Podcasts about portable church

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Ted Coniaris, lead pastor of Community Christian Church in the greater Chicagoland area. After an intentional and extended succession process with founding pastor Dave Ferguson, Ted has stepped into the lead role during a pivotal season for the church. In this conversation, he shares what it looks like to lead through transition, clarify vision, and build a disciple-making ecosystem for the future. A transition built on trust and clarity. // Ted describes a multi-year succession process that included months of private conversations, an 18-month apprenticeship, and a highly visible transition with full support from church leadership. One of the most unique elements was launching a new vision before the transition was complete. While unconventional, this approach created immediate alignment and buy-in across the church. Because the process was prayerful, transparent, and unified, the congregation experienced less anxiety than expected, resulting in what Ted describes as a surprising sense of peace and readiness for what's next. Renovating, not rebuilding. // Ted uses the language of “renovation” to describe the church's next chapter. Community Christian Church has a rich 37-year history of helping people find their way back to God, especially those far from faith. Rather than starting from scratch, Ted is focused on building on that foundation while addressing a critical gap: what happens after people come to faith? This has led to a renewed focus on creating a clear and intentional disciple-making ecosystem. A bold, layered vision for the future. // Ted outlines a four-part vision that builds sequentially: every heart on fire, every person a pastor, every child and student equipped, and every neighborhood a thriving church. This framework begins with spiritual passion—not just participation—emphasizing that people today are searching for something deeper than casual faith. From there, the vision moves toward activating every believer in ministry, taking seriously the priesthood of all believers. The end result is a multiplying movement of disciples impacting communities at scale. Rethinking discipleship through Growth Track. // To support this vision, the church is developing a clear pathway called Growth Track, built around three movements: Alpha, Disciple, and Pastor. The goal is not just information or assimilation, but transformation and activation. Ted emphasizes helping every person identify their calling, answering the question, “Who am I called to reach?” This reframes discipleship from passive participation to active mission. Ancient practices for modern renewal. // One of the more surprising shifts has been a return to ancient spiritual disciplines. Through rhythms like “Ignite Week”—a church-wide season of prayer, fasting, and reflection—Ted is seeing increased spiritual intensity across all age groups. These rhythms create deeper roots than one-time events, shaping both individual lives and the overall culture of the church. A multiplying model through microchurches. // In addition to strengthening internal discipleship, Community Christian is expanding outward through a rapidly growing microchurch movement. With hundreds of microchurches already launched globally, the model focuses on simple, scalable principles: low control, high support, and strong coaching relationships. Rather than centralizing growth in large gatherings, this approach empowers everyday people to lead and reach others in their own contexts—creating the potential for exponential impact. The leader's soul is the strategy. // Ted closes with a powerful reminder: the most important strategy a leader has is their own spiritual health. Passion for God, integrity, and relational support are foundational. Ministry is difficult, but leaders who tend their own spiritual lives and refuse isolation will be better equipped to lead others effectively. To learn more about Community Christian Church, visit communitychristian.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super excited to have you listening in today. GI gotta be totally honest. I asked this person to come on today to have a bit of an update conversation from a conversation we had out just over a year ago. I’m really excited for this because it’s kind of fun to follow along with this story. And this is an area that really is, applies to all of our churches and I want all of us to lean in. And so pay attention, whether you’re cutting your grass or whatever you’re doing for the next 30 minutes, it’s going to be a great conversation.Rich Birch — We’ve got Ted Coniaris with us. He is the lead pastor at a fantastic church, a multi-site church in the greater Chicagoland area called Community Christian. They have, if I’m counting correctly, seven physical locations, as well as micro churches that meet in homes throughout the week and online space, plus community freedom locations, which meet in correctional facilities across the region as well. Ted, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Ted Coniaris — Thanks, Rich. Really glad to be here. Great to see you again. We get to cross paths a few times a year, so it’s always great to connect. Appreciate the time.Rich Birch — I appreciate you you taking time to come on and and connect. Friends that are listening in, just kind of bringing you up to speed. We’ll link to the previous episode if you want to go back and and check that. But the last time we talked, you were apprenticing as the lead pastor at Community Christian under Dave Ferguson. And I think that was a year ago. And you you know there’s all the steps. I think you were step three, step four, somewhere in there. Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — And there was this handoff on the horizon. And now we’re on the other side of that. And so that’s part of why I wanted to get you on. Here we are a year later. Let’s talk about those things. You’re still there. So that’s a good thing.Ted Coniaris — I mean, as far as you know, this could be a fake backdrop. Who knows?Rich Birch — Yeah, true this is the… Yeah, so you know what? You were…Ted Coniaris — No, it is true.Rich Birch — It takes a lot of time. Talk to us through, you know, what’s happened since then. Talk us about that transition. Kind of bring us up to speed.Ted Coniaris — Absolutely. So as you said, we went through an 18 month apprenticeship, but before that we had about six, eight, probably eight months of conversations just Dave and I, before we went above ground with elders and everything else, maybe even a little longer than that. So it was quite a long process walking through our apprenticeship process as a church and really wanting to do that at the highest level, just like we do at every level of leadership as a church. Ted Coniaris — So that was an amazing process. Dave is an incredible leader and even better man and somebody that it was a great privilege to spend more and more time with him. He and Sue—his wife—Melissa and I spending time with them, and then John and and Lisa, his brother and his wife. We spent a lot of time together, so it was great. And then since then, May, they’re still around. They’re still a part of our church. Dave is now the CEO of Exponential, spending full time doing that.Ted Coniaris — And John is leading something called the Chicago Collective, which is a network of churches, networks of churches throughout Chicagoland, working to plant more churches, which we desperately need in Chicago area. So if you’re listening, you’re like, man, I’m thinking about planning a church in Chicago. Please reach out to me. I would love to help you do that. We desperately need more more churches here.Ted Coniaris — So since then, it’s been great. Honestly, there’s been so much change, so many things going on, but it’s truly, truly been really, really good. I think I’m tired in the right ways. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — I’m probably also tired in some of the wrong ways too… Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — …but it’s been a great it’s been a great transition.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. You know, when we you were on last time, you were talking about really stewarding the mission of the future, while also chasing new vision, which is, is at that phase kind of easy to say, you’re like, okay, we’re looking forward to the future. Now you’re in the seat. And it’s like, you got to keep doing that. Now that you’re sitting there.,you know, what’s become clearer for you as you’ve thought about the next chapter and, and, you know, as you think about the future, what are, cause there may be some questions you’re wrestling with as you’re thinking, you know, up over to the horizon. Yeah. What are the things that are, are, are bubbling in your brain on that front?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, great question. I mean, so much has become more clear. But one of the great gifts that I felt like the Lord gave us as a church in this transition on the very front end was a real clarity and unity around our new vision as a church. It’s not so typical to launch a new vision for the church before the transition has even occurred. And I wouldn’t recommend that in other situations, but it just, the way that it went with us, this just felt like what the Lord was leading us to do.Ted Coniaris — So we actually actually launched the new vision for the church while Dave was still the lead pastor. And he stood right there beside me and in full support with our elders and everyone else. And so it was actually unique in that way. But that’s just really been confirmed. Honestly, that’s been one of the biggest things that I am grateful for through this process is just the Lord’s gift of clarity on the front end and just giving me ah real clear direction to run. Ted Coniaris — And I would say too, that there’s a big difference between a transition that’s been prayed over for years. Rich Birch — That’s good. Right, right.Ted Coniaris — It just lands differently than a transition.That’s just like been negotiated in some back room somewhere. You know, it’s like this…Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — This has been prayed through and put above ground and has been a really healthy, visible process that I think resulted in the church just being wide open, saying, yeah, this feels right. This feels good. And we’re in. And so almost it’s like a a sense of exhale that I’ve been experiencing, which has surprised me…Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Ted Coniaris — …in the church.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — I thought there would be more anxiety in the transition. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — But there’s really been like a quiet permission-giving that’s happened.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good.Ted Coniaris — Almost like, you know, just the family knew the transition was healthy so they could just sort of relax into it and say, okay, what’s next?Rich Birch — Right. Right.Ted Coniaris — And in hindsight, what felt a little crazy of launching the vision now feels like if we hadn’t have done that, we would have missed a real amazing opportunity because people were really bought in right from the get-go, which has been great.Rich Birch — Well, and what, yeah, that’s great. And in hindsight, being able to look back at that moment and saying like, no, like, yeah, maybe not the kind of thing that you write in a book and say, that’s the way to do it. But it’s like, we did that. And there’s in hindsight, man, amazing to have kind of both of your endorsements on the future direction. And like, Hey, we’re excited to be going in this direction. There was a mutual support there that ended up accelerating pointing things to the future. That’s incredible. That’s great.Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And so now it’s really…Go ahead. Sorry.Rich Birch — No, you go ahead. You go. Go ahead.Ted Coniaris — Okay. Yeah. Now it’s in the season where it’s how do we take that vision, that sort of north star for the future and building on their 37-year history as a church that’s been so rich and good in and move in this new direction, but also be aligned with our past.Ted Coniaris — You know, it’s not about tradition, but it is about, you know, God has been doing a unique and wonderful thing here that we want to continue in, but also kind of build on what’s next. So I felt like as a church, one of our great strengths as community, and this is really a reflection of Dave and John, is we’re a community where everyone is welcome. Like that that’s without a doubt. Anybody and everybody can walk through these doors and probably tens of thousands of people have over these last 37 years, and found their way back to God. It’s incredible. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing.Ted Coniaris — I mean, when it comes to that zero to one, those people finding the Lord from a really hard spot, man, God has just used this church in such miraculous and amazing ways for so long. And we want to keep that. Like we love that about this place and just think it’s an amazing amazing strength of this community. But now we want to answer sort of the next question, which is now what? So everyone’s welcome.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — Now what? Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And so we want to build on that path towards what’s in the future. And the way we’re talking about it here is sort of renovating our disciple-making ecosystem, which is a big mouthful. But you know it’s renovating, and it’s a certainly a lot of you know jargon, but bear with me for a second.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — You know, we’re renovating because we’re not starting from scratch.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — We’ve got a great house, a great church.Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — Things are great. It’s time for a renovation. And what we’re renovating is a very clear, focused outcome, which is disciple-making. And I think that’s an area where we have not been as strong over the years. It’s like that first part of the journey. And we have a lot of evangelists here and we’re passionate. We want to keep that. But we also want to answer that that: now what? That disciple-making ecosystem. And it’s an ecosystem because not any one thing, this program doesn’t make you a disciple-making church. Rich Birch — Right, right. Ted Coniaris — Or just a good teacher doesn’t make you a disciple-making church. It’s all of these things kind of together create an environment and a path for that to happen. And so we’re just renovating all of those things with the vision, teaching, creating new rhythms as a church, and also creating a, for the first time for us at least, a clear disciple making process, which we’re we’re calling it Growth Track.Ted Coniaris — And a lot of churches use that term. But just trying to say, okay, our vision is to see every person step into their God-given calling to be a pastor. If every person is a pastor, it’s like, what if we actually took the priesthood of believers seriously? Right? And how would that change our disciple-making process if that was the end result? Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Right? I think a lot of times we can slip into being really like our disciple-making becomes more about assimilation. Or more about collecting a certain level of information or knowledge or even practice.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.Ted Coniaris — But we’re trying to have a different output. We want to see people finding their way back to God, which has always been the core of our mission, and then released as pastors in the world and equipped to do that. Ted Coniaris — And so what’s our process for taking someone from a seeker to a pastor. We really didn’t have that. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — And so we’re in the process right now of just building all of that out, aligning all of our teams and creating just a clear answer to that, that “now what” question.Rich Birch — Yeah, love that. And, you know, that makes sense for a church of of this age. You know, people have changed, you know, what we used to call seekers or the people that were arriving, they’re different. It’s like the most obvious thing to say, but people are different today than they were 37 years ago when this ball got rolling. Rich Birch — And and what what are some of those early changes that you’ve made to renovate? What are some of those things that that do look a little bit different or are are, you know, kind of pointing in a new direction? Where where what are you learning on that that front?Ted Coniaris — Well, obviously the first one is the new vision, and I’ll just share that really, really quickly.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — But it’s, and they all build on each other. That’s really the the key for us. And while this is unique to Community Christian Church, it’s not a vision that’s unique to Community Christian Church. Like, I think this is really like a biblical thing, but it starts with every heart on fire.Ted Coniaris — And it talks about, when you ask the question about what’s different, I think one of the things that’s really different, people aren’t looking just for a place to blend in the background and be like, oh, this is cool.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — You’re cool Jesus followers. I’m cool. We can be cool together. This is cool. That is, that is… Rich Birch — That’s amazing. I love it. Ted Coniaris — That is not what the next generation is looking for. Rich Birch — No.Ted Coniaris — They are looking for fire.Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — They are looking for passion. And rightfully so. Rightfully so. Thank God for that. Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And so we want to lean into it. We don’t want to be a place where everybody’s buddies with Jesus. We want to create a place where people are consumed by him. Rich Birch — That’s good. Ted Coniaris — Just like the disciples on the road to Emmaus talked about, you know, we’re not our hearts beating or burning within us when they talk with Jesus along the road. That’s that’s the kind of community we want to be, a consumed community. And that’s the starting place for everything else. Everything else. And that’s not just emotionalism. It’s a passion for. It’s it’s a a focus on. Ted Coniaris — The second part, which builds on that, it’s not even worth going to the second part if you don’t do the first thing. The second part is every person a pastor, right? Because if you start with every person a pastor, but the heart’s not on fire, there’s not a passion and a consuming focus, you know, what kind of pastors are you raising, right?Rich Birch — Right, right.Ted Coniaris — It’s not the kind that the world needs. And so it’s every heart fire, then every person a pastor just really taking seriously the priesthood of all believers. I’m not the pastor, you know. You all are the pastors. I function as a pastor in this context, but you function as a pastor in whatever context God has placed you.Ted Coniaris — And if we could do those two things, if we can have every heart and fire and every person released into their God-given calling as a pastor, then maybe we could accomplish the third thing, which is every child and student equipped. Rich Birch — Wow. Yep.Ted Coniaris — Because that’s going to take all hands on deck. What our kids, what my kids, I have 16, 14, and 10-year-old, all boys. So please pray for us. But what what my boys are facing today, it’s like the challenges I faced have been weaponized and placed in the hands of every single kid. And yet our student and youth ministry, our kids and and student ministry, looks almost identical to what it did look like 37 years ago. Why is that? I mean, there’s different strategies, practice in those sort things.Rich Birch — That doesn’t make sense. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — But if you look at like the form even of itself, we’re like, it kind of looks the same. It looks sort of like the youth group I went to as a kid. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — And I think we need to be doing a lot more and investing more in the next generation in in relational deep ways. But it can’t happen without every heart and fire and every person being a pastor. And if we can do that, every heart of fire, every person pastor, every child and student equipped, then we can accomplish the Great Commission, right? Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And that’s really the last part of the vision, which is every neighborhood a thriving church. Because the way you change the world is by having you know a community of Christ followers, place where Jesus is King, we’re on mission together within arm’s reach of every person on the planet.Ted Coniaris — You know that’s, that’s the plan. And so that’s what we’re targeting and going after. So that’s different. And so for us to do those things, there’s things we’re trying to change and layer in behind that. Really renovating our teaching ministry. We’re kind of going old school. We’re going back through like long series, books of the Bible, just walking through scripture, teaching people the Bible, just like the disciples on that road to Emmaus. You know, that was when Jesus opened the scriptures to them. It’s lit this fire inside of them.Ted Coniaris — I think that’s even more necessary. 37 years ago, basically a Christian culture-ish. Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — Today, not so much. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — So nobody’s walking through the doors with like this biblical knowledge. They’re walking through the doors with nothing.Rich Birch — That’s so true, yeah.Ted Coniaris — And so, you know, we need to do that. So we’re doing that, creating rhythms in our calendar years. A lot more I could say about that. Spiritual disciplines communally, not just as individuals, feels maybe like a little spin on liturgical calendars of old. Rich Birch — Yep. Ted Coniaris — We’re embracing some of that in a new way for us.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And then this this Growth Track is a big part of that. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — And then there’s there’s more beyond that, but that’s just a few of the things.Rich Birch — Dude, I love it. I love I love the how those four layer on. I love the focus. I think it totally just feels right on with where you know culture’s at. Could you unpack a little bit of what you’re doing with Growth Track? What does that look like, that particular tactic in the… You know I think the idea of every person a pastor is a very compelling, that’s like a lean-in, “what did you just say?” kind of thing. Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — And then but what are you, you know, help us, help us understand, you know, a little bit of that, what you’re doing with Growth Track to kind of point towards that.Ted Coniaris — You mean like the mechanics of it or like just the overall strategy?Rich Birch — Yeah. How’s it work? What are you teaching there? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What, yeah, what’s, what is it?Ted Coniaris — Well, it’s all…Rich Birch — How’s it work?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, we’re getting ready to to launch it all this fall. Rich Birch — Great. Ted Coniaris — And yeah, we’re really excited about it. But essentially, it’s it’s three steps. “One. Life. Go.” is kind of how we talk about the Growth Track. And the first step is tried and true. It’s Alpha. Rich Birch — Yep. Ted Coniaris — I think Alpha is probably the single greatest tool available… Rich Birch — Sure. Sure. Ted Coniaris — …to help you know my friends and neighbors and family find their way back to God. I I love Alpha. I’m running an Alpha right now at an office with a buddy and his partners, all the partners of his business.Rich Birch — Yep. Ted Coniaris — We’re doing Alpha together over lunch. It’s amazing.Rich Birch — Love it.Ted Coniaris — So Alpha is step one.Ted Coniaris — Step two, we call disciple because disciple is both a noun and a verb. It’s who you are and it’s what you do. And so it’s, you know, we’ve used Rooted in the past as a church and Rooted is fantastic. We love Rooted. It’s been helpful to for us. But we felt like there were ways in which we wanted to adjust that to our context a little bit more… Rich Birch — Sure. Ted Coniaris — …and also have an opportunity for people to make a commitment to the church. We don’t do membership, but we do ask people to commit to belonging here. And honestly, I think that’s a big missing step in the overall discipleship of a lot of like churches like ours. Because if you don’t have a commitment, and there’s just kind of growth that happens in your life that only can happen in a committed relationship. And it’s not about you committing to me. It’s really about us committing to each other. And when we do that, it opens the door to a different layer and level of transformation in your own life.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that.Ted Coniaris — And committing to that unity on the front end is is really important. And so we want to do that. We also do several other things a part of that, but that’s kind of a general idea. Ted Coniaris — And then the third step is pastor. That’s the goal. That’s where we’re going.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — It’s also a noun and a verb, right? Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Cool.Ted Coniaris — It’s who you are and it’s what you do. Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And this is designed to do that. So we took some learnings actually from Brian Sanders, and he has something called the Calling Lab. He does the Tampa Underground down in Florida.Ted Coniaris — He’s done some great work on that.Ted Coniaris — And it’s essentially a similar process of triangulating your true sense of calling. We want everybody in our church to be able to say, I exist to help blank find their way back to God. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Like, who are you called to reach?Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Because what’s a starting ground for someone to be a pastor? You know, like, is it education? Is it more this, more that? Well, I think the journey of learning and growing and honing your gifting, it has to start with the calling. And I think there are so many people who just, they don’t know how to finish that sentence. Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — Even if it is your kids or your neighbors or your coworkers, have you really done the work? Have you invested to say, no, these are the people, like names and faces that I’m called to reach. And then I’m released into that context as a pastor. So when I show up to work, I want to show up. I’m the pastor of BMO Harris Bank today because that’s where I work and I’m a teller there.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — you know I’m the pastor of You know, my neighborhood and in Downers Grove, in my part, my north, you know, little west quadrant there. That’s what I want to show up. That’s what I want our whole church showing up as. Thousands and thousands of pastors released into every arena of life. And so a lot of churches have Growth Track, or something like it. We’re really trying to say, okay, what’s what is the unique thing that that we’re feeling Lord’s calling us to produce here? And that’s it. And so we’ve designed these steps to work together to produce that that thing in us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very cool.Ted Coniaris —Hope that’s helpful.Rich Birch — I love that. Oh, it’s super helpful. I love I love what you’re doing there. And that’s thanks for taking the time to unpack that. Rich Birch — Pivoting in a slightly different direction, we were together at Exponential at Dave’s event. And well, it’s not Dave’s event. I understand that. At the Exponential conference. And we were at a breakfast together. And you mentioned about some just kind of in passing some stuff that was going on at the church that was and part of it was some of this around spiritual vitality, you’re seeing that increase.Rich Birch — I’m assuming that some of these, you know, pieces of these puzzles coming together. But then you also talked about the kind of growth of your microchurch, you know, planting movement that’s connected to Community. Could you unpack that a little bit more? Tell us a little bit about, you know, that that, how does that fit into the whole story that God’s writing here?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, I think the spiritual vitality, I’ll start there. The way we talk about it a lot is it just feels like everywhere you go, the spiritual temperature is just increasing. In kids, in students, in adults, our small groups, in our services, it’s just across the board. There’s just like an increased heat or passion around our faith.Ted Coniaris — I think a part of that is is truthfully in a season of transition, there’s always an opportunity to be open to something new. And we’ve been trying to really place our focus on, well, what’s the new thing? Like, how what is the condition of your heart? Are you on fire, truly on fire? I think putting that question, that vision in front of us as a church has been refining – that in and of itself. Ted Coniaris — But we’ve also just seen, I mean, there’s so much I could speak to on this, but one of the things I’m just really excited about is what’s happening with our students right now. We talk a lot about students being the leaders of tomorrow’s church, but I’ll tell you here, they’re the leader of today’s church. Rich Birch — So true. Ted Coniaris — I mean, they are setting a tone with passion and a desire.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s very true.Ted Coniaris — Like we do our services. I’m at the Yellow Box location, right? It’s our Naperville church here. And teaching here on Sunday. And there’ll be a group of students that will just come and sit on the ground in front of the stage… Rich Birch — Right. Right. Ted Coniaris — …have their Bibles open with their notebook, taking notes. And then during worship, it’s like they’re in the pit of a concert. You know, they’re at the stage, hands up.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, it’s true.Ted Coniaris — And you’ve got a room full of thousands of adults watching this and they’re leading us. Nobody asked them to do it. Nobody told them to do that.Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — So I think some of it, I point to that. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.Ted Coniaris — Others other parts of it is we’ve really kind of pushed our chips into the middle on some of the ancient stuff instead of new trendy stuff… Rich Birch — Yeah. Ted Coniaris — …specifically prayer and fasting.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool. Tell me more about that. I’d love to hear about that.Ted Coniaris — So yeah, earlier I talked about, you know, we’re embracing the calendar rhythms as a church.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — I really believe that, you know, rhythms are so much more powerful than events because, you know, an event is just a drop in the ocean. But if you can build some rhythms, you could actually build some roots. Rich Birch — That’s cool.Ted Coniaris — And, you know, our most valuable resources, our people, and our most valuable real estate is our calendar. And so we’ve said, you know, three times a year as sort of the calendar turns and that’s sort of the rhythm of our community. There’s sort of three seasons, there’s winter, there’s fall and there’s spring/summer. So to launch those seasons, we do what we now call an Ignite Week where we ask the whole church to commit to a full week of prayer and fasting. Rich Birch — Wow. Very cool.Ted Coniaris — And then we have intentional programming in that week to do like a full spiritual reset to say, okay, God, what are you saying to me right now? For the individual, we have like prayer and fasting guides to help guide people through that experience. For the groups, we do these discipleship conversations where we want everybody in each group to say, okay, what is God saying to me right now? And what am I doing to say yes to him?Ted Coniaris — And then for our locations, we take a break from all of our regular series stuff and we do Hearts on Fire Sunday. And we just say, okay, God, what are you doing here? What are you doing today? What are you doing right now? And it feels very different than our regular Sundays. Ted Coniaris — And then for the church as a whole, all of our locations together, we do what we call our Ignite Gathering on Saturday morning. It’s actually coming up this Saturday. And we just gather the whole church together. And what’s happened in these Ignite Gatherings is really exciting. It feels like a a catalyst for the rest of the church. Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — It’s like the church we’re going to be a year from now, we get to see in that room on Saturday morning. Rich Birch — That’s very cool.Ted Coniaris — And ah after a week of prayer and fasting, gathering the church together to worship, to break the fast together in communion, it’s it’s powerful. Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — I mean, it is powerful. The environment of that space is so different There’s such a hunger for the Lord and honestly, a true actual physical hunger after all that fasting.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Ted Coniaris — But it’s it’s it’s really changing the whole, as I said earlier, this ecosystem of our church. so those are some of the real important you know pieces of that ecosystem. Rich Birch — Oh, I love that. Yeah, I love that. And and um it isn’t isn’t it interesting? So we’re seeing lots of that kind of things or echoes of that across the country where, you know, there’s a there’s been a shift that, you know, we’ll probably understand better five years from now. We’ll look back and we’ll put all the pieces together and understand what God’s doing. But it does appear like, you know, the Spirit’s on the move. They say, what is that? Aslan’s on the move, right? Something is shifting in people. And you know, we’re trying to keep pick keep pick up keep up with it and do what we can to continue to steward what’s here.Rich Birch — And my experience with, you know, our our churches would have similar backgrounds, similar history. You know, we’re a heart for people who don’t, and your church has a heart for people who who don’t follow Jesus. You know, we’re trying to create a space for those folks. But though my experience has been those people are different today than they were 20 years ago. That people are coming much more, it’s like they’re farther along in the process. They’re they’re much more engaged than than um than they have been in the past. And so they’re willing to jump into the deep end of the pool on some of this stuff, maybe even more quickly than our long-term people… Ted Coniaris — Yeah, I think that’s true. Rich Birch — …because of whatever God’s doing in in their life. That’s that’s, yeah, that’s really interesting. That’s a cool thing to, you know, to be a part of, to hear you know a part of that. What about on the microchurch side? What’s happening there?Ted Coniaris — Yeah.Rich Birch — What is that? Yeah, what’s that? What’s happening with that?Ted Coniaris — So during COVID, we just sort of began dipping our toe in the water of starting microchurches under this belief that the macrochurch movement, even megachurch, doesn’t need to be at odds or in conflict with the house church and microchurch movement. Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — Like, is there way for us to just see that as one thing instead of competing things, reaching all different kinds of people? And so we’ve just kind of dipped our toe in that. And here we are a few years later. Took us few years kind of figure out what we wanted to do. Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — We’ve been doing it for about three years now. We have you know somewhere around, i was just texted the guy for the today number because it’s growing so fast, somewhere around 350 microchurches all around the world.Rich Birch — Wow.Ted Coniaris — And it’s it’s a simple, simple, simple strategy where you’re just basically saying anybody in the world, anybody on planet Earth, feeling called the planet Earth or maybe you already have and you don’t know what to do with it. Rich Birch — Right.Ted Coniaris — And what’s interesting is that there are, I don’t know how many people, but there are a lot of people on this Earth. And a lot of people are asking that exact question and they just need someone who’s going to say, we can help you. We can help you.Rich Birch — Interesting.Ted Coniaris — We want to help you do that. We want to coach you, train you, and then set you up with a cohort of others doing the same thing to help you do it in a sustainable fashion. It’s it’s very low investment. It’s very low control, but it’s super high results.Rich Birch — Yeah. Huh.Ted Coniaris — And so it’s it’s sort of a little mind shift because a lot of times we want to have everything controlled. We want to have everybody’s theology statement. We want to have all this stuff. We want to know it’s going to be successful. We want to da-da-da-da-da. It’s like we’re not doing any of that. We obviously do teach some theology, but what we do is just keep like, what are what are these sort of ecclesiological minimums?Rich Birch — Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And how can we just center on those things… Rich Birch — Yeah. Ted Coniaris — …and launch as many people as possible and see what the Lord does? And he’s been doing some remarkable things. And I think you know our world has a giant need. We need to see millions of people find their way back to God. And a lot of us have strategies where the wild success is if we had thousands of people come and find their way back to God over decades.Ted Coniaris — This this is a strategy that could reach millions. Like I think we legitimately can see a network of these and people down the chain will have no idea kind of where it came from and they don’t need to. But I legitimately think in 10 years time, we could easily reach a million people and have a a church of a million people, but not in the traditional sense.Rich Birch — Right. Ted Coniaris — But through this.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, I love that because, man that’s a great vision to cast. Because you can’t build enough or a big enough yellow box for all of even Chicagoland, right?Rich Birch — Like that’s just not going to, you know, you can’t.Ted Coniaris — Oh, yeah. No.Rich Birch — And and that is a, you know, it’s a just a resource intensive, you know, that’s been my life’s work. I've spent a lot of time on that. it’s not I’m not downing that, friends. Save your cards and letters. I still think that’s a piece of the puzzle. Ted Coniaris — I agree.Rich Birch — But how do we, is there a way for us to, work together to find solutions? How what how does the, I appreciate the, know, we’re not trying to be high control. We’re trying to, you know, we’re not you know we’re trying to really foster something that’s already in happening. We’re going to we’re going to get behind it, do what we can to support it. And we’re not going to try to over control. But I’m going to ask the control question. How do you, what is the kind of level of interaction that you’re, you’re finding is kind of the appropriate, it’s the, you know, not too little, not too much. Where have you found that’s like, hey, this, this is the kind of good sweet spot that that we have found so far with these, you know, 350, you know, microchurches.Ted Coniaris — Are you asking like, what’s the relational rhythm or…Rich Birch — Yeah. What is, yeah. What is the connection? What’s the relational rhythm between, or even connection between community and those 350? Like, are they, how are they, how do they relate to you and your team, your people, your volunteers, and then vice versa? What does that, you know, how does that, what’s that look like? What’s the connection there?Ted Coniaris — Yeah, it’s it’s purely coaching, training and ongoing support.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — And we also make it clear there’s no financial arrangement – them to us or us to them.Rich Birch — Yep.Ted Coniaris — And what we find is that just keeps the relationship very clean.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good.Ted Coniaris — We’re here to coach, support, train, launch, walk alongside.Ted Coniaris — It’s a relational currency. Rich Birch — Yeah. Ted Coniaris — And it’s an expertise currency and a material and resource are the currencies. And so that’s really what we’re doing so when it comes to you know what is the relational controls or how do you keep tabs or you know, whatever might be behind the question for us it’s more about that thriving coaching relationship… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. Ted Coniaris — …and that this is a journey and you know if somebody is unwilling or unable to connect, I mean, they just go do their own thing. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — And we’re not going to try to stop them. Rich Birch — No. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — You know, we want to be dancing with the people who want to dance. We’re not you know spending our time or energy on that. And so it’s really that that coaching system and network. That’s the key in scaling that coaching system and network is how you reach a million people.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s great. That’s a huge vision. I love that. That’s that’s super inspiring. Rich Birch — Well, Ted, this has been a great check-in and lots of good stuff. Just want to encourage you in your leadership at Community. Appreciate what you’re doing there. Thanks for letting us kind of pull back the curtain a little bit and and get a sense in there. Any kind of final words you’d have for leaders that are listening in today? You know, we’ve covered a lot of ground, but anything you know you’d you’d want to kind of remind us just as we close off today’s conversation.Ted Coniaris — Yeah. And you know, the thing that’s just sort of striking me in the moment is just to encourage the pastors who are listening in particular to, to really remember that, that the strategy is your soul. And your own passion and hunger and thirst for the Lord and your integrity and walking that out, that is the key strategy. That is the most important thing. And you can’t do that alone.Ted Coniaris — You know, a lot of times talk about leadership being lonely. I kind of have a different view. I think loneliness is a choice. And I think you can choose not to be lonely. And so I know there are people who feel discouraged and that discouragement leads to isolation and that isolation feels like loneliness and it just becomes this downward spiral. There are different choices you can make to change the direction of that.Ted Coniaris — I know a lot of people are are struggling. The ministry is hard. It’s really hard. But I think that if you can really focus on your passion, your fire, tending your flame with the Lord, it will make the work of ministry lighter. It will make the successes and failures less impactful on you. And to find to find some people who can you can really be vulnerable with, who are sharing the same kind of load that you carry, that would be if I could just say one thing to a group of, you know, 5,000 pastors, that’s probably the thing I would just say right now.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Rich Birch — So good. Well, Ted, I appreciate you coming on today. Where do we want to send people if they want to track with you or with the church? Where do we want to send them online?Ted Coniaris — Communitychristian.org, church website, probably the best place. You can find us on socials and stuff like that. I don’t really do social stuff. It’s not my thing.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah.Ted Coniaris — But you could go to the church. You can find all that. So it’s Community Christian Church in the Chicago area, and you’ll find everything.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Ted. Appreciate being here today, sir.Ted Coniaris — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate you too.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dr. Derwin L. Gray, co-founder and lead pastor of Transformation Church. Since launching in 2010, Transformation Church has become a multi-ethnic, multi-generational movement impacting thousands locally and globally. In this conversation, Derwin tackles one of the most pressing—and often avoided—questions facing church leaders today: what are we actually multiplying? Are we forming disciples of Jesus—or unintentionally shaping people more through culture, politics, and media than through the gospel? Derwin challenges leaders to examine the deeper currents shaping their churches and to recover a bold, Christ-centered vision for discipleship. What are we actually multiplying? // Derwin raises a provocative concern: many churches are focused on growth, expansion, and multiplication—but not always clear on what is being multiplied. Are we producing disciples rooted in the gospel, or consumers attracted to experiences? He warns that without intentional focus, churches can unintentionally replicate shallow faith, cultural Christianity, or even ideological distortion. The goal of multiplication must not simply be more campuses or larger attendance, but deeper, more faithful discipleship. A discipleship crisis beneath the surface. // The issue isn't that churches lack discipleship. It's that many people are being discipled by the wrong influences. Social media, political ideologies, and cultural narratives are shaping beliefs and behaviors, often more powerfully than Scripture. This creates a “wrong discipleship” problem, where people identify as Christians but reflect values that are inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus. The challenge for leaders is to re-center discipleship around Christ, ensuring that people are being formed by the gospel rather than the surrounding culture. The danger of ideological captivity. // Derwin speaks candidly about the ways the church can become entangled in political ideologies—whether on the right or the left. He specifically critiques the rise of Christian nationalism, defining it as the fusion of the church's identity with the identity of a nation-state. This, he argues, distorts the gospel by elevating political allegiance above allegiance to Christ. At the same time, he acknowledges the influence of secular progressivism. Both extremes, in different ways, can pull believers away from the centrality of Jesus. The call is not to disengage from society, but to engage from a distinctly gospel-centered perspective. Recovering a gospel-shaped identity. // At the heart of Derwin's message is a call to rediscover what it means to be shaped by the gospel. The good news of Jesus is not merely about individual salvation—it creates a new family across ethnic, cultural, and social lines. This vision is central to Transformation Church's identity as a multi-ethnic community. Derwin emphasizes that the gospel reconciles not only vertically (between people and God), but horizontally (between people and one another). When churches lose this vision, they lose their witness in a divided world. Courageous and compassionate leadership. // Leading in this cultural moment requires what Derwin calls “courageous compassion.” Pastors must be willing to speak truth clearly while loving people deeply. This means addressing difficult issues without fear of losing people, while also avoiding harsh or divisive rhetoric. Derwin acknowledges that this approach can lead to criticism from multiple sides, but he emphasizes that faithfulness to Christ must take priority over maintaining comfort or approval. Practical steps for leaders. // For pastors who feel their churches have been shaped more by culture than by Christ, Derwin offers simple but powerful starting points: pray, repent, and refocus on the gospel. He encourages leaders to equip themselves through study and to guide their teams in rediscovering a biblical framework for discipleship. Most importantly, leaders must model what they teach, demonstrating lives rooted in Christ rather than captured by cultural narratives. A renewed vision for the church. // Ultimately, Derwin calls the church back to its prophetic voice. The church is not meant to mirror the divisions of the world but to offer a compelling alternative: a community shaped by love, unity, and truth. When the church remains rooted in Jesus, it becomes a powerful witness to a watching world. To learn more about Transformation Church and Dr. Derwin L. Gray, his teaching, and resources, visit transformationchurch.tc and derwinlgray.com. Plus, pre-order his book, It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, so glad that you decided to tune in to today’s episode of the unSeminary podcast. Really looking forward to this. I had a fragment of a conversation with a dear friend at the Exponential Conference and I want to have more of that today with you listening in. And this is a conversation that I know is impacting people. I think 100% of our church is in the country today. It’s something that we all are seeing. It’s impacting us. We’ve got to be thinking about this. Rich Birch — Honored to have Dr. Derwin Gray with us, incredible leader from Transformation Church. He and his wife, Vicki, co-founded the church in 2010. It’s a multi-ethnic, multi-generational, mission-shaped community community with two locations in South Carolina, as well as Church Online. He’s an award-winning author of multiple books. He’s been on the podcast in the past and is one of the people who, he’s called me out on the podcast before, and I have taken those lessons with me. And so I’m I'm hoping that happens with you today. Derwin, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Hey, man, thank you. So good to be with you.Rich Birch — No, it’s it’s honest. You know, been multiple times you’ve been on the show and I I’ve walked away being like, man, okay, Derwin just, he’s just pushed me and and got me to think different, which I really appreciate that. So for folks that don’t know about Transformation, kind of tell us a little bit about the church and give us the context you’re in, that sort of thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, man. So ah my wife and I co-planted Transformation Church in 2010 in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. And so neither my wife and nor I grew up in church, and both of us came to faith in our mid to late 20s, and primarily through people at work. There was a woman at my wife’s job who shared Christ with her. I had a teammate named Steve Grant, with the Indianapolis Colts, where I played in the NFL. We called him the naked preacher because after practice, he’d dry off, take a shower, wrap a towel around his waist, and he’d share the gospel. And over five years, I came to faith. My wife came to faith before me. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And all we knew was this. If Jesus is this incredible, this forgiving, this gracious, this is the greatest news there is in the world. And so we didn’t know what words like evangelism and discipleship meant. All we knew was this. I want to know him. I want to make him known. I want to know his word.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so that was in 1997, 1998. We moved to Charlotte, North Carolina to play for the Carolina Panthers, and I got injured. And so all I could do was read my Bible, rehab my knee. And the following year, both my wife and I said, you know what? I think my NFL time is done.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — What are we going to do? We don’t know. So I got an invitation to speak at a youth event to share my testimony. And I said, well, what is that? They were like, a testimony is where you share your story of how you met Christ and what what took place. So I did that. People started calling me.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And in 1999, other Christians says, you guys need a nonprofit organization. You know, we’re like, what does that mean? So we started a ministry called One Heart at a Time. I would travel and speak. She would organize everything. We served at our church. Well, the longer we did that, we saw incredible fruit, but we also saw that wherever I would preach, it was ethnically segregated. It was it was really weird, right?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I’m like, wait a second. America is integrated, but the church is basically segregated. And so I began to ask questions and I got lousy answers. But as we read the Bible, it was like the early church was Jews and Gentiles. That’s what it was. It was a multi-ethnic church. Jesus not only forgave sins, but he created a family with different colored skins. Not only is that the future of the church in Revelation 7:9, but that’s the present reality of the church that intrinsic to the gospel is ethnic reconciliation. What good would it be Jesus forgives you but don’t love your brother and sister? So the cross is vertical and horizontal. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we were frustrated. And then we just sense God say, well, you can criticize or you can create. And so ultimately that led to planting Transformation Church in the south area of Charlotte, North Carolina, where actually physically in what’s called Indian Land, South Carolina, and our other campus is in Lake Wiley, South Carolina, but it’s really the greater Charlotte area.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And our church is more ethnically diverse than our community. And I want to be very, very clear. One of the reasons why we are ethnically diverse is because of the good news of Jesus. Like I explained, Jesus not only forgives sins, but he creates a family with different colored skins. And so for us, ethnic unity in Christ not only enhances our discipleship, but it enhances our witness to a looking and watching world which is filled with so much division. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And over the last 16 years, God has done miraculous things. We’ve seen 9,000 people come to faith, thousands be baptized. God has given us massive influence. We also have what’s called the Multi-Ethnic Church Roundtable, where we’ve equipped 800 leaders from around the world to do gospel-centered multi-ethnic ministry. We’re also in the process, Leon’s Crump and I, of launching what’s called the Promise Collective, which is going to be an intentionally multi-ethnic gospel-centered church planting network.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So a lot of wonderful things are taking place. And we think it’s pretty cool that God planted us in the state of South Carolina where the first shots of the Civil War were fired. And God has used this church here to influence not only the church in America, but even around the world. Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we’re grateful.Rich Birch — Well, I, yeah, there’s I respect you on so many levels. And, and, you know, they these issues around being a multi-ethnic church are, you know, at the core of that. And just to respect you on for lots of what you’ve done. and And we ended up at this in this conversation, just to kind of bring everybody up to speed, we ended up in this conversation at Exponential that I leaned forward as just declaring my, ah you know, a little bit about me for folks that are listening in. So I am Canadian, don’t hold it against me.Rich Birch — But I’ve served mostly American churches in the churches I work with. And most of the 95% of the listeners of this podcast are in the States. I was in the States for a bunch of years. And that may become a little more obvious as we’re talking here why that’s why I’m talking about that context. But one of the things in this conversation that I heard you, the question you asked, which made me lean forward and then where it kind of unfolded from there is you asked the question, what are we actually multiplying? Exponential is obviously the global conference for multiplication, but you were pushing us to think about what are we actually multiplying? What is the the core of that? Can you unpack that for us?What were you thinking of when we started talking about that that day?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, sure, sure. Just to provide either even a little bit more context is it was a gathering of of very large churches. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And the question is what’s going well, what’s not going well? And so typically in those types of rooms, I like to listen. And so as I was listening, I was hearing no disrespect, but a lot of the same.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so I kind of waited for everybody to to finish what they were saying. And I said, here’s something that Transformation Church does well, is we are equipping our people to stand against secular progressivism and Christian nationalism. And I said, what are we exactly multiplying? Because the state of the church the United States America is not good. It’s not healthy. It is divided. In many cases, it is it’s mean. Shallow theology, not loving our neighbors as God commands us to be loved. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So so my question was, are we just putting up more boxes for consumers to come in and consume because we have good music, good human-centered preaching. You know, we’re not going to mess with your idols. We’re not going to topple your idols at all. And yeah, you can invite your friends when we get more campuses. Because if that’s just what we’re doing, don’t sign me up for that. I don’t I don’t I don’t want any parts of that. That’s how we got to where we are now. And so you as a Canadian, here in America, the witness of the church is not very good. Like when I talk to people who are unbelievers, I have to untangle…Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …politics from the gospel because unfortunately there’s been an unholy wedding, particularly on the far right with aspects of Christianity, which has distorted and deformed. I think the secular progressivism is pretty easy to see, but I think the Christian nationalism is a lot harder. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Now, let me define what I mean by that. So first of all, Loving your country is a good thing. That’s called loving your neighbors. You love yourself. So my fourth grandfather, Moses Davis, fought for the Union, the colored cavalry of Virginia… Rich Birch — Wow. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …against the treasonous Confederate whatever it was. So in my blood is patriotism for my nation. America’s my home. But to love my neighbors, I love myself means not only do love America, but I love the entire world. And then as a Christian, we have a global body that we love. There are more followers of Jesus of color outside of America than the United States of America.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Now, what do I mean by Christian nationalism? This is what I mean. Christian nationalism is the attempt to fuse the identity and mission of the church with the identity and power of a nation state, treating the nation as a primary vehicle of God’s purposes rather than seeing God’s kingdom as a global Jesus-centered reality that transcends all nations.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — By that definition, Christian nationalism is a heresy. Because it basically says, if you don’t think like us, you can’t be a follower of Jesus. And so you’re adding to the works of Christ. And so Christian nationalism has infiltrated much of what I would say the majority culture, Caucasian church in America. Not all, but a lot. Where Christians, what what it means to follow Jesus has turned into a far right, almost authoritarianism versus, no, no, you have the right to vote in the United States of America. But as Christians, we don’t have a right to idolize nor demonize those who vote differently than us.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I’m not sure Americans know this, but most people in the world are not Republican or Democrat. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So if you say your faith is based on what you vote for, you’re adding to the work of Christ.Rich Birch — So, so Derwin, I appreciate you. So I’ve not heard a lot of people talk about this. This seems to be, I don’t know, it seems like something happened post COVID and the church in general, there was this like shakeup in the church in general where, you know, lots of people ended up in different places and it was like, we’ve become more divided than ever before. And I do think that there’s a significant dividing line at or close to what you’re talking about here, that it’s like, there’s a, there’s a new voice around Christian nationalism that seems to be gaining influence. Is that, is that, is that ah a false perception or is that the way you see it as well?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — No, you are 100% right. And it is a well-orchestrated, well-funded plan. With social media and the rise of social media influencers, paid propagandists can go on and infuse their propaganda into people immediately.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And here’s and here’s the thing. Populism does not require much intellect. All it requires is somebody to be angry at who’s taking from you. So the more divided we are as people, the more the oligarchs have power and the money that they make.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — They own the social media. They own the algorithms. I mean, for goodness sakes, Elon Musk promised people a million dollars to vote in Pennsylvania for the election. How is that even legal? Right. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So people are being inundated. Like we have family members that don’t even talk to each other anymore because they have red hat or a blue shirt, right? And so it has been in increasingly effective. But here’s the thing, Rich, that’s so wild to me. The admin the the Trump administration greenlit the FDA approval of an abortion pill. And I don’t hear any evangelical saying anything about it.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And even when you look at the Supreme Court now saying states can choose whether you do abortion or not, that’s pro-choice. You know, what used to be the Republican Party, small government, family values, those things are way gone. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so not only has Christian nationalism changed like, or not only has this current administration changed what the Republican Party was, but in many cases, it’s changed even so much of the church. And it is wild to listen to people in 2016 who said one thing, who say a totally different thing now.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — It’s hard.Rich Birch — Well, yeah. And I so I think the thing you’ve, you’re putting a finger on and it’s, I appreciate you being willing to talk about and unpack it is there’s definitely like a broader cultural conversation that’s happening around these issues. That is for sure. We’re seeing that. And that’s having an impact on our ability to disciple the people in our churches or our people are being discipled by social media, by the algorithm, by YouTube And that can create or is creating a discipleship crisis in many of our churches. How do you try to find the line between those two to say, hey, we’re going to talk about the discipleship stuff… Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah. Rich Birch — …without getting dragged in on the you know the exterior? How do we how do we draw those lines in a way that makes sense?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so what I would say is we don’t have a discipleship problem. We have a wrong discipleship problem. Rich Birch — Okay, that’s good. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Because somebody is making students out of somebody.Rich Birch — Right, sure.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so are we becoming students of Jesus? that’s That’s the issue. And so what I say is this, how a person votes, that’s their conscience. But how do you treat the people who don’t vote like you? Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So for example, research shows black Americans are more socially conservative, more biblically committed than white Americans. But 90%, I’m sorry, but black American Christians, but black American Christians, 90% vote for Democrats. So how can you be more socially conservative, more biblically committed, but you vote for Democrat?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Well, because they don’t take everything that’s in the Democratic Party, just like most people who voted for Trump don’t take everything with him. And so we have to give each other the latitude and the grace. And there’s also pro-life Democrats. And not everybody who voted for Trump is evil. Not everybody who votes Democrat is evil. But the powers that be want us divided. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And when I and when I talk to my friends from Canada, when I talk to my friends that are pastors from around the world, Norway, different parts of Europe, Australia, England, and they’re going, what has happened to you guys?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I can tell you what’s what’s taken place is our faith is being distorted and driving it is fear and hatred.Rich Birch — Yeah. So I would echo that. The joke I’ve made, both with American leaders and leaders from other parts of the world, is there is a segment of the body of Christ that seems very angry about the love of God. Like they’re and they’re very fearful. Like it’s all it’s all anger and fear driven. And I don’t know whether, and it probably is related to the algorithms, but like we’re hearing from these people so much more than, than we used to. It used to be an echo chamber of people that lived in so much fear, but now it’s just out there. It seems to be in, in our, you know, in our feeds all the time.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, what used to be on the fringes is now on the main street, right? And so we need to re-gospel ourselves. We need a greater commitment to Christ. So, for example, life in the womb is precious and sacred. That’s not conservative. That’s gospel. That’s biblical.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Caring for the dignity of undocumented people in America is not liberal. That’s gospel. Wanting border control is not conservative. That is understanding that a nation has to have borders to flourish. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Believing that marriage is between a man and a woman, we believe that’s biblical. But loving and respecting LGBTQ people is not liberal. Loving my neighbors as I love myself. And if I have any hope of anybody ah coming to Jesus, they’re not going come to Jesus because I’m yelling at them and I’m angry. I’m going to love them and pursue them just like we’ve done here at our church.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so I feel like what we’ve done in in in the church is we’ve taken a 250 year old country called America. And then specifically the last 10 years, we’ve made that the hermeneutic to understand the gospel.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — We’ve made that the lenses that we look through to determine the gospel. Whereas what I’m saying, let’s go back to the text. Let’s go back to the early church, the book of Acts, Paul’s letters, the gospels. That’s where our faith comes from. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Like I have lobbied on Capitol Hill with Republicans and Democrats about immigration reform. We need border security, but we can also secure the dignity of human beings, especially human beings who are undocumented and don’t have a record against them. Right. So there has to be a process to have strong borders, but also to hold to people’s hearts.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — But but at the end of the day, right at the end of the day, we are people of the Lamb, not the elephant or the donkey.Rich Birch — So good. So good. So what’s the hardest part about leading in a church that really refuses to be captured by either side? I feel like there’s pressure on from both political parties to they, you know, I think somewhere along the line, they realize, wow, there’s a lot of power in these churches. And how do we you know, how do we kind of infiltrate or how do we gain that? What’s it like to lead a church that’s trying to, that’s refusing to be captured by both sides is wants to keep Jesus ahead. What does that cost? How is that, you know, what are some of the pressures of that? What have been some telltale signs for you as you’ve led at Transformation in this front?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, um i would i would I would say, Rich, sometimes I’ll get a critical email and a eventually those people will leave. But but but but for the most part, I mean, we’re 16 years in, it’s our ethos, it’s our character. People know who we are. They know why we are. And so like we’re flourishing, we’re growing. It’s beautiful. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — There’s a matter of fact, I got some messages earlier today just saying, hey, thank you. Like I was just about done with Christianity and I found Transformation Church, right? I mean, this Jesus, you’re this is what I want to be a part of. So I think respecting and loving all people, even though you disagree with them. And the thing that I said, I did a series in 2024 in the fall before the election on on the Beatitudes.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And my whole thing was how you vote is up to your conscious. How you treat people is not up for debate. We’re called to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. And so in our church, I’m sure we got people all over the political spectrum. I’m a registered independent myself.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — But something that I think really landed well with our people is this: 99.9% of all followers of Jesus for 2,000 years and even now have never voted Republican and have never voted Democrat.Rich Birch — Right. Right. That’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Our faith is in Christ and Christ alone. And America is what’s called a constitutional republic democracy. It is not a theocracy. It is governed by a constitution, not the Bible. And so, yes, I want believers in place not to do some kind of spiritual Sharia law, but to make sure that the Constitution is upheld, which gives life and liberty and justice, not for some, but for all.Rich Birch — What would you say, you know, I’ve often thought around this, these, this issue and we’re kind of related issues. I have to think back to Billy Graham and I think like, man, we don’t know what, don’t what he’d be doing today. Like what would, I’ve heard this story that and in the fifties he gathered a group of what at the time, they you know they self afflicted they gave themselves the title of fundamentalist and they said, hey, we gotta stop calling ourselves fundamentalist because that word is so loaded in our culture. It feels like evangelical is like that today. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah.Rich Birch — It is when people ask me, are you evangelical? I’ll say, well, it depends on what you mean by evangelical because it has so much freight behind it. Do you think there is a place for kind of a broader discussion? How, how can we continue to try to create a middle here that where people can actually try to shed these, like you say, the Lamb and the donkey and, or the, the, the elephant and the donkey and, and focus on the Lamb. How do we do that going forward? How do we create those kinds of places where those kinds of conversations can continue to happen?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, you know, so let me answer the first question first is when I preached in Norway a few years ago, the people said, thank you for being so evangelical. And it had nothing to do with politics. So the term evangelical comes from the Greek word, which means good news. So it’s never meant to be a political voting block. Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — It’s never meant to be an ethnicity. It is good news people. So in Europe, I say I’m evangelical because it goes well. Here in America, I say I am shaped by the gospel. I’m a Christian that’s shaped by the gospel. Rich Birch — That’s good language.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — I love God and I love my neighbors. I love myself. So I think we have a fundamental gospel problem in the American church. If you simply think the good news is Jesus died for your sins, now you don’t go to hell, then your discipleship is going to be very reductionistic. It’s going to be very individualistic.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, his ascension and then sending the Spirit, is not only do we spend eternity with him, but as brothers and sisters, we’re equally righteous, equally redeemed, equally the temple of the Holy Spirit, equally God’s children. So if all those things are true equally, then by definition, we are the body of Christ. So if you hurt, then I hurt, but we don’t think that way.Rich Birch — Right.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So we have to change the way we think. Paul says in Philippians 2.3, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but consider others better than yourselves. Verse five is “for you have the mind of Christ”. And so what we’ve been able to do here at Transformation Church is really move people deeper to the gospel. If you listen to one of my messages, you will hear gospel. That’s why we are the way we are. And the gospel challenges idols.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — When President Obama was president, I would get emails, “Oh you must be a Republican.” And then when President Trump, “You must be a Democrat.” I’m like, no, I’m an independent, but I’m called to be prophetic and to equip us to not be captivated by the zeitgeist…Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — …the spirit of the age. When the church loses her prophetic witness, we’ve lost everything.Rich Birch — That’s good.Rich Birch — Yeah, that that that names something that you put a finger on there, on something that I’d love you to unpack a little bit more. How do you do that as a pastor? Because I’ve seen you do that consistently. It’s like, how how do we be that prophetic voice, speak with clarity to ultimately point people back to Jesus, not be captured by just the winds of the day?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Be courageously compassionate. Rich Birch — That’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Be courageously compassionate. I believe, you know, so I have, I have, I have talked to pastors who lead churches that may be, you know, center a little bit left. And well, if I talk about this issue too much, people may leave. Then I’ve heard other people like, well, if I talk about about this, the MAGA people may leave. And it’s like, well, Are you concerned about people leaving or are you concerned about honoring the call that God has given you? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And one day you have to face him and you’re going to say, well, you know, what Lord, I was afraid people were going to leave. Like you can be courageous and compassionate simultaneously.Rich Birch — That’s good.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — So I, there are people on both sides of the aisle that passionately and deeply love Jesus, but have different perspectives politically. Now, Christian nationalism, that is a whole different species that that has to be lovingly challenged. And my job at Transformation Church is to equip our people and to be a shepherd because there are false prophets and wolves that are coming.Rich Birch — There’s a ton here. I really appreciate that. For a pastor that’s listening in today that’s thinking, man, I look at my people and I think maybe I they have been discipled more by cable news than by scripture. And I maybe haven’t done everything I could could have done. I haven’t been clear with compassion. I’ve just been, I’ve just kind of let this happen. What would you say some of the first steps that you would say for a for a leader like that?Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, pray, repent, pray, repent. Take your elders and your staff through a book by Preston Sprinkle called “Exiles in Babylon” or the book by Michael Byrd and N.T. Wright. Both of them deal with you know how to be a faithful witness in this time of political division. But before you go out and share, make sure that you are equipped. But also choose not to be partisan.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Rich, the Epstein Files is one of the biggest cover-ups in American history. We’re talking about precious kids who were taking advantage of. And I mean, where is the prophetic voice that this is wrong, regardless of who’s in it? This is wrong and it demands justice. We as God’s people are going to be held accountable to equip this. Like, this is serious. Like, I’ve heard people say, well, there’s bigger problems in the world. No, there’s not.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Derwin, this has been fantastic. I want to point people towards, you’ve got a new book that’s coming out. That’s like like a huge left-hand turn here, but just looking at it, I think this could is is connected, obviously, to what we’re talking about in today’s conversation. It comes out this fall.Rich Birch — It’s called it’s a time or “It’s Time to Heal: Four God-Given Steps to Restore What Life Has Shattered”. Tell us a little bit about this book, and I and I want to get people to you know actually pre-order this thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, man. So basically the last seven years, what I have seen from followers of Christ is we’re the walking wounded. We are, we are just stuck. We have allowed our traumas, our histories, our pains, our failures, the way we’ve been hurt to keep us in a position of hurt. And we’ve just circled and circled. And then, a lot of preaching deals with behavior modification and doesn’t get to the root. And so I’ve just been like, you know what, God, I want to help God’s people. Right. And it starts with helping myself.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And what I do is I really take a theology of who we are in Christ. I take neuroscience and psychology and marry them in spiritual formationRich Birch — Love it.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And it’s by far the best book that I’ve ever written. I can’t wait for people to see the endorsements from people like Dr. Daniel Amen, Craig Groeschel, Christine Caine. It’s by far the most important book I’ve ever written and the best book I’ve ever written. And I believe that it can really help people heal. Like really understanding that trauma gets in our nervous system. It’s not just think harder, do more. Like we have to learn how this is embodied inside of us. Dr. Derwin L. Gray — And so, man, it transformed me writing it. And what I do is I walk the people through an acronym. The the book is in four parts and the acronym HEAL. H stands for honest about what what happened. E, expect hard. A, accept what happened and L, live from love, not for love. And I share some incredible stories in there. And so, yeah, I’m really, really looking forward to people healing.Rich Birch — Well, yeah, I would encourage people to, we’ll link to that in the show notes and all that. But I think it’s connected in that I think I think the extremes on both ends politically, they’ve picked up on kind of the pain in the zeitgeist. And they’ve they’ve said, hey, the solution is is is the other side is the enemy and we got to do something to tear them down. And we know that just won’t work. At the end of the day, it’s Jesus transforming our lives. It’s him restoring us to who we are. And I think this could be a great tool for folks as they’re wrestling with that. So I’m excited for that book to come out. Looking forward to that. And we’ll we’ll link to all that. Rich Birch — Any kind of final words as we wrap up today? I really appreciate you unpacking this a bit more and taking some time to, you know, kind of let us chat a little bit about it.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, two thoughts. Jesus said in Matthew 5:44 and 45, bless those who persecute you. And I said, love your enemies. And then Jesus said, you will know my disciples because they love one another. Refuse to let anger and hatred and division guide you.Rich Birch — That’s good. So good. You said two things. You had two you that and one other thing.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Well, yeah, it was it was Matthew 5 and you’re on…yeah.Rich Birch — Oh, I see. Right, right, right. Yep. Okay. That’s good. Nice. Where if people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Just as we wrap up today’s call conversation.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Yeah, just go to derwinlgray.com, derwinlgray.comRich Birch — Nice. That’s great. Dr. Derwin, I just want to honor you. You’re an incredible leader. Thank you for being here today and helping us think through these issues. Thank you.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Thank you, my friend.Rich Birch — Take care.Dr. Derwin L. Gray — Appreciate you.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Scott Worthington, Lead Pastor of Hope Church in Las Vegas, Nevada. After serving on staff for over 15 years, Scott stepped into the lead pastor role in 2022 following founding pastor Vance Pitman. In this conversation, Scott shares candid insights from that transition—what he learned, what surprised him, and how he's helping the church move forward in a new season. Are you navigating a leadership transition—or preparing for one? Wondering how to honor the past while leading into the future? Scott offers practical wisdom on succession, culture, and leading through change with humility and clarity. When transition happens faster than expected. // Scott's transition didn't follow a long, multi-year succession plan. While there had been informal conversations about the future, the actual handoff happened in a matter of months when Vance stepped into a new national role. Moving from a worship/creative role into the senior pastor seat required rapid adjustment. One of Scott's biggest realizations was that strong personal relationships don't eliminate the complexity of leadership transition. Even with deep trust, there were moments of tension, especially when his leadership instincts differed from the mentor who had shaped him. Learning to lead without feeling like he was disappointing his former pastor became a key internal challenge. Hold tightly to mission, loosely to strategy. // As Scott stepped into leadership, he quickly identified what could not change: the church's mission, vision, and core discipleship philosophy. For years, Hope Church had emphasized abiding in Christ as the foundation of ministry, rooted in John 15. That DNA remained non-negotiable. However, strategy was a different story. Scott embraced the idea that while the mission is fixed, methods must evolve. Ask the hard question: are we making disciples? // Early in his leadership, Scott gathered his team and asked a deceptively simple but weighty question: Are we actually making disciples? While there were encouraging stories of life change, the broader picture required honest evaluation. The disruptions of COVID had reshaped engagement, and the church needed to recalibrate. This question became the catalyst for new strategic direction, pushing the team to rethink how they measured spiritual growth and engagement. Introducing “spiritual cartography.” // One of the key strategic shifts Scott led was helping people identify where they are on their spiritual journey – a concept he calls “spiritual cartography.” The church began consistently communicating that everyone is somewhere spiritually and every Jesus follower has a next step. This language became embedded in sermons, staff culture, signage, and communication. To support this, they developed a simple “Discovery Tool” that helps people assess their current spiritual stage and identify next steps. Listening before leading. // In the early days of transition, Scott prioritized listening over directing. Rather than immediately implementing changes, he met with every department on staff, asking questions about culture, strengths, and areas for growth. Importantly, he resisted the urge to defend or explain, focusing instead on gathering insight. These conversations provided valuable data that shaped future decisions. His posture of humility helped build trust across the team during a potentially fragile season. Growing into the role. // One of Scott's personal challenges was preaching. Having only preached 37 times before becoming lead pastor, he knew this was an area for growth. He joined a preaching cohort, studied extensively, and committed to getting reps. Over time, he began finding his own voice and learning not to imitate his predecessor but to lead authentically while still reflecting the influence of years under his leadership. A final reminder for leaders. // Scott closes with a powerful encouragement: ministry flows from intimacy with Jesus, not activity for Him. Leaders can easily drift into busyness and neglect their relationship with Christ. But as he reminds us, apart from Jesus, we can do nothing. True fruitfulness comes from abiding in Him. To learn more about Hope Church, visit hopechurchlv.com or follow @hopechurchlv on social media. Plus, don’t miss Hope’s spiritual cartography Discovery Tool. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. This is one of those issues that literally thousands of churches across the country are at some phase of working on. And so I know that this is going to be a practical conversation for you. Excited to have Scott Worthington with us today. He is the lead pastor at Hope Church, a church in Las Vegas. It’s a multisite church with three locations, if I can count correctly, in Nevada. They were founded in 2001 by Vance Pitman, and then he passed the baton to Scott, who stepped into the senior pastor role in 2022. Super excited to have Scott on the show today. Welcome. So glad you’re here.Scott Worthington — Thank you so much, Rich. It is a privilege. Grateful to be here with you today.Rich Birch — I’m honored that you’re you’re here and taking some time out. I know you’ve lots going on. Tell us a little bit of the Hope Church story, kind of cast a bit of the picture. If we were to arrive this weekend, what would we experience, that sort of thing?Scott Worthington — Yeah, Hope Church is an incredible church here in Las Vegas, as you said, three locations, three congregations what we call them. And yeah, I began to attend Hope Church right out of college in 2006, 2007, and been here for, I guess, 20 years now.Scott Worthington — And Vance Pitman, you mentioned his name. He was my pastor. He is the founding pastor here. He planted this church in 2001. Three dudes from the South moved to Las Vegas, Nevada, and 18 people started in his living room. It’s an incredible story of just church planting, and I don’t know how much we’ll get into that, but obviously that’s not my story to tell. That’s his, but it really is a miracle of God of what he’s done here. Scott Worthington — And then, yeah, Vance was my pastor for 16 years. I started as an intern in the student ministry and kind of just as God opened doors, walked through those doors, and eventually, I was the most surprised guy in the room when when Pastor Vance tapped tapped me on the shoulder in 2022, and he was being called to go lead a church planting organization here in North America. And yeah, he said, I think you’re supposed to be the senior pastor.Scott Worthington — And so we walked through our whole process, and it has been such a privilege now going on four years of leading the church that I’ve loved for 20. So it’s been a it’s been a wild, amazing, ah grace-filled ride, man.Rich Birch — Love it. I am looking forward diving into that today and helping people understand kind of what you learned through that process a little bit. I wonder if we could start, what’s your like, you know, you’re at a conference or you’re talking to somebody and they’re like, explain to me how the transition went. What’s the kind of the two minute version? I know it’s like, there’s a lot there, but how, how, how did that from that initial conversation through till, okay, you know, you’re now the lead pastor. What’s that look like?Scott Worthington — Yeah, the transition in the beginning, I would say it was it was really great. And and and the things that I’ll share publicly here is they’ve all been dealt with and things have been reconciled.Rich Birch — Yes.Scott Worthington — I’m so i’m so grateful. Pastor Vance is actually coming—our 25th anniversary is this September, and he is coming to preach our 25th anniversary. I’m so, so looking forward to that. Scott Worthington — But you know In the beginning, there’s there’s multiple ways to do transitions. Of course, there’s so many. Some people, especially when you got a kind of larger than life guy like Pastor Vance, they they’ll bring in another kind of larger than life big name somewhere. And we just felt like, and I say we, that was our whole lead pastoral staff, our stewardship team, which is our board. We just felt like um that that wasn’t the that wasn’t the move for us, that God wasn’t leading. Scott Worthington — I wasn’t so much a part of those conversations because my name was the leading name. And Vance just said, I think God has raised up the next leader right from within. And so that’s already a little different in that sometimes it’s like a five-year run or a six-year run and it’s like there’s a whole plan. This was this was a matter of months. I’m going from being one of the worship pastors here to being the lead pastor. And it was it it was very healthy in the beginning. And even even throughout the hard, it was good. And God’s grace has been all over it. But man, we just didn’t know what we didn’t know. Scott Worthington — One of the things we took for granted, I think, is that because of the relationship between Vance and I—I mean, he was my pastor for 16 years. We had a podcast together. I mean, we traveled together. I was the student pastor to his kids. I mean, it’s one of my really, really good friends, my mentor, my my pastor. Scott Worthington — And some of the advice that many people have written books on and done podcasts on and what what you should do in transition, frankly, we just thought, I don’t know if we need to do that. I mean, it’s Scott and Vance. It’s it’s it’s all good. And and there was just things that we didn’t know. I didn’t know how to handle. I don’t know if he knew how to handle. And again, I want to be careful. I don’t want to put words in his mouth. We’ve talked a lot about all this. I can speak for me. Scott Worthington — When Vance had an opinion that may have differed from mine in the way I should be doing something, I didn’t realize how hard that was gonna be for me to feel like I was disappointing my pastor. You know what mean? Rich Birch — Interesting. Scott Worthington — And really, really good, deep conversations have been had since then. But yeah, of course, you know we all know theologically, Joshua isn’t called to be Moses. You know, Joshua had to do things differently. And and it was harder for me to do that than I realized, Rich.Scott Worthington — It was it was harder for me to go right when I’ve been trained so long to go left by Pastor Vance, but I really felt God leading us right in some ways. And that was actually more difficult for me than I than I anticipated.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’d love to double click click on that part, because I think that that the core of all of these transitions, right, is this tension of like, hey, there’s some stuff that’s essential to preserve. And then by definition, like I think that’s a really apropos, you know, Moses to Joshua, I think is a really good, vivid example. There’s also things that need to evolve and change. How what helped you distinguish between those two as you think about, hmm, here’s some stuff we should really keep. And then here’s some stuff we should maybe start thinking differently about.Scott Worthington — Yeah, I would say to start with the what I needed to keep, I mean, I’ve been discipled here. I didn’t give my life to Christ at this church, but I joke and say, I wish God would have saved me at this church. So would have literally been, you know, the entire story. But I got saved here in another church in town and and quickly kind of made the transition through some circumstances here to Hope.Scott Worthington — But everything I know about ministry, I learned from, from, this church and from pastor Vance. And, uh, I mean, my wife and I were married to this church. We began having kids in this church. I’ve I’ve, joked that my entire adult life has been lived in the context of discipleship at Hope Church. And so all of the things, I mean, our mission, our vision, our values, everything has shaped me as a husband, a father, a Jesus follower, a pastor.Scott Worthington — You know, I’m so grateful that God’s given Vance, such a platform around the world. I mean, he he literally travels all over the country and all over the world preaching about this idea that of John 15, right? Apart from him, we can do nothing. That our our primary call is to intimacy with Jesus, not ministry for Jesus. And I mean, these are things that I just rattle off because they’re so in me. And and that was what was so embedded in the culture of Hope Church from the very beginning when it was 18 people in his living room, now to thousands. And I knew there’s no way I could do anything other than that.Scott Worthington — And so, you know, our mission, our vision is hasn’t changed. We we exist to connect people to live life with Jesus follower. And we believe a Jesus follower abides in Christ, connects in community and shares in the mission. I mean, these are things that I’ve heard for years 20 years and I’m still preaching to this day because they’ve changed me.Rich Birch — Right. Yep.Scott Worthington — Those were things that were, I mean, they, those were not changing. But I think it’s that old Andy Stanley line, you know, you, you marry the, the, the mission and you date the strategy. And so there were some ways that we were—and I might’ve butchered that. I have no idea. Sorry, Andy, if you listen…Rich Birch — It’s fine. Exactly.Scott Worthington — Yeah, I knew there were some things strategically that maybe we could start to play with that would help people deeper abide in Christ, connect in community and share in the mission.Scott Worthington — So those were the things that we started as a team. And that’s what I’m I’m also grateful for, the tracks that Vance laid down of of doing things together with with a plurality of elders. And so this isn’t me on a mountain, you know, coming up with the ideas and and and saying, this is this is what the Lord says. Scott Worthington — There’s an incredible team of pastors around me, especially as I’m I’m younger in the pastorate here, helping me make those decisions and helping me understand what what we should be. And of course, I’m I’m driving with vision, but man, they are such gifts to me. And and that was all stuff that I I picked up the baton from Vance. He led that way. And so I’ve tried to to continue that and and really tap into the guys around me.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. I’d love to double click on that around some strategic decisions that you’ve sensed with your team. Hey, there we need to maybe to go in a new direction. What led you to that? What was kind of the data? What were you seeing? What what was the the thing that kind of precursed even making those decisions? And then if there’s an example of one or two, that’d be interesting as well.Scott Worthington — Yeah. So of of course, every person listening this podcast, they know, man, COVID was just such a shakeup for everybody. Rich Birch — Yep.Scott Worthington — And we were interesting because not only do we have COVID here and, you know, I know depending on where you’re listening, you had different restrictions and all that, but we, we, we had a lot ah here in in Vegas. We we had really taken a lot of our cues at that time from California. And so if you know what California did, we were, we were kind of right behind them. Scott Worthington — And yeah, we, so we, going into kind of reopening, if you will, we also just built a new building. And so we had a new building, reopening, the shakeup that COVID brought all of us. Then it sounds like a long time, but we know one or two years of ministry goes by in a flash. And so within one or two years of kind of reopening and reestablishing who our church really is, not just, you know, watching on YouTube, but also in the room and really the the core of the community, that’s when the transition happened. So it all happened so fast. So we really had to take a step back and go, okay, who, who is our church? Are we making disciples, right?Scott Worthington — That’s just our our mission to connect people to live a life of Jesus follower is just a contextualized version of the Great Commission, right? To make disciples. So are we doing that? And that’s a that’s a hard question to ask because you you got to be prepared to really deal with the results, right? Scott Worthington — Like when you ask your leadership team, and that’s what I did that very first lead team retreat we took two months after I began leading Hope. um I said, guys, I’m gonna ask a question that sounds silly, but it needs to be asked. Are we making disciples? Are we making, ah helping people abide in Christ, connect to community and share in the mission? And of course we have stories of like, yes, this person that just recently got saved, you know, out of the harvest, into the harvest kind of thing.Scott Worthington — But when you really started to drill down kind of on this new, I hate to say new church, but I mean, out of COVID, we all know… Rich Birch — Sure. Scott Worthington — …man, it was, they were like, you’re making new people, it’s growing. And then you’re going, wait, where’d all those other people go? That they got used to Sundays by the pool… Rich Birch — Right. Scott Worthington — …you know, like, and we’re we’re just asking good, hard questions that I think leads you to start making strategic choices that, that pushed the mission forward. And so, yeah, we’re we’re asking those hard questions and then we’re saying, okay, does the the does the strategy we used to have, does that accomplish the mission now in this season and this time?Scott Worthington — And of course, we we saw some fruit there, incredible fruit, but new leader, new season, in some ways, a lot of a new church. Let’s move forward with maybe some different strategic initiatives. Scott Worthington — And that’s when we started to to kind of ask the question, which will lead to maybe some practical stuff, where are people spiritually? That’s kind of where we’ve been leading over the last few years. Asking a question, you know, the the super nerdy form of this is is spiritual cartography. It’s really nerdy. But like really helping people understand everyone is somewhere spiritually. We want to so help you see where you are spiritually and then help you take a next step. And really just like putting it on the bottom shelf. How do we help people grow in their faith and take next steps? And that’s basically kind of the strategy we’ve been operating off of for the last couple of years. And it’s it’s been incredible.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. I love that. I wonder if you could, you know, give us a little bit of detail around that spiritual cartography. Love that. That’s a great turn of phrase. But how how are we how are you helping people see more clearly where they are and then provide those steps that maybe looks a little different? It’s been a shift than, say, 10 years ago kind of thing as a church.Scott Worthington — Yeah, I’d say, you know, everyone, again, leaders listening know this, but it starts with language. So we just started very strategically saying a couple of things. Number one, saying, hey, we believe everyone is on the spiritual journey somewhere or everyone is a certain place on the spiritual journey.Scott Worthington — And we believe every Jesus follower has a next step. I like that language because it connects our mission to the strategy, right? If we exist to connect people to live the life with Jesus follower, we say, hey, every Jesus follower has a next step. If it’s about following Jesus, I joke with our church, not to insult your intelligence, but following Jesus implies movement. It implies you are taking steps. You cannot be following if you’re standing still.Scott Worthington — And you know this, but I mean there there are people in churches that have checked all the boxes: I give, I serve, I got baptized. And then they think, I’ve checked all the main assimilation boxes. I guess I must be done growing. And we know that is not the case. There’s always more of Christ. There’s always more of of his movement in our lives. Scott Worthington — And so that was language that we just, I mean, I end every email with that. We we talk about that in staff meeting. I mean, we are constantly using where are people on the spiritual journey and how do you take your next step? Or their staff, I’m I’m encouraging what’s, what’s your next step?Scott Worthington — With me, I’m always saying, Hey, I believe God’s leading me in my next step to this. And so language, I think starts it. And then of course you’ve got to give people handlebars. You’ve got to, and of course, including language, by the way, is is signage. I mean, there’s signs all over our campus now that, Hey, we want to help you take your next step.Scott Worthington — And then we developed what we call our Discovery tool, which I think has been really helpful tool that we’ve given people. It’s it’s very simple. It is, I think it’s 20 questions that just gauge to help people understand where they are on their spiritual journey.Scott Worthington — And I know some people might be thinking, well, that sounds like you’re labeling folks. And that is the number one pushback that we get on this. And I get it. I get it. People think if you tell people that where they are on the spiritual journey, they’re gonna feel like they’re labeled and they they can’t, you know whatever it may be. And I think Dallas Willard said, I’ll probably butcher this quote too, but he said, the only thing worse than helping people see where they are spiritually is not helping people where they are spiritually.Rich Birch — That’s good.Scott Worthington — Like it’s one of those, like, yes, there are dangers, if you will. Because you know, on the wrong hand, somebody could weaponize it and be like, well, you’re this way spiritually and I’m this way spiritually. But at the end of the day, as a church, we want to help people take next steps in their faith. Rich Birch — Yep. That’s good.Scott Worthington — And so that tool has been really helpful. So there’s like wayfinding signs all over our campus where they can scan a QR code and and take that tool. And we do that in our services. And we’re trying to help people just take a next step.Rich Birch — That’s great. I love that. That’s so good. Maybe we’ll link to that. I think I’ve seen that actually on your site or I saw that somewhere when I was poking around to even give people a sense of that. Don’t take the test though, friends. Just look at it because we don’t want to stuff your system with a bunch of you know bad data. But yeah, that’s that’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Pivoting a little bit to your team. So one of the interesting dynamics when any you know there’s a kind of lead pastor transition is obviously there was a team there when when you joined and they’re amazing people that God’s been using them, done great things. But a part of your early job is to assess kind of where things at and staff health and try to gain actual kind of insight from them and to think about the future.Rich Birch — When you think about those early days, what were you doing to to kind of establish yourself and and assess where things were at with your team?Scott Worthington — Yeah, I, again, because of the nature of our transition, I was not a new guy, right? That was, ah that I think is a lot of of transition leaders. They’re going, all right, need to establish myself and people need to get to know me. I’ve been here, ah there’s one other guy that’s been on staff longer than I have at this point. He’s one of my best friends. He’s still on our staff. He’s incredible. He’s been here 20 years. I’ve been here 19. Scott Worthington — And ah so I’m a known… it wasn’t like, hi, my name’s Scott. Let me let me get to know you. But now that I am the leader, what I wanted to do is I wanted to get to know the culture. I wanted to get to know what, What is really happening on our staff level, especially through a transition? You know, people people get all kinds of feels. And some people are like, uh-oh, what’s going to happen? Or some people may be excited or what it may be. Scott Worthington — So actually sat down, I recommend, depending on your size of or scope, whoever’s listening, this could be really helpful or maybe impossible to do. But you know, we had at that time probably a staff of about 80. And I literally brought every staff team in. You know, so you got small groups and worship and you know whatever it may be, break up with your departments. And whether it was the lead pastor of that ministry or the intern, I invited them all in.Scott Worthington — And I had them, I asked them five questions and I said, the point of this little 20 minute meetup is for me to talk less and you to talk more. I’m just going to take notes. And I asked, they were all culture questions. Where do you feel you know where do you feel most motivated for the mission right now at Hope Church? Stuff like that. Very much like, where do you feel like we have a strong culture and where do you feel like we need to grow as a culture? And I tried to be true to my word. I gave the questions and then I shut up and let them talk.Scott Worthington — And man, to hear, you know, the intern right next to the lead pastor of that ministry, just share honestly. And I didn’t give feedback. I didn’t defend. And there were things that you wanted to, right? You wanted to go, well, wait a minute, let me tell you why that is. And I just knew I’m getting data right now that will help me make decisions to help shape the culture that we want here at Hope. Rich Birch — Sure. Scott Worthington — And not to say that the culture was bad. Of course, I’m not saying that.Rich Birch — Yeah.Scott Worthington — But again, new leader, I need to see kind of what we’re dealing with it as you go forward and where people’s hearts and minds are as we as we walk through a major transition with our founding pastor. And so that was super, super clarifying and helpful for me as the leader. Then I can make decisions with my team to help um you know drive that culture to a better place.Rich Birch — That’s cool. The church has continued to grow and impact people, which is incredible. And that’s, you know, I think both to you, you know, to both of you guys’ credit… Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch — …to that you, you handled this transition in a way that it wasn’t like, Hey, things collapsed. So, you know, you just honor you for that. That’s, that’s incredible. Rich Birch — When you think about those early, you know, maybe year or two, what were some early signs that you felt as a leader, okay people are with me. Like this is, because there’s the like, there’s the someone’s going to take over, this is being foist upon you, but then eventually people decide are they going to follow you or not. Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch — What were some of those signs, where you’re, oh no, I think I think that’s going to work; people are going to follow me.Scott Worthington — Yeah, I think, man, it was just, it’s, it’s all God’s grace because, yeah, I know looking back now I was, I made some mistakes. You know, there’s that balance and anybody who’s, who’s led a transition knows this. Like there’s the balance of wanting to, you know, wanting to continue to do what, what God has been doing here at Hope. But then, you know, okay, I think I have this idea. And, you know, we, we did a couple ideas that were like, those are great. And then a couple ideas that were like, that was horrible. Let’s never do that again. Rich Birch — Love it. Scott Worthington — And even even through those, you know, some hard conversations with some longtime members that that had some questions. By the way, I think that’s another great tip. Like invite those in. And when somebody’s been at our church for 8, 10, 12, 20 years, and they request a meeting, it’d be really easy for me to be like you know, Come on, old timer. No, man, these are gifted saints who have given so much to this church. Like I would relish a meeting and and a lunch with them, even if it’s hard to hear. Scott Worthington — There were some, there were some like, hey, I got i got some questions on what we’re doing. And ah yeah, I would say, man when when even through some of that, God was continuing to save people here. Our baptism numbers are are higher than they’ve ever been. And I know, you know, I’m pretty hard on myself. So I know the mistakes that I’ve made. I know that, I mean, gosh, anybody who’s listened to this, who knows who Vance is, I don’t say this because I’m on a public podcast. I’ve said this behind closed doors. He’s one of, if not my favorite preacher of this generation. I mean, the dude can preach the paint off the walls. And up until this, this a funny little nugget up until, you know, I wasn’t the preacher here. I wasn’t even the secondary preacher. I was, I preached six or seven times a year. I was the one of the worship guys. I led the creative ministry. And when I began to lead Hope Church, I counted them because they’re all on one file on my computer. I had preached 37 times to adults in my whole life. Scott Worthington — Which, even if you hear that, like, that’s kind of crazy that Vance would hand off the baton to somebody who preached 37 times. So I knew, listen, I need to grow in my preaching. I’ve preached, you know, less than a few dozen times and I’m taking over for one of the greatest preachers ever. And a guy that I’ve sat under is preaching for 16 years and just grown so much. So all of that, and still God’s growing our church. Still people are getting baptized. It shows a couple of things, Rich. It’s not, it has nothing to do with me. It’s all his grace. But also they they do they do trust me.Scott Worthington — There were there were there were elements and and and initiatives we did and things we we we tried and and people showed up and and people were encouraging. And it was like, man, there there are glimpses of God’s grace that they’re with us. Not just me, my my leadership team. And and ah those were pretty evident really early on. And and I praise God for that, man, because those were those were wind in our sails.Rich Birch — I’d love to hear more about what you were doing to grow your preaching. That’s incredible. i think there are oftentimes in a transition like this, the the person that people are looking for is the like, who’s the person that’s been up 20 times a year or whatever. Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch — So what have you done to grow that side? What’s what’s that development track look like for you?Scott Worthington — Yeah, right in the beginning, I jumped into a I jumped into a preaching cohort that was a kind of a national thing that I that I got a part of. And I got to be a travel a few places with a group of guys for eight months. And and we just we just learned how to be better preachers from some of the best in the world. It was awesome. Scott Worthington — And I’m just a natural learner. And so I’ve just devoured the preaching books. And and then I knew everyone, you can do all that. At the end of the day, it’s reps, it’s reps.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s true.Scott Worthington — So as I look back at like those first couple months of sermons, I could tell I was I was trying to be, not trying to be Vance. I don’t think I’ve ever done that. But you know trying, it was just a little outside of me. And I praise God for the grace that our church has given me. But I feel like now I’m I’m finally a few years in finding my voice and finding what I’m good at and what I’m not.Scott Worthington — And and and so, yeah, it’s just it’s reps. But then also just learning from the pros, man. dDoing preaching cohorts and, you know, doing, you know, online modules and and and then listening to a ton of preaching and eating the meat, spitting out the bones. And I think all of that maybe just kind of contributed. And and I praise God, I’m still 39 years old and I have more than 37 reps under my belt now, but it’s still not a lot in comparison to many guys listening to this. And I can’t, I joke, I was like, I can’t wait to see the preacher I am at 50 years old. Another 11 years, man, I can’t wait. I can’t wait.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. That’s fantastic. Well, and that is, you know, there’s an interesting tension there I’ve said. So I’m not, um I used to think I was a good communicator and then I worked for some really great communicators. And so then I was like, oh man, I’m not very good at this. But, and so I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this part of what we do. And there is an interesting thing where, um like I’ve said to people, when we would have someone come and guest speak, you know I would say, listen, you you can’t ignore the community. The fact that the community has been developed under Vance teaching… Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and they’re they’re used to that. And so it’s not that you you don’t need to imitate him… Scott Worthington — Yeah. Rich Birch —…but you would you would be dumb to not at least consider that as you’re preaching, right? You need to think through, you can’t be like, oh, maybe something’s totally different because it’s just hard to make that transition. And so you’ve got to at least consider that in the in the transition.Scott Worthington — And the thing with that is, again, because of the nature of our transition, some things just naturally come out, not because I’m trying to be Vance, but it’s because I’ve sat under his teaching for 16 years, right?Rich Birch — Yes, 100%. 100%. Scott Worthington — Like it naturally comes out of me Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Scott Worthington — And it’s not like, oh, he’s copying Vance. It’s like, no, I’m i’m actually being the disciple that God raises up… Rich Birch — I’ve been influenced. Yeah. yesScott Worthington — …in churches that you are in for a long time.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, 100%, which is great, which is fantastic. So think I want you to put on kind of the theoretical hat. I want you to think about two different groups of people. First, the the successor is kind of the heir apparent sitting in a church today. They’re waiting in the wings. They haven’t been identified maybe even publicly, there’s been some conversation. What would you say to that person to be working on? I know that wasn’t your situation. It was kind of jumped quickly, but I would love to get your thoughts. What would you say to a leader that reaches out to you and asks, you know, hey, what what advice would you give them?Scott Worthington — I would say, yeah, and and just to to rewind real quick, it’s funny, there actually was, when Vance and I were doing our podcast, you know before and after a podcast, there would be these kind of these kind of statements of like, man, one day in eight or nine years when I retire, I think you’re the guy. But again, that was eight or nine years. So there was definitely kind of talks and it seemed like Vance kind of knew at some point, but then when he got the call to go lead the church funding organization, it was it just kind of got you know shifted into into… Rich Birch — Accelerated. Yeah. Scott Worthington — …yeah, accelerated, yeah. So, but I would say, man, in those in those moments, I just I just tried to remain humble and like, God, if if this is if this is what you want, awesome. If if it’s not, I also love what I’m doing.Scott Worthington — One of the things that I think, again, kind of feels weird saying this, but I’ve been you know told this and I do I do affirm it. I think one of the reasons why God opened the door and and put it on Vance’s heart and the leader’s heart at the time to to ask me to step into this is this was not something I was like shooting for. Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s goodScott Worthington — And and you know I got one of my best friends got back to plant a church in New York, New York City next year. We’re sending them out in in a couple months. Like he knew from a very early age that God put on his heart to plant a church. I’m not saying that’s bad. I think there are guys listening, people listening to this right now that are like, I am called to plant a church. That’s awesome. Or or called to lead a church. That was just not my story. Scott Worthington — I, whether I was a student pastor or the worship pastor, like I was grateful to be a part of whatever God had me doing. And it’s it’s that idea that Jesus says, right? Being faithful with little and then maybe being entrusted with much. And that doesn’t mean you’re always gonna get the top seat on the organization. But I was just like, okay, Lord, if that if that’s what you have for me one day when Vance retires, awesome. Prepare me now for that. Scott Worthington — And we know, again, back to Joshua and Moses, we know, man, Joshua shows up way back in the story. And he’s just the he’s just the dude that sent out to be a spy. Nobody at the time knew that he was going to be the leader, but God knew. And Joshua was faithful with what he had in front of him. Rich Birch — That’s good.Scott Worthington — Because I also have heard of transitions getting weird where like it doesn’t happen. Right? The heir apparent is like behind the scenes. It’s it’s it’s stamped and then five years come and go. And it’s like, hey, I don’t think this is it. And so if you put all of your eggs and like, I am the guy, rather than just holding it open to be like, Lord, this is what right now seems to be the plan. But you know many are the plans of a man, but the Lord directs the steps. So um yeah, I would say remain humble, remain dependent and ah be faithful in what’s put in your hands now. And if he opens that door, joyfully walk through it because his grace will sustain you.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. And the the other person I’m thinking about is somebody is in like the first 90 days, this transition has just taken place. When you look back to the early days of your transition, either what did you wish somebody said to you? Or maybe here was something that went well. Or, you know, maybe here’s here’s a pothole that I want you to avoid, and particularly in that first window, the first couple months, as you’ve started to walk into that.Scott Worthington — Yeah, it’s kind of the, I feel like pretty, pretty age old advice, but, you know, be careful with how fast you try to change things. I don’t think there’s a couple of things that I did that I definitely would go back and go, hey, that was, that was not, not wise. But I got some, some great advice. I had some great guys around me. And I think you have to listen more than you talk in those early days. You’ve you’ve got to learn, and again, it depends on if you’re the new guy or you’re like me, you came up in the organization, but you’re still now the new at the new seat. There’s still just a lot of learning.Scott Worthington — I mean, I remember the first time I sat down, it was it was before the official transition, of course, but it was it was right right around the summer of ’22 when I first sat down with like the the financial books for the first time. And I’d never seen any of that. And I just knew in that moment, I have so much to learn. That was an area that I just had never even even been in a back room in. And so um it was just, again, that humble posture. Like I have so much to learn here and I need to ask a lot more questions than I need to give directives. I need to ah I need to listen more than I need to talk.Scott Worthington — Of course, there’s moments when I’m leading my staff and all the things where I need to give vision and direction. And I’m not saying abdicate your responsibility as a leader, but um man, you don’t know what you don’t know, especially in those first 90 days. And I would even say six months to a year… Rich Birch — Right. Scott Worthington — …where you’re just learning things. And then I just took a lot of people out to coffee, lot of people to lunch in our church. And I just, I started to ask questions about how they feel about the culture of Hope and how we can grow and how we can get better. Scott Worthington — And yeah, I gave my staff a lot of access. Some people will be like, oh, that’s dangerous. I literally put a glass door in my office and I said, hey, at any point you guys want to swing by if you got questions about what you see. I’ve called them just softball tosses. Like what are those softball tosses that you can do, you know, eating lunch in the break room, if you if you have a break room, or taking your staff to lunch. Because people are looking for you to become now the bougie senior leader that doesn’t have time for the staff.Scott Worthington — At least that’s been in my spirit. Like people are looking like, oh, now, you know, now Scott’s the the top guy. And I just was like, I’ve never been that guy. I’ve never been the the guy that isolates. And so I’m still going to eat my lunch in the break room. I’ll never forget. We had a staff member come in and it was like three weeks after the transition. She said, what are you doing in here? And she was genuinely shocked that I was eating lunch in the break room. And I laughed and I said, I’ve been eating lunch in this break room for 15 years. And and that was an easy win. Like that created a culture. Scott Worthington — And now I eat lunch with our staff in the break room. And I know, you know, depending on the the scope this scope and scale of whoever’s listening, that could be different. But a large church like us, like they they didn’t expect that from me. And so um it was an easy win. So man, look for easy wins. Listen more than you talk and and just be humble that that you’re going to learn a lot in those those early days.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I think the the posture of humility goes a long way. And it’s interesting how those, it’s like a relatively small thing, but like something as simple as like, hey, you know, eat in the break room, I think can can speak volumes to people and earn you chips… Scott Worthington — Yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — …for then, you know, other things that are coming. Scott, this has been a super helpful conversation. Any last words as we wrap up today’s conversation?Scott Worthington — Yeah, I would just, I think I want to encourage the listeners with what the discipleship that I’ve learned here at to Hope for so long. Because I know, I know, I know, even this morning, ministry leaders can can get so busy that they they start to think, I can skip out on my time with the Lord. And again I just honor Pastor Vance for teaching me this for so many years. It really cannot be said enough that your primary call on your life, if you’re listening to this and you’re in ministry and you got a big role and a big title and a big church, and you’re even a small role, a small title, small church, you have responsibility over people. Jesus was not lying when he said, apart from me, you can do nothing. But if we abide in him, we bear much fruit. Scott Worthington — Dude, it’s crazy as the enemy deceives us into thinking, well, we can skip that part so that I can go make much fruit. You can’t. It’s a dead branch cut off from the vine. You can’t bear any fruit. But connected to the vine, spending that time with Jesus, really cultivating a true, deep relationship with the Lord actually is what produces the fruit. And I don’t know maybe somebody needs to hear that this morning like I need to hear that.Rich Birch — No, that’s fantastic. Scott, thank you so much for being here today, for taking some time to spend with us. If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online?Scott Worthington — Yeah, hopechurchlv.com, hopechurchlv.com. That’s got all our stuff. And we’re on the socials with all the the same handle, hopechurchlv. And any way we can serve the the greater kingdom, man, we’re down for it.Rich Birch — Great. Thanks so much for being here today. I appreciate that.Scott Worthington — Thank you, guys.

How do you lead your church tech team after a tornado has lifted off your church's roof? In this episode, we are joined by Mac Brown of Second Baptist Church in Houston, TX. We start by tackling the tension between the pulpit and the tech booth before diving into one of the wildest stories we've ever heard on the podcast: leading a church tech team after a literal tornado ripped the roof off their building.In this episode you'll hear: 0:00 Pastor vs. Production: Who Wins Setup Disputes?6:30 Mac Brown (Second Baptist Houston) Joins8:30 When a Tornado Rips the Roof Off Your Church10:30 Mac's Start in Church Production17:45 Leading a Tech Team Through a Tornado Disaster23:00 Acoustic Treatment vs. Room Aesthetics25:00 Lessons from Portable Church to Permanent Building28:30 Did Pastor Ed Young Take a Helicopter Between Services?31:00 Second Houston's Most Difficult Production Projects34:15 Communicating Unrealistic Executive Requests to Your Team40:45 Church Tech Disaster Story43:45 Tech TakeawayGet expert help and care on your next integration project with our friends at HouseRight here.  Get more money back in your budget and more space in your closet by selling us your used gear here.  Apply to work at ChurchGear here!Resources for your Church Tech Ministry Sell Us Gear: Does your church have used gear that you need to convert into new ministry dollars? We can make you an offer here. Buy Our Gear: Do you need some production gear but lack the budget to buy new gear? You can shop our gear store here. Connect with us: Sales Bulletin: Get better deals than the public and get them earlier too here! Early Service: Get our best gear before it goes live on our site here. Instagram: Hangout with us on the gram here! Reviews: Leaving us a review on the podcast player you're listening to us on really helps the show. If you enjoyed this episode, you can say thank you with a review!

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Dr. Allen Holmes, Senior Pastor of Definition Church. Allen has served at Definition for 25 years, leading it from a congregation of 30 people to one of the fastest-growing churches in the country. But in this conversation, we don't start with strategy—we start with the soul. Allen shares how a personal marriage crisis early in ministry exposed deep character issues and launched him on a decades-long journey of spiritual formation that has shaped both his leadership and his church. Is it possible that the greatest lid on your ministry isn't your strategy—but your inner life? Allen challenges leaders to rethink success, crisis, and longevity through the lens of character formation. Pressure reveals who you really are. // Leadership rarely collapses because of incompetence—it collapses because pressure exposes unaddressed character issues. Early in seminary and marriage, Allen's wife told him she didn't love him and didn't want to remain in ministry. The crisis shattered his sense of calling and identity. Allen—by God's grace—was able to ask: What in me has produced this? That shift from defensiveness to humility marked the beginning of deep transformation. From gifted producer to formed leader. // Allen explains that many leaders are rewarded for production, not formation. A gifted communicator can build a crowd while remaining insecure, defensive, and relationally immature. You can be a great producer and a poor leader. True leadership requires learning to lead yourself. For Allen, that meant confronting independence, insecurity, and relational blind spots—issues rooted in his upbringing that were sabotaging both marriage and ministry. Prioritizing presence over performance. // The turning point in Allen's growth was deceptively simple: he began prioritizing his relationship with Jesus. Guided by a mentor, he learned to read Scripture for formation rather than information and to cultivate rhythms of prayer, worship, and dependence on the Holy Spirit. Ministry leaders face an occupational hazard—handling Scripture transactionally for sermons while neglecting personal communion with Christ. For Allen, consistent morning surrender became the foundation for long-term sustainability. Marriage as spiritual formation. // Allen describes marriage as God's primary classroom for sanctification. Drawing from the biblical metaphor of Christ and the Church, he explains how learning to live in the presence of his wife taught him how to live in the presence of God. Simple daily rhythms—morning prayer, consistent check-ins, shared meals, evening walks, praying together—have sustained their relationship for decades. Rather than competing with ministry, his marriage strengthens it. What God forms privately shapes what leaders produce publicly. Culture flows from character. // Over 25 years, Allen's commitment to personal formation has shaped Definition Church's culture. Every staff member has a “rule of life” and an intentional growth plan. Personal development is written into job descriptions as the number-one responsibility. Staff are given monthly retreat days to spend extended time alone with Jesus. Spiritual practices are embedded into the life of the church. Allen believes you reproduce who and what you are—so the greatest contribution a leader can make is becoming more like Christ. The power of staying. // Allen notes that lasting impact often requires long tenure. His senior leadership team has served together for decades, building trust and shared formation. In a skeptical culture, credibility grows through consistency. But longevity without formation is dangerous. The process prepares leaders for the purpose; bypassing the process risks collapse. Like Joseph's journey from entitlement to anointing in the Old Testament, leaders must pass through refining seasons before they can steward influence well. To learn more about Definition Church, explore their resources, and connect with Allen, visit definition.church. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Today’s going to be a really good conversation. It’s one of those conversations that I think we all need to have, looked carefully at, think about ourselves, think about the teams we lead. I really do think it’s one of those make or break kind of conversations. And so you’ll be rewarded for tuning in today. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dr. Allen Holmes with us. He’s a senior pastor of a church called Definition Church. He’s been there since 2000, so a few years. They’re located in North Carolina and is one of the fastest growing churches in the country. They have a residency program as well that’s called to train and develop next generation of mission-minded ministry leaders. And believing that generosity is a privilege, Definition Church also partners with a number of other ministries, churches, and organizations to really serve their community. Dr. Allen, so glad you’re here. Thanks for being here today.Allen Holmes — Wow. Well, I’m so excited to be here, Rich, and appreciate the invitation.Rich Birch — Oh, this is going to be a fun conversation. Why don’t you kind of fill out the picture?Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — Tell us a little bit about Definition. Kind of tell us the story. Give us a sense of the church.Allen Holmes — Well, my wife and I, we grew up down in Wilmington, which is on the coast of North Carolina. In 2000, we were finishing seminary and looking for a church, really looking for a city where we could plant our life and stay in one place kind of forever. And we were in a small town. Our first church was in a small town of about 1500. And Greensboro was one of the cities we visited, and there was a church here that had lost their pastor. They only had about 30 people.Allen Holmes — And the truth is that was safe and kind of gave us a a lot of freedom to make mistakes and learn and grow as leaders and as a man and a woman, as a married couple, as parents, you know, all the things without mistakes, really the pressure of a big church and a lot of expectations. And that was perfect for us. And and we fell in love with the city and it’s been 25 years now. It’s hard to believe that. And and but we love it here. Greensboro’s home now and and Definition’s been great to us.Rich Birch — So good. Well, I want to take advantage of the fact that you’ve been at your location, at your church for a number of years. When you look back over two and a half decades of ministry, and you know you’ve seen a lot of churches in your community, and then just even wider you know across the country, that sort of thing. Where have you seen leadership fall apart in churches? We’ll start with the negative to start.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — When’s it break down most often? Why does, you know, why do the wheels come off? Where have you seen that happen?Allen Holmes — You know, I think generally it’s just anything that creates pressure. So I think we have a tendency to train and prepare as leaders when there’s no pressure.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then all of a sudden we find ourselves in a situation where there’s a tremendous amount of pressure. And in those moments, it’s not what we know that matters, but who we are. Rich Birch — So true.Allen Holmes — It kind of gets it gets exposed. And this happened for me the first time I was in seminary. It was my second semester. My wife, Tina, and I had just gotten married. So we were five months into marriage. I was living my dream. I mean, seminary for, you know, somebody who wants to be a pastor is like Disney World, right? I mean, I’m in class every day studying the Bible, surrounded by all these people that love Jesus. I’ve got this vision for changing the world. I mean, it was just wonderful.Allen Holmes — And in month five, towards the end of that second semester, I came home and and my wife wasn’t doing well. I didn’t realize, you know, how bad it was. But that day I came home and she said, I don’t love you. Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And I don’t want to be married. I will never be in the ministry. I'm going home.Rich Birch — Wow.Allen Holmes — And it’s like, all of a sudden, my whole world just began to fall apart. You know, at that stage of life, the only thing that really mattered to me was ministry. You know I had this call, this sense of calling. And my marriage.Allen Holmes — I really I grew up in a broken home, really didn’t have any family. And my wife and actually her family were family to me.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And so in that moment, it felt like I was losing everything that mattered. Rich Birch — Wow. Allen Holmes — And I realized that despite all of my gifts and my zeal and my passion and my good intentions, beneath the surface, I had all of this on all of these unaddressed issues from my life story that were now coming to the surface and creating a mess in my marriage. And that crisis, that pressure exposed those things and created an opportunity for me to learn and grow. And by God’s grace, we dropped out of seminary, we moved back home. And I met Dr. Bennett, who became a mentor to me. He was a retired pastor.Allen Holmes — And I just started this journey of instead of being focused on just what I do and what I could produce, which is all I knew up until that moment, to really asking some deeper questions about who am I? And what’s driving all of this behavior and what’s creating this problem in my marriage? And how do I invite Christ to really do a deeper work in my heart and life and character? And and I’ve been on that journey now for almost 30 years.Rich Birch — Wow. That’s incredibly compelling. One of my mentors, he talks about how he burnt out early and he had kind of, you know, ended up on the side of the road and, you know, in a really bad spot in life. And he says, he looks back on that and says, wow, by by God’s grace, that happened. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — You know, and, and wow, that, you know, his whole, it changed the whole trajectory of you know his life and he made a whole bunch of changes. And he feels really, in a weird sort of way, thankful for for that, if even though you’re thankful, it feels like a weird emotion to have around such a crisis you know in you know in your life. Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — Now, so many leaders, we’re so focused on the mission. We’re so focused on leading others. We’re so focused on pushing forward. We miss this stuff. There's there are these things bubbling under the surface. And and we haven’t had the grace of a wife who would raise her hand and say, hey, this enough is enough. Why do you think that gap is so common in ministry? Why is this just like a thing we see all the time?Allen Holmes — Well, I think to your point, in ministry, just like not just in ministry, but any organizational leadership, you’re rewarded and celebrated for what you produce. And the truth is that’s all most people can see. I mean, when my marriage blew up, if you would have gone around and interviewed my friends, my family, Tina’s family, my professors, if you would have asked anybody about me, they would have said, Allen's a rising star. He loves God. I mean, he he’s doing all the stuff. He’s checking all the boxes. This guy’s going to really be somebody one day.Allen Holmes — But what you couldn’t see is that beneath the surface, I didn’t know who I was. And I was insecure. I was defensive. I was independent. I really didn’t know how to do relationships well. I was insensitive.Allen Holmes — I didn’t have like a bad, ugly heart. I mean, I loved and cared about people. I just had all of these unaddressed, unfinished issues in my life. But my giftedness would allow me to produce despite that.Allen Holmes — You know, I think sometimes people um wonder why are leaders great at leading, but, you know, they struggle to lead themselves. I’m not sure that’s really a real thing. What leaders are good at doing is they’re great at producing. They’re not great at leading if they're not great at leading themselves. In other words, I can be a great producer and a bad leader.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — I can be great on stage and draw a crowd and kind of be a slave-driving leader. And it might, from a numbers perspective and people that aren’t close, they look at it and think, wow, this is wildly successful. But the people on the inner circle know better, that the culture is unhealthy and and this person’s, you know, shallow or he’s a tyrant or whatever the, you know, whatever the case might be.Allen Holmes — There’s all kinds of ways to build a crowd in American culture today that have very little to do with Jesus. And we’ve seen that over and over and over again. So I think in order to be a great leader, you have to be able and willing to lead yourself.Rich Birch — So what did that process look like for you the kind of internal journey of trying to name what your wife had or or define maybe what your wife had named to really get clarity on that? Maybe unpack that step a little bit first before we get on to what changed. You know, how how did you, what did that look like? How, what kind of space did you have to create? What, what, did where did that, what did that part of the journey take you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, when I look back on all this, I’m, you know, I’m just so grateful for God’s grace because I didn’t even understand the process I was in. I mean, you know, I was just in it and trying to navigate it. But by God’s grace, I decided to ask the question, what in my character has produced this in my marriage. And what’s really shocking about that is all of my seminary buddies were saying, what is wrong with your wife? Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And I, by God’s grace, was saying, what’s wrong with me?I had enough humility to look at my wife and go, you know, I married this woman because she was so full of grace and kind and gentle, this beautiful soul, this beautiful person. So if she’s reacting this way, chances are she’s not the problem. You know, sometimes.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow.Allen Holmes — Something about our relationship is producing that. And actually, so what it was is, my wife grew up in this really great, healthy family, parent, two-parent home, siblings, people in her house all the time. Her mom cooked every night. I ate at their house five nights a week. I mean, it’s like their family became my family.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Well, I grew up with none of that. I grew up with a single mom, basically all by myself, raising myself. And those two worlds just collided. So when we went seminary, I was doing school full-time and working full-time, and she was working full-time. And I thought, well, that was normal. That’s what I’d been doing for years and years. I’d worked my way through college. I’d been and on my own since I was 18.Allen Holmes — And so that seemed normal. But for Tina, it’s like she went from living in this beautiful community to being all by herself at seminary, and I’m not even there. Rich Birch — Right, right. Wow.Allen Holmes — And she’s and so she was relationally just dying, and I didn’t know how to be sensitive to that. You know, I wanted to just say, you know, get over it. Life’s hard…Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — …which would not have worked. Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Allen Holmes — You know But I just had enough grace to begin asking, God, what are you trying to do in my heart? And and like you were saying earlier about your buddy, the thing I would say today, if I would have married a woman strong enough to tolerate that moment, I would have been I would have never survived in ministry because I would have been a driven, legalistic, judgmental, demanding kind of pastor that that really, I think, used the Bible to beat people up.Allen Holmes — And I mean, instead of being a man who really actually experienced, I guess, an inner this inner, deeper work and can invite people into something that is deeply spiritual and transformational and life-giving, you know, I would have just been this ugly, difficult pastor to be with. And so I’m so grateful. I mean, that that really began this journey that just changed and has literally touched everything about my life and ministry and our marriage today. I mean, it’s amazing.Rich Birch — Yeah. So what, what changed? What, how did you change your, you know, approach to making decisions, to dealing with the pressure, dealing with the pace? You know, obviously we were kind of at the point in the journey where you took a pause and made some changes, but eventually, you know, you ended up back on that path and back into ministry and have been leading and the ministry has been flourishing. So what were some of the, the kind of shifts that you made that were that, in hindsight seemed like that was, those were keystone decisions.Allen Holmes — Well, this sounds so silly to even say it, especially to Christian leaders, but I had to prioritize my relationship with Jesus.Rich Birch — Right, right.Allen Holmes — Well, there’s a good idea.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, exactly. Write that down. What did he say? No but that’s true, though. Lean in on that because you know that there are…Allen Holmes — Yes.Rich Birch — Listen, we all know we go, we all go through seasons where that our relationship goes colder. Some of us, we, you know, we just, it’s been like years, decades since we feel like we’ve had a thriving relationship. So lean in on that.Allen Holmes — Well, you know, it’s interesting when I when we moved back to Wilmington and I started spending time with Dr. Bennett, he just he just pressed me on that all the time. Give your mornings to Jesus. Give your mornings to Jesus. And I just began learning how do I develop a meaningful time with Jesus every day? How do I read the Bible for formation instead of information.Rich Birch — That’s good.Allen Holmes — And how, you know, how do I worship for formation? How do I what is my relationship to the Holy Spirit and inviting him into those moments to help me see and to understand, to teach and to heal and to counsel me into healing, wholeness, growth, all those things.Allen Holmes — You know, how do I press into community? You know, I was so independent. And the truth is, I mean, 30 years later, I’m still working on this.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I was so trained to be independent and I liked being independent. I wasn’t unhappy independent… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …but independence allows you to hold on to your immaturity because nobody’s challenging it.Rich Birch — Nobody’s in your business.Allen Holmes — Nobody’s confronted. That’s right. And so I just began really developing that time with Jesus and just fell in love with spending time with Jesus. And again, that that changed everything. And again, as silly as that sounds, I’ve been in so many groups. It’s kind of shocking how often I’m with pastors and they just say, I just, I don’t have time to read my Bible.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — I don’t have time to worship. I can’t give 15 or 20 minutes in the mornings to the Lord. And it’s like, if that if that’s true, then something is just so out of order about our life and ministry. And we’ve not learned to juggle all of that. And because we’re not handling that well, so many pastors, they don’t finish in ministry. Rich Birch —Right.Allen Holmes — Ministry chews them up and spits them out. And so we have to make that the priority. So important. So important.Rich Birch — Yeah, I really appreciate that. I appreciate you leaning in on that. And this is an area where it’s an occupational hazard in what we’ve picked to do…Allen Holmes — Oh, yeah. That’s right.Rich Birch — …because our our job is to produce that in other people. And so we have to handle the scripture in in a way, you know, it’s like a part of what we do to produce the content we produce or whatever that is. And it can become very transactional if we don’t watch. And so I really appreciate you leaning in on that.Allen Holmes — That’s exactly right.Rich Birch — What about on the married side? What advice would you give? Again, you’ve, you’ve are happily married today and you know, all these years later.Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s right.Rich Birch — And, what, what rhythms have you found that have worked well for you and your wife, for you to continue to lead and to lead, you know, at a high level. The reason why we’re talking is because you’re leading a fast-growing church.Allen Holmes — Yeah.Rich Birch — But, you know, you’re doing that and keeping your marriage. What are some of the rhythms that you, that you help coach other, maybe younger leaders to, to really instill on that side, to, to, to be, to be whole on that side?Allen Holmes — One of the things that was so helpful early on is recognizing that my marriage was God’s gift to me to learn, not just to grow and to mature as a man, but even to learn to walk with God.Allen Holmes — And one of the things you see in Scripture over and over and over again is the primary metaphor God uses to describe our relationship with Him as a husband and a wife, that we’re the bride of Christ.Allen Holmes — And what I found is that my marriage and my relationship with Jesus were running in parallel. So if I learned something with Tina, it strengthened my relationship with Jesus. And when I would learn something with Jesus, it would actually strengthen my relationship with Tina, that they were you know playing off of each other that way.Allen Holmes — And so as Tina and I started working on our marriage, I mean, it was it was as simple like even when I think about giving my mornings to God. When I wake up every day, the first thing I do is I roll over on my knees. I acknowledge Jesus, you are my king, king of my heart and life.Allen Holmes — I invite the Holy Spirit to fill me fresh for that day. And I probably pray there three to five minutes, and then I roll over on my back and put my hand on my sleeping wife. And I just take a minute and begin praying and and blessing my wife.Allen Holmes — And then I’ll get up and I’ll I’ll kind of have of usually a couple hours where I can just be in the Word, I can worship, I can be in so have silence and solitude and just allow God to minister to my soul. And then i don’t ever leave the house without giving my wife a kiss, telling her I love her, embracing her.Allen Holmes — During the day, I’m going to check in two or three times. How’s your day going? What’s going on with you? You know, if I’m driving somewhere or between meetings, you know, little quick touches. Rich Birch — That's good.Allen Holmes — When I get home, I’m going to walk in the house. The first thing I’m going do is I’m going to find Tina. We’re going to eat dinner together that night. At the end of the day, we’re going to maybe go on a walk that night. We may get in bed and just both be reading a book for a little bit. We might talk about our day or what’s going on with our kids or life.Allen Holmes — Before we go to bed, before we go to sleep, we’ll pray together. And again, I want to make sure that I’m affirming my love for… When I describe all of that to people and what I try to tell them is have a response. The Christian life is learning to live in the presence of God. And marriage is learning to live in the presence of your wife.Allen Holmes — And so I know throughout the day what’s going on in the heart of my wife and how to love and serve her well, even when I’m here at work. And as a Christian, I’ve got to learn how do I live in the presence of God and recognize he’s always with me. And I want to bring Jesus into every moment, every meeting, every decision. And versus I have devotional time and I leave God at home. And then I come to work and do my work.Allen Holmes — So that’s just one example. As I learned how to do that with Tina, I saw how to apply to my relationship with God and vice versa.Rich Birch — That's so good. Yeah, that’s so helpful. Let’s talk about how your internal life and your own growth and your own staying close to him, what impact has that had on the church, on your team, on the people you lead? How do you see those two, you know, working together?Allen Holmes — Yeah, that’s a great question. So part of it is you reproduce who and what you are. Rich Birch — True. Allen Holmes — So what we’re describing, and of course, I’ve got 25 years of this, and so that gives me a little bit of an advantage in that regard because this takes time to build. You know, it doesn’t happen overnight. But when this has been kind of the direction of your life for over 25 years, then it becomes the direction of the organization and the people that you lead. And so on our on our church staff and our church and the way we do ministry, the way our we you know our mission is all affected by what we’re talking about.Allen Holmes — And so our staff, that you know, they all have a rule of life. They all have a very intentional plan a plan for their spiritual and personal and leadership growth in their life. And and we work as a team to to facilitate that. In fact, in our job descriptions, their number one responsibility is their personal growth and development. And we tell them all the time, the greatest thing you can do for everyone in your life is to learn and grow as a leader. That’s the greatest contribution you can make. When you do that, you everybody comes up. you You bless everybody. So work harder on who you are than what you’re building.Allen Holmes — And so we just emphasize that. And and then we do little things like, you know, in our in our church culture, we once a month, they have a retreat day where they’re required to go and be alone with Jesus for a whole day. And they’re being paid to do it. Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — It’s their, you know, it’s part of their job. We emphasize a spiritual practice every month, and we’re doing that in all of our groups, and we model that as a staff. Like in January, our spiritual practice is fasting, and we’re about to begin you know a season of prayer and fasting like a lot of churches do in January. And so that’s integrated into everything that we’re doing as a church and to our staff. They’re encouraged to do that, and so we’re just constantly making sure that they’re learning and growing. And then that begins to shape the culture your church. It shapes your ability to actually make disciples in your church. I mean, at the end of the day, if on a scale of 1 to 10, as a follower of Christ, if I’m a five, I can only lead three and fours… Rich Birch — Right. Allen Holmes — …and I can only attract twos.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And then there’s nobody that I can help, right?Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Yes.Allen Holmes — Because I’m already at the bottom.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Yeah.Allen Holmes — But if I can be an eight and lead sixes and sevens and attract four and fives, then we can reach down and help the two and threes get up, you know. So my what God is doing in me, and that’s true for everybody on our team, is the greatest contribution they can make, and it brings everybody up. And so that’s just really worked into our culture.Rich Birch — Think at like from a diagnostic point of view. A church calls you up and they feel stuck organizationally. They feel like, man, things are just, they’re not going well. When you take a call like that, is your reflex to go towards, well, where are things with the with the leadership team internally?Rich Birch — Or you know do we start organizationally? Hey, let’s fix a couple of things. Help us talk think Help us think through um how do you handle that kind of conversation? Or how does this conversation inform a conversation like that when it comes your way?Allen Holmes — That’s a great question. I mean, generally my response will be, I’ll tell people really, if you need organizational, just kind of practical, how do I do it information, I just give them some resources, you know, so I’ll send them, go to the Grow Conference. They’re probably the best in the world at it. Rich Birch — Yeah, they're so good.Allen Holmes — They can tell you how to do these different things. But then I want to come back to the thing I think we can help you with is really the soul of your organization, which is a reflection of what God’s doing in you. So let’s talk about who you are as a leader, the way you live your life, the way you lead your staff, the culture that you’re building and creating. Because ultimately, if you get all these systems, but you don’t have culture, culture trumps systems every single time.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — And when you get the systems and the culture right, you begin, everybody’s attracted to that. In fact, I think maybe one of the big problems in Western culture, and this is hard to admit, but I think the church has to admit this, is that people, people are not going to church. Church attendance is on decline, but it’s not because people don’t want God. They’re just not convinced they can find him at church.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s so true. Yeah.Allen Holmes — I mean, they’re they’re spiritually hungry, but the cultures of our church, people come into that culture and what they kind of intuitively know is that this doesn’t feel healthy or spiritual. So you can create all the systems you want and send out flyers and do all kinds of things. But if people show up at your church and what they intuitively know is that this isn’t healthy and spiritual, you can’t grow your church. So you have to begin there.Allen Holmes —It’s also true if it is healthy and spiritual, even if your systems are a little suspect, people will tolerate a lot of a lot of that because they’re so spiritually hungry. And I think that’s more true than ever before.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very true. Yeah. Well, yeah, my good friend, Carey Nieuwhof, he says like, man, it would be so sad if people came to our churches and all they found was us, right? You know, at the end of the day, right? Like we were trying to point them to Jesus and as as kind of elementary as it sounds, but it’s just so true.Rich Birch — If there isn’t something happening there that’s bigger than just what they can get anywhere else, why would they come to us? Why would they engage in our churches? Yeah, that’s that’s…Allen Holmes — You know, we just came through Christmas, and and one of the things that I think Protestants miss is is when we think about Christmas, we think about Emmanuel, God with us. We think about the incarnation, God became flesh, and we think that’s something that happened 2,000 years ago. And the truth is, that’s supposed to be true of the church today. We are the body of Christ.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — God in us. And when that’s true, people, when they show up at our churches or show up at our dinner table, they should experience Jesus when they’re with us because we’re becoming more and more like him.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, it’s good.Allen Holmes — And then our life gives validity to our message.Rich Birch — Well, one of the things I’m working on a book for for churches about breaking the 2,000 barrier. And one of the interesting stats that we’ve bumped into is that oftentimes the, when a church breaks the 2,000 barrier, the senior leader and often the senior leadership team have been there for going on two decades, 18 years, 19 years, 22 years. Like it’s just a really common pattern you see.Rich Birch — Now that’s not the perception. Our perception is like, oh, there’s like the just add water mega fast church that just explodes and it all happens. But that actually isn’t the normative pattern. the Normative pattern is it’s it takes a long time. You’ve been at your church for 25 years. Talk us through how longevity, how does that tie into this conversation? How does it tie into the impact you’re seeing, you know, at Definition? Talk us through that.Allen Holmes — Yeah. You know, it’s interesting when I, one of the other real key moments for me is I went back to do my doctorate of ministry degree at Gordon-Conwell in redemptive leadership. And so much of what we were studying is how God works in the crisis, in these pressure moments to, you know, expose the unfinished places in our character so that we can grow and become more like Jesus and therefore maximize our kingdom impact in the world.Allen Holmes — And one of my professors, Dr. Powers, he actually wrote a book called Redemptive Leadership. It’s a simple little book, but profound, where he describes leadership development in five stages. And stage one is is a skilled leader where you get a leadership role just based on your skill. So maybe the ability to preach. And so they call you to be the pastor. That’s how I became the pastor of my first church. I could preach. I hadn’t done anything else. But they let me be a pastor because I can preach.Allen Holmes — And then the second stage is a principal leader where you begin to understand why you do what you do. But the third stage, which is so important, is the character stage. And in order for a leader to go through the character stage, God always uses a crisis to bring him into that stage. But when he comes into that stage, he has a choice.Allen Holmes — In that stage, he can open his heart and allow God to do that deeper work, or he can go back and hide behind his skills and principle. And that’s what pastors do a lot of times. The reason you see this turnover every, you know, depending on what statistic you read, every two to four years, pastors are leaving churches is because they come into a church and they have this honeymoon season, and then all of a sudden there’s a crisis that exposes some things, and they start floating their resume and hiding behind their skill, rather than allowing God to deal with their character so that they can advance and become a transformative, redemptive leader. Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — So I think one of the things that’s been so true for us is we’ve just tried to say to people, when there’s a crisis, don’t panic, don’t run away, see it as an opportunity.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — In fact, I ended up doing my dissertation on the idea that if we could teach this model to leaders, that it would cause them to respond differently in the crisis. Instead of running from it, they would run to it and open their heart, and God could use that to really propel them into their redemptive future. And the research said that was true.Allen Holmes — And so we’ve tried to really work that in our culture to understand when something goes wrong, don’t run away and don’t hide.Rich Birch — Right.Allen Holmes — Let’s run into it and trust God to meet us there so that this thing, God works redemptively to use it for your benefit and to launch you into your future. And because that’s been our culture, people have stuck around. I mean, my lead team, Rick has been here 25 years. He’s actually here two Sundays longer than I’ve been here. Rich Birch — Love it.Allen Holmes — Eric’s been here 24 years. Jonathan’s been here 19 years. Steve’s been Chelsea’s been here almost this year will be 14 years. Steve’s been here 10 years. I mean, so they’ve just been here a long, long, long time, and that but that’s why, is that they’ve seen these moments and we’ve helped them to find God in it so that actually works for us instead of against us.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s great. I love that. You know, I think if more churches, if more leaders had the mindset, even as we led our people that like, hey, if they come to us and it feels like there’s a crisis brewing here, I do feel like our culture is so bent towards like, it’s not just them leaving, it’s us leaving them. It’s like, okay, time’s up, you’re done, like move on. We would never say it that way because we’re better Christians and we know, but but that’s the vibe we give people.Allen Holmes — Right.Rich Birch — And And I do think it’s been interesting as we’ve been looking really from a church growth point of view, this is a really sticky trend that we see that it’s like you, the key leaders have to be here for a long time. And it makes sense on lots of levels. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — This level, it makes sense. It makes sense on just like community influence. Like you you have to be around for a long time. People are super suspicious of the church and they’re not You know, they don’t come like that maybe 30 years ago, people trusted the church. Well, that’s just not true anymore. Allen Holmes — Right. Rich Birch — And so when you’re around for a long time that, you know, that makes a difference. And it’s hard to, it’s not like a really pithy bullet point because it’s like, well, just stick around. But it is, it’s critically important to the, you know, to the overall mix.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, that make that reminds me of a couple of things. One, one of the, think, things we have to be careful about today is I think we are doing such a good job of planting churches. We’re all for church planting. We just help the church in our city plant. We’re about to launch somebody out next year to plant under the church. I mean, that’s a fantastic thing, but we’ve gotten so good at it.Allen Holmes — If you’re a 30-year-old and you plant a church and you start with 500 on day one, it could be detrimental to your spiritual journey. And we just have to kind of recognize that.Rich Birch — Talk more about that. Why would that be?Allen Holmes — Well, like when I think about myself, when I came to Definition, we had about 30 people, and we did not average 100 for an entire year until my seventh year here.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — Now, during those seven years, I thought it was the greatest church in America. I mean, we were having a good time, and we were basically a college ministry more than a church back then. When I came, we had an older congregation, but my first Sunday, 15 college students showed up.Rich Birch — Okay.Allen Holmes — And, of course, I was only 26, and so I naturally gravitated towards them. We kind of became this college ministry, and it wasn’t until several years later that they were old enough to get married and start having babies that we actually became a real church. And, uh, but during that time, the truth is God, I just believe God was in that because I was still so young and inexperienced and immature as a man and leader that the last thing I needed was any more success.Allen Holmes — It would have really, success can really blind you to your areas of, you know, where you need really need to grow. In fact, one of the things that you see in several places in Scripture, and one of the things that we tell our church all that time, that the Christian life is a lifelong, transformational journey with Christ. Rich Birch — Yep.Allen Holmes — And you see this in several places in Scripture. Let me give you a couple examples. You think about Joseph. I don’t if you’ve ever thought about this story, but I was preaching on it a couple of years ago, and I realized in this story, there are three times that Joseph has a coat. His first coat as a child is a coat of entitlement, and it needs to be ripped off.Rich Birch — Yes.Allen Holmes — His next coat was given by Pharaoh. It’s a coat of self-sufficiency. It needs to be ripped off, and Potiphar’s wife took it off. And then third, there’s a coat of anointing where he’s come through this crucible. He’s come through these seasons of pain and struggle and wrestling and and suffering that has produced this character. And now God can elevate him and give him almost unlimited power and authority without the threat of him abusing it.Allen Holmes — Well, without that process, God could never. If God puts any man in that position without that process, it destroys you. I mean, you you’re not prepared. You can’t handle that. You know, tell people all the time that one of the reasons God doesn’t just tell us our future, you know, people are always wanting to know, you know, what’s God going to do?Allen Holmes — And the truth is, if God told us what we were going to be doing in 10 years, we’d try to go there tomorrow. And the process prepares us for our purpose. You cannot bypass the process… Rich Birch — That’s good. Allen Holmes — …and still fulfill your purpose.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — And so God works in that that challenge. I think about Psalm 23, and I think Psalm 23 describes three stages. First stage is that I’m this child. I’m very young and immature in my faith. And then I become this warrior. And then I eventually become friend. But I have to go through the valley of the shadow of death to get up that mountain in order to be a friend of God. Allen Holmes — And there’s no way to bypass that. it’s seeing you You see this over and over and over again in scripture. And it’s just part of our sanctification. It’s the way God works in our lives.Rich Birch — It’s so good.Allen Holmes — Now, one of the things that sometimes somebody might hear all this and they go, well, I know so-and-so. I’ll give you a great example, classic example of this. Chris Hodges is one of the most respected pastors in America.Rich Birch — Yeah, for sure.Allen Holmes — And he he has pastored one of the fastest growing churches in in America. But there is a reason he has been so fruitful. And the reason is before he ever became a pastor, he didn’t start that church until he was 40.Allen Holmes — And before becoming that pastor, he’d served under two of the best pastors and two of the strongest churches in America. So he was so much more mature than the average church planter when he started. And I’m 53, I don’t think I’m where Chris was at 40 when he started that church.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Allen Holmes — So that was a big advantage in why they’ve been able to be so consistently fruitful for such a long period of time. And we just have to recognize that. And again, that’s why it’s so important that we’re focused on what God is doing in us… Rich Birch — So good. Allen Holmes — …because over time, that’s what produces the best results. It’s just a mature man or woman of God.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Love it. Well, Allen, thank you so much for today’s conversation. This has been a great, it’s been really rich conversation. There’s a lot more we could we could talk about, but I really appreciate you giving us the time today. As we wrap up today’s episode, what any kind of final words you’d give to a leader, as they’re thinking about reflecting on this kind of inner life, leading themselves, you know, trying to align who they are outside with who they are inside. Help us Help us with the kind of final word as we kind of wrap up today’s call.Allen Holmes — Yeah, you know, I was reading a book recently, and and this quote, I’ve just been meditating on it the last couple of weeks, and it the quote is, God loves us as we are, not as we should be, for none of us are as we should be.Rich Birch — It’s good. Oh wow that's good.Allen Holmes — And I say that just to say I think so many pastors are trying so hard like the older brother in the prodigal story. They’re trying so hard to work for God and to prove something. And I just think we got to begin with falling in love with him and trust he’s better at producing than we are. And if we just fall in love with Jesus and allow him to make us more like that father, his kids will come running home.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Allen Holmes — because they’re looking for fathers. They’re they’re looking for that place of grace and life and hope. And so that characterizes who we are in our soul. And people are just so attracted to that. So I would just say to all the pastors and leaders listening, God is crazy about you. You can’t do anything about that. You don’t have to earn it and none of us deserve it. And if we can learn to really receive that and fall in love with Jesus again, it just changes everything.Rich Birch — So good. Well, sir, I appreciate you being on today’s episode. If people want, if we want to send people online somewhere to track with you or with definition, where do we want to send them so they they could connect with you?Allen Holmes — Yeah, they can just Google Definition Church. And I do have a website. There’s not much on it yet. There’s probably not anything there that’s going to help them. But I need to do a better job of developing some content and getting it out there. But the best place to look would be just to go to our website. There are some resources there for churches.Rich Birch — That’s great.Allen Holmes — And of course, you know, we’d love to hear from them. And we really appreciate you just letting us, inviting us to be on the show today and to get to encourage leaders is such a such a privilege.Rich Birch — No, I appreciate you. I just want to honor you. You know, publicly. We reach out to churches like this, frankly, because you end up on the fastest growing church list. And we’re like, hey, what’s God using? And I love where this conversation went today. I think super helpful for people. So thanks so much, Allen. Appreciate being on today.Allen Holmes — Thanks, Rich. Have a great day.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Jeff Beachum and Curt Banter from Portable Church Industries (PCI), a company that has helped more than 4,000 churches launch, expand, and thrive in portable environments over the past 25+ years. PCI specializes in helping churches create high-quality worship, kids, and guest experiences in rented or temporary venues—without sacrificing excellence, volunteer health, or long-term strategy. Is your church growing and starting to feel the pressure of limited space? Are you wrestling with what comes next when your building is full but a permanent solution feels years away? Curt and Jeff share how portable solutions can help churches keep momentum, reach more people, and make wise long-term decisions—without rushing into costly permanent buildings too soon. Recognizing the capacity tipping point. // When churches reach 70–80% capacity, leaders begin to feel pressure everywhere—parking, kids' environments, hallways, volunteer fatigue, and seat availability. At that point, growth doesn't slow because of lack of vision; it slows because of physical constraints. Leaders often start “chasing capacity,” stacking services or squeezing rooms, but those solutions eventually hit a wall. The real question becomes how to keep momentum going without rushing into a long-term decision that may limit future flexibility. Why waiting too long can stall growth. // Waiting to see what happens with growth can quietly kill momentum. When guests can't find seats or families feel crowded, people stop inviting friends—even if the preaching and worship are strong. While overflow rooms may solve logistics, they rarely create the same invitational energy. Churches must respond to growth with courage, believing that God is at work and making room for what He's doing. Portable as a strategic bridge, not a shortcut. // One of the biggest misconceptions is that portability is a cheap or temporary compromise. In reality, portability often serves as a strategic incubation phase—a way to grow now while preparing for long-term solutions later. Portable environments allow churches to launch new locations in months instead of years, often at 3–7% of the cost of permanent construction. Why permanence shouldn't be your first move. // Permanent buildings come with long timelines, heavy capital costs, and irreversible decisions. By contrast, portable systems allow churches to test locations, leadership capacity, volunteer systems, and community engagement before committing to bricks and mortar. In many cases, churches reuse or retool their portable systems for future campuses, making portability a repeatable growth engine rather than a one-time solution. Designed for volunteers, not professionals. // PCI systems are designed around the reality that most churches rely on volunteers—not production experts. Systems are engineered so everything has a place, setup is repeatable, and volunteers of all ages can succeed. Portability often attracts a unique group of volunteers—people who may not serve in traditional roles but find purpose in setup, teardown, logistics, and behind-the-scenes leadership. Over time, these teams become deeply connected and highly committed. Experience and kids environments matter. // Portable doesn't mean second-rate. In fact, kids' environments are often more important than the worship space. Parents cannot fully engage in worship if they feel uneasy about where their children are. PCI's design process balances worship, kids, guest flow, safety, and branding to ensure the entire experience reflects the church's values—not just what happens on stage. Custom systems, not off-the-shelf kits. // PCI's consultative approach begins with listening. Each system is custom-designed based on the church's identity, volunteer capacity, budget, and long-term vision. There is no “stock solution.” From sound systems to kids check-in to trailer layouts, every detail is engineered to support the church's unique mission and growth trajectory. A first step for leaders. // For leaders feeling capacity pressure, start with a conversation—not a commitment. Learning what options exist now prepares churches to act decisively later. The goal is not to rush, but to be ready when growth demands action. Speak directly with Jeff Beachum and discover how Portable Church can help with your unique situation by scheduling a conversation at portablechurch.com/jeff. Learn more about Portable Church Industries and see samples of their work at portablechurch.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: SermonDone Hey friends, Sunday is coming… is your Sermon Done?Pastor, you don't need more pressure—you need support. That's why you need to check out SermonDone—the premium AI assistant built exclusivelyfor pastors. SermonDone helps you handle the heavy lifting: deep sermon research, series planning, and even a theologically aligned first draft—in your voice—because it actually trains on up to 15 of your past sermons. But it doesn't stop there. With just a click, you can instantly turn your message into small group guides, discussion questions, and even kids curriculum. It's like adding a research assistant, a writing partner, and a discipleship team—all in one. Try it free for 5 days. Head over to www.SermonDone.com and use promo code Rich20 for 20% off today! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Super glad that you’ve decided to tune in today and you are going to be rewarded for that. We’ve got a really important conversation, I know for many churches that are listening in, particularly if your church is growing and you’re thinking about the future and you see some constraints around you, we wanna help release some of those constraints today. Rich Birch — And I’ve asked good friends, Curt Banter and Jeff Beachum from Portable Church Industries to come and be on the on the call with us today, because they’ve got some stuff that I know can help so many of us. If you do not know Portable Church, they help churches thrive in portable venues. For more than 25 years, Portable Church has helped literally thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fill that fit each budget, vision, and venue. They really are amazing people. And I’m so glad to have you on the show today, Curt and Jeff. Welcome. So glad you’re here.Curt Banter — Great to be here.Jeffrey Beachum — Glad to be here.Rich Birch — Why don’t we start with Curt? Tell us the kind of portable church, you know, summary. You bump into someone and you they yeah they ask you where you work and you’re like, I’m CEO of Portable Church. What what is that?Curt Banter — Yes, yes. That’s a popular airport question. That is a very, what is that exactly? And I always…Rich Birch — Right. Is that on wheels or something? What is it like, you know.Curt Banter — Exactly. I always tell people like, well, we build portable systems to help churches function in kind of rented spaces is, you know, the deal. And it’s production, it’s kids, it’s lobby, it’s the whole thing. It’s it’s the experience on a Sunday morning in a rented venue.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. And Jeff, give us a sense of the scope of both the services and kind of solutions that PCI provides. Like when you say you help that, what does that, what does that mean? Is this just like a bunch of ideas or what what do you actually do?Jeffrey Beachum — So Portable Church provides absolutely everything that a church needs in order to do church the way they do at their home campus, except we don’t provide the pastor, and the people and the place. But, I mean, we do everything else from, like Curt said, production, everything you need to do children’s environments, everything you need to get people on the campus with wayfinding, greeting them, coffee, right down, if we don’t recommend it, but right down to the communion wafer and the baby diaper. We can do it all.Rich Birch — Nice. Right. Yeah, it’s incredible. Well, today we want to frame the conversation for churches that are listening in that are particularly growing and are thinking about the future and maybe are coming up against some capacity issues. Jeff, when a church starts to approach, say, let’s picture a church, maybe they’re approaching 70, 80% of their weekend capacity. What kind of questions do you hear those leaders wrestling with? What are they thinking about, as they’re thinking about, hmm, what do we do next?Jeffrey Beachum — Well, luckily I’ve run into some ah amazing executive leaders that carry the vision and the execution of a church. And those are usually the two primary people or positions. And there might be multiple people involved in it. But those are the two positions that really are looking in their crystal ball and trying to say, all right, based on The seats we’re filling, the parking lot the way it is, the corridors that are jammed, the children’s ministry, how high a pitch our our volunteers are screaming. We need to be thinking down the road about what are the solutions. And those those people typically, those good leaders are asking questions about, all right, what can we do onsite?Jeffrey Beachum — And eventually, if this keeps going, and we’d love the momentum to keep going, what are some off-site solutions? And so that’s what we like to help take leaders through is even if they don’t use it, the more they know, the better they’re going to be.Rich Birch — And what, when you think of the questions that they’re wrestling about kind of the onsite offsite question, what would be some of those things that, why would they be at that venture? Like what, what is it about, you know, these, this kind of threshold of 70, 80% that starts pushing them to be like, Ooh, maybe it’s like, what are the pain points that they start feeling that are like, okay, that we’ve got to start thinking about something, you know, different down the road.Jeffrey Beachum — Well, this we do this thing, I like to call it chasing capacity, because once a church opens its doors, and if they’re blessed by God and they’re doing all the things that they should be doing, they will forever be looking for that elusive extra seat so that people can hear the gospel. Rich Birch — Right.Jeffrey Beachum — Well, when they get into that position, um they they immediately begin to think, we only have so many seats. It’s a finite number and we’re growing. So how how do we get more? And on-site solutions might include stacking services, adding another third, fourth service. It could mean expanding the footprint of the whole building that you’re in. It could be moving from a smaller room to a bigger room. It could be a variety of solutions on-site to help all those situations. And and there’s a lot to consider when it comes to children’s space, worship space, getting people in and out between services and parking and all of those things.Jeffrey Beachum — Eventually, someone has to be looking at what the offsite locations might be. And and to be honest with you, that is a finite thing. There’s only you can find a green piece of grass and and build a brand new building, which takes a lot of money, a lot of time. There’s commercial properties that you can go into now and build them out, which is always fun and exciting and good good solutions. Mergers is popping up and then portability. Those really are the only four options that are out there for a church to consider going off-site for another site or to launch a new plant.Rich Birch — Cool. So Curt, from when we think about, again, this church, they’re, you know, they’re reaching 70, 80% capacity. They got full everywhere. Like and they look around and it’s like not and enough seats, not enough kids space, not enough parking. From a design and systems perspective, kind of the running side, what often do you think that we miss at that moment in a church life? Like questions we’re not asking or maybe things we misunderstand about that?Rich Birch — Because you guys see this all the time. These are the people you work with all day long. Curt Banter — Yeah. Rich Birch — What are the things that we maybe misunderstood?Curt Banter — Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of people are trying to, they don’t want to lose momentum. They don’t want to lose people. They they start, especially I think people kind of a knee jerk sometimes that it’s like, oh you know, people to come in the door. I can’t find a place to sit. They’re going to, you know, they’re to, people are going split.Curt Banter — And so they’re really nervous about that. So people will tend to do the things that are maybe more black and white and make choices that feel concrete. Like I could build a thing or I could add a service or I could do different things that will cost money and maybe not as much in terms of personnel. But I think sometimes the the tricky part is is that the strategy is really key because what you’re building now is going to lay the foundation for so many other steps down the road.Curt Banter — So it is important to really kind of step back for a minute and make some choices about you know what that means for your staff, what that means for long-term capital spending or whatever it may be before you kind of just leap into those decisions. And then you’re stuck with things that maybe don’t grow so well, or, um, are just bandaid solutions.Rich Birch — Yeah, trying to make the long term. That’s hard in the middle of the chaos of it to step back and say, hey, what what is the best decision here?Curt Banter — It is, it’s really hard.Rich Birch — Even though I’ve got, you know, I’ve got problems right now. What’s the best decision for us to make it this for this next step? Jeff, what happens if we’re in this again, thinking about the same kind of church, if we wait too long, if we, because I’ve actually seen this in churches where I think it’s like it’s like we don’t have faith that what’s happening now is going to continue. And we think, well, maybe maybe next fall, all these people won’t come back. Now, we would never say that. And then we wait and we hesitate for a year or two. What’s some of the risk there that we should be thinking about?Jeffrey Beachum — Well, it it is a scary thing to see God moving and and being amazed at what’s happening in front of you, and and really taking that and getting a gut gut feeling, the right gut feeling to say, God is doing something here and we just need to be able to provide ways for him to keep filling seats.Jeffrey Beachum — And so momentum is very, a tricky thing and you need to be able to keep the momentum going, keep people encouraged. And, and if you don’t, I’ll just share one story. Um, I was at a church. I’ll just tell you my church. I was at my church. I love my church. It’s a great church and got there at Easter time, got there early cause we knew better. And I, I’m old, so I went out to the bathroom and I came back in, and as I was coming back in the doors were closed and there was a sign there that struck me big time and it said: no more seats in the sanctuary. And it pointed to another place where they could go. Well, nobody wants to sit in the second space, no matter what it looks like, and that no more seats available. What if that was the day, you know?Jeffrey Beachum — And so momentum, you need to be able to keep it going. It’s tenuous and you can hit speed bumps with some of the things that you try to do, but you you really need to take courage in what God is doing and what the skill set that he’s provided for the executive leaders to make these decisions and say, we really believe that God is asking us to do this and make plans for that next thing, whether it’s the on-site solution or the off-site solution.Jeffrey Beachum — But if nobody is thinking about it and nobody is ready to make those decisions, that’s where you hit a wall and you stop growing. And in my mind, I think once you’ve let people know that that’s not important enough to keep seats open so that more people can come in, I think that has a negative twist to the momentum piece.Rich Birch — Oh, for sure. Yeah. And there’s, there’s, you know, people won’t invite if there’s not empty seats and there’s, you know, there’s all kinds of interesting, you know, you know, correlations there for sure. So again, thinking about the same church, actually literally earlier today, I was talking to a church, there are three services on a Sunday morning, adding a fourth. And I was asking the XP, how’s it going? And he said, well, we had our, they have like their main parking lot and then they have like the grass parking lot. They’re part of the country country where you can do the grass parking lot. And he’s like, our grass parking lot this last weekend, we’re recording this in early January, was full. And he’s like, we did not anticipate that. And he’s like, I know I’m at least four years away from a building program. I’m not sure, you know, what, what to do. And I thought it was kind of funny that I’m talking with you guys today as well.Rich Birch — So Curt, when you think when, and so this, this guy was a little freaked out because he’s like, man, we got years before we can think about, and he’s thinking permanent building. So when churches are thinking about expanding, many of us, we jump right to permanence. Hey, how long is it going to take? You know, if you talk to our friends on that side, there’ll be three years to, you know, and lots of money.Rich Birch — What have you learned about the danger of kind of skipping this, maybe some sort of interim in between step? Talk us through, you know, why maybe permanence isn’t, shouldn’t be our first step when we’re thinking about this.Curt Banter — Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, and I often tell people, I like, I love the permanent space. I got no problem with that. But if the momentum is really flying and things are going fast, that that is that is a big chunk of why we exist. I mean, we can build a design. You know, you can, it’s, it’s if you you need to find a location. You need to figure out your team. There’s a lot of steps that need to happen in here, regardless of whether you’re going to be building a building or doing a portable church or whatever it may be. Curt Banter — And so this is a, it’s a great time to kind of figure out what the next steps are. And it really is, it’s an opportunity to, to trial things. And like I say, for us, the big deal is is, you know, instead of that four year window, that kind of thing, I was just talking to somebody yesterday and they said, well, you know, how many, how many months would it take? And I said, well, if if we’re talking in months, we’re in good shape. Because sometimes people show up and they’re like, Hey, we need to do something in 10, 12 weeks. And I’m like, okay, we could probably do that. You know?Rich Birch — Right. We can hustle.Curt Banter — Yeah, I mean, and that’s that’s pretty low risk. Like if you can get get something off the ground in 10 or 12 weeks, you know, that… Rich Birch — Right. Curt Banter — …that that gives you opportunity to really take advantage of that and not have to freak out about what my next step is and figure out how am I going to excavate or get a architect involved or, you know, whatever permitting all these things, which, you know, yeah, you’ll get to that. But we don’t have to really work through a lot of those issues to get something launched fairly quick.Jeffrey Beachum — If if I could… Rich Birch — Jump in – yeah, absolutely. Jeffrey Beachum — …we, we recently did a case study of a church down in Florida and they, it’s an amazing church in itself, but they went to a campus and thinking they were only going to have to be there for a couple of years because they had a property across the street. And what happened in that campus was amazing and God blessed them. Jeffrey Beachum — And After they ended up, instead of being there two years, they ended up being there four years. As they were getting into their fourth year, we said, you know what, we need to capture this because this is exciting stuff that they could do. They had 6,000 people on a high school campus on an Easter Sunday…Rich Birch — That’s crazy. Jeffrey Beachum — …which is wacko in my mind. Rich Birch — Sure.Jeffrey Beachum — But we went down to capture it. And the theme that kept coming out of the volunteers and the leaders that we interviewed was, why would we have waited? Why would we have put this off for four years? Look what happened in the four years that we were in this environment. And now we get to walk across the street in a few months and fill a brand new building. And they did. They walked across and they added a third service immediately. And now just six months later, they’re up to five services. So that I like to call it an incubation time… Rich Birch — Right. Jeffrey Beachum — …in portability where they can grow and they can test their mettle. They can test their leadership. They can let the community know here’s what we do and here’s who we are. There’s a lot of great benefits to being portable first.Rich Birch — Okay, sticking with you, Jeff, and and with that idea, this frame of like, a hey, we’re going to, you know, maybe like you’re saying test or take the first step towards a long term plan that’s portable. I’m sure you’ve had a lot of those conversations with churches over the years that have done that.Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.Rich Birch — I’m sure some of them were like, maybe hesitant at the beginning, and then they do it. And then there’s learnings that come back. They they discover, oh wow, this this was different, better. Here were some of the advantages of going portable first. What would be some of those? Rich Birch — I hear the idea of like, in that church’s example of like, hey, we actually were able to start reaching people rather than waiting for four or five years for a building and then start doing that. We actually start to do that now. That’s a great benefit. Any other, that kind of thing that comes back that people are surprised they didn’t see on the, on the, on the outset.Jeffrey Beachum — Well, I think people are surprised when they go portable, at least in our experience with portable church, we we see churches are able to bolster their volunteer base. Normally you get into experiences like that and volunteers, you know, they they they do it for a while and then they say, I’m out. But in our case, it’s intuitive enough and exciting enough, and they see the results that the volunteers usually grow in that case.Jeffrey Beachum — Another great example purpose for going portable first would be to become a part of the community that you’re targeting for that that next facility that’s going to be permanent. If the community sees that you are already a part of them and that you make a difference, they’re going to make it easier for you to get the permissions to get everything constructed in a timely basis. They’re not going to get in the way because they see the value of having you already in the community.Jeffrey Beachum — And then there’s always, you know, the the the end result is that when people are hurting and you go into a new community and you answer a need and they they get to go to a place that they’re familiar with, the school, the YMCA, movie theater, whatever that is, in a very comfortable setting that they’re already familiar with and learn about Jesus and have hope restored. So there’s just a few, but there’s a lot of reasons to go portable first.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.Rich Birch — I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this. In fact, I’m pretty sure I haven’t. So the church I’m at now, next year, 2027, will be a 20-year anniversary. And although I’m not on staff anymore, I do this full-time. I’m still a part of the church. I love it. And you know they have like the organizational values. And we we had one of our campuses was portable for 17 years using a Portable Church Industries system. I know you know that, Jeff. Jeffrey Beachum — Yeah.Rich Birch — And when we, I was like emotional when we were putting those cases away and like unpacking them. It was like, oh my word, like this was like a big deal. And actually one of the the staff team’s values, I just saw this yesterday, I was in the office, is we push cases. And, you know, they they internally, even though they’re not portable anymore, we push cases, this idea of like, hey, we’re all in. And it’s like this thing they kind of tell each other. And I actually think friends like I’m I try I’m trying to be like the unbiased, like, oh, I’m just interviewing these guys. But like, I love Portable Church. I love what they’re up to. I love how you help churches.Rich Birch — And I think your systems, the actual physical systems that you make are like the biggest competitor to you because I bump into them all the time. You know, a decade later, 15 years later, this stuff is still rolling out there. So, Curt, when you design a system where, you know, let’s say we’re we’re headlong in. We’ve said we’re going to do this. We’re going to we’re going to go portable. What do you prioritize? Is it experience, efficiency, volunteer experience, future growth? Talk us through how that kind of the the framework for how your team thinks through the actual design of these things, because it’s it feels like magic to me that, you know, it all comes together. It’s incredible.Curt Banter — Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it’s it’s funny. All those things are important. And I think a lot of what you have to do is when we go when we go and meet with a church, we talk through all that stuff. You walk in the building and you get a sense of, okay, what’s your identity? What, you know, how does it feel? What does what does the environment look like? What’s your auditorium experience? What’s what’s your kids? You know, what kind of security do you want? There’s just all these environmental questions that we’re trying to figure out.Curt Banter — And obviously budget plays a part in it as well, but it’s sort of a balancing act. You’ve got to sort of gather all the information in terms of who they are, what what are they trying to achieve, what’s their timeline, you know, and then you’re kind of baking all that into one big pie and trying to figure out how to you know, balance it all together.Curt Banter — But yeah, it’s it’s different. And it’s funny, I was I tell people, I’ve told Jeff this story, is like, when we sit down with a church, I always tell people, like, if there’s 10 things that are important, don’t assume that I know what they are, because the 10 things that are really important to this church are not the 10 things that may be important to you. Rich Birch — That’s so true.Curt Banter — And every single system has to be, we really base it around what is the the core values of that team, that church.Rich Birch — And how, reveal what that looks like a little bit for people folks. Cause I do think this is, this might be, this isn’t like a pull it off the shelf kind of thing.Curt Banter — No.Rich Birch — You’re building a custom system for people. What does that kind of consulting process look like? How do you, how does that actually, what’s actually look like, Curt?Curt Banter — Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So a lot of times we’ll we’ll set up a consultation, we’ll go in and it’s a it’s a full day of discovery, right? So it’s a lot of meetings with, it could be the executive pastor, we’re meeting with the production team, we’re meeting with the kids people, everybody, people that are making coffee, literally, you know, every part and piece of it.Curt Banter — And it’s a lot of just listening. It’s it’s a lot of me writing notes and figuring out what’s important to people. And yeah, we’re also talking about sound boards and PAs and you know lighting systems and all that kind of stuff. But it’s it’s tons and tons of gathering and information. Because yeah there’s there’s not there’s really nothing about the system that’s stock. Every single part and piece of it is customized for every client from some of our most budget systems to systems that are gigantic with lots of trailers and and lots going on, so. But yeah, it’s that data, that customization for each client is a gigantic part of what makes us, us.Rich Birch — Yeah. And I’ve said to folks who have used you when I knew they were you know coming up to a consultation, I’m like, just just mirroring the same thing you’re saying, just tell them everything. Like don’t like don’t hold back and you know and and talk through it all ah and be really clear.Curt Banter — Yeah.Rich Birch — Sometimes people come back and the system’s like, well, that’s maybe not what we were hoping it would be. Maybe everyone has like, what is it? Platinum Dreams and you know they have a smaller budget or whatever.Curt Banter — Oh, yeah, yeah.Rich Birch — But but but that’s okay.Rich Birch — That’s a part of your job is to try to help them right size it and and all that. Jeff, kind of on the brand consistency. Oh, sorry. Jump in. You were going to say something there. Yep.Jeffrey Beachum — I was just going to follow up with what Curt said, because I’ve attended with Curt a number of the consultations, and just walk away amazed at the value of just being being able to have Curt sit in a room with the leaders and how it feeds to the leaders really well.Jeffrey Beachum — And so some some significant things that I’ve seen Curt do is help them to understand it. So what kind of a what does your worship feel like? And what kind of sound system do you use? And there are some churches now that I say have the Cadillac of systems and they have the best of everything. And it could be really expensive. And if they’re going to multiply sites, that could get expensive over time. Jeffrey Beachum — And I’ve seen Curt be very gracious about, all right, so you have this top line equipment. If you’re going to do this two or three times, wouldn’t you like to like jump down to a Buick? and And have your people get really comfortable up with a Buick. Because to be honest with you, only the the professionals recognize the difference between a Buick and Cadillac. All of them still have four wheels and a steering wheel.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Jeffrey Beachum — And so he’ll talk about that. And then another key piece is that depending on who’s in the room when Curt does the discovery, he talks about the balance that people really don’t get to the worship space where the high production happens for 7 to 10 minutes. And they pass a lot of things. So there’s a nice balance to the design of the system with the children’s space, which I think is probably as as important or more important than the worship space, because no parent wants to go in and be have misgivings about what the space looks like and what’s going to happen to the child that they’re going to abandon into the care of these people and then walk across the street and the pastor think for one minute he has their attention enough to to preach the most important hour or 20 minutes of of their life…Rich Birch — Right.Jeffrey Beachum — …to change their life. They’re thinking about what the heck did I just do to my kids? Rich Birch — Right.Jeffrey Beachum — So I’ve seen Curt very graciously help them balance everything out and say, this is how it is important. And it’s important that we we get it into a system so that it can be done with volunteers quickly and they can have success every single time, every single week. Rich Birch — Love it. Jeffrey Beachum — And they can be excited and feel they’re as invested in the message that of the gospel as the pastor is.Rich Birch — Well, let’s double click on that with you, Curt. You know, I think there’s a lot of executive pastors listening in today and, and I have had this experience as an executive pastor. I’m like talking to some tech person and they’re like, we need the—using Jeff’s thing—we need the Cadillac. Like, you know, the gospel will not go forth without, you know, the Cadillac. And and and I look at all this and I’m like, it’s numbers and letters on a page. And how do I understand all that?Rich Birch — How do you help leadership teams really not either over invest or under invest, particularly on the technology side? Because that side, you know, a kids panel, you know, that stuff, it feels like, okay, that’s pretty consistent. But this area feels like, man, we can, it’s like sky’s the limit. So how how do you help churches on that piece particularly?Curt Banter — Yeah, I mean I mean, one of the first things I almost always do is I’ll ask people, to say, are you okay, so do we do you have experts coming to run this, or do you have staff coming to run this, or do you have volunteers running this?Rich Birch — Yes.Curt Banter — Because those are two very different things… Rich Birch — Yes. Curt Banter — …and if you’ve got volunteers coming, which a great majority of our churches do, then you’ve got to think about who you’re designing this for, right?Rich Birch — Yep.Curt Banter — And that is a problem because a lot of production directors are like, this is what I want. I’m like, are are you going to run it? Because if you’re not going to be there, it doesn’t really matter that much, you know. So a lot of times we’re really trying. I mean, sometimes i hate to be the wet blanket, but sometimes I think, and i can i can I can speak the language. I know what all the letters and everything mean. Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. Curt Banter — But sometimes I’m trying to back them off a little bit to say, look, let’s build a system that’s repeatable. Let’s build a system that anybody… Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so true. Curt Banter — …maybe not anybody, but certainly your volunteers, somebody who’s equipped to do it, can do that, set it up in a reasonable amount of time. And and and every week they’re not having to try to troubleshoot it and figure it out and because it’s so complex.Curt Banter — And yeah, that that may be the right system for your main campus. But a lot of times at these portable locations, we’re trying to do something that’s fast, efficient, volunteer friendly. that’s That’s really key. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s a critical piece.Curt Banter — So we’re I’m constantly bringing that kind conversation back around to, okay, that’s great. There’s a trade-off in time. There’s a trade-off in expertise. Do we want to do that, you know? And sometimes we say, yeah, that one, we we do want to do it, but maybe we don’t do it over here. there’s you know So it’s always a balancing act there a little bit.Rich Birch — Yeah, that that to me, that’s a that’s a critical piece. I think it’s such a great thing that that you guys offer to help us think through that. And what is the nuance there and and be another like another voice in the room? Because I think sometimes we end up in those conversations with the with the pro or person that wishes they were a pro you know tech person. And there’re it’s like…Rich Birch — It’s like they’re they’re they want like the all the bells and whistles, but at the end of the day, they’re not going to have to solve these problems long term.Curt Banter — Yeah.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Let’s, Jeff, let’s talk about the volunteer piece, particularly. So, man, I’m here in like set up, tear down, rolling stuff, plugging stuff in. You know, we we know that churches live and die on volunteers in every location, but it’s particularly true in in portable environments. How do systems, well thought out systems from the front end help us win with volunteers, you know week in, week out, not from day one, but then continue over the years.Jeffrey Beachum — Oh, well, and actually that’s that’s a part of Curt’s team and production and integration and all of that. the The system that Portable Church uses, if you think about it, the the Portable Church has to have all the same stuff your home church has. It’s just all put into a portable system. So you need all of that. Jeffrey Beachum — And and I’m betting at your home church, you’ve built that up over a series of 5 to 10 years. And here you get it all in one shot. And because that you’re starting out with church and it has to be done well. So you don’t have boomerang volunteers that say, oh, I tried this and I’m going back home. We don’t have that.Jeffrey Beachum — So some of the things that help with that is that they are designed for that repetitive nature where everything goes in the same place in the case. So every case is designed custom for that particular room. And so one group can come in and set everything up and a whole different group can come in and put it away after you’re done with your one, two, three services. And and it all be in the same place because it everything, every piece has a home and within each case. Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. Jeffrey Beachum — And then every case, has a specific place on a trailer because we advocate for trailers and we can explain that later, but everything is weighted out. So we have people that actually weigh each case and where it should go on the trailer so that we’re not breaking some of your volunteers’ hitches, that we’re not having stuff abandoned on the side of the road.Jeffrey Beachum — And so there’s a meticulous design that goes into meeting the needs so that the church can be effective. And allowing the the case system to be productive. And we have people, kids as early as 10 or 12, they think it’s cool to be able to be a part of that.Rich Birch — It’s so true.Jeffrey Beachum — And so they’re from 12 to 80 years old pushing these cases and being helpful in a way that maybe they’re not teachers. Maybe they’re not Sunday school teachers. Maybe they’re not preachers. Maybe they’re not people who welcome you know easily, and they don’t have those skills, but they love pushing the cases and being a part of that.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s true.Curt Banter — Yeah, that’s to to tag onto that.Rich Birch — Yeah.Curt Banter — That’s, I mean, the the teams I’ve been a part of in the past, we’ve, we’ve had groups of volunteers that never would have served in a permanent location.Rich Birch — A hundred percent.Curt Banter — They had no, they had no place there. They had no home there. Guys that pull trucks, people that are on the security team, people that are bringing in food to the green room, whatever it may be. And they, they really do. They find a home there. They find connection there. It’s not just about the serving. It’s also about the community. They’re very much interlinked. Rich Birch — Yeah. 100%.Jeffrey Beachum — And it’s important enough that we we warn churches. So when you go from portable to permanent, you need to find a home for all these amazing volunteers that they can continue to to serve.Rich Birch — Yeah. And we’ve, I was going to echo that. Like I’ve seen that time and again, in campuses have been a part of where we’ve gone from portable to permanent. And even though I’ve seen it, I’m like, there are a group of these volunteers that are like, they’re the backbone of the church. Like the, it’s all theoretical until the roadies show up and set the thing up. Like we’re, we’re theoretically doing church this weekend. And then this group of heroes show up and, you know, make it all happen.Rich Birch — And it is a group typically, it’s not always, but it’s my experience has been, it’s typically a group of guys who they don’t necessarily, they love it, but they don’t necessarily fit in other places. And they get this like foundational role in the church and love getting a little bit sweaty. And it’s the systems are designed so they’re not super hard. Rich Birch — One thing I want to say too, as a friend, like I remember years ago, this is again, probably 20 years ago with Pete, the founder of Portable Church. I was, I was at your location at the production location. And was, I was like waxing eloquently about, man, these cases are incredible. And he like, and you’re going to know what this is. I can’t remember the exact stat, but he he was showing this one case with this door that like flips down and you know he’s like, well, you know, if a certain person of a certain height, if something gets dropped into the bottom of that case, that door is designed so they can lean down and pick it up out of the bottom of that of that case. And he had some stat around like, you know, well you know, like X number of volunteers typically are this.Rich Birch — And I was like the amount of thinking that’s gone into the design is incredible. like And these are not like these just boxes that you’re pushing around there, although they are, they’re thought through, like lots of small things throughout the entire system that always strike me. I’m like, man, that’s just such a great idea, which is you know pretty incredible.Rich Birch — Curt, coming back to kind of an a little bit of an earlier question, I want to, there may be people that are listening in there like, yeah, I strategically get that. Maybe we’re going to spend a little less money. We could do some sort of like portable thing to help us before we go, you know, long-term. But some leaders might hear portable and think cheap, temporary, not great, ineffective, not on brand, all that kind of stuff. Help us think through how portable it really, yeah, how does that, what how how do you respond to that? How do you respond to those kind of potential criticisms?Curt Banter — Yeah. Yeah, I think I was trying to think of, ah you know, what, what causes the cheap thing. And I, I, I hate to say it, but I think sometimes it tends to be a DIY situation. It tends to be something where it’s, it’s that we talked about it earlier, that emergency situation, like I’ve got to figure out a solution.Rich Birch — Right.Curt Banter — And so I think sometimes people that go out and they grab this and they grab that and pull together. And now you’ve got this, you know, And there are churches that we go and work with where we sort of refresh the system or optimize the system.Curt Banter — And a lot of times you’ll see that where it’s just stuff in a trailer. Rich Birch — Right.Curt Banter — I mean, it’s just, they’re in boxes. They’re in, you know, cardboard, seen TVs and cardboard boxes that have been in those cardboard boxes for five, six years, you know, that kind of thing.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.Curt Banter — And I think that’s the, I think that’s sometimes maybe where the cheap comes from. And, and it’s the, the deal with us is, you know, everything’s thought out, right? Everything has a home. Everything has an an an intention in the way that it’s stored, used, trainability in terms of, you know. So, you know, I often say to people like, look, people go and pay lots and lots of money to go see concerts at big venues, right? And that’s all portable. It doesn’t have to be cheap. Those aren’t cheap. It’s really, it’s dependent upon, you know, what is your budget and what is your volunteer base and everything else. It doesn’t need to be cheap. And even at lots of budget levels, it doesn’t look cheap because there’s really a lot of thought that’s put into how it’s used.Curt Banter — So I don’t think, you know, there’s lots of opportunities to make it look great in a portable situation, but But yeah, it has to be, and like you were talking about with Pete, it has to be thought out. It has to be engineered. It has to be put together in a way that’s easy and fast and and looks good and has quality about it.Rich Birch — Well, and this this gets to how many churches you guys have worked with. Like, this is the insane, like, it’s some giant number. Like, it’s I know I said thousands at the front end, but what what is that number, Jeff? What is that? It’s it’s some huge number, right?Jeffrey Beachum — I, I think right now it’s got to be north of like 4000 churches over the last 30 years.Curt Banter — Something like that.Rich Birch — See, this is friends. This is what I’m saying. There are people that are listening in and you’re like, we could just do this on our own. And I’m like, well, why would you do that? Like talk to the people who have, they, although your situation is super unique, they’ve worked with 4,000 other churches in super unique situations and have helped them figure it out. And man, like that’s, you wanna leverage all of that thinking to help you figure out, okay, how are we gonna get this to work at, you know, insert junior high, high school, whatever it is, you know, bowling alley, whatever it is, wherever you’re you’re moving into, that’s that’s great.Jeffrey Beachum — Yep.Rich Birch — Curt, oh, sorry, go ahead, Jeff.Jeffrey Beachum — Well, I was just going to so I would also, when it comes to the value piece, ask how how valuable is it for you to have and to continue the momentum that you have going into your next, your next facility, whatever that is.Jeffrey Beachum — So you’ve got a gap when you finally realize, man, we got to do something and we got do something fast. Portability can be done within three to four months. We can have you on the ground, in your site and probably for an investment of maybe 3 to 5 or 7% of whatever that end expense is going to be, could be invested to keep that momentum going and to make things stronger.Jeffrey Beachum — And so with that gap between we need to land somewhere and landing in a permanent spot, you could have anywhere from a three to five year gap that could be highly productive in a highly professional environment with professional gear run by your volunteers.Jeffrey Beachum — And I don’t know very many, I mean, there are some guys that do DIY and do it well, but I don’t know very many that take into consideration all those engineering feats… Rich Birch — Right. Jeffrey Beachum — …that originally were thought up 30 years ago and Curt’s team continues now. Rich Birch — Right. Jeffrey Beachum — They produce a system that is amazing and helpful. And most of our the churches that we work with, they they come back. In fact, Liberty Live, we just did another interview with Liberty Live, and they were gushing about how much we’ve helped them with several sites. And it’s wonderful to hear that they’re effective because of us putting you know a carpet on wood and putting the right stuff in the right places and helping them to share the gospel.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s incredible. That’s so good. Yeah, and i love that. You may not like what I’m able to say, but I’ve said this behind your backs. But, you know, so so many times I’ve said to leaders when they’re thinking about this exact moment, I’m like, okay, so let’s talk about worst case scenario.Rich Birch — Let’s be the like, okay, we we launched this location and this campus and we’re, you know, we’re excited about it. It’s working well. But, you know, we don’t know. You don’t know what’s going to happen there.Rich Birch — Well, the beautiful thing about a portable system is like, let’s give that a run for two or three years. And but best case scenario, four years, like the example you used, four years, we end up moving into some other facility. Well, that’s great. Well, what we do what do we do with this portable system? We take it and put it somewhere else, which I know you’d like us to say, you buy a new system. But but but I say, just take it and you know get them to come back and retrofit it… Jeffrey Beachum — Yes. Rich Birch — …and then go into a new location which you can’t do I don’t know any, and I’ve known multiple churches that have done exactly that play, which is, you know, just, you talk about stewardship. That’s just incredible use of the resources that God’s given you.Rich Birch — It’s amazing stuff. Curt Banter — Yeah, we’re in the process of… Rich Birch — Well, as we’re coming to land here, sorry, go ahead. Curt Banter — …to say we’re in the process of talking to several churches right at the moment that are that are retooling systems that they’ve had in play for 5 to 10 years. Rich Birch — Right. Curt Banter — And it’s exactly it’s an engine, right? Rich Birch — Yes.Curt Banter — They use it for growth. They retool it and they put it back out there to do the next one. And that’s part of the plan. It’s not a happenstance. They they that is the plan, like is to always keep pushing that thing forward.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, absolutely. And that DUI thing, DUI, that’s different. DUI, do it yourself, DIY. That’s a Freudian slip. The that happens in churches all the time.Rich Birch — You know, a friend of mine’s church, they were, you know, I was like, you really should be using Portable Church. And they didn’t use Portable Church and they came to their opening weekend and a key piece of gear did not fit through the door. Jeff knows the church I’m talking of.Rich Birch — And they, you know, I was, you know, the leader that I know is like a little bit frustrated with, you know, with all that. And I happened to see pictures of their launch and I’m like, oh, you got it through the door. And they’re like, no, we did not get it through the door. We ended up spending more money and figured out like an older thing or something and retrofitted. And I’m like, gosh, like, you would have saved all that hassle just talking to someone who’s gone ahead and figured out how do you fit all this into a box and get it through a door. Rich Birch — As we’re coming to land, maybe a couple last ah questions, maybe one for you, Jeff. If if there’s a leader that’s in this, they’re they’re facing the capacity pressure right now, what’s kind of one step they should take in this next 90 days? Where should they go next? and then I got one last question for you, Curt, as we wrap up.Jeffrey Beachum — So the next 90 days, I would say, certainly you’re not going to land in a new location in the next 90 days. But what you can do is you can take a look in your crystal ball and say, I think something could be in our future and begin to know what you don’t know.Rich Birch — Good.Jeffrey Beachum — And I would say there’s a lot about going portable, the benefits of portability, some of the processes involved that we would love to just tell you about and inform you about so that 12, 18, 24, even 36 months down the road, you you have that knowledge and you say, all right, I’ve got this one in my pocket. I know I can do this. And we would be here to help you. Jeffrey Beachum — So I would say in the next 90 days, give us a call and talk to us and say, hey, I don’t know when we’re going to do this, but I kind of feel that we’re going to have to. Can you help me understand and learn about it? Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeffrey Beachum — I guess that’s the best step.Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s fantastic. You can go to your website, right? Portablechurch.com/Jeff, I think is the answer. Jeffrey Beachum — Yes.Rich Birch — If you want to actually talk with you, which is amazing. I’ve so i’ve told people that I’m like, Jeff will get on the phone and talk to you. Like he’s a real live human. Jeffrey Beachum — Forever.Rich Birch — And at the end of it, it’s not like, you know, there’s a, you know, a credit card, you’re buying a new system. That’s not what it is. It’s like, Hey, we want to help you understand early, get in the process. You cannot start the conversation too early. You know, I appreciated Curt saying like, hey, I talked to this leader and they said maybe 10, 12 weeks from now I need something done.Rich Birch — Don’t do that. Like start early. Like if you’re as and they say they’ll do that. That’s fine. That’s that’s Portable Church. They’ll actually help you. But from my end as an operator, I’m like, even if you’re inkling thinking like early in the we might be doing something down the road. I’m not even sure if this is an option. Call Jeff – he’d be happy to help you. Rich Birch — Curt, for you, senior leader of the organization – you know, Portable Church is doing a great job. 4,000, we’re looking forward to that when you click over 5,000 churches. What would you say to a leader that’s listening in today as they’re thinking about expansion, maybe a senior leader, like, you know, a lead pastor, that sort of thing? What kind of words of advice or wisdom would you give them as we wrap up today’s episode?Curt Banter — Yeah. It’s funny, like as, as people are growing and they’re expanding, we’ve talked about this a few times, but think about, you’ve poured everything you got into your, especially if you’re in one location, you’ve poured everything you got into that one location. All of you’ve got your special sauce and all of those people that are really talented at what they do. And now you’re like, we need to grow. And maybe that’s another location. And okay, how how are we going to do that?Curt Banter — And I think a lot of people are really commonly saying, okay, we’re going to stretch that base over two. And a lot of times you can sort of get away with that a little bit. But what tell you what you go to three or even as you really fully expand into two, you’re going to feeling it. And so the the thing I would always say is, again, think about your long-term strategy. Rich Birch — That’s good.Curt Banter — Think about what you’re going to need in terms of your team, in terms of repetition and process. And it just it’s going to serve you so well in the long run to be thinking about how the people play into this and how you’re going reproduce it versus just you know getting through this moment.Rich Birch — That’s so good. Well, appreciate you guys being on today. Again, if you want more information on Portable Church, you can just drop by portablechurch.com. There’s a ton of information on there, lots of helpful resources and all that.Rich Birch — And if you want to talk to Jeff specifically, just go to portablechurch.com/Jeff. He would love to jump on a call with you and talk you through whatever you know kind of issues, or even if it’s just like, hey, we’re kind of thinking about this.Rich Birch — What questions should we be asking? He would love to jump on a call with you. So thanks so much, gentlemen. I appreciate you being here today.Curt Banter — It’s good to be here.Jeffrey Beachum — Thanks. Appreciate it Rich.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're talking with Jeremy Baker, Lead Pastor of Elevate Life Church in Connecticut. In just over three years, Elevate Life has grown from 70 people to more than 2,000 weekly attendees, becoming one of the fastest-growing churches in the country—especially remarkable in a region widely known as spiritually resistant and unchurched. Jeremy shares the honest, behind-the-scenes story of how God has moved, and what his team has learned about loving people well, building invite culture, and helping people take meaningful steps in their spiritual journey. Is explosive growth possible in spiritually dry regions? How do churches keep the focus on people instead of preferences as momentum builds? Jeremy offers a refreshing reminder that growth is less about formulas and more about faithfulness. Humble beginnings and a clear calling. // Jeremy and his wife left a comfortable ministry role at a large church in Dallas after sensing God's call to the Northeast—one of the least churched regions in North America. With no church-planting playbook and their personal savings on the line, they launched Elevate Life with high expectations and a large marketing push. When only 70 people showed up on launch day, disappointment could have ended the story. Instead, it became the starting point. Jeremy describes the journey as a “God deal” from the beginning—marked by prayer, obedience, and a willingness to go after people rather than polish programs. Loving people from the street to the seat. // One of Elevate Life's defining values is making people feel seen, heard, and celebrated. Jeremy believes every person walks in carrying an invisible sign that says, “See me.” That belief shapes their entire guest experience. From banner-waving parking lot teams to outdoor tents for first-time guests (even in winter), the church treats arrival as sacred ground. Volunteers walk guests through the building, help with kids check-in, offer tours, and even escort people to their seats. The intentional warmth sends a clear message: you matter here. Taking people where they are. // With nearly 4,000 first-time guests in a single year, Elevate Life assumes nothing about biblical knowledge or spiritual maturity. Rather than pushing people toward instant maturity, the church focuses on meeting people where they are. Grow Track, life groups, and clear next steps help people move forward at a sustainable pace. Jeremy warns that churches often forget how far they've traveled spiritually—and unintentionally expect newcomers to keep up. Invite culture that never lets up. // Elevate Life's growth hasn't come from direct mail or massive ad budgets. Jeremy says he'll never do mailbox ads again. Instead, growth flows from a relentless invite culture. Every service, hallway conversation, life group, and ministry environment reinforces the same message: Who are you bringing? Invite cards, QR codes, social media ads, and consistent language keep invitation top of mind. Jeremy believes repetition—not creativity—is the secret. Reaching people over protecting preferences. // As the church has doubled in size, Jeremy is vigilant about guarding its mission. Growth brings new pressures—parking shortages, crowded services, limited space—but he resists shifting focus inward. If churches aren’t careful, they’ll trade purpose for preferences,. Elevate Life's mission—making heaven more crowded—keeps the team outwardly focused. Jeremy regularly reminds leaders that people are not problems to solve; they are people to pastor. A challenge for church leaders. // Jeremy closes with a simple encouragement to pastors: love people deeply, steward what God has given you, and don't lose sight of why you started. Churches don't grow because they chase growth—they grow when leaders refuse to give up on people. In regions others have written off spiritually, God is still moving—and often through ordinary leaders who simply refuse to stop caring. To learn more about Elevate Life Church, visit elevatelifect.com or follow them on Instagram @elevatelifect. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. Pumped that you have decided to tune in today. We’ve got a very good conversation. I’m really looking forward to leaning in and learning from this leader and the story that God’s been writing at his church in the last two and a half years.Rich Birch — Elevate Church in Connecticut has grown from 70 people to over 2,000 on a weekly basis. It’s been named one of the fastest growing churches in the country. I love their mission and purpose is really simple: making heaven more crowded. Today we’ve got Jeremy Baker with us. He is the lead pastor. Jeremy, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Jeremy Baker — Thank you so much for having me. So excited. And what a great privilege and honor to be on on live with you today. So thank you.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’m excited that to unpack this story a little bit. It is not normal for a church to grow from 70 to 2000 in any part of the country, but even more so in Connecticut. I can say as a guy who served in New Jersey, I’m Canadian, you know – don’t hold that against against me. Jeremy Baker — Let’s go.Rich Birch — So I understand the spiritual context that you’re in a little bit. But why don’t you unpack the story? Kind of tell us a little bit what’s gone on over these last couple of years. For folks that don’t know, tell us about the kind of spiritual, you know, climate in Connecticut. Talk us through those issues.Jeremy Baker — Yeah, I first of all, it’s a God deal all the way. And I know a lot of people are asking me, hey, give me some handles, what’s some formulas, what’s some how-tos.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Baker — I’m just blown away by what God’s done. And I think it’s really just the heartbeat of God is going after his people and serving the community really well. So we’re in an area, I’m 30 minutes away from Yale University.Rich Birch — Okay.Jeremy Baker — I’m not too far away from New Haven, Connecticut. I’m in in a town about 100,000 people. Rich Birch — Wow.Jeremy Baker — Matter of fact, the building is actually in between two cities. Rich Birch — Okay. Jeremy Baker — The building is divided right down in half. One half being, yeah, it’s crazy. One half being Meriden, one half being a town called Wallingford. And so in those two cities is about 100,000 people. Rich Birch — Okay. Jeremy Baker — So three and a half years ago, I’m working at a big church in Dallas, Texas, mega-world, mega-church, on staff, XP, and the Lord just pressed on our heart, me and my wife that we’re comfortable. We’re we’re living the good life, we’re living the Dallas life, the big Texas life, and there’s more, you know. And nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with the Dallas life, the big life, the Texas life, nothing wrong with big churches – God loves this, the capital “C” church, you know. And so long story short, prayed for about a year, and we said, we’re going to the Northeast. Rich Birch — Wow. Jeremy Baker — This is where my wife is originally from, the Connecticut region, this area, actually called a little town called North Haven. And we’re going to go back up here because there’s a group of people that need the Lord. And, you know, the Northeast, New Jersey, you know, New York, Maine, Vermont, Pennsylvania, these kind of, this region up here in this New England region is ah is an unchurched region. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — There’s great people that are God-fearing people, great good Bible-believing churches, but there’s it’s not known as a Southern, you know, Christianity. Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — Like everybody goes to church in the South, but up here, it’s a little different region. So we came up here. We didn’t know how to plant a church, honestly.Rich Birch — Love it.Jeremy Baker — I’m just giving you all the honest, the the real, real.Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — I wish I could tell you that I wrote the book on it and I know how to do everything perfectly. Rich Birch — Love itJeremy Baker — But i could I could tell you every horror story what not to do, you know? So we we pulled out our life savings and we started a church and we had 70 people on our launch date. Rich Birch — Wow. And we put about $100,000 into our launch date thinking we would have… Rich Birch — Wow. Jeremy Baker — …you know, 800 people, a thousand people are going to show up. We put mailers in everybody’s mailbox. So long story short, we had 70 people. Rich Birch — Wow, wow.Jeremy Baker — And then out of that, we have just been going after our city. Out of that, we have just been reaching people, inviting people to God’s house, serving our community, clean days, outreaches, food ministry, backpack giveaways, Christmas, Thanksgiving. I mean, just every major holiday, we have just attacked our community. And this last week, we had over 2,400 people in attendance.Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Praise God. Jeremy Baker — And and so in three and a half years, it’s just been wild. And there’s so much in that story I could tell you.Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Baker — But that’s kind of been from where we were, planning humble beginnings. God, what do you want to do? And it’s not about the size of a church, as you know, because I know there’s great churches out there that are ministering very well to the size that is in their community, and they’re doing a really good job shepherding people, caring for people.Jeremy Baker — But it’s just, you know, I always believe, God, let me not mess this up. Lord, if I can steward this well, you’ll keep bringing them to me. And so we have a brand new team, new staff. I like to call us the the misfits of Toy Island, if I could use the if i could if i could use the Christmas kind of you know… Rich Birch — Yes. Jeremy Baker — …thought process, you know. We don’t know what we’re doing, but we’re loving people well. We’re serving. We’re discipling to the best of our ability. We’re preaching the full gospel now. I don’t want people to think that we’re not preaching the gospel.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — We’re preaching from Genesis to Revelations, and we’re preaching the whole Bible, the whole council. And but that’s kind of that’s a little bit of kind of like how the beginning happened, but it’s been wild.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.Jeremy Baker — It’s been wild, man.Rich Birch — Yeah. And I know, you know, we know that, well, all of our churches, you know, they they have the impact they do because God chooses to use what we’re doing at the end of the day. It’s got nothing to with us. It’s got everything to do with him. Jeremy Baker — Right. Rich Birch — But he is choosing to use something that you’re you’re doing. He’s clearly blessing something. He’s working through something. When you step back and think about the last couple of years, two or three years, What would be some of the things that you’ve seen him use that are like, hmm, this seems to be a part of the equation of what he’s pulling together.Rich Birch — And that’s not from a like, hey, we want to replicate all this, but it’s like, hey, here’s here’s your story. This is what God seems to be using in your context to reach your people. What would be some of those things that bubble up to your mind?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, great question. I would think the first thing for us is people want to be seen. People in the world that we live in today want to know that someone cares about them, that someone loves them.Jeremy Baker — We like to say it around here. We have little cultural sayings. We see you. We hear you. We celebrate you. We see you, we hear you, we celebrate you. I love what Mary Kay said, the the makeup organization. She had a quote, and if I can quote her right, she said, everybody has an invisible sign around their neck that says, see me. Jeremy Baker — And and I think it’s important. I think it’s real important that we see people the way God sees them. You know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever would believe in him. So the whole thing is about seeing people the way God sees them, not seeing them through their lens of brokenness or through the lens of maybe a divorce or the pain or the regret or the shame. No, we got to see them through the grace and the mercy of God, through through what Jesus wants to do in their life. So we’re just loving people really well from the street, if I could say it like this, because I know it’s been said in church conferences, but from the street to the seat, we’re just loving people really well, you know, how to how to make people feel like they’re the big deal. Rich Birch — Right, right.Jeremy Baker — You know, that God does love them. So that would be probably one thing that I would say would kind of be our bread and butter of just loving people well… Rich Birch — Yes. Jeremy Baker — …helping people find hope, especially in a season like this, you know, holiday season. It’s like, a you know, a lot of people are hopeless and we need to give hope to people. And so that would be a big thing. Jeremy Baker — I say think the second thing I would say is taking people on the spiritual journey where they’re at. You know, I’ve been a ministry for 30 years. My dad’s a pastor. So I’ve been in church for a long time. And I think sometimes, you know, we can as as as church kids, or if I could say it that way, or church people, we are called the shepherd. We’re called to minister. We’re called the guide. But sometimes we want people to be on the road that we’re on. And and they don’t realize… Rich Birch — That’s so true. Jeremy Baker — …we have we have we have been on this journey for a long time. There’s been a lot of going to the mat, dealing with us, God doing a work in us. Like David said in Psalms 51, Lord, create me a clean heart. Help me help me grow, Lord, as a leader, as a mature, you know. Put away childish things. I, you know, I want to grow. So so we’re taking people on their journey. Okay, you’re new to faith, so we need to start you on this road or this path, if I could say, you know. Oh, you’ve been walking with God for three years. Okay, we’ve got to make sure that you know some of the foundations, some of the basics. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Baker — You know I think that’s been some of our greatness of helping people stick, find community, be a part. So those are, I think those are two things. Understanding people need to be seen. And the second one is taking them on a journey of where they’re at, you know?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I love that. The let’s let’s unpack that a little bit. I’d love to start with the loving people well thing – a little bit more detail. Jeremy Baker — Yeah.Rich Birch — When you say that, so what does that mean from the street to the seat? How are you how do you feel like, oh, this is something that Elevate Life’s doing well to love people as they’re coming, as they’re arriving, as they’re a part of what’s going on at the church?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so great. So for me, it’s going to be guest experience. Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — What does it look like when people pull on your parking lot? You know, do we have parking lot – we don’t call them attendants. We call them parking lot banner wavers. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. Love it.Jeremy Baker — They’re waving a banner, a blessing over your car. Now, it’s going to be a little charismatic a little bit. There’s going to be a little bit of a, you know, my background is, you know, is I’m I’m very very energetic, very enthusiastic…Rich Birch — Sure.Jeremy Baker — …passionate as a leader. So I want people to know it’s a big deal that you’re on property today. Rich Birch — Right.Jeremy Baker — It’s a really big deal that you brought your family, that you showed up. You didn’t have to show up. You didn’t have to be here. You could have stayed home. You could have did what you wanted to do, but you gave God some time today. And so what we do is we we we we really pray that as the tires hit the parking lot, that miracles take place in people’s lives.Jeremy Baker — Whatever that miracle might be, miracle of salvation. A miracle of of of a mindset change, a miracle of restoration. So banner wavers in the parking lot, loving on people. Jeremy Baker — We have a team called the Impact Team that’s in the parking lot. They’re what we call our first time guest experience connection moments. So when they when there’s tents outside, of course, even in the winter, we got tents outside with heaters outside. You know, we just got four inches of snow the other day, but they’re still outside.Jeremy Baker — So the commitment from our servant leaders is there. The commitment from our staff is there, just to make people seen and feel loved. So as they’re walking into the property, if they’re a first time guest, our team has been trained how to identify a first time people, even with the amount of people that are coming. And they’ll walk up to them and just say, so glad you’re here.Jeremy Baker — Is this your first time? No, I’ve been here for about a month. OK, do you need anything? How can I serve you? How can we help you? Do you know how to check your kids in? Or, hey, can i can I walk you to your seat? I mean, we literally have a team over 100 plus people that are helping people walk into a building… Rich Birch — Wow.Jeremy Baker — …get a free get a get a cup of coffee, find them to their seat, make them feel loved. If they’re new, hey, let me take you on an experience tour is what we call it, an experience tour. You’re walking into a brand new building. You’ve never been into the building before. You know, lot of churches, it’s all love, but might not have the right signage of communication of where restrooms are, kids check-in nurseries, nursing mother’s room, you know, special needs, whatever. So we have these people that go and walk these people through this building. And, you know, we don’t have a large building. We’re we’re adding on to our building, but we’re about 28,000 square feet.Rich Birch — Okay.Jeremy Baker — And so even in that size, you know, you can get lost in a building that size… Rich Birch — Right, right. Jeremy Baker — …you you know, especially where there’s hallways and doorways you don’t know. And so we’re having people walk through. And then people walk up all the way to their seat.Rich Birch — Wow.Jeremy Baker — And then when they’re in their seat, we got people that are on the host team, which we’d call modern day ushers. We call them host team members. They just walking up to them. Hey, good to see you. How you doing? Good morning before service starts.Rich Birch — I love that. Yes.Jeremy Baker — So we’re creating this we’re creating this interaction culture. Now, if you’re introverted, I’ll be honest with you, it’s going to be hard. It’s going to be hard, man.Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — It’s going to be hard. If you’re more introverted in your personality and your style, you’re going to feel overloaded at a level, you know what I’m saying?Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — So so that that’s some of the feedback we get.Jeremy Baker — Like, hey, I love the church… Rich Birch — It’s a little much. Jeremy Baker — …but I got 18 people talking to me, man, before I even find a seat. And it’s like, I get it, I get it, I get it. But, you know, we just want you to feel seen and feel loved. So that’s part of what we do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s very cool. I love that.Jeremy Baker — Yeah.Rich Birch — Super practical. That’s cool. And then I like this idea of talking to people where they’re at. I think that can be a concern we run into or a it’s like we’re not even aware that in our our churches we’re we’re we’re using language or or we’re assuming everyone’s at a certain place. What does that look like for you at Elevate Life? How are you helping? Because that’s a lot of people in a short period of time to both get to know and then also try to communicate in a way that actually connects with where they’re at. Talk us through what do you mean by that when you say we’re trying to talk to people where they’re at in their spiritual journey?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so if it so if you’re new, let me just give you context. This year alone, in 2025, we’ve had 3,919 first-time guests walk through our doors. Rich Birch — That’s great.Jeremy Baker — This year alone. Rich Birch — Yep. Jeremy Baker — So for us, we know as a new plant, as a new church, we’re going to have to really walk people through this spiritual journey. Some of these people maybe have some form of God, maybe they have been walking with God. Maybe they’ve been out of church since, you know, let’s just talk about pre, know, after or during COVID. Maybe they haven’t been back to God’s house because that’s really real in the Northeast. Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — I mean, some people are just now coming back to church in the Northeast that have not been in church for the last four years. You know, it’s like, oh yeah, I’ve been out of church for about three and a half years and I’m just now getting back into the rhythm of getting back in my faith.Jeremy Baker — So there’s so much I can talk about that. Like how how do we make our services flow? Like I always introduce introduce myself, hey, my name is Jeremy, and I have the privilege to pastor this church, and I just want to say welcome. If if this is your, you know, 52nd welcome this year or if this is your first welcome, I just want to say welcome. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — Because i want I want them to know that we’re real, that we’re authentic, and we want to help them on their spiritual journey. Rich Birch — It’s good.Jeremy Baker — So we offer stuff like, you know, first-time, you know, decision, if you made a first time decision, let’s go, let’s go into, you know, who is Jesus? You know, what does Jesus, you know, want to do in your life? So there’s, there’s, there’s classes, there’s paths that we offer there. Jeremy Baker — Grow track, you know, we have grow track that we offer every month. Hey, hey, won’t we want to teach you a little bit more about faith, who Elevate Life is, what, what our mission is, what our vision is, what, what the values of our church is. And so we walk them through that.Jeremy Baker — And then, and then what we have is we have life groups. And these life groups are from all different walks. Deep dive of Revelation, deep studies of the Old Testament. Or, hey, we’re just going to go through the book of John. We’re just going to start in John 1 and learn what Jesus, you know, who Jesus is. And we’re to start there. Or if you’re more intellectual, we’re going to go a little bit deeper. You know, so we we we we we have these these life groups, we call them, because we’re Elevate Life. So we call them life groups. We want we want these groups to bring life to people.Jeremy Baker — And and so ah so we just we we have people, we encourage them to sign up, to get involved. That’s our conversations always in the hallways. Hey, are you are you serving on a team? Are you in a life group? Here’s here’s why. The goal for me is not just gathering large crowds. The goal for me as as a shepherd, I would just say as ah as as the lead pastor now in this season of my life, is is to help people develop spiritually… Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Yeah, definitely. Jeremy Baker — …to help people find their personal walk with God, not just come and hear a good word. You know, motivating, it’s inspiring, it’s it’s helpful. Yes, it’s practical. I’ve got handles I can live my life by throughout the week. But my my heart is, don’t just take a Sunday and give it to God, but give God every day of your life. Rich Birch — So good.Jeremy Baker — You know, sometimes we just turn the surrender switch on on Sunday, not realizing the surrender switch needs to be on every day of the week.Rich Birch — Amen. So true.Jeremy Baker — So I’ve got to turn that surrender switch on every day. And just like you a natural thought when you turn the light switch on when you’re in the room, you turn it off when you leave the room. Well, a lot of people look at church that way. I’m going to turn my surrender switch on today. It’s Sunday. I’m going to go to God’s house. And then on when they leave Sunday, they leave away the property. They pull away. The surrender switch turns off. And I think that’s where the consumer mindset, especially in the Western part of the country… Rich Birch — Sure. Jeremy Baker — …you know, we have gotten, you know, we’re, we’re inundated with consumerism. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — And so, and so how, do how do we help people really become disciples of of Christ? So the second part of our mission statement is making disciples that follow Jesus. So the goal is making heaven more crowded, but making disciples that follow Jesus.Rich Birch — So good. That’s great. Let’s talk about a bit like up the funnel a little bit, like at the top end, where, how are people learning about Elevate Life? You talked about when you launched, you did a bunch of marketing stuff. Has that continued to happen? Is this just like, you’re really good at Facebook ads? Help me understand. What does that look like? How, why is the church growing?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, great question. I personally, I will never do an ad in a mailbox again. That was $25,000 that I think one person showed up, and then we had a bunch of them ripped up and mailed back to us and told us to never mail them and again. It’s the funniest story.Rich Birch — Wow. Yes.Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so it’s it’s all good. It’s it’s it’s this is not the South. I’m a Texas guy, and I’m living in the New England region, and it’s it’s night and day, you know.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Jeremy Baker — So what we have done really well at, I believe, causes some of the growth to happen is two things, is every week we’re encouraging people to invite somebody. That is a part of our culture. Invite culture. Who you bringing? Who do you know that’s far from God that needs the Lord right now? Who do you know that’s far from Him that you know that that you could bring?Jeremy Baker — So then the second thing is we’re doing really good social media ads. We’re spending about $1,500 a month on social media ads. And our team has done a phenomenal job. And all my team is 19, 20, 21, and 22-year-old young men and women that are running all of my social media.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.Jeremy Baker — I’m 50. I want to act like I’m current. But I’m not. You know, there’s things I don’t, I’m not adverse in. There’s things that are constantly changing with technology.Rich Birch — Sure. Yeah, sure.Jeremy Baker — And and and I just got to trust this younger generation.Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — And they have done a phenomenal job.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — That’s been one of our huge success for us to put us on the map in this region, to put us, make us aware.Rich Birch — Let’s pull it, but pull apart both of those. When you say you’re encouraging people every week, so you’re like ringing the bell that I want to hear churches to hear more of. You’re inviting people every week to invite their friends. Give us a sense. What does that look like? How are you doing that every single week? What’s that look like?Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so part of that is in our services. It’s in language. Rich Birch — Yep. Jeremy Baker — You know, we always say, you know thank you for being here this morning. We pray that you have brought somebody with you. And then at the end of our service, we’re saying, hey, don’t forget to invite somebody back next week. So we’re always saying that in our language. So it’s become part of our our culture. It’s become part of of who we are as a church. We are a bringer church. We are an inviting church. We are a reach the lost church. We are the great commission. Because the goal for us is not just giving information, but we’re hoping that the people will receive the information that causes some type of revelation in their own spirit that leads them to the Great Commission. Rich Birch — That’s good.Jeremy Baker — Because we want them to be a part of what Jesus said. He you know he said in in Matthew 10, he goes, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. You know. Pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send more laborers. So we are we are Ephesians 4, equipping the church to do the work of the ministry. We are we have to encourage people to build the local community of the church, the local house of God. And so that’s part of our language in our hallways. We have really practical things. We have invite card stands everywhere. Invite card stands everywhere. So simple. We have QR codes. You can scan. You can download all kinds of invite information. Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — You can invite our service times. So really practical steps like that have really helped us. And then in our life groups, it’s in it’s being said. In our midweek services, it’s being said. We do eight services a week. So that’s what we’re doing right now, eight services a week. And and and so in every service, it’s just been indoctrinated. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — It’s been just repetition, you know, over and over and over. Rich Birch — Yep. Jeremy Baker — And then And I think that’s a big part of why God’s allowed us to… Honestly, I don’t know church any other way. Rich Birch — Right. Sure.Jeremy Baker — I personally don’t know church any other way. I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer.Rich Birch — I don’t know about that.Jeremy Baker — I’m just I know I’m just appreciate the love. I mean I I’m a guy who barely graduated from seminary. I barely graduated, you know. I was like everybody looked at me, all the professors, like, oh, man. I hope you make it. You know, it’s like, it’s like one of those guys, it’s like, I just, I just love people well. And I want people to know Jesus. I mean, Jesus changed my life. I mean, he changed my life. He, he did something in me that no one ever has ever done or no one could ever do. And my life is I’m indebted to him.Jeremy Baker — I’m I’m living my whole life for him. That’s why 30 years of working through whatever I’ve got to work through in ministry and working through stuff as a as a young man, now as an older man. I’ve just stayed the course, stayed faithful. Not perfect, but stayed faithful, step moving forward every season of my life. And so I just love people well, and I think people hear the heart of that through our pastoral team, through our elders. Rich Birch — Sure. Jeremy Baker — They hear the heart of loving people well, that we want people to find Christ. So that’s the language I think helped us in this last season, you know, really in this last season, really grow. A year ago, a year ago, this time, we only ran, not not only, it’s great, but we were around about 900 people a year ago.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s crazy.Jeremy Baker — And then it’s last year, we’ve exploded.Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — We’ve doubled our church.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — I mean, we’ve doubled. I mean, we we we have no more parking. I mean, we we we have 345 parking spots. And then two out of the five weekend experiences, because we do other services throughout the week, two out of the five weekend experiences, we have to turn people away, which just breaks my heart as a pastor because it’s like…Rich Birch — Right. Yeah. Yes.Jeremy Baker — …we can’t build fast enough. We’re looking for bigger venues. Again, I could go on that, but we want to make more room. We want people to find hope. It was never about being big. I told a pastor locally, I said, and he was he was coming here to, you know, just to encourage us to keep going, which was very kind of him. But I said, pastor, it was never about being big. It’s always been about reaching the lost.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great.Jeremy Baker — It’s always been about reaching the lost.Rich Birch — Yeah.Jeremy Baker — So I don’t know if that makes any sense.Rich Birch — It does. It does. There’s a lot there that you, that I, you know, I, I, I didn’t want to interrupt because there’s so much packed in there that I think was so helpful for people. And, you know, that singular focus on, Hey, we’re trying to reach people. I want to come back to that in um in a minute. I want you to kind of speak to, leaders on that. Rich Birch — But I want to underline one of the, it’s a simple thing that um we miss in too many churches. And I’ve done a bunch of study on invite culture and you’re doing classically, you’re doing the best behavior classically. You’ve got to keep invite in front of people. We can’t, you can’t let up the gas pedal on that one. You’ve got to keep that in front of people, make it super practical, give them tools, all that like invite card stuff, all of that super important.Rich Birch — Years ago, I was talking to a lead pastor of a church that was growing very rapidly. And this wasn’t on a podcast. We were talking sidebar and I was like, Hey, asked a very similar question. What’s God using? And he’s like, Oh, it’s a little embarrassing. I don’t want to say it. And I’m like, no, no, tell me, what do you think he’s using? And he said, well, every weekend for this last year, We put invite cards on every single chair in every auditorium for the entire year. And we told people, take those and invite people. And he’s like, I really think that that is like just the intensity…Jeremy Baker — That’s it.Rich Birch — …of we’re keeping it in front of people. We can’t let up. So I want to I want to encourage you and that and listeners. Jeremy Baker — Thank you. Rich Birch — Hey, friends, that is that is a key part of this. Talk to us about the the focus on reaching the lost or reaching people who are far from God or unchurched people. Talk talk us through that. Rich Birch — Because what what’s happening at your church, I know we’ve kind of we’ve referenced this a few times, is super unique in in, you know, New England. What would be some of the challenges that you’re facing to keeping that singular focus of reaching unchurched people, people far from God? What’s been the challenge there and how are you having to adjust and kind of keep your culture focused on that as you continue to grow?Jeremy Baker — Such a great question. I mean, such a great question. I would, man, you’re such a great question asker, if I could say it that way.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s nice. Thank you.Jeremy Baker — Yeah I mean, a great question.Rich Birch — Sure.Jeremy Baker — I would think for me, for me, I got into ministry so that people’s lives could be changed by the good news. There’s no other way there’s no other reason why I’m in ministry. I’m here because I want people’s lives to be changed the way my life has been changed. So the the thing I’m always projecting from the the the the platform that I get to walk in, the the place that I get to stand, is it’s got to be about people. That’s why Christ came. He came and he and he died on a cross so that people would find eternal life, so that people would find hope.Jeremy Baker — And so we’re always pushing that agenda from the front. And, you know, whatever said from the platform stage, whatever you want to, however you want to articulate it, is is is is being pushed for a reason, I believe. So we’re constantly pushing this from the stage. We’ve got to reach people. People are dying and going to hell every day. And this is where I think the church sometimes trips. We got enough people now. So now let’s get let’s let’s stop making it about people and let’s start making it about preferences. Rich Birch — Come on.Jeremy Baker — And I think that’s the danger that’s the danger where guys like me can, you know, I was just having an elder meeting a few days ago, and I andI was telling our elders, because now we’ve got to implement some other pathways of discipleship, some other handles to help people grow and mature faster. And I said, you can’t push maturity. Maturity takes time.Jeremy Baker — If we’re not careful, we’ll we’ll lose the vision of what got us here. And then what happens is we’ll become inward focus rather than outward focus. said, I’ve seen it, guys. And I was talking to my elders. and I was just opening up my heart to them. I said, I’ve seen us do this. I’ve been a part of big churches where now it’s about the building. It’s about the butts.Rich Birch — So true.Jeremy Baker — It’s about the budgets. It’s about, you know, I’ve seen that. And I’m like, let us never lose the very thing that God’s allowed us to be a part of in in this season. Rich Birch — Yep, so true.Jeremy Baker — I never woke up one day and said, hey, let’s go and have one the fastest growing churches in America in the New England region. I woke up one day said, God, I’m comfortable. And I don’t want to be comfortable anymore. Rich Birch — So good. Jeremy Baker — I want you to use my life for the rest of my life until I see you to bring an impact in this region, whatever region that you send me. He sent us to the Northeast. Rich Birch — Yep.Jeremy Baker — He sent us back home to where my wife was from. And so that’s our prayer. And I want to keep the main thing the main thing. I don’t want to drift because there is a difference between, there is a difference between preferences and then and then purpose, you know. The purpose of Elevate is to make heaven more crowded. The purpose of Elevate is to make disciples that follow Jesus. The purpose is to reach our community, to make an impact. But but if you’re not careful, you’ll you’ll get you’ll get satisfied with the people. You’ll settle. You’ll get complacent. We got enough people now.Jeremy Baker — But what if but what if God really wants to change? What if God, this is my question I’ve been wrestling with, and maybe maybe you have answers for me, but I’ve been wrestling with this question in my own spirit. Like, is it possible that one church could really change a community? Is it possible that one church could, God could use a church, a group of people. Not not I’m not talking I’m not talking about domination. I’m talking about just a group of people that are passionate about making heaven more crowded, that God could use a group of people that would change the facet of a community. Rich Birch — So good.Jeremy Baker — You know? That would that that that’s the that’s the thing I’ve been wrestling with. Can God use Elevate Life in this region? What if God wants to use us to help Yale? What if God wants us to use us to, you know, to to to get on college campuses and see a revival, you know, at Yale University?Rich Birch — So good.Jeremy Baker — You know, and I mean, that’s an Ivy League school. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — I mean, people from all over the world go to that school. And we haven’t even, I feel like, scratched the surface. So that’s part of my my always, I got to keep the main thing the main thing. It’s got to be about people. So one of our values is, people is our pursuit. That’s what we’re, we’re pursuing people.Rich Birch — That’s so good.Jeremy Baker — And not programs, not not preferences. I got preferences. I mean, I’m sure we all got preferences. Rich Birch — Yes.Jeremy Baker — But I’m putting down my preference so that I can carry the purpose of the good news. I hope that makes sense.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Makes total sense. And yeah, super encouraging. And yeah, I think I think God’s placed your church in a, you know, every community across the country is an important place. There’s people all over the world that need Jesus, obviously, but I i don’t think you’re, I think it doesn’t, it’s not surprising to me that the Northeast is a place that is, some call it a spiritually dead or spiritually dry part of the country, while at the same time, it is of global significance in a lot of different ways. Like the the communities that you’re serving are are different than other parts of the kind country from an influence point of view. You place like Yale, it’s not just another university.Jeremy Baker — Yeah.Rich Birch — You know. And so I think God’s placed you there for a real specific reason, which I think is you know, super encouraging. Well, this has been a a great conversation, Jeremy. I just want to encourage you, thankful that you would come on today and help us kind of peek behind the curtain a little bit. As we land today’s episode, any kind of final words you give to church leaders that are listening in to today’s conversation?Jeremy Baker — You know, the only thing I would encourage church leaders is my my my thing I always tell pastors and and people that I am connected with always is just make it about people. Make it about people. And I’ll say it this way. It’s not problems to be solved. It’s people to be pastored. It’s not problems to be solved. It’s people to be pastored. Sometimes pastors, and I get it because I’m talking to myself, sometimes we make people the problem, and the people are not the problem. The people are the purpose of why we do the pastoring. That’s why we do what we do. That’s why we do shepherding. Jeremy Baker — So, you know, when you’re dealing with when you’re dealing with people, it’s messy. It can be hurtful. There’s there’s different things that come with that, and we could list a thousand things in that. But I would just say, just love people well to the best of your ability. Give them grace. Give them mercy. Jeremy Baker — If they leave your church and they go somewhere else, just let them know the key under the mat. We’re on the same team. We’re part of the same family. We’re all going to go to heaven to we know one day. It’s not about who’s got the bigger church or who’s better? Who’s got the better kids program or who’s got ah the more youth? It’s not about any of that. It’s about just trusting God with what he’s given us stewardship over and in stewarding that really well and just loving the people that God brings.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. Pastor Jeremy, appreciate you being on today.Jeremy Baker — Thank you.Rich Birch — If people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online to connect with you guys and kind of follow your story a little bit? I would encourage people to follow your Instagram. So where can we find that and your website and all that? Jeremy Baker — Yeah, so our website is elevatelifect.com, elevatelifect.com, and that would be the same for our Instagram. And so thank you so much for having me. ‘m very grateful, and thank you for your time.Rich Birch — Thanks so much. Take care.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Andrew Hopper, Lead Pastor of Mercy Hill Church in North Carolina. Planted in 2012 with just 30 people, Mercy Hill has grown into a multi-campus, fast-growing church known for its gospel clarity and sending culture. In this conversation, Andrew shares why adoption and foster care have become central expressions of Mercy Hill's mission—and how those practices flow directly out of the gospel. He also unpacks the heart behind his book, Chosen: Building Your Family the Way God Builds His. Is your church unsure how to engage big social needs without drifting from the gospel? Are you looking for a way to mobilize people beyond church walls while keeping discipleship front and center? Andrew offers a clear framework for doing both. Doing good as a sign of the kingdom. // Andrew addresses a common tension churches feel between community engagement and disciple-making. Mercy Hill refuses to treat these as competing priorities. Acts of service—whether foster care, adoption, or family restoration—are not the kingdom itself but signposts pointing to it. Meeting tangible needs creates openings for gospel conversations. These ministries don't replace evangelism; they amplify it by demonstrating the heart of God in visible ways. A church’s collective heartbeat. // Mercy Hill's deep involvement in adoption, foster care, and family restoration didn't start as a top-down strategy but emerged organically from the gifts and passions within the church. Many leaders and members have adopted children themselves, shaping the church's collective heartbeat. Rather than attempting to address every social issue, Mercy Hill chose to focus deeply on a few—believing churches are most effective when they lean into the specific good works God has prepared for them. This focus has mobilized hundreds of families and created a powerful witness in their community. Rope-holding and shared responsibility. // Not everyone is called to adopt or foster, but everyone can hold the rope. Drawing from the William Carey analogy, Mercy Hill equips members to support families on the front lines through prayer, childcare, meals, financial help, and presence. Over time, they've learned that rope-holding works best when built on existing relationships rather than formal assignments. The goal is to ensure no family fights alone in what Andrew describes as intense spiritual warfare. Big vision with baby steps. // Mercy Hill isn't afraid to cast a bold vision—whether for global missions, adoption, or church planting—but they pair that vision with accessible next steps. Prayer nights, giving opportunities, short-term service, and relational support allow people to grow into greater obedience over time. High challenge without guilt creates healthy discipleship. Why Andrew wrote Chosen. // Andrew wrote Chosen: Building Your Family the Way God Builds His not to promote a program, but to give churches a theological foundation for engaging adoption and foster care. The book weaves together Andrew's family story, Mercy Hill's journey, and a deeply gospel-centered motivation rooted in Scripture. Designed to be used individually or in groups, Chosen includes discussion questions and practical guidance for churches or small groups wanting to explore this calling in community. Andrew's prayer is that the book would catalyze thousands of Christian families to participate meaningfully in caring for vulnerable children and families. Gospel-driven motivation. // Underneath everything is Andrew's conviction that gospel motivation outlasts guilt. Behavior rooted in grace goes further than behavior driven by pressure. Adopted people adopt people. Chosen people choose people. That theological clarity fuels Mercy Hill's sending culture, their community impact, and their ongoing growth. To explore Andrew's resources on adoption, foster care, and grab his book, Chosen, visit andrewphopper.com/chosen or follow him on Instagram @andrewphopper. You can learn more about Mercy Hill Church at mercyhillchurch.com. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. We have got a multi-time guest on, and you know what that means. That means that I really respect, deeply admire, and want you to listen up, and today is no exception. Excited to have Andrew Hopper with us. He is the lead pastor of a church that they should be following, that you should be following. He’s a lead pastor of Mercy Hill Church with five locations, if I’m counting correctly, in North Carolina, and is repeatedly one of the fastest growing churches in the country. I love this church on many levels. They’re centered on the gospel and have a radical commitment to sending people to the nations. They have a desire to make disciples and multiply churches. Andrew, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Andrew Hopper — Man, I’m so pumped to be here. Love the podcast. Really appreciate it, man.Rich Birch — Yeah, I’m honored that you would come back. For folks that that don’t know Mercy Hill, give me a bit of a kind of an update. Tell us a little bit about the church.Andrew Hopper — Yeah.Rich Birch — Maybe update us from last time you were on.Andrew Hopper — Yeah, man. So just real quick, planted in 2012. We had 30 people, all you know kind of young professional age, and man, just really believe that God could do something incredible ah through, you know just through our our open hands, and he did.Andrew Hopper — And so it’s been 13 years. It’s crazy. We’ve been sort of pushing the same boulder up the same mountain for 13 years, just flywheel kind of concept and keep pushing. And ah the Lord has done an incredible thing, like you said, five campuses. And man, just moved into a new home and hub. That was from last time we had a chance. That’s been really great. Andrew Hopper — We were in a rented location for a long time as our main like broadcast campus. We’re a video-based multi-site. And so um it’s ah it was a three or four-year journey to raise the money and build this new facility. But we’re in, and the Lord has really blessed that with tons of new people, highest baptisms, sent ones, first time guest numbers, all everything that we’ve done. This has been a, you know, we’ve gone been on a ride – praise God for that. It’s it’s, um, it’s for his sake and his renown, but this year has been unlike the others. So it’s been…Rich Birch — Yeah, you were saying beforehand, it’s like 30 or something like 30 some percent year over year growth. That’s insane to keep up with.Andrew Hopper — It is man. And the, and the giving does not, uh, you know, the giving doesn’t happen.Rich Birch — Reflect that yet.Andrew Hopper — So it’s, it’s like, we’re trying to do ministry on a budget of a church that’s 3000, but a church that’s running 4,500. And it’s like, how do you do that effectively without killing everybody?Rich Birch — Nice.Andrew Hopper — All your staff, I mean, so, but we’re, we’re learning, man, we’re figuring it out. It’s fun. We got, we just planted our sixth church. So that’s apart from the campuses. This is first time, Rich, we’ve planted a church in our own city.Rich Birch — Oh, nice. That’s cool.Andrew Hopper — It’s been really, a really cool dynamic and it’s been fun. He’s doing great. Man, it was a college student that we met when he was 19 years old at North Carolina AT&T 10 years later. He’s an elder here. He’s done a lot of different things. And man, he goes and plants a new church in Greensboro about five minutes from one of our campuses and they’re doing great.Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah, that’s so good. Well, the thing, there’s lots I love about Mercy Hill, but one of the things that I’ve loved about your church from the you know the chance we’ve had to journey a little bit over the years about it is you just have real clarity around the mission, this idea of making disciples, multiplying churches. It’s like that has been rock solid from the beginning. When you think about we want churches to have discipleship at its core, this idea of a church that actually grows people up in their relationship with Christ. What matters most at the foundation? How are you keeping that so foundational to you know what’s happening at Mercy Hill?Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I think um I think that we always sort of bought into kind of what we see in Acts 2 as a little bit of a flywheel. We call it gather, group, give, go. A lot of churches have something like that.Andrew Hopper — The the difference, I think, at Mercy Hill a little bit than what I see ah in in in a lot of churches that we help mentor and coach is that 2020 hit and everybody was like, man, what is a church? What is discipleship? What are we going to do now? And and people were kind of… And I do think it was and it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t just me. I mean, our, you know, our executive pastor Bobby, he was really integral in this. We sort of really doubled down on no, I kind of think the church is going to come back. Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — And I kind of think what we were doing is sort of what our church is set up to do. It kind of a brand thing. We are sort of a big box sending brand. And that, you know, for us, when we look at Acts 2, we’re like, dude, the gathering, there’s no more there’s no more important hour for discipleship and evangelism. And I know there’s a lot of things written against that. And people are kind of almost like downplaying it. Andrew Hopper — We’re just like, man, we just don’t believe it. We believe people need to be in a group. You know, we they need generosity is lead step in discipleship, give. And we got to teach people that there’s a mission bigger than themselves. And if we do that, it’s going to funnel more people into the gathering. Andrew Hopper — So I think fundamentally what I would say, we need to get, you know, we could talk about our value, you know we can talk about values to gospel and [inaudible] identity, but I think landing on you know, it’s very hard now to, to not get a word salad book form or thing. When you ask somebody, how are you making disciples? It can just be like…Rich Birch — Right. Very vacuous. Who knows what that means? Yeah.Andrew Hopper — For us, it’s just been a very clear, simple process.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — Like, man, we believe if someone is in the gathering, if they’re in relationship, if they’re being pushed on generosity, and if they’re living for a mission bigger than themselves, that’s a current of maturity that will move them. They just get in the stream, they’ll move.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so good.Andrew Hopper — that’s kind of So you know for us, I think that’s as, you know we’ve we’ve tried to simplify things there.Rich Birch — Yeah. And, and your last episode, I’ve pointed a ton of people to it, uh, to really, and we really unpack a lot of what you talked about there in more detail.Andrew Hopper — Right. Yeah.Rich Birch — You’re going to want to go back and, uh, and listen to that. You’ve reached as a church, you’ve reached a lot of people who don’t grow up in church that it’s like, there’s a lot of people who are there. You know, we used to say we ain’t your mama’s church, but mama didn’t go to church, you know? So, you know, and it’s been a long time that people were there. What challenges have you seen, you know, helping move people from curiosity into real ongoing discipleship? So like, I think there are, we’re seeing a swell of attendance across the country. People are like, oh, I’m kind of interested in this, but we got to move them from just, oh, this is something interesting to like, oh, I’m actually want to grow my relationship with Jesus.Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I mean, and it’s it’s funny too, Rich, you probably have a better bird’s eye view of this than I do. But I feel like churches that have been faithfully growing for like the last 10 years, they’re not really doing a lot different now. Or even though there’s this big swell happening, what I do think is that some churches have sort of decided like, oh, clarity does matter.Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, that’s true.Andrew Hopper — And don’t try to be friends with the culture. We’re going to speak in and be prophetic. And, you know, even even to the you know Proverbs 25:26 says, you know, there’s there there’s no there’s no benefit in a muddied spring. You know, it’s like you got to be sort of you got to figure out if we’re going to be clear.Andrew Hopper — So, I you know, for me, I think like and you’re right, we do reach most of the people that we reach that are in the camp that you’re talking about our college age. We reach a lot of people, though, ah that are, you know, they’re they’re coming back to the faith because they’re a southerner.Rich Birch — Sure.Andrew Hopper — You know, they they kind of they kind of were, you know, they they did have some church in their background. They’re coming back. Their kids are not only born, but they’re realizing they’re sinners and they don’t have answers. They’re trying to figure that out.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Andrew Hopper — They’re coming back to church.Andrew Hopper — And, you know, I think the biggest thing that moves people from like interest into a decision point is just being very clear on this is what the gospel is. This is the life it compels you to. Are you going to be in or out?Andrew Hopper — One of the things we say at Mercy Hill a lot is like, man, if you’re if you’re just intrigued, you know, if you’re interested, you’re not going to stay at Mercy Hill because we’re never going to let you, you’re going to get pushed every week. And it’s like, man, people are not really in or like that. I’m not going to do that. You know, they’re just like, no I’m not going to sit here and get like pushed every single week on something I don’t really… And the flip side is when people say, all right, you know what? Stake in the ground. I’m in.Rich Birch — Yeah, we’re doing this, yep.Andrew Hopper — I wanna look like this, I want to build my life on this. It’s like, well, now, you know, it’s it’s man, I’m hopefully, you know, putting tools in the belt every single week to live that life.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s good. I do think there was a time where people wandered into our churches where I don’t think that happens as much anymore. I think people, when they arrive, they come with questions, with live active questions that they’re trying to wrestle with, kind of regardless of where they’re they’re at in their journey.Andrew Hopper — Yeah.Rich Birch — And they’re what you to your point around, you know, there’s no benefit in a muddy stream. People aren’t looking for anything that sounds like, well, what do you think? Because the reason why they’re there is because they’re asking questions. And so, you know, they’re they’re looking for clarity, like I think you’re saying. Rich Birch — Well one of the things I love about your church is there’s a high commitment to, you’re you’re you’re tearing down what I think is a false dichotomy. Sometimes I think when churches come to this idea of outreach or making a difference in their community, there’s this there can be this gap or false dichotomy between doing good in our communities and making disciples. Like we gave that up at some point. We were like, you can’t, you know, we can’t do both of those things for some reason. Why, why did we do that? Why did we, as churches say, we can’t both make a difference in our communities and also make disciples?Andrew Hopper — Yeah, I think it’s, I actually have a lot of sympathy for the fundamentalist leaning. I know it sounds a little bit weird. Rich Birch — No, that’s fine.Andrew Hopper — Churches that led from the, you know, from the good do good in your city kind of thing. I don’t think they’re right, but I do have sympathy for that because I understand how quickly that sort of, you know, is so hijacked by liberal, by theological liberalism to where it’s finally man we’re digging wells and wherever but we’re not talking about who the true source of living water is. Like we don’t want to be offensive we just want to do good without speaking the whole you know you know live your life as a Christian only use words if necessary, whatever, you know. And and I so I understand why people kind of fled and have fled that.Andrew Hopper — Like, you know, I’ve even had our church before when I when I talk about adoption or we we have a ministry, and a ministry called No More Spectators. We’re like moving people towards community ministry. And we had people kind of going on like, oh, my gosh, this seems like a sign of like churches start going this way and then they lose the gospel.Andrew Hopper — And I’m like, well, the reason you’re kind of feeling like that is because a lot of churches have done that. You know, you’re not [inaudible] like that just out of nowhere. Now, of course, I think it’s a little bit immature and we’ve got to push through. The way we talk about it, Rich, is, man, we want to do good in our community as signs of the kingdom coming.Andrew Hopper — They are not building the kingdom. You know, if we go repaint a house or house a homeless person, one day that person would parted with that house, whether they, you know, get messed up and leave or whether they do great and then would die one day, you know.Andrew Hopper — Or, if we have, ah you know, if we go and, and you know, we’re going to, for example, we have ah ah a family in our church that they need a ramp built because, man, the the brother is struggling with MS and he’s, they’re they’re fighting it like Christians do. We’re going to go do that. You know, we’re going to go build that ramp. That ramp’s going to rot and die one, you know, rot and rot away one day. And, you know, whether it’s 100 years from now or whatever.Andrew Hopper — Like it’s not literally the kingdom. But when the outside world sees us engage and, you know, our church will talk about this primarily when we think about community ministry, we think about it in terms of adoption, foster care and families count, which I can talk to you about. I think it’s bringing a sign of the kingdom that is to the community around us to say, hey, this is not the gospel. But it sure points to the gospel. Rich Birch — Right, right.Andrew Hopper — You know, it’s a pretty good signpost of like, yeah, there’s a kingdom coming where kids aren’t separated from their parents, you know. And and so that’s kind of the way that we think about, it’s not, you know, it’s not the kingdom. It’s a sign of the kingdom that is coming.Rich Birch — Yeah, let’s let’s dive in. So adoptions, foster care, families count. These are not small issues. Like you started with like putting a ramp on, painting somebody – those are like, okay, I can organize my head around that. And then we jump to what I think are obviously significant. How, it can be easy, I think, for church leaders it can be easy where, you know, we got a lot of fish to fry in our own backyard. When you see big problems like that, help us unpack that. Why do you as a lead pastor, why are you passionate about these issues? Why are these the things that you’ve chosen?Andrew Hopper — I think it’s, man, I think it’s great. I mean if you can’t if you don’t mind I’ll go back and give you a little bit of context. I’m a context [inaudible]… Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Let’s do it. Yeah. Andrew Hopper — …number one so I always want to frame it in where we’ve been. But the short answer to the question is I think that every church because it is made up of individual believers that have individual gift matrix, you know they’re they’re gifted the church is gifted in a unique way because the people which are the church are gifted in a unique way, right? Andrew Hopper — And so to me, you know, slapping, you know, a top down every single church has to to manifest signs of the kingdom in X way, which, for for example, I’m not to pick on it, but like, you know, the whole diversity church kind of movement. I love you know, if that’s your brand, that’s awesome. That’s great. Go, go bring signs of the kingdom in that area. But you know what people do is they take their thing and then slap it on every single church. You know, this is the sign of the kingdom that you have to manifest.Andrew Hopper — I don’t think that. It takes every kind of church to reach a city because there’s all you know, there’s every kind of people in the city. Right? For us, though, and I think for a lot of churches that that maybe are are made up a little bit like we are, I think there is a lot of meat on the bone for adoption, foster care, families count ministry. And I think churches could be greatly helped by latching on to maybe, you know, something in particular, maybe this, maybe this specifically. How we got there, Rich, was we had we had, you know, huge movement in our church in 2019. I was very convicted.Andrew Hopper — Some of the exponential stuff was coming out, you know, mobilizing people outside the walls of the church. And I really was, man, I was just really affected by that. And I don’t want the dichotomy, you know, I don’t want, well, you your people serve in the church and not outside the church. It’s like, no, most people serve outside the church. If you watch them, they are serving inside the church as well. It’s it’s like a it’s like, man, you know, just just because serving inside the church is not the finish line, don’t demonize it because it is a starting place.Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — So it’s like, I don’t like that kind of whole thing. But but it did affect me to say, OK, what are we doing to push to the outside? So we we we did a thing. You would have loved this, man. But it except for the fact that it didn’t really work that good. OK, it was awesome.Andrew Hopper — It was, we still have the domain name – nomorespectators.com – I had the tagline: Jesus didn’t die to create spectators. He died to create servants, not spectators, workers, not watchers. We, man, you could go to nomorespectators.com and, you know, it was like, it was like a funnel for all of these community ministry opportunities in our city. So it was, you know, people from the housing, you know, authority type stuff would post things. And it was, it was all this kind of, it had a bunch of stuff in it. Andrew Hopper — In the end of the day, great idea. It was a little too complex. Our people latched on to the foster care, pregnancy network, you know, ended up being families count, Guardian ad Litem and adoption. So our guy that was over all that at the time our sending director, which is hard for me to have a good idea that ends up dying hard, okay that’s just tough for me.Rich Birch — You had a great sticky statement and everything. Come on.Andrew Hopper — I’m the king of sunken cost bias. Okay. Like, I’m like, dude. And so finally around 2020, he came to me and he said, bro, I know this is hard for you. Cause it was like a two year initiative. He’s like, this is hard. He said, No More Spectators needs to just turn into Chosen. And it needs to be like, you had this idea for 30 different things. It just, this needs to be our niche, man. You know, we we don’t do a lot of these other things, but we do this really well.Andrew Hopper — And it was hard for me. Ultimately, it was great wisdom by them, not me. And we started going down that road. And partly, I think it’s because, Rich, is heart is near to my heart. I have an adopted daughter. A lot of our staff have adopted kids. We just have a guy right now. Our associate director of first impressions at the Rich campus is in Texas right now, you know, bringing their daughter home.Andrew Hopper — I mean, so it’s just, and so it’s sort of started to morph into, and the the the big thing I’ll say, and I, you know, I’ve been talking a lot here, but the big thing I’ll say is, if you think about the way I just ah described all that, it doesn’t start with the need in the community. It starts with the gift matrix of the church. The poor we will always have with us. Like there there is no there’s no scenario until Jesus comes back that there’s no kids that need to be adopted, you know.Rich Birch — Right, right.Andrew Hopper — And it’s just the reality of it. And so there’s always going to be need in the community. It’s more about, okay, what are the Ephesians 2:10 works that your church, because the church is made up of people who are individually called, what are the you know what are those works that God has set out for your church? Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — And, you know, so for us, we just felt like, dude, this is a a heartbeat thing. Our people got more, they get more fired up. The greatest thing I’ve ever been able to mobilize our people for prayer for is go to the abortion clinic and pray. I mean, a thousand people on their face in the pavement. It’s like, it just strikes a chord with our church and who we are. So we wanna run after that.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, I love that. And we’re going to dig out a bunch of this, but let’s think about it first from a perspective of somebody who’s maybe attended your church. They just started. They’re they’re relatively new, you know. The idea of something as weighty as adoption or foster care, that’s a big ask. And you know when you yeah how do I experience that as someone who’s just new? What are some ways that I could get plugged in? What does that look like? That, that, cause I, I’m hard, it’s hard to imagine that I go from zero to, to, you know, adoption, you know, how do I end up or flying to Texas to, you know, pick up a kid. That’s a lot. Help me understand. How are you, cause I know you guys are so good at moving people along from kind of where they are to where you’re hoping to – what’s that look like? What’s the kind of, how do you bring people along in this?Andrew Hopper — Man, totally. I think you’re right. I think it’s a combination of big vision on one end and then baby steps on the other. But the big vision matters.Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — Like we don’t want to be scared of the big vision. So, you know, for example, our weekender process, which I know you talked about some, you know, that weekender process, you know, people literally for years, we would give them a passport application in the weekender process. Because we’re like you’re at this church you’re probably going to be overseas at some point on a mission trip. And so to me it’s like people are like dude that probably scares the crap out of people. And it’s like well, I mean we want to make sure they know what they’re getting into, you know. We’re not telling them they got to do that tomorrow… Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — …but that is the, and then and then there’s all these baby steps, right? Like hey come to you know, every February we do Sent weekend. Come to the prayer night. Like that’s a baby step. That’s not you getting on a plane to go to Nepal. But you know hey we’re doing this missions offering at the end of the year, like maybe get you know. So there’s all these I would say that our the way we think about Chosen ministry, which again: adoption, foster care, families count, and rope holding, which is a big part of this discussion… Rich Birch — Okay. Andrew Hopper —…is that way. It’s big vision on the front end so we’re never going to tell somebody, hey you know, I know you could never do this. Like I’ll never…I think people can do it and they should. Or or you know more Christians than are should. At the same time we’re also not guilting anybody. Like so I’m I you know the the first thing I’ll tell people is like, hey, you know we start talking about adoption. I always say always say, hey, we have not lined up a bunch of little kids in the lobby for you to take one home today, okay. And then I’ll tell them, that’s next week.Rich Birch — That’s great.Andrew Hopper — Okay, so yeah but and we we try hard to like put some levity in it. Man, we’re not everybody’s not going to do that. In fact, a minority, of a small minority is going to do it. But everyone can be involved and there are baby steps.Andrew Hopper — So we try to highlight giving, man. Like if you someone adopts from Mercy Hill, we pay 25% of their adoption. Okay.Rich Birch — Wow. Yep.Andrew Hopper — If they’re a member and they’re in a community group, they get 25%. All right, well, you know, we’re going to connect that. Like, man, you you are never going to adopt. You feel like that’s, but it’s like, well, I give $100 a month to the church. Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — Well, hey, what? You know, you’re you are you are supporting.Rich Birch — We’re making a difference.Andrew Hopper — We do parents night out, you know, for all of our foster and adoptive parents. We do it quarterly. It’s like, hey, those are opportunities to come and serve, man. You can serve the meal you can do. We do rope holding, which I know we’ll probably talk about. But but the the idea of rope holding is just like, man, I’m not going to do this, but I can be in the corner for somebody. They’re in my community group. I want to be their first call if they need a babysitter or they need, you know, a gift card, or whatever they need.Andrew Hopper — So I think, man, we try to do big vision. You know, we’re going we’re going to set a huge vision, you know, for 2030 for 2030. Actually, we just hit our vision for 2025, which is 200 adoptive or foster families. There’s a lot of ways people can be involved with it.Rich Birch — So good. There’s, I think thing I would encourage friends who are listening in, you really should be following Mercy Hill, Andrew, because I do think you’re a very unique communicator where you, and you just described it. And I think to you, it’s just like, that’s just what you do. But this idea of like, you’re calling people to a high bar, but you’re not leveraging shame, guilt. you know, it’s, and I think so many times our language can kind of lean in that direction. Or we can, if we really are trying to push people towards something, or we can just undersell the vision. You know We can be like, oh, it’s not that it’s not that big of a deal. You know It’s not for everybody. So I would encourage people to listen in.Rich Birch — Talk to me about rope holding. How is that, what’s that look like? Unpack what that looks like a little bit.Andrew Hopper — Yeah, so rope so the the the rope-holding analogy, which a lot of your listeners probably gonna already know this, but you know William Carey, Andrew Fuller, William Carey, father of modern missions, he’s he he he makes the statement, “I’ll dangle at the end of the rope in the pit, if you’ll hold the rope,” talking to Fuller. And Fuller held the rope for him. Like, you know, Carey the mission field, Fuller’s raising money, preaching sermons, organizing mission boards. So that’s kind of the picture. Right.Andrew Hopper — So we say, all right, not everybody is going to go down into the pit of foster care adoption, even even families count. I mean, these are these are massive spiritual warfare battlegrounds you know um which is one of the reasons why our church wants to be involved so much. I mean you if you want to talk about getting to the you can do all the rhetoric in the world, brother, you want to get to the very bottom of societal issues, you you be involved in somebody’s story that’s trying that’s trying to get their kids back from the foster care system. You’re trying to help them with that. I mean, every you could fatherlessness, poverty, drug abuse. I mean, everything you can think, you know.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — So this this is just spiritual war. So what we tell people is like, hey, man. If we got people that are mobilizing for for adoption and foster care, we better have people in their corne,r because the enemy is going to bring his war machine.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — And we see it all the time. I mean, you’re going to see, you know, a family steps in to adopt and you’re going to start seeing them, you know, there can be sickness. They can have marital problems. They can have financial things that come up. They can begin to believe lies, frustrations. I mean, There’s just so they can become, you know, their their heart can start getting hard toward the system. I mean, there’s so many things that come at them. And so what we say is we need people in their corner, right. Andrew Hopper — Now, it’s funny because like the way our church has operated was at first we said, all right, we’re going to we’re going to do, you know, the the community group is going hold the rope for the people. And and that that was fine. The problem is when we really kicked off this ministry, so many people got involved that it became overwhelming to the group. So we said we got to start this… Rich Birch — Right. Andrew Hopper — …rope holding ministry. The rope holder ministry is good. It’s like, what does a rope holder do? They kind of do whatever the person needs them to do. Rich Birch — Right. Andrew Hopper — So there are examples of the rope holding ministry going really well, where it’s like, hey, man, they’re they’re helping with ah child care with the other kids when they’re going to foster care appointments in court. And or, hey, we’re we’re helping you do some things around the house whenever you’re overseas doing your adoption, which is going to put you three weeks in country. You know, there are some good examples like that. Andrew Hopper — But the other thing that we’ve learned is, you know, foster care and adoption families that are that are walking through this, they’re going through a very trying time. And to just pair them with somebody they don’t know and say, hey, look, here’s your supporter, it can be a little bit like, oh, that’s awesome, and then they never reach out to them.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — They never reach out – the rope holder’s ready.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — But it’s just like, dude, I don’t I don’t know you. And this is a hard time.Rich Birch — Who are you? Yeah, yeah.Andrew Hopper — And so what we’re trying to figure out now as we reboot that rope holder idea is, you know, how how do you kind of integrate relationships they’ve already had? Almost like, hey, do you have this massive pool of people called rope holders? Or when an adoptive family comes up, you say to them, hey, who can we shoulder tap, rope holder for you.Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — And then we’ll train them.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s cool. Yeah.Andrew Hopper — But not have this pool, but say for you, we’ll put them in. So that’s kind of what we’re, so as part of our reboot for 2030, you know, that’s sort of what’s in our mind right now.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool.Andrew Hopper — We have a whole playbook for the way we’ve done it, which anybody, you know, if anybody wants any of those things, they can go to AndrewPHopper.com/chosen. And I can send you any of that stuff we have, but on the rope holder side, you know, just full transparency, we’re still, you know, kind of, of you know, and I’m sure it’ll always be that way that we make an improvement.Rich Birch — Yeah, always trying to make it better. Yeah. And I want to, yeah, at some point in this journey, you decided, hey, we’ve got to put this vision and framework into writing, like we and you actually ended up writing a book, and friends who are listening in, I want to encourage you to pick up a copy of this book. Listen, we’re almost half an hour in. I know you’re interested in this. This is the kind of thing you, Andrew’s a trusted leader. He’s, I’ve had a chance to take a peek at the book. This will be super helpful for you. But, but that’s a lot of effort to put this together into a book. What pushed you from just leading this ministry to ultimately saying, hey, I want to capture this into a resource that could help other people?Andrew Hopper — Well, you know, Rich, I never really saw myself as like a writer, just like a practitioner, man. Let’s just keep keep working on the thing and going.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — And truthfully, I got approached. Hey, would you have any interest in writing? You know, New Growth Press is the one that’s editing this book and putting it out. And it was funny, though, because the second I was asked, I was like, man, I know what we should do [inaudible] that should be what we should do. It’s it’s our it’s it’s my story’s family story with our special needs child that we’ve adopted. It’s our church’s journey. But more important than either of those two things, it’s a grounding in the gospel-centered motivation. Because I think that is what is so important. We don’t do guilt motivation. And you know, cute kids and sad, cute kids and and sad stories are good reasons, but they you need a great reason, because it’s hard. Rich Birch — That’s good. Yep.Andrew Hopper — You know, and the great reason is of course, adopted people adopt people. And so we delve way into the helplessness of our spiritual condition, how God adopted us and then how, you know, that provides a deep motivation for us to go and do the same for others.Rich Birch — Can you unpack that a little bit more? Because I think this is, ah to me, a core part of the book that I think is really helpful. Even if you’re maybe listening in, you’re thinking, okay, I’m not sure adoption or foster care is necessarily the thing, but you unpack this idea of gospel rather than guilt. And can you talk us through, you know, how, yeah, just talk us through that part, that concept a bit more. Just double click on that a little bit.Andrew Hopper — Yeah. So, you know, when we think about behaviors that flow from the Christian life, there’s really only two ways to think about it, right? Like one of them is we try to do things in order that God would approve of us, you know, that he would, you know, he would, ah he would, he would let us in his family, you know, those those types of things. And we, you know, this is for a lot of Baptistic world, which I am, this was kind of like, wow, this is really revolutionary, but that was 20 years ago – Keller and all that. You know, we just started understanding what more of a gospel center motivation. Andrew Hopper — Of course, the other way to think about Christian behaviors is you are part of the family because of what Christ has done for you. And the family has a culture. The family works a certain way. There’s fruit that will pop out in your life, not so that you can gain entrance into the vine. That’s not how it works. Like, ah you know, you don’t you don’t produce fruit to get in the vine. You produce fruit because you’re in the vine. Andrew Hopper — And so, you know, when we think about like like Titus 2, for example, we think about how the grace of God appears to all men, teaching us not just salvation, but teaching us to obey his commands. So there’s something about salvation that and is inherent to the gospel-centered motivation of of of going out, living the Christian life. You know, it’s it’s kind of the John Bunyan idea when they said, man, if you, you know, if you keep preaching this gospel message, people are going to do whatever they want to do. And he said, no, if I keep preaching this gospel message, people are going to do whatever God wants them to do. Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — You know, and so I think what we’ve done in this book is just say, hey, that that is true universally in our Christian life. Like if I’m not tithing and I’m stingy, I can do motivation in two ways. Number one, how dare you, you piece of trash that you never, you know why would you never give? Look what God, you know, blah blah blah, blah, blah, guilt, guilt, shame, shame. Right. Andrew Hopper — Of course, the other way to say is like, man, what kind of riches has God given you in the gospel? And what kind of inheritance do you now have as a son of the king? It’s like, all right, that’s powerful, you know, and it will it will take us places that guilt never can. Guilt will work for a while. You can put fire under somebody and it’ll move them. But if you put it in them, they’ll run through a wall, you know. Rich Birch — So true.Andrew Hopper — And so it’s like it’s like, hey, OK, so you could do it with all these different things. We’ve tried to take this book and do that with adoption to say, all right.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — We know James 1:27, we need to care for the fatherless and the orphan. We understand. I mean, dude, there ain’t, when you talk about metaphors, there’s two big ones, marriage and adoption, you know? And so if you want to do adoption well, we can do it from two motivations. One motivation is look how many kids need. That’s all and that’s all true. That moves my heart. You know, look, can you believe this story of this kid? And that’s fine.Andrew Hopper — Of course, you could do guilt, too. Like, how dare you, you know, have this nice, happy family and not go adopt a little poor orphan kid. You know, you could do guilt. All those things will be fine. They’ll put fire under you a little bit. But if you want to put the fire in someone that is going to carry them through the long haul of all this stuff, I think it’s better to start with: All right. There’s kids that need to be chosen. Were you chosen?Andrew Hopper — You know, so like one of the you know, one I’ll give you an example. We know of a family here in the tribe. They’ve got an awesome son that is 20-something years old, kids got Down syndrome, and they adopted him from Ecuador. And his story was one day a carpenter was working on this building and he heard cries coming out of a dump, like a trash heap. This child had just been born and been left you know with his deformities had just been left for the dumpster. Andrew Hopper — And they brought him to the orphanage. And next thing you know, you know about three or four years later, he got adopted by this family that we know. And that family’s father, he said, Eddie’s story is my story. I was pulled from a trash heap by a carpenter. And if you it’s like that is powerful. Rich Birch — Right. Yes.Andrew Hopper — You know, when you start thinking about, man, in my sin, I was one who had no part and parcel in the kingdom of God. I was headlong in rebellion. I had rejected. I was not a son. And God lavished his love upon me, that I would be called his child. And if if that has happened to me spiritually, how could I not want to do that? Or at least help those. you know I’m not saying that’s a call for everybody, but be involved in others that are doing that as well.Andrew Hopper — And so that’s what we say. Adopted people, adopt people, chosen people, choose people. And hey, I didn’t answer your last question. Rich Birch — That’s fine.Andrew Hopper — Okay. Your last question was, why did we write the book? Very simply, I think more people just need to think about what I just said. You know, and I think churches do. And I think that if, you know, a lot of churches have adoption-minded people and a little bit of of fuel in that fire might create some really cool ministry in that church. And this book lays really well for being like, man, make it a small group resource for eight weeks. You know, it’s got questions at the end of each chapter.Andrew Hopper — Like my my prayer is that this book would catalyze tens of thousands of Christian adoptions. Rich Birch — Wow. Andrew Hopper — And that’s why we wrote the book.Rich Birch — Yeah. It’s and I thought the same thing as I was looking through it, that this would be a great resource for a small group, a great resource as a staff training thing. Because again, I think there’s two things happening on two levels. From my perspective, there’s what you’re actually talking about – adoption, but then there’s how you talk about it. And I think even both of those, I think could be interesting as a as a staff team to kind of unpack and think about. How do we ensure that what we’re doing is so gospel-infused. That’s part of why i love you as a communicator. I think you do such a good job on that. It’s just fantastic. So I would strongly encourage people to pick it up.Rich Birch — Help me understand the connection. So Mercy Hill is known for, or at least from my perspective, known as a sending church. You know, the thing, one of the and I’ve told again, I told you this before, you’re the first church leader I’ve ever bumped into that has connected new here guests to number of missionaries sent. This like idea of like this funnel of how do we move people all the way along to that? I think that’s incredible. How does that kind of sending culture and adoption, how does that fit together? How does that help kind of fuel the flywheel of what’s happening at Mercy Hill?Andrew Hopper — Well, you you helped me think about this when you came and did our one day for our for our Breaking Barriers group, you know, for the pastoral trainings that we do. Because in your church growth book, you talk about how, ah you know, community ministry is used as an evangelism tool. I’m not, I’m probably butchering the way you talk about it.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep. Oh, that’s good. Yep. That’s great.Andrew Hopper — That was like a big light bulb for me because because we we definitely do that, but we have not leveraged the communications of that.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — And so, um you know, for us now, what we’re trying to really think about is how does our adoption of foster care ministry and rope holding and families count ministry, how does that create open? We call them open doors, right? Rich Birch — Yep.Andrew Hopper — Like, how does it create open doors, questions in the community, where people come in? And we’ve seen it. You know, so like when we’re talking about the sending culture, that pipeline starts when new people get interested in faith, they get interested in church.Andrew Hopper — And, you know, like, for example, we we had a guy, we just did a historic video. Man, he’s saved, baptized, serving now, ah or, you know, family, young family, prototypical Mercy Hill guy, like, man, just you know blue collar heart, white collar job, just that. I mean, just everything we talk about. Right. He’s our he’s kind of our guy. And the way he got connected was his boss had signed up to be a rope holder. And it just blew his mind. Like, why would a guy take limited time and go help these families? I mean, he of course, he thought it was a good thing. But it really intrigued them. Andrew Hopper — And so we’ve tried to we’re trying to leverage more of the communication side. It’s tricky. You don’t want to be like, hey, look at us you know in the community. At the same time, I’m like, man, this year, you know when we’re going to do a pretty significant upgrade to some of the there our foster care system has, there’s a house that has a backyard and the backyard is where families come to play with kids, play with their kids they’re trying to get back from the foster care.Rich Birch — Right. Yep.Andrew Hopper — And we’ve said like, you know what, man, if these parents are putting in, that needs to be like the best, the best backyard, and you know?Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, absolutely. 100%.Andrew Hopper — And so, you know, we’re, we’re going to do a significant investment in some, you know, whatever…Rich Birch — Play structures and yeah. Andrew Hopper — …like a, you know, whatever, like a pergola type thing. They’re going put a shed out there. All going to connect it, pavers, all that stuff is what we want to do. And, you know, we’re, we’re looking at that and I’m going like, yeah, I mean, I get it. Like you don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, but at the same time, that’s not for us. That’s for people that are interested to say like, why would a church do that? You know, like why do they care so much?Andrew Hopper — And it’s because, Hey, sign of the kingdom. We want to build families through adoption. We want to restore families through foster care and families count. This is part of that. So we’ve tried to we’ve tried to use it as a way. And I would really encourage church leaders to think about that. Like, hey, is your community ministry actually an evangelism strategy?Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Love that. And yeah, I would encourage you continue to encourage you to think through those things because I do think that there’s, we’ve seen that there’s huge opportunity for folks who don’t normally attend church. They’re interested the way I’ve said in other contexts is they see it as a good thing. We see it as a God thing. We’re not going to fight them over the semantics of it at the front end. Because like you say it’s it’s the kingdom puncturing through that grabs their attention and you’re like oh what what you know what’s going on there? It’s a first step – how do we encourage those people? Rich Birch — Like on that backyard project, I no doubt if you’re rallying a bunch of guys to go work there, I know that there are guys in your church who have friends who they could invite who don’t attend church who maybe would never walk in your church who’d say, hey, will you come and work for a Saturday for a couple hours and swing a hammer and help us do this thing? Let me explain what this is about.They absolutely would show up, right? 100% they’d show up and and they’ll get intrigued by that. And they’ll be like, oh, what’s going on there? That’s that’s fantastic. Rich Birch — Well, friends, unabashedly, I want you to pick up copies of, not just a copy, copies of this book. So where do we want to send people to pick up copies, that sort of thing?Andrew Hopper — Yeah, man, they can just go to andrewphopper.com/chosen. Rich Birch — Perfect. Yep.Andrew Hopper — The book’s out so they can pick up a copy. I mean, it’s also just like on Amazon or whatever, but that link will take you straight to New Growth Press.Rich Birch — Right.Andrew Hopper — So, yeah, man, would love it. Would love to hear from anybody who’s using it well in a church context um to catalyze Christian adoption.Rich Birch — Love it. Anything else you want to share just as we close and how can people track, go to the website, other places we want to send them as we close up today.Andrew Hopper — Also on Instagram, we have a lot of stuff on Instagram, andrewphopper on Instagram. Yeah, the last thing I would say as a closing thought, Rich, is you know, the Christian adoption boom has sort of happened 20 years ago. People started talking about this a lot more. And now you can feel in some of the podcast world and all that, there’s a bit of a backlash, not not to don’t do it, but also like, hey, no one told us how hard this was going to be. Andrew Hopper — You’re dealing with traumatic situations, kids that have been brought, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s crazy. One thing I try to do in this book is I try to say, Hey, that’s not a good reason to take our ball and go home, you know.Rich Birch — That’s good.Andrew Hopper — Instead we just need to try to shoot as straight as we can. And I do that in this book, man. It is hard. It’s you’re on the front lines of spiritual war. I mean, it’s almost like, dude, the, the, the greatest transfer of faith from one generation to another happens in the home. We love it when adults get saved. I get that. But let’s be honest. Statistically, where does it normally happen? Right. Rich Birch — Yeah. Kids. Andrew Hopper — And so if you got a home that’s broken apart, that Christians are trying to put back together, what did we think Satan was going to do? You know, and so instead of taking our ball and going home, let’s just call it what it is, and then ask the Lord to steel our spine… Rich Birch — That’s good. Andrew Hopper — …and to move forward with the mission. So, yeah, man, I’d love for people to pick it up. And I appreciate the time to talk about it today.Rich Birch — Andrew, thanks so much. Appreciate you. Just want to honor you for the work you do. You’re a great leader. And I love how God’s using you and your church to make a difference. Thanks for being on the show today.Andrew Hopper — Thanks, brother.

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. We're talking with Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe, a firm that partners with churches across the country to design and build facilities that amplify ministry impact. With more than 15 years of experience in church architecture, project management, and ministry leadership, Aaron and his team help churches navigate complex building challenges while staying focused on mission. Is your church facing growing pains—crowded lobbies, full parking lots, or overwhelmed kids' spaces—but unsure how to move forward? Aaron shares practical insights on how to approach facility planning strategically, align vision with budget, and avoid the costly mistakes that can slow down momentum. Overcoming the overwhelm. // When churches consider expansion or renovation, leaders often feel paralyzed by the process. Questions about cost, zoning, design, and disruption quickly pile up. Too often, churches jump straight to hiring an architect before defining their real needs. Instead, churches should first clarify what's working, what's broken, and what's next before anyone draws plans. Start with scope and budget. // The two guardrails of every successful project are scope (what you're building) and budget (what you can spend). Aaron warns that skipping this step often leads to beautiful drawings that churches can't afford. Risepointe begins with a Needs Analysis, an on-site deep dive into the church's DNA, culture, and challenges. The team listens to staff, studies how people use the building, and identifies bottlenecks—whether it's the children's hallway, lobby congestion, or limited parking. Only then do they define the right-size project and realistic cost range. The power of early engagement. // Most churches wait too long to start planning. Zoning approvals, fundraising, and construction all take longer than expected, especially in urban areas. Waiting too long forces rushed design work, unclear budgets, and lost ministry opportunities. You don't have to build everything at once. Start with a plan that captures the next few wins—like improving your lobby or kids' check-in—while preparing for long-term growth. Knowing when it's time. // Aaron says early warning signs include maxing out your primary service, overflowing kids' spaces, and parking lots at capacity. Many pastors misjudge space needs because they see the auditorium every Sunday but rarely experience the parking or early childhood chaos firsthand. Evaluating your entire Sunday experience—entry to exit—reveals where capacity problems really begin. Aligning buildings with ministry models. // Every church facility reflects a ministry philosophy—but those philosophies evolve. Where there used to be 40-year ministry cycles, now they are closer to 10 to 20. Churches shaped by the seeker-sensitive movement, for example, are now adapting to relational, community-driven models. Spaces that once emphasized rows and stages now need more environments for conversations, mentoring, and connection. A free resource for leaders. // To help churches begin the conversation, Aaron's team created a free guide called “10 Things to Get Right Before You Build.” The resource walks through key questions every church should answer before launching a building project—from clarifying vision and budget to preparing for change. You can download it and schedule a free consultation at risepointe.com/unseminary. To learn more about Risepointe's work helping churches align facilities with mission, visit risepointe.com/unseminary or follow Risepointe on Instagram for inspiration and project stories. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, across the country, we keep hearing about churches that are growing and we’re seeing swelling attendance and that’s good. Some of that is like a platinum problem though. It generates other issues that we have to think about. And so what what I did was pull on a friend of mine, Aaron Stanski, he’s the founder and CEO of Risepointe. He’s got 15 plus years of church design, leadership and project management and experience. Rich Birch — If you don’t know Risepointe, where have you been? You’re living under a rock. They’re church architects and designers. They have years of experience working with churches like yours, schools and nonprofits, and they offer a wide range wide variety of services, including architecture, interior design, graphic design, branding, and so much more. Aaron is, I like Aaron not just because he actually has got incredible skills. His team’s got incredible skills, but he really actually wants to help churches like you. And so Aaron, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I’m glad to be here, Rich. Rich Birch — It’s going to be good. Give give people, you’ve been on a couple of times… Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — …and but give us again, for folks that haven’t heard, the Aaron Stanski, you know, a couple bullet points. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — What did I miss? What do you want to fill in the picture? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, ah you know the quick story is grew up in ministry. My dad was a pastor growing up, planted a we planted a church in Boston when I was a kid. Went to school for engineering, worked for Harley Davidson Motorcycles, did big projects, project management and stuff for them for a while. And then felt called to ministry. Aaron Stanski — So left Harley Davidson, was on staff with Cru for a couple years doing college ministry before I jumped on staff at a fast growing multi-site church here in Chicago. So loved that, loved being part of that ministry team. And then, of course, we went through a big building project. So got to roll up my sleeves on the on the church staff side of things and hire architects and engineers and AV consultants and really kind of combine my my engineering mind and my ministry heart. And so absolutely love that process. And so, yeah, I’ve been helping churches now for the last 15, 16 years. It’s been an absolute blast. Rich Birch — So good. Well, the the kind of person I want to have in mind today, and so friends, if if you’re listening in, if this sounds a little bit like you, you’re going to want to pay close attention. So I’m thinking about that church, you know, the leader that looks around, they maybe have got, maybe they got two services. Rich Birch — They’re looking around and they’re seeing, ooh, they feel like maybe their growth ah is starting to create some pinch points. Maybe it’s in kids. Maybe it’s in adults. Maybe it’s their lobby. It’s they look around and they’re like, man, I just I feel like our facility might be holding us back a little bit. um And because I do bump into this in churches all the time. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — And there’s like, there can be like a certain amount of anxiety and fear around, gosh, when do I, what do I do? So when you talk to pastors, what do you know notice as one of the kind of most common point of confusion when it comes to starting or pulling the trigger, moving on with a building project, expansion project, try to improve things. Where are we getting this wrong? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think ah like one, the whole process itself can just be completely overwhelming. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — Like immediately you’re confronted with, ah oh my goodness, like what’s the right solution? What is the, ah what is the town or the, you know, the jurisdiction going to allow us to do? What is this all going to cost? Where are we going to do church in the meantime if we’re having to fix this building or add on to it? Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Aaron Stanski — I mean, immediately all of these questions start to kind of well up and it can become ah really overwhelming for a lot of churches. Rich Birch — So good. So when when we step back, is there any one of those that you think in particular is like a piece of the puzzle that is the most kind of mysterious or is the most um confusing as as you that you bump into regularly with leaders? Aaron Stanski — I mean, I think the most confusing is probably like, what’s the right solution? Rich Birch — Okay. Yep. Aaron Stanski — A lot of times it’s a combination of like, you know, we feel like we’re out of space, so we have to add on. But if we do that, we’re going to have to modify what we already have. And what we have is old, or there’s some maintenance on it that we haven’t gotten around to. And like, what can we do in this space? And so actually the the right solution is is probably one of the most difficult things to kind of imagine for a lot of pastors. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And, you know, then right behind that is like. What’s it going to cost? Right. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — I mean, you know, for the last four or five years, we’ve seen a lot of inflation. We’ve seen a lot of different things happening, like with pricing and stuff. And so what used to be a pretty easy calculation for us as churches now, it feels like it’s a lot foggier as far as like what what things are just going to cost. Rich Birch — Yeah. So I’ve heard church leaders at this this juncture, they start thinking like, okay, like we got to get an architect. Get me the architect, the the person that designed this building 25 years ago. Where are they? Are they still in business? And, you know, we start going down that road. I’m not even really sure what an architect does. Like, I obviously, you you draw things. But, like, help us understand what what is the piece of the puzzle that, like, an architect brings to the table. Aaron Stanski — Right. Rich Birch — And I know that’s, like, a subset of what you guys do. Pretend that I’m, like, super dumb because it’s probably not actually worry about pretending too much there. Explain what that is. What is that service? And is that actually what we need at this juncture? Is that the first question? Like, get the architect. Come in here. Explain that whole thing. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, well, I think we have to be careful. Sometimes hiring an architect is like picking up a hammer, right? And for a lot of architects who were, you know, traditionally trained and might have like one sort of, you know, viewpoint of the world. Like their job is to come in and draw something new um that’s going to sort of solve your problem. The challenge with that is a lot of times that architect is just looking for ah one type of solution, ah which is build you something new, add something on. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — And they’re looking at it very narrowly through the lens of what the solution is going to be. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Aaron Stanski — And a lot of times they’re not, you know, kind of able to kind of step back and take a look at strategically and say, okay, before we start drawing plans and blueprints and some of those sorts of things, let’s really talk about like what’s going really well at your church and how are we going to amplify what you’re already doing well? How are we going to add some, you know, some pieces around it? And then of course, how are we going to fix some of the big, you know, some of the bigger problems? Aaron Stanski — So an architect technically, right? I mean, it’s a licensed professional. Their job is to lead your organization through the process from the very beginning all the way through the stages of design. Their job is to make sure that the solution is aligned with your with who you are as an organization and your budget. And they’re supposed to help all the way through construction, making sure that it gets built the way that it was designed and and that it gets you know all the questions get answered and that it’s ultimately safe. Aaron Stanski — So that’s what an architect does. I think the I think the thing that we miss a little bit on the front end is in order for the architect to start, we really need kind of need to know what the scope of the work is and the budget first. Rich Birch — So good. Okay. Okay. Good. Aaron Stanski — If we don’t put those two guardrails on the left and the right-hand side, we’re really missing out. The left-hand side should be scope. The right-hand side should be budget. And we should nail those down before we get going into designing. Rich Birch — Okay. I want to unpack that because I know, I actually texted you recently. Friends, getting you behind the scenes a little bit. I had a friend of mine, they had done exactly what we talked about here. They were like, we went and hired an architect to help with this thing. And they came back with a ginormous number um that was like, I would say a factor, you know, three or four times what I thought. And what do I know? I don’t know anything. Rich Birch — And I actually think it was these guardrails where they went off off on it. They didn’t start with scope and budget. They started with, hey, here’s a problem, architect – solve it for us. And they came back with this, you know, very incredible initial drawing and all that. Rich Birch — Talk us through how do we nail down scope and budget from the beginning? Talk us through what does that look like? Aaron Stanski — Yeah, so I would say, ah you know, you want to find a ministry partner who’s going to come in and really kind of help ah flesh out some of those pieces, really understand what’s working well, what’s not working well, what’s missing, where do we have to clarify what it is that we’re doing in order so to sort of establish that. And and there’s ah there’s a lot of great partners out there who can help you do that. But you’re really looking for someone in the building/design/construction space who has experience who has a lot of experience, honestly, with churches and understands what it means to, you know, serve people who’ve been part of your church for 20, 30 years and keep them on mission and disciple them up, as well as welcoming people who are walking into your doors for the very first time. Aaron Stanski — So at Risepointe, we walk through a process called The Needs Analysis, where we get on site with, you know, a church for an entire day and understand their DNA and really understand what’s working and not working and stuff. And we start with that so that we can sketch out some ideas and some concepts and stuff around what is the what is the scope of work that’s going to solve the problem or fix the lid or add the seats that we need? And what’s the budget that we feel like God’s calling us to spend as a church in order to go do that? And we want to start with that before we jump into full architecture. Rich Birch — Okay, so sidebar question. Is it possible for someone to help us at this early kind of scoping phase without doing some sort of on-site? Like, can I just call an architect and say, hey, here’s the problem. I need to add a thousand seats. How much is that going to cost? And then they go away and come back with a number. Or, or you know, are is there, yeah, can they do that? Talk us through that. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can. I mean, you can call up Risepointe and I’ll get on the phone with you. The, and, but there’s going to be a range, right? Rich Birch — Okay. Aaron Stanski — And I can say like, Hey, here’s the last 10 churches that we’ve done a thousand seat auditoriums at… Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — …and here’s kind of the range and stuff. The problem with shortcutting to that is you miss a lot of things, right? Each jurisdiction is different, like how the civil engineering works, the parking requirements and stuff. Rich Birch — Right. Good. Yep. Aaron Stanski — And those really affect the budget. And so we want to understand those first. And the second thing is, I mean, every church that we work with is and incredibly unique in the people that they’re reaching, and the values that those people have and whether they’re de-churched or unchurched and and who they’re running into and and stuff. And so really kind of understanding that context is so important um before we jump into, you know, sort of solution. Aaron Stanski — But yeah, I mean, since we work with churches all over the country, I mean, if someone called me up, I could probably, I could probably put my thumb in the air and give them a ah swag on what that might cost. Rich Birch — Yeah. And I would, you know, it’s funny because I’ve, I’ve recommended people have asked me those kinds of questions and I always actually say exactly what, you know, where you led, which is like, you should call my friend Aaron and, but, but what you should do, get on the, do the like free call or whatever, get on the book a time. But I said, you really should do this Needs Analysis thing. Cause the project that you’re facing is always much larger than you think. Rich Birch — And I would rather people take time, invest the resources upfront and time, frankly, to slow down and say let’s actually understand the question we’re asking before we jump to answers, right? Like what because because we could get this thing wrong and actually that gets to this whole idea of how early is too early. My experience has been people wait too long before they engage with someone like you. They they get into like their third service, fourth service. They’re like, oh gosh, people aren’t going to the fifth service. Maybe we have to figure out how to get more space. Talk us about, you know, what mistakes do we make when we wait too long without engaging with someone like you? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I’d say, you know, the thing to keep in mind is that you’re, if you’re the average church that reaches out to Risepointe, you’re somewhere between two and a half and three years away from having any sort of new space. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Okay. Aaron Stanski — And that’s on the short end. We have churches who are bringing new space online five years after they’ve reached out to us because they’re, they live in downtown areas… Rich Birch — Wow. Aaron Stanski — …very challenging jurisdictions and some things like that. Rich Birch — Yep. Aaron Stanski — And so when we’re thinking about when is the right time, I think, yeah, earlier is definitely better. But we have to be careful ah that we’re strategically spending dollars even on the front end, you know, so that we, you know, we’re getting out of it what we need. Aaron Stanski — As leaders, what questions are we asking that we need answers for in order to determine is it the right time to move forward with a building project? Is it a right time to launch a campus or go multi-site or some things like that? Aaron Stanski — If you wait too long, typically what happens is either we’re we’re rushing through the design process to kind of hit the capital campaign stuff and there’s budget misalignment. All of a sudden we thought it might be this, but now this is the actual budget for what it’s going to work. Aaron Stanski — And I think when that happens, there starts to be some vision confusion. You know, we’re looking at solutions that we kind of rushed through and it doesn’t feel like we really thought all of those things through. And so I think that’s another one. Aaron Stanski — And then I just think, you know, there’s there’s some missed ministry opportunities if if we kind of wait too long. I think a lot of times when we’re planning out, here’s the multiple phases of how we develop this campus and expand it. You know, we miss out on opportunities to go get some smaller things done sooner… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …capture momentum, you you know, fix the welcome center, like invest some dollars in something we know we’re not going to tear down, make it better for guests in a couple months. And we miss out on those things if we don’t have a bigger, more strategic plan. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. Yeah, kind of a step back and say, hey, how does this fit into where everything that’s going on? Rich Birch — What would be kind of double clicking on that? What would be some indicators internally that would say, hey, um you know, these things are happening. I should really reach out to Risepointe. What would be some of the things that you would see as telltale signs that it’s now a time to to kind of take this step? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, I think if we’re, you know, if we’re really pushing towards our, those max numbers at our primary service, I think that’s a, that’s definitely an early indicator. Aaron Stanski — A lot of churches just kind of reach out and say, Hey, okay, here’s, here’s kind of where we’re at. Here’s where the math is at. Like, can you look at this like from a, like how much kids area should we have? How much lobby space should we have? And we can run some quick math for them and say, Hey, you don’t have any other lids. You’re looking good. You, you probably have a few more years of growth in you. Aaron Stanski — So that would be one. You know i think if ah you know we’re starting to talk about ah adding a third or fourth service, it’s probably a little bit too late, but we should probably get on it sooner than later. Aaron Stanski — And then, you know, one of the, one of the other things too, is just kind of paying attention. It’s easy for us on Sundays to stand on the stage and look out and get a pretty good sense of, are there enough seats? Is there space for me here? And like, we look out and we see some empty chairs. Aaron Stanski — Keep in mind that when you’re coming in from the back of the auditorium, it’s a lot harder to see some of those empty chairs. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so what is the percentage? But the other thing is the things that we’re not seeing when more when we’re on stage on Sunday is we’re not seeing the parking lot. We’re not seeing the early childhood wing that’s basically a it’s a it’s a disaster back there. There’s kids running around like crazy. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes. Aaron Stanski — And so even if we’re ah even if we have enough seats, like or we’re not at the 80 or 90 percent capacity to our primary service. We need to be looking out at some of these other areas and making sure that there’s not a lid somewhere else. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. In fact, I literally just last weekend said that to a church. I was, you know, I was doing a weekend visit where I was on site and all that stuff. And, and it, to me, it felt like the building, the parking, and the kids, and the main auditorium, they, or the adult auditorium, they just didn’t match. It was like they, the three were out of alignment. And I think they had enough kids, but you know, I don’t know. There was, it’s interesting how that can happen. And you know the lead pastor typically is seeing um only the adult room and not you know not anything else. Rich Birch — Early on, you know there’s my experience has been and projects that have been a part of that I would rather spend money as personally as a leader. I’m not saying, friends, if you’re listening in, that you need to necessarily do this. Rich Birch — I would rather spend money on the front end with a designer like you. Because because the joke I’ve made is it’s a lot cheaper to move walls on drawings than it is in in the real world. And I’ve that comes from pain of building stuff… Aaron Stanski — It’s true. Yeah. Rich Birch — …of building stuff, and then being literally I opened up a new facility and then stood there with a kids ministry person. And the kids ministry person was like, oh, I didn’t think it was going to look like this. I was like, oh my goodness, what what are you talking about? Aaron Stanski — Shoot. Rich Birch — Like, we just opened this new facility. Talk us through, like, what’s an investment on the front end to reach out to someone like you? Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — How do you help churches see that hiring someone like you can actually save us resources in the long haul? Talk us through that. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, starting out at the beginning and getting really clear about where we’re going and how we’re going to get there, it really helps us, you know, cart and like make sure we don’t overbuild or underbuild. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — It makes sure that like compared to all the other churches that we’re working with all over the country, that we’re in alignment with where the square footage is at and it’s aligned with how you do ministry locally, how you use these spaces seven days a week. Aaron Stanski — And so it’s it’s really making sure that we’re not overbuilding or underbuilding anywhere because that’s ah you know that’s a huge that’s a huge miss if we do that. And that’s probably one of the biggest cost savings. Aaron Stanski — The other thing is you know during you know during sort of that season of vision and master planning and when we’re talking to our folks about what God’s doing at the church and we’re telling stories of life change, like we’re really kind of laying out a vision for what God is calling us to do as a ministry. And people just naturally have questions around like, like, how is this going to help? And and how is this actually going to help us reach my lost coworker, my lost neighbor? Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And, and so I think, you know, spending the time to do that, really translating sort of the mission and vision into physical space needs and producing some of those renderings that accompany that story. I mean, that’s just a really critical part. Rich Birch — Okay, so let’s double click on that. That’s that I feel like I have been caught in this situation where I get I get like, it’s the hammer and nail thing you you say. Like, I’m I’m pretty sure I know what the solution is. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — Like, let’s go do this. And I like that what you’re saying is like, hey, we need to take a step back and like actually think through how does this fit in our vision and how’s that all? How do you actually do that? How do you help a leadership team discern what the problem is that they’re really needing to solve, or should be solving, rather than just let’s build a bigger box. Or, I know! We just need 25 new parking spots. Like how do we not jump too quickly to that? What’s that look like? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, it looks like, you know, spending time. Rich Birch — Good. And and, really getting to know them and what makes them unique. Like we have a fantastic set of tools that we use at Risepointe to like really talk about, you know, let’s talk about, uh, outside the walls, right? Like who, who are we called to reach? And, and what does it mean to do ministry in this place that God has uniquely put your church in the geographic area? Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And let’s talk about the tension between this side of town and that side of town. And let’s, you know, let’s wrestle with, you know, some of those issues. And then let’s, and then let’s talk about like, like, man, who are we as a church on our best day? And what does it feel like when we’re like living up to our full potential? Aaron Stanski — And then we even get into some of the things around like, man, what are what are some of the strategic drivers? What’s driving more people hearing about Jesus? What’s working really well? What do you see as opportunities or things that where if you had the right leader or finances that you’d be able to you know, accomplish even more of your mission. Aaron Stanski — And so by starting there and then starting to work down towards, okay, where is your facility aligned with that with that exercise and where is it misaligned? Okay, let’s unpack that a little bit. And then without getting into ah the solution yet, I want to meet like individually with each you know ministry leader… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …talk about what how check-in works and all of those things. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so it’s really sort of this almost like a 360 review of what’s happening between the mission and vision God’s given us, and how are our facilities helping or hindering that mission and vision. Aaron Stanski — And then it just comes down to budget. And so, okay, here are the possible solutions. Here’s what roughly what some of those things are going to cost. And then it’s going to the, going to God in prayer and saying, okay, what are you calling us to do? What are based on these options and trying to figure it out? Rich Birch — I want I want to come back to the budget question in a second. But I’ve I think I probably have stole this off you. I have said to multiple church leaders that like our buildings were built, there was like a philosophical underpinning of the the buildings that we were built with. There was a ministry model that they were built on. Aaron Stanski — Sure. Yeah. Rich Birch — And then there’s been a lag between when we made those decisions, we’ve we built them. Now we’ve been using them for X number of years. And our ministry model may no longer be the same as the building, or probably isn’t actually the same as when the building was built. Rich Birch — What’s your sense on how long that lag time is kind of between the, they they you know, we built something. If we built something more than 10 years ago, you know we probably want to readdress or look at our facilities afresh and say does this actually meet the needs of… Aaron Stanski — Sure. Rich Birch — Because I feel like so many of us are in like the the cramped shoes that just don’t quite fit they work but they don’t quite fitWhat do you think that lag time is? Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, the lag time is getting shorter and shorter. Rich Birch — Okay. Aaron Stanski — It used to be, you know, it probably used to be 40 or 50 years… Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — …you know, without major ministry model shifts and stuff. Obviously, you know, Willow Creek, North Point, you know, coming onto of the scene in the in the late 90s and stuff really shifted. We have churches all the way up into the 2000s, even into the 2010s that sort of copied the model of the Willow Creeks and some of those things. And I think we’re seeing, you know, we’re seeing the model shifting a lot faster now. Rich Birch — Interesting. Aaron Stanski — I’d say, you know, you know, we’re probably in a faster 10 to 20 year cycle, something like that. But I think we’re coming out of the, you know, the, you know, that model of Willow Creek and North Point and stuff. And we’re, we’re moving into a new season. And it’s kind of exciting for us. Rich Birch — Yeah. Aaron Stanski — I mean, we get to, we get to sit on the front edge of all of that. Churches like in fantastic places, being creative, reaching, you know, people for Christ. And so it’s just interesting to kind of observe some of those things and, um and observe what’s working really well and, and where it we can improve, you know? Rich Birch — Yeah. You’re baiting me. What are those things that you’ve seen that have shifted? There’s got to be, or is that the magic? We got to call Aaron to find out. Aaron Stanski — No, you don’t have to call Aaron. No, I mean, the thing, I mean, like, you know, I heard someone share this with me recently, right? I mean, every Netflix account homepage is different for every person, all billion subscribers or whatever that they have. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — They’re individually tailored to to those individuals. And I know that because when I had a bunch of seventh grade boys spend the night at my house, like my algorithm got so messed up on my Netflix account last weekend. Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Aaron Stanski — But I think there is a shift away from you know some of the bigger, more institutional types of look and feel and trying to get down to, okay, how are we engaging one-on-one with people who are walking in and where they’re at. Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — How do we, you know, instead of preach a sermon at them, how do we hear their story? And what does it look like for us to hear their story in in various places, whether that’s a welcome center, whether that’s, ah you know, side by side in the pew, whether that’s in sort of a first steps class. And so there’s a shift on that side of things… Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah, that’s interesting. Aaron Stanski — …just like as we look at the next generation and how we engage and reach the next generation. Rich Birch — Okay, I want to loop back on the money question. So for folks that don’t know, a part of what I do is actually help churches with that. And don’t really talk about it publicly, but I do. And, you know, there is this interesting tension that churches often come to this. It’s like we think we’re different than our ourselves. Rich Birch — And that if I was going to go build a new house, I would have to start with, well, how much income do I have? And like, what can the, you know, what can the, you know, what what would the what would the bank give me from a mortgage point of view? Like I start with reality around my finances. But so many churches start with, let’s build this giant thing. And it’s totally disconnected from the from what we could actually afford to either raise or carry long-term. Rich Birch — How much variance can a church bring to a design? Like if they upfront are defining, Hey, like we can afford probably 5 million. I know I’ve got $35 million dollars in dreams or maybe not. That’s, that’s too crazy. I got $15 million dollars in dreams. Is it possible for me to, to actually get that into a tighter box? Help us understand how do we do that? How do we on the front end be realistic with our finances as we’re doing this design thing? Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, I think we have to with open hands, we have to hold out the, you know, the dreams, the vision, you know, the stuff that God’s given us. And we have to prayerfully sort of go through that exercise and say, okay, ah but how much risk do I want to introduce into the organization, like via debt? Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — What what is God actually calling us to do with those things? And we have to be creative in how we and and how we get across the finish line. I think when I when I hear sometimes a senior pastor sharing with me his $35 million dollars vision, Rich… Rich Birch — Yes, yes, yes. Aaron Stanski — …what I immediately try to do is say, okay, talk to me about what it is about that $35 million dollar thing that’s resonating with you. Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Aaron Stanski — And so even though he’s describing something that’s $35 million, dollars and as an architect, I might get really excited about drawing $35 million dollars worth of stuff. Rich Birch — Yes. Aaron Stanski — If he actually can’t afford it and can’t raise it, he’s actually not going to go do it. Rich Birch — Right. Aaron Stanski — So I need to go back to that vision and say, okay, what are the pieces in there that are from God, that are ah that are aligned with the mission that his church has and stuff? And I need to contextualize that. And then as an architect, as a designer, I have to turn around and say, okay, with my guardrails in place of budget and scope, how do I express those things… Rich Birch — That’s good. Aaron Stanski — …in the $5 million dollars that God has entrusted our church with? And so there’s going to be a lot of difficult decisions along the way. We’re going to have to prioritize some things. And some other things might have to go on the back burner. But that’s the process that we want to help churches walk through um to to get them to that point where they’re walking into a space for the first time and going, oh, man, this feels like us. Like this is this is who God wants us to be in our community. And I’m so excited about doing ministry in this new space. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. So it’s it’s not, from what I hear you saying, it’s not unreasonable on the front end to be like, hey, we should actually bring, like, be clear on this is this is what we think we can actually raise. This is that what we think we can carry. We think we could do a project of X, whatever. And that needs to be early on in the discussion rather than we’re disappointed on the back end. Oh my goodness, we got this this big number and we don’t know what to do with it. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I like to be doing it simultaneously. I like to be doing the Needs Analysis and working through, okay, here’s the eight different project options. You can relocate and spend $35 million. You can add on. You can you can do this. All right, here’s your here’s your four options, $10, $8, $6, $4 million dollars And at the same time, I like to encourage churches to like, okay, go talk to someone like yourself… Rich Birch — Yep. Aaron Stanski — …and say, okay, what do we think we could raise if we did a capital campaign? How much debt do we currently have? How do our elders feel about us you know borrowing some money if it if it makes a bigger impact on the project? Because if we can bring those two things together and pray through it and get clarity from God about what he’s asking us to do, then I can go ah help draw buildings and blueprints and things like that. Rich, you can help them raise some money and they and we can you know we can go through that process. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, it’s great. And you know, my experience has been every one of those steps, friends, is, it’s a lot of work. It’s, it’s like a, it’s a faith ah stretching experience. There are late, late nights staring at the ceiling, but every one of those I’ve been a part of, literally 100% of them have been transformative in the life of the church. You know, when they, when you look back, you’re like, wow, that was an inflection point. I am so glad we went through that. It wasn’t this like we did that and I was like, man, that wasn’t such so good in the end. It was really was amazing. Rich Birch — Well, there’s a resource that you’ve provided. It’s called 10 Things to Get ah Right Before You Build. Talk to us about this resource and then and then where can where can we want to make sure people get this. Tell us tell us a little bit about this. Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, like with, you know, church, hundreds of churches calling us, you know, every year, asking a lot of the questions that we’ve talked about today. Like we tried to distill down what are the most common things the churches are like, okay, pause real quick. I got to go do something real fast before we decide that we can sort of move forward. And so some of these things are what happens like while you’re talking to Risepointe and some of these things might be before. But I think it’s just kind of a helpful reminder and ah a thoughtful list to kind of work through. Aaron Stanski — And so if that’s helpful at all, or if that’s interesting at all, um you can just go to risepointe.com/unseminary. And a little ah little landing page will pop up there. There’s two things you can do on that page. The first one is to just give us your name and your email there and sign up and get that 10 things to download. Aaron Stanski — I also threw another button on there this morning in case you’re like, hey, that sounds great, but I’ve got I’ve got a specific question I have about our building. Or like, I actually really need to talk to you guys about what our options are. And so I put another button down there at the bottom. If you want to schedule a call with myself or one of our architects, we’d love to hop on the phone with you. No charge for that. 30 minutes. Just kind of talk through where you’re at, what some of your questions are and see if we might be able to help. So ah once again, that’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And you can get all that, all that stuff right there. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s risepointe.com/unseminary. And friends, I’ve had multiple friends in ministry who have engaged with with Aaron across the entire spectrum. The like free 30 minute thing all the way up through, you know, the kind of full deal, help get a whole project out the door. And and just so happy with the work that Risepointe does. And just has been transformative for their churches. So you get a hearty endorsement from me. You really should do that. Again, that’s just risepointe.com/unseminary. You can pick this up. It is a helpful little PDF, and the schedule call is a great thing. Rich Birch — Well, Aaron, I appreciate you being here today. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you guys or if they’re anywhere else online, obviously risepointe.com. We want to send them to anywhere else online. We want to we want to send them to. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. I mean, you can always, uh, you know, follow us on the Insta or whatever you want to do there. Rich Birch — Nice. Love it. Aaron Stanski — If you’re into like, you know, cool pictures of like steel being erected, ah or, uh, kids ministry stuff or pictures and stuff, we’re trying to share a little bit more info there. But yeah, I mean, or just our website and, uh, yeah, stay connected. Rich Birch — That’s so good. Thanks for being here and have a good day, buddy. Aaron Stanski — All right, you too. Bye.

Welcome to the Practical Church podcast brought to you in partnership with Mission Support. Mission Support This episode was brought to you by Mission Support.  Stay focused on your mission and let Mission Support help you with everything you didn't go to seminary for! Get support from experts with decades of experience working with churches who know your unique needs and challenges. Click here to talk with a guide today & love being a pastor again! HERE ARE THE 7 LESSONS I DISCUSS IN THIS EPISODE Repeatedly share the need, then follow up with people  People are very willing to serve if they think what they do matters Schedule set up + tear down teams separately  People are more gracious with imperfection when portable  People need to be trained  Pay for signage Pay for portable equipment Get more church tips and advice Click here to join the Practical Church Facebook group

Thanks for joining in the unSeminary podcast. I'm excited to have Jeff Beachum with us. He's part of Portable Church Industries (PCI), which has helped thousands of churches launch and operate successfully in mobile settings. Jeff serves as the Multiplication Specialist and Director of Marketing. Is your church running out of capacity, but looking for […]

This week Josh Baldwin and Youth Pastor Zachary Dyck apply an episode from The Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast directly to Switch. Are you a Gen. 1, Gen. 2, or Gen. 3 Switch leader? How does your generation influence your leadership? 

Today, we are talking all about the best tips and tricks for how you can set up portable church successfully.  Even if you aren't having to rent out weekly space to do your youth ministry in a mobile church, some of these tips will be helpful in how you can step up your tech and decor for your current youth room.  For over a decade, our church was renting out a local high school to host our 2 Sunday morning services and our midweek programs were hosted at a completely different building.  Every Sunday, we would have to set everything up and tear everything down and every Tuesday/Wednesday was the same thing.  It was exhausting.  Eventually, we moved into a permanent building, but we will never forget our time of having to do portable church: the lessons learned, the successes, the failures and the appreciation for what we now have.  SHOPPING LIST:TECH:6' Folding Table (You can also check Home Depot, or Walmart for these): https://amzn.to/3ASCBa3PA SystemFender: https://amzn.to/3zWnN93Samson: https://amzn.to/3uqttXVPeavey: https://amzn.to/3m81iJyJBL: https://amzn.to/2Wn5xI6Portable Mini Soundboard: https://amzn.to/39OhiunMini Projector: https://amzn.to/3F5VVTwProjection Screen: https://amzn.to/3F2MPqRStage Lights: https://amzn.to/3EZ03oFFlat Screen TV (sometimes you can get a great price on these during holiday sales, Costco is an option for their returns) : https://amzn.to/3ifoQuUSTAGE:Music Stand: https://amzn.to/3kPD7QAFiddle Leaf Fig: https://amzn.to/3idKwHJBulb Lamp: https://amzn.to/3zWlZgaPipe & Drape: https://amzn.to/3kP0HgmArea Rug (approx. 5'x8') - fit your decorSTORAGE:Storage Bins (quantity depends on how much you need to store): https://amzn.to/2Wm5n3IGAMES:Klask: https://amzn.to/3uvMd8oPing Pong (table not included): https://amzn.to/3B0rbkMAir Hockey: https://amzn.to/3ojQACcFoosball:  https://amzn.to/2ZCuJvvPopular Video Game Consoles:Nintendo Switch: https://amzn.to/3upc8ORPS4 (PS5 preferred if you can afford it): https://amzn.to/3ukxiOcNintendo Wii: https://amzn.to/3kS72rtXBox: https://amzn.to/3umHc1L*DISCLAIMER* These items were listed because of their size/portability/price/brand reputation/reviews.  Before investing into anything, always do your research to see what would work best for YOUR specific situation.  These are meant to be a great starting point, but might not fit every youth group or budget. **This episode is not sponsored. Some of the links are affiliate links which simply means, if you buy something, we will receive a small commission (at no additional cost to you) Thank you!**

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Josh Hunter are joined by Eugene Cho who is the founder and former Senior Pastor of Quest Church. He is now the President-Elect of Bread for the World. He is also an author of several books including his latest Thou Shalt Not Be a Jerk. During their conversation, they discuss the marathon of leadership, the pitfalls of building a platform for the wrong reasons, and Eugene’s journey as an entrepreneur. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 37: “One of the ways that you realize you are a leader isn’t just that you are leading, but that you have others following you as well.” “Leadership is not for the faint of heart.” “I believe leadership is not about perfection. It is about maturity, and one of the best ways I can define maturity is awareness.” “Are we more in love with the idea of changing the world than actually changing the world? ” “When we are talking about changing the world, it is not one, single viral moment. It is about living a trajectory of faithful obedience.” “Personal growth is always greater than platform growth.” “If you are not working on character when no one is looking, when you build an audience and people look at you, they will see no depth and substance.” “We need to be healthy spiritual beings in order to be healthy spiritual leaders.” RESOURCES MENTIONED Emotionally Healthy Leader by Pete Scazzero Overrated by Eugene Cho Thou Shalt Not Be a Jerk by Eugene Cho A Long Obedience in the Same Direction by Eugene Peterson Christ Plays in 10,000 Places by Eugene Peterson Eat This Book by Eugene Peterson The Contemplative Pastor by Eugene Peterson For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Clayton King, is a speaker, author, pastor at NewSpring Church, and founder of Crossroads Ministries. They discuss fulfilling God's call on your life and pursuing friendships. BEST QUOTES "If I'm not communicating on a stage and on a page, then I am not actually fulfilling God's call on my life.""I am going to have to answer to God for what I did with the gifts that He put in me.""This covid season has given us a great opportunity to come together as a team.""I am trying to take inventory of everything in my life that I have been doing and was doing up to the point of the pandemic.""What was I doing that I could not do and not miss that would free up space and capacity in my life to do things that I absolutely cannot live without?""I want to have kids and grandkids that love Jesus, in part, because they saw me love Jesus and they saw me allow Jesus to love me.""In order for me to have a friend, I have to be a friend.""For guys, we have to schedule our lives in ways that we can have close friendships.""Getting up early in the morning has been the secret to my relationship with Jesus, my wife, my kids, and the ability to get things done in ministry that need to be accomplished.""My number one leadership commitment in my home is that we will make these decisions together as a team.""Ultimately we were created for Jesus and ministry is a small blip on the screen of eternity.""If you are too big for the small things, then you are too small for the big things." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Crossroads Summer Camp Clayton King Ministries Reborn by Clayton King Paul: A Biography by N.T. Wright This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins is joined by Daniel Im, former 5LQ cohost and senior associate pastor at Beulah Alliance Church, and Kevin Peck, lead pastor at Austin Stone. They discuss the following questions: What is your best ministry story so far?What has realigning your staff looked like?What are the best practices that have come out of this situation?What tools and frameworks are you using?How important is it for church leaders to stay emotionally healthy? How are you doing that? BEST QUOTES "We have three times as many people in Alpha as we would normally have at this time of year.""Generosity has not stopped and our people, candidly, are leading us as much as we are leading them.""We want people to help in a new digital world that's not digital by preference, but by necessity.""In order to preserve management structures, we took whole teams and assigned them to one of those tasks.""We've seen a lot of energy coming out of people being assigned to do new work for a while.""We started off with the rallying cry of these two phrases: How are we going to be the church? And how are we going to look to Jesus?""Ask one of the accountants in your church to help do some scenario planning.""Go after the things that you know you can do and that you know people need right now.""Are we pushing people toward being more faithful or toward being more consumeristic?""Based on what we saw in the first month, what kind of goals can we have 90 days out?""If I have no reason to go to the church building, there is not reason not to treat my home as one." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Alpha Ministry Grid Slack Asana This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Ben Mandrell are joined by John Eldredge, author of Wild at Heart and Get Your Life Back. They discuss soul care and how technology causes distractions. BEST QUOTES "My attention has been fragmented by the way I work, the way I move, the way I consume media. I want my attention back.""Transformation, human restoration, takes place when you are able to give God your attention.""If we put some boundaries around technology we get to be people again.""The modern pastor has the most ruthless job on the planet.""The human soul is nourished by creation.""Every leadership meeting has some component of waiting for God to lead.""You have to unplug from your world to move into other things.""We are in love with distraction because distraction keeps you from having to look at anything inside.""If you don't take care of your soul, you will dry out. And then you will look for relief." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Wild at Heart by John Eldredge Get Your Life Back by John Eldredge Captivating by John and Stasi Eldredge The Shallows by Nicholas Carr Experiencing God by Henry & Richard Blackaby, Claude King Jesus Calling by Sarah Young One Minute Pause App This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Léonce Crump Jr., pastor of Renovation Church in Atlanta and author of Renovate. They discuss why and when pastor's need to be vulnerable and the fear of failure. BEST QUOTES "Last year was the hardest year, ministerially, of my life.""Your Enneagram is the person you felt you had to become to navigate your world as you were developing.""Last year's conflict forced me into a place of exposure and vulnerability that made me a better leader.""A part of the reason pastor's want to look like they have it all together is because that is the pressure and the expectation.""Ensure that you put yourself in a position in which you can be vulnerable, in which you can be your whole self uncensored.""The people you lead need to know some things so that they know you are both sheep and shepherd.""There are four relationships every ministry leader needs: friend, coach, counselor, pastor.""If we are seeing this as a disruption to be waited out until we can return back to whatever we thought normal was, we are missing it.""I want to fundamentally shift and be a part of fundamentally shifting the way that the church approaches the public square.""There's a lot of risk involved in leadership, and a lot of immobility for fear of failure, but you are going to fail. That does not determine or define the scope, breadth, or depth of your leadership." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus 5LQ Episode 203: Léonce Crump 5LQ Episode 73: Léonce Crump Renovate by Léonce Crump, Jr. Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Peter Scazzero Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life by Donald Whitney Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster Abide App This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Derwin Gray, lead pastor of Transformation Church and author of The Good Life. They discuss leadership as modeling and what true happiness is. BEST QUOTES "Leadership is influencing people to become what you are asking them 'to do.'""You can be a leader without being a disciple, but every disciple has an opportunity to be a leader because you are influencing people to become something.""You can work hard at doing the wrong thing.""The goal of working hard is not accomplishment. Working hard is the goal. That's the reward.""When we lose our life in Christ, that's when we find our lives.""No matter what's happening keep your mind, keep your vision, and adapt.""We want people to know that the church is not the building. The church is the people.""If we dismiss grief, we forfeit growth.""We have looked for happiness in the things that God has created for us to use, and we've actually missed the person who can bring us happiness.""Happiness is not about good things always happening to you, it's about God actually making you good.""Jesus is the only carpenter who can renovate and fix the brokenness in our lives.""As leaders it's important that the rhythm of our home matches what we're saying." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus The Good Life by Derwin Gray TheGoodLifeBook.net CSB Tony Evans Study Bible Paul by N.T. Wright The New Testament in Its World by N.T. Wright The Day The Revolution Began by N.T. Wright This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Josh Hunter are joined by Derwin Gray who is a former NFL football player and the founding and lead pastor of Transformation Church in South Carolina. He is also an author of many books, including his latest The Good Life. During their conversation, they discuss how to learn from failure, how to focus on discipleship more than leadership, and how to find true happiness in Christ. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 37: “Typically where leaders fail is that we delegate tasks instead of delegating responsibility.” “The best teacher is failure.” “I thought pastoring was just getting up and preaching, but it is not. That is about 5% of what I do.” “If you don’t deal with conflict on the front end and it gets toxic, on the back end it’ll be even more expensive and many more people will be hurt.” “Leaders must step into conflict to bring about resolution, to bring about restoration, and to bring about reconciliation.” “The greater we understand the cross and Jesus making peace, the greater that we can be peacemakers.” “In the New Testament, the word leadership is used 3 times and the word disciple is used 269 times. Why don’t we talk about discipleship more?” “Leadership and discipleship are two sides of the same coin. However, you can be a leader without a disciple, but every disciple is called to be a leader.” “Oftentimes we are ambitious for power and status instead of being ambitious for Jesus.” “Happiness is not about what you are getting. Happiness about who you are becoming.”“Wouldn’t it be sad to live a life of effective ministry and be broken hearted at the end of it.” RESOURCES MENTIONED The Good Life by Derwin Gray The Evangelism Linebacker Designed to Lead by Eric Geiger and Kevin Peck On Pastoring by H.B. Charles Jr. Conformed to His Image by Ken Boa Paul by N.T. Wright For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Rasool Berry, teaching pastor and host of "In Pursuit of Jesus." They discuss the mission of the church during the pandemic and why reflecting on the past is useful. BEST QUOTES "What I learned was that Jesus is more glorious and more worthy of worship after I went through this journey than I even had an appreciation of before.""I thought how amazing would it be for us as a church for people to not be able to talk about the COVID-19 pandemic in 2020 without talking about the church's response.""For every hand that you can't shake, that should be a phone call or text that you make.""When we are able to gather and relax these social distancing policies we are always going to make available online our resources.""More than ever, being aware of what's happening in our city, in our nation, around the globe, is just part of what has to happen.""We have most of the New Testament because someone was writing correspondence to someone they could not physically be with.""That tension of intentional time and also intentional distance has been an important balancing act at home.""Reflection, in general, is such an important and under-utilized discipline right now because we live in an information age, but information is not the same as wisdom.""I see sanctification as us allowing God to help us fully realize who He has made us to be, not just simply trying to become more like somebody else." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus In Pursuit of Jesus The Tech-Wise Family by Andy Crouch Essentialism by Greg McKeown This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Ken Costa, a London-based banker, author, and speaker. They discuss the following questions: How does this coronavirus crisis compare to others in the past?How should leaders be using this time to grow personally as a leader and in their relationship with ChristWhat advice would you share with pastors to be prepared financially for what is next?What does good leadership look like in crisis?How would you advise leaders to improve in their flexibility and decision making? BEST QUOTES "There is nothing ordinary about where we are at the moment.""There is an opportunity for the moment for people to stop and reflect.""This whole nature of what is ordinary has never been able to be examined in the stripped down way in which we've been forced to examine it now.""Wherever God finds you and me, He calls us to that place.""This is the moment to be self-investing.""Don't forget that your credit card is theology in numbers.""The most difficult thing for anyone at the moment is that the horizons are being expanded in fear constantly.""We've never been in a place like this, but I honestly think it is God's way of saying I want to draw you back to being an integrated person.""The crisis leader has to be flexible to change as the circumstances change." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Joseph of Arimathea by Ken Costa 5LQ Episode 108: Ken Costa Know Your Why by Ken Costa God At Work by Ken Costa 90 Second Leadership - Leadership When the World is V.U.C.A. 90 Second Leadership - Leading Through Uncertainty This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy is joined by Steve Green who is the President of Hobby Lobby, founder of the Museum of the Bible in Washington, DC, and author of many books including his latest This Beautiful Book which just recently released. During their conversation, they discuss how to build a strong organization, how to lead relationally, and how to see your business as a ministry. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 36: “You lose teaching opportunities when you just do the job yourself.” “No one learns more than the teacher.” “My job is making sure I have good people and that I’m building a strong organization.” “As a leader, you don’t always have to be the expert in the room.” “My nature is more of the doer and I can miss out on relational moments.” “It really became clear to me that not only was I doing ministry at church but the business was a direct ministry.” RESOURCES MENTIONED Museum of the Bible This Beautiful Book by Steve Green Good to Great by Jim Collins Saving My Assassin by Virginia Prodan For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins is joined by Joel Manby, author of Love Works. They discuss the danger in not being completely honest about our mistakes and leading through crisis. BEST QUOTES "None of us should put our self-worth in whether we keep our job as the lead pastor or not.""We have to lead in the short term and think in the short term, but at the same time we have to lead and vision to the future. That's one of the most exhausting things as a top leader.""When I've made the huge mistakes in my life, I haven't been completely truthful.""It never gets better, it only gets worse, if we don't own up to every mistake we make.""The pastor's leading is not more important than what is going on with their children or their home.""This is such a stressful time that we have to take care of ourselves first - eat, sleep, exercise. If we don't do that it causes unhealthy living.""A lack of trustworthiness can cause a meltdown personally because you've taken on too much.""I don't know why we fail to talk about our mistakes when you look at who God used in the Bible." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Love Works by Joel Manby Love Works by Joel Manby Facebook JoelManby.com This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by JT English, pastor and cohost of the Knowing Faith podcast. They discuss how adopting structure in ministry can be beneficial and why deference is an important leadership skill. BEST QUOTES "When you get into ministry or leadership, a lot of what you end up doing relates to your story.""This philosophy of ministry is more scalable than any other philosophy of ministry.""If you adopt a structure and predicable approach to ministry, people will buy in.""I think God does organic things out of structured ministry.""As leaders we are not just called to pick up our preferences and run with them until everybody else submits to them. We are also called to lay our preferences down and learn what deference looks like to others.""In order to lead in a healthy organization, deferring is a leadership instinct that has been lost.""That kind of leadership shows us that the privilege of leading is greater than the pain of leading.""Good leaders know what their weaknesses are and they know the strength of the team around them and they learn how to create systems and operations that allow everybody to operate in their strengths so that everybody thrives.""Leadership is going to hurt, but it's worth it." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Knowing Faith Podcast The Village Church Institute Deep Discipleship by JT English This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Josh Hunter are joined by Ken Costa who is a London-based, internationally renowned banker, author and speaker. He has been the chairman of some of the world’s largest investment banks, advisor to some of the most powerful people in the world, and is a committed Christian who believes Jesus is the hope of the world. During their conversation, they discuss how to view your work, how to understand your calling, and slow down and listen to God. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 35: “I came to realize God was really interested in what I did throughout the week, not just what I did on Sundays.” “You can’t govern the timing of God.” “If you are trying to reach the top and don’t feel called by God to do it, you are going to burn out.” “The great heritage of Christians is that we know our why.” “With COVID-19, it is as if God has said to the world, stop. Reboot, rewire, and rethink.” “You can’t just Google your why and your calling. It is a profound psychological process. We have to cut through the noise.” “The door that God opens, no one can close. And the doors that God closes, no one can open.” “For this generation, we live in a spectrum between broadband and burnout. And at the moment, we were on the verge of people veering toward burnout.” RESOURCES MENTIONED God at Work by Ken Costa Know Your Why by Ken Costa Start with Why by Simon Sinek Atomic Habits by James Clear For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Karen Swallow Prior, professor of English and author of On Reading Well. They discuss how and why we should work on developing our reading skills and being comfortable with other viewpoints to better support our own viewpoints. BEST QUOTES "I think you should take notes, mark in the book, or do something to engage with it and read reflectively. Good writing is not the kind of writing you can skim." "Reading one book well is far better than reading ten to check off your list.""We all have skill levels, whether its reading or listening, and we should be trying to develop those and not get frustrated with ourselves because we aren't where we think we should be.""I really want to understand their point of view so that I can understand and support my own point of view.""We are always thinking in community and hopefully we are part of different thinking communities.""When I see leadership potential or any other type of gifting in my students or colleagues, I want to name that in them and encourage them to pursue it.""All this is about nuancing our ability to see and apply the truth and also to pursue it apart from our comfort zone." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus 5LQ Episode 351: On Reading Well With Karen Swallow Prior On Reading Well by Karen Swallow Prior How to Read a Book by Mortimer Adler Sense and Sensibility: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting by Karen Swallow Prior Heart of Darkness: A Guide to Reading and Reflecting by Karen Swallow Prior This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Nils Smith, from Dunham+Company, and Jason Powell, online pastor for Harvest. They discuss the following questions: What did Easter service look like in your context?How are you following up with people after Easter services?What will church look like post COVID-19 season?Tools for doing online church better BEST QUOTES "I think American is hungry for the gospel. I think this is the perfect time right now to advance the kingdom of God using technology like never before.""If someone in this opportunity clicks a banner and fills out their information, we immediately mail them a Bible.""We call every single person that has made a commitment to follow Jesus Christ for the first three weeks and we will talk to them on the phone and give them encouragement.""Those that are really leaning into this technology and having zoom gatherings are having the depth of community and connection the most effectively.""We've got to be realistic and understanding that there will be an anxiety with physical gatherings.""This isn't new for the church. The church was born out of hardship.""Do you have a phone? Does it have a camera? That is enough. Utilize Facebook." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Church Online Platform Zoom Ministry Grid This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Josh Hunter are joined by Daniel Im who is the Senior Associate Pastor at Beulah Alliance Church, speaker, and author of a few books including his latest You Are What You Do. During their conversation, they discuss navigating transitions, discerning God’s call on your life, and staying focused on the little things. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 34: “We just wanted to get plugged in and be the type of volunteer I would have looked for while on staff at a church.” “When God is moving you, it is like he is a good gardener.” “I loved the number 2 role and the systems side of things.” “We need to be faithful and follow God’s ways by cultivating spiritual practices and being in community.” “Spiritual growth is a lot like sleeping. You can’t cause yourself to sleep, but you can create the conditions in which it will come.” - Richard Foster “Don’t assume every opportunity is from God. It could be a distraction.” “Instead of trying to do great things for God. Let’s just do things for a great God.” “Be faithful with the little things and the big things will come.” RESOURCES MENTIONED You Are What You Do by Daniel Im The Pastor: A Memoir by Eugene Peterson Strengthening the Soul of Your Leadership by Ruth Haley Barton Soul Keeping by John Ortberg For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Jimmy Dykes, sportscaster and author of The Film Doesn't Lie. They discuss how leadership in the sports world applies to all other kinds of leadership and how our words and actions truly reflect God's impact in our lives. BEST QUOTES "From a sports analogy - with coaches and players the real change, the real truth, the real evaluation process begins when they watch a film. I take that same scenario that's used in the sports world and I take us on a spiritual journey throughout the book.""Our walk with God goes to a whole other level when our obedience goes to another level.""I am so blessed to be a part of the ESPN family and that puts me in front of a lot of different people. A lot of coaches are mentors in my life.""If you are a head coach, you have immediate impact - hour to hour - with everyone on your staff, the student athletes you coach, and the actions you lead with speak volumes.""I have a huge platform because of those 4 letters - ESPN - they open a lot of doors for me and because of that I know God has given me a chance to be consistent in who I say He is.""Praying with my wife and daughter is a non-negotiable in my life.""My own quiet time alone with God is crucial right now and letting God speak to my heart about what He wants me to have growth in.""If you are a leader right now in any form, the higher you get the less likely people are to be brutally honest with you at times and the best leaders make sure they have those people around them.""Real lasting change occurs when it comes from the power of God's written Word in our life and letting Him change our heart." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus The Film Doesn't Life by Jimmy Dykes CoachJimmyDykes.com This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Gene Getz, author of 60 books including The Measure of a Man and the Life Essentials Study Bible. They discuss the life-long journey of learning about the pastorate and the importance of encouraging those who we have learned from. BEST QUOTES "People are sheep and they need to be lead, and they will be lead if you have strong leadership.""You've got to keep learning all the time. If you stop learning, you are going to stop growing.""When I started pastoring, being a writer, I determined that if I was going to do a series I would write my sermon as if you were reading it.""Our main point of emphasis right now is how can we stay on top of all of the tasks we have and keep things moving in spite of this shutdown because of the virus.""If communication breaks down, hit it immediately and open the door of communication. That is what keeps us efficient.""Every one of us is built on the shoulders of someone else.""As I look back over my life, every door that has opened for me was opened by someone else and I was able to walk through it with their encouragement." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Elders and Leaders by Gene Getz The Measure of a Man by Gene Getz The Measure of a Healthy Church by Gene Getz Life Essentials Study Bible Sharpening the Focus of the Church by Gene Getz This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Levi Lusko, lead pastor of Fresh Life Church. They discuss how being knowledgeable in areas outside your specialty can benefit your leadership and the unique challenges facing the church during this time. BEST QUOTES "We are only going to be effective in ministry long-term if we can manage ourselves, manage our emotions, and productively minister to people in a way that is life giving.""People that have a wider range than just one discipline will be more likely to explore more options than jump to what they specialize in.""The murky water is how to we execute a clear vision in a dark world?""We have Zoom, we have our Bibles, we have our phones. Let's go.""I have tried to build our home to be a place of Selah for our family.""We are trying to make sure our kids know that their problems and flaws are not ever a problem to me because i am a pastor.""I think the brokenness in the church and so many families and pastors burning out is because of the perceived need to present some sort of lacquered version of what life looks like.""I was so busy wanting to drive the devil out of Montana that I took for granted the call on my life to be intentional about helping other people succeed." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Episode 190: Levi Lusko Through the Eyes of a Lion by Levi Lusko Take Back Your Life by Levi Lusko I Declare War by Levi Lusko The Great Bridge by David McCullough The Path Between the Seas by David McCullough Masters of Scale Podcast A Beautiful Constraint by Adam Morgan and Mark Barden The Fight to Flourish by Jennie Lusko This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Dr. Lina Abujamra, founder of Living With Power Ministries and pediatric ER doctor. They discuss the following questions: What does it look like on the frontlines right now?What do we need to know about COVID-19?What advice would you share about ministering during this time?How long do you think this current COVID season will last? And will there be a second round? BEST QUOTES "The very thing that God had directed me to became the hub of ministry and medicine combining like no other time before.""As New York has grown in its crisis, one of the things that has happened in the rest of the United States is that there has been time to prep.""The easiest way for me to talk about plain, old COVID is the trifecta - fever, shortness of breath, and cough - and sort of a flu-like look.""The fear factor is exponentially increased because of so much mis-information out there and that's dangerous.""Something happens in crisis that makes ministry to people so much easier.""People simply want to be seen, heard, and ministered to.""Look at people as individuals who need Jesus desperately now and be a pastor.""Move into the pastoring role of finding those people and setting up systems of dividing up people so they can be seen one-on-one.""I feel like God has given the church this gift of stripping away those things that were background noise that we have made important in our culture that have distracted us from the main thing which is first vertical: love of God, and second horizontal: love for one another.""This week I felt some deep optimism both about the disease itself and about the future of the church. I believe God is going to bring revival in this season." "No matter where we meet, we know who the church is and we will still be connected in some way." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Living With Power This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Jenaye White are joined by Ian Morgan Cron, author of The Road Back to You. They discuss how the Enneagram helps you become more self-aware and how knowing more about your people makes you a better leader. BEST QUOTES "As I think about the Enneagram and the crisis we are in, it opens up all kinds of opportunities to become the best expressions of ourselves that we can become, to exercise the muscles of compassion and patience and self care.""The Enneagram is a personality typing system that teaches there are nine basic or core personality styles - one of which people gravitate toward and adopt in childhood.""The human ego would like us to believe we know ourselves better than we do and that we are more in control of our lives than we actually are.""The Enneagram helps us see what we are like at our best and at our worst - when we are under a lot of strain and when we are in a good space.""The Enneagram is very simple to learn, it's very hard to master. But you don't need to master it to benefit from it in ways that are incredibly helpful.""The Enneagram can move you along a continuum of self knowledge in a way that is like evolutionary steps forward.""One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to believe that your way of seeing the world is normal." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus IanMorganCron.com @ianmorgancron on Instagram The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron The iEQ9 test Insight by Tasha Eurich A Beautiful Constraint by Adam Morgan and Mark Barden This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Josh Hunter are joined by John Eldredge who is a counselor, a teacher, and an author of  Wild at Heart and his latest book called Get Your Life Back.  During their conversation, they discuss how to handle stress and anxiety, the importance of trust in leadership, and the importance of pausing and slowing down. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 33: “We can want to change the world. But we should enjoy our life while trying to change the world.” “Do real things.” “I don’t check my phone first thing in the morning anymore.” “The average person spends 93% of life indoors.” “We are all faking it to some degree to another.” “We are all broken. What matters is what we do with our brokenness.” “My mistake as a young leader was too much, too fast.” “God is going to do some things in your 20’s that don’t look related to your career or success. But it is shaping your character. And you’re going to want that in your 50.” “God humbles us to exalt us.” “One of the greatest costs of leadership is loneliness. Invite others into it and share the leadership.” RESOURCES MENTIONED Get Your Life Back by John Eldredge Wild at Heart by John Eldredge Captivated by Stasi and John Eldredge Victory Over the Darkness by Neil T. Anderson Smarter, Faster, Better by Charles Duhigg Destiny of the Republic by Candace Millard River of Doubt by Candace Millard Deep Work by Cal Newport  The Shallows by Nicholas Carr The Horse and His Boy by C.S. Lewis The One Minute Pause App For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Justin Murff, director of The MENA Collective. They discuss responding to current COVID-19 circumstances as churches move to digital platforms and focusing on family during challenging ministry times. BEST QUOTES "Are we the kind of church that is making a difference in the life of our community and our city, or are we just occupying space and having a good social gathering on a Sunday morning?""Use the tools that you have at your disposal. Facebook Live is a great tool. Zoom is a great tool.""Your congregation needs to see you. They need to hear you. They don't just need to get an email.""We are facing, for the first time in our country's history, we most likely will not be able to gather as a church to celebrate Easter. That is profound.""When we think about digital church it is going to expand some of our boundaries, particularly when we talk about our ordinances or sacraments." "Use what you have, think through it, and use your tradition to best of your ability. We may see God do something completely new.""Take you Sunday School classes into Facebook Groups. Use those opportunities and those technologies that are there.""This is a great opportunity to onboard and recruit that army of digital natives that are in your church that have been there honestly thinking, 'Do I even belong here? Where is my place to serve?'" RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus The MENA Collective The African Memory of Mark by Thomas C. Oden Blue Ocean Strategy by W. Chan Kim and Reneee Mauborgne This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

Livestreaming Best Practices With church going online, Kevin reminded us that “churches are all equalized now; they're just a click away.” Your church now has the same tools to bring content to your people as every other church out there.  Even so, with the church entering the digital realm like never before, there is a […]

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Tim Keller, founding pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in Manhattan and author of The Reason for God, The Prodigal God, and the How to Find God Series. They discuss how lessons learned while serving in New York City after 9/11 can be helpful in response to the current COVID-19 situation. BEST QUOTES "Right now, a lot of our cultural idols are being smashed.""How do we minimize the damage of this situation to our ministries and also how do we capitalize on the situation to minister?""This is not like the 2008 recession. This is not like 9/11 in New York City. These are all somewhat unique, but they are all cataclysmic.""After 9/11, we knew that 14,000 small business went away overnight and all the people that worked their lost their livelihood. We put out word that if you could prove you worked there we could help.""It's going to take time, but be looking for ways to step in and if you are praying for it, the Lord will show them to you." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus The Reason for God by Tim Keller The Prodigal God by Tim Keller Counterfeit Gods by Tim Keller On Birth: How to Find God #1 by Timothy Keller On Marriage: How to Find God #2 by Timothy Keller and Kathy Keller On Death: How to Find God #3 by Timothy Keller TimothyKeller.com GospelInLife.com Living by Faith in Troubled Times The Triumph of the Therapeutic by Philip Rieff Sources of the Self by Charles Taylor A Secular Age by Charles Taylor Habits of the Heart by Robert Bellah After Virtue by Alasdair MacIntyre Whose Justice? Which Rationality? by Alasdair MacIntyre How to Read a Book by Mortimer Adler Marxism and Morality by Steven Lukes The Meaning of Marriage by Timothy Keller with Kathy Keller Jesus, Justice, and Gender Roles by Kathy Keller Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Todd McMichen, director of Generosity by LifeWay. They discuss the following questions: What do I say on Sunday?How can you communicate this throughout the week?How can pastors lead their people to live a generous life during this time?What do I do if giving starts to tank?How do we help people have a good experience giving online?During this season, how should churches handle benevolence? BEST QUOTES "We have to settle into this new world and help people see the mission of the church.""Lead with a generosity story of how someone in your church is living generously right now.""If you can give a positive word about your finances, that would be good to do.""Because life is so challenging right now and there are so many distractions, giving to the church is the last thing on their mind.""On Sunday when you refer to the offering you only need to refer to one way to give digitally to keep it simple.""There are lots of ways to take up an offering during the week.""The offering is more important to a human being's faith than it is to a church's budget.""The church is going to have lower resources and it is going to have an increased benevolence need.""The biggest ministry in this season may be a church down the street that you need to lock arms with.""A simple online form that eliminates every conflict you can is what you need to start with for digital giving." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network LifeWay Generosity LifeWayGenerosity.com/CoronaVirus LifeWay.com/CoronaVirus Church Giving Group on Facebook This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Brad Lomenick, past Catalyst leader and author of H3 Leadership and The Catalyst Leader. They discuss the following questions: Who or what has been the greatest leadership influence in your life?What is your favorite leadership failure story?What book would you gift yourself as a young leader?If you could teach a course on any topic, what would it be?What advice would you give a student about the real world of leadership and ministry? What common things should they ignore? BEST QUOTES "Networking is all about you, connecting is all about others.""As a connector, my job is to put people together and let the power of the connection be built between them.""The person of Jesus and the people of the Scriptures I think are true connectors.""If you are a leader, a parent, or train horses, there are so many similarities.""You need to be aware of your passions, but you have to combine strengths and passions with an undergirding of the Holy Spirit.""This whole premise that we can do anything in life is true, but is it biblical or smart?""The reason I ended up doing the things I've done is because of the people I was around.""Figure out whatever your area of deficiency is and lean into that." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network Unseen Leadership Podcast H3 Leadership by Brad Lomenick The Catalyst Leader by Brad Lomenick Spiritual Leadership by J. Oswald Sanders Next Generation Leader by Andy Stanley Dangerous Calling by Paul David Tripp Good to Great by Jim Collins This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins is joined by Daniel Im, former cohost of 5LQ, Senior Associate Pastor at Beulah Alliance Church, and author of You Are What You Do. They discuss the following questions: How do you deal with past regrets?Is the process of journaling regrets supposed to be individual, or with someone? And if it is with someone, who?How can this lie disable or destroy your future?How does this lie fit into the gig economy?What's your advice for leaders who still have things from their past they need to deal with? BEST QUOTES "The past is not just about the things that you have done, the past is also about what others have done to you.""Reflecting on both what you have done and what others have done to you will help you assess the extent to which your past affects your present.""There's a lot of junk and pain that we experience because we work with broken people.""Is what I am doing right now a reaction to something in the past or am I living the way I am living out of freedom and intentionality?""If we don't deal with our past, it can disable or destroy our future.""The grip of these lies is only going to grow stronger as long as we keep them buried underneath the surface.""What are ways that you can come to terms about the lie you are dealing with?""Bring your issues to the surface between you and Him and let Jesus tell you what the next steps are." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network You Are What You Do by Daniel Im How to Ruin Your Life by Eric Geiger 7 Lies The World Tells Us, 7 Biblical Truths That God Tells Us - YouVersion Bible Reading Plan This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Jenaye White are joined by Ellie Holcomb who is a Dove award-winning singer/songwriter and author of two children’s books titled Who Sang the First Song, and her brand new kids book Don't Forget to Remember, available now. During their conversation, they discuss how to lead with authenticity, how the creative process works, and how God’s plans are better than our own. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 32: “Music is a bridge builder. There is something about music that connects our story to someone else’s story, even if it is very different.” “I’ve had to learn to be who I am and to own my own story and to own my own pain.” “God didn’t come to make bad people good people. He came to make dead people alive people.” “Don’t let fear dictate your decision making and pay attention to what makes your heart beat fast and come alive.” “When I feel like I’m leading well, it is usually from a place of vulnerability and owning what I’m not good at.” RESOURCES MENTIONED Don't Forget to Remember by Ellie Holcomb Who Sang the First Song by Ellie Holcomb The Road Back to You by Ian Morgan Cron The Gifts of Imperfection by Brené Brown Rising Strong by Brené Brown For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Joshua Gagnon, the founding and lead pastor of Next Level Church. They discuss starting a church in a difficult situation and navigating being an organization that is stable and agile. BEST QUOTES "We are excited that that started where nobody would have thought a movement of God could start.""Looking back, God prepared me to lead Next Level Church, but it wasn't in a church environment.""We have to have people walking alongside of us as sidekicks that are sweating with us in our pursuit of what we hope to become.""Heroes are simply people who are living the life now that we hope to someday live.""Let's keep the grit, passion, and great expectation for God to do great things, but in the end let's go ahead and surrender our expectations.""One of the dangers of the church world is the lack of grit and resolve. When we face resistance we often want to back down from it.""A vision statement is pointless outside of a culture that can carry it.""I believe high-impact moments over a long stretch are way more valuable than low-impact moments over a long stretch.""I was so guilty of hoping for fast results, but I've learned that fast results are not always sustainable or achievable." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network Next Level Church It's Not Over by Joshua Gagnon This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins is joined by Daniel Im, former cohost of 5LQ, Senior Associate Pastor at Beulah Alliance Church, and author of You Are What You Do. They discuss the following questions: What do you mean by the saying that experiences are better than things?What's the shadow side of the lie that you are what you experience?Do you address anything about how experience economy has shifted us from ownership-minded to access-minded?How are we seeing the idea of experience come into the church? BEST QUOTES "Experiences create more memories and for us, as a culture, we are spending more money on experiences than things.""Experience is everywhere you look, even in the way our culture is trying to sell products." "If you take a photo of a thing, you are never going to get as many likes as if you take a picture of yourself in an experience." "Influencer marketing is being driven by narcissism.""Envy and jealousy stirs up in our heart when we see an experience, not just when we see a thing.""The problem with believing you are what you experience is that the odds are stacked against us because it is impossible not to compare.""In the church, you don't want to fuel comparison and envy the way that marketers do.""You want connection, community, and interactions to happen within the church." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network You Are What You Do by Daniel Im The Experience Economy by Joseph Pine and James Gilmore 5LQ Episode 344: The Power of Moments Book Breakdown New Churches Q&A Podcast This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Josh Hunter are joined by Joshua Gagnon who is the founding and Lead Pastor of Next Level Church, which is one of the fastest growing churches in America and the author of his new book It’s Not Over. During their conversation, they discuss how to leading by asking good questions, building culture, and pursuing your dreams in a Godly way. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 31: “No one wants to listen to a young leader full of pride or thinks they know it all. They want to listen to a young leader who is submitted and full of honor.” “Older leaders don’t mind young leaders who ask good questions that lead to better results.” “I wanted to start a church where my friends would want to go.” “I had to learn to lead like a father rather than a brother.” “Emotions in the moment compromise the integrity you want to walk with.” “We have to be prepared to lead the moment, and often times we have not prepared our hearts to lead the moments we are stepping into.” “Leadership breaks down when we are not prepared to lead in a specific moment.” “If I’m moving the ball forward in an organization but not developing leaders for forward movement, that is going to create a lot of tension and roadblocks.” “Wait until the morning to handle conflict and make big decisions.” “Culture is what matters. Everyone talks about vision. But everybody has a vision. Tell me about the culture that supports the vision, and I’ll tell you if your vision is going to amount to anything.” “We often expect way too much out of the immediate and not enough over the ultimate.” “God will be fruitful. Our job is to be faithful at taking each piece in each season so that someday we’ll see our dream fulfilled.” “The fake me might get me further for the short term, but the real me will take me further over the course of a lifetime. I want to be real and allow people to get scary close.” RESOURCES MENTIONED It’s Not Over by Joshua Gagnon Red Zone, Blue Zone by James Osterhaus, Joseph Jurkowski, and Todd Hahn Tale of Three Kings by Gene Edwards Scary Close by Donald Miller For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by D.A. Horton, Pastor of Reach Fellowship in Long Beach, California. They discuss being engaged in a deep accountability relationship and transparency in difficult situations in your life. BEST QUOTES "Learning church history will help believers understand how the church contextualized the nuances of the great commission where they lived in the time that they lived in.""It's the idols of comfort, personal peace, and self-preference that we have to combat, confess, and then destroy in order to be freed up.""It's through that fire that we have melded together meaningful relationships that you cannot communicate in a prospectus.""Scars are a representation that healing is possible through Jesus Christ and His local church.""It's in community that the Scriptures come to life.""If we have truly trusted Christ to save our soul, then He will also provide for the physical needs we have.""Praying to the Lord privately is a key discipline that has flourished my walk with the Lord.""If I'm not leading my wife well in humility, brokenness, and honesty and decision making, it's all for naught.""Arguably the best advice I ever received was there are are three areas in your life you need to passionately pursue: purity in your doctrine, purity in your sexuality, and purity in your finances." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network A Gospel for the Poor by David C. Kirkpatrick Global Gospel by Douglas Jacobson Evangelism in the Early Church by Michael Green This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins is joined by Daniel Im, former cohost of 5LQ, Senior Associate Pastor at Beulah Alliance Church, and author of You Are What You Do. They discuss the following questions: What is the greatest lie that leaders believe?How is this lie affecting the church?How has this continued to shift in culture? We have both experienced the tragedy of a fall. How does that happen?How do you come back from this? BEST QUOTES "'You Are What You Do' is the greatest lie that leaders believe.""Every single one of these lies is likely more appealing to one of the Enneagram numbers than not.""Doing has become a badge of honor. It has become a status symbol and the way to define ourselves.""Books have become the new business card.""Is your identity on the things that you do, have done, and are going to do? Or on what Jesus has done for you? And is that enough?""Ephesians 2:8-9 is what Christ has done for us, and doing is a response in verse 10.""There are three unintended consequences when we believe this lie that we are what we do.""Platforms in and of themselves are neutral, but the problem is that desiring for and building your life on getting that platform often opens the door to a compartmentalized life.""The problem with pretending is it always leads to anxiety.""That divide between your inner and outer life continues to grow until you just can't hold it anymore and that's where we see implosions happen.""It was in the desert that God shaped David's character, deepened his prayer life, and made him into the man he was." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network You Are What You Do by Daniel Im How to Ruin Your Life by Eric Geiger This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Josh Hunter are joined by Shannon Miles who is the Co-Founder and Co-Chair of Belay Solutions, a Virtual Assistant Company. During their conversation, they discuss how to take calculated risks, how to lead others with empathy, and how to lead remote teams. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 30: “When your desperation exceeds your embarrassment, you will make a change.” “I had to learn to stop applying my desires and ambitions to those I was trying to lead.” “Not everyone is like you, and not everybody can be lead the same way.” “You have to actually understand and know those you are leading.” “A leader can lose credibility simply in the language that they use.” “People will rarely remember what you say but they will remember how you make them feel.” “If we had not taken the risk, we would have had regret.” “The safest thing for us sometimes is to take risks.” “I don’t think there has ever been a better time to start a business.” “Always be looking to replace yourself.” RESOURCES MENTIONED Good to Great by Jim Collins This is Marketing by Seth Godin Purple Cow by Seth Godin Deep Work by Cal Newport Talking with Strangers by Macolm Gladwell Overcast Podcast App The Podcast App For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins is joined by John Mark Comer, author of The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. They discuss what he learned from writing his book and living an unhurried life. BEST QUOTES "Once you discover Truth and wisdom you are tapping into God's design and intention for the universe.""In my experience, you have to exegete the cultural narrative as much as you exegete the biblical narrative and point people to Jesus and His gospel.""Knowing the exegesis of a text is different than actually becoming the kind of person with the capacity to do what the text says.""Now I think about a sermon through a Venn diagram of three parts: biblical theology, spiritual formation, and cultural commentary.""How do we live an unhurried life and focus on sabbath and soul care without getting into introspective, introverted self-improvement for Jesus?""Hurry and burnout are coming for everybody.""Because of the digital age, there are all sorts of Type B people who are still way over busy, hurried, and stressed out.""Shifting my morning to having to read for an hour before touching my phone has had a profound effect.""I would like to tell my 20-year-old self to go discover the practice and joy and art and need of sabbath." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer This Cultural Moment Podcast Facing Leviathin by Mark Sayers JohnMarkComer.com Essentialism by Greg McKeown Deep Work by Cal Newport Why Liberalism Failed by Patrick Deneen The Disappearance of Moral Knowledge by Dallas Willard This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins is joined by Daniel Im, former cohost of 5LQ, Senior Associate Pastor at Beulah Alliance Church, and author of You Are What You Do. They discuss the following questions: How prevalent is the gig economy and how has it grown?How is the gig economy affecting the church?How is the gig economy beneficial and what are ways people can participate?How does the gig economy change the way we hire? BEST QUOTES "The book started out from a talk I gave to leaders and pastors about how the gig economy is affecting churches.""The broadest way to define the gig economy is being self-employed in a part-time or full-time capacity and if you get paid for your time, skills, possessions, or expertise.""In 2019, 35% of the American workforce was a part of the gig economy.""If you aren't a part of the gig economy, you are funding it.""When you look at the research, about 68% of all gig workers joined the gig economy in the last 5 years,""The gig economy's number one promise is a life of control.""People have less discretionary time to give and to serve because they are using that time to work and make money instead.""The seven lies in the book fund and fuel and come together with the core lie of the gig economy - a life with ultimate freedom and flexibility." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network You Are What You Do: And Six Other Lies About Work, Life, and Love by Daniel Im ImBetween Podcast Morning and Evening with Charles Spurgeon Podcast Trends.google.com This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Josh Hunter are joined by Andrew Peterson who is an award-winning sing-songwriter, creator of The Rabbit Room, and author of the Wingfeather Saga and his latest book Adorning the Dark. During their conversation, they discuss how to distinguish between pride and ambition, how to tell the difference between leadership and false influence, and how to lead as a creative. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 29: “There is no recipe for success. The best advice I can give to young leaders is say yes, keep working on your craft, and be available.” “Everything that I tried to make happen on my own, ended in a dead end.” “If your ambition is to leave a legacy, what you’ll leave a legacy of ambition.” - Rich Mullins “Your motives are never going to be perfectly pure, so don’t let that stop you from doing good work, but listen to the Spirit saying careful.” “You need to go to church with people who are not impressed with you.” “Knowing that you are not alone and that your struggles are familiar to other people is so helpful.” “A good thing can be a bad thing for us if that is not what God has given us to do.” “If you are honestly reading Scripture, it is almost impossible to get arrogant.” RESOURCES MENTIONED Adorning the Dark by Andrew Peterson Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott Walking on Water by Madeleine L'Engle Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning Deep Work by Cal Newport The Lion’s Gate by Steven Pressfield For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

In this episode of the 5 Leadership Questions podcast, Todd Adkins and Chandler Vannoy are joined by Barnabas Piper, former cohost of 5LQ, current director for community at Immanuel Nashville, and author of Help My Unbelief. They discuss the following questions: What is one thing you’ve read recently?What is one thing you’ve listened to recently?What is one tool or resource you’ve started using recently?Who is one person who has influenced you recently?What is one lesson you have learned recently? BEST QUOTES "Everyone thinks it's the abundance of resources that are the answer to the golden tomorrow, and really it's more about what you stop and clarify.""I have found the Community Bible Reading Journal really helpful in terms of slowing down to think through text that normally I would have read over quickly.""One thing I've noticed after moving from LifeWay into church ministry is the way I have gravitated to learning from people who are 20 to 30 years ahead of me in ministry or in faith.""The biggest shift for me is that publishing is not a people-oriented job, it's a production-oriented job; and the church is entirely people-oriented.""I wish churches understood more the number of people at LifeWay who are really dedicated to churches.""What I am learning is that our culture is saying hustle and fill up your calendar, but they are saying it's OK to take Sabbath and rest.""Grinding doesn't always lead to greater success, but having a good work ethic and being a hard worker is always a necessity.""We really connected around intentionality and I haven't stopped thinking about it since.""I'm going to try to read less books and take notes on them to slow down and process what I'm reading." RECOMMENDED RESOURCES LifeWay Leadership Podcast Network Living Life Backwards by David Gibson The Message of Ecclesiastes by Derek Kidner On Reading Well by Karen Swallow Prior Deep Work by Cal Newport Leadership in Turbulent Times by Doris Kearns Goodwin Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin What If by Robert Cowley Educated by Tara Westover Hillbilly Elegy by J.D. Vance A Beautiful Constraint by Adam Morgan and Mark Barden 1865 Business Wars Manhunt by James L. Swanson Brave Browser Chick-Fil-A App WhatsApp Church Community Builder The Community Bible Reading Journal Atomic Habits by James Clear Day One Journal App Strong Workout App The Emotionally Healthy Leader by Pete Scazerro 5LQ With John Mark Comer - Coming Soon! Help My Unbelief Study by Barnabas Piper Help My Unbelief by Barnabas Piper This episode's sponsor: For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. They design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams.

In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Josh Hunter are joined by Kara Powell who is the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute and a faculty member at Fuller Theological Seminary. She’s also the author of Sticky Faith, Growing Young, and a brand new high school curriculum titled Faith in an Anxious World. During their conversation, they discuss affirming leadership in others, when to pursue higher education and seminary, and how to handle anxiety and depression in the church. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 28: “Little by little we travel far” - J.R.R. Tolkien “If you want to read more, always keep a book with you.” “I wish I would have talked more freely about God with young people.” “It is easy to judge my day based upon how much I cross off my to do list. Instead, I’m constantly trying to reorient my compass to say my day is based on how well I loved God and how much I loved others as my self.” “One of the biggest mistakes we can make when it comes to anxiety and depression is simply not talking about it enough.” “My concern with personality tests is that it becomes our excuse to not grow.” RESOURCES MENTIONED Faith in an Anxious World curriculum Measure What Matters by John Doerr For more than 25 years, Portable Church® has helped thousands of churches launch strong and thrive in a mobile setting. We design custom solutions that fit each budget, vision, and venue. Everything you need to launch a mobile church — an inviting worship space, kids ministry areas, welcome spaces, storage cases, etc — all in a system refined to make it fast, easy & fun for the weekly volunteer teams. See what this looks like by visiting portablechurch.com/lifeway.

You know God's calling on your life. You're on the path and boldly stepping forward toward the vision He has provided, but internally you're struggling with feelings of anxiety, frustration, and inadequacy. Sound familiar? It's easy to compare our start with someone else's middle or end, but God has a plan in all of the seasons of leadership. In today's episode, Carter discusses with Pastor Mark Albrecht of NorthBridge Church his personal experience persevering through the two key seasons of leadership.Love the Bible Leadership Podcast? Consider becoming a Patron for as little as $3 per month!

#NewLifestyle #dancemeditation #gui #Mustafa

Portable church audio, video, and lighting can be a beast of production work each week. Load it all in, pack it all away, and hope everything in between goes smoothly. On episode 32 of the podcast, Chris Huff and Brian Gowing discuss the biggest mistakes made in each of those areas - audio, video, and lighting, and how to overcome them. They also announce the new Guide to Portable Church AVL. Resources: The New Portable Church AVL Guide (Bundled)

Thanks for coming back for this week's episode of the unSeminary podcast. I'm honored to have Jeff Beachum of Portable Church Industries with us today. PCI helps churches go portable. Portable Church started one day when a portable church was struggling in a middle school setting. Finally one of the pastors went to a volunteer, […]

[Recorded live at Exponential] One of the most critical decisions a church planter has to make in its early years is when to purchase a permanent location. Church planting leaders Lee Stephenson and Danny Parmelee discuss their experiences moving from portable to permanent, along with the possible positives and negatives that come with the move. 0:33 - Lee talks about the transitioning aspect of moving from portable to permanent 1:16 - Danny shares about his experience of moving from portable to permanent and vice versa 2:01 - Lee talks about his experience of purchasing a property after being in a portable location for three years 3:04 - Lee shares about one of the most critical decisions a church plant has to make in its early years of ministry. When do we buy a building? 3:48 - Lee and Danny talk about the importance of establishing your church before buying a building and not putting too much emphasis on the building itself 4:59 - Danny and Lee discuss the advantages of being portable (financial, freedom to move) 6:32 - Danny and Lee talk about how moving to a permanent location won't solve all of your problems 7:34 - Danny and Lee talk about helping volunteers stay connected after you move from portable to permanent 10:28 - Lee cautions that even though moving from portable to permanent is a positive change, you're still going to lose people 11:49 - Danny shares about how God's timing was perfect in his church's move from portable to permanent 14:14 - Danny talks about the challenges of finding a location in an urban environment 15:14 - Lee talks about how you never know how God is going to open doors when the timing is right 18:43 - Lee likens the move from portable to permanent to a surfer riding a wave. The challenge is: Are you a surfer who can ride that wave? Are you ready? 19:26 - Danny says that if your church is not healthy in a portable location, moving to a permanent location will only magnify those problems 21:02 - Danny talks about the process of purchasing their first permanent building 24:02 - Lee talks about the growth spurt his church experienced after moving to a permanent location and the challenges that presented 24:28 - Lee gives six signs that you're ready to ride the wave generated from moving to a permanent facility 29:14 - Lee and Danny share about some problems/challenges (expected/unexpected) that are created by moving to a permanent building 40:07 - Danny recommends that church planters who are looking for a permanent facility contact the Converge Cornerstone Fund 41:20 - Q&A: "Could you share about some of your failures?" 47:40 - Q&A: "How you do you balance taking the plunge to get ready for taking on more but making sure you have a good enough system in place to handle incoming growth?" 51:00 - Q&A: "Is there a certain amount of money or a percentage that is healthy for a church to borrow when moving to permanent?"

2016/09/08 ~ Steve and Phil talk with Kevin Jones from Portable Church about solutions for church planters and multi-site churches.

2016/09/08 ~ Steve and Phil talk with Kevin Jones from Portable Church about solutions for church planters and multi-site churches.

2016/09/08 ~ Steve and Phil talk with Kevin Jones from Portable Church about solutions for church planters and multi-site churches.

10/9/11 Pastor Mark & Pastor Jeremy utilize our 1st preview service to talk about the 1st Portable Church in the Bible. Canton Church, in Canton, GA, features live teaching from Pastor Jeremy Isaacs and others. Our desire is that as a result of these messages, you would be challenged and changed. You can find out more about our church and the ministries that we offer by visiting www.CantonChurch.com or Facebook.com/CantonChurchGA

How fast can you set up tear down and have a your church gathering? This week we talk about being a an ultra portable church and what it takes to make this happen. From the right gear to being creative with cheap home improvement stuff, we got some ideas to make your life easier. Also we got a great motion loop freebie via, the creativemyk.