Podcast appearances and mentions of Robert Lewis

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Todd Wilson, co-founder of Exponential and a leader at Multipliers, where he helps churches and ministry leaders pursue multiplication and greater Kingdom impact. Todd has spent decades studying church planting, disciple-making, and movements, and his latest book, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward, explores the evolution of the American church growth movement and what it may mean for the future. Are churches working harder while reaching fewer people? Have our systems become better at producing activity than disciples? Todd challenges leaders to examine the operating system beneath modern church ministry and consider what needs to change if we want to see true reproduction and multiplication. We have a disciple-making problem. // For years, Todd has championed the goal of seeing more churches reproduce. Research once showed that fewer than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing, and while that number has improved, multiplication remains rare. But Todd believes church planting is ultimately an outcome of a deeper issue: most churches do not have a functional culture of disciple-making. If disciples aren’t reproducing disciples, churches will struggle to reproduce churches. Reproduction has to become generational. // Multiplication begins when reproduction continues beyond the first generation. One disciple makes another disciple, who then makes another, and the process keeps going. The same is true with churches. A church plants a church, which plants another church, which plants another. Once reproduction moves across multiple generations, addition becomes multiplication and the potential for movement begins to emerge. The church growth system has slowly changed. // Todd’s research traces roughly 75 years of church growth history, beginning with missionary Donald McGavran. McGavran originally studied why some churches on the mission field grew while others did not and developed principles aimed at helping missionaries reach more people. Over time, those ideas moved into the American church and blended with seeker-sensitive ministry, the megachurch movement, purpose-driven strategies, multisite, church planting networks, and other innovations. Much good came from these eras, but Todd believes the system gradually shifted toward institutional and programmatic growth. Good intentions can still create the wrong outcomes. // Todd is careful not to blame previous generations of church leaders. Many of the people who shaped modern church ministry were deeply evangelistic and sincerely wanted to reach people. Yet over time, the dominant definition of success increasingly became bigger attendance, larger programs, and expanding organizations. The unintended result is a consumer-driven model that can attract people effectively but struggles to produce disciples who reproduce. The angst leaders feel is real. // Todd hears a growing frustration among pastors: churches are spending more money, employing more staff, and working harder while seeing less fruit. Even churches that appear successful can sense something isn’t right beneath the surface. Todd believes much of that angst comes from trying to produce multiplication through an operating system designed primarily for addition. Naming the problem is an important first step toward changing it. Leaders must model what they want reproduced. // Todd believes transformation has to begin with senior leaders. If disciple-making is going to become the church’s growth engine, lead pastors and elders must personally participate in a simple, reproducible disciple-making process. Rather than merely preaching about discipleship, pastors should be able to name the people they are actively discipling and allow those relationships to shape the way they lead and teach. Keep the process simple and reproducible. // Whatever model a church chooses, Todd believes it must be simple enough for anyone to reproduce. The goal isn’t another sophisticated program but a way of following Jesus that can move naturally from person to person. The same approach should work for a lead pastor, a volunteer, or even a teenager. Simplicity increases the possibility of multiplication. Give the next generation permission to experiment. // Todd isn’t calling churches to abandon everything they’ve inherited. Instead, he encourages leaders to learn from the past, retain what is fruitful, and recognize that the current operating system may be losing effectiveness. Churches should create space for younger leaders to experiment, learn, and discover more reproducible approaches to disciple-making without being forced to preserve every assumption of previous generations. To learn more about Todd Wilson, visit multipliers.org. You can also download a free PDF or audio version of How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward at church-growth.org or pick up a paper copy on Amazon.com. In addition, check out Todd Wilson’s conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, and the interview A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have tuned in today for this reason, friends, lean in. um I want you to be a part of the conversation that we’re having today. The leader that we’ve got on the phone, on the I don’t know why say the phone because we have not been on phones for podcasts in, you know, 10 years, but on the line is really pressing on an issue that I know that a large portion, you know, almost 90 percent of the churches in the country need to be doing what we’re talking about today. And they’re not. And I really want you to lean in and learn from Todd Wilson. Rich Birch — If you do not know Todd Wilson, he has been the founding and co-founding member of a number of faith-based organizations, including Exponential and Multipliers. He has designed a number, and been a part of the launch of a multiple of national church planting networks. He’s currently a team member, or team leader at Multipliers and serves leaders and ministries who are pursuing multiplication, helping them develop vision and strategy ultimately for a 100 X impact. You know that I love that. Rich Birch — Recently, he wrote a book that caught my attention that I want to dive in on and kind of um unpack some of the core lessons for us today. It’s called, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. And it’s really looking at the whole conversation, American church growth movement. Todd, welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.Todd Wilson — Rich, it’s great to be here with you. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.Rich Birch — Yeah, me too. So why don’t we start with kind of giving us a picture of Multipliers and the work that you’re focused on now, kind of set the context for us.Todd Wilson — Sure. It’s probably good to have the context, you know, at at my core, my own personal calling. I am an entrepreneurial engineer at my core. I love to envision, envisage opportunities, seek strategies and opportunities of the future. And so where I like to do it anywhere, there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact. And that’s what gets me in trouble often is the, wherever there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact.Todd Wilson — When I came out of the marketplace over 25 years ago into full-time ministry, the most natural hundred X place for me, in addition to being in the local church was, was church planting. I was just drawn to church planting. I got to spend almost 20 years, ah you know, leading Exponential and co-founding there.Todd Wilson — And in recent years, really trying to get even more focused really on the 100x impact. I want to spend my next decade as I’m getting older here, you know, what’s it look like for every hour, for every dollar, for every bit of energy, to see 100x return.Todd Wilson — And so the idea of Multipliers, and it’s a small team of us that, you know, we have a definite bias within the kingdom space to the disciple-making as the mission and engine of the church. And what’s it look like to get back to Jesus style disciple making. But then church planting and multiplication, what does it look like to be doing things that that are even capable of reproduction that can lead to multiplication and ultimately movement. So our goal is to just help champion at the personal level through personal calling, at the church level through disciple making and cultures of disciple making that can ultimately produce movements.Todd Wilson — And so we are a champion and advocate for that.Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. You and I are are similarly wired. And over the years, you know I’ve heard people talk about, you know, and they always they’ll do like a series at a church on spiritual gifts. And I’ve often wondered because of the kinds of things I’ve been involved in, if, you know, if I have some sort of apostolic gift, just because of the stuff I found myself doing and, you know, launching campuses and all that.Rich Birch — And it’s interesting that gift over the years I’ve heard, which is similar to the kind of work you’ve been doing over the years is the only gift that I’ve ever noticed that preachers, they seem to talk down about it. And they’re like, stop starting things like, you know, they’re like, they always, you know, are like on the negative side of, you know, being the guy who wants to be entrepreneurial and see new things.Rich Birch — And that’s a part of what I admire about you and the good work you’ve done. When you were at Exponential over those, you know, with you that you co-founded, you know, that almost 20 years, you know, they had this, they saw some amazing things happen there under your leadership, where this idea of moving church reproduction from under 5%, really trying to push us towards 16%.Rich Birch — So for people that are unaware of this, I think this is good context to kind of take a step back and talk about why that number, why are we actually, why are you giving decades of your life towards this idea of trying to move towards 16%? What do we mean by that when you you know talk about that? Because I think that’s a good foundational idea for today’s conversation.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think it’s important it to understand, again, context for me. I didn’t grow up a Christian. I never had a dream to be in full-time vocational ministry. I’ve never wanted to be a lead pastor of anything. You know, ministry was the farthest thing from my mind growing up. When you’re asking kids, what do you want do when you grow up? Todd Wilson — So when God brought me into full-time vocational ministry, and I’m going to say kicking and screaming, I wanted to go start a company. I wanted to go make money. I wanted to go change the world. And so coming into full-time vocational ministry, why in the world would I want to see anything except movements happening? Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — We read about movements in the New Testament. Why do I want to be personally satisfied if God’s calling me into a new life of ministry with anything less than seeing movements?Todd Wilson — And so that was my context of stepping in and and leading at Exponential and what was driving us. And your question from 5% to 16%. Well, Houston, we have a problem.Todd Wilson — If movements are multiplication, and multiplication is generational reproduction, and we, at the time we were starting Exponential, there were less than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing. You just got to let that sink in.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — 95% of churches just 25 years ago, 95% of churches in the U.S. are not reproducing. It’s physically impossible, both mathematically and biblically, to see multiplication and ultimately movements if less than 5% of churches are reproducing.Todd Wilson — So the answer to where’s the 5 to 16, for me personally, God’s called me into a new life and a new ministry. I don’t want to be satisfied with just status quo, but the state of the U.S. church is such that we physically can’t see 100x impact in the operating system of how things are working. Todd Wilson — So the 5 to 16 was very simple. Let’s measure where we’re at. And so the 16% sociologists say that if you can get 16% of an audience acting a certain way, behaving a certain way, it will become normative for everyone else. I like to say, if you’re in a room and you start quacking like a duck to talk, if you can get 16% of the people in the audience quacking like a duck, then everybody’s going to communicate by quacking like a duck.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And so it just became a conviction. Let’s move the needle from less than 5% to 16%. And then the language we would use is, at 16%, healthy church reproduction would become such a normative thing that we would see multiplication happening.Todd Wilson — Now, the little bit of an elephant in the room before we move on, church planting is just the outcome. So that 5% number, it’s an outcome of the system and what’s happening.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The more ornery number is that the national studies that we did on what percentage of U.S. churches have a disciple-making culture. That’s also less than 5%.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So 95% of churches don’t have a functional mission of disciple-making, and that’s their normative growth engine through disciple-making. So in reality, we have a disciple-making problem, not a church-planting problem. And so those two became very tied together, as as will become evident as we have this interview.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. and And just can you define generational reproduction for folks that are listening in? When you when you when you say that, like, hey, we’re trying to move churches towards generational reproduction, kind of just unpack that a little bit more.Todd Wilson — Yeah, let’s let’s start at the personal level of disciple-making. If one person makes a disciple of another person, you’ve got one generation. If that person goes on to make another disciple two generations, that person makes a disciple three generations. We see that biblically. We see that in the leadership pipeline with Paul, that you know we need to see disciples who make disciples who make disciples.Todd Wilson — Once you get to the third or fourth generation of something reproducing itself, if you drew that on paper, one becomes two, two becomes four, four becomes eight, eight becomes 16. That is an exponential or a multiplication curve. So all you have to do to go from addition to multiplication is have healthy reproduction broad and wide multiple generations into the future.Todd Wilson — Now we just take that to the church level, a church that plants a church that plants a church that plants a church broad and wide.Todd Wilson — Now you’ve gone from one church to 16 churches. And now look at the collective attendance of those 16 churches. That’s what you call healthy growth. That’s what you call multiplication when you keep reproducing it over and over.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And there’s actually been progress against this. This is one of the things that I’ve loved as a person just sitting on the outside looking in as you and the team, you know, Dave and the broader Exponential community have really been hammering away at this. You know, we’re not at 16% yet, but we’re seeing progress, which is which is amazing.Todd Wilson — Right. It’s in the studies that we did, and it’s been repeated a couple of times, the needle has moved to at least 7%. That may not sound like a lot, but if you go take the number of churches we’re talking about…Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — …and that needle moving from less than 5% to 7%. And we’re not taking credit for all that at Exponential. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — We’re getting to ride a wave that really started around 2000. Prior to 2000, denominations planted churches, not really churches or networks. We saw the birth of networks around 2000 in the U.S. It’s hard for people to realize, but like in the church planting world, groups like City to City and GlocalNet and Acts 29 and ARC and Church Multiplication Network and Stadia and New Thing Network, none of them existed.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — Literally in a five-year time period, we saw the birth of all these church planting networks, and that happened to coincide with that we saw that need to start Exponential to serve those networks.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So We we were a little bit the right group at the right place, advocating for the right thing.Todd Wilson — And I do think that generally the the wonderful thing is that as that needle is starting to move and the visibility is getting more and more, the next generation wants it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, I would agree.Todd Wilson — They want the scorecard of that. So I feel very optimistic that we’re still a ways away from 16%, but the needle is moving in the right direction.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would echo that too. I think there is, um you know, one of the couple years ago, I had one of those ages in my life flip over with zero on the end that you kind of notice and you reflect back on life a little bit. And I would say one of the things I’ve noticed over, you know, almost 30 years of ministry is this issue is has become more normative. Like it’s it’s a part of the conversation. It’s not that everyone’s doing it, but it’s in the dialogue, which I think is is wonderful.Rich Birch — Well, I, so you know, there’s, you interact with a lot of church leaders across the country. You interact with a lot of people, you have a pulse on a lot of, you know, what’s going on. And there’s a growing sense, you have flagged that there’s a growing sense among leaders that there’s just something wrong. It’s like, you know, there’s like a stink in the bottom of our, our, garbage that’s like, oh it’s a little bit stinky. It’s not like overwhelming, but we can’t put our finger on exactly what that is. Rich Birch — They can’t necessarily name it, but we feel it. We kind of see that there’s maybe something in the way we’re doing what we’re doing that isn’t working. What are you hearing as you sit across the table from church leaders in across the country, you know, around all of these things that we’re talking about?Todd Wilson — Let me describe it a couple of different ways. I think the the word I would put on it is an angst. I think if you look at the definition of an angst, there’s a there’s a growing and an underlying angst. um I’m going to say, if I’m descriptive of the angst, that might not be the way people would exactly say it but it’s how I translate what I’m hearing.Todd Wilson — We are working a lot harder to reach less people and we don’t like the cultural Christian product we’re getting. We’re working a lot harder. We’re spending more money to reach fewer people. And we’re just having this angst that the product we’re producing is a little bit too much consumer cultural Christian as we’re working harder and spending more money. And that leaves somebody full time, know, if I mean, if you’re a full time vocational pastor, there’s an angst that sits in the middle of that dynamic going on. Todd Wilson — My mentor and friend, Robert Lewis, who led Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock for years, Robert’s handed off the leadership back in 2005. Robert describes it this way. He did the foreword on my recent book, and when he read and reviewed the book, he said, Todd, oh my goodness, this is first and foremost a walk down history lane. It’s like going back and looking at history. Todd Wilson — But he said, here’s the thing. I had this angst in 2005. Everything was up and to the right. We were growing. We were doing new campuses. We had started a church planting. Like we’re doing all of the stuff. People are turning to us. They’re looking at what we’re doing. We had started a leadership conference. And I just had this angst that something wasn’t right.Todd Wilson — And he said, I couldn’t name it. He said, I needed a therapist. But where does a megachurch pastor who’s having nothing but success with up and to the right, who’s feeling angst about the system, where do you go for therapy in that? He’s like, I didn’t know whether to feel like I was being ungrateful or what.Todd Wilson — And his words were, as you’ve traced the 75 years of the church growth movement and its evolution into a consumer-driven operating system, you have named my angst. I wish I would have had this book in 2005 to name my angst because half the battle is getting our hands around understanding why we’re feeling the way we do.Rich Birch — Yeah, I was talking to denominational leader within the last year to kind of add a bit more flavor even to that angst, who was saying, and this is a fantastic denomination, you know, Jesus loving, you know, fantastic group of people um and have, you know, very similar what you’re saying, like lots of good things going on.Rich Birch — And this was one of those like, After dinner conversations, you know, long ah a long ways away from a bunch of leaders, we were just chatting on the sideline. And he said, you know, the interesting thing, when you look at our tribe, his movement, he rattled off all their stats. We have a certain number of churches. We have a certain number of pastors. We have a certain number of, you know, baptisms every year. It rattles all that off.Rich Birch — And he said, you know, if you were to look at where we were 20 years ago, the number of churches is the same, the number of, and rattled off all these stats that are the same. Like we’re baptizing the same number of people, the attendance is the same, the the like all these things. He said, the only thing that’s gone up in the last 20 years is we’ve doubled our staff head count. There’s twice as many staff today as there was. And when I read, heard about your book and you talk about this angst, I was like, ooh, that’s exactly what he was describing. He’s like, wait a second. what’s happening here. And him as a denominational leader, he had the same read, hey, there’s something wrong with the way we set this thing up. Rich Birch — So your book, let’s actually dive into a little bit. It starts really at 70 year arc from Donald McGavron from 1955, all the way to today. And so for a leader who’s never really stepped back and thought about the history of like, what, how did we get here? It’s the name of your book. Why does knowing what got us to where we are today, this kind of consumer operating system that you describe, why does, how does understanding that help us as we think about the future?Todd Wilson — It’s a really good question. And I’m not sure, honestly, that I when I, when I set out to write this book, that, that that was even driving me to begin with, but very quickly that became the, I realized that’s why I need to write this book.Todd Wilson — So let, let me explain. And I need to give you a little bit of background to explain, because it’s an important question.Rich Birch — Yep, yep, for sure.Todd Wilson — So when I think about the moment that, that I realized we had a problem. Like that that, okay, we’re on this trajectory, things are moving the right direction to the 16%, and I’m back in the leadership of Exponential now. And I’m realizing, oh my goodness, we really do have a problem. And here’s here was what that looked like. Todd Wilson — I believed we had started learning communities and we had very vibrant learning communities And our learning communities got started because we felt like we need to shift the paradigm of people’s measure of success in the scorecard of church. It was very much about we need to shift paradigm. Alan Hirsch was involved with this on how do we shift from just growing large things to growing decentralized things that saturate. And it was very much about scorecard.Todd Wilson — And if you think about it, we’re wanting to move the needle from 5% to 16%. That’s a scorecard thing. So our initiating event was scorecard. But as we got into these learning communities, which in my opinion were the best things we were doing at Exponential. I mean, they were six to eight month learning journeys and we would rock people’s paradigm.Todd Wilson — We really would. People would go through it and be like, Oh my goodness, I got to have a different view of success in the church.Rich Birch — Right. yeahTodd Wilson — And guess what? They’d go home and Sunday’s coming. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — There’s, services to run, there’s people to pastor, there’s things to do. And the aha moment for me came, Rich, when I realized the the whole definition of insanity, that if you just keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for a different outcome, but that’s insanity. And here I am trying to lead a national organization to see a change in scorecard to move the needle to 16%.Todd Wilson — And I remember the day that I realized we’re not going to get there with the operating system we have in place in church right now. This operating system is not capable of getting us to the 16% number.Todd Wilson — That was a personal crisis. I’m leading an organization that’s up and to the right that the needle is moving. But as a futurist, I’m realizing we’re not going to get where we need to be with the operating system in the church. So the the operating system part was what drove me to start writing this book. I’ll let you ask a question there, and then we’ll circle back to the how does it relate to understanding how we got here, though.Rich Birch — Yeah, so ah just to underline what you’re saying there, um you know in in other conversations, I’ve heard leaders say, you know it’s like, um you know what you know what you reach people with is what you end up keeping them with. And so if what I hear you saying, just putting, I think, other language around it, but correct me, is kind of a consumer-oriented or a consumer cultural operating system that we’ve we’ve used as a church… Todd Wilson — Right.Rich Birch — …you know, obviously by definition, if you ah use a um consumption-based model, that doesn’t, leave you it’s very difficult to turn around and say, okay, now become a multiplier. You know, we got you here as a consumer. Okay, now how do we make you a multiplier? Is that the core pain?Todd Wilson — It is. And Rich, you’re painting the picture of why looking back to understand how we got here is important. If it’s true, that are ah If it’s true, and I want to suggest people ought to go look at it for themselves, that the underlying operating system that has evolved over the last 75 years, it’s not where it started with Donald McGavern in 1955. And there was never bad intentions by any of the good people through the 70 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Todd Wilson — We have evolved from what was originally one thing. into a consumer model that is way more focused on success is growing big, success is making converts, not necessarily disciples. And we we can diagnose that if there’s a problem today, and I suggest there is a problem today, then how we got here and understanding how over 70 years, what was intended to be one thing, gradually (like the frog getting boiled in cold water) turned into something else.Todd Wilson — We’ve got to go through the the, if we really want to change the operating system, and I’ve seen how hard it is, guys can have the paradigm shift. We need to change. Then they go back home into the operating system that they’re operating in. And it is really, really hard to just throw off one operating system and embrace another oneTodd Wilson — And I wouldn’t even encourage people to do that. Don’t go home and just change your operating system overnight. But if you do want to make thoughtful, progressive change, the best way to do it is to start by going back and learn the lesson of how did we get where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — How did things get off track to where to where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — And that’s what ended you know, I started out the book really to go after understanding the operating system itself. And very quickly came to the conclusion, oh, we I’m not sure how we’re going to move to a new operating system if people don’t go through the hard work of looking back and understanding how well-intentioned people over time have delivered for us what we have today in a flawed system.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, I know, again, from my own personal experience, not to bring this back to me, but to my own personal experience, again, it’s been interesting to see similar patterns. You know, every couple years, there’s like some new idea that comes up in the church. And oftentimes I’m like, yeah, this is just like of rehash of a thing I saw 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago.Rich Birch — It’s like, oh, this is is brand new. It’s like, ah, it’s echoes of things we’ve seen in the past. So why don’t we just kind of give people a flyover or a walkover of the kind of eras that you kind of define as you went through the book, just to give people a high level. Rich Birch — Ultimately friends, you know, I’m encouraging you to to do two things out of today. One is to pick up, I think this could be a great book for you and your team to go through. You and your leadership team, buy copies of this, read it. I think it could be an interesting book for you or, and go and listen to Todd’s interview with Carey as well. Carey just takes longer in his podcast and has more time. So there’s going to be, there’s lots packed into that as well. Rich Birch — But why don’t you kind of give us a flyover of the eras? And then maybe when you think about each one of those, something that was like, really positive that came from that area something like hey there’s something good there or maybe there’s something there that we’ve got to be cautious about as we think about the future.Todd Wilson — Yeah. And just to be clear, Rich, you know this, ah I’m a local church guy. My calling is a local church. I’m still on staff at a local church. I love the local church. So this part of the, difficulty for me in spending two years and over a hundred hours of interviews and putting this timeline of history together is I love the church.Todd Wilson — And I I, don’t know that I’d be sitting here talking to you if it weren’t for several of these eras I’m getting ready to name to you. So you’ve got really, I think a common thread through across these areas as we jump into them is typically apostolic, evangelistically driven leaders who really want to reach people. Hell is real. Lost people are going there. We got to reach them. And I think that’s the driving factor across all these eras is well-intentioned people…Todd Wilson — And if I can start with the end point, I think we’ve sort of co-opted the more holistic disciple-making growth engine that’s capable of generational disciple-making with strategies for institutional programmatic growth that are not capable of reproduction. They’re very good at growing large things and reaching lots of people, but not necessarily making, you know, through relational disciple making, disciples who make disciples who plant churches that plant churches.Todd Wilson — So here’s how I would do the flyover. When I got started writing this history, I thought I was doing one chapter of this history in another book. Rich Birch — I love it.Todd Wilson — And one chapter turned into two chapters and three chapters. And eventually my editor said, Todd, you just need to do a full book.Rich Birch — Well, that’s a book.Todd Wilson — And it ends up turning into the longest book I’ve written because of the 75 year history. And ah Rich, seriously, don’t, people don’t need to feel bad if they don’t know all the history. I, I’m like a where’s Waldo through a lot of this history. I’ve had a seat at the table for a lot of the stuff through these eras.Todd Wilson — Until writing this book, I did not know how all the dots connected across these eras. And then it became there were so many, oh, oh, oh. So here’s here’s the shot I’ll give to you. Ididn’t really I knew I had heard of Donald McGavern. I knew he was considered the father of the modern church growth movement. I’ve never, prior to writing this book, read about him, gone off and studied him. Gary McIntosh is his by is Donald McGavern’s biographer. So I spent a lot of time with Gary. He pointed me in the right directions.Todd Wilson — And here’s what I learned. Donald McGavern, born in the late 1800s, international missionary in India. um His father and mother were missionaries in India. He came from the mission field and his context was the international mission field. Todd Wilson — Now, get this as the starting point in 1955. He’s an international missionary. He has planted 15 churches himself in his career, none of which ever grew to more than 100 people. So you got to let that sink in. The father of the modern church growth movement planted 15 churches, none of which grew to more than 100. And yet he’s the father of what we consider now the modern church growth movement.Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.Todd Wilson — So the kind the context was, he became fascinated after reading a research report on why some churches in provinces in India were growing and others weren’t. Sometimes churches in the same village that were growing and just down the street, others weren’t.Todd Wilson — So he kind of took a scientific approach, the study of church growth. Like let’s study this like it’s a science, like what’s causing some churches to grow. And he he had very clear conclusions out of that, but you know, a handful of conclusions of what’s causing that.Todd Wilson — And so ultimately, when he came off the mission field by 1960, 61, he started the Church Growth Institute, not for U.S. pastors, but for international missionaries who were on furlough to come home and learn about church growth principles that they could take back to the international mission field. He had no interest in U.S. pastors. Todd Wilson — So for multiple years in the 60s, he was doing that. And when Fuller wanted to start their International School of World Missions, one of their best faculty member ratings was Donald McGavern. So they invited him to come become the founding dean of the the Fuller School of World Missions.Todd Wilson — But he only agreed to do it if he could bring the Church Growth Institute with him. So by 1970, you’ve got that up and running. He’s built his team. He invited a guy called C. Peter Wagner off the mission field to come be on his faculty staff. And in 1970, 71, Peter Wagner convinced Donald McGavern that they ought to run one class for U.S. pastors on church growth.Todd Wilson — And the rest is history. That one class, it just turned into, Imean, people were very interested in it. Denominations became interested. And literally within a couple of years, you’ve got this up and to the right people latching on to church growth science.Todd Wilson — And that starts the process, you know. Even from the beginning, you start to see a little bit of co-opting away from McGavern’s things. Not fast, but a little bit. Todd Wilson — So right on the heels of that, in the 70s then, you’ve got this young kid, ah Bill Hybels… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — …who’s running you know going to go into business and he’s running a street ministry with youth. He’s being mentored by Robert Shuler.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — And Shuler’s got the possibility thinking, think outside the box, very apostolic. Turns out Shuler not only mentors Hybels, but there’s some mentoring of Rick Warren. And so you’ve got the birth of the seeker-sensitive era then.Todd Wilson — You know, if the first era was the McGavern-Roots era, now we’ve got the seeker-sensitive era. And, you know, that can be a positive or a negative stigma. For me, in 1976, I’m in middle school going into high school, not a Christian, live down the street from this movie theater called the Willow Creek Movie Theater. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — And my mom drags us kicking and screaming into the Willow Creek Movie Theater. We were the avatar family for the Seeker Sensitive family movement.Rich Birch — Right. Movement.Todd Wilson — From Seeker Sensitive, you get out of that the what Peter Drucker and Bob Buford would call the large church phenomena and the birth of Leadership Network then with the large church phenomena, which became the megachurch phenomena.Todd Wilson — You’ve got Rick Warren and his masterful work with the purpose-driven church. Rick’s able to put handles on this church growth part, but Rick was a disciple of Donald McGavern, so he’s got the McGavern roots. Todd Wilson — You’ve got Hybels with the Shuler roots. And in that 80 into the 90s with the birth of the Global Leadership Summit and the other, you’ve you’ve got this very influential large church phenomena, purpose-driven, being shaped by, you know, in large part, the combination of Leadership Network, Hybels, Rick Warren… And that brings us up to you know about 2000. Todd Wilson — And just as a flyover, I would then call the era of the externally focused church. You’ve got the rapid fire birth of church planting networks. You’ve got multi-site. People don’t realize prior to 2000, there’s less than 50 multi-site churches.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — Leadership Network engages it in 2000. And from 2000 to 2010 you see an up, I mean, radically up and to the right.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The externally focused church, same thing. Rick Russo has book right in that time period. The missional guys, right in that time period. So the common theme between these church planning networks, the missional guys, the externally focused guys, the multi-site, is we’re now looking outside of ourselves.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — But in large part, we’re still looking outside of ourselves as growth strategies for our things. If you really go look under the hood of a lot of those.Todd Wilson — And then I would say coming out of the externally or outwardly focused era, 2015 to 2025, I just have no other name than the disruption era. As I was doing the research on this book, um I had to stop at like 12 major disruptions that happened in that time period with COVID right in the middle. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so that’s the…Rich Birch — Political upheaval. There’s a bunch in there in that same, you know, yeah, that there’s been a schism.Todd Wilson — You’ve got deconstruction of faith.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You’ve got cynicism. You’ve got platformed individualism with the birth of social media. Now anybody can be their own, you know, playlist influencer. There’s just so many disruptive factors in there.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Now you look at all those disruptive factors with the evolution of what’s happening in the church and the church operating system. And it leaves us on a very shaky foundation at that point that, you know It kind of brings us up to where we are now, and you can either be a pessimist at that or an optimist. And I choose the optimist path that we’re poised for a new day and a new operating system is my prayer.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And friends, as you can see, you just got a real thin slice of, you know, just all the various phases that you do such a great job unpacking for us to help us really understand how we we got here. It was It was wild, it’s wild thinking about a lot of that because I remember, you know, various phases of those over the last particularly 25 years, you know, seeing that up close and seeing, you know, kind of the impact that has had and then wondering about the future and where we go from here. Rich Birch — So thinking about the future and, you know, obviously you’ve, um you know, you’ve you’re making a clear clarion call around, hey, we’ve got to think differently than the consumer driven operating system. We’ve got to we’ve got to come up with something different. After all of that, um and we’ve kind of covered this already, but I’d love to make sure we kind of hone on this, have this resonate with people that are listening in. Why is it so difficult for that system, for the consumer-driven operating system to to really ultimately produce healthy reproduction and multiplication and in churches? What’s structurally ah broken about it? And what what would be some first steps we should be thinking about change to the future as we think about, okay, where we go from here? Todd Wilson — Yeah.Rich Birch — How do we, you know, build on the positive stuff, but also look for something different as we look to the future? Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think we don’t have to make it complex, Rich, if we just keep trying to come back to simplicity for a minute. Like the system that has evolved has actually become pretty complex when you think about it. I would say if we could just focus on, I’m not even going to say changing overnight, but if if I’m a lead pastor, if I’m on staff at a church, I’m really focused on disciple-making as the core mission and growth engine of the church. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Like what is it, most churches are going to say our mission is disciple making or it’s going to be part of it. They’re going to say we have a culture of disciple making, but it is not what the data shows. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — You know, again, 95% of churches do not have a culture of disciple-making. They have a culture of program activity. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so I’m not an advocate of changing everything overnight, but if you want to shift from a culture of program activity to a true culture of disciple-making‚ it has to start with the lead minister having a simple, reproducible, in-practice disciple-making approach that is being modeled for the… I don’t mean discipling the staff. I mean there’s people the lead pastor are personally discipling, modeling that simple, reproducible process. Todd Wilson — Where we’re starting to see traction and where I think the breakthroughs are going to come in getting us to the new operating system of the future, it is going to start, and it’s it’s happening right now, with pastors who say, you know, if I’m really honest, I’ve been preaching the last 52 weeks. I’ve been leading meetings. I’ve been doing, I’ve been doing, I’ve done, but I’m not really personally making disciples. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And I think it’s going to start with the lead pastor, the elders, senior people saying, If we could only have one metric of success in the next 12 months, it’s not growth, it’s not the activities we do, it’s not the new building. If we only have one measure of success, it’s how many disciples have I personally, relationally been involved in? me Not how many have I preached to, not how many outreach events have we done where we’ve got, but what have I personally done on the disciple-making front?Todd Wilson — And I don’t want to make it more complicated than that. That’s what we’re missing right now.Rich Birch — That’s good. No, that’s really good. Yeah, that’s good. I love the practical takeaway of, um yeah, it’s like, who are the three people in your life that you’re actually discipling? Let’s start there. Rich Birch — So this is kind of a sidebar to it.Todd Wilson — Can I just look real quick?Rich Birch — Yes. Yep. Push back. Yep.Todd Wilson — So David Putman, who’s part of what we do at Multipliers, David’s longtime kingdom guy.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You should have him on as an interview here. David is completely focused on what he calls the 5-3-2 right now. Five simple reproducible principles, three rhythms, and and two relationships. So it’s a triad of three people that just keeps reproducing.Todd Wilson — Anybody can do it. A ninth grader can do it. A lead pastor can do it. I’m watching this model take different groups by storm right now. And whether you embrace the 5-3-2 or some other model like it, the key is going to be having a simple, reproducible process that works for the lead pastor and anyone else in the church. Same model.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah we had David on back in 2020 and I’m like we got to get him back on uh the podcast. Rich Birch — So sidebar issue, so this is not something we’d you know kicked around ahead of time but it’s kind of adjacent to this. So I am not a I'm not a teaching pastor. Similar to you. I’m not, i never saw myself as a lead pastor. I’ve always been in the like, Hey, my job’s to be in the second chair, cheering for other lead pastors. I’ve worked for um really over my career as an XP three incredible communicator lead pastors who it would appear like, and it is, they, all three of them, God gifted them with this ability to speak and gather crowds. Like that was like core. And, and I, I’ve spent a lot of time like listening to them and watching them. And part of it just appears to be like, it’s definitely a gifting that’s going on there.Rich Birch — And I, over time, ah questions like the following would come up that I would I'd struggle with, where it’s like, it would appear like this person can gather a lot of people, and we can build more chairs in front of that person and people will hear that person and they’ll they’ll take steps towards Jesus. Rich Birch — And I understand that that’s not, or that’s not a full picture of discipleship. That’s one piece of the discipleship puzzle, but it’s not… And the the kind of organizational pressure is, okay, let’s keep figuring out how to build more seats in front of this person and and their gift. How do we get them to leverage their gift well? Rich Birch — And to be honest, I’ve been in conversations where I’ve been the voice of like, I want to line 100,000 people up in front of this person to hear this person speak because I think the way they talk about Jesus is different than what I’ve heard other people say and it it’ll make a difference. Rich Birch — That is, I think, at the center of this tension that there’s some there seems to be something about the gift of teaching that it’s not, I don’t know whether it’s not evenly distributed, or there’s like a brokenness in humanity and we only want to listen to certain kinds of people. I don’t know whether it’s one of those two things. So all I’ve done is describe a problem and I’m going to say, comment on it, Todd.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think you’re right on the mark. I think I want to affirm that, you know, I mean, everybody has their definitions. I believe the preaching role is, and and the teaching and reaching is a piece of the discipleship equation.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — I think if I’m defining the problem statement, We have made it the biggest piece… Rich Birch — Sure. Todd Wilson — …instead of a piece or a playing a role in it. So I think the issue is that how big we’ve made it. Like you, I was an executive pastor for years. And when I look back on that time, my role was not about holistic relational disciple making that could be the growth engine of the church. and it It was how do we get as many people in seats in the auditorium on Sunday? We need great marketing. We need great outreach.Todd Wilson — And again, I think all of those play a role in the disciple-making process ultimately. But let’s just be honest, that’s not disciple-making itself. It plays a role in the disciple-making process.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So the elephant in the room here is, how do we scale disciple-making? If I if I could be If I could be the czar of this, I’m not, but if I could be, I want the genius at the end. I want the unique gifts that are represented across the whole mosaic and the church, starting with that dynamic creature that can attract the crowd. I want it. Todd Wilson — But I also want those senior leaders of the organization I really want to be focused on what is our growth engine and what is our holistic disciple-making process. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And the number one thing I want from those senior leaders is not their unique gift. I want their modeling, their personal modeling of the simple, reproducible, disciple-making growth engine that anybody in the church can do. Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — I mean, that that preaching gift you’re talking about, that that one lead pastor can do, how many other people in the church can do that?Rich Birch — Right. Not many. Yep.Todd Wilson — So there’s their paradigm. So we need them doing it.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — But I would argue what we need them doing even more than that inspiration is modeling the simple reproducible disciple making thing that people know that’s how we’re going to win here.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I’ve that lines up, I’ve said it at probably, well, not a thousand times, but hundreds of times with lead pastors over the years that in the context of this conversation, I would rather them weave in the discussion about their discipleship relationships as like just a normative part of conversation rather than the, we’re doing six weeks on discipleship and how to become disciple making. I’m like, if you just pepper that stuff in week in, week out, it just is a normative part of the conversation that changes culture. Rich Birch — The kind of like, we’re going to make it a program. We’re going to brand it. We’ve got a great name on it. And my experience has been, it’s it’s a little bit like nailing jello to the wall. There’s there’s actually some of that containing of what we’re talking about actually kills the exact thing that we’re trying to do. And so, man, I think there’s a real tension there. And how do we help those people? Rich Birch — Because it’s not like we want them to do a worse job. It’s not like, hey, if you could stop talking in a way that attracts a crowd, that’s not the answer. But we’ve got to, like you say, how do we move them into those personal relationships? That’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation…Todd Wilson — My question would be, Rich, what what would happen…Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — …if an average lead pastor went on a one-year journey to to of disciple-making themselves? Call it a triad, call it four, five. They’re always, over the next year, going to be in a disciple-making small micro group… Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Wilson — …and all of their preaching is going to be informed.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — That’s their laboratory of learning.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s their paradigm. Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — That’s their paradigm. And now they’re bringing it to life, not just as periodic examples, but, you know, my whole frame of reference of my library is what comes out of that experience. Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — And our problem right now is that’s just lack. It isn’t that it’s inserted a little bit. It’s just lacking.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, this has been great. what ah What a great conversation. And as you can tell, friends, there’s a lot we could talk about there. And a lot you know just there’s a rich conversation that could be had around this. Rich Birch — Let’s let’s pivot and kind of talk a little bit about the book specifically. i want to make sure people pick up copies of this. Again, the name of it is How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. People can get this on Amazon. Are there other places that you would send people if they want to pick up copies of this?Todd Wilson — Yeah. So if they go to church-growth.org, church-growth.org, that’s the book’s homepage. You can actually get the free PDF there. You can get the free audio version there. There’s a full wiki there that people can contribute to. What you kind of mentioned it in passing, but I’ll highlight, it is impossible to read this book and not see yourself in it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.Todd Wilson — Anyone who’s been a Christian for a while, they, the editor of the book said the power of this is going to be, she said, I can tell you the page in the book that I entered the story. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Todd Wilson — So you’ve got the free PDF, the free audio, the wiki, and then for people that just want the paper versions, you can get it on Amazon.Rich Birch — That’s great. And we’ll link to that friends so that you can, you know, find that quickly in the show notes and, and friends, I would encourage you again, to me, I think this could be a great resource to do with your leadership team, as I mentioned earlier. It would be a great kind of conversation starter and really context setter for us to think through these issues as we think about the future. Rich Birch — So kind of as we, as we come to close up today’s conversation, any final words as we wrap up today?Todd Wilson — Rich, I just appreciate the work you’re doing. I want to be an encouragement to pastors. Don’t let this book be, it’s not a deconstruction book. It’s not, oh my goodness, the church has fallen apart.Rich Birch — No, yeah.Todd Wilson — We need to keep plugging away doing what we’re doing, but we also have to have an eye on the future that this operating system that has evolved, everything has a beginning and an end. And this operating system, I believe, is in its final days. I think we’re we’re seeing you know less and less effectiveness with it. And I think we just need to be in a posture of giving permission to the next generations to do some trial and error and experimentation and not be locked into the paradigm of the of the past inheriting previous things.Rich Birch — No, fantastic, Todd. I appreciate you being here. And I would echo that, you know, you’re you’re the kind of leader that’s in our corner trying to help us get better. And so I appreciate the voice that you’ve had for for decades. And so I really appreciate that. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you, get connected, follow along with Multipliers where do we want to send them online?Todd Wilson — Multipliers.org can get me to all the different ways from email to phone to social media. So multipliers.org.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Todd. Appreciate you being here, sir.Todd Wilson — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate it.

Guided Question Are you faithfully using the spiritual gifts God has given you to serve others in love, or have you allowed those gifts to remain unused or misunderstood? Summary This episode examines the purpose and use of spiritual gifts, with particular attention to the gift of tongues. Dr. Robert Lewis begins by explaining that spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit to equip every believer for ministry and service. The gifts are not given for personal recognition but to be given away for the benefit of the body of Christ. Because using a gift is an act of self-giving, love must be the motivation behind its use. Without love, spiritual gifts can either be misused or remain dormant.   Outline 1. Spiritual Gifts Equip Us for Ministry God gives every believer spiritual gifts so they can actively serve others. No gift is insignificant, and every gift contributes to the health of the body of Christ. 2. Love Must Motivate Our Gifts 1 Corinthians 13 shows that spiritual gifts must be exercised in love. Without love, gifts can be misused or left unused. 3. Understanding the Gift of Tongues Lewis turns to 1 Corinthians 14 and addresses the controversy surrounding tongues. Rather than beginning with modern debates, he encourages listeners to examine what Scripture teaches about the gift. 4. Acts as a Book of Spiritual Transition Lewis emphasizes that Acts records a unique period of spiritual transition as God moved from the Old Testament ministry of the Spirit to the New Testament ministry of the Spirit and established the church. Because of this, the experiences recorded in Acts should not automatically be treated as normative for believers today. 5. The Holy Spirit and the Believer Lewis argues that the New Testament presents the Holy Spirit as indwelling believers when they place their faith in Christ, rather than as an experience believers must seek at a later time. The unusual experiences recorded in Acts occurred within its unique transitional setting. 6. Tongues at Pentecost Acts 2 describes tongues as recognizable human languages spoken supernaturally by people who had never learned them. The gift served as a sign that attracted attention and enabled people from different nations to hear the disciples proclaiming the mighty works of God. Key Takeaways Spiritual gifts equip believers for ministry. God gives gifts so that believers can function as servants and build up one another. Gifts are meant to be given away. A spiritual gift is not primarily for personal benefit or recognition but for serving the body of Christ. Love must motivate spiritual gifts. Without love, gifts can be misused or left completely dormant. Acts records a unique spiritual transition. The book describes God's transition from the Old Testament ministry of the Spirit to the New Testament ministry of the Spirit and the establishment of the church. Acts should not automatically become today's doctrine. The unusual experiences surrounding the apostles must be understood within their transitional context. The Holy Spirit indwells believers at faith. Lewis argues that the rest of the New Testament presents receiving the Spirit as part of becoming a believer rather than as a later experience believers must seek. Tongues in Acts 2 were human languages. The disciples spoke languages they had never learned, and people from different nations understood them in their own languages. Tongues were supernatural. The ability was not learned or practiced beforehand; it was given by the Spirit. Spiritual gifts should point people toward God. In Acts 2, tongues helped gather attention so that people could hear the disciples proclaiming God's mighty works. Scripture References 1 Peter 4:10 — Use spiritual gifts to serve one another. 1 Corinthians 12 — The Spirit sovereignly gives different gifts, and every gift is important. 1 Corinthians 13 — Love provides the motivation for using spiritual gifts. 1 Corinthians 14 — Instructions concerning tongues, prophecy, and public worship. Acts 1:4–8 — Jesus promises the coming ministry of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1–11 — The Spirit comes at Pentecost, and the disciples speak in other languages. Acts 8 — The Samaritans receive the Holy Spirit in a unique transitional event. Acts 10 — Gentiles receive the Spirit and speak in tongues. Acts 19 — Disciples of John receive the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues and prophesy. John 14:16–17 — Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit will permanently dwell in His followers. 1 Corinthians 12:13 — All believers are baptized into one body by the Holy Spirit. Recorded 10.24.82

We live in a time when no common definition or vision for manhood exists. What does a God-following man look like? On this edition of Equipped with Chris Brooks, guest host Karl Clauson will talk with Robert Lewis and Chris Harper about how a man can be God's man. There's an awakening happening among men in the church. Find out more when you join us for Equipped. Featured resource:BetterMan ministries August thank you gift:A Compelling Faith in a Compromising Culture by Mike Tatlock Equipped with Chris Brooks is made possible through your support. To donate now, click here.

Guided Question When it comes to spiritual experiences and gifts, are you allowing Scripture—not personal experience, emotion, or cultural expectations—to determine what you believe and how you practice your faith? Summary This episode concludes a series on the ministry of the Holy Spirit by focusing on the controversial gift of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. Dr. Robert Lewis begins by acknowledging the strong emotions and differing experiences surrounding tongues, but emphasizes that experience can never be the final authority for the church; Scripture must be the final court of appeal. He reviews several biblical observations about tongues: the gift is presented as a supernatural ability to speak unknown human languages, it primarily functions publicly as a sign to unbelievers, it is directed toward God, and it is not a gift given to every believer. Lewis then explains why tongues may have held such prominence among the Corinthians. Their culture had a long history of mystery religions and ecstatic speech, creating a natural association between ecstatic experiences and spiritual depth. Paul therefore had to help the Corinthians separate their cultural understanding of spirituality from the proper biblical use of the gift. Turning to 1 Corinthians 14, Lewis highlights Paul's emphasis on edification, clarity, interpretation, and order. Prophecy is presented as the greater gift because it communicates clearly to the church and builds up believers. Tongues, when used publicly, require interpretation so that the entire church can understand and be edified. Without interpretation, the speaker should remain silent in the gathered church. The episode then follows the historical record of tongues from the New Testament through church history and into the Pentecostal and charismatic movements of the twentieth century. Lewis observes that tongues became far less prominent after the apostolic period, while also cautioning that history alone cannot establish theological conclusions. Scripture, rather than historical patterns, must determine whether God can still give the gift. Finally, Lewis addresses how Fellowship Bible Church should respond to tongues today. He argues that the church should neither automatically reject the gift nor naively accept every claim of tongues as genuine. Because ecstatic speech can be counterfeited or psychologically induced, spiritual experiences must be tested against Scripture. Any public use of tongues should demonstrate the characteristics Scripture requires, including genuine supernatural ability and interpretation. The episode closes with three priorities for church leadership: remain faithful to God's Word, protect the flock, and promote individual spiritual maturity. Outline Why Tongues Are Controversial Conflicting experiences and opinions Scripture as the final authority The Biblical Gift of Tongues Supernatural human languages A sign to unbelievers Directed toward God Not given to every believer The Corinthian Context Influence of pagan mystery religions Ecstatic speech and perceived spirituality Paul's correction of cultural assumptions 1 Corinthians 14: Proper Use Prophecy prioritizes edification Clarity over unintelligible speech Interpretation required Order in corporate worship Tongues Through Church History Early New Testament manifestations Decline after the apostolic period Historical outbreaks Pentecostal and charismatic movements Evaluating Tongues Today Scripture does not explicitly say the gift has permanently ceased Ecstatic speech can be counterfeited Gifts must be tested Fellowship Bible Church's Approach Neither forbid nor blindly accept tongues Require biblical testing and interpretation Protect the church and promote maturity Key Takeaways Scripture is the final authority. Spiritual experiences, emotions, and personal testimony must be evaluated by God's Word rather than treated as proof of truth. Tongues are not a universal gift. Paul explicitly teaches that not every believer speaks in tongues; the Holy Spirit sovereignly distributes gifts according to His purposes. Edification should govern spiritual gifts. In the gathered church, gifts should benefit the body rather than become opportunities for personal spiritual display. Public tongues require interpretation. Without interpretation, the church cannot understand or be edified, so Paul instructs the speaker to remain silent in the gathering. God's gifts must be exercised orderly. Paul's final instruction is to pursue prophecy, not forbid tongues, and ensure that everything is done properly and in an orderly way. History informs but does not determine doctrine. The historical absence or resurgence of tongues cannot by itself establish whether the gift has ceased. Scripture must make that determination. Spiritual experiences must be tested. Not every experience that feels supernatural is necessarily a work of the Holy Spirit. The church is called to test what it encounters and distinguish the genuine from the counterfeit. Church leadership has a responsibility to protect the flock. Testing spiritual gifts helps preserve biblical order while protecting both the congregation and those who believe they possess a particular gift. Scripture References 1 Corinthians 12:30 — Not every believer receives the gift of tongues. 1 Corinthians 14:1–5 — Prophecy is emphasized because it builds up the church. 1 Corinthians 14:6–19 — Spiritual communication should be understandable and edifying. 1 Corinthians 14:20–25 — Gifts should serve God's purposes and lead people toward Him. 1 Corinthians 14:26–28 — Tongues in the church require order and interpretation. 1 Corinthians 14:36–40 — Spiritual gifts must operate according to God's commands and in an orderly manner. Acts 2 — Tongues appear as known languages and serve as a sign that draws attention to the gospel. Acts 10 — Tongues accompany the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Gentile believers. Acts 19 — Tongues are again associated with the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 13:8–10 — The episode considers whether this passage teaches that tongues have ceased. 1 John 4:1 — Spiritual claims should be tested rather than automatically accepted. Recorded 9.26.82

Guided Question How does your understanding of love compare with the kind of "true love" described in Scripture, and what would it look like to live that out in your relationships this week? Summary What does the world really need? While our culture constantly talks about love, this message argues that what the world truly lacks is real, biblical love. Beginning with the observation that love is the "energy of life," Dr. Robert Lewis explains that many of the things people call love—conditional affection, emotional attraction, or lust—are merely substitutes that ultimately leave people empty. Drawing from passages throughout Scripture, he demonstrates that love is central to God's redemptive plan. God's love moved Him to pursue sinful humanity, love fulfills the entire law, love is the goal of Christian instruction, and love is the defining mark of every follower of Christ. The Christian life is not measured simply by knowledge or religious activity, but by a transformed heart that genuinely loves God and others. Turning to 1 Corinthians 13, Dr. Lewis highlights Paul's practical description of "true love." Love is patient, kind, humble, selfless, forgiving, truthful, enduring, and unwavering. Unlike the world's temporary or self-serving versions of love, biblical love never fails because it reflects God's own character. Followers of Christ are called not merely to admire this love but to pursue it as the defining characteristic of their lives. Outline Why the world desperately needs real love False substitutes for biblical love Love at the center of God's plan Love fulfills God's commands Love as the goal of Christian growth Love as the evidence of genuine faith The transformation of John: from "Son of Thunder" to the Apostle of Love The characteristics of true love (1 Corinthians 13) True love never fails Key Takeaways Love is the life-giving force that God intends to characterize every believer. The world's versions of love are often conditional, emotional, or self-serving, but biblical love is sacrificial and enduring. God's love is the foundation of salvation and the motivation behind His pursuit of humanity. Love is the fulfillment of God's commands and the proper motivation for Christian obedience. Spiritual maturity is measured not by knowledge alone, but by growing in love. Genuine love is one of the clearest evidences of knowing Christ. The qualities listed in 1 Corinthians 13 provide a practical picture of how believers are called to live. True love reflects God's character and never fails. Scripture References John 3:16 — God's love moved Him to send His Son for the world. Matthew 22:34–40 — Love for God and neighbor fulfills the entire Law. 1 Timothy 1:5–7 — The goal of Christian instruction is love. John 13:35 — Love identifies Jesus' disciples. 1 John 4:7–8 — Those who know God demonstrate His love. Luke 9:51–56 — Jesus corrects James and John, teaching a better way than anger. 1 Corinthians 13:4–8 — True love is patient, kind, enduring, and never fails. Recorded 9.5.82

Guided Question How has God uniquely gifted you to serve others, and are you actively using those gifts to strengthen Christ's body—or are you content to simply attend church without engaging in His mission? Summary In this message, Dr. Robert Lewis walks through 1 Corinthians 12, explaining that the church is not merely an organization that runs programs but a living, supernatural body empowered by the Holy Spirit. Every believer receives spiritual gifts—not natural talents—to serve others, strengthen the church, and advance God's kingdom. These gifts are sovereignly distributed by the Holy Spirit and are meant to be exercised for the benefit of the whole body, not for personal recognition or spiritual status. Lewis highlights five foundational truths about spiritual gifts: they are given by the Holy Spirit, they vary among believers, they are distributed according to God's will, they provide believers with a unique place of ministry, and they ultimately call Christians to die to self in order to serve others. Discovering and faithfully using one's spiritual gift gives purpose, identity, and balance to the Christian life. The sermon then addresses the often-debated sign gifts—particularly miracles and healing. While acknowledging common arguments that some miraculous gifts ceased after the apostolic age, Lewis concludes that Scripture does not require that position. Instead, he believes God remains free to grant these gifts if He chooses, though any genuine manifestation must align with the biblical pattern and never contradict Scripture. Examining the New Testament, Lewis distinguishes miracles from healings and argues that biblical miracles primarily authenticated God's revelation, while biblical healings were instantaneous, complete, undeniable, and publicly verifiable. He expresses skepticism toward many modern healing ministries because they often lack these biblical characteristics, while affirming that God still answers prayer and sovereignly heals according to His will. Lewis concludes by returning to Paul's central message: the church flourishes only when every believer discovers and faithfully exercises the spiritual gifts God has given them. A Spirit-filled church is marked not by impressive programs or religious ritual, but by ordinary believers serving one another through the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. Outline The supernatural nature of the church Five foundational truths about spiritual gifts Discovering your God-given identity through ministry Spiritual gifts require self-denial and servant-hearted living Are the sign gifts still active today? Biblical perspectives on miracles and healing The difference between God's healing and the gift of healing The church's call to use every believer's spiritual gifts Key Takeaways The Church Is a Living Body — The church is a supernatural organism empowered by the Holy Spirit, not merely an institution or organization. Every Believer Has a Spiritual Gift — The Holy Spirit sovereignly gives each Christian unique gifts to strengthen the body of Christ. Your Gift Gives You Purpose — Discovering and using your spiritual gift provides identity, direction, and meaningful ministry within the church. Ministry Requires Dying to Self — Spiritual gifts are never for self-promotion but for serving others in humility and sacrifice. God Is Sovereign Over Spiritual Gifts — While Scripture allows for God to work miraculously today, every claimed gift or miracle must be measured against biblical truth. God Still Heals — Though Lewis questions many modern healing ministries, he affirms that God continues to answer prayer and heal according to His sovereign will. A Healthy Church Is a Serving Church — The church reaches its fullest strength when every believer actively employs their spiritual gifts to serve others. Scripture References 1 Corinthians 12 — Spiritual gifts are given by the Holy Spirit to build up Christ's body. 1 Corinthians 14 — Greater emphasis should be placed on gifts that edify the whole church. Romans 12:1–8 — Present yourself as a living sacrifice and faithfully use your spiritual gifts. Matthew 10:1 — Jesus gives His apostles authority over unclean spirits and disease. 2 Corinthians 12:7–10 — God's grace is sufficient, even when He chooses not to remove suffering. 1 Peter 4:10 — Every believer should use their gift to serve others faithfully. Matthew 16:24–25 — Following Christ requires denying yourself and giving your life away. Recorded 7.25.82

Guest speaker Robert Lewis' message on 6/21/26. Music by scottholmesmusic.com

Guided Question How would you evaluate your spiritual progress today — are you cultivating a deeper desire for God's presence, drawing strength from Him in difficult seasons, and growing in a life marked by trust and obedience? Summary This episode explores Psalm 84 and what Dr. Robert Lewis calls the "Signs of a Pilgrim's Progress." He reminds us that life's highest calling is to know God, yet the distractions and demands of everyday life often cause us to lose sight of that purpose. Using Psalm 84, Dr. Lewis identifies three marks of genuine spiritual growth. First is a yearning heart—a deep desire for God's presence that produces contentment and praise. Second is increasing strength, which comes through continual communion with God and enables believers to pass through life's "Valleys of Baca" without becoming trapped in spiritual dryness. Third is a good life, marked by trust, obedience, and a growing preference for God's presence over the world's rewards. The psalm concludes with a call to spiritual renewal: confess spiritual disorientation, recommit to pursuing God, bring your burdens and dry places to Him, and trust His promise that He withholds no good thing from those who walk uprightly. The movement is clear: A heart that longs for God. A life strengthened by God. A life satisfied in God. Key Takeaways The Yearning Heart (Psalm 84:1–4) A growing believer desires God's presence above all else. Religious activity cannot replace genuine devotion. Contentment and praise flow naturally from enjoying God. Increasing Strength (Psalm 84:5–7) Strength comes through continual communion with God. "Highways to Zion" are built through prayer, Scripture, repentance, and obedience. God can transform life's dry valleys into places of blessing. Believers go "from strength to strength" as they draw near to Him. The Good Life (Psalm 84:10–12) God's presence is better than worldly success or comfort. Trust and obedience lead to lasting satisfaction. No good thing is withheld from those who walk uprightly. Applications Confess spiritual disorientation. Recommit to pursuing God's presence. Bring your "Valley of Baca" to Him. Rest in God's promises and faithfulness. Verse Summary 2 – A heart that longs for God 5–7 – Strength through God's presence 10 – God's presence is better 12 – Blessed is the one who trusts Him Scripture References Psalm 84 — The signs of spiritual progress and delighting in God's presence Revelation 2:1–5 — Returning to your first love Psalm 51:16–17 — God desires a broken and contrite heart Mark 7:6–7 — Worship that is merely external Jeremiah 9:23–24 — Boasting in knowing God Matthew 10:29–31 — God's care for those who belong to Him Recorded 5.9.82

Guided Question Are you growing older in your faith—or truly growing up through intentional application of God's Word? Summary In this sermon from Fellowship Bible Church, Dr. Robert Lewis challenges believers to examine whether they are spiritually maturing or merely aging in the faith. Drawing from Epistle to the Hebrews 5, he addresses Christians who had followed Christ for decades yet remained spiritually immature. He describes three evidences of spiritual stagnation: dull hearing, an ailing appetite for truth, and failing discernment. Spiritual truth is never neutral—if not applied, it hardens the heart. Using the parable of the talents from Gospel of Matthew 25, he emphasizes that unused truth is eventually lost. The heart of the message centers on intent and application. Maturity is not measured by biblical knowledge but by practiced obedience. Christianity becomes boring when it is merely acknowledged—but becomes an adventure when lived. Through a powerful real-life story of a woman who chose obedience during a painful divorce, the sermon concludes with a compelling reminder: abundant life cannot be defined without application. Outline I. Introduction: Growing Older vs. Growing Up Age does not equal maturity. Christians can expend energy yet remain spiritually stagnant. The “spiritual treadmill” problem. II. Context: Hebrews 5 and Spiritual Immaturity Written to believers mature in years but immature in growth. The writer pauses discussion of Melchizedek to address stagnation. III. Three Evidences of Spiritual Stagnation (Hebrews 5:11–14) 1. Impaired Hearing (Dull of Hearing) Spiritual calluses form when truth is not applied. Two root causes: Utility — Failing to see Scripture as useful. Intent — Never intending to fully live it out. If truth is not used, it is lost (Matthew 25 principle). 2. An Ailing Appetite (Milk Instead of Meat) Stuck on elementary principles. Immaturity is lack of experience, not lack of knowledge. Maturity = practiced obedience, not accumulated information. 3. Failing Faculties (Lack of Discernment) Without practice, life becomes guesswork. Repeated conflict and instability often stem from lack of biblical discernment. Meditation integrates Scripture with daily living. IV. The Proposal: An Exciting Christian Life The difference between reading about something and experiencing it. Christianity is not a job—it's an adventure. Radical obedience breeds: Joy Freedom Anticipation Abundant life V. Illustration: Obedience in Divorce A woman applies 1 Corinthians 6 instead of retaliating. Intentional obedience brings freedom and restoration. Application leads to true spiritual adventure. VI. Conclusion Abundant life cannot be defined without application. Choose adventure over boredom. Apply one specific truth this week. Key Takeaways Growing older in Christ does not guarantee spiritual maturity. Spiritual truth is never neutral—it either softens or hardens. If you don't use what you've been given, you lose it. Maturity is measured by practiced obedience, not Bible knowledge. Discernment comes through application. Christianity without application is boring. Christianity with radical intent is an adventure. Abundant life begins where obedience begins. Scripture References  Hebrews 5:11–14 — Spiritual immaturity revealed through dull hearing, spiritual infancy, and lack of discernment. Matthew 25:14–29 — What is not used is lost; faithful application leads to growth and joy. Proverbs 14:12 — What seems right without wisdom leads to destruction. Psalms 1:1–3 — Meditating on God's Word produces stability and fruitfulness. 1 Corinthians 6:7 — Better to suffer wrong than abandon obedience among believers. 3 John 1:4 — True joy comes from walking in the truth. Recorded 3.14.82

Guided Question How should believers respond when Scripture challenges modern cultural assumptions about gender roles, authority, and visible expressions of faith? Summary In this sermon on 1 Corinthians 11:2–16, Dr. Robert Lewis addresses one of the New Testament's most debated and culturally sensitive passages: head coverings in worship. Framing the chapter as a theological “Rubik's Cube,” he carefully examines Paul's teaching on Christian tradition, authority, and God's design for order. Dr. Lewis explains that 1 Corinthians 11 discusses two traditions—head coverings and the Lord's Supper—and focuses here on the doctrine behind head coverings: the principle of headship. Drawing from the relationship between God the Father and Christ, he highlights the biblical pattern of equality in essence with distinction in function. Applying this to men and women, he argues that Paul's instruction was rooted not in temporary culture, but in creation order. Rather than promoting legalism, the message calls believers to wrestle honestly with Scripture, to understand the meaning behind tradition, and to consider how visible practices can reflect spiritual realities. The ultimate aim is harmony, humility, and faithfulness to God's design within the church. Outline I. Christian Tradition and Context (1 Corinthians 11:2, 17–34) Two traditions addressed: head coverings and the Lord's Supper The importance of understanding the meaning behind church practices II. The Principle of Headship (1 Corinthians 11:3) God → Christ → Man → Woman Equality in essence, distinction in function Order as part of God's design III. Head Coverings in Worship (1 Corinthians 11:4–6) Worn during public prayer and prophecy A visible symbol of authority and distinction IV. Rooted in Creation (1 Corinthians 11:7–12; Genesis 2) Creation order as the foundation Mutual dependence “in the Lord” V. Nature and Symbolism (1 Corinthians 11:13–16) Hair length as a natural distinction Head covering as a spiritual symbol Affirmed as apostolic practice among the churches Key Takeaways Christian traditions are meant to communicate theological truth. Biblical headship reflects order, not inequality. Equality of worth does not eliminate functional distinction. Visible practices can teach and reinforce spiritual realities. Scripture must be wrestled with, not ignored. Cultural shifts do not automatically nullify biblical principles. Faithfulness to God's design requires humility and courage. Scripture References 1 Corinthians 11:2–16 — Head coverings reflect divine order in worship. 1 Corinthians 11:3 — The order of headship is established. John 5:30 — Jesus submits to the Father's will. John 6:38 — Christ fulfills the Father's purpose. Philippians 2:6–11 — Equal with God, Christ humbles Himself. Colossians 2:9 — Christ possesses full deity. 1 Peter 2:23 — Jesus models trusting submission. Genesis 2 — Creation establishes male–female order. 1 Corinthians 11:7–9 — Creation order shapes distinct roles. 1 Corinthians 11:11–12 — Men and women are mutually dependent. 1 Peter 3:7 — Husband and wife are fellow heirs. 1 Corinthians 11:17–34 — Worship must reflect reverence and order. 1 Corinthians 14 — Corporate worship requires structure and clarity. Recorded 2.21.82

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “Discipleship.” Dr. Robert Lewis joined us to explain why discipleship moves beyond an audience mentality and into real investment, equipping believers to lead, grow, and call others up in Christ. Dr. Lewis is a pastor, founding partner of Better Man, and author of “Raising a Modern-Day Knight.” Dr. Hormoz Sharia joined us with an update on Iran, sharing how believers are suffering, and how Christ is bringing hope even in deep grief. Dr. Shariat is the Founder and President of Iran Alive Ministries (IAM), which uses satellite broadcasting and the internet to share the gospel with Iranians. You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Dr. Robert Lewis [ 27:16 ]Dr. Hormoz Sharia [ 41:06 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “Discipleship.” Dr. Robert Lewis joined us to explain why discipleship moves beyond an audience mentality and into real investment, equipping believers to lead, grow, and call others up in Christ. Dr. Lewis is a pastor, founding partner of Better Man, and author of “Raising a Modern-Day Knight.” Dr. Hormoz Sharia joined us with an update on Iran, sharing how believers are suffering, and how Christ is bringing hope even in deep grief. Dr. Shariat is the Founder and President of Iran Alive Ministries (IAM), which uses satellite broadcasting and the internet to share the gospel with Iranians. You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Dr. Robert Lewis [ 27:16 ]Dr. Hormoz Sharia [ 41:06 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “Discipleship.” Dr. Robert Lewis joined us to explain why discipleship moves beyond an audience mentality and into real investment, equipping believers to lead, grow, and call others up in Christ. Dr. Lewis is a pastor, founding partner of Better Man, and author of “Raising a Modern-Day Knight.” Dr. Hormoz Sharia joined us with an update on Iran, sharing how believers are suffering, and how Christ is bringing hope even in deep grief. Dr. Shariat is the Founder and President of Iran Alive Ministries (IAM), which uses satellite broadcasting and the internet to share the gospel with Iranians. You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Dr. Robert Lewis [ 27:16 ]Dr. Hormoz Sharia [ 41:06 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “Discipleship.” Dr. Robert Lewis joined us to explain why discipleship moves beyond an audience mentality and into real investment, equipping believers to lead, grow, and call others up in Christ. Dr. Lewis is a pastor, founding partner of Better Man, and author of “Raising a Modern-Day Knight.” Dr. Hormoz Sharia joined us with an update on Iran, sharing how believers are suffering, and how Christ is bringing hope even in deep grief. Dr. Shariat is the Founder and President of Iran Alive Ministries (IAM), which uses satellite broadcasting and the internet to share the gospel with Iranians. You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Dr. Robert Lewis [ 27:16 ]Dr. Hormoz Sharia [ 41:06 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “Discipleship.” Dr. Robert Lewis joined us to explain why discipleship moves beyond an audience mentality and into real investment, equipping believers to lead, grow, and call others up in Christ. Dr. Lewis is a pastor, founding partner of Better Man, and author of “Raising a Modern-Day Knight.” Dr. Hormoz Sharia joined us with an update on Iran, sharing how believers are suffering, and how Christ is bringing hope even in deep grief. Dr. Shariat is the Founder and President of Iran Alive Ministries (IAM), which uses satellite broadcasting and the internet to share the gospel with Iranians. You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Dr. Robert Lewis [ 27:16 ]Dr. Hormoz Sharia [ 41:06 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “Discipleship.” Dr. Robert Lewis joined us to explain why discipleship moves beyond an audience mentality and into real investment, equipping believers to lead, grow, and call others up in Christ. Dr. Lewis is a pastor, founding partner of Better Man, and author of “Raising a Modern-Day Knight.” Dr. Hormoz Sharia joined us with an update on Iran, sharing how believers are suffering, and how Christ is bringing hope even in deep grief. Dr. Shariat is the Founder and President of Iran Alive Ministries (IAM), which uses satellite broadcasting and the internet to share the gospel with Iranians. You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Dr. Robert Lewis [ 27:16 ]Dr. Hormoz Sharia [ 41:06 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we continued our weekly theme, “Discipleship.” Dr. Robert Lewis joined us to explain why discipleship moves beyond an audience mentality and into real investment, equipping believers to lead, grow, and call others up in Christ. Dr. Lewis is a pastor, founding partner of Better Man, and author of “Raising a Modern-Day Knight.” Dr. Hormoz Sharia joined us with an update on Iran, sharing how believers are suffering, and how Christ is bringing hope even in deep grief. Dr. Shariat is the Founder and President of Iran Alive Ministries (IAM), which uses satellite broadcasting and the internet to share the gospel with Iranians. You can hear the highlights of today’s program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps:Dr. Robert Lewis [ 27:16 ]Dr. Hormoz Sharia [ 41:06 ]Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Guided Question How does returning to God's original design for men and women—through submission to Scripture and dependence on the Holy Spirit—challenge the way you currently understand leadership, responsibility, and relationship in your own life? Summary In this message, Dr. Robert Lewis continues his Genesis series by examining roles as part of God's original design for humanity. Building on the prior discussion of equality and difference between men and women, he explores how biblical roles are revealed in Genesis 1–3 and how New Testament writers interpret these passages. Dr. Lewis argues that while men and women are created equal in value and dignity as image-bearers of God, they are given distinct, complementary roles. He highlights several features from Genesis 2 that suggest male headship: Adam's creation first, his assignment to cultivate and guard the garden, his receiving God's command directly, and his role in naming both the animals and the woman. These elements, Lewis explains, are foundational to how the New Testament understands leadership in the home and the church. The sermon then turns to Genesis 3 and the Fall, showing how sin disrupts God's intended order. Satan approaches Eve first, roles are reversed, and Adam fails to lead—resulting in devastating consequences. God's curse affects men and women differently, distorting both leadership and submission into struggle, domination, and resistance. Dr. Lewis explains that this “battle of the sexes” flows directly from the Fall, not from God's original design. Finally, the message offers hope through redemption in Christ. While the curse still affects believers, it can be progressively reversed through radical submission to God's Word and dependence on the Holy Spirit. Drawing from Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3, Dr. Lewis emphasizes that Spirit-filled living restores God's design—calling husbands to loving, sacrificial leadership and wives to respectful submission—so that God's original intent for harmony, purpose, and witness can again be displayed to the world. Outline Introduction: From Differentness to Roles Review of Genesis 1: equality and distinction Cultural resistance to biblical roles Trusting God's conclusions rather than human reasoning Genesis 2: Roles Revealed Adam as primary focus of the chapter God as Father providing occupation and wife Man's role as leader; woman as helper Symbiotic design for subduing and multiplying Theological Indicators of Headship Man created first Adam receiving God's command directly Adam's responsibility to instruct Eve Naming as an act of authority New Testament Affirmation Paul's grounding of church roles in Genesis Key passages: 1 Timothy 2; 1 Corinthians 11 & 14 Roles rooted in creation, not culture Genesis 3: The Fall and Role Reversal Satan's strategy and temptation Doubting God's Word and motives Eve leads; Adam follows Adam held responsible for the Fall The Curse and Distorted Roles Pain in childbirth and toil in work “Desire” and “rule” explained through Genesis 4:7 Struggle, domination, and oppression introduced Roles Restored Through Christ The curse still affects believers Radical commitment required The Word and the Spirit working together Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 as the pathway forward Conclusion God's design as a witness to the world Faithfulness to Scripture despite cultural opposition Key Takeaways Men and women are equal in worth but distinct in role, according to God's design. Biblical roles are rooted in creation, not culture or convenience. The Fall distorted both male leadership and female submission into struggle and oppression. Adam bears responsibility for the Fall because headship includes accountability. Every temptation involves doubting God's Word and His character. The conflict between men and women is a result of sin, not God's original plan. Restoration of roles requires radical submission to Scripture and reliance on the Holy Spirit. Spirit-filled, Word-centered lives enable loving leadership and willing submission. God's redeemed design in marriage and church serves as a testimony to the world. Scripture References Genesis 1:26–28 — Men and women are equally created in God's image and given shared purpose. Genesis 2:15–25 — Distinct, complementary roles are established in creation. Genesis 3:1–19 — Sin reverses God's design and introduces conflict and hardship. Genesis 4:6–7 — “Desire” describes a struggle for control. Luke 3:38 — Adam's representative responsibility is affirmed. 1 Corinthians 11:8–9 — Creation order informs male and female roles. 1 Timothy 2:12–13 — Church roles are grounded in creation, not culture. Ephesians 5:18–33 — Spirit-filled living restores God's design in marriage. Colossians 3:16–19 — God's Word directs healthy marital relationships. Recorded on 1.31.82

Guided Question In a culture that increasingly defines gender roles by social preference and personal experience, how should Christians discern what it truly means to be male and female—and what are the consequences for individuals, families, and the church when God's original design is either embraced or ignored? Summary In this sermon, Dr. Robert Lewis addresses one of the most controversial and pressing issues facing both the church and modern society: the roles and differences of men and women. Against a cultural backdrop that increasingly views gender distinctions as purely social or cultural constructs, Dr. Lewis argues that the Christian understanding of male and female roles must begin not with sociology or psychology, but with theology. Drawing from key New Testament passages—particularly 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2—Dr. Lewis highlights how biblical instructions regarding men and women consistently appeal back to the creation account in Genesis. These appeals, he explains, are meant to transcend culture and root Christian convictions in God's original design. By examining Genesis 1, Dr. Lewis affirms the spiritual equality of men and women as co-bearers of the image of God, while also emphasizing their functional differences as male and female. He challenges the idea that gender differences are limited to biology alone, presenting both biblical teaching and supporting secular research that point to real psychological, social, and relational distinctions. The sermon concludes with a sobering reflection on the societal consequences of abandoning God's design—including weakened families, confused identities, and emotional instability—and a call for believers to resist cultural conformity by renewing their minds through Scripture. Ultimately, Dr. Lewis urges the church to rediscover God's original intent for men and women, trusting that what God declared “very good” remains good today. Outline 1. Introduction: A Difficult and Timely Issue Cultural pressure to redefine male and female The danger of reacting instead of thinking biblically The foundational question: Is this what God intended? 2. Gender Roles as a Theological Issue Why Christians must begin with Scripture The limits of sociological and psychological explanations 3. Controversial New Testament Passages 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2 The shared appeal to the book of Genesis 4. Creation as the Basis for Authority New Testament teaching rooted in creation, not culture God's original intent as the interpretive key 5. Genesis 1: Sameness and Difference Equal image-bearing and spiritual equality “Male and female” as intentional, meaningful distinction 6. Challenging Modern Assumptions The claim that gender differences are merely cultural Scripture's vision of functional and relational differences 7. Biblical Patterns of Role Distinction Leadership in the church and the home Jesus' example and the foundation of the church Complementary responsibilities in family life 8. Scientific and Anthropological Support Psychological and neurological differences Universal social patterns across cultures 9. Consequences of Role Confusion Devaluation of women's roles Sexual, psychological, and relational instability Weakening of the family and impact on children 10. A Call to Renewal and Discernment Resisting conformity to cultural pressures Renewing the mind through Scripture Trusting God's declaration that His design is “very good” Key Takeaways Christian understanding of gender must begin with God's original design. Men and women are equal in spiritual worth as image-bearers of God. “Male and female” implies intentional functional differences, not just biology. New Testament teaching on gender consistently appeals to Genesis, making it trans-cultural. Equality does not require sameness. Both Scripture and secular research affirm meaningful differences between men and women. Confusion about roles contributes to weakened families and personal instability. God's design for men and women is purposeful, wise, and ultimately good. Scripture References 1 Corinthians 11:2–10 – Headship and appeal to creation 1 Timothy 2:9–14 – Roles in teaching and authority grounded in Genesis Genesis 1:24–27 – Creation of humanity in God's image, male and female Genesis 1:31 – God declares His creation “very good” Genesis 5:1–2 – Humanity named together as “man,” male and female Galatians 3:28 – Spiritual equality in Christ Romans 12:2 – Renewal of the mind versus cultural conformity Recorded 1.24.82

Guided Question How can discipline, focus, and a pursuit of divine glory help a Christian run the race of life successfully, avoiding disqualification and achieving spiritual victory? Summary In this sermon, Dr. Robert Lewis uses the imagery of ancient Greek athletics to illustrate the Christian life as a race requiring discipline, direction, and a thirst for divine glory. Drawing from 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, Paul's words about athletes competing for a prize are applied to spiritual growth. Dr. Lewis emphasizes that spiritual victory is exclusive, requires intentional training and direction, and hinges on aiming to please God rather than oneself. Without a clear objective, a Christian risks falling into distraction, indulgence, or disqualification. The sermon challenges listeners to cultivate personal discipline, align their aims with God's purposes, and pursue spiritual “gold medals” by exercising their gifts for His glory. Outline Introduction: The Athlete's Example Story of Theogenes, Greek Olympic champion Greeks' obsession with athletics mirrors the seriousness of spiritual pursuit Athletic imagery sets the stage for understanding spiritual discipline Exclusiveness of Victory and Truth 1 Corinthians 9:24: Only one receives the prize Truth is exclusive: Jesus is the only way to God (John 14:6) Effort and sincerity alone do not guarantee spiritual success Training and Discipline (Verses 25-27) Athletes endure rigorous training; Christians must exercise self-control Discipline complements the Holy Spirit in the believer's life Personal discipline involves denying worldly pleasures for God's glory Direction and Purpose in the Race (Verse 26) Run with a clear aim: not flailing or aimless Importance of knowing spiritual gifts and God's calling Misguided aims (comfort, happiness) lead to ineffective spiritual effort The Danger of Disqualification (Verse 27) Lack of discipline and focus can render a Christian “useless” in service Paul's warning about being disqualified is a call to vigilance Spiritual failure is not only dramatic but can be subtle (indifference, misplaced priorities) Thirst for Divine Glory Motivation should be God's commendation, not human approval Faith, discipline, and direction together ensure fruitful Christian living Scripture references highlight the pursuit of God's pleasure as the ultimate aim (2 Corinthians 5:9; Philippians 3:8-10; Hebrews 12:1-2) Key Takeaways: Spiritual victory requires focused effort and cannot rely solely on sincerity or human commendation. Discipline is essential for growth and complements the work of the Holy Spirit. Knowing one's spiritual aim and gifts ensures purposeful living and avoids becoming a religious “fanatic” or disqualified servant. True Christian motivation is a thirst for divine glory, not comfort, happiness, or human approval. Maintaining clarity of aim allows a believer to run with endurance and remain faithful in service to God. Scripture References: 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 – Paul's athletic analogy for spiritual discipline John 14:6 – Jesus as the exclusive way to God Proverbs 15:32 – Discipline as a reflection of self-respect 2 Corinthians 5:9 – Ambition to please God Philippians 3:8-10 – Counting all else as loss to know Christ Hebrews 11:6 – Faith is required to please God Hebrews 12:1-2 – Running the race with endurance, fixing eyes on Jesus Recorded 12/13/81

Guided Question How does Jesus' identification with humanity through suffering, temptation, and resurrection empower us to reclaim the destiny God originally intended and overcome the fear of death? Summary In this sermon from Hebrews 2, Dr. Robert Lewis reminds listeners of the subtle spiritual drift that occurs when we focus on worldly fears and distractions rather than the truth of Christ. The message encourages believers to redirect attention to the hope and power found in Jesus Christ, who restores humanity's lost destiny through His obedience, suffering, and resurrection. Christ not only experienced the full range of human limitations and temptations but also identifies with humanity, making Him our perfect Savior, high priest, and source of deliverance from the fear of death. The sermon closes with a personal call to invite Jesus into one's life, experiencing His forgiveness and the fullness of God's intended destiny. Outline The Drift Away from Faith (Hebrews 2:1) Modern fears: war, terrorism, crime, economic instability Spiritual drift is subtle but real, like drifting at a beach unnoticed The importance of paying attention to God's Word to prevent spiritual decline Humanity's Lost Destiny and Its Restoration (Hebrews 2:5–9; Psalm 8; Genesis 1:28) Adam's failure resulted in loss of dominion over creation Christ as the Second Adam restores humanity's intended destiny Evidence of Christ's power: miracles, healing, authority over creation Jesus' Suffering and Identification with Humanity (Hebrews 2:9–13) Christ suffered death for all humanity, tasting our sin and limitations Identification with humanity allows Him to call us “brethren” He lived under human limitations, wrestled with faith, and experienced temptation Jesus' Victory Over the Fear of Death (Hebrews 2:14–15; Mark 4:35–41) Death's threat is rendered powerless through Christ's resurrection Fear-driven slavery to the present life is overcome through eternal perspective Christ's bodily resurrection guarantees hope and eternal life Christ as Our Merciful High Priest (Hebrews 2:16–18; 4:15) He gives help to humanity, not angels, fully understanding human struggles Able to sympathize with temptations and provide aid in our times of need Practical implications: we can turn to Jesus in trials and experience His help Call to Personal Faith and Eternal Destiny (Hebrews 2:1–18) Salvation is accessed through faith, not works Invitation to trust Christ, receive forgiveness, and embrace God's intended destiny Assurance of eternal life through the Holy Spirit Key Takeaways: Spiritual drift can happen quietly; staying rooted in God's Word prevents it. Jesus restores humanity's lost destiny, offering hope beyond worldly despair. Christ fully identifies with human struggles, temptations, and suffering. Death's power is nullified through Christ's resurrection. Jesus is our merciful high priest, able to aid us in every struggle. Eternal fulfillment and destiny are accessible through faith in Jesus Christ. Scripture References: Hebrews 2:1–18 Genesis 1:28 Psalm 8 Mark 4:35–41 Isaiah 8:17 Hebrews 4:15 Recorded 11/15/81

Guided Question: How should Christians balance knowledge, liberty, and love when making decisions that affect others in the community of faith? Summary: In this message, Dr. Robert Lewis examines 1 Corinthians 8, where Paul addresses the issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols—a cultural controversy in the Corinthian church. Some believers felt they had the liberty to eat such meat, while others believed it was spiritually wrong, creating tension within the church. Dr. Lewis emphasizes that knowledge alone—knowing what is biblically permissible—is not enough. Knowledge without love can become self-serving, arrogant, and potentially harmful to weaker believers who struggle with their conscience. The core principle is that Christian liberty must be exercised with sensitivity and love. Even when one has the right to act, it may be wiser to limit personal freedoms to avoid causing another believer to stumble. Paul models this in 1 Corinthians 8:13, prioritizing the spiritual well-being of others over his own rights. Dr. Lewis also connects this principle to modern controversies—such as drinking, movies, or holiday traditions—showing that the same principles apply today. Ultimately, Christian freedom is best exercised when it serves God and others, not simply ourselves, fulfilling the law of love as described in Galatians 5. Outline: I. Introduction: Christian Liberty and Controversy Context: Corinthian believers debating meat sacrificed to idols. Modern parallels: Halloween, Easter, movies, alcohol, lifestyle choices. Principle: Being biblically right does not automatically mean acting rightly. II. Knowledge vs. Love (1 Corinthians 8:1-3; 1 Corinthians 13:2) Knowledge alone “puffs up” and can justify self-serving actions. True liberty requires love for God and concern for others. Example: Children arguing using Scripture illustrates knowledge without love. III. Consideration for Weaker Believers (1 Corinthians 8:7-13; Romans 14) Some believers have weak consciences and adverse emotional responses. Exercising liberty without regard for them can cause them to stumble or sin. Illustration: A new Christian from a Muslim background refrains from eating pork to protect his witness and relationships. IV. Application of Christian Liberty Principle: Prioritize others' spiritual well-being over personal rights. Verse 13: Paul forfeits his rights to prevent causing a brother to stumble. Galatians 5:13-14: Freedom should be exercised in love, serving one another. Self-reflection: Are my liberties tempered by how they affect other believers? V. Conclusion The Christian life is lived in community; actions influence others. Love must guide how knowledge and liberty are applied. True freedom is freedom that edifies and protects others. Key Takeaways: Knowledge without love tends to be self-serving and can lead to arrogance. Christian liberty must consider the impact on weaker believers. Being biblically right does not guarantee acting rightly—love must guide action. Exercising personal freedom should never cause others to stumble spiritually. Paul models sacrificial use of liberty to protect fellow believers. Freedom in Christ is best expressed through serving others in love. Scripture References: 1 Corinthians 8:1-13 – Knowledge, love, and the weak believer. 1 Corinthians 13:2 – Knowledge without love is meaningless. Romans 14:14 – Nothing is unclean in itself, but is unclean to the one who thinks it is. Galatians 5:13-14 – Freedom in Christ should be exercised through love, serving one another. Recorded 10.25.81

In this episode of Gangland Wire, I sit down with Salt Lake City author Flats to discuss his book, Ice Pick Willie: The Life and Times of Israel Alderman. We take a deep dive into the shadowy world of Israel “Icepick Willie” Alderman—a largely forgotten but deeply embedded figure in early 20th-century organized crime. Willie's criminal career traces back to Prohibition-era New York, where he began as a jewelry thief before evolving into something far more lethal. His nickname came from his preferred weapon: an ordinary household ice pick. In the 1920s, it was common, inconspicuous, and devastatingly effective. Flats explains how Willie's method allowed him to carry out murders quietly and efficiently, often avoiding the attention that accompanied more public gangland shootings. We follow Willie's movements from New York to Minneapolis and eventually into the orbit of Chicago's violent underworld. Along the way, he intersected with major figures of organized crime, including Meyer Lansky, Charles Luciano, and Bugs Moran. Flats outlines the shifting alliances and rivalries that defined the era, placing Willie within the broader context of gang wars that culminated in events like the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. The conversation also examines Willie's transition from violent enforcer to gambling operative as organized crime evolved and shifted westward. As Las Vegas rose with legalized gambling, figures like Willie adapted—moving from street-level brutality to more structured rackets under established mob leadership. Despite brushing against major historical events and powerful crime bosses, Icepick Willie faded into relative obscurity. Flats and I explore why certain gangsters become legends while others—equally dangerous and influential—slip into the margins of history. We also touch on Willie's odd cultural afterlife, including regional pop-culture references that keep his name alive in unexpected ways. This episode provides both a character study of a cold and calculated killer and a broader examination of how organized crime adapted from Prohibition chaos to structured syndicates. It's a detailed look at a man who operated in the shadows—lethal, efficient, and nearly forgotten. Flats' book, Ice Pick Willie: The Life and Times of Israel Alderman, is available now on Amazon. Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee” Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information. To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here.  To purchase one of my books, click here. Transcript [0:00] Hey, welcome all you wiretappers. Good to be back here in the studio of Gangland [0:03] Wire. This is Gary Jenkins. As most of you, I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective turned podcaster and documentary filmmaker. I got a couple of documentary films you can rent on Amazon if you choose. I’ll have links in the show notes. Or just go to Amazon and search my name and you’ll find my stuff. But anyhow, today I have a friend of mine from Salt Lake City called Flats. And he’s just Flats, all right? And he’s written a book about a man named Icepick Willie. Now, Icepick Willie has got a great, cool nickname. I’m surprised that he didn’t last through history a little better because people had an easy-to-remembering cool nickname. His real name is Israel Alderman. Now, Flats has been researching him. He got a hold of me because I did a show on David Berman, who ended up in Las Vegas. He was a Jewish gambler from Minneapolis. And ice pick ends up out there connected to him somehow. And I didn’t really stumble. I stumbled a little bit across that, but I couldn’t remember what it was. But anyhow, welcome flats. [1:09] Glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me. All right. Go ahead. I’m sorry. I’m always open for any chance to talk about Ice Pick Willie, one of my favorite people. And if you guys out there know anything about Ice Pick Willie, get a hold of me and I’ll connect you up with Flats. And I’ll have his Gmail in the show notes. But either that or get a hold of me pretty easy. Any rumors or stories, lies, anything about him. [1:38] But in the meantime, in a couple of weeks, actually, by the time this podcast is out, that book’s going to be up on Amazon. But you can always go back. You can always pull those down and add more information in and then put them back up if you want. So that’s a good way to go. Nicknames are interesting. I once talked about doing a show on nicknames and how people got them, and I just never got around to it. And many times you can see how people get their nicknames. Al Capone, Scarface Al. He’s got the big scar on his face, right? Here’s one. One of Icepick’s Willie’s contemporaries, a guy named Albert, was it Tannenbaum? Yeah, Tannenbaum. And he was called Tick Tock. And I looked that up because, like I said, he was a contemporary of Icepick Willie’s. And he got the name Tick Tock because somebody said you move all the time. You’re always like a watch. You’re Tick Tocking all the time. And, of course, there’s Anthony Accardo, who they called Joe Batters. And his guys gave him that. They used to call him Joe. And that was because he beat up somebody with a baseball bat so bad that Al Capone said, you’re a real Joe batters. But he also, many times the press will give people these nicknames. And they gave Anthony Accardo the nickname of the big tuna because he was big. And they had a picture of him with a huge big tuna he had caught. There’s Joe Bananas Bonnano. That speaks for itself, Joe Bananas. And I think the press gave him that. First question, Flats, you know how Icepick Willie got his nickname? The nickname came… [3:06] From when he was in Minneapolis, he apparently picked it up. And this is something which he admitted to later on in his life. He claimed to have taken about 11, 12 victims out by using an ice pick in the ear. [3:27] And ice picks were actually really common back in the 20s everywhere. People had them. Everyone had them in their homes. and they were a real popular tool among Murder Incorporated members. It’s a handy thing, small, quiet kind of a tool. [3:49] Normally, a knife-pick killing was something that took maybe three or four people, not counting the victim. They’d crowd around him and grab his arms, whatever, and then somebody’d do him, they’d haul him off. Uh, Willie had managed to turn this into a one man operation. He’d take his victim. [4:11] He’d be up at the bar with a drinking buddy, get this guy really liquored up, and he’d slip his ice pick out of his jacket. Boom, real quick in the air, ice pick’s gone, the guy’s down on the bar. Not much blood because it’s an ice pick. Forensics wasn’t real hot back in the 20s, so a lot of times they would diagnose this as a brain aneurysm. But the guy would slump over the bar, drunk, dead drunk, and then they’d just haul him off. The story is they’d take him in the back room, he’d go down the coal chute, which everybody had back then, out into a truck, they’d haul off the body. The people that went down the coal chute, they were all pretty much forgotten. But Willie, he seemed to have stuck around. Now, in Minneapolis, apparently he’s still a real popular figure. Memorable, which is funny because Minneapolis, for all my research, is the place there is the least documented evidence about. [5:19] But that seems to be that and Las Vegas are where he’s best known. There’s even a company in Minneapolis that does a nail polish they named Ice Rick Willie. It’s a popular culture thing there. Yeah. Now, did he start out in New York with Erlansky? He started out in New York. He grew up on the Lower East Side. Like so many people, Benny Siegel and Meyer, everybody came from there. Early on, and back by the 20s, Meyer had hooked up with Charlie Luciano, and most of the serious Jewish gangsters came under Meyer’s umbrella, so to speak. And this Willie supposedly, according to another author, this is when Willie hooked up with Meyer, was early on during Prohibition. But Willie didn’t start out as a bootlegger. He started out with a bunch of jewelry store robbers, but they were pretty notorious at him. God, his first record of him was, oh, when was it? About 1925. [6:34] He got a charge for robbery. Not a lot of details on it. The charge was dismissed, and it seems to be a pretty common thing throughout his entire life as far as resolution of his legal issue. But anyway, then right after Christmas, that’s in year 25, he was going by Izzy Alderman back then. Israel, Izzy was his nickname. He didn’t get into Willie till later, but he went into with a couple other guys and they hit a jewelry store for about $75,000 worth of jewelry. Oh, wow. That’s a pretty good chunk of change back then. That’s a score, man. That is a real score back then. Oh, yeah. And then a few months later, along with a couple other people, he hit another jewelry store in the Bronx, William Sims Robbery. This one was pretty well publicized. And they go in, they take the, everybody there, the owner, employees, customers, tie them up, they’re in the back room, they grab trays full of gems, usually diamonds, they’re out the door, never even touched the cash register. So they got about a hundred grand on that. Got away. Next morning. [7:59] Another jeweler, Sam Candle, as he was opening up his shop to let a friend in, some guys come pushing into the door. Izzy’s with them again. Once more, the same M.O., everybody’s in the back room tied up. Another hundred grand or so worth the gems. So they’re doing pretty good by now. Wow, yeah. I assume that whenever they fenced them, did you find out much about how they fenced them? Did the Italians get a piece of the action? Did they make him pay up, or did Meyer Lansky get a piece of that? I’m sure that Meyer was somehow connected to this. He got a piece of everything that was going on in the Jewish world. And originally, at that point in time, there was not a lot of interaction between the Italian mobsters and the Jewish mobsters. They had their own little thing that they kept to themselves. They felt safer that way. They could trust everybody. It was actually pretty much Meyer and Charlie Luciano that moved things past that point. I see. But up till then, everything was coming under Meyer’s thing. So they were doing pretty good until they did a robbery. [9:19] There was a jeweler, Aaron Roddark. Now, about 18 months earlier, he’d had an attempted robbery where he had shot and killed one of the robbers as they were running out of the store. So he got a bunch of publicity called the Fighting Jewelers in the press, a popular guy. About a year and a half later, another crew walks in. This is Izzy’s crew. [9:50] When they come in, same thing, the fighting jeweler, he goes for his gun. Doesn’t work out so well this time. This time, he’s shot and killed. But they didn’t get any jewels. They take off again. [10:05] But now they’re hot. This is big news. Fighting jewelers murdered. Big publicity, big public outcry. And cops are looking for them hot and heavy by now. [10:17] And by now, so a few weeks, couple weeks after the fighting jewelers murdered, one of Izzy’s crew was picked up, coming out of a doctor’s office, for a gunshot wound, where he’d been treated. Cots get word of this, they pick him up, and he immediately starts confessing to all the jewelry store robbers, giving up partners. They pick up a couple more people pretty soon everybody is just singing like canary it’s like the mormon tavern fire or something so the cops are looking for everybody they haven’t got they pick up almost everybody the two people are missing from the last robbery where the guy was murdered is Izzy Alderman and one of the other guys Robert Byrd. [11:09] So Izzy and Robert they know they’re hot They’ve got warrants out. They know the police are looking. They’ve got this information because they’re connected to whoever. So they leave town. They’re on their way to Chicago. They’re going to go there to hide out, take care of business for a couple reasons. One is Robert Berg has brother, Ollie, who is tied in with the Northside Bugs Moran gang in Chicago. Ago, Holly is also a jewelry driver and right about the time, right before. [11:47] His brother, Robert, gets to Chicago. Ollie and a couple guys are on an Illinois Central commuter train. They robbed three jewelry salesmen while they’re on the train of their jewels, managed to get off the train and get away. They got picked up about 12 hours later, though. So now his brother, Ollie, is in prison again, of course. But Robert is connected. They have connections to the Northside gang. Through the brother, through Ollie. And this is a safe place for them to go, relatively safe. At that point in time, Chicago’s got the beer wars going on, and so it wasn’t a real safe place to be. But they had out there, they’re there maybe a week or so. The cops raid a hotel room, they pick up Robert Burke. They also find a bunch of jewelry, which they trace back to the New York robbery. So they know this is all tied together now. They don’t get Willie. Izzy is still at that point. So Robert Berg, now he’s back to New York going to prison too. Izzy needs a new partner. Berg had a guy he was running around with, Red McLaughlin. [13:06] Red’s partner’s in jail, and Izzy’s partner’s in jail, so they came up a little bit. But now Red already at this point the cops are looking for him hot and heavy in Chicago a little while before they found him. [13:24] The cops saw him on the side of the road, Red was on the running board of the car, reaching through the window, choking the driver. The driver turned out to be, of course, a jewelry salesman with the jewelry in the car. Red explained to the cop that his friend was just having some kind of a fit, and he was trying to help him. The cop wasn’t going for it, and so Red was off to jail. He managed to get bailed out. And as soon as he’s out, he just goes off on all kinds of things. By now, the cops are looking for him for being involved in some kidnappings and bootlegging and murders. One newspaper article called him the man of a hundred brides. He’s like Lon Chaney of the criminal world or something. So now the cops are really hot after Red. He’s junk bail. He’s doing all this other stuff. There they raid a hotel, the Webster Hotel in Chicago. They’ve got a tip. That’s where they’re going to find him. Yeah. They don’t find Red, but they find his buddy in there. They find him, and he’s got a suitcase full of guns. [14:38] But no, he knows this is turned out to be actually Izzy Alderman, but he knows the cops are looking for Izzy Alderman. So he tells the cops his name’s Robert Lewis. They don’t know any better. Things are different back then. Yeah. He also told them that he was a bootlegger from Detroit. And that, I guess, would explain having a suitcase full of guns. And when they get ready to arrest him, he tells the cops they’re going to be wasting their time because he says he has some high connections in the illegal liquor business in town here. And apparently he was right because all of his charges were dismissed as soon as they haul him in once again. Back then, it seemed in Chicago, because of Al Capone, Bugs Moran. [15:30] New York with Meyer and Charlie, Prohibition contributed to it a lot. Corruption was just fantastic. So you could buy your people’s way out of everything, which was nice if that’s what you were doing. Yeah so anyway Robert Bird disappears and now Willie all of his partners all of his connections everybody’s locked up missing dead something he’s out of work again but he’s in Chicago since 1927 they’re in the middle of the beer wars he’s a starker a tough muscle man starker’s Jewish term so he hooks up right away They were Bugs Moran on the North side. Bugs is more, the Bugs Moran gang, they were people like Frank Foster, Ed Newberry. He had other Jewish gangsters working with him at the time. So Lizzie fit in pretty good. And it isn’t long at all, maybe a month later, he gets cops pull over a car. They find Frank Foster and Izzy Alderman in there. And they’ve got guns, of course. And once again, the charges just disappear. Everybody goes on their way. [16:51] So things are rolling along. The beer wars are going good. And now we get into the taxi cab wars. because in Chicago back then, that’s how you settled everything. You had a war. There were two cab companies mostly going on in Chicago at the time, and they were shooting up each other’s cab offices and throwing bombs and shooting up cabs. So the Yellow Cab Company puts out a hefty reward for the people involved, which leads to another made by the cops on this time. It was a Broadway apartment where there were supposed to be people involved in all of this. [17:30] Among the people they find, first off, Frank Foster, who at the time was a high-ranking member of Bugs Moran’s group on the north side. They also find another bunch of people, one of them named Harry Davidson. This was, again, Izzy Alderman, but he knew that the cops were looking for Izzy Alderman, and they were looking for Robert Lewis by then. So that was Harry Davidson, and that worked out. And, of course, everybody gets charged with concealed weapons, and then the charges are dropped, and catch and release. Yeah, catch and release Chicago. It was really interesting. So shortly after this, of course, this is 1929 in Chicago, and it’s Valentine’s Day. We all know what happened there. Now this brought major heat, major attention from everyone nationwide, the student. [18:30] And surprisingly, later in life, like I said, he used to almost brag about his activity as he got older. One of the things he would tell people is that he missed the St. Valentine’s Day massacre because he was in the bathroom. Yeah, I was going to say, he missed that. The bathroom wasn’t in SMT partage, if that was the case. They had an outhouse, Flats. They had an outhouse out back. That’s true. Yeah, he was close enough to do that activity. Yeah. He was just caught up in the middle of all the major things happening throughout Gangland at that point in time. Really? How does he end up in Minneapolis? It’s reasonably close to Chicago, and there are some connections. It is. [19:19] Before he ends up back in Minneapolis, first he ends up back in New York. What happens now in New York, they’ve got their own problems going on between the two gangs back then. Yeah, they had the Castle Marie’s War during that time, I believe, or sometime around then. It broke out. Actually, it happens right after he gets shot. But as he gets picked up, there’d been a shooting that they had. First, they had the Easter Massacre, where a few people get shot up. And then the Fox Lake Massacre. Like I said, everything in Chicago was wars or massacres. And by the time the Fox Lake massacre happened, it was after the Valentine’s Day thing. Izzy Alderman, Frank Foster, Ted Newberry, and probably at least 6, 8, 10 other people affected. They left the Northside gang, and they moved south and joined up with El Capote. [20:21] Obviously, they could see where everything’s going. I mean, everyone at the outside is winning. But the authorities were aware of it. So after the Easter massacre and the Fox Lake massacre, now the cops know there’s going to be all kinds of retaliation. Fox Lake thing, Al Capone’s people got shot up. So cops are out on the street looking for people. They pull over a car racing down the street. They find Frank Foster, Izzy Alderman again, out with their guns. Once again, they get hauled in, arrested, catching release. Shortly after this, now we get a reporter, Jake Lingle. Jake Lingle, he was crooked. He was on the take. He was one of these $65 a week reporters who vacations in Hawaii and has an apartment on Lake George Drive, that kind of thing. He even said he had a fancy piece of gold jewelry that was a gift from Al Capone. Anyway, he gets into trouble with people there. He gets killed. [21:32] Now, everybody knows you can’t. The people you don’t kill are cops and newsmen. Jake Lengel gets killed, and now, once again, it’s like St. Valentine’s Day all over again. Big public outcry. Cops are hot and heavy. They know somehow Izzy Alderman is somehow tied into this. Frank Foster’s tied into it. So they’re hunting them. And a few months later, a cop spots Izzy. He’s in a restaurant with another guy, Joe Condi. They’re eating dinner. Cop recognized Izzy because he was really, which is surprising, he was really well known then to the cops, to the press, to other gangsters. [22:19] And yet today, who was Izzy Aldenman? Who was Ice-Pick Willie? So time goes by. But the cop spots him, recognizes him, grabs, snatters him up, and arrests him. As soon as they come out of the restaurant, runs him in for questioning for the Lingle murder. They get him in. There’s nothing they can tie him to the Lingle case with. So they charge him with vagrants. This is a new deal, a new tool that prosecutors are using in Chicago. Yeah. We know you’re a gangster. We can’t prove anything, so we’re going to arrest you for vagrancy because you have no physical means of support. You don’t have a job. [23:07] When Izzy was arrested at this time, he had about $650 in his pocket. This is worth like over 12 grand today so yeah the economy’s good when vagrants are carrying that kind of money obviously but they get arrested charged with first they’re brought in before a judge one judge mccordy he says there’s nothing to hold them on the lingual thing so they’re free to go the minute they walk out of the court building they get arrested charged with vacancy taken in front of another judge, Judge Lyle. Now, Judge Lyle, he’s known, he’s a holy terror when it comes to gangsters. He’s just after them. And even he admits the vagrancy thing, I’m not sure it’s really valid, but we’re going to charge you anyway. First thing is, he says, is I want a lawyer. So the judge tells the court reporter, the defendant has no comment at this time. And then in what’s probably the shortest trial in history, Izzy and his buddy are found guilty. [24:21] And shipped away to jail in a matter of like 10 minutes or something. How long was the sentence for? How long was the sentence for? They were sentenced to six months in jail. Okay. Surveillance. Okay. So now their lawyer comes back, goes back to the first judge, McGordy, who had released them on the Lingle chart. [24:49] And he convinced her, I don’t know, for whatever reason, Judge McGurdy says, no, I have jurisdiction in this case because they were brought before me first. And so he issues a bond and sets them free again. As soon as they walk out of the courthouse, they’re re-arrested again for vagrancy. At this point, their lawyer, the lawyer’s upset. And he’s telling, he tells the cops, that’s it. If you’re going to take them in on this bullshit again, you got to take me too. So they all went down to the station, the lawyer with them, charged with vagrancy again, locked up. Judge Lyle, like I say, Judge Lyle was not a friend of these people. He missed their fail at $10,000 on the vagrancy charge. And then he immediately changed it to $20,000 a piece because he was afraid they might make the $10,000 bail. These vagrants, mind you. So they’re backed off in jail. [25:56] Late that night, the lawyer, who’s also out of jail at this point, finds another judge who is either totally unaware of this case or he’s very aware of it. Either way, this judge says, oh, no, that’s way too much bail for vagrancy. The bail should be $100 for that. And as he says, they’re bailing at $100. They’re out again. Boom. So the next day, they go to court facing the, vagrancy charge in front of Judge Lyle. Judge Lyle immediately says, no, your bond was issued falsely, charges him with another $20,000 bail, has him re-arrested. Oh, my God. So they get their bond reduced to $10,000. They bail out of jail. They go to court. [26:51] Finally, on the vagrancy charges, maybe a month later. They’ve been dealing with this now for almost two months. Vagrancy charge. First day of the actual vagrancy trial, Izzy goes in, they arrest him for the burglaries back in New York, charging with hoax. So now they’re ignoring the vagrancy charge. They’ve got him locked up. They’re holding him for extradition to New York. He fights this still. He holds out finally in December, just a couple days before Christmas. He ends up back in New York to face the vagrants. He’s charged with the robberies and the murder of the fighting jeweler. Finally, everything gets dropped back in New York. You know, this is Meyer and Charlie’s area. All the charges are dropped. He’s free and clear again. He’s back home, so he sticks around. and it’s just in time because, as you mentioned, the Castle Marie’s war breaks out like a month later. [27:57] There’s no actual evidence, a lot of evidence of his involvement, but coincidentally, he is charged with murder about a month after the war breaks out. And, of course, his charges drop again, too, like they are. And then as the war goes on, first, Charlie Luciano, he swapped, changed his sides, they whacked Joe the boss, and then they set up Maranzano. [28:27] And Salvador Marenzano gets shot and killed in a restaurant, supposedly by a hit squad of Jewish gangsters that Meyer organized, because Meyer and Charlie were pretty close at this point in time. It isn’t sure who all was involved in that. Benny Siegel was supposed to be one of the shooters. And there’s no mention of Izzy being involved in it, but once again, just coincidentally, he left for France a couple of weeks after the shooting, where he stays until the end of the year when they first held at a couple of conferences. The one where Charlie Luciano organized pretty much the Italian crime family And then a couple months later, Meyer had one where he organized Jewish people, except Meyer had more of a national thing, whereas Charlie’s was more of the New York Five family kind of thing. [29:37] So anyway, at this time, I guess moving along here, Dave Berman, as you’re familiar with, being a Jewish mobster out of the Midwest, he’d come under Meyer’s umbrella. And then in 1927, he gets called to New York. He ends up in New York. At the time, Meyer, the Bugs and Meyer gang, especially being Budgie Siegel and Meyer Lansky, had this thing going where they were kidnapping rival bootleggers. Bootlegging was big business. Meyer was taking control of all of that. It was coming, especially coming in from Canada, which is where the Midwest came in, coming in by boatloads from Canada. We were drinking Canada Dry. Yeah, good one. So Dave Berman, he ends up in New York. Another bootlegger named Abe Sharlin gets kidnapped. [30:45] And the family agrees to pay like a $50,000 ransom to get him back. So when the two guys show up to collect the ransom, instead of a pile of money, there’s a pile of cops waiting for him. Immediately, a shootout breaks out. The one guy jumps out of the car, pulls out his gun, big shootout, people running everywhere. One guy shot and killed. The other guy, he surrenders. That’s Dave Berman. So Dave Berman, it’s, doing this for Meyer, but the cops don’t know that for sure. But they arrest him. He’s off to Sing for seven years for kidnapping. [31:27] Actually, back then, Sing, the prison in Ossining, New York, sat on the river, and so most people sent there, prisoners were shipped up there by boat. That’s where the term sent up the river. I didn’t realize that. Cool. So he does his time while he’s locked up there there’s not a lot of Willie doesn’t show up a lot but there is one specific mention of him, B Kittle he was a nightclub singer back in the early 30s young girl goes to New York chasing her dream ends up working at the nightclub that just happens to be to hang out for the mobsters. She doesn’t know this, but… And actually, she ends up marrying Mo Sedway later on. And Mo Sedway was one of Meyer Lansky’s close people, Benny’s people. She does remark, though, that she remembers there were two guys she’d always see sitting over at a table in the corner drinking together. One of them, she said, was Izzy Alderman, who she said was a lieutenant for Moe Sedway, and the other was Fat Irish Green. [32:51] Fat Irish Green was Benny’s bodyguard, hang-around-everywhere kind of guy. We always see the same people popping up all through this thing. Izzy’s plugged into this bunch. So anyway, we jump ahead a couple years. Dave Berman gets out of prison. Gets out of prison immediately. Meets up with Mo Sedway and Meyer and Charlie, everybody there. Dave’s been a stand-up guy. He kept his mouth shut about everything. He took his beef. He was good about it. But the story goes, they offer him a million dollars in cash for his loyalty. Fire took the judge. More employers should be like him. [33:42] Dave said he didn’t want the money. He wanted to be, he wanted control of gambling in Minneapolis. His mother lived there. His brother, Chickie, was there running small-time gambling thing. That’s where he wanted to go. And they say, okie-dokie, which I think is a good example of the influence, shall we say, that the East Coast group had over the rest of the country. They can just, I’ll give you this city in the Midwest. But before A.V. heads there, interestingly enough, there’s a couple of treasury bond robberies, big treasury bond robberies that happened in New York. They need total like over $2 million. [34:31] Big bucks and the FBI tracks down some of the bonds to a Minneapolis gangster, so when they arrest him along with him the Minneapolis gangster his name was Royce Boris Royce not that it’s a big deal but with him they pick up Davey Berman Davey the Jew is what he was called at that time they weren’t quite as politically correct, They got Dave Berman, they got Moe Subway, and there was a guy that the newspapers called, one account called him Jacob Irish Greenberg, and another one called him Jack Green Greenberg. So this would have been Fat Irish Green, it was Jacob Greenberg. [35:21] Once again, by the time it was done, acquittals all the way around. Wonderful things for him. Now Davey Berman pays off to Minneapolis to join his brother in the gambling thing. He gets there. Brother Chickie was running gambling initially. Isidore, or Kid Khan, was in charge. Isidore Bloomfield was in charge of the Minneapolis thing. And his brother, Yiddy Bloom. Yeah. But, of course, Davey’s here now. Since Kid Khan and his bunch were also Jewish popsters, that means they are linked to Meyer. And when Meyer says, okay, here’s Davey, now that’s how it goes. Davey immediately starts expanding the gambling joints into horse booking and race wire and craft games and everything. And he’s a good businessman. He’s sharp. And he’s learned a lot, apparently, from Meyer because he knows how to keep his name and people out of the name. Back then in Minneapolis, they had a deal. It was called the O’Connor Existence. [36:41] For the it was a deal that the local police had with gangster you could come to our town, and we won’t bother you we’ll leave you alone three conditions you check in with us when you get here so we know you’re here you of course make various payments to the necessary police and city officials and it was an orphan’s fund to the widows and orphans fund the police, and you promised that you will not commit any crimes major crimes while you’re in twin cities minneapolis st paul and if they’d agree to that they could stay there safely no matter who was looking for them so this also made it kind of more attractive i think for dave burman and people like him because obviously all you got to do is pay people off you’re good to go yeah kind of like the hot springs of the north, huh? Oh, yeah. So, once again, with this kind of ability, you don’t find a lot of mention of. [37:52] Dave Berman or his crew, especially in Minneapolis, and some of the police records have been lost there over the years. So that made it a little harder, too, to track things down. There are a couple of interesting things. For example, now, part of the Berman crew, one of them especially was Slippy Sherr, a guy named Phillip Sherr. They went by Slippy. He was really an interesting sort of guy. He was definitely a violent person he was constantly charged with assaults and murders and of course the charges were always dropped there was one occasion he was out with some friends in a bar they end up in an argument with the bar owner turns into a fight the bar owner goes outside flags down a motorcycle cop who’s going by the motorcycle cop goes back in with the bar owner and they proceed to get in a fist fight with Flippy and his friends, they get lumped up pretty good. Later, when they go to court. [39:01] The officer made a remark in court about, he said, all in all, it was pretty fair fight all the way around. And he said, for the most part, they’re pretty nice guys when they’re not drinking. Yeah. So aren’t we all? He was that kind of the guy Flippi was bollocked, Oh, another example of that. Willie ends up, by the time he hits Minneapolis, he’s become Willie Alden. He’s given up the Izzy thing, trying to put that behind him. Now, his focus is gambling. He’s like Dave Berman. It’s a muscle, maybe, behind Dave Berman. But he’s mellowed out a lot, and you don’t hear a lot about him. In one incident, though, they were golfers of all things. They loved golfing. And this is the 30s. So, of course, they can only golf at the Jewish golf course. Jewish people weren’t allowed at the regular country club. They’re out golfing. Flippy, sure, he would always join them. We wanted to force them. They didn’t deal with golf well. They’d get upset easily. I know the feeling. I know. [40:19] So on one occasion, Flippi slices a ball over into a neighboring farmer’s field. There’s an 18-year-old kid over there farming his potato crop. And Flippi, being argumentative, is a problem breaks out over the ball, him and this kid. Pretty soon, Flippi’s over there in the field. First, he starts wailing on the kid with his fist. And then he starts beating on him with his golf club until he knocks him out. Oh, man. This is like a $30,000 golf club. Game for flippy by the time it’s over and probably got extra strokes on that hole while he was there. [41:03] That the berman crew ran in minneapolis was 613 hennepin this was they were regularly it seemed like it was an annual thing it’s probably a deal they hadn’t once a year the cops would hit 613 Hennepin, they’d raid it, they’d charge him with gambling, whatever, and they’d pay their fine, let it go. But like clockwork, if you check the newspapers, once a year, it’s 13 Hennepin. So finally, last time, 1940, they go in, and now their cops are hyped. Big, great, they ain’t got all these cops, they’re ready to get the door down, charge in. To get there, Doors are wide open. Cop belt all run in. There’s still hot coffee on the stove. There’s a chalkboard full of all the race results. Everything but people. The places. There’s nobody in the place. This upset him made more of an embarrassment, I think, than anything for the police. He finally got beat out on that one. [42:09] That was 613 Hennepin. Was that the address and the name of the spot, 613 Hennepin? Or was that Hennepin’s like a common name up in Minneapolis? It was called the TMA Club. Okay, and the address was 613 Hennepin. Yeah, it actually had a couple of different names, But the address, no matter what club was at that address, whatever they called, it was the same thing. Yeah, I got you. They just sold. Now, about this time, this is late 1930s, of course, I’m sure you’re familiar with the Silver Church thing, the support group, so to speak, in the States, right? Yeah, yeah. And Judge Perlman from New York got a hold of Meyer Lansky. Yeah. See if he could offer assistance. And among the people that Meyer called was Dave Berman, of course, in Minneapolis. And Dave said, sure, I’d be glad to help. And Willie would be glad to help, too. Dave was a little nervous about Willie’s assistance because they really didn’t want anybody killed. And he wasn’t sure about that with Willie. But as it turns out, they said that Silver Shirts held their meeting at the Elks Club in town. and J.B. Berman showed up with some friends and baseball bats. [43:32] It took him about 10 minutes to clear the place out. A couple more go-rounds like this and the silver shirts, all the… [43:42] Nazi groups, neo-Nazis, whatever, they changed their mind about having these kind of meetings there. Like in New York, when they had Nuremeyer brought his people in, they were not extremely friendly to the Nazis, which is understandable. So the Silver Shirts complained to the mayor, Mayor LaGuardia, demanding protection for their rallies and their marches. And the mayor is obligated by law to protect them, to provide them with the support. And he did. He rounded up all of the black and Jewish officers he could find and assigned them to that duty. His mother was Jewish. Yeah, crazy times. It’s hard to believe. If you don’t read it in history yourself, you wouldn’t know it. It’s really something that’s been a gift under the rug. We had those Nazi sympathizers right up to World War II. It was crazy. Oh, it was amazing. People like Charles Lindbergh, Henry Ford, who wrote The International Jew. At one time, if you bought a new Ford, you’d get a free copy of that book. [44:57] I read that somewhere, The International Jew, that Jewish conspiracy that’s supposed to take over the world and have all the money and everything. Yeah, that’s interesting. That’s ridiculous. They just want to take over gambling. It’s obvious. Yeah, really. Then they wanted to move all these guys you mentioned, Mo Sedway and Mayor Lansky, of course, and Buggy Siegel. They all end up out in Las Vegas. They take it all to Las Vegas, don’t they? Yeah, and like I said, right from the very beginning, you’ll see the same name over and over. Benny Siegel, Gus Greenbaum, Joe Stacker. They had an amazing bunch. And if you look at it, most of them died in bed. Yeah. [45:43] It was a whole different, probably, mindset than you’d see with the Italian gangsters at that time. These are people who managed to stay out of jail, stay out of the press, and stay out of the ground and make money. Yeah. A FBI agent here in Kansas City gave me a quote one time on a documentary I was doing. He was talking about this national crime syndicate. And he said, yeah, he said, the Italians provided the brawn, and the Jews provided the brains. Pretty much how well you got to Vegas, obviously the Jewish groups around the country had been running gambling. They were smart. Meyer especially was a visionary. This guy was a genius in Meyer’s mind. And he could see that, obviously, Prohibition, as wonderful as it was for them, wasn’t going to last forever. But he could see the future in gambling. And I’m sure he didn’t foresee Las Vegas back when Prohibition was repealed, but he did see the direction things were going. [46:55] He developed gambling all over the country. And then when Vegas came along, this was just a wonderful thing for legalized gambling. They had the expertise, the experience, the knowledge, all they needed. Because opening casino is an expensive venture, so they needed more money. The Italians provided extra cash, and the Jewish groups had all the experience and the knowledge to run there. That’s where, back in the one conference, the Fraconia conference that Meyer organized, where he organized the Jewish groups around the nation, at that time he convinced, both groups were convinced that it was time that they start working together and not be at odds with them. with each other. Yeah, no, it was actually, it turned out to be a real profitable agreement as time went on. Yeah, especially in Las Vegas, so. [47:55] I’ll tell you what, Flatsy, it’s a hell of a book. That’s a hell of a story you’ve got there, guys. [48:00] We’re not going to disclose everything because we’ve got to go on out to Las Vegas, but we’re not going to disclose everything. We want you to buy that book. It really sounds interesting. It’s really a walk through the history and the expansion of organized crime from the early days from the Castle of Racey War and Chicago and the Beer Wars to Minneapolis and on out to Las Vegas. It’s a hell of a story. and Ice-Pick Willie was there for all of it, it sounds to me like. That’s what I found so amazing is pretty much every major event in gangland history at that point in time, he would somehow evolve there. And yet, here like 50 years or so after he’s dead, nobody even remembers him. They will now. The people he knew, the people he associated with, the things he’s seen, what a life really guys the book is Ice Pick Willie the life and times of Israel Alderman and the author is Flats F-L-A-T-S and I will have a link to that book on Amazon when this comes out so thanks a lot Flats I really appreciate you coming on and telling those stories, you betcha thanks for having me.

Guided Question: How does Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 7 shape our understanding of singleness, marriage, and undistracted devotion to Christ, and what practical applications does it have for Christians today? Summary: Dr. Robert Lewis explores 1 Corinthians 7 with a focus on singleness, showing how Paul's guidance offers both theological insight and practical wisdom. The single life, Paul argues, has distinct advantages over married life, particularly in the ability to devote oneself fully to Christ without divided interests. While marriage is not condemned, the single life allows greater flexibility, opportunity, and focus for spiritual service, and may even be the ideal lifestyle for some. Dr. Lewis emphasizes that singleness should be viewed as a gift and opportunity, not a restriction, and encourages both singles and married Christians to live with eternity in mind, subordinating temporal concerns to their devotion to God. The sermon also touches on widows, showing that older widows who dedicate their lives to Christ serve as examples of purpose and vitality, inspiring the church. Throughout, practical illustrations, historical examples, and anecdotes highlight how undistracted devotion can impact individuals and the broader Christian community. Outline: Introduction Recognition of the increasing number of singles in the church. Importance of addressing singles directly (1 Corinthians 7). Paul's Instructions on Singleness “Now concerning virgins…”: Paul's opinion is trustworthy, guided by the Spirit. Conditions for remaining single (verses 25–35): Temporal considerations: “present distress” in the first-century church. Theological considerations: “time has been shortened,” eternal perspective prioritizes Christ over marriage. Advantages of Singleness Undistracted devotion to the Lord (verses 32–34). Flexibility and freedom to serve. Opportunity to focus on prayer, study, ministry, and service without divided interests. Practical Illustrations Daily life comparisons between singles and married individuals. Anecdotes emphasizing the freedom and productivity of single life. Historical examples of influential singles (Joseph, C.S. Lewis, John R. Stott, Billy Graham's mentors, etc.). Conditions for Choosing Singleness Verse 36–38: Control: ability to resist sinful desires. Conviction: firm decision in one's heart to remain single for undistracted devotion. Marriage is permissible if control or conviction is lacking. Widows and Dedication to Christ 1 Timothy 5:9: Recognition of widows committed to service. Older widows serve as examples of purpose, vitality, and ongoing mission. Conclusion & Practical Application Singles: embrace advantages, focus on God, use time and energy wisely. Married individuals: remember marriage is temporary in light of eternity. Life's ultimate focus should be Jesus Christ, not temporal concerns. Encouragement to serve God undistractedly, impacting church and world. Key Takeaways: Singleness is a gift and an opportunity for spiritual focus and ministry. Marriage is not wrong, but it inherently divides attention between family and God. Temporal concerns (career, wealth, social expectations) should not overshadow devotion to Christ. Undistracted devotion requires both control over desires and conviction in one's heart. Widows who dedicate their lives to God exemplify purposeful living beyond marriage. Historical examples demonstrate the lasting impact of single individuals in God's kingdom. Scripture References: 1 Corinthians 7:1–40 – Paul's instructions on marriage and singleness. Hebrews 10:32–34 – The “present distress” of first-century Christians. Matthew 22:30 – Marriage does not exist in the resurrection. 2 Peter 3:15 – Paul's letters recognized as Scripture. 1 Timothy 5:9 – Guidelines for recognizing widows dedicated to Christ. Recorded 10/11/81

Author and speaker Robert Lewis offers advice and encouragement to dads in a discussion based on his best-selling book Raising a Modern-Day Knight: A Father's Role in Guiding His Son to Authentic Manhood.

Author and speaker Robert Lewis offers advice and encouragement to dads in a discussion based on his best-selling book Raising a Modern-Day Knight: A Father's Role in Guiding His Son to Authentic Manhood.

Guided Question How does God want us to view and use our bodies in a culture that either idolizes pleasure or dismisses the body as unimportant? Summary In this message, Dr. Robert Lewis unpacks Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 6:12–20, addressing the Corinthian church's misunderstanding of Christian freedom and the body. Influenced by the prevailing Epicurean philosophy—“pleasure is the goal of life”—many in Corinth justified sexual indulgence with slogans like “All things are lawful for me” and “Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food.” Paul responds by clarifying that while Christians have freedom in Christ, not all things are beneficial, nor should believers be mastered by anything. The body is not a throwaway vessel for pleasure but an eternal instrument designed for the Lord. Because our bodies are members of Christ, sexual immorality is a profound contradiction to our union with Him. Paul calls believers to flee immorality and reminds them that their bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. True intimacy is not found in physical indulgence but in spiritual union with Christ. The cure for immorality is not legalistic rule-keeping but learning to “think Jesus,” cultivating fellowship with the indwelling Spirit, and glorifying God in body and spirit. Outline Context and Background Paul in Athens and Corinth (Acts 17). Epicurean vs. Stoic philosophies shaping Corinthian culture. Epicurean emphasis on pleasure over truth. Corinthian Misunderstandings of Freedom (1 Cor. 6:12–13) Slogans: “All things are lawful” and “Food is for the stomach.” Paul's clarifications: Is it profitable? Will it master me? Freedom in Christ is not license for indulgence. The Body's Eternal Purpose (1 Cor. 6:14) God raised Christ's body and will raise ours. The body is eternal and central to salvation. Union with Christ vs. Union in Immorality (1 Cor. 6:15–17) Sexual immorality contradicts union with Christ. Contrast: intimacy through merging of bodies vs. merging of spirits with the Lord. The Call to Flee (1 Cor. 6:18) Immorality uniquely sins against one's own body. Subtle items of immorality: pornography, media, cultural messages. Principle: All things lawful, but not all profitable; avoid what enslaves. The Body as Temple of the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19–20) Believers are bought with a price. The body is God's dwelling place, meant for His glory. The cure: “Think Jesus” — fellowship with the indwelling Spirit. Key Takeaways Christian freedom has boundaries: ask “Is it profitable?” and “Will it control me?” The body matters to God: it is eternal, destined for resurrection, and united with Christ. Sexual sin is unique: it affects the whole person — body, soul, and spirit. True intimacy is spiritual: union with Christ satisfies more deeply than physical indulgence. The Holy Spirit indwells believers: we are temples, called to glorify God with our bodies. The path to purity is not legalism but fellowship with Christ — learning to “think Jesus.” Scripture References Acts 17:16–18 — Paul confronts the philosophies of Athens. 1 Corinthians 6:12–20 — Paul's correction of Corinthian slogans. Philippians 4:8 — Think on what is pure and honorable. Psalm 101:2–3 — “I will set no worthless thing before my eyes.” Colossians 1:27 — “Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Recorded 9/20/81

Guided Question When conflicts arise with other believers, do I rely on worldly methods of self-preservation, or do I trust God's Spirit and His people to help me walk in love, humility, and faith? Summary In this sermon on 1 Corinthians 6, Dr. Robert Lewis addresses the problem of lawsuits among Christians in Corinth. The issue was not simply about legal disputes but about a deeper spiritual problem: the Corinthians had forgotten their theology and were living with a worldly spirit of survival rather than the Spirit-filled life. Paul reminds the church that theology is not abstract or academic; it shapes everyday life and decisions. Believers are called to live out their future destiny now—managing disputes with wisdom, humility, and a focus on God's Kingdom rather than possessions or personal rights. Instead of taking one another to court, Paul calls for Christian arbitration or, if necessary, Christian resignation, following the example of Christ who surrendered His rights for the sake of love. Ultimately, Paul urges the Corinthians to remember who they are: washed, sanctified, and justified in Christ. Forgetting this truth leads them backward into a lifestyle of hopelessness, while remembering it moves them forward toward their destiny as Spirit-filled heirs of the Kingdom. Outline I. The Problem Identified (vv. 1–6) Christians were suing Christians in secular courts. Root issue: living as if theology has no place in daily life. Lawsuits reflected greed, selfishness, and immaturity in the faith. II. The Theological Reminder (vv. 2–4, 9–11) “Do you not know?” repeated six times—calling them back to forgotten theology. Believers will one day judge the world and even angels. Christians must live now in light of their eternal destiny. To sue one another is to live like those outside the Kingdom. Remember your identity: washed, sanctified, and justified. III. The Practical Solutions (vv. 5–8) Christian Arbitration — seek resolution through wise believers and church leadership. Christian Resignation — if necessary, yield rather than destroy relationships or Christ's reputation. IV. The Call to Move Forward (vv. 9–11) Do not retreat into sin and hopelessness. Live as Spirit-filled people who display God's love and forgiveness. Theology must inform daily relationships and decisions. Key Takeaways Theology is for life, not just the classroom. Biblical truth is meant to shape our daily decisions and relationships. Conflict among believers must be handled spiritually, not through worldly systems. The church is equipped with God's Word and Spirit to resolve disputes. Possessions are never more important than people. Giving in for the sake of love protects unity and honors Christ. Remember your identity. We are washed, sanctified, and justified—called to live as heirs of God's Kingdom. Moving forward requires Spirit-filled living. Retreating into selfishness and greed leads to defeat; surrender to the Spirit leads to peace and maturity. Scripture References 1 Corinthians 6:1–11 – Lawsuits among believers and reminder of our identity in Christ. Matthew 5:40 – Jesus' teaching on surrendering possessions rather than fighting. Revelation 20:4–6 – Believers' future destiny to rule with Christ. Proverbs 18:19 – The difficulty of restoring an offended brother. Acts 18:8 – Corinthians' baptism as a sign of leaving the old life behind. Recorded 9/6/81

Today on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly “Ask the Experts” theme with Dr. Robert Lewis, who answered questions about understanding biblical manhood. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly “Ask the Experts” theme with Dr. Robert Lewis, who answered questions about understanding biblical manhood. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly “Ask the Experts” theme with Dr. Robert Lewis, who answered questions about understanding biblical manhood. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly “Ask the Experts” theme with Dr. Robert Lewis, who answered questions about understanding biblical manhood. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly “Ask the Experts” theme with Dr. Robert Lewis, who answered questions about understanding biblical manhood. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly “Ask the Experts” theme with Dr. Robert Lewis, who answered questions about understanding biblical manhood. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Disciples Making Disciples” with a discussion with Dr. David Nelms to speak about the importance and impact of making disciple-makers. David serves as Founder of The Timothy Initiative (TTI). He is a former senior pastor who successfully grew three churches in Maryland, Iowa, and Florida. Then we had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the power of one-on-ones in discipleship. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. He is also the founding partner of Better Man. Then we had Dr. Mark Yarbrough join us to discuss the six essentials for reviving your faith. Dr. Yarbrough is a popular Bible Conference speaker, professor, and the President of Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas. He is also the author of several books, including “The Rekindled Heart: 6 Essentials for Reviving Your Faith.” You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Dr. David Nelms Interview [07:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [23:57] Dr. Mark Yarbrough Interview [41:29 ] Ally Thinks It's Funny [55:48] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Disciples Making Disciples” with a discussion with Dr. David Nelms to speak about the importance and impact of making disciple-makers. David serves as Founder of The Timothy Initiative (TTI). He is a former senior pastor who successfully grew three churches in Maryland, Iowa, and Florida. Then we had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the power of one-on-ones in discipleship. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. He is also the founding partner of Better Man. Then we had Dr. Mark Yarbrough join us to discuss the six essentials for reviving your faith. Dr. Yarbrough is a popular Bible Conference speaker, professor, and the President of Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas. He is also the author of several books, including “The Rekindled Heart: 6 Essentials for Reviving Your Faith.” You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Dr. David Nelms Interview [07:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [23:57] Dr. Mark Yarbrough Interview [41:29 ] Ally Thinks It's Funny [55:48] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Disciples Making Disciples” with a discussion with Dr. David Nelms to speak about the importance and impact of making disciple-makers. David serves as Founder of The Timothy Initiative (TTI). He is a former senior pastor who successfully grew three churches in Maryland, Iowa, and Florida. Then we had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the power of one-on-ones in discipleship. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. He is also the founding partner of Better Man. Then we had Dr. Mark Yarbrough join us to discuss the six essentials for reviving your faith. Dr. Yarbrough is a popular Bible Conference speaker, professor, and the President of Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas. He is also the author of several books, including “The Rekindled Heart: 6 Essentials for Reviving Your Faith.” You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Dr. David Nelms Interview [07:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [23:57] Dr. Mark Yarbrough Interview [41:29 ] Ally Thinks It's Funny [55:48] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Disciples Making Disciples” with a discussion with Dr. David Nelms to speak about the importance and impact of making disciple-makers. David serves as Founder of The Timothy Initiative (TTI). He is a former senior pastor who successfully grew three churches in Maryland, Iowa, and Florida. Then we had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the power of one-on-ones in discipleship. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. He is also the founding partner of Better Man. Then we had Dr. Mark Yarbrough join us to discuss the six essentials for reviving your faith. Dr. Yarbrough is a popular Bible Conference speaker, professor, and the President of Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas. He is also the author of several books, including “The Rekindled Heart: 6 Essentials for Reviving Your Faith.” You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Dr. David Nelms Interview [07:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [23:57] Dr. Mark Yarbrough Interview [41:29 ] Ally Thinks It's Funny [55:48] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Disciples Making Disciples” with a discussion with Dr. David Nelms to speak about the importance and impact of making disciple-makers. David serves as Founder of The Timothy Initiative (TTI). He is a former senior pastor who successfully grew three churches in Maryland, Iowa, and Florida. Then we had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the power of one-on-ones in discipleship. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. He is also the founding partner of Better Man. Then we had Dr. Mark Yarbrough join us to discuss the six essentials for reviving your faith. Dr. Yarbrough is a popular Bible Conference speaker, professor, and the President of Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas. He is also the author of several books, including “The Rekindled Heart: 6 Essentials for Reviving Your Faith.” You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Dr. David Nelms Interview [07:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [23:57] Dr. Mark Yarbrough Interview [41:29 ] Ally Thinks It's Funny [55:48] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Disciples Making Disciples” with a discussion with Dr. David Nelms to speak about the importance and impact of making disciple-makers. David serves as Founder of The Timothy Initiative (TTI). He is a former senior pastor who successfully grew three churches in Maryland, Iowa, and Florida. Then we had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the power of one-on-ones in discipleship. Dr. Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over 40 years. He is the founder of the Men’s Fraternity ministry and developed a 3-year video curriculum. He is also the founding partner of Better Man. Then we had Dr. Mark Yarbrough join us to discuss the six essentials for reviving your faith. Dr. Yarbrough is a popular Bible Conference speaker, professor, and the President of Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas, Texas. He is also the author of several books, including “The Rekindled Heart: 6 Essentials for Reviving Your Faith.” You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Dr. David Nelms Interview [07:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [23:57] Dr. Mark Yarbrough Interview [41:29 ] Ally Thinks It's Funny [55:48] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Marriage and Family” with conversations with Cody Kimmel about grace-based parenting in today’s culture. He also shares the four freedoms in Grace-Based Parenting. Cody is the Executive Director of Grace Based Families, a ministry committed to encouraging, educating, and equipping families for every age and stage of life. He also serves as a pastor, professor, and entrepreneur, and hosts multiple podcasts, including Blueprints for Parents and Lightcatchers, a storytime for kids. We had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the importance of men’s discipleship and chivalry in young men today. Then we had Chris Baker join us to discuss his tattoo-removing ministry and the work they’ve been doing for sex-trafficking victims that were rescued around the time of the Super Bowl. Chris is the founder of INK 180 a ministry that serves those who have been branded through sex-trafficking and gang-life. Through his work at the ministry, he won the 2022 FBI Director's Award for Community Service and has an award-winning documentary that has been featured on TLN. You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Chris Baker Interview [24:14] Cody Kimmel Interview [38:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [53:44] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Marriage and Family” with conversations with Cody Kimmel about grace-based parenting in today’s culture. He also shares the four freedoms in Grace-Based Parenting. Cody is the Executive Director of Grace Based Families, a ministry committed to encouraging, educating, and equipping families for every age and stage of life. He also serves as a pastor, professor, and entrepreneur, and hosts multiple podcasts, including Blueprints for Parents and Lightcatchers, a storytime for kids. We had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the importance of men’s discipleship and chivalry in young men today. Then we had Chris Baker join us to discuss his tattoo-removing ministry and the work they’ve been doing for sex-trafficking victims that were rescued around the time of the Super Bowl. Chris is the founder of INK 180 a ministry that serves those who have been branded through sex-trafficking and gang-life. Through his work at the ministry, he won the 2022 FBI Director's Award for Community Service and has an award-winning documentary that has been featured on TLN. You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Chris Baker Interview [24:14] Cody Kimmel Interview [38:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [53:44] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Marriage and Family” with conversations with Cody Kimmel about grace-based parenting in today’s culture. He also shares the four freedoms in Grace-Based Parenting. Cody is the Executive Director of Grace Based Families, a ministry committed to encouraging, educating, and equipping families for every age and stage of life. He also serves as a pastor, professor, and entrepreneur, and hosts multiple podcasts, including Blueprints for Parents and Lightcatchers, a storytime for kids. We had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the importance of men’s discipleship and chivalry in young men today. Then we had Chris Baker join us to discuss his tattoo-removing ministry and the work they’ve been doing for sex-trafficking victims that were rescued around the time of the Super Bowl. Chris is the founder of INK 180 a ministry that serves those who have been branded through sex-trafficking and gang-life. Through his work at the ministry, he won the 2022 FBI Director's Award for Community Service and has an award-winning documentary that has been featured on TLN. You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Chris Baker Interview [24:14] Cody Kimmel Interview [38:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [53:44] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Marriage and Family” with conversations with Cody Kimmel about grace-based parenting in today’s culture. He also shares the four freedoms in Grace-Based Parenting. Cody is the Executive Director of Grace Based Families, a ministry committed to encouraging, educating, and equipping families for every age and stage of life. He also serves as a pastor, professor, and entrepreneur, and hosts multiple podcasts, including Blueprints for Parents and Lightcatchers, a storytime for kids. We had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the importance of men’s discipleship and chivalry in young men today. Then we had Chris Baker join us to discuss his tattoo-removing ministry and the work they’ve been doing for sex-trafficking victims that were rescued around the time of the Super Bowl. Chris is the founder of INK 180 a ministry that serves those who have been branded through sex-trafficking and gang-life. Through his work at the ministry, he won the 2022 FBI Director's Award for Community Service and has an award-winning documentary that has been featured on TLN. You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Chris Baker Interview [24:14] Cody Kimmel Interview [38:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [53:44] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Marriage and Family” with conversations with Cody Kimmel about grace-based parenting in today’s culture. He also shares the four freedoms in Grace-Based Parenting. Cody is the Executive Director of Grace Based Families, a ministry committed to encouraging, educating, and equipping families for every age and stage of life. He also serves as a pastor, professor, and entrepreneur, and hosts multiple podcasts, including Blueprints for Parents and Lightcatchers, a storytime for kids. We had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the importance of men’s discipleship and chivalry in young men today. Then we had Chris Baker join us to discuss his tattoo-removing ministry and the work they’ve been doing for sex-trafficking victims that were rescued around the time of the Super Bowl. Chris is the founder of INK 180 a ministry that serves those who have been branded through sex-trafficking and gang-life. Through his work at the ministry, he won the 2022 FBI Director's Award for Community Service and has an award-winning documentary that has been featured on TLN. You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Chris Baker Interview [24:14] Cody Kimmel Interview [38:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [53:44] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today, on Karl and Crew, we kicked off our weekly theme of “Marriage and Family” with conversations with Cody Kimmel about grace-based parenting in today’s culture. He also shares the four freedoms in Grace-Based Parenting. Cody is the Executive Director of Grace Based Families, a ministry committed to encouraging, educating, and equipping families for every age and stage of life. He also serves as a pastor, professor, and entrepreneur, and hosts multiple podcasts, including Blueprints for Parents and Lightcatchers, a storytime for kids. We had Dr. Robert Lewis join us to discuss the importance of men’s discipleship and chivalry in young men today. Then we had Chris Baker join us to discuss his tattoo-removing ministry and the work they’ve been doing for sex-trafficking victims that were rescued around the time of the Super Bowl. Chris is the founder of INK 180 a ministry that serves those who have been branded through sex-trafficking and gang-life. Through his work at the ministry, he won the 2022 FBI Director's Award for Community Service and has an award-winning documentary that has been featured on TLN. You can hear the highlights of today's program on the Karl and Crew Showcast. If you're looking to hear a particular segment from the show, look at the following time stamps: Chris Baker Interview [24:14] Cody Kimmel Interview [38:35] Dr. Robert Lewis Interview [53:44] Karl and Crew airs live weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. Central Time. Click this link for ways to listen in your area! https://www.moodyradio.org/ways-to-listen/Donate to Moody Radio: http://moodyradio.org/donateto/morningshowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Guided Question  In what ways do I view the message of the cross as "foolish"—and how might God be inviting me to experience its transforming power instead? Summary Dr. Robert Lewis explores the paradox of the Christian faith: the message of the cross—foolishness to the world but power to those being saved. Using Paul's words in 1 Corinthians and a story from Isaiah, he shows how human wisdom repeatedly fails to answer life's deepest questions. Only through Christ's death and resurrection do we find forgiveness, purpose, and power to live differently. The message is not just theoretical—it changes lives. Outline Introduction  Prayer and welcome to visitors Reflections on the presence of God Two Responses to the Cross  Story: restaurant encounter shows contrasting reactions to the gospel 1 Corinthians 1:18—"The word of the cross is foolishness to the perishing" Greek word mōria (foolishness, absurdity) God's Plan for Man  Humanity was created for relationship with God Sin as rebellion and separation Only Christ's sacrifice restores us to God This gift must be personally received Israel's Mistake: Trusting Egypt, Not God  Isaiah 29–30: Historical context—Assyria threatens Jerusalem Israel turns to Egypt instead of repenting God rebukes their reliance on human power Miraculous deliverance follows Hezekiah's surrender to God Application: When You're Out of Options  We, like Israel, often exhaust all options before turning to God C.S. Lewis: God is not proud—He stoops to conquer The Failure of Human Wisdom  Paul asks, “Where is the wise man?” Human wisdom has not improved the human condition Churchill quote: knowledge grows, but virtue does not Real Power: The Gospel Transforms Lives  Augustine: from sinful living to radical transformation Gospel isn't just a theory; it brings power God's kingdom is about transformation, not just words Key Takeaways The Cross Offends Human Pride The message of a crucified Savior seems absurd to the self-sufficient and proud. God's Plan Inverts Human Expectations Salvation comes not through strength, but through what appears weak and foolish. There Is Only One Way Back to God The cross is God's exclusive and sufficient plan for reconciliation. Transformation Is the Evidence Faith in Christ results in real life change, not just new beliefs. God Waits for Our Desperation God often allows us to run out of options so we can finally turn to Him. Skepticism Is Real—But So Is the Evidence From personal stories to archaeology, the gospel is rooted in both power and truth. Scriptural References 1 Corinthians 1:18–25 – The contrast between the foolishness of the cross and God's power Isaiah 29:14 – “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise...” Isaiah 30:1–3 – Rebuke of Israel's alliance with Egypt Isaiah 53:6 – “All we like sheep have gone astray...” Romans 6:23 – “The wages of sin is death...” Acts 4:12 – “There is salvation in no one else...” 1 Corinthians 4:20 – “The kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.” Recorded 4/19/81

Send us a textWhat does it mean to raise a boy into a godly man in a culture that rarely defines manhood with clarity? In this episode, Dr. Pete Alwinson and Bishop Jayson Quiñones begin a two part conversation around Robert Lewis' book Raising a Modern Day Knight and why intentional fatherhood matters more than ever. Together, they unpack the father wound, the danger of the invisible dad, and why sons drift when no one is guiding them with purpose and love. You will hear honest stories, practical insight, and a compelling vision for shaping the next generation with direction, character, and mission. This is part one of a two part series focused on building great men as God defines greatness.

Guiding Question What does it look like for Christianity to transform our lives in real ways? Summary Dr. Robert Lewis challenges Christians to move beyond mere theology and live lives marked by spiritual transformation. Drawing on Ephesians 4:25–32, he identifies five clear indicators that the life of God is present in us: Promptly resolving anger Rejecting sin and resisting Satan's foothold Working to give rather than simply get Speaking words that build up others Extending forgiveness as we have been forgiven Through vivid anecdotes—such as the pastor's personal struggle with unresolved anger and domestic statistics—and practical reflections, Dr. Lewis urges us to ask: is our Christianity evident in our daily actions? Outline Ephesians 4:26 – “Do not let the sun go down on your anger.” Acknowledge righteous anger but resolve it daily to prevent bitterness. Ephesians 4:27 – “Do not give the devil an opportunity.” Reinforces the danger of unresolved conflict as a foothold for evil. Ephesians 4:28 – “Let him who stole steal no longer… so he may have something to share.” Introduces a proactive ethic of work used to bless others. Ephesians 4:29 – “Let no unwholesome talk proceed from your mouth… good for edification.” Contrasts decayed speech with timely words that uplift and heal. Ephesians 4:31–32 – “Forgiving each other… just as in Christ God forgave you.” Calls us to live forgiven lives by forgiving others, reflecting the cross. Key Takeaways Unresolved anger poisons relationships and opens the door to deeper sin and spiritual attack. Generosity, not self-centered labor, is the hallmark of a Christian work ethic. Words have power—they either groom community or corrode it. Forgiveness is non-negotiable for Christians; if we've been forgiven so much, we must forgive in return. Transformation matters—a faith that doesn't change us remains merely theoretical. Scriptural References Ephesians 4:25–32 1 Timothy 6:17–19 Proverbs 15:23 James 2:17 Recorded on 2/15/81

Guiding Question: What will you choose in the defining moments of your life—mediocrity or a life of courageous adventure?