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Explore APSC's My Family Audio Series A story-driven 3-part audio project about Cambodian, Hmong, Laotian, Vietnamese, and other Southeast Asian families doing everything possible to breathe with ease and live freely besides the people we love.  Created by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, and hosted by writer and activist Michelle MiJung Kim, My Family seeks to answer many of the questions countless families in our communities are grappling with today. Mass deportation and family separation are fueled by isolation and silence. With My Family, we aim to dismantle both with stories full of heart, compassion, and an honest look at the tangled paths many of us take to reckon with the past, rebuild our lives, and make a new place home.  Our deep gratitude extends to all the community members who shared their stories with us, even while painful to recount. Their commitment to creating stronger, more informed communities is unparalleled.    My Family Ep. 1: How did we get here?  In our first episode, we talk to Roger Viet Chung to bring APSC's longstanding Restoring Our Original True Selves (ROOTS) program from inside San Quentin to listeners outside. Roger is faculty in the Department of Ethnic Studies at Laney College and a founder and faculty lead of Restoring our Communities (ROC), Laney College's program for formerly incarcerated students and justice involved juveniles. He previously served as the lead instructor and curriculum designers of ROOTS.  We also speak with NC, Pam, and T. NC was deported to Laos this past year. Pam was deported to Cambodia three years ago, and T was deported to Cambodia six years ago.  Music from episode 1, as well as related resources, can be found below in the show notes. If you are an impacted community member in California or have a family member who is directly impacted by detention and deportation, we encourage you to contact APSC at info@asianprisonersupport.com or our partners at New Light Wellness and the Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants.   Music: Somleng Tro Khmer by Satiya, a Cambodian Australia singer and songwriter Pka Kompong Thom by Satiya   Resources: My Family Episode 1 discussion guide  APSC Data Report on Incarcerated and Formerly Incarcerated Asians and Pacific Islanders Asian Law Caucus legal resources and video explainers for Southeast Asians facing deportation threats Eddy Zheng's story    Transcript Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:00:00] All across the United States, ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, is terrorizing immigrant neighborhoods. Every time I scroll on social media, I see horrifying videos of children being ripped apart from their parents as they get shoved inside unmarked cars of ICE agents. You can hear the family's cries for help, children wailing, neighbors and protesters yelling at the abductors.   The scene is [00:01:00] pure chaos, swirling with desperation and fear. I notice I'm clenching my jaw as I imagine the trauma of the moment that will last a lifetime for these families. But the scene usually ends here, and not long after I scroll away, I'm met with another slew of videos of similar intensity. But what happens to the people after this painful moment?   What happens to the families after the protesters depart? What happens when their loved ones actually get detained, get deported? where do they go, and what happens to those who remain? I'm your host, Michelle MiJung Kim, and I'm partnering with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express to bring you stories from families who are grappling with the impossible choices amid the cruelty and horrors of mass detention and deportation, stories full of truth, understanding, and lived experiences that are too often hidden or silenced. [00:02:00]   Tony (pseudonym): Even though I don't have no family and I don't even have no family over there, and I don't even know nothing about Vietnam because I left the country when I was 10 years old.”   My dad raised all four of m- you know, me and my sibling all by himself. So just emotion and everything rush in, it's just like, you know, heartbreaking.   So every time, when my dad come to visit me, he always break down and cry because he just like, feel sad that his oldest son is gonna get shipped back to his country.   Pam (pseudonym): My son bought a car for me. He bought a car. He's like, “Mama, you're not getting deported. I got you a Honda Civic already. I got you a car. I got a place for you.” You know how, that affect me when your family member bought you stuff be thinking they'd be coming home?   Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:03:00] Every family threatened by ICE is different, with their unique traditions, memories, and inside jokes. But there are also fears and questions that every community being ripped apart shares, whether our families are Asian, Latino, Black, or Arab. For many Southeast Asians in the United States, there's one other thing in common.   Their families found refuge here in the '70s and '80s, fleeing unthinkable genocide and war in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. Most have loved ones who didn't survive. The ones who made it out, around one point one million, are the largest refugee community ever resettled in the United States. Upon arriving here, families were forced into impoverished and under-resourced neighborhoods.   Parents who just lived through war and genocide never got the mental and physical healthcare they critically needed. To survive poverty and attacks in their neighborhoods and schools, some youth turned to gangs and [00:04:00] crimes. After serving their time, they've since grown up, transformed, and found their ways to heal.   They are now mentors, parents, small business owners, homeowners, just everyday neighbors who, like most of us, take their kids to school and pick up groceries and call this country home. And yet, around sixteen thousand of these Southeast Asian community members are facing imminent deportation based on convictions from years, if not decades ago, and despite the fact that they already served their sentence.   Today, California is home to the largest Southeast Asian American population, followed by Texas, Washington, and Minnesota. And these families are seeking answers. How did we get here? What can we do to keep our family safe and together? And their friends and neighbors are asking questions, too. How can this be?   What can we do? That's where these stories come [00:05:00] in. We're taking a closer look at what happens to families after the headlines pass and the blaring noise quiets down. You'll hear directly from people who are living on all sides of this nightmare, all trying to do what's best for their kids, their parents, their loved ones.   Welcome to My Family.   As some listeners may know, the Asian Prisoner Support Committee based in Oakland, California, was born out of the campaign to support the San Quentin 3, Eddy Zheng, Viet Mike Ngo, and Rico Riemedio. The San Quentin 3 advocated for ethnic studies in the California State Prison, and in retaliation, the prison administration sent them to solitary confinement.   Out of that struggle, they started the Restoring Our Original True Selves, or ROOTS program at San Quentin, which the Asian [00:06:00] Prisoner Support Committee continues today, teaching hundreds of people under the motto, ” No history, no self. Know history, know self.” Together in ROOTS, community members incarcerated in California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation prisons, or CDCR, learn immigrant and refugee histories, address intergenerational and inherited trauma, and build lifelong leadership and community skills.   Many ROOTS alumni are now mentors and counselors in California, while others are working in reentry, violence prevention, faith, and other community organizations across the state.   To kick off our first episode, we'll start with some context from Roger Viet Chung. Roger is faculty in the Department of Ethnic Studies at Laney College in Oakland, and founder and faculty lead of Restoring Our Communities, Laney's program for formerly incarcerated students and justice-involved youth.   He has served as the lead instructor and curriculum developer of the ROOTS in San [00:07:00] Quentin.   A content warning for our listeners that in today's episode we'll be discussing war and genocide, inherited trauma and self-hatred, depression, and family separation. Here's Roger.   Roger Viet Chung: My name is Roger Viet Chung. Uh, I'm from Oakland, California, and I currently work for Laney College. At Laney College I instruct in the Department of Ethnic Studies, a range of classes that range from Southeast Asian studies all the way to courses like race, gender, and sports.   In 2013, um, I had the honor and privilege of, supporting and facilitating a course for Asian Americans and others in San Quentin State Prison, and which launched me on a, a journey of understanding more about incarceration, the prison industrial complex, abolition, the way pipelines form. And since 2013, I've been deeply involved in figuring out how to work reentry, how to support those in custody, how to help people come home, how to help people on parole tell their stories.   Um, [00:08:00] and so since 2013, uh, I've been working for a program called Restoring Our Communities, which is a reentry program at Laney College, where we support the reentry of folks coming home from prison, jail, juvenile hall and help them explore their post-secondary pathways and dreams. In addition to that, I also run our Laney College, a satellite campus inside the Alameda County Juvenile Justice Center, where, we work with, uh, young people who are interested in going to college, transferring to four-year universities, um, and, uh, reuniting with their families.   Uh, I'm a Vietnamese American. I was born in, uh, 1978 and, born in the United States, my proximity to incarceration and the entire carceral landscape you know, was pretty distant up until I went to graduate school. Uh, when I was in graduate school in, um, the early 2000s, I heard a story about a person named Eddy Zheng, who at that time was incarcerated in San Quentin State Prison.   We heard this story about how Eddy and two other folks were asking for ethnic studies programming at their [00:09:00] prison when there was a growing movement for education inside CDCR. Uh, we understood that, you know, that movement, um, you know, landed Eddy in solitary confinement, got him transferred, uh, to another prison.   And I think for me, that was my first moment where as an Asian American, I connected both with this idea that Asian Americans were doing time, but also you know, it intersected with my field of study, ethnic studies. And so, that was probably my first moment where I saw myself possibly in the work.   Michelle MiJung Kim: Before we come back to Roger, we had a chance to talk to Eddy Zheng about his fight for ethnic studies at San Quentin, the early days of APSC, and how he continues to support incarcerated and formerly incarcerated community members. Let's hear from Eddy   Eddy Zheng: Happy New Breath everyone. My name is Eddy Zheng.   The importance of ethnic studies, Asian American study, [00:10:00] is really focuses on the long tradition of the struggles, that many of the immigrants and refugees, the people who came to this country, uh, for multiple reasons, right? Some of them came voluntarily, and some of them came as refugee because the forced migration as a result of the United States' foreign policies, and then many of the push and pull challenges that came from other, uh, countries across the world.   The long tradition of, of that struggle really is a internal one, right? The internal struggle is finding a sense of belonging in a foreign country or in a country even though we may be born here sometimes, there's still this sense of being treated and being respected as an American versus a perpetual uh, foreigner.    And for many of the people who were impacted by the criminal legal system [00:11:00] and by this type of oppressive foreign policy and systemic racism oftentimes people don't necessarily get an opportunity to understand their culture and history that informs their identity. So therefore as even I was learning how to read and write and speak English and to eventually to become thinking critically I have experienced the power of when I was able to comprehend and articulate the connection that I have, right, with my ancestors and my culture and the history that informs my identity.   Immediately, I was able to, find confidence and find that sense of belonging that I was not alone, that there, there was a long lineage of the knowledge, The connected point to, not only who I am as an individual, but then who I am connected [00:12:00] to, the rest of the humanity, right?   I think when we talk about that lineage really ties back to the 1968 Third World Liberation Front, when students and people in the community, the activists that who stood up fighting for the opportunity to have curriculums and, or materials that really teaches a more well-rounded history around, the makeup of the United States of America, So the fight for the Asian American studies, women's studies, and global studies was very important, as it continue to 1969 in UC Berkeley, and then also later on in 1999, where students are also facing threats of having ethnic studies and Asian American studies eliminated, from the university curriculum, right?   So I have experienced all those lineage of struggles to fight for what the basic academic right, for people [00:13:00] to learn about each other's culture and history and how that historically has been continued to also trying to erase history. when I was in San Quentin State Prison, then once I was able to start to become a thinker, then I realized especially after September 11, the scapegoating of people of color, scapegoating of people that who came from other countries is perpetuated within the prison industrial complex, myself and three of my friends, we were advocating for, uh, the opportunity to be able to, uh, engage, in this process of, Asking to have Asian American studies or ethnic studies within the prison college program, And so that, that was when we signed a proposal, you know, advocating not only for the opportunity, to study, Asian American histories a- and cultures, but other people's culture and [00:14:00] histories at the same time, and then also honoring the prisoners' rights, right?   To choose, what we want to learn and how we participate in the decision-making process within the volunteer-ran college program in the San Quentin State Prison. The outcome was the three of my friends who signed the proposal you know, Mike Ngo Rico Riemedio we were, uh, put into solitary confinement uh, for signing that proposal.   And then my other friend that, who signed the proposal, Stephen Liebb, you know, even though he didn't go to solitary confinement, that he, but he was punished as a result of signing the proposal. That's when the forming of an unexpected Asian American movement, right, in the Bay Area, which is the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, where volunteers and activists that who have heard of the struggles, of the activism inside San Quentin advocas- in advocacy for Asian American studies, ethnic studies, and prisoners rights, that they [00:15:00] came together to support us, you know, inside the prison system.   And so it's very interesting in that, the dynamic, uh, between, we want you to, uh, learn and we wanna give you opportunity to learn, but then learning and applying what you learn comes at a price, that's where the importance of why ethnic studies of Asian Americans are important because it allow us to gain power, right? when we gain power of thinking, and critical thinking, then there's this fear from the, the people that, who have power and don't wanna share that power.   And so that's why it's very important. So fast-forward to post-incarceration after… first of all, I spent 11 months, uh, in solitary confinement as a result of that advocacy in San Quentin. And then later on, uh, when I was finally released after, uh, being incarcerated for 21 years, [00:16:00] I've never forgotten the importance of, creating more learning opportunities within the prison system for those that who are still incarcerated.   Around 2012, that's when we, you we meaning that, you know, that's when I me and members of the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, we started thinking about how do we go inside the prison and create Asian American studies and ethnic studies program inside, We were able to went under you know, as volunteers, we were able to go into San Quentin State Prison to participate, uh, in in this program called, TRUST. I believe the acronym is, uh, Teaching Responsibility Utilizing Sociological Training, uh, which is designed to transform incarcerated men, uh, from social liabilities into assets, right?   So, Uh, while we were participating, we were able to get an opportunity to engage The participants who are [00:17:00] AAPIs to ask them if they are interested into creating a program where we're able to, learn about our culture and history, And they all agreed that it's important.   After about, like, almost like a year or more of kind of like a collaboration, brainstorming, and advocacy from within the prison, finally in 2013, I think that's when, we started the first cohort of the ROOTS program. The ROOTS acronym is Restoring Our Original True Selves, uh, which is, really came about as a result of the brainstorming of the prisoners, a lo- of many of the lifetime prisoners who were inside.    Because they felt that along the way they have lost themselves, right, as they were trying to find a sense of belonging.   So the goal is to, uh, use that as a way to heal intergenerational trauma that many of the prisoners experience when they came to the United States, and that ended up, making poor choices and then, [00:18:00] uh, involved in the criminal legal system.   that's when the first ROOTS program was started in 20, uh, 13. And then what is interesting was that when it started, I wasn't allowed to go in to participate in the program that I co-founded with the people inside, it wasn't, uh- Until the graduation of the first cohort of ROOTS, uh, that they allow me to go in to do a keynote speech, right? Because the participants inside, advocated saying that, “Hey, we would like Eddy to come in to be our keynote speaker at our graduation.”   And so that's when I was able to go in and really, experience this fruition of all the advocacy. seeing many of those leaders and participants graduating from the first year of the ROOTS program really solidified why an Asian American study is so important, right? It really focuses on, uh, for the participant to [00:19:00] learn about the connection the, to the ancestors and the culture and, and the history.   I mean, That sense of belonging they had lost along the way or for many was not able to learn in traditional economic environment, and then part of this is also even though the curriculum focused Asian American studies, but then it also connects to other people's colors of histories and how the intersection of that of that experience domestically, internationally, are connected to the same systems of oppression in, in that space.   I think what, what is also important is that once they were able to learn about their own culture and history, they inform their identity. They're able to also learn about other people's history, other people's culture that inform their identities. So immediately there's opportunity to, humanize each other And so that's why this is so important that we must engage in the collective learning [00:20:00] process that allow us the opportunity for collective healing. And when the collective learning, collective healing is invested and engaged in racial solidarity, that's how we can embark on this journey of collective liberation.   The ROOTS program is the first ever Asian American studies ethnic studies program in the history of the penal system, and then this continues on to today, right? since 2013.   Michelle MiJung Kim: That was Eddy Zheng. In 2017, Eddy founded the New Breath Foundation to help underserved frontline groups empower, heal, and change the lives of Asian, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander community members with a focus on the incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, and those who have been impacted by immigration and criminal legal [00:21:00] systems.   Let's return to Roger and what stood out to him when he first started working in San Quentin.   Roger Viet Chung: I think when I first went into San Quentin State Prison in 2013, um, again, I mentioned I was born in 1978, and, um, you know, I looked across the room to people who were around my age, um, none of whom were actually born in the United States. And so I think there's this really interesting question that needs to be pursued around Southeast Asians, Asian Americans that have immigrated at a young age, you know, largely through, the pathways of war that make that experience so much different than a, an experience like my own, right?   Born here in the United States, but also different than my parents, who immigrated to the United States as adults. And so the 1.5 generation as we will frame it today, we're gonna be talking about Asian Americans, Southeast Asians, refugees, immigrants that came to the United States at a, a young age, you know, all the way up until their adolescence. We're looking at a population that has had significant experience with [00:22:00] social institutions like schools, uh, elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools that their parents may not have.   This was a time in California where we began to see more prisons being built, more apparatuses designed to be able to figure out how to work with young people, mainly through the lens of punishment and deterrence.   And so I think the idea of coming into, a state like California during a political landscape where, punishment, prisons and tough on crime positions were being applied to both adults and young people is something to consider when we're thinking about the 1.5 generation, um, that has been incarcerated.   I think that as the 1.5 generation immigrated into the United States you know, through various refugee and immigration policies, you know, they're inheriting a context in California where they've already been criminalized and their pathways into, uh, juvenile halls, into county jails, and into state prisons are being mapped out, without them really even knowing.   In [00:23:00] ROOTS, um, which was an Asian Prisoner Support Committee sponsored program, everyone has an, a unique and individual story, but, you know, the more we learned about people's stories, there just seemed to be a lot of collective threads that, tied everyone together. so if we were to talk about the 1.5 generation, you know, like a common collective journey would be something like this, right?   You know, whether a person escaped from Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos a lot of the common stories were, young people were born in Southeast Asia during or at the tail end of the wars in Southeast Asia, and most of them were not part of the original refugee exodus, which mainly featured, the elite and the educated.   And so one of the collective stories has been that a lot of the 1.5 generation, who would have otherwise left at much younger ages or even been born in the United States were experiencing significant transitions in countries that, were returning from civil [00:24:00] war. a lot of that destruction and a lot of the, the trauma and those experiences, right, began right around there.   And when people began thinking about, exiting, these positions, whether it be for political or, or class-based reasons or both, one of the collective stories that we tended to hear very often was that young people were really able to visualize, remember, right, even today, a lot of violence, a lot of trauma, that, you know, really propelled their, either their escape or, their emigration Young people met, went to camps oftentimes.   If they left Vietnam, they were in the Philippines, Malaysia, Hong Kong or Thailand. And if, you left Cambodia or you left Laos, you ended up in a variety of different forms of camps in Thailand awaiting for United Nations sponsorship. I think this is an important part of understanding the journey, because a lot of the one point five generation that became incarcerated were exposed to a variety of different traumas at [00:25:00] young ages that they still had kind of these vivid memories of.   And so as they, they left camps, you know, many stayed in camps for months, some even years. They were resettled into the United States, often in places that didn't have a lot of Asian Americans. And so at the time, United States refugee policy really asked all the states to share, right, some sort of, right, burden in resettling refugees.   And so a lot of the one point five generation that we met inside San Quentin, you know, their story in the United States didn't actually originate in California. Many of them were in Wisconsin or Ohio or Florida or Arkansas as their first stop into the United States before their parents did a secondary migration into a place that had more support, had a stronger ethnic community, um, and in some cases, right, just had, more protection against racial discrimination.   And so as parents, moved into ethnic communities and, and sought spaces that could protect themselves from racial [00:26:00] discrimination, the young students, right, the one point five generation didn't have, those same protections. And so many of them were enrolled into public schools, oftentimes schools that were underfunded and oftentimes schools that, uh, were in districts that had young people of color competing for resources.   When it came to that, that 1.5 generation, that journey into United States schools, was, I think, the beginning of understanding how to survive in a place where, a unique form of racial discrimination, a unique form, right, of class identity had to be navigated as they began their journeys in education, a lot of them feeling a lot of pressure to be, strong students in order to, you know, deliver their parents out of poverty. A lot of themes came up. One of the approaches that we took in the ROOTS program was looking at trauma.   We're not the first program to look at this, but I, I do think that it's a very important and interesting way to think about, [00:27:00] understanding the stories of people who are incarcerated. You know, oftentimes the, the narrative of people who are incarcerated is that they have committed an act that has traumatized another person, and therefore, right, their own trauma is something that we often either don't allow, ignore, or outright say, right?   “You don't deserve your own trauma because of the things that landed you in custody.” And so I think one of the projects that we really wanted to look at was to help people kind of, like, name their trauma, explore it, and, right, heal from it. And so when we thought about, the activities and the curriculum design, you know, we had people kind of, share stories of immigration, share stories of how, their parents came to name them, stuff like that.   And, you know, one humongous theme that came out in the ROOTS program was this idea of self-hatred and how much being in, right, the United States and being in places where you experience discrimination and you experience poverty led to really, really low concepts of [00:28:00] self and, , really resulted in, people, literally writing, right, reflections, saying things like, “I hated myself.   I hated how I looked,” right? “I hated my name.” Those are some of the themes that kind of were fleshed out as we explored the ROOTS program. And we wanted to take a look at, How that trauma not only would h-help people kind of understand their own trajectories more, but how that trauma could also be translated into, right, a more institutional form of advocacy for themselves and understanding how to do things like describe and explain, right, and be introspective about the things in their youth that led to, right, their incarceration.   Because one of the things we also noticed was that people were struggling to tell stories about their families because they didn't wanna bring shame, they didn't want to blame their families. And so, a lot of our 1.5 generation folks struggled with being able to tell a story to a parole board that kind of held their freedom in their hands.   And so being [00:29:00] able to have people tell their stories, right, to engage, right, some of the things that they experienced as traumatic, help them heal from those things, but also name them, , through ethnic studies concepts, through, history and through culture, was in a lot of ways, very freeing.   I think I'd be remiss to not mention that, you know, when we did programming inside ROOTS, there was a very, very, I think collective agreed upon, workshop that people inside wanted to do, and it was a workshop about gangs. Not just the criminalization of gangs and how gangs have become criminalized into the '90s, into the 2000s, but I think, incarcerated people, were really advocating around things like gang prevention. And so a lot of stories came out around, like, why people join gangs in the first place and, , it's not a brand-new story at all, but it was something that they wanted to explore and they were really, I think, very adamant about exploring among themselves.   And, you know, I think if you talk to incarcerated people, one of the things that they're so passionate about is [00:30:00] making sure their stories reach young people, which has also inspired me to go into juvenile hall to do a lot of work. But, one of the things that they wanted to develop, I think conceptually, was the idea of the migration to school-to-gang pipeline.   And, you know, whether or not the gang itself, should be conceptualized as, right, a protective, mechanism against racism, against bullying, against harassment, against exploitation. I mean, those are all things that we know, young people are looking for, as they join gangs, especially those that are immigrating from Southeast Asia or even, right, Latin America.   I think the folks inside were really, really adamant about making that connection and understanding that, not only their participation in gangs, but the criminalization of the gangs through that participation was one of the pathways that led them to places like juvenile hall, the California Youth Authority, the Division of Juvenile Justice.   I think the folks inside would, um, say that they need to be accountable to you know, the decisions that [00:31:00] they made and they wish that they were stronger about not making decisions to do things like join, criminal-based organizations. But, I think that there is a reality that, you know, there are a lot of social forces that, drove, that type of youth behavior.   And so, when we were in San Quentin, I think a lot of the folks were like, we need to improve this idea by, you know, understanding that, part of our journey has been, as 1.5 generation young people is , our responses to our trauma, our responses to racism, our responses to, disconnects between us and our families, particularly our parents, right, led us through a path, that was laden with policies that were designed to punish us.   You know, I think something that's really important that that I would wanna mention is, you know, the apparatuses that were designed to control and to rehabilitate and to correct youth, those apparatuses have been abolished because they didn't work.   And so when I think about the 1.5 generation that immigrated to the United States during a time of [00:32:00] heavy, heavy juvenile punishment, had they immigrated today, right, and, these systems not existing, you know, would they have done a significant time in state prison? You know, I don't know.   Would they been criminally adjudicated as adults? I don't know. And so I think that when we think about, you know, Asian Americans and Southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders that are coming to the United States at a very specific time, specifically those guys we worked with in ROOTS, you know, history was just not on their side, and that's not something that individuals can control.   And so when we think about the situations that we're put in, I reflect on my own life about, you know, looking at people that look like me that were the same age as me and, just weren't born in the United States and had privileges like I did. You know, I think those are some of the things that, I would ask the community to reflect upon.   That, you know, we're looking at, such a traumatic and punished time in California and U.S. history to really kind of take, a broader approach and to be able to, you know, deconstruct some of the things that have happened to help understand the lives of people who, you know, are in ICE detention today   Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:33:00] That was Roger Viet Chung, faculty in Laney College's Department of Ethnic Studies and founder of Restoring Our Communities. This is APEX Express. We'll return after a short break. [00:34:00]   NC (pseudonym): We were refugees. It was because of the, the war, the secret war in Laos, I guess.   Michelle MiJung Kim: This is NC. He grew up in California after his parents' harrowing escape from war and persecution in Laos. He was incarcerated for 24 years as a result of a conviction when he was a young person. He earned parole last year in [00:35:00] 2025.   NC (pseudonym): You know, I don't know for sure, but I'm just going off what people say and what they tell me is because- we were refugees, and we were hunted, and, so we fled, and crossed the river into Thailand.   And from Thailand we were, um, we were sent to the US. That's it.   When my, when I came here, my dad says, ” Well, you gotta learn everything here, know the language and everything, because this is your country now.   You're gonna live here.” So that's, that's what he told me.   Things were tough because my parents don't know nothing about this country, so they don't, You know, it's help was very, I would say, I think the best word I can use is help was very narrow, because we had, like, an…   I had, like, an uncle who knew the language, and they would help my, dad and my mom. And then, um, my dad actually went to a vocational training school to learn how to do auto body, This was in when we were in, in Long Beach, but they [00:36:00] came over to, uh, Stockton to open up a, um, garage, you to fix cars and do auto body. Growing up it was just hard because, you know, we were, uh, always poor and we didn't know how to adjust to the c- you know, the community.   America is, like, totally different, 'cause we go to school and then we read, write, speak English, and then we don't, we don't do none of that inside the house. So there's kind of that culture clash where, you know, the parents wanna teach you something and then you go to school and you learn something else, and then you're s- you struggle with your, um, you know, everyday life because, those are two different things   I was basically working while I was in prison, taking a lot of self-help classes and, um, earning certifications and trying to better myself, um, learning job skills. So when I, parole, I can, become a productive member of society. So while I was in, also incarcerated, I was taking college courses, to try to, attain a [00:37:00] AA degree.   So I was doing a lot of that stuff while I was in prison programming. My plan was… when I got out, as far as for work I would just like any job will do, just as long as I got work, any job will do.   But the goal was to continue my education, get my, uh, degree in, um, sociology, try to to open up a, a place and to be, um, LCSW certified, a licensed clinical social worker so I can help people, just like how, um, when I was, um, incarcerated, I was talking to, um, an LCSW so they can like, help you when you get back from this environment to the streets to help you adjust. First of all, it's helping people, and a lot of people, when you come out and get out, there's really nothing, like nobody's… the way I see it is, like- I don't see a lot of help, you know?   I don't see a lot of help or any [00:38:00] help, in my community that I'm at. I figured that, you know what? More help or help is always good, and a lot of times people… While, while I was in, um, incarcerated, you know, incarceration does affect you, it, in a way, institutionalizes you and makes you think a certain way, act a certain way, be a certain way, and when you come out, you have to, like, try to adjust to, you know, the norms of, outside living.   When I was talking to my, um, social worker, she was giving me a lot of those pointers. So I was thinking, like, “Okay, you know what? This is something I could do.” I could help, you know, like, a youth who's been incarcerated or young people coming out or anybody of any ages from anywhere that has, um, cultural issues, You know, like, if they're coming from a different country and they're, they're coming to the US and they're having, like, cultural issues. it's just about transitioning from one place to another place.” when I paroled from prison and they told me that, I have a ICE hold, an immigration hold. And [00:39:00] then I wasn't sure, like, what that was, if it's happening or not. And then when they paroled me, uh, immigration came and picked me up and took me to a detention facility.    ICE came and picked me up at the prison and, um, I went to a detention facility in Bakersfield called Mesa Verde   Michelle MiJung Kim: We're gonna come back to NC and what he experienced at Mesa Verde on the next episode, and what happened after he was deported to Laos just four months ago. Right now, I want to introduce you to another community member, Pam. Pam also grew up in California. She was incarcerated for 16 years. Three years ago, she was detained by ICE and then deported to Cambodia   Pam (pseudonym): [00:40:00] So I'm gonna start it off when the day I find out that, um, I probably get deported in 2000… yeah, 2012. ICE came and see me, and they say, ” Well, we got you on record that, you know, you're on a list that you're gonna get deported when you parole.” So if I have any kind, like American citizen to prove that, you know, I can't parole, and this and that.   I was like, “Okay.” I really didn't pay attention. My mind was more like stuck. On that day, my mind was more like, “Wait, my attorney told me I'm not ever gonna get deported,” and it just, my mind is like wondering off, like, why is this happening now? So other than that, I started doing research. I just signed the paper.   I didn't even hear exactly what they told me because I, my mind's already like blow. So I just signed the paper. Didn't even know what I'm signing, so I just signed the paper like so they can leave me alone. I just [00:41:00] need to process something on my own.   When I finally process, I start doing research and…   But before I start doing research, I call my parent up and told them, “What's gonna happen?” And they, you know, and my parents tell me, “Just tell them you don't have a family over there. There's nobody over there that could support you, take care of you. You've been, uh, here in America all your life. There's nobody.   Nobody. So why they came and… why did someone send it to you, send you over there, and since you already did your time?” So it's some kinda- mixed feeling. It's a lot of mixed feeling as I can see there's a lot of hurt inside my family. I can see what they go through, and then I was like, “Okay, now just too much.”   So after I talk to my parent and then see how they feel about it, and I understand, and I do feel them, too.   And I do understand, and, um, ‘ cause I've never been really separate from my family that long until I got [00:42:00] locked up. So it's harder difficulty than anything. I don't even move away from my mom that far.   I live across the street. So it's hard for me to see that, I'm really, like, can't see my mom ever again. I started doing research for years and years and still, hoping that I could fight and why I'm in prison, but people keep on telling me, “You can't fight your case until you get through, um, the ICE detainer, and that's how you fight your case.”   And it's like, eh, I need to find a… You know, I started doing more research on the law library about ICE and, you know, about deportation, everything about the law. I did all that, but it's nothing that really helped me unless it's something against my life. So and I did more research about, like anything They say the only way you could get away from it is, like, something affects your life, something that danger you. It's like, it mean life or death. [00:43:00] But I even do research on that. They say if they stop the war in Cambodian… So it was hard. It was just a lot. It was just a lot of paperwork that I would have to go through and try to do the research and find out.   So I started talking to more about with my family about that, and then my dad say, “You know, I can see this is really stressing you out, and I can see that you're looking through a lot of stuff that don't help you to get out. But we still have hope that you're gonna come home to us.”   Michelle MiJung Kim:  Every person who shared their story with us talked about the family members and friends who supported them through these traumatic experiences, those who have stood with them in the darkest of times. Those relationships are what keeps people going, and it's no different for the person you're about to hear from, T.   T served his time in prison many years ago. After he got out of prison, he led a [00:44:00] full life. He got married, became a father, and grew in his career as a superintendent of a welding business, including jobs for the US Navy. And then one day, everything changed.   T (pseudonym): You know, I, I'd been reporting, uh, as scheduled, to the, you know, the ICE agent e- every, you know, I start out once a month, once every three months, once every six months, once every year.   And I, I, I've been reporting perfectly how they want. And then one day, you know, I, I came home and I went look at, check my mail and, there's a, a mail from them. So I opened the mail up and it tells me, the mail tells me they're gonna detain me. They give me a date to be there, and they say they're gonna detain me.   You know, I, and my, my heart just sank, you know. When I saw that letter- Mm … I'm like, “Oh my God.” And you know, I, I, it broke me down right there, standing over there by the mailbox. And then I told my wife and, , we [00:45:00] both, sat and, you know, did a little, a little crying.   And it's just like depressed knowing that they can, uh, detain me, that scheduled date that they gave me, yeah, it, it, it was tough. It's like a, a little… I think they gave us like a, a month or something. No, three weeks, half a month, something like that. it, it, it was tough 'cause I, I, me, me and my wife and my two daughter we, you know, we have family.   They, they okay, you know. yeah, I, I've checked in and, uh, they, they, they did detain me and, uh, of course my wife's all crying and, you know, my daughter, my, both my daughters young at that time. They're still young. They don't know what, what happened, you know. They asked my wife, “Hey, where's Dad?”   And you know, my, my wife didn't tell them what happened yet because they didn't, my wife didn't want them to, you know, worry. So my wife just told them, “Oh, you know, uh, your dad went to work. Maybe he'll be gone maybe a month or so.” She just don't want them to feel bad.   But yeah, my wife went through some stuff and trying to figure things out while I was in the detention center. and uh, [00:46:00] yeah, I got interview and got deported. and my wife, she was struggling at that time. She didn't work either because she's the, you know, she stayed home as a housewife, take the kids to school and stuff like that.   Michelle MiJung Kim: T's wife and daughter are now with him in Cambodia. He's currently serving as a staff member at New Light Wellness in Phnom Penh providing mental health and healing services to other people and families who are deported and separated   T (pseudonym): Yes. To me it's very important, to have someone to talk to 'cause when you're deported, uh, you, you already broken. you feel like you're a broken person, and, and sometime you don't know who to talk to because you're at a new, new place.   You don't really know no one, you know? And, uh, it, it, it's heartbreaking you trying to, uh, find someone to talk to. You, you feel like you're alone.   But at New Light, [00:47:00] we provide all that. You need someone to talk to, here. We, we, here you could pick one of our team here to talk to. You can go to the facility that we have over there and just talk to someone and just relax over there and just, you know, we, we have, always have someone there to help, talk about anything you want, to guide to bring closure, that, that's the thing, uh, about our team here.   We wanna make sure we have all that, everything Cause we understand, we understand, uh, being deported need someone to talk to, because that's what I, I did when, uh, the first couple years when I got deported here and I, I was so stressed out, and I don't know who to turn to, where to go.   Luckily, I found New Light, and I'm so glad, and I'm still with them now.   Deportation to me, I feel it is very cruel. It breaks families apart, and then it'll change the life and future of, your children. You know, it, it… Deportation, it, it's just a sad [00:48:00] word, it's just a sad word. It, it's just… It's like pain. It's a lot of pain, that word deportation.   It's a lot of pain. I mean, I, I… It, it's just… To me, it's just a lot of pain. It is just getting ripped off from your family, and affect everyone. It affect, you know, your brother and sister, your cousin, your niece, your nephew. You know, that's how, that's how I, I sees it,   Roger Viet Chung: Yeah, I think it's, um You know, I, I think it's important to, understand that, um, you know, deportation, isn't something that existed, since 1776, right?   Michelle MiJung Kim: That familiar voice is Roger, who you heard from earlier. Here's what he thinks about previously incarcerated people getting deported despite having already served their time.   Roger Viet Chung: And so I think when we kinda think about the logics of a [00:49:00] person who is serving a sentence and is being released by even authorities around in the carceral state and determining that they're not a threat to society, that they're no longer harmful to society, that they've done their rehabilitation in order to continue to contribute to, right, the nation and to their families and their communities, I think we have a very contradictory message where, you know, you actually have, a, a carceral apparatus naming a person as no longer a harm to society, but then, right, being deported.   And so when we think about these stories and, you know, I remember talking to a life term prisoner who has children who were born in the United States. And, he's going up to the parole board, and he has, an ICE hold. He has, you know, a mandatory deportation because of his conviction. He's asking the questions to himself, you know, “What do I do? do I fight to be released from prison? If that's the case, I might get taken to ICE custody right away and, [00:50:00] get my travel documents prepared to be deported. Or do I stay in prison so that my family can continue to see me in the United States, right?   And maybe, I don't do the types of things that are gonna win me my freedom in front of a parole board.” And I think those are the types of contradictions in the stories that I think illuminate the contradictions and, right, like, the problems with the way that we approach, deportation today.   There's, the idea of deportation, we often, I think because it's related to law, oftentimes, right, you know, our communities, see that as an objective or neutral phenomenon, that's always been that way. And so I think, when we try to get folks to kinda understand the ways that deportation and, you know, immigration policy, has been shaped, one of the things that I'll ask students, I remember being inside San Quentin, and I, I ask this of my Laney students all the time, you know, I ask them, “When was Immigration and Customs Enforcement founded?”, “What year was like the birth of what we understand now as ICE?” And, [00:51:00] students will guess, they'll guess, they'll guess, and maybe they'll look it up online, and they'll say, ” Oh, Roger, it's 2001.” Then I'll ask people, “Who's older, you or ICE?”   And most of the time, the people that I ask are older than ICE. And so I think one of the ways that we kind of approach this is, you know, by understanding that what's happening now is a, a very new and contemporary phenomenon immigration in its most brutal form, right? Or deportation in its most brutal form.   And I ask people, right, you know, “What was ICE called before it was called ICE?” There was an, a, an organization that existed before. And, you know, people will struggle a little bit, and then, you know, I'll say the initials, uh, INS. And then people will say, “What does that stand for?” INS stands for, uh, Immigration Naturalization Services.   And so you have this really significant institutional difference, just in the name itself around how a migrant is being treated and perceived. Right? On the one hand, right, you have enforcement through [00:52:00] ICE. But for the most part, right, immigration policy in the United States was not ICE. It was Naturalization Services, right?   It was about welcoming people to come to the United States, contribute, be taxpayers, right? And, become citizens, become naturalized. And so I think that's one of the ways that we begin thinking about how to deconstruct the idea that deportation is just a matter of law, it's a neutral idea, and that it's always existed in the form that it has.   And, you know, we know that the law that really is driving Asian American deportation or a- and other immigrant-based deportation today is a law that was designed in 1996. And so- The way that we see, right, immigration today is really kind of like a parcel, a very small piece of immigration history and deportation history for that matter in the United States.   And I think that's one way that I think helps people understand that you know, what we're seeing now is, a phenomenon that doesn't have to be what it is.   I'm lucky enough to be able to be [00:53:00] part of a post-secondary system that is, you know, one of the largest in the world and one of the most welcoming in the world.   I feel like part of my passion or my drive to keep going is I feel like there are some things that are still very much unexplored around this concept of re-entry. When I was in juvenile hall a couple of years ago, I met a young person who told me that he didn't have a good relationship with his dad.   His dad wasn't in his life. His dad has been in and out of prison and learned mostly about his dad through his sister, but began reconnecting with him a little bit. this young person had, a pretty significant conviction inside the juvenile hall which, like I mentioned earlier, which had it happened 10, 15 years ago, he would be in the California Youth Authority.   And, you know, he was telling me about his dad and, you know, there were so many things that felt like I knew him. He told me the job that his dad had, which was a very unique job [00:54:00] that is not very common. And I wrote who I thought his dad was on a piece of paper and I showed it to him and he said, “Yes, that's my dad.”   And so his dad, came to Laney College, um, joined the machining program after years in prison and got you know, a living wage job, in the steel industry, was able to buy a home and he was able to put his daughter through graduate school. but he never mentioned a son to me. And I left the hall that day and, I called him walking to my car and I said, “Hey, like, um, I think I met your son.   I didn't know you had one.” And he said, “Yeah, that's still a shameful part of my life that I'm, still trying to figure out.” And so I, I think that there's something that we're missing still. I think, you know, when in San Quentin we talked about, intergenerational trauma and the trauma that you can inherit from your parents and your parents' parents, and I think there's something here where, you know, we, we can engage both generations at [00:55:00] once to really kind of figure out some of this healing.   I feel like there's still something that, we as a team as a family and as a community are on the verge of understanding a little bit better and breaking those cycles.   Michelle MiJung Kim: I can't stop thinking about what T said about the word deportation. It's cruel. It's a painful word. It's a sad word that rips you off from your family. Many of our listeners are here because you believe a different world is possible, one that replaces isolation with kinship, trauma with repair, and loss with transformation.   You want a future full of families together and safe. That's the kind of future we at My Family want, too. Each story we share is not only a reminder about the violent systems that harm so many communities, but it's also a reminder of how much each of us is [00:56:00] needed in this fight for a more just and liberatory future.   There is so much pain and trauma in each person's story, there's also so much strength, resilience, and a steadfast belief in community and hope. I'm taking a deep breath as I reflect on these stories, and I invite you to do the same.   And if you're impacted by mass deportation and detention, there are organizations and advocates who can help you, from mental health and wellness to legal help and family support. In Northern California, where we are based, we encourage you to reach out to the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, the Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants, and New Light Wellness.   You'll [00:57:00] find links to these organizations in the show notes at kpfa.org/programs/APEX-express. The music in today's program is by Cambodian Australian singer and songwriter Satiya. We'll include links to his songs in the show notes, too.   We hope you'll join us for episodes two and three of My Family, where we'll deep dive into what happens when our family and neighbors are detained, and what happens when they are forced to move to a country they've never known. Thank you for joining, and we'll see you next time on My Family.   I'm your host, Michelle Mijung Kim, and this podcast is brought to you by APEX Express and the Asian Prisoner Support Committee. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.   Have a great night.   [00:58:00]    The post APEX Express – 8.20.26 – My Family Ep. 1 appeared first on KPFA.

Mark Stevens is the author of The Flynn Martin thriller series including No Lie Lasts Forever (2025) and Two Truths and a Lie (2026) both from Thomas & Mercer, The Fireballer (Lake Union 2023) and the Allison Coil Mystery Series including Antler Dust, Buried by the Roan, Trapline, Lake of Fire and The Melancholy Howl. Buried by the Roan, Trapline, and Lake of Fire were all finalists for the Colorado Humanities Center for the Book Award. Stevens has published short stories in the Ellery Queen Mystery Magazine, Mystery Tribune and Denver Noir (Akashic Books 2022). Denver Noir went on to win the Colorado Book Award for Best Anthology in 2023. Stevens was a co-editor for Four Corners Voices, and anthology of fiction, essays, and poetry which won the Colorado Book Award for best anthology in 2025. The Four Corners marks the quadripoint in the Southwestern United States where the states of Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah meet. In 2016 and 2024, Stevens was named Rocky Mountain Fiction Writers' Writer of the Year. He hosts a regular podcast for that organization. It can be found at https://www.rmfw.org/podcast.php or on any of your favorite podcast platforms. Stevens has served as president of the Rocky Mountain Chapter of the Mystery Writers of America. He also publishes book reviews on his review website https://markhstevens.wordpress.com/. He lives in Mancos, Colorado in the shadow of Mesa Verde where for more than 700 years the ancient Pueblo people made their homes. See more about this author and his books at htpps://writermarkstevesn.com Host Sue Hinkin's website https://www.suehinkin.com Music by Peter Tavalin at https://www.petertavalin.com YouTube: https://youtu.be/UVkTjy5jHtk Spotify: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-stevens-two-truths-and-a-lie-ep-2/id687959058?i=1000779907646 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-stevens-two-truths-and-a-lie-ep-2/id687959058?i=1000779907646

Mark Stevens is the author of The Flynn Martin thriller series including No Lie Lasts Forever (2025) and Two Truths and a Lie (2026) both from Thomas & Mercer, The Fireballer (Lake Union 2023) and the Allison Coil Mystery Series including Antler Dust, Buried by the Roan, Trapline, Lake of Fire and The Melancholy Howl. Buried by the Roan, Trapline, and Lake of Fire were all finalists for the Colorado Humanities Center for the Book Award. Stevens has published short stories in the Ellery Queen Mystery Magazine, Mystery Tribune and Denver Noir (Akashic Books 2022). Denver Noir went on to win the Colorado Book Award for Best Anthology in 2023. Stevens was a co-editor for Four Corners Voices, and anthology of fiction, essays, and poetry which won the Colorado Book Award for best anthology in 2025. The Four Corners marks the quadripoint in the Southwestern United States where the states of Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, and Utah meet. In 2016 and 2024, Stevens was named Rocky Mountain Fiction Writers' Writer of the Year. He hosts a regular podcast for that organization. It can be found at https://www.rmfw.org/podcast.php or on any of your favorite podcast platforms. Stevens has served as president of the Rocky Mountain Chapter of the Mystery Writers of America. He also publishes book reviews on his review website https://markhstevens.wordpress.com/. He lives in Mancos, Colorado in the shadow of Mesa Verde where for more than 700 years the ancient Pueblo people made their homes. See more about this author and his books at htpps://writermarkstevesn.com Host Sue Hinkin's website https://www.suehinkin.com Music by Peter Tavalin at https://www.petertavalin.com YouTube: https://youtu.be/UVkTjy5jHtk Spotify: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-stevens-two-truths-and-a-lie-ep-2/id687959058?i=1000779907646 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-stevens-two-truths-and-a-lie-ep-2/id687959058?i=1000779907646

La Mesa Verde - 29.07.2026 - Olas de calor: sus causas, sus consecuencias y cómo enfrentarlas en mejores condiciones by En Perspectiva

La Mesa Verde - ¿Qué es el paisajismo ecosistémico? - 30.06.2026 by En Perspectiva

More than a decade after it was named one of the highest-priority trail projects in the state, ground has not been broken on the Paths to Mesa Verde project. But that time may be growing nearer.

This Sunday, we continue our National Park sermon series by exploring community through Mesa Verde National Park. Rev. Irick preaches from the book of Acts, chapter 4, verses 32 through 35, a passage also known as ‘They had Everything in Common.' Livestreamed on Sunday, June 21, 2026, from the sanctuary of Mayflower Congregational UCC Church in Oklahoma City.

La Mesa Verde - Residuos: Nuevo sistema de contenedores intradomiciliarios en Montevideo by En Perspectiva

The Mesa Verde Writers Conference will take place in September this year after organizers cited summer crowds and heat in southwest Colorado.

La Mesa Verde - Martes 28.04.2026 - Acuerdo de Escazú ¿Qué derechos tienen quien defienden el medio ambiente cuando denuncian una injusticia? by En Perspectiva

Send us Fan MailWe hike Canyon of the Ancients National Monument from the Dolores visitor center to the Sand Canyon Trail, chasing big views and even bigger history. We connect Sleeping Ute Mountain's origin story and geology to Ancestral Puebloan ruins like Sunny Alcove, Corncob House, and other cliff dwellings hidden in dry alcoves. • arriving at the Canyon of the Ancients visitor center and museum basics • walking the Dominguez Escalante Pueblo trail and spotting room blocks and a central kiva • linking Sleeping Ute Mountain myth to laccolith geology • scanning the landscape toward the La Plata Mountains, Mesa Verde, and McPhee Reservoir • summarizing the Dominguez and Escalante expedition and why their journals matter • heading to Sand Canyon Trail near Cortez and using spur trails to reach viewpoints • visiting Saddlehorn Pueblo, Corncob House, Double Cliff House, and Sunny Alcove • reflecting on how people lived in cliff alcoves and how modern names get assigned • wrapping the hike with distance and time plus favorite-site picks If y'all liked it, go ahead and give it a thumbs up. Let me know if you have any questions, comments, leave those below, or if you're on the podcast, make sure to use that link and drop us an email. Let us know what you're thinking. Support the show

La Mesa Verde - Martes 31.03.2026 - ¿Qué son los biocombustibles? ¿generan algún tipo de contaminación? ¿Cuáles son los tipos más utilizados? by En Perspectiva

Hotels and tourism businesses near Mesa Verde report early spring bookings, while park construction and shifting travel patterns shape the season outlook.

Visitation in 2025 at Mesa Verde National Park was down about 3.4 percent from the year before, but special events may bring more people this season.

In episode 400 of the RV Miles podcast, we celebrate nearly nine years of the show, and reflect on how the show and our RV life have evolved since 2017. To mark the milestone, we're offering up five RV trip ideas based only on places we've visited: a first-time RV trip to the Black Hills/Badlands, a spring wildlife-focused Yellowstone trip, scenic drives with Durango as a base including the Million Dollar Highway and Mesa Verde, a national parks power trip linking Grand Teton, Yellowstone, Devils Tower, Badlands and Wind Cave (plus options like Glacier or Theodore Roosevelt), and a slow-travel route from Astoria, Oregon to Seattle via Olympic National Park.  *Support independent RV journalism and unlock great perks by becoming a Mile Marker

Jamie Walden doesn't do soft landings. A Marine infantryman who pushed to Baghdad in '03, turned firefighter-paramedic, turned missionary, turned pastor in the shadow of Mesa Verde, Jamie has been consuming and contending with the intersection of the UAP space, intelligence operations, and biblical prophecy for over twenty years. Jamie is deeply connected to a task force of Green Berets and intelligence community operators who are briefing Congress and policymakers on the UAP and NHI space, and he brings a battlefield perspective to what he sees as the most comprehensive influence campaign in human history. He breaks down why 90% of what's being seen in the skies is human-made advanced tech, which is either ours, adversarial, or private sector breakaway, while the remaining unknown percentage traces back to channeled ancient knowledge from the powers of darkness. Jamie walks through the elephant analogy his task force uses to explain how the government is intentionally showing different people different angles of the same reality to keep everyone confused, divided, and most importantly, distracted from Christ. The deception, he argues, is not the existence of the phenomena, but the context and narrative wrapped around it.Jamie doesn't stop at disclosure. He connects the UAP conversation to the golden age language coming out of the current administration, tracing it back to the Cumaean Sibyl prophecies and the cult of Apollo, the occult symbolism embedded in the Great Seal, and what he calls a continuity of agenda running through every presidency. He unpacks how 'Christ consciousness' is being sown through the institutions of the new age, NAR, Mormonism, Catholicism, and even mainstream evangelicalism, and is priming the world to receive an anti-Christ. Though not through a jackboot on the neck, but through a deception so appealing that people will demand it, cheer it, and turn on anyone who refuses. Jamie lays out his polycrisis theory, which is a convergence of World War III, AI-driven bioweapons, astro-catastrophism, and global trauma designed to soften the collective consciousness, and makes the case that the only thing that will survive what's coming is an unmitigated, uncompromised identity in Christ. Not knowledge about Him, but a knowing of Him, and identity rooted in Him. https://brooklynbedding.com — Get 30% off sitewide when you use code Blurry. https://preborn.com/blurry — Visit the PreBorn! website or dial #250 and use keyword BABY to donate today. https://timtebow.com/tree-blurry/ — Get your copy of If the Tree Could Speak by Tim Tebow on Amazon today! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

La Mesa Verde - 25.02.2026 - ¿Qué es la contaminación visual y cómo afecta a las ciudades? by En Perspectiva

NDSU and RAND target rural needs; pioneer immigrant journeys, Mesa Verde storytelling, and rising demand with uncertain funding for the 988 crisis lifeline.

https://soundcloud.com/rene-de-paula-jr/ilha-de-pascoa-piramides-atlantida-e-os-mitos-de-civilizacoes-perdidas Easter Island and the Allure of “Lost Civilizations” https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/02/02/island-at-the-edge-of-the-world-mike-pitts-book-review  The Real Reason People Move Toward Risk https://youtu.be/7SOFoxXiLEQ?si=8V0YKaWN8hpAwsyn It can be seen from space and contains a staggering two hundred million mounds, each one nine metres across and two and a half metres tall https://www.discoverwildlife.com/animal-facts/insects-invertebrates/biggest-termite-mound Why termite kings and queens are monogamous: Scientists uncover surprising answer https://phys.org/news/2026-01-termite-kings-queens-monogamous-scientists.html (via ChatGPT) Ancestral Puebloans and Mesa Verde  https://chatgpt.com/share/6980abc8-eab0-8006-a31b-af47dd6fb1a9 (via ChatGPT) Myth of Atlantis https://chatgpt.com/c/67f1206d-dc98-8006-be71-b4fa69f74a42 Machu Picchu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machu_Picchu Helena Blavatsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Blavatsky a app do radinho!!!    http://radinhodepilha.com/radinho  canal do radinho no telegram:   http://t.me/radinhodepilha meu perfil no Threads: https://www.threads.net/@renedepaulajr meu perfil no BlueSky https://bsky.app/profile/renedepaula.bsky.social meu twitter http://twitter.com/renedepaula aqui está o link para a caneca no Colab55:  https://www.colab55.com/@rene/mugs/caneca-rarissima  para xs raríssimxs internacionais, aqui está nossa caneca no Zazzle: https://www.zazzle.com/radinhos_anniversary_mug-168129613992374138 minha lojinha no Colab55 (posters, camisetas, adesivos, sacolas):  http://bit.ly/renecolab meu livro novo na lojinha!  blue notes https://www.ko-fi.com/s/550d7d5e22 meu livro solo https://www.ko-fi.com/s/0f990d61c7  o adesivo do radinho!!!   http://bit.ly/rarissimos  minha lojinha no ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/renedepaula/shop muito obrigado pelos cafés!!!  http://ko-fi.com/renedepaula

La Mesa Verde - 27.01.2025 - Nuevas áreas protegidas y el rol del SNAP by En Perspectiva

La Mesa Verde - Más de 15.000 de colmenas de abejas afectadas en Uruguay by En Perspectiva

La Mesa Verde - El tránsito y los vehículos como fuente de contaminación sonora by En Perspectiva

***Please help with a donation for the Great Food Giveaway #6 Venmo: @Eric-Zeitunian - CashApp: $EricZeitunian - PayPal: Search Eric Zane Show LLC******Feminine Hygiene product Wish List: https://a.co/7QY3Grs***Note: "Act 2" will be a separate published audio podcast.*Check out EZ's morning radio show "The InZane Asylum Q100 Michigan with Eric Zane" Click here*Get a FREE 7 day trial to Patreon to "try it out."*Watch the show live, daily at 8AM EST on Twitch! Please click here to follow the page.Email the show on the Shoreliners Striping inbox: eric@ericzaneshow.comTopics:*EZ breaks down Veterans Day.*EZ updates The Great Food Giveaway.*Big Fraud Book Club is back tonight!*EZ Elon Musk trillion dollars fun facts.*More on The Fraud Bus being re-commissioned.*EZ would like to visit Mesa Verde. Click to check it out.*Trump's claim of gas less than $2 a gallon is nonsense.Sponsors:Impact Power Sports, Kuiper Tree Care, Frank Fuss / My Policy Shop Insurance, Kings Room Barbershop, Shoreliners Striping, Ervines Auto Repair Grand Rapids Hybrid & EV,Interested in advertising? Email eric@ericzaneshow.com and let me design a marketing plan for you.Contact: Shoreliners Striping inbox eric@ericzaneshow.comDiscord LinkEZSP TikTokSubscribe to my YouTube channelHire me on Cameo!Tshirts available herePlease subscribe, rate & write a review on Apple Podcastspatreon.com/ericzaneInstagram: ericzaneshowTwitterOur Sponsors:* Check out Secret Nature and use my code ZANE for a great deal: https://secretnature.com* Check out Uncommon Goods: https://uncommongoods.com/zaneSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-eric-zane-show-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

La Mesa Verde - Martes 28.10.2025 - El agujero de ozono by En Perspectiva

En una nueva edición de La Mesa Verde hablamos sobre la citricultura en Uruguay: Naranjas, mandarinas, limones, pomelos… ¿Qué variedades hay? ¿Cuánto exportamos a otros países? ¿Cómo es el proceso desde que se cosechan los cítricos hasta que se consumen? Y otro punto importante: Al momento de elegir estas frutas, ¿valoramos demasiado la estética por encima del alimento?

In this episode of Exploring the National Parks, we are exploring the incredible Native American sites you can visit through the National Park Service.  From massive cliff dwellings to life-sized petroglyphs, we're diving into some of our favorite places to experience the deep history and cultural richness of the ancestral Puebloan people and beyond. Whether you've visited before or are looking to expand your bucket list, this episode is packed with inspiration to help you connect with these sacred, awe-inspiring sites across the Southwest. Join us as we discuss… The remote Canyonlands trail that leads to some of the largest, most mysterious rock art in North America A cliffside city frozen in time, and the tours that take you right into it The hidden New Mexico site where ladders lead to ancient carved homes in the cliffs The massive ruins of a forgotten cultural hub that rival anything else in the Southwest We hope you enjoyed exploring some of the most meaningful Native American sites the National Park Service helps protect. These places are truly amazing, and we hope you get to get out there and explore yourself!  Today's task: If you've been to any of these places or have one to recommend, we'd love to hear from you! Share your experiences over on our share them on the Dirt In My Shoes Facebook or Instagram pages, and let's build a community list of must-see stops!  Are you looking for more Native American cultural sites protected by the National Park Service? Check out their comprehensive list here! For a full summary of this episode, links to things we mentioned, and free resources and deals to get your trip-planning started, check out the full show notes. Getting ready for a trip to Mesa Verde, Canyonlands, or another national park? Check out our free resources, including more podcast episodes, a master reservation list, a national park checklist, and a trip packing list to keep your trip planning stress-free! Mesa Verde Podcast Episodes Canyonlands Free Resources  Master Reservation List National Park Checklist National Park Trip Packing List

La Mesa Verde - Expedición Uruguay Sub200 - Martes 26.08.2025 by En Perspectiva

In this special episode of The Archaeology Show, we're mapping out our ultimate bucket list of archaeological and historical sites that we have not yet visited. We'll recap some of the amazing places we have been lucky enough to experience, and then we will each share our top 10 with the other. We are not discussing this ahead of time, so will there be crossover? Tune in to see!From the towering pyramids of Giza to the cliff dwellings of Mesa Verde, we highlight destinations rich in history, mystery, and cultural significance. Whether you're planning your next trip or dreaming from your couch, join us as we explore the world's most fascinating ruins and the stories that make them unforgettable.Chris's ListThe Pyramids of Giza (Egypt)**Petra (Jordan)**Great Wall of ChinaTerra Cotta Army (China)*Göbekli Tepe (Turkey)**Machu Picchu (Peru)Nazca Lines (Peru)*Rapa Nui (Chile)Angkor Wat (Cambodia)Mesa Verde (Colorado)*Rachel's ListThe Pyramids of Giza (Egypt)**Petra (Jordan)**The Colosseum (Rome, Italy)Teotihuacan (Mexico)Göbekli Tepe (Turkey)**Terra cotta Army (China)*Notre Dame (Paris, France)Mesa Verde (Colorado, USA)*Nazca Lines (Peru)*Hagia Sophia (Istanbul, Turkey)** Same site in the same position on our lists** Same site, different position on our lists.ContactChris Websterchris@archaeologypodcastnetwork.comRachel Rodenrachel@unraveleddesigns.comRachelUnraveled (Instagram)ArchPodNetAPN Website: https://www.archpodnet.comAPN Discord: https://discord.com/invite/CWBhb2T2edAPN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnetAPN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnetAPN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnetAPN ShopAffiliatesMotion

Robert Fortunato and his wife needed to expand their home in Redondo Beach, California to welcome a child and incorporate two home offices, and they wanted it to be healthy and sustainable. After traveling the world, Robert wanted to incorporate best practices.. like the clever and complete use of materials in island countries demonstrated with coconuts in Sri Lanka, to passive solar design akin to Mesa Verde in Colorado, and non-toxic building material use in Denmark. As he and his wife planned their home remodel, Robert was struck by the black soot on his windowsills, and struck even more so when he learned that his own home was producing the soot... from cooking, water heating, his furnace, and his garaged car. He certainly didn't want that for his family. After employing a reputable green architect to create a healthy home, and having his vision suffer disappointment, Robert questioned authority. What he dubbed his "impossible home" became a labor of love, community involvement, and a demonstration of what is possible. Robert is a musician from Philadelphia. His dance band there became highly popular because Robert bought an early Mac computer and learned to market his gigs. His tenacity and entrepreneurial spirit earned him a spot at the Wharton School at University of Pennsylvania where he studied business. When he met Monica, who became his wife, they travelled the world visiting 20 countries with their eyes wide open. They learned many lessons that they wanted to incorporate in their home... and they did.The architect was fired. Robert used Sketch-Up to design a home with a major overhang to keep out the summer heat and keep the home cool. He ditched natural gas in favor of solar and an all-electric home. He turned to his community and found an abundance of talented folks all keen on pitching in. Fully 97% of the materials in the old home were repurposed, he cut his energy use by 70%, solar produced enough energy for his home and car, and he capped his natural gas line. All told, the project engaged 70 collaborators, and at its conclusion he'd had 5,000 visitors to witness his Living Building Challenge certified home, it garnered lots of press and a Los Angeles County green leadership award.Robert today runs ForStrategy Consulting, a firm that coaches leadership and innovation. He notes that he likes to "coach clients out of dark places!" In addition to playing his drums, being a band leader, and continuing his passion for music.. he provides green home and building decarbonization consulting for Southern California Edison and others... proving that if you have a vision, and you pursue it diligently, you can serve yourself and others with a healthy home and fulfilling lifestyle.

In this special episode of The Archaeology Show, we're mapping out our ultimate bucket list of archaeological and historical sites that we have not yet visited. We'll recap some of the amazing places we have been lucky enough to experience, and then we will each share our top 10 with the other. We are not discussing this ahead of time, so will there be crossover? Tune in to see!From the towering pyramids of Giza to the cliff dwellings of Mesa Verde, we highlight destinations rich in history, mystery, and cultural significance. Whether you're planning your next trip or dreaming from your couch, join us as we explore the world's most fascinating ruins and the stories that make them unforgettable.Chris's ListThe Pyramids of Giza (Egypt)**Petra (Jordan)**Great Wall of ChinaTerra Cotta Army (China)*Göbekli Tepe (Turkey)**Machu Picchu (Peru)Nazca Lines (Peru)*Rapa Nui (Chile)Angkor Wat (Cambodia)Mesa Verde (Colorado)*Rachel's ListThe Pyramids of Giza (Egypt)**Petra (Jordan)**The Colosseum (Rome, Italy)Teotihuacan (Mexico)Göbekli Tepe (Turkey)**Terra cotta Army (China)*Notre Dame (Paris, France)Mesa Verde (Colorado, USA)*Nazca Lines (Peru)*Hagia Sophia (Istanbul, Turkey)** Same site in the same position on our lists** Same site, different position on our lists.ContactChris Websterchris@archaeologypodcastnetwork.comRachel Rodenrachel@unraveleddesigns.comRachelUnraveled (Instagram)ArchPodNetAPN Website: https://www.archpodnet.comAPN Discord: https://discord.com/invite/CWBhb2T2edAPN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnetAPN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnetAPN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnetAPN ShopAffiliatesMotion

En una nueva edición de La Mesa Verde hablamos sobre reciclaje de aceite. ¿Qué hacemos con el aceite de cocina una vez que ya no sirve? ¿Cómo evitar que contamine y transformarlo en un recurso útil? ¿Qué experiencias hay en Uruguay?

In this episode, I'm joined by Carole Graham and Laura Brumbaugh, two archaeologists from Mesa Verde National Park. We explore their roles within the park, what makes the Mesa Verde region such a culturally rich and significant place, and the deep, continuous human history that has unfolded here over thousands of years.I'm incredibly grateful to have had both Carole and Laura on the podcast. Their knowledge and passion for archaeology—and for sharing the stories of the people who lived in this remarkable landscape—make this a special conversation.______________Follow us on social!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/safetravelspodTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@safetravelspodYouTube: youtube.com/@safetravelspodSafetravelspod.com   

A man on the run lures a Mesa Verde National Park visitor to a tragic end and then flees to the West Coast only to find that the consequences of his lawlessness have followed his trail from the mesas of Colorado to the coast of California.View source material and photos for this episode at: parkpredators.com/the-rest-stop Park Predators is an audiochuck production. Connect with us on social media:Instagram: @parkpredators | @audiochuckTwitter: @ParkPredators | @audiochuckFacebook: /ParkPredators  | /audiochuckllcTikTok:  @audiochuck

Satchel Martin is an Indigenous Ranger Intern at Mesa Verde National Park. Satchel is a part of the Hopi Tribe of Arizona and shares with us his special and personal perspective of the ancestral history and significance of Mesa Verde. I am so thankful for this conversation with Satchel. His personal stories and experiences are so special to listen to. His insight will help lead people towards a more connected and respectful experience when they're visiting Mesa Verde National Park.______________Follow us on social!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/safetravelspodTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@safetravelspodYouTube: youtube.com/@safetravelspodSafetravelspod.com   

Dalton Dorrell is a Supervisory Park Ranger that focuses on Education, Community Outreach, and Interpretation at Mesa Verde National Park. In our conversation together, Ranger Dalton and I chatted through Mesa Verde's incredible history, tips and tricks for visitors, important safety rules and a whole lot more. Dalton is from south-western Colorado and has dreamed of working at Mesa Verde since he was a little kid. He even chased his dreams as a 12-year-old volunteering with the US Forest Service. I had an amazing time chatting with Ranger Dalton, he's a special human who cares deeply about our National Parks. ______________Follow us on social!Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/safetravelspodTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@safetravelspodYouTube: youtube.com/@safetravelspodSafetravelspod.com   

En La Mesa Verde pusimos el foco en la reparación de aparatos eléctricos y electrónicos (es decir, todo aparato que se enchufe o funcione a batería, desde heladeras y aires acondicionados a celulares, cargadores, secadores de pelo). ¿Qué hace que estos residuos sean particulares? ¿Qué podemos hacer los consumidores para extender la vida útil de los aparatos y generar menos desperdicios? ¿Qué está haciendo el Ministerio de Ambiente para promover la reparación?

This week on “Out of Office: A Travel Podcast,” the boys share their insider knowledge on how to lock down fantastic trips and deals even if you're a little late to the party. Hidden National Parks, secret city hideaways, and booking schemes await! Things We Talked About on Today's Episode: Julie Klausner https://foreverdogpodcasts.com/podcasts/how-was-your-week/  Boop the Musical https://boopthemusical.com/  North Cascades https://www.nps.gov/noca/index.htm  Isle Royale https://www.nps.gov/isro/index.htm  Great Sand Dunes https://www.nps.gov/grsa/index.htm  Mesa Verde https://www.nps.gov/meve/index.htm  Badlands https://www.nps.gov/badl/index.htm  Rapid City Sculptor episode https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/city-of-presidents-with-james-van-nuys/id1438098925?i=1000451011128  Canyonlands https://www.nps.gov/cany/index.htm  Bear Ears National Monument https://www.blm.gov/visit/bears-ears-national-monument  Great State Parks episode https://outofofficepod.com/podcast/episode-43-state-parks-with-peter-kujawinski/  Great State Parks NYT article https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/21/travel/state-parks-visit-colorado-nc-florida.html   Google Flights “Explore” function https://www.google.com/travel/explore  Skyscanner “Explore Everywhere” function https://www.skyscanner.com/transport/flights-from/us/?adultsv2=1&cabinclass=economy&childrenv2=&ref=home&rtn=1&preferdirects=false&outboundaltsenabled=false&inboundaltsenabled=false&oym=2507&iym=2507  AirBNB Experiences announcement https://news.airbnb.com/airbnb-2025-summer-release/  The Walker Library of the History of Human Imagination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Library_of_the_History_of_Human_Imagination 

Welcome to #SundaysatTCAB! We are excited to have Pastor Tiago share an update of all the Lord is doing at Clay Vessels Learning Center at The Church at Mesa Verde. God is always at work, doing new things amongst us. He wants us to join Him in His work and experience the abundant life through kingdom building. Where is He asking you to jump in? New to The Church at Bushland? Tell us a little about you and receive a personal note from Pastor Jeff. First Time Guest: https://www.thechurchatbushland.com/guestform?location=livestream How can we pray for you? Submit your prayer request here: https://www.thechurchatbushland.com/prayerrequest Subscribe to get the latest videos: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheChurchAtBushland We also have our newest channel, @TCABClips, with sermon and worship highlights and short content from Digging for the Truth. Subscribe, turn on notifications, and never miss an episode! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6VflV8HJUd-6vTX9CSJRKw Listen while you work, exercise, or whatever keeps you busy: Apple Podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/channel/the-church-at-bushland/id6442779332 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/077EsZwp6Y7pPhv7X8mXEY?si=893d09eeae9142d5 Support the online ministry at TCAB. Join the giving team today! https://www.thechurchatbushland.com/giving Download the TCAB App today! iOS - https://apps.apple.com/us/app/the-church-at-bushland/id1495461805 Android - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kidunottech.culminate.tcab Connect with The Church at Bushland: Website | https://thechurchatbushland.com Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/thechurchatbushland/ Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/thechurchatbushland/

In the 1960s, a deep anxiety set in as one thing became seemingly clear: We were headed toward population catastrophe. Paul Ehrlich's “The Population Bomb” and “The Limits to Growth,” written by the Club of Rome, were just two publications warning of impending starvation due to simply too many humans on the earth.As the population ballooned year by year, it would simply be impossible to feed everyone. Demographers and environmentalists alike held their breath and braced for impact.Except that we didn't starve. On the contrary, we were better fed than ever.In his article in The New Atlantis, Charles C. Mann explains that agricultural innovation — from improved fertilization and irrigation to genetic modification — has brought global hunger to a record low.Today on Faster, Please! — The Podcast, I chat with Mann about the agricultural history they didn't teach you in school.Mann is a science journalist who has worked as a correspondent for The Atlantic, Science, and Wired magazines, and whose work has been featured in many other major publications. He is also the author of 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus and1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created, as well as The Wizard and the Prophet: Two Remarkable Scientists and Their Dueling Visions to Shape Tomorrow's World.In This Episode* Intro to the Agricultural Revolution (2:04)* Water infrastructure (13:11)* Feeding the masses (18:20)* Indigenous America (25:20)Below is a lightly edited transcript of our conversation. Intro to the Agricultural Revolution (2:04)I don't think that people realize that the fact that most people on earth, almost the average person on earth, can feed themselves is a novel phenomenon. It's something that basically wasn't true since as far back as we know.Pethokoukis: What got my attention was a couple of pieces that you've worked on for The New Atlantis magazine looking at the issue of how modern Americans take for granted the remarkable systems and infrastructure that provide us comfort, safety, and a sense of luxury that would've been utterly unimaginable even to the wealthiest people of a hundred years ago or 200 years ago.Let me start off by asking you: Does it matter that we do take that for granted and that we also kind of don't understand how our world works?Mann: I would say yes, very much. It matters because these systems undergird the prosperity that we have, the good fortune that we have to be alive now, but they're always one generation away from collapse. If they aren't maintained, upgraded and modernized, they'll fall apart. They just won't stand there. So we have to be aware of this. We have to keep our eye on the ball, otherwise we won't have these things.The second thing is that, if we don't know how our society works, as citizens, we're simply not going to make very good choices about what to do with that society. I feel like both sides in our current political divide are kind of taking their eye off the ball. It's important to have good roads, it's important to have clean water, it's important to have a functioning public health system, it's important to have an agricultural system that works. It doesn't really matter who you are. And if we don't keep these things going, life will be unnecessarily bad for a lot of people, and that's just crazy to do.Is this a more recent phenomenon? If I would've asked people 50 years ago, “Explain to me how our infrastructure functions, how we get water, how we get electricity,” would they have a better idea? Is it just because things are more complicated today that we have no idea how our food gets here or why when we turn the faucet, clean water comes out?The answer is “yes” in a sort of trivial sense, in that many more people were involved in producing food, a much greater percentage of the population was involved in producing food 50 years ago. The same thing was true for the people who were building infrastructure 50 years ago.But I also think it's generally true that people's parents saw the change and knew it. So that is very much the case and, in a sense, I think we're victims of our own success. These kinds of things have brought us so much prosperity that we can afford to do crazy things like become YouTube influencers, or podcasters, or freelance writers. You don't really have any connection with how the society goes because we're sort of surfing on this wave of luxury that our ancestors bequeathed to us.I don't know how much time you spend on social media, Charles — I'm sure I spend too much — but I certainly sense that many people today, younger people especially, don't have a sense of how someone lived 50 years ago, 100 years ago, and there was just a lot more physical suffering. And certainly, if you go back far enough, you could not take for granted that you would have tomatoes in your supermarket year round, that you would have water in the house and that water would be clean. What I found really interesting — you did a piece on food and a piece on water — in the food piece you note that, in the 1980s, that was a real turning point that the average person on earth had enough to eat all the time, and rather than becoming an issue of food production, it became an issue of distribution, of governance. I think most people would be surprised of that statistic even though it's 40 years old.I don't think that people realize that the fact that most people on earth, almost the average person on earth, can feed themselves is a novel phenomenon. It's something that basically wasn't true since as far back as we know. That's this enormous turning point, and there are many of these turning points. Obviously, the introduction of antibiotics for . . . public health, which is another one of these articles they're going to be working on . . .Just about 100 years ago today, when President Coolidge was [president], his son went to play tennis at the White House tennis courts, and because he was lazy, or it was fashionable, or something, he didn't put on socks. He got a blister on his toe, the toe got infected, and he died. 100 years ago, the president of the United States, who presumably had the best healthcare available to anybody in the world, was unable to save his beloved son when the son got a trivial blister that got infected. The change from that to now is mind boggling.You've written about the Agricultural Revolution and why the great fears 40 or 50 years ago of mass starvation didn't happen. I find that an endlessly interesting topic, both for its importance and for the fact it just seems to be so underappreciated to this day, even when it was sort of obvious to people who pay attention that something was happening, it still seemed not to penetrate the public consciousness. I wonder if you could just briefly talk to me about that revolution and how it happened.The question is, how did it go from “The Population Bomb” written in 1968, a huge bestseller, hugely influential, predicting that there is going to be hundreds of millions of people dying of mass starvation, followed by other equally impassioned, equally important warnings. There's one called “Famine, 1975!,” written a few years before, that predicted mass famines in 1975. There's “The Limits to Growth.” I went to college in the '70s and these were books that were on the curriculum, and they were regarded as contemporary classics, and they all proved to be wrong.The reason is that, although they were quite correct about the fact that the human race was reproducing at that time faster than ever before, they didn't realize two things: The first is that as societies get more affluent, and particularly as societies get more affluent and give women more opportunities, birth rates decline. So that this was obviously, if you looked at history, going to be a temporary phenomenon of whatever length it was be, but it was not going to be infinite.The second was there was this enormous effort spurred by this guy named Norman Borlaug, but with tons of other people involved, to take modern science and apply it to agriculture, and that included these sort of three waves of innovation. Now, most innovation is actually just doing older technologies better, which is a huge source of progress, and the first one was irrigation. Irrigation has been around since forever. It's almost always been done badly. It's almost always not been done systematically. People started doing it better. They still have a lot of problems with it, but it's way better, and now 40 percent, roughly, of the crops in the world that are produced are produced by irrigation.The second is the introduction of fertilizer. There's two German scientists, Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch, who essentially developed the ways of taking fertilizer and making lots and lots of it in factories. I could go into more detail if you want, but that's the essential thing. This had never been done before, and suddenly cheap industrial fertilizer became available all over the world, and Vaclav Smil . . . he's sort of an environmental scientist of every sort, in Manitoba has calculated that roughly 40 percent of the people on earth today would not be alive if it wasn't for that.And then the third was the development of much better, much higher-yielding seeds, and that was the part that Norman Borlaug had done. These packaged together of irrigation fertilizer and seeds yielded what's been called the Green Revolution, doubled, tripled, or even quadrupled grain yields across the world, particularly with wheat and rice. The result is the world we live in today. When I was growing up, when you were growing up, your parents may have said to you, as they did me, Oh, eat your vegetables, there are kids that are starving in Asia.” Right? That was what was told and that was the story that was told in books like “The Population Bomb,” and now Asia's our commercial rival. When you go to Bangkok, that was a place that was hungry and now it's gleaming skyscrapers and so forth. It's all based on this fact that people are able to feed themselves through the combination of these three factors,That story, the story of mass-starvation that the Green Revolution irrigation prevented from coming true. I think a surprising number of people still think that story is relevant today, just as some people still think the population will be exploding when it seems clear it probably will not be exploding. It will rise, but then it's going to start coming down at some point this century. I think those messages just don't get through. Just like most people don't know Norm Borlaug, the Haber-Bosch process, which school kids should know. They don't know any of this. . . Borlaug won the Nobel Prize, right?Right. He won the Nobel Peace Prize. I'll tell you a funny story —I think he won it in the same year that “The Population Bomb” came out.It was just a couple years off. But you're right, the central point is right, and the funny thing is . . . I wrote another book a while back that talked about this and about the way environmentalists think about the world, and it's called the “Wizard and the Prophet” and Borlaug was the wizard of it. I thought, when I proposed it, that it would be easy. He was such an important guy, there'd be tons of biographies about him. And to this day, there isn't a real serious scholarly biography of the guy. This is a person who has done arguably more to change human life than any other person in the 20th century, certainly up in the top dozen or so. There's not a single serious biography of him.How can that be?It's because we're tremendously disconnected. It's a symptom of what I'm talking about. We're tremendously disconnected from these systems, and it's too bad because they're interesting! They're actually quite interesting to figure out: How do you get water to eight billion people? How do you get . . . It is a huge challenge, and some of the smartest people you've ever met are working on it every day, but they're working on it over here, and the public attention is over here.Water infrastructure (13:11). . . the lack of decent, clean, fresh water is the world's worst immediate environmental problem. I think people probably have some vague idea about agriculture, the Agricultural Revolution, how farming has changed, but I think, as you just referred to, the second half, water — utter mystery to people. Comes out of a pipe. The challenges of doing that in a rich country are hard. The challenges doing a country not so rich, also hard. Tell me what you find interesting about that topic.Well, whereas the story about agriculture is basically a good story: We've gotten better at it. We have a whole bunch of technical innovations that came in the 20th century and humankind is better off than ever before. With water, too, we are better off than ever before, but the maddening thing is we could be really well off because the technology is basically extremely old.There's a city, a very ancient city called Mohenjo-daro that I write about a bit in this article that was in essentially on the Pakistan-India border, 2600 BC. And they had a fully functioning water system that, in its basics, was no different than the water system that we have, or that London has, or that Paris has. So this is an ancient, ancient technology, yet we still have two billion people on the planet that don't have access to adequate water. In fact, even though we know how to do it, the lack of decent, clean, fresh water is the world's worst immediate environmental problem. And a small thing that makes me nuts is that climate change — which is real and important — gets a lot of attention, but there are people dying of not getting good water now.On top of it, even in rich countries like us, our water system is antiquated. The great bulk of it was built in the '40s, '50s, and '60s, and, like any kind of physical system, it ages, and every couple years, various engineering bodies, water bodies, the EPA, and so forth puts out a report saying, “Hey, we really have to fix the US water system and the numbers keep mounting up.” And Democrats, Republicans, they all ignore this.Who is working on the water issue in poorer countries?There you have a very ad hoc group of people. The answer is part of it's the Food and Agricultural Organization because most water in most countries is used for irrigation to grow food. You also have the World Health Organization, these kinds of bodies. You have NGOs working on it. What you don't have in those countries like our country is the government taking responsibility for coordinating something that's obviously in the national interest.So you have these things where, very periodically — a government like China has done this, Jordan has done this, Bolivia has done this, countries all over the world have done this — and they say, “Okay, we haven't been able to provide freshwater. Let's bring in a private company.” And the private company then invests all this money in infrastructure, which is expensive. Then, because it's a private company, it has to make that money back, and so it charges people for a lot of money for this, and the people are very unhappy because suddenly they're paying a quarter of their income for water, which is what I saw in Southwest China: water riots because people are paying so much for water.In other words, one of the things that government can do is sort of spread these costs over everybody, but instead they concentrate it on the users, Almost universally, these privatization efforts have led to tremendous political unhappiness because the government has essentially shifted responsibility for coordinating and doing these things and imposed a cost on a narrow minority of the users.Are we finally getting on top of the old water infrastructure in this country? It seems like during the Biden administration they had a big infrastructure bill. Do you happen to know if we are finally getting that system upgraded?Listen, I will be the only person who probably ever interviews you who's actually had to fix a water main as a summer job. I spent [it at] my local Public Works Department where we'd have to fix water mains, and this was a number of years ago, and even a number of years ago, those pipes were really, really old. It didn't take much for them to get a main break.I'm one of those weird people who is bothered by this. All I can tell you is we have a lot of aging infrastructure. The last estimate that I've seen came before this sort of sudden jerky rise of construction costs, which, if you're at all involved in building, is basically all the people in the construction industry talk about. At that point, the estimate was that it was $1.2 trillion to fix the infrastructure that we have in the United States. I am sure it is higher now. I am delighted that the Biden people passed this infrastructure — would've been great if they passed permitting reform and a couple of other things to make it easier to spend the money, but okay. I would like to believe that the Trump people would take up the baton and go on this.Feeding the masses (18:20)I do worry that the kind of regulations, and rules, and ideas that we put into place to try and make agriculture more like this picture that we have in our head will end up inadvertently causing suffering for the people who are struggling.We're still going to have another two billion people, maybe, on this earth. Are we going to be able to feed them all?Yeah, I think that there's no question. The question is what we're going to be able to feed them? Are we going to be able to feed them all, filet mignon and truffled . . . whatever they put truffle oil on, and all that? Not so sure about that.All organic vegetables.At the moment, that seems really implausible, and there's a sort of fundamental argument going on here. There's a lot of people, again, both right and left, who are sort of freaked out by the scale that modern agriculture operates on. You fly over the middle-west and you see all those circles of center-pivot irrigation, they plowed under, in the beginning of the 20th century, 100 million acres of prairie to produce all that. And it's done with enormous amounts of capital, and it was done also partly by moving people out so that you could have this enormous stuff. The result is it creates a system that . . . doesn't match many people's vision of the friendly family farmer that they grew up with. It's a giant industrial process and people are freaked out by the scale. They don't trust these entities, the Cargills and the ADMs, and all these huge companies that they see as not having their interests at heart.It's very understandable. I live in a small town, we have a farm down there, and Jeremy runs it, and I'm very happy to see Jeremy. There's no Jeremy at Archer Daniels Midland. So the result is that there's a big revulsion against that, and people want to downsize the scale, and they point to very real environmental problems that big agriculture has, and they say that that is reason for this. The great problem is that in every single study that I am aware of, the sort of small, local farms don't produce as much food per acre or per hectare as the big, soulless industrial processes. So if you're concerned about feeding everybody, that's something you have to really weigh in your head, or heavy in your heart.That sort of notion of what a farm should look like and what good food is, that kind of almost romantic notion really, to me, plays into the sort of anti-growth or the degrowth people who seemed to be saying that farms could only be this one thing — probably they don't even remember those farms anymore — that I saw in a storybook. It's like a family farm, everything's grown local, not a very industrial process, but you're talking about a very different world. Maybe that's a world they want, but I don't know if that's a world you want if you're a poor person in this world.No, and like I said, I love going to the small farm next to us and talking to Jeremy and he says, “Oh look, we've just got these tomatoes,” it's great, but I have to pay for that privilege. And it is a privilege because Jeremy is barely making it and charging twice as much as the supermarket. There's no economies of scale for him. He still has to buy all the equipment, but he's putting it over 20 acres instead of 2000 acres. In addition, it's because it's this hyper-diverse farm — which is wonderful; they get to see the strawberries, and the tomatoes, and all the different things — it means he has to hire much more labor than it would be if he was just specializing in one thing. So his costs are inevitably much, much higher, and, therefore, I have to pay a lot more to keep him going. That's fine for me; I'm a middle-class person, I like food, this can be my hobby going there.I'd hate to have somebody tell me it's bad, but it's not a system that is geared for people who are struggling. There are just a ton of people all over the world who are struggling. They're better off than they were 100 years ago, but they're still struggling. I do worry that the kind of regulations, and rules, and ideas that we put into place to try and make agriculture more like this picture that we have in our head will end up inadvertently causing suffering for the people who are struggling.To make sure everybody can get fed in the future, do we need a lot more innovation?Innovation is always good. I would say that we do, and the kinds of innovation we need are not often what people imagine. For example, it's pretty clear that parts of the world are getting drier, and therefore irrigation is getting more difficult. The American Southwest is a primary candidate, and you go to the Safford Valley, which I did a few years ago — the Safford Valley is in southeast Arizona and it's hotter than hell there. I went there and it's 106 degrees and there's water from the Colorado River, 800 miles away, being channeled there, and they're growing Pima cotton. Pima cotton is this very good fine cotton that they use to make fancy clothes, and it's a great cash crop for farmers, but growing it involves channeling water from the Colorado 800 miles, and then they grow it by what's called flood irrigation, which is where you just fill the field with an inch of water. I was there actually to see an archeologist who's a water engineer, and I said to him, “Gee, it's hot! How much that water is evaporated?” And he said, “Oh, all of it.”So we need to think about that kind of thing if the Colorado is going to run out of water, which it is now. There's ways you can do it, you can possibly genetically modify cotton to use less water. You could drip irrigation, which is a much more efficient form of irrigation, it's readily available, but it's expensive. So you could try to help farmers do that. I think if you cut the soft costs, which is called the regulatory costs of farming, you might be able to pay for it in that way. That would be one type of innovation. Another type of thing you could do is to do a different kind of farming which is called civil pastoral systems, where you grow tree crops and then you grow cattle underneath, and that uses dramatically less water. It's being done in Sonora, just across the border and the tree crops — trees are basically wild. People don't breed them because it takes so long, but we now have the tools to breed them, and so you could make highly productive trees with cattle underneath and have a system that produces a lot of calories or a lot of good stuff. That's all the different kinds of innovation that we could do. Just some of the different kinds of innovation we could do and all would help.Indigenous America (25:20)Part of the reason I wrote these things is that I realized it's really interesting and I didn't learn anything about it in school.Great articles in The New Atlantis, big fan of “Wizard and the Prophet,” but I'm going to take one minute and ask you about your great books talking about the story of the indigenous peoples of the Americas. If I just want to travel in the United States and I'm interested in finding out more about Native Americans in the United States, where would you tell me to go?One of my favorite places just it's so amazing, is Chaco Canyon, and that's in the Four Corners area — that whole Four Corners area is quite incredible — and Chaco Canyon is a sign that native people could build amazing stuff, and native people could be crazy, in my opinion. It's in the middle of nowhere, it has no water, and for reasons that are probably spiritual and religious, they built an enormous number of essentially castles in this canyon, and they're incredible.The biggest one, Pueblo Bonito as it's called now, it's like 800 rooms. They're just enormous. And you can go there, and you can see these places, and you can just walk around, and it is incredible. You drive up a little bit to Mesa Verde and there's hundreds of these incredible cliff dwellings. What seems to have happened — I'm going to put this really informally and kind of jokingly to you, not the way that an archeologist would talk about it or I would write about it, but what looks like it happened is that the Chaco Canyon is this big canyon, and on the good side that gets the southern exposure is all these big houses. And then the minions and the hoi polloi lived on the other side, and it looks like, around 800, 900, they just got really tired of serving the kings and they had something like a democratic revolution, and they just left, most of them, and founded the Pueblos, which is these intensely democratic self-governing bodies that are kind of like what Thomas Jefferson thought the United States should be.Then it's like all the doctors, and the lawyers, and the MBAs, and the rich guys went up to Mesa Verde and they started off their own little kingdoms and they all fought with each other. So you have these crazy cliff dwellings where it's impossible to get in and there's hundreds of people living in these niches in these cliffs, and then that blew up too. So you could see history, democracy, and really great architecture all in one place.If someone asked me for my advice about changing the curriculum in school, one, people would leave school knowing who the heroes of progress and heroes of the Agricultural Revolution were. And I think they'd also know a lot more about pre-Columbian history of the Americas. I think they should know about it but I also think it's just super interesting, though of course you've brought it to life in a beautiful way.Thank you very much, and I couldn't agree with you more. Part of the reason I wrote these things is that I realized it's really interesting and I didn't learn anything about it in school.On sale everywhere The Conservative Futurist: How To Create the Sci-Fi World We Were PromisedFaster, Please! is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. 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Winter is a crucial time of year for both the landscape and humans of Mesa Verde. While this is generally a time for rest, reflection, and community, the people living at Mesa Verde would not have been sitting idly by waiting for spring. Picuris Pueblo: www.visitpicuris.com Zuni Pueblo: www.ashiwi-museum.org Acoma Pueblo: www.acomaskycity.org Episode sources: www.mesa-verde-voices.org/episodes/s6e4-winter

As the autumn winds bring cooler weather and vibrant colors to the Mesa Verde landscape, this seasonal transition also brings a time of harvest, celebration of the growing season, and preparation for the long winter months ahead. Picuris Pueblo: www.visitpicuris.com Zuni Pueblo: www.ashiwi-museum.org Acoma Pueblo: www.acomaskycity.org Episode sources: www.mesa-verde-voices.org/episodes/s6e3-fall

In this episode of Exploring the National Parks, we are exploring the beauty of Colorado's National Parks! We're sharing an epic 12-day road trip itinerary that takes you through four incredible parks: Rocky Mountain, Great Sand Dunes, Black Canyon of the Gunnison, and Mesa Verde. We'll be hitting the highlights of each park, sharing tips for planning your trip, and even throwing in a fun van life twist with a curated mixtape of Colorado-based artists. So, buckle up and get ready for an unforgettable adventure! Here's what we will cover:  The perfect road trip route for hitting must-see parks and hidden gems Highlights of each park so you know exactly what to expect and what not to miss! The fascinating gateway towns that you can explore on your way Our best tips for maximizing your time in each park so you don't miss a single breathtaking view Important things that you'll want to keep in mind to make the most of your trip We hope you will enjoy hearing our ultimate itinerary for these four gorgeous Colorado national parks! If you need any help planning your trip, make sure you head over to DirtInMyShoes.com and check out our park itineraries!  For your task for today, head over to the Dirt In My Shoes Facebook or Instagram page and let us know which of these Colorado parks you are most excited to explore!  For a full summary of this episode, links to things we mentioned, and free resources/deals to get your trip planning started, check out the full show notes.

In season 6 we'll be talking about... the seasons.  We'll be exploring the Mesa Verde landscape as it transforms throughout the year - from how the plants, animals, and weather change, to how the lives of ancestral people would have shifted alongside these changes in the natural world.  And finally we'll hear about some big changes coming to the museum at Mesa Verde National Park. Episodes will be released weekly starting on the Spring Equinox - March 20th.

Introducing Our New Studio Sculptures with Joe Cajero Joe Cajero, a member of the Native American, Jemez Pueblo in New Mexico, is a fine artist and award-winning sculptor. His website is https://cajerofineart.com/ Here he explains aspects of the Pueblo Indian heritage, referring to the historical antecedents in Mesa Verde and Chaco Canyon. He describes his … Continue reading "Introducing Our New Studio Sculptures with Joe Cajero"

Jose Ruben, activista espiritual con El Movimiento de Integridad Humana, viene al podcast para discutir sus experiencias de detención en Mesa Verde y el Golden State Annex y porque se sumó a las huelgas de hambre y labor con otra gente detenida. Jose comparte como COVID-19 se desarrolló en los centros de detención, como ICE los forzó a trabajar para mantener los centros limpios, y detalla las condiciones terribles que inspiraron las huelgas de hambre y labor. Para aprender más sobre las huelgas de hambre y labor, visite: www.ccijustice.orgPara apoyar a Radio Cachimbona, suscribase al Patreon y recibirá acceso al #litreview-- un club de libros para Cachimbonas: https://patreon.com/radiocachimbona?utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLinkSiga @radiocachimbona en Instagram, Twitter, y X

Gustavo, a Salvadoran-American organizer and leader of the hunger and labor strikes occurring in the Mesa Verde and Golden State Annex immigration detention facilities since 2022, joins the podcast to discuss the terrible conditions that led to these efforts. Gustavo shares the myriad ways ICE regularly violates its own detention standards, what gives him hope while detained, and what the strikers are demanding: that ICE terminate its contract with GSA and Mesa Verde. To learn more about the hunger and labor strikes and how to support the immigrants engaging in them: www.ccijustice.orgTo support the podcast, become a patron at: https://patreon.com/radiocachimbona?utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLinkFollow @radiocachimbona on Instagram, X, and Facebook

Join us as we dive into the story of Kaya and his Anasazi family who reside in the ancient cliff dwellings of Mesa Verde. This episode explores the daily life, traditions, and wisdom of the Anasazi people, as seen through the eyes of young Kaya. From the architecture of their homes to a tribal ceremony under the stars, we'll uncover how the Anasazi thrived in their unique environment.

Today's stories include life saving butterflies, bobcat guardians, hotdog man rescues, baby trail snacks, puke curses, angel friends, madness at Mesa Verde and shitty situations. Outsiders Only bonus stories available for Patreon and Apple Subscribers! We love our National Parks and we know you do too but when you're out there, remember to enjoy the view but watch your back. Please take a moment to rate and subscribe from wherever you're listening to NPAD! Become part of our Outsider family on Patreon  or Apple Subscriptions to gain access to ad-free episodes, bonus content, and more. Follow our socials Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. To share a Trail Tale, suggest a story, access merch, and browse our book recommendations - head over to our website. Thank you so much to our partners, check them out! Quince: Use our link to get free shipping and 365-day returns. IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping. 3 Day Blinds:  For their buy 1 get 1 50% off deal, head to 3DayBlinds.com/NPAD. BetterHelp: National Park After Dark is sponsored by BetterHelp. Get 10% off.