think there are various reasons why things break down or need to be optimized, to put it in a positive way. One would be having vague agreements with your partners. If partners are not fully committed to your program, if you don't understand their motivations, there's going to be a problem. The second thing is making sure that you're properly motivating them. Do you have a compensation program for them that makes sense? I mean, moving into SaaS is hard for everybody. Especially if you are transitioning from software, to perpetual software, to SaaS, all of the sudden your revenues are stretched out over a longer period of time. Well, the same thing happens to the channel. They're going through this transition where instead of booking everything upfront, now their revenues are booked over a long period of time, or recognized over a long period of time. So understanding that there's going to be some shared pain there, and making sure that your partners are willing to accept that pain that transition is critical. And not everyone is willing to do that and so you've got to pick your partners carefully. I think one critical role or one idea is to focus on partners who get it. Focus on partners who have accepted the SaaS model and are compensating their sales people that way and are making the transition themselves.   Jen: Yeah. I think that's really a good advice because you really got to work, you know, with you and your partner, vendor and partner have to work as a team together. You really wanna make sure those partners are really on the same page that you are for certain… that makes a lot of sense. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about... you know, it's so interesting to me, I sort of started sorting this sentence okay, and how do I frame this? So when I think about sales operations, this is a very growing field right now. I feel like I'm seeing more and more organizations invest in sales operations.   David: Yup.   Jen: And I'm really focusing on being productive, being efficient, maximizing resources. You know, probably a lot of this has to do with things like growing technology stacks, things like geographically dispersed workforces. So I looked at sales operations professionals as being the fixers in an organization, right? So, it's like, here's what we wanna do…   David: Yeah.   Jen: … and like, all right? Like, we got to go to this, it's like you're an engineer, like help kind of construct this and make sure we think kind of stays inline. So I'm sure you've seen a lot of challenges. I'd love to know about some of the big challenges that you've seen when it comes to management and collaboration of direct and indirect sale programs. People talk about channel conflict a lot. We talk about, you know, how do you continue to have harmony between your direct and your indirect efforts. But you probably see the pain more than anybody else in operations?   David: Yes. Like you've said, we're often tasked with straightening it out, because in some sense we're the Switzerland in that situation where…   Jen: Right.   David: … we, you know, supporting both the channel group and the direct group. But it comes down to a couple of things. One is we have to be able to integrate a channel into the CRM system, so to speak, with the sale stack. And so, it's an extra complexity when you've got to be able to measure channel leads and channel bookings, and be able to integrate that with the direct channel, and know how things are attributed. So do these come from a channel partner or does it come from a direct source? Which one was inbound, which one was contributing? So there's lots of attribution issues. There are CRM tracking issues. And then there are sales process things like, how do you roll out a new price book? You can't forget the channel.   Jen: Right.   David: You're gonna have probably two price books instead of just one. And these are things that a lot of times that SaaS providers are not accustomed to. So, during the integration, and thinking about the channel, whenever you make changes and whenever you plan a new enhancement is really important. The second aspect is in terms of compensation. How do you compensate your channel managers? And a lot of times you have to think about these in terms of their contributions. Is the channel the source of the opportunity or is the channel manager essentially reacting to an opportunity that a direct sales person has located or essentially playing matchmaker. In those two cases, you might want to pay them a different amount of money or a different percentage of the deal. So compensation is an issue, integrating the pipeline, the funnels of the two channels, direct and partners. So there are lots of implications.   Jen: Do you have any war stories you can share with us? Anything maybe that you've experienced that was a major lesson learned or at times maybe you painted yourself into a corner?   David: Well, I think the one that comes to mind would have to do with compensation where their quotas have to be aligned with the quotas of the direct team. And there you have to decide whether they're gonna share that quota or not.   And so, I've seen on a couple of occasions where the quotas for the channel team were aligned more towards run rate business. Say a large number of small deals, and then a large deal comes in. And maybe that large deal is a million dollars or more, and so the channel person blows out their quota but the direct team doesn't. So whoever is in the compensation plan need to be carefully architected to ensure that you don't have a channel manager totally blowing up their number but the direct team doesn't.   Jen: Right, right. That makes a lot of sense. Have you ever experienced any challenges where like internal struggles with revenue share with partners? So you talked about compensation for the channel, the channel manager who works for the vendor.   David: Right.   Jen: What about for partners? Is that something that you've experienced, you know, challenges in that area as well? I find that a lot of people… they're not sure like how much should we be spending, like how much should we be giving and there seems to be like some philosophical battles that I've seen people sort of face when it comes to that.   David: Yeah. There's a couple of different challenges. One challenge would be that the vendor doesn't wanna part with a piece of their SaaS revenue stream.   Jen: Right.   David: And so they'll try to get the partner to accept some sort of a finder's fee or a fixed upfront fee and then forgo the annuity. And of course, if a partner accepts that then they're really not participating in the best part of the SaaS business. And so they're not going to be as committed to you as they would be if they had annuity for an ongoing revenue stream.   Jen: Right, right. So if you want your partners to bring you SaaS business you should be expected to pay them as such, and pay them the commission, is that what you're sharing?   David: That's right.   Jen: Yeah.   David: Yeah, and it should be not some sort of a fixed finder's fee, so to speak upfront. But we want them to share in the ongoing revenue. And of course a lot of SaaS companies are very direct sales oriented and they see that as a major sacrifice for them. So that's something that everybody has to work through. It's the idea that partners should be sharing in the revenue stream. And so that's one scenario. And then, another scenario would be where partners are having to shift their role in the sale from a software model where they're making their money by doing provisioning and the licensing and installation and upgrade, and things like that, to providing more of a strategic consulting role, where they're helping their client with business transformation and with integration and security. And that may be… I mean, I don't think that's new to many established partners today, but five years ago that was a major transformation.   Jen: Right.   David: So essentially they have to upgrade their value to their clients to take into account the difference in the way a SaaS product is delivered, versus a software product.   Jen: I'm just curious also, over the course of your career, and you have mentioned kind of like three decades of working in marketing and sales, and sales operations, let's just go back five years ago, you know. I mean technology has advanced in the last five years but not so significant. So what's a piece of advice that you would have told yourself five years ago based on what you know now about sales, about the channel, about business, just wondering what you'd like to tell yourself in the past?   David: Well, just to kind of keeping at the theme of this conversation, I would say that five years ago I still probably had some doubts about how the channel would participate in SaaS.   Jen: Yeah.   David: I think I was still unclear about that. But so I would reassure myself, my younger self that SaaS is something that the channel can participate in, must participate in, and that there's a major role there. Like I've said, it's gonna be different in many cases. They're gonna have to develop a more essentially business expertise, meaning expertise in their vertical expertise, in system integration, in security; things that are more difficult than just focusing on the delivery of hardware and software.   Jen: Right. And perhaps there's a role that the vendors can play in helping to coach their partners and bring them along for the ride, and treat them like that natural extension of their sales and marketing teams that they have and truly partner together…   David: Yeah.   Jen: … so those partners aren't kind of felt like left off in an island by themselves.   David: Yeah. So I think this has been going on but essentially the partners contribute their vertical expertise and their integration expertise. Well, the SaaS vendors can share their expertise in how you manage a SaaS business. How do you pay SaaS sales people? How do you make this transition from selling software to software as a service? That's something that vendors have been forced to go through and to figure out and they can share that with their channel partners. That's essentially comes right like a franchise where the franchisor is teaching the franchisees how this sort of business works, how the model works.   Jen: Right, right. Here you go, right. Here's the kit, here it is in the box, right. Here's everything you need to know in order to be successful. I think that's a great example of franchisers have been doing this for decades, really setting their franchisees up for success. I think there's definitely a lot we can learn from that model for sure.   David: Yeah. There are many of examples of channel partners now that do understand SaaS and are making that transition but there are ongoing lessons to be learned that vendors can share.   Jen: Always, always. Well, David, before I let you go, it's been great talking to you about sales operations and the role of operations in and the channels in SaaS, I do have… at the very end of all my podcast I ask some more personal questions just so we can get to know you a little bit better. Our listeners feel like they get a little bit more of a glimpse into your life. So I got four really simple questions as long as you're willing?   David: Sure. Fire it up, Jen.   Jen: All right, all right. So first question is what is your favorite city?   David: My favorite city, other than my hometown of Los Altos where I've lived for most of my life, I would say it's Santa Fe, New Mexico.   Jen: Oh, nice. I haven't been there yet. But it's one of the places I really like to go. What do you like about Santa Fe?   David: Well, the atmosphere is amazing. For example, if you go in the summer time, the monsoon clouds build up over the Rio Grande Valley and they charge across the valley and move to Santa Fe, you'll get a 3 P.M. rain shower. And then the whole thing kind of dissolves into bright blue skies again.   Jen: Yeah. Sounds a little bit like the way some of the storm that get into Tucson, Arizona. I went to college there and have amazing, amazing lighting storms. Where amazing monsoons where it just keeps pouring rain and the streets would be flooded and we'd be trudging that from class, with like water up to your knees. And all of the sudden, it just stop and the sun was out and skies are blue, and it look like it had never rained.   David: Yeah. Like nothing happened.   Jen: Yeah, unbelievable. It's really cool, nature is amazing. Second question for you, would you consider yourself an animal lover?   David: Oh yeah, for sure. My dog is sleeping on the couch next to me here.   Jen: What kind of dog do you have?   David: A Goldendoodle.   Jen: Oh, very cute.   David: Yeah. She's looking at us now, “Are they talking about me.”   Jen: Yeah, that's right. Okay, next question, Mac or PC?   David: Well, I started out as a big Mac fan and I still first use iPhones and iTunes and all that. But I'm pretty accustomed to using a PC at this point. One short story is that my parents were one of the first distributors for Apple computer.   Jen: Wow.   David: This was in the 70s. They were the distributors from Mexico.   Jen: Wow, that's crazy. So you had a Mac early on, you had an Apple computer early on?   David: Yeah.   Jen: That's interesting. A lot of people I talked to when I ask that question they said, “Well, it was always PC. And then they started working for this company, and they gave me a Mac, and now I'm using Mac.” So I haven't heard a lot of people share the opposite way around. It's interesting. My last question for you is, if I were able to offer you an all expenses paid trip, where would it be to?   David: Oh gosh. This is really hard. I would say Venice.   Jen: Nice. Have you been there before?   David: I have been to Venice once before, and I remember to this day getting off of the train and looking out across the Grand Canal and seeing the gondolas, that was just magical. I think I would want to go back.   Jen: Excellent, excellent. Well, I would love to join you. I've been to a few different places in Italy but I never made it to Venice, so my only knowledge of Venice is basically like the Venetian in Las Vegas, which is really embarrassing to admit I don't know why I just said that. But that's all I can picture in my head besides pictures in books. So, one day I'll get there as well. Thank you so much for spending some time with me today. It was a pleasure just chatting channel with you. If any listener would like to reach out to you personally, maybe to dig in, ask you a few follow up questions about your experiences, what's the best way for them to get ahold of you?   David: I would say, just ping me on LinkedIn @davidbelove, BELOVE. And yeah, I'll respond that way.   Jen: All right, perfect, easy enough. Well again, thank you David. I really appreciate your time and thanks to everyone else for tuning in and we'll catch you next week for all new episode.   Narrator: Thanks for tuning in to the Allbound podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resourcecenter@allbound.com. And remember, #NeverSellAlone.

Introduction: Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards.   And now your host, Kelly Coughlin.   Kelly: Good morning. This is Kelly Coughlin. I've got David Shoemaker on the line. We’re going to do a podcast with David. He's the President of Equias Alliance.   David: Good morning.   Kelly: Good morning David. How you doing?   David: I am well.   Kelly: Just to kind of lay the foundation here I thought we’d talk very briefly about my relationship with David and Equias. As David knows, I'm a CPA. I've been in the investment and banking ecosystem for many years and as part of a consulting gig about a year and a half ago I came across the BOLI industry, the bank owned life insurance industry, and then Equias Alliance. I decided at that time, after looking at this asset class, that this is a space I wanted to get into. And I looked at the competitors, once I decided I liked the product, and decided who are the competitors, Equias, in my mind, rose above everybody else out there.     It wasn’t just me that thought that. I believe American Bankers Association selected Equias as their endorsed vendor. I think another dozen or state banking associations also selected them. Is that a fair statement?   David: Ten of them.   Kelly: Ten, clearly they emerged in my mind and in other’s mind as the key player out there. I met with David and I found him to be a key player in the industry, so I thought I'd do a podcast disclosing that I have an independent consultant relationship with David’s company, Equias. I thought we’d do a podcast and talk about first of all just give us a brief background on who you are, how you got into this space, some background and then we’ll talk about the product generally and how you got into this space and what your take is on that. You want to kick it off with some brief bio on who you are?   David: I graduated from the University of Tennessee, Knoxville with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration, with a major in accounting, then worked for Deloitte Touche for nine years and an investment banking firm for three years. Then, while I was in investment banking, one of my clients was looking at an insurance product and asked me to help evaluate it knowing that I was a CPA technical type.     I liked what I saw, but what I didn’t like was that, it had a four percent front-end load charge. I thought it was a good asset class, but if we could get rid of the load charge we could make it very viable for banks to want to use as an asset class. I've been in bank owned life insurance and nonqualified differed comp for the last twenty-seven years now. I've worked with hundreds of banks over that period of time. I live in Memphis. I have a wife and six children. There’s a lot to do on a daily basis just keeping up with the family.   Kelly: All right, taking from your statement that you saw what was going in the market, the four percent front-end load. Let's elaborate on that because my understanding based on discussion with others including yourself is that you were one of the early pioneers of crafting the product offering as it is right now. What was the need in the market at that time? Give us a general year when that was. Then, where was the gap in products available and the products needed by the bank? What did you see at that time?   David: The year was 1989. There were several products available in the market, but they all had loads of between two and four percent. That means if you purchased a million dollars of BOLI asset and you had even a two percent load that was a $20,000 initial reduction of your cash value. You’d have to reduce your earnings and capital by $20,000 per million. I saw that as a hindrance to banks wanting to buy that asset.     So my partner at the time, who was an attorney, and I decided we could go to insurance carriers and see if they could provide a product that had no-loads which would be more viable for a bank. During that process we found that there's more to it than we’d initially understood. The carriers have to pay a premium tax to the state which generally averages about two percent. Then the federal government has a tax called the DAC or Deferred Acquisition Cost tax that effectively costs around a point and a quarter.     Carriers at time were not comfortable with essentially front ending that asset to give a hundred percent credit after they paid the taxes because they would potentially lose the money if the policy didn’t remain on the books. It took a fair amount of discussion and a fair amount of time, but my partner and I were able to convince four carriers to do no-load contracts.     At that time, I guess there were two other firms that we knew of in the business. They were Bank Compensation Strategies who pioneered the business and then there was Benmark. They were the primary players in, it wasn’t called BOLI then, the bank owned life insurance market. The need for it was to find a product that was viable to banks that didn’t have these loads charges and the idea behind it, back in that day, was primarily to fund nonqualified, deferred compensation plans for management and Boards of banks.   Kelly: That was the primary need for the product, not as an investment per se, but to help fund the nonqualified benefit portion.   David: Yes, to maybe take it a step further. There were not really any regs back until 1991 that were clear as to what a bank could purchase and couldn’t purchase. They could not buy life insurance as an investment asset. They could buy it to fund specific needs. A nonqualified, deferred comp plan was widely considered to be one of those specific items that could be funded with life insurance. It was not clear at the time that you could buy life insurance to informally fund health care and 401K and other retirement benefits and group life benefits and so forth.     Even in the first regs that were issued in 1991, bank reg; I think it’s called BC249, essentially said that you can’t buy life insurance as an investment. You can buy it to offset the cost of certain benefit plans. Even then it wasn’t clear whether that covered health care and 401Ks and things like that, so the initial design of bank owned life insurance was primarily for the purpose of nonqualified deferred compensation plans.   Kelly: The regs specifically prohibited it as an alternative investment asset class. Is that mainly because of that front-end charge and regulators didn’t want to see the hit to capital?   David: That was not the reason. They just viewed life insurance as not a normal asset for a bank from an investment standpoint. It was for specific purposes, but not considered to be an investment in the same terms as Treasury’s and agencies and municipal bonds.   Kelly: Now, that has changed since those early years correct that regulatory perspective?   David: Technically no, in 1996 there was a guidance issued under OCC96-51 which specifically gave authority for a bank to buy life insurance to informally fund retirement benefits and health care. So even today you can't buy life insurance purely as an investment. You have to purchase it from a regulatory standpoint to offset and/or recover the cost of employee benefit plans.     For instance, if a bank had no employee benefit plans; if they weren’t providing health care or 401K’s or retirement plans or nonqualified plans, they really could not buy life insurance and hold onto it until the death of the insured because they would not have a valid reason under the regs to buy that life insurance.   Kelly: They could only buy like Key Man life insurance.   David: They could buy the Key Man, but when that Key Man would leave the bank they’d have to surrender the policy because there was no need for it once that key man left.   Kelly: A bank does not have to have a nonqualified benefit plan. It could just have any sort of benefit plan. It could be health insurance. It could be 401K, any sort of benefit, correct?   David: That's correct, as long as they're providing employee benefits. From experience, if a bank provides health care coverage typically the cost of health care in today’s market is so high that health care alone is enough to justify buying bank owned life insurance generally up to twenty-five percent of capital.   Kelly: Right, so do you see BOLI as primarily an alternative asset class or an insurance product with investment benefits or does it kind of depend on what the needs of the bank are?   David: I would say it depends on the needs of the bank. I'd say it probably leans more toward the alternative asset class in that you look at the features of bank owned life insurance as a tool to produce earnings that would help the bottom line and help recover employee benefit expenses. BOLI has features that are attractive from that standpoint.   Kelly: As an alternative asset class, and I know you and I've had this discussion offline a couple times, if you consider the investment features as an alternative asset class what asset class does BOLI compete against best or worst I suppose? Where do you think, if you were a bank and they liked the features and benefits of BOLI and they need as a replacement. What asset do you think it replaces best MUNI’s, agencies, loans? As I see it, it could be a loan to an insurance company. Where do you see it?   David: It's hard to say that BOLI replaces any particular investment because the features are different than all the other asset classes that are traditional for a bank. If you go down that path and talk about, for instance, BOLI versus MUNI’s there is some common characteristics in that they both have income that's not taxable that helps produce generally higher returns than most taxable asset classes.     There are a lot of differences in those two asset classes, for instance, MUNI’s generally have a fixed rate interest rate, whereas BOLI is an adjustable interest rate. The credit quality of both are high. The BOLI carriers tend to be large, very well-known, highly rated carriers, so very strong credit quality. BOLI has no mark to market in the asset, that in reporting periods whereas municipal bonds generally have to do a mark to market of capital through the OTTI adjustment. BOLI essentially doesn’t have a diminution of value when rates rise whereas municipal bonds could.     Now, from the value of municipal bonds relative to BOLI is that it's always tax-free rather than tax deferred. BOLI’s tax deferred technically, but if held until death its tax free. If you surrender a BOLI contract before maturity, before the person dies, you have a tax liability for the gain plus an extra ten percent for the it’s called a modified endowment contract penalty. BOLI effectively has minimal liquidity from the standpoint of once you buy it you intend to hold it until death, because you don’t want to incur the tax liability.     Whereas a municipal bond if you decided to sell that you would still retain all the income that you've earned to that point tax free. Sometimes banks put municipal bonds in the hold to maturity buckets so they can't really sell the bond; it becomes an illiquid asset for them as well. There's some pros and cons to each, but BOLI does hold up well generally considering the pros and cons of it to any of the asset classes.   Kelly: But, especially MUNI’s.   David: Yes, I think from that standpoint rather than one versus the other it might be some combination of the two for diversification.   Kelly: From my perspective, I see MUNI yields to get higher yield you have to extend duration, so you look at the risk of extending duration versus investing some assets in bank owned life insurance. I've only been doing this for a year now. It’s seems that like half the banks have BOLI on the balance sheet and half don’t.     From my perspective, it's kind of a CPA, risk manager, investment person I don’t really see why a bank wouldn’t max out their twenty-five percent of net capital. Now, that sounds pretty self-serving I know, but in your experience what's the single biggest reason for a bank to not include BOLI in its assets class, because there certainly is a reasonable amount of bias and hesitancy for Boards and CFO’s to get BOLI. What's the single biggest reason that you see for a bank to not include it in their asset class?   David: The stats on BOLI are that sixty percent of the banks across the country have BOLI and forty percent don’t. For banks over a hundred million it's about two-thirds that have BOLI and one-third that don’t. It’s fairly common for banks above one hundred million to have an investment in bank owned life insurance. For those that don’t, it generally falls into one of two to three reasons.     Probably the most prevalent is a bank that has high loan demand. The bank wants to make loans to its local market because that helps build franchise value. If they have high loan demands, say their loan to deposit ratio is over a hundred percent, they may not have the liquidity to hold BOLI at the current time. All their attention and all their liquidity is going into making loans. While BOLI competes with loans well on the yield side, the tax equivalent yield side, banks tend to want to have loans for building the franchise value versus owning bank owned life insurance. If they have the option, they're going it put it into loans rather than BOLI assuming they feel comfortable with the credit quality of those loans. That's probably the biggest reason.     Number two is that some banks don’t fully understand the asset, haven’t taken the time to fully understand it. The pros and cons and features of BOLI is not traditional with a lot of banks. There's this uncertainty about something that's not traditional. They may think “We haven’t done that before and I don’t want to take the time to learn pros and cons.” Maybe they’ve had a presentation and it wasn’t presented in a way that made it clear what the pros and cons are. They maybe saw it as too much of a sales push instead of laying out all the pros and all the cons kind of thing.     Keep in mind that for BOLI to be approved by a bank it generally requires a hundred percent agreement, meaning you must have the CFO of the bank, the CEO of the bank and usually everybody on the Board to be in unison that they want to buy BOLI. You can have one person dissent out of ten, for instance, and that could keep it from happening.   Kelly: Why is unanimity required?   David: It’s not required. It's just generally the way it is. First off, if you don’t have the CEO and CFO on board it probably won't go to the Board. You need both of them. The Board, they normally just don’t want BOLI to be something that causes dissention among the Board members. That's not always the case, but typically they need all Board members or at least eighty to ninety percent approval before they would invest in the asset. I haven’t really run into it, but I don’t think you’ll see BOLI being approved on a five to four vote.   Kelly: Yeah, but that would be true with just about any asset class. Let's say the bank wanted to, the CFO proposed extending duration. Don’t you think that unanimity would be expected or the same standard would be expected for that decision to extend municipal bond duration versus like in a BOLI decision?   David: Yes, I would think so. On investments they have their investment policy that's been approved by the Board and that decision would have to be made within the investment policy about extending duration. Yes, I would think you would need a very high approval rate of the Board members before you would change the investment the policy to do something that effectively increases the risk.   Kelly: Do you see BOLI as being subject to…say within the scope of the banks investment policy in your experience?   David: No, BOLI has its own policy. One of the requirements under the regs is that you have to have a BOLI policy before you can purchase it. You would establish a bank owned life insurance policy; in a sense it's an investment policy for BOLI all to its own. It explains within the policy the bank’s view of BOLI; the percentage of capital that the bank would be willing to purchase; the percent to any one carrier; the due diligence that would be done before purchase; carrier selection; vendor selection. How would they go about deciding which carriers, which vendors and so forth? That all has to be documented in a policy before the bank can even go about purchasing a BOLI product.   Kelly: The bank either includes that as a chapter within the investment policy or they have it as its own separate investment policy.   David: I have pretty much only seen it as its own separate policy. If they include it within the investment policy it would be its own chapter. It's fairly lengthy. It's usually ten - fifteen pages of policy all to itself.   Kelly: How has the industry changed since the early years?   David: In the early years, I guess from a salesperson’s standpoint the hard part was to get a bank to talk to you about BOLI because it just wasn’t common and owning life insurance as an asset was not normal. It was outside the box and a lot of bankers didn’t want to discuss doing something that was outside the box. The biggest hurdle was getting the audience.     Today, most banks know about BOLI so they've heard about it and they have had many, many sales calls about it. Other banks they know have purchased it, so they understand at least the term and what it is. Now, there are just a whole lot of sales calls from insurance sales folks asking about BOLI. They're aware of it. It's just very, very competitive and maybe difficult for the bankers to understand the difference in firm A versus firm B.     The other way that's changed, when I started doing this the only products available were what's called general account products where the carrier provides a universal life insurance product or some whole life products that have an interest rate or dividend rate. Then the main risk to the bank was a carrier’s credit whether the carrier would be able to pay the claim later. Today, you have not only general account which are still very popular, but since then there's been a lot of purchases of what is called hybrid separate account products and also variable separate account products.     Variable separate account products are where the assets are segregated from creditors somewhat like a mutual fund. The bank can choose to invest the money within a particular investment bucket; although, for a bank it as to be eligible investments unless it's used as a hedge against a deferred comp plan. Those have some higher risk features, a little bit more moving parts. They have a stable value wrap sold by a registered product or private placement memorandum and so they're more complicated. Most community banks shy away from those because of the complications and the mark to market within the portfolio.     Then, there's a hybrid separate account product that has features very much like a general account. It has an added credit enhancement that if the carrier were to ever become insolvent the assets within the separate account by legal definitions are segregated from creditors of the insurance carrier so that those assets would only be available to the policy holders. These new asset classes have been pretty popular and have essentially enhanced the options for banks to buy bank owned life insurance.   Kelly: The first generation of BOLI was the general account, no-load product and then the second generation would be some of these the hybrid accounts and some of these more sophisticated product structures. But the core concept was the same, right?   David: That's correct, basically similar structure from a standpoint of no loads, no surrender charges, single premium, just a difference in the chassis if you will.   Kelly: Right, the risk sharing to a certain extent, right, because was the separate account available back then in the early years?   David: You could buy a separate account that was called variable universal life. It was a shelf product, but banks really didn’t buy it then because you had mark to market. Say it was all in a bond fund but the interest rates went up and the value of the bond fund went down five percent you’d have to take an immediate mark to market on your balance sheet and income statement. That was not very attractive to a buyer. If you're a bank you don’t want that kind of volatility on your income statement.   Kelly: Even though that's the nature of a municipal bond portfolio, they have to mark those.   David: A municipal bond portfolio they mark to market, but not through the income statement. They mark to market through the capital account.   Kelly: Right.   David: It doesn’t flow through income.   Kelly: Right.   David: Whereas if you were to do the same thing in a variable universal life insurance contract and have that mark to market risk you’d have to mark that through your income statement because the cash value is changing.   Kelly: One of the things that I noticed about Equias, again this sounds somewhat self-serving, but I’ll say it anyway. This relates to the industry changes. When I see Equias, it just seems to be a highly professional organization. I think eighteen consultants and thirty some support personnel and I believe seven CPAs and a bunch of attorneys, MBA’s that kind of thing. It just seems that one of the things that appears to have happened with Equias having emerged as the key player is the element of professional consulting capabilities versus I would suspect in the early years, and currently, many of potentially our competitors, it's mainly a bunch of insurance guys, right, trying to sell product?  I would think in the early years that's what it was all about, insurance guys trying to sell insurance to a new market…banks.   David: Yes, there was a lot of that. The business model that Equias developed was this is not an area that banks have a lot of expertise in and that they need support services so that they can spend a minimal amount of their time dealing with the technical stuff and don’t have to pay a lot to CPA firms and law firms to help them through the process.     We set up the firm with the idea that we could provide those services at costs that are competitive with anybody in the marketplace. Through volume we could provide more services and all the technical services that a bank would need, but do it in a very cost effective way. That’s where we actually have eight CPAs and two attorneys and a former OCC regulator, former bankers, bank directors, and a former head of the BOLI area for one of the major insurance carriers.     We've staffed our firm with very, very experienced, competent, technical people including the consultants are all very experienced, so that we could be a real asset to the banks. It'd be hard for our competitors to match our knowledge and experience and to duplicate what we can do.   Kelly: One of the things that got my attention was I think you're one of the few that has a SOC 1, Type 2 audit. Not many insurance “agencies” have that kind of thing going on. That was a good plus in my mind with you guys.   David: Yeah, it covers our implementation process, as well as our administration process, and covers not only the BOLI side of it, but covers the nonqualified benefits side. We’ve set up internal controls when we established the company and we followed those controls. We've been able to go through the audit process very efficiently and effectively.   Kelly: I’ll probably be criticized for this being an infomercial for Equias, but what the heck. That's what we can do. All right let's finish with one final thing. I’ll give you the choice. This is a question I ask every guest either your favorite quote or, what I like the best, is tell us what one of the stupidest things you’ve said or done in your business career.   David: One of the early days in my career I remember having gone to this bank to explain BOLI and the nonqualified plans probably for the seventh or eighth time. Some of the Board members were wearing out with me coming back almost it seemed like every month. One of the Board members, who was an attorney, when I came back this time she just looked and “Oh no, not you again.” I said, “Yeah.” She said, “Look, if I vote for this, does that mean you won't come back and you'll leave us alone?” I said, ‘You’ve got my word on that.” I guess in that case persistence paid off.   Kelly: It's good, yeah.   David: It wasn’t one of those real positive “I'm glad to see you” kind of moments.   Kelly: That's right; you got the deal done though.   David: Yeah, I was able to get it done through persistence, not through the sales process really.   Kelly: Yeah, that's good. All right, David, thanks for your time. I appreciate it.   We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC;  and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant.   Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States.  The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.  

This episode of What Would We Do, delves into Fashion retailers in Australia and the USA. It reverse engineers what these Fashion brands are doing and references several new ideas that all Fashion retailers, high street and online, should consider and can use to boost sales. David Twigg and Chris Bugden deliver an insightful discussion that will inspire you and arm you with new ideas. For more information or to contact David or Chris please go to http://whatwouldwedo.com.au JINGLE: Broadcasting from sunny Brisbane,Queensland, Australia. You are listening to Chris Bugden and David Twigg and the What Would We Do Podcast. Chris: Hi guys Chris Bugden here. Myself and David Twigg here and our mission is to help inspire ideas for your company. Each episode we will be delving into one specific marketplace and reverse engineering what some big players are doing as well as imparting our knowledge wisdom from the campaigns we've been involved in and books and podcasts we've read. David: Yes between us we've been working in sales and marketing for many years and we both love discussing business so we aim to inspire you. Today we are going to delve into What we would do if we were starting a fashion brand. What things we would consider adopting from established brands and what could we do better. chris: Yes retailing is at the heart of any economy, we all need to buy things and we all need to buy clothes though the importance of fashion seems to be growing exponentially even amongst generations that historically haven't hadn't bothered. David: Yep my 7 year old son is a lot more concious of what he wears than i ever was and his 5 year old brother is now in tune to what he likes and doesn't like. At the same token the generation of my parents are frequently dressing sharply, so brands like Ralph Lauren now have the 70+ generation as one of their marketing avatars. Chris: So David you've been digging into the online presence of 3 modern fashion brands, what sort of things did you find out? David: Yes Chris so i used some of our tools we use to reverse engineer client accounts as well as the competition of clients. I focused on 3 brands. The Iconic has really become one of the big success stories of Australian fashion in the last few years but has focused purely online. Lorna jane and Lululemon are fighting in a very similar space to each other and so i thought a comparison of how they are doing it would make a good case study. All 3 companies Lorna Jane and The iconic were featured in Smart Company's top 20 retailers of 2015. This is what they said about Lorna Jane: Now in its 25th year, active wear retail brand Lorna Jane continues to enjoy rapid growth, especially when it comes to online sales. Online sales for Lorna Jane grew by more than 30% in the past 12 months and now accounts for 14% of the company’s total turnover. The retailer has also amassed a big social media following, with more than one million fans on Facebook alone. Lorna Jane is on track to hit $200 million in revenue this year, which is no doubt also fuelled by the addition of 40 new international bricks-and-mortar outlets to its network in the past 12 months. A partnership with US fashion chain Nordstrom, announced this month, will extend the reach of this homegrown brand even further. This what they said about the iconic: One of the newer players on the Australian retail scene, fashion marketplace The Iconic continues to punch above its weight. Founded in 2011, The Iconic has previously secured multi-million dollar funding rounds, including a $28 million boost in mid-July 2013, and more recently has focused on adding top international brands to its stable of Australian designers, including UK high street label Brand New. The Iconic has amassed an impressive 500,000 Facebook fans and more than 80,000 followers on Instagram. In 2013, the retailer turned over $31 million. What Smart Company didn't mention is that the iconic is part of huge online fashion retail group called GFG which combined lost $235 million last year though sales are growing rapidly and losses shrinking. So let's get into what i found about The Iconic. The iconic 1.2 million visits per month Time on Site Page views 10.59 bounce rate 26.49% 49.45% traffic from search 89% organic-11% paid 3.29% traffic from social (81.7% FB,7.4% YouTube) 14.76% traffic from referrals(311 referring sites) Their Fb has very low engagement 588k likes typical post gets 3-50 likes Content marketing - Limited.....no story focus.....only promotional. Affiliate marketing = Strong Instagram FREE TO JOIN! Default commission up to 16% (average basket value $120). Individual commission and special rates for top sellers. Exclusive vouchercodes available. We offer a wide range of static and dynamic banners, an automatically updated product feed and a range of coupon codes and special promotions. We are happy to design custom creatives and newsletter templates on request. Our program has a high conversion rate of 7%, 30 days cookie and all valid transactions approved within 30 days. Quick and personal support from THE ICONIC Affiliate Team. Lorna jane vs lululemon Lorna Jane 150,000 visits per month 05.02 mins time on site 5.24 page views bounce rate 34.51% search 41.41%(93% organic 7% paid) social 2.25% direct 37.64% referrals 17.62% (from 101 sites) FB engagement 1.2 million likes 20-200 likes per post...ok but should be more One area of controversy is how Lorna Jane are managing their Facebook presence. They seem to have an overall brand page and a page for every store as well. I think that particular conundrum is a tricky one because often resources don't allow running hundreds of pages effectively and in fact largely they just upload one post to all the store pages. If each store were to run independant promotions or have unique lines i can see why they would run independant pages. Also particularly if they were to run local competitions or feature local content then that would definitely be a strong strategy however they aren't from what i can see they are spreading themselves very thin, detracting from the main brand page and not capitalising on the Facebook infastructure they have developed. Now onto their content marketing and this is definitely one of their secret weapons. They run a blog on a separate domain called MoveNourishBelieve.com there is a Stunning Branded video ad as a popup optin when you land on the site it really captures the essence and brand values of Lorna Jane and no doubt inspires their target market. I haven't seen that done as well as that before but i suspect it's a very effective way of developing their email database to compliment that effort through their online store and physical stores. MoveNourishBelieve.com publishes stories, linking to lorna jane shop with simple product images and prices It gets 50k visits per month av page time 02.28 avg pages 2.42 Bounce rate 66.16% ONLY 48% Of Audience in Australia(eg 22% in USA) Top posts: Build A Booty with Base Body Babes - Move Nourish Believe : 198k shares 7 days of no-fuss dinners, download your menu now - Move Nourish Believe : 10.6k shares Why colouring in could curb your stress - Move Nourish Believe : 4.9k #IAMWOMAN - ERIN MCNAUGHT - Move Nourish Believe : 4.5k I really think lorna jane is ahead of the game here in developing an independant online property that cross promotes their products. My only concern is that editorially they aren't quite hitting the nail on the head. That said the ultimate purpose of the site is to send users to another site, ie the lorna jane store, so a bounce rate of 66% is probably what they ideally want. affilate marketing - mediocre The Lorna Jane Pty Ltd affiliate program offers industry-leading technology, expert craftsmanship, and hi-tech performance fabrics to activewear for women. The brand represents a global movement of women living their best, most beautiful lives through active living. Lululemon 60,000 visits per month 04.47 time on site 7.14 page views bounce rate 23.65% search 48.26% social 2.2%(FB 53%,Pinterest 14%, Youtube 14%, Twitter 12%) direct 27.22% referrals 19.91% (from 33 sites mostly own sites overseas) FB engagement 1.3 million likes, 10-300 likes per post = higher than lorna jane(? because they don't have FB pages for each store rather one brand page and then city focused pages Content marketing (blog subdomain) beginner one-week meditation challenge: podcast #3 ; 2.2k shares exercise anywhere : 1.8k beginner one-week meditation challenge: podcast #1 : 970 shares running meditation : 746 shares yoga for sports : 743 shares Affiliate marketing - no obvious plan So that's what i found out about 3 high profile fashion retailers. So, Chris if we were setting up a fashion brand from an online angle there would be a few learnings i would be considering: 1. Content marketing : learn from lorna Jane, crafting stories and embeding promotion but using social media to develop virality. I really don't think they are using Facebook that well to both cross promote their MoveNourishbelieve.com content or their status update content which should be less promotional anyway.They seem to be way more active on Instragram interestingly, with 645,000 followers and average posts geting 4000-8000 likes. Clearly engagement is easier for them through Instagram so i can see why they would use it more but connecting Instagram to other online property is a lot harder than on Facebook in other words converting instagram traffic. 2. Develop an affiliate program and make an effort to engage bloggers to promote your products. The Iconic have a very good affilaite program and i imagine are developing lots of referral channels simply by focusing on providing value to affiliates. 3. Don't use Facebook just to promote products. Read Gary vaynerchuck's book, Jab, Jab, Right Hook and understand that promotion is far more powerful when woven in amongst a story. i think all 3 brands are partially guilty here. Stories that the target market relate to are where the viral wins occur. So keep jabbing with non to light promotion and then insert a right hook with a promo, is for me the key strategy. 4. Regarding your website focus clearly on the navigation, consider the way Coles and Woolworths have planned their grocery aisles in a specific way to encourage shoppers to maximise spend. Think of the store as a maze and this is the pathway an ideal prospect would take, how can we make that easier by reducing any friction incurred on that journey. 5. An abandon cart strategy is an absolute no brainer. Every single day users in the droves get buyers remorse after filling out an order form but just choke or get distracted at the buy now button. They need to be reminded and have their hand held back to the checkout as they have demonstrated they want to buy. So that's my take on the online fashion world, Chris. I have been of the believe for many years that Westfield and all the major shopping mall owners are on a slippery slope to the bottom. Yet in the states the physical store showroom model is starting to get plenty of traction, which i find fascinating. I think you've delved into a brand called the Bonobos Guideshop.