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Welcome to another episode of the Sales Leadership Show! Today, we have a special guest, Richard Weylman, who will be sharing his insights on how to keep customers for life. Richard is the author of "100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life," released on March 12th. Join us as Richard discusses his proven path for permanent business success and shares invaluable advice from his extensive experience in consulting, coaching, and speaking.You can listen above, or read the show notes that follow.Who is Richard Weylman?Phil: Richard, welcome to the show! Let's start with a bit about you and your latest book. What's the best advice you've received in your career?Richard: Thanks, Phil. My book, 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life, is designed to put businesses on a proven path to success. The best advice I ever got was from someone who said, "Richard, you see things from the consumer's point of view, you should market that." This advice has shaped my 30-year career in consulting and coaching. Conversely, the worst advice I received was that I could speak to anyone, anytime, anywhere, about anything. That experience taught me to focus on my strengths – understanding the consumer and turning insights into prescriptive tactics.The Importance of Consumer Perspective:Phil: Congratulations on your book, Richard! It's fantastic. Tell me, who gave you that pivotal advice 30 years ago?Richard: It was Howard Van Bortle, the dealer principal when I was the general sales manager at a Rolls-Royce dealership. He recognized my ability to see things from the consumer's perspective, which has been a cornerstone of my career.Building a Customer-Centric Business:Phil: How do you get in front of customers to ask the right questions?Richard: Through our consulting, speaking, and coaching engagements, I've had the privilege to talk to consumers across various industries. The key is to ask what turns them into delighted advocates and what merely satisfies them. It became clear that satisfaction isn't enough; we need to elevate the experience and build emotional engagement.Elevating the Customer Experience:Phil: What does it mean to "elevate the experience"?Richard: Elevating the experience means consistently demonstrating thoughtfulness, kindness, caring, and empathy. It's about humanizing and personalizing every interaction. These qualities turn satisfied customers into delighted advocates and brand ambassadors.Practical Steps to Elevate the Experience:Phil: Can you break down the practical steps to elevate the experience?Richard: Absolutely. Simple changes like how you sign your emails or addressing customers by their preferred name can make a big difference. Instead of "Best," use "Warm regards." Instead of "Feel free to call," say "Feel welcome to call." These small gestures show thoughtfulness and care.Staying in Touch with Customers:Phil: How do businesses stay in touch with customers effectively?Richard: Logging customer interactions in a CRM system is crucial. Celebrate anniversaries, send personalized messages, and make customers feel valued. For example, a doughnut shop in Sarasota sends annual texts to customers celebrating their loyalty. Real estate agents can send cakes with personalized messages to clients' workplaces, making them feel appreciated and remembered.The Power of Thoughtfulness:Phil: It's not about the cake or the doughnut but the thoughtfulness behind it, right?Richard: Exactly, Phil. It's the thoughtfulness, kindness, and empathy that make customers feel valued. These actions show that you care and help build long-term relationships.Implementing Customer-Centric Strategies:Phil: How do businesses implement these strategies effectively?Richard: Start with a 90-day plan, focusing on a few key changes. Assess where you are and set specific steps for improvement. Tools and templates from my book can help guide this process. It's about adopting a mindset of giving rather than getting.Mindset Shift for Success:Phil: How do we help businesses shift their mindset to prioritize customer-centric strategies?Richard: It's about realizing that by giving – whether it's thoughtful communication or personalized gestures – you build stronger relationships. Bob Burg, who wrote "The Go-Giver," emphasizes this point: giving leads to greater opportunities and success.Conclusion:Phil: Friends, if you want to keep customers for life, focus on thoughtfulness, care, kindness, and empathy. Richard's book, 100 Proven Ways to Acquire and Keep Clients for Life, is a must-read. You can find it at any bookstore or on Richard's website, richardweylman.com. Remember, implementing these strategies will transform your customer relationships and business success. You've read the notes, now watch the video below. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit happyaf.substack.com/subscribe

Richard: Yes, not very nice. 理查德：是的，不太好。Jackie: Well, some are nicer than others but some are very unpleasant. Um… the laundry, Richard. 杰姬：嗯，有些比其他的好一些，但有些非常不愉快。那个……洗衣服，理查德。Richard: Yes, washing the clothes. 理查德：是的，洗衣服。Jackie: Not too bad. 杰姬：不算太糟。Richard: Very easy, we have a washing machine. 理查德：非常简单，我们有洗衣机。Jackie: So, actually we're not really doing that, are we? 杰姬：所以，实际上我们并没有真正做那些，是吧？Richard: No [Jackie laughs] put it in the washing machine and then but then, drying. 理查德：没有（杰姬笑了），把衣服放进洗衣机里，然后，烘干。Jackie: Yes, we don't have a tumble dryer so… 杰姬：是的，我们没有烘干机，所以……Richard: We have to hang the laundry out. 理查德：我们必须把衣服晾出去。Jackie: Yes 杰姬：是的Richard: Um… and then [laughs] ironing. 理查德：嗯……然后是（笑）熨衣服。Jackie: Well, we have an ironing board and we have an iron but in fact, Richard, neither of us do the ironing, do we? 杰姬：我们有熨衣板和熨斗，但实际上，理查德，我们俩都不熨衣服，是吧？Richard: No, now I don't have an office job I don't need to iron my shirts. 理查德：不，现在我没有办公室工作了，我不需要熨衬衫了。Jackie: Yes. Er… and another rather boring chore, Richard, is that's the dusting, isn't it? 杰姬：是的。还有一个相当无聊的家务，理查德，是掸灰尘，对吧？Richard: Yes, I don't like the dusting. 理查德：是的，我不喜欢掸灰尘。Jackie: We have a nice feather duster. [both laugh] It's just a bit boring. I think I do that more than you. 杰姬：我们有一个漂亮的鸡毛掸子。（两人都笑了）只是有点无聊。我觉得我比你做得更多。Richard: Yes, you do the dusting and I do the hoovering. 理查德：是的，你掸灰尘，我吸尘。Jackie: Yes, I don't know why I don't like the hoovering. I think it's because of the noise. 杰姬：是的，我不知道为什么我不喜欢吸尘。我想是因为噪音。Richard: It's very, very noisy. Yes, I don't mind that. And the other thing I don't really mind doing too much is the washing-up. As you do all the cooking I feel I have to do the washing-up. 理查德：非常，非常吵。是的，我不介意。还有一件我不太介意做的事是洗碗。因为你做所有的饭菜，我觉得我必须洗碗。Jackie: Yes, we um… we don't have a dishwasher, do we? 杰姬：是的，我们没有洗碗机，对吧？Richard: No dishwasher. 理查德：没有洗碗机。Jackie: So you… you do it all by hand. 杰姬：所以你……你全都手洗。Richard: Exactly 理查德：没错。Jackie: But that's not too bad. 杰姬：但那不算太糟。Richard: No, not at all. I don't find it too bad, after a good meal. 理查德：不，一点也不。我觉得这不算太糟，在吃了一顿好饭之后。Jackie: [laughs] And then there actually… there are some things we have to do every day, some chores that we have to do every day, but actually are quite nice. 杰姬：（笑）然后其实……我们每天都有一些必须做的事情，一些必须做的家务，但实际上是挺好的。Richard: [laughs] With our animals. 理查德：（笑）和我们的动物。Jackie: Yes, one of those is taking the dog for a walk. 杰姬：是的，其中一件事是遛狗。Richard: I take the dog for a walk, er… well actually the dog takes me for a walk, um… and often I just throw the ball just to make sure she gets lots of exercise. 理查德：我带狗去散步，嗯……实际上是狗带我去散步，嗯……我经常扔球，以确保她得到足够的锻炼。Jackie: But you do that quite a few times during the day. 杰姬：但是你一天中会做几次。Richard: Yes, two or three times a day. 理查德：是的，一天两到三次。Jackie: Mmm, and the thing that I do um… usually, and that's feeding the chickens. 杰姬：嗯，而我通常做的事情是喂鸡。Richard: [laughs] Yes, I do that occasionally as well. So, those are our daily chores and I think, Jackie, it's your turn to get out and feed those chickens. 理查德：（笑）是的，我偶尔也会做。所以，那些是我们的日常家务，我想，杰姬，现在轮到你出去喂那些鸡了。

Richard Seroter, Director of Outbound Product Management at Google, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss what's new at Google. Corey and Richard discuss how AI can move from a novelty to truly providing value, as well as the importance of people maintaining their skills and abilities rather than using AI as a black box solution. Richard also discusses how he views the DevRel function, and why he feels it's so critical to communicate expectations for product launches with customers. About RichardRichard Seroter is Director of Outbound Product Management at Google Cloud. He's also an instructor at Pluralsight, a frequent public speaker, and the author of multiple books on software design and development. Richard maintains a regularly updated blog (seroter.com) on topics of architecture and solution design and can be found on Twitter as @rseroter. Links Referenced: Google Cloud: https://cloud.google.com Personal website: https://seroter.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/rseroter LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seroter/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Human-scale teams use Tailscale to build trusted networks. Tailscale Funnel is a great way to share a local service with your team for collaboration, testing, and experimentation.  Funnel securely exposes your dev environment at a stable URL, complete with auto-provisioned TLS certificates. Use it from the command line or the new VS Code extensions. In a few keystrokes, you can securely expose a local port to the internet, right from the IDE.I did this in a talk I gave at Tailscale Up, their first inaugural developer conference. I used it to present my slides and only revealed that that's what I was doing at the end of it. It's awesome, it works! Check it out!Their free plan now includes 3 users & 100 devices. Try it at snark.cloud/tailscalescream Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. We have returning guest Richard Seroter here who has apparently been collecting words to add to his job title over the years that we've been talking to him. Richard, you are now the Director of Product Management and Developer Relations at Google Cloud. Do I have all those words in the correct order and I haven't forgotten any along the way?Richard: I think that's all right. I think my first job was at Anderson Consulting as an analyst, so my goal is to really just add more words to whatever these titles—Corey: It's an adjective collection, really. That's what a career turns into. It's really the length of a career and success is measured not by accomplishments but by word count on your resume.Richard: If your business card requires a comma, success.Corey: So, it's been about a year or so since we last chatted here. What have you been up to?Richard: Yeah, plenty of things here, still, at Google Cloud as we took on developer relations. And, but you know, Google Cloud proper, I think AI has—I don't know if you've noticed, AI has kind of taken off with some folks who's spending a lot the last year… juicing up services and getting things ready there. And you know, myself and the team kind of remaking DevRel for a 2023 sort of worldview. So, yeah we spent the last year just scaling and growing and in covering some new areas like AI, which has been fun.Corey: You became profitable, which is awesome. I imagined at some point, someone wound up, like, basically realizing that you need to, like, patch the hole in the pipe and suddenly the water bill is no longer $8 billion a quarter. And hey, that works super well. Like, wow, that explains our utility bill and a few other things as well. I imagine the actual cause is slightly more complex than that, but I am a simple creature.Richard: Yeah. I think we made more than YouTube last quarter, which was a good milestone when you think of—I don't think anybody who says Google Cloud is a fun side project of Google is talking seriously anymore.Corey: I misunderstood you at first. I thought you said that you're pretty sure you made more than I did last year. It's like, well, yes, if a multi-billion dollar company's hyperscale cloud doesn't make more than I personally do, then I have many questions. And if I make more than that, I have a bunch of different questions, all of which could be terrifying to someone.Richard: You're killing it. Yeah.Corey: I'm working on it. So, over the last year, another trend that's emerged has been a pivot away—thankfully—from all of the Web3 nonsense and instead embracing the sprinkle some AI on it. And I'm not—people are about to listen to this and think, wait a minute, is he subtweeting my company? No, I'm subtweeting everyone's company because it seems to be a universal phenomenon. What's your take on it?Richard: I mean, it's countercultural now to not start every conversation with let me tell you about our AI story. And hopefully, we're going to get past this cycle. I think the AI stuff is here to stay. This does not feel like a hype trend to me overall. Like, this is legit tech with real user interest. I think that's awesome.I don't think a year from now, we're going to be competing over who has the biggest model anymore. Nobody cares. I don't know if we're going to hopefully lead with AI the same way as much as, what is it doing for me? What is my experience? Is it better? Can I do this job better? Did you eliminate this complex piece of toil from my day two stuff? That's what we should be talking about. But right now it's new and it's interesting. So, we all have to rub some AI on it.Corey: I think that there is also a bit of a passing of the buck going on when it comes to AI where I've talked to companies that are super excited about how they have this new AI story that's going to be great. And, “Well, what does it do?” “It lets you query our interface to get an answer.” Okay, is this just cover for being bad UX?Richard: [laugh]. That can be true in some cases. In other cases, this will fix UXes that will always be hard. Like, do we need to keep changing… I don't know, I'm sure if you and I go to our favorite cloud providers and go through their documentation, it's hard to have docs for 200 services and millions of pages. Maybe AI will fix some of that and make it easier to discover stuff.So in some cases, UIs are just hard at scale. But yes, I think in some cases, this papers over other things not happening by just rubbing some AI on it. Hopefully, for most everybody else, it's actually interesting, new value. But yeah, that's a… every week it's a new press release from somebody saying they're about to launch some AI stuff. I don't know how any normal human is keeping up with it.Corey: I certainly don't know. I'm curious to see what happens but it's kind of wild, too, because there you're right. There is something real there where you ask it to draw you a picture of a pony or something and it does, or give me a bunch of random analysis of this. I asked one recently to go ahead and rank the US presidents by absorbency and with a straight face, it did it, which is kind of amazing. I feel like there's a lack of imagination in the way that people talk about these things and a certain lack of awareness that you can make this a lot of fun, and in some ways, make that a better showcase of the business value than trying to do the straight-laced thing of having it explain Microsoft Excel to you.Richard: I think that's fair. I don't know how much sometimes whimsy and enterprise mix. Sometimes that can be a tricky part of the value prop. But I'm with you this some of this is hopefully returns to some more creativity of things. I mean, I personally use things like Bard or what have you that, “Hey, I'm trying to think of this idea. Can you give me some suggestions?” Or—I just did a couple weeks ago—“I need sample data for my app.”I could spend the next ten minutes coming up with Seinfeld and Bob's Burgers characters, or just give me the list in two seconds in JSON. Like that's great. So, I'm hoping we get to use this for more fun stuff. I'll be fascinated to see if when I write the keynote for—I'm working on the keynote for Next, if I can really inject something completely off the wall. I guess you're challenging me and I respect that.Corey: Oh, I absolutely am. And one of the things that I believe firmly is that we lose sight of the fact that people are inherently multifaceted. Just because you are a C-level executive at an enterprise does not mean that you're not also a human being with a sense of creativity and a bit of whimsy as well. Everyone is going to compete to wind up boring you to death with PowerPoint. Find something that sparks the imagination and sparks joy.Because yes, you're going to find the boring business case on your own without too much in the way of prodding for that, but isn't it great to imagine what if? What if we could have fun with some of these things? At least to me, that's always been the goal is to get people's attention. Humor has been my path, but there are others.Richard: I'm with you. I think there's a lot to that. And the question will be… yeah, I mean, again, to me, you and I talked about this before we started recording, this is the first trend for me in a while that feels purely organic where our customers, now—and I'll tell our internal folks—our customers have much better ideas than we do. And it's because they're doing all kinds of wild things. They're trying new scenarios, they're building apps purely based on prompts, and they're trying to, you know, do this.And it's better than what we just come up with, which is awesome. That's how it should be, versus just some vendor-led hype initiative where it is just boring corporate stuff. So, I like the fact that this isn't just us talking; it's the whole industry talking. It's people talking to my non-technical family members, giving me ideas for what they're using this stuff for. I think that's awesome. So yeah, but I'm with you, I think companies can also look for more creative angles than just what's another way to left-align something in a cell.Corey: I mean, some of the expressions on this are wild to me. The Photoshop beta with its generative AI play has just been phenomenal. Because it's weird stuff, like, things that, yeah, I'm never going to be a great artist, let's be clear, but being able to say remove this person from the background, and it does it, as best I can tell, seamlessly is stuff where yeah, that would have taken me ages to find someone who knows what the hell they're doing on the internet somewhere and then pay them to do it. Or basically stumble my way through it for two hours and it somehow looks worse afterwards than before I started. It's the baseline stuff of, I'm never going to be able to have it—to my understanding—go ahead just build me a whole banner ad that does this and hit these tones and the rest, but it is going to help me refine something in that direction, until I can then, you know, hand it to a professional who can take it from my chicken scratching into something real.Richard: If it will. I think that's my only concern personally with some of this is I don't want this to erase expertise or us to think we can just get lazy. I think that I get nervous, like, can I just tell it to do stuff and I don't even check the output, or I don't do whatever. So, I think that's when you go back to, again, enterprise use cases. If this is generating code or instructions or documentation or what have you, I need to trust that output in some way.Or more importantly, I still need to retain the skills necessary to check it. So, I'm hoping people like you and me and all our —every—all the users out there of this stuff, don't just offload responsibility to the machine. Like, just always treat it like a kind of slightly drunk friend sitting next to you with good advice and always check it out.Corey: It's critical. I think that there's a lot of concern—and I'm not saying that people are wrong on this—but that people are now going to let it take over their jobs, it's going to wind up destroying industries. No, I think it's going to continue to automate things that previously required human intervention. But this has been true since the Industrial Revolution, where opportunities arise and old jobs that used to be critical are no longer centered in quite the same way. The one aspect that does concern me is not that kids are going to be used to cheat on essays like, okay, great, whatever. That seems to be floated mostly by academics who are concerned about the appropriate structure of academia.For me, the problem is, is there's a reason that we have people go through 12 years of English class in the United States and that is, it's not to dissect of the work of long-dead authors. It's to understand how to write and how to tell us a story and how to frame ideas cohesively. And, “The computer will do that for me,” I feel like that potentially might not serve people particularly well. But as a counterpoint, I was told when I was going to school my entire life that you're never going to have a calculator in your pocket all the time that you need one. No, but I can also speak now to the open air, ask it any math problem I can imagine, and get a correct answer spoken back to me. That also wasn't really in the bingo card that I had back then either, so I am a hesitant to try and predict the future.Richard: Yeah, that's fair. I think it's still important for a kid that I know how to make change or do certain things. I don't want to just offload to calculators or—I want to be able to understand, as you say, literature or things, not just ever print me out a book report. But that happens with us professionals, too, right? Like, I don't want to just atrophy all of my programming skills because all I'm doing is accepting suggestions from the machine, or that it's writing my emails for me. Like, that still weirds me out a little bit. I like to write an email or send a tweet or do a summary. To me, I enjoy those things still. I don't want to—that's not toil to me. So, I'm hoping that we just use this to make ourselves better and we don't just use it to make ourselves lazier.Corey: You mentioned a few minutes ago that you are currently working on writing your keynote for Next, so I'm going to pretend, through a vicious character attack here, that this is—you know, it's 11 o'clock at night, the day before the Next keynote and you found new and exciting ways to procrastinate, like recording a podcast episode with me. My question for you is, how is this Next going to be different than previous Nexts?Richard: Hmm. Yeah, I mean, for the first time in a while it's in person, which is wonderful. So, we'll have a bunch of folks at Moscone in San Francisco, which is tremendous. And I [unintelligible 00:11:56] it, too, I definitely have online events fatigue. So—because absolutely no one has ever just watched the screen entirely for a 15 or 30 or 60-minute keynote. We're all tabbing over to something else and multitasking. And at least when I'm in the room, I can at least pretend I'll be paying attention the whole time. The medium is different. So, first off, I'm just excited—Corey: Right. It feels a lot ruder to get up and walk out of the front row in the middle of someone's talk. Now, don't get me wrong, I'll still do it because I'm a jerk, but I'll feel bad about it as I do. I kid, I kid. But yeah, a tab away is always a thing. And we seem to have taken the same structure that works in those events and tried to force it into more or less a non-interactive Zoom call, and I feel like that is just very hard to distinguish.I will say that Google did a phenomenal job of online events, given the constraints it was operating under. Production value is great, the fact that you took advantage of being in different facilities was awesome. But yeah, it'll be good to be back in person again. I will be there with bells on in Moscone myself, mostly yelling at people, but you know, that's what I do.Richard: It's what you do. But we missed that hallway track. You missed this sort of bump into people. Do hands-on labs, purposely have nothing to do where you just walk around the show floor. Like we have been missing, I think, society-wise, a little bit of just that intentional boredom. And so, sometimes you need at conference events, too, where you're like, “I'm going to skip that next talk and just see what's going on around here.” That's awesome. You should do that more often.So, we're going to have a lot of spaces for just, like, go—like, 6000 square feet of even just going and looking at demos or doing hands-on stuff or talking with other people. Like that's just the fun, awesome part. And yeah, you're going to hear a lot about AI, but plenty about other stuff, too. Tons of announcements. But the key is that to me, community stuff, learn from each other stuff, that energy in person, you can't replicate that online.Corey: So, an area that you have expanded into has been DevRel, where you've always been involved with it, let's be clear, but it's becoming a bit more pronounced. And as an outsider, I look at Google Cloud's DevRel presence and I don't see as much of it as your staffing levels would indicate, to the naive approach. And let's be clear, that means from my perspective, all public-facing humorous, probably performative content in different ways, where you have zany music videos that, you know, maybe, I don't know, parody popular songs do celebrate some exec's birthday they didn't know was coming—[fake coughing]. Or creative nonsense on social media. And the the lack of seeing a lot of that could in part be explained by the fact that social media is wildly fracturing into a bunch of different islands which, on balance, is probably a good thing for the internet, but I also suspect it comes down to a common misunderstanding of what DevRel actually is.It turns out that, contrary to what many people wanted to believe in the before times, it is not getting paid as much as an engineer, spending three times that amount of money on travel expenses every year to travel to exotic places, get on stage, party with your friends, and then give a 45-minute talk that spends two minutes mentioning where you work and 45 minutes talking about, I don't know, how to pick the right standing desk. That has, in many cases, been the perception of DevRel and I don't think that's particularly defensible in our current macroeconomic climate. So, what are all those DevRel people doing?Richard: [laugh]. That's such a good loaded question.Corey: It's always good to be given a question where the answers are very clear there are right answers and wrong answers, and oh, wow. It's a fun minefield. Have fun. Go catch.Richard: Yeah. No, that's terrific. Yeah, and your first part, we do have a pretty well-distributed team globally, who does a lot of things. Our YouTube channel has, you know, we just crossed a million subscribers who are getting this stuff regularly. It's more than Amazon and Azure combined on YouTube. So, in terms of like that, audience—Corey: Counterpoint, you definitionally are YouTube. But that's neither here nor there, either. I don't believe you're juicing the stats, but it's also somehow… not as awesome if, say, I were to do it, which I'm working on it, but I have a face for radio and it shows.Richard: [laugh]. Yeah, but a lot of this has been… the quality and quantity. Like, you look at the quantity of video, it overwhelms everyone else because we spend a lot of time, we have a specific media team within my DevRel team that does the studio work, that does the production, that does all that stuff. And it's a concerted effort. That team's amazing. They do really awesome work.But, you know, a lot of DevRel as you say, [sigh] I don't know about you, I don't think I've ever truly believed in the sort of halo effect of if super smart person works at X company, even if they don't even talk about that company, that somehow presents good vibes and business benefits to that company. I don't think we've ever proven that's really true. Maybe you've seen counterpoints, where [crosstalk 00:16:34]—Corey: I can think of anecdata examples of it. Often though, on some level, for me at least, it's been okay someone I tremendously respect to the industry has gone to work at a company that I've never heard of. I will be paying attention to what that company does as a direct result. Conversely, when someone who is super well known, and has been working at a company for a while leaves and then either trashes the company on the way out or doesn't talk about it, it's a question of, what's going on? Did something horrible happen there? Should we no longer like that company? Are we not friends anymore? It's—and I don't know if that's necessarily constructive, either, but it also, on some level, feels like it can shorthand to oh, to be working DevRel, you have to be an influencer, which frankly, I find terrifying.Richard: Yeah. Yeah. I just—the modern DevRel, hopefully, is doing a little more of product-led growth style work. They're focusing specifically on how are we helping developers discover, engage, scale, become advocates themselves in the platform, increasing that flywheel through usage, but that has very discreet metrics, it has very specific ownership. Again, personally, I don't even think DevRel should do as much with sales teams because sales teams have hundreds and sometimes thousands of sales engineers and sales reps. It's amazing. They have exactly what they need.I don't think DevRel is a drop in the bucket to that team. I'd rather talk directly to developers, focus on people who are self-service signups, people who are developers in those big accounts. So, I think the modern DevRel team is doing more in that respect. But when I look at—I just look, Corey, this morning at what my team did last week—so the average DevRel team, I look at what advocacy does, teams writing code labs, they're building tutorials. Yes, they're doing some in person events. They wrote some blog posts, published some videos, shipped a couple open-source projects that they contribute to in, like gaming sector, we ship—we have a couple projects there.They're actually usually customer zero in the product. They use the product before it ships, provides bugs and feedback to the team, we run DORA workshops—because again, we're the DevOps Research and Assessment gang—we actually run the tutorial and Docs platform for Google Cloud. We have people who write code samples and reference apps. So, sometimes you see things publicly, but you don't see the 20,000 code samples in the docs, many written by our team. So, a lot of the times, DevRel is doing work to just enable on some of these different properties, whether that's blogs or docs, whether that's guest articles or event series, but all of this should be in service of having that credible relationship to help devs use the platform easier. And I love watching this team do that.But I think there's more to it now than years ago, where maybe it was just, let's do some amazing work and try to have some second, third-order effect. I think DevRel teams that can have very discrete metrics around leading indicators of long-term cloud consumption. And if you can't measure that successfully, you've probably got to rethink the team.[midroll 00:19:20]Corey: That's probably fair. I think that there's a tremendous series of… I want to call it thankless work. Like having done some of those ridiculous parody videos myself, people look at it and they chuckle and they wind up, that was clever and funny, and they move on to the next one. And they don't see the fact that, you know, behind the scenes for that three-minute video, there was a five-figure budget to pull all that together with a lot of people doing a bunch of disparate work. Done right, a lot of this stuff looks like it was easy or that there was no work at all.I mean, at some level, I'm as guilty of that as anyone. We're recording a podcast now that is going to be handed over to the folks at HumblePod. They are going to produce this into something that sounds coherent, they're going to fix audio issues, all kinds of other stuff across the board, a full transcript, and the rest. And all of that is invisible to me. It's like AI; it's the magic box I drop a file into and get podcast out the other side.And that does a disservice to those people who are actively working in that space to make things better. Because the good stuff that they do never gets attention, but then the company makes an interesting blunder in some way or another and suddenly, everyone's out there screaming and wondering why these people aren't responding on Twitter in 20 seconds when they're finding out about this stuff for the first time.Richard: Mm-hm. Yeah, that's fair. You know, different internal, external expectations of even DevRel. We've recently launched—I don't know if you caught it—something called Jump Start Solutions, which were executable reference architectures. You can come into the Google Cloud Console or hit one of our pages and go, “Hey, I want to do a multi-tier web app.” “Hey, I want to do a data processing pipeline.” Like, use cases.One click, we blow out the entire thing in the platform, use it, mess around with it, turn it off with one click. Most of those are built by DevRel. Like, my engineers have gone and built that. Tons of work behind the scenes. Really, like, production-grade quality type architectures, really, really great work. There's going to be—there's a dozen of these. We'll GA them at Next—but really, really cool work. That's DevRel. Now, that's behind-the-scenes work, but as engineering work.That can be some of the thankless work of setting up projects, deployment architectures, Terraform, all of them also dropped into GitHub, ton of work documenting those. But yeah, that looks like behind-the-scenes work. But that's what—I mean, most of DevRel is engineers. These are folks often just building the things that then devs can use to learn the platforms. Is it the flashy work? No. Is it the most important work? Probably.Corey: I do have a question I'd be remiss not to ask. Since the last time we spoke, relatively recently from this recording, Google—well, I'd say ‘Google announced,' but they kind of didn't—Squarespace announced that they'd be taking over Google domains. And there was a lot of silence, which I interpret, to be clear, as people at Google being caught by surprise, by large companies, communication is challenging. And that's fine, but I don't think it was anything necessarily nefarious.And then it came out further in time with an FAQ that Google published on their site, that Google Cloud domains was a part of this as well. And that took a lot of people aback, in the sense—not that it's hard to migrate a domain from one provider to another, but it brought up the old question of, if you're building something in cloud, how do you pick what to trust? And I want to be clear before you answer that, I know you work there. I know that there are constraints on what you can or cannot say.And for people who are wondering why I'm not hitting you harder on this, I want to be very explicit, I can ask you a whole bunch of questions that I already know the answer to, and that answer is that you can't comment. That's not constructive or creative. So, I don't want people to think that I'm not intentionally asking the hard questions, but I also know that I'm not going to get an answer and all I'll do is make you uncomfortable. But I think it's fair to ask, how do you evaluate what services or providers or other resources you're using when you're building in cloud that are going to be around, that you can trust building on top of?Richard: It's a fair question. Not everyone's on… let's update our software on a weekly basis and I can just swap things in left. You know, there's a reason that even Red Hat is so popular with Linux because as a government employee, I can use that Linux and know it's backwards compatible for 15 years. And they sell that. Like, that's the value, that this thing works forever.And Microsoft does the same with a lot of their server products. Like, you know, for better or for worse, [laugh] they will always kind of work with a component you wrote 15 years ago in SharePoint and somehow it runs today. I don't even know how that's possible. Love it. That's impressive.Now, there's a cost to that. There's a giant tax in the vendor space to make that work. But yeah, there's certain times where even with us, look, we are trying to get better and better at things like comms. And last year we announced—I checked them recently—you know, we have 185 Cloud products in our enterprise APIs. Meaning they have a very, very tight way we would deprecate with very, very long notice, they've got certain expectations on guarantees of how long you can use them, quality of service, all the SLAs.And so, for me, like, I would bank on, first off, for every cloud provider, whether they're anchor services. Build on those right? You know, S3 is not going anywhere from Amazon. Rock solid service. BigQuery Goodness gracious, it's the center of Google Cloud.And you look at a lot of services: what can you bet on that are the anchors? And then you can take bets on things that sit around it. There's times to be edgy and say, “Hey, I'll use Service Weaver,” which we open-sourced earlier this year. It's kind of a cool framework for building apps and we'll deconstruct it into microservices at deploy time. That's cool.Would I literally build my whole business on it? No, I don't think so. It's early stuff. Now, would I maybe use it also with some really boring VMs and boring API Gateway and boring storage? Totally. Those are going to be around forever.I think for me, personally, I try to think of how do I isolate things that have some variability to them. Now, to your point, sometimes you don't know there's variability. You would have just thought that service might be around forever. So, how are you supposed to know that that thing could go away at some point? And that's totally fair. I get that.Which is why we have to keep being better at comms, making sure more things are in our enterprise APIs, which is almost everything. So, you have some assurances, when I build this thing, I've got a multi-year runway if anything ever changes. Nothing's going to stay the same forever, but nothing should change tomorrow on a dime. We need more trust than that.Corey: Absolutely. And I agree. And the problem, too, is hidden dependencies. Let's say what is something very simple. I want to log in to [unintelligible 00:25:34] brand new AWS account and spin of a single EC2 instance. The end. Well, I can trust that EC2 is going to be there. Great. That's not one service you need to go through that critical path. It is a bare minimum six, possibly as many as twelve, depending upon what it is exactly you're doing.And it's the, you find out after the fact that oh, there was that hidden dependency in there that I wasn't fully aware of. That is a tricky and delicate balance to strike. And, again, no one is going to ever congratulate you—at all—on the decision to maintain a service that is internally painful and engineering-ly expensive to keep going, but as soon as you kill something, even it's for this thing doesn't have any customers, the narrative becomes, “They're screwing over their customers.” It's—they just said that it didn't have any. What's the concern here?It's a messaging problem; it is a reputation problem. Conversely, everyone knows that Amazon does not kill AWS services. Full stop. Yeah, that turns out everyone's wrong. By my count, they've killed ten, full-on AWS services and counting at the moment. But that is not the reputation that they have.Conversely, I think that the reputation that Google is going to kill everything that it touches is probably not accurate, though I don't know that I'd want to have them over to babysit either. So, I don't know. But it is something that it feels like you're swimming uphill on in many respects, just due to not even deprecation decisions, historically, so much as poor communication around them.Richard: Mm-hm. I mean, communication can always get better, you know. And that's, it's not our customers' problem to make sure that they can track every weird thing we feel like doing. It's not their challenge. If our business model changes or our strategy changes, that's not technically the customer's problem. So, it's always our job to make this as easy as possible. Anytime we don't, we have made a mistake.So, you know, even DevRel, hey, look, it puts teams in a tough spot. We want our customers to trust us. We have to earn that; you will never just give it to us. At the same time, as you say, “Hey, we're profitable. It's great. We're growing like weeds,” it's amazing to see how many people are using this platform. I mean, even services, you don't talk about having—I mean, doing really, really well. But I got to earn that. And you got to earn, more importantly, the scale. I don't want you to just kick the tires on Google Cloud; I want you to bet on it. But we're only going to earn that with really good support, really good price, stability, really good feeling like these services are rock solid. Have we totally earned that? We're getting there, but not as mature as we'd like to get yet, but I like where we're going.Corey: I agree. And reputations are tricky. I mean, recently InfluxDB deprecated two regions and wound up turning them off and deleting data. And they wound up getting massive blowback for this, which, to their credit, their co-founder and CTO, Paul Dix—who has been on the show before—wound up talking about and saying, “Yeah, that was us. We're taking ownership of this.”But the public announcement said that they had—that data in AWS was not recoverable and they're reaching out to see if the data in GCP was still available. At which point, I took the wrong impression from this. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hang on. Hold the phone here. Does that mean that data that I delete from a Google Cloud account isn't really deleted?Because I have a whole bunch of regulators that would like a word if so. And Paul jumped onto that with, “No, no, no, no, no. I want to be clear, we have a backup system internally that we were using that has that set up. And we deleted the backups on the AWS side; we don't believe we did on the Google Cloud side. It's purely us, not a cloud provider problem.” It's like, “Okay, first, sorry for causing a fire drill.” Secondly, “Okay, that's great.” But the reason I jumped in that direction was just because it becomes so easy when a narrative gets out there to believe the worst about companies that you don't even realize you're doing it.Richard: No, I understand. It's reflexive. And I get it. And look, B2B is not B2C, you know? In B2B, it's not, “Build it and they will come.” I think we have the best cloud infrastructure, the best security posture, and the most sophisticated managed services. I believe that I use all the clouds. I think that's true. But it doesn't matter unless you also do the things around it, around support, security, you know, usability, trust, you have to go sell these things and bring them to people. You can't just sit back and say, “It's amazing. Everyone's going to use it.” You've got to earn that. And so, that's something that we're still on the journey of, but our foundation is terrific. We just got to do a better job on some of these intangibles around it.Corey: I agree with you, when you s—I think there's a spirited debate you could have on any of those things you said that you believe that Google Cloud is the best at, with the exception of security, where I think that is unquestionably. I think that is a lot less variable than the others. The others are more or less, “Who has the best cloud infrastructure?” Well, depends on who had what for breakfast today. But the simplicity and the approach you take to security is head and shoulders above the competition.And I want to make sure I give credit where due: it is because of that simplicity and default posturing that customers wind up better for it as a result. Otherwise, you wind up in this hell of, “You must have at least this much security training to responsibly secure your environment.” And that is never going to happen. People read far less than we wish they would. I want to make very clear that Google deserves the credit for that security posture.Richard: Yeah, and the other thing, look, I'll say that, from my observation, where we do something that feels a little special and different is we do think in platforms, we think in both how we build and how we operate and how the console is built by a platform team, you—singularly. How—[is 00:30:51] we're doing Duet AI that we've pre-announced at I/O and are shipping. That is a full platform experience covering a dozen services. That is really hard to do if you have a lot of isolation. So, we've done a really cool job thinking in platforms and giving that simplicity at that platform level. Hard to do, but again, we have to bring people to it. You're not going to discover it by accident.Corey: Richard, I will let you get back to your tear-filled late-night writing of tomorrow's Next keynote, but if people want to learn more—once the dust settles—where's the best place for them to find you?Richard: Yeah, hopefully, they continue to hang out at cloud.google.com and using all the free stuff, which is great. You can always find me at seroter.com. I read a bunch every day and then I've read a blog post every day about what I read, so if you ever want to tune in on that, just see what wacky things I'm checking out in tech, that is good. And I still hang out on different social networks, Twitter at @rseroter and LinkedIn and things like that. But yeah, join in and yell at me about anything I said.Corey: I did not realize you had a daily reading list of what you put up there. That is news to me and I will definitely track in, and then of course, yell at you from the cheap seats when I disagree with anything that you've chosen to include. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me and suffer the uncomfortable questions.Richard: Hey, I love it. If people aren't talking about us, then we don't matter, so I would much rather we'd be yelling about us than the opposite there.Corey: [laugh]. As always, it's been a pleasure. Richard Seroter, Director of Product Management and Developer Relations at Google Cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment that you had an AI system write for you because you never learned how to structure a sentence.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

About RichardRichard "RichiH" Hartmann is the Director of Community at Grafana Labs, Prometheus team member, OpenMetrics founder, OpenTelemetry member, CNCF Technical Advisory Group Observability chair, CNCF Technical Oversight Committee member, CNCF Governing Board member, and more. He also leads, organizes, or helps run various conferences from hundreds to 18,000 attendess, including KubeCon, PromCon, FOSDEM, DENOG, DebConf, and Chaos Communication Congress. In the past, he made mainframe databases work, ISP backbones run, kept the largest IRC network on Earth running, and designed and built a datacenter from scratch. Go through his talks, podcasts, interviews, and articles at https://github.com/RichiH/talks or follow him on Twitter at https://twitter.com/TwitchiH for musings on the intersection of technology and society.Links Referenced: Grafana Labs: https://grafana.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/TwitchiH Richard Hartmann list of talks: https://github.com/richih/talks TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at AWS AppConfig. Engineers love to solve, and occasionally create, problems. But not when it's an on-call fire-drill at 4 in the morning. Software problems should drive innovation and collaboration, NOT stress, and sleeplessness, and threats of violence. That's why so many developers are realizing the value of AWS AppConfig Feature Flags. Feature Flags let developers push code to production, but hide that that feature from customers so that the developers can release their feature when it's ready. This practice allows for safe, fast, and convenient software development. You can seamlessly incorporate AppConfig Feature Flags into your AWS or cloud environment and ship your Features with excitement, not trepidation and fear. To get started, go to snark.cloud/appconfig. That's snark.cloud/appconfig.Corey: This episode is brought to us in part by our friends at Datadog. Datadog's SaaS monitoring and security platform that enables full stack observability for developers, IT operations, security, and business teams in the cloud age. Datadog's platform, along with 500 plus vendor integrations, allows you to correlate metrics, traces, logs, and security signals across your applications, infrastructure, and third party services in a single pane of glass.Combine these with drag and drop dashboards and machine learning based alerts to help teams troubleshoot and collaborate more effectively, prevent downtime, and enhance performance and reliability. Try Datadog in your environment today with a free 14 day trial and get a complimentary T-shirt when you install the agent.To learn more, visit datadoghq/screaminginthecloud to get. That's www.datadoghq/screaminginthecloudCorey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. There are an awful lot of people who are incredibly good at understanding the ins and outs and the intricacies of the observability world. But they didn't have time to come on the show today. Instead, I am talking to my dear friend of two decades now, Richard Hartmann, better known on the internet as RichiH, who is the Director of Community at Grafana Labs, here to suffer—in a somewhat atypical departure for the theme of this show—personal attacks for once. Richie, thank you for joining me.Richard: And thank you for agreeing on personal attacks.Corey: Exactly. It was one of your riders. Like, there have to be the personal attacks back and forth or you refuse to appear on the show. You've been on before. In fact, the last time we did a recording, I believe you were here in person, which was a long time ago. What have you been up to?You're still at Grafana Labs. And in many cases, I would point out that, wow, you've been there for many years; that seems to be an atypical thing, which is an American tech industry perspective because every time you and I talk about this, you look at folks who—wow, you were only at that company for five years. What's wrong with you—you tend to take the longer view and I tend to have the fast twitch, time to go ahead and leave jobs because it's been more than 20 minutes approach. I see that you're continuing to live what you preach, though. How's it been?Richard: Yeah, so there's a little bit of Covid brains, I think. When we talked in 2018, I was still working at SpaceNet, building a data center. But the last two-and-a-half years didn't really happen for many people, myself included. So, I guess [laugh] that includes you.Corey: No, no you're right. You've only been at Grafana Labs a couple of years. One would think I would check the notes for shooting my mouth off. But then, one wouldn't know me.Richard: What notes? Anyway, I've been around Prometheus and Grafana Since 2015. But it's like, real, full-time everything is 2020. There was something in between. Since 2018, I contracted to do vulnerability handling and everything for Grafana Labs because they had something and they didn't know how to deal with it.But no, full time is 2020. But as to the space in the [unintelligible 00:02:45] of itself, it's maybe a little bit German of me, but trying to understand the real world and trying to get an overview of systems and how they actually work, and if they are working correctly and as intended, and if not, how they're not working as intended, and how to fix this is something which has always been super important to me, in part because I just want to understand the world. And this is a really, really good way to automate understanding of the world. So, it's basically a work-saving mechanism. And that's why I've been sticking to it for so long, I guess.Corey: Back in the early days of monitoring systems—so we called it monitoring back then because, you know, are using simple words that lack nuance was sort of de rigueur back then—we wound up effectively having tools. Nagios is the one that springs to mind, and it was terrible in all the ways you would expect a tool written in janky Perl in the early-2000s to be. But it told you what was going on. It tried to do a thing, generally reach a server or query it about things, and when things fell out of certain specs, it screamed its head off, which meant that when you had things like the core switch melting down—thinking of one very particular incident—you didn't get a Nagios alert; you got 4000 Nagios alerts. But start to finish, you could wrap your head rather fully around what Nagios did and why it did the sometimes strange things that it did.These days, when you take a look at Prometheus, which we hear a lot about, particularly in the Kubernetes space and Grafana, which is often mentioned in the same breath, it's never been quite clear to me exactly where those start and stop. It always feels like it's a component in a larger system to tell you what's going on rather than a one-stop shop that's going to, you know, shriek its head off when something breaks in the middle of the night. Is that the right way to think about it? The wrong way to think about it?Richard: It's a way to think about it. So personally, I use the terms monitoring and observability pretty much interchangeably. Observability is a relatively well-defined term, even though most people won't agree. But if you look back into the '70s into control theory where the term is coming from, it is the measure of how much you're able to determine the internal state of a system by looking at its inputs and its outputs. Depending on the definition, some people don't include the inputs, but that is the OG definition as far as I'm aware.And from this, there flow a lot of things. This question of—or this interpretation of the difference between telling that, yes, something's broken versus why something's broken. Or if you can't ask new questions on the fly, it's not observability. Like all of those things are fundamentally mapped to this definition of, I need enough data to determine the internal state of whatever system I have just by looking at what is coming in, what is going out. And that is at the core the thing. Now, obviously, it's become a buzzword, which is oftentimes the fate of successful things. So, it's become a buzzword, and you end up with cargo culting.Corey: I would argue periodically, that observability is hipster monitoring. If you call it monitoring, you get yelled at by Charity Majors. Which is tongue and cheek, but she has opinions, made, nonetheless shall I say, frustrating by the fact that she is invariably correct in those opinions, which just somehow makes it so much worse. It would be easy to dismiss things she says if she weren't always right. And the world is changing, especially as we get into the world of distributed systems.Is the server that runs the app working or not working loses meaning when we're talking about distributed systems, when we're talking about containers running on top of Kubernetes, which turns every outage into a murder mystery. We start having distributed applications composed of microservices, so you have no idea necessarily where an issue is. Okay, is this one microservice having an issue related to the request coming into a completely separate microservice? And it seems that for those types of applications, the answer has been tracing for a long time now, where originally that was something that felt like it was sprung, fully-formed from the forehead of some God known as one of the hyperscalers, but now is available to basically everyone, in theory.In practice, it seems that instrumenting applications still one of the hardest parts of all of this. I tried hooking up one of my own applications to be observed via OTEL, the open telemetry project, and it turns out that right now, OTEL and AWS Lambda have an intersection point that makes everything extremely difficult to work with. It's not there yet; it's not baked yet. And someday, I hope that changes because I would love to interchangeably just throw metrics and traces and logs to all the different observability tools and see which ones work, which ones don't, but that still feels very far away from current state of the art.Richard: Before we go there, maybe one thing which I don't fully agree with. You said that previously, you were told if a service up or down, that's the thing which you cared about, and I don't think that's what people actually cared about. At that time, also, what they fundamentally cared about: is the user-facing service up, or down, or impacted? Is it slow? Does it return errors every X percent for requests, something like this?Corey: Is the site up? And—you're right, I was hand-waving over a whole bunch of things. It was, “Okay. First, the web server is returning a page, yes or no? Great. Can I ping the server?” Okay, well, there are ways of server can crash and still leave enough of the TCP/IP stack up or it can respond to pings and do little else.And then you start adding things to it. But the Nagios thing that I always wanted to add—and had to—was, is the disk full? And that was annoying. And, on some level, like, why should I care in the modern era how much stuff is on the disk because storage is cheap and free and plentiful? The problem is, after the third outage in a month because the disk filled up, you start to not have a good answer for well, why aren't you monitoring whether the disk is full?And that was the contributors to taking down the server. When the website broke, there were what felt like a relatively small number of reasonably well-understood contributors to that at small to midsize applications, which is what I'm talking about, the only things that people would let me touch. I wasn't running hyperscale stuff where you have a fleet of 10,000 web servers and, “Is the server up?” Yeah, in that scenario, no one cares. But when we're talking about the database server and the two application servers and the four web servers talking to them, you think about it more in terms of pets than you do cattle.Richard: Yes, absolutely. Yet, I think that was a mistake back then, and I tried to do it differently, as a specific example with the disk. And I'm absolutely agreeing that previous generation tools limit you in how you can actually work with your data. In particular, once you're with metrics where you can do actual math on the data, it doesn't matter if the disk is almost full. It matters if that disk is going to be full within X amount of time.If that disk is 98% full and it sits there at 98% for ten years and provides the service, no one cares. The thing is, will it actually run out in the next two hours, in the next five hours, what have you. Depending on this, is this currently or imminently a customer-impacting or user-impacting then yes, alert on it, raise hell, wake people, make them fix it, as opposed to this thing can be dealt with during business hours on the next workday. And you don't have to wake anyone up.Corey: Yeah. The big filer with massive amounts of storage has crossed the 70% line. Okay, now it's time to start thinking about that, what do you want to do? Maybe it's time to order another shelf of discs for it, which is going to take some time. That's a radically different scenario than the 20 gigabyte root volume on your server just started filling up dramatically; the rate of change is such that'll be full in 20 minutes.Yeah, one of those is something you want to wake people up for. Generally speaking, you don't want to wake people up for what is fundamentally a longer-term strategic business problem. That can be sorted out in the light of day versus, “[laugh] we're not going to be making money in two hours, so if I don't wake up and fix this now.” That's the kind of thing you generally want to be woken up for. Well, let's be honest, you don't want that to happen at all, but if it does happen, you kind of want to know in advance rather than after the fact.Richard: You're literally describing linear predict from Prometheus, which is precisely for this, where I can look back over X amount of time and make a linear prediction because everything else breaks down at scale, blah, blah, blah, to detail. But the thing is, I can draw a line with my pencil by hand on my data and I can predict when is this thing going to it. Which is obviously precisely correct if I have a TLS certificate. It's a little bit more hand-wavy when it's a disk. But still, you can look into the future and you say, “What will be happening if current trends for the last X amount of time continue in Y amount of time.” And that's precisely a thing where you get this more powerful ability of doing math with your data.Corey: See, when you say it like that, it sounds like it actually is a whole term of art, where you're focusing on an in-depth field, where salaries are astronomical. Whereas the tools that I had to talk about this stuff back in the day made me sound like, effectively, the sysadmin that I was grunting and pointing: “This is gonna fill up.” And that is how I thought about it. And this is the challenge where it's easy to think about these things in narrow, defined contexts like that, but at scale, things break.Like the idea of anomaly detection. Well, okay, great if normally, the CPU and these things are super bored and suddenly it gets really busy, that's atypical. Maybe we should look into it, assuming that it has a challenge. The problem is, that is a lot harder than it sounds because there are so many factors that factor into it. And as soon as you have something, quote-unquote, “Intelligent,” making decisions on this, it doesn't take too many false positives before you start ignoring everything it has to say, and missing legitimate things. It's this weird and obnoxious conflation of both hard technical problems and human psychology.Richard: And the breaking up of old service boundaries. Of course, when you say microservices, and such, fundamentally, functionally a microservice or nanoservice, picoservice—but the pendulum is already swinging back to larger units of complexity—but it fundamentally does not make any difference if I have a monolith on some mainframe or if I have a bunch of microservices. Yes, I can scale differently, I can scale horizontally a lot more easily, vertically, it's a little bit harder, blah, blah, blah, but fundamentally, the logic and the complexity, which is being packaged is fundamentally the same. More users, everything, but it is fundamentally the same. What's happening again, and again, is I'm breaking up those old boundaries, which means the old tools which have assumptions built in about certain aspects of how I can actually get an overview of a system just start breaking down, when my complexity unit or my service or what have I, is usually congruent with a physical piece, of hardware or several services are congruent with that piece of hardware, it absolutely makes sense to think about things in terms of this one physical server. The fact that you have different considerations in cloud, and microservices, and blah, blah, blah, is not inherently that it is more complex.On the contrary, it is fundamentally the same thing. It scales with users' everything, but it is fundamentally the same thing, but I have different boundaries of where I put interfaces onto my complexity, which basically allow me to hide all of this complexity from the downstream users.Corey: That's part of the challenge that I think we're grappling with across this entire industry from start to finish. Where we originally looked at these things and could reason about it because it's the computer and I know how those things work. Well, kind of, but okay, sure. But then we start layering levels of complexity on top of layers of complexity on top of layers of complexity, and suddenly, when things stop working the way that we expect, it can be very challenging to unpack and understand why. One of the ways I got into this whole space was understanding, to some degree, of how system calls work, of how the kernel wound up interacting with userspace, about how Linux systems worked from start to finish. And these days, that isn't particularly necessary most of the time for the care and feeding of applications.The challenge is when things start breaking, suddenly having that in my back pocket to pull out could be extremely handy. But I don't think it's nearly as central as it once was and I don't know that I would necessarily advise someone new to this space to spend a few years as a systems person, digging into a lot of those aspects. And this is why you need to know what inodes are and how they work. Not really, not anymore. It's not front and center the way that it once was, in most environments, at least in the world that I live in. Agree? Disagree?Richard: Agreed. But it's very much unsurprising. You probably can't tell me how to precisely grow sugar cane or corn, you can't tell me how to refine the sugar out of it, but you can absolutely bake a cake. But you will not be able to tell me even a third of—and I'm—for the record, I'm also not able to tell you even a third about the supply chain which just goes from I have a field and some seeds and I need to have a package of refined sugar—you're absolutely enabled to do any of this. The thing is, you've been part of the previous generation of infrastructure where you know how this underlying infrastructure works, so you have more ability to reason about this, but it's not needed for cloud services nearly as much.You need different types of skill sets, but that doesn't mean the old skill set is completely useless, at least not as of right now. It's much more a case of you need fewer of those people and you need them in different places because those things have become infrastructure. Which is basically the cloud play, where a lot of this is just becoming infrastructure more and more.Corey: Oh, yeah. Back then I distinctly remember my elders looking down their noses at me because I didn't know assembly, and how could I possibly consider myself a competent systems admin if I didn't at least have a working knowledge of assembly? Or at least C, which I, over time, learned enough about to know that I didn't want to be a C programmer. And you're right, this is the value of cloud and going back to those days getting a web server up and running just to compile Apache's httpd took a week and an in-depth knowledge of GCC flags.And then in time, oh, great. We're going to have rpm or debs. Great, okay, then in time, you have apt, if you're in the dev land because I know you are a Debian developer, but over in Red Hat land, we had yum and other tools. And then in time, it became oh, we can just use something like Puppet or Chef to wind up ensuring that thing is installed. And then oh, just docker run. And now it's a checkbox in a web console for S3.These things get easier with time and step by step by step we're standing on the shoulders of giants. Even in the last ten years of my career, I used to have a great challenge question that I would interview people with of, “Do you know what TinyURL is? It takes a short URL and then expands it to a longer one. Great, on the whiteboard, tell me how you would implement that.” And you could go up one side and down the other, and then you could add constraints, multiple data centers, now one goes offline, how do you not lose data? Et cetera, et cetera.But these days, there are so many ways to do that using cloud services that it almost becomes trivial. It's okay, multiple data centers, API Gateway, a Lambda, and a global DynamoDB table. Now, what? “Well, now it gets slow. Why is it getting slow?”“Well, in that scenario, probably because of something underlying the cloud provider.” “And so now, you lose an entire AWS region. How do you handle that?” “Seems to me when that happens, the entire internet's kind of broken. Do people really need longer URLs?”And that is a valid answer, in many cases. The question doesn't really work without a whole bunch of additional constraints that make it sound fake. And that's not a weakness. That is the fact that computers and cloud services have never been as accessible as they are now. And that's a win for everyone.Richard: There's one aspect of accessibility which is actually decreasing—or two. A, you need to pay for them on an ongoing basis. And B, you need an internet connection which is suitably fast, low latency, what have you. And those are things which actually do make things harder for a variety of reasons. If I look at our back-end systems—as in Grafana—all of them have single binary modes where you literally compile everything into a single binary and you can run it on your laptop because if you're stuck on a plane, you can't do any work on it. That kind of is not the best of situations.And if you have a huge CI/CD pipeline, everything in this cloud and fine and dandy, but your internet breaks. Yeah, so I do agree that it is becoming generally more accessible. I disagree that it is becoming more accessible along all possible axes.Corey: I would agree. There is a silver lining to that as well, where yes, they are fraught and dangerous and I would preface this with a whole bunch of warnings, but from a cost perspective, all of the cloud providers do have a free tier offering where you can kick the tires on a lot of these things in return for no money. Surprisingly, the best one of those is Oracle Cloud where they have an unlimited free tier, use whatever you want in this subset of services, and you will never be charged a dime. As opposed to the AWS model of free tier where well, okay, it suddenly got very popular or you misconfigured something, and surprise, you now owe us enough money to buy Belize. That doesn't usually lead to a great customer experience.But you're right, you can't get away from needing an internet connection of at least some level of stability and throughput in order for a lot of these things to work. The stuff you would do locally on a Raspberry Pi, for example, if your budget constrained and want to get something out here, or your laptop. Great, that's not going to work in the same way as a full-on cloud service will.Richard: It's not free unless you have hard guarantees that you're not going to ever pay anything. It's fine to send warning, it's fine to switch the thing off, it's fine to have you hit random hard and soft quotas. It is not a free service if you can't guarantee that it is free.Corey: I agree with you. I think that there needs to be a free offering where, “Well, okay, you want us to suddenly stop serving traffic to the world?” “Yes. When the alternative is you have to start charging me through the nose, yes I want you to stop serving traffic.” That is definitionally what it says on the tin.And as an independent learner, that is what I want. Conversely, if I'm an enterprise, yeah, I don't care about money; we're running our Superbowl ad right now, so whatever you do, don't stop serving traffic. Charge us all the money. And there's been a lot of hand wringing about, well, how do we figure out which direction to go in? And it's, have you considered asking the customer?So, on a scale of one to bank, how serious is this account going to be [laugh]? Like, what are your big concerns: never charge me or never go down? Because we can build for either of those. Just let's make sure that all of those expectations are aligned. Because if you guess you're going to get it wrong and then no one's going to like you.Richard: I would argue this. All those services from all cloud providers actually build to address both of those. It's a deliberate choice not to offer certain aspects.Corey: Absolutely. When I talk to AWS, like, “Yeah, but there is an eventual consistency challenge in the billing system where it takes”—as anyone who's looked at the billing system can see—“Multiple days, sometimes for usage data to show up. So, how would we be able to stop things if the usage starts climbing?” To which my relatively direct responses, that sounds like a huge problem. I don't know how you'd fix that, but I do know that if suddenly you decide, as a matter of policy, to okay, if you're in the free tier, we will not charge you, or even we will not charge you more than $20 a month.So, you build yourself some headroom, great. And anything that people are able to spin up, well, you're just going to have to eat the cost as a provider. I somehow suspect that would get fixed super quickly if that were the constraint. The fact that it isn't is a conscious choice.Richard: Absolutely.Corey: And the reason I'm so passionate about this, about the free space, is not because I want to get a bunch of things for free. I assure you I do not. I mean, I spend my life fixing AWS bills and looking at AWS pricing, and my argument is very rarely, “It's too expensive.” It's that the billing dimension is hard to predict or doesn't align with a customer's experience or prices a service out of a bunch of use cases where it'll be great. But very rarely do I just sit here shaking my fist and saying, “It costs too much.”The problem is when you scare the living crap out of a student with a surprise bill that's more than their entire college tuition, even if you waive it a week or so later, do you think they're ever going to be as excited as they once were to go and use cloud services and build things for themselves and see what's possible? I mean, you and I met on IRC 20 years ago because back in those days, the failure mode and the risk financially was extremely low. It's yeah, the biggest concern that I had back then when I was doing some of my Linux experimentation is if I typed the wrong thing, I'm going to break my laptop. And yeah, that happened once or twice, and I've learned not to make those same kinds of mistakes, or put guardrails in so the blast radius was smaller, or use a remote system instead. Yeah, someone else's computer that I can destroy. Wonderful. But that was on we live and we learn as we were coming up. There was never an opportunity for us, to my understanding, to wind up accidentally running up an $8 million charge.Richard: Absolutely. And psychological safety is one of the most important things in what most people do. We are social animals. Without this psychological safety, you're not going to have long-term, self-sustaining groups. You will not make someone really excited about it. There's two basic ways to sell: trust or force. Those are the two ones. There's none else.Corey: Managing shards. Maintenance windows. Overprovisioning. ElastiCache bills. I know, I know. It's a spooky season and you're already shaking. It's time for caching to be simpler. Momento Serverless Cache lets you forget the backend to focus on good code and great user experiences. With true autoscaling and a pay-per-use pricing model, it makes caching easy. No matter your cloud provider, get going for free at gomemento.co/screaming That's GO M-O-M-E-N-T-O dot co slash screamingCorey: Yeah. And it also looks ridiculous. I was talking to someone somewhat recently who's used to spending four bucks a month on their AWS bill for some S3 stuff. Great. Good for them. That's awesome. Their credentials got compromised. Yes, that is on them to some extent. Okay, great.But now after six days, they were told that they owed $360,000 to AWS. And I don't know how, as a cloud company, you can sit there and ask a student to do that. That is not a realistic thing. They are what is known, in the United States at least, in the world of civil litigation as quote-unquote, “Judgment proof,” which means, great, you could wind up finding that someone owes you $20 billion. Most of the time, they don't have that, so you're not able to recoup it. Yeah, the judgment feels good, but you're never going to see it.That's the problem with something like that. It's yeah, I would declare bankruptcy long before, as a student, I wound up paying that kind of money. And I don't hear any stories about them releasing the collection agency hounds against people in that scenario. But I couldn't guarantee that. I would never urge someone to ignore that bill and see what happens.And it's such an off-putting thing that, from my perspective, is beneath of the company. And let's be clear, I see this behavior at times on Google Cloud, and I see it on Azure as well. This is not something that is unique to AWS, but they are the 800-pound gorilla in the space, and that's important. Or as I just to mention right now, like, as I—because I was about to give you crap for this, too, but if I go to grafana.com, it says, and I quote, “Play around with the Grafana Stack. Experience Grafana for yourself, no registration or installation needed.”Good. I was about to yell at you if it's, “Oh, just give us your credit card and go ahead and start spinning things up and we won't charge you. Honest.” Even your free account does not require a credit card; you're doing it right. That tells me that I'm not going to get a giant surprise bill.Richard: You have no idea how much thought and work went into our free offering. There was a lot of math involved.Corey: None of this is easy, I want to be very clear on that. Pricing is one of the hardest things to get right, especially in cloud. And it also, when you get it right, it doesn't look like it was that hard for you to do. But I fix [sigh] I people's AWS bills for a living and still, five or six years in, one of the hardest things I still wrestle with is pricing engagements. It's incredibly nuanced, incredibly challenging, and at least for services in the cloud space where you're doing usage-based billing, that becomes a problem.But glancing at your pricing page, you do hit the two things that are incredibly important to me. The first one is use something for free. As an added bonus, you can use it forever. And I can get started with it right now. Great, when I go and look at your pricing page or I want to use your product and it tells me to ‘click here to contact us.' That tells me it's an enterprise sales cycle, it's got to be really expensive, and I'm not solving my problem tonight.Whereas the other side of it, the enterprise offering needs to be ‘contact us' and you do that, that speaks to the enterprise procurement people who don't know how to sign a check that doesn't have to commas in it, and they want to have custom terms and all the rest, and they're prepared to pay for that. If you don't have that, you look to small-time. When it doesn't matter what price you put on it, you wind up offering your enterprise tier at some large number, it's yeah, for some companies, that's a small number. You don't necessarily want to back yourself in, depending upon what the specific needs are. You've gotten that right.Every common criticism that I have about pricing, you folks have gotten right. And I definitely can pick up on your fingerprints on a lot of this. Because it sounds like a weird thing to say of, “Well, he's the Director of Community, why would he weigh in on pricing?” It's, “I don't think you understand what community is when you ask that question.”Richard: Yes, I fully agree. It's super important to get pricing right, or to get many things right. And usually the things which just feel naturally correct are the ones which took the most effort and the most time and everything. And yes, at least from the—like, I was in those conversations or part of them, and the one thing which was always clear is when we say it's free, it must be free. When we say it is forever free, it must be forever free. No games, no lies, do what you say and say what you do. Basically.We have things where initially you get certain pro features and you can keep paying and you can keep using them, or after X amount of time they go away. Things like these are built in because that's what people want. They want to play around with the whole thing and see, hey, is this actually providing me value? Do I want to pay for this feature which is nice or this and that plugin or what have you? And yeah, you're also absolutely right that once you leave these constraints of basically self-serve cloud, you are talking about bespoke deals, but you're also talking about okay, let's sit down, let's actually understand what your business is: what are your business problems? What are you going to solve today? What are you trying to solve tomorrow?Let us find a way of actually supporting you and invest into a mutual partnership and not just grab the money and run. We have extremely low churn for, I would say, pretty good reasons. Because this thing about our users, our customers being successful, we do take it extremely seriously.Corey: It's one of those areas that I just can't shake the feeling is underappreciated industry-wide. And the reason I say that this is your fingerprints on it is because if this had been wrong, you have a lot of… we'll call them idiosyncrasies, where there are certain things you absolutely will not stand for, and misleading people and tricking them into paying money is high on that list. One of the reasons we're friends. So yeah, but I say I see your fingerprints on this, it's yeah, if this hadn't been worked out the way that it is, you would not still be there. One other thing that I wanted to call out about, well, I guess it's a confluence of pricing and logging in the rest, I look at your free tier, and it offers up to 50 gigabytes of ingest a month.And it's easy for me to sit here and compare that to other services, other tools, and other logging stories, and then I have to stop and think for a minute that yeah, discs have gotten way bigger, and internet connections have gotten way faster, and even the logs have gotten way wordier. I still am not sure that most people can really contextualize just how much logging fits into 50 gigs of data. Do you have any, I guess, ballpark examples of what that looks like? Because it's been long enough since I've been playing in these waters that I can't really contextualize it anymore.Richard: Lord of the Rings is roughly five megabytes. It's actually less. So, we're talking literally 10,000 Lord of the Rings, which you can just shove in us and we're just storing this for you. Which also tells you that you're not going to be reading any of this. Or some of it, yes, but not all of it. You need better tooling and you need proper tooling.And some of this is more modern. Some of this is where we actually pushed the state of the art. But I'm also biased. But I, for myself, do claim that we did push the state of the art here. But at the same time you come back to those absolute fundamentals of how humans deal with data.If you look back basically as far as we have writing—literally 6000 years ago, is the oldest writing—humans have always dealt with information with the state of the world in very specific ways. A, is it important enough to even write it down, to even persist it in whatever persistence mechanisms I have at my disposal? If yes, write a detailed account or record a detailed account of whatever the thing is. But it turns out, this is expensive and it's not what you need. So, over time, you optimize towards only taking down key events and only noting key events. Maybe with their interconnections, but fundamentally, the key events.As your data grows, as you have more stuff, as this still is important to your business and keeps being more important to—or doesn't even need to be a business; can be social, can be whatever—whatever thing it is, it becomes expensive, again, to retain all of those key events. So, you turn them into numbers and you can do actual math on them. And that's this path which you've seen again, and again, and again, and again, throughout humanity's history. Literally, as long as we have written records, this has played out again, and again, and again, and again, for every single field which humans actually cared about. At different times, like, power networks are way ahead of this, but fundamentally power networks work on metrics, but for transient load spike, and everything, they have logs built into their power measurement devices, but those are only far in between. Of course, the main thing is just metrics, time-series. And you see this again, and again.You also were sysadmin in internet-related all switches have been metrics-based or metrics-first for basically forever, for 20, 30 years. But that stands to reason. Of course the internet is running at by roughly 20 years scale-wise in front of the cloud because obviously you need the internet because as you wouldn't be having a cloud. So, all of those growing pains why metrics are all of a sudden the thing, “Or have been for a few years now,” is basically, of course, people who were writing software, providing their own software services, hit the scaling limitations which you hit for Internet service providers two decades, three decades ago. But fundamentally, you have this complete system. Basically profiles or distributed tracing depending on how you view distributed tracing.You can also argue that distributed tracing is key events which are linked to each other. Logs sit firmly in the key event thing and then you turn this into numbers and that is metrics. And that's basically it. You have extremes at the and where you can have valid, depending on your circumstances, engineering trade-offs of where you invest the most, but fundamentally, that is why those always appear again in humanity's dealing with data, and observability is no different.Corey: I take a look at last month's AWS bill. Mine is pretty well optimized. It's a bit over 500 bucks. And right around 150 of that is various forms of logging and detecting change in the environment. And on the one hand, I sit here, and I think, “Oh, I should optimize that,” because the value of those logs to me is zero.Except that whenever I have to go in and diagnose something or respond to an incident or have some forensic exploration, they then are worth an awful lot. And I am prepared to pay 150 bucks a month for that because the potential value of having that when the time comes is going to be extraordinarily useful. And it basically just feels like a tax on top of what it is that I'm doing. The same thing happens with application observability where, yeah, when you just want the big substantial stuff, yeah, until you're trying to diagnose something. But in some cases, yeah, okay, then crank up the verbosity and then look for it.But if you're trying to figure it out after an event that isn't likely or hopefully won't recur, you're going to wish that you spent a little bit more on collecting data out of it. You're always going to be wrong, you're always going to be unhappy, on some level.Richard: Ish. You could absolutely be optimizing this. I mean, for $500, it's probably not worth your time unless you take it as an exercise, but outside of due diligence where you need specific logs tied to—or specific events tied to specific times, I would argue that a lot of the problems with logs is just dealing with it wrong. You have this one extreme of full-text indexing everything, and you have this other extreme of a data lake—which is just a euphemism of never looking at the data again—to keep storage vendors happy. There is an in between.Again, I'm biased, but like for example, with Loki, you have those same label sets as you have on your metrics with Prometheus, and you have literally the same, which means you only index that part and you only extract on ingestion time. If you don't have structured logs yet, only put the metadata about whatever you care about extracted and put it into your label set and store this, and that's the only thing you index. But it goes further than just this. You can also turn those logs into metrics.And to me this is a path of optimization. Where previously I logged this and that error. Okay, fine, but it's just a log line telling me it's HTTP 500. No one cares that this is at this precise time. Log levels are also basically an anti-pattern because they're just trying to deal with the amount of data which I have, and try and get a handle on this on that level whereas it would be much easier if I just counted every time I have an HTTP 500, I just up my counter by one. And again, and again, and again.And all of a sudden, I have literally—and I did the math on this—over 99.8% of the data which I have to store just goes away. It's just magic the way—and we're only talking about the first time I'm hitting this logline. The second time I'm hitting this logline is functionally free if I turn this into metrics. It becomes cheap enough that one of the mantras which I have, if you need to onboard your developers on modern observability, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, the whole bells and whistles, usually people have logs, like that's what they have, unless they were from ISPs or power companies, or so; there they usually start with metrics.But most users, which I see both with my Grafana and with my Prometheus [unintelligible 00:38:46] tend to start with logs. They have issues with those logs because they're basically unstructured and useless and you need to first make them useful to some extent. But then you can leverage on this and instead of having a debug statement, just put a counter. Every single time you think, “Hey, maybe I should put a debug statement,” just put a counter instead. In two months time, see if it was worth it or if you delete that line and just remove that counter.It's so much cheaper, you can just throw this on and just have it run for a week or a month or whatever timeframe and done. But it goes beyond this because all of a sudden, if I can turn my logs into metrics properly, I can start rewriting my alerts on those metrics. I can actually persist those metrics and can more aggressively throw my logs away. But also, I have this transition made a lot easier where I don't have this huge lift, where this day in three months is to be cut over and we're going to release the new version of this and that software and it's not going to have that, it's going to have 80% less logs and everything will be great and then you missed the first maintenance window or someone is ill or what have you, and then the next Big Friday is coming so you can't actually deploy there. I mean Black Friday. But we can also talk about deploying on Fridays.But the thing is, you have this huge thing, whereas if you have this as a continuous improvement process, I can just look at, this is the log which is coming out. I turn this into a number, I start emitting metrics directly, and I see that those numbers match. And so, I can just start—I build new stuff, I put it into a new data format, I actually emit the new data format directly from my code instrumentation, and only then do I start removing the instrumentation for the logs. And that allows me to, with full confidence, with psychological safety, just move a lot more quickly, deliver much more quickly, and also cut down on my costs more quickly because I'm just using more efficient data types.Corey: I really want to thank you for spending as much time as you have. If people want to learn more about how you view the world and figure out what other personal attacks they can throw your way, where's the best place for them to find you?Richard: Personal attacks, probably Twitter. It's, like, the go-to place for this kind of thing. For actually tracking, I stopped maintaining my own website. Maybe I'll do again, but if you go on github.com/ritchieh/talks, you'll find a reasonably up-to-date list of all the talks, interviews, presentations, panels, what have you, which I did over the last whatever amount of time. [laugh].Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:41:23]. Thanks again for your time. It's always appreciated.Richard: And thank you.Corey: Richard Hartmann, Director of Community at Grafana Labs. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment. And then when someone else comes along with an insulting comment they want to add, we'll just increment the counter by one.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

这期春节期间发布的节目，主播和 Richard 一起分享 Hoxton Books 书店的装修工作，特别是不同的书架、桌椅、吊灯背后的故事。这个 pop-up 系列是通过简单慢速英文录制，文字信息由 Otter.AI 整理。节目中提到的信息链接606 Universal Bookshelfwiloyem255@donmah.com纪录片 RAMShttps://www.hustwit.com/ramsKrossing 书架https://www.kriptonite.com/en/products/krossingTylko Type 2 书架https://tylko.com/shelf/bookcases/1504423/Tiptoe 桌腿https://www.tiptoe.fr/en/table-legs/Bertoia Molded Shell Side Chairhttps://www.knoll.com/product/bertoia-molded-side-chairDr Glob Chair by Philippe Starckhttp://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O144604/dr-glob-chair-philippe-starck/dr-glob-chair-starck-philippe/ 文字信息：Yifan Hi, RichardYifan So what are we going to talk about this week? Richard Well, actually, let me let me wish everyone a Happy New Year. Oh, right. Happy, happy, happy New Year of the ox. Yeah. Thank you. Happy New Year, everyone. So this week, we're gonna talk about the shop design. So the format is going to be slightly different. In that, I will be asking you fun, a few questions about how the design of the shop came about. Just a little update on the situation here.Richard Real lockdown, the country is still under national lockdown, which means that only only food shops could open pretty much.Richard Which means we and we still don't even though the numbers have come down. We still don't know when we're going to open. So we're waiting.Yifan In the meantime, I think in Scotland, bookshops are open. Oh, really? Oh, you didn't know? Yeah. No, I was not aware. But I've not been keeping a close eye on Scotland. They just had more snow than us. That's That's all I know.Richard So maybe, maybe you find you could just provide us with a brief description of the location and the space where the shop is.Yifan Thanks, Richard. So if you listen to our very first episode, we did describe roughly the layout and the location of the shop. The shop is in an area called Hoxton in London. And it's next door to a Chinese supermarket.Yifan The building is actually not one of those you see in their London Film. Like Notting Hill, it's more like a building you would see in a second tier City in, in China, I guess, but probably smaller, less.Richard It's, it's a modern building.Yifan Now you say it that way. It's a five storey, what 10 years old, 10 years old, five storey tall apartment block in a busy road. And so on the ground floor, you have what's called commercial units. So within this apartment block, there are two commercial units. One is a Chinese supermarket. And the other is going to be a half Chinese bookshop within our commercial unit Chinese bookshop.Unknown Speaker Well, it's kind of like a Chinese British run bookshop. Within our unit,Unknown Speaker we are sharing the book The shop space with a with an art gallery. So we only occupy one third of the space. And the art gallery occupies two thirds the space, but we share the same entrance.Unknown Speaker If that makes sense.Unknown Speaker There's just one entrance for both. So you have you enter the gallery to enter the bookshop. Yes, exactly. So when you enter if you turn left is the bookshop. If you turn right is the gallery ish. Maybe I should also say something about the floor of our the our half of the shop is about 15 to 20 square metres. And we have fairly high a fairly high ceiling so from floor to ceiling is about four there is Yeah, shall we say? four metres? three metres, at least three point something. Yeah, it's a pretty high ceiling. Yeah. So yeah, 3.5 metres. But the shape of the space is a triangle. It's one of those classic triangles as Rachel would say, you study in a trigonometry class. So the road runs along I would say p pata news I bought a news hypotony news. And then we have an along that side. Let me maybe just use Chinese to describe this. So the triangle is like a different like a ghost ankles, the shell Dominica, semiotic Chung, okay. So a hypotenuse is the shroud was a bit okay. And what chord adjacent is the Jericho sank was the neighbour and then the opposite side is the Was it the right the right angle sides are opposite the opposite the hypotenuse? Yes, this is great. This is like Pythagoras theorem, a squared plus b squared equals c squared. Exactly. SoUnknown Speaker Basically imagine hypotenuse is the seat is the? Yes. So imagine the voice is three, four and five metres long, which roughly it probably is it's slightly bigger than that. Yeah, yeah, that's the class. Yeah, Pythagoras. theorem try Yes. And the opposite side is the three, the adjacent side is the four. And the hypotenuse side is the five.Unknown Speaker That a 10 out. Okay, so that's a space. And when you go into the shop, you go through the smallest acute angle, kind of, right? Again, it's a gap in the wall, never mind like a little, rather than in the middle of a side, it's on the side of a side, if that makes sense. Basically, as you go in, and maybe you want to explain that one in Chinese,Unknown Speaker it's already very confused as you go into the shop. On your left, it's the hypotenuse. And it's got a window in the middle, and that's facing the busy road. And then on your right is the adjacent side, that's just like a wall that's dividing our bookshop and the shop next door. And then we have the opposite side, you have another wall.Unknown Speaker That that's the layout. Is that essentially, it sounds like a lot of wolves to put put bookshelves on exactly. Basically this. There's one takeaway from all this. And what was your question? So he did the desert? Yeah, yeah. So essentially, what was what we went back, but essentially, the question was, who did the design planning? Okay. So there were two designs. So one, we consulted a friend in Beijing, who's a who's a interior designer. And he gave a, you know, very simple layout, which actually looks pretty much like much like what we got in the end, like what we got in the end. But what happened was, we also engaged a London designer, who's also a friend and practically worked for free on this. And I wouldn't say she designed the shop, she walked through, you know, with us the different options. And yeah, she guided us with design work, I would say helped us to choose colours andUnknown Speaker etc. and sounds fine. Yeah. Yeah. And then should we name checker or name checker practice? Yeah. What is her practice called?Unknown Speaker Gatti? Ruth Rhodes? Yes. I think they won some awards recently. Oh, yeah. That's right there. She had all sorts of Yeah, she had. She had an award. At the end of her email address, there was an award for some young architect. Yeah, yes, yeah, that sort of thing.Unknown Speaker But I think they never did a bookshop project. And that's why she was very happy to work on this project for next to nothing fee. So that she would, you know, have this in her portfolio. Right to to,Unknown Speaker to show off theUnknown Speaker show for versatility. So as you walk into the bookshop, what you first notice is you are facing a massive three metre wide bookshelf. And that's kind of a wooden bookshelf, then you notice a round table.Unknown Speaker And then you notice pendant seating light hanging above the round table.Unknown Speaker And on two sides, you have theseUnknown Speaker hanging shelves, that's not standing on the floor, on the two sides. That's the main thing. And on the three wars, we have two tones. So on theUnknown Speaker top one metre, about one metre, it's white, and thenUnknown Speaker from floor to up to say 2.2 metres is a very light grey. And we have positioned our bookshelves such that you have a top line, the grey line runs neatly on top of all the bookshelves.Unknown Speaker And let's say above the above the bookshelves are white. Yes, the walls are white. Yeah.Unknown Speaker Again, making something very simple, very confusing. It's what we're doing here. And we have two chairs as well. So all we have is 12345677 items. So three sharps, one table, two chairs and one light. That's itUnknown Speaker rightUnknown Speaker This This was all furniture that the architectures I mean, the the most important things are the bookshelves. So the architects, we wanted to do this thing as cheaply as possible. And when I first that's the wish, and when I first Yes, imagine the bookshop, I thought we could spend 1000 pounds 2000 maximum on just getting a basic bookshop up and running. Right? So our architect told us the cheapest option would be to buy 10 IKEA Billy bookcasesUnknown Speaker and the Billy set and then just set them up like soldiers all over all around over all around covering up all the walls. Yeah, a BNC that will look ugly for sure. Because you have you can't choose the colour and then or the each individual bookshelf they will be slightly wobbly. They won't line out straight.Unknown Speaker Yeah, they will be flush. So what happens is the architect proposed that a carpenter would what's called a box out so to build fake walls above the Billy bookcase. So it looks like we have the Billy bookcases are living inside the walls. Yeah, like building built in. Yeah. Built in bookcase. Yeah. And that boxing out alone is like 4000 pounds or something. Wow. Or maybe 2000 pounds. It's a lot of money. But anyway, it's about like a lot of money for what was basically air behind it. Yes. For a bit basically, you're actually shrinking the room. Right? You're building additional wars. Yeah, you're shrinking the room in a room that's not that big, you know, huge to start off. Exactly. And then we can build 10 Billy bookcases as we write, we actually tried this option and literally try this, didn't we? Yeah. So successful.Unknown Speaker The architect I think they told us, you might want to buy one billet bookcase and then put it up, and then see if you like it really look like Yeah. And, and I think they realise that. Yeah, there's a good chance we won't like it. And we didn't. Right. Right. So they set us on the kind of you could try this. We don't think you're gonna like it, but you know, try anyway. Yeah. And, but they're different option is they would design like custom make bookshelves twice, which are going to be also very expensive. So that would have been more than the 4000 pounds to enclose the top of the bookcase for sure. That would be I would say twice as much. I did say in the beginning, I wanted a minimalist look. Just the focus should be the books and not the shelves. Right? That's true. And in the book shelving world there is a very famous, what's called a modular bookshelf. 606 universal shelving system. It's designed by Dieter Rams. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Dieter Rams is very famous. I would say he's the Jonathan Ive Yes, a knife took a load of inspiration of Yeah, like he's like Jonathan Ives God. Right. Okay. I didn't know that the calculator design an app is basically just copy and pasted from a Dieter Rams calculator design. Right? So for people who didn't know Dieter Rams was probably working in the 60s and 70s. And maybe late even later, German. He worked for German, a German company, brown brown. That still makes toothbrushes and kitchen staff and shaving razors, etc. But they did a great documentary. We could linkUnknown Speaker link about ram RAMs, Rams. I think it's just called Rams Rams. Yeah. Yeah, we could link in the notes. I don't know.Unknown Speaker But do know that back then. To compare it to, to Jonathan Ive of apple. Brown. Made loads of electronic goods, right like they made Yeah. record players, speakers. Sure. Yeah. calculators alarm clocks, which back then? Probably high tech.Unknown Speaker So yeah, yeah, they were like yeah, what you know what I noticed is brown is reviving a Dieter ram kind of ish design of speakers. And that's interesting because, yeah, because now I think the brown products they don't really look as interesting.Unknown Speaker I nearly did. I think what years ago? Exactly. So they handed the the baton to I would say Mooji. And apple.Unknown Speaker Hmm. And yeah, probably, but then then the Rams also does this v2 thing nowadays, that's his, that's his outfit. This is what sort of going back to the 606 shelf? Yes. Which is now sold by a company called v2. But then, you know, it's massively expensive, isn't it? I mean, we could buy a lot of books without moneyUnknown Speaker to buy three to fit our bookshop with Fitz who would cost a Tesla basicallyUnknown Speaker right a model three it's a cheaper Tesla Yeah.Unknown Speaker Yeah. And but in the end, you know, we found cheaper options. Yeah. That you found these cheaper options or Yeah, I did. Yeah. And right because the architect really was was going to be too expensive designing his own shelves or Yeah, her own shelves. I found two separate things. I basically googled you know alternatives to Dieter Rams bookshelves.Unknown Speaker Alternatives to Dieter Rams. bookshelves. Yeah. And exactly. And all the options are still too expensive. What happened was then I went to a furniture shop in London. that sells nice furniture. It's Conrad Conrad shop. And of course, yeah, yeah. Who who started the shop is Terrence Terrence Conlon who died last year, didn't he? He died not that long ago. Was he a designer himself? Or is he just a dealer? That's a good question. Anyway, I think but basically known as a as a as a furniture seller than a furniture maker. Yeah. So he sells a lot of minimalist furniture, let's say, from continental Europe. And so in his shop, I found thisUnknown Speaker what's called a crossing shelf by an Italian company and Milan Milan based company called kryptonite. Right? And it's super minimal. It's even more minimal than Dieter Rams, bookshelves and rave. And it's a lot cheaper. It's still expensive, but it's a lot cheaper. So then a 606. Yeah, so what happened was, if we were to buy crossing shops for all three wars,Unknown Speaker that would be too expensive.Unknown Speaker I so for the longest war. So this is why we've got two different sets of shelves in this bookshop, you know, yeah. you'd imagine you just have one kind of bookcase. Yeah.Unknown Speaker So basically, as you walk into the bookshelf on the left and right hand side, you have this very minimalist shelf that's floating on the wall. And then right the shelf that's facing you, it's a floor standing. It's kind of like a billy bookshelf. But you know, it's a it's probably nicer looking. And that's a lot cheaper. And I thought it's better to have something that contrasts that looks totally different than, you know, to similar type of bookshops.Unknown Speaker Okay, yeah. break some of the break some of the uniformity. Yes, exactly. So, so that's our bookshops. And I must say the the Niam the architects in it and ended up complimenting you and your choice of of bookcases, and in fact, also showed the design to a friend of mine who was an turns out to be an interior designer, and he was he was amazed at the look of these at least the first bookshelf. Yeah. That went in. So So that's, that's a bookshelf called telco it's a Polish company. And they advertised on Instagram. So Oh, maybe it's in Pinterest. Yeah, I think post is a great source once you you look for bookshelves and then you click on the pictures you use save some you like then they work out your taste and then advertise to you.Unknown Speaker AndUnknown Speaker and these telco bookshelves, basically you can on their web website, you can say, you can completely customise how wide how tall, how many shelves you want, do you want doors, and then once you have the design, they tell you the price you pay, then they produce it and ship it to you. And everything is super simple to assemble. You just do it yourself. Yeah. So it's like really simple bespoke. Yeah. Okay, I would say on our bookshelf, stillUnknown Speaker cost over 4000 pounds. So it's still right. So we're double the original idea, right? Like the original 2000 pound idea was sort of double that. Yes. But we're not like, given what we just talked about, we could have been way beyond 4000 pounds. Yeah, at this stage. Yeah. I don't know I, because we're going to sell books. And we also want to be able to sell other items as well. Because the margins on books are quite thin. And so we don't want to limit our options. So we want the bookshop to look fancy, kind of fancy, not fancy to look tasteful. And so that we can sell other stuff as well. So I guess that's why we overspent a bit on ice shelves. Yeah. Right. Okay. I didn't want two people to walk in and think this shop, you know, is a budget shop, and they didn't feel like spending money.Unknown Speaker Indeed, yeah. Yeah. That's,Unknown Speaker that'sUnknown Speaker retail psychology here. Exactly.Unknown Speaker Is that I mean, anything else you'd like to add to all the various bookshelves? Nope. What about you? Okay. Short, big? Because, I mean, beyond shelves, you there's there's a table in the middle of the space. And a future couple of chairs. Yeah. Now, is that is that just combined to form a, some sort of workstation? I mean, what's going on there? Yeah. Because you need to sit somewhere, right. You're going to work in the shop. And yeah, that's basically your your desk and your desk. And yeah, maybe you can talk about the two chairs. And, and then I write the table. Yeah, yes, a couple of couple ofUnknown Speaker couple of random chairs which wereUnknown Speaker provided on a long term loan from my father's company.Unknown Speaker They seem to have a collection of chairs. And as a few years ago, they moved offices, they move to smaller offices, it means that they had to reduce their collection of chairs, they can add too many chairs for the new smaller premises. So I asked if we could you borrow a couple for our space because I thought they probably fit in quite nicely.Unknown Speaker So out the the chair collection, we have a better, hairy better tire moulded shell side chair. Which one is that? Oh, that's the yellow one. Yeah. Yeah. With the polished Chrome Frame finish. And that's apparently 1960 design. Yeah. Harry bertoia. And then the, the turquoise oneUnknown Speaker is a Phillip stock, Dr. globe model, or Dr. glubb, isn't he? Which one's the turquoise one? I don't even remember that. Look, now. Is it turquoise green, you know, with amazing colours, but that I just somebody says because blue. The yellow one is so yellow. That's the only one I remember. Okay, so there's a blue chair. I see. And what's nice green was turquoise. I don't know it's green. Let's say it's green. It's probably green. It's probably too green to be turquoise. My mistake. And, and what he likes is Dr. glob, sorry, what legs? Does the grill? Yeah, what legs they have? It's gotUnknown Speaker aluminium. Okay, so the rear legs are aluminium. But the front legs are plastic. Are they so is this from the 80s 90s this is Yeah. 1988. Okay, I said she remember when my father got that one? Yeah, it's dead. Exciting. Yeah.Unknown Speaker Anyway, so.Unknown Speaker So, thank you. Thank you to thank you to them for the for the loan of the chairs. Yeah.Unknown Speaker Which of course, means that now one can sit down.Unknown Speaker But I would like to just add those two chairs are mighty uncomfortable to sit on. Really? Yes.Unknown Speaker Gosh,Unknown Speaker right.Unknown Speaker We're gonna need to pad them out with something. I don't know. Yeah. But they look nice. Yeah, they look very, very nice. Yeah. But that's the thing though. These designers you know, they make chairs and then this kind of like, I don't know, I think I think most tears are not designed to be sat on you. No, no.Unknown Speaker SoUnknown Speaker the law I mean, the last thing I was gonna ask you about it.Unknown Speaker The space so the thing that sort of crowns the whole space is is the hanging light in the centre, which is a is quite the showpiece. Where did you find that event? So that I found in aUnknown Speaker little it's kind of like, Is it likeUnknown Speaker a flying open book? Yes. Sort of half bird half book. Yeah. It's like a metal sculpture. It's quite, quite airy and light and hung from two pieces of very thin steel cables. from the ceiling. Yeah. So it looks like you have a book opening up. Yeah.Unknown Speaker Where'd that come from? Just walking past a secondhand shop. In right, yeah, somewhere. I saw the thing before I knew we were going to have this bookshop, bookshop and I wanted yet light. And that light was very expensive. It's, I wrote it down somewhere. It's nearly 900 pounds. Right? So I thought, okay, that's out of the question that will be too extravagant.Unknown Speaker But when we had, you know, have this project, then we then I thought, okay, so we need something interesting in the shop to make it instagrammable. I thought that's exactly what I thought, you know, this is the only thing I thought people might come in, even as they walk past us in the street. It might catch their attention. And do you think do you think they'll wonder if we got any of those things on sale?Unknown Speaker Yeah, I'm sure. Like, if I saw it, I would ask. Yeah, yeah. And I did ask about, you know, the dealer, the secondhand furniture dealer, and he told me that this is probably to his knowledge, a unique piece. That was designed by a Swedish designer. I don't have the name for some clients in the 60s. Right, right. Right. Right. So we need to do a bit of research. Yeah, that that was his sales. Research. Yeah.Unknown Speaker Okay. Well, we didn't talk about the table.Unknown Speaker Yeah, what's happening with the table, it's the proudest achievement I have. So it's a it's a circular round table. AndUnknown Speaker again, it's from Instagram, there is a French company called tip toe, they make the technical term I think, is called f clamp, table legs. So a clamp is somethingUnknown Speaker that holds or holds or grabs something. So these table legs is like a letter F. And then you can actually fit the F openingUnknown Speaker to any tabletop that you may have yourself and then you can screw it tight. So in basically like a workman would use f clamps to clamp anything, but these ones are actually nice looking. AndUnknown Speaker so basically, they are universal table legs.Unknown Speaker So you can order for circular table again, we can save on the cost. We only need three legs for a circular table, whereas if it's a they just go to the legs individually. Yeah, well, or three in Yeah, I ordered the legs from from tiptoe.Unknown Speaker They were posted from France. They are they're actually Alright, the price it's about 55 pounds each so onUnknown Speaker and, and we save on the tax as well. So it's actually less than 55 to us.Unknown Speaker And then the table top the round circular disk top is from the cheapest shop in the UK called Argos. And that's like 100 pounds for a 1.2 metre wide circular table top. But that came in a wooden colour, like a natural key light or oak colour. And I painted it with the surplus floor paint we have the grey colour and the rack as it matches the floor. So our table and the floor is the same colour but that's the designer that's the architects idea.Unknown Speaker Right? Yeah, they you executed it or I executed it terribly. I think you would call it I think you got the clamps. You got the actual piece of wood. Yeah. And then you painted it. I couldn't I painted three coats and I couldn't get it to look very smooth. So what happened was, in the end, I took a sandpaper and I sanded down the surface. So the table alreadyUnknown Speaker He looks kind of worn out a little bit worn out. And tired. You may not I mean, we just did. Yeah. Once we put lots of books on it. Yeah, you You Won't you won't notice he won't notice.Unknown Speaker All right. Yeah, indeed. Yeah. That Yeah, I think we've covered it all. Pretty much. Yeah. Right. So that's the design.Unknown Speaker Essentially it. Yeah. And some some good brands and quite good value for money. brands that, yeah, if you guys are interested to buy these products, you can take a look. I recommend them. Sure. Are we going to include some links? or? Yeah, we're gonna put put some links. Yeah, I look at I want to also add, you know, with those kryptonite crossing shelves that's floating. So you those shelves are screwed into the wall. So they are,Unknown Speaker you know, like 20 screws.Unknown Speaker And if you're going to put books on them, those walls were strengthened, especially. So a builder have put a 20 Cm perhaps plywood against what their reward was there originally, and then painted the whole thing. So we have an extra wooden layer for the so the nails can have some. What would you call it a bite to catch? Oh, I see. Yeah, thing. I don't know. depth. It's depth. Yeah. So you can actually go in there and then take the weight.Unknown Speaker Okay. Yeah. Yeah, because Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We don't want any collapse in bookshelves.Unknown Speaker Nope, not at all. Yeah. most embarrassing.Unknown Speaker The shop now it looks beautiful. Because it has no books and no customers. So it looks very clean.Unknown Speaker No browsers. Yeah.Unknown Speaker Yeah, hopefully it won't. It won't continue to be like that. But at this rate, who knows? Given that we're, yeah, we're still very much in lockdown. Yeah. So have you have you have a word? An interesting English word for for this audience reading English word. Goodness gracious. Sure. Yeah, I have a word. So I was thinking as it's Chinese New Year, and you will all be receiving some moneyUnknown Speaker with all my late look at you know, another word for money, perhaps something that could be considered slang, you know, not, not what we'd say Queen's English.Unknown Speaker And the hundreds of the plenty of different terms for money, but one of them we thought would be interesting is quid.Unknown Speaker Especially as in lungu. Qu ID to EU ID in London. You know, people be just to, you know, to say, rather than, say two pounds might say it's two quid, three quid or whatever. 500 quid, there's no, really? Yeah, until you get into probably lots of zeros. Or you might even say that, you know, still say a million quid. Yes. Interestingly, you might say a million quid. But if you're 10,000, you wouldn't say 10,000 quid you'd be saying 10 grand. So there's a bit where sort of, you know, you might say in the hundreds, you're still on quid, but then once you get to be on the 1000 you might be talking about grand. And then when you reach a million, you'd probably be back on a million quid. Okay, would you reckon? I mean, I don't know. I've never really heard anyone talk about 1000 you know, 100,000 quid, you're right. So when when we were in English class, we were told British money is pounds. And yeah, but when you come to England, nobody actually says this is three pounds. They would say three quid. Can you can you lend me five quid? So it's a good way to know.Unknown Speaker And what Richard mentioned isUnknown Speaker 1000 quid isUnknown Speaker a grantUnknown Speaker right? So this time is one grand one grand, grand assuming 1000 Yeah, I think short 5000 is five grand. Yeah, so quit and grant the quit doesn't doesn't end in Chinese. Don't you talk about quiet. Yeah, we say quiet quiet. And creating brand that you don't put SS at the end. I know you don't say yeah, you don't talk say one quit two. Yeah. Two quids is just quit.Unknown Speaker Well, yeah, yeah, whereas you might say one pound two pounds. Yeah.Unknown Speaker But interesting. I think it's also interesting if you visit North America, they don't understand quid, but they do understand grand. They say grand as well. Yeah, they'll say grand. Yeah. Yeah, but they won't. Yeah, quid. Yeah, no, don't say bucks. bucks. Oh, exactly quit his back. Yeah, yes, but the JC one buck two bucks. Yes. Yeah, I see. Yeah, they pluraleyes it. Yeah. But I don't know whether they say a tenner and a fiver. Oh, five quid into a fiver thing that Yeah. But do they talk in like, you know, whatever it is. Hamilton's andUnknown Speaker the 100 Franklin Franklin. Benjamin, even Benjamin? Oh, no, you should tell us about that word. What is up in Latin? What do you mean what is it been Loudon? You know, like, Benjamin Franklin is on the $100. Bill. Yeah, that's 100. So people say one Franklin or one Benjamin? I don't know. Yeah. In Europe, you have 500 euro note? Cat. Yeah. Yeah. Didn't you tell me that's called a binladin? I did I yes. Like as terrorists etc. A mass 500 euro notes? Yes. Rather than $100. Rather than Benjamin's. They'd rather have 500 euro notes. You don't remember this? Yeah, I might have known this and then forgotten about it. Yeah. Well, anyway, so I think that that's really interesting. It's a 500 pound or sorry, 500. euro note is a binladin. Okay, right. Okay. I see what you mean. So you got 500 has been logged in $100. Benjamin? Yeah. And then otherwise, we got one quit to quit. Yeah.Unknown Speaker Yeah.Unknown Speaker But just a tip. If you visit Europe don't bring any bin Laden's nobody accepts them.Unknown Speaker It's Yeah, let's say you see any of them. Yeah, yeah, it's no it's in France. It's illegal now.Unknown Speaker Really? Yeah. Wow. You don't remember last time I had up in London and I had to visit the Bank of France. Two weeks to break it up. Really? Oh, yeah. That rings a bell. Like Excuse me. I've got too many been lardonsUnknown Speaker Can you give me give me a few days something smaller. How about a couple of you know a few Benjamin's? Yeah.Unknown Speaker Anyway, I'm not sure people say Benjamins. But. Well, thank you very much a joke about Benjamin's famous song. It's all about the Benjamins baby. Oh, I see. Okay, sorry. Yeah. Okay, that's true for you, as well. I mean, we, you know, we've gone off course from quid.Unknown Speaker Alright. Okay. Let's call it tonight. Thank you, Richard. Hello. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you all. Let's talk next month. Okay. Ciao. Ciao.Unknown Speaker suwannee. See Hi, Andrew. GTM otitisTranscribed by https://otter.ai See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Richard Maxwell has created and runs one of the most unique and inspiring creative musical arts and sciences program in the nation. For me, it reminds me of the entry level sound recording program I went through in college, only Richard's students get into the creative process early because of what he had the guts to create. This program happens in an area of the school campus where they have their own section of rooms that is their facility. It's made up of a larger classroom if you will that doubles as a performance room plus they have 15 Pro Tools stations and Pro Tools running in their A and B recording studios. They learn how to be expressive without fear of judgement, they write songs, they mutually assist and critique each others work in a helpful, loving way and it's magical to see what happens on a daily basis. Richard is a loving, caring person who, by his own efforts and fortitude, has created a platform where he can give the students, his very best in regards to guidance, ideas and processes.If you love music, talking about music, the process of making music, what music looks like in today's world, interested in how music could be handled in schools or always wondered how a single person can make a huge change in our education system, these episodes split into Part 1 and Part 2, are for you! Enjoy, share and spread the musical love. ********** Richard Maxwell's Links: Richard's Website: https://sites.google.com/view/richardmaxwell CMAS Program: https://sites.google.com/view/arcadiacmas YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaxwellMusic/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.maxwell.3538 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rchrdmxwll/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/rchrdmxwll LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-maxwell-235ab513/ https://youtu.be/wtg_TV3j_wA ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Part 1 – Richard Maxwell Interview: Richard: Basically on a whim. A weird situation develops. And I get a phone call from the then band teacher of all things at Arcadia. This is the late 90s, I'm giving away my age a little bit, I suppose, but we didn't know each other directly, but he had also gone to U of A at one point. And we've heard of each other and for a variety reasons, it just wasn't happy in Tucson. And he says, "Hey, I have a situation, would you be interested in moving up to teach here at Arcadia? [Richard] "Sure!" [He says] "You want to know what the gig is?" [Richard] "Not really" So we're three weeks into the school year at this point. So I come up and I spent a day with him at the school getting a sense for what it is and I walk away thinking, ok, this could be kind of cool. I want the orchestra too. Because that's where my love was, so, I, I meet the principal, great guy, Jim Lee. And he hires me and in the conversation I said, "Look, I'm so excited for it," it's like a first real, it's a big gig for me, it's a huge thing. And it's I'm going to, you know, bigger city, better music town, I'm thinking all these different things, but I tell him, like, "I know the orchestra teachers a couple years from retiring, I want writer first refusal." And he's, you know, whatever, but he, he agrees, thinking probably I'll forget and I can remember a long interview process, with parents and everybody else. Basically what happens is, is after my first year, a couple of things happened that kind of get things a little weird. So I'm still trying to do my own thing in the world of regular music but I don't know enough about the Phoenix music scene at the time I was trying to hold down this job, that is awesome but kind of beaten me up just because I'm new at it. So I make a whole bunch of changes, you know, he had a very, very big jazz program, which is awesome! I love jazz, but as a director, which I don't like the word director, if it makes me feel like a traffic cop, if I can still want to Greg's themes, but I didn't that wasn't where I wanted to be. So I morphed into more like wind ensembles and we ended some pretty heavy stuff. And there's a bit of a love hate with it, but you can see like the level of musicianship. And I'm like everybody who's gonna read notes, like we're not playing games with this, lot of wrote stuff, a lot of, you know, play it based on your, you know, improvising skills, which is fine and you need to do that as well. But I had a certain level standards and I was still pretty, pretty much full of my own brilliance at that point. I mean, let's not kid ourselves. Joe: And this Richard: And Joe: Was just band at this point. Richard: Was that Joe: Was this just Richard: This Joe: Band Richard: Is band Joe: At Richard: This Joe: This Richard: Is that Joe: Point? Richard: First Joe: Ok. Richard: Year. Joe: Ok. Richard: So the second year, two things happen. One is Jim, I guess, decides the principle that I must not have completely destroyed things. And he comes to me and says, "Look, we have this opportunity to expand your contract. We don't have a choir teacher anymore. Can you take over the choir?" I very foolishly said Joe: Well. Richard: "Yes!" It was bad idea, it  was a bad idea for the kids. It was bad idea for I mean, it was just bad. It was. It was. It was. It was well-intentioned... if had that opportunity now, because I do a lot of stuff with a lot of vocalists now, now I could do it and do it comfortably and make that experience significant in a way for those kids that they would be glad, I think that they had it, not then! Oh, my gosh, not even not, I mean, like, literally, I want you to imagine the worst possible experience for those students and then be grateful if they would have had even half of that level of a caliber of experience. I mean, it was, it was, it was horrible. But the other thing he asks me to do is take over the guitar class slash club. Because Joe: Interesting. Richard: He knows that I gig a little bad and I do the singer-songwriter thing a little bit and the studio stuff a little bit, he knows I have these other interests, but he doesn't really know to what extent. And you know, I'm not responsible basically anybody but myself in terms of my time at that point. I don't have any real you know, why not? And it's money and and it's a gig and I like the school and I like the people there and I like the community and da a da a da. So "Sure, why not?" So I take on this whole thing and basically what happens is, things start to build and eventually you wind up with, you know, I have two full symphony orchestras, winds, strings, percussion, all in the same rehearsal hall every day, all year round. We're still doing a marching band, while my version of marching band, which I have been justifiably criticized many times, I'm not a marching band guy, I'm a, I mean, I love the art of it. But I was I like, you know, one year we wrote our own show, the kids and you know, one year, you know, we were doing crazy, we were, it was just nuts, it was you know, they wanted to do rock shows the last two years. And I was kind of moving away from that because I you know, you just you know what you know and you know what you are Joe: Yep, Richard: Or what you're not. Joe: Yep. Richard: So I was like, okay, we'll do rock shows, but if we're going to do rock shows, you don't need a conductor, that's where literally we're wasting a ah resource, right? So, so we had a drum line, our drum line became our click track, screwed up everything in our scores because you didn't get a caption award and you didn't get points, they deducted points for not having a drum major. Joe: WOW! Richard: So it killed our scores. But musically, I think those kids benefited from that. Because that sense of internal clock and time and how you synchronize and what that does to intonation and every other musical element you can think of. I mean, all the things that you as a very seasoned studio player, let alone all your live work when you're sitting there in the control room, listening to playback on that and you're going, you know, because somebody can't...you know, Joe: Yeah, Richard: I know, you know, but Joe: Sometimes Richard: But Joe: It's me, Richard: well... Joe: So I do know. Richard: I doubt it. No, seriously. But my point is, is that, that, that was sort of where things started to change up a little bit. The guitar program is growing crazy. Some Joe: Still Richard: In Joe: To Richard: Some Joe: This Richard: Ways Joe: Day, Richard: Because it Joe: Are then. Richard: This is then Joe: Then Richard: This is Joe: Ok. Richard: Then. So we've got the orchestra building. We've got you know, there's Joe: A Richard: Now there's Joe: Wind Richard: Piano, Joe: Dancer. Richard: There's, you know, everything's building up and we've got songwriting I introduce because for me I've always been kind of a cool you play an instrument, what can you make with it. Well but it's the clarinet. I don't care, what can you make with it? You know, I don't, it doesn't matter to me. So guitar to me, you know, the first year or two was very much about just technique and then I got very much in to, I don't, I don't care about this technique. Let's write songs, let's make music. And it just so it seems kind of going and going, going and eventually it just, the circumstances are such, that there's basically too much to do for one person or even two people. My oldest son, who came in a minute ago, was born without going too far, but he was born 10 weeks early. And he's obviously, you saw he's fine. But at the time and I'm like, I need a change. I've been at Arcadia at that point for nine years. Joe: You Richard: There Joe: Basically Richard: Is a point. Joe: Have said yes to every single thing they've asked you to do. Richard: Well, Joe: Ok. Richard: But I've also enjoyed the challenge. I mean Joe: Right. Richard: I mean, the truth is, is I enjoy the challenge. I'll tell you, this is heading to something that you're probably going to go either think, WOW!, that's really cool or are you out of your mind or possibly both. But in any case, we, you know, there's an opportunity, that our principal has changed, and we have Anne-Marie Woolsey, Dr. Woolsey is there. And I start talking about this idea. And the idea is why, I'm starting to really and maybe it's just because of my own state of mind, but we're doing all these things with, you know, we have what we call the songwriters and we have the more traditional ensembles, it's not CMAS yet, but it's in its early stages of existing. And I'm actually still, I have I have a couple of now what I would say close friends that are graduates from that time who are incredibly supportive people you might even talk to, you just like, like I'm like, so I'll just, local guys like Thomas Brennaman and Alex Fry and Zach Tonkin and there's a ton of them, there's a ton, Ed Bakerman, Addie. She's still gigging all the time all over the country, she's brilliant. I mean, there's, there's, there's a ton of these people, but Joe: And Richard: They're Joe: This Richard: On one Joe: Is late, Richard: Side of. Joe: This is late. Richard: This is this is still within those nine years. Joe: Right. So this would be since you started there. Richard: This is like 08, 07, 08 kind Joe: Right. Richard: Of thing. Joe: Right. OK. Richard: And I am starting to get and it's just kind of I think it's a culmination of things. Most music teachers at a school are, you know, the average is less than five years, I'm at nine, which isn't like good or bad, it just kind of is what it is. But I'm also really struggling. I realize now in retrospect with this dual musical experience, because you know, this is at a time where these devices are starting to come of age, streaming is starting to become a thing and on and on. And you, I just, other people have phrased it so much better than I have but just this idea that the kids, it's done in their rehearsal and they explore all this music, but then as soon as the rehearsals over, they're going home and what are they listening to? Everything but what they're rehearsing. Joe: Right. Richard: And I understand the argument of well, but that's why you need to have those ensembles and do, and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. But fundamentally, there's something missing, if you are, if you, if the real world has one opportunity and the educational world has one that is completely diametrically opposed to that. And we're talking about something that ultimately comes down to a cultural element, a tell your story, if you will, element, which is what I think all art really comes down to. And that's being effectively either ignored or dismissed or in many cases, I would say, mutated into something that basically makes somebody feel, makes a student feel like somehow their musical instincts are either, I don't know, at best immature. But, you know, you talk about a terrible amount of disenfranchisement and disenfranchisement, you're talking about a terrible amount of just not, they think, they feel like it's not legit, like they're not legitimate somehow, that's their choice, you Joe: Right. Richard: Know, or we don't do that here, kid, that kind of thing. Joe: There's a misalignment. Richard: Yeah, and Joe: It's Richard: It doesn't Joe: Just weird. Richard: Mean anything if you walk the logic through, it doesn't make any sense. And yet, it is still essentially perpetrated across the world and a lot of ways, and I just was like, got to do something, now I, you could argue I went too far to the extreme and I regret but, you know, for all the things we've accomplished and all the things that we've done and, you know, the program is basically now I said, okay, look, I've got all these songwriters, we've got this, this is what I've become kind of like an industry history class. We've got the guitar players. You know, we had the pianist. We've got, we, we have this contemporary thing happening anyway. So I went to the principal and I basically said, "Can I just walk away from the band and orchestra part?" It's become, you know, "It's just not me anymore the way we'd like it to be," the politics with the parents and everything else is getting sick, I was just tired Joe: Yes. Richard: Of it. I don't do well with it anyway. That's why, I just, I'm just, I'm very confrontation adverse. It's just, just naturally. And then you get into like high school band and orchestra parent land, with all due respect and it just wasn't, it wasn't gonna be, I wasn't gonna last long without losing my mind. Plus again, Grayson, ten weeks early. So I held on for one more year and I remember very clearly that last concert we did, you know, the good, the farewell symphony, the Haydn at the, as the last piece. And I remember choreographing it and nobody knew about what I was doing, except for my very good friend, who's still my good friend, the theater teacher who was running the lights for us in the on the stage and the head of the school security who's still there, Jeri Eshelman. I told the two of them what I was gonna do, and that was it. Go through the whole concert, do the whole senior recognition thing, the whole thank you's and all of it and then we do, traditionally, we would do one last song. We do the one last song which the farewell symphony, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with, but literally the way Haydn wrote it was that as it's ending, the players get up and leave the stage until eventually Joe: Right. Richard: Not Joe: Right. Richard: Even the conductor is there and it's just I believe it's just the single first violinist if I remember right. So we did that and I added one element. I walked off the stage and very quietly walked out the stage door to my car and went home. Joe: Of course you did. Richard: I just left. It's kind of rude, I suppose. Joe: It's awesome! Richard: But, but, but it is. Joe: And you're still there Richard: Yes. Joe: And you're still employed by that school. Richard: I am, I am, but doing something very different. And it has been, I mean, you know, we could have an entire series of podcasts on the politics of what has gone on. Joe: Oh, Richard: It has Joe: I Richard: Been. Joe: Can Richard: It's Joe: Only imagine. Richard: It's been. I used to get really angry about it. I still am frustrated by it at times. But now I'm more like, I don't, I'm almost more entertained. Because there are too many people now that like yourself who are seasoned industry professionals or their education professionals, who see the concept of what what we've built there and very specifically say that concept is important and vital and necessary so that, you know, you get enough music education, professors and universities and like I said, actual, real in the industry, people saying this is what should happen. And all the arguments become a little bit silly after a while. So now Joe: Yup. Richard: I'm just kind of like, really? You want to line up, you know, your cynical view against of, forget me, you're going to tell all these other people they're wrong!? Joe: Yeah. Richard: WOW! Even in my most arrogant, I wasn't going to do that. So it is what it is. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it has evolved a lot. I mean, you know, if you look at the setup and even now, I mean, obviously with the closure, Joe: But Richard: Things are different. Joe: Wait, Richard: But. Joe: Before you get past this, so you, you, you state you said you were gonna do one more year. Richard: This is the end of that year. Joe: Ok. Richard: So this is the end of that year. So I basically, you know, and, you know, I made several mistakes, big ones! One of them was, the then head of the district's fine arts and I've talked to Anne Marie since about this and she agrees that she should never have agreed to this. Basically said, ok, we'll support you doing this, but you have to stay away from your old program because you're still going to be on campus and the new teacher needs the opportunity, because, because that kind of community of students is it's a, it's a very family kind of thing. Well, what happened is it became very confrontational between the two programs. My new program is the new "IT." The new teacher is struggling for a lot of different reasons. Put in a situation that she cannot possibly succeed in. You know, imagine being a young teacher and they give you a class of band, a class of orchestra that they've separated now, you have a percussion ensemble, you have a piano class, I think she had a computer class, I mean, it was literally like we're giving you all of the leftovers. It was Joe: Yes. Richard: It was a terrible gig. Nobody is going to do well in that situation under any circumstances, period. It's just. Joe: Right. Richard: A nightmare scenario. But what winds up happening is it creates a lot of friction and a lot of confrontation. And I again, I am so committed to, we have to prove that this thing should exist because I like in my gut, I know it should but I don't have proof of concept yet. There's nobody doing it at a high school, the way I wanted to do it, you know, there was, there were programs that I had found it, then maybe, maybe this is more my inability at the time to search Google effectively. But, you know, you had people doing production. Absolutely! You had the technical side of it and you had people having like composition classes or songwriting classes, even rock band classes or whatever they call them. But I wasn't finding anybody that was looking at it in a more homogenous way, in a more holistic way of it needs to all be, it's all of it, you know. And so I was kind of starting from scratch. I took a lot of college curriculum. I talked to a lot of people that were in the industry and just kind of threw things against the wall to see what would stick. But in those early years, as I'm getting, you know, all these criticisms and destroying this, you know, you're killing the orig...you know, the traditional program, all these things that are provably false and everything else. But that reputation did build for quite a while and I I was like constantly biting my tongue because, again, you know, if I could avoid the confrontation and put it off for Joe: Yeah, Richard: A little while, I'd rather do that bad habit. Don't you know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Kids don't do that if you're listening, don't do that! But I know, so I just, I really I struggle with that a lot. But we kept building things and one of the things that I saw, a couple of things that I've discovered in all of this, which is that, kind of like what I was saying earlier about the shows we did even during the COVID closure, that are very imperfect. If you, if you were to sit down and look at those shows that we did just these last several weeks, you could be arguably disappointed in a lot of there's, there's glitches and sound and some other things like but this is not what, don't you deal with audio and all this other stuff? But that wasn't really the point. And so we would have we have shows and in some shows there's people that are like, wow, you put that act onstage? Really? I'm like, yeah, is that kid now has been on stage and now we can move from there. Process has to matter more. I get in the professional world why it can't on some level but at the same time, boy, I wish it could. I'm Joe: Yeah, Richard: Sure you do too. And a Joe: Yeah. Richard: Lot of ways just knowing you, you know, I mean, you don't, you get duplication and you get repeats and you get even a certain level of perfection, but you don't get real originality unless you're willing to deal with process over product. I mean, you have to really embrace it. You know, Little Richard just died, as you know and it really, I mean, aside from I mean, is there anybody he did not influence in some way? I mean, literally, the man's legacy is endless. The other thing that kind of is horrible to say, but we're getting to a point where we are going to be out of truly original musicians, truly innovative people, there are very few people and I'm not even saying it's an age thing, it's just who's out there doing things that you go, WOW!, I've never heard that before in that context. And they're just, you know, there's a lot people perfecting it. There's a lot of people doing incredibly viable things and wonderful things musically. But to truly be innovative like that. But anyway, I'm so sorry I get Joe: No Richard: On tangents. I'm Joe: Better. Richard: So sorry Joe: It's okay. Richard: He I'm so, so, so this idea of, you know, process becomes really, really important and we're building it. And then. And what I was gonna say is, is that. Joe: But at this point, I'm trying to just make sure that both the viewers and listeners and I'm clear, though, that that you have this woman who is now responsible for these various things like band and orchestra and whatever else she was given that you have now been given the license, you know, the stamp of approval by the principal or Richard: And the district. Joe: The Richard: Yeah, Joe: District Richard: Yeah. Joe: To create this program that involves what at that time? Richard: Ok. So I you know, I'm sorry. Thank you for pulling back. So there actually is another player, analyst named Mitch Simmons, who needs to be mentioned. He is the director of the district's what's called Career and Technical Education Department at the time. And Mitch is brilliant and wonderful and will self-described himself as not having a musical bone in his body. But when I made this absurd proposal to him and I gave him like a 20 page document, like I had a curriculum and I had standards that I had adapted and which later wound up becoming basically the first draft that the state used and is still using for a lot of, a lot of things. Thankfully, they've had other people come in and perfect them and not just be stuck with my mediocrity, but. But Mitch, Mitch looked at and he goes, we so need this, this is the bridge, we've been looking for the bridge. Arts and here's the thing, everybody looks at career technical education, they get so hung up on the t the technology part. That's, in my view, as I get a lot, I get on a lot trouble with actually CTE people. I get, I get in trouble with the arts people for one thing and then I get in trouble for CTE people with the other. The "T" is, is completely to me, is nearly, it needs to be like lower case and in the smallest font possible. It's the "C" it's the career part. Joe: Right. Richard: Where's the job? Mitch saw it even better, like I understood, like it was my idea. But he saw other things in it and he's like "You", he's like, "Oh, my gosh, we can get, kids could get jobs in these industries." I'm like, "Yeah, we could!" And he gave me, I was, it was a perfect storm. He gave me the flexibility to just screw it up and rework it and reiterate it and retry and my principal did the same thing. And coming back to these shows that we had done, I told you I knew I would loop around back to my tangent. One Joe: And Richard: Of the Joe: This Richard: Things Joe: Is still Richard: That I. Joe: 2009. Richard: We're Joe: Is Richard: Still Joe: This Richard: In 2009, Joe: Ok? Richard: But Joe: Ok. Richard: It relates to something that just happened in the last few weeks. When you have students go through a process where we start with essentially nothing and they go through a self derived process or a self adapted process at the very least and then at the end there's a thing. I don't care what that thing is, that is powerful and wonderful and awesome and so that when you have like we would have shows, we still sometimes have shows that are just like, oh, you got to be kidding me. Because underneath that, there's also the, you've got to be kidding me! Joe: Yeah. Richard: Like, I mean, it works in both directions because it's derived and, and one of the things that I've learned is, teachers and educators who live exclusively and vicariously through their students are doomed to get burned out, frustrated and every other negative you can possibly think of. And I, I am committed to that completely. I don't think you can be competitive and creative at the same time. I believe that is like one of my very big mantras. I think that, you have to be your own creative, like I have struggled a lot, like, like thank God for therapy a lot, with not feeling like I've been able to do my own creative stuff. And I've sort of over the last year and it's been a struggle, it's made this year very weird and very difficult in some ways to say, like wait, I need to find a way to have my own creative outlet because it's not healthy. Like, it just isn't healthy. And whether that creative outlet is me throwing a video up on YouTube or a song up on SoundCloud that four people listened to or four million people listened to is kind of not really the issue. But that, we go from nothing through the process that a thing exists. It's all, it all ties together in this weird Zen ying yang thing. But as we grow, you know, we start doing all kinds of live events. We are, you know, we start very cobbled together. The early parts of the program in the early versions of the program, I didn't let the kids record anything in the first year. It was all learn an instrument. Keeps Joe: Did you even Richard: Them. Joe: Have the equipment Richard: Oh, yeah. Joe: That early? Richard: I mean, it was it wasn't what we have now. Don't Joe: No. Richard: Get me Joe: But Richard: Wrong. Joe: But you went Richard: Yeah. Joe: In there and you said, I need this, this, this, this and this to make this happen. Richard: So we started they got me a bunch of iMacs and we got some interfaces and we got Pro Tools early on because I know we're gonna do it for real and I was very committed to the legitimacy. Overcommitted, possibly, that I allowed other things to suffer. That battle that I know, the politics of things that I allowed myself to fall into the traps of these circular logic arguments that now I would never allow myself to do but, you know. Joe: Guy. Richard: Past is behind us and what's been has been, you know, that is what it is, but. But we just kept evolving and it's still evolves and, you know, we've we've, we've gone so far, as you know, there were years, the marching band kind of fell into a state of disarray and almost non-existence for several years. We started playing all of the home games, kind of like mini Super Bowls. Literally wheeling stages out and putting together shows for that. We still do them once a year. The marching band is back and is now for the last several years, like wins every award on the planet, literally. And God love them for it. It's amazing! Not my, you know, but that wasn't me. And that needs to be ok. I have some people that are still mad at me about that too, but whatever I don't, you know. But we, you know, we can go into studios, we go into every couple of years now we've been going to Blackbird Studios in Nashville this is like, in Nashville. This is a multi-million dollar facility. The last time we were there in February, just before all the closure happened, we were, I mean this is how far the things have evolved, this is possibly the greatest, I've gotten a lot of big compliments and they all mean a lot to me. We befriended Steve Marcantonio because he's the uncle of one of my former students. I don't know if you know, forgive the namedrop but Steve, I mean, like he got his start on John Lennon's last album. What, I mean, so you mean he's, the man knows his stuff! He's a genius and the nicest guy in the world. Like, like unbelievably giving of his time. He has come in and produced our sessions at or engineered our sessions at Blackbird and supervised them while we're there. So we're like one of the greatest recording spaces on the planet with one of the most gifted engineers to ever live and it's a bunch of high school students and me. Joe: That's amazing. Richard: Yeah. Life, Joe: How many Richard: Eight life. Joe: How many go to that trip? Richard: We took like 25 or so, this time 30. Joe: And how do you how do they get chosen? Richard: They just decide they want to go. Joe: Ok. Richard: We make it through tax credit. I have, I'm not going to do the cookie dough thing. I'm just not going to. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Hey, I just I can't do it, but and it's expensive and it sucks and we try to scholarship where we can, Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know, we don't take nearly as many. But, but it's an opportunity. We do other things, we go to the conservatory recording arts and sciences. I'm looking at doing more. There's a lot of great stuff here in Phoenix for that opportunity Joe: Right. Richard: Or similar opportunities. But there is something cool about it, I mean, Nashville is Nashville. Let's not kid ourselves. It's just it's a great if Joe: Get. Richard: I could move anywhere and know I could still make a living, Joe: Yeah. Richard: I'd totally I'd totally being Nashville. I Joe: Yeah. Richard: Just. What a great place! But what you say is, is that this is this, this, this is unbelievable to me. So Steve walks in and he's giving the students an orientation and he's talking about all this gear and he gets about two minutes into it and then he looks at me and then he looks at them and he literally goes, "What? I'm wasting our time, your kids already know all this!" Because he's like talking Joe: Nice. Richard: About how, like the studios are set up and everything else. Ok, so that's not even the biggest compliment. We start getting everything set up and the boards placed and you know, Blackbird's provided interns and these are very highly skilled professionals and we've got Steve, ok? I have a couple of my more experienced students, one in particular who's she's like, I don't even think she's five feet tall, she's a graduating senior. She's just really quiet, sweet little girl, Emma. And she's up at the board and he just walks away. Like, not like I'm quitting, he walks away and he leans over to me and goes, "You don't need me." Joe: What's so funny? Richard: He goes, "She's got this!", he's like, "I'm going to just sit here and listen and I'll give some suggestions." And literally, that's how we spent an entire day recording, I don't know, 9 or 10 tracks or whatever it was of the students, some of them are great, some of them not so much, it doesn't really matter. But, you know, he, and it wasn't because he was lazy. Steve is like the least, you know, like between the two of you, it would be a really tough pick of who works harder. I mean, he wasn't just walking away because he didn't feel like helping, he was just like I'm going to give them the chance at this and this is a like it's like an 18, 20 million dollar place. This was not like, you know, these weren't inexpensive facilities with inexpensive gear. This was, you know, potentially massive, you know, liability and he's like "They have, they have this, just just do what you're doing." Joe: And I assume Emma is running a Pro Tools session? Richard: Oh, yeah, yeah, Joe: Right! Richard: A but, but mostly running the board, you know, on the side. I think it was an API. Joe: Ok, Richard: Something worth like more than my house, like Joe: Sure. Richard: 10 times over Joe: Yeah. Richard: In a room, you know, I think at one point Queen had recorded in the same room. I mean, this is not you know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: And who knows who else. I mean, this is unbelievable! I mean, Joe: Right. Richard: It was, but that to me, that was one of those moments where I was like, ok, the ups and downs of everything that may have gone on, clearly, again, at least as terms in terms of the concept, wWe're doing ok. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: If Steve Steve Marcantonio feels like he can let my students run a session on that equipment...ok Joe: Yeah, Richard: I'm going to take that for the win. I just Joe: Sure. Richard: I just don't think Joe: So the program Richard: I. Joe: At this point still in 2009 involves what different aspects? And how do kids get into it or not be in it? Richard: Ok, so I and I still, as much as I can have a, if you like anything at all about music in any capacity, I want you in here. Joe: Ok. Richard: If you're hard to work with, this is probably not going to go well. If you're, if you're lazy, that's going to be ok, as long as you're not blaming me for your laziness. If you own up to it, we'll find a way to make it work. I know that there's a lot of people will say, you know what? "You got to drive the kids, you got to drive the kids." And you know what? That's probably true. I just can't do it because my brain keeps going back to like I get, I get, I get hung up on the I, "You don't want to pick up that instrument and play it!?" I don't, what? what? "Why would you not want to pick up that instrument and play it!?" It literally, doesn't, I can't, I can't sort it, I wish I could, I know that maybe that's a cop out. But basically, at this point, everybody comes in and it's a year of intense, got to play instruments, got to play instruments, got to play instruments. There's a lot of benefits to that. But I start running into a philosophical problem, which maybe I needed to get over myself. But, you know, at the time, the original name of the program was not Creative Musical Arts and Sciences, it was Contemporary Music and Sound. The word contemporary has a lot of baggage, I soon found out. And I also felt like it wasn't really accurate. I wanted the word creative. Joe: Super important. Richard: It needed, it just needed to be there. So there you have the name change. And what, what starts to happen over the preceding years and you know, we get better at producing more material. We are proving ourselves more and more so we can get a hold of more equipment and things of that nature. And all the while, in the back of my head, is this creative name thing happens. You start referring to like what I wanted to be, which is a truly open, creative platform. And so what happens is I start to look at that first year and I go, well, wait a minute, I'm setting up roadblocks for these kids, well-intentioned roadblocks. And I think from a pedagogy standpoint, the idea of you have to rock or a rock...you to walk before you can run. I get it! I understand it! You know, you got to start with, you know, plan like, you know, your 50's kind of surf beats before you're gonna go play Tom Sawyer kind of stuff or whatever, you know, you're not you know, you're not playing a Purdie shuffle right out of the gate. You know, it's I mean, there's you know, and I understand that. But, and maybe this is a, a nod to the reality of the world that students currently live in and maybe maybe it's wrong of me to to say, well, it's ok but there is a, if you're going to be truly open and creative, then you need to be open and creative. Richard: And I started to develop this process where I would look at the program and anything we would want to do or anything the kid would propose and I would say, "Does this move their process forward or not?" And I started to look at the first year and that massive intensity on learning to play an instrument. And I looked at the well, ok, it could be argued that the long term benefits outweigh the short term frustrations but I'm loosing kids. And I'm also, I realize the thing that made me stop having just a year long exploration, if you will, of how to play an instrument, was I realized that the very thing that I was railing against in the traditional music world that, you know, you got to stop telling kids that just because they want to, like the turntables thing, is somehow illegitimate musically. I realize that in my own way I was doing that. And there are so many graduates now that I have been so tempted to try to find on social media and be like, hey, you probably don't remember me, that jerk music teacher you had for a year or two in high school but I wanted to tell you, I was wrong about this part of the approach. And I'm constantly looking like, to me, this is cathartic, like I will confess that in a heartbeat. Whereas other people what are you doing? What do you know? But I'm I can't, I can't, I have a hard... Richard: I look at the program right now. I look at the program in terms of this closure and I even thought, we were doing a workshop yesterday with a bunch of students on some stuff and we got on the topic of it and just their frustrations and the whole thing and I said, honestly, I'm not looking for false compliments here, I said "I would give myself a C plus for how I've executed things as the instructor, as the facilitator." And I'm pretty good at this stuff, I actually have been consulting for years with other people on how to move their game forward and you know, weird situations or whatever. And I'd only give myself a C plus. And, you know, that's really made me think. But in any case, it all comes back to this open creative platform idea. And so what I realized is that when I tell a kid, look, you're going to spend a year really getting good at guitar so that in year two we can start writing and recording. What I've actually said to them is your ideas aren't worthy yet. And the more I thought about it, the more I got really upset with myself. And I just basically decided that whatever happens, happens but I'm not going to do that anymore. And if a kid comes in and all they can do is grab a single drumstick and whack a snare drum in time with their friend. Go back to that Marcus Mumford kick drum idea Joe: Yeah, Richard: A little Joe: Yeah. Richard: Bit, if that's all they can do? We're going to legitimize that because and here's what I found. It's like a slingshot a little bit. Yeah, they seem like they're almost moving backwards in their musical skill set because you're not pushing that but what seems to happen is when you legitimize it a couple of things happened, including they get self-motivated. Because that kid that starts just on that snare drum hitting out time, if they stick with that in the context of I'm making music with my friend, they will get it in time, and then once that's in time, they're going to go, "What happens if I pick up another drumstick and now I've got one in each hand?" And now we have, you know, doubled the rhythmic possibilities. But they're looking at it through the perspective of what can I do with it musically, not all about technique. Technique can't be the "T" for technique can't be important, just like the "T" for technology can't be important. It just can't! The creativity, the career, the career part has to be the over shouting or over overarching thing and it has to be overshadowing everything else on, as far as I'm concerned, a multi expo, an exponential level. It just has to be! So I've continued to move into that. So now the technique is covered differently. I have what I call the, I just, I call it the GAC should be the GEC. It's G, E minor and C and the premise is you're going to learn G, E minor and C or you're going to learn how to keep a very basic beat to somebody else who's learning G, E, minor and C and we're going to have you make a piece of music with those three really basic chords that are all white keys on a piano, that you can play with one finger on a couple of strings on a uke or a bass or a guitar, or you're gonna you know, you're gonna sing unison tones if you're a vocalist or match it with that clarinet or I don't care, it's not about that. It's about seeing the musical connections with somebody else. You are going to collab, that's the other thing, the collaboration part. I can keep bringing on all these "C" words, but it really. They'll become, the self motivation will make up for it. The other thing, too, is, you know, if I want to play Beethoven, I need a certain amount of technique or I'm not getting Beethoven, I acknowledge that, that's important. There is an art to that, that cannot be overstated. But I don't require Beethoven to express myself. And I think a lot of people get confused about that. And I think a lot of people don't understand the importance of it. I think. well, heck, Beethoven himself changed things so radically because he himself believed that he should express himself the way he felt he should express. I mean, I mean like literally by ironically moving away from Beethoven, where if we do it, I think in this context, we're actually paying an odd sort of homage to him Joe: All right. What he believed Richard: Philosophically Joe: In. Richard: in terms of music. And it's just evolved from there. I would rather see a kid get up and play something that's theirs, that is imperfect. But that is them. Then have a kid get up there and feel like, well, it doesn't sound like it's supposed to because that's not what the recording sounded like. Who cares? That's not what it's for. I found over the course, you know, as it's as this is as grown. It was interesting over that, we're finished out. The school year ends next week. But I've been having weekly scheduled workshops that I have kids come into when they can. I should have probably and this is part of my C plus or C minus that I'd give myself. I made them essentially optional as long as they kept up with the asynchronous assignments and stuff. But what I found happened was, is a lot of kids are showing up to these things, just for the sense of showing up to something. You know, we're having conversations that are Joe: To Richard: Rooted Joe: See their Richard: In Joe: Friends Richard: Music. Joe: And. Richard: Yeah, but, but, but, but that's, that's OK. Like, like that's turning into good things. Or I'll go out and frequently what happens is we'll have our session, we'll be talking, we'll come to the end of it, I'll have to go on to something else with another group or whatever and they'll be saying, "Hey, can you hit me up real quick? You know, open up another Zoom?" Or they'll do it on Dischord or whatever and, you know, let's play around some ideas or stuff. So it's, they're still making connections and if they use the workshops for that, do I really have to care that they didn't present the project, you know, in the same circumstance? They submitted the project, will take a look at it or we'll do it in a different workshop. It's ok. I think things like that have to matter more. What I was gonna say and I know, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna hit your two and a half hour mark. I'm so sorry! Joe: So Richard: I mean, I'm, I'm embarrassed. Joe: It's okay...No not at all Richard: I do have to, but I do have to share one other part of the program that has evolved since just last year. And I'm glad you're sitting down for this, because when I describe it to you, it's almost comically funny, but I mean to preface it by telling you that I am now so committed to this because I see the open creative platform element, in such a different way now, that I am, I'm well into my career as an educator. I'm not that old, but I'm old enough. This has given me so much of an interest in what could the next phase of this CMAS program be that I can't even begin to tell you. I would love to bring back the more traditional ensembles. I know, I actually have derived a plan. I know it would work. Politics won't let me do that.  Someday I still have hope but this is different. Out of the blue last spring, I get asked and I still don't fully understand why I got asked. I got asked to, of all things, pilot, no, not pilot. I got us the first started with teach at Arcadia, an engineering design class. Why are you giving me an engineering design class? Well, because you're technically qualified because of the CTE, the way the rules are written for CTE. And you like having the extra contract and this way you can keep the extra contract, because every I look at everything through the lens of my two little boys. That I will literally do I will braid your hair, Joe, for a six fig, for an extra contract. Richard: That's literally where my, that's I mean, I will totally do it. So but so I'm like, ok, sure, why? why not. Right? And I'm, I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but to put it nicely, I'm promised a whole lot of resources and none of them, none of them come through. On a whim, I threw a thing like, the one thing that they said they were setting up for me, the people organizing were like, "Yeah, you don't have the engineering background to come to this conference for us to work with you, really sorry." The woman who was basically organizing it for this conference, not in my district, not at my school, actually still have yet to meet her. I would like to meet her. Jill was really kind. She's like, but I know of this other thing going on. I'm going to call you back in half an hour. She calls me back with these phone numbers. I went up on the phone with these people that are going to pilot for this previous school year, for the first time, they have a multi-million dollar grant through the National Science Foundation to revamp the entire concept of engineering in schools. Richard: It's headed up by and now I am flexing on their behalf. ASU, which is one of the large...I think it's the largest engineering school in the world, believe it or not, Vanderbilt, University of Maryland, Virginia Tech and I forget the fifth major university that is supervising this. And they, because the woman, Jill, from this other thing, this small little training session that they won't let me go to because I don't have the degree in engineering. Got all this experience in audio engineering but none of that, and that's fine. They are all excited and I think they may all be drunk. I don't know what's going on. So literally, they're like, no, no, no, no, we, I'm like, I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, okay, here's your, [Them]"Can you come to Maryland for a week over the summer?" [Richard] "I guess" [Then] "We'll pay for it, don't worry, we'll pay for everything. Just can you come to the University of Maryland, we're gonna do a training session." [Richard] "Yeah, OK." [Them] "It starts Sunday." This is like a Tuesday. They're like [Them] "If you can get on a plane, we want you here for a week to do this thing. We just got to make sure we, we just got dot some "i's" and cross some "t's" or whatever. Richard: So we get to Friday night and I get this call from, you know, one of their head lead, lead investigators on this whole thing and he goes, [Them]"Ok, yeah, yeah, we need you here!" I'm like, [Richard] "Are you sure? [Them] "No, no, no, we've been looking at your website and we've been looking at you, you're the perfect person for this!" And I'm like [Richard] "I'm a musician, maybe, I sure as hell I'm not an engineer, and they're like, [Them] "No, you don't understand." OK, they're like [Them] "Just come to Maryland." So I literally, I booked a flight on a Friday, I get on a plane Sunday morning and Sunday night I'm at a dinner where I am so not the smartest person in the room, it's not even funny, Joe. I mean, it's, and by the end of dinner, I realized what they're trying to do and what they've basically decide, what they've basically come up with and they've done all this research prior to it over the last several years, that the concept of what people think engineering is, is completely off. I say the word engineering not to be funny and flip the script here a little bit on you, what are the first three words when I say engineering that you think of? Joe: Well, I always think when you and I are talking and you say engineering, I'm thinking just sound engineering. That's like so when you keep, you keep talk, you keep talking about engineering, I'm like, what does he know about engineer, like Richard: Ok, Joe: Sound engineering? Richard: Ok, Joe: But Richard: So remove Joe: There's electrical Richard: The sound. Joe: Engineering, there's, I don't know, mechanical engineer, I don't know. There's whatever. Richard: Right. But are you going to minus the sound engineering part, you're not going to time much of any of that to music in any fashion right? And the thing of it is, where they did all this research is that apparently most people don't tie it to creativity either. And they don't tie it to solving problems for people. And they don't tie it to something that I've latched on to that, there's a story behind every single thing that has to get designed or built or created or engineered, because otherwise, how would you come up with the need? And some of these stories are incredibly impactful. So their whole premise is that they wanted to pilot this year, there were nine of us across the country, most of them on the East Coast and the Midwest. I was the only, one part of the reason they got excited, I think was also because I was from Arizona and Arizona didn't have anybody in it. And the University of Arizona was one of the biggest contributors to this whole thing excuse me, not University of Arizona, Arizona state. But in any case, but what started to happen, we start having these conversations. And by the end of dinner, we are talking about what they call the engineering design process and what I have for years been calling and have gotten, I guess you could say, known for of the creative process. And what we start to realize are, well, they're, they're kind of like halfway laughing at me, halfway laughing with me because they understood this already. This is why they got so excited for me, I know and they've told me this since. Because when you take the two processes, engineering, design and creative process and you put them next to each other when you keep the definitions the same, but change the jargon on a few terms, they're not just similar, they're actually identical in a really freaky way. So all of a sudden, last fall, I'm in the summer and fall, I'm like, oh my gosh! Well, now and you have to remember all these years of building this thing, then that whole epiphany about open creative platform and what that needs to mean. And now I just feel like I'm on a mission with this. So I go through this whole year and it's, it's very much kind of an engineering design process, although interestingly, I'm still getting and I still am every year getting the music education interns from ASU, nearly every music I get, I don't know I don't get every one of their music education majors, but I get almost all of them. At some point they spend a semester with me, for better or worse. They're coming in and they're watching this class, too and it's getting really interesting to see. And we're talking about parallels and process and parallels and possibilities everything else. And as we're going through this and I'm having meetings with these engineering folks from all over the country and we're talking about all the connections. And I'm like, I have an idea for year two. And I'm like, so I've built this industry based music program that has proven itself, I'm not saying we've got it perfected, but you know, I have a, I do at least have a reasonable track record for flying a plane while it's being built. Richard: And for upping the possibilities of where we can push things in terms of opportunities for kids. And I've been successful,I mean, it's not like, you know, I think that, you know, on balance, the risk of sounding a little egotistical, it's not unreasonable to say at least "Give me a shot to explore the idea." Right? So I started looking some like I'm looking at the standards for this new program I've been piloting for a year and looking at the state education standards. I'm looking at my music standards and my own program standards. And I'm going, oh, my gosh, we could take all of this stuff, you know, speaking of mixers, could have a kid build a mixer. Why not? They're going to have to, I mean, there's electrical engineering in that, we're getting into mechanical engineering because of what a mixture does in terms of its functions, in terms of controlling the sound of space in a room. There's all kinds of engineering already that and I was starring in little projects throughout the year. You know, had them designing windows. We'd need a window between our control room and our life studio space. These are the champagne first world problems that we have in CMAS. But I had the engineering students designing how that would look. We were talking, you know, the lighting on the soundstage and how can we build a different mechanism, door thresholds. I mean, we were already starting to do some of these stuff, at least as concepts and on all these different things. And I'm like, there's so many things. So I called the head of the State Joe: Wait, Richard: Department. Joe: Wait. Please Richard: I'm sorry. Joe: Tell me please tell me you're addressing the the buzz that can potentially come through the console from the lights Richard: Oh, absolutely. No, Joe: And Richard: We're talking about the electrical Joe: Please, Richard: Interference. Joe: Please tell me you're you're talking about the the awful sound of the air conditioner when it comes on while you're in the middle of Richard: Absolutely, Joe: All those all those Richard: All Joe: Things Richard: Those Joe: We Richard: Different Joe: Struggle. Richard: Things. Joe: That's right. Richard: You know, right now above my head, there's a fan because we live in Arizona and this is a house that I've been very lucky enough to be not to convert to a nice home studio, but it's still a house not built as a studio from scratch, you know. And we're talking about things of that nature, you know, how do you deal with isolation when you don't have isolation? I mean, you name it, we're, we're dealing with all this kinds and it's endless and this is my point. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I have this idea my, my district, God love them, doesn't quite see it. But the people who run the pilot with the National Science Foundation, they're looking at, they're going, "You're basically just talking about changing up the projects, not really changing up the standards of the curriculum goals." And I'm like, "Exactly!" Because it's the same thing, the prob...I mean, it's just the same thing. So I call the state, the head of the State Dept. of Ed, who I get along with to be fair. And I'm just like, "I just want to run this by you so that if anybody comes back and says you can't or shouldn't." And she hears that and she's like, "That's just I said, I already wanted to take your classes and now I now, I think I'm going to like, I'm going to come take your class!" Like she's all over it, but she's giving me ideas. So now, just to give you a sense of where this is headed, she goes, "OK, what about this?" I looked like she was even worse than I was. She's like, "What if you had the kids simulate like they're touring, like they're, they're a production company for a tour and they have to get the band from, let's say, LaGuardia Joe: That's awesome. Richard: Airport Joe: Yeah. Richard: Over to London and they got a design like, how are they going to put the gear on the plane? And they've got to calculate now, like, how much tonnage can they actually take and what are they gonna have to buy or rent over there versus what can they take it? How are they gonna get all these other things calculating like the air velocity and how long it will? Well, I'm like, we are so open like that, I mean, like the creative options are there, the industry options are there. And if you had told look, if you had told me years ago that, first of all, I'd be making, you know, my day job would be an education and I would enjoy that, I would think you were nuts! If you told me that I would be developing a pilot for an engineering program that somehow tied in the music industry legitimately and I'm not just like phoning it in and I'm like passionately committed to it. I would have had you locked up somewhere for being certifiable. But, but, you know, back to the original thing and I know that sounds funny, but this all still comes back to those key concepts to me, and that's why I'm excited about it. To me, what is the, what does the art need? Well, the art needs engineers. The art needs musicians. The art needs producers. The art needs...and I'm not just talking about sound engineers. They are important too. The art needs marketing. We've actually had and you've mentioned we've brought in a marketing track a little bit into, you know, what we do with the program. Anything that's industry based, the career part, you know, if it's career based, if it's creative, if it's collaborative. We should be able to do it, and if we can't, what I have learned is that's not because we can't do it, it's because we haven't figured out how to do it yet. And so I'm really big on any silos or any walls that block creative process. I'm knocking them down, you know, and I'm going to try piss off some people doing it. This engineering thing, there are some people that aren't thrilled about it and I'm gonna have to work through that at some point with them, just like there are people who aren't happy that the program exists. You know, on the music education side of it. Joe: That, to me, is just, blows my mind because and Richard: Because Joe: I Richard: Your career, Joe: Don't get it. Richard: But that's because you're career oriented. To you, you love the art but you also know what's necessary to pay the bills. Joe: Yeah, but it's just, it's a tool set that is invaluable because you're, you're going to run into situations where you're gonna be like, I'm so glad I was a part of that, because I can take even that one little piece of it and it's going to help me get through this moment. I mean, to be able to be a musician but at the same time, understand the process of recording, of acoustics, of, you know, so many other things. It's, I don't know. I'm blown away to even hear that. But that's. Richard: I, I, I hate to say it, but it's true. I mean. But like I said, part of me now looks at that and thinks it's just kind of funny almost. And not to, I don't I'm not wish, I'd like, I don't want the confrontation. But I mean, like the people that are going to say no to this, are going to go on record and saying those five major engineering institutions. You know, the National Science Foundation is wrong, Joe: Yeah. Richard: That that's not a real engineer. The state, the Department of Ed for the state, which is funny enough, almost like the smallest bat to swing in all of this, and that's a huge bat to swing. So I'm just kind of like, I'm just going to keep moving forward. It's good for the kids, the good you know, my site administration think they've, they don't get it, but they like it and they're kind of like, we're just going to stay out of your way. I'm not really worried, you know. I mean, it'll be what it'll be. If I'm wrong, I'll go find some, I mean, I guess I'd go find somewhere else, but I just don't I know I'm not wrong, I hate to say it that way. That's such a horribly arrogant thing to say after I talk all of that about not being arrogant. But these people have convinced me people like you have convinced me, you know, like I said, the industry part of it. Why? You know, of course, we all want to be A Listers with valets and somebody plugs in all our gear for us and everything else. But at the same time, the best musicians know how their gear works. Joe: Yeah. Richard: They just do. And to some extent, want to go and make sure it's, like even if they have somebody who plugs it in for them, can you honestly tell me? Look, I know you've had gigs where some but, you know, you've got a drum tech or whatever. You don't go and check that kit before before you perform on it? Just Joe: Yeah, it just Richard: I mean, it's Joe: It's part of your being. Yeah. Richard: Exactly Joe: Yes. Yeah. Richard: It's absurd not to. So I think all of that put together. This is fascinating to me. Joe: And you've already proven the concept. So you would think that, I guess that would be the most frustrating part for me is that you've already proof of concept been done. It's how many years is the program now been in running. Richard: It's officially 12, I guess. Joe: Because of the CMAS program is 12 years, is it, is it, you're in the program from what? What year of high school. To. Richard: So well, and this is becoming an issue, too, it's always been open from freshmen through senior. Joe: Ok. And is it you're either in it or you're not? Or is there tracks that you can say, I'm interested in the sound recording track. But I'm not Richard: Ok, Joe: Interested Richard: So, Joe: In the songwriting Richard: Yeah. Joe: Tracks. Richard: As he was saying, so I'm going to take the this new engineering, in the traditional word of the word engineering, I'm going to set that aside, because that's where that's going to take some years to develop. Richard: So I'm going Joe: Right. Richard: To set that aside. But as far as the rest goes. Basically, it's what's your interest? I want to be in it, I want to I want to do sound engineering. I want to be a producer. I want to be on the stage as the performer. I want to be a beat maker. You name it and again, I, I, I want to promote the shows. I want to make the music videos, whatever. OK. Everybody's gonna go, there's like some core things, I need everybody to understand the basics of how this microphone works that I'm talking. I need the basics of why your headphones need to go into an interface and what that interface does. I need you to understand the stuff on the walls here, why it does what it does and why it's actually not gonna soundproof the roomm, it's only treating the roo

Richard Maxwell has created and runs one of the most unique and inspiring creative musical arts and sciences program in the nation. For me, it reminds me of the entry level sound recording program I went through in college, only Richard's students get into the creative process early because of what he had the guts to create. This program happens in an area of the school campus where they have their own section of rooms that is their facility. It's made up of a larger classroom if you will that doubles as a performance room plus they have 15 Pro Tools stations and Pro Tools running in their A and B recording studios. They learn how to be expressive without fear of judgement, they write songs, they mutually assist and critique each others work in a helpful, loving way and it's magical to see what happens on a daily basis. Richard is a loving, caring person who, by his own efforts and fortitude, has created a platform where he can give the students, his very best in regards to guidance, ideas and processes.If you love music, talking about music, the process of making music, what music looks like in today's world, interested in how music could be handled in schools or always wondered how a single person can make a huge change in our education system, these episodes split into Part 1 and Part 2, are for you! Enjoy, share and spread the musical love. Richard Maxwell's Links: Richard's Website: https://sites.google.com/view/richardmaxwell CMAS Program: https://sites.google.com/view/arcadiacmas YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaxwellMusic/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.maxwell.3538 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rchrdmxwll/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/rchrdmxwll LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-maxwell-235ab513/ https://youtu.be/KPMuQNW9GL4 ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass/ ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world.For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Part 1 – Richard Maxwell Interview: Joe: Hey, Richard, great to have you, man. I'm glad you could come on the show. And as you know, I'm a huge fan and when I reached out, I figured, you know, while we're all in this COVID-19 thing, you aren't quite as busy as you usually are. So I'm glad Richard: Different Joe: I was able to Richard: And Joe: Get you in here. Richard: Different, busy? No, I'm I'm I am as I'm I'm as big of a fan of yours as you are always so kind to me as well. So Joe: I Richard: I think Joe: Appreciate Richard: A Joe: It. Richard: Mutual admiration society. But that's Joe: Awesome. Richard: A Joe: Yeah. Richard: That's a good thing. I'm flattered to be here. Joe: So I know just from my own personal experience with you that you are a multi instrumentalist because I know that you and I have a kinship with drums for sure. Richard: Yes, we do. Joe: But that's pretty much where my talent starts and stops. And then you go on to songwriting and playing guitar. And I'm sure you play the keys. Richard: Yeah, but. Joe: So. Richard: Yeah. But to be fair, your skill you have in, like your little finger in drums eclipses my entire rhythmic independence and abilities beyond belief. Joe: Now that you talk about being too kind, that's too kind. Right. Richard: Well, no. I mean, you are a masterful musician in your own right. Absolutely. Joe: Well, Richard: I am Joe: Thank you. Richard: A jack of all trades, master of none in some ways. But I think that I mean, for what it's worth, the multi instrumentalist thing is partially due to the control freak nature of my personality, I think. I've had time to analyze this over the years and some of that I'd like you know, I'd like to be able to sort of be like, yes, I love playing all these instruments and I do. But some of it is because somewhere along the line, it was hard to find people that I felt like I could say, hey, let's do it this way, you know, and some of that was because I was probably not probably I was really difficult to work with. I think myself. So I started just kind of trying to figure out ways to do it on my own. On the other hand, you do learn a lot when you explore other instruments. So there's a lot of instruments that I will pick up and play badly just for the sort of joy of seeing what it does. What's that? But I like that. I think I think I think musically, there's something about process for me. You know, I'm I'm at an age where, you know, there's a lot of "what ifs" in my life and in my career musically. So now, you know, it's interesting because, like, I think you're, you're in, you're at a point in your thirties where you like all of those things are sort of like, oh, man, if only I had. If only I had. And then, weirdly enough, you get to a point where you're like, wait a minute, I actually now this actually means like artistic freedom. Which has been fascinating for me, and I know we also want to talk about, you know, the program at the school and stuff, but it sort of relates to it like, like you start to realize, like sometimes that's actually more valuable. Like there's a ya know, there obviously we all want to be Springsteen or Taylor Swift or whoever is that, you know, that that A-list group. Of course. I mean, who wouldn't want Joe: Yeah. Richard: That lifestyle and and those opportunities and I think that anybody who says they don't, is probably not being entirely honest. On the other hand, you know, I remember, I've been biking through this COVID stuff as much as I can so I, I have one ear with a couple different podcasts that I listen to and when John Prine died, when and if you know who he was or Joe: Yeah, Richard: Not, is Joe: Absolutely. Richard: Really a brilliant songwriter. So there was this one podcast that was talking about him that had said something that just stuck with me. I was never a huge John Prine fan. I mean, I respected the guy, but they were saying how he looked at his career and at one point, the fact that he never had, like, that top 10 smash hit was a detriment. But then the music critic who, who's pretty, pretty brilliant guy, he goes, yeah, but on the other hand, when you talk to people about his entire catalog, everybody's like, yeah, but everything's brilliant and not having that hit, like, he wasn't identified by a particular sound or of particular time and he could always kind of do what he artistically wanted. I've become more fascinated by, by that than, than anything else. And I talk a lot about that with my students, you know, in their process to like, you know, that thing that you love is wonderful. But what's like, what's the step before and maybe what's the step after? And are you and frankly, are you allowed to even take it? You know, we get very critical of artists and what we see on TV and on, you know, any video and YouTube now and everything else, but sometimes I wonder, you know, man, it's that the pressure to sustain that, whatever that thing is for them. I don't know. I know it sounds weird to maybe people would say, oh, he's just copping out for whatever. I don't know if I'd want it at this point in my life. Joe: Yes Richard: You don't. I mean. Joe: That's funny because I've had the same conversation with myself. I totally in my heart and in my soul and to be truthful to myself, that's all I ever wanted. And then it took me until I don't think it was that long ago that I actually was able to look myself in the mirror and go, you just didn't put in the work. You didn't put in that extra thing to allow yourself to rise above to be noticed. It just, it didn't and I know that, you know, I just I just never went that last whatever it was Richard: Sure. Joe: To get Richard: But then, Joe: It done. Richard: On the other hand, you know that what's the cliche about, you know, one. One door opens and another and one closes and another opens. I mean, you just you know, I've come to realize that. That that. Things happen for a reason like, like, you know, along the lines of what you're talking about. So, like, I never took the risk to, like, go out to, I've been to L.A. enough times that I kind of have a love hate relationship with that city in some respect, I think, like everybody does. And places that nature in terms of the industry. But I never when I was in my early 20s, you know, I didn't do the stereotype I wanted to but the thing of it is, is that I know now, looking back, if I'm like you're saying, being truly honest with yourself, I'm truly honest with myself, I know for a fact that if I had gone out and done that, then, it wouldn't, I would have, I would have destroyed myself, probably like I wasn't going to hit it, like it wasn't going to happen then. It Joe: That's Richard: Just Joe: Interesting. Richard: It just wasn't I wasn't ready. Joe: The. Richard: I wasn't you know, I am a very slow process learner. It takes me a long time. I guess I'm not OK with it, you know? I mean, I'm sitting in this, you know, not to sound funny, but on the other hand, I'm this is everyday for me where I am right now. Like, Joe: Right. Richard: This is you know, I was I was in a position we were able to get a house built. And it's not like it's that fancy. And I'm not going to show you. I could show you what I'm looking at out my window. But like, if you saw like, there's just gear and stuff everywhere, it's a mess in the studio. But the fact that I'm able to sit in a studio every day, I have opportunities where I can make music on my own terms. You know, I'm thinking about everybody I grew up with and stuff like that, that's, that's not so bad. You know, I mean, I'm not like like taking a, like, sort of second place on that either, I mean, you know, I have I have friends, I have students who tour, former students who tour all over the world now. And I'm so proud of them. And it but it's brutal, I mean, it's just I mean, not even I'm not even talking about, like, the COVID stuff. I mean, just that lifestyle in general and trying to maintain that, I mean, it, it I did I did some of that, you know, like one hundred years ago. But, you know, it's I guess, I guess maybe I feel lucky we live in a time where I can feel fulfilled in some ways. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and it's so funny because I just the last guests that I had on it, we actually talked for two and a half hours and I won't do that to you. And it was I'm going to actually blame it on him because he's such a great storyteller. But I had Nate Morton on who is the drummer for The Voice, and him and I have become good friends over the past few years. And, you know, we went through his early childhood then, you know, going to engineering school, of all things, and quitting it because it was he knew it wasn't in his heart. Going to Berklee and then the connection that I'm making here was you talking about L.A., is he said that I knew I had to go where the gigs were of of the caliber that I wanted. I know I could have stayed in Boston, but I wanted to play on a hit TV show or I wanted to tour with the best of the best. And so he said, I just knew that that's the only move that I had with the two things that he he points out the two biggest things, decisions he's ever made in his life, even to this day was, number one, going to Berklee and number two, going to L.A. And without those combination of those two things, you wouldn't be where he is today. Richard: Sure, sure, Which Joe: So, Richard: Totally makes sense. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Which makes sense and for everybody, you know, and you've got to find your place in it. I don't know. Who knows? I mean, we're not that old. You never know. It's, I mean, to me, mean and the industry is different now. And there's, you know. I mean, because I work obviously I work with a lot of teenagers and a lot of 20 somethings and they're all and they're wonderful. But it is interesting how, like, you really can almost you can almost like feel the sort of like flash in the pan kind of vibe of whatever they're, they're currently into. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Which I don't see that as a criticism. I just mean, you know. Sometimes you, you know, I wonder, like, yhere are certain artists or certain bands and, you know, they used to get like, you know, the joke was like the oldies circuit kind of thing. But at the same time, you look at what those musicians are doing and there's something about the fact that they're that they're playing like, like I feel like that state, even with all the technology and I am a technology guy, let's not kid ourselves. Joe: Right. Richard: At the end of the day, it can't be about the technology. And I feel like there's something, you know, like. And I know they have all kinds of ups and downs with personnel and issues of personality. But like journey of all the, you know, sort of like stereotypical cliche kind of bands in a way. But it is interesting to me that decades on, when you see them play they're play like they're actually are playing Joe: All right. Richard: Late. And I think that's the right partially think that that's a big part of the reason I think that people go and see the Rolling Stones play. Because they're playing like like it's not tracks, it's not you don't you know, you don't go into their show going, well, they're going to produce it this way or produce it that way. And I don't think that has so much to do with age. I think that has to do with approach. I've become a big fan of all crazy things. I tell my students I always find this funny. I found myself a few years ago and I couldn't figure out what it was. At first I would I would be in here like in the studio and just kind of like I'd be doing like paperwork or like just whatever, like just I wasn't working on something, but I'd want happened in the background and I would find myself streaming from YouTube, live bluegrass. And I could not for the life of me, I don't like, I'm not like a country guy, I don't, what in the world is happening? You know, that's like my having, like, some sort of, like, long, weird dystopian out of body midlife musical crisis... Richard: I mean, like because I mean, I was, you know, my first musical love was classical and in prog rock. And then I got into rock and anything else. So like bluegrass is is just. We're, we're, we're moving on in a chain that was so bizarre and then I finally figured it out and it was because it was pure, like it's a bunch of guys and girls sitting with acoustic instruments, basically, and they have to play them. The instrument has to respond. You don't get the benefit of, you know, all the other stuff if you don't do it, it doesn't happen. And I have that has become incredibly compelling for me. And now so I've been spending years and I don't know if you want to get into this part of it or not. But I've been spending years trying to figure out a way to marry the two. How can you like my big thing right now is. How do you take like I love loopers, for example? The textures you can create. I really dislike the lack of in the moment control you have, though, with a looper, because once you do a loop, you're basically stuck with it. Joe: Right. Richard: You know, you can stop it. You can start it and sign. But in real time, I want to sit down like, like when you sit down behind a kit, you know, I want the high hat to respond as I'm playing it, not in some prefabricated way that I can no longer alter in any way. So I've been working on trying to figure out a way to play with all of the layers, but have them respond to me like I was sitting down behind the kit and doing it organically or at a piano or on a guitar or just, you know, a kazoo. I don't care what the instrument is but the idea that it responds immediately to me, that's a more interesting use of all of this. So anyway. Joe: What are you doing? Yeah. Not to go too far because we know, but it's interesting now, what are you doing to do that? Richard: So a lot of it has to do with um, figuring out ways to like, look what makes up the layer that you need. Do you know what I mean? So like like a loop for me, when I was like, you know, you there's there's people that are brilliant data. I mean, and that's the other thing, too. You know, you're you know, Ed Sheeran is a brilliant songwriter. He is gifted on so many levels and he's kind of perfected the looping thing. You know, Tash Sultana, I don't know who she is or not. Joe: I don't Richard: You should definitely look her up. She Joe: Work. Richard: Is. Oh, my gosh. She is about the most organic looper I've ever seen in my life to the point where you can tell that something glitched or made a mistake. And it's like she does it, it doesn't stop. She's so in the moment about the music she's making and it's it's just frickin' brilliant. It's unbelievable. But the point is, is that, you know, you start to look at all these textures and you start to see some commonalities. And then funny enough, I, I started looking at, well, what do I really need? Like like when when I when a singer songwriter starts a loop performance, a lot of times, you know, they start with like a drumbeat kind of thing, right? And, you know, they've got their acoustic guitar and they're doing all kinds of stuff. And there's not I mean, it's cool. But then it's like, well, what is that really about? You know? And so I had gotten really heavy into Mumford and Sons, of all things. And I'm watching Marcus Mumford, especially when it's just the four guys. Sorry, four guys [shows fingers]. And, you know, and the and he's doing you know, he's just got that kick drum and he's got that weird little pedal mechanism for the tambourine. But it's essentially he's doing all that momentum off of a kick drum. And because it's so well played organically, you can hear the rest of the drumkit, but you don't actually need it. I know for a fact that you in studio work because, you know, I've talked about this. You have a less is more kind of approach. You know, you don't have to you know, don't get me wrong, we're all fans of Neil Peart. I mean, Joe: Yes. Richard: You know, God rest his soul. The man was a genius on so many levels, but we're not gonna be able to pull that off. Like, I mean, he he could he could fill the space and you didn't go "Well, that was gratuitous." Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know, that's a I mean, you know, he's like he's not the only drummer. I think that could really get away with that consistently. Simon Phillips may be another one. But that's just and that's just just my opinion. But my point being, what I've basically been doing is I'm looking at the layers of what can you actually do and then essentially it's a variation on voice splitting. So if I take a tone and I branch it out and I noodle with it and essentially process it in a certain way, you don't necessarily know what it is that I'm playing from. But then it goes even further, and I promise we won't stay too long on this. But just because this is where my brain goes, Joe: That's right. Richard: Still, I had developed this hole and there's some video and stuff you can I mean, I'll send you some links and stuff of early, like prototypes of what I was doing and it's fun. But it's are real, first, I was a real pain to get a song prepped. Like the irony of the amount of time it would take me to get a song prep so that it could feel natural and organic was just like killing me. Like it, it became so creatively so, so I went back, I've gone back and I've read redressed it. And the crazy thing is, is so I started looking at instead of for the drum kit, I started looking at the relationship between the kick drum and the bass drum. And part of that was because at one point years ago, I had developed this really cool way to simulate what sounded like drums off of an acoustic guitar without having to play it as a loop like it was coming essentially off the strings, believe it or not. And it sounded really cool. And then I would do like some coffeehouse gigs or some, you know, whatever, some small shows and things, theater kind of gigs and stuff. And I realized that people like if they knew what I was doing, they'd be all over it. But just as a listener, it was like, oh yeah, he's got backing tracks. An I'm like, no wait, you've missed the whole point. And then I realize. And then. And then you like and I know, you know, you perform all the time. You can't really blame your audience if they if they don't get what you're doing, that's on you. You know, there's only so far you can go. Oh yeah. They didn't understand like Joe: Right. Richard: I mean, it's just, you Joe: Right. Richard: Know, you can't play that game successfully. I don't think anybody can. So I've gone back now and I've started to look at what really is required for momentum. And can I treat like for some reason, hearing a bass line off of a guitar? We'll make that jump. I'm still trying to figure out how far do I go with the actual percussion sounds and things, but that's also to me, part of it is I'm a big process guy. I come back to that all the time. This, to me is fascinating. I've been playing with this concept since before my oldest son was born. And I'm really, really freakin old. It's been a long time, Joe: No, Richard: But Joe: I Richard: I. Joe: Really friggin old. Richard: Fair enough... Joe: I Richard: Off. Joe: Don't. Richard: Fair enough, now you're not. And it's just a number anyway, Joe: Right. Richard: Even if you were. And even if I was. No. But seriously, you know, to me, it's the process. I think that. That's the fascinating part. I am reminded Mick Jagger has been asked how many times what you know, "How do you write a hit song?" And I love his response in certain in one interview. He's like, "I don't know and as soon as I figure it out, I'm probably done." Joe: Yeah, Richard: Like, I don't want to know Joe: Yeah, it's interesting. Richard: Why it looked like it. It kind of ruins the magic of it. Joe: Right. Richard: I think there's great merit in, you know, I think art in all of its forms. And for me, it's music is its own, kind of like its own living, breathing entity. And you communicate with it. And, you know, if you if it's if you're working with it collaboratively, it's there's some way, you know, these amazing things will happen. And if you piss it off, it's like it takes its toys and goes home and then you're stuck. And I don't know what to do anymore. I mean, that's but that's that's literally my my thing. Which maybe I don't like I said, I can talk for like I went two and a half hours. I can so beat that Joe. I have. Oh my gosh. I love Joe: So Richard: The sound of my own voice. Joe: That Richard: I'm not going do that. I won't do that to you. Joe: No. Richard: But I know what it's like about the program. Joe: Well, no but, but because we talked about a couple of things here, I'm just going to put. Just add my own two cents based on, you know, the whole looping thing for me. I also love and I'm enamored when I watch it done. The problem that I have when it's in a live situation and I deal with it with the people that, you know, my other persona is being the owner of Onstage Entertainment, right? So booking a lot of entertainment in here in both Arizona and Colorado. I, I have to ask some of them that, OK, I don't mind you looping, but you have to get into the song within the first, like, minute to loop the layer, you know, the layers. And there's I don't know, I don't loop I mean, I don't do it. So I don't, I can't tell them what to do and I can't feel their pain. But if you're going to do it, you got to be quick at it and you got to figure out how to get into the song quickly because people whose interest it just. Richard: Well, you're not wrong. I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, you know, mostly, you know, you do the looping thing and it's like the first time, the first song. That's really a two and a half minute song that takes you 12 minutes to perform. And the audience is like, okay, that was cool. Three songs in and I can tell you this from experience. Some of this is because I don't have the gift that certain people do for looping, which is probably why I gave up on looping in some respects, and now but now I mean, like again a door closes. This is so much more creatively interesting for me. But, you know, three or four songs in the audience is always like we've seen this trick before. We know. We know they. They don't know what's gonna happen specifically, but they kind of know where it's headed. And I think some of that's the lack of interaction in all honesty, I think that's why you see some people like, you know, time. But the looping thing I've I. The one thing that fascinates me about Ed Sheeran is genius level songwriter, brilliant performer. Albums sound nothing like the live show albums are basically a band. Then he goes out by himself, which is very fascinating to me, you know, but on the other hand, I kind of respect it because that kind of I absolutely respect it because to me that's using looping in an effective way, using technology in an effective way. But I'm with you. I, I can imagine, you know, that battle. You're right, people don't, but especially, you know, bars and clubs and stuff. There's Joe: Yeah. Richard: Only so they that you can go and. And again, I think one of the things I know I deal with this a lot with my students is, you know, there is a line that you have you have to accept the fact that if you're going to go off on those musical tangents, that may be incredibly invigorating for you personally, you have to be willing to accept the fact that, you know, you may not get all the gigs you want. You know, or you may not get the type of gig that you think you deserve because people are going to you know, if that's you know, if that's not what the listener wants, that's not what the listener wants. And then, then and then that needs to, but that has to be OK, too. I mean, I think, you know, I firmly believe it's kind of like there's two music industries in a way. There's the industry that we see on TV that, you know, is, you know, is is the big influencers and stuff. And the award shows and everything else. And God love him for it. I like I said, I would love to have their problems, but then there's all this other stuff, but isn't going to make it beyond, you know, it's going to play the smaller clubs and it's going to be in in more intimate settings. Richard: But that's OK, you know what I mean? Like, that's OK. And at least now that's when you and I were growing up. You know, we were we were still of the generation where if it did come on the radio, you didn't hear it. You know, or you had to really I mean, I can remember you would spend hours at a record store. Because you couldn't return it. You know, I mean, you really chose carefully, you know, those, those you know that 10 bucks or 20 bucks or whatever it happened to be, you know, before we really got into the whole Napster opens up streaming for us. You know, world. You know, it's a totally different thing in it's interesting talking to my students about that, because some of them... It's that they are still very careful and they'll tell me they're like, my time is valuable to me. And they'll stay, but, but there's still even with them, there's still a sense of acceptable risk. You know, for, whatever, 10 bucks a month or whatever you spend for whatever streaming platform. I mean, that's like, ya know, that's insane to me. Joe: Yeah, Richard: I mean, Joe: Yeah. Richard: That you can get pretty much every recording that exists for 10 bucks a month. Which Joe: Yeah, Richard: Then also Joe: It's. Richard: Begs the begs the question, is it worth being worried about signing the big record deal anyway? Because you're not gonna make any money for it anyway. Maybe just go make what your heart wants you to make artistically. You know, 50 percent of not much. OK, now you are getting that much in the first place. But. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's for them, you know, for all of us these days with the streaming part of it, it's like drinking water through a firehose when it comes to the amount of content you can actually take in. Where you? Yeah, and you and I are talking. It's like, yeah. Go to the right. You know, you you mowed for lawns. You have ten bucks to go buy the one album that you've been waiting to get Richard: Exactly. Joe: In. Richard: Exactly, exactly. But Joe: Yeah. Richard: It made it so much more, you know, I cannot remember buying an album and not sitting down and listening to it, track for track, multiple times all the way through. Joe: Reading all the liner notes, Richard: Exactly. Joe: Knowing Richard: Exact. Joe: Everybody who played on it every yeah, Richard: Yep, yep, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Or like I can remember. I can't remember what album it was, but I can remember buying an album, taking it home to listen to and then we like I remember my parents were like, we have we have something to go to in like 20 minutes or something. And I can remember sitting there thinking, ok do I put on listen, like the first two tracks or do I wait till I get homesick and listen to the whole thing? And I waited. You know, because there was something about that experience. And even now I find myself, you know, fast forward and, you know, I mean, it just did it. It's I find myself with some of those bad habits a little bit that I wish I didn't, necessarily...but it is what it is. Joe: Yes. Well, and two other things you touched upon that I know you. You brought it up and it's something that I deal with. But I took a position a long time ago and I started Onstage, that I actually don't hire anyone that runs tracks. And I did it purely for the fact that I didn't want any musicians being put out of work on basically my watch for lack of a better term. Richard: Oh, that's awesome. Joe: So that's just the position I took. And I don't have anything, you know, like there's a like I had a corporate gig. So when I say that, it's really like the local type stuff. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to put a single guy in a resort and put a bass player and drummer out of work because he walks in with bass and drums on tracks and back and backup vocals. And, you know, these other people are sitting home and not working. But the caveat with that is if I there's a corporate band that I hired out of Montreal, Canada, who had amazing tracks that they had built from scratch for themselves. Now, the difference between them is that every single track that they had, there was literally an instrument onstage playing it. So all it was for was for the thickness of the sound. Richard: Sure, sure. Right. Joe: There was literally not one sound on those tracks that did not exist as a human being on the stage. Richard: Right. See, and I think that you're hitting on something to me that's really important, which is intent. Like, I think that gets lost in all of this because we're so we're so caught up in the spectacle. Or the site. You know, I was just at a wedding not too long ago for for one of my nephews and it was interesting because the band, the band was they were good. This is back in Ohio where I grew up, but it was lots of tracks. And it was interesting the way, you know, I'm sitting there picking the thing apart because that's where my head goes. But the rest of my family's just enjoying the sound. You know, almost to the point where, like I've seen deejay's lately, do a thing, oh, sorry, my son's come in and Joe: Hmm Richard: Interrupt Joe: Hmm, hmm, Richard: Here Joe: Hmm, Richard: For a second. Joe: That's Richard: We have Joe: Totally Richard: To Joe: Fine. Richard: Apologize. My apologies, Joe. Joe: No, Richard: That's Joe: It's all Richard: My Joe: Good. Richard: Ex, Gray. He's gone and he's gone in for your drumming job. Joe: All right, perfect. Richard: His no, but I think I'm, you know, like deejay's lately, you see them like they'll travel with a drummer. And I actually think that's a really good thing. You know, it's, it's, it is a little bit in the other direction, because I actually I respect that decision you've made and I actually I did not realize that that's awesome. And I think, I think the world of professional musicians would be better off if more of the owners of these companies, such as yourself, took a stance like you do. But on the other hand, you come from this as a player. So you have a you know, I think some of this is, you know, that battle. You know what that's, you understand on a different level. And nothing against promoters, managers and anybody else out there but a lot of them don't. Is my as a you know, they're well-meaning, but they don't you know, they don't get it. You know. Joe: Yeah, we've talked about this a lot. You know that the success of what happened with my booking agency is the fact that I take the position and I also have the business acumen part of it. So I'm kind of a hybrid in a way where I can understand what I have to deliver to the end client and how professional all of that has to be and at the same time, I have to put my self in the position of the performers or performer, either one. And that, you know, when it's really hot outside, they need shade and if it's too hot, it's just impossible to perform outside in Arizona. And yet, because we live in Arizona and it's the desert, you know what? It gets freaking cold in the wintertime. So, and the fact that other than a singer who then has to worry about catching some sort of cold or bronchitis or something, that all the musicians use their fingers and as soon as your fingers freeze up, the performance goes downhill and everyone's upset and it just doesn't make for a good... So in our contracts, it's very in-depth about, you know, needing shade and needing heaters in the winter and then if it's too hot or too cold, that has to be moved inside. And we, had ad nauseum, I could talk about all Richard: No, Joe: This, Richard: Of course. Joe: You know, circumstances, but that's the approach that I took. Richard: But it's interesting, too, because like as you're as you're describing all of us, I keep coming to the word legacy like like like your own sort of personal legacy and all of this like, you know, and I've known you now for years. So I kind of I feel like I, I. I can say this maybe with a little bit of insight, if you like. I know you to be like you need to be able to sleep at night like you don't like it. But that's important. Like, look, I know that, you know, some of that's just because you couldn't send somebody on a gig that you yourself wouldn't feel comfortable taking, which I think is important, because, again, I think, you know, again, I deal with a lot of younger musicians, you know, a lot of teenagers, lot of 20 somethings with, you know, with the the college stuff folks that I work with, too. And, you know, you do have to kind of be aware, you know, the pay to play thing that goes on a lot. I see a lot of younger musicians that get really excited over gonna get this gig at blah blah, blah, blah plays. That's awesome! Can you buy a ticket? Because we have to sell 200 of them Joe: Yeah, Richard: To get Joe: Yeah. Richard: The opening spot. I'm thinking to myself, I know I get it. I mean, I you know, I understand there are costs and everybody needs to be able to make a living and provide for themselves and their families. And I really do understand that. But it's, there's something off putting about like, like to me, I feel like art's disposable enough, like it's treated almost like a fast food meal sometimes that, that going into that world, I don't know. I just, I just feel like, you know, one of the things I'm always telling kids is, you know. To me and this is this has always been my approach, and if I ever decide that I want to get myself out of this studio environment here where I noodle around, which I might, you know, in my midlife extended crisis of who knows what the heck's going on right now. I actually had plans and then the COVID thing kind of hit. But that's a separate conversation, I suppose. But no, but to think about, you know. We look at gigs, I think, especially younger musicians, they look at gigs in this context of, I have to get the gig for the exposure and the, quote, "fame." But I also equally need the money from the gig, and I think that that's in some ways, the problem. Everybody's got to eat, everybody needs to. I get, I understand that. But I do think that when you can eliminate either one or the other from the equation, you actually give yourself more opportunities. Joe: Yeah, it's. Richard: You know, like if you can, you know, and now I realize I'm in a very unique situation. I could take a gig or not just for the joy of the gig. And then one of the reasons why I started to think about I should really start playing out again just for my own sense of self and to noodle around with this not looping looper thing, to be perfectly honest with you in front of people, was because I realized I don't really care if I make any money doing a gig. Of course, I would love to get some cash, you know, some money in my pocket for for for performing. But at the same time, it's like you priority, you know what what matters? And I think that that's part of it, you know, especially now, you know, because there isn't you know, it's really tough. As you know, being a gigging musician is really brutal and obviously right now it's basically impossible, Joe: All right. Richard: You know, with with the situation we're in. But I do think. Like, it's funny, like I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of my, my students about the fact that I know and just a lot of people in general. There are some you know, this is horrible right now. I mean, it just it is devastating the live music industry, which is like, what, eight billion dollars annually or something at a minimum is just devastated right now. And all of the ripple effect of it is, is just it's gutting. But I do think there is also some good possibly to come out of this. The number of people I talk to, younger people that are so excited at the notion of when I can go see another show, like the appreciation for it. You know, like when you're younger and like you can go to any show you want, anytime you want, basically because you've got all your income is basically disposable and, you know, whatever else or even if it's not but you can you can seriously prioritize it. You know, you not to worry about house and car and bubble on food. And I know some kids do, I'm, I'm speaking generalities, but just in general. Joe: Yeah. Richard: When that's been removed now. It is so interesting, the number of conversations I've had with kids that are like, WOW!, I'm just so appreciative of when I'll be able to do that again. Or, or the realization that that because we would we talk about it all the time and might within my classes, like, OK, you go to that show. I don't care what show it is. That person onstage, even if it's a soloist, isn't the only person involved in you seeing that show. They just aren't. There's no circumstance where it's just them. And you start to really now understand how it all changes, you know? You know, or not changes but how, I mean, it's gone right now, you know, and they're talking about 2021 before major tours happen again, major festivals and things like that. I want to get all the pressing and down on stuff. But but Joe: Oh, Richard: I think. But I mean, it's like you don't already know this. I'm sure you. Joe: I have. I have tickets to see the Doobie Brothers and the Eagles. Yeah. And and that the Eagles, I think, was supposed to happen in April. That's been delayed, I think, until October or December and you know, there's a good chance they're all going to be moved until 2021 to just Richard: Yeah, Joe: Me. Richard: It. Joe: No one's gonna want to go to a concert and sit, you know, six feet apart from the person they went with and sit, you know, have every other row with someone, it's just it would be weird Richard: Well, and Joe: Because. Richard: Not to even some more paranoid, but like I've been reading about different things about like I guess they did a study recently about that choir that had that rehearsal before anybody realized it was a pandemic. But then like 40 out of the 60 people that were in the choir wound up getting tested. They're testing positive. Joe: Oh, wow. Richard: And they you know, I mean, it's a horrible tragedy, I think like two or three of them passed away from it and the whole circumstance was awful and they were going off of all the information they had, which at the time was nothing. And I mean, the whole thing is a terrible tragedy. But out of that, they recreated the circumstances. They obviously didn't infect people again, but they started to look at how singing and things of that nature, what it does to the transmission of a disease, you know, of a virus of this nature and then you think about people that like an event where they're shouting or screaming or singing along and all this other stuff. And you just think to yourself, you know, how is this going to look? Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know what we know? I don't know. It's it's, a it's an interesting. If it wasn't so devastating to the to people that I personally know and just to the industry that I'm aware of and the ripple effects of all of that, it would be just fascinating. But instead, it's just I mean, it's just. Joe: Yes. Richard: It is really. It just makes me really sad and I'm really grateful, like I feel weird sitting in a studio talking to you right now because I feel like almost like I'm, I'm unintentionally flexing and I don't mean to be. It's just, you know. I never thought my life musically would be in a place where I could feel musically secure more than most musicians out there in the world. That is such a bizarre moment of clarity for me. I almost feel obligated to be making more music right now. Not because anybody needs to hear it or that it'll be any good, but almost because I feel like if I don't, I'm being incredibly selfish, that I have the option to do it and I'm not Joe: Right. Richard: Taking advantage of it. Joe: A. Richard: I feel like, you know. You can believe this, but I feel like I would just do like such an ass, like if Joe: Now I get it. Richard: I feel like, I feel like I believe in karma. And I just, I just feel like I have I have an obligation, especially I'm about to head into summer, which changes up my teaching obligations and my, you know, Joe: Yes. Richard: Obligations of that nature. And running the studios are going to be very different for the foreseeable future, at least. Joe: Yes. Richard: Wrote Joe: And it's then Richard: permanent excuse Joe: It's like, no, yeah. No. And I get it. And it's in a lot of our talent is struggling. You know, that that I personally know and had, had helped to get a fair amount of work that they, you know, at times where they don't have work and they're struggling just to put food on the table and pay their car payment, keep a roof over their head. They now are sort of forced into possibly going into debt to buy a webcam and a microphone and and learn, you know, some sort of software if need be, or if they just end up going live on Zoom or Facebook or any of the streaming platforms. But, you know, they're putting in there they're Venmo and PayPal handles as a virtual tip jar just to try to make any sort of money. Richard: Yeah, anything is Joe: And Richard: Anything. Joe: Yeah, Richard: Mm Joe: And Richard: Hmm. Joe: It's it's really tough. So, yeah, I keep brainstorming on ways to try to figure out a way to help. And I haven't come up with it yet. I but I'm working on it. It's not like I'm sitting here, I'm not you know, I'm lucky enough that I had a business where because at one point I was the seven day week musician, you know, I was playing, you remember, and Richard: I do. Joe: That's all I Richard: I Joe: Did Richard: Do. Yeah. Joe: Before. Richard: Yeah. You were impossible to get a hold of because it would always be like a message back, like dude I'll call you later, I'm on, I'm like, you know, 17 gigs today. Joe: Yeah, right. Yeah. But so I get it. Again, we go back to. I've I've lived it and I understand where it's all coming from. Now I just have to figure a way to help and so that's a struggle for me. But that's that's a whole like you said, it's a whole different conversation. And the one last piece that you touched upon that I don't want to forget is that in the conversation I had with Nate Morton, the drummer from The Voice, there's a connector in L.A. that you may or may not have heard of that that I knew when I wanted to, you know, possibly get a tour. A guy named Barry Squire and Barry is basically the music matchmaker out there. So if Cher is looking for a band, Barry will put out the notice that Cher is about to go on tour and they need this, this and this. Same thing with Pink or any of those, Barry was the guy to basically piece these bands together in L.A. for these big tours. Richard: Interesting, Joe: And Richard: I did. Joe: And so now the listing and Barry puts these listings up now on, on Facebook and it's obviously become a lot easier as part of the discussion I had with Nate, where it used to be, hey, you go to this executive's office and you pick up a C.D. or tape, you learn these three songs on it, you come to this studio/soundstage on the Saturday at 1:00, you play the songs and we'll let you know kind of thing. Now, Barry posts these things on Facebook and its he post the requirements. And, you know, everyone has to be pretty much for the most part, 25 or younger, you know, there's there's no none of these things that are going to take all these old dudes like us out on tour. Richard: Right. Joe: Her Richard: Right Joe: Or me Richard: Now, of course. Joe: Anyhow. Richard: No, no, no, no, no, I'm right there with you. I'm Joe: But Richard: With you. Joe: But the instead of it being the old style that you and I are used to, which is, you know, bass, drums, maybe two guitars, keys and a couple of back, backup singers or maybe a horn section. Now it's guitar, drums and a multi instrumentalist that knows Ableton. So it's, it's that and Barry and Nate were talking, they went to lunch a few weeks ago. They'll always be a drummer because the visual part of it, of of that makes it look like it's a band. So that that one seat, you know, thankfully, has not been necessary, eliminated as much as the others. But it's just so weird and Nate and I were talking was like, I mean, I know I, I don't know Ableton anywhere near that I could say I could do it to go get a gig and neither does Nate. But that's the state of things right now. And then, and then Nate's talking and he's like, and if the band becomes, you know, popular and there's more money in the budget, they don't turn around and then start adding bass and guitar and keys that they add more production, they add dancers, they are they whatever. It's just it's so weird to me. Richard: Well, yes, the idea of a show, it's different, you know. That's why, that's why it still comes back to me of this idea of playing. And I think that, I don't know, Like like, do you still sit down to play just for the joy of playing? Joe: I, I do here and there, but nowhere near as much as I should. Richard: Well, nobody ever does that as much as they should. Joe: Yeah. And it's like we Richard: But. Joe: Played a gig last Wednesday and we played out in the parking lot at an assisted living complex for Richard: Oh, Joe: The Richard: Cool. Joe: For the residents because these elderly people had not been out of this place for the last two months or whatever. Richard: Oh, Joe: They're Richard: My Joe: Just Richard: Gosh. Joe: Going stir crazy. Richard: Sure, Joe: So Richard: Sure. Joe: There was four different jazz combos and we were setup out in the parking lot where the people could come out on their balconies and Richard: Oh, Joe: We played to Richard: How Joe: Them. Richard: Cool. Joe: Yeah, it was fun and it was cool. And at the end, like all the guys in the band are like, God, I so misplaying, like I just the hell with practicing, I just want to play because there's that interaction on stage and anticipating where that that other player is going to next and just being able to interact and lock in with somebody. And because I left the gig going I really got to practice. And everybody's like, no, we're just gotta play, we just it's more fun just playing. So, Richard: Yeah, yeah, Joe: Yeah. Richard: And that's I think that I think there's something about that visceral live element. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: We it's funny when, when when, when the COVID shut down happened, it sort of sent obviously a lot of chaos into the whole educational system, especially into arts education, which regardless of titles and everything else, I am basically running an arts program. You know, call it what you want, but it's an arts program. And it's been it was interesting what wound up happening very much and that's why I truly thought I'm going to get all these kids that are just going to send me you know, here's this recording I worked on at home, here's this work and I've got a lot of those. I mean, that's. And it's great. But the lot of them, first of all, a lot of them, you know, you started to really see the demographic of the students and who had what available to them. Joe: Yeah, Richard: Lots of posturing and Joe: Yeah. Richard: In high school certainly about that and that's fine. But I don't begrudge because any we've distributed gear as much as possible in that. But it was, you know, was interesting how a lot of them really enjoyed the live streams we did more than anything else. So we wound up doing our big annual end of year concert anyway. But we did it online on Zoom. It was clunky we were subjected to all kinds of elements related to streaming and what mics they had and Wi-Fi connectivity and everything else and yet in the moment, the fact that it wasn't taped, that we, you know, like Joe: Yeah. Richard: I had some kids that played some sessions, that we just kind of watch the sessions on the screen, which was still cool and it was really awesome. I had one group that actually did go in and they pre-recorded their parts and filmed themselves while they did it and then we spliced it together into kind of like a live video and and whatnot. But most of it was a kid with their guitar, at the piano or whatever it happened to be singing. You know, in some cases it was just through their phone and imperfect, absolutely! But, it it had that kind of because you knew it was right then. And there wasn't a well, we're going to go back and fix it in post kind of option. It was interesting that, that, you know, you still got a little bit of that same charge. I mean, it was different because obviously you don't get the you know, you don't hear the applause in the same Joe: Yeah, Richard: Way that you're hopefully Joe: Yeah. Richard: Getting you know, there wasn't really production in terms of lights and stuff that we normally would do. But, you know, because I asked a lot of them, you know, should we be prerecording this and some of them are like, yeah, that would be better for me. But that was because of nervousness that they always have had inherently. You know, these are kids that don't like to get up on stage, even though they're wonderfully talented. They just may be, you know, at that age, they're, they're they get freaked out by it or whatever. But the vast majority wanted it live and in the moment, warts and all. And I found that to be very fascinating. Joe: Yeah, Richard: And Joe: That's cool. Richard: We wound up, you know. We did a tie. I think we did. I think we did like seven or eight live broadcast. We're still doing them. We've done a bunch of podcasts, but it's been interesting watching the students. Their response, and maybe it's not an entirely, like I'd like, I don't think that I can, I always look at my own students and I go, I probably shouldn't be lumping you in with every other teenager is like a generality because they tend to be a little bit of a unique and and if we're being honest, I probably do have a bit of an influence on their approach Joe: Right. Richard: In that regard. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Hopefully a good way. But I do think it's interesting, like what you're saying, that there's something about a live response, even if it's remote, even if it's from streaming, it still beats the just watching video. Joe: Yeah, Richard: There's something. And organic and visceral about it. Joe: Yep. Richard: Which is Joe: All Richard: Important. Joe: Right, well, you know, since we are now, you know, sort of talking about the graduation piece, I wanted to...so I always refer to it as CMAS and I think that's probably what most of you do. But it's Creative Musical Arts and Science program, correct? OK,  So this is happening at Arcadia High School here in, are we, this is considered Phoenix. You're right down the street from me, right? So it's Phoenix. Richard: Yes, well, I'm yeah. Joe: The border is. I don't know. Richard: Yeah, it's Scottsdale Unified School District, but it's technically in greater Phoenix we're like I want to say, what's 48 Street and Indian School and what is it? 56th is the line into Scottsdale. Joe: Ok. Richard: I don't actually know. I mean, I've been at that school for, gosh, 20 plus years, if you can believe that...long time. Joe: Yeah. Richard: I don't know. I was long before my time how they managed to carve out that section of, you know why it's Scottsdale and not in Phoenix Union, I don't know. Joe: All right. OK. So you just mentioned 20 some years ago, so when did you get to this school? Richard: Ok, so let me see. How do I explain this? 1990 or something so I'm at the U Of A Joe: Ok. Richard: I have finished my second master's degree in orchestral conducting, which I still miss, I, you know, if only for not having enough time in the day. Basically, I start working in Tucson at one of the high schools and a middle school, I've got an orchestra program that I love. I am always still for years and years and when I did it, I grew up in the Midwest. So as an undergrad and as a grad student and at different times and in different places, I was always gigging as a very mediocre drummer. I like to say I was, I was sort of the, the, would you want to call it? I brought the game down for everybody else, But um..but, you know, and so I done some touring, nothing, nothing fancy. So but I had done a lot of it, I loved the studio experience and also their stuff. But there was no at the time at least available to me, you only were really able to do that kind of independently and on your own. And there was very much this sense of, you know, we were we were talking before about two different music industries well, there were sort of like two different musical experiences. You had the experience you could have as a student. I mean, you know, you know, it was one thing and there were in it, it was great. I mean, don't get me wrong, I have such fond memories of growing up. And I still every now and then I am lucky enough, I guess. I've talked to my old high school band director a few times, he's long since retired. He drives trains now, of all things Joe: Wow. Richard: Which he just loves. Old, old military, retired guy, sweetheart of a guy, brilliant musician, far more, I didn't realize his musical chops. This is another problem I have like I hadn't like it takes me a while to realize something in the moment. Oh my gosh. The level of lost opportunity on my count two, like not tap into more of his experience as he came out of a military band experience but he had this incredibly open view of what music was for, even if he had a particular love of a certain style and what not. But I'm I've Joe: Wait, Richard: Got this. Joe: Before before you leave, that point is just amazing that you just said that because I look at you and go, God, if I only had a band teacher in high school like you. My teacher, and God rest his soul, I think I'm sure he's gone by now but I was just there doing it, collecting the paycheck, Richard: Sure, Joe: Going through the Richard: Sure. Joe: Motions. Just it was just the worst. And. Richard: And it can't. Yeah, I mean, I. I don't know, I can't speak to that. I mean, the educator in me says, you know, at a certain point you can it's very easy to get disenchanted if you get wrapped up in it and you never know. I mean, you know, the further back you go. People that I get asked all the time, you know, did you have something like CMAS when you were in high school or whatever? And I can't tell if they're sometimes I wonder if they're being sarcastic, if they've completely misjudged my age, if, you know, I don't even know where it's coming from. But, but the truth of the matter is, is that it's not a matter of if I did or not, it wasn't even an option. It just literally wasn't a possibility. I can't, I can't fault Pete Metzker was his name, is his name or Jeff Bieler or Bob Wagner. I literally remember all of these people...West Frickey. They were brilliant! They didn't, if they, if you would come to them and said, we have this idea and you described what I built with the CMAS Program, what I designed, honestly, I think they would have been like, OK, that's really cool! We can't, like we, if we could figure out how to do that in the architecture or the in, the in, the the infrastructure, if you will, of music education at the time, I really think they probably would have been like, OK, sure! Let's do it! I don't think it was an option. I mean, I really think that, you know, there's a prospective element. I'm not that old but it does remind me a little bit of what I have conversations with students about classical music, for example. And I always tell them the same thing. Richard: You know, you can't, you can't fault Beethoven or Mozart and say you don't like their music because there's no electric guitar. Because there wasn't even electricity at the time. You can't you know, you're missing the whole point. You don't think, like that can't be your thing. In the same way when I have students who are very, very much of a more and this is fine too, but we'll say a more traditional mindset. I'm like, you can't look at a kid who wants to do like turntables and say that's not a legitimate musical instrument. You do it, for the same exact reason because you've got to deal with intent, you just you just have to. And that's the thing that like I said, I look back on those that band director and those teachers, all of them throughout all of my school years, as it were. And Dave Vroman, I mean, I could list all these professors throughout, you know, college that some of which I'm still friends with, which is really wonderful too, you know. Sorry, I, I have to I have to namedrop Molly Slaughter, I don't have anyone to know who she is but just for me, I got to say it karma again, and there's lots of others. Greg Sanders, Steve Heineman I'm gonna shut up now, okay...Ed Kaiser God, we would be here for a long time, but, but all of them would tell you...but, but the thing of his you is the best musicians are about intention. You know, Springsteen walks up onstage with the E Street Band and it's unbelievable and then the band takes a break for a minute and he sits down with just as acoustic guitar and it's unbelievable. Joe: Yeah. Richard: And it's I mean, look, the guy's a genius. And I mean, that's you know, you don't need me to say that. But I think the reason it works in both settings is because of his musical intentions. Joe: Yeah. Richard: It comes out different, of course, it comes out differently when you have more people and you can interact. And again, we go back to that visceral thing, but it's about intent. And I think that's what I've carried with me from all of those people. Joe: Right. Richard: I go on in any case, so I go, I go to Bradley University and become their first music educator, excuse music composition and theory graduate ever out of that university. I don't, I don't know if that's like I have two distinctions being a Bradley, one is I'm the first person ever to receive that degree from that institution, which I'm very proud of and two, I was probably the most arrogant pain in the butt student that's ever been through there in the history of that university's music school. And it was a brilliant place, it was wonderful. They had an old Moog synthesizer, that had been installed by Robert Moog himself. Joe: Oh. Richard: But it unfortunately didn't work. If I could go back now...know, you, you know, you always say if you know, if I knew then what I know now. But they allowed you know, they bought some equipment. We had, you know, an old Mac computer and we were able to do some sequencing and learn some bit. And I just kind of got bit by the bug of it. I just found it so compelling and so interesting. Didn't know what I was doing, had a couple of microphones, couldn't even tell you what they were. Probably a 58, like a beat up condenser, by whom...You know, I want to say there was a, I don't know, I want to say it was like an old Rode or an AKG or something, but it was I mean, we you know, we didn't know what we were doing. But freedom to explore the process. I mean, again, in hindsight, I see all of us greatest gift possible. Graduate, don't know what I'm going to do. So the Youngstown's, I don't know if I'm gone too far back Joe: No, Richard: Or Joe: No, Richard: Not in the story. Joe: No, no, no. Richard: So I'm going to I go to university, so Youngstown State University. Partially out of desperation, partially out of you know, I didn't, I was wandering in sort of like the the desert of my own immaturity and unawareness, you know? I just, I just I had this thought in my head that I was gonna be the next Leonard Bernstein. Not realizing that basically even the next Leonard Bernstein wasn't going to be the next Leonard Bernstein because that world doesn't exist. And it wasn't like people were telling me that but it doesn't, I mean, it just doesn't exist. And and I didn't, I wasn't that guy. I mean, that's, you know, kind of like what you were talking about before, which I disagree with your assessment of your skill set but we can have that conversation off of air sometime. But no, but, but in all seriousness, I mean, you know but I wasn't that guy. I mean, that's just that's a reality, I wasn't that guy. But while I'm in Youngstown, Stephen Gage, who's another one of these sort of like ah ha moment people. I'd done a lit..I'd done some conducting. I even put together for my senior recital at Bradley, I put together my own sort of like mini orchestra of friends just for the heck of it. And I seem to remember Vroman, Dave Vroman, who was head of the music department, and that can be one of the main conductors there, I seem to remember him saying, you know, we could have like. Richard: To help you out with this, like you didn't have to, like, do it covertly here. He's a guy I really did not appreciate nearly as much as I should have at the time, brilliant man, just brilliant, wonderful guy. But anyway, he, um, so but so Steve Gage basically goes, you know, I need a, I, I've got an opportunity for graduate student. And he was the band conductor is like, but you'll also work a little bit with the orchestras as well. And you'll get to do you know, you'll get to conduct and I'll teach you how to and he was my first real conducting teacher that I took seriously. I had taken cond

"Each person has their own weakness". But this shouldn't stop you from doing the things you really want to do in life. It shouldn't prevent you from reaching your goals in life & attaining your absolute happiness. No matter what the circumstance is, DON'T GIVE UP, DON'T STOP. Show Highlights 7:20 (Ari) - What was it like growing up with asthma? 7:24 (Richard) - I grew up before they had good medicines and it was difficult. I spent a lot of time in hospitals just not being able to breathe and as this is a kid, right? So you're sort of not really all that consciously aware that. 9:29 (Ari) - You said before I just want to touch upon a few of the points you made, You said before you spent time in oxygen tents, can you describe what it was like living in an oxygen tent? 9:39 (Richard) - It was I mean you could open it up and and you could talk to people but that's people who are visiting you like your parents, but you couldn't do it for all you really need to spend most of your time in there. 10:10 (Ari) - Confined, almost like a prison, huh 10:13 (Richard) - It is yeah, you're not able to go anywhere. So I had a lot of time to read books and I would find out about the world through books and that gave me a strong desire to see the world. 10:41 (Ari) - You described to me previously that you spent much of your childhood as a sickly child quote-unquote. How did that shape your childhood experience and your view on life back then 10: 51 - (Richard) -That time I spent a lot of time reading and dreaming of going out and doing things and seeing things 11:18 - (Ari) - And then before you were saying that your entire life changed when you turn 12 or so and the better medicines became available. What was that like having your entire world changed based on just a medicine? 11:29 (Richard) - That was fantastic. It allowed me to do things I couldn't do before it was truly fantastic. 11:38 (Ari) - Was it entire like the entire aspect of your life changed or was it just some parts? 11: 43 (Richard) - I was pretty young so I would probably say most parts. It's a long time ago. But yeah suddenly I was able to do of a whole bunch of outdoor stuff that I could never think of doing for as long as I had this inhaler with me. 12:20 (Ari) - You mentioned just before that one of your friends from asthma Camp had died. What did that do to you? 12:29 (Richard) - That was this big reminder of mortality that this could happen to me too. And there was no predicting it there is nothing that could be done about it. 13:49 (Ari) - Honestly, I feel like everybody could benefit from a viewpoint like that. You know anytime you take the time to contemplate, hey, we're not here forever. Where have I been? And where am I going? 14:30 (Richard) - If this is my last day is it have I done what I want to do? If not then should I be doing something different in case soon is my last day, right? 14:55 (Richard) - Being focused on doing what you want to do and getting your goals achieved us. That's a great result of something like this. 15:05 (Ari) - You describe before not being able to breathe and in our communications previously you had mentioned that not being able to breathe really twists a person twist their focus and just creates almost a culture of constant fear to some degree. So, can you describe a little bit more about how not being able to breathe necessarily twists a person in the way that they act? 15:31- (Richard) - It's more important than anything else and you don't think of it that way because you always think you can breathe until you can't. 16:41- (Ari) - I mean, we were mentioning that before, it happens to be a quote from Ethics of the Fathers as well. It says, "Live each day as if it's your last". 16:54- (Ari) - How did you get into sailing? 16:57- (Richard) -Shortly after I got the better asthma medicines and began to be able to do a lot more outside. 18:50 - (Richard) - I think I sailed 6,000 miles in total doing that. 19:20 - (Richard) - When you're sailing you have to plan ahead. 19:56 - (Ari) - I was reading through some of your materials and I saw you've done some long-distance solo sailing. It's the same idea, right? 20:03 - (Richard) - Yeah. It's an awful lot of planning for long-distance sailing, you're entirely self-contained. You've got to have all your food. You've got to have your tools to repair material stuff breaks all the time. 21:14 - (Ari) -What are the sailboats that you currently own? 21:16 - (Richard) - I have a 50 foot schooner that I have sailed around the Americas in Saigon from the Arctic to the Antarctic. 21:58 - (Richard) - I've been stuck in Harbor for many weeks because there was too much ice to chop through to get out and being in a boat and not being able to sail it, I find it a frustrating experience. 31:16 - (Ari) - I think people don't realize that in a sailboat, you're not moving at 60 miles an hour like you are in a car. What's your max speed over there? 31:24 - (Richard) - Under motor, it's five knots under sail, it's eight, but you can't be can't go against the wind right to go against the wind you have to zigzag back and forth and in front of it 32:30 - (Ari) - Let's move on to Kayaking. How many miles do you have in sailing? 32:38- (Richard) - About 80,000. 33:50 - (Ari) - I'm looking at maps and these are huge, it's like a really big lake that almost rivals the Great Lakes.. 34:00 - (Richard) - It's really big. I always get confused because the spaces on the maps the projection makes things look a little distorted up North but it is a very big lake. 34:29 - (Ari) - So which trip was it that your event happened on? Is that the Yukon? 35:15 - (Richard) - My fourth trip was my longest one. And that was to paddle as far as Dawson City. 34:48 - (Richard) - I think that took three months and it was a great trip. I was delayed due to weather and also the weather gets harder later in the season and more towards the coast. 36:57 - (Richard) - It seemed overly dangerous to think about going straight across it seemed like the right way to do that was to go along the coast in a kayak. 40:41 - (Ari) - What's a floater coat? 40:44 - (Richard) - It's a Hypothermia survival coat. 42:30 - (Richard) - I had I still miss capable of starting a fire but my trouble was that I kept passing out from the hypothermia, and there's 15 knots of wind running. 43:05 - (Richard) - I try putting the match my teeth and dragging the striker across but the wind blows it out. I have these little bit gliders and you're supposed to light it with your thumb. 48:45 - (Richard) - It took a couple months to learn to walk again, but I wish to come out of it whole. I lost the boat. 48:53 - (Ari) - You had to relearn to walk again because of the frostbite or because of the muscle coordination from the hypothermia? 50:55 - (Richard) - I was actually using a lot of anger because I was really annoyed at myself for having gotten myself into this situation because I had screwed up. I mean I had been inattentive. 55:30 - (Ari) - One actionable thing for somebody to implement right now to help lead them on the path to Greatness the continued path to success. Do you have any little bits of advice that you might leave our listeners with? 55:46 - (Richard) -Don't stop. Don't give up. Originally recorded 3/8/2019 Special Guest: Richard Hudson.

GUEST BIO: Richard Warburton is the co-founder of Opsian.com and maintainer of the Artio FIX Engine.  He’s worked as a developer in different areas including Developer Tools, HFT and Network Protocols. Richard wrote the book “Java 8 Lambdas” for O’Reilly and is also an experienced conference speaker, having spoken at dozens of events and sat on conference committees for some of the biggest conferences in Europe and the USA.   EPISODE DESCRIPTION: Phil’s guest on today’s show is Richard Warburton. He is best known for his book “Java 8 Lambdas”, which was published by O’Reilly Media. Over the years, he has also spoken and numerous big tech conferences and sat on several conference committees. He is the co-founder of Opsian.com and maintainer of the Artio FIX Engine. His mainly freelance career has led to him working with numerous companies, in various roles. Richard has worked on HFT, Developer Tools and Network Protocols. KEY TAKEAWAYS: (1.03) – So Richard, can you expand on that brief introduction and tell us a little bit more about yourself? Richard starts by explaining that unlike most IT professionals he has always worked for himself or as a contractor. He enjoys the fact that working this way gives him more control over what he does and usually the direction of the projects he works on. For example, it has enabled him to run a company called Opsian with a friend. Their company helps people to understand and solve their performance problems by showing them what their software is actually doing. At the same time, he continues to work on various consulting engagements. Right now, a lot of his work is related to financial trading systems. (2.45) – Phil asks Richard what drew him to that particular area. Richard said that he had always been interested in working in sectors where he could push the technology envelope. That is certainly necessary for the financial trading sector. (3.48) – Can you please share a unique career tip with the I.T. career audience? Richard’s advice is to always try to work with people who you can learn from. He has always tried to do that and has been lucky enough to work with and learn a lot from people like Martin Thompson, Martin Burgberg and Kirk Pepperdine. If you can’t work with great people you can learn from in your day job, just do it in the open source community instead. There are plenty of opportunities there. Richard has worked on a bunch of open source projects, which have really helped his career. Collaborating with others improves your habits, develops your philosophy and enables you to pick up new ways of working. You really grow as a professional when you work collaboratively. Phil agrees surrounding yourself with people who offer something different from you can be leveraged to move your career forward. (6.07) – Can you tell us about your worst career moment? And what you learned from that experience. For Richard, that happened on the first day he started working for j.clarity. He wrote a piece of code, which looked fine and worked. But, when the CTO pulled it down and ran it on his laptop he got the blue screen of death, or at least the Mac OS equivalent. Not the first impression Richard had wanted to make. Fortunately, his CTO was very understanding about the situation. It was laughed off, solved and soon forgotten. That incident taught Richard how important it is to be working with supportive colleagues when things go wrong. They make sure that you are not overwhelmed by the problem, help you to resolve it, learn from it and move on to the next challenge. It also reminded him to bear in mind that code that works in one environment can easily fail in another one. You have to fully consider the other environments it may be run in before releasing it. Try to think about what can go wrong. Doing this enables you to produce a more robust piece of code. (10.56) – What was your best career moment? For Richard, getting his book published was definitely a highlight. Writing a book is a long-term project especially when you do it while working full-time as he did. At points, you lose sight of the light at the end of the tunnel. So, when you finally get it done it feels fantastic. (12.20) – Do people contact you a lot about your book? Richard says that when it was first published he did receive a fair amount of feedback both positive and negative. It always felt good when he heard from someone who had been able to use what they learned to solve a problem. (13.25) – Can you tell us what excites you about the future of the IT industry and careers? The fact that there are so many opportunities in the IT sector is something Richard enjoys. Someone once said “software is eating the world”, and they were right. In one way it is a scary time to be living in. But, if you are working in the IT industry, it is also an amazing time to live through. Things change fast, often without us realizing it. For example, recently he visited Vienna with his family. Just 10 years ago, a trip like that would have had to have been planned in detail, well in advance. You would have needed a guide book, reservations and a stack of maps. Today, all you need is your Smartphone. Plus, GPS means you can’t really get lost. The fact that everything you do in IT potentially has a huge impact on people’s lives is part of the reason it is so interesting. (15.36) – What drew you to a career in IT? Since Richard was a kid, he has been interested in the way things work. His theory is that a lot of people who are working in software development played with Lego bricks as kids. Richard was attracted to the fact that coding allows you to create things while tinkering around, playing and experimenting. Of course, this is true of other fields too, for example, engineering. But, computers had always fascinated him. Partly because what you can do with them is so varied, almost unlimited. So, that is the career path he followed. (17.00) – What is the best career advice you have ever received? Richard says for him it was not advice, as such, that helped him the most. He found that encouragement was what moved him forward. For example, a guy called Ben Evans encouraged him to speak at software conferences. Public speaking has played a big role in moving his career forward. For a long time, he regularly ran training to help people to code better using Java. He was heavily involved in meetups and workshops. Doing all of this has really helped to open doors for him. But, to do it, he needed a bit of encouragement. (18.45) – If you were to begin your IT career again, right now, what would you do? Right now, artificial intelligence is hot, so he would probably get involved with that. It is certainly an interesting and challenging field. (19.41) – What are you currently focusing on in your career? Right now, it is a business objective that Richard is focusing on. He wants to really grow his company and hire more people. So, he is currently honing some of the skills he already has and learning new ones. Including marketing skills, so he can better engage with the market place and share and explain what Opsian.com has to offer. (21.22) – What is the number one non-technical skill that has helped you the most in your IT career? Richard says public speaking has proved to be a very useful non-technical skill. It has put him in contact with a lot of people and helped him when he wanted to write, publish and market his book. (21.55) – Phil asks Richard to share a final piece of career advice with the audience. Richard’s advice is to practice your writing skills. Written communication is still very important. You can’t achieve much on your own. So, you need to be able to communicate effectively. Written communication is still the main way we share complex information, so you need to be good at it. BEST MOMENTS: (3.32) RICHARD– "I've always been really keen on trying to find areas where you do get to push the envelope, technology wise" (3.52) RICHARD– "Try and work with people who you can learn things from.” (13.59) RICHARD– "It’s a scary time to be living through. But it's an amazing time to be living through if you're working in the IT industry." (15.58) RICHARD– “I have a big theory that a lot of people who are working in software played with Lego bricks when they were a kid." (23.01) RICHARD– "In order to achieve things with other people, you always need to be able to communicate with them. Written communication is such an underrated part of that skill” CONTACT RICHARD: Twitter: https://twitter.com/RichardWarburto LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-warburton-5b03613/ Website: https://www.opsian.com/  

Clearing money blocks update with Richard ButlerRichard Butler has more money. How does he do it? Watch my EFT coaching session with Richard. A quote from Richard "It is truly amazing how relaxed I am about money." Contact Richard: https://RichardButlerTheSuccessCoach.com https://www.udemy.com/user/richardbut... EFT to remove mental blocks to success: https://www.udemy.com/remove-your-men... YouTube embed code: https://youtu.be/-uHT8LYKIXU Contact Joan for your coaching session. Facebook: Joan Kaylor, MSED, LPC, DCEP Twitter: @JoanKaylor Linked In: Joan Kaylor www.TappingWithJoan.com Joan@joankaylor.com

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: OK, Richard!Richard: Hi, Todd. Good to see you.Todd: Good to see you.Richard: Long time no sees.Todd: Yeah, it's been awhile.Richard: It's been awhile.Todd: Richard, you helped me out when I first started the website.Richard: My pleasure.Todd: Yeah, you're very kind and you talked about your dog!Richard: Lucky! Here he is! This is Lucky's picture.Todd: Wow! That's big. So tell us about Lucky. How's lucky been the last two years?Richard: Lucky, the last two year! Yeah! Lucky is almost two years old. His birthday is November the 11th! One-One-One-One, so he'll be 2 years old. He's doing well. He's developed some unique, sort of characteristics, personality traits. One is that late at night he doesn't like walking just with me, it has to be with me and my wife together. So he has two big bodyguards. It's true. It's an unusual thing but he will not walk by the river where it's very dark with just one person. He needs two people to walk him. Which is unusual for a dog. He's a golden retriever so he's a big dog, but he's just, he needs two people and he gets very lonely, you know he likes to follow people around the house the whole time, you know he's a really, he's a very sort of sociable dog.Todd: What a lovely dog?Richard: Yes, lovely dog!Todd: I want to meet him!Richard: Yeah, well, anytime!Todd: So, I think you were saying something earlier about how he gets cold.Richard: Yeah, that's the other thing. One of the other unique things about Lucky is that I think he's a bit spoiled. I mean, you know, a lot of dogs live outdoors but this dog lives indoors, and you know the kotatsu, in the winter my obaachan, my wife's mother has the kotatsu.Todd: Yeah, like the kotatsu is like a big blanket.Richard: Ah, yeah, like a little low table.Todd: Oh, the kotatsu, oh, yeah, yeah, sorryRichard: An electric heater underneath itTodd: Yeah, that's right, sorry!Richard: And cat in Japan, cats are famous for going under the kotatsu in winter but my dog goes under the Kotatsu, so and he's quite big right, so you just see his legs poking out of the kotatsu. I mean that's a very unusual behavior for a golden retriever. Yeah, yeah, he's and unusual dog.Todd: So how much does he eat?Richard: I see, what about my son. I want to talk about my son.Todd: Well, no but like, first I'm just curious, how much does you dog eat?Richard: How much does he eat? Well, it's three times a day.Todd: Yeah, I mean, how much does it cost?Richard: Oh, the cost!Todd: Yeah, to feed a dog in Japan!Richard: Well, that's a good, that's a tough question. I buy a big bag of food. It costs me 18,000 yen and that lasts about three months, so about 6,000 yen.Todd: Man, that is expensive! So you're dog, that's at least 6,000 yen a month on food.Richard: And then Vet's bills are pretty high.Todd: Wow! But he's worth it! It seems like you love your dog.Richard: I love my dog. I carry his picture everywhere.Todd: That's my favorite dog too! Golden Retrievers. They're so kind.Richard: I also love my son! Can I talk about my son!Todd: OK, we'll do your son in the next interview.

Today I would like to share some really great and unique takeaways from  a conversation I had with the one and only Richard Dennis, the father of the Turtle Project from back in the 1980’s as well as two of his turtles, namely Brian Proctor and Jerry Parker.  In our conversation we put the record straight for the first time on a number of myths about the Turtle experiment including How the Turtles got their name, and if the original rules that were applied with great success 30+ years ago would still be relevant today, and also how long it took Jerry and Brian to make sense of them.  So let’s get straight to it, starting off with the very beginning of The Turtle story.  If you want to catch the full episode then just go  click here How The Turtle Got It's Name Niels: Now there has, over the last three decades, been so much talk about how this trading experiment was named: what the inspiration for the Turtle name really was. Some people say that it was related to you seeing a turtle farm in Singapore I think I heard, and another story I heard was it was related to a rock band called The Turtles that performed back then. Why don't you put us all out of suspense and share with us the true story about how the name came about.  "...you're going to get a "Heavens NO!" on that one" Richard:  I'm going to stick with the first story about the turtles in Singapore. That actually, that's how they got the name, it was kind of a misnomer but it sort of stuck. If I had a dollar for every plastic turtle that people have given me, I'd be indeed rich.  Niels: But also, talking about the name itself, and I wonder whether seeing the turtles in Singapore or something that happened years before you did the program, but I also wanted to talk about the inspiration for the idea behind creating the Turtle Program. Again, we hear so many stories relating to, one that seems to be very popular is that you and your partner back then, Bill Eckhardt, having seen the movie Trading Places with Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy, where there was a bet made about how you could train anyone to be successful in trading.  Richard:  That you're going to get a "Heavens NO!" on that one.  Niels: Oh well good! Excellent, excellent! Well, can you share with us how the whole idea behind the Turtle Program came about?   Richard:  Sure, so one lazy Sunday afternoon I was hanging out with Johnny Walker Black, and I started to think about my own trading and realized that a lot of it was just sort of rules that were informal and that I noticed that other traders operated according to rules. Also, some of those rules were very bad, like a lot of traders at that time, their one rule was always buy soy beans.    Having thought about my trading and the rules, it seemed to me that, at that time, just to put a number on it, I thought that two-thirds of trading was following rules and maybe one-third was intuition - the dreaded flare that we talked about during the course and that. So, as the ice cubes melted, I started to make some notes about what I thought was true; what you could do to prove it. It could turn out to be one of those endless debates that never comes to any conclusion. It seemed to me that we could resolve the question by trying to train people and giving them rules and talking to them about intuition and things like that, and that was the genesis. And nobody told me it was a great idea, but nobody wanted to tell me it was stupid either, so we did it Niels: Sure, sure.  How long before the actual program started? Was this something that you reacted on very quickly and said, "Yeah, this is a great idea, let me do it." Or did it have to sink in for a while before you created the program?  Richard:  It was only a couple of months before we put the things in motion, like advertisements in newspapers, that lead to starting in January of '84. So, not such a long period of time after I thought of it.  Niels: Fantastic!

Land Academy Member Richard Alberty Interview (CFFL 407) Recording Location: LAT (i.e.  33.838781)  (LONG i.e.  -118.391261) Jack Butala:                       Jack and Jill. How are you? Jill DeWit:                           Hello. Richard:                              I'm doing good. How are you guys doing? Jack Butala:                       Excellent. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Richard:                              It's my pleasure. Jack Butala:                       Thank you for being flexible because I think we must have scheduled something incorrectly on our end. I guess that's what you can do when you have your own business, right? Richard:                              Well, when you have your own business, you sit in front of the computer and work. The best part is you can work from anywhere in the world, so you can't complain. Jill DeWit:                           Exactly. Exactly, so thank you again for being here. If you would, first, share with us and all of our listeners a little bit about your background and where you come from. Richard:                              Well, I grew up in New York, moved to Miami many, many years ago. I was in the insurance business, an employee benefits consulting business. I got involved indirectly with a friend who had a son, who was getting into real estate, and I had another friend who was selling some properties. I just asked my friend, "Hey, you mind if I make a couple dollars on this?" He goes, "No. If you can sell it, I'll pay you." Then I got my real estate license and all then I bought a piece of property for 40, sold it for 80. I said, "Well, this is pretty easy." Then I bought another parcel for 40 and sold it to 80 to another guy. Before I know it, I got into a satellite system and started looking for properties, vacant land. I found a nice parcels or multiple parcels in the east coast of Florida. I'm sorry, in the west coast of Florida. I started flipping those properties in 2004-5-6-7, buying them for seven grand, selling for 12 grand. Then I went to the county, got a database. You know how the nightmare that could be and the database they give you at the hodgepodge. Jill DeWit:                           Totally. Richard:                              Then you want to break everything down. You want to keep the first letter capital, and then breakdown the others into lowercase. That's another learning curve, but that's how I started. It's been about, wow, 10-11 years now. Jill DeWit:                           Awesome. Jack Butala:                       Yeah. Jill DeWit:                           What brought you to us? It sounds like you had a good going. Richard:                              It was good. In 2007-8-9, we were selling properties in South Carolina. Probably sold about 140-150 properties then and then everything, as you know, slowed down and it wasn't easy. I started thinking about, "What am I going to do? Is the party over?" I realized I missed the boat. It was probably the best time to be involved in the business. I thought to stay in ... Let me look what I used to do and get back into the real estate. Finding like-minded people in this land niche is almost impossible. Jack Butala:                       Yeah, I agree. Richard:                              I was one of your original five callers about 18 months ago. Jack Butala:                       Yup. I remember. Richard:                              Five listeners. I think I was number four. I was glad I found you and I listen to you every day. Just being around like-minded people and getting ideas, and getting motivated, and realizing it's a perfect business. It's inventory, you're pushing paper. You don't have to carry inventory. You don't have to buy from a manufacturer or sell to somebody on terms and wait. If you were buying and selling copy paper, you keep it for a certain price,

In this second podcast, Mr. Wendell continues where he left off last time. He explains the skills you’ll need in order to be an effective Chief Data Officer and we learn more about MIT’s International Society of Chief Data Officers. Transcript Skills a CDO Need: Information Technology, Mathematics, Change Management Inside Out Security: You've given many examples how the CDO has a relationship with a CIO, the CMO, the CEO, and so you need a whole bunch of different skillsets. What are some skills you need in order to be an effective CDO? Richard: Yeah, there are really three category of skills. The first category is what I'll call an IT skillset, traditionally. The second is more of a math skillset, and the third is really, like you mentioned, around communication, and even HR and change management. So I could talk to each of those briefly. Information Technology It's an interesting role, right, because typically, people who are strong in IT may not have as much background or expertise in math or HR, and you could say that about the other two as well. These are the three different areas of skills that often do not overlap, and to be a good CDO, you absolutely must have all three skills areas. The IT skillset is all about new data technology. So I think the number one, if you go online and you look at search terms, the number one phrase that's most commonly associated with the chief data officer is data science. Data science, if you look at, again, it mean a lot of things to a lot of people. But chief data officers, chief analytics officers manage the data science function. Data science takes place in most companies now on top of newer data technology stacks. There are so many new technologies emerging every day that are absolutely critical for managing the function of data science, data integration. And so being able to go in and work with IT department on building out that technology suite, and even occasionally standing up IT infrastructure with these new kinds of tools that, you know, maybe the IT department is typically focused more on very, very proven technologies that are enterprise scale that could be deployed and maximized their IT ROI, that is what they should be focused on. That's the perfect focus for IT. But if that's all you do as a company, then you're never going to experiment with somebody's new technologies that are really required to do data science well, and this is where a CDO comes in. So, you know, it's really important to be able to stand up and manage some of these new IT technologies, and you have to be a hacker to make it work. I mean, a lot of companies I know spend a year and a half just trying to figure out how to productionalize their hadoop cluster inside their firewalls. So you have to know how to hack through these things and hack around them. I find a lot of my peers in the CDO community grew up as hackers, and you really have to have that hacker mindset and enjoy problem solving. Mathematics Secondary of math, I mean, this is really all algorithms so you need to understand machine learning. You need to know what are the different flavors of machine learning and how is it applied. And you need to be able to, I think in order to be good, you need to be able to get down to a fairly detailed level with your data scientist to talk about different packages, and how they're applied in different parameters that they're using in their model. Machine learning is just one area that's really hot right now but I think of advanced analytics, some statistics all have many different models that are used to solve different types of problems. And operations research, frankly, is an area that's often overlooked. There are many powerful quantitative techniques that come out of operations research, and increasingly now, computer science that are all really important and all have their place, and they're just different tools for different jobs. So we need to have that tool kits of algorithms to know which one or ones are best applicable to different business use cases. If you want to do a cluster analysis with a huge dataset, maybe you want to do a simple k-means. If you have a smaller dataset and you think you can get more insight out of it, then maybe you can do a hierarchical. It's just one simple example, but you need to be able to match the business use case to the scale of data to the algorithm. Change Management And then the third area, I mentioned the HR skillset, is really around change management. This is where most companies I see really fall down because most companies focus on insight. Insights are great. Insights don't make money. And this is where I'm talking specifically about like 20th century companies that are looking to be 21st century companies. Companies like that, they are filled with a lot of really great talent that's just not used to being data driven in their workflows. And quite often, sometimes, there's resistance to data. Maybe folks, at the end of the day, feel that their gut is going to give a better answer than a computer or an algorithm, and look, I'm not saying let's throw away gut feel. There are still many cases where we have to use gut feel, but I do believe that increasingly, over the next few decades, there are going to be a lot of knowledge workers that...their jobs are not going to be automated but they're going to be augmented. They will be using data. They'll be using analytics to more directly inform the decision that used to be made more on gut feel, not replacing them but augmenting. And getting folks who are not used to trusting a dashboard to trust the dashboard is really hard. It's really hard. It's change management, and there are reams and volumes written on change management. I've done a lot of this. I did a lot at American Express. You know, change management in business units, to become more data driven, there's a lot of best practices that go along with this. And by the way, the skillset though is nothing to do with IT and nothing to do with the math, the first two skillsets I mentioned. So, yeah, you're right. It's a very heterogeneous job that requires a very cross functional skillset to be successful. Inside Out Security: It sounds like you need to start working when you're 15 years old. Richard: You know, it's interesting. There's a lot to learn, I think, to be an effective chief data officer, for sure. Importance of Curiosity in Data, Technology and People Inside Out Security: And to also be curious about the data, to be curious about technology, and to be curious about people, too. Richard: That's a really, really good way of putting it. You're absolutely right. It's curious across all three of those ends. But it's something that I don't want to be discouraging. I think that folks, more often than not, earlier on in their careers, specialize in maybe the first area, or the second area, maybe IT or math, and then expand over time to have all three of those critical areas checked. But there are a lot of folks from data science increasingly are coming from liberal arts background. There's a whole new profession of data journalism. Data visualization is huge, and data science is coming in from that background. I would put that more on the HR communication skill bucket. And I think if you're smart and you're really curious, as you said, there should be nothing stopping you from going out and acquiring all the skills that we're talking about. Reasonable Timeline for Success Inside Out Security: And so if you became a CDO, how much of a timeline would you give yourself? Because sometimes, when you join a company, people are like: "What are you doing there? Are you here to cut costs? Are you here to streamline things?" What's a reasonable timeline you would give yourself as a CDO to validate and justify this new role? Richard: It's a good question. I think that there are critical checkpoints along the way. I'll start at the beginning. I think that the first critical checkpoint is 90 days before you start. And I'm not being facetious. I actually believe that a good chief data officer is not going to take any CDO role that's not set up the right way. And I've just found, with so many conversations I've had with companies that are looking to be successful in this area, they don't necessarily know how to structure the role for success. They don't know who...should the data warehouse and ETLT be under the CDO or not, or should that stay in IT. And so I really think that it's incumbent on a CDO to make sure that that role is structured for success before they accept the job. Almost be a consultant to...and actually, a lot of CDOs who are in their roles were consultants or advisers to companies through this process. I think that's number one, and then I think that, so coming in on day one with the right success structure and the right metrics is really important. And then, you know, I think that it's interesting. A lot of people argue back and forth about should we be driving quick hits or no, actually, we should be driving transformation. And it feels like there's people in one of these two camps, and the answer, I think, is actually both. You have to do both. I believe in taking a portfolio approach. I think that it's really important to very quickly, early on, identify a couple large transformational projects that are going to move the needle for the company, but are going to take more like, a year or two to do. But in addition to that, there's got to be a whole hopper full of monthly click hits that come out, and they're just stoking the fire, feeding the engagements of the business. Because if you just do one or the other, then you're either going to lose engagement or you're going to lose the larger potential. So I think, short answer to your question, the role needs to be set up for success. I think that within the first 90 days, a CDO needs to quickly assess the company, the situation, come up with an initial version of a road map, use a rigorous prioritization criteria to come up with a hopper of quick hits, data-driven quick hits, as well as a few big transformational projects that get the executive team and the board of directors excited. MIT’s International Society of Chief Data Officers Inside Out Security: I want to learn more about your role at ISCDO at MIT. Can you tell us a little bit more about this organization and some of the goals and objectives? Richard: Sure. So the MIT International Society for Chief Data Officers, it came out of several conversations that a few of us in the community were having with a couple professors in the Sloan school. Really, think of us as the IEEE for chief data officers. So, not affiliated with a vendor and really having more of a code of silence around our meetings. Place for folks who...chief data officers, chief analytic officers, really, think of the leaders of the data and analytics for $200 million plus companies, is more or less the range that we're seeing. To come together and roll up our sleeves and talk about what's worked, what hasn't worked, which vendors have delivered, which teams within which vendors have delivered, and what are common challenges. It always amazes me. …. From MIT, we went down to DC, and we were talking to chief data officers in the public sector. And I walked into those meetings thinking, "Oh, these people are going to have nothing in common with us in the private sector." They were talking about the challenges of data integration, and the challenges of driving quick hits, and getting engagement. And in the end, it amazed me at how similar so many of our challenges are, and just how many really of the best ideas, or I call them jiu-jitsu moves kind of ways of overcoming these challenges as an executive, really come from outside of our industry. So I think a lot of...it's important to obviously work with folks within one's industry to think about, specifics to regulatory issues, for example. But I think that it's equally critical to look outside of one's industry to find best practices in areas that other industries may be a little further along on some issues, and maybe they figured out something that we don't. So MIT ISCDO right now, I think we're on at around 150 executive members, would invite anyone interested, who thinks they qualify as an executive leader of data and analytics in companies have at least $100 million or so in revenue to apply. And we do screen all the potential members. And if assuming that somebody is qualified to be a member of our community, we would absolutely love to have them join us. Inside Out Security: Thank you so much, Richard. I'm wondering, if people want to follow you, how can people contact you or follow you on twitter? Richard: Yeah, sure. So I would say, first, iscdo.org. My twitter handle is @reWendell, and my email address if anyone wants to get a hold of me is richard@Wendell.io. Inside Out Security: Thank you so much, Richard. Richard: Thank you, Cindy. I enjoyed talking with you. I look forward to staying in touch.

Awards, contest winners, and Dan Weissenberger? This can only be our Fifth Annual Holiday Awards Spectacular! We dish on the best and worst of 2012, Brad's son drops in to share his best and worst of the year, and we give out some fabulous prizes based on a really cool random number generator. Featuring Dylan Collins, Brad Gallaway, Mike Bracken, Dan Weissenberger, Richard "It's not really a spoiler" Naik, and Tim "the Brett Farve thing is getting old" Spaeth.