Podcast appearances and mentions of Larry Sanders

Neal Brennan interviews Carol Leifer (Standup, 'Seinfeld,' 'Hacks,' 'SNL' & Much More) about the things that make her feel lonely, isolated, and like something's wrong - and how she is persevering despite these blocks. Carol's new book is called 'How to Write a Funny Speech... for a Wedding, Bar Mitzvah, Graduation & Every Other Event You Didn't Want to Go to in the First Place: https://www.amazon.com/How-Write-Funny-Speech-Graduation/dp/1797232231 ---------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Intro 00:48 Start in Show Business 5:25 Jerry Seinfeld 7:49 Improving at Standup 9:38 Moving to LA 12:51 Women in Comedy 14:51 Sponsor: Hims 16:05 Sponsor: Tushy 17:41 Bulletproof 19:71 Becoming Lesbian 26:29 Having a Kid 32:52 Sponsor: Mando 34:35 Sponsor: BetterHelp 35:53 Working 37:32 Seinfeld, Larry Sanders, Modern Family, Hacks 41:55 SNL Regrets 47:40 Career vs. Relationships 50:42 How to Write a Funny Speech 56:38 Spirituality / Mortality 59:45 Goals & Regrets ---------------------------------------------------------- Follow Neal Brennan: https://www.instagram.com/nealbrennan https://twitter.com/nealbrennan https://www.tiktok.com/@mrnealbrennan Watch Neal Brennan: Crazy Good on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81728557 Watch Neal Brennan: Blocks on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81036234 Theme music by Electric Guest (unreleased). Edited by Will Hagle (wthagle@gmail.com)  Sponsors: Visit https://www.hims.com/NEAL for your personalized ED treatment options. Over 2 Million Butts Love TUSHY. Get 10% off TUSHY with the code [NEAL] at https://hellotushy.com/NEAL Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @shop.mando and get $5 off off your Starter Pack (that's over 40% off) with promo code [NEAL] at Mandopodcast.com/NEAL #mandopod This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/neal and get on your way to being your best self. Sponsor Blocks: https://public.liveread.io/media-kit/blocks ---------------------------------------------------------- #podcast #comedy #mentalhealth #standup Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Growing up with Lovitz, auditioning for Larry Sanders, and more showbiz stories with Lisa Kudrow. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rosie Shuster and Marilyn Suzanne Miller join me to talk about MSM's love of the musical Peter Pan; Rosie loving her dad's joke books, West Side Story, and being in the audience of the Ed Sullivan Show; Rosie meets Lorne Michaels and Howard Shore; MSM goes to work for James L. Brooks & Garry Marshall; Rosie writes for Canadian children and crime game shows; sends a monologue for Laugh In that Lorne submits and gets on; Lorne uses Rosie's fathers (Frank Shuster of Wayne & Shuster) CBC specials as a blueprint for SNL; MSM turns down SNL, changes mind; work together on a Lily Tomlin special; cast goes on Tom Snyder; Rosie writes New Dad and creates the Bees; Rosie writes first Emily Litella Update piece; MSM writes Slumber Party for Madeline Kahn; Hard Hars w/ Lily Tomlin and Mommy Beer; Laraine (as Shirley Temple) sings and dances with Garrett and Elliot Gould; The Nerds; The Festrunk Brothers; Uncle Roy; Let's Kill Gary Gilmore for Christmas; Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute; how SNL wanted to make itself laughs and everyone in the production was on top of their game; Lunch Counter Reunion; Lorne encourage differet comic sensibilities; Child Psychologist; coming back in 1981; Eddie Murphy; Adam Sandler; Rosie helping to craft the Church Lady sketches with Dana Carvey; The Taboosters; writing sketches more graphic to bargain for what you really want; MSM goes to the Tracey Ullman Show; Sarah Silverman; MSM on lack of artistry on television; Rosie works on Larry Sanders; MSM writes for Carol Burnett; Rosie is a fan of Arte Madrid; watching SNL today; ageism in Hollywood; Paul Shaffer's genius; being "middle-aged"

Joining Iain Dale on Cross Question this evening, on election day in the US, are Green campaigner and brother of Bernie Sanders Larry Sanders, Republicans Overseas UK chair Greg Swenson, foreign policy expert Elisabeth Braw and broadcaster Tom Rivers.

Andy and Sean discuss the pilot episode of Action (Fox 1999), a dark comedy about Hollywood and the entertainment industry.Action is currently streaming on Apple+ and available on Prime.Podcast episode available on streaming platforms tomorrow.Support the showFollow us on IG & TikTok @CoPilotsTV ! Discussions and Bonus content at patreon.com/CoPilotsTv !Hosted bySean Conroy (IG, Twitter, TikTok)Andy Secunda (IG, Twitter)Produced by Agustin IslasComedy Writers, TV Review, Funny Reviews, Entertainment, UCB Improv, Fun Reviews, Pilot Writing, Pilot Episode, First Episode, TV Writing, Comedian Reviews

Hey my wonderful sweet babies, Follow Me: Instagram- fabvictoria94Twitter- VictoriaB_94Snapchat- fab_victoriaTikTok: FabVictoria94Facebook: Victoria BishopFacebook Page- Fabulous Victoria BroadcastsPodcast Name- Fabulous Victoria PodcastYouTube Main Channel: Fabulous VictoriaCashApp: $fabvictoria (optional)Email me for business inquiries only:bishopvictoria94@gmail.comTHIS VIDEO IS NOT SPONSORED.

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 29th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on July 29th, 2024. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

Recorded on Sunday, June 9, 2024 we talk aboutb Timmy smoking weed, the Tom Petty documentary Runin' Down a Dream. the Larry Sanders show, Colombo, dinner, a weird dream and more.

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 28th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on June 19th, 2024. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 27th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on May 23rd, 2024. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

Rich and the guys react to Anthony Edwards and the Timberwolves utter destruction of the defending NBA champions Denver Nuggets in Game 2 of their series, Jalen Brunson dropping 40 (again) in the Knicks' Game 1 victory over the Indiana Pacers, and debate if Brockman was being too superstitious when refusing to take a photo with the NBA's Larry O'Brien championship trophy. To honor having the Larry O'Brien Trophy on-set, Rich lists his all-time top 10 Larry's including Larry David, Larry Johnson, Larry Sanders, Larry Hagman and others. Please check out other RES productions: Overreaction Monday: http://apple.co/overreactionmonday  What the Football with Suzy Shuster and Amy Trask: http://apple.co/whatthefootball Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 26th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on April 25th, 2024. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

Lamar Odom linked up with Adam to talk about his brand new podcast with Caitlyn and their cohost Zach, his past challenges, reality TV, and more! ----- 0:00 Intro 0:22 Lamar and his associate Zach present their podcast "Keeping Up With Sports" (like Keeping up with Kardashians) 3:30 Are the Kardashians really mad at the pod? "The show is not about them" 4:40 Why Caitlyn is not doing press with Lamar? 7:30 Adam is surprised he didnt see them at the P Hub awards, Zach praises Plug Talk, Adam asks if there's any chance his pod takes the same trajectory lol "NOPE!" 9:20 Lamar is single: "I enjoy m****bation"; Adam asks what's his ritual? "Get up and do it" 11:25 Lamar says ex NBA player Larry Sanders started doing p, Adam remembers shooting his shot with Keysah Chavis 13:05 Lamar says he used to play with Joe Smith and that he can rap too 13:55 Lamar says he jumped in the pod scene coz it's poppin so he was like why not, while reality TV is scripted, he says his show with Khloe was not at all, "Lam Lam" was his nickname 16:00 Adam explains his April fools prank and how the roll out/build up came about 17:28 Zach keeps repeating what Adam says 18:38 Lamar says he wants more kids 21:05 De Niro had a kid at 80, how do you even have sex at 80? lol, The 3 ask Adam's dad who's in the room 22:40 Lamar interview with Bootleg Kev, Kev is so knowledgeable on basketball 26:30 Lamar recovery homes project, money is tight he's looking for investors, Lamar says he's the best person to do this coz he lived it 28:40 Lil Peep od kinda woke a few ppl up from using 29:28 After the coma, Lamar never tried any drugs again, says he had 12 strokes and 6 heart attacks after the coma 29:55 Adam asks who would have been motivated to harm him, says he gave the owner of the place, Dennis, $75,000 soon as he walked in, dude was sketchy 31:30 Rumor has it that Lamar tried blow during a wild night, a dude left Lamar with his girl to be w her that night 32:53 Adam tells a story of a podcaster who wanted Adam to F his wife 37:50 Adam talks about his friend who od while in rehab, Lamar wants to start his own facility, 39:30 Lamar talks about enablers, his best friend was one of them, his "get high buddy", however that friend didn't survive 40:00 Says they were hangin out one day he took his shoes off and Lamar says it smelled like death 42:37 Adam recalls the Blackout Girls episode w that girl talking about Tristan Thompson and Khloe sending a cease and desist 45:25 Adam says he has a scene later on that day, Lamar asks if he can watch 46:30 Adam asks if Lamar is still a s*x a**ct, long pause/laughs 48:30 Diddy parties, you're safe when it's a big party not like 4 ppl type thing 51:50 Kanye's fall from grace? Lamar says he looks up to Kanye coz he's black, an owner, although they haven't really been in touch since he woke up from his coma 55:30 Lamar guests on the pod, Sugar Ray Leonard was a guest and talked about ab***e 57:55 Lamar says it was a wake up call to be in a coma coz he might still be wild if it hadnt happened 58:40 Lamar wants to be surrounded by ppl who motivate him, who are smarter than him, that he can learn from 1:01:45 Lamar wants to help the homeless/clean it up, but he doesn't know how, seeing kids on skid row is heartbreaking 1:05:05 "1 + 1 = 1 not circle" huh? lol 1:07:00 Zach and Adam tell Lamar what Soft White Underbelly is 1:08:05 Lamar is hungry at that point, he wants to eat not "Baja Fresh" lol, Zach wanna bulk up 1:10:40 Lamar keeps looking at Lena's flash light "she got a nice box" lol 1:11:40 Would Lamar give a t***s a chance? "This guy's crazy" Lamar walks out Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 25th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on March 26th, 2024. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

It's not Larry Sanders.

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 24th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on February 26th, 2024. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 23rd Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on January 31st, 2024. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

Chris Williamson and Terrika Foster-Brasby are joined by Basketball Society's Martin Soaries to discuss Kevin Durant's GOAT status. Listen to an enlightening conversation about mental health in the NBA with former Milwaukee Buck Dr. Larry Sanders. Lastly, we applaud the winningest coach in college basketball history, Stanford's Tara Vanderveer, while confronting media bias in women's sports. ►3on3 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/3on3pod/  ►3on3 X- https://twitter.com/the3on3Pod  ►3on3 YouTube Chanel - https://www.youtube.com/@3on3Pocast  ►Inflection Network YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@TheINflectionNetwork ► Inflection Network Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/inflectionent/?hl=en  Chris Williamson ► Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/cwilliamsontv9/?hl=en  ► X | https://twitter.com/CWilliamson44  Terrika Foster-Brasby ► Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/sheknowssports_/  ► X | https://twitter.com/sheknowssports  DiDi Richards ► Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/didirich2/?hl=en  ► X | https://twitter.com/deauzya?lang=en  #3on3pod #AllIN #InflectionNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 22nd Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on December 27th, 2023. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

This week on Radio Labyrinth, we're joined by actor and comedian Josh Warren, catching up on his year and discussing wrestling, the Robocop debate, and more. A new A.I. Video commercials, and we share listener comments. Dive into Views or Snooze for must-watch content and Staff Picks for the week's best shows. Show your love - hit subscribe, thumbs-up, and leave a positive rating on Spotify. Tune in, keep it canon! Video Podcast: https://youtu.be/3oUOhsNV5Y4 #RadioLabyrinth, #JoshWarren, #Wrestling, #Robocop, #DWA, #KeepItCanon, #FargoSeason5, #LarrySanders, #TheoVon, #ActionShowStudios, #RadioLabyrinthPodcast ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ Guest: Josh Warren @ActionShowStudios Hosts: Tim Andrews, Jeff Leiboff, Steph Swain and Dustin Lollar Audio Podcast & YouTube Video Edited by Dustin Lollar Redd Boxx Puppet created by Mark Schrankel @WhoBuddiez.com ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ NEW MERCH STORE LINK: https://my-store-6887063.creator-spring.com/ USE CODE: RLP123 at checkout for 10% OFF TIM'S CAMEO: https://www.cameo.com/tandrewsatl?fbclid=IwAR3G-bUKfLDmT2SHY2zydO1NYb-Ss3fkYr037rhtuBFONYigw-_Vm1ZicYw ALL SOCIAL MEDIA LINKS: https://linktr.ee/RadioLabyrinth ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ SPONSORS: Atlanta Pizza & Gyro http://www.atlantapizzagyro.com/ https://www.facebook.com/atlpizza/ LDI REPRO PRINTING OF ATHENS CALL 706-316-9366 OR EMAIL THEM AT ATHENS@LDILINE.COM. ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀ THANK YOU SO MUCH TO ALL OF OUR RADIO PRODUCERS & PATRONS! Thanks to our Radio Labyrinth Producers: Jeff Peterson, Bryan Smith, Chelsey Smith, Kevin Jackson, Jim Fortner, Brett Perkins, Terri Fuller, Chris Chandler, Tim Slaton, Mike Hall, Mike D, Matt Carter & Robey Neeley  And thank you to all of our awesome Patreon Patrons: Hemp Huntress, Tracy McCoy, Emily Warren, Buck Monterey, Randy Reeves, Robey Neeley, Robert Kerns, Wayne Blair, Sherrie Dougherty, Rusty Weinberg, Michael Einhaus, Mark Weilandt, Leslie Haynie, Kevin Stokes, Jesse Rusinski, Jeremy Truman, Jeff Peterson, Herb Lamb, Gwynne Ketcham, Denise Reynolds, David C Funk, Collin Omen, Christopher Doerr, Chris Weilandt, Chris Cosentino, Erick Malmstrom, Brian Jackson, Brennon Price, Andrew Mulazzi, Andrew Harbin, Amber Gilpatrick, Alan Barker, Aaron Roberts, Walt Murray PI, Sam Wells, Ryan Wilson, Lou Coniglio, Kevin Schwartz, Gus Turner, Jim Fortner, Scott Augustine, Jonathan Wilson, Cynthia Hadaway, Tony Outlaw, Dave Benson,Jack G and Adam Lavezzo!

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 21st Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on November 29th, 2023. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

A very special episode, live from the Battle of Ideas, discussing the meaning of performance and "cultural cosplay"! In this first ever live episode of Performance Anxiety, Maren and Alex are delighted to welcome their first ever guest host and interlocutor, writer and broadcaster Timandra Harkness. Timandra helps the team explain why they started the podcast and why they chose to analyse performance in particular. The team then use their particular set of skills to analyse the Bradley Cooper film Maestro, looking especially at whether or not Cooper's prosthetic nose is "cultural cosplay". This episode contains one reference to the sitcom Larry Sanders. A special prize awaits the listener who spots it!

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 20th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on October 30th, 2023. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

A new MP3 sermon from Lemoyne Baptist Church is now available on SermonAudio with the following details: Title: The Silent Killer Speaker: Larry Sanders Broadcaster: Lemoyne Baptist Church Event: Sunday Service Date: 10/22/2023 Bible: Psalm 32:1-5 Length: 47 min.

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 19th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on September 29th, 2023. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 18th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on August 31st, 2023. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

Happened In the 90's hosted by Steve and Matt picks a day, any day, and then goes back in time to that magical decade we all know and love the 90's, to revisit episodes of tv, movies that premiered, or cultural events that occurred on that day in the 90's. This week Steve and Matt wish a belated birthday to Kobe Bryant, Happy Kobe Bryant Day. They also wish a very happy birthday to 2 legends, Dave Chappelle and Vince McMahon. Then Steve educates Matt about 07/27 and some non-Matt G related greatness that occurred on his birthday. After that it's time to hit play on that Jock Jamz CD and throw some lawn darts cause we're talking all things August 24th in the 90's. SEGMENT 1 Show: Blossom Episode: No Cure For Love (Season: 3 | Episode: 3) Premiere Date: 08/24/1992 Story: Nick is cleaning the house, Vinnie and Blossom want different things from their relationship. Joey fears it was his fault a girl he dumped got into an accident. SEGMENT 2 Show: The Larry Sanders Show Episode: Like No Business I Know (Season: 3 | Episode: 10) Premiere Date: 08/24/1994 Story: An appearance by Bobcat Goldthwait creates tension; Hank entertains a job offer from Regis Philbin. Thanks for listening! Watch all new episode every Thursday here on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk5uXQXE9WGIWcpSkNkXaOg Audio available on all major platforms. Email Us At: hitnineties@gmail.com Instagram: HappenedInThe90s Twitter: HIThe90s Facebook: @HappenedInThe90s Website: https://happenedinthe90s.com MERCH LINK: https://www.redbubble.com/people/HIT90s/shop?asc=u&ref=account-nav-dropdown

On this week's episode, television veteran Michael Burger (Family Feud, Price is Right, Mike and Maty, and many many more) talks about his showbiz career. He looks back on memories from working on cruise ships as well as being able to work with some of his idols.SHOW NOTESMichael Burger's IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0121221/Michael Burger's Website: https://www.michaelburger.com/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTSMichael Jamin:So when you shoot a multi-camera sitcom the audience, they bring in an audience and it could take, I dunno, it could easily take five hours to shoot a half hour of television.Michael Burger:22 minutes. Five and a half. Yeah. Five hours to shoot. 22.Michael Jamin:And so what's the audience doing while they're resetting the scenes or the actors are changing?Michael Burger:Well, I've got a lot of stories. Some. I had a guy die once. What? And I just thought he was taking a nap. Yeah. I kept looking up going, God, I don't, A comic wants everybody engaged. Right? And he's just, and at the end, he's not leaving every, the bus is gone and they card him out and he died on the way to the hospital. I guess they revived him, then he died.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael. Hey everyone, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael. I got a cool guest today. So as many of you know, my very first comedy writing job in Hollywood, I was a joke writer on a morning TV show on a b C called the Mike and Maddie Show. And my next guest is Michael Berger, the host of Mike and Mad Mike, thank you so much for joining me here. A areMichael Burger:You nice to see and reconnect with you again? It's been a fewMichael Jamin:And you are this, I know you're not quite a screenwriter, but I think have a lot to, I don't know, just a lot to add to the conversation because you're a professional talk show host and you posted so much. I'm going to blow through some of your credits real fast just so people, but don'tMichael Burger:Blow through 'em. I want you to land on 'em and marinate on 'em for a while.Michael Jamin:Let's linger on them unnecessarily for a long time. So obviously Mike and Maddie, but the Home and Family Feud, the live version as well as the Price is right, the live version, thousand Dollars Pyramid Match Game, iron Chef Personals, the Late Night Dating Show Straight to the Heart, not to mention your long history as a standup comedian on cruise ships, and then later doing warmup. I want for audiences for sitcom audiences, which I know you've, we've been on any of the same shows, which is, that's a whole nother level of comedy. I want to talk about that. But first I want to talk about where you began. It was, how did you become a comedian for cruise ships?Michael Burger:Well, a lot of these entries into showbiz come in through the side door. And this was certainly the case. I was a big fan of Steve Martin and back in the late seventies, there was a contest where they were looking for a Steve Martin lookalike and the payoff, the winner got a spot on the Tonight Show with Carson. So I figured this is my entry in, so I figured that I win this contest and I get my own show. Well,Michael Jamin:And you didMichael Burger:Well. You had to submit a cassette tape, audio cassette tape of you doing Steve Martin. No video cameras just a cassette. And they wanted that in theory, in front of a live audience while I had, I hadn't done any standup. There's no live audience, but my audience in the day was my classroom. So I went back to my high school and said, can I borrow the classroom and just do Steve Martin's material and I'll take my best cut from that. So I went to five teachers. I did five minute sets, and I submitted that tape with the best of the five to the radio station who said, yeah, great. Come on up to the tower records parking lot on Sunset, where there's 25 of us dressed like Steve Martin doing. You're a wild and crazy guy. I win that and go to San Francisco and I meet the western Halfie of the United States at the boarding house, and I win that. And the finals are at the Comedy store with the entire country represented. I'm one of six. Steve Martin is there, Carl Reiner is there. And the winner, the payoff is the Tonight Show spot. And I do, my thing and my twist on it was I came out white suit arrow through the head, no pants with boxers that said a B, C news brief.So I figured I'd add my joke and the guy I was up against that I thought was my competition, played banjo so well and looked like Steve. I thought, there's no way. Right. He does his bit, I do my bit. It's a tie between me and this guy from Nashville that looked like Steve. Steve Martin comes on stage and he's holding our wrists like a ref in a boxing match. And he holds up the other guy's hand. Okay, that guy wins. I lose, three months later I'm watching The Tonight Show and Johnny goes, oh, we have a guest tonight. And Steve Martin comes out and he's out for about 30 seconds and you realize it's not Steve. The real Steve comes out bound and gagged yelling, this guy's an imposter. That guy goes away. We never hear from him again. And that was my first taste at showbiz.Michael Jamin:And you were like, what? 20 something?Michael Burger:Yeah. Yeah. Maybe I was 27, 28. But what would you, somebody saw that and said, Hey, can you do that on a cruise ship? Can you do standup on a ship?Michael Jamin:But wait, what would've you done if you had won this? Because then you would've been on the Tonight Show, but you didn't have an act.Michael Burger:Well, I would do kind of what that kid did. The whole bit was to pay Steve Martin's movie off The Jerk that was coming out. And it was just a sight gag, but I certainly would've come up with something. And then, so what I wound up doing initially after that, and this is in the height of all the singing comedy telegrams, remember back in the day, dancing bears and roller skates? Yeah. So I did a Steve Martin lookalike Soundalike Comedy Telegram where Michael would hire me to make fun of somebody, and I would get all the information and I would go wherever they are, a bank, an office. I actually stopped a wedding once as Steve Martin air through the head white suit, hold on, I don't think this is right. And do a little Steve Martin thing. And there was a guy in the audience at a restaurant who came over after I just did this Rickles kind of riff. And he goes, that's very funny. Can you do ships? And I said, sure. And that's how I got on a cruise ship. And then I'd come on as Steve, and then I'd do my whole act after that, which I developed over time.Michael Jamin:But your act was basically kind of making fun of Steve, or was it all playingMichael Burger:Well, no, you quickly. No, I had some comedy ideas, but what I realized as soon as I got on the ship, 70% of the material comes from being on the ship. Right. I dunno if you've ever worked ships, but No. Oh, there's so much material. It's such a ripe group. And thenMichael Jamin:It's so interesting, you never even did the comedy clubs. You really came up your own way.Michael Burger:I really did. I did a few because of that little bit of notoriety, but the cruise ships were a better paying gig. You got to see the world and you really felt like you were in the business. You had a band behind you generally. There was an opening act. The only downside was if you didn't do well, you'd have to see these people for the next three days, four days, seven days.Michael Jamin:But howMichael Burger:Many I loved it.Michael Jamin:How many shows would you do on a, so you were like, let's say it was a seven day tour. How many shows would you do?Michael Burger:Two.Michael Jamin:That's it really?Michael Burger:Yeah. Yeah. I would do the three and four day cruises down to Ensenada and back. And so I would do welcome aboard show, I would be the headliner. I'd come out and do my hour, and then they said, you can do anything you want on Sunday night. So I'd go in the back lounge and then just try stuff. And that's really where you kind of learned what's funny, what's not. So I got to do, my God, for anybody listening that remembers the Catskills in those old days where you just work well clubs today, you go out and work material, I could go in that back room and I would go on at midnight and the buffet would start at midnight. And my goal as a performer was if I could keep people from getting up and leaving my show to go eat again, then I realized I had some pretty good material. So I would do an hour and a half, two hours in the back room.Michael Jamin:ButMichael Burger:The moment that really, maybe this is where you're headed, that launched my career was in the middle of the cruise. They had a passenger talent show. And on one of these cruises, the cruise director came up to me and said, Hey, can you fill in and host the Passenger Talent Show? I have other things to do. And he meant that as a verb. I mean, this guy was, he was all over the ship just right,Michael Jamin:Yeah. GoingMichael Burger:After whatever moved, you know what I mean? And I said, well, what do I do? And he goes, well, these people sign up throughout the week and then we turn 'em loose at midnight and they do whatever they do. Think America's Got Talent. And I said, well, what would you like me? Wait, introduce 'em, put a little show together, go at 11 o'clock at night, get with the piano player and you figure out maybe an order. I said, well, okay. It sounds like fun. So I did that. And I'm telling you, Michael, I had more fun doing that than any standup really. I had a chance to talk to somebody, where are you from? What do you do? And then you turn 'em loose. But because, and it's not unlike warmup where someone else is the star where someone else has the focus. You just set 'em up and turn 'em loose. Yeah. I had an 85 year old woman, get up and tap dance to the Lord's Prayer. You don't need to top that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. How do you, right.Michael Burger:I mean, I had everything. Right. So I started doing this and about at the same time, I was doing warmup for a game show. We're going to go way back now, a dance show called Dance Fever.Michael Jamin:Yes. WhichMichael Burger:Is again, these dancing shows, but way back, right.Michael Jamin:It was solid Gold and Dance Fever, those two shows. That'sMichael Burger:It. And they had three celebrity judges and they would judge the dancers. And the Cue card woman comes up to me on a commercial break and she goes, N B C is going to do a morning game show. And they want somebody new, somebody unknown, someone that no one's heard of. I said, that's me. I, I'm in the middle of the ocean. No one knows me. She goes, do you have a tape? I said, nah, I got a tape. Sure. I got a tape, I got no tape. So the very next cruise I go back on, I put 2,500 bucks on my credit card and I go buy that two piece video system where you had to buy the base unit, the head unit. And I brought that on the ship. I put it on a tripod, I put it back by the soundboard, and I pushed record and I videotaped every one of these passenger talent shows that I hosted and then cut everybody out.And it just kept my moment. My first demo tape was six minutes of me doing that. Right. So this woman at Dance Fever says, get me that tape. I'll get it to N B C. The two people in charge were Jake Talbert and Brian Franz. They were the presidents of daytime television, N B C. So she sends in the tape and I get a call, my agent and I come in, I have an agent at this point, and they go, do you know why you're here? And I said, yeah, Mary Steck was nice enough. I said, no, it's the guy at the end. I said, what do you mean the old guy? Yeah. What about him? Well, there's this charming old man that I'm introducing and playing with, and he grabs the mic out of my hand and goes, you must be saying something very funny, but I don't get it. Well, it's a huge laugh. And the N B C exec said the fact that that guy got the laugh and you let him have his moment and you didn't come back over with one more ad lib of your own tells me you got a sense of how to host. It's about making someone else shine. He said, we can teach you how to host a game show, but we can't teach you as the instinct to make someone else look better. Were youMichael Jamin:Aware of that though? I mean, we,Michael Burger:Not really. Yeah. I mean, I got better at it and I realized the sneaky joy of this is that if you get a laugh and get out of the way, put the onus back on them when you do a talk show. But when theyMichael Jamin:Said this to you, you're like, oh my God, I, I've been doing this all along and I didn't realize this. Or were you consciously doing that?Michael Burger:I think there was sort of a Midwest polite mentality, kind of how I was raised, don't interrupt, all that kind of stuff. It kind of goes part and parcel just being, I don't know, polite iss the perfect word. My dad was from Missouri, my mom was from Minnesota. We kind of raised in a polite family. I just thought that was the right thing. But I also realized that boy, you could use this to your advantage, 'em shine. And that I work at it to this day trying to be a better listener and try to be better at picking my moments. That's how it started. That's literally how my career started out at sea. AndMichael Jamin:Then so then what happened with that audition then?Michael Burger:So I got the pilot. I got the pilot for N B C Morning Talk show. My very first time on a lot is at N B C. And I'm parked six spots down from Johnny Carson. It's got a white Corvette. His license plate said 360 Guy thought that was a clever license plate all around Guy. Yeah. I'm six spots down from Carson. I just got off the boat. I am so far from showbiz. I'm walking on the set. We shoot the pilot at the same time. They're just about finished with a Tonight Show. We shot across the hall, very little security back in the eighties. I open the door and I walk in and I sit next to Gregory Peck. Colonel Michael going shelf is so easy. Yeah. He goes on, he comes out, I say, hi, Carson walks by, gives me one of these. Everybody walks out and we all go home. Kicker. The story is Pilot did not get picked up, but the production company, reg Grundy, who did all of those shows back in the day, sail of the Century and Scrabble, liked what I did and put me on retainer for a year to develop something else.Michael Jamin:But did they, and I never even asked you about Mike and Maddie did like Yeah. Did they coach you at all before you start doing this? Did they rehearse you or is it like, well, this is who we hired, let him do his thing?Michael Burger:It's a good question. In the game show world, when we were getting ready to do a game show, they would remind me that the first half of the game is fun and q and a and get some joy out of these contestants and root for 'em. And then when it shifts to the bonus round, there really needs to be a shift in tone. This money is serious money and this can change someone's life and this is not the place to go for a joke. Let's kind of shift the focus and really be there for 'em and root for 'em and console them if they lose and be happy for 'em when they win. So there was a little bit of that. Some of it, it's, most of it's just learning where your beats are, getting in and getting out.Michael Jamin:What about Mike in the game show world or home family, same kind of thing?Michael Burger:Well, Mike and Maddie was a whole nother league that was morning network everywhere in the country. And I was working with someone, which I had never done. So I came in for the audition and did well. And the woman I had auditioned with, they had a deal to put in place to put her on the air. And as I was driving home, my agent called and said, I don't know what happened in there, but they now want to do the show with you. And they're letting her go. Said, oh, well don't give her my address.Michael Jamin:AndMichael Burger:He said, we now have to find a woman to pair up with you for this morning talk show. And I thought, well, how do we do that? I said, well, Disney will set it all up. This is a dizzy production. And I auditioned and I audition's not even the right word. I sat down with 85 women and just said, how you doing? How you doing? And we just tried to see if there was any chemistry. It's like dating somebody. Is there there a connection? Maddie?Michael Jamin:This I had? No, I, I'm sorry, I have to interrupt. But this I had no idea about becauseMichael Burger:Yeah,Michael Jamin:It seems like they sell a show to A, B, C, they go, it's going to beMichael Burger:Morning show. We know, actually, let me back up. This show is going to be in syndication for Disney, which they could syndicate across the country and do anything. ABC's not involved at thisMichael Jamin:Moment.Michael Burger:So they had a development deal with this woman. They passed on, they put me in the spot. Now they got to pair me up. They pair me up, Maddie and I had instant chemistry. And about an hour after her audition, they say, we love you both. Let's do it. So we shot a pilot right at K H J on Melrose, a $40,000 pilot, right? I mean, that's about as cheap as you can get. And they took that pilot out and tested it and it tested as high as Oprah tested back in the day, right? A, B, C got wind of this and said, forget syndication, we'll put you on the air now. And three months later, Maddy and I hit the ground running, not knowing each other really. And what began a two year, 535 episode run with someone I got to know every day. We shot literally every, well, five days a week, Monday through Friday.Michael Jamin:So that's interesting.Michael Burger:We got to know each other. Got to learn the whole thing.Michael Jamin:I didn't know that was the origin of, because they're basically saying, okay, we're selling a morning TV show. We don't know who's in it yet, but if you like the idea of a morning TV show, we're going to audition this.Michael Burger:Back in the day, they were handing out these, they were handing these talk shows out pretty regularly. It was kind of the thing fairly inexpensive to produce, I guess. Although we had quite a budget. This was Morning Network. This was a big official show that we traveled and there was a nice budget for a big beautiful set. And everybody got what they needed to pull this off. And then celebrities would catch on and come on. And we had our favorites. And you got to sit down there with your idols. And yeah, there was a little pushback. The fact, I want to talk to you about this, because A, B, C was adamant that this show was not a comedy show in the morning. That you're taking people's time away from them and you got to give them something. They got to feel they haven't wasted their morning. So there's always a recipe, there's always something to learn from. And I came in kind of hot with this idea of comedy and they're going, no, people don't want to laugh in the morning. And I went, well, I got to disagree with you there, but Max Mutchnick and Max and who? Max and Dave, right?Michael Jamin:David Colleen, yeah.Michael Burger:Who created a little show calledMichael Jamin:Will and Grace.Michael Burger:So they were the first writers on Mike and Mad. And it was just overkill. We didn't need that much horsepower from them. They were so talented. They went on and did what they did. But I think because they brought me on, they certainly liked my sense of humor and thought this would be a nice way to wake up in the morning. So eventually they embraced the humor as long as he balanced it with information.Michael Jamin:And that show, it was Tamara Raw, Tamara, she was the producerMichael Burger:Started it.Michael Jamin:She started it. And I guess her vision was Letterman in the morning. But Letterman had a show in the morning. And so that's whereMichael Burger:You don't want to go down that path. And that kind of scared so, and part of this was wise that you, let's not waste people's time in the morning. Let's find that balance of being entertaining and give them a takeaway. And we realized that, I certainly found that balance. Maddie and I started to feel our own beats there on where we could jump in and we each got our own segments where we could shine. Yeah. Maddie was the greatest at locking in on a guest. And Carol Burnett came on and Maddie just started crying. That was, that's how she started the interview. It's because Maddie learned English having come from Cuba on one of the last Freedom Flights out. And now the show that she watched to learn English by the Carol Burnett Show. She's sitting there and she starts crying. Well, that's a great host showing her emotion, being interested. So yeah, I love working withMichael Jamin:Her. Yeah, she's delightful. Yeah, I remember, I remember taking, going to your dressing room with index cards versus jokes here, what about this?Michael Burger:And I wanted that so much to me that felt like Letterman and that felt like The Tonight Show. I was aching for that. I don't remember the conversation we had or what I fought for. I wanted Jonathan Winters on the show, and I had done warmup on his sitcom and they said, no, that's not our audience. And I went, what's not our audience? Funny. So I pushed, six months later, Jonathan came on and I got to sit with him and I got to do what Johnny Carson did with him, which was give him a hat and then do a character. And I thought, this is, I'm in heaven.Michael Jamin:ThisMichael Burger:Is as good as it gets. But it took some pushing because they thought, who wants Johnny in the morning? Yeah. So wait a minute.Michael Jamin:WhoMichael Burger:Doesn't want to laugh in the morningMichael Jamin:And be, but before that, you were still also doing warm before warm up. And then how did, so just so people know, so when you shoot a multi-camera sitcom, the audience, they bring in an audience and it could take, I dunno, it could easily take five hours to shoot a half hour of television.Michael Burger:22, 2 minutes, five and a half. Five hours to shoot 22.Michael Jamin:And so what's the audience doing while they're resetting the scenes or the actors are changing?Michael Burger:Well, I've got a lot of stories. Some had a guy die once. What? And I just thought he was taking a nap. Yeah. I kept looking up going, God, I, a comic wants everybodyMichael Jamin:Engaged.Michael Burger:And he's just, and at the end, he's not leaving every, the bus is gone and they car him out and he died on the way to the hospital. I guess they revived him, then he died. WhatMichael Jamin:Show was this?Michael Burger:Women in Prison?Michael Jamin:I don't remember. Don't remember. Women in Prison. Sure,Michael Burger:Sure you do. It was a sitcom with Wendy, Joe Sperber and Peggy Cass, an all star lineup. Blake Clark played the Warden and it was a sitcom about women in prison. I know. And I was the warmup. And then I did all of those types of sit. I mean, I did big ones, I did shows, you'd know. Yeah. Gosh, Mr. Belvedere is where I started.Michael Jamin:Remember one. AndMichael Burger:That's really where you learn, I don't know a comic that's got five hours, unless you're talking maybe Leno, but you know, do your act. But then you have to figure something else out. And that's where these hosting chops came in and yeah, you're like a surgeon on call. The moment the bell stops, then I start talking to the audience and then they're ready to go again. Could be right in the middle of a joke, you're telling, it doesn't matter, I'm here to serve. And they would do, again, for those uninitiated, maybe 15 scenes in a sitcom of 50 pages, 60 pages. They'll do each scene two or three or four times. The actors want another shot at the scene. Maybe they've got another joke laid in, or maybe they want another angle. And each time they do it, that audience has to be geared up, not only reminded, Hey, where were we? Right. And sometimes literally reminded because a lens went down and we have a 30 minute stop between scenes seven and eight. Yeah, that's happened. So you keep them entertained. And it's actually, I think that was the greatest training for me anyway.Michael Jamin:It must've actually a really important job because as a TV writer, we want the audience to have, they need the energy. They got to keep giving it to the audience. And it's the warmups job to keep them engaged and not wanting to leave and get bored and zoned out. Well, I'mMichael Burger:Glad you said that becauseMichael Jamin:Oh, very important.Michael Burger:The writers will come to me and say, how's the audience tonight? Or if the show's not going well, they'll going, Hey, can't you do anything your fault? I'll certainly try sometimes it just wasn't that funny. Or the reverse is true. Right. I have a Dick Van Dyke story that is painful. He did a sitcom with his son called Van Dyken Company. And Walter Barnett produced and they brought me in. I had a nice reputation of being the warmup guy. So I came in and did the pilot and it's like taking candy from baby, I'm killing. And Walter Barnett walks up to the rail about three feet up audience, and without stopping, he says, just pull it back a little bit and then keeps walking. And a couple scenes later, more laughs, he goes Less. Just less. Okay. Now we're like five seeds in. And he pulls me up and he goes, stop telling jokes.I'll tell you why. Later. I went, oh my God. So now I'm just talking to the audience and I happen to get one guy in the audience that was a mortician. I go, what do you do for a living? Mortician big laugh. He looks at me, what are you doing? People are dying to get in. I go, well, it's not, he's doing it. At the end of the show. He goes, I got to let you go. Dick is not happy. Dick, Dick van Dyke's not happy. Yeah. Yeah. Show's just not coming together. He had hoped, and there's a lot of laughter when we're not shooting, so I'll keep you posted. So the next week they bring somebody else in and it's awful. So they bring me back. But he said, okay, you can come back, but you can't do the puppet bit and you can't do these three jokes. I had some killer bits that I know I could rely on. So I finished the six episodes I did when I did five of them. ButMichael Jamin:It, it's, it's actually, warmup is a pretty high paying job. It's a pretty desirable job.Michael Burger:It was crazy. I'd never seen that kind of money for one night. I'm not doing the clubs. I'm not on tour, and I'm not only in town. I'm getting union money. So now I'm getting my sag guard and I, but that's a union job. Then they tried try to take it away from usMichael Jamin:That that's a union. That's a union chop. IMichael Burger:Didn't know that. It was after I fought for it, it was then a bunch of us got together and went to the union and said, Hey, we're a pretty important part of this production. They agreed, actors stood up for us and spoke on our behalf, and we wound up getting union money, which is how I got vested. But I mean, don't think I'm speaking out of school. Warmups could range. Back in the day was 800 for the night and five or 6,000 a night was not uncommon at the end. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I know that for sure. And then,Michael Burger:So you knock out a couple of those a week and all of a sudden you're going, IMichael Jamin:I'm rich ShowMichael Burger:Business. Well, show business is great, but you're also not on camera. And you're thinking, I remember having shows on the air and then going back and doing warmup and candidly thinking kind of a step back. And a producer said to me, I wouldn't look at it that way. He said, do you like doing it? And I said, I love doing it. He goes, you're good at it. I said, well, okay. And he said, that carries a lot of weight. If people are going to see you work 'em, see you doing what you do. Well. And I kind of reframed that and got back into the warmup and wound up doing a little show with people that you probably, or one actress that was probably everyone's favorite or has been. And that was Betty White. Yeah, sure. And I came back and did Hot in Cleveland and did 135 episodes. I spent 135 Friday nights with Betty White.Michael Jamin:Yeah, she's lovely. Yeah. I worked with her on an animated show. She couldn't be, she was so lovely.Michael Burger:Sweet. Right? Yeah. And gives you everything you'd hope.Michael Jamin:Oh, for such a pro. I remember I've told this story, I was doing an animated show. So I was directing her and she was, I don't know, maybe 15 feet in front of me. I'm at a table, I got my script. I'm giving her notes and she's delivering. She's great. But after a take, I'd give her a note, can you try like this? Like that? And she was very pleasant. But after a few sec or a minutes, she stops and she goes, I'm sorry, dear, but you're going to have to yell. My hearing isn't as good as it used to be. And I said, if you think I'm yelling at Betty White, you're out of your fucking mind. And she just lost it. She loved that. She was so far, I mean, she's like, she was so sweet whenMichael Burger:You would see her on the set, the room changed. Everybody was aware. It was like the Pope walked in and the little ad libs that she would throw off to the side, which having done 135 of 'em, I realized she had a lot to go to. But the first time I heard a couple of these, for instance, cameras rolling, awkward pause. Betty looks up and goes, if no one's saying anything, it's probably my turn. Yeah, that kills. Director goes, we have to go back. Betty goes, how far the pilot? So she got about 50 of these ready to go. And there was a scene where they, once a season, they would pair the girls up, Wendy Mallick, Jane leaves, Valerie Tonelli. They're all single as Betty was. So they would have a date show where all the women got paired up and the girls paired each other up with dates. So they picked Carl Reiner as Betty's love interest. And there's a scene where she and Carl KissAnd crowd goes Nuts. And then we stop. And Carl's 15 feet from me. And I had worked, interviewed Carl on Mike and Maddie. In fact, I, Carl, I let had him cut my tie, which is an old Johnny Carson thing I'll get back to in a minute. But I said, Hey Carl, you just kissed Betty. What was that like? And he goes, without missing a beat. Oh, it was unbelievable. She has her original teeth and all and her, she goes all of her own teeth and her original tongue recess. That right at 90 without missing a beat. And you saw these two connecting, right? As the old guards of the business,Michael Jamin:Some legends. But how did you get that first warmup job? I mean, walking into that is not, is hard.Michael Burger:It was. Or even gettingMichael Jamin:The opportunity to do it as hard.Michael Burger:Yeah, I go back to the cruise ship. I was doing warmup on the ship and a producer for Jeopardy was on who worked for Merck Griffin, and they were doing this dance show. And she goes, can you get me a tape? Then by that time I had, and so the very first warmup I did was Dance Fever. And one of the celebrity judges, it was Christopher Hewitt, who said to me on a break, oh dear Ladd, you should come do our show. And I did, did that show for seven years.Michael Jamin:Wow.Michael Burger:And then that kind of mushroomed into other warmupsMichael Jamin:Because you've had a really unconventional path into Hollywood, I would think.Michael Burger:Yeah, yeah. But my sights were set early on. I saw that Carson did a game show and then a talk show. And I went, well, that works for me. So lemme see if I can get a game show. Let's see if I can get a talk show. And I've accomplished those. IMichael Jamin:Certainly, but you were never a weatherman.Michael Burger:No, I never, I never, what happened? Do I look the part,Michael Jamin:Was that a slam? It's a quietMichael Burger:Slam.Michael Jamin:Letterman was a Well, weather. He was, yeah. I mean, seems like that's another, as long as you're in front of the camera, I'd think. Well,Michael Burger:In the LA market, you couldn't get past Fritz Coleman.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Michael Burger:Right. Did that for 40 years who also did standup. And I never wanted to do that. And the opportunity to act had come up a number of times. And with all humility, I just said, no, I don't think I would be good enough. I knew what I liked. I knew I liked talking to people, basically.Michael Jamin:But you've done some actingMichael Burger:And I figured I'd just stay in my lane.Michael Jamin:But you've done acting. I know you have, in an episode that I wrote, you're an episode, episode of Lowes and Clark.Michael Burger:Yeah. I don't, that's not on the resume. I just don't, those got handed to you because you were on the air doing something else. Right. I got to present at the Emmy's because we were on the air, and Maddy and I handed Oprah, her Emmy award, and we're going down the elevator with Oprah, and she's singing our theme song. And turns out she was a fan of the show, kind of, yeah. Was our godmother. Because when Mike and Maddie went across the country, we aired in Chicago after her. So she was on at nine, we were on at 10:00 AM and we were an instant hit because we followed Oprah. And so much so that Oprah became a fan of the show and invited us to everything. I went to the Oscars with Oprah. I sat at dinner at Spago with Oprah. I mean, she, now, were there any call guests? No, she does not call now.Michael Jamin:Were there any, because you had a lot of great guests on Mike and Matt there. Anything that you in touch with that you kind of became friends with?Michael Burger:Yeah, George Hamilton, Robert Wagner. Robert Wagner is about as cool as anybody gets. Yeah. And he asked me to mc the charity event that he was doing. It was a Jimmy Stewart Relay race. It was a celebrity race in Griffith Park. I said, I'd be happy to. And he goes, do you want to play golf? And I went, well, I don't. I can play hack around, but he's like a member at Bel Air. And I said, well, yeah, maybe that would be nice. And I'm just pushing him off. I didn't want to embarrass myself. So the next year I do the event again. And he goes, are you still playing golf? And I went, yeah. And he goes, are we going to play? And I went, he goes, do I have to send a car for you? And I went, no. RJ is what he wanted to be called. I said, I just didn't feel like I could play right when I first met him, this is So Robert Wagner, I, I'm standing there with a buddy of mine and I see him coming, and we have to go to the stage and he comes up and he takes his arm and he puts it through mine and goes, Michael, walk with me. I mean, so old school, right, Michael?Michael Jamin:Right,Michael Burger:Gloria, my friend. I'm good. Thank you. Rj. Yeah. They were idols. I got a chance to meet. God, I met President Carter, had retired, but I got to do Habitat humanity with him and sit down and build a house and talk to him about life. And every musician you ever heard of. How about the artist? Jewel made her first appearance on Mike and Mad. We put her on there. I did notMichael Jamin:Know that. I remember James Brown. I remember walking past James Brown.Michael Burger:James the Sure. Leanne Rime made her first appearance with us.Michael Jamin:Really? Well, I mean, I wasn't there for that, or I don't know. Yeah. That's so funny. Wow. So that's amazing.Michael Burger:Yeah. James Brown do. So you were there for James?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Burger:And he sat down and he said something, and that wound up on entertainment tonight. That night he said, the music is funded by drug money.Michael Jamin:EverybodyMichael Burger:Went, did he just say that? And all of a sudden, now we're hard news reporters. We felt like, I don't know. I don't Charlie Rose or something. We got a scoop.Michael Jamin:I don't remember that. WeMichael Burger:Just stumbledMichael Jamin:Into it. And then what was it like? Just rolling? I mean, I know you had must have talking points on when you're interviewing guests, butMichael Burger:Oh boy, you, you're so right. A celebrity gets interviewed the night before, and then they have bullet points. And the next day you kind of spit out those questions so they could comment on what they were pre-interviewed about. But in conversation, sometimes things go another way. But as you know, the producer's job is to keep you the host on track. And we had God bless her, Kathy Paulino, Kathy, I think her name was.Michael Jamin:Yes. Yes. Is that her name?Michael Burger:IMichael Jamin:Don't remember. I Kathy interview. Yeah.Michael Burger:She, I interviewed Robert Gole the night before, and she had this list of questions, and she's just behind camera with this, and she's doing this, and I see her, and I'm ignoring her because something better is happening. And we get to the, and she goes, Michael, you did not ask any of those questions. What happened? What's wrong? And I said, did you hear what Robert Gullet was saying? She goes, no. Well, I said, the interview took a path down a different road. He had mentioned his father, and I noticed he'd paused almost if he was going to tear up. And I thought, there's something more to explore there. And I said, what about your dad? And he said, on his deathbed, his dad said, Robert, come here. And Robert comes in, and he goes, son, you're meant to sing. Go do that. Well, I mean, I got chill.I got tills hearing that. Now, that was not on the cards. It was following the arc of a conversation. And sometimes these producers feel, maybe they're not doing their job. We didn't ask those questions, but interviewing people is really about a conversation. So we had those moments where we went off the card and I think made some friends there, had some great, some great interviews. I'm very proud of. Patty LaBelle sat down with us and admitted that her three sisters had all died of cancer. And she wasn't sure she was going to see 50. And she starts to tear up and we're going, she goes, I must like you guys, we're six minutes in. Yeah. Talk shows. You get six minutes, seven minutes, maybe two segments, maybe 15 minutes. And I think we did some nice work and met some people in a very finite amount of time.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljammin.com/watchlist.I remember those morning meetings. We talk about the show, and I remember sitting in the back, because I'm young, it's my first real writing job, and they call me a producer because that way they wouldn't have to pay me writer's skill. So they said, you're a producer. But I'm like, I'm not a producer. I can write stuff. But I remember thinking, how does everyone here know what to do? I really had no idea was I was in awe of the whole thing. How does everyone here know what to do?Michael Burger:But as the more you hung around, it kind of demystifies itself after a while, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. But there was also, and to some degree, yes, but it was also like you only get one shot. It wasn't like you get to rehearse. It was like, you better get this right. We're on live tv. We're not live, but we're on TV and live detect. Yeah. We're not doing again. We're not doing it again. SoMichael Burger:Yeah, that was, if you concentrated on that, it would paralyze you. What I found starting to do this was that how in the world can we talk to somebody for six minutes and get anything out of it that seems too short? Yes. And you learn to ask. There's a great quote by Blaze Pascal, he's a French philosopher, and the quote is, if I had more time, I would've written a shorter letter.Michael Jamin:Right?Michael Burger:And it talks about the science of the art of being brief. Then you learn that in the talk show world where you need to be concise and you take away all the stuff in the same way. Jerry Seinfeld would take out a word that doesn't work in a joke. A good interview is become very, there's no Sophie's choice there. You know, start cutting things away, not going to make it. And you stick with what works at that moment. So you be, become careful, you be good editors of yourself as you interview. But I found how it was so, it was so phe and so I compared it to cotton candy. You would do it, and it was gone. And then the next day we had to do it all over again. Yes.Michael Jamin:Right, right. Yeah.Michael Burger:The sheer volume Yes. Of cranking out an hour a day for two years was mind boggling to me. But yeah, I didn't have to do it myself. I had help.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And IMichael Burger:Had to show up refreshed,Michael Jamin:The minute recorded. I remember thinking all the producers, well, you're screwed. You got to do this. You're done. All that work you did is over now, and you have to do more. I mean, yeah, it doesn't end.Michael Burger:And we went live to tape. We wouldn't stop unless there was something drastic happening. And once in a while, we would tape two shows on a Thursday so we could travel on a Friday to go to another town and maybe do something live there. Unlike the show I did with Christina Ferrari, which was two hour, two hours live a day there. There's no stopping. I mean, what goes wrong? You see? Which was a whole nother level of fun because,Michael Jamin:But there's aMichael Burger:Too late,Michael Jamin:There's an art though, to getting people to be vulnerable. Like you're saying on television right now, you have six minutes, and then sometimes you'll see it where an interviewer, just like they're reading the questions, they're just waiting to get the next question. They're not really in it.Michael Burger:True. Were you there for Charlie Shaneen?Michael Jamin:I probably would'veMichael Burger:Remembered. Charlie comes on and he's nervous, and he's sitting there and he's looking around. I go, what's wrong, Charlie? Because I don't know, no one's given me anything to say. So what do you need? A cup of coffee would be nice. So I went over, we had a big set. We had a working kitchen. So I got him a cup of coffee, and we sat down and go, anything else? He goes, well, cream would be nice. I went back and got him.Michael Jamin:Great.Michael Burger:That was such a fun interview because he really was authentic and he really was nervous. And we just played it where you had some other guests that were, shall we say, just a little more controlled and didn't want to open up. And they were there to promote something. That's what a talk show does, is we promote you doing whatever you're doing.Michael Jamin:And what were you thinking when you're like, oh, I'm just tanking here. This isMichael Burger:Going with No, the opposite. Oh no, I'm thinking, let's do more of this now. I felt, oh, now we're doing Letterman. Now we're doing a talk show where things are off the rails and there's nothing, and the big camera has to whip out of the way. No one had planned that. I lived those moments where something went wrong, butMichael Jamin:When someone wasn't comfortable on care. What about that? Well, whereMichael Burger:It wasn't scripted, heavily scripted, where you would get something that wasn't planned. No, that'sMichael Jamin:Fine. I mean, when a guest is clearly not engaging, they're just, they're struggling.Michael Burger:Well, you'd see the producer going, let's jump ahead. JumpMichael Jamin:Ahead to, what do IMichael Burger:Jump to? Well, we could tighten it up and then the next guest can go longer. We had a little bit of an accordion, you know, find a way a to get in there somehow, some way. But they're not all, some are better talk show guests than others.Michael Jamin:AndMichael Burger:Some come in, we had, comedians had Richard Jenny on who I went to his dressing room and I go, what do you need? And he gave me five setups, hotdog, car, couch, whatever it was. So he knew all the jokes he'd go to when you just laid 'em in there.Michael Jamin:Would you write those down or on a card, or you just No,Michael Burger:That kind of stuff was just, yeah, they certainly had 'em on a card. But when we got a comic on, I really felt, oh my God, I got to kick up my game here because this is really what I want to be. I mean, this is, I idolize you, you men and women that had come on.Michael Jamin:There really is. SoMichael Burger:Carl Reiner comes on, and there's a very famous episode of The Tonight Show where Carl Reiner comes on and says to Johnny, I never make the best of the Tonight Show. I never make it. And he goes, I, I'd like to be part of those eclipse at the end of the year. And cars going like, okay. And he goes, you're a great dresser. Johnny goes, oh, thank you. And he goes, stand up if you don't mind. And he goes, okay. So Carson's standing up and he's looking at his tie, and he goes, the tie's not right, however, and he pulls out a pair of scissors and he cuts off Johnny's tie. Right. Johnny didn't know it. Fred Decoda had said to Johnny, Hey, just don't wear your best clothes tonight. That's all I'm missing. SayMichael Jamin:God.Michael Burger:So he cuts the tie rightAt the end of our interview with Carl, I said, Hey, there's a moment you had with Carson and I would just be thrilled if we could recreate this. And he doesn't know where I'm, he doesn't know where I'm going with this. I said, there was a moment where you cut Johnny's tie. And he goes, yes, I remember that. And I said, can I? And he goes, oh, no, no, no. My wife gave me. And I went, no, no, I don't want to cut your tie. Right. Would you cut my, he goes, I'd love to cut your tie. And he stands up and makes a production and cuts my tie. Right. And I have that tie cut with an autograph framed in my office. Wow. Wow. It was my moment of, I mean, those are the big moments, right. Meeting your idols. Yeah. Like Jonathan Winters, I assume people listening know Johnny. Remember Johnny the greatest improv artist ever? And Robin Williams was a fan of his. Yep. So I get to do warmup on a sitcom called Davis Rules. Remember that? With Bonnie Hunt? No. Yeah. How do he won an Emmy for that? Okay. Jonathan Winters did. So Jonathan Winters, Bonnie Hunt, the kid Giovanni.Michael Jamin:Yep. Wow.Michael Burger:So they would have a script, John enters kitchen.dot pop on couch because he, yeah. Whatcha going to do with this maniac? So he would start, he'd go off roars of laughter, but he, Jonathan loved audience. So he comes up to me, maybe we're a half hour in, I'd never met Jonathan Winters. And he walks by the rail and without stopping, says to me, Bing, how's your golf swing? And he keeps going. And as he's about eight feet away, I go, Bing, how's your golf swing? And he goes, whoa, whoa, whoa. And he does Bing Crosby. Well, at the end of the show, I go up and say, Hey, I can't believe you're even here, and I can't believe I got to meet you. And he goes, Hey. He goes, that was fun. He goes, I love doing that kind of stuff. He goes, anytime you want to throw me something, let's do it.So this is taking a pitch from Kershaw. This is the best of the best, the best. So the next week it's a sitcom, the format, it's going to be a four hour night, it's going to be stops and starts. And Jonathan is just sitting there like a little kid waiting to play. He does it, the acting he can do in his sleep, but it's the improv that he loves. So I'd catch his eye and go, excuse me. Yeah. Did you not invent lettuce? Is that you? Yes. I invented lettuce. God, for 10 minutes. That happened for a year and a half. So I got to play with him for, I don't know what it was, 52 episodes.Michael Jamin:Wow.Michael Burger:That's meeting your idols and being even more impressed than you could possibly imagine.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But how gracious of him, I mean, that's veryMichael Burger:Much fun. But that's him, him, he loved the audience. And Bonnie Hunt was so great at navigating him back to the script without even seeing it. But the show was funniest when it was off the rails because Jonathan Giovanni eei, the actor would look at him and he had a line, and then there'd be this pause and they'd going, Giovanni, that's your line. He goes, where? What's my line? Because it's so far past what was written in the script. What'sMichael Jamin:My line?Michael Burger:Yeah. Because Johnny had taken it out to the parking lot and then made a left down Ventura. Yeah.Michael Jamin:That's so funny. SoMichael Burger:Those warmup days I loved. And when I got out of it and then got a chance to come back into it, my ego aside that I'm not on the camera, I'm behind it. Well,Michael Jamin:Let's talk. I end up working that though. I mean about that must have been difficult for you, but I don't know. You did it anyway.Michael Burger:Well, it, yeah, it took about 10 minutes to get over myself, and then I'm standing in front of an audience, getting a laugh, and I went, wow, this is pretty cool. Right.Michael Jamin:But did it, I mean, that'sMichael Burger:Felt right back in the mix. That'sMichael Jamin:The Hollywood rollercoaster. I mean, you're up, you're down. You're up and down. I mean,Michael Burger:Yeah, I naively thought one pilot, I'm on my way. I've got a TV show. That very first thing I did for N B C didn't get picked up. And I went, oh, that, that's show bz. Yeah. I, that's the up and low. That's you thought. Right. So you learn to discipline yourself and be grateful for what comes your way, which I think I've done. And I also wound up with some side hustles along the way, flipping homes. And I got my real estate license and did that stuff on the side. Right. Not thinking I'd ever want to, boy, here's something revealing.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Michael Burger:It's probably five years ago, Catholic church. Sunday morning, I'm sitting there and there's a woman in front of me with her husband. The husband looked like he had been beaten down. What's the old joke? Where they've taken the spine out? He's just been beaten so many years by being to this woman. She's eight o'clock black dress Pearls, Mrs. Kravitz from Bewi. Does that help you? This is who I'm dealing with and looking around. And she owns the room and it's church. So the priest says, halfway through, turn to the person next to you or behind you and say, peace be with you. So I'm right behind her. So she turns and goes, what happened to you? And turns around, excuse me, what happened to you? Yeah. You used to be on tv, turn around. This is mess. Listen to Padre there. She couldn't fathom the fact that I wasn't on the air and wanted to know how my life not seeing me on Mike and Maddie anymore. And I said, no, I, I'm, I'm fine. Okay. Things are good. Just turn around. But she needed, I didn't have the time to deep dive into the complexities and the ups and downs of this business inMichael Jamin:Church. But did it hurt though when she said that?Michael Burger:No, I actually thought it was wildly funny because I've told this story now for 20 years or five years. Yeah. But yeah, no, I loved being on the air and certainly miss it. The skillset set is still there. I think it's gotten better. You learn, hosting is cumulative. Everything you do adds one more layer. But I've certainly made peace with it and understand the business that, I mean, I've got a wonderful life because of all the ups and downs. Right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. One of the things that people say to me, because I post a lot on social media, and they go, well, you seem so humble. I'm like, because I've been in the business for 25 years. That's why, I mean, do you not, you're every step of the way you're getting humbled. IMichael Burger:Mean, how about, is there any bitterness in your journey?Michael Jamin:Not really, because I never really thought I was going to get this far.Michael Burger:Oh, that's interesting.Michael Jamin:I thought it was never my goal to my, it never my goal to have my own show and my own Norman Lee Empire. I just wanted to be as aMichael Burger:Writer, showrunner producer, you mean?Michael Jamin:Yeah. No, I just wanted to write on TV show. I wanted to write on cheers, to be honest. AndMichael Burger:OhMichael Jamin:Wow. But when I broke into the business, cheers. It was already well done. But I wound up writing with many writers from who wrote on Cheers. And I wound up shooting a show that was shot on the cheer sound stage. And so in my mind, I made it like it. But certainly,Michael Burger:Well, what demons do you have as a writer? Or what holds you back as a writer, whether you're working or not, and is it amplified when you're not working?Michael Jamin:It's easy to look at other people. Here's what it is. I had a friend I was writing on King of the Hill and one of the other writers signed a big deal or something, and I was very jealous. And my brother friend, he was older on King of the Hill, and he said, he gave me a great piece of advice. He said, there will always be someone younger than you, less talented than you, making more money than you. Oh. I go, well, there it is. That, there it is. And that really, I hung onto that for a long time. I feel like. Okay, so it's easy to compare your career to somebody else, but to honest. I'm so far, I'm so lucky that I have what I have. So I'm not bitter at, because youMichael Burger:Got this far, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. But it hasn't taken away the desire to do this again and work more, or be where someone else is at this moment?Michael Jamin:No, I'm happy. As long as I get to keep working, I'm happy. I really am. Yeah, and it's really, it's funny when you're talking about doing warmup for these multi-camera shows, there are no multi-camera shows anymore. It's true. If you wanted that job today, good luck getting it. There are no shows. So how do you get that?Michael Burger:Good luck in a couple of ways. I have a friend of mine, you probably know Ron Pearson.Michael Jamin:Yeah, Ron, what about him? Ron'sMichael Burger:One of the best out there, hands down, a great comic and a great warmup. But he said the stuff he was doing 3, 4, 5 years ago in front of an audience, he couldn't do nowMichael Jamin:ReallyMichael Burger:The sensitivities of what you can and cannot say. BecauseMichael Jamin:He was prettyMichael Burger:In front of a crowd.Michael Jamin:He was pretty wholesome. I remember I worked with him.Michael Burger:Very wholesome. It's just some things you can't say. I got another buddy of mine, Ross Schaeffer, who was a corporate keynote speaker who says, even in the corporate world, there's some things you can't say. There was some reference to women speak more than men on a daily basis. They, there's more of verbose. Right. Because I was told by the person hiring me, well, I wouldn't say that he was using it as a way women really control the marketplace. A woman will decide what you're ultimately going to buy that flat screen TV you got in your house. Yeah. You got that because your wife said it's okay. Right. But that's actually sensitive to say now.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Michael Burger:Well, didn't even occur to me.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Michael Burger:Here's what some show is up for me. And this happened here in Long Beach, a great little restaurant in Belmont Shore on Thursday nights. They had a jazz piano player. It's this little French cafe and then go in for a bite to eat, and this guy's playing in the corner and there's maybe in a restaurant that seats 80, there's probably seven. And he would play and it'd be nothing. So I'd give him a little something, something, right. We're all performers and you're feeling for this guy, and I know when a song ends. So I gave him a little more and he takes this break and he comes over and sits next to me and he goes, Hey, thanks for trying to make that happen. I said, of course. He said, buy you a drink. Sure. And we get to talk and he goes, lemme tell you my favorite story about supporting another actor or performer. He goes, I'm working a club down in LA and it's the same thing. Nobody's there. It's quiet. And I finish, I don't know, I'm 30, 40 minutes in and I finish a song and I hear, and he looks up to finally thank this one person that's acknowledging his talent. And it was a woman taking a cigarette out of a pack.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. Oh myMichael Burger:God. Try to get the the tobacco into the filter. Yeah. He goes, boy, that if that isn't showbiz rightMichael Jamin:There. Yeah. That is Show biz, just what youMichael Burger:Think. You made it at any level, you're going to get humbled one moreMichael Jamin:Time. Time you're going to get humbled. Right.Michael Burger:Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a humility is a great trait anyway, I think. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Michael Burger:As an interviewer, as a host, as anything, anybody in the business, gratitude and humility will serve you a long way, I think. Yeah,Michael Jamin:Right. Yeah. You got to enjoy the ride. And I was told that over and over, enjoy the ride. I didn't really quite what it meant. Yeah. But then whenMichael Burger:We did Match game, match game 98, and we shot at CCB ss, we shot on the same set that they do. The price is right. They just turned it around for us. And I would go in early and I'd leave late and I'd drive in and I'd see that c b s sign lit up and I said, I don't want to leave, and I know this is going to be over. I know it's over because we're airing against Oprah at 3:00 PM on C B Ss. That's why I know it's over. And we did our 135 and it went away. But I never for a moment, took that for granted. I loved every second of that knowing, Hey, you know what? You could worry about it being over, but ultimately, hey, like you said, just enjoy this ride. I had my best friend did the warmup on it. It was the announcer in the warmup, and we laughed ourselves silly, and we shot seven a day. Game shows you shoot a bunch. So we would shoot four, take a lunch break and do three, did 135 episodes.Michael Jamin:Have you seen that movie Babylon yet with Brad Pitt?Michael Burger:I couldn't get through it.Michael Jamin:Oh really? OhMichael Burger:Yeah, about 20 minutes down. I went, yeah, no.Michael Jamin:Oh, you might want to revisit it. I love it. Oh yeah, it was about that. It was about knowing when your time is over and it was so, it was so crushing. I thought it was beautiful. But yeah, I could see, yeah, you need to stick with it a little bit, but I love that.Michael Burger:Where do you think you are in the arc of your career?Michael Jamin:I think, well, I mean, think all of us. I think you hit a certain age in Hollywood, and if I haven't already approached it, I'm getting very close.Michael Burger:It's funny, when you leave your demo, you have a birthday and you leave your demo.Michael Jamin:There was an article, this is a couple, this is many years ago, probably 10 or 15 years ago, and I was my partner and we were taking over for a show. We're running a show. It was Michael Eisner's show, and there's an article in the trades and in a variety, whatever, and it said veteran TV writers, Michael Jamon, Steve Clare, and it was an article about us. And then I go, wow, I become a veteran. And then, oh wow. One of the writers sitting next to me, he goes, that's not a good sign. It means your career's coming toMichael Burger:An edge. Yeah. Veteran was not a compliment. He'sMichael Jamin:Not a compliment.Michael Burger:I remember sitting, I had just turned 40 and I was sitting in an office with an executive at Tele Pictures, I believe it was, and I was sitting there with my agent, Richard Lawrence, who has since retired. I've outlasted my agent. That's not good. And this woman who's in charge of production says, look, Michael, I know who you are and we're fans, but here's the thing. Oh boy. She goes, we're going to hire the person that looks like the person we want watching us. Yeah. I went, well, okay, that can be a lot of things, but I can't be an 18 year old woman. Right. Yeah. Whatever the demo was, they were searching. So that stuck with me that there are things, there are times things you just can't change. I fit a certain demo and a seasoned host would be the category. And if that comes back then great. There's a show coming up this fall where they're bringing back the Bachelor, but it's called the Golden Bachelor. Have you heard about this? No. So it's the Bachelor produced by the same people, but it's for 60 and up. So the contestants will be 60 and up,Michael Jamin:Right.Michael Burger:Called the Golden Bachelor. Right Now the thought is, well, maybe people will value a more seasoned looking picture there, and maybe the host will come along with that. I don't know.Michael Jamin:So what do you know? Probably not. It's going to be hosted by a 20 year old.Michael Burger:It's going to, no, it's going to be hosted by the same guy that's doing the younger version. So I think they're getting it both ways. Right. They're going to get a younger host and an older demo. That's fine. You know, Saja stepping down with Wheel of Fortune that there's a lot of talk about who might slip in there. And that ranges from his daughter. Pat Sajak has a daughter that could certainly do it. Vanna could do it. Ryan Seacrest is, there's talk. Yeah, Whoopi said she wants it. Oh wow. Tom Bergson's name has been tossed around. Right. Mine's been tossed around, but it's tossing it. I'm tossing the name around.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Hey, what about this guy?Michael Burger:I did Wheel of Fortune in Vegas. Harry Friedman, who produced it, right, came up with a live version of Wheel of Fortune. So back in 2000, we went to the M G M, they took over the lounge, which used to be Catch a Rising Star renamed at the Wheel of Fortune lounge, and you got a chance to come in. Oh wow. And play Wheel of Fortune and win prizes. Catch and prizes. So it was just like the TV show, but it was not airing, but it was live. Right. What made the show so fun is that unlike the TV show where you're screened for intelligence and the ability to play the game, this is a bingo ball that's pulled, and now you're on stage. So we have three contestants that could be, well, you name it. In this case, it was a woman who'd had a little bit, a guy who didn't speak the language, and it was as wild and as funny as you'd hoped it would be, because they didn't understand the concept and the letters, and some did didn't. We had this poor gal had the puzzle almost revealed, and the answer was cassette deck. And every letter was turned. Everything was revealed except the C. And she's staring at it and she goes a set deck. And the woman next to her goes cassette deck, you idiot turned her.Which you'd never see on tv, right?Michael Jamin:No.Michael Burger:Oh my God. Gosh, that was fun. We did a half a year of that right now. We did three shows a day for six months.Michael Jamin:And so it's the, it's interesting. Yeah. So it's about, I don't know. Ye

This week, Emmy nominated Writer/Producer Jonathan Fener, (American Dad!, iCarly, The Mindy Project, and many more) is on the podcast discussing the importance of having access to industry professionals, getting his footing in the industry, and working in the multi-cam world.Show NotesJonathan Fener on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0271779/Jonathan Fener on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jfenskiMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:I always say, you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistants because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. So, yeah, those are the ones. You gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I have a wonderful guest today. This is a, this is a, I'm gonna tell you the story, how, how we met. So, as you know, the Writers Guild of America's on Strike, and my next guest is a well-known Setcom writer, although we've never worked together over the years. So our paths, you know, we haven't really crossed, but we know all the same people. And then we started, we were on the picket line outside of CBS Radford, and we started chatting and we had a really nice talk. And I was like, well, this, I gotta bring this guy in the podcast. So everyone, if you're driving your car, please pull over, put your hands together. A warm round of applause for Mr. Jonathan Fener. He is, let me just give you some of his credits before I let him talk.You'll notice it's a 45 minute podcast, and I, I do talking for about 44 minutes of it, but I'm gonna talk about your credits. He, he wrote on Bette, the Bette Midler show, Veronica's Closet, do-Over Kid, notorious. It's all relative Method. And Red Father of the Pride, you remember that one with Siegfried and Wright the 78th Annual Academy Awards. I wanna talk about that. American Dad. We know that happy endings, old Soul telenovela, the Mindy Project. How come that wasn't a show? Why was that? Just a project. Trolls Holiday, Elliot to Vegas, American Housewife, trolls, holiday in Harmony. We'll talk about that. And most recently, the iCarly reboot as well as well Mullaney. But guys, this guy's been around the block. John, thank you so much for being on the show.Jonathan Fener:My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thank.Michael Jamin:So, I wanna find out, I wanna know all about your, your history. Let's take it back from the beginning when your great grandparents met. Let's really do a deep dive into your life. ,Jonathan Fener:Eastern Europe.Michael Jamin:Eastern Europe. Let's justJonathan Fener:Do, yeah, let's go back to Eastern Europe.Michael Jamin:But tell me were you, were okay, so how did you first break into the business and did you always know you wanted to be a, a, a setcom writer?Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I, I, even when I didn't know that's what I wanted to do, I, I look back and I'm like, oh, that's what I wanted to do. You know, I, I feel like I'm part of a, a generation that you know, back to watching television shows, videotaping, you know, Saturday Night Live and Uhhuh and sitcoms and, and like I used to audiotape them toMichael Jamin:StudyJonathan Fener:Them and watch. Yeah. And, and, and like, I would, I would watch Saturday Night Live, even when I was old. It wasn't old enough to like watch it. I would tape it on the VCR that we had, the, the one that popped up Yeah. At the top. And then and then I would have an, and then in the morning I'd watch it all day. And I would, and, and I used to make mixtapes, I guess video mixtapes where I would like, like mix and match different sketches that I liked. And then I and I used to listen to those all the time. And then I would also, I'd watch television shows. I did do that thing where I, I would tape television shows and then I would try and like write out the script. I didn't, I didn't know what the formatting was, so I always was interested in Yes, you'dMichael Jamin:Write it, what kind of word for word? Or you'd write your own,Jonathan Fener:I'd write it word for word. I would transcribe.Michael Jamin:Because that made you a writer then. Did you think that was, what was the point of that?Jonathan Fener:Well,Michael Jamin:,Jonathan Fener:It's like this this, this is gonna sound douchey maybe, but I remember reading this quote, I, I, I think Hunters Thompson once said that he used to just type pages of the Great Gatsby, just to feel oh, what it was like to really, to write those words. Yeah. and so you can draw a direct line between me and Hunter s Thompson and The Great Gatsby. Yeah. And, you know, the Bette Midler show. Like, they're basically one to one.Michael Jamin:But then, and Okay, go on. So then, then as a kid, you,Jonathan Fener:Well, I always was a, I was a huge comedy fan. I was a huge movie, television, e everything fan, standup comedy. I loved standup comedy. Right. So was always too afraid to do it. But yeah, I mean, I always knew I wanted to be part of making that comedy, you know, television, movies, all that stuff. So I went to Fast Forward, I went to usc. I, I I didn't go to the film school, but I, I just was, just wanted to be in la Oh. And I guess sort of the way sort of goes, you, you get outta school and, and I, I knew a guy that I went to school with who worked at a talent agency, and he got me a job as a messenger when they were still inMichael Jamin:Existence as a messenger. And so you were driving around town delivering envelopes.Jonathan Fener:That sounds terrible. Thomas Guide. WithMichael Jamin:Your ThomasJonathan Fener:Guide, right? No yeah. In the heat and the traffic. And howMichael Jamin:Long did you do that for?Jonathan Fener:I was probably a messenger for about, I don't know, matter of months, maybe like 3, 4, 5 months. And then a desk opens up and then you're, you're answering phones, so, oh, soMichael Jamin:You didn't have to go to the mail room, you went from Messenger toJonathan Fener:It really wasn't a mail room. I, it was a very small town agency. Okay. It, it was called the Herb Schechter Company. Sure. I dunno if you ever No, I've heard. And it was like back in the day where, you know, he mostly represented like TV writers. They had a whole below the line department. It was a small agency and they didn't really have a male. One boutique. Yeah. Boutique. Boutique. They had a lot of like, guys that were like supervising producers on Magnum, stuff likeMichael Jamin:That. But that's a good, but then, so how long, cuz you know, I was a, I was an assistant at William Morris for three days. I got fired on my second day and I go, but I stuck out the week. I finished the week . So I, I applaud you for being like, it's just a hard job being an assistant for an agent, because I found it was,Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was an assistant for a lot of different people. I was, I, and it, I think it helped that it was kind of, I, I don't know if low, I guess low stakes, cuz it wasn't like, I wasn't at caa. I wasn't at, you know, William Morris. I was at this tiny little agency and this woman I worked for was, you know, she represented like stunt coordinators and, and oh, like that. So not that, look, I still had to do the like, rolling calls thing and all thatMichael Jamin:Stuff. But did you, but did that, did that give you context? Like what did that, what what, what was your takeaway from doing that job for howeverJonathan Fener:Long? Honestly, a lot of the jobs I had until I was a writer were, it taught me what I didn't want to do. Yes. I'm like, oh, I work for an agent. I don't wanna be an agent. Right. And then there's like a network of assistances mm-hmm. where, you know, there was another agent there, this really nice woman named Deborah Lee. I still remember her. She she called me in one day. She's like, what do you want to do? What are you doing? I'm like, I don't know. You know, I mean, I, I think I wanna write, but, you know, may maybe I wanna be a creative exec. I just, I wasn't sure. Okay. So she was like, well, I have a friend who works at Fox and they need an assistant. So, you know, if you wanna get outta here and go work there.And I was like, great. So I went to go work for this other woman and then I just met, I would just meet assistants and they would offer me other jobs. I worked for this guy. My biggest assistant job was I worked for this guy John Matian, who was the president of Fox Network. Mm-Hmm. . So that was the first time where I saw an entire television season from pitches, development scripts and shooting all the way through. Right. Cause I was on his desk and I read every script that came across his desk that was like, I don't know if you remember that guy, or even like, that was the year, that was like in the early mid nineties when they were like, maybe gonna try and do like friends. Like they had this show called Partners and Ned and Stacy andMichael Jamin:Ned and Stacy. Yep.Jonathan Fener:It was becoming a little bit more of like, let's try and make a, a friends clone. So like the XFiles was happening then, right? It was just like, it was, I had one year where I had an entire overview of television and I'm like, and then I would read the scripts and I'm like, I think I can, I I can do this. I can. SoMichael Jamin:Did who, where did you learn to write then? What do you, what was the next step?Jonathan Fener:I just figured it out. I mean, I think that what happened was I met my partner who was my friend Josh by Cell. And we were buddies. And he was at UCLA in screenwriting school actually. Okay. And he was actually writing with his dad. He, him and his dad were writing a script together. It was, it was very, and I was, we would just talk about stuff. And, and then, so the story is that we had another friend who was a PA on this show called The Single Guy. Yep. Remember that show with Jonathan Silverman? Yes.Michael Jamin:Jonathan Silverman. Yep.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. The Brad Hall show. And we, he used to bring home scripts every week and we would read them and we were like, I can't remember, one of us pitched an idea, but funny if they did an episode, whatever, like in real time of whatever. And then we're like, we should write it. Let's just write it. We know how to do it. We should just write it. So we sat down and wrote this script and it was, I thought it was pretty good. And , we, we, and, and again, the assistant network was we knew somebody who was an assistant to Richard Whites at the time. Yeah. Who was a young guy. AndMichael Jamin:And young agent. He was I c m probably, right?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and it was just one of these things where like, after a while I was assistant for three, four years and I had access cuz all the young people that I was working with were now becoming executives or agents. Yeah. So there were people you could actually hand your script to. They would read it as opposed to just throwing it in a pile. Right. And the, the, the long and the short of it was Richard read the script because Brad was a client of his, and I remember he called me at my house and he was like, your friend Mallory gave me your script. I think it's funny and I think that you need to write something else because no one will read a single guy. He's like, I only read it because I represent Brad, but no one will read. He's like, you have to write friends, you have to write Seinfeld, you have to write news, radio, whatever. So Right. That, that was kind of the first thing where we were like, Hey, we can maybe do this. Let's doMichael Jamin:This. That's interesting because this is what I say. Cuz people always sit and they're like, well, do I have to move to Hollywood to break into Hollywood? It's like, well, this is how you do it. You get these jobs, you know, you become an assistant and you network or you get on the network and then that's how you make connections. So that's what you did. I do. I wonder, do you think the assistant network is still strong now? I mean, so everything's changing so much.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. You know, it's a good question. You know, it's like, that's the age old question. Like, how do you break in? And, you know, I feel for years now that like, maybe that's not the way it's done anymore. May maybe I'm just looking at like, stuff as like an older guy where like I look at people and I go, I don't know. Can't you make your own television show on your phone? Or something like, I, but you know, you, you still need some kind of access, I think. And maybe I don't even, maybe I don't, I can't wrap my mind around it a little bit. But like, it just seems like if you do, if you write something, if you make something, someone's gotta watch it. Someone's gotta see it. Mm-Hmm. that can make a decision for you or, or help you. Right. And that's about, that's about that relationships.Michael Jamin:But then how did, so what was your next step? How did you get on staff?Jonathan Fener:We wrote a bunch of specs and we had some friends that were becoming agents. A guy that I, I, I was, I was an assistant with a guy who became an agent and he was a paradigm. We, we kind of, we worked with him for a little bit, but it was, we, cuz like we were friends and like, when things don't go so well sometimes mm-hmm. , it's like it's messing up the relationship. So I think we just were able to get, look, we, we, we, anybody that would read our script, that was a, that was a young agent, we would somehow try and get to them. And everybody passed. One guy at I C m mm-hmm. was signed us. I mean, I, I remember very clearly getting a phone call. I, I, you know, my partner and I, Josh, our birthdays are a week apart. We really were like, you know, we were friends, we were, you know, we, it was like intertwined lives. But we were having like a joint birthday party mm-hmm. . And we got a phone call that, you know, they wanted to sign us. And that was a big, big fuckingMichael Jamin:Deal. And, and what, and they submitted you to which show? What was the first show then?Jonathan Fener:Well, this is funny how things work too. So his one big connection was this woman shit. Her name was Debbie. This is Embarra. I, that's okay. She, she ran Bry, Kaufman Crane. She was like their development person.Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Fener:And I feel bad that I don't remember her name cuz she was sweet. And, but that was a good relationship that he had. Mm-Hmm. . So they submitted us for Veronica's Closet. Right. The, it, it was, it had done a year. It did. Well, you know, Christie alley's back to TV and it was, I mean, it was Thursday night. Yeah. Nbc I mean, it was a huge, huge show. AndMichael Jamin:Let's take it back for a second. That used to be a big time slot. Thursday night, n b slate, nbc. Now I don't even know what now. I don't know what they, what they're doing there, but maybe some, it's reality. It's soJonathan Fener:Fire, something fire.Michael Jamin:Is it some dump Dumpster fire? But that's the one. So, but it's, so, but this is something else that you bring up which I think is really interesting. Like, people always say you're kissing, I always say you're kissing the wrong asses. Kiss the asses of assistant because they're not go, you know, they don't get their asses kissed. They didn't, they love it. I mean, who wouldn't get, give 'em some attention. They get abused all the time, then they rise up eventually. Yeah. So those are the ones you gotta be nice to the assistants always, you know,Jonathan Fener:Oh, yeah. Christmas, you know, send them, get the, get the gift card, do the thing. Yeah. I mean, you know, they'll put your call through. I mean, look, I mean, they can do only so much, but yeah, it was, it's just, again, everybody, even if it's the same trajectory, everybody's story is a little bit different, you know? Yeah. And you know, it, it was, I think we were, I think we were lucky, but it was also, it was a, it was, you know, I, I hate to sound like I'm a thousand years old, but it was a very different time. Yeah. And, you know, staffing was like, almost were all seemed like so many opportunities. And it was just like, it almost seemed like, it wasn't like, you know, if I'm gonna get staffed, it was sort of like, where am I gonna get staffed? And, and but, but you know, you sweated out and I never felt like that. I mean, and for every, we, we, I don't think, you know, look, I, I think we were good and, and, but and still are. But you know, I never felt like we were juggling offers . Yeah. You know, it was definitely like, you know, okay, we got this gig and, and you know,Michael Jamin:Yeah. People don't, people don't realize that as well. Like, once you're in, it's great. It, that first job is hard, but you're, then you always gotta worry. You gotta worry about your next job. None of it's, you know, if people think well, you know, it is like you must have it made, but you don't, you never have it made. You're always hustling.Jonathan Fener:Never.Michael Jamin:What did you feel your first season as a staff writer? Did you feel comfortable? Did you feel like, oh, and over your head?Jonathan Fener:Honestly, no. I, I, I can say that with confidence. I felt like I got there and I was like, yeah, this is what I should be doing. Oh, you said I'm not just Yeah. You know, look, we were the youngest guys that, you know, we were the staff writers. Right. The baby writers. It was a very challenging place to work. I mean, you know, Bry, Kaufman Crane, you know, look, we, I could, we could do an entire podcast on just working on b Brianca's Closet and just literally being down the hall from season five of friends. It's like the Beatles. Yes. They, they, their, their dressing room is down the hall. And I'm, you know, with Jerry the Pacemakers or something. Not that, not that. That's, that's a great reference, by the way, for all your younger,Michael Jamin:I don't, I don't know. Listener. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:Just some, but it was like, and the show was, you know, it, it was what it was. It was funny. There were tons of funny people on that show, people I still talk to, to this day. Honestly, but it was like the, the culture of that. And I think it, it's a, it's, it's not a news story in sitcoms. But, you know, we worked, we watched the Sun come up all the time, and it was really, that was my first step. It was like, I had never done it before, but I was like, I knew immediately. I'm like, this is not the way it, this is not the way it should be. Right.Michael Jamin:Was it cause stories were being tossed out? Or notes from the network or what?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, it, it was poor, poor management.Michael Jamin:Oh, time management. It wasJonathan Fener:Poor time management. You know, I would say like, you know, you're, when you work on a, on a show with terrible hours, you're just like, you're a victim of somebody else's badMichael Jamin:Work. Well, there's, there's that. Yeah. Yeah. I always felt very when we were running a show, I was like, I always felt I would crack the whip just because I felt like I want people to go home. I want stop messing around. And, and I was a hard ass in that way. Cause I wanna go home and I think you wanna go home too, don't you? You know, like, let's just work and go home.Jonathan Fener:Those are the ones, the ones that don't want to go home. Those are theMichael Jamin:Worst. Yeah. Those are the worst. Right. Did you, were you on many shows like that, where you felt like a hostage ?Jonathan Fener:No. well, let me think. Not really. That was the worst. And then there were a couple other shows that were rough, but I think that, like, as time went on, I definitely got lucky as time went on that I, I worked for de Decent people.Michael Jamin:Well, you also had another show that was basically the stepchild, which was American Dad compared to Family Guy. I mean, family Guy. Was this behemoth, not that American Dead was any slouch, but you were still in the shadow of a, a family guy, right?Jonathan Fener:That's right. The other one. Yeah. Yeah. The other show. Which, but that Yeah. And that, that was good point. No, but it was, it was and animation was something that I, you know, we got into pretty early on too. And I really, really liked that. And you know, there, there's animation usually is not terrible because the deadlines are, are way far apart. Yeah. Like, as far as like, you know, like Multicam is probably the worst because it literally, you gotta rewrite itMichael Jamin:Tonight at four, at four o'clock you start your day basically. Yeah. AfterJonathan Fener:The run Yeah. Run through is it ruins your whole night. And then it's like someone has, like, if you're doing single camera, you know it, you're usually reading a script for the next week. So, you know, you want to get it done by tonight, but, you know, maybe you can leave a couple of jokes and then the next day you can like, sort of clean it up. Right. But like Multicam, they're, they're at rehearsal at 9:00 AM so they need a script.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. And that was your joint. You were on the Warner Brothers slot. All right. So then, so then what happened? You, I'm gonna, I'm going with your credits over here. So Veronica's closet. And then what about, what was, you were there for, well, how many, well, how many seasons was that? The show was what? Two seasons?Jonathan Fener:They did? Th they three. I was on the last two.Michael Jamin:The last two. And then when it was done, what happened?Jonathan Fener:When it was done, I was like, I, I did it. I, you know, no, I, I was like we, we just got back out in the staffing pool, you know?Michael Jamin:Right. And then you just jumped.Jonathan Fener:We, we, yeah, that was the next, the next season we went to, we got on the Bette Midler show, which at the time was like massive. It was massive. ThatMichael Jamin:Was massive. And then,Jonathan Fener:And that's another, I'm sorry to interrupt. I was gonna say, like, that's an interesting story where, you know, I don't know if you think of 2 26 year old guys as like, yeah, we gotta get those guys on the Bette Midler show. Mm-Hmm. . But our agent submitted us, and at the time we were even thinking to ourselves like, what, what samples can we write that are a little different? So we wrote a Buffy, the Empire Slayer Script, just cuz like, we liked the show and Right. The tone. And so we wrote that and then, and I think we were like, maybe we can look and see about, you know, maybe getting on like an hour or something like that. And then the, it just so happens that Jos Whedon, I think worked for the guy that created that show, Fette.Michael Jamin:So I was gonna say, I wanted to say Cohan and Nik, but no, that, I don't think that's right. Who created it?Jonathan Fener:Jeffrey Lane.Michael Jamin:Jeffrey Lane, of course. Right,Jonathan Fener:Right. Who was a big mad about you, dude.Michael Jamin:Yes. And then, then working for Bette. I mean, that's, that's a whole other thing. You have this oversized star, really a giant star. And she must have had a lot of creative input.Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah. You know, she had opinions, but no, she was it was, it was nuts. I mean, you know, they picked that show up for a full season, which even, even then wasn't a thing. And she, she just was like, like such a massive force, you know? Yeah. Almost too big for television. I would even say, like, I remember thinking, she's on the stage and I'm like, and I mean the sound stage. Like I can see her playing Caesars just live or in the movies where she's gigantic. But there's also, there's, there's, I don't know if muting is the right word, but you know what I mean, like, like, there's just something about those mediums that like, sort of, and, and I just think on tv she just was like, massive. Just like, but, but, you know, really funny. And, you know, she did everything. You know, she sang the Rose and she, it was like, pulled out all the stops. It was just, it was almost like, and I don't think she knew what being on a television show entailed. I think when you take people that have never worked on TV and put them on tv, they're like, I have to come back again tomorrow. And Yeah. Tomorrow. And it's a new script today. And like, they're used to shooting films, but even like, it, it's, it's a grind for everybody. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:SoMichael Jamin:She, she became a little cantankerous. You think ?Jonathan Fener:She, I think, yeah. No, she, she, she, you know, she liked me. she liked me and my partner. We, we wrote this episode actually with Kobe Bryant in it.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay.Jonathan Fener:And I think they were like, get the young guys to write this. And Kobe was, and he agreed to do the show. I think his wife was a huge Bette Midler fan. He, I think he said, I mean, he was nice guy. I remember meeting him and the show, I mean, think about this. We shot the sh we shot our episode in the forum. Like, and, and the, the, the plot of the show is that, that becomes like, she basically accidentally gets onto the court and she starts dancing with the Laker girls. IMichael Jamin:Don't know, but it was a multi happened. It was a Multicam, right?Jonathan Fener:Yeah. But they just, they shot it on the forum, I mean, on form. They, and it was, it was the kind of thing where it was like, whatever it cost, it cost,Michael Jamin:Right.Jonathan Fener:They booked the forum and, and that episode sort of turned out okay. And then I think she felt like, oh, these guys get the show. So they took us out, she took us out to lunch, and she's like, what should, what should the show be? You guys see that? OhMichael Jamin:No. Oh no. And you guys are, you guys are story editors at this point. Right. See, that would be panicked about that. That's not good.Jonathan Fener:Co Cohen was at that lunch too.Michael Jamin:Oh, she took Rob. See, that's the thing. She lovedJonathan Fener:Rob, loved Rob.Michael Jamin:My, my rule of thumb early in my career is don't let the actors know your name cuz only bad things can come of it. . And then, and then, right. So she takes you and now you're, maybe you don't wanna talk about this, but I, that puts you in a difficult position because she should be taking the showrunner and the showrunner should be bouncing you. She should be bouncing the ideas and not, you know,Jonathan Fener:You know. Yeah. It was a Yeah, it was. I mean, I didn't know. We were just like, well, you know, just more do more of this stuff. Right, right. You know, we'll, you know, go to a baseball game. Or, I, I just think she, I, I, look, I think that she was searching for what the show was. I think the showrunner was, I think they just were, and it was a, it was a weird, not a weird premise, but it was like, she, she played a character named Bette, and she played Aer that was a famous Hollywood actress and had been in a movie called The Rose and all these things that were true. Right. But she kept saying, I'm, but I'm not Bette Midler.Michael Jamin:She would say that in the show, but I'm not Bette Midler. She would say, she would say that toJonathan Fener:Us. Oh, okay. Cause we would write jokes and she's like, but I'm not Bette Midler. And we're like, but you were in The Rose. And we're like, okay. Bette Schidler. You're bet. Schidler. Yeah. And, and, and a lot of stuff that happened to her in real life we would try and put into the show. But it was like, it was just one of those things where we were just trying to find our footing and, and, and never really found it.Michael Jamin:Wow. But that's pretty cool though. I mean, hanging out with Bette Midler's pretty cool. SheJonathan Fener:Was something else, man. She was like a, like I said, like a force, like just funny and, and just larger than life. AndMichael Jamin:You know, but we were, we didn't just shoot me. And and George Siegel, of course, in the seventies, there was no bigger actor than George Siegel. And he wasJonathan Fener:Huge. Yeah. Funny.Michael Jamin:And then c just shoot me. And we wrote an episode and he, George could not have been a sweeter guy, such a nice guy and great sense of humor. But there was one episode he, I guess he wasn't happy with what he was playing. Maybe he didn't have enough lines, or maybe he thought his storyline was dumb or whatever. . But I remember he, we were all the writer's rehearsal. And George goes, you know, I was nominated for an Emmy. I'm sorry. He was, you don't have nominated for an Oscar. You know that. Right. And one of the writers goes, yeah, that was a long time ago. George. Get in the dunk tank. . And George thought that was so funny. I mean, he like, to his credit, he just laughed. He thought it was great. .Jonathan Fener:That's so funny.Michael Jamin:That's what's fun about working with some of these, you know, some, some of these old timers are great, some of them are, you know, a little di difficult. Who knows. All right. So then what, at what point did you guys start developing your own shows? Cause that's always a big leap.Jonathan Fener:You know, we, we were kind of like wanting to do that early. And I remember that was another thing that was not encouraged. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Not then itJonathan Fener:Wasn't at all. It was just sort of like, it was the tail end of it, but it was kind of just like, here's the model. Get on staff. Mm-Hmm. work your way up to producer, supervising producer, get a deal. Mm-Hmm. and then you develop. Right. So that was the, that was the the road. But we were like, no, we have some ideas. And you know, if they don't wanna listen to us at, at nbc, then maybe they'll listen to us at mtv. So we had heard that MTV was looking to develop shows. Cheap show. I mean, it's like that thing every, like couple of years. MTV's like, we wanna do scripted. And then they would hardly ever do it, but Right. We had this idea that we would do cuz they wanted to repurpose videos, but somehow do it in a scripted way.So we had this idea that we would do like Dream on, but with music videos. So it was about a kid whose interior monologue was music videos instead of old movies. Right, right. And like, just seemed it was like risky business, but the kid is 16 and he's just that. So we sold that. We actually sold that and wrote it and it never got shot. But that was like, pretty early. That was like a couple years in. And we sold a movie. Like, we were kind of like trying a bunch of stuff. But I think that we early on were like, I feel like we should do our own stuff too. Uhhuh . So I always have said like, like, like I don't, I don't know what it's like to have just like one job. I always feel like I was doing two things at once. So like, eventually if people are always like, they're on staff, like I was always on staff. And then on the weekends I was working on the other thing.Michael Jamin:You see, people don't understand how exhausting that is cuz you're on staff, you're working very long days and then on the weekends you're working more. You know, it's, it's, it's good for you when you're, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:It was hard. And I think it was the right look. I wasn't, I was, I was, I was married, but I didn't have any kids and mm-hmm. , you know, but it's, it was tough, man. I mean, you know, and, and that was back before you, we were zooming. So like, we would go, I'd go to Josh's house, he'd come to my house, Uhhuh, . I mean, we used to literally meet in the middle and trade.Michael Jamin:Oh. Cause you guys, you guys let, did you live far apart from each other?Jonathan Fener:Yeah, yeah. We, we, we, yeah. UsuallyMichael Jamin:Trade far discs. So I'm, I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but, but I'm curious to know, well first of all, I wanna know how, what was the academy, how did you work on the Academy Awards? How did that come about? That's such an odd term for you thatJonathan Fener:Yeah, that was, that was the connection. There was, that was the year John Stewart hosted, I don't know if that was his first time. I know he did a bunch of times. It was the year of crash crash one. Okay. The best picture. And like Philip er Hoffman one for Capote, but John was Right. Was hosting and he brought out like a bunch of daily show people. And my partner went to college with a guy, Ben Carlin. Yes. Who I kind of became friends with too, because of those guys. So, so Ben was running the Daily Show. He was one of the eps. And so when he came out, he called me and Josh and a couple of other guys and asked if we wanted to be part of the staff of people. Basically they, the, the Daily Show guys wrote the monologue. They asked us the la guys to write like short film parodies of the nominees.Right. So, and then, you know, maybe help out with the, and and, and on on show night we would be part of the joke room cuz they're writing jokes throughout the night. With like, I mean, Bruce Lance was there mm-hmm. and some local school guys were, were there. But so yeah. So we basically pitched like 20 little short filmed things and they picked five or six of 'em and then we got to produce them and, and, and all that. But we were part of that whole thing. That sounds fun. Yeah, it was really fun. It was really, really fun. And like on show night, we literally, they put us down in this basement and we are like watching the show live and it was like instant messaging. If whatever, who, if somebody won something, we would like shoot a bunch of jokes up to them and the wings. ButMichael Jamin:Did you have to wear a tuxedo to do that? Yes. In my mind. You, I knew it in my mind, you have to wear a tuxedo even though you're not gonna be on camera, but you're at the Oscars. Wow. They tell you thatJonathan Fener:Because Yeah. Be because we were, I mean, it was really cool. I mean, we got, went, went to, you know, my, my wife and, and Josh's wife and, and all the wives got to go to the show. Right. They got tickets to the show. We were downstairs and then afterwards we went to the governor's ball. Right. I mean, it was really, I mean, we had access.Michael Jamin:That's a trip.Jonathan Fener:That's, it was, that didn't get a gift back. I was really hoping I'd get like a, because I always, I'm like, there's like a trip to Australia in there or something, but I,Michael Jamin:But you got a nice, you got a nice paycheck that's got that kind of counts for something.Jonathan Fener:I don't remember how much we got paid. I don't know if it was, I, I feel like, I don't knowMichael Jamin:Now what about it was great. What about the Mindy Project? Cuz that was like a big, that must have been a big experience for you.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was fun. And, and that when we were, we had a deal at Universal mm-hmm. . And we had, we, we were kind of lucky. Like we, that was when I worked on the Malaney show and Right. We did a lot of development when we were there and we supervised and ran a couple of shows there. But that was sort of towards the end where they just asked us to come and help out.Michael Jamin:Okay.Jonathan Fener:Oh, for a season. Yeah. And it was it was like, it it is one of those things though, where it was a very tight, well-oiled machine and we, and it was, it was fine. It, it was, it was kind of funny though cuz it was like, you, this sort of happens where, you know, you, you write pilots, you shoot pilots, you run shows, but then sometimes you're a staff guy again. Yeah. And that was a gig where we were sort of like, alright, we're part of this staff. And, and everybody there was like, really funny, really smart. Like, I think, I think that writer's room literally had like three former Lampoon editors, Uhhuh and just like really, really funny smart guys. Right. And women. And we just were like, okay, we're just pitching jokes.Michael Jamin:You're, oh, okay. And then so that, that's, that's the whole experience. But did Mindy run the show? Was she the showrunner at,Jonathan Fener:I mean, she, I she, she had, there was a guy named Matt War Burton, who was sort of running the room mm-hmm. When she was gone. Because the most impressive thing was that she, she shot all day. Yes. Because it was seeing the camera show. She was the star of the show. But she came in at lunch, Uhhuh . And Matt would pitch her and she very efficiently was like, I love this. I love this. What if this happens? What if this happens? Gotta go. And so she, she had the final say. Right. But she was busy, you know. Yeah. And, and that, I I'm trying to think Melany was that way too, but Melany was really part of the writing and that was also a Multicam. So,Michael Jamin:And that was probably, it's, that Melany show was probably three years too soon. Like, you know, like before he really became huge.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. That was, you know, I, I think that, that, this was my opinion and I'm not like making this up. And I remember we used to talk, like John was trying, I feel like John was trying to do something where, you know, everyone just looked at it and at face value and said, oh, it's Seinfeld. He's just doing Seinfeld. But Uhhuh, I think he really, really liked the, the medium. He liked multi-cam, but there was a part of it that I think was a little bit satirical. Mm-Hmm. . But it really, I, I think that if you didn't know that you're just like, oh, he's just, is just a, you know, like I feel like some of the stories that he pitched he felt were funny because it's like, oh, this is kind of a clammy story. But I, but I think it's funny in like, I'm doing it with a wink. Right. But I think people maybe saw it and said, there'sMichael Jamin:No wink. I don'tJonathan Fener:See the wink. Yeah. There's no, yeah. And, and, you know, but it, it was, it's not that it was the wrong vehicle because it was his show. And, and, and he is the funniest guy in the room always, you know? Right. I mean, and NA, see Petra was on the, was in the cast too. She was really funny. There was a great cast. Elliot Gould was on that show. Martin Short was on that show. Yeah. It was like, it was, it was, it was really, really fun. But yeah, maybe it was, I, I think maybe he was trying to like rein, not reinvent the multi-cam, but just like, turn it on 10 a little bit. Right. And it maybe wasn't, no one was like, ready for that.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamen. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Did you, cause whenever we developed for comics, we, you know, we wound up studying, then we read, we watched the act, we read, listened to their, whatever the audio books or, you know, read their, did you do the same as well forJonathan Fener:I just knew you mean for that show or for,Michael Jamin:Well, for Malaney or, or for any, any comic that you're writing for. Really. Or even like Bette, you know, for example,Jonathan Fener:Well, Bette, I mean, we definitely like combed through her career and her life and mm-hmm. tried to get stories from it. Mm-Hmm. yeah. Whenever, and, and, and, and, you know, the, the Mullany thing, we, we kind of like, we were also, that was a period of time where like, we were on that staff for a period of time, and then we had a pilot picked up and went to go shoot it. Oh. So we were sort of there for a, a specific period of time. But like, that show was all him to me. I mean, he ran that with a guy John Pollock, a good friend who who's also like, he, he's, he's such a good, he's a pro guy. He's a pro and, and can guide things. He's so funny and smart. But so I think that, that they really clicked well. And there were a lot of really funny people on that staff too. But yeah. Yeah. I, I think that to answer your question, it's always good, especially if you're dealing with somebody who's gonna put a little bit of their lives into it, to just mm-hmm. because I mean, frankly, you, you kind of want to like, connect with them too. Like, it's something that they can connect with. Right. Unless they don't wanna do it. Unless they wanna be completely a different person if they're being some version of themselves. Yeah.Michael Jamin:What's so odd is that you and I have never worked together, even though we've worked with so many of the same people, you know? Yeah. It seems, it seems like very odd that, you know, how how did that never happen? But how do you see, like, so okay, we are on strike. How do you see the business now? Like, what do you, like, what's your take on the past, I don't know, three to five years? You knowJonathan Fener:Everything's going great. It's great.Michael Jamin:Everything's perfect.Jonathan Fener: and just getting betterMichael Jamin:.Jonathan Fener:I, everybody knows what's going on. Yeah. no, I I think it, to me it feels like it's a massive sea change. Yeah. It really feels like even having lived through the first strike, like that was streaming was just kind of coming around and, you know, Netflix was a thing and, but now everything has completely been disrupted and mm-hmm. , I just think that I mean look, this is nothing new, but like, you know, to, to me, cable seemed to be working okay. And then streaming came in and it just seemed like there were no parameters. It's like all the streaming services come, came around. And I understood economically that like all the studios are gonna want to have their own thing mm-hmm. and not have to license it to anybody anymore. But without the structure of a, of a schedule, like a nightly schedule, it's just like, it just became a bottomless pit.Yeah. And so there was this five, you know, it, it was the, it was the old, it was the, the Wild West again. And there's a billion shows. And I, I, you know, some of these studios I guess were just like, wait, this is so expensive. Like a full staff for every show and we're making so many shows. We need to, now, now it's like we overspent now we need to back up a little bit. And then, but in the meantime, to me, I just felt like it was, like the rules got changed where there was a somewhat of a model in network television and even cable where it's like, we're gonna pick this show up for X number of episodes. We're gonna have this many people on staff. That's the way it's done. Mm-Hmm. . And then now the, it's like, oh, we have this new area of streaming. We're just gonna do things differently. Now we're gonna hire three people. Mm-Hmm. , or the guy that created the show is just gonna write 'em all and then shoot 'em all. And it, it just, I don't, it's, it's, you know, I mean, all I can know, all I can do is keep doing what I do, but it's, you know, it seems more, it, it really seems, it feels like the ground underneath us is that much more Yeah. Shaky. Really shaky.Michael Jamin:How do you, and what's your take? I don't know if you work a lot with, well you know, young, well, let's see. I actually, I have two questions I wanna ask you cuz your last, your last network show was probably was what The Mindy Project? Cause I haven't worked, I haven't worked in the network for a while. It's all been cable. Right.Jonathan Fener:The last network show I worked on was American HousewifeMichael Jamin:Oh. American House. So it's so interesting. Which wasn't even that long ago. And so you're working with young, there's bigger staffs on network. You're, they're bringing in younger writers. What's it like? What, what are the kids like? Do you think they're different these days on network shows?Michael Jamin:Because we had a hierarchy. We had, there was a pattern. There was a, you know, all broken.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I think it's probably better. I mean, I worked, I worked in some rough rooms and then I worked in some more, you know, I certainly, I don't feel like I ran a rough room. What do you mean?Michael Jamin:What do you mean by rough room? What were they like?Jonathan Fener:Just a, that the, the real hierarchy. Like when I was a staff writer, you were not really expected to talk very much. Right. It was kind of like sit and listen. Right. But and then I'd say I'd, I'd pitch something and they'd be like, not now. And I'd say, I'm sorry. And they'd say, don't be sorry. Just be quiet.Michael Jamin:. Don't be sorry. Don't let happenJonathan Fener:Again. Don't be sorry. Just be quiet. I, I, and like, look, that's the, that's the, it was always done with a joke. You know what I mean? Right. And, and like, I don't ever feel like I was treated cruelly. Mm. I mean, I mean, I guess I, I guess it was cruel that, you know, I did feel like I was held hostage and, you know, yeah. Going home at 6 30, 7 o'clock in the morning in, in rush hour traffic the wrong way. Like yeah. My nights and days were mixed up. But like, eventually what I was gonna say was I just feel like there was something to earning it a little bit. You know, I, I just feel like, you know, even even those first jobs, like, especially like Bright Coffman Crane, I remember there were certain things that you, like, they were big on floor pitching Right.On, on, on, on show night. And that's great experience. I mean, look, multi cams aren't around as much as they used to be, but like, I remember learning a ton. Like, I, I can still shoot back to the time we were on show night and a joke bombed, and then you just huddle up mm-hmm. and you're just staring at each other and everyone's thinking, and you gotta come up with an alt. And people are pitching stuff and it's like, and you pitch a joke and everybody laughs and you're like, oh my God, you're theMichael Jamin:Hero.Jonathan Fener:Amazing. And then, yeah. And then, and then they put it in and itMichael Jamin:Dies and it, and it dies. Yeah. That's what a flip joke. People listen. That's what a floor pitch is. I'm showing that on a multicam, you at the last minute throw a joke in after one bombs. SoJonathan Fener:Yeah. Right. And then you finally, you, you give up and you just pitch a joke with the word nipple in it. . And people laugh at that and you're like, ah, I hate myself. Yeah. But no, but, but I, I think that now, you know, ha like being the older guy and, and even, you know, running a show, like, there, there is a, there is a certain level of like, everybody has an equal voice mm-hmm. . And, which I think is good, you know, but I also think that there's, it's not that you are less than at all. To me it was always about like experience. Mm-Hmm. . Like, you, you just gotta, you know what it is, it's about, it's, there's, there's no substitute for being able to read the room. Yeah. And there are people sometimes that are younger and less experienced and they, they pitch an idea and no one says anything, which is like the night, it's, it's, you know, the worst is if someone says, that sucks. Right. But if you pitch a joke or a story and no one really like, jumps on it, no one Yes. Ands it, you know what, let it float away because Yeah. You know, and then if you re-pitch it and then you re-pitch it,Michael Jamin:You're gonna get yelled at, you'reJonathan Fener:Gonna get yelled at. Like, that's just not cool. And I feel like sometimes maybe people don't like that anymore. You know? Yeah. Like, you're not supposed to do.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I hear you. What, what? Surprised It's so hard. There's a huge learning curve on their job. And when someone pitches an idea, if it's a good idea, it really doesn't matter who it comes from, but it's pretty obvious when it's a good idea. The right. Like the, the senior writers are, oh, that's good. Right. And if you're new inexperienced, you just don't know what's, what's a good idea from a bad idea. And I think they sometimes get a little offended or hurt. It's no, it's, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's just the idea. It's not you, you know? Right. The idea didn't land.Jonathan Fener:Sometimes it's them. No. Sometimes it'sMichael Jamin:ThemJonathan Fener:. But yeah, it's, it best idea wins always, always, always. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Best idea. Gets you homework faster and so and so. Yeah. I know. Well, I was gonna ask you something else. Oh. Oh, that's, that's how I was gonna say we met, we met years ago. Cause you were running a show, which is an interesting thing that you did was said you were running a show called Awesome Town, but you were running it. Someone else with less experienced writer wrote it and you guys were brought on to supervisor it. Right,Jonathan Fener:Right, right.Michael Jamin:It was like, so talk about your experience doing that kind of stuff.Jonathan Fener:That was the first time we'd ever done that. We've, and we've done that a bunch just because I feel like my partner and I, that's not really something that a lot of people love to do, like run other people's shows. Everybody wants to, you know, get your own thing. And we were writing our own pilots at the time too. But if you get enough experience, honestly, you know, my feeling is you want to have as many skills as possible in this business because mm-hmm. , you know, you want to just have another arrow in your quiver.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:That's the right term. But like, so i, if you can successfully help someone just guide the ship and it's their show and they've never done it before, cuz that's a really hard job.Michael Jamin:Were there creative struggles though, between you and them at all when you do this?Jonathan Fener:No, honestly, no. I really feel like it was this guy, Adam Ste. Hillel, who's like super nice guy. He he's like big feature guy now. I think he wrote Black Adam. Mm-Hmm. , he like, works with the Rock a lot and, and he created Undateable with Bill Lawrence too. Mm-Hmm. . So he's, he's had a bunch of stuff. No, he's very nice guy. Very funny. And it was actually kind of cool that he got this job on, it was basically just about the, these four like early twenties friends and negotiating life afterwards and they threw a lot of stuff. It's funny, I remember they, they picked the show up because I feel like a, b C was looking to do something in the younger space. Right. But it did, it was one of those shows. It wasn't, it was very low concept. And there was a whole opening teaser that we, I I always suspected, this is why it got picked up cuz it was very, it was very American pie.It was like kind of dirty and there was like a couple and somebody had peanut butter on them and a dog was looking and Right. You can imagine. So but I remember thinking like, this is why they picked it up because this is outrageous. There's no way they ever shoot this though. Right. Which is like, that's like an age old story in tv. It's like the thing they love about it. Mm-Hmm. is the thing they cut first. It's exactly right. You know, it's like you, you, you pick up a show called like Immortal because the, the lead character ha has been alive for a thousand years. Uhhuh. And then the first note is, can we make him immortal please? Yes,Michael Jamin:That's exactly right.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. but, and you do it cuz you're like, oh, they just they just picked up the show. They just gave me a budget and Right. But so they, they made a bunch of changes to this show and including changing that entire teaser. But it was, it was just an opportunity that came because again, like I think we had written a pilot for the studio that made it and they needed somebody we, like, we had just gone through, you had a deal,Michael Jamin:You probably had a deal at the time, an overall deal. Right.Jonathan Fener:I don't know if we had it like, you know what we did, I think we had just sold a pilot to like 20th Uhhuh . And it was like a very good experience, but we just, it just was one of those shows that like almost got there but didn't Yeah. But then, then they picked up all their other shows and they're like, oh, we're gonna pick up this show with these guys. And we had a good relationship with the development people that like, you know, maybe John and Josh can help with that. So that was awesome. That was, that was like, and I remember like, we cast whoever we want. Like we changed roles because we found, like I'd never seen Brett Gelman before and he came in and was so funny. We're like, we're putting him in this show somehow. He was easily 10 years older than everybody. Well, was supposed to be a coworker, Uhhuh, , ally Wong came in, we're like, Uhhuh, let's create a intern. But it was like, it, it, it was like, it was the first it was a good gig to get. And then from there we, we got a bunch more of those gigs to sort ofMichael Jamin:Like, see, that's, that's a talent, because a lot of, I think sometimes when you have a no, a young creator will create a show. Then they assign a showrunner, and sometimes the showrunner's like, well, listen, my name's on this too, and I don't want this to have, I don't have a stink on me if this is terrible. So they kind of turn into what they want it to be. It doesn't sound like you did that. It sounds like you were very much trying to realize the vision of the person who created these shows, which is nice of you.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I mean, I don't, maybe that's just the way that we are. I mean, I just feel like that's the fir like, and I'm, look, by the way, that's probably a good way to get the gig, is to go have lunch with them and go, listen your show, man. We're just here to help you carry the water from here to there. Right. And we know how to do it. And but that it's the truth. I mean, honestly, I like, I don't want it to be bad, but like, you know, and like, I'll tell you what, I think I'll give you my opinion, but also like, again, I don't know anybody that could ever do that, show that job alone. Like, it's, it's miserable and not mis, you know what I mean? And we we owe, and plus, you know, you could relate to this too, just being, I mean, being on a writing staff is collaborative anyway, but being in a writing partnership, you just really learn how to negotiateMichael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. Jonathan Fener:Compromise. Mm-Hmm. and talking it out. And, you know, single writers tend to be really, you knowMichael Jamin:Yeah.Jonathan Fener:Hold onto their stuff cuz there's mm-hmm. Never any other counterpoints. So I feel like we have the right skillset forMichael Jamin:That. Yeah. There's also a sense of, there's so many decisions to be made. If I don't make this one decision, that's okay. I gotta make a million other decisions. So it's okay if I didn't, if I don't make this one decision, you know, there's a lot to do.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. I don't need to be in wardrobe. I always say that. I don't need to be, I don't need, I I you can do rack check. I don't need to do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. There's exactly, there's exactly, there's a ton. I, when we ran Marin, we, the the wardrobe people loved us cuz they chose us choices. And I go, what do you think, you know, well this one. And I said, well, why do you think that one, they gimme reason. I go, all right, sounds like you know what you're doing, . Sounds like you got a good idea there, so let's do what you say.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. I mean how, how many episodes did you do of Maryland?Michael Jamin:We did four seasons. I, I want, it was probably around 50. Cuz each show, each season was, I don't know, whatever, 12, 13 or something like that. Uhhuh . So, yeah. But that was I c and that was a pleasure because it was low budget. They just leave you alone. It was wonderful. So, yeah.Jonathan Fener:And I mean, did you finally that it was, was it hard to produce? Because I mean, how big was your staffMichael Jamin:The first season? So that was a show that was created by this guy Duncan Birmingham. We didn't create it, but he wrote the pilot. He was a young writer. He wrote the presentation and then with Mark, so that season, the first season when they picked it up, it was Mark Marin, who's very good writer, but had no writing experience for sitcoms. He's a, you know, standup, this guy Duncan Birmingham, who was a, a young guy who they just, they they could exploit. So he had no experience and it was me and my partner, and that was it. So we, the ones with any real sitcom experience. And then, but then as each season one, we picked up a couple more writers and then we rounded it out. But but it was a great, it was a wonderful experience, but the budget was tiny. The budget was, it was like nothing. It was nothing. Yeah. And we shot each episode in two and a half days, soJonathan Fener:Really?Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was, yeah. As long as someone's finger wasn't in front of the lens, we got it. , let's move it on. So yeah, that was, that was such a great experience. And, and, and no one remembers that. No one remembers, you know, like, hey, the show, it wasn't that perfectly lit. Yeah, that's okay. But people liked the writing. They like the acting. That's the important thing, you know. So what if the camera went like this a little bit ?Jonathan Fener:Right. my, yeah, my partner always was like, when you're like, he's like, they're doing laundry. They're paying their, they're paying their bills while they watch this. Like, they like the people. Oh,Michael Jamin:Oh, yeah.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. They're like, they're, they're, they're like, they're listening. They're half, you know, they're, they're not,Michael Jamin:Not even anymore. Now they're on their phones and watch. I mean, now they're really not watching the show. . He's Right. Cause like everyone, you know, Siebert, you say the same thing you'd say. Like Yeah, they're, they're reading People magazine, not any anymore. They're not, now they're on, they're watching the show and on TikTok and getting text messages, , they're not paying attention.Jonathan Fener:They're reading the live tweeting. Yeah. Of other people read, likeMichael Jamin:Watching the show for them, so. Right. It's an odd time, but yeah. So what do you s so what do, what excites you then going forward? What, as we, as we wrap it up, what is your, like what excites you now?Jonathan Fener:In entertainment?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Or just, yeah. As a, as a writer. Yeah.Jonathan Fener:I still, I mean, I like what I always liked, honestly. Like, I feel like right now I want to, the thing that I want to do is I, I want to try new things, but I also, I know this is like, but but, but, but also I feel like as I get older, like you have to, you have to always write what's sort of like, I don't know, is like personal to you. Like, I don't know, this is, because then it sort of seems inauthentic. Right? but having said that, like I think that I, I would really like to get back into animation mm-hmm. , I feel, I feel like I, I know it's like, I feel like features, like, like I feel like weirdly streaming has opened that up. Mm-Hmm. a little bit too, cuz like, you know, it's hard to get a movie out in the theaters. I mean, especially now. Yeah. it's not a Marvel thing or something like that. So like, there might be like avenues to go with with streaming movies and stuff like that. But like, I don't know. That's, I mean, it's, it's, it's, I I feel like I don't have any, a good answer to that question because I still really, like, I, I still feel like I always have ideas, Uhhuh, but and, and honestly like more often than not, like I'm looking to collaborate with more people. Yeah. Different people, you know, becauseMichael Jamin:Not necessarily on air talent, but writers as well.Jonathan Fener:Other writers. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like, you know, if you're lucky you have a long career and mm-hmm. a lot of different types of careers and, you know, my partner and I always said like we we've sort of had an open marriage a little because mm-hmm. , we started out together, we, and, you know, you work very closely with a writing partner and, and we worked together for many, many years and then we sort of split on staff for a while, and then we came back together mm-hmm. for a while, and then now we're separate again. ButMichael Jamin:Was that hard for you when you're writing after you split to start writing alone? Let's say even on staff, cuz this is the first Okay. You usually, you have somebody to bounce an idea off of. Now you're, you're on, you know, you're looking at that blank page by yourself.Jonathan Fener:Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. Mm-Hmm. , it's hard to be in that. It's, it's, it's definitely hard. And I feel like I'm getting better at like, sort of reaching out to mm-hmm. other writers and just sort of like, can you look at, because it's like my wife can't hear it anymore, you know? Yeah. Like, go walk into the kitchen. It's like, would this character say that? She's like, I don't know, like, what are you talking about? So I have to, I I I just feel like you have to, I guess you, you learn to sort of like mute your ego a little bit mm-hmm. and just sort of like, let o let other, like, sometimes you just have to talk it out and, and that's what a partner was for, you know. Yeah. but I don't even know if I answered your question. That'sMichael Jamin:Okay. We're just, we're we're chatting. What about, what about advice for aspiring writers? What do you, what do you tell them? Either about the craft or about the business?Jonathan Fener:I mean, to get in nowMichael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. .Jonathan Fener:I think that starting out the, the best thing about now to me mm-hmm. , is that it seemed like in the beginning when we started, it was really all about like, what's the speck of the big show.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. ,Jonathan Fener:Which there's a, there's an art to that, you know, beca

The John Grisham Cinematic Universe Begins, the first (and best) of several Cameron-less Terminators, the Minions are officially a franchise, Legally Blonde squanders its potential, Pauly Shore breaks out, Dreamworks abandons traditional animation, Larry Sanders speaks the unspeakable, and The Lone Ranger is the most pointless movie ever made. All that and more this week on Thirty Twenty Ten  

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 17th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on June 28th, 2023. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

Happened In the 90's hosted by Steve and Matt picks a day, any day, and then goes back in time to that magical decade we all know and love the 90's, to revisit episodes of tv, movies that premiered, or cultural events that occurred on that day in the 90's. This week Matt gives his 90s related review of The Flash and then the boys disect why all the Ben Affleck hate? They also have a special, unexpected musical guest Cat Cornell. After that it's time to request to be seated in the smoking section because we're talking all things June 22nd in the 90s. SEGMENT 1 Show: The Larry Sanders Show Episode: Montana (Season 3 | Episode 1) Premiere Date: 06/22/1994 Story: Arthur and Larry plot his return to the show. SEGMENT 2 Show: Duckman: private Dick/Family Man Episode: The Longest Weekend (Season 3 | Episode 18) Premiere Date: 06/22/1996 Story: In satire of nationalism, the Dutch Elm Street Association gets special favor for its block, spurring Duckman's North Phlegm Street to form it's own group, with Duckman as President. Despite Cornfed's peace-keeping efforts, an actual war breaks out between the two neighborhoods. Gilbert Gottfried guest voices as Art DeSalvo, Andrea Martin as Mayor Gallagher, and Judy Tenuta as Edna. Thanks for listening! Watch all new episode every Thursday here on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk5uXQXE9WGIWcpSkNkXaOg Audio available on all major platforms. Email Us At: hitnineties@gmail.com Instagram: HappenedInThe90s Twitter: HIThe90s Facebook: @HappenedInThe90s Website: https://happenedinthe90s.com MERCH LINK: https://www.redbubble.com/people/HIT90s/shop?asc=u&ref=account-nav-dropdown

The art of stand up comedy is discussed with Wendy Liebman who won the 1996 American Comedy Award for Female Comedian of the Year. She has appeared on THE TONIGHT SHOW, LARRY SANDERS, JIMMY KIMMEL, DAVID LETTERMAN, had her own Showtime specials, and was a semi-finalist on AMERICA'S GOT TALENT. More podcasts at WAVE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/artist/wave-podcast-network/1437831426See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 16th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on May 30th, 2023. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 15th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on April 27th, 2023. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

A short message meant to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action on improving their parenting game, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 14th Dad's Toolbelt, written and recorded by BUILD Performance Coach and Founder of the Disciplined Dads program Larry Sanders on March 30th, 2023. To request a Dad's Toolbelt in print or to learn more about coaching and training opportunities with BUILD, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

That's A CrimeEpisode 49: Man Kills Fishing Partner Over Fear Of Being Eaten By Bigfoot (2022)Jason Connell and Sal Rodriguez break down the true crime story of the Man Kills Fishing Partner Over Fear Of Being Eaten By Bigfoot in 2022. On July 9, 2022, 53-year-old Larry Sanders and 52-year-old Jimmy Knighten were fishing near Ada, OK, when an argument began over Sander's fear of being left alone in the wilderness to be eaten by Bigfoot. The confrontation ended with Sanders striking and strangling Knighten to death.Recorded: 03-16-23Studio: Just Curious Mediahttps://www.JustCuriousMedia.com/Listen: https://ThatsACrime.buzzsprout.com/Watch:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbw014MVA3wQM8INVVe0Obw/Follow:https://www.facebook.com/ThatsACrimePodcast/https://www.instagram.com/ThatsACrimePodcast/Hosts:https://www.instagram.com/MrJasonConnell/https://www.instagram.com/SalvadorLosAngeles/#justcuriousmedia #thatsacrime #mrjasonconnell #salvadorlosangeles #truecrime #misdemeanor #murder #mystery #suspense #thriller #horror #criminal #serialkiller #thief #suspect #victim #guilty #jail #prison #mankillsfishingpartner #beingeatenbybigfoot

A quick discussion between BUILD Performance Coaches Ben Rogers and Larry Sanders, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 13th Dad's Toolbelt, recorded on February 28th, 2023. Our hope as leaders is to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action to improve their parenting game. For business inquiries, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

Emmy Award winning writer John Riggi talks to the gang about Larry Sanders, Family Guy, and The Comeback. Alec turns 50 with the grace and dignity of Boss Baby.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hollywood Screenwriter Michael Jamin sits down with Phil Hudson to discuss questions asked by fans and future screenwriters. Questions such as, "Is there plagiarism among screenwriters? How do you prepare for a general meeting with a large production company with a development exec as a screenwriter? When you're a writer's assistant, should you ask for an episode, wait until one is offered, or send the showrunner a draft?"Autogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin (00:00):In terms of stealing ideas, often in a writer's room, someone will say, oh, they, I just saw that episode two weeks ago on whatever show. And then usually the writers will go, Ugh, we won't, we'll kill the idea. So that's not plagiarizing, that's coming up with the idea independently and then killing it because you don't want people to think you plagiarized. You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, welcome back. It's Michael Jamin. You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. I'm here with Phil a Hudson.Phil Hudson (00:33):What up,Michael Jamin (00:34):What up? And we're doing part two of the ask me anything if Phil has some more questions. These are designed for, what kind of questions are these called?Phil Hudson (00:41):Yeah. So ton of questions came in, so we're moving into professional questions. What I kind of grouped that way, aspirationalMichael Jamin (00:49):Part one, if you missed it, we're, if you missed it, that was questions about CRA or craft. Craft.Phil Hudson (00:54):Right. Craft.Michael Jamin (00:54):Yeah. And these are about questions about professional and what else?Phil Hudson (00:59):Aspirational questions. Aspirational, like breaking in and then some general stuff. So, yeah. All right. You ready for this?Michael Jamin (01:06):I'm ready.Phil Hudson (01:07):All right. Professional.Michael Jamin (01:09):Oh, and by the way, the way these people just, if you're new to the podcast, the way people ask these questions is on my social media profile on Instagram @michaeljaminwriter, every couple months we post a blue tile that says, ask me anything. And so if you have questions that I haven't answered, that's, that's where you do it. Put it up there and we'll talk about it.Phil Hudson (01:26):Yep. Awesome. Professional question number one from Give, give Shrimp a chance, which I think is probably one of the best Instagram ta names I've ever heard. I That's good. I will give them a chance actually, Michael, you're vegan, pescatarian, vegetarian. What are you, technicallyMichael Jamin (01:43):I say I'm a vegan, but I do eat fish from every once in a while for protein PEs, but I don't eat any, somePhil Hudson (01:47):PescatarianMichael Jamin (01:48):Then don't, I guess you could say that, but, cause I don't eat any dairy.Phil Hudson (01:51):Got it. Yeah. So you're vegetarians are vegetarian, pescatarians are vegetarians who eat fish. You're not that cuz you're vegan, but you eat fish. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Cool. Good question here. I thought, I thought it was interesting. When you are a writer's assistant, can you ask for an episode or wait until one is offered or draft possible story areas and send them to the showrunner just in case asking for a friend? Well,Michael Jamin (02:17):Good question. Well, you definitely wanna put in your time. You wouldn't, if you're, if you got promoted to writer's assistant, you don't want to, in season one start asking for an episode. You gotta earn the right to be there. So you gotta be there for a full year. And then it's, this is how I feel. And then after, once you're there for, you know, full year or two or whatever, then you can approach your boss and say, Hey, I'd love to be considered for a freelance episode. I'd love to be able to pitch you an idea. And you should have all these ideas on the ready. I mean, you're, you're there. So I don't, you can do, you can come up with ideas season one, but I I I kind of, you wanna make it so that they owe you so that the writer showrunner owes you one so that you're, you're loyal and you've put in the time this is the least they can do is to repay you by giving you an episode.Phil Hudson (03:02):There's also a very clear level of trust displayed if you come back for a second season. Right?Michael Jamin (03:07):Yeah. It means they like you. Yeah,Phil Hudson (03:08):Yeah. So that, so it means that they are looking at you for those opportunities are already considering you. I do. And this is, I, I apologize. I want to say we brought this up last year, so forgive me if this is a little redundant, but I do know that in screenwriting Twitter, there was some conversation about how sometimes you get staffed as a writer's assistant and then your show gets canceled and then you move to another show and you're a writer's assistant there, and then that show gets canceled and that's a process. And so there are people who have been writer's assistants for like five seasons and they may not have ever been on a show for two seasons. What about in a situation like that where you'reMichael Jamin (03:45):Sucks people Yeah. Sucks for you. I mean, it's just, what are you gonna do? That's just the, that's just the way it goes. Yeah. That, that requires luck. What are you gonna do?Phil Hudson (03:54):Okay, here, here's a political question in regard to this subject, which is I'm a writer's assistant below me, right? There's a writer's pa and above me there's a script coordinator. And the script coordinator wants to write freelance episodes probably as well.Michael Jamin (04:12):Yeah.Phil Hudson (04:12):How do you navigate that? Cuz you've got someone else, technically, in my opinion, this is just my experience, they have seniority over you cuz they've probably been working with them longer.Michael Jamin (04:23):The same thing. I mean the, but the bottom line is it's, it's very hard. But getting a freelance episode really isn't like, it's not like it's gonna make your life, it's going to make you feel good about yourself. You're gonna, it's gonna be a, a badge of honor. But after that freelance episode, you're, you're kind of back where you started from. You're still a writer's assistant. You still have to break in as a staff writer to get full-time employment. So, and, and often it's not uncommon for a writer's assistant to get their shot and kind of blow it. It's just not, they don't do a good enough job. It's, it's hard. And so you really wanna be ready you know, the pressure is on. I I get it. So, but that freelance episode is probably not gonna make your career. It's just gonna feel good. It's gonna feel good. And that will help. And that might get you by for, that might be enough to, you know, encourage you to keep at it for a couple more years, but it's not gonna set you up for life. So,Phil Hudson (05:23):So don't celebrate too early.Michael Jamin (05:27):I mean, or don't be crushed too early if you don't get one, in other words.Phil Hudson (05:30):Yeah. Gotcha. Alright, cool. Ivan g Garcia, oh, apologize guys, this is old my eyes. I'm getting old. Michael, my eyes. Mm-Hmm. Ivan Garcia 66 22. What are the basic things any screenwriter should know? I know it's a really broad, but I thought it was a really interesting conversation to have.Michael Jamin (05:51):Yeah, well, okay, first of all, do you know what a story is? And most people do not know how, what a, a story is, right? I mean, honestly,Phil Hudson (05:59):Let me interject there too. I had a class in college at a screen at a film school where I was taking a screenwriting class and the teacher asked us to define what a story is. And I knew, cuz you had given me your answer. And I sat around and looked at the room and no one, no one raised their hand. And a couple people said something and the teacher kind of brushed it off. And then I gave your answer to them and he just like had this aha moment. And he literally went and changed his slides to include your answer to this.Michael Jamin (06:26):Yeah. So the teacher that important, no,Phil Hudson (06:27):And you can get that free at michaeljamin.com/free. That's so the first lesson in Michael's course he gives away for free. Go get it. It is absolutely important.Michael Jamin (06:38):I like how, how are you gonna write a story if you can't define it? You know, and you think you know what a story is or, or it's such a weird question like in your gut, you, I must know what a story is, but honestly, if you can't define it, you might get lucky once or twice, but you're not gonna be do it on a consistent basis. You're just not. Yeah. So there's that and don't Yeah. And most people don't know. And including some screenwriting teachers don't, don't knowPhil Hudson (07:02):That .Michael Jamin (07:02):Yeah. So,Phil Hudson (07:03):Yeah, so story stories of us know and the definition of story. And if I recall from conversations with you from years back, you told me that that's something you often, when you get lost in a story, it's because you're missing one of those elements of story and you have to go putMichael Jamin (07:17):It back in. Absolutely. I I, we were, you know, I talked about this before, but when I was running my partner running Maron first season we did a, it was the first day of shooting and we did a rewrite on a scene and we, and, and then Mark was in the middle of the scene and he's like, what am I doing here? What am I supposed to be playing here? What's going on? And he starts yelling at me because the scene wasn't working. And, and he was right. The scene was not working. And it was because in the rewrite I had dropped or we had dropped one of the elements that we needed required. And he was right. The scene did not work. And so I had to go back and rethink and we, I i, we threw another line that fixed everything.(07:53):But yeah, it's like, it's that important. It like, the actors, without it, the actors are gonna be lost. The audience is gonna be lost. You're gonna be lost, you're gonna struggle when you write, you're gonna be like, what, what am I, why am I getting bored with my own piece? Which is so common that people get bored with their own writing, which is why they lose motivation, which is why they don't you know, they feel like the writing's all over the map, which is why like they do too much rewriting cuz they don't, they still don't know what's good. All this comes, I there's really no screenwriting 1 0 2. It's all screenwriting 1 0 1.Phil Hudson (08:26):No learnMichael Jamin (08:26):1 0 1.Phil Hudson (08:27):All right. So you need to know story.Michael Jamin (08:30):Yeah.Phil Hudson (08:31):Formatting comes to mind. But that can be done software, right? Yeah.Michael Jamin (08:35):Right. The least important thing.Phil Hudson (08:37):But that, that's a place people get so bogged down. And I know this was true for me. I probably spent a year reading books on formatting. They're on the shelf back here behind me of just, here's how you format this, here's how you do this, here's how you do that. What I've found now is that I've absorbed and simulated a lot that just from reading scripts, like right up here, that's printed scripts that have just printed off you, you learn how other writers, you like how they do things. But also you can literally just Google this as you go along. If you get stuck in there. Plenty of things that kind of explain it to you. So don't get too bogged down in formatting, but you have to know formatting cuz it is one of the things people are gonna look at and they'll judge right away whether or not you're a professional.Michael Jamin (09:19):Yeah. It should be. You should, you can learn it. And just to be clear, like sometimes my partner will make it up. Like if we're writing something, a scene that kind of, the the formatting is, is is unusual with like, it, it's a phone call within a phone call or something odd. We go, well, let's just write it like this. As long as it's clear for the reader, it's fine. No one's gonna, you know, and if the ad has a problem with it, okay, fine. We'll change it when the at, like, I don't fine if the ad one or the writer system wants to change it. Okay, fine. This is how we're gonna do it though,Phil Hudson (09:45):. Love it. Love it. Okay. So for, is there anything else that comes to mind? Like, is there anything else that a writer and again, basic thing a screenwriter should know?Michael Jamin (09:54):Well, you know you should know that your first sample, everyone writes a script and they wanna sell it. And I always say, you're not gonna sell it. You should just write it, write it as a sample. It's a calling card to get you work. And so look at it that way, which means you're gonna be, it's a, as a writing sample, you're gonna be judged on the quality of your writing. And so don't get so hung up on, on you you know, I wanna sell it, I wanna make a million dollars. It's, that's like starting at the, the mountain at the top. You gotta start the mountain at the bottom and work your way up.Phil Hudson (10:23):Yeah. Got it. Anything else?Michael Jamin (10:26):I don't think so. Okay.Phil Hudson (10:27):Maybe I, I will say that you cover a lot of this stuff in the course, so again, if anyone's interested in that michael jam.com/courseMichael Jamin (10:34):Go get how fi how to actually sit down and do it. Yeah. That's what we cover.Phil Hudson (10:37):Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did hear someone, because structure is the other thing that comes to mind and you cover that extensively in the course as well as the writing process professionals use. I will say, I did hear someone recently say that what you teach can be found in other places, but the way you teach it and the way you label specific things is just kind of a duh. Like, oh duh. Yeah. It's like, you can't misunderstand that. And I think that's beautiful from like a just getting information across perspective and a teaching perspective. I mean, that's why some of the early, early testimonial you got from the course where that you're not only a great writer but a great teacher. I think it's because it's, it's a no-brainer way You explain these things that are very convoluted and confusing.Michael Jamin (11:20):Lot of times, writer, screenwriting teachers, I think make it harder than it needs to be is like, no, just make it simple. It'sPhil Hudson (11:27):Try to make it smart. I got like 20 screenwriting books on the shelf back there, and it wasn't until I took your course and again, we, you'd been mentoring me for a while, but it wasn't until I took your course that I was like, yeah, that's just a no duh. Like I should just be doing it that way. I should think about it and conceptualize it that way cuz it's not, you know, inciting incidents and it's not convoluted, deeper mythical structure, which I totally am not knocking. I'm just saying it's a, an easy way to think about that process. Yeah. So make it easy. I'm beating the dead horse. I apologize about that, but I do think it's absolutely worth. It's a good, check it out. Yeah. All right. I has a follow up question. Should I always feel confident and proud of my work? How should I take criticism from someone who I don't think knows best?Michael Jamin (12:09):Well, you should be proud of yourself for sitting down and actually writing a script because most people say they want to do it and they don't do it. So good for you for doing it. How should you take criticism from someone, from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about? Is that what he said?Phil Hudson (12:21):Yeah. Someone who I don't think knows bestMichael Jamin (12:24):, and you don't, I mean, you know and that's a lot of people. You know what? There's valid criticism and there's stuff that, that is not valid. So if someone says if someone says, I don't, I think you should focus more on these characters, or I think the story should be about this, that's not valid criticism. That's someone who's just trying to rewrite your work. If someone that's honestly, and if people tell you that, tell 'em to go, you know, pound sand, because that's not, it's not helpful. What they can tell you is, I didn't understand what you were going for here. I didn't understand what this character, what their relationship was. I didn't understand why the ending was meaningful. That is irrefutable. That comment is because they're just saying, you can't even argue with that. You're saying, they're saying they don't understand it, and you can, you can't argue with that.(13:09):They didn't understand it. So if you wanna make that more clear, you could work on that in your piece. Or if you want to ignore it, it altogether, you could say, well, I don't want you to understand it. I don't know why you'd ever do that. I I think that'd be, I don't, I don't think confusing your audience is ever a good idea, but, but those are the kind of notes that someone can give you that are helpful and irrefutable and you can ha give it to your mom. And if your mom reads your script and, and you know, takes her a month to read it because it wasn't any good, you know, you, you ask her, listen, did you wanna turn the page? Did you wanna find out what happens next? Or did it feel like a homework assignment? And that's, anyone can, anyone can give you that note. Yeah. It felt a little bit like a homework assignment then. You know, your script is not ready. If it feels like a gift and they wanna read what they wanna read your next work, you might be onto something.Phil Hudson (13:58):Yeah. No, I told you, this is when I turned that corner, when I finally got that thing, I opened a beer, my friend said, I opened a beer to read your script. And at the end I realized I hadn't even taken a sip of my beer.Michael Jamin (14:09):That's good.Phil Hudson (14:09):Right? And I was like, that was huge. Like, that was hugely, I mean, never received any type of compliment like that before.Michael Jamin (14:15):Yeah, that's good writing, right?Phil Hudson (14:16):Yep. So, awesome. Moving on, McLean 5 55. I thought this was a really, really smart question. Is plagiarism a problem amongst screenwriters? Which I think is the typical question, but mm-hmm. then he, he or she, how can a writer avoid doing it themselves?Michael Jamin (14:36):Oh, plagiarizing.Phil Hudson (14:38):Try I avoid plagiarizing.Michael Jamin (14:39):Yeah. I don't know how big of a problem. It's, I mean, when you're writing in a writer's room, none of the writers are gonna steal for you. And, and the idea is, is is specific to the characters you have on the show. And so, I mean, no, we, I'm not gonna steal your idea cause we're gonna put it on next week's episode. I mean, you're, you're gonna shoot it. In terms of stealing ideas, often in a writer's room, someone will say, oh, they, I just saw that episode two weeks ago on whatever show. And then usually the writers will go, Ugh, we won't, will kill the idea. So that's not plagiarizing that's coming up with the idea independently and then killing it because you don't want people to think you plagiarized. And often there are similar often there're just similar things in the zeitgeist that come out at the same time. And, but I I, I don't, it's not really an issue that we really concern ourselves with plagiarizing. You know, I, I, at least I don't, I've never talked about plagiarizing.Phil Hudson (15:31):I think there's a level of homage too that's being mm-hmm. , like people are playing homage. So, did you ever watch this show? White Collar?Michael Jamin (15:39):No.Phil Hudson (15:40):White Collar loved this show. And then there's like this big moment at the end of a season where the guy gets in a limo and he takes a drink of a cocktail and he wakes up and he's at this place. And I was like, why have I seen that before? And then a couple months later I pop in mission to Possible three, and that's literally a thing that happens in that. And I was like, oh, okay. That feels a little lazy to me. But there are plenty of other times where people are doing things like workaholics, for example, they will totally base the premise of an episode off of a famous comedy, and you kind of get what's going on there. Like mm-hmm. , they're paying homage to that. Yeah. And it's like, it doesn't, doesn't feel, it doesn't feel icky at all.Michael Jamin (16:18):Yeah. Right.Phil Hudson (16:20):So yeah, it's it's like porn, right? You know it when you see it,Michael Jamin (16:24):You know it when you see it.Phil Hudson (16:26):There you go. Alright. San Sandy, T 63. What aspects of being a professional screenwriter do you wish people gave you a heads up about? And what are the struggles that nobody really talksMichael Jamin (16:38):About? Well, I don't know what, I mean, did someone gimme a heads up about like, I knew it was gonna be hard. I wasn't naive. I knew it was gonna be hard. It's gotten harder as I've, as the industry's changed, and no one who, who's gonna, who could have predicted that, who could have told, given me a heads up that these seasons orders would've gotten shorter. You know, when I broke in, we were doing 22 episodes of season. Now you're, you might be doing 10, and so you get paid per episode. And so it's a little harder. You have to string a, it's harder to string across you string a career together now than it was back then. But who could have told me that there was, you know, the writer strike was 2008, 2007, 2008. And back then we were striking over something called streaming.(17:24):And everyone was like, what's streaming? What's video on demand? What is vod? What does that even mean? No one knew what it was except for the Writer's Guild, and they knew this was something that we needed to get coverage on. And so that's why you have a good kilt. And so that was the strike to make sure that writers would get the same benefits if their show aired on a streaming network as opposed to a traditional network. And by the way, who ca I don't who cares how people are consuming it? It's the same amount of work, it's the same amount of creativity. I don't care if you're putting it with a, you have a my show I implanted in your tooth and you're watching it in your brain. It's the same amount of work for me. So how do I, why would I care if it's streamed on a through the internet or if it comes through on, you know, a satellite dish? Who cares? And so luckily there are smart people at the Guild who, who saw that coming. Yeah.Phil Hudson (18:11):Anything else come to mind? Any other struggles you deal with as a professional writer?Michael Jamin (18:16):Well, I don't know. Do you have something in mind, Phil?Phil Hudson (18:18):Well, it was just that there was a John August written a ton of stuff. He had a blog post years ago talking about how to budget your money from your first sale. And that was one of the things that I was like, that's really smart. I don't think people are talking about you've sold something now what do you do? And he broke it down and he did finances and there's a spreadsheet and you can go check it out johnaugust.com. But that, that has some pretty interesting information about it. So I just wasn't sure if there was anything else like you stumbled upon as a writer later in your career?Michael Jamin (18:48):Well I kind of knew that as a, just growing up, like you, you know, don't live beneath your means. Always, always. And I remember someone when I was first buying a house, I remember I got advice from someone, I won't say who it was, but other at the time, I was like, this is terrible advice. And he was a very successful showrunner and he was like whatever house you can buy, buy more, push yourself. Cuz there's, you know, you're gonna make a lot of money and so push yourself to buy a bigger house so you can, and I'm like, that sounds like a terrible idea. , no, my, my father always told me to live beneath my means and thank God I listened to my dad and not him because you're gonna go through, it's feast your famine. So I'll go months, months without making money and then I'll have a job and I'll make money again and then, but I never know how long the famine's gonna last. I just don't know. No one we, none of us do. Yeah.Phil Hudson (19:33):And you know, there's talking of a recession coming up, so that's mm-hmm. now's the time to be thinking about that stuff as well. I think we very quickly forget how bad things are when things are good and we've been as bad as things have been, we've been pretty good for a while. Yeah. So, you know, we had this conversation cuz I just moved recently in August, I moved to a much bigger house and I just remember laying awake for like weeks saying, how am I gonna afford this? Mm-Hmm. . And I could totally afford it. I would've never even moved if it didn't make sense from a percentage of my income. Cuz I too was taught to live below my means, but I still stressed about it because it's the most amount of money I've ever put into a home, right? Mm-Hmm. , same thing. You gotta, you gotta think about those things and where the next check's gonna come and how you're going to eat and how, you know, you have a family, how you're gonna feed your family.Michael Jamin (20:17):So mm-hmm. . Yeah.Phil Hudson (20:19):All right. Enough about my house. Sorry guys. I know you're here to listen to Michael, not me, but I appreciate you I appreciate you energyMichael Jamin (20:27):Real estate, wos.Phil Hudson (20:28):That's right. Holden underscore levy underscore. When writing a spec script, something that you did not create yourself for a studio, what is the most important thing to include in the script? Asking as I'm applying for an internship where they're asking us to write a spec scene for an existing show. So you want me to rephrase that?Michael Jamin (20:48):Yeah. What did he, yeah,Phil Hudson (20:50):Yeah. So Holden says, Hey, I'm applying for this internship and they're asking me to write a spec script from this spec scene from this episode, this existing show. Is there anything in particular I should be including there? Because it's not something I made I spec,Michael Jamin (21:03):Right? I it's easier to write a spec script than it is an original piece. Far easier, I think. I mean, you have to know how to tell a compelling story. I mean, this is, honestly, this is what we teach in the writing course that we, that we have at my screenwriting course. But is there anything you should put in Yeah, a good story and a good a story with, with high stakes and a compelling B story. And you should be able to have, the characters should be doing things that seem consistent with the characters. You shouldn't be having guest stars that drive the story. You shouldn't be. Ha And all this I teach you shouldn't have guest stars that have more lines than the regular characters. I mean, it should be about the characters in the show. I don't know why. I don't know what kind of internship it it is that requires you to submit aPhil Hudson (21:48):Spec. It's a spec. It's a spec scene. So to keep that, it's literally, theyMichael Jamin (21:51):Just, it'sPhil Hudson (21:52):A scene. It's a scene.Michael Jamin (21:55):Yeah. I, I, I can't, I don't even understand why, why, why they would want, aren't you just gonna be making coffee ? I mean, what are they gonna give you? But that, yeah, I mean, if it's just a scene sa same thing with what I, I just said, but on a smaller scale, you know, make sure the characters are consistent and doing make,Phil Hudson (22:11):Make sure they pop, make sure that there's something, express your voice. There's,Michael Jamin (22:14):There's conflicts. Yeah. Yeah. Make sure you're, your, the tone is right of the show. The consistent with the show. Don't do something totally off balance at the show would never have done, but you're like, woo. You know, oh, this is a horror episode of this show. But they don't do horror episodes on this show. Yeah, but what if they did? No. Do you should be con consistent of what they actually did. Sure. Represented it.Phil Hudson (22:37):Awesome. All right. I apologize. I'm gonna mispronounce this na underscore type life. It could also be Na cuz it's, it's a Jay. You're your're poly. You speak more than one language. You speak three Italian, Spanish English.Michael Jamin (22:51):Yeah, a little bit of English. Conversational English.Phil Hudson (22:53):Nice. Good for you. Mm-Hmm. , do you ever get, get your pronunciation super screwed up when you read words. , N A J oMichael Jamin (23:01):Between Spanish and Italian, orPhil Hudson (23:03):Yeah, anything? So for me, I speak English. Oh yeah. Spanish fluently. But whenever I talk to anyone, you could be Korean. You come up and talk to me. My brain wants to speak Spanish to you. Just out of the box.Michael Jamin (23:12):Oh yeah. I was talking to a comedian Frank Callo, right? Callo is Italian. He's Italian in, but he goes, that's not how he pronounces it, it's Callo. And I'm like, mm, you saying your name though?Phil Hudson (23:22):, you know, ira.Michael Jamin (23:24):Same thing with Mike Burbiglia. You know, I'm like, no, Mike, that's not how you say your last name.Phil Hudson (23:28):The, how do you say his last name?Michael Jamin (23:31):[Inaudible] That's, that's how you'd say an Italian. But that's not how he says it. IPhil Hudson (23:34):Like the handshake. I like the handshake too,Michael Jamin (23:36):While you're, they all talk with the hands.Phil Hudson (23:38):It's beautiful. [inaudible] Digress. Back to the, back to the question a hand. How do I prepare for a general meeting with a large full caps production company with a development exec as a screenwriter?Michael Jamin (23:50):Good question. So a general meeting, they're just, they wanna make sure you're not a, a drooling idiot. I would go in there ha with some knowledge of what they do. So do get on I M D B, do do a Google search of what kind of movies or TV shows they've made in the past. So you can have educated conversations. So you could say, Hey, what I love this project that you made. Everyone likes being told that you like their, you're a fan of their work. So that's easy. A Google search, talk about what they've done, compliment them, and then be prepared to talk about yourself and what you co what kind of projects you wanna do. And it's gonna be very tempting to go in and say, I can do everything. And that's not the truth. Find out, you know, if you're a drama writer, what kind of drama do you do?(24:29):If you're a comedy writer, what kind of comedy do you do? And, and tell them what you wanna do and what you excel at. And that way you're making, you're making their job easier. If you tell 'em exactly what you do, which is I do high-concept thrillers or whatever then when they have a project in mind or a need, they're gonna think of you. If you tell 'em I can do everything, they're not gonna think of you. You, you know, put yourself in a box to make it easy for them to employ you. So tho that's your preparation. And you could talk about, you should also be prepared to talk about what shows you. Like, they're gonna say, Hey, what shows are you watching? So you're gonna say, oh, I watched white Lotus. It's and then be prepared to talk about what you liked about it, you know?Phil Hudson (25:10):Yeah, no, that's great. That's great. Cool. Jeremy M. Rice, how much of show running is budgeting and managing a staff?Michael Jamin (25:18):All of it, but it's not really it is managing a staff. You, you're in charge of those staff, the writing staff. And, you know, most people don't become comedy writers especially to, to become, you know, management like that. We, we become writers because we don't want to go into management. And so suddenly you're the boss of the show and now you have to manage these other writers. And it's kinda like, I don't really know how to, it's a skill that you have to kinda acquire real fast. And so it's about motivating people, keeping people encouraging them so that they can give you their best. I feel it's important not to waste their time. If people feel like they're hostages, they're not gonna give you their best work, they're gonna feel beaten down. I like to empower people cuz that's how you get their best work out of them.(26:00):In terms of budgeting, you know, the budget is set and I don't even look at those numbers when I'm running the show. I'll just say, I'll ask the producer, can we do this? The line producer and the line producer doesn't even always know. Often they'll come back to you, they'll say, I think we can do this if we steal from this episode. So, you know, I think we can shoot an amusement park if we steal at this episode and you make this real, we don't spend a lot of money here. Can you do that? And so, okay. Yeah. I can have fewer sets and fewer actors and fewer everything to make this happen. So it's a lot, it's a conversation. That's why it's very collaborative. And you work closely with the department heads as a showrunner to get hopefully your your what your vision made. But I, I always try to stay on budget. Cuz the last thing you want to do is give the studio a reason to fire you.Phil Hudson (26:45):Sure. this goes back to like one of our early, early episodes. When you're staffing a show, are you considering budgets at all? Are you just saying, these are the people I want to hire. And then you hear back and say, well, we can't or we canMichael Jamin (26:56):No, they tell you they're, they'll come right out and they tell you, okay, you have enough money to hire one showrunner. Usually they'll say this we want you to have a big staff, so we want you to hire 10 staff writers. And then I'll come back and say, I don't want 10 staff writers. I would rather have one really good co-executive producer. And then, and then if there's money left over, we'll hire some staff writers. A lot of voices to me are not good in the room. I'd rather have qualified people who know what you're talking about then, then I don't need a million ideas. I just need someone who can write a really damn good script.Phil Hudson (27:26):Got it. You know, so you'd, you'd rather put the money towards talent and capability overMichael Jamin (27:31):Yeah. I always prefer comedy show, meaning experiencedPhil Hudson (27:35):Writers. I think that's general. That's generally true. I would say from my, what I've seen at least, and I'm,Michael Jamin (27:40):Yeah. But often they want the people, often the people with the purses, they tell you the op they want the opposite because they don't know. And so they're like, no, no, we want you to have a lot of different voices. I don't want a lot of different voices. That's the last thing I want. I want people who can do the job. Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Phil Hudson (28:21):Ivan Garcia 66 22 is back. If I wish to become a professional writer, doesn't mean I should drop everything and just write all day every day.Michael Jamin (28:29):Well, I dunno how you're gonna do that without paying. You gotta pay the bills. But you can certainly drop all your pastimes and become a writer. Like you have to go to work and, you know, and, and, but after work, yeah. What you should be writing, you should be writing every day regardless. And and I I heard a great quote who I think, who was it? I think it was Stephen King said this. I was like, oh, that makes, yeah, that I like the way he said it. You know, when you're inspired, you're right. When you're, when you exhausted and you just don't have it in you in the can, then you should be reading. But writing comes first.Phil Hudson (28:58):I think it was Terrence Winter, and I apologize if I'm miss Mrs. Operating this quote. But he was on a podcast I listened to years ago, and he said that when he moved to LA I believe he was an attorney first, and then he moved to LA mm-hmm. . And when he moved here, and he's the creator of Boardwalk Empire and he worked on the Sopranos, really well-known, talented writer. Writer. But he said he moved here and his friends would be like, Hey, let's go to a Dodgers game. And he'd say, no, I haven't earned it yet. And he would not allow himself to go have fun until he had done the work he had assigned himself to do. Yeah. And that's a level of dedication, discipline and professionalism that I think you have to have to make it. And it obviously works, look at him. But yeah, you gotta pay your bills, you gotta eat, right. Yeah. So for him, it's, you know, it's sacrificing where other people are not willing to sacrifice because heMichael Jamin (29:47):Right. Yeah. How bad do you want it? So you, you can't, you gotta have to make choices.Phil Hudson (29:52):And we talked about this before. It's you know, sacrifice is a, it basically needs to make hauling, right? It's, you're making something sacred so you're turning, you're exchanging something for something else to get something better, which I think is a podcast that's coming up is, yeah. Long-Term focus over short term gratification.Michael Jamin (30:07):I guess that makes sense. Sacrament.Phil Hudson (30:09):Yeah. Alright. grizzly, hanif, gri, grizzly, heif. He, I don't know, I apologize. Grizzly, how do you balance writing multiple scripts?Michael Jamin (30:22):Like, I wonder if they're talking about me or you. IPhil Hudson (30:25):Think it's a que it's a question for you. And, and I think that they might speak to one, right? But how do you, as someone who is writing multiple projects, you know, you've sold two or three projects recently with your writing partner Yeah. And your writing your own books, your your own essays. Yeah. How do you balance that?Michael Jamin (30:43):Well, it depends what we're doing. But I, I, I don't have too many projects at any one time. It's only a couple. So it's not that hard. If we're running a show, then we have a bunch of scripts out and we have to keep 'em all in mind. And you know, and yeah, you look at the outlines, you look at the notes that's, that's the hard part of the job. But in terms of projects, I don't have, I think a lot of people, one, if we're talking about an aspiring writer or an emergency writer, I think they'll often have multiple scripts because they get bored by their own work. And, well, I'll just do this now because I'm stuck here. I'll just do this now. And so the problem with that is they're struggling. They don't know what they're doing and so they're just, they're just putting it off by starting a new project, never finishing anything. And so that's not good that, that's why education can help. Where if you understand story structure, you shouldn't be struggling as much. You, you shouldn't be getting bored by your own workPhil Hudson (31:31):Right? Now, that doesn't mean you're not gonna finish. You get to, to a point when we talked about that and in previous podcast, how do you know when you're done this this project done? You set it aside, you go write something else, you're gonna come back, you're probably gonna rewrite some stuff. It's probably gonna see a bunch of holes, some things you can fix, things you can improve. But that's just because you got better because you wouldn't put in time on another project. So Yeah. But I think that's a great point. Like when you're running a show, you are running a show and you're doing a lot of, a lot of episodes, a lot of storylines going at the same time. Yeah.Michael Jamin (31:59):So, and often I'll say to the writer, what's going on? What's the story about? Again, refresh my memory because I, cause I can't remember, you know, 10 episodes at the same time.Phil Hudson (32:07):Alright. Johnny JK zero one. How does your workday look as a feature writer versus a TV writer?Michael Jamin (32:13):Well, I don't really work much in film. Film. I, we've, my partner, we've sold two. But we've since stayed in television. I, you know, I don't really know. I mean, your future writer, you know, you're working from your house probably more. And it's like, it's not collaborative. You're alone and you, you're dealing with your producer, producer's giving you notes and you're going back and you're, you're banging your head against the wall. But on TV show, it's collaborative, a writing staff. So if you have, if you get stuck on a scene, you, you bring it in front of the staff and you say, Hey, let's talk about this some more.Phil Hudson (32:41):Yeah. Great. Alright. colors by sec. C e k, does it really matter where you go to college or university to study screenwriting? How much of an impact does it make on your career? Are the prestigious schools really what they make themselves out to be?Michael Jamin (32:57):I don't think, no, I don't think so. I think what you can get from, it's important to learn, you know, screenwriting and study it somewhere. But the degree itself is worthless. No one's gonna ask to see your degree. They're gonna wanna know if you can write. And if you, and if that te that school teaches you how to be a good writer, then it's worth something. But the degree itself will not open any doors. No one cares. I've never hired anybody. I've never asked to see their degree. I never wanna see their gpa. It means nothing to me. So the education is worth something, but the degree is worthless, I think. But and also if you go to a school, you may, if it's a prestigious school, your, your fellow students may grow up to be successful directors and, and people that you can work with in the future. So it's good to network with those people because they'll, you know, they'll arising tide raises all boats. But but you can get the, the knowledge without having the degreePhil Hudson (33:53):Yeah. As someone with a degree. I concur.Michael Jamin (33:57):Yeah.Phil Hudson (33:59):Ryan Danowski, how many credits does a writer need to have if they want to become a creator or a showrunner?Michael Jamin (34:06):Yeah. How many credits? It's like it doesn't really work like that. I mean, we were writers for 10 years before someone decided we were ready to be showrunners. And even then we weren't sure if we were ready. It's, it's a big leap. There was talk earlier, like I, I know some people who become showrunners, you know, maybe after four or five. And it's, it's a little scary because there's so much to learn and so much to know. So it's not even about credit. So they, I know everyone wants to be a showrunner. I, I would just don't like, just worry about being him a writer first. It's, it's, it's so freaking hard. There's so much you have to know. And that's why they get paid so much money is because, you know, you gotta know how to do it. I, it's, I I wouldn't just learn how to write first one step at a time.Phil Hudson (34:55):Yeah. I yeah, I think it, the, that question kind of speaks to a lack of understanding of how the process works. And it's not like you apply for that job, right? Right. Like, that's a job that you are given or assigned because you have enough clout and credit and respect for the accomplishments you have. Or you've sold something and you have enough clout credits. Right. And and respect for what you've done. So, because we, I asked that question early on. Go ahead.Michael Jamin (35:27):Well, the first time we were hired as showrunner, it's like, I'm sure that was Michael. Hi Michael Eisner hired us for Glenn Martin. I'm sure he was nervous cuz we had never run a show before. And he had a right to be nervous. We had a lot of experience, but he was like, can you do this? And my partner like, yeah, we could do it Very unconvincingly. So he had a right to be nervous and we were nervous. It's like, it's a big, it's a big deal to give someone that break.Phil Hudson (35:49):Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I asked that question early on too. Like, if I sold a show, am I automatically the showrun? And you're like, Nope. I knew you may not even be an executive producer,Michael Jamin (35:58):Right? Oh, probably not. You'll probably be, yeah. But you'll probably be a low level or mid-level writer. You're not gonna, they're not gonna, it's, it's such a big deal that they're not gonna trust their investment to someone who's has no idea how to do it.Phil Hudson (36:10):Sure, sure. Awesome. That's the end of our professional. We got a couple aspirational and one general, I think we can get these done in a couple minutes here and, and wrap this up. Don't need to split into a third episode on the Ask Me Anything episode of Michael Jam's screenwriting podcast. Yeah. Nate, the Nate Gillen or Gillen, I'm so horrible with these pronunciations. I apologize everybody. As the medium for television seems to shift from networks to streaming platforms, whose staff should I try to join as a PA and eventually a writer to pitch a show to after years of experience in course Netflix, Disney, a studio like fx andMichael Jamin (36:47):I think whoever will hire you, that's Yeah. Is that what youPhil Hudson (36:50):Yeah, that's definitely,Michael Jamin (36:51):There's no wrong answer. Whoever will hire you and those writers will bo if they're on a network show next year, they'll be on a streaming show. Like they'll bounce around. There's, we don't, we don't care, I don't think. Yeah, for the most part we're like, Hey, who's hiring? We'll take the job.Phil Hudson (37:05):Yeah. I think I can speak to this as someone who has been a PA for the last several years in multiple aspects whatever job you can get, like finding a job is the hard part. Like yeah, it is so hard to find APA job where you can get brought on that you can then have to build a reputation. And it's not like you stick with a studio or, or production company. Mean you're typically moving with that crew of people. You're production office coordinator likes you, so as an office pa they hire you on the next show. You're a set pa the first ad likes you or the second ad likes you. The second, second likes you. So they bring you on to the next one. You move with the people, not necessarily the people making the show. There are some circumstances, you know, I've, I've been working with 8 24 for a couple seasons now on Tacoma fd and I did have some conversations with them where they said, Hey, we would like to continue to work with you.(37:57):And so I've built that relationship of trust over several seasons with them. And I could probably go to them and say, Hey, I'm looking for a job and they'd recommend me to stuff, but I also have plenty of other relationships that I could probably just move to the next project or the next project with the groups of people I've worked with. So it's just networking and you've gotta get the job first. So don't, don't don't feel like you're plotting out an entire career based on what job we get as a pa. That's just not gonna happen.Michael Jamin (38:23):Right,Phil Hudson (38:24):Right.Michael Jamin (38:25):Cool. Exactly.Phil Hudson (38:26):We're gonna get into some questions that are very similar here. Right. And so I, I just want to give the, these people, cause I asked the question some, some clout, but they are very similar and I, things you've already answered many times as an aspiring screenwriter, what is one of the best ways to gain exposure? Where is a good outlet to present your work to gain potential opportunity? That's nine. Nine Jack. And then I'm gonna do Kimmy, Naomi, what are the best ways to get your writing out there and known to attract bigger opportunities these days? And she talks about how it used to be blogging. Is it festivals? Is it shorts? Kind of smashing 'em together, right?Michael Jamin (39:03):Yeah. But it's, it's anything. It's like, sure, you can apply it to some of the bigger screenwriting festivals. The big ones, not the little ones. The ones who've heard of are, you know, they might be worth something, you know, Sundance or Nickels orPhil Hudson (39:16):Austin Television.Michael Jamin (39:18):Austin, yeah. Yeah. Those are good ones. But the smaller ones are, you know, they're just money making operations. So that's what you could do that. But also just put your wor anywhere you put your work out there short. Sure. Make a TikTok channel and put your work up there, you know, in three minute. Make a name for yourself learn every time you create something you know, is, is a good experience, you'll learn from it. You know, a lot of people think it's about networking with people like me. And it's not, you don't have to network with people like me. You can network with people like you. And so you could find fellow filmmakers just outta college or people in college or you know, students or whatever, and just start making stuff together. Get a group of actors. Writers may build a community because those people are gonna rise up.(40:05):If they're serious about it, they're gonna rise up. They're gonna have little opportunities. Hey, I just booked an actor's gonna say, I just booked a commercial. Or a writer's gonna say, oh, I just got, I just, you know, a tiny little thing for somebody. I wrote the, and whatever it is, it's gonna look. Whoa. That's interesting. That, and you're going to surround yourself with these people and all these little opportunities. You're gonna learn about their opportunities and maybe they're gonna bring you in on stuff or maybe you're be inspired. Oh, I could, I could write something like that. I can stage a play and you're building your community of people and someone's gonna pop and you're gonna pop. You know, and that's how you rise up. You don't have to start at the top. You don't have to get your hands in Steven Spielberg's lap to make it in Hollywood. You, all you gotta do is get, build yourself a little community and that's whoever you wanna be with. And that's, that's why I encourage people to move to LA because a lot of those people happen to be in la. Right. If you, you people come to LA to make that dream happen, can you do it and stay where you are, I guess. But you're gonna find more people out here trying to do it.Phil Hudson (41:04):Yeah. LA is also a great sift. It's a sifter of people. A lot of people are gonna move here. A lot of people are gonna fall out. There's a lot of attrition. People are gonna leave and they're, they're not gonna make it. You know, I moved here with a bunch of people from film school. Most of them have left the business or have moved back home cuz just didn't, they didn't have what it took or they didn't feel like they could devote the time or just,Michael Jamin (41:27):Or how serious did they take it? Did they make it, did those stu film students, did they ever actually try to makePhil Hudson (41:32):Anything? No, theMichael Jamin (41:33):Answer's no. No. Right. The answer's no.Phil Hudson (41:35):Right. Because it's, it's easier to dream about something. It's zero risk to think it or dream it or say you're doing it. It is a lot of risk personally and financially and professionally to go out and try to do something. But I don't know anyone who's ever knocked someone for trying. I hear a lot of people, it, it's people want to save face with family and friends or relationships they have back at home or wherever it is who said you're never gonna make it. And so that it's easier to say you don't wanna do it. Like I have a friend really tell a writer puts in more effort than anyone I know writing, he writes all the time, but he never finishes anything and he never submits anything. He never sends anything out. He, he's turned down pa jobs. I've tried to give him, he's done all these things because, and this is like super deep. He's afraid of failing his father. Like his father told him he's not gonna make it. And so any tertiary job related to film that is not film counts because there's zero stake in it.Michael Jamin (42:31):Yeah. But I, you know, it's sad, but you have to start like success doesn't look like what you think it looks like. Success doesn't look like a giant check from a studio to make your movie. It looks like some opportunity that's beneath you. It looks like you making a student film shooting and on your iPhone and posting into YouTube and what's the budget? $30. I mean, that's what it look, I mean, there's no reason why you can't do that. You know, you need better sound, maybe more than $30, but you don't need $50,000 to make your movie. No, you could do it on your phone. You need good sound and you need pay people and pizza. That's how you do it.Phil Hudson (43:05):And people will happily do it from pizza. People are starving in LA man, it's expensive. It's actually cheaper right now by the way, to eat out than it is to buy groceries. So just keep that in mind. That's the inflation world. Yeah. All right. Last question here and then one in general is writing and directing the best way to get your name out there.Michael Jamin (43:22):Well, a any way to get like whatever you're doing. What, whatever, like making afil film with your neighbor already. You, you're exposing yourself to more people than just staying in your basement and doing nothing.Phil Hudson (43:34):Yeah. And the short answer, the reason I separated this one, the short answer is what do you want to do? Do that, do that as much as you can. Do it every chance you can put it out there as many times as much as you can no matter what. And embrace the fact that you're gonna suck at it. Like that's new. It's not meant to be easy for you. Suck it up. And there's zero stakes right now. Cause nobody knows who you are. And that's great.Michael Jamin (43:57):You know what though? I, I've told this story before, but like a couple months ago, a a stu I know this girl, girl I went to high school with, her son is now a student at a film school. And he lives in LA and they were ca they needed people to be in her student film. And they asked if I wanted to do it and they're like, I'm not an actor, so I didn't want to do it, but, but if I was an actor, cause they needed a guy my age, if I was an actor, I would've done it. Why? Because those kids, that crew of five people, you know Sure. They're just dumb students at us film school. No, they're going to, someone is gonna rise up and become, make a name for themselves. And so why wouldn't I not want to, you know, get to know that person? And so it may feel like, well, but yeah, but that's an op that's an opportunity for five years or 10 years from now. You know, get into, get built a circle for yourself. There's no reason like, I didn't wanna do it cause I don't wanna be an actor, but there's no reason. If I wanted to, I would've done it.Phil Hudson (44:52):Yeah. speaking of that, and we haven't talked about this much, I just let you know this last week, but I actually have a couple producers who've hired me to write a spec feature that's just in any feature. It's not anything guild related. It's my first paid work. It's amazing that opportunity. Yeah, it's huge. And that opportunity comes from, they needed help producing a sizzle reel in New Mexico in 2015. And I showed up and I devoted all my time for a weekend to them. I spent tons of time, I spent some of my own money taking care of people, getting things done and impressive enough that, that, and with the help of your course and your mentorship, and the time I put into being here in Hollywood and working in mm-hmm. as a piano, these things I finally have writing samples that impress them enough. This is, yeah, you can hit a budget. It's producible and it's good enough writing. Right. They're gonna send it off, you know, so they're gonna take it and they're gonna submit it to production companies to try to get made as an Indy film.Michael Jamin (45:48):And that's fantastic. Right. And that's because you put yourself out there and you didn't, and you know, nothing was beneath you and you didn't think you had to start at the topPhil Hudson (45:58):Because you don't, you can't. Yeah. So you can't, and I apologize, I missed one question here. It's from Hershey Bar, v a r r. How do you know when you're, you're ready to sell your script? Another one, you,Michael Jamin (46:11):When someone offers to, when someone offers you money for it. But it's kind of, I think we kind of hit on it a little bit already. It's like, if you give your script to somebody and people enjoy, they want to turn the page, you might have something. If it's, if it's a not, you know, if you can't get even your best friend to say it's good, then it's not ready. And again, your goal is not to sell it. Your goal is to impress someone with your writing so that you have other opportunities. So don't even think about, it's not about selling your script. Everyone wants to make money. How about you just learn how to become a good someone that people that you, you know, that you're in demand. If you're a good writer, you will be in demand. Learn how to write first and then doors will open. But if it's all, if it's only about lining your pockets, you know, what do you think's gonna happen?Phil Hudson (46:53):Yep. So, all right. That wraps that up for the aspirational section. One question in general, it's from Christopher Rings. Do you have a favorite meta description of screenwriters in media? I think of the, I love Lucy Writer's Room and being the regards, oh, this is a more personal question for you. It's not about your own.Michael Jamin (47:10):Yeah. I, I, yeah. I watched that and I enjoyed that. That's funny. I mean, Aaron Sorkin is a fantastic writer. I was a little surprised when I watched that. And Aaron Sorkin knows what a writer's room is. I mean, you know, he's run writer's rooms. He's been in writer's rooms. I was a little surprised about when I watched that. It was the Char, I don't remember the character but sh she's a female writer on, on Lyla Lucy. And she was given it to Lucille Ball in the, in the movie. She was given it to her. And I'm like, whoa. I've never been on a writing staff where a staff writer talked to the star that way. . Now that's not to say it didn't happen, because maybe it did, you know, may you know, I don't know about the past, but I was surprised when I saw that.(47:49):I was like, whoa. In, in, in general, we don't, we don't talk to actors that way. We don't yeah, we don't yell at them. We, especially the star, we don't call 'em out. Cause they'll fight you. They'll get you fired . So no one wants to get fired, . So I'm not sure if that's a, an accurate, although I totally enjoyed that movie and I, and I watching it and I was like, oh, I wonder if that's how it was. I, you know, I don't know. I wasn't there. So is there an accurate depiction? I thought it's reallyPhil Hudson (48:17):More your favorite. I think the question is favorite, not necessarily accurate. Oh, okay. It could be, could be accurate. It could be both.Michael Jamin (48:23):I always liked on the la and I haven't seen it in 20 years, but on the Larry Sanders show, I always like the way the accurate Jeremy PN was pur portrayed on the la as the writers, because those guys were never happy . They were joke writers and they were never happy. And they always aspired to do more, sell the screenplay or whatever. And I, that felt real to me. Or it felt funny to me. I, and I haven't worked in late night television, so I don't know if it's accurate, but I thought that was hilarious.Phil Hudson (48:49):That's awesome. I really love, was it Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, which I brought it before to mm-hmm. , I think it's Aaron Sorkin as well. And it's like a Saturday Night Live type show behind the scenes really moving, really moving one of the most beautiful Christmas episodes of anything I've ever seen really touching. SoMichael Jamin (49:04):And then there's 30 rock portrayed actor writer, the writing stuff, but not really they quickly ditched that because they're, the gold was not in the writing stuff, isn't it? Watching people write is not interesting. Watching actors become idiots. That's more interesting than watching writers at a table, so.Phil Hudson (49:21):Awesome. Well, that's the end of your ask me anything, Michael. Two, two parter. Done. any other thoughts, questions, anything you want to put out to the, to your audience?Michael Jamin (49:31):Just the normal stuff. We got lots of free resources for people who want to go get it. We got free downloads of sample script.Phil Hudson (49:38):We have, we should, you know, one thing we don't talk about is you have your you have a bunch of free samples that you have available of your writing. I'll pull up the URL here if you want to start talking about the other one. They probably don't have thatMichael Jamin (49:51):Ready. Yeah. That we have that we have a free lesson on, on screenwriting at michaeljamin.com/free. Definitely get that. We have a, our watch list, which is our weekly newsletter with tips. You should be on that michaeljamin.com/watchlist. I post daily on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook at @MichaelJaminWriter. This is all free guys. And then of course, there's some downloads for scripts that I've written. If you wanna, you know, study those or look at the formatting I know it's on our, I know it's available on the website, michaeljamin.com. I know you can. Phil's gonna give you the rightPhil Hudson (50:25):Url. Yeah, I'll get it. And you know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna put a link in the show notes here, so just go check that out. Mm-Hmm. . Cuz it's gonna be a, it's gonna take me a second to pull this up. I've done a poor job of making it really accessible, so I will get that fixed today. Yeah, we'll you can always go to michaeljamin.com/ there's a free stuff tab at the top mm-hmm. . And you can just hit that and it'll be in there. So yeah, that's it. Cool.Michael Jamin (50:48):All right everyone, thank you so much, Phil, thank you for join

A quick discussion between BUILD Performance Coaches Ben Rogers and Larry Sanders, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 12th Dad's Toolbelt, recorded on January 31st, 2023. Our hope as leaders is to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action to improve their parenting game. For business inquiries, please visit www.buildthearmy.com or email brogers@buildthearmy.com. Our mission is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

A quick discussion between TBL Coaches Ben Rogers and Larry Sanders, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 11th Dad's Toolbelt, recorded on December 28th, 2022. Our hope as leaders is to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action to improve their parenting game. For business inquiries, please visit www.tblcoaching.com or email brogers@tblcoaching.com. The mission of TBL Coaching is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

Greg Thompson is a writer-producer known for Bob's Burgers, Glenn Martin D.D.S., and King of The Hill.Greg Thompson on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0860188/Greg Thompson on Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregthompMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptionsGreg Thompson:Try to pay attention to the voices of the show. Know the show. Watch, watch every episode. Um, you know, when we were hired on King of the Hill, I, I'd watched King of the Hill, but I hadn't seen everything. But, you know, I methodically started plowing through hundreds of episodes at that point. I think maybe 200 episodes had happened by the time we, we joined it. So, and that's just kind of an education and you internalize the voices of the characters and, and it, it helps you. It helps you know what to pitch. You'reMichael Jamin:Listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jen.Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin and I got another special guest today. This is my old friend. I'm gonna, this is my friend Greg Thompson, and I'm gonna give you a proper introduction, Greg. So sit down, just relax. Let me just talk to the people for a second. Um, so Greg is a very successful TV writer and he started on bunk, a show called Bunk Bread Brothers. We're gonna run through some of, through some of the credits. I'm heard of Bunk Bread Brothers, then fired up, which was interesting. This was the heyday of nbc. This was when, uh, the character she lived instead of a clock. She was, she was a church mouse, wasn't she? GregGreg Thompson:. Yeah, she was a church MassMichael Jamin:WhoGreg Thompson:Is second, second season. She moved into a shoe, uh,Michael Jamin:.Greg Thompson:It was Sharon Lawrence with, uh, Leah Remedy.Michael Jamin:Ah, Sharon Lawrence with Leah Remedy. This was back in the heyday of NBC shows like, uh, musty tv. And then a show called, I'm gonna run through some of your credits. Maggie, big Wolf on campus, then one of your bigger credits. 30, uh, third Rock from the Sun. Great show, then Grounded for Life. Another great show. Everyone hates Chris. Everybody hates Chris. Everybody hates Chris. Another great show. I'm in Hell. We're gonna talk about that. King of the Hill. You were there for many years. Glen Martin, dds. I never heard of that one, but I was involved in it. then Now, most recently you were writer, what are you executive, co-executive producer on Bob's Bergs.Greg Thompson:So I, I'm, I'm down to consulting producer. Technically I was we'll talk, I was co exec. I was actually executive, I was actually executive producer to be, to be most technical. Well, yeah, we all got promoted up to executive producer after aMichael Jamin:Certain And what happened? Why did you get bounced down to co exec? I mean, a consulting producer.Greg Thompson:I decided to rank fewer, fewer days a week. So I, I've, I've, am I, do you still want me on the show?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I'm, now I'm jealous of you. How many days a week are you working?Greg Thompson:I only work two days.Michael Jamin:Oh. And of those two days, how many days are you really working? ?Greg Thompson:I don't know. Probably four. Cuz it filters into other days andMichael Jamin:Yeah,Greg Thompson:It does over it also. Yeah.Michael Jamin:We're gonna talk about that. But I wanna get into the beginning, Greg. Cause I, I, I, so we met in the Warner Brothers Writers Program, writers workshop, or whatever it was called. Yeah, we did. And you were, were supposed to be you and your partner. Our Abrams were supposed to be the competition that me and Seavert were facing. And, but very quickly we realized we weren't, we weren't gonna, we weren't gonna make good enemies, friends and love.But, but I gotta say, Greg, you've always been, and I know I've never, probably never said this to you personally, but you were, it may seem odd since we don't talk that often, but you were definitely one of my closer friends, closest friends in the industry, because I always feel like I, I feel like we're not in competition. I can always be, I can confide in you to tell you what's going on with my career. I never feel like I'm gonna get stabbed in the back. You always got my back. I got your back. So you, you've always been a great friend. And that's why as I thank, thank you for doing the show and helping everyone Oh, tell your story.Greg Thompson:You're, you're very welcome. You, of course, it's of course it's mutual. Um, and I'll just say at the Radcliffe or at the, uh, pardon me, the Writer's Warner Brothers Writer's Workshop, um, I was, uh, so intimidated by you and Seavert. I, uh, you like you, we were kind of sited. We were seated in kind of a big o and you were, you guys were like across the room and you already, you already had credit. You had a credit on Lois and Clark, which was like, you know, incredibly impressive. We didn't have credits.Michael Jamin:That's what you were, that's what you're, because there was no other reason to be intimidated by us. So we never said anything like, IGreg Thompson:Think, I don't know, you just, you looked, you looked the right part. Sea had this kind of scowl on his face all the time, which, which was very untrue to his personality. But he just looked, uh, super serious. Like, like heMichael Jamin:WasGreg Thompson:Interesting figuring it all out.Michael Jamin:Turns out neither of us. It was a prestigious program. And, and it didn't help either of us. It didn't help. It definitely didn't help. But it didn't help you did itGreg Thompson:Other than Well, it, it did get us, it did lead us to an agent, which then, which then led us to our first job. So it actually did help us, even though the Warner Brothers, the studio was not interested in hiring us,Michael Jamin:Right? So after,Greg Thompson:After watching us work,Michael Jamin:As I tell our audience to catch 'em up, um, so yeah, we worked together. So we never worked together. We were just, we became friends on that. And then later, then later we shared a bungalow. We both had overall deals at CBS Radford. And so we shared a bungalow. We'd have lunch together. Remember we'd hang out in your office and just talk about ideas. Bounce Yeah. Each other that think an overall deal's great. That was fun. And then later was, no, king Hill was before that.Greg Thompson:King Hill was beforeMichael Jamin:That. Right? And then later Radford, our overall deal. Then later we hired you guys on, on Glen Martin. And you guys saved our butts. You and your partner Aaron, saved our butts. And then how did I Thank you. I almost, I almost thanked you by destroying your career. . I only remember you guys, you guys came in, was it, it was season two, right? Of Glen Martin.Greg Thompson:Yeah. Season two. Yeah.Michael Jamin:We, we brought you in. We had the money. We wanted very, we wanted season writers. And you guys came in, you always delivered great drafts, which is, is, I always say, this is all you want from a writer. Can you turn in a good draft? And you guys always did. And then there was talk of spinning off Glen Martin to a spinoff. And I remember we were like, Hey, we'll do this show. And then you could run the other show or which one, one or the other you guys could run. And you're like, eh, we got this other offer to go to this cartoon called Bob's Burgers. You don't wanna go to Bob's Burgers,Greg Thompson:,Michael Jamin:You wanna stay here? . And then, and thank God you took that offer, cuz I would've felt terrible like ruining your career. Cause that they spinoff never happened. . And then Glen Martin was canceled and it jumped off just in time to go to,Greg Thompson:There was an idea that Glen Martin was gonna jump to Fox or something, andMichael Jamin:There was a lot of lies floating .Greg Thompson:Yeah. It was probably Michael Eisner was planning these thoughts.Michael Jamin:Um, right. I forgot Fox. Fox didn't, Fox had no, had no knowledge of that. They weren't on Greg Thompson:. But, uh, yeah. But yeah, I think we all thought the puppet animation genre was gonna explode. And, and I have to say, it's really funny. It's still, when I look at, I've dug up some old Glen Martin's. It is really funny. I mean, it is, it was an underrated show under watched certainly, but also underrated.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. It was, we did some good stuff. You guys wrote some great episodes. But then, so you got the offer because Bob's Burgers co-create by Jim Dore. We both work with on King of the Hill. So he reached out to you guys. How did you have this Bob about, and why didn't he reach out to us? ?Greg Thompson:I didn't probably You were working. You, you're busy. Um, weMichael Jamin:Were busyGreg Thompson:Developed by Jim DotR. I should make sure I say that properly. Created by Lauren Bouchard, developed by Jim DotR. Um, yeah, he was just staffing up. And actually he, he had hired two other guys, uh, before us. And then there, um, and gosh, I'm blanking blanket on their names. Sorry. Um, but they had a pilot going, and their pilot got picked up to production. So they had to drop out of Bob's burger's mm-hmm. . And, and then that opened up a slot and Jim, Jim called us to, to come interview for it. And we saw the That's been, and, and you guys, you guys let us out of our Glen Martin deal early by the way. You, you did us a favor that not everybody would've done.Michael Jamin:That's that is true. Now some people wouldn't. But, but I think most,Greg Thompson:I most, I think most would good, good people would,Michael Jamin:Good people let you out. Our contract. Um, and so, and how many that was 2008, you've been on that? Oh, no,Greg Thompson:That was 2000, 2010. We went over there, 10, I think we, we went over to Glen Martin. We were there for actually second half of the first season through most of the second season.Michael Jamin:Oh, that's what it wasGreg Thompson:Like Glen Martin. Yeah. So I think we wrote It'sMichael Jamin:A amazing song. You've been on Bob's Burgers. It's crazy. Like that's, that's job security.Greg Thompson:Yeah, I was thinking, yeah, it's, it's 12 over 12 years now. And I, I'm wearing, um, I'm wearing the first piece of swag we ever got on Bob's. I don't know if it's visible on camera or not. This, this, uh, old hoodie, which is now just in taters. It's 12 years old. AndMichael Jamin:Do you, is it hard coming up with stories that at the, for 12 years?Greg Thompson:Yes. Yes. Very hard. Um, also because unlike The Simpsons, which is kind of branched off into the peripheral characters, they'll do a episode about APU or whatever they used to. Anyway. Um, Bob's stays with the, the family. Right. And, and doMichael Jamin:You, how, how does the musical numbers work? How do you guys produce, you know, how do you write and produce that?Greg Thompson:Uh, well, I, Lauren is extremely musical. Lauren Bouchard very musical. So he always had, you know, a big interest in that. And he can, he can write and play. And then there are, you know, there are, uh, musical people, you know, uh, uh, on the show.Michael Jamin:Who writing the lyrics for that? Do you write some script or what?Greg Thompson:Well, we do, yeah. Yeah. Most of the writers will write some lyrics. I've written. Yeah, I've written some lyrics. And that's, you know, don't write the music occasionally. You might like take a stab at a tune for something silly, but yeah. And that's, that's like, and that's, that's like funMichael Jamin:For the music as wellGreg Thompson:Then. Yeah. Yeah. You do like the, um, yeah, we're like members of ASCAP or BMI or something. Yeah. And, um, yeah, there's actually been, um, two Bobs Burgers record albums that have come out. Didn't that sub pop?Michael Jamin:Were you with the movie as well,Greg Thompson:Though? Yeah, I mean, to a limited degree. It was, the movie was, was really written by, by Lauren and Nora Smith, who's also the, you know, his number two, she's also Show Runner. Um, and then, but all the other writers pitched in on Story and, and jokes and, you know, we looked at lots of cuts. And so we, we were, we were part of it. Uh, we're, we have credit, but, um, but they did the, uh, heavy lifting for sure.Michael Jamin:And, you know, you're kind of like the last writer, Guild of America. Cartoon , one of the last, right. I mean, you're covered by the writer Guild, right? It's not ascap. I mean, notGreg Thompson:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a writer's guilded show. Yeah. And I guess, like, I don't know, not to tell Tales Outta School. I think Disney is still trying to, you know, put shows on the air on, you know, Disney now owns 20th Century Fox Television. Um, still try to get, you know, II covered shows, which that's a, a guild with fewer, bene fewer benefits for your, your viewers.Michael Jamin:It's nonstarter now. It's like, it's, I, it's, it's the animation.Greg Thompson:Oh, is it really? Yeah. Okay. Things are tough. Okay. I didn't realize that.Michael Jamin:How did you, now you didn't start you, what was your career for the, for people who are listening, what was your career before you got into writing? I'll start from theGreg Thompson:Beginning. Um,Michael Jamin:Year was 1948.Greg Thompson:. I was, I was 12. The, uh, that wasThe, I I would just say in brief that like, I always loved television growing up. I loved movies and television. Uh, and I, I became a writing major in college, uh, creative writing major, which wasn't, wasn't a good idea. Uh, but at all that time, it never occurred to me that there were people that wrote television . I never looked at the credits. And so it never occurred to me that there would be a career doing screenwriting. Um, and so after I got outta college, I went into, I moved to New York and I got into, uh, book publishing and was a, worked in marketing for a few different publishers. Uh, book and magazine publishing. And that was go, that was my career. That was what I was doing. I was gonna be kind of a business person. And, you know, in, I wore a suit, uh, took the subway.Um, and then I went to business school to get an MBA thinking, well, that's the next step of my, my, uh, tremendous business career. And that brought me out to LA afterwards to work at the LA Times. Um, and, uh, uh, Aaron Abrams. So you bet you, before my friend, uh, had split up with his wife, he'd moved out to LA to be a screenwriter, and then his marriage had blown up. Um, so he had an empty bedroom. And I moved in with him to begin my job at the LA Times. And Aaron was trying to be a screenwriter. And so for the,Michael Jamin:From college,Greg Thompson:Uh, yeah, we kind of, we did an equivalent of the, uh, we, we did a little, uh, summer school publishing bootcamp kind of thing. Um, interesting. One summer after college, like a six week program, a little like the, the sitcom writing workshop in a way, but for people interested in publishing. Um, and so just like a summer school thing. So I met him doing that. We, we hit it off. We had, you know, kind of this instant, instant rapport. Um, and, uh, I thought he was hilarious and everything. And so I wasn't surprised when he eventually decided that he was gonna try to be a screenwriter. So then I move into the, I move into his, uh, terrible, messy apartment. Um, and, and I see like he is got a bunch of scripts. I'd never seen a script before. Uh, you know, it's kind of, it was pre-internet.You couldn't like, download scripts. It's like, oh, wow, this is weird. So that led me to reading scripts, talking to Aaron about what he was doing. Uh, you know, he very generously would ask me to read things he was working on and ask if I had any ideas or thoughts. Uh, and, and then, and then, and then Aaron suggested we were, we were having some conversation about the, uh, actually the NFL player's strike, uh, of the eighties. And he said, I always thought that would be an interesting movie. Um, so, uh, then he said, do you wanna try to write a movie about that with me? So together, we basically hammered out this, um, comedy that did not become the, was it a Keanu Reeves movie, but was The Replacements. Ours was called Substitute Heroes. And it was much like The Replacements. And, and that was the first thing we wrote together. And that ended up, um, we ended up selling that for a guild minimum to some place.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Greg Thompson:The substitution Heroes, where did you sell it? Football comedy. Yeah.Michael Jamin:AndGreg Thompson:Where did you want? And it ended up selling to like, uh, some producers for Guild minimum, um, low budget minimum, which was I think like $26,000 or something like that. Or maybe, maybe more. Uh, but that was, I, you know, obviously that would be thrilling even now to sell a movie for, you know, a little bit of money. So it was very thrilling to, to me and, um, and Aaron. And so, and then at the same time, like I'm working my LA Times job, and I wasn't enjoying that a ton. You know, I was in like this, I don't know, weird little group called Market Planning. And we'd do these like analyses of like Orange County advertising market and stuff that no one would ever look at. Um, and, uh, and the LA Times was a place, I always remember this. They would do casual Friday, one day a month.So you had to, you had to remember what Friday remember? Casual. Casual. That was before we were casual all the time. Yeah. Right. So you had to remember what Friday of the month was, casual Friday. So you could not wear your suit. Um, and then for our, uh, Christmas party, we had a, like an annual Christmas party. You'd have to come in an hour early that morning. And the, the Christmas party would be like, between the hours of 7:00 AM and 8:00 AM , or 8:00 AM and 9:00 AM I, I forget when work started , at least in my department, that's,Michael Jamin:You have to get up to your party. Some party.Greg Thompson:It wasn't . Yeah, no, it wasn't, it wasn't festiveMichael Jamin:.Greg Thompson:So it was that there was that kind of, it was that kind of play. So meanwhile, you know, then I'm like, you know, thinking, oh, well this, this screenwriting thing's working out great. I'll do that instead. Um, you know, and I think, you know, like, you know, we are getting a lot of meetings and I think, you know, in Hollywood, like a meeting sounds exciting. Yeah. It'll almost inevitably lead to nothing. But still for a moment you feel like, you know, you're driving on a lot, you have a pass, they're waiting for you, you sit down, someone brings you out water, you feel important. And, and it's, the people you're meeting with are almost always just filling their schedule to feel important. Yes. So you go in there and together, all of you feel important, and then you leave. ItMichael Jamin:Sounds like you're, you've listened to my podcast. Cause I've said these words many times.Greg Thompson:OhMichael Jamin:Yes, go important, but go on. Right. Then go. What happened?Greg Thompson:Uh, so then, um, I, I remember Aaron was like, he had this, um, he played like beach volleyball, uh, in this like league or something like that, even though he was terrible. ButMichael Jamin:I don't, I don't believe that part of his story,Greg Thompson:But, well, I'll say he was on a beach volleyball team. Whether you could describe it as playing, I don't know. But I think he was trying to beat girls. And so, but he, but there were a couple like TV writers in his, in the beach volleyball group, and he said, these guys are all doing great. They all have like, big houses. Uh, they're so successful. We should like, let's forget movies. Let's try to write television. So we started working on, uh, some spec scripts, as you know, I'm sure you've probably talked about that at different times. And, uh, you know, we wrote an Ellen, you know, and a spec is your sample to get hired onto a show. We wrote an Ellen that I thought was great, uh, that I still remember what it was about. It was about Ellen dates her assertiveness instructor and then can't break up with him because she's not assertive enough. Which,Michael Jamin:Funny.Greg Thompson:Well, well, for one thing, I, I don't know if there is such a thing as an assertive assertiveness instructor , I think it felt, it felt right to us in 1994 or so. Um, but, you know, but we thought, okay, we've nailed it. We've written one spec, now we're gonna, now our career will begin in television. And everybody hated it. And I mean, you've probably experienced this, or people experienced people who've felt this way. They fall in love with their spec. They think their spec is great. It's really the, the first spec they've written. And they become very, very attached to it. Not attached to every part of it. Every, every element. They're not receptive to notes. And I, I think I was certainly that way about this, this one, but the, uh, the feedback was so uniformly negative. It was like, okay, well let's , I think we have to write another one. So we wrote a Larry Sanders uhhuh, uh, a Larry Sanders spec, which went much better. It was just a much better show for us. It was more in our sensibility. It was. So, uh, that's the one that, uh, we ended up using to get into the, uh, Warner Brothers sitcom writing workshop.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And that, the rest, now Aaron, Aaron Abras was this, you know, we were both friends. One of the sweetest guys you ever met. And then he tragically died halfway through your career. And then I remember, I mean, it was just awful, but I remember either calling you or writing to you, and I was like, listen, cuz you had to reinvent your career at that point. You were, you had a writing partner that you relied on and you bounced things off. And then you had to become a solo writer. And I remember reaching out to you saying, listen, if, like, if you wanna, if you might need to write new samples, if you want help breaking a story or anything, like just call me receiver. Well, happy. But, but you never did. What wasGreg Thompson:That like? I re I re I I, I, I do remember that, and I still grateful for that. Uh, but you and Stever both reached out and were were terrific during that time. Um, it was, it was fortunate for me that I was on Bob's burgers. We had done, Aaron and I had done a season on Bob's, so, uh, it hadn't even aired yet. Um, but it was, I'm trying to think when it got it. Season two order, I guess it didn't get that until it had aired for a few, a few weeks. Um, once Bob's began airing and the show got picked up for another season, which was a little nip and tuck, cuz the ratings were a little, um, or touch and go rather, uh, uh, the Lauren and Jim offered me, you know, the opportunity to come back as a solo writer. Uh, so I, I did not have to produce those other specs. I did have to write a pilot that Aaron and I had been contracted to write. So I had to, I did have to finish the pilot. We'd outlined it, but we hadn't written it yet. And, um, I had to, I had to write it. But when you, that was, so that was the first thing I wrote.Michael Jamin:And was it like, even now, do you hear his voice? Like, do you think, what would Aaron do here? Or, or are you like, you know, now this is, are you, you know, areGreg Thompson:You Yeah, no, I I I, I still totally do. Uh, I mean, he was, he's such a funny guy and, you know, it was, you know, he used to say like, you know, the, unfortunately the funny person of the writing team died. So the, the, the guy who's like, does little, I don't even know what my specialty was, kind of doing things Aaron did, but a little less well founded. Uh, and, um, but yeah, no, I'll, I'll sometimes if I'm, if I'm writing and if a, a joke will occur to me, and I'll think that is an Aaron kind of joke, right. You know, that that's, that's his sensibility. So as much as I can cha uh, channel, uh, Aaron's voice, I, I I try to, um, he was, you know, just a unique voice.Michael Jamin:I imagine it would be honestly be a little paralyzing that first, at least the first couple of scripts you're like, I'm, I'm, I'm flying solo here.Greg Thompson:Yeah. Uh, and I, you know, I don't know how it is with you and Seaver, I think, you know, you, you do work separately at times. I know. Um, but, uh, every, everything Aaron and I had written, we'd written together in the same room. You know, we might go off and work on a scene by ourselves for a while and then share it, but mostly it was like kind of taking turns at a keyboard while the other guy was there in the room. Yeah. Uh, looking, you know, looking over the shoulder. So it was, uh, it was, you know, a pretty, um, uh, uh, close writing situation. So yeah, I just, um, I, I, I would do a couple tricks of, I would, I remember the, when I was writing the pilot, uh, it was like, okay, I'm gonna write the scenes that I think are easier to write first.Mm-hmm. . And so I wrote scenes out of order just to make progress. Right. Uh, and so then when you make a little progress, you begin to feel better, you begin to feel more confident. Um, right. And, and I also, and I still do this, I'll, I'll write a scene maybe with some, some of the dialogue at all caps, which is my way of saying this is not the dialogue. This is an approximation of what has to be said here in this moment. Uh, just to get through it, just to get through it so I don't get stuck. Um, yeah. Uh, because yeah, I mean, Erin and I would, we'd, we would try to do as little rewriting as possible, just maybe outta laziness. So we would kind of get a lot of consensus on everything before we wrote, uh, or as, you know, as we worked our way down the page. But as a, as a solo writer, I just couldn't do that. It was like, Nope, I'm, I'm gonna have to do more revisions, I'll have to do more passes. Um mm-hmm. . So that's what, that's what I started doing.Michael Jamin:And now does it just feel comfortable on your own or, you know, I, it's interesting,Greg Thompson:You know, I know it, it, it does and it doesn't, it always feels a little in like, you know, right now I'm, you know, trying to come up with story ideas to write one and looking at the calendar and looking at how much time I have, and I think, oh God, am I gonna have enough time to break it? And, uh, you know, holidays are coming up that's gonna cut into time. Uh, so I, I always have a little bit of panic, and I think I'm known for this on the show of being fairly neurotic about scripts, worried I won't put it together. Uh, cuz you know, there's so many, so many, Michael, you know, there's so many jokes in the script, it's like several hundred by the time you're done. And it's like, oh, how will I think of all those jokes?Michael Jamin:It's that, that's the part that's intimidating to me. It's the getting the story out. Well,Greg Thompson:Yeah, no, I mean, the story, you know, obviously the most important part. Um, but, you know, every element is hard. And so it's whatMichael Jamin:Now how mu like how is it run, how is it differently working on Bob's workers than it was either at Glen Martin or Kim King of the Hill for you? You know, the process.Greg Thompson:Uh, I'd say Bob's Berger's, it's much more, uh, you kind of become your own little executive producer of your episode all the way through production, you know, and basically, most of the times you will be coming up with the idea of your episode. You will be pitching it, you will be running the room, uh mm-hmm. as you, you know, put, uh, break the story. Uh, you know, then you're updating, you know, Lauren, the, and Laura, the showrunners. But you're, it's, it's kind of on you. It's, it's not, it's not like, and there will be people breaking stories simultaneously, which I guess was what we had at King of the Hill too. Yeah. Uh, a a few small rooms, um, but it isn't like probably most of television today still where it's everybody around a table, the whole staff breaking one story at a time. Right. With, you know, walking through the beats on a, on a board, kind of assembling it all, everybody, the staff, everybody together. It's, it's more individual. Uh, you, you, we kind of have more rope to, you know, make magic or get in trouble.Michael Jamin:And now you're doing, you're consulting, which is so interesting, just a couple days a week. Um, yeah. What, how's that for you working out? Everyone talks about what?Greg Thompson:It's,Michael Jamin:It'sGreg Thompson:Perfect. It's simultaneous with, it's simultaneous with C so it's, it's, it's hard to separate the two in a way. So it's, so far it's been people are beginning to come back to the office, but for the last two and a half years, it's been all Zoom.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Uh,Greg Thompson:And uh, I would say like, if I didn't have to like write scripts occasionally, it would be fent it would be so easy. I mean, not easy, but, but it's always like, you know, if you could sit back and give people pitches on their episode all day, and it's like, well, here's my idea. If it works, terrific. If it doesn't work, well , you know, it's not my problem. It it is. ButMichael Jamin:Do you think you'll stay there for, for a, for a while longer? What do you, what are your plans? Do you have any?Greg Thompson:I I, I, you know, I've just kind of taken it year by year. Uh, the, um, we'll see, um, I don't know. It's, it's still been a fun thing and, and most of the staff is the same staff as when we first grouped up 12 years ago.Michael Jamin:No one's, no one's leaving back, back when we started, um, uh, you know, we, you could jump shows, you might work on a show for a couple years, then jumped to another show. But now with the market, you'd be crazy to leave any show if you're on a show, you stay there and you hang on for dear life.Greg Thompson:I think so. I think so. I think that's been true of Bob's and, you know, uh, Wendy and Lizzie Molino, two of to have really, you know, very funny writers on, on Bob's. They did, they left only because they developed their own show, uh, the Great North. So, but despite that, they still have a hand in Bob's and write an episode a year. So nobody really wants to let go of Bob's.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And then, uh, yeah. Do you, are you developing at all? Have you tried to develop in recent years or,Greg Thompson:You know, I, past the first year, no, I haven't, I haven't tried to develop, and that's, you know, I have to say that's a little bit of laziness on my part. Like, you know, why do I wanna develop myself out of a job, this great job on Bob's? Uh, yeah. And, and also it was like, you know, we, Aaron and I, Aaron and I think did like eight or nine pilots, only one produced, but it was always really hard and, uh, a distressing experience. You'd, you'd, you know, we'd go in full of, full of ambition and hopes and dreams of how this next pilot was gonna be great. And then, and then you'd get so ground down by the process, we'd be miserable and hate, and hate our pilot by the end of it. Michael Jamin:People don't under no understanding, uh, of how the industry actually works. That's what I'm trying to educate them. But like we say the same things, like if we didn't have, if we were on full time staff, we, we wouldn't have to develop, we wouldn't run out to develop. It's only because staffs, the orders are so much shorter that you kind of have to, if you wanna make a living, you gotta sell what you gotta,Greg Thompson:Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, tell provision's changed, changed it that way. So so, you know, I'm a little embarrassed. I haven't, you know, tried to develop in the last decade, but I don't know, I'm just,Michael Jamin:So what, what advice do you have? Do you, I mean, are you bringing on any young writers or what advice do you have when you see a young writer join the show?Greg Thompson:Uh, well, boy, I don't know. I guess it would be the advice. Uh, I'd give any young writer, you know, just try to, try to pay attention to the voices of the show. Know the show, watch, watch every episode. You know, when we were hired on King of the Hill, I, I'd watched King of the Hill, but I hadn't seen everything. But, you know, I methodically started plowing through hundreds of episodes at that point. I think maybe 200 episodes had happened by the time we, we joined it. So, and that's just kind of an education and you internalize the voices of the characters and, and it, it helps you, it helps you know what to pitch. So, you know, we'll, we'll have, obviously, like a new writer will often like, pitch an episode idea that we've kind of already done. And, you know, it's hard to catch up with everything, but you have to try.Michael Jamin:Right.Greg Thompson:And just, I guess trust that you're, trust that you're there for a reason and that your ideas are good and, you know, do your best.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. But it's a pretty supportive environment there, it sounds like.Greg Thompson:Oh, it's great. Yeah. No, it's, it's really a nice group of people. Um, you know, you've been on many staffs and I was on many staffs, and I think my experience was almost always good. Uh, I hope yours was too. But you know, the, I think we probably all have both had the experience of being in a room where you're sitting in the same, you're around a table, same table every day. You're not only that, but you're seated in the same seat every day. Mm-hmm. , uh, same person to the left, same person to the right. And, and sometimes there will be people who will make a point of only laughing at, uh, somebody's, somebody several people's pitches, but never several other people's pitches.Interesting. Trying to, right. Yeah. I mean, uh, and, uh, it, it is a little bit of a, and this is, you know, it was rare to have this experience, but, you know, maybe did once or twice, um, pe writers are trying to get their jokes in. Uh, they would rather have their joke in than a funnier joke from somebody else. So there is that, there is that bit of competition. And I'm not saying I would have the funnier joke that no one would want in or anything like that, but, uh, uh, it's, it's this natural, um, selfishness, self-preservation, I guess. Yeah. Of like, right. I must, I must have a certain number of jokes in the, in the episode, or I'm not, I'm not earning my, my morsel of meat Yeah. Today. Yeah. So, um, so there, you know, there is a competitiveness. And I think, I think some shows, I think very could be bad miserable places. Um, Bob's was a fantastic place. Everybody was great. Right. Everybody was supportive. Uh, everybody was funny. Uh, everybody is funny. So many great writers. So it's been a, a fantastic situation.Michael Jamin:And how, and you say you were, you're involved heavily in the production. So you'll watch the animatics, you'll give notes on the air, or do you watch all the automatics or just the ones you, you produce?Greg Thompson:Uh, we watch all thematics and colors. Uh, but the animat, you know, for your own episode, you, you will be, you know, more involved in notes and revisionismMichael Jamin:Just forGreg Thompson:People. And the,Michael Jamin:The a animat are the rough, uh, before like crude sketches of the, uh, cartoon, the animation. And then you give notes on that. And then, then it's more like for blocking, which before the character should do and what kind of shot you have. And then later they color it in and, you know, that's, then you, you give notes on that as well. But you, are you also at the record? Are you, um, recording the actors?Greg Thompson:Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, we've done that a few different ways. In the beginning of the show, it was the, uh, Bob's was unique in this, in that they, you'd have multiple actors in, you know, on, on Mike, uh, at the same time. And it would be a simultaneous recording, so you'd have overlap mm-hmm. , uh, and improv. And that was kind of a hallmark of Bob's. And then in, uh, as c happened, we had to kind of break that apart and actors were recording in their homes, and so we were getting them one at a time. Right. Um, and so now it's, it's kind of a little combination of,Michael Jamin:But are you direct in a way, the actress yourselves or someone else? One of the store runners directingGreg Thompson:Lauren, Lauren was the director for like the first 10 years mm-hmm. every episode. And then during Covid we began to direct our own episodes. Right. Uh, but now we're actually in the process of having one writer direct all the episodes, uh, uh, with the, uh, a writer producer will direct all of them. And just so there's kind of a, a unified voice coming from the directing booth. Right. Um, and then Theri, the writer is also there to give notes and suggestions.Michael Jamin:Roll their eyes. You're doing it wrong.Greg Thompson:Yeah. I'd say, no, that's not, that's not, it's goes. So, yeah. And uh, I'd say Lauren is kind of constantly tinkering with the process, trying to improve it, even after like 12 years you think it would, things would be, okay, this is how we do it, this is how we'll always do it. But no, it's still being, aspects of production are being reinvented and tinkered with all the time.Michael Jamin:It's a great show. Cause it has such a sweetness to it, such an earnestness to, uh, who knew, who knew it was gonna be sort of giant.Greg Thompson:It does. It does. Uh, and I know early on, like, um, you know, Aaron and I would pitch, uh, coming from a, well, I guess working on every other show, we pitched a lot of, like, stories that involved conflict between the family, you know, uh, that was a little maybe sharper than Lauren wanted to do. Yeah. He didn't want, you know, his thing is he doesn't ever want the characters being mean to each other. Right. Anything perceived as mean. And so, like, you know, like, oh, if you're watching most sitcoms, it's like, oh, I don't know, everybody's, everybody does this all the time. You know what, so, but he wanted something sweetie.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And it's a good instinct. When we, we, when we worked for, uh, Chris Lloyd who, you know, he ran Frazier for many years, and then later we worked for Man Practice. He used to say the same things. He, he would say Velvet Gloves. So when the characters slapped each other, they had to be wearing velvet gloves. So you never wanna hit too hard. Everyone saw too hard, you know, I was like, oh, that's, that's smart. I'll start using that wordGreg Thompson:. I won't do it, but I'll use the word. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and, and certainly like, you know, one thing with the internet, now, you can see what everybody thinks of every episode and on Reddit. And do you guysMichael Jamin:Do that?Greg Thompson:Uh, Twitter? Do you go? Yeah. Yeah. DoesMichael Jamin:That change the way you write future episodes?Greg Thompson:I think a little, um, like we did an episode once where the family was on a game show, which is kind of an unusual episode for us. It was pretty early. And they end up kind of getting cheated out of their prize at the end of the game show. It's kind of a, they're kind of ripped off. Mm-hmm. and the ending, we thought, no, it's a great ending. It's, you know, it's, it's perfect. It's funny, it's, uh, it's television viewers hated the bels that that had happened to the Belchers that they'd been, it, it felt like an unsatisfying ending to many, many, many viewers. And they would keep bringing it up. In fact, they still bring it up, uh, online as, as a, an episode ending. They don't like, uh, and you know, I think maybe because it was an unearned, they hadn't really done anything wrong and they ended up being, you know, kind of robbed. So I think we, we avoid, we try to avoid lessons where they, or episodes where they just have complete egg on their face by the end. Right. There has to be some kind of little, little victory or something learned, something positive that comes outMichael Jamin:It. Yeah. That's interesting. It's interesting you take that few, cuz I never sire kind of does. I, I'm really kind, I stay away from, I don't want to hear about the reviews. I don't want to hear about what the viewers think, just wanna, you know, do my thing and cross my fingers. But it's, you know, different.Greg Thompson:I mean, that's probably healthier. But if it's an episode that I wrote that's airing, um, I just devour Twitter.Michael Jamin:Do you really?Greg Thompson:Trying to, trying to, uh, oh, yeah. No, I, I I definitely try to cherry pick , you know, any positive comments.Michael Jamin:We went on, geez, this is about a year ago, Sierra and I went on, I don't know when we went on YouTube to like, see what people were saying about Glen Martin. We hadn't watched the show in years. And, and then there's some guy from his basement, some young guy talking about the show and he nailed it. He, he was as if he was in the writer's room. Like he understood the show better, better than we did. And it was just hilarious to hear him take it apart. I was like, man, this guy,Greg Thompson:I think, did you send that around? Did you send that around to the writers? I kind of remember reading something that I thought, yeah, this guy's, this guy's good, thisMichael Jamin:Guy's, he was like a spy me. So much Funny .Greg Thompson:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Wow.Greg Thompson:That, oh, it was a funny, it was a funny show. Does that air, I mean, does that, how does that, as a quick aside, is Glen Martin accessible on anyMichael Jamin:Platform? I think, yeah, I think it's on YouTube where you can watch it all for free. So we don't get any, I mean, we have some points and we don't get any of it. I don't think you make money by showing,Greg Thompson:But it'sMichael Jamin:For free.Greg Thompson:Did some, I mean, did some kid upload it or is it, is it like they're all this, whoever owns it, put it, putMichael Jamin:It on Michael Eisner there as a whole, like maybe we get enough used, like he can even sell it again somewhere. I'm like, you know, yeah. Sell it somewhere. Let's, let's bring it back. But I don't think we've pushed band to bring it back. I can't, we reboot Glen Martin. I don't think there's anything there. Oh, that's funny.Greg Thompson:Oh. Oh,Michael Jamin:Well,Greg Thompson:Uh,Michael Jamin:Greg, is there any place, is there anything you wanna plug? Do you wanna talk about your next season? Should people follow you anywhere? Is there anything you wanna get off your chest before eight?Greg Thompson:Oh, well, God, I'm not really on Twitter. No. I mean, I can't, it's, I'm unfollowable on social media cuz um, I don't know. Just, uh, I guess keep watching. Uh, uh, I kind of forget where we are production-wise. I never know what episodes about to air. Yeah. Cause as you know, the, the production schedule in in animation is very long. It's almost don'tMichael Jamin:Without nine months with you guys in almost a year.Greg Thompson:Well, it can be, you know, if, especially if you know, the order changes. Right. And, andMichael Jamin:How manyGreg Thompson:Episodes do you get, you know, after production. But it's a longMichael Jamin:Time. What, what is your order this year? Like 22?Greg Thompson:Uh, I think it's 22. I think it's, yeah, Bob's is one of the last, you know, shows that still gets a 22 order. Uh, and it does less so now, but it did, you know, repeat a lot too. So there was residuals involved. Um, so, but fortunateMichael Jamin:It worked out.Greg Thompson:Um,Michael Jamin:,Greg Thompson:No. Let's see what I, I, I, uh, I would merely plug, uh, your,Michael Jamin:My Plus this in my Pod . All right. Everyone that well,Greg Thompson:Are you still doing the videos as uh, what? Oh, I was just asking if you're doing the video, the video, uh, podcast things as well. Yeah.Michael Jamin:These will air, yeah, they air they'll be on YouTube as well, and we run clips across media. Okay. People can, you know, they can get it everywhere. They can. Yeah. Continue following.Greg Thompson:Okay. It'sMichael Jamin:All part of that. Yeah. It's all, but that's, yeah. I, I, I, this has been fascinating hearing your story as far as I'm concerned, but ,Greg Thompson:But Greg,Michael Jamin:Thank you forGreg Thompson:I, I, uh, well, thank you. I hopeMichael Jamin:You're a good dude.Greg Thompson:Uh, thank, thank you for having me, Michael. I, you know, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of yours, uh, and, uh, yeah, honored.Michael Jamin:Oh God, this is my honor. But alright, everybody, thank you so much to great comic comedian, writer Greg Thompson. And, uh, yeah. So what, let me tell you what else is going on over here. So keep, if you guys wanna sign up for my watch list, that's my free newsletter where I send out daily tips for screenwriters and creative types at Michael jam.com/watchlist and keep following us here. And, uh, yeah, we have different content on YouTube. Our YouTubes at Michael Jam, writer and, uh, Instagram. Keep follow My Instagram, the TikTok Act. Michael Jam writer. All right, everyone. Thank you so much, Greg. Thank you. Until next week for more people. All right. Be good.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

A quick discussion between TBL Coaches Ben Rogers and Larry Sanders, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 10th Dad's Toolbelt, recorded on November 29th, 2022. Our hope as leaders is to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action to improve their parenting game. For business inquiries, please visit www.tblcoaching.com or email brogers@tblcoaching.com. The mission of TBL Coaching is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

February 6-12, 1999 This week Ken welcomes comedian and old friend Dave Ross to the show. Ken and Dave talk about changing NYC's nickname, apples, Jersey City, how amazingly great George Clooney is, Middletown and Newburgh NY, bands in North and Central NJ, 90s and 00s punk, hating masculinity, rage, angry dudes, watching bands, tour dates, Toad's Place, punching people, awful hardcore bands, 1999, realizing you remember way more TV than you thought, the amazing movies of the 90s, George Carlin, Mulan, Cops in Palm Beach, stand up on Comedy Central, Premium Blend with the US Bombs, Jeff Foxworthy, Brett Butler, Backstreet Boys on pay per view, Mad TV over SNL, The Simpsons, LA Confidential, Newsradio, loving 90s sitcoms, being obsessive, regional stores, fast food, Tom Green, Big Brother, Survivor, The Real World, Road Rules, Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, Spin City, Hannity and Combs, Michael Chiklis, Wired, theater nerds, tough guys, Mad About You, Kids in the Hall, Stephen Root, King of the Hill, The Drew Carey Show, Beverly Hills 90210, Party of Five, William Ragsdale, Veronica's Closet, Just Shoot Me, The Powers that Be, dark humor, suicide jokes, making jokes about tough things, loving John Leguizamo, Boy Meets World, WGN, Wayne's Brothers, Jaime Foxx, how great  Steve Harvey is, Richard Karn, Larry Sanders, Nash Bridges, vampires, Talk Soup, wondering where John Henson went, Behind the Music, shows starting at weird times, Bruce Willis, Ally McBeal, Tracy Ulman, Providence, being mad about too many dogs, and the beauty of catching up.

A quick discussion between TBL Coaches Ben Rogers and Larry Sanders, Dad's Toolbelt is posted monthly. This is the 9th Dad's Toolbelt, recorded on October 27th, 2022. Our hope as leaders is to inspire listeners to get off the bench and take tangible action to improve their parenting game. For business inquiries, please visit www.tblcoaching.com or email brogers@tblcoaching.com. The mission of TBL Coaching is to build an army of Disciplined Leaders. Thanks for helping us build the army!

A Man accused of murdering his friend while on a fishing trip has one whopper of an excuse for his alleged behavior: According to Larry Sanders (no, not THAT Larry Sanders) he had no other choice but to kill his friend, Jimmy Knighten after Knighten threatened to summon bigfoot to eat Sanders. No signs of the Squatch have been found.(commercial at 6:54)to contact me:bobbycapucci@protonmail.comsource:https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/the-man-who-murdered-his-friend-and-blamed-it-on-bigfoot/ar-AAZYyz1?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7074d1bb04fa45d182c99015d3e5b245

Aug. 12-18: Breaking Bad hops a train, Larry Sanders hits the air, Bridget Fonda gets a roommate, Robert Evans stays in the picture, a painting of Jesus gets ‘improved', John Ritter's trapped in TV, a girls sports movie hits the beach, a kid gets leafy, classic horror for kids from Nickelodeon and Laika, and Ross Perot hears sucking. All that and more, this week on Thirty Twenty Ten.

Colin Hay (lead vocalist from Men At Work) joins Ralph Sutton and James Mattern and they discuss Colin Hay moving from Scotland to Australia, meeting Ron Stykert, the invention of avocado toast and the best way to eat vegemite, touring with Ringo Starr, Down Under becoming a dance hit, facing litigation, Colin Hay's relationship with Gary Shandling, a live performance of Down Under, Colin Hay's first concert, first drug and first sexual experience and so much more!(Air Date: May 7th, 2022)Support our sponsors!RockAuto.com- Check out Rock Auto for the best prices on all auto parts!YoKratom.com - Check out Yo Kratom (the home of the $60 kilo) for all your kratom needs!The SDR Show merchandise is available at https://podcastmerch.com/collections/the-sdr-showYou can watch The SDR Show LIVE for FREE every Wednesday and Saturday at 9pm ET at GaSDigitalNetwork.com/LIVEOnce you're there you can sign up at GaSDigitalNetwork.com with promo code: SDR for a 14-day FREE trial with access to every SDR show ever recorded! On top of that you'll also have the same access to ALL the shows that GaS Digital Network has to offer!Follow the whole show on social media!Colin HayTwitter: https://twitter.com/colinhayInstagram: https://instagram.com/colinhayJames L. MatternTwitter: https://twitter.com/jameslmatternInstagram: https://instagram.com/thejamesmatternRalph SuttonTwitter: https://twitter.com/iamralphsuttonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamralphsutton/The SDR ShowTwitter: https://twitter.com/theSDRshowInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesdrshow/GaS Digital NetworkTwitter: https://twitter.com/gasdigitalInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/gasdigital/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Former NBA vet Larry Sanders comes by to chat about his post-playing career. One of the most unique players of the 2010's, Sanders has since moved into the creative entertainment space, and details how he's thriving in his recent endeavors. Stream for free on Hisense Smart TVs, LG Channels, Sports on Tubi, Plex, Samsung TV Plus, The Roku Channel, Vizio Channels fubosportsnetwork.com, and XUMO or as part of fuboTV's subscription packages of 100+ sports, news and entertainment channels. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices