Podcast appearances and mentions of max mutchnick

"Mid-Century Modern" is a new American comedy television series created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan that stars Nathan Lane, Matt Bomer, Linda Lavin, and Nathan Lee Graham. It tells the story of three gay best friends of a certain age, after an unexpected death, who move in together in Palm Springs, California. Living with the wealthiest friend's mother, they navigate their golden years as a chosen family, supporting each other through life's challenges. It has received positive reviews, and the first ten episodes are now available to stream. Nathan Lee Graham was kind enough to spend some time speaking with us about his work and experience making the series, which you can listen to below. Please be sure to check out the show, which is now available to stream on Hulu and Disney+. Thank you, and enjoy! Check out more on NextBestPicture.com Please subscribe on... Apple Podcasts - https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/negs-best-film-podcast/id1087678387?mt=2 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7IMIzpYehTqeUa1d9EC4jT YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWA7KiotcWmHiYYy6wJqwOw And be sure to help support us on Patreon for as little as $1 a month at https://www.patreon.com/NextBestPicture and listen to this podcast ad-free Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Mandy Brooke is a multifaceted entertainer is a powerhouse singer/songwriter, actress, podcast host, and hilarious social media creator with a resume that leaves people wondering, & What can't this girl do? Mandy (@MandyBrookeOfficial) is a bonafide social media sensation, garnering millions of views across platforms with her hilarious song parodies and everyday antics!  Her relatable comedy and unique style has inspired people all over the world to be their most authentic self, earning her TWO appearances on TODAY with Hoda & Jenna, and countless mentions from the likes of Khloe Kardashian, Ludacris, Lil Jon, Lil Wayne, SZA, Jay Sean and many more!  I met Mandy through social media where we became fangirls of each other's work and bonded over the fact that as we were both going through divorces, we used social media to bring us and others Joy and Mandy joined me on my book tour as a visting professor of my happiness lab and she created a song about Anhedonia. You won't want to miss this incredible joyful episode of The Vault.“You're a fantastic comic. A true original.” - Max Mutchnick (creator of “Will & Grace”) Mandy Brookes prolific entertainment career began as a teenager singing and performing in venues across Florida.  After signing her first song publishing deal, she pursued a music career in Nashville, TN where she became a sought-after studio session vocalist and songwriter.  Her credits include; USA Network, FOX, Warner Chappell PM, Sony Music, and Lorrie Morgans Red Hot Jingles.  Mandy has recently released several viral comedy singles including, Orthopedic Hoe The Pickle Song most notably, Sides Bitch (Thanksgiving Rap)" further solidifying her place in the world of musical comedy. Mandys original podcast, Broken Bitches Guide with Mandy Brooke, seamlessly blends her delightful humor with heartfelt wisdom, offering listeners a surprisingly different side to this hilarious internet personality, fearlessly diving into diverse self-help topics with the intention of helping women transmute their brokenness into power. As an actress and model, Mandy has appeared in commercial, film and print ads for Fireball Whisky, Viasox, and was featured in Netflixs A Week Away; with several leading and principal roles in indie films. Mandy Brooke currently resides in Central Florida as she continues cultivating her growing fanbase and promising entertainment career.. How can I cope with anxiety? How to cope with depression? How to find purpose? How to use the 5 Vs in the workplace. What are the tools to cope with stressful situations? What ways to advocate for your mental health? How can lean on my community? How to Cope with High Functioning Depression.Follow Dr. Judith:Instagram: https://instagram.com/drjudithjoseph TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drjudithjoseph Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drjudithjoseph Website: https://www.drjudithjoseph.com/Sign up for my newsletter here: https://www.drjudithjoseph.com/newsletter-sign-upDisclaimer: You may want to consider your individual mental health needs with a licensed medical professional. This page is not medical advice.

Q&A on Mid-Century Modern with creators & showrunners Max Mutchnik and David Kohan. Moderated by Mara Webster, In Creative Company. Mid-Century Modern is an American comedy television series created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan that premiered on Hulu on March 28, 2025. It stars Nathan Lane, Matt Bomer, Linda Lavin, and Nathan Lee Graham.

More Liane Moriarty and more Guy Ritchie this week, and the creators of Will and Grace are back with a new comedy. • The Last Anniversary (Binge/Foxtel, 6 episodes) The latest Liane Moriarty adaption for the small screen from the same team who also worked on Big Little Lies and Nine Perfect Strangers. Filmed on the Hawksebury River north of Sydney with an impressive Australian cast plus Miranda Richardson. • MobLand (Paramount+, 10 episodes) Another British crime drama featuring two warring families. Created by Ronan Bennett who adapted the TV series The Day of the Jackal. Pierce Brosnan and Helen Mirren star with great support from Tom Hardy and Anton Boon among many others. • Mid-Century Modern (Disney+) 10 episodes Nathan Lane stars in this sitcom about three gay best-friends who move in together in Palm Springs. Created by Will and Grace’s David Kohan and Max Mutchnick, with veteran James Borrows directing. Lane’s co-stars are Linda Lavin in her final role before he death during production, Matt Bomer and Nathan Lee Graham. We also have a look at new streaming platform Max and Andrew has returned to 80s classic Moonlighting.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Will & Grace co-creators David Kohan and Max Mutchnick are back with a throwback multi-cam sitcom that isn't Gay Golden Girls, but isn't NOT Gay Golden Girls. Would we travel down the road and back again for more? Joe Reid joins us to talk about it. Around The Dial takes us through Last One Laughing UK, Shrinking, Adolescence, The Pitt, and Gone Girls. Joe pitches the Simpsons episode "Simpsoncalifragilisticexpiala(Annoyed Grunt)cious" for induction into the Nonac. Then, after naming the week's Winner and Loser, it's on to a Game Time that's more hard work than usual. Put down the cottage cheese and listen! GUESTS

A gay Golden Girls? Say more! While Hulu's new show Mid-Century Modern is not the Golden Girls, it certainly gives you the nostalgia love bug for the Golden Girls. Because of that, we asked the show's stars Nathan Lane, Matt Bomer and Nathan Lee Graham which Golden Girl they are.  We also compared the pilot of the Golden Girls to Mid-Century Modern, because both are brilliant.  Listen to H. Alan Scott's full chat with Nathan, Nathan Lee and Matt on Newsweek's Parting Shot. You can also listen to his bonus chat with the creator's of the show, Max Mutchnick and David Kohan.  LISTEN: https://www.newsweek.com/2025/04/04/mid-century-modern-isnt-gay-golden-girls-they-get-why-youd-think-that-2049592.html Join the GG VIP Club at Patreon.com/GoldenGirlsPodcast Watch video versions of the podcast on YouTube.com/OutonTheLanai For more Golden Girls greatness, visit OutOnTheLanai.com and follow us at... instagram.com/OutOnTheLanaiOfficial facebook.com/GoldenGirlsPodcast twitter.com/GoldenGirlsPod FOLLOW H. ALAN SCOTT/SADIE PINES... instagram.com/SadiePines instagram.com/HAlanScott linktr.ee/HAlanScott FOLLOW KERRI DOHERTY... instagram.com/squidsy twitter.com/SquidEatSquid Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this bonus episode, Will & Grace creators, Max Mutchnick and David Kohan, chat with Newsweek's H. Alan Scott about how Mid-Century Modern came about, how a dinner with Ryan Murphy started it all, and the way Linda Lavin's sudden passing during production impacted the new Hulu series. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

When Will & Grace premiered on NBC in 1998, it was groundbreaking because of the sheer lack of queer representation on network TV. Since then, numerous sitcoms have increased LGBTQ+ visibility on TV, but rarely gay characters of an older generation. To fill that void, those same Will & Grace creators, Max Mutchnick and David Kohan, developed Hulu's Mid-Century Modern to show that while a multi-camera sitcom with three gay male leads is rare, the stories they are telling are universal. Led by Nathan Lane's Bunny Schneiderman, Mid-Century Modern finds undergarment tycoon Bunny inviting his two best friends—Jerry (played by Matt Bomer) and Arthur (played by Nathan Lee Graham)—to move in with him and his mother, Sybil (played by Linda Lavin). It is after the passing of one of their mutual friends that Bunny opens up his Palm Springs home. Newsweek's H. Alan Scott chats with Nathan Lane, Matt Bomer and Nathan Lee Graham about Mid-Century Modern, how it came about, and why it's so important right now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to Multiverse News, your source for information about all of your favorite fictional universes. The Merc with the Mouth and Logan have officially taken the title of highest-grossing R-rated movie of all time, with Deadpool & Wolverine barely edging out 2019's Joker from that honor. As of this recording, the MCU romp has accumulated $1.14 billion. And while that's a tough ticket to beat, other late summer movies are tracking for big openings as well with Alien: Romulus debuting globally at more than $180 million and Tim Burton's sequel, Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, eyeing a potential $80 million opening - which would make it the biggest September opening of all time. Lucasfilm announced Tuesday that this year's new show The Acolyte will not receive a second season. The show was incredibly divisive among fans, though critically was well-received. Showrunner Leslye Headland had pitched ideas for a second season, but those will not come to fruition now. Sony Pictures released an extended look at their upcoming Spider-Man villain movie, Kraven the Hunter. The movie releases December 13 and has a star-studded cast featuring Russell Crowe and Ariana DeBose with Aaron Taylor-Johnson in the Titular role,. The new promo provided a slightly longer look at the Rhino, played by Alessandro Nivola. It's the story that dominated the Marvel fandom last week - when Beau DeMayo claimed his credit will be removed from season two because he shared fan art for Gay Pride in June. DeMayo cited this as quote “...the latest in a troubling pattern I suffered through while working on #XMen97 and #Blade.” Marvel quickly released a statement, responding to DeMayo's claim that it was his behavior, called “egregious” in the statement,which was the cause of his loss of credit as well as his termination. Sources following these statements claimed that an agreement had been reached regarding social media around X-Men'97 and DeMayo breached that contract. Other sources claim DeMayo's termination was due to sexual misconduct, though no internal reviews have surfaced. Camila Mendes, who starred in the CW series Riverdale, will play Teela in Amazon MGM Studios and Mattel Films' live-action take on Masters of the Universe and will star opposite Nicholas Galitzine, who is playing the role of He-Man. Marvel Comics announced a Kahhori: Reshaper of Worlds one-shot that will bring the character from season two of What If? into comics. Writer-director David O. Russell has cast Nicolas Cage to star in the lead role for Madden, the Amazon MGM Studios drama about the life of NFL coaching and broadcasting legend John Madden. "Will & Grace" creators Max Mutchnick and David Kohan, with executive producer Ryan Murphy, are bringing Hulu a comedy about chosen family. Starring executive producers Nathan Lane and Matt Bomer as well as Nathan Lee Graham, and Linda Lavin, this series follows three gay best friends who, after an unexpected death, decide to embrace their golden years together in sun-soaked Palm Springs where the wealthiest one lives with his mother. Apple TV+ has renewed Dark Matter, starring Joel Edgerton and Jennifer Connelly, for a second season. Derek Connolly, a franchise writer with a resume that includes the Jurassic World movies, has been tapped to write a live-action adaptation of the Sega video game Eternal Champions for Skydance. Puck Magazine's Matt Belloni is reporting that Mattel, who had been shopping a Barbie animated film, has entered talks with Illumination to produce it and Warner Brothers and Greta Gerwig are reportedly “not thrilled” about it. Amazon's Prime Video has canceled My Lady Jane, the period drama which combined romance and alternate-world fantasy. The cancellation comes about seven weeks after Prime Video released all eight episodes of the show's first and now only season.

I've been a television writer for the past 27 years. While I've written on some amazing shows, the work that I'm most proud of is my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It's the funniest, it's the deepest, and it's the one that will hit you hardest in the heart. These are the deeply personal, true stories of an awkward, sensitive man searching for the things that are most important: identity, love, forgiveness, and redemption. It's available now for your reading pleasure.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/A Paper Orchestra on Audible - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraA Paper Orchestra on Website - https://michaeljamin.com/bookFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:Yeah, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is because you sold 'em the rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving them any creative input at all when the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to What the Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about the podcast where we explore art, creativity, and writing. Oh, it's a big announcement today, Phil. Phil's back, big dayPhil Hudson:Back. Happy to be back. Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Big day. We're finally building up. This has been a long project. Phil book, my book, A Paper Orchestra Drops or dropped if you're hearing this. It's available, it's, it's alreadyPhil Hudson:Dropped. It's available yesterday, so go get it now.Michael Jamin:It's called a paper orchestra and it's a collection of personal essays. If you're a fan of David Sedaris, I think of it as David Sedaris meets Neil Simon. And this has been my passion project for years. I've been working on this and I'm very excited to put it out in the world. As you can get it on print, you can get it on audiobook, you can get it as ebook, however you consume your books, and you can get it everywhere. You can go get it on michael jamin.com. You can find it on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble or Audible for the audio audiobook. Anywhere, anywhere you get Apple. If you want to get the ebook, it's everywhere, Phil. It's everywhere.Phil Hudson:It's like you got a real publishing deal except you didn't.Michael Jamin:Well, I'm doing it myself,Phil Hudson:And we'll go into that. I want people to understand you chose to self-publish this at this point, but that's not how we started. And we've talked a bit about that when we changed the podcast title and we talked a bit about it. We're talking about your live shows, but I think this is like, let's celebrate Michael Jamin a little bit today because you're always talking to people to build the mountain, to climb. You are now at the top of that mountain, and I imagine you're looking over and saying, oh crap, look, that other peak there I've got to get to now.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I already am. Yeah, for sure. Lot of it. And I hope this inspires a lot of you. There's so many people who are like, I want to sell my screenplay, or I want to help me break in, help me, help me. But there's so much that you can do. So unempowering disempowering, you're basically hoping that someone else is going to make your career, buy my script, make my movie. But there's so much that you can do on your own, and you may think it's more work because you're doing it yourself, but it's actually less work because now you don't have to count on someone else to do it for you. You can stop begging, you can stop worrying about all the rejection because when you're selling your scripts or trying to, you're going to get rejected by 99 out of a hundred people. But if you just build it yourself, there's so much you can do. The year we live in, it's so empowering. Everyone has a phone and you can shoot on your phone, you can make a movie. Everyone has a miniature movie studio. There's so much we all can do and on our own. And so I'm just going to share a little bit about the journey that I've been on when I started writing this book.So basically this started well over four years ago, maybe five years ago. I told my wife that I was just at a point in my life where I felt a little disheartened by, a little bored by what I was writing in television because when I write for tv, and I'm very grateful to have a job and a career, but I'm always writing what someone is paying me to write. And I'm very rarely writing what I want to write. I'm paying what someone pays me to write or what I can sell, but that's not how I started writing when I was in college and in high school. I just wanted to write what I wanted to write. And so I went for a walk with my wife one day and I was like, I have a really bad idea. I'm thinking of writing a collection of personal essays, which is what David Seras writes. And I love his writing. I've read everything. He's written multiple times. You show him your card, you got a card back there, don't you? Oh yeah. Yeah. He actually, I sent him a piece of fan letter, a fan mail three years ago. But I've read him so much. I knew that he would respond. He talks about, I knew he would respond. It just took him three years to respond, but it was very kind of him.So yeah, so I started writing. I wanted to write this project. I wanted to write what I want to write. I wanted to tell stories the way I wanted to tell them without network notes, without a partner, without. I just wanted to see what I can do on my own without having someone telling me what to do or breathing down my back or saying, no, it should be this or that. What can I do? And so I told that to Cynthia and she said, that's a great idea. And I said, but you don't understand even if I sell it, I'm not going to make a lot of money from it and it's going to take me years and years to do. She goes, you got to do it anyway, because if you do, you will find yourself in the process. And I was like, okay.And at the time, I was really in a bad place. I was just very upset about stuff mentally. I was in a bad place. I was like, okay, I'll start writing. And that's what I did. I remember I had listened to a lot of David C's audio books, but I had never read him. So I was like, I better read him. And then I bought a bunch of books and I read the first one. I remember I was lying in bed. I was reading the first book and I'm about halfway through and I'm thinking, where's this guy going? What's he doing here? Where's he going with this? And then I got to the end of the piece and the ending was such a wonderful ending. I was like, oh my God. And I almost threw the book across the room. I was, I was so mad.I was like, this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be easy or natural, not easy, but just considering I'm a writer, I didn't think it would be that difficult. So then I just started studying him and I got all his books and I read them multiple times over and over again, and the more I read, I was just trying to look for patterns and trying to learn from him. And that kind of just began, that was the beginning of this journey just to study, study what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:You're constantly telling people to study their craft, and you talk about story and story structure. You have a course on that. Most of your content you put on social media is dedicated to helping people understand that your webinars are often about resetting people's expectations about what a writing career looks like and helping them focus on what really matters. And the undertone that I've witnessed over the last two, two and a half years of this process with you of at least starting the podcast and helping with social media and that stuff, it's all based under the reality or the realization that creativity is worth doing just to be creative and that there's value in that process beyond monetary pay or paychecks.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, for sure. When I first started writing these stories, the first two, first several were not very good. I was writing in David Sari's voice because I didn't know how else to do it. The ironic thing, as a TV writer, I'm always writing in someone else's voice. I'm writing in the character's voice or the voice of the show, but this is my voice, and this is the first time I actually had to do that. And so because I'm a good mimic and because I had just read so much of him, I was kind of writing, I was kind of the writer like him, and I thought the first two stories were good. And then I set it down for a couple of weeks and I read it with fresh eyes and I thought, oh, this is terrible. It felt like a cheap knockoff. It felt like me pretending I was him and I hated it.I threw all those stories out and then I had to figure out, okay, what's my voice? And that was a long discovery. But the reason why, this is a long way of saying this, those first several stories I wrote, I don't know, maybe six or seven stories, and it just take months and months. At one point, I reach out to my agent. I'm at a very big prestigious Hollywood agency. They do. They represent me in film and tv, and I reached out to my agent. I told him what I was working on. I said, Hey, do we have a book agency, a book department? He said, of course we do. What do I know? I tell him what I was doing. I said, can you hook me up with one of your agents? He goes, sure. So I reach out to their agents. This guy's in New York now, he doesn't have to take, just so people know, I told 'em what I was doing. He doesn't have to take me on as a client, but he has to take the call.I'm banging them. They got to take the call. He doesn't have to bring me on to represent him in books though. And so I told him what I was doing. He goes, oh, that sounds interesting. Send me what you have. I go, well, I only have a handful of stories, but I'll send you what I have. So I emailed them to him. I never heard back. I didn't hear back for probably six months at this point. And I'm still writing more stories. It doesn't matter, whatever. I'm thinking maybe he read it, he didn't read it, he doesn't like it, whatever. I'm not going to stop writing them though. And I just kept on writing all these stories. Finally, six months later, he reaches out to me. He goes, I'm so sorry it took me so long to read these. I love them. Let's get on the phone and talk about them.I was like, sure. He goes, and he was like, when we spoke, he said, he said, do you have any more? Because he only read whatever. I sent him maybe six stories, and I go, as a matter of fact, yeah, I'm almost done with the collection. Give me another couple of weeks and I'll send you the entire collection. So at that point, but again, I'm writing it because I want to write it. I want to do this. I'm not thinking about how much money I'm going to make. I'm thinking about the process of writing and figuring out how to learn. I had to relearn how to write because I'm a TV writer who now is writing books. There's a little difference. There's some difference to it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. A couple things here. I love the narrative, and I don't want to interrupt the narrative, but I think there's some topics that are coming up here. Is it okay if we just dive into those for a second? Yeah, please. Okay. You talked about David Sedaris and you were reading this and you're like, where is this going? And then it ended in this way. That was almost upsetting because it was so beautiful and so well done. What I'm hearing you say is something you talk about regularly on the podcast and in your social media content, which is the way you unpack your story is the job of being a writer. And that's almost effectively what I'm hearing is that's your craft and your tone and your style. You still have to understand story structure and you understand these things. But the unpacking, would you say that that's an example of what you're talking about when you say how you unpack something matters?Michael Jamin:Yes, and the thing is, I've really tried to study him. I think he's the gold standard. I think he's a master, a beautiful writer. There's certain things I was able to learn and certain things I was not able to unpack. And so I learned a lot from him for sure. But some things still remain a mystery to me from how he writes. I can't see through it, and I'm good at seeing through some stuff. So take that for what it's worth. I do remember thinking, I had long conversations with my wife when we were about this. I didn't want people to think that the book was written by a sitcom writer. I wanted it to be funny and dramatic, but I didn't want people to say, oh, this guy's, I wanted it to be a little smarter than just a sitcom, I guess. And so I was very self-conscious about that.And we had long conversations of Is this art? How do I make art? What is art? How do I do this? So it feels like art and what I really came, it was a really eye-opening moment for me, and it came from much of what I learned about how to do this. I learned not from writers, David is probably the only writer who I really studied a lot for this book, but I learned a lot from watching interviews with musicians, ironically, about how they approached their art. And I found that to be more helpful than listening to other writers. And one of the really interesting things, I was like, well, we know there's a market for what David Sedera says. We know people like what he does, so why am I trying to reinvent things? Why not just kind of do what he's doing? And there's two reasons why not.One, I'm not him. I can't be him ever. And that's almost the tragedy of the whole thing is I want to write, this guy can write, but I never ever will. So you're going to have to let go of that, which is almost tragic. But the other thing is, it's my responsibility not to, as an artist, if you want to make art, then add, you have to bring new to the equation. You have to bring new, and that actually, I picked up, I believe I picked up from an interview with watching Pharrell talk about music.Phil Hudson:That's awesome.Michael Jamin:Which is basically he's saying, listen, your job is to bring something new to the conversation, is to put the youness into it. Whatever is you, that's what you have to put into it. And that was very reassuring to hear it from him. I was like, oh, okay, now I can lean into me.Phil Hudson:This resonates with me. And what I wrote down here is that you can look outside of your space for inspiration. And I think this again ties to the fact that creativity is self, it's for the self. Rick Rubin, the producer, you're familiar with him. I think most people are at this point. I was just watched a clip of him in an interview and he said, I have never made music for a fan. When you do, it's bad when I make it for myself or when I do it because it's something that I like that resonates with the listener. And would you say that's what you're doing here is you're writing this for you in your tone because it's the best pure expression of your art?Michael Jamin:Well, yes, yes and no. Some of it, it's very truthful. It's very painfully truthful. It's very intimate. I go there. I think that's what makes it interesting. I think that's my job as a writer. It's my obligation as a writer is to figure out what the truth is and figure out how to tell it. But I also keep the audience in mind, and maybe that's just because of my background as a team writer.Phil Hudson:Yeah, you're an entertainer to a degree because that's what you do, is you want people to tune in for 23, 25 minutes per week, have a good time, forget their worries, and then leave having gotten something from what you've done. Well,Michael Jamin:It's also,Phil Hudson:But I don't know, that negates what Rick Rubin's talking about because it's like when you read, when you're putting out here, do you feel like you are getting the same value out of it that you would hope a reader would, or are you hoping the reader gets more value out of it than what you're getting out of it?Michael Jamin:Well, I don't know. I mean, first I keep them in mind. I picture my reader with a remote control in their hand. That's just become from me, a TV writer. So how do I make sure this story is compelling so that they want to turn the page? But I do keep them in mind in terms of how do I make this story not about me, but about all of us. And I think that's important because this has the danger of becoming very self-indulgent. These are true stories from my life, but I tell them in a way with art, so that you really feel like you're reading a character in a book. I am a character. The character of Michael is in this story, so it's not like, and then this happened, then this happened. I'm not telling you how I broke into Hollywood, although there are stories about that. I'm really telling you about the stories. These are stories of rejection. These are stories of triumph. There are stories there meant to be, the details are mine, but the stories are all of ours. So that's how I feel I'm telling them is like, okay, so that you can totally relate to this so you can feel, okay, I had something very similar and me explaining it to you helps you understand it, hopefully.Phil Hudson:And not to jump ahead, I saw you last year for my birthday, do a performance. My wife and I came out and there's a story, was it, is that what it's called?Michael Jamin:The Goul? Yeah, thePhil Hudson:Goul. Still a year later, 13 months later, still thinking about that goul because as a new father and then hearing your perspective as a father with children leaving the home, yeah, there's a lot of beauty and regret in that story that is paralleling the decisions I'm making now with my children who are young and what I want my life and my relationship to be like with them. So yeah, I think you absolutely check that box. You said, I've heard you say before, you want people to leave and sit there and think about it, have been impacted by what's happening. And I can tell you that that's been very true for me.Michael Jamin:That's been my, because, so Phil came to, I performed this, and if you want to see me perform, you can go to In Your Town if I travel with it, michael jamin.com/upcoming. But that's one of the stories. That's actually one of the stories I gave out to reviewers to review the book and people, they like that story. But yeah, my goal when I write any story, and hopefully I achieve this, is people say, I couldn't put it down. That seems to be the nicest thing you could say about a book. I couldn't put it down. I want you to put the book down. I want you to get to a chapter and just be so moved at the end of it that you're not ready to move forward. You just want to sit in that emotion for however long it takes you, whatever it is, just sit in it.I don't want you to, it's not meant to be consumed that way. And one of the things that I tried to achieve, I made, we did an audio book and I hired whatever. I partnered with Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer I worked with on Marin. He's a really talented writer composer. And so for the audio book, I would send him each chapter. And then I said to him, he's like, what do you want? I go, no, no, no. I want you to read this piece, interpret it. Tell me what it sounds like to you in music. What's your version of, he's an artist. What does this sound like to you in music? And that's what he came back with. And so at the end in the audiobook, if you prefer to consume it that way, at the end of the story, we go right into the music and it forces you, or not forces you, but allows you to sit in it. It allows you to sit in whatever motion it is. The music carries you out for 30 seconds or however long it is, just so now you can experience it in music, which I love that I just love. I thought he brought so much to the audiobook. I'm so grateful he hopped on board.Phil Hudson:I normally listen to audiobooks at 1.5 to 1.75 speed, and then the music kind of throws that off. This is one I would absolutely listen to in real time. JustMichael Jamin:Slow it down. Yeah, down,Phil Hudson:Slow it down and just sit in it and give yourself the treat and the opportunity to sit in that. I think very often we are constantly looking for the next thing or to get ahead or checking off stuff on our list. And that's not what this book is. This book is a sit in it, allow yourself to feel it. Think about how you can apply it. There's just some beautiful life lessons in here as well.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I hope so. That was my goal.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I think it's achieved. And I've talked to several people in your advanced reader group who feel the same way.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:And you've got fans in there, but these are people who are very sincere with their compliments as well. And there's some great compliments coming your way from that advanced group.Michael Jamin:And so thank you. Honestly, I like to do more of this kind of writing, and this is, to me is very fulfilling at this stage of my career. To me, it's more exciting doing this than writing a TV show that might be seen by millions of people writing something that can make someone just make you laugh, but then feel something. It's funny, I have sort of a recipe and I'm wondering, people can see through it at some point, but I don't really care. My recipe is if I can get you to laugh in the beginning, I just want you to open up. Let's just start laughing about stuff and it start, most of my stories start out very fun and light, and then you kind of relax into, oh, this is going to be fun. And you let your guard down, and as soon as your guard comes down, then I hit you as really hard, as hard as I can with something emotional where I talk about, and because you're in my writing course, you'll know where this happens, where this happens structurally. And then at that point, once I hit him in the heart, there's no point in being funny anymore. The humor has already achieved its goal, which is to you to get your guard down. And soPhil Hudson:Engaged, paying attention, it's something, some advice, I know it's standard advice, but it advice used specifically gave me a long time ago, which is it's easy to kill people. It's hard to make them laugh, and so you're almost checking the box on the humor part, so they're completely engaged and engrossed in what's going on, which is why the emotional impact of the reality of this story hits so hard later. Yeah,Michael Jamin:There were times I thought maybe I'm being too funny here in the beginning, I'm not even sure, but because I didn't want any of this to feel silly, I just wanted it to be fun until, but yeah, tonally, there's, I guess some stories are a little lighter than others for sure.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's good stuff. Going back to what you're telling though, in this narrative of how we got to where you are, you said that you reached out to your agent who got you in touch with the literary agent effectively for books and publishing, and a lot of people, myself included, might be tempted to submit to the agent and then wait and do nothing. And you made a point of saying you continued to write. And the question when he came back is, do you have more? So a lot of people, I think the mistake is that they're putting all their eggs in the basket. And we see this all the time with the questions on the webinars for the podcast, for your live q and as, when you do them on social media, whatever it is, how do I get an agent? How do I get a representative? How do I get a showrunner attached? How do I do this? And it's like you say you're putting all the power in the hands of somebody else and you're saying that's the wrong thing to do. And because you didn't, because you're writing for yourself to do the job, and you didn't wait for one person to make your career, you were even more successfulMichael Jamin:In getting, and he doesn't care. I mean, he's a good guy and everything, but he doesn't care if I achieve this. What does he care? All he wants is, is he going to make money from this? And that's fair enough. He has to make money, so my dream is my dream. I have to make my dream happen. And so yes, then turned it into him. We sent it out, and then the feedback I got was, Hey, this is really great, but platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? It means you need to have a social media following. I said, really? It's not good enough that it's well written. No, not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago. But today the industry publishing has changed as much as Hollywood has changed, it's really can they sell it? And now it's sold on social media. You're expected to have that.And I was a little upset about that. I was like, why can't it just be good enough? Everyone loved it, but platform drives acquisition. I said, all right, well, how big of a social media following do I need? This is two and a half years ago. And I couldn't get a straight answer that no one really knew, but especially in the space of They had a good point, Phil. They really did. It's not like this is not a novel. These are personal essays. But like I said, they're told story-wise, not if you didn't know me. You'd be like, oh, this is a nice story. But it just so happens that it's true. But the point that they made was, or maybe I made it with myself. I think that's what it was. I was like, if you were to go to Barnes and Noble and my book was on the shelf, why would someone buy it if they don't know who I am?Because there's true stories. Who cares if you don't know who I am? And that's a fair thing to ask. Why would someone pick it off the shelf? Now, here's the thing, as I was arguing with myself, but here's the thing. No one goes to Barnes and Nobles anymore. That's not where people get books. I mean, they exist, but most people just get it online. Most of the books are sold online. So why do I need to be in Barnes and no, I don't. I need, I mean, I can be, but it's not necessary. And so I was like, okay. And then I was like, well, if I build the platform, if I get a big following and people want to support me and buy the book curious and they like what I have to say and they think I'm talented, great. But then why do I need a publisher?What do they bring to the equation, honestly? Oh, they can get your book in barge. Oh, well, great, but no one goes there anymore. So what exactly did they do? And by the way, they get most of the money. I'm like, okay, well, they help you design the book cover, but the problem is they don't help you. They design the book cover. You don't get a choice of what the book cover is. Maybe they give you three choices, but that's about it. They decide how they want and they decide what the title of the book is. You sold 'em the Rights. So why am I giving away all this power to someone who hasn't earned it? Why am I making them rich? Why am I giving any creative input at all? When the whole point of this was for me to have a hundred percent creative input? I remember at one point, because I had talked to other people in the publishing world and they thought your title could be better. It's called the Paper Orchestra. I was like, yeah, but I think I like the title, but no one really knows what it means. And I'm like, yeah, you got a good point. No one knows what it means untilPhil Hudson:I remember this conversation,Michael Jamin:And then it was ironically, I had a long talk with my daughter. It was on my birthday, and we went for a long walk, and she's so smart, and she says, well, why are she said to me, I thought the whole point of the book was for you to just write what you wanted to write without anyone giving you No. I said, yeah. She goes, well, why are you changing the title? I said, yeah, why am I changing the title? Why am I second guessing myself? So I did it my way. I did a hundred percent my way, and this is my book.This is my expression without having anyone telling me it's wrong, it's different. It should be this or that. Along the way. I got to say, Phil, it's so frustrating for, it's so frustrating to hear this kind of stuff, I think, but it's like I understand what people want. I want this. I want a complete creative expression. And to me, that's the satisfaction. Whether I sell a hundred copies or one copy or a million copies, it's the process that I got so much joy out of. And I think that's what people will enjoy. I mean, it's like I had so many agents, even afterwards, they find me on social media, they reach out to me, go, and I tell 'em what my book is, and they go, oh, that sounds nice, but if you write a young adult novel, I can sell that for you. Or if you write a how to book, we can sell that. I'm like, if I don't want to write those, this is what I want to write. This is exactly what I wanted to write. You got to do it yourself.Phil Hudson:That's right. And that's what you tell people. You got to basically make your mountain, create your mountain, and then climb your mountain.Michael Jamin:And all of it's doable. It's just going to take a long time, but it's going to take less time to build your mountain and climb it than it's for you to beg someone to make your life.Phil Hudson:And begging someone to make your life means you owe them and they have power over you.Michael Jamin:And it's also, but you're going to hear no so many times you're going to get so much rejection. Who needs it? Why not just put all that creative energy into what you want to achieve instead of why are you wasting your energy hitting people up on LinkedIn? What's the point of that?Phil Hudson:This is something in business I'm bad about because we've talked about it before. I own a digital marketing agency. That was my career path before I moved to LA, and I still operate that agency, and we do nothing on LinkedIn. And I was like, well, you got to be on LinkedIn. That's where the businesses are. And I was like, I get that Our business is almost purely word of mouth, and it's because I'm not out shaking my can, asking people to put money in it. We stand on the value of the work that we do, and then that's referral work that goes out to other people. And that's not the way to grow to a business that's going to end up on the New York Stock Exchange or end up something you can trade. But what it is, it's a lifestyle business that creates a way for me to do what you're doing, which is to make my art, to be creative, to live my life the way I want without having to be beholden to somebody else dictating what I do with my time and my hours. And what I'm hearing you say is it's effectively the same thing for your book is had you gone with an agent who sold your book to a big publisher, you would now be mandated to do things in a certain way and you would've lost all of the same creative control. And it almost sounds like it would spoil the whole experience for you.Michael Jamin:It's hard to say. I mean, in the beginning, that's how I thought I had to do it. And then I realized I didn't have to who it could have been a great experience. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know, but I also know it's not necessary even a little bit, not in today's world. And if I do another book, maybe I will use a publisher, maybe not. I don't know. But the point is, if I do, they're going to pay me for it. You know what I'm saying? This first one's on me. I have to prove myself. Sure. If they want in on Michael Jamin, they're going to have to pay me or else, because now the power has shifted.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I can't remember if we've ever talked about this, but this came up in conversation this week's Kevin Hart, where he worked, traveling, doing standup comedy, getting names, getting emails after shows, building a fan base. And then when he got his first big deal, they were like, all right, and then we'll need you to send this out to your email list. And he said, it's a million dollars. And they said, what? He says, you didn't work to build that list. You don't get my people and mine. I put in the blood, sweat and tears on this. You did not. You're going to pay me for that blood, sweat and tears.Michael Jamin:And what happened?Phil Hudson:They paid him everyMichael Jamin:Time they paid him. Yeah. Pay the man and a lot of this, and you've helped out as well with enormously, just in terms of the podcast and help me with marketing and all that stuff and the website. Yeah, but it's still one of these things. Build it first. This is the order in which you need to do things when you make it first and then people will join in. People will want a piece of that. They either want to help you or they'll want part of your success or whatever. It's not the other way around. It's not, Hey, help me make my dream. No one wants to help you make your dream. No one cares about your dream. You build it first and then they'll come out of the woodwork and decide whether they want a piece of you or not, because they can make some money off of it.But it's so much more empowering when you look at it that way. It's like, Hey, I have something to offer here. I have something great. I'm not even offering it. I have something great here. Do you want a piece of it or not? And the answer, they know, okay, that's fine. I will do it without you. But it's the other, you know what I'm saying? It's not like, Hey, help me make it out. Hey, help me. Then you're begging. It's the other way around. I have something great and I'm going there. I'm doing it with or without you. Up to you, you can decidePhil Hudson:It's field of dreams, right? If you build it, they will come. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You got to build it first though.Phil Hudson:You got to build it first. You have to do the crazy thing. You have the lofty idea. You got to go make the baseball field in the middle of your corn field in Nebraska orMichael Jamin:Wherever. And people say, though, I don't know how to do that. But if you are a creative person and you want to get into a creative field, writing or screenwriting, whatever, be creative, prove how creative you are, you'll figure it out.Phil Hudson:Figure it out. Yeah, go cut your teeth. I think it's this metaphor for life though, which is we have to do things that are difficult and hard and things that we don't enjoy because that's how we learn and grow and get better. And redefining failure I think was a big deal for me because failure was something I just tried to avoid at all costs, to the point that I would do nothing if I thought I wasn't going to be 100% successful. So imagine doing that, trying to be a writer when writing is rewriting, you're not going to be okay the first 10, 15 drafts or whatever. Oh, god. And so if you have this fear of failure and what is failure? So redefining what these things means is very important. And when you start looking at failure, a lot of very smart people have said that failure is just the fastest way to get to success. You just have to fail as fast as possible so that you can achieve your goal. And it's just learning what not to do. And so many quotes about that.Michael Jamin:That's one of the things. Another thing that I picked up from another musician, David Bowie, as I was trying to figure out what art is, and he said something very similar. He said, art is basically is taking something from within yourself and figuring out a way how to express it so that you can help understand yourself and the world around you. And he goes, but to make something really great, you have to swim in water. That's just a little too deep to stand in. And that's when something great can happen. When you're in a little over your head, that's when the art is made. And it's the same thing what you're saying. It's like you got to do things that are out of your comfort zone, and that's how you achieve things.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So social media, being a public persona, subjecting yourself to just some of the most crazy things you've told me people say to you and your comments and your dms and just horrible things. HorribleMichael Jamin:Internet is horrible. I don't get a ton of hate, but I do get hate. But that's a double-edged sword of doing this. But also then it was also, okay, I put myself on social media as a screenwriter, as a TV writer, and here I'm sharing my expertise working in the business for 27 years, but I also have show you that I have to show you that I'm actually good at what I do, so that I try to make my posts funny. Or sometimes I just do a post. It's all funny so that you feel like, okay, maybe this guy can write as opposed to just me saying, I can write, showing you that I can write. So there's that kind of bridge I have to cross.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The exercise of putting yourself out there though is just something you were hesitant to for years and years and years. I think since I met you, I've been telling you, you need to be on social media. You need to grow a social media following, and it was just not your thing. And what I appreciate about your story with this book is you care so much about this book and doing this thing for yourself that you're willing to do the uncomfortable, which is be public facing person who is willing to put yourself out there almost every single day for two and a half years despite what anybody says, because that is what is required for you to make sure that you are able to have the maximum impact as you can with this thing that's so important to you. And that is something most people aren't willing to do.Michael Jamin:You are listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamon talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, a Collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timbral. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book. Go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book.Go to michael jamin.com/book, and now back to our show. I mean, I have people who go on social and things. I go on social media. There's a lot of influencers that I follow or whatever, usually experts in their field, but many of them, or most of them don't use their real name. They don't because they want that anonymity, and I don't blame them, but I can't do that. If I'm talking about my book, you got to know what my name is. And so I end everything is Michael Jamon writer. That's scary to put your real name out there. And so there's that as well.Phil Hudson:This is scary in a real way too. I'm aware of at least two police reports we've had to file for people who've been insane.Michael Jamin:Yeah, there's some insane people out there, but really insane and nothing too dangerous. I had to report,Phil Hudson:But its hateMichael Jamin:Speech. You still have to reportPhil Hudson:It. It speech, it's hate speech. It's threatening. It's angry language, and the things that you're talking about are wild. They're not invoking it. One of the compliments I think you get for people is how you respond to criticism. It's like you could destroy people because you have that capacity.Michael Jamin:I could do that with my words. You'rePhil Hudson:The definition of a good man, and the fact that you are dangerous with your words and you choose not to use it,Michael Jamin:I would believe me, I would tear them apart and make them look silly, but it doesn't help me any. It doesn't actually help me. So I just, I'm getting there rolling in the dirt with them, and then we both get dirty. So for the most part, I just ignore, but I also talk to other creators how they handle the same thing. It's this new internet fame. It's a strange territory.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Well, we were just talking earlier today about how you went. Did you go into a Kinko's or something to PrinceMichael Jamin:And stuff? Yeah, I went to a Kinko's. I got spotted in the wild.Phil Hudson:Yeah, somebody knew who you were and it was more common. Shout out Chris. Chris on the podcast, but it's like the first time, I remember the first time that really happened to you. I remember you told me You'll never believe what happened. I was out in this place and somebody shotted Michael Jamon Ry from their car. It's just a weird thing.Michael Jamin:It's just odd. Yeah.Phil Hudson:I've had a taste of that through association, and I've talked about it on the podcast as well, where we went to our wrap party for Tacoma FD season four, and one of the assistant editors comes up and he goes, dude, I got to tell you, my wife works in the industry and she's an accountant, and she brought over her accountant friend, and they were like, oh, what Jody do you work on? And he was like, I work on Tacoma Dean. And she's like, oh, I listen to Phil Hudson's podcast.Michael Jamin:Oh,Phil Hudson:Wow. And he's like, I didn't even know you had a podcast. I was like, ah. It's a strange feeling. And then later that night, one of our accountants, it must be accountants who listened to our podcast, they brought someone over to the party's like, yeah, listen to your podcast. I was like, it feels weird. And I'm not even Michael Jammin. I'm just a guy who's on there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's strange to put yourself out there like that, but you're doing it,Phil Hudson:But you're doing it.Michael Jamin:I'm doing it, but I also, yeah. And also, listen, if you want to know more about me, then you'll definitely read the book. The book is very vulnerable, but it's still weird. I don't know. I felt like, well, David Sedaris can do it. I can do it. But I also, I think that's interesting about, I do think that's interesting about this kind of writing is that as opposed to writing a novel that you're making up and you are making up these characters, I feel like the stakes are higher when you're reading something like my book, because you, oh, this character's real, and he's really going through, it's not like when you're reading a fake a movie or watching a movie or reading a book, a novel and the character dies or whatever gets injured or something. Part of you can still say, okay, it's still made up. It's not real. That's just an actor going through something and the actor's pretending. But when you read this, you go, oh, this is real. This is a real person. This is not made up. And I do feel like it raises the stakes, and in some way, I feel like this is my answer to ai, to what if everyone's worried that AI is going to take writer's jobs? This is my answer to that, which is, AI cannot do this. AI is not capable of telling a story about me. That's real. I have to do that.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Someone just yesterday I saw someone posted that asking AI to write about, to write about something is having them listen to a thousand hours of people talking about pizza and then asking it to make a pizza is just like, it's not going to come out. It's just not going to come out.Michael Jamin:I get a lot of people in my comments and they'll say things when I talk about ai, you clearly don't understand ai, and I want to say, you clearly don't understand writing. That's what you don't understand. Yep.Phil Hudson:It's the human condition. I mean, we've been talking about this forever. That's what Star Trek is, right? It's data figuring out what it means to be human. The thing that comes to mind for me is this, for random clip, I saw probably when it was airing real time in the early nineties, and my dad was watching it and it's data talking about how, oh, boy, time flies. And he couldn't understand the expression, time flies. And so he sat and watched an egg boil over and over and over again. He's like, it takes exactly eight minutes and 32 seconds or egg to boil because he couldn't understand or comprehend it from the machine side. And so it's all about that. Even machines want to be more human. And rioting is exploring the human condition. Yeah,Michael Jamin:That's right. That's right. So if you want to understand yourself and you write, and then to me getting back to the book, that's what this process was figuring out who I am, figuring out who I, and it's so interesting because all these patterns kept on emerging. I got write a story and I'd get halfway through it, and I'm thinking, why would this character, and let's say this story is something that I did when I was 11 or whatever, why would this character do that? Why would I have done that? And a lot of times I just didn't know, why would I do that? It didn't make sense. Then I'd write something, I'd go, no, that doesn't feel true. That feels like the TV version. What's the real version? And then I'd have to think of another memory from that time. And I think, oh, I wonder if those two are related. And now I'm figuring out who I am. And I'm like, oh, that's why I would do that. That makes sense. Which is so interesting to finally be able to understand yourself at the end of this book. I'm like, oh, I know who I am.Phil Hudson:In some of my research for one of the pilots I wrote about special operators in the Seal team, six Delta fours, green Berets, army Rangers. I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, and one of 'em was talking about this principle that your level of trauma or your level of struggle is the same as mine. Even if something I've been through has been more horrific. From an objective perspective, our perception of my worst trauma and your worst trauma are equally impactful. And I'm wondering, we had very different childhoods, and we've talked a bit about mine and a little bit about yours, but does that process of exploring, why would you do things as a child? Is that healing for you?Michael Jamin:And it was healing and helpful. A lot of these stories, I feel, are apologies to various people I've heard over my life, and it's not written to be an apology, but when you're telling the truth, it's an apology. When you're acknowledging your end of it, it's an apology. And so I'm not writing it, Hey, please forgive me. It's just about the truth. And so, yeah, I really, it's so helpful, and hopefully this is what people will respond to. When you read the book, you go, oh, man, yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for putting to words what I couldn't do because I'm not a writer. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's the stuff that stays with us, right? It's a metaphor for things we're going through. And I think one of the most impactful lessons I learned in film school was the cool job effect.Michael Jamin:What is that?Phil Hudson:So it was this Russian director who showed the same shot of a man, and then he put it against a starving child or a child in a casket or food, or a beautiful woman. And at the end, everyone came up. And that actor was incredible. When he looked at the food, I could feel his desire for food. When he looked at that girl, I could see the pain of her death. And when he saw the woman, I could feel the lust. It's the exact same shot of the same man. And it's the subjective projection that one puts onto art that allows you, it's an unconscious way for you to make sense of your world and import what your experience is in on something, which is why art has always been a part of humanity. It's why it's something that we have always, I think, sought after. It's not entertainment from a sedation perspective where we're trying to avoid it. Sometimes it's that, but very often the things that impact us and mean something, they are things that we need to experience because they make sense. They allow us to make sense of our world.Michael Jamin:Right. That's a good point that you point that out. Yeah. It's like I feel like I've played a part of that in writing sitcoms sometimes, and there's a place for it. You'll come home after a long day, you just want to thrown out and laugh and really not be challenged and not go there, but for this piece. And there's nothing wrong with that. People want to be entertained. But for this,Phil Hudson:People still learn from that too, that people need that, and it serves a role too.Michael Jamin:They need that. But for this, I didn't want that. I wanted to go way deeper than that. I wanted to because I wanted to feel something. Because my contention as a comedy writer, and I know this is true, is that when you write that humor, write something funny. Or if you go, sometimes you'll go see a standup who's hilarious, but then you leave and you are hard pressed to remember one joke that you liked, or you're hard pressed to remember what you even liked about it. You go, I just spent an hour laughing, but I don't really remember any of it. I know I enjoyed myself, but I can't, it's not with me anymore. And what I really wanted to do was write something that would stay with you after this. So you were still feeling like we talked about, you're still feeling it. And you can't just do that with comedy. You have to mix drama into it. Because comedy, that's not what comedy does.Phil Hudson:Well, I mean, your course and what I've seen you do in your craft and sitcoms as well, this is really key point, is why do we care about this thing? The reason we don't care. That's the story. And that's the personal, and that's the people. And so, I mean, this has been your point, and what you've been teaching for years and years anyway is none of it matters unless it means something. And that is the drama part of the comedy. That comedy can break things and it can move us and give us that ebb and flow and that roller coaster effective emotions. And those are beautiful experiences to have in sitcoms or dramas or dramedies. But it's the, why are we watching this? It's the human thing. It's that human piece. That's what you're saying. That's what I'm hearing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's at stake here? What's really at stake? And again, I studied other writers. Some I thought did it great, and some I didn't think did it well at all. And so I was trying to hold myself to that higher standard of the ones who did it really well, because I knew what I, what I wanted out of this.Phil Hudson:And again, we've started by saying, you've climbed this mountain, and there's another mountain.Michael Jamin:There's another mountain. Sometimes people have said to me like, well, are you going to turn this into a TV show? It's so odd. It's so odd. Or a movie that somehow I was even watching, what was I watching, American Fiction, that movie. And there's a line in it where this author, she had a book that was a bestseller, and then she's giving an interview and someone said, oh, maybe they'll a hear. They're making a movie out of it. And she's like, well, I can't tell you anymore as if a movie is better than a book or a TV show is better than a book. A book could be a book, a book. What's wrong with a book? Just being a book.So I don't either have any plans to turn this in TV show. If anyone, could it be me? I am a TV writer. I could have very specific ideas on how I would want to do it, and whether a buyer would want to do that or not, I don't know. But I wouldn't compromise how I'd want to do it. But the best way to make it happen, if it did happen, I would have to sell a lot of books first. So if anyone wants to see it happen, then get a book. And then I would actually make content behind the scenes on TikTok, Hey, look at me now I'm meeting with this studio. And now if that's the ride you want to go on, then in order to go on that ride, I have to sell a lot of copies. But again, that's not my goal. Show support. You can if you're curious, but again, that's not my goal. The goal of this was only one thing. I want to write a book that moves people was never a TV show. I can write a TV show. I write TV shows. That's not what I wanted to do.Phil Hudson:And if you want to be moved, you have to buy a copy of the book because if you're listening to this and you want to experience what Michael has put together, you have to buy a copy of the book because that is, I know the number you've invested significantly into just making this happen for yourself. This is not some random cousin who's like, Hey, I wrote a book and I put it on Amazon publishing. This is the real deal. I mean, lift your book up if you don't mind, so people can see the cover. This has been out for a minute, but even just the story of this cover and how you got this cover and found this artist and license, it is a beautiful story in and of itself.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. That's another thing. So I wanted to cover,Phil Hudson:Before we dive into this, I just wanted to point out too, when you were talking about, you looked at all these other writers and people and you said, that's who I want. That's the level I want to be at. You've done this one. Whatever you do next, you're still going to be saying the same thing. All right. What's the next level of professionalism or craft that I can get to? And that's because you are a pro, and that's what you tell people to be a professional, which is constantly striving to be better than the last time.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There are a lot of writers or authors, maybe indie authors, they're cranking out books. I'm like, Jesus, I cranked this out. This took four years. I didn't crank this out. This was worked on really, I really worked on it.Phil Hudson:But talk about your cover. I apologize for interjecting there. I just wanted to get that point across that you're still going to be pursuing that. Excellent. And that's what makes people stand out. Excellence stands out in a world, I hope so.Michael Jamin:Yeah, make something good and people will, okay, so for the cover, I wanted a good cover, but the book is funny and it's also very poignant. And so I looked at other books that I thought were really good, and so I found this one guy who had actually designed some of David Sari's early covers. I didn't know this guy, but obviously he gets comedy. So I read, his name is Steve Snyder. I just found him on Instagram. I don't know him from a hole in the wall. And I DMed him. I slid into his dms and I told him what I was working on, and I told him, I noticed how weird it's for me to reach out to him. And he goes, oh, well, send me your manuscript. So I did. And then a couple weeks went by, he wrote back. He goes, I love it. I'm in. And now this guy, he's like 80 or something, but he was retired. He goes, I'll come back out of retirement to make the cover for you. I go, great, but just so you know, I don't know what my budget is. He goes, oh, I'll do it for free. I want to be part of it. I love it. I want to be part of it.Phil Hudson:Wow, Michael, just let that sit. I know you've internalized that, but we talk about to everybody. You got to own the wins and you got to celebrate the victory. He's like, what does that mean to you that this accomplishedMichael Jamin:Desire? It was very validating. It was very, and then I was like, alright, well, I'll just figure out what I'm going to pay you later, but, but then as we were moving down the line, he's retired, so he was getting, I just made plans. I'm going to be traveling from, he goes, I want to do this, but I don't think I can get it done on time. He goes, I was like, okay, I don't want to, okay, maybe you can refer somebody. So he recommended one of these accolades, one of the people he trained under him. And so I reached out to her same deal. And so I want hiring her, Jenny Carro. She did a wonderful job with the cover, but getting the cover. And then when we finally got the cover and I reached out to Steve again, I go, here's the cover.You want to see it? And he goes, oh, damn. I love it. I wish I didn't drop out. That's awesome. But what happened with Jenny? So she came back with a bunch of covers that were good, but they didn't feel right. There was something about it didn't feel right. It was like almost, and then she had one cover, and I hate to keep going back and forth with her. I was like, I don't want to discourage her. So one was almost good, almost like right, but not quite right. And then I was intent. I was going to use it. And then for some reason I happened to see an ad on Facebook. It was an article about artists or whatever. So I click on this article and I'm reading the article, and then there's other, I see the cover that she was going to license for my, she was going to license some artwork for my cover, and I recognize it.I go, that's it. And I click on it to discover more about what this artist had done. And then, which took me to his website or his Instagram page, I don't remember. And then I discover all his other work and I go, that's the one. So this is a licensed piece of art from this Dutch artist named Tune Juin. And I reached out to him, I want to license this art for your book, for my book. And he goes, great. It was just a boy sitting on words. And the title is a paper orchestra. And so it's not, what does it mean? It's just a boy struggling with words. That's all it is. And that's what the book is. It's about a boy who grew up to be a man who struggled with words.Phil Hudson:Do you remember what I told you when you told me that story? You remember what I calledMichael Jamin:It? What did youPhil Hudson:I said, that's Providence.Michael Jamin:Providence, yeah. There was a lot of that. There was a lot of just, Hey, that's the universe telling me this is what your cover should be. And once I saw it, I go, that's it. We're done. We're done. We could stop looking.Phil Hudson:And then here's an artist who is putting art out that I would consider to not be standard, normal art that you would think about in a normal way. And then here he is featured in this article, and then here, now you're reaching out and his art is now supporting and improving your art. It's a beautiful thing.Michael Jamin:And then the same thing with Anthony Rizzo, who did the music. When I got him aboard, I go, listen, Anthony, I'm making this audiobook. I don't know how much I can pay you. He goes, I don't care. I want to be part of it. So I was like, okay. And then I had a small budget for him, but then I got this brand deal from Final Draft. I go, oh, good. I can give him whatever I was going to pay him. Now I can pay him additional money from this brand deal. It doesn't come really out of my pocket. Its money. It's kind of found money. So I just give it right to him. That's great. That'sPhil Hudson:Great. I love that, man. Your network will pay in spades if the work you do is quality and you're a good person. I've seen that for you. I've seen that for myself. I've seen it in lots of other people. People want to be a part of your project if what you're doing means something and you're kind. And if you were Dick, imagine you were the showrunner and you were throwing tantrums and going on Tirades on Marin. Do you think anybody, I would want to work with you on this.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But there's that. And like I said, there's also build it for, if I started this by saying, reaching out to these people on Instagram or whatever, Hey, I have this idea that I want to make. Will you be part? No, come back to me when you're done, basically. And so for everyone who has a movie they want to make or a scene, alright, shoot a scene on a park bench with your phones. They're like, you don't need to spend $10,000. You could do it for 50. Whatever you need.Phil Hudson:Jamie Kaler, who I think you're going to have on the podcast, he just Captain Polonsky on Taco D and a bunch of other stuff. I had a long running series as well. He's got a series that he did with another known actor called Dad's in a Park, I think is what it's called. It's him on a bench with another dad just talking about dad stuff.Michael Jamin:And where's that on YouTube?Phil Hudson:I'll find it. I think it's on YouTube and Instagram. But it's so real and funny. It's like, yeah, this makes sense. And it's two great actors who are just doing their thing. And it plays and it plays really well. It's very funny.Michael Jamin:And when you look at people doing interesting things, this is what I say, people who are just popping, who just broke onto the Hollywood scene somehow. Somehow they have a special on Netflix or somehow they're a star of a show or a movie, whatever. Look how they did it. They did it themselves. And then Hollywood discovered them because Hollywood was like, oh, we can make money off this person.Phil Hudson:It's the fable. It wasn'tMichael Jamin:The other way around.Phil Hudson:It's a fable of overnight success that is never overnight success. There was always something before that. EveryMichael Jamin:Time, these are people who are already building it, people like me, people like you who are already building it, and then people see go, oh, what's that fool over there building? I want in on it. And that fool's going to say, well, you can be in or you can either way. I'm doing it without you. So come along for the ride if you wantPhil Hudson:Going to happen. I had love to talk about some of the endorsements of your book, if that's okay. I don't want to embarrass you with some of this stuff. How do you feel about telling the John Mayer story?Michael Jamin:Oh my God. That's anotherPhil Hudson:Thing. I think it's a great story. And I'll just say this. Michael will always be very hesitant about bringing in friends or colleagues to talk about his stuff. And he's made it ver

On this week's episode, I have Writer/Showrunner Max Mutchnick from Will & Grace, The Wonder Years, and many many more. Tune in as we talk about his journey as a writer and what some of his creative goals and hopes are for the future.Show NotesMax Mutchnick on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0616083/Max Mutchnick on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maxmutchnick/?hl=enMax Mutchnick on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MaxMutchnickMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMax Mutchnick:By the way, I think Miley Cyrus is the only sitcom actor who is able to move the needle. They push you during sweeps. Can you get a Shatner? If we could get Shatner on Big Bang. I know we'll write, that's probably not a good example because it probably worked. But for the most part, shows just get what they get. They always get what they get. It doesn't matter. These co-stars and these, none of that mattered,Michael Jamin:Right?Max Mutchnick:Is it funny? And do you like the people? Do you like the people? Do you like what? They like the world of it?Michael Jamin:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today, I have a wonderful guest that no one deserves to hear. And yet, as a gift, if you're driving your car, pull over, you're going to want to hear this guy, this man and his writing partner, they are responsible for literally one of the biggest hits in the modern era. I'm talking about Will and Grace. This is the co-creator of Will and Grace Max. Much Nick, but lemme tell you what else he's done. All right. It's not just that. I'm going to run through his profile for a second and then I promise I'll let him get a word in edgewise. One word's Dennis Miller show. He was right around the Dennis Miller Show, the Wonder Years Good advice, the single Guy Dream on co-creator of Boston Common Co-creator of Good Morning, Miami Co-creator of Twins, co-creator of Four Kings. This guy's got a lot of work done. Shit, my dad says. Co-creator, partners co-Creator clipped, co-creator, and of course Will and Grace Max, welcome to the show. And let me tell you why this is so meaningful to me to have you hereMax Mutchnick:And me too, just to get an award in.Michael Jamin:Okay? I wonder if,Max Mutchnick:And by the way, those credits were in no particular order.Michael Jamin:Well, it is the IMDB order.Max Mutchnick:It's a weird order, but I'm still thrilled to be here. So I'm going to let you keep going because I like all this.Michael Jamin:Everyone loves having smoked Blunt.Max Mutchnick:It's fantastic.Michael Jamin:Let me tell you why it's so meaningful, because one of the very first jobs I had in Hollywood, I was a PA on a show called Hearts of Fire a max, and his partner writing partner David, were, I don't know if you guys were staff writers or story editors,Max Mutchnick:I think on Hearts of Fire, we were staff writers. I think we were staff writers. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So I'd get you lunch. That's basically it. But you guys were, you guys were so kind. You always let me in. I come into your office, you'd invite me into your office, which to me felt like a big deal. And you guys were both, to me, you were the epitome of what a comedy writer is supposed to be like larger than life, charismatic, funny, ball busting, but also just, I don't know, just energetic and enthusiastic and bursting with creativity and to be around you guys threeMax Mutchnick:Seconds away from tears at all times.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh yeah, thatMax Mutchnick:Too. But I mean, we maybe didn't show that to you, but again, I hate to interrupt you when you're saying all this nice stuff.Michael Jamin:Well, I do remember one time, David, I was sitting with you and he's like, what have you heard? I'm like, what have I heard? What do you hear? I'm like, dude, you guys are the only people who talk to me. What have I heard? Nothing.Max Mutchnick:That's so good. What have I heard? And I was listening to you, and by the way, it gives me nothing but joy to be here, and I have to do full disclosure. So I start watching you and listening to you, and this is what happens when you get to be 40 57. I said, I'm like, I know him. I have a feeling of love for him. I do not know how we know each other. It's so funny. I couldn't remember the show that we worked on. I couldn't remember the show we worked on. And then I heard you talking about Mike and Maddie. Yes. The other day. And it was, which isn't on my IMDB page.Michael Jamin:It is. I skipped over it. I didn't want to embarrassMax Mutchnick:You. Yeah, no, I'm glad that we can talk about that too. But it all started at Hearts of Fire.I mean, it's just unbelievable. And that was such an incredibly formative time, and it's so interesting to me that you had this experience of us is mean, and by and large, that's what we are. I mean, I always look back on life and I reflect on it, and I'm always happy when I look back on the things that I've done and where I've been and where I'm going and all that stuff. But today, not so much. What do you mean? Well, it's like I'm saying, when I'm in the moment of today, a lot of times I really can get wrapped up in being depressed about the business and where things are. And I am starting to say things that like old people say, and I don't want to, because I always thought I would never do that. I would never say the business isn't like it used to be. But I'mMichael Jamin:Surprised you even feel that way. You've already accomplished so much. I don't think I would ever get to your level of success. I would've stopped long before.Max Mutchnick:I mean, that's nice. And I know that there are people who are in my position who feel like they've done it. And definitely the collision of a career and social justice, which kind of took place with Will and Grace, the idea that we did this thing and that it had a reverberation on another level should be enough. But I am still a guy with ambition and drive, and I still feel like I have more to say, and I'm not spoiled in that sense. I really don't want to be done at this age. And if anything, my ego is in a better place because I can even fantasize about the idea of being in a room that I wasn't running, which is crazy because that's in the middle of my career when it's at that really hot space. It's like, oh no, I could never be in a room that I wasn't in charge of. But that's not how I feel so much. But theMichael Jamin:Hours are so long and exhausting and you're like, sure, I'll work till two in the morning every night. Well,Max Mutchnick:I couldn't. That's the one thing I would don't feel like that is something that ever needs to be the case. I'm way into having dinner with my family, and I feel like it's after 10:00 PM it's diminishing returns. I actually think after 8:00 PM it's diminishing returns because emotionally you get so your skin starts to break out. You're eating out of styrofoam, and it's just not, it's so bad for where you are. You have to just love the fucking show you're on. Can I say bad word? YouMichael Jamin:Can say, sure. You can say show.Max Mutchnick:You have to love where you are so much to be working late or own. ButMichael Jamin:How did you keep, were the hours good on Will and Grace?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Because we've run a meritocracy and we always have, and that is the best idea will out. So I don't care if it comes from a LB like Michael Jamin or if it comes from John Acquaintance, wherever the best idea and wherever the most honest idea that's organic to the characters comes, and that's the one we're going with. And I'm very, I think one of the things you master or you have to master to be a showrunner that works well and runs a tight ship is the ability to say no quickly and without a lot of ting. So I'm going to say no, and I'm going to say it quickly, and it's going to feel like it hits you hard, and maybe it does. But in order for us to run a tight ship, that's just the way that it has to go. Famously, one of the best showrunners of all time, David Crane, I guess really, it was very democratic and everybody got to talk and pitch, and he didn't cut things off fast. I mean, sometimes there's a German there and you've got to find it and tease it out and stuff like that. But for the most part, immediately, no, that's not the way that we're going. And no, that's not the way the character.Michael Jamin:And they had long hours in that show,Max Mutchnick:Very, very long hours. They famously worked really late. And I was also listening to you the other day talk about those schools of,Michael Jamin:And that's what I was going to get to.Max Mutchnick:Yeah. And you could say that you talked about, there's the Friends school. I think there's also the Diane English strain. Did you mention that one?Michael Jamin:No, I did. I only really mentioned the one that I thought I came from, I think I came from, which was Frazier. Cheers Taxi. Right.Max Mutchnick:And I call that that's the David Lloyd's, I mean,Michael Jamin:And Chris Lloyd, yeah. Okay. What would you say your lineage would be then? And do you agree with that?Max Mutchnick:Yes, I did. I agreed with everything you said. I mean, my lineage is actually, it's a must see TV sound. It's an NBC, it comes down, but that's really the friend sound. And I come from that because my first real job was on Dream on which Martin David created. And then I came in late. David and I came in late on that show, but I also come from the Diane English School because Michael Patrick King was such a giant influence in my sound,Michael Jamin:And that was good advice or whatMax Mutchnick:Good advice. But he had come from Murphy Brown. Right, of course. So if you worked at Murphy Brown, you prayed at the altar and English. I mean, but those friends people, they just spawned so much, soMichael Jamin:Much. But you don't run the show the way they did, though.Max Mutchnick:Not at all. No, not at all. Yeah. We learned as much on shows from what not to do than from what to do. The benefit of being on shows where there, it's just, and I'm not using David Crane as an example because I've never been in a room with him, but we have been in rooms where either we weren't used or there was just endless talk that went absolutely nowhere and the decisions weren't made to just, that's good. That's it. Put it up on the board. You can get there very fast and not like there is a famous school that I don't want to talk about that it's good enough. It's good enough. It's good. Enough's not what I'm talking about. I don't do, it's good enough. But there is a world of shows that's run with that ethos.Michael Jamin:See, I thought one of the first, the advice that we got when we started running shows was I think it was Steve Levitan who said, just pick away, even if it's wrong, pick away. Yes. Or you lose the room.Max Mutchnick:Yes. I mean, it's like you can fu around forever about, oh, what you want to do with your life. I don't necessarily know that this was what I was going to do, but it happened and I went for it, and I got rewarded at a certain point. I feel like if you get rewarded in something that you're doing within six months to 12 months, stay there.Michael Jamin:Were you running a show that wasn't your own, it was your first job at, or No,Max Mutchnick:I'm I'm rare. I'm rare in that regard that I was at Emerson in college, and my dear friend was a comic named Anthony Clark. And Anthony called me and said, they're making shows now in la and there's a company that's very focused on writers who have strong relationships with standup comics. And the company was Castle Rock. And Larry David was just making Seinfeld at that time. And the guy that ran the company with Rob Reiner was a wonderful man named Glenn Paddick. And he gave us our first break, but we had to go into Warren Littlefields office as these young guys and argue for why would I ever give a show on this golden network to two guys that have never done the job before? You've never run a show.Excuse me. I was on single guy. So I mean, I had worked, but I had never run a show. The first time I ran a show and I wasn't even close to running a show. I was a co-producer. And I went in there and I said to him after I got David Cohan a white shirt with a collar like, you have no idea. The Prince of a collar and a what? The difference that it makes put on a goddamn buttoned up shirt. And we go and we sit in there and I say to Mr. Littlefield, who I owe a great deal to, if you give me the keys to the car, I promise not to scratch the car. And if I scratch the car, you can take the keys away. You can bring in whoever you want. They can oversee me, but just give me, literally give me a week, give me a show, and I already know what to do and not to do, and I'll run this thing the right way.Michael Jamin:Wait, this was before you wrote the pilot? This was just to get the chance to,Max Mutchnick:We had written the pilot and they wanted to make it. Oh, okay. And then they said to our agents, or they said to Glenn Pad, Nick, these guys have no experience. You've got to go get showrunners. And I was just so anti the idea that someone was going to creatively be open, and I asked for the meeting and I begged him, and I kind of tell that story. And the whole truth of that story is a day or two before he went to our agent and said, I want someone at that table read who runs a show. I want an experienced showrunner in case at the pilot table read, they fall apart. And God bless the writing team of Roberto, Roberto Bebe and Carl Fink, even Fink, I think. And I could be getting that wrong, and I hope someone calls us out on it. But anyway, those guys were so cool. And they sat at the table read, and we got our notes, and then they walked up to us on the stage where we were shooting the show on Radford, and they were like, you got this boys, we'll see you later. And we never saw again. Really. And then we were show running.Michael Jamin:Did you bring top heavy writers to the firstMax Mutchnick:David's sister who wasn't the superstar,Michael Jamin:Right. That she's nowMax Mutchnick:WasMichael Jamin:I'm talking about your first staff I'm talking about.Max Mutchnick:Yes, I know. Yes. Really. And I don't know who the third one was. I remember there being, it was a mini room before. It was self-imposed before it was imposed on us. And it was just this very tiny group because David and I didn't know how to ate and do all that. And we figured we would do all of the heavy lifting, which was not possible. And we eventually brought in Carrie Lizer, but we started with a very, very tiny group of writers and just crawled our way through.Michael Jamin:Wow. Yes. It's cool. Should we spend the next 59 minutes talking about the single guy, or should we continue talking aboutMax Mutchnick:Your No, no. Can't talk about that show. But it was really cool to work with Ernest Borgne, and I'll just put it to you. Yes. What is the, I'm going to ask you a trivia question.Michael Jamin:JohnnyMax Mutchnick:What?Michael Jamin:Johnny was his name?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Wasn't it? Yes. I went to high school with him, so that's not, and his dad was Johnny Silverman's father was David Cohen's rabbi in real life. Oh, wow. But I mean, we lived in an industry town. That's what it was. But no, Ernest Borg nine, in addition to having a wife that was a cosmetics had of cosmetics Dynasty, Tova nine was the name of all the lotions and potions. Earnest Hemmingway, little known Borg. What?Michael Jamin:Borgnine, not Hemmingway. Not Hemmingway.Max Mutchnick:Shit, that would be so bad. Ernest Borgne had the best collection of what? Does anybody knowMichael Jamin:Doug?Max Mutchnick:No, no, no. He had a good one though.But moving on, he had the best collection of Abraham Lincoln memorabilia because on the weekends, he used to go to Beacons moving and he would sell off the dregs of whatever was left in a truck that people didn't pick up. And one time he went and he bought a painting, and it was of Abraham Lincoln, and he takes it to wherever, Sotheby's or Heritage, whatever he did. And it turns out to be one of only two portraits ever painted of Abraham Lincoln while he was in office. Wow. That started this epic collection. We've digressed into such boring stuff. And I blame you. IMichael Jamin:Blame you. I brought up,Max Mutchnick:You're running this room. You could cut me off at any point.Michael Jamin:No, I could not. But let me ask you this, though. You've created so many shows, and obviously the writers are the same. So what is it, why was Will Grace, why that one not the other ones? Why was that one that blew up?Max Mutchnick:Well, I think I have a glitch in my casting programming. I didn't know to second guess myself in the way that I did after Will and Grace. I mean, it's a great question because it is the thing that, if anything, it could be a regret in my life. It's that I haven't made great decisions at crunch time andMichael Jamin:Wait, so you think it was casting decisions, you think, but you don't get to catch.Max Mutchnick:You put it on the page, and then it's these brilliant actors that have to operate in a medium that's not respected, but possibly the hardest form of acting. And there are very, very few people that can do it as well as the ones that we know. And Jim Burrows always says it's lightning in a bottle.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is.Max Mutchnick:So it's that, and it's less Moonves also being not great to me.Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, I was going to say, every casting decision has been approved by a million other people. It's not like you could, right?Max Mutchnick:I know. And you want to believe it at the time, and you get in there and you sell, and you do your thing. And then sometimes you don't believe in a person that's going into a cast, but Les has got a thing for that person, so they go in there. But by the way, that man gave me a lot of breaks, and he was good to me for a period in my life, but I also think he did some super fucked up things to our shows too. Partners should have stayed on the air, and he took partners off the air too quickly, and no one had done anything like that. And they should have explored a gay guy and a straight guy being best friends. That's an interesting area.Michael Jamin:What is it? But you guys mostly work in sitcom. I know you did some movie work, but is that just the form you wanted to be in? Is there any other itch you have?Max Mutchnick:No, not really. It just kept, I mean, we kept every few years when they say it's back, we want them, let's go to people that know how to make on that list. And I mean, I'm doing it again, by the way, since this strike is over, and I hope that they work.Michael Jamin:What you're taking outMax Mutchnick:Multicam Ideas couple. Yeah. Yeah. We're working on a couple of Multicam right now that I'm really excited about, but I would love to not do it anymore. I would love to not do it anymore.Michael Jamin:What do you mean you'd love to not do it? I don't understand. IMax Mutchnick:Would love to write what I think single camera comedies are, which is a beautiful, when it's done exquisitely. I think it's, if you write Fleabag, that's like the masterpiece.Michael Jamin:It was a masterpiece, but it was a play. I remember watching you go, this is a play.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, but you can't, I don't know. You can't knock it like that. It doesn't, oh,Michael Jamin:It's not a knock. I mean, it's a compliment. I mean, these long monologues, and it's just not done. ButMax Mutchnick:She still was so brilliant that she figured out, she figured something out about how to make great fuckingMichael Jamin:Episodes. Oh, listen, we're on the same page. I was a masterpiece fricking masterpiece. And what I like about it is that it does feel like a play to me. It's really, it's conversational and it's intimate and brave. It's courageous, man. Man.Max Mutchnick:I think it's the final 20 minutes of the second season. I think that it, it'd be hard pressed to find a better single camera comedy ever written. Yeah, I agree. From the moment the priest shows up at her apartment to sleep with her. And I think that goes straight to the end. I don't know. Beat for beat where I've ever seen it, where I've ever watched a better script.Michael Jamin:How do you feel when you watch something like that? What does that do to you? Because you're a professional writer with a huge, great track record. How does that make you feel?Max Mutchnick:I only have that attitude of the more, the merrier. It's only good to me if you're asking me in a coded way, am I ever jealous of somethingMichael Jamin:A little? Yeah.Max Mutchnick:I mean, yeah. Would I like to have created the bear? Sure. Yes. But I'm more proud of Chris store and impressed that I know him, and I love, and I love that that happens. I mean, I get more offended by the bad stuff. I just can't stand the bad stuff, the good stuff. I'm like, God damn, that's exciting. That got made, and somebody left that writer alone and their vision was carried through to the end.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content, and I know you do because listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michael jamin.com and now back to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking aboutWill and Grace, you could tune in an episode, and you knew you were in for some big, big laughs every episode. And I don't know, you were inviting these friends into your home every week. That's what it felt like. You were inviting your friends over. And there's an art to that.Max Mutchnick:Yes. And there's an art to picking the best writers that money can buy, which is what Will and Grace always had. I mean, the star power in the writing room at Will and Grace was spectacular. And I mean, to a person, it had the best run of writers, but the only time it went off the rails is if the heart got taken out of a story. And if the heart wasn't there, then the thing didn't hold up. That's right. And so you have to lay a foundation in the first act and make sure that all that stuff is true and real at the beginning. And then you can go kind of wherever you want in the second act. Then you can get nuts and then resolve in a very real way. But if you don't actually start from a true place of, oh my God, I cannot believe you are sleeping with my brother, that hurts me so much. Why? Because you're mine. Whatever that story is, you want to just hit those notes that everybody understands.Michael Jamin:Now, when you rebooted Will and Grace, did you bring back the entire writing stuff?Max Mutchnick:We didn't bring back everybody, but brought back most everybody.Michael Jamin:And what's shocking about that you had this amazing writing staff and that they were available.Max Mutchnick:We had to be patient. We had to work a little bit of magic. And I also think, I mean, it's embarrassing for NBC, but David and I had out of pocket some fees.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? You wanted them that bad?Max Mutchnick:But it's worth it. It's worth it. It's like, oh, you, you're going to stop at 25 k an episode for this wildly talented person and for their integrity, and they need it to be 27 5. It's like, take it out of mine.Michael Jamin:Right.Max Mutchnick:And we had to give you the full truth on that. It was more with crew. With Crew that we did that.Michael Jamin:Did you want your old crew?Max Mutchnick:Yeah. I mean, there are people that you want, you want the show to sound the same and you want,Michael Jamin:What was it like bringing it back though, for you as a creator? ItMax Mutchnick:Was incredible, honestly. It was such an incredible thing. I mean, we brought it back thinking that Hillary Clinton was going to be president. And the twisted irony is that the game show host won the office, but it ended up really giving us stuff to write to, because if you're just preaching to the third that you have, it's like, what's fun about that? ButMichael Jamin:To me, I guess I'm interested in your characters are now much older. And now I wouldn't have thought when Will Grace ended? I'm not really thinking about where they're going to be years from now. I'm just done thinking about them.Max Mutchnick:I know, and it kind of did have a finality to it, but I mean, I've told the story, but the set was at Emerson. How was it? And it was done, and they were done with the installation, and it was getting moved back on a flatbed to la. And my husband and I were in London, and I was bereft about the way the election was going and sitting in the back of a cab, I said to him, if I had the show, I would have Karen training Rosario on a rock climbing wall. I would do a story about, you're going to go back to Mexico, but then you're going to climb back in after you go back. Right. And I just wanted that to see that visual of Shelly Morrison on a rock climbing wall and caring training her, and in response to him, those horrible policies. And Eric said to me, well, honey, why don't you just go do something about it and make it the set's where it is? All the actors are where they are, and they were amenable. Thank God, God bless them for doing that, because it didn't have to go that way. It wasMichael Jamin:Easy.Max Mutchnick:It was much easier than you would think to bring it all back together.Michael Jamin:Right. That's with the rebuilding. That's so interesting. When you guys are coming up with show ideas, I mean, are they just coming to you? Are you always coming up with ideas or is it like, okay, we got to come up with an idea?Max Mutchnick:No, I mean, I'm coming up with ideas all the time until someone pays me and then all of a suddenMichael Jamin:Nothing. Can't thinkMax Mutchnick:Of anything. Yeah. It's like, I don't know. I can't sleep. I mean, do you sleep? I don't turn. My brain doesn't shut off. And so I'm always kind of thinking about stuff. And by the way, we've written some of the things that I love the most that we've ever done. They've never seen the light of day. And I think that one of the little twisted crimes of our industry is the fact that agents and studios, if they have any sense that you've written something ago, that you wrote it back when they don't want to, it's like a loaf of bread or something like that, as opposed to a piece of art that it is still relevant. It still makes sense. These characters are vibrant and exist, but it feels like used goods even if it's never anywhere.Michael Jamin:And so you guys, your partner, you meet every day and you're coming up with ideas, or even when you're not,Max Mutchnick:I'm very good that way. I don't feel like I can stop and I don't want to stop. Dave is arguably a happier person, and he doesn't feel the same desire to beat himself to death. That's what it's, yeah. But we've had a dynamic for mean our daughters are very, very close, which Oh, really? A gift of life for both of us. But always, I mean, I say this in front of him and behind his back, our relationship has that lovely Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin, sort of one of us is in love with the other one, and one of us doesn't care. And Dave's just like, but he's my brother. So he's not like he's going anywhere. But it's just like, stop trying so fucking hard. I get a little sweaty when I don't need to.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, you've had so much success. It occurred to me. I just remember one time I was over at your place once, I don't remember where you were living, but I remember you had Enya on.Max Mutchnick:It's so crazy. So wait, I'm going to make my relationship to Enya. I'm going to bring it back to writing sitcoms because Okay. My anxiety has always been a present part of who I am and what you referred to as the fun of coming into my office. Yeah, you're right. But it's driven by a kind of anxiety and on, I guess it would've been good advice for Michael Patrick King. I was having such heavy, crazy anxiety. Anxiety to the point of passing out anxiety that I had to go every time we had a break down to my car and listen to Anya on AC cd.Michael Jamin:Is it because you're worried you're going to be fired? Is that whyMax Mutchnick:I just didn't have that? There's a, that very scary moment of existing in a writing room of what your output is. Like Jeff Astrof, by the way, such an incredible writer in a room, such a good room person. But he lives by the thing. If I don't put a joke into that script today, I can't go to bed tonight. And that drives a person. And I just was in these, so you have to get, but Michael Petra king got me a little bit more comfortable with, I listen to you sometimes and I watch you construct comedy on the fly, and I am impressed with it. And I think, what the fuck? Can't I still do that? But I tap into something different. I tap into a different thing because I think life just across the board, other than rape and cancer and Israel is pretty much, everything is funny. And I feel really good about exploring the most uncomfortable truths of my life, and that's where I get the stuff from. But I wasn't there. I wasn't there, and certainly not at the beginning. And Dave Cohan comes from such a pedigree family that it was second nature to him to just construct really clever wordplay and stuff like that. And I was really panicked about that at the beginning.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because you know that in the room of writers, if I'm going to choose a team of writers and I have eight picks, the first eight are story people, not joke people.Max Mutchnick:And that's that generic question you ask a writer when you interview them. So what do you think you're best at story or, well, really good at story, right? They're really good at story.Michael Jamin:You're good at stories.Max Mutchnick:You can tell a fucking story.Michael Jamin:None of you'reMax Mutchnick:Good. It's crazy. It's crazy how many people can't tell a story or the joke thing of you want to say to people and you don't. It's like, okay, close your eyes. Go to the table, put that joke in the actor's mouth and tell me the response that you hear. Do you actually hear people laughing at those words? Because that's how I always do it. I'm like, and then it becomes second nature. Yeah, that sounds right. They will make ew. She'll make ew funny. That will get a laugh. That will get a laugh. But it's always shocking to me like the clunkiness sometimes that's pitched and it's like, that's not going toMichael Jamin:Work. Yeah. Yeah. How funny. How funny.Max Mutchnick:And if I'm calm and you got time, it's like you can try to get it, but you want a Michael Jamin in your room to just give it to you. Done.Michael Jamin:Oh, give it to me. Done. It's so interesting. Go starting out. I was just a joke guy. And then you won't keep your job long if that's all you understand, right?Max Mutchnick:No, you have to be able to, because you go to that run through and the entire back half of that story falls apart. So you have to be a technician to say, if you do this and you do that, the back half will, as we say, it's an F 12, it will write itself. It never does that, unfortunately. But I will tell you this, speaking of that, during all of this AI and the strike, and my writer's assistant that's been with me for a very long time, and I won't say his name because he hates that he's a writer's assistant, but he's incredible. A friend gave him a Will and Grace, an AI written Will and Grace.Michael Jamin:Oh, andMax Mutchnick:I mean, this is the upsetting part.Michael Jamin:No, don't go there. Don't say any of this. What isMax Mutchnick:It? I know. I mean, but the truth is, it's like, well, if this is what came to me, if I sent a team off, if I sent a group off and I said, Karen and Jack are going to have a garage sale, bring me back that story. I want two, I mean, I'd break the scenes with them, but two scenes of the first act, two scenes in the second act, it's AB story. Bring that back to me. It wasn't like it was so far off.Michael Jamin:Wasn't so far off. So better than staff writer.Max Mutchnick:This isMichael Jamin:Scary.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, no, I know. I mean, I don't know. It's like if it was in front of me, we could even read it, but I don't have it. I don't want to give any credit to that, but I'm going to name drop. But I told that story to Norman Lear at dinner not too long ago, and he told me that someone had done it for him too on, I think it was on all of the Family. And I believe that we agreed that it wasn't an abomination.Michael Jamin:This makes me sick a little bit.Max Mutchnick:Oh, it's sickening. Yeah, completely sickening. Because it calls 246 episodes of Will and Grace. It figures out what those people sound like. I mean, look, if I delivered, I wouldn't deliver it at a table read. It would still, it would be that thing that I was talking about. There wouldn't be laughs. It didn't have, it didn't have heart construction. Yeah, but good enough. Yeah, but it could go right. That's a callback number 56 onMichael Jamin:Callback. Good enough. I posted about James Burrows yesterday about what he said. I dunno if you saw,Max Mutchnick:Oh, I did. And we should talk about that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's, because he basically said, and I think it was misinterpreted a little, that there are, there's only about 30 great writers to do sitcoms. And what I think he meant was 30 great showrunners or potential showrunners, not writers. ButMax Mutchnick:Yeah, I absolutely didn't agree with him. And you started to talk about it, and then always, I kind of turn you off about five minutes, but I will say this, it's like you hit on exactly what it is. The reason why we like it is because Multicam are the comfort Food of America. I mean, that is the show. You want your kid, when they come home from school, turn on an episode of friends and watch that thing, and then dinner will be ready and it goes down easy and you love it. You even can know where it's going, and it's still satisfying. But I didn't agree with Jim, and I hope that he was misquoted because I am not sure that it's over because of how much it's actually liked by Go ahead and create. Everybody loves Raymond and I dare America to not want to watch it.Michael Jamin:Well, okay, growing up, there was a show called Small Wonder. It was one of these syndicated whatever. And I would watch that. And I said to my partner recently, I was like, how come we can't get on small wonder? Where are those shows put on Small wonder? I'd rather be happy working on Small Wonder. But they don't exist.Max Mutchnick:Well, no one programs that way anymore. I still believe if someone made the commitment, I mean, they must have papered this out somewhere, but I always think, shit, if I ran a network, I would ask the higher ups. Can I please develop sitcoms from eight to 10, put them on the air, and will you give me a guarantee that I get to put them on the air for two years straight, all four of them? Because it doesn't happen like a movie. It doesn't happen. I mean, you try really hard, but it's a fluke to get anybody to get a pilot off the ground in that a scene. They don't know anybody. Right. It's the hardest thing in the world. But I believe that if Multicam, I believe that they weren't driven by star casting because star casting always fucks up a multicam. Of course, there are examples of big stars that have made shows work like Charlie and Julia even. But I mean, there's that list of names that if we weren't being recorded, I would just say it's all these fucking famous people that aren't funny. AndMichael Jamin:Wait, is it because you think they get executive producer and they give notes and they change it? They make the show what they want it to be, you mean?Max Mutchnick:Yeah. I mean, I don't give a shit about that, but that's all bad. Jim Burrows, though, won't allow that, which is a gift, though. The world is so changed that if Miley Cyrus wants to do a sitcom, by the way, I think Miley Cyrus is the only sitcom actor who is able to move the needle. They push you during sweeps. Can you get a Shatner? If we could get Shatner on Big Bang, I know we'll write, that's probably not a good example because it probably worked. But for the most part, shows just get what they get. They always get what they get. It doesn't matter. These co-stars and these, none of that matters,Michael Jamin:Right? No.Max Mutchnick:Is it funny? And do you like the people? Do you like the people? And do you like the world that they're in?Michael Jamin:That's what actually, and that is a good segue to what I wanted to talk about as well. Shit, my dad says, you guys were on the forefront. That was a Twitter popular What? ItMax Mutchnick:Was the first one.Michael Jamin:Right? The first ones. So I'm saying you were on the forefront. You were the first ones who did that. And I remembering because it was based on the Twitter feed, I remember thinking, is this what's going on now? And yes. Yes, it is.Max Mutchnick:I know. I mean, it's funny. I remember when I was a kid and all of a sudden in the music scene, there was punk rock. And I remember being a worried Jewish boy saying to my mother, ma, I think punk rock's going to ruin the world. I think punk rock's going to ruin the world. And it was like all of a sudden, Twitter, a Twitter account, a tweet for Justin Alper. Brilliant. I mean, creator Elementary with Pat Schumacher, and this was Justin's, it was his account, but at a beginning, middle to an end, when you heard it, it was just like, shit, my dad says, it's just like, well, inside that line, speaking of Hemmingway, the best story, the shortest story ever written.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What is it?Max Mutchnick:Baby Shoes for Sale, never Worn.Michael Jamin:Right? Right.Max Mutchnick:They might be out of order, but those are the words I think, and shit my dad says was like, oh my God. You know exactly what that is. That's a son with being embarrassed by a father that he loves. So it was all there. It was there. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But if, I don't know, was there ever a moment like now, sure. Oh, this guy, this person has a big Twitter feed. Yes, bring him in. Let's talk with them. Right. But was there a moment when you were doing this? Are we really basing a show on a Twitter feed? I mean, I know you saw more, but I would've been worried.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, yeah. But it was literary. I mean, I don't know. Justin was just so sharp and smart, and there were ideas immediately, so it didn't feel hacky at all. But by the way, I will say this, it was one of the handful of terrible, deadly fatal casting mistakes that I made in giving the job of the Sun to the actor that we did when the actor of the hundreds of people that we read for that part, there was only one guy who came in and he was a slam dunk, and he was the one, and he was the only one of all the 500 men that read for the part that Bill Shatner said, that's the guy. And that guy was David Rum, HoltzMichael Jamin:Rum,Max Mutchnick:David m, it was so there in the room. Yeah. I forgot it was him. He understood everything. And I brought some of my own bullshit to it, and so did everybody else. David didn't, he didn't look like we wanted it. Look, we wanted a cuter person and all kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Pretty, it's so funny. We did a show with him years later. Crummy Sweet kid, sweet guy. Interesting.Max Mutchnick:Wow. Forgot about that. Yeah. Such a talented guy. Such talentedMichael Jamin:Guy. Yeah. Interesting.Max Mutchnick:And a brother in neurosis.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me talk about that, because you tend to put yourself into the characters you write. And how hard is that is difficult for you? Does everyone know that it's you, IMax Mutchnick:Guess? I think so. I mean, well, I only tell the stories in first person. I mean, I don't say, I have a friend who had sex with a Chauffeur for Music Express. I tell the story about what I did and how embarrassing it was and what I did and what I did to recover from it. And I got very comfortable with that. And it's made it possible to tell a lot of stories because that's what I have.Michael Jamin:But on the flip side, are you sometimes protective of the character when someone else pitches an idea and Well, I wouldn't do that. Well, it's not you. It's,Max Mutchnick:Oh my God. No. If it feels true, and it sounds true, I completely, I mean, I'm not going to go back on what I said. If your story is fantastic and it's not nuts, I mean, I want to tell that I want tell that story. Right? I mean, those are the ones that I, the ones that really like are like, oh, Jesus Christ, that's so uncomfortable. That's so uncomfortable and so awkward. And we have to do that. We have to tell that story.Michael Jamin:Did you start on your shows that you run, do you start every morning with like, Hey, what's everybody up to? Are you trying to pull stories out of people, personal storiesMax Mutchnick:We call a host chat?Michael Jamin:Is that what you called it? Yeah,Max Mutchnick:We call a host chat, because when I first started out, I knew I had a rundown of, I think Regis. Regis and who is Frank ER's wife?Michael Jamin:Kathy Lee.Max Mutchnick:Kathy Lee. Kathy Lee. And it's called Host Chat, by the way. It might've been on,Michael Jamin:Mike Madia was called that as well. Yeah. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:I mean, that's where it comes from. It doesn't come from Regis, it comes from that. And David, and I mean, it's arguably sometimes the best part of the day.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, it's funny. You guys set up Mike and Maddie, and then you bounced off that show probably in a matter of months. And then I took, I took the job that you vacated and I was thrilled. And with you was, I dunno. For me, it was like, oh my God, this is this giant opportunity. And you guys, this is your temporary gig.Max Mutchnick:Oh, well, it wasn't a temporary gig. It was a fall from Grace. I mean, I think we had already been working, something was going on in our career, either we were in between agents or something, but that was an absolute blight. I mean, it was terrible. That experience.Michael Jamin:And why, what was it For me,Max Mutchnick:We were WGA primetime,Michael Jamin:And that was not all ofMax Mutchnick:Sudden we're writing a strip bullshit show with two hosts that hate each other. And I mean, a great thing came out of it though, the first week of the run of those shows, David Cohan is in all of the sketches.Michael Jamin:Oh, I didn't know that.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, David, we wrote him into the sketches. He played kind of this dumb PA character, and we would do these cold opens that they could never make them work. They could never make work because Maddie couldn't act. And Mike was always frustrated. But Dave's in them, they're online, I believe, and they're pretty funny.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. HowMax Mutchnick:Funny. Yeah, it's incredible.Michael Jamin:And so I guess going forward, as I take up a lot of your time here, what do you see going forward with the industry? I don't know. What does it lookMax Mutchnick:Like to you? That's one thing I won't do. It's the more I realize how little I know kind of thing. I believe this. I believe that good shows always will out. They will always happen. And even in spite of the system. So I think that that can happen. But I don't know. I'll tell you, in six months, I can come back and we'll talk about whether the multicam that I have in the hopper right now, if they work and if they get on the schedule, because things just, it just doesn't happen anymore.Michael Jamin:People think, yeah, people, when you're in it, you're made well, your next job is never guaranteed.Max Mutchnick:I don't like that 50 something year old guy that doesn't work anymore. I don't want to be that. I don't that person and I can be okay. I guess reflecting, looking back on, I tried really hard and I kind of want to, this might be embarrassing, but I really would like to show myself that I have not disconnected from the popular culture that I can tap into the way people feel still. And I'm not just a guy making dad jokes. I mean, I'm not that guy anyway. My daughters, that's not their experience. So it is just a matter of can I get the system to work on my behalf?Michael Jamin:What do you tell young writers trying to break in then giveMax Mutchnick:Advice that there's always room for one more. I mean, I still feel that way, but I feel like you've got to be, if you get on a show, I think the goal is to parrot the showrunner.Yes. Make the sound that he's making. Don't make some other weird Crispin Glover sound. Make the sound that he's making, and then improve upon that act. It's like actors that you hire to do a guest spot on a show, and they kill it, and you hire them, and then they get on the floor and they give you something else. It's like, no, no, no. Do exactly the thing that we hired you for. So a writer, it's like, I read your spec script. I love it. I love your tone. I loved talking to you. And by the way, in that meeting, I'm thinking as much about what's it going to be like to do post chat with this person and do anything else? Because I don't know that I should say this, but I will because I don't stop myself. A lot of times when we meet writers, we read them after we met them,Michael Jamin:You read 'em afterMax Mutchnick:They have a thing. If they're in the system to the point that the studio and the network are saying, oh yeah, we love this person. We think this person is great. This person's just come out of NYU. We think you'll help this person. Right? You've got to meet this guy, or you've got to meet this woman, this human. I sit down with them and then it's like, okay, you are,Michael Jamin:I wouldn't trust anything they say, though. That's the thing. Why? What do you mean? Well, because you got to meet this writer, and they're like, but I don't think they know what I'm looking for in a writer. That's the thing.Max Mutchnick:But it's like both have equal power in the hiring. So it's like you meet them, do I like them? You can read a script and then all of a sudden you imbue all the stuff that, and they're just like, Ugh. They're a drip. And they're not cool. And they're not easy to talk to. I mean, by the way, mean if the script's brilliant, you're going to hire them. But well,Michael Jamin:Also, I imagine we're also intimidated by your success too. It's not easy to sit opposite you guys,Max Mutchnick:But we try really hard to pull that out of the room as fast as we can because it gets in the way. And like I said, it's like I won't really comment on our position in the world and that kind of stuff. I just can't even think about that. If someone's coming in to talk to us, I feel as much want them to. I'm still the same as my husband says, everybody has diarrhea. It's like, I want them to like me.Michael Jamin:You still sob to Enya?Max Mutchnick:Yes. That I don't do anymore. I do. I'm a little bit my spine's illustrator. I don't have one way of doing anything is really the moral of the whole.Michael Jamin:Wow, max, I'm so appreciative that you took the time. I don't know, just to talk because oh my God, you have so much wisdom to share. It's just so interesting to hear your journey, and I don't know.Max Mutchnick:It is a joy to talk to you, and I don't usually enjoy these things as much as I have that says everything about you, andMichael Jamin:It's atMax Mutchnick:Ease. Yeah. I mean, you're just easy and good and smart and everything. A lot. I mean, your commentary throughout the strike was just fantastic and on point. And you were putting yourself out there in a way. AndMichael Jamin:Ballsy is what IMax Mutchnick:Ballsy. Ballsy. Yes, that's right. I mean, one gets scared making things when you have, I guess you don't have that much to lose.Michael Jamin:That's pretty much it. That's pretty much it. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:So can you just tell me before we say goodbye? Yeah. What are you working on?Michael Jamin:Well, we're going to talk more. We're done talking. Okay.Max Mutchnick:Okay. So do you want to wrap it up? Do we sing or what do we do?Michael Jamin:Yeah. We hug virtually and we tell everyone to be their best creative versions of themselves.Max Mutchnick:That's exactly right.Michael Jamin:Encourage people. There's roomMax Mutchnick:For one more.Michael Jamin:I love that. There's room for one more. So if you're listening always. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:No matter what it is. And God damn, I wish I could sing the theme for, I mean, if you have your sound engineer, why don't you just have your sound engineer fade in the theme from the Mike and Maddie show written by Charles Luman.Michael Jamin:MicMax Mutchnick:Shine. It's a beautiful day in America.Michael Jamin:I'm not paying for that needle drop. I got my own music. HeMax Mutchnick:Doesn't need the money.Michael Jamin:I'll talk to him. Okay. All right. Thank you again, max. I really appreciate it, Janet. Yeah. Okay. And don't go anywhere. Alright everyone, we got another more great episodes. Wasn't that interesting talk? He's a great guy. Go watch him. Go watch Will and Grace again. It's ageless. Alright, thanks so much everyone, until next week.So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com /webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

This week on Just Jack & Will, will he/won't he and is he/isn't he, as Will and Grace find themselves fighting over the same guy in one of series co-creator Max Mutchnick's favorite-ever episodes. Sean & Eric discuss the usual: needlepoint, elevator doors, golf clubs, cabanas, and gaydar, oh my. Then, they welcome composer and Sean's actual human husband, Scott Icenogle, to talk about watching Sean watch his own show, and what Will & Grace taping Scotty saw before they even met. Ahhh, Mombasa. Have a question about Will & Grace, especially Season 1? We want to hear them! Email us at JustJackAndWill@gmail.com, call or text to 818-308-4012, maybe the guys will answer your question on the show!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

This week on Just Jack & Will, oh brother, it's a big bonus size two-parter, the first To Be Continued in Will & Grace history! Sean & Eric cover both installments of this family affair, as Will's estranged brother Sam comes to town, and it takes Grace to make the peace, to break the peace, and Jack and Karen to lay down some hard truths. Then, they welcome co-creators and co-writers of these episodes, Max Mutchnick and David Kohan, to talk about building out our characters' family lives, FINGO-U, and the surreptitious sneeze that was not heard all around the world. Honey, if catty were a perfume, you'd reek of it.Have a question about Will & Grace, especially Season 1? We want to hear them! Email us at JustJackAndWill@gmail.com, call or text to 818-308-4012, maybe the guys will answer your question on the show!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On this week's episode, television veteran Michael Burger (Family Feud, Price is Right, Mike and Maty, and many many more) talks about his showbiz career. He looks back on memories from working on cruise ships as well as being able to work with some of his idols.SHOW NOTESMichael Burger's IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0121221/Michael Burger's Website: https://www.michaelburger.com/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTSMichael Jamin:So when you shoot a multi-camera sitcom the audience, they bring in an audience and it could take, I dunno, it could easily take five hours to shoot a half hour of television.Michael Burger:22 minutes. Five and a half. Yeah. Five hours to shoot. 22.Michael Jamin:And so what's the audience doing while they're resetting the scenes or the actors are changing?Michael Burger:Well, I've got a lot of stories. Some. I had a guy die once. What? And I just thought he was taking a nap. Yeah. I kept looking up going, God, I don't, A comic wants everybody engaged. Right? And he's just, and at the end, he's not leaving every, the bus is gone and they card him out and he died on the way to the hospital. I guess they revived him, then he died.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael. Hey everyone, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael. I got a cool guest today. So as many of you know, my very first comedy writing job in Hollywood, I was a joke writer on a morning TV show on a b C called the Mike and Maddie Show. And my next guest is Michael Berger, the host of Mike and Mad Mike, thank you so much for joining me here. A areMichael Burger:You nice to see and reconnect with you again? It's been a fewMichael Jamin:And you are this, I know you're not quite a screenwriter, but I think have a lot to, I don't know, just a lot to add to the conversation because you're a professional talk show host and you posted so much. I'm going to blow through some of your credits real fast just so people, but don'tMichael Burger:Blow through 'em. I want you to land on 'em and marinate on 'em for a while.Michael Jamin:Let's linger on them unnecessarily for a long time. So obviously Mike and Maddie, but the Home and Family Feud, the live version as well as the Price is right, the live version, thousand Dollars Pyramid Match Game, iron Chef Personals, the Late Night Dating Show Straight to the Heart, not to mention your long history as a standup comedian on cruise ships, and then later doing warmup. I want for audiences for sitcom audiences, which I know you've, we've been on any of the same shows, which is, that's a whole nother level of comedy. I want to talk about that. But first I want to talk about where you began. It was, how did you become a comedian for cruise ships?Michael Burger:Well, a lot of these entries into showbiz come in through the side door. And this was certainly the case. I was a big fan of Steve Martin and back in the late seventies, there was a contest where they were looking for a Steve Martin lookalike and the payoff, the winner got a spot on the Tonight Show with Carson. So I figured this is my entry in, so I figured that I win this contest and I get my own show. Well,Michael Jamin:And you didMichael Burger:Well. You had to submit a cassette tape, audio cassette tape of you doing Steve Martin. No video cameras just a cassette. And they wanted that in theory, in front of a live audience while I had, I hadn't done any standup. There's no live audience, but my audience in the day was my classroom. So I went back to my high school and said, can I borrow the classroom and just do Steve Martin's material and I'll take my best cut from that. So I went to five teachers. I did five minute sets, and I submitted that tape with the best of the five to the radio station who said, yeah, great. Come on up to the tower records parking lot on Sunset, where there's 25 of us dressed like Steve Martin doing. You're a wild and crazy guy. I win that and go to San Francisco and I meet the western Halfie of the United States at the boarding house, and I win that. And the finals are at the Comedy store with the entire country represented. I'm one of six. Steve Martin is there, Carl Reiner is there. And the winner, the payoff is the Tonight Show spot. And I do, my thing and my twist on it was I came out white suit arrow through the head, no pants with boxers that said a B, C news brief.So I figured I'd add my joke and the guy I was up against that I thought was my competition, played banjo so well and looked like Steve. I thought, there's no way. Right. He does his bit, I do my bit. It's a tie between me and this guy from Nashville that looked like Steve. Steve Martin comes on stage and he's holding our wrists like a ref in a boxing match. And he holds up the other guy's hand. Okay, that guy wins. I lose, three months later I'm watching The Tonight Show and Johnny goes, oh, we have a guest tonight. And Steve Martin comes out and he's out for about 30 seconds and you realize it's not Steve. The real Steve comes out bound and gagged yelling, this guy's an imposter. That guy goes away. We never hear from him again. And that was my first taste at showbiz.Michael Jamin:And you were like, what? 20 something?Michael Burger:Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I was 27, 28. But what would you, somebody saw that and said, Hey, can you do that on a cruise ship? Can you do standup on a ship?Michael Jamin:But wait, what would've you done if you had won this? Because then you would've been on the Tonight Show, but you didn't have an act.Michael Burger:Well, I would do kind of what that kid did. The whole bit was to pay Steve Martin's movie off The Jerk that was coming out. And it was just a sight gag, but I certainly would've come up with something. And then, so what I wound up doing initially after that, and this is in the height of all the singing comedy telegrams, remember back in the day, dancing bears and roller skates? Yeah. So I did a Steve Martin lookalike Soundalike Comedy Telegram where Michael would hire me to make fun of somebody, and I would get all the information and I would go wherever they are, a bank, an office. I actually stopped a wedding once as Steve Martin air through the head white suit, hold on, I don't think this is right. And do a little Steve Martin thing. And there was a guy in the audience at a restaurant who came over after I just did this Rickles kind of riff. And he goes, that's very funny. Can you do ships? And I said, sure. And that's how I got on a cruise ship. And then I'd come on as Steve, and then I'd do my whole act after that, which I developed over time.Michael Jamin:But your act was basically kind of making fun of Steve, or was it all playingMichael Burger:Well, no, you quickly. No, I had some comedy ideas, but what I realized as soon as I got on the ship, 70% of the material comes from being on the ship. Right. I dunno if you've ever worked ships, but No. Oh, there's so much material. It's such a ripe group. And thenMichael Jamin:It's so interesting, you never even did the comedy clubs. You really came up your own way.Michael Burger:I really did. I did a few because of that little bit of notoriety, but the cruise ships were a better paying gig. You got to see the world and you really felt like you were in the business. You had a band behind you generally. There was an opening act. The only downside was if you didn't do well, you'd have to see these people for the next three days, four days, seven days.Michael Jamin:But howMichael Burger:Many I loved it.Michael Jamin:How many shows would you do on a, so you were like, let's say it was a seven day tour. How many shows would you do?Michael Burger:Two.Michael Jamin:That's it really?Michael Burger:Yeah. Yeah. I would do the three and four day cruises down to Ensenada and back. And so I would do welcome aboard show, I would be the headliner. I'd come out and do my hour, and then they said, you can do anything you want on Sunday night. So I'd go in the back lounge and then just try stuff. And that's really where you kind of learned what's funny, what's not. So I got to do, my God, for anybody listening that remembers the Catskills in those old days where you just work well clubs today, you go out and work material, I could go in that back room and I would go on at midnight and the buffet would start at midnight. And my goal as a performer was if I could keep people from getting up and leaving my show to go eat again, then I realized I had some pretty good material. So I would do an hour and a half, two hours in the back room.Michael Jamin:ButMichael Burger:The moment that really, maybe this is where you're headed, that launched my career was in the middle of the cruise. They had a passenger talent show. And on one of these cruises, the cruise director came up to me and said, Hey, can you fill in and host the Passenger Talent Show? I have other things to do. And he meant that as a verb. I mean, this guy was, he was all over the ship just right,Michael Jamin:Yeah. GoingMichael Burger:After whatever moved, you know what I mean? And I said, well, what do I do? And he goes, well, these people sign up throughout the week and then we turn 'em loose at midnight and they do whatever they do. Think America's Got Talent. And I said, well, what would you like me? Wait, introduce 'em, put a little show together, go at 11 o'clock at night, get with the piano player and you figure out maybe an order. I said, well, okay. It sounds like fun. So I did that. And I'm telling you, Michael, I had more fun doing that than any standup really. I had a chance to talk to somebody, where are you from? What do you do? And then you turn 'em loose. But because, and it's not unlike warmup where someone else is the star where someone else has the focus. You just set 'em up and turn 'em loose. Yeah. I had an 85 year old woman, get up and tap dance to the Lord's Prayer. You don't need to top that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. How do you, right.Michael Burger:I mean, I had everything. Right. So I started doing this and about at the same time, I was doing warmup for a game show. We're going to go way back now, a dance show called Dance Fever.Michael Jamin:Yes. WhichMichael Burger:Is again, these dancing shows, but way back, right.Michael Jamin:It was solid Gold and Dance Fever, those two shows. That'sMichael Burger:It. And they had three celebrity judges and they would judge the dancers. And the Cue card woman comes up to me on a commercial break and she goes, N B C is going to do a morning game show. And they want somebody new, somebody unknown, someone that no one's heard of. I said, that's me. I, I'm in the middle of the ocean. No one knows me. She goes, do you have a tape? I said, nah, I got a tape. Sure. I got a tape, I got no tape. So the very next cruise I go back on, I put 2,500 bucks on my credit card and I go buy that two piece video system where you had to buy the base unit, the head unit. And I brought that on the ship. I put it on a tripod, I put it back by the soundboard, and I pushed record and I videotaped every one of these passenger talent shows that I hosted and then cut everybody out.And it just kept my moment. My first demo tape was six minutes of me doing that. Right. So this woman at Dance Fever says, get me that tape. I'll get it to N B C. The two people in charge were Jake Talbert and Brian Franz. They were the presidents of daytime television, N B C. So she sends in the tape and I get a call, my agent and I come in, I have an agent at this point, and they go, do you know why you're here? And I said, yeah, Mary Steck was nice enough. I said, no, it's the guy at the end. I said, what do you mean the old guy? Yeah. What about him? Well, there's this charming old man that I'm introducing and playing with, and he grabs the mic out of my hand and goes, you must be saying something very funny, but I don't get it. Well, it's a huge laugh. And the N B C exec said the fact that that guy got the laugh and you let him have his moment and you didn't come back over with one more ad lib of your own tells me you got a sense of how to host. It's about making someone else shine. He said, we can teach you how to host a game show, but we can't teach you as the instinct to make someone else look better. Were youMichael Jamin:Aware of that though? I mean, we,Michael Burger:Not really. Yeah. I mean, I got better at it and I realized the sneaky joy of this is that if you get a laugh and get out of the way, put the onus back on them when you do a talk show. But when theyMichael Jamin:Said this to you, you're like, oh my God, I, I've been doing this all along and I didn't realize this. Or were you consciously doing that?Michael Burger:I think there was sort of a Midwest polite mentality, kind of how I was raised, don't interrupt, all that kind of stuff. It kind of goes part and parcel just being, I don't know, polite iss the perfect word. My dad was from Missouri, my mom was from Minnesota. We kind of raised in a polite family. I just thought that was the right thing. But I also realized that boy, you could use this to your advantage, 'em shine. And that I work at it to this day trying to be a better listener and try to be better at picking my moments. That's how it started. That's literally how my career started out at sea. AndMichael Jamin:Then so then what happened with that audition then?Michael Burger:So I got the pilot. I got the pilot for N B C Morning Talk show. My very first time on a lot is at N B C. And I'm parked six spots down from Johnny Carson. It's got a white Corvette. His license plate said 360 Guy thought that was a clever license plate all around Guy. Yeah. I'm six spots down from Carson. I just got off the boat. I am so far from showbiz. I'm walking on the set. We shoot the pilot at the same time. They're just about finished with a Tonight Show. We shot across the hall, very little security back in the eighties. I open the door and I walk in and I sit next to Gregory Peck. Colonel Michael going shelf is so easy. Yeah. He goes on, he comes out, I say, hi, Carson walks by, gives me one of these. Everybody walks out and we all go home. Kicker. The story is Pilot did not get picked up, but the production company, reg Grundy, who did all of those shows back in the day, sail of the Century and Scrabble, liked what I did and put me on retainer for a year to develop something else.Michael Jamin:But did they, and I never even asked you about Mike and Maddie did like Yeah. Did they coach you at all before you start doing this? Did they rehearse you or is it like, well, this is who we hired, let him do his thing?Michael Burger:It's a good question. In the game show world, when we were getting ready to do a game show, they would remind me that the first half of the game is fun and q and a and get some joy out of these contestants and root for 'em. And then when it shifts to the bonus round, there really needs to be a shift in tone. This money is serious money and this can change someone's life and this is not the place to go for a joke. Let's kind of shift the focus and really be there for 'em and root for 'em and console them if they lose and be happy for 'em when they win. So there was a little bit of that. Some of it, it's, most of it's just learning where your beats are, getting in and getting out.Michael Jamin:What about Mike in the game show world or home family, same kind of thing?Michael Burger:Well, Mike and Maddie was a whole nother league that was morning network everywhere in the country. And I was working with someone, which I had never done. So I came in for the audition and did well. And the woman I had auditioned with, they had a deal to put in place to put her on the air. And as I was driving home, my agent called and said, I don't know what happened in there, but they now want to do the show with you. And they're letting her go. Said, oh, well don't give her my address.Michael Jamin:AndMichael Burger:He said, we now have to find a woman to pair up with you for this morning talk show. And I thought, well, how do we do that? I said, well, Disney will set it all up. This is a dizzy production. And I auditioned and I audition's not even the right word. I sat down with 85 women and just said, how you doing? How you doing? And we just tried to see if there was any chemistry. It's like dating somebody. Is there there a connection? Maddie?Michael Jamin:This I had? No, I, I'm sorry, I have to interrupt. But this I had no idea about becauseMichael Burger:Yeah,Michael Jamin:It seems like they sell a show to A, B, C, they go, it's going to beMichael Burger:Morning show. We know, actually, let me back up. This show is going to be in syndication for Disney, which they could syndicate across the country and do anything. ABC's not involved at thisMichael Jamin:Moment.Michael Burger:So they had a development deal with this woman. They passed on, they put me in the spot. Now they got to pair me up. They pair me up, Maddie and I had instant chemistry. And about an hour after her audition, they say, we love you both. Let's do it. So we shot a pilot right at K H J on Melrose, a $40,000 pilot, right? I mean, that's about as cheap as you can get. And they took that pilot out and tested it and it tested as high as Oprah tested back in the day, right? A, B, C got wind of this and said, forget syndication, we'll put you on the air now. And three months later, Maddy and I hit the ground running, not knowing each other really. And what began a two year, 535 episode run with someone I got to know every day. We shot literally every, well, five days a week, Monday through Friday.Michael Jamin:So that's interesting.Michael Burger:We got to know each other. Got to learn the whole thing.Michael Jamin:I didn't know that was the origin of, because they're basically saying, okay, we're selling a morning TV show. We don't know who's in it yet, but if you like the idea of a morning TV show, we're going to audition this.Michael Burger:Back in the day, they were handing out these, they were handing these talk shows out pretty regularly. It was kind of the thing fairly inexpensive to produce, I guess. Although we had quite a budget. This was Morning Network. This was a big official show that we traveled and there was a nice budget for a big beautiful set. And everybody got what they needed to pull this off. And then celebrities would catch on and come on. And we had our favorites. And you got to sit down there with your idols. And yeah, there was a little pushback. The fact, I want to talk to you about this, because A, B, C was adamant that this show was not a comedy show in the morning. That you're taking people's time away from them and you got to give them something. They got to feel they haven't wasted their morning. So there's always a recipe, there's always something to learn from. And I came in kind of hot with this idea of comedy and they're going, no, people don't want to laugh in the morning. And I went, well, I got to disagree with you there, but Max Mutchnick and Max and who? Max and Dave, right?Michael Jamin:David Colleen, yeah.Michael Burger:Who created a little show calledMichael Jamin:Will and Grace.Michael Burger:So they were the first writers on Mike and Mad. And it was just overkill. We didn't need that much horsepower from them. They were so talented. They went on and did what they did. But I think because they brought me on, they certainly liked my sense of humor and thought this would be a nice way to wake up in the morning. So eventually they embraced the humor as long as he balanced it with information.Michael Jamin:And that show, it was Tamara Raw, Tamara, she was the producerMichael Burger:Started it.Michael Jamin:She started it. And I guess her vision was Letterman in the morning. But Letterman had a show in the morning. And so that's whereMichael Burger:You don't want to go down that path. And that kind of scared so, and part of this was wise that you, let's not waste people's time in the morning. Let's find that balance of being entertaining and give them a takeaway. And we realized that, I certainly found that balance. Maddie and I started to feel our own beats there on where we could jump in and we each got our own segments where we could shine. Yeah. Maddie was the greatest at locking in on a guest. And Carol Burnett came on and Maddie just started crying. That was, that's how she started the interview. It's because Maddie learned English having come from Cuba on one of the last Freedom Flights out. And now the show that she watched to learn English by the Carol Burnett Show. She's sitting there and she starts crying. Well, that's a great host showing her emotion, being interested. So yeah, I love working withMichael Jamin:Her. Yeah, she's delightful. Yeah, I remember, I remember taking, going to your dressing room with index cards versus jokes here, what about this?Michael Burger:And I wanted that so much to me that felt like Letterman and that felt like The Tonight Show. I was aching for that. I don't remember the conversation we had or what I fought for. I wanted Jonathan Winters on the show, and I had done warmup on his sitcom and they said, no, that's not our audience. And I went, what's not our audience? Funny. So I pushed, six months later, Jonathan came on and I got to sit with him and I got to do what Johnny Carson did with him, which was give him a hat and then do a character. And I thought, this is, I'm in heaven.Michael Jamin:ThisMichael Burger:Is as good as it gets. But it took some pushing because they thought, who wants Johnny in the morning? Yeah. So wait a minute.Michael Jamin:WhoMichael Burger:Doesn't want to laugh in the morningMichael Jamin:And be, but before that, you were still also doing warm before warm up. And then how did, so just so people know, so when you shoot a multi-camera sitcom, the audience, they bring in an audience and it could take, I dunno, it could easily take five hours to shoot a half hour of television.Michael Burger:22, 2 minutes, five and a half. Five hours to shoot 22.Michael Jamin:And so what's the audience doing while they're resetting the scenes or the actors are changing?Michael Burger:Well, I've got a lot of stories. Some had a guy die once. What? And I just thought he was taking a nap. Yeah. I kept looking up going, God, I, a comic wants everybodyMichael Jamin:Engaged.Michael Burger:And he's just, and at the end, he's not leaving every, the bus is gone and they car him out and he died on the way to the hospital. I guess they revived him, then he died. WhatMichael Jamin:Show was this?Michael Burger:Women in Prison?Michael Jamin:I don't remember. Don't remember. Women in Prison. Sure,Michael Burger:Sure you do. It was a sitcom with Wendy, Joe Sperber and Peggy Cass, an all star lineup. Blake Clark played the Warden and it was a sitcom about women in prison. I know. And I was the warmup. And then I did all of those types of sit. I mean, I did big ones, I did shows, you'd know. Yeah. Gosh, Mr. Belvedere is where I started.Michael Jamin:Remember one. AndMichael Burger:That's really where you learn, I don't know a comic that's got five hours, unless you're talking maybe Leno, but you know, do your act. But then you have to figure something else out. And that's where these hosting chops came in and yeah, you're like a surgeon on call. The moment the bell stops, then I start talking to the audience and then they're ready to go again. Could be right in the middle of a joke, you're telling, it doesn't matter, I'm here to serve. And they would do, again, for those uninitiated, maybe 15 scenes in a sitcom of 50 pages, 60 pages. They'll do each scene two or three or four times. The actors want another shot at the scene. Maybe they've got another joke laid in, or maybe they want another angle. And each time they do it, that audience has to be geared up, not only reminded, Hey, where were we? Right. And sometimes literally reminded because a lens went down and we have a 30 minute stop between scenes seven and eight. Yeah, that's happened. So you keep them entertained. And it's actually, I think that was the greatest training for me anyway.Michael Jamin:It must've actually a really important job because as a TV writer, we want the audience to have, they need the energy. They got to keep giving it to the audience. And it's the warmups job to keep them engaged and not wanting to leave and get bored and zoned out. Well, I'mMichael Burger:Glad you said that becauseMichael Jamin:Oh, very important.Michael Burger:The writers will come to me and say, how's the audience tonight? Or if the show's not going well, they'll going, Hey, can't you do anything your fault? I'll certainly try sometimes it just wasn't that funny. Or the reverse is true. Right. I have a Dick Van Dyke story that is painful. He did a sitcom with his son called Van Dyken Company. And Walter Barnett produced and they brought me in. I had a nice reputation of being the warmup guy. So I came in and did the pilot and it's like taking candy from baby, I'm killing. And Walter Barnett walks up to the rail about three feet up audience, and without stopping, he says, just pull it back a little bit and then keeps walking. And a couple scenes later, more laughs, he goes Less. Just less. Okay. Now we're like five seeds in. And he pulls me up and he goes, stop telling jokes.I'll tell you why. Later. I went, oh my God. So now I'm just talking to the audience and I happen to get one guy in the audience that was a mortician. I go, what do you do for a living? Mortician big laugh. He looks at me, what are you doing? People are dying to get in. I go, well, it's not, he's doing it. At the end of the show. He goes, I got to let you go. Dick is not happy. Dick, Dick van Dyke's not happy. Yeah. Yeah. Show's just not coming together. He had hoped, and there's a lot of laughter when we're not shooting, so I'll keep you posted. So the next week they bring somebody else in and it's awful. So they bring me back. But he said, okay, you can come back, but you can't do the puppet bit and you can't do these three jokes. I had some killer bits that I know I could rely on. So I finished the six episodes I did when I did five of them. ButMichael Jamin:It, it's, it's actually, warmup is a pretty high paying job. It's a pretty desirable job.Michael Burger:It was crazy. I'd never seen that kind of money for one night. I'm not doing the clubs. I'm not on tour, and I'm not only in town. I'm getting union money. So now I'm getting my sag guard and I, but that's a union job. Then they tried try to take it away from usMichael Jamin:That that's a union. That's a union chop. IMichael Burger:Didn't know that. It was after I fought for it, it was then a bunch of us got together and went to the union and said, Hey, we're a pretty important part of this production. They agreed, actors stood up for us and spoke on our behalf, and we wound up getting union money, which is how I got vested. But I mean, don't think I'm speaking out of school. Warmups could range. Back in the day was 800 for the night and five or 6,000 a night was not uncommon at the end. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I know that for sure. And then,Michael Burger:So you knock out a couple of those a week and all of a sudden you're going, IMichael Jamin:I'm rich ShowMichael Burger:Business. Well, show business is great, but you're also not on camera. And you're thinking, I remember having shows on the air and then going back and doing warmup and candidly thinking kind of a step back. And a producer said to me, I wouldn't look at it that way. He said, do you like doing it? And I said, I love doing it. He goes, you're good at it. I said, well, okay. And he said, that carries a lot of weight. If people are going to see you work 'em, see you doing what you do. Well. And I kind of reframed that and got back into the warmup and wound up doing a little show with people that you probably, or one actress that was probably everyone's favorite or has been. And that was Betty White. Yeah, sure. And I came back and did Hot in Cleveland and did 135 episodes. I spent 135 Friday nights with Betty White.Michael Jamin:Yeah, she's lovely. Yeah. I worked with her on an animated show. She couldn't be, she was so lovely.Michael Burger:Sweet. Right? Yeah. And gives you everything you'd hope.Michael Jamin:Oh, for such a pro. I remember I've told this story, I was doing an animated show. So I was directing her and she was, I don't know, maybe 15 feet in front of me. I'm at a table, I got my script. I'm giving her notes and she's delivering. She's great. But after a take, I'd give her a note, can you try like this? Like that? And she was very pleasant. But after a few sec or a minutes, she stops and she goes, I'm sorry, dear, but you're going to have to yell. My hearing isn't as good as it used to be. And I said, if you think I'm yelling at Betty White, you're out of your fucking mind. And she just lost it. She loved that. She was so far, I mean, she's like, she was so sweet whenMichael Burger:You would see her on the set, the room changed. Everybody was aware. It was like the Pope walked in and the little ad libs that she would throw off to the side, which having done 135 of 'em, I realized she had a lot to go to. But the first time I heard a couple of these, for instance, cameras rolling, awkward pause. Betty looks up and goes, if no one's saying anything, it's probably my turn. Yeah, that kills. Director goes, we have to go back. Betty goes, how far the pilot? So she got about 50 of these ready to go. And there was a scene where they, once a season, they would pair the girls up, Wendy Mallick, Jane leaves, Valerie Tonelli. They're all single as Betty was. So they would have a date show where all the women got paired up and the girls paired each other up with dates. So they picked Carl Reiner as Betty's love interest. And there's a scene where she and Carl KissAnd crowd goes Nuts. And then we stop. And Carl's 15 feet from me. And I had worked, interviewed Carl on Mike and Maddie. In fact, I, Carl, I let had him cut my tie, which is an old Johnny Carson thing I'll get back to in a minute. But I said, Hey Carl, you just kissed Betty. What was that like? And he goes, without missing a beat. Oh, it was unbelievable. She has her original teeth and all and her, she goes all of her own teeth and her original tongue recess. That right at 90 without missing a beat. And you saw these two connecting, right? As the old guards of the business,Michael Jamin:Some legends. But how did you get that first warmup job? I mean, walking into that is not, is hard.Michael Burger:It was. Or even gettingMichael Jamin:The opportunity to do it as hard.Michael Burger:Yeah, I go back to the cruise ship. I was doing warmup on the ship and a producer for Jeopardy was on who worked for Merck Griffin, and they were doing this dance show. And she goes, can you get me a tape? Then by that time I had, and so the very first warmup I did was Dance Fever. And one of the celebrity judges, it was Christopher Hewitt, who said to me on a break, oh dear Ladd, you should come do our show. And I did, did that show for seven years.Michael Jamin:Wow.Michael Burger:And then that kind of mushroomed into other warmupsMichael Jamin:Because you've had a really unconventional path into Hollywood, I would think.Michael Burger:Yeah, yeah. But my sights were set early on. I saw that Carson did a game show and then a talk show. And I went, well, that works for me. So lemme see if I can get a game show. Let's see if I can get a talk show. And I've accomplished those. IMichael Jamin:Certainly, but you were never a weatherman.Michael Burger:No, I never, I never, what happened? Do I look the part,Michael Jamin:Was that a slam? It's a quietMichael Burger:Slam.Michael Jamin:Letterman was a Well, weather. He was, yeah. I mean, seems like that's another, as long as you're in front of the camera, I'd think. Well,Michael Burger:In the LA market, you couldn't get past Fritz Coleman.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Michael Burger:Right. Did that for 40 years who also did standup. And I never wanted to do that. And the opportunity to act had come up a number of times. And with all humility, I just said, no, I don't think I would be good enough. I knew what I liked. I knew I liked talking to people, basically.Michael Jamin:But you've done some actingMichael Burger:And I figured I'd just stay in my lane.Michael Jamin:But you've done acting. I know you have, in an episode that I wrote, you're an episode, episode of Lowes and Clark.Michael Burger:Yeah. I don't, that's not on the resume. I just don't, those got handed to you because you were on the air doing something else. Right. I got to present at the Emmy's because we were on the air, and Maddy and I handed Oprah, her Emmy award, and we're going down the elevator with Oprah, and she's singing our theme song. And turns out she was a fan of the show, kind of, yeah. Was our godmother. Because when Mike and Maddie went across the country, we aired in Chicago after her. So she was on at nine, we were on at 10:00 AM and we were an instant hit because we followed Oprah. And so much so that Oprah became a fan of the show and invited us to everything. I went to the Oscars with Oprah. I sat at dinner at Spago with Oprah. I mean, she, now, were there any call guests? No, she does not call now.Michael Jamin:Were there any, because you had a lot of great guests on Mike and Matt there. Anything that you in touch with that you kind of became friends with?Michael Burger:Yeah, George Hamilton, Robert Wagner. Robert Wagner is about as cool as anybody gets. Yeah. And he asked me to mc the charity event that he was doing. It was a Jimmy Stewart Relay race. It was a celebrity race in Griffith Park. I said, I'd be happy to. And he goes, do you want to play golf? And I went, well, I don't. I can play hack around, but he's like a member at Bel Air. And I said, well, yeah, maybe that would be nice. And I'm just pushing him off. I didn't want to embarrass myself. So the next year I do the event again. And he goes, are you still playing golf? And I went, yeah. And he goes, are we going to play? And I went, he goes, do I have to send a car for you? And I went, no. RJ is what he wanted to be called. I said, I just didn't feel like I could play right when I first met him, this is So Robert Wagner, I, I'm standing there with a buddy of mine and I see him coming, and we have to go to the stage and he comes up and he takes his arm and he puts it through mine and goes, Michael, walk with me. I mean, so old school, right, Michael?Michael Jamin:Right,Michael Burger:Gloria, my friend. I'm good. Thank you. Rj. Yeah. They were idols. I got a chance to meet. God, I met President Carter, had retired, but I got to do Habitat humanity with him and sit down and build a house and talk to him about life. And every musician you ever heard of. How about the artist? Jewel made her first appearance on Mike and Mad. We put her on there. I did notMichael Jamin:Know that. I remember James Brown. I remember walking past James Brown.Michael Burger:James the Sure. Leanne Rime made her first appearance with us.Michael Jamin:Really? Well, I mean, I wasn't there for that, or I don't know. Yeah. That's so funny. Wow. So that's amazing.Michael Burger:Yeah. James Brown do. So you were there for James?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Burger:And he sat down and he said something, and that wound up on entertainment tonight. That night he said, the music is funded by drug money.Michael Jamin:EverybodyMichael Burger:Went, did he just say that? And all of a sudden, now we're hard news reporters. We felt like, I don't know. I don't Charlie Rose or something. We got a scoop.Michael Jamin:I don't remember that. WeMichael Burger:Just stumbledMichael Jamin:Into it. And then what was it like? Just rolling? I mean, I know you had must have talking points on when you're interviewing guests, butMichael Burger:Oh boy, you, you're so right. A celebrity gets interviewed the night before, and then they have bullet points. And the next day you kind of spit out those questions so they could comment on what they were pre-interviewed about. But in conversation, sometimes things go another way. But as you know, the producer's job is to keep you the host on track. And we had God bless her, Kathy Paulino, Kathy, I think her name was.Michael Jamin:Yes. Yes. Is that her name?Michael Burger:IMichael Jamin:Don't remember. I Kathy interview. Yeah.Michael Burger:She, I interviewed Robert Gole the night before, and she had this list of questions, and she's just behind camera with this, and she's doing this, and I see her, and I'm ignoring her because something better is happening. And we get to the, and she goes, Michael, you did not ask any of those questions. What happened? What's wrong? And I said, did you hear what Robert Gullet was saying? She goes, no. Well, I said, the interview took a path down a different road. He had mentioned his father, and I noticed he'd paused almost if he was going to tear up. And I thought, there's something more to explore there. And I said, what about your dad? And he said, on his deathbed, his dad said, Robert, come here. And Robert comes in, and he goes, son, you're meant to sing. Go do that. Well, I mean, I got chill.I got tills hearing that. Now, that was not on the cards. It was following the arc of a conversation. And sometimes these producers feel, maybe they're not doing their job. We didn't ask those questions, but interviewing people is really about a conversation. So we had those moments where we went off the card and I think made some friends there, had some great, some great interviews. I'm very proud of. Patty LaBelle sat down with us and admitted that her three sisters had all died of cancer. And she wasn't sure she was going to see 50. And she starts to tear up and we're going, she goes, I must like you guys, we're six minutes in. Yeah. Talk shows. You get six minutes, seven minutes, maybe two segments, maybe 15 minutes. And I think we did some nice work and met some people in a very finite amount of time.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljammin.com/watchlist.I remember those morning meetings. We talk about the show, and I remember sitting in the back, because I'm young, it's my first real writing job, and they call me a producer because that way they wouldn't have to pay me writer's skill. So they said, you're a producer. But I'm like, I'm not a producer. I can write stuff. But I remember thinking, how does everyone here know what to do? I really had no idea was I was in awe of the whole thing. How does everyone here know what to do?Michael Burger:But as the more you hung around, it kind of demystifies itself after a while, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. But there was also, and to some degree, yes, but it was also like you only get one shot. It wasn't like you get to rehearse. It was like, you better get this right. We're on live tv. We're not live, but we're on TV and live detect. Yeah. We're not doing again. We're not doing it again. SoMichael Burger:Yeah, that was, if you concentrated on that, it would paralyze you. What I found starting to do this was that how in the world can we talk to somebody for six minutes and get anything out of it that seems too short? Yes. And you learn to ask. There's a great quote by Blaze Pascal, he's a French philosopher, and the quote is, if I had more time, I would've written a shorter letter.Michael Jamin:Right?Michael Burger:And it talks about the science of the art of being brief. Then you learn that in the talk show world where you need to be concise and you take away all the stuff in the same way. Jerry Seinfeld would take out a word that doesn't work in a joke. A good interview is become very, there's no Sophie's choice there. You know, start cutting things away, not going to make it. And you stick with what works at that moment. So you be, become careful, you be good editors of yourself as you interview. But I found how it was so, it was so phe and so I compared it to cotton candy. You would do it, and it was gone. And then the next day we had to do it all over again. Yes.Michael Jamin:Right, right. Yeah.Michael Burger:The sheer volume Yes. Of cranking out an hour a day for two years was mind boggling to me. But yeah, I didn't have to do it myself. I had help.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And IMichael Burger:Had to show up refreshed,Michael Jamin:The minute recorded. I remember thinking all the producers, well, you're screwed. You got to do this. You're done. All that work you did is over now, and you have to do more. I mean, yeah, it doesn't end.Michael Burger:And we went live to tape. We wouldn't stop unless there was something drastic happening. And once in a while, we would tape two shows on a Thursday so we could travel on a Friday to go to another town and maybe do something live there. Unlike the show I did with Christina Ferrari, which was two hour, two hours live a day there. There's no stopping. I mean, what goes wrong? You see? Which was a whole nother level of fun because,Michael Jamin:But there's aMichael Burger:Too late,Michael Jamin:There's an art though, to getting people to be vulnerable. Like you're saying on television right now, you have six minutes, and then sometimes you'll see it where an interviewer, just like they're reading the questions, they're just waiting to get the next question. They're not really in it.Michael Burger:True. Were you there for Charlie Shaneen?Michael Jamin:I probably would'veMichael Burger:Remembered. Charlie comes on and he's nervous, and he's sitting there and he's looking around. I go, what's wrong, Charlie? Because I don't know, no one's given me anything to say. So what do you need? A cup of coffee would be nice. So I went over, we had a big set. We had a working kitchen. So I got him a cup of coffee, and we sat down and go, anything else? He goes, well, cream would be nice. I went back and got him.Michael Jamin:Great.Michael Burger:That was such a fun interview because he really was authentic and he really was nervous. And we just played it where you had some other guests that were, shall we say, just a little more controlled and didn't want to open up. And they were there to promote something. That's what a talk show does, is we promote you doing whatever you're doing.Michael Jamin:And what were you thinking when you're like, oh, I'm just tanking here. This isMichael Burger:Going with No, the opposite. Oh no, I'm thinking, let's do more of this now. I felt, oh, now we're doing Letterman. Now we're doing a talk show where things are off the rails and there's nothing, and the big camera has to whip out of the way. No one had planned that. I lived those moments where something went wrong, butMichael Jamin:When someone wasn't comfortable on care. What about that? Well, whereMichael Burger:It wasn't scripted, heavily scripted, where you would get something that wasn't planned. No, that'sMichael Jamin:Fine. I mean, when a guest is clearly not engaging, they're just, they're struggling.Michael Burger:Well, you'd see the producer going, let's jump ahead. JumpMichael Jamin:Ahead to, what do IMichael Burger:Jump to? Well, we could tighten it up and then the next guest can go longer. We had a little bit of an accordion, you know, find a way a to get in there somehow, some way. But they're not all, some are better talk show guests than others.Michael Jamin:AndMichael Burger:Some come in, we had, comedians had Richard Jenny on who I went to his dressing room and I go, what do you need? And he gave me five setups, hotdog, car, couch, whatever it was. So he knew all the jokes he'd go to when you just laid 'em in there.Michael Jamin:Would you write those down or on a card, or you just No,Michael Burger:That kind of stuff was just, yeah, they certainly had 'em on a card. But when we got a comic on, I really felt, oh my God, I got to kick up my game here because this is really what I want to be. I mean, this is, I idolize you, you men and women that had come on.Michael Jamin:There really is. SoMichael Burger:Carl Reiner comes on, and there's a very famous episode of The Tonight Show where Carl Reiner comes on and says to Johnny, I never make the best of the Tonight Show. I never make it. And he goes, I, I'd like to be part of those eclipse at the end of the year. And cars going like, okay. And he goes, you're a great dresser. Johnny goes, oh, thank you. And he goes, stand up if you don't mind. And he goes, okay. So Carson's standing up and he's looking at his tie, and he goes, the tie's not right, however, and he pulls out a pair of scissors and he cuts off Johnny's tie. Right. Johnny didn't know it. Fred Decoda had said to Johnny, Hey, just don't wear your best clothes tonight. That's all I'm missing. SayMichael Jamin:God.Michael Burger:So he cuts the tie rightAt the end of our interview with Carl, I said, Hey, there's a moment you had with Carson and I would just be thrilled if we could recreate this. And he doesn't know where I'm, he doesn't know where I'm going with this. I said, there was a moment where you cut Johnny's tie. And he goes, yes, I remember that. And I said, can I? And he goes, oh, no, no, no. My wife gave me. And I went, no, no, I don't want to cut your tie. Right. Would you cut my, he goes, I'd love to cut your tie. And he stands up and makes a production and cuts my tie. Right. And I have that tie cut with an autograph framed in my office. Wow. Wow. It was my moment of, I mean, those are the big moments, right. Meeting your idols. Yeah. Like Jonathan Winters, I assume people listening know Johnny. Remember Johnny the greatest improv artist ever? And Robin Williams was a fan of his. Yep. So I get to do warmup on a sitcom called Davis Rules. Remember that? With Bonnie Hunt? No. Yeah. How do he won an Emmy for that? Okay. Jonathan Winters did. So Jonathan Winters, Bonnie Hunt, the kid Giovanni.Michael Jamin:Yep. Wow.Michael Burger:So they would have a script, John enters kitchen.dot pop on couch because he, yeah. Whatcha going to do with this maniac? So he would start, he'd go off roars of laughter, but he, Jonathan loved audience. So he comes up to me, maybe we're a half hour in, I'd never met Jonathan Winters. And he walks by the rail and without stopping, says to me, Bing, how's your golf swing? And he keeps going. And as he's about eight feet away, I go, Bing, how's your golf swing? And he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa. And he does Bing Crosby. Well, at the end of the show, I go up and say, Hey, I can't believe you're even here, and I can't believe I got to meet you. And he goes, Hey. He goes, that was fun. He goes, I love doing that kind of stuff. He goes, anytime you want to throw me something, let's do it.So this is taking a pitch from Kershaw. This is the best of the best, the best. So the next week it's a sitcom, the format, it's going to be a four hour night, it's going to be stops and starts. And Jonathan is just sitting there like a little kid waiting to play. He does it, the acting he can do in his sleep, but it's the improv that he loves. So I'd catch his eye and go, excuse me. Yeah. Did you not invent lettuce? Is that you? Yes. I invented lettuce. God, for 10 minutes. That happened for a year and a half. So I got to play with him for, I don't know what it was, 52 episodes.Michael Jamin:Wow.Michael Burger:That's meeting your idols and being even more impressed than you could possibly imagine.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But how gracious of him, I mean, that's veryMichael Burger:Much fun. But that's him, him, he loved the audience. And Bonnie Hunt was so great at navigating him back to the script without even seeing it. But the show was funniest when it was off the rails because Jonathan Giovanni eei, the actor would look at him and he had a line, and then there'd be this pause and they'd going, Giovanni, that's your line. He goes, where? What's my line? Because it's so far past what was written in the script. What'sMichael Jamin:My line?Michael Burger:Yeah. Because Johnny had taken it out to the parking lot and then made a left down Ventura. Yeah.Michael Jamin:That's so funny. SoMichael Burger:Those warmup days I loved. And when I got out of it and then got a chance to come back into it, my ego aside that I'm not on the camera, I'm behind it. Well,Michael Jamin:Let's talk. I end up working that though. I mean about that must have been difficult for you, but I don't know. You did it anyway.Michael Burger:Well, it, yeah, it took about 10 minutes to get over myself, and then I'm standing in front of an audience, getting a laugh, and I went, wow, this is pretty cool. Right.Michael Jamin:But did it, I mean, that'sMichael Burger:Felt right back in the mix. That'sMichael Jamin:The Hollywood rollercoaster. I mean, you're up, you're down. You're up and down. I mean,Michael Burger:Yeah, I naively thought one pilot, I'm on my way. I've got a TV show. That very first thing I did for N B C didn't get picked up. And I went, oh, that, that's show bz. Yeah. I, that's the up and low. That's you thought. Right. So you learn to discipline yourself and be grateful for what comes your way, which I think I've done. And I also wound up with some side hustles along the way, flipping homes. And I got my real estate license and did that stuff on the side. Right. Not thinking I'd ever want to, boy, here's something revealing.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Michael Burger:It's probably five years ago, Catholic church. Sunday morning, I'm sitting there and there's a woman in front of me with her husband. The husband looked like he had been beaten down. What's the old joke? Where they've taken the spine out? He's just been beaten so many years by being to this woman. She's eight o'clock black dress Pearls, Mrs. Kravitz from Bewi. Does that help you? This is who I'm dealing with and looking around. And she owns the room and it's church. So the priest says, halfway through, turn to the person next to you or behind you and say, peace be with you. So I'm right behind her. So she turns and goes, what happened to you? And turns around, excuse me, what happened to you? Yeah. You used to be on tv, turn around. This is mess. Listen to Padre there. She couldn't fathom the fact that I wasn't on the air and wanted to know how my life not seeing me on Mike and Maddie anymore. And I said, no, I, I'm, I'm fine. Okay. Things are good. Just turn around. But she needed, I didn't have the time to deep dive into the complexities and the ups and downs of this business inMichael Jamin:Church. But did it hurt though when she said that?Michael Burger:No, I actually thought it was wildly funny because I've told this story now for 20 years or five years. Yeah. But yeah, no, I loved being on the air and certainly miss it. The skillset set is still there. I think it's gotten better. You learn, hosting is cumulative. Everything you do adds one more layer. But I've certainly made peace with it and understand the business that, I mean, I've got a wonderful life because of all the ups and downs. Right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. One of the things that people say to me, because I post a lot on social media, and they go, well, you seem so humble. I'm like, because I've been in the business for 25 years. That's why, I mean, do you not, you're every step of the way you're getting humbled. IMichael Burger:Mean, how about, is there any bitterness in your journey?Michael Jamin:Not really, because I never really thought I was going to get this far.Michael Burger:Oh, that's interesting.Michael Jamin:I thought it was never my goal to my, it never my goal to have my own show and my own Norman Lee Empire. I just wanted to be as aMichael Burger:Writer, showrunner producer, you mean?Michael Jamin:Yeah. No, I just wanted to write on TV show. I wanted to write on cheers, to be honest. AndMichael Burger:OhMichael Jamin:Wow. But when I broke into the business, cheers. It was already well done. But I wound up writing with many writers from who wrote on Cheers. And I wound up shooting a show that was shot on the cheer sound stage. And so in my mind, I made it like it. But certainly,Michael Burger:Well, what demons do you have as a writer? Or what holds you back as a writer, whether you're working or not, and is it amplified when you're not working?Michael Jamin:It's easy to look at other people. Here's what it is. I had a friend I was writing on King of the Hill and one of the other writers signed a big deal or something, and I was very jealous. And my brother friend, he was older on King of the Hill, and he said, he gave me a great piece of advice. He said, there will always be someone younger than you, less talented than you, making more money than you. Oh. I go, well, there it is. That, there it is. And that really, I hung onto that for a long time. I feel like. Okay, so it's easy to compare your career to somebody else, but to honest. I'm so far, I'm so lucky that I have what I have. So I'm not bitter at, because youMichael Burger:Got this far, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. But it hasn't taken away the desire to do this again and work more, or be where someone else is at this moment?Michael Jamin:No, I'm happy. As long as I get to keep working, I'm happy. I really am. Yeah, and it's really, it's funny when you're talking about doing warmup for these multi-camera shows, there are no multi-camera shows anymore. It's true. If you wanted that job today, good luck getting it. There are no shows. So how do you get that?Michael Burger:Good luck in a couple of ways. I have a friend of mine, you probably know Ron Pearson.Michael Jamin:Yeah, Ron, what about him? Ron'sMichael Burger:One of the best out there, hands down, a great comic and a great warmup. But he said the stuff he was doing 3, 4, 5 years ago in front of an audience, he couldn't do nowMichael Jamin:ReallyMichael Burger:The sensitivities of what you can and cannot say. BecauseMichael Jamin:He was prettyMichael Burger:In front of a crowd.Michael Jamin:He was pretty wholesome. I remember I worked with him.Michael Burger:Very wholesome. It's just some things you can't say. I got another buddy of mine, Ross Schaeffer, who was a corporate keynote speaker who says, even in the corporate world, there's some things you can't say. There was some reference to women speak more than men on a daily basis. They, there's more of verbose. Right. Because I was told by the person hiring me, well, I wouldn't say that he was using it as a way women really control the marketplace. A woman will decide what you're ultimately going to buy that flat screen TV you got in your house. Yeah. You got that because your wife said it's okay. Right. But that's actually sensitive to say now.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Michael Burger:Well, didn't even occur to me.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Michael Burger:Here's what some show is up for me. And this happened here in Long Beach, a great little restaurant in Belmont Shore on Thursday nights. They had a jazz piano player. It's this little French cafe and then go in for a bite to eat, and this guy's playing in the corner and there's maybe in a restaurant that seats 80, there's probably seven. And he would play and it'd be nothing. So I'd give him a little something, something, right. We're all performers and you're feeling for this guy, and I know when a song ends. So I gave him a little more and he takes this break and he comes over and sits next to me and he goes, Hey, thanks for trying to make that happen. I said, of course. He said, buy you a drink. Sure. And we get to talk and he goes, lemme tell you my favorite story about supporting another actor or performer. He goes, I'm working a club down in LA and it's the same thing. Nobody's there. It's quiet. And I finish, I don't know, I'm 30, 40 minutes in and I finish a song and I hear, and he looks up to finally thank this one person that's acknowledging his talent. And it was a woman taking a cigarette out of a pack.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. Oh myMichael Burger:God. Try to get the the tobacco into the filter. Yeah. He goes, boy, that if that isn't showbiz rightMichael Jamin:There. Yeah. That is Show biz, just what youMichael Burger:Think. You made it at any level, you're going to get humbled one moreMichael Jamin:Time. Time you're going to get humbled. Right.Michael Burger:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a humility is a great trait anyway, I think. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Michael Burger:As an interviewer, as a host, as anything, anybody in the business, gratitude and humility will serve you a long way, I think. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah. You got to enjoy the ride. And I was told that over and over, enjoy the ride. I didn't really quite what it meant. Yeah. But then whenMichael Burger:We did Match game, match game 98, and we shot at CCB ss, we shot on the same set that they do. The price is right. They just turned it around for us. And I would go in early and I'd leave late and I'd drive in and I'd see that c b s sign lit up and I said, I don't want to leave, and I know this is going to be over. I know it's over because we're airing against Oprah at 3:00 PM on C B Ss. That's why I know it's over. And we did our 135 and it went away. But I never for a moment, took that for granted. I loved every second of that knowing, Hey, you know what? You could worry about it being over, but ultimately, hey, like you said, just enjoy this ride. I had my best friend did the warmup on it. It was the announcer in the warmup, and we laughed ourselves silly, and we shot seven a day. Game shows you shoot a bunch. So we would shoot four, take a lunch break and do three, did 135 episodes.Michael Jamin:Have you seen that movie Babylon yet with Brad Pitt?Michael Burger:I couldn't get through it.Michael Jamin:Oh really? OhMichael Burger:Yeah, about 20 minutes down. I went, yeah, no.Michael Jamin:Oh, you might want to revisit it. I love it. Oh yeah, it was about that. It was about knowing when your time is over and it was so, it was so crushing. I thought it was beautiful. But yeah, I could see, yeah, you need to stick with it a little bit, but I love that.Michael Burger:Where do you think you are in the arc of your career?Michael Jamin:I think, well, I mean, think all of us. I think you hit a certain age in Hollywood, and if I haven't already approached it, I'm getting very close.Michael Burger:It's funny, when you leave your demo, you have a birthday and you leave your demo.Michael Jamin:There was an article, this is a couple, this is many years ago, probably 10 or 15 years ago, and I was my partner and we were taking over for a show. We're running a show. It was Michael Eisner's show, and there's an article in the trades and in a variety, whatever, and it said veteran TV writers, Michael Jamon, Steve Clare, and it was an article about us. And then I go, wow, I become a veteran. And then, oh wow. One of the writers sitting next to me, he goes, that's not a good sign. It means your career's coming toMichael Burger:An edge. Yeah. Veteran was not a compliment. He'sMichael Jamin:Not a compliment.Michael Burger:I remember sitting, I had just turned 40 and I was sitting in an office with an executive at Tele Pictures, I believe it was, and I was sitting there with my agent, Richard Lawrence, who has since retired. I've outlasted my agent. That's not good. And this woman who's in charge of production says, look, Michael, I know who you are and we're fans, but here's the thing. Oh boy. She goes, we're going to hire the person that looks like the person we want watching us. Yeah. I went, well, okay, that can be a lot of things, but I can't be an 18 year old woman. Right. Yeah. Whatever the demo was, they were searching. So that stuck with me that there are things, there are times things you just can't change. I fit a certain demo and a seasoned host would be the category. And if that comes back then great. There's a show coming up this fall where they're bringing back the Bachelor, but it's called the Golden Bachelor. Have you heard about this? No. So it's the Bachelor produced by the same people, but it's for 60 and up. So the contestants will be 60 and up,Michael Jamin:Right.Michael Burger:Called the Golden Bachelor. Right Now the thought is, well, maybe people will value a more seasoned looking picture there, and maybe the host will come along with that. I don't know.Michael Jamin:So what do you know? Probably not. It's going to be hosted by a 20 year old.Michael Burger:It's going to, no, it's going to be hosted by the same guy that's doing the younger version. So I think they're getting it both ways. Right. They're going to get a younger host and an older demo. That's fine. You know, Saja stepping down with Wheel of Fortune that there's a lot of talk about who might slip in there. And that ranges from his daughter. Pat Sajak has a daughter that could certainly do it. Vanna could do it. Ryan Seacrest is, there's talk. Yeah, Whoopi said she wants it. Oh wow. Tom Bergson's name has been tossed around. Right. Mine's been tossed around, but it's tossing it. I'm tossing the name around.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Hey, what about this guy?Michael Burger:I did Wheel of Fortune in Vegas. Harry Friedman, who produced it, right, came up with a live version of Wheel of Fortune. So back in 2000, we went to the M G M, they took over the lounge, which used to be Catch a Rising Star renamed at the Wheel of Fortune lounge, and you got a chance to come in. Oh wow. And play Wheel of Fortune and win prizes. Catch and prizes. So it was just like the TV show, but it was not airing, but it was live. Right. What made the show so fun is that unlike the TV show where you're screened for intelligence and the ability to play the game, this is a bingo ball that's pulled, and now you're on stage. So we have three contestants that could be, well, you name it. In this case, it was a woman who'd had a little bit, a guy who didn't speak the language, and it was as wild and as funny as you'd hoped it would be, because they didn't understand the concept and the letters, and some did didn't. We had this poor gal had the puzzle almost revealed, and the answer was cassette deck. And every letter was turned. Everything was revealed except the C. And she's staring at it and she goes a set deck. And the woman next to her goes cassette deck, you idiot turned her.Which you'd never see on tv, right?Michael Jamin:No.Michael Burger:Oh my God. Gosh, that was fun. We did a half a year of that right now. We did three shows a day for six months.Michael Jamin:And so it's the, it's interesting. Yeah. So it's about, I don't know. Ye

On the first episode of Just Jack & Will, Sean & Eric review the Will & Grace pilot, finding lots to love and some hairstyles to regret. They talk about the sharp writing, the vivid sets, the little details that can indicate a character's backstory, and wonder how on earth anyone could have missed that Will is gay. Then, they welcome co-creator Max Mutchnick as their very first guest, who tells us about everything from the original show pitch to casting to the theme song. Shalom, our lonesome prairie dogs.Have a question about Will & Grace, especially Season 1? We want to hear them! Email us at JustJackAndWill@gmail.com, call or text to 818-308-4012, maybe the gentlemen will answer your question on the show!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

We have on the incredibly talented writer, producer, tv show creator - David Kohan. We talk about his brilliant family, how he caused Nick Cage to quit High School, how his career started and lots of great stuff about Will and Grace (including how the characters came about). Look for more new tv shows from David and his creative partner Max Mutchnick (another Beverly alum) after this writers strike ends. Until then keep watching Will and Grace, but I probably didn't have to prompt you to do that.Send this episode to two friends and help us keep the show going!!To support David, think of him when you think of Real Estate (and podcasts):www.DavidPassHomes.comSend Stacy some love on Facebook and Instagram@stacy_rubinowitz Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Will & Grace was the brainchild of the shows co-creators Max Mutchnick and David Kohan who looked to develop a show around the real life friendship of Mutchnick and Janet Eisenberg which had been a bond sonce childhood. The two dated for a while but the romantic chemistry was bever there. Come to find out Max was gay. And after Janet's initial shock from the news the two ended up forming a tight bond as friends because the teo truly did love one another. After some adjustments this premise was adaptef into a sitcom for NBC using Eric McCormack in the role of "Will" and Debra Messing being cast to play "Grace". The show would go on to last 11 seasons and won many awards along the way. But was this show good right from the first episode? Listen in as the S1E1 guys review the show's first episode, "Love and Marriage".  www.S1E1POD.com

This week Val and Rachel discuss Boston Common, an American sitcom television series created by David Kohan and Max Mutchnick (from Will and Grace), and aired on NBC from March 21, 1996, to April 27, 1997. The series was one of the 10 highest rated shows in its first season as it ranked 8th in the yearly ratings with a 15.6 household rating, but with a move to Sundays in its second season, the show dropped from 8th to 52nd place.  Boyd Pritchett is a genial, easy-going twenty-something from Virginia who delivers his sister Wyleen to college in Boston. Then Boyd falls in love with Joy and decides to stay, much to Wyleen's dismay. Boyd eventually gets a job at the college to help pay his sister's tuition and shares an apartment with Wyleen. Hot Topics Include: 1.) Full-on trash-talking Boston 2.) Foxfire/Angelina Jolie, Shelley Long, Margot Kidder, Zach Galifinakis, Fun Bobby, and more! 3.) Tuna.com 4.) The reality of working at a university 5.) What Ya Watchin': Curb Your Enthusiasm, Jim Gaffigan's new comedy special, Search Party, Pen15 6.) What Ya Readin': Mystery on the Mount    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Common_(TV_series)

The dolls go to jail when they star in a sitcom acting challenge, Hot in Tuckaho, coached by Will & Grace co-creator Max Mutchnick. With extra special guest judges Max Mutchnick & MadTV's Nicole Sullivan. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/best-friends-ruview/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/best-friends-ruview/support

Season finale of Will and Grace! Jack and Estefan’s wedding takes a detour when they’re forced to get married at the airport by their friend Miss Coco; Will’s worried his relationship may turn long distance and Grace meets s a new man! Join hosts Louisa Sharamatyan, Brendan Haley and Mayte Carrillo as they break it all down! A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Jack realizes he lost 13 gold coins he’s supposed to give Estefan at their wedding to avoid a curse. Grace is losing her identity with her relationship with Noah! Karen is taking it too extra with Nikkie. Hosts @louisasharamatyan @cristal823 @Brendanhaley and @MayteCarillo break it down. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

When both of their boyfriends ask to move in, Will and Grace use each other as an excuse to get out of it; Jack gets stuck in an elevator and runs into someone from the past, and Samira Wiley makes a guest appearance! Join in the conversation with @LouisaSharamatyan @ThisisMayte @BrendanHaley A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun!

Grace’s dad is acting homophobic and Karen is out of control with her wedding planning… Join in the conversation with @LouisaSharamatyan @ThisisMayte @BrendanHaley A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun!

Love is in the air! Grace and Noah are tuning in on their love, Karen gives us an inside on her passion for romance novels and Jack’s boyfriend Estefan makes an appearance! Join hosts Louiza Sharamatyan, Mayte Carrillo, Cristal McLaughlin and Brendan Haley as they discuss tonight’s romantic episode!! A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Grace’s campaign is on the run, Will has the case of a stage 5 clinger and Karen is up to some mischief!! Join hosts Louiza Sharamatyan, Mayte Carrillo and Brendan Haley as they chat all about tonight’s episode! A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

It’s the return of a lover! Malcom makes a surprise visit, Will dives into the world of flirting and Jack revives his acting craft. Please join Mayte Carrillo, Cristal McLaughlin and Brendan Haley as they break tonight’s hilarious episode! A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Karen has a special moment with her step daughter Olivia, Will tries everything to make his students like him and Jack and Grace go to extreme measures to lose weight. Hosts @LouizaShar and @Cristal823 break it down A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

This week, David & Carolyn talk about Grace being a bully, hitting on people at funerals, and pajamas: who wears them?Here is Max Mutchnick’s episode of Homophilia, which you should definitely give a listen to!Thank you to all of our Patrons so far, especially Patrick & Emily J. and Natalie G.! Please visit Patreon to become a supporter of Will & Grace & Vodka and get some cool merch!Follow our fabulous Spotify Playlist, featuring every song sung or played on Will & Grace. Madonna is making it to the list this week!Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, & Facebook!Click here to give us a rating and a review! We'll love you forever for it, and maybe shout you out on the podcast!Theme Song by the magnificent PJ Hanke. And a huge thanks to Executive Producer, Sasha Gerritson!

It’s Jack’s Birthday and things get super wet! Will and Grace do naughty things to the dead! Hosting tonight is Cristal McLaughlin, Mayte Carrillo, and Louiza Sharamatyan! A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Join Louiza Sharamatyan and Mayte Carrillo to break down episode 9 of season 10 of Will and Grace entitled "Family, Trip"! A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Emmy Award winning producer & creator of Will & Grace, Max Mutchnick, joins Matt & Dave this week to reveal how Will & Grace really got back on the air, hosting President Bill Clinton at his house and a memorable encounter with Kevin Spacey. Plus, meeting his husband at a drag show, loneliness, and getting hit by the gay hammer. This episode is sponsored by Robinhood (www.homophilia.robinhood.com), Blinkist (www.blinkist.com/HOMO), and Blue Chew (www.bluechew.com code: HOMO).

Will dates a hot Anchor Man. Grace whips herself around the pole to help out Karen get old photos of Lorraine and Stan. Will sticks up for Jack. Join hosts Louiza Shar, Cristal McLaughlin as they talk and laugh about being true to yourself. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Grace meets Noah’s daughter Katie, Will’s mom Marilyn visits, Jack argues with his boss. Hosting tonight is Louzia Sharamatyan, Cristal McLaughlin, and Mayte Carrillo! A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Will discovers that Noah has a child he hasn’t told Grace about, but is now sworn  to secrecy. Karen and Jack’s relationship is tested when she fired him from the play she’s producing and replaces him with Jon Cryer. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Grace reveals a past secret, changing their relationship forever. Legendary drag queen Miss Coco Peru Emcees a lip-sync monologue throwdown to determine who will be Jack’s man, Will or Karen. Hosting tonight is Crista McLaughlin, Mayte Carrillo, and Louiza Sharamatyan! A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Now a certified psychic, Jack Channels Rosario to help Karen open her heart to love again. Grace learns love means having to say you’re sorry…. To Will. Hosting tonight is Cristal Mclaughlin, Mayte Carrillo, and Louiza Sharamatyan A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Half the gang heads to Texas for Jack’s grandson’s rectial and Karen’s “support” for the border wall. Are Grace and Noah in a relationship or just friends? A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Will gets a job as a teacher. Grace runs for “office,”Jack has commitment issues and Karen goes missing! Hosts Cristal McLaughlin and Louiza Shar discuss it all on the Will & Grace after show! A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Our characters are funnier than ever as they navigate living in the big apple. Guest star David Schwimmer makes an appearance. The laughs are as uproarious as last season. Hosting tonight is Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, Louiza Sharamatyan, Mayte Carrillo. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, Nakia Monet, and Louiza Sharamatyan discuss episode 16. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, and Nakia Monet discuss episode 15. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Nakia Monet, and Louiza Sharamatyan discuss episode 14. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, Nakia Monet, and Louiza Sharamatyan discuss episode 13. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Nakia Richardson, and Briana Phipps discuss episode 12. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, and Nakia Monet discuss episode 11. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVRealit --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Cristal McLaughlin, Nakia Money, and Louiza Sharamatyan discuss episode 10. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - http://www.youtube.com/c/ --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, Nakia Richards, and Louiza Sharamatyan discuss episodes 8 and 9. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, Lacretia Lyon, and Louiza Sharamatyan discuss episode 7. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - http:// --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, Louiza Sharamatyan, and Sanders Kennedy discuss episode 6. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - http: --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, and Sanders Kennedy discuss episode 5. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - http://www.youtube.com/c/ --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

For "Will & Grace" creators David Kohan and Max Mutchnick, the NBC revival is a welcome homecoming. They recently sat down with IndieWire's TURN IT ON to discuss the revival (and some of the new ideas they eventually tossed out), how they worked around the tricky series finale by tossing it out, touching on politics in a Trump age -- they have some thoughts about Mike Pence -- and how they feel like it will never get better than this.

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, and Sanders Kennedy discuss episode 4. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - http://www.youtube.com/c/ --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, Nakia Richardson, and Sanders Kennedy discuss episode 3. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - http:// --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Cristal McLaughlin, Nakia Richardson, and Sanders Kennedy discuss episode 2. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - http://www.youtube.com/c --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

AFTERBUZZ TV – Will & Grace edition, is a weekly “after show” for fans of NBC’s Will & Grace. In this episode hosts Timothy Michael, Cristal McLaughlin, Nakia Richardson, and Sanders Kennedy discuss episode 1. A weekly after-show series that breaks down episodes of NBC's Will & Grace. The series is an American sitcom created by Max Mutchnick and David Kohan. Set in New York City, the show focuses on the relationship between best friends Will Truman (Eric McCormack), a gay lawyer, and Grace Adler (Debra Messing), a straight interior designer. Throughout our series coverage we'll bring in guests to join in on the fun! Subscribe to our NEW YouTube Channels: Drama - https://www.youtube.com/afterbuzztvdrama Comedy - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVComedy Animation - http://www.youtube.com/c/AfterBuzzTVAnimation Featured & Original - http://youtube.com/afterbuzztv Reality TV - http:// --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

When Will & Grace co-creator Max Mutchnick went to his long-time writing partner David Kohan with the idea of reuniting the cast for a one-off web video, Kohan humored him. Little did he know the reunion would end up going far beyond that one short video. Will, Grace, Karen and of course, just Jack -- are now coming back to NBC for two new seasons.