Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Taraba

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: [00:00:00] was Luther King jr. right? Does love have the power to turn an enemy into a friend. We’re creating an inspiring documentary called Courage to Love The Power of Compassion, which explores extraordinary stories of those who have chosen to do the unthinkable, love and forgive even those who are deeply hurtful. Gissele: Through their journeys, we will uncover the profound impact of forgiveness and love, not only on those offering it, but also receiving it. In addition, we’ll hear from experts who will explore where the love and compassion are part of our human nature, and how we can bridge divides with those we disagree with. Gissele: If you’d like to support our film, please go to www M-A-I-T-R-E-C-E-N-T-R e.com/documentary. It’s mitre center.com/documentary Hello and welcome to The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. [00:01:00] Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking about self-compassion in teenagers. And my guest is Dr. Gissele: Karen Bluth, who’s an associate professor emerita at the University of North Carolina, where she studies how mindful self-compassion improves the mental health of teens and young adults. She’s the author of five books for teens and caregivers, including The Self-Compassion Workbook for Teens and Mindful Self-Compassion for Teens in Schools. Gissele: In addition, she’s a 2022 recipient of the Inaugural Mind and Life Foundation Award for Public Communication of Contemplative Research. Yay. As a mindfulness practitioner for over 45 years, a mindfulness teacher and an educator with over 18 years of classroom teaching experience, Dr. Bluth frequently gives, talks conducts workshops, and teaches classes in self-compassion in educational and community settings and trains [00:02:00] teachers in mindful self-compassion for teens internationally. Gissele: Please join me in welcoming Dr. Karen Bluth. Hi, Karen. Karen: Hi. It’s well. It’s my pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. Gissele: Oh, thank you so much for coming. I think this is a topic that it’s definitely needs to be discussed, and as a mother of two teens, I know the need for self-compassion. I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about how you got started in this work. Karen: Sure. Well it really takes me back to my teen years. I was in high school, it, I was a senior in high school. It was 1975 and I needed. A topic for an independent study project that I had to do for my English class. and it was due the next day. I was driving down the road. I didn’t have my topic of course. Karen: I was driving down the road and outta the corner of my eye, I saw a sign that said something about meditation. Tm at that ti at that time it was transcendental meditation. It still [00:03:00] is actually, but I remembered hearing something about meditation in a different class in my social studies class. And there was something about it when we talked about it in that social studies class that resonated with me. Karen: And I remember thinking, Hmm, that makes sense. So when I saw that sign out of the corner of my eye, I thought, oh, well, let me check this out. So I pulled in. It was this old house I remember, and I went in and I picked up some brochures about transcendental meditation. And talked to the people there and they said, well if you want to be initiated, and I think that was the word they used, come back Saturday at 10 o’clock, I think they said, bring flowers and a piece of fruit. Karen: So it sounded very mysterious to me, but I did, I went back and, and was given a mantra at that time, and that was the beginning of my meditation practice. And you know, I practiced for my senior year in high school. I think when I went to college, it kind of fell away [00:04:00] for a couple of years. And then I got back into it after college and have been practicing meditation, mindfulness since you know, probably the mid eighties. Karen: Regularly. It’s been a cornerstone, an anchor throughout my entire adult life. As I’m sure as I’m sure you know, it has been for, for many people. I, I was very lucky to start early on. And then sometime in the nineties I had little kids and so I spent a fair amount of time in my car with them, in their car seats, trying to get them to nap because they wouldn’t nap at home. Karen: Yeah, I imagine there’s a lot of people that, that resonate with this. And so I had a cassette tape at that time. That’s what we used in our cars of poetry of self-compassion read by the British poet, David White. And this cassette tape had been passed around my meditation group [00:05:00] and so I had this copy and I listened to these poems and. Karen: I think I internalized the message a lot because it was in my car stereo for quite some time. And so this message of self-compassion became really integrated into into, you know, how I spoke to myself. And then about a decade later, I decided to go back to school and get my PhD and I wanted to bring together the different threads of my life. Karen: So that was my personal life, my mindfulness practice Gissele: mm-hmm. Karen: And this whole time I was, I was teaching in schools. I was a teacher and middle school and upper elementary school, fifth grade, mostly also younger grades, but mostly fifth grade and middle school. And so youth and, and, and being with youth and. Karen: Wanting to improve the lives of youth was [00:06:00] really very central to me and my mission actually. And so I, when, when I went back to school in 2008, I wanted to bring together these different threats of my life, my personal mindfulness practice, and my interest in helping youth. And at that time, it was just a few years after Kristen Neff was publishing her work. Karen: So her first articles, research articles on self-compassion came out in 2003. And so this was five years later. There wasn’t that much published at that time and nothing with teens. And so that’s when I just started diving into the work at that point. So that’s a long, a long story really, but that’s really how, how I came to where I am now. Gissele: It’s wonderful. I love that as the teen, you, it’s like, okay, well I’m gonna be initiated here. I’ll show up with my stuff. Karen: It was like, why not? You know? It was 1975. I was like, you know, whatever. It sounds a little weird. Fruit and flowers and [00:07:00] a mantra, but whatever, you know? Gissele: Mm. Yeah. That’s lovely. I do Kriya yoga and so there, there is like an initiation part of the, the component too, and there’s like the offering. Gissele: So yeah, that I resonated with that. I’m interested to to know what the receptivity is of young people towards self-compassion. And the reason why I ask that is as, as a mother of two teenagers, I know that when I, you know, I emphasized to them the importance of meditation, the importance of loving yourself. Gissele: They understand it, but they don’t always wanna practice what I’m doing. And so they wanna find their own path to loving themselves and being compassionate to themselves. What has been the reception of young people? When you show up to schools Karen: Yeah, of course, of course. So yeah, it’s interesting. Karen: So I hear from parents a lot that there’s, and this is actually, you know, this is the job of teens, is to resist what comes from parents. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: And find their own way, as you said. So this is not [00:08:00] not only is it not a bad thing, it’s actually a good thing that they’re a little bit resistant, a little bit of, Hmm. Karen: I don’t wanna just like take on what you’re handing me. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: So what is the reception? It depends who it’s coming from. So again, if it’s coming from a parent, of course it varies. It depends on the relationship between the parent and the kid. But usually, and I’m making a generalization here, there is Karen: A little bit of resistance, a little bit too, you know, maybe a little bit more than a little bit of resistance. Generally after the first class teens if we don’t push them and we don’t, you know, we, it’s always an invitation to participate in these classes. we’re not heavy handed about it. Karen: We don’t require them. Not that you could anyway, you can’t require somebody to do these practices, right? Gissele: Yeah. Karen: We just invite them in, but we don’t you know, we’re not heavy handed. We invite them in and if [00:09:00] we approach it that way the resistance decreases a lot. And you know, the teens might be quiet, but they’re taking it in. Karen: And I have to tell you that. I cannot tell you how many times I’ve heard from teens at the end of a class teens will pull me aside and say something like, you know, this was really my mom’s idea to take this class, or, this was my therapist’s idea. I didn’t really wanna do it, but I’m so glad I did. Karen: I frequently hear that. You know, this is the nature of the beast, you know, this is what, this is what teens are supposed to be doing. They’re supposed to be questioning, they’re supposed to be particularly questioning what comes on, you know, what the adults around them are saying to them. Gissele: I agree with you. I think it’s a developmental stage, right? Because we’re constantly trying to improve, what our parents did be better, be different, if we only just accepted the status quo , I don’t think there’d be progress . I’m curious [00:10:00] as to what some of the outcomes you have seen What are some of the things that you have found have helped, maybe some of the things that maybe weren’t as successful? Karen: Yeah. So well first of all, we know from research that teens who are more self-compassionate experience less depression, anxiety, and stress. For example, we know that as teens progress through adolescence, they tend to become more depressed. Karen: And that’s mostly driven by females. And that, that when teens are more self-compassionate, they’re less likely to get depressed as they move through the teen years. So we see that. We also know that stress is linked to depression, but we know that teens who are more self-compassionate, when they’re stressed, they’re less likely to be depressed. Karen: We also know that depression is linked to self-injury non-suicidal self-injury, things like cutting. But teens who are more self-compassionate are less likely to [00:11:00] self-injure when they’re depressed. so we see across many studies in many different places all over the world, we see that self-compassion actually acts as a protective factor or a buffer against. Karen: Some of these difficult challenges in the teen years. And we also know when we actually teach teens self-compassion through these different through our mindful self-compassion for teens course and workshops and things like that, we see that teens at the end experience less depression than they did at the beginning. Karen: Less anxiety, less stress. And in our most recent study with teens who had some suicidal ideation going in, that they had significantly less suicidal ideation at the end of the study. Gissele: That’s really, really powerful. I just wanted to clarify. You said driven by females? Gissele: Does that mean that it’s mostly young girls who are experiencing the [00:12:00] depression? Karen: I. Well, what we see is that as girls move from age 11 or 12 to 18 generally they become of course it’s generalization, but overall teen girls become more depressed and by the time they’re 18 or so, 18 or 19, they are twice as likely to be depressed as males of the same age. Karen: And that statistics stays the same stable through adulthood. So, you know, adult women are generally twice as likely to be depressed as adult men. That doesn’t mean that that boys or men aren’t struggling also they are. It’s just that their way of expressing their discontent, dissatisfaction, unhappiness is not through depression. Karen: It’s through other means. Usually external. Usually things like anger comes [00:13:00] out with anger. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. In this world of COVID, we have young people being more isolated and lonely and with all the school shootings that have happened in America in particular not as much in Canada I’m curious as to the impact of self-compassion on improving relationships for young people. Gissele: Does self-compassion work help them in terms of relationships with one another? Karen: Yeah. Well, we do see we do have a study with young adults that shows and these, these were 18 through 30 that shows decrease in loneliness when these young adults were more self-compassionate. I think what we’re seeing it overall is that obviously through COVID, there’s a lot of isolation, loneliness a lot more turning to social media, turning to technology now, AI and, what [00:14:00] social media does unfortunately is exacerbate this sense of comparing oneself with others, right? Mm-hmm. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: And of course, even though we all know, including teens, that what’s posted in social media is not the full picture of somebody’s life. It’s the curated picture of somebody’s life still. Karen: It exacerbates a sense of, I’m not good enough, I’m not worthy. Look at that person there, you know, they have all this great stuff going on in their lives, and I don’t, you know, so self-compassion can be helpful there. And in fact, in our program, we have a social media exercise and what we teach. Karen: Teens is how to be aware of how they’re feeling when they’re engaging with social media. So we don’t tell them social media’s bad, don’t engage in it because first of all, that’s not gonna work. Second of all, as adults, [00:15:00] we engage with social media. You know, it would be hypocritical of us, us to say not to. Karen: So what we do, which I think is a lot more helpful and also empowering to teens, is to teach them to notice what are you feeling when you’re engaging with social media? What’s coming up for you? Are you feeling this sense of, oh, I’m not good enough, or are you feeling lonely or sad? Or maybe you’re feeling excited, maybe you’re feeling connected. Karen: You know, it’s not all bad. So notice what you’re feeling and then make a choice that’s good for you, that’s healthy for you, you know, take care of yourself. So, so, so self-compassion is all about being good to yourself, supporting yourself, standing up for yourself, you know, doing what’s healthy for yourself.[00:16:00] Karen: It’s all of that. So if you’re noticing that, that something is, makes you feel bad, you have the power to limit it or shut it down completely. And whether that’s social media or you know, a toxic relationship with a friend, you know, you can do that also. But so it’s bringing awareness to what you’re feeling when you’re engaging with them. Gissele: I really appreciate that you said this because I think, I don’t wanna underestimate how powerful what you just said is. Because so many of us are so distractible, we have no idea how we’re feeling in our body. And until we’re present in our body, we can’t really understand how we’re treating ourselves. Gissele: And so to allow young people to just notice how they’re feeling about certain things helps them understand, Hey, wait a minute, is this a positive thing for me or a negative thing for me? And makes them more aware about the choices they’re making and therefore they can choose differently, . They might not choose [00:17:00] differently, but it gives them that awareness of like, how am I being impacted by everything? Gissele: And this is really authentically me, Then they can make that choice. They could take their power back. So I think that’s fantastic. Can you share a little bit about some of the other things that you do in your self-compassion program with teens? Like how do you get them to engage? Gissele: ‘Cause I don’t know if I would see a teen just sitting for hours and hours doing meditation. Karen: Sure. Yeah. Well, we don’t ask them to sit for hours and hours, you know, to practice. Karen: First of all, it’s adapted from Kristen Neff and Chris Gerner’s, mindful self-compassion class for adults. The teen class is different in that it does involve it’s much more activity based. it’s developmentally appropriate. So at the beginning of every class and there are eight classes there’s a little bit of art and it could be mindful drawing. Karen: It could be there’s one class which is. My favorite art activity, which involves playing with UBIC, which if you’re not familiar with Ubic, [00:18:00] it’s like the best slime ever. it comes from the Dr. Seuss book, Barnaby and the Ubik. But it’s, it’s just a wonderful substance and it, and it foreshadow something that we do later in the class. Karen: Each art activity foreshadows something that happens in that class. So we have a little bit of art, like 10 minutes of art at the beginning of every class. we emphasize it’s not about creating some beautiful thing that you’re gonna hang on your wall. It’s about just noticing feeling of a pin in your hand or whatever. Karen: You know, so it’s mindful activity. We have a couple of music meditations with the teens, which the teens absolutely love. We play some games. We introduce informal practices. Mostly we introduce some formal practices, but it’s mostly informal practices, which means things that you can do in the moment. Karen: So you’re starting to feel a little stressed. Notice the feeling of your feet on the floor, you know, that point of contact. and that’s because when we [00:19:00] start to feel stressed, we’re generally in our heads, we’re worrying, we’re anxious. Mm-hmm. It’s all going on in our heads. And when we bring attention to something physical, like the sensation of our feet on the floor, it can be very grounding. Karen: So mostly informal practices. So our regular class is an afterschool class, which is eight sessions, 90 minutes. We also have a school version, which is 16 different sessions, which are 45 minutes long each. Karen: And then we also have have what I’m calling drop in sessions. And this is because school counselors have told us that, you know, sometimes they don’t have a big chunk of time with kids. They have only 10 minutes or 15 minutes. So we have these drop in sessions where they could just go ahead into the class, teach this for 10 minutes, and and so they get a little bit of taste of, of what this is about, or, you know, a number of different drop-in sessions. Gissele: Hmm. [00:20:00] Thank you for sharing that. Gissele: I wanted to mention how important art and music and play are in terms of really reconnecting us with ourselves. Gissele: there’s been so much intergenerational trauma in my family and our history that I’ve had to kind of go back to basics and realize how difficult it was for me to play , how difficult it was for me to sit there and be present with myself. Gissele: Even coloring. I tried coloring and I just kind of rushed through it. Like I had an appointment and I’m like, why am I not allowing myself to be in this moment? But those opportunities, art and music, things that in the school system we haven’t always prioritized , I think is really powerful. Karen: yeah. And I think as adults we don’t play enough by any, by any means, you know? And, in fact, when we train teachers in the program we frequently hear from these adult adults that, you know, they wanna do these activities, you know, because they’re fun. [00:21:00] we need to play more, we need to have more fun, just lighthearted, play. Gissele: Yeah. I’m allowing myself to dance more and twirl more, and play more, even though I do it awkwardly. ’cause there’s always this voice in my head that is like, I have to color it perfectly. Gissele: Right? Like, which is weird because I like to think that I’m pretty compassionate with myself. But as I really am stepping up into Being more connected with my inner child, I can see those little tiny things where I’m like, oh, maybe I should have colored this nicer. Maybe this should have been inside the line. Karen: And teens have those voices also, you know, and which is why we emphasize as they’re, as they’re actually doing the art activity, we say at least several times in that 10 minute period, remember, we don’t care what this looks like. This is not about the product. Karen: It’s not about producing some beautiful thing. It’s about simply noticing, noticing what’s [00:22:00] going on. Noticing noticing the sound of the pencil on the paper. You know, is that making a sound? Notice the feeling when your hand is gripping. You know, the, the pencil is, is there a tightness in your hand? You know, so it’s all about that. Karen: It’s all about noticing, feeling, noticing the process, noticing the sensations that are going on as you’re doing the art. So we’re always emphasizing that as as they’re doing the art and even thoughts noticing, you know, you notice any thoughts coming up in your head like, oh, I don’t like this particular part of the drawing, and can you remember? Karen: That’s just a thought. And notice your thought. And as they’re learning more about the mindfulness piece in the class, will, you know, bring in that notice of thought. It’s just a thought. It doesn’t mean it’s a fact. You can let that thought drift away. Gissele: And that is so powerful. Because personally, having done [00:23:00] self-compassion practices is that you’re teaching. Gissele: reconnection . Right. With yourself, with your body, with your being, as a society, we’re so disconnected from ourselves, from other people. And to just even feel like your fingertips in your body and see how tense we are in the thoughts. Gissele: In my own practice, I’m learning to love my fear and focusing on learning to love everything, Even the challenging moments Can I truly love everything in my life or just even if I can’t, can I just accept it? Can I learn to just allow it? Gissele: And it can feel dynamic, right? So I can imagine for teenagers with their hormones that it must be quite the experience. Mm-hmm. Curious as to your perspectives around how teenagers are doing nowadays. Karen: Yeah. What I am seeing is a lot of struggle. It’s a really hard time and that’s what, you know, the statistics that we’re seeing that there’s high levels of [00:24:00] depression, anxiety, and loneliness. Karen: It’s an overwhelming world that we’re living in. I’m working on a book right now with my wonderful colleague, Marissa Knox. And this is a book for young adults and. We haven’t settled on a title yet, but we are bringing in this idea, and this is, you know, throughout the book and it’s about self-compassion for young adults. Karen: But this idea that we are living in an incredibly challenging world right now. Unbelievably challenging in so many ways, on so many levels. And we have to acknowledge that, you know, and we have to acknowledge that, that things are much harder now than they have been in decades past. And, you know, when I was a young adult, it wasn’t easy either. Karen: You know, there was a huge recession. I mean, I graduated from a good university and couldn’t get a job after, and I was waiting tables, you know, it [00:25:00] wasn’t easy then either, but but it’s a lot more difficult now, you know? The economy is, is even harder and rougher now than it was in the eighties when. Karen: Was waiting tables after graduating. And and you know, I have two young adult children and you know, I hear a lot about their lives and their friends’ lives and how hard it’s, I mean, so we have to acknowledge that. I and you know, when I’m teaching young adults and teens I always bring that in, that, you know, this isn’t your fault. Karen: That you feel all all this huge range of difficult emotions. You know, you’re living at a time when, you know things are really hard, politically, economically on the global stage, everything, you know so. To acknowledge that, to put that out there, to have that be the context in which we [00:26:00] then bring in self-compassion and we talk about how, okay, so now knowing that the world is this way, and guess what, for the moment we can’t do anything about it. Karen: We can in the long run, yes. And we’re working towards that, but right now, in the moment, we’re stuck with it. So how can we take care of ourselves? How can we support ourselves knowing that it’s rough right now and it may not be our fault that we can’t get a job or feel safe in our schools or, Gissele: yeah. Karen: All of that. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think acknowledging is sort of the first step towards saying, okay, where is my power in this moment?Because I think it’s one of the conversations I had with my students is like, you know, in the time when you might feel so powerless, where do you have power? Even if it’s just in terms of how you determine how you feel about the situation. Gissele: Are you gonna let the situation sink you [00:27:00] down and lead you to further depression, Or are you going to choose to say. I’m gonna choose to be kind to myself. I’m gonna choose to do the best I can. I’m gonna choose to allow and do in the moment what I can. And then, you know, if I make a mistake or a trip over over the same rock, I’m gonna pick myself up and keep going. Gissele: Like, or if I can’t, I can’t. Right? So how do we practice that ’cause there’s an element of me that believes that part of the reason why we are in the situation we are in terms of the world, is because of a disconnection, because of a lack of self-compassion and self-love. Gissele: There’s a lack of love in the world in general. And we keep thinking that the way that we’re gonna approach it is have more money and be more successful and do all of these things, but it just breeds separation. Which leads to my next question of how can self-compassion help us create community? Karen: Ah, yeah, so that’s a great [00:28:00] question. Karen: Because of course, as we know, community is absolutely vital. Having community is vital. So I think you know, the first thing that comes to mind is that when we’re more self-compassionate we have less fear of failure because we know we’re not gonna beat ourselves up when we fail. If we fail at something, we’re just gonna say, you know, well, you know, it doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. Karen: It just means like, that didn’t work for me in, in that particular moment. How this applies to community is that we’re more likely to reach out to others, right? So if we’re not so afraid that of getting rejected by others, we’re more likely to make an attempt move out of our comfort zone and reach out and engage in a conversation with. Karen: Somebody we don’t know, for example, we’re more likely to join a community group or, you know, in the case [00:29:00] of teens, you know, sign up for some new sport or music class or whatever to engage with others more and develop that community when we’re feeling so unqualified, unworthy not enough, we’re much more likely to isolate. Karen: And so in that way you know, obviously that’s how community develops is, where we’re able to reach out and en engage with others in, you know, all different ways. Gissele: Mm. Yeah. And the other thing I found in, especially in my self-compassion practice has been that it’s led me to be more authentically myself. Gissele: Mm-hmm. And you can’t really, you can’t really allow yourself to be seen and to be loved and to find your people if you are not allowing yourself to be authentically yourself or to be vulnerable . And so I think that’s a really key aspect of self-compassion, ’cause that’s really what primarily young people want. Gissele: They just wanna be authentically themselves. But we hear all these [00:30:00] messages. I know, I heard them growing up. You know, all about how we have to look a certain way. We have to be a certain way. There’s a right answer to everything. Gissele: and so I think that’s the beauty of self-compassion, is the allowing of multiple perspectives is the allowing of differences in the discomfort. Karen: when you were talking about that, what I was thinking about was in our our teen class, we have a session where teens have the opportunity to really reflect on their core values, and we take them through a particular activity to do this so that they’re thinking about what’s really important to me, what do I really value? Karen: You know how do I wanna live my life and what are the things I wanna let go of, you know? Mm-hmm. So it’s not a conclusive activity where they get to the end and they say, okay, this is what I want. You know? But it’s an opportunity for them to really take a few moments to think about and to reflect on, you know, what do I wanna keep [00:31:00] in my life? Karen: What do I want to hold onto? What do I value and what do I, maybe wanna think about letting go of? It’s just the beginning of that conversation with themselves. Gissele: Hmm. And I love that ’cause I’ve had to do this later in my life, realizing that the things I wanted to have were based on somebody else’s perspective of what they thought I should have. Gissele: And I, I went through a really stripping of like, who am I really? And again, I, this is older, right? Like, who am I really, what do I really love? What do I really wanna do? What do I really want my life to look like? And it’s not anything that I would’ve thought would’ve fit the picture, like it’s not. Gissele: Mm-hmm. But it’s so much better . It’s so much greater, it’s so much more me. Karen: Mm-hmm. Gissele: I was curious as to whether in the program there are elements of how to deal with conflict with one another Karen: Yeah. Well we do have a session activity where we talk about conflict with parents. Mm. And, Gissele: mm-hmm. Karen: Why, first of all, [00:32:00] why that occurs. So, you know, why is that happening? And we talk about the developmental stage and the brain changes and we show this video clip actually from the movie Crudes. Karen: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there’s a teen in there and she’s having a conflict with her dad. And the dad just wants to keep her safe and isolated and in the cave, and she wants to go out and explore. And we talk about how the dad is doing what he’s supposed to be doing, and the teen is doing what she’s supposed to be doing. Karen: Neither one of them is wrong. And yet conflict ensues because they have different objectives and what can you do when conflict ensues when this happens? And so first of all, just having that awareness that, this dad’s not trying to be mean and horrible. Karen: He’s just trying to keep his kids safe. And sort of having that awareness and then how self-compassion can support you because when you’re [00:33:00] supporting yourself in that way, you can add through mindfulness also. You can regulate your emotions and which is the first step, you know? Karen: Well awareness is the first step. That would be the second step. And then get to a place where you can actually. Talk about what’s going on and acknowledge what the other person wants and needs also. Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. I I love that you brought the movie up, the crudes. ’cause what I, remember you know, they both the daughter and the father push each other, right? Gissele: they push each other to grow and learn. And I wanted to emphasize as well for my listeners about something that you just said, which is really important, which is dealing with Gissele: conflict. the first part is always awareness. It’s like awareness of how am I feeling? What am I, what am I thinking? You know, what’s happening in my body. And the second one is being able to hold space for those difficult feelings , right? Validating our feelings, holding space for those difficult feelings, having compassion for ourselves so that then we can have [00:34:00] compassion for other people’s, even if their perspective’s completely different, like differ from our own. Gissele: And so I think that’s the, the beauty of self-compassion is that it helps us have compassion for ourselves and other people. Sometimes the, as they called the disliked person, mm-hmm. But it really does start with the awareness because I feel like we don’t really know how to have conversations with people anymore. Gissele: There’s like this global canceling that happens because I think we are just so overwhelmed by our own emotions and we haven’t really been. At least some generations haven’t really been taught the social emotional part of, regulating our emotions so that we can then do the work of listening. Gissele: And you know, when I think about listening, I think about the work of Valerie Kaur who talks about revolutionary love. And she says, you know, listening, if you’re truly listening, you have to be willing to change Mm-hmm. Karen: Mm-hmm. Gissele: And that that’s can feel difficult. [00:35:00] It can, Karen: yeah. Karen: I think that’s, I I think you hit on a really important and very big issue which is that there isn’t a lot of listening going on. You know, there really isn’t. You know, there might be people sitting there waiting for the other person to finish talking so that they can say their piece. Right? Gissele: Yeah. Karen: But, of course, when you’re really listening, that’s not what’s going on. When you’re really listening, you’re open and willing to change your mind. So yes, that’s certainly part of this whole, you know, the program at the very beginning, in our first class, we have a piece called Community Agreements where we all agree on how the class is going to proceed. Karen: And one of the things is deep listening. Really listening, without that judging voice, you know, put that judging voice aside as much as possible. [00:36:00] Gissele: And that takes practice. Karen: Yes, Gissele: it does. Karen: It absolutely does. Gissele: often we go straight to judgment instead of professing observations. The other thing I wanted to mention was listening to the voices of young people is so important, which is why I think also your work is so phenomenal . Historically, we have not viewed young people’s voices as important as adult voices, or especially the voices of, of young children. Gissele: What are your thoughts about our ability to be able to listen to young people and collaborate with them in a way that makes them feel involved? ’cause I know I, that’s, I didn’t feel that way when I was young. Gissele: Young people were not invited to sit at the table with the adults to talk about adult things and talk about the world, How can we, emphasize more listening to young people? Karen: Yeah. It’s interesting. I too remember being a teen and clearly thinking, you know what, I know what I’m talking about here. Karen: I have ideas. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: You know, [00:37:00] and I actually did have the opportunity as a teen to be on an adult board of, mm-hmm. Of a nonprofit organization. It was a theater organization that we were involved with. and it was a great opportunity, we need to hear teen’s, voices, you know, we need to hear what they have to say. Karen: That doesn’t mean thatwe’re going to make decisions based on everything that they say or, because obviously we’ve been on the planet for longer and we have a certain amount of wisdom coming from our experience, but truly they know what they need and giving them the opportunity to talk about it and to express it and to listen. Karen: You know, I think what teens want more than anything is really to be listened to. Is to be heard. And maybe that’s what we all want more than every [00:38:00] anything is to be heard. Right. Particularly in the teen years, it’s really the first time when they are aware that they have some opinions and values and things to contribute to the conversation. Karen: And as adults I think it’s our responsibility to listen and to hear their input Gissele: Yeah. Karen: As much as we can again, that doesn’t mean we’re gonna make decisions based on, what they suggest. I remember my daughter as a 15-year-old, went through a stage where she just felt like she didn’t need to wear her seatbelt in the car. Karen: And I was like that’s not happening. Like, now I Gissele: got Karen: this. Nope. Gissele: Yeah. Karen: No. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Karen: So it doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t mean we go with everything that they, that they wanna do by any stretch, but, but to listen, I think is important. Gissele: Yeah. And they, that’s a great example. I’m curious as to her perspective as to why she felt in [00:39:00] that moment she didn’t need seat belts anymore. Karen: You know, I can ask her. I don’t remember. I think she was just exercising herperceived right. as an individual, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Obviously when it comes to safety, you know, we have to, Gissele: there’s a history there as to how we got seat belts. Gissele: Yeah. And so engaging in that conversation as you were talking, I was thinking about the generations and how sometimes it’s difficult for parents to hear the perspectives of their young people. if it, ignites shame and guilt, right. I’ve had conversations with my parents about the impact of my childhood and there’s been lots of like deflecting because it was difficult for them to hold some of these things that I was claiming. Gissele: And I’ve been on the other end as well in terms of like my children when they say stuff and you’re like, I hurt you. And so being able to apologize for me has been really important as a parent to emphasize to my kids that I’m not perfect. You know, we’re, Karen: we’re winging it out here [00:40:00] Gissele: and, and how much forgiveness and how much apologizing needs to happen and how much communication needs to happen when mistakes are made on both sides, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. And how sometimes those mistakes and those conversations bring us closer together . But I can relate to my parents’ experience ’cause we all wanna be. At least from my perspective, I wanna be a good mom. I wanna be a loving parent. I wanna be the best parent that I can be. Gissele: And sometimes despite your best intense, you make mistakes. you hurt them. you do things like maybe that are based on your own fear. And so I find the practice of self-compassion really helps me be kind to myself and so that I can listen to that feedback and say, you know what? Gissele: I’m gonna sit with this. But it can feel difficult. Gissele: self-compassion really helped me sit with those difficult feelings because I wasn’t judging myself. A bad parent. Karen: yeah. You know, I think being a parent has been so good for my self and compassion practice just because of [00:41:00] everything that you said. Karen: My daughters are now 31 and 33, and you know, of course I made lots and lots of mistakes, I was one of those moms that I prioritized being a good mom. It was so important to me, you know, to be a good mom. And yet I made mistakes. And recently even I, maybe, I don’t know, six, eight months ago I was talking to my older daughter and there was something that I did when she was a teen that I felt, you know, I wish I could have. Karen: Not done what I did. And I felt really bad about what I did. And I, you know, I was talking to her about it and I said, I’m so sorry that I, put my foot down. I know what you really needed was a big hug. I wish I had, you know, done it differently. And she said, you know, mom, don’t worry about it. Karen: You can let that go. You know, I’m fine, But it helped me, first of all to be able to say that. And I think I was able to say that part at least in part, if not, [00:42:00] if not solely because of my self-compassion practice. And I think part of what self-compassion does for us is, is to remind us that we don’t have to be perfect and we’re not going to be any way. Karen: We’re not going to be perfect. We’re gonna make mistakes. So can we forgive ourselves? Gissele: Yeah. Karen: When we make mistakes, you know? And then if we can, and if it’s appropriate or if we want to or whatever, go to that person, you know, like go to our kid and say, look, I am really sorry that I did that and at the time I thought that was best. Karen: And now I see that’s not what you needed. Yeah. And I’m really sorry. Gissele: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s so interesting, and I think it’s important for us to have this conversation for two reasons. Number one is we think we have to be perfect at being compassionate or none at all. Gissele: none of us are perfect. And I think that’s the problem . We expect ourselves to be truly compassionate, the pinnacle of love [00:43:00] and really just, can you just be a little bit better than yesterday? That’s all that requires. Can you be a little bit more loving? Can you be a little bit more kind? Gissele: That’s all that is really required. And the second thing, which I think you emphasize, which is so important, It’s that we think that being compassionate, it’s gonna be like, well, I’m just gonna, allow my crappy behavior. It is so difficult to be loving and compassionate towards yourself when you don’t feel you deserve it. And what I found in my own practice is it actually enabled me to sit. More. Gissele: With all those aspects that I didn’t like about myself, the more that I was compassionate with myself, I didn’t let myself off the hook, I was able to see how my behavior could have been hurtful , was able to see how there was times when I wasn’t living my values, but if I hadn’t been compassionate, I would’ve deflected. Gissele: I would’ve like invalidated. I would’ve been like, no, no. It’s their problem. It’s not me. And so this is why the practice of compassion is so important, especially starting younger. [00:44:00] So a few more questions. I say youngest that you have done work on it. And are there groups that are helping our, really young people practice compassion? Karen: Yeah, absolutely. So I work with teens and as young as 11 or so. Gissele: Mm. Karen: There are people who work with younger, with younger kids. My colleague Jamie Lynn Tartera works with kids age about seven to 10 or so. And then my colleague Catherine Lovewell in the UK works with kids who are younger and she has a wonderful book out and stuffed animals and and all this really wonderful wonderful stuff for younger kids. Karen: And it’s just adorable. I have some of her things right here. I know you’re not gonna be able to see it over audio, but some of her, so these are her [00:45:00] stuffies that go with her, with her. I like Gissele: the rainbow one. Karen: Yeah. Well, this is actually, so her book is about the inner critic and Yeah, this is Crusher, which is your inner critic, and this is Booster. Karen: Who is your self-compassionate. So the Rainbow Guide is, oh, that’s beautiful, but she just has an unbelievably wonderful program. So yes, there are people working with younger kids and yeah, it’s so important to start early. Gissele: Thanks. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. But I absolutely appreciate that you’re working with teens ’cause that can be a difficult population, but definitely, definitely needed. Gissele: I think sometimes we make it more acceptable to do those kinds of things, like self-compassion, self-kindness practices with young kids, and then for some reason it just kind of drops off the face of the earth and we’re not continuing that practice. So I think it’s wonderful that you are doing that work. Gissele: Two more questions. I’m asking all of my, guests what their definition of self-love is. Karen: Definition of [00:46:00] self-love accepting yourself for who you are. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Karen: With all your so-called challenges and securities. Because really that’s, that’s what makes us who we are, is the whole package. Karen: You know, the things we like about ourselves and the things we’re not as comfortable with about ourselves and when we can. And you used this word earlier, which I think is, is really great. Allow the word allow when we can allow those parts of ourselves to be there, to be present and to accept them. Karen: Say, you know what, you know, I’m not the most patient person in the world. I know that about myself. And you know what? It’s okay. It’s okay. I’m not gonna be perfect and I’m not gonna be good at everything. I. And that’s okay. It’s okay not to be good at everything. So I, you know, my definition of self-love would be [00:47:00] just to, you know, be able to allow all those parts of your, of yourself, you know, to be present and to be there and maybe eventually move towards embracing them. Gissele: Hmm. I love that. So last question. Where can people work with you? Where can they find you? Where can they find your books? Please share. Karen: there’s two websites. There’s my website, which is my name http://www.karenbluth.com. And so you’ll find out about me about my work. On that website, we have a new website, which I really would like to promote. Karen: it’s a website, for teens teens, and that’s http://www.self-compassionforteens.org. And self-compassion is hyphenated. And so that is a recent website that we’ve just launched in the last couple of months which has all kinds of resources for teens, videos, short videos about explaining what self-compassion [00:48:00] is, you know, what the inner critic is, how can we deal with the inner critic. Karen: There’s there’s a quiz on there. See how self-compassionate you are. There’s video, there’s some videos that. Teams who have learned taken our courses, have talked about their experience with self-compassion. And then there’s section about taking a deeper dive. Anyway, I really would like teens everywhere to, to know about this website and have access to it. Karen: And it’s a great place to start to learn about how to be nicer to yourself. Gissele: Beautiful. There’ll be a link on our site. So thank you very much, Karen, for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us and for the work that you’re doing, which is so, so important and so needed at this time. And thank you for everyone that tuned into another episode of Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Gissele: See you soon.

Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to The Loving Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today Gissele: we’re talking about coming back together after estrangement, and I have my good friend, Iona Sky, who is a globally recognized social worker, consultant, and educator whose work is rooted in compassion and systemic change. For over two decades, they’ve helped organizations transform policies and cultures through equity, inclusion and accessibility strategies. Gissele: Iona inspires leaders and students alike to see compassion, not just as a value, but as a powerful tool for justice. Please join me in welcoming my good friend. Hi Iona. Iona: Hi Gissele. Thank you for having me here. Gissele: Oh, you to be a part Iona: of this. Gissele: Thank you for being on the show and I’m so grateful to be able to chat with you. Gissele: I mean, you and I have worked together for many years in the field of child welfare and [00:01:00] we did as we were talking off camera, we did some transformative work around the voices of children and the voices of families and how to work in more empathetic and compassionate ways. You were talking a little bit in your story about estrangement that happened between yourself and your parents, ’cause you’re part of the LBTQ community . Gissele: I was wondering if you could share a little bit about Helped you make the decision to come back together Iona: Mm-hmm. Thank you for that question. When people see me and my my mother now, my dad passed nine years ago you know, I think they would, they would be very surprised to hear perhaps that, we did not have any contact for seven years and that that was purely based on, who I am as a person, my sexual orientation, and what my parents’ journey in understanding and what their story was. Iona: So seven [00:02:00] years of no contact and I got married, my partner had a son, all of these things. And it was actually at my brother’s engagement party. When I was invited, I went by myself and I saw my parents and from across the room after seven years and I looked at them and I, wow. Iona: And I. I remember looking at them and seeing how they had aged in seven years. And in my heart, I was sad that I didn’t get to be a part of that experience. And I thought to myself, I miss them and I don’t wanna continue in this way. And so I went and gave them a hug and said Hi. And then I went and sat with my sister, and, we didn’t really talk, I don’t [00:03:00] think much that day. Iona: And then it was a series of really slow steps my brother’s wedding. Slowly starting to communicate via email. And then because my parents they weren’t living in Canada at that time for for periods of time. And so I decided to go and see them and spend some time back home after I separated from my ex-wife because I needed to go back home and just get rooted again. Iona: Mm. And, and I remember being very nervous. ’cause I’m like, whew, okay, how’s this gonna go? Right? Yeah. ’cause not only have I not seen them, you know, I haven’t been home for a long time. And I saw them at the airport and it was like old times. you know, my family, Iona: We don’t talk about emotions, [00:04:00] we don’t talk about this kind of stuff, right? Mm-hmm. And, but we show, so for me it’s been learning especially with my son, talk about emotions, those kinds of things. We show us reactions, right? And so, you know, through cooking, through care, through those kinds of things. Iona: And so that’s how I knew we were slowly rebuilding that relationship. And it takes time, right? And it also takes navigation of of your own boundaries also. And what’s healthy and what’s not, right? How much time, how much space will help you maintain that healthiness, you know? Iona: Mm-hmm. Because I had to have boundaries as well with how much time do I go and spend, because in the beginning it was just me. And so I had to still, you know, dichotomize my life and not talk about my life. And it was only, in the past few years you know where my mom has gotten to know my [00:05:00] partner, my son, where I can live my full life with my family. Iona: I can say this, that Iona: the one thing we cannot stop in our life is time. We can’t stop time, we can’t get it back, you know, and if I would have time with my father on this earth, I would’ve perhaps had some more conversations with him. But it’s okay, because I have it with him on the other side. Gissele: Hmm. Iona: And that’s, sometimes no matter what you believe in, however, what, whoever, whatever, if you believe in anything, trying to find your peace, right. Iona: Your peace through a compassionate way. And, it’s an ongoing journey, so, right. Like, I’m not arrived, you know, I would love to see I’ve arrived but it continues to be small steps. Right. Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So in order for you to get to the point where you could invite even just the [00:06:00] reconciliation, was there a level of forgiveness that needed to happen for yourself and for your parents? Iona: Mm-hmm. I think for both. You know, I think for both. Because once again, we both have our stories, right? Mm-hmm. And I’m sure that my parents were hurt profoundly, and that’s their journey. I don’t own their hurt, right? Iona: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ’cause that’s their journey of their lost hopes, their lost dreams, their whatever it is, right? And for me, I’ve reframed it. I tried to reframe it for them. It’s not lost, it’s just different. Just looks different. Just looks different than what you imagine. I live a full life with a loving partner, a beautiful son, a beautiful home with my two dogs. Iona: when you think about those things, right, like what parents dream about a success, right? To have a good family, a good life. I have those things. Iona: I just wanna say that forgiveness is an ongoing journey [00:07:00] because also. what I’ve realized about my brain is that my brain has been traumatized by significant events in my life, right? And the disowning was a significant event in my life. And so there are things that I don’t remember or that come to me as I get older. Iona: And so in the sense that forgiveness is an ongoing journey, and I’m sure that it is from my parents as well. Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. in order for you to be able to have some sort of reconciliation, you had to deal with your internalized homophobia. Gissele: Can you talk a little bit about that and that journey? Iona: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. So my parents are from India. I identified as a outgoing, I’m from Gowa. Iona: I give that context, right, because India was colonized. I grew up, in a family but strong Catholic [00:08:00] faith. I grew up not seeing any images. Iona: Or any representation of L-G-B-T-Q identities. Mm-hmm. we didn’t really talk about, you know, being gay, being queer, being lesbian, and the only times that we did it was in a way that was derogatory and, if there were people who we thought might be part of the community, it was always like people spoke negatively about them. Iona: Right. Yeah. and also back home, it’s illegal. And so mm-hmm. To me, you know, like it’s against the law. And so I grew up with a strong sense that it’s not okay to be gay, and also there’s no, no words in our language, in Conquer for the word gay, lesbian, like, you know? Gissele: Hmm. Iona: And so I had no exposure and so, it’s that whole, cliche, I always knew I was different kind of thing. Yeah. But not recognizing, what that might be. And so when I came to Canada and started in [00:09:00] university to be exposed to different communities and identities and, you know, it can be such a formative time for folks and for me it was also being exposed to different people and that I had never been exposed to and starting to understand myself in different ways. Iona: And I had huge internalized struggles learning that growing up, thinking, oh my God, being gay was bad. To now going, oh my God, I think I’m gay. And then going, oh my God, what is that going to mean? Like, am I gonna lose people? Like, am I gonna be in trouble? what’s wrong with me? Iona: And I also saw people in the queer community and university, but they were all white. Mm-hmm. so as I was working through my internalized homophobia, you know, I tried to find space in the queer community, which was predominantly white. Iona: So then I [00:10:00] had to experience racism. Gissele: Yeah. Iona: And it was that living in liminal spaces, right. Not really belonging in either space and so I had really had to process through, you know, and for me, I’m the kind of person who I have to feed my brain before I feed my heart Gissele: Mm-hmm. Iona: And so for, for me, it helped me to learn about, the history of sexual orientations and gender identity in my culture’s pre colonization. And how we were welcomed, you know, we’ve existed from time immemorial. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Iona: And it’s only colonization that’s come and hap and said, okay, no, it has to be male and female, this and that and that, and all of that. Iona: Right. And so it was the finding some roots. Mm-hmm. Finding community, but you know, you take the best. With All right. Yeah, Gissele: yeah, yeah. Iona: [00:11:00] And but have I arrived, Gissele, once again, it’s my own ideal. I, I question my own internalized racism, homophobia internalized ableism every day, right? Iona: It’s an ongoing process. Gissele: It’s interesting how in, in colonization, all the fundamental things that make us caring human beings sort of got eliminated. living in communities generosity, equality, empathy you know, and compassion acceptance, inclusion, all of those things. Gissele: Sort of like, it’s almost like we divorced from ourselves, right? We became so separate from who we really are in ourselvesthat led to the propagation of colonization, which is. Really, really interesting. And I think now we’re in the process as humanity to come back to ourselves and to each other. Gissele: Because when I think about, we don’t live in community anymore. our communities are like our nuclear family, if you may. But when you think about caregiving, in [00:12:00] the olden times when we lived in sort of like villages, there was the grandparents and the kids and the grandparents usually took care of the kids, which makes them younger. Gissele: And then the older people would do lots of different things. And so, and we sort of lost that connection. We’ve sort of created all this space between us Iona: Yeah. Gissele: our communities were so small, I don’t think that, that kinda separation would’ve been possible. Iona: Exactly. Exactly. And that is just it Gissele, we have become so separate because that is part of colonization with. Tied to capitalism, right. And it is about, mm-hmm. Yeah. Iona: it’s about creating classes of income. It’s about who can achieve I grew up in a collectivist culture, you know, my humanity is tied in yours to self, you know, and that is what drives everything that I do. And I will offer a reframe that it was olden times in here, but in other parts in the world, it still exists. Iona: Right? And so how do we bring [00:13:00] this community of compassionate care together in a new way, right? Because you’re right, like. I just returned from Nunavut, you know, and from Ranking Inlet and Cambridge Bay. And, you know, you can see the sense of community there, the sense of caring there, the sense of connection. Iona: And then it is, it is rooted in their values. it is not only. Because of who they are, but it was the necessity. Yeah. Necessity that they had to care, led to be together. Right. Because of the land. Mm-hmm. And the landscape. And, and so what I would love to see is for Iona: for us to find that urgency of necessity to be together and to care, care for one another. Gissele: Mm-hmm. ‘ Iona: cause until we find that necessity where your humanity is tied up [00:14:00] into mine, we’ll just continue on with this dominance. Right. Iona: With the same, the same tyranny of time that I talked about a little bit earlier on in a different meeting. Gissele: Yeah. Iona: Which pulls that compassion away from us. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and we can’t be in survival mode and be in compassion. We can’t be in fear being in love. It makes it really, really difficult. And so, you know, I always think of the colonizer. Gissele: I’m like, what must their life have been like that they needed that, that they felt like they didn’t have enough? So it’s always more and more and more and more like, having to fill that empty hole, right? With more money, with more things and more materials and more land. it just, it’s never enough. Gissele: But I find when you’re trying to fill it with stuff that doesn’t fit there, it’s just, it’s a pit, it’s a never ending filling. Iona: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I know. I’ve often wondered that too, right? I would love to go back in time and listen to their stories. Gissele: Right. And try to understand. Gissele: Yeah. And you [00:15:00] mentioned listening to stories, and I think for me, curiosity is the stepping stone to compassion, right? I’m trying to understand your story and so the more I listen to you, the more I understand. and, you know, I’m a big lover of Louise Hay, which is like, everybody’s doing the best they can with the understanding, knowledge and awareness that they have at the time they have. Gissele: Yeah. Right. For some people, their story makes sense to them, even if it’s just a justification, right? Iona: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, what you have just said on is the essence of where I am at this point in my life, I truly believe that people do the best that they can at the point in their life with the resources that they have, just as my parents did, you know, just as I did. Iona: Just as I do. Yeah. As I say to my son, I’m an imperfect person, you know, and please have patience with me as I have patience with you. Right. Gissele: Yeah. and it’s amazing Like, I wasn’t taught that parents could be [00:16:00] questioned. Right? And so for me to be able to be honest with my children and say, I’m not always gonna get it right. Gissele: I don’t always know what I’m doing. Please forgive me. I’m sorry that I hurt you. It’s such a like, departure from my parents, right? Because there’s a lot of denial and there’s a lot of oh, this isn’t true, it hasn’t happened. And so to be able to actually do that for our children I can’t remember where I heard it, but this is sort of like these generations are the ones that are re-parenting themselves and at the same time trying to parent the next generation. Gissele: And that’s how I feel. I relate to that to have to address all my fears, my limitations, my thinking, my trauma, my biases, so that it stops with me and it doesn’t get transferred to my children and their children’s children and so on. And so. The willingness to be able to do that even so it’s difficult, it’s necessary. Iona: Yeah, absolutely. That I felt that in my heart, Gissele because Gissele: mm-hmm. Iona: Yeah. I really feel like I’m trying to reparent [00:17:00] myself and do things differently so that certain things end with me and don’t get passed to my boy. You know? I want lots of good things to get passed to my boy. Gissele: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Iona: But not the difficult trauma, the impacts of those, Things. And also the intergenerational stuff. Right. And that’s the compassion I think we can have for our ancestors as well. Because, I stand before you and sit before you as a representation of those who came before me, just as you do with you. Iona: Right. And so how can we carry on that? That torch and those values that, you know, that we’re sharing today and moving it forward. Because I think, you know, I think the world needs a little bit more compassion and love and light and Gissele: empathy. Iona: Empathy. Gissele: Yeah, definitely. I was thinking about, as you were talking about how I’ve had to really shift my perspective on my [00:18:00] ancestors. Gissele: I was very mad at my ancestors. ’cause there was a lot of trauma passed down. There was a lot of like neglect, there was a lot of abuse, there was a lot of poverty. There was so many different things. And so I think when I was younger there was an aspect of me of like, why couldn’t you get their, your HIT together? Gissele: Yeah. So that my parents weren’t so traumatized when they raised me. Now I have a different perspective it’s interesting once I sat down with my dad and he was telling me the history of all the things that they went through and they managed to survive. They managed to survive the war. Gissele: They managed to survive poverty. They managed to survive deep, deep trauma. And so it gave me a new perspective around how can I have appreciation for their strengths? How can I acknowledge the strength they gave me? How can I acknowledge the resiliency they gave me? How can I acknowledge all of the history in a way that comes from a place of gratitude rather than from a place of judgment? Iona: Yeah. Gissele: Yeah. And so, and I, and as I go through my own journey of healing my own trauma and doing all of that, I see how difficult. It is, I [00:19:00] see how, how dynamic it can be and feel and how much courage it, it even took I mean, when you’re in the middle of the war, you’re not thinking, I really gotta deal with my trauma. Gissele: You’re just, you’re just coping. You gotta live right. I you gotta live. so I’m so proud of my ancestors for having survived so much and for everything that got me here. Right? Yeah. But I, I didn’t always feel that way. Iona: Yeah. and that’s humble of you to say Gissele, right? Iona: and I think that that’s part of also our development and our growth is people, right? Is how do we come to understand it. Because yeah, like there were times I was angry too and you know, I come to see that they. They have all done their own healing work in their own ways. Right. Iona: Whatever that is, which has cumulatively helped me reach this point where I can sit in this room in Canada, have this conversation with you. Yeah. It was unimaginable to me as [00:20:00] a child in Bahrain. So, you know, I thank you for this opportunity. So, yeah. Iona: You know Gissele: for sure. And I’m, I’m so grateful that you were here. Gissele: I wanted to go back to you had said that, you had to go through your own process of dealing with your internalized homophobia. What things really helped you to be able to do that for yourself? Iona: Well, the first thing is finding a community was huge. So finding resources, finding support, because once again, there’s nothing like being with people who are, in the same situation, you know? And finding somebody to help you process things through. Iona: So of whether it’s a counselor, whether it’s your I mom, or whether it’s your, whoever it is, you know somebody who is knowledgeable in dealing and helping people to process through, their [00:21:00] internalized homophobia. I’ve had people who did it well and people who did not. Mm-hmm. So I’ve learned from both. Iona: And also now we are in the time and the space, Gissele, we have so much access to information. Right. Like, I was out in the nineties, like in the nineties, we didn’t have Google, we didn’t have podcasts, we didn’t have, or Gissele: TikTok Yeah. Iona: Or TikTok or those things connects millions and millions of Gissele: people. Iona: Yeah. Or those kinds of things. Right. So there are lots of resources out there. Find ones though that feed your soul. And now, there is also representation from folks in the L-G-B-T-Q-Q community from different identities, you know, who are racialized, who are, when you think about intersectionality of, of identities. Iona: And I think that that is, was also a really huge thing for me, which I did not. Experiences people with a good understanding of intersectionality and how all the different parts of [00:22:00] me impact my experience of homophobia and internalized homophobia. And so, you know, finding resources that speak to you as a person. Gissele: Can you just tell my audience what intersectionality is for some of them that we’re not gonna know what that means? Iona: Yeah. Great. So intersectionality is a term that was coined by Dr. Kimberly Crenshaw, and it is used to describe how intersecting forms of oppression impact on people. Iona: So when I say intersecting forms of oppression, so if you look at me, I experience on an average day, when I go out in the world, I can experience racism because of the color of my skin. I can experience homophobia because of my sexual orientation. I can experience transphobia because of how I dress and present in the world and my gender identity. Iona: I can also experience ableism because I live [00:23:00] with different forms of invisible disabilities. So when you take all of those things together. They, they don’t work in silos because I say when I enter the room, I’m not just Brown Iona or, you know queer Iona. I’m Iona in all of the pieces that I am. So intersectionality is how all of those forms of isms work together and impact on people. Iona: And so when I think about, supports for people who, might be coming out, might be experiencing their own internalized homophobia the first thing I want to say to you, to the people who are out there who might be listening is that you are beautiful and perfect just the way you are. Gissele: Yes. Iona: And that you know, you belong in this world, in society exactly how you are and [00:24:00] that you are worthy of love, of safety, of joy, and to live a life where you not just survive, but where you thrive. And there’s a resurgence of a lot of homophobia, a lot of transphobia. Iona: I was just saying to my partner the other day, you know, I can’t believe I’m still fighting over the same fight and protests like 25 years later about people who are protesting the existence of our lives. You know? And so so to be mindful of what you also expose yourself to with social media mm-hmm. Iona: Because it does impact on your brain and your wellbeing. And to find your places and your pockets of safety and hope find your communities because they’re out there. Gissele: Hmm. Oh, thank you. That was wonderful. You know, it’s interesting [00:25:00] that. The world is so vast and people’s perspectives are so different, right? Gissele: That there’s still people who think it’s a choice. And I remember our mutual friend that, you know, he would tell me like, why would I choose this? Why would I choose to not belong? it would be just so easy for me to make this choice versus this other choice. And so it’s not anything that I would be choosing because I don’t wanna choose to be different. Gissele: Everybody wants to belong, right? That’s just our RN innate nature . But you know, from my perspective, God source universe never makes a mistake. And so we are all perfect, we’re all beautiful. We may make choices that are maybe not so loving sometimes, but we always have the ability to come back to our true selves, which is from my perspective, our original most compassionate selves. Gissele: But yeah, it’s interesting. and I don’t know if I’ve shared this with you, I’ve heard the best reasoning behind. Homophobia and all, actually all isms. Iona: Oh, okay. Tell me, tell me. Gissele: So it’s from have you heard of the comedian? Iona: Oh yeah. [00:26:00] Gissele: Yes. they then had said in an interview and I loved it. Gissele: they were talking about the acceptance of trans people. And they mentioned the fact that the reason why some people struggle with that is because they, them are being the most authentically themselves. Gissele: And in a world where we don’t like authenticity, where we’re so terrified of it, when we’re not allowed to be our authentic self, Iona: it’s Gissele: threatening. It’s threatening to see people being authentically themselves. ’cause then do we have them to be authentic ourselves and it shines a light on us when we are not being authentically ourselves. Gissele: It took a while for me to figure out where I was being authentic and where I wasn’t Like how many things did I think I had to have, like the marriage and the specific job and the specific income and the specific car and the type of house and all of that stuff. Gissele: How much was it something that I was conditioned to accept as something I should want versus how much is [00:27:00] it that my soul really wants? the worst part is I wasn’t aware that that. There was a different me, a little me that was screaming to come out and say, you know, those things don’t really resonate with us. Gissele: I wanna do this, I wanna do that. I wanna play, I wanna be joyful. I don’t wanna care about how much money I make. I don’t wanna care about the things that people told me that I should care about. Iona: Yeah. Gissele: And so that is sort of the journey and coming home to ourselves and doing things that s authentically align with your higher self, your joyful self. Gissele: Right. I never thought I’d be doing a podcast. this brings me extraordinary joy. This is me, this is who I am. You know, and all the things that I’m doing right now are things that bring me incredible joy. I don’t know if it’s on the recording, but you were talking about how you never thought you were gonna stay in child welfare two years and then I’m out. Yeah. For me it was the reverse. I had wanted to work in child welfare since I was 15. I appreciate that. Iona: Yeah. Gissele: I thought I was gonna live and die in child welfare. Gissele: I [00:28:00] thought if this is my dream, this is me rescuing myself and my mother, and my family, my ancestors, you know, I’m gonna revolutionize child welfare and then it’s all gonna be good. And then to think that I’m doing something totally different. It was not in my bingo card. Gissele: Yeah. Right. But that’s when you start to connect with more of your authentic self and say, okay, who am I really? And what do I really love? What do I really want to do? And in a world where you are punished for not conforming, it feels very difficult. Mm-hmm. And it, and I don’t think it’s purposeful, but as I’m co-writing a, a book with my daughter I did my first book re-Imagining Work. Gissele: Yeah. And now we are doing re-imagining education. We don’t realize how in the education system system we are reinforcing consciously or subconsciously the belief that difference is bad because there has to be one right answer. Mm-hmm. There’s only one way to do things. And so diversity is not welcome. Iona: That’s Iona: in Iona: systems. Gissele: Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But it [00:29:00] starts when they’re very little. Yeah. Iona: Yeah, yeah, Gissele: yeah. Iona: Oh, absolutely. Gissele: And so how do we educate our children to be open to diversity and to differences and to sit in the gray and to be more critical thinkers? Gissele: I wanted to, to ask you a question about your work, because this is something that I’ve observed and so I wanted you to comment on it. Gissele: there’s many organizations that wanna do the DEI work that wanna bring, you know, the representation, inclusivity, but they don’t do the work to cultivate the ground. And so when they bring in the people, you’re setting them up to fail. Yep. Can you talk a little bit about that and how do we help these organizations Gissele: Establish the ground? Iona: Yep. Great question because I have worked with many folks who want to do the right thing, increase diversity, increase representation, all of those good things, right? But it has to be done in a thoughtful way, in a thoughtful and strategic way because I always say that it’s very easy to hire to get diversity, but it’s the retention. It’s [00:30:00] whether people stay. And so this is where it requires leadership to create the climate where people can join and where people feel a sense of belonging, contribution, and inclusion. So not just, we have a racialized person. Iona: Oh, we have a whatever person, right? How do they feel? A sense of belonging? How do they feel that, their voice is being heard? So what leaders can do is create the groundwork right from the beginning, right on. And the fact that this is work that the organization is going to be doing to hire folks from different communities, different identities. Iona: Talk about why that’s important. Tie it in to your organizational goals and outcomes and and prepare your organization and staff in the sense of not making it about the [00:31:00] person, oh, Iona is coming, but about the organization and the growth and the direction we want to go in. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Iona: Because I have been in organizations where people have hired me and that’s great. They want me, but then. When I get in there, I’m like, okay, so you want me, but you don’t necessarily want my ideas. And like, like what work has been done here to get ready to create spaces and places where people can have different conversations, are open to, various perspectives. Iona: Right. Yeah. And you said something really important around children and education And where, where do these conversations start? They start at the kitchen table. They start when you tuck your kid in at bedtime. And if they don’t start there, then they start at university. Iona: They start When I’m sitting with somebody who is 70 years old and we’re having a conversation, it can start. You know? Mm-hmm. That’s the beauty of humanity and of growth. [00:32:00] We can grow and learn anytime. but if you’re looking at it for, from an organizational perspective, there are certain tangible things that leaders can do to get spaces ready. Iona: So that people can not only exist and join your organization, but they can thrive there. Because when you look at your data and if you see people coming in and leaving shortly after that tells me that y’all have work to do in creating places that demonstrate true inclusion. Gissele: Yeah. I love that. I appreciate that. Yeah. I wanted to go back to your journey of reconciliation after estrangement and talk a little bit, about your partner’s journey it must have been really challenging and, and so I’m just, I’m curious you must have had to kind of balance the relationship with your partner and also the relationship with your parents in a way that led to the reconciliation. Gissele: how [00:33:00] difficult was it to manage and were there things you found that helped? Iona: What helped the most, I think is that my partner is the pillar of patience. Gissele: Hmm. Iona: Because that could have broken our relationship. Quite honestly. Yeah. And, you know, I appreciated that she allowed me to walk that journey in the way that I needed to walk it with her by my side when I needed her to be and alone when I needed to do it alone. Iona: Was it easy? No. Was it painful? Yeah. Did we cry? Yeah. Were there times where, you know, we had to have serious conversations about, my relationship with you is, is primary and they are my parents. and she never made me choose, and I always appreciated that. Iona: And she never made me feel guilty for any choices that I made, But it, did it come at a cost? I’m sure it has. Well, I know it has profoundly impacted [00:34:00] her and that’s her journey. And I I can’t speak to that, but for me, you know it was, it was definitely something we had to navigate for many years. Iona: And you know, and it was hard. It was hard for me. It was hard for all of us, but I think it was hard for me because, you know, I mean, and you know, my partner, she’s amazing and and I feel sad that, you know, my dad gets to know her from the other side, but didn’t get to know her in this, in this dimension. Iona: Yeah. and I like your perspective in terms of the being able to still connect. ’cause even if you don’t believe that there is more to this life than this, write a letter to someone and Gissele: burn it, it’s just a way to get your voice out, right? Iona: two more questions. Gissele: The first one is, I’m asking everyone this season what their definition of self-love is. Iona: Oh, that’s a profound question that gave me chills. I think it’s so profound for me at this point in time because I’m still figuring that out. What does that mean for [00:35:00] myself? Iona: You know? Because I’ve lived with so many voices in my head telling me things about my worthiness or unworthiness or whatever, right? That have impacted how I see myself and my ability to love myself. And so now I’m actively working on, who do I allow in my space, in my body? Iona: Who do I allow to occupy space in my brain, you know? And being very conscious also of how do I feel on a very IM visceral, so really paying attention. So for me, because I’ve spent from the age of six to now, like being like disconnected from disjointed from my body due to traumatic events, now my self love is how to bring myself back together in a new way. Iona: And thinking about also, you know, who do I expose myself to? What do I expose myself to because that [00:36:00] releases different chemicals in my body and I want to release chemicals of joy. And positivity and not to be naive, because there’s pain and heartache in the world. Yeah, I know that. Iona: But I think for me, my self-love is how to, experience those moments honor them and walk through them and continue to find joy and beauty every day. Really. Every day, even in the smallest things. Even if it is justlaying on the ground with my penny, who’s my puppy, and just staring at her eyes for 10 minutes. Iona: Mm. You know, we do that sometimes, you know? Yes. And that’s what my self-love is, it is finding my way to, to myself and. I think my biggest thing, Gissele, is learning how to talk to myself, like somebody who I [00:37:00] love. Because I think this is the first time in my life as an adult that I’m learning how to do that Iona: that’s what my self-love is. Gissele: it’s been interesting for me in my journey learning to understand that my body is not my enemy. Gissele: your body is what? That my body is not my enemy. Yes. Yeah. That my body is not separate from me. It’s actually my house. right. So, so feeling like it’s not separate from me that it can’t, it, it can’t hurt me. It’s actually my very best friend and it’s my home for this lifetime. Gissele: Right? last question is where can people find you? Where can people work with you? What’s your website? What do you wanna share with the audience ? Iona: Awesome. People can find me. Check out my website at iskyconsulting.com. You can email me. I sky@iskyconsulting.com. I’m on LinkedIn. Iona: drop me a line. You know, I always say that I work, who is anybody who really [00:38:00] wants. to do this work in a meaningful way and make real change and take the principles of equity, diversity, inclusion, accessibility, and put it into action. And I’m also a social worker, right? And I love supporting folks with their clinical work and social work skills and leadership. Iona: Because to me, this work is about how do we show up every day, whether we’re a leader, whether we’re a fundraiser, whether we are a parent, whether whoever we are, right? You know, Gissele you came into my life like a gift when we worked together. Oh. And I’m grateful for you and for this opportunity because I count you as one of the people who have impacted me and continue to. Iona: And so thank you for having me on your show. Gissele: Oh, thank you. Thank you Iona for coming to the show. I feel the same way. You’re such a gift to me in the times when we worked together were just some of the best [00:39:00] times I’ve had, honestly . And thank you to everyone who joined us for another episode of Love and Compassion, which Gissele and we will see you soon.

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: Hello, and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking with Rashi Nayar, and she’s on a mission to shift humanity from lower states of consciousness to higher states of consciousness. Gissele: I’m so, so excited to talk to her today. We’re gonna have a great conversation and she’s gonna do a practice with me. Maybe you can tag along as well. So welcome Rashi. Hi Gissele: Rashi. Rashi: Hi Gissele. Rashi: I’m so honored to be here with you. Gissele: Oh, thank you so much for being on the show. I’m really looking forward to it. Gissele: What led you to be on this mission to increase the consciousness of humanity? Rashi: My own path to increasing my own consciousness, you know, to operate from higher states of consciousness, which is peace, joy, and love. You know, these are actually who we are and we explore that more as we go along. Rashi: But I was very depressed for 18 years of my life, you know, since [00:01:00] 2007 when I lost my dog and in a car accident. And that was the first time I had experienced unconditional love that way, you know, someone loved me for who I am, not for, I had to prove myself or I had to perform. I had to be someone. Rashi: I could just be whatever. And he loved me that way, right? And it’s very beautiful to get that type of love from someone in that way. And when I lost him, he was only two years old and he met with a car accident and he died in my arms. But that was like it was like an opening. And it was like my heart broke for the very first time. Rashi: I had never experienced something like that before and I was grieving, but that was the first time I started asking questions like, who am I? Why am I here? What’s our true purpose? What is God? What is enlightenment? You know, all of that. Because what my soul was longing for was to connect back to that unconditional love that I had experienced from him. Rashi: But I didn’t know, [00:02:00] I was always looking outside, you know, outside myself. And I entered toxic relationships because I thought that other people were gonna give that to me. I was very disappointed and I was very depressed. I wasn’t chronically depressed. I was depressed, but I was also living in a low, low grade anxiety for a very, like, very long time until 2025. Rashi: This year when I lost another family member, I lost my aunt to ms. So that episode really shook me to the core and it forced me to sit in stillness with just with myself. Like no more reading books, no more going outwards, right? Because that’s what I always did. I would go to a spiritual retreat. Rashi: I would, you know, go outwards, read books, do therapies, you know, do coaching. I did a lot of work, technically a lot of healing work, and maybe that was required, but. Nothing really significantly changed. You know, I was still the same. I was [00:03:00] still living with low grade anxiety and I was still the same. And but this time I went inwards and I connected with the part of myself that is infinite, that is peaceful, that is love. Rashi: And I realized that everything that I thought about myself or the identity that was caring was actually not who I truly was or not, or not who I am. The identities or the masks that I was wearing, you know, the mom, the entrepreneur, and the aunt and the friend, all of those were really masks and identities that I was carrying. Rashi: But who I truly am, my most authentic self is actually free already. She’s already free. And it’s not even a, she, I wouldn’t even, we cannot really label, right? It’s, it’s. The vast infinite being that we are is inherently peaceful. Is [00:04:00] inherently open. Infinitely joyful. Infinitely blissful and loving. Rashi: Compassionate. That peaceful, that’s who we are inherently. And I, stayed in that high, right? Let’s just say I was in those higher states of consciousness for three days straight and I was floating. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: Yeah. I was so high. But then came the day I went down, the anxiety was back again, and I was like, wait, I thought I was enlightened. Gissele: I did it. What happened? Rashi: But that is what what’s supposed to happen, because now. I could see the contrast, right? I had experienced something so profound, and now there’s the contrast or the lower states of consciousness, which is fear, anxiety, lack. I was back, I was back in the fully humanness, you know, the human part of me, but [00:05:00] now my aunts, so she passed away and three days later she, she was in my head, she kept telling me, Rashi, love yourself. Rashi: Rashi, love yourself rash. It’s like, it was constant. And I realized that I didn’t love the parts of me that were so-called dark or negative. I was trying to get rid of anxiety. I was trying to get rid of the darkness, right? I was trying to resist whatever I was experiencing in the moment, and that was profound because now my only job is to love myself unconditionally. Rashi: In all parts of myself, the shadows they call it in the psychology. But I realized that the parts that I’m trying to get rid of, the anxiety, the so-called depression, the low level depression that I was constantly feeling the numbness or the sometimes of sometimes just sadness, [00:06:00] like it would just come up. Rashi: What if I fell in love with those parts of myself? Then what would happen? And that became the journey that became the practice. And when I did that, I no longer resisted those. So it was just the experience and me in love with whatever what is right, whatever the experience is. And now I’m whole, now I’m not broken, you know, there’s some, nothing’s wrong with me. Rashi: You know, and that was the narrative that I lived with for 18 years. If something is wrong with me, I need to be fixed. I need the healing, I need the therapy. But really there is nothing inherently is wrong with me. We all experienced this human side of things and what if I fell in love with the humanness, Rashi: And that’s why the being that I experienced, so in those three days when I experienced the so-called enlightenment or the awakening, it was when I touched my being. And our being is inherently free. We who we are, our [00:07:00] authenticity, we are inherently free. We are peaceful. And yet the human side of things or you know, how we grow up, our conditioning, our identity, our beliefs that we carry, all of that is there. Rashi: And that is the conditioning. So the constructed itself or the human is still there, but we cannot try to get rid of it. It’s like, you know, the snake leaves its skin. By its own. We cannot force the skin. We cannot rip the skin out of the snake, you know? So it’s going to happen only when we fully and completely fall in love with who we are in the humanness. Rashi: And that brings me back to that connection, to that love, to that peace that resides within all of us. So that’s in a nutshell, that that’s the story. That’s why I do what I do. Gissele: beautifully said. First I wanna go back to the, the loss of your dog as a person who had a dog. Gissele: Never wanted a dog to be honest, but we got one for a family and felt completely in love with the dog. And after [00:08:00] 13 years to have lost him. And I realize now that he had to go the way that he did. But he did teach me about unconditional love and patience and forgiveness and joy. And so the grief that you experience after having that can feel very overwhelming. And so where I was going with this question is, the human experience can feel so real, I have sat with some really difficult emotions it’s almost as if your mind tells you that something’s gonna happen something bad or you’re gonna die. Gissele: What do you say to people that say, you know, This is all we are because this is what we can concretely see and touch and experience. How do you go from that to understanding and embodying the fact that we are more than this reality? Rashi: Yes. Oh, that’s such an important question. Something that I live with almost every day. Rashi: You know, there’s this low grade anxiety that I still experience on a daily basis. [00:09:00] The only thing that’s different is I’m no longer resisting it. Gissele: Hmm. Rashi: So, you know, and we human beings, we are either, we’re only living in two A states at all time. We’re either to attach to the state that we want, which has happiness, joy, love, bliss, or we are resisting the lower states of consciousness, which is anxiety. Rashi: We’re really in, in these two states or all times. So it’s like when we get that love from the dog or the baby, you know, I have two babies, two little girls. And I’m like, I want it all the time. Right. So now there’s attachment, because if she says something like, I have a 4-year-old, which is a, she’s a very mischievous toddler. Rashi: Right. When you say something that can feel like hurtful. I mean, I don’t take her things seriously because I know better, but Gissele: yeah, Rashi: for someone else it could feel like, what, what would just happen? Like we were in love and now, or the, the spouse says something, right? Like, I have my husband who really triggers me, so he’s, he’s like my [00:10:00] best enemy, right? Rashi: Like he’s my favorite person, so mm-hmm. He says some things that can feel hurtful, and in the beginning it really used to bother me because I would resist those things. I would resist the experience of whatever’s happening in the moment, right? But now I lean into it, and that’s the difference when we are getting this anxiety or when we are getting something and the experience doesn’t feel pleasant. Rashi: The mind itself because the mind is like that. Mind wants to go navigate towards pleasure and it wants to avoid pain. That’s how the mind is, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: But we are not the mind though. So in the moment, if we can witness the mind’s neuros, whatever it does is like trying to resist. What we do is we say, first I love you mind. Rashi: Because the thing is the mind in itself is what it’s doing. It’s movement what it’s supposed to be doing. [00:11:00] And the second thing is, I love you, anxiety and that love it. It’s the experience that feels heavy, that feels not good, right? And that experience now is infused with love. So there’s no longer a problem with what is, with the experience itself. Rashi: And there’s a beautiful book written by Byron Kitty and her, the name of the book is Loving What Is, and apparently, you know, she’s enlightened, you know, every like, so she’s the enlightened being, right? We can talk in that way. I’m not enlightened for sure, but that’s what she meant. I didn’t understand it back then. Rashi: But this is what she means is whatever our experience is, if we are not attaching ourself to it, which means we are not craving more of that, or we are not resisting that, [00:12:00] then we have no problem with the experience. So the experience in itself is not a problem, Gissele. It’s our relationship with the experience that’s the problem. Rashi: So the anxiety in itself is not a problem. It’s how I relate to anxiety, how I see it. That in itself is the issue here. So if we’re like, okay, anxiety is here, can I love it? Can I lean into it? And when I do, and it can feel scary because some people might think that if I lean into that, that means it’s gonna expand, it’s gonna grow more. Rashi: Right? That’s sometimes where the belief is, and I definitely have that, but it’s actually what happens is the other way that anxiety or that bubble becomes love. And you know, there’s a great saint in India, I really, really respect him. He’s no longer in body and that’s, I always keep this picture over here. Rashi: Mm-hmm. [00:13:00] His name is named Carol Baba, and he was apparently he’s the same behind Apple. You know, Steve Jobs went to his temple. Rashi: I love him. I’ve never met him, but somehow I love him. Rashi: And, you know, love has no logic. Gissele: And it has no boundary either. It doesn’t, it doesn’t mean that you can’t love somebody who’s passing. And I think that’s the difficulty perception about, we think that when somebody crosses over that the love ends. I still love my dog bear and I still think about him. Gissele: I think about caressing him. I think about, I talk to him. But anyways, go on. Rashi: Yes, you’re right. Exactly. So, because love is unconditional and love is who we are. Mm-hmm. Which I’m going to take you back to so you can experience it yourself. But he used to say that suffering brings us closer to God. Rashi: Mm. And God is love. And so suffering, meaning anxiety, pain, whatever, chronic pain. I mean, people who are his devotees and people who have written books about him, they [00:14:00] said that, I’m so glad that there’s this pain in my life because it helps me take back to him love or God. And that’s exactly what we’re doing here, is we are saying, whatever comes to our experience, I love you. Rashi: Anxiety, I love you. Guilt, depression, grief, It can feel really hard in that moment, but that is the portal, the bridge between the lower states of consciousness, which is anxiety, fear, all of that to higher states of consciousness, which is love, peace, joy, abundance, that love and saying it mentally in the beginning it could feel like a mental repetition. Rashi: Everything is like, and then you’re like, I love you. I honor you. Even if you’re here, I love myself and I love, I mean, that’s loving kindness. The practice of loving kindness meta in Buddhism is loving ourselves and then loving people in our lives and loving [00:15:00] what is, you know, so that’s a tool that if people can use then, you know, I would love to hear how their life transforms. Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. it’s definitely something that I use myself and what I realized was that the more love I had in my heart for myself, the more it overflowed to other people. Like I didn’t need them to be different. I didn’t need them to change ’cause I didn’t need them to give me anything. Gissele: I really resonated with what you’re talking about, resistance. I noticed that one thing about myself is when I encountered the most resistance to what was happening, my inability to accept and surrender, had to do with my belief that if I surrendered, I was giving up. Gissele: That was accepting. What is that? it’s like saying that there was no hope or no chance Rashi: Mm-hmm. Gissele: I didn’t realize that the deeper thinking behind my resistance had to do with that. This has power over me, so if I give into it, it’ll take me, it’ll do what it wants to do. Correct. And so when I let go of that story [00:16:00] and allowed myself to surrender, there was a level of peace, but it was hard to get there. Gissele: I just wanna acknowledge what you’re talking about is so brilliant, but it can feel really challenging. And it doesn’t have to, but it can. Because I remember when I would ask for guidance from my higher self God source universe, the guidance that I always got was Love it. Choose it. Gissele: And I’m like, well, I don’t wanna choose this. I don’t wanna accept this. And so, but I would lie to myself thinking that I was not in resistance, but I was in resistance. ’cause my body was so tight. Rashi: Yeah. Gissele: And so, it can feel difficult to let go of that resistance. And we are. Gissele: Not really taught to surrender. we’re doers. Rashi: I just gotta keep grinding it out and eventually this is gonna come through. Gissele: how is that counterintuitive to allow love? Rashi: I love that question because I was exactly what you’re describing. For 11 years of my life, I was a [00:17:00] serial entrepreneur. I’ve scaled my own businesses to seven figures plus. And I learned it from my dad. Rashi: You know, it’s a learned behavior. You keep pushing through, you just keep doing, you know, and that’s discipline. Yeah. And consistency. Like those words feel really good. Discipline, consistency and but it didn’t feel good to my body. Gissele: Oh, Rashi: right. It does. It feels like, oh, it, it felt like I’m choking, but I still kept pushing through and I burned out very much. Rashi: So that’s why, you know, I no longer do what I used to do for 11 years and it just didn’t feel aligned anymore. I wanted to open my heart. I wanted to lead from the heart. So, to answer your question, Gissele, when you say that you are the doer, I wanna take you into this is again, a constructed and identity. Gissele: Yeah. Rashi: Right. This is, again, something that we have [00:18:00] adopted from our environment and from our parents, maybe from our teachers, someone we really admired because they had this habit of keep going and it felt really inspiring, right? Because they accomplished so much and the narrative that we. Play in our head is if we keep doing that means, you know, we’re bring, we’re service. Rashi: This is service to humanity and we’re serving, we’re adding value. All of that feels really good, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: And it feels like we’re in service. But the highest service, and I haven’t come to that point myself, but I get glimpses of that, is surrender. And I’ll tell you why. The highest service is surrender is because when we are surrendered, we are now the channel for God will to flow through us what God wants us. Rashi: And that is the path of least resistance. The [00:19:00] path of least resistance is when we are, it’s not my will, it’s God’s will. The problem. The problem, we don’t have a problem. The brain has a problem. And this is, now, let’s go back to scientifically, understanding the scientifically how this works is the brain wants to solve problems because our brain is from the ancestors we lived. Rashi: Our brain is coming from survival. You know, it, it doesn’t know how to thrive. It knows how to survive, right? And survival means keep pushing through. It means keep solving problems because there could be a line behind us and if we don’t solve problems, we are gonna die. So the brain is used to solving problems. Rashi: So it’s not necessarily you that wants to do, it’s your brain that wants to fix the problem. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: So Rashi: once you understand who you are, then you don’t relate to your brain as yourself. That, and that’s what we do, is we relate to our brain’s [00:20:00] mechanism or our mind’s workings as ourselves. We identify that that’s who I am, but that’s not who we are. Rashi: when we realize who we are, then we are free. Then we can see the workings of the mind as the workings of the mind. And we’re like, ah, that’s what the mind wants us to do right now. But what do I wanna do? Which means I, the, which I’m gonna take you to let you experience that for yourself. So we can do that whenever you’re ready. Gissele: Yeah, of course. I just wanted to mention a couple more things. in my life surrender has been so fundamental. Mm-hmm. It’s led to some magical things happening. But what I noticed was that on the things that mattered the most to me, or had the most limiting beliefs about surrendering is really difficult. Gissele: Mm-hmm. I could surrender, like small things or things that I believed could happen, but the things that were bigger, that bigger than I thought I could hold in my container, I [00:21:00] had a hard time really releasing or surrendering. Rashi: Mm-hmm. Gissele: And so for me, the, the whole concept of surrendering has been a minute by minute step by step by step. Gissele: I’m surrendering a little bit more. ’cause people think, well, I just surrender and then it’s. But if you have limiting beliefs around it, surrender can feel really dangerous. It can feel, it can feel unsafe. And that was one of the things that, the word that came up for me every time I tried to surrender about the different things I was surrendering about is like, this feels unsafe. Gissele: This feels unsafe. So like you said, being able to soothe your mind in, in your emotions and saying, you’re safe. You know, we got this. Mm-hmm. we’re just taking a baby step. That, for me, has gone a long way, Gissele: I continue to surrender more and more every single day and it feels so good to not feel like you have to carry the whole world with you. That you have God, Source, Universe helping you. And usually things turn out way better than I even anticipated. but here’s how stubborn I am [00:22:00] or this ego person is. Gissele: That should have been enough. Like how many times does the universe have to show me, like these magical things. And I’m like, well, but not in this case. Gissele: I wanted to ask you a couple more questions. The first one is talking about who we are. I’ve heard many people that say that we are God because everything is God source energy. We are God, we are made from that. from the same source and that God’s will is our will and our will is God’s will. And I had to kind of grapple with that. Gissele: And the reason being is because it’s not that I think it’s like blasphemous or anything like that, is that I kind of fell into a pitfall where I thought I could force my will. Rashi: Yeah. Gissele: Rather than being like, what’s my genuine will? what’s my genuine identity? and if I truly believed it, I wouldn’t be resistant to anything. Gissele: If I truly believed I was a creator of my life, of my thoughts and emotions and [00:23:00] God was working through me and I’m made up of the same juice as everything else, and I wouldn’t resist anything in my life. I would just choose something else. Gissele: Just curious as to your thoughts about that. Rashi: Wow. Again, this is amazing because yes, we are God, but yes, we are also humans, you know? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: God gave us this body, very limited body, right? I mean, where I come from, the Hindu culture, in our religion, we have flying gods. Rashi: You know, there’s a monkey, God called Hanman. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him. He used to fly, right? And so he has completely crossed the gravity, right? He is broken all the laws. So neem, KLI, Baba, he was apparently the avatar of Numan because he could be in three different places at the same time. So people in Delhi were like Baba’s with us, but in people in Aaba, they, but Baba’s with us has that possible. Rashi: And then there’s people in Bombay, they’re like, but Baba’s with us. How is that possible? So he completely nullified [00:24:00] the, the laws of the universe, which is laws of gravity. And he was a, people used to say that he was God, and so he had commanded or he had done a lot of, or sadana, which is a lot of the yogic practices to come to that. Rashi: But we don’t do that. You know, we’re mothers and we live in a household, so obviously we don’t have that luxury to, you know, meditate first since morning until night. We can’t do that. Yeah. So, right. So we have to address, we have to understand that we are limited in the body sense, but we are also unlimited with our mindsets that what we can think we can create. Rashi: So in that sense, yes, we are God, but yes, we are also a human being. So the ego in itself is not a problem. That’s what I wanted to say is ego in itself is not a problem as long as we can witness. Stay as the witness and we can witness the ego play [00:25:00] out. Gissele: Yeah. Rashi: Ego, meaning the constructed self. And also if we talk about the brain, the brain has a certain neurological pathway, a neural pathway that has been established and the non-dualistic teachings, the avea, they call it the spider web. Rashi: or the veil. the Christians call it the veil, and it’s the neural pathway in the brain that has been established as our identity, our beliefs, our thoughts, our perceptions. Mm-hmm. All of who we think we are, the constructed self or the ego. We are getting away from that, you know, and I, at least I have 39 years of that to get away from that. Rashi: To collapse that completely and to come to higher states of consciousness, which is completely a new neural pathway. Establishing that is a muscle, it’s almost like lifting weights in the gym. It takes practice. So this is a practice, and like you said, the [00:26:00] surrender is not a one, one thing. I mean, Gissele: yeah. Rashi: I think Ekhart Tolle he’s written about this, that the surrender just happened and he just disappeared. Right. And he became enlightened just like that, which I thought I had experienced before. But there are some beings that have experienced that, and they stayed in that bliss and that joy, I don’t know what that is to feel like for me it’s a practice and I don’t have a problem with that. Rashi: I’ll tell you why. Because I’m able to see the constructed self and the neurosis that come with the constructed self itself for sad. You know? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: I wanna see it like that. I want this to unfold as it is unfolding, because then the suffering, the ego is a portal. It becomes an invitation to come back to myself every single day. Rashi: Every single day. Now, I’m a conscious creator. I’m consciously choosing to [00:27:00] return to my original state, which is peace, which is love, which is joy, which is compassion. there’s a part of me, the ego, and I can still hear the voice be like, are you kidding? You? You not wanna be enlightened? Rashi: Like, forget about all of this. I’m no longer chasing it. For 11 years, I did chase the enlightenment. It becomes the shiny object, right? As we are chasing the seven figures, we wanna be a millionaire. It’s the same thing with spiritual money, which is enlightenment. Rashi: Everyone wants that. But what’s the problem with us right now? What if there is no problem with us as we are? That’s, you know what if the way you’re surrendering is the way you’re surrendering is the way you’re being, is the way you’re healing is the way you’re healing is exactly how it’s supposed to be. Rashi: It makes you whole and complete. It’s how the creator wants to experience herself through you with all the mess. It feels very [00:28:00] messy. Yeah, but what if that’s how it is supposed to be? And that is what is like if you’re not resist surrendering, that’s perfect. No, no problem with that. So. We can have a spiritual identity as well. Rashi: You know, spiritual people are high, right? That’s all of the identity They’re not supposed to resist, they’re supposed to surrender. That could be a contracted self as well. So what the invitation here is to just live as yourself completely and to love yourself and meet yourself for where you are. Rashi: And I think you’re doing a great Rashi: job at that Gissele.. Gissele: Thank you. you mentioned, spiritual people. I feel like what I chose to come here to learn was really to learn about love. Mm-hmm. Like true unconditional love and compassion. And Gissele: I understand it. I can say to you, we must love all including those who we deem as our enemies . In fact, some of our enemies are our [00:29:00] best friends because they are helping us remember who we are. Rashi: Okay. Gissele: And yet there is a small part of me that still believes that some people that behave in negative ways, that are very hurtful, that they should be fought or that we should fight injustice and fight oppression. Gissele: Even though to me that’s just another level of resistance. Right? But there’s like this little me, this little kid because of her family dynamics that still see somebody as like somebody needing that saving and other people needing to be less, selfish, And so, and that’s what I’m grappling with. Gissele: To create a true, loving, equitable, compassionate world for all. I have to emphasize the all, it has to include those who are most hurtful. It has to include people Yeah. Who are hurting other people And so I think that’s the thing I grapple with. On the one hand, [00:30:00] I can understand that we’re not really this reality, that this is just sort of like a play. Gissele: Right? And yet at the same time, it’s hard for me to witness the suffering of people who are, don’t believe that or are not experiencing that. And to see people suffer on a daily basis Rashi: Yeah, exactly. Rashi: Exactly. Very, very powerful what you just said. And I wanna ask you a question here. You said there’s a part of me. That still doesn’t really like that, you know? Gissele: Hmm. Rashi: There’s a part of me that doesn’t really, that’s resisting my invitation is what would happen if you really fell in love with this part of yourself that’s not loving? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: because then there’s freedom to really be, we include all dualities within us. We do, we are the saint and we are the [00:31:00] sinner. Because the seed of whatever the other sinner is doing is within us as well. Rashi: It’s just, we’re not choosing to act on it. That’s all we’re doing, but the seed is there. I mean, we still get negative thoughts. I remember I used to get thoughts like hate hating other people. I would get jealous of other women or like all of that. Rashi: Right? So apparently less than wholly less than saintly. Right. That’s who I am. What’s the problem with that? that’s the thing. If I can accept and love the parts of me that don’t feel so holy, that don’t feel so loving, then what would happen? Then I’m free. Gissele: Hmm. Rashi: Right. So that’s the invitation, because the thing is who you are, Gissele everything is it? Rashi: It apparently looks like the world is happening outside of us. It looks like that. Like we have a body and the world like me. I’m happening outside of you in the Zoom room, but [00:32:00] actually I’m Happening within you. Because you are awareness who we are. We are pure awareness. let me take you back to when we are babies. Rashi: Right? So when the baby’s born fresh out of the mother’s womb, it never says I am Rashi. No. Right? It never says I’m a girl or a boy. It doesn’t say I’m zero years old. Nothing. Right? But what it, what? It’s in a state. It’s in pure being state. Pure being, which means aware or I am. Gissele: Hmm. Rashi: Just this.. I’m not this or that. Rashi: I am. And when we say this to ourself, and I would, I want to invite you, Gissele, to say this to yourself when you can even close your eyes because I really want you to experience this firsthand and even the listeners. Yeah, of course. Rashi: Okay, so, alright, so just close your [00:33:00] eyes. Okay, so now go back to when you were a baby, and I don’t want you to go back and track your memory because you might not have a memory of being a baby, but I want you to have this as an experience, like a direct experience and directly experience yourself as just being born Rashi: fresh. Rashi: No thoughts, no emotions, particularly no judgements, no perceptions. It’s just this pure state of I am Rashi: or I am aware. Rashi: Pure awareness, pure presence, pure being.[00:34:00] Rashi: See yourself, have a direct experience of yourself without any name, without form, without any identity. Just pure nothingness. And Rashi: let me know when you’re there. Gissele: Okay? Gissele: I’m there. Rashi: Okay. So stay as you are. This is your original nature, original state of being. Stay as you are. If any thought arrives or comes to your awareness, you can just ask it to wait outside. We’ll ask it to wait outside the zoom room for a bit and we can [00:35:00] take our thoughts later on. We can pick up our identity later on. Rashi: You can pick up your name, beliefs, everything later on. But for now, just stay as you are. I am. Rashi: And now I’m gonna ask you some questions about your true nature. So as you are just the state of I amness, just pure awareness, are you inherently peaceful or your inherently disturbed? Rashi: Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay. So as you are. I am. The other question is, are you open or you’re closed.[00:36:00] Gissele: Open. Rashi: Mm-hmm. Open right now. Stay as you are. Just empty, empty, empty. Stay as the awareness that you are Rashi: now as you are. The next question is, do you have an age? Gissele: No. Rashi: No? Okay. Hmm. Okay. Stay as you are. So if you don’t have an age, were you ever born? Rashi: Yes. Rashi: I want you to even bring your memories out. Take your memories outside the zoom room, keep them out, and just stay as you are. Come back to just pure awareness. [00:37:00] And the invitation here is to have a direct experience of who you are. So as you are, who doesn’t have an age, were you ever born? No. Mm. So if you were never born, will you ever die? Rashi: No. Yes, exactly. And stay as you are. We’re going to go deeper. Rashi: When you stay as you are direct experience, Rashi: are you finite? Which means can you be put into a box like a body, or you are infinite and the body is also within you. Just see this, see this very clearly, and I want you to have a direct experience. Your mind might tell you something else, but that’s [00:38:00] just a thought. So I want you to have a direct experience of this. Rashi: Stay as you are. Are you finite or you’re infinite? Rashi: Are there any boundaries Rashi: between you and the experience Rashi: as you are? Rashi: No. No. Right. Rashi: Hmm. Rashi: Are you naturally accepting as you are or you are naturally in resistance, Gissele: naturally accepting? Rashi: Hmm, yes. Rashi: As you are? [00:39:00] Is there a problem? Gissele: No. There are no problems. Rashi: There are no problems. So as you are, are you whole and complete Rashi: or do you need anything to complete you? Gissele: No. Rashi: Hmm. Okay. So whatever you just said, and I have coached so many people around this, I have taken so many people into this experience. Everyone had the same answer as you. So who we are is this infinite being that is inherently peaceful, that is inherently [00:40:00] infinite eternal, which means doesn’t die, was never born, and has no problems, is naturally accepting, doesn’t need anyone to complete her. Rashi: This whole is peaceful, accepting, loving. That’s a natural state of being, Rashi: and that makes us one, Rashi: that’s who the other person is as well. Rashi: And if you stay as you are, there’s a last question I wanna ask you come back to. I am. Do you even need God to fulfill you here as you are? [00:41:00] Gissele: No Rashi: Mm. So you need no one to complete you because in itself you are inherently complete. Rashi: So just now we’re gonna come out of the experience and you can just take your time just. Maybe rub your hands and slowly, when you’re ready, you can open your eyes. Gissele: Hmm. It’s interesting ’cause when I was in this class, I had an experience where I went into meditation and went into that same void and it was like nothing I’d ever experienced. I don’t think I’ve ever shared this in this podcast. It was like, I wasn’t my body. I wasn’t anybody. and I had pretty bad anxiety in those times. Gissele: And I didn’t have anything. I didn’t have anxiety, I didn’t have anything. But I didn’t wanna return. And so I guess whoever was leading the class had to kind of bring me back and [00:42:00] then and that was really skeptical in those moments. And so I thought, well, maybe this is my imagination until I got home. Gissele: And, and the babysitter kept saying that my daughter was hysterical. ’cause she kept saying, mommy isn’t coming back. She isn’t coming back. Rashi: Oh. Gissele: And Gissele: so, yeah. So that, that was interesting. And so I thought to myself, well, I don’t ever wanna go that deeply into anything so that I don’t like the choice not to come back. Gissele: But and so I’ve been trying to go to that void. But it was surprisingly easy I think what helped me was really, like you said, keep your thoughts at the door, And that was helpful. It was surprising how much I could just not think of something. Mm-hmm. And then when I observed myself thinking something, I could just say, no, go back to the door. Gissele: But I was also at one point wanting to not even like, listen to your questions either. I was just gonna be like, okay, I wonder if I should keep everything at the door. Rashi: Yeah. Gissele: But then when I let your questions in sometimes, then I would move to something else. Then I would go to a thought, which [00:43:00] means I had to go back and go, Nope, you gotta go back to the door. Gissele: Yeah. But I was great and, and it’s so surprisingly simple to remember. I just find that sometimes like to go back and hold onto those identities of like, oh, this is hard, or I’m getting stuck in anxiety. Yeah, Rashi: sure. Rashi: Yeah, Gissele: so, I have to be really conscious of Gissele: A story I’m telling myself about myself, right? Like, how much of a story am I telling about what identity I hold or what I think should be? And so the more I create a distance between the stories of who I think I am and who other people are, the more than I find I open myself to seeing their divinity in myself and and other people. Gissele: But it took me a long time to figure out that the loving all wasn’t just myself and people. It was everything. Rashi: Mm-hmm. Gissele: It Gissele: was, it was those things that we struggle with, all of it. Yeah. and there’s certain parts of the journey that I’m learning to love [00:44:00] more. Gissele: like what I was talking about, seeing children suffer it’s hard to bear as a human, quote unquote. Rashi: Yeah. Gissele: And yet I have to remind myself that that doesn’t mean I don’t do the things that I came here to do. This is why my mission is not just to learn the love for myself, but also to share that with others, whether it be helpful for them or not, not from a place of I need you to change, but from a place of like, this could be helpful to you. Gissele: Yeah. But it’s an interesting journey, isn’t it? Rashi: It is. And you know, it’s hard to bear witness to the suffering of other people. That’s because we love so much. Yeah. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: Right? And it is hard. But the thing is that. Sometimes we get into the trap that, you know, we are supposed to be loving people, so we should be loving everyone, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rashi: And when someone is doing less than loving things, we are like, oh, but I’m supposed to be loving person. I mean, I have this [00:45:00] podcast called Love and Compassion. I’m like, right, yeah. But those parts of us require the most loving, you know, there are times where, and it, this has been the hardest for me because my husband, like I said, is my biggest frenemy, right? Rashi: And he really triggers me. He shows me where I’m not free yet. So he says something and I’m not loving him in that moment, for sure. Rashi: Yeah. Rashi: Because he is pushing too many buttons, and I’m like, outta it. And the thing is, I have learned to love myself. Even when I’m not loving him now. There’s no resistance. Rashi: You know? Now I can see the neurosis of him and me, and there’s no problem. So he says something and then, you know, it’s so interesting what happens recently it started happening is when I’m like, you know, alright, I love you. Even if you’re not loving towards him in that moment, there’s a shift, there’s a very subtle shift. Rashi: It’s very [00:46:00] subtle. And now it, I’m not taking him so seriously, you know, all of this, the thing. And then he sees that I’m not taking it serious. And it’s very much in the heat of the moment, right? And he sees that, he sees presence, that I’m just quiet and I’m pouring love on myself right now. And somehow because I, the lens at which I, I’m seeing myself is changing the lens at what, how I’m seeing him as changing at the same time. Rashi: And now his lens at how he sees me and himself changes in that moment. And then he would laugh out of nowhere and, you know, and the whole serious thing becomes a funny thing now. And that’s the interesting part, is what the highest service we can do to humanity is to love all parts of ourselves, the non holy Rashi: parts, Rashi: the non loving parts. Rashi: If we can love those parts in which we like, I shouldn’t be like that. Oh, [00:47:00] actually, you know what, what? What if you love the part of you that’s being like that? Because who you are is inherently peaceful. It’s inherently loving, it’s inherently accepting. So in that moment, whatever is not accepting is the ego. Rashi: So the invitation here is to love the ego, the constructed self. Only then we can be free. Only then we can be free to be who we are, because the ego dissolves in that. When it’s seen with the light of awareness, shines on it seen and the constructed self is. Gone in that moment and then the construct itself comes again. Rashi: So this is a practice. Yeah. And at some point we’re like, you know, the Buddha used to say, we are like Bodhi, you know, we’re walking people home. That’s why we are here in this world is we’re not the Buddha yet. We’re not in like, because then we’re away from the Maya or the illusion, but we are part of the illusion so [00:48:00] that we can take people home together. Rashi: We’re walking each other home. That’s what Ram does used Rashi: to say. And yeah. I love Gissele: that. I love that. Mm-hmm. I’m doing something called Kriya yoga. Have you heard of it? Rashi: Kriya yoga? Gissele: Yeah. Rashi: With Yogananda Gissele: with yoga, yes. Yogananda. Yeah, that’s right. Rashi: Right. Gissele: I just started, yeah, Rashi: I’ve heard of it, but I’ve never done it. Rashi: So how is that going? Gissele: Fabulous. I just started But it’s interesting. Sometimes even very short practices have a big impact. Mm-hmm. it’s really interesting ’cause you don’t think like you’re doing anything. And to be honest, I came into it a little bit skeptical in terms of like, I’m used to meditating for two, three hours and I think you’re supposed to be doing like an ongoing, because I’m just learning it, I’m just starting with little practices. Gissele: But the little practices have been really powerful. Rashi: It’s the little ones that are more powerful, you know, the loving, the act of loving oneself and seeing parts [00:49:00] of us, it requires a very high level of self-awareness. You know, it’s just like we’re catching ourselves just before the ego has started to take control. Rashi: And that practice, I feel, if we can do it in action, because we live in such a busy life, right? Gissele: Yeah. Rashi: It’s a luxury to even sit in meditation for so long. You know? It’s so, I mean, it’s a privilege almost like these days, I wish, sometimes I wish I could go to these 10 day, the pasta meditation retreats and just like, yeah, Gissele: me too. Gissele: I wanna go to India. Rashi: Oh my God. Like, yeah. Rashi: If we can do meditation in action, I feel that that’s more effective then, you know, going uphill or sitting in a cave and you know, because then we come in the world anyway. Rashi: And I remember Ram Dass again used to say, if you think you’re enlightened, go and live with your family for the weekend and then come back and tell me how enlightened you are. Gissele: I don’t wanna say it’s was easier, but you can go to a cave somewhere and I think that’s what needed to happen with certain [00:50:00] yogis in terms of helping us lift the consciousness. Gissele: Sure. So that was what happened then. Exactly. But it is a lot harder, and I think I was reading this in Yogananda’s book, the, the path of the householder is much more difficult. ’cause you, you talked about the war within ourselves, there’s so many families that are in, like, they’re not talking to one another. Gissele: There’s so much conflict within Of course we have wars, the world, we’re in conflict with ourselves. And even with the people closest to us, we can’t even get to that point. How do we expect there to be no wars in the Gissele: world? right, exactly. it’s so hard to look at ourselves. At least it can feel that way, but. Being willing for me is like the beginning point. Okay. I just have to be willing. And for me, I’ve had to prioritize my time, even just to do a quick meditation, Gissele: it’s just as important as that email I gotta send orthat lecture I gotta put together. Rashi: and non I negotiative Rashi: practice. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And that’s the stage, that’s the season you’re [00:51:00] in. And I mean, I really wish I could get that time to just sit in meditation, be like, you know. Rashi: Yeah. And sometimes we just don’t get it. So. Gissele: Yeah. And that’s okay. I Rashi: mean, Gissele: it’s like you said, Gissele: the practice, the, the power of practicing in the moment I think is. Rashi: Very powerful. Gissele: Equally. Yeah, very powerful. Yeah. Rashi: Yeah. Gissele: Wow. So we’re reaching the end. I just wanted you to share where can people work with you? Gissele: Where can people find you? Anything you wanna share with the audience? Rashi: sure. So I, my website is called www.rashinayarwellness.com. And there’s an app that I have for people over there. It’s a free app. They can get download, it helps them return to who they are. And there’s a series of questions that can take them to just pause and reflect on. Rashi: And then the answer comes before there’s guidance and then there’s a specific meditation. So if people can find time to access that. And then there’s different options, you know, ways people can work with me. But I really wanna get this [00:52:00] app in as many hands as possible. I’m also writing my first book, which is called Living From Your Highest Frequency, which is, you know, love, right? Rashi: And it really talks about these lower states of. Everything that we talked about today. Yeah. And there’s tools that people can use, you know, in daily life when they don’t have time to meditate. When they don’t get that peaceful moment to themselves is to retreat within themselves on a moment to moment basis. Gissele: Mm. I love that. Rashi: Yeah. So go back to that piece because we are peace as we explored right now. So it’s the moment to moment returning back to who we are is what really can free us, can liberate us, and can really help us take bigger actions in this world. You know, without otherwise, some people can freeze and stay in anxiety for years and nothing’s happening. Rashi: So if we can live with those lower states of consciousness, but have no [00:53:00] resistance to them Gissele: mm-hmm. Then Rashi: automatically we’re in higher states of consciousness. That acceptance in itself takes us to higher places. From there, we are doing service. We are making an impact in the world without really judging ourselves because we are our biggest inner critic. Rashi: You know? So yeah. Gissele: What a perfect Gissele: way to end, because I think what you said is so, so critical, which is the minute we stop resisting something and go to acceptance, we’ve automatically shifted to something higher. Thank you so much, Rashi. You had such a great time. Gissele: Thank you for helping me remember who I really am and helping our audience as well. Please work with Rashi. Go check out her app and check out her book when it’s available. And thank you for joining us for another episode of The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Gissele: Today we’ll be chatting with Deidre Harris, who is a national leadership in highly effective teams development trainer and coach. She supports educational programs looking to enhance their administrative staff’s leadership skills and their teaching teams levels of effectiveness. Gissele: Please join me in welcoming Deidre. Deidre: Hi. Gissele: Hi. Hello. Welcome to the show. Oh, Deidre: thank you for inviting me. Gissele: Oh, thank you so much for being here. This is definitely a topic of interest for me. I was wondering if you could tell the audience a little bit about how you got into this work. Deidre: Oh my gosh. To make a long story, very short that I’ve just been working in the education field for over 35 years [00:01:00] and through all of my very. Deidre: Various different positions. You know, leadership has just been coming up over and over and over again. And, and what does that look like? As a teacher working with children or as an assistant supporting that teacher or as a director or principal supporting staff. And so no matter what position I was in or what I was doing, leadership was just always, at the foundation of everything we did. So as I stepped out to do my own work, it just kept coming up more and more, and so I said, okay, there’s a need. Let me get out there and help to address it. Gissele: Wonderful. Wonderful. And what were some of the biggest leadership challenges you saw in the education system? Deidre: Well, gosh, I have to start with myself, Gissele right? So how did leadership show up in me? And a lot of times we kind of think about it and put it under the category of professionalism, but leadership. Actually goes [00:02:00] beyond professionalism to to be professional, to to show up with that hat, to do the work that you are hired to do in a manner that you know, that gives great outcomes for everybody. Deidre: That’s just one piece of it. When I go in and I talk about leadership, it’s really about mindset. And so I actually had to work on my own set. Who am I as a leader? And how do I get to show up in that leadership to, you know, to actually, again, get those outcomes that I’m looking for. And so, as I was, you know, as I started doing this work among myself, like I mentioned earlier, I started seeing it. Deidre: Elsewhere. And what I notice is that again, well, the biggest challenge, or the thing that I notice the most is everybody attributes leadership to a title. Gissele: Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, you’re Deidre: either your administrator or like I said before. You’re a director or a principal or, you know, sit [00:03:00] somewhere where leadership is part of your, your title in the sense of authority. Deidre: And so that’s, I would say one of my, my biggest challenges and, and what I noticed and again, what’s, you know, motivated me to do this work because leadership, we’re all leaders. You know, regardless of our title, regardless of what we do, and because I have that belief, then going out there and helping people to see their leadership and then to start standing in their leadership, that’s, that’s been my ongoing challenge in work. Gissele: Hmm. Deidre: Yeah. Gissele: Thank you for that. Thank you. and I really appreciate that you said that you know, everyone or anyone is a leader, right? Including the children. And so as teachers who, step up into their own leadership can then model that for the kids themselves. But the school system isn’t always sort of designed that way. Gissele: Where leadership [00:04:00] can come from anywhere. It is at times designed in a very hierarchical, as many other systems that we have. How has the structure been sort of a little bit of a hindrance or help, around leadership? Deidre: Well, you know, I would say it’s definitely a hindrance or, a challenge, a barrier, and again, you nailed it. Deidre: The education field is very hierarchy driven. It’s very top down. We see that in our struggles with, being a teacher or wanting to be a teacher and having things. Put upon you that you have little to no control over and and hence some of the impact in terms of the severe teacher shortage that we’re in right now. Deidre: I mean, who wants to work under those demands. So absolutely. Going in and again, helping people to understand that when you take on and think about personal leadership, it takes you out of this space of feel, what I call victimhood [00:05:00] of feeling like, oh. I have no control, I have no influence. Deidre: I have no power. And really showing people just how much power they actually have, even when things are being put upon them. So how they address the situation, how do they stand up and use their voice? How do they actually go through and develop their skillsets? Those are things we all have Personal power. Deidre: Over and agency. And so therefore, we can stand in our leadership regardless of what’s going on around us. And in fact, when we’re truly grounded in our leadership, the outside world tends to impact us less. Meaning it’s not like things don’t happen, but our response, we tend to be more responsive and less reactive. Deidre: Yeah. Right. And, and ultimately that’s the goal. Gissele: And what you said is so, so important because I think you’re right. There’s times when we feel [00:06:00] helpless and so if you, if we really can reflect on where’s my power in this moment, even if it’s just in how I react to this particular experience, then we’ll feel more powerful then we feel like we’ll have more leadership Gissele: I just wanted to go back to your point about this this sort of shortage for teachers. Do you think that sort of the lack of funding or the lack of like, the amount of money that teachers are getting paid, it might be contributing? Because right now the cost of living seems to be not necessarily reflecting what people’s salaries are. Deidre: Absolutely Deidre: So wages and salaries are certainly part of that. And also, I mean, there’s a disparity even within the education field. So if you’re if you are part of a school district, then your salary tends to be higher. You have access to more resources. Including additional education that, you know, can be subsidized as well as benefits.[00:07:00] Deidre: But if you’re in early childhood, which is where I spend a lot of my time, where we’re working with teachers who are with infants, toddlers, and preschoolers, many of them are in community schools and don’t have the same system set up. So their wages, their benefits, their resources are even less. And yet the expectations for their education are the same and we know how ex. Deidre: Expensive it is for college, right. To get that degree. And so even in early education, you need to have a degree. So now we’re asking people to take on a lot of debt, right? Yeah. Because most of us, how many of us can afford paying for it outright? So we’re taking on a lot of debt and coming out with very low wages. Deidre: Which means that, I mean, just the cost of living, but those dreams like owning a house, right? Or you know, things like that, providing for your family get whittled way down because of the amount of debt that you’re already coming out with. [00:08:00] And so, absolutely, that has a lot to do with the field. And as I mentioned earlier, again, because a lot of things are so top down driven, they’re, a lot of things, again, I use the word put upon because it is directed by people sometimes outside of the field who Have little understanding or have an expectation of an outcome and say, this is what you know we want you to do and this is how you, we want you to do it. All of that decreases the, motivation for becoming a teacher because they actually have taken the art away from it, and I don’t think people see, you know, realize that teaching is both the science. Deidre: And in art. Mm-hmm. And so we can go in and deliver a curriculum and the curriculum is the science part, but how we do it when we do it to, you know, to what degree we do it, what strategies are we doing when that’s the art piece. And many times things are so [00:09:00] structured that the art goes away. It, it’s no longer fun. Gissele: Yeah. I completely agree Absolutely. Yeah. sometimes I think to myself, we kind of live in a topsy-turvy world, right? Like, think about the people that make millions of dollars. Not that we should take anything away from people to play, football and movie stars Gissele: Wonderful. You know, you’re allowed your abundance, but important roles such as teaching and nursing they’re paid such, such a base level and it just doesn’t work. And we’re kind of in an interesting time. Gissele: I see it because we kind of have this gap. there was the baby boomers and people of my generation and even younger that kind of got sold a bag of goods, right? and it sort of worked for us during our time you could go to a good school, graduate, get a good job, get all the things that you thought you were going to get, but the new generation. Gissele: Even if they graduate, they come out with huge debt. They don’t have jobs that are going to pay them because some of these companies now are just wanting to not pay [00:10:00] benefits, not just give what people deserve. Mm-hmm. And so then you see this new generation that is like, I’m out. Gissele: Yes. I’m gonna live off grid. I’m gonna make money on social media. I’m just not gonna do those things. Yes. And so something’s gonna have to change, right? Like, I think we’re gonna have to prioritize. These sorts of positions and go back to the art and go back to the acknowledging the value that is being offered by these positions it doesn’t have to be one or the other. Gissele: I mean, these people can still say in their abundance, but the abundance of teachers and nurses should be elevated from my perspective. Deidre: Yes. I totally agree. I mean, and you know, we could spend weeks here on this topic alone. Right. just thinking about, you know, what are our priorities? Deidre: And when I go back and, and we know this because, [00:11:00] I mean, the research has come out over and over and over again, the return on investment, so. So I’m gonna bring it back to education because the return on investment, when we invest in our children, it’s something like 16 to 18% or times what the initial investment was. Deidre: So if we were to say to someone, Hey, if you invest, you know so much, you know, a hundred dollars and you’re gonna get a eight, 16 to 18% return, everyone would flock to that. Right? Yeah. Everyone would be buying shares in that company. So it’s really interesting how we look at it, the investment in that way. Deidre: Yet we don’t see the same type of investment in our children. And yet, look at our role today. Right. I mean, yeah. Yes. There’s great things happening and yes, there are, things happening. that we’ve never seen before in our lifetime. Yeah. And to go back to what you were saying, Gissele [00:12:00] this generation is the first generation that has done not as well as their parents’ generation. Deidre: So when you’re talking about they’re coming out with debt, that we have so many students coming out and having to live with their families because the jobs just aren’t out there paying what they would need to survive with inflation, or they have this huge mountain of debt that, you know, that they have to get up underneath of, and all of these other things. Deidre: So we get to. To look at that because what are we setting up for the generations who are, coming after us? what are we leaving them? Gissele: Yeah. and I totally agree with that, but, I have to reflect and I do believe that we’ve accepted certain things over time. Like one of the things I would hear often again and again is that, people. Gissele: Believe that like doing good, you don’t have to accept that much pay. Right? It should be free or it should be low. So I feel like there’s an element well, we’ve done this to ourselves, [00:13:00] and I feel like now is the time that we’re like no more. Because Gissele: that really allows you to then do more of that important work. there doesn’t have to be a trade off between you doing good and allowing your abundance to come into you. But I feel like we have, ’cause that was the one thing that I always heard, like people that are doing good and helping people, oh, it can’t cost that much. Gissele: It has to be free. And it’s like, okay, so this is why we’re in the situation we’re in. But like you said, we have power. We just have to say, well, we are not willing to take this low pay anymore. It’s done. So either pay us what we’re worth, or you’re gonna have systems shut down. Mm-hmm. Gissele: Because they’re not gonna have anyone to do the job. What are your thoughts? Deidre: so Gissele you take us right into the leadership mindset, and that’s why I’ve started doing that work. For just that reason is because you even said it. Deidre: It not that I wanna move into blaming or shaming, and yet we do get to [00:14:00] own that. When whoever we are in the helping field, whether it’s coaching in whatever area, or education or health, whatever that field is, it’s this idea of our money mindset. Right. Like, you know, money is the, the root of all evil or whatever. Deidre: We grew up with that somehow, and you said it, that somehow that when we attach money to helping others, now we’re wrong or we’re greedy, or we should do it from the love of our heart. And basically what we’re being asked to do is to subsidize. Other people’s wellbeing. And I think we have to really understand that, that really we’re being asked to subsidize, you know? Deidre: Somebody else’s health or somebody’s else is fitness or somebody else’s, you know, whatever that is. And so, like you said, when when we step into that leadership mindset and say, this is who [00:15:00] I am and this is how I wanna show up in the world, as soon as we fully own that, then the money doesn’t quite become an issue. Deidre: Or we start moving out of that and we start charging what we’re worth. Mm-hmm. And so that right there is, is just really huge. And again, as I bring it back to the education field, it not that you’re gonna go out and and demand a salary increase, but as you show up and, and we start advocating for ourselves and say. Deidre: Look, the, this is what we’re talking about. here’s your return on the investment. It FARs outweigh what, what you’re paying me. We get to start equalizing or leveling things up. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. I’m gonna disagree, Deidre. I do think that people should go out and ask for an increase the cost of living is so far above, and somebody did the numbers, I think it was on TikTok. Gissele: People are now spending almost like. 75% on their salary on living, [00:16:00] which doesn’t leave a lot to save. Whereas, you know, like many moons ago, it’s only about half. And so people were able to save for a house. We’re able to do all of these things. But let’s talk about worth. And I think that’s the thing. Gissele: Historically, we have not really valued our worth. I heard these two people talking about, how, they expect people to work nine to five, but they said come in for an eight o’clock meeting. Yes. and the person said, no, sorry, I’ve got this going on. Gissele: I can’t make it. And it was a huge deal. and they were, criticizing them and ostracizing them for doing stuff outside of work hours. And I think for many, many years we accepted that we thought it made us valuable and that somehow there’ll be a return on investment and it has not. Gissele: All it’s done is, oh look, we get a praise. And just praise is just not gonna cut it anymore. Which is why I think this younger generation is keep your praise. Yep. I’m gonna keep my money or I’m gonna keep my time. Right. And so I do [00:17:00] think it’s the time now to truly say, okay, what am I worth? And this is what I desire in terms of income. Gissele: What are your thoughts? Deidre: and I agree with that. So let me just go back and clarify. Deidre: ’cause I’m not saying don’t go out and advocate for yourself and financially, it’s just one way to do it. Mm-hmm. When you’re talking about stepping into your self worth. And again, the key is to own it. Yeah. So when you’re in your leadership, right and you’re owning your worth, that’s when the advocacy really happens. Deidre: And here’s what often happens is, is people will say I want you to do for me what I won’t even do for myself. Deidre: Fair Gissele: enough. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Deidre: So, when we’re grounded, when we’re in our leadership and we’re presenting ourselves as leaders, then that’s what I mean by that. The advocacy comes and absolutely, we still get to have those discussions and fight for [00:18:00] equal pay by all means, and not just as a group, but in. Deidre: Individuals, because not every person is equal. Right? Yeah. And what value we have is going to be different based on the work that we’re doing and who we’re doing that work with. So we get to be really clear about our value, and many of us aren’t. Yeah. So it’s really hard to go out and say, you know, I think I should have more money and not be able to answer the question of, well, what are you bringing to the table? Deidre: Hmm. And that’s where many of us are, as opposed to, you know, coming in and say, wow, when I come in, I’m able to do this, this, this, this, and this, and the benefits of this is this, this, this, this, and this. Now we have something to talk about and negotiate and discuss with. That’s us being in our leadership. Gissele: Mm, I understand. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Deidre: yeah. Gissele: [00:19:00] Thank you for that. And speaking of different values, Let’s talk about compassion in the education system and the challenges that may present themselves in terms of managing behavior problems and then where leadership would fit in those circumstances. Deidre: Yeah, this is me sighing Gissele becauseyou know, I’m a little speechless and the reason for that is because you would think of all fields. All fields, or at least like you said, one of the helping fields that compassion would be embedded. And I have to say it’s not now there’s gonna be, you know, listeners out there that are gonna disagree with me, you’re probably gonna get a flood. Deidre: What is she talking about? That’s okay. You know, where I work, there’s, you know, compassion, but I just mean generally speaking that. Again, if we’re talking about, say, teachers with children, it’s not that teachers don’t have compassion for children, but they’re fried. Yeah. They’re [00:20:00] burnt out because of the, the workload and what they’re asked to do. Deidre: Now you take workload and then you bring in children who have lots of challenges on a lot of different areas, whether it’s just, you know learning. Disabilities that they have. And so it, you know, it puts additional workload on the teacher to figure out how to support them, especially if they’re not able to receive services around that. Deidre: You have children coming in who definitely are coming from circumstances that are traumatic or neglectful. So now you have a lot of mental health that teachers are having to deal with and trying to support children in order for them to learn. And then in addition to that, now you have teachers being attacked both verbally and physically. Deidre: Yeah. By very young children all the way through you know, into our high schools and our colleges. So much to the point where, where we’re talking about, you know, teachers carrying [00:21:00] guns in school in order to protect themselves Wow. Or be in a position to. To protect children if somebody comes in. Deidre: Wow. So, so when you’re thinking about all of these pressures mm-hmm. That are there, it’s really hard to be compassionate. So it’s not that our teachers, our directors, our principals don’t want to be compassionate. It’s really hard when we have all of these external pressures. It, it just truly is now. Deidre: And then on top of that, think about again, just having compassion for ourselves, and that’s where that leadership comes in. So I always talk a lot about practicing grace. Gissele: Yeah. Deidre: So the practicing grace is for ourselves. And, and that gets to be embedded as part of our leadership. So, I mean, there’s great websites out there like I think it was one called self-compassion dot org. Deidre: So if anybody, you [00:22:00] know, wants to check that. That out. A wonderful woman who’s been in the field for a very long time provides lots of free resources on there. I tell everybody about it all the time because it’s something that we do get to practice. It’s a muscle. Having grace for oneself is a muscle that we get to build and we get to pour into to keep that muscle strong because we are typically our own worst enemies. Deidre: Right. You’ve heard that, right? that inner critic or that self critic, that voice in your head that comes up when you do something and they might say, you know, or You made a mistake. Well, that was stupid. Well, how dumb was that? Or that voice that comes up and says you know, who do you think you are? Deidre: You can’t do this. Keep your mouth shut. You don’t have anything to offer. That’s the voice that we’re talking about that we get to actually look at and say thank you. But no thank you. [00:23:00] I don’t need that advice today. I am practicing grace. Practicing grace means that we are owning, that we are fully human. Deidre: And so I say that as a as a recovering perfectionist. Mm-hmm. So I own that. I have to practice every single day to not get things to such a high degree. And then, you know, where I’m not getting things done or driving myself crazy. Instead, I get to practice grace and say, I’m human. It’s okay if I make a mistake. Deidre: Now, if I’m making that same mistake repeatedly, that’s. great feedback that I wanna go in and, and look at that. So I’m not saying, you know, go out and just be a hot mess all of the time, but just owning, you know, it’s not gonna be an if, it’s gonna be a when we’re gonna, we’re gonna make mistakes and if we’re going to learn and grow and practice that self-compassion, we need to practice grace. Deidre: Giving ourselves grace. [00:24:00] Yeah. And as soon as we’re able to really be compassionate. Then we become really genuine in stepping into compassion for others. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Absolutely, absolutely. I don’t think people realize that that critical voice, like internally is how they talk to other people as well. Some of the most critical people that I have met, that’s how they talk to themselves as well. Gissele: And so, here we talk about, when you. Fill up your bucket, right, and you give to love and compassion towards yourself, then you can give to others from your overflow, right? Yes. Then you have more than enough and when you give yourself love and compassion. You give yourself what you’re looking for externally. Gissele: You don’t need people to be different. You don’t need them to be a specific way. And so you can have that grace for yourself and other people. Mm-hmm. One of the things that I found, I was thinking about what you were saying around, you know, teachers carrying gun and so on is the role of fear [00:25:00] and the lack of. Gissele: Emotional regulation that has been taught, and I think that’s what compassion helps us do is regulate those difficult feelings. Mm-hmm. how has fear really impacted teachers’ abilities to really be in their leadership in those moments? Deidre: Well, fear shows up in a lot of different ways, and we know that, you know, fear is actually a secondary emotion, meaning something else is Happening and the result or the symptom is fear. So one of the things we get to look at is, what am I afraid of? So if I think about myself and me, as a perfectionist am I afraid of, of failing? Am I afraid of what people might think of me? I mean, it’s gonna look a little different for everyone, and that’s part of the self-discovery process is it’s what am I afraid of? Deidre: Because that’s really what I wanted. To look at. If I’m just saying, you know, I’m afraid, then [00:26:00] that’s, an outcome, that’s a symptom that’s telling us. Right? Yeah. And that kind of goes back to what you were saying about our emotions is that our emotions is our body’s feedback to us that something is going on. Deidre: And so listening to that feedback is critical to help us figure out What is it that’s going on? And you also said that earlier when you said that this isn’t something that’s taught. And so while we’re starting to do that, you know, we call it, you know, social emotional learning or development. We do that, you know, in our schools. Deidre: And that’s becoming prevalent again, especially after COVID. What people don’t realize is that our corporations are actually spending billions of dollars on training their people in emotional intelligence, which basically is social emotional development for grownups, right? So how do we manage those big emotions? Deidre: Right. [00:27:00] Anger, frustration, fear, resentment, jealousy. I mean, we can go on and on and on. How do we manage them? How do we regulate and how do we look at it in relationship to those people around me? So when I’m having. These emotions. Who else is it impacting? Because I, I get to look at that. And so one of the quotes that I absolutely love out there is live in the impact, not the intention. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Deidre: Yeah. And that’s huge, right? Because often we say, oh, well I didn’t mean to, or I intended to. and my question is, well, how did that turn out? And if we’re talking about something that, you know, didn’t turn out the way we expected to, that’s great feedback for us. That we get to go back and change or shift something and try it again to get closer to the outcome that we were wanting. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah, and I love how you frame that, and even this in what you had [00:28:00] said before, because there’s such an element of acceptance and not judgment. Even when you said, you know, I keep making the same mistake. If you keep doing the same behavior, you might not be aware that it’s serving you somehow. Gissele: Sometimes we may not like our behavior but it’s serving us ’cause otherwise we wouldn’t keep doing it. So maybe there’s a subconscious thing that we need to look at. So I love how you frame that in terms of, you know what, so these are just messages that we need to understand then, that are reflecting or mirroring back to us. Gissele: What we may need to heal, what we might need to address, which I think is so, so pivotal because we get stuck behind the shame, the criticism, the guilt, all of those difficult emotions and can’t get past them in order to be able to then to really understand the lesson. And I think that’s one of the reasons why we’re kind of in a little bit of a cancel culture because we can’t deal with just a little, those difficult feelings. Gissele: That was my nice way of saying like, what’s going [00:29:00] on? Because we can’t deal with those feelings of being triggered, of being in conversation when we disagree. Yes. And so how do we lean into those difficult feelings so that then we could lean into each other and not away from one another? What are your thoughts? Deidre: Yes. So I call that I have a problem and I want you to fix it. That’s, that’s exactly what it is. Right? Right. Because when I’m triggered, that’s my problem. But we’re so used to saying things like you make me so mad. Yeah. Right. And attributing our emotions to somebody else. and as soon as we do that, then we place right blame and shame and guilt and all of that judgment on somebody else as opposed to, and this is, it’s a radical thought, but yet it’s also a very freeing thought as opposed to owning it. Deidre: Our totally ourselves. Again, taking this back into our leadership when [00:30:00] I fully own my emotions. I am mad now that you know Gissele, you said something or you did something. And first thought is it made me mad, as opposed to, and I got mad. Yeah. So that’s feedback for me that there’s work that I get to do. Deidre: ’cause I am the one that’s mad. It’s crazy for me to say, Gissele you gotta change what you said or change what you did. So I don’t get mad anymore. Right. And what people don’t. Absolutely. Yeah. But, but we’ve been trained to do that. Yeah. And what people don’t realize is that as soon as you do that, you actually give all your power away to somebody. Deidre: Correct. ’cause now they have the power to, do this and make you do this, or do this and make you do this. And, and as soon as you see that and realize that’s where the freeing part comes in, because now, okay, if I’m fully owning my emotions, my feelings, my my [00:31:00] triggers, then. I now have the ability to change and shift it. Deidre: Yeah. And it’s doesn’t rely on anyone else. Gissele: Absolutely. And as soon Deidre: as that happens, like you said, that, you know, the, the cancel culture will start going away. It’s like, oh my gosh. Nobody can make mistakes anymore. Yeah. Nobody can make human or your whole life will be wiped out. Gissele: Yeah,I completely agree with what you said because I truly. Gissele: I truly believe that if something triggers me, I immediately think, okay, what’s what’s going on for me? Like what’s, because if somebody says something that is hurtful, I’m like, oh, that’s where they’re, but if I get triggered by it, that’s an immediate sign that there’s something going on within me because why am I giving that thought? Gissele: The power. Deidre: Yes. Gissele: but. We don’t wanna accept responsibility because then we are responsible for what we have created and therefore, and it expands that we’re responsible for everything we’ve created. [00:32:00] Yes. And then sometimes that’s hard to admit but like you said, it’s the first step towards making a change and stepping up into our leadership. Gissele: Right. Deidre: Yes. and you’re absolutely right about that. And that is part of that, that is really scary. ’cause like you said, as soon as I realize, okay, I’m being triggered, there’s something going on, I get to do some some work around that. So I always advocate for network. Right. Develop your network, develop your inner circle so that there are people around to help support you so that, you know, you can see and kind of process through this in whatever way, shape, or form that looks like. Deidre: But going in and, and understanding that you’re triggered and owning it is kind of like okay, I have work to do here and as soon as. You recognize It. It’s like, oh, okay, okay, I can do something around it. And then you look around and you’re [00:33:00] like, oh crap, I got a whole bunch of stuff I gotta clean up. Deidre: That’s where the work begins. It’s like now I gotta go in and and clean up. Right? So if I haven’t set boundaries right, really good boundaries. ’cause you talked about that a little bit earlier. And now I have all of these appointments and I’m overwhelmed. Okay. To stay in integrity, I’m gonna follow through, and that’s me cleaning up. Deidre: And how can I make sure that I don’t continue to do that for myself? But meanwhile, I’ve gotta, I’ve gotta clean that up, right? Yeah. Gissele: That we got in the shed that we don’t wanna see, or in the basement that we’re like, I’m gonna check that out later. In order for you to change your life, you have to look at that. Gissele: and I do think that what’s happening in the world is kind of like all of those boxes coming out and being like, hello, remember me? Deidre: Oh Gissele: yeah. But they’re coming up to be healed. Right? They’re coming up to be seen and then reone. Deidre: [00:34:00] Yes. Gissele: So, it’s a good thing. But like you said, it’s a scary thing. Gissele: because then nobody else is at fault, right? Then we can’t say, hey, it’s their fault. Right? And that causes us shame and guilt and all these difficult emotions, which we of course are, you know, managing with compassion. Let’s talk about the importance of boundaries in terms of having more compassion for oneself. Gissele: How does, how does having boundaries really reinforce that love for ourselves? Deidre: Yes, and you know, Brene Brown, who, many of us know and love, does a lot of work in this area, so you can check out some of her resources around it. But when we’re talking about, true self-compassion. It goes hand in hand with boundaries. Deidre: You can’t be self-compassionate and have no boundaries. Yeah, because basically what you’re doing is you’re literally giving all of yourself away, right? Yeah. Well, if you’re giving all yourself away, where’s the self in that? And [00:35:00] this is hard for many, many of us. And you know, myself included, and it’s going to always be ongoing work. Deidre: So when we talk about, you know, boundaries, and again, in having that self-compassion, you said it earlier, we wanna give from our overflow, right? So whether you think of it as a bucket or whether you think of it as a well, or however you think about it, you wanna. But pour into yourself so much that, like you said, you were giving from your overflow. Deidre: Not the bucket itself. The bucket is you. Yeah. And so it goes back to what they always keep telling us on the plane. And there’s a really, really important reason they tell. Yeah. Was on the plane. Yeah. Is you right? If you’re sitting with somebody, you know that you need to help you give the oxygen mask first because if you don’t, you’re gonna end up passing out and both of you or all of you are dead. Deidre: Yeah. Andwe don’t think about that in our day-to-day lives, [00:36:00] and we keep. Pulling from our internal wells, right? Or our internal bucket. And we wonder why we’re overwhelmed or burnt down and fried. So when we’re self-compassionate, self-compassion is really about saying no, right? and it’s not no to everybody and no to everything, but it’s being discerning. Deidre: So let’s set up some criteria And if you’re not comfortable with saying no, then I suggest setting up criteria for what you’re gonna say yes to. ’cause some of us aren’t quite in that place where we can, oh, I don’t like to say no, we don’t feel good. just. Means we get to do work there. And in the meantime, let’s work on criteria for saying yes. Deidre: What does yes feel like for you? And let’s be really clear so that when things come in, you take it through this framework of your yes. Yes. Gissele: Yes. I love that. I actually have a reframe what I say sometimes when I say it, I say, mentally says, [00:37:00] A no to you is a yes to myself. Yes. Because I’m like, okay, so I’m saying no to you because I can’t, it’s either not aligning with my values or I’m trying to scrape things for me. Gissele: Nevermind giving it. You. And so a no to you is a yes for me. but for those of you who might not be comfortable with that, I like. The thinking about, what are the things that I can say yes to? What are the things that really align with my highest joy and my values and everything else that I want to do? Deidre: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And, and again, just thinking about that, right? It’s kind of like this idea of you know, who do I wanna be? And let’s face it when you’re showing up because you said yes when you really wanted to say no. That’s where the resentment comes in. Yeah. In fact, that’s one of the characteristics that there’s a boundary crossing. Deidre: Whether somebody crossed it or you, you gave that boundary away or you weren’t consistent in it, is when [00:38:00] you’re feeling resentful. That’s typically means, oh, boundary issue here. So, you know, just a thought out there for your listeners, but you know, you’re going to show up all cranked or, resentful Deidre: So is that who you want to be when you show up and you’re around people and, you’re precious again, it goes back to, Deidre: Self-worth. you’re just so absolutely precious. And because you are so precious, you get to again, be really discerning who you get to share yourself with. Gissele: Yeah. Gissele: Yeah. Thank you for saying that, that was so good. I I was thinking about, I’m in my general life, I’m very good at saying no when I don’t mean no, except for my kids. Gissele: but you’re right. when I say yes, and I mean, no, I do it in a resentful manner. Like I’ll say yes, but I’m like, I’ll cough and puff, and I’m like, okay, this is not how I wanted to do this. So that’s one of the areas that I’m working on is really saying no with my [00:39:00] kids. Gissele: Right? Yeah. Because I just have this. Desire to give them everything. And, I just love them so much but at the same time, I’m not teaching them to honor their boundaries when I don’t honor my boundaries. Deidre: Yes. Gissele: And so, and I Deidre: say that all the time, Yeah. No, I, I’m just agreeing with you. Right. Just raising my, own kids. Deidre: It’s like, you know, what do we want from them? And just remember we’re modeling 24 7. Yeah. So if we’re not, you know, honoring our boundaries and sharing with them And saying, no, I can’t do this, and this is why. Right. to help our children understand the why. Deidre: Because, you know, because I just have a really, hard week this week and I just don’t have, the energy. And if I go, I’m just gonna be really cranky and nasty and that’s not how I wanna be with you. I wanna go and just. Really enjoy myself. Can we make a rain check? [00:40:00] Yeah, I’m just making stuff up about No, no, this is, people need to write Gissele: this down, but Deidre: great. Deidre: What’s a great thing about a podcast, right? It’s recorded. You can go back and And listen to it. Exactly. You can go back Gissele: and listen to it. Yeah. Deidre: Yes, Gissele: absolutely. Absolutely. Deidre: But add the, the why there so that we’re helping our children to understand why we do what we’re doing, so that as they. Grow up and learn, they can start using again that same level of discernment and decision making and thought process for themselves. Gissele: Agreed. Agreed. And for me, I think it goes back to being socialized to think what makes a good mother. Being a good mother is an important thing for me, like making sure that my kids are, happy, healthy, provided for you know, it’s one of my dreams I guess, that my kids are, well, that they’re supported, that they feel loved, that they feel accepted, that they feel like they belong, that they have a safe space and that they have [00:41:00] what they need. Gissele: but I’ve had some misconceptions as to what that means. It doesn’t mean I deplete myself to give to them. It means that I, again, give from their overflow and show them how to fill their own cups, right? Mm-hmm. But I’ve had to unlearn that. I’ve had to unlearn that and. Gissele: Realize that they weren’t the problem. It was me like in the words of Taylor Swift, I’m the problem. It’s me. But in a compassionate way, obviously. Deidre: Yes. Gissele: Well, Deidre: well, and you’re talking about feedback, right? When you’re talking about that compassionate, it’s not blame or shame. Yeah. It’s, oh, this is feedback for me. Deidre: Yeah. So it gives me the opportunity to shift and change how I show up in the future. That’s self-compassion. Gissele: Yeah. Agree. Agree. So we’re coming up to the end. I have two more questions for you. The first one is, what is your definition of unconditional love? Deidre: I’m just gonna pick up right on self-compassion. Deidre: When we’re [00:42:00] truly grounded in it, then our love for ourselves and then for others becomes unconditional beautiful. So Im gonna pair those two together. Gissele: Beautiful. Where can people find you? Where can they come work with you? Where can they just reach out to you? So just let people know where they can. Gissele: Sure, find yourself. Deidre: So they can find me up on my website, which is www.teamagreements.com. Literally you spell it how it says team agreements.com or if you wanna reach out to me by email, it would be Deidre, D-E-I-D-R-E dot Harris, H-A-R-R-I-S at. Team agreements.com. Nice. Beautiful. And I’d love to hear from your listeners. Gissele: Oh yeah, definitely. Thank you so much, for this amazing conversation, I mean we could speak for weeks. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and I hope people do reach out to you. And join us once again for another episode of The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Deidre: Thank you. [00:43:00] Bye.

Gissele: [00:00:00] With Martin Luther King, Jr Wright, does love have the power to turn an enemy into a friend? Gissele: Does it have the power to heal? we’re creating an inspiring documentary, courage to love the Power of Compassion, which explores their extraordinary stories of those who have chosen to do the unthinkable, love and forgive even those who are most hurtful. Through their journeys, we will uncover the profound impact of forgiveness and love. Gissele: Have not only of those offering it, but also on those receiving it.  In addition, we’ll hear from experts who will explore whether love and compassion are part of our human nature. And how we can bridge divides with those with disagree with. If you’d like to support our film, please donate a www M-A-I-T-R-I-C-E-N-T-R e.com/documentary. Gissele: That’s maitricentre.com/documentary. Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion [00:01:00] Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking about how love binds us with others, including those of crossed over. Gissele: We’ll be talking with Rebecca Schaper about communicating with animals on the other side after the sudden and unexpected passing of Rebecca Schaper dog’s. Gus. She consulted animal communicator Sonny Mann, beginning a lengthy and revealing correspondence. Gissele: Sonny reported her dialogue with Gus in the afterlife at various times throughout the next year. This moving story includes the transcripts of those psychic sessions, along with Rebecca’s notes from her daily journal as she responds to both the earthly and spiritual guidance from Gus. His spirit describes his life in both worlds. Gissele: He urges her to embrace fully her life contract as a Shamaic practitioner and healer. Please join me in [00:02:00] welcoming Rebecca. Gissele: Hi, Rebecca. Hi. Rebecca: Thank you so much for having me. I’m looking forward to this wonderful conversation. Gissele: Thank you so much for being on the show. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about how you started this journey of, communicating with Gus on the other side. Rebecca: Sure. 2023. My dog Gus died unexpectedly on December 7th. Mm-hmm. he was six years old. He was my co-pilot. He was definitely my soul dog. It was as though we knew each other in the past life and we communicated to each other telepathically, and of course it broke my heart wide open. To the point where I was worse than losing my parents by suicide and. Rebecca: I’ve never felt grief like that in my life. So in January of [00:03:00] 2024, which was a month after he had passed away, I decided to reach out to a pet communicator because I knew I needed help. and I knew I could not do this on my own. Normally, I can work through situations. I’ve had some real trauma in my life, which I’m grateful for. Rebecca: because it’s definitely led me to a lot of love and compassion like your show. But I knew at this point I definitely needed help. So I communicated with Sonny, asked her if she’d be willing to communicate with my dog, Guss. And what she would do is she would, go into some type of trance is the correct. Rebecca: Word to use, but she was just able to have that strong telepathic connection and she would ask him questions. And then after she was done, I mean it wore her out. She told me, she said, it’s [00:04:00] very taxing on the body. And so after she was done with that first session. I was blown away with what, with what the information she had told me. Rebecca: And so fast forward, we had 10 sessions, so she would transcribe ’em to me because she lived in Australia and the time zone was difficult. And a couple of times we chatted with each other and then I would journal my comments to the comments between Gus and Sonny this book is a three way conversation and so there you go. Rebecca: And it, she was really able to provide a lot of healing for me. And Gissele: what were some of the messages thatwere unique to you in Gus’s experience that most people wouldn’t have known? Rebecca: Yes, I will definitely share a few. One of ’em was she saw the word beck [00:05:00] and Gus said, that’s my mom, Beck, her brother David calls her Beck and. Rebecca: There’s no way that Sonny would’ve known that. I mean, there’s just no way. Because he was communicating to her. He said, yes, that’s my mom. Beck, her brother David calls her back. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rebecca: And then another one, which I felt was really profound. We hiked to Machu Picchu and the day one of the days was on my husband’s and i’s anniversary and I had to look down and there was, I wish I had it with me, but I think it’s on the altar table, Rebecca: it had a heart shaped stone. And I thought, oh my God, on that anniversary, how beautiful. So I kept it with me. Fast forward after Gus had passed away, I was sitting outside [00:06:00] and I was doing some meditation and just kind of working through, Rebecca: really tapping into the stone and some other stones I collected accidentally dropped the heart stone and it broken three pieces. Hmm. And I thought to myself, oh my gosh, is this a sign saying that my heart is broken? Of Gus. So I was devastated. Rebecca: The next day, I walked down, I go to this fire pit’s made outta stone and Guss and my daughter’s dog, Stella would always get on top of that fire pit and they would walk around it and try to find chipmunks. So this was like, you know, a constant thing. So anyway, I would go and put my bird seed on top of the rim of the fire pit so I could feed the birds. And I just happened to look down and there was a heart stone, almost the same shape and size. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rebecca: And, to me I [00:07:00] was like, that. So profound and so stunning and it just warmed my heart completely. And, another one, I’m at my beach house now. Rebecca: We have this area where you can look out over the marsh, and he would always be with me in a red chair is a cushion. And he talked about the red chair and the fire pit looking out over the marsh to her. Mm-hmm. So there’s many more, but that’s what comes to the forefront to me as of now. Gissele: Were there any messages from Sonny and Gus around the relationship between human beings and animals and even the connection and nature that we might have lost? Rebecca: Oh, most definitely. Rebecca: I felt like Gus was trying to communicate, saying they always want to be with you. Gissele: Hmm. Always. Rebecca: they’re always there, They definitely can talk to [00:08:00] you. even the most subtle ways. They speak to you, they can speak to you through songs, which Gus used to speak to me through songs. Rebecca: There’s one of my favorite songs over the Rainbow. And they were unbelievable synchronicities when that song would come on when I was grieving. Mm-hmm. And I knew that was him. They communicate through numbers, they communicate, they can communicate in so many ways. One of the key factors is, is being aware of it Rebecca: It’s to me. It has opened my eyes wide open to whole different realms of communication and not just dogs, cats, any type of animal in nature. Rebecca: ’cause I am very much in tune with nature and they are here to help us. We just have to open up our hearts. [00:09:00] Open up our hearts and listen. trust is a big issue. And one other thing every time I would get a message that I knew intuitively, I knew that was something from Gus. Rebecca: I felt it in my body. I would always say thank you. I would. Be very heartfelt in saying thank you because it’s a gift. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. It’s amazing how we’ve been taught that we are separate from animals and that there’s this hierarchy. Gissele: And so it probably is challenging for people to. To understand or believe that they can communicate with animals. there’s not this hierarchy that somehow human beings know better. Do you believe that people sort of have a contract or agreement even with their animals before they incarnate? Rebecca: Absolutely. Absolutely. I know I did with Gus and now we have a new dog, [00:10:00] Zeke. Gissele: Hmm. Rebecca: And he is from the same breed and from the same breeder, and how synchronicity led up to that. And he’s into my life for a reason as well. Mm. There is no doubt in my mind. I mean, I think about animals. You think about your family. Rebecca: I believe is a contract. Rebecca: if people will look for the lessons and the connection, or even if you’re out and about and you see somewhere and you’re like, God, that energy feels very similar. I feel like I know that person. Rebecca: That could be. A contract soul connection, but you just may not know at that time. Gissele: Yeah. is there some specific practices that you use to help you get in tune? Because sometimes our own emotions can get in the way. Gissele: I lost my dog last November and. I’m very, very grateful for the lessons and the being that he was. Gissele: But I also miss him a lot. [00:11:00] And I know my kids are eager to get another dog, but I’m just like, Gissele: It’s not the right time and I don’t want another dog. I want my dog back. Which is, can we pause Yeah. Rebecca: if you put that intention out Gissele: mm-hmm. Rebecca: Ask your dog. You can have your dog reincarnate and soul dog a new dog, but you’ll know. Gissele: True. Rebecca: you’ll know if you’re supposed to, and that dog, I promise, if you’re open and expanded to it and ask, it will happen. Gissele: my challenge Rebecca is, I also don’t wanna be the type of person that would hold back another soul for my own ego needs, right? Like my dog’s time with me was very, very special and he taught me so much. Gissele: But maybe his journey is to go on and do something else. Like I would never want to hold another soul hostage for my own needs. [00:12:00] And I think that’s what’s been preventing me from. Making that desire request. I’ve heard of from people, lots of different people like yourself included, talking about like, my dog has been reincarnated into this new dog. Gissele: I can feel it. And there signs and all of that stuff. That is wonderful. But I think one of the things my dog taught me was that, that loving without attachment and needing to hold onto the soul. the ability to be able to be grateful for the experiences we had and be open to different experiences. Gissele: I Rebecca: hear you and I validate exactly what you’re saying because I found myself the pain was so excruciating that I found myself forcing Gus to come back. Yeah. And I came to a point where I can’t do this. Gissele: Yeah. Rebecca: I can’t force it. If he’s supposed to come back, [00:13:00] then so be it. And I had to let go. Mm-hmm. So maybe in your situation, just say if, if it’s meant to be. It will be. If not, then you’re grateful for the time together. And that’s kind of how I’m at. Yeah. And I understand. Yeah. But I’ve heard people where their dogs have reincarnated. Rebecca: It’s pretty astounding some of the stories. Gissele: Mm-hmm. definitely. And I like what you said in terms of our willingness to let go because. Maybe my dog’s journey is to reincarnate and come back in a different way and have a different experience. Or maybe it’s not, I think it’s that willingness which I in the past have not had. Gissele: I think I it’s like you said, totally normal grieve those experiences. It was my first dog ever. and he was just so special And I didn’t wanna replace that dog and expect another dog to take that place, so, [00:14:00] Rebecca: exactly. Yeah. A lot of people feel guilty about Rebecca: that. Rebecca: And I felt guilty about that too. And I thought, okay, it’s amazing how Zeke, how everything aligned and am I going to love this dog as much as I did? Gus, am I gonna be fair Rebecca: to this? Rebecca: But it’s pretty incredible the gifts and the lessons that Zeke is showing us. And I do, I honestly say, and my husband feels this too, we do see Gus kind of soul dogging Zeke at times. Rebecca: I was told they’re brothers Gissele: Yeah, for sure. Rebecca: You’ll figure Speaker 9: it out. Gissele: How did compassion and love help you through the grieving process? Because every, all of us experience loss, Rebecca: My situation with Gus losing a dog or losing parents by suicide, that really opened up. My [00:15:00] heart opened up my compassion and to see other people suffering who have may have gone through that same trauma, Rebecca: it opens my heart up because I can hold space with that person. sometimes we wanna fix it for the individual, but it’s not our place to fix it. Gissele: did the fact that you don’t believe in death. I mean if you, if you went right away after your loss to find someone to communicate them, you must not believe in death. Gissele: Did that actually help you overcome ’cause to lose parents, to lose a dog that was your soul dog? Those, those are fairly significant losses. Did that awareness help you not feel grief in the same way? And what helped you gain that understanding that maybe there’s a little bit more to life than just this bag of bones in this particular experience and [00:16:00] time? Rebecca: Very good question. Rebecca: Mm-hmm. both of my parents dying by suicide and my brother passing away, I saw my mother at the doorway after she, passed away, I was able to connect with my father and my brother. There were ways that I could connect with him, so that helped me a lot because it gave me a sense that it’s not final. Rebecca: they’re still there. they’re the ones that still wanna help your path, your journey, your life here. And I believe that even though it was a difficult childhood, but I was same time, I was very blessed because it wouldn’t have been able to, do the documentary to help others, all of that. Rebecca: It, it was a curse, but a blessing in the same way. And I’m forever grateful for it. And I, to this day, and until I die, I will always believe [00:17:00] that. My life steps have been interesting situations, but it has just opened up so much more. And different ways to look at death. Rebecca: I do not think death is final Gissele: though. Yeah. And I think that’s one of like the biggest hurdles that humanity has to overcome. I think that our fear of death is so huge that I think if we could realize that there isn’t death, not death in the way that we perceive it to be, that we stop existing and we’re just nothing we think that’ll open up people to be more courageous and to truly live their dreams. Gissele: But I think people’s fear of death can feel really challenging and It’s hard for us to understand that there is much more beyond even if you’ve had spiritual experiences to truly believe that, this life is just one chapter in a larger book of this being that encompasses this [00:18:00] particular body. Rebecca: I’m one of those that I know I’ll reincarnate again. Think about our ancestors. Gissele: Yeah. Rebecca: they’re here to help. Even on the land of wherever you walk, everywhere you go, the ancestors are there to help. Rebecca: It’s just opening, opening and expanding yourself Gissele: to tune Rebecca: in. Gissele: Yeah, so were you aware before your communication with Gus that you had a life contract as a Shamanic practitioner and healer? Or was it something that you discovered in your communication with Gus, through Sonny or Personally? Rebecca: I’ve always wanted. To do that. you know, it’s interesting you say that ’cause I go back and look in my journals and I have written years and years that that’s what I wanted to [00:19:00] do. And so prior to Gus’s death, it was, 23 in October is when I started working with the shamans Rebecca: And when Gus passed away, he was pushing me on the other side I don’t know how he knew that. You know, here’s the thing. I think dogs, even though we’re, if I was standing in right here, and say, Zeke or Gus was here, they’re so in tune to what we do energetically Rebecca: I’m sure Gus was in tune to what I was doing Gissele: so what are some of the things you’ve learned from your shamanic teachers about sort of this consciousness evolution that human beings seem to be going through? Rebecca: it’s a balance between here and the upper world. Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. We Rebecca: try to walk that balance, and the best way I can explain for myself is just Exude as much light as I can and be the true [00:20:00] person that I am. Of course, there are days where I can be crunchy you know, I’m human, but I can get myself back into balance and I just, Rebecca: I don’t like focusing on all the chaos and bringing a negative energy to that because I think that exacerbates it. I just try to be a positive light and maybe just saying hello to some person you don’t know, a smile on their face, who’s to say you may have made their day. Rebecca: Simple things like that. Gissele: Yeah, and I think you said two key things. Number one is the balance. I think that if we, each of us individually on our journeys found a balance, then I think that then we could create systems that were more balanced than they currently are now, and have leaders that, you know, reflect that balance. Gissele: And you [00:21:00] mentioned the importance of. Little tiny things. People think, well, you know, we gotta fix the war in Gaza. Or, you know, there’s all these other wars that are happening that are not being reported. Just living a life of love and compassion and light and kindness towards others. Like you said has a ripple effect. Gissele: ’cause many people, they’re war within their own homes. Yes. They’re in war, within their own relationships and they, they’re not willing to fix war, fix it Rebecca: themselves. Gissele: Yeah. And they’re not willing to fix that. But then they wanna fix the world, which really doesn’t make a lot of sense because the world really is a mirror of all of us. Gissele: And so fixing ourselves I think would go a long way and, and really. Helping us heal as, as a humanity, right? Rebecca: Yes. And, I also believe we’re having to, go through all this Hmm. To get to the light. [00:22:00] Truly, this is a very phenomenal time right now in history. It certainly feels phenomenal. Rebecca: but, it’s like clearing all the stuff to get to where we really wanna be. I know it’s tough, but Yeah. We just have to stay strong and stay in joy. Try to stay in joy. I go in nature all the time. Mm-hmm. that’s my balanced place. Nature. Gissele: Yeah. Rebecca: Yeah. And no doubt. Gissele: Yeah, definitely. And what helps you stay in Joy when it feels like sometimes the world is so chaotic, or When our minds are so chaotic. What helps you stay in joy? You mentioned nature. Are there any other things that you do to keep Rebecca: your joy? my dog, my husband, my family. Rebecca: Of course, when I wake up and I look at the sunrise, it’s just an experience that I have and that brings me such joy and [00:23:00] I’m make it a point to do that every day and close the evening. Same way watching the sunset. Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Because it’s very important to me. Gissele: Yeah. appreciating all the beauty, yes. That already exists that’s one of the issues with electronics, right? Like people really focus on their social media or electronics, but we’re missing all the beauty and the wonder that is outside, that is present right now. Rebecca: Yes. It’s, even the subtle things in life. Mm-hmm. Yes. It’s like stepping out and seeing an incredible cardinal. The coloring. Gissele: Yeah. So going back to the conversation with animals. So did the relationship with Sonny and in conversation with Gus help you then become more attuned with communicating with other animals? Rebecca: Yes. Gissele: What about insects? I Rebecca: I struggle with the insects. I have to be honest here and I, ’cause I’m very honest. [00:24:00] Speaker 7: Yeah. I often Rebecca: since insects except for fleas, mosquitoes and roaches and ticks. I’ll just try to scoop it up and put it outside. Rebecca: Mm-hmm. Somewhere I got a tick on the back of me two weeks ago, I know they’re all part of creation, but there’s just something about that. Gissele: nice. There’s a real struggle there’s an aspect of me that is like everything is of God and source universe, right? Gissele: And I’m not separate from anything. And at the same time, there’s a small part of me that still sees herself as a victim, which is like, that could bite me and has bit me. that could hurt me So I don’t wanna experience that. And so that memory, it’s hard for me to be in that kind of harmony with nature in that sense and see myself as not separate from it. Rebecca: I really try to get in that mindset, but when that insect does something Rebecca: to my [00:25:00] animal, to my dog, I, Rebecca: Do what I gotta do. Gissele: I wonder why they cause so much chaos. My husband and I were talking about this like where did this mosquitoes come from? Gissele: There’s this country that doesn’t have mosquitoes. I can’t remember which country it is. Apparently they’ve Rebecca: really weird. Yeah, Gissele: that’s what I was trying to remember. I don’t know. I saw it on social media. Gissele: I don’t know is it possible for us to live in harmony with all beings? Rebecca: That’s a really good question, and I think it’s a really. Tough one for a lot of people because you know, if you’re being infested by mosquitoes or stinging flies. Rebecca: That’s, yeah. Well, Gissele: my daughter was saying, because we go for walks, If you wear a dragonfly hat, the bugs will not bug you because Dragonflies are a natural predator. Oh yeah, because, so I order some from Amazon. Rebecca: Oh my God. Gissele: What is it called? Share [00:26:00] Dragon. Fly clips. So this was all over TikTok just a fake dragonfly that you can clip on your hat or you can clip it somewhere in your body and they will not come near you because they’ll think that it’s a real dragonfly and dragonflies are natural predators and so they won’t come near you. Gissele: Yeah. I haven’t tried it yet, but I’ve ordered it Rebecca: I do use, use all natural repellents like garlic. Yeah. Or apple cider vinegar. I’ve heard that works. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, Gissele: There’s hope. There is absolutely hope so that we don’t have to harm them and they can leave us alone. Gissele: So, yeah, it’s like, hopefully that works because I don’t wanna kill them and I don’t wanna put bug off stuff on my person. they have a right to exist. I just have a right to not be bitten. So if the dragonflies can help me, that would be good. Rebecca: I’m going to get that. Rebecca: I love it. Gissele: So tell us a little bit about your book. When does it come out? Rebecca: Okay. It, it was published April 9th. Oh, nice. Gissele: Okay. Rebecca: And it’s on Amazon. People can order it on [00:27:00] Amazon, and if people wanna reach out to me, it’s rebeccaschaper.com. Gissele: Sounds good. and you have a previous book you said. Rebecca: Yes, it’s the backbone of the Sister’s Call documentary that I had a calling to. Rebecca: That’s a whole different story. And then the light in his soul lessons from my brother’s schizophrenia. here’s one thing I would love for your audience to take away, is you think you’re going down one way with your career. I had no idea. I’m not a filmmaker. Rebecca: I’m not a writer. I had never written a book, any of that, but I had people walk into my life. So you have people. That help you for your purpose, and the universe will course correct you. You’re like, okay, I got this calling, so I need to listen and I need to make it happen. Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. I totally agree with that. Gissele: That has been [00:28:00] my experience as well, in terms of being called to do something. I never thought like this podcast is one of ’em, right. I thought I was gonna be working within the child welfare system until the day that I died. And so, yeah, like doing some of the things I’ve done were sort of like a higher calling, but not anything that my ego self had thought or desired. Gissele: Right. Right. none of these things were in my plan. Rebecca: Yeah. It comes totally unexpected. You’re like, what? It’s like a download and Gissele: Yeah, and, The interesting part is that sometimes it doesn’t mean what you think it means either, right? so like you was guided to write a book and then I thought, well, maybe the book is it. Gissele: This is what I’m gonna do, and it did well. But then that wasn’t supposed to be the thing. Because then because of the book, I did a TEDx talk and because of the TEDx talk, I’m now doing this documentary, so it’s steps I couldn’t have put [00:29:00] together. and what you had said earlier, it takes an enormous amount of trust. Gissele: Yes. even with communicating with animals on the other side. It takes trust because it goes against the grain of what we’ve been taught. We’ve been taught that, you know, seeing is believing, right? it’s only what I can physically touch or feel with my senses that is real or truth. what helped you gain trust in your life in that inner guidance or voice? Rebecca: Doing the documentary, it took 14 years. Gissele: Oh, wow. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about it? Rebecca: Sure. It’s a documentary about my families when I was growing up. There’s sexual abuse in there. there’s alcoholism talked about in there. There’s suicide talked about in there. And mental health. Both my mother and brother were quote. Rebecca: Diagnosed with [00:30:00] paranoid schizophrenia, and to this day, I’ll never believe that. I think they were hearing other dimensions, but anyway. Mm-hmm. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Rebecca: My brother left and was missing for 20 years, but I always knew he was alive, always, and through a miracle. It was time for us to find each other and he was the catalyst of the film. Rebecca: And that’s when I got this calling. And I wanted to, express to people that he’s not this diagnosis. He is a person’s he is an incredible loving individual very. Observant and he passed away 2012. his contract was up and but the thing is, I learned so much through doing all of this and I hope that people were, able to relate [00:31:00] that. Rebecca: having, medication isn’t always the cure and I fought for that for a long time. So it’s a very vulnerable, very transparent, it speaks the truth and it’s a tough film to watch but it’s a also a very happy film.And it gives people hope and it’s through forgiveness and compassion. Gissele: Which I feel are very important messages. It’s interesting. I used to work at somewhere called cmh, which was a center for mental health and addictions. And I used to help as a student run a social program for people who were diagnosed with schizophrenia. And I remember having a conversation with individuals and they would talk about how. Gissele: The awareness that they had when they would have episodes some of the reasons why they didn’t take their medication, especially young women, they would gain weight. And so they didn’t feel that the doctors always understood the [00:32:00] other impacts of the medication and the stigma that they felt that was out there like every person who is diagnosed with schizophrenia is violent. Gissele: And somehow it’s gonna lead to them killing someone, which was not true at all. These people were very kind and generous, and, compassionate. and vulnerable. They were more vulnerable to harm themselves than to harm someone else. But there’s always this misconception because there’s always so much fear you know, fear causes us to kind of dehumanize others, right? Gissele: Because we’re so stuck in survival. Documentaries like yours and conversations really help us have more compassion for others when we have greater understanding that just because somebody’s going through something does not mean that they’re gonna harm someone else. Gissele: And so I think that’s a very important message. Rebecca: Absolutely. And I felt like that with the voices that he was hearing, because he was extremely empathic. [00:33:00] Gissele: Mm-hmm. And Rebecca: he was just tuning in. And my mother, same thing. They were tuning in and they didn’t know how to channel all these voices that they were hearing from dimensions. Gissele: of course. Yeah, So last question. What is your definition of unconditional love? Rebecca: Oh, that’s such a good question. Hmm. Seeing the person for who they really are Gissele: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca: Let them be seen for who they really are without any judgment. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. You could remove the lens of judgment. We could see each other as as authentically as we truly are. Exactly the beautiful way to end. Rebecca: Thank you, and I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Yeah. I’m so glad we could connect. Gissele: Yes, me too. Thank you so, so much for being [00:34:00] on the show, and thank you for those who tune into the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele Rebecca: Bye bye. Thank you.

Gissele: [00:00:00] was Martin Luther King, Jr. Wright, does love have the power to transform an enemy into a friend. We’re currently working on a documentary showcasing people doing extraordinary things such as loving. Those who are most hurtful in this documentary will showcase extraordinary stories of forgiveness, reconciliation, and transformation. You’d like to find out more about our documentary, www M-A-I-T-R-I-C-E-N-T-R-E com slash documentary. Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking with Larry Rosen about whether enemies can come together in dialogue. Larry is the founder of a mediation law practice. Through understanding he has helped thousands craft enduring solutions to [00:01:00] crippling conflicts, millions have watched this popular TEDx talk with secret understanding humans whose insights informs the enemy’s project. From 2024, Larry completed writing the novel, the Enemy Dance, posing the question, must the society riven by tribalism descend into war or can it heal itself? Larry is a graduate of UCLA School of Law, where he served as editor of the Law Review and received numerous academic awards. Growing up, Larry was both the bully and the bullied. The one who was cruel and the one who was kind, he was sometimes popular. And sometimes friendless. He had many fist fights with kids who became his friends. He had his very own chair at the principal’s office. He believes that his peacemaking today is born out of the callousness and empathy that he knew as childhood. [00:02:00] Please join me in welcoming Larry. Hi, Larry. Larry: Hi there. That, it’s funny because that la last piece that you read about my, you know, the, the principal’s office that’s on my website, I’ve never had someone read that back to me and it brought me a little bit to tears, like, oh, that poor kid. Yeah, I, I don’t hear that very often. So anyway, Gissele: yeah. Oh, I really loved it when I saw it, and I could relate to it because I’ve also been both. when we hurt other people, we wanna be forgiven, but when people hurt us, you don’t always wanna forgive, right? Mm-hmm. So it gives you the different perspective. I’m so thrilled to have you on the show. And how I actually came to know about your project is, so I’m a professor at a university and I teach research and ethics. And, what I had discovered about my students is that many of them don’t come with the ability to do the critical thinking, to be able to hold both sides. Many of them come thinking there’s gotta be a right answer, and there’s a right way of doing things. Just tell us what the answer is. [00:03:00] And so for my students, I get them to write a paper where they tell me the things they feel really strongly about. Then they’re researching the opposing perspective using credible sources. because trolls are easy to dismiss, right? So credible sources, the opposing perspective, and then they are supposed to, so tell me what are their main points? You know, like why do they believe what they do? And and are you really that different? Right? And then the last part of the paper is. Talk about the emotions you feel and throughout the year I prepare them in terms of being able to handle it. So I teach them mindfulness, I teach them self-compassion so that they can hold because it’s really difficult to hold posing perspective. What? It’s research and ethics. I do it for my, ’cause one of my research interests is compassion. And so, and I was a director of one of the departments I had was hr. And what I noticed was when people had conflict, it was the inability to regulate themselves, to sit in a [00:04:00] conversation that prevented them from going anywhere. And so what I do in my classes, like I’ll do like a minute, like maybe five minutes, three minutes, right before the start of class, I’ll teach mindfulness or like a self-compassion practice and we talk about it all year. And then at the end of the year they’ll do a, a paper where they do the opposing perspective. Then at the end they talk about the emotions they feel. So, and, and they can do that through music. They could do that through a photograph. They could do that through an art project or they just use text. They say, oh, I felt this. I felt that. And so it was in my students researching for their papers that they encountered your project. And they were blown away. They were so, so happy about it. And I like, I’ve watched the episodes. They were amazing . And so that’s why I wanted to have you on the show. And so I was wondering if you could start by telling the audience a little bit about the Enemies project and how you got inspired to do this work. Larry: So the Enemies Project is a [00:05:00] docuseries where I bring together people who are essentially enemies, people of really dramatically different viewpoints, who pretty much don’t like each other. And so an example is a trans woman and a, a woman who is maga who believes trans people belong to mental institutions a Palestinian and a Zionist Jew and, and lots of other combinations. And the goal is not to debate. There are lots of places where you can see debates and I allow them to argue it out for a few minutes to, to show what doesn’t work. And then I bring them through kind of a different process where they. Understand each other deeply, which basically means live in each other’s viewpoint, really ultimately be able to, like you’re trying to do in your class as well. Have them express each other’s viewpoint. And that is a transforming process for them. Usually when they do it in each other’s presence. And it, you know, it has hiccups which is part of the process, but it goes really [00:06:00] deep. And so ultimately these people who hate each other end up almost always saying, I really admire you. I like you. I would be your friend. And sometimes they say, I love you. And usually they hug and there’s deep affection for each other at the end. And they’re saying to the camera or to, you know, their viewers, like, please be kind to this person. This person’s now my friend. And that is for me important because. Like you probably, and probably most of your listeners, I’m tired of what’s happening in society. I am tired of being manipulated. I think we’re all being manipulated by what I call enemy makers. People who profit from division financially, politically they’re usually political leaders and media leaders. And we’re all being taken. And the big lie at the center of it is that people on the other side, ordinary people on the other side are bad or evil. That’s the, the dark heart lie at the [00:07:00] center of it. And if we believe that we’ll follow these leaders, we’ll follow them because we all want to defeat evil. We all must defeat evil. And so what I’m trying to do in this project is unravel that lie by showing that people on the other side are just us. Yeah. And they too have been manipulated and we’ve been manipulated. So and it’s gone well, it’s gone really well. You know, there have been, we’ve been, we’ve done eight or nine episodes and we have in various forms of media, been seen tens of millions of times in the last five months. And we have, I think, 175,000 followers on different media. And the comments are just really, from my perspective, surprisingly, kind of off the chart powerful. Like this has changed tens of thousands of comments of just this is, this is in. Sometimes I’ve, I cried throughout or it’s actually changed my life. I see people differently. So it’s, it is been really, it’s really great to have that feedback and, and then we have plans for the future, which I can tell you [00:08:00] about later. But yeah, but that’s, that’s the basic background. The reason I got into it I don’t know if you have kids, but for me, kids are the great motivator. You know, the next generation, probably people who don’t have kids also are motivated for the next generation as well. We, I care deeply about what I’m leaving my kids and other people’s kids, you know, they all touch my heart and I, I feel really terrible about the mess we’re believing them in, and I feel terrible about what humanity is inheriting. And so I want to have an influence on that. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things I love about your docuseries is that the intent isn’t to change anyone’s mind. The intent is for people to feel heard and seen, and that is so, so powerful. It makes me think of Daryl Davis about how he went. Do you know the story of Daryl Davis? I don’t like jazz musician. So he’s a black jazz musician who when, since he was little, he wondered why people were racist. So what he did was actually go [00:09:00] to KKK rallies and speak to KKK leaders. Yeah, Larry: I have heard, yeah. Gissele: Yeah. He didn’t mean to change anyone. He just wanted to offer them respect, which you, as you say, is fundamental and just wanted to understand. And in that understanding, he created those conditions too that led people to change . And so I think that’s the same thing that your docuseries is offering. Larry: Absolutely. I mean, you can see it so easily that Yeah, as soon as one person hears the other person, the person who was heard is the one who changes. you don’t change the other person by telling them your story and by convincing them of anything. It’s when you hear them and hear what their true intention has been and what’s going on in their life, that’s when they change. It’s the fastest road to their change really. But if you go in with that objective, then they won’t change. So there’s kind of a, you know, an irony or a paradox embedded in this, but usually both people move [00:10:00] toward each other, is what happens. Yeah. Gissele: I want the audience to understand how brilliant this is because, I don’t know if you know Deeyah Khan, she’s a documentarian and she interviewed people from the KKK And one of the things we noticed in all those interviews was that many people hate others. They’re people that they’ve never met. They’ve never met people in that group, but they hate them. So, Larry: yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting just to hear that. Yeah. Gissele: Yeah. So how does the Enemies project help challenge misconceptions about groups that have never met each other, carry beliefs about the other? Larry: Well, so far really hasn’t because everybody who we’ve done a show with has met people from the other side. Gissele: Oh, Larry: okay. You know, it’s not like because thus far with the, with I think one or two exceptions, everyone’s been an American. So in, in the United States, everybody’s gonna meet somebody else. they’re not friends with them, they’re not deeply connected with them. But from my perspective it, it doesn’t [00:11:00] matter. You know, you can be from the most different tribes who’ve never met each other, we’re all gonna be the same. the process never differs. we don’t start with politics. My view is that starting with politics, which is how some, some people who try to bring others together to find common ground, start with politics, and that’s not going to work. What I start with is rapport. You know, as soon as you start with something that a person is defensive over, you’re gonna put up, they’re gonna be wearing armor, and they’re going to try to defeat the other person. So we exit that process and we really just help them understand what’s beautiful in each other’s lives, what’s challenging in each other’s lives, and they, there’s no question that as soon as you see what’s beautiful in someone else’s life or challenging, you’re gonna identify with it because you’re gonna have very similar points of beauty and challenge yourself. And then we fold. Politics into it about why politics really are important [00:12:00] to the other person. And we do it in a way where it’s a true exploration. And once that happens, people connect deeply. so it doesn’t matter from, in my experience, how different the people are, how extreme the people are. you’re going to be able to bring them together, you know? And so if they haven’t met each other, it’s really interesting what you said that people hate, people a haven’t met, which is like a, such a obvious statement. And it is really profound just to hear that, like, it’s so absurd. Yeah, and I would say that in my experience, the most profound or the deepest sessions are with people who are really dramatically surprised that the other person’s a human being. So if they, if they haven’t met each other, if they haven’t met someone like that, it’s gonna be an easy one. Yeah. ’cause because the shock is gonna be [00:13:00] so huge. Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. And Larry: so, and so full, it’s when the people have had experiences with the other side that it’s, that it is, it’s still powerful, but it can be a little bit more intellectual than, than in the heart because when you’re shocked by someone’s humanity, because you couldn’t imagine it at all, it, it really crushes your thoughts about them. Gissele: What I love about the process is that that’s the part you really focus on. You masterfully, are able to get people to really get to the root of their humanity and make that connection and then reengage in the dialogue , which is, is amazing. So who individuals selected and what’s support needs to happen before they can engage in the dialogue? And I ask that because each individual has to be able to hold the discussion. Because sometimes it’s, sometimes it can feel so hurtful, and I’m thinking in particular, even Nancy. So they’ve gotta be able to regulate enough to stay in the dialogue. Otherwise, what [00:14:00] I have seen is people will eject, they’ll fight, they’ll just kind of flee. So what preparation needs to happen and how do you select people? Larry: So on the selection front, it’s different now than when I started, you know, when I started filming about a year ago, I didn’t have any choices. You know, it wasn’t like anyone knew who I was or they had seen my shows, so I would go, I would live in the Bay Area and it’s really hard to find conservatives in the Bay Area, but all the conservatives in, in the San Francisco Bay Area congregate, they have like clubs. Mm-hmm. And so I would go on hikes with, in conservative clubs and I would speak to them and I just would try to find people who were interested. There were no criteria beyond that. Now, having said that, it’s not entirely true. I did interview some people who I just were like, they’re two intellectual, they just wanted to talk about economic issues or stuff, something like that. and then for liberals, it was actually harder, [00:15:00] believe it or not, to find people in the Bay Area who wanted to participate. I could find tons of liberals and progressives, but they had zero interest in speaking to a conservative person. And I wasn’t sure if that was a Bay Area phenomena, because liberals are so much in the majority, they don’t really care to speak to the other side, whereas the other side wants to be heard, or whether that’s a progressive kind of liberal thing. I have my views that have developed over time, but it was hard to find liberal people. And so really at the beginning it was just people who were willing to do it. There weren’t criteria beyond that. At this point, you know we’ve received some that people know what we’re doing and people want to be on the show and we receive applications and my daughter. Who runs this with me, my daughter Sadie, who’s 20 years old and in college. She is the person who finds people now, and you might have seen the episode a white cop and a black activist. I don’t know if you’ve seen that one, but, you know, she found those two people and they were [00:16:00] great. And the way she found them is she searched the map on the internet. It’s a little different now because by searching people on the internet, we find people who have a little bit of an audience. Mm. And that could be a bit of a problem. But it’s also like so much less time consuming for us. And so. You know, if we had a lot of money, we would spend more money on casting, but we don’t, and so mm-hmm. But we were able to find pretty good people. I’d say the main criteria for me, in addition to them having to have some passion about this, this particular show that they’re on, whether it’s about abortion or Israel, Gaza, the main criteria for me that’s developed is, do I want to hang out with this person? Because if I do, if the person, not whether they’re nice. Okay. Not whether they’re kind. That’s not it. I want them to have passion and I want to like them personally, because if I, it’s not that I don’t like the, some of the people, I like them all, but I don’t [00:17:00] want to hang out with them. If I do, it’s gonna be a great show because I know that they’re gonna be dynamic people and that their passion will flip. they’re gonna connect in some way and people who are really cordial and kind, they’re not, they’re not going to connect as deeply. The transformation’s not going to be as powerful for them or for the audience. Gissele: Hmm. Really interesting. I wanna touch base on something you said, you know, like that most people listen to debate. And I like Valerie Kaur’s perspective, which is to listen, to understand is to be willing to change your mind and heart. And I also like what you said, which is listening is to love someone. Can you explain what you mean by that? Larry: I think it more is the, it’s received as love than it, than necessarily it’s given as love. It doesn’t mean that you love the other person when you’re listening, but all of us, I would say if we think of the people [00:18:00] that we believe love us the most, they get us. Yeah. We receive it that way and, and they don’t judge us. And so when an enemy does that for you, the thought that they are a bad person melts away. Because if somebody loves us, and that’s the way it’s received, it’s not really an intellectual thing, we just receive it that way. They can’t be a bad person. Like somebody who loves me cannot be a bad person. And so it’s probably the most powerful thing that you can do to flip the feeling of the other side, is to listen to them, not to convince them of anything and to listen to them with curiosity, not just kind of blankly to listen to them without judgment. That’s a real critical piece. And if you do, you know, you can see on the show, it’s just like, you can see the switch flip. It’s really interesting. You can almost watch when it [00:19:00] happens and all of a sudden. The person likes the other person and now they’re listening to each other. It was really interesting. I was on a show one of the episodes is called I forget what it’s called. It’s the Guns episode. How To Stop The Bleed or something. It was these two women, and one of them has a podcast that she had me on and she said what was really interesting to her was that given how the show was laid out, like the first part of the show, they’re arguing, like usually doing a debate and they don’t really hear each other. But she said, given how the show was laid out, she was not preparing her responses in her mind like she always does. When speaking to somebody else, she was not thinking about what she was going to say. Her job in her mind was to understand the other person, to really get the other person. She said it was a total shift in the way she was acting internally. Like, like, and she said she noticed it. Like, I am not even thinking about what I’m going to say. And then she said afterwards she thought a lot about it, [00:20:00] and that was a dramatic shift from anything she’s been involved with. And that’s another way to put it. You know, I don’t, I didn’t think of that when, you know that the people wouldn’t be preparing for their response like we usually do. But that is definitely what happens when you concentrate on listening, and so yeah, it’s received really warmly and it’s transforming. Gissele: Yeah, and I think it, a lot of it has to do with how you manage the conversations, right? Like the tools that you use. I noticed they use the who am I right? To try to get people to go down to their core level to talk about themselves, the whole flipping side, identity confusion, which we’ll talk about in a minute. So are these based on particular frameworks that you use to mediate conversations since you have a history of mediation? Or is this something that you sort of came up on your own? Larry: It is something that I came up with on my own for the most part. I mean, I do a type of mediation in the law. I’m a lawyer where it’s unusual because [00:21:00] I’m doing like a personal mediation in a legal context. It’s kind of weird. for people. Yeah, but I only do the types of mediations where people know each other, like I don’t do between two companies, because there’s not really a human element to it. It’s, it really is about money for the most part. But, but when it’s two human beings, the money is a proxy for something else, always. Mm-hmm. Yeah. and so I’m used to being able to connect people. I do, you know, divorce founders of companies, neighbors family members who are caring for another family member. People who, where there wouldn’t be a legal issue if their relationship wasn’t broken. And so they already know each other. I don’t have to do that really deep rapport building. I do have to do some, but not really deep. but my theory was that when starting this project, which is mostly political, and people who don’t know each other, that there would be a piece missing. You know, like I wasn’t sure if what I’d do would do would work. What I do with clients would work in this. Political context, and I want them to [00:22:00] know, my thought was how do I build that rapport, even if it’s broken in the personal relationship, like they’re craving that they want that healing, but here, like they don’t know the other person. So it was really just me think thinking about how do powerful things that I want to know about other people. Speaker 3: Yeah. Larry: And so I really just tried it. I mean, like, you know, what is most, what would I most powerfully want from another person? and I develop a list of questions that really worked well, but I’m really practiced in keeping people focused on the questions at hand and not allowing them to deviate from what it is that I’ve designed. So that’s something that, you know, I’ve been doing for 20 years, and it takes some skill to even know whether the person’s deviating, whether they’re sneaking in their own judgment or they’re, you know, they’re asking a question, but it’s [00:23:00] really designed to convince the other person. So I’ve good at detecting that from, from a fair amount of experience, and I’ve developed skills in how I can reel them back in without triggering them. Gissele: Yeah. I’ve watched it, like you’re very good at navigating people back and it’s very soft and very humane. can I just bring you back here? So there’s no like judgment or minimizing of what they say. They’re just like, well, can I just get you back on this track? It’s, it’s very beautiful how you do that . Larry: Thank you. and you ask how I prepare people. It’s interesting because what I do is I interview them for an hour and a half to see if they’re a match for the show, an hour and a half to two hours. And I get to know them during that and, and me asking all these questions, gets them liking me. Right. The same process happens between us. Yeah, Gissele: yeah, yeah, yeah. Larry: Smart. [00:24:00] and then before the show, I spend another, hour with them again over, it’s over video. I’ve never met these people in person, just repairing them for what’s going to happen, what my objectives are helping them understand that we’re going to start with conflict. It’s not where we’re going to go. Just really helping them understand the trajectory and answering their questions. And so they come in with some level of rapport. For me, it’s not like we know each other really well, so a lot of times it’s just us starting together. But they do trust me to some extent. There’s no, like, and you said, how do I get them to regulate? I don’t. there’s no preparation for that. It’s just that I, from so much experience with this, you know, thousands of conversations with people over the years, it’s easy to get a person to calm down, which is, you know, you just take a break from the other person to say, hold on a second, I’m gonna listen to you.[00:25:00] And then they calm down. And, those skills, you know, the whole, the whole identity confusion and the layout of the questions, that’s kind of my stuff. But the skills that I use are not mine. I’ve developed them over the years, but a lot of them come from nonviolent communication. Mm-hmm. And Marshall Rosenberg. And I got my first training in nonviolent communication probably 25 years ago. But I remember well the person’s saying, you’re moderating a conversation between, between two people. You prov you apply emergency first aid ’cause one person can’t, can’t hear. And you as the intermediate intermediary can apply that. And it, so it becomes quite easy, you know, with that thought in mind that I can heal in the moment, whatever’s going on. Gissele: Mm, mm-hmm. Beautiful. I wanna talk a little bit about the flipping side. ’cause I think it’s so, so important. Why do you get people to, with opposing [00:26:00] perspectives, to flip sides and then just reiterate the viewpoints from their perspective. I know sometimes it can be confusing to the people themselves, but why do you get them to flip sides? Larry: Yeah. So, so it might be helpful to view it through, you know, a real example. Let’s take. Eve and Nancy, which is, you know, a really powerful episode for your, wow. Your listeners who haven’t watched or heard any, any of these, Eve is a transgender woman. Fully transitioned. Nancy is what, what she called a gender fundamentalist wearing a MAGA hat. She comes in and she’s saying stuff like people who are trans belong in mental institutions. She tells Eve to her face that you’re a genetically modified man. Eve is saying, you know, you people don’t have empathy for other people. They’re really far apart. Let’s just say it’s not gone well. [00:27:00] Eve is very empathetic, however, you know, like she is unusually empathetic. And able to hear Nancy, and that is transforming for Nancy. I mean, I can’t express the degree to which Eve’s own nature and intention transformed this. You know, I helped, but it is an unbelievable example of me listening to you will transform you. And where I take them ultimately is I’m preparing them as they’re understanding each other for switching roles. Because what happens when we switch roles? I mean, my thought is that human beings can easily, you might, it might be weird to this, this point, but we, we often say you can walk in the shoes of another person. How is that even possible? If you, if you think about it, we, we have totally different upbringings, you know, how can you experience what another person experiences if we have totally different upbringings, [00:28:00] different philosophies. Like, how is that possible? And yet almost everybody can do it. And it’s because we have the same internal machinery, we have the same internal drives. We just have different ways of achieving them. And so if you can slowly build your understanding of a person’s history and their beliefs, like a belief might be that there’s Christ who is love and will save me. That’s a belief. If you identify the person’s history and their beliefs and you occupy that belief, you can understand why it’s important to them. If you have that be, why would that be? Well, it’s important to me now if I really believe that, because I wanna live forever. I can be with the people I love forever, I can help save other people. Like can there be anything more powerful than saving somebody’s soul? Like once you enter their belief, and the reason we’re able to do [00:29:00] that is because we are the same internally, we have the same desires. So the whole show is a buildup toward getting them to understand each other’s beliefs and experience and then occupy them. And once we do and we start advocating on the other person’s behalf, we become confused who we are. And that’s really powerful. Like, I don’t even know who I am and I’m doing this legitimately, like I’m totally advocating for you. I’m saying stuff you didn’t even say. Yeah. And then you are listening to me do that, and you’re blown away like you’ve never been heard so deeply. And particularly not by someone you consider an enemy. And so that is transforming. What I will say is that I use this process a lot in mediation. For a different reason. My mediations are not meant to repair relationships. This is meant to repair relationships my mediations are meant to solve issues. Gissele: Hmm. Larry: In, in this show, I [00:30:00] specifically tell them, you are not here to solve the issues. Like, how are they gonna solve the Palestine Israel issue? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it’s too big of a burden and no one’s gonna listen to them. Mm-hmm. The goal is to show the audience that people should not be enemies. That they’re the same people on the other side. That’s my goal. So I try to keep them away from solution seeking because they will be disappointed. People won’t listen to them and things could fall apart. And that’s, it’s not the point of the show. But what’s interesting is that in my mediations, I use this tool of having them switch identities to solve issues because once they do occupy the other person’s perspective fully, they are then. Solving the issue because they understand that an internal level, the other person and what drives them, and they have no resistance to that and they understand themselves. They already understand themselves. And so during that process, solutions emerge because [00:31:00] they’ve never been able to hold both perspectives at the same time. And I heard you say that when we were opening the show, I don’t remember what the context was about holding both perspectives at the same time. But you, you said that, that that’s something that you do. Yes. Gissele: So so when, when students are taught research or even like thinking about ethical considerations, right? When you’re doing research, you’ve gotta be able to hold differing perspectives, understand differing views, understand research that might invalidate your perspectives, right? And so if you come already into the conversation thinking that there’s a right way or there’s a right perspective, and I heard you say this in your TEDx talk, I think you were talking about like, we can only win if we defeat the other side. That perspective that there’s only one side, one perspective prevents us then from engaging in dialogue and holding opposing views. Larry: and the holding the opposing views for, in my mind is not an intellectual process. Like you might think that if I, if I list all the [00:32:00] desires and the goals on both and on a spreadsheet, then I’ll be able to solve it. No chance. Yeah. It’s not a conscious intellectual process. It’s when you get it both sides deeply without resistance that your subconscious produces solutions. So we don’t consciously produce solutions. And what I found is that that is the most powerful tool to bring people to solutions where they are themselves and the other person at the same time where both people are doing this and then one person just suggests something that never occurred to any of us. And it solves it. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. Now, that doesn’t Larry: happen in, in the show because I’m specifically telling them not to seek solutions, but it does happen in mediation. Gissele: Hmm. Yeah. And What you’re doing is so fundamental too, sometimes it’s not even about finding a solution. Sometimes it’s even just about finding the humanity in each other. And that is such a great beginning. You know, people wanna solve war. Yeah, of course we all wanna [00:33:00] eliminate war, but sometimes there’s war within families with neighbors. So why are we worried about the larger war where we’re not even in able to engage and hold space for each other’s humanity within our homes? And so I think what you’re inviting people to do is, can we sit with each other in dialogue without the need to change each other, just with respect, which you’ve mentioned is fundamental, just with presence, just remembering each other’s humanity. And I think that’s all fundamental. Larry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gissele: Yeah. I wanted to also mention, you know, one of the things that I noticed in, the conversations is how you focus people on disarming, and one of the ways that you get them to disarm is to take their uniforms off. Can you talk about a little bit about how uniforms show up in these conversations? Larry: Yeah. Some people come with like a MAGA hat or a pin or bracelets or something like that, that show which side they’re on, and I don’t discourage that. You know, [00:34:00] it’s part of the process for the audience from my perspective, because at a certain point, if they do come that way, I ask ’em not to wear a shirt that they can’t take off, but they might wear a hat. And if they, when they do take that off, eventually when we, when we stop the argument, when we stop the debate portion and we enter into another. Portion of the discussion, you can see the effect on the other person. And you can even see the effect on the person who took like the most dramatic is Nancy. Gissele: Yep. Nancy is wearing a, that’s the one I was Larry: thinking. MAGA hat. Yeah. And then she puts on Nancy is is from Kenya and she puts on a Kenyan headdress because her hair is, that’s so beautiful. A little messed up from the hat. And she’s like, I’ll put this on. and I asked her like, wow, you look really happy when you have that on. And she’s like, yeah, this is my crown. And she is almost like a different person and you know, uniforms basically divide, I mean they announced to the other side [00:35:00] essentially. I don’t care about you whether consciously or not. it’s interpreted as I will defeat you at any cost. You just don’t matter. I am on this side and I will crush you. And, and when she took that off, you could really actually see the difference in her and in Eve. Gissele: Yeah, absolutely. It was truly transformative. ‘Cause I noticed that when she had the hat you can even see it in the body language. There was a big protection. And she use it as a protection in terms of like, well, my group but when she used her headdress, it was so beautiful and it was just more her, it was just her. It wasn’t all of these other people. When I think about, you know, the Holocaust and how people got into these roles. ’cause you know, in my class we talk about the vanity of evil, right? Like how people, some people were hairdressers and butchers before the Holocaust. They came, they did these roles, and then they went back to doing that after the war. And it’s like, how does that make sense? And, and to put a uniform on, to [00:36:00] put a role on and then fully accept it, like you said, creates that division, creates that separation between human beings. Whereas what you’re doing is you’re asking them to disarm and to go back to the essence of their own humanity, which I think is really powerful. But it was really interesting the whole discussion on, on uniforms, right? Larry: Yeah, yeah. it is one of the many ways we separate ourselves, that we separate ourselves, that we perceive ourselves as different than them, and that they view us as a threat. Gissele: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I heard you say that enemies are not enemies, it’s just us on the other side. What do you mean by that? Larry: I mean the ordinary people of the enemy. I believe enemy makers, if you can think of who you might consider an enemy maker. They are political leaders and they are media leaders. And they wouldn’t exist. They wouldn’t have any [00:37:00] power. People wouldn’t vote for them. People wouldn’t watch them if they didn’t create an enemy. If they didn’t foster the idea that there is an enemy. And the enemy has got to be broad. It can’t just be one person. It’s got to be a people that I’m fighting against. It’s gotta be a big threat. And so they paint people who are ordinary people on the other side as a threat. All the time. Yeah. and so that’s the, big lie at the center of it, that they’re a threat. And what happens is, there’s the psychological process that the, brain goes through. The mind goes through that where once we’re under threat, that’s a cascade that is exists in every human being. And that results in us going to war with the other side once we’re under threat. But this is an us choosing a leader. But this is a very fundamental basic process and [00:38:00] fundamental, basic lie that that autocrats and demagogues and people who just want power have been using forever with human beings, I imagine. And it’s extremely powerful. And so what I intend to show is that that is a lie. Gissele: Hmm. Larry: That is just not the truth because at the core of this psychological process is the thought that you’re a threat to me. And then this whole cascade happens internally for me. If I no longer believe you are a threat, the cascade unwinds and the power of the enemy maker unwins, it can all flip on that one lie. And so I want people to understand that ordinary people on the other side are just them. Like, I can’t tell you how many times people on the show are, are just like, holy cow. Yeah, I see myself in you. Like I, that’s exactly what I’m experiencing. And it’s revelatory for [00:39:00] them. Like how could that be? Like how could we be opposed to each other? This is crazy. Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Gissele: And you know, it’s amazing how when we truly understand somebody’s reasons for believing what they do, their history, their beliefs, why they believe makes sense, right? Yeah. Like, I saw it a lot in children in care, in the child protection system. Their behaviors seem reallymisbehaved. they shut down. They, act out. in some cases, that’s how those kids survived, these abusive homes, right? And so to them they’re still always on survival mode. Yeah. Makes sense. That’s what helped them survive. And so you, when you understand the other person’s perspective makes sense. Yeah. And you know, as you were talking, I was thinking what is going on for those demagogues and those authoritarian people that believe that that’s the only way that they can get what they need. you mean the leaders themselves? The leaders themselves, like so powerful people, people that are in their power, feel, love, feel [00:40:00] fulfilled, don’t need to disempower others, they don’t. In fact, the more that you love yourself at least that has been my experience, the more I have compassion for myself, the more I love myself, the more I’m in that state, the less I wanna hurt other people. The more I care about other people actually. So what is going on for them? That they think that this is the only way to get their needs met? Larry: I’ve thought a lot about this, you know, because the goal of this show is to show that people aren’t enemies, but there are enemy makers. And to me they are the enemy. like of all of the rest of us, all of us who are just trying to exist in the world, who prefer a world where we’re working together, you know? Yeah. It’s these people on the extreme who are, who are basically consciously sucking the goodwill out of society that I couldn’t care less about that because they get power. So is there something different about them? Is there, I have a few conclusions. One is [00:41:00] that there are people who are different that, that they are born, you know, all of us are born with the same internal desires and almost all of us get pleasure from seeing other people happy. That’s just born into us. Like, you know, almost everyone who’s an activist who comes onto the show, everyone actually is doing it because they want to other people to be happy. They, they don’t want people to experience the same pain that they’ve been in their life, but there are people who are born without or have extremely dialed down the pleasure that they get, the happiness that they get from seeing other people happy and healed. It’s not that the rest of us always want to see other people happy, but it, it’s one of our greatest sources of pleasure. There are people who are born without that. We call them sociopaths, Some leaders are sociopaths. They, don’t, I believe, obtain pleasure from other people’s happiness and they’re able to manipulate us quite often very well. And it’s these people who in peace time, [00:42:00] we wouldn’t even sit next to, we wouldn’t invite them over for Thanksgiving. Those are the people we choose, that it’s, it Gissele: doesn’t make biological sense. Larry: Well, they’re the people we choose when we’re at war, they are the people we choose. So, so think about this, okay? There is a virus, and the virus will kill 95% of human beings. And you have a leader who says there’s someone in power who says, we understand that people who are infected are going to infect other people, that as a society, we need to euthanize them. We actually need to do that as a society to save other people. Mm-hmm. There might be a leader who is empathetic, who says, I can’t do that. That, that feels wrong to me. almost all of us turn to the someone else who is a tyrant. Gissele: Who’s willing to do [00:43:00] what needs to be done to save us, right, exactly. Larry: To defeat evil, to kill, you know, when there’s a big enough threat, we will turn to the tyrant. And so people who are sociopaths and who in normal society would be rejected as a person who’s extremely dangerous, are the very people we turn to in times of war, when evil needs to be defeated. And so if you’re a sociopath and you want power, there’s no other way to power, you’re not going to follow the route of cooperation. You’re not going to follow the route of, you know, building alliance with the other side. You’re, if it, you’ll go the route of creating an enemy. And so that’s what we’ve, we’ve found. In our society, there are people who rise to power, who are the very people we would want nothing to do with in peace time. And that [00:44:00] people turn to, because they believe the other side is an enemy. They believe they are the virus that will kill 95% of people. So you can think of any leader and you might say, how could people follow this person? How could they possibly, what kind of evil is in people that they would follow this person, given what this person is doing? And the answer is obvious. They’ve been convinced that the other side is evil. Gissele: Yeah. Larry: And they truly, truly believe it. Gissele: This makes me think Hitler would’ve been a lone nut if 10 million people hadn’t followed him. Right? Larry: Right. And they believed, right. Gissele: They believed, I Speaker 4: mean. Larry: That, that Jews were, were incredible danger. They also ignored it and, you know, wanted to get along in society and, and be with the people they cared about. But, they truly believed that Jews were evil. Yeah. And if you, if you can convince them of that, you can lead a people. Gissele: Yeah. So the, it goes to the [00:45:00] question of like the reflexivity, like, so what is people’s own responsibility to constantly examine their own biases, beliefs, and viewpoints? Right. I gotta applaud the people that are on your show because they have to be willing to engage in a dialogue. So there’s an element of them that is willing to be wrong, right? or willing to kind of engage in that perspective. And we struggle so much. Yeah, with being wrong, like the mind always wants to be, right. We want to be on the side of good. And that’s one of the things that I was so reflecting on, I think I was listening to the conversation with, proud Boy, and the, in the progressive. The, yeah, progressive And that’s one of the episodes, by the way, for people. Yeah. That’s one of the episodes. And, and I, I love the follow up by the way. That was also amazing. It’s so funny because I was like, oh, is there a follow up? And I were like, went to search for it. Just to see how both sides feel that they’re right. And on the side of good, on the side of like positive for humanity, I think was really puzzling to me we have different ways [00:46:00] of getting there. You know, the people that for Trump really truly believe that some of the stuff he’s doing is very beneficial. The people that are against, they truly believe that what he’s doing is horrible. And to see those perspectives that at the core of it is a love or a care about humanity was really kind of mind blowing. Larry: Yeah, that is mind blowing. Gissele: Yeah, Larry: it is mind blowing. And what is infuriating to me is that we are manipulated to not pair with these other people because then these leaders would lose their power, you know, it’s a huge manipulation. Gissele: So this is why it’s up to each of us to do that work, to do the coming together, the engaging in the conversation, even though sometimes it feels difficult. And, having a willingness to listen And that’s the thing, that’s the thing about your beautiful show, which is like, you don’t have to agree at the end. You just have to see each other’s humanity, right? to let go of enemies, let go, to let Larry: go of that we have to agree that’s a real problem for me as well. Like when I get into a conversation with someone, [00:47:00] it’s like, how do we conclude the conversation if we don’t agree? It’s almost like it’s, it’s a forced imperative that is a mistake. Like that’s the point of the conversation. Yeah. for the most part, let go of that because I see now that that was just a mistake. Like we never had to agree. Gissele: Yeah. I so let’s talk about then, since we’re talking about disagreement, let’s talk about censorship, So because of the class that I teach, because I want them to understand different perspectives. One of the things I say in these papers is like, look, you can be pro-choice or pro-life. You can be pro Trump or against, I’m not judging you. That doesn’t matter. The exercise is to view the other side. That’s it, right? But it’s amazing how some of these dialogues in institutions have been diminished because there’s the belief that if we have these conversations, we’re supporting it, right? But the truth of the matter is that dialogue goes underground. It doesn’t disappear. It [00:48:00] doesn’t mean like, oh, everybody now believes this. It just goes covert, right? And these dialogues about these opposing perspectives are happening. And so I think I’d rather have these conversations up. And so that we can engage in dialogue and see what people are believing. I mean, there’s this undercurrent of racism, it seems, from my perspective, it it that that has existed for such a long time. It used to exist very, like visually in terms of slavery, but now there is still underground racism, right? Like it’s covert people may be able to vocalize the importance of diversity, but some people don’t believe it. So let’s talk about it rather than kind of like try to get those people to disappear and pretend it’s not there. What are your thoughts? Larry: Yeah. You know, there’s been a criticism that comes from the left a lot on the show, from people, from in comments is that we platformed bad guys. Like, you should not, you should not be giving a [00:49:00] stage to a proud boy. Well, if you listen to the Proud Boy’s perspective, this guy is like completely reasonable. He, he, you know, from people on the left, they’re even confused that he’s a proud boy. I think he might be confused about why he is a proud boy, I’m not sure. but he’s completely reasonable. So to, to just reflexively reject this person. He’s not there to represent the proud boys. He’s there to represent himself and to reflexively reject this person is to miss out on really a, a beautiful person and an interesting perspective. I’ve given a lot of thought to the criticism, however, because there’s a guy I’m considering having on the show who is a self-described fascist, a white supremacist, and I’ve had conversations with him and it is amazing how. The reason he is a white supremacist is he truly believes that white people are in danger and that he will be rejected. There will be no opportunities for them, and that he [00:50:00] is possibly in physical danger. He truly believes this. And if I believe that, you know I might do the same thing. And, I had a three hour interview with him where I really liked him, but I’m probably not gonna put him on the show. And, I’ve really thought a lot about whether to platform people and, I’ve kind of developed my own philosophy on whether it’s worth whether I should be airing viewpoints or not. And my thought is that a bridge goes both ways. So I can build a bridge where I walk him back. I am confident that I can have someone hear him out and him develop a relationship with them where he then becomes less extreme in his viewpoints. Gissele: I was gonna say, I think you should have him on the show. here’s is my perspective. Okay? Again, this is so similar to what Darrell David said, right? his intent wasn’t to change. It was to [00:51:00] understand, I think if we understood why people were afraid of us or hated, I’m Latino, by the way, right? We understood then we, can have the dialogue. The thing is like. People are giving like a one-sided propaganda. And it’s true, like if you actually hear the rhetoric of many separate groups is the fear of the other. Even though when you look at the population stats, right, even in the US black people make up 4%. Indigenous people make up 2% of the population. Like I think white people make up 57% of the population of the US and it’s higher in Canada. But it’s the fears, even though they might not be based on reality. That’s the rhetoric that these groups use. They use the rhetoric of we’re in danger, that these people are out to get us to destroy us. Thatsomehow it’s better for us to be isolated and separated. And they use the rhetoric of belonging. They use the rhetoric of love. They [00:52:00] use a co-opt it I don’t even think it’s rhetoric Larry: for them. It’s truth for them. Okay, Gissele: thank you. Yeah, so if you have people who are engaging in those different dialogues, like Darrell did, people don’t understand why they believe that the way that they do. Right? Because, because it’s real. Right? Now that rhetoric is happening, whether people wanna face it or not, that’s the problem. So Larry: I you completely, and when I first started this, I said to myself, there’s no question that I’m gonna have a Nazi on the show. There’s no question. But as I’ve thought about the critique that’s been offered, I’ve kind of drawn a line for myself at least present. And, and that’s fair. but I’ll tell you why I haven’t, I haven’t said why yet, which is A bridge goes both ways and, while I believe it’s really important to hear people, them out, because you walk people on both sides back from the extreme, toward the majority when you hear them out because they don’t see people as a threat anymore. As much. [00:53:00] What happens is by building the bridge, you provide an opportunity for many people to walk out toward them. When you give them an opportunity to hear, hear them out publicly, and my thought is that I will hear anybody out who has a large following because they already are being heard. Mm-hmm. They already have people walking out to them, and my goal is to bring them toward the rest of us so that we can function as a society. Mm-hmm. But I’m not gonna hear somebody who’s 0.1%, who’s because. Mm-hmm. Gissele: Okay. Larry: I understand me walk because they’re, I can walk them back, but maybe I walk 20 people out to them. Gissele: And it creates Larry: a bigger problem. And so, in my own view it’s about how big their following is already. Mm. Even though, yes, it’s, we can walk them back by hearing them. Gissele: Mm. Yeah. So, yeah. It’s, [00:54:00] it’s so interesting. I was just thinking about Deeyah Khan And Darryl David’s the same. And one of the things I noticed about their work is that, and I noticed it in yours too, is sometimes what happens in these sort of circumstances is that the people that they are exposed to might become the exception to the rule. Have you heard of the, the exception to the rule? So let’s say I meet someone who’s anti-Latino, but they’re like, but then they like me. And so they’ll do, like, you are all right. Speaker 4: Yeah. Gissele: I still don’t like other Latinos. Right. And so in the beginning that used to irk me so much. Right? Then I realized after watching all of this, information and I observed it in your show and I thought about it, is that’s the beginning of re humanization. Larry: I agree with that. It’s like it’s a dial, it’s not a switch. Yeah. Gissele: Yes. And so it begins with, oh, this is the exception to the rule, and then this next person’s the exception to the rule, and then this next person, and then, then the brain can’t handle it. Like how many exceptions to the rule can there [00:55:00] be? They couldn’t hold the exception to the rule anymore. Right. It had to be that their belief was wrong Right. Which is, it’s really interesting. And, and Larry: it’s another, another interesting thing I often say, which I get negative feedback about this statement that we don’t choose our beliefs. we don’t have any power over them. They just exist. Mm-hmm. And we can’t choose. Not if I think that. A certain race is dangerous to me. I can’t just choose not to. You can call me racist, whatever. I just can’t choose my thought about it. I have an experience. People have told me things. That’s my belief. That belief gets eroded. It doesn’t get changed. Gissele: Mm-hmm. It, Larry: it happens not consciously. Life experiences change our beliefs, we don’t just suddenly love white people. if we’ve experienced, brutality from white people or from white cops, you don’t just change your belief about it. You have to get, you have to slowly be [00:56:00] exposed. You have to, or be deeply exposed. so these types of things erode our other beliefs. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Larry: And, and my goal is not, you know, like Nancy came in, I would say as a nine or a 10 with her. Dislike for trans people when she left. Just to be clear, ’cause people I think are mistaken about this, who watch this show, she does not think still that trans people should be around kids. She still thinks it’s dangerous, but she thinks trans people themselves are okay. That they can be beautiful, that they do not belong in mental institutions. And as she said, I would drink outta the same glass from you Eve and I would protect you. So she went from a 10 to a seven, let’s say? Yeah. Gissele: Yeah. Larry: And she’s still out there. She still there. She used the word Gissele: she. Larry: Mm-hmm. Yeah. She used the word SHE and she’s still out there advocating for keeping trans people away from kids. and [00:57:00] people are like, so she’s a hypocrite. She’s, no, she has moved so far and. Eve moved toward, I shouldn’t paint Nancy as the wrong one. Eve moved toward Nancy understanding that Nancy really is worried about kids, and Nancy brought up some things that really concerned Eve when she heard it, about the exposure that kids have to various concepts. I guess my point is that people who get dialed down from a 10 to a six or a seven can deal with each other. They can run a society together. Mm-hmm. They don’t, they don’t invest all of their energy in defeating the other side, which is where all of our energy is now. I call it issues zero. You care about climate change, or you care about poverty, you care about mass migration, you care about nuclear per proliferation, you care about ai. Forget it. None of these are getting solved. Zero. Yeah. Unless we learn to cooperate with each other, and if [00:58:00] we’re dedicating all of our energy to defeating the other side, every single one of these issues goes unaddressed. And so my goal is to dial the vitriol down so that we can actually solve some human problems so that the next generation doesn’t inherit this mess that we’ve created. Gissele: Mm-hmm. You once said, I, I may be misquoting you, so please correct me. Revenge is a need for understanding. Can you explain that further? Larry: Yeah. I said that in in my TEDx, mm-hmm. if someone has been hurt by another person, they often seek revenge. And that desire for revenge will go away actually when they’re understood. If you’re under and you deny that you want to be understood by your enemy. You’d say like, that is baloney. they deserve to be punished and they need to be punished to provide disincentive for other people in society so that they don’t do this terrible thing. People [00:59:00] would deny that they want understanding from their enemy, but when they receive it, the desire for revenge goes away. I mean, I’ve seen that innumerable times. So how does the need for understanding help us live beyond the need to punish one another? Well, I think that if someone’s seeking revenge against you, if someone’s trying to injure you, you can unravel that by understanding them, whether we, people agree that that human beings seek revenge as a need or not, you can unravel it pretty, not easily, but you can pretty reliably. Very often people who seek revenge against each other, like in my mediations, once they’re understood by the other person, once they have some connection, They go through some kind of healing process with the other person. They don’t even understand why they were seeking revenge themselves, like they are [01:00:00] completely transformed. they were like, that would be a total travesty of justice if you were hurt Now. Gissele: Yeah. I love the fact that these conversations get at the core of human needs, which is they need to be seen, they need to be understood, they need to be loved, they need to be accepted, they need to be long. And so I think these conversations that you’re facilitating get to those needs, you kind of like go through all of the, the fluff to get to the, okay, what are the needs that need to be met? and how can we connect to one another through those needs? And then, and then from that, you go back to the conversation on the topic. And really it’s about fears at the core of it, right? Like the fear that my children are gonna be confused or forced into something or, the fear that somebody’s gonna have a say over my body and tell me that I have to do something. All of those fears are at the core and conversations get at those needs, not at the surface. Yeah. It’s not to say Larry: I should say that. It’s not to say that the fears are irrational. Yeah. They might be rational. But you know, it’s also a [01:01:00] self-fulfilling prophecy that if we fear somebody, they’re going to think of us as a threat. We’re gonna do stuff that creates the world that we fear. And it’s obvious with certain issues like between two peoples. You know, like if you fear that the other people are going to attack you, you might preemptively attack them or you might treat them in a, in a way that is really bad. And, and so you start this war and that happens between human beings on an individual basis and between peoples, yeah. It’s less obvious, with an issue, let’s say abortion. my fear is not creating the issue on the other side. but many of our interactions with other human beings, it is our fear that triggers them. We create the world we fear. Gissele: Yeah. And I think that goes back to the self-responsibility, right? to what extent are we responsible for looking at ourselves, looking at our biases, looking at our prejudice, looking at our fear and how our [01:02:00] fear is causing us to hurt other people. What responsibility do we have to engage in dialogue or be willing to see somebody’s humanity, right? It’s Larry: just this better strategy. Even if you think of it as, yeah, you know, people sometimes say these two sides. I get this criticism a lot, and this, by the way, these criticisms come from the left mostly that these two sides are not, are not Equivalent. Oh, okay. how could you equate Nancy and Eve, Eve just wants to live. Nancy’s trying to control her, the left views, the right is trying to control them and oppress them and so they’re not moral equivalent. And my point is always, I’m not making a point that they’re morally equivalent. That’s for you to decide, okay? If you want to. I’m saying morally judging them is not effective. It’s just not gonna produce the world that you want. So, you know, it’s just really effective [01:03:00] to hear them out, to take their concerns seriously, even if you think that it’s not fair. But you’ll then create the world you want. And if you don’t do that, if you poo poo them, even if they’re wrong, you believe they’re completely wrong, and you think that mm-hmm you know, there is good and evil and they are completely the evil one, you are going to exacerbate their evil by morally rebuking them. And I want to say that like as clearly as possible, I haven’t made this point e enough on the show. I’m really kind of building a base before I go into more sophisticated, what I would consider a more nuanced. Philosophy, but if you judge somebody, it is the greatest threat to a human being. Just understand that we evolved in groups and moral judgment was the way we got kicked out of groups. If you were a bad person, you were gone, you were dead. [01:04:00] And so all of us respond very, very negatively to being judged as selfish. I’ve had clients threaten to kill each other. Not as powerful

TRANSCRIPT Gissele: Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking with Barry Adkins after losing his 18-year-old son, Kevin, to alcohol poisoning. Barry saw that he had two choices. He could curl up in the corner and allow himself to become a victim, or he could get out and tell as many people as possible about what happened to his son, Kevin. Barry chose the latter in an effort to raise awareness of the dangers of binge drinking. Barry set out on an Epic 1400 mile journey on foot from Arizona to Montana. His son’s ashes in his backpack, stopping at numerous schools, churches in treatment facilities along the way to share his story. Larry’s presentation describes in powerful detail the night his son died.[00:01:00] The quiet morning that he got the knock on the door and how he came up with the idea to walk from Arizona to Montana.Barry’s message is both powerful inspiration and a warning about the consequences of even one night of binge drinking. Barry has shared his story with over 200,000 students and parents. He has been a featured speaker at numerous high schools, community events, and town hall meetings. Barry has also been featured in numerous media outlets, including Reader’s Digest, the Dr. Gina Show and the Leon Fonte Show. Please join me in welcoming Barry. Hi Barry. Barry: Oh, thanks for having me on. Gissele Gissele: Ah, thank you for being on the show. I was wondering if you could share with the audience a little bit about the story of your son’s passing and how that led you to actually decide to become this powerful messenger on the dangers of pitch drinking. Barry: Well, Gissele, I probably should start by kind of telling you, you know, what led up to that. [00:02:00] Yeah, let’s start with that. So he had just graduated from high school. He struggled in high school. He was actually flunking his English class in March of his senior year in high school. And he needed it for graduation, right? Mm-hmm. And I would always talk to him about it and, you know, he would tell me to quit bothering him about it. He’d take care of it. But at the end of the day, he did graduate, and I remember at his high school graduation ceremony, he gave me a hug and whispered, thanks for not giving up on me, dad. Gissele: Hmm. Barry: And shortly thereafter suffice to say he saved up enough money and I agree to co-sign a loan so he could buy a new truck. And if you have listeners that work at dealerships, I apologize, but I have a healthy dislike for that process, right? Mm-hmm. Because they’re gonna try to sell me something I don’t want or need. He found one of the dealerships, so I gotta go in and sign papers, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. I Barry: sit down in the, the dealerships. You know, in their [00:03:00] office, and the first thing this guy says to me is, how about some life insurance? And I’m like, 18-year-old boys don’t need life insurance. They don’t die. But I was wrong. They do die. He wouldn’t live long enough to make a single payment on that truck. So a few weeks later. I remember him sitting down in our living room and talking about how he couldn’t believe his life was finally beginning and he wanted to move out, and I did my best to discourage him because we honestly never really had any problems with him. His high school principal didn’t even know who he was. I didn’t have any luck talking out of it. So a couple weeks later, his buddy Craig came over and they started moving him out. You know, he’s 18 years old. His definition of moving out was throwing a bed, a tv, and a dresser in the back of his truck. Mm-hmm. I remember him coming back in and he came into the living room and he said something I’ll never forget. He said he wasn’t [00:04:00] gonna take his toothbrush with him. He’d be back tomorrow and grab it. I walked out front with him like I normally do, gave him a hug, told him that, be careful, and I loved him and watched him drive away. It was the last time I saw him alive that night. His friends decided to throw a house warming party for him. Started with a keg of beer and moved on to shots. He left a voicemail for his sister that night talking about how much fun they were having and how drunk he was. After he left that voicemail, he passed out his friends laid him in his bed on his side in case he vomited, but the party was still going on. They actually went in and shaved his head and his legs while he was passed out because he’s just passed out, right? Gissele: Yeah. But Barry: his buddy Craig, was worried about him, kept going back into check on him around 4:00 AM calls started coming into 9 1 1. First calls were difficulty [00:05:00] breathing. Next calls. Not breathing. My son died alone in a hospital. Well, I slept peacefully in my bed. The next morning was Sunday morning. My wife and I are sitting around talking about what we’re not gonna do that day or do that day. Eight 30 in the morning. The doorbell rings. And we’re looking at each other because we weren’t expecting company. And I open the door and I see two police officers and somebody in plain clothes at my front door. Should have been a big red flag, right? It should have been, but I’m that guy. It didn’t even occur to me, Gissele, that something bad had happened. I actually joked with them as they came in thinking this had to have something to do with a dog or a parked car, but they didn’t laugh at any of my jokes. One of the officers in the plain clothes stayed at the front door. The other officer walked in and stood in front of the chair that Kevin had sat in [00:06:00] two weeks before and talked about how his life was finally beginning. He said There had been an accident and your son is dead. We asked who, because we have a number of children, they said it was Kevin and they handed me his driver’s license. Yeah, there is something pretty final about it when a police officer hands you your child’s driver’s license because until that exact moment in time, you’re holding out hope that this is all a big mistake. You’ve misspelled the last name, but once they hand you, your child’s driver’s license, you know he is gone and he is never coming back. Gissele: That must have been so devastating. Barry: Yeah, people say it’s impossible to know what it feels like to lose a child, and they’re right until it happens to [00:07:00] you. It’s a life changing event. There’s no two ways about that. Mm-hmm. Gissele: And so what was the journey between hearing that your son had died to one, you had determined to spread the message to save the lives of other young people. Barry: Well, I’ll tell you a little bit about the process. Honestly, I was angry with God and I told him so I simply didn’t understand why a kind God would. You know, let my son die. And I tried to bargain with him and said, Hey, back up time, you’re God, take me, let him live. And I don’t think, as a parent, I’m unusual. That’s not, I don’t think that would be an unusual thought for anybody. Right? Gissele: No. Barry: But a couple days later, I had another life changing event. This is a little bit difficult for me to describe, but I’ll do my best. I was [00:08:00] laying in bed, it was about four o’clock in the morning and I was awake, and I just had this sense that someone had just came in the room, you know? Yeah. You have that feeling. Did somebody just walk in behind me or something? And then there was a light. A light I’ve never seen before and I haven’t seen since, and there was a message, and the message was that he didn’t suffer. And something very good would come from this. And I didn’t get a chance to say anything. it’s not words you hear, it’s just things, you know. I, it’s really Gissele: mm-hmm. Barry: I’m not a seance guy or anything like that. I just, that’s what happened. And I’m not here to tell everybody that that made everything okay. ’cause it didn’t. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: But it gave me a mission. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Barry: Right. And then we had to go pick up his [00:09:00] ashes. I remember going down to pick up his ashes and I walked in, you know, into a funeral home. They’ve got, you know, pictures on the wall and they’re playing music in the background. They take me into an office, sit me down in a big comfortable chair, or the desk in front of me. The funeral director walks in. Sets an urn down in front of me, an urn that held all the remain of the kid that I burped. I changed his diapers. I coached all kinds of different sports. I taught him to shoot a gun, swing, a golf club. All the remains of him were sitting in an urn in front of me. And at that moment I knew one thing, and that was that I didn’t want to be a victim. Because the world doesn’t need any more victims. We’ve got plenty already. The world needs people who take something bad and they make something good come from it. Gissele: This [00:10:00] might be a difficult question, so you can skip it if you want to, but what was your wife’s reaction like? Barry: that’s another part about grief. Right. She has been incredibly supportive of everything. Yeah. Was she terrified when I said I wanted to walk to Montana? Yes, we both were, but I knew. That’s what I wanted to do and. I had a lot of people try to talk me out of it. Gissele, right? Well-meaning people that I think they were afraid I was gonna fail. and you get that right? Yeah. Who do you think you are? Right? That’s a long ways of walk. But I had another guy that I talked to that said something that kind of sealed the deal. I really wasn’t gonna get talked out of it, but he said, well, how do you think you’d feel about it in 10 years if you don’t do it? Gissele: Ooh, perfect. Barry: Was it easy? No. [00:11:00] But I knew it didn’t matter. This was, this was what I needed to do. Gissele: So did you, you plan out the whole trip or was it like you were kind of just allowing yourself to be led where your next destination was? Barry: so the idea for the walk, first of all for those. Older individuals in your audience came from the movie Lonesome Dove. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it, has Tommy Lee Jones and Robert Duval. That was Kevin’s favorite movie. I won’t give away the ending of the movie. Mm-hmm. But I will tell you that that’s where the idea came from. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: But then you gotta figure out, you know, in the movie somebody did something on horseback, not like this, but something similar. Right. I knew I wasn’t gonna do it on horseback initially. I was gonna walk the Continental divide. But then I knew I wouldn’t be able to do the speaking stuff. Okay. So I’m gonna do the speaking stuff now. I need to get some help. Yeah. And I reached [00:12:00] out to people to sponsor me. I got a lot of. Nah, no thanks. But a nonprofit here in town, notmykid.org I spoke to them and they were in they set up all of the speaking engagements, but you can imagine the logistics around this we’re mm-hmm. Pretty challenging because they said, okay, well you gotta tell me what day you’re gonna be in all these towns. Yeah. So I had to give them a schedule. Of how, you know, how many miles am I gonna walk a week? When do I think I’m gonna be in this town? When do I think I’m gonna be in this town? And we got it figured out. I did. Were you a big walker before? I’ve ran marathons. Oh, okay. But walking was a different thing. one thing to say, I’m gonna go out tomorrow and walk 15 miles, right? Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: But it’s the wear and tear mm-hmm. Of every single day. And you can, I kind of [00:13:00] prepared for that by, on the weekends I’d go out and walk, you know, 15 miles each day or 20 miles each day. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: Kind of get a sense of what it was gonna feel like. But it’s. Pretty hard to judge what it’s gonna feel like repetitively. Right? There were ingrown toenails had plantar fasciitis, had knee issues. But I never took a single day off. I ended up walking seven days a week. I found it to be easier to just walk seven days a week. And there’s days I didn’t feel like going, but I always thought, eh, I might feel worse tomorrow. Maybe I better go try. And usually when I got out there I felt better. Gissele: Wow. So how did you find the messaging was received in the conversations that you had with young people because, drinking is kind of part of the culture, if you may. What were some of their comments or questions? [00:14:00] Barry: You know, my messaging has changed a lot through the years. In the beginning, Gissele, I was actually just reading it and I rationalized that, I don’t know if I told you about this before, but I rationalized this by saying, well, Martin Luther King read I Have a Dream Speech. Speaker 2: He read Barry: the whole thing and it was good, right? Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Barry: So I had it written out. But. I had so many places where teachers and principals would come up later and say, I have never seen those kids that quiet ever. And as it evolved, one of the things I started doing was telling the audience, but I’m not here to tell ’em how to live their life. I’m just here to tell you a story. And I really believe for students especially, and everybody, nobody wants to be told how to live their life, right? Who are you to get Speaker 4: up Barry: here? Tell me how to live my life. [00:15:00] I’m just here to tell you a story. And like I said there was some standing ovations in a few of them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But for me, when they’re that quiet you know, something’s going on. Gissele: Definitely. I’m sure I know that you’ve saved some lives Because I don’t know if kids are often educated on like how to drink, how to learn, how much. Alcohol to take? Like had your son had experience with alcohol before or was that really like the first time that he was out? Barry: He, there was a couple times where I suspected it and that, you know, one of the questions I often get asked is, you know, did you ever talk to him about alcohol? I didn’t talk to him much, any of the kids much about alcohol, but I did about drugs because we have an alcoholic in the family. And he always talked about how stupid he was and how he wasn’t ever gonna let that happen to him. You know, so in hindsight, [00:16:00] should I have done more of that? Yeah. and the question comes up, so when do you start talking to your kids about that? And my answer is, whatever you do, don’t wait until it’s too late. Gissele: Yeah. I think conversations about like. Sex, alcohol, drugs, all of that stuff. Ongoing conversations with children are important, and at the same time, we’re doing the best we can as parents, right? We don’t always anticipate, like you said, your son said that he wouldn’t do that sort of thing, right? Like sometimes you can’t anticipate. But as parents, we go back and question ourselves and say, could I have done that differently? Could I have done that better? What role did self-forgiveness have in your ability to undertake this journey? Barry: It was a big part of it, right? One of [00:17:00] the first things we did was agree that we’re not gonna play the blame game, right? I’m not gonna blame anybody at the party. I’m not gonna blame anyone. But, but the forgiveness part of it. Takes a while, especially forgiving yourself. I heard a pastor describe it best once, ’cause forgiveness is one of the things that’s one of my key takeaways is forgiveness. And what I tell everybody is anger and vengeance is only gonna lead to one thing. Destruction, forgiveness, leads to healing, and sometimes the most important person you need to forgive. Yourself. We all make mistakes. It’s the way you handle it. That really matters. ’cause I can’t change the past. I can only change the future. Gissele: Yeah. Barry: And that takes a long time to come to grips with Gissele. Right? That’s, it does. That’s not something the day after you’re, you’re [00:18:00] there. That’s about 19 years in the rear view mirror for me. Gissele: Yeah, definitely because we as parents put so much pressure on ourselves, we feel it’s our responsibility to keep our children safe. Even though your son had left home, there’s still that sense of, responsibility. it can feel definitely overwhelming, especially since like the thought is always, well, we’re gonna pass away before our children do. And so it’s not anything we’re gonna have to manage. They’re gonna have to manage our loss. But when it’s the reverse, you’re like, oh, this is not what I prepared for. And what you’re helping us learn is, is. It’s not about trying to avoid the things in life that causes suffering, but alchemizing the difficult moments into something where it could be a positive out of it. That doesn’t diminish the grief. It just helps us not hurt ourselves because I do [00:19:00] feel like path to grieve and the path to blaming and the path to punishment hurts us as much as it hurts the other people as well. Barry: it a hundred percent does. And one of my other key things for takeaways is about adversity. Yeah. Bad stuff happens to everybody. The way you respond to adversity is gonna define your life. And I’m living proof of that. divorces, whatever, you know, make the list, your boyfriend broke up with you, whatever. All of these things happen. And the way you handle them, they’re gonna define your life. They just are, it’s not the A’s and b’s in school generally. Mm-hmm. Its the way you handle adversity. Gissele: I wanna go back to that instance where you heard the voice say that something positive was gonna come. ’cause I’m sure there was a level of, reassurance did that help you rethink the whole concept of life or death [00:20:00] and whether or not things are final? Barry: You know I’m a Christian and we all believe that God is out there. We have to push the believe button. But when something like this happens you know he’s there. Right. And again, that, you know, you’ve heard people describe it, but I can’t describe that light. Gissele: Yeah. Barry: And I just knew. You know, it was God and it was kind of his voice, but I knew God was part of it and for me it moved. Gissele: You mean like Kevin’s voice? Barry: Yeah. Kind of his you know, because it seemed like he was pretty excited about it. Gissele: Hmm Barry: mm-hmm. Right. And it, it moved it from the theoretical to Oh yeah, he’s really there. He really [00:21:00] is. I mean, sometimes it’s you start to wonder if he’s really there, right? You start to wonder, well, is there really something there? And after this I can say, yeah, there’s life there. Gissele: Yeah, and and what you were saying, it takes it from a theoretical ’cause I think often we think of like God out there and we’re over here and we can feel so separate and so alone. And when you look at the state of the world, you wonder why things are the way that they are. And I think there is sort of a grander. Purpose and a grander picture that sometimes we don’t often see. But I think to have that reassurance, I myself have had a number of spiritual events that make you think, oh wait, here’s an experience to everything that I’ve been reading or wondering about, which makes you question. How final is death? now that doesn’t lessen the loss any less. we are [00:22:00] still in this physical experience where you don’t get to experience your son in the same way. Have you had any other interactions, like through dreams or any other ways where you have been able to connect? Barry: Well, I have no doubt that God was part of this process. And the reason I say that is I’m not the right guy to be doing this. I was never a public speaker. Mm-hmm. I’m a stay at home. I was telling somebody the other day, I had a really good month. ’cause I think I only put 50 miles on my car in a month. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Barry: I’m not that way, but I feel like it’s what He wants me to do. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: Right. And another interesting thing for me is that. You need to be quiet to really feel [00:23:00] where God might be pushing you. And I remember I I was up in the Bob Marshall wilderness up in, up in Montana, out in the middle of nowhere. I was sitting on top of this mountain with my uncle, and it was just, you know, utter silence. Right. Just. As quiet as it can be. And I turned to him and I whispered, man, it’s quiet up here. And he said, yeah. And it’s got a lot to say. Gissele: Mm mm-hmm. I love that. Barry: Yeah, because you have to understand it. I think we don’t have enough quiet time in our lives. Anymore. We’re just bombarded every single day with stuff. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There’s constant messaging and there’s constant looking on social media, and I think what you’re talking about is really the path inward to be able to address all of the difficult things you were talking about, to deal with grief [00:24:00] and not let it consume you, to deal with forgiveness and allow yourself to open up to that. You have to. Go through the emotions, right? Like you have to have felt the grief. You have to have felt the difficulty in forgiving because the mind immediately goes to, well, who was there, who could have taken care? Why didn’t they check more? And all of those things. Absolutely. Yeah. Barry: was there blame to go around? Yeah. The, the guy at the party was a 28-year-old this house that he moved into. There was a 28-year-old there who was renting the house rooms to 18 year olds. Right. So, you know, it is probably good situation, but was it Mikey’s fault? No. It, this was Kevin’s choice. This was his decision. Yeah. And that’s my third point is the two most important decisions you’re ever gonna make apart from following Jesus are about drugs and alcohol. It isn’t even close. [00:25:00] We all know stories. Right. You just, you need to educate yourselves as if your life and the lives of your kill children depend upon it. Speaker 2: Because Barry: it does, it just does. These are, these are society. We don’t talk a lot about how big this problem is. I googled it recently to find out how big the rehab industry is, and I believe the number was, people can look it up. I think it was around $35 billion a year. Wow. And it’s projected to grow at 5% a year. Gissele: it doesn’t, help. That’s alcohol in particular is, a legal drug, right. And the interesting thing that I observed during the pandemic was in Canada in particular, I don’t know about any other countries how they made alcohol more accessible, but of all the things they could have done during COVID, making alcohol more accessible, made me curious.[00:26:00] I’m like like what is it that you’re promoting or saying? it’s sort of like different departments working on different things. Like you’ve got a public health that tells you, like do things in moderation, take care of your body, eat. Then you’ve got another department that is like making alcohol more accessible. it doesn’t make sense. Barry: It’s a business, right? The alcohol industry is a business and they want to grow their industry and every opportunity they get to do that. Of course they’re gonna do it. Mm. You know do I blame them? No, not really, because it’s every, it’s your choice, right? Mm. It just, Gissele: yeah, for sure. It’s the Barry: education part of it. I think the prevention, you know, as I said, $35 billion a year on rehab. I guarantee you they don’t spend 35 billion a year on prevention. It’s largely onesie, twosie things. it’s a PowerPoint in one class at school. [00:27:00] And, and it takes a lot of different angles to get to kids, to students. You know, am I one part of it? Yeah. Is that the only part? Absolutely not. There are other things that help click with kids. You know, I’m not the only thing, but you know, some kids might click when you start talking about the chemical things that happen. I don’t know. But mm-hmm. There should be a little more, in my opinion, more focus on that prevention part. Gissele: Yeah. Agree. And I think that’s the beauty of the conversations you’re opening up space for. And also the opportunity for parents to not expect the school system or all these other systems to educate kids, right? Like we have conversations with our kids and I, gotta give credit to my husband. I was always one of the, the complete abstinence. We’re not gonna do drugs, we’re not gonna do anything. My husband’s like, well, that’s not realistic. Right? Yeah. Like, so just because you, that’s a choice you made for [00:28:00] yourself years ago. Doesn’t mean that that’s the thing they’re gonna make. The best thing we can do is arm them with information and tell them like, here, and Okay, this is what alcohol feels like in your body. This is what it tastes like. You know, you should pace yourself. Like see what it does to your body. See how long it takes in your body so that you can become familiar. So it’s not a thing that like kids go out in. and want to explore like in large quantities. My husband was telling me when we were having these conversations, as our kids were younger, he would say to me that the ones, the children whose parents oppressed them more like about like, you can’t do this. You can’t do that. Were the ones who probably explored it the most. He said when they were outside, they were the ones who were the binge drinkers. They were the ones, and he saw it and he was like. You know this, this person is hiding it. Whereas his mom, she used to have a drink with her when he came, home from high school. And so he learned how to [00:29:00] maneuver and how it felt in his body. And so he would never like get drunk or pass out or do any of that because he knew, he started to experiment and see, oh, okay, this is how it impacts. I observe other people. And so he started to get familiar with, okay, what it does, what it doesn’t do in my body. And what you’re talking about and the beautiful part about it is increasing their awareness of, okay, what’s my maximum? What’s the dangers? You don’t know? ’cause if you’re just taking shots and drinking, you’re not waiting for your body to process the alcohol, so you don’t know how much you’ve taken. Barry: You know, for me, and you know, nobody ever likes to talk about peer pressure when you’re younger, but mm-hmm. Peer pressure is there. The thing for me, and everybody’s different about this but for me you think, well, I need to impress these. My high school friends, I have one friend [00:30:00] that I still know from high school. I don’t know how many you have that you stay in contact with, but you know, my daughter said, well, I have ’em on Facebook. I said, well, you do, but how many are your friends? Mm-hmm. Oh. Two, three. Yeah. One. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. So you think you need to impress these people and you don’t, and that comes with age. You just start realizing that I don’t really care what they think of me. Gissele: Yeah. Barry: That’s the beauty of it is you get older, Yeah. Gissele: So thank you for raising this. ’cause I think this is really important, sort of the reasons why people take. Substances. Like sometimes people just wanna experiment. Their people are addressing pain, right? If their home life is an issue, or if they have experienced trauma sometimes, and the peer pressure thing I think is so fundamental. I remember this about myself when I was in my teens, I cared so much what people thought about me, and I [00:31:00] thought people were constantly thinking about me, which is not even true. They were only thinking about themselves. And that’s why I tell my kids, when I was in my twenties I thought, oh, all these people are looking at me. All these people are thinking of me And I’m like, they were not, yeah, they didn’t care about me. They were thinking about themselves and what other people were thinking about them. Yeah. And so I think that’s an important thing in terms of what helps young people develop that inner confidence. Remember that inner worthiness, Speaker 2: the worthiness of it. Yeah. Gissele: they don’t need to succumb to peer pressure, they are just enough as they are and to be of their authentic selves. And if you look at the school system, and I’m not complaining about the school system, but we are taught conformity. There is a right answer and wrong answer. Everybody should sit and be quiet. So the kids that struggle the most are the kids who are the most aberrant, right? Who don’t think the same way, who have struggles sitting down all day, because That’s not kids’ natural nature to [00:32:00] sit all day, right? And so what we’re taught to conform to this box and that there is this right answer versus wrong answer and color inside the lines. And so it shifts away from authenticity ’cause the need to belong, the need to fit in, the need to align. And so then later on we’re like, oh yeah, be yourself. Be authentically. well, I don’t know how to do that. I was only taught to conform and belong. Where is the role for the authentic in schools and for the divergence and difference Barry: and, and everybody learns differently. Gissele: Mm-hmm. Barry: Right? Just so many things there. I barely got outta high school. Speaker 2: Hmm. Barry: I simply didn’t understand the point. Speaker 2: Yeah, Barry: and I, I was only, it was only by the fear of my parents. That I got outta high school. I mean, it turns out, you know, once I went to college and I was paying for it, I got straight A’s, [00:33:00] but I just didn’t see the point. And I’ve realized through the years that everybody matures differently and everybody learns differently because there’s a lot of pressure on kids today to decide, okay, what are you gonna do with your life? What are you gonna be, I didn’t decide, I ended up waiting two or three years before I went to college. Mm-hmm. Because I didn’t know what I wanted to do. Right. And Speaker 2: yeah, and I Barry: think you have to know when you’re 18 years old because you’re 18 years old, and I think adults tend to forget that not everybody matures and in general girls mature before boys, let’s just call it what it is. But you need to give them time. They kind of figure it out. Gissele: absolutely. And I think that’s, a really important conversation. we need to give them time to explore all the things that they’re passionate about, that they really want to [00:34:00] do. Rather than trying to push them into a profession because I don’t know, like I changed my mind a lot. Like first I was gonna be a lawyer, then I ended up in child welfare, and now I’m doing something different. So there’s the opportunity to explore, the opportunity to find out what their real passions are, and to make a decision when you’re 18, 19, about the rest of your life, just doesn’t. make a lot of sense, right? what you’re passionate about now, but with the cost of education, that’s a huge investment you’re making or something you might not end up liking. So it just doesn’t seem to make sense. Right? Barry: Yeah. I think there are tests out there that can I’ve heard of some that can kind of tell you what you’re good at. Speaker 2: Hmm. Which Barry: kind of will help for me. I actually, short story. I actually got my pilot’s license before I got outta high school. Gissele: Oh, that’s cool. Barry: Yeah, because I had a class where the guy said, well, if you pass the private [00:35:00] pilot written, you can have an A in the class for the whole year and you don’t have to show up. So suffice to say, I ended up with my pilot pilot’s license. Yes. But I wanted to be in the Air Force. I wanted to fly jets and, and we took the tests and they said, well, you’d be good at electronics. I wanted to be a pilot. They wouldn’t let me do that. But I didn’t forget that they said I might be good at electronics. And so that’s what I did. Engineering stuff. And I’ve been in the same industry for 44 years. Mm-hmm. Because I found something that I kind of like doing this stuff. I mean, the job is a job, right. But I kinda like doing this stuff. Gissele: And that’s, that’s what I say to my children. I say, explore the world. Explore all the things that you’re excited about now. Right. Because, and that’ll get you through the path, even if it’s just like the next step, like you said, okay, this guy said you don’t have to come to class. I’d rather have some flying lessons. I [00:36:00] think that’s a great. Wait, have you ever flown since? Well, Barry: I got my pilot’s license, but I couldn’t afford to keep flying. Right. Mm-hmm. My dad paid for it as part of my graduation gift ’cause he didn’t think I would pass the p private pilot written. Oh. Because he said, well, if you do that, I’ll pay for your flight instruction. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Barry: So, but, you know, you talk about getting to places one of the questions I get asked is, did I ever think about quitting? On the walk. Yeah. The answer to that is no, but, but I started wondering what I got myself into. Speaker 2: Hmm. I Barry: wasn’t even outta Arizona. I was probably 150 miles into it, you know, like I said, this hurts, this hurts. and the problem I had was I was thinking about 1400 miles every day. I thought about, man, I got. 1300 miles to go. And so I just changed my mindset to I’m gonna walk [00:37:00] another three miles or four miles, take a break, see where we go from there. And it’s these baby steps that take you a long way. ’cause you look at something and say, well, I could never get that degree, or I could never get to that position where I would be able to do that in my life. But if you take these baby steps. You focus on those baby steps, then the next thing you know you’re in Montana. Gissele: Yeah, Barry: right. I mean, that’s really the way I thought of it is I didn’t want, because you think about, oh my gosh, I gotta do this every day for the next four months. And I just started thinking, all right, my wife Bev met me about every three or four miles. She’d go up there and park and I’d go up and take a little break and then move on. And it’s a great metaphor for life, I think. Gissele: Yeah, absolutely. I have a friend who would say, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. [00:38:00] Barry: Yes. When you are thinking Gissele: about the whole elephant, you’re gonna be full. But if you just take it one bite at a time, and like you said, That’s definitely a great metaphor for life. Is that how long it took you? Four months? Barry: Yeah. It took about four months. I averaged about 90 miles a week. Just met a lot of wonderful people along the way. Mm-hmm. It just. The world is a little bit jaded, but there’s a lot of wonderful people out there that, that just want to help. I had people bring me brownies and milk. People stopped every day and asked if I needed a ride. You know, what are you doing out here in the middle of nowhere? You know, it’s raining and, ’cause I, I walked in a fair amount of rain and get in the car. I’m like, no, I’m good. Whatcha doing out here? So then I have to tell ’em the story and yeah. But you meet a lot of wonderful people. Mm-hmm. Gissele: Yeah. It made me think of like, gump when he started running and there was a whole bunch of people that were running behind him. Yeah. And they’re like, what are running for? Barry: You get [00:39:00] that, you get a lot of people. I think it was a lot easier to do. I’ve actually driven the route, just drove it here a couple months ago. A fair amount of it. There really wasn’t nearly as much traffic as there is on those roads today. Gissele: Oh wow. Barry: You know, two lane roads, you’re walking that whole thing and you. It’s, it’s busy now. It wasn’t nearly as busy 20 years ago. Gissele: Yeah. And was it all gravelly? Like some of those roads are usually gravelly where you walk, like there’s not paved. Barry: These were all paved roads. They were all two lane roads. I kind of wanted to walk on the freeway because it was a straighter shot, but I could not get the Department of Public Safety in any of the states to tell me. They wouldn’t kick me off the freeway. So I had to stay on two lane roads, which added a few miles to it. But you get to see a lot of country too when you do that. Mm-hmm. Gissele: I mean, Barry: you get to let your mind wander and Oh wow. Look at that over there. You know, when you [00:40:00] drive by stuff, you don’t really see it. You just doing 70 miles an hour down the road. You don’t see it. But it was, and I tell everybody. Like, if I can pull off something like this, imagine what you can do. I’m not all that clever. I it’s just one of those things that I tell students you could do something even cooler, I’m sure of it. Gissele: Hmm. How did it feel when you reached the end? It’s a very emotional when you got to the end, what was that like? Barry: You know, it’s funny you asked that question. So I wrote the book, it’s Kevin’s Last Walk. It’s on Amazon. But when I wrote the book, I wanted to get feedback and this is where I’m going with this. And I had a, a group of book club. I printed it out and let ’em read it and I said, okay, I need everybody to tell me one thing you didn’t like about the book. One of ’em said, you told me more about your shoe selection than you did about how you felt when you finished the walk. [00:41:00] Because I hadn’t really, it was a relief physically, but at that point I didn’t know what was next and people would ask me, what’s next for you? And I’m like, I don’t know. But it turned out that. Now I can go tell the story about going on the walk and all the things that led up to going on the walk. And it’s evolved a lot through the years because my wife Bev was really helpful because when you, with the books, if you ever write a book, don’t have any family or friends read it because they’ll read it and say it was great. Speaker 2: Hmm. Barry: Mm-hmm. That’s the same way my wife Bev would tell me. ’cause she would sit in the back of the room and tell me, now you lost the audience with that. You need to either redo it or get rid of it. Speaker 2: Yeah. Barry: And so that helped me to [00:42:00] refine. Things because you need people that’ll actually, you need people in your life that’ll actually give you honest criticism. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Barry: Right? And, she did. She’s like, you lost them with that. You know, and that’s, that’s how it’s evolved into what it is today. Gissele: Mm. That’s beautiful. Barry: Yeah. Gissele: Thinking about your children, I mean, you talk about how you and your wife sort of manage the grief. What were your children’s journeys in losing a sibling? And did your journey itself help them cope with a loss? Barry: I think it did. One of the things that we did that not every family does, is we didn’t stop talking about Kevin. Because sometimes when a someone loses a child, nobody wants to talk about it anymore, which to me, and again, I have a different perspective on this.[00:43:00] Yeah. That’s not healthy because that person was a part of your life for the last however many years. You don’t just stop talking about him. And I think that’s a healthy way to manage the grief. Right. we all talked about we’re not gonna play the blame game. Right. We talked about that stuff. My one daughter, he had, Kevin had left a message for her that night, and I don’t know if to this day if she turns her phone off at night. I think she might, I’ll have to ask her. ’cause the last time I talked about it, she said, you know, I haven’t turned my phone off since then. when she goes to bed, she doesn’t put it on silent. Because she missed that voicemail. Would she have done anything about it? Speaker 2: Yeah. I Barry: dunno. Right. But I think it’s kind of been probably been therapeutic for all of ’em, although I will say that I don’t know that any of ’em have read the book Gissele: If you had something to [00:44:00] say to young people about the dangers of binge drinking what would that be Barry: for me is to just know that it can happen to you. Nobody ever believes, including me, is that it’s ever gonna happen to you. I never believed anything would happen to him. And, you know, he had an attitude of, you know, 10 feet tall and bulletproof. Right? Most people do. It can happen to you. don’t worry about what other people think about you. Yeah. If you think it’s the right thing to do, then you should do it right. Don’t worry about it. Because like you said, those people are worried about themselves, not you. Gissele: [00:45:00] Yeah. Barry: Yeah. Gissele: Last few questions. So I ask all my guests what their definition of love or unconditional love is. Barry: For me you have to have humility to be able to really bond with somebody. I think you need to let go and not have to be right about everything. In marriage and in life. You know, if you become one of those people that has to be right about everything. That’s, that’s harder to love. But really loving everyone is about caring about them and setting an example and setting an example of love. Gissele: I think that’s what you’re doing with these presentations in the book and all the work that you do. I think coming at it from [00:46:00] a place of, I’m not telling you what to do, I’m just sharing my story in hopes that it will help you, that it’ll be of benefit to you. I think it’s the ultimate sort of act of love for your son. So last question. Where can people find you? Where can they find the book? Where can they work with you or listen to your presentations? Please share anything. Barry: The book is on Amazon. if you just search for my name, Barry Adkins, it should come up pretty close to the top. What I tell my big message is I still speak at schools. And I would love to come to your school. I just need to get connected and we’ll make it happen. On Facebook. It’s Kevin’s last walk. You can certainly message me there, or it’s http://www.kevinslastwalk.com. Just reach out. Most of the stuff I do is. I end up getting speaking opportunities through podcasts. Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Barry: People will reach out, or the podcaster Speaker 2: mm-hmm. Barry: Will [00:47:00] connect me with someone. And I’ve done a few of ’em that way, where we made the connections and we make it happen. and the big thing there is that I’m not looking to make money on this, Gissele, if I have to travel, there’s travel costs, but. There isn’t a big speaker fee on that. I just want to come and tell the story and I don’t want money to be in the way. Gissele: Yeah, Barry: bring me in. We’ll do it. Gissele: Sounds great. Thank you everyone for listening to another episode of Love and Compassion with Gissele. Thank you Barry for being on the show and sharing your wisdom. And thank you to everyone to tune in. Have a great day.

TRANSCRIPT video1290704010 Gissele : [00:00:00] Was Martin Luther King Jr. Right? Does love have the power to turn an enemy into a friend? Does it have the power to heal? We are creating an inspiring documentary called Courage to Love. The Power of Compassion explores the extraordinary stories of individuals who have chosen to do the unthinkable, love and forgive even those who have caused the most deep harm. Through their journeys, we will uncover the profound impact of forgiveness and love, not only on those offering it, but also on those receiving it. In addition, we’ll hear from experts who will explore whether loving compassion are part of our human nature and how we can bridge divides with those we disagree with. If you’d like to support our film, please donate at www MAI tt R-I-C-E-N-T-R e.com/documentary. [00:01:00] Hello and welcome to The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking about not feeling good enough and what we can do to start feeling better. Our guest today is Sabrina Trobak Based out of Fort St. John BC Canada is a registered clinical counselor and author of the book, not Good enough, understanding Your Core Belief in Anxiety. She’s also a clinical supervisor, public speaker, and holds a master’s degree in counseling psychology. Before establishing her practice, she dedicated over 20 years to education, serving as a teacher, vice principal, school counselor across three school divisions. Sabrina, has extensive training in addressing trauma in its effects on daily life, [00:02:00] including anxiety and the core beliefs. Of not being good enough, not important, not valued. Her counseling agency Trobak. Holistic counseling aims to help individuals identify, challenge, and transform these core beliefs into being good enough, important enough, and value. Please join me in welcoming Sabrina. Hi, Sabrina. Sabrina: Hi. Nice to be here. It’s nice to meet you. Gissele : Oh, nice to meet you too. Thank you for being on the show. I was wondering if you could start by telling the audience what sort of led you to do this sort of work? Sabrina: I always wanted to be a teacher, you know, even in kindergarten, I was the kindergartner helper that helped other kids tie their shoes. Just was always something I wanted to do is be a teacher. Towards the end of my teaching career, I was a school counselor. And even as a teacher, I was a learning assistant teacher, so I did a lot of work in smaller groups, working more individually with students. So you get [00:03:00] to create a much deeper connection because you’re working one-on-one as opposed to a class size of, you know, 25, 30, 35, whatever it might be. And so then I went into counseling. Same thing. You really get to build that relationship. And then I went to a workshop on suicide. That was looking at suicide, more of a symptom of that core belief. Feeling not good enough. Not important, not valued. At the end of the workshop, I just thought, this is what I need to do. So the presenter, Tony Martins taught me his model of therapy. I quit teaching and started my own private practice, which really uses that as the focus point. So really going back and helping people understand and support and challenge that core belief. I started my own private practice in 2010. And within about six months I had a waiting list and I hated having to turn people away. The model I practice where we’re really addressing that core belief is a long-term model of [00:04:00] therapy. So a lot of my clients are with me a year and a half, two years, sometimes even longer. And so I decided to write the book not good enough as a way to provide a resource for people who can access counseling for whatever reason. Gissele : That’s beautiful. Thank you. And reflecting on your teaching experience, did you find that students were suffering from not feeling good enough? And do you think that’s changed? Sabrina: Students, teachers, parents, administration, support staff? Yeah, it’s kind of a worldwide thing. You know, I think it’s been there for a really long time. I think what we’re seeing a difference in is. People are talking more about mental health. So rather it being this thing that we just kept down and suppressed and pretended wasn’t an issue. Now we’re talking about it and the problem with that is we don’t necessarily know what to do with it now that we’re talking about it. So it seems like it’s kind of imploding all over the place. But you know, I think it’s been going on forever and [00:05:00] ever, and ever and ever. In fact, your core belief develops based on your parents’ core belief. If your parents’ core belief was not good enough, not important, not valued, they can’t really teach you anything else. So that means that was that generation. Well, where did they get it from? Their generation, and it just kind of goes on and on and on and on. Gissele : I really appreciated that you said that. ’cause that has been my experience that we are just now vocalizing the fact that we have these feelings. And to some people it’s like, we didn’t have these things before. That’s just simply not true. It’s just that now it’s feeling safer to talk about it. We want to address the issues and want to understand where this sort of came from. I wanted to really. Touch on the concept of not good enough. Because at least in my experience, I wasn’t that sort of person that criticized themselves. I didn’t say call myself a loser. My not good enough actually showed up in a very different way, in a [00:06:00] very covert way. I would say in terms of limiting my dreams or really negative thinking in terms of like catastrophizing. how does not feeling good enough show in different people? is there specific patterns or is it just very different depending on the person? Sabrina: I think the main pattern is it holds you back. it doesn’t allow you to feel content, feel peaceful, feel confident. That would be a common pattern, but what that can look like can vary significantly. Also, the degree of your core belief can play a significant role as well. You might be feeling, you know, actually pretty good enough, important and valued just once in a while. That not good enough, not important, not value comes up. All the way to the other where really everything, every thought you have is reinforcing and supporting that not good enough, not important, not valued. So it can look like a variety of different ways. We get clients who come into counseling for all kinds of different things. [00:07:00] Relationship issues, anxiety, depression. They can’t really sleep. They’re having nightmares. Pornography gambling, alcohol, drugs, cheating, lying you name it, all kinds of different things. What we say is. These aren’t really the problem. These are the symptoms of that core belief. If your core belief is not good enough, not important, not valued, you need to distract, but you’re gonna be going to things that allow you to distract that ultimately end up reinforcing that core belief because it gives you something to beat yourself up over. Hmm. So it can look like a variety of different behaviors For sure. Gissele : Do you ever see people with like health issues? Sabrina: Oh, all the time, for sure. Mm-hmm. Stomach issues, headaches, sore aches and pains. What happens when with that core belief not good enough? it creates a lot of self-doubt and insecurity. Anxiety is lack of [00:08:00] confidence. Not believing in yourself. You can handle something. A lot of people think anxiety is about the trigger, right? I have anxiety of driving on the highway. If it really was about driving on the highway, then no one would be driving on the highway. So it’s not about that. It’s about my belief and my ability to handle it. So if I believe I can handle driving on the highway, I’m not gonna have anxiety. If I can’t, I believe I can’t handle it. I will have anxiety. So that anxiety, that self-doubt, every time we go into anxiety, that fight, flight, freeze, adrenaline gets dumped into our body. That gives us that boost of energy to fight or to run away. But if I’m creating all of this anxiety in my head through my own thoughts, or it’s creating a sense of danger, I think I’m in danger, but I’m not really in danger. It’s the catastrophizing thoughts, the negative thoughts, the beating yourself up, the what if scenarios. Every time you go into that fight, flight, freeze, that adrenaline, that energy has to come from somewhere.[00:09:00] So what happens is it zaps all of our non-vital organs. Stomach, bladder, pancreas, kidney, liver, skin all of our non-vital organs get zap of energy. So if you have really high anxiety where you’re going into this fight, flight, freeze response, hundreds of times a day, you are going to see a physical impact. Absolutely. You know, if your stomach is being zapped a hundred times a day, don’t expect it to digest food properly. That’s, it’s just not gonna work. Gissele : Oh, thank you for that. I really appreciate that. That also got me to think about my experiences with trust. I used to have huge trust issues ’cause I was raised with like, my parents also had views and trauma and, it was when I realized that I didn’t trust myself to deal with people’s betrayal, not necessarily trusting the other people, that things shifted for me. It was me realizing that it was like, oh, this is about me. This isn’t about them. And their behavior, whatever they choose to do, is [00:10:00] entirely up to them. if they choose to betray me, well then that’s their choice. But it was about me. What are some things that can help someone become more aware of whether or not. They’re not feeling good enough. Sabrina: You know, I think that one, the one that you just kind of said where you don’t trust, you think you can’t trust in other people. Anything where you’re doing, where you’re focusing on others, blaming others caring to others, people pleasing for others, judging others, gossiping about others. All that time that you spend focusing on other people is all time. You’re not spending on yourself. Why is that? It’s usually because that core belief is there. We don’t like ourselves, we don’t wanna deal with it, so we’re focusing on all these outward things. As long as you’re fo focusing outward, there’s likely a bit of that core belief going there, and it’s not gonna get better until you focus more inward. Gissele : Mm, [00:11:00] yeah. To what extent do you feel like the systems we’ve created also perpetuate that, continue that belief? So not only the belief that kids were taught from their parents, but also when entering in these different systems that we have created. Sabrina: You know, I think a, a lot of our systems are very symptom based. So, you know, I have anxiety. Okay, we’ll do these things to deal with the, anxiety you have depression. Okay, we’ll do these things to deal with the depression. You have anger, okay, here’s some anger management strategies, rather than really looking at why is it there in the first place. What’s fueling those things? So our society in general often has a very bandaid, approach. Just put a bandaid on it. But if you have a wound and you just put bandaids on top of bandaids, on top of bandaids, that wound doesn’t just not heal. It gets worse, it gets more infected, it becomes more painful. It creates more stress, more anxiety. [00:12:00] And so we really need to take that bandaid off. But our society, you know, even medical right? I have a sore throat, they just address the throat rather than looking at is there something going on that’s feeding that right? Yeah. our, policing system is all very reactive and again, very kind of punitive and system based rather than really what’s going on here, what’s feeding all of this underlying stuff. Gissele : Yeah, and I think it comes from the separation from within ourselves, right? Like not really understanding or seeing ourselves holistically and our separation from each other and from nature. And I think that’s kind of why we have these systems. Sabrina: And I think part of why we even have that system is because if I deal with the surface doesn’t create a lot of emotion. Mm. If I go a bit deeper, ooh, that creates more emotion, vulnerability, fear. Abandoned. Lonely. I don’t like to feel those emotions, so keep it surface. Minimal emotions have to play. One of the [00:13:00] big things that drives that core belief and a big issue in our society is. We don’t really feel our emotions again, I think we’re getting better at talking about them, but now it’s almost like, oh, I’ve got emotion. I need to stop rather than I’ve got emotion. I need to feel it so I can move through it. And so that emotion piece is massive. We keep things very surface, so we don’t really have to feel. Gissele : Yeah, absolutely, as children, some of us were taught like, don’t feel or only limit the scope of emotions. You can feel these emotions are okay, these emotions are not. And this took me a long while to realize that the reason why my emotions were limited, at least by my parents and people in my life. They didn’t have the emotional girth to be able to hold space for my difficult feelings. So they did not teach me how to hold space for my difficult feelings and how to hold space for my kids’ difficult feelings. And so it was a journey where I really had to understand and it took me shifting my [00:14:00] perspective because I think originally I felt it was my fault, right? As I got older and became a parent, I realized, oh, they didn’t have the space, so they had to squash my emotions in order for them not to feel uncomfortable because they couldn’t cope with it. Sabrina: If I’m as a parent, if I don’t like to feel my emotions, now my child is feeling emotion, well that creates emotion in me, but I don’t wanna feel my emotions, so I need to shut my child down. It’s okay. It’s not really that big of a deal. It’s fine. You’ll get over it. You know, you’re worrying about nothing. Minimize, minimize, minimize, which is teaching your child shut down and suppress their emotions as well. Where did they learn it from? Right. You know, if we’re not learning how to feel our emotions, we are learning how to suppress our emotions. Gissele : Yeah. Yeah. And then that comes out in a different way, in the worst parts of my journey in learning to love myself and, step into that worthiness was I realized a pattern I had some unexpected things [00:15:00] happen in my life that were shocking to me. they had such a traumatic effect that I would actually, with my negative thinking, create negative experiences so that I could control them. does that make sense? Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Gissele : but I wasn’t aware that I was doing that, So that uncertainty was very frightening for me and it’s very frightening for very many people. I’m just curious as to your thoughts about that. Sabrina: You know what I think uncertainty. Again, what feeds that is that core belief. So we can have all kind of experiences happening. If I don’t believe I can handle them there, there’s gonna be a lot of stress over all these situations. But if my core belief is good enough, important and valued, whatever comes up, I think o okay. I got it. this isn’t gonna be easy. This is gonna be a lot of work, but I can handle it. I can figure it out. But when there’s that uncertainty and that self-doubt often, rather than again, working inward on what do I need to do to build my confidence? We work look outward on how do [00:16:00] I control these things. And of course you can’t control anything but yourself. So you may have these things under control for a period of time, but eventually things are gonna collapse and then you can go, oh, see, no one cares reinforces and support’s not good enough. So as long as you’re using control as a way to try to. Try to kind of handle situations. It, it’s not gonna be highly successful. It’s about within yourself, building that confidence within yourself. Mm-hmm. Gissele : What has been your experience with surrender? I have found in my life and my experience that the more I surrender, the less resistance I have to things, the less I need to control. the more things work out, sort of in a very smooth way. does surrender have a role Sabrina: what we kind of refer to it as is responsibility. Do I have responsibility in this? If I do, then what’s my role? If I don’t, then it’s okay to me, for me to just remove [00:17:00] myself from it. And so we wanna look at that. if I have something that I do need to be accountable, I will take accountability for my part. But I’m not gonna worry about taking accountability for everyone else’s part. And if I have someone in my life who refuses accountability over and over and over again, then I need to learn from that and realize my expectations for this person need to look very different. Maybe I choose not to have them in my life. Maybe I do. But those boundaries look a bit different rather than constantly trying to get them to take responsibility. I realize that that’s not my place. I need to just figure out me. That’s it. Hmm. Gissele : Are there any sort of behaviors that don’t outwardly seem as issues of not being good enough but are or might be? Sabrina: Busyness is a big one. You know, it’s almost a bit of a bragging rights in our society to be busy, right? Oh, I’m so busy. I got this activity, I got this, I got my kids, I got this, I got this, I got [00:18:00] this. Busyness is not good. Mm-hmm. Busyness is a distraction. As long as I’m, again, running around focusing on all these things, you know, out in front of me, that’s all time I can use to avoid and distract from what’s really going on within me. So we often see that as a pretty significant symptom. Same with control. Micromanaging. A lot of people may see that as a healthy coping strategy, but it really is not a healthy coping strategy. You know, when we look at coping strategies, one of the things we talk about is, you know, a coping strategy in itself is not really healthy or unhealthy. It’s how I choose to use it, right? Mm-hmm. So if I go out and have a drink of wine with, you know, a couple girlfriends once every couple weeks or whatever, it’s probably a healthy coping strategy. But if I’m drinking because I’m feeling emotions and I need to numb everything, and I’m drinking way too much, and it’s damaging relationships. Then it’s more of an [00:19:00] unhealthy coping strategy. So we really need to look at why are we using it, if we’re using it so that at the end we feel good, we feel content. It makes us feel proud of how we’re handling things. It’s allowing us to feel our emotions sort through things. Probably healthy coping strategy. Unhealthy usually is used to the extreme, either way too extreme or we shut it off and don’t do it at all. Like exercise Now I’m not exercising at all. And so it’s used to the extreme. It’s used to escape and avoid dealing with things. It’s used to numb our emotions so we don’t have to feel our emotions. It ultimately, after we do it, we feel guilt, bad regret, reinforcing and supporting. Not good enough, not important, not valued. So rather than looking specifically at the behavior, we need to look at why am I using it? That’s gonna give you more idea of which core belief you are reinforcing. Gissele : So what do you think the role of compassion is in [00:20:00] helping somebody go through the difficult emotions? Because as a person who has done it, who sat with probably the most challenging emotions that she has faced, a lot of the fears, it can feel really overwhelming. What helps people sort of titrate or stay in it long enough to get to the other side of it? Sabrina: You know, I think like most things, it’s really about practice. The more you practice it, the more comfortable it becomes. You know, with a lot of my clients that are in their thirties, forties, fifties, you know, my oldest clients are in their seventies. They’ve spent decades avoiding feeling emotion. And so how do you start to feel emotion where that doesn’t feel absolutely overwhelming? ’cause most of them are full up with emotion. So the thought of feeling emotion is just too much. So we always go back and start very, very small. You know, I have a emotions list on my website, but really if you Google Emotions list, you’ll, you’ll find a hundred of them. I tell my clients, print them off, [00:21:00] put them all over your house. Then when you start feeling angry, overwhelmed, just kind of off like something’s bothering you, pick up the emotion list and just read through it. The emotions that you are feeling, you’ll recognize. So now you’re starting. Don’t even have to say it out loud, just read it. So you allow yourself to feel the emotion just a little tiny bit. Doesn’t feel quite as overwhelming. Then after you’ve done that a few times, then you can say the words out loud. ’cause even saying sad out loud creates a bit of sadness. So now I’m feeling a bit more confident. I keep using that for a while, then I get to that place where I can just stop and think about what I’m feeling in the moment. But it takes time and practice. You gotta build that up. So I think a big part of compassion is. Confidence. I have to believe in myself. I can handle being compassionate to myself and to others. Once we build that confidence, then that compassion almost just seems to more just kind [00:22:00] of naturally flow because we can let our own defenses down and really just be present and in the moment with ourselves or with others. Gissele : so thank you for that. I really appreciated that. what are some of the things or signs that will help them know that they’re changing, for example, that they’re starting to feel more good enough? Because I think sometimes we are very good at saying, these are the signposts of things that aren’t working, but what are some signposts of things where people are like, yeah, you know what? Things are changing. You’re changing. Sabrina: You don’t feel as stressed at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. You’re sleeping a little bit better, you smile a bit more. Mm-hmm. You are open to other people’s opinions, thoughts. criticism, feedback you’re not as defensive. You’re able to kind of just listen to what someone else is saying. You’re getting better at feeling your emotions and sorting through your emotions. You are [00:23:00] using more healthier coping strategies that at the end of it, you feel proud of yourself. Right. Whether it’s going for a walk or listening to music or doing some journaling, at the end of it, you feel like, wow, I, you know, I, I handled that really well. You are more patient, you are more calm. you are more open to other people’s suggestions. All those kind of things are suggesting you believing more in yourself. You can handle more. That means that core belief is shifting. You’re willing to take risks, try new things, listening to podcasts, different things like that where you’re stepping outta your comfort zone, creating new opportunities and experiences. Gissele : Yeah. Yeah. Somebody that I was talking to was saying that they’re gonna take two things that make them uncomfortable, like two risks a day. I thought that was pretty cool. Like a pretty cool idea to become more, much more comfortable with discomfort, right? Sabrina: For sure. [00:24:00] Remember, anxiety is lack of confidence, not believing in yourself. You can handle something, so every time you try something new. There should be more anxiety because it’s something you haven’t done before. Mm-hmm. Right. Even just building your confidence in taking risks and trying something new where now, oh, it’s scary, but I know I can handle it. ’cause I’ve stepped outta my comfort zone many times as well. One of the things we say in this model of therapy is nothing really stays the same. Yeah. So if you are not challenging and stepping outta your comfort zone, it’s getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. Gissele : Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. I’ve had many conversations with different people in my life and one of the things it’s like. I don’t like to say pick your hard but it is sort of like that if you face your, difficult emotions now, later on, it gets easier. The more that you choose from fear, the more you constrict and constraint, the smaller and smaller and smaller your world becomes. And it [00:25:00] feels much more difficult to do it. Later on do you find that your older clients tend to struggle a little bit more or is it just sort of buried? Sabrina: Well, okay. That’s a good question. So a lot of it is buried, but once we start opening it up, then yeah. And one of the things that the older clients have to recognize and acknowledge. Is the hurt they’ve caused to their adult children, their grandchildren, maybe even their great grandchildren, whereas someone who’s in their twenties and thirties, they haven’t had nearly enough time to hurt as many people. And so there’s not as much of that kind of responsibility piece with it, for sure. you know, hurt people, hurt people. So if I was hurting, the chances that I did things to hurt other people is really, really high. Part of the counseling that we do is we need to acknowledge it and sort through that. ’cause as long as I’m carrying a bunch of stuff where I’ve hurt other people, why would I believe I have the right to a happy content life? it’s not [00:26:00] balanced. So I need to deal with all those things that I’ve done to hurt people in order to really, truly heal. Hmm. Gissele : Yeah. And that’s very powerful. Shame and guilt can feel really overwhelming, right? people that don’t know how to regulate their emotions will do almost anything to avoid the feeling of shame, right? Because underneath there there’s a belief that you won’t be loved. And so what helps people work through the whole concept of shame? Sabrina: You know, I think shame loves not good enough and not good enough loves shame. They just feed off of each other for sure. And so it often is this thing that we’ve done that we feel bad about doing, and rather than just acknowledging it and addressing it, and understanding why we made the choices that we did. We just hold onto it. and as long as you’re carrying a lot of shame, you’re not gonna feel happy and content in your life. they just don’t balance out. Shame is significant. So one of the things you wanna do is, first, manage some of those other emotions. [00:27:00] Get better at feeling, you know vulnerability, loved, connected powerless, vulnerable, unheard and then start looking into the shame after you’ve had some experience feeling some of those other ones. If you start off with shame it’s almost too overwhelming and we just end up shutting it off. Then you have to acknowledge and allow yourself to feel that, take responsibility for the actions that created that shame, and then you can start to kind of move on. You know, guilt’s another one. a lot of us were raised with parents who used guilt as a parenting coping strategy. So it’s ingrained in our head that we just automatically feel guilty about everything because that’s how our parents tried to control our behaviors. So that’s a really ingrained thinking pattern more than an emotion. It is a thinking pattern. Mm-hmm. The good thing about that is we can go back and change it. The definition we use of guilt is [00:28:00] not living up to someone’s expectations, usually our own. Hmm. So once I challenge those expectations and change the expectations, the guilt goes down. So, for example, if I was always taught, you never say no, you please everyone don’t ever wanna upset or make anyone else unhappy. That’s my pattern of thinking, sacrifice to make everyone else happy. But now I’m thinking I wanna have a voice. I wanna start saying, no, I wanna start taking care of myself. Well, those collide. Yeah. I can’t say no and make everyone else happy. So I have to change and adjust my expectations. So my expectation now is I need to be respectful when I say no, but it is okay if I have a voice and it is inconvenience or awkward for the other person. That’s for them to figure out. Now as I tell myself that I’m not gonna feel guilty because I’m expecting that this may be uncomfortable for them, and that’s okay. That [00:29:00] guilt dissipates guilt’s more of a thought than it really is an emotion. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. You mentioned the difference between thoughts and emotions. And, and this is just my perspective, I usually find that. All emotions begin with a thought. So you usually have a thought first, which you have interpreted, and then some somehow have a big emotion about or not. Right? And so is it accurate that The habits that are formed from just your thoughts are easier to manage than ones that are based on thoughts and emotions. Sabrina: That’s how emotions are created. So what happens is we have a thought that creates a chemical reaction that we then feel physiologically in our body creating the emotion. Our thoughts create our emotions. So the good thing about that is if I’m feeling really anxious and I challenge and control my thoughts, the anxiety goes away. Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Sabrina: Right? If I’m [00:30:00] feeling really angry and I can stop and go, what are my thoughts? And I can realize, oh yeah, those thoughts are gonna create anger, challenge, and change those thoughts, the anger goes away. So neutral thoughts gonna create neutral emotions. But if we’re having thoughts of people hurting us, of feeling taken advantage of feeling you know, of being unappreciated, that is going to create emotions that we then feel physiologically in our body. Gissele : Mm-hmm. you mentioned that whole concept of not good enough. Where does self-love fit into the whole concept of good enough? Sabrina: the more you feel good enough, important and valued, the more you feel loved and content, right? Our kind of end goal is that contentment. You just feel peace within yourself. you love yourself. I’m always a bit cautious around the word love. Because it has been warped in many situations. Yeah. I’ve heard [00:31:00] clients tell me love means taking abuse. Mm-hmm. Love means sacrificing myself to not cause any, issues. Love means keeping secrets. Yeah. Right. Then we have the other extreme where we say, I love you now almost too much. It’s almost like, hi. Like I’ll say, oh, you know I love you. Oh, and I love spaghetti. Well, Gissele : yeah. Sabrina: So what does that really mean? So I think we need to even be aware of what is my definition of love? Is it a healthy definition or is it more of an unhealthy definition? And then what? What else does that look like? Contentment. Peace, calm thoughts. You know it, you’ve gotta define it. love is almost a bit of that symptom word. We need to go deeper. We’ve gone through generation, you know, my parents were never said, I love you. Never said it at all. and didn’t have to, didn’t create any emotions. But now we still don’t wanna say feel emotions, so now we [00:32:00] say, I love you a thousand times. So it really still doesn’t create a lot of emotion. Mm-hmm. So I find that balance and really be careful of what that word means to us, for sure. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for that. And so using whatever different term you’re gonna use, as long as you’re getting at the same thing which is about thriving, I think is really important. You mentioned that anxiety is lack of confidence. What’s depression? Sabrina: they go together in a cycle, right? Mm-hmm. So anxiety is that fight, flight, freeze on guard, ready to attack. Well, you can only do that for so long and it’s exhausting. So then we kind of slip into the depression where I just don’t have to feel anything. I can curl up in a bit of a ball. I don’t have to deal with anything, but then that kind of passes I feel a bit better. So I come out of that, but now I’m in that fight flight freeze again. So we often see depression and anxiety often working together in a cycle for sure. Depression, you know, is [00:33:00] another way of reinforcing and supporting that not good enough if I feel not good enough. Not important, not valued. What’s the point? Why bother? So, you know, just like we talked about how that core belief can present in alcohol, drugs, gambling, anxiety is one. Depression is one as well. Gissele : I also wanted to emphasize the fact that, you know, the work that you’re doing is focusing on people feeling good enough from within. Many people try to find it from outside, whether it be through overworking, like you mentioned, through acquiring all the things they think they should have or by acquiring love from outside. What sort of the mindset shift that needs to happen for people to realize that? It’s something that they can give to themselves from within versus from without. Because if you look at this world, everything in this world that we teach is get it from the external. Sabrina: if my core belief is not good enough, not important, not [00:34:00] valued, I don’t believe I have much to offer even to myself. But if I get it in a car, a big house, if I get a new dirt bike, if I have the best, whatever it is mm-hmm. Then I’ll be good enough. Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Sabrina: As long as you’re looking externally, you’re not going to find it. But if I don’t believe in myself, I don’t really believe that I have it within even myself. So I think that’s one of the first stages, is really becoming more aware of where is my core belief at. How much do I really give myself that opportunity to feel good enough, important and valued. Once you become aware, even just becoming aware starts to develop that core belief good enough, important and valued. ’cause now you know what’s there and you’re willing to challenge it. Honestly, if I don’t think I can even handle doing that, I’m not going to. So once we even start to become aware of it, that core belief is shifting. Once that core belief shifts, then we can continue to build on it little tiny step at a time where we start to find more of our own worth and [00:35:00] value within ourselves. As we do that, we just naturally start to kind of look more inward and don’t worry so much about the outside stuff. Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Gissele : But the journey towards. Shifting from not feeling good enough to feeling good enough can sometimes feel very challenging, right? Because you are dealing with difficult emotions. What are some of the things that keep people moving forward? Sabrina: it can be absolutely terrifying, you know? Mm-hmm. I’ll say to my clients, going through and challenging and changing this core belief is going to be one of the hardest things you’ve ever done. The only thing maybe harder is living the way you’ve been living. Yeah. Right. But the only way to really keep is you gotta let all that stuff out. Well, letting all that stuff out sucks. Mm-hmm. It is lot fun. It’s terrifying. It’s a lot of work. It’s exhausting, but going very, very [00:36:00] slow helps you build confidence so you feel more in yourself. You can handle it. Reminding yourself that to heal, I gotta let this out. The more you let it out, the better it is. You are never going to feel emotion that you aren’t carrying. So if there’s emotion there, let it out. Mm-hmm. Every time you do that, it gets a little bit easier and you feel a bit better. Right? Mm-hmm. We have a good cry. We always feel a bit of a sense of relief the next day. Continuing to do that. They work hand in hand. So as you practice, you’re learning more, you’re understanding more, but you’re also feeling better, feeling more content, feeling more good enough, important and valued, feeling more pride. So they feed off of each other and you can continue to move forward. But they’re definitely, I know for my clients, every single client, there are days where they think I don’t wanna do this. Like, what’s the point? You said I was gonna get better? I feel worse than I did before. Because you’re in it, right? Part of moving and getting healthy [00:37:00] is you may have a bit of an idea of what you wanna work towards, but you haven’t figured out how to get there yet. That is frustrating, but you have to keep practicing and practicing and practicing hope. You know, I think hope is okay for a period of time, but we need much more than hope. You know, if I’m going hiking in the Outback and I say to my guide. Do you know where we’re going? And he says, I hope so. I’m probably not going with them. Right. And so hope can can get us over that lip a little bit, but we need to have a plan. We need to have practice behaviors so we know what we’re doing, not just hoping. Gissele : Mm-hmm. And you know, as you were talking, I was thinking People who have done hard things, the people that overcame, you know, the Holocaust, they saw themselves beyond that experience. They might have died, but they needed to see themselves beyond that experience. So there is an element of belief that you can do it. There is that element [00:38:00] of desire to say, I don’t know how, I don’t know when, when I’m gonna get through this, this hurdle. What do you think the role of affirmations are in helping people gain more confidence and feel more good enough? Sabrina: You know what, again, it can be a surface level thing, right? I can tell myself a thousand times that I am good enough, but if I don’t believe it, it’s not going to do any good. So what we talk about with all those kind of. Tools is, it really is just a tool. It’s up to you how much you wanna apply it. So I can have an affirmation that I say, I, you know, I stick on a sticky note on my bathroom and I see it every day. But we all know after about five days, we don’t even really notice it there anymore. It’s not, gonna be of benefit, but if I’m using that affirmation to remind myself, to reframe my thinking, to challenge myself, to see things differently. Then they can have an impact. So it’s not so much about the tool, it’s about how [00:39:00] am I using it? Am I using it to make changes to believe in myself or am I using it to actually beat myself up? Gissele : Yeah. Yeah. Are there any other tools that you think that are helpful in helping people start on their journey? Sabrina: I think there’s two really important pieces. First one is breathing. So when we’re going into that fight, flight, freeze response, and we’ve got adrenaline being dumped into our body, we also have a chemical called cortisol being dumped into our brain. Cortisol stops us from thinking we can’t use logic and reason, understand consequences feel our emotions. It has a massive impact in our brain. Breathing stops that fight, flight, freeze response from happening. So if I’m in danger, we often hold our breath shallow breathing. When I take nice deep breaths, my brain goes. Oh, we’re not in danger. And so it is a really effective tool in helping to stop and [00:40:00] break that fight, flight, freeze response from happening. What I usually say to my clients is don’t wait until your anxiety is a 10 outta 10 to breathe. You definitely need to Breathe outta 10, outta 10, but start breathing regularly throughout the day. It just brings everything back down. So breathing is a really, really effective coping strategy for sure. But the other one is make a plan. Remember, anxiety is a lack of confidence. Well, if I have a plan of how I’m gonna handle something, I’m going to feel way more confident in handling it. So a lot of times we have those worry thoughts, those what if scenarios, we just let them repeat over and over and over and over and over in our head. We say, take that thought, write it down on a piece of paper and figure out what do I do if this happens? Once we have a plan, we realize, oh, I could handle it. That anxious thought goes away. If it’s still there a little bit, it’s gonna be much less. But then you [00:41:00] just remind myself, no, I just do A, B, and C, and I would handle it. Even taking that to worst case scenario. Right. So, you know, let’s say I’m working with a student who is worried about failing a test. Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Sabrina: So we can make a plan about what do you do to not fail the test. But that’s not the worry thought. The worry thought is what if I fail? So what if, if you fail your test, what do you do? You talk to the teacher, you know, you see if you can rewrite, you study more for the next ones. You do really well on your presentations so that you are bringing your markup, okay, so I can handle failing this test. Worst case scenario, what if I fail the whole course? So what do you do? You retake it. Maybe you drop out and you start working. Even the worst case scenario we could handle. So once we start making a plan, we can really help believe in ourselves more that we would handle it. [00:42:00] Might not be fun, might not be great. I probably won’t even be very graceful in doing it, but it will happen. We are way more resilient than we give ourselves credit for. You. Think about all the experiences you’ve been through in your life. You’ve survived them ’cause you’re here now. Mm-hmm. We need to stop and look at that. I’ve handled all these things. Can I handle failing a test? Yep. Probably. Mm-hmm. Won’t be fun. Mm-hmm. It’s gonna create emotion that I don’t wanna feel, but yeah, I can handle it. Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Sabrina: So I think those are two really important strategies. Breathing and make plans. Mm-hmm. Gissele : Is there a level of detachment that should happen when you create a plan? during the time. When I was challenged the most creating that plan might’ve introduced a lot of resistance in me if it didn’t come through the way that I had planned. And so I think that would’ve generated a little bit more fear in me. Is there a level of detachment or maybe different options that would’ve helped and [00:43:00] the other thing that would probably have arisen in me was well, I’m feeding that experience. I’m saying that that’s gonna happen. Sabrina: Yeah. Right. Well, well, and the problem is, you probably are already thinking that’s gonna happen a thousand times in your head. Yeah. So let’s just acknowledge it and say, okay, what do, if it happens? Mm-hmm. With a lot of our anxious thoughts, they never even really happen. So we don’t even have to put the plan into place. But in knowing we have a plan builds confidence, which means those anxious thoughts are going to go down. You know, when we first start doing it, well, I think even after we’ve been doing it for a really long time. We can have a plan and the chances that it’s gonna go exactly the way our plan is, is laid out not very high. That’s just not the way life works. Mm-hmm. So the first few ones can be, frustrating, but after you’ve made plan 10, 15, 20 times, you start realizing, okay, I can adapt that piece and I can challenge that piece. And I never even thought about that, but I figured out how to handle it because it’s not even really about the plan. It’s about [00:44:00] building confidence, helping me realize I got this, I can handle it, I can figure it out. And so over time, that happens. But the, the plan is often more thought based than emotion based. It doesn’t have to be, but often it is. It’s more, you know, I’m thinking through more than I am really feeling through. Gissele : Hmm. I was just thinking of a quote that I had heard about how people with good mental health are people that are the most flexible. Flexible and flowing who are willing to go with life. It’s not that life doesn’t give you adversity or things don’t happen. it’s the willingness to be flexible and the ability to bend. And it really is the people that are the most in resistance and struggle the most, or the people that are want to control and are not. Able to adjust, Sabrina: right? More. My core belief is good enough. The more confident I’m gonna be. So the more, no matter what comes up, I got it. I’ll figure it out. Core belief, not [00:45:00] good enough. More insecurity. I don’t trust in myself that I can handle any of these things, so it’s gotta go exactly like plan. Mm-hmm. And so it’s, it’s building that we, you know, we don’t want that plan to be like a routine where it has to go A, B, C, D. It’s more about how do I handle these kind of scenarios and building that confidence rather than creating more rigid plans. For sure. Gissele : Yeah. And that flexible and flowing can make you feel like. Right. Because when you stop controlling things in your life, there’s an openness, there’s a sense of, oh, I don’t have to do all of that. I don’t have to control life anymore. I can just allow it. And that doesn’t mean that things aren’t gonna happen. You know, there’s a difference between pain and suffering, right? Everybody experiences pain, whether we choose to. Suffer is optional. Like when I think about my experiences, many times I [00:46:00] experienced pain, but I was the one who was causing myself suffering by repeating those same thoughts and constricting and all of that stuff. But it’s hard for us to acknowledge that we are doing that to ourselves. Right? Right. Sabrina: It’s that responsibility piece. I think same with the word stress, right? People often talk about how everything is so stressful. You create your own stress. If you go into it thinking, I can’t handle this, yeah, you’re gonna be stressed out. But if you go in feeling confident, knowing that no matter what comes, you’ll figure it out and you will handle it. It’s not as stressful. there are varying things for sure, something really significant happen. It may create more stress than other things, but if we’re really stressed all the time, you are creating your own stress by how you are thinking about how you’re gonna handle the event. Not the event itself. Gissele : Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. So I wanted to give you an opportunity to share where can people find you? Where can they work [00:47:00] with you? Tell us a little bit more about your book. Sabrina: Sure. So my book is not good enough. Understanding Your Core Belief and Anxiety. It’s available on Amazon’s. It is a handbook. So you’re reading about core belief and in general, but then you do an activity where you’re applying that information to your own personal experiences. So it’s a, a book about self-reflection, learning more, understanding more about your core belief, and then how is it, you know, showing up in your life. And then what do you do? What are some things you can do to challenge yourself? To start to feel more and more good enough, important and valued. I am also on on most social media. I am Sabrina Trobak on YouTube and on LinkedIn. I am NGE. So not good enough. Understand. NGE_Trobak on Instagram and NGE_CoreBelief on TikTok. And then I’m on Facebook as well in [00:48:00] Trobak holistic counseling. Mm-hmm. Wonderful I have a website, http://www.trobakholistic.org. On my website is a page to my book. It’s got a blog section, which is just short, two to four minute reads about everything. Also got a link, a page that links all of the podcast interviews that I’ve done as well. Gissele : Hmm. Beautiful. So one final question. I ask this of all my guests. What is your definition of love? Sabrina: I, I would say my definition of love is. Probably just one word. Acceptance. Mm-hmm. Acceptance of self and others. And, and sometimes that means giving love and sometimes that means moving on. Gissele : Hmm. I like that. I like that. Even acceptance of situations. Right. If you have the confidence to believe that you can overcome anything, it’s just acceptance. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Sabrina, for being on the show and for sharing your wisdom with [00:49:00] us, and thank you to those who tuned into love and compassion with Gissele Stay tuned for another episode.

TRANSCRIPT Gissele : [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our world. Don’t forget to like and subscribe for more amazing content. Today we’re talking to Krysti Beckett, who’s a passionate plus size personal trainer and pelvic fitness specialist. Her goal is to get moms to move with confidence and build strength at any size without worrying about their size or weight. Krysti resides in Burford, Ontario with her husband, three children and beloved dog Ozzy. Please join me in welcoming Krysti Hi Krysti. Krysti Beckett: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. Gissele : No, thank you for being with us. I wanted to ask you if you could tell the audience how you got started in this business that you’re in. Krysti Beckett: Yeah, I mean, as a young person, fitness was not [00:01:00] really on my radar. I’ve been a plus size my whole life, but I actually was a nanny in my early twenties and one of the women I was a nanny for had a fitness business and she said, you know, you’d be really good at this. So I kind of started doing admin work and then I got certified as an instructor and really like, found movement that I liked. ’cause I think for a lot of women I grew up. Just doing fitness, like you exercise to be skinny. And it had to be hard and it had to be uncomfortable. But I kind of fell in love with it, trying different things and decided that that was the career path I would take. So I became a personal trainer and I kind of did follow the grain for a long time with the fitness industry and selling weight loss and teaching people how to basically always be on the journey to lose weight And then I kind of understood and, and saw some research that showed that [00:02:00] most diets are actually designed to fail. That’s how we make our money. And started to learn more about. The benefits of strength training for longevity to relieve pain. the benefits for your bones, all sorts of things that have nothing to do with the scale whatsoever. And through that, also becoming a mother at the, around the same time learning about pelvic health. So as a pelvic fitness specialist, I’m working with women to overcome things like pain, leaking, painful sex something called prolapse, where your pelvic floor, if it’s not supportive enough, the organs can actually descend from your body. And it’s actually fairly common, but it’s, it’s something we just don’t talk about enough. Gissele : Mm mm I love everything you just said. Krysti Beckett: Thanks. Gissele : The first thing is really that, you know, reflecting on as a society we’re very plus size phobic, right? Like we, we think that skinny is the place to [00:03:00] be in. When you think about. You know how much we try to get everyone to fit in a box, right? Even like plastic surgery, everything. Everybody has the same nose, everybody has the same face, everybody has to have the same body, and that is such a disservice. What sort of messaging did you see around the fitness industry about people embracing their own sort of like body shape? Krysti Beckett: So unfortunately, I think the industry as a whole doesn’t, if you were to Google Fitness, if you were to Google Gym, you’ll find young, white, thin bodies. that’s the general representation that comes to the fitness industry. But it’s interesting because first of all, we white people, I mean, I’m a white person. We are the global minority. It’s people of color, the global majority, and yet this [00:04:00] industry has only reflected that in, you know, visually especially it’s become an aesthetic rather than about health. There are certainly other professionals like myself that serve as health at any size or fitness at any size, but there’s comparatively very few of us. Gissele : Hmm. You just got to triggering in my head, when I think about fitness and I think about what you were just talking about, I envision sort of the Lululemon. Yes. Even like yoga has sort of been sort of taking over. ’cause yo yoga’s supposed to be a spiritual practice as well as a physical one. Krysti Beckett: Mm-hmm. Gissele : Right? But then you, and then I’m not trying to judge the Lululemon wearing. Yoga people. It’s just that, you know, I sort of envisioning how everyone’s trying to fit that mold. And if you don’t have workout gear, that makes you look acceptable. I was one of [00:05:00] those, I never had workout gear that would be presentable, right? I half the time didn’t remember to shave my legs And so, yeah, the messaging that people are receiving is that they’re not good enough, right? Krysti Beckett: A hundred, a hundred percent. And to tie in into what you just mentioned a lot of traditional practices that belong to other cultures. Like yoga have been whitewashed. And so there’s this, I can’t even think of the comedian’s name, but she is East Indian and she has this hilarious bit where she talks about like, if you are rushing to yoga, you are doing it wrong. The whole purpose of yoga is to slow down and restore yourself, and it’s something people do in their pajamas. But in our western culture, it’s people hustling to get to class and they’re taking their fancy yoga mat and they have to, like you said, the Lululemon [00:06:00] clothes. And it’s you know, on, on Instagram, especially when we see these influencers, they’re very thin. They’re wearing all the fancy gear and, and doing the very extreme poses, handstands and floating and, it’s incredible the things we can do with our bodies, but it’s also an, that’s an ableist perspective. Most of the population cannot move their body that way, could they? With training and display, I mean, it’s very possible, but for most people, that’s not what their bodies do, and that’s not necessarily what fitness looks like for them. Gissele : Yeah. And I was just contemplating on the fact that there have been now yoga studios that do drinking and yoga, right? Krysti Beckett: Oh yeah. Gissele : And so they do drinking and yoga, and then they do like the puppy and that, that’s all great. Like if that’s what you wanna do. But like you said, like, are we abiding by the true essence of [00:07:00] the practice? Right? Right. And are we creating environments that are. Open to different body shapes, different sizes, and let me know your thoughts about this, because I always thought these sorts of things are just a mirror of us, how we reject ourselves, right? plastic surgery these are billions of dollars. So these are people that are realizing or thinking that they’re not enough, that they need to look a certain way. the diet industry is billions of dollars. Ozempic, I’m interested in all your thoughts. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. I, so to start off, culturally, we are people that expect instant everything. I mean, we no longer wonder or search for information in our brain. Like, what was that actor’s name again? Or what was that thing that happened last week in the news? We instantly can pull up our phones and we can get the [00:08:00] answer in seconds. And so when it comes to something like our bodies, everything takes time, everything. And so to expect that you can change your body, particularly in appearance instantaneously, is not realistic. And. Unfortunately, I think a lot of pressure is put on us. One of the ways that the diet indu industry really messes with our heads is before and after pictures. And though the intention maybe, and I did, I used them for a time as a personal trainer. The, the intention was to show if you put in the work, you will get results. But that’s not what it ends up doing. What it ends up doing is telling our brains, here’s a body ideal. Here’s what you have. It’s not enough, it’s not worthy. Here’s what you can [00:09:00] have that is worthy. You will be a better person. We will respect you more. We will see you as far more valuable if you have a smaller, more chiseled body. And with Ozempic it’s such a weird time for us. In the states, especially celebrities can market pharmaceuticals. So we have Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: These beautiful people Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Who may or may not be using the drug being paid to market it. So using their influence in order to sell it. And I’ve had three clients that were on ozempic, two of them for diabetes but all three with the goal of weight loss. All three of them women in their fifties and no, maybe sixties have come off it because even though they did say it did help them reduce their eating, they found that they were always overeating and they were always thinking about food. They all reported low [00:10:00] energy and muscle loss. And no one is talking about this because especially after 50 perimenopause, when your estrogen drops, it is harder to keep your muscle, let alone, to grow it, to make more muscle. Mm-hmm. With ozempic. You are making it astronomically harder because it’s actually removing some of that muscle. And above and and above that there are other things that people are reporting. It’s hard, it’s hard to really know what the, the landscape is going to look like. Yeah. Over the next decade or two because it is so popular and seeing the effects. But every single medication out there, and I’m not knocking medication. I have used medication, you know that is a discussion between you and your doctor. But that discussion should always, always include the risks. And there are always risks to medication. You have to make that decision with your doctor. Is the risk worth it? Are [00:11:00] you going to get significant benefits to improve your health and your life? Right? But going on Ozempic because you saw a celebrity selling it because you think it’s going to solve all your problems with weight loss. I don’t know. I don’t know that it is. Gissele : Yeah. And I think one of the things that you just mentioned, which triggered in my head, it’s one thing to take a pill to help yourself, like as a stepping stone, But if it’s impacting your ability to create healthy habits, that you can continue beyond that pill, I think that’s where I start to wonder whether or not it’s really helping. Right? So if you take for example, something that can help you, manage your pain so you can start walking and out there and getting more physically fit, Krysti Beckett: right? Gissele : That makes sense, right? You wanna manage the, the symptom in the moment. But if it’s impacting your ability in the long term, and you and I have chatted before about Blue Zones [00:12:00] and about the importance of movement, right? And so if that’s preventing you from moving and creating those long-term habits, it’s would be concerning to me that that’s an option. Krysti Beckett: I think even, and speaking from experience with you know, having seasons of debilitating mental health, there were periods of time where I did need medication to function. I did need medication to get out of bed to be able to think clearly without I go back to the word debilitating, right? There are seasons of our lives where we need this, and of course there are, you know, lifelong chronic struggles where people are dependent on medication, and I’m so grateful that we live in a time where so much is available, but again, we have to have those discussions with knowledgeable professionals to know what we’re getting into because it can, it can lead [00:13:00] to alternatives that maybe we weren’t anticipating or thinking about. Gissele : Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna clarify for my listeners, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to change, right? Like, so there’s nothing wrong with, you know, wanting to be thin or wanting to be plus size or wanting to be fitter. Mm-hmm. It’s the way that it is marketed, the way that the messaging is you are not enough. Krysti Beckett: Mm-hmm. If Gissele : you are not thin, you’re not enough. If you don’t look a certain way. I think that’s probably the most damaging thing, that we accept those messages and then change ourselves because it is okay to love and accept yourself and choose to change. Krysti Beckett: Absolutely. Gissele : Right. And say, you know what, because I, I dye my hair, I just like my hair darker right now. It doesn’t mean I, I don’t like my gray hair. And sometimes I grow up my roots quite a bit. I’m not rejecting myself either way. I [00:14:00] just have a preference, but it’s not gonna make or break me if I don’t go a month or two months without dying my hair. what has been your experience around the women that you have supported about their worthiness, around weight issues? Krysti Beckett: Yeah, it’s interesting ’cause what you just said about being content with who you are, but also wanting something different is, is not a bad thing. And I a hundred percent agree with you. It is a very uncomfortable conversation to have with yourself, to sit with the reasons why you’re doing something when it comes to your body. When you really start to think about, am I doing this because I want it? Or am I doing this because someone said something? Am I doing this because my mom commented on what’s on my plate at Thanksgiving? Am I doing this? Because every time I look at my pre-pregnancy jeans, I cry, am I [00:15:00] doing this because I saw another ad on my phone that’s telling me that I can lose 20 pounds in just six weeks? And why can’t I just do this on my own already? the conversations I have with my clients are truly, is it what you want or do you need to set boundaries with your mom? Is it what you want? Or do you need to get rid of those jeans and just spend the money and buy jeans That feel good? Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Is it what you want or do you need to tell that ad on your social media? No more? Like, what is that function where you’re Gissele : like, I don’t Krysti Beckett: wanna Gissele : see this kind of ad anymore. Krysti Beckett: there are things that we can do. We do have choices. And understanding that you can take that power back. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: You can. You can. And it’s, again, it’s uncomfortable, which I think is why it stops us. I’m totally guilty of not being assertive to somebody [00:16:00] in the moment and saying, I don’t like what you’re saying to me. Sometimes I go back, sometimes I let it fester. Like I’m gonna be totally honest, right? Gissele : Like, yeah, yeah, we do that. Yeah, Krysti Beckett: we, we do that. And that’s, Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Some of it’s human nature. Some of it’s how we were raised, some of it is cultural. Women are not to be loud. If we are if we are assertive, like we are called a bitch, like it’s Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Right? Like there are just things that culturally are not acceptable or that we’ve just learned to act a certain way. And so sometimes with my clients, it’s before they gain the confidence to do something different, they have to sit with that discomfort and give themselves permission to do whatever the heck they want and what’s actually going to benefit them. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Bravo I think figuring out like whose voice are we listening to, and is [00:17:00] it our true desire from our heart or is it someone else’s criticism of us that we’re listening to and maybe some people were raised with parents that, taught them those self-regulation skills. I certainly was not, my parents really didn’t know how to emotionally regulate themselves, and so I was not taught how to sit with those uncomfortable feelings. for you, what do you find helps you sit longer in that conversation or dialogue without pushing the eject button? Krysti Beckett: Ooh, I find that journaling is helpful because otherwise I ruminate. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: And one of my. Funny enough, one of the, the pelvic physios that I’ve had and her assistant were like, absolutely life changing because they came at pelvic health and physiotherapy from a perspective of rest. Gissele : Mm. Krysti Beckett: So it wasn’t about what can you do to fix this? It was about [00:18:00] slowing down and breathing and releasing tension before you went to the exercises. And Al Pat is her name and she taught me the phrase, rest is productive. And so in our sessions sometimes she would walk me through a meditation and then she’d say, whatever came up for you right now, let’s journal it. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: What came up for you in that time? Where did your brain wander? And she presented me with this concept that I didn’t realize how often I do it, but she called it time traveling. So like chopping vegetables, I’ll be standing at the counter chopping vegetables and I’ll start to think about that thing I said to that person in the grocery store that I was really embarrassed about. Or I’ll start worrying about what my kid is going to do at that play date with that other kid that he’s been fighting. You know what I mean? Like, we start to either worry about things that have happened that we can’t change or worry about things that have [00:19:00] not even happened yet, or maybe they won’t ever happen. We, we are really good at this. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: And so journaling and just bringing ourselves back to the present and telling ourselves, Nope, I’m not thinking about that right now. No, I don’t need to think about that right now. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for that. It’s interesting ’cause one of the things I’ve learned about myself is that. What I find when I do too much past, it kind of leads me to feel more depressed and too much future can cause anxiety. So really being in the present moment is important. And I love what you said about those monotonous behaviors because I now use my monotonous behaviors to envision my ideal life. Krysti Beckett: Ooh, Gissele : I love that. So if I’m doing something, the socks, either I’m listening to someone that is inspiring, or I am daydreaming I’m going to use that time to think about what I wanna create, to think about the things that are exciting me, because I used to do the same thing. It was like that constant [00:20:00] back and forth past future, past, future, past, future, in my mind was not kind to me, right? Like it would go to the most negative thing. So I’m like, you know what? I’m wasting my energy. I’m wasting my time. That time could be better spent planting the seeds that I want to create. Right. Krysti Beckett: Yeah, absolutely. Gissele : Yeah. I wanted to switch gears a little bit and talk about pelvic health. Krysti Beckett: Hmm. Gissele : Because, and that’s obviously related to movement because like you said, it’s something that’s not really talked about in women unless you live in like Denmark or something, or one of those Scandinavian countries where they actually apparently invest in women’s pelvic health. Why do you think we don’t talk about it? Why is it so taboo? Krysti Beckett: Oh gosh. Okay. So yes, you are right in some European countries, including France. Oh, of Gissele : France. That’s the one. Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. Krysti Beckett: So France is like, they are like the topnotch country, in my opinion, when it comes to pelvic health. Mm, Gissele : [00:21:00] mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Women postpartum are given 12 weeks of pelvic physio. Women in France do not pee their pants. They do not deal with incontinence. It is part of their healthcare system. And here in Canada and the US physical therapy is generally not part of our healthcare. It occasionally is part of a surgical rehab. Although major abdominal surgery, like C-sections, hysterectomies, my ectomies, there is no rehabilitation investment whatsoever from our healthcare system, which is mind blowing, considering how small, how common it’s, Gissele : yep. Krysti Beckett: But when it comes to our healthcare system and, pelvic health, I think we don’t talk about it, number one, because it’s quite honestly, it affects women The most. Men have pelvises. They can have pelvic dysfunction, they can leak, yeah, they can [00:22:00] have pain during sex, things like that. But generally speaking, it’s not as big of a male issue. It is a female health issue. And when it comes to all the research that we have, women get a smidgen, they get like a little bit. And even the stuff that we do have, it’s geared towards, again, white women. And a lot of the standards that we have are, are based on the general population and not even for women. So for example menopause. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Had men included in the studies up until the nineties. Gissele : Wow. Krysti Beckett: So only the research. Yes. The research that we have for menopause. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Only in the last 30 years was it exclusively women. Gissele : Wow. talk about not generalizing to your target population. Krysti Beckett: When you think you, you think about the struggles that women have in health [00:23:00] and we’ve been taught not to complain and the common complaints are incontinence, so leaking pee when you don’t want to. So jumping, running, sneezing, laughing, coughing or painful sex, which is talked about even less. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: And then prolapse I mentioned, or just pain in general in the pelvic area. They’ve become very common jokes in our culture. Like now that you’ve had a baby, you’re gonna have to wear Depends. Gissele : I was just gonna say that. How, how have we come to just accept that now there’s a diaper aisle for people? Krysti Beckett: Yeah. Gissele : Like, have you seen those commercials that are just basically like, here’s a diaper. Oh, this one feels comfortable. Like, why are we accepting that Krysti Beckett: and they market them sexy. Why are we Gissele : accepting that? Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: They market them as sexy, like the, the, it’s like invisible panty lines, but it’s like invisible diapers. Like you can’t tell that you’re wearing it underneath [00:24:00] Gissele : diaper. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s really interesting and I think the quick answer is that anything that can be capitalized is. Like truly, Gissele : ah, that’s, Krysti Beckett: yeah. Gissele : We’re accepting it, like you said. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. Gissele : We are giving it power. We are choosing to just use that instead of saying, no, I’m gonna heal this. Right. Yeah. The only advice I got post having two babies that like to some real movement down there and it, it was basically just do like as many Kegels as you can during the day. And I gotta be honest, that’s so freaking uncomfortable. I would never do them. I would never, ever do them. Like I’m telling you, it’s, it was until I started having some issues and then I’m like trying to kele myself to death. Right. And there are some tools out there that you can use, right? There’s the, there’s like a thing that you can like. [00:25:00] Exercise, right? There’s like that. Oh Krysti Beckett: yeah, yeah, Gissele : yeah. Krysti Beckett: So there’s, there’s lots of things out there, whether or not they’re beneficial, mm-hmm. To everyone’s situation. Really, really depends. so Kegels, for anyone that’s listening or watching and doesn’t know what that is, but that is the term for the pelvic contraction of the muscle. So the tightening, and you have several muscles in there. Think of them as like, think of your pelvis. Your pelvis is actually two bones that joins at. Your spine think of that as like a basket. And the lining of the basket is a whole set of muscles and they have many functions. But they do hold in your urine and your feces and they do provide sexual function and pleasure. They hold up your organs, they actually contribute to blood flow in your body to help return blood flow back to your heart. So they, they do have a lot of functions and just like any other muscle. Every [00:26:00] muscle that functions in your body needs to be able to lengthen and contract. So when you’re feeding yourself cereal, when you reach for the spoon, you’re lengthening. And when you’re pulling the spoon towards your face, you’re contracting. Okay? When you do a bicep curl, you lower the weight. That’s a lengthen. When you bring it towards you, that’s contracting. You’re making the muscles shorter. So when we do Kegels, when we tighten them, that’s making the muscles short and strong. What happens to a lot of women and a lot, a lot of women, whether they’re doing Kegels or not, we tend to have an imbalanced pelvic floor. We tend to be very tight on one side and not tight enough in another, and that’s what causes the dysfunction. So dysfunction is anything that is not working properly. So to tell someone to just do Kegels, well, if you’re already too tight and you add more strengthening. It’s going to not help, it might [00:27:00] even make the problem worse. So in that case, that person might need to do some relaxation to release the muscles. And I don’t know about you, but having children is not relaxing most of the time. So for most women who have had children and over 85% of women will become mothers. Mm-hmm. They will have pregnancies and births. They need to manage their pelvic floor rather than worrying about being too tight or tight enough or pleasing their partner with their pelvic floor, which is another really awful message in our culture that pleasure is only for the man. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Sex should not hurt like ever. Gissele : No. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I’m glad you said that. I just wanted to go back to what you had said that your mentor had said about relaxing before doing the Kegels. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. Gissele : Can you talk a little bit about that? Krysti Beckett: Sure. So, a common thing that we do when we are stressed is we tense [00:28:00] muscles. Mm-hmm. We might not be conscious of how we do it, I’ll talk about three of the most common ones that affect your pelvic floor. One of them, which you can kind of think might directly relate is you actually clench your butt. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: So your glute muscles are not part of the pelvic floor, but every single muscle in the body does not work on its own. Every single muscle works with other systems, with other muscles. So there, there groups and there are pairs. And so your glutes, your butt muscles support your pelvic floor. Well, by clenching the butt we cause an imbalance. So that’s one area of tension. Another area of tension. Gissele : Sorry to interrupt you, but if, if somebody has constipation, that could also be indicative of Krysti Beckett: Oh yeah. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: Okay. Constipation is a pelvic floor killer too. ’cause it causes a lot of pressure and strain on the pelvic floor. Gissele : Mm. Krysti Beckett: Yeah, there’s a lot. And dehydration contributes to that as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah, [00:29:00] that’s another one. Another area of tension is a lot of us like to clench our jaws. Gissele : Mm. Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: And there is fascia. Fascia is like like a netting, like a saran wrap that kind of covers our muscles that intertwine through our whole body. It’s a really amazing thing in our body. Mm-hmm. When we clench our jaw, that fascia runs from our jaw. There is fascia that runs from our jaw down our spine directly to our pelvic floor. And so they together. Gissele : Oh, Krysti Beckett: tighten. Another one is breath holding. So every time you breathe in your diaphragm, which is your breathing muscle under your lungs, it actually works like a sub pump with your pelvic floor. And when we hold our breath, whether that’s just thinking and ruminating, or maybe it’s every time we lift the laundry basket or, or lift our toddler or whatever, if we hold our breath, we create pressure in that canister. And by not releasing the air, by not breathing [00:30:00] through activities, by not breathing through our stress, we are creating tension. And again, that pressure can lead to other issues as well. So honestly, the, the best thing we can do is rest. To relieve tension, to breathe. And I think it’s such a, it’s become such a cliche thing. Oh, just breathe. Oh, just relax. And if somebody tells you that when you’re stressed out, we just get more mad. It’s not helpful. Fair enough. But, but truly, if we allowed ourselves to slow down, to breathe to rest, to actually believe that rest is productive mm-hmm. It would help us regulate our nervous systems. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: It would help us relax these tight muscles. It would allow us to actually be present, be in the moment, and [00:31:00] enjoy what’s going on, rather than always worrying about what’s next and worrying about how to fix something. Because sometimes the things that we need to fix start with stopping and slowing down. Gissele : Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. I always thought there was a connection with, especially with like incontinence, that there might be an association with a fear or, or Right. Because think about kids when they’re young. Like if they have fears, they usually will pee the bed or they have nightmares, right? So like is there an emotional component to the pelvic? Krysti Beckett: So the, the kids part. So from a physiological standpoint, it’s incredibly common. More so in boys. Mm-hmm. Up to 2% of boys with what? The bed until 14 years old. And the highest contributor to that is actually constipation. Oh, so poor diet or you mentioned fears and I have [00:32:00] heard people say, well, it’s ’cause it’s strict parenting. But like, I think you kind of have to see, you have to know kind of your research before making. Gissele : Yeah, of course. Those, Krysti Beckett: those things. But from a physiological standpoint, Or they might be afraid of what might happen in the bathroom. And these are real fears. I mean, I was just talking with my clients in a class recently about how. Do you remember in middle school, like hiding the pad in your pocket and then when you got to the bathroom, you waited till the bathroom was completely empty to open the wrapper. Like you, we couldn’t mm-hmm. Have anyone know that we were menstruating. We like, it was just so, it embarrassing. So we’ve created kind of these conversations as young people. And then to add to that, I think that a lot of people generally have a, distrust and a shame when it comes to their pelvises, when it comes [00:33:00] to their genitals, because we over sexualize bodies. Gissele : Mm. Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: And so it no longer becomes, you know even the simple concept of saying the words penis and vagina, these are not dirty words, these are anatomy. Gissele : Yeah. But we didn’t even call it that before. Krysti Beckett: No. Gissele : Right. Like Coie and Chacha and all these other words. Yeah. We have, I think now our kids are, yeah. Before, like during my time, people didn’t really talk about it. And I love what you just said about it’s, it’s so true. This is part of our anatomy, but we have shamed ourselves. I think this is why we have so much shame and guilt in, in the antidote to that is to have compassion for ourselves and to be kinder to ourselves when it comes to that discomfort that comes from having these conversations, which is why I love that we’re having it, we’re talking about, you know, pelvises and the importance of that health and, but you are right, like we are so used to [00:34:00] fighting these aspects of ourselves that we don’t talk about it and then we suffer in silence. Like, how many of us are suffering in silence, not knowing anything about pelvic health or not anything about the things that women are going through, right? Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: I think so many of us were taught messages, you know, like, you know, starting from a young age, you have private parts, you don’t show anyone else. Well, for some of us that led to hiding in change rooms. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: No one’s allowed to see this and you’re not allowed, like, don’t look. Mm-hmm. And then going into sexual relationships and not understanding that painful sex is not normal. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: Or understanding that like. Self, like self lubrication, like your body does to an extent, makes some, but if it doesn’t, like using a lubricant [00:35:00] is 100% okay. And encouraged so that you can actually enjoy being intimate on top of that. Self pleasuring is not a bad thing, it’s not a shameful thing. Mm-hmm. You can enjoy that beautiful body you have. And if, if you were raised in a church like I was, guess what God gave you that amazing body. Yes. And he gave you all those amazing functions. And guess what? It’s okay to enjoy what he gave you. Gissele : Yeah. And then you think that if we made like masturbation and all those things. Okay. Like if we, if there was a messaging then, then maybe people might be less likely to experiment with like penetration, maybe leading to less pregnancies. I think it would open up the likelihood that women are more likely to have full expressive orgasms and have those like great experience and probably lead to less risky behavior. I don’t know. What do you think? [00:36:00] Krysti Beckett: I think, I think maybe it’s a bold statement, but I think men would be too afraid of how powerful we would be if we had complete control and enjoyment of our bodies. It’s a bold statement, Gissele : You know, there’s lots of people talking about like, the key to manifesting is using the O method. Have you heard of that? Krysti Beckett: I have not heard Gissele : this. Using an, using an orgasm to manifest your Right. Well, you’re about to orgasm. You think about your manifestation. If you just Krysti Beckett: wanna manifest orgasms, can you start there? Gissele : Exactly. That was brilliant. I gotta take my hat off of that one. In terms of pelvic health, are you seeing sort of a shift in terms of people engaging in more conversations with less shame and guilt over their bodies? Krysti Beckett: I think once women become aware of what is normal and what is common, like leaking is common. But a healthy pelvic floor, [00:37:00] you can control, you can pee when you want to. And you can enjoy sex and live pain free pain is your alarm system, right? So once people kinda hear, oh, I can do something about this. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: I do find that more women are taking those steps to book their assessment with a pelvic physiotherapist to understand how they need to change some habits to feel better. And for some women it’s as simple as drinking more water. And for some women it is a little bit more work like doing the exercises. And of course there are still barriers, physiotherapy, like I said, it’s not covered in our healthcare system. And as a fitness professional, I can’t diagnose your symptoms. I can help you improve your symptoms with my knowledge, but I can’t do an internal exam or anything like that. [00:38:00] So there still are going to be barriers where women will just not have the money to go get an exam. But we do the best with what we can. And I’m really glad to see the conversation shift that women are open to having these discussions, that they’re open to saying, okay, yeah, I did have painful sex, or I am having painful sex. Mm-hmm. And I would, I would like to not like to actually enjoy it again. Gissele : Yeah. Do you find certain ages are more open and receptive to talk about things like pelvic health? Krysti Beckett: Yeah, there’s a lot of women I think in the childbearing ages because you do tend to talk about your symptoms a lot in the pre postpartum period with your healthcare professional. When women start to talk and compare their experiences, that’s happening a lot and I’m seeing it a lot now, [00:39:00] particularly in women over 40 in perimenopause, which is also something that was very taboo. We just kind of had these stories about what women did and how they acted in menopause and you feared them. They were angry women with hot flashes, right? Mm-hmm. But, but now we’re seeing more women come, come forward and talk about their experiences and. I think that’s not only changing our healthcare, but it’s changing our communities as women, because we need that connection. We need to support each other. Hmm. And you know, your body, you’re gonna have it your entire life. Right. We have to learn how, how to manage it. And so having these conversations can not only validate you in your experience, [00:40:00] but it can open up doors to find what can help you through your experience. And even if there isn’t a remedy, then maybe it can at least help you understand that, okay, this, this is normal and I can manage it. Gissele : as you were talking, I was reflecting on something you said. Which really stuck out to me, which is we used to have all this secrecy about our bodies but secrecy is what leads to abuse, right? Like keep it secret, don’t tell anyone. Whereas making it out in the open forming community like you are. Putting people together as a support system, I think goes a long way in helping us lift each other up and support each other through our most challenging circumstances. I think there we’re sort of in a epidemic of loneliness and isolation that people are feeling I have to suffer through this alone in these opportunities of bringing women together in conversation, in discussion, in support, I [00:41:00] think are so amazing and I think something that definitely should be done, especially about, what people consider taboo topics, right? Like pelvic health. Yeah. Krysti Beckett: And when you know you’re right, secrecy can contribute to abuse. Absolutely. But also when you are suffering with something in your body, and even if it involves absolutely no one else, keeping it to yourself, often spirals into shame. And I have had clients who stopped having sex with their partners because it was uncomfortable and they didn’t feel comfortable having that conversation with their partner. So they just stopped. And that created disconnect in their relationship. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Because it wasn’t just about being in the bedroom. Right. Sex and intimacy is not just physical, it’s about the relationship above and beyond that. Mm-hmm. You [00:42:00] know, when. The second leading cause of being put into a senior’s home is incontinence. The first is dementia and Alzheimer’s. Gissele : Really? Wow. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. So I mean, you’re, our health is incredibly intricate, but also so huge. Like it’s intricate in that there’s so many different things going on, so many systems and our bodies really are so amazing how they work for us every single day. But in that same token it is just one part of you. Like we are multifaceted beings and so Gissele : mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Your mental health, your emotional health, your physical health, all of those. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: Like those three categories even have like several subcategories. Your physical health, your pelvic health is not like independent of you. It’s connected. So if you [00:43:00] tend to clench your jaw, ’cause your stress relates to your pelvic health, and then maybe that’s causing your leaking or your pain, and then maybe that leaking your pain is stopping you from going out with the girls on Saturday night. And then that contributes to your mental health too, because you’re not connecting with your friends. So you’ve got like all these steps and they’re all connected because you yourself are a multifaceted being and you need. Not just physical care, but emotional care, mental care. And, and I think that’s another thing that we don’t do very well culturally, or at least I wasn’t raised that way, was to really look at you as a whole person. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And, but that’s how the medical system is, right? Like, again, not to judge it, it has, does very like a number of things really well, which is deal with like sort of acute problems, right? Like you get a cut, you need pain meds. All of those are amazing, grateful to have it right, but it doesn’t do well [00:44:00] with chronic. and it’s all symptom management, right? I’m handling this symptom, but I might give you this pill for this other symptom. And sometimes like multiple pills you’re taking for this symptom and that symptom, it doesn’t treat historically the whole person, at least not the North American model. I know that models in other countries are different, so we’re seen as just body parts. Right. That we’re treating instead of seeing holistically the whole person. Right. What’s going on for you stress wise that might be leading to this particular physical reaction? like people acknowledge that there is the research out there to connects things like stress with heart disease But we are still sort of treated as limbs as part of a body instead of a whole being that has all of these social relationships. Was it you who was talking to me about like the doctors answer? if you’re a, a person who’s plus size, the doctor’s first answer is always lose weight. Krysti Beckett: Oh, yeah, Gissele : yeah, yeah. Okay. Share that story. That’s so [00:45:00] important. Krysti Beckett: Yeah. It’s very common, especially for women that if they go to their doctor with a health concern. And the doctor will usually go through a series of questions, do you do this? Do you do this? And usually if they can’t come up with a quick answer, they’re almost always the answer is just lose weight. And in my experience, I haven’t had my current doctor tell me that. But there was a conversation where I was struggling with low energy and we’re going through the markers. And now I was, I don’t remember how many months or years postpartum I was, but I was inexplicably tired. I was getting enough rest. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: And at the time he’s, he said, well, let’s do some blood work. And when it came back, everything was like, textbook or better than textbook. And he said to me, your triglycerides are better than [00:46:00] textbook. And he’s like, did you forget to tell me about a medication you were on? And I was like did you not hear the part where I weight train and I teach five fitness classes a week? Like I’m incredibly active. It’s not abnormal for someone who’s physically active as me to have load triglycerides like that. They should be, you know? Yeah. But, but no, it was though, though, not a direct accusation, but I did feel as though he was saying that I had lied or failed to share some information. And I have had clients, you know, report things like neck or back pain and inexplicable. So they were told just lose weight. Where, you know, they are strength training, they’re walking, they’re doing whatever, and, mm-hmm. In one case, it was a client. She needed she finally got an MRI, she had degenerative discs. Something that cannot be fixed by dieting. So there’s, [00:47:00] there’s so many things out there, and unfortunately between pharmaceuticals, between the diet industry, which is often supported by pharmaceuticals our, our doctors are often kind of, that’s what they’re trained in. Yeah, Gissele : yeah, yeah. And like you said, as consumers, we should be looking for more holistic approaches in trying to find people that are creating the whole body and supporting the whole body. I love the idea of interprofessional workers together. Like I would want as a woman to have a pelvic health specialist with my gynecologist, with all of these different individuals working together to talk about. The whole me. Krysti Beckett: Mm-hmm. Gissele : Rather than having me go with all these different individuals separately and have to spend that money separately to come together to have, to figure out how to put all these plans together. [00:48:00] I think as a society, I’d hope that we move to having all of these individuals supporting the whole body, and also the need for physiotherapy and all of these other, additional therapies to be supported by our, healthcare. Mm-hmm. Like if we’re truly having inclusive healthcare, all of these options should be available. For individuals. Right. So I do hope that we get there. Krysti Beckett: I would love that too. I mean, if, if you have a good job with benefits, fortunately, you know, my husband’s benefits provide so much for us in that way. I’m able to have a lot of my physiotherapy, massage therapy, osteopathy, naturopathy chiropractor. Like there are lots of things that are covered. But again, that’s because of his work benefits. It’s not covered by our healthcare. Not yet anyways. Gissele : Right. And so if people don’t have work that provides those benefits, then who might you punish? Are you punishing people that are [00:49:00] more vulnerable that don’t have those, those that kind of employment that might be higher paying, better wages? So from that perspective, we have to wonder, ’cause I kind of have this belief that the quality of the government. Is demonstrated by its ability to take care of its most vulnerable citizens. Krysti Beckett: what an incredible place we would be in if, everyone made a living wage. Yeah. Gissele : Yeah. They talked about basic income, but I guess that went the way of the dodo. because the research on basic income. and there’s certain, European countries that do basic income and people that don’t need it actually say, oh, I don’t want it, right? Krysti Beckett: Mm-hmm. Gissele : But they give it to the majority of their citizens. And people have a higher standard of living, more likely to be better educated. So people don’t use that just to sit around. Krysti Beckett: No. Gissele : Right. Like there’s this perception, the research and it was Canadian research [00:50:00] prove that people’s lives improve when they were outta survival and they had more income. And so there, there was a contemplation that it was something that they were considering applying. But then that just kind of quietly went away. At least here in Canada. But who knows? But yeah, it would be fabulous to have, those, those sort of options for different people. There’s also like countries that do away with homelessness by providing people homes, right? Yeah. They give people little tiny homes that they can have space and they’re more likely to then wanna take it to the next step in terms of getting jobs, getting off drugs, and all of those things. So I think when we, when we reach out and help people and see them as a whole being and care about their wellbeing, I think that’s what societies improve and get better about. Krysti Beckett: There’s really no downside to investing in people. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: I mean, I’m so grateful in Canada that [00:51:00] we have a mat leave, which Wow. Seems like, so in my mind, basic because. we’ve had it for so long. Yeah. But then when I take on a client from the states and they tell me that Gissele : Yeah, Krysti Beckett: at the most, at the most they get 12 weeks. Gissele : Yeah. Krysti Beckett: And a lot of it depends on either what state you’re in or what your employer allows. It may or may not be paid. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Krysti Beckett: But wow. Like in one case I was supporting a mom, a c-section after twins, and she was going back at 12 weeks postpartum as a neonatal nurse. So she’s leaving her babies behind to go take care of other babies. Meanwhile, she’s had major abdominal surgery and she’s gonna be on her feet for like, 12 hour [00:52:00] shifts. So she needs her body. And here like. Their system was not supporting her. So I just feel so grateful for where we live and that we, you know, even as a self-employed person, I didn’t get a mat leave for my third birth, mm-hmm. But I still had culturally here, the understanding that I was postpartum, I was stepping back, I was doing things differently and I was well supported during that time. Yeah. You know, by family, by clients. You know, certainly the respect of understanding that that was happening, no expectation for me to rush back into things. Mm-hmm. But like, what a different world we would be in if we, if we set kind of those bare minimums, those standards of taking care of people. Gissele : Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was thinking about the time when I had my first baby and I returned back to work, it was [00:53:00] like. Like you opened up floodgates. I was crying all the time. I was crying at work. This was a year after, like Right. I had been for a whole year with my baby. Right. I can’t even imagine having, giving birth. And then a few weeks later it just like, well, okay, I gotta go. Oh my God. I think I, I think I might’ve quit.So a couple of more questions. I ask all my guests what their definition of unconditional love is. Krysti Beckett: Ah, unconditional love is being able to give when you are at Any season really at your absolute worst, at your absolute best, but being able to still give no matter what kind of resources you have. Gissele : Hmm. Krysti Beckett: [00:54:00] Emotional or other. Gissele : Hmm. Thank you for that. So last question. Where can people work with you? Where can they find you? Tell us about your website, anything you wanna share with the audience? Krysti Beckett: Sure. Yeah. My website is http://www.theconfidentmama.ca and I have a blog and I have free core guides and things like that. You can always message me for a free consult. I love meeting people. I love chatting about health and, and whether it’s working with me or just getting connected to somebody that can help you. I really do love having those conversations. I am on social media and LinkedIn, so if you’re looking for the Confident Mama and yeah, and if you’re in Southwestern Ontario yeah, hit me up. Brant Burford. I’m often in Kitchener and gray Bruce area and Niagara Gissele : Do you support people in both the physical activity part and the pelvic health as well? Krysti Beckett: Yes. So I’m a personal [00:55:00] trainer with pelvic fitness specialty, so whether virtual or in person, I offer coaching and personal training, so I work one-on-one. I also have fitness classes here in Burford. But if, if somebody needs help getting started or doing something differently in their fitness, I certainly can help them with an exercise program. Or if they just need coaching so that they can feel better in their bodies, feel more confident make their health a priority, then I’m your gal. Gissele : Oh, amazing. Thank you so much, Krysti for such an awesome conversation. I’m so, so excited for our listeners to, to listen to this conversation because we’ve been talking about things that have been taboo and haven’t really been talked about. So thank you so much for being on the show, and please join us for another episode of The Love and Compassion Podcast with Gissele. Krysti Beckett: Thanks. Have a good night. Gissele : Bye.

Can compassion be trained? In this inspiring episode of Love and Compassion with Gissele, Dr. Olga Klimecki—neuroscientist and compassion researcher—joins us to explore the science of compassion and what helps people genuinely care for others, even those they find difficult to like.

Discover how play can transform your relationship in this enlightening conversation with Peter Anderson, “The Playful Couple.” In Choosing Play in Relationships: From Conflict to Connection, we explore practical strategies to turn tension into joy, strengthen intimacy, and reconnect with your partner in meaningful ways. Whether you're navigating conflict, seeking more fun in your marriage, or curious about building deeper connection, this episode offers actionable insights and inspiring stories to help you bring playfulness, love, and laughter back into your relationship.

Part 2 of my chat with Britton and Carolee and they share their story of trying different types of school systems from Walford and Montesori to Unschooling to determine the path of greatest soul development for their children. We talk about why schools don't focus on skill development such as love and compassion in this episode.

Listen to PART 1 of this podcast episode with Britton and Carolee as they share their struggles in dealing with infidelity with compassion for themselves and their partners. They share how their childhood and upbringing lead them to having issues within their relationship and how a "BIG" decision changed their entire lives and the lives of their children.

In this powerful episode, I sit down with two courageous mothers from Palestine and Israel, members of the Parent Circle Friends, who share their journeys of grief, reconciliation, and hope. Through their unimaginable loss, they have chosen love over hatred, showing us what it truly takes to build a more united and peaceful world.

Are you struggling at work? Do you wish that workplaces could be more forgiving or more humanizing? Listen to this powerful and moving chat with Dr. Jenn Griggs about ensuring people's dignity, the importance of authenticity, and the power of forgiveness at work.

Listen to this powerful episode with Vivien Kalvaria as we discuss her memoir, My Name is not Rifka. In this chat, we discuss silence, intergenerational trauma, the banality of evil, forgiveness and reconciliation.

Tired of red vs. blue? Meet Scott Grace, the Spiritual Dr. Seuss, as we explore how to heal division with humor, heart, and his new book Beyond Red and Blue. Politics, peace, and poetry—this episode has it all, one rhyme at a time!

In this deeply moving episode, Sonny Von Cleveland shares his extraordinary journey of survival and transformation from enduring childhood sexual abuse and rape in prison to spending 19 months in solitary confinement. But this is not a story about staying broken, it's a story about choosing love over hate. Sonny opens up about the radical act of forgiveness, the power of compassion, and what it truly takes to create a more loving world. We explore healing from trauma, confronting greed and ego, and finding the courage to transform pain into purpose. His message is clear: no matter what we've lived through, we all have the power to love. If you're searching for hope, healing, or a reason to believe in the human spirit again then this episode is for you.

Discover how compassion boosts business performance in this powerful podcast episode with Dr. Bruno Cignacco, author of The Art of Compassionate Business. Learn practical strategies to build trust, improve employee wellbeing, and create a more human-centered workplace culture. Ideal for leaders, entrepreneurs, and HR professionals looking to drive success through heart and purpose.

Discover how to create spaces that support peace, presence, and emotional well-being. In this soulful conversation, interior designer Kim Depole shares how her time with Thich Nhat Hanh and the teachings of mindful living transformed her design philosophy. Learn how to design from the inside out, turning your home or workspace into a sacred, healing environment. Perfect for those interested in mindful interior design, conscious living, and creating intentional, soul-nourishing spaces.

What if animals could speak—and we could truly understand them? In this powerful episode of Love and Compassion with Gissele, world-renowned animal communicator and telepath Penelope Smith shares how she discovered the ability to communicate with animals through telepathy—and how this deep interspecies connection can lead to greater compassion, healing, and mutual understanding.

hat does it take to bring real compassion into the child welfare system? In this heartfelt episode, we talk with Peter Mutabazi—author, advocate, and single Black foster and adoptive father—about his extraordinary journey from surviving life on the streets of Uganda to fostering over 36 children in the U.S. With raw honesty and deep wisdom, Peter shares the joys and challenges of being a foster parent, the unique barriers faced by Black single men in the system, and why love, safety, and belonging must be at the core of how we care for vulnerable children. This is more than a story—it's a call to action to reimagine the child welfare system with compassion at its center.

In today's evolving workplace, emotional intelligence isn't optional—it's essential. In this powerful episode, leadership coach and business strategist Jeff Ma joins us to talk about how love, compassion, and vulnerability are transforming company culture and improving team performance. We explore how to lead with empathy, create a psychologically safe environment, and have honest, difficult conversations at work. You'll learn how forgiveness, trust, and authenticity can increase employee engagement, reduce burnout, and fuel long-term success. Whether you're a CEO, manager, or team member, this conversation offers actionable insights for building a more human, high-performing workplace.

In this powerful episode, Sean Hemeon opens up about growing up Mormon, coming out as gay, battling addiction, and learning to forgive himself. We explore religion, shame, manifesting, and what it really means to live authentically. A must-listen for anyone on a healing journey.

Do you want to know about the connection between love and money? Do you desire to understand what your passions are and how to live authentically? then listen to this conversation with Ghary D. Won around his experiences with homelessness, how a mindset shift helped him overcome that challenge and how his relationship with abundance changed after a conversation he had with money.

We are living in a time of great division. Where rights are being eliminated, and people are struggling more than ever finding common ground. Additionally, people seem to be struggling more internally. They are feeling more burnt out. Many spiritual traditions claim that love is the answer. But how? Listen to my chat with Scott Stabile, on the power of love. We will discuss why choosing love is always the better choice and the connection between self-love and love for others. A must listen if you are interested in understanding how love can help us heal.

Transcript [00:00:00] Gissele: Hello and welcome to the love and compassion podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our worlds. Don't forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content. we're doing an amazing documentary called the courage to love. Focusing on sharing stories of those who have chosen to do the unthinkable, loving and forgiving those who are the most hurtful through their stories, we will find out what the impact of forgiving and caring for our opponents is for those doing the forgiving. And for those who were forgiven, we'll also hear from experts about whether it is in our nature to love and to come together with those with whom we disagree. We'll be doing fundraising in March with lots of amazing perks. If you're interested in the documentary, you want to nominate someone or support us financially, Please look out for the information coming out in March. On today's podcast, we'll be talking about [00:01:00] punishment free parenting. Our guest today is Rebecca Wolf. She is author of the book, The Gift of a Punishment Free Childhood. She is a parenting mentor, educator, and mother. She supports parents through mentoring and workshops and navigating their parenting journeys. Using punishment free practices, however, her most important work was raising her own children without punishment. Her extensive personal experiences, contribute to her ability to guide others on their parenting journeys. Rebecca is a certified parenting educator for the redirecting children's behavior program. and has conducted extensive research on how punishment impacts children's behavior. Rebecca has a Ph. D. from the University of Northern Colorado in education and has been a lifelong teacher and learner. Please join me in welcoming Rebecca. Hi, Rebecca. [00:02:00] Hello. Rebecca: Thank you, Gissele: Giselle. As I was saying to you before, I love your book. Absolutely love it. I wish I had found this book earlier in my parenting experience. Because I feel like my husband and I really had to struggle to learn by making lots of mistakes with our kids. So I wish we had found your book. And so I was strongly encouraging my listeners, especially who are starting out in the parenting journey, or even if they have kids today, because you talk about teens to get it. Can you tell the audience a little bit about how you decided to go punishment free? Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. So, as you shared in my biography, I was trained to work for the Redirecting Children's Behavior Parenting Workshops. And in that work, it, it, There still was punishment included, but it really started to emphasize the idea of redirecting right rather than punishing. Let's [00:03:00] redirect. And so I had kind of this solid foundation. And but what I'll share is that it was really when I started thinking about some of the crises that we're seeing. In the world now. I live in Colorado. And so the Columbine high school shooting that happened back in 1999 was pretty impactful for me. I spent a lot of time thinking about that, thinking about that family, those parents you know, the parents on both sides, the parents of the shooters, the parents of those who lost their lives that day. And there are many, many factors that go into a situation like that. But Rebecca: it was clear that the reason those two boys walked into that high school was to punish their classmates. And so I'm like, why do we think that that is the solution? And if you think about it, it's because that's what most, most children, it's how they are. It's the relationship they have with their [00:04:00] parents. It's their primary relationship is one of love. When I misbehave, I'm punished. And if we can shift that paradigm where making a mistake or even misbehaving is actually just an opportunity to learn rather than to be punished, could we shift that paradigm around punishment?

Transcript [00:00:00] Gissele: Hello and welcome to the love and compassion podcast with Gissele. We believe that love and compassion have the power to heal our lives and our worlds. Don't forget to like, and subscribe for more amazing content. we're doing an amazing documentary called the courage to love. Focusing on sharing stories of those who have chosen to do the unthinkable, loving and forgiving those who are the most hurtful through their stories, we will find out what the impact of forgiving and caring for our opponents is for those doing the forgiving. And for those who were […]

Are you craving true intimacy? do you have difficulties expressing your needs for intimacy, connection, touch and sex? Then tune into this episode of the love and compassion podcast with Gissele. Today, we talk to Luyba Venable who is a sex coach focusing on the needs of men and women for greater connection, unity, communication, and love.

Are you craving true intimacy? do you have difficulties expressing your needs for intimacy, connection, touch and sex? Then tune into this episode of the love and compassion podcast with Gissele. Today, we talk to Luyba Venable who is a sex coach focusing on the needs of men and women for greater connection, unity, communication, and love.

Are you dealing with a recent loss? are you experiencing the possible loss of a loved one? if you are, then this podcast episode is for you. Listen as I chat with Dr. Jan Schwartz, about the three types of intelligence needed to handle the most difficult moments in your life. In this episode, she shares her experiences in helping her dog, address and heal a terminal cancer. Do not miss this exciting episode full of wisdom.

Are you dealing with a recent loss? are you experiencing the possible loss of a loved one? if you are, then this podcast episode is for you. Listen as I chat with Dr. Jan Schwartz, about the three types of intelligence needed to handle the most difficult moments in your life. In this episode, she shares her experiences in helping her dog, address and heal a terminal cancer. Do not miss this exciting episode full of wisdom.

In this episode, I chat with my own sister, Jessica, about her weight loss journey. She lost 100 pounds and shares her wisdom on how to lose weight while honoring yourself. We talk about society's view of weight, about her journey in losing the first 20-30 pounds, and how being radically honest with herself, got her on track to living her best life. Most importantly, we talk about the role of compassion in helping Jessica transform her body.

In this episode, I chat with my own sister, Jessica, about her weight loss journey. She lost 100 pounds and shares her wisdom on how to lose weight while honoring yourself. We talk about society's view of weight, about her journey in losing the first 20-30 pounds, and how being radically honest with herself, got her on track to living her best life. Most importantly, we talk about the role of compassion in helping Jessica transform her body.

In this episode of our podcast, I speak with the incredible Ashley Williams, who was voted top 40 under 40 about the power of mindfulness in helping us return to ourselves.  We talk about how the systems we have created are crumbling, about how mindfulness can positively impact children in the school system, and the about the importance of creating mindful spaces where BIPOC people are welcome!

In this episode of our podcast, I speak with the incredible Ashley Williams, who was voted top 40 under 40 about the power of mindfulness in helping us return to ourselves.  We talk about how the systems we have created are crumbling, about how mindfulness can positively impact children in the school system, and the about the importance of creating mindful spaces where BIPOC people are welcome!

Currently students and teachers seem to be struggling more within the school system. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was something that the school could be doing to support students, teachers and administrators regarding their daily issues? Well there is! Introducing mindfulness into the school system can go a long way to help support student well being, mental health, education and more! Join me as I speak to Ben Painter who is leading the implementation of mindfulness in the school system. We speak about his perspective on what the schools of the future should focus on, as well as why it is important to have a mindfulness Director on site at every school. If you are a teacher, student, parent or administrator, don't miss this episode.

Currently students and teachers seem to be struggling more within the school system. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was something that the school could be doing to support students, teachers and administrators regarding their daily issues? Well there is! Introducing mindfulness into the school system can go a long way to help support student well being, mental health, education and more! Join me as I speak to Ben Painter who is leading the implementation of mindfulness in the school system. We speak about his perspective on what the schools of the future should focus on, as well as why it is important to have a mindfulness Director on site at every school. If you are a teacher, student, parent or administrator, don't miss this episode.

Martin Luther King Jr, said "love is the only power able to transform an enemy into a friend", but how does love do this? How do we embody Jesus' teaching of love thy enemy when other's behaviour is often so hurtful? Listen to my conversation with Christophe Mbonyingabo, Executive Director of CARSA Ministries. CARSA brings together Tutsi and Hutus who have been impacted by Genocide, in order to practice forgiveness and reconciliation. Listen to Christophe's wisdom around how people are conditioned to hate and the innovative approach his organization is using to bring people together in love. Do not miss this episode!

Martin Luther King Jr, said "love is the only power able to transform an enemy into a friend", but how does love do this? How do we embody Jesus' teaching of love thy enemy when other's behaviour is often so hurtful? Listen to my conversation with Christophe Mbonyingabo, Executive Director of CARSA Ministries. CARSA brings together Tutsi and Hutus who have been impacted by Genocide, in order to practice forgiveness and reconciliation. Listen to Christophe's wisdom around how people are conditioned to hate and the innovative approach his organization is using to bring people together in love. Do not miss this episode!

Do you wish there was a way to help young people regulate their challenging feelings and emotions in the school system. Do you desire more compassion in how we manage school based behaviors? Do not miss my enlightening chat with Kara Cosby on the power of compassion in the school system. In this conversation, she talks about her work with the Compassionate School Project (CSP) and how it is helping young people in the US have better personal and professional outcomes.

Do you wish there was a way to help young people regulate their challenging feelings and emotions in the school system. Do you desire more compassion in how we manage school based behaviors? Do not miss my enlightening chat with Kara Cosby on the power of compassion in the school system. In this conversation, she talks about her work with the Compassionate School Project (CSP) and how it is helping young people in the US have better personal and professional outcomes.

Are you a people pleaser? Do you say "yes" when you mean "no"? Do you believe that saying no to someone means they will no longer love you, or that they will leave you? If yes, then this episode is for you! Listen as I chat with Tina O Hoang about people pleasing, what historically led her to people please, and how she talks to herself now to address those tendencies. We also talk about how the other extreme of being confrontational, is not as different to people pleasing as some may think.

Are you a people pleaser? Do you say "yes" when you mean "no"? Do you believe that saying no to someone means they will no longer love you, or that they will leave you? If yes, then this episode is for you! Listen as I chat with Tina O Hoang about people pleasing, what historically led her to people please, and how she talks to herself now to address those tendencies. We also talk about how the other extreme of being confrontational, is not as different to people pleasing as some may think.

Listen to this inspiring episode on how mindfulness can help young people flourish in life and in the school system.  Listen to three incredible men share their 20 year journey of teaching mindfulness in schools and the impact their work has had in helping children become more peaceful, compassionate, loving, healthy and balanced.  Their work has been featured in CNN, Oprah Magazine, Good Morning America and so much more.

Listen to this inspiring episode on how mindfulness can help young people flourish in life and in the school system.  Listen to three incredible men share their 20 year journey of teaching mindfulness in schools and the impact their work has had in helping children become more peaceful, compassionate, loving, healthy and balanced.  Their work has been featured in CNN, Oprah Magazine, Good Morning America and so much more.

If you are going through a difficult moment, right now, this conversation is for you.  On this podcast episode I speak to Savio Clemente who survived stage 3 cancer, through determination, forgiveness and compassion for himself.  We talk about how he was able to overcome treatment symptoms, and how his journey lead him to completely change his life for the positive.  We also discuss emotions in boys, vulnerability and shame and of course, the importance of self compassion during a healing journey. 

If you are going through a difficult moment, right now, this conversation is for you.  On this podcast episode I speak to Savio Clemente who survived stage 3 cancer, through determination, forgiveness and compassion for himself.  We talk about how he was able to overcome treatment symptoms, and how his journey lead him to completely change his life for the positive.  We also discuss emotions in boys, vulnerability and shame and of course, the importance of self compassion during a healing journey. 

Listen to Alexi's story of overcoming lung COVID during a time when little was known about the virus. Listen to how she was able to alchemize this difficult moment into something greater with gratitude and compassion. We also talk about psychic powers, listening to our bodies, self-care, and the power of compassion.

Listen to Alexi's story of overcoming lung COVID during a time when little was known about the virus. Listen to how she was able to alchemize this difficult moment into something greater with gratitude and compassion. We also talk about psychic powers, listening to our bodies, self-care, and the power of compassion.

Listen to this remastered version of my interview with Lara Naughton on compassion during and after a sexual assault.  In this conversation Lara shares how love and compassion saved her life after she was kidnapped while on vacation.  She talks about how compassion changed her, and shares her ideas on how to change systems so that they can work better for both men and women who are involved in SA.