Who are these millions of podcast listeners? This week I go through some of the information we know about podcast listeners. How much they listen, their education level and income, their buying behaviors, and much much more. Resources mentioned: Podcast Roadmap - https://dannyozment.com/roadmap *** Are you interested in starting or growing a podcast AND business with the support of my team and a community of experienced podcasters? Join my Podcaster Pod. You get... Full access to my 8-module podcasting course taking you from idea to launch and everything in between. Equipment and tech, Recording and publishing. Scripts and templates. Everything! Access to me, my team, and a group of experienced podcasters through a private Slack channel Monthly Q&A calls with me and the other Podcaster Pod members. Quarterly Expert Calls Access to me and my network –– meaning I will introduce you to other influencers and people who can help you where it makes sense. Consider joining my new membership site for $47/month. Go to https://dannyozment.com/pod Use code JOINPODPOD to get a 1-month free trial. *** Do you have a website for your business or personal brand or are you building one? If so, then you need WPX hosting. I use WPX for all of my sites and so do many of our clients. For $25/month, WPX's Business Plan gives you Hosting for 5 Websites 10 GB Storage 100 GB Bandwidth Free SSL certificates The WPX Cloud Content Delivery Network They average around 30 second support response time 24/7/365 around the world Provide free unlimited site migration from any host to WPX, usually completed within 24 hours And they are fast because they never overload servers with hosting accounts, unlike so-called 'cheap' hosting which crumbles under any traffic load Sign up for the WPX Business Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/wpx *** Are you building an email list for your business or personal brand? If so, then you need ConvertKit. I use ConvertKit for my list and so do most of our clients. For $29/month, ConvertKit's Creator Plan manages up to 1,000 subscribers Provides unlimited landing pages & forms Sends email broadcasts Provides the ability to Sell digital products & subscriptions Has super fast Email support AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... Gives you Free migration from another tool AND Automated funnels & sequences Get a free 14-day trial of the Creator Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/convertkit *** My Recommended Resources - https://dannyozment.com/resources
So, you're thinking about pivoting your business... but you feel like you aren't supposed to, or like it will mess everything up. I'm here to tell you that isn't true! Here are some ways to pivot your business successfully. Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicapodcast
Why do you tell your friends and family about podcasts you think they should listen to? It's because of the trust and relationship you have with the host of the podcast. In this episode, I go into detail about why this form of content marketing is so powerful. Resources mentioned: Podcast Roadmap - https://dannyozment.com/roadmap *** Are you interested in starting or growing a podcast AND business with the support of my team and a community of experienced podcasters? Join my Podcaster Pod. You get... Full access to my 8-module podcasting course taking you from idea to launch and everything in between. Equipment and tech, Recording and publishing. Scripts and templates. Everything! Access to me, my team, and a group of experienced podcasters through a private Slack channel Monthly Q&A calls with me and the other Podcaster Pod members. Quarterly Expert Calls Access to me and my network –– meaning I will introduce you to other influencers and people who can help you where it makes sense. Consider joining my new membership site for $47/month. Go to https://dannyozment.com/pod Use code JOINPODPOD to get a 1-month free trial. *** Do you have a website for your business or personal brand or are you building one? If so, then you need WPX hosting. I use WPX for all of my sites and so do many of our clients. For $25/month, WPX's Business Plan gives you Hosting for 5 Websites 10 GB Storage 100 GB Bandwidth Free SSL certificates The WPX Cloud Content Delivery Network They average around 30 second support response time 24/7/365 around the world Provide free unlimited site migration from any host to WPX, usually completed within 24 hours And they are fast because they never overload servers with hosting accounts, unlike so-called 'cheap' hosting which crumbles under any traffic load Sign up for the WPX Business Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/wpx *** Are you building an email list for your business or personal brand? If so, then you need ConvertKit. I use ConvertKit for my list and so do most of our clients. For $29/month, ConvertKit's Creator Plan manages up to 1,000 subscribers Provides unlimited landing pages & forms Sends email broadcasts Provides the ability to Sell digital products & subscriptions Has super fast Email support AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... Gives you Free migration from another tool AND Automated funnels & sequences Get a free 14-day trial of the Creator Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/convertkit *** My Recommended Resources - https://dannyozment.com/resources
If you've ever gotten to the end of the day and realized you have NO idea what you did (even though you definitely did something), then this episode is for you. We're talking about how to manage your time better and be way more productive! Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicapodcast
You can watch a video or read a blog post about how to make money online and think, well, that looks easy.But you're almost never getting the whole picture.What you see in those videos and blog posts is a snapshot, usually of all the things that went right, not everything that went wrong before it started to get better.You won't see all of the potential hazards and challenges that come with those business models because you're not being given the full breadth of the real-world experience of running that business and what it took to make it a success.So today, I'm talking to online business's self-labeled Crash Test Dummy, Pat Flynn.Pat has tested out so many different ways to make money online, and he's going to let me pick his brain and do a deep dive about what worked, what flopped, and how profitable they really were.Pat Flynn is a father, husband, and entrepreneur who lives and works in San Diego, CA. He owns several successful online businesses and is a professional blogger, keynote speaker, Wall Street Journal bestselling author, and host of the Smart Passive Income and AskPat podcasts, which have earned a combined total of over 65 million downloads, multiple awards, and features in publications such as The New York Times and Forbes. He is also an advisor to ConvertKit, LeadPages, Teachable, and other companies in the digital marketing arena.Listen to the full episode to hear:Why asking what model you should start with is the wrong question, and the questions you should be asking insteadHow his audience informed Pat's initial venture into online businessWhy you should think of affiliate marketing and sponsorships as providing a service to your audienceHow books and speaking can support your brand and create incomeThe business models that have the highest ROI and profit margins for PatLearn more about Pat:Smart Passive IncomeSmart Passive Income PodcastAsk Pat PodcastInstagram: @PatFlynnTwitter: @PatFlynnWill It Fly? How to test your next business idea so you don't waste your time and moneyLearn more about Gillian:Startup SocietyGet on the waitlist for VALIDATEProfit Planning ChallengeGet in touch!
How do most podcasters improve their show, grow their audience, and learn how to monetize? It's no secret, they ask other podcasters. Recently I created a membership site called the Podcaster Pod where podcasters are congregating and learning from me and from each other. In this episode, I talk about the "Pod Pod" and share our September 2021 Q&A session so you can hear what it's like to be a member. We chat about YouTube, advertising, replacing episodes, and much much more in our 45-minute call. You'll also hear me talk about Facebook Podcasts which is now available to everyone. You can get the info on how to sign up at https://www.facebook.com/gms_hub/share/industry_qsguide_podcastsonfacebook.pdf?content_id=X5kXlJovUjn0QGf *** Are you interested in starting or growing a podcast AND business with the support of my team and a community of experienced podcasters? Join my Podcaster Pod. You get... Full access to my 8-module podcasting course taking you from idea to launch and everything in between. Equipment and tech, Recording and publishing. Scripts and templates. Everything! Access to me, my team, and a group of experienced podcasters through a private Slack channel Monthly Q&A calls with me and the other Podcaster Pod members. Quarterly Expert Calls Access to me and my network –– meaning I will introduce you to other influencers and people who can help you where it makes sense. Consider joining my new membership site for $27/month. Go to https://dannyozment.com/pod Use code JOINPODPOD to get a 1-month free trial. *** Do you have a website for your business or personal brand or are you building one? If so, then you need WPX hosting. I use WPX for all of my sites and so do many of our clients. For $25/month, WPX's Business Plan gives you Hosting for 5 Websites 10 GB Storage 100 GB Bandwidth Free SSL certificates The WPX Cloud Content Delivery Network They average around 30 second support response time 24/7/365 around the world Provide free unlimited site migration from any host to WPX, usually completed within 24 hours And they are fast because they never overload servers with hosting accounts, unlike so-called 'cheap' hosting which crumbles under any traffic load Sign up for the WPX Business Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/wpx *** Are you building an email list for your business or personal brand? If so, then you need ConvertKit. I use ConvertKit for my list and so do most of our clients. For $29/month, ConvertKit's Creator Plan manages up to 1,000 subscribers Provides unlimited landing pages & forms Sends email broadcasts Provides the ability to Sell digital products & subscriptions Has super fast Email support AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... Gives you Free migration from another tool AND Automated funnels & sequences Get a free 14-day trial of the Creator Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/convertkit *** My Recommended Resources - https://dannyozment.com/resources
Do you know much about NFTs? Or does the blockchain space make you think of Elon Musk and an exclusive tech community that feels far out of reach? Regardless of your personal affinity, NFTs will only become more relevant to our modern economy. And they'll only become more relevant for creators looking to build community and earn a living. But the types of people you meet in the NFT space and the organizations that grow out of these platforms may surprise you. More than just a Twitter trend or an elusive tech fraternity, NFTs can expand your creative horizons beyond what's been possible over the last few decades. In this episode, Charli and NFT enthusiast Waldo Broodrÿk discuss doing NFTs right as a creator and the surprising opportunities that lay ahead for creators who succeed. “The beauty of NFTs is that we're building communities. As we build communities we're building connections with other people that have different affinities, different skills, different connections that they can then say, ‘oh what if we did this?' The space to dream that big hasn't really been around.” ~ @waldobroodrykMain takeaways [11:47] When it comes to NFTs, invest in companies, people, and movements that you believe in and always do your research. [12:36] NFTs aren't just a project you produce once and forget about. It's more valuable when you're iterating because a community of people will want to stick around and watch your platform evolve. [23:00] While the energy it takes to produce NFT systems isn't great for the environment, the space is evolving to be more eco-friendly. [26:28] NFTs have led to a resurgence in the value of art. Artists are finally getting paid for their work rather than just living off of ‘exposure.' [28:30] To be successful as a creator in the NFT space, build your community and get to know others in the space. See what others are creating, create utility around your NFT, and build an experience. Connect with our hosts Charli Prangley Miguel Pou Haley Janicek Links Watch The Future Belongs to Creators on YouTube Waldo Broodrÿk Waldo on Twitter Blush Robotos Ethereum Solana Open Sea Foundation Dribl Visa Woodies NFT Lucas Bean Twitter Discord Metamusk Trust Wallet Elon Musk Polygon Coinbase eToro The Infinite Machine: How an Army of Crypto-hackers Is Building the Next Internet with Ethereum Jellysquad Scallywags Myspace Slack Kickstarter Got a story to tell on The Future Belongs to Creators podcast?We'd love to have you on the show to talk about successes or failures you've experienced on your creator journey. Submit your story here!Start building your audience for freeWith ConvertKit landing pages, you can build a beautiful page for your project in just a few minutes. Choose colors, add photos, build a custom opt-in form, and add your copy. All without writing any code! Check out landingpages.new to get started.Stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Twitter Facebook Instagram
Hiring help sounds terrifying... but it totally doesn't have to be! I'm running you through how to know what to hire out, the differences in employees and contractors, and all the things! Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicapodcast
Matthew Kepnes runs the popular travel blog, Nomadic Matt, and also writes a successful newsletter. In fact, Matt's newsletter is one of the biggest I've had on the show. His book, How to Travel the World on $50, is a New York Times Best Seller.After a 2005 trip to Thailand, Matt decided to leave his job, finish his MBA, and travel the world. Since then, he's been to nearly 100 countries, and hasn't looked back. Besides being a New York Times best-selling author, Matt's writings have been featured in countless publications. He's a regular speaker at travel trade shows, and is the founder of FLYTE, a non-profit organization that sends students overseas to bring their classroom experience to life.I talk with Matt about his unique approach to running his business. While others are building online courses, Matt has shifted to doing more in-person meetups and events. We talk about his newsletter, and we also talk about growing your Instagram follower count, scaling a business as a solopreneur, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: When & why you need to start outsourcing day-to-day tasks Matt's email opt-in strategies and tips to get more subscribers The most important metric about your email list How to quickly get more followers on Instagram Links & Resources Blue Ocean Strategy Matador Lonely Planet Blue Ocean Strategy book Pat Flynn Women In Travel Summit Traverse Cheryl Strayed ConvertKit TravelCon FinCon Podcast Movement World Domination Summit Hootsuite Tim Ferriss Seth Godin OptinMonster Seth Godin: This is Marketing Rick Steves Nathan Barry Show on Spotify Nathan Barry Show on Apple Podcasts Matthew Kepnes' Links Matt's website Follow Matt on Twitter Matt's Instagram The Nomadic Network Nomadic Matt Plus Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Matthew:When I started these courses back in 2013, there wasn't a lot of folks. Now you have so many people with courses, so many Instagrammers and TikTokers selling their stuff. It's sort of like, is this worth the time to really invest in it when my heart really isn't in it? How can I maintain 400K in revenue a year? Is that the best use of our resources? The answer is, not really.[00:00:33] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to my long time friend, Matt Kepnes, from Nomadic Matt.Matt's got a travel blog that's wildly popular, and he gets into that—shares all the numbers. He's probably one of the biggest newsletters that I've had on the show, so far.What I love about him, in particular, is how thoughtful he is about his business model.Most people are just adding more courses and figuring out how to grow revenue; honestly, what's now fairly traditional ways, and it's quite effective. Matt takes another approach. He gets into in-person events and meetups. We get to talk about why in a busy, crowded online world, he's actually going offline.I think that Blue Ocean Strategy he references, the popular book by the same title, I think it's interesting, and it's something worth considering when some of the online strategies don't work. We also get into a bunch of other things like growing his newsletter. Like I said, it's quite large.Then, also growing an Instagram following. Instagram is not something that I'm going to actively pursue, but it's interesting hearing his approach of what you do if you're at 5,000 followers on Instagram, and want to grow to 50,000 or more.So, anyway, enjoy the episode.If you could do me a favor and go subscribe on Spotify or iTunes, or wherever you listen if you aren't subscribed already, and then write a review.I check out all the reviews. Really appreciate it. It helps in the rankings, and I'm just looking to grow the show.So, anyway, thanks for tuning in today. Let's go talk to Matt.Matt, welcome to the show.[00:02:06] Matthew:Thanks for having me, Nathan. I've been trying to get on this podcast for ages.[00:02:10] Nathan:Well, don't say that, that'll make people think they can get on just by asking. Really, you came to my house and stayed in my cottage on the farm, and then you're like, “Yo, have me on the podcast!” And that's when I was like, “Absolutely.” But if anyone just asked, that would not be a thing.[00:02:26] Matthew:No, I just mean I finally—I'm excited that I'm worthy enough in my blogging career to be on.[00:02:33] Nathan:Oh, yes.[00:02:35] Matthew:I've made it.[00:02:36] Nathan:Yeah. It's only taken you, what, a decade and a half?[00:02:39] Matthew:13 and a half years. Slow and steady wins the race.[00:02:43] Nathan:That's right.I actually want to start talking about that side of it, because I've been in the blogging world for 11 years now. But even I feel like things changed so much in the first couple of years, even before I entered into the world. So, I'm curious, going back to the early days, what were the prompts for you to come into the blogging world and say, “Hey, I'm going to start publishing online”?[00:03:10] Matthew:Yeah. You know, it was a very haphazard, there was no grand plan. Like I had Zanger when people had Zeno's, which is, you know, a personal blog, way back, you know, 2003, whatever. And so what, I went on my trip around the world in 2006, I just kept updating this Zynga. You know, it was called, Matt goes the world and it was just like, here I am friends here I am.And then, you know, everyone was really excited in the beginning. And then after a while I got sick in my update because the know their back of their office job. So I kinda just forgot about it until I came home and January, 2008 and I need money. And so I started a temp job, and I had a lot of free time and I really just hated being back in the, the office with the walls and everything.And so I was like, I need to earn money to keep traveling. And so I started the website really as with the goal of it being an online resume, you know, it was very bare bones. I used to share a travel news, have an update, like tips and stories from my trip. And then there was a section where we're like, hire me and it had my features and, you know, the guest blogs I did, I used to write for Matador travel.So just as a way to sort of build up, a portfolio of like, Hey, Yeah, freelance writing because I'm wanting to read guidebooks, you know, I wanted to write for lonely planet. That was a dream, right. The guidebooks. And so just the blog was a way to hone my skills and just get in front of editors to be like, Hey look, I do right.You know, here's where I've been, you know, and, and sort of build that base. And eventually that became a thing where I didn't need to freelance. Right.[00:05:03] Nathan:Was it called nomadic Matt from the beginning.[00:05:06] Matthew:He was, yeah. I B two names, nomadic Matt. And that does the world. Right. Because I like the double entendre of it. Right. Even though, but just cause I have a weird sense of humor and all my friends were like, you can't do that one. You gotta do nomadic Matt. It was really good because it's much better brand name, you know, in the long run.But again, I wasn't thinking about that. Right. I wasn't thinking like, oh, I'm going to start this brand. You know, I gotta think of a clever name that people can remember. It was like,Oh a place where people can see my work.[00:05:39] Nathan:Right. Okay. So now 13 and a half years later, what's the, what's the, the blog and newsletter look like. and I want to dive into the business side of it because I think a lot of people build successful newsletters, audience-based businesses, but don't make the leap to like something bigger than themselves.And so I want to dive into all those aspects of it.[00:06:01] Matthew:13 years later, it's seven people. We just hired a new events coordinator to help. my director of events, Erica, coordinate all these virtual in person events that we're going to kick off again. I have a full-time tech guy, a full-time director of content. We changed his title, but like three research assistants, because.I picked a niche that like is always changing. Right. You know, you have a fitness website, how to do a pull up. It's just, that's it,[00:06:37] Nathan:You ranked for that keyword. You're good to go.[00:06:40] Matthew:Yeah. Like how to do a pull up, doesn't change what to do in Paris or the best hospitals in Paris, constantly changing, you know? so it takes three resources, distance.Plus my content guy, me that basically keep up the content and then I have a part-time, graphic designer and part-time social coordinator.[00:07:00] Nathan:Nice. And how many subscribers do you have in the list now?[00:07:03] Matthew:We just called it, so it's a two 50 because we just, cause I haven't shaved it off in like five years or so. So we basically everybody that hasn't opened the email in one year where we're like, you want to be on.And like 2% of them click that button. And then we just got rid of the other 90%. It was like 60,000 names.[00:07:30] Nathan:Yeah. So for everyone listening, two 50 in this case means 250,000.[00:07:35] Matthew:Yeah.[00:07:36] Nathan:Just to clarify, I 7% businesses off of 250 subscribers would be remarkable. That would be just as impressive, but that's not what we're talking about here. going into, so a lot of people, talk about or worry about, should I prune my list or that kind of thing?What were the things that went into that for you? That's a big decision to, to prune 60,000 people off a list.[00:08:00] Matthew:I think it was probably more, maybe I want to say six 60 to 80 I somewhere around there. we were pushing up against our account before I went to the next billing step.So that's always a good impetus to prune the list, but you know, I I've been thinking about it for a while because. You know, I I really want to see what my true open rate.Is You know, like, okay, I have all these people and we were sending it this, I have multiple lists, but the main weekly list was like, 310,000-315,000 but it's been so long since we called and we have so many emails there and I just really wanted to get a true sense of like, what's our active audience.And so between, between that and, pushing up against the next tier price tier. Yeah. it yeah. It's cool to say like, oh, we have 300,000 300, you know, rather than 250,000 Right. But who cares? Right. I mean, at the end of the day, it's just a vanity metric, right? Yeah. It sounds cool. I get a million emails. Right. But if you only have a 10% open rate, You really only have 100,000.[00:09:20] Nathan:Right. I think that the times that it matters is maybe when you're selling a book to a publisher and that might be the only time that you like that dead weight and your email us actually helps you.[00:09:33] Matthew:Yeah. Like if you're, or you have a course, you know, are you trying to promote your numbers, but people would probably lie about that stuff too. yeah, so like, it really doesn't matter because all that matters is like, what's your true audience? Like who Who are the people that are really opening your stuff?[00:09:50] Nathan:Yeah. So let's dive into the, well, I guess really quick, I should say I am a hundred percent in the camp of, like delete subscribers, like do that once a year, that kind of thing. Clean up the list, go for the highest number of engaged subscribers, rather than the highest number of subscribers. It's just[00:10:06] Matthew:Right.[00:10:07] Nathan:To track.[00:10:08] Matthew:And, and I think you would know better than me, but isn't this a good. Like signal to Gmail. And you know, when you, you don't have a lot of dead emails, just go into a blank account. It's never getting opened or marked as spam or whatever.[00:10:24] Nathan:Yeah, for sure. Cause a lot of these times, there's a couple of things that happen. One is emails get converted to spam traps. And so it's like say someone's signed up for your email list six years ago And, they haven't logged into that email account for a long time.Google and others will take it and convert it to a spam trap and say, Hey, this email hasn't been logged into in six years.And so anyone sending to it, it's probably not doing legit things now you're over here. Like, no that person signed up for my list, but they're basically like you should have cleaned them off your list years ago. And then if that person were to ever come back and log into that Gmail account, do you remember like, oh, just kidding here, have the, have the email account back, but they're basically using that.And so you can follow all the. Best practices as far as how people join your list. But if you're not cleaning it, then you will still end up getting these like spam hits and, and other things. So you absolutely clean your list. Let's talk the business side, on revenue, I don't know what you want to share on the, on revenue numbers, but I'd love to hear any numbers you're willing to share.And then the breakdown of where that comes from, whether it's membership, courses, conferences, that sort of thing.[00:11:35] Matthew:Yeah.So there's like the pre COVID world and the post COVID world. Right. You know, like,[00:11:40] Nathan:Yes.[00:11:41] Matthew:Cause I work in travel, so like, you know, pre COVID we did over a million and like I was probably gearing up to like in 2020, like one, five, I think I were going to get a little over one five. and again, you know, this is, I work in the budget travel side of things, right.So like it's going to sell a lot of $10 eBooks to get up to seven figures. salary books are 10 bucks. and so. Postcode during COVID week, I think in 2020 made like half a million. and this year we'll probably get up to three quarters,[00:12:23] Nathan:Okay.[00:12:24] Matthew:K.[00:12:25] Nathan:He was coming back,[00:12:26] Matthew:Yeah. Yeah. and I think next year we'll, we'll get back over seven and then basically like how to go from there.You know, so maybe 20, 23, I might get to that one, five that was going to get to in 2020. most of the revenue now comes from ads, and then affiliates. we did, we did do a lot on courses, but then I, one of the things that, you know, a big pandemic that stops your business, allows you to do is really look at the things you're doing because every.Zero. So it's like when we start back up, is this worth investing time in? And so the answer is no. So we dropped down from, I think, peak of doing like $400,000 a year and horses, and this year we'll do maybe 40. and that's mostly because we just leave it up as like, you can buy this, we update it every six months.If it needs, it's basically like a high that blog course get all my numbers and tactics and strategies in there. but we don't offer any support for it. Right. It's just, you're buying information. and so it's very passive in that sense, but it's not like a core business where we're really moving and we were doing this pre COVID is moving into events and membership programs.So like we have pneumatic map plus, which gets you like all our guides, monthly calls and sort of like a Patriot on kind of thing, but like free.[00:14:03] Nathan:That cost.[00:14:04] Matthew:Five to 75 bucks a month, depending on what you want. So it's 5 25, 75. Most people opt for the five, of course. And it's really geared to like, get the five.But you know, that brings now, I think like three or four K a month. and then we have the events, which is donation based, but there's just like another two K a month. And so this is like, since COVID right. So like, that's say call it 50 K a year of, of revenue that we've added in. They didn't exist before.And now I know you're, you can compare that against the loss of the courses, but we had been phasing those out for years. and so that's really where we want to grow is bringing in more, you know, monthly revenue for that. Right. You know, Once we started, it's easy and we're gonna start doing tours again and, you know, so more high value things that don't take as much time.[00:15:08] Nathan:Right. So on the core side, I think a lot of people listening, maybe they have an email list of five, 10, 15,000 subscribers, and they're like, Hey, the next thing is to launch a course. And they're hearing that's where a bunch of the revenue is. And so it's interesting you moving away from that. So let's dive in more.What, what made you look at the core side of your business and say, I don't want to like restart that in a post COVID world.[00:15:33] Matthew:Yeah, there's just, there's a lot of competition, right? So like, I think it was like a blue ocean, red ocean strategy, you know, to think of that book of, you know, Blue Ocean Strategy. Right? One of the reasons we went into events is because a lot of our traffic comes from Google. And so it's a constant battle of always trying to be one or, you know, in the first couple of spots.Right with every blogger in every company with SEO budget, but there's not a lot of people doing in-person events or building sort of a community in the travel space. So I looked at that of being like, okay, there are a lot of people doing courses and they love doing courses and they're great teachers, you know, they're, you know, you get folks who know like path when, you know, low, like everyone, all these teachable folks, you know, they, they love that stuff.That's not where my heart really was. And so thinking of like, this is a red ocean now, because you have, when I started this, these courses back in 2013, there wasn't a lot of folks. Right. But now you have so many people with courses, so many Instagrammers and tic talkers selling their stuff. It's sort of like, is this worth the time.To like really invest in it when my heart really isn't right. Like how can I maintain your 400 K in revenue a year?[00:17:02] Nathan:Right.[00:17:03] Matthew:What's it going to take, you know, is that the best use of our resources? And the answer is not really, you know, let other people do that. Who love it. I mean, you want to buy my information.It's it's solid stuff. Right. Everyone loves the advice, but to really create like a cohort, like your class, which is sort of like the new version of courses, you know, like, whether it's a month or three months, it's sort of like, you go with this like cohort, right. My heart really wasn't into it because we can invest more in doing events and conferences and really in-person stuff.Especially now that everyone's really excited to do stuff in person again, with a lot less competition. It's easy. It's easy to start a course, but there's a lot of capital investment in doing events that we have the resource to do that, you know, somebody with a 10,000 email list might not.[00:18:03] Nathan:I think I see a lot of people going into courses in, particularly as you alluded to cohort based courses where they're doing it, like, Hey, this is a whole class that you're doing, you know, you're doing the fall semester for the month of October or whatever it is, I'm doing it, doing it the first time and really enjoying it because it's a new challenge they're showing up for their audience.It's just, it's super fun on that, doing it for the second time and going, huh? Okay. That was way easier and way less. And then the third time they go, I don't think I want to do this anymore. Like if the money is good and I just don't enjoy showing up at a set time for a zoom call or whatever else. So it's interesting of watching people jump on a bandwagon and some people it works for really well, and that is their strength and they love it.And then other people that I'm going to like, look, the money's good. And this is this just, isn't what I want to spend my time on.[00:19:02] Matthew:Yeah. You know, I've been doing it for, you know, seven, eight years now and I just sort of lost the passion for, you know, I think it's, I like when people take the information, they succeed with it. But I think after a while you start to realize, you know, it's sort of a 90 10 rule, right? You, 90% of your students, aren't really going to do anything with it.And it's not your fault. It's just because they become unmotivated or, you know, so we tried to switch to the cohort based to be like, okay, this is the class weekly, weekly calls.You know, come on, come together and you still get this drop off rate. That's, you know, sort, it gets this hard and you're like, all right, I've been doing this for eight years, you know, like moving on.But I mean, if you have the love for like pat loves it, you know, like you've got a whole team about it, he's got all these cohorts stuff that speaks to him where I think I'd rather do stuff in person that[00:20:01] Nathan:Right.Well, let's talk about the in-person side. Cause you did something that most people think is really cool and almost no one realizes how hard it is. I think I know how hard it is because I've attempted the same thing and that starting at a conference where everyone's like, you have this big online following, like what you just need to, you know, you have hundreds of thousands of people you just need, I don't know, 500 or a thousand of them to show up in a suit, that's gotta be easy.Right. And so they go and sort of conference, it's wildly difficult. And so.[00:20:33] Matthew:Difficult.[00:20:34] Nathan:I'd love to hear what made you want to start the conference and then yeah, how's it. How's it gone so far?[00:20:40] Matthew:Made me want to start the conference was I really don't think there's a good conference in the chapel space. Yeah. And there are good conferences in the travel space that are very niche and narrow. you know, like there's a woman in travel summit.That's really great. There's one in Europe culture verse, which I liked, but that's like a couple of hundred people there. Wasn't like a, something to scale, right. With wits, which is women to travel is like 300 people. There was, this is no thousand person, 2000 parts. And like mega travel conference for media that has done like, you know, the conferences we go to where it's like high level, you know, people coming outside of your immediate niche to talk about business skills.You know, there's, you know, In the conferences, there are, there's always the same travel, like it's me and like these other big names, travel bloggers over and over and over again. I want to take what I've seen and, you know, from social media world to, trafficking conversion, to mastermind talks, you know, to take all these things that I had gone to, we were like, let's bring it together for travel.Let's create a high level, not a cheap, like hundred dollar events, like, you know, with major keynotes who get paid to speak, because you know, in a lot of travel conferences, you don't get paid to speak, right? So you're high. You're going to get, you know, Cheryl strayed that come to your event for free.That's not waking up to do that. You know, I, you know, and while I can get nice deals from my friends, you still got to pay people right. For their time. And, and so that allows us to have a larger pool of people to create the event that I want to do. Because we will also get into the point where why should somebody who's been blogging for five or six years, go to travel blogging conference app when nobody is at a more advanced stage of blogging than you are, you know, nobody understands SEO better than you do, right?So like after a while you get into this, just drop off of people being like, do I want to fly around the world and hang out with my friends? So I wanted to also create an event where that I could go to and learn something is that I knew that would attract some of the other OJI, travel bloggers.[00:23:06] Nathan:Yeah. So how the, how the first one go, like what was easier than you expected and what was much harder than you.[00:23:14] Matthew:The first one went really well. We had 650 people, and you know, the next one we had 800. But now we're closed because of Kobe, but we're going to do one in 20, 22. And hopefully we get 800 again, things that shocked me, people buy tickets and don't show up. Right. That's weird. Right. Cause I was like, okay, we have 700, you know, I expected maybe like a 5% attrition rate, you know?So like I sold my 750 tickets, but then like six 50, those 600 showed up because the other 50 of those speakers, right. I was like, wow, that's a lot of no-shows for not achieving conference, you know? And so we plan, you know, a 10% attrition rate now.[00:24:04] Nathan:And you just mean someone who doesn't even pick up their badge? Not even, they didn't come to share us rates keynote, but just like they didn't show up to anything at the conference.[00:24:13] Matthew:Yeah, they just did not show up to the conference at all, you know? And. So that was a shock me. I mean, I know I work in travel and, you know, people get last minute of press trips or they, you know, they buy their ticket and they can't come cause, or they got stuck in the Seychelles or whatever, but I did not expect such a high level of no-shows. Because the food here's another thing, food costs a lot of money. Right.You know, I, I fully understand why the airlines took one olive out of your salad. Right. Because it's one olive, but times a million people every day it's actually adds up. Right. So like you think, oh, well it drinks five bucks.That's cool. We'll do a happy hour. Okay. Now times that by a thousand drinks Write, you know, times two, because everyone's drinking two or three, at least two. Right. So then you're like, okay, that's a $15,000 bill that you ended up with. you know, when everyone is all set up. Tax and tip hotel.It's crazy. It's like, okay, these fees, you're like, oh, I got to spend this like, yeah. Okay. Here is your lunch bill 50 grand.But then there's this fee that fee, this fee, this fee like Jake had like 65. You're like, all right. I guess I got a budget for that too. So that was, that was really weird. Like high is the lunch cost, $40,000, you know, and actually hotels, overcharge, and they add a bunch of fees and yeah, you can get them pretty quick.[00:25:46] Nathan:So if you were, if I was starting to conference. They have 50,000 people on a email list or a hundred thousand. And I'm like, Matt, I heard you started a conference. I'm going to do it too. What advice do you have for me? Like what are the first things that you'd call out?[00:26:03] Matthew:It's going to cost like three times more than you think. pricing. Where I went wrong in the second year. Right. So like we've lost money the first two years doing it, but I expected to lose money. It wasn't because I was investing in this long-term thing. Right. But we're at where I lost more money on the second year is that I really factor in flights as well as I did, like I kind of low balled it.And so I always think he should. Oh. And I also invited, I kept inviting people without really seeing, like, where was I? on my like speaker fees. Right. So like really creating a budget and then sticking to it. And even if that means not getting some of your dream folks, to a later year, but working up the food and beverage costs first, because you know, you go to the hotel and they're going to say your F and B, you know, is $90,000.And if they never going to hit that, no, you're going to go way. You're going to blow cause you got to get them to say, what are all the fees? You know, like, okay. You know, if I have a 300 person conference and I want to do two lunches, what does that look like?Plus all the taxes and fees,[00:27:23] Nathan:Okay, well, you, the launch price and you'll, you'll pencil that into your spreadsheet and they'll fail to mention that there's mandatory gratuity on top of that and taxes and whatever[00:27:33] Matthew:Yeah,And whatever, you know, plate fee there is. Right. So you gotta factor all that in and then look at what you got left.[00:27:40] Nathan:It's like when you're buying a car and you have to talk in terms of the out the door price in[00:27:45] Matthew:Yeah.[00:27:46] Nathan:The sticker price,[00:27:47] Matthew:Yeah. I made that mistake when I bought my car last year, I was like, oh 17. And I was like, wait, how did 17 go from 17,000 to 22? And like, well,[00:27:56] Nathan:Right.[00:27:57] Matthew:Thing that I was like, ah, okay,[00:28:00] Nathan:Yeah. Do you think w what are some of the opportunities that have come out from running the conference and has it had the effects of your community that you've hoped? It would,[00:28:10] Matthew:You know, this is a very, blogger faced event, you know, more than just travel consumers. but it's definitely allowed me to, you know, meet folks like Cheryl Austrade, you know, great way to meet your heroes. Is there pay them to come speak at a conference? so, you know, I, I know Cheryl, like, that's cool.The becoming more ingrained in sort of the, the PR side and with the demos and the brands, because, you know, on the website, I destination marketing organization.[00:28:44] Nathan:Okay.[00:28:45] Matthew:So they're like, you know, visit, you know, Boise visit Idaho, we call them a DMO. And so like since I don't really do press trips on the website, I don't know a lot of them really well.And so this has been a way to be, become more ingrained on that sort of industry side of events and not live in my own. and that's helpful because now I know all these folks, when we want to have meetups that might be sponsored when I do a consumer event, which is next up. So get these folks to come for that.So it's just really been good, just professionally to meet a lot of people that I would normally just not meet simply because I go to events and they were like, Hey, come to our destination, we'll give you a free trip. And like, you have a policy. And so I don't get invited to as many things as you would think.[00:29:37] Nathan:Yeah. Why, why do you have that policy? What do you like? What's behind it. And why is that different from other travel bloggers?[00:29:45] Matthew:Hi, it mostly stems from my hatred of reciprocity. You know, like if you, if I go on a free trip and it sucks, like I then create, it's awkward. If I have to go like hot, like, Hey, you suck. And I have to write this online. Then it creates a lot of bad blood that gets talked about, you know, it's a very small industry.People move around a lot, so you get less opportunities or I can just go, Hey, I'm not going to write that. And then they feel bad. Cause like, you know, like you're a nice person just doing their job, you know, like it's not your fault. I had a bad time. you know, I did this once with a friend and she gave me a couple of places to stay, at a hotel in San Jose, Costa Rica and chill out and sort of tell was really far out of town.And th the amount it took me to take a taxi back and forth. Like, I could've just got a place right. In the center of San Jose, you know? And so I was like, I really, I just don't think it's a good fit for my Anya. And she was very unhappy about it. I was like, I mean, I could write in, but I have to say that.Right. Yeah. And so I just never wanted to put myself in those situations again. I also think that taking a lot of free travel, like I do budget travel. So you given me a resort like that. Doesn't how does that help my audience? So if I start living this awesome life and getting free stuff, that's great for me, but it's not good for my audience.And so I don't mind taking free tours. Like, let's say I'm going to go to Scotland. Right? I did. This actually was real life example. I wanted to access cause I wanted to write about scotch. So I was like, Hey, I don't want to do like the public tour. you know, that 20 bucks, you know, it's like 10 minutes and you get the, I like, I want to talk to people because I want quotes for articles.I'm going to do like history stuff. So I contacted the Scottish tourism board and they got, got me visited. I that's where I went to. I just love P scotch. and so they got me like private tours. So I can like take notes in such. and they gave me a free accommodation that I was like, I want to be really clear about this.I'm not mentioning this place. And they're like, just, just take it. And so, and I didn't mention it and I didn't mention that, you know, I got access to these, you know, distillers to ask some questions, but it was more about building this article as a journalist than,Hey, I want like free tours, you know, like, I mean, I saved 20 bucks. Right. But the point was, I wanted to learn about the process to write about this story beam. And then they offered me free flights and stuff. It was like, now I just, I just want the tourist, please. Thanks.[00:32:44] Nathan:Yeah, it's interesting of the, what a lot of people would view as the perks to get into travel blogging. Right. I want to get into it because then I'd have these free chips or I can have these offs or whatever else, I guess the right apps you get, no matter what, but, You know that that's the other side of like, everything comes with a cost.And I think it's important to realize what you're doing because you want to versus what you're doing, because now you feel obligated because someone gave you something for free.[00:33:12] Matthew:Yeah. The most thing is I tend to accept our city tourism part, which gets you like free access to museums and stuff. I was like, okay, that's cool.But beyond that, I just, you know, I don't want to get into, like, you want to give me a museum pass. I'm going to see these museums anyway. Sure. I'll save some money and I'll, I'll make a wheel note, but I'm going to no obligation to write about which museum, because I write about the ones I like anyway.So,[00:33:39] Nathan:Right.[00:33:40] Matthew:You know, that's not to me like free travel. That's not what people think of Like the perks of. the job are.[00:33:46] Nathan:I, that was funny. When I learned about the, like the welcome packet that cities will, will give, like the first time I saw it in action was. I went to Chris, Guillebeau's like end of the world party in Norway. and I was hanging out with Benny Lewis there who runs, you know, fluent in three months, a mutual friend of both of ours.You've known him longer than I have, but like, we're both at our check into the hotel and he's got like this whole thing of all these museum passes he's got, and he's just like, yeah, I just emailed the tourism board and said, I was going to say, and they're like, oh, blogger. And they gave him like, you know, access to everything and you only ended up using half of it because we weren't there for that long, but,[00:34:28] Matthew:Yeah. That's great. You should always get these discount cards, like the comparison museum pass or the New York mic go card that will save you a lot of money if you're doing lots of heavy sites in.[00:34:39] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah, for sure. okay. So how does actually let's dive into the COVID side, right? Cause COVID took a hit huge hit on the entire traveling. we saw that just in the like running ConvertKit where, you know, having bloggers in so many different areas, we had a lot of growth because lots of people were stuck at home and start like, I'm going to start a new blog.I'm going to have time to, to work on this or whatever. And it was a lot of cancellations, mostly from the travel industry. If people like, look now that what this 50,000 person list, that was a huge asset is now just a giant liability. because no one's planning trips. How did you navigate that time? And what, like, what's the journey been?You know, the last 18 months, two years,[00:35:28] Matthew:Well first I would say that's really shortsighted of someone canceling their 50,000 person list like[00:35:34] Nathan:I think they were like exporting sitting on it and they're going to come back. But, but I agree. It was very shortsighted.[00:35:39] Matthew:Yeah. Like just like throw it away. 50,000 emails, right. I mean, it was tough in the beginning. You know, we went from like January and February were like best months ever, you know? And like, I mean, even, and then all of a sudden like, like March 13th is like that Friday, you know, it's like everything crashes, like again, like we were on our way to have a banner year, like, like, like hand over fist money, you know?And, and then to being like, how am I going to pay the bills? You know? and so, cause you know, we, haven't sort of the, the overhang from Java con, right. You know, like we didn't make money on the first two years. And year three was the, the breakeven year and travel con was in, Right in the world ended in March.Right. And so I had laid out all, like, you're so close to the event, that's you? That's when you start paying your bills. Right. And the world hits and all the sponsors who, you know, have their money, you know, in the accounting department are like, oh, we're not paying this now. And so you're like, well, I've just paid $80,000 in deposits and all that money that was going to offset.It has gone. and then you have people canceling. A lot of people were really mean about it. They're like, oh, I'm, I'm back now. And we're going to do charge backs, that, you know, you have that overhang and just, you know, fall in revenue it's it was really tough. thank God for government loans, to be quite honest, like I, I went to native through if it wasn't for, all that, because a lot of my.My money was tied up in non-liquid assets. So it wasn't like I could just like sell some socks though, you know, pay the bills. but things have come back a lot. I mean, there's a lot of paint up the man, for travel, I view it like this way, right? You got kids, right. You know, they get in trouble, you take away their toy and then you give them back.Right. Where do they want to do now? They just want to play with that toy even more because it's like, no, it's mine. No one else can have it. And like where you want to do this other toy. No. And so now that the toy of travel is being given back to people like people are like, never again, am I going to miss out on this opportunity to travel on my dream trips?Let's make it happen. So we had a really good summer. I spoke to mediocre fall and winter just as the kids are back in school, people are traveling less, you know, but as more in the world, that? will be good. but again, as I said, at the beginning of this, it's going to take awhile for us to get, to get back to where we were, but there's definitely demand there,[00:38:36] Nathan:When's the next conference when the travel con happening again.[00:38:39] Matthew:April 29th,[00:38:41] Nathan:Okay.[00:38:41] Matthew:22,[00:38:42] Nathan:So what's the how of ticket sales benefit for that? Is there like that pent-up demand showing up and people booking conference tickets or are they kind of like, wait and see, you know, you're not going to cancel this one too kind of thing.[00:38:55] Matthew:Yeah, I mean, we're definitely not canceling it. I mean, the world would have to really end for it. We just launched, this week. So, early October, we just announced our first round of speakers. and we sold like 10 or 15 tickets. I don't expect a lot of people, to buy until the new year I saw this.And the old event, right? Because in the old event we were had in May, 2019. Right. And we announced in the fall, but it wasn't until like, you know, a few months prior that people started buy their ticket. Right. Because they don't know where they're going to be. You know, where are they flying from? What were the COVID rules going to be like, the demand is there.But I, I know people are probably just waiting and seats for their own schedule too, you know? So, but you were against so 800 tickets and honestly, from what I've heard from other events, you know, people are selling out, you know, because there was such demand, like it's not a problem of selling the tickets, so I'm not sure.[00:40:01] Nathan:Yeah, one thing, this is just a question that I'm curious for myself. since I also run a conference, what do you think about conferences that rotate cities or like Mo you know, move from city to city, which we've been to a lot of them that do it. You know, the fin con podcast movement areTwo longer running ones that you and I have both been to. obviously that's what you're doing. The travel column. well, domination summit, which we've both been to a lot, you know, it was like very much it's Portland. It's always Portland. We'll never be anywhere anywhere else. What do you think, why did you chose? Why did you choose the approach that you did in what you think the pros and cons are?[00:40:39] Matthew:Yeah, for, for me it was, you know, we're in travel. I wanted to travel. Right. And plus, you know, I mean, you get up, we get a host, right? So like Memphis is our sponsor. Right. It's in Memphis. Yeah, it was supposed to be in new Orleans. New Orleans was our host sponsor. Right. So moving it from city to city allows us to get, you know, a new host sponsor every year is going to pony up a bunch of money.Right. I don't know how Podcast move into it, but I think if I wasn't in travel and it was more something like traffic and conversion, or maybe we'll domination summit, I would probably do it in the same place over and over again because you get better consistency. you know, one of the things I hate about events is that they move dates and move locations.Right. And, and so it's a little hard to in travel cause you know, COVID really screwed us. Right. But we're moving to being, you know, in the same timeframe, right. We're always going to be in early May. That's where I want to fall into like early may travel car, change the city, but you got the same two-week window, because it's hard to plan, right?So like if you're changing dates in cities, you're, you're just off of a year. So I wanted some consistency, make it easier for people to know, like in their calendar, Java con early Mac, Java con, early Mac, you[00:42:17] Nathan:Yep.[00:42:18] Matthew:It doesn't really work out cause of COVID, but post COVID we're we're moving to that, that, early may[00:42:24] Nathan:Yeah. Okay. So let's talk more about sort of scaling different between different levels of the business. So there's a lot of people who say, all right, 10, 20, 50,000 subscribers, somewhere in there. And it's very much the solopreneur of like, this is, I'm a writer. I just do this myself. Or maybe they, you know, contract out graphic design or a little bit more than that.What were some of the hardest things for you and why and what worked and what didn't when you made the switch from it being nomadic, Matt being just Matt to Matt plus a team.[00:43:00] Matthew:Yeah, it It's definitely hard to give up that control, right. Because you always think no one can do your business better than you can. And I mean, even to this day, I still have issues doing, you know, giving up control. Right.[00:43:14] Nathan:What's something that you don't want to, that you're like still holding onto that, you know, you need to let go of[00:43:19] Matthew:Probably just little things like checking in on people and, you know, Content probably like Content. I'm very specific about my voice, the voice we have. So. But I should let my content, people make the content that I know is fine. but I definitely, probably overly check on my teams to be like, what'd you do today?You know, you know, that kind of stuff. but I did take a vacation recently and I went offline for a week and they didn't run the thing down. So I was like, oh right. That was my like, okay, I can, I can let go. And it's going to be okay. But, so getting comfortable with that much earlier on, I would probably save you a lot of stress and anxiety.I definitely think you should move to at least having somebody, you know, a part-time VA, if you're making over six figures, hire somebody because you know, how are you are not going to go from a 100k to 500k really by yourself? Unless, you know, you just have some crazy funnel that you do, but even the people I know who are solopreneurs, they still have two or three people helping them a little bit part, even if it's just part-time because the more money you make, the more time you have to spend keeping that income up.And so your goal as the creator in the owner should be, how can I grow? How can I make more money? It should not be setting up your WordPress blog. You know, It should not be answering joke emails It should not be, you know, scheduling your social media on Hootsuite, that kind of low level stuff can be done by, you know, a part-time VA And maybe that part-time VA becomes a full-time VA as you scale up more. But you know, if you, you have to free up your time and you're never going to free up your time, if you're spending a lot of that time, scheduling. So you mean that the people I know who have half a million dollar businesses, selling courses, you know, and they're really just a solopreneur.They have somebody do that grunt work, right. Plus if you're making that much money, is that the best use of your time now? Really? Right. So getting somebody to do sort of the admin front work, as soon as you can, even if it's on a part-time basis will allow you to focus on growth marketing, and monetization, which is where you should be like Podcast.This week. I have like four or five podcasts I'm doing, right. You know, that is a good chunk of my week. If I have to spend that time scheduling on social media, you know, or setting up blog posts, like I can do that. And this is where the growth in the audience comes in.[00:46:12] Nathan:Okay. So since we're talking about growth, what are the things that you can tie to the effort that you put in that drives growth? Are there direct things or is it a very indirect unattributable[00:46:27] Matthew:Yeah, I think there's some direct things like, you know, before, you know, asking 10 years ago, I would say guest posting on websites. Right. You write a guest post on like Confederacy's site and boom, tons of traffic. Right. that doesn't exist anymore. I mean, yeah. You can get a lot of traffic, but it's not like the huge windfall it used to be, but it's still good for brand awareness.SEO. Great for links. Right. I would say things today that I can tie directly to stuff Podcast and, Instagram. So doing, like, doing a joint Instagram live with another creator. Right. You know, like me and, you know, it's I know pat. because someone with a big following there, we do, we do a talk, you know, 30 minutes, you know, I can see in my analytics, like a huge spike in my following right after that.And so that's a great way to sort of grow your audience is to do Instagram collabs in just like 30 minutes tops and[00:47:32] Nathan:Podcasts[00:47:33] Matthew:I get a lot of people will be like, I saw you on this podcast. I was like, wow, cool.[00:47:37] Nathan:I always struggle with that of like, of all the activities that you can do. Cause you get to a point where there's just so many opportunities open to you and it's like, which are the best use of time. What should you say yes to, what should you say no to, and I don't know. Do you have a filter along those or do you just, is it just kind of gut-feel[00:47:53] Matthew:I will say yes to any text-based interview, normally it is the same questions over and over again. So I sort of have a lot of canned responses that I can just kind of paste. and tweak But those are links, so I'm like, sure. Yeah. Send your questions over. Cut paste, tweak, you know, you know,[00:48:12] Nathan:Customize[00:48:13] Matthew:Customize a little bit, but you know, how many times do I need to rewrite from scratch?How'd you get into blogging, you know, what's your favorite country, Podcasts I definitely have a bigger filter on like you, I don't do new podcasts.[00:48:27] Nathan:Okay.[00:48:27] Matthew:I know that's like bad. because you know, this new podcast could become the next big thing, but come back to me when you have some following.[00:48:36] Nathan:I like Seth, Godin's rule I'm not on south Dakotan's level by any means, but he says like, come back to me. When you have 100 episodes, I will happily be your 100th interview on your podcast or something[00:48:47] Matthew:Yeah.[00:48:48] Nathan:And he's just like, look, Put in your time and then we'll talk.[00:48:51] Matthew:Yeah, so I like, I don't look for just following, but like again, you know, knowing that people give up on blogs, people give up Podcast too. So. You know, you have to have been doing it for like six months a year, like week a weekly, you know? So I know like this something you care about. and I like to listen because you know, you get a lot of new people and they're not really great.You know, they asked us like a lot of canned questions and you're like, listen, you're taking, you know, an hour, hour and a half of my time. You gotta make it interesting for me.Well, yeah, Podcast. And then for Instagram stories you gotta have, or Instagram lives, either a brand new audience, or if you're in travel, at least 75,000.Cause I have like a one 30, so I want to keep it in the same in a level.[00:49:43] Nathan:Yeah.I know nothing about Instagram and promotions on Instagram and all of that is there. If someone were to, like, in my case, if I came to you and say, Hey, I want to grow my Instagram following. I've got 3000 people or 5,000 people or something like that. And I want to be have 50,000 a year from now.Where would you point me?[00:50:05] Matthew:I would say, do you join Instagram lives with people like once a week, you know, and just, or maybe once a week for you and then go to somebody else on their side once a week. So, and just kind of work your way up, like find people in your, your sort of follower count level, you know? So in this case, I'd probably do, you know, you know, 1000 to 5,000, I would look for in your niche and like get online for 30 minutes and talk about whatever it is you want to talk about and and then go to someone else's channel and do that, and then keep doing that because you'll just see giant spikes and then you can move up the the ladder.Then you have 10,000 followers and someone with 25,000 followers might give you the time of day. And then you talk about that, you know, and you just sort of build awareness because you're always there. You're always around.[00:51:03] Nathan:It's a really good point about the figuring out what those rough bands are and reaching out within those. Because I think a lot of people are like, I'm going to go pitch whoever on doing Instagram live together. And it's like, you have 5,000 and they have 150,000. And like the content might be a perfect fit, but they're most likely going to say no, because you're not[00:51:24] Matthew:Yeah.[00:51:24] Nathan:Driving that much value for, or that many subscribers for their audience.[00:51:29] Matthew:Yeah. You know, and so you, maybe I would, you know, someone was like a finance blogger, and they had like 40,000, 30, 40,000. I'd probably.We do it because people who like to say money, like say money on travel. So it'd be like, there's probably a good fit. And you know, 30,000 people, they might not know me or they have like, like you said, 3000, come back to me, you know, when there's another zero,[00:51:57] Nathan:Right. Well, and then the other thing that's going to be true is if I'm bringing you to, to my audience to share and teach something, if you're using this strategy, like go do another 20 of these or 50 of these, and your pitch will be better. And the way that you teach finance to travel bloggers or whatever else it is, is going to get so much better.[00:52:17] Matthew:Yeah,[00:52:18] Nathan:It's like, I kind of don't want to be your Guinea pig. You know, I don't want my audience to be your Guinea[00:52:23] Matthew:Yeah,[00:52:24] Nathan:Pig for your content. And so just get more experienced and come back.[00:52:28] Matthew:Yeah. And you know, you also gotta think about, you know, people are so time-starved right. You know, when I started blogging, I could. There was no Instagram. There was no Snapchat. There was no Tech-Talk, you know, Twitter was barely a thing. So I didn't have to split my focus on so many different platforms and channels.Right. I can just, alright, I can be on this one blog, but now when people are like, whoa, sorry, I have to like manage all these different social channels and all of these comments in the blog and everything. They not don't have like an hour to give, you know, to just anybody way do you could have before,[00:53:12] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Okay. So on the email side, specifically, if someone came to you with say 1,000 newsletter subscribers today, and they're like, I want to grow, I mean, you're looking to grow to 5,000. This might be so far removed from where you're at that you're like, I don't even know if that was, you know, a decade ago that I was in that position, but what are you seeing that's working?Where would you point them?[00:53:33] Matthew:What works for us right now? one having email forms everywhere on your site, sidebar, footer, we have one below the content below the content forms, and popups, popups, the work they're really great. we find for really long posts, having a form in the middle of the post converts better than, at the end of the post, because know a A lot of people don't read to the end, but when they get to in the middle you're still there.You know, if you look at heat maps are really long websites, right? You just see that drop-off right. So if all your forms are at the bottom of the page, they're just not getting the visibility, that you need. so middle of the page,[00:54:19] Nathan:Do you play with a lot of different incentives of like, you know, Opt-in for this fee guide, you know, or are you customizing it to something for a particular country or there, the content that they're reading[00:54:30] Matthew:Yeah, so we use OptinMonster for that. and so we have, like, if If you go to our pages that are tagged Europe, you get a whole different set of options. than if you go to Australia, like, and like the incentives are like, you know, best hostels in Europe, you know, best hostels in Australia, right? Like little checklist guides.And I tweak what the copy for that, you know, just to see what wording, will lift up a better conversion rate. But yeah, we definitely, because, you know, we cover so many geographic areas. The needs of someone going to Europe are a little different than somebody going to New Zealand. So we, we definitely customize that kind of messaging. And I think that helps a lot, you know, and definitely customizing messaging as much as possible. Um know, but in terms of just, you know, we can talk about, you know, the market, like how do you word things, but middle pop-ups and mil of blog posts definitely converts the best. And so like that's where we see a lot of growth, as well as, just on Instagram telling people to sign up for my newsletter or Twitter or Facebook, but don't let the algorithm, you know, keep you from your travel tips, sign up now and people do.[00:55:58] Nathan:Okay. And is that like swipe up on stories that you're doing[00:56:02] Matthew:Yeah.[00:56:03] Nathan:You know, on an Instagram live or all the above?[00:56:06] Matthew:All the above.[00:56:07] Nathan:Yeah.[00:56:07] Matthew:You just constantly reminding people to sign up for the list, you know, and. One of the failings of so many important for influencers today is, you know,They always regret everyone as everyone does. They always regret not starting to list, you know? And so, you know, you just got to hammer into people, sign up for the list, sign up for the list, sign up for the list.Yeah. And a lot of the copy is, do you see all my updates? No. Would you like to sign up for this newsletter?[00:56:39] Nathan:Yeah, because everyone knows. I mean, I come across people all the time. It's like, I used to follow them on Instagram. I haven't seen, oh no, I do still follow them on Instagram. Instagram just decided that I apparently didn't engage with their content enough or something.[00:56:53] Matthew:Yeah,[00:56:54] Nathan:So now I no longer see their posts,[00:56:56] Matthew:Yeah. You like, I go, I always go to my like 50 least interacted profiles. Right. And, you know, there are some people that aren't there. I interact with this guy all the time. How is this the least attractive? But that that's Instagram and saying, here are the people we don't show you in your feet.[00:57:13] Nathan:W where do you see that? Is that[00:57:16] Matthew:If you go to your, who you're following, it's it should be up on the top.[00:57:20] Nathan:Hmm. All right. I'll have to look at that.[00:57:22] Matthew:Yeah. I'll send you a screenshot. and so like, that's the algorithm be like, here are the people who you interact with the least, but it's like, no, I, I love their stuff. why why do it take them from me? So,[00:57:36] Nathan:Zuckerberg is like, do you really love their stuff? I just not feeling it.[00:57:40] Matthew:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, it's just, you know, the algorithms are terrible and what I hate and I learned this last year, and this was sort of a unsurprising, but surprising thing is that stories, which used to be like the latest first.[00:57:59] Nathan:Yeah.[00:57:59] Matthew:That is, they have an algorithm for that now, too. And I was like, I, I shouldn't be surprised, but I am surprised.And I'm annoyed by that because like, I liked it when it was just the newest first, but Nope, now that is based on, you know, sort of like Tik TOK thing of like, oh, this story is getting really a lot of interactions. We'll bring it up the front of people's queue or, you know, so it's not just like your first, because you had one, one second ago, you know, like it could, it's based on an algorithm[00:58:35] Nathan:Yeah.And that's how it's all going to go. Facebook did that a lot, you know, with Facebook fan pages back in the day where it used to be fantastic for engagement. And then they were like, yeah, it's fantastic. If you pay us[00:58:46] Matthew:Yeah. And even then it's like, I would pay to boost posts. I was like, great. You saw, I lectured five people. What? I just gave you a hundred bucks and that was. And there was some guy you remember him commenting last year. He was like, whatever happened to this page? I was like, I'm still here. He's like, no, no, no, no.And this isn't a common thread in Facebook. He's like your pages to get a lot more engagement. What happened? I was like, oh, Facebook algorithm. I was like, people just don't see it. Let me tell you where all my analytics side it's like this page. So I have 2000 people. You're like great. 1%, woo[00:59:23] Nathan:Do you do paid advertising? I'd like to get email subscribers.[00:59:28] Matthew:We used to, but, the CPMs went up so much that it wasn't worth the effort. You know, like paying a dollar 52 bucks for an email subscriber, is just a lot of money for, for, for things. We don't mind ties directly. Like we're not taking people through finals buy a course, right? Like just to get rot email, I'm not paying two bucks for.Yeah. And, and so I just, we stopped paying, like during the pandemic, like, June, June of last year, we were like, oh, we're going to take a break. And then we paid somebody to help us for it to make kind of reset it up. But I just had to spend down so much. I was like, you know what, I'm going to turn off for a bit.And yeah, that's been like,[01:00:17] Nathan:Didn't really miss it.[01:00:18] Matthew:Yeah, I looked at the numbers recently cause I was thinking, should we do it? And it's not that big of a difference of just doing it organically on like Instagram stories or just on the page. Right. And I also don't really like giving money to the Zuckerberg empire of VO. I just not a fan of that business.And so like, I know my ad spend is low, but I can't say just. On a rod number. Like it wasn't that big of a deal. Like, you know, like, cause the CPMs were so high, we were having to pay a lot of money. So like we put in like two grand a month and we weren't getting thousands. We getting hundreds of people, you know, I want four for two grand.I want thousands of people.[01:01:06] Nathan:Yeah. For my local newsletter, we're doing paid advertising on Facebook and Instagram and averaging about $2 per subscriber. And that I think now that's considered pretty good. You'd like a lot of, with a broader audience, you'd be at $3 or more per subscriber and it gets expensive pretty fast.[01:01:23] Matthew:Yeah. I mean, but I think at some point you'll just see such diminishing returns that, you know, I mean, how many people are in Boise, can you hit, you know, over and over again?Right.[01:01:35] Nathan:Yep.[01:01:36] Matthew:I, I was just reading Seth Godin's book. This is Marketing. And he said, you know, they talked about ads.You turned off ads when the Content says turn ‘em off. And my Content, I was like, you know, they're not really paying for themselves.[01:01:50] Nathan:Yeah. Let's see. Yeah. You turn that off. Looking forward, maybe like two or three years is that I think your business has fascinating of the approach that you have of taking an online audience, building a real team around it, and then building it into the in-person community. what do you think the business is going to look like in two, three years?Where, where is revenue coming from? What's your vision for the events and meetups and what are the things that like over that time period, they get really excited.[01:02:19] Matthew:Yeah. Two, three years. So we're talking, you know, 20 by 20, 23, most of our revenue coming from stuff in person, you know, having chapters around the world, people pay to go to them. So, you know, it it's like 10 bucks and you can bring your friends for free, right. So it's like five bucks versus. Just for the cost of like hosting events.Right. doing lots of that, doing tours, we're bringing back. and they won't be just with me cause they're community events. Right. So we'll have guides, right. So it's not just, you're coming to travel with me, sort of what Rick, Steve does. Right. You go on and Rick Steves tour, it's his itinerary, but he's not on the tour.Right. He shows up to a couple of them throughout the season when it's not like you don't expect him to be your guide at the time. So moving to that, having a consumer event for like, like a, like a world domination summit, you know, a weekend somewhere just for travel consumers, having an app for both having an app for that company. then online just being a lot of and affiliates and you know, even me. Just even taking away just having this like passive income course, just because, you know, one less thing to worry about. Right.And then travel con, so being around, but actually making money this time.[01:03:47] Nathan:Do you think travel con is going to turn into, I mean, obviously it's a significant amount of revenue, but the expenses are so high. Do you think it will turn into a profitable business[01:03:56] Matthew:Oh yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, a lot of the unprofitability is just comes from the fact that I had no idea where that was doing.[01:04:02] Nathan:Yeah, I know that firsthand from my own conference, so yeah.[01:04:07] Matthew:It was, I didn't realize how quickly expenses gets that. Right. You know, being like, oh, okay. Like my food and beverage budget is 120,000 writing that in there. And then getting $145,000 bill because, oh yeah, it's 120,000 food, but then there's tax fees, which we, you know, all this stuff and like, Okay, well, that's $25,000 off the profit.Right. and so with a better handle of expenses, like we were definitely like this year, we were gonna like reg even, you know, at the very minimum, we'll pre COVID and this year we'll also break break event. Um it's and just keeping a handle on, you know, like, well, how will I don't invite a hundred speakers, you know?And, and be like, oh, I had planned to only budget, you know, 50,000 speaker fees, but now I'm at 80. Okay. Like, handling the cost better. We're good. Now I have a professional events team that kind of slaps me around and it's like, can't spend that money.[01:05:06] Nathan:I know how it is, where I'm like, Hey, what if, and then just like, now[01:05:10] Matthew:Yeah,[01:05:10] Nathan:Love it, but no,[01:05:12] Matthew:Yeah,[01:05:12] Nathan:Don't like, you don't have the budget for it.[01:05:15] Matthew:Yeah. But no, I mean, you know, we used to have a party. And we're getting rid of the second night party because people don't want to go. Like we didn't have a lot of people show up cause like they're out and about on town. So it's like, wow, I just spent, you know, $40,000 for like a third of the conference to come, you know, why not take that money and use it to something that's more valuable for everybody that has more like impact for dollar spent and still not like go over budget.You know, same thing with lunches. We got, we were getting rid of, we're doing one lunch now.You know, cause people don't really care that much, you know, about in[01:06:01] Nathan:Yeah, it's super interesting.Well, I love the vision of where the conference is going, and particularly just the way that the whole community interplays. I think it's been fun watching you figure out what you want your business model to be, because obviously, with a large audience, your business model can be any one of a hundred different variations.I like that you keep iterating on it, and figuring out the community.[01:06:26] Matthew:Yeah, we're definitely going
Our guest today is a lawyer who hasn't worn a suit since 1995. She's truly disrupting the legal industry, tune in to find out how. Episode Introduction: Erin Austin joins us on Law Chat with Girija to talk all about the importance of protecting your intellectual assets to be able to sell your business without hassle when the time comes. She shares valuable tips, fun anecdotes, and note-worthy hacks with us. Episode Summary: Erin Austin walks us through her journey of working as an intellectual property lawyer in the movie business to now helping female founders protect their intellectual assets to make sure that their business has a legally solid foundation when they're ready to sell it. Main Takeaways: Use law in a strategic way so that it protects your business instead of using it as an outlet to get out of legal trouble while spending a lot of money. Contracts are the only way to transfer ownership of your intellectual property. It is very important to go through the terms and conditions of any third-party software that you may be using in order to understand what you're authorized to use their platform for. Intellectual assets go beyond movies, books, paintings, and other major publications. Wealth empowers you to make an impact. Always remember that a potential buyer is interested in the future of your business, not where you're currently at. Potential buyers are interested in things such as your business' revenue, systems and processes, market position, branding, business insights etc. Make sure you have client contracts and errors and omissions insurance in your business. You need to find synergy in your business so that all the different aspects are working towards the same common goal. Fun Facts About Erin Austin: Some of her favorite business tools are Zoom, MS Office, ClickUp, ConvertKit, LinkedIn and Google Workspace. She would recommend you to read The Business of Expertise by David C. Baker and listen to the The Business of Authority Podcast by J. Stark and R. Moulton. Help us mentor other entrepreneurs through the power of storytelling by rating us and leaving a positive review on Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/law-chat-with-girija/id1528580730 Get the FREE Five Day Legal Audit: https://yourcontractbuddy.com/5-day-free-legal-audit-challenge/ Join Law Chat for Entrepreneurs Free Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/449334726047480 Find Erin Austin: Website: https://thinkbeyondip.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erinaustin/ Get the visual experience, watch the videocast for the episode here: https://youtu.be/tV86xdUdqHE Connect With Girija: Website: https://www.gbplaw.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gbplaw/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GBPLaw/ Get Ready To Use Contact Templates At: https://yourcontractbuddy.com/
Do you monetize your podcast with digital products? Monica Froese is a digital product coach for women business owners and host of the podcast, Empowered Business. She has an MBA degree in finance and marketing and runs two brands Redefining Mom, a site for helping women thrive in both motherhood and business, and Empowered Business, where she's committed to empowering 1000 women to earn $100,000 through digital products. She spent 11 years working for a Fortune 100 company running multi-million dollar marketing campaigns with large brands like Microsoft and HP. Now she provides online marketing education to small businesses that are looking to build a profitable revenue stream through digital products through her online courses and podcast. In this episode, I ask... Why should women entrepreneurs be creating digital products? How do you pick a digital product that will resonate with your audience? Can you create a customer journey that will make your customers LOVE you? How do you build an offer that your audience can't refuse? Passion to Profit Experience - https://monicafroese.com/ps *** Are you interested in starting or growing a podcast AND business with the support of my team and a community of experienced podcasters? Join my Podcaster Pod. You get... Full access to my 8-module podcasting course taking you from idea to launch and everything in between. Equipment and tech, Recording and publishing. Scripts and templates. Everything! Access to me, my team, and a group of experienced podcasters through a private Slack channel Monthly Q&A calls with me and the other Podcaster Pod members. Quarterly Expert Calls Access to me and my network –– meaning I will introduce you to other influencers and people who can help you where it makes sense. Consider joining my new membership site for $27/month. Go to https://dannyozment.com/pod Use code JOINPODPOD to get a 1-month free trial. *** Do you have a website for your business or personal brand or are you building one? If so, then you need WPX hosting. I use WPX for all of my sites and so do many of our clients. For $25/month, WPX's Business Plan gives you Hosting for 5 Websites 10 GB Storage 100 GB Bandwidth Free SSL certificates The WPX Cloud Content Delivery Network They average around 30 second support response time 24/7/365 around the world Provide free unlimited site migration from any host to WPX, usually completed within 24 hours And they are fast because they never overload servers with hosting accounts, unlike so-called 'cheap' hosting which crumbles under any traffic load Sign up for the WPX Business Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/wpx *** Are you building an email list for your business or personal brand? If so, then you need ConvertKit. I use ConvertKit for my list and so do most of our clients. For $29/month, ConvertKit's Creator Plan manages up to 1,000 subscribers Provides unlimited landing pages & forms Sends email broadcasts Provides the ability to Sell digital products & subscriptions Has super fast Email support AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... Gives you Free migration from another tool AND Automated funnels & sequences Get a free 14-day trial of the Creator Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/convertkit *** My Recommended Resources - https://dannyozment.com/resources
Change is hard, especially when it comes to a business or project you've built from the ground up. So how do you know when it's time to iterate on a side hustle? How do you iterate without losing your existing audience? And is it ok to reverse those plans when you suddenly realize that change isn't always for the best? When you're solving a problem, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and doubt the gut feeling that's encouraging you. But making those tough decisions and moving away from what's familiar doesn't have to feel impossible. In this episode, Charli and Haley share their experience with iteration as both professionals at ConvertKit and independent creators. They dive into real-life examples and discuss overcoming the dreaded decision fatigue. Here's everything you need to know about making a change without losing yourself along the way. “The beauty of iterating as a creator is that you can start anywhere. Start with what your gut says is the best direction and as you learn more information, as you get more experience, you can make changes from there and iterate as you go. And it means that you didn't hold yourself back from starting.” ~ @charliprangleyMain takeaways [07:59] When you're thinking about an iteration, ask yourself what's not working about your current process or project and make sure the change you're about to make actually solves that problem. [10:52] When you're deciding what to iterate on, focus on the aspects of your business that are the most important to achieving your goal. Sometimes, that just means focusing on what's most important to you as a creator. [13:13] Always think future-forward. Don't hold on to what's worked in the past because it's familiar. Fear of change should never limit what you can become. [15:30] You can also iterate on process. An iteration doesn't necessarily have to be visible to your audience. If it's visible to you and it impacts how you feel about what you're creating, then that is important, too. Connect with our hosts Charli Prangley Haley Janicek Links Watch The Future Belongs to Creators on YouTube Design Life podcast Femke van Schoonhoven Inside Marketing Design Podcast Loom Creator Sessions monday.com Drew Holcomb returns with new wisdom and music | Creator Sessions Slack Nathan Barry Etsy Craft & Commerce Conference Got a story to tell on The Future Belongs to Creators podcast?We'd love to have you on the show to talk about successes or failures you've experienced on your creator journey. Submit your story here!Start building your audience for freeWith ConvertKit landing pages, you can build a beautiful page for your project in just a few minutes. Choose colors, add photos, build a custom opt-in form, and add your copy. All without writing any code! Check out landingpages.new to get started.Stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Twitter Facebook Instagram
Do you sell products? Steal this strategy from Susan Bradley, ecommerce marketing expert. In this episode, we talk all about what goes into building a successful ecommerce strategy. We talk about product validation (which goes beyond asking your mom), finding your audience, how to talk to your customers in an authentic way, how to build excitement around your product, and what your metrics and conversion rates should really look like. We also talk about imposter syndrome, how building a company is hard work, and how the answer is always consistency. If you sell products or are thinking of starting (and you know I think this is a pillar of every successful online business today), don't miss this episode. Stop Giving Your Content Away for Free! Come to My Live Training! Jillian Leslie 0:11 Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Blogger Genius Podcast. I am your host, Jillian Leslie. And I'm so happy you are here. I don't know if you can tell, but I have a smile on my face. And it's because David, my husband and partner and I have been so busy rolling out our new product called MiloTree Easy Payments. What I wanted to share was my why, why did we create this. And it's really because of you, because of my audience because of the creators that I interact with on a daily basis. So, I'm always so blown away by what people build and create and the content that they share. And there are two pain points that I continually hear creators struggle with, and one is how to monetize. They're giving so much away for free. And they're feeding the algorithms, but they don't have as much to show for it as they would like. And the second is that they have to deal with all these platforms. And that technology is tricky and difficult and frustrating. So, David and I said could we find a way to help creators monetize their audiences and what they know, by creating memberships. Teaching workshops, selling their services. And make it so easy for them to get paid to sell their offerings to manage their back-end businesses and make the technology lean and simple. On November 17th, Alisa Meredith and I are hosting a training for $10 to teach people how to set up paid workshops in under 60 minutes. And in order to set up a paid workshop, let's assume it's going to be an hour long teaching session. The only technology you need is Zoom, an email service provider like Mailchimp, or ConvertKit, or MailerLite and three, MiloTree Easy Payments. I would love it if you came to this workshop. In order to sign up, all you do is you go to workshop.milotreecart.com. Take a look at our sales page. This took me about 10 minutes to set up. And with your easy payments account, you will get one just like this and we'll host it for you. Just briefly how can a workshop move the needle for your business? One, you are monetizing your audience monetizing what you know instead of putting out so much free content. Two, you get to show up live for your community and hear what they're struggling with. So, you know what direction to move your business. Three, because the platform is so easy to use, you can experiment with memberships or coaching. And the best part again with you in mind is there's no monthly fee to use MiloTree Easy Payments. We charge a small transaction fee so we don't make money until you make money. This way we are 100% aligned. Other Blogger Genius Podcast episodes to listen to: How To Grow a Successful Business as a One-Woman Show with Lisa Steele How To Figure Out What To Sell with Kaycee Geeding How to Win Selling on Shopify with Elle McCann Imagine a world where growing your social media followers and email list was easy… If you are looking for ways to grow your community whether that be email whether that be social media, right now head to Milotree.com install the MiloTree app on your blog and it will do the work for you. Let it do the heavy lifting for you. Let it pop up in front of your visitors and ask them to follow you on Instagram Pinterest, YouTube, Facebook, join your list, check out the exit intent but really get your community growing. And we'd love to help you with MiloTree. And I will see you here again next week. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!
You're in a pinch and need an extra $1k this month... Or you're just wishing you could buy yourself a Louis Vuitton bag. Whatever your reasoning is, YOU are in charge of your own business and totally have the power to make that money!! Here's how you can make $1,000 now. Want to build a multi-6-figure biz on YouTube? Sign up for my FREE workshop, happening 11/9 at 1 PM EST: https://heyjessica.com/6figureyoutube Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicapodcast
Andrew Warner has been part of the internet startup scene since 1997. Andrew and his brother built a $30 million per year online business, which they later sold. After taking an extended vacation and doing some traveling, Andrew started Mixergy. Mixergy helps ambitious upstarts learn from some of the most successful people in business.Andrew and I talk about his new book, Stop Asking Questions. It's a great read on leading dynamic interviews, and learning anything from anyone. We also talk about longevity and burnout as an entrepreneur. Andrew gives me feedback about my interviewing style, the direction I should take the podcast, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Why you need to understand and communicate your mission How to get your guest excited about being interviewed What to do instead of asking questions How to hook your audience and keep them engaged Links & Resources ConvertKit Gregg Spiridellis JibJab Ali Abdaal The Web App Challenge: From Zero to $5,000/month In 6 Months Groove Zendesk Help Scout Jordan Harbinger Noah Kagan Bob Hiler Seth Godin Morning Brew Alex Lieberman Keap (formerly Infusionsoft) Notion Sahil Bloom Ryan Holiday Brent Underwood Ghost Town Living Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator Damn Gravity Paul Graham Y Combinator Nathan Barry: Authority Ira Glass NPR This American Life Barbara Walters Richard Nixon interview Oprah interview with Lance Armstrong Matt Mullenweg Chris Pearson Conspiracy: Peter Thiel, Hulk Hogan, Gawker, and the Anatomy of Intrigue Peter Thiel Gawker Nick Denton The Wall Street Journal Rohit Sharma SanDisk Jason Calacanis Dickie Bush Sean McCabe Daily Content Machine Jordan Peterson Tribes Warren Buffet Sam Walton Ted Turner GothamChess LinkedIn Learning (formerly Lynda.com) Inc.com: Selling Your Company When You're Running on Fumes Chess.com Mark Cuban James Altucher Rod Drury Andrew Warner's Links Andrew Warner Stop Asking Questions Mixergy Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Andrew:The top 10 interviews of all time are news-based interviews. We, as podcasters, keep thinking, “How do I get enough in the can, so if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month, so I can be consistent, and the audience loves me.”That's great, but I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who's suddenly done something, we should go ask to do an interview with them.[00:00:32] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to my friend, Andrew Warner, who I've known for a long time. He actually played a really crucial role in the ConvertKit story in the early days, and provided some great encouragement along the way to help me continue the company, and get through some tough spots.We actually don't get into that in this episode, but it takes an interesting turn because we just dive right in.Andrew's got a book on interviewing. He runs Mixergy. He's been, running Mixergy for a long time. We talk about longevity and burnout, and a bunch of other things. He dives in and challenges me, and gives me feedback on my interviewing style. Where I should take the Podcast, and a bunch of other stuff. It's more of a casual conversation than the back-and-forth interview of how he grew his business. But I think you'll like it. It's a lot of what I'm going for on the show.So anyway, enjoy the episode.Andrew, welcome to the show.[00:01:25] Andrew:Thanks for having me on.[00:01:26] Nathan:There's all kinds of things we can talk about today, but I want to start with the new book that you got coming out.This is actually slightly intimidating; I am interviewing someone who has a book coming out about how to be good at interviewing. Where do we even go from here? You were saying that you have thoughts?[00:01:47] Andrew:I have feedback for you. I have a thoughts on your program.[00:01:51] Nathan:I'm now even more nervous.[00:01:52] Andrew:I've been listening, and I've been following, and I've been looking for questioning styles. Is there feedback I could give him? I mean, I've wrote a whole book on it. I should have tons of ideas on that.I don't. Here's the thing that stood out for me watching you. There's an ease and a comfort with these guests, but I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to do with the Podcast. What is connecting them? Are you trying to bring me, the listener, in and teach me how to become a better creator who's going to grow an audience and make a career out of it? Or are you trying to learn for yourself what to do?How to become closer to what Ali Abdaal doing, for example, or Sahil Bloom? Are you trying to do what they did, and grow your audience? Or is it a combination of the two?I think the lack of that focus makes me feel a little untethered, and I know that being untethered and going raw, and letting it go anywhere is fine, but I think it would be helpful if you gave me a mission.What's the mission that Nathan Barry's on with the Podcast. Why is he doing these interviews?[00:02:56] Nathan:Oh, that's interesting. Because it's probably different: my mission, versus the audience members' mission.[00:03:05] Andrew:I think you should have a boat together and, but go ahead.[00:03:08] Nathan:I was going to say mine is to meet interesting people. Like that's the thing I found that, podcasts are the pressure from two sides, one as a creator, as an individual online, like I'm not going to set aside the time to be like, you know what, I'm going to meet one interesting person a week and we're just going to have a conversation riff on something like that.Doesn't happen the times that, you know, the years that I didn't do this show, I didn't set aside like deliberate time to do that. And then the other thing is if I were to set aside that time and send out that email, I think a lot of people would be like, I kind of had to have a busy week. I don't know that I've, you know, like yeah, sure.Nathan, whoever you are. I did a Google search. You seem moderately interesting. I'm not sure that I want to get on that.Like a, get to know[00:03:58] Andrew:They wouldn't and it would be awkward. And you're right. The Podcast gives you an excuse. I think you should go higher level with it though. I think you should go deep to the point where you feel vulnerable. I think what you should do is say something like this, isn't it. You have to go into your own into your own mission and say, this is what it is.And just, so let me set the context for why this matters. I think it helps the audience know, but it also helps you get better guests to give better of themselves. I talk in the book about how I was interviewing Greg spirit, Dallas, the guy who created jib, jab, you know, those old viral video, it was a fire video factory that also created apps that allowed you to turn your yourself into like a viral meme that you could then send to your friends.Anyway, he didn't know me. He was incredibly successful. He was, I think, person of the year, a company of the year named by time. He was on the tonight show because he created these videos that had gone viral. And yes. He said yes, because a friend of a friend invited him, but I could see that he was just kind of slouching.He was wearing a baseball cap. It wasn't a good position. And then he said, why are we doing this? And I said, I want to do a story. That's so important. That tells the story of how you built your business. Yes. For my audience. So they see how new businesses are being built online, but let's make it so clear about what you did, that your great grandkids can listen to this.And then they will know how to great grandfather do this and put us in this situation. And that's what I wanted. I wanted for him to create that. And he told me that afterwards, if he had known that that was a mission, he wouldn't have put his hat on. He said that after that, he started thinking about the business in a more in depth way, visualizing his great grandchild.And then later on, he asked me for that recording so that he could have it in his family collection. So the reason I say that is I want us to have a mission. That's that important that yes. You could get somebody to sit in front of the camera because you're telling me you're doing a podcast, frankly.Right. You're with ConvertKit they're going to say yes, but how do you bring the best out of them? And that's it. And so that's why I'm doing this. And so one suggestion for you is to say something like.I'm Nathan, I've been a creator my whole life, but I'm starting from scratch right now with YouTube.I've got 435 people watching YouTube. It's not terrible, but it's clearly not where I want to end up. And so what I've decided to do is instead of saying, I've created the book authority, I wrote it. I'm the one who created software that all these creators are using a ConvertKit. Instead of, instead of allowing myself to have the comfort of all my past successes, I'm going to have the discomfort of saying, I don't know what it's like.And so I'm going to bring on all these people who, because maybe I've got credibility from ConvertKit are going to do interviews with me. And they're going to teach me like Alia doll and others are going to teach me how they became better creators, better business people. I'm going to use it to inform my, my, growth on YouTube.And by the way, You'll all get to follow along. And if you want to follow along and build along with me, this is going to come from an earnest place. Now I've obviously gone. Long-winded cause I'm kind of riffing here, but that's a mission. And now we're watching as you go from four to 500, now we care about your growth.Now there's someone giving you feedback and more importantly, there's someone who then can go back years later and see the breadcrumbs. Even if the whole thing fails and say, you know what?Nathan made it in virtual reality videos. And he's amazing. But look at what he did when YouTube was there. He clearly didn't do it, but he aspired right. I could aspire to, if I don't do it, I'll do it in the next level. That's that's what I'm going for with it. I talk too much sometimes and give people too much, too much feedback. How does that sit with you?[00:07:14] Nathan:I like the idea. I particularly love anytime a creator's going on a journey and inviting people along for it, right. When you're sitting there and giving advice or whatever else, it's just not that compelling to follow it unless there's a destination in mind. So I did that with ConvertKit in the early days of, I said, like I called it the web app challenge said, I'm trying to grow it from zero to 5,000 a month in recurring revenue.Within six months, I'm going to like live blog, the whole thing. people love that another example would be also in the SAS space, but, the company grew, they did a customer support software and they, I think. They were going from 25,000 a month to 500,000 a month was their goal. and they even have like, in their opt-in form, as they blogged and shared all the lessons, it had like a progress bar.You'd see, like MRR was at 40,000,[00:08:08] Andrew:Every time you read a blog post, you see the MRR and the reason that you don't remember what the number was is I believe that they changed it, you know, as they achieve the goal, they, they changed it to show the next goal on their list. And yeah, and you've got to follow along now. Why do I care? The groove, HQ or groove is, is growing a competitor to Zendesk and help scout.But now that I'm following along, I'm kind of invested now that I see how they're writing about their progress. I really do care. And by the way, what is this groove and why is it better than help scout and the others? Yeah. I agree with you. I think that makes a lot of sense. I think in conversations also, it makes a lot of sense.I think a lot of people will come to me and say, Andrew, can I just ask you for some feedback? I'm a student. Can I ask you for support? It's helpful for them to ask, but if they could ground me in the purpose, if you could say to somebody I'm coming to you with these questions, because this is where I'm trying to go, it changes the way that they react.It makes them also feel more on onboard with the mission. I have a sense that there is one, I'm just saying nail it, you know, who does it really good? who does a great job with it is a Jordan harbinger. He starts out his each episode is almost if you're a fan of his, it's almost like enough already. I get that.You're going to do an opt-in in the beginning of the Podcast. I get that. What you're trying to do is show us how to whatever network now and become better people. But it's fine. I'd much rather people say, I know too much about what this mission is. Then I don't.[00:09:26] Nathan:Do you who's afraid anyone else tuning in? What, what is Jordan's mission? What would he say is the mission that[00:09:32] Andrew:It's about, see, that's the other thing I can't actually, even though I've heard it a billion times, he's adjusted it. It's about, self-improvement making me a better person better, man. And so the earnestness of that makes me accept when he brings somebody on who's a little bit too academic who's, Jordan's interested in it or a little bit too practical to the point where it feels like I'm just getting too many tips on how to network and I don't need it, but I've got his sensibility.He's trying to make me a better person. And so I think with interviews, if you, if you give people the, the mission, they'll forgive more, they'll accommodate the largest and it does allow you to have a broader, a broader set of topics.[00:10:14] Nathan:Yeah. I'm thinking about the mission side of it. Like all of that resonates. and I love when an interview is questions are Like are the questions that they specifically want to know? It's not like I went through my list and this seems like a good question to ask instead. It's like, no, no, no, Andrew specifically, I want to know what should I do about, this?And I'll even call that out in a show and be like, look, I don't even care if there's an audience right now. Like this is my list, you know?[00:10:41] Andrew:Yes.[00:10:41] Nathan:But the, like if we dive into the mission, the one that you outlined doesn't quite resonate. And I think the reason. I think about, creators who have already made it in some way.And it starts to lose that earnestness. Like, honestly, I'm not that interested in, in growing a YouTube[00:11:00] Andrew:I don't think that that's I don't think that that's it for you. It's true. That's a little bit too. I don't know. It's it's a little, it's a little too early in the career. There is something there. I don't know what it is and it can't be enough. It can't be enough to say I need to meet interesting people because that's very youth centric and I'm not on a mission to watch you, unless you're really going to go for like the super right.And we're constantly aspiring, inspiring. the other thing it could be as you're running a company, you're trying to understand what's going on. No Kagan did that really well. I actually have the reason that I know this stuff is in order to write the book. I said, I have all my transcripts. I can study all the ways that I've questioned, but I also want to see what other people have done.And so Noah Kagan did this interview with an NPR producer. I had that transcribed to understand what he did and what he learned. One of the things that he did in that, that made that such a compelling interview is. He was a podcaster who wanted to improve his podcasting. And he, I think he even paid the producer to do an interview with him on his podcast so that he could learn from him.Right. And in the process, he's asking serious questions that he's really wondering. He's trying to figure out how to make a show more interesting for himself. Now. Clearly someone like me, who wants to make my Podcast more interesting. I'm like mentally scribbling notes as I'm running, listening to the podcasting.Oh yeah. The rule of three, like what are the three things you're going to show me?Well, yeah, at the end he did summarize it and he did edit. I don't like the edits at all because the edits take away some of the rawness of it and the discomfort which I personally enjoy, but I see now how he's editing it out.And it's, it's interesting to watch that progress.[00:12:32] Nathan:Yeah, I'm thinking through. The different angles that I could take with this. cause I like it and I feel like there's a, a thread that's not quite there. And I felt that on the show. Right. Cause people ask, oh, why are you having this guest on versus that guest? and it is that like, I, I find them interesting.There's also another angle of like probably half the guests maybe are on ConvertKit already. And so I want to highlight that. And then the other half of the guests aren't and I want them on ConvertKit and so that's an, you know, an incredibly easy, I can send you a cold email and be like, Andrew switched to ConvertKit.Right. Or I could be like, Hey, you know, have you on the show, we could talk. and we've gotten great people like in the music space and other areas from just having them on the show and then[00:13:18] Andrew:Can I give you, by the way, I know it's a sidetrack and I give you a great story of someone who did that. Okay. it's not someone that, you know, it's a guy who for years had helped me out. His name is Bob Highler every week he would get on a call with me and give me advice on how to improve the business.And then at one point he said, you know what? I need new clients. I want to start going after people who are, I want to start going after lawyers, helping them with their online ads, because lawyers aren't, aren't doing well enough.He started doing all these marketing campaigns because he's a marketer. And so one of the things he did was he got these cards printed up.He said, they look just like wedding invitations, beautiful. He, he mailed them out to lawyers. He got one, two responses. Like nobody would pay attention to a stranger, even if they were earnest and sending those out. And he goes, you know, and then he gets on a call. He doesn't even know what to say to people.If he just cold calling goes, I'm going to try to do that. And Andrew, I'm going to do an interview show for lawyers. He picked bankruptcy lawyers. He started asking them for interviews. They were all flattered because they also want another good Google hit. Right. And so they said yes to him and he asked them questions.Then I started learning the language. I forget all the different terms that he learned about how, about how they operate. But he said, inevitably at the end, they'll go after it was done. And say, by the way, what are you. And then he'd have a chance to tell them. And because he's built up this rapport and they trust him, they were much more likely to sign them.He signed up his customers, just like that, just like that. It's a, I think it's an, it's an unexplored way of doing it, of, of growing a business, taking an interest in someone, shining a light on them, helping them get that Google hit and helping them tell their story. And then by the way, will you pay attention to the fact that I've got a thing that if you like me, you might like also,[00:14:50] Nathan:So a few years ago, I was in New York and Seth Goden had come out to speak at our conference and he'd ever said, Hey, if you're in New York and want to make the pilgrimage up to Hastings on Hudson, you know, of outside the city, like come up and visit. And so I did that and it's so funny, cause it is like this pilgrimage to you, you like take the train up along the river. You know, I don't know what it is an hour and a half outside of the city. and I was asking Seth advice at his office, about like how to reach more authors. I think that was the question I asked him specifically and he just, he was like, well, what do authors want? And I was like, ah, I, some more books I guess.And he's like, yeah know. And so like we went through a series of questions, but he's basically what he came to was, find a way to get them attention so that they can grow their audience to sell more books. And he was suggesting a podcast is the way to do that. What's interesting is that's the side, like that's the other half of it, right.I want to meet interesting people. I want to, Like get more of those people that I find really interesting on ConvertKit pushed the limits of like, our customer base in, in those areas. And then the third thing is I want to do it in a way that's high leverage in my time. Write of, I want to do it.That creates something, for people watching and listening along so they can follow the journey. But I still don't see,I would say two thirds of that is about me, right?[00:16:18] Andrew:It's not only that, but all these things are byproducts more than they are the clear goal. You're going to get that. No matter what, if you just talk all day about what? No, not talk all day. If you do, what was it? I'm the founder of morning brew does nothing, but like a 15 minute, if that sometimes five minutes.[00:16:37] Nathan:Alex Lieberman.[00:16:38] Andrew:Yeah, just what, what goes on in his life now it's changed over the years or so that he's done it, but it's just, here's what we were thinking about today. Here's how I'm deciding to hire somebody BA done. He's just doing that. That's enough to get attention enough to also broaden his audience enough to bring us in and then so on.So I think if you just did nothing, but get on camera and talk for a bit, you'll get that. But I think a higher leverage thing is to tap into that personal mission and let all the others come through along the way and all the other benefits, meaning that you will get to meet people and change the way you think you will get to get people to switch to convert kit.And so on, by the way, that's such a, like an impressive thing for you to admit, to say, I want to have these guests on because I want to assign them up. I think a lot of people would have those ulterior motives and[00:17:23] Nathan:Oh, no, you got to just talk about, I mean, that's something you and I, for as long as we've known each other have been very, very transparent in both of our separate businesses and our conversations and it's just, everyone wants that. Right? Cause they're like, I think I know why Nathan is doing this, but he wants.And that would be weird, but if we go to the mission side of it, there's mission of like this, I'm going to improve the world side of mission, which definitely exists that can protect you. And I got my little plaque behind me. It says we exist to help creators are living. And so we can take that angle of it, thinking of like the, the goal journey side of things, since we're just riffing on ideas.One way that might be interesting is to make like a top 100 list of the top 100 creators we want on ConvertKit. And the whole podcast is about interviewing those people and reaching them. And, and so it could be like, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. And you're going to learn a whole bunch along the way as a listener, but you, you know, we check in on that.And then another angle that we could take that would be different is the, like we're going together. We're going to help the creator make the best version of their business. And so you make it more of a.We're both peers diving in on your business, riffing on it, you know, how would we improve it? that kind of thing.[00:18:43] Andrew:I think helping creators create a business, seems like something others have done, but not quite your approach, your style, the way that you will go and carve something is this is the thing that's over your head that says create. Is that something you carved in your wood shop? Then I saw on Instagram.Yeah, right. The sensibility of I've got to create it my way. Instead of that's a pain in the ass, I got a business to run who like, right. You're not going to see, for example, infusion soft, go, we need a plaque. Let's go to the wood shop. No, you're not. It's just not their sensibility. Right. Coming from a sensibility of someone who cares about the details, who every button matters in the software, everything behind your shoulder matters to you for yourself, even the stuff I imagine.If you look forward would have a meaning there, it wouldn't be random chaos. Is it random chaos in front of, on the[00:19:32] Nathan:The desk is random chaos, but there's a sign that says the future belongs to creators up there. And[00:19:38] Andrew:Okay. I think I might've even seen that online somewhere. So I think that coming, coming from the business point of view, With a sense of creator's taste, I think is something that would appeal to a lot of people. For whom seeing, for example, my take on business would be completely abhorring. All I care about is where the numbers are and what it's like.Right. Well, even allium doll's take on, it would not be, would not be right, because he's much more about every movement needs to matter. He can't just have a checkbox in notion it Ellis has to fire off five different other things that notion because otherwise you're wasting time. Why type five things when you could type one, right.It's a different sensibility. And I think you've always done really well drawing in that audience. I remember talking to a competitor of yours who started around the same time, also done really well about why you were, you were really growing tremendously faster. and they said he nailed it. He nailed who his audience is.It's the bloggers. It's these early creators who, who didn't have. Who didn't have anyone speaking for them. And you did that. And I think maybe that's an approach to saying, look, we are creators. And the business of creation is, or the business of being a creator is evolving and we want to learn about every part of it.And then it's interesting to hear how somebody growing their audience in an interesting way. How is somebody thinking about writing? I love that you asked Sahil bloom about how long it took him to write. I know he talks about it a bunch, but it's, it's interesting to hear him go with you about how it is like a five hour, seven hour writing job for him, right.To write fricking tweets. He's writing tweets, right? You've got people just firing off the tweet. He's spending five, seven hours on it. And, and he's also not a guy who's just like, right. It would be something if he was still in school playing baseball, and this is his intellectual, whatever. No, he's now running in investments.He's making decisions. He's helping promote his, his portfolio companies and he's spending five hours writing and he's doing it like one a week instead of one an hour. Right. It's all very interesting. And that approach, I think, ties completely well with ConvertKit.[00:21:41] Nathan:Okay. So where does that take us on like the mission or the hook for the show? Cause we're.[00:21:48] Andrew:Okay. Here's what I would do. I would, I would just keep riffing go. My name is Nathan Barry. You probably know me from convert kit. I'm doing this podcast because I like to meet interesting people. And here's the thing I'm trying to do or I'm I I'm doing it because I'm compelled to talk to these people who I admire.And I also want to learn from them about how they create and just riff on it. Like every week, even have every interview have a different one, until you feel like, oh, that's the one that feels just right. But if we just here, I want to have this person on, because I'm trying to learn this thing. I want to have this on because secretly I'm trying to see if I can get him to be at, see if I can get Ryan holiday to actually be on convert kit.Right. Boom. Now, now we're kind of following along as you're figuring it out. And that's also[00:22:29] Nathan:Yeah.[00:22:29] Andrew:The way, is Ryan holiday going to be on here or what?[00:22:31] Nathan:On the show,[00:22:33] Andrew:Yeah.[00:22:34] Nathan:Probably we were just talking the other day. We have a shared investment in a ghost town, So we, we often talk about that,[00:22:40] Andrew:Oh yeah. I've[00:22:42] Nathan:Other thing[00:22:43] Andrew:That ghost town. Oh, that's a whole other thing I've been watching that[00:22:45] Nathan:I need to have speaking of the ghost town, I didn't have Brent Underwood on because that Is an insane story of everything going on with town, but it's just been building this massive audience.[00:22:58] Andrew:Who's doing YouTube videos from there? He[00:23:00] Nathan:Yeah. And he's now got 1.2[00:23:01] Andrew:Yeah,[00:23:02] Nathan:Subscribers on YouTube, like 2 million on[00:23:04] Andrew:I had no idea. I watched him in the early days of the pandemic go into this place by himself. Almost get trapped, driving his car to get there. Right. I go, this is fun content. And usually when you watch someone like that and good morning, America go, and I'm going to jump out of this thing.And I've never jumped before, maybe whatever. I don't know.Yo, the producer's not going to let you die. It's fine. Here you go, dude. Who's just trying to get attention for this thing. Cause he has some investors who he wants to make sure get what they want. Yeah, you could die. What the hell is you doing?What? Like I'm going to, I'm going to go down this hole and see if there's anything over you yet. Dude, you could[00:23:41] Nathan:Yeah. It's, it's pretty wild. I actually, some of the weeks that he don't, he, that he didn't post the videos. I'd like, texted him, be like, Brett, you're still alive because you know, the video was the way that we knew every Friday, like, okay, Good Brent. Still alive, everything. Everything's good. Anyway, I got to have him[00:23:58] Andrew:All right. If you do talk to, if you talk to Ryan holiday, I feel like you totally nailed his writing style, where you, you said in one of your past episodes that he can take a whole historical story, sum it up in two sentences to help clarify the moment that he's writing about. And it's like a toss away thing, right? Just toss it away and then move on and go, dude. That's a whole freaking book. In fact, just turning the whole thing into just two sentences to fit in there would take silo, bloom five hours. You put it in a book with other, like there a bunch of other sentences. So that's good. But here's what I think you should talk to him about.Or here's my, my one suggestion. He has not talked about Marketing since he created, trust me. I'm a lot. Trust me. I'm lying, which was a phenomenal book that then I feel like he distanced himself from when he became more stoic and more intellectual. Fine. He is still a great, great marketer along your style, your tasty.And in fact, he's becoming the people who I can think of that are very, ConvertKit like philosophy in their creation plus promotion. He nails it, right? Art that takes so much pain that you've mentioned, and we've all seen it. He has boxes of index cards to create these sentences that most people would just throw away, not pay attention to, but are super meaningful.And at the same time, he knows how to promote. He knows how to get his ideas out there. He knows how to sell a coin that says you're going to die in Latin, that people put in their pockets that are more than just selling a coin. It's selling this transferable viral, real life thing. Right. So anyway. And is he should be on a ConvertKit too.[00:25:29] Nathan:He is, he is[00:25:30] Andrew:Okay. Good.[00:25:31] Nathan:Half of his list started in Berkeley. The other half are in the process of switching over. So, you know,[00:25:36] Andrew:Okay. Yeah, that's the hard part, dude. I I'm with infusion soft. I can't stand them. If you understand how much I do not like them. I do I ever talk negatively about anyone. No. Bring up politics, Joe Biden, Donald Trump. I got no strong opinion about anything you talked to me about, about infusions. Ah, but the problem is it's so hard to wean yourself off of these things because once you're in a system, that's it[00:25:56] Nathan:Well we'll make it happen. W w we'll figure out a way, but the new book landing page for it, I went on there and inspected element. It's definitely a ConvertKit for them. I was pretty happy about it.[00:26:06] Andrew:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So truthfully it was, I said, I'm not going to school around here. It would have probably been easier for me to go with, with infusion soft because then we all we'd have to do with tag people who were interested. And then I could, I don't want that. I don't want that nonsense because it comes with overhead.That becomes an obstacle to me, communicating with my audience by, by overhead. I mean, they've got historic legacy. Requirement's that mean I can't do anything right. You I'm on my iPad. I could just go in and send a message out. Or actually I haven't sent a message out. Someone else has sent a message out.Our publisher sent a message then from damn, ah, damn gravity. But I, but if someone says there's a problem, I can go in and see it.[00:26:44] Nathan:Right.[00:26:44] Andrew:And make adjustments. The whole thing just fricking works. Right?[00:26:47] Nathan:So I want to talk about the book more. Let's talk[00:26:49] Andrew:Sure.[00:26:50] Nathan:And now I have you here.[00:26:52] Andrew:Ben needs, us to talk about the book. He's the publisher.[00:26:54] Nathan:We'll get to that, then don't worry. Ben, we've got it covered. so you were giving unsolicited feedback, which by the way is my favorite kind of feedback. Okay.So as you've been listening to the show, what are some other things that maybe you recommended the book, maybe like as you set people up for interview questions, any of that advice that you would give beyond?We started with the men.[00:27:15] Andrew:I'm going to suggest that people who listen to you do pay attention to this. One thing that they should, I I'm interrupting you in a roadway now there's some good interruption that I write about in the book and I can tell you how to do it. Right. And I also have to say that there's some new Yorker that's built in, even though I've left New York a long time ago, that I, I always interrupt when we need to get into the bottom line.Okay. Here's one thing that I think people should pay attention with you. You don't just ask questions. You will, at times interject your own story, your own, take your own experience. And I find that a lot of times people either do it in a heavy handed way. It's like, look at me, I'm equal to you. I deserve to be in this conversation too.And that doesn't just happen on Mike. It happens at dinner parties or it's more like I have to be reverential. So I'm asking questions and it's me asking about them. And one of the things that I learned over the years, Getting to know someone interviewing someone, whether it's like you and I are doing in our podcasts and shows or doing it, in a, in a dinner conversation, it's not asking questions.It's not about saying here's my next thing. Here's my next question. It's overwhelming and draining to do that. You do need to say, well, here's me. You do need to sometimes just guide the person to say, now tell me how you wrote the book. Now tell me how long it takes to, to write a tweet, right? Whatever it is, you need to sometimes direct the person.And so I call the book, stop asking questions because that counter intuitive piece of knowledge is something that took me a fricking interview coach to help me accept that. It's true, but it helps. And you do it really well. And here's why you do it. Well, you interject something personal. Somehow you do it succinctly.You don't get rambling off. Maybe you edit that.No, no, because the videos are there. Yeah. It's, it's not edited. It's just you saying here's, here's my experience with this. And then when you come back and you ask something. It informs the guest about where you are and what they could contribute to that. It lets them also feel like this is a dialogue instead of them being pounded with demands of, in the forms of question.[00:29:15] Nathan:Yeah. Yeah. I think that for anyone listening and thinking about starting a podcast, it's really like, what's the kind of thing that you want to listen to. And I like it where the host is like a character in the, in the Podcast, in the episode where they're contributing content and it's not just like, oh, if I listened to Andrew on these 10 shows, I'm just going to get Andrew.Like, I want it where it's like, no, I'm getting the blend between these two people. And the unique things that come from that intersection rather than, you know, I've heard this[00:29:46] Andrew:Yes.[00:29:47] Nathan:I've heard about it.[00:29:48] Andrew:I think also it took me a long time years of, so I started doing this in 2007, give or take a year and I think. No one needs to talk about, I don't need to talk about myself. They don't care about me. They care about, you know, Paul Graham, who I'm interviewing about how he found a Y Combinator, someone.And I would get tons of emails from people saying, tell us who you are. Tell us a little bit about yourself. And I would argue with them and say, no, but I understand now on the outside, when I listen, I don't know who you are. And it feels very awkward to hear it. It feels very much like, I don't know why, where you're coming from.And so I don't know why I should listen. It's kinda, it's it's counterintuitive.[00:30:29] Nathan:Yeah. I think it just comes with comfort over time. Like, I, I don't know this for sure. If I bet if I listen back to my first podcast episodes, the ones that I did in like 2015. I have a different style because I bet I'm less comfortable or more worried about like, make sure that I shut up quickly so that the guests can talk more because people came here for the guest and then over time you just get more comfortable.[00:30:53] Andrew:So you wrote authority and I remember you, I remember buying it and I remember you bundled it with a bunch of stuff, right. And oh, by the way, it's so cool. I was listening to it on a run and I heard you mention my name in the, in the book I go, this is great and I'm running. but I remember you did interviews there.I don't remember whether the style matches up to today or what, but you did interviews in it. Right.[00:31:15] Nathan:I did.[00:31:16] Andrew:And what you had there that I think is always important to have with all, all interviews is you had a sense of like, well, the sense of mission, I knew what you were going for, because you were trying to say, here is this book that I've written on this topic.I'm want to bring these people in to bring their, their take on it. We were all kind of working together. And I feel like, when I look at my earlier interviews, I listened to them. The Mike sucks so badly. I was too ponderous. Cause I wanted to be like, IRA glass from, from NPR, from this American life.And you could hear the same rhythm, the same cadence, like I'm copying him. Like I'm his little brother trying to learn how to be like a real boy. but I had this real need. I was trying to figure out how these people were building companies that work to understand what holes I had in my understanding to see what was working for them that I didn't know before.And you could see that and it, it helps. It helped me continue. Even when I was nervous with the guest, it helped the guests know where to go. Even when I wasn't doing good job, guiding them and help the audience keep listening in, even when the audio stopped, because there's this thing that Andrew is trying to understand.And you almost feel like you're the sense of vulnerability. If it doesn't scare you away, then it makes you want to root.[00:32:40] Nathan:Yeah. And I personally love that style because I want to follow someone going on a journey and, and trying to accomplish something specific. But let's talk about the not just the book, but asking questions or in this case, stopping it, stop asking questions. What are the things that not even just specific to this job, what are the things that you listened to interview shows?And you're like, okay, here are the three things that I want to change or that I want to coach you on in the same way that I was coached on.[00:33:10] Andrew:Okay. So what I started to do is I go through my own transcripts. I mean, I had years of transcripts to see what worked and what didn't I already done that. So I said, I need to now add to it. And so I went back and looked at historical interviews, like when Barbara Walters interviewed Richard Nixon and got him so frustrated that he didn't want to ever talk to her again.Or when Oprah finally got to sit with Lance Armstrong, how did she do that? I think. You know, you know, let me pause on, on Oprah and Lance Armstrong. She got to interview him after he, he was basically caught cheating and he was about to come out and do it. Great. Get, I think the fact that she interviewed him, there's a lesson there for, for all of us who are interviewing, interviewing the top 10 interviews, I think of all time.And you go back to Wikipedia and look it up. You see art or interview podcast or interview, sorry, our news-based interviews. We as podcasters, keep thinking, how do I get enough in the can so that if I die tomorrow, there's enough interviews to last for a month or whatever, so that I can be consistent in the audience loved me.That's great. But I think we should also be open to what's going on in the world today. Let's go talk to that person today. If there's an artist who suddenly done something, we should go and ask to do an interview with them. If there's a creator, if there's someone. So for me, one of the top interviews that people still it's been years, people still come back and talk to me about is when Matt Mullenweg decided that he was gonna pull out Chris[00:34:35] Nathan:Pearson.[00:34:35] Andrew:Per Pearson.Pearson's, themes from WordPress. And I got to talk to both of them at the same time and I published it and it went all over the internet with all over the WordPress internet. So hundreds of different blog posts about it, eventually all the people in the WordPress world write a lot of blogs, but also it became news.And so we don't do enough of that.[00:34:57] Nathan:I remember that interview because I was in the WordPress community at that time. And I remember you saying like, wait, I'm in Skype and I have both of you in two different things and you pull it together and not to pull Ryan holiday into this too much, but that's where he ended up writing the book.Was it, he realized he was one of the only people who was talking to like both Peter teal and, who's the Gawker guy.Yeah. Anyway, people know, but, but being in the intersection of that, so you're saying find something that's relevant on the news[00:35:33] Andrew:Yeah. Nick Denton was the founder of Gawker. Yes. Find the things that are relevant right now. And when people are hot right now, and they know you and you have credibility in this space, they trust you more than they trust. Say the wall street journal, even right, where they don't know where's this going.I think that's, that's one thing. The other thing is I think we don't have enough of a story within interviews. If we're doing S if we're doing at Mixergy, my podcast and interview where we're telling someone's story, we want them to be somewhere where the audience is at the beginning and then to have done something or had something happen to them that sets them on their own little journey.And then we make this whole interview into this. Into this a hero's journey approach. So I think better when I have an actual company in mind, so, or a person in mind. So last week I was interviewing this guy, Rohit Rowan was a person who was working at SanDisk, had everything going right for him. His boss comes to him and says it, you're now a director, continue your work.But now more responsibilities he's elated. He goes back, home, comes back into the office. Things are good, does work. And then a couple of days later he's told, you know, we mean temporarily, right? And he goes, what do you mean? I thought I got, I got a promotion. No, this is temporary. While our director's out you're director of this department.And then you go back, he says, the very next day, he couldn't go back into the office. He sat in his car, just, he couldn't do it anymore. And so he decided at that point, he'd heard enough about entrepreneurship heard enough ideas. He had to go off on and do it himself. And so we did. And then through the successes and failures, we now have a story about someone who's doing something that we can relate to, that we aspire to be more.[00:37:13] Nathan:So, how do you, you, your researchers, how do you find that moment before you have someone on? Because so many people will be like, yes, let me tell you about my business today. And oh, you want to know about that? How'd, you know, you know, like, as you,[00:37:27] Andrew:Yeah,[00:37:28] Nathan:That hook in that moment? That actually is a catalyst in their own dream.[00:37:33] Andrew:It's tough. It's it takes hours of talking to the guest of, of looking online of hunting for that moment. And it takes a lot of acceptance when it doesn't happen. One of my interview coaches said, Andrew, be careful of not looking for the Batman moment. And I said, what do you mean? He goes, you're always looking for the one moment that changed everything in people's lives.Like when Batman's parents got shot. And from there, he went from being a regular boy to being a superhero. Who's going to cry, fight crime everywhere. His life doesn't really work that way. There aren't these one moments, usually the change, everything. So I try not to. Put too much pressure on any one moment, but there are these little moments that indicate a bigger thing that happened to us.And I look for those and I allow people to tell that without having it be the one and only thing that happened. So if Pharaoh, it, it wasn't that moment. It could've just been, you know what, every day I go into the office and things are boring. And I think I have to stop. What I look for is give me an example of a boring.Now he can tell me about a day, a day, where he's sitting at his desk and all he's doing is looking at his watch, looking at his watch and he has to take his watch, put it in his drawer so that he doesn't get too distracted by looking at his watch all day. Cause he hates it. Now was that the one moment that changed everything?It was one of many moments. It might've happened a year before he quit, but it's an indication. So when we're telling stories, we don't have to shove too much pressure into one moment, but I do think it helps to find that one moment that encapsulates their, why, why did they go on this journey? Why does someone who's in SanDisk decide he's going to be an entrepreneur?Why did someone who was a baseball player decide that he had to go and write a blog post? Why is it? What's the thing that then sends them off on this journey? It helps. And I would even say, if you can get that moment, it just helps to get the thing that they were doing before that we can relate to. So what's the thing that they did before.So anyway, we have two different types of interviews. One is the story-based interview where we tell a story of how someone achieved something great. And so that hero's journey is and approach. The other one is someone just wants to teach them. All you want to do is just pound into them for an hour. Give me another tip another tip another tip of how to do this.Like pound, pound, pound, pound pound. If you want the audience to listen. I think for there, it helps to have what I call the cult hook because I said, how do I, how do cults get people to listen to, to these people who are clearly whack jobs sometimes. And so studying one called I saw that what they did was they'd have a person up on stage who talked about how, you know, I used to really be a Boozer.If you came into my house, you would see that there'd be these empty six packs. I was so proud of leaving the empty six packs everywhere to show myself how much alcohol I can drink. My wife left me. And when she left me, she just told me that I hadn't amounted to anything in my life. And I was going nowhere.And I just said, get I here. Instead of appreciating that this was just like terrible. And I ran out of toilet paper and don't even get me started with what, what I did for that. And so you see someone who's worry worse off than you are on this path of life. And then something has. They discover whoever it is.That's the cult leader. And they say, now I've got this real estate firm I encouraged by, oh, by the way, all of you to come over and take a look at that at this, I couldn't believe it. My whole life. I wanted to buy a Tesla. I now have the Tesla S it's amazing. It's just so great. And I did it all because I changed the way I thought once I came in and I found this one book and the book told me, I mean, anyways, so what we try to do is we say, if you're going to have somebody come on to teach how they became a better blogger, let's not have them start over elevated where everything they do is so great that we can't relate, have them start off either relatable or worse.I couldn't write here's my grammar, mistakes. My teacher told. Right. And now what's the thing that they did. They pick them from where they were to where they are today. it's this real set of realizations. Now I want to go into that.Let's pound into them and see how many of those tips we can get. Let's learn that I want to go from where he was to where he is.[00:41:28] Nathan:Yeah, I liked that a lot. Cause my inclination would be like, okay, we're we're doing the, educational, tactical conversation. I'm going to facilitate it. Let's dive right in and let's get to the actionable stuff right away. So I like what you're saying of like, no, no, no. We need to, even though this is going to be 90% packed, full of actionable material, we need to dive in and set the stage first with the story and making it relatable.And I like it.[00:41:55] Andrew:Yeah,[00:41:55] Nathan:Oh, yeah. I was just, just in my own head for a second. Cause I say, ah, that makes sense a lot, so much so that I've had three different guests or listeners email me and say like, just don't say that makes sense as much would, now that I'm saying it on the show, I'll probably get more emails every time that I say it.Cause that's like my processing, like, oh, oh, that makes sense. As I'm thinking of the next question and all that, so[00:42:22] Andrew:I do something like that too. For me. It's IC,[00:42:25] Nathan:Everyone has to have something.[00:42:26] Andrew:I can't get rid of that and yeah.[00:42:28] Nathan:So what systems have you put in place on the research side so that you're getting this, are you doing pre-interviews forever? Yes. Are you having your[00:42:38] Andrew:Almost every single one, some of the best people in some of the best entrepreneurs on the planet, I'm surprised that they will spend an hour or do a pre-interview. And sometimes I'm too sheepish to say, I need an hour of your time and I need you to do a pre-interview. So instead of saying, I need you to do a pre-interview.I say, here's why people have done it. And I've paid for somebody to help make my guests better storytellers of their own stories. And truthfully people will go through that. Pre-interview even if they don't want to do an interview, they just need to get better at telling their story for their teams, their employees, their everyone.Right. and so I say that, and then they will take me up on the pre-interview and say, yes, I do want to do the pre-interview. and so what I try to do is I try to outline the story. Ahead of time in a set of questions. And then what we do is we scramble them up a little bit based on what we think people will tell us first and what will make them feel a little more comfortable.And then throughout the interview, I'll adjust it. So for example, no, one's going to care about the guest unless they have a challenge. No guest wants to come on and say, I'm going to tell you about what's what I really suck at or where I've really been challenged. If they do, they're going to give you a fake made up thing that they've told a million times to make themselves seem humble.So we don't ask that in the beginning. We don't even ask it in the middle. We save it till the very end. Now they've gotten some time with us. They've gotten some rapport, they trust us. Then we go into tell me about the challenges, what hasn't worked out for you. And we really let them know why tell people the higher purpose you want the audience to relate.You want them to believe you. You want them to see themselves in you, and to learn from you. We need. They tell us, and then I have it in my notes as the last section, but I use it throughout the interview. I sprinkle it. So the goal is to get the pieces that we want and in whatever order makes the most sense and then reshape it for the interview Day.[00:44:33] Nathan:So on the interview itself, you would, you would flip that and you know, okay, this is what I want to start with and, and dive in right[00:44:41] Andrew:Yup. Yup.[00:44:43] Nathan:Lose. They already told you about that. And so now, you[00:44:46] Andrew:Right,[00:44:46] Nathan:In and start with.[00:44:47] Andrew:Right. That helps. Now, if there's something I want to ask someone about that they're not comfortable with. One thing that I do is I, I tip them off. So Jason Calacanis invited me to go do, interviews with, with investors at one of his conferences. It was just a bunch of, investors. And I looked at this one guy, Jonathan tryst, and he looked really great.But he, what am I supposed to do? Ask him about what startups should do to run their businesses. He's never run a startup. His, he hadn't at that time had a successful exit. As far as I knew, like mega successful exit. He's just a really nice guy. You can tell he was going places, but that's it. And the money that he was investing came from his parents.So what is this rich parents giving their kids some money. Now he's going to tell everyone in the VC, in the startup and VC audience, how to live their lives. So I said, I'm either not going to address it, which I think most people are, or I have to find a way to address it where I'm not going to piss them off and have them just clam up on me and then go to Jason and go.This guy just is a terrible interviewer, which is not true. So what I decided to do was tip him off. I said, look, Jonathan, before we do this, before we start talking to the audience, I have to tell you, I saw it, that you don't have much of a track record as an investor. Your money came from your parents and you're not like a tech startup, like people here.If we don't talk about it, people who know it are going to think, oh, this guy, Jonathan, look, who's trying to pass him soft self off. I don't have to force it in here, but if you allow me to, I'd like to bring it up and let's talk about, and it goes, yeah, absolutely. If it's out there, I want to make sure that we address it and sure enough, we talked about it and he had a great answer.He said, no, this came from my parents. It's not my own money. I don't have as much experience as other people, but I took my parents' money. I invested it, fat parents and family and so on. We've had a good track record with it. And now have raised the second Fallon fund from outsiders who saw what I was able to do with the first one.And by the way, I may not have this mega exit as a startup investor, as a startup entrepreneur. But I did have this company that did okay. Not great. Here's what it did Here's what I learned And that's all informing me. And that's where I come from now. You've got someone talking about the, the, the thing that matters without pissing them off so much that they don't say anything else.And you feel like you feel superior as an interviewer. I got them. But in reality, you got nothing[00:46:57] Nathan:Right.[00:46:57] Andrew:Cares.[00:46:58] Nathan:I think that's a really hard line of talking about the things that are difficult and like the actual, maybe things that someone did wrong or lessons that they learned without just like barely dipping into it for a second. And I liked the format of tipping them off in like full transparency.So on this show, I had someone on who I really, really respect his name's Dickie Bush. He's one of the earlier episodes in this series and in it, he, okay. Yeah. So in that interview, one thing that I knew is that his, the first version of his course plagiarized text from another friend, Sean McCabe, actually Shaun's company edits is Podcast and all that.And I've known both of them for, for quite a while. I've known Sean for like, I dunno, six, seven years or something. And I was like, struggling with how to bring that up. And I wanted from the like founder, transparent journey, that sort of thing I wanted it brought up because I, I actually like, I'm happy to talk about like some pretty major things that I've screwed up and what I've learned from it.And I just think it makes a better conversation. And then from the interview side, I don't feel good, like doing an interview and not touching on that, but I didn't tip Dickey off to it. And I, that was one of the things that I've regretted that he gave a great answer. He talked about the lessons that he learned from it.It was really, really good, but I felt bad that I didn't set him up for the most success in like in setting up. And part of that, part of it is because even at the start of the interview, I was still wrestling with now, I'm not going to bring that up that, ah, maybe I should, it wouldn't be an authentic interview if I didn't like wrestling with that, I hadn't figured out my own, like made my own decision until we were in the middle of it.And so I didn't, I didn't set anybody up for success. And so it's an interesting line.[00:48:52] Andrew:It happens. And it seems like I'm now in the point of your transcript, where you, where you ask him, it's a 31 minutes into the interview. I think his response is great. He came in and he took responsibility for it. He says, yeah, that, that, that was a dramatic mistake, or a drastic mistake on my side and caught up in it.He wasn't the most articulate here and he'd repeated words. Like I, I, a couple of times, so I could see that he probably was uncomfortable with it. but I think his answer was great. I think, I believe that we all are broadcasting out, whether we know it or not, our intentions and where we're coming from, as some people are really good at faking it.And so I'm not going to talk about the outliers and some people are so uncomfortable that they're messing up the transmission, but for the most part almost. broadcasting our intentions. If you walk into that, Nathan, with the, I got to get him because he, he got one of my friends and I need him to finally get his comeuppance.He's going to pick up on that. And truthfully, it's such a small thing for a person like you who's, who's already a likable person. You have a lot to offer people, right? As far as like promotion and everything else, it will be forgiven, but it'll be picked up on, it's also something that people could pick up on, which is Nathan really want to know this thing.It's been bothering him for a while. And if you could, just, before you asked the question, say, where am I coming from with this? And know that the audience will mostly pick up on it. And obviously people are gonna like read in whatever they feel like, but trust that the vast majority of us understand, I think it'll work[00:50:21] Nathan:Yeah,[00:50:22] Andrew:You don't have to even tip. You don't have to tip off, but it does help. It, it definitely helps.[00:50:26] Nathan:It's interesting. I was watching an interview with, Jordan Peterson who wrote 12 rules for life. He's like a very controversial figure. And I was just often these controversies pass by, on Twitter and other places. And I realized like, oh, I don't understand them. And rather than jumping on one side or the other, at least try to like dive in a little bit and understand it.So watching this interview, and I can't remember, I think it was some major Canadian TV show or something, and that you would tell the interview was just trying to nail him it every possible chance, like whatever he said, just like dive in. And, so I think you're right, that you see the intention, like in that case, you would see the, the interview, his intention was specifically to try to trip him up in his words.And then in other cases where it's like, This is something that, you know, if you take the other approach, this is something that's been bothering me, or I want to talk about it. Like I genuinely want, you know, to ask or learn from this. It's a very different thing.[00:51:20] Andrew:I think people pick up on it. I remember you, you mentioned Seth Godin. I remember interviewing him when he wrote the book tribes back before people had online communities. And I didn't just say, okay. All our heroes, all the best entrepreneurs just run their businesses. Then don't run a tribe. I brought out books.I said, here's a book about Warren buffet. Here's the book by Sam Walton. The Walmart here's a book by Ted Turner became a multi-billionaire to creating all these, these media empires didn't have communities. They don't have tribes. And now you're telling me that in addition to my job, I also have to go and build out a tribe.It feels like, you know, an extra job. That just seems right for the social first. This just sounds right on social media and you could actually see. He's watching me as I'm saying it, and he's smiling, he's watching it because he's trying to read me, is this like what I get wrapped up? Is this going to be some kind of thing where some guy's going to try to be in the next Gawker media?Or is, is this a safe place? We're all doing that constantly. And then he also saw, okay, this is someone who really wants to understand this. And he's challenging me. I like a challenge. And you could see him smile with like, this is what I'm here for. And so I think when you come at it from a good point of view, people can see it and then you can go there and you can go there and you can go there and it will be shocking to you and them and the audience, how far you go. But when you're coming from that genuine place, they get, they get it.They want it.[00:52:44] Nathan:Yeah, that's good.I want to talk about longevity in like the online world. I think that so many people that I started following in say 2007, 2008, nine, and then I didn't start creating myself until 2011. most of them aren't around anymore. Like a lot of the big blogs, Yeah, just so many that I can think of.They're not around anymore. They're not doing this. You're at a point where like you started messaging in some form in what? 20, sorry, 2004 to somewhere in there and then interviews.[00:53:17] Andrew:Yeah, I keep saying 16. It's like, yeah. 2004 is when I started the interview started 2007 ish somewhere there. Give or take a year. yeah, long. I, I will say that there are parts of my work that I am burned out on right now. This year has been that, but I'm not on the interview. And the reason I'm not is because I do enjoy conversations.I hated them for a long time in my life because I just didn't know how to have them, how to have it make sense. I also didn't give myself permission to take the conversation where I wanted it to go. And it helps now to say, I can talk to anyone about anything. That's an opportunity that, that feels fun because I know how to do it.It's an opportunity to, it feels like, like, you know how everyone's so happy. You can go to YouTube and you could get the answer to anything. Well, I could go to anybody and I could get the answer to anything and talk about how they didn't have a customized to me, YouTube, not customized thing to me, I'm watching Gotham chess on YouTube.He's teaching me how to play chess, but he will not customize to the fact that every time I get into a car con defense, all the pieces like bunched over to my side. But if he and I did an interview, or if I do an interview with an tomorrow's entrepreneur, it's going to be about, here's the thing I'm trying to deal with.How did you get past that? Talk to me about what you're up to there.[00:54:31] Nathan:Yeah, that's definitely energizing. Okay. But what are the things that you're burnt out on? Because I think a lot of people are seeing that burnout. And so I guess first, what are you burned out on? And then second, we can go from there into like, what are you changing and how are you managing.[00:54:46] Andrew:I'm burned out on parts of the business behind, behind Mixergy I'm burned out on. I was aspiring to like unbelievable greatness with the, with the course part of it, with the courses, it didn't get there and I'm tired of trying to make it into this thing. That's going to be super big. I'm tired of that.[00:55:10] Nathan:His greatness there, like linda.com? Like what, what was that?[00:55:15] Andrew:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. She was one of my first interviewees and, and so yeah, I saw the model there and I am frustrated that I didn't get to that and I, I don't have a beat myself up type a perso
Brooksie Wells is amplifying female voices over 50, including her own. She and I met in a thing called Music Marketing Method. I've mentioned Music Marketing Method on the podcast before. It's a program designed to help musicians find our fan base, grow our audience and make a consistent income with our creativity. Learn more about Music Marketing Method Brooksie has had a rich music career. She has a new release called Stops Time, which you can find on all the popular digital platforms. Her first big break came when she was signed by a big name with Warner Chappell at the tender age of 19. That big name was Bobby Darin. Unfortunately Darin died before Brooksie's career had any momentum. Darin's passing left Brooksie without a sponsor and thus her big break came to a sudden end. This did not stop Brooksie from continued work in music. She took a detour into the world of children's music and then into raising a family. She eventually returned to the world of adult pop music starting a new chapter in her career. In this episode we talk about her early days in music, managing tough circumstance, how she's adapting to the ever changing music business and where she plans to move next. Brooksie refers to herself as a little old lady, but she has as much drive as any young artist I've spoken with on the podcast. She has a wealth of experience and a big personality on her side. These character traits along with acting as co-host for a podcast called She's Not Done Yet are helping Brooksie amplify voices of over 50, including her own. You can find Brooksie's work at BrooksieWells.com. This was a really fun conversation. Hope you enjoy as much as I did. Support the Unstarving Musician The Unstarving Musician exists solely through the generosity of its listeners, readers, and viewers. Learn how you can offer your support. Visit our Crowd Sponsor page Mentioned in this Episode BrooksieWells.com Album review for In My Pocket, by Alan Cackett She's Not Done Yet podcast Related Episodes Lynz Crichton's Music Marketing Method (Ep 215) Songwriting with a Deadline–Lynz Crichton (Ep 49) Lynz Crichton on Building a Clan, Learning the Business, Songwriting, and Recording (Ep 14) Cracking the codes of social media and playlists – JJ Lovegrove (Ep 214) This episode was powered by Music Marketing Method, a program for indie musicians looking to grow their music career but don't know. Learn more! This episode was powered by Podcast Startup, helping new podcasters overcome the obstacles that stem from tech, marketing, editing and more. Learn More about Podcast Startup! Resources The Unstarving Musician's Guide to Getting Paid Gigs, by Robonzo No Booker, No Bouncer, No Bartender: How I Made $25K On A 2-Month House Concert Tour, by Shannon Curtis Bandzoogle – The all-in-one platform that makes it easy to build a beautiful website for your music ConvertKit for Musicians More Resources for musicians Pardon the Interruption (Disclosure) Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means I make a small commission, at no extra charge to you, if you purchase using those links. Thanks for your support! Visit UnstarvingMusician.com/Podcasts for related links, episode transcripts and past guests. Sign up for the Unstarving Musician email newsletter at UnstarvingMusician.com Stay in touch! @RobonzoDrummer on Twitter and Instagram @UnstarvingMusician on Facebook and YouTube
Whether you're a newbie at online business or you've been around for a few years, email marketing can be super intimidating. However, it's something you NEED to figure out and prioritize because email is by far your #1 most critical element if you have any type of online business (or really, a business of ANY kind)! But what do you even say to your list? How do you convert a subscriber into a sale? How often should you send emails? How do you keep your content interesting and inspire people to read it, instead of it being a major snoozefest that makes your subscribers never want to open another email from you again? The secret is that there is actually a formula you can follow to increase the effectiveness of your copywriting--all while humanizing people to be more than just a 'lead' or a 'subscriber'. If you understand why you're writing what you're writing and who you're writing to, it will not only cut down on the time it takes you to write (goodbye staring at a blank page!), but your results will be infinitely better then shooting in the dark when it comes to building community and conversions (hello income and impact!). For example, one of the tips we'll be sharing with you today is how to use a color-coded personality system to not only create diversity and variance in your emails, but to speak directly to different personality types so everyone on your list feels seen and understood. This system is GOLD! My guest today is Tarzan Kay, a launch strategist and copywriter who teaches women (and a few good men) how to sell bigger, so they can serve bigger. Tarzan is a master of email marketing and former copywriter-for-hire (working with people like Amy Porterfield) who specializes in fun-to-read, more-addictive-than-Game-of-Thrones email copy. She also helps freelancers attract better clients who'll reach deeper into their pockets to pay for top-quality services–also using the power of email, duh! What you'll learn in this episode: Why being the best and making all the money isn't the most important thing for your business What it's like to be the primary breadwinner for your family as a woman living in a patriarchal society while your partner is a stay-at-home-dad The 2 key things Tarzan did to earn over $200K in just her second year of business How to write effective emails that convert using Tarzan's approach to color-coded personality (based on the DiSC personality assessment–and we even use some Game of Thrones characters to make it more interesting!) How many emails should you send during a launch? Plus the importance of pre-launch emails, her unique '29-minutes-til-close' email, and the post-promotion survey Subscribe and Review Thanks so much for joining me this week. If you liked what you heard, please leave an honest review for The Success with Soul Podcast on Apple Podcasts so we can improve and better serve you in the future. Plus, you could be featured on a future episode during our listener spotlights. Ratings and reviews are extremely helpful and greatly appreciated! They do matter in the rankings of the show, and I read each and every one of them. And finally, don't forget to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts to get automatic updates. My goal for this podcast is to inspire those who seek flexibility and freedom in their lives by making something happen with holistic, soulful, step-by-step strategies from me and other experts. Links + Resources Mentioned in this Episode: Joanna Wiebe's Copyhackers If you love the idea of blogging but have no idea what you even want to blog about, take our free quiz to find out what kind of blog you should start! Tarzan's approach to color-coded personality and how it applies to email marketing Get a free Convert Kit email account up to 1,000 subscribers! Get a free 30-day trial of ActiveCampaign, my favorite email service provider, here! Breathwork with Kathleen Oh The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferris Get Tarzan's Email Promo Sequence Swipe Copy here for free! Follow Tarzan on Instagram @tarzan_kay Check out our blog post Email Marketing 101 for Beginners + Bloggers Follow me on Instagram @katekordsmeier and @rootandrevel More Ways to Enjoy Success with Soul Download a transcript of this episode Download on Apple Podcasts Email me new episodes Don't forget to join our free Success With Soul Facebook community for follow-up conversations about the podcast episodes and where I also often go live to answer your burning questions. Hangout with like-minded bloggers and heart-centered online business owners exchanging priceless feedback, encouragement, and other golden insights from the trenches. EPISODE CREDITS: Produced by Danny Ozment at https://emeraldcitypro.com
Get ready for some down-to-earth, practical advice from power podcaster Pat Flynn on this week's episode of Guy Kawasaki's Remarkable People podcast! Pat Flynn is a father, husband, and entrepreneur who lives and works in San Diego, CA. He owns several successful online businesses and is a professional blogger, keynote speaker, Wall Street Journal bestselling author, and host of the Smart Passive Income and AskPat podcasts, which have earned a combined total of over 70 million downloads, multiple awards, and featured in publications such as The New York Times and Forbes. He is also an advisor to ConvertKit, LeadPages, Teachable, and other companies in the digital marketing arena.
Do you have a virtual or distributed team? Have you run into any issues with leading and managing that team? In this episode, I'm going to share with you our experiences as a global distributed team and offer 5 best practices for a successful and happy team. Educate yourself Consider time zones and holidays Provide brief and clear communication Advance preparation for meetings Understand cultural norms *** Are you interested in starting or growing a podcast AND business with the support of my team and a community of experienced podcasters? Join my Podcaster Pod. You get... Full access to my 8-module podcasting course taking you from idea to launch and everything in between. Equipment and tech, Recording and publishing. Scripts and templates. Everything! Access to me, my team, and a group of experienced podcasters through a private Slack channel Monthly Q&A calls with me and the other Podcaster Pod members. Quarterly Expert Calls Access to me and my network –– meaning I will introduce you to other influencers and people who can help you where it makes sense. Consider joining my new membership site for $27/month. Go to https://dannyozment.com/pod Use code JOINPODPOD to get a 1-month free trial. *** Do you have a website for your business or personal brand or are you building one? If so, then you need WPX hosting. I use WPX for all of my sites and so do many of our clients. For $25/month, WPX's Business Plan gives you Hosting for 5 Websites 10 GB Storage 100 GB Bandwidth Free SSL certificates The WPX Cloud Content Delivery Network They average around 30 second support response time 24/7/365 around the world Provide free unlimited site migration from any host to WPX, usually completed within 24 hours And they are fast because they never overload servers with hosting accounts, unlike so-called 'cheap' hosting which crumbles under any traffic load Sign up for the WPX Business Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/wpx *** Are you building an email list for your business or personal brand? If so, then you need ConvertKit. I use ConvertKit for my list and so do most of our clients. For $29/month, ConvertKit's Creator Plan manages up to 1,000 subscribers Provides unlimited landing pages & forms Sends email broadcasts Provides the ability to Sell digital products & subscriptions Has super fast Email support AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... Gives you Free migration from another tool AND Automated funnels & sequences Get a free 14-day trial of the Creator Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/convertkit *** My Recommended Resources - https://dannyozment.com/resources
In a world where numbers matter, it can feel discouraging comparing yourself to influencers with hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. When you're just starting out, the path to online influence can feel like an uphill climb with a destination that's far out of reach. But to become a successful creator, is it necessary to amass a giant following? There's a difference between being an influencer and an independent creator. One caters to a mass crowd while the other cultivates community. One relies on an app while the other builds something bigger. While there are pros and cons to each category, understanding the differences can help you shift priorities and reconsider your long-term creator goals. In this episode, Charli, Haley, and Miguel discuss a recent article outlining the difference between influencers and independent creators and why the latter may have a surprising advantage. “The idea is not just to feed the social media sites, but to be building an online hub, a primary place for yourself. And you use the social media sites to get people to that hub.” ~ @charliprangleyMain takeaways [04:30] The first pillar of becoming an independent creator is owning your audience. This means you can reach them regardless of which platform they prefer. [05:57] Owning your audience is critical because your email list subscribers are more likely to be true fans and convert than your casual Instagram followers. [14:34] The second pillar is going niche. When you have fewer followers that are hyper-engaged, it allows you to explore a niche. You lose the pressure of grabbing the attention of a mass crowd and watering down your creativity. [21:20] The third pillar is cultivating communities over audiences. Communities interact amongst each other versus focusing all of their attention on the creator. When followers feel like they're part of a community, they're more likely to be true fans. [30:01] The fourth and final pillar is creating a self-sustaining community. Influencers are only as relevant as their last post. Connect with our hosts Charli Prangley Miguel Pou Haley Janicek Links Watch The Future Belongs to Creators on YouTube Move over, Instagram influencers: Welcome to the era of the independent creator CharliMarie TV The Future Belongs to Creators Episode 105: Influencers vs Creators Instagram Patreon Facebook Substack My Favorite Murder Clubhouse Barrett Brooks Haley Chamberlain The Future Belongs to Creators Episode 131: Getting off the Content Hamster Wheel Inside Marketing Design Podcast The Future Belongs to Creators Episode 137: The Realities of Starting a Second YouTube Channel From Scratch Creator Sessions Joy Oladokun: Using Songwriting to Navigate Self-Identity and Anxiety Got a story to tell on The Future Belongs to Creators podcast?We'd love to have you on the show to talk about successes or failures you've experienced on your creator journey. Submit your story here!Start building your audience for freeWith ConvertKit landing pages, you can build a beautiful page for your project in just a few minutes. Choose colors, add photos, build a custom opt-in form, and add your copy. All without writing any code! Check out landingpages.new to get started.Stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Twitter Facebook Instagram
Rachel Ngom is our guest for the 263rd episode of The Copywriter Club podcast. Rachel is a Pinterest Strategist and Expert who teaches her clients how to utilize Pinterest to build their pipeline of leads. She plans to retire by 40 and has made investments and an action plan to make it happen. Here's how the conversation breaks down: How Africa changed Rachel's life for the better. How Rachel built a 6-figure business with -$400 and a new baby. The reality of selling on social media and the pivots that come along the way. Getting 1.8 million people to find your blog by utilizing Pinterest. Growing your list to 20k and having to pivot again and again. Living the digital nomad lifestyle while running multiple successful businesses. How to make investments from a profitable business. Why you absolutely need to put yourself in uncomfortable positions repeatedly. Building the courage to do the basic things in life when you're in a different country and culture. How to visualize your success and take action. Taking your life lessons and translating them into your current business and lifestyle. Consistency. Is it really necessary? The secret to building up personal discipline and the perfect morning routine. How to do with what you have. Why everyone can and should be using Pinterest as a lead generation tool and SEO platform. Mistakes you could be making on Pinterest and how to fix them. The systems and processes needed to run a multiple 6-figure business. Why you need to start teaching duplication with your team. How to shift your mindset around failure. The right time to invest in other businesses, so you can set yourself up to retire young. How to know an idea is worth pursuing. If you need inspiration around investments, retiring, or where your next lead is coming from, this is the episode to tune into. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Kira's website Rob's website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Rachel's website Ask by Ryan Levesque Pinterest Cheatsheet Full Transcript: Kira: Build the business, scale the business, run the business on autopilot, and retire by 40. No biggie. That's a dream for many business owners. But how does it actually happen? What steps or events need to take place to make it a reality? Well, we'll dive into all the steps in today's 263rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast with Rachel Ngom. Rachel is a Pinterest marketer and serial entrepreneur. During this interview, we talk about how to use Pinterest for lead generation, how to pivot your business, and how to get really uncomfortable in your life and business. I'm joined today by my co-host and Think Tank alumni member, Annie Bacher. Annie, thank you so much for co-hosting with me today. Can you just kick it off with just a quick intro, if anyone hasn't heard your interview on the podcast which is episode 218. So we can all check out, revisit your interview on the podcast. But can you just provide a quick intro? Who are you, Annie? Who are you? Annie: Thanks, Kira. So I'm Annie. I am a B2B SaaS copywriter. And I am obsessed with using copy to help tech companies make the internet a friendlier and more human sounding place. Kira: All right. Well, thanks for joining me today. And before we dive in, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by the Think Tank. Annie as a former member of the Think Tank, can you share just what type of impact the mastermind had on your business and your life? Annie: Oh, where to start? Well, I didn't call myself a B2B SaaS copywriter before I joined the Think Tank. I didn't have a lot of focus, and I honestly didn't even know it was possible for me. So since being in the Think Tank for a year, I hit six figures in my business, I started building a team, and I've been working with clients I never would have dreamed I could work with like ConvertKit,
The offsite is a staple – for individual teams, departments or even entire companies. A chance for everyone to get OOO, bond and get some deep work done. But today, as more and more teams are moving to hybrid or remote working, are they really necessary? Join host, Christine Dela Rosa and debaters Marshall Walker Lee and Shannon Winter and find out if your distributed team really needs to meet IRL. In this episode, you'll hear from team builder Anne Thornley-Brown on why setting goals for offsites is crucial, and Unsplash's CEO Mikael Cho shares the story of building his two companies at in-person offsites. ConvertKit's Charli Prangley defends the trust that can only be built at in-person offsites; while Trello's Leah Ryder takes us into the wonderful world of virtual retreats. For the transcript and downloadable takeaways, visit https://www.atlassian.com/blog/podcast/work-check.
Looking to pursue motion design side projects but unsure how to find balance with your day job? In today's episode Charli Marie explains how side projects can help motion designers to improve their craft and process. About Charli Marie Charli Marie is a Youtuber, podcast host and Creative Director at email marketing company ConvertKit. Throughout her working career, Charli has always pursued some side projects outside of her 9-5 role. Currently she creates weekly content on her YouTube channel and podcast, Design Life, sharing insights into life as a professional designer alongside tutorials and advice on design tools and concepts. Read the full shownotes
So you want to quit your job - but you don't have the time or money to start your dream business yet. That's where runway revenue comes in! Let's talk about how to create runway revenue to build another biz. Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicaco
Nick deWilde is a Product Marketing Principal at Guild Education. Guild is a fast-growing startup that partners with Fortune 500 employers. Guild unlocks opportunities for America's workforce via education and upskilling.Nick also runs his newsletter, The Jungle Gym. The Jungle Gym helps readers build a more fulfilling career that integrates work and life. Before working at Guild, Nick earned his MBA from Stanford Business School, and was a Managing Partner at Tradecraft.Nick and I talk about his relationship with Twitter, and how social media can both serve you, and be a challenge. We talk about individual brands and growing a platform. Nick also shares his thoughts about marketing yourself as an individual, and we discuss how growing an audience plays into your career.In this episode, you'll learn: Building an audience while working full-time Three reasons people start newsletters What to do when your follower count hits a plateau Links & Resources Morning Brew Fastly Joseph Henrich, The Secret of Our Success Julian Shapiro Sahil Bloom Dickie Bush Medium Tiago Forte Building a Second Brain David Perell Write of Passage Tradecraft Guild Hacker news John Lee Dumas Packy McCormick Mario Gabriele Seth Godin Rachel Carlson On Deck Gong Matt Ragland Charli Prangley The Nathan Barry Show, featuring Kimberly Brooks Harry Stebbings The Twenty Minute VC Isa Adney Liz Fosslien, No Hard Feelings: The Secret Power of Embracing Emotions at Work Discord Reddit Pallet Craft + Commerce ConvertKit Enough Ryan Holiday James Clear Marie Forleo Ramit Sethi Nick deWilde's Links Follow Nick on Twitter Nick's newsletter, The Jungle Gym To tweet, or not to tweet Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Nick:I've tried to do things in my writing where my employer benefits from them. I talk about work a lot, and whenever I talk about hiring, I mention Gild is hiring. There are things I do to just try to make sure that it still feels worth the company's while.[00:00:25] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to Nick deWilde, who writes a popular newsletter called The Jungle Gym. He's got a background in product and growth, and all these things from the startup world. I just love the approach that he's taken to writing these days.We talk about growing as newsletter. We talk about his interesting relationship with Twitter and social media. How it can really serve you and be this great thing, and then it can also be challenging. Maybe you're spending too much time on it, or time on it in a way that's not actually serving you or benefiting you.We talk about the rise of individual brands being used to grow a platform. It's something I've been thinking a lot about, watching Morning Brew and Fastly, and some of these other companies do it. It's just interesting whether you're marketing as a company or an individual. It's just a good conversation. We also talk about audience, and just how that plays into your career.He recently made the switch from a full-time role, to doing more audience-based business stuff. He was just in the middle of that journey. So, it's a fun place and time to catch up in the conversation.Nick, welcome to the show.[00:01:33] Nick:Hey, thanks for having me, Nathan.[00:01:35] Nathan:I want to start on this article you have, that I like a lot, called, “To tweet, or not to tweet,” That got you ahead. I also happened to go to the Shakespeare festival recently, and watched them do “The Complete Works of Shakespeare, Abridged.”So, you know, I could probably pull off a good, to[00:01:50] Nick:Nice.[00:01:51] Nathan:Be or not to be speech right now. It's in my head because I think about all the wonderful things that Twitter and an audience beyond that does for me. Then also the negative sides of it. So maybe we dive into that, but I'd also love to hear what sparked you diving in and building an audience.[00:02:11] Nick:Yeah, I'm so conflicted on Twitter, and audience building in general. Like anything, I imagine there's a fair number of people who you talked to, who are in the writing community, who feel that way. On the one hand, Twitter does so many things for me. Especially over the past couple of years.As we've been in lockdown, lives have moved online. I have met and made friends with so many amazing people through Twitter that I wouldn't have met otherwise. Same with the newsletter, but Twitter is a little bit easier to build those relationships.Twitter has definitely helped grow my bank account. So, there are clearly things that being online and participating in the online world really does for you that are valuable.I think, building an audience is super valuable.When I think about the future of work, and what will be automated and what won't be, I really think that human beings, our greatest strength that is the hardest to copy is our ability to influence other people. This really comes from some of the thinking of author Joseph Heinrich, who looked at what is the secret of human success.It's cultural learning. It's our ability to essentially watch what other people do, and mimic them. We're really good at detecting what is a real human and what's not, and who's someone prestigious that we should learn from, and who isn't.I think that audience building is super valuable. So, even though I don't love the activity of building an audience, I have gotten a lot of value out of it, and I see the value in it. So, I very much come from a conflicted spot in this. I'm very impressed by people like Julian, and Sahil, and Dickie Bush, who have grown amazing audiences.Some days I aspire to 10X my audience, and some days I'm just like, please let me be a monk and live in seclusion.[00:04:20] Nathan:Well? Okay. So I had a Twitter thread last week that I did It was on company culture for remote teams, and I've had some that like take off and do well before, but this was like 1300 retweets, like almost a million impressions, a level of taking off. And on one hand I was like, this is amazing.And the other, I like checked the notifications and the replies so many times, and it was fascinating watching it go from like my circle to the next circle, out to the next circle out. And like, we're still in like positive replies, happy. Oh, build on it, refine it. And then like the one circle past that, which it took about, let's say 12 to 18 hours to get to[00:05:06] Nick:Yeah[00:05:06] Nathan:And that was the. This guy's an idiot. I'd never want to work at that company. you know, like all like the, the haters and the non from there, and then it like dies out and this is weird arc of his, we should graph it, but it just made me think of, is this something that I want to do and want, had I added thousands of Twitter followers?I think I could recreate it. Like maybe one in five attempts would like hit that big. Who knows. but I wrestle with the exact question of like, do I want this?[00:05:36] Nick:You and you're, you're just, you're like jacked up on dopamine. You're like, you're, you're sort of you're you, you, you start just imagining all the good things that will come from this. I should be doing this all the time. Like, you know, I, I mean, I think it's, it's sort of pre progressive problems, right?Like, like there's, there's the problem of like having a smaller audience and like putting something out into the ether and then, this, this kind of, getting no response, right. That, that, that's the first thing that, that actually like most people kind of deal with. Right. And, and, and that's, that's a weird thing because it's like, it's like, you're, you're then judging the quality of your ideas based on the ability of, based on basically your, your audience's response and, and realizing like, you're not actually talking to your audience, you're talking to.Subsection that Twitter has decided that you can talk to at that specific point in time. And so, and then you're basically judging your own ideas based off that. And if, if your idea is like, I think, I think when you hit a certain bar of audience, like you can, you can share ideas that are, pretty complex and nuanced and like you'll, you'll find some, some sort of interest for it and it has a potential to take off, but like there there's stuff where if it's kind of interesting and nuanced there, isn't really kind of a built in audience for it.And people don't really have the time to like always dig in and kind of engage and try to like, find what's at the kernel of, it's why I like newsletters a lot more than I like tweeting. But, but, but, but I think, I think what you're, you know, then there's, there's, there's the problem where once you get big enough, like you're now being your ideas are being put in front of a bunch of people who like you didn't intend them for.And those people for some reason have decided to invite into their lives, like conflict with strangers on the internet, because[00:07:19] Nathan:That's like a primary goal,[00:07:21] Nick:Right, right. It's like, it's it. It's what gives them a great day. Right. And, and, and so, so yeah, it's, it's such a weird thing. And so I, like, I mean, I, I think about this with like, I equate Twitter, often to, to kind of, like refined sugar, right.With refined sugar, right. It's it's, it's what we call supernormal stimuli. Right. It, it, it, or super, super normal stimulus. and, and what that is, is basically something that like replaces some natural, like evolutionary desire you have with something kind of artificial that just sends your brain on like overdrive seeking that thing, seeking that thing over and over.And, and that is. That's what Twitter is. It's, it's, it's refined status instead of refined sugar. And that refined status is like, it just, it takes this thing that you normally do, which is like seek, prestige from your, your tribal group, which was a really good thing to do to make sure that you, you know, ate a good meal.And it, and it puts that into, into this crazy overdrive and it like, it centers your brain around it, and it's, it's such a, it's a really powerful thing. And so I, you know, again, right, it's like, there's all these great gifts that come from Twitter and then there's, then there are all these drawbacks and it's, it's almost like perfect equilibrium of, should you do it or should you not?And I don't begrudge anyone either way for their decision.[00:08:46] Nathan:What I always wonder is if I could only have the benefits, like, is there a way let's say that you don't doom scroll Twitter with the latest news and whatever's going wrong, or whatever, latest Twitter fight there is. Maybe you do in a separate app publish these like smart tweets or brilliant threads that are going to get all this attention.And you do one of those every day, but then like you jump in an hour later and respond to a bunch of comments and then like the next day you do it again for 30 minutes and then like, that's it. And you just bat, like, there is this world where you could own Twitter rather than Twitter owning you, but like, are you capable of it?Do you have the self-discipline to pull that off?[00:09:33] Nick:Totally. And, and I, and I think, I think like, you know, I I've talked, I think Julian about this and I think he uses like tweet deck for it. And I think, I think there are ways you can do it. Right. I like for awhile, I was good at like, I would tweet in the morning and then I would like uninstalled the app off my phone.So I wouldn't look at it. and like, there are things that you can do. it's just, it's just really hard because I think to some degree what Twitter, rewards, especially when, when you're on the audience building path. Right. I think when you're like, tens of thousand or hundreds of thousands of followers, you, you actually have a lot more leeway to do what you want.Because, because like, you're just, it's likely that your tweets will work, but like when you're building your ions, there's, there's something that like, it's sort of like, there's a Turing test that's happening, right. People are sort of looking, are you an engaged human being? Cause I I've I've I knew some people who sort of, they, they schedule and preplan all their tweets and like, and to some degree they, they just, they don't hit, they don't work because it doesn't feel real time.They're responding in real time. So like[00:10:35] Nathan:Out of pace. You're out of touch with what's happening with.[00:10:38] Nick:Exactly And so, and so it's, it's sort of, Twitter's kind of like looking for these weird signs of life. So I think it's, I think it's doable. There, there must be some way to do this, but, it's tough. I think the, the other, the other thing that Twitter did to me, that I, disliked is, it makes me feel like my relationships are very transactional because you have these likes retweets, and like these, these, Very clear, like signals of engagement.You, you start to like, or I start to like, to like keep score. Right. And, and I, and I don't, I like, I don't do that anywhere else in life. I think a good, like obviously good relationships tend to start out transactional and then like, they, you kind of forget what the transactions are and like that, that's what creates a close friendship where like, look like you may have paid from the last time I paid for you this time.It doesn't really matter anymore because we transacted so many times, but, but Twitter, for some reason, the score always feels out there. And, and so that was, that's really been like a little bit of a red flag to me. And I, I I try to keep a generous mindset and a generous spirit on Twitter, but I find it harder than in real life.[00:11:52] Nathan:That makes sense to me. So maybe taking a step back, and maybe we'll wrestle with some of these, like to grow an audience or not to grow an audience questions[00:12:00] Nick:Sure[00:12:02] Nathan:What was the thing that, sparked for you? I'm like, I'm going to go start a sub stack. I'm going to actively work to build an audience.[00:12:10] Nick:Yeah, I, so I was writing on, on medium starting in like 2013, maybe. Um and and really got a lot out of it. I, I started my career out as a, as a screenwriter, so I was planning to go into the TV industry and like, and, and for, you know, for, for many reasons, found that to be, a path where like, you didn't really control your destiny.I saw I met lots of, you know, mid thirties, you know, production assistants who were slightly bitter. And then, so I just kind of realized like, this, this wasn't exactly a good path, for me. And so, but I, I wanted to kind of keep that like, that creativity, that like interaction with an audience, I think, you know, it, it was.And found that in writing. And so And so started publishing on medium. Um we was a great experience in terms of how quick it was to publish, but like the distribution of publishing a medium sucks, right? Like, you're you you, you publish ones and then like you spam all your friends and like, you're, you're just, you're working super hard to like push this thing and promote it.And I was like, there's gotta be some way that's a little bit easier. and so I actually ended up in, I think I took, I took Tiago Forte is building a second brain course that kind of like, magically grandfathered me in somehow to like David Pearl's first um uh cohort or Write of Passage, which was awesome And like, I would say, like, I took a lot out of that, but like the biggest thing was, was like start a newsletter. and so basically I started out, I think I started out with a review even. but but anyway like started publishing. Opted in when I knew onto the email list, which I'm sure they, they may or may not appreciate it, but this is before there were tons of sales tax out.And so I felt like it wasn't, it wasn't that crazy. I probably wouldn't have done that in like 20, 20, but, but w really wanted like a way to like, continually kind of interact with my audience without having to worry about like, you know, just, just kind of constantly doing the heavy promotion work.Um now that's because I now you know posts just as a part of medium but but at least there's those sort of a built in audience that kind of grows over time that you kind of keep with you. and, and so. doing that, it was kind of it's kind of a mix of for work and for life.I, I was, at the time, the managing partner of a, of a, uh immersive education program called Tradecraft. And like we, we would help people make sort of complex career transitions into the startup world. And and so a lot of what I was writing was kind of about that. It was about careers. but it also tied in with, with kind of deep interests.It was sort of why I took the role in the first place. and, and what I found when I, when I moved from Tradecraft over to Guild was like that kind of nicely traveled with me. and, and I think there's, there's something, something really nice about a newsletter, being a kind of an appendage to your career, where, like it expands your professional identity to a certain degree.You, you can become a little bit more than just your job, especially working for, like, like a single individual company, especially if you're, if, if the company is larger you, have to deal with a lot of like coordination challenges. there there's a lot of bureaucracy that happens at a company And one of the nice things about having a newsletter is you are in charge of it. It's like you're the CEO of it. the product ships, when you choose to ship it and you have complete editorial say over it, and the distribution that you put into it is what you get out of it. And and there's something really nice about that.It helped me kind of identify as a person who who, ships a lot, even when, sometimes, you know, you know, you you have to work on something at at work that takes a long time.[00:16:12] Nathan:Have you found a dress core even a strong correlation between the effort that you put in to your newsletter and your audience growth and the results that you get out, or does it feel like a more tenuous connection?[00:16:24] Nick:I think, I think there is a pretty good, like w w when I think a post is going to really hit it usually does and so I would say like, like when I put effort into, into writing something really good, I think usually it meets it meets or exceeds my expectations. And when, and when I feel like something is, I'm kind of honing in on, on a, on a post, like usually I get that too.So I think what, what can also happen. You know, sometimes you post something to hacker news and it turns out it's somehow on the front page and like that your audience growth spikes, or like you get featured in someone else's newsletter and your audience grows spikes. And like, there there's a lot of activities that like, you know, I'm not doing directly to promote it, but but it just sort of, um you know, happens in a nice way.And so that's happened, you know, more than a few times and like, that's a pretty neat thing, but like, I think to some degree that comes from just trying a lot of different things and then like, there's sort of like a, a second order effect of some of those things really, you know, hitting it off.[00:17:28] Nathan:Yeah, I think that's that's right. I knew in the early days of starting my newsletter, I felt a strong correlation between what I was working on and like the effort that I put in and the results that I got out, been been interested well at the time I do like a really epic blog post where I put of effort, you know, we're kind of the, for, you know, off and on for weeks or months and like really a hundred and get friends to read it, all of that.Those pretty much always do really well. But what I'm surprised by is sometimes the throwaway posts really, throwing it. Like, it's a simple idea that you flushed out into a post and you were. Hey, it's Tuesday. I got to get something out. Like it's sort of in that[00:18:09] Nick:Totally[00:18:09] Nathan:Sometimes those really hit.Sometimes they actually resonate. Have you had some of those that were like easy easy ones ones that hit?[00:18:18] Nick:So the, publishing cadence is I do, I do two, two posts a month and one a and it used to be, it used to be one post a month. And then I basically separated out into two. Cause I realized like it was too much to kind of condense into, into one post. And like, I wasn't getting the. The, as many eyeballs on like the second half, so decide to pull them apart.One is kind of one big essay. And the second is a, is is of like a, a But I think of it as like, as like I do pretty deep them. So it's actually of like a, here's what this is about. And a little bit more like, here's what this made me think about.And And, the, the essay is, I always spend a good amount of time on them. or at least this year I've spent a good amount time[00:19:05] Nathan:On all of them two hours, 20 hours, 200 hours?[00:19:11] Nick:2020 is probably probably closest. a really slow writer. And so, and so, like, I, I do, I mean, I like like write and like re-edit the first paragraph, 20 onto the next And likeI don't either Yeah The the the the the, the, top of the like, it's like a then like the last paragraph gets like one glance and I'm like, God, get this thing from Um don't and I I that is the wrong thing to do, yet, somehow I do that anyway. but, but, so, so those, those posts, they tend to get, of. You know, time and care. and then what'll happen is sometimes the, the ones that are like the link roundups, like will, will be very spiky.And I I'll spend, you know, that's, that's a little bit more like a three hour thing, um or four hours or something like that. and yeah, so, and then, and then I had, I had a, a, something that I was doing when I was interviewing folks, I call it the key ring where it was like a pretty structured interview that I would do where I asked the same questions over and over again.That was, that was fun. It, it, it started taking a long time to like do the back and forth. And so I'm putting that on pause for the moment. I may pick it back up again. those are fun just cause you can, you can feature someone that, that you like and get a chance to just and hang out It's kinda like[00:20:40] Nathan:Yeah. Those are always interesting to me. Cause I, I think about that on this podcast of asking the same questions, which I know New, I riff on the questions too or elementBut if you did, in theory, if you're like, did you grow from a hundred subscribers to a thousand subscribers in your newsletter?And you asked that to every single person, then you could compile that over 40 episodes or 40 newsletters or whatever. like, Hey, here's a guide on how to do it. And like, I pulled it from a whole bunch of sources. So that part of like standardized questions intrigues me. don't love it the live, know, version of a or newsletter where it's like, okay, it's too formulaic.People have done super well with us formulaic, like, John Lee Dumas, who did the Podcast entrepreneur on fire. Like he went all out. He was like, this will be 20 minute episodes, we're going to of release one a day, seven days a week and like works for him. I have no desire to do that, you[00:21:36] Nick:Totally[00:21:38] Nathan:Yeah, I don't know. you think about the repurposing side of content like that, or is it more just about the, the upfront.[00:21:45] Nick:I'm at repurposing and, and I, it's something that I, have like a psychological hangup about it. Like I always kind of feel like I need to be just like moving on to the next thing. The next thing, like I've, I've tried like going back and like, be like, oh, I should mind this thing for some, some tweets.And it always feels weird to do. And like, I want to write my Roundup, but I think, I think what I've just recognized as. Another reason why I write the newsletter is like, I want an excuse to have interesting new thoughts each month. I want essentially a performance, right. Where like, we're like, there is a moment where like, if I, if I hadn't been like reading and thinking each month, like, there is a moment that it will, that I will be embarrassed if I don't do that.And like that, that's the way I think about the newsletter. And so, and so repurposing content would be something it's almost like an admission of defeat. which, which I don't is is other people should think but that's an area of my head. And so, and so I think it just like, I need to be onto doing the next thing.There's a bunch of stuff where like, I would love to, I love ways to use the archives, my newsletter better. I think actually like stuff like this is a fun way to do it. Like through a articles and I was like, oh, there's there's stuff I can, I can reference from those. Um but it's it's, it's tough.[00:23:05] Nathan:That makes sense. Okay. So let's talk cadence for a second because this is one of the most popular, common, I don't know, questions that I get from people starting newsletters. Is there, like it should be daily right now, weekly, monthly, twice a month. Can I just do quarterly? Can I grow an audience for the quarterly newsletter?You've settled on twice a month? What was the thought that went into that? And, and what's your present cons on, on that particular.[00:23:33] Nick:I think. I mean, one of the weird things, which I'm like, I don't think it's just me, but like, like, it was like, when you, when you release a newsletter issue, like you naturally lose subscribers, but like, like, like people are reminded that like, they're like, know you have yeah You have keys to their inbox and they're like, like, why why did I let this And so and so like and so ideally like that, you know what I mean, then that's gonna have a rude awakening for, I think, I think people who are like, oh, this, this thing just goes on autopilot. but, but you need something that like is going to generate more new subscribers than it will lose subscribers because I'm a slow writer, like my, my ability to write something that I think is going to generate new subscribers is like twice a month. And like, and, and, if, and if I was, you know, Paki and Mario there, I don't know how fast they are, but like they are, they're dedicated.They can crank out some ungodly number of words, you know, once a week, twice a week, which is super impressive. And I think if I was them, I would do that. And like, you know, I, I love still like Seth Godin writes, like, you know, I feel like he writes every day. And I think so I think if you're, if you're capable of doing that, like, and, and, and doesn't lose subscribers, then like do it and set an appointment.And I think all those things are really nice, but for me, it's like, how do I make sure that like, one it's kinda, it's kinda manageable with a, with like a full-time job, which is the way I've been doing it for a long time. Right. and need to, I think, um you know, there, there are, there are weirdnesses of having a newsletter, any full-time job at the same time.And one of those is like, You are publishing, like if your hobby was sea kayaking, right? Like, like you could do that with no one knowing that you were doing it. Right. And like, and, and there's, there's nothing weird about that. Or like running a marathon or something like that. like it's clearly the thing you're doing on the side, writing a newsletter is like, it's it's knowledge work that is like akin to, to, type of work that you might do in an office Right Coding[00:25:41] Nathan:Marketing copywriting, whatever your your day job[00:25:44] Nick:A hundred percent. And like, and like, if you're putting that out on LinkedIn, like, you know, your managers managers are seeing it and like, and so there's, there's just like, like doing that every day would be, a weird would feel weird to me even if, even if no one else felt weird about and so, and so I feel like twice a month it feels, feels good to me.It's also, it also just like keeps me excited to keep, to keep at it versus making feel like it's like a daily or weekly chore. And I have like a day off, I have a week off in between so that I can like, you know, spend the weekend, not writing if I want to, which is nice.[00:26:23] Nathan:Yeah. I like the idea of timing it to your, like your cadence as a writer. What advice would you have to someone who's in that position of, building audience on the side there, maybe they're doing it secretly at first where they're like awkward about it's this may maybe self promotional, but, but at some point, if you get to any scale right. will either you'll tell people at work about it or they'll find out about it in some way, hopefully be supportive, but I don't know. What advice do you give to someone who's in that[00:26:54] Nick:First, acknowledge that there is weirdness to it. Like there, are, like there are inherent trade-offs to everything and like, and like there is there's weirdness and if, and if you're your, like the, the company I've been working for Guild, like they, like everyone has been more than supportive at it, but, of the, the work and like, but I still have a weird complex about it.You know, I think part of the reason I ended up getting the job was because of, because of the newsletter, some of the stuff I publish of like, you know, shaped our marketing strategy. So there were things where like, I've tried to do things in my writing where my employer benefits from them.Like, you know, whenever I talk about work a lot and whenever I talk about hiring, I mentioned Guild's hiring, Like there, there are, there are things that I do to just try to like, make sure that it still feels worth the company's Weill. And also, like, I think, I think I try to bring in ID.Like I try to have ideas that are useful to what I do at work. so I I wrote this, this piece on, platform branding, which was all about, companies that essentially used their employees to build audiences that, also benefit the companyAnd like, you know, we, ended up using that strategy at Guild which, which was, which was cool.And like that ended up being the strategy doc to some degree, around it, which was cool. And so so so, there's there, there's like ways that you can. think um you bring that in that that are, that valuable. And so I try to sort of look for those things. I, but I think, you know, acknowledged right.That there's, good writing is vulnerable and sometimes it's weird to be vulnerable in front of your colleagues. and, and like it's naturally an attention seeking activity. And if like, if like there's someone at work feels weird about you, like, will be, you know, something that they can talk about, the proverbial water cooler about like, you know, why, why you're not doing your job and you're, you're off writing these letters So so there's there there's weirdness, but like, I think if you can make, if you can allow your company to benefit from the audience you are growing, I think that tends to be a pretty good fit[00:29:12] Nathan:What that made me think of is basically it's going to accelerate or, magnify, whatever someone already thinks of you. So for example, if someone already thinks, like, I don't know, next kind of. he just doesn't contribute that much. Like is he even working half the time then if they publishing once a week, then they're like, see proof of what I already thought. if like the executive at the company is like, Nick is one of the best hires we've ever made. Oh. And look now he's like publishing and rhinos. Like he's a thought leader as well. Like whatever they think is just going to accelerate more. And so maybe it's looking what reputation you already have.[00:29:51] Nick:A hundred percent and it's like, it's like, I mean, the way I see it, and this is kind of what I wrote about in the platform, branding thing is like, I actually think that, having a bunch of employees who are, in a creator type role, um it's like underdeveloped marketing channel. Like you essentially, you have these people who have.Hey, like, I'm going to, going to take my scarcest asset my time give it to this company. and and and now I'm going to build relationships with, with all of these thousands of people who, who listen to these ideas and like, and like that sort of just gives positive energy to the company. So, so actually, like when you compare it, even to like a, a side project that you're coding nights and weekends, I actually think, I think companies should be really supportive of, of, of kind of audience building on the side because it really can benefit them but, but people naturally have a, there's there's a weird feeling about it. And so, and so you have to like, especially as a company, You know, like our, our CEO is, is, is really good at building her own audience on LinkedIn. And I think that gives everyone else some permission to like, you know write vulnerable and things like that.So I think, but I think it, it is, it is a really important thing to be able to have this kind of a group of people who are increasing the company's sort of surface area in Serendip.[00:31:23] Nathan:Yep. I like that. I've wondered about doing something like that for ConvertKit. We have a handful of people on the team who are very prolific creators, for the two myself and then, our creative director, Charlie, frankly, she has like followers on YouTube and a popular channel and all of that.There's a handful of other people who have podcasts and are, are active on Twitter. Our product managers are quite active when you talk to them about things related to ConvertKit, you know, they're like active with customers, but I haven't, or we haven't taken this approach like fast or on deck, or I'm trying to think who else does it, but, but these companies where they're like, okay, there's 15 of us and we're all going to.Become Twitter famous, you know, or start our thing and we'll all drive back. Is it a strategy that you think works well?[00:32:17] Nick:The, the best example of this actually think is, I think on-deck did it, did it really has done it really well on Twitter Um I think gong is actually probably my favorite example. Um especially from a B2B what they do is like is all of their salespeople are out there, like posting content on LinkedIn, but it's not like how great gong is.Almost has nothing to do with gum. It's like you know, an a I'm I'm I'm grinding today. Can't wait to get off for the weekend. It's like, it's like, it, it, it sort of, embodying kind of this, this, like this, the sales lifestyle. Right. And, and, and the, the engagement they get is, is crazy.Right. And like, and that, the thing is, if, so, so there's sort of like, there's kind of like, you can build lifestyle influencers among your employees Right But you can also. Like this idea of building up someone who is, who is a, I know this is kind of a gross word, but thought leader in the, in the, space you're, you're excited about.People kind of come to them, they build affinity with them. And I think you, you can build individuals as marketing channels where like starts out where like someone's reading your posts on LinkedIn. maybe that person hosts a, a kind of invite only webinar for, for the people who engage most of them on LinkedIn.So, so then you're building sort of deeper affinity towards that person. And, and as, as you go down the sales funnel um like marketing and sales, you actually transfer that affinity over to the company as, as like they get into the sale process. from kind of a B2B side, but like, I think you can do it also from a B to C.[00:33:49] Nathan:Do you think that a company like gone. Hired people are good at that and encouraged it, or do you think they like had the people that they hired and said like, okay everyone, this is now what we're doing. a playbook, here's best practices. Here's a slack channel where you can talk about what's working.What's not, but like we're this now. Get on board.[00:34:11] Nick:This is, would be a hundred percent pure speculation. What is, is someone at gong started doing this one of their salespeople and started crushing it. And they're, you know, director of marketing was smart enough to. Hey could be doing a lot like, and B, because it's their salespeople who do it, right.A natural incentive to do it. And so, you know, I would imagine they probably brought on a copywriter and said, Hey, if you need help, you know, crafting these posts, like you can do that It's just, it's such a, it's such a virtuous right? It's like, it's like, because of the affinity you build with these individuals it translates to the company.And like it just sends it a bat signal out to other people who are like that, who want to build audiences, that like the company will help you do that. And they will be supportive. And like, and again, if we imagine that like, they're like audience is this long-term career mode, it's just like, it's such a great gift.You can give to your employees for them to leave with like you know, like you leave ConvertKit and you have, you know, a hundred thousand subscribers or 10,000 it's like, or whatever. Right. It's, it's, it's as much of a gift as like the salary you're giving them. It's just, we don't think of it that way.Cause it's, it's a weird thing to think about getting. From your company[00:35:27] Nathan:Yeah. I mean, that's how we've handled it in that we're very in favor of side projects. We want everyone who wants to, like, we're not gonna force it on. But to have a way to be a, a creator on the, on the side and to have some actual reason to use ConvertKit as a customer. Because it's so different when you're the product and like clicking through the happy path to test something and you're like, Hey guys, it works.Then some customers like this is really frustrating. and so that, like, it's a very different, different, I think that it's just interesting. You're absolutely right about people with that. Like, Matt Reglan, who's been on this show before he was at ConvertKit for years. joined when we were like 20,000 a month in revenues like that. when he eventually moved on to his nets, next thing, you know, he built an, a YouTube audience to like 10,000 subscribers at that point. And that was a whole thing that he'd done a lot with skills he learned at ConvertKit a lot with, you know, our creative director, Charlie, like promoting him and just, all right. But like, it still happens even we've got 70 people on the team and we're talking like six are active in this way. I just wonder how much to encourage it versus how much to just say like, Hey, this is an option if you want it, but like you don't push it any more than that[00:36:51] Nick:I mean, I think one of the interesting things, when you think about like the creator economy is like, I think the creator economy can support a lot of people, but the the challenge is like when you're deciding, should I follow this person? there aren't very good moats in the creator economy. And so and so one of the.Few moats you can have is like companies that you've worked for giving you this brand halo. Right And so, and, and, brand from your company sort of, it says this person might be a little more worth following because someone chose them now, does that true You know, don't think so, but like, it at least sends this signal.And so I think, one, like your brand can do that for, for, for your employees, but also like I think there's a. I think just showing that the company will pour fuel on whatever fire you're starting, I think is like, it's, it's one of the best like employee value props. I think a company can have, It's like, it's like, look the life you want to have. Like, we, want to get you there. like, and like, and I think the kind of people who would come work for ConvertKit it should be that they want to do something in the creator space, because you're serving creators that makes a ton That makes a ton of of sense[00:38:10] Nathan:Yeah. And we've definitely had people that we've hired, who are already creators, and that's grown. So it, an interesting world in all the things that you could do to grow. Like a company or growing audience. I'm not sure that that's the one would pick, but you, you see Morning Brew and, and gong in so many of others doing it and it seems to work, know? So[00:38:33] Nick:Yeah Like, I think it works for like, like select companies in select Right. And like, and there's, and there's probably a channel that works under and like the. way you do it for, you know, for Guild where, like we, you know, we really target, um you know, companies with huge employee populations at the very level Like like we wouldn't do that on, on Twitter. Right. Just doesn't make any sense, but like, would we do it on LinkedIn where like, where, you know, C-suite spends an increasing amount of time and we can directly with those individuals and maybe influence that the five to 10 people that, that matter at those companies with like, you know, one post a week.Totally. so, so it just, it kind of depends on like, um I think companies can, can kind of do it at different levels.[00:39:21] Nathan:So that's interesting of the LinkedIn approach, which I think a lot of creators are either all in, on LinkedIn and loving You know, people have built massive lists over there, or they're like, what's that like, I'll hang out in the Instagram, YouTube, Twitters of the world, you know? but if you imagine that B2B world where let's say I'm, I'm working in sales, either as an executive, trying to get big deals done, or, you know, or as a team member, I have a meeting, we have a great conversation.We connect on LinkedIn, you know, we're now an official connection. And now, even though you're not going to buy my thing now, you're like seeing my content every. Week or every few weeks. And then it's like, oh yeah, you're going to buy that thing from Nathan, you know, whatever B2B tool, like starts to come up.And then when I reach out again and you're like, it's not like, oh yeah, it's that one sales rep that I wasted 20 minutes off on with, you know, six months ago. It's like, oh yeah. I feel like we're friends there. I've learned so much, even though it's just been one to many communication.[00:40:25] Nick:I mean, I think the really powerful thing it's like obviously a sales rep is incentivized to promote the product at company they work for So it's like it's product whether it's in a sales call or on LinkedIn like it will not it will not move the needle for any customer.Because it's sort of priced in that That's what they're expecting. But showing that you are an intellectually interesting person who has deep thoughts about the world, who is, who's a smart person. And then the customer making the connection, man, this smart person out of all the places where they could go work has chosen to work here.[00:41:04] Nathan:Right[00:41:05] Nick:Of something, right. There must be something kind of interesting and special there. And so they built of this affinity and comfort and excitement about you and like, and, and then getting on a sales call with you, you're at this just like this nice advantage, right? You're, you're, you're now slightly a celebrity to them.Right Like and, and there's something, you know, like when your, your email or even your company's email then pops up in their inbox, like it's just that much more likely to open that much more interesting. And sometimes it's, it's those, it's those little things on the margin that can make all the difference.And so I think, especially when you're talking like a, like really big enterprise sales, I actually think it's still, a kind of, underrated strategy.[00:41:48] Nathan:Yeah, sense. talk about a, more from the creator side. Cause that was, know, we went more on the platform company side of the which, you know, someone running a company, I am intrigued in that direction, but I'm curious on the, on the creative side, how do you think about that audience as being for your career and that thing that goes with you as you between roles and giving you a future opportunities and all.[00:42:14] Nick:I think it comes to like writing a newsletter.There's basically three reasons. You'd write a personal newsletter and earliest the way I think about it. Like it's either passion, like, you know, I love cooking and like, this is a way I can express that side of me It's it's profit. I want to actually just make some side income or make this into my full income Or it's General advancement.And maybe the relationship building kind of tithing relationship building probably ties into that. but, but in general, like the, I sort of see one things being being like the reason, like for me, at least for a long time, it's probably been advancement. but, certainly the other two are mixed.Like I'm, you know I'm curious about, you know, turning on the profit spigot out of it And like, it certainly like I wouldn't keep doing it if it didn't hit the passion bucket. and so, and so I think that, that, you have to sort of figure out which of those you're doing. I think, I think like if, if what you want to do, I think most people actually are doing it because they do want new opportunities and relationships.I think actually advancement to me is it's actually, the best reason to do it. Um uh over the other two. And, in that world, like, you kind of want to imagine like, okay, Who is, what kind of job do I want, who is the person that I want to be at some point down the road? Who's the gatekeeper that stands in the way of that.Whether it's like, maybe it's I want to publish a book at some point, right. a publisher stands in the way of that. and so what, what gets this publisher excited? Well, either, maybe I'm writing a newsletter for book publishers and this is the industry standard, but like more likely it's like, it's like, Hey, I built this audience that is then really exciting to a publisher.So-so I or, you know, it's, I want to become a senior engineering manager. and so what's going to be exciting to the VP of engineering who is going to interview me. You know, it, it could be that I have an audience full of engineers, who who like are easy to hire, maybe it's that I just like think in a really deep level about this really complicated problem that is really important to them, but it's, it's sort of like, I think having that, kind of magic gatekeeper mind as as not the person you're necessarily writing for all the time, but the, thing you're trying to build up to, that can be a good north star in that direction.If you're doing this, advancement thing, I still don't think you should pick something that doesn't light you up because it's really, you know, it's really hard to keep doing this, week after week when you're grinding it out for some future version of yourself that you know, may may change.I, I think that, that that tends to be a pretty good path.[00:45:10] Nathan:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me and like networking connection and advancement side of things, I think is one of the best reasons to do. A lot of that. I remember like the first conference that I went to after having a blog and it being such a night and day difference. I wasn't even a speaker at this conference, any of that, but people were like wanting to come up and talk to me because of the articles that I've written you.Whereas like months earlier, you know, pre blog, you go to a conference and I was shy and introverted. Like I didn't talk to anybody. And so I was like, wow, because I published words on the internet. People will now do all the work. Like interesting people will come meet me instead of me having to like put out all the work.This is the best leverage ever on the same way, like podcasts and everything else Write being able to, everyone says the Podcast in there for the audience. It is right. You know, thousands of people will listen to this episode. I am more doing it because I get to meet people like you and Kimberly, who we just had on last week.And right. It's just about meeting people. that's so[00:46:09] Nick:It's like it's like you know, like I think with Podcast, it's crazy because you like appear in somebody's ears. Right. You're like, literally like you're right next to their head, you know And like and it's it's, just like, it's this, it's this wild, like intimate relationship, usually, like I'm listening, you know, on, on two X.So everyone sounds smarter than you than they would were listening to them on one X like it's, it's, it's I think publishing and creating content, especially in a world where like we just live more online where like more of our interactions are, are remote. I think it's, it's a, it's a pretty, it's still sort of an underrated hack, especially in, in your career, right?Like you can, you can do. You know, you, you become inter like instantly, someone who someone wants to take a meeting with and like it's those little, like, sort of marginal decisions, right To like chart the course of your career, right? Like, like, did, did this person meet with you or not? Were they predisposed to like you, before you came in and like, you don't actually know which article is going to hit to make them feel that way, or which Podcast is going to, you know, which Podcast you're going to meet, the person who, you know, might be an ex customer or investor or something like that.But like, there's just such a powerful, you know, with that[00:47:26] Nathan:I think one of my favorite examples a people using an interview show or, you know, interviews in general to break into an industry Harry Stebbings, who does 20 minute VC, because I don't know how old he was when he started it, but like 17, maybe I'm not[00:47:42] Nick:Totally[00:47:43] Nathan:nd he's like, I want to break into the world of venture capital and, you know, interviewing all the biggest names at first people were saying yes to him, probably because of his hustle, because he was young.They're just like, sure. I'll take a chance on this kid on, your 20 minute.And[00:47:59] Nick:Now love I love people who have like, a, a 10 step plan for their career. Maybe you just, you just wanted to create a podcast. It was sort of like,[00:48:11] Nathan:Right[00:48:12] Nick:Doing this for fun, but like, not a ton of people have, have a plan. Right. like, like most people are just sort of doing stuff, but like, if you like sit down and just kind of think about it for like, like 20 minutes and you're like, who might, I want to be like, who does that person like, like what would make me credible in that person's eyes?Like, like how could I, you know, do that thing now. So that in two or three years, like, like Harry's, I've been such a good example. Like, I, I think there, there are so many people who, who like, if they, they sat and gave that like 10 minutes and turn Twitter off, like you can just, like, you can do a lot of, you know, good, good strategy there.[00:48:52] Nathan:Well, I think can do it as a method to break into any business. So if we were like, know if you and I were 18 years old and we're like, wouldn't be in the music business or even right. You wanted to go into screenwriting. you with what you know now, and you and I were brainstorming how to get 18 year old you into like screenwriting, we would probably suggest starting a podcast and you interview all the screenings. In some format and it wouldn't result in work, but then you'd imagine we have this network and this work would come from the network and you're like, no direct connection, but then there's a ton of indirect connections that wouldn't have happened without it.[00:49:31] Nick:You know, it's kind of a similar thing. We talked we've dragged them at Twitter at the beginning. Right. Twitter does this service for people that gives them like a feeling of prestige. Right. And like, and, and what you're basically doing is like, it's like, you're giving an audience to people who don't have time to build one for themselves.And like, you know, most of the people who are listening to this podcast are people who are building audiences in, in some way shape or form, but like most people don't do that. Right And and so, and so you can find all sorts of people who are who are just like all the time, who like, would love to sort of rent someone else's audience to build themselves up.And so like, and so you can be then 18 and it's a total hack to be able to sort of bring on this screenwriter, this music industry, executive, this, you know, a VC. Right. And it's just, it's[00:50:23] Nathan:Right It made me realize another person on the ConvertKit team who does this really well is ISA Adney. Who's our storyteller. she used to teach all of our webinars and workshops and, and, is branched into working on like brand development sides as he writes a lot of and else, but her personal audience, let me take a step back.If you talk to her, she's like, know this person, or whoever at Disney or that kind of thing who worked on, you know, and just like the amount of people that she knows in the world of storytelling and film and everything else, you're like, how do you know all these people? like, oh, I interviewed them for my newsletter, you know?And you're just like, wait, what? And it's like, I was going to say cartoonists, but like illustrators from, from will like draw her a birthday card. can tell us just for her, you know? And you're like, how, and, and it just comes from this exact thing of like, oh, I just interviewed them on my newsletter, which is a fantastic newsletter, but it's not like they came on it because she's wildly famous.It's that[00:51:26] Nick:It's incredible. And I like there, there's a couple other people I've seen who have like, who, who sort of, they have their, their, their full-time job, but like, on the side, right? Like, Liz Bostonian, someone I've known for awhile and interviewed, and she, she wrote a book called no hard feelings about emotions at work.She's about to publish her second one and like the way she's just like, she's known by, by all of these people at all these different companies that like her company would be the perfect company to sell in, to sell into. you know, it's just, it's just there. There's. There's so many good things that can come a bit.I think one thing I'd advise to like, w going back to like this, how do you balance a, like a, like a newsletter and a full-time career is like don't work for any company that doesn't value it because because like you know, clearly there are places like Guild, like ConvertKit like there there's so many different companies where like you can go where like, they will appreciate what you're doing.And if you can, if you can, like, ideally, like, let's say you love to write about cooking, right. If you can find a company where like, that is like, like, especially like building an audience around cooking, like it's, you know, a dishware company or whatever it is, like finding that right place for not just you, but your publication, a really underrated thing, because it just makes everything so much smoother to find that right.Manager find that. Right. you know,[00:52:52] Nathan:Yeah. That makes sense. If it's an uphill battle, like find another, another place where that's actually a asset.[00:52:59] Nick:Someone will like it.[00:53:00] Nathan:Yeah, exactly. So maybe before we wrap up, let's talk about the growth side. Cause everyone's thinking about, okay, I have my newsletter and it has 100 subscribers or 500. How do I grow it to that next tier So I'm curious, what are some of the things that have worked for you on, adding 100 or 500 or a thousand subscribers at a time?[00:53:19] Nick:Twitter Twitter. You, you, you can use Twitter.[00:53:22] Nathan:Yeah[00:53:22] Nick:It's It's frought in many ways you can also use LinkedIn. I actually think LinkedIn is, an underrated place to do it. Like it's to me, it's not as stressful to write a LinkedIn post as it is to write. A tweet, it's a little stressful, cause it's like, it's like, definitely definitely to your company And it's a place where you're in professional domain, but especially if your newsletter is somewhat professional, then I think, I think LinkedIn can be a really good place for it. and a little bit less of a pressure-filled way to do it. I probably one of the underrated things now is like, you know, I look at how many discord servers I'm suddenly in, like in in you know, months and like, I think those are probably good places to like promote.I don't think it's, I don't think you can in communities, it's harder to just be promotional. You need to sort of have earned it by, by building relationships. And so, but I think like, you know, I'm, I'm in a writing group called foster, right? Where, where like where, you know that they help with editing and like, and like everyone's sort of publishes their stuff in there, but like that's a great place to like, to, to sort of build a following, especially sort of early on.Obviously you can do things like hit Reddit, hit hacker news, you know, Reddit, I think I've been banned from like, you know, 20 different subreddits for, you know a just posting a blog post, which seemed to me. But, um and then hacker news, right? You, you, you never know. And, and, you know, getting to the top means you're going to get barraged with terrible comments, but, I think ultimately though you kind of want something you can build, right.And this is, this is the, this is the challenge with Twitter, right? It's like, it's like, there is a weirdness about Twitter, but. Building an audience on Twitter Like it's a great top of funnel for a newsletter, and same way with LinkedIn. And so it's hard to totally steer away from those things. I think one thing I'd to try and toy with once I figure out the monetization piece, of my newsletter is I'd like to try paid ads.And there's this weird discomfort with it with it. if what you value is value is, having an audience and people to write to and you want to grow that audience, I actually think it doesn't need to be that literally every person you painstakingly gathered with your blood, sweat, and tears, right.It's it's I think there's, there's other stuff that you can try, but you obviously don't want to be throwing a lot of money down the drain on, building an audience[00:55:53] Nathan:YeahI've, I've done paid ads with good results of four. I have a local newsletter called from Boise, is just for the Boise area. And in the last month we actually went to a thousand subscribers and we doubled to a little over 2000 subscribers, almost entirely with ads. So like no ads to a thousand and, ads worked well, you know, and it helps to have the hyper-local targeting.So I was in the same boat of like, hadn't played with it before. And, you know, at, I think we paid between $2 and two 50 a subscriber,[00:56:25] Nick:Facebook.[00:56:26] Nathan:Yeah, Facebook and Instagram. So we'll play with it more. What are you thinking maybe we'll end on this question. What do you thinking for on the newsletter?What are you paid? Is it a A A book? What other things are coming up?[00:56:39] Nick:It took me a while to find something I was comfortable with on modernization paid, never, appealed that much to me. just because there, there are some people who I like I will pay for their ideas, but like, overwhelmed with Content. that like, usually when I'm paying for, for, for, for a newsletter, it's because I really liked the person, like their, their, just their style of analysis.I can't get anywhere else. but, but, but the competitive dynamics of newsletter sort of, to me, like they'll, they'll kind of always be someone who something close to what you do for free. And so, and so that, that always kinda, didn't appeal to me as much. Like I think of it as like, This audience, that you're kind of building affinity with over time and like, and can you, ideally sort of find, build something or find something that's going to be really valuable to them.So I actually, literally just this morning, teamed up with this, this company called palette, to, I swear, this, this, this time it was not planned. It just, it just happened nicely, to a team at this company called pallet in pallets, been sort job boards with a bunch of and I actually worked with them on this, this kind of beta product that they're working on, which is this idea of talent collectives. And so what we're doing is like, it's like basically job searching really sucks. Like you're filling out tons of applications. You are, waiting for a long time to hear back from companies.If you are highly desirable, you're getting a lot of recruiter spam and they're just like barraging you. so we're going to do, is, is put basically just an air table form where you can say, Hey, like, this is who I am. This is the kind of role I'm looking for. pallet has this, this, all these companies that they are so, so they're going to basically, send people and you can be anonymous if you want to all sorts of stuff, but they're to their partner companies and then and then they'll send you sort of the intro request, like, Hey, you know, do you want to, do you want to chat with ConvertKit right.And, and, and if you do right, we'll, we'll make the intro, but like, you don't have to worry about our recruiter reaching out to you because they've, they've said they won't do that. so yeah, I think it's cool. you know, if, if, if any of the folks listening to this are like, exploring new job opportunity.We'd love you to come check it out. I think it'll be really neat. I think it'll solve a challenge that a lot of people are facing. For me it felt really native. It felt like I didn't want to do a job board because I don't know these companies. I'm doing a newsletter about careers, and it felt really important that I'm sending people to the right place.I said, “Hey, if you sign up for this, and you take one call from a company, I'll do a 30 minute career coaching session with you.” Even though, I'll get paid some commission, if the person goes to one of these companies, I will really try to give them the best advice for them, because that's what I promised to readers.When you're thinking about monetization, it's like find something that feels native, and not weird to your audience. I think sometimes that can be a pure paid subscription, but you can be creative in different stuff.[00:59:51] Nathan:Yeah, I think that's good. Let's leave it there. I'm super excited to see what comes on the monetization side. It's probably the coolest thing about newsletters and audiences that you can monetize different ways.So, where should people go to follow you and follow your writing, and see more about what you're up to?[01:00:07] Nick:You can follow where I have a conflicted relationship, where there are days I will post a tweet, tweet threads, and the next day I'll feel very ashamed of it, but that's @Nick_deWilde. Then the better place to get my thoughts, I would say, is JungleGym.Substack.com.At some point I should probably switch that to ConvertKit, but yeah, that's another time. We'd love that, and thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun.[01:00:42] Nathan:Yeah, It's been a great conversation and, thanks for coming on, and we'll talk soon.[01:00:47] Nick:Awesome, Nathan.
Drew Holcomb thought his music career was over until he trusted his instincts, sat in his grief, and wrote his first hit song in 10 minutes. Visit https://convertkit.com/drew-holcomb for show notes and more information.
Torn between parenthood and a successful career? Not anymore! Tune in to how you can have it all and live your life while building a truly fulfilling career. Episode Introduction: If you're a business owner who often finds yourself overwhelmed, this episode is for you. Our guest today, Abbey Ashley talks about the benefits and importance of outsourcing work to create a work-life balance. She also shares the best practices to outsource work, even if it's your first time. Episode Summary: Abbey Ashley walks us through her journey of starting her business as a Virtual Assistant who was looking to do something to kill time and make some extra cash to now owning The Virtual Savvy, a brand that has taught thousands of virtual assistants how to run a successful online business. She shares her challenges, how she overcame them, how she grew her own team, why outsourcing is important, and also some super effective tips to do so starting today. Main Takeaways: When work starts to feel overwhelming and consumes your thoughts, sit with a journal to write down all about it. Just putting actual words to your feelings will help a great deal. Challenges are an indicator of growth so they'll always be there. The important thing is for you to become someone who's comfortable with facing their fears at different levels in life. Outsourcing can be really scary for multiple reasons but make sure you make an intentional effort to delegate work when you can and focus on your zone of genius. If delegation is difficult for you, start by outsourcing a one-time project to get in the practice of someone else taking over a task. How to outsource effectively: Start by outsourcing to tools first. Take a look at your outsourcing budget (after paying yourself first). Make a list of the tasks that you need to outsource. Find a VA that aligns with your brand and cultural values. Always choose action over perfection. Recommended Resources: Hire a VA: https://www.thevirtualsavvy.com/hire/ Join the HelloSavvy Waitlist: https://hellosavvy.com/ Fun Facts About Abbey Ashley: Some of her favorite books are Clockwork: Design Your Business to Run Itself by Mike Michalowicz and From 6 to 7 Figures: Simplify Your Business, Gain Your Time Back, Scale Faster Than Ever by Austin Netzley Some of her favorite business tools are Canva, Dubsado, ConvertKit, Kajabi, Slack, and Loom. Help us mentor other entrepreneurs through the power of storytelling by rating us and leaving a positive review on Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/law-chat-with-girija/id1528580730 Get the FREE Five Day Legal Audit: https://yourcontractbuddy.com/5-day-free-legal-audit-challenge/ Join Law Chat for Entrepreneurs Free Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/449334726047480 Find Abbey Ashley: Website: https://www.thevirtualsavvy.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thevirtualsavvy/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/abbeyashley Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheVirtualSavvy Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/vasavvies Get the visual experience, watch the videocast for the episode here: https://youtu.be/SI0_8cENNQI Connect With Girija: Website: https://www.gbplaw.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gbplaw/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/GBPLaw/ Get Ready To Use Contact Templates At: https://yourcontractbuddy.com/
Do you have an employer brand? You should. Laura Tolhoek created Essential HR, a female-led team of HR professionals who are driven to work with small businesses by helping sort through the details and providing solutions. They wanted to provide support to small businesses that didn't necessarily need a full-time HR person on the payroll but still needed an experienced person to help navigate those situations that could cause risk and stress within their operations. In this episode, I ask... What is an ‘Employer Brand' and why is it important for small businesses? How does your company brand and employer brand intersect? What types of HR policies and practices are included in creating an employer brand? How can employers use podcasts in their employer brand strategy? What negatively affects employer brand? What mistakes do businesses often make when establishing an employer brand strategy? How do I get started creating an employer brand? Get started today - https://www.essentialhr.ca/podcaststrategies *** Are you interested in starting or growing a podcast AND business with the support of my team and a community of experienced podcasters? Join my Podcaster Pod. You get... Full access to my 8-module podcasting course taking you from idea to launch and everything in between. Equipment and tech, Recording and publishing. Scripts and templates. Everything! Access to me, my team, and a group of experienced podcasters through a private Slack channel Monthly Q&A calls with me and the other Podcaster Pod members. Quarterly Expert Calls Access to me and my network –– meaning I will introduce you to other influencers and people who can help you where it makes sense. Consider joining my new membership site for $27/month. Go to https://dannyozment.com/pod Use code JOINPODPOD to get a 1-month free trial. *** Do you have a website for your business or personal brand or are you building one? If so, then you need WPX hosting. I use WPX for all of my sites and so do many of our clients. For $25/month, WPX's Business Plan gives you Hosting for 5 Websites 10 GB Storage 100 GB Bandwidth Free SSL certificates The WPX Cloud Content Delivery Network They average around 30 second support response time 24/7/365 around the world Provide free unlimited site migration from any host to WPX, usually completed within 24 hours And they are fast because they never overload servers with hosting accounts, unlike so-called 'cheap' hosting which crumbles under any traffic load Sign up for the WPX Business Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/wpx *** Are you building an email list for your business or personal brand? If so, then you need ConvertKit. I use ConvertKit for my list and so do most of our clients. For $29/month, ConvertKit's Creator Plan manages up to 1,000 subscribers Provides unlimited landing pages & forms Sends email broadcasts Provides the ability to Sell digital products & subscriptions Has super fast Email support AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... Gives you Free migration from another tool AND Automated funnels & sequences Get a free 14-day trial of the Creator Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/convertkit *** My Recommended Resources - https://dannyozment.com/resources
In the early days of YouTube, popular creators often started second channels: one channel for main content and the other for vlogs. While that trend has since faded away, second channels are still an important content stream for major influencers and niche creators alike. But how do you know when to establish a second channel? Could you create a playlist that achieves the same thing? How do you cross-promote with two YouTube channels fighting for the same attention? As a veteran YouTuber, Charli launched a second channel earlier this year for podcast-related content. She made the move after realizing that podcast episodes and clips on her main channel drew fewer views and less engagement than her regular videos. Additionally, her podcast audience felt different from her main channel followers, so it seemed like the right path to take.In this episode, Charli, Haley, and Miguel discuss best practices for launching a second channel, the risk and reward of decentralizing your content, and when channel No. 2 should stay a pipe dream.“I wouldn't recommend people even start thinking about this unless their content is very different, like a completely different niche, or they have over 100,000 subscribers already. I think under that, you're better to put all your fuel into one place to fan the flames and keep the fire going.” ~ @charliprangleyMain takeaways [03:53] When you post videos that are different from your normal content, the algorithm works against you. Rather than simply creating playlists for viewers and segmenting your content that way, creating a new YouTube channel can solve an algorithm headache. [09:42] When it comes to cross-promotion, don't be afraid to explicitly ask your audience to support your second channel and be transparent about what their support means to you. [10:16] While your second channel may have fewer subscribers, the people that do subscribe will be the people most interested in that type of content, so you'll likely see increased engagement and promising viewership analytics. [27:03] Sometimes it works to decentralize your content and let your audience find you in whichever medium they prefer. Connect with our hosts Charli Prangley Miguel Pou Haley Janicek Links Watch The Future Belongs to Creators on YouTube Charli's Second YouTube Channel Inside Marketing Design Podcast Roberto Blake Nathan's podcast Nathan Barry Show on YouTube Nathan Barry Show Clips Sean McCabe Stripe Inside Marketing Design at Stripe Tatiana Van Campenhout Alexis Teichmiller Bandit Coffee YouTube Isa Adney Got a story to tell on The Future Belongs to Creators podcast?We'd love to have you on the show to talk about successes or failures you've experienced on your creator journey. Submit your story here!Start building your audience for freeWith ConvertKit landing pages, you can build a beautiful page for your project in just a few minutes. Choose colors, add photos, build a custom opt-in form, and add your copy. All without writing any code! Check out landingpages.new to get started.Stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Twitter Facebook Instagram
Drum roll please... My husband officially quit his job! We're chatting all about why he decided to quit, what he's doing now, and his advice for people who want to leave corporate and start their own business. Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicaco
Kimberly Brooks is a contemporary American artist and author. Kimberly integrates landscape, figuration and abstraction to address subjects of history, memory and identity. Her work has been exhibited and featured internationality.Kimberly received her bachelor's degree in literature from U.C. Berkeley, and was Valedictorian. She has taught art as a lecturer and adjunct faculty instructor, and was a featured speaker at TEDx Fullerton.In this episode, I talk with Kimberly about her work as an artist, author, and editor. We talk about how she uses ConvertKit to reach and grow her audience. We talk about what people can learn from fine art, and apply it to their newsletters. We also cover the path to becoming a successful creator, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: The secret to achieving your breakthrough moment A job most creators should charge for, but rarely do What you should be doing instead of blogging Should you be posting on Instagram? Links & Resources Huffington Post ConvertKit Craft and Commerce Steve Jobs John Baldessari Adobe Photoshop Adobe Leonard Shlain Milton Glaser Macworld Walt Disney's Imagineering Warner Music Group Seth Godin Leonardo da Vinci Arianna Huffington Huffington Post: Fine Art Later Anderson Ranch Arts Center Otis College of Art and Design Kimberly Brooks's Links Find Kimberly on Instagram Kimberly's website Kimberly's Ted Talk Huffington Post article, “The Gap Logo, New Coke and the Legendary Walter Landor” Kimberly's book, The New Oil Painting Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Kimberly:The fundamental way to learn is, you imitate, assimilate, and then you can improvise with anything. You're going to be thwarted in the beginning many times, and you can't give up. You have to say, “Okay, well, I don't care if it sucks. I don't care if I'm going to fail. If I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna fail big. Let's just go on.”[00:00:29] Nathan:In this episode I talk to Kimberly Brooks. She is a fine artist. So, painting, she has all of her art in galleries, that whole world, which is super fascinating to me. She also plays in the creative world. Newsletters, podcasts, and interviews.She built the whole art editorial section of the Huffington Post. She built that to millions of readers. She's done all kinds of things in the design community from the early days. So, we riff on that; Mad Men-style ad agencies in the ‘80s and ‘90s. Some great stuff.Then she brings it all the way through to talking about what she does with ConvertKit. How she sets up her sequences, and everything else, and things that people can learn from fine art, and apply to their email newsletters and sequences.So, it's a fun episode. We have to do a part two, because we filled up all the time we had, and I think I only got through half my questions.So, anyway, I'm going to get out of the way and dive in. So, here we go.Kimberly, welcome to the show.[00:01:37] Kimberly:Thank you for having me, Nathan.[00:01:39] Nathan:There's so many things I to talk about, because you come to the creator world from a different perspective than I do, though we both share a love for Photoshop.[00:01:50] Kimberly:Oh, yeah.[00:01:51] Nathan:We'll start with where we met. It was at Craft and Commerce, some number of years ago.I can't even think. Three years ago? Four?[00:02:01] Kimberly:I think it was three years ago, and it was such a random whim. I don't even know how I ended up finding it. I fell in rabbit hole. And then I came upon ConvertKit.I was actively looking for a better way to send art show announcements. Because I'm a painter, I'm an artist.I just felt after my previous experiences, I knew how important having a subscriber-based service was. I don't want to get too nerdy, but I didn't really like the competitor who shall remain unnamed. But, I found you guys, and I started getting the advertisement for the conference, and it was in Boise, Idaho.And so I thought, I'll just go. It was like a Ted conference for really creative nerdy people like me, but it was exactly what I was wanting. It was about marketing, which is really such a weird word because it's really about sharing, and I loved the title.I loved everything about it. I met some of the people that I'm really, really close with now. Then the next year it was canceled because of the pandemic, but it was amazing, and I met you, actually.[00:03:28] Nathan:And, and we had a really fun conversation. one thing that I want to talk about, for you is the intersection between fine art, right. And painting and that world. And then now you're also in this world of being a writer and a creator in the sense, right. You you've been a writer and creative for a long time, but, but it's, it's like a different world of the selling things to your audience.And. Earning money directly in that way. And so I want, like, I want to hear that as you like weave in and out of these two worlds and then just your experience there.[00:04:02] Kimberly:Yeah, it's interesting. I, when I was in elementary school, we had a really competitive game of tetherball constantly going on on the playground. And it was just sort of that pole with a ball attached to a rope we would, people would line up and we would get it, and it was, see how many times, and it was just sort of like, it was very intense and I always felt like being an artist.Being an art to me was it was the pole, you know? So like my pole is art is making art and everything about what I do. I write about it. I interview people about it. I interview other artists about their work. I make paintings 90% of the time in my studio. Like, it's all about art, you know? So that's like the beginning.So I do see myself sashaying between different worlds. And I think everybody kind of does that. And then as the bicycle of technology was being built to use kind of like a vague reference to like Steve jobs is, you know, what happens if you put a man on a bicycle and you know, like how fast can he, as the bicycle was kind of entering our world, I thought, what if you kind of mixed art with the bicycle?You know, what, what happens if you, you know, Make an artist's website. So I was like one of the first people I knew that made an artist's website. And I remember, it was, I had, was having lunch with my mentor. Who's, the late John Baldessari. He was a great, great, great artist. And, he's famous for, you know, he burned all this stuff and graduate school and then became a conceptual painter, you know, very, you know, Howard work in, you know, conceptual anyway.So I brought my laptop to this Mexican restaurant in Venice, and I said, I wanted to show you something. I made a website and our studios were really near each other. And he said, Oh, I, I don't know if I would do that. If I were you, I was like, why not? He said, because you're, you'll piss off the dealers, the galleries, the galleries, you shouldn't be selling directly.It's going to take away from what their job is. You know, when you hang a show and you have art in the gallery, the gallery is selling the artist and it's their job, you know, and artists are supposed to be kind of this, you know, semi mute, black turtleneck wearing, you know, mysterious, mystical ShawMan goddess.I call it goddess on the hill. Like you're not supposed to really get in the way of what your artists about. And so I thought, oh gosh, you know, this is, and I had put the paintings for a show was about to have. And so I started making, so my postcard for that show had the name of the show and it had the name of the website, cause no galleries had website.Then this is in like the two thousands, you know, this is a long time ago. And I remember meeting people when I handed them a postcard. If like I felt comfortable with them, I would like secretly write a password so that they could see the website,[00:07:20] Nathan:Oh was you were, you had the website, but it was[00:07:24] Kimberly:Yeah. So I password protected it. I password protected it because John Baldessari told me that it's probably not a good idea to have a website.This is again, no artists ad website.[00:07:35] Nathan:How did the galleries and the community[00:07:37] Kimberly:The galleries didn't have websites either. And the galleries, I remember. They started it. Like some of them had websites, but it was super janky. It was like sometimes most of the time they did an, and it was just sort of this mysterious world that 99.9, nine, 9% of the public didn't understand.Doesn't understand it's better now. And you'd have to be walking down the street or you'd have to know somebody who knows somebody, you know, it's, it was just a different world then.[00:08:08] Nathan:But did any of those negative things come about? Like, did anyone look down on you on it for having a website and for[00:08:14] Kimberly:No, no, no. Eventually I just said, screw it. And I took the password off.And, interestingly, I don't want to date myself, but I think I already have, but the at the time flash was very. sexy. And it was like, and so artists would have, if they did have website, firstly, they would be horribly designed and they would have like a flash animation of a curtain opening and a door.And it was very like CD rom mentality. Like, you know, it was pre-internet thinking, you know, anyway, like I said, the big nerd here.[00:08:48] Nathan:Flash was big until 2000, like the iPhone 2007.[00:08:52] Kimberly:Until Steve jobs killed it, just took a knife. He took a sword and he just, during a keynote, just, you know,[00:09:01] Nathan:Yeah. Oh, and the two biggest reasons were, that the bandwidth of the phones couldn't handle it. And then also the battery life on the phones couldn't handle it.[00:09:10] Kimberly:Wasn't there another reason there was another technical reason that had to do with plays well with others. I can't remember exactly what it was,[00:09:20] Nathan:Yeah. I mean, it was a restricted technology. Like it was owned Macromedia. And so probably that apple was trying to do to get to play. And Adobe was playing hardball and apple was probably like, okay,[00:09:31] Kimberly:Yeah,[00:09:32] Nathan:You know, we'll play this[00:09:33] Kimberly:Yeah. It was, was, it was, it was just the evolution of, you know, of Photoshop and Adobe products. And so I grew up with Adobe. I learned I was an early adopter, always, you know, I just sort of like analogy. Yeah.[00:09:49] Nathan:I want to dive into all kinds of things. I want to talk about, more in the financial world and the business of that and everything else. But back and maybe start earlier in your career.[00:10:01] Kimberly:Than elementary school.[00:10:04] Nathan:I guess we didn't go to elementary school a little bit after elementary school. What what did the early days of your career look like[00:10:12] Kimberly:I was a, you know, I'm a first, or I guess I'm a second generation American, so, and I'm Jewish. So of course I was supposed to be a doctor. So my, we used to get, you can be anything you want just as long as you're a surgeon first. So I got the makings of a woman's surgeon and, you know, it was just like, as a book that was a book that I received many times in my middle school years.And then, you know, it was like, that's great, you're so talented. But you know, you really, you know, after you get out of medical school, you can, it was just sort of what you did in my family. And, and my father he was a well-known surgeon and he became an, I don't want to say artist. He became a writer, so he's a well-known writer.And he started writing. So he kind of became an artist before my eyes, you know, so as I was getting out, as I was graduating college, he published his first bestselling. That was just, and I would like sit at the book, you know, when he gave a lecture at an art gallery, because it was called art and physics.His name is Leonard Shlain so I would like sell, watch him, sell the books, you know, like give a lecture and then I would check out and I would get, take people's cash and then give them a book, you know, at the end of the lecture. And he used to tell me, he used to say, honey, you have to be shameless.You have to be willing to just talk in front of four people. It doesn't matter. You just need to do it. If it's just, it was just a big, it did. It made an imprint on me because I was watching him grow out of his own discomfort zone, which I still struggle with of talking to people like instead of through your paintings or, you know, talking to an audience saying being on video, it took me six months to figure out how to be on video, but I'm getting ahead of it.So you asked me like my CR about my career. So I was an English major. I went to an English, major architecture, minor at UC Berkeley. And at the time that I was graduating, painting was considered dead. And I know that that for artists today, they don't quite appreciate that. But after abstract expressionism, there was sort of this mood in the art world that everything had been done and like, forget about figuration was the last thing people wanted to see, you know, and I wanted to paint people.So I just figured, okay, I'm going to just do that on my own, but I'm going to, I love reading. I love writing. So I became an English major and I was valedictorian of, of the UC Berkeley English department. And so my first job, I wanted to combine my love for art and literature. So my first job was.Design. So my, so I, was mentored by a gentleman named Walter Lander, who is the founder of landlord associates. And he was sort of the west coast, Milton Glaser, Milton Glaser from a design point of view, like he was, he just recently passed in the last five or so years, but he like did the, I love New York, you know, like he's this famous, famous graphic designer because the field of graphic design is, is relatively new.It's relatively, it's like a century old, you know, like th the serious field of it. And Walter was a pioneer in it. And he did, you know, my first job was like working cause I, cause I minored in architecture was, helping design the shell oil, gas station, you know,So I was doing like architecture design, and then he asked me to write speeches.And so they had, their company was kind of designed like a brain. So they had like a language division and they had like the design division, like they did the loose soon milk and they were so famous then such leaders. They had 1800 people in offices all over the world and it was like a big deal. And they had an office on a ferry boat.So that was my first job out of college. I was a speech writer for Walter and I was in the, I was in the word department. Like I think I designed, I helped name, a cigarette, you know, like was just a weird, but it was fascinating, you know? And it was meeting fascinating people. The grateful dead would like come over on the boat after it was, it was, it was a wild time at, in San Francisco in the late eighties, early nineties.Totally wild. So, So I was like, so all the designers are starting to learn Photoshop. So there was this thing called Photoshop because they were doing everything by hand, you know? And then I was like, oh, so I got Photoshop 1.0, you know, and then I had th there was no layers. So you had to do everything in alpha channels.And it's interesting just to be a big nerd. Cause you're a designer too, right? I mean that's yeah. Yeah. So if you can try to imagine there was Photoshop without layers, it meant that you had to do everything inside the masking tool that's built in that nobody really uses or knows about now called alpha channels.So I had to create everything using masks, but it was very oddly more similar to what you did with your Exacto knife and ruler, know, I still think one of the biggest, the saddest things about Photoshop. I mean, I think everybody should know it, but it has some feature bloat, but I think it kind of buries the power of alpha channels.And I think that if people knew how to use it, it would like, it's like a little thing to know that would hugely leap them out of the more artificial aspects of doing those filters on things.[00:16:00] Nathan:Right.[00:16:01] Kimberly:Anyway, like I you have to be careful with me because I can go into real. I can crawl real deep into these nerdy things.But anyway,[00:16:08] Nathan:Are there other things from those early days of, of the graphic design art agency, like that kind of world, that you still take with you today[00:16:19] Kimberly:Thousands of Gillian percent. One of them is the four DS that every project is discover, design develop, deploy. And I know I lost that. I also saw that, like, if you could name it, you could charge it.[00:16:32] Nathan:Is there a story behind that? If you could name it, you could charge for it.[00:16:35] Kimberly:You know, you'd see these hundreds of thousands of million dollar contracts going out to these major people. And I used to have to help write the proposals and I would see how they would divide they'd phase out, like a lot of designers. Again, I don't, I hope we're so not too off topic, but a lot of designers will not charge for discovery.You know what I mean? Because they haven't named it. They didn't name it They'd Just be like, oh, let me Research all about your company. And then you're going to pay me to give you some designs, and then I'll give you the designs and then hopefully they're smarter. Anyway, like I said, big, big topic.[00:17:10] Nathan:Yeah. But think there are a lot of people listening who are in the either freelance or agency space and they, provide services to newsletters or creators or they're growing their own on the side. And I think it's a really important point that, if you're if you're structuring your proposals and all your interactions with clients around the deliverable, then you're failing to talk about a substantial portion of the work And probably the part of the work that differentiates you from the other freelancers who are just like, oh, you need a logo. And they dive like right into Photoshop or whatever tool. Whereas if you're good at what you do, you're probably taking a step back and looking at the whole landscape and spending probably more than half of your time in that Research discovery and learning stage rather than the deliverable stage.[00:17:56] Kimberly:It's actually the most important time intensive stage of any project. And so not just design. I mean, I think you saw my Ted talk, the creative process in eight stages. And I think I talked about how as an artist, I don't want to give anybody whiplash, but like you, as an artist, you have, a period of time where it's like a rest in music where you don't, you're not making work.It doesn't look like you're doing anything on the outside, but that's the most important part. And it's when. Gathering, but you're doing it in a subconscious, like in many different ways when I'm, when I'm making a painting, I'm having to listen a lot, you know, you have to listen and look and just inhale before you can exhale.So anyway, that, but I mean, we could, I think, I think we could do a whole hour on Landour. Cause that was just a, such an interesting, you know? And, and I was actually, I was actually there, I dunno. Well, you're, you probably weren't born, but there was a, Coke released a new design and they, they, and Landour was the leader of this new design.And I was like in the boardroom, in my. In pantyhose. Cause that's what we that's what, like you had aware that it was very far, it was like mad men. It was like mad men where like everybody smoked and the women were gorgeous and the men would like have these glass offices on the side of the boat. And they would like go in and light up a cigarette and call London, you know, like they were like, or Japan and, and they had, it was just extreme, chic, crazy environment, very male dominated.And I was like, I'll often the lone woman in a room, you know, but anyway, that's a separate side conversation and they were introducing the new Coke and it was a flop. It was like, it was like, there was a backlash against the new design because it had like big fat. It was like, whereas the old Coke kind of has that Victorian, which they still use now that, that very Sarah fee or Nate almost like your create above your head, but more, you know, whereas.Where the new version they were doing was super kind of chunky. It was like new Coke, you know, anyway. But, it was a wild experience. I wrote an essay about it and I'll, I'll give it to you if you, if[00:20:35] Nathan:Yeah, we'll put it the Shona[00:20:36] Kimberly:Yeah,[00:20:38] Nathan:On time on that.[00:20:39] Kimberly:Yeah, no, the whole, here's the thing. I wanted to be an artist, and a lot of times I believe a lot of, and I believe there's a lot of people who have an artist inside them and a lot of times they will, work in a field that brings them near art decisions to make themselves feel better.That they're not being an actual artist. And I was one of those people.[00:21:08] Nathan:Okay. So how did that play out for you of your you're close to the design and that sort of[00:21:14] Kimberly:I was like, yeah, it was, I couldn't be closer. I was like, I was like in, I was behind the curtain of Oz doing the, with the, with the best people and everything. Again, this is so long ago, but, but I felt like technology at the time, again, Photoshop was just starting. There was no whatever. I was like, you know, I needed, I need a break.I need to like push the table over. So I quit. I moved to Paris to paint for a year. I played piano in bars at night. That was like a whole other wild. We could do a whole show on that, but, you know, then I was like, well, I can't, I'm not going to be able to make a living doing this. Like I was painting, I was sitting at the sore bone and I was like, I had this little gig in this bar, but it was a couple of Franks and I wasn't legal in Paris.And I just had this big because of my literature background I have does such a, you know, I love you. I was so somewhat of afraid.[00:22:11] Nathan:So how old were you when you[00:22:14] Kimberly:I was in my early twenties.[00:22:16] Nathan:Okay. When you, quit and said it's time to do painting.[00:22:20] Kimberly:Yeah. I was like, it wasn't a straight line. And that's another thing. Like most artists don't like some artists grow up and everybody goes, oh, you're so talented.Which by the way, like hate that expression. I must like tell people, like don't ever tell people they're talented. Say you have great raw material, you know, just say, you know, just like great mom material, but like, you have to like do it for eight hours a day in order to like express something. Great. And then, then we'll talk about talent, but in any case, so some people have parents that say, you're honey, you're so talented.I want to send you to art school. I want to spend a couple hundred grand and I'm going to send you to art school. Undergrad, let's say a good, let's say a typical artist, a college education is this amount. And then I want you to get an MFA from Yale or the best school and have that checked off. And then I want you to go get in galleries and be an artist there's 0.01% of artists have that route.They have parents that say, we support this. This is good. This is a good plan. I would say that's like a very rarefied small group. Cause you have to have, well, there's so many things that need to happen in order to have that setup. Most people, most artists, even artists that I know, like one of my good friends Enrique he was a PA getting his PhD in physics read my dad's book, art and physics and decided he wanted to be a painter[00:23:49] Nathan:Okay,[00:23:50] Kimberly:So like, there's a whole bunch of artists that were doctors that were lawyer, you know, that, that, that they, they were catching the train of you know, the I'm a good student, I'm a diligent worker and they, they, you get routed onto a track and then you're on that track. And then suddenly you wake up at at 30 or whatever, and you say, you know, I'm here and I'm super successful, but this isn't necessarily really how I want to be spending my time.You know? I mean, th this is the conversation, right? You know, how do you, how do you decide and what you can want changes in your life? You know, but if you know what you're pull, the tether poll is like, if you know what, your deep inner core desires. are And, you know, and you, you have, you're remotely in touch with that and you, you need to go, you need to go towards that light.You need to go towards that center then everything will radiate out from you afterwards.[00:24:58] Nathan:Was there a catalyst that pushed you, you know, you were thinking about it, you're feeling this, but what was the thing that made you go like, all right, I'm[00:25:06] Kimberly:Well, okay. Like I said, we don't have enough time to get into all of this, but there were, I made three huge dramatic, you know what? I don't know. Maybe it's a Monty Python movie, I don't know. But like when you push the table over and you throw all the plates and you break everything, like you just come, it's not a reboot, it's way more violent than that.Just kind of like you take the tablecloth out and you just say I'm out of here. You know, I think I did that three times before I got closer to. You know what it is. And one of them was moving to LA after moving to Paris, I moved to New York and then, then I moved to LA and I was like, okay, this time is going to be it I'm being artist.Like, and you know, it's a couple of years later, it's after Paris. Like, you know, cause you have to get, you have to, I had to make money. You know, I had to make a, I had to have a job. And so I had to kind of like do, do design work and stuff like that. So when I moved to LA, my first, I went to a Mac conference, like it was like 60 booths.It was so small, like Mac was seen a teeny little thing and, and Microsoft was the big thing windows and,[00:26:18] Nathan:Yeah.[00:26:19] Kimberly:And I made a business cards and I said, it said artist. And then when I, I walked, went to this conference and I was practically like often the only woman, you know, and I would say, yeah, I'm an artist.And I know. And so the first job I got was making the first CD rom for apple computer that they said distributed to every single apple. So they distributed over 2 million copies worldwide, and my name was on it. And that kind of, that was a huge breakthrough because suddenly I was being offered insane jobs.And next thing you know, I was anyway, like, I don't want to dwell on this because we haven't talked about newsletters yet.[00:27:01] Nathan:That is okay. that is okay. So you just made a leap from, I went to this conference to,[00:27:08] Kimberly:Yeah, by the way speaking, we started with going to a conference.Yeah.[00:27:12] Nathan:A big deal. We are we talking about that as well, but this leap from going to the conference to your work, being on the CD,[00:27:19] Kimberly:Well, so they were, it was like, again, I was on the bleeding edge. I could not explain to my father Who would come down and visit me. In the warehouse. I, it was, it was an artist and a coder who, but they had both met in art school and they brought me on to be the creative director.And it was like, it was almost no money at first. And then it became like a bigger thing and apple, the more that apple saw it, the more they were like, wow, this is really good. so then the next conference I went to was in San Francisco was Macworld and my art was everywhere, everywhere, and I got job offers from Imagineering. They wanted me to design why the Disney, they wanted to be the head. Of Warner music was doing a new interactive division and digital don't digital.I can't remember the names, but it was very, it was a very heady time. It was very, it was very fun. I felt like, wow, I found this place that has it's the intersection of art design, narrative and technology. And it was exactly where I want it to be. And that was just, that was sort of, and I set up an easel in my office, I had a lot of people working for me and it was just, it got very, it got very fancy, you know, and I, and I took a lot of, I took a lot of like what I knew at Landour to attach in this before email this before the internet.[00:28:45] Nathan:You're talking early nineties at this point,[00:28:48] Kimberly:Yeah. Like you no, like a mid yeah. Mid nineties, you know, 96, maybe. So, yeah. So I took a lot of my, knowledge that I gleaned from working at land or like the discover design develop, deploy to whip these engineers and designers into shape, you know? And anyway, I was still stalking what I really wanted to do, you know?[00:29:10] Nathan:Okay. So tell me more about the difference between what you wanted to do and what you were doing, because you just described your art being on everything.[00:29:17] Kimberly:No, no, no, actually, honestly, honestly like I would listen to like Liz fairs, exile in Guyville, as I drove downtown by the toy factory in downtown Los Angeles back and forth, like every day, like at these, I was a big album listener.And when I was designing, I would listen to full albums and I was just like, wow, this is it. I am so excited and energized and everything. then I started studying painting again. So I started so like I had taken a hiatus. And then I got into the, Otis, which is the art school here, You know, when you get professional, when you become a professional in anything, even being an artist, there's a, single-minded rigor focus and clarity. one brings their whole self to what they're doing, you know? And if you know that if If you've been successful in anything else or anything like that, you can, if you bring that to your art, there's literally nothing that can stop.You. You become a wire cutter. It's like, you're going to munch through like, I, you know, really understanding, painting in the deepest way possible. Like I was thinking if I can understand alpha channels, I can figure out how to tone a canvas. You know, just like I just, because painting is a technology, honestly.I took everything in my being to it. And that was like a third moment. Like that was like another moment I skipped some moments, but there was like where I was knocking at the door, knocking at the door. And then I knew that in my art would become the, that I had when I started painting in full force.Like not just having it in my office, but saying this is what I'm going to do. And I'm going to do it as so ferociously, like stand back, everybody, nothing is going to get in my way.[00:31:13] Nathan:So you were painting, I mean, you had is this like painting a few hours a week, a few hours a day, and then you dove into doing that, just like.[00:31:22] Kimberly:This is like 40 hours. I mean, I basically gave myself an assignment and my assignment was I was going to paint a hundred new. Because that's the hardest thing to do as a body. Cause you have to deal with the translucency of skin. And I could literally talk about painting all day, but you have to deal with light form and shadow and thinking in three dimensions and it creates it's.I don't want to knock marketing and technology and the stuff that you do, but painting is that most people do, but painting is a true, like you have to really, it's a very intellectual as well as mindful and spiritual, but it's a very, it's a very deep, deep, deep way to approach the world. And when you become a painter or you actually like listen to the little voice inside you that says that they want to learn this.It's a skill, it's a skill. And when you do that, your brain expands and your world expands and you see things differently. So it's a very transformative thing and it takes years. It takes years and years. So my assignment was I'm going to paint a hundred nudes and, and if I have like 10 good ones, I can have a show.[00:32:41] Nathan:So I want to tie that to maybe the experience that other creators listening would have, or anyone who's on the fence about getting started. Right. It might not be painting that they're trying to do, but they've had these fits and starts of like, I'm going to, learn to code, start a podcast, start a newsletter, any of these things, you know, learning to play an instrument, whatever it is.And then like start and it goes, maybe it goes well for a week or a month, or like what, what advice would you[00:33:11] Kimberly:Isn't there, isn't there like a guru isn't there like a guru in the subject that calls it, the. Who's that guy. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Somebody told me that, cause I was saying this to somebody and they were like, oh yeah, that's somebody's Seth, Godin's the dip. But yes. You know, when I was younger and all through all through my, you know, middle school and high school and college, I played piano quite seriously.I was a classical pianist and whenever I would learn a difficult piece, I would play it over and over and over again. And I would have to, like, I would start to suck. I would get better, but then I would start to suck and I'd have to walk away and then come back at it the next day before I would be able to play it perfectly.Like, I mean, you know,[00:34:01] Nathan:Yeah.[00:34:04] Kimberly:Learning an instrument actually teaches you this better than anything, because if you make a painting at first and it sucks, you can be easily thwarted, like a, you know, a drawing or whatever. But, but in order to like worry the bone of like how to get that legato, right. And that Greek piano concerto or something like you got to just sort of do it again and again, and again and again, you know, like it's, the fundamental way to learn is you, you imitate, assimilate, and then you can improvise.So you have to like, you play these pieces. And so with anything, you're going to be thwarted in the beginning many times and you can't give up, you have to say, okay, well, I don't care if it even sucks. I don't care if I'm going to fail. If I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna fail big. Like I'm[00:34:52] Nathan:Right[00:34:52] Kimberly:Go all out.Let's just go on.[00:34:54] Nathan:But that specific assignment that you gave yourself of painting 100 nudes, do you think that an assignment like that is a good way to go as a creator of saying this is the commitment that I'm going to make, I'm going to get to a hundred podcast episodes or I'm going to, I don't know, write a hundred blog posts, and then I can decide if this is something I actually want to pursue.[00:35:13] Kimberly:Absolutely. I think that when you make a commitment like that, to devote your energy into building a body of work of any kind in any media, you, your life will change everything. You are going to gain skills that involve every facet of that media. So like, if you're a podcaster and let's say you record in iMovie you're going to learn iMovie or whatever they, whatever they edit podcasts.In And, and I think if, you know, if Leonardo DaVinci were alive today, trusts me. He would know Photoshop He would know he would be all over this stuff, you know, he would love, he would love it in this nether world space, because there's, I'm, I'm going off topic a little bit because there's a little bit of a prejudice in the art world where people were thinking they were resisting the newer technological versions of artwork.But back to process, what you were saying is that if you do something in a committed way and you basically measure it and say, I'm going to do it until I get to this point, I think a hundred might be excessive, but you're going to get the hang of it.[00:36:28] Nathan:Yeah[00:36:28] Kimberly:I mean, I haven't mixed feelings though, about blogging cause I started a blog again, when I was, really getting into.Consuming. I mean, consuming isn't the right word. When I was throwing my entire body into the art world, one of the things that I did to expand my own knowledge was to write about other artists. And I think that's also something that's super unspoken, especially in the art world, because a lot of artists are just saying Me me me I want attention.I want to get people to focus on my show and my work, and I want a gallery and I want this and that. And I think one of the most important, aspects of breaking through to any next level of anything is generosity. Generosity of your attention to other people who are doing the same thing. And that for me, that general, I mean, I didn't think of this.This is red, this is a in retrospect, but at the time when I look back on it, I was airlifting artists that nobody had heard of and writing about them along with other big art, you know? And so I had a successful weekly column where I was keeping a blog again, this was before social media and that's how, and then the Huffington post came along and then I started publishing it, the, having a post.And that's how I said, I was asked by Arianna Huffington to be the, to found an art section. And so I was like, I was perfectly positioned because I was, I was a big nerd. I had had these other experiences. I was a full-on painter. I was having shows galleries the whole thing. And then she was building this incredible Site to celebrate bloggers. And I was one of the bloggers So I had to build an audience from zero to 10 million people within two years. I didn't have to that's what happened.[00:38:26] Nathan:Right.I have so many things that I want to ask about in this, one thing that I want to highlight that you talked about is as you're doing the painting, there's the side of it, of, Research where you're researching other painters, learning from them and all that. Most people keep that Research to themselves, right?That is not a public thing that happens. And I think a lot of the most successful creators that I see are the ones who do that recent. And, and share their notes and share that and work in public and do the interviews and all of that that you were doing. because it does a couple things. One people follow you, not only for your own work, but then also for your notes on other people.And then too, it's incredible for meeting people. Like when you do a profile, either if they're a, say an upcoming artist or someone who's established either way, they're going to be like, when you, you know, when you send them an email, they'll like respond and be interested and engaged. And, you know, I mean, that's a reason that I do this podcast is so that I can meet and hang out with people that I want to more aboutIt's amazing for network.[00:39:30] Kimberly:Yes. I think you're exactly spot on. This is no different than what I did with artists, this, except for I wasn't involving video, I was writing about it and interviewing them. You're right. You're absolutely right. I also think that you can get too carried away with that though. Like you have to be careful, you have to make sure that you're, you know, I can become easily like Clydesdale the horse.I'm like, well, that's another month and I have to do another,[00:39:57] Nathan:It becomes more important than the art, which was the[00:40:00] Kimberly:Well, yeah,[00:40:01] Nathan:It feels more time than[00:40:02] Kimberly:Yeah, yeah. Like, so eventually I had to leave, because it was just sort of eclipsing. It became so much bigger than everything else I was doing that I had to like go, okay, this isn't, you know, I've got a show coming up. I can't devote all this time and energy. And then of course, social media kind of made it all really different.[00:40:24] Nathan:Like in what way?[00:40:25] Kimberly:Well, because not only we could, you know, writing a really thoughtful piece about an artist and looking at their work and, you know, relating it with art history. And I also found that if I could relate it to like a contemporary event, like there was this one painter who painted battle scenes and we were just going to war with Iraq, I think, anyway, we were going to war somewhere.You know, it was a horrible time, but like, I would talk about going, you know, this contemporary news event. And I would link it with the artist who was painting these battle scenes. And then seeing that it went, go.[00:41:04] Nathan:Right.[00:41:04] Kimberly:Was another, that was another big learning lesson is like, if you put a number in a headline, like 10 things, you, you should tell, you know, 10 rules for your kids and screens, you know, then people would read that more.So I could see the analytics of what people clicked on. You know, that was like a interesting learning experience. But when social media happened, then suddenly you also had to tweet it. You had to post it on Facebook and then you had to tweet about it and then it just got to be social media. here's my take, if I could just say one thing, because I want to get it out there.I think social media is great for first impressions so that when people see you for the first time they're going to go that person's like a real artist or they're a real whatever, and they're legit. And they don't just have like three things that they've said about the subject. They've actually like, I trust that they've done some deep things.Like me painting a hundred nudes, you know, like this person knows how to paint.So I think social media, it's just so easy to get carried away. I hope one day it goes away. Is that terrible to say? I think emails should be everything. It should just go away.[00:42:14] Nathan:I don't think it's terrible to say at all. You have something in your Ted talk. you talked about like the compulsion to paint being taken away by your smartphone and these distractions, And I'd love for you to talk about that because I think there's so many things of like, if I'm on Twitter or checking my email, or even interacting with the ConvertKit team 2,700 times a day, you know, it makes it so much harder as a creator.And so I like, I just want to hear more of your experience there.[00:42:45] Kimberly:Well, I mean, in order to even get into my zone mentally to paint, I have to like have at least 90 minutes where I haven't spoken with anybody. Like I just need to kind of like clear it. Like I need to, I mean, I can be in it and I've got all these, you know, because people everybody's different. Some people like beginnings, some people like middles, other people's like ends.So you have to get in touch with which person you are, you know? So I, I love middles and beginning. I actually like all of them, but like, I'm better at certain things. So whenever I go into the studio, I have to start in paintings that are in the middle, that many going on at once. so you have to get in touch with like what time of day you're best at.And I always begin things at the end of the day when I'm already like nice and a well-oiled machine, well-oiled creating Machine.I never begin things in the morning. I always begin. at the end of the day, I never begin paintings in the morning. I was beginning, you know, I mean, I, I'm not, I know I'm not answering your question.Your question is, compartmentalizing your time to protect it away from social media. I teach a master class and I teach a Masterclass with artists who are building their first body of work, or they, they want to build a body of work in the masterclass.I make them take an oath an Instagram oath Instagram is it's so draining psychologically, emotionally, mentally, and the effort that you put into it that you really have to like commit and, and, and artists feel pressure to post their progress and post once a day and stuff like that.And the truth is, that algorithm, the algorithm is so fraught right now because you really only see the last 20 people that you liked more often than not. And you're not, it it's just, it's not healthy. It's not healthy for a visual artist Because you'll be on it. You check it like a diabetic checking their insulin level.It's just like, oh, did it get enough? Likes all that. It's like, Ugh. So I use, later to post once a week because I don't really want to deal with it. So I'll do like four months at a time. But if like I have a museum show opening up on Saturday, so I have to make a post this week. And so that that's like in my brain, oh God, I got to make a post this week.And when my book was coming out, like that's a whole other topic about promote, you know, how to tell people and that a book is coming out. yeah. So I just kind of look at it like, you know, kind of like a creative sinkhole,[00:45:15] Nathan:Yeah. And so it[00:45:15] Kimberly:So it[00:45:15] Nathan:Makes sense to avoid it. I think we hear that advice from a lot of talented creators and it's easy to be like, yeah. Yeah. But I can, I'm the person who can sit down and write with a moment's notice, you know? And then you you get totally stuck on writer's block or whatever thing, because you're like, you actually didn't create that space.And, like you talked about in the Ted talk of that time to like daydream and to actually be there, present with yourself and your thoughts.[00:45:42] Kimberly:Yeah, it's true. I mean, there's this thing in neuroscience called empathetic mirroring. Do you know about[00:45:48] Nathan:I don't know.[00:45:49] Kimberly:It's this, it's like when you see somebody, for example, write on a chalkboard, the neurons in your brain, I'm not going to say this. Right? So if a neuroscientist says I'm like slightly wrong, but like, it, it, it has this effect where you feel like you're doing it, you know, like, and it's, that's why people love to watch people write things.That's why a chalkboard is an excellent device for, I actually have a chalkboard in my office because I started to. Take videos of me make with my talking points of me writing it on a chalkboard, because even though it's considered like, you know, yesteryear technology, it actually helps people receive the information better to see it written[00:46:34] Nathan:Rather than being next[00:46:36] Kimberly:Rather than just show a PowerPoint slide.Yeah. And so this, the act of seeing it rhythm, but so if, if you think about the power of empathetic mirroring, that's going on in your brain, when you look at something happening, think about how much it can pollute your brain. If you're watching a stream of all these things happening in your Instagram feed or your Facebook feed, it's like dangerous.Like you have to be protective of what is going inside your mind. It's that they say like garbage in, garbage out, you know,[00:47:04] Nathan:I want to hear about you getting into the world of, of like teaching classes and that side of it, and then you have a book as well. There's a lot.[00:47:12] Kimberly:Oh yes. So I have this book,[00:47:15] Nathan:There[00:47:15] Kimberly:So, you know, around a decade into, you know, being a serious painter, I started to feel bad from the fumes because painting isn't really taught the way other things are taught. Painting is sort of like, there's, there's been this somewhat mystical, you know, here's a bunch of art supplies go to the art store and then let's see what you come up with.And then the, the, the classes tend to be more about critiques, about what you've done versus about,[00:47:45] Nathan:How do something.[00:47:46] Kimberly:About the, the true, true granular house, you know, the, how, like the basics, like things that you should know. And, so I started to get sick and I happened to be the arts editor at the time of the Huffington post.And I reached out to, and blogging was a very interesting, it was around 2004 or five, I think. Maybe, maybe it was a little bit later, but it was an interesting time because other people were thinking what I was thinking and I could see it in search for it. Whereas I couldn't, I couldn't have done that a decade earlier.And so I would reach out to leaders in the field, scientists, whatnot, to write about this topic of safety, you know, like that. And, but then when I read and I had, by the way, been consuming, Disneyland books, everything about painting, and I just saw this huge gaping hole of knowledge of how. Communicated. So I started writing this book all about painting and the book that I ended up publishing with Chronicle books is just one small piece of it because it was kind of too big.It was like James Joyce's Ulysses, you know, it was like a tone. It was like a Magnum Opus. and it's one of the key things that people don't realize is that you don't need to use solvent's P many people believe that you need to have like an open can of turpentine or some kind of solvent to dip your brush and defend the oil paint.So it's like super basic and most people when they go to the art store, and this is just my short, my short, skinny on the book. As most people, when they go to the art store, it would be like only buying canned or prepackaged. They don't know what's in it, you know, they don't know like that you don't need all those things.Like, but if you were like learning how to cook, you would know the difference between a garlic and a shallot and when to use canola oil or olive oil extra-virgin, you know, so I wanted to create, to start a book called the Y that was like Strunk and White's elements of style, but for oil paintings. So that's like the famous book that most writers use and just sort of shows you.And it's funny, actually, it's like a great book. So I wrote that book and that's called the new oil painting and it's published by Chronicle and it came out in June and it's like staying at the top, like five books of oil painting, which is great, you know? So I'm very excited about that. But in any way, in that journey of writing the book, the book, the book deal I got was two years ago.It was like a while ago. And so Susan. Did that I thought, you know, I would be a fool to not have a class that went with the book. So to the summer of 2019, I had, I had like four solo exhibitions in a row and I thought, okay, I'm going to devote six months and I'm going to record videos and I'm going to do that.You know? So I created this class that I wish that I had, and it was way bigger than the book. It was like everything I've ever thought about oil painting and that's called oil painting, fluency and flow. And, so yeah, so I launched a class, so the classes are out there[00:50:52] Nathan:Are the classes something that, you know, you're teaching in an online course? Are you there in person or through a partnership with.[00:50:58] Kimberly:So once I, once I learned about. That you can oil paint anywhere like you, Nathan tomorrow could decide, you know what? I w I've got an artist in me. I want to, I want to learn how to paint and you could set it up next year, you know, like in a little side table next to your computer, and there would be no fumes, no nothing.And it's much better for the environment it's not made out of plastic. It's like, you know, you could do it. So I wanted to get the word out. And, so my first class is, and so I was started teaching at major institutions. So the Anderson ranch in Colorado and the Otis where I actually took lessons, I taught there.And then, I just thought to myself, you know, this is highly inefficient because I have to like schlep over there and go there for, you know, hours at a time. And I could reach so many more people if I recorded. Instruction. And so I made these recordings, that's a hybrid of recordings and live sessions and critiques.And I have, you know, I have about 78 students right now. They're from all over the world and it's like the boast enriching wonderful, fabulous thing I've ever done[00:52:08] Nathan:Yeah.[00:52:09] Kimberly:To being an artist, you know,[00:52:11] Nathan:And so how does that interact with the newsletter that you have?[00:52:14] Kimberly:Well, I mean, so all of my experience, just as an artist has taught me that you, your value that you bring to any situation is the people that you can tell about what you do. It's like a tree falls in the forest. Nobody knows you're having a show. You know, you can't just rely on your art dealer.And the The dynamic has changed where. People don't have one, rarely do people have one gallery that represents them. And then they've got a bunch of satellite galleries. So you kind of have to be a little bit more entrepreneurial as an artist. And so you need to gather an email list. And so I stopped blogging and instead I have a newsletter because I want, you know, and I I have a narrative of stories that I tell about creativity about, about like I'll crawl deeply inside the making of a single painting of mine, or maybe another one.And I, and each email I send out, I spend a lot of time on, and it's like a work of art by itself because it's, again, it may be a different thing. a newsletter may be slightly different than a blog, but it's still words and image and it's just how. It's like another work of art, it's another work of art.And I love, using ConvertKit. I mean, I really, really do I tell people about it. I tell people about it all the time, because I think it's, it's the first software I've encountered that, allows you to very easily create a sequence. And, you know, you can I tell people, I say like, if you want to think about it, you could unspool Tolstoy's war and peace.If you wanted, like you could, every week you could give like a little section and you can start at the beginning and it takes the pressure off needing to constantly have every email be a first impression. So you can really get, let people to get, to know you in a much deeper, more personal way, because you create a sequence of letters to them that[00:54:23] Nathan:Right[00:54:24] Kimberly:Over time.[00:54:24] Nathan:Well, I think that's a really important point about starting at the beginning, because when you're sending these one-off emails to your newsletter, you don't know where people are joining. Some people for years and other people that is the very first thing. And so every time I find myself adding these caveats are like, Hey, if you're new here, you know, any of those things and with a, an email sequence, you know, the automated series, it starts at the beginning every time and it works people through it.And so I've had that. I've had so much fun creating those because you can chip away at them. Like I have one that I'm kind of writing now on, I guess it's on personal finance, you know? And it's just things that I wish that I had known as like, Moderately successful creator. Like, Hey, you're now earning a full-time living, what what's next?And so I can just write about that when I feel like it and add to this, that's now like 10 or 12 emails long.[00:55:20] Kimberly:And what's your frequent.[00:55:22] Nathan:That one I said to every week, but if I don't write for it, everyone just kind of pulls up at the end and weights, you know, for the next email. So it's 10 emails And then I add to it. And so like last week I didn't add a new one. And so now there's like a hundred people that are all the way at the end and they didn't get an email last week,[00:55:41] Kimberly:Yeah, no, I have that situation. I have a two year sequence[00:55:45] Nathan:Oh, wow.[00:55:45] Kimberly:I mean, I know like I sound, I probably seem super extroverted and voluble and everything like that, but like, I, I, it's very difficult for me to sell. It's very, it's very not. It's not cool for an artist to be. So like, I mean, it's just hard.It's also just hard for me. It's my personality. Like I even posting on Instagram is like a stressful thing for me. It's like, did I get everything that, you know, like I just, it's just not, I'm not one of those people that just casually throw stuff out there. I just, I'm very thoughtful and I want it, you know, it to be meaningful.And, but anyway, I was having trouble announcing that a workshop was over. Like serious trouble. Like I would put it off and I'd say, I can't do it. I can't press the send button. Like I just, even though you have the schedule feature on the broadcast, I was like, I can't do it. I can't do it. And you know, I, I can't remember the name of the marketing guru who was, have the five day sequence or, you know, basically a launch sequence is a series of emails where you first email is all about it.The second email might address one's reservations about it. The third Emile email might be testimonials. And then the fourth and fifth email are like last chance to get it. Like that to me is like, I would rather have needle eyes surgery than do that, you know, so I built it in, so I basically have the sequence where every quarter there's a launch sequence.Is that crazy[00:57:13] Nathan:No, it's fantastic[00:57:14] Kimberly:Because then, so, so that way, like I can just set it and forget it, like back to the Crock-Pot thinking like, you know, like, you know, just set it and forget it. You're going to sign up. You're going to get an announcement for a walk shop, a workshop a couple months after you've gotten to know me.[00:57:30] Nathan:Do you think that, well actually I guess really quick, the thing that I love about that is you can be completely immersed in your painting, right? And there you are selling a workshop and you're like, you don't, you have to think about it or know about it. Cause you did that work once and now you've finished a whole day of, of painting.Start something new at the end of the day. Cause that's the way that you roll. And then also you can say like finish up and check those sales and check that engagement. See, oh, people.[00:57:58] Kimberly:Yyeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's just, it's I think people before they're going to buy anything, need to feel. Most people need to feel, you know, a level of comfort about what that person is about. so, you know, I haven't touched you tube. I haven't really, I honestly, I haven't made, I haven't made a huge effort because I've had the book coming out and I F I ha I had a big exhibition in June because, I designed a series of, excuse me.I designed, I painted a series of abstract paintings, for the cover of the book, because I wanted the cover, the book to be stellar and represent like a specified stroke, like hanging in air, like, to just convey the idea of painting and not be like a landscape, because for some crazy reason, if you, if you look up oil, painting, all the books, About oil painting are so poorly designed.It's like, it's strange because you would think people who are artists would care about design, but it's like pink pallet, Tino, bold 14 point font over like a green sunset. it's[00:59:07] Nathan:Yeah, well, design and painting are not necessarily the same thing you happen to come from a world where you have a lot of this. Even those two worlds have intertwined for you a lot over your career. So it makes sense to[00:59:18] Kimberly:Yes, but, but when, when, but if you get, but the painting books, like if you see a PA a painting book that has like a landscape on it, what if you don't like the landscape or they all have a landscape, or it has like the, the, you know, a face that's loosely drawn with, you know, painted with turbine, you know, Alla prima anyway.I've had so many exhibitions and like, I have a, I have a show coming up on Saturday and I've got to tell people about it. So like, I have to be, I'm already out there as an artist. So I have two different sequences and newsletters. I've got like a workshops for people who express interest in a workshop within the main newsletter.Like if, if, like, I'll say like I have this one great newsletter where the subject line is, who is this gorgeous woman? And then I show a picture cause they used to paint these beautiful renditions of the faces of the Egyptian mummies inside the sarcophagus, like beyond gorgeous. Like if you looked it up, you'd say, oh my God, this most beautiful painting I've ever seen.And it looks a lot like Francesco Clemente, which is an artist that like paint uses the same aspect ratio. It's like, you sort of go, oh, that's where that guy got that idea, you know? But. I'll talk about the pigments and that they used to, like, they used to burn mummies and then take the ashes and make a pigment called mummy brown.I know that sounds really kind of gross, but like, but, but they that's what they did. And I I'll say like, if this interests you, you might be interested in like a workshop. then if they say yes, then they'll go into my workshop sequence and they'll get notified when I open them.[01:01:00] Nathan:Are there other things that you do with email and with your newsletter[01:01:04] Kimberly:Yeah. Like I, like, I really want, I really want people to easily update their preferences. So I created a jot form like that simple select, you know, check box check if you're no longer interested in, workshops. No problem. Let me know. And I don't get enough work. Ominous, but hopefully, hopefully you'll put that feature in soon.[01:01:30] Nathan:We're actually working on building that feature now. So,[01:01:33] Kimberly:Are you kidding? When does it come out[01:01:34] Nathan:It's one of those asking where the paintings are done. It'll be done when it's done.[01:01:40] Kimberly:The other thing that I do is I really think gifts are important. And I think the marketer, the marketing community is really cheesy about it. Like they always do like outtakes from friends for reaction shots.And it's just so horrible, but I mean, it's just corny and you know who I'm talking about, but, you know, anyway, a gift is a beautiful thing because it's a movie that plays automatically and it doesn't have sound and. it can be so beautiful and subtle, you know, so every time I make a news that I usually have like an, it's like a work of art to me, you know?And sometimes if I want to emphasize a word, I'll paint a picture of that word and I'll integrate it in it. So like I really spend, I really love making them special. Yeah. I have one about the creative process and about not, not the Ted talk that you saw, but like I have one that's on the lead up to talking about the masterclass.Where it's called the curse of perfection. And I show, I talk about how, when I was a kid, my mother used to always like, she would sometimes wear like super smudge makeup and it was psych, it was called the smoky eye. I mean, they still do it now, but now the beauty people make it super specific, but then it was not that it was a little bit more like, woo.And I found a beautiful GIF of like a smokey eye, like slowly opening and closing. And I then go off on this whole subject about how, you know, it's as a painter, you have to let go of that, of the chains of perfection. You have to let it go in order to.[01:03:22] Nathan:Yeah. Well, I love that you're taking a medium that you know, of email or gifts or any of these things that a lot of people use in one way. And you're bringing those styles in that like class and sophistication and really just the level of effort. I think a lot of people are like hearing. Oh, I'm supposed to have, images or gifts.I'm supposed to be funny. And so they just look for something and slap it in there. And there's a level of effort that's not happening there, but because you're doing these automated sequences and you know that if you put this effort into it, it will last and work for you for years, then it's worth it.You can do a custom painted, you know, word or something like that to illustrate a point.[01:04:04] Kimberly:I mean, I have the luxury of having hundreds of paintings, and pieces of paintings, and video of—there's nothing sexier and more beautiful than watching somebody mix paint. There's literally nothing more gorgeous than that—So, I'm lucky.And I understand that other creators have to find other things, but there's a way to do things that have like a metaphorical—I here's what I would say. I would recommend that people seek to enhance their ability to think in metaphor when they write.So if they're gonna talk about a subject, and they're talking about a roadblock, instead of drawing a boulder on a road, find some other image or GIF. I use a lot of GIFs from ballet. You can find beautiful GIFs just by searching “Swan Lake” GIF, and it implies a physical movement.It goes back into that empathetic mirroring, where you feel that your own body is doing these movements that are surrounding this idea. It's not directly about what you're talking about, but it's like a little bit to the left, or it's just kind of a metaphorical version of it. It creates the space in between what you're literally saying, and what you're actually seeing that ignites the imagination and the view.[01:05:35] Nathan:Yeah. I love that. Just putting that extra bit of effort into defining the thing that's adjacent, rather than blatantly the first thing that came to mind. I think that makes a huge difference.[01:05:46] Kimberly:Yeah,[01:05:46] Nathan:We need to do a part two, because I have like 25 more questions to ask you, and we're out of time.[01:05:52] Kimberly:I'm in. I'm in.[01:05:54] Nathan:This has been amazing. Where should people go to subscribe to the newsletter?[01:05:58] Kimberly:They should go to KimberlyBrooks.com. The newsletter's right there in the footer and on the top. I really love communicating this way, and it's been an honor to be on this podcast, because I really love the product you've created. I really couldn't do it without you—without ConvertKit.So, I just, I'm such a fan, and I'm an evangelist, so kudos to you.[01:06:19] Nathan:Wow, thank you.Well, we're exci
Your company culture is more than just having a drink after work on Fridays or having foosball tables in the breakroom. It defines and shapes your work environment, and it's created by all of the programs, communications, and behaviors within your organization, not to mention your business goals and values. Building a good organizational culture takes time and effort. *** Are you interested in starting or growing a podcast AND business with the support of my team and a community of experienced podcasters? Join my Podcaster Pod. You get... Full access to my 8-module podcasting course taking you from idea to launch and everything in between. Equipment and tech, Recording and publishing. Scripts and templates. Everything! Access to me, my team, and a group of experienced podcasters through a private Slack channel Monthly Q&A calls with me and the other Podcaster Pod members. Quarterly Expert Calls Access to me and my network –– meaning I will introduce you to other influencers and people who can help you where it makes sense. Consider joining my new membership site for $27/month. Go to https://dannyozment.com/pod Use code JOINPODPOD to get a 1-month free trial. *** Do you have a website for your business or personal brand or are you building one? If so, then you need WPX hosting. I use WPX for all of my sites and so do many of our clients. For $25/month, WPX's Business Plan gives you Hosting for 5 Websites 10 GB Storage 100 GB Bandwidth Free SSL certificates The WPX Cloud Content Delivery Network They average around 30 second support response time 24/7/365 around the world Provide free unlimited site migration from any host to WPX, usually completed within 24 hours And they are fast because they never overload servers with hosting accounts, unlike so-called 'cheap' hosting which crumbles under any traffic load Sign up for the WPX Business Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/wpx *** Are you building an email list for your business or personal brand? If so, then you need ConvertKit. I use ConvertKit for my list and so do most of our clients. For $29/month, ConvertKit's Creator Plan manages up to 1,000 subscribers Provides unlimited landing pages & forms Sends email broadcasts Provides the ability to Sell digital products & subscriptions Has super fast Email support AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... Gives you Free migration from another tool AND Automated funnels & sequences Get a free 14-day trial of the Creator Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/convertkit *** My Recommended Resources - https://dannyozment.com/resources
According to a recent Wall Street Journal article, the top one percent of streamers on Twitch earn more than half of all revenue generated on the site. Does this surprise you? Discourage you as an emerging creator? Or does it inspire you to stay the course and keep hustling until you find yourself in that top one percent?In this episode, Haley, Miguel, and guest Ben Schoeffler, a content creator and Support Operations Lead at ConvertKit, discuss their viewpoints on the creator economy and the opportunities and restrictions all creators face when it comes to earning money and truly owning an audience. Whether you're an all-in creator or stay true to the side hustle, you can flourish in the creator economy, or at least boost your chances of reaping the financial benefits. “Whatever side hustle you feel like doing, make sure it's something that you enjoy, because there's a good chance, a very good chance, you won't make very much money at all.” ~ @BenSchoefflerMain takeaways [06:59] It's important to own your audience outside of the various platforms so that you aren't relying on a handful of apps for financial support. [08:27] Aside from owning your audience, it's also important to diversify your income streams. If one platform dies, that shouldn't derail your entire business model. [12:19] Although many creators aren't making a full-time income, it's important not to discount the significance of earning cash on the side every month, even in small amounts. [18:52] Making money and becoming business savvy are skill sets many creators lack, but you must learn how to sell your creativity while continuing to create if you plan to grow your side hustle. [21:29] No matter where you are in your creator career, it's important to stay the course. Avoid the urge to constantly bounce from one specialty to another, and stay consistent in producing the work you do best. The highest earning creators on Twitch are the ones who stayed the course. Connect with our hosts Miguel Pou Haley Janicek Ben Schoeffler Links Watch The Future Belongs to Creators on YouTube Twitch Twitch Data Leak Shows Some Streamers Make Hundreds of Thousands Per Month Instagram Facebook WhatsApp Amouranth DrDisRespect YouTube Charli on Twitch Happy Happy Houseplant HeatherJustCreate The Future Belongs To Creators 135: Jack Of All Trades vs. Specialist...As A Creator? Apex Legends Floret Flowers Magnolia Network Marie Forleo Got a story to tell on The Future Belongs to Creators podcast?We'd love to have you on the show to talk about successes or failures you've experienced on your creator journey. Submit your story here!Start building your audience for freeWith ConvertKit landing pages, you can build a beautiful page for your project in just a few minutes. Choose colors, add photos, build a custom opt-in form, and add your copy. All without writing any code! Check out landingpages.new to get started.Stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Twitter Facebook Instagram
Raise your hand if you have a million and one ideas and can't figure out which one to actually work on?! You're in luck - because I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Let's talk about how to get started when you're struggling with all the ideas! P.S. - Don't forget that TODAY is the last day to enroll in my course, Coursecademy™, and get some amazing bonuses! Learn more right here: https://getcoursecademy.com/ Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicaco
My guest on this episode is music industry veteran, Jay Gilbert. Jay wears a lot of hats. He's a musician, photographer, marketer, speaker, and music executive. Jay has worked as a creative consultant to many record companies and artists. He hosts The Music Biz Weekly Podcast, is a Co-founder of Label Logic, and runs the weekly music newsletter Your Morning Coffee.Label Logic helps artists, managers, and labels grow their audience and optimize their presence across all platforms. Jay's newsletter is curated to give a weekly snapshot of the new music business. It's everything you need to know, delivered to your inbox every Friday morning.I talk with Jay about his shift to being a content creator. We talk about life as a musician, working in the music industry, and being a photographer. We also talk about his management company, and his advice for creators wanting to build their audience. Jay also shares some behind the scenes stories, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Simple hacks to grow your newsletter Defining and reaching your target audience Low-budget tricks to instantly add new subscribers Jay's #1 metric for becoming a successful creator Links & Resources ConvertKit Ben Barnes People Jeff Moscow Travis Tritt Ali Abdaal ConvertKit's Creator Sessions Music Connect (MRC) Chartmetric Viberate Soundcharts Pollstar Cherie Hu Amber Horsburgh Glenn Peoples Bobby Owsinski Bruce Houghton Hypebot Sound & Vision Music Technology Policy Nancy Wilson Roblox Jay Gilbert's Links Follow Jay on Twitter Your Morning Coffee newsletter Ben Barnes 11:11 on People.com JayGilbert.net Label Logic The Music Biz Weekly Podcast Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Jay:The harder I work, the luckier I get. You make your own luck. You see these people, and you're like, “Wow, that guy just blew up on TikTok or, Twitch, or on Spotify, or Apple Music!” Sometimes that happens. Not very often, and it usually it's a lot of hard work.[00:00:26] Nathan:In this episode, I talk to Jay Gilbert. Jay's a music industry veteran. He's been at it for a very long time. What I love is that he's also made this shift into being a content creator, as well as being a musician and a photographer. So many incredible things. He's got this newsletter about the music industry called Your Morning Coffee, and he's grown into over 15,000 subscribers.It's the thing that everyone in the music industry is reading every Friday morning. We talk about how he grew that, his passion for the music industry, how the industry has shifted, what's working, what's not. He also runs a management company called Label Logic where they're partnering with, artists and managers, and doing these album releases, and so much else.He's got all these behind the scenes stories, and a lot of advice that is not only for the music industry, but also for any creator looking to build an audience, and endure long enough to get noticed, and to build a brand and everything else. It's really good towards the end.I also sneak in some selfish questions about what would he do to grow ConvertKit; what's his advice for ConvertKit entering the music industry.Jay, welcome to the show.[00:01:39] Jay:Hey, thanks for having me, Nathan. Good morning.[00:01:41] Nathan:Good morning.We'll dive into some of your background, what you're working on now, but you actually had a pretty big project launch today.What did you launch today?[00:01:54] Jay:Well, when you launch a big project, sometimes it's like a wedding. You have all this planning, planning, planning, and then boom, there it is. It was pretty exciting this morning. We've had to keep quiet about this project. It's Ben Barnes, who is a pretty famous actor, but most people don't know he's a brilliant singer songwriter and pianist.We've recorded this really great record. We've got some amazing videos, given his relationships in that area. They're quite special. We launched a window of exclusivity this morning with People Magazine.So, if you go to People.com, you'll see. the video is debuting. It's pretty special, and we're really excited about it. It gets released tomorrow. The song's called 11:11, by Ben Barnes. It's pretty cool. I think you'll dig it.[00:02:53] Nathan:Nice. Yeah. If anyone doesn't recognize the name, Ben Barnes, he plays Prince Caspian. I've been a fan of the Narnia series and all that for a long time. I think my kids actually just rewatched Prince Caspian two weeks ago.[00:03:09] Jay:Have you seen shadow and bone yet?You got to check out shadow and bone. My, my wife and I binged watched it. And he's, he's brilliant in that, but it's a really cool series.[00:03:21] Nathan:Nice. Okay. So maybe with that, of like a snapshot of, of what you just launched, Let's talk about, a little bit about, logic[00:03:32] Jay:Sure.[00:03:33] Nathan:You know, what types of projects you do. And then we can go back to like the road to get.[00:03:38] Jay:Yeah, well, Label Logic was born out of my partner, Jeff Moscow, and I working in the major label ecosystem for years and years. And we finally got to a point where we were meeting one day for coffee and said, you know, we started our own.So we both worked at universal for a long time. He was there 20 years.I was there 18 years. I worked at Warner music, for five years managing Amazon's business for we at ADA, globally, which was fantastic. but we decided to do our own things. It's about seven years ago, give or take,[00:04:16] Nathan:Yeah.[00:04:17] Jay:We started talking to. Some clients that we had at universal and we sort of became the label infrastructure for some management companies.One of our long-term clients and friends is doc McGee, who you might know, manages kiss. And he managed, you know, Motley, Crue and Bon Jovi and Diana Ross and the Supremes. Anyway, doc is a mentor, a friend and a client. And we came in and one of our first projects was working with him and his stable of artists.And what was exciting about that is that you'd have some artists that were new developing artists. They're never played live before all the way to people filling up arenas. And so the release cycles would change out and it was very dynamic and very exciting. So. That's what Label Logic is all about. We typically are sort of the label infrastructure, for managers, some artists, you know, we also work with some labels and distributors.I think one of our most exciting projects was taking and creating this thing called resilience music Alliance, with the principals there and they signed the artists. We did, you know, the marketing and digital strategy and help them get all the planes flying in formation. And w you know, we won a Grammy last year, so it was really exciting just going from zero to 60, you know, just building something with your own two hands.[00:05:46] Nathan:Yeah. So what is the, for someone who's outside the music industry and they're like this. Just magic. Somehow you find artists and then somehow that goes all the way through to your album releases. When he grabbed me, things like that, like, what are the specific things that, that you're helping out on and playing in?What, what's your role there?[00:06:06] Jay:Yeah, good question. It really is the unsexy nuts and bolts things about setting up a release, everything from securing ISRC codes to shooting the album cover to making sure the, the album is recorded and delivered on time. It's all the creative surrounding it. You know, all of the banners and videos and press release and bio, and there's so much of this to do.That we organize it all. And then we help, excuse me with partners. You may need a publicist. You may need somebody to work sync licensing. You may need somebody for March, right? There are all these different things that you need to do. And we basically, we like to say that we're planners, but we're also problem solvers because every single project is different and has different needs.We recently launched a new album by Travis Tritt. Fantastic record. His team is button. They are experienced. So we took on really more of a, more of a planning role putting together the marketing plans. But then we have some artists that have never released music before. So it's a little more handholding, you know, all those certain things, because it's not about gaming the system today.It's really more about optimization. People always come to us and they say, well, I got to get on this plane. or I want my YouTube numbers to be up and we have t-shirts printed that say a playlist is not a marketing plan, right. Because our playlist important. Sure. They are, but that's down the road.There's so much to do before that. And really when I talk about optimization, when it comes to YouTube or DSPs like Spotify, apple music, Pandora, Deezer, it's not about gaming the system. It's about optimum. Right. And when you do that optimization, whether it's with your website, DSPs, press, any of that good things typically happen.[00:08:02] Nathan:What's an example of some of that optimization that, works rather than, you know, maybe what people are latching onto is is a magic bullet.[00:08:12] Jay:Yeah, couple of obvious ones. Let's take YouTube and Spotify, Spotify, because you can do more with Spotify than any other DSP. As far as you can change out your image, your banner image, your, your avatar, your artist image. You can add, I think 140 images. to your profile, you can put your social links, you can put your bio, there's, all these things that you can do that you can't do.Other places, not all of them.[00:08:38] Nathan:Yeah.[00:08:38] Jay:So, you know, you'd be surprised how many times we'll go look at somebody's Spotify profile and it's an old image and there's somebody in the photo that's not even in the band anymore, or it's just, it's just dated. And you look at the bio and it's, it's dated one of the first places we look, is someone's Spotify profile.Is it updated? YouTube is a really great example. Optimizing for YouTube is so easy and yet a lot of artists miss it. YouTube is not just a place to go drop your music. YouTube is something that, you know, through their community, through your, your artist page. So many things that you can do with that, the common mistakes we see is an obvious one.You know, the name of the videos should be artists titled. Artists title version, and they're mixed up and they're all over the place you want to optimize for that search, right? You want to, for example, the thumbnail, sometimes you go in and look at people's videos and there's literally a picture of somebody blinking is the cover of the video.[00:09:44] Nathan:Right. Cause this is what will, what YouTube selected randomly.[00:09:47] Jay:Yeah. And, and as you know, you can, they'll give you like three or four choices and you can pick one of those, but you can upload any image you want to be on though. And so we have actually a deck that we put together on YouTube and we show these examples of like, here's Lizzo and look at this. It's perfect.It's a beautiful photo of her. And it's, and then you look at the description, you know, is there a smart URL in there? You know, so. I don't recommend people put Spotify, apple, Pandora, Deezer, Amazon music, just put a smart URL in there. Have somebody click on that and then they can choose the platform, whether it was.Downloads, probably not physical, digital, YouTube website, all of that stuff. It's so easy to do. And then also in that description, anything that somebody might care about, who, who shot it, who produced it? Show me the lyrics, you know, give me put all that information in there. So it's, it's searchable. there that's, those are a couple of simple examples of optimization.[00:10:44] Nathan:Yeah. You know, it's interesting. one of the earlier guests that have the show, his name's Ali doll, and he's a YouTuber and he's got 2 million subscribers who's channel and he's just built this incredible, business. And I always think about YouTube as like him optimizing, you know, video like thumbnails and all of those details.Like obviously Lizzo is doing the same thing or really her team is doing that. Right. But it's, it's the exact same. game just in two different industries.[00:11:13] Jay:Yeah, it is. And another way to optimize YouTube, for example, and you can watch what you know, Justin Bieber's doing, and you can learn a lot from those things. one of my favorite writers and marketers is Amber Horsburgh and she did kind of a breakdown of. Some of these marketing campaigns, including Justin Bieber.And one of the things that you see is something we stress all the time. YouTube optimization. You don't just post your concept video or whatever your music video, you still have like five videos, six videos, meaning, you know, you want to have that concept video, but you also may want to lyric video. You may want a stripped down video.You may want a live video, right? there's so many like a pseudo video. It goes by a bunch of different names, but I know you've seen these where it's just the album art. And the audio bed. And sometimes people look at those and go, well, why that's not a video? Why is that on YouTube? Well, that's because YouTube is the number one destination to listen to music.It's not Spotify. Right? It's, it's YouTube people create playlists from those, you know? so it's really important to. Optimized for all of these platforms. And that, that means socials, you know, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, as well as the DSPs, as well as all of these. And again, it's not gaming the system.The problem we run into sometimes is people will come to us and they'll say, oh, well, you know, I, I bought these spins or I bought these lights. Well, now you're in trouble because number one, you can get pulled off of Spotify, right? in January 750,000 tracks were pulled off of Spotify for using bots and spin farms.Right. So[00:13:05] Nathan:Quickly,[00:13:06] Jay:Very careful[00:13:07] Nathan:Someone spinning up a whole bunch of computers and bots to go listen to the song on Spotify to be like, look, I now have a million plays.[00:13:17] Jay:Right?[00:13:18] Nathan:Um[00:13:18] Jay:Yeah. But they're not real, right.[00:13:20] Nathan:Yeah. Okay. I I've definitely seen that on Instagram, Twitter. But like, yeah, it makes sense that, that it exists on[00:13:28] Jay:Yeah[00:13:29] Nathan:First thing that you look at when, when I, like, when we're looking to book an artist for a creator sessions or, or some, one of our other projects, you know, you're, you're, it's that first source of credibility of like, oh, wow.That has two to 2 million plays this. Person's getting a lot of traction.[00:13:44] Jay:But what we look at instead of looking at those numbers, we look at engagement and when you look at engagement, sometimes you see the audience grow and that's going up, up, up. But if you don't see the engagement growing along with it, Then you know, that those aren't real people, because when you use bots and spin farms to Jack up these numbers, yes, it's dangerous because it can get you in trouble, but it screws with all of your, data, which is so important, right?The, what you really want. is Engagement. You want people to like, yeah, you want people to follow, but you want people to listen, share comment. That's real engagement, man. You get that. Uh that's that's the prize.[00:14:29] Nathan:Yeah. So let's go back. as you're getting into music, what, like, in the, in the early days, what was the hook for you? What, what brought you to the whole industry?[00:14:39] Jay:Oh, my gosh. Well, my, my family's musical, you know, my brother, you know, he's a Writer record producer, graphic design artists. my mom played piano. My grandfather played sax and big band. You know, I started a little high school band and ended up, you know, touring in bands and playing, writing, recording. So I kind of got to know how the sausage was made and, and I loved working in record stores.I worked for an indie record store. I worked for tower records for five years. There's so much fun.Um and[00:15:08] Nathan:Been in the industry.[00:15:09] Jay:Yeah, I've always been in music and, working at universal was just such a joy. learned so much. yeah, I've always been surrounded by, by music ever since I was little kid.[00:15:21] Nathan:What's something as a,[00:15:24] Jay:Oh[00:15:25] Nathan:If you're talking to an outsider, maybe a common misconception they have, know, someone who's a fan of music then you're like, oh, this is actually how it works that you find yourself explaining or,[00:15:37] Jay:Oh, my gosh, we could talk for days.[00:15:39] Nathan:Yeah.[00:15:40] Jay:I wish people understood that the harder I work, the luckier, I get, you make your own luck. You know, you see these people and you're like, wow, that guy just blew up on TikTok or, you know, Twitch or on Spotify or apple music. Sometimes that happens not very often.And it usually it's a lot of hard work, you know? I asked an ANR person before the. You know, how do you choose who you signed to your label today with all of this data? And he said the same way. I always do. I look for that line up around the block for people to see him play, right? So it's, it's a new music business and we can now see with all this data what's going on.But I think the common misconception is there's a similar. There isn't a silver bullet, you know, it's, it's a lot of hard work and it's a lot of finding your tribe. And I say that a lot because you need to find your audience. I talk to people all the time about finding that audience and they think they know who their audience is.If you talk to any manager, artists, they, they they'll have a sense. Like, well, my demo, my artists or my, my fan base, I mean is 25 year old. But there are three audiences, right? There's one sales streams and downloads. So the commerce side to the butts in the seats. So when you're touring, who's actually out in the crowd, right.And then three, you know, kind of the social side of it. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, those three audiences, rarely aligned completely. And there's always something to learn. I was talking to an artist recently who thought that. Their crowd was 25 year old, females, because that's who they saw in the crowd.But if you look at the other data, that's not who's quote unquote consuming their music. So there are a lot of misconceptions, but, I heard this really great line about data and analytics. It's like a lamppost. You can use it to aluminate or you can use it to lean on. And most people use it to lean on, like, see, I told you that's, that's what I thought my data is.But really, if you go in and look at all this, analytics, you'll find that there's always something you can learn in there about your audience and how to reach your audience.[00:17:57] Nathan:I like that because I catch myself doing that of like, Let me go dig for the data that proves the point thatI already my existing worldview and that they were having that debate. Yeah. See, this is what proves it. And you can go back and, and[00:18:14] Jay:Right[00:18:15] Nathan:The data say almost whatever you want.If you come at it with that[00:18:18] Jay:Yeah, absolutely. And today there's so many great places to find data like real great data. Like for example, you know, it used to be called SoundScan right now. It's called MRC connect. Same thing. You can get real numbers for sales, streams, and downloads. That is so helpful. And you can see data from previous releases and kind of get a sense of that.There are these great platforms like chart, metric and vibrate and sound charts, where you can go in and see what playlist was I added to which ones, where I dropped off of what position was I in? How many times was it skipped? You know, there's so many great data platforms out there, but it's almost like there's too much, you know, you need to kind of focus on what, what do you want to do?You know, some people want to route a tour, So that's really easy. You can kind of see what markets you're over-performing in. You can download data from Pollstar and see if you played in those markets before, you know, how did you perform? So we're really big on data, but you kind of have to look at it carefully and decide what you're trying to learn from it.If that makes sense.[00:19:30] Nathan:How do you think about the intersection, between the different platforms? Like, if you're actually say we're promoting it to her or, a new album release or something like that, what are you recommending as far as where artists build, you know, build their audience. and then, yeah. How do you think about the intersection when it actually comes time to drive?[00:19:49] Jay:Yeah. And that's, that's a great question because it's so different for every artist in every release, right? So you kind of have to look where, where is my. You know, they may, maybe they're still buying physical. Maybe you're a jazz artist and that's a, still a, an album format. So you want to look at Amazon.You want to look at places, indie retail, where people are buying the full album and they want to experience that way. then you look at maybe EDM or country, every kind of genre and mood has its own nuances. I think it's really important to find out who your audience is, what their behaviors are. And then a real simple thing is when it comes to social media, so many artists today, they have so many choices and it's not just writing and recording and touring.Now they got a post on socials and create videos and comment. I mean, it's so much, so what we tell people is take a step back. What are you killing? Yeah, right. And a lot of them it's Instagram, right? Some of them it's TikTok focus on that. You don't have to be all things to all people, you know, find out where that crowd is, where your audience is and really work that, and then kind of grow it from there.And hopefully you'll get to a point, like we were talking about Lizzo, where you have a team surrounding you that can attack all those different platforms.[00:21:16] Nathan:Yeah, think there's a tendency. I see this in founders and entrepreneurs and marketers, like all across the board. I've, we're so used to failing at things like trying things and failing. They like tried this didn't work and in order to continue to be a founder or a marketer and you have to try the next thing tried that didn't work tried that didn't work, this, it worked.[00:21:38] Jay:Yeah[00:21:39] Nathan:So then I tried this and it didn't work and this, and it didn't work. And you're like, hold on. But what about the thing that did work and, you know, we move on so quickly and we see like every case study of[00:21:49] Jay:Yeah. And it's so different per artists. So the thing that you just described as spot on, but let's say we did that for Ben Barnes. Well, our next artist, we got to start from scratch because the things that worked for Ben probably aren't going to work for Travis Tritt. There they're totally different animals.So I love trying things. I love trying new platforms and, you know, there are a handful of things that really work across everything. And so you kind of start with those in your marketing plan, like. Tools is bands in town. Now everybody knows bands in town. It's got like 55 million people have this app on their phone and it says, Hey, Nathan, you know, the accidentals are coming to your town in a couple of weeks and you're like, oh cool.And then you can buy your ticket and stuff. They look at your music library, but what a lot of people don't know is that you can go in there and look at how many people are attracting. Right. And usually it's thousands. You know, you look at these artists, they don't even know they have thousands of trackers and bands in town.Well, you can reach out to them for free and say, Hey, I've got a new release coming out. or I'm going to be in a, there's a tour and I'm going to be in your area. But what's really exciting about bands in town is that I can look at like competitive artists fan bases. So if I know that my artists. You know, then maybe there, they would appeal to the Chainsmokers crowd.I, for 5 cents an email, I can target them and say, Hey, you guys dig the chain smokers. You, you might dig this too. So there are a lot of little platforms like that, like you were talking about, which is so important. You got to try. All the time. And you know, as Paul Stanley said, the road to success, isn't from here to success.It's failure, failure, failure, failure, success.[00:23:37] Nathan:Yeah, for sure. Are there any trends going on in the music industry now that concern you things where like, as, as you've watched it develop, you're like, I'm not sure where this is headed and I'm not sure that it's going to be good for the artists. Good for the fans and any of those things.[00:23:51] Jay:Not a lot. I think it's, it's changed while we've been having this conversation. The music business is evolving so quickly and you know, I do a weekly podcast and newsletter for the music industry and we break down the stories every week and it's so fascinating to me. How quickly it's evolving. And, you know, for example, you see companies like hypnosis and primary wave and BMG buying up all of these rights.And you're wondering like, well, they're paying these huge multiples what's going on here. And some of these heritage artists are getting hundreds of millions of dollars. And then in the last couple of weeks, you've really seen these stories about interpolation. Coming out, meaning that instead of using a sample, they're just using the melody of a Olivia Newton, John or Taylor swift song in a new song.And it, no one's getting sued because they're crediting the writers and they're paying the publishing and you may find two or three interpolations in one song. Olivia Rodriguez recently, there's so many. Of these things that are evolving so quickly, TikTok, it just blows my mind sometimes how fast you can gain an audience there, but it's one of the hardest platforms to gain real engagement.So you can gain those numbers, but how do you hold onto them? It reminds me of some of these artists that are on these talent shows, you know, American idol, the voice America's got talent, whatever you got to grab that audience. Once they're off that show, you have to engage them quickly or it's gone. cause you'll have huge numbers from being on those shows.But if you don't engage with that crowd and keep them interested in, you'll still have those big numbers of YouTube subscribers and followers. But the engagement just drops right off the cliff. So as far as the trends that concern me, I think the biggest thing we touched on, you know, people who try to buy likes, follows spins.I just, I think that's horrible and it's so dangerous for their career. we always tell people. We manage 20 careers. you're, you're managing one yours. You need to take that really seriously. And, we, we advise against trying to game the system. I have a friend of mine who's really big in SEO search engine optimization and, he's very good at it.And he always tells me. These people come to me and they've messed with their website, for example, to get it to come up in search. And he laughs and he says, look, Google's got, Google has like 200 highly trained engineers working on this stuff. And you think you're going to trick them with your little, you know, metadata trick, you know, maybe for 10 minutes, but it's always best to have a plan, have a marketing plan.Optimize for everything. you do that and avoid some of these pitfalls. Yeah. Those are the things that concerned me. It's just people trying to, find a shortcut.[00:26:58] Nathan:Yeah, that makes sense. you dropped a bunch of things in there that I, I want to talk about and dive into, but maybe starting with the music back catalogs that are being purchased, those rights, I'm always super curious about things like that, because. You know, as a creator, you're working on things that feel like they're in the moment.And I have a few friends who are successful authors who are pretty prolific, like they'll write a book year, a book every other year. one friend said like, basically like putting out annuities where you have this, this thing and add you as you add to your catalog. It just. Let's say this book is going to sell $50,000 worth copies its long tail every year.Like clockwork, time you come out with a new one, it adds that there's another 50,000 a year, plus it gives it a little bump. And so you see creators who are these big spikes, and then that's kind of it. You also see creators who are continually adding to the back.[00:27:54] Jay:Yeah.[00:27:55] Nathan:Like explain more for anyone who doesn't understand on the music side, why these catalogs are so valuable and why, you know, people are paying[00:28:04] Jay:Yeah.[00:28:04] Nathan:Of millions, hundreds of[00:28:05] Jay:Yeah Well, it's just math at this point. What's happened is with streaming. Now there's some predictable. There's some planning involved. So if you have a catalog, you know, you look at like Stevie Nicks sold hers, or at least a big portion of it. And Bob Dylan, there's a predictability now that there wasn't before on how much revenue that's going to generate on, on two sides, one the publishing, right?For the, for the songwriters and then the master, you know, so with that predictability comes, some of them are just banging. You know, they come in there and they say, okay, this catalog is worth this much money. And this is how much it makes over a year. Let's say it makes a hundred thousand dollars a year.Well, we're going to pay you for 10 years or 20 years worth and cut you a check right now. So we call those multiples and some of these companies are paying super high multiples and almost jacking up the price. It's kind of a land grab in some respects. So. It really doesn't help a new developing artist a lot right now.But if you've co-written songs with people and you've got music out there, There, there is money to be had there. If you want that big payoff, some people are selling off their publishing. Some people are selling it off for a term. Some people are selling their masters off and it makes sense for somebody let's say Stevie Nicks, cause she's in her seventies.Now it's a state planning and she can, you know, get all of that money and help her family and whatever. So I'm not necessarily against. At all. but what I really love is watching how these companies are now going to exploit that catalog. And I mean that in the best possible way, exploited, how are they going to generate the right revenue?And that interpolations that I talked about a minute ago. That is one way, you know, there was a story last week, and they talked about primary wave having, you know, these writer's camp. And using their top 40 or 50 tracks that they have the rights to, and having these writers write songs surrounding those melodies.And again, those writers will be credited those writers and the publishers and all of that, but that's kind of the new trend too. So yeah[00:30:35] Nathan:Yeah that's fascinating. it'll be interesting to see how it keeps developing Another thing that you talked about a little bit is, uh your newsletter, which I want to get into, what, like so many people consume content, what was the thing that made you switch and say Hey, I want to be to be one of the, people on the creator side, commenting on the industry and building an audience[00:30:58] Jay:Yeah[00:30:58] Nathan:That's like, it feels like you've been more of a behind the scenes guy for a long time. And now there's a little bit of at least you're going to be a front of house for all the behind the scenes people.[00:31:11] Jay:Yeah, no, that's, that's a good point. I think what happened was I had left Warner music group and I was deciding do I want to start my own company. Do I want to go back working for a major? And I got this email from Sean Rakowski who used to be the head of sales for ADA. And all it was was about a dozen of.These songs and albums that he had found that were really good. And he was sharing it with a hundred people. So I called him up and I said, this is cool, but you know, why are you doing this? And he said, well, I'm kind of between jobs. I don't know where I'm going to go right now. And I just don't want people to forget me and the light bulb went on and I went, I'm going to do that.So I did something you're not supposed to do. And that is, I created an email and just basically sent it to a couple hundred people in my. my contacts, you're typically supposed to ask for permission, but I just decided, you know what, I'm just going to do this and what do I love Well I love music and technology.So I'll just do a recap, every week and what I knew at the time. was that People don't like to read. I love reading stories on technology and music, but not everybody does, but they want to know what's going on. So I put an image and then just a two, to three sentence blurb. So even if you don't read those top dozen stories in your morning coffee, you can read that little blurb and go, oh, okay.Well, this is going on. You know, here's some changes that here's some platforms that are coming up. This is what's going on with the music modernization act or NFTs or whatever. And. All of a sudden. It started to grow. And that little newsletter to a couple hundred people is now over 15,000 people and we have advertisers and now we have a weekly podcast, we've been doing for a year where we break down the stories.So I didn't have this grand plan of, I'm going to create this newsletter for the industry. And no, I just didn't want people to forget me while I was deciding. What my next career path was going to be, and it was a happy accident. I just stumbled into it. And then next thing you know, some of my favorite artists subscribed to it.Some of my favorite managers subscribed to it and they'll send me notes. What do you think about this? And then. The last thing I'll say on it is it wasn't intended for business. It wasn't intended for me to make money from, but what's happened is people will read your morning coffee and then they'll call me up and they'll go.I think I need to hire Label Logic to be my label infrastructure for this. And so it's brought us business, but that, wasn't what it was intended for originally.[00:33:43] Nathan:Yeah, it's fascinating how that worked. Cause you, you position yourself as the expert, the person with the pulse on the industry I mean, it's not even like a deliberate thing. You don't have to say that you just. Are the[00:33:56] Jay:Cool[00:33:57] Nathan:Sent, like sending out the content and people are like great, thanks for doing that.So I didn't have to go compile it from different sources. And, and you find that you have your own platform.[00:34:07] Jay:Yeah[00:34:07] Nathan:Some, what are some of the things that worked as far as, growing it, maybe deliberate things that you put in, beyond the, organic growth and sharing[00:34:17] Jay:Yeah, I think that, the thing that really helped us is really like, if you're a wedding photographer or a real estate agent, all of your business practically is word of mouth. And a lot of the growth that we have for your morning coffee comes from people just getting it, and forwarding it to their staff, you know, I'm saying, Hey, have you seen this?And that's where we've seen that growth.I think the things that I did that really. helped Keeping it to those blurbs and not trying and having that image. People are very visual. I've seen other newsletters that are just a mountain of text.[00:34:53] Nathan:Yeah[00:34:53] Jay:Not many people are going to dig through that. So I wanted to make it.Very accessible to somebody who's really busy at an airport. They can just look at it on their device and and get a sense of what's going on. The other thing that, again, by accident, I started reaching out to some of these writers, like you had mentioned earlier, speaking with Sherry who, I reached out to Sherry, you know, I've had her on the podcast, we've had conversations.I have a great deal of respect for her in her writing people like, You know, Amber horsepower. I mentioned, Glen peoples, Bobby O Sinskey, you know, Bruce Hoten over at Hypebot. After a while I started developing these conversations in relationships and I would be on their Podcast. They would be on mine.I would write articles for Hypebot Hypebot would promote your morning coffee of the newsletter, a very symbiotic kind of relationship with all of these writers. And the level of debate and the level of communication has just enriched my life. Having these conversations with people, you know, like Amber and Glen peoples and saying, well, what do you think of this?I dunno, what do you think of this? You know, for example, I, I met this really smart young marketer, Maddie Elise, who runs her own company and she was doing some really great analysis on bots and spin farms. Like how can you tell if you've been bonded and we got into these conversations and she posted some really great articles online.I put them in your morning coffee. It's been a wild ride, but it's, it was unexpected that I would have these conversations.[00:36:36] Nathan:Well, It's amazing how Yeah. Like in any industry, Like working in sales, the music industry has all connections and relationships.[00:36:45] Jay:Yes[00:36:46] Nathan:Could spend forever people one on one Hey I'm I'm coming to your city I'm in LA I'm in Nashville I'm in Atlanta Like now we're in a you know like trying to get one connection into the next and coffee and everything else to try to build up that now. Or you can kind of take take a step back and say, all just going to start a newsletter and then get like, thousands and then people that follow it. And then[00:37:10] Jay:Yeah[00:37:11] Nathan:You would like really slowly be like working up relationships to get to the point that you've talked to is like oh, Hey, I wrote this thing.Would you mind throwing it in the newsletter And like,[00:37:22] Jay:Yeah[00:37:23] Nathan:Also come on on my podcast, let's chat. And it's just this shortcut to relationships and amazing.[00:37:27] Jay:Yes, absolutely. And I'm a big fan of networking, music business association conference, one of the best on the planet. You know, you go there. The, the great meetings are the ones, while you're waiting in line at Starbucks, you know, you meet all of these people. And it's then like at the last music business association conference, I was standing in line talking to some publicists.Well, publicists are so great because they're on the pulse of everything. There are people like, you know, over at shore fire or the great team at rock paper, scissors who matches technology and music in their publicity campaign. And now they're sending things to me. Hey, have you heard about this new platform?Hey, you might want to interview this person because they've got this new thing. And so it, it becomes this thing, but you had mentioned like sitting down and having coffee with people. That's what I did with Amber Horsburgh I've. I read some of her deep cuts, things that she has online. She has done marketing at a high level.My partner, Jeff and I have done marketing at a high level. We called her up, met at the one-on-one coffee shop and just had an amazing.Chat, as you know, when you sit down with somebody who's enthusiastic about the same things you are, whether it's music, sports, whatever, you can talk all day. Right. And I love meeting these people and that's kind of how, like the, your morning coffee Podcast.My, my cohost is Mike Etchart, who did sound envisioned radio. He and I can sit and talk for hours about. This, these stories. So every week we do the podcast, we record it Sunday morning at nine 30 and it goes live on Mondays. We talk for a half hour to an hour before we hit record. We just sit there and, oh my gosh.Did you see that documentary on 1971? No. Hey, have you heard that new record by, you know, Ben Barnes, whatever it is. And because we have such a passion for it. And I think that comes out in the newsletter. It's not a dry kind of thing. and the last thing I'll say on that is the other side, these relationships I've developed are like with attorneys who write stories.There's this one guy, Chris castle, who has a website called music technology policy. And I. You know, put some of his great articles in your morning coffee, cause they're really smart ass, you know, sassy stuff and had him on the podcast. And now I'll call him up from time to time, you know, like what do you think of this?And it's just, this whole kind of network is it's really.[00:40:02] Nathan:Yeah, that's amazing. Is there a favorite moment or something like that, where, uh or opportunity that the newsletter has created for you? Like, we talked about a lot of connections and stuff like that, but one where, you know, you're like, Oh wow, this is, this is a fantastic opportunity that wouldn't have come.If I hadn't built it.[00:40:20] Jay:Oh my gosh, so many of them, but I'll tell you, at a high level, getting to speak to people that I admire respect that that's thrilling. But one great example recently was for our one-year anniversary of the, your morning coffee Podcast. we had Nancy Wilson from heart on and did an hour long interview with her.Now I grew up in. I grew up on heart, Nancy and I shopped at the same record stores. I saw them play live many, many times, huge fan. so that was pretty cool and knowing her as well as I do her career, her music, all of that. Mike and I had an amazing, interview with her and that's something that we just wouldn't have had, without this via.[00:41:10] Nathan:Yeah, that, that kind of thing is so fun of like, almost getting to have a conversation, you know, as peers and all of that with someone that you're like[00:41:21] Jay:Yeah.[00:41:22] Nathan:However many years ago would be freaking out Right. now[00:41:25] Jay:Right. I was in the, I was in the crowd, right. Cheering along, and now we're having a conversation about things and that's probably the most thrilling part of your morning coffee. The newsletter and Podcast is the level of debate. The level of people that will call me and say, I disagreed with that piece.Or I'd like to write an op ed or, you know, Th that's pretty thrilling because look like we said, this music industry's changed while we've been on this call. So if you want to keep up with it, you can follow some of these great, writers. And, you know, you mentioned Sherry who, you know her, I subscribed to her Patrion.I love the research that she does. And I've learned so much from that. But if you don't want to read everything by all of these marketers, then there are. Vehicles like your morning coffee, where you get it for free every Friday, you just glance at it and get a sense of what's going on. And then if there's, there's something that really interests you, you click on it and you can read deeper.[00:42:28] Nathan:Yeah. Yep. I like that. Um what are some of the things that you're looking to do next for your morning coffee of how to, how to grow it further? What's sort of the milestone.[00:42:37] Jay:Yeah, we're I really want to grow it. and we're looking at, you know, networks that we could be a part of. we've got advertisers now, which is nice. you know, we're not going to get rich from it, but it's nice that we have, and we can pick and choose, you know, who those advertisers are. We're not going to advertise for baked beans.We have some really great digital music sponsors my goal. Two things. One, I really want to grow the audience. I'm thrilled with the growth that we've had. and the quality cause I use MailChimp. So I can go in there just like constant contact or any of these other great platforms. And I can see who's who's subscribing which ones they opening, you know, what are they clicking through?What device are they on? And I love it when people who I admire and respect are. And I want to grow that as well. So grow it, grow the quality of it and, you know, just continue to build that audience.[00:43:39] Nathan:Are there specific activities that you're thinking of to grow it where you're like, oh, this was working. So I'm going to do more of that, whether it's ads or promotions or, any of those things[00:43:49] Jay:Yeah, I, it sounds pedantic, but we always say you do more of what's working and less of what doesn't And I know that sounds silly, but we do that with every platform. You look at YouTube or you look at your socials and go, wow, that post really over-performed, Well do more of things like that. And I'm looking at like with your morning coffee, there are certain articles that I just know are going to get high clicks.People love lists. You know, here are the seven things that Nathan thinks you should do. People love bullet point lists, but I try not to, do the cheap applause thing, I could do the whole thing full of that, but there also has to be something in there for you to eat your vegetables.There has to be a little bit of analysis. You know, the one that comes out tomorrow, there's a breakdown of, you know, the first half of the year versus the first half of last year. Not everybody wants to dig into the data like that. So I try to make. it You know, balanced that way. the other thing I'd like to do is partner with.Other people, for example, one of the reasons I have such a high, you know, viewership is the folks over at Hypebot every week they put my newsletter and Podcast in their newsletter that goes out to a lot of people. so they're, a great partner for us. We love, we love HighSpot, but if I can get more people, you know, you're standing on the shoulders of giants, so to speak, I would love to have, the.Orchard Ingrooves ADA, you know, Warner music group, Group use your morning coffee and send that out to their artists, labels, and managers, that sort of thing. That would be the next step.[00:45:33] Nathan:Yeah, that. makes sense. like those partnerships end up being so big. And I've seen that with a lot of newsletters where they're doing cross-promotions or they're saying,[00:45:42] Jay:Yeah.[00:45:43] Nathan:Hey do a takeover Where, like,[00:45:47] Jay:Right.[00:45:48] Nathan:You know, Jay's writing the entire newsletter for us this week. If you want to follow more of what he does, you know, and you need to this newsletter swap or a bunch of things.[00:45:57] Jay:Yeah, those takeovers are really important. I did one last week with symphonic distribution, I did a little Instagram takeover and immediately had, hundreds of new subscribers to the newsletter. we always tell people there's two reasons why nobody is buying or streaming your new release.One is they've never heard. of you Two they've heard of you, but they didn't know it was out. Those are two things that you can correct with proper marketing, touring advertising, those types of things. And it's the same with the newsletter is I need to get it in front of people because, every week I get a note from somebody like, oh, I just discovered your podcast, or I just discovered your, newsletter.You know, and I don't have big budgets to advertise, you know, put it in billboard magazine or, whatever. but that's my goal.[00:46:54] Nathan:Yeah I like it. some of my favorite podcasts interviews are Witten. The host starts asking really selfish questions like[00:47:02] Jay:Okay[00:47:03] Nathan:Direct advice that they want. So I'm going to do that now. So uh ConvertKit right So we're creating a marketing platform, email marketing platform for creators where Uh like quick context We're 70 people on the team[00:47:19] Jay:Wow[00:47:19] Nathan:Year in revenue, in like mostly in the blogger podcast or newsletter space, but then the last year has been this push into, into music. So we've got a whole range of artists from Leon bridges to Tim McGraw. we bought, a platform called fan bridge, at the beginning of this year, but we're like new to the spaceAnd so coming in. What advice would you give either to, you know, ConvertKit or to any of these, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of other players who are, trying to come into the music industry, really serve artists, be good citizens of the community. Like what advice would you give as far as how to grow, How to get more artists on the platform and[00:48:02] Jay:That's a great question. I think the first thing you do is you collaborate and we tell people all the time, if, when we're taking an artist in to meet with a digital service provider or a platform you listen first and you say, How can we partner? How can we collaborate? Not what can you do for me? So some of the obvious things, right, would be, the music business association, right?Portion, her team over there are phenomenal. You have conversations with them, you sponsor their events, you get involved in their live streams and that community. Right. I think that's, that's kind of where you start, as you become. A partner, you know, you collaborate, people who, all these people that you mentioned that have these great, you know, newsletters, whether it's, you know, Sherry who, or Amber Horsburgh or, you know, Bobby, Osinski, all of these things.You, you reach out to them as you're doing you partner with them, you see, like, how can we collaborate together? How can we work together? How can I help you to grow your audience? And once you become. Part of that network, part of that community. Let me back up. my old boss used to tell me, everybody wants to give you advice.Nobody wants to give you a job. So when you go to somebody, don't ask them for something, right? And this isn't directed at you. This is at the larger audience. Don't go in and say, Hey, I need this. Can you do this? For me? People are busy, right? They've got a thousand emails that they're, they need to respond to.But if you ask somebody for their advice, they're like, well, hold on a second. What was that? You need my advice. I'll give you my advice. I found, and I speak at colleges all the time and I mentor and I have interns. And one of the things I tell college students all the time is find someone who's doing what you want to do.Whether it's be an engineer, producer, tour, agent, whatever, find the people that are doing it, reach out to them and say, Hey Nathan, I'm a college student. Can I just get 15 minutes of your time? Chat. I need your guidance. I need your advice on something nine times out of 10, they'll say. Sure, absolutely. And that's at your fingertips right now.And as a company and as a platform, you need to let this community know what problems of theirs are you going to. You know, not your capabilities, not like the business speak while we're a full service platform that, you know, these KPIs and blah, blah, blah. No, it's gotta be, we're going to help you grow your audience by doing this, we're gonna help you, spend less money on your marketing and advertising by doing this, we're going to help you put more butts in the seats by doing this.If you can solve their problems and communicate that. quickly and easily, that's a challenge. but joining all of these, like, like music business association, You know, and going to these panels, like at music tectonics and some of those, that's where those people live and breathe. And, and let me just tie it up in a bow by saying that one of the things we did over the pandemic was we formed this artist management collective and there's, I don't know, give or take 25 managers and on any given zoom call, we'll have probably half of that.We, we talk about what, what publicist are you using now? What video editor are using now, you know, do you use it? Who, who should I call for a tour agent for Americana, you know, and we, we help each other, but we also will bring somebody on from TikTok or bring somebody on from roadblocks and tell us about your platform.You know, w how can you help these artists managers? So that's a long-winded way of saying there's no silver bullet, but. Those relationships, those, those conversations, then that word of mouth will spread and that'll help you build your platform.[00:52:06] Nathan:Yeah Well, I mean, it's exactly what we've been talking about of relationships in the community That's what all of this comes down to and and you know podcasts are especially big for that right Because we have to have conversations like this, and that's what you've seen on, on your Podcast.[00:52:24] Jay:Yeah[00:52:24] Nathan:Makes me wonder, do you think If you're talking to a newsletter creator?Who doesn't have a Podcast. What's the, message that you would say to them of, you know, you're like, Yeah. the Podcast has been good because of these things. Or are you like, what are you doing? Like start[00:52:43] Jay:Yeah[00:52:44] Nathan:Newsletter, go hand in hand. He got us started both. What, what do you think?[00:52:47] Jay:It depends. I think here's the thing. I was reading this article the other day, that the average Podcast, this is average, right? There's 850,000 podcasts out there, but the average one is seven episodes long. That's it. And reaches about 175. people That's an average thing. I mean, yeah. You've got the New York times daily that has a staff of 75 people and it's crazy.And then you've got the Joe Rogans of the world that have these huge audiences, but that's the outlier. That's an anomaly. So I tell people are you really in this? Do you really want to do this? And do you enjoy doing it? So I do, two to three podcasts. every week And I love it. I absolutely love the conversations.It's something. I have a passion for most of the newsletters that I read. There is a Podcast, you know, Sherry who has a podcast, Amber Horsburgh has a podcast. Mike Warner, has a great podcast. Then you look at how often do you want to do it? You know, like your morning coffee is every single week music biz, weekly that I co-host is every single week.You may not have the time to do that. So maybe you do one every two weeks or one every month. I'm a big fan of podcasts. I think that people go for walks, they exercise, they travel, they commute. They do a lot of things where they couldn't necessarily read a newsletter. And this is kind of, you're reading the newsletter to them.So it's so easy to get syndicated. But the only thing I would suggest for somebody who's going to start that is stand on the shoulders of giants with us. We partnered with Hypebot So immediately out of the gate, we've got an audience. We didn't have to start from zero So if you can partner with a brand or partner with another outlet to grow your audience, that's the way to go.[00:54:44] Nathan:Yeah. Yep. I like that. Some of that you said to kind of touched on the idea of longevity, you know, of the average Podcast being seven episodes long. sad, but not surprising, like[00:54:56] Jay:Yeah,[00:54:57] Nathan:What's your message to, creators about longevity. And it's both the artists you're working with, you're giving advice to those college students who hit you up for the 15 minutes of advice all the way through to those building an audience online, in a newsletter type environment[00:55:14] Jay:Yeah. That's a great question. I think the bottom line is you need to find what lights you. up And I tell, not just college students, but I tell professionals this all the time. What is that thing that you wake up in the morning and you just can't wait to do, and you'd do it for free. If you could, is it photography?Is it, it engineering or being a, you know, a manager, whatever it is. There's some There're things that are Personal to you that you love to do. And I always tell people, you have to do more of that. The money will come, but you have to add value first and then the money comes. You don't go looking for the money.That's a common mistake. A lot of people make, I I started your morning coffee without any expectation of any business, money, ads, anything, and it's just been a joy. And I look forward to doing. it Every single week, I've got it, like 90% ready to go. Cause it goes out at 4:00 AM on Friday. So tomorrow, I'll be up with my coffee and I'll hit that.Send button to those lists. that's not work to me. That's I can't wait to do that. And then Sunday morning, Mike Etchart and I are going to record the podcast. I can't wait to do that. So if you can find something in your jobI love coaching. I love teaching. I love working with developing artists and showing them what's worked in the past what hasn't workedand to your point earlier, trying a lot of different things See, see what's working. and What's not, you know, I think that's key because so many people are chasing the dollars and they're miserable. You know, find what lights you up.[00:56:53] Nathan:Yeah, cause chasing the dollars, especially cause they tend to take a long time to come. Any creative business is slow going. So, if you're looking at the dollars as the metric that's going to keep you going, then you are going to end up giving up after the seven episodes.[00:57:12] Jay:Yeah.[00:57:13] Nathan:Something in that[00:57:15] Jay:Yeah.[00:57:16] Nathan:I realized, we should start to wrap up, but I didn't even ask you about photography. That's a huge part of who you are as a creator. We don't have time to get into it a lot, but I just love to hear how photography intersects with the rest of your creative work.[00:57:31] Jay:I've been shooting since I was a teenager. What happened was I went to a concert. I shot it and the images didn't turn out well at all. And that put me on this quest of “Why don't my photos look like the ones in the magazine?”[00:57:45] Nathan:Yeah.[00:57:46] Jay:I got my own darkroom, started reading books. Long story short, I've been doing photography my entire life. I have a photo studio here. I've shot album covers from the Temptations, and John Wayne, and Rick Springfield, and many, many others. I absolutely love it. It's my creative outlet. I can go in on the weekends, shut the door, turn off the phone.My partner, Chris Schmidt and I, we do these shoots and we absolutely love it. It's also intersected with the business. So, photo shoots for clients. We've done videos for clients. It's a labor of love. It's like you find what lights you up. Photography lights me up. I would do it for free if I could.I absolutely love shooting live shows. I love shooting studio shoots. If you check out JayGilbert.net, you can see some of my work over the years. You'll see photos from shooting Van Halen in 1978, all the way to shooting stuff last week with the immediate family.So, thank you for bringing that up. I certainly have a passion for it, and I hope that your viewers and listeners know what their passion is. Even if they can't do it for a living, continue to do it. Life is short.[00:58:59] Nathan:Yeah, I love it. Well, I had a great time going through your whole collection over the years.[00:59:06] Jay:Thank you.[00:59:07] Nathan:There's some that are really, really fun.[00:59:10] Jay:Thank you.[00:59:11] Nathan:Listeners should definitely check that out. Where else should people go to subscribe to the newsletter? Listen to the podcast? All of that?[00:59:17] Jay:It's the easiest URL on the planet. It's YourMorning.coffee. You can sign up for the newsletter. It's free. You can sign up for the podcast. It's free. If you ever want to dig deeper into what Label Logic's all about, it's Label-Logic.net. It might be kind of fun just to look through there.Jeff and I have been doing this for decades, so you'll see some of your favorite artists that we've done some campaigns with.[00:59:48] Nathan:Yeah that's good.Well Jay, thanks so much.[00:59:51] Jay:Yeah, it's my pleasure, Nathan. Thanks for having me.
Danielle Hayden is a reformed corporate CFO (chief financial officer) who is on a mission to help rule-breaking female entrepreneurs understand their numbers so they can gain the confidence needed to create sustainable profits. After spending 10+ years in the boardroom as a corporate finance officer, Danielle is now in her sweet spot as the co-owner of Kickstart Accounting, Inc. where she helps business owners with bookkeeping, financial analysis, and education and as the author of the Profit Planner book series. www.kickstartaccountinginc.com Schedule a discovery call- with Danielle to see if Kickstart Accounting can help you with your business's finances. https://hello.dubsado.com/public/appointment-scheduler/602317d9aefa856bbf502376/schedule 5 Day Video Bootcamp- 5 days to transform your financial fear to financial clarity https://profitplannerbookkeeping.com/Bootcamp Daily Dashboard worksheet and videos- Learn how to transform your financial fear to financial clarity through creating and using dashboards https://profitplannerbookkeeping.com/Dashboards *** Are you interested in starting or growing a podcast AND business with the support of my team and a community of experienced podcasters? Join my Podcaster Pod. You get... Full access to my 8-module podcasting course taking you from idea to launch and everything in between. Equipment and tech, Recording and publishing. Scripts and templates. Everything! Access to me, my team, and a group of experienced podcasters through a private Slack channel Monthly Q&A calls with me and the other Podcaster Pod members. Quarterly Expert Calls Access to me and my network –– meaning I will introduce you to other influencers and people who can help you where it makes sense. Consider joining my new membership site for $27/month. Go to https://dannyozment.com/pod Use code JOINPODPOD to get a 1-month free trial. *** Do you have a website for your business or personal brand or are you building one? If so, then you need WPX hosting. I use WPX for all of my sites and so do many of our clients. For $25/month, WPX's Business Plan gives you Hosting for 5 Websites 10 GB Storage 100 GB Bandwidth Free SSL certificates The WPX Cloud Content Delivery Network They average around 30 second support response time 24/7/365 around the world Provide free unlimited site migration from any host to WPX, usually completed within 24 hours And they are fast because they never overload servers with hosting accounts, unlike so-called 'cheap' hosting which crumbles under any traffic load Sign up for the WPX Business Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/wpx *** Are you building an email list for your business or personal brand? If so, then you need ConvertKit. I use ConvertKit for my list and so do most of our clients. For $29/month, ConvertKit's Creator Plan manages up to 1,000 subscribers Provides unlimited landing pages & forms Sends email broadcasts Provides the ability to Sell digital products & subscriptions Has super fast Email support AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... Gives you Free migration from another tool AND Automated funnels & sequences Get a free 14-day trial of the Creator Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/convertkit *** My Recommended Resources - https://dannyozment.com/resources
America was built on specialists. People that were so exceptionally good at one thing that other countries depended on that unique skill set. Entire industries were born overnight from a singular focus. But as creators, we often feel like jacks of all trades. And if we're constantly juggling multiple hats, can we ever become great at our craft?As new creators, learning to edit your own videos, market yourself on social media, and balance the checkbook all while maintaining a 9-5 is crucial for long-term success. When you can't afford to outsource, staying skilled in every area is often the only way up. So what's the happy medium? In this episode, Charli, Haley, and Miguel discuss the pros and cons of both routes, balancing your niche with building a business, and the most important skill every emerging creator should cultivate.“An expert in something is someone who repeats. They do the thing. They do it again, better the next time. They do it again, better the next time. And they learn each time as they go. I think that being a creator (how we can apply our maybe more scattered passions and energy when it comes to this sort of stuff) is to just do one thing at a time.” ~ @charliprangleyMain takeaways [01:01] Be a V-shaped person. Have one specialty but allow yourself the room to build on other skills that support your core skills. Stay open to learning! [06:07] As creators, it's tough to balance being an expert with being a generalist. Creators often feel pressure to carve out their niche but to succeed as a new creator, you have to be a jack of all trades. [07:30] Creators are often afraid to niche down for fear of losing parts of their audience, but ultimately you have to figure out what it is you're truly passionate about. Once you choose, your best, most engaged audience will stick with you. [18:19] Communication is the best skill you can develop as a creator. You need to express your thoughts in a way that grabs an audience. [32:37] There's value to being an expert and value to being a generalist. But avoid going in only one direction because you'll inevitably lose value along the way. Connect with our hosts Charli Prangley Miguel Pou Haley Janicek Links Watch The Future Belongs to Creators on YouTube The Creative Person Dilemma To Becoming An Expert vs Jack of All Trades. Peter McKinnon Isa Adney Malcolm Gladwell Lewis Hamilton Creator Sessions Henry Thong Ben Baker The Future Belongs To Creators 098: Introducing the new hosts of The Future Belongs to Creators podcast! David Epstein Apply to work at ConvertKit! Got a story to tell on The Future Belongs to Creators podcast?We'd love to have you on the show to talk about successes or failures you've experienced on your creator journey. Submit your story here!Start building your audience for freeWith ConvertKit landing pages, you can build a beautiful page for your project in just a few minutes. Choose colors, add photos, build a custom opt-in form, and add your copy. All without writing any code! Check out landingpages.new to get started.Stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Twitter Facebook Instagram
Stripe's website designs are so well-renowned in the design industry that whenever a new version launches, heavily-influenced sites start to pop up around the web. In this episode I speak to Tatiana about how it feels to have your work so publicly praised, copied and critiqued and we get the details on the process the Stripe team went through to bring the 2020 site redesign to life.This season is proudly sponsored by Webflow! Try out the no-code site building tool for yourself right here: http://charli.link/imdpod-webflowLINKSFollow Tatiana on Twitter: https://twitter.com/tatsvc And on Instagram (for beautiful mountain pics!): https://www.instagram.com/zatiana/ Follow Stripe Design on Instagram too for more behind-the-scenes: https://www.instagram.com/stripedesignteam/ Stripe: https://stripe.com/en-es Jobs at Stripe: https://stripe.com/en-es/jobsGet more episodes at https://insidemarketingdesign.co TIMESTAMPS 0:00 - Today's episode! 3:00 - Design team structure & collaboration 6:00 - Responsibilities of different design teams 8:30 - The Stripe brand 11:20 - Kicking off the 2020 site redesign 17:20 - Stress-testing the system 19:30 - Project timeline 24:30 - The site build process at Stripe 26:50 - After a site launch 29:30 - Design & project management tools 30:45 - Collaboration with marketing 33:40 - User research and testing 37:00 - Design trends & inspiration43:00 - Project planning 45:20 - What's next for design at Stripe 49:10 - My takeaways ABOUT THE SHOWInside Marketing Design was created to highlight a different side of design in tech: marketing and brand design. Inside Marketing Design chats with the people designing high-converting landing pages, setting the style for brand imagery, crafting campaigns, and working hand-in-hand with the marketing team. Every episode takes a deep dive into the processes, principles and people who make marketing design happen. You'll hear about how teams are structured, how designers approach projects and what challenges they face. ABOUT THE HOSTInside Marketing Design is hosted by Charli Marie. Charli is the Creative Director at ConvertKit, and has a YouTube channel (CharliMarieTV), where she posts weekly videos with career tips & advice, work streams, and what she's learned throughout her design career. Charli also co-hosts the popular podcast, Design Life.
With the holiday season right around the corner, it's never too early to start planning. In fact, the longer you wait, the more likely you are to find yourself on the naughty list, aka, in the spam folder.When it comes to sales, deals, and purchasing potential, the holiday season is in a category of its own. Subscribers are slammed with more emails than ever, retailers slash prices, and inbox providers are extra sensitive to spam. One rookie mistake can derail your most profitable time of year.In this episode, Alyssa, Melissa, and Akos, a ConvertKit deliverability specialist, talk about how to stand out from the holiday crowd, prevent inbox fatigue, and avoid the spam folder.“I highly recommend that senders just re-evaluate their content strategy, try to make it as valuable to the sender as possible. Even creators can get so much more creative with how they do this.” ~ @alyssa_dulinMain Takeaways [04:39] To have success during the holidays, don't suddenly increase your volume or frequency. Ramp up to that volume or frequency starting now. If it's a surprise come December, subscribers and inbox providers may send you straight to spam. [07:49] Don't procrastinate your planning strategy. It's never too early to start cleaning your list for the holiday season. [08:09] Remember consistency and engagement. Sending a consistent volume will train the inbox algorithm and sometimes, less is more. Over-sending can cause inbox fatigue. And as the holidays approach, slowly tweak your list to include only subscribers most likely to engage. [16:57] Subscribers receive so many holiday promotional emails every season. It's important to make your holiday emails stand out from the crowd. Get creative and add value for your audience. Try ConvertKit's deliverability in actionIt's now free to use ConvertKit with an audience of 1,000 subscribers or less! Start building your audience and reaching their inboxes: convertkit.com/pricing. Stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Twitter Facebook Instagram Deliverability Defined Website
Making your sales evergreen is the BEST way to scale your business and avoid burnout. Want to stop chasing down sales every single second of the day? I've got 6 ways to evergreen your sales and make your life easier! Learn how to turn your service into a course on my free training! https://heyjessica.com/yourfirstcourse Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicaco
Sean McCabe is the founder and CEO of seanwes media, and Daily Content Machine. Sean is a prolific and successful creator, author, and influencer. His course, Learn Lettering, made $80,000 in the first 24 hours. For nearly a decade his podcast, blog, and courses have helped creators grow their brands, content, and skill sets.Sean's website is a treasure trove of courses and resources for anyone looking for business knowledge and creative support. Sean's book, Overlap, shows creators how to turn their passion into a successful business while working a full-time job. His podcast includes almost 500 episodes on content creation and entrepreneurship. His latest venture, Daily Content Machine, turns creators' best content into clippable moments they can share across their social media accounts.I talk with Sean about what it's like being a successful creator. We talk about growing your audience and connecting with them. We cover how to learn new skills fast, and about developing a growth mindset. We also talk about managing stress as a founder, how to handle burnout, and much more.In this episode, you'll learn: Why good writing is the foundation of great content How to connect better with your audience Leveraging short-form content to grow your brand Pricing at full value without feeling guilty How to avoid burnout, and what to do if you're already there Links & Resources Sean McCabe on The Nathan Barry Show episode 003 Craft + Commerce conference ConvertKit Enough Ryan Holiday James Clear Marie Forleo Ramit Sethi Sean McCabe's Links Follow Sean on Twitter Check out Sean on Instagram Sean's website Daily Content Machine Episode Transcript[00:00:00] Sean:If you are a founder, you should be in therapy. Full-stop. You need a therapist. I thought I didn't. I had a great upbringing. I'm all good. Everything's healthy. I don't have any problems. The problem was I didn't know the problems that I had. I didn't realize what I was stuffing down. I didn't realize what I was avoiding.There is so much to unpack that you don't know you need to unpack.[00:00:30] Nathan:In this episode I talk to my friend, Sean McCabe. We've known each other for seven years now. It's been a long time. We've been in a mastermind group together. He's actually been on the show before. Sean is a wildly talented designer. He got his start hand-lettering.I think last time he was on the show, years ago, we were talking about that aspect of his business and how he built this substantial course business. Selling courses on hand-lettering, on marketing, on writing. He's spoken at our conference Craft + Commerce, all kinds of things. Sean is one of the most prolific creators that I've ever known.It's also super fun that he's a friend and lives right here in town. We just have a great conversation. We talk about how you create content, which is one of those things that it's not even how you create content, it's why. Where that comes from. The internal drive in what you use. Where you choose to have as a source of fuel and energy to put into that creative output.How some sources are really good and productive, and others can be kind of like a house of cards, and it can be harmful. We also talk about scaling teams as a creator. How do you know when to build out a team around your business? He's done that two different ways. So I get to ask him about some of the things he's learned and applied differently.I'm going to stop there. There's a lot of good stuff. So with that, let's dive in.Sean. Welcome to the show.[00:01:59] Sean:Hey, Nathan, just saw you recently. We were playing volleyball, or something.[00:02:03] Nathan:Or something, like two days ago. You moved to my city. It's kind of…[00:02:08] Sean:Yeah. It's horrible. It's a terrible place. Boise. Don't move to Idaho.[00:02:15] Nathan:You mean Iowa? Boise, Iowa.[00:02:17] Sean:Iowa. Yeah. Don't, yeah. Did I do okay?[00:02:21] Nathan:Yeah. That's exactly what you're supposed to say. If you Google something about Boise, Google has the accordion of extra questions, or things you might want to know. One of them is, “Does Boise smell?” and it's just like auto complaints in there.And I was like, what is up with that? I clicked on it, and it's this satirical article that has 12 reasons you shouldn't move to Boise. One of them is the city dump is right in the middle of the city. Another one is like that the Ebola outbreak hasn't been fully contained yet.So it's not really safe. I think there was something about lava. Anyway, it's just an article about all the reasons to not move to Boise. So I think you're right in line.[00:03:08] Sean:Stay, away. That's what they tell me to say.[00:03:11] Nathan:Yes, but if someone were to ignore that and move to Boise, they could come to our weekly volleyball game on Wednesday nights.[00:03:19] Sean:It's casual. It's open.[00:03:21] Nathan:Let's try it. Yeah. It's been so fun having you and Laci here. It's also been fun because you started a new company. Your company is producing and editing and creating all the clips for this podcast. So, connections on so many levels.[00:03:37] Sean:Yeah. We produce this show, like the video show, the audio show, and then find clips and make those clips for social media. It's been great. We love this show. Our team's favorite content. So, I'm a little biased, but it's fun to be on. Because my team's going to work on this.[00:03:58] Nathan:Yeah, exactly. I made sure to spell your name correctly in the setup, and I know they'll get it all.I wanted to ask what sparked—like maybe first give a summary of Daily Content Machine, since that's what you're spending nearly all of your time on. More than a normal amount of time on. So, what sparked it, and what is it?[00:04:19] Sean:Fun fact. This is not the first time I've been on the show. The last time was episode three, 2,624 days ago.[00:04:30] Nathan:Give or take[00:04:32] Sean:I was doing different stuff then. It's been a crazy journey. Right now the newest iteration is an agency.We produce video clips. We turn long form video shows. If you have a video podcast or other kind of long form video content, we found that the hardest part is finding all the good moments in there, and turning those into short clips. That's what we do. I designed it for myself, really.I wanted it to be where you just show up, you record, and, everything just happens? What is your experience, Nathan, with having a video and audio podcasts made, and clips and all that published? What do you, what's your involvement.[00:05:14] Nathan:Yeah. So I think about who I want on the show, I email them and say, will you come on the show? And then I talked to them for an hour, and then I read no, either way. I don't even do that. Yep. That's my full involvement. And what happens is then really what I see is when the show comes out, which I don't touch anything from that moment on. I actually probably notice the show coming out like, oh yeah, that's the episode that we post this week. Cause we have a three week delay on our, production schedule. And so I noticed like, oh yeah, I had a David Perell on the show when I get the Twitter notification of like, David, Perell just retweeted you.And I'm like, oh, what did oh, right. Yeah. Because his episode came out and then every, I mean, David was especially generous. Right. But every clip that week seven in a row, he retweeted and posted to his, you know, hundreds of thousands of Twitter followers. Right. Cause it makes him look really good. It's clips of him delivering these, you know, soundbites of genius, perfectly format.And he's like great retweet share with my audience. I think that one, I picked up like hundreds of new Twitter followers, just, you know, maybe more just from, from, that. So it's a, it's a great experience. The side that I haven't done as much with that I really want to. and you and I talked about this a lot when we. Like early days of Daily Content Machine and what could it be? And, and then, getting my show set up on it is the transcripts in the show notes that you all do. cause first you found the most interesting points of the show and then second there's text versions of all of that. And then they're all like neatly edited and, and everything.And so,[00:07:01] Sean:A lot of re-purposing options.[00:07:04] Nathan:Yeah, so like if you ask the same question or a similar question, like, Hey, how'd you grow from a thousand subscribers to 10,000. Tell me about that process. If you ask that consistently, which I'm not great about asking the same questions consistently, but then over the course of 20, 30 episodes, you have this great library of answers to that question and you could make like compile it all, write some narrative and it's like, oh, there's an ebook that would be 15 pages long and could be a free lead magnet or a giveaway or anything else. It's just a total by-product of the podcast and Daily Content Machine. So I'm a huge fan. That's my experience.[00:07:42] Sean:Well, it's great to hear. yeah, we wanted to make it, I wanted to make it, so I just show up. I record myself doing a podcast with the camera on, and then I walk away. Like I don't have to, the footage sinks. It goes to the team. They produce it. They made me look good. They make me sound good. They find all of the best things. I said, things my guests said, they think about my target audience. What are their struggles? What are their goals? What do they want, what do they need? How would they search for it? How would they say it themselves? And they work together to come up with good titles for them, then produce it, flawless captions, you know, do the research, how's the guests build their name.How does their company name capitalize? Like make sure it's, it's all polished and then publish it everywhere. So I just show up once a week for an hour and record, and then I get to be everywhere every day. That's that's at least the goal. And I'm hearing you say like one of the benefits, but one of the benefits of finding clips out of your long form shows to post on social media is you give your guests something to share.And there's kind of two, two ways of approaching podcasts. And one is kind of the old school way, you know, People used to blog and the used to subscribe to RSS feeds and like, you know, that's how they consumed their content. And definitely you still want to build your own platform, have a website, have a blog, you know, definitely have an email newsletter on ConvertKit but now we're, we're posting Twitter threads. We're posting more content natively and people are consuming more natively on the platforms. So there's the old idea of, I have a podcast, here's a link, go listen to my podcast, go watch my podcast, go watch my video shifting from that to, Hey, why don't we deliver the best moments of the show?Because people are consuming short form content, and that's how they're evaluating whether they want to subscribe, whether they want to spend an hour listening in depth to that interview. We're giving them all of these entrance points and just providing value natively on the platform. Instead of asking them to go off the platform and interrupt their experience, it's here you go.Here's some value here's where you can get more.And, and that that's such a great way to. Bring new listeners on as well as to give the guests something to share, because think about the experience between a guest, being told like, Hey, your episodes out, will you, will you share a link to it? And they're like, Hey, I was on a show, go listen to the show.It's such a great interview. You know, we, we do it. We want to help out that, that person with the podcast. But imagine if the best moments that, where you said that the smartest things with all of your filler words remove and your tangents remove was tweeted, and there's a video right there. All you have to do is hit retweet.It's free content for you. It looks good. But then also for you as the show host, it promotes your show and gives you a new awesome.[00:10:28] Nathan:The other thing in it, like the retweet is fantastic, but a lot of people want that as original content on their social channel. And so having like the, the deliverable that I get from you all is, is. Yeah, it just shows up in Dropbox of here's all the videos for all the platforms and everything, you know, from my archives and all that.And I've sent those on to the guests when they're like, Hey, can I post this? Not every tweet. Like I want to post it with my own, title or tweaks on that. And so I can just share that whole Dropbox folder and they'll, they'll go find the exact thing they want to share and, and use it in their own softens.Like, yes, absolutely. Because the pre-roll or like the, or the post roll on that video is like, go subscribe to item newsletters. It's like, yes, please.[00:11:14] Sean:And it's not like Nathan, that you would have trouble getting guests, but if one had trouble getting guests for their show, or you want to get someone that's like really big, really busy, they get all kinds of requests all the time. Well, imagine if they're evaluating between these different shows, you know what, what's the audience size?What am I going to get out of it? You know, especially if you don't have millions of downloads on your podcast. Well, if you're providing these additional assets, like, Hey, we're going to make clips of this. You're going to get content out of this. It can help people make that decision to come onto your show as opposed to maybe another.[00:11:46] Nathan:Yeah, totally. I want to go, so somebody different directions. This is, we talked about an agency and the business that you're starting. I have a question that I've kind of asked you one-on-one sometimes. And I want to know why build a business with a team and like build this X scale of business rather than go the indie creative route.Right? Because if we want to, if you wanted to say independent, no team, you could probably make a business doing $250,000 a year. Work on it, maybe 20 hours a week, something like that, you know, hanging out in the studio, you'd still have your podcast. You could sit down and like, you're one of the most prolific writers I've ever met. so you could do a bunch of those, those things. And yet you keep trying to do and succeeding in doing these much harder businesses of building a team. And I have to know why.[00:12:39] Sean:Nathan, I don't know. I don't know why. I kind of know why, uh it's it's like it's going to get deep. I mean, it, it probably really goes back to childhood and being, being the oldest of 13 kids feeling like. I don't know if my parents are watching, but like, I felt this, this pressure to be successful, to be a good example, to be, to be a leader, you know, like to be productive.And, you know, I'm working through a lot of that stuff in therapy, like learning, like where did my motivations come from? And like, you know, it is this healthy because, you know, you know, my, my background of extreme workaholism for like 10 years, like, Nope, no joke. It was really bad. Like 16 hour days, seven days a week for 10 years, like all I did was work and like that's, that's my tendency.And I think something beautiful came out of that, which is this sabbaticals idea where since 2014 now I've taken off every seventh week as a sabbatical. So I work six weeks and I, I take off a week and we do that with our team and all of our team members. I paid them to take off sabbaticals and it's just been beautiful.The heartbeat of the company. And like, it's been really good for me as well in terms of, you know, burnout prevention and just unlocking my best ideas, but that's, that's my tendency. And, you know, th there's, there's all kinds of reasons. And, you know, there there's messages that we hear that maybe were said or implicit, you know, growing up that we internalize.And so I think, honestly, Nathan it's, it's probably just like chasing, like, I'm going to be dead honest, like, like it's, it's just like, I think of your post that post that you titled about enough, you know, and, you know, thinking through it, like, like if I were to just think of a number, you know, it's like, no, that's not enough, you know, and I know that's not healthy.So like, yeah, I could totally, I could totally do the solo thing. I could totally make 600. Work part-time, have less stress and maybe I should, you know, maybe I will eventually, but there's something in me that wants to build something bigger, but at the same time, it's just so much fun. Get it, like, I just love processes and systems and like, you know, building things that can scale.And so, yeah, it's.[00:15:08] Nathan:Well, let's lean into it more because I have the same thing on two different sides. Like I made the same leap from a solar creator to having a team. and there's sometimes I miss aspects of the solo creator thing. Like there's a level of simplicity and like, I look at somebody's product launch or something, and it does $25,000 or $50,000.And I'm like, oh, I remember when that amount of money was substantial in that it moved the needle for the business and like, and drove real profits. Now, like 25 or $50,000 gets eaten up by that much of expenses, like immediately, you know, cause the, the machine is just so much, so much bigger. And so I have the same thing of, of pushing for more and trying to figure out what. Like, what is that balance? And, and, yeah, I guess, how do you think about the balance between gratitude and enough and drive and ambition?[00:16:08] Sean:Yeah, that is a great question. It is. It is a balance. And as someone who has a tendency towards all or nothing thinking like, I'm, I just get obsessed. Like if I'm, if I'm about something like, I'm just all in, or I don't care at all. Like I'm really not in between. And that I think is a double-edged sword.Like it's a reason for my success, but it's also a reason for all of my downfalls and like, you know, going years without exercising and losing relationships and friendships, because I was so consumed by what I was building, you know, it is very much a double-edged sword. And so I think the answer is balance, you know, in what you're saying, w what do you, what do I think about the balance?I think it is a balance. It has to be, you have to be operating from a place of enough and then have things that are pulling you forward. You know, something that you're working towards having goals I think is healthy. You know, it's. Something that gets you out of bed in the morning. You're excited about what you're doing.You have this vision for where you're going, but it's operating from a healthy place of, I'm not doing this to fill a void in my soul. Right? Like I'm not doing this because I believe I'm not enough because I believe I'm not worthy of something. But, but because I know, yes, I matter I'm worthy. I'm important.And I'm excited. Like, I think that's the, I'm not saying I'm even there. I just think that's the balance to strike[00:17:34] Nathan:Yeah. I think you're right in this. It's interesting of the things that you can do in your, I guess, life, maybe the creative Dr.. I think there's a tendency of using that insecurity to drive creative success that can work really, really well for an amount of time. Like if you need to finish a book, grow your audience to a thousand subscribers, you know, like accomplish some specific goal.And he used the chip on your shoulder and the feeling of like, this person doesn't believe in me and that like triggers those deep insecurities on one hand, it's wildly effective and on the other, it can be super destructive and it's such a weird balance and place to sit in.[00:18:21] Sean:Yeah, a double-edged sword, for sure. Like it can, it can be what helps you succeed? And it can be your downfall. So you have to wield it wisely. unintentional illiteration you ha you have to be careful with that because it's so easy to just get consumed by it, to drown in it, to let this, you know, whatever it is, this, this, this drive, this motivation, the chip on the shoulder, whatever it is to let it take you to a place where you're just like, along for the ride, you know, on a wave, going somewhere on a, on a, you know, a tube floating down the river, right.You're just being taken somewhere, but are you being taken where you wanna go?[00:19:05] Nathan:Well, yeah. And then realizing, like, it might feel like you are up into a point, but then I guess if you're not aware of it and you're not in control of it, then you'll get to the point where the thing that you were trying to succeed, that the book launch, you know, hitting $10,000 in sales or whatever else, like that's not going to have any of the satisfaction and.[00:19:25] Sean:If I can take an opportunity here just to speak very directly to a point. If you are a founder, you should be in therapy. Full-stop like you, you need a therapist. I thought I didn't. I was like, I had a great upbringing. I'm all good. You know, everything's healthy. I don't have any problems. The problem was, I didn't know the problems that I had.I didn't realize what I was stuffing down. I didn't realize what I was avoiding. There's so much stress, you know, being a founder or even any, any C level executive in a company, like there's just so much going on, and you're responsible for so many things it affects your personal life. It affects your relationships.It affects how you see yourself. There is so much to unpack that you don't know, you need to unpack. And there's probably also stuff that, you know, you need to unpack. and Maybe you don't want to, but I went my entire life until the past year. Never going into therapy, never went to therapy. I'm like, yeah, that's great.You know, if you have some serious problems or a really bad childhood or whatever, like yeah. That's, you know, I support, it like positive, you know, like golf clap and I'm like, oh my gosh since I've been going on. I'm like I didn't know why I was doing the things I was doing, what my reasons were, what my motivations were, the ways that it was unhealthy to me, the way that it was affecting my relationships.So I just want to encourage everyone to go to therapy. I promise it's going to be beneficial[00:20:53] Nathan:Yeah.I cannot echo that enough. I've had the same experience and just having someone to talk through whatever's going on in your life, whatever, like even just interesting observations. When someone said this, I reacted like that. And that doesn't quite add up. Like, can we spend some time digging into that kind of, you know, and you realize that like, oh, that wasn't, that wasn't a normal, like healthy reaction.And it had nothing to do with what the person said or who they are or anything like that. I had to do it. This other thing, the other thing that I think is interesting about therapy is when you're following people online, you're partially following them for the advice and what they can do for you and all of that.But I think the most interesting creators to follow are the ones who are on a journey and they bring their audience, their fans, along that journey with them. And a lot of people are on a really shallow journey or at least what they put out online is a really shallow journey of like a, I'm trying to grow a business from X to Y I'm trying to accomplish this thing.And it's like, Like, I'm happy for you. There's like tips and tactics that you use along the way. And that's moderately interesting, but I think if you're willing to dive in on therapy and why you do, or you make the decisions that you do and what really drives things, it makes for as much deeper journey, that's a lot more interesting to follow. And all of a sudden the person that you followed for like learning how to do Facebook ads is talking about not only that, but the sense of gratitude that they were able to find in the accomplishments that they made or how they help people in this way or other things that's like a really authentic connection.And I think that, even though like growing a more successful business is not the goal of therapy and, and all of that. Like, it has that as a by-product.[00:22:42] Sean:It does. It definitely does. Although I'm, I definitely look at things the way that you're saying, which is like, what is. Productive output of doing this thing. And it's like, yeah, that's why I need to be in therapy to understand why I apply that lens to absolutely everything. but I I've found it immensely helpful.I would say I would echo what you're saying. in terms of sharing your journey, both the ups and the downs. I think that the highs of your journey are only as high as the lowest that you share, because otherwise it's just kind of it's, it's flat, you know, there's nothing to compare to like th th in the hero's-journey-sense you know, we we're rooting for the underdog who is going through challenges, and then we're celebrating with them when they have the wins.If you know, if you're not sharing the, the, the low points, it's not as relatable. Now that doesn't mean you have to share everything you're going through. You don't, you know, you can keep some things, you can keep everything personal. I'm just saying, if you have the courage to share what you're going to find is that you're not alone.You're not the only person going through these things. You're not the only person feeling these things. And sometimes the biggest failures or, or the things that, that hurt the most or the most difficult to go through when you share those, those can actually resonate the most. That can be where your, your community really steps up.And you, you feel that, more than any other time.[00:24:07] Nathan:Yeah. I think that, like I wrote this article a few years ago, titled endure long enough to get noticed, and it was just actually wrote it, it was off the cuff. I was on a plane just like needed to get something out that week. And it was an idea about serum on my head and I wrote, wrote it out, send it off.And, just the replies from it, because it took a more personal angle and it was talking about some of the struggles and a bunch of the replies were like, oh, that's exactly what I needed in this moment. Like, I was about ready to give up on this thing, you know? And, and that was that bit of encouragement. It ends up being this thing that feeds both ways. If you're able to take care of your audience and then if you let them, your audience can take care of you of saying like, oh, that that was really, really, meaningful.[00:24:49] Sean:Can I turn it around on you for just a second and, and ask, I, I know Nathan, you've been writing recently, you're on a bit of a streak and for those. Following your journey for a long time. They know you've, you've gone on streaks for periods of time. You made an app to log those things. We're talking about this recently.And I was just curious, what, what made you start writing again? And it may be, if you can touch on like the identity piece that you were sharing with me.[00:25:17] Nathan:Yeah.So most good things that have come in my business. Many of them, at least for a whole period of time, he came from writing. I wrote a thousand words a day for over 600 days in a row. And like, that was. Multiple books, a 20,000 subscriber audience, like just a whole bunch of things so I can work it from and everything else. And I've, I've tried to restart that habit a handful of times since then. And yeah, you were asking the other day, I'm trying to think, where are we out of the brewery? Maybe? I don't know.[00:25:51] Sean:Yeah. Something like.[00:25:51] Nathan:Well, I've all something. And you're just asking like, Hey, you're restarting that what what's driving that. And the thing that came to, I actually came to it in a coaching therapy conversation was like, I'm a writer. That's who I am. You know, it's part of my identity and yes, I'm also a, a creator and a startup founder and CEO and whatever else, but like, realizing that. I'm most at home when I'm writing, that's not what I'm doing. Writing is my full-time thing. And like, here's the cadence that I put out books, you know, obvious thing of like Ryan holiday, he's super prolific, like a book or two a year, you know?I'm not a writer in that way, but I, I have things to say and, words have an impact on people in the act of writing has such an impact on me that I realized that I feel somewhat of this void if I don't exercise that muscle and stay consistent of not just like teaching and sharing, but also taking these unformed thoughts that bounce around in my head and it, and like being forced to put them out in an essay that is actually coherent and backs up its points and like, Yeah, it makes it clear.So anyway, that's the, that's why I'm writing again. And so far it's been quite enjoyable. I'm only on, I think, 20 days in a row of writing, writing every day, but it's coming along now. I have to look. 21 today will be 22.[00:27:19] Sean:Nice. Yeah. Right. Writing is so great for clarifying thinking. And I love the, the identity piece. It's like, I'm a writer, you know, that's what I do. And I think it's interesting to think about whether it's kind of chicken and the egg, right. Maybe, maybe James clear would, would disagree, but like, does it start with a belief that you're a writer and therefore you write, or is it the act of writing that makes you a writer?And if you, if you aren't writing, then you're not.[00:27:50] Nathan:Yeah. I wrote something recently and maybe it's a quote from somebody of, if you want to be the noun and you have to do the verb, you know, and so we're looking for, how do I become a writer? How do I become a painter? How do I become a musician An artist, any of these things? And it's like, if you want to be a writer?Yyou have to write, you know, like, and I think we, we get so caught up in the end state that we start to lose track of the, the verb, the thing of like writers, write painters, paint, photographers, take photos, you know? And so if you're not seeing progress in that area, then it's like, well, are you actually doing the verb?And yeah, that plays a lot into identity and, and everything else.[00:28:37] Sean:I like what James, James clear says about like casting a vote for the person you want to[00:28:43] Nathan:Yeah, I think I referenced James on. So it's the, I reference you probably every fourth episode. And then James, maybe at like, just on alternating ones.So the thing that I quote you on all the time is the show up every day for two years, like I always had create every day as a poster on my wall, and I really liked the for two years, angle. And so I I'd love for you to share where does the for two years part come from and why, why that long? Why not for two months or two decades or something else?[00:29:16] Sean:Right. It really, the whole show up every day for two years, idea came from me, drawing letters, hand lettering. You know, you think of the Coca-Cola logo. That's not a font. That's, you know, customer. That's what I would do is draw letters. Like, like what you have behind your head, that type of style of lettering.And I just enjoyed doing that and I, it wasn't a job or anything, and I really didn't pursue it seriously for a long time, even though I enjoyed it as a kid, because I thought I could never make a living at this, you know? And it's that like productivity filter again, what can I be successful at? You know, as opposed to like, Hey, what do I enjoy?You know? And, it took an artist telling me, Hey, if you enjoy it, just create. because cause you enjoy doing it. Just create. I was like, yeah, I don't know why I needed that permission, but I did. And I just started creating and I was creating for me, like, because I loved it. And I was sharing on Instagram and Twitter and places like that, the drawings I was making, but nobody really cared or noticed for the first two years.And it, it, it, that was okay with me because I was doing it for myself. I loved the process. I love the act of. But somewhere right around two years, it was just this inflection point. It's kinda like you say, you know, like do it until you're noticed, right. And people started asking for custom commissions, do you have posters?Do you have t-shirts? And the reason I recommend that people show up every day for two years is it's not going to happen overnight. You know, hopefully in that time you find the reason for yourself that you're showing up. and the two years part is arbitrary for some people within eight months, they're on the map and people notice their work and maybe they could quit their job or, or whatever.Right. But two years is really just to give people a mark, you know, to, to work towards. by that time they figure out like, oh, it's not actually about two years. It's about showing up every day.[00:31:16] Nathan:Yeah. And a lot of what I like about two years is it since your time horizon correctly. and it helps you measure your like past efforts. I think about, you know, if you've thought about starting a, like learning a musical instrument or starting a blog or any of those things, you're like, eh, I tried that before, you know, and you're like, yeah, I showed up most days kind of for two months, maybe, you know, like when you look back and you analyze it, you're like, oh, I didn't show up every day for two years. And there's also sort of this implicit, I guess conversation you have with yourself of like, if I do this, will I get the results that I want? And cause the, the most frustrating thing would be to put in the effort and to not get the results and how the outcome you're. Like, I tried it for so long and I didn't get there. And so I believe that if you're doing something like creating consistently showing up every day, writing every day for two years and you're publishing it and you're learning from what you, you know, the results you try and consistently to get better, you almost can't lose. Like, I don't know of examples of people.Like no one has come to me. I actually emailed this to my whole list and said, like, what is something that you've done every day for two years, that didn't work. And people came back to me with story after story of things that they thought would be that. And then it like started working a year or year and a half in, or at some point in there because it's really hard to fail when you're willing to show up consistently for a long period of time.[00:32:54] Sean:And I think there's a point of clarification there kind of a nuanced discussion where some people might say, well, you know, where where's, where's the other end of the spectrum, where you're just continually doing a thing that doesn't work, you know, doing the same thing and expecting different results.And I don't think that's what we're talking about here. Like when we say show up every day, Showing up everyday to your craft, you know, for yourself to better yourself, whether that's writing or drawing or working on your business. This doesn't mean never course-correcting, this doesn't mean adapting or adjusting to find product market fit.We're talking about showing up for yourself. This doesn't mean even posting every day. It's not, it's really not for others. Like share what you want. If you want to tweet every day, if you want to blog or post your art every day, go for it. I actually tried that and, you know, it was pretty exhausting and that's part of why I made Daily Content Machine.I was like, how about I show up one hour a week and you turn that into Daily Content for me. but still on all the other days, I want to show up for myself. And, and often for me, it starts with writing as well. I think it all starts with writing, whether it's a business idea or a course or a book or content like writing is just the seed of all of that.So I like writing, not because I. It was born a rider or anything. I just see results from it. So for me, it's showing up in writing, even if I'm not posting that, or I'm not posting it now, you know, it's just for me.[00:34:19] Nathan:Yeah. And that's an important point because a lot of the time my writing is just chipping away at some bigger thing. Like some of the long essays that I've written have been written over the course of three or four months, you know, it's not like I got it together and like published it and it was ready to go.It was like an ongoing thing.What, like, what are some of your other writing habits? Because you're someone who has written a ton, I've seen you consistently write like 4,000 words a day for an entire month and stuff like that. yeah. When someone asks you, how do I become a better writer? How do I write consistently any of that? What are some of your tips?[00:34:55] Sean:Yeah. I'll tell you how not to do it, which is how I've done it, which is back to our earlier discussion. Just kind of all or nothing. my first book I wrote in 14 days, 75, 80,000 words, and my, my second book, which I still haven't edited and published. I was like, I want to show people that things take, as long as the amount of time you give them, how long does it take to write a book a year, 10 years a month?You know, two weeks, I was like, I'm going to try and write a hundred thousand words in a single day. So I live streamed it, and my idea was to speak it and have it dictated, right. Have it transcribed. I made it to 55,000 words. And these are like, it's, it's all you, you can find it. it's, it's coherent words like this.Isn't just feel like, like the book was in my head. I made it to 55,000. My voice was going and I'm like, I think I've got most of the book. I'm not going to kill my voice. And that's, as far as I made it. So I failed on the goal, but still got 55,000 words. But then for the next, like three, three or six months or something I hardly wrote.Cause I was just like, oh yeah, you know, look what I did. You know, I wrote all those words and it's like, no, that's not the right way to do it. Like I actually, I think there was a point to what I was doing and it was, it was a fun stunt or whatever, but I kind of regret that, you know, I wish I just stuck to, you know, you had that, that idea of like write a thousand words a day and this is something I would share with people as like an idea for starting out, Hey, try and read a thousand words a day.And I found out people would get stuck on that. They'd be like, I wrote 830, 2 words. I'm a failure. I'm just gonna give up and wait until the weekend when I have more time. And it's like, no, that's not the point. The point is to just show up and, and put some words there. So maybe for you, it's a time like write for 20 minutes, write for 15 minutes, write three sentence.And maybe you keep going, you know, but like put in the reps, show up, you know, put on the running shoes and go out the front door. If you don't run the five miles, that's fine. You know, walk around the block, but show up. And so I I've done it both ways and I don't prefer the stunt way where I write 50,000 words in a day.I prefer the, the, the ones where I write 400 words every single day, that week[00:37:06] Nathan:Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And I've, I've, had that a lot of times where I was like, oh, I can't write today because I, I wouldn't have time to hit 500 or a thousand words. And so that's something I'm doing differently this time around of like, look even a hundred or 200 is a, is a success, any amount of, of doing the reps as good.[00:37:26] Sean:I want to lean in on that idea of defining success as less. What I mean by defining success as less is, and this is especially helpful. If you're going through a hard time, if you're feeling burned out, if you're feeling depressed, w with remote work, growing and growing, you know, w we're commuting less, we have more time.We have more flexibility in our day, but we, we tend to fill that time with just more and more work. And it's really easy to get to the point where you feel overloaded. And you, you go into your day just too ambitious thinking. You can get too many things done and ending with disappointment. Like I didn't get all the things done, you know, and you're just on this perpetual cycle of disappointment every day, setting yourself up for disappointment, trying to do too much.And instead of defining success as less. And so if you're, if you're feeling depressed, I mean, this gets as small as today as a success. If you brush your teeth, like today's a success. If you shower, today's a success. If you walk around just your block, that's it not run a mile, you know, not come up with a new business plan or outline a whole course or something.Less defined success is less, when I would do podcasts, I, you know, a podcast is what an hour, maybe two hours or something like that. But it takes a lot of energy. If you've never been on a podcast, you know, it takes energy to record. And I would feel bad after I record a podcast, not getting as much done afterward, you know, like, oh, I didn't get that much done.I mean, I recorded a podcast, but then I was supposed to have this and this and this, and just beat myself up. And I realized like, Hey, that, that podcast I recorded, that's going to be heard by thousands of people. That's really high leverage work. And I brought my best self and I really showed up and I really delivered.And that was good work. And you know what, on days where I have a podcast, I'm going to define that day as a success. If I show up and record that podcast, anything else is a bonus. And, and you just make that smaller and smaller and smaller until it's accessible to you until it's attainable for you. So maybe it's like write three sentences.If you show up at all to your writing app and write three sentences, the days of success. And what you'll find is more often than. You'll keep going.[00:39:34] Nathan:I think that's so important in, and I imagine most creators have been in that position of no motivation feeling depressed. And then you beat yourself up because you didn't get anything done, like deriving yourself worth. This kind of goes back to the earlier conversation, driving your self worth from what you create can both be very powerful in that it can feed itself really well.And then it is also incredibly fragile. And I've gotten to that point where if you end up in the downward spiral version of that, then like not creating, not accomplishing something. Leads you to feel more upset and depressed and so on. And it like when it works, it works well. And when it stops working, it fails spectacularly.And I think you're right. That the only way out of it is to lower that bar of success to something crazy low that you can't consistently. And then, you know, gradually you're way out of it from there.[00:40:34] Sean:Yeah, you, you are more than what you do. You are more than what you create. You are more than what you produce. You are more than your job. You are not your company. You're not the money in the bank. You're not how much you make each month. You're not the decline in revenue from this month compared to last month.Like you're none of those things. You're a person you're a human outside of that with independent work. And that's such a hard thing to internalize, but, but if you can, I mean, you, you, you just become impervious to all the things that can come against you. You know, you just become unstoppable. Nothing's going to phase you.Like you can embrace the highs and embrace the lows and just ride the rollercoaster. And I'm just describing all the things that I don't know how to do, but I'm working.[00:41:20] Nathan:Yeah. It's all the things that we're trying to, like lean in on and remind ourselves of, in those, in those tough times, I have a friend who has his game, that he played his, a few little kids, and his sort of a little game that he plays with them over time. And he like in a playful, joking voice, he asked them like, oh, what do you need to do to be worthy of love? And it's like turned into the thing for they, like, they're like nothing, you know? And he's very purposefully trying to counteract this idea of like, oh, I need to earn worthiness. I need to earn love. If, if I like show up for my parents in this way, if I take care of my family in that way, if I'm not a burden on other people, then like, Then I'll be okay and I'll be worthy of love and all of that.And so he's just playing it, like making it a playful thing with his kids from a very young age to basically instill this idea of like, you are a complete whole person and you can't, like earn worthiness of love and you also can't lose it.[00:42:19] Sean:I'm just thinking of the titles for this episode, that my team's going to come up with, like how to be a founder worthy of love.[00:42:26] Nathan:Yes, exactly.[00:42:28] Sean:Don't use that title.[00:42:31] Nathan:Okay. But I want to go, you've built a, a team twice, for first for Sean West, as a business, you know, of the course and content, community business. And then now for Daily Content, I want to get into, like what you like, how you built the team differently between those two times and what you learned. but before we do that, let's talk about as a solo creator. When you're thinking about making that leap to something where you need a team to build it to the next level, maybe you're at a hundred thousand dollars a year in sales, and you're looking at maybe the roommate's eighties and the Marie Forleo's of the world where like a few, rungs above you on the same ladder.And you're like, okay, that would require a team. What are some of the things that you think people should consider in that leap?[00:43:22] Sean:My biggest mistake was applying the right advice at the wrong time.Like I'm not a, I'm not a reckless person. Like I'm going to do my research and learn and like get all the smart people's advice. And so every, every big mistake I've made was as a result of applying great advice from smart people at the wrong time.And so it's, and, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone really, really talk about this. There's a lot of people slinging advice who should really be asking questions, but at the same time, you can't even blame them. Cause like Twitter, there's no room for nuance. Like you tweet fortune cookie tweets, you know, with, with advice and like, hope that people apply it at the right time.Like, that's just kind of how it goes. But like, you know, to, to your point of like looking to other people and what they've built and like, oh, that's what I would need and stuff, you know, I, I heard things. Delegate, you know, you don't want superhero syndrome. Like you need to empower other people and delegate the things you're not good at delegate the things you don't like to do, delegate the things you're good at.And you like to do, but you shouldn't do because you're the founder and you need the vision, you know, like, so it's like delegate, delegate. And so, okay. All right. Hire. This is going to sound really stupid, but no one told me that you need to make sure the thing that you're doing is working before you hire, because hiring is scaling, which means to make something bigger.And if you've got a bucket at the beach and the bucket has holes in it, and you scale that bucket, you have a bigger bucket with holes. Like th th that's not better. That's like, do you, do you like the stressful problems you have now? How would you like problems with another zero on that? Like you have $30,000 problems.Do you want $300,000 a month problems? Like, you know, it's not fun. so nobody's told me that and looking back, it's like, it's so dumb. Like, do you think making this big. Automatically makes it better. It's just going to automatically make the problems go away. No, you need to, you need to scale. What's working, do more of what works and, and, and slow down and hold off and make sure the thing you have is working before you grow it.I don't know if I answered the question, but I'm just speaking to my past self.[00:45:32] Nathan:You totally did. So what are the things that, like, how does that play out as you're building Daily Content Machine, versus the previous team?[00:45:40] Sean:The difference here is my, my previous business required me to function and I hired people around me, you know, to support me. So I wasn't doing all the work, but I had to show up. I had to, you know, whatever I had to write, I, you know, come up with an email or blog or. Or live stream or podcast or whatever.It was like, it was built around me and there's nothing wrong with that. Like, that's totally fine. You can build a business where you do what you love and you're supported by your team. I just found that you can, you can do something that you love and burnout, like after you do that for years and years and years, it's not even that I don't like podcasting or I don't like writing cause I actually do what it ultimately came down to is that I don't like having to do it.And if I don't, if I don't, then everything falls apart. And so with this new business, the agency, it was like, okay, like the first thing I want to build from is this can't require me to function. It has to be built in a way that the team can run things where it's like, I don't have to be on the strategy call.I don't have to do the marketing. Like my face isn't necessarily the reason people are coming to. and that, that really shifted how we build things.[00:47:01] Nathan:Yeah. I mean, that, that's a huge thing. And like, I imagine you defining all of these roles and early on, you might be doing a bunch of them to test if it works and to build out the systems, but none of them are like defined by your own unique skillset. Like you actually I've loved watching your systems and the, as you've shown me behind the scenes, because you're breaking it down and you don't need one person who is a fantastic video editor and copywriter and project manager talking about that, actually, because I think so often we're trying to find the employee or the team member. That's like the, the unicorn perfect fit. And you've made a system that doesn't require.[00:47:42] Sean:Exactly. And we did start out that way, where, when, when I was initially hiring for, you know, this Daily Content Machine service that we have, what's involved in that process and we talked. Clients and prospects all the time that like the Mo one of the most common things they try to do is either build a team in-house that can find all the best moments scrubbed through the long form content, edit it.Well, you know, titles, research, all of that, the build that team in house, or hire a freelancer and the problems with either of those is like what I've identified as it comes down to the person doing, doing content repurposing well requires nine key skills among them like copywriting and marketing and design and animation and rendering, and like, you know, SEO and all of that stuff.And I'm not saying there's, there's no one out there with all those skills, but, but those people are doing their own thing most of the time,[00:48:38] Nathan:I think I'm a pretty good Jack of all trades. And I think if we get to five of those, probably maybe on a[00:48:45] Sean:You could probably do most, I can do most too, but I don't scale, you know, so I'm trying to, I'm trying to scale me. and the first thing I tried to do was hire someone who could do all the things like, okay, you need to be able to, and that very quickly was not the way that was not going to work.So we realized we need specialists. We need people who are really good writers. We need people who are really good animators. People who are good editors, people who are a good quality assurance, reviewers, people who are good project managers, you know, all of that. And that's, that's what probably sets us apart.You know, the most unique thing is like, we learn about your audience and we find all of the moments and like teaching people, I've talked to people who have their own teams, or they're trying to build teams for doing this. And that's the hardest part is how do you teach someone how to find those moments?Like video editing is commoditized. You can find a video editor anywhere, but what happens when you try and get a freelancer who can just chop up clips and animate it and put a slap a title on it? Yeah. Th they're not, they don't care about the quality. They're not capitalizing the book titles and the company names and spelling the guests.Right. You know, and the titles of the clips, that's like half of it, you know, like half of it is the title, because that's going to determine whether someone sticks around and clicks or watches or whatever, and they're not thinking the right way, or they're not finding the right moments. And so the person who's outsourcing, they're trying to go from, I've been doing this myself.I've been editing my own video. I've been scrubbing through my own long form content to now, okay, you have got this freelancer, but now you're a project manager and a quality assurance reviewer because their work isn't up to par. And so I have people asking me like, how do you teach people how to do this?Well, how to find those moments, what's going to provide value to the audience. How do you title it all? and that part, I'm not giving away because that's, that's our home.[00:50:33] Nathan:Yeah. And that, that makes sense. So you described Daily Content Machine as an agency and it is, but I was like, great. You're an agency. Here's my other idea for a show where. Like a dream it up and produce it. Or actually we build my website for me, like your, your designers on all that.Right. And your answer would be like a flattened and I think that's really important for the business. So can you talk about the difference between the agency that you're running in productized services and how you think about making that scale versus like a, an agency of, Hey, this is our hourly rate.These are the projects we're best at, but we'll kind of take on anything.[00:51:11] Sean:So maybe I'll I'll I'll title the clip of this moment, how here's, how you will try it like this. Here's how you create a six figure agency. And for. It is by saying no to almost everything and getting really specific about what you offer and to whom. So my previous, the previous iteration of my business, I was out of a scale of one to ten I was working at a level 11 effort, you know, to bring in six figures with this version of the business. It's like a one or two in terms of, you know, getting people to give you vast amounts of money. And the difference is in what you're providing and, and to whom. So you've kind of got this, this matrix of products or services that either make money for your clients, or they're just nice to have.And then on the people side, you have, it's a generalization, but people who have money and people who don't, and I was always playing on hard mode, you know, I was trying to sell like kind of more premium stuff to people who didn't have money. And I'm like, you know, feeling bad about not being able to give stuff to the people who don't have money.And it's like, you know, what a really great way to do this would be to provide premium services that make money for people who have. So I decided I'm going to start with six to seven figure business owners. What is it that they need? And what is it that, that I'm good at, you know, core competencies. And that's where we came up with this idea.And the hardest part has been not giving into shiny object syndrome. All of the things that we could do, all of the services that I want to build. And it's like, no, there's so much more juice in this one thing. If we just stick to this and just become the best at finding, identifying, and producing and distributing clips from long form content and just be really, really good at that.There's enough complexity in that, you know, and just see that as the game, like, how can we get really good at this? How can we sell this better? How can we deliver it better? How can we increase the quality and just getting really focused and aligning what you offer the value of that to the people you're offering it to within four weeks with just a page and a form.This was a six figure book.[00:53:16] Nathan:When I think about the price of the offering. So I think I have. for what I pay for and Daily Content Machine paying about $5,000 a month. Is that right? I think somewhere in there.[00:53:28] Sean:So, what we didn't say is you, you kind of talked me into, adding another service, which is, we also do the video and audio show notes, transcript, like podcast production piece. So like, we'll produce the full thing. You just show up and record sync the footage to us. We'll produce the show and we'll make the clips.That's actually been a really nice bundle, but I'm like, okay, that's it, that's it. You know? So you kind of have some extra services in there.[00:53:53] Nathan:Yeah.To be clear, you don't want to let your friends, even if they live in the same town, as you convince you to like change your agency,[00:54:00] Sean:Nathan's very convincing.[00:54:03] Nathan:I distinctly remember. I even invited you over for dinner and convinced you of it,[00:54:07] Sean:How am I supposed to say no,[00:54:08] Nathan:Exactly.[00:54:10] Sean:You made an offer. I couldn't refuse.[00:54:13] Nathan:But in that, so you're talking about like what you're selling to someone who might not be able to afford it, or like you might make a course that you charge $5,000 for that is absolutely worth every bit of that when in the right person's hand and apply it in the right way. But you're going to have a bunch of people trying to buy it, who like, aren't that person who's going to get the leverage to make it a clear 10 X value or something like that. And so you might have in this position where someone's like, oh, $5,000 is expensive. Should I buy it? I don't know. And you're like, honestly for you, I don't know if you should buy it.Like you're not in the target market and that's, that's $5,000 one time in the case of this. And this agency, this productized service, I guess, $5,000 a month. And so actually two of those clients, and you've got a six figure a year agency business. And it's just interesting. The thing that you said made me really drove home the point of, there's not necessarily a correlation between effort and income and, and effort and output. And so you found a model and kept, kept tweaking until you found one where it was like, look, there's a ton of work that goes into this, obviously. And there's a bunch of really smart people working on editing and transcribing and captioning and everything in the show. but like, it, it doesn't have to be crazy complicated, whereas some of the other business models that you and I have both tried have been way more effort for way less.[00:55:40] Sean:Yeah. And what can really hold you back is not realizing who you're trying to market to. And. getting Talked down in your prices by accidentally catering to the wrong people. So like people who can't afford your services, you could get on call consultation calls with them. And they're just like, I just don't have this much money and can you do discounts?And you, you almost start to feel bad. Like, you know, how can I charge this much? I must be charging way too much. And it's like, or maybe you're serving the wrong customers. Like, you know, when you talk to the right people, that may actually be really cheap. I remember when I started designing logos, this is like a decade ago.My first logo, I charged like 150 And then, once I sold that I got enough confidence to charge 300. And then I was like, I, you know what, instead of doubling again, I'm going to charge $750[00:56:30] Nathan:Ooh.[00:56:31] Sean:I did that. And you know, I'm like slowly building on my portfolio and I got up to like, $1,500 and clients were paying that and right around there, you start to get people resisting.Now you've got a price with a comma and it gives people. pause And they're like, can you come down? Can you do a little bit cheaper? And it's so tempting. You, you want to do that because you want the job. You, you want them to be happy. It could be a good portfolio item. And I remember just kind of fast forwarding through this, but like, you know, just mindset shifts and stuff.Eventually I got to the point where there was this startup out of San Francisco they wanted a logo. And I was like, this would be really valuable for this company, you know? And I somehow mustered up the courage to charge $4,000. And I found out later from a friend of a friend, you know, from someone that worked there that they thought I was like super cheap because someone else they knew or some other agency was going to charge $25,000 And I was like, wow, like I'm over here. Just like feeling bad about my prices, thinking I'm going so big. And really I'm. I was just serving the wrong code.[00:57:34] Nathan:Yeah. And it's so interesting because the person who's only able to pay $500 or only thinks the logo is worth $500. It's not that they're wrong or they're devaluing your service or something like that. It's that maybe it's for a side project or it's for a business that just got off the ground or any of that. And so it's not worth getting offended over or something like that. It's like, we just don't have product market fit, like product customer fit. It's not a thing here, you know, and my services are better for, you know, bigger, more established companies. So the saying no to, to, services, occasionally getting talked into specific services by your somewhat annoying local friends. but then where does it go from here as far as what are you looking to, to, to add more clients and, and keep scaling and growing?[00:58:30] Sean:Yeah. That's what we're trying to figure out right now is it's always tricky. It's a blessing and a curse when you have an audience, because it can kind of create false product market fit. Like you, you think you have something and then you exhaust your audience and then you're like, oh, like I kinda need to figure this out.You know, that's like, we're experiencing that right now because like, I was getting like 40% close rates on consultation calls on sales calls, and now we're not, and it's. Oh, no, like what's happening. And it's like, well, I think those people probably knew me for several years, you know? And then like, there's just all this trust and still Nathan we're a year in and we don't have, like, we don't have a proper website for, for the agency.It's like a page with a form. That's it? There's no, there's no examples. There's no case studies. There's no portfolio item and we've made it this far. but you know, when people don't know you, they need that social proof and they want the examples and they're looking for past versions of success. And like the sales cycle is a little bit longer.And so that's where we're at right now is like figuring out kind of like Mar marketing channel fit. And I know well enough to know, like it's better to, and back to right advice, wrong time. it's a good idea to be everywhere if you can, you know, cause different people consume on different platforms.Even if you don't use Instagram. Other people do, even if you don't use YouTube, other people do it's. Beyond LinkedIn, even if you don't, you know, that like there's, there's some, there's some sound reasoning to that at the same time. You don't want to try to do all of that all at once, you know, and, and spread yourself too thin, like pick one channel, do one channel.Well, and when you've got that down and it's easy and you have systems and it's not taking too much time, then expand to another channel with the goal of like, ultimately diversifying kind of like investments. You don't want to just diversify all at once. You know, like, like try some things out, you know, focus on one thing at a time, see what works for us.I, at least I know that much. And so it's like, okay, I'm not trying to do every version of marketing, you know, like, oh, do we do affiliates? Do we do ads? You know, do we do content? Do we do cold outreach? You know? I'm trying not to do everything at once. So we're kind of dabbling in one thing at a time and seeing what fits.[01:00:48] Nathan:So how many clients do you have now for the agency that are the consistent tenders?[01:00:53] Sean:Not a lot. It's still very small. And we've had like, I it's under a dozen cause like some, we had like several accounts, like not renew and stuff. So it's still very small. And for three or four months, I stopped marketing and sales completely because I did not want to break this thing with scale because I notice things in operation that were the operations that were not going well.I'm like, this is going to be really bad. Like if we just sign more clients, it's going to be really bad. So, I had clients pay upfront for like six months or 12 months of service, which kind of gave us time to focus on operations. And now everything's humming along smoothly. Like the systems we've built can support like dozens or hundreds of accounts, even like, we don't need it right now, but it'll support where we want to go.But it's still a very, it's actually very small, like again done, like almost no marketing a year end, still don't have a website. Like it's pretty much just been all internal focused.[01:01:52] N
Ryan Rosoff is making music for friendship and legacy. His band Little King explores the intersection of metal and prog rock. They have a new album out called Amuse De Q, now streaming just about everywhere. We talk about his travels, his roots in the Seattle sound of the 90s, music as a career outside of a career, leaving a legacy, practicing music and life for motivation, meditation, venturing into the world of TikTok and more. Ryan reminded me that the limitations of our time and existence are worth daily contemplation. I found our conversation and his outlook on life and music to be inspiring. Please enjoy my conversation with Ryan Rosoff of Little King. This episode is powered by Music Marketing Method, a program for indie musicians looking to grow their music career but don't know. Learn more! Support the Unstarving Musician The Unstarving Musician exists solely through the generosity of its listeners, readers, and viewers. Learn how you can offer your support. Mentioned in this Episode Related Episodes Resources The Unstarving Musician's Guide to Getting Paid Gigs, by Robonzo No Booker, No Bouncer, No Bartender: How I Made $25K On A 2-Month House Concert Tour, by Shannon Curtis Bandzoogle – The all-in-one platform that makes it easy to build a beautiful website for your music ConvertKit for Musicians More Resources for musicians Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means I make a small commission, at no extra charge to you, if you purchase using those links. Thanks for your support! Visit UnstarvingMusician.com/Podcasts for related links, episode transcripts and past guests. Sign up for the Unstarving Musician email newsletter at UnstarvingMusician.com Stay in touch! @RobonzoDrummer on Twitter and Instagram @UnstarvingMusician on Facebook and YouTube
Howard Wolpoff is a marketing executive with over 25 years of experience helping hundreds of businesses create profitable solutions to drive sales, attract and maintain customers, and build a solid corporate brand. https://profitmasterbusinesssolutions.com/podcast/ *** Are you interested in starting or growing a podcast with the support of my team and a community of experienced podcasters? Join my Podcaster Pod. You get... Full access to my 8-module podcasting course taking you from idea to launch and everything in between. Equipment and tech, Recording and publishing. Scripts and templates. Everything! Access to me, my team, and a group of experienced podcasters through a private Slack channel Monthly Q&A calls with me and the other Podcaster Pod members. Quarterly Expert Calls Access to me and my network –– meaning I will introduce you to other influencers and people who can help you where it makes sense. Consider joining my new membership site for $27/month. Go to https://dannyozment.com/pod Use code JOINPODPOD to get a 1-month free trial. *** Do you have a website for your business or personal brand or are you building one? If so, then you need WPX hosting. I use WPX for all of my sites and so do many of our clients. For $25/month, WPX's Business Plan gives you Hosting for 5 Websites 10 GB Storage 100 GB Bandwidth Free SSL certificates The WPX Cloud Content Delivery Network They average around 30 second support response time 24/7/365 around the world Provide free unlimited site migration from any host to WPX, usually completed within 24 hours And they are fast because they never overload servers with hosting accounts, unlike so-called 'cheap' hosting which crumbles under any traffic load Sign up for the WPX Business Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/wpx *** Are you building an email list for your business or personal brand? If so, then you need ConvertKit. I use ConvertKit for my list and so do most of our clients. For $29/month, ConvertKit's Creator Plan manages up to 1,000 subscribers Provides unlimited landing pages & forms Sends email broadcasts Provides the ability to Sell digital products & subscriptions Has super fast Email support AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... Gives you Free migration from another tool AND Automated funnels & sequences Get a free 14-day trial of the Creator Plan by visiting https://dannyozment.com/convertkit *** My Recommended Resources - https://dannyozment.com/resources
Is there an app you always click on? A channel you gravitate to? A community that never fails to inspire you or make you laugh? For creators like Charli and Jay Clouse, that app is Twitter. After watching a friend create ceramics for 100 days straight with incredible success, Jay was inspired to explore fostering that consistency on Twitter. Jay developed a hashtag that auto-populated an online dashboard to help participants share their results publicly. This feature allowed participants and followers to show engagement in real-time.In this episode, Charli and Miguel talk with Jay about what happens when you commit yourself to consistency, the power of public accountability, and why asking your audience for support is always acceptable. “Twitter I think is an underestimated and misunderstood platform for lead generation too and meeting new people and getting your ideas in front of new people. And every time that I did put some effort into sharing my ideas on Twitter, it went well.” ~ @jayclouseMain takeaways [02:14] Twitter is one of the shortest paths to meeting people you're actually interested in getting to know. Users are very responsive in their replies, so you're also more likely to have a conversation in a low-risk environment. [16:15] Public accountability is a great motivator. Adding a challenge or goal to your Twitter bio increases your likelihood of success. [31:11] Asking people for support can feel awkward, but it's fair to ask for compensation from people if you're providing consistent value. If you ask for support with low pressure and show visibility for where you'll use the money, there's nothing to feel awkward about. Connect with our hosts Charli Prangley Miguel Pou Jay Clouse Links Watch The Future Belongs to Creators on YouTube Jay Clouse Jay on Twitter Creative Elements Join #Tweet100 Michael Ian Black Mark Hoppus Twitter Facebook Instagram LinkedIn Lalese Stamps Automate All The Things Zapier Integromat Airtable Dickie Bush David Perell Typefully Hypefury ilo Tweet Hunter Creative Elements #51: Dickie Bush [Feedback Loops] Creative Elements #35: David Perell [Serendipity] Buy Jay Clouse A Coffee Creative Elements #64: Charli Marie Prangley [Commitment] - Building a YouTube Channel with 200K subscribers (on the side!) Got a story to tell on The Future Belongs to Creators podcast?We'd love to have you on the show to talk about successes or failures you've experienced on your creator journey. Submit your story here!Start building your audience for freeWith ConvertKit landing pages, you can build a beautiful page for your project in just a few minutes. Choose colors, add photos, build a custom opt-in form, and add your copy. All without writing any code! Check out landingpages.new to get started.Stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Twitter Facebook Instagram
Launches can be stressful... but if you play your cards right, they don't have to be! (I literally went to NYC after I hosted the webinar for my first successful course.) I'm telling you all the things I use to help launch stress free! Sign up for my free webinar & learn how to turn your service into a course! https://heyjessica.com/yourfirstcourse Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicaco
Alyssa and Melissa are email experts who host the Deliverability Defined Podast and work at ConvertKit. We talk about about email marketing stategies, the upcoming Apple udpate and how to approach it, and tons of other tips and tricks about how to level up your email marketing. Links from the show: Get 2 free weeks when you sign up at ConvertKit for being a listener >>> Deliverability Defined Podast
Webinars are my personal favorite way to sell - and they have pretty amazing conversion rates! If you want to make more sales from your webinar (or try one out for the very first time), these are the 5 key elements to a high converting webinar that you need to know. Join the Hustle & Grit Club today: https://hustleandgrit.club Get started with ClickUp for free! https://heyjessica.com/tryclickup Grab my course to learn #allthethings about ClickUp! https://heyjessica.com/clickupcourse Sign up for a FREE month of my favorite email marketing system, ConvertKit at https://heyjessica.com/convertkit Get your FREE month of Audible which includes a FREE book and TWO free audible originals at https://heyjessica.com/audible Follow me on the 'gram! Personal Account: @jessicastansberry Biz Account: @heyjessicaco
Today's episode covers how to choose email providers that will simplify your routine! In this special series we've been bringing you all month long in September, we've discussed best practices for email list building. We started out with episode 8, 7 Link in bio apps for driving traffic, because if you're on Instagram, you need to be building an email list. It doesn't matter where you are. If you are an online marketer or trying to drive traffic somewhere, you need an email list! So go back and listen to episode eight, if you haven't caught it already. That one was a fun one. I did with my son and daughter, and we all just kind of conversed about these seven different options for Instagram Link In Bio. We have sample screenshots and links of all of them in the show notes for that episode. Episode nine was about effective newsletter opt-ins for email list building. My special guest was Sarah Geringer and she taught us more about exactly how to do this and the different places to put it on your website. She also gave us a biblical spin on this and how to give your list up to God and how to honor your readers and to just treat them with respect. Episode 10, How to write newsletters they actually WANT to read. Click below for show notes! https://ruthiegray.mom/6-email-providers-for-newsletter-marketing/ Click below to visit the FREE sticky blogging workshop! https://stickyblogging.com/workshop-free?ref=124 Click below to take the Reels Personality Quiz! https://quiz.tryinteract.com/#/611fc03c688e1f0017ed5f53 Episode 8: 7 Link in bio apps for driving traffic https://ruthiegray.mom/ep-8-7-link-in-bio-apps-for-driving-traffic/ Episode 9: Effective Newsletter Opt-ins for email list building https://ruthiegray.mom/effective-newsletter-opt-ins-email-list-building/ Episode 10: How to write newsletters they actually WANT to read https://ruthiegray.mom/write-newsletters-they-want-to-read/ Now, for the email providers! Let's go through them one at a time. 1. Mailchimp "I'm still with Mailchimp. I just clean out my list every time it looks like I'm getting close to the limit. It's one of the easy and it's free email providers, and I have it set up so I don't have to even think about it most of the time." - Dawn Klinge. Sarah Geringer says, "I am a loyal customer to MC if nothing goes wrong. I've used them for five years and plan to continue!" Click image to visit website! 2. Mailerlite "I still have my old SunSparkleShine email list on Mailchimp but I'm using (and liking) Mailerlite for my coaching site. I made the switch around the time MC said they'd be charging for multiple lists/groups." - Marva Smith Click image to visit website! 3. GetResponse "I used GetResponse for awhile and am now switching to MailerLite. Lots of my clients had it and I liked the user friendly setup but I'm primarily using email now as an author, not a service provider and MailerLite is known for having a lot of great author-specific functions." - Jillian Bright Click image to visit website! 4. Flodesk "Flodesk $19.00 per month, and I absolutely love it! Super easy, very strategic, lots of templates, sequences are awesome, very user friendly. It was a smooth transition from MailChimp. When I go to write a newsletter, everything is streamlined and easy. Video trainings too." - Wren Robbins Click image to visit website! 5. Active Campaign "I like Active Campaign for the best return and best number of opens, automation and customer service." - Melanie Redd Click image to visit website! 6. ConvertKit "I love CK out of many email providers because 1. Email is their biz and we are who they serve, they keep it simple, basic, and always deliver. 2. Their customer service is second to none, and 3. Every time I've tried elsewhere I've returned to them knowing they are...
What does it take to run your own YouTube channel? According to Charli Marie, putting in the work is a good place to start. We know that's not the advice you wanted to hear. But that's the practical truth. You have to do the hard work. By day, Charli is Creative Director at ConvertKit. A creative marketing platform made for creators. And also by day, she is a YouTuber on a mission to help designers improve their worth as professionals. It almost sounds too good to be true, but Charli has built herself what some may call a dream job. On her personal channel, she shares what she's working on at her day job. The good, the bad, and even the financial aspects of it. Which makes her content so fascinating. These are real projects with real stakes attached to them. In this episode, Charli and Chris discuss how she balances these two roles, that can be at odds from time to time, and her strategy for doing so. But most of the conversation centers around what it's like running your own YouTube channel. The benefits, the frustrations, and the awkwardness of recording yourself. If you aspire to start your own YouTube channel then give this episode a listen. It's a long game, but you can learn from those that have played it. This episode is sponsored by Storyblocks - https://www.storyblocks.com/futur Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices