Podcast appearances and mentions of Jeremy West

On this episode of The Pour, Adam welcomes back a true architect of adventure, Mary Ann Erdos, founder of Cork & Cruise. If you think you've been on a wine trip before, think again. Mary Ann has created something completely different: immersive, intimate journeys where you don't just taste the wine, you taste the place, the story, and the people behind the pour.From their first Rhône adventure (where Adam joined as a guest), to this summer's highly anticipated Bordeaux cruise, and already booking fast for Portugal 2026 (with Turtle Rock, Hawks Hill, & Villa Creek), Mary Ann shares how these trips come together, why winemakers keep signing up for more, and what makes guests feel like they're part of something once in a lifetime.We dive deep into what sets these experiences apart from truffle hunting in France to seven-course pairing dinners at sea and how Mary Ann obsesses over every detail, from the wine to the swag. Plus: her top travel tips, her jet lag hacks, and the moment she knew this wild idea could actually work.Don't just travel. Travel well. Travel with wine. Travel with Cork & Cruise.• Learn more or book your cruise: CORK & CRUISE • Follow on Instagram: @corkandcruise • Cruise Partner:AMA WaterwaysIf you're thinking of joining us on the next adventure or just want to live vicariously, this episode is your boarding pass.Sponsored by:Tin City Distillery: Join the Private Barrel Club and craft your own custom whiskey. The Pour has its own barrel - you can too! Check it out here: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-club.Follow Adam:Instagram: @adamontheairWebsite: adammontiel.com – Find episodes, giveaways, and more.Podcasts: Up & Adam, Where Wine Takes You, and The Pour with Adam Montiel—stream wherever you get your podcasts.Pop the cork and join the conversation—this is one pour you don't want to miss!********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

There's immersive art… and then there's FOSO — the Fiber Optic Symphonic Orchestra now glowing at Sensorio in Paso Robles. In this episode of The Pour, Adam goes behind the glow with two world-class creators: internationally acclaimed light artist Bruce Munro, and Emmy-winning composer Nainita Desai.This is the first time Bruce has created a piece where light is fully synchronized to an original orchestral score. And Nainita? She didn't write this music for film or screen — she composed it for a landscape. For movement. For light.Link:Bruce Munro – brucemunro.co.uk Nainita Desai – nainitadesai.com Sensorio – Paso Robles – sensoriopaso.com FOSO – Fiber Optic Symphonic Orchestra -Now open at Sensorio in Paso RoblesTickets & InfoListen to the FOSO Score by Nainita DesaiSponsored by:Tin City Distillery: Join the Private Barrel Club and craft your own custom whiskey. The Pour has its own barrel - you can too! Check it out here: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-club.Follow Adam:Instagram: @adamontheairWebsite: adammontiel.com – Find episodes, giveaways, and more.Podcasts: Up & Adam, Where Wine Takes You, and The Pour with Adam Montiel—stream wherever you get your podcasts.Pop the cork and join the conversation—this is one pour you don't want to miss!********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

The Pour with Adam Montiel is Recorded Live at The Timbre LoBroStudios, thanks to Timbre Winery.On this episode of The Pour with Adam Montiel, Adam sits down with Debby Baldwin Mann, a true pioneer of Paso Robles wine country. Debby co-founded Justin Winery as well as channeled her innovative spirit into creating two standout destinations: Paso Market Walk and Coast Village Walk in Montecito.Paso Market Walk is a vibrant gathering spot on Spring Street between 19th and 20th, showcasing the very best of local flavor and craftsmanship. The market offers a thoughtfully curated mix of artisanal food vendors, boutique shops, restaurants, and locally sourced goods, all housed within a beautifully designed space that embodies the charm and spirit of Paso Robles. Both locals and visitors, as well as those in the industry, can enjoy a unique experience here - from gourmet treats and handmade products to comfortable, high-end accommodations - while savoring the region's renowned hospitality and warm sense of community.In this candid conversation, Debby reflects on her experiences navigating the early days of Paso's wine scene, the monumental sale of Justin Winery, and the personal and professional transitions (and headlines) that followed. She also opens up about the lessons she's learned from her health challenges and how those experiences have reshaped her perspective on life, community, and success. Packed with insightful stories, humor, and heartfelt wisdom, this episode celebrates the life and legacy of a woman who has profoundly shaped her community, the industry, and those around her.Find Debby Baldwin Mann online:Website: pasomarketwalk.comInstagram: @pasomarketwalk*****Tin City Distillery: Join the Private Barrel Club and craft your own custom whiskey. The Pour has its own barrel - you can too! Check it out here: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-club.Follow Adam:Instagram: @adamontheairWebsite: adammontiel.com – Find episodes, giveaways, and more.Podcasts: Up & Adam, Where Wine Takes You, and The Pour with Adam Montiel—stream wherever you get your podcasts.Pop the cork and join the conversation—this is one pour you don't want to miss!********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

On this episode of The Pour with Adam Montiel we chat with none other than Chef Rachel Ponce. Known for her inventive, high-energy cooking, Rachel is teaming up with Micah Park, Booker's hospitality and events guru, to create a one-of-a-kind wine and food experience.For one night only, Booker Vineyard is turning their tasting room into a full-service restaurant, and the talent behind the menu? Happening March 22nd, this isn't your typical winemaker dinner. No long communal tables, no preset pours—just an intimate, restaurant-style service where guests can enjoy a five-course, wine-paired menu at their own pace. From the mind-blowing ‘Lick Your Plate' amuse-bouche to a deconstructed Beef Wellington, every dish is designed to elevate Booker's wines and surprise the senses.In this episode of The Pour, we dig into how this event came to life, the vision behind transforming a tasting room into a restaurant, and the creative process that makes Rachel's food so unforgettable. Plus, we get into wine and food trends, behind-the-scenes kitchen chaos, and what it takes to execute a high-level dining experience in a non-traditional space.Reserve your seat before it sells out!Event Link: Booker Vineyard Exclusive DinnerBooker Vineyard Website: www.bookervineyard.comPair With Chef Rachel Website: www.pairwithchefrachel.comChef Rachel's Instagram: @pair_with_chef_rachelThis one is for the wine lovers, foodies, and anyone who appreciates an unforgettable dining experience. Cheers! Sponsored by:Tin City Distillery: Join the Private Barrel Club and craft your own custom whiskey. The Pour has its own barrel - you can too! Check it out here: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-club.Links & Shoutouts:Presqu'ile Winery: presquilewine.comCenter of Effort: centerofeffortwine.comSolterra Strategies: solterrastrategies.comTin City Distillery Private Barrel Club: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-clubWorld of Pinot Noir: worldofpinotnoir.comFollow Adam:Instagram: @adamontheairWebsite: adammontiel.com – Find episodes, giveaways, and more.Podcasts: Up & Adam, Where Wine Takes You, and The Pour with Adam Montiel—stream wherever you get your podcasts.Pop the cork and join the conversation—this is one pour you don't want to miss!********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

Paso Robles is set to shine a spotlight on one of the most fascinating and underappreciated varietals in the wine world—Cabernet Franc. Cab Franc Masters is a two-day event happening March 16-17, 2024, dedicated entirely to this complex and elegant grape.Joining Adam today are Neeta Mitral of LXV Wines and Damian Grimley of Brecon Estate. We talk about what makes Cab Franc special, why it's gaining momentum, and what guests can expect from this first-of-its-kind celebration.If you're a Cab Franc fan—or just looking to expand your palate—this is an episode (and event) you won't want to miss!Event Details: Cab Franc Masters 2025Dates: Sunday & Monday, March 16-17, 2025Location: Paso Robles, CATickets & Info: www.CabFrancMasters.comThis event is the first of its kind and a must-attend for wine lovers looking to experience the depth and beauty of Cabernet Franc in all its forms.Featured GuestsNeeta Mitral – LXV Wines (Website)Damian Grindley – Brecon Estate (Website)Social Media Links:Cab Franc Masters – InstagramFollow LXV Wines – InstagramFollow Brecon Estate – InstagramFollow The Pour with Adam Montiel – InstagramSponsored by:Tin City Distillery: Join the Private Barrel Club and craft your own custom whiskey. The Pour has its own barrel - you can too! Check it out here: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-club.Links & Shoutouts:Presqu'ile Winery: presquilewine.comCenter of Effort: centerofeffortwine.comSolterra Strategies: solterrastrategies.comTin City Distillery Private Barrel Club: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-clubWorld of Pinot Noir: worldofpinotnoir.comFollow Adam:Instagram: @adamontheairWebsite: adammontiel.com – Find episodes, giveaways, and more.Podcasts: Up & Adam, Where Wine Takes You, and The Pour with Adam Montiel—stream wherever you get your podcasts.Pop the cork and join the conversation—this is one pour you don't want to miss!********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

On this episode of The Pour with Adam Montiel, we're coming to you straight from the 25th Anniversary of the World of Pinot Noir at the Ritz-Carlton Bacara—where the pours are deep, the wines are rare, and the conversations go where no tasting notes can take you.This one's stacked:Dan Kosta—a legend in Pinot Noir—joins The Pour for the first time to break down his next chapter. Why launch three new wine brands instead of one? What has he learned since selling Kosta Browne? And how do Admire, Convene, and DK Grail each tell a different story in the glass?Bernard Retornaz—the Burgundy insider who always brings the heat—talks Grand Cru vs. California, how climate is shifting the game, and why he keeps smuggling Chardonnay into World of Pinot Noir.Jeremy Retornaz, a Pour veteran, is flipping the script with Onirique Cider—his first-ever cider label. Normandy meets Sebastopol in a way that might just change how you see apples forever.No scripted PR talk. No filler. Just winemakers, pioneers, and a few bottles you'll wish you had in front of you.Connect with Our Guests:Dan Kosta & DK Wine GroupWebsite: Admire Wines | Convene Wines | DK Grail WinesInstagram: @admirebydankosta | @convenebydankosta | @dk_grailMaison Louis LatourWebsite: Louis LatourFacebook: Louis Latour USAJeremy Retornaz & Onirique CiderWebsite: Onirique CiderInstagram: @onirique.cider | @jeremyretornazSponsored by:Tin City Distillery: Join the Private Barrel Club and craft your own custom whiskey. The Pour has its own barrel - you can too! Check it out here: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-club.Links & Shoutouts:Solterra Strategies: solterrastrategies.comTin City Distillery Private Barrel Club: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-clubWorld of Pinot Noir: worldofpinotnoir.comFollow Adam:Instagram: @adamontheairWebsite: adammontiel.com – Find episodes, giveaways, and more.Podcasts: Up & Adam, Where Wine Takes You, and The Pour with Adam Montiel—stream wherever you get your podcasts.Pop the cork and join the conversation—this is one pour you don't want to miss!********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

Adam is giving away tickets to the World of Pinot Noir's Friday and Saturday Grand Tastings happening February 28 & March 1, 2025, at the Ritz-Carlton Bacara in Santa Barbara. Head to AdamMontiel.com to enter for your chance to win!World of Pinot Noir – 25 Years of Pinot PerfectionIn this special episode of The Pour, Adam dives into one of the most anticipated wine events of the year—the World of Pinot Noir, celebrating its 25th anniversary at the Ritz-Carlton Bacara in Santa Barbara, February 27 through March 1.Adam's taped live from Presqu'ile Winery in Santa Maria, sitting down with:Nathan Carlson – General Manager of Center of Effort and WOPN board member, sharing why Pinot is the grape that chooses you.Tim Wanner – Director of Hospitality at Presqu'ile Winery, breaking down what makes their Pinot stand out.Stacie Jacob – CEO of Solterra Strategies, the powerhouse behind WOPN, giving us the inside scoop on Grand Tastings, the Bubbles Lounge, and can't-miss dinners.What's New for WOPN 2025?Opening Night Party: Sparkling wine, live music, and bites from top chefs.Caviar & Bubbles Lounge: Sip, swirl, and snag a caviar bump before tasting world-class Pinot.Epic Seminars & Dinners: Panels led by Esther Mobley of the SF Chronicle and dinners featuring rare Champagne and vintage Burgundy.100+ Wineries: From the Central Coast to Burgundy and beyond, it's Pinot paradise.World of Pinot Noir: February 27–March 1 at the Ritz-Carlton Bacara. Get tickets now at worldofpinotnoir.com.Want to go?Adam's giving away tickets for both Friday and Saturday's Grand Tastings! Enter to win at adammontiel.com.Sponsored by:Tin City Distillery: Join the Private Barrel Club and craft your own custom whiskey. The Pour has its own barrel - you can too! Check it out here: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-club.Links & Shoutouts:Presqu'ile Winery: presquilewine.comCenter of Effort: centerofeffortwine.comSolterra Strategies: solterrastrategies.comTin City Distillery Private Barrel Club: tincitydistillery.com/club/private-barrel-clubWorld of Pinot Noir: worldofpinotnoir.comFollow Adam:Instagram: @adamontheairWebsite: adammontiel.com – Find episodes, giveaways, and more.Podcasts: Up & Adam, Where Wine Takes You, and The Pour with Adam Montiel—stream wherever you get your podcasts.Pop the cork and join the conversation—this is one pour you don't want to miss!********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

Few films have left an imprint on the wine world like Sideways. Two decades later, its influence still ripples through vineyards and tasting rooms, shaping how we talk about Pinot Noir, Merlot, and the culture of wine itself. But how did a single movie change an entire industry?In this episode, Adam sits down with Mira Advani Honeycutt, a respected wine journalist, and Kirk Honeycutt, a renowned film critic, to discuss their new book Sideways Uncorked: The Perfect Pairing of Film and Wine. Together, they explore the unexpected, lasting impact of Sideways, featuring insights from director Alexander Payne, key industry figures, and winemakers.Also joining the conversation is Josh Klapper, owner and winemaker of Timbre Winery in San Luis Obispo, where this episode was recorded. As a winemaker deeply connected to the Pinot movement, Josh offers firsthand perspective on how Sideways changed the game.From behind-the-scenes stories to the lingering Sideways effect on wine culture, this conversation uncorks it all.Plus: Win Tickets to World of Pinot Noir!Adam is giving away tickets to the World of Pinot Noir's Friday and Saturday Grand Tastings happening February 28 & March 1, 2025, at the Ritz-Carlton Bacara in Santa Barbara. Head to AdamMontiel.com to enter for your chance to win!Buy Sideways UncorkedPublisher Link: Rowman & LittlefieldAmazon: Buy on AmazonGuest LinksMira Advani Honeycutt – Wine Journalist & AuthorInstagram: @mira_advani_honeycuttKirk Honeycutt – Film Critic & AuthorInstagram: @kirkhoneycuttJosh Klapper – Winemaker & Owner, Timbre WineryWebsite: timbrewinery.comInstagram: @timbrewinery********Learn more about SLO Restaurant Month: Visit SLO Restaurant Month********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

Welcome to Myopia Movies, the podcast where we revisit the films of our youth to see if they hold up under the lens of nostalgia—or crumble under the weight of time! This week, we're plunging headfirst into the campy chaos of 1984's Ice Pirates. With space herpes, robot pirates, and a desert-dry water crisis, this sci-fi comedy is equal parts swashbuckling adventure and ‘80s absurdity. But does it still have treasure hidden beneath its dated special effects, or has it been lost in the black hole of bad cinema? Strap in, mateys, and let's find out! Make sure to like and subscribe where ever you are getting this! Please leave us a review and follow us on Bluesky, Reddit, and Facebook! How will Ice Pirates hold up? Host: Nic Panel: Nur, Alex, Keiko, and Matt   Directed by Stewart Raffill Starring: Robert Urich, Mary Crosby, Michael D. Roberts, Anjelica Huston, John Matuszak, Ron Perlman, John Carradine, Natalie Core, Jeremy West,  Bruce Vilanch

Welcome to Myopia Movies, the podcast where we revisit the films of our youth to see if they hold up under the lens of nostalgia—or crumble under the weight of time! This week, we're plunging headfirst into the campy chaos of 1984's Ice Pirates. With space herpes, robot pirates, and a desert-dry water crisis, this sci-fi comedy is equal parts swashbuckling adventure and ‘80s absurdity. But does it still have treasure hidden beneath its dated special effects, or has it been lost in the black hole of bad cinema? Strap in, mateys, and let's find out! Make sure to like and subscribe where ever you are getting this! Please leave us a review and follow us on Bluesky, Reddit, and Facebook! How will Ice Pirates hold up? Host: Nic Panel: Nur, Alex, Keiko, and Matt   Directed by Stewart Raffill Starring: Robert Urich, Mary Crosby, Michael D. Roberts, Anjelica Huston, John Matuszak, Ron Perlman, John Carradine, Natalie Core, Jeremy West,  Bruce Vilanch

In this episode of The Pour with Adam Montiel, Adam welcomes Michael C. Higgins, PhD—award-winning author, photographer, and storyteller who's charting the lesser-known corners of the wine world. Michael's latest book, Exploring Wine Regions – México, brings the spotlight to Mexico's hidden wine gems. From the powerhouse reds of Valle de Guadalupe to the high-altitude treasures of Guanajuato and the sparkling surprises of Querétaro, this conversation showcases a side of Mexico you didn't see coming.Michael doesn't just share his adventures south of the border—he reflects on his love affair with the Central Coast, the subject of one of his earlier books. Thanks to Timbre Winery for allowing us to record this episode of The Pour. Links from the Show: • Michael's website: exploringwineregions.com • Get Exploring Wine Regions – México: Buy Here • Follow Michael on Instagram: @exploringwineregions • Explore the full press kit: exploringwineregions.com/press-kit********Learn more about SLO Restaurant Month: Visit SLO Restaurant Month********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

In this episode of The Pour with Adam Montiel, we dive deep into the world of German wines with Lisa Tupetz, a German-born wine professional and founder of Tupetz Wine Connection. Lisa shares her inspiring journey from the vineyards of Germany to importing exclusive, terroir-driven German wines to California's shelves. We explore her innovative approach, non-alcoholic wines, her remarkable placements at The French Laundry, and her passion for connecting wine lovers with hidden gems and small producers she's made relationships with in Germany. Grab a glass and join us for a conversation and a guest that's as fun as the wines Lisa brings to the table.Connect with Lisa TupetzWebsite: Tupetz Wine ConnectionWine Shop: German Wine ShopInstagram: @tupetzwineEmail: lisa@tupetzwine.com********Learn more about SLO Restaurant Month: Visit SLO Restaurant Month********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

In this episode of The Pour with Adam Montiel, Adam takes you deep into the heart of the Loire Valley, where he sits down with Alex from Domaine des Huards. This historic estate, founded in 1846, has been lovingly passed down through seven generations of winemakers. Alex shares the vineyard's incredible journey, their embrace of organic and biodynamic farming since 1998, and the story of the rare Romorantin grape, a varietal with roots tracing back to King François I. Dive into this candid conversation about sustainability, legacy, and the enduring charm of French winemaking, blending tradition with innovation. Adam and Alex spill it all—talking about family, wine, and the passion that keeps this cherished tradition alive.Tune in to hear about what makes Domaine des Huards a true gem, the philosophy that drives their natural winemaking, and why Romorantin is a grape you need to know. Whether you're a wine lover or just curious about the people behind the wine, this episode has something special for you.Links for the Guest:Visit Domaine des Huards: WebsiteFollow Domaine des Huards on Instagram: @domainedeshuardsWhere We Stayed:Les Sources de Cheverny: Website********For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********The Pour is recorded, edited, produced, and hosted by Adam Montiel. Follow Adam on Instagram @AdamOnTheAir and check out his daily podcast Up + Adam as well as Where Wine Takes You. To connect with Adam, learn more, or for Spotify or other pod links, visit AdamMontiel.comAbout ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area's producer's grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective Moonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

In this episode of The Pour with Adam Montiel, we explore two fascinating wine stories centered on transparency and creativity. Adam Lee was best known as the founder of Siduri Wines, where he became one of California's leading voices in Pinot Noir. Since then though, he's continued to innovate, launching Clarice Wine Company and collaborating with the late Philippe Cambie on Beau Marchais, producing wines that have earned critical acclaim. Adam recently made headlines by openly comparing the sugar content of his Pinot Noir, DIal Tone, to that of a bestselling wine, MEIOMI, sparking a conversation about what's really in the glass, and why Constellation is big mad over the number 32.For more on this story, you can check out the article in the San Francisco Chronicle: Meiomi Pinot Noir Sugar Controversy (note: there may be a paywall). Alternatively, you can read the coverage from the Press Democrat:Local winemaker in hot water after challenging massive American wine brand.Later in the episode, Meghan Ball introduces Harvest Speed Tastings, an event designed to add a high-energy twist to wine tasting in Paso Robles. Joining Meghan is Connor McMahon, owner and winemaker of Full Draw Vineyards, who shares his perspective on the event and the unique way it connects wine lovers with Paso's diverse offerings. For more information on Harvest Speed Tastings, visit the official Paso Wine link: Harvest Speed Tastings on Paso Wine.Finally, don't forget to check out the latest episode of Where Wine Takes You. This episode features experts from Cal Poly's wine and viticulture program, diving into the innovative ways they are shaping the future of winemaking. Listen now by following this link: Where Wine Takes You - Cal Poly Episode.For info on Tin City Distillery's Private Barrel Club Click Here***********About ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Show Credits:Executive Producer: Adam MontielAssociate Producer: Pablo RomeroTechnical Consideration Provided By: Fly with Wine** Save 20% and get FREE Shipping when you shop at Fly with Wine by using the Promo Code: ADAM20 **Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective & Still TimeMoonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

How can I provide value to spark interest? Jeremy West breaks it down with a freshly pressed, sweat proof shirt!Teach Better Talk PodcastThe ultimate must-listen for every teacher and educational leader, Teach Better Talk dives into the key questions that drive education today.Weekly interviews with experts from around the world, sharing cutting-edge science, groundbreaking research, and practical tools to help you master the art of teaching, efficiently manage a school, and reach every learner in your community.Catch the official podcast of the Teach Better Podcast Network every Tuesday through Thursday for fresh episodes to inspire, inform, and ignite your passion for education.► Thanks for subscribing!

In this special episode of the Whistler Podcast, we hand the mic over to Shixm'el'texw (Jeremy West), a member of the Squamish Nation, for an insightful conversation with Master Carver Xwalacktun (Rick Harry) and Apprentice Brandon Hall, both from the Squamish Nation. They discuss their incredible work on a housepost commemorating the 100th anniversary of the Squamish Nation's amalgamation, their journeys in carving, and the reclamation of Indigenous arts and culture. Tune in to hear about the power of mentorship, community, and the deep connection between art and heritage.

In this episode I'm sharing Jeremy West interviewing me about finding your Intuitive Edge on the Catalyst Conversations podcast.     Join Black Friday Bankroll: www.intuitiveedgecoaching.com/bfbr and use code BANKROLL to take $388 off if you register before 7/22.     Love the show? PLEASE leave a 5 star review! If all of our listeners left a 5-star review it would REALLY help us grow the show. When you leave a review, we'll shout you out on the next episode. Thank you in advance for reviewing.

Welcome to another episode of ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel. Today, we're honored to be joined by a true icon in the winemaking world, Randall Grahm. Known for his innovative and often unconventional approach to winemaking, Randall is the visionary behind Bonny Doon Vineyard and now his latest venture, The Language of Yes.Randall Grahm's journey in the wine industry is nothing short of legendary. He started his career with the ambitious goal of producing "The Great American Pinot Noir" but found his true calling with Rhône varieties. His groundbreaking work with these grapes earned him the moniker "The Rhône Ranger," a title that has stuck with him ever since his 1989 Wine Spectator cover. Over the years, Randall has been recognized with numerous awards, including the Wine and Spirits Professional of the Year by the James Beard Foundation and induction into the Vintner's Hall of Fame.Today, we are recording from the beautiful Edna Valley, the new home of Randall's latest brand, The Language of Yes. This venture is a continuation of Randall's quest to create wines that truly reflect their terroir. The Language of Yes is all about embracing the unique characteristics of the Central Coast, with small-batch experiments and a deep love of the land guiding its creation.Be sure to visit The Language of Yes to learn more about these extraordinary wines and to make a reservation for a tasting at their Edna Valley location. Until next time, keep exploring, keep tasting, and as always, leave it all on the table.**********The Pour is going to France - and you can join us HERE!***********About ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Show Credits:Executive Producer: Adam MontielAssociate Producer: Pablo RomeroTechnical Consideration Provided By: Fly with Wine** Save 20% and get FREE Shipping when you shop at Fly with Wine by using the Promo Code: ADAM20 **Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective & Still TimeMoonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

The Pour is going to France - and you can join us HERE!***********John Munch, a true maverick of the wine world, left an indelible mark on the Paso Robles wine community with his fearless approach and innovative spirit. Arriving in Paso Robles in the late 1970s, John quickly became a pivotal figure in the region's burgeoning wine industry. His winery, Le Cuvier, stands as a testament to his dedication to allowing the grapes to express their natural character through minimal intervention and extended barrel aging. Even as he passed the winemaking reins to Clay Selkirk, John's influence and philosophy continue to shape the unique offerings of Le Cuvier.In this special episode, we honor John Munch's legacy by sharing a heartfelt interview where he reminisces about the early days and his close relationship with Neil Collins, winemaker of Tablas Creek and Lone Madrone. Neil's tribute beautifully encapsulates the profound impact John had on those around him. This clip is from Episode 27 of my podcast "Where Wine Takes You." To listen to the entire episode, check it out here. We hope this episode provides a glimpse into the life and legacy of a true wine pioneer. For those who wish to explore the wines crafted under John's guiding principles, visit Le Cuvier Winery and discover the unique and expressive wines that continue to honor his legacy. Thank you for joining us in celebrating the remarkable life of John Munch.**********About ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Show Credits:Executive Producer: Adam MontielAssociate Producer: Pablo RomeroTechnical Consideration Provided By: Fly with Wine** Save 20% and get FREE Shipping when you shop at Fly with Wine by using the Promo Code: ADAM20 **Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective & Still TimeMoonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

The Pour is going to France - and you can join us HERE!***********(John Couch Interview begins at the 13:00 min mark)Today on "The Pour with Adam Montiel," we have the privilege of speaking with a true innovator and visionary whose career has spanned multiple industries, leaving an indelible mark on each. John Couch is perhaps best known for his trailblazing work in technology, where he held the distinguished title of Apple's first Vice President of Education. During his tenure, John led initiatives that revolutionized the way technology is integrated into classrooms, fostering an era of digital learning that continues to shape the education landscape today.But John's journey doesn't stop there. A man of diverse talents and interests, he has recently transitioned from the world of tech to the scenic beauty of San Luis Obispo, embracing the rich culture and community of California's Central Coast. Here, John has embarked on a new venture that combines his passion for innovation with his love for viticulture, establishing Couch Family Wines. His dedication to excellence and his drive to create something truly unique is evident in every bottle, reflecting the same pioneering spirit that characterized his time at Apple.Join us as we dive into John Couch's remarkable journey from Silicon Valley to the vineyards of San Luis Obispo, exploring how his experiences have shaped his approach to winemaking and what he envisions for the future of Couch Family Wines. You can learn more about his winery at Couch Family Wines. This is an interview you won't want to miss.**********About ‘The Pour with Adam Montiel':In 2010, Radio Host Adam Montiel combined his longtime love for broadcasting with his, then, new love for wine. He created and produced, ‘The Cork Dorks'. The show was hosted with Adam and his good friend Jeremy West. It was the first of its kind. It began focusing on central coast wineries but as the show grew, so did their ability to travel and meet other winemakers they found everywhere from Napa to Bordeaux that adopted that same Central Coast quality of people willing to share their wines, and their stories. As the area grew, soon Adam's interview's covered everything from spirits, craft beer, cider, cuisine, hospitality, and more. Fast forward to today, the spirit and enthusiasm cultivated with the award winning show, is reborn as The Pour with Adam Montiel, this time independently, and unfettered by corporate authority leaving it even more free to share the journey of making wine more approachable and fun for everyone.  Here, We Taste It. We Spill It. We Leave it All On the Table. This is ‘The Pour' with Adam Montiel.__________Sincere Thanks to those who support The Pour. Please take a moment and visit them and thank them for supporting local broadcasting, and valuing what we do here. Thank you for supporting them!Show Credits:Executive Producer: Adam MontielAssociate Producer: Pablo RomeroTechnical Consideration Provided By: Fly with Wine** Save 20% and get FREE Shipping when you shop at Fly with Wine by using the Promo Code: ADAM20 **Original Music, ‘Come Alive' by Dan Curcio and Moonshiner Collective & Still TimeMoonshiner on Spotify HEREFollow Adam on Instagram HEREPlease Rate, Review, and Subscribe to the podcast, and learn more at AdamMontiel.com

Matthew Ross talks about how field training officers affect police use of force. “The Effect of Field Training Officers on Police Use of Force” by Chandon Adger, Matthew Ross, and CarlyWill Sloan. *** Probable Causation is part of Doleac Initiatives, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit. If you enjoy the show, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution. Thank you for supporting our work! *** OTHER RESEARCH WE DISCUSS IN THIS EPISODE: “A Few Bad Apples? Racial Bias in Policing” by Felipe Goncalves & Steven Mello. “Does Race Matter for Police Use of Force? Evidence from 911 Calls” by Mark Hoekstra and CarlyWill Sloan. [American Economic Review forthcoming]. “Randomized Controlled Trial of Social Interaction Police Training” by Kyle McLean, Scott E. Wolfe, Jeff Rojek, Geoffrey P. Alpert, and Michael R. Smith. “Is Police Training an Effective Intervention for Addressing Disparities?” by Hunter Johnson, Stephen L. Ross, and Steve Mello. [Available from the authors]. “Can You Build a Better Cop? Experimental Evidence on Supervision, Training, and Policing in the Community” by Emily Owens, David Weisburd, Karen L. Amendola, and Geoffrey P. Alpert. “Learning By Doing in Law Enforcement” by Jeremy West. “The Effect of Minority Peers on Future Arrest Quantity and Quality” by Roman Rivera. “Peer Effects in Police Use of Force” by Justin Holz, Roman Rivera and Bocar Ba. “Whose Help is on the Way? The Importance of Individual Police Officers in Law Enforcement Outcomes” by Emily Weisburst. “A Cognitive View of Police Misconduct” by Oendrila Dube, Sandy Jo MacArthur, and Anuj Shah [Paper available from the authors]. “Proud to Belong: The Impact of Ethics Training on Police Officers” by Donna Harris, Oana Borcan, Danila Serra, Henry Telli, Bruno Schettini, and Stefan Dercon. Episode 73 of Probable Causation: Danila Serra.

Jeremy West served in the Scotland, Edinburgh Mission from August 2003 through August of 2005. He comes on and shares his memories of showing NEDs what being a missionary is all about in Glasgow, pole vaulting practice with Elder Willis, and learning to skateboard in Inverness. Jeremy currently lives in the northern part of Dallas, Texas, with his wife and their 4 children. Recorded August 22, 2022

I first met Peter Arcidiacano, professor of economics at Duke University, while I was a PhD student at the University of Georgia and I have followed his work since from a distance. I originally followed Peters work because he’d written several articles about sex from a two-sided matching perspective. I was struck by the fact that we both saw thinking about sexual relationships in terms of a matching problem. Two sided matching perspectives focus on the assignment mechanisms that bring people together, and when it comes to sexual relationships, the relative supply of possible partners and competition for those partners will in equilibrium result in pairings, some of which may become the most life sustaining and defining partnerships of those peoples lives. Peter’s work was gratifying to read, and I have often looked up to him for his successful merging of theory and econometrics to study topics I cared about. The economic way of thinking is not about topics, nor is it is not about data, even though economists tend to have particular topics they study intensely and use data usually to do so. The economic way of thinking does though typically involve careful study of allocation mechanisms, such as prices and markets, that bring the productive capacity of communities into existence. These things are important as they animate humans to work together, produce output that manages the production itself, and increasingly towards the end of history, left surplus for humans to enjoy. Who ends up in what activities doing what types of specialized work ultimately shapes that which is made, how much and how it is distributed. The allocations end up not only shaping our lives, but our children’s lives. Starting conditions can cast a long shadow lasting centuries even causing certain groups to creep ahead as more and more of the surplus mounts and accrues to them, while others watch as a shrinking part of the growing pie flows to them.In the United States, in the 21st century, one of the key institutions in all of this assignment of love and commerce has been the university. And within the university system, there are gradations of institutional pedigree and at the top of the pack sits elite institutions whose students seem practically destined to shape and receive the surplus. Given the path dependence in wealth, and how it has interacted with race, it is therefore no wonder that policymakers and economists have for decades sought to refine the rules by which schools can select high school applicants for admission. In many ways, our country’s fight over the use of race in selecting students into college is the old debates about capitalism and the self adjusting market system writ large. So it’s in this broader context about work, schools, matching and allocation mechanisms that I think of Peter and his scholarship. When I review the range of topics on Peters vita, I see the signature marks of the modern 21st century labor economist. Someone interested in markets and how they work to connect people into productive cooperation. Someone interested in institutions, someone concerned about inequality and discrimination, someone versed both in economic theory and econometrics, someone at home with a bewildering array of numbers in a spreadsheet. To me, it is natural that Peter has pivoted so fluidly between topics like sex, work, discrimination and higher education because in my mind these are all interconnected topics concerning the assignment mechanisms we use in America to organize society and maintain our collective standard of living.I invited Peter on the Mixtape with Scott as part of an ongoing series I call “economists and public policy”. The series focuses on how economics and economists think about and attempt to shape public policy. It includes people with a variety of perspectives, and even some who are critics of economics itself. Previous guests on the podcast in the “economists and public policy” series have been Sandy Darity, Elizabeth Popp Berman, Anna Stansbury, Mark Anderson, Alan Manning, Larry Katz, Jeremy West and Jonathan Meer. Peter has not only produced academic articles in some of economics’ most impactful outlets — he has recently served as expert witness in two major discrimination cases, one of which put him on the opposite side of the stand as David Card, winner of 2021 Nobel Prize in economics. You can read about the cases here. They involve the broader topic of race and affirmative action at universities. The cases more specifically involve whether Harvard and UNC Chapel Hill admissions criteria show signs of discrimination. One of the things about Peter’s involvement as expert witness that I want to highlight, though, is that his expert testimony was, at its core, an example of the role that econometrics can play in the shaping of public policy. It is more and more the case that economics’ role in the shaping of public policy in the 21st century will involve not merely economic theory, but also statistical analysis of complex datasets too, and I think it is worth pausing and noting that the economist shapes public policy oftentimes these days as much through interpreting data as her counterpart did using pure economic theory. I hope you find this discussion with Peter thought provoking and informative about both his work on these cases, but also about the role of economics and econometrics in forming public policy. But I also hope that the interview will give you a deeper insight into Peter and who he is. Scott’s Substack as well as The Mixtape with Scott are supported by user subscriptions. Please share this episode to people within and outside economics that you think might be interested. I love doing these interviews and using the substack to do deeper dives into econometrics and the lives of economists and if you find this work valuable, please consider subscribing and supporting it. Scott's Substack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptScott Cunningham:In this week's episode of Mixtape: the Podcast, I had the pleasure of talking with a professor at Duke University, named Peter Arcidiacono. I can never pronounce it correctly, no matter how many times I try. I first met Peter in graduate school. He was, probably then, an assistant professor at Duke, where he has spent his entire career. I was a PhD student at the University of Georgia. And he had a research paper on a topic that I was also working on, involving marriage markets. He's been an incredibly prolific producer in the area of labor economics and education, as well as affirmative action. And he uses tools in econometrics, that I largely never invested in, structural econometrics and discrete choice modeling. So when I read his work, I usually do it, both, because I'm interested in the paper and the paper topic, but also because I'm hoping that this will be a chance for me to open my mind a little bit more, and pick up on some of that econometric modeling, that I lack.Peter is also an expert witness in a high profile case, right now, involving affirmative action and racial discrimination at Harvard University, and the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, both of which have been combined into a single case. As I understand it, it's going for the Supreme court soon. In this interview, we walk through a lot of big and small issues around society's preferences around poverty, inequality, as well as the role that higher education is playing in both. My name is Scott Cunningham, and this is Mixtape: the Podcast.Scott Cunningham:Okay. This is great. I don't know if you remember. So this is an interview with professor of economics at Duke University, Peter Arcidiacono. And we're going to be talking about a range of topics. But just to give the reader and the listener a little bit of background, Peter, could you tell me a little bit about yourself, and what your involvement is with a current case, going before the Supreme court, involving University of North Carolina and Harvard University?Peter Arcidiacono:Certainly. And thanks for having me on. I've been at Duke now, for over 20 years. This was my first job out of grad school, and stayed here ever since. And a lot of my work has been on higher education, both with regard to choice of college major, as well as affirmative action.And one of the really dissatisfying things about working on affirmative action, is that universities hide their data. So you can't really get a good sense of how the programs are working, because you typically don't have the data. And I think that that really matters, because to me, so much of the discussion about affirmative action, is in the binary. Either we have it, or we don't have it. But what it means to have it, is something, as economists, we would think about, that's something we would be optimizing over. And so, there's really a large space between race as a tiebreaker in admissions, and what somebody like Abraham Kennedy would advocate for, which would be more of a quota system.And so, thinking about where you stand on that, to me, I had this opportunity to work on these two cases, two lawsuits. One brought against Harvard, and one against UNC, on the role of race in these admissions processes. And for me, it was an opportunity to look behind the veil, and see how these programs actually operated.My intent was always to, a feeling as though, if I'm going to be an expert on affirmative action, I should know how these processes actually work. So my intent was always to use this for the purposes of research, as well. And we've written a number of papers out of the Harvard case. Four have been accepted now, and we just released a fifth one on racial preferences of both schools. And we'll see what happens with that. So those lawsuits, I testified in trial, at both those cases. My counterpart in the Harvard case was David Card, who recently won the Nobel Prize. I was wondering how I would respond to that. And actually, my response, I got to go up against a Nobel Prize winner.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:So those experiences were somewhat traumatizing. But both experts, David Card and Kevin Hoxby, are pillars in the field, and people who have been very helpful to me, and who I have a great deal of respect for.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:So these cases have now, in both those cases, the side I was on lost at the first round. In the Harvard case, they also lost at the appellate round.Peter Arcidiacono:In UNC, it didn't actually go through the appellate round, because-Scott Cunningham:Oh, so-Peter Arcidiacono:... supreme court merged the cases.Scott Cunningham:... Both the Harvard University case and the Chapel Hill case, were already decided, but not at the Supreme Court level.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:So the decision was appealed. It's now before the Supreme Court.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:I think the Supreme Court scheduled here, arguments in October, and then, we'll see when they release a decision.Scott Cunningham:Okay. So, and these are both cases involving affirmative action and racial discrimination amongst particular groups of people? Is that groups of students, is that right?Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. Though, in the UNC case, there's actually no claim of Asian American discrimination. So that actually, you only see that at Harvard. You don't see that at UNC. That doesn't mean, I think that Asian discrimination is unique to Harvard.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:I think it has to do with the fact of there not being that many Asian Americans in North Carolina.Scott Cunningham:North Carolina, right.Peter Arcidiacono:It's always been a bigger issue at the very top schools.Scott Cunningham:And you were called in, as an expert witness, for the plaintiff in both of those cases.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:Right. So David Card is the expert witness for Harvard, representing Harvard, against an accusation of, well, what exactly is the accusation against both of these institutions, and who brought these accusations against them?Peter Arcidiacono:So the group is called Students for Fair Admissions. And they basically got groups of students to, as their plaintiffs. Though, it's not about those particular students, in terms of remedies. And in Harvard, there's three claims. One, whether or not they're discriminating against Asian American applicants, relative to white applicants.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:Two, whether the size of the preferences given for underrepresented groups, is constitutional.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And three, whether there were race-neutral alternatives that they could have used. So the Supreme Court has said, "If there is a race-neutral alternative, you should use that."Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:I'm not really involved at the race-neutral part. We had a different expert for that aspect.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:Though, in both cases, Card and Hoxby actually did the race-neutral part, as well.Scott Cunningham:What exactly does the constitution say a admissions committee can use, when drawing up a student cohort?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, so I'm not sure what the constitution has to say on it, but I can say what the history of this of the court challenges have been.Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:So I think, it's Title VI of Civil Rights Act said, "You're not supposed to use race-"Scott Cunningham:Race.Peter Arcidiacono:"... in these types of things." And there are other categories too.Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:But race is the focus of this one. Now, the reason they had that, was because of the history of ill treatment of African Americans.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And this is obviously going in the other direction-Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:... with regard to African Americans receiving preferences in the admissions process.Scott Cunningham:Mm. Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So, but then, the history was that the original decision, the Bakke case, said, "Look, you can't use race in admissions, because of reparations. You can only use it because of the benefits of diversity." So the state can have an interest in diversity. And that was a compromised position to get that swing justice, to sign onto it.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:Since then, there have been a number of cases. I think the ones that are most relevant right now, are the ones that came out of the Michigan cases.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And there was one at the undergraduate level, which they found that you could not use race as part of an explicit point system.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So you can get points for having a good SAT score, points for being a particular race, you add them up together, then you could rank the-Scott Cunningham:I see.Peter Arcidiacono:... applicant.Scott Cunningham:So there were schools that were doing a point system based on individual characteristics, like race. And that was, at that moment, it was unclear whether that would be legal. It was, I guess, or was it something that schools were, potentially, in a legal, bad situation, when they were using it? Or was it just not known?Peter Arcidiacono:I don't think it was clear. And that's where the court ruled. You cannot use it in that way.Scott Cunningham:Got it. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:At the same time, there was a case against Harvard's Law School. And on that one, they said that you could use race, holistically. As an economist, I can express anything as a formula. And then, the question is, whether you see all parts of the formula or not.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:So it gets a little tricky. And I think that, from my perspective, I would've rather had the ruling go in the exact opposite way.[inaudible 00:11:59] on if we're going to find in favor of one or the other.I would prefer a point system to a holistic one, because then, everything's clear.Scott Cunningham:Clear. Yeah. It seemed really precise-Peter Arcidiacono:[inaudible 00:12:09], to hide their data.Scott Cunningham:... Yeah. It seems like lots of times with the law, the imprecision of this language, as though it's a solution to the problem, is really challenging for designing policy.Peter Arcidiacono:I totally agree. Yeah.Scott Cunningham:So, okay. I want to set up the reader a little bit, oh, the listener, to know who you are before we dive into this, because I'm loving this thread, but I want people to know who you are. So before we get more into the case, can you tell me where you grew up, and why you got into economics? Your first, what was the touchstone that brought you into this field?Peter Arcidiacono:So I grew up in the Pacific Northwest. My first set of years were actually in Ellensburg, Washington, which is a town of 13,000. My dad was a math education professor.Scott Cunningham:Oh, okay. What university was he a professor at?Peter Arcidiacono:Central Washington University.Scott Cunningham:Okay. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:And then-Scott Cunningham:Hey, but what'd you say it was? What was it again?Peter Arcidiacono:... It was math education.Scott Cunningham:Math education.Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah. So he was teaching teachers how to teach math.Scott Cunningham:Oh. So you've always been, it's in the family to be interested in education?Peter Arcidiacono:Yes. And-Scott Cunningham:And even this math education part. That's another way of describing an economist that studies education.Peter Arcidiacono:... Right.Scott Cunningham:Math education.Peter Arcidiacono:Well, my parents actually met in linear algebra class, so.Scott Cunningham:Oh, that's romantic.Peter Arcidiacono:And I've got two brothers, and they were both math majors.Scott Cunningham:Oh, wow. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:I was the only non-math major.Scott Cunningham:Okay. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:But I came into college, and started out in chemistry. I think, Econ PhD programs are filled with former, hard science majors.Scott Cunningham:No joke. Yeah, yeah. They hit organic chemistry, and then, they changed their major.Peter Arcidiacono:Right. And I just couldn't stand the lab. It was too social. And one of my good friends, a guy who ended up being the best man at my wedding, was a couple years ahead of me, told me I should take an economics class.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And it was amazing. I think that just the way of thinking, just worked naturally for me.Scott Cunningham:Well, so when you say way of thinking, the way of thinking that was, can you tell me what your 19 year old self would've been jarred by? What are the specific things, that economic way of thinking, that he was noticing?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, it just fit with a lot of how I operated. So I view economics as a great model of fallen man.Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh.Peter Arcidiacono:Fundamentally, I was the guy who always looked for the loopholes. So responding really well to incentives. I had a keen eye for how I could game the system.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And so, I think a lot about what economics is doing, is the dismal science, right? The reigns on the parade of well-intentioned policies.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:How are people going to get around the policies? Well, that's where I lived, was figuring out how I could game the system.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right. So you were, this idea of that rational choice paradigm, is that what you mean?Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:And that-Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:... that people would just simply, if they have goals, those goals don't just go away with a policy. They might just continue to try to achieve those goals at lowest cost, even then.Peter Arcidiacono:Exactly.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And the other studying thing, which I think, really affected why I ended up doing the research that I did, was, for me, the chemistry classes were just way harder-Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh.Peter Arcidiacono:... than economics classes.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And I'm not trying to say that any classes are easy.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:But there is definitely large differences-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... in every university, and what the expectations are-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... across fields.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And that distorts people's behavior.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So I view it, that most colleges are subsidizing students, to go into low paying fields. And how do they subsidize them to do that? They offer higher grades-Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:... and lower workloads, smaller class sizes. All those things work, so that lots of people come in wanting to major in well-paying fields, and switch in, and switch out.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And they do so because of the incentives the universities provide.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. So you got interested in economics, and that's like, you're describing some sort of price theory, microeconomics. But you've also have made a career out of being such a strong econometrician in this area of structural econometrics and discrete choice modeling. How did you get interested in those topics? What was your first reaction to econometrics?Peter Arcidiacono:I had a very strange econometrics background. So my first year econometrics, was taught by Chuck Manski.Scott Cunningham:Oh.Peter Arcidiacono:The whole year. And so, it was lots of bounds.Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh.Peter Arcidiacono:And then, my second year, it was all John Rust.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So a complete swing, right? So you go from the non-parametrics, what can you identify under the smallest number of assumptions?Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:To what can you identify, if you want an answer something really big.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:You got to make a lot of assumptions to make that.Scott Cunningham:Oh, boy. That's an interesting journey, right there.Peter Arcidiacono:So I actually never had the mostly harmless econometric-Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... at all.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And the econometrics has always been-Scott Cunningham:This was Wisconsin?Peter Arcidiacono:... That's right.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:What year was this?Peter Arcidiacono:In the econometrics, the advances were always more, because I needed to do something to estimate my models.Scott Cunningham:Right. This was mid nineties? This would've been the mid nineties, or late nineties?Peter Arcidiacono:I'd like to say late nineties. Yeah-Scott Cunningham:Late nineties? Okay. Yeah-Peter Arcidiacono:... [inaudible 00:19:10].Scott Cunningham:... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, keep going. Sorry.Peter Arcidiacono:So I was thinking about my own experience, in terms of choosing a college major, and thinking about, Well, people are learning over time. They start out those STEM classes, and figured out, wow, this is a little bit harder than I expected.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And then, moved through.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:So I had a mind, I actually had the idea for my job market paper, my first year. And had this idea of a forward looking model, of how people choose their college major.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And so, then, I go into John Rust's office, because he's my second year econometrics professor, and was describing this problem to him, that people are making decisions today, giving expectations about the future.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And he says, "Yeah, I think I can help you with that." And I was like, "No, you don't understand. This is a really hard problem." And of course, John Rust had written the [inaudible 00:20:13] paper about how to estimate these types of models-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... And he was fantastic with me. [inaudible 00:20:20]. He didn't say idiot. You could at least look at what I do, before you come to my office. He was fantastic with me.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And actually, the funny story about that too, is he's actually the only reason I'm an economics professor, because-Scott Cunningham:Oh, yeah?Peter Arcidiacono:... I only got into one grad school. Got rejected from much worse places in Wisconsin. It was the only place that accepted me.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And the joke was that that was the year John rusted everybody in. So there were 53 of us to [inaudible 00:20:57].Scott Cunningham:That's awesome.Peter Arcidiacono:17 got PhDs.Scott Cunningham:Wow.Peter Arcidiacono:And if you look at another guy, one of my friends, I just actually found out we were actually at a conference in honor of John Rust, this past weekend.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And it turns out, that was the only place that admitted him, as well. And he's been incredibly successful too.Scott Cunningham:The John Rust fixed effect is filled with stories.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:That's really cool. That's really cool. I'm curious, thinking about what your, I want get to the Harvard and the Chapel Hill. But before we move on, you could imagine, had you gone to Princeton, or MIT, and worked with, or Berkeley, and worked with these, the treatment effects guys, like Imbens, and Angrist, and Card, and Kruger, and O'Reilly, and all these people. It's not just that your knowledge of econometrics would've been slightly different. Even the kinds of questions, that you would be asking, might be different. So I'm curious, what do you think your training and structural, under Manski and Rust, how has that shaped, not just the way you do your work, but even the types of questions that you ask, that you imagine, you might not have asked? For instance, just even thinking, modeling choice-Peter Arcidiacono:[Inaudible 00:22:40].Scott Cunningham:I'm sorry. I don't know. Did I lose you?Peter Arcidiacono:You froze on me.Scott Cunningham:Ah, I froze? Okay-Peter Arcidiacono:You're still frozen.Scott Cunningham:... I'm still frozen? Okay. There. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:Now, you're back. So you're asking about what types of questions.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. What kinds of questions do you think you ended up being really interested in, and working on? Not just the model that you wrote down, but even the actual topics. Because I'm curious, I'm wondering if listeners could really frame their understanding of this structural, versus this causal inference, tradition. Not just in terms of the technical pieces, but like this is practically how, the work a person ends up, that you think you ended up doing, versus if you had got Angrist as an advisor.Peter Arcidiacono:Oh, I think it has shaped me quite a bit. I am certain that if I'd gone to a place like Chicago, I would've probably ended up working with Steve Levitt. I am naturally attracted to some of those topics, that are more of a freakaconomics-type nature. And if you look at it, we actually had competing papers-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... on discrimination in the Weakest Link game show.Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And I've written a couple of sports papers. So I have that in me, to think about those types of things. If I'm-Scott Cunningham:Topics, right? Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... Yeah.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:I think that the Manski Rust combination did have a big effect on me, and, in the types of questions that I asked. Which is what structural brings to the table, is thinking about mechanisms.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So when you think about the effect of affirmative action on outcomes, understanding why the effect is what it is, matters.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:How it affects application behaviors. How is affects what majors issues. What would be those counterfactuals? And for that, I think you need some of these structural approaches.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:Now, one of the things about those structural approaches, to say, typically involve making some pretty big assumptions.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And I think that that's where the Manski influences had on me, because I also have papers that use subjective expectations data. And I think that that is actually an incredibly promising area of work.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:It's quite clear that people don't know as much as they should know, when they make important decisions. Certainly, higher education being a prime example of that.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:COVID really makes that clear, you know? How can it be that the people who are unvaccinated, are least likely to wear a mask? Clearly, they're operating under very different beliefs about-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... what's going to happen.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right. Right. Okay. So let's move into this Harvard Chapel Hill project. So setting it up, tell me, what is the first event that happens, that makes this a case against Harvard? Not counting alleged discrimination, but the actual historical event, that leads to a need for an expert witness.Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think the need for the expert witness came about, because Harvard had to release their data, in the context of the trial.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So in the context of the lawsuit, the claim was there were some smoking guns that suggested the possibility, for example, of Asian American discriminationScott Cunningham:That would not fit this holistic criteria, that you mentioned earlier?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, so, it's an interesting question, right? So you can't have with the holistic criteria, you can take race into account, but the question is whether you could take race into account, in a way that penalizes a group, relative to white applicants?Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:So it might be one thing to say, "We're going to give a bump for African Americans, relative to whites."Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:Maybe another thing to say, "We're going to give a bump for whites, relative to Asian Americans."Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Okay. So they've had a lawsuit brought against Harvard. Harvard's had a lawsuit filed against them. What year is-Peter Arcidiacono:[inaudible 00:27:32]. Sorry, say it again.Scott Cunningham:What year would that have been?Peter Arcidiacono:Oh, man. I think it was back in 2015, or something like that.Scott Cunningham:2015. Did anybody see that coming? Or was this odd, this is just inevitable?Peter Arcidiacono:I think that, they were advertising for plaintiffs, students who had been rejected. So certainly, there was an intent to file such a lawsuit, for sure. And then, they had to weigh what universities to file it against. And they chose Harvard, because of the patterns on what were going on with Asian Americans. And I think UNC had more to do with the, there was some evidence in the record, from past cases, that race-neutral alternatives would work there.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm. Okay. So you get involved. How do you get selected as the expert witness? And what's your job, exactly, in all this?Peter Arcidiacono:So I think I get selected, I've written a couple of survey articles on affirmative action. And I view it that there are lots of nuances. So the fact that I would actually say there are nuances, as opposed to it being always good-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... made it attractive for them, I think.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And back in 2011, there was actually a protest here, at Duke, over one of my studies.Scott Cunningham:Oh, really?Peter Arcidiacono:Yes. So that one, we were actually using Duke data, and confronting a tough fact, which is lots of black students at Duke came in, wanted to major in STEM and economics, but switched out. In exploring why they were switching out at such a higher rate, relative to white applicants.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:So for men, it was very extreme.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:8% of white men switched out of STEM and economics-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... to a non-STEM, non-economics major. Over 50% of black males switched out. And you look at that, you think, that's a problem.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And once you account for the differences in academic background, prior to Duke, all those racial gaps go away. And I think what, the path to the protest to serve in the long run. So I won't get into all details of that, but I think that they didn't believe the fact at first.Scott Cunningham:And what was the fact exactly, that the racial discrimination, the racial bias, the racial differences vanished, once you conditioned on what, exactly?Peter Arcidiacono:I conditioned on academic background.Scott Cunningham:Oh, I see. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:Course and such like that. But I think even the original effect, they were surprised by, which was that the switch out rates were so different.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And at that time-Scott Cunningham:But why is that a protest against you? What does that have to do with you, if you're just documenting facts?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think that the negative press headline said, potentially racist study says black students are taking the easy way out. And so-Scott Cunningham:Potentially racist study.Peter Arcidiacono:Potentially racist study. Yes.Scott Cunningham:This study was racist.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. And I think that the issue, it actually makes a lot more sense now, than it did to me at the time. And economists thought this was crazy at the time. It's actually interesting, because I got attacked from people all over the country. It didn't make a major news flash, but within certain circles, it did. And actually, one of the people who wrote about it at the time, was Abraham Kendi. This was before he changed his name. He's not the, he wasn't famous in the same way that he is now. But the fact that I wasn't pointing the finger at the departments, I was pointing the finger, I think it was interpreted as victim blaming. It's their fault that they're switching out because they're not prepared. That's never how I would want to frame it. I would want, to me, this is, the issue is that you're not prepared-Scott Cunningham:You think you framed it?Peter Arcidiacono:No, I don't think so. But the way economists talk about things is different.Scott Cunningham:I know. I think that something, I think we're, a generous view is that we can't, we don't know what we sound like or something. I get into this a lot with my work on sex work, and I've, I work really hard to try to be very factual. And it, the use of words can be so triggering to a group of people. And I can never, I still can't quite articulate what exactly it is, in hindsight, that I, what word I used that was so wrong. But you feel like you would write that paper differently now?Peter Arcidiacono:Knowing that non economists would read it? Yes.Scott Cunningham:What would you do differently?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think, you have to be much more, when I say, it counts for the differences in switching behavior.Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:The way other people hear that, is I'm able to explain why every single person switches their major, and has nothing to do with other factors. That's the reductionist claim against economists, as opposed to, on average, this is occurring.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So I did a radio interview at the time, and one of the people on the show was a blogger from Racialicious, who was a regular on the show. And-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... I didn't really know anything about the show, going in.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And she spent, so she got to go first, and she talked about how problematic my study was. And the way she described it, were ways that I did not think was consistent.Scott Cunningham:With what the the study was.Peter Arcidiacono:Right. And so, my response to that, really, by grace-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... was to say, if I thought that was what the paper was saying, I'd be upset too. And then, was able to pivot into, look, we're actually on the same side on this. We want black students at Duke to succeed in the majors that they're interested in. And to that point, we need to identify the barriers that are affecting that, and what resources we can provide, to make it so that that would not be the case.Scott Cunningham:So what are you going to say to your old, let's say you could go back in time, 10 years to that young economist, writing this paper. Without telling him exactly what specifically to say, you can only say a general principle. As you think about writing this, I want you to think about writing it in a different way. What exactly should you be? I guess, what I'm getting at, is how would you pause, what is, what pedagogically should we be communicating to young economists, about language and audience, that we haven't been doing historically, so that we are not unnecessarily tripping people up and creating confusion?Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really tricky, because on a lot of things, it's just very hard to have a discussion where the emotions are not involved.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:So when you speak about things related to race, and you talk about things in a very matter of factual way-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... that can be heard as you don't care.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:You are not interested in fixing the problem at all. You're just explaining away why we don't need to do anything.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And that's how, there's actually this marriage book, I really like, which is, again, I'm going to say this, it's going to come across as stereotyping. This is obviously distributions overlap, but it's called Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti. And the ideas is that men compartmentalize everything. So we're talking about this specific issue, not seeing how it relates to the broader picture.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:The advice, the marriage advice I always give now, is don't try to solve your wife's problems. That's always a mistake.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And, but that's effectively, as economists, exactly what we do. We are working in the little waffle box.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:Focused on this particular problem.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And I don't know how to change that with regard to economics papers. I really try to be very nuanced in my language and such.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:Maybe in how you motivate the paper, recognizing the racial inequities and the historical discrimination.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:But there is a sense in which it will not be enough.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah. There's this, I can't, I just now drew a blank on the, I teach it all. I can see the slide in my deck, but there's a famous computer scientist. And he says, this principal about writing code, and he says, "Be conservative in what you do, and be liberal in what you accept from others." And it's this principle of code writing, which I guess is like, he's basically saying, "When you write code, it needs to be, the noise to signal ratio needs to be very, very low. You need to be very clear in what it's doing, in a very efficient choice to minimize this, these unnecessary errors." But when you're receiving the code, either from your earlier part of the code, or for some other foreign source, you have to change your viewpoint in that sense, because really, the goal, when you're on the receiving end of the code, it seems like your goal is to be this antenna.Scott Cunningham:And this antenna is trying to extract information from any meaningful information from the noise. And so, you have to have, as a listener, a certain amount of grace that tolerates that this other person may make mistakes, doesn't say it all right, goes really, really to great lengths to try to, you go to great lengths, to try to figure out exactly what the message is, and what it isn't. And it does seem like, successful communication is a, about a sender who is being clear, and a receiver that is being charitable in what they're going to allow the sender to say, unless the goal is conflict.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:If the goal is conflict, then obviously, you don't do that. What you do with conflict, is you find the most bad, then, it's just bad faith. It's just like, trap a person, win the debate. And sometimes, many of us don't realize who we're talking to. We don't know if we're talking to a good faith or a bad faith person. But there's limits, I think, to what an economist or anyone can do, if the person they're talking to really is not interested in connecting.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. And it's interesting, because I think when I either speak publicly, or even giving seminars to economics audiences, the first part is building trust.Scott Cunningham:Totally.Peter Arcidiacono:We have the same goals.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:We may have different views about how to get there. And I've got some information that may change your mind on this.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And the issue is whether they can hear the information I say, or if it's going to be ruled out because I'm a bad person.Scott Cunningham:Right. Well, let me ask you something. So these tests for, okay, so you correct me where my thinking is wrong. Testing for racial discrimination in admissions. I could imagine econometrics one, I get the data set from Harvard, and I run a regression of admit onto a race dummy.Peter Arcidiacono:Right.Scott Cunningham:And then, I interpret the statistical significance on the race dummy. And then, I add in more observables. In what sense is this, philosophically, what we are trying to do in the United States, legally, to detect for whatever it is that's violating the constitution. And in what sense is it a big fat failure, that's not what we're trying to do? Can you elaborate that as a multivariate regression-Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah. So I think, how to interpret that beginning coefficient, I don't think that coefficient has much of an interpretation, particularly in admissions, because of who applies. And that was, one of the papers that we published on this, is about Harvard's recruiting practices.Scott Cunningham:... Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And Harvard, they recruit a lot of people. And particularly, African Americans, who simply have no chance of admission. And so, you could make it. And that could be part of the reason, right, would be, we want to appear as though when you do just that one regression with that one variable-Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:... through affecting my applicant pool, I can always make it so that coefficient-Scott Cunningham:So what happening? So if I've got a university, just in real simple sense, let's say a university, if they're white, they span their, they basically task to the university, to whoever, and they say, "Get a pool of white applicants, use this rule. Get a pool of black applicants, use this rule." And it's just very, very different rules.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:Okay. If I then run a regression, how in the world am I going to detect racial preference in admission, when racial preference was used in the drawing up of the application in the first place?Peter Arcidiacono:So I think that's where, I think one of the principles that, it's not randomization for sure.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:But one of the key principles, is how do you think about selection on observables versus unobservables?Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Right, right.Peter Arcidiacono:And so, if you can account, in the case we just described, if it was differences in test scores alone, once you account for test scores, then you could see how they were treated differently. Conditional on those test scores.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And typically, the way that works, is that when you add controls, the coefficient on the discriminated group typically goes down, because there was, because of history discrimination, that there was going to be differences in those things. That was why you had the program in the first place.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:But what's interesting in the case of Asian Americans, is it tends to go in the opposite direction. Right? So they're stronger on a lot of the observables.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:You add controls, it looks like the coefficients becomes more negative. For African Americans-Scott Cunningham:The coefficient, as in, the, so if I did a regression of admit onto an Asian dummy, nothing else, it'll be positive?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, it depends. So it would be positive if you had nothing else, and you excluded legacies-Scott Cunningham:Legacies.Peter Arcidiacono:... and athletes.Scott Cunningham:Okay. So I dropped the legacy and the athletes. I regress admit onto an Asian dummy. Asians are more likely to... So when does the, so what-Peter Arcidiacono:When it's slightly positive and insignificant.Scott Cunningham:... Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:As soon as you add anything related to academic background-Scott Cunningham:So then, I put in high school GPA and zip code, and I start trying to get at these measures of underlying academic performance, observable. And that's when it flips?Peter Arcidiacono:Oh yeah. Yeah. This is something I just did not appreciate before the Harvard case, is how incredibly well Asian Americans are doing academically.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:If you did admissions based solely on academics, over half would be Asian American. That is a stunning number. All groups would go down, and Asian Americans would be the only group that went up.Scott Cunningham:Okay. Say that again. I didn't quite follow. So what will astound me? What would it?Peter Arcidiacono:So Asian Americans, they're in the low twenties, in terms of their share of admits, or something like that.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:When you look at typical applicants.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:If you had admissions based solely on academics-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... with some combination of test scores and grades-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... they would be over half of Harvard's.Scott Cunningham:I see. Got it. They're just, it's just such an incredibly selective group. Selective, in terms of the measures of probable performance and success, and all these things. They are, as a group, high... What's the right word? How do you, this is one of these things, we're using the languages, is really careful. I was going to say, I know economists, we have models that say high type, low type. And obviously, it's like, what's the right way to start talking about these young people? These are young people at the beginning of their, everybody comes at a difference. So what's the right, what's the loving, charitable, honest way of talking about people with these underlying differences?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think that, what happened to them before college, was such, that on average, you see tremendous differences-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... in the skills that have been accumulated-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... prior to college.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. So there appears to be, one way you could describe it, is to say, there appears to be differences in human capital.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. But I think human capital, I guess-Scott Cunningham:Unobservable human capital appears to be different, but it's like showing up on these observable dimensions.Peter Arcidiacono:... That's right.Scott Cunningham:Got it.Peter Arcidiacono:And for me, that doesn't, in any way, point the finger, and say there's something wrong-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... with the groups that aren't doing well on that.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. No.Peter Arcidiacono:And in fact, there's some people who argue, look, the differences in test scores, the reason African American score worse on the tests, is because of stereotype threat.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And that idea is that everybody expects them to do poorly. And so, they do poorly.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:To me, that's giving the K through 12 education system a pass. There are real differences-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... in the K through 12 education experience-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... for African Americans.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:That's what we need to fix.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:We can't shy away from the real issue. And that's actually one of my big concerns with places like the UC system, saying, "We don't want standardized tests anymore." We're just going to ignore that there's a serious deficiency.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:Not that the people are deficient, that the educational system was deficient-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... for these students.Scott Cunningham:It's interesting. It's like, one of the papers I teach a lot, is, I know you're familiar with, is Mark Hoekstra's review of economics and statistics article, on the returns to attending the state flagship school. I've always thought-Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:... that this really interesting study, it feels relevant to what you're working on with Harvard and UNC, because it's about, I feel like when I was in graduate school, I came away from my labor courses, just realizing attending college is crucial. College is an anti-poverty program, as far as I can tell. You could see it in my work on crime, with the, you and I actually have some similar backgrounds. We're both interested in sex ratios and marriage markets.Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:But you could see the incarceration rate of African American men just plummeting, with college attainment, levels of college enrollment. But so, it's like, I graduated thinking, "Oh, well, the returns to college are important." But then, it's like, Mark's paper highlighted that there was this heterogeneity, even there. Even in these, in terms of the flagship school and Harvard.Peter Arcidiacono:Right.Scott Cunningham:And the reason why this stuff is important, I feel like it gets into these complicated things with regards to how we've decided to organize America, because the United States, we purchase goods and services using, goods and services go into the utility function. In many ways, that's the, trying to get utility functions that are virtuous and correlated with a life that's worth living, is the big goal. But we buy those goods and services at market prices, using labor income. And so, then, it always wraps back into this issue about something like Harvard or Chapel Hill, which is, some of these schools have imbalanced returns that affect labor income and quality of life, or might arguably, subjective wellbeing, as it's measured by utility. And I guess I'm just sitting here thinking to myself, if you have a group of people who are just for historical, it's not even historical accident, because they were historically discriminated against in the United States.Scott Cunningham:But at this point, it's a stock. African Americans have come to the table with this different kind of human capital, that's going to end up shaping all of their labor income. It's going to have massive impacts on labor income, where they go to college. It's like, I don't see how you can separate out the fact that there, we've got to decide, collectively, what exactly is the goal for these different groups of people that live here in the United States, and that one of the existing mechanisms for income, is college. And it all wraps back into this whole issue, about what exactly should the composition of the student body be, given these ridiculously imbalanced returns to each of these individual schools?Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. But I think that some of those things could be balanced more, if we were doing the things that were actually successful in changing the human capital-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... upfront. And so, one of the most, it was really disappointing, in my mind, when, after Floyd, I think KIPP Charter schools decided that their motto was no longer appropriate. Be nice, work hard. And I say that, mainly because no excuse charter schools, which no excuse, that's something that you can't really say quite the same way now.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:These schools were incredibly successful at closing the achievement gap.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:They were actually very successful.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:We could be doing that. That's where the resources ought to go.Scott Cunningham:Right, right.Peter Arcidiacono:Instead, what you see in California now, is they're getting rid of advanced classes. There's two ways to deal with an achievement gap, right? You can bring the people who aren't doing as well, up.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:Or you could bring the people who are doing well, down. The getting rid of the advanced classes, is not bringing, in my mind, those students up.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And if anything, it's providing huge advantages to people of means, because you cripple the public education system, take the path out for them to develop that human capital.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And then, the people with resources send their kids to private schools, so that stuff isn't going to go on.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And that's where I think a lot of the discussion, we can talk about affirmative action at Harvard. At the end of the day, that's really about appearances. The people are going to Harvard are all, most of them are coming from an incredibly rich backgrounds.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:Regardless of what race. There are differences across the races. But that's where the action is.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And that's what we typically focus on in education. But where we really need to be doing more, is for the lower income kids.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And COVIDs is going, we're starting to see that that's going to be a train wreck. Our education for this kids who went to-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... public schools.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's certain elasticities, that I think COVID highlights, which is that there's a, there are groups of students who, probably, their ability to substitute to the best case scenario in a very difficult situation, was really, they had a very high, they were able to do it. It may not have been, it wasn't a perfect substitute. They were able to continue to do it. And I think for some groups of students, it was a train wreck.Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:Just their ability to make those substitutions to whatever was required, could be anything ranging from the access to physical resources, like computing, computers, and wifi that's stable, and all these things, to, just simply, the way your brain works. Just being able to be present. I definitely think that COVID cut a mark through the students, that, it did in our family, completely cut a mark through students in weird jagged way, for sure.Peter Arcidiacono:But within your family, you're able to substitute in ways that other families cannot.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And that's the catch. And I think that, I don't work a lot in the K through 12 space, so this is a non-expert opinion on that. But if my read on the studies, is if you find positive effects of, say, charter schools, Catholic schools, smaller class size, if you're going to find positive effects for anyone, it's going to be inner city African Americans. And I think that the reason that you see that, is the way family substitutes, that they're not, their families are not in as good of a position to substitute-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... the way my family is. My kid has a bad teacher, we're going to do the bad effects.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:So you're going to think, "Oh, the teacher's fine." But no, we even did the effects of that teacher, in ways that other families cannot.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right. So what do you think is the smoking gun evidence, that that Harvard University has to... What's the smoking gun fact, that's evidence for, that's the most damning evidence for racial discrimination in admissions, that-Peter Arcidiacono:So racial discrimination against Asian Americans, I think that there's a, there's so many damning facts. Well, I'll start with the first one, which is Harvard's own internal offices. They have their own internal research teams. They estimated models of admissions, and consistently found a penalty against Asian Americans.Scott Cunningham:... Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:You could look at that. You'll hear people say, "Well, those are simplistic models." The fit of those models was incredibly high.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:I think. So they were explaining-Scott Cunningham:I think people underestimate the shoe leather sophistication that goes on in these admissions office, with developing their own internal models.Peter Arcidiacono:... Well, and what was striking, is Harvard's defense of this was, "Well, we really didn't understand the model."Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:Well, what was interesting, is that those models also had whether or not you were low income, in it.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And they were confident that those models, the same model, showed that they were giving a bump to low income students.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:It's like, you're going to interpret the coefficient one way when it's the result you like, and another way, when it's the result you don't like.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. So their own models showed, so what was the penalty? What was it? It was a dummy, a coefficient on a binary indicator for Asian American, or Asian?Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. That's right.Scott Cunningham:How big was it?Peter Arcidiacono:And then, also, it even had stuff on the personal rating. You can see, there was charts from their office that shows, what do you know, Asian Americans on all of Harvard's ratings, are scoring either much better than whites-Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:... or the same as whites, even on the alumni personal rating. So Harvard has these alumni interview, the students, and even on that, Asian Americans are doing similarly to whites.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And then, you see their own personal rating, based, not on meeting with the applicants. They do much, much worse.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, so what does Harvard have to prove?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think typically, in something like discrimination cases, well, what they have to prove, probably depends on the judge, I suppose-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... is the catch. What they were able to say at trial, were things like, "Well, the teachers must be giving them poor ratings. We don't think that Asian Americans are deficient on personal qualities, but maybe the teachers are scoring them poorly." How that is an excuse. I don't-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. I don't see what they're trying to... This is, I guess, where it's frustrating, because I'm struggling to know exactly what the objective function for Harvard is, in their own stated goals. What is their objective function? To create a particular kind of cohort? What is the cohort?Peter Arcidiacono:... Well, I think you'd get a lot of gobbledygook when it comes to that-Scott Cunningham:That's what I was wondering. Yeah. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:... Yeah. So, but I think it is also interesting to think about the counterfactual of, if this case was not associated with affirmative action at all-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... would it have played out the same way? And to me, I think the answer is no. Honestly, I don't think Card even takes the case.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:I think it would've been a much better... Your worse look for Harvard than it was. I think that it was a bad look for Harvard as it was, but because of who brought the case, and because of its ties to affirmative action, that gets back to that waffle analogy, right? If you look at it in the context of the waffle, there's just simply no argument in my mind, for the way they're treating Asian Americans.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:It's a clear cut discrimination case.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And if you just put it in a different context, it would just be completely unacceptable. Imagine Trump Towers having a discrimination suit brought against them by black applicants. And the defense being, "Look, it's not that we're discriminating against black applicants. They just happen to score poorly in our likability rating."Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:That would be outrageous.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:There would be protests. This is because it's tied to that third rail of affirmative action.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:But to me, the judge could have ruled, "Look, you can have affirmative action, but you got to stop discriminating against Asian Americans relative to whites.Scott Cunningham:So then, if you could fill up half of Har... So is this what the thing is? Harvard, as a university, collectively, however this ends up being decided, collectively, they have a preference over their student composition.Peter Arcidiacono:Right.Scott Cunningham:And that preference is discriminatory.Peter Arcidiacono:Their preference, I think, lines up with Kendi's in some sense. They would like to have their class look like the population.Scott Cunningham:They would like to have it look like, that they would like 13% African American, whatever percent, what is it, Asian American is what, five, is single digit?Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. And they would like to have a balanced portfolio of Americans.Peter Arcidiacono:And, but even that, I think, is giving Harvard too much credit, in the sense that, what we choose to balance on, we choose to balance on skin color.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:You're not balancing on income.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:You're not balancing on parental education.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:A whole bunch of other things you could've balanced on. Why-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. There's like an infinite number of character. Every person is a bundle of, just almost an infinite number of characteristics. And it's not practically... Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... If you really want a representative class, then you do a lottery among high school graduates.Scott Cunningham:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.Peter Arcidiacono:That would be the only way.Scott Cunningham:That would be the only way, the only way it would be to have a randomized student body. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:Do you feel like ask this about, was by somebody from a class at Duke, about how would you make the admissions process more equitable?Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh.Peter Arcidiacono:And I'm like, it's a selective admissions process. I don't even know what that-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... means. Even a process where you did the lottery, why is that equitable, because you've got the winners and the losers? The lottery. We're not equalizing outcomes for everybody. We're equalizing X anti.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. It's like, this is all this comp, this is this deep collective choice, social preferences questions about... And it's weird. I guess we're talking about this at Harvard, because we believe that Harvard University will literally change a kid's life, more than going to University of Tennessee, Knoxville, or something like that. Right? That's why we're having this conversation.Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah. I think that that's the perception, that it will literally change their kids' lives.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:I'm not totally convinced that of there being massive gains-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... relative to the counterfactual for-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... at that level.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:I think, when you're at the margin of going to college or not-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... that's the big margin.Scott Cunningham:That's the big margin. Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:College quality effects, I think get undone a little bit by college major effects.Scott Cunningham:Right, right, right.Peter A

I first met Peter Arcidiacano, professor of economics at Duke University, while I was a PhD student at the University of Georgia and I have followed his work since from a distance. I originally followed Peters work because he'd written several articles about sex from a two-sided matching perspective. I was struck by the fact that we both saw thinking about sexual relationships in terms of a matching problem. Two sided matching perspectives focus on the assignment mechanisms that bring people together, and when it comes to sexual relationships, the relative supply of possible partners and competition for those partners will in equilibrium result in pairings, some of which may become the most life sustaining and defining partnerships of those peoples lives. Peter's work was gratifying to read, and I have often looked up to him for his successful merging of theory and econometrics to study topics I cared about. The economic way of thinking is not about topics, nor is it is not about data, even though economists tend to have particular topics they study intensely and use data usually to do so. The economic way of thinking does though typically involve careful study of allocation mechanisms, such as prices and markets, that bring the productive capacity of communities into existence. These things are important as they animate humans to work together, produce output that manages the production itself, and increasingly towards the end of history, left surplus for humans to enjoy. Who ends up in what activities doing what types of specialized work ultimately shapes that which is made, how much and how it is distributed. The allocations end up not only shaping our lives, but our children's lives. Starting conditions can cast a long shadow lasting centuries even causing certain groups to creep ahead as more and more of the surplus mounts and accrues to them, while others watch as a shrinking part of the growing pie flows to them.In the United States, in the 21st century, one of the key institutions in all of this assignment of love and commerce has been the university. And within the university system, there are gradations of institutional pedigree and at the top of the pack sits elite institutions whose students seem practically destined to shape and receive the surplus. Given the path dependence in wealth, and how it has interacted with race, it is therefore no wonder that policymakers and economists have for decades sought to refine the rules by which schools can select high school applicants for admission. In many ways, our country's fight over the use of race in selecting students into college is the old debates about capitalism and the self adjusting market system writ large. So it's in this broader context about work, schools, matching and allocation mechanisms that I think of Peter and his scholarship. When I review the range of topics on Peters vita, I see the signature marks of the modern 21st century labor economist. Someone interested in markets and how they work to connect people into productive cooperation. Someone interested in institutions, someone concerned about inequality and discrimination, someone versed both in economic theory and econometrics, someone at home with a bewildering array of numbers in a spreadsheet. To me, it is natural that Peter has pivoted so fluidly between topics like sex, work, discrimination and higher education because in my mind these are all interconnected topics concerning the assignment mechanisms we use in America to organize society and maintain our collective standard of living.I invited Peter on the Mixtape with Scott as part of an ongoing series I call “economists and public policy”. The series focuses on how economics and economists think about and attempt to shape public policy. It includes people with a variety of perspectives, and even some who are critics of economics itself. Previous guests on the podcast in the “economists and public policy” series have been Sandy Darity, Elizabeth Popp Berman, Anna Stansbury, Mark Anderson, Alan Manning, Larry Katz, Jeremy West and Jonathan Meer. Peter has not only produced academic articles in some of economics' most impactful outlets — he has recently served as expert witness in two major discrimination cases, one of which put him on the opposite side of the stand as David Card, winner of 2021 Nobel Prize in economics. You can read about the cases here. They involve the broader topic of race and affirmative action at universities. The cases more specifically involve whether Harvard and UNC Chapel Hill admissions criteria show signs of discrimination. One of the things about Peter's involvement as expert witness that I want to highlight, though, is that his expert testimony was, at its core, an example of the role that econometrics can play in the shaping of public policy. It is more and more the case that economics' role in the shaping of public policy in the 21st century will involve not merely economic theory, but also statistical analysis of complex datasets too, and I think it is worth pausing and noting that the economist shapes public policy oftentimes these days as much through interpreting data as her counterpart did using pure economic theory. I hope you find this discussion with Peter thought provoking and informative about both his work on these cases, but also about the role of economics and econometrics in forming public policy. But I also hope that the interview will give you a deeper insight into Peter and who he is. Scott's Substack as well as The Mixtape with Scott are supported by user subscriptions. Please share this episode to people within and outside economics that you think might be interested. I love doing these interviews and using the substack to do deeper dives into econometrics and the lives of economists and if you find this work valuable, please consider subscribing and supporting it. Scott's Substack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.TranscriptScott Cunningham:In this week's episode of Mixtape: the Podcast, I had the pleasure of talking with a professor at Duke University, named Peter Arcidiacono. I can never pronounce it correctly, no matter how many times I try. I first met Peter in graduate school. He was, probably then, an assistant professor at Duke, where he has spent his entire career. I was a PhD student at the University of Georgia. And he had a research paper on a topic that I was also working on, involving marriage markets. He's been an incredibly prolific producer in the area of labor economics and education, as well as affirmative action. And he uses tools in econometrics, that I largely never invested in, structural econometrics and discrete choice modeling. So when I read his work, I usually do it, both, because I'm interested in the paper and the paper topic, but also because I'm hoping that this will be a chance for me to open my mind a little bit more, and pick up on some of that econometric modeling, that I lack.Peter is also an expert witness in a high profile case, right now, involving affirmative action and racial discrimination at Harvard University, and the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, both of which have been combined into a single case. As I understand it, it's going for the Supreme court soon. In this interview, we walk through a lot of big and small issues around society's preferences around poverty, inequality, as well as the role that higher education is playing in both. My name is Scott Cunningham, and this is Mixtape: the Podcast.Scott Cunningham:Okay. This is great. I don't know if you remember. So this is an interview with professor of economics at Duke University, Peter Arcidiacono. And we're going to be talking about a range of topics. But just to give the reader and the listener a little bit of background, Peter, could you tell me a little bit about yourself, and what your involvement is with a current case, going before the Supreme court, involving University of North Carolina and Harvard University?Peter Arcidiacono:Certainly. And thanks for having me on. I've been at Duke now, for over 20 years. This was my first job out of grad school, and stayed here ever since. And a lot of my work has been on higher education, both with regard to choice of college major, as well as affirmative action.And one of the really dissatisfying things about working on affirmative action, is that universities hide their data. So you can't really get a good sense of how the programs are working, because you typically don't have the data. And I think that that really matters, because to me, so much of the discussion about affirmative action, is in the binary. Either we have it, or we don't have it. But what it means to have it, is something, as economists, we would think about, that's something we would be optimizing over. And so, there's really a large space between race as a tiebreaker in admissions, and what somebody like Abraham Kennedy would advocate for, which would be more of a quota system.And so, thinking about where you stand on that, to me, I had this opportunity to work on these two cases, two lawsuits. One brought against Harvard, and one against UNC, on the role of race in these admissions processes. And for me, it was an opportunity to look behind the veil, and see how these programs actually operated.My intent was always to, a feeling as though, if I'm going to be an expert on affirmative action, I should know how these processes actually work. So my intent was always to use this for the purposes of research, as well. And we've written a number of papers out of the Harvard case. Four have been accepted now, and we just released a fifth one on racial preferences of both schools. And we'll see what happens with that. So those lawsuits, I testified in trial, at both those cases. My counterpart in the Harvard case was David Card, who recently won the Nobel Prize. I was wondering how I would respond to that. And actually, my response, I got to go up against a Nobel Prize winner.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:So those experiences were somewhat traumatizing. But both experts, David Card and Kevin Hoxby, are pillars in the field, and people who have been very helpful to me, and who I have a great deal of respect for.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:So these cases have now, in both those cases, the side I was on lost at the first round. In the Harvard case, they also lost at the appellate round.Peter Arcidiacono:In UNC, it didn't actually go through the appellate round, because-Scott Cunningham:Oh, so-Peter Arcidiacono:... supreme court merged the cases.Scott Cunningham:... Both the Harvard University case and the Chapel Hill case, were already decided, but not at the Supreme Court level.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:So the decision was appealed. It's now before the Supreme Court.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:I think the Supreme Court scheduled here, arguments in October, and then, we'll see when they release a decision.Scott Cunningham:Okay. So, and these are both cases involving affirmative action and racial discrimination amongst particular groups of people? Is that groups of students, is that right?Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. Though, in the UNC case, there's actually no claim of Asian American discrimination. So that actually, you only see that at Harvard. You don't see that at UNC. That doesn't mean, I think that Asian discrimination is unique to Harvard.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:I think it has to do with the fact of there not being that many Asian Americans in North Carolina.Scott Cunningham:North Carolina, right.Peter Arcidiacono:It's always been a bigger issue at the very top schools.Scott Cunningham:And you were called in, as an expert witness, for the plaintiff in both of those cases.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:Right. So David Card is the expert witness for Harvard, representing Harvard, against an accusation of, well, what exactly is the accusation against both of these institutions, and who brought these accusations against them?Peter Arcidiacono:So the group is called Students for Fair Admissions. And they basically got groups of students to, as their plaintiffs. Though, it's not about those particular students, in terms of remedies. And in Harvard, there's three claims. One, whether or not they're discriminating against Asian American applicants, relative to white applicants.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:Two, whether the size of the preferences given for underrepresented groups, is constitutional.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And three, whether there were race-neutral alternatives that they could have used. So the Supreme Court has said, "If there is a race-neutral alternative, you should use that."Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:I'm not really involved at the race-neutral part. We had a different expert for that aspect.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:Though, in both cases, Card and Hoxby actually did the race-neutral part, as well.Scott Cunningham:What exactly does the constitution say a admissions committee can use, when drawing up a student cohort?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, so I'm not sure what the constitution has to say on it, but I can say what the history of this of the court challenges have been.Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:So I think, it's Title VI of Civil Rights Act said, "You're not supposed to use race-"Scott Cunningham:Race.Peter Arcidiacono:"... in these types of things." And there are other categories too.Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:But race is the focus of this one. Now, the reason they had that, was because of the history of ill treatment of African Americans.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And this is obviously going in the other direction-Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:... with regard to African Americans receiving preferences in the admissions process.Scott Cunningham:Mm. Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So, but then, the history was that the original decision, the Bakke case, said, "Look, you can't use race in admissions, because of reparations. You can only use it because of the benefits of diversity." So the state can have an interest in diversity. And that was a compromised position to get that swing justice, to sign onto it.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:Since then, there have been a number of cases. I think the ones that are most relevant right now, are the ones that came out of the Michigan cases.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And there was one at the undergraduate level, which they found that you could not use race as part of an explicit point system.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So you can get points for having a good SAT score, points for being a particular race, you add them up together, then you could rank the-Scott Cunningham:I see.Peter Arcidiacono:... applicant.Scott Cunningham:So there were schools that were doing a point system based on individual characteristics, like race. And that was, at that moment, it was unclear whether that would be legal. It was, I guess, or was it something that schools were, potentially, in a legal, bad situation, when they were using it? Or was it just not known?Peter Arcidiacono:I don't think it was clear. And that's where the court ruled. You cannot use it in that way.Scott Cunningham:Got it. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:At the same time, there was a case against Harvard's Law School. And on that one, they said that you could use race, holistically. As an economist, I can express anything as a formula. And then, the question is, whether you see all parts of the formula or not.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:So it gets a little tricky. And I think that, from my perspective, I would've rather had the ruling go in the exact opposite way.[inaudible 00:11:59] on if we're going to find in favor of one or the other.I would prefer a point system to a holistic one, because then, everything's clear.Scott Cunningham:Clear. Yeah. It seemed really precise-Peter Arcidiacono:[inaudible 00:12:09], to hide their data.Scott Cunningham:... Yeah. It seems like lots of times with the law, the imprecision of this language, as though it's a solution to the problem, is really challenging for designing policy.Peter Arcidiacono:I totally agree. Yeah.Scott Cunningham:So, okay. I want to set up the reader a little bit, oh, the listener, to know who you are before we dive into this, because I'm loving this thread, but I want people to know who you are. So before we get more into the case, can you tell me where you grew up, and why you got into economics? Your first, what was the touchstone that brought you into this field?Peter Arcidiacono:So I grew up in the Pacific Northwest. My first set of years were actually in Ellensburg, Washington, which is a town of 13,000. My dad was a math education professor.Scott Cunningham:Oh, okay. What university was he a professor at?Peter Arcidiacono:Central Washington University.Scott Cunningham:Okay. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:And then-Scott Cunningham:Hey, but what'd you say it was? What was it again?Peter Arcidiacono:... It was math education.Scott Cunningham:Math education.Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah. So he was teaching teachers how to teach math.Scott Cunningham:Oh. So you've always been, it's in the family to be interested in education?Peter Arcidiacono:Yes. And-Scott Cunningham:And even this math education part. That's another way of describing an economist that studies education.Peter Arcidiacono:... Right.Scott Cunningham:Math education.Peter Arcidiacono:Well, my parents actually met in linear algebra class, so.Scott Cunningham:Oh, that's romantic.Peter Arcidiacono:And I've got two brothers, and they were both math majors.Scott Cunningham:Oh, wow. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:I was the only non-math major.Scott Cunningham:Okay. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:But I came into college, and started out in chemistry. I think, Econ PhD programs are filled with former, hard science majors.Scott Cunningham:No joke. Yeah, yeah. They hit organic chemistry, and then, they changed their major.Peter Arcidiacono:Right. And I just couldn't stand the lab. It was too social. And one of my good friends, a guy who ended up being the best man at my wedding, was a couple years ahead of me, told me I should take an economics class.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And it was amazing. I think that just the way of thinking, just worked naturally for me.Scott Cunningham:Well, so when you say way of thinking, the way of thinking that was, can you tell me what your 19 year old self would've been jarred by? What are the specific things, that economic way of thinking, that he was noticing?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, it just fit with a lot of how I operated. So I view economics as a great model of fallen man.Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh.Peter Arcidiacono:Fundamentally, I was the guy who always looked for the loopholes. So responding really well to incentives. I had a keen eye for how I could game the system.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And so, I think a lot about what economics is doing, is the dismal science, right? The reigns on the parade of well-intentioned policies.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:How are people going to get around the policies? Well, that's where I lived, was figuring out how I could game the system.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right. So you were, this idea of that rational choice paradigm, is that what you mean?Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:And that-Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:... that people would just simply, if they have goals, those goals don't just go away with a policy. They might just continue to try to achieve those goals at lowest cost, even then.Peter Arcidiacono:Exactly.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And the other studying thing, which I think, really affected why I ended up doing the research that I did, was, for me, the chemistry classes were just way harder-Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh.Peter Arcidiacono:... than economics classes.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And I'm not trying to say that any classes are easy.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:But there is definitely large differences-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... in every university, and what the expectations are-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... across fields.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And that distorts people's behavior.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So I view it, that most colleges are subsidizing students, to go into low paying fields. And how do they subsidize them to do that? They offer higher grades-Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:... and lower workloads, smaller class sizes. All those things work, so that lots of people come in wanting to major in well-paying fields, and switch in, and switch out.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And they do so because of the incentives the universities provide.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. So you got interested in economics, and that's like, you're describing some sort of price theory, microeconomics. But you've also have made a career out of being such a strong econometrician in this area of structural econometrics and discrete choice modeling. How did you get interested in those topics? What was your first reaction to econometrics?Peter Arcidiacono:I had a very strange econometrics background. So my first year econometrics, was taught by Chuck Manski.Scott Cunningham:Oh.Peter Arcidiacono:The whole year. And so, it was lots of bounds.Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh.Peter Arcidiacono:And then, my second year, it was all John Rust.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So a complete swing, right? So you go from the non-parametrics, what can you identify under the smallest number of assumptions?Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:To what can you identify, if you want an answer something really big.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:You got to make a lot of assumptions to make that.Scott Cunningham:Oh, boy. That's an interesting journey, right there.Peter Arcidiacono:So I actually never had the mostly harmless econometric-Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... at all.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And the econometrics has always been-Scott Cunningham:This was Wisconsin?Peter Arcidiacono:... That's right.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:What year was this?Peter Arcidiacono:In the econometrics, the advances were always more, because I needed to do something to estimate my models.Scott Cunningham:Right. This was mid nineties? This would've been the mid nineties, or late nineties?Peter Arcidiacono:I'd like to say late nineties. Yeah-Scott Cunningham:Late nineties? Okay. Yeah-Peter Arcidiacono:... [inaudible 00:19:10].Scott Cunningham:... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, keep going. Sorry.Peter Arcidiacono:So I was thinking about my own experience, in terms of choosing a college major, and thinking about, Well, people are learning over time. They start out those STEM classes, and figured out, wow, this is a little bit harder than I expected.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And then, moved through.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:So I had a mind, I actually had the idea for my job market paper, my first year. And had this idea of a forward looking model, of how people choose their college major.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And so, then, I go into John Rust's office, because he's my second year econometrics professor, and was describing this problem to him, that people are making decisions today, giving expectations about the future.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And he says, "Yeah, I think I can help you with that." And I was like, "No, you don't understand. This is a really hard problem." And of course, John Rust had written the [inaudible 00:20:13] paper about how to estimate these types of models-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... And he was fantastic with me. [inaudible 00:20:20]. He didn't say idiot. You could at least look at what I do, before you come to my office. He was fantastic with me.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And actually, the funny story about that too, is he's actually the only reason I'm an economics professor, because-Scott Cunningham:Oh, yeah?Peter Arcidiacono:... I only got into one grad school. Got rejected from much worse places in Wisconsin. It was the only place that accepted me.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And the joke was that that was the year John rusted everybody in. So there were 53 of us to [inaudible 00:20:57].Scott Cunningham:That's awesome.Peter Arcidiacono:17 got PhDs.Scott Cunningham:Wow.Peter Arcidiacono:And if you look at another guy, one of my friends, I just actually found out we were actually at a conference in honor of John Rust, this past weekend.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And it turns out, that was the only place that admitted him, as well. And he's been incredibly successful too.Scott Cunningham:The John Rust fixed effect is filled with stories.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:That's really cool. That's really cool. I'm curious, thinking about what your, I want get to the Harvard and the Chapel Hill. But before we move on, you could imagine, had you gone to Princeton, or MIT, and worked with, or Berkeley, and worked with these, the treatment effects guys, like Imbens, and Angrist, and Card, and Kruger, and O'Reilly, and all these people. It's not just that your knowledge of econometrics would've been slightly different. Even the kinds of questions, that you would be asking, might be different. So I'm curious, what do you think your training and structural, under Manski and Rust, how has that shaped, not just the way you do your work, but even the types of questions that you ask, that you imagine, you might not have asked? For instance, just even thinking, modeling choice-Peter Arcidiacono:[Inaudible 00:22:40].Scott Cunningham:I'm sorry. I don't know. Did I lose you?Peter Arcidiacono:You froze on me.Scott Cunningham:Ah, I froze? Okay-Peter Arcidiacono:You're still frozen.Scott Cunningham:... I'm still frozen? Okay. There. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:Now, you're back. So you're asking about what types of questions.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. What kinds of questions do you think you ended up being really interested in, and working on? Not just the model that you wrote down, but even the actual topics. Because I'm curious, I'm wondering if listeners could really frame their understanding of this structural, versus this causal inference, tradition. Not just in terms of the technical pieces, but like this is practically how, the work a person ends up, that you think you ended up doing, versus if you had got Angrist as an advisor.Peter Arcidiacono:Oh, I think it has shaped me quite a bit. I am certain that if I'd gone to a place like Chicago, I would've probably ended up working with Steve Levitt. I am naturally attracted to some of those topics, that are more of a freakaconomics-type nature. And if you look at it, we actually had competing papers-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... on discrimination in the Weakest Link game show.Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And I've written a couple of sports papers. So I have that in me, to think about those types of things. If I'm-Scott Cunningham:Topics, right? Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... Yeah.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:I think that the Manski Rust combination did have a big effect on me, and, in the types of questions that I asked. Which is what structural brings to the table, is thinking about mechanisms.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So when you think about the effect of affirmative action on outcomes, understanding why the effect is what it is, matters.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:How it affects application behaviors. How is affects what majors issues. What would be those counterfactuals? And for that, I think you need some of these structural approaches.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:Now, one of the things about those structural approaches, to say, typically involve making some pretty big assumptions.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And I think that that's where the Manski influences had on me, because I also have papers that use subjective expectations data. And I think that that is actually an incredibly promising area of work.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:It's quite clear that people don't know as much as they should know, when they make important decisions. Certainly, higher education being a prime example of that.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:COVID really makes that clear, you know? How can it be that the people who are unvaccinated, are least likely to wear a mask? Clearly, they're operating under very different beliefs about-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... what's going to happen.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right. Right. Okay. So let's move into this Harvard Chapel Hill project. So setting it up, tell me, what is the first event that happens, that makes this a case against Harvard? Not counting alleged discrimination, but the actual historical event, that leads to a need for an expert witness.Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think the need for the expert witness came about, because Harvard had to release their data, in the context of the trial.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So in the context of the lawsuit, the claim was there were some smoking guns that suggested the possibility, for example, of Asian American discriminationScott Cunningham:That would not fit this holistic criteria, that you mentioned earlier?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, so, it's an interesting question, right? So you can't have with the holistic criteria, you can take race into account, but the question is whether you could take race into account, in a way that penalizes a group, relative to white applicants?Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:So it might be one thing to say, "We're going to give a bump for African Americans, relative to whites."Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:Maybe another thing to say, "We're going to give a bump for whites, relative to Asian Americans."Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Okay. So they've had a lawsuit brought against Harvard. Harvard's had a lawsuit filed against them. What year is-Peter Arcidiacono:[inaudible 00:27:32]. Sorry, say it again.Scott Cunningham:What year would that have been?Peter Arcidiacono:Oh, man. I think it was back in 2015, or something like that.Scott Cunningham:2015. Did anybody see that coming? Or was this odd, this is just inevitable?Peter Arcidiacono:I think that, they were advertising for plaintiffs, students who had been rejected. So certainly, there was an intent to file such a lawsuit, for sure. And then, they had to weigh what universities to file it against. And they chose Harvard, because of the patterns on what were going on with Asian Americans. And I think UNC had more to do with the, there was some evidence in the record, from past cases, that race-neutral alternatives would work there.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm. Okay. So you get involved. How do you get selected as the expert witness? And what's your job, exactly, in all this?Peter Arcidiacono:So I think I get selected, I've written a couple of survey articles on affirmative action. And I view it that there are lots of nuances. So the fact that I would actually say there are nuances, as opposed to it being always good-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... made it attractive for them, I think.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And back in 2011, there was actually a protest here, at Duke, over one of my studies.Scott Cunningham:Oh, really?Peter Arcidiacono:Yes. So that one, we were actually using Duke data, and confronting a tough fact, which is lots of black students at Duke came in, wanted to major in STEM and economics, but switched out. In exploring why they were switching out at such a higher rate, relative to white applicants.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:So for men, it was very extreme.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:8% of white men switched out of STEM and economics-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... to a non-STEM, non-economics major. Over 50% of black males switched out. And you look at that, you think, that's a problem.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And once you account for the differences in academic background, prior to Duke, all those racial gaps go away. And I think what, the path to the protest to serve in the long run. So I won't get into all details of that, but I think that they didn't believe the fact at first.Scott Cunningham:And what was the fact exactly, that the racial discrimination, the racial bias, the racial differences vanished, once you conditioned on what, exactly?Peter Arcidiacono:I conditioned on academic background.Scott Cunningham:Oh, I see. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:Course and such like that. But I think even the original effect, they were surprised by, which was that the switch out rates were so different.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And at that time-Scott Cunningham:But why is that a protest against you? What does that have to do with you, if you're just documenting facts?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think that the negative press headline said, potentially racist study says black students are taking the easy way out. And so-Scott Cunningham:Potentially racist study.Peter Arcidiacono:Potentially racist study. Yes.Scott Cunningham:This study was racist.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. And I think that the issue, it actually makes a lot more sense now, than it did to me at the time. And economists thought this was crazy at the time. It's actually interesting, because I got attacked from people all over the country. It didn't make a major news flash, but within certain circles, it did. And actually, one of the people who wrote about it at the time, was Abraham Kendi. This was before he changed his name. He's not the, he wasn't famous in the same way that he is now. But the fact that I wasn't pointing the finger at the departments, I was pointing the finger, I think it was interpreted as victim blaming. It's their fault that they're switching out because they're not prepared. That's never how I would want to frame it. I would want, to me, this is, the issue is that you're not prepared-Scott Cunningham:You think you framed it?Peter Arcidiacono:No, I don't think so. But the way economists talk about things is different.Scott Cunningham:I know. I think that something, I think we're, a generous view is that we can't, we don't know what we sound like or something. I get into this a lot with my work on sex work, and I've, I work really hard to try to be very factual. And it, the use of words can be so triggering to a group of people. And I can never, I still can't quite articulate what exactly it is, in hindsight, that I, what word I used that was so wrong. But you feel like you would write that paper differently now?Peter Arcidiacono:Knowing that non economists would read it? Yes.Scott Cunningham:What would you do differently?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think, you have to be much more, when I say, it counts for the differences in switching behavior.Scott Cunningham:Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:The way other people hear that, is I'm able to explain why every single person switches their major, and has nothing to do with other factors. That's the reductionist claim against economists, as opposed to, on average, this is occurring.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:So I did a radio interview at the time, and one of the people on the show was a blogger from Racialicious, who was a regular on the show. And-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... I didn't really know anything about the show, going in.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And she spent, so she got to go first, and she talked about how problematic my study was. And the way she described it, were ways that I did not think was consistent.Scott Cunningham:With what the the study was.Peter Arcidiacono:Right. And so, my response to that, really, by grace-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... was to say, if I thought that was what the paper was saying, I'd be upset too. And then, was able to pivot into, look, we're actually on the same side on this. We want black students at Duke to succeed in the majors that they're interested in. And to that point, we need to identify the barriers that are affecting that, and what resources we can provide, to make it so that that would not be the case.Scott Cunningham:So what are you going to say to your old, let's say you could go back in time, 10 years to that young economist, writing this paper. Without telling him exactly what specifically to say, you can only say a general principle. As you think about writing this, I want you to think about writing it in a different way. What exactly should you be? I guess, what I'm getting at, is how would you pause, what is, what pedagogically should we be communicating to young economists, about language and audience, that we haven't been doing historically, so that we are not unnecessarily tripping people up and creating confusion?Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really tricky, because on a lot of things, it's just very hard to have a discussion where the emotions are not involved.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:So when you speak about things related to race, and you talk about things in a very matter of factual way-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... that can be heard as you don't care.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:You are not interested in fixing the problem at all. You're just explaining away why we don't need to do anything.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And that's how, there's actually this marriage book, I really like, which is, again, I'm going to say this, it's going to come across as stereotyping. This is obviously distributions overlap, but it's called Men Are Like Waffles, Women Are Like Spaghetti. And the ideas is that men compartmentalize everything. So we're talking about this specific issue, not seeing how it relates to the broader picture.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:The advice, the marriage advice I always give now, is don't try to solve your wife's problems. That's always a mistake.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And, but that's effectively, as economists, exactly what we do. We are working in the little waffle box.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:Focused on this particular problem.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And I don't know how to change that with regard to economics papers. I really try to be very nuanced in my language and such.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:Maybe in how you motivate the paper, recognizing the racial inequities and the historical discrimination.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:But there is a sense in which it will not be enough.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah. There's this, I can't, I just now drew a blank on the, I teach it all. I can see the slide in my deck, but there's a famous computer scientist. And he says, this principal about writing code, and he says, "Be conservative in what you do, and be liberal in what you accept from others." And it's this principle of code writing, which I guess is like, he's basically saying, "When you write code, it needs to be, the noise to signal ratio needs to be very, very low. You need to be very clear in what it's doing, in a very efficient choice to minimize this, these unnecessary errors." But when you're receiving the code, either from your earlier part of the code, or for some other foreign source, you have to change your viewpoint in that sense, because really, the goal, when you're on the receiving end of the code, it seems like your goal is to be this antenna.Scott Cunningham:And this antenna is trying to extract information from any meaningful information from the noise. And so, you have to have, as a listener, a certain amount of grace that tolerates that this other person may make mistakes, doesn't say it all right, goes really, really to great lengths to try to, you go to great lengths, to try to figure out exactly what the message is, and what it isn't. And it does seem like, successful communication is a, about a sender who is being clear, and a receiver that is being charitable in what they're going to allow the sender to say, unless the goal is conflict.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:If the goal is conflict, then obviously, you don't do that. What you do with conflict, is you find the most bad, then, it's just bad faith. It's just like, trap a person, win the debate. And sometimes, many of us don't realize who we're talking to. We don't know if we're talking to a good faith or a bad faith person. But there's limits, I think, to what an economist or anyone can do, if the person they're talking to really is not interested in connecting.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. And it's interesting, because I think when I either speak publicly, or even giving seminars to economics audiences, the first part is building trust.Scott Cunningham:Totally.Peter Arcidiacono:We have the same goals.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:We may have different views about how to get there. And I've got some information that may change your mind on this.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And the issue is whether they can hear the information I say, or if it's going to be ruled out because I'm a bad person.Scott Cunningham:Right. Well, let me ask you something. So these tests for, okay, so you correct me where my thinking is wrong. Testing for racial discrimination in admissions. I could imagine econometrics one, I get the data set from Harvard, and I run a regression of admit onto a race dummy.Peter Arcidiacono:Right.Scott Cunningham:And then, I interpret the statistical significance on the race dummy. And then, I add in more observables. In what sense is this, philosophically, what we are trying to do in the United States, legally, to detect for whatever it is that's violating the constitution. And in what sense is it a big fat failure, that's not what we're trying to do? Can you elaborate that as a multivariate regression-Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah. So I think, how to interpret that beginning coefficient, I don't think that coefficient has much of an interpretation, particularly in admissions, because of who applies. And that was, one of the papers that we published on this, is about Harvard's recruiting practices.Scott Cunningham:... Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And Harvard, they recruit a lot of people. And particularly, African Americans, who simply have no chance of admission. And so, you could make it. And that could be part of the reason, right, would be, we want to appear as though when you do just that one regression with that one variable-Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:... through affecting my applicant pool, I can always make it so that coefficient-Scott Cunningham:So what happening? So if I've got a university, just in real simple sense, let's say a university, if they're white, they span their, they basically task to the university, to whoever, and they say, "Get a pool of white applicants, use this rule. Get a pool of black applicants, use this rule." And it's just very, very different rules.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right.Scott Cunningham:Okay. If I then run a regression, how in the world am I going to detect racial preference in admission, when racial preference was used in the drawing up of the application in the first place?Peter Arcidiacono:So I think that's where, I think one of the principles that, it's not randomization for sure.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:But one of the key principles, is how do you think about selection on observables versus unobservables?Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Right, right.Peter Arcidiacono:And so, if you can account, in the case we just described, if it was differences in test scores alone, once you account for test scores, then you could see how they were treated differently. Conditional on those test scores.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And typically, the way that works, is that when you add controls, the coefficient on the discriminated group typically goes down, because there was, because of history discrimination, that there was going to be differences in those things. That was why you had the program in the first place.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:But what's interesting in the case of Asian Americans, is it tends to go in the opposite direction. Right? So they're stronger on a lot of the observables.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:You add controls, it looks like the coefficients becomes more negative. For African Americans-Scott Cunningham:The coefficient, as in, the, so if I did a regression of admit onto an Asian dummy, nothing else, it'll be positive?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, it depends. So it would be positive if you had nothing else, and you excluded legacies-Scott Cunningham:Legacies.Peter Arcidiacono:... and athletes.Scott Cunningham:Okay. So I dropped the legacy and the athletes. I regress admit onto an Asian dummy. Asians are more likely to... So when does the, so what-Peter Arcidiacono:When it's slightly positive and insignificant.Scott Cunningham:... Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:As soon as you add anything related to academic background-Scott Cunningham:So then, I put in high school GPA and zip code, and I start trying to get at these measures of underlying academic performance, observable. And that's when it flips?Peter Arcidiacono:Oh yeah. Yeah. This is something I just did not appreciate before the Harvard case, is how incredibly well Asian Americans are doing academically.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:If you did admissions based solely on academics, over half would be Asian American. That is a stunning number. All groups would go down, and Asian Americans would be the only group that went up.Scott Cunningham:Okay. Say that again. I didn't quite follow. So what will astound me? What would it?Peter Arcidiacono:So Asian Americans, they're in the low twenties, in terms of their share of admits, or something like that.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:When you look at typical applicants.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:If you had admissions based solely on academics-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... with some combination of test scores and grades-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... they would be over half of Harvard's.Scott Cunningham:I see. Got it. They're just, it's just such an incredibly selective group. Selective, in terms of the measures of probable performance and success, and all these things. They are, as a group, high... What's the right word? How do you, this is one of these things, we're using the languages, is really careful. I was going to say, I know economists, we have models that say high type, low type. And obviously, it's like, what's the right way to start talking about these young people? These are young people at the beginning of their, everybody comes at a difference. So what's the right, what's the loving, charitable, honest way of talking about people with these underlying differences?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think that, what happened to them before college, was such, that on average, you see tremendous differences-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... in the skills that have been accumulated-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... prior to college.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. So there appears to be, one way you could describe it, is to say, there appears to be differences in human capital.Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. But I think human capital, I guess-Scott Cunningham:Unobservable human capital appears to be different, but it's like showing up on these observable dimensions.Peter Arcidiacono:... That's right.Scott Cunningham:Got it.Peter Arcidiacono:And for me, that doesn't, in any way, point the finger, and say there's something wrong-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... with the groups that aren't doing well on that.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. No.Peter Arcidiacono:And in fact, there's some people who argue, look, the differences in test scores, the reason African American score worse on the tests, is because of stereotype threat.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And that idea is that everybody expects them to do poorly. And so, they do poorly.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:To me, that's giving the K through 12 education system a pass. There are real differences-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... in the K through 12 education experience-Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:... for African Americans.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:That's what we need to fix.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:We can't shy away from the real issue. And that's actually one of my big concerns with places like the UC system, saying, "We don't want standardized tests anymore." We're just going to ignore that there's a serious deficiency.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:Not that the people are deficient, that the educational system was deficient-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... for these students.Scott Cunningham:It's interesting. It's like, one of the papers I teach a lot, is, I know you're familiar with, is Mark Hoekstra's review of economics and statistics article, on the returns to attending the state flagship school. I've always thought-Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:... that this really interesting study, it feels relevant to what you're working on with Harvard and UNC, because it's about, I feel like when I was in graduate school, I came away from my labor courses, just realizing attending college is crucial. College is an anti-poverty program, as far as I can tell. You could see it in my work on crime, with the, you and I actually have some similar backgrounds. We're both interested in sex ratios and marriage markets.Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:But you could see the incarceration rate of African American men just plummeting, with college attainment, levels of college enrollment. But so, it's like, I graduated thinking, "Oh, well, the returns to college are important." But then, it's like, Mark's paper highlighted that there was this heterogeneity, even there. Even in these, in terms of the flagship school and Harvard.Peter Arcidiacono:Right.Scott Cunningham:And the reason why this stuff is important, I feel like it gets into these complicated things with regards to how we've decided to organize America, because the United States, we purchase goods and services using, goods and services go into the utility function. In many ways, that's the, trying to get utility functions that are virtuous and correlated with a life that's worth living, is the big goal. But we buy those goods and services at market prices, using labor income. And so, then, it always wraps back into this issue about something like Harvard or Chapel Hill, which is, some of these schools have imbalanced returns that affect labor income and quality of life, or might arguably, subjective wellbeing, as it's measured by utility. And I guess I'm just sitting here thinking to myself, if you have a group of people who are just for historical, it's not even historical accident, because they were historically discriminated against in the United States.Scott Cunningham:But at this point, it's a stock. African Americans have come to the table with this different kind of human capital, that's going to end up shaping all of their labor income. It's going to have massive impacts on labor income, where they go to college. It's like, I don't see how you can separate out the fact that there, we've got to decide, collectively, what exactly is the goal for these different groups of people that live here in the United States, and that one of the existing mechanisms for income, is college. And it all wraps back into this whole issue, about what exactly should the composition of the student body be, given these ridiculously imbalanced returns to each of these individual schools?Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. But I think that some of those things could be balanced more, if we were doing the things that were actually successful in changing the human capital-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... upfront. And so, one of the most, it was really disappointing, in my mind, when, after Floyd, I think KIPP Charter schools decided that their motto was no longer appropriate. Be nice, work hard. And I say that, mainly because no excuse charter schools, which no excuse, that's something that you can't really say quite the same way now.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:These schools were incredibly successful at closing the achievement gap.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:They were actually very successful.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:We could be doing that. That's where the resources ought to go.Scott Cunningham:Right, right.Peter Arcidiacono:Instead, what you see in California now, is they're getting rid of advanced classes. There's two ways to deal with an achievement gap, right? You can bring the people who aren't doing as well, up.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:Or you could bring the people who are doing well, down. The getting rid of the advanced classes, is not bringing, in my mind, those students up.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And if anything, it's providing huge advantages to people of means, because you cripple the public education system, take the path out for them to develop that human capital.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And then, the people with resources send their kids to private schools, so that stuff isn't going to go on.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And that's where I think a lot of the discussion, we can talk about affirmative action at Harvard. At the end of the day, that's really about appearances. The people are going to Harvard are all, most of them are coming from an incredibly rich backgrounds.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:Regardless of what race. There are differences across the races. But that's where the action is.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:And that's what we typically focus on in education. But where we really need to be doing more, is for the lower income kids.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:And COVIDs is going, we're starting to see that that's going to be a train wreck. Our education for this kids who went to-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... public schools.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's certain elasticities, that I think COVID highlights, which is that there's a, there are groups of students who, probably, their ability to substitute to the best case scenario in a very difficult situation, was really, they had a very high, they were able to do it. It may not have been, it wasn't a perfect substitute. They were able to continue to do it. And I think for some groups of students, it was a train wreck.Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:Just their ability to make those substitutions to whatever was required, could be anything ranging from the access to physical resources, like computing, computers, and wifi that's stable, and all these things, to, just simply, the way your brain works. Just being able to be present. I definitely think that COVID cut a mark through the students, that, it did in our family, completely cut a mark through students in weird jagged way, for sure.Peter Arcidiacono:But within your family, you're able to substitute in ways that other families cannot.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And that's the catch. And I think that, I don't work a lot in the K through 12 space, so this is a non-expert opinion on that. But if my read on the studies, is if you find positive effects of, say, charter schools, Catholic schools, smaller class size, if you're going to find positive effects for anyone, it's going to be inner city African Americans. And I think that the reason that you see that, is the way family substitutes, that they're not, their families are not in as good of a position to substitute-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... the way my family is. My kid has a bad teacher, we're going to do the bad effects.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:So you're going to think, "Oh, the teacher's fine." But no, we even did the effects of that teacher, in ways that other families cannot.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. Right. So what do you think is the smoking gun evidence, that that Harvard University has to... What's the smoking gun fact, that's evidence for, that's the most damning evidence for racial discrimination in admissions, that-Peter Arcidiacono:So racial discrimination against Asian Americans, I think that there's a, there's so many damning facts. Well, I'll start with the first one, which is Harvard's own internal offices. They have their own internal research teams. They estimated models of admissions, and consistently found a penalty against Asian Americans.Scott Cunningham:... Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:You could look at that. You'll hear people say, "Well, those are simplistic models." The fit of those models was incredibly high.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:I think. So they were explaining-Scott Cunningham:I think people underestimate the shoe leather sophistication that goes on in these admissions office, with developing their own internal models.Peter Arcidiacono:... Well, and what was striking, is Harvard's defense of this was, "Well, we really didn't understand the model."Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:Well, what was interesting, is that those models also had whether or not you were low income, in it.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And they were confident that those models, the same model, showed that they were giving a bump to low income students.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:It's like, you're going to interpret the coefficient one way when it's the result you like, and another way, when it's the result you don't like.Scott Cunningham:Right. Right. So their own models showed, so what was the penalty? What was it? It was a dummy, a coefficient on a binary indicator for Asian American, or Asian?Peter Arcidiacono:That's right. That's right.Scott Cunningham:How big was it?Peter Arcidiacono:And then, also, it even had stuff on the personal rating. You can see, there was charts from their office that shows, what do you know, Asian Americans on all of Harvard's ratings, are scoring either much better than whites-Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:... or the same as whites, even on the alumni personal rating. So Harvard has these alumni interview, the students, and even on that, Asian Americans are doing similarly to whites.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:And then, you see their own personal rating, based, not on meeting with the applicants. They do much, much worse.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, so what does Harvard have to prove?Peter Arcidiacono:Well, I think typically, in something like discrimination cases, well, what they have to prove, probably depends on the judge, I suppose-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... is the catch. What they were able to say at trial, were things like, "Well, the teachers must be giving them poor ratings. We don't think that Asian Americans are deficient on personal qualities, but maybe the teachers are scoring them poorly." How that is an excuse. I don't-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. I don't see what they're trying to... This is, I guess, where it's frustrating, because I'm struggling to know exactly what the objective function for Harvard is, in their own stated goals. What is their objective function? To create a particular kind of cohort? What is the cohort?Peter Arcidiacono:... Well, I think you'd get a lot of gobbledygook when it comes to that-Scott Cunningham:That's what I was wondering. Yeah. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:... Yeah. So, but I think it is also interesting to think about the counterfactual of, if this case was not associated with affirmative action at all-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... would it have played out the same way? And to me, I think the answer is no. Honestly, I don't think Card even takes the case.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:I think it would've been a much better... Your worse look for Harvard than it was. I think that it was a bad look for Harvard as it was, but because of who brought the case, and because of its ties to affirmative action, that gets back to that waffle analogy, right? If you look at it in the context of the waffle, there's just simply no argument in my mind, for the way they're treating Asian Americans.Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:It's a clear cut discrimination case.Scott Cunningham:Mm.Peter Arcidiacono:And if you just put it in a different context, it would just be completely unacceptable. Imagine Trump Towers having a discrimination suit brought against them by black applicants. And the defense being, "Look, it's not that we're discriminating against black applicants. They just happen to score poorly in our likability rating."Scott Cunningham:Mm-hmm.Peter Arcidiacono:That would be outrageous.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:There would be protests. This is because it's tied to that third rail of affirmative action.Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:But to me, the judge could have ruled, "Look, you can have affirmative action, but you got to stop discriminating against Asian Americans relative to whites.Scott Cunningham:So then, if you could fill up half of Har... So is this what the thing is? Harvard, as a university, collectively, however this ends up being decided, collectively, they have a preference over their student composition.Peter Arcidiacono:Right.Scott Cunningham:And that preference is discriminatory.Peter Arcidiacono:Their preference, I think, lines up with Kendi's in some sense. They would like to have their class look like the population.Scott Cunningham:They would like to have it look like, that they would like 13% African American, whatever percent, what is it, Asian American is what, five, is single digit?Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. And they would like to have a balanced portfolio of Americans.Peter Arcidiacono:And, but even that, I think, is giving Harvard too much credit, in the sense that, what we choose to balance on, we choose to balance on skin color.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:You're not balancing on income.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:You're not balancing on parental education.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:A whole bunch of other things you could've balanced on. Why-Scott Cunningham:Yeah. There's like an infinite number of character. Every person is a bundle of, just almost an infinite number of characteristics. And it's not practically... Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... If you really want a representative class, then you do a lottery among high school graduates.Scott Cunningham:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.Peter Arcidiacono:That would be the only way.Scott Cunningham:That would be the only way, the only way it would be to have a randomized student body. Okay.Peter Arcidiacono:Do you feel like ask this about, was by somebody from a class at Duke, about how would you make the admissions process more equitable?Scott Cunningham:Uh-huh.Peter Arcidiacono:And I'm like, it's a selective admissions process. I don't even know what that-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... means. Even a process where you did the lottery, why is that equitable, because you've got the winners and the losers? The lottery. We're not equalizing outcomes for everybody. We're equalizing X anti.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. It's like, this is all this comp, this is this deep collective choice, social preferences questions about... And it's weird. I guess we're talking about this at Harvard, because we believe that Harvard University will literally change a kid's life, more than going to University of Tennessee, Knoxville, or something like that. Right? That's why we're having this conversation.Peter Arcidiacono:Yeah. I think that that's the perception, that it will literally change their kids' lives.Scott Cunningham:Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:I'm not totally convinced that of there being massive gains-Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:... relative to the counterfactual for-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... at that level.Scott Cunningham:Right.Peter Arcidiacono:I think, when you're at the margin of going to college or not-Scott Cunningham:Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:... that's the big margin.Scott Cunningham:That's the big margin. Yeah. Yeah.Peter Arcidiacono:College quality effects, I think get undone a little bit by college major effects.Scott Cunningham:Right, right, right.Peter Arcidiacono:So yeah. I think that's a real valid question, about whether it

Zach & Zo go on an outer space adventure! They join The Ice Pirates as they pillage, plunder and do whatever is necessary to acquire precious water, but in one of their zany misadventures they are forced into looking for the mythical "Seventh Planet" filled with water.Segment Time StampsOpening Credits:   00:03:23Stuff I Heard: .  . .   00:08:32Favorite Parts . . . .00:11:15Trivia: . . . . . . . . . .  00:42:26Critics' Thoughts:  00:45:09Back Look Cinema: The Podcast Links:www.backlookcinema.comEmail: fanmail@backlookcinema.comTwitter: @backlookcinemaFacebook: The Back Look Cinema Podcast Instagram: backlookcinemapodcastTicTok: @backlookcinemaBack Look Cinema Merch at Teespring.comBack Look Cinema Merch at Teepublic.com

When I think of the economics of the minimum wage, I think of Ted Lasso season 2 when we learn of a pretend new book by Brené Brown, "Enter the Arena, But Bring a Knife". The economics of minimum wage is not for the faint of heart as the question of its effect, both in theory and in reality, has been debated fiercely by extraordinarily competent labor economists for decades, and I don't see it ending any time soon. In this interview, I talk with two economists linked to Texas A&M's economics department -- Jonathan Meer and Jeremy West -- an important paper in the minimum wage literature published in a 2016 issue one of the top labor economics journal, the Journal of Human Resources, about their work on the minimum wage. Check it out and prepared to have your priors confirmed and/or challenged about this important program!

When I think of the economics of the minimum wage, I think of Ted Lasso season 2 when we learn of a pretend new book by Brené Brown, "Enter the Arena, But Bring a Knife". The economics of minimum wage is not for the faint of heart as the question of its effect, both in theory and in reality, has been debated fiercely by extraordinarily competent labor economists for decades, and I don't see it ending any time soon. In this interview, I talk with two economists linked to Texas A&M's economics department -- Jonathan Meer and Jeremy West -- an important paper in the minimum wage literature published in a 2016 issue one of the top labor economics journal, the Journal of Human Resources, about their work on the minimum wage. Check it out and prepared to have your priors confirmed and/or challenged about this important program! Get full access to Scott's Substack at causalinf.substack.com/subscribe

Today's episode is going to be a little different. This week fellow podcaster Jeremy West (@JeremyWest__)will be taking the mic as he graciously asked me to be on his show the 6 AM Mindset Podcast. I chat about the early beginnings of Mr. Cavaliere, How clothes affect the way you feel, and how dressing with intention can change your life. 

Jeremy West Sr. is a Sunday school Teacher and TBS Audit student. Jeremy will share how The Bible Seminary has impacted his life and ministry.Join TBS on Giving Tuesday visit TheBibleSeminary.edu/gtSupport the show (https://swp.paymentsgateway.net/co/default.aspx?pg_api_login_id=1OV15Ta2pl)

When we read scripture we do it from a particular frame of mind. At times the understanding we bring to the Word can lead us to perspectives that may not be reality. Jeremy West tackles this idea by looking at a scripture from James chapter two..."faith without works is dead."

The last best hope for California and indeed - the United States of America itself, is Americans with the passion and patriotism of Amy Phan West. West's courageous fire is contagious and desperately needed to save America from the destructive WOKE ideology of the left. In our chat we began discussing her political ambitions and why recalling Governor Newsom is a moral imperative. Afterwards, we explored diverse topics that made it clear that she was very much the solution for California and not a future problem to avoid. Topics discussed in this podcast: Who is Gavin Newsom supporting? It does not appear to be California. California has become a gangsters paradise Democrats, election Integrity and printing ballots from home (as many as you like) The psychological effect of flipping California Afghanistan, Afghanistan... Afghanistan Impeach, impeach, Impeach!!! Treason. The Second Amendment The Southern Border is a National Security Issue Critical Racist Theory (...because it is racist) The Chinese Communist Party Saigon and Escaping Vietnam Agenda item #1: Get our people out! Biden: It ain't my fault And more... Tune in NOW! Prepare to be inspired. You do not want to miss a single word Amy Phan West has to say. ABOUT MY GUEST Amy Phan West is running as a Republican for election to the U.S. House to represent California's 45th Congressional District. She declared candidacy for the nonpartisan primary in 2022. She ran in 2020 as well. She was born in Da Nang Vietnam, and she and her entire family escaped the Vietnamese Communist regime in 1985 by stowing away in an old fishing boat. They spent more than two years in refugee camps, first in Thailand and then the Philippines, as they sought asylum in the United States. Finally, the United States State Department granted the family's asylum request and the Phans arrived in Huntington Beach to begin their “American Dream.” Amy's parents worked very hard to provide for the family. Generous support offered by local Vietnamese church organizations played an instrumental role in their successfully integrating into American society. Knowing the important value of education, all seven children attended school, graduated high school, got their higher education, and are living their American Dream. Amy has been married to Jeremy West since 2009, they have three young sons, ages 9, 7, and 5. Their adventurous family enjoys sporting activities, including camping, BMX, snowboarding, and other seasonal extreme sports. Website: https://www.amyphanwest.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/amyphanwest Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amyphanwest/ Launch video: https://youtu.be/hUi75mqyvPg Donation link: https://secure.anedot.com/amy-phan-west/donate and www.VictorMarx.com/urgent ... STAY IN TOUCH! Subscribe to Jim Stroud's daily updates here: https://sendfox.com/jimstroud Read the archives of Jim Stroud's content here: https://blog.jimstroud.com/archives/ --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/jim-stroud2/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/jim-stroud2/support

Smitty and panelists Joshua Paul, Abby McKiernan, Jeremy West, and Matthew Zerilli wrap up Season 1 with the Conspiracy Theory Spectacular. Watch for season 2 with new and returning panelists, so there's always a different point of view. What IS a conspiracy theory?  What does it mean to you?How many conspiracy theories sound at least a little believable? Are UFOs a conspiracy theory anymore?Which is the bigger conspiracy...that there is a god, or that there is no god? Is there such a thing as a harmless conspiracy theory?Dig the podcast? Become a subscriber. Be a part of the community and join the Facebook group Smitty's SmitHole Slipper Club  https://www.facebook.com/groups/we3sm...Wanna become a Patreon? Click the link https://www.patreon.com/we3smithsWant to support Smitty's Five Year Plan without the Patreon rigamarole? Click the link https://www.gofundme.com/manage/smitt...Don't know what the Five Year Plan is? Click the link https://youtu.be/KlmIxK1wUToThanks for watching, and thanks for sharing in the journey!Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/Smittydicks)

Smitty along with panelists Abby McKiernan, Jeremy West and Matthew Zerilli stopped by Mars to talk 6 topics over 6 proverbial beers, and keep the conversation going on...Are you ready for maskless crowds? 01:10Will you go maskless now that the CDC says fully vaccinated people are clear? 09:30What's the most panicky thing you've done? 20:20Smitty always says, "We're living in the future". What about the future are you impressed with, and what are you disappointed in? 26:55Probably the dumbest topic on the podcast to date. Somebody did a study that said men that wear logos on their shirts are more promiscuous, so we talked about that dumb shit 41:10We talked picky eaters 47:40Dig the podcast? Become a subscriber. Audio versions on Spotify, Google and Apple podcastsWanna become a Patreon? Click the link https://www.patreon.com/we3smithsWant to support Smitty’s Five Year Plan without the Patreon rigamarole? Click the link https://www.gofundme.com/manage/smittys-fiveyear-planDon’t know what the Five Year Plan is? Click the link https://youtu.be/KlmIxK1wUToThanks for watching, and thanks for sharing in the journey!Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/Smittydicks)

Thinking Outside the Bud is a business podcast devoted to driving innovation in the cannabis space. During each episode, we speak with founders, investors, thought leaders, researchers, advocates, and policy makers who are finding new and exciting ways for cannabis to positively impact business, society, and culture. Have each episode delivered to your inbox by subscribing here: http://www.thinkingoutsidethebud.com/subscribe

Interview with Brisbane Improviser and Mindfulness Coach Jeremy West. Jeremy performs improvisation with Big Fork Theatre and ImproMafia. Check out some of Big Fork Theatre’s Improv shows on You Tube. Jeremy is also a Mindfulness Coach and teaches people skills around living in the present moment. Recording in the midst of Melbourne’s Stage 4 lockdown (on 22 August), we discuss: The benefits of mindfulness and living in the present moment, The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris, acting in accordance with your values, Jeremy’s love of improvisation, mindfulness and active listening being involved in improv, Jeremy's experience of Covid in Brisbane/QLD, the importance of daily practice of mindfulness, commitment to physical and mental exercises, misconceptions about mindfulness, the human need for physical contact, Jeremy’s super power and his message that in the present moment there is rarely a problem.

A nosy trombonist (Melissa Brown) chats to other brass professionals about their careers, how they got there and what music they'd happily put in the bin. In this episode we hear from cornett player, Jeremy West. Jeremy tells us about how he was drawn to historical performance, his life as a freelance musician, and where his favourite place to play is. To hear Jeremy and about his instruments click here. All episodes recorded during COVID-19 lockdown via video call programmes. There are occasional technical glitches - please bear with us! Facebook: Bold as Brass Podcast Instagram: @boldasbrasspodcast Show artwork: Stuart Crane Music credit: Upbeat Forever by Kevin MacLeod Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/5011-upbeat-forever License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Jeremy West talks about racial bias in police investigations.

In this series on "How to Pray" we're using the acronym P.R.A.Y. (Pause. Rejoice. Ask. Yield), developed by Pete Greig, to help us engage with prayer in a more simple and meaningful way. This week Jeremy West discusses the 4th part of our prayer structure "Yield" as we learn to say yes to what God is doing.

In this series on "How to Pray" we're using the acronym P.R.A.Y. (Pause. Rejoice. Ask. Yield), developed by Pete Greig, to help us engage with prayer in a more simple and meaningful way. This week Jeremy West will explores the 3rd part of our prayer structure "Ask" as he shares deep truths with us that will transform the manner in which we "Ask".

In this series on "How to Pray" we're using the acronym P.R.A.Y. (Pause. Rejoice. Ask. Yield), developed by Pete Greig, to help us engage with prayer in a more simple and meaningful way. This week Jeremy West dives into what it means to "rejoice" in prayer and how this transforms our prayers and our perspective.

In this series on "How to Pray" we're using the acronym P.R.A.Y. (Pause.Rejoice.Ask.Yield), developed by Pete Greig, to help us engage with prayer in a more simple and meaningful way. This week Jeremy West lays out the significance and impact of what it means to "Pause" as the first step in prayer.

Hosts of the DIVI Crypto Podcast Steve and Geoff interview Mark and Ian from FreeTalkLive about their first encounters with Bitcoin. The FreeTalkLive hosts have talked about alternative currencies since it started in 2002 and are proud to claim that they heard about Bitcoin in 2010. This was the time when the crypto was valued at 24 cents. Topic #1: Early Interactions To Bitcoin Mark narrated their interaction with a certain Jeremy West in 2010 who they had lunch with and had offered to pay using Bitcoin. Mark said he was very skeptical about Bitcoin and had no idea it was going to become bi. But eventually, they decided to use it as a form of payment for their advertising. --

Jeremy West talks about racial bias in police investigations.

In this final episode of the year we contemplate purposeful living and the beautiful friendships that blossom in the school the nutrition community with Vanessa Hayes and Jeremy West.  Vanessa and Jeremy are a culinary geniuses with extensive leadership experience in school nutrition.  They use their unique professional and personal backgrounds to deliver powerful and edutaining (educational and entertaining) presentations on a variety of subjects.  I am so grateful that they both made the time to come on the show.  We cover a lot of territory this episode; we discuss - culinary resources for school food service operations - the importance of professional organizations - purpose driven work and living - connecting beyond labels

About Amy Phan West for the 47th Congressional District in California: Amy Phan West escaped the invading Communist Regime at the end of the Vietnam War, with her parents and siblings, stowed away in the bowels of a Vietnamese Fishing Boat, in 1985. Half her family had been murdered by the communists and they barely escaped the same fate. During their escape, they witnessed the atrocities and horrors committed by the communists and were almost caught, which, if it had happened, would have led to certain death. In the boat, they were at sea for 3 days, having already run out of fresh drinking water and the future looking bleak with death by starvation a real possibility, when a German Oil Tanker found them adrift and rendered assistance.  They were taken to Thailand, where they stayed at a refugee camp for more than a year and a half. Then, they went to the Philippines, where the entire Phan family sought asylum in the United States.  After six months in the Philippines, they were granted asylum by the United States State Department. In 1987, the Phan family landed in Huntington Beach, California, to begin the next chapter of their lives, “The American Dream”.    The Phans worked hard to provide for their family in America. They embraced the country that had given them the freedom and opportunities that were not available to them in their native land. More than anything, they were happy to be alive and not be persecuted. Even then, they might not have made it, had it not been for the generous support offered by local Vietnamese Church Organizations in Southern California. The Phans embraced Christianity, just like they embraced America. Amy, like her brothers and sisters, graduated High School. Amy went on to Orange County Community College, where she received her associate’s degree in Business, and then went on to earn her bachelor’s degree in liberal studies at California State Long Beach. Amy Phan West is a proud American, wife and mother of three boys, Small Business Owner, Commissioner of Personnel Board, Commissioner of OC Parks and a delegate for the CAGOP. She is an advocate for family and religious Freedom. She is a proud Conservative and a strong supporter of President Trump. She supports our right to bear arms and defend ourselves, a belief that she holds with strong conviction due to her experience witnessing first hand what happens when a tyrannical government disarms its citizens. She is pro-life and respects the need to protect our babies. Amy wants to return California to its former glory, having witnessed the periodic degradation of the state at the hands of the democrats. She has wants to greatly improve the educational system in California since education is the greatest gift we can give to our children. She wants to end the homelessness that is a blight on California and tackle illegal immigration, which has been draining the economy of California. She is greatly concerned with the increase in intensity and devastation caused by the yearly forest fires in California and make it a priority to prevent this from becoming a yearly issue. Please support her race as an #AmericaFirst candidate to take back the House of Representatives CA-47th district. Amy married Jeremy West in 2009 and together they have three young sons, ages 7,5, and 3.  They are the co-proprietors of an Independent Rental Car Consortium. As a family, they enjoy many adventurous sporting activities, including camping, BMX, snowboarding and other seasonal extreme sports. DONATE HERE https://secure.anedot.com/amy-phan-west-for-congress/donate Contact # (714) 230-5085

East Coast Herbalist is a retailer specializing in high quality craft CBD products. We source hemp from local vermont farms and sell products b2b as well as b2c through our website. Mark and Jeremy are friends for over 20 years and have very different a professional experiences that intersect in the perfect way. Mark is […] The post “How Best to Use CBD” with Jeremy West & Mark Laquerre of East Coast Herbalist appeared first on Radio Entrepreneurs.

Jeremy West brings us a little gem from Jeremiah 316, reminding us that the Old Covenant and that way of relating to God is gone...we won't miss it, and it won't ever be that way again.

Jeremy West | 1 Samuel 14

Jeremy West | 1 Samuel 14

Every once in awhile we get to do something big, but every day we have the opportunity to do something small that will have a big impact.

Our Worship Pastor, Jeremy West, continues our series on how Jesus turns the world upside down and right side up. This week's message contrasts the world's definition of wealth with Heaven's definition. Do we realize how wealthy we are by earthly standards? Does true satisfaction and happiness come from the possessions we have, or is there more to the story?

Jeremy West began his career in broadcast and theatre, working for Sky Australia and several theater companies as well as his own video production and software company. He’s worked as an AV engineer for AMX Australia and is currently revamping the way AV is done at Deakin University in Melbourne, Australia. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Jeremy West of Antioch Dallas wraps up Fall Retreat 2016 with a great word about experiencing the Kingdom through friendship with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the only part of God on the earth, and Eph. 1:13-14 says that He is like our down payment of future glory. A down payment is any portion up to 99.99%, so how much of God do you want? Are you content with 5%? Or do you want the 99.99%?

Hey everyone! This week, we welcome back our buddy Jeremy West to talk about the history of zombies, some "real" cases and what to do if the world turns to shit when the zombie apocalypse happens. Thank so much for listening and have a great week! www.TheWhatCasters.com 

Hey everyone and thanks for listening to The What Cast!You know we have asked this questions many times on the show before, does the testimony of a paranormal event hold more weight when it is being reported by someone in a higher social stature? I don't mean rich people i mean does it mean more when a cop says he saw a ufo than a civilian. i have always wanted to talk to somebody in these official like positions about having paranormal experiences or witnessing anything while they were on the job. Well this week that is exactly what we get to do, we are going to talk to our buddy Jeremy West who is retired US Air Force Security Forces. That means he shoots the fucken creepy shit that makes noises outside of bases. Well he had some weird paranormal experiences as a kid and it looks like it followed him into adulthood. We talk about some weird shit he saw while in service, talk about couple other things and goofing off in classic what cast fashion. We hope you enjoy thank you very much Jeremy for coming on the show and thank you guys very very much for listening. www.TheWhatCasters.com

Actors Benjamin Curns, Jeremy West, Allison Glenzer, Brandi Rhome, and Gregory Jon Phelps join MBC MLitt/MFA graduate Casey Caldwell for this conversation on Richard III. Recorded before a live audience in the Blackfriars Playhouse on March 2nd, 2012.Actor-Scholar Council: Richard III