Podcasts about richard you

Richard Seroter, Director of Outbound Product Management at Google, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss what's new at Google. Corey and Richard discuss how AI can move from a novelty to truly providing value, as well as the importance of people maintaining their skills and abilities rather than using AI as a black box solution. Richard also discusses how he views the DevRel function, and why he feels it's so critical to communicate expectations for product launches with customers. About RichardRichard Seroter is Director of Outbound Product Management at Google Cloud. He's also an instructor at Pluralsight, a frequent public speaker, and the author of multiple books on software design and development. Richard maintains a regularly updated blog (seroter.com) on topics of architecture and solution design and can be found on Twitter as @rseroter. Links Referenced: Google Cloud: https://cloud.google.com Personal website: https://seroter.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/rseroter LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seroter/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Human-scale teams use Tailscale to build trusted networks. Tailscale Funnel is a great way to share a local service with your team for collaboration, testing, and experimentation.  Funnel securely exposes your dev environment at a stable URL, complete with auto-provisioned TLS certificates. Use it from the command line or the new VS Code extensions. In a few keystrokes, you can securely expose a local port to the internet, right from the IDE.I did this in a talk I gave at Tailscale Up, their first inaugural developer conference. I used it to present my slides and only revealed that that's what I was doing at the end of it. It's awesome, it works! Check it out!Their free plan now includes 3 users & 100 devices. Try it at snark.cloud/tailscalescream Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. We have returning guest Richard Seroter here who has apparently been collecting words to add to his job title over the years that we've been talking to him. Richard, you are now the Director of Product Management and Developer Relations at Google Cloud. Do I have all those words in the correct order and I haven't forgotten any along the way?Richard: I think that's all right. I think my first job was at Anderson Consulting as an analyst, so my goal is to really just add more words to whatever these titles—Corey: It's an adjective collection, really. That's what a career turns into. It's really the length of a career and success is measured not by accomplishments but by word count on your resume.Richard: If your business card requires a comma, success.Corey: So, it's been about a year or so since we last chatted here. What have you been up to?Richard: Yeah, plenty of things here, still, at Google Cloud as we took on developer relations. And, but you know, Google Cloud proper, I think AI has—I don't know if you've noticed, AI has kind of taken off with some folks who's spending a lot the last year… juicing up services and getting things ready there. And you know, myself and the team kind of remaking DevRel for a 2023 sort of worldview. So, yeah we spent the last year just scaling and growing and in covering some new areas like AI, which has been fun.Corey: You became profitable, which is awesome. I imagined at some point, someone wound up, like, basically realizing that you need to, like, patch the hole in the pipe and suddenly the water bill is no longer $8 billion a quarter. And hey, that works super well. Like, wow, that explains our utility bill and a few other things as well. I imagine the actual cause is slightly more complex than that, but I am a simple creature.Richard: Yeah. I think we made more than YouTube last quarter, which was a good milestone when you think of—I don't think anybody who says Google Cloud is a fun side project of Google is talking seriously anymore.Corey: I misunderstood you at first. I thought you said that you're pretty sure you made more than I did last year. It's like, well, yes, if a multi-billion dollar company's hyperscale cloud doesn't make more than I personally do, then I have many questions. And if I make more than that, I have a bunch of different questions, all of which could be terrifying to someone.Richard: You're killing it. Yeah.Corey: I'm working on it. So, over the last year, another trend that's emerged has been a pivot away—thankfully—from all of the Web3 nonsense and instead embracing the sprinkle some AI on it. And I'm not—people are about to listen to this and think, wait a minute, is he subtweeting my company? No, I'm subtweeting everyone's company because it seems to be a universal phenomenon. What's your take on it?Richard: I mean, it's countercultural now to not start every conversation with let me tell you about our AI story. And hopefully, we're going to get past this cycle. I think the AI stuff is here to stay. This does not feel like a hype trend to me overall. Like, this is legit tech with real user interest. I think that's awesome.I don't think a year from now, we're going to be competing over who has the biggest model anymore. Nobody cares. I don't know if we're going to hopefully lead with AI the same way as much as, what is it doing for me? What is my experience? Is it better? Can I do this job better? Did you eliminate this complex piece of toil from my day two stuff? That's what we should be talking about. But right now it's new and it's interesting. So, we all have to rub some AI on it.Corey: I think that there is also a bit of a passing of the buck going on when it comes to AI where I've talked to companies that are super excited about how they have this new AI story that's going to be great. And, “Well, what does it do?” “It lets you query our interface to get an answer.” Okay, is this just cover for being bad UX?Richard: [laugh]. That can be true in some cases. In other cases, this will fix UXes that will always be hard. Like, do we need to keep changing… I don't know, I'm sure if you and I go to our favorite cloud providers and go through their documentation, it's hard to have docs for 200 services and millions of pages. Maybe AI will fix some of that and make it easier to discover stuff.So in some cases, UIs are just hard at scale. But yes, I think in some cases, this papers over other things not happening by just rubbing some AI on it. Hopefully, for most everybody else, it's actually interesting, new value. But yeah, that's a… every week it's a new press release from somebody saying they're about to launch some AI stuff. I don't know how any normal human is keeping up with it.Corey: I certainly don't know. I'm curious to see what happens but it's kind of wild, too, because there you're right. There is something real there where you ask it to draw you a picture of a pony or something and it does, or give me a bunch of random analysis of this. I asked one recently to go ahead and rank the US presidents by absorbency and with a straight face, it did it, which is kind of amazing. I feel like there's a lack of imagination in the way that people talk about these things and a certain lack of awareness that you can make this a lot of fun, and in some ways, make that a better showcase of the business value than trying to do the straight-laced thing of having it explain Microsoft Excel to you.Richard: I think that's fair. I don't know how much sometimes whimsy and enterprise mix. Sometimes that can be a tricky part of the value prop. But I'm with you this some of this is hopefully returns to some more creativity of things. I mean, I personally use things like Bard or what have you that, “Hey, I'm trying to think of this idea. Can you give me some suggestions?” Or—I just did a couple weeks ago—“I need sample data for my app.”I could spend the next ten minutes coming up with Seinfeld and Bob's Burgers characters, or just give me the list in two seconds in JSON. Like that's great. So, I'm hoping we get to use this for more fun stuff. I'll be fascinated to see if when I write the keynote for—I'm working on the keynote for Next, if I can really inject something completely off the wall. I guess you're challenging me and I respect that.Corey: Oh, I absolutely am. And one of the things that I believe firmly is that we lose sight of the fact that people are inherently multifaceted. Just because you are a C-level executive at an enterprise does not mean that you're not also a human being with a sense of creativity and a bit of whimsy as well. Everyone is going to compete to wind up boring you to death with PowerPoint. Find something that sparks the imagination and sparks joy.Because yes, you're going to find the boring business case on your own without too much in the way of prodding for that, but isn't it great to imagine what if? What if we could have fun with some of these things? At least to me, that's always been the goal is to get people's attention. Humor has been my path, but there are others.Richard: I'm with you. I think there's a lot to that. And the question will be… yeah, I mean, again, to me, you and I talked about this before we started recording, this is the first trend for me in a while that feels purely organic where our customers, now—and I'll tell our internal folks—our customers have much better ideas than we do. And it's because they're doing all kinds of wild things. They're trying new scenarios, they're building apps purely based on prompts, and they're trying to, you know, do this.And it's better than what we just come up with, which is awesome. That's how it should be, versus just some vendor-led hype initiative where it is just boring corporate stuff. So, I like the fact that this isn't just us talking; it's the whole industry talking. It's people talking to my non-technical family members, giving me ideas for what they're using this stuff for. I think that's awesome. So yeah, but I'm with you, I think companies can also look for more creative angles than just what's another way to left-align something in a cell.Corey: I mean, some of the expressions on this are wild to me. The Photoshop beta with its generative AI play has just been phenomenal. Because it's weird stuff, like, things that, yeah, I'm never going to be a great artist, let's be clear, but being able to say remove this person from the background, and it does it, as best I can tell, seamlessly is stuff where yeah, that would have taken me ages to find someone who knows what the hell they're doing on the internet somewhere and then pay them to do it. Or basically stumble my way through it for two hours and it somehow looks worse afterwards than before I started. It's the baseline stuff of, I'm never going to be able to have it—to my understanding—go ahead just build me a whole banner ad that does this and hit these tones and the rest, but it is going to help me refine something in that direction, until I can then, you know, hand it to a professional who can take it from my chicken scratching into something real.Richard: If it will. I think that's my only concern personally with some of this is I don't want this to erase expertise or us to think we can just get lazy. I think that I get nervous, like, can I just tell it to do stuff and I don't even check the output, or I don't do whatever. So, I think that's when you go back to, again, enterprise use cases. If this is generating code or instructions or documentation or what have you, I need to trust that output in some way.Or more importantly, I still need to retain the skills necessary to check it. So, I'm hoping people like you and me and all our —every—all the users out there of this stuff, don't just offload responsibility to the machine. Like, just always treat it like a kind of slightly drunk friend sitting next to you with good advice and always check it out.Corey: It's critical. I think that there's a lot of concern—and I'm not saying that people are wrong on this—but that people are now going to let it take over their jobs, it's going to wind up destroying industries. No, I think it's going to continue to automate things that previously required human intervention. But this has been true since the Industrial Revolution, where opportunities arise and old jobs that used to be critical are no longer centered in quite the same way. The one aspect that does concern me is not that kids are going to be used to cheat on essays like, okay, great, whatever. That seems to be floated mostly by academics who are concerned about the appropriate structure of academia.For me, the problem is, is there's a reason that we have people go through 12 years of English class in the United States and that is, it's not to dissect of the work of long-dead authors. It's to understand how to write and how to tell us a story and how to frame ideas cohesively. And, “The computer will do that for me,” I feel like that potentially might not serve people particularly well. But as a counterpoint, I was told when I was going to school my entire life that you're never going to have a calculator in your pocket all the time that you need one. No, but I can also speak now to the open air, ask it any math problem I can imagine, and get a correct answer spoken back to me. That also wasn't really in the bingo card that I had back then either, so I am a hesitant to try and predict the future.Richard: Yeah, that's fair. I think it's still important for a kid that I know how to make change or do certain things. I don't want to just offload to calculators or—I want to be able to understand, as you say, literature or things, not just ever print me out a book report. But that happens with us professionals, too, right? Like, I don't want to just atrophy all of my programming skills because all I'm doing is accepting suggestions from the machine, or that it's writing my emails for me. Like, that still weirds me out a little bit. I like to write an email or send a tweet or do a summary. To me, I enjoy those things still. I don't want to—that's not toil to me. So, I'm hoping that we just use this to make ourselves better and we don't just use it to make ourselves lazier.Corey: You mentioned a few minutes ago that you are currently working on writing your keynote for Next, so I'm going to pretend, through a vicious character attack here, that this is—you know, it's 11 o'clock at night, the day before the Next keynote and you found new and exciting ways to procrastinate, like recording a podcast episode with me. My question for you is, how is this Next going to be different than previous Nexts?Richard: Hmm. Yeah, I mean, for the first time in a while it's in person, which is wonderful. So, we'll have a bunch of folks at Moscone in San Francisco, which is tremendous. And I [unintelligible 00:11:56] it, too, I definitely have online events fatigue. So—because absolutely no one has ever just watched the screen entirely for a 15 or 30 or 60-minute keynote. We're all tabbing over to something else and multitasking. And at least when I'm in the room, I can at least pretend I'll be paying attention the whole time. The medium is different. So, first off, I'm just excited—Corey: Right. It feels a lot ruder to get up and walk out of the front row in the middle of someone's talk. Now, don't get me wrong, I'll still do it because I'm a jerk, but I'll feel bad about it as I do. I kid, I kid. But yeah, a tab away is always a thing. And we seem to have taken the same structure that works in those events and tried to force it into more or less a non-interactive Zoom call, and I feel like that is just very hard to distinguish.I will say that Google did a phenomenal job of online events, given the constraints it was operating under. Production value is great, the fact that you took advantage of being in different facilities was awesome. But yeah, it'll be good to be back in person again. I will be there with bells on in Moscone myself, mostly yelling at people, but you know, that's what I do.Richard: It's what you do. But we missed that hallway track. You missed this sort of bump into people. Do hands-on labs, purposely have nothing to do where you just walk around the show floor. Like we have been missing, I think, society-wise, a little bit of just that intentional boredom. And so, sometimes you need at conference events, too, where you're like, “I'm going to skip that next talk and just see what's going on around here.” That's awesome. You should do that more often.So, we're going to have a lot of spaces for just, like, go—like, 6000 square feet of even just going and looking at demos or doing hands-on stuff or talking with other people. Like that's just the fun, awesome part. And yeah, you're going to hear a lot about AI, but plenty about other stuff, too. Tons of announcements. But the key is that to me, community stuff, learn from each other stuff, that energy in person, you can't replicate that online.Corey: So, an area that you have expanded into has been DevRel, where you've always been involved with it, let's be clear, but it's becoming a bit more pronounced. And as an outsider, I look at Google Cloud's DevRel presence and I don't see as much of it as your staffing levels would indicate, to the naive approach. And let's be clear, that means from my perspective, all public-facing humorous, probably performative content in different ways, where you have zany music videos that, you know, maybe, I don't know, parody popular songs do celebrate some exec's birthday they didn't know was coming—[fake coughing]. Or creative nonsense on social media. And the the lack of seeing a lot of that could in part be explained by the fact that social media is wildly fracturing into a bunch of different islands which, on balance, is probably a good thing for the internet, but I also suspect it comes down to a common misunderstanding of what DevRel actually is.It turns out that, contrary to what many people wanted to believe in the before times, it is not getting paid as much as an engineer, spending three times that amount of money on travel expenses every year to travel to exotic places, get on stage, party with your friends, and then give a 45-minute talk that spends two minutes mentioning where you work and 45 minutes talking about, I don't know, how to pick the right standing desk. That has, in many cases, been the perception of DevRel and I don't think that's particularly defensible in our current macroeconomic climate. So, what are all those DevRel people doing?Richard: [laugh]. That's such a good loaded question.Corey: It's always good to be given a question where the answers are very clear there are right answers and wrong answers, and oh, wow. It's a fun minefield. Have fun. Go catch.Richard: Yeah. No, that's terrific. Yeah, and your first part, we do have a pretty well-distributed team globally, who does a lot of things. Our YouTube channel has, you know, we just crossed a million subscribers who are getting this stuff regularly. It's more than Amazon and Azure combined on YouTube. So, in terms of like that, audience—Corey: Counterpoint, you definitionally are YouTube. But that's neither here nor there, either. I don't believe you're juicing the stats, but it's also somehow… not as awesome if, say, I were to do it, which I'm working on it, but I have a face for radio and it shows.Richard: [laugh]. Yeah, but a lot of this has been… the quality and quantity. Like, you look at the quantity of video, it overwhelms everyone else because we spend a lot of time, we have a specific media team within my DevRel team that does the studio work, that does the production, that does all that stuff. And it's a concerted effort. That team's amazing. They do really awesome work.But, you know, a lot of DevRel as you say, [sigh] I don't know about you, I don't think I've ever truly believed in the sort of halo effect of if super smart person works at X company, even if they don't even talk about that company, that somehow presents good vibes and business benefits to that company. I don't think we've ever proven that's really true. Maybe you've seen counterpoints, where [crosstalk 00:16:34]—Corey: I can think of anecdata examples of it. Often though, on some level, for me at least, it's been okay someone I tremendously respect to the industry has gone to work at a company that I've never heard of. I will be paying attention to what that company does as a direct result. Conversely, when someone who is super well known, and has been working at a company for a while leaves and then either trashes the company on the way out or doesn't talk about it, it's a question of, what's going on? Did something horrible happen there? Should we no longer like that company? Are we not friends anymore? It's—and I don't know if that's necessarily constructive, either, but it also, on some level, feels like it can shorthand to oh, to be working DevRel, you have to be an influencer, which frankly, I find terrifying.Richard: Yeah. Yeah. I just—the modern DevRel, hopefully, is doing a little more of product-led growth style work. They're focusing specifically on how are we helping developers discover, engage, scale, become advocates themselves in the platform, increasing that flywheel through usage, but that has very discreet metrics, it has very specific ownership. Again, personally, I don't even think DevRel should do as much with sales teams because sales teams have hundreds and sometimes thousands of sales engineers and sales reps. It's amazing. They have exactly what they need.I don't think DevRel is a drop in the bucket to that team. I'd rather talk directly to developers, focus on people who are self-service signups, people who are developers in those big accounts. So, I think the modern DevRel team is doing more in that respect. But when I look at—I just look, Corey, this morning at what my team did last week—so the average DevRel team, I look at what advocacy does, teams writing code labs, they're building tutorials. Yes, they're doing some in person events. They wrote some blog posts, published some videos, shipped a couple open-source projects that they contribute to in, like gaming sector, we ship—we have a couple projects there.They're actually usually customer zero in the product. They use the product before it ships, provides bugs and feedback to the team, we run DORA workshops—because again, we're the DevOps Research and Assessment gang—we actually run the tutorial and Docs platform for Google Cloud. We have people who write code samples and reference apps. So, sometimes you see things publicly, but you don't see the 20,000 code samples in the docs, many written by our team. So, a lot of the times, DevRel is doing work to just enable on some of these different properties, whether that's blogs or docs, whether that's guest articles or event series, but all of this should be in service of having that credible relationship to help devs use the platform easier. And I love watching this team do that.But I think there's more to it now than years ago, where maybe it was just, let's do some amazing work and try to have some second, third-order effect. I think DevRel teams that can have very discrete metrics around leading indicators of long-term cloud consumption. And if you can't measure that successfully, you've probably got to rethink the team.[midroll 00:19:20]Corey: That's probably fair. I think that there's a tremendous series of… I want to call it thankless work. Like having done some of those ridiculous parody videos myself, people look at it and they chuckle and they wind up, that was clever and funny, and they move on to the next one. And they don't see the fact that, you know, behind the scenes for that three-minute video, there was a five-figure budget to pull all that together with a lot of people doing a bunch of disparate work. Done right, a lot of this stuff looks like it was easy or that there was no work at all.I mean, at some level, I'm as guilty of that as anyone. We're recording a podcast now that is going to be handed over to the folks at HumblePod. They are going to produce this into something that sounds coherent, they're going to fix audio issues, all kinds of other stuff across the board, a full transcript, and the rest. And all of that is invisible to me. It's like AI; it's the magic box I drop a file into and get podcast out the other side.And that does a disservice to those people who are actively working in that space to make things better. Because the good stuff that they do never gets attention, but then the company makes an interesting blunder in some way or another and suddenly, everyone's out there screaming and wondering why these people aren't responding on Twitter in 20 seconds when they're finding out about this stuff for the first time.Richard: Mm-hm. Yeah, that's fair. You know, different internal, external expectations of even DevRel. We've recently launched—I don't know if you caught it—something called Jump Start Solutions, which were executable reference architectures. You can come into the Google Cloud Console or hit one of our pages and go, “Hey, I want to do a multi-tier web app.” “Hey, I want to do a data processing pipeline.” Like, use cases.One click, we blow out the entire thing in the platform, use it, mess around with it, turn it off with one click. Most of those are built by DevRel. Like, my engineers have gone and built that. Tons of work behind the scenes. Really, like, production-grade quality type architectures, really, really great work. There's going to be—there's a dozen of these. We'll GA them at Next—but really, really cool work. That's DevRel. Now, that's behind-the-scenes work, but as engineering work.That can be some of the thankless work of setting up projects, deployment architectures, Terraform, all of them also dropped into GitHub, ton of work documenting those. But yeah, that looks like behind-the-scenes work. But that's what—I mean, most of DevRel is engineers. These are folks often just building the things that then devs can use to learn the platforms. Is it the flashy work? No. Is it the most important work? Probably.Corey: I do have a question I'd be remiss not to ask. Since the last time we spoke, relatively recently from this recording, Google—well, I'd say ‘Google announced,' but they kind of didn't—Squarespace announced that they'd be taking over Google domains. And there was a lot of silence, which I interpret, to be clear, as people at Google being caught by surprise, by large companies, communication is challenging. And that's fine, but I don't think it was anything necessarily nefarious.And then it came out further in time with an FAQ that Google published on their site, that Google Cloud domains was a part of this as well. And that took a lot of people aback, in the sense—not that it's hard to migrate a domain from one provider to another, but it brought up the old question of, if you're building something in cloud, how do you pick what to trust? And I want to be clear before you answer that, I know you work there. I know that there are constraints on what you can or cannot say.And for people who are wondering why I'm not hitting you harder on this, I want to be very explicit, I can ask you a whole bunch of questions that I already know the answer to, and that answer is that you can't comment. That's not constructive or creative. So, I don't want people to think that I'm not intentionally asking the hard questions, but I also know that I'm not going to get an answer and all I'll do is make you uncomfortable. But I think it's fair to ask, how do you evaluate what services or providers or other resources you're using when you're building in cloud that are going to be around, that you can trust building on top of?Richard: It's a fair question. Not everyone's on… let's update our software on a weekly basis and I can just swap things in left. You know, there's a reason that even Red Hat is so popular with Linux because as a government employee, I can use that Linux and know it's backwards compatible for 15 years. And they sell that. Like, that's the value, that this thing works forever.And Microsoft does the same with a lot of their server products. Like, you know, for better or for worse, [laugh] they will always kind of work with a component you wrote 15 years ago in SharePoint and somehow it runs today. I don't even know how that's possible. Love it. That's impressive.Now, there's a cost to that. There's a giant tax in the vendor space to make that work. But yeah, there's certain times where even with us, look, we are trying to get better and better at things like comms. And last year we announced—I checked them recently—you know, we have 185 Cloud products in our enterprise APIs. Meaning they have a very, very tight way we would deprecate with very, very long notice, they've got certain expectations on guarantees of how long you can use them, quality of service, all the SLAs.And so, for me, like, I would bank on, first off, for every cloud provider, whether they're anchor services. Build on those right? You know, S3 is not going anywhere from Amazon. Rock solid service. BigQuery Goodness gracious, it's the center of Google Cloud.And you look at a lot of services: what can you bet on that are the anchors? And then you can take bets on things that sit around it. There's times to be edgy and say, “Hey, I'll use Service Weaver,” which we open-sourced earlier this year. It's kind of a cool framework for building apps and we'll deconstruct it into microservices at deploy time. That's cool.Would I literally build my whole business on it? No, I don't think so. It's early stuff. Now, would I maybe use it also with some really boring VMs and boring API Gateway and boring storage? Totally. Those are going to be around forever.I think for me, personally, I try to think of how do I isolate things that have some variability to them. Now, to your point, sometimes you don't know there's variability. You would have just thought that service might be around forever. So, how are you supposed to know that that thing could go away at some point? And that's totally fair. I get that.Which is why we have to keep being better at comms, making sure more things are in our enterprise APIs, which is almost everything. So, you have some assurances, when I build this thing, I've got a multi-year runway if anything ever changes. Nothing's going to stay the same forever, but nothing should change tomorrow on a dime. We need more trust than that.Corey: Absolutely. And I agree. And the problem, too, is hidden dependencies. Let's say what is something very simple. I want to log in to [unintelligible 00:25:34] brand new AWS account and spin of a single EC2 instance. The end. Well, I can trust that EC2 is going to be there. Great. That's not one service you need to go through that critical path. It is a bare minimum six, possibly as many as twelve, depending upon what it is exactly you're doing.And it's the, you find out after the fact that oh, there was that hidden dependency in there that I wasn't fully aware of. That is a tricky and delicate balance to strike. And, again, no one is going to ever congratulate you—at all—on the decision to maintain a service that is internally painful and engineering-ly expensive to keep going, but as soon as you kill something, even it's for this thing doesn't have any customers, the narrative becomes, “They're screwing over their customers.” It's—they just said that it didn't have any. What's the concern here?It's a messaging problem; it is a reputation problem. Conversely, everyone knows that Amazon does not kill AWS services. Full stop. Yeah, that turns out everyone's wrong. By my count, they've killed ten, full-on AWS services and counting at the moment. But that is not the reputation that they have.Conversely, I think that the reputation that Google is going to kill everything that it touches is probably not accurate, though I don't know that I'd want to have them over to babysit either. So, I don't know. But it is something that it feels like you're swimming uphill on in many respects, just due to not even deprecation decisions, historically, so much as poor communication around them.Richard: Mm-hm. I mean, communication can always get better, you know. And that's, it's not our customers' problem to make sure that they can track every weird thing we feel like doing. It's not their challenge. If our business model changes or our strategy changes, that's not technically the customer's problem. So, it's always our job to make this as easy as possible. Anytime we don't, we have made a mistake.So, you know, even DevRel, hey, look, it puts teams in a tough spot. We want our customers to trust us. We have to earn that; you will never just give it to us. At the same time, as you say, “Hey, we're profitable. It's great. We're growing like weeds,” it's amazing to see how many people are using this platform. I mean, even services, you don't talk about having—I mean, doing really, really well. But I got to earn that. And you got to earn, more importantly, the scale. I don't want you to just kick the tires on Google Cloud; I want you to bet on it. But we're only going to earn that with really good support, really good price, stability, really good feeling like these services are rock solid. Have we totally earned that? We're getting there, but not as mature as we'd like to get yet, but I like where we're going.Corey: I agree. And reputations are tricky. I mean, recently InfluxDB deprecated two regions and wound up turning them off and deleting data. And they wound up getting massive blowback for this, which, to their credit, their co-founder and CTO, Paul Dix—who has been on the show before—wound up talking about and saying, “Yeah, that was us. We're taking ownership of this.”But the public announcement said that they had—that data in AWS was not recoverable and they're reaching out to see if the data in GCP was still available. At which point, I took the wrong impression from this. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hang on. Hold the phone here. Does that mean that data that I delete from a Google Cloud account isn't really deleted?Because I have a whole bunch of regulators that would like a word if so. And Paul jumped onto that with, “No, no, no, no, no. I want to be clear, we have a backup system internally that we were using that has that set up. And we deleted the backups on the AWS side; we don't believe we did on the Google Cloud side. It's purely us, not a cloud provider problem.” It's like, “Okay, first, sorry for causing a fire drill.” Secondly, “Okay, that's great.” But the reason I jumped in that direction was just because it becomes so easy when a narrative gets out there to believe the worst about companies that you don't even realize you're doing it.Richard: No, I understand. It's reflexive. And I get it. And look, B2B is not B2C, you know? In B2B, it's not, “Build it and they will come.” I think we have the best cloud infrastructure, the best security posture, and the most sophisticated managed services. I believe that I use all the clouds. I think that's true. But it doesn't matter unless you also do the things around it, around support, security, you know, usability, trust, you have to go sell these things and bring them to people. You can't just sit back and say, “It's amazing. Everyone's going to use it.” You've got to earn that. And so, that's something that we're still on the journey of, but our foundation is terrific. We just got to do a better job on some of these intangibles around it.Corey: I agree with you, when you s—I think there's a spirited debate you could have on any of those things you said that you believe that Google Cloud is the best at, with the exception of security, where I think that is unquestionably. I think that is a lot less variable than the others. The others are more or less, “Who has the best cloud infrastructure?” Well, depends on who had what for breakfast today. But the simplicity and the approach you take to security is head and shoulders above the competition.And I want to make sure I give credit where due: it is because of that simplicity and default posturing that customers wind up better for it as a result. Otherwise, you wind up in this hell of, “You must have at least this much security training to responsibly secure your environment.” And that is never going to happen. People read far less than we wish they would. I want to make very clear that Google deserves the credit for that security posture.Richard: Yeah, and the other thing, look, I'll say that, from my observation, where we do something that feels a little special and different is we do think in platforms, we think in both how we build and how we operate and how the console is built by a platform team, you—singularly. How—[is 00:30:51] we're doing Duet AI that we've pre-announced at I/O and are shipping. That is a full platform experience covering a dozen services. That is really hard to do if you have a lot of isolation. So, we've done a really cool job thinking in platforms and giving that simplicity at that platform level. Hard to do, but again, we have to bring people to it. You're not going to discover it by accident.Corey: Richard, I will let you get back to your tear-filled late-night writing of tomorrow's Next keynote, but if people want to learn more—once the dust settles—where's the best place for them to find you?Richard: Yeah, hopefully, they continue to hang out at cloud.google.com and using all the free stuff, which is great. You can always find me at seroter.com. I read a bunch every day and then I've read a blog post every day about what I read, so if you ever want to tune in on that, just see what wacky things I'm checking out in tech, that is good. And I still hang out on different social networks, Twitter at @rseroter and LinkedIn and things like that. But yeah, join in and yell at me about anything I said.Corey: I did not realize you had a daily reading list of what you put up there. That is news to me and I will definitely track in, and then of course, yell at you from the cheap seats when I disagree with anything that you've chosen to include. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me and suffer the uncomfortable questions.Richard: Hey, I love it. If people aren't talking about us, then we don't matter, so I would much rather we'd be yelling about us than the opposite there.Corey: [laugh]. As always, it's been a pleasure. Richard Seroter, Director of Product Management and Developer Relations at Google Cloud. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment that you had an AI system write for you because you never learned how to structure a sentence.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

In this episode, Richard Whittaker, founder of works & conversations magazine, who has interviewed over 200 artists, candidly shares his and other's experiences and insights about the struggle, mystery, and ecstatic joy of living a creative life. The stories, quirks, twists and turns of being creative are viewed in a larger context of what it means to be authentic and present in the choices we make and the paths we follow. Richard Whittaker is the founding editor of works & conversations and is the West Coast editor of Parabola magazine. Although he holds degrees in philosophy and clinical psychology, he has been immersed in the arts for over 50 years and works in ceramics, painting, sculpture, and photography. QUOTES RICHARD: “I could say the words, but in a way, I, I couldn't bring the rest of myself to my own words. And when I saw that, because I was trying to reach deep and reach high in my work, I felt it was inauthentic and not responsible and not honest if I couldn't bring my whole self to my words and stand there behind my words or under my words. “ RICHARD: "You see poetry in many forms when you see something that embodies the beauty of wholeness and grace and your heart is touched. That's ... poetry." RICHARD:  “I don't care if I call myself an artist or not...What's important is this experience. And if I make things that are art...it doesn't matter so much. But I had a decision to make, and I made this decision that I would try to give myself a hundred percent to this creative side of myself that I had never explicitly decreed to be my path.” LINKS works&conversations.org 4 Interviews About Richard Whittaker:  A Conversation with Richard Whittaker: To see from the intelligence of the heart by James Manteith, Tatiana Apraksina,  Apr 9, 2020    A Conversation with Richard Whittaker: Berkeley Treasures by Robbin Henderson, Jan 22, 2018 Interview: Richard Whittaker: Talking with Artists by Carl Cheng, May 31, 2012 War Babies: A Generation's Stories and America's Soul: Richard Whittaker "Sunday Morning" by Wallace Stevens  Who Makes Originals, Ever? A Conversation with Viola Frey by Richard Whittaker, Aug 8, 2002 The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism Godfrey Reggio, life and works Luis Bunel Magic Flute: A Conversation with Marvin Sanders by Richard Whittaker, Apr 2, 2007 A Conversation with Lee Hoinacki: Conscience and Courage by Richard Whittaker, Sep 21, 2002 A Conversation with Dickson Schneider: Free Art by Richard Whittaker, May 12, 2017 Looking for Something That's True: A Conversation with Dickson Schneider by Richard Whittaker, Jan 8, 2001  Ivan Illich servicespace.org         

There's no substitute for first-hand experience, particularly in communication. IN this episode of the Content-Led Growth podcast, our host talks to Richard White, the CEO and Founder of Fathom talks about recreating first-hand experience of Zoom calls through accurate note taking and recording. Richard also talks about the value of creating inspiring and authentic content as a way to target early adopters and build your brand.  HIGHLIGHTS Making zoom calls easier through FathomPeople know when feedback is not authentic Why Richard created FathomCreating content from a brand-building perspective Targeting early adopters with longform contentPeople are gravitating towards authentic albeit less polished contentCelebrate your early adopters and reward them  QUOTES Why unfiltered and firsthand content is much more impactful, says Richard: "You show an engineer someone talking about a problem, it's so much more impactful than just hearing through the grapevine that, oh people want this feature or are frustrated with this. It drives a lot of really good alignment internally when you can just share with everyone that firsthand experience of hearing the customer rant, rave excitedly or frustratingly about something."Richard on why Fathom was born: "Two years ago I was doing a ton of zoom calls. Some 200 zoom calls in the first six weeks of the year, a lot of it user research. And it led to me being really frustrated trying to talk to people [while] taking notes. It led to me being really frustrated with sharing this to my team and them not being a good representation of the call."Why Richard prefers to target early adopters: "The people that we reach through the podcast, it's not about, is this gonna help 10x our growth. This helps us find the really interesting early adopters that have really interesting connections, really interesting perspectives. They may turn into power users. They may turn into investors, etc." Connect with Richard through the link below: LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/rrwhite/ Learn more about Chris in the links below: LinkedIn (Chris) - https://www.linkedin.com/in/decker-christopher/Also, you can join our community by checking out @salescast.community. If you're a sales professional looking to take your career to greater heights, please visit us at https://salescast.co/ and set a call with Chris.

About RichardRichard "RichiH" Hartmann is the Director of Community at Grafana Labs, Prometheus team member, OpenMetrics founder, OpenTelemetry member, CNCF Technical Advisory Group Observability chair, CNCF Technical Oversight Committee member, CNCF Governing Board member, and more. He also leads, organizes, or helps run various conferences from hundreds to 18,000 attendess, including KubeCon, PromCon, FOSDEM, DENOG, DebConf, and Chaos Communication Congress. In the past, he made mainframe databases work, ISP backbones run, kept the largest IRC network on Earth running, and designed and built a datacenter from scratch. Go through his talks, podcasts, interviews, and articles at https://github.com/RichiH/talks or follow him on Twitter at https://twitter.com/TwitchiH for musings on the intersection of technology and society.Links Referenced: Grafana Labs: https://grafana.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/TwitchiH Richard Hartmann list of talks: https://github.com/richih/talks TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at AWS AppConfig. Engineers love to solve, and occasionally create, problems. But not when it's an on-call fire-drill at 4 in the morning. Software problems should drive innovation and collaboration, NOT stress, and sleeplessness, and threats of violence. That's why so many developers are realizing the value of AWS AppConfig Feature Flags. Feature Flags let developers push code to production, but hide that that feature from customers so that the developers can release their feature when it's ready. This practice allows for safe, fast, and convenient software development. You can seamlessly incorporate AppConfig Feature Flags into your AWS or cloud environment and ship your Features with excitement, not trepidation and fear. To get started, go to snark.cloud/appconfig. That's snark.cloud/appconfig.Corey: This episode is brought to us in part by our friends at Datadog. Datadog's SaaS monitoring and security platform that enables full stack observability for developers, IT operations, security, and business teams in the cloud age. Datadog's platform, along with 500 plus vendor integrations, allows you to correlate metrics, traces, logs, and security signals across your applications, infrastructure, and third party services in a single pane of glass.Combine these with drag and drop dashboards and machine learning based alerts to help teams troubleshoot and collaborate more effectively, prevent downtime, and enhance performance and reliability. Try Datadog in your environment today with a free 14 day trial and get a complimentary T-shirt when you install the agent.To learn more, visit datadoghq/screaminginthecloud to get. That's www.datadoghq/screaminginthecloudCorey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. There are an awful lot of people who are incredibly good at understanding the ins and outs and the intricacies of the observability world. But they didn't have time to come on the show today. Instead, I am talking to my dear friend of two decades now, Richard Hartmann, better known on the internet as RichiH, who is the Director of Community at Grafana Labs, here to suffer—in a somewhat atypical departure for the theme of this show—personal attacks for once. Richie, thank you for joining me.Richard: And thank you for agreeing on personal attacks.Corey: Exactly. It was one of your riders. Like, there have to be the personal attacks back and forth or you refuse to appear on the show. You've been on before. In fact, the last time we did a recording, I believe you were here in person, which was a long time ago. What have you been up to?You're still at Grafana Labs. And in many cases, I would point out that, wow, you've been there for many years; that seems to be an atypical thing, which is an American tech industry perspective because every time you and I talk about this, you look at folks who—wow, you were only at that company for five years. What's wrong with you—you tend to take the longer view and I tend to have the fast twitch, time to go ahead and leave jobs because it's been more than 20 minutes approach. I see that you're continuing to live what you preach, though. How's it been?Richard: Yeah, so there's a little bit of Covid brains, I think. When we talked in 2018, I was still working at SpaceNet, building a data center. But the last two-and-a-half years didn't really happen for many people, myself included. So, I guess [laugh] that includes you.Corey: No, no you're right. You've only been at Grafana Labs a couple of years. One would think I would check the notes for shooting my mouth off. But then, one wouldn't know me.Richard: What notes? Anyway, I've been around Prometheus and Grafana Since 2015. But it's like, real, full-time everything is 2020. There was something in between. Since 2018, I contracted to do vulnerability handling and everything for Grafana Labs because they had something and they didn't know how to deal with it.But no, full time is 2020. But as to the space in the [unintelligible 00:02:45] of itself, it's maybe a little bit German of me, but trying to understand the real world and trying to get an overview of systems and how they actually work, and if they are working correctly and as intended, and if not, how they're not working as intended, and how to fix this is something which has always been super important to me, in part because I just want to understand the world. And this is a really, really good way to automate understanding of the world. So, it's basically a work-saving mechanism. And that's why I've been sticking to it for so long, I guess.Corey: Back in the early days of monitoring systems—so we called it monitoring back then because, you know, are using simple words that lack nuance was sort of de rigueur back then—we wound up effectively having tools. Nagios is the one that springs to mind, and it was terrible in all the ways you would expect a tool written in janky Perl in the early-2000s to be. But it told you what was going on. It tried to do a thing, generally reach a server or query it about things, and when things fell out of certain specs, it screamed its head off, which meant that when you had things like the core switch melting down—thinking of one very particular incident—you didn't get a Nagios alert; you got 4000 Nagios alerts. But start to finish, you could wrap your head rather fully around what Nagios did and why it did the sometimes strange things that it did.These days, when you take a look at Prometheus, which we hear a lot about, particularly in the Kubernetes space and Grafana, which is often mentioned in the same breath, it's never been quite clear to me exactly where those start and stop. It always feels like it's a component in a larger system to tell you what's going on rather than a one-stop shop that's going to, you know, shriek its head off when something breaks in the middle of the night. Is that the right way to think about it? The wrong way to think about it?Richard: It's a way to think about it. So personally, I use the terms monitoring and observability pretty much interchangeably. Observability is a relatively well-defined term, even though most people won't agree. But if you look back into the '70s into control theory where the term is coming from, it is the measure of how much you're able to determine the internal state of a system by looking at its inputs and its outputs. Depending on the definition, some people don't include the inputs, but that is the OG definition as far as I'm aware.And from this, there flow a lot of things. This question of—or this interpretation of the difference between telling that, yes, something's broken versus why something's broken. Or if you can't ask new questions on the fly, it's not observability. Like all of those things are fundamentally mapped to this definition of, I need enough data to determine the internal state of whatever system I have just by looking at what is coming in, what is going out. And that is at the core the thing. Now, obviously, it's become a buzzword, which is oftentimes the fate of successful things. So, it's become a buzzword, and you end up with cargo culting.Corey: I would argue periodically, that observability is hipster monitoring. If you call it monitoring, you get yelled at by Charity Majors. Which is tongue and cheek, but she has opinions, made, nonetheless shall I say, frustrating by the fact that she is invariably correct in those opinions, which just somehow makes it so much worse. It would be easy to dismiss things she says if she weren't always right. And the world is changing, especially as we get into the world of distributed systems.Is the server that runs the app working or not working loses meaning when we're talking about distributed systems, when we're talking about containers running on top of Kubernetes, which turns every outage into a murder mystery. We start having distributed applications composed of microservices, so you have no idea necessarily where an issue is. Okay, is this one microservice having an issue related to the request coming into a completely separate microservice? And it seems that for those types of applications, the answer has been tracing for a long time now, where originally that was something that felt like it was sprung, fully-formed from the forehead of some God known as one of the hyperscalers, but now is available to basically everyone, in theory.In practice, it seems that instrumenting applications still one of the hardest parts of all of this. I tried hooking up one of my own applications to be observed via OTEL, the open telemetry project, and it turns out that right now, OTEL and AWS Lambda have an intersection point that makes everything extremely difficult to work with. It's not there yet; it's not baked yet. And someday, I hope that changes because I would love to interchangeably just throw metrics and traces and logs to all the different observability tools and see which ones work, which ones don't, but that still feels very far away from current state of the art.Richard: Before we go there, maybe one thing which I don't fully agree with. You said that previously, you were told if a service up or down, that's the thing which you cared about, and I don't think that's what people actually cared about. At that time, also, what they fundamentally cared about: is the user-facing service up, or down, or impacted? Is it slow? Does it return errors every X percent for requests, something like this?Corey: Is the site up? And—you're right, I was hand-waving over a whole bunch of things. It was, “Okay. First, the web server is returning a page, yes or no? Great. Can I ping the server?” Okay, well, there are ways of server can crash and still leave enough of the TCP/IP stack up or it can respond to pings and do little else.And then you start adding things to it. But the Nagios thing that I always wanted to add—and had to—was, is the disk full? And that was annoying. And, on some level, like, why should I care in the modern era how much stuff is on the disk because storage is cheap and free and plentiful? The problem is, after the third outage in a month because the disk filled up, you start to not have a good answer for well, why aren't you monitoring whether the disk is full?And that was the contributors to taking down the server. When the website broke, there were what felt like a relatively small number of reasonably well-understood contributors to that at small to midsize applications, which is what I'm talking about, the only things that people would let me touch. I wasn't running hyperscale stuff where you have a fleet of 10,000 web servers and, “Is the server up?” Yeah, in that scenario, no one cares. But when we're talking about the database server and the two application servers and the four web servers talking to them, you think about it more in terms of pets than you do cattle.Richard: Yes, absolutely. Yet, I think that was a mistake back then, and I tried to do it differently, as a specific example with the disk. And I'm absolutely agreeing that previous generation tools limit you in how you can actually work with your data. In particular, once you're with metrics where you can do actual math on the data, it doesn't matter if the disk is almost full. It matters if that disk is going to be full within X amount of time.If that disk is 98% full and it sits there at 98% for ten years and provides the service, no one cares. The thing is, will it actually run out in the next two hours, in the next five hours, what have you. Depending on this, is this currently or imminently a customer-impacting or user-impacting then yes, alert on it, raise hell, wake people, make them fix it, as opposed to this thing can be dealt with during business hours on the next workday. And you don't have to wake anyone up.Corey: Yeah. The big filer with massive amounts of storage has crossed the 70% line. Okay, now it's time to start thinking about that, what do you want to do? Maybe it's time to order another shelf of discs for it, which is going to take some time. That's a radically different scenario than the 20 gigabyte root volume on your server just started filling up dramatically; the rate of change is such that'll be full in 20 minutes.Yeah, one of those is something you want to wake people up for. Generally speaking, you don't want to wake people up for what is fundamentally a longer-term strategic business problem. That can be sorted out in the light of day versus, “[laugh] we're not going to be making money in two hours, so if I don't wake up and fix this now.” That's the kind of thing you generally want to be woken up for. Well, let's be honest, you don't want that to happen at all, but if it does happen, you kind of want to know in advance rather than after the fact.Richard: You're literally describing linear predict from Prometheus, which is precisely for this, where I can look back over X amount of time and make a linear prediction because everything else breaks down at scale, blah, blah, blah, to detail. But the thing is, I can draw a line with my pencil by hand on my data and I can predict when is this thing going to it. Which is obviously precisely correct if I have a TLS certificate. It's a little bit more hand-wavy when it's a disk. But still, you can look into the future and you say, “What will be happening if current trends for the last X amount of time continue in Y amount of time.” And that's precisely a thing where you get this more powerful ability of doing math with your data.Corey: See, when you say it like that, it sounds like it actually is a whole term of art, where you're focusing on an in-depth field, where salaries are astronomical. Whereas the tools that I had to talk about this stuff back in the day made me sound like, effectively, the sysadmin that I was grunting and pointing: “This is gonna fill up.” And that is how I thought about it. And this is the challenge where it's easy to think about these things in narrow, defined contexts like that, but at scale, things break.Like the idea of anomaly detection. Well, okay, great if normally, the CPU and these things are super bored and suddenly it gets really busy, that's atypical. Maybe we should look into it, assuming that it has a challenge. The problem is, that is a lot harder than it sounds because there are so many factors that factor into it. And as soon as you have something, quote-unquote, “Intelligent,” making decisions on this, it doesn't take too many false positives before you start ignoring everything it has to say, and missing legitimate things. It's this weird and obnoxious conflation of both hard technical problems and human psychology.Richard: And the breaking up of old service boundaries. Of course, when you say microservices, and such, fundamentally, functionally a microservice or nanoservice, picoservice—but the pendulum is already swinging back to larger units of complexity—but it fundamentally does not make any difference if I have a monolith on some mainframe or if I have a bunch of microservices. Yes, I can scale differently, I can scale horizontally a lot more easily, vertically, it's a little bit harder, blah, blah, blah, but fundamentally, the logic and the complexity, which is being packaged is fundamentally the same. More users, everything, but it is fundamentally the same. What's happening again, and again, is I'm breaking up those old boundaries, which means the old tools which have assumptions built in about certain aspects of how I can actually get an overview of a system just start breaking down, when my complexity unit or my service or what have I, is usually congruent with a physical piece, of hardware or several services are congruent with that piece of hardware, it absolutely makes sense to think about things in terms of this one physical server. The fact that you have different considerations in cloud, and microservices, and blah, blah, blah, is not inherently that it is more complex.On the contrary, it is fundamentally the same thing. It scales with users' everything, but it is fundamentally the same thing, but I have different boundaries of where I put interfaces onto my complexity, which basically allow me to hide all of this complexity from the downstream users.Corey: That's part of the challenge that I think we're grappling with across this entire industry from start to finish. Where we originally looked at these things and could reason about it because it's the computer and I know how those things work. Well, kind of, but okay, sure. But then we start layering levels of complexity on top of layers of complexity on top of layers of complexity, and suddenly, when things stop working the way that we expect, it can be very challenging to unpack and understand why. One of the ways I got into this whole space was understanding, to some degree, of how system calls work, of how the kernel wound up interacting with userspace, about how Linux systems worked from start to finish. And these days, that isn't particularly necessary most of the time for the care and feeding of applications.The challenge is when things start breaking, suddenly having that in my back pocket to pull out could be extremely handy. But I don't think it's nearly as central as it once was and I don't know that I would necessarily advise someone new to this space to spend a few years as a systems person, digging into a lot of those aspects. And this is why you need to know what inodes are and how they work. Not really, not anymore. It's not front and center the way that it once was, in most environments, at least in the world that I live in. Agree? Disagree?Richard: Agreed. But it's very much unsurprising. You probably can't tell me how to precisely grow sugar cane or corn, you can't tell me how to refine the sugar out of it, but you can absolutely bake a cake. But you will not be able to tell me even a third of—and I'm—for the record, I'm also not able to tell you even a third about the supply chain which just goes from I have a field and some seeds and I need to have a package of refined sugar—you're absolutely enabled to do any of this. The thing is, you've been part of the previous generation of infrastructure where you know how this underlying infrastructure works, so you have more ability to reason about this, but it's not needed for cloud services nearly as much.You need different types of skill sets, but that doesn't mean the old skill set is completely useless, at least not as of right now. It's much more a case of you need fewer of those people and you need them in different places because those things have become infrastructure. Which is basically the cloud play, where a lot of this is just becoming infrastructure more and more.Corey: Oh, yeah. Back then I distinctly remember my elders looking down their noses at me because I didn't know assembly, and how could I possibly consider myself a competent systems admin if I didn't at least have a working knowledge of assembly? Or at least C, which I, over time, learned enough about to know that I didn't want to be a C programmer. And you're right, this is the value of cloud and going back to those days getting a web server up and running just to compile Apache's httpd took a week and an in-depth knowledge of GCC flags.And then in time, oh, great. We're going to have rpm or debs. Great, okay, then in time, you have apt, if you're in the dev land because I know you are a Debian developer, but over in Red Hat land, we had yum and other tools. And then in time, it became oh, we can just use something like Puppet or Chef to wind up ensuring that thing is installed. And then oh, just docker run. And now it's a checkbox in a web console for S3.These things get easier with time and step by step by step we're standing on the shoulders of giants. Even in the last ten years of my career, I used to have a great challenge question that I would interview people with of, “Do you know what TinyURL is? It takes a short URL and then expands it to a longer one. Great, on the whiteboard, tell me how you would implement that.” And you could go up one side and down the other, and then you could add constraints, multiple data centers, now one goes offline, how do you not lose data? Et cetera, et cetera.But these days, there are so many ways to do that using cloud services that it almost becomes trivial. It's okay, multiple data centers, API Gateway, a Lambda, and a global DynamoDB table. Now, what? “Well, now it gets slow. Why is it getting slow?”“Well, in that scenario, probably because of something underlying the cloud provider.” “And so now, you lose an entire AWS region. How do you handle that?” “Seems to me when that happens, the entire internet's kind of broken. Do people really need longer URLs?”And that is a valid answer, in many cases. The question doesn't really work without a whole bunch of additional constraints that make it sound fake. And that's not a weakness. That is the fact that computers and cloud services have never been as accessible as they are now. And that's a win for everyone.Richard: There's one aspect of accessibility which is actually decreasing—or two. A, you need to pay for them on an ongoing basis. And B, you need an internet connection which is suitably fast, low latency, what have you. And those are things which actually do make things harder for a variety of reasons. If I look at our back-end systems—as in Grafana—all of them have single binary modes where you literally compile everything into a single binary and you can run it on your laptop because if you're stuck on a plane, you can't do any work on it. That kind of is not the best of situations.And if you have a huge CI/CD pipeline, everything in this cloud and fine and dandy, but your internet breaks. Yeah, so I do agree that it is becoming generally more accessible. I disagree that it is becoming more accessible along all possible axes.Corey: I would agree. There is a silver lining to that as well, where yes, they are fraught and dangerous and I would preface this with a whole bunch of warnings, but from a cost perspective, all of the cloud providers do have a free tier offering where you can kick the tires on a lot of these things in return for no money. Surprisingly, the best one of those is Oracle Cloud where they have an unlimited free tier, use whatever you want in this subset of services, and you will never be charged a dime. As opposed to the AWS model of free tier where well, okay, it suddenly got very popular or you misconfigured something, and surprise, you now owe us enough money to buy Belize. That doesn't usually lead to a great customer experience.But you're right, you can't get away from needing an internet connection of at least some level of stability and throughput in order for a lot of these things to work. The stuff you would do locally on a Raspberry Pi, for example, if your budget constrained and want to get something out here, or your laptop. Great, that's not going to work in the same way as a full-on cloud service will.Richard: It's not free unless you have hard guarantees that you're not going to ever pay anything. It's fine to send warning, it's fine to switch the thing off, it's fine to have you hit random hard and soft quotas. It is not a free service if you can't guarantee that it is free.Corey: I agree with you. I think that there needs to be a free offering where, “Well, okay, you want us to suddenly stop serving traffic to the world?” “Yes. When the alternative is you have to start charging me through the nose, yes I want you to stop serving traffic.” That is definitionally what it says on the tin.And as an independent learner, that is what I want. Conversely, if I'm an enterprise, yeah, I don't care about money; we're running our Superbowl ad right now, so whatever you do, don't stop serving traffic. Charge us all the money. And there's been a lot of hand wringing about, well, how do we figure out which direction to go in? And it's, have you considered asking the customer?So, on a scale of one to bank, how serious is this account going to be [laugh]? Like, what are your big concerns: never charge me or never go down? Because we can build for either of those. Just let's make sure that all of those expectations are aligned. Because if you guess you're going to get it wrong and then no one's going to like you.Richard: I would argue this. All those services from all cloud providers actually build to address both of those. It's a deliberate choice not to offer certain aspects.Corey: Absolutely. When I talk to AWS, like, “Yeah, but there is an eventual consistency challenge in the billing system where it takes”—as anyone who's looked at the billing system can see—“Multiple days, sometimes for usage data to show up. So, how would we be able to stop things if the usage starts climbing?” To which my relatively direct responses, that sounds like a huge problem. I don't know how you'd fix that, but I do know that if suddenly you decide, as a matter of policy, to okay, if you're in the free tier, we will not charge you, or even we will not charge you more than $20 a month.So, you build yourself some headroom, great. And anything that people are able to spin up, well, you're just going to have to eat the cost as a provider. I somehow suspect that would get fixed super quickly if that were the constraint. The fact that it isn't is a conscious choice.Richard: Absolutely.Corey: And the reason I'm so passionate about this, about the free space, is not because I want to get a bunch of things for free. I assure you I do not. I mean, I spend my life fixing AWS bills and looking at AWS pricing, and my argument is very rarely, “It's too expensive.” It's that the billing dimension is hard to predict or doesn't align with a customer's experience or prices a service out of a bunch of use cases where it'll be great. But very rarely do I just sit here shaking my fist and saying, “It costs too much.”The problem is when you scare the living crap out of a student with a surprise bill that's more than their entire college tuition, even if you waive it a week or so later, do you think they're ever going to be as excited as they once were to go and use cloud services and build things for themselves and see what's possible? I mean, you and I met on IRC 20 years ago because back in those days, the failure mode and the risk financially was extremely low. It's yeah, the biggest concern that I had back then when I was doing some of my Linux experimentation is if I typed the wrong thing, I'm going to break my laptop. And yeah, that happened once or twice, and I've learned not to make those same kinds of mistakes, or put guardrails in so the blast radius was smaller, or use a remote system instead. Yeah, someone else's computer that I can destroy. Wonderful. But that was on we live and we learn as we were coming up. There was never an opportunity for us, to my understanding, to wind up accidentally running up an $8 million charge.Richard: Absolutely. And psychological safety is one of the most important things in what most people do. We are social animals. Without this psychological safety, you're not going to have long-term, self-sustaining groups. You will not make someone really excited about it. There's two basic ways to sell: trust or force. Those are the two ones. There's none else.Corey: Managing shards. Maintenance windows. Overprovisioning. ElastiCache bills. I know, I know. It's a spooky season and you're already shaking. It's time for caching to be simpler. Momento Serverless Cache lets you forget the backend to focus on good code and great user experiences. With true autoscaling and a pay-per-use pricing model, it makes caching easy. No matter your cloud provider, get going for free at gomemento.co/screaming That's GO M-O-M-E-N-T-O dot co slash screamingCorey: Yeah. And it also looks ridiculous. I was talking to someone somewhat recently who's used to spending four bucks a month on their AWS bill for some S3 stuff. Great. Good for them. That's awesome. Their credentials got compromised. Yes, that is on them to some extent. Okay, great.But now after six days, they were told that they owed $360,000 to AWS. And I don't know how, as a cloud company, you can sit there and ask a student to do that. That is not a realistic thing. They are what is known, in the United States at least, in the world of civil litigation as quote-unquote, “Judgment proof,” which means, great, you could wind up finding that someone owes you $20 billion. Most of the time, they don't have that, so you're not able to recoup it. Yeah, the judgment feels good, but you're never going to see it.That's the problem with something like that. It's yeah, I would declare bankruptcy long before, as a student, I wound up paying that kind of money. And I don't hear any stories about them releasing the collection agency hounds against people in that scenario. But I couldn't guarantee that. I would never urge someone to ignore that bill and see what happens.And it's such an off-putting thing that, from my perspective, is beneath of the company. And let's be clear, I see this behavior at times on Google Cloud, and I see it on Azure as well. This is not something that is unique to AWS, but they are the 800-pound gorilla in the space, and that's important. Or as I just to mention right now, like, as I—because I was about to give you crap for this, too, but if I go to grafana.com, it says, and I quote, “Play around with the Grafana Stack. Experience Grafana for yourself, no registration or installation needed.”Good. I was about to yell at you if it's, “Oh, just give us your credit card and go ahead and start spinning things up and we won't charge you. Honest.” Even your free account does not require a credit card; you're doing it right. That tells me that I'm not going to get a giant surprise bill.Richard: You have no idea how much thought and work went into our free offering. There was a lot of math involved.Corey: None of this is easy, I want to be very clear on that. Pricing is one of the hardest things to get right, especially in cloud. And it also, when you get it right, it doesn't look like it was that hard for you to do. But I fix [sigh] I people's AWS bills for a living and still, five or six years in, one of the hardest things I still wrestle with is pricing engagements. It's incredibly nuanced, incredibly challenging, and at least for services in the cloud space where you're doing usage-based billing, that becomes a problem.But glancing at your pricing page, you do hit the two things that are incredibly important to me. The first one is use something for free. As an added bonus, you can use it forever. And I can get started with it right now. Great, when I go and look at your pricing page or I want to use your product and it tells me to ‘click here to contact us.' That tells me it's an enterprise sales cycle, it's got to be really expensive, and I'm not solving my problem tonight.Whereas the other side of it, the enterprise offering needs to be ‘contact us' and you do that, that speaks to the enterprise procurement people who don't know how to sign a check that doesn't have to commas in it, and they want to have custom terms and all the rest, and they're prepared to pay for that. If you don't have that, you look to small-time. When it doesn't matter what price you put on it, you wind up offering your enterprise tier at some large number, it's yeah, for some companies, that's a small number. You don't necessarily want to back yourself in, depending upon what the specific needs are. You've gotten that right.Every common criticism that I have about pricing, you folks have gotten right. And I definitely can pick up on your fingerprints on a lot of this. Because it sounds like a weird thing to say of, “Well, he's the Director of Community, why would he weigh in on pricing?” It's, “I don't think you understand what community is when you ask that question.”Richard: Yes, I fully agree. It's super important to get pricing right, or to get many things right. And usually the things which just feel naturally correct are the ones which took the most effort and the most time and everything. And yes, at least from the—like, I was in those conversations or part of them, and the one thing which was always clear is when we say it's free, it must be free. When we say it is forever free, it must be forever free. No games, no lies, do what you say and say what you do. Basically.We have things where initially you get certain pro features and you can keep paying and you can keep using them, or after X amount of time they go away. Things like these are built in because that's what people want. They want to play around with the whole thing and see, hey, is this actually providing me value? Do I want to pay for this feature which is nice or this and that plugin or what have you? And yeah, you're also absolutely right that once you leave these constraints of basically self-serve cloud, you are talking about bespoke deals, but you're also talking about okay, let's sit down, let's actually understand what your business is: what are your business problems? What are you going to solve today? What are you trying to solve tomorrow?Let us find a way of actually supporting you and invest into a mutual partnership and not just grab the money and run. We have extremely low churn for, I would say, pretty good reasons. Because this thing about our users, our customers being successful, we do take it extremely seriously.Corey: It's one of those areas that I just can't shake the feeling is underappreciated industry-wide. And the reason I say that this is your fingerprints on it is because if this had been wrong, you have a lot of… we'll call them idiosyncrasies, where there are certain things you absolutely will not stand for, and misleading people and tricking them into paying money is high on that list. One of the reasons we're friends. So yeah, but I say I see your fingerprints on this, it's yeah, if this hadn't been worked out the way that it is, you would not still be there. One other thing that I wanted to call out about, well, I guess it's a confluence of pricing and logging in the rest, I look at your free tier, and it offers up to 50 gigabytes of ingest a month.And it's easy for me to sit here and compare that to other services, other tools, and other logging stories, and then I have to stop and think for a minute that yeah, discs have gotten way bigger, and internet connections have gotten way faster, and even the logs have gotten way wordier. I still am not sure that most people can really contextualize just how much logging fits into 50 gigs of data. Do you have any, I guess, ballpark examples of what that looks like? Because it's been long enough since I've been playing in these waters that I can't really contextualize it anymore.Richard: Lord of the Rings is roughly five megabytes. It's actually less. So, we're talking literally 10,000 Lord of the Rings, which you can just shove in us and we're just storing this for you. Which also tells you that you're not going to be reading any of this. Or some of it, yes, but not all of it. You need better tooling and you need proper tooling.And some of this is more modern. Some of this is where we actually pushed the state of the art. But I'm also biased. But I, for myself, do claim that we did push the state of the art here. But at the same time you come back to those absolute fundamentals of how humans deal with data.If you look back basically as far as we have writing—literally 6000 years ago, is the oldest writing—humans have always dealt with information with the state of the world in very specific ways. A, is it important enough to even write it down, to even persist it in whatever persistence mechanisms I have at my disposal? If yes, write a detailed account or record a detailed account of whatever the thing is. But it turns out, this is expensive and it's not what you need. So, over time, you optimize towards only taking down key events and only noting key events. Maybe with their interconnections, but fundamentally, the key events.As your data grows, as you have more stuff, as this still is important to your business and keeps being more important to—or doesn't even need to be a business; can be social, can be whatever—whatever thing it is, it becomes expensive, again, to retain all of those key events. So, you turn them into numbers and you can do actual math on them. And that's this path which you've seen again, and again, and again, and again, throughout humanity's history. Literally, as long as we have written records, this has played out again, and again, and again, and again, for every single field which humans actually cared about. At different times, like, power networks are way ahead of this, but fundamentally power networks work on metrics, but for transient load spike, and everything, they have logs built into their power measurement devices, but those are only far in between. Of course, the main thing is just metrics, time-series. And you see this again, and again.You also were sysadmin in internet-related all switches have been metrics-based or metrics-first for basically forever, for 20, 30 years. But that stands to reason. Of course the internet is running at by roughly 20 years scale-wise in front of the cloud because obviously you need the internet because as you wouldn't be having a cloud. So, all of those growing pains why metrics are all of a sudden the thing, “Or have been for a few years now,” is basically, of course, people who were writing software, providing their own software services, hit the scaling limitations which you hit for Internet service providers two decades, three decades ago. But fundamentally, you have this complete system. Basically profiles or distributed tracing depending on how you view distributed tracing.You can also argue that distributed tracing is key events which are linked to each other. Logs sit firmly in the key event thing and then you turn this into numbers and that is metrics. And that's basically it. You have extremes at the and where you can have valid, depending on your circumstances, engineering trade-offs of where you invest the most, but fundamentally, that is why those always appear again in humanity's dealing with data, and observability is no different.Corey: I take a look at last month's AWS bill. Mine is pretty well optimized. It's a bit over 500 bucks. And right around 150 of that is various forms of logging and detecting change in the environment. And on the one hand, I sit here, and I think, “Oh, I should optimize that,” because the value of those logs to me is zero.Except that whenever I have to go in and diagnose something or respond to an incident or have some forensic exploration, they then are worth an awful lot. And I am prepared to pay 150 bucks a month for that because the potential value of having that when the time comes is going to be extraordinarily useful. And it basically just feels like a tax on top of what it is that I'm doing. The same thing happens with application observability where, yeah, when you just want the big substantial stuff, yeah, until you're trying to diagnose something. But in some cases, yeah, okay, then crank up the verbosity and then look for it.But if you're trying to figure it out after an event that isn't likely or hopefully won't recur, you're going to wish that you spent a little bit more on collecting data out of it. You're always going to be wrong, you're always going to be unhappy, on some level.Richard: Ish. You could absolutely be optimizing this. I mean, for $500, it's probably not worth your time unless you take it as an exercise, but outside of due diligence where you need specific logs tied to—or specific events tied to specific times, I would argue that a lot of the problems with logs is just dealing with it wrong. You have this one extreme of full-text indexing everything, and you have this other extreme of a data lake—which is just a euphemism of never looking at the data again—to keep storage vendors happy. There is an in between.Again, I'm biased, but like for example, with Loki, you have those same label sets as you have on your metrics with Prometheus, and you have literally the same, which means you only index that part and you only extract on ingestion time. If you don't have structured logs yet, only put the metadata about whatever you care about extracted and put it into your label set and store this, and that's the only thing you index. But it goes further than just this. You can also turn those logs into metrics.And to me this is a path of optimization. Where previously I logged this and that error. Okay, fine, but it's just a log line telling me it's HTTP 500. No one cares that this is at this precise time. Log levels are also basically an anti-pattern because they're just trying to deal with the amount of data which I have, and try and get a handle on this on that level whereas it would be much easier if I just counted every time I have an HTTP 500, I just up my counter by one. And again, and again, and again.And all of a sudden, I have literally—and I did the math on this—over 99.8% of the data which I have to store just goes away. It's just magic the way—and we're only talking about the first time I'm hitting this logline. The second time I'm hitting this logline is functionally free if I turn this into metrics. It becomes cheap enough that one of the mantras which I have, if you need to onboard your developers on modern observability, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, the whole bells and whistles, usually people have logs, like that's what they have, unless they were from ISPs or power companies, or so; there they usually start with metrics.But most users, which I see both with my Grafana and with my Prometheus [unintelligible 00:38:46] tend to start with logs. They have issues with those logs because they're basically unstructured and useless and you need to first make them useful to some extent. But then you can leverage on this and instead of having a debug statement, just put a counter. Every single time you think, “Hey, maybe I should put a debug statement,” just put a counter instead. In two months time, see if it was worth it or if you delete that line and just remove that counter.It's so much cheaper, you can just throw this on and just have it run for a week or a month or whatever timeframe and done. But it goes beyond this because all of a sudden, if I can turn my logs into metrics properly, I can start rewriting my alerts on those metrics. I can actually persist those metrics and can more aggressively throw my logs away. But also, I have this transition made a lot easier where I don't have this huge lift, where this day in three months is to be cut over and we're going to release the new version of this and that software and it's not going to have that, it's going to have 80% less logs and everything will be great and then you missed the first maintenance window or someone is ill or what have you, and then the next Big Friday is coming so you can't actually deploy there. I mean Black Friday. But we can also talk about deploying on Fridays.But the thing is, you have this huge thing, whereas if you have this as a continuous improvement process, I can just look at, this is the log which is coming out. I turn this into a number, I start emitting metrics directly, and I see that those numbers match. And so, I can just start—I build new stuff, I put it into a new data format, I actually emit the new data format directly from my code instrumentation, and only then do I start removing the instrumentation for the logs. And that allows me to, with full confidence, with psychological safety, just move a lot more quickly, deliver much more quickly, and also cut down on my costs more quickly because I'm just using more efficient data types.Corey: I really want to thank you for spending as much time as you have. If people want to learn more about how you view the world and figure out what other personal attacks they can throw your way, where's the best place for them to find you?Richard: Personal attacks, probably Twitter. It's, like, the go-to place for this kind of thing. For actually tracking, I stopped maintaining my own website. Maybe I'll do again, but if you go on github.com/ritchieh/talks, you'll find a reasonably up-to-date list of all the talks, interviews, presentations, panels, what have you, which I did over the last whatever amount of time. [laugh].Corey: And we will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:41:23]. Thanks again for your time. It's always appreciated.Richard: And thank you.Corey: Richard Hartmann, Director of Community at Grafana Labs. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment. And then when someone else comes along with an insulting comment they want to add, we'll just increment the counter by one.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Richard Emmons - Publisher and Editor at Josephine County Eagle, Author, and Marketing Strategist Josephine County Eagle (JoCo Eagle) Richard Emmons is a local business owner and marketing strategist. The author of three books, Marketing Survival Guide, Chamber Advantage, and 52 Things to do in Southern Oregon. From serving on the board of the Gospel Rescue Mission for 21 years, to being named Man of the Year by the Grants Pass and Josephine County Chamber of Commerce, Richard has been an active member of our community for years. On top of all that, he's launched a new monthly newspaper called, Josephine County Eagle. Join us as we take a fun journey through Richard's travels in life, and his new project with JoCo Eagle! Active In The Local Community Away from the Rat Race! Our Move to Grants Pass What Makes Josephine County Special A Joy Helping and Sharing with others through, The Gospel Rescue Mission 20 Year Windows: Richard's Entrepreneurial Journey Why Richard Became an Author of 3 Books Chamber Advantage: Get Involved, Get Known & Get Business Why I Started the Josephine County Eagle COVID-19 Lockdown's Impact on Our Community: We Can't Forget This! JoCo Eagle: It's About Bringing People Together Thank You: Early Positive Responses to The Josephine County Eagle 2021 & Beyond The Value of Persistence To get in touch with Richard and to find out what's new with JoCo Eagle, checkout the links below! Richard Emmons - https://richardemmons.com/ Josephine County Eagle - https://jocoeagle.com/ Transcription Intro Brian: Tell me if I'm wrong. What I'm getting from you is that in your entire discussion of what the Josephine County Eagle means to you, it's more about bringing people together instead of dividing people, you know, instead of dividing us between the city and county, instead of dividing us between Republican, Democrats have divided us between business owner and employees. You're trying to bring people together to understand each other more, to understand each other's perspective more, is am I getting that right? Richard: Dead on. I mean, yes, we have differences. The old saying, learn to disagree agreeably, in some ways we have to learn to agree agreeably. Podcast Intro: There's a place in Southern Oregon, filled with gorgeous natural beauty, friendly yet independent people and a mild, comfortable climate. That place is called Grants Pass. These are the stories of the people that live and work Josephine County. These are the movers and shakers that make this place of the best. This is Grants Pass VIP. Brian: Richard Emmons is a local business owner and marketing strategist. He's the author of three books, Marketing Survival Guide, Chamber Advantage, and 52 Things to do in Southern Oregon. Richard served on the board of the Gospel Rescue Mission for 21 years. In 2014, he was named Man of the Year by Grants Pass and the Josephine County Chamber of Commerce. He lived in Rogue Valley with his wife, Kathleen and family since 1998. On top of all that, Richard is the publisher and editor of the brand new Josephine County Eagle. Richard Edmonds, welcome to Grants Pass VIP. Richard: Hey, Brian, thanks for having me on. It's great to be here. great talking to you. Brian: We've met on and off through the years, and I've always wanted to get to know you a little bit better. So this is a great chance to be able to dig in further. First, just off the bat, other than what we heard from your bio, how would people know you possibly for people within the county? Richard: You know, it's funny, it depends on how they view me. Because, you know, through the chamber, I've represented one business for a long time, The Boardroom and Executive Suite. So they see me as Mr. Boardroom. Other people see me as a longtime member of the Gospel Rescue Mission. Some people see me just at church,

Welcome to another edition of the Business Owner Elevation podcast! Today, we are delighted to have another expert on our show. A best-selling author of the Escape The Owner Prison: The Contractors new way to scale, regain control, and fast track growth while loving life, we have Richard Walsh. Richard is a very talented man who is also a speaker, business coach, and host of the ETOP podcast. He also created ETOP Academy where business owners can learn how to profitably scale their business without sacrificing income, family life, and freedom to what they really want.  The interview started as Richard explained what death grip in terms of business. It is doing and controlling everything in your business without proper delegation of work. Our host Leon, also got his fair share of experience when he started to have a coach at the age of 28. He also then asked Richard, what should be the first thing to do to escape the death grip where Richard gladly answered that as a business owner, you have to look at the organization or the people within. Then, ask yourself what really burdens you as a business owner and you have to start learning to get other people to do things better than you do. Start delegating work to lighten your burden as a business owner. Richard also shared his highs and lows in business and some of his realizations. When he started to look back at what were the steps that caused him to fail, he realized that he doesn't have any exit strategy. Want to know more about this? Stay tuned and as we unravel some experiences that made us who we really are today. Join us as we share more tips that will help you in leading your business to success. Enjoy! Here are a few insights you'll hear in today's podcast show What is a Death Grip? The first step on how to escape the death grip The importance of knowing your burden How Richard survived the tough times as a business owner What is an exit strategy?  The importance of preparations in your business   Success Quotes “And you have to start learning to get other people who do things better than you do in those positions. You got to get them on the team.” -Richard “The more I've developed myself, you know, the personal development and growth of my businesses, the more I realized to let go, and like you say, start employing your first person.” -Leon “There's a lot of little things in business that you need to have in place to survive the tough times.” -Richard “Everything comes to an end. Unless you're prepared.” -Richard “You have to build a business as attractive to a buyer. Otherwise, you're just going to close the door, lock it for the last time and throw away the key.” -Richard “The biggest thing is to be willing to accept help.” -Richard “I learned not to have my identity in my business.” -Richard   Resources THE 7 HABITS OF HIGHLY EFFECTIVE PEOPLE -Stephen R. Covey   Connect with Richard Website Facebook Email   Connect with Leon Youtube Facebook Website Instagram   

Richard Maxwell has created and runs one of the most unique and inspiring creative musical arts and sciences program in the nation. For me, it reminds me of the entry level sound recording program I went through in college, only Richard's students get into the creative process early because of what he had the guts to create. This program happens in an area of the school campus where they have their own section of rooms that is their facility. It's made up of a larger classroom if you will that doubles as a performance room plus they have 15 Pro Tools stations and Pro Tools running in their A and B recording studios. They learn how to be expressive without fear of judgement, they write songs, they mutually assist and critique each others work in a helpful, loving way and it's magical to see what happens on a daily basis. Richard is a loving, caring person who, by his own efforts and fortitude, has created a platform where he can give the students, his very best in regards to guidance, ideas and processes.If you love music, talking about music, the process of making music, what music looks like in today's world, interested in how music could be handled in schools or always wondered how a single person can make a huge change in our education system, these episodes split into Part 1 and Part 2, are for you! Enjoy, share and spread the musical love. ********** Richard Maxwell's Links: Richard's Website: https://sites.google.com/view/richardmaxwell CMAS Program: https://sites.google.com/view/arcadiacmas YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaxwellMusic/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.maxwell.3538 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rchrdmxwll/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/rchrdmxwll LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-maxwell-235ab513/ https://youtu.be/wtg_TV3j_wA ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Part 1 – Richard Maxwell Interview: Richard: Basically on a whim. A weird situation develops. And I get a phone call from the then band teacher of all things at Arcadia. This is the late 90s, I'm giving away my age a little bit, I suppose, but we didn't know each other directly, but he had also gone to U of A at one point. And we've heard of each other and for a variety reasons, it just wasn't happy in Tucson. And he says, "Hey, I have a situation, would you be interested in moving up to teach here at Arcadia? [Richard] "Sure!" [He says] "You want to know what the gig is?" [Richard] "Not really" So we're three weeks into the school year at this point. So I come up and I spent a day with him at the school getting a sense for what it is and I walk away thinking, ok, this could be kind of cool. I want the orchestra too. Because that's where my love was, so, I, I meet the principal, great guy, Jim Lee. And he hires me and in the conversation I said, "Look, I'm so excited for it," it's like a first real, it's a big gig for me, it's a huge thing. And it's I'm going to, you know, bigger city, better music town, I'm thinking all these different things, but I tell him, like, "I know the orchestra teachers a couple years from retiring, I want writer first refusal." And he's, you know, whatever, but he, he agrees, thinking probably I'll forget and I can remember a long interview process, with parents and everybody else. Basically what happens is, is after my first year, a couple of things happened that kind of get things a little weird. So I'm still trying to do my own thing in the world of regular music but I don't know enough about the Phoenix music scene at the time I was trying to hold down this job, that is awesome but kind of beaten me up just because I'm new at it. So I make a whole bunch of changes, you know, he had a very, very big jazz program, which is awesome! I love jazz, but as a director, which I don't like the word director, if it makes me feel like a traffic cop, if I can still want to Greg's themes, but I didn't that wasn't where I wanted to be. So I morphed into more like wind ensembles and we ended some pretty heavy stuff. And there's a bit of a love hate with it, but you can see like the level of musicianship. And I'm like everybody who's gonna read notes, like we're not playing games with this, lot of wrote stuff, a lot of, you know, play it based on your, you know, improvising skills, which is fine and you need to do that as well. But I had a certain level standards and I was still pretty, pretty much full of my own brilliance at that point. I mean, let's not kid ourselves. Joe: And this Richard: And Joe: Was just band at this point. Richard: Was that Joe: Was this just Richard: This Joe: Band Richard: Is band Joe: At Richard: This Joe: This Richard: Is that Joe: Point? Richard: First Joe: Ok. Richard: Year. Joe: Ok. Richard: So the second year, two things happen. One is Jim, I guess, decides the principle that I must not have completely destroyed things. And he comes to me and says, "Look, we have this opportunity to expand your contract. We don't have a choir teacher anymore. Can you take over the choir?" I very foolishly said Joe: Well. Richard: "Yes!" It was bad idea, it  was a bad idea for the kids. It was bad idea for I mean, it was just bad. It was. It was. It was. It was well-intentioned... if had that opportunity now, because I do a lot of stuff with a lot of vocalists now, now I could do it and do it comfortably and make that experience significant in a way for those kids that they would be glad, I think that they had it, not then! Oh, my gosh, not even not, I mean, like, literally, I want you to imagine the worst possible experience for those students and then be grateful if they would have had even half of that level of a caliber of experience. I mean, it was, it was, it was horrible. But the other thing he asks me to do is take over the guitar class slash club. Because Joe: Interesting. Richard: He knows that I gig a little bad and I do the singer-songwriter thing a little bit and the studio stuff a little bit, he knows I have these other interests, but he doesn't really know to what extent. And you know, I'm not responsible basically anybody but myself in terms of my time at that point. I don't have any real you know, why not? And it's money and and it's a gig and I like the school and I like the people there and I like the community and da a da a da. So "Sure, why not?" So I take on this whole thing and basically what happens is, things start to build and eventually you wind up with, you know, I have two full symphony orchestras, winds, strings, percussion, all in the same rehearsal hall every day, all year round. We're still doing a marching band, while my version of marching band, which I have been justifiably criticized many times, I'm not a marching band guy, I'm a, I mean, I love the art of it. But I was I like, you know, one year we wrote our own show, the kids and you know, one year, you know, we were doing crazy, we were, it was just nuts, it was you know, they wanted to do rock shows the last two years. And I was kind of moving away from that because I you know, you just you know what you know and you know what you are Joe: Yep, Richard: Or what you're not. Joe: Yep. Richard: So I was like, okay, we'll do rock shows, but if we're going to do rock shows, you don't need a conductor, that's where literally we're wasting a ah resource, right? So, so we had a drum line, our drum line became our click track, screwed up everything in our scores because you didn't get a caption award and you didn't get points, they deducted points for not having a drum major. Joe: WOW! Richard: So it killed our scores. But musically, I think those kids benefited from that. Because that sense of internal clock and time and how you synchronize and what that does to intonation and every other musical element you can think of. I mean, all the things that you as a very seasoned studio player, let alone all your live work when you're sitting there in the control room, listening to playback on that and you're going, you know, because somebody can't...you know, Joe: Yeah, Richard: I know, you know, but Joe: Sometimes Richard: But Joe: It's me, Richard: well... Joe: So I do know. Richard: I doubt it. No, seriously. But my point is, is that, that, that was sort of where things started to change up a little bit. The guitar program is growing crazy. Some Joe: Still Richard: In Joe: To Richard: Some Joe: This Richard: Ways Joe: Day, Richard: Because it Joe: Are then. Richard: This is then Joe: Then Richard: This is Joe: Ok. Richard: Then. So we've got the orchestra building. We've got you know, there's Joe: A Richard: Now there's Joe: Wind Richard: Piano, Joe: Dancer. Richard: There's, you know, everything's building up and we've got songwriting I introduce because for me I've always been kind of a cool you play an instrument, what can you make with it. Well but it's the clarinet. I don't care, what can you make with it? You know, I don't, it doesn't matter to me. So guitar to me, you know, the first year or two was very much about just technique and then I got very much in to, I don't, I don't care about this technique. Let's write songs, let's make music. And it just so it seems kind of going and going, going and eventually it just, the circumstances are such, that there's basically too much to do for one person or even two people. My oldest son, who came in a minute ago, was born without going too far, but he was born 10 weeks early. And he's obviously, you saw he's fine. But at the time and I'm like, I need a change. I've been at Arcadia at that point for nine years. Joe: You Richard: There Joe: Basically Richard: Is a point. Joe: Have said yes to every single thing they've asked you to do. Richard: Well, Joe: Ok. Richard: But I've also enjoyed the challenge. I mean Joe: Right. Richard: I mean, the truth is, is I enjoy the challenge. I'll tell you, this is heading to something that you're probably going to go either think, WOW!, that's really cool or are you out of your mind or possibly both. But in any case, we, you know, there's an opportunity, that our principal has changed, and we have Anne-Marie Woolsey, Dr. Woolsey is there. And I start talking about this idea. And the idea is why, I'm starting to really and maybe it's just because of my own state of mind, but we're doing all these things with, you know, we have what we call the songwriters and we have the more traditional ensembles, it's not CMAS yet, but it's in its early stages of existing. And I'm actually still, I have I have a couple of now what I would say close friends that are graduates from that time who are incredibly supportive people you might even talk to, you just like, like I'm like, so I'll just, local guys like Thomas Brennaman and Alex Fry and Zach Tonkin and there's a ton of them, there's a ton, Ed Bakerman, Addie. She's still gigging all the time all over the country, she's brilliant. I mean, there's, there's, there's a ton of these people, but Joe: And Richard: They're Joe: This Richard: On one Joe: Is late, Richard: Side of. Joe: This is late. Richard: This is this is still within those nine years. Joe: Right. So this would be since you started there. Richard: This is like 08, 07, 08 kind Joe: Right. Richard: Of thing. Joe: Right. OK. Richard: And I am starting to get and it's just kind of I think it's a culmination of things. Most music teachers at a school are, you know, the average is less than five years, I'm at nine, which isn't like good or bad, it just kind of is what it is. But I'm also really struggling. I realize now in retrospect with this dual musical experience, because you know, this is at a time where these devices are starting to come of age, streaming is starting to become a thing and on and on. And you, I just, other people have phrased it so much better than I have but just this idea that the kids, it's done in their rehearsal and they explore all this music, but then as soon as the rehearsals over, they're going home and what are they listening to? Everything but what they're rehearsing. Joe: Right. Richard: And I understand the argument of well, but that's why you need to have those ensembles and do, and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. But fundamentally, there's something missing, if you are, if you, if the real world has one opportunity and the educational world has one that is completely diametrically opposed to that. And we're talking about something that ultimately comes down to a cultural element, a tell your story, if you will, element, which is what I think all art really comes down to. And that's being effectively either ignored or dismissed or in many cases, I would say, mutated into something that basically makes somebody feel, makes a student feel like somehow their musical instincts are either, I don't know, at best immature. But, you know, you talk about a terrible amount of disenfranchisement and disenfranchisement, you're talking about a terrible amount of just not, they think, they feel like it's not legit, like they're not legitimate somehow, that's their choice, you Joe: Right. Richard: Know, or we don't do that here, kid, that kind of thing. Joe: There's a misalignment. Richard: Yeah, and Joe: It's Richard: It doesn't Joe: Just weird. Richard: Mean anything if you walk the logic through, it doesn't make any sense. And yet, it is still essentially perpetrated across the world and a lot of ways, and I just was like, got to do something, now I, you could argue I went too far to the extreme and I regret but, you know, for all the things we've accomplished and all the things that we've done and, you know, the program is basically now I said, okay, look, I've got all these songwriters, we've got this, this is what I've become kind of like an industry history class. We've got the guitar players. You know, we had the pianist. We've got, we, we have this contemporary thing happening anyway. So I went to the principal and I basically said, "Can I just walk away from the band and orchestra part?" It's become, you know, "It's just not me anymore the way we'd like it to be," the politics with the parents and everything else is getting sick, I was just tired Joe: Yes. Richard: Of it. I don't do well with it anyway. That's why, I just, I'm just, I'm very confrontation adverse. It's just, just naturally. And then you get into like high school band and orchestra parent land, with all due respect and it just wasn't, it wasn't gonna be, I wasn't gonna last long without losing my mind. Plus again, Grayson, ten weeks early. So I held on for one more year and I remember very clearly that last concert we did, you know, the good, the farewell symphony, the Haydn at the, as the last piece. And I remember choreographing it and nobody knew about what I was doing, except for my very good friend, who's still my good friend, the theater teacher who was running the lights for us in the on the stage and the head of the school security who's still there, Jeri Eshelman. I told the two of them what I was gonna do, and that was it. Go through the whole concert, do the whole senior recognition thing, the whole thank you's and all of it and then we do, traditionally, we would do one last song. We do the one last song which the farewell symphony, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with, but literally the way Haydn wrote it was that as it's ending, the players get up and leave the stage until eventually Joe: Right. Richard: Not Joe: Right. Richard: Even the conductor is there and it's just I believe it's just the single first violinist if I remember right. So we did that and I added one element. I walked off the stage and very quietly walked out the stage door to my car and went home. Joe: Of course you did. Richard: I just left. It's kind of rude, I suppose. Joe: It's awesome! Richard: But, but, but it is. Joe: And you're still there Richard: Yes. Joe: And you're still employed by that school. Richard: I am, I am, but doing something very different. And it has been, I mean, you know, we could have an entire series of podcasts on the politics of what has gone on. Joe: Oh, Richard: It has Joe: I Richard: Been. Joe: Can Richard: It's Joe: Only imagine. Richard: It's been. I used to get really angry about it. I still am frustrated by it at times. But now I'm more like, I don't, I'm almost more entertained. Because there are too many people now that like yourself who are seasoned industry professionals or their education professionals, who see the concept of what what we've built there and very specifically say that concept is important and vital and necessary so that, you know, you get enough music education, professors and universities and like I said, actual, real in the industry, people saying this is what should happen. And all the arguments become a little bit silly after a while. So now Joe: Yup. Richard: I'm just kind of like, really? You want to line up, you know, your cynical view against of, forget me, you're going to tell all these other people they're wrong!? Joe: Yeah. Richard: WOW! Even in my most arrogant, I wasn't going to do that. So it is what it is. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it has evolved a lot. I mean, you know, if you look at the setup and even now, I mean, obviously with the closure, Joe: But Richard: Things are different. Joe: Wait, Richard: But. Joe: Before you get past this, so you, you, you state you said you were gonna do one more year. Richard: This is the end of that year. Joe: Ok. Richard: So this is the end of that year. So I basically, you know, and, you know, I made several mistakes, big ones! One of them was, the then head of the district's fine arts and I've talked to Anne Marie since about this and she agrees that she should never have agreed to this. Basically said, ok, we'll support you doing this, but you have to stay away from your old program because you're still going to be on campus and the new teacher needs the opportunity, because, because that kind of community of students is it's a, it's a very family kind of thing. Well, what happened is it became very confrontational between the two programs. My new program is the new "IT." The new teacher is struggling for a lot of different reasons. Put in a situation that she cannot possibly succeed in. You know, imagine being a young teacher and they give you a class of band, a class of orchestra that they've separated now, you have a percussion ensemble, you have a piano class, I think she had a computer class, I mean, it was literally like we're giving you all of the leftovers. It was Joe: Yes. Richard: It was a terrible gig. Nobody is going to do well in that situation under any circumstances, period. It's just. Joe: Right. Richard: A nightmare scenario. But what winds up happening is it creates a lot of friction and a lot of confrontation. And I again, I am so committed to, we have to prove that this thing should exist because I like in my gut, I know it should but I don't have proof of concept yet. There's nobody doing it at a high school, the way I wanted to do it, you know, there was, there were programs that I had found it, then maybe, maybe this is more my inability at the time to search Google effectively. But, you know, you had people doing production. Absolutely! You had the technical side of it and you had people having like composition classes or songwriting classes, even rock band classes or whatever they call them. But I wasn't finding anybody that was looking at it in a more homogenous way, in a more holistic way of it needs to all be, it's all of it, you know. And so I was kind of starting from scratch. I took a lot of college curriculum. I talked to a lot of people that were in the industry and just kind of threw things against the wall to see what would stick. But in those early years, as I'm getting, you know, all these criticisms and destroying this, you know, you're killing the orig...you know, the traditional program, all these things that are provably false and everything else. But that reputation did build for quite a while and I I was like constantly biting my tongue because, again, you know, if I could avoid the confrontation and put it off for Joe: Yeah, Richard: A little while, I'd rather do that bad habit. Don't you know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Kids don't do that if you're listening, don't do that! But I know, so I just, I really I struggle with that a lot. But we kept building things and one of the things that I saw, a couple of things that I've discovered in all of this, which is that, kind of like what I was saying earlier about the shows we did even during the COVID closure, that are very imperfect. If you, if you were to sit down and look at those shows that we did just these last several weeks, you could be arguably disappointed in a lot of there's, there's glitches and sound and some other things like but this is not what, don't you deal with audio and all this other stuff? But that wasn't really the point. And so we would have we have shows and in some shows there's people that are like, wow, you put that act onstage? Really? I'm like, yeah, is that kid now has been on stage and now we can move from there. Process has to matter more. I get in the professional world why it can't on some level but at the same time, boy, I wish it could. I'm Joe: Yeah, Richard: Sure you do too. And a Joe: Yeah. Richard: Lot of ways just knowing you, you know, I mean, you don't, you get duplication and you get repeats and you get even a certain level of perfection, but you don't get real originality unless you're willing to deal with process over product. I mean, you have to really embrace it. You know, Little Richard just died, as you know and it really, I mean, aside from I mean, is there anybody he did not influence in some way? I mean, literally, the man's legacy is endless. The other thing that kind of is horrible to say, but we're getting to a point where we are going to be out of truly original musicians, truly innovative people, there are very few people and I'm not even saying it's an age thing, it's just who's out there doing things that you go, WOW!, I've never heard that before in that context. And they're just, you know, there's a lot people perfecting it. There's a lot of people doing incredibly viable things and wonderful things musically. But to truly be innovative like that. But anyway, I'm so sorry I get Joe: No Richard: On tangents. I'm Joe: Better. Richard: So sorry Joe: It's okay. Richard: He I'm so, so, so this idea of, you know, process becomes really, really important and we're building it. And then. And what I was gonna say is, is that. Joe: But at this point, I'm trying to just make sure that both the viewers and listeners and I'm clear, though, that that you have this woman who is now responsible for these various things like band and orchestra and whatever else she was given that you have now been given the license, you know, the stamp of approval by the principal or Richard: And the district. Joe: The Richard: Yeah, Joe: District Richard: Yeah. Joe: To create this program that involves what at that time? Richard: Ok. So I you know, I'm sorry. Thank you for pulling back. So there actually is another player, analyst named Mitch Simmons, who needs to be mentioned. He is the director of the district's what's called Career and Technical Education Department at the time. And Mitch is brilliant and wonderful and will self-described himself as not having a musical bone in his body. But when I made this absurd proposal to him and I gave him like a 20 page document, like I had a curriculum and I had standards that I had adapted and which later wound up becoming basically the first draft that the state used and is still using for a lot of, a lot of things. Thankfully, they've had other people come in and perfect them and not just be stuck with my mediocrity, but. But Mitch, Mitch looked at and he goes, we so need this, this is the bridge, we've been looking for the bridge. Arts and here's the thing, everybody looks at career technical education, they get so hung up on the t the technology part. That's, in my view, as I get a lot, I get on a lot trouble with actually CTE people. I get, I get in trouble with the arts people for one thing and then I get in trouble for CTE people with the other. The "T" is, is completely to me, is nearly, it needs to be like lower case and in the smallest font possible. It's the "C" it's the career part. Joe: Right. Richard: Where's the job? Mitch saw it even better, like I understood, like it was my idea. But he saw other things in it and he's like "You", he's like, "Oh, my gosh, we can get, kids could get jobs in these industries." I'm like, "Yeah, we could!" And he gave me, I was, it was a perfect storm. He gave me the flexibility to just screw it up and rework it and reiterate it and retry and my principal did the same thing. And coming back to these shows that we had done, I told you I knew I would loop around back to my tangent. One Joe: And Richard: Of the Joe: This Richard: Things Joe: Is still Richard: That I. Joe: 2009. Richard: We're Joe: Is Richard: Still Joe: This Richard: In 2009, Joe: Ok? Richard: But Joe: Ok. Richard: It relates to something that just happened in the last few weeks. When you have students go through a process where we start with essentially nothing and they go through a self derived process or a self adapted process at the very least and then at the end there's a thing. I don't care what that thing is, that is powerful and wonderful and awesome and so that when you have like we would have shows, we still sometimes have shows that are just like, oh, you got to be kidding me. Because underneath that, there's also the, you've got to be kidding me! Joe: Yeah. Richard: Like, I mean, it works in both directions because it's derived and, and one of the things that I've learned is, teachers and educators who live exclusively and vicariously through their students are doomed to get burned out, frustrated and every other negative you can possibly think of. And I, I am committed to that completely. I don't think you can be competitive and creative at the same time. I believe that is like one of my very big mantras. I think that, you have to be your own creative, like I have struggled a lot, like, like thank God for therapy a lot, with not feeling like I've been able to do my own creative stuff. And I've sort of over the last year and it's been a struggle, it's made this year very weird and very difficult in some ways to say, like wait, I need to find a way to have my own creative outlet because it's not healthy. Like, it just isn't healthy. And whether that creative outlet is me throwing a video up on YouTube or a song up on SoundCloud that four people listened to or four million people listened to is kind of not really the issue. But that, we go from nothing through the process that a thing exists. It's all, it all ties together in this weird Zen ying yang thing. But as we grow, you know, we start doing all kinds of live events. We are, you know, we start very cobbled together. The early parts of the program in the early versions of the program, I didn't let the kids record anything in the first year. It was all learn an instrument. Keeps Joe: Did you even Richard: Them. Joe: Have the equipment Richard: Oh, yeah. Joe: That early? Richard: I mean, it was it wasn't what we have now. Don't Joe: No. Richard: Get me Joe: But Richard: Wrong. Joe: But you went Richard: Yeah. Joe: In there and you said, I need this, this, this, this and this to make this happen. Richard: So we started they got me a bunch of iMacs and we got some interfaces and we got Pro Tools early on because I know we're gonna do it for real and I was very committed to the legitimacy. Overcommitted, possibly, that I allowed other things to suffer. That battle that I know, the politics of things that I allowed myself to fall into the traps of these circular logic arguments that now I would never allow myself to do but, you know. Joe: Guy. Richard: Past is behind us and what's been has been, you know, that is what it is, but. But we just kept evolving and it's still evolves and, you know, we've we've, we've gone so far, as you know, there were years, the marching band kind of fell into a state of disarray and almost non-existence for several years. We started playing all of the home games, kind of like mini Super Bowls. Literally wheeling stages out and putting together shows for that. We still do them once a year. The marching band is back and is now for the last several years, like wins every award on the planet, literally. And God love them for it. It's amazing! Not my, you know, but that wasn't me. And that needs to be ok. I have some people that are still mad at me about that too, but whatever I don't, you know. But we, you know, we can go into studios, we go into every couple of years now we've been going to Blackbird Studios in Nashville this is like, in Nashville. This is a multi-million dollar facility. The last time we were there in February, just before all the closure happened, we were, I mean this is how far the things have evolved, this is possibly the greatest, I've gotten a lot of big compliments and they all mean a lot to me. We befriended Steve Marcantonio because he's the uncle of one of my former students. I don't know if you know, forgive the namedrop but Steve, I mean, like he got his start on John Lennon's last album. What, I mean, so you mean he's, the man knows his stuff! He's a genius and the nicest guy in the world. Like, like unbelievably giving of his time. He has come in and produced our sessions at or engineered our sessions at Blackbird and supervised them while we're there. So we're like one of the greatest recording spaces on the planet with one of the most gifted engineers to ever live and it's a bunch of high school students and me. Joe: That's amazing. Richard: Yeah. Life, Joe: How many Richard: Eight life. Joe: How many go to that trip? Richard: We took like 25 or so, this time 30. Joe: And how do you how do they get chosen? Richard: They just decide they want to go. Joe: Ok. Richard: We make it through tax credit. I have, I'm not going to do the cookie dough thing. I'm just not going to. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Hey, I just I can't do it, but and it's expensive and it sucks and we try to scholarship where we can, Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know, we don't take nearly as many. But, but it's an opportunity. We do other things, we go to the conservatory recording arts and sciences. I'm looking at doing more. There's a lot of great stuff here in Phoenix for that opportunity Joe: Right. Richard: Or similar opportunities. But there is something cool about it, I mean, Nashville is Nashville. Let's not kid ourselves. It's just it's a great if Joe: Get. Richard: I could move anywhere and know I could still make a living, Joe: Yeah. Richard: I'd totally I'd totally being Nashville. I Joe: Yeah. Richard: Just. What a great place! But what you say is, is that this is this, this, this is unbelievable to me. So Steve walks in and he's giving the students an orientation and he's talking about all this gear and he gets about two minutes into it and then he looks at me and then he looks at them and he literally goes, "What? I'm wasting our time, your kids already know all this!" Because he's like talking Joe: Nice. Richard: About how, like the studios are set up and everything else. Ok, so that's not even the biggest compliment. We start getting everything set up and the boards placed and you know, Blackbird's provided interns and these are very highly skilled professionals and we've got Steve, ok? I have a couple of my more experienced students, one in particular who's she's like, I don't even think she's five feet tall, she's a graduating senior. She's just really quiet, sweet little girl, Emma. And she's up at the board and he just walks away. Like, not like I'm quitting, he walks away and he leans over to me and goes, "You don't need me." Joe: What's so funny? Richard: He goes, "She's got this!", he's like, "I'm going to just sit here and listen and I'll give some suggestions." And literally, that's how we spent an entire day recording, I don't know, 9 or 10 tracks or whatever it was of the students, some of them are great, some of them not so much, it doesn't really matter. But, you know, he, and it wasn't because he was lazy. Steve is like the least, you know, like between the two of you, it would be a really tough pick of who works harder. I mean, he wasn't just walking away because he didn't feel like helping, he was just like I'm going to give them the chance at this and this is a like it's like an 18, 20 million dollar place. This was not like, you know, these weren't inexpensive facilities with inexpensive gear. This was, you know, potentially massive, you know, liability and he's like "They have, they have this, just just do what you're doing." Joe: And I assume Emma is running a Pro Tools session? Richard: Oh, yeah, yeah, Joe: Right! Richard: A but, but mostly running the board, you know, on the side. I think it was an API. Joe: Ok, Richard: Something worth like more than my house, like Joe: Sure. Richard: 10 times over Joe: Yeah. Richard: In a room, you know, I think at one point Queen had recorded in the same room. I mean, this is not you know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: And who knows who else. I mean, this is unbelievable! I mean, Joe: Right. Richard: It was, but that to me, that was one of those moments where I was like, ok, the ups and downs of everything that may have gone on, clearly, again, at least as terms in terms of the concept, wWe're doing ok. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: If Steve Steve Marcantonio feels like he can let my students run a session on that equipment...ok Joe: Yeah, Richard: I'm going to take that for the win. I just Joe: Sure. Richard: I just don't think Joe: So the program Richard: I. Joe: At this point still in 2009 involves what different aspects? And how do kids get into it or not be in it? Richard: Ok, so I and I still, as much as I can have a, if you like anything at all about music in any capacity, I want you in here. Joe: Ok. Richard: If you're hard to work with, this is probably not going to go well. If you're, if you're lazy, that's going to be ok, as long as you're not blaming me for your laziness. If you own up to it, we'll find a way to make it work. I know that there's a lot of people will say, you know what? "You got to drive the kids, you got to drive the kids." And you know what? That's probably true. I just can't do it because my brain keeps going back to like I get, I get, I get hung up on the I, "You don't want to pick up that instrument and play it!?" I don't, what? what? "Why would you not want to pick up that instrument and play it!?" It literally, doesn't, I can't, I can't sort it, I wish I could, I know that maybe that's a cop out. But basically, at this point, everybody comes in and it's a year of intense, got to play instruments, got to play instruments, got to play instruments. There's a lot of benefits to that. But I start running into a philosophical problem, which maybe I needed to get over myself. But, you know, at the time, the original name of the program was not Creative Musical Arts and Sciences, it was Contemporary Music and Sound. The word contemporary has a lot of baggage, I soon found out. And I also felt like it wasn't really accurate. I wanted the word creative. Joe: Super important. Richard: It needed, it just needed to be there. So there you have the name change. And what, what starts to happen over the preceding years and you know, we get better at producing more material. We are proving ourselves more and more so we can get a hold of more equipment and things of that nature. And all the while, in the back of my head, is this creative name thing happens. You start referring to like what I wanted to be, which is a truly open, creative platform. And so what happens is I start to look at that first year and I go, well, wait a minute, I'm setting up roadblocks for these kids, well-intentioned roadblocks. And I think from a pedagogy standpoint, the idea of you have to rock or a rock...you to walk before you can run. I get it! I understand it! You know, you got to start with, you know, plan like, you know, your 50's kind of surf beats before you're gonna go play Tom Sawyer kind of stuff or whatever, you know, you're not you know, you're not playing a Purdie shuffle right out of the gate. You know, it's I mean, there's you know, and I understand that. But, and maybe this is a, a nod to the reality of the world that students currently live in and maybe maybe it's wrong of me to to say, well, it's ok but there is a, if you're going to be truly open and creative, then you need to be open and creative. Richard: And I started to develop this process where I would look at the program and anything we would want to do or anything the kid would propose and I would say, "Does this move their process forward or not?" And I started to look at the first year and that massive intensity on learning to play an instrument. And I looked at the well, ok, it could be argued that the long term benefits outweigh the short term frustrations but I'm loosing kids. And I'm also, I realize the thing that made me stop having just a year long exploration, if you will, of how to play an instrument, was I realized that the very thing that I was railing against in the traditional music world that, you know, you got to stop telling kids that just because they want to, like the turntables thing, is somehow illegitimate musically. I realize that in my own way I was doing that. And there are so many graduates now that I have been so tempted to try to find on social media and be like, hey, you probably don't remember me, that jerk music teacher you had for a year or two in high school but I wanted to tell you, I was wrong about this part of the approach. And I'm constantly looking like, to me, this is cathartic, like I will confess that in a heartbeat. Whereas other people what are you doing? What do you know? But I'm I can't, I can't, I have a hard... Richard: I look at the program right now. I look at the program in terms of this closure and I even thought, we were doing a workshop yesterday with a bunch of students on some stuff and we got on the topic of it and just their frustrations and the whole thing and I said, honestly, I'm not looking for false compliments here, I said "I would give myself a C plus for how I've executed things as the instructor, as the facilitator." And I'm pretty good at this stuff, I actually have been consulting for years with other people on how to move their game forward and you know, weird situations or whatever. And I'd only give myself a C plus. And, you know, that's really made me think. But in any case, it all comes back to this open creative platform idea. And so what I realized is that when I tell a kid, look, you're going to spend a year really getting good at guitar so that in year two we can start writing and recording. What I've actually said to them is your ideas aren't worthy yet. And the more I thought about it, the more I got really upset with myself. And I just basically decided that whatever happens, happens but I'm not going to do that anymore. And if a kid comes in and all they can do is grab a single drumstick and whack a snare drum in time with their friend. Go back to that Marcus Mumford kick drum idea Joe: Yeah, Richard: A little Joe: Yeah. Richard: Bit, if that's all they can do? We're going to legitimize that because and here's what I found. It's like a slingshot a little bit. Yeah, they seem like they're almost moving backwards in their musical skill set because you're not pushing that but what seems to happen is when you legitimize it a couple of things happened, including they get self-motivated. Because that kid that starts just on that snare drum hitting out time, if they stick with that in the context of I'm making music with my friend, they will get it in time, and then once that's in time, they're going to go, "What happens if I pick up another drumstick and now I've got one in each hand?" And now we have, you know, doubled the rhythmic possibilities. But they're looking at it through the perspective of what can I do with it musically, not all about technique. Technique can't be the "T" for technique can't be important, just like the "T" for technology can't be important. It just can't! The creativity, the career, the career part has to be the over shouting or over overarching thing and it has to be overshadowing everything else on, as far as I'm concerned, a multi expo, an exponential level. It just has to be! So I've continued to move into that. So now the technique is covered differently. I have what I call the, I just, I call it the GAC should be the GEC. It's G, E minor and C and the premise is you're going to learn G, E minor and C or you're going to learn how to keep a very basic beat to somebody else who's learning G, E, minor and C and we're going to have you make a piece of music with those three really basic chords that are all white keys on a piano, that you can play with one finger on a couple of strings on a uke or a bass or a guitar, or you're gonna you know, you're gonna sing unison tones if you're a vocalist or match it with that clarinet or I don't care, it's not about that. It's about seeing the musical connections with somebody else. You are going to collab, that's the other thing, the collaboration part. I can keep bringing on all these "C" words, but it really. They'll become, the self motivation will make up for it. The other thing, too, is, you know, if I want to play Beethoven, I need a certain amount of technique or I'm not getting Beethoven, I acknowledge that, that's important. There is an art to that, that cannot be overstated. But I don't require Beethoven to express myself. And I think a lot of people get confused about that. And I think a lot of people don't understand the importance of it. I think. well, heck, Beethoven himself changed things so radically because he himself believed that he should express himself the way he felt he should express. I mean, I mean like literally by ironically moving away from Beethoven, where if we do it, I think in this context, we're actually paying an odd sort of homage to him Joe: All right. What he believed Richard: Philosophically Joe: In. Richard: in terms of music. And it's just evolved from there. I would rather see a kid get up and play something that's theirs, that is imperfect. But that is them. Then have a kid get up there and feel like, well, it doesn't sound like it's supposed to because that's not what the recording sounded like. Who cares? That's not what it's for. I found over the course, you know, as it's as this is as grown. It was interesting over that, we're finished out. The school year ends next week. But I've been having weekly scheduled workshops that I have kids come into when they can. I should have probably and this is part of my C plus or C minus that I'd give myself. I made them essentially optional as long as they kept up with the asynchronous assignments and stuff. But what I found happened was, is a lot of kids are showing up to these things, just for the sense of showing up to something. You know, we're having conversations that are Joe: To Richard: Rooted Joe: See their Richard: In Joe: Friends Richard: Music. Joe: And. Richard: Yeah, but, but, but, but that's, that's OK. Like, like that's turning into good things. Or I'll go out and frequently what happens is we'll have our session, we'll be talking, we'll come to the end of it, I'll have to go on to something else with another group or whatever and they'll be saying, "Hey, can you hit me up real quick? You know, open up another Zoom?" Or they'll do it on Dischord or whatever and, you know, let's play around some ideas or stuff. So it's, they're still making connections and if they use the workshops for that, do I really have to care that they didn't present the project, you know, in the same circumstance? They submitted the project, will take a look at it or we'll do it in a different workshop. It's ok. I think things like that have to matter more. What I was gonna say and I know, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna hit your two and a half hour mark. I'm so sorry! Joe: So Richard: I mean, I'm, I'm embarrassed. Joe: It's okay...No not at all Richard: I do have to, but I do have to share one other part of the program that has evolved since just last year. And I'm glad you're sitting down for this, because when I describe it to you, it's almost comically funny, but I mean to preface it by telling you that I am now so committed to this because I see the open creative platform element, in such a different way now, that I am, I'm well into my career as an educator. I'm not that old, but I'm old enough. This has given me so much of an interest in what could the next phase of this CMAS program be that I can't even begin to tell you. I would love to bring back the more traditional ensembles. I know, I actually have derived a plan. I know it would work. Politics won't let me do that.  Someday I still have hope but this is different. Out of the blue last spring, I get asked and I still don't fully understand why I got asked. I got asked to, of all things, pilot, no, not pilot. I got us the first started with teach at Arcadia, an engineering design class. Why are you giving me an engineering design class? Well, because you're technically qualified because of the CTE, the way the rules are written for CTE. And you like having the extra contract and this way you can keep the extra contract, because every I look at everything through the lens of my two little boys. That I will literally do I will braid your hair, Joe, for a six fig, for an extra contract. Richard: That's literally where my, that's I mean, I will totally do it. So but so I'm like, ok, sure, why? why not. Right? And I'm, I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but to put it nicely, I'm promised a whole lot of resources and none of them, none of them come through. On a whim, I threw a thing like, the one thing that they said they were setting up for me, the people organizing were like, "Yeah, you don't have the engineering background to come to this conference for us to work with you, really sorry." The woman who was basically organizing it for this conference, not in my district, not at my school, actually still have yet to meet her. I would like to meet her. Jill was really kind. She's like, but I know of this other thing going on. I'm going to call you back in half an hour. She calls me back with these phone numbers. I went up on the phone with these people that are going to pilot for this previous school year, for the first time, they have a multi-million dollar grant through the National Science Foundation to revamp the entire concept of engineering in schools. Richard: It's headed up by and now I am flexing on their behalf. ASU, which is one of the large...I think it's the largest engineering school in the world, believe it or not, Vanderbilt, University of Maryland, Virginia Tech and I forget the fifth major university that is supervising this. And they, because the woman, Jill, from this other thing, this small little training session that they won't let me go to because I don't have the degree in engineering. Got all this experience in audio engineering but none of that, and that's fine. They are all excited and I think they may all be drunk. I don't know what's going on. So literally, they're like, no, no, no, no, we, I'm like, I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, okay, here's your, [Them]"Can you come to Maryland for a week over the summer?" [Richard] "I guess" [Then] "We'll pay for it, don't worry, we'll pay for everything. Just can you come to the University of Maryland, we're gonna do a training session." [Richard] "Yeah, OK." [Them] "It starts Sunday." This is like a Tuesday. They're like [Them] "If you can get on a plane, we want you here for a week to do this thing. We just got to make sure we, we just got dot some "i's" and cross some "t's" or whatever. Richard: So we get to Friday night and I get this call from, you know, one of their head lead, lead investigators on this whole thing and he goes, [Them]"Ok, yeah, yeah, we need you here!" I'm like, [Richard] "Are you sure? [Them] "No, no, no, we've been looking at your website and we've been looking at you, you're the perfect person for this!" And I'm like [Richard] "I'm a musician, maybe, I sure as hell I'm not an engineer, and they're like, [Them] "No, you don't understand." OK, they're like [Them] "Just come to Maryland." So I literally, I booked a flight on a Friday, I get on a plane Sunday morning and Sunday night I'm at a dinner where I am so not the smartest person in the room, it's not even funny, Joe. I mean, it's, and by the end of dinner, I realized what they're trying to do and what they've basically decide, what they've basically come up with and they've done all this research prior to it over the last several years, that the concept of what people think engineering is, is completely off. I say the word engineering not to be funny and flip the script here a little bit on you, what are the first three words when I say engineering that you think of? Joe: Well, I always think when you and I are talking and you say engineering, I'm thinking just sound engineering. That's like so when you keep, you keep talk, you keep talking about engineering, I'm like, what does he know about engineer, like Richard: Ok, Joe: Sound engineering? Richard: Ok, Joe: But Richard: So remove Joe: There's electrical Richard: The sound. Joe: Engineering, there's, I don't know, mechanical engineer, I don't know. There's whatever. Richard: Right. But are you going to minus the sound engineering part, you're not going to time much of any of that to music in any fashion right? And the thing of it is, where they did all this research is that apparently most people don't tie it to creativity either. And they don't tie it to solving problems for people. And they don't tie it to something that I've latched on to that, there's a story behind every single thing that has to get designed or built or created or engineered, because otherwise, how would you come up with the need? And some of these stories are incredibly impactful. So their whole premise is that they wanted to pilot this year, there were nine of us across the country, most of them on the East Coast and the Midwest. I was the only, one part of the reason they got excited, I think was also because I was from Arizona and Arizona didn't have anybody in it. And the University of Arizona was one of the biggest contributors to this whole thing excuse me, not University of Arizona, Arizona state. But in any case, but what started to happen, we start having these conversations. And by the end of dinner, we are talking about what they call the engineering design process and what I have for years been calling and have gotten, I guess you could say, known for of the creative process. And what we start to realize are, well, they're, they're kind of like halfway laughing at me, halfway laughing with me because they understood this already. This is why they got so excited for me, I know and they've told me this since. Because when you take the two processes, engineering, design and creative process and you put them next to each other when you keep the definitions the same, but change the jargon on a few terms, they're not just similar, they're actually identical in a really freaky way. So all of a sudden, last fall, I'm in the summer and fall, I'm like, oh my gosh! Well, now and you have to remember all these years of building this thing, then that whole epiphany about open creative platform and what that needs to mean. And now I just feel like I'm on a mission with this. So I go through this whole year and it's, it's very much kind of an engineering design process, although interestingly, I'm still getting and I still am every year getting the music education interns from ASU, nearly every music I get, I don't know I don't get every one of their music education majors, but I get almost all of them. At some point they spend a semester with me, for better or worse. They're coming in and they're watching this class, too and it's getting really interesting to see. And we're talking about parallels and process and parallels and possibilities everything else. And as we're going through this and I'm having meetings with these engineering folks from all over the country and we're talking about all the connections. And I'm like, I have an idea for year two. And I'm like, so I've built this industry based music program that has proven itself, I'm not saying we've got it perfected, but you know, I have a, I do at least have a reasonable track record for flying a plane while it's being built. Richard: And for upping the possibilities of where we can push things in terms of opportunities for kids. And I've been successful,I mean, it's not like, you know, I think that, you know, on balance, the risk of sounding a little egotistical, it's not unreasonable to say at least "Give me a shot to explore the idea." Right? So I started looking some like I'm looking at the standards for this new program I've been piloting for a year and looking at the state education standards. I'm looking at my music standards and my own program standards. And I'm going, oh, my gosh, we could take all of this stuff, you know, speaking of mixers, could have a kid build a mixer. Why not? They're going to have to, I mean, there's electrical engineering in that, we're getting into mechanical engineering because of what a mixture does in terms of its functions, in terms of controlling the sound of space in a room. There's all kinds of engineering already that and I was starring in little projects throughout the year. You know, had them designing windows. We'd need a window between our control room and our life studio space. These are the champagne first world problems that we have in CMAS. But I had the engineering students designing how that would look. We were talking, you know, the lighting on the soundstage and how can we build a different mechanism, door thresholds. I mean, we were already starting to do some of these stuff, at least as concepts and on all these different things. And I'm like, there's so many things. So I called the head of the State Joe: Wait, Richard: Department. Joe: Wait. Please Richard: I'm sorry. Joe: Tell me please tell me you're addressing the the buzz that can potentially come through the console from the lights Richard: Oh, absolutely. No, Joe: And Richard: We're talking about the electrical Joe: Please, Richard: Interference. Joe: Please tell me you're you're talking about the the awful sound of the air conditioner when it comes on while you're in the middle of Richard: Absolutely, Joe: All those all those Richard: All Joe: Things Richard: Those Joe: We Richard: Different Joe: Struggle. Richard: Things. Joe: That's right. Richard: You know, right now above my head, there's a fan because we live in Arizona and this is a house that I've been very lucky enough to be not to convert to a nice home studio, but it's still a house not built as a studio from scratch, you know. And we're talking about things of that nature, you know, how do you deal with isolation when you don't have isolation? I mean, you name it, we're, we're dealing with all this kinds and it's endless and this is my point. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I have this idea my, my district, God love them, doesn't quite see it. But the people who run the pilot with the National Science Foundation, they're looking at, they're going, "You're basically just talking about changing up the projects, not really changing up the standards of the curriculum goals." And I'm like, "Exactly!" Because it's the same thing, the prob...I mean, it's just the same thing. So I call the state, the head of the State Dept. of Ed, who I get along with to be fair. And I'm just like, "I just want to run this by you so that if anybody comes back and says you can't or shouldn't." And she hears that and she's like, "That's just I said, I already wanted to take your classes and now I now, I think I'm going to like, I'm going to come take your class!" Like she's all over it, but she's giving me ideas. So now, just to give you a sense of where this is headed, she goes, "OK, what about this?" I looked like she was even worse than I was. She's like, "What if you had the kids simulate like they're touring, like they're, they're a production company for a tour and they have to get the band from, let's say, LaGuardia Joe: That's awesome. Richard: Airport Joe: Yeah. Richard: Over to London and they got a design like, how are they going to put the gear on the plane? And they've got to calculate now, like, how much tonnage can they actually take and what are they gonna have to buy or rent over there versus what can they take it? How are they gonna get all these other things calculating like the air velocity and how long it will? Well, I'm like, we are so open like that, I mean, like the creative options are there, the industry options are there. And if you had told look, if you had told me years ago that, first of all, I'd be making, you know, my day job would be an education and I would enjoy that, I would think you were nuts! If you told me that I would be developing a pilot for an engineering program that somehow tied in the music industry legitimately and I'm not just like phoning it in and I'm like passionately committed to it. I would have had you locked up somewhere for being certifiable. But, but, you know, back to the original thing and I know that sounds funny, but this all still comes back to those key concepts to me, and that's why I'm excited about it. To me, what is the, what does the art need? Well, the art needs engineers. The art needs musicians. The art needs producers. The art needs...and I'm not just talking about sound engineers. They are important too. The art needs marketing. We've actually had and you've mentioned we've brought in a marketing track a little bit into, you know, what we do with the program. Anything that's industry based, the career part, you know, if it's career based, if it's creative, if it's collaborative. We should be able to do it, and if we can't, what I have learned is that's not because we can't do it, it's because we haven't figured out how to do it yet. And so I'm really big on any silos or any walls that block creative process. I'm knocking them down, you know, and I'm going to try piss off some people doing it. This engineering thing, there are some people that aren't thrilled about it and I'm gonna have to work through that at some point with them, just like there are people who aren't happy that the program exists. You know, on the music education side of it. Joe: That, to me, is just, blows my mind because and Richard: Because Joe: I Richard: Your career, Joe: Don't get it. Richard: But that's because you're career oriented. To you, you love the art but you also know what's necessary to pay the bills. Joe: Yeah, but it's just, it's a tool set that is invaluable because you're, you're going to run into situations where you're gonna be like, I'm so glad I was a part of that, because I can take even that one little piece of it and it's going to help me get through this moment. I mean, to be able to be a musician but at the same time, understand the process of recording, of acoustics, of, you know, so many other things. It's, I don't know. I'm blown away to even hear that. But that's. Richard: I, I, I hate to say it, but it's true. I mean. But like I said, part of me now looks at that and thinks it's just kind of funny almost. And not to, I don't I'm not wish, I'd like, I don't want the confrontation. But I mean, like the people that are going to say no to this, are going to go on record and saying those five major engineering institutions. You know, the National Science Foundation is wrong, Joe: Yeah. Richard: That that's not a real engineer. The state, the Department of Ed for the state, which is funny enough, almost like the smallest bat to swing in all of this, and that's a huge bat to swing. So I'm just kind of like, I'm just going to keep moving forward. It's good for the kids, the good you know, my site administration think they've, they don't get it, but they like it and they're kind of like, we're just going to stay out of your way. I'm not really worried, you know. I mean, it'll be what it'll be. If I'm wrong, I'll go find some, I mean, I guess I'd go find somewhere else, but I just don't I know I'm not wrong, I hate to say it that way. That's such a horribly arrogant thing to say after I talk all of that about not being arrogant. But these people have convinced me people like you have convinced me, you know, like I said, the industry part of it. Why? You know, of course, we all want to be A Listers with valets and somebody plugs in all our gear for us and everything else. But at the same time, the best musicians know how their gear works. Joe: Yeah. Richard: They just do. And to some extent, want to go and make sure it's, like even if they have somebody who plugs it in for them, can you honestly tell me? Look, I know you've had gigs where some but, you know, you've got a drum tech or whatever. You don't go and check that kit before before you perform on it? Just Joe: Yeah, it just Richard: I mean, it's Joe: It's part of your being. Yeah. Richard: Exactly Joe: Yes. Yeah. Richard: It's absurd not to. So I think all of that put together. This is fascinating to me. Joe: And you've already proven the concept. So you would think that, I guess that would be the most frustrating part for me is that you've already proof of concept been done. It's how many years is the program now been in running. Richard: It's officially 12, I guess. Joe: Because of the CMAS program is 12 years, is it, is it, you're in the program from what? What year of high school. To. Richard: So well, and this is becoming an issue, too, it's always been open from freshmen through senior. Joe: Ok. And is it you're either in it or you're not? Or is there tracks that you can say, I'm interested in the sound recording track. But I'm not Richard: Ok, Joe: Interested Richard: So, Joe: In the songwriting Richard: Yeah. Joe: Tracks. Richard: As he was saying, so I'm going to take the this new engineering, in the traditional word of the word engineering, I'm going to set that aside, because that's where that's going to take some years to develop. Richard: So I'm going Joe: Right. Richard: To set that aside. But as far as the rest goes. Basically, it's what's your interest? I want to be in it, I want to I want to do sound engineering. I want to be a producer. I want to be on the stage as the performer. I want to be a beat maker. You name it and again, I, I, I want to promote the shows. I want to make the music videos, whatever. OK. Everybody's gonna go, there's like some core things, I need everybody to understand the basics of how this microphone works that I'm talking. I need the basics of why your headphones need to go into an interface and what that interface does. I need you to understand the stuff on the walls here, why it does what it does and why it's actually not gonna soundproof the roomm, it's only treating the roo

Richard Maxwell has created and runs one of the most unique and inspiring creative musical arts and sciences program in the nation. For me, it reminds me of the entry level sound recording program I went through in college, only Richard's students get into the creative process early because of what he had the guts to create. This program happens in an area of the school campus where they have their own section of rooms that is their facility. It's made up of a larger classroom if you will that doubles as a performance room plus they have 15 Pro Tools stations and Pro Tools running in their A and B recording studios. They learn how to be expressive without fear of judgement, they write songs, they mutually assist and critique each others work in a helpful, loving way and it's magical to see what happens on a daily basis. Richard is a loving, caring person who, by his own efforts and fortitude, has created a platform where he can give the students, his very best in regards to guidance, ideas and processes.If you love music, talking about music, the process of making music, what music looks like in today's world, interested in how music could be handled in schools or always wondered how a single person can make a huge change in our education system, these episodes split into Part 1 and Part 2, are for you! Enjoy, share and spread the musical love. Richard Maxwell's Links: Richard's Website: https://sites.google.com/view/richardmaxwell CMAS Program: https://sites.google.com/view/arcadiacmas YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaxwellMusic/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.maxwell.3538 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rchrdmxwll/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/rchrdmxwll LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-maxwell-235ab513/ https://youtu.be/KPMuQNW9GL4 ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass/ ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world.For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Part 1 – Richard Maxwell Interview: Joe: Hey, Richard, great to have you, man. I'm glad you could come on the show. And as you know, I'm a huge fan and when I reached out, I figured, you know, while we're all in this COVID-19 thing, you aren't quite as busy as you usually are. So I'm glad Richard: Different Joe: I was able to Richard: And Joe: Get you in here. Richard: Different, busy? No, I'm I'm I am as I'm I'm as big of a fan of yours as you are always so kind to me as well. So Joe: I Richard: I think Joe: Appreciate Richard: A Joe: It. Richard: Mutual admiration society. But that's Joe: Awesome. Richard: A Joe: Yeah. Richard: That's a good thing. I'm flattered to be here. Joe: So I know just from my own personal experience with you that you are a multi instrumentalist because I know that you and I have a kinship with drums for sure. Richard: Yes, we do. Joe: But that's pretty much where my talent starts and stops. And then you go on to songwriting and playing guitar. And I'm sure you play the keys. Richard: Yeah, but. Joe: So. Richard: Yeah. But to be fair, your skill you have in, like your little finger in drums eclipses my entire rhythmic independence and abilities beyond belief. Joe: Now that you talk about being too kind, that's too kind. Right. Richard: Well, no. I mean, you are a masterful musician in your own right. Absolutely. Joe: Well, Richard: I am Joe: Thank you. Richard: A jack of all trades, master of none in some ways. But I think that I mean, for what it's worth, the multi instrumentalist thing is partially due to the control freak nature of my personality, I think. I've had time to analyze this over the years and some of that I'd like you know, I'd like to be able to sort of be like, yes, I love playing all these instruments and I do. But some of it is because somewhere along the line, it was hard to find people that I felt like I could say, hey, let's do it this way, you know, and some of that was because I was probably not probably I was really difficult to work with. I think myself. So I started just kind of trying to figure out ways to do it on my own. On the other hand, you do learn a lot when you explore other instruments. So there's a lot of instruments that I will pick up and play badly just for the sort of joy of seeing what it does. What's that? But I like that. I think I think I think musically, there's something about process for me. You know, I'm I'm at an age where, you know, there's a lot of "what ifs" in my life and in my career musically. So now, you know, it's interesting because, like, I think you're, you're in, you're at a point in your thirties where you like all of those things are sort of like, oh, man, if only I had. If only I had. And then, weirdly enough, you get to a point where you're like, wait a minute, I actually now this actually means like artistic freedom. Which has been fascinating for me, and I know we also want to talk about, you know, the program at the school and stuff, but it sort of relates to it like, like you start to realize, like sometimes that's actually more valuable. Like there's a ya know, there obviously we all want to be Springsteen or Taylor Swift or whoever is that, you know, that that A-list group. Of course. I mean, who wouldn't want Joe: Yeah. Richard: That lifestyle and and those opportunities and I think that anybody who says they don't, is probably not being entirely honest. On the other hand, you know, I remember, I've been biking through this COVID stuff as much as I can so I, I have one ear with a couple different podcasts that I listen to and when John Prine died, when and if you know who he was or Joe: Yeah, Richard: Not, is Joe: Absolutely. Richard: Really a brilliant songwriter. So there was this one podcast that was talking about him that had said something that just stuck with me. I was never a huge John Prine fan. I mean, I respected the guy, but they were saying how he looked at his career and at one point, the fact that he never had, like, that top 10 smash hit was a detriment. But then the music critic who, who's pretty, pretty brilliant guy, he goes, yeah, but on the other hand, when you talk to people about his entire catalog, everybody's like, yeah, but everything's brilliant and not having that hit, like, he wasn't identified by a particular sound or of particular time and he could always kind of do what he artistically wanted. I've become more fascinated by, by that than, than anything else. And I talk a lot about that with my students, you know, in their process to like, you know, that thing that you love is wonderful. But what's like, what's the step before and maybe what's the step after? And are you and frankly, are you allowed to even take it? You know, we get very critical of artists and what we see on TV and on, you know, any video and YouTube now and everything else, but sometimes I wonder, you know, man, it's that the pressure to sustain that, whatever that thing is for them. I don't know. I know it sounds weird to maybe people would say, oh, he's just copping out for whatever. I don't know if I'd want it at this point in my life. Joe: Yes Richard: You don't. I mean. Joe: That's funny because I've had the same conversation with myself. I totally in my heart and in my soul and to be truthful to myself, that's all I ever wanted. And then it took me until I don't think it was that long ago that I actually was able to look myself in the mirror and go, you just didn't put in the work. You didn't put in that extra thing to allow yourself to rise above to be noticed. It just, it didn't and I know that, you know, I just I just never went that last whatever it was Richard: Sure. Joe: To get Richard: But then, Joe: It done. Richard: On the other hand, you know that what's the cliche about, you know, one. One door opens and another and one closes and another opens. I mean, you just you know, I've come to realize that. That that. Things happen for a reason like, like, you know, along the lines of what you're talking about. So, like, I never took the risk to, like, go out to, I've been to L.A. enough times that I kind of have a love hate relationship with that city in some respect, I think, like everybody does. And places that nature in terms of the industry. But I never when I was in my early 20s, you know, I didn't do the stereotype I wanted to but the thing of it is, is that I know now, looking back, if I'm like you're saying, being truly honest with yourself, I'm truly honest with myself, I know for a fact that if I had gone out and done that, then, it wouldn't, I would have, I would have destroyed myself, probably like I wasn't going to hit it, like it wasn't going to happen then. It Joe: That's Richard: Just Joe: Interesting. Richard: It just wasn't I wasn't ready. Joe: The. Richard: I wasn't you know, I am a very slow process learner. It takes me a long time. I guess I'm not OK with it, you know? I mean, I'm sitting in this, you know, not to sound funny, but on the other hand, I'm this is everyday for me where I am right now. Like, Joe: Right. Richard: This is you know, I was I was in a position we were able to get a house built. And it's not like it's that fancy. And I'm not going to show you. I could show you what I'm looking at out my window. But like, if you saw like, there's just gear and stuff everywhere, it's a mess in the studio. But the fact that I'm able to sit in a studio every day, I have opportunities where I can make music on my own terms. You know, I'm thinking about everybody I grew up with and stuff like that, that's, that's not so bad. You know, I mean, I'm not like like taking a, like, sort of second place on that either, I mean, you know, I have I have friends, I have students who tour, former students who tour all over the world now. And I'm so proud of them. And it but it's brutal, I mean, it's just I mean, not even I'm not even talking about, like, the COVID stuff. I mean, just that lifestyle in general and trying to maintain that, I mean, it, it I did I did some of that, you know, like one hundred years ago. But, you know, it's I guess, I guess maybe I feel lucky we live in a time where I can feel fulfilled in some ways. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and it's so funny because I just the last guests that I had on it, we actually talked for two and a half hours and I won't do that to you. And it was I'm going to actually blame it on him because he's such a great storyteller. But I had Nate Morton on who is the drummer for The Voice, and him and I have become good friends over the past few years. And, you know, we went through his early childhood then, you know, going to engineering school, of all things, and quitting it because it was he knew it wasn't in his heart. Going to Berklee and then the connection that I'm making here was you talking about L.A., is he said that I knew I had to go where the gigs were of of the caliber that I wanted. I know I could have stayed in Boston, but I wanted to play on a hit TV show or I wanted to tour with the best of the best. And so he said, I just knew that that's the only move that I had with the two things that he he points out the two biggest things, decisions he's ever made in his life, even to this day was, number one, going to Berklee and number two, going to L.A. And without those combination of those two things, you wouldn't be where he is today. Richard: Sure, sure, Which Joe: So, Richard: Totally makes sense. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Which makes sense and for everybody, you know, and you've got to find your place in it. I don't know. Who knows? I mean, we're not that old. You never know. It's, I mean, to me, mean and the industry is different now. And there's, you know. I mean, because I work obviously I work with a lot of teenagers and a lot of 20 somethings and they're all and they're wonderful. But it is interesting how, like, you really can almost you can almost like feel the sort of like flash in the pan kind of vibe of whatever they're, they're currently into. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Which I don't see that as a criticism. I just mean, you know. Sometimes you, you know, I wonder, like, yhere are certain artists or certain bands and, you know, they used to get like, you know, the joke was like the oldies circuit kind of thing. But at the same time, you look at what those musicians are doing and there's something about the fact that they're that they're playing like, like I feel like that state, even with all the technology and I am a technology guy, let's not kid ourselves. Joe: Right. Richard: At the end of the day, it can't be about the technology. And I feel like there's something, you know, like. And I know they have all kinds of ups and downs with personnel and issues of personality. But like journey of all the, you know, sort of like stereotypical cliche kind of bands in a way. But it is interesting to me that decades on, when you see them play they're play like they're actually are playing Joe: All right. Richard: Late. And I think that's the right partially think that that's a big part of the reason I think that people go and see the Rolling Stones play. Because they're playing like like it's not tracks, it's not you don't you know, you don't go into their show going, well, they're going to produce it this way or produce it that way. And I don't think that has so much to do with age. I think that has to do with approach. I've become a big fan of all crazy things. I tell my students I always find this funny. I found myself a few years ago and I couldn't figure out what it was. At first I would I would be in here like in the studio and just kind of like I'd be doing like paperwork or like just whatever, like just I wasn't working on something, but I'd want happened in the background and I would find myself streaming from YouTube, live bluegrass. And I could not for the life of me, I don't like, I'm not like a country guy, I don't, what in the world is happening? You know, that's like my having, like, some sort of, like, long, weird dystopian out of body midlife musical crisis... Richard: I mean, like because I mean, I was, you know, my first musical love was classical and in prog rock. And then I got into rock and anything else. So like bluegrass is is just. We're, we're, we're moving on in a chain that was so bizarre and then I finally figured it out and it was because it was pure, like it's a bunch of guys and girls sitting with acoustic instruments, basically, and they have to play them. The instrument has to respond. You don't get the benefit of, you know, all the other stuff if you don't do it, it doesn't happen. And I have that has become incredibly compelling for me. And now so I've been spending years and I don't know if you want to get into this part of it or not. But I've been spending years trying to figure out a way to marry the two. How can you like my big thing right now is. How do you take like I love loopers, for example? The textures you can create. I really dislike the lack of in the moment control you have, though, with a looper, because once you do a loop, you're basically stuck with it. Joe: Right. Richard: You know, you can stop it. You can start it and sign. But in real time, I want to sit down like, like when you sit down behind a kit, you know, I want the high hat to respond as I'm playing it, not in some prefabricated way that I can no longer alter in any way. So I've been working on trying to figure out a way to play with all of the layers, but have them respond to me like I was sitting down behind the kit and doing it organically or at a piano or on a guitar or just, you know, a kazoo. I don't care what the instrument is but the idea that it responds immediately to me, that's a more interesting use of all of this. So anyway. Joe: What are you doing? Yeah. Not to go too far because we know, but it's interesting now, what are you doing to do that? Richard: So a lot of it has to do with um, figuring out ways to like, look what makes up the layer that you need. Do you know what I mean? So like like a loop for me, when I was like, you know, you there's there's people that are brilliant data. I mean, and that's the other thing, too. You know, you're you know, Ed Sheeran is a brilliant songwriter. He is gifted on so many levels and he's kind of perfected the looping thing. You know, Tash Sultana, I don't know who she is or not. Joe: I don't Richard: You should definitely look her up. She Joe: Work. Richard: Is. Oh, my gosh. She is about the most organic looper I've ever seen in my life to the point where you can tell that something glitched or made a mistake. And it's like she does it, it doesn't stop. She's so in the moment about the music she's making and it's it's just frickin' brilliant. It's unbelievable. But the point is, is that, you know, you start to look at all these textures and you start to see some commonalities. And then funny enough, I, I started looking at, well, what do I really need? Like like when when I when a singer songwriter starts a loop performance, a lot of times, you know, they start with like a drumbeat kind of thing, right? And, you know, they've got their acoustic guitar and they're doing all kinds of stuff. And there's not I mean, it's cool. But then it's like, well, what is that really about? You know? And so I had gotten really heavy into Mumford and Sons, of all things. And I'm watching Marcus Mumford, especially when it's just the four guys. Sorry, four guys [shows fingers]. And, you know, and the and he's doing you know, he's just got that kick drum and he's got that weird little pedal mechanism for the tambourine. But it's essentially he's doing all that momentum off of a kick drum. And because it's so well played organically, you can hear the rest of the drumkit, but you don't actually need it. I know for a fact that you in studio work because, you know, I've talked about this. You have a less is more kind of approach. You know, you don't have to you know, don't get me wrong, we're all fans of Neil Peart. I mean, Joe: Yes. Richard: You know, God rest his soul. The man was a genius on so many levels, but we're not gonna be able to pull that off. Like, I mean, he he could he could fill the space and you didn't go "Well, that was gratuitous." Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know, that's a I mean, you know, he's like he's not the only drummer. I think that could really get away with that consistently. Simon Phillips may be another one. But that's just and that's just just my opinion. But my point being, what I've basically been doing is I'm looking at the layers of what can you actually do and then essentially it's a variation on voice splitting. So if I take a tone and I branch it out and I noodle with it and essentially process it in a certain way, you don't necessarily know what it is that I'm playing from. But then it goes even further, and I promise we won't stay too long on this. But just because this is where my brain goes, Joe: That's right. Richard: Still, I had developed this hole and there's some video and stuff you can I mean, I'll send you some links and stuff of early, like prototypes of what I was doing and it's fun. But it's are real, first, I was a real pain to get a song prepped. Like the irony of the amount of time it would take me to get a song prep so that it could feel natural and organic was just like killing me. Like it, it became so creatively so, so I went back, I've gone back and I've read redressed it. And the crazy thing is, is so I started looking at instead of for the drum kit, I started looking at the relationship between the kick drum and the bass drum. And part of that was because at one point years ago, I had developed this really cool way to simulate what sounded like drums off of an acoustic guitar without having to play it as a loop like it was coming essentially off the strings, believe it or not. And it sounded really cool. And then I would do like some coffeehouse gigs or some, you know, whatever, some small shows and things, theater kind of gigs and stuff. And I realized that people like if they knew what I was doing, they'd be all over it. But just as a listener, it was like, oh yeah, he's got backing tracks. An I'm like, no wait, you've missed the whole point. And then I realize. And then. And then you like and I know, you know, you perform all the time. You can't really blame your audience if they if they don't get what you're doing, that's on you. You know, there's only so far you can go. Oh yeah. They didn't understand like Joe: Right. Richard: I mean, it's just, you Joe: Right. Richard: Know, you can't play that game successfully. I don't think anybody can. So I've gone back now and I've started to look at what really is required for momentum. And can I treat like for some reason, hearing a bass line off of a guitar? We'll make that jump. I'm still trying to figure out how far do I go with the actual percussion sounds and things, but that's also to me, part of it is I'm a big process guy. I come back to that all the time. This, to me is fascinating. I've been playing with this concept since before my oldest son was born. And I'm really, really freakin old. It's been a long time, Joe: No, Richard: But Joe: I Richard: I. Joe: Really friggin old. Richard: Fair enough... Joe: I Richard: Off. Joe: Don't. Richard: Fair enough, now you're not. And it's just a number anyway, Joe: Right. Richard: Even if you were. And even if I was. No. But seriously, you know, to me, it's the process. I think that. That's the fascinating part. I am reminded Mick Jagger has been asked how many times what you know, "How do you write a hit song?" And I love his response in certain in one interview. He's like, "I don't know and as soon as I figure it out, I'm probably done." Joe: Yeah, Richard: Like, I don't want to know Joe: Yeah, it's interesting. Richard: Why it looked like it. It kind of ruins the magic of it. Joe: Right. Richard: I think there's great merit in, you know, I think art in all of its forms. And for me, it's music is its own, kind of like its own living, breathing entity. And you communicate with it. And, you know, if you if it's if you're working with it collaboratively, it's there's some way, you know, these amazing things will happen. And if you piss it off, it's like it takes its toys and goes home and then you're stuck. And I don't know what to do anymore. I mean, that's but that's that's literally my my thing. Which maybe I don't like I said, I can talk for like I went two and a half hours. I can so beat that Joe. I have. Oh my gosh. I love Joe: So Richard: The sound of my own voice. Joe: That Richard: I'm not going do that. I won't do that to you. Joe: No. Richard: But I know what it's like about the program. Joe: Well, no but, but because we talked about a couple of things here, I'm just going to put. Just add my own two cents based on, you know, the whole looping thing for me. I also love and I'm enamored when I watch it done. The problem that I have when it's in a live situation and I deal with it with the people that, you know, my other persona is being the owner of Onstage Entertainment, right? So booking a lot of entertainment in here in both Arizona and Colorado. I, I have to ask some of them that, OK, I don't mind you looping, but you have to get into the song within the first, like, minute to loop the layer, you know, the layers. And there's I don't know, I don't loop I mean, I don't do it. So I don't, I can't tell them what to do and I can't feel their pain. But if you're going to do it, you got to be quick at it and you got to figure out how to get into the song quickly because people whose interest it just. Richard: Well, you're not wrong. I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, you know, mostly, you know, you do the looping thing and it's like the first time, the first song. That's really a two and a half minute song that takes you 12 minutes to perform. And the audience is like, okay, that was cool. Three songs in and I can tell you this from experience. Some of this is because I don't have the gift that certain people do for looping, which is probably why I gave up on looping in some respects, and now but now I mean, like again a door closes. This is so much more creatively interesting for me. But, you know, three or four songs in the audience is always like we've seen this trick before. We know. We know they. They don't know what's gonna happen specifically, but they kind of know where it's headed. And I think some of that's the lack of interaction in all honesty, I think that's why you see some people like, you know, time. But the looping thing I've I. The one thing that fascinates me about Ed Sheeran is genius level songwriter, brilliant performer. Albums sound nothing like the live show albums are basically a band. Then he goes out by himself, which is very fascinating to me, you know, but on the other hand, I kind of respect it because that kind of I absolutely respect it because to me that's using looping in an effective way, using technology in an effective way. But I'm with you. I, I can imagine, you know, that battle. You're right, people don't, but especially, you know, bars and clubs and stuff. There's Joe: Yeah. Richard: Only so they that you can go and. And again, I think one of the things I know I deal with this a lot with my students is, you know, there is a line that you have you have to accept the fact that if you're going to go off on those musical tangents, that may be incredibly invigorating for you personally, you have to be willing to accept the fact that, you know, you may not get all the gigs you want. You know, or you may not get the type of gig that you think you deserve because people are going to you know, if that's you know, if that's not what the listener wants, that's not what the listener wants. And then, then and then that needs to, but that has to be OK, too. I mean, I think, you know, I firmly believe it's kind of like there's two music industries in a way. There's the industry that we see on TV that, you know, is, you know, is is the big influencers and stuff. And the award shows and everything else. And God love him for it. I like I said, I would love to have their problems, but then there's all this other stuff, but isn't going to make it beyond, you know, it's going to play the smaller clubs and it's going to be in in more intimate settings. Richard: But that's OK, you know what I mean? Like, that's OK. And at least now that's when you and I were growing up. You know, we were we were still of the generation where if it did come on the radio, you didn't hear it. You know, or you had to really I mean, I can remember you would spend hours at a record store. Because you couldn't return it. You know, I mean, you really chose carefully, you know, those, those you know that 10 bucks or 20 bucks or whatever it happened to be, you know, before we really got into the whole Napster opens up streaming for us. You know, world. You know, it's a totally different thing in it's interesting talking to my students about that, because some of them... It's that they are still very careful and they'll tell me they're like, my time is valuable to me. And they'll stay, but, but there's still even with them, there's still a sense of acceptable risk. You know, for, whatever, 10 bucks a month or whatever you spend for whatever streaming platform. I mean, that's like, ya know, that's insane to me. Joe: Yeah, Richard: I mean, Joe: Yeah. Richard: That you can get pretty much every recording that exists for 10 bucks a month. Which Joe: Yeah, Richard: Then also Joe: It's. Richard: Begs the begs the question, is it worth being worried about signing the big record deal anyway? Because you're not gonna make any money for it anyway. Maybe just go make what your heart wants you to make artistically. You know, 50 percent of not much. OK, now you are getting that much in the first place. But. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's for them, you know, for all of us these days with the streaming part of it, it's like drinking water through a firehose when it comes to the amount of content you can actually take in. Where you? Yeah, and you and I are talking. It's like, yeah. Go to the right. You know, you you mowed for lawns. You have ten bucks to go buy the one album that you've been waiting to get Richard: Exactly. Joe: In. Richard: Exactly, exactly. But Joe: Yeah. Richard: It made it so much more, you know, I cannot remember buying an album and not sitting down and listening to it, track for track, multiple times all the way through. Joe: Reading all the liner notes, Richard: Exactly. Joe: Knowing Richard: Exact. Joe: Everybody who played on it every yeah, Richard: Yep, yep, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Or like I can remember. I can't remember what album it was, but I can remember buying an album, taking it home to listen to and then we like I remember my parents were like, we have we have something to go to in like 20 minutes or something. And I can remember sitting there thinking, ok do I put on listen, like the first two tracks or do I wait till I get homesick and listen to the whole thing? And I waited. You know, because there was something about that experience. And even now I find myself, you know, fast forward and, you know, I mean, it just did it. It's I find myself with some of those bad habits a little bit that I wish I didn't, necessarily...but it is what it is. Joe: Yes. Well, and two other things you touched upon that I know you. You brought it up and it's something that I deal with. But I took a position a long time ago and I started Onstage, that I actually don't hire anyone that runs tracks. And I did it purely for the fact that I didn't want any musicians being put out of work on basically my watch for lack of a better term. Richard: Oh, that's awesome. Joe: So that's just the position I took. And I don't have anything, you know, like there's a like I had a corporate gig. So when I say that, it's really like the local type stuff. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to put a single guy in a resort and put a bass player and drummer out of work because he walks in with bass and drums on tracks and back and backup vocals. And, you know, these other people are sitting home and not working. But the caveat with that is if I there's a corporate band that I hired out of Montreal, Canada, who had amazing tracks that they had built from scratch for themselves. Now, the difference between them is that every single track that they had, there was literally an instrument onstage playing it. So all it was for was for the thickness of the sound. Richard: Sure, sure. Right. Joe: There was literally not one sound on those tracks that did not exist as a human being on the stage. Richard: Right. See, and I think that you're hitting on something to me that's really important, which is intent. Like, I think that gets lost in all of this because we're so we're so caught up in the spectacle. Or the site. You know, I was just at a wedding not too long ago for for one of my nephews and it was interesting because the band, the band was they were good. This is back in Ohio where I grew up, but it was lots of tracks. And it was interesting the way, you know, I'm sitting there picking the thing apart because that's where my head goes. But the rest of my family's just enjoying the sound. You know, almost to the point where, like I've seen deejay's lately, do a thing, oh, sorry, my son's come in and Joe: Hmm Richard: Interrupt Joe: Hmm, hmm, Richard: Here Joe: Hmm, Richard: For a second. Joe: That's Richard: We have Joe: Totally Richard: To Joe: Fine. Richard: Apologize. My apologies, Joe. Joe: No, Richard: That's Joe: It's all Richard: My Joe: Good. Richard: Ex, Gray. He's gone and he's gone in for your drumming job. Joe: All right, perfect. Richard: His no, but I think I'm, you know, like deejay's lately, you see them like they'll travel with a drummer. And I actually think that's a really good thing. You know, it's, it's, it is a little bit in the other direction, because I actually I respect that decision you've made and I actually I did not realize that that's awesome. And I think, I think the world of professional musicians would be better off if more of the owners of these companies, such as yourself, took a stance like you do. But on the other hand, you come from this as a player. So you have a you know, I think some of this is, you know, that battle. You know what that's, you understand on a different level. And nothing against promoters, managers and anybody else out there but a lot of them don't. Is my as a you know, they're well-meaning, but they don't you know, they don't get it. You know. Joe: Yeah, we've talked about this a lot. You know that the success of what happened with my booking agency is the fact that I take the position and I also have the business acumen part of it. So I'm kind of a hybrid in a way where I can understand what I have to deliver to the end client and how professional all of that has to be and at the same time, I have to put my self in the position of the performers or performer, either one. And that, you know, when it's really hot outside, they need shade and if it's too hot, it's just impossible to perform outside in Arizona. And yet, because we live in Arizona and it's the desert, you know what? It gets freaking cold in the wintertime. So, and the fact that other than a singer who then has to worry about catching some sort of cold or bronchitis or something, that all the musicians use their fingers and as soon as your fingers freeze up, the performance goes downhill and everyone's upset and it just doesn't make for a good... So in our contracts, it's very in-depth about, you know, needing shade and needing heaters in the winter and then if it's too hot or too cold, that has to be moved inside. And we, had ad nauseum, I could talk about all Richard: No, Joe: This, Richard: Of course. Joe: You know, circumstances, but that's the approach that I took. Richard: But it's interesting, too, because like as you're as you're describing all of us, I keep coming to the word legacy like like like your own sort of personal legacy and all of this like, you know, and I've known you now for years. So I kind of I feel like I, I. I can say this maybe with a little bit of insight, if you like. I know you to be like you need to be able to sleep at night like you don't like it. But that's important. Like, look, I know that, you know, some of that's just because you couldn't send somebody on a gig that you yourself wouldn't feel comfortable taking, which I think is important, because, again, I think, you know, again, I deal with a lot of younger musicians, you know, a lot of teenagers, lot of 20 somethings with, you know, with the the college stuff folks that I work with, too. And, you know, you do have to kind of be aware, you know, the pay to play thing that goes on a lot. I see a lot of younger musicians that get really excited over gonna get this gig at blah blah, blah, blah plays. That's awesome! Can you buy a ticket? Because we have to sell 200 of them Joe: Yeah, Richard: To get Joe: Yeah. Richard: The opening spot. I'm thinking to myself, I know I get it. I mean, I you know, I understand there are costs and everybody needs to be able to make a living and provide for themselves and their families. And I really do understand that. But it's, there's something off putting about like, like to me, I feel like art's disposable enough, like it's treated almost like a fast food meal sometimes that, that going into that world, I don't know. I just, I just feel like, you know, one of the things I'm always telling kids is, you know. To me and this is this has always been my approach, and if I ever decide that I want to get myself out of this studio environment here where I noodle around, which I might, you know, in my midlife extended crisis of who knows what the heck's going on right now. I actually had plans and then the COVID thing kind of hit. But that's a separate conversation, I suppose. But no, but to think about, you know. We look at gigs, I think, especially younger musicians, they look at gigs in this context of, I have to get the gig for the exposure and the, quote, "fame." But I also equally need the money from the gig, and I think that that's in some ways, the problem. Everybody's got to eat, everybody needs to. I get, I understand that. But I do think that when you can eliminate either one or the other from the equation, you actually give yourself more opportunities. Joe: Yeah, it's. Richard: You know, like if you can, you know, and now I realize I'm in a very unique situation. I could take a gig or not just for the joy of the gig. And then one of the reasons why I started to think about I should really start playing out again just for my own sense of self and to noodle around with this not looping looper thing, to be perfectly honest with you in front of people, was because I realized I don't really care if I make any money doing a gig. Of course, I would love to get some cash, you know, some money in my pocket for for for performing. But at the same time, it's like you priority, you know what what matters? And I think that that's part of it, you know, especially now, you know, because there isn't you know, it's really tough. As you know, being a gigging musician is really brutal and obviously right now it's basically impossible, Joe: All right. Richard: You know, with with the situation we're in. But I do think. Like, it's funny, like I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of my, my students about the fact that I know and just a lot of people in general. There are some you know, this is horrible right now. I mean, it just it is devastating the live music industry, which is like, what, eight billion dollars annually or something at a minimum is just devastated right now. And all of the ripple effect of it is, is just it's gutting. But I do think there is also some good possibly to come out of this. The number of people I talk to, younger people that are so excited at the notion of when I can go see another show, like the appreciation for it. You know, like when you're younger and like you can go to any show you want, anytime you want, basically because you've got all your income is basically disposable and, you know, whatever else or even if it's not but you can you can seriously prioritize it. You know, you not to worry about house and car and bubble on food. And I know some kids do, I'm, I'm speaking generalities, but just in general. Joe: Yeah. Richard: When that's been removed now. It is so interesting, the number of conversations I've had with kids that are like, WOW!, I'm just so appreciative of when I'll be able to do that again. Or, or the realization that that because we would we talk about it all the time and might within my classes, like, OK, you go to that show. I don't care what show it is. That person onstage, even if it's a soloist, isn't the only person involved in you seeing that show. They just aren't. There's no circumstance where it's just them. And you start to really now understand how it all changes, you know? You know, or not changes but how, I mean, it's gone right now, you know, and they're talking about 2021 before major tours happen again, major festivals and things like that. I want to get all the pressing and down on stuff. But but Joe: Oh, Richard: I think. But I mean, it's like you don't already know this. I'm sure you. Joe: I have. I have tickets to see the Doobie Brothers and the Eagles. Yeah. And and that the Eagles, I think, was supposed to happen in April. That's been delayed, I think, until October or December and you know, there's a good chance they're all going to be moved until 2021 to just Richard: Yeah, Joe: Me. Richard: It. Joe: No one's gonna want to go to a concert and sit, you know, six feet apart from the person they went with and sit, you know, have every other row with someone, it's just it would be weird Richard: Well, and Joe: Because. Richard: Not to even some more paranoid, but like I've been reading about different things about like I guess they did a study recently about that choir that had that rehearsal before anybody realized it was a pandemic. But then like 40 out of the 60 people that were in the choir wound up getting tested. They're testing positive. Joe: Oh, wow. Richard: And they you know, I mean, it's a horrible tragedy, I think like two or three of them passed away from it and the whole circumstance was awful and they were going off of all the information they had, which at the time was nothing. And I mean, the whole thing is a terrible tragedy. But out of that, they recreated the circumstances. They obviously didn't infect people again, but they started to look at how singing and things of that nature, what it does to the transmission of a disease, you know, of a virus of this nature and then you think about people that like an event where they're shouting or screaming or singing along and all this other stuff. And you just think to yourself, you know, how is this going to look? Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know what we know? I don't know. It's it's, a it's an interesting. If it wasn't so devastating to the to people that I personally know and just to the industry that I'm aware of and the ripple effects of all of that, it would be just fascinating. But instead, it's just I mean, it's just. Joe: Yes. Richard: It is really. It just makes me really sad and I'm really grateful, like I feel weird sitting in a studio talking to you right now because I feel like almost like I'm, I'm unintentionally flexing and I don't mean to be. It's just, you know. I never thought my life musically would be in a place where I could feel musically secure more than most musicians out there in the world. That is such a bizarre moment of clarity for me. I almost feel obligated to be making more music right now. Not because anybody needs to hear it or that it'll be any good, but almost because I feel like if I don't, I'm being incredibly selfish, that I have the option to do it and I'm not Joe: Right. Richard: Taking advantage of it. Joe: A. Richard: I feel like, you know. You can believe this, but I feel like I would just do like such an ass, like if Joe: Now I get it. Richard: I feel like, I feel like I believe in karma. And I just, I just feel like I have I have an obligation, especially I'm about to head into summer, which changes up my teaching obligations and my, you know, Joe: Yes. Richard: Obligations of that nature. And running the studios are going to be very different for the foreseeable future, at least. Joe: Yes. Richard: Wrote Joe: And it's then Richard: permanent excuse Joe: It's like, no, yeah. No. And I get it. And it's in a lot of our talent is struggling. You know, that that I personally know and had, had helped to get a fair amount of work that they, you know, at times where they don't have work and they're struggling just to put food on the table and pay their car payment, keep a roof over their head. They now are sort of forced into possibly going into debt to buy a webcam and a microphone and and learn, you know, some sort of software if need be, or if they just end up going live on Zoom or Facebook or any of the streaming platforms. But, you know, they're putting in there they're Venmo and PayPal handles as a virtual tip jar just to try to make any sort of money. Richard: Yeah, anything is Joe: And Richard: Anything. Joe: Yeah, Richard: Mm Joe: And Richard: Hmm. Joe: It's it's really tough. So, yeah, I keep brainstorming on ways to try to figure out a way to help. And I haven't come up with it yet. I but I'm working on it. It's not like I'm sitting here, I'm not you know, I'm lucky enough that I had a business where because at one point I was the seven day week musician, you know, I was playing, you remember, and Richard: I do. Joe: That's all I Richard: I Joe: Did Richard: Do. Yeah. Joe: Before. Richard: Yeah. You were impossible to get a hold of because it would always be like a message back, like dude I'll call you later, I'm on, I'm like, you know, 17 gigs today. Joe: Yeah, right. Yeah. But so I get it. Again, we go back to. I've I've lived it and I understand where it's all coming from. Now I just have to figure a way to help and so that's a struggle for me. But that's that's a whole like you said, it's a whole different conversation. And the one last piece that you touched upon that I don't want to forget is that in the conversation I had with Nate Morton, the drummer from The Voice, there's a connector in L.A. that you may or may not have heard of that that I knew when I wanted to, you know, possibly get a tour. A guy named Barry Squire and Barry is basically the music matchmaker out there. So if Cher is looking for a band, Barry will put out the notice that Cher is about to go on tour and they need this, this and this. Same thing with Pink or any of those, Barry was the guy to basically piece these bands together in L.A. for these big tours. Richard: Interesting, Joe: And Richard: I did. Joe: And so now the listing and Barry puts these listings up now on, on Facebook and it's obviously become a lot easier as part of the discussion I had with Nate, where it used to be, hey, you go to this executive's office and you pick up a C.D. or tape, you learn these three songs on it, you come to this studio/soundstage on the Saturday at 1:00, you play the songs and we'll let you know kind of thing. Now, Barry posts these things on Facebook and its he post the requirements. And, you know, everyone has to be pretty much for the most part, 25 or younger, you know, there's there's no none of these things that are going to take all these old dudes like us out on tour. Richard: Right. Joe: Her Richard: Right Joe: Or me Richard: Now, of course. Joe: Anyhow. Richard: No, no, no, no, no, I'm right there with you. I'm Joe: But Richard: With you. Joe: But the instead of it being the old style that you and I are used to, which is, you know, bass, drums, maybe two guitars, keys and a couple of back, backup singers or maybe a horn section. Now it's guitar, drums and a multi instrumentalist that knows Ableton. So it's, it's that and Barry and Nate were talking, they went to lunch a few weeks ago. They'll always be a drummer because the visual part of it, of of that makes it look like it's a band. So that that one seat, you know, thankfully, has not been necessary, eliminated as much as the others. But it's just so weird and Nate and I were talking was like, I mean, I know I, I don't know Ableton anywhere near that I could say I could do it to go get a gig and neither does Nate. But that's the state of things right now. And then, and then Nate's talking and he's like, and if the band becomes, you know, popular and there's more money in the budget, they don't turn around and then start adding bass and guitar and keys that they add more production, they add dancers, they are they whatever. It's just it's so weird to me. Richard: Well, yes, the idea of a show, it's different, you know. That's why, that's why it still comes back to me of this idea of playing. And I think that, I don't know, Like like, do you still sit down to play just for the joy of playing? Joe: I, I do here and there, but nowhere near as much as I should. Richard: Well, nobody ever does that as much as they should. Joe: Yeah. And it's like we Richard: But. Joe: Played a gig last Wednesday and we played out in the parking lot at an assisted living complex for Richard: Oh, Joe: The Richard: Cool. Joe: For the residents because these elderly people had not been out of this place for the last two months or whatever. Richard: Oh, Joe: They're Richard: My Joe: Just Richard: Gosh. Joe: Going stir crazy. Richard: Sure, Joe: So Richard: Sure. Joe: There was four different jazz combos and we were setup out in the parking lot where the people could come out on their balconies and Richard: Oh, Joe: We played to Richard: How Joe: Them. Richard: Cool. Joe: Yeah, it was fun and it was cool. And at the end, like all the guys in the band are like, God, I so misplaying, like I just the hell with practicing, I just want to play because there's that interaction on stage and anticipating where that that other player is going to next and just being able to interact and lock in with somebody. And because I left the gig going I really got to practice. And everybody's like, no, we're just gotta play, we just it's more fun just playing. So, Richard: Yeah, yeah, Joe: Yeah. Richard: And that's I think that I think there's something about that visceral live element. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: We it's funny when, when when, when the COVID shut down happened, it sort of sent obviously a lot of chaos into the whole educational system, especially into arts education, which regardless of titles and everything else, I am basically running an arts program. You know, call it what you want, but it's an arts program. And it's been it was interesting what wound up happening very much and that's why I truly thought I'm going to get all these kids that are just going to send me you know, here's this recording I worked on at home, here's this work and I've got a lot of those. I mean, that's. And it's great. But the lot of them, first of all, a lot of them, you know, you started to really see the demographic of the students and who had what available to them. Joe: Yeah, Richard: Lots of posturing and Joe: Yeah. Richard: In high school certainly about that and that's fine. But I don't begrudge because any we've distributed gear as much as possible in that. But it was, you know, was interesting how a lot of them really enjoyed the live streams we did more than anything else. So we wound up doing our big annual end of year concert anyway. But we did it online on Zoom. It was clunky we were subjected to all kinds of elements related to streaming and what mics they had and Wi-Fi connectivity and everything else and yet in the moment, the fact that it wasn't taped, that we, you know, like Joe: Yeah. Richard: I had some kids that played some sessions, that we just kind of watch the sessions on the screen, which was still cool and it was really awesome. I had one group that actually did go in and they pre-recorded their parts and filmed themselves while they did it and then we spliced it together into kind of like a live video and and whatnot. But most of it was a kid with their guitar, at the piano or whatever it happened to be singing. You know, in some cases it was just through their phone and imperfect, absolutely! But, it it had that kind of because you knew it was right then. And there wasn't a well, we're going to go back and fix it in post kind of option. It was interesting that, that, you know, you still got a little bit of that same charge. I mean, it was different because obviously you don't get the you know, you don't hear the applause in the same Joe: Yeah, Richard: Way that you're hopefully Joe: Yeah. Richard: Getting you know, there wasn't really production in terms of lights and stuff that we normally would do. But, you know, because I asked a lot of them, you know, should we be prerecording this and some of them are like, yeah, that would be better for me. But that was because of nervousness that they always have had inherently. You know, these are kids that don't like to get up on stage, even though they're wonderfully talented. They just may be, you know, at that age, they're, they're they get freaked out by it or whatever. But the vast majority wanted it live and in the moment, warts and all. And I found that to be very fascinating. Joe: Yeah, Richard: And Joe: That's cool. Richard: We wound up, you know. We did a tie. I think we did. I think we did like seven or eight live broadcast. We're still doing them. We've done a bunch of podcasts, but it's been interesting watching the students. Their response, and maybe it's not an entirely, like I'd like, I don't think that I can, I always look at my own students and I go, I probably shouldn't be lumping you in with every other teenager is like a generality because they tend to be a little bit of a unique and and if we're being honest, I probably do have a bit of an influence on their approach Joe: Right. Richard: In that regard. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Hopefully a good way. But I do think it's interesting, like what you're saying, that there's something about a live response, even if it's remote, even if it's from streaming, it still beats the just watching video. Joe: Yeah, Richard: There's something. And organic and visceral about it. Joe: Yep. Richard: Which is Joe: All Richard: Important. Joe: Right, well, you know, since we are now, you know, sort of talking about the graduation piece, I wanted to...so I always refer to it as CMAS and I think that's probably what most of you do. But it's Creative Musical Arts and Science program, correct? OK,  So this is happening at Arcadia High School here in, are we, this is considered Phoenix. You're right down the street from me, right? So it's Phoenix. Richard: Yes, well, I'm yeah. Joe: The border is. I don't know. Richard: Yeah, it's Scottsdale Unified School District, but it's technically in greater Phoenix we're like I want to say, what's 48 Street and Indian School and what is it? 56th is the line into Scottsdale. Joe: Ok. Richard: I don't actually know. I mean, I've been at that school for, gosh, 20 plus years, if you can believe that...long time. Joe: Yeah. Richard: I don't know. I was long before my time how they managed to carve out that section of, you know why it's Scottsdale and not in Phoenix Union, I don't know. Joe: All right. OK. So you just mentioned 20 some years ago, so when did you get to this school? Richard: Ok, so let me see. How do I explain this? 1990 or something so I'm at the U Of A Joe: Ok. Richard: I have finished my second master's degree in orchestral conducting, which I still miss, I, you know, if only for not having enough time in the day. Basically, I start working in Tucson at one of the high schools and a middle school, I've got an orchestra program that I love. I am always still for years and years and when I did it, I grew up in the Midwest. So as an undergrad and as a grad student and at different times and in different places, I was always gigging as a very mediocre drummer. I like to say I was, I was sort of the, the, would you want to call it? I brought the game down for everybody else, But um..but, you know, and so I done some touring, nothing, nothing fancy. So but I had done a lot of it, I loved the studio experience and also their stuff. But there was no at the time at least available to me, you only were really able to do that kind of independently and on your own. And there was very much this sense of, you know, we were we were talking before about two different music industries well, there were sort of like two different musical experiences. You had the experience you could have as a student. I mean, you know, you know, it was one thing and there were in it, it was great. I mean, don't get me wrong, I have such fond memories of growing up. And I still every now and then I am lucky enough, I guess. I've talked to my old high school band director a few times, he's long since retired. He drives trains now, of all things Joe: Wow. Richard: Which he just loves. Old, old military, retired guy, sweetheart of a guy, brilliant musician, far more, I didn't realize his musical chops. This is another problem I have like I hadn't like it takes me a while to realize something in the moment. Oh my gosh. The level of lost opportunity on my count two, like not tap into more of his experience as he came out of a military band experience but he had this incredibly open view of what music was for, even if he had a particular love of a certain style and what not. But I'm I've Joe: Wait, Richard: Got this. Joe: Before before you leave, that point is just amazing that you just said that because I look at you and go, God, if I only had a band teacher in high school like you. My teacher, and God rest his soul, I think I'm sure he's gone by now but I was just there doing it, collecting the paycheck, Richard: Sure, Joe: Going through the Richard: Sure. Joe: Motions. Just it was just the worst. And. Richard: And it can't. Yeah, I mean, I. I don't know, I can't speak to that. I mean, the educator in me says, you know, at a certain point you can it's very easy to get disenchanted if you get wrapped up in it and you never know. I mean, you know, the further back you go. People that I get asked all the time, you know, did you have something like CMAS when you were in high school or whatever? And I can't tell if they're sometimes I wonder if they're being sarcastic, if they've completely misjudged my age, if, you know, I don't even know where it's coming from. But, but the truth of the matter is, is that it's not a matter of if I did or not, it wasn't even an option. It just literally wasn't a possibility. I can't, I can't fault Pete Metzker was his name, is his name or Jeff Bieler or Bob Wagner. I literally remember all of these people...West Frickey. They were brilliant! They didn't, if they, if you would come to them and said, we have this idea and you described what I built with the CMAS Program, what I designed, honestly, I think they would have been like, OK, that's really cool! We can't, like we, if we could figure out how to do that in the architecture or the in, the in, the the infrastructure, if you will, of music education at the time, I really think they probably would have been like, OK, sure! Let's do it! I don't think it was an option. I mean, I really think that, you know, there's a prospective element. I'm not that old but it does remind me a little bit of what I have conversations with students about classical music, for example. And I always tell them the same thing. Richard: You know, you can't, you can't fault Beethoven or Mozart and say you don't like their music because there's no electric guitar. Because there wasn't even electricity at the time. You can't you know, you're missing the whole point. You don't think, like that can't be your thing. In the same way when I have students who are very, very much of a more and this is fine too, but we'll say a more traditional mindset. I'm like, you can't look at a kid who wants to do like turntables and say that's not a legitimate musical instrument. You do it, for the same exact reason because you've got to deal with intent, you just you just have to. And that's the thing that like I said, I look back on those that band director and those teachers, all of them throughout all of my school years, as it were. And Dave Vroman, I mean, I could list all these professors throughout, you know, college that some of which I'm still friends with, which is really wonderful too, you know. Sorry, I, I have to I have to namedrop Molly Slaughter, I don't have anyone to know who she is but just for me, I got to say it karma again, and there's lots of others. Greg Sanders, Steve Heineman I'm gonna shut up now, okay...Ed Kaiser God, we would be here for a long time, but, but all of them would tell you...but, but the thing of his you is the best musicians are about intention. You know, Springsteen walks up onstage with the E Street Band and it's unbelievable and then the band takes a break for a minute and he sits down with just as acoustic guitar and it's unbelievable. Joe: Yeah. Richard: And it's I mean, look, the guy's a genius. And I mean, that's you know, you don't need me to say that. But I think the reason it works in both settings is because of his musical intentions. Joe: Yeah. Richard: It comes out different, of course, it comes out differently when you have more people and you can interact. And again, we go back to that visceral thing, but it's about intent. And I think that's what I've carried with me from all of those people. Joe: Right. Richard: I go on in any case, so I go, I go to Bradley University and become their first music educator, excuse music composition and theory graduate ever out of that university. I don't, I don't know if that's like I have two distinctions being a Bradley, one is I'm the first person ever to receive that degree from that institution, which I'm very proud of and two, I was probably the most arrogant pain in the butt student that's ever been through there in the history of that university's music school. And it was a brilliant place, it was wonderful. They had an old Moog synthesizer, that had been installed by Robert Moog himself. Joe: Oh. Richard: But it unfortunately didn't work. If I could go back now...know, you, you know, you always say if you know, if I knew then what I know now. But they allowed you know, they bought some equipment. We had, you know, an old Mac computer and we were able to do some sequencing and learn some bit. And I just kind of got bit by the bug of it. I just found it so compelling and so interesting. Didn't know what I was doing, had a couple of microphones, couldn't even tell you what they were. Probably a 58, like a beat up condenser, by whom...You know, I want to say there was a, I don't know, I want to say it was like an old Rode or an AKG or something, but it was I mean, we you know, we didn't know what we were doing. But freedom to explore the process. I mean, again, in hindsight, I see all of us greatest gift possible. Graduate, don't know what I'm going to do. So the Youngstown's, I don't know if I'm gone too far back Joe: No, Richard: Or Joe: No, Richard: Not in the story. Joe: No, no, no. Richard: So I'm going to I go to university, so Youngstown State University. Partially out of desperation, partially out of you know, I didn't, I was wandering in sort of like the the desert of my own immaturity and unawareness, you know? I just, I just I had this thought in my head that I was gonna be the next Leonard Bernstein. Not realizing that basically even the next Leonard Bernstein wasn't going to be the next Leonard Bernstein because that world doesn't exist. And it wasn't like people were telling me that but it doesn't, I mean, it just doesn't exist. And and I didn't, I wasn't that guy. I mean, that's, you know, kind of like what you were talking about before, which I disagree with your assessment of your skill set but we can have that conversation off of air sometime. But no, but, but in all seriousness, I mean, you know but I wasn't that guy. I mean, that's just that's a reality, I wasn't that guy. But while I'm in Youngstown, Stephen Gage, who's another one of these sort of like ah ha moment people. I'd done a lit..I'd done some conducting. I even put together for my senior recital at Bradley, I put together my own sort of like mini orchestra of friends just for the heck of it. And I seem to remember Vroman, Dave Vroman, who was head of the music department, and that can be one of the main conductors there, I seem to remember him saying, you know, we could have like. Richard: To help you out with this, like you didn't have to, like, do it covertly here. He's a guy I really did not appreciate nearly as much as I should have at the time, brilliant man, just brilliant, wonderful guy. But anyway, he, um, so but so Steve Gage basically goes, you know, I need a, I, I've got an opportunity for graduate student. And he was the band conductor is like, but you'll also work a little bit with the orchestras as well. And you'll get to do you know, you'll get to conduct and I'll teach you how to and he was my first real conducting teacher that I took seriously. I had taken cond

Sometimes a business can go through the acquisition cycle once, twice, or even more. A deal that was pivotal to our development back 2011 came back through Quiet Light this year and our very own Brad Wayland is here talking to the buyer, Richard Bell, about his recent purchase of a business we originally sold 8 years ago. Throughout his career, Richard Bell has mostly been in the high tech world. He's worked in sales, product development, marketing, business development, and mergers and acquisitions. He stayed mainly on the strategic side of running a business before deciding to make a purchase of his own last year. He started off small, looking to take his breadth of behind-the-scenes knowledge to bat with YUGSTER, the e-commerce business he bought. While Richard's thorough due diligence process may have initially overwhelmed the seller, the two worked well together in the end. Richard did a lot of the work up front, showed the seller he was serious, and greatly reduced the risk for problems once the deal was done. Episode Highlights: How Richard went about the search process and decided to buy this business. Factors that made the purchase good a fit. Who YUGSTER sells to. How the office and staff structure has changed since Richard took over. Richard's SBA purchase choice and how he navigated the process. Advice for anyone considering an SBA purchase. The rebrand and other changes that Richard made with Yugster, now called Until Gone. Successes and growth he's seen since the changes to the site. The software and the technology he's using and how he's are taking advantage of modern applications and platforms. Ways shopify has become the go to e-commerce cart choice for vendors. The biggest challenge Richard has encountered since the acquisition. Words of advice for others looking to delve into the purchase process. Transcription: Mark: One of the darkest periods in the history of Quiet Light Brokerage happened around 2011. I wasn't sure what I was going to do with Quiet Light at that time. And due to some personal situations going on with health issues with a family member of mine I took my eye off the ball of Quiet Light for a little bit of time and found ourselves in a position where frankly we didn't have a lot of money coming in. We had a lot more money going out and not a lot of deal flow at the same time. It was at that point in time when a great listing, a great business literally just fell on my lap and I was able to get that listing on the market, get it sold within a few days or at least found a buyer within a few days and it really represented kind of a life vest for me which really helped in bringing Quiet Light Brokerage profits back off the brink of extinction. One of the great things about this business that I love is seeing some of the companies that we touch early on grow and sometimes come back to us. When I originally started Quiet Light Brokerage my previous company that I'd sold came back through Quiet Light. I sold it again. I actually ended up selling that company a total of three times which was pretty fascinating to do. Today we don't have Joe on the introduction. We have Brad because Brad talked to one of his previous clients; a buyer that just closed an acquisition and they bought the business that served as a life vest for me back in 2011. Brad, how was the conversation with Richard? Brad: You know it's really great. I didn't actually know that background. I think he sent me an email and said hey I've got a lot on my plate. This is a good listing. Do you want to take a peek at it and see if you can put a value on it and help them get it sold? So I didn't know that backstory I just knew that you had sold it once previously. So it's one of those situations where we had a guy that was in Richard the buyer; we had a guy that was looking for an investment. He had inquired on a little tiny listing that I had out at the time it's like a hundred thousand dollars and came to the conclusion that it wasn't a good fit. But I had picked up on that this guy was like a serious M&A guy. I could already tell from the get-go like why is this guy looking at a hundred thousand dollar listing? This guy supposed must be looking at much larger listings than this. So I was a little surprised and ended up floating in the details of this listing that we had for a daily deal site that kind of needed someone with the ability to kind of handle a lot of moving parts. I felt like he seemed like the perfect personality for it. And so I floated it his way and the next day he sent me an LOI and it was just really smooth sailing from there on out from his side of things. He just was a really great buyer to work with and so I wanted to bring him on the podcast. I think he's done several things that have been really interesting with that company. Mark: How is this due diligence process different than say your average buyer out there? Brad: Yes. So when we do these deals they always look a little bit different. After we get an LOI why we are involved sometimes a lot in the due diligence process. Sometimes we're not involved very much at all. We have kind of standard folders and things that people want to look at; bank statements or proofs out of PayPal or your credit card provider. Things like that where people can kind of verify the numbers. In the case with Richard I found out after he got under LOI he had done like 200 million dollars in acquisitions in the corporate world. He was a very seasoned and experienced M&A guy. I can't remember how many transactions he had done but he had been responsible for some very large deals for I think a publicly-traded company. And so he put his diligence request together and he said hey I'm working on my diligence request and I sent them over to the seller. I think the seller about passed out. It was just; there was nothing wrong with it. It was very thorough but when you get these really experienced guys sometimes you think that means it's going to be a piece of cake for the seller but it doesn't always mean that. Sometimes if you've got a seller that's really done it's kind of like hey I'm just ready to move on and I don't want to look at it anymore. It can be a little bit of a challenge. And so we definitely dealt with that a little bit on this one where we've got a really seasoned buyer who had a very nice thorough package of diligence information that he wanted gathered. And then we had a seller that was really ready to be finished. And when he got the packet I think he felt like oh my goodness I just put all this work into getting the listing ready now we're going to go through this diligence process that is way more exhausting than what I did whenever I bought it on the front end. But honestly it was two great guys; the seller was a great seller, the buyer was a great buyer and they worked very well together and I think they've continued to be friends post-transaction. Mark: That the seller that you worked with was the buyer when I sold this business, and he still remains one of my favorite people that I've worked with out at Quiet Light. He is a fantastic guy. I think people sometimes get intimidated especially in the sell-side when they see these really long due diligence lists. But I've learned over the years, and I don't know how you feel about this Brad, but I've learned over the years that a thorough due diligence list is a good sign. It's usually a sign that the buyer is extraordinarily serious because look you have to generate all the information the buyer has to digest that information and that's really tough. And it also reduces the risk after the sale. Because if they're doing a thorough due diligence the chances of something coming back on you after are pretty small because they've done their homework. Brad: Yeah I totally agree with that. I actually tell my sellers all the time if they are complaining about the due diligence process I always tell them the work you're putting in now is saving you headache later. If you're going to go ahead and give them all the things that they need today they're not going to be the type of buyer that's coming back to you and saying hey man I really need you to help me with this or that I need to take advantage of these hours that we carved into the APA and train me on these different things. And I definitely have seen the transactions where they don't ask for much and then I find out later that the buyers had to come back to the seller several times asking for things and it seems like it is a better situation to just kind of lay all the cards on the table and do the work upfront and kind of have the ability to be done with the business and kind of transition to your next thing. Mark: That's a lot of chitchat on our part let's go ahead and listen to the interview. Brad: Welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. I'm your host today Brad Wayland and we are joined today by Richard Bell. Hey Richard how are you today? Richard: I'm doing great, thanks. Nice to see you. Brad: Good. Yeah. So we've been doing this series of podcasts on folks that have bought something from Quiet Light and now we're kind of following up with them; seeing how things went, learning about why they bought, what they learned early on, what the challenges are and so today's kind of one of those profiles. And this one has a really unique kind of proposition that I want to kind of get into later but we usually start off by just getting some background. We don't do like these fancy intros. We let our guests kind of describe themselves. So Richard give the profile of what your career has looked like and tell me kind of where you've been. Richard: Sure, I'm happy to. I've done a variety of different roles which I think is one of the reasons that set me up well to do or set me up to do well with this job of running this business. I mostly worked in the high tech world with one particular company called Akamai Technologies. And within that company, I had spent time in sales roles, technical roles, product development, marketing, a lot of time in business development, and mergers and acquisitions with business development side and really partnership focused. And the roles I had after I left Akamai were very similar positions where I had a chance to really look at strategic issues, touch on a lot of different things across the whole breadth of running a business so it set me up well for the position I'm in now. Brad: Yeah that's great. I remember; I think you had inquired on another listing that I had. I think it was a pretty small listing and we got talking about it and you gave me some background I think in the time you told me like hey I ran M&A for a big corporation for a long time and gave me some pretty staggering numbers in terms of the dollars of deals you had helped close for your business. And when I heard it I was thinking about this potential listing it was coming up for this business called Yugster which I thought was the strangest name. I was not familiar with it even though we had sold it in the past but Yugster was Yours Until Gone and it was Yugster.com. And Mark Daoust the founder of Quiet Light called me and said hey we sold this business like years and years ago and now the guy that we sold it to is interested in selling it again and asked me if I would like to take a look at it. So when you started talking and I could hear your operational background I thought this might be a good fit for you and I think I just said hey I've got an idea I want to kind of float to you and I feel like that's kind of how we started it. Is that what you remember? Richard: Absolutely. I mean I started looking for a business probably six or nine months before you and I ever even touched base. Part of that was me doing homework on sort of what was out there and how to look at these businesses that were a lot smaller than the kinds of things that I'd looked at before where we're talking sale prices in the nine figures; so very large businesses, large multiples is in stack. And so I wasn't quite sure how to go about buying frankly a smaller business. And there's a lot of chat out there. I mean you know that and you know there's a lot of brokers out there who would just put a listing out for anything. So you end up learning quite a bit about what's really there and what's meaningful just by going through that process. And we did look at a business for another e-com site that you had posted up there and I think we had decided it was a little bit too seasonal for what we were doing. And then you threw the Yugster thing out there. I think it hadn't even gone public and I'm like Yugster? As a marketing guy that was like just you know what that is. But yeah that's exactly the story and so I think when I got my teeth around that one it actually made a lot of sense for me. I was kind of excited about it. Brad: Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong but so the business model was it had been a drop shipping business I think since day one and it still had a very impressive; you're looking at it and I'm looking at the sign and I'm thinking this looks kind of antiquated. It looks a little bit like it's seen its better days. But when I looked at the results and we're talking about a low eight-figure business that was on some slightly declining trends and I could just tell that the light bulb kind of went off for you about like I think I might better inject some life into this and I clearly could see that you'd be able to handle the size of a business that was from what you had done before. But what specifically about Yugster was interesting to you? Like when you first looked at it what were you thinking like this is a good fit for me because of what? Richard: Like I said I went through this process where I started talking to some different brokers about a variety of different businesses to help me get educated about what's out there. There are a lot of businesses out there especially in the e-commerce space that are really it is an Amazon store. Somebody who is importing some private label from China and then they're essentially listing it on Amazon and having Amazon do fulfillment and so forth. It doesn't, and the issue I got to is that it doesn't really leverage my skills. There is not a lot of value that you can add to some of those kinds of businesses. Maybe you get a few more distribution channels or what have you. What I saw with Yugster was really interesting to me that it was a fully operating business. Yes, it was drop ship but they had relationships with a sizable number of vendors. They had a functioning platform. They were not dependent on other marketplaces like Amazon which could be all over the place or eBay or whatever. They had their own storefront. It had been established I think in 2005 or early 2006 when it went live. So it had a long life which is really important in terms of longevity and the brand and so forth. And the other thing that I; the two other things that I really looked at and I liked about it, one was it had a core staff. There were talented people that had a good resume and seem to know what they were doing. And it also had a really solid customer base. They had a loyalty program they've run for many years. These were customers that had been buying from Yugster repeatedly and they had it tiered up and they were kind of passionate about the business. And these sort of strong customer base, loyal customer base that's established, the staff is there and a technology platform that I thought I could really make a difference with because I do have a strong tech background; all of those things kind of came together for me and made me want to dive in with Yugster. Brad: Yeah that's interesting. So of course as just kind of a layperson when I go to the site I think of it as like a daily discount kind of idea. I see like maybe a generation ago iPad or MacBook or something like that. Is it retail-focused folks like me or is it more like small businesses that are like hey we need iPads for our production floor? We don't need the latest and greatest we need to get 10 of this. Is it a mix of those types of customers or who really is the customer that comes to this place? Richard: A really good question and it's changed a bit. So the business model just to kind of flesh that out a little bit more for the audience it is a daily deal site. And what that mostly involves is sort of inventory end so people might have a couple hundred or something left and they just want to get rid of it. It could be there's a lot of refurbished product out there that like you're saying is a year or two behind and for most people you need the latest and greatest Apple MacBook Pro or is one that's two or three years old is going to work just fine for you even the things like vacuums and what have you. And so there's a range of products but we get them; we typically really focus on running them for a period of a few days. We sell out the inventory and then we move on to the next product and cycle through it. Our customers have; we're historically very male. So 70, 80% male buyers; the profile would be sort of bargain hunters, people that are somewhat shopaholic shows up in the mix as well. Since we've moved the business over to; I took it over last year and we kind of modified the site and the product mix and we're actually closer to 50-50 male-female at this point because we have a lot more home goods than we used to. And one of the things so your point about selling to businesses I've actually noticed a significant increase in the number of orders from businesses. We really used to have only a small handful but now I've seen things like schools. I've seen a school order like 20 Chrome books from us. They're going to use them with smaller kids and they just don't need the latest and greatest. They just need a laptop. Ipads, as you suggested, is another great example, I've seen a bunch of those go out for businesses that are needing it but the latest and greatest current generation isn't required for what they're doing. They're doing order entry or checking people out kind of thing. Yeah but it's definitely shifted and I think some of that is the changes that we've made in the site and the business as well which I think we'll get into this. Brad: Yeah. You mentioned the staff I kind of want to jump to that. So from what I recall you're in Washington are you in the Seattle area? Richard: I am yeah. Brad: And then this business was in Salt Lake I believe and there was a physical office there. And how many employees were in that office? Richard: There was about nine. Brad: Okay, and so what have you done with that? Have you kept that office there, did you retain that staff, what have you done in terms of changing that since you bought the business? Richard: Great question; so because of my background being in tech most of my career the majority of the people that I manage were actually remote, some as far away as China or India in different roles that I have. And so I'm very personally very comfortable running a remote staff. And so one of the things that we did is actually close that office because it wasn't adding much in the way of value and home office everybody. So the whole organization now is based out of their own homes and we use a lot of EG Suite technologies or a lot of video meetings, audio calls, whatever, Slack to communicate and stay very, very highly interactive between us. But everybody just works from home in their jammies or sweats or whatever [inaudible 00:18:56.1] worked. So I think you asked about did we keep the staff and we kept 100% of the employees. We gave everybody a job offer as they came over because we wanted to really evaluate what they could do with different leadership and sort of reenergizing the business. And we made some with that some staffing turnover since people that pursued other opportunities or maybe weren't the right fit for us where we were going. But I'd say about 80% of the staff is the same as what it was when I acquired the business. Brad: Yeah that's really interesting you know at Quiet Light we run a distributed team as well and so we've got eight brokers in the States, we've got two overseas, but it is an interesting timeframe that we live in where I actually go to an office. If you see behind me my house is not behind me but I have five children at home so that can be challenging at the house. I choose to rent an office but I do think it is interesting in this day and age that remote works so well and I feel like as a general rule people are happier when they can choose where they go to work. Richard: And I will actually tell you that the last round of hiring we did was for some new buyers that we brought into the business and the ability for both of them to work from home was actually a big competitive advantage in getting them to come on board. Brad: Yeah, that's really interesting. So we don't really use this as like a sales pitch but as you're sitting there talking about what you guys do; I mean our listeners, we have a lot of listeners to this podcast and a lot of them are small entrepreneurial shops, some are like PE firms and you've got your like solo entrepreneurs so I'm just kind of curious where do our listeners kind of fit in to the kind of product mix that you guys offer at your business? Like what are the types of things that they might be most interested in that you sell on a daily basis now? Richard: Sure. I mean I would say for that kind of audience you're probably looking at mostly the technology and maybe some of the home goods for example. So on the tech side, we sell all kinds of computers; Windows and Macs, desktops, laptops, Chrome books, iPads, even phones. Obviously, that technology suite is something that just about every entrepreneur or business will need to some degree. If you're somebody who's looking for like I said the absolute latest and greatest it's not going to be on our side and I'll be upfront like we don't sell the latest Mac books at all. Almost all of our tech in that sense is refurbished and you pay for what you get. I mean if you're buying a refurbished laptop and you're buying 300 bucks for a Mac Book it's going to be older. But for an awful lot of people that are simply doing email that kind of thing that works just fine. And we also have a range where we go from let's say a Mac Book at 300 all the way up for a Mac Book at 1,200. So you get to choose sort of what level you want and what you really need. But there are generally some pretty good bargain prices in terms of the type of technology and look that people are after. On good side, I mean coffee bar if you've got a home office everybody needs coffee. You can't function without it. So one of our vendors; an awesome vendor is the exclusive factory refurbished provider for Ninja products. Ninja makes some incredible home appliances. There was this great little ninja coffee bar that's sort of a single serving fresh ground coffee maker and they sell like crazy. People love them. And so yeah I think there are some tech products and some home products that would be a good fit for any business person. Brad: Yeah that's great. I want to get into some of the changes that you've made but one thing I want to kind of back up to that kind of struck me and not something I've seen that often was your deal structure. I remember talking to you and kind of floating you the price and you said yeah I'm a cash buyer so we can leverage that; no problem. And then when we got to LOI and you called me and said hey I think I'm going to utilize some SBA on this and I'm going to put down way more than what they'll require but I've got an SBA lender that I want to tap into. I just kind of like for you to explain to our listeners kind of as much as you're willing to share about that process what you're thinking was and like basically how you kind of navigated that SBA process? Richard: Yeah actually that's a really good question because I guess it is a little bit unique. I did have the cash going in to pay 100% of it down, the issue for me really was just in one-word flexibility; being able to conserve my capital, put down enough to be meaningful so the SBA approval process was a no brainer. But not be running really tight on sort of the amount of down payment I did but keeping and a good chunk of reserve capital because there's always been sort of a possibility that I might acquire other businesses that I would add on to this as well and you want to have that flexibility in place. And I also wanted to make sure that once I had acquired the business I didn't want to have to use all the capital for the acquisition. Obviously, you need operating capital and you would build that into any plan. But I also wanted to be in a situation where I had enough investment capital inside the business that I could invest in the company and make the changes that I wanted. And so when I looked at the overall sort of combination of things it made a lot of sense to sort of mix us up a little bit and take; I would have to look at the paperwork again but I think we did something like 40% down cash and 60% finance. And what that essentially did for me is mean that within the business I had a good chunk of capital available to pay for all the technology changes and enhancements that I wanted to make to move the business forward because we knew we would need to do that going. Brad: Yeah I found it very interesting; so SBA we have just a massive number of people reaching out to us looking for SBA eligible businesses and wanting to talk to us about it. And I will say that one of the common pitfalls that I think that our buyers kind of find themselves in is trying to maximize the SBA situation for themselves. So a person thinks okay on the high-level point an SBA loan can be a 10% down kind of situation. That's in the absolute most ideal scenario would be a 10% down. So someone has $250,000 in capital that they can put down on a business and so their mind immediately goes to okay then I'll buy a 2 ½ million dollar business. And what I've kind of found over time doing these SBA deals is that those end up being a tough deal. If anything goes even remotely wrong then now all of a sudden the deal is falling apart; maybe the valuation doesn't come back high enough, maybe there's more inventory than was expected and SBA can't cover the inventory. So actually you were the first person that I've had to do that and I've had a couple of people do it since but you're the first person that came and said hey I can pay cash but I'm going to go ahead and use SBA. And honestly, I think SBA has a lot of advantages and a lot of disadvantages. The advantages are from a broker standpoint it really opens up our buying pool. We can offer something as an SBA. We really open up the number of buyers that can come in. But for the seller, SBA can be a grind to get through especially in these situations where people are putting down the minimum amount. I think with what you did was interesting because I never got a single phone call from the SBA lender in your deal. I never heard anything about it. You kept me updated on kind of where things are going and that is not typical for what we do with at Quiet Light. A lot of times we're introducing them to an SBA lender and then we're getting the play by play and we're delivering information back to the sellers about what's going on. In your case you said I'm going to use SBA. I thought you put down 50%; maybe you put down 40% I can't remember, but you put down a big chunk and just said I want the flexibility and I think that really proved to show just a really wise move on your part from a business decision and it didn't hold us up at all. We literally got that thing closed right on time where we were expecting in terms of timing at least the way that I'd kind of set the expectations for our seller. Richard: I would just add to that Brad. I think the advice I'd give anyone considering buying a business is get your house in order. One of the reasons the SBA process on our side went smoothly was because our finances and sort of our credit rating; everything was cleaned up so that there was nothing weird on our credit reports. It was all sort of looking pretty and accounts that needed to be closed or resolved were done. So when the bank looked at things; they look at your credit report, they look at your house, they look at your mortgage, your payment histories you want to be able to give them a very clean robust picture and be able to give it to them boom here it is. And then we also had a very clear picture of the financials and what we were going to do with the business. We gave them a 30-page business plan that essentially laid out here's the financials, here's what we're going to invest in, here's the changes we're going to make, here's the timeline, here's the results and they were conservative. They weren't sort of wild willy-nilly captain. And so between getting our own personal numbers kind of cleaned up; and this is everything just from credit numbers to even just having a nice clean resume. I mean you're applying to SBA and they want to see your business history and what you've done. So you can't take the resume that you use for your job five years ago and just slap it down. It's got to show the bank that you know how to run a business. And so there's a lot of little things that you can do to get ready and so we had those in place before you and I even got into this acquisition process. The other comment I would add about doing the sort of 10% down, I mean we could have gotten approved on a bigger deal at 10% down. I would never have done it in a million years. And part of this maybe comes from my M&A experience which is obviously a lot larger kind of mix. But one thing I learned is that no matter how good you are at diligence, no matter what you know about this particular industry, any business you have is going to have some surprises and it's going to have some ups and downs. And so one of the problems I see with people that would be doing sort of this 10% in sort of right on the bleeding edge you're not going to have enough capital to be really flexible. You're going to struggle with investments and here's, and this is maybe not something that people don't really think about that much but buying a business is stressful. You're running a new business. You're investing. This is potentially your whole income, your life, what you're doing, a good chunk of your personal assets are going to get tied up and it's stressful even if you have tons of money to play with. Putting yourself right on the edge where your finances are squeezed that tight where you're doing 10% down and that's everything that you've got it just adds to the stress level in a way that's not good for running the business. It's not good for you personally on a health basis. So I think if I can look back at it and say what's my advice to people to get through an acquisition process using SBA prepare; good credit cleaned up, get all your documentation in order, get your resume pretty and all that stuff but don't squeeze yourself so tight that you don't have flexibility, you don't have capital to invest, you're going to panic if you have any ups and downs. It's not worth it. That's too much stress when you really want to be thinking clearly, being able to make smart decisions with some perspective on it. You for sure know this Brad it's really hard to make perspective when you're tight on the finances and you're panicking. So all those things factored in sort of where I went to. But I would definitely encourage people to make sure they've got enough of a cushion and flexibility to run their business confidently. Brad: Now I totally share your thoughts on that. And in my operating days that is really exactly how we tried to run the business. If you don't have a good amount of cash on hand it just makes something that's already difficult to do running a business that much more difficult and puts additional strain on you whenever you get some of those unknown kinds of problems that come up. One of the things I remember about you; I actually don't refer to you by name I tell people one time I sold a business to this M&A guy that had done a lot of corporate deals and let me tell you something if you think that diligence folder that you saw today is involved I should show you his because I remember it was a thorough deck of information. You had that thing all laid out perfectly. It was like okay one of the things I think I learned there is the pros have seen everything. So when you laid out that diligence folder and I saw it I was like it was organized, it was great, there was nothing wrong with but it was lot. It was a lot of information. You're very thorough, very detailed, and it kind of makes sense to me that it's gone well for you doing this business. Okay, I want to get into; so I was thinking about doing some podcast episodes and I think I emailed you maybe a month ago and said hey I went to a Yugster and there's no more Yugster. So talk about the rebrand and then let's talk about some other changes that you made. Richard: Yugster had a cult following behind it. And cult followings are great. There's a lot of loyalty that goes into that. But it was not a brand that was going to work well to sort of reach out to a larger audience. And so we, the team; I got the leadership team that was in place one of the first things we did was restructure internally to kind of give them really clean roles and responsibilities in purchasing and marketing because it had all been sort of blurred before. And what we then took off and did is really sit down and think about the kinds of changes we wanted to make in the business. The brand was a big piece of it. And we did really dig in on the idea of keeping the extra brand but we also knew that we needed to give it a refresh, improve the look and feel of the website, and sort of get it to a healthier sort of message and make it more attractive to people. In the end, when we kind of dug through it Yugster as a brand itself wasn't going to scale for us. It wasn't going to bring in a larger audience that we were sort of now starting to pursue and chase. So we spent some time doing; figure out what brands you want to work with, see what domain names are out there. We knew we wanted a dot com. We also knew that we wanted to keep a little synergy with the Yugster. We didn't want to go too far away from it and so as you mentioned, in the beginning, Yugster had become Yours Until Gone and YUG would show up throughout the branding of the site. The loyalty program was called YUG points. There was a lot of YUG that showed up. And so we figured if we kept the Until Gone piece of it that would be a nice connection. And so it turned out that that brand or that domain was actually available for purchase. This is where we made some of our capital investment; it was actually buying that domain name. And it's worked out great. I would say that the marketing team did; it could be a case study frankly in the rebranding going from Yugster to Until Gone. I won't say everything was perfect but it was as good as I've ever seen it done. And what the team put together and it was fantastic. We had a few customers that didn't make it over but the vast majority did. And we went live with the new Until Gone site which we can talk about some of the software stuff we did here in a second on September 1st. And I can tell you, Brad, if I showed you the detailed financials you'll see them start to grow through December and then there's this inflection point September 1st where they just kicked up and you start seeing this nice steady growth curve. And I think a lot of it had to do with we made changes over the summer to the Yugster's site to clean it up, make it a little bit more polished, but there's only so much that we were able to do. Once we went to the new site which was a completely revamped look and feel and brand I think it; for all the customers that we were bringing in, it just gave them confidence. That look and feel was a lot more professional; a lot more polished than the old site had been. And while we lost some of the cult kinkiness that was tied in with Yugster I think the more professional side appealed to a much larger group who were more willing to buy and make purchases through the site. And that's why we see the growth and that's continued to accelerate as we came into 2019. Brad: Yeah when I saw it actually; so I was kind of going through my list of deals and I've closed 20 deals at Quiet Light since I've been here and so I was kind of just looking at it and trying to think about what would be good podcast episodes. So I'd gone through 14 of them or so when I hit Yugster and as soon as I hit it and I went to the site I was like I know there's a story here because I mean it looks fantastic. I remembered what the old site looked like. I see what the new one looks like. It's like I could totally get that you were very thoughtful about how you approached it and how you kind of kept that Until Gone. I think that was really smart. So I totally could see the thought process from a marketer's standpoint of what you were doing and it seems to me like it did go really well just from an optics standpoint on my part. So it doesn't surprise me that your trends are good. We're getting somewhat short on time let's get into the software a little bit. I want to know what kinds of changes you've made to the stack and just kind of go wherever you want with that but I kind of want to know what you've been doing there? Richard: You know we can make a podcast about that in and of itself. There were some really interesting lessons learned I guess but I'll try to keep it focused for the group because not everyone's a techie. But basically, we have replaced 100% of the stack at this point. The original plan had been to upgrade the existing stack and put a new front end on it the new Until Gone front end basically and then do a bunch of workarounds creating APIs. And what APIs are for anyone who's not familiar with it they are programmatic interfaces that allow third parties to engage with your site. And so, for example, we wanted our vendors, our partners who were doing shipping to be able to work with us via API rather than exchanging text file CSVs for example. And the reason for that is just sort of accuracy, the time to market, and so forth. And there were lots of opportunities to do that to help our vendor and ourselves frankly work better together. Once we got into the details and we started looking at the Until Gone site design and what we wanted to do it would have required too many changes to the existing platform that would have left behind, in all honesty, a lot of stuff that we still needed to change. And so I think we closed the deal the first week of May last year; May 7th, 2018, by the end of June we had made the decision to do a full stack replacement top to bottom. And so we sourced a company actually here in Seattle to do a new website front end design and to then actually do the implementation on Shopify. We're on Shopify plus because we're large enough that we need to be on the bigger platform with the capabilities that they give us. And then that meant that we had to build a new back end because with the number of vendors we work with, with the way we work, with the flexibility we wanted to do it would not have been possible for us to just rely on Shopify. Now that won't be the case for a lot of e-commerce vendors but we operate more like a marketplace and we need to process a lot of purchase orders out to our vendors and take products in and not every product goes on-site and so forth. So we had to have control over that back end and so essentially we built out a completely new platform stack that operates; there's an admin portal, there was a huge amount of infrastructure for integrating with Shopify and providing all the APIs that we essentially built out. And what we've done since then is build some custom APIs. We've integrated with ShipStation which is a shipping management tool that a lot of our vendors utilize. We've integrated with ChannelAdvisor. We've integrated with a great company called Quitch just similar to ChannelAdvisor but a little bit more technology-focused. We're finalizing an integration with Celera Cloud which is another one of these integrator platforms that a lot of vendors and suppliers utilize. And so that's given us just a huge amount of flexibility because it was sort of getting rid of a lot of the deadwood that had existed previously. We've been able to do things that we weren't able to do previously and really take advantage of technology to reach our customers better. And so some examples of that we actually built a little ad engine so that we could serve our own products as ads to our customers and notification emails. We've done things with targeting where we've essentially built kind of a; think of it as a mini CRM, customer relationship management platform where the marketing emails that we send to them are fully targeted to their interests, their likes, what they prefer. Each of these changes as we've gone into the stack had given us sort of an incremental growth and helped us improve that curve, show better metrics, and have better control. It's also allowed us to really tightly integrate with our vendors and we continue to invest in it. We have some new capabilities coming out this week frankly that we want to get in place before Q4 that will allow us to do some things that will really improve our shipping and our customer service related to that because that's always a big issue with customers. So I'm happy to get into more it detailed Brad but I don't want to take up the time just talking about coding and Google Cloud and what we did. That's not our focus here. Brad: No, I think you hit some great highlights there and actually it's been interesting to watch Shopify and it's kind of dominance really in the kind of hosted stores platform. I think WordPress as a CMS is now like 35% of the world's websites and I can tell you from my perspective of operating for many years and kind of coming from that custom website world where we built everything from scratch because it gave us more flexibility and then seeing the kind of out of the box solutions come on the scene and then seeing Shopify and Volusion and WiX and these other players come on the scene. But it really seems like Shopify has asserted some dominance in the space at this point or just I mean there's entire; I'll be speaking at an event in San Diego next month and at that event, it's Shopify sellers. I'm going on a podcast in two weeks. It's just Shopify folks that work with Shopify every day. And we find a lot of our sellers now when they have high margin products are really utilizing the Facebook Pixel for marketing and for some reason Shopify plus the Facebook Pixel is just the combo that everyone wants to use. It's just Shopify is just kind of become this I think of it became kind of like WordPress for the CMS. I feel like Shopify is kind of becoming the e-commerce shopping cart or store hosted platform for the e-com side. Did you have any struggle with choosing to go with Shopify? Was that a tough decision for you? Richard: No, not really I mean I think we really looked at Shopify and BigCommerce. They're really the sort of two that we were down to at that point. We did look at Magento which is both a platform that you can just open source and build your own but they also have a hosted option. That was much more complicated and had a tech stack that we weren't sure we really wanted to work with. So it really came down to Shopify versus BigCommerce. And honestly, it was a combination of the partner we ended up wanting to work with was more comfortable with Shopify. And we also looked at Shopify and felt like you were saying given their market share and their size it was a good fit and I think it made sense to do that. I will say I came from a platform world so I'm very comfortable with using these kinds of platforms and I will say there are tradeoffs. There are huge positives; as an example of a positive, when I wanted to implement Apple Pay on the site and our payment processor already supported it. So I did all the things I needed to do with Apple, I hooked it up with my payment processor, went into Shopify, one checkmark and it's live and ready to go. The Facebook Pixel is another one. You configure the Facebook stuff in Shopify, it's done like that. Google Analytics is the same thing and so there's a lot of functionality that's built into the platform that you don't have to customize; that you don't have to tweak but you can still change things like your notification emails to make them personalized for your look and feel. So I think there are some really great things there in working with a platform. The flip side there is some loss of control. You don't have necessarily quite the same flexibility. There was a feature we were talking about the other day in my management team's meeting. The reality was if it was on our platform we could do it in a minute. It's just on Shopify it's going to be difficult to get it live and implemented not because of anything I say it would be a real flaw with Shopify but just because when someone else is running a platform there's sort of some constraints that you get into it. But I'm comfortable with the Shopify decision. I think I'd make the same one again. I think given their size, given the number of big brands that are using them now it's a good solid fit. So yeah I would go there again. Brad: Okay. And one of the things I kind of wanted to at least ask was the biggest challenge; what's been the biggest unforeseen kind of thing that you have had to tackle at least that you're comfortable sharing? Richard: Sure. I mean there are always surprises in acquiring any business and challenges are going to come up. You end up having to do more of something than you expected and so forth and it kind of throws you. I would say in this case I was actually; probably the biggest challenge was the technology side. Not because it was inherently a bad decision or difficult to rebuild the platform and do what we did; it was absolutely the right decision. I guess the point I would make is we weren't expecting to make that decision for 12 months. It was kind of something we were looking at as a 2019 project and it ended up being a 2018 project. And so what I had actually hoped to do was use the existing platform and like I said give it a facelift; redo the front end, make it into Until Gone but rely on the same core operational platform and just maybe do a few extensions. And it didn't end up being possible to get where I knew that we needed to be. From a marketing; branding capability perspective we had to make the changes. And so basically from July through the end of September, it was heads down coding. I wrote more code in those two months than I think I had in the previous 10, 20 years. Brad: Wow. Richard: My career has not been as a coder I've been in sort of management but we had to build a completely new platform from scratch and so it was a lot of stuff that we were putting together to make it work. And that continued through Q4 and even into this year as we add new features. And like I said earlier now we're at a point where we're really adding some really unique distinctive capabilities. We've even thought about spinning out some businesses to take the stuff that we've built and Shopify has this huge app ecosystem; apps that you can plug into Shopify and extend its core capabilities. A lot of what we've now built are things that are unique and not available within that ecosystem and so we think there are some opportunities just to extend that and make that sort of additional part of the business. But I would say that was my number one sort of challenge or I guess surprise and sort of what we did. And at times it's taken me away from running the business in a way that I wanted to. But I think it's ended up like I said being in a good place at this point. Brad: And it's really interesting and I do think the Shopify kind of app marketplace is pretty vibrant. We had a lead come through a couple of weeks ago that we were discussing among the team, it was a collection of some apps and I think it was bringing in about $80,000 a month and recurring revenue from a group that had built several apps in the space. So I do think that there's a pretty large market there to tap into. Well, I really want to thank you for coming on the show today. It's really helpful to our audience. I hope it ends up being helpful to you. People reach out to me all the time when I'm on these podcasts so I hope that you get to make some good connections from coming on and giving us some of your time. Do you have any parting pieces of advice for those looking to buy or sell an online-based business? Richard: I guess since I haven't sold a business of this size I'll maybe not give advice on that just yet but as a buyer, I would say don't sit on the fence. It's one of the best things you can possibly do. Get out of your corporate life. Find a broker that you trust, that you like, that you can build a relationship with and tell them what you're looking for. Don't make stuff up or blow smoke or try to sound bigger than you are. Be honest with them. Tell the broker what you're looking for, what your strengths are, what kind of things would keep you engaged and challenged so that they have a good idea because their job is to connect you. So if you don't give them the honest picture they can't help you. But don't hesitate. Owning your own business, running your own destiny I think is something that's just fantastic. It's challenging. It can be scary at times but if you're thinking about it go for it. And I've definitely liked working with Brad. He was always a straight shooter and honest and I'm not saying this just because you're on. I'd say this to anybody but finding a broker that is a straight shooter that's honest and upfront that makes it easy; that's huge. And I loved working with Quiet Light and Brad and I would definitely do it again if I had another business to go after. Brad: I appreciate that and honestly, you were one of the easiest buyers that I've ever worked with. I mean you brought all this experience to the table and honestly that is what we do, we're matching people up a lot of times. That's the game that we're playing and we may or may not be helpful in the other aspects of it but really to do well as a business adviser in Quiet Light we really need to be able to listen to what people are telling us they want and then pair that up with things that we have that are for sale. And I don't know that I'd take a whole lot of credit for it but I do think that you were the perfect person to take over this business and I'm really glad to hear that it's going really well for you and I hope that you continue to have success in the future. Richard: Thank you, Brad. I think it was a good fit and I hope the improvement we're seeing continues. It's a great course we're on and I appreciate your help making this connection happen. Brad: Thanks a lot for coming on today Richard. We really appreciate it. For the listeners, we will see you the next time. Thank you. Links and Resources: Richard's Business

  "Giving too much is oftentimes an affliction of the wealthy, but taking away the struggle is a problem with everybody." -Richard Watts "Palm trees, in that process of growing, what's actually happening in the wind is they're actually cracking and they're breaking. And when the skin breaks, they scar. And when they scar, they become stronger. And as they get older and older, they get to the point where they have so much scarring that they can withstand almost any storm. And what we do with our kids, it's almost like taking a palm tree indoors. We want to grow them and nurture them in a greenhouse..." -Richard Watts Entitlemania: How Not to Spoil Your Kids, and What to Do if You Have Back in April, when Sara Kuljis and I spoke at Pegasus School, parents there told me about Richard Watts, who had spoken at the school earlier in the year. We were introduced, and he then sent me a copy of his book Entitlemania. In this episode, we talk about the book and Richard's ideas about what to do and what not to do when it comes to passing along your family business, planning for your estate, and giving your kids big gifts. BIG IDEAS Certain difficulties and issues go along with being very wealthy. When people get very wealthy they tend to become isolated and suspicious because the people around them usually have an ulterior motive in getting to know them. By insulating your kids and buying their way out of failure, you're not allowing them to learn about long-term staying power, how to manage themselves or to discover their passion. It seems that everybody at all income levels, in this generation of parents, wants to take away the problems from their kids, hold them close, and make sure that they don't ever get hurt. By getting things wrong, kids learn how to get things right. Taking over the family business can place a child on a path of a career choice that's not being found or directed by that child, and, as a result, they will lack passion. It's not healthy to bring your kids into your estate planning too early because it takes away the incentive for them to go forward and do their own thing. It's important to ensure that however you give your kids money, you don't change their current lifestyle. QUOTES Richard: "The entitlement issue brings on two different components. One, giving too much, and two, taking away the struggle. Giving too much is oftentimes an affliction of the wealthy, but taking away the struggle is a problem with everybody." Audrey: "It's so true that in nature we have a great example of what we need to do for our kids, which is to allow them to get blown around a little when they're small, more and more as they get older, and help them, be there for them, but not stop them from bending and going through those difficult, challenging circumstances." Richard: "By getting it wrong, they will learn to get it right.   Richard: "The reason that I generally believe that family businesses create conflict is that it starts a child on a path of a career choice and a passion that's not being found or directed by the child. And oftentimes, it causes a lot of family disharmony." Richard: "You can never outrun someone who's being fueled by passion. Never. The person with a passion can live it all day long, they can sleep it all night long, they can get up in the morning and do it, but they're so passionate because they built it and they own it, that they go 100%. Well, when you do that kind of a job, it's oftentimes very difficult for a child to follow and not feel like they have this unspoken criticism of never measuring up to what Mom and Dad did." Richard: "If I were doing it the right way, I would have the daughter go and work for a competitor, and say, 'Here, go get a job over there, and look around and spend two to three years working there and see if you like it, without having the nepotism of everyone knowing that you had the right last name, and so everyone's going to treat you special. You need to go over there and learn the hard way. And then, if you really like it, let's talk'." Richard: "I believe that it's not good to bring your kids in at early stages to your wealth, to your estate planning, because the truth is that it's part of giving too much. It's part of ensuring their future and it takes away the opportunities for them to go out and to have the incentive to go forward and do their own thing. When they know there's a safety net, they tend not to grapple with their own future quite as seriously." Richard: "'How much is too much to give our kids?' is the wrong question. The right question is, 'How little is too little?' So I tell my clients to begin by giving them nothing." Richard: "I tell my clients that I would rather see them secure their kids' future than to spoil their future. And securing might mean giving them money so that if they have hospital problems, and medical problems, and children that have got deficits, education that you want to pay for, for your grandkids--all of those things are really great ways to secure their future. And you can do that with simple trusts." Richard: "My overview is that you just need to make sure that however you give them the money, you don't change their current lifestyle. You don't want them to start buying material things. You want to just ensure the wellbeing of their future." Richard: "In giving our kids all the things we didn't have, we forget to give them what we did have." About Richard Richard Watts is the founder and president of Family Business office, a legal and consulting firm in Orange County, California.  He is a published author of “Fables of Fortune: What Rich People Have That You Don’t Want,” and “Entitlemania: How Not to Spoil Your Kids, and What to Do If You Have.”  Richard writes for and contributes to numerous publications including Newsweek, Forbes, CNBC, Variety Magazine, and The Washington Times, among others.  And has appeared on Fox Nation, NPR, NBC, and CBS.  Richard speaks internationally on the effects of wealth on parenting and the American family.  Variety Magazine calls Richard, “one of the nation’s leading experts on the issues of child entitlement and family wealth. Resources/Related Episodes http://www.entitlemania.com/ https://www.facebook.com/entitlemania/ https://twitter.com/richwatts If you liked this episode, listen to Ep.100: Teen's Advice for Raising Responsible, Independent Kids Ep. 59: 5 Ways to Help Kids Thrive During their School Years and Beyond with Pam Roy Ep. 11: The Opposite of Spoiled with Ron Leiber How Doing Less Made Me a Better Parent 7 Ways to Help Kids Through their Teen Years

Three portfolio managers with a focus on income strategies in different asset classes discuss how they go about building for income in uncertain times. Richard Edgar, Editor in Chief, talks to Peter Khan for fixed income, Chris Forgan from multi asset, and in Hong Kong, Polly Kwan for equities. Transcript RICHARD EDGAR Things aren't easy for income investors. There are now $12.5 trillion dollars of debt around the world with negative yields and the hunt for positive yielding assets continues to drive valuations higher and push investors further up the risk spectrum and that risk is becoming all the more real as volatility picks up, growth slows, and central banks change their tone. All this at a time when the need for income has never been so great as aging populations around the world need to fund their way through increasingly lengthy retirements. So what can be done? How can investors build portfolios that will safely deliver on income in uncertain times where the rules seem to be turning on their heads? With me and poised with their answers are three Fidelity portfolio managers each focused on income strategies but each representing a different asset class. First here in the London studio is Peter Kahn. Peter, welcome. You've got some 25 years of experience investing in fixed income under your belt. What drew you to bonds?  PETER KHAN Well, believe it or not Richard, I was foolish enough to leave the beginning of the first tech bubble 1.0 back in San Francisco in the mid to late 90s.  RICHARD It was possibly a good time to leave.  PETER Well it might have been. Timing is everything, of course, they say. But for me having started out my career in financial markets with the focus on equities that was to me a little bit of a one-dimensional market at the time - or so I thought - and I was very much more attracted to thinking about multifaceted impacts of the combination of the bottom-up stuff together with macro factors that tend to dominate in fixed income spaces - that sort of puzzle appealed to me.  RICHARD So complexity was it was part of the appeal for you.  PETER Well said.  RICHARD Okay, well also here in London from the multi asset team is Chris Forgan. Now, Chris, income is often seen as one of the more defensive styles of investing. Are you yourself cautionary by nature? Does this explain your career? CHRIS FORGAN Yeah, I think I think it probably does actually. Certainly how I was drawn into this particular area of investments. I look at what’s attracted me over the years in terms of investment styles and managers and I think have a natural cautionary nature that underpins what I do and that very much is at the heart I think of a multi asset income approach.  RICHARD It seems like it was predestined then, Chris. CHRIS Yes. Yes.  RICHARD Okay. Well joining us from Fidelity's Hong Kong office representing the equity team in Asia is Polly Kwan. Polly, welcome to you. You've been based in Asia for all of your career - not typically regarded as a region with much of an income focus. How did you end up managing a portfolio with that income focus? POLLY KWAN I started at Fidelity in Tokyo back in 2000 where there was an increasing push of capital management and also return to shareholders in that country. So I witnessed that companies which did more shareholders returns got more appreciated by the market in terms of share price performance. So that's how I have a bigger belief in terms of dividend payments. And also later time moved to Hong Kong from Tokyo and started covering property. Property is a sector that needs more balance sheet and cash flow analysis - that helps me to do my job today because if you want to invest in a company that can pay you dividend today and tomorrow you need to take an all rounder approach looking at not just P&L but also balance sheet and cash flow.  RICHARD So it's a rounded view that appeals to you, as well.  POLLY Yes.  RICHARD Okay, well thank you all very much for joining me. Now, Peter, let's come back to you. We're in a new world, aren't we: the traditional reliable income assets - government bonds, high quality corporate credit - they're not doing what they used to. Are investors keeping up with this new reality?  PETER It's very difficult to keep up with the new reality of basically return-free risk in those high quality segments that used to be the foundation of investors’ portfolios, particularly low risk tolerance investors just looking to clip a coupon to keep up with inflation. The degree of financial repression that we have today…  RICHARD It certainly doesn't sound very appealing.  PETER No. It implies that you need to stretch a little bit to... basically run to stand still. In keeping up with inflation, with generating an income stream from fixed income assets now implies that you've got to go down in quality, not necessarily too far down in quality but you certainly need to introduce some asset classes into the mix of asset allocation in your portfolio that traditionally wouldn't have been there in past days. So I mean specifically things like high yield bonds and emerging market corporates and to a certain extent hybrid instruments can be the sort of additional spice in a portfolio that on a well-diversified basis will allow you to achieve what it is that that you need on an income basis.  RICHARD So you've got to get a lot racier with your fixed income allocation which perhaps people haven't been used to and that's the worry.  PETER That's right. And I mean we've been hopeful that we would leave these times behind, these special times post financial crisis that were seen, even last year, as potentially an anomaly. Now that we are so deep into the expectation of QE 2.0 or QE infinity the idea is that we really must say that the new normal perhaps endures for a lot longer than we previously thought and that of course has led to this buzz word of ‘Japanification’ or ‘Japanisation’, depending upon who you speak to. This sort of locking in the low rate, low inflation, low growth environment in perpetuity is at the top of investors’ minds.  RICHARD And Polly that's the area of course that you talked about. You started your career in Japan and it’s a country that's had to deal with this sort of environment for a very long time. Talking about your clients outside Japan though how are their demands changing when you're talking to them about income equity strategies? POLLY Asia has always been perceived as a growth-only kind of region. However, I have to say that the attitude both from the management side and also from the investor side have changed over time. I mean, of course, you know with this low interest rate environment naturally people are seeking a higher income, but also it has to do with the demographics itself. I mean in Asia we are no different from other parts of the world. If you look at it overall we are facing an ageing population. So with an ageing population actually more investors want to have income on top of growth. So when they think about Asian equity, if you are investing into something that has long term growth - we still believe there is a long term growth potential in Asia equity - but along that journey you'll receive some dividend payments. This is something very, very nice to have, especially for an aging population.  RICHARD We’ll come to demographics in a moment but just thinking about the company managements that you talk to. You're saying that attitudes amongst them are changing, that they're beginning to be more prepared to hand over dividends. Is that right? POLLY Yes, because a lot of the corporates in this part of the region they suffered in the crisis in terms of their share price. They have been thinking hard about how to have a more stable kind of share price and they know that there's a need from the investor side that they will appreciate some kind of sustainable and consistent dividend pay out that will have good support to the share price. So that attitude has also changed. RICHARD One way of making your shares stickier, I suppose, for people hanging around for that as well.  POLLY Exactly.  RICHARD Chris, coming to you. People are looking for new, clever ways to generate income. Is multi assets benefiting from that? CHRIS Yeah, absolutely. I think multi asset has seen huge growth in terms of demand, in particular for income solutions. We can go where we see opportunities and we can retreat from areas where we see threats. And as Peter alluded to earlier, you think about your traditional income assets and your government bonds, your high quality investment grade, which are certainly lower yielding today than they historically have been. We can continue to hold those assets for their defensive characteristics but blend them with other assets such as high yield, such as equity income, both from Europe but also from Asia as well. RICHARD And alternatives as well, I imagine.  CHRIS Yes. This is the other exciting area that somewhat exploded in the last 10 years, post the financial crisis, is the onset of the alternatives universe where we're able to access some attractive opportunities both from a return perspective but also from an income perspective. When I talk about alternatives I’m talking about things like infrastructure, renewables, loans, and asset leasing-type vehicles. The drivers of these asset classes are often quite different to what drives mainstream asset classes - equities and bonds - and so when we bring them into a portfolio and blend them with these other asset classes it’s clearly very additive in terms of delivering a lower volatility outcome for the end client.  RICHARD What are you looking for when you do build a portfolio? Just briefly describe how do you do that blend. What's the recipe?  CHRIS Well, we're very much looking at the opportunity set in front of us. Does this asset from the fundamental level look to be offering value going forward? Are we getting paid to take on the associated level risk? What's the driving force of that risk underpins it today? And what's the income generation and how does that therefore sit alongside the other assets could be potentially could invest into? In terms of the portfolio, is it adding exposure to something we already have or is it bringing something differentiated to the overall portfolio mix? And obviously if it's a latter - and in particular with alternatives that's what you get - then it adds value to the overall portfolio mix, particularly in terms of delivering a diverse well diversified portfolio often with lower levels of volatility.  RICHARD So that's the appeal of alternatives, that you're getting a different type of revenue stream, but you've all talked about this different world where the usual sources of income just aren't there. Thinking about the particular assets that each of you is looking for for income, if everyone else is piling in and seeing the appeal of bridges or whatever it might be then aren't the prices of those assets driven higher as well? CHRIS Yes. In a lot of ways they react in manners we've seen with traditional asset classes over the years so therefore we appraise them the same way and if the price of the asset has been driven higher and we think that's ultimately made the asset expensive or it's unsustainable then we'll clearly look to retreat away as we would with any and any other investment. RICHARD You make it sound so simple. Peter, how about you? Is it just going further and further up the risk spectrum?  PETER Interestingly, I mean Chris is absolutely right in terms of the forces that are at play that you've highlighted. But in thinking about an income focused portfolio, particularly within fixed income, that definitely creates an environment where you tend to, in sort of extreme euphoria cycles, you tend to see that dash for trash kind of dynamic kicking in and people going all the way down into the most remote and illiquid assets that they can find in order to extract that additional value that they believe is there. And we haven't necessarily seen that happening year-to-date within fixed income market performance. If you think about the high yield market for a second on a risk-adjusted basis it's actually the higher quality elements of the market that are producing the best returns year-to-date and that's because investors are indeed discriminating and concerned about a combination of factors notably liquidity and the potential for default losses to impair their values further down the food chain. If and when we do get a recessionary environment developing in the US economy or the European economy then you'd really anticipate that the lower quality assets are going to need to offer a much better compensation for the intrinsic risk that you're taking than they do today. And we have a bit of this investor schizophrenia going on at the moment in that people are getting crowded into as much income that they can possibly acquire but they’re, at the same time, afraid of taking that final step down into the mire, if you will, to pick up the juiciest of assets because they just don't know how deep that swamp can be - to completely mangle the allusion there. RICHARD Yes, whatever it is it sounds grim. Polly - the dash for trash: that's perhaps not how you would describe finding income in equities.  POLLY I do agree that over the short term when there is a chase of yield then the higher dividend yield stocks become very expensive compared to where they should be. However, there is a difference if you want to invest into the long term. I always tell people, do not only look at today's dividend yield but you want a company who can pay you today also who can pay you at least the same amount of dividend tomorrow. So don't fall into that dividend trap, that I would call it. Having full analysis not only on the P&L but also very solid analysis on the balance sheet and also cash flow to make sure that all the companies are going to pay at least as much dividends that they can pay today tomorrow. So that is the difference and there’s still a lot of stock picking opportunity.  RICHARD So that's the analysis you can do just looking at a spreadsheet. What about the conversations that you have with managements? What do you look for there? What gives you confidence about the dividend tomorrow? POLLY Investing using a dividend strategy - company visits and doing due diligence with a company is very, very important. I think if an analyst does a decent job in terms of looking at the dynamics in an industry, the balance sheet, cash flow, they can do a good forecast in terms of earnings, but whether a company will pay you a dividend tomorrow: it comes down to the management decisions. So knowing the management well enough, knowing the track record, knowing their thinking - any concern, any investment plan that they may have in the next 12 to 24 months - that makes a big difference. That actually is part of a major step I need in order to assess whether a company will make that dividend payments that I'd expect in twelve months’ time.  CHRIS It's definitely fair to say that when you think about equity income investing it actually tends to on the whole be the more defensive area of the market you get exposure to. You see that particularly in risk-off periods in markets that traditional equity income investors tend to perform certainly better than the wider market on average. You saw that certainly through the volatility we saw last year, particularly in Q4, where the natural defensive nature of a lot of these managers or investors comes to the fore. So it's a positive that underpins that approach. RICHARD And capital preservation? CHRIS Yeah, absolutely. Very much about strong balance sheets, cash flow generative companies that can maintain the dividend over time.  RICHARD All three of you are sort of nodding at that aspect. Peter, I mean how do you build that in? That thinking.  PETER Well, I think there is a lot of common aspects in what Chris and Polly have said and a lot of correlation between these different flavours of income products that we're trying to manage and deliver superior returns for clients. A lot of that correlation to interest rates will mean that we tend to move together but there can be significant differences in alignment of interests between management, creditors and shareholders over time. So it's interesting to hear what Polly has to say in terms of the priorities for her screening companies, and Chris as well, in portfolios whereby you have confidence in the ability to generate growth in cash flow to service the dividend. That's clearly one part that's very important for a credit analyst to think about as well, but when the rubber hits the road we may also have comfort and confidence as bond holders to own names …  RICHARD You come first. PETER Exactly. So when push comes to shove the dividend can be switched off to the benefit of interest service or assets can be sold and depending upon the nature of the documentation, around the bond instrument in question. The proceeds of that asset sale may or may not need to be delivered to creditors. So that's an additional factor that we'd be thinking about where naturally we'd have the same inclination as our colleagues in multi asset and equity to say, we'd like to back off of a name that simply is not able to continue growing and its capital structure may no longer be appropriate for it, but if there are enough levers to pull in the balance sheet or in the cash flow to divert down that debt sluice rather than dividend sluice then we may still be comfortable and confident enough to own some aging industries, if you will. RICHARD You might go where Polly fears to tread. PETER We might, which sounds perverse, right? Given an investor might think fixed income should be more risk averse than an equity investor. But it’s just thinking about the combinations and permutations of available capacity to service the debt where things diverge.  RICHARD Now you're both obviously sometimes looking at the same companies just different instruments from them. And you alluded, Peter, to the fact that a credit analyst might also be looking at some of the same indicators from a company. How much cross pollination is there between the two sides though from equities and fixed income? How much do you look at those same companies together? PETER Increasingly. Certainly on the financials side there's been a lot of good coordination for many, many, years on this front. Particularly going back to that post financial crisis episode where the global financials needed to raise a lot of capital - credit analysts working very closely together with equity analysts to really understand what was on the balance sheet and what the value of that might be, how much capital cushion is required is kind of integral to the thinking about how we might want to position ourselves in the debt capital stack of national champion banks in Italy, for example. And it's increasingly happening more in industrial space, technology space, and consumer space as capital markets grow around the world and we see new issuers coming to the market from regions outside of developed markets. To have the context of understanding where that kind of business, that kind of capital structure might trade elsewhere in the world, and then overlay some additional thinking about, well this jurisdiction is a little bit more risky or these instruments are a lot less liquid than those that we naturally see, helps us to calibrate and develop an expectation.  RICHARD And Polly, it may be a blessing that you don't invest in Italian banks, for example, but how do you combine that different view in your approach? POLLY In terms of talking about stock picking, I mentioned the P&L - and of course in Asia everybody wants growth - but I look at the balance sheet, whether a company is taking a reasonable level of debt and I need to see a company that can generate free cash flow that can cover that dividend. When companies in Asia, they move to a direction of focusing more on a dividend or setting up a dividend policy, that also leads them to think about the capital structure more. Early on, Peter mentioned about when in a bad time how a company can services its debt - I mean, from my side, because equity shareholders, if things go bad we are the last to collect any money left on the table: in Asia we still want growth but I want them to grow on a very healthy capital structure. RICHARD Which is what you want as we get towards the end of the cycle. When that end happens, none of us seems to know for sure, it's been going on for as long as I can remember. Chris, how do you cope with it? How do you cope with unpredictable messaging from central banks, the effect of politics - I won't name them now, it seems rude to - but how does that influence what you're thinking about as you manage your portfolios now?  CHRIS It's certainly bringing more risks and more challenges to how we look to construct our portfolios. But overall with these heightened risks that we perhaps see on the horizon alongside slowing growth globally at this juncture it certainly points to taking a more defensive positioning to one's portfolio, looking to be more diversified across asset classes and asset types.  RICHARD Peter? PETER Without a doubt, right? I mean the uncertainties that we're dealing with on a day to day basis are very difficult to forecast and very difficult to hedge but they need to be incorporated in the expectations about where things might get to in terms of radical changes in regimes and the market tail seeming to wag the dog of the FOMC policy -  the Federal Reserve - at the moment is just one of them that we clearly need to factor into our thinking about how quickly regimes may change. But actually for an income-based investor a lot of this minute to minute and day to day stuff probably creates more opportunity than threat and a lot of it can be considered noise. But if the cycle ends in a way that's unanticipated it will come back to the point that Polly made earlier about quality and confidence in balance sheets that will make a difference particularly for fixed income investors. When you do need to add a little bit of risk into the mix because there is no free lunch to generate your income stream and you have a reasonable allocation to high yield you want to have a reasonable confidence that most of the significant positions in your portfolio are indeed worth the paper they're printed on, so to speak. RICHARD They’re robust enough.  PETER Yes, the high conviction levels in the companies being able to one way or another to redeem that debt. And it's that kind of environment and modelling around stresses that I think will become evermore important in the thinking about constructing portfolios in the future.  RICHARD So you're able to ignore the vacillations, the noise, as you put it.  PETER I'd love to be able to completely ignore it, but…  RICHARD Well, you can you stand a little bit above them. But one thing you can't ignore because it's something that is affecting all of us everywhere in the world and Polly referred to it early on is the demographics that are changing - an aging population around the world. Almost everywhere. How does that play out in your world? What concerns you about that side of things? PETER I don't know if it's necessarily a concern because that would be sort of the silver lining in the cloud for fixed income as an asset class: as populations age and need to have more focus perhaps on capital preservation then they will tend to allocate a little bit more to fixed income. So the risk is, from our perspective, that we can no longer rely upon past history to dictate exactly how cheap fixed income assets can become in the event that growth picks up and inflation picks up because there is such a significant pool of savings that are looking for a desirable income stream, that are willing to commit to additional fixed income exposure at lower and lower levels. So that's one of the dynamics that's currently at play in the market - the buy the dip on the back of the central banks is a short term cyclical thing, but buy the dip on the back of the demographic trends and debt disinflation dynamics in the global economies - that's a more structural thing that we need to contend with. RICHARD Much bigger picture.  PETER It's about managing people's expectations too.  RICHARD And this new reality that we began with, of course. And Polly, I cut you off earlier talking about demographics but what are your thoughts? You’re in a part of the world where China is aging, other parts of Asia are much younger. How do you adapt?  POLLY I think, like I said before, I think investors overall there is increasing demand for income but at the same time I think the one beauty about Asia in particular is that we are just at the beginning - very, very early stage in terms of companies starting to have a consistent dividend payout. So there is still a lot of opportunity. And another example is a lot of developed markets already have REITs but REITs are a relatively new thing. Not that many markets in Asia have REITs set up yet. So that will be an extra investment instrument that we can have from the equity side that can generate decent dividends; stable income. At the same time, if you believe in the overall growth story in Asia asset price appreciation will also benefit the investor as well. So I always tell my investors, if they buy Asian stocks, buying something with an income you get the valuation buffer, you enjoy the long-term growth story in Asia, but you also collect a dividend paycheck every quarter, every six months. RICHARD I've got one more question for each of you, a final bit of advice. What should someone consider, what are the opportunities they should watch for at the moment, for those people who are who are looking for income? Chris, let me come to you first. CHRIS I would probably talk closer to home really on this one. Linking back to your previous question, just talking about demographics. You mentioned earlier that people are obviously living longer nowadays and requiring a form of income in retirement. We can look across all these asset classes to bring a solution together that can be very targeted in nature. And later in life you're wanting the assurance of your capital going forward, so a more defensive approach, and focusing very much on the downside is a strategy that can sit along perhaps other income solutions in retirement. RICHARD Successfully pitching your home turf there. Now let me ask my single asset class managers here what they think the opportunities are. Polly, let's come to you first.  POLLY I think opportunities we are facing in Asia: one, another topic that we didn't really touch upon, which is in the spotlight these days is the trade war. A lot of people when they invest in Asia are very scared about the potential negative outcome from the trade war. And that's why, for example, a lot of the tech stock got so down. But as an income fund manager one thing I can tell you, the beauty about Asia is that we have quite a few tech stocks that have very solid balance sheets, some of them even in their cash balance sheet have very good free cash flow. So if you're a long time investor and you believe that this trade war is still going to resolve one way or the other, actually you get a pay, in the form of dividends, to be patient and waiting for that. So I think this is one opportunity that people can look into in Asia.  RICHARD And Peter, a final word to you.  PETER Two interesting things - one, you mentioned at the beginning was $12 trillion of negative yielding debt, and the second thing that Polly has just left us with was a trade war resolution ultimately coming about. The combination of those two factors is probably the biggest danger for fixed income investors at the moment because once we have the pressure valves released and perhaps so much of this monetary stimulus is no longer required we are going to see perhaps a shift in interest rates. We wouldn't expect that to be your father's shift in interest rates, or mother's shift in interest rates, of 100, 200, 300 basis points but 50 to 100 basis points back up in yields will create some capital loss for investors who are currently getting crowded in. So I think at the moment the sensible thing to do is not only to decrease the duration of the portfolio but the offset to that in order to maintain an enhanced income stream is to diversify and to consider almost a barbell approach of high quality investment grade credits and government bonds if and where you can find them with a positive yield and a positive real yield, namely something like US treasuries, and then adding some high quality emerging markets and high yield credit to the mix. It helps to provide investors with a good risk-adjusted balance in the portfolio. RICHARD Ever alert to the dangers. Well thank you Peter Kahn as well as Polly Qwan and Chris Forgan. Now if you want to read more about income investing we have a whole edition for you on the topic online, just search ‘Fidelity Answers’. And if you like this discussion please do rate us on your podcast app. That's it for me. The producer was Seb Morton-Clark and studio management was by a technical army: Connor Baillie and Alex Willcox here in London, and Tommy Su in Hong Kong. Thank you very much indeed for listening. Goodbye.

Charlie Gunningham has been innovating in the Australian marketplace for more than 25 years and now helps others gain funding from the federal government. Join Charlie and NGIS' Richard Bentley and Adam Mullett to find out why spatial is a key technology for start ups. Topic Index: 00:40 Charlie Gunningham, your title is Commercialisation Advisor at Accelerated Commercialisation - what does that title mean? 1:28 What is innovation? 2:56 Is there something innovative about ideas that aren’t new to the world, just new to me? 4:28 How do you help people innovate using a map? 5:55 Many startups that are coming out of Australia have a spatial component coming out of them. Why is spatial becoming so big? 8:20 How is the mining industry helping the startup industry? 10:10 Who’s responsibility should it be to create the environment for innovation - big companies, government or startups? 12:15 40% of jobs are going to be disrupted in the next 10 years - what’s going to happen? 13:50 Digital disruption is a cliche- what’s the most influential technological change that you’ve (Charlie) seen come through industry? 16:40 If you’re in an existing company and you have an idea- how do you take it from an idea to being a product or a business model? How do I commercialise that as an intrapreneur or as a company? 19:15 [Richard] You’ve been in sales a long time - what do people buy? 22:55 Have you seen any startups out of Australia that you think are really promising that we should check out? 

We have several suggestions from our listeners for Sebastien on his filled hard drive, a request for a recommendation on a screen recorder for Linux and a story about dual booting. Chard has a recommendation for Bill's next computer. Episode 324 Time Stamps 00:00 Going Linux #324 · Listener Feedback 00:15 Introduction 00:57 New processors have Bill drooling 05:10 Voice Mail: On requirement specs in reviews 13:04 Marian: Use 'du' to find out why hard drive is filling up; Linux isn't always easier 18:39 Miguel: A solute and a suggestion to use 'du' or 'ncdu' 19:32 Eldon: Also suggests 'ncdu' 20:48 Small Box Admin: Another vote for 'du' 22:56 Chris: Screen recorders for Linux 26:37 Richard: You will only boot Windows or else! 29:55 Chard: A suggestion for Bill 32:25 goinglinux.com, goinglinux@gmail.com, +1-904-468-7889, @goinglinux, feedback, listen, subscribe 33:52 End

We have several suggestions from our listeners for Sebastien on his filled hard drive, a request for a recommendation on a screen recorder for Linux and a story about dual booting. Chard has a recommendation for Bill's next computer. Episode 324 Time Stamps 00:00 Going Linux #324 · Listener Feedback 00:15 Introduction 00:57 New processors have Bill drooling 05:10 Voice Mail: On requirement specs in reviews 13:04 Marian: Use 'du' to find out why hard drive is filling up; Linux isn't always easier 18:39 Miguel: A solute and a suggestion to use 'du' or 'ncdu' 19:32 Eldon: Also suggests 'ncdu' 20:48 Small Box Admin: Another vote for 'du' 22:56 Chris: Screen recorders for Linux 26:37 Richard: You will only boot Windows or else! 29:55 Chard: A suggestion for Bill 32:25 goinglinux.com, goinglinux@gmail.com, +1-904-468-7889, @goinglinux, feedback, listen, subscribe 33:52 End

In this second podcast, Mr. Wendell continues where he left off last time. He explains the skills you’ll need in order to be an effective Chief Data Officer and we learn more about MIT’s International Society of Chief Data Officers. Transcript Skills a CDO Need: Information Technology, Mathematics, Change Management Inside Out Security: You've given many examples how the CDO has a relationship with a CIO, the CMO, the CEO, and so you need a whole bunch of different skillsets. What are some skills you need in order to be an effective CDO? Richard: Yeah, there are really three category of skills. The first category is what I'll call an IT skillset, traditionally. The second is more of a math skillset, and the third is really, like you mentioned, around communication, and even HR and change management. So I could talk to each of those briefly. Information Technology It's an interesting role, right, because typically, people who are strong in IT may not have as much background or expertise in math or HR, and you could say that about the other two as well. These are the three different areas of skills that often do not overlap, and to be a good CDO, you absolutely must have all three skills areas. The IT skillset is all about new data technology. So I think the number one, if you go online and you look at search terms, the number one phrase that's most commonly associated with the chief data officer is data science. Data science, if you look at, again, it mean a lot of things to a lot of people. But chief data officers, chief analytics officers manage the data science function. Data science takes place in most companies now on top of newer data technology stacks. There are so many new technologies emerging every day that are absolutely critical for managing the function of data science, data integration. And so being able to go in and work with IT department on building out that technology suite, and even occasionally standing up IT infrastructure with these new kinds of tools that, you know, maybe the IT department is typically focused more on very, very proven technologies that are enterprise scale that could be deployed and maximized their IT ROI, that is what they should be focused on. That's the perfect focus for IT. But if that's all you do as a company, then you're never going to experiment with somebody's new technologies that are really required to do data science well, and this is where a CDO comes in. So, you know, it's really important to be able to stand up and manage some of these new IT technologies, and you have to be a hacker to make it work. I mean, a lot of companies I know spend a year and a half just trying to figure out how to productionalize their hadoop cluster inside their firewalls. So you have to know how to hack through these things and hack around them. I find a lot of my peers in the CDO community grew up as hackers, and you really have to have that hacker mindset and enjoy problem solving. Mathematics Secondary of math, I mean, this is really all algorithms so you need to understand machine learning. You need to know what are the different flavors of machine learning and how is it applied. And you need to be able to, I think in order to be good, you need to be able to get down to a fairly detailed level with your data scientist to talk about different packages, and how they're applied in different parameters that they're using in their model. Machine learning is just one area that's really hot right now but I think of advanced analytics, some statistics all have many different models that are used to solve different types of problems. And operations research, frankly, is an area that's often overlooked. There are many powerful quantitative techniques that come out of operations research, and increasingly now, computer science that are all really important and all have their place, and they're just different tools for different jobs. So we need to have that tool kits of algorithms to know which one or ones are best applicable to different business use cases. If you want to do a cluster analysis with a huge dataset, maybe you want to do a simple k-means. If you have a smaller dataset and you think you can get more insight out of it, then maybe you can do a hierarchical. It's just one simple example, but you need to be able to match the business use case to the scale of data to the algorithm. Change Management And then the third area, I mentioned the HR skillset, is really around change management. This is where most companies I see really fall down because most companies focus on insight. Insights are great. Insights don't make money. And this is where I'm talking specifically about like 20th century companies that are looking to be 21st century companies. Companies like that, they are filled with a lot of really great talent that's just not used to being data driven in their workflows. And quite often, sometimes, there's resistance to data. Maybe folks, at the end of the day, feel that their gut is going to give a better answer than a computer or an algorithm, and look, I'm not saying let's throw away gut feel. There are still many cases where we have to use gut feel, but I do believe that increasingly, over the next few decades, there are going to be a lot of knowledge workers that...their jobs are not going to be automated but they're going to be augmented. They will be using data. They'll be using analytics to more directly inform the decision that used to be made more on gut feel, not replacing them but augmenting. And getting folks who are not used to trusting a dashboard to trust the dashboard is really hard. It's really hard. It's change management, and there are reams and volumes written on change management. I've done a lot of this. I did a lot at American Express. You know, change management in business units, to become more data driven, there's a lot of best practices that go along with this. And by the way, the skillset though is nothing to do with IT and nothing to do with the math, the first two skillsets I mentioned. So, yeah, you're right. It's a very heterogeneous job that requires a very cross functional skillset to be successful. Inside Out Security: It sounds like you need to start working when you're 15 years old. Richard: You know, it's interesting. There's a lot to learn, I think, to be an effective chief data officer, for sure. Importance of Curiosity in Data, Technology and People Inside Out Security: And to also be curious about the data, to be curious about technology, and to be curious about people, too. Richard: That's a really, really good way of putting it. You're absolutely right. It's curious across all three of those ends. But it's something that I don't want to be discouraging. I think that folks, more often than not, earlier on in their careers, specialize in maybe the first area, or the second area, maybe IT or math, and then expand over time to have all three of those critical areas checked. But there are a lot of folks from data science increasingly are coming from liberal arts background. There's a whole new profession of data journalism. Data visualization is huge, and data science is coming in from that background. I would put that more on the HR communication skill bucket. And I think if you're smart and you're really curious, as you said, there should be nothing stopping you from going out and acquiring all the skills that we're talking about. Reasonable Timeline for Success Inside Out Security: And so if you became a CDO, how much of a timeline would you give yourself? Because sometimes, when you join a company, people are like: "What are you doing there? Are you here to cut costs? Are you here to streamline things?" What's a reasonable timeline you would give yourself as a CDO to validate and justify this new role? Richard: It's a good question. I think that there are critical checkpoints along the way. I'll start at the beginning. I think that the first critical checkpoint is 90 days before you start. And I'm not being facetious. I actually believe that a good chief data officer is not going to take any CDO role that's not set up the right way. And I've just found, with so many conversations I've had with companies that are looking to be successful in this area, they don't necessarily know how to structure the role for success. They don't know who...should the data warehouse and ETLT be under the CDO or not, or should that stay in IT. And so I really think that it's incumbent on a CDO to make sure that that role is structured for success before they accept the job. Almost be a consultant to...and actually, a lot of CDOs who are in their roles were consultants or advisers to companies through this process. I think that's number one, and then I think that, so coming in on day one with the right success structure and the right metrics is really important. And then, you know, I think that it's interesting. A lot of people argue back and forth about should we be driving quick hits or no, actually, we should be driving transformation. And it feels like there's people in one of these two camps, and the answer, I think, is actually both. You have to do both. I believe in taking a portfolio approach. I think that it's really important to very quickly, early on, identify a couple large transformational projects that are going to move the needle for the company, but are going to take more like, a year or two to do. But in addition to that, there's got to be a whole hopper full of monthly click hits that come out, and they're just stoking the fire, feeding the engagements of the business. Because if you just do one or the other, then you're either going to lose engagement or you're going to lose the larger potential. So I think, short answer to your question, the role needs to be set up for success. I think that within the first 90 days, a CDO needs to quickly assess the company, the situation, come up with an initial version of a road map, use a rigorous prioritization criteria to come up with a hopper of quick hits, data-driven quick hits, as well as a few big transformational projects that get the executive team and the board of directors excited. MIT’s International Society of Chief Data Officers Inside Out Security: I want to learn more about your role at ISCDO at MIT. Can you tell us a little bit more about this organization and some of the goals and objectives? Richard: Sure. So the MIT International Society for Chief Data Officers, it came out of several conversations that a few of us in the community were having with a couple professors in the Sloan school. Really, think of us as the IEEE for chief data officers. So, not affiliated with a vendor and really having more of a code of silence around our meetings. Place for folks who...chief data officers, chief analytic officers, really, think of the leaders of the data and analytics for $200 million plus companies, is more or less the range that we're seeing. To come together and roll up our sleeves and talk about what's worked, what hasn't worked, which vendors have delivered, which teams within which vendors have delivered, and what are common challenges. It always amazes me. …. From MIT, we went down to DC, and we were talking to chief data officers in the public sector. And I walked into those meetings thinking, "Oh, these people are going to have nothing in common with us in the private sector." They were talking about the challenges of data integration, and the challenges of driving quick hits, and getting engagement. And in the end, it amazed me at how similar so many of our challenges are, and just how many really of the best ideas, or I call them jiu-jitsu moves kind of ways of overcoming these challenges as an executive, really come from outside of our industry. So I think a lot of...it's important to obviously work with folks within one's industry to think about, specifics to regulatory issues, for example. But I think that it's equally critical to look outside of one's industry to find best practices in areas that other industries may be a little further along on some issues, and maybe they figured out something that we don't. So MIT ISCDO right now, I think we're on at around 150 executive members, would invite anyone interested, who thinks they qualify as an executive leader of data and analytics in companies have at least $100 million or so in revenue to apply. And we do screen all the potential members. And if assuming that somebody is qualified to be a member of our community, we would absolutely love to have them join us. Inside Out Security: Thank you so much, Richard. I'm wondering, if people want to follow you, how can people contact you or follow you on twitter? Richard: Yeah, sure. So I would say, first, iscdo.org. My twitter handle is @reWendell, and my email address if anyone wants to get a hold of me is richard@Wendell.io. Inside Out Security: Thank you so much, Richard. Richard: Thank you, Cindy. I enjoyed talking with you. I look forward to staying in touch.

Click Here for the resources from this interview with Richard "You cannot grow others unless you grow yourself.  I think a lot of times we think, well, I've gotta get these people to follow me and that leads to a lot of external factors or a lot of tactics of trying to fix somebody or fix the situation or fix the team. But the reality is if we spent 80% of our time or more on ourselves and getting our inside right, then we give people around us the freedom to do the same." - Richard Rierson In this episode we have a very special guest.  Richard Rierson started out as a US Marine Corps pilot.  The leadership lessons he learned in the Marine Corps led to an amazing business career and now his work as a leadership coach and business consultant. Richard is a student of leadership as well as a practitioner.   He is a life long learner and has applied his lessons from the Marine Corps and business to every aspect of his life, faith and relationships.  Richard's continual quest to influence and impact lives in a positive way has led him into what he is doing now and this interview will bless you as Richard shares his experience. Richard started the Dose of Leadership podcast and has interviewed more than 200 CEOs, thought leaders, executives like Dana Perino, the former White House Press Secretary, Simon Sinek, Barbara Corcoran from The Shark Tank and I could go on. What You Will Learn Leadership has nothing to do with position or title How to lead from a place of clarity in times of uncertainty What the meaning of 'Leaders Eat Last' is Keys to take your leadership to the next level The #1 way to gain influence with someone That working on yourself is 80% of becoming a great leader How to overcome the beliefs that are limiting your leadership You can lead from the front, middle, or bottom of an organization Resources The Dose Of Leadership Podcast Coaching with Richard Rierson Bio Richard is a husband, father of four daughters, prior Marine Corps officer, commercial pilot, leadership speaker, trainer, coach, and entrepreneur with a passion for the pursuit of truth & common sense leadership. Richard specializes in helping professionals and organizations develop an authentic leadership presence, crush limiting beliefs, & overcome mediocrity; creating a more purpose driven life full of time & economic freedom. Richard is a change management and leadership expert. Richard's philosophy of inspiring "everyone to think and act like a leader" is based on timeless natural principles; and from his experiences as a Marine Corps pilot, professional executive, husband of 22 years, and father of four daughters. If you're goal is to inspire your team, organization, or community, give Richard a call for your next event. Every work shop, seminar, and keynote Richard produces is custom-designed to inspire and equip everyone to maximize their leadership capacity.