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The Storm Skiing Journal and Podcast supports bears, quadrangles, and liberal interpretations of The Iliad. Sign up for the free or paid newsletter to get updates on none of these things. Thank you for supporting independent ski journalism.Welcome to the Storm's short-form, news-focused podcast. Don't worry, I will still write newsletters too. Paid subscribers can leave a comment in the article below, or by joining The Storm's chat (also below). I'll respond to some comments in the next episode, which is scheduled for Monday, Sept. 14.The Zoom transcript (click “transcript” above for the Substack transcript, which will zoom to any point in the video when you click on the associated text block; timestamps below DO NOT MATCH THE VIDEO)Stuart Winchester: Welcome to The Storm! I'm your host, Stuart Winchester. It is September 10th, 2026, and we have some big, big news in Ski World today.00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:14.000Stuart Winchester: So one of the things that I focused on since launching the storm in 2019 is the rapid.00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:30.000Stuart Winchester: Exponential growth in US based multi mountain ski passes and one of the biggest icon pass today released five new partners for the 2026 to 27 season. So I'm gonna break those down for you.00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:46.000Stuart Winchester: I am going to talk a little bit more about IndyPass and some of their partner shuffles. Then we are going to be joined by IndyPass owner, Eric Mogenson, who will give us a breakdown on all things happening with Indy, Black Mountain, and Entebeni Systems.00:06:46.000 --> 00:07:01.000Stuart Winchester: reader reaction, but I want to jump right into Icon Pass. Icon hits us today with, as I said, 5 new ski areas, 3 are full partners, and those… which means 7 days on the Icon Pass.00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:06.000Stuart Winchester: 5 days on the Icon Base Pass. All 3 are in Asia.00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:13.000Stuart Winchester: The first is Matarau, Japan. That will be ICON's 10th ski resort in Japan.00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:28.000Stuart Winchester: And then, Icon, last year, was the first U.S.-based pass to add a ski area in China, and Icon adds two more today, though they're nowhere near the ski area that it added last year. They are sort of close.00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:47.000Stuart Winchester: to each other. So, we're gonna break those down first, and then ICON added two mountains to its two-day tier, uh, which it calls Bonus Mountains, which ICON insists are not ICON Pass members, uh, but I insist they are, because you can access them with your ICON Pass. Therefore, they are on.00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:53.000Stuart Winchester: the Icon Pass, no matter what Altera tells us. So, let's start with Montreal, Japan, and if you're on…00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:55.000Stuart Winchester: The…00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:04.000Stuart Winchester: If you're on the video, I'm going to share my screen here because we're going to do a little visual helping.00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:10.000Stuart Winchester: All right, so let's take this away. All right, so the first one I want to break down.00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.000Stuart Winchester: is…00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:26.000Stuart Winchester: Madarao, Japan, and I've actually written about this ski area before, because they were an IndiePass member, and this is the article that I wrote back in 2023, when Madarao joined IndiePass, and Indie's been a big leader in.00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:27.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:40.000Stuart Winchester: building out a network in Japan. So, the ski resorts in Japan are interesting. I've not skied there, but I've been there in the summer and ridden the lifts around.00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:45.000Stuart Winchester: And the skiing is very much like a mix of…00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:58.000Stuart Winchester: The Cottonwoods and New England. And what I mean by that is, if you're looking at the screen here, you can see the stats on Mattarau. 512 inches of average annual snowfall.00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:12.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, but not a lot of vert, 1,444 feet, and as you can see from the trail map, if you're looking here, it's not a big trail footprint. So, what I mean when I say Cottonwoods is the snowfall, and when I say…00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:29.000Stuart Winchester: New England, I mean the size. They tend to be not huge vert, sort of compact. If they do have a lot of vert, like the Jacuba Valley ski resorts that are on Vail, they tend to go, uh, kind of straight up and be side by side. You don't have a lot of the mega resorts as you would have.00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:40.000Stuart Winchester: in North America, or especially in Europe. So, it's good that the passes are all building density in Japan, because the ski areas are not…00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:43.000Stuart Winchester: This is not a place that you would go to necessarily.00:09:43.000 --> 00:10:02.000Stuart Winchester: like Vail Mountain and spend a week, or like Whistler. Another thing I want to note about Japan, you can see here that Matarau has some glade zones marked. In a lot of cases, skiing off-piste or in the trees, even though that's what Japan is known for, in a lot of cases, my understanding is that that's pretty heavily policed and forbidden.00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:17.000Stuart Winchester: So you really have to research your ski areas before you go over to figure out which ones will actually allow you to go off-piste, which is what most of us want to do, right? If we're coming from North America, we're going there for the big powder. Japan is a little more of an on-piste tradition.00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:21.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit more like Europe. So, I…00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:33.000Stuart Winchester: there's… to underscore the scope of what we have now available to us in Japan as U.S.-based pass holders. So, with the addition of Madarao today.00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:49.000Stuart Winchester: Now, 53 ski areas in Japan have joined the Epic, Icon, Indy, or Mountain Collective Passes. And I actually, I want to show you something I have that's really cool. So, I have this gigantic chart, and it's kind of…00:10:49.000 --> 00:11:04.000Stuart Winchester: it's kind of hard to navigate, but I'm slowly making it a little bit better. And so this is a chart that's variously called a bunch of different things. Right now, I'm calling it the Encyclopedia Britannica. Sometimes it's been the Passmaster.00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:17.000Stuart Winchester: 5,000. And I just kind of change the name whenever I want, but the link is always the same. And what I've… it's a really slow Google Sheet, and I definitely need a better platform, but if you go, there's all these tabs.00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:33.000Stuart Winchester: Down at the bottom, and again, this is where it's nice to have the video, so you can see what I'm showing you here. So I have all these tabs. One of the tabs is all MegaPass ski areas. So I have this divided up, and these are just little tables that pivot off the main table, so all the stats are up to date.00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.000Stuart Winchester: So first, I have this…00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:42.000Stuart Winchester: chart here with all ski areas that are on any U.S.-based pass, and we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second.00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:43.000Stuart Winchester: Then I have…00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:59.000Stuart Winchester: all U.S. ski areas, then I have New England, I have Japan, so let's pause on Japan for a moment. 53 ski areas, 11 Epic, 10 Icon, 32 Indy, 1 Mountain Collective. You can see all the stats down here. Again, not big.00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:16.000Stuart Winchester: skiable acre footprints, and really, Japan measures things differently than North America. They tend to measure snowpack rather than inches of snowfall. I did find a good average annual snowfall chart on Powderhounds, which is a great site that I'll talk more about.00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:25.000Stuart Winchester: for international research of ski areas. But if you see these acreage totals, you know, there's really nothing much.00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:35.000Stuart Winchester: Here's Niseko United, it's 2,100 acres, that's 5 ski resorts combined, right next to each other. Rasutsu is, uh, is 2,000, but most of these are under…00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:51.000Stuart Winchester: 500, so you really prepare yourself for that. It's one place, I think, Japan, where it would help to get a guide. Everything tends to be pretty cheap once you get on the ground. In Japan, the lift tickets are nothing, so having someone to show you around and show you where you can go under the ropes.00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:57.000Stuart Winchester: is a good idea. And, you know, I want to jump ahead to reader feedback for a moment. So I had…00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:14.000Stuart Winchester: this comment from Allison Wood. She said, I look forward to seeing your future efforts. I know there's enough in American skiing to discuss, but I'd be curious if you would further discuss European Alps destinations. It seems to be growing in popularity due to competitive pricing versus U.S.00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:28.000Stuart Winchester: Western resorts. A week at Big Sky appears to be the same price as a week in Switzerland for those in the Eastern USA. The answer is absolutely yes. I do want to cover the Alps and Japan and all of these international destinations more.00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:43.000Stuart Winchester: I don't have the personal on-the-ground knowledge base with those ski areas that I do with the U.S. ski areas, so I'm reaching out to my contacts in Europe, in Japan, who know these resorts intimately, and I'm gonna bring them on the show to try to help us make sense, because if you go back.00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:47.000Stuart Winchester: We go back to the Encyclopedia Britannica for a second.00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:49.000Stuart Winchester: You'll see that…00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.000Stuart Winchester: The, uh… if I can get to it…00:13:52.000 --> 00:14:05.000Stuart Winchester: Okay, so Japan has 53 ski areas, Canada has another 55, and most of us can sort those out easily enough. The harder ones is Europe. I mean, Europe, there's 61 ski areas, and sometimes a ski area in Europe is, you know.00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:21.000Stuart Winchester: 10 ski areas that put together are as big as all the ski areas in Utah. So I really need some help to break those down. But that's the great thing about this new format is that it will allow me to bring in more voices more frequently since there's more frequent shows. All right.00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:38.000Stuart Winchester: Icon also today added two ski areas in China, and the best site to just get the basics of any ski area in the world is, I've found, skiresort.com. They have a profile of every ski area. They tend to keep it up to date. I don't know who runs the site.00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:54.000Stuart Winchester: I would like to connect with them at some point, but this is really my go-to for… so this is Betahu, I'm sure I'm pronouncing that wrong, one of the ski areas that ICON added in China, and they have all the basic information, the elevation, which is not high, it's all in meters, obviously, out of the U.S.00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:01.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, what I really like is the lift breakdown and the trail map. So, the… the thing about the ski areas in China.00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:07.000Stuart Winchester: is just like everything else in China, they're pretty much brand new. I read this really interesting.00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:13.000Stuart Winchester: quote in the New York Times several years ago, and the notion.00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.000Stuart Winchester: was basically China…00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:31.000Stuart Winchester: stayed pretty much in the 19th century for all of the 20th century, and then it got to the 21st century in about 10 years. So, you go there, there's high-speed rail, everything's new, there's new buildings. The ski resorts are new as well, and you can see this in their lift fleet. I mean, this…00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.000Stuart Winchester: You know, they have a…00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:49.000Stuart Winchester: six eight-person gondolas, one six-person gondola, two high-speed six-packs, three high-speed detached quads, no fixed grip lifts at all, and then you take a look at the trail map, and again, this is probably a little more like Japan, where these are.00:15:49.000 --> 00:16:03.000Stuart Winchester: a little bit smaller ski areas than what we're used to, uh, as far as the Mountain West. But, you know, it's all very well interconnected. I would expect a lot of on-piste skiing. You know, with a… with a immature ski culture, I wouldn't expect a lot of glade stuff.00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:19.000Stuart Winchester: to be developed. Kind of talking on my rear end, to be honest, because I've not skied in China or even been to China, but these are my perceptions with the different ski cultures I know. I'll try to track down someone who knows better. Here's the other Icon Pass resort, Lake Songwa Resort, and I want to make…00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:30.000Stuart Winchester: that we kind of have an Aspen-Crested Butte situation going on here, so Sangua and, uh, this other one they added, uh…00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:49.000Stuart Winchester: Beidou, there, as you can see on this Google map, they're 24 miles apart in the mountains, but it looks like about a 4-hour drive, so there's not really a road through the city. It's the same kind of deal with Aspen and Crested Butte, where they're pretty close, but it's a long drive around. These are seasonal roads that Google doesn't know about, so it's about a 5-hour drive in the winter.00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.000Stuart Winchester: I believe. So…00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:03.000Stuart Winchester: We have these, and then, if you want to go to China to experience skiing, Icon gives you the means to do so. And then, Icon added…00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:16.000Stuart Winchester: to their 2-day tier, which again, they're saying is not IconPass. I want to talk about the 2-day tier a little bit in general. So, Icon started this 2-day tier.00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:23.000Stuart Winchester: last year, and I think what they were trying to do is mirror what Vail did.00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:37.000Stuart Winchester: with its feeder ski areas and all these little places that are bought all over the country, Mount Brighton in Michigan, and Afton Alps in Minnesota, and Wilmot in Wisconsin, and all the resorts around Cleveland.00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:49.000Stuart Winchester: and you know, Alpine Valley. And then there's the names escaping me. Boston Mills, Brandywine. I just skied there and did a write-up on it. So so yeah, they're.00:17:49.000 --> 00:18:04.000Stuart Winchester: Vail bought up all these ski areas. Well, Icon, instead of doing that and buying, has added two days only on the full Icon Pass, which is currently $1,449, uh, two days to 11 different ski areas around the country.00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:19.000Stuart Winchester: It's been growing that list. Silver Star was one last year, and it converted to full Icon, but right now, if you're on the screen share, you can see the 11 that are currently on the Icon Pass two-day roster. So we…00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:23.000Stuart Winchester: had today the additions of Cabarfay Peaks in Michigan.00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:25.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:37.000Stuart Winchester: In Wyoming, we had snowy range. So Caberfay Peaks is actually, it's an awesome ski area. It's one of my favorite ski areas. I grew up about an hour and 15 minutes from there.00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.000Stuart Winchester: And with Cabot Fay, it…00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:55.000Stuart Winchester: It's a really fun place. They're constantly building it up. And what the cabaret you see today is very different than the cabaret that existed a long time ago. It basically used to be a two mile sprawl of rope tows and starting in the 1980s.00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the families that owned it dug up from the bottom here.00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:07.000Stuart Winchester: and added to the top. So they went from a couple hundred vertical feet to 485 vertical feet, and it continued to…00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:18.000Stuart Winchester: expand, and they have another expansion in the works over here on Green Mountain. Should be coming 27-28, and I'm gonna have Tim and Pete Meyer from Calgary Fay Peaks on next week to talk about that a little more.00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.000Stuart Winchester: And then we have…00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:36.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, it's Snowy Range, Wyoming, and Snowy Range might seem like a little bit of a weird one, but Snowy Range is actually very logical. They've had a long-standing relationship that's in southern Wyoming. It's not, it's only a couple hours from Steamboat. They have a long-standing relationship with Steamboat.00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:51.000Stuart Winchester: to a snowy range season pass for 300 and some dollars this year. They changed that to half off in a 3 day icon session pass, which is good at Steamboat and several other mountains. And now, if you have a full icon, you would also get 2 more days at Steamboat.00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, or you would actually get 2 days at Snowy Range.00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:00.000Stuart Winchester: if you were, you know, wanted to escape the crowds at Steamboat one day. So, we are gonna…00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.000Stuart Winchester: Come back to…00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:16.000Stuart Winchester: IndyPass in a moment. Actually, I have one more IndyPass update, then I'm gonna go to Eric. So, Mission Ridge and Blacktail in Washington have left IndyPass.00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.000Stuart Winchester: Hold on, let me just…00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.000Stuart Winchester: So Eric, I'll be right there.00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.000Stuart Winchester: We'll get to Mission to Blacktail in a minute. I'm gonna bring Eric in.00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.000Stuart Winchester: And I'm going to stop my screen share.00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, Eric?00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.000Erik Mogensen: What's up, man?00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:57.000Stuart Winchester: How you doing? Joining us now is the director of IndyPass, the founder of Entebeni Systems, and the operator of Black Mountain, New Hampshire. Eric Mogenson is a good friend of the storm, and he joins us now from where? Where are you, Eric?00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:05.000Erik Mogensen: I am, uh, calling in from Black Mountain, New Hampshire, our new home, and I'm up at the Alpine Cabin.00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:18.000Stuart Winchester: I want to start on the Alpine Cabin. Tell us what the Alpine Cabin was when you arrived at Black Mountain and what it has turned into from what it is and from a revenue standpoint.00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.000Erik Mogensen: Yep.00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:34.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, so, um, I spend the first 8 to 10 hours of my day working with our engineering and product teams, and most of it is in front of a computer or on the phone, but by 5 PM I try to be up here on the mountain every.00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:52.000Erik Mogensen: night. Like, doing trail work, on the excavator, snowmaking, lift work. But I keep a desk up here in the summer. Couldn't keep a desk here in the winter. Um, but I do keep a desk up here so that when I have an idea, or I want to come write something down, or I want to watch a YouTube video, or do something, this place is super productive for me.00:21:53.000 --> 00:22:11.000Erik Mogensen: It's like my peaceful, happy place in the summer. In the winter, there is nothing peaceful about this place. This, this place rages, uh, European style. So, when we took over Black Mountain, the Alpine cabin, the credit card receipts from the Alpine cabin the year before.00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:22.000Erik Mogensen: were $38,000, uh, for the season in sales. Um, and the year after, our first year that we took it over, it was over $300,000.00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:29.000Erik Mogensen: Um, and then our second year, it was over $600,000, and most of that comes down to champagne.00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:38.000Erik Mogensen: But don't look at champagne as something you drink. Champagne is something that you use to celebrate. And so I think.00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:50.000Erik Mogensen: The long-winded answer to your question is, is the Alpine cabin is truly a place to celebrate the sport and culture of skiing, and people are definitely holding on to that.00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:03.000Stuart Winchester: It's an amazing space, and if folks aren't familiar with Black Mountain, that's the main double chair to the summit right behind you, and it goes right over the alpine cabin. It's a party scene, and it's a lot of fun.00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:00.000Erik Mogensen: Oh, yeah.00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:20.000Stuart Winchester: Going from $38,000 to $600,000, 20X in revenue, I mean, Eric, that's the kind of revenue stream that could change the path of a lot of small ski areas. Is that replicable, do you think, at some of these smaller family-owned ski areas around the country that.00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:25.000Stuart Winchester: are really tied to old revenue models and just need a little spark.00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:32.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I don't know if you can scale the champagne necessarily, but you can definitely scale.00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:51.000Erik Mogensen: the focus on the culture of skiing. And I think that's really what the independents do so well, is that, you know, the wood fireplaces smell authentic, the people are very authentic, the ski trails are authentic, they're weird, they're quirky, the lifts are slow, right?00:23:51.000 --> 00:24:06.000Erik Mogensen: Those a lot of people look at those things. We've been programed as skiers to see those things as liabilities. They're actually our biggest assets. And so, yeah, the Alpine, you know, the Alpine cabin was a little 200 square foot patrol shack.00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:11.000Erik Mogensen: that sold some, you know, beer and hot dogs.00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:21.000Erik Mogensen: But we never looked at that as a liability. We never looked at that as, hey, we need to go build a 20,000 square foot mid-mountain lodge, take on a ton of debt.00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:32.000Erik Mogensen: Um, we really looked at it as an opportunity, and I think every single small ski area has that exact same opportunity to focus on the authenticity of the product that they deliver.00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:48.000Stuart Winchester: There's been a ripple effect, too. I mean, what can you tell us about skier visits before and after you purchased it? Because Black, for background, for people who are not familiar with Black, the reason you own Black is because they announced they were closing on Facebook. They said, we're done. The skier has been open since 1930, whatever.00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:57.000Stuart Winchester: said, we're done, this was 3 years ago, and you said, no. And you tried to find a buyer, looked for a year, uh, and decided to buy it yourself. So, so…00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:03.000Stuart Winchester: You took a dying skier, what did the skier visits revenue look like when you got it, and what do they look like today?00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:15.000Erik Mogensen: It was about $700,000, $750,000 in top line revenue when we bought the whole ski area. Yeah, including the $32,000 in hot dogs and beer at this cabin.00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.000Stuart Winchester: That's the whole ski area.00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:16.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:27.000Erik Mogensen: Um, so it was the entire ski area. I don't quite know what the skier visits were. Um, we know what the ticketed visits were, but I would guesstimate that the skier visits were somewhere between, you know, 10 and 15,000.00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:20.000Stuart Winchester: Mm-hmm.00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:43.000Erik Mogensen: Um, in our second year, we took it to $2.5 million in top line revenue. Um, we've surpassed $5 million, uh, here in our 25th or 26th month. And skier visits, you know, all in, including employees and the whole thing, right about 55,000.00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:48.000Erik Mogensen: So it's been a big turnaround. It's been interesting, learned a lot.00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:50.000Erik Mogensen: And.00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:56.000Erik Mogensen: I think this is 100% doable by most of the smallest areas on the planet.00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:02.000Erik Mogensen: You just have to realize that if you want a different and better result, you have to take different and better action.00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, I mean, you proved me wrong, because I, you know…00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:16.000Stuart Winchester: I thought Black had maybe just had its time, because it's surrounded by two Vail Own Mountains and Cranmore, which is a high-speed lift. Sunday River is right down the road. Uh, you have intense competition from Epic.00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:26.000Stuart Winchester: and… and Black Mountain is not an especially snowy mountain, like, say, Smuggler's Notch, we'll talk about in a minute. I… I didn't know if… if it had enough aura.00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:38.000Stuart Winchester: But it seems like you've either tapped the aura or created it, and really turned it around, and really given me a lot of hope that a lot of the ski areas that we see around the country, that…00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:45.000Stuart Winchester: Seem to be up against this modernization curve, they can't quite get ahead, might be able to take other routes to get there.00:26:45.000 --> 00:27:00.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, and I think, too, Stu, it's worth noting, like, yeah, I'm proud of what we've done here, but there's a lot of really good operators out there that have done this, too. You know, having grown up in Buffalo, which I'll call, like, the Eastern Midwest of the Midwest.00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:10.000Erik Mogensen: Right? There's really well-managed ski areas that focus on the food and beverage, that focus on the authenticity, um, that drive a ton of other revenue.00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:23.000Erik Mogensen: Um, that are creative, uh, in that way, and I think we just have to be accepting of those things. We have to be accepting of them, we have to share what works, uh, share what doesn't work, and collaborate, um.00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:29.000Erik Mogensen: And and then we'll be fine. We'll be fine. These little skier is have a huge advantage.00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:39.000Erik Mogensen: in the fact that they are… they are run by authentic and passionate people. That… they… they are… they are run…00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:46.000Erik Mogensen: not as a profit center. Um, and yes, they need to be profitable to be sustainable and have reinvestment, right? But…00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:51.000Erik Mogensen: These little ski areas have such a remarkable advantage over some of the big areas.00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:57.000Erik Mogensen: and and how they're managed and what their direction looks like. We just have to take advantage of it and talk about it more.00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:06.000Stuart Winchester: this is just the beginning of the story, too. All right, let's switch over to Andy Pass, and, you know, my questions around Black, when you were initially taking it over, were…00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:24.000Stuart Winchester: how many retro ski areas does New England have room for in a market? Like, Mad River Glen has crafted its whole image around being this retro ski area. You know, they groom, they make snow up to 2,000 whatever feet, the single chair is a 1940 whatever, but they rebuilt it in 2007, so…00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.000Stuart Winchester: It is a well-maintained place.00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:42.000Stuart Winchester: as sort of like a museum. It's… it's… it's… the facade is old school, and it skis that way, but really, it's… it's been well tended to. Smuggler's Notch is another one of those that feels like 1960s, around 1960s haul lifts, including.00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:57.000Stuart Winchester: One of the longest in the country, the Madonna lift. Uh, and I saw black in that same mold and said, okay, how many of these do we have room for? But Smuggs is, at the end of the day, a awesome ski area, and you added it to IndyPass. I mean, how big of a victory is that for New England skiers?00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:03.000Stuart Winchester: to now have Smuggs, Jay, Waterville, all these ski areas on the one pass.00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:11.000Erik Mogensen: I mean, look, you've got… you've got Smogs, you've got Jay, you've got Bolton, you've got Cannon, you've got Waterville, um.00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:28.000Erik Mogensen: we've really leveled the playing field in the East, and it's exactly what we intend to do in other places of the country, and also around the world. Uh, and I think what we're proving here in New England, there's been a lot of focus with IndyPass in New England over the last two years, and a lot of that has to do.00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:44.000Erik Mogensen: With Black Mountain and our move and our things there. But what we're proving we can do here, we are going to replicate in other markets. There's no question in my mind. And I think what we're going to replicate is the fact that you don't have to be epic. You don't have to be iconic.00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:50.000Erik Mogensen: to be a really stable, well-earning business. You can be part of an independent group.00:29:50.000 --> 00:30:09.000Erik Mogensen: and still push and plow forward, and compete. So, you know, and I… look, I don't judge a ski area by its vertical. Don't judge a ski area by how many high-speed lifts it has. I think that's the mistake that we keep getting pulled into in skiing. And our… it's the mistake that we make as well as operators, and we…00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:54.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:16.000Erik Mogensen: we pass that mistake on to the consumers, right? Bigger is not better, it's just bigger.00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:33.000Erik Mogensen: Faster is not better. It's just faster, right? More lifts. Sure, that sounds great, but you have to pay for those lifts as well. And so that is going to there's that money doesn't just come from the sky that that money is going to be passed on to the consumer.00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:41.000Erik Mogensen: And the more and more we continue to do that, the more and more expensive and exclusive skiing's gonna become. So, again, I'll bring it back to…00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:51.000Erik Mogensen: One of the greatest advantages these places have are being small, are having slow lifts, are being independent, are being authentic. And that's exactly what Smugs is.00:30:51.000 --> 00:31:01.000Stuart Winchester: However, SMUGS also has 2,600 feet of vertical, 1,000 acres of skiing, and 322 inches of average snowfall. The numbers do help.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:08.000Erik Mogensen: They do, but I'll leave the numbers to your spreadsheets that I can barely understand at this point.00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.000Stuart Winchester: The numbers do help, though, it's offline.00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.000Stuart Winchester: Well, that makes two of us and probably everyone else.00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.000Erik Mogensen: Those will speak for themselves.00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:16.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, so having Jay and Smugs on there is an awesome combo. You know, I think that…00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:28.000Stuart Winchester: Indy and Doug before you, when Doug… I know Doug's still heavily involved, but the founder of the Indy Pass, Doug Fish. I think you have done a great job of building these little nodes of skiing.00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:44.000Stuart Winchester: around the country, and now around the world. So the… the donut hole has always kind of been Colorado, Utah, Tahoe, and that's because that's where Epic and Icon logically went. Those are the three biggest ski markets. But I want to talk a little bit first about the Midwest, where.00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:59.000Stuart Winchester: Indy built a really nice network, and you have a lot of ski areas in the Midwest. You have… 37. Uh, you've had some big departures this year. Lutzen, Granite Peak, and Snow River, run by Midwest Family Ski Resorts.00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:16.000Stuart Winchester: Went over to Icon, and Lutzen is, for the listeners, biggest ski area in Minnesota. It skis like a New England ski area. Granite Peak, you know, lots of high-speed lifts. Charles Skinner really turned that place from a dump into something nice. And the Snow River's on the come up. It's in a nice snow belt in Michigan.00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, you know, how much…00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:27.000Stuart Winchester: Did you see those as drivers of IndyPass sales in the Midwest? And how concerned, if at all, are you that they departed?00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:41.000Erik Mogensen: Well, look, let's… let's talk… I mean, the moose in the room here is that that… that loss sucks for us. Like, there's no way around it. Um, it… it… it's a bummer. It stings. Uh, I really like Charles Skinner. I really like Charlotte. I think they're both.00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:57.000Erik Mogensen: really great operators. They're very, very smart. They're very, very sharp. We had a we had a great call around when we kind of showed them what the revenue was in their last season, and we talked through it, and very, very amicable. I've always relied. Have some great, you know, dinner conversations with Charles.00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:12.000Erik Mogensen: And and I think they're great. They they have to make a move. They made a business decision to go to Icon and Icon makes that very, very, very attractive. You know whether or not that initial sales pitch.00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:29.000Erik Mogensen: translates into the long-term vision? I don't know. I firmly believe that, you know, Midwest skiers are some of the most authentic and purposeful, you know, skiers on the continent, and they'll figure it out. I think we have lots of options, there's no question.00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:38.000Erik Mogensen: But none of them are going to be quite like those Midwest family resorts. And so we'll have to see what happens. It stings, but I don't.00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.000Erik Mogensen: What I've really learned about Indy is that.00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:47.000Erik Mogensen: Our our strength is in the diversity of of.00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:56.000Erik Mogensen: the resorts that we've put together. It's not on a… it's not on a single one resort, or a single resort operator. Um, so…00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:01.000Erik Mogensen: I hate losing resorts, but I'm never afraid to lose them and/or replace them if necessary.00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:12.000Stuart Winchester: So, when they go to ICON, there's a couple different tiers for ICON. So, Midwest family went to the traditional 7-5 tier of 7 on full ICON, 5 on ICON base. Today.00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:19.000Stuart Winchester: I kind of announced that Cabaret, a former IndyPass partner that actually just left Indy, was a founding member in 2019.00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:32.000Stuart Winchester: left for Icon. That news just broke. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. Buck Hill similarly left Indy for Icon today, a couple of years ago. Is that too new to process, or what are your thoughts on Cabra Fact?00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I think it's exactly the same where, you know, we, we, you know, Cabrifay is a great ski area. Um, we're sad to see them go. We, you know, look, they're independent for a reason. They get to make their choice. They've made their choice. They're going to go to Icon. The consumers can make their choice of where they go and where they want to.00:34:48.000 --> 00:35:05.000Erik Mogensen: they want to spend their time and money. You know, we're going to fight as hard as we can to drive as much value for the operators and the consumers as possible. I can tell you, we had some people that had left for that icon two day product that now want to come back because of the payout.00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:22.000Erik Mogensen: Or lack thereof. So, look, none of this is static. One thing I can absolutely guarantee everybody on the pass and everyone listening to this is, is this is going to happen every single year forever. You're going to have people come, you're going to have people go. And we're all going to think it's way more consequential.00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:33.000Erik Mogensen: than it actually is. The reality is, is that indie sales for the last 7 seasons continue to go like this, and we're directing more and more.00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:39.000Erik Mogensen: revenue, meaningful revenue to these independent resorts. And that's not going to stop.00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:43.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. The, uh… another place you have…00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:45.000Stuart Winchester: Good.00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:55.000Stuart Winchester: cluster is the Pacific Northwest. Mission Ridge and Blacktail, which are jointly owned, recently announced that they left, and I reached out.00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.000Stuart Winchester: to…00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:59.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge.00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:06.000Stuart Winchester: COO and GM Matt Neubauer, and I just asked him, you know, what's going on, and this was his email, this is a quote.00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:15.000Stuart Winchester: Mission Ridge's agreement ran through the end of the 25-26 season, and we declined to seek a new one. Being independent means making the calls we think are right for the mountain long term.00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:32.000Stuart Winchester: So, that's basically echoing what you just said, the mountains will make the right decision. Uh, Blacktail's situation is different. This is a continuation of the email. Uh, they reached out to establish a new agreement before the old one ended and did not get engagement on it. Indy did reach out after passes, went back on sale September 1st, but by then, Blacktail had moved on.00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:42.000Stuart Winchester: and was preparing for the season ahead. So that was the rationale that I have for Matt. He didn't want to talk about it further publicly, but that was his on-the-record statement.00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:59.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I, I, you know, look, Stu, I, I think as good as it is for your ratings, you know, I, we're not gonna hang out every, every scary as, you know, laundry and every single conversation. Um, I would disagree with how that was had. I think, I think one of the greatest things about India is we have.00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:09.000Erik Mogensen: 300-plus resorts around the world. One of the hard things about Indy is that we have 300-plus resorts around the world. It's a lot of contracts to manage, it's a lot of things.00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:19.000Erik Mogensen: I could, like, tell you from the ski area operating, um, perspective, like, I feel everything's nice and chill all summer, and we're doing really good, and then all of a sudden it's, you know.00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:35.000Erik Mogensen: September 1st, and it's like, wow, we got a lot to do in the next 60 days before we make snow. And I think every single ski area operator runs through that. Uh, and there's a lot going back. Stu, sometimes I have to go look at your spreadsheets to understand who's on the pass.00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:52.000Erik Mogensen: That's why we usually give everything to you ahead of time so that you can, like, count them up and do the math and do everything. So it's hard. But I would say, that team at Blacktail is world class. Jesse is and is incredible. We've I've always had a great relationship with Jesse.00:37:52.000 --> 00:38:08.000Erik Mogensen: We'd welcome them on the pass. I don't think that that's changed. And I think that Blacktail and Mission Ridge are two very different ski areas. And I'm really fascinated and hopeful that they figure out a way.00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.000Erik Mogensen: how to make the whole thing work between the two of them.00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:28.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you still have a really nice set of resorts out there with White Pass, and 49 Degrees North, and Mount Hood Meadows, and Bluewood, and Brundage, and Tamarack. And Tamarack's interesting, because so Tamarack, and I want to clarify this, I've actually gotten a lot of inquiries about this, people emailing me telling me my charts are wrong.00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:43.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, which… which happens, you know, they're… they're big and… and, uh, unwieldy, so I get things wrong, but that's… they're always a work in progress. But, uh, they're telling me Tamarack's not in the past because they joined Icon today, which… which obviously they did. Uh…00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:46.000Stuart Winchester: So what's going on with Tamarack? Are they on Indy?00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:59.000Erik Mogensen: Tamarack's on Indy, um, you know, we're excited about Tamarack, we've always been excited about Tamarack. Again, Scott, really great operator, um, super smart guy, great ownership group.00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:13.000Erik Mogensen: You know, I think we could probably comment on that a little bit further. But you know my job is not to speak for these resorts, Stu. My my job is to support them, and there's a difference between supporting them and speaking for them.00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:08.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah. Okay.00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:20.000Erik Mogensen: So, I'll always support them, and what Tamarack decides to do and where they decide to sit is good, but.00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:23.000Erik Mogensen: I'm comfortable saying that Tamarack's on Indy.00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:37.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, in general, you know, when Buck Hill joined the Icon 2 Day last year, you said adios. I think that's what was my understanding from a distance, correct me if I'm wrong. What was different about the Tamarack situation? Why are you making the exception for Tamarack?00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:52.000Erik Mogensen: Look, I think, look, Icon's aggressive. They're aggressive. They're trying to add as many people as they possibly can to that two-day pass. You know, I think that there's a lot of promises on that, and I think they have a very aggressive sales team.00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:08.000Erik Mogensen: Which is which is good. They're they're, you know, trying to replicate what Indy has done. So we'll just have to see what happens. But I would say that I would I would say that, you know, I have a I have a good relationship with a couple people over in that organization.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:15.000Erik Mogensen: And I think they're trying to figure out what they're going to do. But there's no question that we're in, you know, pretty intense competition right now.00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.000Stuart Winchester: All right, let's…00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:32.000Stuart Winchester: wrap up on that. Let's talk about Snow King, because the Indy Pass, you know, part of the reason the Indy Pass is able to grow so fast, from my point of view, was Doug had this great insight that the ski areas that Epic and Icon were overlooking.00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:38.000Stuart Winchester: Did have value collected onto a pass, and when you put them all together as a dynamite product.00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:47.000Stuart Winchester: and now I think, as you said, ICON's going for that, and then you have the Snow Pass, and the Snow Pass, uh…00:40:47.000 --> 00:41:02.000Stuart Winchester: has signed Snow King as a partner, and that's a long-time Indy Pass partner, and I can read these emails if you'd like, or you can just talk through it yourself on how you see the Snow King.00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.000Stuart Winchester: um…00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:05.000Stuart Winchester: conflict here.00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:20.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, look, I wouldn't really say that there is any controversy here. I think Snow King is staying on Indy. Um, you know, Ryan and I never discussed any sort of litigation, and I connected him directly with you so that he could, you know, explain the situation for himself.00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:36.000Erik Mogensen: Look, again, it's not my job to get out in front and speak for these resorts. These are really great resorts with phenomenal and sophisticated operators, and they can speak for themselves. So, what I can do, Stu, is, you know, say, hey, Ryan.00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:43.000Erik Mogensen: you know, you're on Indy, and you're not on the snow pass, copy you on that email, and then you can read the email to the group.00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:46.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, the email…00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.000Stuart Winchester: from Ryan said.00:41:51.000 --> 00:42:06.000Stuart Winchester: Stuart, hi Stuart, this is Ryan Stanley, General Manager of Snow King. That is correct, we're going to remain on the Indy Pass this upcoming season and also offer two free tickets to the Snow Pass holders without receiving compensation, meaning Snow King will not receive compensation.00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:16.000Stuart Winchester: We are fairly desperate for some skier visits and are working on an offer for free and or $20 tickets to other pass holders as well. You know, I…00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.000Stuart Winchester: Ran this…00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:20.000Stuart Winchester: Bye.00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.000Stuart Winchester: Snow pass and.00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:26.000Stuart Winchester: I can read this email from Joe Heschen that he sent me today.00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:33.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, he said, Hi Stuart, I'm a bit confused by how this has become so complex. As stated, we have signed a signed agreement with Snow King.00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:43.000Stuart Winchester: While I would like to keep their details confidential, you are welcome to share ours. Our goal with this is not to profit, but rather to gather a group to work together for the betterment of the industry.00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:56.000Stuart Winchester: And then, it sounds like Snow King will be working with Indy and Snow Pass this season, which is great news for them. Thank you. Go Hessian. So, from Snow Pass's point of view, Snow King is still on both passes.00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:16.000Erik Mogensen: I don't know, Stu's starting to sound like a big old, you know, fun high school group text message here. I don't, I, you know, I don't know what to tell you. Um, again, I think Ryan's email's pretty clear. I'm not gonna speak for Ryan, not gonna speak for Joe. Um, they're definitely, you know, Snow King is definitely on the Indy Pass. We're definitely gonna pay them, just like we have.00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:21.000Erik Mogensen: every year. We're definitely gonna push a lot of visits to them. Um, you know, I'm not…00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:33.000Erik Mogensen: entirely sure, uh, beyond that. Uh, and, and, you know, Ryan, again, Ryan's a really smart guy. I've enjoyed talking to him. Um, I've spent a…00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:49.000Erik Mogensen: few, you know, longer phone calls, and he is desperate for skier visits, and I get that. He's a small skier area in the shadow of Jackson Hole, and doesn't have a ton of population to pull from. Most of the population that's coming through is destination visits.00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:57.000Erik Mogensen: And he needs more skier visits. We… we want Snow King to get skier visits. We… we… and if Ryan wants to comp…00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:07.000Erik Mogensen: you know, snow pass holders, or icon pass holders, or epic pass holders, then that's fine. I think that's great. But just because Ryan is going to comp.00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:18.000Erik Mogensen: the Snow Pass doesn't mean that he's on the Snow Pass, and just because Ryan is going to comp Icon Pass holders, that doesn't mean that he's joined the Icon Pass. Um, all I can come down to, again.00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:27.000Erik Mogensen: is that Snow King's on the Indy Pass, um, and from our perspective, they're giving some free tickets to some of the other passes.00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:35.000Erik Mogensen: Hopefully, that checks everyone's box for early September ski area drama.00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:43.000Stuart Winchester: All right, it is an ongoing story. I just have a lot of conflicting information from…00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:56.000Erik Mogensen: What we should do is just, you know, get Uncle Joe on the call, and get Ryan on the call, and you on the call, and we all talk about it, right? Like, I think it's… I don't think it's that complicated, and frankly, it's not that big of a deal.00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:12.000Erik Mogensen: And I question the intentions behind making it a big deal. I think that, you know, Snowpass is definitely looking for us to bite into a controversy, and we're just not going to.00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:22.000Erik Mogensen: We're just not going to. We… our job is to focus on the independent resorts and make sure that we drive more visits to more independent resorts.00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.000Erik Mogensen: more often.00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:31.000Erik Mogensen: It's really simple, you know, and I think, I think in general too, Stu, like, you know.00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.000Stuart Winchester: Do you? Yeah.00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:46.000Erik Mogensen: What I've gotten from a lot of our operators and partners and people in skiing is they're just very confused by this. And again, it might be good for ratings or listeners, but there is no litigation here.00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:56.000Erik Mogensen: there is no problem with Snow King. They're a great, valued partner. You know, this comment, you know, an idea around democratizing skiing, right? Like.00:45:56.000 --> 00:46:08.000Erik Mogensen: you know, let's let every resort build their own reciprocal deal with, you know, Jersey Joe's commission-based software pitch, right? That's cute, that sounds nice, but in practice, IndiePass exists for a reason.00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.000Erik Mogensen: It's a lot more work for skier is and most importantly.00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:20.000Erik Mogensen: It's much more fragmented and a confusing product for the consumer. A single pass with a single price point.00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:22.000Erik Mogensen: And a lot of partners.00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:28.000Erik Mogensen: you know, mitigates the patchwork of one-off deals, and that's the whole reason IndyPass exists.00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:37.000Erik Mogensen: More people skiing more often at independent resorts, right? Like, we redirect tens of millions of dollars a year to independent operators.00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:48.000Erik Mogensen: Arguing that somehow the absence of the IndyPass is better for the industry is nonsensical at best. It would just give Icon and Epic a more…00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.000Erik Mogensen: More opportunity to eat our lunch. So…00:46:51.000 --> 00:47:02.000Erik Mogensen: you know, we can… we can dive into all the muddy details all day long, but I don't see any controversy here. We're super excited to have snowpack… I mean…00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.000Erik Mogensen: Snow King.00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:15.000Erik Mogensen: on the Indy Pass. Um, and, you know, maybe you just have to come up with a different color for it on your spreadsheet, like some sort of gradient between the two. Whatever you want to do, we trust you.00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:32.000Stuart Winchester: Let me zoom out a little and make this a little more conceptual, because you've told me before that IndyPass doesn't make money, and I believe you're still sticking to Doug's original ratio of 15% for admin, which I doubt covers admin. So 85% traditionally was paid out to the resorts, correct?00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:49.000Erik Mogensen: Correct. Oh, yeah. Still the case. Yeah. No, I mean, look, we, we, you know, 85% of every passport just goes back to the independents. And remember, look, we, we take 100% of our money in on credit cards. We pay the ski resorts in check cash. Right. So we're also eating that credit card fee.00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:36.000Stuart Winchester: Is that still it? Okay.00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:41.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:59.000Erik Mogensen: So now you're down to, you know, 12% in change. Running a pass like this, it's not profitable. We never looked at this as being profitable.00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:53.000Stuart Winchester: Right.00:47:59.000 --> 00:48:10.000Erik Mogensen: I really bought IndyPass because I knew that Doug was going to exit and needed to exit, and I thought some of the other people that would buy the pass.00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:21.000Erik Mogensen: would view it more as a media company or a marketing opportunity, and less of something that I think is very important for the independents. So…00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:39.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, you know, Snowpass has committed to giving 80% back, um, to the resorts in their first year, and then something else beyond that, right? And the difference between 80% and 5%, right? You know, it sounds like 5%, but if you actually do the math, that's a 25% difference.00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:49.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, and so we pay every resort the same percentage back of their, you know, top ticket price. We've always done that, um, so…00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:55.000Erik Mogensen: That's what we do, that's what we've done, that's what worked, and that's what we.00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:59.000Stuart Winchester: So to zoom out to the conceptual level a little bit here, I want to look at…00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:09.000Stuart Winchester: Snow King's neighbor, Jackson Hole. Okay, so Jackson Hole is on Icon. They're also on Mountain Collective. You've taken a pretty firm stand that Indy.00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:16.000Stuart Winchester: partners should be exclusive with Indy. If you're looking at a ski area like Snow King that is desperate for.00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.000Stuart Winchester: for visits.00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:24.000Stuart Winchester: why cut that pathway off? Why is it important to make indie exclusive and not say, okay.00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:39.000Stuart Winchester: case by case, if you're, uh, you know, certain resorts, if we don't have an exclusivity agreement with you, like, maybe you want to give, you know, Brundage a higher payout because they're a destination and… and to be exclusive, but maybe some of these other ones, you give them all the tools in the toolbox. What…00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:42.000Stuart Winchester: Why is that not an option? Or is it an option?00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:48.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I just, I think it complicates things, number one. Number two, I just don't find it very equitable. The great thing about IndyPass, look, I get…00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:58.000Erik Mogensen: There's a lot of conversations all the time when we have a larger resort wanting to join, or has joined, or wants to renew about getting a bigger payout.00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:08.000Erik Mogensen: What I can tell you for as long as I own and run IndyPass, I'm going to treat every single resort the same. I'm not going to make special side deals.00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:14.000Erik Mogensen: That's just what we're going to do. I think it's a mistake to do that.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:20.000Erik Mogensen: Everyone's going to get the same. Everyone's going to be the same. Everyone's going to get the same percentage payout.00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:15.000Stuart Winchester: It.00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:17.000Stuart Winchester: Mmhm.00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:23.000Erik Mogensen: No special deals.00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:37.000Stuart Winchester: So let me wrap on that point. So you added Smugs, your New England network is lights out. You know, like I said, Jay, Smugs, Cannon, Waterville, Saddleback, and a bunch of smaller places, including Black Mountain. Doug was concerned when he started the pass.00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:48.000Stuart Winchester: About dilution in the marketplace, and if you put too many ski areas in a market, you would both cannibalize their season pass, and drive down their yield, or their eventual payout.00:50:49.000 --> 00:51:04.000Stuart Winchester: you have filled in a lot more density, and when I've asked you about it in the past, you said that's a data-driven decision, so can you break that down for us, and what gives you confidence that adding smugs is not going to take away from.00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:08.000Stuart Winchester: Fulton Valley, or Jay Peak, or Cannon, or Titus.00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:23.000Erik Mogensen: Well, we know exactly how many pass holders we're adding every single year, right? We, we have a unique control over how many passes we sell, right? So we have, we know the data that comes in on one lever and we 100% control the amount.00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:12.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:43.000Erik Mogensen: of passes in that lever that we sell. So it's just simple math, right? It isn't even that complex of a spreadsheet. Uh, you wouldn't even have to have it in a spreadsheet. So we need to add enough customers to make sure that we don't over dilute Bolton's payout or those things. And what's remarkable is the data shows us this is, I think now our fourth season.00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:49.000Erik Mogensen: of owning and operating the IndyPass is that we just keep going in the right direction.00:51:49.000 --> 00:52:04.000Erik Mogensen: And that's the reality. Like, JPEAK and Bolton's payout, the check that they get from IndyPass and take to the bank to pay their bills and buy more chairlifts and more snowmaking pipe and pay their employees, is only getting bigger and bigger.00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.000Erik Mogensen: With smugs on the pass. And again, I cannot.00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:23.000Erik Mogensen: reiterate enough how sophisticated of an operator these guys are. Like, the DeLauriers are smart. They see the numbers, you know? Christian Knapp at PGRI, he sees the numbers. Steve Wright, these are smart guys. John Schaefer, the…00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:27.000Erik Mogensen: Really smart. You know, if they figure it out.00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:30.000Erik Mogensen: I think that that itself.00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:38.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, Jay has been, uh, has recommitted to Indy several times, uh, through one-year contracts. All right, Eric, IndyPass is still on sale?00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:56.000Erik Mogensen: Uh, 80 Pass is on sale right now, yes. I think what we've announced is we've said tomorrow's the day. I think we could go into midday Saturday. Um, it's… it's hard to tell, right? We look at a couple numbers, we look at people that have put things in their cart, and what the potential conversion rate is, and where things go, and…00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:01.000Erik Mogensen: the geography around them. We definitely have a very firm ceiling on what we're gonna sell.00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:10.000Erik Mogensen: When we're going to sell that through, that's the hard part. But yeah, we've identified that tomorrow's the day.00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:16.000Stuart Winchester: And this will be the end of 26-27 IndyPass sales guaranteed, or is there a chance for a flash December sale or something?00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:30.000Erik Mogensen: There is never a guarantee of anything in this thing. We are talking to some pretty major additions as well that I think would be meaningful, and we'll have to decide if that's a this year thing or a next year thing with them.00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:20.000Stuart Winchester: Okay.00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:46.000Stuart Winchester: I mean, you've already added over 40 new partners. India has more partners than Epic, Icon, Mountain Collective, Snowpass, and Mountain Collective Capital's Powerpass combined around the world. So you're saying we should expect or could expect more partners?00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:32.000Erik Mogensen: Alright.00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:49.000Stuart Winchester: In advance of the 26-27 winter?00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:02.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can tell you that there will definitely be some more. And I think, Stu, it's actually about 60 new additions. And I know you don't like to count the cross-country ski areas, but we should maybe find a separate tab for them on the spreadsheet.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:04.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah.00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:12.000Erik Mogensen: Every ski area matters to us here, whether it's cross country or downhill or big or small. I think that's what makes us different.00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:27.000Stuart Winchester: Yeah, you know, I didn't start stop counting them out of malice. I stopped because I couldn't really understand them, and the maps kind of looked like a brain scan, and some would leave, and it was just a lot. I was already trying to track too much.00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:44.000Stuart Winchester: I will take that piece of advice, though, and I will see if I can find a place where they make sense. Eric, really appreciate everything today, appreciate everything you're doing with Indy and Black Mountain, and look forward to catching up with you again really soon.00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:49.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah. Thanks so much, Stu. Keep those spreadsheets going, dude.00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:47.000Stuart Winchester: Alright.00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.000Stuart Winchester: That's all I do.00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:52.000Erik Mogensen: Yeah, I know. See ya.00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.000Stuart Winchester: All right, take care.00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:53.000Erik Mogensen: Bye.00:54:55.000 --> 00:55:05.000Stuart Winchester: All right, that was Eric Mogensen, director of IndyPass, owner of Black Mountain, responding to some of the questions.00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:21.000Stuart Winchester: initial conversation I had with Joe Heschen the other day. So, uh, that's great. We have no more clarity on Snow King, and this episode went a little off the rails, because I need to… there's gonna be a lot of experimentation here, guys.00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:35.000Stuart Winchester: Uh, the… the opening take, I'm realizing, I don't know if I should be recording that before the guest. I think maybe I need to start with the guest, because otherwise, I end up having to cut myself short. So…00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.000Stuart Winchester: I want to get to some reader reaction.00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.000Stuart Winchester: To close us out today.00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:44.000Stuart Winchester: And…00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:47.000Stuart Winchester: The first comes from…00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:49.000Stuart Winchester: Matt Hart.00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:03.000Stuart Winchester: He said, really, this is in reaction to Brian Norton's interview yesterday about Loon Mountain's expansion. Matt Hart, really good, loved Brian's description of the expansion and how they will make it work from an operations point of view.00:56:03.000 --> 00:56:06.000Stuart Winchester: Catcher's mitt for snow, love it.00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:21.000Stuart Winchester: And then, and then Matt asks, did he give you grief for calling the Timbertown expansion that little one LOL? I, no, he didn't, but, but it is, I mean, it was a 30 acre expansion on a huge ski area. So, uh, I don't know, maybe, I think they, uh.00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:36.000Stuart Winchester: you know, I'm always the tourist, so anytime I'm asking these guys anything, they… I think that it sounds a little ridiculous, because they live it every day of their life. It would be like them asking me a question about my cats, you know, it's something that I'm around every day.00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:46.000Stuart Winchester: All right, this is a comment from Robert, a paid subscriber, which is the way you can interact with the show is to be a paid subscriber to the Storm Skiing Podcast.00:56:46.000 --> 00:57:00.000Stuart Winchester: Robert says, again, of the Brian Norton pod yesterday, great second effort. Are you planning to stick to a drop time of about 4 p.m. Eastern time? What is your anticipated schedule? Daily, four days a week, three?00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:07.000Stuart Winchester: 4pm drop makes for a nice way to wrap up the day, at least for those in a compatible time zone.00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:22.000Stuart Winchester: And then Brian Bench, paid subscriber, says, ditto on sharing the anticipated schedule. We humans are creatures of habit, and so would be great to know when we can generally expect these to land. Excited for your chat with Eric today. Well…00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:23.000Stuart Winchester: Brian.00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:26.000Stuart Winchester: I have an amazing guest.00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.000Stuart Winchester: scheduled for…00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:46.000Stuart Winchester: Sep

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Everyone wants more reach. Almost no one has decided who they're reaching — or what they'd say once they got there. Here's what I want you to hear in this one. Kristian Downer can do something remarkable: put your face in front of a named list of the exact people you want to work with — by company, by job title, by seniority — for a fraction of what LinkedIn ads used to cost. But listen to what he keeps circling back to. Not once does the targeting come first. Every single time it's who are you for, what's the pain you solve, what's the one message worth carrying — and only then, the tactic. The ad is the last mile, never the first move. That's architecture before action, and this episode is a masterclass in it — taught, unusually, by the person whose whole craft is the action. What You'll Walk Away With How to be seen by the exact people who could buy from you — without shouting into the void Why "post more, post faster" is almost never the answer, and what to build instead The four-to-six-week on-ramp that turns your best organic posts into targeted reach What "not generic" actually means when you define an audience — and why it's the whole game The follow-through most people skip — and why the ad only opens the door, it doesn't close the deal Where a tactic like this sits inside the whole: architecture first, action second In This Episode I've watched people chase visibility for years — more posts, more platforms, more noise — hoping reach alone will do the work. It won't. The reason this conversation lands is that Kristian, who could sell you the tactic all day, keeps handing the credit back to the thing underneath it. He walks through Thought Leadership Ads — the ones that run from your personal profile, your face and your voice, not the company page — and shows how a modest, tightly targeted spend can put you in front of the right people again and again until you're the obvious choice. The proof is concrete. He describes a campaign built to reach the people inside one single company — the eight thousand who work at Network Rail — with one clear set of work-winning messages, so that by the time the meeting came around, the room already knew them. He talks about cutting his own network from eleven thousand connections down to five, because a tight audience beats a big one. He's honest about the part nobody sells you: the human follow-through after the ad does its job. As he puts it, "it's not about reach. It's about impact." And that's the whole architecture-before-action point, spoken by someone standing inside the action. The tool will carry your message to exactly who you choose. It can't choose for you. That part is already yours to build — and once it's built, a tactic like this stops being noise and starts being leverage. This one's for listening the whole way through. Press play. Chapters 00:00 — "We see you everywhere" — the goal in one line 01:04 — When "Auntie Nellie and Uncle Joe" run out 03:06 — What actually drew Kristian to LinkedIn 06:00 — Why LinkedIn — and the end of vanity metrics 08:53 — Why small businesses stayed away — and what changed 09:43 — The profile baseline that makes you findable 11:03 — Why he cut 5,000 connections 12:45 — The connection request nobody follows up 16:30 — Thought Leader Ads: the £250 door that used to cost £5k 18:31 — Getting specific enough to make it pay 21:51 — Better content, not more content 22:56 — What happens next: the follow-through most people skip 25:31 — The Network Rail campaign 26:52 — If you started today: the four-to-six-week on-ramp 29:33 — What "not generic" actually means 34:26 — The one thing to walk away with About the Guest Kristian Downer is a LinkedIn strategist and LinkedIn Ads specialist, and the founder of DowSocial. He began as a generalist social media consultant and has spent years — the bulk of his work now in B2B — helping organisations from small consultancies to multi-billion-pound companies reach niche professional audiences on LinkedIn. He's especially known for making Thought Leader Ads work for smaller businesses, not just enterprise budgets. Get his LinkedIn Thought Leader Ads Framework — a free, step-by-step download: https://www.dowsocial.com/linkedin-thought-leader-ads-framework/ DowSocial: https://www.dowsocial.com/ Connect with Kristian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristian-downer/ About Finola I'm Finola Howard — host of Your Truth Shared and founder of How Great Marketing Works. I help purpose-led entrepreneurs build success as they define it, by connecting the parts of their business — their marketing, their business, and themselves — into one whole they can finally see. Subscribe to the show and never miss the episode that connects it for you. Subscribe Subscribe to Your Truth Shared and hear the truth behind success — made whole, every week.

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(00:00:00) Opening (00:01:09) Vacation Week Stupidity (00:55:56) Insane Week In Review (01:08:13) Genius Awards (01:18:07) Closing There's always someone for everyone and a Goth couple found the perfect place to wed each other...in front of a blooming "Corpse Flower". US Senator Chuck Schumer found the perfect place to let one rip...live on C-SPAN as he was "ripping" on the President. A lady in need of a new wallet found just what she was looking for at a second-hand store...including the remains of Uncle Joe...right behind the credit card slots. You won't find my Insane FL Nephew with me this week...and you won't find me either because even though stupidity never takes a vacation, I do. So, you're getting the BONUS stupidity that's reserved for the Midweek in place of the regular episode. But don't worry...we'll all be back next week!In this Vacation Week Episode...Huge Mass Inside A Woman's Stomach Was DISSOLVED By Diet CokeTN Couple Arrested After Dollar General Robbery Turns Into Employee Appreciation EventFL Man Calls Police About A 1987 Murder—Then Gets Arrested for ItA Live Squirrel Was Mailed to Meta Offices In Thailand—Chaos EnsuesFL Woman Inhales Laughing Gas—Refuses To Leave Rideshare—So Driver Drops Her Off At The Police BarracksMuseum Covers Floor In 800-lbs. Of Peanut Butter Honoring Dutch ArtistCrazy Naked man jailed after a PA apartment hallway outburst82-y/o NC Woman Survives 9 Days Trapped In A Bathtub After FallingIndiana Zoo Exhibit Cleared After “Wile E. Wildebeest” EscapesA Hungry Connecticut Snack-Grabber Grounds Airline Flight From NYLuxury Grocery Store Erewhon Announces $12 Cup of 'Sacred Water'Illinois Man's Date Goes Viral Because She Wants $120 Pedicure!Wallet Purchased By NC Woman Found To Have HUMAN ASHES InsideOntario Provincial Police Remind Public: Don't Bring Grenades To The StationOnly in FL Will A Restaurant Accept Pythons As Payment For PizzaFL Man Arrested After Getting Upset That No One Would Pet His Dog–Or HIMChuck Schumer Rips a Fart While “Ripping” On Trump on the Senate FloorFL Woman Gets X-Rated New License Plate–SQZ A55–But DO NOT Try to SQZ Her A55!Southern CA Goth Couple Marries In Front Of The Corpse FlowerHumanoid Robots Get Married In Moscow LibraryNatural Light Unveils The CoolShed For Backyard Beer DrinkersAnd as part of this week's Vacation Episode, you'll be updated on the stupidity in the latest current events with the Insane Week In Review and meed our 7 stupendous "winners" for this week's Genius Awards!Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/insane-erik-lane-s-stupid-world--6486112/support.Real-time updates and story links are found on the TELEGRAM Channel at: https://t.me/InsaneErikLane  (Theme song courtesy of Randy Stonehill, ”It's A Great Big Stupid World”. Copyright ©1992 Stonehillian Music/Word Music/Twitchin' Vibes Music/ASCAP) Order your copy on the Wonderama CD from Amazon!This episode includes AI-generated content.

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Glocks.....Inspectors.....Books....

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In this episode, Larry and Uncle Joe tackle one of the most relatable questions any sports dad has ever asked — what do you do when the environment your kid is playing in is toxic, and it's breaking his spirit? The question comes from Mike — a dad of two boys whose 11-year-old has recently had his love for baseball crushed by the culture of travel sports. The kid is now telling himself he's not good enough and that quitting is the answer. Mike is doing the work, modeling emotional regulation at home, and feeling like an imposter because none of it seems to be helping. Larry shares his own story of pushing his son too hard in wrestling, learning to let him lead, and watching him play football for ten years before deciding on his own to walk away. Joe drops an ancient Chinese archery proverb that reframes the entire conversation — and explains why the need to win literally drains a kid of every skill he has. Alliance member Calvin adds a coach's perspective on getting to the root of what's really going on with your son. This is a short, punchy, deeply practical episode that every sports dad needs to hear — especially if you've ever wondered whether the investment of time and money in travel sports is actually worth it.   Timeline Summary [0:00] Introduction to the Dad Edge mission and the movement to raise leaders of families and communities [1:02] Mike's question: my 11-year-old's spirit is being broken by travel baseball's toxic culture — what do I do? [3:47] Larry's wrestling story — getting excited about a scholarship, pushing too hard, and learning to follow his son's lead [6:26] Dr. John Delany's take: travel sports is ruining the dinner table of the American family [7:37] The stats — only 1.5% of kids who play youth sports will play in college [9:03] How kids start attaching their identity to their performance — and why that's dangerous [11:47] Whatever you start, you finish — the Hagner family rule and why it matters [12:32] The hockey coach who got kicked out of games three times — and the son who never played hockey again [13:41] 82% of kids quit a sport because of the coach — not the sport itself [15:33] Joe's ancient Chinese archery proverb — when an archer shoots for nothing, he has all of his skill [16:39] Why travel ball brings out the worst in parents — the lottery mindset and the toxicity that follows [17:12] If you play for somebody else's approval, you play half the game you would have played [17:45] Be the anti-venom — how to show up as the most positive presence in the stands [20:25] Calvin's perspective — get down to his level, ask the real questions, and watch how he shows up at practice [22:14] Mike's takeaway — finish the season, support his decision, and help him find his football whatever that looks like   Five Key Takeaways Only 1.5% of kids who play youth sports will play in college. Before you invest five figures a year in travel sports, ask yourself who this is really for — your kid or you. When a child's identity gets attached to their performance, and the environment around them is relentless and critical, they don't just quit the sport — they start believing they aren't good enough at life. Whatever you start, you finish. Let your kid know you support whatever they decide when the season is done — but the commitment they made to the team matters and they're going to honor it. The need to win drains a player of every skill they have. When a kid stops playing for the love of it and starts playing for approval, they play half the game they're capable of. You can't insulate your kids from toxic environments — but you can be the anti-venom. Be the most positive person in those stands, speak life into every kid, and let your son see what that looks like.   Links & Resources Dad Edge Alliance: https://thedadedge.com/alliance Dad Edge Business Boardroom: https://thedadedge.com/boardroom Dad Edge Youth Sports Resources: https://thedadedge.com/tag/youth-sports/ Dad Edge Youth Athletics Resources: https://thedadedge.com/tag/youth-athletics/ Using Sports to Strengthen Father-Child Bonds: https://thedadedge.com/using-sports-to-strengthen-father-child-bonds-life-lessons Coaching Kids: https://thedadedge.com/coaching-kids/ Greg Olsen Episode — Marriage Under Pressure: https://thedadedge.com/marriage-under-pressure-weathering-lifes-hardest-storms-featuring-greg-olsen/ How to Build a Non-Anxious Life by Dr. John Delony: Available on Amazon Episode Link & Resources (Episode 1477): https://thedadedge.com/1477   Closing If there's one message from this episode that stands out, it's this: the goal of youth sports was never the scholarship — it was the lesson. The kids who look back and love what sports gave them aren't the ones who made it to college or the pros. They're the ones who had a coach who believed in them, a parent who cheered for effort instead of outcomes, and a teammate who made them laugh on the bench eating Big League Chew. Be the anti-venom. Finish the season. And let your kid find their football. Go out and live legendary.

Uncle Joe & Solo are back as they discuss should Wemby have been suspended, JJ losing lockeroom again, today's best bets & much more!

In this exciting episode of the HVAC Uncensored Podcast, Gil talks with Uncle Joe. Joe Crisara (often referred to as "Uncle Joe") is a renowned HVAC sales educator, author, and owner of ServiceMVP, specializing in "pure motive selling" and contracting business growth. With over 40 years of experience, he teaches contractors how to increase conversion rates and build trust through ethical, choice-based sales. Key details about Joe Crisara's HVAC focus: Expertise: He is a recognized sales educator and mentor in the home services industry (HVAC, plumbing, electrical). Approach: Focuses on helping contractors move away from high-pressure sales towards a model that provides homeowners with options, fostering trust and respect. Resources: Author of "What Should We Do?" and founder of contractorselling.com, providing weekly, live, virtual sales training for technicians and comfort advisors. Background: Overcame early business failures to build a profitable contracting company before pivoting to coaching  I am so looking forward to catching up with him; it has been a little while since he last appeared on the show. Come hang out, it's always fun and tons of knowledge whenever Uncle Joe is around.                 =====Don't Forget To Follow The Podcast On Social Media To Stay Up To Date=======       The easiest way to find all links is to go to https://www.hvacuncensored.com or https://www.poplme.co/hvacuncensored       *****Please Show Some Love To The Amazing Show Sponsors/Partners*******       YELLOW JACKET    https://www.yellowjacket.com    COMPANYCAM   https://www.companycam.com/hvacuncensored   GET A FREE 14-DAY TRIAL, THEN 50% OFF YOUR FIRST 2 MONTHS    HVAC TACTICAL    https://www.hvactactical.com   USE DISCOUNT CODE (HVACUNCENSORED) & SAVE 20% ON YOUR ORDER   HOUSECALL PRO   https://www.housecallpro.com/hvac-uncensored/   VETO PRO PAC   https://www.vetopropac.com/   HOMEPROS   https://www.readhomepros.com   CAMEL CITY MILL    https://www.camelcitymill.com/UNCENSORED10     USE DISCOUNT CODE (UNCENSORED10) & SAVE 10% ON YOUR ORDER   LOKAL   https://www.lokalhq.com                               FIND ALL HVAC UNCENSORED MERCH AT https://www.hvacuncensored.com/

“There's no place on the planet, and I mean that, that loves my dad the way that Detroit does.” Joyce Barrow-Henderson, daughter of boxing legend and Detroit champion Joe Louis, brings warmth, history, and family truth to Detroit is Different as she prepares for the Joe Louis Greenway Partnership birthday celebration honoring her father on Saturday, July 23, 2026, at 10am at the Warren Trailhead, 7241 McDonald, Detroit, MI 48210. In this powerful conversation, Joyce shares why Detroit's love for Joe Louis still feels personal, saying here he is not distant history—he is “Uncle Joe.” She opens up about the Joe Louis Foundation's mission, rooted in his “kindness,” “generosity,” education, and community connection. The interview moves beyond the boxing ring into Joe Louis' impact on Black Detroit business, culture, sports, and pride—from Brewster Recreation Center to Black Bottom, Flame Show Bar, golf, horses, family, and the doors he opened for others. Joyce reminds us, “If you think he was a great boxer, he was an even greater daddy.” This episode connects Detroit's past and future through legacy, land, love, and community memory. Detroit is Different is a podcast hosted by Khary Frazier covering people adding to the culture of an American Classic city. Visit www.detroitisdifferent.com to hear, see and experience more of what makes Detroit different. Follow, like, share, and subscribe to the Podcast on iTunes, Google Play, and Sticher. Comment, suggest and connect with the podcast by emailing info@detroitisdifferent.com Find out more at https://detroit-is-different.pinecast.co

In this episode, Larry and Uncle Joe are back for another live Wednesday Q&A with real men from the Dad Edge Alliance — and this one hits on two of the most common struggles we hear from men: a marriage in repair mode that's sending confusing signals, and a hot-tempered nine-year-old that nobody knows how to reach. The first question comes from Jimmy — a man whose wife gave him a 90-day ultimatum, who has been doing the work, and who is now completely confused by what's happening. She's been affectionate. Then she's not. Then she pulls back and says no more physical contact. Is it over? Should he give up? Joe and Larry speak into this with the kind of wisdom that only comes from having lived it — including Joe's own experience with physical contact happening and then the wall going right back up, and Larry's stock market analogy that every man in a marriage repair season needs to hear. The second question comes from Mark — a teacher and dad of three whose nine-year-old middle child has a hair-trigger temper that seems to come out of nowhere. Joe drops one of the most memorable pieces of wisdom this show has ever heard about what anger in a young boy actually means, what's running underneath it, and how to find the magma before it erupts. Larry adds his own raw, honest story about his ten-year-old Colton — a family meeting he called, the guilt he took full ownership of, and what it means when the softest voice in your family has to fight just to be heard. Joe closes with a Solomon quote that stops the whole room cold.   Timeline Summary [0:00] Introduction to the Dad Edge mission and the movement to raise leaders of families and communities [1:02] Larry and Joe open the Q&A — May is here, and the Alliance Bible study group gets a shoutout [5:28] Jimmy's question: my wife gave me a 90-day ultimatum, I've been doing the work, she's been affectionate — then suddenly pulled back and said no more physical contact. Is it over? [8:59] Joe's answer: she doesn't feel safe yet — the narrative justifying the divorce is still running, and physical contact is cracking it open in a way that terrifies her [11:47] The mistake Joe made — trying to use physical contact to manipulate the situation back to his side [13:18] It ain't over until you say you're done trying — Joe's message to Jimmy [16:23] Larry's answer: the EKG pattern — she softens, pulls back, softens, pulls back. This is not failure. This is repair. [18:00] The stock market analogy — marriage repair is not a straight line, and the only thing that crashes it is when the man stops doing the work [21:47] Have the clarifying conversation — if you initiate, what do you want from me? Get clear so the lines stop getting blurred [24:49] Do the work for you, not for her — and don't be needy. That standoffish groundedness is what actually draws her back. [27:45] Core values as a filter — Awesome's answer on staying congruent when everything feels chaotic [30:15] Mark's question: my nine-year-old middle child has an explosive temper and I don't know how to reach him [33:24] Joe's answer: middle kids often don't feel seen or heard — and a hot temper at nine means there is a river of rage running just under the surface. Find out what's feeding it. [35:47] What drove Joe's youngest son's anger — self-image struggles and the "am I good enough" question that lives in every boy [37:15] Larry's answer: go in soft, go in curious, and do it shoulder to shoulder — not nose to nose [39:10] The family meeting Larry called about Colton — taking full ownership and asking everyone to do better [42:04] Colton is the softest voice in the family and he's always fighting to be heard — and that has to change [45:07] Joe drops Solomon — the power of life and death is in the tongue. Speak the behavior you want to see. [47:33] The 45-second greeting rule — and why how you welcome your kid home sets the tone for everything that follows   Five Key Takeaways Marriage repair is not a straight line — it's the stock market. She will soften and pull back over and over. The only thing that crashes it is when you stop doing the work. If she says no physical contact, have the clarifying conversation. Honor her request — and ask what happens if she initiates. Getting clarity is not weakness. It's leadership. Do the work for you, not for her. The groundedness of a man who keeps growing regardless of her response is one of the most attractive things a woman can witness. A hot temper in a young boy is never just a temper. There is something running underneath it — usually tied to self-image, feeling unseen, or something happening at school that he doesn't have the words to explain yet. The power of life and death is in the tongue. If you want a certain behavior out of somebody — speak that behavior into them. Your words become self-fulfilling prophecies.   Links & Resources Dad Edge Alliance: https://thedadedge.com/alliance No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover: Available on Amazon Episode Link & Resources (Episode 1474): https://thedadedge.com/1474   Closing If there's one message from this episode that stands out, it's this: the softest voice in your family deserves to be heard — and the words you speak over your kids and your wife are either building something or tearing it down. Joe said it best. Solomon said it first. The power of life and death is in the tongue. Speak the behavior you want to see. Speak life into the people who need it most. And if you're Jimmy right now — don't give up. It ain't over until you say it is. Go out and live legendary.

Uncle Joe & Solo are BACK! Apologies for the episodes we weren't able to upload, but they are available on YouTube and the problem has been corrected going forward. We give out our best plays for May 6th, discuss Caleb Williams shooting his shot, my son doesn't throw food on the floor anymore and much more! Tune in & subscribe.

In this episode, Larry and Uncle Joe are back for another live Q&A with real men from the Dad Edge Alliance bringing their real questions. This one goes deep — and fast. The first question comes from a man walking through divorce he didn't want, trying to reconcile his faith with a marriage that's falling apart. Joe has lived this exact story — fasting, praying, sleeping in a separate bedroom for 18 months, doing everything he could — and speaks into it with the kind of wisdom that only comes from having actually been there. Larry adds his own perspective, including the heartbreaking story of losing a son to trisomy 13, and what he learned about God's ability to redeem even the worst seasons of life. The second question comes from Shepherd — a man who is newly divorced, in a new relationship seven months in with a wonderful woman of faith, but feeling the friction of competing priorities: his kids, her desire to be put first, a potential reverse vasectomy, and the nagging question of whether this is really the right person. Joe and Larry both weigh in with hard, loving, and deeply honest answers — including Joe's own cautionary tale about getting into a relationship too fast after a divorce, and the painful price his kids paid because of it. This is one of those Q&A episodes where every man in the audience will see himself in at least one of these questions.   Timeline Summary [0:00] Introduction to the Dad Edge mission and the movement to raise leaders of families and communities [1:02] Welcome to the Q&A — and a quick shoutout to the new Dad Edge shop [2:15] Question 1 — Anonymous: I'm a Christian going through a divorce I didn't want. My wife is a strong believer too. I need guidance. [2:34] Joe's answer: his own experience going through divorce as a believer, sleeping in a separate bedroom for 18 months, and what he learned [4:10] Being a follower of Christ and being a mature follower of Christ are two completely different things [5:37] Seeking the one with your two — how Joe and Ivy operate their marriage around loyalty to Christ first [6:50] The A plus B equals C equation with God — and why that theology will wreck you [7:37] What Joe would do differently: stop panicking, stop pushing, and focus on maturing as a man [10:01] Larry's perspective: it's okay to be angry with God — Father Stephen Gadberry on The Sean Ryan Show [13:11] God removes things we think are good for us — and sometimes this is a preparation for something better [14:39] Larry's story: losing a son to trisomy 13 in 2014, the decision to keep the baby, and the stillbirth at 22 weeks [17:33] Standing in that bathroom, looking up, and asking God why — and what came out of that season [18:00] Joe's response: our father redeems everything — even the worst stuff [19:39] Joe's own three marriages — and how God used all of it [20:08] Living a life you don't deserve — Joe's reflection on grace, mercy, and what he gets to enjoy today [21:28] Joe shares a personal health challenge he's currently walking through — and why his mercies being new every morning is not just a saying [23:21] Question 2 — Shepherd: I'm seven months into a new relationship after divorce. She wants to be put first over my kids. I'm at a crossroads. [28:13] Joe's answer: she doesn't have kids, so there's a disconnect — and until there's a covenant, your kids come first [29:58] The conversation you need to have now — not after you say I do [31:09] How Joe met Ivy — determined never to remarry, then God showed up anyway [32:23] Larry's take: know your non-negotiables before you go further — and be honest about what they are [35:08] This is what you signed up for — and if you love me, this is the way it's going to be [36:17] Joe's red flags: she's pushing for the covenant before it's time, and the reverse vasectomy conversation deserves serious prayer [37:18] Joe's cautionary tale: getting into a relationship too fast after divorce — and the price his kids paid [40:11] His kids paid a high price for his lack of wisdom — proceed with caution, pray first [41:04] There's wisdom in many counselors — and the value of having brothers who aren't afraid to call out your blind spots   Five Key Takeaways Being a follower of Christ and being a mature follower are two different things. Maturity in faith means loyalty to the covenant even when feelings don't support it. God doesn't owe you C just because you did A and B. The A plus B equals C equation with God will wreck you. His heart for you is good — even when life isn't. It's okay to be angry at God. Tell him. He already knows. And he meets us in our deepest, most honest emotions — not in the polished version. When you're newly divorced and entering a new relationship, proceed with caution. Get into your kids, get into your faith, and make sure your inside world is where it needs to be before you attach to someone new. Know your non-negotiables before you go further in any relationship — and have the hard conversations now, not after you say I do.   Links & Resources Dad Edge Alliance & Business Boardroom: https://thedadedge.com/mastermind The Men's Forge: https://themensforge.com Dad Edge Shop: https://thedadedge.com/shop Father Stephen Gadberry on The Sean Ryan Show — search on YouTube Episode Link & Resources (Episode 1462): https://thedadedge.com/1462   Closing If there's one message from this episode that stands out, it's this: God redeems everything — even the stuff that feels like it's destroying you right now. Joe went through divorce as a believer, three times, watching his kids pay a price for his lack of wisdom. Larry stood in a bathroom watching his son be born still, looking up and asking why. And both of them are sitting here today telling you it gets better — not because life got easier, but because God's mercies are new every morning and all things really does mean all things. If you're in a dark season right now, don't go through it alone. Lean into the brothers around you and let them speak into your blind spots. Go out and live legendary.

Uncle Joe & Solo are back as they down give out their best bets. They also discuss no child left behind, Geno Auriemma, Blue Jays look terrible and much more! Tune in & subscribe.

Uncle Joe & Solo are back for episode two! Two dads that sit down and discuss the betting card for the day. Through humor and informal dialogue, they'll discuss March Madness, Tiger Woods, bullying and much more!

Uncle Joe & Solo drop their first official episode! Two Dads that sit down and discuss the betting card for the day. Through humor and informal dialogue, they navigate trying to pick winners in between changing diapers. Listen in for their plays of the day compiled with parental advice. Don't forget to subscribe!

In this episode, I'm joined by my co-host Uncle Joe for one of our live Q&A sessions — where real men from the Dad Edge Alliance bring their real questions, and we do our best to give them real, honest answers. This one covers a lot of ground. We open with a powerful question from Rich — a man who spent nearly 30 years as an agnostic, gave his life to Christ six months ago, and now wants to know how to lead his 11 kids toward faith without forcing it on them. Joe brings wisdom from his own walk, and I share a deeply personal story about going to church with my son Ethan — how one pastor's offhand comment cracked something open in me, and how an honest, vulnerable conversation in a car changed the entire trajectory of my relationship with my son around faith. The second question is one that hits close to home for a lot of men in this community: when things have been bad in your marriage for a long time and you finally start getting wins — how do you avoid going complacent? Joe and I both dig into this one from personal experience. Joe speaks to the PTSD that builds up inside a man after years of a hard marriage, how fear and insecurity can quietly self-sabotage the very progress you've worked so hard for, and why faith — not fear — has to lead. I talk about consistency, keeping the sword sharp, and why marriage is exactly like the gym. We close with a bonus coaching moment on communication — why "you make me feel" is a conversation grenade, and how to ask for clarity in a way that actually works.   Timeline Summary [0:00] Introduction to the Dad Edge mission and the movement to raise leaders of families and communities [1:01] Welcome to the Q&A — live questions from real Dad Edge Alliance members [1:42] Reminder: Roommates to Soulmates Cohort preview call on April 1st at 7pm Central [2:50] Question 1 — Rich: I gave my life to Christ six months ago after 30 years as an agnostic. How do I lead my older kids toward faith without forcing it? [6:07] Joe's answer: You lead by example, walking it out in front of them — including when you fail and change course [8:33] Joe's story: his son Colin told his wife "the dad I have now is not the dad I had ten years ago" [9:21] The power of community in faith — why you cannot walk this walk alone [9:55] What Joe does every two weeks: a Zoom Bible study with his entire grown family [11:02] Your outside world is always a reflection of your inside world — get your inside right first [13:47] Larry's answer: his personal journey from cultural Catholic to full believer — and what changed in the last year [15:17] The situation with Larry's son Ethan — a controversial church, a girlfriend pushing conversion, and how Larry navigated it without muscling him [16:35] How Larry approached it: curiosity over control — asking questions instead of issuing warnings [17:14] Larry goes to church with Ethan and hears a pastor say: "I had a great dad — but I had to find God by myself" [19:12] The conviction that hit Larry on the way home: "I'm failing you just like his dad failed him" [21:33] The honest conversation in the car — and Ethan's response that Larry never expected [23:10] How Larry invited Ethan into a Bible study as a fellow learner, not a teacher — and what it has done for their relationship [25:22] Question 2 — Anonymous: When things have been bad for years and you finally start getting wins in your marriage, how do you avoid getting complacent? [25:56] Larry's answer: expect your wife to pull back at first — she's afraid to hope. Keep the sword sharp and never take your foot off the gas [28:01] Joe's answer: be mindful of the PTSD and insecurity that builds up inside a man after years of a hard marriage [29:21] How fear and insecurity can quietly self-sabotage the progress you've worked so hard for [30:16] Let faith lead, not fear — fear has never once led Joe somewhere he was glad he went [31:03] A real-time example: a man texting Joe that morning — his wife said she wants to stop counseling and he went into panic mode [32:26] How to get clarity instead of telling yourself a story [34:23] The right way to ask for clarity — why "you make me feel" is a grenade and what to say instead [36:31] Words have power. Be effective, not just right. [37:27] Bonus: never text your wife emotional content — everyone reads it through their own filter   Five Key Takeaways You lead your kids toward faith the same way you lead them in everything else — by living it in front of them, including letting them see you fail and change course. You don't have to be an expert to lead your kids spiritually. Invite them to learn alongside you. "Let's figure this out together" is more powerful than "let me teach you." Your outside world is always a reflection of your inside world. If you want things to change around you, start with what's happening inside you. When your marriage starts turning around, don't get complacent. Marriage is like the gym — you don't work chest for eight weeks and then wonder why it's gone. Consistency is everything. Stop telling yourself a story about what your wife meant. Get clarity. And when you do, don't say "you make me feel" — own your interpretation and ask with curiosity, not accusation.   Links & Resources Roommates to Soulmates Cohort & Preview Call: https://thedadedge.com/soulmates The Men's Forge: https://themensforge.com Episode Link & Resources (Episode 1456): https://thedadedge.com/1456   Closing If there's one message from this episode that stands out, it's this: the most powerful thing you can do for the people you love is get yourself right on the inside first. Whether it's leading your kids toward faith, rebuilding your marriage, or just showing up differently than you have before — it all starts with the man in the mirror. Not the version of you that has all the answers, but the version that's humble enough to say "I don't have it all figured out, but I'm willing to learn." That's the man your kids need. That's the man your wife needs. If this episode resonated with you, share it with a man who is in the middle of his own turning point. Go out and live legendary.

In this Wednesday Q&A episode, Uncle Joe and I respond to a powerful question from a dad who's struggling with impulsive reactions, shutting down during conflict, and feeling like he can't get out of the same argument patterns with his wife. If you've ever caught yourself reacting instead of listening, or walking away from conversations feeling frustrated and disconnected, this episode will hit close to home.   We unpack the truth that two things can be true at the same time—both partners can be overwhelmed, both can be carrying heavy loads, and both can feel unseen. The key isn't competing over who has it harder; it's learning how to step out of the competition and into collaboration. We talk about how to create psychological safety during hard conversations, how to interrupt unhealthy patterns, and why curiosity is far more powerful than defensiveness.   Uncle Joe also shares a powerful perspective about what he calls the "rucksack principle"—taking an honest inventory of what you're carrying and being willing to sacrifice things that may be important to you but aren't serving the health of your marriage or family. If you're feeling overwhelmed, reactive, or stuck in recurring conflict, this episode offers practical tools and a new perspective on leadership at home.     Timeline Summary: [1:01] Wednesday Q&A kickoff with Uncle Joe and the Dad Edge community  [2:00] Listener question about impulsive reactions, yelling, and shutting down in marriage  [4:45] The powerful truth that two things can be true at the same time  [5:56] The "100-pound rucksack" analogy for overwhelm in marriage  [7:50] How to interrupt the conflict cycle with a new conversation approach  [10:00] Creating psychological safety by changing physical positioning in conversations  [13:20] Uncle Joe's perspective on inspecting your own "rucksack" first  [16:00] What real love looks like: patience, sacrifice, and humility  [21:30] The power of daily journaling and reflection to improve emotional awareness  [24:00] Why most men struggle with relationships because of a skill gap—not bad intentions      Five Key Takeaways Two things can be true at the same time—both partners can feel overwhelmed and still need support. Competing over who has it harder only deepens conflict in marriage. Psychological safety is created through curiosity, listening, and calm tone—not defensiveness. Great leadership in marriage starts by examining your own "rucksack" first. Most relationship struggles come from a skill gap—not a lack of love or commitment.   Links & Resources Roommates to Soulmates Cohort & Preview Call: https://thedadedge.com/soulmates Episode Shownotes: http://thedadedge.com/1450   Closing If you've been feeling reactive, overwhelmed, or stuck in the same conflict patterns at home, remember this: leadership in marriage starts with self-awareness.   Start by checking your own rucksack. Get curious instead of defensive. Create space for real conversations instead of competition.   If this episode resonated with you, make sure you rate, review, follow, and share it with another dad who needs to hear it.   Go out and live legendary.

There is a storm coming with the challenges of navigating the TRUSTEE CRISIS. It is one of the biggest blind spots in the “GREAT WEALTH TRANSFER” and will be the source of mountains of litigation for the unwary, https://youtu.be/hwQev88A03M Summary In this conversation, Frazer Rice and Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey discuss the current crisis in trusteeship, highlighting the shortage of qualified trustees amidst a significant wealth transfer. They explore the importance of modern trust planning, the challenges faced by individual trustees, and the need for better education and training in the field. The discussion also covers the emotional and interpersonal aspects of trusteeship, the functions and responsibilities of trustees, and the necessity of managing risk effectively. They emphasize the importance of building a pipeline for future trustees and improving the perception of the profession, while also identifying opportunities within the trust industry. https://open.spotify.com/episode/4qpkrVdaUa2AfDxgl7j3yN?si=XVgG3jE_Qpqq2JTqi8XLXQ Editing and post-production work for this episode was provided by The Podcast Consultant (⁠https://thepodcastconsultant.com⁠) Takeaways The coming crisis in trusteeship is already here. There is a significant shortage of qualified trustees. Trusteeship requires strong interpersonal skills and emotional intelligence. Managing risk is a fundamental aspect of trusteeship. Trustees critically need education and training. The role of a trustee is evolving with increasing complexity. Beneficiaries need to understand their rights and the trustee’s role. Custodial responsibilities are essential for asset protection. There are many opportunities for growth in the trust industry. Trust law and investment management are distinct fields. This Episode is for . . . Anyone that has an estate plan with a trust in it and doesn't know what a trustee does Any advisor who works w/ multi-generational situations (that’s everybody in wealth management) Any RIA looking to sell Financial types worried about compliance world Fiduciary litigators Chapters of “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges” 00:00 The Coming Crisis in Trusteeship 02:06 Importance of Modern Trust Planning 04:11 Challenges with Individual Trustees 08:03 The Dwindling Pool of Qualified Trustees 10:06 Functions and Responsibilities of a Trustee 12:20 The Emotional and Interpersonal Aspects of Trusteeship 16:05 Managing Risk in Trusteeship 19:07 Building a Pipeline for Future Trustees 22:10 The Role of Education in Trusteeship 25:07 Improving the Perception of Trusteeship 28:19 The Need for Better Trust Education 30:39 Bifurcation of Trustee Functions 33:26 Distribution Functions and Beneficiary Relations 36:52 Custodial Responsibilities in Trusteeship 40:19 Consequences of Poor Asset Management 46:41 Curriculum for Trustee Education 52:13 Opportunities in the Trust Industry Transcript of “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges” Frazer Rice (00:01.068)Welcome aboard, Jennifer. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (00:02.723)Thanks Frazer, how are you today? Frazer Rice (00:04.782)I am doing great. We’re going to dive into a topic that is near and dear to both of our hearts. And that is what I’m describing as the coming crisis in trusteeship, but I think it’s already here. Which is the concept of qualified trustees being in short supply, right in the face of a gigantic wealth transfer. And first of all, before we get into that, just describe what you do on a day to day basis first. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (00:33.445)Sure, I actually wear a bunch of hats. Day to day, right now, I’m a full-time practicing trust and estate attorney. I’m also an individual trustee for a variety of trusts that need either somebody here physically located in Delaware for a short period of time or even a successor trustee. But I’ve also spent many, many years building programs in trust management and trust administration. Because there is this crisis of human capital that just does not exist. I built multiple programs. They’re housed out of the University of Delaware. So I act as a trust and estate attorney, do planning, administration, I teach in the area, I build programs in the area, and I serve as a trustee. PEAK TRUST MANAGEMENT CERTIFICATE Frazer Rice (01:23.182)A full plate to be sure. To me, I came out of Wilmington Trust and another trust company served an individual trustee too. I’ve seen all these different flavors of trusteeship. My general sort of bon mot around that is that the individual trustees. I’d say 95 % or higher don’t really have an appreciation of the risk and responsibility that they’re taking on. And then the corporates have their own issues, which we’ll get into in a little bit. If we pull back even further, modern trust planning in wealth management, why is this so important? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (02:06.275)That’s massively important. It’s not just for the mass affluent or the ultra high net worth. It’s for everybody. We have all of these assets that we have this hyperfocus on building and increasing our wealth. Making sure that we have the ability to sustain ourselves throughout our entire lives. But if we don’t do this type of planning, if we don’t have structures and implementation for when we die, then our assets that we’ve planned so diligently for will fall off of a cliff. We lose the ability to control ultimately what happens to those assets. Layered on top of that, of course, is the tax component for ultra high net worth folks who are trying to really focus and direct their assets to make and create generational wealth transfers. Without this type of functionality and wealth planning and estate planning long-term, people lose control of what they’ve spent so much time building. Frazer Rice (03:13.338)One of the things I tell people as far as trusts are concerned is that, you know, we’re putting these structures together. They’re durable enough to withstand taxation or creditors or other asset protection features, create some guidelines around distributing the assets to the next generation or other constituencies. But also have some flexibility to be able to deal with the things we can’t look into the crystal ball and figure out over time. And that those three things just putting a document together that tries to do all that is hard enough, but then to put it in the hands of somebody or something to administer and to exercise discretion around it. That’s where the real art and science kind of stitched together and create this issue. You know, as we think about that too, the idea, the history of these types of scenarios kind of goes back to, you know, you’d put a structure in place and then you’d go hire a bank and they’d take care of everything. How do you look at that and say, all right, we’ve gone well past banks to individuals and then to dedicated institutions. What is the problem there? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (04:22.956)Now the problem, there’s two problems. In my opinion, what I see is that, you know, your individual trustee by and large is Uncle Joe, right? He’s the guy that everybody goes to in the family. The responsible one. He’s the smart one. The wealthy one who, great, doesn’t know what the fiduciary duties are. He doesn’t know that he has a duty of impartiality. He doesn’t know that… Frazer Rice (04:32.419)Right. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (04:48.475)He can’t self deal unless the instrument says so. Doesn’t understand how the instrument works. He doesn’t understand the nuance and the legalese written into the instrument. But he’s flying by the seat of his pants and everybody looks to him as the respected one in the family. No one knows that they have the ability to challenge him. So with your individual run of the mill trustee named in the instrument, they just don’t have the expertise, they don’t have the technical knowledge. Don’t know what they don’t know. They can get into trouble in that way. The other problem that you have with professional individual trustees oftentimes is that they are not formally trained. They may be an attorney who is working in that area, who’s doing plans for people who may or may not know what the full scope of being a trustee is. They may not realize, I have to get a special insurance policy because my malpractice insurance policy doesn’t actually cover this type of fiduciary engagement. There’s a lot of landmines that individuals can run into when they’re doing this type of work. On the corporate side, the problems that we run into is that there’s just a complete and utter lack. Frazer Rice (05:50.061)Hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (06:12.059)Of available educational programs to teach people the proper way to be able to understand trusteeship. It has always been, and it just has developed over time through, you know, oh, we’ll give it to the bank, the bank will do it. This apprenticeship model, and that just does not scale well because if you learn improperly at the edge of a desk from somebody that learned improperly at the edge of the desk. Then the person that you’re teaching now at the edge of the desk is learning what you learned improperly. So anecdotally, I did karate for a long, long time. And the man who taught me karate, I’m almost a secondary black belt to like, was serious in karate. And the man who taught me karate said, you practice, it makes permanent. Don’t practice wrong. Because when you’re practicing wrong, you’re making permanent wrong things. And that’s what the apprenticeship model has the risk of lending itself to. It’s not that every trustee that learns at the edge of the desk learns wrong, but the risk is too high because the fiduciary responsibilities and the duties are too high to run that risk. The other problem is that we have a dwindling pool of really qualified senior trust officers because of just the nature of the job. You’re a human being, you’re an individual, you age, you retire. And it’s not something that people go to school and say, when I grow up, I want to be a trustee. They fall into it sideways. And unless there are academic programs that are out there that people are aware of and that they can get some formal training, some formal education to enter into the field. Frazer Rice (07:49.742)Yeah Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (08:03.82)Separate and distinct from, I’m in the field and now I want to get a CTFA. I want to earn my certification to really show that I have the chops in this area. We have this shrinking pool of expertise. We have a lack of knowledge, a lack of formal education, and an apprenticeship model that doesn’t scale. On top of, with the individual side and the corporate side, this massive wealth transfer and an explosion of trust complexity that’s all taking place at the same time. Frazer Rice (08:31.918)One of the issues at the corporate level too is that as you say that the impregnance model is not necessarily the best way to do it. They’re cutting back on training programs. The business model around being a trustee or even a specific trustee does not make the big money. And so the ability for those types of institutions to develop the people.who ultimately are now in a very sort of pro-employee environment where there’s such a demand for trustees that they can kind of switch around and get a 10 or 20 % bump each time they go because people are desperate to have them. There’s a real cavern there to try to create the permanence that you’re looking for in a structure that really rewards consistency over time, especially as it relates to discretion and process of decision-making. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (09:23.15)Yeah, that’s exactly right. And that leads to this revolving door in the industry, because people are just trying to make more money and they’re going and bouncing to different trust companies. And there isn’t that backfill. Just because it’s a trust company and there’s policies and procedures, trusteeship is about relationships that you make with your beneficiaries, the relationships that you develop with multiple generations in a family. And when you have somebody that’s acting and serving in that and they move, they leave, they’re no longer acting and serving in that capacity, a new personality comes into the mix and it can really be disruptive. So having that consistency and minimizing the attrition is so valuable. Frazer Rice (10:06.766)The other thing I try to bring up, especially to individual trustees, is that the thing that you’re signing up for is probably going to look a lot different in five or 10 or 15 years when people are aged on, they remarry, they have kids, etc. That the conditions are a lot different than what they were before. And it’s going to be difficult to take on a structure that has eight people when before there were two. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (10:37.517)Yes, and that’s that complexity, that increased sophistication and complexity of trust structures that are available now to people. With the increase in the exemption, these trust structures, they’re not necessarily changed. For example, qualified personal residence trust, if people really need that anymore, but there’s a ton of them sitting around there. Are trustees properly administering it? Did you actually transfer the real estate into the trust at the time? So there’s all kinds of sophisticated structures that the trustees may or may not have the right skills. But they’re saddled with having to do it. Frazer Rice (11:19.47)Let’s take a step back and just talk about the functions of a trustee for a second. I break them down basically into three. Which is the first one. You have to administer the trust, meaning you have to dot the I’s, cross the T’s, make sure things get executed, tax returns are filed, statements get sent out to the extent that that happens, and that the administration of a structure like that occurs. Then I talk about the concept that the investments have to be made monitored moved around decided and that they’re appropriate for all classes of beneficiary that are in there and then the distribution function which is The assets have to be distributed according to the law. First the trust then maybe the intent or the law if everything is silent and that those three things are very different components and that it’s tough to find somebody who’s great at all three housed within one brain. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (12:20.217)Yeah, I agree with that 100%. It is a three legged stool. It’s the investments, the administration and the distributions. And in that administration umbrella in and of itself, there’s a tremendous amount of work that sort of goes unsung. know, it’s not the sexy stuff where you’re investing and making a bunch of money for your income beneficiaries and managing to preserve the corpus for your principal or your remainder beneficiaries. And it’s certainly not the personal interaction that you’re doing with your beneficiary day to day. Making distributions, helping them, seeing the product of that help. It’s the making sure you file ax returns are properly. Understanding how to read that tax return. Even if you’re not preparing it, making a proper selection on the accountant that you’re using to prepare those tax returns if you’re not preparing it. Make sure to set up statements properly, make sure that in this world of silent trust documents that you’re not sending a statement to somebody who’s not supposed to have it. Communicating with beneficiaries on an even keel. Making sure that you’re not inadvertently violating your duty of impartiality because it’s more than just a substantive duty, there’s a procedural duty as well. That’s really, really challenging to find within one human being, let alone add on top of it somebody who’s financially savvy enough to understand investments and all of the different complex investment tools that are out there, as well as having the personality and the interpersonal skills to keep beneficiaries engaged and happy. Frazer Rice (13:56.426)Just on top of that, the EQ, the bedside manner, and the ability to simplify the complex, et cetera. At the same time, that dedicated note taker that is able to document everything that happens within a decision. Whether distribution or investment or otherwise, that it’s just two different people most times. I find that something falls apart as time goes on. Ultimately if things aren’t laid out correctly, that’s when conflict starts to simmer. Then you know if there is something that’s wrong. That’s allowed to compound that’s where you get into a huge problem later on. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (14:36.922)It’s all that feeling. People are behaving in ways that they may or may not be able to articulate their emotional proximity to. When you’re talking with beneficiaries. There’s something simmering under the surface that you inherited because you’re a trustee. You may not even be aware of it because the beneficiaries may not even be able to articulate it. You have to have a certain sense. A gut check of feelings of rntuitively being able to read what’s going on under the surface. To pull it out of people in a very balanced and even keel way. It’s not an easy job by any stretch of the imagination. On top of financial literacy and personal liability and executive functioning skills, being detail oriented, making sure your documentation is not overly explicit. isn’t, you know, scarce. You’re now wondering how and why did you make those decisions? People don’t think about the decisions that they make on a day to day basis. We don’t think in a way to articulate why I made this decision. Why I exercised this type of judgment. And that’s what we’re being asked to do as trustees is to document what is my decision making process? Why am I making the decision? What are my factors involved in making that decision in a way that’s defensible. If we ever need to defend it. Frazer Rice (16:05.292)Well, in favoring one class of people over another is usually where the rubber hits the road on this. People who are used to seeing the income from a trust and don’t want that touched come hell or high water. Then future beneficiaries who’d like to see the trust go from X to 2X to 5X. So that they have something larger to enjoy. You have a natural tension that you have to manage. It’s just not easy. If you don’t document the hows and whys of what you’re doing, you set yourself up for a problem. From one class or another looking at you saying, you you should have done it differently. To go back to that liability component. You’re the only one who sits in the chair of having made that decision. You’re the one with the bullseye on your back when it’s called to account. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (16:53.093)That’s right, that is exactly right. And now add on top of it, you’re just named because you’re Uncle Joe and everybody goes to Uncle Joe. You have no technical background and you just don’t know the landmines that are there. You don’t know what you don’t know. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we were able to create a pipeline of really sophisticated entry level employees or folks that are, you know sophisticated in financial literacy that now want to take the job to become trustees, that we were able to give them this technical roadmap for what the job actually is and then have them get the ability to apprentice on all of those policies and procedures. What does this corporation do? How do we document things? When you’re trying to learn it all at one time, it’s like drinking from a fire hose. Let’s give people the ability to really have a chance at doing it successfully. Frazer Rice (17:53.048)So let’s dive into that pipeline issue for a second. We already diagnosed that the, let’s call it the trust companies or the banks are, they’re just not resourced enough. They can’t run people through an internal school to do it quote unquote correctly. The apprentice model really kicks in. Which means you’re at the sort of mercy of what people are good at, not good at, et cetera. People turn over quickly so that apprenticeship doesn’t even work anymore. The RIAs I think are the worst place to learn about this type of thing. They have a completely different modus operandi as far as keeping clients happy. The word fiduciary means something so different to them than it does to an actual trustee. I wouldn’t feel good about the training on that front to sort of create trustees And then so law schools. They’re they’re just trying to create people the trust in the states vertical as a general matter. Let alone trying to delineate into a trustee situation. You’re putting the pipeline together and you put these programs together. How do you stitch together the needs and what does that manifest itself into? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (19:07.642)So that’s a really, really good question. I think that the very first place that we start with answering that question is advising on a trust as an attorney. It’s different from the administration of a trust and the skills that you need for that. So when you create a program like this where you’re trying to teach about trust management. You have to start with the technical skill. The legal side of what is it that we’re even doing? What is a trust? What are the fiduciary duties? Where do they come from? Then we have to, after we teach or create a structure or foundation on what the legality is. Now we go into how does this translate into administration? So when I created the programs, I looked at what’s the law they need to know? What is the level of sophistication of the student? And what do I need to, from a foundational perspective, teach first? What are the building blocks? And then how do I translate that into administration? The one thing that I have found is trust law does not equal investment management. So if people are coming along… Frazer Rice (20:26.254)No question. I’m nodding audibly at that comment. I like that. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (20:31.226)Your fiduciary duties as a trustee are fundamentally different than those of an RIA, where some RIAs are not even fiduciaries by law. They’re not. So being able to delineate and explain where that line is, what makes you a fiduciary, what are those duties, after you know the legal basics. And taught to you at a level that you can understand. I don’t expect everybody to be a lawyer. And people have asked me time and time again, do I need to be a lawyer to know this? No, you don’t need to be a lawyer because you’re not advising on the law. You’re advising on the administration of a legal structure and how that administration affects the fiduciary duties that are inherent in the relationship. Then how those fiduciary duties are translated out to the beneficiary. That’s the way that I’ve always built these programs. Where do I start? Start with the law. Where do I go from there? Start with how the administration translates the law. And then how does that administration get heard by the beneficiary? Where does the RIA come into the mix? The RIA should not be dabbling in advising on trusts. They should know that they need to bring in somebody who has this particular skill. And if they’re not doing that, they’re doing the client a disservice by trying to give one-stop shop advice. Frazer Rice (22:06.85)Yep, no question about it. One of the things that…we delve into the world of trusts and their function, et cetera, is that you’re dealing with an ecosystem from client to outside advisor, whether RIA or even accountant, et cetera, that they’re looking for certainty and airtight. quality to these structures that you put them in place and then everything runs like a clock going forward. When in actuality, I think there is a bandwidth of risk around everything. And so it’s the poor trust officer or individual trustee who sometimes has to be the bearer of bad news to say, yeah, you know, I think this is going to work 98 % of the time, but there’s a 2 % problem here or we’ve got this to fix or something like that and everybody else sort of sighs with disappointment and gets mad at the administrative function when in actuality they’re really doing their job and trying to, you know, keep a lot of things that are spinning out of control kind of within view. How do you get a trust officer or that administrative function or even the full trustee function to be comfortable with that risk and everything that’s involved with that? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (23:20.504)You have to start with explaining that there is risk and we’re not our job is not as a trustee to eliminate risk. Our job is to manage and identify risk. It is inherent in the job. There is going to be risk. No matter what you do, you cannot divorce risk from trusteeship. It’s a matter of identifying perceived risk and actual risk. And if you can teach that, if you can teach These are the things that are going to trigger a likely outcome. They’re gonna trigger a likely risk. Then you can essentially, you can’t foresee everything. I mean, there are things that are just gonna happen. But in a trust instrument, you’ve got contingency plan upon contingency plan upon contingency plan. That’s what the flexibility of those structures are building. We need to, as trustees, be able to recognize What is the risk with contingency plan A? The risk with B? What is the risk with C? How can we minimize the risk? And how can we make sure that we’re managing perception of risk versus actual risk? Frazer Rice (24:29.31)as someone who’s been in trust companies, advised trust companies, advised trustees, and advised clients, the lack of appreciation for the management of that risk and that that as the intersection of the business model of trusteeship and risk management and use of discretion and making hard decisions and even kind of an insurance quality around these structures, how do you fix that, where people place a level of respect on the job that I think is completely lacking in the wealth management ecosystem? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (25:09.089)Absolutely. It’s a tough one to answer. How do you fix it? First and foremost, I think that it’s a top-down fix, especially at a corporate trust company, a bank, and even an independent trust company that’s not affiliated with a bank. The management has to… really understand the function of the trust company. For so long, it’s been just an extra service that we provide and and we’ll do this, the back office trust company. It’s really, really important that the management recognizes what the functionality of the trust company is and stops treating it as sort of a back office stepchild. From the corporate level, I think that’s the very first place we start. Frazer Rice (25:38.478)Mm-hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (25:57.818)The second place we start is investing in our trust officers, investing in the team, giving them the education that they need, continuing to give them education, providing training programs, whether they be in-house, external, bring in trainers. None of this is set it and forget it. At the individual level, I think it’s really, really important to have functions like the Individual Trustee Alliance, groups like that, where you have an ability to talk to other professionals that are doing what you’re doing. That’s another way to impress upon people that we have to manage the risk and we can’t do it all alone. Nobody knows everything. You really have to, you have to talk to other people. You have to engage. have to, what is it called when we were practicing law and we’re a little bit outside of our comfort zone, we have to consult with other people who know more than we do. It’s our obligation as lawyers. It’s the same thing with a trust company, with a trustee, whether you’re an individual or you’re not. Widen that circle. Frazer Rice (27:08.474)I think this is my idea for the day that there’s got to be a bit of a public relations campaign sort of describing what’s going on here because I think especially when we go into the family members that sort of occupy these roles, they have no earthly idea what they’re doing. They’re usually doing it for free. Everything’s hunky dory up until a point and everyone hopes that everyone is not going to sue each other if something goes wrong. But the level of wealth that’s being transferred now is now so significant that everyone sort of talks about, AI is going to get rid of lawyers. Nope, not in fiduciary litigation. I think that’s a medium term growth industry, especially around insurance, around ILITs, around revocable trusts, around elder care. But this is my advertisement for people who are in law school looking for a productive way to go. I think that one is going to be, I think that one’s recession proof, at least for a while until I retire anyway. So my thought is that awareness over these things, and it’s probably going to take a very difficult case or a class action suit, something like that, where somebody really gets hurt in order for that awareness to come up. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (28:24.922)Yeah, I would agree. think that some of the solutions would include better trust education, you know, whether it be for RIAs, lawyers. Trust in the states is a throwaway class in law school. And there are so many law schools that are essentially rolling it back because bar exams aren’t testing it anymore in a variety of states. And ACTEC is definitely working with the law schools to try and increase trust in the states being taught and certainly being tested. So education for lawyers coming out of law school, education for RIAs that are advising on trusts, education for trust officers, for trust administrators, trust professionals in general, clear role delineation. What is the role of the RIA? The role of the trust officer? What is the role of the trustee if they’re an individual trustee? And then creating a culture of collaboration on what we’re doing as a team for the beneficiary, not substitution, but collaboration with the advisors and the trustees. Frazer Rice (29:32.59)Let’s go into the role delineation for a second. About 20 or 30 years ago, the concept of bifurcating or sort of cordoning off the different functions I described before the investment, the administration and the distribution has come into vogue. I think that came out of frustration with bank trust companies where you got one set of advice for every trust that they had as far as investments and distributions and administration and a lot of modern larger families wanted something a little bit more specific to their needs. And that’s really turned, it’s exploded as an industry for increasing sophistication and size of wealth. Along those different functions, where maybe the administration goes to a professional trust company or a trust officer in the state that you want, Then there’s some intersection maybe in the distribution committee. And then the investment side of it is a bit of a free for all, think, depending on what you’re, dealing with. How do you educate the, that continued the delineation, but the coordination within those types of structures. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (30:41.275)Yeah, I think it’s really important. And I’m a Delaware lawyer. I’m licensed in multiple states, but Delaware is my home. It’s where I learned how to be a lawyer. It’s where I grew up as a lawyer. So this directed trust model that you’re describing, where you’re bifurcating, truly bifurcating these particular functionalities of a trustee, it originated in Delaware. sort of, we didn’t, I mean, we invented it, right? We codified it. It was being done, but we codified it. The idea of making sure that everybody understands what their function is and knowing that there’s a limit of liability that’s built into the instrument and communicating what that means to the RIA that is named in the document. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard companies, heard trust companies say, we’re advisor friendly. And I’m like, not unless you’re directed, you’re not. Frazer Rice (31:37.528) “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges”Yeah. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (31:40.439)If you are directed, you are 100 % advisor friendly because there’s no chance that that trustee is going to try and take the investment management. They’re not a portfolio manager. Not a clerical administrator. They’re not a passive rule follower. We need to identify what does that trustee actually do when they are an administrative or directed trustee. Clarify that role so that people who are engaged in this bifurcation, this structure where we’ve got a distribution committee, maybe it’s individuals who are close to the family, close to the beneficiaries, where you don’t have somebody who’s objectively uninvolved with the family members making decisions as to whether or not there’s a distribution that should be made. But also advising those rolls those advisors that your administrative trustee is not just a pencil put a paper pusher. Not just checking boxes. They really do add value to the role that they provide and making sure that everybody understands what each other are doing, having regular meetings amongst the team instead of operating in a vacuum or operating in a silo. And taking the approach of it’s not my job, misunderstanding trustee powers and the advisor’s authority. So when that’s delineated, when that’s really understood, not just by the advisors, but also by the beneficiaries, there are so many beneficiaries out there, Frazer, that have absolutely no idea that they actually hold all the cards. They don’t know. Frazer Rice (33:25.87)Along that line, so in the administrative, we just walked through pretty nicely. The distribution function is one that, let’s talk a little bit for a second about what it means to ask a trustee for a distribution and maybe the difference between income and principal and why having a steady hand at the wheel within that function, whether it’s a corporate trust company of qualified individual or family input in that function, why real good thought needs to go into how that’s staffed. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (34:04.73)Yeah, absolutely. 100%. In a corporate trustee ship or a corporate trust company structure, there’s always going to be distribution committees, right? So if you are the trustee, you’re going to have to go through a committee that’s looking at what your reasoning is for making that distribution. They’re asking questions about what have been the prior distributions? Have they come from principal? Have they come from income? What is the spend rate on that trust? How is this going to affect long-term spend rate? Is this an aberration? Is this something that’s gonna become a habit? Really understanding what the distribution, the guidelines are in the trust. What is the distribution standard? Making that decision? What are our factors? And how many people are at the table? Who’s communicating that to the beneficiary? Does the beneficiary know that the trust officer alone does not have the ability to say yes or no? That when they’re in this ecosystem of a corporate trust company, they have their checks and balances to make sure that that risk is being managed. So when you’re looking at corporate trust companies, are a lot of layers behind understanding what the distribution standard is, whether it’s hems or if it’s purely discretionary. The other thing that you need to look at when it’s not a corporate trustee and it’s an individual trustee is, how is that individual trustee making that decision? Are they doing it in a vacuum? Alone? Are they favoring one beneficiary over another because they like them more, you need to have some communication to the beneficiaries so that they understand what they are, what their interest is, what they are entitled to, if anything, and why the trustee stands in that position as the gatekeeper. And I really think in my heart of hearts, we need to make a shift from a gatekeeper trustee Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (36:16.708)to a beneficiary enhancement trustee, where the beneficiary is really taking on the understanding that the trustee is there to facilitate enhancing the beneficiary’s life. That even though the trust may have started at the outset as a tax strategy or something that the grantor decided they needed to do with the advice of counsel. At the end of the day, you wouldn’t have been named as the beneficiary if there wasn’t some sense of love or obligation even, that it’s for your benefit. It’s in the name. Beneficiary. Trustees need to understand that and beneficiaries need to be taught. Frazer Rice (36:54.958)Right. Frazer Rice (37:00.646)And it goes to the circle back to the notion of making sure that you write down the whys of the decision because ultimately if the concepts of favoritism or you didn’t communicate this or anything, the idea of having the beneficiary submit a budget but having them understand why they are submitting a budget and then if there is some discretion that’s happening around that decision that the data points that are informing that discretion, that’s gonna keep everybody safe a lot later on. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (37:32.666)Absolutely. I break it down into a couple of different factors. It’s fiduciary decision making. How is that fiduciary making the decisions they’re making? Why are they making those decisions? And who is being affected by the decisions? Document interpretation. Do you understand the document that you’re administering? If you don’t understand the document you’re administering, hopefully best case scenario, you know what you don’t know and you ask. But if you don’t understand the document and you don’t even have the wherewithal to say, hey, I need help to understand the document, it’s really problematic. The third part, balancing beneficiary interests. Really taking on board this idea of the principal income problem that all the assets in the trust are not the same. That some of it doesn’t at all in any way affect a certain class of beneficiaries. And at the same time, it’s inextricably intertwined in the way that it affects another class of beneficiaries. And then risk management and governance. How is this being governed? How are we managing perceived and actual risk as a trustee? Frazer Rice (38:40.13)The investment function, which I alluded to before, I see storm clouds on that horizon, not really at the RIA level, because I think there’s sort of a default mode that investment policy statements are in place. Diversification is a true commodity at this point. And I never really worry about an RIA sort of understanding how to invest to get to a certain expected return and deal with the risks and drawdown and all that stuff. The storm cloud I see is when individuals sit in that role and they are being tasked with, let’s call it quote unquote, overseeing concentration, meaning that trust is holding a building, farmland, a nuclear reactor, crypto, all of these different things that sometimes can be, A, they have their own different maintenance responsibilities that are not just looking at a fidelity statement, but that they also have their own volatility And, you know, in the case of a building, you got to make sure it’s managed correctly. are they going to get sued or the windows kept up, all of that stuff, and that there’s a whole different component there. And I’m waiting for the shoe to drop on some fact pattern there where somebody is sitting in the role of an investment advisor. It doesn’t say trustee in the document, so they don’t really think that they have trustee liability. But. they sit in that role and all of a sudden somebody finds 10 55 gallon drums of green fluid in the basement of a building and all of a sudden the trust has a big set of red brackets that say minus $100 million that you owe to the federal government and the EPA. How do you think about that? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (40:21.454)Hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (40:25.242)That’s a heavy question. so the Delaware stock answer, obviously, direct it, right? It’s just to get the trust, cut off the liability. At the first, at the inception of your hypothetical is bad drafting, right? So if there’s no statement as to whether or not your investment advisor is acting as a fiduciary or not, Frazer Rice (40:35.042)Right. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (40:52.836)What does your statute say? Does your statute impose that they are as a default a fiduciary or not? So that’s the very first step. That’s bad drafting. We need to know. But if it’s silent, let’s say it’s just a lousy document, there’s, God knows. Anybody who’s seen trust documents knows that, you’ve seen them all, right? And everything in between. Some are good, some are bad. If this is a bad one. Frazer Rice (41:13.08)Seen good and you’ve seen bad. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (41:20.079)Then we need to document the statute. If we can correct it, modify the document, let’s modify it. But if all of that can’t happen, then I would say the best way to handle it, make sure you have adequate insurance. mean, over-insure that, over-insure it. Make sure that there’s regular checks on the actual… Assets that are in the trust, if you have a concentration and that concentration is real estate, get the advice of counsel, put that bad boy into an LLC, get yourself some distance from the actual asset itself being held in the trust, hold an interest, hold a financial interest, push it down to the corporate level. But if you can’t do all of that and you’ve got those 500 gallon drums of green fluid and now you’re… Frazer Rice (42:14.286)You Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (42:15.371)You you’ve got a super fun site. What do you do? You don’t shy away from it. Have to address it head on. You got to take the accountability. You got to communicate and document, communicate and document some more. Talk to your beneficiaries. Make sure that they’re aware of where it went wrong, why it went wrong. Because I have found in my exposure in the industry over time and in reading case law, it’s when you’re trying to cover stuff up. Frazer Rice (42:43.913)Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (42:44.027)You’re just making more problems. Bad news doesn’t age well. It doesn’t get better over time. You have to approach it head on and make sure that there’s communication and documentation. Meet with your beneficiaries. If there’s a trusteeship where you are appointed as a trustee individually and you’re not having at least quarterly meetings with your beneficiaries, If you’re not going out and seeing the asset, if you’re not going out and making sure that the asset is properly custodyed, you’re not, you’re violating your fiduciary duty. You are not doing what you’re supposed to do. Frazer Rice (43:21.804)You brought up an interesting word there, custody, which is the administrative function, whether held corporately or individually, one of the major things you have to do is to safeguard the assets. And that’s a big two syllable word that carries a lot of weight with it. That custodial function, how do you teach the trust officers or the individual trustees where that starts and stops? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (43:48.579)Yeah, mean, custody is super, it’s a really touchy, touchy subject, especially with the dynamic way that trusts have developed in the current climate from tangibles. You know, I’ve got artwork and my beneficiary wants to hang the artwork in their house. Well, do you have custody? Has it been assigned to the trustee and how do you maintain that asset? Make sure nothing’s happening to it. Do make an appointment, go over to the, visit your artwork? What if it’s prize horses, you know? What if it’s, you know, a stud that, you know, we’re gonna need to breed and it’s gonna be the next Triple Crown winner? How do you make sure that the barn is properly safeguarded? It’s a really touchy subject, especially with things like tangibles and things like assets held away when you technically custody the asset, but you don’t have control over the asset. I think in the education part for custodying, what I do in my programs and when I teach this is I make sure that we talk about different types of asset classes. And what the risks, again, what are the risks that you run with these asset classes? How can we manage the actual and the perceived risk of holding that asset? Even if you have custody and name only, but you don’t have physical custody, how do you maintain your control over that asset? Because it’s really the C’s, right? The custody and control. Just because you don’t have custody doesn’t mean you don’t have control. So we have to make sure that there’s an education that’s provided about the different asset classes, whether it’s tangibles, intangibles, assets held away, if it’s a concentration of stock, if it’s crypto, and most trust companies are not taking crypto. I think that there’s like a circuitous way that they’re getting in right now, but it all boils down to education, isolating what the issue is and educating people on it. Frazer Rice (45:59.586)I’ll give you a third C, it’s consequences, which is what happens when you don’t understand these functions. on the crypto side of things, Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (46:01.786)Uhhh Frazer Rice (46:11.544)Holds the key to get to the crypto. What happens if that trust officer quits and walks away with the key and they’re like, well, multi-sigil figure this out. I’m like, okay, that’s not that. That doesn’t make me feel great at the moment. And now there have been some advances, which is good, but traps for the unwary to be sure. the good news too for crypto is for people who want exposure, the spot ETFs take away 90 % of the problems with that. But as we start to think about winding down here, because I have a feeling we could probably talk for four or five hours on this subject, when putting your programs together, what does a curriculum look like? And we don’t have to go through it bit by bit, but how does that work when someone comes to your program? How much time does it take? What’s the commitment? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (46:47.172)Yeah, I think so. Frazer Rice (46:54.851)Mm-hmm. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (47:06.33)So the program that I created that’s really available anywhere across the country is called the Peak Trust Management Certificate Program. Peak Trust Company, may be familiar with it. They have name rights because they gave the donation to the University of Delaware for me to build the program. So it’s housed at the Lerner College at the University of Delaware, but bears the name of Peak Trust Company. I look at five different things. The first thing is trust law and administration. So like I said previously when we were talking, you lay that foundation of what is the legal component of this? What is the baseline that people have to know? And then what is the administration? The second component is, and it’s inextricably intertwined as taxation. What is the income tax? What are the deductions? And now let’s take all of that income tax knowledge, individual income tax knowledge, and build on it with fiduciary income tax. What is DNI? What is FAI? How does it go out to the beneficiary? What’s the character of the distribution? How do we manage that? What are we deducting in the trust? So teaching taxation and not because trustees necessarily are tax preparers, but because the trustees obligation is to be able to understand and read that tax return, they need to know how to spot problems. So from my perspective, teaching fiduciary income tax is a critical component. It also helps. Yeah. Frazer Rice (48:38.828)No, no, I was gonna say no question about that. And there are elections to make, just because it doesn’t just go on autopilot, there are choices to be made so that if you’re the trustee, you may not have to prepare the tax return, but you may have to make a choice on the tax return and you’ve got to be informed because that can be an issue. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (48:58.651)65 day elections, perfect example, right? You just, you need to understand what your role is and how it overlaps with that of the CPA. The third part, of course, investments. Investments are inextricably intertwined, whether you’re doing it yourself as the trustee or you’re directed or even delegated, which is like the hairy scaries of every trusteeship known to man, because you’re not actually in control, but you’re responsible. So it’s the gray. When I build a program, because of the, you know, the directed trusteeship being so popular in today’s day and age, we have to talk about not just investments of, you know, marketable securities, not just the custody of tangibles, but also subscription documents, because so many alternatives are held in trust right now. unique assets, need to know how the trustee is actually carrying out their fiduciary duty when it comes to engaging in an investment that is an alternative investment. The fourth component is of course compliance. We cannot ever get away from compliance and I think we could do a whole nother podcast on compliance in trusteeship but. You know, it’s a regulated entity. And even if you’re an individual trustee and you’re not using what those compliance frameworks are, what the guidelines are by OCC, Reg 9, FDIC, if you’re not looking at that and using that as a guideline, don’t do the job. understanding KYC, BSA, AML, all of those compliance components that have tentacles. That’s the fourth part. And then for the fifth part of this program, because it’s specifically geared toward trustee education in trust companies, although it can be applicable, very applicable to individuals, is operations. I was very fortunate that I was able to partner with SCI on building the operations component. So we license their platform called Plato. It’s essentially their training platform. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (51:12.888)so that trustees can see how fees are set up, fees, that’s a whole other podcast, fees, statements, distributions, how are we doing this? How are we documenting everything? What are the logistics of the day-to-day operations? So that’s how I built the program and it’s available anywhere in the country. It’s 10 weeks, how long does it take? I would say from three to five hours a week of an investment that you’re making at a bare minimum. Obviously there’s a whole lot more of depth that you can go into. The resources are built in. But I would say 10 weeks, about 50 hours of time where you’re actually engaging with the material. And then I bring in guest lecturers on each different area of expertise for lack of a better description. And they get a certificate at the end, they get a digital badge, and now they really have something where they can add value day one in a trust company or as a trustee. Frazer Rice (52:17.902)With Delaware being, you one of the real gold standards as far as trust jurisdiction, I assume that everything that comes out of this program is pretty transportable to the other useful jurisdictions, let’s call it, within the country. know, the Tennessee’s, the South Dakota’s, the Nevada’s, the Alaska’s, Wyoming’s, New Hampshire’s, et cetera. Obviously, there are hairs to split with different foibles in their law, but everything that you’re describing sounds like works everywhere else. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (52:47.928)And I’ve always taken the approach, you’re 100 % correct, I’ve always taken the approach of UTC. I base everything off of UTC and if there’s something different or unique based upon the jurisdiction that you’re in, I always encourage people you have to look at your statute, you have to look at the jurisdiction that you’re actually practicing this in and administering in. I use Delaware, South Dakota, Alaska as examples quite often when we’re talking about the directed stuff, but By and large, it’s UTC. Frazer Rice (53:20.966)It just a weird subset. So special needs trusts and islets, which are two types of trusts, very specific. One holds life insurance. The other is designed to really take care of people who can’t take care of themselves. And they are types of trusts that a lot of trust companies don’t like to take on because the liability is harder or the profit margin is less. For those individuals who get the opportunity to participate in those and I put that in air quotes. How would you advise people to get ready for those types of situations? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (53:58.308)People who are in need of those types of trusts. Frazer Rice (54:02.122)Well, maybe both. The people who need those trusts, you know, they’re going to, they, you know, it’s almost like they get set up and then the staffing gets kind of figured out later, barely. And then, you know, the, for the people who end up taking on that role, they really have no idea of what they’re in for in a sense. Is there sort of like a mini, I’m not going to say a full course like you’re describing, but a crash course in, in what’s going on here and what can I do to keep myself safe? Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (54:30.271)Unfortunately, no, I don’t know of one. and there isn’t much built in. there’s, we talk about a little bit in the program that I built, but, those are specialized and eyelets we talk about a little bit more there, you eyelets had their day and sort of they has done ish. but special needs trust. It’s a whole other ball game because It really incorporates state law and social security and Medicaid, all of those government benefits that I think you would need something more specialized than my program that I developed. And I don’t have a great answer for that, I’m sorry. Frazer Rice (55:12.482)No, there’s not a great answer for it because it’s tough. it’s a, all of which is to say for someone who’s involved with those things and feels confused by what’s going on, that’s one where it’s worth it to spend the money to lean on a dedicated Medicaid elder care, special needs type of lawyer on that front because there are traps for the unwary. Okay, now we’re starting to butt up against an hour here of. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (55:29.764)Yes . . . Frazer Rice (55:38.827)Four hours. No, I’m kidding listeners. We’re not going to talk for four hours, but How do people find your program and and then I’ll ask a bonus question at the end Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (55:49.339)So the program is on the University of Delaware’s website. You just type in peak trust management certificate and it’ll pop up. My name will be there. I think my picture might be there. It’s all over my LinkedIn. So if you look me up, you’re going to see the peak trust management certificate program. You can always email me, jennifer at zeldenlaw.com. Happy to push people into it. start, I’m in the new cohort right now. We’re two weeks into a 10 week program. But we have a new cohort starting in May. I think it’s May 4th. So may the fourth be with you. Frazer Rice (56:24.622)Terrific. So the final question here is really more of a crystal ball question. In this trust industry, trustee industry, what are the real, I’m going to say opportunities out there, and we’ve sort of painted a picture of doom and gloom and its low profit margin and things like that. Where can someone who is thinking from a business perspective about this find something? Once they’re properly educated about it and being able to participate in it. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (56:57.582)There are so many opportunities. There is an absolute need for good trustees everywhere. Trust companies from coast to coast, individual trustee alliance. People really, really need trustees. There’s tremendous opportunity with Heritage Institute, not the Heritage Foundation, but the Heritage Institute. There’s opportunities with…various family offices and various trust companies for education, for beneficiary education. So many opportunities out there. Trust companies are just clamoring for people. So if people are interested in becoming a trustee, getting that education, you will not have a hard time finding a job. Like you said, it’s basically recession proof. This wealth is going to transfer. We need sophisticated, knowledgeable trustees. on the receiving end of that transfer so that it happens correctly. Frazer Rice (57:56.578)I’d go so far as to say financial advisors. I just gotta say, a CFP is useful, CFA is on your investment side, but something like this, you know so much more about how intergenerational wealth works than what’s happening in those particular situations that I think it helps people stand out when I see something like that on a resume. Jennifer Zelvin McCloskey (58:00.302) “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges”That’s all the podcast. I hear you. I hear you. Frazer Rice (58:24.386) “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges”All right, with that, Jennifer, it’s great to catch up and I will have all of your information on the show notes and I will either see you at the ITA conference in Dallas or what I’m down in Delaware next. More Around “THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges” BUILDING A TRUST COMPANY TENNESSEE AS A JURISDICTION DIRECTED TRUSTEES DELAWARE WELL BEING TRUST THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Actually-Intelligent-Decision-Making-1-ebook/dp/B07FPQJJQT/ Keywords for THE TRUSTEE CRISIS: Navigating the Challenges trusteeship, wealth transfer, trust management, fiduciary duties, trust education, estate planning, risk management, trust administration, individual trustees, trust companies, the trustee crisis, navigating the challenges, the great wealth transfer,

In the final hour Jeff reads his letter to Julia and then is reminded why we miss ol' Uncle Joe.

In this powerful Q&A episode, Uncle Joe and I tackle one of the most common — and emotionally charged — challenges men face: feeling disrespected by their wives and not knowing how to respond without escalating the situation. We unpack why reacting in anger never works, why most men were never taught conflict resolution skills, and how to move from emotional reactivity to grounded leadership.   Uncle Joe also shares his raw personal story — three failed marriages, a radical transformation in faith, and what it really means to earn respect instead of demanding it. If you've ever struggled with triggers, short fuses, or feeling misunderstood at home, this episode will give you both tactical tools and deeper perspective.     Timeline Summary [1:02] Reintroducing Uncle Joe and the story behind his name [4:11] Three failed marriages and the transformation that followed  [10:59] The marriage question: What do you do when you feel disrespected?  [15:52] Why most men were never taught conflict resolution  [18:23] Fighting for what you don't want vs. clearly stating what you do want  [19:58] Creating rules of engagement for healthy conflict  [22:13] Knowing your triggers and lengthening your fuse  [28:27] Respect is earned through leadership, not demanded  [31:57] Real peace isn't the absence of chaos — it's stability in the storm      Five Key Takeaways Most men were never taught healthy conflict resolution — it's a skill you must intentionally learn. When you argue for what you don't want, you create more confusion — clarity changes everything. Emotional triggers are rarely just about your spouse — they're often tied to your own story. Respect in marriage grows when you lead consistently and earn trust daily. Real peace is developed internally — not dependent on external calm.       Links & Resources Roommates to Soulmates Cohort & Preview Call: https://thedadedge.com/soulmates Episode Link & Resources: https://thedadedge.com/1447   Closing   If you're struggling with triggers, short fuses, or feeling disrespected at home — don't ignore it and don't explode over it.   Learn the skill. Do the work. Lead first.   If this episode helped you, make sure you rate, review, follow, and share it with another dad who needs it.   Go out and live legendary.

Over the last week, Southern California lost of the of the great DJs, "Uncle" Joe Benson. Uncle Joe was on KLSX, The Sound, Arrow and 95.5 KLOS. Rita and CW Both worked with Joe for many years. Unfortunately the mystery of life moved Joe onto different pastures in the past week. This is just a very brief show talking about how Joe includenced not only Rita and CW, but the radio listeners.  If you are interested in some of the other interviews we did with DJs that Rita and CW worked with, we suggest that you listen to our show with KLOS' morning show: Mark and Brian or our show with the legendary Steve Downes.  More radio shows can be found on YouTube or where every you find great podcasts!  

Memories of J.C. Holdway from his sister, Juanita Holdway Evans; Chef Joseph Lenn; and her daughter, Emily Lenn. Fred Saucepan shares Joe and Janette Carter's Chow Chow recipe and kitchen memories. Today, I went to the deep freeze and pulled out a recording that I made in 2016 with Chef Joseph Lenn, Joseph's mother (Emily Lenn), and a late friend of mine, Juanita Evans, who was Joseph Lenn's grandmother and the sister of J.C. Holdway. J.C. Holdway is the namesake of the downtown Knoxville restaurant created by Chef Joseph Lenn and named after his Uncle Joe. The restaurant, J.C. Holdway, has been in the news lately, receiving the prestigious designation of “Recommended” by the renowned Michelin Guide in its inaugural regional publication of restaurants in the Southeast. Chef Lenn is also a James Beard Award–winning chef. I thought it would be a great time to play this recording we made together before he opened his restaurant. I (Amy Campbell) am an artist, and I wanted to paint a portrait of Uncle Joe as a kind of encouraging gift to Chef Lenn before the restaurant was created. You may have seen that painting, along with my portraits of Allan Benton, Eugenia Duke, Bill Best, and John Coykendall at J.C. Holdway.Keep scrolling to see those images below. We also hear a recording by Fred Saucepan with memories from Janette and Joe Carter (children of A.P. and Sara Carter of the original band The Carter Family) as he shares their recipe for Chow Chow.

In this Q&A episode, Uncle Joe and I dive into one of the most common—and misunderstood—struggles in marriage: emotional connection. We respond to a powerful question from Alex, a husband who genuinely wants to show up better for his wife but feels stuck, unsure how to respond to her emotions, and frustrated that his efforts don't seem to land.   This conversation breaks down why men default to "fix-it mode," why that instinct actually creates disconnection, and how emotional safety—not solutions—is what most women are truly seeking. We unpack practical, real-world skills for listening, validating, and reconnecting with your wife, especially after years of habit and complacency. If your wife has ever said, "I don't feel connected to you," this episode will give you clarity, direction, and a better way forward.     Timeline Summary [0:00] Introduction [1:02] Opening conversation about Valentine's Day and intentional connection [2:55] Alex's question about building emotional connection with his wife [4:10] Hearing hard feedback: "I don't feel connected or loved" [5:14] How long-term habits quietly shape marriage dynamics [6:03] Why men feel uncomfortable with big emotions [7:12] The difference between fixing problems and creating connection [8:10] Why women share emotions—to feel seen, not saved [9:00] Transactional conversations vs. emotional safety [10:14] Joe explains why feedback is actually a gift [10:59] Pebbles vs. boulders and minimizing your wife's feelings [11:56] Why "it's not a big deal" damages trust [12:17] Understanding how your wife feels loved [13:19] Acts of service and practical ways to reduce her stress [14:11] Real-life example of how small actions rebuild connection [15:19] Curiosity as the foundation of emotional intimacy [16:46] Leading with humility and listening through awkward silence [17:31] Treating your wife like you did when you first dated [19:02] Complacency as the silent killer of attraction [20:13] Why long-term relationships require intentional effort [21:09] Being challenged as an act of love [22:11] Brotherhood, faith, and the mission of the Dad Edge Alliance [23:08] Invitation to the Dad Edge Alliance preview call [23:47] Closing encouragement and next steps     Five Key Takeaways Emotional connection is built through presence, not problem-solving. Fixing minimizes feelings—listening creates safety. What feels small to you may feel huge to your wife. Curiosity and humility rebuild intimacy faster than tactics. Treating your wife like you did in the beginning keeps the relationship alive.     Links & Resources Dad Edge Alliance Preview Call (RSVP): http://thedadedge.com/preview Dad Edge Alliance (Marriage, Parenting, Health, Leadership): https://thedadedge.com/alliance Episode Show Notes & Resources: https://thedadedge.com/1438     Closing Remark If this episode gave you language or perspective you didn't have before, please rate, review, follow, and share the podcast. Emotional connection isn't about being perfect—it's about being present, curious, and consistent. From my heart to yours, go out and live legendary.

In this live Q&A episode, Uncle Joe and I tackle some of the heaviest—and most common—situations men face inside marriage: supporting a wife through serious mental health challenges, staying grounded when divorce is still on the table, and learning how to lead with consistency instead of panic.   We respond to real questions from men inside the Dad Edge Alliance who are walking through postpartum depression, PMDD, emotional volatility, and marital uncertainty. This conversation is about becoming an advocate instead of a victim, choosing consistency over crisis-mode behavior, and learning how to lead yourself well—regardless of whether your marriage outcome is guaranteed. If you're in a season where hope feels thin and the work feels exhausting, this episode will remind you what leadership actually looks like when things are hard.     Timeline Summary [000] Opening reflections on fatherhood, sleepless nights, and perspective [3:18] Setting expectations for live Q&A and imperfect conversations [4:41] Corey's question: supporting a wife with postpartum depression and PMDD [6:19] Understanding PMDD as a hormonal sensitivity disorder [8:33] Why mood shifts are not character flaws or choices [9:58] Becoming an advocate instead of minimizing mental health struggles [11:05] Practical leadership: nutrition, structure, and reducing stress [12:25] Why a man's emotional and spiritual health matters most in crisis [13:10] Research on spiritual disciplines and emotional regulation [14:11] Becoming a "merchant of hope" in your household [15:00] Why men must take care of their inner world first [16:02] Corey shares his early experience inside the Dad Edge Alliance [17:02] Playing the long game and resisting discouragement [18:07] Using brotherhood instead of isolation [18:48] Announcement: Dad Edge Alliance preview call [20:15] Where to find episode resources and symptom notes [21:05] Second question: staying consistent while divorce is still mentioned [24:56] Identifying behaviors that contributed to marital breakdown [26:04] Why wives wait to see if change is real [27:16] Consistency as a non-negotiable value [28:46] Doing the work regardless of outcome [31:01] Why self-led change benefits you no matter what [32:24] Showing up as a grounded, playful, present father [33:37] Why it often gets worse before it gets better     Five Key Takeaways Mental health struggles are not character flaws, and leadership starts with education and empathy. Consistency builds trust, especially when a spouse is waiting for the "other shoe to drop." Men must do the work for themselves first, not as a strategy to save a marriage. Hope is contagious, but only if the man leading the home is grounded and regulated. Brotherhood prevents isolation, especially when marriage feels uncertain.   Links & Resources Dad Edge Alliance Preview Call (RSVP): https://thedadedge.com/preview Dad Edge Alliance (Marriage, Parenting, Health, Leadership): https://thedadedge.com/alliance All Episode Notes & Symptom Resources (Google Doc): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_4GeLtmhvbZg-ZzKvBWQyz5aneCcHCYOYfD-r0uzNnE/edit?usp=sharing Episode Show Notes & Resources: https://thedadedge.com/1435     Closing Remark If you're walking through a season where leadership feels heavy and outcomes feel uncertain, remember this: your consistency, integrity, and growth still matter. Thank you for being men who show up, ask hard questions, and refuse to drift. From my heart to yours—keep going, and live legendary.

Connecting with teenage daughters can feel like trying to break through a locked door—especially when rejection, distance, and silence start to replace the closeness you once had. In this Q&A episode, I'm joined by Uncle Joe as we tackle two deeply relatable questions from dads who are doing their best but feel stuck, unsure, and disconnected.   We dive into what it really takes to win a teenage daughter's heart without forcing connection, why consistency matters more than instant results, and how dads can stop taking rejection personally while still staying emotionally available. We also address marriage and money decisions, showing how curiosity, values, and asking better questions can transform conflict into teamwork. This episode is packed with wisdom, reassurance, and practical strategies for dads who refuse to give up on their kids or their marriage.     Timeline Summary [0:00] Welcoming listeners to the final Q&A episode of January 2026 [2:37] A dad's question about connecting with his 14-year-old daughter [4:10] Why teenage girls often pull away during adolescence [4:33] Recommended reading: Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters [5:12] Learning what matters to your daughter to win her heart [6:35] Why genuine interest builds emotional safety [7:16] Consistency over comfort when facing rejection [8:08] Not internalizing rejection from teenage daughters [8:57] How facial expressions communicate disappointment [9:15] "Aim for the heart" and understanding a child's unique wiring [10:19] Engaging with your daughter's interests without trying to be "cool" [11:21] Alliance member perspective on grit and perseverance [12:37] Why daughters notice effort even when they don't respond [13:03] Dr. Lisa Damour's insights on never giving up [14:08] Why your daughter will remember whether you stayed or quit [15:11] Second question: marriage, money, and trust [16:34] How "telling" shuts down conversations with your wife [17:08] Leading with curiosity instead of control [18:10] Asking questions that invite reflection and teamwork [19:36] Validating your wife's values before problem-solving [21:11] Enabling vs. empowering family members [23:23] Using shared family values as a decision-making framework [26:18] Why aligned values reduce conflict in marriage [29:18] Faith, provision, and living out core values [30:57] Resources for dads raising teenagers [31:16] Where to find all episode links and next steps     Five Key Takeaways Winning a teenage daughter's heart requires consistency, not instant validation.  Rejection isn't personal—it's developmental, and dads must stay steady through it.  Genuine curiosity builds connection far more than control or correction.  Asking better questions reduces marriage conflict, especially around money and family decisions.  Shared values create clarity, alignment, and peace in family decision-making.      Links & Resources Guiding Teenage Girls Into Adulthood (Dad Edge Episode): https://thedadedge.com/guiding-teenage-girls-into-adulthood-with-dr-lisa-damour/ Dr. Lisa Damour Website: https://drlisadamour.com/ Dr. Lisa Damour on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lisa.damour/ Dr. Lisa Damour on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSt8mu1taNYAHTufbYwqglFHoevbZgNQl Dr. Lisa Damour on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/Ldamour Dr. Lisa Damour on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lisadamourphd Dr. Lisa Damour Podcast: https://drlisadamour.com/resources/podcast/ How to Manage a Meltdown (PDF): https://drlisadamour.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/LD_Bookmarks_How_to_Manage_a_Meltdown.pdf Meg Meeker on The Dad Edge Podcast: https://thedadedge.com/meg-meeker/ Episode Show Notes & Resources: https://thedadedge.com/1432   Closing Remark If this episode encouraged you to stay the course with your kids or approach your marriage with more curiosity and patience, please rate, review, follow, and share the podcast. Your consistency today becomes your children's security tomorrow. Go out and live legendary.

In this Q&A episode, I'm joined once again by Uncle Joe for a deep, honest conversation around one of the most painful places a man can find himself—feeling unwanted, disconnected, and hopeless in his marriage. We respond to a question from a husband who hasn't felt physical or emotional connection from his wife in over two years, and we unpack what really breaks down in marriages long before intimacy disappears.   This conversation goes far beyond surface-level advice. We talk about why most men were never trained for marriage, how resentment quietly builds, why treating marriage like a contract destroys connection, and how changing your internal narrative can shift everything. We also bring in perspectives from men inside the Dad Edge Alliance to show how humility, coachability, and intentional skill-building can restore trust, safety, and leadership at home. If your marriage feels distant or stuck, this episode offers clarity, hope, and a path forward.     Timeline Summary [0:00] Welcoming listeners to the third Q&A episode of January 2026 [1:19] Uncle Joe returns and the power of community-driven wisdom [2:13] Introducing a listener's marriage question about rejection and hopelessness [2:55] Why only 12% of married couples report feeling deeply connected [3:33] Asking the most important question: what have you actually learned about marriage? [4:26] Joe reflects on personal failure, divorce, and hard-earned lessons [5:14] Why hope exists if attraction once existed [5:35] How complacency and busyness quietly push marriage to the back burner [6:02] Marriage compared to learning an instrument—you can't wing it [7:21] Resentment, skill gaps, and whether marriages can truly be restored [8:05] Marriage as a covenant, not a contract [8:55] How destructive inner narratives shape behavior and connection [9:43] Transactional expectations and why they kill intimacy [10:41] Why "nice guy" energy erodes respect and attraction [11:30] Listening to understand instead of listening to defend [12:12] Mutual submission, humility, and shared leadership in marriage [13:15] Alliance member insight on asking for feedback from your wife [14:16] Faith, unity, and intentionally doing life together [15:49] Receiving feedback without ego or defensiveness [17:14] Emotional bank accounts and the power of daily deposits [18:50] Gottman's 5:1 and 10:1 ratios for healthy marriages [19:40] Giving your wife permission to coach you [20:45] Why conflict isn't the enemy—avoidance is [22:00] Reframing the role of a wife as a strengthener, not a subordinate [23:17] "It's not me vs. you, it's us vs. the problem" [23:43] Larry shares a personal season of anger and choosing humility [25:16] How couples can build something better than what they had before [25:51] Episode wrap-up and where to find resources     Five Key Takeaways Most men were never taught how to lead a marriage, and guessing your way through it creates disconnection.  Marriage breaks down through narratives and resentment long before intimacy disappears.  Treating marriage like a covenant—not a contract—changes everything.  Emotional deposits made consistently rebuild trust and safety over time.  When couples unite against the problem instead of each other, restoration becomes possible.      Links & Resources Dad Edge Alliance: https://thedadedge.com/alliance The Legendary Marriage Book: https://thedadedge.com/legendarybook Episode Show Notes & Resources: https://thedadedge.com/1429     Closing Remark If this episode resonated with where you're at in your marriage, please rate, review, follow, and share the podcast. You don't have to figure this out alone—skill-building, humility, and brotherhood can change the direction of your marriage and your family. From my heart to yours, go out and live legendary.

We're kicking off a brand-new year with something many of you have asked for—the return of our live Q&A episodes. In this conversation, I'm joined once again by Uncle Joe as we answer real questions from men inside our community about parenting, connection with daughters, discipline, stoicism, faith, and leadership at home.   This episode goes deep. We talk about building trust with kids who feel distant, why saying "no" too often damages connection, how fathers can lead without demanding reciprocity, and the difference between white-knuckling life versus living from identity. If you're a dad who wants deeper relationships with your kids and clarity around leadership, faith, and emotional presence, this episode will challenge and ground you.   Timeline Summary [0:00] Welcoming listeners to the 11th year of The Dad Edge Podcast. [1:37] Reflection on longevity, gratitude, and why this work still matters. [1:59] Announcement: Roommates to Soulmates eight-week course starting January 14. [2:19] What men will learn in the Roommates to Soulmates marriage training. [2:42] RSVP details for the January 7 preview call. [3:07] Welcoming Uncle Joe back to the show. [3:39] Listener question about connecting with daughters at different developmental stages. [5:14] Joe shares his experience raising three daughters. [6:33] Loving kids without expecting emotional reciprocation. [7:16] Why trust—not control—is the foundation of fatherhood. [8:08] Changing the default answer from "no" to "yes." [9:19] Joe shares the powerful "father promise ring" moment with his daughter. [10:41] Why fathers must make covenants to their kids—not demand them. [12:26] Larry shares his struggle connecting with his youngest son. [13:26] Letting kids lead connection through their interests. [14:12] Hiking, martial arts, and intentional one-on-one time. [15:19] Creating unique rituals with each child. [16:03] Capturing small moments for deep emotional connection. [18:12] Invitation to join the Dad Edge Alliance for live support and brotherhood. [19:51] Listener question about stoicism and discipline. [21:27] Larry explains why he moved away from stoicism. [22:29] Joe breaks down the appeal—and danger—of half-truths in stoicism. [24:07] White-knuckling life vs. living from identity. [25:00] Faith, identity, and emotional regulation. [27:28] Comparing stoicism with surrender and relationship-based leadership. [29:05] Psalm 23 and why dependence beats self-mastery. [31:30] Filtering wisdom through Scripture and lived experience. [34:41] How suffering builds empathy and leadership capacity. [35:19] Final thoughts, gratitude, and where to find resources.     Five Key Takeaways Connection with kids is built through trust, consistency, and presence—not control.  Fathers must lead relationships without demanding emotional repayment.  White-knuckling discipline leads to exhaustion; identity-based leadership leads to peace.  Kids feel deeply seen when dads meet them inside their interests.  True strength comes from surrender, faith, and relational grounding—not self-reliance alone.      Links & Resources Dad Edge Mastermind & Alliance: https://thedadedge.com/mastermind Roommates to Soulmates Course: https://thedadedge.com/soulmates Episode Show Notes & Resources: https://thedadedge.com/1423     Closing Remark   If this episode encouraged you, challenged your thinking, or gave you practical tools to lead better at home, please rate, review, follow, and share the podcast. These conversations matter—and your support helps us reach more men who are committed to becoming better fathers, husbands, and leaders.

In the final episode of 2025, I take time to reflect, express deep gratitude, and share what's coming next for The Dad Edge as we head into 2026. This episode is about honoring what this community has built together over the past ten years, celebrating the wins, and casting a clear vision for what's ahead for men who want to lead their families with intention.   I walk you through several major announcements—from the return of Wednesday Q&A with Uncle Joe, to our brand-new Dad Edge Alliance membership platform, upcoming marriage and health initiatives, and powerful in-person experiences like Men's Forge. This episode is both a thank-you and a rallying cry for men who are ready to step into the next year with clarity, purpose, and brotherhood.     Timeline Summary: [0:00] Welcoming listeners and reflecting on the final episode of 2025. [1:23] Celebrating 10 full years of podcasting and the growth of The Dad Edge. [1:41] Gratitude for listeners, downloads, and being ranked #1 again. [2:22] Why fatherhood, marriage, and family are the most important work we do. [2:56] A heartfelt thank-you to the community for showing up all year. [3:13] Announcement: Wednesday Q&A episodes return with Uncle Joe in 2026. [3:49] How to submit your questions for the Q&A episodes via email. [4:06] Introducing the brand-new Dad Edge Alliance membership site. [4:49] Why moving away from Facebook, Slack, and WhatsApp changed everything. [5:24] Weekly call teams and global time-zone support for members. [5:47] January focus inside the Alliance: marriage, parenting, vitality, and money. [6:26] February marriage training focused on intimacy, passion, and connection. [6:44] Partnership with 1st Phorm and upcoming health initiatives. [7:18] Announcement of the 8-week transformation challenge starting February 1. [7:55] Coaching, accountability, and community inside the challenge. [8:54] Information call for the Roommates to Soulmates live course. [9:14] What the Roommates to Soulmates course will teach men about marriage. [10:02] Larry shares his personal experience with marriage disconnection. [10:39] Men's Forge announcement with Ryan Michler and Order of Man. [11:01] Event dates, speakers, and why nearly everyone returned from last year. [11:56] "Bring a Brother" and "Bring a Son" ticket options. [12:12] Why exposing teenage sons to intentional masculinity matters. [13:10] Announcing the December Dad Edge 1st Phorm Man of the Month. [13:55] Recognizing Shay Chase for leadership and health coaching impact. [14:39] Directing listeners to the full show notes and resources. [15:01] Final thank-you and encouragement heading into 2026.     Five Key Takeaways: Intentional fatherhood creates generational impact, and this community exists to raise the standard for men.  Brotherhood and accountability matter, especially when men are navigating marriage, parenting, health, and finances.  Marriage requires skill-building and leadership, not passive hope that things will improve.  Physical health fuels leadership at home, and structured challenges create momentum and consistency.  The next year can look different if men commit to standards, community, and intentional action.      Links & Resources Dad Edge Alliance Membership: https://thedadedge.com Roommates to Soulmates Course: https://thedadedge.com/soulmates 1st Phorm Partnership: https://1stphorm.com/dadedge Episode Show Notes & Resources: https://thedadedge.com/1421     Closing Remark Gentlemen, thank you for an incredible 2025. Thank you for showing up, doing the work, and choosing to lead your families with intention. My hope is that we bring even more men to this table in 2026 so we can continue to change lives, marriages, and families for the better. Go out and live legendary.

And you said there's nothing to get your Uncle Joe!!! Evan has planned a perfect for gift for all Mets fans. Whether it's for your mom, dad, kids, uncles, cousins, or just yourself. Get ready for the 2026 Mets season on the road. The Rewatch Episode is returning. This year we will have two rewatches. The first will take us all the way back to 1986, Game 6 of the World Series. To rewatch follow the link • 1986 World Series, Game 6: Red Sox @ Mets Please like, rate, follow, favorite or subscribe to Rico Brogna here: ⁠https://link.chtbl.com/RicoBrogna⁠ Email TheRicoB@gmail.com To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whitney is fired up about Oprah's recent podcast about going no contact. She also responds to a Mel Robbins/Karl Pillemer article titled "Life is Too Short to Fight With Your Family." She breaks down why these narratives are harmful, who they're really speaking to (and who they're ignoring), and the problematic assumptions embedded in questions like "where did you get this idea from?” Whitney challenges the toxic positivity of telling people to accept mistreatment from family, questions why we're not writing these articles to Uncle Joe who's being racist at Thanksgiving, and explains why "just accept and move on" advice completely misses the mark.Oprah's podcast: Oprah Explores the Rising Trend of Going No Contact with Your FamilyMel Robbin and Karl Pillemer article: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/26/opinion/thanksgiving-family-fighting.html Whitney Goodman is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT) and the founder of Calling Home, a membership community that helps people navigate complex family dynamics and break harmful cycles. Have a question for Whitney? Send a voice memo or email to whitney@callinghome.co Join the Family Cyclebreakers Club⁠⁠ Follow Whitney on Instagram | sitwithwhit Follow Whitney on YouTube | @whitneygoodmanlmft ⁠⁠Order Whitney's book, Toxic Positivity Learn more about ad choices. Visit podcast.choices.com/adchoices This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice. 03:31 Oprah's podcast 45:05 The Mel Robbins' NYT article 58:15 Taking a break in December Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Covino & Rich laugh about Uncle Joe's botched Tickle Me Elmo scheme! 'MIKE'S WORDS OF WISDOM' looks for a winner & they talk Bad Bunny. Was Devin Williams 'broken' by Pete Alonso & now joins him on same team? Plus, 'MID WEAK MAJOR,' & LeBron's double-digit streak causes debate! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this podventure, we discuss the episode “The Last Shall be First,” in which Connie tries to convince Uncle Joe that he isn't too old for church, and Jimmy learns a lesson in fairness. Also, a real smoothie, soda discovery fountain emporium, and the stock market.Editor's Note: Due to some water damage on my computer that necessitated a two week stint at the repair shop, this episode is posting a teensy bit late. Thank you for your patience!

The holiday season is a time for joy, connection… and let's be honest, a whole lot of pie. From pecan to pumpkin to the classic apple pie, our plates tend to get fuller as the year winds down. On a recent Late Night Health interview, host Mark Allen sat down with Pamela Nisevich Bede — six-time author, marathoner, and nutrition expert with Abbott's Lingo program — to talk about how to enjoy holiday favorites without derailing your health goals.  Pamela explains that while overindulging is common this time of year, you don't have to choose between celebration and wellness. Turkey, for example, is a great source of lean protein, and many holiday dishes can be enjoyed guilt-free with just a little strategy. One of her most surprising tips? What you eat first matters. Starting your meal with vegetables, protein, and healthy fats can help stabilize your glucose before digging into carb-heavy favorites. Mood also plays a big role during holiday gatherings — especially when navigating family dynamics. Pamela notes that mood is closely tied to glucose stability. By keeping blood sugar steady, you're better able to stay focused, energized, and emotionally balanced (even when Uncle Joe pushes your buttons).  A new tool making this easier is Lingo by Abbott, an over-the-counter continuous glucose monitor that helps you understand how foods affect your body in real time. No prescription needed. With Lingo, she says, people can “take the guesswork out of wellness” and see what actually works for their unique metabolism.   And yes — you can still enjoy dessert. Pamela recommends taking a 10–20 minute walk after that slice of pie. Your muscles will use the incoming glucose for fuel, helping keep your energy up instead of sending you straight to the couch for an after-dinner nap.   To learn more, visit HelloLingo.com. #HolidayHealth #HealthyHolidays #NutritionTips #GlucoseHealth #LingoByAbbott #WellnessJourney #HolidayEating #LateNightHealth Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/late-night-health-radio--2804369/support.

BravoCon weekend has finally arrived and we will be covering it all weekend. But first, Kathy Griffin reveals shocking never before heard info about Andy Cohen and we just cannot get enough. Gia and Uncle Joe and Luis and Joe and the whole rest of the clan come forward with moves we never saw coming now that the reconciliation plan is in full effect.  BravoCon RHONJ tea emerges. Denise Richards' ex, despite facing jail time, still wants all her money. Margaret has some harsh words for Teresa. VPR's second coming is in full effect and so very much more. As we said, BravoCon weekend has finally arrived. @behindvelvetrope @davidyontef Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Memories of J.C. Holdway from his sister, Juanita Holdway Evans; Chef Joseph Lenn; and her daughter, Emily Lenn. Fred Saucepan shares Joe and Janette Carter's Chow Chow recipe and kitchen memories. Today, I went to the deep freeze and pulled out a recording that I made in 2016 with Chef Joseph Lenn, Joseph's mother (Emily Lenn), and a late friend of mine, Juanita Evans, who was Joseph Lenn's grandmother and the sister of J.C. Holdway. J.C. Holdway is the namesake of the downtown Knoxville restaurant created by Chef Joseph Lenn and named after his Uncle Joe. The restaurant, J.C. Holdway, has been in the news lately, receiving the prestigious designation of “Recommended” by the renowned Michelin Guide in its inaugural regional publication of restaurants in the Southeast.
Chef Lenn is also a James Beard Award–winning chef. I thought it would be a great time to play this recording we made together before he opened his restaurant. I am an artist, and I wanted to paint a portrait of Uncle Joe as a kind of encouraging gift to Chef Lenn before the restaurant was created. You may have seen that painting, along with my portraits of Allan Benton, Eugenia Duke, Bill Best, and John Coykendall at J.C. Holdway. We also hear a recording by Fred Saucepan with memories from Janette and Joe Carter (children of A.P. and Sara Carter of the original band The Carter Family) as he shares their recipe for Chow Chow. And I share news of the Resilient Farmer Fund fundraiser concert tonight (Nov. 15, 2025) at the Paramount Theatre in Bristol, TN/VA. Doors open at 6, and music starts at 7 p.m.

48 Hours correspondent Anne-Marie Green and CBS News correspondent Nikki Battiste discuss the case of Joe Shymanski, who was reported missing by his ex-wife, Heather Snyder. His remains were later found near the home of Heather's ex-boyfriend, Brandon Holbrook. In a strange twist, Nikki shares that she grew up with Heather, what it was like to reunite with her for an exclusive interview, and the jury's reaction to Heather pleading the fifth at Holbrook's trial. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A young woman mourns her uncle's murder…and questions whether the convicted killer was the only one involved.  Nikki Battiste reports. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part one of this two-part episode, retired agent Donnie Brasco reviews his career navigating as an FBI agent with his infamous name and following in the footsteps of his uncle, legendary undercover agent Joe Pistone. Until now, most people were unaware of Donnie and Joe's family ties. I call it the worst-kept secret in the FBI. Joe drops in at the end of the episode to share why he chose the name "Donnie Brasco" for his alias. Donnie served in the FBI for 21 years. Check out episode show notes, photos, and related articles:  https://jerriwilliams.com/367-donnie-brasco-following-in-the-footsteps-of-uncle-joe-pistone-part-1/ Join my Reader Team to get the FBI Reading Resource - Books about the FBI, written by FBI agents, the 20 clichés about the FBI Reality Checklist, and to keep up to date on the FBI in books, TV, and movies via my monthly email. Join here. http://eepurl.com/dzCCmL  Buy me a coffee - https://www.buymeacoffee.com/JerriWilliams   Check out my FBI books, non-fiction and crime fiction, available as audiobooks, ebooks and paperbacks wherever books are sold. https://jerriwilliams.com/books/

John-David's world is turned upside down by the sudden loss of his beloved Uncle Joe, so Uncle Si, Martin, and Godwin show up in the most powerful ways—from covering John-David's shifts at the tackle shop to sharing stories, hugs, prayers, and plenty of tears. Si reflects on how faith gives us hope beyond the grave, and the boys are inspired to live the kind of life that's worth celebrating on both sides of eternity. Duck Call Room episode #448 is sponsored by: https://puretalk.com/duck — Get a FREE Samsung Galaxy phone with qualifying plan when you switch to Pure Talk! https://factormeals.com/duck50off — Get 50% off plus FREE shipping on your first box when you use code duck50off at checkout. Visit https://shopbeam.com/DUCK and use code DUCK to get our exclusive discount of up to 35% off. https://fastgrowingtrees.com/duck — Save up to half-off on select plants and use code DUCK at checkout to get an additional 15% off! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices