Podcasts about screenhero

We released episode one of this podcast on June 11, 2012. Now, more than a decade later, we're celebrating the 500th episode of our show. In honor of this milestone, Victoria, Will, and Chad caught up with each of the past hosts of the show: Ben Orenstein, Chris Toomey, and Lindsey Christensen. We chatted about what they're up to now, what they liked and learned from hosting the show, their time at thoughtbot, and more! Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. WILL: And I'm your other host, Will Larry. CHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel. We released episode one of this podcast on June 11, 2012. Now more than a decade later, were celebrating this: the 500th episode of our show. In honor of this milestone, Victoria, Will, and I caught up with each of the past hosts of the show: Ben Orenstein, Chris Toomey, and Lindsey Christensen. We chatted about what they're up to now, what they liked and learned from hosting the show and their time at thoughtbot, and more. First up: Ben Orenstein. Ben was the very first host of the show back in 2012 when he was a developer at thoughtbot. He is now the co-founder and Head of Product at Tuple, a remote pair programming tool for designers and developers. Ben, it's great to talk to you again. It's been a while since you and I talked. How have you been? BEN: I've been decent, yeah. It's fun to be back to my roots a little bit. I told some folks that I work with that I was coming back to the pod for the 500th Episode, and they were stoked. So, it's kind of a treat to get to be on these airwaves again. CHAD: What have you been up to since you left this show and thoughtbot? BEN: Well, I started a company. So, I was at thoughtbot for a while; I think it was seven years. And I eventually sort of struck out to start my own thing–had a false start or two here and there. And then, I ended up starting a company called Tuple, and we still exist today, fortunately. Tuple is a tool for doing remote pair programming. We started off on macOS and then wrote a Linux client. And we're launching a Windows client now. But it's sort of, like, screen sharing with remote control for developers who are actually writing code and want to have great, low latency remote control and who care about screen share quality and that sort of thing. I started that about five years ago with two co-founders. Today, we are a team of 11, I think it is. And it's been going well. Our timing was really great, it turned out. We launched a little bit before COVID. So, remote work turned into a lot more of a thing, and we were already in the market. So, that helped us a ton. It was quite a wild ride there for a bit. But things have calmed down a little lately, but it's still fun. I'm, like, really enjoying being a co-founder of a software company. It was what I've always sort of wanted to do. And it turns out it actually is pretty fun and pretty great. Although there are, of course, the ups and downs of business ownership. It is never quite as calm or relaxing as being an employee somewhere else. CHAD: You started Tuple instigated by...full disclosure: thoughtbot's an early customer of Tuple. We're still a customer. We use it a lot. BEN: Woo-hoo. I appreciate that. Thank you. CHAD: If I remember right, you started and were sort of instigated to create Tuple because there was a prior product that then Slack bought, and then it started to degrade. And now, it no longer exists in the same way that it did before. BEN: Yeah. So, there was this tool called Screenhero, which I actually started using -- CHAD: [inaudible 02:14] BEN: Yeah, first at thoughtbot. Some other thoughtboter introduced me to it, and we would use it for pair programming. And I was like, oh, this is nice. And then yeah, Slack kind of acqui-hired it and more or less ended up shutting the product down. And so, there was this gap in the market. And I would ask my friends, I would ask thoughtboters and other developers, like, "What are you using now that Screenhero is gone?" And no one had a good answer. And so, after a while of this thing sort of staring me in the face, I was like, we have to try to solve this need. There's clearly a hole in the market. Yeah, so we were heavily inspired by them in the early days. Hopefully, we've charted our own path now. But they were definitely...the initial seed was, you know, let's do Screenhero but try to not get bought early or something. CHAD: [laughs] How did you or did you feel like you captured a lot of the Screenhero customers and reached them in those early days? BEN: I think so. The pitch for it was sort of shockingly easy because Screenhero had kind of blazed this trail. Like, I would often just be like, "Oh, we're making a thing. Do you remember Screenhero?" And they'd go, "Oh yeah, I loved Screenhero". I'd be like, "Yeah, we're going to try to do that." And they'd be like, "Nice. Sign me up." So, it for sure helped a ton. I have no idea what percentage of customers we converted. And they were a pretty large success, so probably a small fraction, but it definitely, like, made the initial days much easier. CHAD: Yeah. And then, like you said, COVID happened. BEN: COVID happened, yeah. I think we had been around for about a year when COVID hit. So, we were getting our feet underneath us. And we were already, like, the company was already growing at a pretty good rate, and we were feeling pretty good about it. I don't think we had quite hit ramen profitable, but we were probably pretty close or, like, flirting with it. Yeah, the business, like, I don't know, tripled or quadrupled in a matter of months. We had a few big customers that, like, just told everyone to start using Tuple. So, we had, like, thousands and thousands of new users kind of immediately. So, it was a crazy time. Everything melted, of course. We hadn't quite engineered for that much scale. We had a really rough day or so as we scrambled, but fortunately, we got things under control. And then had this, like, very nice tailwind. Because we started the company assuming that remote work would grow. We assumed that there would be more remote developers every year. And, you know, it's probably maybe 5% of dev jobs are remote or maybe even less, but we expect to see this number creeping up. We don't think that trend will reverse. And so, COVID just, like, it just yanked it, you know, a decade in the future. CHAD: You haven't tripled or quadrupled your team size, have you? BEN: No. Well, I mean, I guess, I mean, we started as 3, and now we're 11, so kind of. CHAD: [laughs] Yeah, that's true. BEN: Expenses have not grown as fast as revenue, fortunately. CHAD: That's good. That's basically what I was asking [laughs]. BEN: Yeah, yeah. We're still a pretty small team, actually. We have only, like, four or five full-time engineers on the team at the moment, which is kind of wild because we are now, you know, we have three platforms to support: Linux, Windows, and Mac. It's a pretty complicated app doing, like, real-time streaming of audio, webcams, desktops, caring about OS-level intricacies. So, I think we will be hiring more people soon, although we haven't said that for a long time. We sort of have always had a bit of a hire-slow mentality to try to get the right team members and, like, feel a real pain before we hire someone into it. But we have been getting a bit more aggressive with hiring lately. VICTORIA: Well, I really appreciate Tuple. I installed it when I first started working here at thoughtbot. And we have random pairings with everyone across the company. So, I'll randomly get to meet someone halfway across the world who's working on similar projects. And I think they really enjoy that I have a tool they like working to share what they're working on. So, I want to thank you for that. And I'm curious about when you really started to scale during COVID, what were some of the technology architecture trade-offs you came across, and where did you land with it? BEN: Well, we got fairly...I don't know if it was lucky, but we...for a long time, for years, even through COVID, maybe the first four years of the company, all Tuple calls were purely peer-to-peer. And there was no server that we owned intermediating things. This was, like, kind of one of the keys of, like, not having expenses. The scale of revenue was we could have lots more calls happen. And it wouldn't cost us bandwidth or server capacity. To this day, still, for any calls with three or fewer participants, they're purely peer-to-peer. And this is nice for latency purposes because it just...we can find the most direct path to the internet between two people. It's also nice from our cost perspective because we don't need to pay to send that data. And that was hugely useful as call volume went up immensely. Didn't have to worry too much about server load and didn't have to worry too much about bandwidth costs. CHAD: Today, is there a central service that makes the initial connection for people? BEN: Yes, yeah, yeah. So, there is a signaling server. So, when you launch the app, you sign in, and you see, like, oh, which of my co-workers are online? So, there is actually a Rails app that handles that, actually, increasingly less the Rails app. We have now...I think it's a Go service that actually manages all those. I'm further and further from the code every year. Some of the technical questions might be a little bit beyond me, or I might have slightly out-of-date info. But back to the architecture question for a second, we did a pretty big refactor when we decided to go from just being a Mac client to supporting other platforms, where we split out a cross-platform real-time communication engine written in C++ so that we could use that for all of the heavy lifting, all the managing of the connections, and the tricky bandwidth estimation, and all this stuff, and use that across different platforms. And so, today, you have the cross-platform engine, and then on top of that is a, like, a less specific layer for each of the operating systems that we support. CHAD: So, you mentioned you're less and less in the code these days. So, what do you spend your time doing then? BEN: It's a mix of things. These days, it's basically mostly -- CHAD: Just cocktails on the beach, right? BEN: Cocktails, yes [laughs], cocktails on the beach, appearing on podcasts trying to sound important and impressive, yeah. Mostly product work. So, right before this, I just got off a call with some folks from The Browser Company. They are some of our first alpha users for our new Windows clients. So, I hopped on the call with them and, like, watched three of them install the product and inevitably run into some bugs. And, you know, chatted through those with the engineer that was working on it, prioritized some stuff, made some decisions about what's coming up next, and what we're going to ignore. So, mostly product work these days. For the first five years of the company, I was CEO, so I was doing kind of everything: marketing, and also hiring, and also product. About two months ago, I stepped down as CEO, and one of my other co-founders, Spencer, stepped up. And so, now my focus has narrowed to be mostly just product stuff and much less on the marketing or hiring side. VICTORIA: Yeah, you mentioned that it was a little more comfortable to be an employee than to be a founder. I don't know if you could say more about that because, certainly, a lot of engineers are smart enough and capable enough to run their own company. But what really informed your choice there, and do you regret it? [laughs] BEN: I definitely don't regret it. thoughtbot was a close second in terms of wonderful professional experiences. But running my own thing has been the most interesting professional thing I've done by a big margin. It has also been more stressful. And, Chad, I don't know if you remember, I think, like, maybe eight years ago, you tweeted something like, if you want to sleep well at night, and, like, value that, like, peace of mind, like, don't start a company or something. I have experienced that. CHAD: [laughs] BEN: A lot more, yeah, like waking up in the middle of the night worrying about things. It feels a little bit like the highs are higher; the lows are lower. Being an employee somewhere, it's like, if this company fails, I know I can go get another job, right? Like, you're a developer. You're extremely employable. But as the owner of the company, if the company fails, like, a huge chunk of your net worth is gone. Like, this thing you poured your life into is gone. It's way more stressful and traumatic to have that happen, or have that threatened to be happening, or just imagine that happening. So, overall, I have found the trade-off to be totally worth it. It's awesome to make your own decisions and chart your own path. And when it works, it can work in a way that being a salaried employee can't. So, I'm happy with those trade-offs. But I think that is a good question for people to ask themselves as they consider doing something like this is, like: is that the kind of trade-off that you want to make? Because it has significant downsides for sure. WILL: I am a big fan of Tuple also. I love it. It [inaudible 10:08] easy, especially with remote work. You hit the jackpot with COVID and remote work, so kudos for that [laughs]. Was there anything...because I know from our previous companies, about over...hopefully a lot more of the good stuff than the bad stuff. But was there anything that you learned? Because you were at thoughtbot for seven years. Was there anything that you're like, oh my gosh, I learned that, and it's helped me till this day while I'm running my company? BEN: Yeah, quite a bit, actually. I think it'd be hard to tease apart exactly which lessons, but I do...so I ran Upcase for thoughtbot and also FormKeep. So, I got a chance to kind of run a small division of the company, while still being a normal employee and, like, having not much of that risk. And I think that was a really wonderful opportunity for me to, like, practice the skills that I was interested in. Just, like, how do you market a thing? How do you design a product and have it be good? How do you prioritize user feedback? There were a ton of lessons from those days that I feel like made me better at running our company when we actually took a shot at it. So, there were, like, the specific things that I learned by the work I was doing there. But then just, like, I mean, I think I am the programmer I am today because of, like, the weekly dev discussions that happened. Like, spending so much time with Joe Ferris and, like, trying to copy as much of his brain as possible, like, really, like, imprinted on me as, like, a programmer. And also, just, like, a lot of the sort of cultural things from my time at thoughtbot of, like, you should be sharing the things you're learning. Like, writing blog posts is a great use of time. Like, doing open-source work is a great use of time. And maybe you can't directly trace how doing, like, working in public or sharing information benefits the company. It's hard to, like, attribute it from a marketing sense. But if you sort of have faith that in the large, it's going to work out, it probably will. That feels like a thoughtbot lesson to me, and I think it has served us really well; where I recorded a weekly podcast for a long time called The Art of Product. I'm recording a new podcast called Hackers Incorporated with Adam Wathan of Tailwind fame. And I don't ever think, like, hmm, how many new leads do we think we get per episode, and how many hours has that taken? What's the ROI? I just have this sort of reflex that I developed from thoughtbot time of, like, you should be putting stuff out there, or you should be giving back. You should help other people. And that will probably help your business and make it work in the long term. CHAD: That's a good lesson [laughs]. One of the other things, you know, while you were a host of Giant Robots, you were the first host. I remember, you know, encouraging you to be the first host, and I think we talked about that in one of the episodes along the way. But we also transitioned the format a little bit, especially as you started to work on products here; you know, it was more about the building of those products and following along with those. And one of the things that sort of half-jokingly defined, I think, your impact on a lot of products was pricing, experimenting with pricing, learning about pricing, increasing prices more than people were maybe comfortable doing so. How has that worked out with Tuple, pricing in particular? BEN: It's really hard to say. It's hard to know what, like, the other path would have been through the world-. We sort of decided from, like, the early days that we wanted to have, like, a fairly premium price. Like, we wanted to be the product that was really good and was, like, a little bit annoyingly expensive, but you still paid for it because it felt worth it. And I think people could debate in both directions whether we nailed that or not. We have had a price increase that we ended up rolling back. We went, like, a little too far one time and said, "You know what? I think we're a little bit over," and we reverted that. But I would say even today, we are still a fairly pricey product. I mean, I'm pretty happy with how the company has done. I can't prove to you that, like, if the price were half what it is, we would have, you know, better success or not. CHAD: I think it'd be very hard to make the argument that if it was half that, you would have double the number of customers. BEN: Yeah, that's probably not true. CHAD: Not with the customers that you have, who are companies that will pay for products that they use as much as Tuple. BEN: Yeah, I'm happy serving the kind of companies, and they end up being mostly tech companies that really value developer happiness. When their developers come to them and they say, "We don't want to pair over Zoom. We like this thing. It's better. It feels nicer to use," they say, "Okay," and they buy the tool for them. There are places where that's not the case. And they say, "We already have a thing that does screen sharing. You're not allowed to buy this." We don't invest a lot of time trying to sell to those people or convince them that they're wrong. And I'm pretty happy serving sort of the first group. CHAD: So, you've mentioned that you've still been podcasting. To be honest, I didn't realize you were starting something new. Is it live now? BEN: It is live now, yeah. CHAD: Awesome. Where can people find that? BEN: hackersincorporated.com. It's about the transition from developer to founder, which is kind of what we've been touching on here. Yeah, hopefully, the audience is developers who want to start something or have started something who are maybe a little bit further behind progression-wise. And it's kind of, like, I have some lessons, and Adam has some lessons, and, you know, we don't think that we're experts. But sometimes it's useful to just hear, like, two people's story and sort of see, like, what seemingly has worked for them. So, we've been trying to share things there. And I think people will find it useful. VICTORIA: I was going to ask you for a lesson, maybe give us a little sample about how would you advise someone who's built a product and wants to market it, and it's targeted towards developers since you mentioned that previously as well. BEN: Yeah, in a way, the question already contains a problem. It's like, oh, I built the product; now how do I market it? It's a little bit indicative of a very common failure mode for developers, which is that. They sort of assume, okay, after you make the product, you then figure out how you're going to market it. And marketing is sort of a thing you layer on later on when you realize that just, like, throwing it on Twitter or Product Hunt didn't really work. When we started building Tuple, I was out there marketing it already. So, I had two co-founders, so this is a luxury I had. My two co-founders were writing code, and I was out doing stuff. I was recording podcasts. I was tweeting about things. I was making videos. I was giving conference talks. And I was getting people to hear about our product well before it was done. In fact, I was even selling it. I was taking pre-orders for annual subscriptions to the app while it was still vaporware. So, I would say, like, you basically can't start marketing too early. If you start marketing early and no one really cares, well, then you don't really have to build it probably. I would actually even go a little further and say, like, I started marketing Tuple before we had a product available. But in reality, I started marketing Tuple seven or so years before that when I started publishing things through thoughtbot. It's like when I was traveling around giving talks about Ruby, and when I was making screencasts about Vim, and when I was running Upcase, I was, over time, building an audience. And that audience was useful for thoughtbot, and it also was useful for me so that when I left, I had something like 10,000 Twitter followers or something, a few thousand people on our mailing list. But there were a lot of developers that already sort of knew me and trusted me to make fairly good things. And so, when I said, "Hey, I've made a new thing, and it's for you," I really benefited from those years of making useful content and trying to be useful on the internet. And in the early days, we had people sign up, and they would say, "I don't even really think I'm going to use this. But I've learned so much from you over the years that I want to support you, so I'm going to pay for a subscription." VICTORIA: I like your answer because I think the same thing when people ask me, like, because I am an organizer for Women Who Code, and I know all these great people from showing up for years in person months over months. And so, then people will ask, "Oh, how do I recruit more women in my company?" I'm like, "Well, you got to start showing up [laughs] now and do that for a couple of years, and then maybe people will trust you," right? So, I really like that answer. WILL: How has your relationship with Chad continued to grow since you left? Because seven years at the company is a lot. And it seems like you're still on really, really good terms, and you're still friends. And I know that doesn't happen at every company. BEN: I mean, it was tough deciding to leave. I think, like, both of us felt pretty sad about it. That was the longest I'd ever worked anywhere, and I really enjoyed the experience. So, I think it was tough on both sides, honestly. But we haven't kept in that much touch since then. I think we've emailed a handful of times here and there. We're both sociable people, and we sort of get each other. And there's a long history there. So, I think it's just easy for us to kind of drop back into a friendly vibe is sort of how I feel about it. CHAD: Yeah. And the way I explain it to people, you know, when you're leading a company, which Ben and I both are, you put a lot of energy into that and to the people who are on that team. If you're doing things right, there's not really hard feelings when someone leaves. But you need to put in a lot of effort to keep in touch with people outside of the company and a lot of energy. And, to be honest, I don't necessarily do as good a job with that as I would like because it's a little bit higher priority to maintain relationships with them, the people who are still at thoughtbot and who are joining. BEN: What you're saying is I'm dead to you [laughter]. That's CEO, for you're dead to me. CHAD: No. It's just...no hard feelings. BEN: Totally. CHAD: I think one of the things that has been great about the show over the years is that we haven't been afraid to change the format, which I think has been important to keeping it going. So, there is sort of; in fact, the website now is organized into seasons. And I went back and re-categorized all the episodes into seasons. And when the seasons were made up of, like, sort of the format of the show or particular hosts...when we started, it was just an interview show, and it was largely technical topics. And then we started The Bike Shed, and the technical topics sort of moved over there. But it also went with your interests more under the product and business side. Then you started working on products at thoughtbot, so it started to go even more in that. And I think Chris joined you on the show, and that was sort of all about those topics. BEN: Yeah, that makes sense. I think if you don't let the hosts kind of follow their interests, they're going to probably burn out on the thing. It's not fun to force yourself, I think, to record a podcast. CHAD: Yeah. And then when you left, you know, I took over hosting and hosted by myself for a while, went back to the interview format, but then was joined by Lindsey for a little while. We experimented with a few different things: one, interviews, but then we did a whole, just under a year, where we followed along with three companies. And each month, we would have an interview episode where we talked to them, all three companies, about the same topic. And then, we also did an episode with just Lindsey and I talking about that topic and about what we learned from the startup companies that we were following along with for the year. And now we're back to interview freeform, different guests, different topics. It seems like we're going to stick with that for a little while. But, obviously, as Will and Victoria have said, like, we'll probably change it again in some way, you know, a year, two years, three years from now. VICTORIA: Yeah, and I'm definitely bringing my interest around DevOps and platform engineering, so you'll see more guests who have that focus in their background. And with that, sometimes my interview style is more; how do I ask a question that I can't read from your developer docs and that I might not understand the answer to? [laughs] That's kind of where I like to go with it. So yeah, I'm really excited about...it's probably one of my favorite parts of my job here at thoughtbot because I get to meet so many interesting people. And, hopefully, that's interesting to everyone else [laughs] and our guests, yeah. BEN: Totally. Well, I dramatically underestimated how awesome it would be to meet all kinds of cool people in the industry when I started the podcast. I didn't truly connect in my head, like, wait a second, if I have a 45-minute conversation with, like, a lot of prominent, awesome people in our field, that's going to be really interesting and useful for me. So, I think, yeah, it's nice to be in the hosting seat. VICTORIA: And it's so surprising how I'll meet someone at a conference, and I'll invite them onto the podcast. And the way it winds up is that whatever we're talking about on the show is directly relevant to what I'm working on or a problem that I have. It's been incredible. And I really appreciate you for coming back for our 500th Episode here. CHAD: Ben, thanks very much again for joining us, and congratulations on all the success with Tuple. And I wish you the best. BEN: Thank you so much. Thanks for being a continuing customer. I really appreciate it. CHAD: Next, we caught up with Chris Toomey, who had a run as co-host of the show with Ben throughout 2016. CHRIS: Hi there. Thanks for having me. So, we're talking with all of the past hosts. I know you joined the show, and you were on it with Ben. And then you moved over to The Bike Shed, right? CHRIS: Yeah. So, I had co-hosted with Ben for about six months. And then I think I was transitioning off of Upcase, and so that ended sort of the Giant Robots “let's talk about business” podcast tour for me. And then, I went back to consulting for a while. And, at some point, after Derek Prior had left, I took over as the host of The Bike Shed. So, I think there was probably, like, a year and a half, two-year gap in between the various hostings. CHAD: Are you doing any podcasting now? CHRIS: I'm not, and I miss it. It was a lot of fun. It was, I think, an ideal medium for me. I'm not as good at writing. I tend to over-edit and overthink. But when you get me on a podcast, I just start to say what's in my head, and I tend to not hate it after the fact. So [chuckles], that combination I found to be somewhat perfect for me. But yeah, lacking that in my current day-to-day. CHAD: Well, what's been taking up your time since you left? CHRIS: I had decided it was time to sort of go exploring, try and maybe join a startup, that sort of thing. I was sort of called in that direction. So, just after I left thoughtbot, I did a little bit of freelancing, but that was mostly to sort of keep the lights on and start to connect with folks and see if there might be an opportunity out there. I was able to connect with a former thoughtbot client, Sam Zimmerman, who was looking to start something as well. And so, we put our act together and formed a company called Sagewell, which was trying to build a digital financial platform for seniors, which is a whole bunch of different complicated things to try and string together. So, that was a wonderful experience. I was CTO of that organization. And I think that ran for about two and a half years. Unfortunately, Sagewell couldn't quite find the right sort of sticking point and, unfortunately, shut down a little bit earlier in this year. But that was, I would say, the lion's share of what I have done since leaving thoughtbot, really wonderful experience, got to learn a ton about all of the different aspects of building a startup. And I think somewhat pointedly learned that, like, it's messy, but I think I do like this startup world. So, since leaving Sagewell, I've now joined a company called August Health, which has a couple of ex-thoughtboters there as well. And August is post their Series A. They're a little bit further along in their journey. So, it was sort of a nice continuation of the startup experience, getting to see a company a little bit further on but still with lots of the good type of problems, lots of code to write, lots of product to build. So, excited to be joining them. And yeah, that's mostly what's taking up my time these days. CHAD: So, I know at Sagewell, you made a lot of technical architecture, team decisions. It was Rails in the backend, Svelte in the frontend, if I'm not mistaken. CHRIS: Yep, that's correct. CHAD: You know, hindsight is always 2020. Is there anything you learned along the way, or given how things ended up, that you would do differently? CHRIS: Sure. I was really happy with the tech stack that we were able to put together. Svelte was probably the most out there of the choices, I would say, but even that, it was sort of relegated to the frontend. And so, it was a little bit novel for folks coming into the codebase. Most folks had worked in React before but didn't know Svelte. They were able to pick it up pretty quickly. But Inertia.js was actually the core sort of architecture of the app, sort of connected the frontend and the backend, and really allowed us to move incredibly quickly. And I was very, very happy with that decision. We even ended up building our mobile applications, both for iOS and Android. So, we had native apps in both of the stores, but the apps were basically wrappers around the Rails application with a technology similar to Turbolinks native–if folks are familiar with that so, sort of a WebView layer but with some native interactions where you want. And so, like, we introduced a native login screen on both platforms so that we could do biometric login and that sort of thing. But at the end of the day, most of the screens in the app didn't need to be differentiated between a truly native mobile app and what like, mobile WebView would look like. So, we leaned into that. And it was incredible just how much we were able to do with that stack and how quickly we were able to move, and also how confidently we were able to move, which was really a nice thing. Having the deep integration between the backend and the frontend really allowed a very small team to get a lot done in a short time. CHAD: Does that code live on in any capacity? CHRIS: No. CHAD: Oh. How does that make you feel? [chuckles] CHRIS: It makes me feel very sad, I will say. That said, I mean, at the end of the day, code is in service of a business. And so, like, the code...there are, I think, probably a couple of things that we might be able to extract and share. There were some interesting...we did some weird stuff with the serializers and some, like, TypeScript type generation on the frontend that was somewhat novel. But at the end of the day, you know, code is in service of a business, and, unfortunately, the business is not continuing on. So, the code in the abstract is...it's more, you know, the journey that we had along the way and the friends we made and whatnot. But I think, for me, sort of the learnings of I really appreciate this architecture and will absolutely bring it to any new projects that I'm building from, you know, greenfield moving forward. VICTORIA: I'm curious what it was like to go from being a consultant to being a big player in a startup and being responsible for the business and the technology. How did that feel for you? CHRIS: I would say somewhat natural. I think the consulting experience really lent well to trying to think about not just the technical ramifications but, you know, what's the business impact? How do we structure a backlog and communicate about what features we want to build in what order? How do we, you know, scope a minimal MVP? All those sorts of things were, I think, really useful in allowing me to sort of help shape the direction of the company and be as productive of an engineering team as we could be. CHAD: A lot of the projects you worked on at thoughtbot were if not for startups, helping to launch new products. And then, a lot of the work you did at thoughtbot, too, was on Upcase, which was very much building a business. CHRIS: Yes. I definitely find myself drawn in that direction, and part of like, as I mentioned, I seem to be inclined towards this startup world. And I think it's that, like, the intersection between tech and business is sort of my sweet spot. I work with a lot of developers who are really interested in getting sort of deeper into the technical layers, or Docker and Kubernetes and orchestration. And I always find myself a little bit resistant to those. I'm like, I mean, whatever. Let's just...let's get something out there so that we can get users on it. And I am so drawn to that side, you know, you need both types of developers critically. I definitely find myself drawn to that business side a little bit more than many of the folks that I work with, and helping to bridge that gap and communicate about requirements and all those sort of things. So, definitely, the experience as a consultant really informed that and helped me have sort of a vocabulary and a comfort in those sort of conversations. WILL: How did Upcase come about? Because I know I've talked to numerous people who have gone through Upcase. I actually went through it, and I learned a ton. So, how did that come about? CHRIS: I think that was a dream in Ben Orenstein's eye. It started as thoughtbot Learn many, many years ago. There was a handful of workshops that had been recorded. And so, there were the video recordings of those workshops that thoughtbot used to provide in person. Ben collected those together and made them sort of an offering on the internet. I think Chad, you, and I were on some podcast episode where you sort of talked about the pricing models over time and how that went from, like, a high dollar one-time download to, like, $99 a month to $29 a month, and now Upcase is free. And so, it sort of went on this long journey. But it was an interesting exploration of building a content business of sort of really leaning into the thoughtbot ideal of sharing as much information as possible, and took a couple of different shapes over time. There was the weekly iterations of the video series that would come out each week, as well as the, like, longer format trails, and eventually some exercises and whatnot, but very much an organic sort of evolving thing that started as just a handful of videos and then became much more of a complete platform. I think I hit the high points there. But, Chad, does that all sound accurate to you? CHAD: Yeah, I led the transition from our workshops to Learn, which brought everything together. And then, I stepped away as product manager, and Ben took it the next step to Upcase and really productized it into a SaaS sort of monthly recurring billing model and took it over from there. But it still exists, and a lot of the stuff there is still really good [laughs]. CHRIS: Yeah, I remain deeply proud of lots of the videos on that platform. And I'm very glad that they are still out there, and I can point folks at them. VICTORIA: I love that idea that you said about trying to get as much content out there as possible or, like, really overcommunicate. I'm curious if that's also stayed with you as you've moved on to startups, about just trying to get that influence over, like, what you're doing and how you're promoting your work continues. CHRIS: I will say one of the experiences that really sticks with me is I had followed thoughtbot for a while before I actually joined. So, I was reading the blog, and I was listening to the podcasts and was really informing a lot of how I thought about building software. And I was so excited when I joined thoughtbot to, like, finally see behind the curtain and see, like, okay, so, what are the insider secrets? And I was equal parts let down...actually, not equal parts. I was a little bit let down but then also sort of invigorated to see, like, no, no, it's all out there. It's like, the blog and the open-source repos and those sort of...that really is the documentation of how thoughtbot thinks about and builds software. So, that was really foundational for me. But at the same time, I also saw sort of the complexity of it and how much effort goes into it, you know, investment time Fridays, and those sort of things. Like, a thoughtbot blog post is not a trivial thing to put up into the world. So many different people were collaborating and working on it. And so, I've simultaneously loved the sharing, and where sharing makes sense, I've tried to do that. But I also recognize the deep cost. And I think for thoughtbot, it's always made sense because it's been such a great mechanism for getting the thoughtbot name out there and for getting clients and for hiring developers. At startups, it becomes a really interesting trade-off of, should we be allocating time to building up sort of a brand in the name and getting ourselves, you know, getting information out there? Versus, should we be just focusing on the work at hand? And most organizations that I've worked with have bias towards certainly less sharing than thoughtbot, but just not much at all. Often, I'll see folks like, "Hey, maybe we should start a blog." And I'm like, "Okay, let's just talk about how much effort that [laughs] actually looks like." And I wonder if I'm actually overcorrected on that, having seen, you know, the high bar that thoughtbot set. CHAD: I think it's a struggle. This is one of my [laughs] hot topics or spiels that I can go on. You know, in most other companies, that kind of thing only helps...it only helps in hiring or the people being fulfilled in the work. But at most companies, your product is not about that; that's not what your business is. So, having a more fulfilled engineering team who is easier to hire—don't get me wrong, there are advantages to that—but it doesn't also help with your sales. CHRIS: Yes. CHAD: And at thoughtbot, our business is totally aligned with the people and what we do as designers and developers. And so, when we improve one, we improve the other, and that's why we can make it work. That is marketing for the product that we actually sell, and that's not the case at a SaaS software company. CHRIS: Yes, yeah, definitely. That resonates strongly. I will say, though, on the hiring side, hiring at thoughtbot was always...there was...I won't say a cheat code, but just if someone were to come into the hiring process and they're like, "Oh yeah, I've read the blog. I listen to the podcast," this and that, immediately, you were able to skip so much further into the conversation and be like, "Okay, what do you agree with? What do you disagree with? Like, let's talk." But there's so much. Because thoughtbot put so much out there, it was easy to say, like, "Hey, this is who we are. Do you like that? Is that your vibe?" Whereas most engineering organizations don't have that. And so, you have to try and, like, build that in the context of, you know, a couple of hour conversations in an interview, and it's just so much harder to do. So, again, I've leaned in the direction of not going anywhere near thoughtbot's level of sharing. But the downside when you are hiring, you're like, oh, this is going to be trickier. CHAD: Yeah. One of the moments that stands out in my mind, and maybe I've told this story before on the podcast, but I'll tell it again. When we opened the New York studio, it was really fast growing and was doing a lot of hiring. And one of the people who had just joined the company a couple of weeks before was doing an interview and rejected the person was able to write an articulate reason why. But it all boiled down to this person is, you know, not a fit for thoughtbot. Based on what they were able to describe, I felt very confident with the ability or with the fact that they were able to make that call, even though they had been here only a couple of weeks, because they joined knowing who we were, and what we stand for, and what our culture and our values are, and the way that we do things, and all that kind of thing. And so, yeah, that's definitely a huge benefit to us. VICTORIA: I've certainly enjoyed that as well, as someone who hires developers here and also in meeting new companies and organizations when they already know thoughtbot. That's really nice to have that reputation there, coming from my background—some really more scrappier startup kind of consulting agencies. But, you know, I wanted to talk a little bit more about your podcasting experience while you're here. So, I know you were on both The Bike Shed and Giant Robots. Which is the better podcast? [laughter] So, what's your...do you have, like, a favorite episode or favorite moment, or maybe, like, a little anecdote you can share from hosting? CHRIS: Well, I guess there's, like, three different eras for me in the podcasting. So, there's Giant Robots with Ben talking more about business stuff, and I think that was really useful. I think it was more of a forcing function on me because I sort of...Both Ben and I were coming on; we were giving honest, transparent summaries of our, like, MRR and stats and how things were growing, and acted as sort of an accountability backstop, which was super useful but also just kind of nerve-wracking. Then, when I joined the Bike Shed, the interviewing sequence that I did each week was just a new person that I was chatting with. And I sort of had to ramp them up on, hey, here's a quick summary on how to think about podcasting. Don't worry, it'll be great. Everybody have fun. But I was finding each of the guests. I was sort of finding a topic to talk about with them. So, that ended up being a lot more work. And then, the last three years chatting with Steph that was by far my favorite. There was just such a natural back-and-forth. It really was just capturing the conversations of two developers at thoughtbot and the questions we would ask each other as we hit something complicated in a piece of code or, "Oh, I saw this, you know, article about a new open-source repository. What do you think about that?" It was so much easier, so much more natural, and, frankly, a lot of fun to do that. And, two, I actually do have an answer to the favorite podcast episode, which is the first episode that Steph was ever on. It was before she actually joined as a co-host. But it was called “What I Believe About Software.” And it was just this really great, deep conversation about how we think about software. And a lot of it is very much, like, thoughtbot ideals, I would say. But yeah, Steph came in and just brought the heat in that first episode, and I remember just how enjoyable that experience was. And I was like, all right, let's see if I can get her to hang out a little bit more, and, thankfully, she was happy to join. WILL: What was your favorite position, I guess you can call it? Because you say you like the mixture of business and, you know, development. So, you've been in leadership as development director, CTO. You've been a web developer. You've been over content, like, with Upcase. What was your favorite position [inaudible 16:43] you were doing, and why was it your favorite? CHRIS: The development director role feels like sort of a cheating answer, but I think that would be my answer because it contained a handful of things within it. Like, as development director, I was still working on client projects three days a week. And then, one day a week was sort of allocated to the manager-type tasks, or having one-on-ones with my team sort of helping to think about strategy and whatnot. And then, ideally, still getting some amount of investment time, although the relative amounts of those always flexed a little bit. Because that one sort of encompassed different facets, I think that's going to be my answer. And I think, like, some of what drew me to consulting in the first place and kept me in that line of work for seven years was the variety, you know, different clients, as well as, even within thoughtbot, different modes of working in podcasts or video. Or there was a bootcamp that I taught, a session of Metis, which that was a whole other experience. And so, getting that variety was really interesting. And I think as sort of a tricky answer to your question, the development director role as a singular thing contained a multitude, and so I think that was the one that would stand out to me. It's also the most, you know, the one that I ended on, so [laughs] it might just be recency bias, but yeah. VICTORIA: Oh, I love that. Is there anything else that you would like to promote on the podcast today? CHRIS: No, although as you ask the question, I feel like I should, I don't know, make some things to promote, get back into some, I don't know, content generation or something like that. But for now, no. I'm, you know, diving into the startup life, and it's a wonderful and engrossing way to do work, but it does definitely take up a lot of my headspace. So, it's an interesting trade-off. But right now, I don't know; if folks are online and they want to say hi, most of my contact information is readily available. So, I would love to say hi to folks, anyone that listened in the past or, you know, has any thoughts in the now. Would love to connect with folks. But otherwise, yeah, thank you so much for having me on. CHAD: In 2017, I took over from Ben as solo host of the show but was joined by Lindsey Christainson as cohost in 2019. After some time away from thoughtbot, Lindsey is back with us and we sat down to catch up with her. VICTORIA: Why don't you tell me about your current role with thoughtbot? LINDSEY: I am currently supporting marketing and business development at thoughtbot, as well as working as a marketing consultant for thoughtbot clients. VICTORIA: Great. And I understand that you had worked with thoughtbot many years ago, and that's when you also came on as a co-host of Giant Robots. Is that right? LINDSEY: Yeah, a couple of years ago. I left thoughtbot in spring of 2021. And I forget how long my stint was as a co-host of Giant Robots, but over a year, maybe a year and a half, two years? CHAD: Yeah, I think that's right. I think you started in 2019. LINDSEY: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds right. And Chad and I were co-hosts, I think, similar to the setup today in which sometimes we hosted together, and sometimes we were conducting interviews separately. CHAD: And then we sort of introduced a second season, where we followed along with a batch of companies over the course of the entire season. And that was fun, and we learned a lot. And it was nice to have consistent guests. LINDSEY: Yeah, that was a lot of fun. I really liked that format. I don't know; they almost were, like, more than guests at that point. They were just like other co-hosts [laughs] that we could rely on week in, week out to check in with them as they're working on early-stage companies. So, every time we checked in with them, they usually had some new, exciting developments. WILL: I really like that idea. How did y'all come up with that? CHAD: I'm not sure. I think a few years before I had taken over hosting of the show, and I forget...my memory maybe is that I went to Lindsey and said, "You know, let's do something different." But I'm not sure. Does that match your memory, Lindsey? LINDSEY: Yeah, I think there were two main drivers; one was I think you were feeling like you were having similar conversations in the interviews every time. Like, you couldn't get to a certain depth because every time you were interviewing someone, you were doing, like, the, "Well, tell me your founding story." And, you know, how did you raise funding? It kind of got a little bit repetitive. And then, on the side, the few we had done together, I think we both really enjoyed. So, we were thinking, like, what's the format in which the two of us could co-host together more regularly? Because I'm a pleasure to talk to [laughter]. I think you were like, I need to talk to Lindsey more. [inaudible 3:13] VICTORIA: What is your hosting style? How would you describe your approach to hosting a podcast? LINDSEY: I mean, obviously, it's a podcast about products and business. I think as a marketer, I am, you know, drawn a lot to the marketing side, so tending to ask questions around go-to-market audience, users. That's always just, like, a particular interest of mine. But then also, like, the feelings. I love asking about the feelings of things, you know, how did it feel when you started? How did it feel when you made this tough decision? So, that's another thing I think I noticed in my interviews is asking about some of the emotions behind business decisions. VICTORIA: And I like hearing about how people felt at the time and then how they felt afterwards [laughs]. And, like, how people around them supported each other and that type of thing. That's really fun. I'm curious, too, from your marketing background and having to do with podcasts like; some founders, I think, get the advice to just start a podcast to start building a community. But I'm curious on your thoughts about, like, how does podcasting really play into, like, business and marketing development for products? LINDSEY: Oh yeah. It's become definitely, like, a standard channel in B2B these days. I feel like that it's pretty typical for a company to have a podcast as one way that they engage their audience and their users. In marketing, you're really vying for people's attention, and people's attention span is getting shorter and shorter. So, like, if you have an ad or a blog, you're getting, like, seconds, maybe minutes of someone's attention. And whereas something like a podcast offers a unique channel to have someone's undivided attention for, you know, 30 minutes, an hour, and if you're lucky, you know, checking back in week over week. So, it became a really popular method. That said, I think you're probably also seeing the market get saturated [laughs] with podcasts now, so some diminishing returns. And, you know, as always, kind of looking for, you know, what's the next way? What's the next thing that people are interested in in ways to capture their attention? CHAD: What is the next thing? LINDSEY: I don't know, back to micro-content? TikTok videos -- CHAD: Yeah, I was going to say TikTok, yeah. LINDSEY: Yeah, you know, 10-30 seconds, what can you communicate? VICTORIA: I see people live streaming on Twitch a lot for coding and developer products. LINDSEY: Yeah, I think we've seen some of that, too. We've been experimenting more at thoughtbot with live streaming as well. It's another interesting mechanism. But yeah, I don't know, it's interesting. It's another form of, like, community and how people engage with their communities. So, it's always evolving. It's always evolving, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes, people just do want to get in a room together, too, which is always interesting. WILL: What has been, in your experience, the good the bad? Like, how do you feel about the way that it has shifted? Because I think you started in, like, 2000, like, kind of earlier 2000, 2005, something around there. And it was totally different than now like you're saying. Because I feel like, you know, Channel 5 30-second ad, you know, with some of the marketing depending on what you're doing, to now to where you're, like, you're paying influencers to advertise your product, or you're doing an ad. Or it's more social media-driven and tech-driven. What has been your opinion and feelings on the way that it has grown and evolved? LINDSEY: Marketing, in general, yeah, I graduated college in 2005 and started my marketing career. And yeah, you could, like, actually get people to click on banner ads back then, which was pretty [inaudible 07:14] [laughs]. WILL: I forgot about banner ads [laughs]. LINDSEY: I don't know, yeah. I don't know. In order for myself to not just get too frustrated, I think I've got to, like, view it as a game kind of. What new things are we going to try? You know, what do we see work? But it can really depend. And I've always been in B2B side of things. And consumer, I'm sure, has its own kind of evolution around how people engage and how they consume content and byproducts. But in B2B, you know, it can really depend on industry too. You know, I'm working with a client right now in the senior living space, and they're really big in in-person conferences. So, that's how people consume, get a lot of their information and, make connections, and learn about new products. So, it's been interesting to work in an industry that what might be considered, like, a little bit more old-school channels are still effective. And then just thinking about how you weave in the new channels with the existing ones without ignoring them. They might get information in conferences, but they're still a modern human who will then, you know, search online to learn more, for example. VICTORIA: It reminds me of a phrase I like to say, which is that, like, technology never dies; you just have more of it. There's just more different options and more different ways to do things. And some people are always, you know, sometimes you have to be flexible and do everything. CHAD: So, tell us more about what you did in between...after you left thoughtbot, what did you do? LINDSEY: I was heading up B2B marketing for a company called Flywire, which is headquartered in Boston but is a global company now. And they were just kind of starting their B2B business unit, which, as I mentioned, B2B is my personal specialty. I had been connected to their CMO through the Boston startup community. And yeah, I was helping them kind of launch their go-to-market for B2B. The industries they were in before...they got their start in higher education and then expanded in healthcare and found a niche in luxury travel, and then we were figuring out the B2B piece. But yeah, I was there for about a year and a half. They actually went public the second week I was there, which was an interesting [laughs] experience. I knew they were, like, on that journey, but it was kind of funny to be there the second week, and people were, like, "Congrats." And I was like, "Well, I definitely didn't have anything to do with it because I just finished my onboarding, but thank you," [laughs]. CHAD: One of the things that really impressed me when you joined thoughtbot was the way in which you learned about who we were and really internalized that in a way where you were then able to pretty meaningfully understand our market, our positioning in the market, and come up with new strategies for us. I assume that's something you're good at in general [laughs]. How do you approach it? How did you approach it when you joined Flywire, for example? And how was it the same or different than how you approached thoughtbot? LINDSEY: Ooh, yeah, that's a good question. And I appreciate that comment because it's difficult. But I think, yeah, with any new organization that I'm joining, you know, I think starting out with your kind of mini-listening tour of your key stakeholders across, you know, the different departmental focuses to get a sense of, what are the challenges? What are the opportunities? It's actually like, you know, it's the SWOT analysis, kind of trying to fill in your own mind map of a SWOT analysis of where the company is. What are the major hurdles you're facing? Where are people trying to go? What have they tried that's worked? What have they tried that's failed? But then, like, I think for the culture component, I think a part of that maybe is, like, feel, and maybe something that I do have a knack for. Again, maybe this is, like, you know, emotional intelligence quotient, where it's like, you know, but it's the company, you know, who is this company? What is important to them? How do they work and go about things? I know thoughtbot is certainly very unique, I think, in that arena in terms of being, like, a really value-driven company, and one where especially, like, marketing and business work is, like, distributed across teams in a really interesting way. You know, I'm sure the fact that it fascinated me and was something I could get passionate and get behind was something that also helped me understand it quickly. CHAD: I was excited that...or it was sort of a coincidence because I had reached out to you and without realizing that you had left Flywire. And Kelly, who had been doing a combined sales and marketing role, was going on parental leave. And so, it was fortuitous [laughs] that you were able to come back and help us and provide coverage, like, Kelly was out. LINDSEY: Yeah, it definitely felt like stars aligned moment, which, you know, I'm pretty woo-woo, so I believe in [laughter]...I believe in that kind of thing. You know, yeah, it was wild. It really did feel like your email came out of nowhere. And, you know, I mentioned it, obviously, to my partner and my friends. And they were like, "Oh, he definitely knows, like, that you left your last company." And I'm like, "I actually don't think he does [laughter]. I actually don't think he does." Yeah, and then we started chatting about me coming back to help. And it was great. thoughtbot makes it hard to work anywhere else [laughs]. So, I was happy to come back. I missed the team. CHAD: And one of the exciting things, and you've mentioned it, is you're not just doing marketing for thoughtbot now. We have started to offer your services to our clients. LINDSEY: Yeah, I'm super excited about this. And it's something I'd started thinking about. I had decided to take some time off between Flywire and my next thing and had started thinking about doing marketing, consulting. And as I'm doing that, I'm thinking a lot about how thoughtbot does consulting and, you know, wanting to emulate something like that. So, I started back up at thoughtbot. That wasn't part of the plan. I was just going to, you know, fill in for Kelly and help with marketing things. But then, you know, a good opportunity arose to work on a client, and I was really excited. When, you know, Chad, you and I chatted through it, we came to the conclusion that this was something worth exploring under the, you know, thoughtbot umbrella. And it's been a really great experience so far. And we now have brought on another client now. And if you're listening and need early-stage B2B marketing support, reach out to lindsey@thoughtbot.com. CHAD: Definitely. And Lindsey is pretty good, so you're going to like it [laughs]. LINDSEY: Yeah, you're going to like the way you look. WILL: Yeah, definitely. Because I can even feel your presence here, you know, coming back. Because even like, you know, the market where it's at now and some of the suggestions that, you know, you've been helping us. For example, like, I do a lot of React Native, and you're like, "Hey, you know, blog posts have done a lot of traction, you know, let's get some more blog posts out in the market to help with the traffic and everything." So, the question I have with that is, like, thank you for even suggesting that because it's, like, those little things that you don't even think about. It's like, oh yeah, blog posts, that's an easy transition to help the market, clients, things like that. But with the market the way it is, what has been your experience working during this time with the market? I don't know if you want to call it struggling, but whatever you want to call it that, it's doing [laughs]. LINDSEY: Yeah, I mean, the economy is difficult now. We also went through a really tough spot when I was here last time. During COVID, you know, we faced a major company challenge. And, I mean, I'll let Chad speak to it, but I would imagine it's probably one of the bigger, like, economic inflection points that you faced. Would you say that? CHAD: Yeah, definitely. The thing about it that made it worse was how quickly it happened. You know, it was something that you didn't see coming, and then, you know, about 40% of our business went away in a single month. That's the kind of thing that was a real shock to the system. I think the thing that made it difficult, too, was then the aspects of COVID, where we were no longer able to go into our studios. We were all working remotely. We were isolated from each other. And so, that made executing on what needed to be done in order to make the company survive additionally challenging. LINDSEY: Yeah, so I think, like, going through that experience, also, and seeing how the team and the leadership team rallied together to get through it. And then, you know, ultimately, I think 2021 and 2022 have, like, really good years. That was a really positive experience. And something I'll definitely take with me for a while is just, like, keeping a cool head and just knowing you have, like, really smart, talented folks with you working on it and that you can get through it. And just, like, doing some, I mean, we relied on what we did best, which was, like, design thinking, using design exercise to think about, like, how we might re-organize the company, or what other services we might try launching, or how might we re-package, you know, larger services into smaller more palatable services when people have, like, kind of tighter purse strings. So, that was, like, a great educational experience, and I think something we just continue to do now: be open to change, be open to changing how we package services, what clients we go after, and coming at it with, like, an agile, experimental mindset and try to find out what works. VICTORIA: I really appreciate that. And it aligns now with the new service we've developed around you and the marketing that you provide. And I'm curious because I've had founders come up to me who say they need help with marketing or they need to, like, figure out their marketing plans. So, say you've met a founder who has this question, like, what questions do you ask them to kind of narrow down what it is they really need and really want to get out of a marketing plan? LINDSEY: I've been thinking about this a lot recently. And, like, obviously, I see other marketing leaders in the market. Marketers like to talk about what they do on LinkedIn [laughs], so I get to...I read a lot about different people's approaches to this. And some people kind of go in and are like, okay, this is what you need. This is how we're going to do it, and they start executing on it. And I really do take a very collaborative approach with founders. I think they're, especially in early stage, they're your most important asset in a way, and a lot of their intuition around the market and the business, you know, it's gotten them to where they're at. And so, I think starting from the point of, like, taking what they view as priorities or challenges, and then helping them better explore them or understand them with my own marketing experience and expertise, to

As remote work gains more traction, we have to find the best ways to communicate from a distance, so today on the show we discuss our favorite screen sharing and remote collaboration apps. From pair programming and code sharing software to video chat applications boasting drawing functionality and cool screen widgets, you'll hear our take on the landscape of tools that allow you to connect with your friends and co-workers from the comfort of your home. We talk about how our beloved Screenhero got butchered by Slack and whether its predecessor, Screen.so is doing a good job of carrying the baton. Zoom, Slack and Google Meet all support video conferencing and a limited degree of extra features, but there is some bias as to what people prefer. We move on to discuss more programmer-centric apps that allow remote control and code sharing and which work best for your preferred IDE.

Years ago there was this app that allowed developers to see each other’s screen, to interact with the screen at the same time to talk to each other. It was called Screenhero. It had a fan base that was just rabid in the developer community. But Screenhero got bought out by Slack and ultimately closed it down. The developers who loved it were upset, but here’s the beauty of that business. Instead of just being upset, today’s guest actually jumped in to do something about it. Ben Orenstein is the founder of Tuple, a remote pair programming app. Ben Orenstein is the founder of Tuple, a remote pair programming app. Sponsored byHostGator – Ready to take your website to the next level? Whether you’re a first-time blogger or an experienced web pro, HostGator has all the tools you need to create a great-looking website or online store. A wide range of options includes cloud-based web hosting, reseller hosting, VPS hosting and dedicated servers. Founded in 2002, HostGator is the perfect web partner for business owners and individuals seeking hands-on support. Visit www.hostgator.com/mixergy to see what HostGator can do for your website. Linkedin – How can you ensure the people you want to target are going to be in the right mindset to receive your message? The answer is LinkedIn. When you market on LinkedIn, your message reaches people who are ready to do business and that means your advertising campaign will work as hard as you can. Over 62 million decision makers are on Linkedin and they’re thinking about their business when they’re on the platform. Do business where business gets done, get a $100 advertising credit towards your first LinkedIn campaign. Just visit Linkedin.com/mixergy More interviews -> https://mixergy.com/moreint Rate this interview -> https://mixergy.com/rateint

Today, I'm talking with , a co-founder of , the best remote pair-programming app on macOS, and co-host of . Ben was a developer at thoughtbot but left to start Tuple to fill the gap in the remote pair-programming market after Slack shut down Screenhero. They launched just two years ago and in that time have grown to a place where the 3 co-founders have all replaced their developer salaries and are able to build out their team. They've done all of this while remaining bootstrapped and profitable and their growth is accelerating from here. In our chat, we dig into Ben's evolving role as CEO and focus on two crucial topics: how he developed his enterprise sales skills, landing huge clients like Shopify, and how he's navigating the challenges of hiring. I was introduced to Ben by a previous guest of the show, , and I'm glad he connected us because we had a great conversation that you won't want to miss.

Ben Orenstein (@r00k) is the founder of Tuple, a remote pair programming app for the Mac that fills the void left by ScreenHero's disappearance. Ben joined the show for a second time to catch us up on Tuple's progress as a profitable pre-launch business. We talked about the benefits of creating a public roadmap that you can share with customers, the importance of learning by selling, Ben's gameplan for Tuple's public launch, and why it's important to focus on growth long before launch day.Transcript, speaker information, and more: https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/113-quick-chat-with-ben-orenstein

Derrick’s short notice about not co-hosting this episode because of being on a plane, and Ben not knowing or planning what to discuss, who and what’s left? Updates and reports on Tuple and Tailwind. Welcome back Adam Wathan! Today’s Topics Include: Today’s Trend: Advisor/investor/founder journals and reports of accomplishments Serves as a way to stay in touch, build relationships, ask questions, and get feedback Three Tuple Reports Later: Things are still going good Programming meets Business: Gary Bernhardt commits to being future podcast guest Successful Tuple Shipments: Significant use of Webcam feature Pricing Options: Ben expresses concern over free trials or pre-paid plans to capture credit cards and emails Invite-only vs. Public Launch: Continue as is, or open Tuple up to all Tuple Update: Revenue is growing quickly, receiving 70-100 support tickets weekly, and room to add customers Tailwind Update: Adam launched first set of videos for Tailwind CSS course Tailwind Subscription/Price Structure: Yet to be determined Adam’s Prediction: Education and documentation determine open source winner Links and resources: Adam Wathan on Twitter (https://twitter.com/adamwathan) Full Stack Radio (http://www.fullstackradio.com/) Tailwind CSS (https://tailwindcss.com/) Refactoring UI by Adam Wathan and Steve Schoger (https://refactoringui.com/) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Tyler Tringas on Twitter (https://twitter.com/tylertringas?lang=en) Brian Casel (https://briancasel.com/) Gary Bernhardt on Twitter (https://twitter.com/garybernhardt) ExecuteProgram.com (https://www.executeprogram.com/) David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH) on Twitter (https://twitter.com/dhh) Giant Robots Episode 26: Deep into the psyche of Gary Bernhardt (https://giantrobots.fm/episodes/26) Giant Robots Episode 27: Fabulous new mistakes with Joe Ferris (https://giantrobots.fm/episodes/27) Giant Robots Episode 28: Farther, further, faster with David Heinemeier Hansson (https://giantrobots.fm/episodes/28) Node.js (https://nodejs.org/) React (https://reactjs.org/) Ruby on Rails (https://rubyonrails.org/) Zoom (https://zoom.us/) Superhuman (https://superhuman.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Slack (https://slack.com/) GitHub (https://github.com/) Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) StaticKit (https://www.statickit.com/) Level (https://level.app/) Level Retrospective (https://www.derrickreimer.com/essays/2019/05/17/im-walking-away-from-the-product-i-spent-a-year-building.html) Level Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto)

While Derrick is away, Ben welcomes Don Goodman-Wilson, who was the first hire at Screenhero in 2013. Don shares his version of Screenhero’s incredible journey, its migration to Slack, and Tuple coming to the rescue. Better late than never! Today’s Topics Include: Work Ethic/Culture: Doctorate in philosophy requires logic and dedication Engineering Challenges: Learning low-level C/C++ code in Screenhero product Microsoft Windows and Apple Mac: Harmonizing code bases Web Application Programming: User interface (UI), reliability, latency, quality, and billing Product/Market Fit: Quick growth, adoption, and implementation of Screenhero Pair Programming: Personal and professional sharing and collaboration Second Day at First Expo: Atlassian’s interest, followed by Slack’s acquisition Platform of Choice: Who’s the best partner to work with to achieve Screenhero’s goals? In and Out of the Sandbox: Screenhero’s prone to crashing and uses private APIs Slack destroyed Screenhero: Expectations and compromises created culture clash Heartbreaking, Rational Reality: Removal of remote screen control in Slack calls Maintainerati’s Mission: Understand challenges and offer solutions for maintaining open source software Links and resources: Don Goodman-Wilson (https://don.goodman-wilson.com/)  Don Goodman-Wilson on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/degoodmanwilson) Maintainerati (https://maintainerati.org) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Y Combinator (https://www.ycombinator.com/) Slack (https://slack.com) The Screenhero Story - The Screenhero Blog (https://blog.screenhero.com/post/109339022326/the-screenhero-story) Removal of remote screen control in Slack calls (https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/360022908874-Removal-of-remote-screen-control-in-Slack-calls) Atlassian (https://www.atlassian.com/) HipChat (https://www.atlassian.com/partnerships/slack) WebRTC (https://webrtc.org/) Redis (https://redis.io/) Python (https://www.python.org/) Stripe (https://stripe.com/) Ractive.js (https://ractive.js.org/) Ruby-Grape Rack (https://github.com/ruby-grape/grape) Ruby on Rails (https://rubyonrails.org/) Dropbox (https://www.dropbox.com/) Google Hangouts (https://tools.google.com/dlpage/hangoutplugin) Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Maintainerati on Twitter (https://twitter.com/Maintainerati) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) StaticKit (https://www.statickit.com/) Level (https://level.app/) Level Retrospective (https://www.derrickreimer.com/essays/2019/05/17/im-walking-away-from-the-product-i-spent-a-year-building.html) Level Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto)

Summer is in full swing. Ben spent a fun and productive day talking about work at a Red Sox game. It was an own-your-own business startup moment. Derrick can see clearly now, thanks to SMILE laser eye surgery. But he’s still seeking clarity on whether to make the masses happy, or stick to core concerns to attract specific customers when creating a new product. Today’s Topics Include: Tuple Grows Up: New version of marketing site getting ready to launch Cha Ching: Confirmation of biggest single Tuple invoice sent for payment How much wisdom is there in the crowd? Can you trust it? Remote Control: Tuple customers give up control to use driver/navigator pairing Self-serve Sign-up: Tuple strives for automation, learning, and feedback Time for a Truce: Trash talking, name calling stops for Slack to send customers to Tuple Soon to be released: Derrick’s StaticKit, a modern approach for embedding dynamic forms onto static sites Links and resources: StaticKit (https://www.statickit.com/) Art of Product Podcast Episode 91: Feeling Superhuman with Rahul Vohra (https://artofproductpodcast.com/episode-91) Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) Level (https://level.app/) Level Retrospective (https://www.derrickreimer.com/essays/2019/05/17/im-walking-away-from-the-product-i-spent-a-year-building.html) Level Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto) Jekyll (https://jekyllrb.com/) Middleman (https://middlemanapp.com/) Gatsby (https://www.gatsbyjs.org/) Hugo (https://gohugo.io/) Next (https://nextjs.org/) React (https://reactjs.org/) Superhuman Product-Market Fit Survey (https://www.slideshare.net/marklittlewood/rahul-vohra-founderceo-superhuman-the-productmarket-fit-engine-122102118) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Stripe (https://stripe.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Slack (https://slack.com/) Removal of remote screen control in Slack calls (https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/360022908874-Removal-of-remote-screen-control-in-Slack-calls) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Netlify (https://www.netlify.com/) Zeit (https://zeit.co/) Mailchimp (https://mailchimp.com/) ConvertKit (https://convertkit.com/) JSON (https://www.json.org/) Zapier (https://zapier.com/) FormKeep (https://formkeep.com/) Heroku (https://www.heroku.com/) Ruby on Rails (https://rubyonrails.org/) Medium (https://medium.com/) Phoenix (https://phoenixframework.org/)

After a QuickTime error eradicated Paul Jarvis’s conversation with Ben and Derrick for an Art of Product episode, he’s back with an update on his recently published book, Company of One. Should Paul strike while the iron is hot? Despite the book’s success and being encouraged to write another one, Paul wants to take a necessary break before proposing a new book idea. Today’s Topics Include: Legally Binding Thumbs-up Emoji: How Paul sold rights for book to be in 13 languages Break between Building: Frustration of figuring things out, replaced with hammock thinking and relaxation Paul’s writing process fills fountain of ideas; ready to do a book on digital privacy Slack Support Group: Help yourself and others Level Failure Leads to Filtering Idea Criteria: Shouldn’t be mission-critical product; require more than a few decision makers; and native apps shouldn’t be a minimum requirement Company of One: Doesn’t necessarily refer to one person, but mindset Balance between technology you know and learning curve for something you don’t Software as a Service (SaaS) Business: Scale up or stay small? Derrick describes Company of One as what he aspires toward, but is open to possibility of co-founders Nothing Lasts Forever: Question growth, not stagnation Seek and scale support, especially when using third-party software Drumroll, Please: Ben announced plans for public launch of Tuple in August 2019 Links and resources: Paul Jarvis (https://pjrvs.com/) Company of One (https://ofone.co/) Company of One (Co1) Academy (https://ofone.co/learn/) Company of One Podcast (https://ofone.co/company-of-one-podcast/) Fathom (https://usefathom.com/) Paul Jarvis on Twitter (https://twitter.com/pjrvs/) Paul Jarvis’s WPComplete Plugin (https://wpcomplete.co/) Ingenx (https://www.ingenxtec.com/) The Year of Living Biblically by A.J. Jacobs (https://ajjacobs.com/books/the-year-of-living-biblically/) Slack (https://slack.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Rob Walling (https://robwalling.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Finding My Next Bootstrapped Business Idea (https://www.derrickreimer.com/essays/2019/05/28/finding-my-next-bootstrapped-business-idea.html) DigitalOcean (https://www.digitalocean.com/) Heroku (https://www.heroku.com/) Ruby on Rails (https://rubyonrails.org/) Phoenix (https://phoenixframework.org/) Superhuman (https://superhuman.com/) Hacker News (https://news.ycombinator.com/) Art of Product Podcast Episode 91: Feeling Superhuman with Rahul Vohra (https://artofproductpodcast.com/episode-91) Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Level (https://level.app/) Level Retrospective (https://www.derrickreimer.com/essays/2019/05/17/im-walking-away-from-the-product-i-spent-a-year-building.html) Level Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto)

The world received amazing news in the form of a great gift: Slack is making a major change in the market—it’s leaving! Ben and Derrick share their thoughts on Slack’s reasonable and rational decision to remove remote control functionality. What happens now? Try Tuple! Just sayin’, actually that’s what Tuple customers are suggesting. Today’s Topics Include: Improve Slack Calls: Reason for removing rarely used remote control feature Kicking marketing machine into gear: Customers’ kind words generated surge in requests for access to Tuple Slack and Screenhero Saga: Complete story of acquisition and pair programming will probably never be told Keep shipping, swinging, and taking shots by increasing luck surface area and learning from previous successes and failures Dear Dvorak user, is it time to switch? Tuple’s shipping international keyboard support Big deals keep coming in for Ben; it’s great to sometimes say, “No” Derrick’s writing cadence continues; flattered by onslaught of positivity from people Product/Founder Fit: Be passionate about product or business before building it Pressure to be Perfect: Don’t sweat the small stuff, just the details Links and resources: Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Just Keep Shipping by Derrick Reimer (https://www.derrickreimer.com/essays/2019/05/31/just-keep-shipping.html) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) Level (https://level.app/) Level Retrospective (https://www.derrickreimer.com/essays/2019/05/17/im-walking-away-from-the-product-i-spent-a-year-building.html) Slack (https://slack.com/) Removal of remote screen control in Slack calls (https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/360022908874-Removal-of-remote-screen-control-in-Slack-calls) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Zoom (https://zoom.us/) GitHub (https://github.com/) The Dvorak Keyboard (https://www.dvorak-keyboard.com/) Adam Watham (https://adamwathan.me/)

Derrick’s been traveling and finding inspiration from re-reading Deep Work, a kind of manifesto of what Level stands for. He’s discovering how to position and market Level, as well as recognize things in his own work patterns that need to change. Ben’s been feeling anxiety and thinking about Tuple’s broader mission and impact on the world. He believes deep work can be accomplished through the powerful practice of pair programming. Today’s Topics Include: Embracing Boredom: Derrick removed Twitter and email client from his phone as dependence on distraction Recruiting next wave of paying customers; reminding people what Level is and why they should care about it Learning is a valid category of work you can do during the day; productive use of time Ability to go deep and focus is a skill most people have lost; getting back into the mindset Tuple’s mission and onboarding campaign; selling a solution to an underlying problem Apprenticeship: Learn and gain expertise from peers Derrick’s main piece of content for Level may not be about specific tool to achieve mindful workplace Celebrating call quality feedback feature in Tuple; customized CRM to close the deal Links and resources: Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide) Deep Work by Cal Newport (https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Work-Focused-Success-Distracted/dp/1455586692) The Challenger Sale by Matthew Dixon (https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Sale-Control-Customer-Conversation/dp/1591844355) Heroku (https://www.heroku.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Ruby on Rails (https://rubyonrails.org/) Podcast Motor (https://www.podcastmotor.com/) Clearbit (https://clearbit.com/) Brennan Dunn’s Double Your Freelancing (https://doubleyourfreelancing.com)

Ben has been busy. The alpha launch date for Tuple was Jan. 7. He was nervous about it, but so far, it’s going well. One participant said, “I’m sort of surprised you’re calling this an ‘alpha,’ because everything seems to work!” Ben was glad to hear it, but admits that’s not totally true. He’s still far from where he wants to be with Tuple, but is definitely on the right track. Derrick has been hard at work, too. He continues to develop Level and knows that there will be ups and downs with customers, functionality, etc. But, he continues to move forward and strives to help others solve problems associated with team communication. Today’s Topics Include: Importance of manually onboarding people via calls about product Setting expectations and communication efforts for a rolling roll out Users understand that bugs will happen and offer friendly feedback Experimenting with pricing models for product’s current and future releases Tuple’s performance dashboard displays key details; caring about things that matter Bandwidth: Do fewer things and do them well to be able to compete Level’s future strategies and goals regarding customers and feedback If a product can solve a user’s problem, then it’s good enough to give to them Poor execution and explanation of Drip’s price increase Links and resources: Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) Calendly (https://calendly.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Superhuman (https://superhuman.com/) Jason Fried (https://twitter.com/jasonfried) Jason Cohen (https://twitter.com/asmartbear) Brian Casel (https://briancasel.com/)

Derrick continues to make progress and work toward his self-imposed deadline for Level. He was able to implement and ship batched notifications for the product, which replaces the instantaneous push notifications you would get from a chat tool. It’ll probably be one of the key features to sell as part of the “Level” way. But he’s wondering how to leverage interesting features in marketing. Ben has been thinking about the same thing with Tuple. He wants to make some features of his product be a seperate, discrete entity that deserves its own spotlight. Capitalize on features! Today’s Topics Include: Craft a narrative around “why we did this and the choices we made” for features Tuple offers two modes: Navigator and Copilot Avoid labeling every single feature as a big deal; strike a careful balance Derrick’s working on reactions feature for Level; encourages thoughtful responses Difference between like and acknowledge notifications; making them stateful Derrick closed pre-orders for Level on Dec. 14 and figuring out pricing paradigm Derrick plans to do individual onboarding to set users up for success with Level People are willing to pre-pay; optimize for meaningful engagement and feedback When something is not going well and you don’t know how to fix it, know you’re not alone Ben’s Bad Day: Pairing session revealed bugs and latency issues with Tuple Coping strategies for dealing with catastrophes; don’t freak out, blow out of proportion Tuple’s Week: Added 200 to mailing list, chasing leads, and improving product Links and resources: Art of Product on Twitter (https://twitter.com/artofproductpod) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Stripe (https://stripe.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Slack (https://slack.com/) Basecamp (https://basecamp.com/) iOS (https://developer.apple.com/ios/) Superhuman (https://superhuman.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/)

Ben and Derrick were hoping to share a great conversation they had with author, designer, and consultant Paul Jarvis. But, without warning, all was lost when Paul’s audio for the episode could not be saved. The plan is to have Paul back on the show in a few weeks. Everything else is going pretty well for Derrick, who provides an update on Level. He met his goal and launched the Level Early Access Program two weeks ago. When it comes to testing Tuple, Ben plans to prioritize people early on who have good bandwidth and help guide them to be successful when using the tool. Today’s Topics Include: Takeaway and Wake-up Call: Derrick has 6 teams in the early access program; some are using Level a lot, some are not - people are busy and running their own business Quality feedback for Level testing; offers unknowns, guidance, and clarifications Derrick’s working on a feature to make sure users remember to check back into Level because it’s designed to be unobtrusive and not bother you Make a good first impression; capture users’ vision and maintain their interest Derrick addressed people’s questions about how Level works and will solve their problems via storytelling with concrete, mechanical product details Derrick is battling perfection, but wants to generate pre-order revenue and set a rolling launch deadline for Level - ideally in January, to highlight new tools in the new year Ben is doing a podcast tour to promote Tuple, which had its best week for sign ups so far Tuple also experienced a technical breakthrough - it crushed latency; trust your team to get things done Tuple adventure is predicated on a value proposition that Tuple can be better than off-the-shelf products because of its key differentiators Ben is not your everyday developer; recently took a leap and hit the bigtime being a backup singer for Josh Groban! Links and resources: Paul Jarvis (https://pjrvs.com/) Trello (https://trello.com/) Elixir (https://elixir-lang.org/) Slack (https://slack.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) CodeNewbie Podcast (https://www.codenewbie.org/podcast) Bits and Trees Podcast (https://podcast.bitsandtrees.com/6) Full Stack Radio Podcast (http://www.fullstackradio.com/101) Ruby Testing Podcast (http://www.rubytestingpodcast.com/) Bootstrapped Web Podcast (http://bootstrappedweb.com/ben-orenstein-joins-us-talk-bootstrapping/) Swift (https://developer.apple.com/swift/) JSON (https://www.json.org/) Postmark (https://postmarkapp.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Josh Groban (http://www.joshgroban.com/) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Level Manifesto (https://level.app/manifesto) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide)

Ben is working on marketing plans for Tuple and it’s associated Pair Programming Guide. So, what does someone he admires think of his growth and content marketing plans? In this episode, Ben’s special guest is Julian Shapiro, who shares lesser known growth tactics he has used in his content marketing to be successful. Today’s Topics Include: Write content that’s best for your target audience; what do you want them to get out of it? Goal: To have people read your content or buy your product Content marketing in the form of in-depth guides is effective in building a presence and getting people to trust you to pay a high price for your product An audience is an asset; you can identify how much they can be monetized for whatever you want to build in the future Content needs to be more than good; establish credibility, awareness, and knowledge Focus on getting new email subscribers or prepare for the launch of Tuple? Capture people’s interest when you have it Tuple’s Approach to Growth: Release product to a small group to get feedback, release to another group for further testing, repeat, and then expand scope of growth efforts Push content to address objections; why customers need/should care about something How do you apply growth marketing to a giant piece of content? Ads don’t work; A/B test to optimize content; pitch a product, but don’t jeopardize your integrity Non-paid promotion of content - get on Hacker News; never ask someone to upvote, but use a title that expresses deep annoyance and grief about the state of tech SEO is easier with small pieces of content; don’t go for low-hanging fruit, but head turns Part of the magic of Tuple - making it fast to address latency and not feel like a hack Growth should be a core competency of any startup Links and resources: Julian Shapiro (https://www.julian.com) Julian Shapiro on Twitter (https://twitter.com/julian) Bell Curve (https://www.bellcurve.com/) Bell Curve Training (https://www.bellcurve.com/training) Gary Vaynerchuk (https://www.garyvaynerchuk.com/) Tim Ferriss (https://tim.blog/) Hacker News (https://news.ycombinator.com/) TechCrunch (https://techcrunch.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) Superhuman (https://superhuman.com/) Derrick Reimer (http://www.derrickreimer.com) Website Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Website Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k?lang=en) Level (https://level.app/) Tuple (https://tuple.app/) Tuple’s Pair Programming Guide (https://tuple.app/pair-programming-guide)

In this episode we talk about…ethical technology and ethical OS, ScalaWorld, Netflix explains, FP for mortals and Lego Bugatti!! Note: There is some background hum on this recording. On balance we’ve published it to support the blog post, but take heed! Where bytes and bites collide.

In this episode we talk about…ethical technology and ethical OS, ScalaWorld, Netflix explains, FP for mortals and Lego Bugatti!! Note: There is some background hum on this recording. On balance we’ve published it to support the blog post, but take heed! Where bytes and bites collide.

In this episode of Workflow, Brian and Tom talk about what Slack is good at, what it's not good at, and tips for using it.

Show Notes Microsoft to acquire GitHub (https://news.microsoft.com/2018/06/04/microsoft-to-acquire-github-for-7-5-billion/) I’m Nat Friedman, future CEO of GitHub. AMA. (https://www.reddit.com/r/AMA/comments/8pc8mf/im_nat_friedman_future_ceo_of_github_ama/) ScreenHero joins Slack (http://blog.screenhero.com/post/109337923751/screenhero-joins-slack) Zoom (https://zoom.us/) Magic: The Gathering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic:_The_Gathering) magique - A tool that applies genetic algorithms to building Magic: The Gathering decks. (https://github.com/DEGoodmanWilson/magique) Latent Dirichlet allocation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent_Dirichlet_allocation) MarI/O - Machine Learning for Video Games (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6UVOQ0F44) Swackett (https://sweaterjacketorcoat.com/) Boodler: a programmable soundscape tool (https://github.com/erkyrath/boodler) Corelation does not imply causation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation) A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy (https://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/1522632735/parpaspod-20) Recommendations Short stories by Jorge Luis Borges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Short_stories_by_Jorge_Luis_Borges) The City & The City (https://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/034549752X/parpaspod-20) The Good Place (https://www.netflix.com/title/80113701) Don Goodman-Wilson Twitter (https://twitter.com/DEGoodmanWilson) GitHub (https://github.com/DEGoodmanWilson) Personal Page (https://don.goodman-wilson.com/) Parallel Passion Patreon (https://www.patreon.com/parpaspod) Twitter (https://www.twitter.com/parpaspod) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/parpaspod) Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/parpaspod) Credits Tina Tavčar (https://twitter.com/tinatavcar) for the logo Jan Jenko (https://twitter.com/JanJenko) for the music

He’s back! Ben returns from traveling to Hong Kong. He shared his rails knowledge by helping someone who is building a business and using a rails app. He made performance improvements and refactored items. Derrick is also doing some Vim tutoring. Learning something new does not take long or a lot of money, and gets easier. Of course, both Ben and Derrick continue to work on their new products, as well. Derrick is creating Level, an open source team communication and management tool. Ben is starting Tuple, a pair programming tool alternative for Screenhero. Today’s Topics Include: How to do file browser for projects in Vim: CtrlP; baked-in and plug-ins options for Vim Build and code, but talking to customers can impact your course and business Derrick is posting small, hot tips on Twitter that are nuggets of valuable knowledge Likes and retweets growing Derrick’s number of followers Ben needs to tweet more to market to developers for his new product - Tuple Derrick continues to work on Level; categorizing communication and how to present it Notion of urgency is big issue with Slack that Derrick needs to address with Level Brainstorming sometimes needs conversation, and sometimes long periods of silence Controlling distractions and creating checklists are part of Derrick’s daily routine Derrick is improving the copywriting and calls to action on Level’s landing page Ben plans to incentivize people via annual plan upsells Derrick is considering a referral tracking mechanism as an incentive Big transitions and uncertainty generate anxiety for Ben, but he now has strategies to deal with it Trying to create a thing that did not exist before is different than something that already exists; it is harder and more stressful, and you’ll feel pain and be unsure Ben’s role as external-facing sales and marketing vs. product development and coding Structuring to make yourself happy, but keeping staff happy, too; everyone should like what they are doing Links and resources: Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Vim (https://www.vim.org/) CtrlP (https://github.com/kien/ctrlp.vim) Your First vimrc Should be Nearly Empty (http://www.benorenstein.com/blog/your-first-vimrc-should-be-nearly-empty) Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Momentum (https://momentumdash.com/) Mathias Meyer (https://twitter.com/roidrage?lang=en) Reboot Podcast - How You Walk Through the World with Seth Godin (https://www.reboot.io/episode/83-walk-world-seth-godin/)

In this episode we are talking about our remote work tools that enable our distributed team across the world to collaborate, design, and build software. Throughout the episode, Todd, Ken, and Jamon touch on their favorite tools—from Slack, Zoom, and Google Sheets—why they chose them, and the ways they have added custom features to really make the remote experience special. Show Links & Resources Slack Zoom G Suite BlueJeans Screenhero RealtimeBoard InVision Trello Airtable Shush Dropbox Bigscreen VR Taking the Pain Out of Video Conferences by Ken Miller Episode Transcript CHRIS MARTIN: The topic at hand today is remote tools, and all of the different ways that you have built a remote company. Where do you even start when you're thinking about what tools to pick when you're going remote? KEN MILLER: This is Ken Miller, by the way. It happened very organically for us. To be honest, I don't know that we could've done this company this way before Slack. Because the tools that came before, Hipchat and IRC and Yammer, even though I worked there. Sorry, Yam-fam. They just didn't quite do it. Right? They didn't quite create the online atmosphere that we need to work the way that we do. Does that sound accurate to you, Todd? I feel like once we found Slack, we were like, "Holy crap, this is epic!" TODD WERTH: I think there's a few alternatives. Hipchat, at the time, wasn't good enough. There were a few alternatives we investigated. I would like to mention at the beginning of this ... This is Todd Werth, by the way. I would like to mention at the beginning, I imagine that a lot of companies in this podcast will need to be paying us an advertising fee. Like Slack. JAMON HOLMGREN: We actually adopted Slack before we were remote. We had ... I think we were using Google Hangouts or something. Or whatever of the myriad Google chats there are out there. They have like 12 apps. We were using something else in person, and then we started using Slack organically right when it first came out. TODD: Sorry about that noise you all heard. That was me throwing up a little bit in my mouth when you said "Google Hangouts". (laughter) KEN: We'll talk about video-chat in a minute. JAMON: By the way, this is Jamon Holmgren. It was ... Initially, we jumped onboard. They did a really good job marketing themselves. We had used Hipchat a little bit, but it just wasn't what we expected. We started using Slack. That was in early 2014, I think it was? I don't think it's a coincidence that within a year and a half we ended up going remote. I think that was one of the enabling tools. We got used to it in the office, but it enabled remote work. TODD: To talk about chat apps or chat services is important, but on a more general standpoint, I would say how you approach it is actually try 'em and do it. A lot of companies seem to just use whatever is available and not look for optimum solutions. If trying three or four different chat systems is too onerous for you, that's probably the wrong attitude, in my opinion. KEN: You think, "don't settle". Don't assume that the first thing that you try is the only thing, and then conclude that remote isn't gonna work because the tool that you tried sucks. JAMON: We tried a lot of tools at ClearSight, before the merger. We tried ... I can't even name them all, to be honest. Part of it is because I like ... I'm a gadget guy, I like to try new things and see how it goes. There was actually a lot of skepticism around Slack because they're just yet another tool that they had to log into and pay attention to. "We already had the email, so do we really need this." It was kinda funny, when I went back and looked at our inner-company email, just tracked ... I think I used the "everyone@clearsightstudio.com" or something email address to track how often we were using it for company communications. It just dropped off a cliff after Slack. The amount of email, the volume of email that was flying around went way, way, way down. In fact, I remember we used to send GIFs in the email threads, and stuff. There were elements of the culture that we have today in Slack going on in email threads. Slack was just so much more well-suited to that. That actually came about very organically. We had tried a bunch of different things. We tried Slack, and it just picked up steam, picked up steam, picked up steam. TODD: I don't ... I'm not even exaggerating, I don't believe I've ever sent an email to anyone at Infinite Red internally. I don't think so. KEN: Unless it's a forward from someone external. TODD: Correct. I think there's people on our team who probably don't check their email very often because they don't have a lot of -- KEN: Yeah, if you don't do sales or any kind of external outreach -- TODD: Yeah. That was a sticking point a few times, when people were sending out the emails, and we had to ... They were wondering why people weren't responding, it's because the variety of people never check their email. JAMON: It is funny, because email does still, it is still a tool that we use for remote communication with outside clients, especially people first coming to us. But as soon as we can, we get them onto Slack because we've found that that level of communication is the least friction, it's very seamless. Slack is definitely featuring very centrally in our remote-tool story, for sure. TODD: Rather than just ... I'm sure a lot of people out there use Slack. If you don't, give it a try. But rather than just gushing on Slack, I do wanna say that the important part here is we did go through a lot of different chat services. You have to give 'em some time. At first, for example ... We do love Slack, but at first it didn't seem that different. There wasn't a bullet list that's like, "Oh, this has feature X", it was a bunch of little, subtle things that made it work especially well for us. KEN: Part of the meta-point there, is you have to treat your tools really seriously. Right? Google and Amazon and all these big companies, any well-funded start-up, whatever, they're gonna lavish a lot of attention on making an office that works for them. Right? TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: They're gonna create an office environment very thoughtfully. I've been to a lot of these offices. A lot of them are very thoughtfully considered. Right? They're designed to create a certain atmosphere. For example, I was at the Square offices once. Huge, cavernous room designed to create a sense of energy. That's the open-office mantra, that sense of energy. They had these little cubicle ... nicely designed cubicle things where you could go if you wanted quiet. Clearly, noise was the default. That architecture creates a culture. At least it reinforces a culture. As a remote company, your tools are your architecture. You either need to buy them from people who design them in a way that works for you, and Slack seems to work for a lot of people, or you build things that work for you, or you create norms about how they're used that do the same thing. We've done some things on Slack, we've done some things on Zoom, to create that sense of being together. Todd? TODD: I would like to add emphasis to what Ken just said. Imagine a time that someone puts into an office: architecture, the layout, the furniture. Rearranging it multiple times, placing stuff. Now think about the time that companies you've worked for put into remote tools. Anyone out there with their hands up saying they spent about 30 minutes on their remote tools -- KEN: Ever! TODD: Yeah. It's not surprising that one is superior to other in those organizations. I would pile on, like Ken said, and take the same amount of effort and consideration of your tools as a remote company as you did with everything else in the physical space if you're a commuter company. CHRIS: I'm interested, too, because as you're talking, you're talking about the difference between physical architecture and the architecture of your tools that allow you to do remote work, and if everyone's using Slack, and it looks and functions the same way, what brings the sense of uniqueness to a company that's using the same tools? TODD: Me. Just me being around makes everything unique, wonderful, and amazing. To answer the real question, you have to take Slack ... One of the great things about Slack, 'cause it's highly customizable, you can add plug-ins, you can add all sorts of integrations. We're gonna talk about other tools than Slack. They literally just pay us a crapload of money just to talk about this. JAMON: I wish. KEN: I wish. TODD: You don't take the vanilla. The point of a tool like that is you take it and you make it your own. JAMON: I did see someone tweeting about switching remote companies. They quit one company and they got hired by another. They did mention, actually, how similar it was. You go into the same place; you sit down at the same chair; you have the same computer in front of you; you log in to a different Slack, and you start working. Right? There is some level of consistency there. In a way, that's a very good thing. You can be comfortable very, very, very soon. There are plenty of things to learn about a new company without having to also learn new office layout, new office norms, policies about who can put their lunch in the fridge and who can't. I don't know what else. It's been so long since I've been in an office, I don't even know. I think there is some level of normalcy there because people do use similar tools. Like Todd said, you can customize Slack to work the way that your company needs to, and you can customize other tools as well. Since we're programmers, since our team has a lot of programming capability on it, we do actually build a lot of glue code in the scripts and things that will help tie all the tools together. KEN: In most organizations that have adopted chat tools, whether it's Slack or something else, they are usually billed as an internal supplement replacement for email. It is great at that, don't get me wrong, but I think something that gets lost in the way people talk about in the way we communicate now is that ... Let me tell a little story. I used to be a big fan of Roger Ebert. Rest in peace. Brilliant writer, right? Super enthusiastic. He was very critical of the way people write online. Very critical of things like emojis and emoticons. I think, while I respect him a lot, I think he completely missed the point on that. The point of that is, although, yes, we type to communicate online, it's not really writing. Not in the way our English teachers taught us. Right? It's typed speech, really. Right? It's a register of communication that's closer to the way that we talk than it is to the way that we would write if we're writing an essay or a blog post. One of the things that I really like about, Slack for example, is the rich way that you can communicate without it looking junky. It doesn't look like something awful or 4chan or some of the other really junky-looking message boards that have that level of expressiveness. It gives you the level of expressiveness so that you can substitute for the lack of facial expressions and body-language, but it's not writing. You don't write ... you don't type into Slack the same way you do. It's much closer to the way that you talk. For a remote organization, where we're not on Zoom all the time, although we are a lot, it's super important that you have that level of human expressiveness in your medium, in the medium that you're using to replace spoken word. TODD: Three comments. One: Zoom is the video conferencing tool we use, and we'll talk about that in a second. Two: I don't spend much time on 4chan, Ken, so I'll take your word on that one. (laughter) Three: just to give an example, talking about customization and you might be asking yourself, "Okay, Todd, I've used Slack. I've used chat. What're you talking about?" Just give you a few flavors. The simplest is creating your own channels that have some sort of cultural significance to your organization. One of ours is called "Rollcall", where we ... It's the digital equivalency of walking in and out of the office. "I'm here this morning." "I'm gonna go get my car worked on." "I'm back." It's not just status, it's also ... not just whether you're working or not, but it's a way to communicate basic, little life things in a short way. We have another one called "Kudos", where we give kudos to people. Which, at first, I thought, probably, wouldn't take off, but it actually did. It's where you give kudos to people for things that they did well, and I'm really shocked how many people give kudos and how many people respond. That's obviously just using the base tool and choosing what content to put on there, and how to organize. There's other things, too. Obviously there's things like code-repository integration, a code bug-reporting integration. We integrate with other companies' Slacks. They have a Slack channel, we have a Slack channel, and they connect so that we can do that with our clients. All the way to we have a custom Bot we wrote for Slack. Her name is Ava. She does a variety of internal processes for us. She's kind of ... In the old days, you'd have a database and you'd have a Windows app written to connect your database for your company, you'd do things in there. We have a lot of internet SaaS-tools. And then we have Ava that integrates a lot of them together. JAMON: Todd, can you give an example of something that Ava does for us? TODD: Yes. There's some basic things that a chatbot might do. For instance, you might wanna ask her where Jamon is, and she'll tell you the information she knows about Jamon. It's a lot of operational stuff. For instance, our Project Manager, Jed, has to produce weekly reports for clients. Ava produces those for him. Stuff like that. Stuff that you would normally do, like I said, in the old days, in a desktop app personally. JAMON: Todd came up with Ava quite a while ago, actually. It was sort of a toy to start with, just playing around with it. He had some ideas where it might go, but over time we've actually invested more and more resources into this internal chatbot and it's proven to be quite valuable. It's saved a lot of time, reduced the amount of overhead that we have to have tracking things because it's able to do a lot of process things. KEN: So far, she has not escaped and murdered us. (laughter) TODD: Not so far. I'm working on that. JAMON: That's a win. TODD: There's some tiny things. She's just a way for us, if we need to program something that we have a sticking point like, here's a very simple thing that took me five minutes to ruin. We do a lot of things on Mondays, and constantly wanna know what last Monday was, or Monday three weeks ago. You can literally just say, "Ava, what was Monday two weeks ago," and she'll tell you. That's a very tiny thing. Generating project PDFs or generating project reports is a bigger thing, obviously. JAMON: Another tool we use to communicate, non-verbally in Slack, is "Reactions". Someone'll post something and we react to it. I think this is pretty common in Slack teams and this is something that Slack did a good job of coming up with a cool idea. Usually you think of up-voting and down-voting, but when you have the whole range of emojis, including custom ones and animated ones and things like that, it can be a very cool thing. One interesting example of this: we have an integration with ... Ken, what's the service we use for Chain React tickets? KEN: Zapier. JAMON: Zavier. Zapier, yeah, and it connects with Eventbrite, and that basically will post any time someone buys a ticket to Chain React, which is our React Native conference, of course, happening in Portland in July. You should buy a ticket. (laughter) We get a notification, and it pops in there, says who's coming. When we're getting down there ... We were getting down to the last few advanced workshops that were available, someone started putting a number emoji underneath it. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, like that. You can see then, at a glance, how many were left. It was very cool how we were all collaborating on that. When someone would buy the advanced workshop, Kevin VanGelder, who's our resident Windows guy, he would put a little Windows emoji on there because that's part of the advanced workshop. It was just a cool way to communicate and collaborate without even using words. TODD: I think the important part of using reactions or emojis or Slack Responses ... Reactions, if you're not familiar, Slack is ... It's simply, someone posts a message, and instead of responding to it, you can post a little image on it, like heart, or a thumbs up, or a vote-up, or whatever. Slack Response is an automatic system that, when you say X, it outputs Y into it. One Slack Response that Jamon hates is that when you say "I'm not a big fan", it posts this picture of this really, really small fan. It's hilarious. I love it. (laughter) JAMON: Really hilarious. TODD: Every time someone put ... We had some that we had to remove, 'cause they just came up too much. Every time you'd say "founders" it would show the Three Stooges, which is "Accurate", but... KEN: It was "founders' meeting". TODD: Oh, whatever. KEN: But still, yeah. TODD: It was accurate but a little too much noise. The point is, it's very important. We've probably added a huge number of Slack Responses, a huge number of our own emojis, and the emojis you can use for Responses. A lot of them have become very cultural. Just to give you a few examples: my cat, Calle, that's short for Calle Berry, I took a picture of her paw. And, of course, cats, if you just do the front part of their paw, it looks like they have four fingers instead of five because their fifth one's back further. We came with this emoji and this thing where, if someone does a really great job, they get a "high-four", instead of high-five, and that's Calle's Response. JAMON: I didn't actually know that was Calle's paw. TODD: Oh, yeah, that's Calle's paw. JAMON: That's cool. TODD: So that's a cultural thing that I created one day, and it just kinda stuck. It became a "high-four"; it is an Infinite Red thing, you get a "high-four". We have other things like that, too, that are very specific to our culture, where you have to explain to people who come in what that means. I would definitely customize it, make it fun. We don't worry too much if clients see it. We're not doing anything inappropriate. At first, there was discussion, "Is it professional if they accidentally trigger one of the Slack Responses?" "No, but does that really matter?" "No," in my opinion. KEN: It depends on the Response. (laughter) TODD: Of course. KEN: There were some that were a little over the line and that, without context, could be a little startling. We removed those. TODD: Yeah, that's true. KEN: But for the most part, yeah, just something that's quirky. Hopefully, we all have clients that, at least the people who are in the Slack room are able to appreciate that. TODD: Another one that's totally part of our culture is, there was this early picture of me looking into the camera with a stern face. That became the "shame" emoji. That's been used ever since. Every time someone wants to throw shame upon someone, my face is there. I don't know if that's good or bad. JAMON: There's another one that's quite disturbing, of you, Todd. TODD: Oh! When you say yes "yis", Y, I, S, yes that is disturbing. JAMON: "Yis dream." TODD: You have to work here to ... KEN: You had to be there. KEN: Some of the things that came from my experience at Yammer, where a lot of the company was run internally on Yammer, there's a couple of really big advantages to that. Especially, at an all-remote company, where the vast majority of conversations happen there. One is that there's very much less pressure to include people in meetings just because, just in case they might have something to say about it. Because if you've having a conversation in Slack, you just pull 'em in. Right? After the fact, and they can catch up. But the other was, there was an ethos at Yammer that was, there was this pat question which was, "Why is this private?" "Why did you make this group private?" "Why is this in a private chat?" Making closed conversations justify themselves, rather than being the default. Particularly when we invite other people into Slack, I notice there's a little period of training, where people will instinctively start DMing, 'cause it's like "Well, I need to ask Ken this question." Say we brought our bookkeeper in, right? They would ask me 'cause I was the contact. I'm like, "Ask this question in Finance." Right? "Ask this question in the Finance channel." Which happens to be one of the private ones, for a variety of fairly obvious reasons. By asking in the channel, then the other people who might be interested can just observe. That's one of the ways that you compensate for the lack of that serendipitous, overheard conversation that people are so fond of in a office. CHRIS: In Episode Two, we talked about the philosophy of remote work. Todd, you actually made a comment that was really interesting to me. You said, "When the leadership uses the remote tools, they immediately get better." Why do you think that's the case? TODD: Human nature. I'll answer your question with a little story. I worked for company ... This is circa 1999. I don't know. I didn't work for 'em; they were a client of ours. For many, many years they were very much a Microsoft shop. They had no interest in testing anything on other platforms like Mac or whatever. We worked for them for nine years, something like that. So this is all through the 2000s. It was frustrating for people who wanted to produce websites that were universal. If someone opened 'em on a Mac, it would actually look good and not look horrible. One day, one of the VPs who was above the software group bought an iPad. I think, about a year later, he bought a MacBook. Once he had that iPad, all of a sudden, it'd become very important that things look good on his iPad, which is funny and horrible at the same time. It is just human nature. If you use something, it's much more front of mind than if you don't. Even the best of people suffer this. If you have a mixed company, meaning you're part remote, part commuter, one of those groups is gonna be a second-class citizen. Period. If 10 people are in a meeting, and eight are remote and two are in the office, the two in the office are gonna be the second-class citizens. More often, it's the vice versa, right? Getting everyone on the same page gets rid of second-class citizens. If you wanna make the best remote environment, either getting the majority or getting the people who have more power in the remote situation will increase your tools' quality big time. JAMON: That's for sure. We've seen that internally at Infinite Red, as well. When we use the tools, which we do, leadership team is probably the heaviest user of the remote tools in a lot of ways. There are situations where they're just not good enough, and we make sure that they get changed, for sure. Zoom is a good ... Zoom, the video chat, video call system, is really an interesting one because it has worked the best for us in terms of video calls. We've used a whole bunch of them. We've used everything from Google Hangouts, Skype, Appear.in, which is pretty decent. Pretty frictionless, actually. I like Appear.in for how fast it is to jump into it, but the quality is still a little bit sub-optimal. A few others as well. The nice thing about Zoom is that it allows you to put everybody into a grid pattern. It has a gallery view, which is really cool because then you feel like you're having a meeting and not doing a presentation. That's something that came out of us doing sales calls and internal meetings where we kinda felt like, "I don't wanna be the person on the big screen," right? Feel like your giving a presentation. "I wanna feel like this is a meeting with everybody in an equal place." It makes people feel more comfortable. That was a situation where we were using the tools for various things and found the one that, I think, has worked the best 'cause, as a leadership team, we needed it. TODD: Yes, as far as video chat or video calls ... We actually need a name for that. What do you say if ... It's not really video chatting. JAMON: Video conferencing? TODD: I don't like ... KEN: It's not exactly "conferencing". TODD: I don't like the term. JAMON: Video meeting? KEN: Video meeting. TODD: Yeah, there needs to be a term for that. We need to coin a term for that, at least internally. CHRIS: Zooming. TODD: Zooming. Well that's ... That's not tool-specific. KEN: Slack as a tool is much stickier, in the long term, probably, than Zoom is. At the moment, Zoom is, by far, in our experience, the best quality. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: But that could change. Slack ... there's a lot we've invested in customizing and it would be harder, but ... Although, we have invested some in Zoom, which we can talk about a bit. TODD: I would say Zoom is our favorite for our situation. One of our clients is BlueJeans.net, which is not really a competitor, but they do video conferencing. BlueJeans is really great for many things. One thing is they do every platform well. KEN: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yep. TODD: Which, Zoom, and a lot of the other ones don't necessarily do. Now, we're all mostly on Macs, and it works really well on that, so that works out well. Also, BlueJeans.net has a lot of additional features. Where we basically just need video conferencing; Zoom is so superior. Google Hangouts is horrible. Please, please stop using Google Hangouts. KEN: Don't use Skype. Don't use Google Hangouts. TODD: Well, Skype -- KEN: Skype has gotten better, but -- TODD: Skype's quality is great, but it does a max of six people. We have 26 people. KEN: I disagree that they're quality is great. TODD: I was being ni -- KEN: Even domestically, I've had problems with it. (laughter) JAMON: We have Microsoft people listening. TODD: I was being nice, Ken. JAMON: It crashes a lot on Mac. KEN: The point is, here, you should demand rock-solid video 99% of the time. TODD: Yeah. KEN: If that's not what you're getting, look at another tool. JAMON: This extends to the internet bandwidth that you have available at your place of work, too. Some people that were really scraping by on 20Mb or something connections, and it was impacting video quality, and -- TODD: On what tool? KEN: No, their connection. JAMON: Their internet connection, yeah. That was something that we, overtime, got everybody to upgrade to faster and faster internet. I think that was a success for, pretty much, everybody. They have pretty acceptable internet, now, at this point. TODD: Some aren't as much. We have a person who's a nomad and travels around. We have someone who's in extremely rural Canada, up above Toronto, Tor-on-toe, I'm told is the proper way to say that. Zoom does very well in bandwidth, so the people that do have limited bandwidth, that works very well. We actually have meetings, 26 people in Zoom, which before would have been crazy. Skype limits you to six, which I'm not sure how useful that is for most meetings, but good for you, Skype. KEN: The only thing it's not so great on is battery-life, if you're using a mobile device. JAMON: It sort of trades CPU time for bandwidth. KEN: It does, yeah. JAMON: One of the things that Zoom doesn't do, that we've sort of built a system on top of, is permanent conference rooms. We've found this to be very useful to say, "Hey, let's jump into this 'conference room A', or 'conference room B'." We have better names for it. We name them after rooms in the boardgame Clue. TODD: Trademark Milton Bradley. (laughter) JAMON: There's a billiard room, there's a conservatory, there's a study, kitchen, et cetera. We have different uses for those different rooms. Some are for sales calls; some are for ... One is called Kitchen, which we use for the kitchen table, it's basically where people just jump in there, and work together in relative quiet. It's a cool little concept. We actually built an online, like a website, as well as a desktop app that shows a Clue board with the different rooms that light up when people are in them, and then it puts avatars of who's in that room, including guests, which is very cool because I can go in there and say, "Hey, look! Chris and Todd are having a meeting over there. I'm gonna jump in and see what's going on." I can just click in there, and it opens a Zoom window, and I'm in their meeting. TODD: For example, currently, Chris, Jamon, Ken and I are in Study. We have Kevin and Ryan in Library, and we have Jed in the Billiard Room by himself. I'm not sure what that's about. Maybe playing a little pool. KEN: This goes back to the notion of tools as architecture. Consider the experience of being in an office, and you want a meeting. You say, "Hey, let's meet in Fisherman's Wharf." I was in an office where they named things after San Francisco neighborhoods. "Let's meet in Fisherman's Wharf." Everybody, after they've been oriented into the office, knows where that is and they just go. That's it, right? That's the experience, right? Furthermore, if you wanna know where somebody is, you walk around the building, look into the rooms, and see that so-and-so is in Fisherman's Wharf, so they're in a meeting, they're busy. Now let's look at what it's like to be remote, without a tool like this. "Where's the meeting? Okay, I gotta ask somebody. Oh, okay. Oh, did someone start the meeting? Oh, no, no, okay, somebody needs to start the meeting. Alright, gimme a second, I'm gonna start the meeting. Here's the Zoom URL." TODD: Oh, God! KEN: "Okay, you gotta invite somebody." "Do you remember the Zoom URL?" "I don't remember the Zoom URL." "Okay, hang on. Okay, I got it. Here you go." That's the UX, right now. JAMON: Yes. KEN: Of the base ... TODD: Oh, jeez. KEN: ... video conferencing tool, and it's no wonder people hate that! JAMON: Yep. KEN: Right? TODD: Can you imagine? KEN: Yeah. It turns out ... We've had to increase the number of rooms over the years, right? But how many do we have now? Eight? TODD: Eight. KEN: So we have eight rooms now? TODD: Eight current rooms. KEN: That's pretty much fine. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative). For a team our size, that works well. JAMON: We usually don't fill all of ... I think, yesterday, I looked in there and there were six in use, which was kind of a anomaly, but ... KEN: In an office, we can keep adding those as long as we need to. JAMON: That's right. KEN: This is a case where I think we've created something that is actually better than what people who have an office have. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: Right? Because you can, just at a glance, see where people are. Nobody has to even tell you what room they're in. They just say, "Hey, we're meeting." You go look at the Clue board, and you see where the people that you're meeting with are, and you join the room. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: It's just one more little piece of constant friction that we've eliminated. I love it. I think it's a fantastic tool. TODD: Yeah, I keep the Clue desktop app open all day long while I'm at work. It's also cool to see the little avatars and stuff. Makes me feel like I'm at work. When we first started, you did have to push ... This is a very common interaction. "Hey, Todd, I need your help with X." And I'm like, "Let's have a meeting" or "Let's jump in Zoom" or whatever. "Which one?" "I'm already there. I joined a room as soon as you said it." "Which one?" "Open Clue. (laughter) Look for my name. Click on it." JAMON: Yeah. TODD: That only took a few weeks, to be honest, of constantly just needling that to the point where, when someone says, "Hey, I wanna jump in a room," they look and they see where you jumped in. KEN: That brings back the importance of having the leadership on the tool. TODD: Yes. JAMON: That's right. This tool actually came out of a side-project. I think Gant and AJ, two of our engineers, came up with the idea and built a prototype, and put it out there. It was ... I remember being, initially, a little bit skeptical that it'd be useful and it's turned out to be a really key part of our remote experience. TODD: That's actually an important point. No one asked anyone to make that tool. No one asked for permission to make that tool. They made it. They turned it on. Now, we've had tools that people've made. For instance, my tool Ava, which, now, is very useful, originally was Dolores, which is from HBO's great TV show, "Westworld". Dolores never caught on. She didn't do enough important stuff, and so she just kinda died. Later I resurrected her as Ava, which is from the movie "Ex Machina". Excellent movie, by the way. KEN: It's still kind of a disturbing allusion, though. TODD: It is, but it's ... It's a great movie. And then the next movie he did, which was "Annihilation", was fantastic as well. Anyways, not important, obviously. The point is, no one needs to ask for permission. They can make tools. They do. They put 'em out there, and they live or die based on whether or not they're actually used. We do sunset things that just never really took off. CHRIS: You're mentioning a lot of tools that enable remote work, that enable productive work. What are some tools that you're thinking about or are in place that help with focus and eliminating distractions? 'Cause sometimes, people new to these environments can look at these tools going, "Man there's so many distractions. How do I work?" JAMON: I actually think that's one of the biggest benefits of working remotely, which is kind of counter-intuitive. You think, "Oh, there's so many distractions when you're working remotely." Actually, you can turn off Slack. You can turn your screen to "do not disturb". You can shut off Zoom. You can turn off you're email. You can close all of those applications and just have the app that you're doing the work in, you're writing a blog post, you're writing code, you can just have that open. You can turn on a "do not disturb" mode in Slack that'll actually tell people that you're currently away. If you use the tools that are available, remote work can actually be much better, because what happens in an office? Someone can't get a hold of you on email or Slack, so what do they do? They hop up and they walk over to your office, and they're like, "Hey, did you get my email?" (laughter) "Okay, I will check my email, eventually, here. Is this really important?" One of the things that we do is ... This is kind of funny, but we'll actually say "I'm going offline for three hours, 'cause I'm gonna focus on this thing. If it's really important, text me." Our phone numbers are there, right? Nobody's gonna text you, 'cause that just feels like a complete intrusion. Right? KEN: It does happen. Like, if it's a genuine emergency. JAMON: It does happen if it's like an emergency. But that is so rare. That is awesome, because you're adding a ton of friction, but you're still giving them some way to get to you. I think that's a good property of remote work, that you can actually focus more in those situations than you can in an office. TODD: Yeah, try to turn off all the noise in an open-concept office. Good luck! KEN: Yeah, an office is distracting by default. You have to use technology to get some focus. I can't think of any tool that we use just for focus. Right? It's about human habits around how they use the tools that are already there. TODD: I think there are some, Ken. I don't personally use them. KEN: Yeah, yeah. I mean there are things, but there's nothing we use as a company. TODD: No, but there are people here that use, for one thing, they'll use the various timer apps that tell them to stand up, or if they set a timer for focus -- KEN: I've used the Pomodoro timer. TODD: Yeah, there are things. What's cool about remote work as opposed to depressing cubicle work (laughter), is you can set up the environment -- KEN: Soul-crushing commute work. (laughter) TODD: Soul-crushing commute work, SCCW, I like it. In those situations, you have to go to the lowest common denominator. If 50% of the people are very productive and get focused with music, and 50 can't at all, you're gonna have no music. When you're sitting in your own environment, whatever that environment is, whether it's your home, or a café, or co-working space, or whatever it is that you've chosen to be most efficient in, when you're sitting in that environment, you can control and make it perfect for you to be able to focus. Personally, if I'm doing design work or visual work, I play music. It gets me in the groove. If I'm programming, I cannot have any music. Or if I do have music, it can't have any lyrics in it. That's a focus thing. I tend to like to work more in the dark, strangely. I love light and I live in a very sunny place, and a very sunny house, but I have noticed that I tend to get more in the zone in dark and often late at night, for me personally. CHRIS: I'm the same way, Todd. I have to fake my brain into thinking it's late at night by closing all the blinds and turning the lights off. And it actually helps productivity. TODD: Yeah, that's interesting. I used to have this problem at every company I worked at. Even, say, I shared a room with four other people. One office, and four. I would wanna have all the lights off and have a desk lamp so I could see. No one liked this. Having the fluorescent lights on ... I didn't take cyanide, but I do believe I shopped online for cyanide, just saying. (laughter) KEN: So this is in your browser history, now, forever, man. (laughter) There's a FBI file on you. TODD: Oh, there's been a FBI file. Come on. If you don't have a FBI file on you, what are you doing with your life? (laughter) JAMON: At the old ClearSight office, we had some fluorescent lights, and one by one they would burn out. Nobody would tell the maintenance guy because they just liked that they were burning out. (laughter) Eventually it got quite dark in there and everybody, they just wouldn't even turn on the light. TODD: I would like to make a confession. I have purposely broke some lights in offices. KEN: "True Confessions with Todd Werth." (laughter) TODD: You don't want true ones. No, that actually -- CHRIS: That's Season Two of the podcast. (laughter) TODD: That actually is very true. Sometimes you just have to ... KEN: Civil disobedience? TODD: Yes, I like the way you phrased that. Makes things more noble and less selfish. (laughter) KEN: Yeah, right. Guerilla productivity. JAMON: We have some other tools to talk about, too, right? TODD: Oh, yeah, we have other tools to talk about. JAMON: Should we talk about some of them, or ... TODD: Yes. KEN: But enough about Todd. (laughter) TODD: I'll be here all week. Do not eat the veal. JAMON: One of the tools that has been really helpful for us is Google Sheets. Obviously, that's the spreadsheet program in Google Apps. We ... We're having trouble ... Again, this is pre-merger. We're having trouble figuring out how to schedule people. It was just a real pain. Eventually, my Project Manager at the time, came up with a system that involved sticky notes on a board that were, across the top were weeks, and down the left side were the names of people. We could just put sticky notes. My wife went out and bought a whole bunch of different colored sticky notes. We'd put the same project as the same color across the board. You could, at a glance, see who was working on the same project. You could see how long it was going to be, as far as number of weeks, and every week we'd move 'em over to the left and add another column. That eventually migrated onto Google Sheets, 'cause, of course, that doesn't work so well when you're remote. The collaboration tools on Google Sheets are extremely good. It's very, very responsive to having multiple people on it. When we do our Friday scheduling meeting for the next week, and beyond, we'll all pull open the sheet, and we look at it, and we can all update it ... If we see something that's wrong, we can update it. We can change colors of the backgrounds. It's worked really well for, now, two and a half years. I think that's a remote tool that has actually been quite useful for us for quite some time. Not only does it give us forward-looking data, but it also gives us backward-looking. We can look at previous years and see what projects were we working on at the time, who was working on what, all the way throughout. It's been a very cool tool. We're just repurposing Google Sheets to use as a scheduling tool. TODD: Another tool we used to use ... Jeez, I can't remember what it's called. What was the [inaudible 00:43:17] tool we used to use? JAMON: Screenhero. KEN: Screenhero? TODD: Screenhero, yes, of course. I remember when Screenhero was ... It was eventually bought by Slack and is being integrated into Slack. We used to use that a lot, but truthfully, the tools in Zoom for screensharing stuff became superior and so I think almost everyone pairs with each other Zooming. TODD: Another tool we use is RealtimeBoard, which is a sticky board analogist tool; the designers -- KEN: Designers love it. TODD: The designers used it a lot, but we also use it in leadership and the developers, I think, are starting to look into it. It's great for brainstorming. It's a real-time tool, kinda like Google Docs or Google Sheets, where everyone can use it at the same time, and you see everyone using it. That's been really great. The designers use the heck out of InVision, which is a wonderful tool for showing designs, getting notes, and collaborating with clients, collaborating with the rest of the team, and that kind of stuff. Another tool we use for project management a lot is Trello. If you're not familiar, with it, it's a great project management tool. It's a Kanban board, if you're familiar with those. Not only do we use Trello, we also integrated ... Ava connects to Trello, produces reports from ... Ava connects to Airtable, which is another interesting mix between a database and a spreadsheet. We use Airtable and Trello. Those are some other tools we use. KEN: Something to mention, also, is that between Slack and Zoom we have some redundancy, because Zoom has rudimentary chat and Slack has video conferencing. It's not as good as Zoom's, but it's there, and we already have it. For example, when Slack is down, we have Zoom channels that we can all do basic communication in. That provides a certain amount of resiliency for the work environment, and that's very helpful. TODD: Yeah, it does go down every so often. It's funny because our company comes to a screeching halt when Slack goes down. KEN: Yeah, and that's a valid criticism, I think, of remote working. We do have the redundancy so that people can at least, basically, keep going. TODD: We all know now, if Slack's down ... It was, actually yesterday, coincidentally. JAMON: Yeah. TODD: If Slack is down, we go into Zoom chat. That took a while to get people ... It's funny 'cause we don't use email and stuff, and we use that so much. We could jump into a meeting. We've done that in the past, before we had this redundancy we would just jump into a meeting room and kinda like, "Hey, what do we do?" It was like the lights went out and everyone was confused at what to do. It's actually kind of amusing if you think about that. A bunch of virtual people wandering around in the dark wondering what to do. JAMON: We have a lot of redundancy of internet connection. Someone might be having internet issues, but not everybody is having internet issues. That's a pretty big deal. I remember the office internet would stop working and, even though we were all in the same place, yes we could collaborate, no we couldn't work 'cause we couldn't access -- KEN: Couldn't get to GitHub, can't get to... JAMON: ... Dropbox, whatever. Which, we do use GitHub, we use Dropbox. There's a little tool that I use that, I would say, about a third of the company also uses. We're on video calls a lot. When you're on a video call, sometimes it's nice to have a cough button: you hit a button and it mutes you for just a second, so you can cough or whatever. This one's called Shush. It's a Mac app. You can buy it for three bucks or something. It turns your function key into a mute button, so you just hit that button and it will mute you for a short amount of time. Or you can double-tap it and it turns into a push to talk button, which is nice when you're in a big group. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I don't use Shush, because I use a hardware version of that. I have quite a lot of audio equipment and video stuff. Pretty sure, in the remote podcast, we talked about the importance of having good equipment and spending a little money on good equipment. You cheap managers out there, stop doing that; you're horrible people. (laughter) JAMON: Also the background of your video call is really important. That was actually something Todd really emphasized when we first started. I will point out that he has the messiest background of all of us, right now. TODD: Well, to be clear, I have two cameras. One is a wide angle which I use for the team so I can move around and stuff; and I have a tighter angle I use for clients, in which case, what's behind me is very specifically chosen to be a background, and I keep that incredibly clean. JAMON: I just say that to tweak Todd, because he's the biggest champion of having a good background. TODD: Yes. Jamon's horizon, right now, is extremely tilted, and it's been driving me crazy the whole time, but I'll get over it. (laughter) KEN: I know. I can't unsee that. TODD: In my 46 years on this planet, I've learned not to mention that, even though I really, really want him to straighten his camera. KEN: It doesn't help, Jamon, you've still got a vertical line that is -- TODD: I'll tell you a funny story about backgrounds. Poor Ken. Ken had this very nice ... I don't know what it was. What was it, Ken? KEN: It's a bookcase, right, (laughter) but it's IKEA furniture, so it looks -- TODD: It's IKEA? KEN: It looks like a dresser. Yeah. TODD: This whole time it was IKEA? We thought it was important. We felt bad for making fun of it. 'Cause it looks like a dresser. It was right behind him, and it looked like Ken was sitting in bed (laughter) with his dresser behind him. KEN: Yes, reinforcing every stereotype about remote workers. (laughter) TODD: Right. We kept on bugging him, and he said, "It's a really nice bookcase." I didn't realize it was IKEA. KEN: I didn't say it was a really nice bookcase. I said it was a bookcase. (laughter) TODD: It looked like a dresser. JAMON: It really did, in fact. KEN: That's because it's IKEA furniture, so it's looks like that. TODD: I guess the point is, how things appear is more important than what they actually are. This is something a lot of people aren't familiar with. We have different people with different levels of quality of what they produce as far as visually or audio. I think the general takeaway is take some time. You are almost doing a mini-television broadcast, and you wanna be ... I wouldn't say the word "professional", because it's not stuffy, it's fine if you're wearing your tie-dye and your shorts, but you should make it a pleasant experience for the viewers. KEN: Yeah. You should look inviting, and it should look intentional. TODD: Mm-hmm (affirmative). KEN: And kept. JAMON: We have some other tips for remote video meetings that, I think, are on a blog post that we created. Was that you, Ken, that wrote that post? KEN: Yeah. We could do a whole podcast, frankly, on how to have a good video meeting. JAMON: We can link to that in the show notes. KEN: We can link to that for now. TODD: That is a podcast I wanna do. I do wanna point out to the audience who can't see us now, we're recording this for your listening pleasure, and I put pleasure in quotation marks 'cause I don't wanna oversell it. But, we are actually on Zoom, so we can see each other. Jamon, thankfully moved his camera so we can't see the horizon any more, which is crooked, but right over his left shoulder is a door-line that's incredibly crooked. I appreciate the effort, Jamon, but come on. Have some dignity. JAMON: I will point out that I'm moving out of this rental in a week because I had a house fire, Todd. (laughter) TODD: Oh, jeez. You can't pull a house fire out every time there's a criticism. KEN: The only thing in my background is my Harvard diploma (laughter) because it's all that anyone cares about. JAMON: Yes, exactly. Over my shoulder, I'm thinking about putting my not-Harvard diploma. KEN: "Narvard". JAMON: It'll just say, "Not Harvard." TODD: Sometimes we just invite Ken's Harvard diploma, instead of Ken, to meetings. (laughter) KEN: Yeah, I just put it in frame and then I walk out. (laughter) I'm like, "I'm just the janitor." CHRIS: I do have one final question, as we bring this episode to a close: Is there any tool that you use outside of remote work or in your daily life that you wish existed as a remote tool. KEN: Blow torch. (laughter) CHRIS: Elon's got that for ya. TODD: Not a tool, completely, but here's something ... I have ideas for tools that'd be cool in the future. We have the concept of "kitchen table". This is a real quick story; please, bear with me. The three of us ... I don't know if Ken was, but there was multiple of us of the company who were speaking at a conference in Paris. We rented a large Airbnb apartment in Paris, and a bunch of us were staying there. It had a very large kitchen table. When we weren't doing stuff individually, we'd all sit around the kitchen table, and we'd work together. We would just sit there, like you would at a library in a university or something like that, and work. We wanted to recreate that in ... virtually. The simple solution is we dedicated one of our Zoom rooms, the "Kitchen", to the "kitchen table" and you can't use that for anything else. If you just wanna be around people, but you're working, you're not really saying anything, as if you're in a library ... I guess we should do the library, but whatever ... you'd go in the kitchen table and just be around people. Sometimes people say things and have little conversations, like you would in an office, but typically you're just sitting there working together. That's cool. It's missing a few features which I'd love to see. For one is, if you're not ... Say there was a group of people working in an open office, and they're in the center and you're on the perimeter of the office. You see them working together there, the "kitchen table", now we have that, with our tool, we can see who's in the "kitchen table" and they're there. Great. But you can also, even if you're far away and they're dim enough ... not dim, but the volume's low enough that it's not disturbing, you can still hear them, and sometimes you'll pick up on little words that may interest you. They'll mention a project you're on, or they'll mention a personal interest that you're interested in or whatever, and you can choose then to go walk over and join them, because of that kind of low-noise but informational thing you're getting by being in the perimeter. I would love to somehow integrate that into our tool, where you could have a low-murmur of people in the background of the meetings that you're not in, and listen for things that might be interesting, something like that. KEN: I don't really know how to think about that question. TODD: I find it very interesting that none of us can really come up with a tool that we wish we had. That's a fantastic answer. KEN: I mean ... JAMON: I think there's probably tools that, eventually, we'll get that will be like, "How did we live without this?" But I don't ... I can't think of one. KEN: I can imagine in the future, basically a VR setup. JAMON: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes. KEN: If VR gets to the point where it feels natural; it's comfortable to wear the equipment, it's not a burden just to have the stuff on your head, and the resolution is to the point where you could have a virtual monitor in space, and you can have that feeling of actually being next to people. Then you could, in theory, have the best of both worlds, where you can drop out and leave the space if you want to. You can also be in the space and be available for that. JAMON: Yeah. KEN: I think that would be pretty nice, but ... JAMON: There is a tool out there that's ... I think they're, maybe, in beta right now. It's called Bigscreen VR, it's by a guy that I know, Darshan Shankar, who's on Twitter. I met him on Twitter. He's doing this Bigscreen VR system. It's very much what you described, Ken. Right now, it's only on Windows, and of course the VR headsets are still evolving. But apparently the new Oculus Go or Oculus Now, or something, is apparently quite good -- KEN: Yeah, they're getting better. JAMON: It's also likely, they said that within the next year, that it'll come to Mac 'cause they're working on it. KEN: I think another threshold, though, is the quote-unquote "retina" threshold, to where the resolution of the headsets is such that you can't, in terms of resolution, anyway, you can't tell the difference between that and something that you're looking at. JAMON: Yep. KEN: You could actually make a projected display without any compromise. JAMON: Yes. TODD: I agree, in the future that's gonna be wonderful. I do have some current ideas on how to add spacial stuff to our tools to give us proximity information of each other, virtually. Kind of what you would get if you were in a VR situation, but without having VR. Anyways, there's some interesting things there. KEN: Yeah, we've talked about making an ambient audio device, something like that, that can just sit there and ... Kind of like "kitchen table", but without the video. There's a bunch of things we've talked about, but not of them are things that exist today. They're just things that we've thought about creating or ... yeah.

Ben and Derrick are together again, at MicroConf and working on their new products and businesses. From making T-shirts to thinking about finding funds, things are continuing to move forward. Derrick is focusing on Level, an open source team communication and management tool. Ben is considering the name, Tuple, for his pair programming tool alternative for Screenhero. He is focusing on all things business-related, from equity to entity options. Today’s Topics Include: What’s equity? Ben determines how to break up partnership percentages for his company Each partner will have their moment in the sun, and contribute more or less at various times Forming an entity; should Ben’s business be an LLC, corporation, private company...? Domain scheme options when it comes to handles and extensions Ben’s next milestone is to do a small alpha, and charge people to use it Embedding iframes, custom domain options, and promotions How cagey to be about technology being used; the secret sauce and general public licenses Learning how to pitch a product and what resonates with people Tools can be improved, and education on how to use them needs to be provided Is Slack the problem, or the people who use it? On premise vs. Cloud options; the pros and cons If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Angel Funds (https://angel.co/angel-funds) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) WebRTC (https://webrtc.org/) Andrew Culver (https://github.com/andrewculver)

Derrick discovered his marketing and promotional tasks were eating up too much of his time and mind, so he took a break from them. He shifted his focus to the actual development of his product, Level. He made some forward strides on the product’s design. Ben decided to give notice and leave his current job for an opportunity to develop a Screenhero alternative. Screenhero is a pair programming tool that has a rough history with Slack. So, he has a co-founder, new technology findings from Stanford, and encouragement from original developers. Could anything be more aligned?! Ben’s alternative and Derrick’s Level is a match made in heaven. Today’s Topics Include: How Derrick is refactoring and optimizing data model items Is having one identity the right way to go or do people want to establish different identities within different communities? Ben encourages Derrick to not automatically do the opposite of Slack Derrick is trying to envision what people may request and be able to customize Shifting from the anonymous to identified Web Why Derrick decided to rewrite some database migration history Derrick is developing Level’s registration and sign-up process Derrick is on a development roller coaster every day; getting back on the yoga train Development teams will become increasingly distributed, so the customer base for Ben’s alternative will only expand How Ben feels about the technology risk factor with his alternative tool Ben will be learning C++ to write the codebase and maintain it If you’re enjoying the show please give us your ratings and reviews in iTunes. Links and resources: Ben Orenstein Website (http://www.benorenstein.com/) Ben Orenstein on Twitter (https://twitter.com/r00k) Derrick Reimer Website (http://www.derrickreimer.com/) Derrick Reimer on Twitter (https://twitter.com/derrickreimer) Tailwind CSS (https://tailwindcss.com/) The Bootstrap Blog (https://blog.getbootstrap.com/) Drip (https://www.drip.com/) GitHub (https://github.com/) Steve Schoger (https://www.steveschoger.com/) Screenhero (https://screenhero.com/) MicroConf (https://www.microconf.com/) Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/) Ruby on Rails (http://rubyonrails.org/)

On today's episode we discuss ScreenHero being shut down and what that means for remote pairing and screen sharing. We also discuss what tools we at Zeal have been testing and what we look for in screen sharing tools. "I think ScreenHero allowed us to not look at anything else, it's fun to look out and see what other options we could use” - Chris White, Senior Software Developer at Zeal Tools Mentioned Use-Together VisualStudio: Live-Share AWS Cloud9

Henning is out hosting Possums. Raquel and Kahlil wonder about US politics. Kahlil thinks Web Components are exciting. Screenhero is now in Slack. ES Modules in Chrome work!

Det är nu ett och ett halvt år sedan vi lyssnade på Lennart Fridén när han berättade om sina erfarenheter av mobprogrammering. Sedan dess har han bland annat introducerat konceptet på TV4. I detta avsnitt får vi massor av handfasta tips, och bland annat får vi reda på hur det går till att mobprogrammera fast teamet sitter på flera platser. Linnéa jobbar nämligen hälften av tiden från Storbritannien. Inzoomningen tillägnar vi karriärssteg och karriärvägar.Mikrofonen Linnéa tipsar om är YetiScreen hero finns på screenhero.comMobtimern som vi pratar om heter MobsterEn annan variant av mobtimer är MobburNågra hållpunkter:[2:51 Inzoomningen][14:15 Huvudämnet]20:06 Vi pratar storlek. Spelar det roll?32:10 Spara filer? Vad är det för nymodighet?43:20 Ät er egen hundmat53:00 Ta kontroll över din vardag1:07:50 Några sista tips

As we prepare for MicroConf, Ben takes a new tact on his talk after giving an early demo, and Derrick recounts a positive pair-programming experience. Upcase FormKeep Screenhero Thank you to our sponsor this week, FreshBooks

In this great episode, we discuss the concepts and uses of pair programming, remote programming, and mob programming. Don't worry if you're unfamiliar with any of those terms; we'll talk about them in more depth in the episode, and explore what is (and isn't) cool about each one. Just to give you a short preview to help you decide whether to tune into this episode (hint: you should!), let's take a moment to define what we're talking about, at least for our main focus of the episode. Pair programming is when you have two programmers working on the same task, usually at the same workstation. This offers an incredible array of benefits compared to typical, solo work. For example, if you're in a pair programming setup, there's no way you're going to be checking your email, phone, and social media while you're working. That means you'll be more focused; in fact, one of our panelists points out that pairing can lead to being tired (in a good way) because you've been so productive. Pair programming also offers great motivation to be your best, because you don't want to let your team down by not giving 100%. Tune in to hear more about pair programming and its benefits and potential pitfalls, and to learn about remote programming and mob programming too!   In This Episode: [00:52] - We hear a basic definition of pair programming. [02:02] - What were the panelists' first experiences with pair programming? [03:39] - Pair programming can be incredibly valuable in that it doesn't allow you to get distracted or lose focus the way you might if you were working by yourself. [05:50] - We learn about the use of chess timers in pair programming. We then hear how pair programming can be valuable when you're learning a new language. [08:12] - Have the panelists seen Livecoding.tv? [10:35] - The panelists move on to talking about remote programming, initially emphasizing the importance of a strong, fast internet connection. [12:32] - If you're pairing with someone remotely, the person who is sharing is (almost) always the bottleneck. [13:26] - What kind of editors do the panelists usually use on their projects? They mention, for example, Screenhero, AtomPair and Floobits. [16:47] - The problem with all of these editor plugins is that they don't tackle the shared browser bit. [18:46] - One of the panelists brings up an issue that happened to him in pair programming but not remote programming. [20:02] - The panelists discuss Dvorak in more detail, explaining what it is and why it's a good choice for people with wrist injuries, for example. [20:55] - We hear the story of how one of the panelists inadvertently introduced a coworker to pair programming. They then talk about various modes of pair programming, particularly “evil mode.” [27:20] - We move on to mob programming, with the panelists sharing their experiences with it. The consensus is that it's fun because it's so collaborative. [30:45] - Mob programming can often be with some subset of the team instead of the entire team. Even if it's with only three people, though, it can be helpful in breaking ties. [34:01] - Have any of the panelists had any particularly good pairing experiences? [39:00] - We switch to the other side of pair programming now: challenges and bad experiences working in a pair (including a story of overwhelming body odor). [43:05] - Another resource that people should check out is the RailsConf 2014 video “I've Pair Programmed for 27,000 Hours. Ask Me Anything!”   Links and Resources: Stride Consulting Rabbit Hole on Twitter Livecoding.tv Screenhero Real Programmers on XKCD AtomPair Floobits “I've Pair Programmed for 27,000 Hours. Ask Me Anything!”

125: An accomplished military officer, entrepreneur, and self-taught developer, David is the Founder & Executive Director of Operation Code, a coding 501(c)(3) nonprofit that helps active military, guard & reserve citizen soldiers, veterans and their families learn to code and build software to change the world. After a decade of service in uniform, David founded Operation Code when he couldnt use his New GI Bill to go to code school to become a software developer and build his dream web app. The fastest way for military, veterans and their families to get coding. Veteran-founded and led, our military veterans community of coders and volunteer software developers can help you get unstuck, learn a new programming language and contributing to open source software in no time. Find out more about David Molina and Operation Code on Davids personal Blog: http://davidmolina.github.io/ http://davidmolina.github.io/about/ http://davidmolina.github.io/resume/   Save Time Like our days in the military, time on target is key. Hack and pair program with a software mentor at no-cost. You've already served and it's our way of saying thank you. code Hands-on Coding We use Slack, a real-time communication app to post questions and answers, and share snippets of code. When that doesn't work, we can jump on a Screenhero and pair program even faster sharing screens. group Expert Insights Our software mentors work the full spectrum from tech startups to defense federal contractors with one thing in common: ensuring our military veterans learn the new 21st century literacy skill. language Nurturing Space Our active community of military and veterans open source software & hardware enthusiasts help you gain real-world app experience, share job opportunities, conference scholarships, and opportunities to build on your military experience. When you're planning to leave the military visit USAA's separations tools and advice for information on readiness and making a successful transition. http://www.veteranonthemove.com/leavingthemilitary The Veteran On the Move podcast has published over 100 episodes giving listeners the opportunity to hear in-depth interviews conducted by host Joe Crane featuring the people, programs and resources to assist veterans in their transition to entrepreneurship:  Marine Corps, Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard veterans, DOD, entrepreneurship, business, success, military spouse, transition, education, programs and resources.  Veteran On the Move has garnered over 500,000 listens verified through Stitcher Radio, Sound Cloud, Itunes and RSS Feed Syndication making it one of the most popular Military Entrepreneur Shows on the Internet Today.

Check out Rails Remote Conf! Submit a CFP! 01:53 - Daniel Kehoe Introduction Twitter GitHub Blog 02:07 - Digital Nomad Lifestyle Daniel Kehoe: Why I Left My Heart in San Francisco Nomad List Remote Year 08:45 - RailsApps & Rails Tutorials @rails_apps [GitHub] RailsApps RailsClips #007: Rails Composer Daniel's Kickstarter Project: Rails Composer with Rails Tutorials -- Runs until October 6th, 2015! Michael Hartl's he Ruby on Rails Tutorial Book and Screencast Series Learn Enough Command Line To Be Dangerous 22:42 - rails-composer for Beginner Programmers    Flatiron School, @aviflombaum Learn Ruby on Rails by Daniel Kehoe Remember to go check out Daniel's Kickstarter Project: Rails Composer with Rails Tutorials! Picks remote | ok (Saron) Rails Remote Conf (Chuck) weworkremotely.com (Chuck) Slack (Chuck) Screenhero (Chuck) Pinegrow Web Editor (Daniel) Nomad List (Daniel) Low Yat Plaza (Daniel)

Check out Rails Remote Conf! Submit a CFP! 01:53 - Daniel Kehoe Introduction Twitter GitHub Blog 02:07 - Digital Nomad Lifestyle Daniel Kehoe: Why I Left My Heart in San Francisco Nomad List Remote Year 08:45 - RailsApps & Rails Tutorials @rails_apps [GitHub] RailsApps RailsClips #007: Rails Composer Daniel's Kickstarter Project: Rails Composer with Rails Tutorials -- Runs until October 6th, 2015! Michael Hartl's he Ruby on Rails Tutorial Book and Screencast Series Learn Enough Command Line To Be Dangerous 22:42 - rails-composer for Beginner Programmers    Flatiron School, @aviflombaum Learn Ruby on Rails by Daniel Kehoe Remember to go check out Daniel's Kickstarter Project: Rails Composer with Rails Tutorials! Picks remote | ok (Saron) Rails Remote Conf (Chuck) weworkremotely.com (Chuck) Slack (Chuck) Screenhero (Chuck) Pinegrow Web Editor (Daniel) Nomad List (Daniel) Low Yat Plaza (Daniel)

Check out Rails Remote Conf! Submit a CFP! 01:53 - Daniel Kehoe Introduction Twitter GitHub Blog 02:07 - Digital Nomad Lifestyle Daniel Kehoe: Why I Left My Heart in San Francisco Nomad List Remote Year 08:45 - RailsApps & Rails Tutorials @rails_apps [GitHub] RailsApps RailsClips #007: Rails Composer Daniel's Kickstarter Project: Rails Composer with Rails Tutorials -- Runs until October 6th, 2015! Michael Hartl's he Ruby on Rails Tutorial Book and Screencast Series Learn Enough Command Line To Be Dangerous 22:42 - rails-composer for Beginner Programmers    Flatiron School, @aviflombaum Learn Ruby on Rails by Daniel Kehoe Remember to go check out Daniel's Kickstarter Project: Rails Composer with Rails Tutorials! Picks remote | ok (Saron) Rails Remote Conf (Chuck) weworkremotely.com (Chuck) Slack (Chuck) Screenhero (Chuck) Pinegrow Web Editor (Daniel) Nomad List (Daniel) Low Yat Plaza (Daniel)

Screenhero changes our remote team for the better and other news

Our team is complete again for this episode! Raquel, Kahlil and Henning discuss Google's announcement about Alphabet and speculate about what it all means. Raquel shares her enthusiasm about the screen sharing app Screenhero and how it compares to other services and apps in the space. Henning reports on his progress with implementing JSON-API and last but not least Kahlil talks about Redux and client-side state management.

In this episode we talk to Thom Parkin about his new video course on mastering Git, and other things interesting for those who want to improve their Git skills. If you cannot see the audio controls, your browser does not support the audio element. Use the link below to download the mp3 manually. Link to mp3 Listen to the episode on YouTubeLinksThom on Github, Twitter, SitepointGit Fundamentals book Learnable: Introduction to Nitrous.ionitrous.io (for hosted development sandbox)ScreenHero (for remote pairing)Beegit (authoring platform)Mastering Git* on Packt PublishingGet Thom's "Mastering Git" Video Tutorial for 50% off, on the Packt Publishing website if you use the Discount Code GITMASTER2015.  This offer will only last a limited time.Repository for resources, addendum, etc.The Gititudes Kohsuke Kawaguchi’s thoughts on what should be in your commit message* Note that there is a different video course published in 2011 with the same title: McCullough and Berglund on Mastering Git.How to find lost stashesDuring a discussion of git-lost-found (now deprecated in favor of git fsck --lost-found), we asked how to find dropped stashes. git fsck --lost-found will indeed show these as well, although you have to inspect them yourself to identify which came from stash.Episode outline00:00:00 Intro 00:02:25 Bio/welcome 00:02:56 Tell us about your background 00:04:14 What is your experience with VCS? 00:05:47 You have a video course out about Git. Tell us about it! 00:06:28 What is SitePoint? 00:12:32 A video course on/by Packt? 00:13:09 Tell us more about the structure of your video course. 00:15:39 You had your son do the graphical artistry? 00:16:16 Always interesting to see how Git is visualized 00:18:11 Let's talk about nitrous.io 00:30:09 Tangent: Installing GIt on different OSes 00:32:10 Any other things from your video course you would like to discuss? 00:33:20 How do I find lost commits? 00:35:45 Don't stashes appear in the reflog? 00:40:11 What are the other "Gititudes"? 00:45:37 Crafting history, commit messages, squashing vs merging? 01:00:29 How much Git teaching is still left to do in the world? 01:04:13 Where can people find you online? 01:04:58 What is your favorite Git pro tip? 01:05:43 Thank you for coming onto the show! 01:05:50 Outro 01:06:36 Bonus: Head in the closet?

02:25 - Neal Ford Introduction Twitter GitHub Blog ThoughtWorks iPhreaks Show Episode #084: Building Your Technology Radar with Neal Ford Freelancers' Show Episode 145: Life as a Traveling Consultant with Neal Ford RailsConf 2010: Neal Ford "Creativity & Constraint"    02:20 - The Thoughtworks Technology Radar Rebecca Parsons 06:28 - Quadrants Techniques Tools Languages & Frameworks Platforms 07:01 - Categories (Rings) Hold Assess Trial Adopt 09:23 - Adopting New Technologies William Gibson: “The future is already here, it’s just not evenly distributed.” Cycle Time Neal Ford: Build Your Own Technology Radar [YouTube] Neal Ford: Build Your Own Technology Radar 14:42 - Providing Familiarity Resources 15:24 - Radars as Resources and Lifecycle Assessment Tools Intentional Software Radar A-Z 18:36 - Themes 22:17 - Making Decisions Diversify Testability 27:40 - Jamming Radars 31:53 - Hireability? Paying Developers to Learn 36:54 - Financial Portfolios and Planning Your Career Specialization vs Generalization 42:03 - Software Architecture & Engineering Practices Microservices 43:57 - Functional Programming Functional Thinking: Paradigm Over Syntax by Neal Ford Clojure 44:16 - Estimation 46:03 - Creating Your Own Radar Brett Dargan: bdargan/techradar Blip Placement Neal Ford: Build Your Own Technology Radar Picks All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace (Avdi) The Project Euler Sprint (Coraline) Gloom (Coraline) The Bad Plus: Inevitable Western (Jessica) tmate (Jessica) Screenhero (Chuck) Slack (Chuck) DevOps Bookmarks (Neal) Elvis has left the ivory tower by Neal Ford (Neal) Culture Series (Neal)

02:25 - Neal Ford Introduction Twitter GitHub Blog ThoughtWorks iPhreaks Show Episode #084: Building Your Technology Radar with Neal Ford Freelancers' Show Episode 145: Life as a Traveling Consultant with Neal Ford RailsConf 2010: Neal Ford "Creativity & Constraint"    02:20 - The Thoughtworks Technology Radar Rebecca Parsons 06:28 - Quadrants Techniques Tools Languages & Frameworks Platforms 07:01 - Categories (Rings) Hold Assess Trial Adopt 09:23 - Adopting New Technologies William Gibson: “The future is already here, it’s just not evenly distributed.” Cycle Time Neal Ford: Build Your Own Technology Radar [YouTube] Neal Ford: Build Your Own Technology Radar 14:42 - Providing Familiarity Resources 15:24 - Radars as Resources and Lifecycle Assessment Tools Intentional Software Radar A-Z 18:36 - Themes 22:17 - Making Decisions Diversify Testability 27:40 - Jamming Radars 31:53 - Hireability? Paying Developers to Learn 36:54 - Financial Portfolios and Planning Your Career Specialization vs Generalization 42:03 - Software Architecture & Engineering Practices Microservices 43:57 - Functional Programming Functional Thinking: Paradigm Over Syntax by Neal Ford Clojure 44:16 - Estimation 46:03 - Creating Your Own Radar Brett Dargan: bdargan/techradar Blip Placement Neal Ford: Build Your Own Technology Radar Picks All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace (Avdi) The Project Euler Sprint (Coraline) Gloom (Coraline) The Bad Plus: Inevitable Western (Jessica) tmate (Jessica) Screenhero (Chuck) Slack (Chuck) DevOps Bookmarks (Neal) Elvis has left the ivory tower by Neal Ford (Neal) Culture Series (Neal)

02:25 - Neal Ford Introduction Twitter GitHub Blog ThoughtWorks iPhreaks Show Episode #084: Building Your Technology Radar with Neal Ford Freelancers' Show Episode 145: Life as a Traveling Consultant with Neal Ford RailsConf 2010: Neal Ford "Creativity & Constraint"    02:20 - The Thoughtworks Technology Radar Rebecca Parsons 06:28 - Quadrants Techniques Tools Languages & Frameworks Platforms 07:01 - Categories (Rings) Hold Assess Trial Adopt 09:23 - Adopting New Technologies William Gibson: “The future is already here, it’s just not evenly distributed.” Cycle Time Neal Ford: Build Your Own Technology Radar [YouTube] Neal Ford: Build Your Own Technology Radar 14:42 - Providing Familiarity Resources 15:24 - Radars as Resources and Lifecycle Assessment Tools Intentional Software Radar A-Z 18:36 - Themes 22:17 - Making Decisions Diversify Testability 27:40 - Jamming Radars 31:53 - Hireability? Paying Developers to Learn 36:54 - Financial Portfolios and Planning Your Career Specialization vs Generalization 42:03 - Software Architecture & Engineering Practices Microservices 43:57 - Functional Programming Functional Thinking: Paradigm Over Syntax by Neal Ford Clojure 44:16 - Estimation 46:03 - Creating Your Own Radar Brett Dargan: bdargan/techradar Blip Placement Neal Ford: Build Your Own Technology Radar Picks All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace (Avdi) The Project Euler Sprint (Coraline) Gloom (Coraline) The Bad Plus: Inevitable Western (Jessica) tmate (Jessica) Screenhero (Chuck) Slack (Chuck) DevOps Bookmarks (Neal) Elvis has left the ivory tower by Neal Ford (Neal) Culture Series (Neal)

In this episode, we discuss Slack acquiring Screenhero, the end of the Google Glass explorer program, Amazon announcing a new email service for companies, follow-up on Benioff’s “creepy” interview, Skuid release naming, things to consider when using Sass, and the 15 Apex Commandments for developers. Slack Buys Screenhero To Add Screen Sharing And Voice Chat To Its Work Messaging PlatformGoogle Glass Never Really Had A Fighting ChanceAmazon Starts Email Service for CompaniesAdvice from Marc Benioff: Don’t Be CreepyTechnology Leaders Define Digital Fault LinesSuperbank Release: WebinarA Vision for Our SassApex Best Practices: The 15 Apex Commandments 

This week, Poornima Vijayashanker (Founder of Femgineer/BizeeBee & EIR at 500 Startups) and Julia Grace (Head of Engineering at Tindie) join Product Hunt’s Erik Torenberg and Ryan Hoover at 500 Startups HQ. We chat about tools communicate with remote teams, our love of email, and products to help fight digital distractions. Listen in. - Yo (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/yo) - A simple app to say "yo" to friends - Tindie (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/tindie) - Shop directly from indie innovators - Slack (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/slack) - Be less busy. Real-time messaging, archiving & search. - Screenhero (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/screenhero) - Collaborative Screen Sharing + Voice Chat - Pivotal Tracker (http://www.pivotaltracker.com/) - Build better software faster - Trello (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/trello-66) - Organize anything, together - Asana (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/asana) - Teamwork without email - Product Hunt for iOS (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/product-hunt-for-ios) - The best new products, every day, in your pocket - Edgar (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/edgar) - Stop letting your social media updates go to waste - Self Control (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/self-control-mac) - Avoid distracting websites - Boomerang (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/boomerang-for-gmail) - The ultimate toolbox to control sending/receiving emails - Mobile Flow (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/mobile-flow) - Eliminate digital distractions - “Hooked” Book (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/hooked-book) - How to Build Habit-Forming Products - Tiny Habits (http://tinyhabits.com/) - BJ Fogg’s program to help build healthful habits - Streak (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/streak) - CRM in your inbox - for Gmail - imoji (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/imoji) - Turn selfies or any photo into stickers you can text - emoji.sexy (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/emoji-sexy) - The emoji URL shortener - Transform Your Ideas (http://www.producthunt.com/posts/transform-your-ideas) - 20 week e-mail course on building & launching software In case you missed it, check out batch 9 of 500 Startups (http://www.producthunt.com/e/500-startups-batch-9) and this lovely collection of Emoji Apps (http://www.producthunt.com/e/emoji-apps) on Product Hunt.

iPad on a Segway REMOTE 3:14 Sqwiggle 20:05 Science 24:00 tmate 25:50 ScreenHero 26:30

In this episode, J Sherwani and Vishal Kapur talk about Screenhero: a new and convenient collaborative screen sharing application.  Show Notes: J Sherwani (twitter linkedin) Vishal Kapur (twitter github linkedin)...