Podcasts about tanzim

#KöşedekiKitapçı'da

Hatip: Abdulhalim İnam (IGMG Eğitim Başkanı) Almanya, Köln – IGMG Genel Merkez Hutbe metnini okumak için linke tıklayabilirsiniz: igmg.org/hutbe

Tanzimat Fermanı, Türk tarihinde Batılılaşmanın ilk somut adımıdır. 3 Kasım 1839'da Sultan Abdülmecid döneminde Hariciye Nazırı Koca Mustafa Reşid Paşa tarafından okunmuştur. Gülhane Parkı'nda okunması nedeniyle Gülhane Hatt-ı Şerifi, Gülhane Hatt-ı Hümâyûnu veya Tanzimât-ı Hayriye olarak da anılır.

Son yüz yetmiş yıldır Müslümanların küfür ve kafir kelimeleriyle başı hoş değildir. Zira Batıcı, laikçi, demokrat, liberal, muhafazakâr… vb. görüşlerin sahipleri küfür ve kafir kelimelerini “köşeli kelimeler” olarak ilan etmişler, Müslümanlar da -bu çevrelere yaranmak için demeyelim- “toplumsal barışın korunması” için o kelimeleri kullanmaktan kaçınmışlardır. En sıcak gündemimiz olarak ABD-İsrail güçlerinin Gazze'deki soykırımına karşı, vicdan sahibi Batılıların gösterdikleri fiili tepkilerle birlikte, o “başı hoş olmama” durumunun daha da belirginleştiğine, hatta sosyal medyada Batı'dan verilen kimi uç örneklerle “Bunun tavrı mı daha Müslümanca yoksa bizimki mi?” sorusu eşliğinde küfür ve kafirlik gerçeğinin çok daha gerilere itilmek istenildiğine tanık oluyoruz. Küfür, kafir ve diğer ilgili kelimelerinin manası için Tehânevî'nin yakın zamanda Ketebe Yayınları arasından çıkan Keşşaf'ına uğradıktan sonra, söz konusu tutumla ilgili, önceden vuku bulmuş kaydî bir itirazı da bu vesileyle iletelim. Tehânevî, mezkûr kelimeler için Şerhu'l-Makâsıd'dan şunları aktarmıştır: “Kâfir imanını izhar ederse münafıktır. İmandan sonra küfrünü izhar ederse mürteddir. Şayet ulûhiyette ortak kabul ederse müşriktir. Şayet neshedilmiş dinlerden ve kitaplardan birini kabul ederse kitâbî adını alır. Eğer zamanın (dehr) kadîm olduğunu ve hâdislerin ona dayandığını söylerse dehrîdir. (Âleme müdahil olan bir) Yaratıcı'yı (el-Bâri) olumlamazsa muattıladandır (yani deisttir). Hz. Peygamber'in peygamberliğini itiraf etmekle birlikte ittifâkla küfür olan inançları dile getirirse zındıktır.” Kayda giren itirazın sahibi ise Mehmet Maksudoğlu Hocamızdır. Osmanlı Devrinde Tunus adlı kıymetli çalışmasının önsözünde şunları yazmıştır: “(Kitabımda) Avrupalı, Frenk, Cenova'lı, Venedikli, Fransız kelimeleriyle birlikte veya bu kelimeler yerine bazen kâfir kelimesini kullandım. Kâfire ‘kâfir' demek, 1856 yılında Islâhat adı verilen düzenleme ile YASAK EDİLDİ. Islâhat, kültür hayâtımızda(ki) ikinci depremdir. İlk deprem, Tanzimât (1839) hareketidir.  Sultan Üçüncü Selim (1789-1807) ileri gelenlerden, yapılması gereken yenilikler için ‘lâyiha' denilen rapor/öneriler almıştı. Tanzimat'ı ilân eden 16 yaşındaki Abdulmecid'i ise, Avrupa'lı kâfirlerin maşası olan, mason Mustafa Reşid Paşa, GİZLİ GÖRÜŞMELERLE ikna etmiş, Tanzimât böyle ilân edilmiştir. Osmanlı Devleti, Kavalalı yüzünden çok zor duruma düşmüştü; 1826'daki Vak'a-yi Hayriyye'den sonra yeni kurulan, tecrübesiz Osmanlı ordusunu yenip Osmanlı mülkünün yarısına hâkim olan Kavalalı kuvvetleri, Avrupalı emperyalistler durdurmasa idi, İstanbul'u da alabileceklerdi. Ya Devleti yöneten hânedân değişecek yahut Devlet arazisi ikiye bölünecekti. Avrupa kamuoyunu kazanmak gerektiğini Mahmûd Celâleddin Paşa Mir'ât-ı Hakikat adlı kitabında belirtir. Böylece, Tanzimat, en olumsuz şartlar da -Avrupalıları memnun edecek şekilde- bir emr-i vâki olarak ilân edildi.

Welcome to another episode of the podcast! In today's special episode, we are happy to welcome back a frequent collaborator Ramachandra⁠. Games Covered - IRE v IND: T20I series. - UAE v NZ: T20I series. - AFG v PAK: ODI series. Other News - Luus steps down as SA women's LOI captain. Wolvaardt named interim captain. - Rahul, Iyer, Bumrah, Shami in IND's Asia cup squad. No Chahal. - No Ebadot for BAN at Asia cup, uncapped Tanzim and Tanzid included. - SA women to get same match fees as men. - PCB chairman Ashraf's tenure to be cut short? ______________________________________________________________________________ Listen to us and get in touch: On ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ On ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ On ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Google podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ On ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pocket Casts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ On ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Breaker⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ On ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠RadioPublic⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Via ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Via ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Via ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠E-mail⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Please do subscribe to our podcast and let us know what you think in the comments section of the podcasting app, via mail or on social media. Leave us a 5-star rating on any platform or app (like apple podcasts) you use to listen to us. Thanks! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Good and Evil, Thoughts, Psychology, Self-Knowledge, Spirituality, Experience, Truth, Ideals, Seerah We explore all these topics in this solo episode. Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: info@boysinthecave.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes! Check out our website – boysinthecave.com Follow us on: Facebook –https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/ Instagram – @boysinthecave Twitter – @boysinthecave Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave ——————————————————————————————————–

Political Realities of Islam, Emotional Intelligence, Revolutions, Shah Waliullah Dehlawi, Radical Politics, Ibn Abdul Wahab, Theosophical Society, Gandhi We explore all these topics with the BITC Team. Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: info@boysinthecave.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes! Check out our website – boysinthecave.com Follow us on: Facebook –https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/ Instagram – @boysinthecave Twitter – @boysinthecave Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave ——————————————————————————————————–

Banu Qurayza, Tribalism, Islamophobia, Seerah, Spiritual Perfection, Prophetic Character, Nuclear Family, Masculinity   We explore all this with our hosts Tanzim & Rafael.   Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: boysinthecave@gmail.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave   Twitter - @boysinthecave   Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

Good & Evil, Morality, Reality, Rationality, Behaviours, Nature, Reason, Allah's Justice, The Four Temperaments, Alliances, Racism, Seerah   We explore all of this with our hosts Tanzim & Rafael.   Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: boysinthecave@gmail.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave   Twitter - @boysinthecave   Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

Spirituality, Experiences, The Four Temperaments, Dawah, Cultural Islam, Seerah, Traditional Islam, Muslim Converts   We explore all of this with our hosts Tanzim, Rafael & Josh.   Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: boysinthecave@gmail.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave   Twitter - @boysinthecave   Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

Liberalism, Feminism, Behaviours, Activism, Firasa, Archetypes, Beauty, The Four Humours, The Metaphysical    Tanzim and Rafael sit down and discuss these wide array of topics.   Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: boysinthecave@gmail.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave   Twitter - @boysinthecave   Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ekonomik iflas derinleştikçe AKP ve Erdoğan suçu farklı adreslere atmaya çalışıyor. Geçen sene soğan depolarını basan AKP iktidarı bu sene hedefinde marketler zinciri var. Aya sert iniş yapmayı planlaran AKP aynı zamanda mahalle bakkalı işine de giriyor.

Ruşen Çakır yorumluyor: Erdoğan yeni bir tanzim satış mağazaları fiyaskosunun eşiğinde

Raffaella Del Sarto of Johns Hopkins SAIS Europe talks about her latest book, Borderlands: Europe and the Mediterranean Middle East, with Marc Lynch on this week's podcast. The book proposes a profound rethink of the complex relationship between Europe-defined here as the European Union and its members-and the states of the Mediterranean Middle East and North Africa (MENA), Europe's 'southern neighbours'. (Starts at 0:49). Lucia Ardovini of Swedish Institute of International Affairs speaks about her latest article, "Re-Thinking the Tanzim: Tensions between Individual Identities and Organizational Structures in the Muslim Brotherhood after 2013," published in the Middle East Law and Governance Journal. (Starts at 29:01). Toby Dodge of The London School of Economics discusses the upcoming Iraqi elections.  (Starts at 44:36). Music for this season's podcast was created by Bashir Saade (playing Ney) and Farah Kaddour (on Buzuq). You can find more of Bashir's work on his YouTube Channel.

In this impromptu laidback episode, we discuss colonisation, traditionalism, activism, politics and much more. Check out our website – boysinthecave.com Follow us on: Facebook –https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/ Instagram – @boysinthecave Twitter – @boysinthecave Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

Misogyny, The Four Temperaments, Privilege, Simping, Patriarchy, Critical Race Theory, Social Media, Islamic Ideas Rafael & Tanzim speak their mind in this laidback internal episode. Let us know if you like this style of internal episodes. Message your thoughts on our social media. Check out our website – boysinthecave.com Follow us on: Facebook –https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/ Instagram – @boysinthecave Twitter – @boysinthecave Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

Congratulations everyone on completing exams! This week, we talk with two undergradute students who are joining us from out of provence to talk about their experiences during this past year of online school. Gault Bruch is a 3rd year Nanoscience Major at the Universtiy of Guelph who is doing his co-op at the University of Saskatchewan, and Tanzim Mayaz completed his 1st year in Physics representing the University of Guelph from Bangladesh.

Kronos Haber'de günün öne çıkan başlıkları...

Dünya Tarihinde Bugün Yaşananlar1785 Manş Denizi İlk Kez Balonla GeçildiFransız havacı Jean Pierre Blanchard ile ABD'li fizikçi John Jeffries, 7 Ocak 1785'te bir balonla ilk kez Manş Denizi'ni geçtiler. 1887 - Thomas Stevens, dünya çapında bisiklet turu tamamlayan ilk kişi oldu. 1953 Amerika Birleşik Devletleri başkanı Harry Truman, ülkesinin hidrojen bombası geliştirdiğini açıkladı.İlk hidrojen bombası 1954 yılında Büyük Okyanus'taki Marshall Adaları'na atılarak ABD tarafından denenmiştir. Atılan bomba Hiroşima ve Nagazaki'ye atılan atom bombalarının tam 1000 katı gücündedir. 1990 - Pisa Kulesi, 800 yıllık tarihi boyunca ilk kez güvenlik gerekçesiyle ziyaretlere kapatıldı. 1927 - Okyanus aşırı ilk telefon görüşmesi New York'dan Londra'ya yapıldı.Türkiye Tarihinde Bugün Yaşananlar1633 İlk Kez Bir Şeyhülislam İdam Edildi IV. Murat Osmanlı Devletinde hiç kimsenin dokunulmaz olmadığını göstermek istiyor ve ilmiye sınıfına da devlet otoritesini tanıtmak istiyordu. Zamanın şeyhülislamı Ahizade Hüseyin Efendi 7 Ocak 1633'te idam edildi. 1946 Demokrat Parti Kuruldu Cumhuriyet halk Partisinden ayrılan Celal Bayar, Adnan Menderes, Tevfik Koraltan ve Fuat Köprülü tarafından 7 Ocak 1946'da demokrat Parti kuruldu. Seksen dört maddelik programının esasını liberalizm ve demokrasi oluşturuyordu. Türk siyasi tarihinde önemli bir yer edinen Demokrat Parti 27 Mayıs 1960 İhtilaline kadar varlığını başarı ile korumuştur. 1957 - Millî Türk Talebe Birliği "rock and roll" ve "striptiz"in yasaklanmasını istedi. 1967 Sağlık Bakanlığı bir açıklama yaptı: Türkiye'de 25.000 frengili, 10.000 cüzamlı, 750.000 veremli var. BUGÜN DOĞANLAR 1800 - ABD`nin 13. başkanı Millard Fillmore doğdu. 1851 - Rusya'da halkçı hareketin ilk liderlerinden Nikolai Tchaikovsky doğdu. 1901 - Türk yazar Fikret Adil dünyaya geldi. BUGÜN ÖLENLER 1858 - Osmanlı Devleti'nde Tanzimât'ın mimarı, Sadrazam Mustafa Reşit Paşa hayatını kaybetti. 1943 Sırp kökenli Amerikalı mucit, elektrik mühendisi Nikola Tesla vefat etti. Günümüzde alternatif akım elektrik kaynağı sistemine verdiği katkılarla tanınmaktadır. 1989 - Japon İmparatoru Hirohito dünyaya veda etti. 2012 Arabesk müzik sanatçısı Azer Bülbül, öldü. Bugünkü bültenimizi burada sonlandırıyoruz. Program boyunca yakın dönemde gerçekleşen önemli gelişmeleri ele aldık. Yarın tarihte neler olduğunu merak ediyor musunuz? O zaman bizi dinlemeyi unutmayın!Bizi dinlediğiniz için teşekkür ederiz, yarın görüşmek üzere

Rumeli'nin fethinden sonra, oralarda yerleşmek üzere Anadolu'nun Müslüman-Türk halkından âileleri ile birlikte gidenlere verilen ad. Osmanlıların Balkan Yarımadası'ndaki fetihleri netîcesinde orada yerleşmeleriyle, buradaki Yörük cemâati gruplarının sayıları artmış ve çok ehemmiyet kazanmıştı. Rumeli'nin iskânı ve Türkleştirilip, İslâm dîninin yayılması maksadıyla Yörük ve Tatar Türkleri'nin bu bölgeye ilk defâ ayak basmaları Sultan Yıldırım Bâyezîd zamânında oldu. Fetihlerden sonra Rumeli'de yerleşen Yörük teşkilâtı zamanla dağılmaya yüz tuttu. Dağınıklık ve disiplinsizlik İkinci Viyana kuşatmasında iyice kendini gösterdi. Böylece halkın daha sıkı bir disiplin altına alınmasının gerekli olduğu ortaya çıktı. 1691 senesinde Sultân'ın Hatt-ı Hümâyûnu ile Yörük Türkleri Evlâd-ı Fâtihân adı altında ve Rumeli'nin sağ, sol ve orta kolunda olmak üzere yeniden yazıldı ve zamânın ihtiyâçlarına göre teşkilâtın askerî ve iktisâdî bünyesi az çok değiştirildi. Kânunnâme'de; “Yörük tâifesi öteden beri Devlet-i Âliyye'nin güzîde ve cengâver, itâatli, ferman dinleyen askerlerinden olup, eski seferlerde küffâr ile yapılan harplerde kendilerinden iyice yararlık ve yüz aklıkları görüldüğünden, bu tâifeye Evlâd-ı Fâtihân adı verilmiştir.” denilmektedir. Altı sene sonra nüfus sayımı yapılarak her altı kişiden birinin seferber asker olması ve bu şekilde her türlü vergiden muâf tutulacakları ve harplere iştirâkleri kayda bağlanmıştı. Evlâd-ı Fâtihân'ı çeribaşılar (Yörük teşkîlâtında serasker) idâre etmekteydi. Çeribaşları; kazâ müdürü durumunda olup, vazifeli bulundukları yerlerin âsâyişine bakarlar, sefer ânında eşkinci askerler çıkarırlar. Harp olmadığı zamanlarda vergileri toplarlardı. Sonraları Osmanlı Devleti'nin çeşitli yerlerinde vazîfe alan bu teşkilât, kurulduğu ilk yıllarda sâdece Rumeli'deki gazâlara katılmak mecburiyetindeydi. Tanzimâttan sonra çıkarılan kânunla yaklaşık iki asırdan beri devâm eden Evlâd-ı Fâtihân teşkilâtı ortadan kaldırılmış oldu. (Rehber Ansiklopedisi, 5.c., 247.s.)

Tanzim Uddin is one of the co-founders of Togbog - a media company focused on broadcasting positive Bangladeshi stories to the world. What’s most impressive about Tanzim is that he’s made a few hundred videos - easily over the last year and has garnered millions of views for Togbog and has created a community out of it. Now just saying that by itself sells his skills short because he does a lot more in the background - like leading the team and planning sales strategies and so on. He is also a student in his final year of Computer Science and Engineering in North South University in Bangladesh.This episode of the podcast is a little bit different. This was less of an interview and more of an indepth discussion between the two of us about social media, video marketing, YouTube and career goals and a lot more. And to be honest this is how I had envisioned the podcast to be - less of the interview and more of the conversation. Find out more about the episode here: www.tawsifakkas.com/011

In this NOT-TO-MISS episode with Tanzim Alam - Cofounder of the #1 Australian Muslim Podcast "Boys In The Cave" we talk about: -How to get started in podcasting and what you need -The benefits podcasting brings to your business -How to market and grow your podcast and your audience -The vision and mindset behind creating and running a successful podcast -How to manage a podcast as a leader/host ...and so much more! - Join the Facebook group to attend our episodes LIVE: https://www.ummahpreneur.com/group

Sosyal Hukuk (41) 19 Şubat 2019 Konuklar: Nazır Kapusuz ve Ali Bülent Erdem Konu: Gıda krizinde popülizm ve tanzim satış

İslâm, Hayatı Tanzim Eder by Mecmerkezi

Tanzim is a former Electrical Engineer turned Software Developer who began his international journey as a digital nomad embarking across Asia. We discuss Germany's Youth Mobility Visa and Berlin's start-up culture. We also elaborate on the perks of minimalism, solo travel and strategic budgeting! You can find him on Instagram @tanzim_m !   | Website: https://www.theexpatexperience.org/ | Facebook: The Expat Experience | 

In this episode of the Sportageous Podcast, we chat with Tanzim Alam of Knightwatchmen Sports and the Boys in the Cave Podcast about a range of things cricket; cricket in Australia, Bangladesh Cricket (both domestic and international), domestic Bangladeshi-Australian cricketers, Shakib Al Hasan and his ban, and spirituality and sports, amongst several other things! Don't miss this episode if you like anything cricket, and in particular, Bangladesh cricket.

The Science of the Four Temperaments, The Spiritual & The Material, Knowing your Self, Psychology, the True Reality, Adherence to the Sunnah, Relationships, Personal Experiences.   We discuss all this in-depth with Mohammed Isaaq.   Mohammed Isaaq is a student of knowledge, and has studied the science of the temperaments alongside his traditional studies. He has been teaching Arabic studies, Theology, and is heavily involved in community projects such as the OpenCircle youth initiative and Ghazali Children's Project.   Hosts : Tanzim & Malik   Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: info@boysinthecave.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Check out our website - boysinthecave.com   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave   Twitter - @boysinthecave   Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave   Check out Mizan Avenue! https://www.facebook.com/mizanavenue/ https://www.instagram.com/mizan_avenue/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mohammed Isaaq's Visibility https://www.mohammedisaaq.com/ https://www.facebook.com/isaaq.mohammed https://www.instagram.com/isaaq.mohammed/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shownotes Tanzim:                              00:00:01 Assalamu Alaykum Welcome back to another of boys in the cave. My name is Tanzim your cohost for today and I'm also joined by a special cohost. Many of you may know him in Sydney, Malik. Um, he's the founder of Mizan Avenue in Sydney. MashAllah has a lot of stories to share, so I'm really excited for this and Alhamdullilah he also does amazing work in the community. And I'll put the links to Mizan Avenue in our show notes in shaa Allah, everyone around the world can inshallah check it out and alhamdullilah We're joined by someone very special today. Our special guests is Isaaq Muhammad. He's a secondary school mathematics teacher by profession, student of knowledge and has studied the science of the temperament alongside his traditional studies. He has been teaching Arabic Studies, theology and he's heavily involved in community projects such as the open circle youth initiative and Ghazali children's projects so Assalamu alaykum Isaaq and umm Malik and welcome to boys in the cave (Walaykum Assalam). Um, I know you touched down not too long ago in Sydney. Uh, and he did a workshop actually with the four temperaments and that was sold out aye Malik, Malik:                                 00:01:26 yea subhanAllah It's sold out. The first one sold out in less than 48 hours. And then we open up another session the following day and that also sold out. Um, it was an incredible, incredible workshop, but I'll let them hammer talk about that. Tanzim:                              00:01:38 Yes, I have. How'd you find, well, how was the experience with that? Just come to Sydney and teaching the courses? Isaaq:                                  00:01:43 Yeah, it was, um, it was nice. Uh, they actually asked me yesterday, um, you know, how was this different to the other ones? And I think, um, you know, I, I thought about it quite a bit and I think, uh, I just felt like the, the crowd, the audience, uh, the seekers, the students already, I felt like they were ready and that that 48 hours, the fact that the tickets were sold out in 40 hours for the first program just shows and reflect the intentions of the people. Because when they saw that it wasn't really based off of actually having studied the four temperaments or having sat in a class with me or something. But it was them reading the title, knowing yourself and they had a plea when they signed up to a law saying I would like to know myself. And it's also the intentions. It's always in the intentions. They can anything in any person, in any thing for anything to be off something. It's in the intentions when the intentions are there, the act has a weight to it. When the intentions aren't there. Then you miss out on on really taking anything from the act, Tanzim:                              00:02:46 Mashallah and with, because you open up the washer on Saturday, I think you did the Sunday one because he got sold out. It seems like people around the world, cause you've traveled around the world going to different cities. People are really yearning for this sort of stuff. Yeah. And what's your experience been about that in particular at this point in time? Isaaq:                                  00:03:03 Well you think that, you know, after having taught the same class 20 times in over like seven countries, that it would get boring or it would get repetitive or in some way it would be come a bit mundane and that energy wouldn't be there. And he witnessed the two classes on the weekend and he also witnessed how different both classes were. Because when it's knowing yourself, then it's your responses as someone who's in the class you, it's your journey. The teachers, there is only there to facilitate, but it's your journey and whatever. And however you respond on whatever steps you take and how strong your steps are, how from your sub site and your responses and your engagement in the workshop. It's not that it's for six hours or for four hours. I mean, people who study full time would have a difficult time to see in one class for six hours straight. Isaaq:                                  00:03:49 But when it's a workshop, uh, there's far more engagement and in that's why each of them have been very different. Every single second. Not one session has been the same for me in, in all these different places. And that's why, uh, you know, it's, it's uh Alhamdullilah, you know, the response of people is the success of, and I always share it with people like the role responses. Um, and it's amazing. It's on it, it's a pleasure to just have like facilitated it by whatever degree, but it's them just getting closer to themselves and the so much in that Tanzim:                              00:04:19 and molecule actually in the classes. How was your experience in general and just for the audience, can you clarify what is hoc kind of cities huck a specializes in? Malik:                                 00:04:28 I'll get him to clarify that, but what I'll talk about is pretty much the, yeah, for my experience. I think the program, and I was speaking to Isaaq about this yesterday, that you know, a lot of times where we do classes, um, you know, a lot of the teachers are pretty much articulating what our tradition says and sometimes it can get very theoretical. But what I found with this program was that it was very practical and he forced people to really, uh, to think about their relationship with themselves first and then their relationship with the last panel town. And in that it was very confronting for, even for myself. And I've sat through these, uh, previously as well, and I've known him for quite some time and he's explained, um, you know, the four temperaments and the science, uh, to me, but Sydney for the program, it is quite confining and you're starting to pick up on things that you knew about yourself, but it was like you're doing like subconsciously, uh, and then you starting to realize, you know, this is my temperament, these are my weaknesses. And being really real with yourself with what your weaknesses are. And then starting starting to think about, you know, how can I motivate those weaknesses? Um, and how can I, you know, just be real with myself. Um, so I think for a lot of people that was confronting, but there was a lot of beauty in that because it's now I have to be real with myself so I can get closer to my Lord. Uh, so I think that was incredible. Isaaq:                                  00:05:59 Um, but yeah, I think Muhammad, uh, for those who don't know about the science of four temperaments, uh, could you explain that? Yeah. Um, so the science itself is, uh, is one that goes back around two and a half thousand years, uh, all the way to the group, all the, all the way to the Greeks actually. Um, and it was originally, uh, looked at from a physician's perspective, uh, how do we deal with the human beings condition physiologically. So there's illnesses that start to come about, um, uh, there's illnesses and how can we treat those illnesses. So it's foundations were in traditional medicine. Um, but as it continued, there was also other theories that were coming about, such as Plato in, in, in his republic, he speaks about four chief virtues. Um, so there was separate discoveries sort of taking place, um, in different theories and studies of the human being of the human condition and all these different, uh, from these different perspectives. Isaaq:                                  00:06:51 But as time went on, the, you know, scientists of these, of these, uh, sciences started to make connections. And especially when been seen, our came under, the Muslims came across the science because the science was in line with the [inaudible]. So this was [inaudible], you know, the, the Greek medicine. But it was in line with prophetic medicine. Um, but they also started to make these connections between these four temperaments, these four chief temperaments, uh, and, uh, the behavior of a human being. And it was in line with what the teachings of the prophets [inaudible] was. So you had the contributions by someone like even been seen. And then in mammoth has Ali, if you look at in the disciplining the soul, he's, he's actually referring to the four chief virtues and how they are, how they correlate to the human being, these four temperaments. So, you know, the science was vast. Isaaq:                                  00:07:39 And then you had many other scholars, uh, [inaudible] sooty many scholars who wrote a book on [inaudible] but also books in other sciences such as interfere books. Uh, these four temperaments are actually referenced. And there was a student who actually came to me and he said, he said, I'm so glad you're teaching this stuff. Uh, he said, because when I was studying to see, um, he said, I started looking at these terms and it's demo he and balcony. And he said, I hadn't had, I didn't have a clue what that means. Uh, he's a technically when I read the mov, Eh, the translation was like a bloody person them, right. And Belica me was a Flemmi person. What does that mean? The Flemmi temperament. So there's so [inaudible] and anyone who wrote it of seed was a polymath. So they had studied the sciences. That's why they were referencing the sciences. Isaaq:                                  00:08:28 And if you do study tough series, you have to be qualified to have studied all these other sciences to truly understand what that [inaudible] is saying. But anyway, and so, so that's its role in our tradition. And it was continued all the way to two. When modern medicine came, it was sort of rejected only because certain things weren't, um, weren't seen by, by scientists who, you know, it's empiricism, it's, uh, what can we see a and see because they couldn't see certain of the four fluids and they rejected it. However, in psychology it's pretty much there. Um, but the science itself, to put it simply, it's essentially is essentially saying that all human beings have these four fluids within them. And one of them is a dominant one is a sub dominant, and then the other two are there. So in each of us we have this and this combination results in, in who you are. Isaaq:                                  00:09:12 This is your nature as opposed to your as a, as a p as opposed to your nurture. So are nurturing could be different, but your natures are the same. And if you work out your temperament and you can work out, for example, if you two here had the same nature though, you would think you're also different via your nurturing. You would say for example, son tonight I want to go to the cinema. And he would say, I want to go to the theater. That's because of your nurturing. You're probably used to cinemas and he's used to the theater. Um, but if you look at your nature, your nature might be sanguine for example, that likes entertainment. And so we can find out that where you guys meet. And that's the beauty of the science is all about universals. It's not about the particulars that we experienced as human beings. Isaaq:                                  00:09:51 It's the universals. And once you get into the universals and anyone has experienced universals, it's one of the most powerful tools you can ever get. The Koran hadith all university speaking, uh, Rumi's poetry, universal. Most poetry spoke poetry universals. That's why they, they appeal to different human beings of different backgrounds, right? Because it's speaking to me at a universal level and that's what this, it gives you the tools. It gave me the tools that I never had any intention to actually put this workshop together. Originally, I just used the science where I studied it and I wanted to just, um, eh, I just used it upon myself for a number of years. I'd say about three years. I just used it on myself. And when I came back, uh, one of my sisters actually, she wasn't really convinced in the science because she wasn't settled in. She was, she's at a particular temperament now. Isaaq:                                  00:10:42 It makes sense to me why she wasn't convinced. And eventually after looking at her through this lens, I realized she's a melancholic. So she needs the detailed explanations upon a lot. So I put the detailed explanation together for her. And I invited the friends and family and they all came and they loved it because everyone finds themselves. And when I show it show, it comes to this, he said, he goes, ah, do you know why the Beatles are so successful? Because each of them with a full clear archetypes of the four temperaments. So Parnell, and so when, when people saw them, they saw a complete group first and foremost. And secondly, everyone could appeal to them. And, and this isn't just exclusive to that. I mean, in the Catholic tradition, they was sitting temperaments six months before people would get married, just so they can understand the enough's their universal, that they're the part of themselves that just doesn't really entirely change. Isaaq:                                  00:11:34 Uh, and so it's, it's crucial. This is the science and, um, you know, many, uh, you know, Shit. Yeah. Here I was saying that it's, it's, uh, it's a, of a, it's, it's extremely important for parents to know the temperaments of their children so they can look after them properly as well. You know, and if you have two different temperament in the same household who have the same nurture, they have two different, very, two different experiences in the same household. And you ever come across that two siblings in the same household, same nurturing, the two very different experiences. One of the, one of them says, ah, they just didn't get me. They just don't get me. And the other one stays [inaudible] right? [inaudible] and then the other one says, uh, why are you weird? Why don't you just accept things that look as perfect mom and dad did a, you know, it's a friend did a good job, but it works. Isaaq:                                  00:12:22 But it works for your temperament. It doesn't work for the other one's temperament. And we've spoken about the same temperaments on a macro level, on a, uh, on a political, geopolitical level. Looking at this, it's just that the scope of it is so vast. Seoul vast, uh, you can look at understanding political positions by or temperaments. You can look at people reacting to uh, global, uh, or at least, uh, you know, certain events within their communities and that their responses are actually temperament based and to [inaudible] on a macro level and on a micro level, on a, a within a household. How do people respond within the household and then how do you respond with yourself? And that's what we do at the knowing of program is to sit with yourself first and foremost. You know, mostly people do these personality and I've going on quite a bit, but people do these personality tests. Isaaq:                                  00:13:14 People say to me, why don't you put a questionnaire in the workshop? I say, because mostly when people do question is just lying to themselves. It's just what they want. And I always say to people, when we did ask those questions in the work, I asked these universal based questions after they've done a lot of reflecting and ask these questions and people write the answers down and then I say, okay, now imagine if your sibling was next to you or your close friend was next to you. What would they say about your answers? And then you see people laughing cause it's very different because you're diluted. Unfortunately we are all very have some form of delusion with ourselves. We, yeah, that's why there's such a dissonance in our communities. Even when myself and there's this, there's this dissonance that starts to happen and unless we faced that, these uncomfortable emotions that we sit with absolutely sit with it first and foremost, people are sick. That's why they just mask it away. And this run off to something else Tanzim:                              00:14:03             I bought two points to bring up. One would be just to, cause I do want to go deep into like the temperaments itself. So people, um, whoever listening to this can kind of gate get an idea of who they are as well. But just a critique of 'em the four temperaments. Some people may say, oh I'm saying this, I don't know if other people say this but you know, for example, cause I come from business economics background as well. So for example, when you people, when they see certain situations occur in the world, they take a economical lens. So they're like, okay, I'm going to read this through economics. And get an understanding of what's happening. So I can not predict what will happen in the future. This and that. Would you say that some people may say that you have the four him human temperaments, but you're reading people but you're reading through a lens of seeing it as the forehead human temperaments, but you can critique that Lendl like what would your response, Isaaq:                                  00:14:53 yeah, so, so there's always that case of um, know maybe you're looking at it from this perspective and if we would state that perspective out of it, then we can still look at the human being via other lenses. Uh, the difference. And, and that's true. Like of course you can, you can ignore the temperament and you can just look at things from a different lens that, that the difference days is that that's all particular base. So you studied a particular science, you will see the world based on your particulars. So if you study business, you will always see things by our business lens naturally or whatever else you've euro by in your life. The difference here is, is once you start to factor in the temperaments in your perspective. So even looking at it from a business perspective, what I'll say to you is, is the four temperaments, there's, so even within your class, for example, in a business studies class or there's four different types of, uh, of, of ways of looking at it from a business perspective and these four, this, this way of looking at it, why are these four our constants? Isaaq:                                  00:15:45 So for example, when I was putting this project together, I, if I, I thought this signs was like a lost science. And advertising companies till today are using the same science to identify, identify four different types of, uh, of, uh, of consumers. Uh, there's many different, um, there's the disc analysis. I don't know if you've ever heard of the disc analysis. It's based on the four temperaments. There's the behavioral theory via these colors for, based on these four, Myers-Briggs 16. Right? It's a combination of the four temperament. So, you know, if someone doesn't need it, doesn't want to look at it via that Lens, that's fine. You don't have to. But what I would say to them is this, but give it a go and it'll never be the same guarantee. It'll never be the same because you'll start to see an important part of the human being. Isaaq:                                  00:16:29 We aren't just our particulars. In fact, there's other parts of ourselves we're not looked at. Normally. When I, I introduced the science, I sort of draw a square on the, on the board and I say, what shape is this? And people say it's a square and I just draw it from changing his perspective perspective at night and I draw the rest of the basically is a cube. And I say just by changing it we've realized it's a completely different shape to what we thought by changing our perspective. And this is the, the key. So that business person who says, oh, but I'm looking at it from this lens and you're looking at it from that lens difference between me and you is as I'm saying, I'm looking at it from both. And if I know more, I look at it via other lenses and that's the best, the beauty of a liberated mind is able to be to consider all these different perspectives when dealing with a human being. That's called holistic, a holistic approach. Tanzim:                              00:17:13 I've got a, um, point to add in here cause um, I've set this in like every podcast is a, um, book, um, code, um, something, something success to achieve six off what the title of the book. But it gives you, you would have been familiar with this picture of this woman that's like a beautiful looking woman and it is another, but in the book it says people, most people see it as a beautiful woman, but there's another perspective and they, in the book it tells you you don't flip to the next page until you see the other perspective. And I'm like, I can't, I can't see it in any other way. And then I think another page actually tells you it's like an old woman. So I'm like, the hell, how's this? How's this gonna work? So I've been looking, I lose looking at for like 20 minutes. I'm like, I can now see it now. Actually see, cause the way the pictures made, B can be looked at birth at a as a beautiful woman or very old and depressing looking woman. So I'm like, it's kind of links. Yeah. Isaaq:                                  00:18:04 Isn't it interesting that once you, so you spend those 20 minutes about once you see her, Tanzim:                              00:18:09 you can never unsee. Yeah. That's the beauty of training the mind. Isaaq:                                  00:18:13 Once you see, you can never unsee. And one of the reasons why this for temperament works in people come in as critical and skeptical. And I always say give it a chance because I'm yet to see someone who's by the end completely rejected. The only reason why you accept it. And even myself, the first time I did it, I thought I wasn't too sure about it. Still at the end of it I said, I'm not sure. But the reason why it works is because you've already experienced the four temperaments. You experienced them in nature, the four seasons. You experienced them via the four elements. In fact, you know, when I first used to do the workshop, I would describe the four temperaments to people themselves. So I would speak about the four temperaments, uh, and it's, you know, the strengths and weaknesses and so on. But more recently I've changed that approach where actually, uh, I oppose it. There's an activity that we do where I ask everyone to describe one of the elements. I see. Describe fire as a person, Tanzim:                              00:19:08 like angry, aggressive, and people keep going. And it's amazing because you keep going. I'm really short tempered, um, destructive. Um, not beautiful. Um, one blanking. Sorry. Thanks. A podcast. Maybe that's, sorry. Yeah, no, but just look at those four that you mentioned. Yeah. Isaaq:                                  00:19:30 The start over the four of the five or six that you mentioned. Um, all of those can and, and the more you do it and the more you go through it, so it's not very transparent, it's straightforward and very powerful. Um, has a presence. These eventually, as you start to look at this archetype of a personality fits many people that we know. Tanzim:                              00:19:49 Yeah, no lie. Yeah. Your name jumps into my mind. And isn't that amazing? You only did six of them. Imagine in a classroom Isaaq:                                  00:19:55 people, and we don't just stick with the one. I mean I sat with the one answer that you gave, but he's been there. Whenever anyone says anything, I say, what do you mean? And then they describe it. So when someone says, Oh, fire is harmful, for example, what do you mean? Oh, if I get too close to it or even if I'm far away, I'm feeding it. There's people out there that when they come into the room, we just know of their presence, even if they are on the opposite side of the room, even if they're not in my conversation over here, but they're over there, whereas there's the water type. Right. Uh, and, and, and if I were to describe water, how would you describe water? Tanzim:                              00:20:26 Um, calm, chilled, um, introverted but bit more intelligent in the sense that I can kind of transition into like conversations without creating too much of a fuss. Just see. What do you think he's, what do you think you could work at? You can work out what he is by. The answers that he gave are really fire. How useful fire Isaaq:                                  00:20:48 was from the perspective of war. So you put your po for water, you spoke far more positively Malik:                                 00:20:55 then you did for fire. I think it's the same Ryan a right? Yeah. And you spoke about speaking, you almost escaping yourself. Yeah. Isaaq:                                  00:21:03 And I've only just met you father and you could, I mean I asked you that question that what you just said about water that the character sees that you gave. Not entirely. I'm not saying that we, some of you all are you into these things that you mentioned, but this is describing another type of a person that we know. What's also interesting is what a person would look at fire as sometimes harmful. Whereas if asked to fire people, they would say fire's useful. It's true. They are from the perspective of fire. Yeah. Now I've just given you like like two, like, like 1% of it. Imagine we sit and we discuss some people, people with listening, thinking, oh that's a bit too simple. Honestly, it is kind of simple. So we have this constant conversation. Are we all entirely unique? And is it case by case with all human beings or is it one size fits all? And what this science is providing us is it's not one size fits all. No, is it, we're all entirely unique. We're somewhat predictable from some perspective. Mashallah, Malik:                                 00:22:01 the summit. So many questions, comment on why. Yeah, that's what I always happens. I think we were talking about it during our car rides. Um, and you were talking about just sitting with yourself and I think that's something that this program forces you to do, just to sit with yourself and with your thought and pretty much a nurturing everything that you bring to the table. All right. Um, I mean, one of the first experience, first experience of just sitting with myself properly, I think we'll together in Turkey and we shared more tile and we did this exercise of just one October, which is to find stillness. And we just sat there for how long would you say? About an hour roughly. And just on a stepfather and just sitting there with our thoughts. And it's also very confronting. Right. But you said something incredible in your linkedin with the had youth of Jupiter aide. Uh, I wanted you to explain that. Isaaq:                                  00:22:55 Yeah. So in Hudis Braille, um, we see the first thing that happens in all of this hadith is this man enters. So you familiar with how these degrade yet as he enters, uh, and the way he is the [inaudible] as we know, uh, when he see he sits with the profits a lot of of, but if we, if we look at the description of how he sat with the profits or like us on them, how was it, how was he described as sitting with a private seller SLO? Very close to him. Yeah. The description was his knees. His hands were upon the, other than he was knee to knee. So have you ever sat with a human being knee to knee? No. That'd be a bit weird. I thought. Right? Isn't that interesting? That in today's time we don't do that? Yeah. Imagine if someone was that close. Isaaq:                                  00:23:38 Let me see if I can move this a little bit closer to you right now. How did it feel the moment I just came a little bit closer. You actually use just voided eye contact in just a moment as you follow up a little bit exposed. This is no, that's what we were being taught that in the classroom. That's your approach with a teacher. You have to be pretty much present that close and you don't have to physically be that close. But your attention, what you bring to that, that interaction is, is sitting with this presence. But my question is is that if that's all we're told to be, to have a real conversation, to have a real intimate conversation where, and you know, unfortunately this one world intimacy is lost. That's why the definition of intimacy is a joke. Tanzim:                              00:24:20 Yeah. To bounce a few. Um, I know that because in nowadays like, cause I like reading about like orientalism and stuff. So how the British came to India, they came as a white man with a suit and all that. So they came in and tried to implant meant the education system. Right. And so their version of the education system or how you have to be educators that have classrooms, have the teacher at the front of the board and we've kind of a doctor in this day and age as well. But then what they didn't realize is that you can actually gain experiential knowledge through, you know, Susie Sufism will prevail in the India Day with like many Sufi orders and stuff as well. But they were blind to see that, you know, they thought their way was the only way to gain, you know, knowledge is to, you know, one teacher at the front of the board for board and you have the whole class. But what you've described is actually, you know, if you look at, um, Islamic history, I think, um, [inaudible] don't have like a circle and people really close. That's how we learn. Isaaq:                                  00:25:16 Isn't that interesting? That that's how we learned with other human beings. What about ourselves? Have we ever sat with ourselves in that manner? Have we ever been that close with ourselves? This is what Malik was, was getting at. That what you're forced to do in those moments of sitting with yourself is your exposed to yourself. You know, if you just say quiet for a moment and you just reflect, why is it people are so an easy in those and they, oh, they can't do it half the time. And we'd be do at the start of the session is because all this stuff's asked to come to surface and I don't want to deal with it, sire. I'd rather just talk about something else, right? But what you're supposed to do, sit with that for a while. Start to compartmentalize it, and you can start to make sense of yourself even in that situation. Isaaq:                                  00:25:59 It's interesting that you went to, and no doubt that was the case and what the British and the influence that that happened during that period. But right here, right now, what can we do about it, right? What we can do about it and what I can do about it. And this is all about empowering the south. This was why it's called knowing yourself, not knowing others because you can known or know others. You can observe them. But we want to try to observe, observe ourselves for a while because the power, most of it lies within ourselves. In fact, this was called m a R K and mom cause Ali called his book the Alchemy of happiness, which is essentially by yourself. You are the base methods and how via your own process, by and by knowledge of yourself, you can transform yourself into gold. So it's all within within the staff and that's why I lost [inaudible] la. Come on full circle. Isaaq:                                  00:26:50 Very or you believe you know literary trasy La come officer come there, you know you'll yourself is upon you and in a, in a slightly looser translation is take care of yourselves. Another, the chronic loss aes, one out of [inaudible] and a [inaudible] for unsal, hormone facade, Hula would fire support. Whenever we hear versatile Koran on two things to do, isn't it? Look out for the nouns and look out for the verbs. Nan's indicate to you, do you want to be a part of that group or not? So if you want, if you don't want to be a part of that group, then avoid their verbs. And if you want to be a part of that group, then follow their verbs. And also you can find if you are from them. Cause if you're doing that verb then you know which group allows pointing you in right now in that current state. Isaaq:                                  00:27:28 So when you see will I go home on fast? So you here is the fast six, right? The transgressors the one who go above the above and beyond the boundaries. So what does he say? He says and he's also wanting, using well outer corner like don't be killed Lavina like those not so low. Forgot a and, and you know, it'd be interesting to ask people what would, what do you think would the B would be the response or what would the law say about those who forget a lot. And you would think that in a modern understanding it would probably be, you know, they would get punished or they will do some scene or something like that. What is the last day? Well at a conical Lithion and a salon for unsolved fuss, a home, you know, hit the response of a gang us, he made them forget themselves. Isaaq:                                  00:28:10 So the people that we know, we've met in our lives who are busy and preoccupied with everyone else but themselves are some of the most ugliest in character people to be around and irritating and causing discomfort. There's already a discomfort in idea. I know my own sins. Oh you add onto it like I'm, you know, and I, you know, I met this one student of knowledge once and I was so happy to see how much he'd been studying and I asked him also, what project are you working on? Cause I like to see that the guys who've been studying to be a bit creative and how can we take this to the next level? You know, that what we've learned and, and he said, I'm writing a reputation against an, and it was a pen as a predominant Scott or like a really famous scholar. Isaaq:                                  00:28:55 And I thought what a waste of it. Like [inaudible] do not have your own sins to be writing a reputation to your soft lane. I'll be that unaware of ourselves that that in my day with the sense that I have that I'm going to spend this day talking about what when I do that workshop I just get a free therapy session for myself cause I'm of one of the temperaments and I'm constantly reminded of like where I'm going wrong cause I'm going wrong, we're all going wrong and things. But this is the, this is the, the, it's very, very interesting. And then you link that with the other versus [inaudible] of the lot of salon where he sees man hustle Islam or murder Taco Humala yeah, from the beauty of a person's Islam, which is also interesting about elicited this, I mean hustle Islam and Hustle Islam. Like you know, you can just look at that statement or that phrase, sorry, mean hustle Islam from the beauty of a person. Isaaq:                                  00:29:49 Islam from a beautiful Islam. So the fact that he saying beautiful Islam, is there another part to Islam? Could there be an ugly Islam or the ugliness of an Islam? And he says, men Hustler Islam and mud of a person Turkle who to leave Marla I knee that which does not concern him that which has no Montana for him. No meaningful him. So you know all these people when they, when they focused on, sorry about that nod. So when people are focused on others, right, what type of Islam is that? But when you're focused on c from P, your purpose is to leave that which is a concern. You wha what he, what he or she is going through it. Realism has no meaningful me and that becomes a beautiful Islam now. And isn't it beautiful when we meet those people who are just, no. Someone says, how did you hear about so and so did was I got to do with me? And you just find a peace. The moment someone says that the unrest that was in your heart that caused you to speak cause that's how it works. Most people speak cause of an unrest going on and they speak Lydia Brown measures. I was a very interesting to think about that. But when that happens and someone just diffuses it, I as no mean Tanzim:                              00:30:53             I wanted to ask is, um, even from my perspective, I feel that I might be wrong. I'm like, you know, Russell are so some may have had what? Like we follow the HEDIS, we do our best. We can, um, to emulate his character. But wouldn't that mean that he has like one temperament and then we all have to become one Isaaq:                                  00:31:12 permitting eventually non or [inaudible]. The point really isn't to become one temperament. The point is to balance ourselves to be the appropriate, to display the appropriate temperament in whatever the situation requires me to be. Sometimes the situation requires me to be an inner energetic sandwich. Sometimes the situation requires to me be to be an intense melancholic, diminish time to study. There's no time to be a distracted sanguine yes, it's a time for me to be, uh, a focus, serious studying melancholic. When it's time for me to set up an organization or work with an organization, it's time for me to be cleric and to get up and go right. Or when an injustice is taking place for me to speak about it. It's time for me to be cleric. But when there's a lot of noise taking place and everyone's, everyone's getting their comments in, then it's time for me to be phlegmatic and just be a bit passive right now and be peaceful and avoid conflict. Isaaq:                                  00:32:05 So what the province has on display, he displayed perfectly each, he displayed the best response to any situation. That's what we need to work towards. And what you see in the foreclosure far is you see, you do see is very interesting, honestly is like the arrows example you just gave and you see that one and then you see them by the end of their lives and you see almost, you see this growth, which is quite difficult to understand sometimes because the melancholic temperament, that intense deep, sometimes almost timid to be able to in his later on in his to display such great. Uh Oh such great courage. Like Abu bakr RA who did not let, I want to say I speak about the negatives of any of them, but you know, our motto, the law at the start of it, he was, he's a clearly a collogue temperament and you see how he was as a person, as a cleric and how he, Eh, like in the Jahiliyyah Times, how many Arabs actually carried out those Jahiliyyah principles. Do you think all of them did that? No. Only those fiery cleric types we took on those principles and did that. But when Islam came, look what he did with the principles of Islam. Tanzim:                              00:33:15 Well, no, it's like, um, what you said about exercising the right temperament the right time. I know like O'Mara younger who we know through the Sierra very, you know, out there, um, at times portrayed as angry, um, he just wants to like kill someone that did something wrong. But then when he becomes Kaylee, like you'd be crying on the minbar run alone, Isaaq:                                  00:33:34 almost displaying the, displaying the complete opposite of his, her temperament. You know why that was? Because they had the best soft development going on under the best temp, under the best mentor ever. Tanzim:                              00:33:44 And even Apple Walker or the on who act, people seem as soft easily to push around. And I know that, you know, the was, he became like more fierce and stern and had to like deal with that situation as well. And even on a, I'm Omar Radovan who like, I think what people have said, I think even during the time of [inaudible] with his family, he said that if, um, his daughters came up to him, he would just be giving them anything you want. Like not exercising that character of, you know, aggressiveness. What we seem to think it has in the public. Isaaq:                                  00:34:15 Yeah. Because what happens when you give fire a system, if you leave fire without a system, it'll just burn the forest down. But if you give it a system, which is what they need, then you see that fire running steam engines and covering vastus distances. And in fact, when you look at his expansion, the expansion and the Ahmad was the greatest expansion over the fall. So it's like controlling my and look what it's able to do. Control Water and look at the balance that uh, the, the, the, the, the response that has a man had Rhodiola. I know, but again, to not, I mean sometimes people who don't have an understanding of the four temperaments properly, we look at what we're saying right now and maybe misunderstand, and this is why I always say to people as we're doing the workshop halfway through a new kind of did this as well. Isaaq:                                  00:35:02 And this is national id. This is, once we start looking at the four temperament, we start looking at that person that we know. Then we start working at the, formulating our understandings or co constructing our understandings of the four archetypes based on that person. And that's when you make a blend that don't do that. Don't, don't say so alma is the correct. No, just say understand the caloric. Once you understand the cleric, once you understand the science, once you understand the principle, well, once you understand that the archetype, then you make sense of awareness of everything else. But once you understand it properly and that's why you need, you have to study the science problem. And I think what Malik:                                 00:35:38 you were saying in terms of the federal actually dean, the best schooling that they had was that also sys on them and kind of connect into your point about, you know, traditional settings. Um, and I think if you look at any perfect traditional sending, which the Paul Sys on have set out for us was that, you know, he came in as a person who was not teaching us theology who came as a person, this is what I want to be. Our teacher says that he was experiencing gone. Right? And so now because we don't have the prophesies them, you know, we're trying to articulate that experience. Right? And so, which is important. I think what the prophesies tell him did, he gave him the proper dosage to every single one of them. And their training ground was like second to none. And I think, which is why, you know, when we're taught [inaudible] for example, you can go through the attributes of a loss of a handle, Tyler, right? Malik:                                 00:36:33 But what our teacher says is that does a really resonate with you, a will to sit down and think about La. And when you do that properly, right, you're sitting with yourself first, right? And you're reflecting on, you know, the attributes of God and all these, or all the attributes of the last panel to Ireland and the profits, uh, Cetera, which is why I find, you know, this is a natural step to really sit down with yourself and to know yourself and where you fit. And then everything else, just, it's like that Meese missing puzzle puzzle right now. So I'll move out of people. Isaaq:                                  00:37:10 50 odd, 60 71 ladies who, 17 California. She said to me in the workshops, she said, and I wish I knew this when I was younger, when I was raising my children. She said, but you know, at least I can use that. My grandchildren, they're a 50 year old man came. And he was quite skeptical about that. His temperament throughout the workshop is quite skeptical I could sees from his reactions. And then he came up to me and he said to me, uh, he goes, uh, I'm a physicist. They both started laughing and then, uh, and then he just said, he goes 50 years. And he goes, and I had questions I can never get the answers for, but I never find the answers for you. So now I'll find it. And that's not because this workshop is also amazing or anything like that. It's because the science is the, it's always been, the human beings have always been using that science, maybe two and a half thousand years, far more consistent than the other ones. Isaaq:                                  00:38:02 Right. You know, the, think about it, all these TVs out there, and you've got this theory that lasted two and half thousand years and it's still being developed. And so, uh, you know, and it's, it's worked in so many different environments, so many different, um, people have different backgrounds. And, uh, it's just been an honor and a pleasure really. Honestly, people look at this and they say, Oh, you know, it seems like it's a successful project. It's whatever allows, want, wants it to be in terms of a success. We don't measure success by how things manifest in this world. That's not how we measure success. We don't measure success. You can't measure success of this podcast based on the hits. You measured the success as Russell told us, how do we measure success in the Malott Amal, who've been Nia, you intended this to change the life of this podcast to change the life of a million people. Isaaq:                                  00:38:53 Then that's why you'll get your milk Yammer if you've sincerely believed that that's all. It's a good memory for myself. Sometimes I get caught up with the stats [inaudible] and that's why we do that moment at the start where we ask ourselves one of the activities you do at the start. Maybe you can do this with yourself right now and maybe those who are anyone's listening, even listening to this podcast. The question I'll ask you is to ask yourself, why are you here? Why did you set this up right now? Why are those who are listening, listening, answer that question in your mind? Can I answer it low? You can answer it a lot. But the reason I would say is answer in your mind is because it's far more raw in your mind and it's, it's far more real in your mind. And then ask people to write it down. Isaaq:                                  00:39:35 But if you do want to share it because you're strong boy. Yeah, go on. Go on tiger. So while we started was, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like just a reason. No, no. I'm asking right now cause we have to, when we talk about heart, what's your heart saying right now? Why are you here right now? I know what you did it then. I mean I'm sure we can have that conversation and that, but that's about the podcast there. Bob, what about here? And now, when did you wake up and set this thing? Or what did you respond to? Malik's text. Right? And pause there. And now ask yourself is very different almost. Right? But that's the real talk. Welcome to being real, right? Yeah. So now let's go with that and why that, why did you want that? Alright. So even though we were listening and you keep going and we do this at the start, we just keep going. Isaaq:                                  00:40:32 Why? And then there's a bunch of people who have said settle there and see. So as I'm doing it, there's others who are like, you were like thinking and you see the smile coming by and like, really? I didn't see that coming. And there's others out there who, right, why am I here? Oh Law, what a Saudi, he [inaudible], he a lost the seeking a lost pleasure and the pleasure of the soul to put it down. And they sit there like this. And I say, why that? Why are you seeking a law? You have a throw by that. And they go, oh, okay. It's not that transfer is the natural answer. And it's a good answer. But keep going and really find out why, why you're here. Cause the, for the first time in your life, you're probably gonna hear, you're probably going to hear the statement of your current state. Isaaq:                                  00:41:21 It's very interesting to hear that because it might not be nice, but if you can tune it, it becomes beautiful. Becomes incredibly beautiful. That's why when that mom and that Russell Sass and was sitting into the tree arresting and that man came with the sword and he said, oh Muhammad, who's going to save you from me? What are the sole source mc? Just take that in for a moment. Resting. You know what? What happens in Viet, we're resting for a moment and someone say something and you just respond with what our state is responding and that's why in the morning what you think are gives you an indication as to where your state is for that day. If you run to your business, if you're onto your phone, if you're antici see the stats and that's what you're at, that's where you're at, man. Yeah, that's where you're at. But what was the Russell sort of some state, the moment he a law and one of the wire, I'll say that when he said a law, he said it again and again and again is imagine that all sorts of fun sitting there. This guys look at is there a law, a law, a law [inaudible] and then, and then what happened? Then the metaphysical reality of the [inaudible] sort of affected the physical reality, the physics of that man. What happened after that? He dropped the sword. Isaaq:                                  00:42:43 He ended up here. Then there are some picked 11 and boy, today's who is going to save you from me? Well she your state saying what's interesting about that as well, going back to now, man, I'm in the app, right? So that person might never had the intention to kill the pro's ice on them. All right? But we only in control of their intention, I lie, controls the outcome. So even though he had the intention to kill a, like control the outcome, and that's with everything, it's like really deep. It's like the, the immaterial affecting the physical. Exactly. Philosophy. 100% right? 100% and that's why like, oh, this is quite deep. What is this called? Human interaction. Welcome to the club. Right? Unless we used these only because this is action. Action, right? This button, which is action buttons, right? Just respond. But under this, the actions, actions, the human being is far more. And if I sat here just being this person, I'm supposed to be in this podcast, then we'll just have the conversation up to that level. But if I start to be rebate more real, I'm as to why I'm really, yeah, you don't think I was answering when I asked the wise even I was answering those and I love it because every time I read the workshop, I'm there writing my own intentions as well. Isaaq:                                  00:43:58 Why am I here? And then, you know, it was amazing. One of the girls in the, in the workshop yesterday, she said, ah, Sunday she said, and the students, she said, oh, it's just like the five why's at Toyota. I was like, wow. She says, oh, into altar. They do this as well to really er for their personal development. I mean, they're doing this for cars. They're doing this for cause. The advertising companies using the four temperaments to make money of you to make more money. A few, at the very minimum, I say in the workshop, at the very minimum, very minimum, use the temperaments to make money for yourself. And you know what people did. I've had people message me two weeks after saying, I just wanna let you know I got a job from the temperaments from the workshop. Yes. Isaaq:                                  00:44:42 It's where you take it and if you want to get to God and get to goodbye. Did you want to come to know yourself, get to come to know yourself via, Isaaq:                                  00:44:49             I wanted to ask you in just in terms because cause we probably didn't break out and break down the four temperaments specifically. Could you just give like a quick around dance so maybe someone can kind of identify who they are personally. So really, you know the, the workshop itself is quite long and yeah, Isaaq:                                  00:45:03 one of the reasons is because if you get like a really short shortened version, you probably won't believe it. I think anyway. And I, that was the case with me, but I'm just to, you know, for the sake of the podcast, I would say this, this fall, there's these four types which are again, as I mentioned, everyone has a major and then a secondary. So you have a dominant, a temperament and a sub dominant. And this is very interested in the combination. So you have a, the sanguine is what we call the [inaudible], the popular sanguine. They like spring, wherever they go. There's joy, very optimistic, fun, energetic, loving, sincere, that type of a person. Then you have your phlegmatic person, which is your peaceful phlegmatic. Uhm, does avoid confrontation, good listener, good emotional intelligence, right? There's that type of four person and there's the melancholic, the deep, intense melancholic. Isaaq:                                  00:45:52 Uh, th their type of a, of a, of a persona or their personality is more of a, a, um, it's one of, uh, uh, seriousness, a grounded, realistic, um, and, and, and ideals based, and they sometimes seen as being pessimistic or being negative, but they're not actually negative. Um, they're just, uh, optimistic. They're just, um, idealistic. So they have ideals and because no one matches up to ideals cause ideals like closeted perfection, right? And because people don't matter to perfection, what happens then is it comes across as if they're being negative because you're not good enough. And that's where they love their books. Because in the books they find all the ideals, but in the real world it's like, and you write a, and then you have your cleric, which is a, the powerful cleric, the fiery type. So you have the sign one, which is the airy type and we call those characters the airy fairy type. Isaaq:                                  00:46:46 And the, the, the phlegmatic is the watery type. And the war element for them is water. That was by Paracelsus in the 16th century. We made these connections but others made it as well. And then the melancholic is like earth grounded and full of full of jewels. We've just got to work to it. And that's why they're quite intense in the phlegmatic and the melancholic other, the introverts and then the cleric and the sanguine are extroverted and so you fire your fire and your ar are a lot more, uh, you know, uh, they make the impact there. And then in that moment and the melancholic and the flag are a bit more slower to react because there's a lot more consideration taking place. And that's why they introverted and that's why they, they contribution manifests over a longer period of time. Um, so that, that's, you know, a nutshell. Isaaq:                                  00:47:29 So people would really, um, and again I wouldn't say where would you put yourself, cause you're going to put yourself where you want to put yourself. So I would say is that if all the people around you, if you were to find a consistency in, in what people were to say about you, what would they say about you? Would they put you as a fiery type? Would they put you as a, as a, as a airy type of person but wouldn't? Because I know people say that all I'm out there, people who have interacted with you, they'll, there'll be like a thousand different perceptions of yourself. Yeah. People say that so. Well that's the other thing. And that's why I would say don't ask just some random person that you know or don't ask that person at your workplace cause you're gonna be at your workplace or all these places you're gonna be at these places according to that situation. Isaaq:                                  00:48:12 Or I would say is what are you like when you're with your friends, when you're in your element, and I mean friends, friends, like your homeys people, people who know you from back in the day or soy, your siblings cause they're siblings, you know, siblings are the ones you can't fake it. They'll just look at you and they'd be like, really? You were sharing a story, a story about that impair yourself in terms of when you found out about your own temperament. Yeah. Yeah. Can you expand on that? Yeah, that was interesting. Um, so I mean I was abroad and I was studying and then we were living in Jordan at that point. And uh, and I thought my temperament was of I, it was a particular temperament, but that was because I was living a particular life that wasn't my, like necessarily my comfort zone, especially when you leave your country and you start reading and whatever. Isaaq:                                  00:48:55 Um, but it was actually an evening where some of the students had come out and it was all mostly westerners and we went out for one evening and we were just in, it was a social and that was the day where I wasn't, you know, my jihad against my knifes and all the hard work I was trying to do and trying to be this person that was a day off for me. It was just, I just need to chill right now. You know, do what I do. And it was on that day I discovered that my nerves, that's my temperament. And that's why this is useful because that's the guy who would always be there. So even at your workplace, at your law firm, you're trying to be this fiery law person, whatever. But when you go home, sometimes that just takes a lot of stress out of you because that's not who you are. Isaaq:                                  00:49:33 And that one who you are when you're in your element, when you're in your comfort zone, that's how you recognize your temperament. But again, some people come to the workshop and figure out the temperament. Not everyone does. At the very minimum, you know which one you're not. So, you know, I feel that part popular sanguine and you know you are. And if you're not, you'll say, I don't know which one I am from the other three, but I'm not that person. Right. Process of learning via the opposites. This is a really extremely good tool to use to be honest. Um, but it's like that. And so I had, I had an evening I with some of the friends and I realized, oh my gosh, like I am clearly that temperament. But then there's also the books and when we do the workshop by the end, I just introduced the science and then I recommend the books and they're all in the notes and, and I let people go in and read about them. And then, um, and it was amazing. I was in California and uh, as a 50 year old man who came to the workshop and his daughter sent me a picture of her dad and he bought like the four, five books and like three others by the same authors. And he just was starting this journey of self discovery national. And it's just, Tanzim:                              00:50:34             I feel like I'm two questions to that first one. Come, comes to my head cause it Kinda hits me personally. Right. So I have said this, I've touched on the story, I'm in the past in previous episode, but you see my personal story, um, I wasn't that much into the [inaudible] key 10 when I was in high school. And I know for a fact that [inaudible], you know, I used to get a bit bullied and stuff, so I was in like myself. But then because society and then you see clubbing drinking stuff, you want to be more extrovert with just people around you. So I think I'd be like, you're nine, 10, 11. I tried to be that extroverted guy. I don't know other people perceive of me, but I thought myself, like myself is just being out there extroverted. Um, fun, cool. Make everyone laugh. That sort of guy. Tanzim:                              00:51:21 But then I remember distinctly, and this kind of coincide with going to dean, but every time I'd go home if I go to sleep, my house so empty, like I could feel like very distinct emptiness and I could they also distinct that this day if I reflect or I can still feel how I felt. Right. But um, and then when I started like university, Uni humble, go connect, I'd like mostly like I was always connected with the dean but wasn't like on in depth. Right. And then first unique or connect with brothers and I'm lie not being part of MSA, being part of the clique. My personality from external level, just like flipped. Like it went from that external like you know, out extrovert guy, this and that to like more in my own area. Like more like back then always wanting to be with people and hang out. But then now it was just like, I want to be one, so I just want to be alone. And then like the fulfillment, like the man, like the feeling in your heart when he, I guess have that Yakin it's just like Savannah. Like, I experienced that, but I felt like I feel like you can take like a temperament lens on my experience cause I thought it was more so the fact that I was in practicing it, then I became practicing. But yeah. Isaaq:                                  00:52:31 Well you see, yeah. And that's, that's a question people always ask that in a, how can I work out in my past, which bit was my temperament, which was my native, which was my load change or did I want you saw a con to the theory on the science is that our primary never changes. And I got a feeling, I kind of know which one you are. And normally I switch it off, but I knew you'd be asking part of this because that's what I have to do. Um, cause otherwise I've just always seen people via that lens on ashes switch off and lumber. Like I learned to switch off. And it's wonderful because I take people as they are rather than all these assumptions that I'm making. Uh, but even in this situation, people, you know, people ask all so which one's which? And, and honestly to truly work out, uh, what was, you know, what happened with your temperament is for you to really, you know, only the person who can tell is yourself, but you have to put the shift

Stories of The Awliya, Purifying the heart, Storytelling, Worshiping Allah, Nature of Humans, Tawba.   We touch on all of this with Michael Sugich.   Michael Sugich has studied Sufi doctrine and practice with spiritual masters across the Arab and Islamic world. He has been a professional writer and communications advisor for forty years and has written three books, including Signs on the Horizons and also his latest book release is Hearts Turn: Sinners, Seekers, Saints & The Road to Redemption. He is the co-founder of a successful public relations practice and has advised corporate leaders, senior religious figures and politicians.   Hosts : Tanzim & Peter Gould     Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: info@boysinthecave.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Check out our website - boysinthecave.com   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave   Twitter - @boysinthecave   Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Buy Michael Sugich's Book 'Hearts Turn'.  https://www.amazon.com/Hearts-Turn-Sinners-Seekers-Redemption/dp/0989364003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------  Shownotes   Michael Sugich:                00:00 If you understand that you're supposed to be in Tawba, that this is the, this is part of your nature, is this, this sense of turning. Um, it's, it's an essential part of any kind of spiritual life you have to be in Tawba. It's it turning, it's not the, the repentance, you know, uh, this idea of repentance is like, you know, repent, you know, of all of your sins. Yes. Ideally you would be great if you could stop doing all the stuff that is keeping you back. But that isn't how things work. It's a constant process. And if you can accept that and, and the, the way that you, you achieve that is through remembering our law, returning to our law. Remember Allah, uh, you know, uh, Illah be Dhikri, Lahita, Atman Qulub. If the remembrance of Allah makes the heart peaceful. So if you remember Allah constantly, that's your tool for getting out. You know, Islam is Islam. When you die, you don't have Islam anymore as, as a practical tool that's, that's done. Islam is for your life. So use it. It's a, it's like a tool box. And if you don't use the tools, you won't build anything. But the, and the, the primary tools are remembering them. Tanzim:                              01:41 [inaudible] welcome back to another episode of boys in the cave. My name is tanzim your solo cohost. Actually, sorry, not solo cohost was meant to be, but Alhamdullilah we actually have a very special, um, cohost with us. So Peter, Gould for you guys who've checked out our previous episodes. Peter, we actually interviewed him, designer, um, runs a firm, does his amazing stuff. So he's actually joining me in the cave today, but humble la. In terms of our special guests, we have Michael [inaudible]. So Michael Souk CGH has studied a Sufi doctrine and practice with the spiritual masters across the Arab and Islamic world. He has been a professional writer and communications advisor for 40 years and has written three books including signs of the horizons and also his latest book release his heart turn sinners seekers, saints and the road to redemption. He's the cofounder of successful public relations practice and has advised corporate leaders, senior religious figures and politicians. So asalamu walaykum Peter Gould and Michael Sugich and welcom to boys in the cave. [inaudible] anytime. Alhamdullilah, I know you've, I think you landed about two days ago here in Sydney. So would this be your first time in Sydney, Australia or have you personally I've never been here before. Paula. And what's been your experience so far? Michael Sugich:                03:01 It's lovely. It's very relaxed. Uh, I enjoy it very much. It, it has a, there's a certain, it looks a little bit, if you look at the street level and it looks like America, then you start looking at the houses and the architecture and it's different. So it's a kind of an interesting mix of uh, uh, styles. I feel very comfortable here. Some all of the weather too. It's great. Tanzim:                              03:27 Yeah. It's um, yeah. I want to actually ask you about the weather cause it's a bit unique compared to, um, wherever we've tried. Maybe I think you, you said you went to UK previously. UK is a lot different to here. Michael Sugich:                03:39 Yeah, very much, very much. I um, the UK is a kind of second home for me, so I'm very used to it. But the weather systems there are very, it's very, in the winter it's very dark and closed in. What's beautiful about Sydney so far in my experience is the skies stunning. You know, it's huge. You've got this vast sky and you, it's, it's beautiful. It's really, really beautiful. Peter Gould:                     04:10 You, you were welcomed with a really beautiful big sunset, you know, the whole sky, which is pretty unique. I mean, we don't see that often. So it was, it was waiting for you? I think Tanzim:                              04:21 subhanAllah. Um, I know you, um, you actually had a invent last night. It was in regards to your book release. I assumed that was the main reason why you came to Sydney, also to check out the views and common boys in cave. But, uh, how was your experience so far in terms of the book release, your book launch and how have you, how have, um, so you promoted at [inaudible] avenue or is it specifically, Michael Sugich:                04:48 yes, we, we, we did the, uh, reading here and, um, the response has been very positive. I, I won't know. You'll have to talk to some of the people that were there. But generally speaking, uh, worldwide, the response has been very strong. Um, I'm pleasantly surprised because when you write something, um, you, even though you may think it's good, you don't know what other people will think of it. So it was, um, it was a nice surprise to get such a strong response. And also in terms of sales, the book is selling very quickly. So that's, that's a nice, that's a sign that people are interested in that they like it. Peter Gould:                     05:35 My friend at, um, who runs the Bookstore Zaytuna college and a in Berkeley was just saying that yeah, it's been really popular there and uh, I guess people are resonating with it, but it's um, it's great that we have you in here in Australia sharing it with us. Hello. Tanzim:                              05:51 Hamdulillah even, um, your previous Booker's boys and Cape were affiliated with the Mad Mamluks. Uh, Mahin from the Mad Mamluks, he's a cohost there. He actually was promoting like your previous book, the signs of the horizons. He loved it alot so alhamdullilah, getting that our reception, cause it's a bit unique, I feel that people don't interact enough on a personal spiritual level with, you know, people of, um, within the spiritual path. And I think it's something that's really lacking, especially in the west, like especially me growing up, you're kind of exposed to a specific type of Islam and then it gets sort of normalized to that. But then people are sort of yearning, especially living in like a materialistic world. We're yearning for that sort of spiritual, I don't know, I don't know what to call it, like a cleansing or something of that. So, um, do you feel that that is the case with, especially with Muslims, um, living in the west, what has been your sort of, Michael Sugich:                06:43 well, I think that what's unusual about the two books that I've written so far is that they revolve around storytelling. And storytelling is something that is, is in, uh, intrinsic to, um, Islamic, um, teaching. Uh, but it's something that's been lost in the modern era. Uh, the, the tradition of the TBA cart or hagiographies of the saints is something very old and ancient in Islam. But, uh, recently there has been very little, uh, storytelling. And if you look at the Koran, the Koran is, is, is a series of stories, um, arranged in a, in a almost fragmented fashion or seemingly fragmented fashion, but they're stories. And this is one of the most effective ways of, of putting across a message of, of, of, of teaching. So, uh, what I tried to do is revive this and revive it and tell the stories of some of these people in my own experiences and so on. So both books, um, have followed that kind of format of being short in short, specific individual stories of, um, uh, various people from various walks of life. And in the case of signs on the horizons, it was the story, my story, um, of stories of encounters with these men of God and women and people, you know, very extraordinary people that I've been able to meet along the way. Tanzim:                              08:36 [inaudible] and that's interesting you mentioned storytelling in particular because I think especially I think even with you, I'm Peter Good. You know that you know with your work you've been bothered with bombarded with information, um, and you don't know how to kind of process it. Whereas when you talk about storytelling, I'm sure you to do through your design work as well. Um, you try to tell a story and people are more receptive towards, they tend to remember stories more easily. And I think it's interesting, it's like you're trying to revive that nature of story storytelling in general because even me growing up in Sydney, Australia, when you're getting older, we're not as in touch with the Dean and you analyze some of the stories that you were told when you were younger. You realized that had such deep meanings to it. It was something you probably didn't pick up of Itin pickup, sorry, like when I was younger. Tanzim:                              09:29 But it's like what you're trying to do with your own books in particular, you actually met because for me, you know, you hear about Musa Alayhi Salaam and his stories and the profound effect on me, but you actually met those people in general. But what makes the people that you've met more different to just say your typical kind of person that wants to heal who lives in the west and goes to work from the offset. When you met them, the was there sort of, um, you can automatically tell they're a very deep spiritual guy. Like did you have to engage with them more in order to gather, you know, their personality? Michael Sugich:                10:06 Well, the book doesn't, isn't organized in that way. Sometimes you, you meet someone who has an impact on you and you only meet them for a few seconds, a minute, you know, very brief encounters that you have in other cases in the book. Um, uh, there were people that I had very long relations with, you know, that over a period of many years. And so each encounter is different. But one of the things that, um, I think, uh, one of the qualities that these people share is that they're extremely humble and, uh, they're, they, they're very beautiful character and many of them, I mean, one of the sections in Thai signs on the horizons, for example, [inaudible] it really involves, um, people, um, appearances, people who have one appearance, but they're actually there, but they're actually something else. I mean, they could look like ordinary people, but they have extraordinary inner qualities. Michael Sugich:                11:13 And I think the common thread of the people who have, um, who are saintly, let's say within our tradition, the Muslim tradition, is that they, their ego is, is extinguished. They don't have an ego. And it's very hard to imagine that if you haven't met someone like that because you think, well, how can you not have an ego? And when you meet these people, one of the things that you find is that the, they're extremely kind and humble and, uh, almost, uh, invisible in s in some senses. And they just, they don't get angry. They don't get frustrated. They don't have anxieties in the way that ordinary neurotic people have because their egos are gone or a faced. And this is through spiritual practice and that sort of thing. So that, that, that is, that's something that if, if you have the opportunity ever to meet someone like that, you, you're very fortunate. Michael Sugich:                12:21 There's a, um, there's a, um, a story of one of the saints of Islam, uh, who had a dream of the prophet Mohammed and they sent out to us and he said, Yarra Sula, what is the best thing you can do in this world? And the prophet, and they sent her to send him, said in the dream to sit with a friend of God, a saint for as long as it takes to milk a goat or cook an egg, you know? So the impact of these people is very, very profound. So when you meet them, they make an impression on you. It's almost like being irradiated in a way. So, um, that, that's really what signs in the horizon was, was to try to let people know that these people in our tradition still very much exist, but they're more or less invisible because they're so humble. Michael Sugich:                13:18 They don't really want to be known. Um, and if you, if you only know them by your intention and by the purity of your intention and your need to be, to, to meet them. Uh, the other book is really is more about the, the, um, the, the journeys of people from many different walks of life to, um, uh, to a recognition of the reality of the spiritual reality of Islam. Um, and, uh, and, and to, to the reality of is, uh, of, of faith. And so it, it signs, uh, excuse me, hearts turn is really a, consists of a series of stories of people from you who are from, they could be work. Some of them were criminals, some of them were ordinary people, some of them were our artists and intellectuals who have made a journey to faith. And so there are really interesting stories because you, you end up, um, seeing these people in the, in their transitional, you know, as they transition from being, uh, one of the, one of the stories is involves a gangster. Michael Sugich:                14:47 He was a, a heavy east London racketeer and he became a Muslim. How did, how did he get to that? He knew he was nearly beaten to death and he saw friends die. So it was the confrontation with death. Another story involved, um, a young man who was a student who was from a Brachman Hindu Bryman family and, uh, he became a Muslim after he had to, to oversee the, the burial of his, uh, his, his uncle, uh, in Benares. So, um, uh, and it sent him on a kind of a spiritual search because he was, again, confronted with death. And there were, you know, many different stories as a story of, uh, of a man who started as a Jew became a, um, a, an angle, an Anglo Catholic, then a beatnik fought with the Fidel Castro in Cuba, uh, ended up, you know, as a kind of degenerate hippy in a, in Tangier and learned his Islam through his hash connection. Michael Sugich:                16:05 So, you know, all these strange, interesting stories, um, kind of show you how the heart changes. And the point of that book is to show that [inaudible] that, that the nature of the human nature, the nature of, of people is that they're constantly turning, that the spiritually, that this idea that if you, if you sin, you're going to go to hell is not true. You see, I mean, if you sin and you die sinning, maybe you will, who knows? But the prophet Mohammed Array Serato Sonam said, if you did not sin, he was talking to his community. He said, if you did not sin, God would destroy you and replace you with the people who sinned so that they could turn to God asked for forgiveness and he would forgive them. So that's the nature of the, that's human nature to do something wrong. Everybody sins, even saints, Saint Sin, but the sins of a saint are different than the sins of an ordinary person because a saint, his sin, an ordinary person, sin would be a from something gross doing something wrong. Michael Sugich:                17:26 The sin of a saint is forgetting God for a second. That's a sin for a saint. So everyone, everyone, their heart is constantly turning. You do some of the Prophet Mohammed and I said to Sadam, he said, I make Toba or I repent 70 times a day. This was the prophet Mohammed. So people in nowadays, people think of themselves as being sinners or then they're unworthy and that I've done all these things wrong. I mean, if you're living in the modern society, of course you're going to do things wrong. You get upset, you do something, you, you, you have a passion that you follow and then you feel bad about it and so on and so forth. But that's the he, that's human nature and that's the way you're, you're created to sin. And then to then to have the heart turn. And so it's a dynamic. You're constantly, constantly turning. And as you do that in that process, then you become purified and then in the heart becomes pure. So you have people who have done very terrible things. And this is true historically as well. People who were, you know, very bad people who became great, great saintly people, um, through this process. So this is what the book is about and it's a lot, many, many stories about people like that. Criminals, thieves, and also artists and intellectuals and people who've gone have, have really sort of made a journey to faith. Tanzim:                              19:11 So I think that made my heart turn. I don't know that you hit it, but that was definitely a vetting a, I think even, um, the, the um, would be apparently not on the dean, but then when he becomes a Mathy, he'll be on the straight path. So I think that's four, I think from memory as well. So they go, it relates back to you that, you know, great people were, you know, seen as I one time. It's about making the hot hot turn in that aspect. So it's definitely a lot of things that people can, uh, take away from what you said because a lot of people, you know, especially in the world that they live in, you know, bombarded with, you know, her arm around them, especially in the west. So it's not easy to get around it. So they feel sometimes, what are you quoting a negative state of mind thinking that they won't be able to turn to the straight path or they feel that they won't be able to really connect with the low, even feel shy, like to connect as they've seen so much. So what kind of advice, because you've interacted with people who have been in their path, what kind of advice would you give, um, to those people? Cause we have a young audience as well listening into boys in the cave. So it'd be really good to, um, get your insights about that. Michael Sugich:                20:20 Well, it's, you, first of all, I would say two to a younger audiences. You don't ever think that by doing something bad that you're doomed to perdition because that's not the case at all. You have a chance of, of changing. Of course, if you don't want to change, if you're happy with the way you are and then go for it, do whatever you want. There's a, in, in, in the Koran it says La Crafty. There is no, um, uh, compulsion in the religion. You, you have, you absolutely have the freedom to send yourself to hell if you want. There's isn't, there's no compulsion, but you have the, the ability to change up until the moment that you die. And this, the, there are many stories about people who, who transform just before they die, you know, in old age. Um, and so when you're young and you're doing something wrong and you know it's wrong and you don't feel good about it, you can change. Michael Sugich:                21:26 And the PR the, the Prophet said that if you, if you repent, it is as if you haven't done anything wrong. In other words, if you do change, you say, I'm not going to do this anymore and you stop. It's as if you never did it in the first place. So this, this Chi, this understanding is very important because young people today, young Muslims especially because they've been influenced by, you know, a kind of doctrine or theology that is very rigid in on and, uh, you know, uh, on unforgiving, um, they, they feel that if they did something wrong, that's it. They're going to go to hell. And that's not true. It's absolutely not true. And anyone who tells you otherwise is, is, is misguided. Um, because the whole point is that everyone sins, everyone all the time daily, but the sins become more and more refined. Michael Sugich:                22:37 So you know, you're doing something really bad, right? Like a major sin or something. If you stop doing it, it's as if you, if you never did it, if you really stopped doing, and also, um, sometimes you, you do something and then you'll backslide and you'll do it again. So then you, you change again. You repent, you turn to God again and say, Whoa, I'm sorry. I'm, I'll, I'll change again. So you, it's a constant process until, um, uh, in, until you stop doing these things. And that's, this is the nature of, that's the nature of the is human nature. Human nature is that you do things wrong. And that's how you learn. So you, you, you air and then you, you repent. Now if you think that you don't have to, that's another problem. You see what I mean? Cause if you want to live a, a balanced and a happy life, you, you really don't want to hurt other people do or, you know, cheat, steal, do whatever it is that, that, that you're doing that hurts people. Michael Sugich:                23:48 Um, and so, uh, I mean one of the, one of the stories in the book [inaudible] involves, uh, a guy who was a womanizer. And He, at one point in his life, he went to hell, to figurative hell. He was in a state of being in hell. And one of the things that happened to him is that all the women that he'd had is a one night stand came through in from the wall toward him. It was like a horror. And he realized how he'd hurt them. Do you see what I mean? And, and so he, he stopped doing that. That was a very terrible thing because he saw how he, how much he hurts someone doing that. So th but this, if he hadn't done it, he wouldn't have changed. Do you see what I mean? Well, the, the man who, there was a man, one of the stories is about someone who was a gangster and he was fueled on rage. Michael Sugich:                24:52 And he, he loved to be, he loved to be in a brawl. And he's, he said that the reason he liked fighting was because he was so insecure that the only time he ever, ever felt secure was when he was in the middle of a brawl, beating someone up or getting beaten. It w it made him feel, it made him feel whole in a way. And then he read, when he came to Islam, he read the Hadith of the prophet and I said to send [inaudible] where one of the Sahaba came to the prophet and he, he said, give me counsel. And the Prophet said, do not be angry. And the Sahaba asked him again, give me more counsel. He said, do not be angry. And he kept repeating, do not be angry. And this man, uh, when he heard this, he said, it changed my life because he couldn't imagine not being angry. Michael Sugich:                25:51 His whole life was fueled by rage and the anger and being offended by things. And so what happened was that when he would do after he became a Muslim was he would go out with the intention that he would not get angry. So he'd go out and someone would insult him or something like that and he, instead of beating the guy, he would, he would make himself not angry. And so you, it's when you, when you see, when you kind of see all the various permutations of how people change, it's really very moving because you see, you see how the heart is so malleable and so soft and able to change. Um, if it's right, be guided, if, if it, if there's guidance there. So that's, that's what the second book is about. Tanzim:                              26:49 Those were amazing insights. I feel like he's already taught us like, hello, what the book is, but like he was, but just, it's like he's read the whole book in front of us. But because of the vibe that you give in regards to certain people, I think a lot of people can resonate with it. Especially because like for example, you're giving these examples of people coming to the straight path at the same time we, I think what we tend to do is look everything, not me. I tend to look at everything on more of a surface level, like seeing all disguise, doing the wrong thing, this and that. But it's about seeing it a bit more deeper. Seeing that they can come back to the faith and be, you know, a practicing really good, you know, most of them are a good person and we don't tend to do that or I don't tend to do that. We tend to be be a bit more unforgiving. Maybe it's the way Islam was preached to us when we're younger and I feel like you're actually changing that narrative. So humble. Um, I might actually have to wrap it up there because you got an event tonight, but I'm, I don't want to keep you waiting too long, but with any final thoughts you wanted to, um, tell our listeners in particular regards to your book. It could be anything in general, like a lot of takeaways by it. Michael Sugich:                28:04 No, it's, I think it, it's, it's a fun read. There's a, there's a lot in it that's not heavy. There's a lot in it that that's, that's, that's funny and, and light and there's some great stories in it and I think people would really enjoy, and you can learn a lot because I've included some of the ancient stories. I've mixed them with contemporary stories and the, there are many different, you know, many, I think there, there are stories that will resonate with we're very big audience, not just not just criminals or excrement or something. It's, it, it really, um, I think it's w it would be worth having a look at anyway. It's available here at the center. Peter Gould:                     28:52 Yeah. Music online as well. You can buy online. Lots of places Michael Sugich:                28:56 available on kindle as well. So we're online. Peter Gould:                     29:00 Yeah. And I'll just add to that the, yeah, I mean lots of different people from walks of life that have come across the book that I've talked to about have said the same thing and different stories resonate with different people. So I think it's a good gift as well for people that are kind of, um, well it just, everyone will take something from it and some of them are very, very moving as well and others are more lighthearted. So, um, I think this is a very welcome addition to, um, you know, we might be going to classes or and doing, you know, really getting going into some heavy books and you know, very deep things. But this has the depth and the message and, and the lessons are deep, but the way you read it is, is um, easy and fun and um, you know, just something will, I think everyone will enjoy checking it out. Tanzim:                              29:44 Yeah, definitely. We'll definitely put the links to your book in our show notes so then people can check it out in shaa Allah but jazakAllah khaiyran for coming on boys in the cave was really inspiring. Talk is very unique because it's about getting the message across about stories, about, you know, people turning back to the straight path. It's not something I've done to regularly on the show, but yeah, it does. [inaudible] for coming on boys in the cave. Thank you. So for our listeners, thank you for giving us your attention. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to email info@boysinthecave.com or find us on Facebook and you can follow a journey through Instagram. Please leave a five star rating on iTunes. That greatly helps us. So for my special guest, Michael Sugich, myself, and my special cohost, Peter Gould. This is Tanzim signing you off. Assalamu Alaykum.  

Islamic expansions, Campaigns, The Mongols, Muslim rulers, Sacred history, Historical objectivity, Orientalism, Hadith criticism   We touch on all of this with Hassam Munir.   Hassam Munir is currently pursuing an MA in Mediterranean and Middle East History at the University of Toronto. He is a research fellow at Yaqeen Institute. He has experience in the fields of journalism and public history, and was recognized as an Emerging Historian at the 2017 Heritage Toronto Awards.   Hosts : Tanzim & Rafael     Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: info@boysinthecave.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Check out our website - boysinthecave.com   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave   Twitter - @boysinthecave   Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hassam's Online Visibility https://twitter.com/HassamM_ https://www.ihistory.co/ https://www.facebook.com/hassammm   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shownotes Intro:                                   00:00:00             Tanzim:                              00:00:16 Welcome back to another episode of boys in the cave. My name is Tanzim and I'm joined by my cohost Rafael and alhamdullilah I'm joined by someone very special today. So Hassam Munir one year is the, is our special guest today and he is currently pursuing an MBA in Mediterranean and Middle East. History at the University of Toronto is a research fellow at Yaqeen Institute. He has experience in the field of journalism and public history and was recognized as an emerging historian as at the 2017 heritage Toronto awards. So Assalam Walaykum Hassan and welcome to boys in the cave. Hassam:                             00:00:52 Walaykum Assalam thank you so much for the invitation Tanzim:                              00:00:56 JazakAllah Khayr for uh coming on accepting our invitation and actually just doing some background research. I saw you were on, um, you've already done a few interviews, you know, you're in involved with Yaqeen institute, so how has your experience been just doing all that sort of stuff when it comes to, you know, putting your material out there even I'm, I've seen some blogs and articles that you've done as well. Hassam:                             00:01:19 Uh, yeah, absolutely. My entire, um, you know, reason for getting into the field of history has always been about just trying to make that knowledge more accessible because there's, you know, a lot of amazing research that's done at universities, uh, by independent researchers, even by some of the traditional, uh, traditionally trained Islamic scholars around the world. And, but it never sort of reaches the public in a way that they can, uh, you know, easily engage with it and learn from it and find inspiration in it. So I just tried to take information from some of these, you know, thick, dusty books in libraries and these journal articles that people generally will not find or go looking for and try to repackage that information and presented in a way that people, uh, are sort of, um, you know, there's a shock value to it that wow, is this also Islamic history? Is this also what Muslims have done or what Muslims have experienced? Um, and, uh, I think it makes for a much more, uh, thorough and, uh, a much more, uh, you know, appreciated understanding of, uh, who we are as Muslims and what our tradition is all about. Tanzim:                              00:02:28 Yeah. I think for sure starting from the very beginning of Islamic history, and I know this is something that a lot of your research has gone into, the kind of spread of Islam and the nature of that. Um, but one of the things that brought me to Islam was actually studying history. So I study history at University of Sydney and um, mashAllah, I was really, yeah, if you saw my marks, you wouldn't be saying that, but I have the low things. Everything's going all right so far. But I suppose one of the things that brought Rafael:                                00:03:00 me to Islam was my fascination with Islamic history. I remember when I was about 13 or 14 years old, I found this dusty old history textbook in the back of a library at school one day. And I just flipped through it cause it's always been my life. History has always been my passion and, and the thing I wanted to make a career out of. So I remember picking up this dusty old textbook and it had in the Islamic world to 1600 and I think I read that 10 page chapter about 150 times and I just couldn't take my eyes and my hands off it. It was the most fascinating thing I'd ever read. I obviously hadn't heard much about Islam growing up too in a, in a non Muslim family in the West. Um, but picking up this textbook, I was kind of entranced by Islam. Rafael:                                00:03:45 It's symbols and the early history and, and, and it's the way it kind of burst forth this tiny isolated peninsula, uh, that had been of little interest to anyone, uh, for, you know, the Romans, the Persians, no one really cared about the Arabian peninsula and, and, and especially the hedgers, um, and then how it spread to become this empire of science and, and culture, uh, being very important as well. So for people who aren't really aware of the beginnings of Islam and how it spread from sort of, you know, a very small group of Arab, um, and Abyssinian, uh, followers in a very isolated part of the world to kind of global religion that flourished from China all the way to the Pyrenees in France. Um, how did that, how did that happen and what were the sort of, you know, what was the sort of breakdown of, of that transformation? Hassam:                             00:04:48 Um, so that's obviously a very, very large complex question that people, um, you know, you could dedicate your entire life to studying it and people have and you only end up scratching the surface. Right? Um, there's many questions within that. Um, you're right in that it was an incredible, um, transportation, uh, sorry TransformNation I should say at the global level. And um, but it was very much, uh, the foundations were very much laid, um, during the lifetime of Prophet Mohammad. So Allahu la was sending himself. And this is something we sometimes, uh, you know, fail to recognize in this larger question of Islamic history and the spread of Islam, et Cetera, is that the principles and the values and, um, the precedents that were set by the profits of the law while they was selling them and his followers around him, um, have remained the, uh, consistently accessible source of inspiration for Muslims throughout history. Hassam:                             00:05:52 So obviously in this question we have many different questions about and um, Muslims conquering certain areas of the world, Islam spreading to certain areas of the world, uh, through other sort of factors and mechanisms such as trade, such as migration, such as intermarriage, such as influential people in different societies converting to Islam and their followers sort of following them into Islam. So there's these many different factors as well as the scientific production of the Muslims, you know, inheriting all this knowledge from the pre Islamic civilizations and developing it, uh, with the purpose of understanding, um, the creation of a loss of hunter who with Eila, and then also sharing it further back with other civilizations. So, you know, it's a very complex, there's so many angles that we can go on here on this question. But I think a key thing to keep in mind as a starting point is that it is the consistency of Islam that has been exceptional throughout history. Hassam:                             00:06:58 A lot of movement start, a lot of developments happen, a lot of new ideas and ideologies emerge in history. But over time, as they spread to different places, they become very drawn out. They become stretched in to the point that whatever you know, connection, um, whatever original source, uh, they had that brought it together initially. Um, it had become so different and so distant from that that it's almost like you have, you know, different ideologies and it's a completely different thing. But Islam has always been Islam and the core on obviously the authoritative source, the Sunnah of The Prophet SAW as the authoritative source. And the Islamic tradition. So well organized right from the very beginning. You know, the process through which Islamic knowledge was produced, that no matter where Islam went, whether it went to China, whether it went to South America, whether it went to Europe, whether it went to small islands in the Pacific, at different points in history, Islam could be practiced keeping those core principles and those core practices of the tradition intact while also taking whatever was acceptable in the local culture and local customs and bringing that into the way Islam was practiced. Hassam:                             00:08:16 And I think that's part of the beauty of our history. Rafael:                                00:08:19 One of the points I kind of wanted to touch upon fall was that that is certainly been the case. Um, I think certainly, I think probably from a later sort of time, a lot of people would argue that early Islamic history was actually quite fractured. Uh, you know, you had the kind of [inaudible] theological differences. For example, you had like my Teslas and Ashley's, which actually became a very political difference during the time of the manner. Uh, but you also had the kind of insurrectionists, uh, hardy. Jeez, you had the [inaudible] movements and then you had the Condo of Tanzim:                              00:08:56 Plethora of impious Caliphs who didn't really seek to do anything except for advanced their own position. So how, how did you know, how does that sort of fit into the understanding that Islam was traditionally maintained to? Because even people say that motel z lights, like if it didn't get backing from the government, then we would have all been from the Airbus. Yeah. From, from [inaudible]. That's where the issue comes is like, do we truly have that, um, tradition intact and are we really, um, continue that tradition that we see from whistle whistle some or was it kind of dictated by the governments or the powers of the time? Hassam:                             00:09:37 Um, if, you know, it's a point that can be argued. Um, and I think there are some arguments, uh, you know, good arguments that could be made on, um, many different perspectives and approaches to how we answered this question. My argument would be that there has still, uh, been that consistency, um, relative to the way that other ideas, other, uh, worldviews, ways of understanding the world have spread throughout history. Within Islam, there has still been that a consistency and still been that, um, regular, um, you know, consistent reference back to the original sources. So yes, there have been many different movements. Um, there have been many different understandings as there continued to be today. Many, you know, accepted and many non accepted differences of opinion. Um, and I think, you know, once again it speaks to diversity, um, that is possible within the Islamic tradition and how, um, sort of Islam can respond to different contexts and different, um, you know, situations without using its essential reality. Hassam:                             00:10:47 Um, but at the same time I would argue that that consistency has remained. Yes, there were very, uh, you know, um, very pronounced sort of differences between people, uh, practicing Islam or claiming to practice Islam in different ways and different forums. Um, and it's, sometimes it is very clear when, um, they seem to have really pushed the boundaries of what we can consider the Islamic tradition. But I would still argue that there has been, um, this, you know, I think historically speaking from a historical lens, the fact that, um, even today a Muslim from Siberia and Russia can travel, um, and find a must Jude in sub Saharan Africa, in west Africa and go inside the Messenger and they wouldn't need an introduction to what they have to do. The fact that they know that they're do certain things that they have to do, the fact that they know where to stand for the prayer, what is being recited, et Cetera, all of these things, um, the fact that we can expect that to be a normative case, I think that is a very exceptional thing about the Islamic tradition within human history. Because rarely, extremely rarely, and to be honest, I wouldn't, um, find any comparable example of that level of, uh, shared, um, you know, core principles, values, beliefs and practices, um, in any other worldview that has existed and spread so far in the world, uh, throughout Islam, throughout human history, I should say. Rafael:                                00:12:21             I would certainly agree with that in the sense that Islam was maintained, uh, from a very early, from a very, very early time in kind of this understanding of traditional knowledge and knowledge of the tsunami that that was, uh, transmitted through various teachers to all the teachers who kept the, the traditional life. Um, and you know, we still have preserved aspects of the early foundational takes of Islamic law for example, um, that have been authentically transmitted and we still use them as a source today. And I don't think that there are really, as you mentioned, any other major religious or cultural traditions that can claim that. But one of the points I really wanted to ask you about was how did religion inform the early conquests of the Muslim empires, particularly? Um, the one that, that first springs to mind, and it was probably the most significant, was the, uh, defeat the invasion and defeat of both the Byzantines empire. Rafael:                                00:13:19 So the Roman Byzantines in Syria and the Persians, cause everyone understand sort of that Muslims defeated the Persians and the Romans. It was always that prophecy with, uh, I'm fairly sure a full loss of la La Hello. Someone mentioned that, you know, the two great empires and pals of the time would be defeated by the Muslims and people kind of laughed at that, but then eventually they did. But how, how did religion inform those movements? So some people would certainly claim that it was a, a kind of Muslims were implored to go out militarily and expand the empire. Was it, was it, was that the case or was it more kind of, I've also heard people say that it just so happened that the Muslims became embroiled in conflicts with these two powers and then, uh, consequently they, those two powers were defeated by Muslim armies and hence Muslims occupied the lands. Hassam:                             00:14:16 Um, so, you know, one of the things I always like to, you know, emphasize in my research, um, for most topics in Islamic history or history in general, is that we often seek, um, very straightforward sort of, uh, you know, simple answers to extremely complicated situations. If we take the life of one individual, whether today or a thousand years ago, if I take my own life and why I make my decisions, how I make my decisions, how my decisions impact my environment, how am I environment responds and impacts my further decisions? It's a very complicated process regardless of what my, uh, stated, uh, purpose, what my stated inspiration might be. Right. So that's one thing to keep in mind, not to say that this isn't a question that needs to be discussed, but I think that's very important to keep in mind before we jump into that discussion. Hassam:                             00:15:12 Now you mentioned the two sort of primary, uh, you know, commonplace perspectives on this question. I think, um, the latter one is more, you know, the, the, the perspective which says that the Muslims, um, became embroiled in the, uh, you know, the political developments in the region. Um, I think that one is just a bit more, um, you know, leaning towards d, You know, a reasonable interpretation of the sources we have available. Let me put it that way. But at the same time, there was this, uh, you know, this impetus, right? There are, these are Heidi from the profits of the law who leu was along himself that predict these, uh, particular conquests of the Byzantines and assassinate Persians, um, in particular and also Islam reaching particular places. So initially I think the most reasonable explanation is that initially during the life of the profits of the law, who, while he was selling them and his early successors, what the idea was that, um, the message of Islam had to be communicated and in cases where there were, um, limitations on the communication of that message. Hassam:                             00:16:35 Um, and you know, part of the communication of that message was the political situation of the Muslims because from the perspective of people in the Byzantine Empire, indecisive and empire, um, they recognize this suddenly emerging threat just because of how, um, fast Islam spread in the Arabian peninsula itself. Right? So for them it was this serious threat. It wasn't the Muslims, like, you know, a fly sort of going and landing on their nose and them trying to like swat it away or something that initially caused these things, but they recognize Islam and we have a Heidi's and narrations that, you know, tell us to that effect as well that they were concerned. And for example, um, you know, when I was Sophie on, uh, before he embraces Islam, he goes to Syria on a trade mission, a heraclitis. He actually, you know, gives him a little interview about who is this person [inaudible] then he's asking all of these questions because they need this information. Hassam:                             00:17:33 So it wasn't a Muslim, you know, insurgency into these empires that started these conflicts initially. Um, there was this, um, idea on, you know, the end on the side of the Muslims within the understanding and the worldview of the Muslims. And this was normative at the time, um, that they had to communicate this message and this worldview and they had to brush aside some of the impediments. Right. But at the same time, you know, on the other side, there was this more political, um, perspective on the situation that this is an emerging sort of regional power and we have to respond to it. So oftentimes you'll find the Roman armies coming two words Arabia rather than the Muslims going to words Roman controlled sham first. Right? So again, it becomes a very complicated situation once the Muslims have actually established their rule there. And even the conquest, I mean, the word conquest is very broad and very easy to use to explain, um, wary complex events again, but not all places were militarily conquered. Hassam:                             00:18:44 Some places, uh, the Muslim armies were actually welcomed by the local people because they were seen as liberator's from more oppressive rulers who had ruled in that region before. Right. And in some places there were treaties made, there was no conflict, there were treaties made, and then the Muslims receded and went back, et cetera. So there were all these different types of scenarios that played out in different situations. Yes, there's no denying. And I think Muslims sometimes do go, you know, overstep when it comes to denying that there was a, a military and there was a violent aspect to the conquest at times. But when you see, for example, you know, one of my favorite examples is business insider. This online blog. Um, they had this animation that they posted a few years ago on Facebook, which shows the spread of different religions and you know, they show when it comes to Islam, obviously it quickly, this little green splotch on the map emerges and you know, around the year six 22 and then it just explodes and spreads all over North Africa, Asia, everything is everywhere all of a sudden. Hassam:                             00:19:55 And the fact too, I think the important thing to really recognize here is that the spread and the movement of Muslim armies can't be equated with the spread of Islam itself. Because the real question here is many historians will recognize that yes, it was normative for one people to conquer another people than for different particular localities. There'll be under one empire, then there'll be under another empire. And this was how the premodern world, um, worked. Right. Um, but the real problematic question is that well, were all those people then forced to convert to Islam at the point of the sword when those armies actually got there and what these maps and these animations kind of, uh, mislead people into thinking is that just because the Muslim armies within a hundred years had reached Spain and had reached the of China and all these places? You know, even at the time in many places in Arabia, Islam hadn't been established in the sense that the majority of the population was Muslim, much less anywhere outside the Arabian peninsula. Hassam:                             00:20:59 And obviously that's a different question, you know, all together about how did Islam actually spread the pace of it, the mechanisms and factors involved. But I think the key thing to keep in mind is that yes, the reconquest yes, at times that were violent at times of are nonviolent, but the conquest themselves do not represent the spread of Islam or the imposition. The forced imposition of Islam on to any of the conquered peoples and such conquests were normative at the time. And when we speak of them, we're speaking of them not in a prescriptive sense, not in the sense that Muslims today have to get up and replicate that situation, but as a historical phenomenon in a descriptive sense that yes, this happened, we're not going to deny it and we're going to take the relative, uh, lessons that we can from it. Uh, from a historical perspective. Rafael:                                00:21:49 Well, you mentioned that there's historians who have the opinion that by the nature of empire empires to expand like they're with you. I don't think you can ever name an empire in history that was content with its influence. It always wanted to grow its influence and, and grow its wealth and its, and prestige of the dynasties that ruled it and so forth. I think someone asked me, Hassam:                             00:22:10 sorry, one thing I'd just like to mention briefly about empires. I think another thing to keep in mind is that there's a lot of, um, you know, anti imperialism sentiment and anti imperialism, movements, et cetera. Uh, nowadays and many people, um, including myself and others, we've sort of learned in an environment where, you know, imperialism is taught to be a very bad thing. But again, from an intellectual perspective, um, we do have to ask questions about, you know, speaking about the expansion of empires as this really horrible thing that occurred in history. And yet, even today, you know, we continue to live in a world that has empires in different forums. There are multinational corporations that exploit people. Um, there are, you know, foreign policy infants, Rafael:                                00:22:57 Susan wanted states governments and was it any different from an empire? Hassam:                             00:23:01 Exactly. They function essentially to the detriment of conquered peoples. They function exactly like pre-modern empires and we continue to benefit even those of us who claim to be against imperialism. We continue to benefit the clothes. We wear, the food we eat, the cars we drive, we benefit from, you know, the suffering of people who are, uh, having these, you know, imperialist ambitions imposed on them without their free will. So I think we have to interrogate ourselves and keep that in mind as well. Um, that before we, you know, step back and start to judge everyone in history for everything they've done. How do those practices continue today and how do we allow those practices to continue and benefit? Yeah. Rafael:                                00:23:42 The kind of subtle empire that, that, you know, alludes our kind of gaze now. But we somehow manage to criticize a every other empire in history. It's, it's strange, isn't it? I mean, you don't have to look very deep to see the, uh, the empires that are at play that the empires were playing the game of chess in the world at the moment. Um, does even, you know, like tributaries and puppet rulers that are established nowadays that are exactly the same as what happened to our history. Exactly the same thing. But I think it's different words, different, different words, different definitions. And this called, we call it something else. Yeah. It's like they're trying to put fancy meanings to those words in order for us to look as if we're smarter and better. No, we've, we've progressed. Yeah. We're on. Yeah. We've politically reminder. Well, that's not exactly true. Rafael:                                00:24:32 The same ideas as back in those times. I actually wrote Hassan a major essay about the expansion of Islam. And um, I answered the question about how is whether Islam was spread by the sword exactly the same as kind of how you mentioned that understanding of the empire being the kind of political system and empires by their nature expanding. And so I said, if you believe that the empires, uh, that did expand in the name of Islam, we're acting Islamically then the real question is actually not did the Muslim empires expand, but was the expansion of the Muslim empires the kind of religiously correct way or the religiously correct manner and more important than that? What did that expansion actually mean? Like you mentioned, uh, the, the misconception that Muslims were forced to convert. It was even, it was even less than Muslims, uh, that, sorry, that normal, some populations were not forced to convert in on my ad times. I actually read that they didn't like, uh, conversions as much and basically they still levied the GCR, which was the, um, tax for the religious tax against certain new converts to Islam from Persian and Christian backgrounds. Such was the discouragement of conversions because the early or Maya the elite didn't really want the, or didn't really consider the need for their actual populace to become Muslim. Is that, is that true? How, how accurate is that? Hassam:                             00:26:05 Um, well, based on all of the sources I've encountered, um, that's exactly right. You know, for the [inaudible] situation in particular at much of that earlier, you know, quick expansion of Islam from Spain to China that we're talking about did you know, occur in d omega yet period between sort of the six sixties and the seven 50, that century was when most of that expansion occurred. Um, and you know, again, from the sources I've, uh, come across and sort of engaged with it is exactly that, that the, uh, as a matter of policy, um, they liked to, um, sort of, uh, keep de non Muslim populations as they were and actually actively discouraged conversion. And you know, this was for one because it wasn't any kind of, um, you know, this was much easier for the conquered populations to accept because it almost became a sort of, um, secularized expansion. Hassam:                             00:27:05 Right. It is just another empire divorced from the worldview that these particular people stand for. Yes, they might believe in it, but they often, you know, the Muslim conquerors, they wouldn't even live in those cities that they conquered. They would have their own little settlements just outside the city, et cetera. And this is how some of the biggest cities that we know of in the Islamic world, such as Cairo, right, was formed. There was an existing city and there was a Muslim settlement of the Muslim forces outside that city. And slowly the two of them, you know, came together and formed this enormous metropolis in Egypt. Right. And, and so there wasn't, um, that sort of active and in the early stages, a not even, um, Darwalla for example, right? Not even invitation to Islam. So all of this was an, we have to slow down the pace and look at it. Hassam:                             00:27:52 This was an extremely gradual process. The Amelia is in particular coming back to their policy. They loved the fact that, um, they could, um, extract the, uh, GCI in some cases it was the GCO which was the, the payment, um, required from the non Muslim population, um, in exchange, uh, for protecting dem, offering protection to them. Um, and, and, and sometimes it wasn't GCO, sometimes other forms and other forms of tribute and other forms of, um, you know, payment. And we're also established and for the conquered people, this was often nothing new, the same kind of attributes that they had paid to rulers in the past and oftentimes much easier on them than what they had paid to, uh, you know, would it be the Romans or the Persians or whoever that particular, um, pre Islamic ruler happened to be. Um, and again, it's just a, you know, it's almost, you know, silly to keep saying this, but at the same time it's just, you know, baffling how often in our discussions we don't keep in mind how complex this movement is. Hassam:                             00:29:04 Again, like I mentioned, and that's why I like to mention this previously one persons, um, decisions are so complicated. Now imagine the decisions of thousands of people as a, you know, and their interactions and the environment they build and how their environment affects them, et cetera. So in the Umayyad case as well, there is this particular environment where they were encouraging expansion. They love the Jessia and it was during the Ommaya time. I think that, um, the leadership really started to behave like, uh, the pre Islamic, uh, sort of rulers and, uh, you know, in I'm one article of way building, you don't have pirate builders and kings and extracting tribute for and expanding their empire for the sake of just having to claim to this enormous land, et cetera. And when you actually look at it and you know, look at their policies about whether they were trying to convert people to Islam, that wasn't the case at all. And it seems like it almost wasn't a priority for them. Rafael:                                00:30:03 Yeah. I've even heard commentators and historians referred to the [inaudible] and even the ambassador, uh, qualify as being almost comparable to secular rulers in the sense that some of them were even nominally Muslim. Hassam:                             00:30:18             I would see lots of examples. Yeah. Rafael:                                00:30:21 That, that they really had no interest in imposing a quote unquote state religion. And that religion didn't even inform the kind of laws that they often, you know, mandated the Baitullah mother. Didn't I have the like, wasn't that sort of things like that sort of justify that they were, you know, um, religiously inclined if some of them were definitely religious, Saint Klein, for example, Amada monopolies eas, no one can really doubt the piety and genuine faith of California would have been Abdelaziz, but there were 100%. There were, there were, um, Caliphs who had very little to do with any kind of religious, uh, promotion in terms of the populace. However, I think this is something that's a distinction. There were kind of creations of Islamic, uh, culture at the time that were done. So not to promote Islam in the society, but to kind of display the prestige on and the glory of the rulers themselves. Would you, would you say, would you say that's correct? Hassam:                             00:31:21 Um, I would say that's absolutely correct. I mean, if we look at, again, you know, the best, uh, of examples of Muslim leadership, um, the profits of the law while he was sending them, there were no, um, you know, just look at the, any of the descriptions of his own mosque during his time. Right. Um, and, uh, you know, just built of, um, very, uh, basic form of sort of raw materials, et Cetera, whatever it was locally available. And then you see examples of even when these Islamic Empire had considerably expanded, um, like during the time of, uh, automotive, no hotdog, but at the Ella Hawaiian, you see the example of, for example, the Roman ambassador coming to Medina and finding him just laying sort of in the dirt outside of Dumbest Shit, right? So you find all of these examples of their, um, a, of their, of their simplicity, not their powerlessness, but their, and not a false, uh, sort of, uh, you know, management on display of humility. Hassam:                             00:32:25 But they're genuine simplicity because they're, they were investing their time and energy elsewhere. And oftentimes in what you see in the later kings is you'll see these, um, grand, a sort of structures that are to establish their own prestige, um, and sometimes even the prestige. So sometimes it's a mix of boats such as the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, right by, um, uh, I've done [inaudible] given that amount of wine who was considered the first empire builder, one of the early, uh, [inaudible] k lifts. Um, but it does become about, you know, Thrones and glittery buildings. And my favorite example from Islamic history is really the, the Taj Mahal. Right? Um, and you see this building, which had really, you know, obviously it's making a lot of money for India today and has for a very long time, but considering the fact that it, there is considerable evidence that it actually, um, you know, brought down to some extent the economy of the Mughal empire at the time, um, complete, you know, waste and for what? Right. And representing what exactly. So, uh, there were, um, many examples I think where rulers did pursue policies and they did pursue projects that had very little to do with Islam and you know, really took a heavy influence from um, what they saw kings and rulers and other parts of the world and those that came before them. Rafael:                                00:33:52 If you are sort of a, an untied this to my audience, if you are sort of a practicing brother or sister and you do want to look into Islamic history and you want to kind of a judgement for which you want you to look into this standard note, that's one of it. If you want to kind of standard through which to understand many of the rulers look at what the great polymer, uh, wrote about many of the governments of the time and the relationship between the ultimate and the government. [inaudible] was very critical. Uh, I only throw him a love was very, very critical of the Omi ed policy towards non Arab Muslims. Um, in my, Malik had a very fractured relationship with the, the government that even culminated in him, him being tortured. I think at some point, three out of the foyer, memes were locked in jail or tortured by rulers. Rafael:                                00:34:42 Right. So if you want to understand how these rulers generally operated in relation to the religion itself, all you need to do is look at the relationship between side and the receipt with the Turkish government. Yes. Some next level stuff that he did, like he got abandoned. You're exhausted and you know, the stuff they wrote in the process and got Gerald and like nor even just like back in those times, but even the, um, recent times they were secular rulers to the Kemalists editor split. The understanding though that, that what has often happened in the name of the Islamic Empire is very different from what the people who are most knowledgeable in terms of the religion would have preferred or what, what they were actually directly calling for. How does the sort of expansion of Islam as an empire compared to other empires directly? For example, people might look, I often used to draw comparisons, the Mongol Empire, which is also a really important example for Muslims because, uh, the Mongols with us kind of scorge of Islam who obviously sacked Baghdad, they killed more Muslims than I think have ever been killed by any other foreign army. A lot of people thought that the Mongols were even your, uh, your agenda. My George [inaudible] was so dramatic and terrible for the Muslims. Um, I don't think many of us would understand how bad it was. Uh, but then they converted to Islam. Three out of the four Mongo is converted to Islam. But yeah. In terms of the expansion and the influence that Islam was able to have on societies compared to say what the Byzantines were able to do, what assassinated Persians were able to do, how does it compare? Hassam:                             00:36:29 Um, well, you know, Ma, every, you know, empire can be a unit of study in itself. Right. And in, in your sort of, within that context, what was going on and, but then the time period during which that empire existed, what was going on? Um, I think in terms of military, um, or even non military, um, you know, just the spread of an empire's influence, um, Islam, uh, or the Islamic empire. Um, I think first of all, we should, uh, interrogate that term itself. What we mean by Islamic Empire because as you've heard us discussing many of these empires while Dever led by Muslims and, um, primarily, um, uh, you know, had Muslim populations, um, as a matter of policymaking. And when it come to some of the, uh, officiating, no empire business, um, it wasn't too much inspired by actual Islamic teachings, right? So we have particular empires such as the who may yet such as the basset such as the later on, you know, that started joke send the mum Luke's and um, the song gay and the Sokoto in West Africa and you know, more of a reds in, in Spain and in many parts of the world, the moguls in India, et cetera. Hassam:                             00:37:46 Right? So we have all of these different empires. Initially, if we're talking about the initial expansion of Islam and I guess during the Omega Dynasty when most of what we now consider the core Muslim lands were, you know, um, unified, uh, at least nominally under one leadership, you know, the, you may it leader who had his seat in Damascus, in Syria. I think, um, in terms of the expansion, there really is no, um, comparison, right? Um, there really is no comparison in terms of the expansion itself of how fast that expansion was other than, and again, we're talking about the movement and expansion of the Muslim armies here. And I think the one exception would be the Mongols. The Mongols are the only sort of comparable the Roman empire. While we do talk about how enormous it was and how influential it was and how many different parts of the world are touched. Hassam:                             00:38:48 Um, we have to look at the scale here. So when the Mongols were just looking at, um, you know, a few decades for most of the expansions in the early Muslim empire, but just looking at a few decades, right. And the Romans had expanded considerably. Um, but their expansion generally was more drawn out over time. So it took a lot of time for these expansions to, um, you know, the empire to expand and then maybe a rebellion, so cave in a little bit and expand further, et cetera. Um, but again, in terms of, um, cultural, when it comes to cultural influence, then we're looking at a different set of criteria. So in that sense, for example, even the Greeks, the Athenian Empire, right? And we have to remember that the people who introduced democracy where themselves and imperialist people, right? If Damien it was a city, but they expanded and they were an empire, they have all the characteristics, right? Hassam:                             00:39:42 Um, they were expansionist, um, they had a huge influence even though are in terms of what they controlled and how far their influence reach two different questions or influenced reach enormously far. Um, but what they controlled was actually not very much. So these, all of these different variables we can play around with. Um, you know, maybe we can come back a bit to the Mongo question in particular. Um, I think the difference was that there is no comparison. Obviously there's a comparison between the timescale and the sort of, uh, area over which the expansion occurred. But I think there's no comparison in the sort of brutality of the Mongo conquest. They were much more, um, from all of the historical sources. And that's also something worth interrogating because we paint the Mongols as sort of like these I, you know, including into Muslim community, but many people who are more or less familiar with history in general like this unparalleled, you know, sometimes like the only people, you know, oftentimes you'll see the Mongo as compared to our, like the Nazis or something. Hassam:                             00:40:50 Like these are the worst of the worst. Like how bad could it possibly get right. Um, but the Muslim conquest were not as disruptive. They were not as destructive. They were not as, um, not nearly as wild Lindt in terms of, um, just the amount of people, um, killed. And the amount of infrastructural damage caused as a Mongo conquest were. And I think there is that interesting question. Right? And then the Mongo conquest, we're further, so there was that aspect among was for much more violent. Um, and the other aspect is that the Mongols within a few generations, as you mentioned, wherever they had expanded to the assimilated into the local culture and customs and religion, et Cetera, three of the four Mongo cognates as you mentioned, embraced Islam. Um, and in, in China they embrace Buddhism, etc. So they sort of assimilate it locally. Hassam:                             00:41:46 Um, and so that's the two distinctions and that was, makes the early Muslim conquest really exceptional where the Muslims, yes, they did obviously take on a local sort of, um, you know, uh, cultures and things of that sort. But their essence, as we mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, um, the essential, um, values and practices of the people remained intact, um, as well as not having to be nearly as violent to achieve the same amount of expansion in a very similar time scale. So I think that's what really makes what the early Muslim conquest so exceptional even when compared to the Mongol conquest. Tanzim:                              00:42:26 Is it true that a halo people say these spy, it's like three quarters of the world's population are descendants of gangs, car recorders. I don't think it's true or something like that. Why isn't there like a stat like that? I don't know how much the truth is it cause my mom's made a name, he's cons. So I'm just thinking am I descendant of gangs Connersville on because I've got explained to, Hassam:                             00:42:51 there's a lot of fake cons out there. Um, I often have a conversation with people, um, the, by stewing people of, of, you know, um, Northwestern Pakistan and Afghanistan, right. And, and the name con is very common amongst them. Um, and they've allowed this very, you know, aggravated conversation about real cons and fake cons, et Cetera, as I need to be in that conversation. But, um, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. Um, you hear different is definitely okay. Let me tell you, this is definitely not three quarters. Um, I can, I'm pretty sure I'm not like, you know, very familiar with the field of genealogy and whatever science has attached to it, but I'm pretty sure it's not that. Um, but, um, you know, and, and descended from gangas con personally, um, it's, it's, it's a trope, right? And whenever you encounter all of these tropes that are almost accepted as a fact, we have to be really careful about how we talk about it. Hassam:                             00:43:51 Even in a casual conversation. It just, again, as part of this picture of how horrible the Mongols were, how horrible Kangaskhan personally was, gang has gone as at whatever crimes he may have initiated during his leadership. Kangaskhan has a very interesting life story and if you actually read about his life and read about his interests and, um, you know, tried to get a more historical understanding of his personality. He's a very interesting person. He wasn't just some brute from out of nowhere. And I think especially in the Muslim community, we have to recognize this, right? And a lot of what happened to Muslims during the Mongo conquest, the Muslims have to take their fair share of the blame, not just what they were doing, you know, like centuries before and how they were declining and they weren't prepared for the Mongo conquest. But even the decisions taken on the spot where such sometimes you read about it and it's baffling how blind and arrogant could you be to just brush off this threat to, despite knowing that, you know, the city next door had just been completely ruined and raised by this army. Hassam:                             00:45:00 And then they come to your door and you decide to talk up to them and, and you know, be arrogant and not only get yourself, you know, basically finished, but also the innocent people who, whose leader you were, who you were sort of representing their right. So, um, I think again, my main focus, like I think every point it becomes an idiotic to end off every sort of point I make with, it's more complicated than we want it to seem, including the life of Ganglias Con, the Mongo conquest, and literally any topic, right? So whatever topic, people are most interested in it, pick it up, but then make sure you're not just scratching the surface, tried to go a bit deeper and you'll find that there's much more to learn and appreciate. Rafael:                                00:45:40 Yeah. I think quite simply as opposed to complex. I think that the beheading of the Mongol ambassadors by the Horace Smith, um, was it the suit? Yeah, the horrors. Mid Emmy was probably one of the most significant events in Islamic history. It was one of the worst decisions is basically reversing the last 500 years. So basically the Mongol ambassadors came to the Muslim empire and um, it was quite a friendly kind of invitation, like, oh, hey, you know, where the Mongols were in charge of China now. Yeah. I would have just coming up into your Facebook sup, you know? Yeah. In the DM. Hassam:                             00:46:19             I mean, it was an invitation for, Rafael:                                00:46:20 yeah, it was then the corpsmen. Yeah, Hassam:                             00:46:23 hi. Rafael:                                00:46:27 Yeah. And the Mongols invaded Persia and just completely just destroyed the place and the civilization there. Well, it didn't really recover too. You know, it's pre Mongol, Gloria, and they say that often when you talk about the Islamic Golden Age, a lot of people trace the decline of the Islamic golden age to the Mongol invasions. Though I don't necessarily agree with that personally, but it's one point that, you know, has been mentioned. But Tanzim:                              00:46:55 in terms of just unbusy with talking about more about expansions and stuff, I wanted to kind of, uh, direct the conversation to sort of the early civil wars in Islam that existed. So they sort of were pivotal, you know, it's very pivotal because even it's the reason why we have sectarian divide, right? The Sunni and Shia divide and are most specifically, I just wanted to hone in on, you know, the events of early Rodney on who and warrior rather than on who. So would you be able to, you know, we, so the, the narrative, there's one narrative Twitter, right? So the narrative is that, you know, I'm more, we are already on who was like terrible person and you know, just, I went against the Ali Rodney on, on who and um, divisions happened. And that's why I think the, she is cases, right. The SUNY case is more like was taking a step back because you know, while we all wrote down on who had his own issues, he had an [inaudible] who had his own issues he had. Tanzim:                              00:47:55 And a lot of the scholars say that, you know, you get rewarded for your each to hat even though if it's from a sincere place, that sort of stuff. But um, that's more coming from the scholars. Right. So those are the opinions of our scholars and we sort of taken on board. But in terms of a historical sort of point of view, would you be able to shed some light on that event in particular because it would be interesting to gather thoughts and even how you would come to conclusions or how scholars would come to conclusions about in regards to what makes like what exactly happened? Cause I heard the sources aren't the strongest either. I think that this is probably the most complex of things that you're going to have to answer. I'd love love to, yeah, just even scratch the surface would be really good. Hassam:                             00:48:39 Right. So, um, I'll start off with a quick story. Um, I had a new professor when I was doing my undergraduate degree. This was an introduction to Islamic history, sort of introductory class. And I had a professor and, um, he was teaching this class and he was a Muslim. Right. Um, and, uh, you know, there's obviously non Muslims in their class. There's there, so neon Sheol, Muslims in the class. Um, it's, it's sort of a, a mix as it is in universities. And, um, he was a, you know, because he was discussing early Islamic history, he had to at least do one, uh, you know, um, lecture on this particular, uh, topic of this early Islamic history. And, you know, um, it's, it's thrown around in the room. The bomb was not thrown around because it was very introductory and, and we'd be surprised, you know, a lot of people, um, uh, you know, we see these discussions on Twitter and other places and very heated discussion. Hassam:                             00:49:39 And I'll admit to you, when I was, uh, you know, I have close a, she are friends and grew up together. And when we were very young, we used to like, you know, even as teenagers like go back and forth with these very, in hindsight, it's like that was the biggest waste of my time. And so nonsensical because I didn't know what I was talking about and neither did he. And yet we were having these heated conversations, right? Um, and we're still good friends, but I think so with the professor at the end of the class and during the class, you could notice and it was visibly others looking around. He was confusing some of the people in the class, he was sweating, right? And it wasn't a climate controlled room and everything like that, but he is sweating. And at the end of the class when it's done, he's actually wiping his brow and wiping the sweat off his face. And he said, you know, you guys might noticed, Speaker 5:                         00:50:28 um, this is not just as a Muslim, regardless of, you know, there's this idea that historians have to be objective. But this word objectivity is so problematic because nobody is ever truly objective. We all have certain values and beliefs and principles that we stand by, regardless of what the information presented to us is. Right. Um, we will have to try to be fair, but whether we can actually ever really be objective, whether we try or not is a separate question altogether. And he said, you know, for me, I'm an academic, I taught you from an academic perspective, but this is secret history. This isn't just history for me. This is sacred history. And for many of the people in this room, this is sacred history, right? So when we're talking about this particular, um, question, and I think the reason why there's so much heated debate on it and why passions are so high whenever this topic comes up, um, like you said is probably the most difficult question I'll have to ask, you know, discussing this podcast. Hassam:                         00:51:28 Um, it is because it's sacred history for all of the different, um, sort of sides, for lack of a better term, who were involved right now coming to the actual question from a historical perspective. Um, I think in this case, um, most historians, whether they are, um, you know, more traditionally, uh, trained like Islamic scholars who specialize in history, like for example, in Canada, here we have, uh, [inaudible], um, who did a very, I thought it was an incredible series of lectures, you know, nearly I think eight hours of lectures just on this particular topic on the question that we asked. So we have those scholars and then obviously the academic historian, some of them are Muslim, some of them are non Muslim. So you have these three broad categories, um, more or less, they all go back to the same sort of sources, right? They'll all go back to the, um, such as a 30 hot tub buddy and some of these more, uh, recognize and authoritative sources of early Islamic history, right? Hassam:                         00:52:37 Like [inaudible], Wendy high some of these books. And so you'll find that the narrative itself of the events, what event led to what and what happened when et Cetera is very similar across the three categories, right? Um, but when it comes to interpretation and explanation, that's when the differences occur, right? Between the three groups. So how do you, this particular event happen? How do you interpret it? Right? And obviously for the Islamic scholars, the interpretation focuses on how do you, uh, take the relevant lessons, the moral lessons, right. Something you can apply to your own life from this particular situation. So there's obviously an entire to go into Hassam:                             00:53:26 their, you know, the battle of, uh, I mean starts, I think that we took precursor to that starts right during the life of the profits of the law. We send them. What was the relationship of the profit with these particular people involved, such as, um, Emam earlier the allot one who was actually seeding are out of the allot wine. What was the particular relationship, um, as well as the other personalities such as Amato, even yesod let the last one for example. Um, and moving forward, how did you know the entire is sort of narrative about what happened at [inaudible] immediately after the profits of the law, whether he was an passed away and what happened after that? Um, during the, you know, uh, the NAFA of a Aboubacar and Omar or the Allahu one whom, um, and say, you know, it's man and so you'd the one home, right? Hassam:                             00:54:15 It's a very, very broad topic, but we have to trace the history that far back. So when we get to the [inaudible] of, you know, a mom and you know, not your loved one who, um, what has to be established is that we are not in a position nor should be, want to be in a position to make judgements about people. Right? I think for Muslims, and I'm, I'm assuming I'm speaking particularly to a Muslim audience, whether they are Shia or whether they are Sunni, because I have had those heated debates with my friends as I mentioned. I think what the key thing to keep in mind is that could take, do you feel relevant lessons from them, right? True. Take them from trusted, nuanced scholars. And this is something that each of us has to make our decision about and we can't claim to be ignorant, right? Hassam:                             00:55:06 We can tell when a person is really pushing the narrative. None of us are, you know, that stupid that we will it co or I at least I hope nobody considers themselves as stupid because I would assume nobody is, um, that they're just going to take what somebody tells them, even from the member and not sort of interrogate it and try to understand it and try to implement it into their own lives. So whether you are so new, whether you are shy, engaged with the info information that you are being exposed to, um, from the traditional scholars, um, and work with that and keep a focus on what you know, lessons you are going to draw. Because for, you know, for historians it's a different question about providing clarity, right? And who was, who was right, per se, right? For Muslims, I think it's a slightly different question because we know that justice, um, has already been served that allows justice. There's no escape from it. So whoever deserve whatever they deserved a level, take care of it, right? Um, if that process is not already underway, allow, are, and them, regardless of the individual we're thinking about here. Right? So for us it's more about the lessons we can draw and how we can apply them. If the only lesson you can draw is that you to hate a particular Speaker 5:                         00:56:24 group, you have to hate a particular person. You have to spend the rest of your life cursing this person and cursing that person or only defending this person and only singing praises about this person without actually recognizing that they were a human being and human beings can make mistakes and we should learn from them. Then if those are the only sort of set of things that we can draw from, then the problem isn't in the history, then the problem is in our interpretation at that point, I think there's no point for us to go into further questions of what happened because we are not using that history for the right purpose anyways. Right? And oftentimes you'll find historians, uh, sometimes jump on that facts. So there's one book I will call out by Leslie Hazel or particular historian where it's written in a very, um, in narrative form, right? Speaker 5:                         00:57:10 It's written as like a, this epic story. And in fact, she, the subtitle of the book is the epic story of [inaudible] Split. Anytime a historian sort of uses epic in their title, that should be a sort of alarm bell because they're jumping off of this idea that people are very passionate. The people who are going to read this on both sides of the debate or multiple sides of the discussion are very passionate about this topic and they're already coming with passion. So let me try to play with that, pull some strings, make it epic and write in a particular way that this happened and that happened and this unbelievable thing happened. I think we should stay clear of all of that. Um, for that sacred history. Rely on your traditional Islamic scholars unless you actually want to pursue it academically, that's a different conversation for the average person, I think that's not really a priority. Speaker 5:                         00:58:02 Um, and if there's a priority, like please get in touch with me or historians you trust and have that conversation with us. Um, but I feel like for the average Muslim who is just seeking clarity, look at your scholars, look at what other scholars have said, compare contrast, do your due diligence and uh, pray to a lot to give you clarity about our secret history so we can learn their relevant lessons and then trust that a law has already, uh, established justice in the cases of the people who have already passed away and we can move forward seeing what is best for our particular context. What does, whether I'm Shira, whether I'm SUNY, what does the Muslim community as a whole and what does the world as a whole need from me today? What are the lessons I can draw from this history that I will apply to that situation? And if there are no sort of positive, inspiring, um, constructive lessons, then uh, there's really no further conversation, at least from where I stand to be hot in this, uh, situation. Yeah. Yeah. Rafael:                                00:59:02 Fair enough. I think that's a good starting point for people to understand. The kind of approach that we should have to these topics that you mentioned, the difference between Western, how there's western commentators and western historians, and then there's also Muslim commentators and Muslim historians. And I think that's something that especially you mentioned specific of kind of, um, how, how would you describe it? Trying to create a fitness almost or a drama out of Islamic history to portray it as this, you know, this glorious Hollywood film. But I want to ask you about western historians and their view and their, their portrayal of Islam. Uh, I've done a little bit of work on studying orientalist readings of Islamic history, uh, particularly, and I wonder what your thoughts were. I mean, we, we see things written about the Ottomans. Um, for example, a lot is emphasized on their, on their persecution of minorities. Rafael:                                00:59:57 We see a lot written in India and the subcontinent, particularly about emperors, like, uh, old Rung Zip. And then we, this goes all the way back throughout Islamic history, uh, to, as you mentioned, the Muslim civil wars. And even back further to the Caliphs. So do you think that there's a kind of agenda by some western historians to, uh, create these kinds of negative images to render these negative images of Muslim, uh, figures throughout history and Islamic history? Um, do you think it's a concerted effort? Do you think that it's, why is this the case? I guess, why, why have, have these renderings come out of the West? Do you think the Muslims are kind of trying to paper over the cracks of their own floors, for example? Um, do you think that the Ottomans were as a lot of western scholars claim, um, particularly harsh and discriminatory? Or is that, yeah, just an orientalist kind of portrayal and, and the same goes for all wrongs urban. And the kind of a point you mentioned before about the epic schism. Speaker 5:                         01:01:05 Right. Um, so this is a very, very important question. So I'm glad we came to it. Um, I think, uh, again there's a lot of variation, right? So I think generally, um, historians who are actively involved in a project to sort of, um, display and essentially lies Islam and then display it in a very, um, uh, you know, a narrow sort of minded way. Um, there are certainly historians and people, you know, pseudo historian than people who claim to do that. Um, or sorry, people who, um, do do that. Um, and they make their claim in the fact that, um, they are trained historians, et Cetera. Right? So a good example is, um, Daniel Pipes, right? And I'm not sure if many people in Australia or other parts have heard of Daniel pipes. Um, he is one of the world's leading Islamophobes. I mean that the things this person publishes are, um, really like, like atrocious content. Speaker 5:                         01:02:09 And you would wonder why anyone would take him seriously. But if someone were not exposed to what

Tanzim sits down to expose Boys In The Cave.   https://www.launchgood.com/project/boys_in_the_cave_podcast#!/   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DCqxe8F2Fc

Programda, ekonomideki büyük durgunluk tartışıldı.

On this week's episode, we talk to Austrailian podcasters, Tanzim and Joshua about their show called Boys in the Cave.     Support our sponsors! ============== MyWassiyah.com Receive an exclusive discount by using the link below to sign up with MyWassiyah.com http://6mywassiyah.refr.cc/themadmamluks Make sure income from investments is halal!  https://www.wahedinvest.com/ ============== E-mail us your comments, feedback and questions at: TheMadMamluks@gmail.com Follow us on Twitter: @TheMadMamluks Like us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/themadmamluks View pictures of our guests and studio on Instagram: TheMadMamluks *NEW* Subscribe to watch us Live on YouTube: www.youtube.com/themadmamluks

How we look at the world can be broken into power dynamics. We talk with Yassir Morsi about racism, power structures, feminism and oppression. Yassir Morsi's main area of research is the critical analysis of contemporary racism and Islamophobia. He is a regular contributor to The Guardian. He was a lecturer at RMIT University in Melbourne and now he is currently lecturer at La Trobe University. His recent book which he released is titled 'Radical Skin, Moderate Masks'. Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: boysinthecave@gmail.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes! Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/ Instagram – @boysinthecave   Donate to our patreon account:   patreon.com/boysinthecave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yassir Morsi's Online Visibility: Twitter: @YMorsi -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shownotes   [2:00] Introduction of Yassir Morsi   [2:48] Boys In The Caves’ experience with Yassir   [3:30] Muslim community adapting and having conversations   [5:00] Tanzim’s experience with Yassir Morsi’s ideas on Samarqand Facebook page and being exposed to different ideas when getting into the Deen.   [8:15] Why do you think racism is such a central issue for muslims to be aware of and understand thoroughly?   [11:45] In Yassir’s book ‘Radical Skin, Moderate Masks’ the terms ‘apollonian’ and the ‘dionysian’, the two different elements to how we see racism, are discussed.   Dionysian is the brute force of the europeans subjugating the rest of the world, and apollonian is how they present themselves as beyond racism now where all it is good, when it's dyonisian violence that created the societies we live in today.   [14:30] Racism is modernity. The condition of the world is racism.   [15:50] How does racism trickle down to Muslims? Is that what is called Islamophobia?   [17:00] Why do you think race is given such importance to uncover the oppressions of the world? E.g. people may say economic reasons may the reason for certain oppressions in the world.   [19:35] In regards to power isn’t expansionist Jihad by Muslims be the same as colonialism by the Europeans?   [22:20] Some people try to make all violence throughout history the same e.g. comparing Ottomans to the Europeans who colonised lands.   [24:25] People feeding into the identity politics.   [26:20] Dynamics of violence in a Muslim context.   [30:00] The effects of poorly run countries leading to worser conditions for people.   [31:30] Being short sighted and blaming countries current climate on themselves rather than looking at the structures that were put in place.   [36:30] Joe Rogan talking about inbreeding amongst Muslims being the reason for ISIS coming about.   [37:30] Muslims falling back on “racism not being part of the religion”   [42:00] Making statements about how Islam gave rights to women but not actually doing anything in practice to live up to that statement.   [51:10] To what extent can Muslim brothers use theories external to Islam?   [56:20] Just because concepts stem from the West does it mean we can’t use it in Islam?   [1:00:00] Double standards when it comes to policing Brothers and then the sisters in Islam   [1:03:57] Differentiating people who speak about feminism like Daniel H with people like Yassir Morsi.   [1:14:50] We hear all these terms such as conservative muslim, fundamental muslim, or moderate/good muslim used by non-muslims to frame us. What are the implications of these terms - like we know we shouldn’t use them, because that’s how they define us.   [1:16:57] If you could hang out with three people, who influenced you during your studies, in a Cave who would it be?

It seems like political events cause huge divisions in the ummah. So we talk with Shaykh Omar El-Banna about how we can reconcile political events. He also clarifies the whole takfir incident that happened with him.     Shaykh Omar completed a Bachelor of Science majoring in Engineering, attained in ijazah in teaching the Quran, studied for 8 years under shaykhs in Egypt, and also graduated from Al-Azhar University in Cairo from the Faculty of Shariah, Islamic Jurisprudence.   Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: boysinthecave@gmail.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Follow us on:   Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   Shaykh Omar's Online Visibility:   https://www.facebook.com/Sheikh-Omar-El-Banna-212684098797820/    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shownotes   [1:00] Intro to Shaykh Omar's life   [4:00] Shaykh Omar taking Al-Azhar University to court   [8:55] The nature of Al-Azhar in regards to be controlled by the government   [12:00] How should Muslims react to Muslim political divisions?   [17:00] How do we reconcile groups with ideological difference like HT and Muslim Brotherhood?   [22:00] Does finding the Haqq in regards to politics boil down to sincerity?   [27:00] Does each group have a “portion” of the straight path?   [28:00] Tanzim mentions an example of cultish behaviour due to being affiliated with a certain group.   [32:00] Can cultish behaviour be excused on the basis of “taqlid”?   [34:00] What should our actions be when we witness injustice by the government? Should we stay quiet and obey the state or rebel?   [35:25] Are scholars perhaps justifying injustice by the government?   [40:00] Tanzim witnessing the different Islamic groups as a youth and the different ideologies that they bring to the table.   [45:00] Describing the incident where a person takfired Shaykh Omar   [56:00] If you had to hang with 3 people from history who would it be?    

Your passion for the faith is important when it comes to dawah. So we talk with the beloved Kamal Saleh in regards to his journey in the dawah scene via content creation, how he "blew up" online, the science behind making videos and also his journey with OnePath Network.   Kamal Saleh is a speaker, spoken word poet, director, editor and content creator for Talk Islam & OnePath Network.   Hosts : Tanzim & Josh   Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: boysinthecave@gmail.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave   Twitter - @boysinthecave   Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kamal Saleh’s online presence https://www.facebook.com/kamalsalehkamal   Talk Islam https://www.facebook.com/talkislam/   OnePath Network https://www.facebook.com/OnePathNetwork/   Link for ‘Last Chance’ movie trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brt6H9MtD2c   ‘Meaning of Life’ video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d16CpWp-ok   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   [2:15] Tazim and Josh’s initial encounter with One Path. Tanzim falls off a cliff in dramatic fashion.   [5.55] Introduction to Kamal Saleh.   [8:30] Reasons for wanting to do media, MUMSA’s footprint and Kamal’s journey to Islamic content production.   [13:55] The benefits of the Muslim society on the individual.   [17:25] Kamal’s Youtube videos and the reception to his content.   [22:00] ‘Meaning of Life’- how and why Kamal did it and the impacts it has had on people.   [30:10] Jaclyn Glenn’s response to Kamal’s video and counter-responses and etiquette in Dawah.   [36:45] Kamal’s journey to America and his views on America.   [39:40] Keeping the ego in check with the newly found fame and doing things for the sake of Allah.   [45:25] Kamal on joining One Path and his current activities with One Path.   [47:30] Objectives of One Path and engaging with the audience and giving the audience something of benefit to take home.   [52:15] The impressive setup of One Path’s studio.   [54:10] Kamal discusses One Path’s movie, “The Last Chance”.   [1:01:55] On the history of Youtube user ‘lebo2196’.   [1:05:45] The importance of having a scholar/shaykh over your shoulder when you do what you are passionate at for the Ummah  

The Boys were chilling before their episode recording with Ustadh Muhammad al-Bizry so they decided to catchup on what was happening. But as per usual it turns into a dnm.   Tanzim talks about his adventures at cricket training, whilst somehow also talking about Islam in the process and Aquib talks about his hiking experiences whilst also sprinkling a dose of his insights of Islam, society and people's behaviour in general.    Hosts: Aquib and Tanzim   SPECIAL WEEK WITH TWO BACK TO BACK EPISODES RELEASED ON THE SAME DAY!   TUNE INTO OUR NEXT EPISODE WITH OUR BELOVED USTADH MUHAMMAD AL-BIZRY (WILL BE RELEASED IN A FEW HOURS).   Send us your comments, feedback, and questions at boysinthecave@gmail.com or through Facebook, and please leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/   Instagram – @boysinthecave   Twitter - @boysinthecave  

We talk to Mazen about the start-up/entrepreneurial scene with some insights into the attitudes and challenges that entrepreneurs face, and how Islam enables us to be entrepreneurs. Maz is Apple mobile application developer, founder of Decoda Apps, and a YouTube content creator. Hosts: Aquib and Tanzim   Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at boysinthecave@gmail.com or through our Facebook page, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/ Instagram – @boysinthecave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mazen’s Online Visibility All social media: @mazfromdecoda Software start-up: https://decodaapps.com/ Recently, famously known for: http://www.afr.com/technology/mobiles-and-tablets/apple/iphone-x-gets-apple-fans-queuing-again-as-it-goes-on-sale-in-australia-20171102-gzdzqv -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shownotes [1:22] – Introductions [4:07] – Delving into Maz’s inspirations and motivations [14:19] – Episode premise, and exploring some attitudes of entrepreneurship [17:15] – Channelling one’s passion into their pursuits [23:24] – Exploring the attitudes surrounding successful start-up pursuits [24:52] – Engaging in entrepreneurship within the spirit of Islam [34:35] – Exploring the feasibility of entrepreneurship for people [42:40] – Returning to Maz’s experience and projects [58:17] – Some advice for those interested in pursuing entrepreneurship

In this episode, we discuss with Dr. Ghilan a variety of topics within a narrow scope of theology such as philosophy, modern science, existence of God, materialism, and empiricism Dr. Ghilan is a neuroscientist, Islamic lecturer, YouTuber, and podcaster. Hosts: Aquib, Joshua, and Tanzim   Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: boysinthecave@gmail.com, and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/ Instagram – @boysinthecave   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr Ghilan’s Online Visibility: AndalusOnline.org - Join the Andalus Book Club! Search for "Mohamed Ghilan" in iTunes and subscribe to his podcast. Twitter: @MohamedGhilan   Dr. Mohamed Ghilan is a Canadian Muslim originally born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia to parents from Sudanese and Yemeni backgrounds. He attended high school after immigrating to Canada in Vancouver, British Columbia. Eventually, Mohamed moved to Victoria where he obtained a B.Sc. with a major in microbiology (honours) and a minor in business administration. In 2007, Mohamed began his full-time studies in the Islamic Tradition after having made connections with several Muslim scholars. He has been consistently travelling over the past years to spend intensive extended periods studying various aspects of the Islamic sciences relating to Theology and Creed, Jurisprudence, Hadith, Foundational Principles (Usool), Arabic, Poetry, spiritual purification, and Qur’anic sciences. Mohamed has previously given lectures on the biography of the Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him, Fundamentalism in Islam, Islam and science, the message of Islam, Jesus in the Qur’an, in addition to others. He has also taught an introductory course on Islamic Jurisprudence according to the Maliki School as well as an introductory course on Islamic Theology (‘Aqeedah). In 2015, Mohamed earned a PhD in neuroscience at the University of Victoria, where he studied synaptic plasticity in Huntington’s disease, as well as the effects and molecular mechanisms of stress on the brain in Fragile X syndrome. He hopes his research can eventually be used to develop new therapies can be used to assist individual with movement disorders or intellectual disabilities. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shownotes [4:34] – Why is Dr. Ghilan pursuing medicine after completing a PhD? [8:05] – Discussion between Peter Slezak and Mohamed Ghilan at UNSW (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhNdIIJ5o0w) [8:26] – Observations on sectarianism [10:24] – Ayats 31 and 32 of Surah Ar-Rum (https://quran.com/30/31-32) [12:31] – Understanding the ideologies of Atheists [15:55] – Hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud 4833; Sahih (authentic) grade according to An-Nawawi [24:08] – Ayat 41 of Surah Ar-Rum (https://quran.com/30/41) [25:12] – Touching on modernism, specifically utilitarianism and capitalism [28:11] – Battle of Hunayn [29:10] - Ayat 32 of Surah Al-A’raf (https://quran.com/7/32) [31:10] – Exploration of science as a framework [38:51] – Ayat 28 of Surah An-Najm (https://quran.com/7/32) [54:12] – Ayat 43 of Surah Al-Furqan (https://quran.com/25/43) [54:36] – Asch conformity experiment [55:55] – Ayats 31-33 of Surah Saba (https://quran.com/34/31-33) [57:52] – Exploration of philosophy, and how to engage with the themes of modernism as Muslims [1:00:32] – Hadith from Sunan At-Tirmidhi 2687; Hasan (fair) grade according to As-Suyuti [1:00:52] – Islam in Liberalism by Joseph Massad [1:14:51] – Hadith from Sahih Al-Albani, Book 14, Hadith 273 [1:16:12] – How do we reconcile modernism with Islam as a means of having a standard of truth?

We introduce ourselves and talk about our motivations and plans for this project. Hosts: Aquib, Joshua, and Tanzim   Email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: boysinthecave@gmail.com   Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/ Instagram – @boysinthecave   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shownotes [4:14] – Introductions [8:25] – Tasfir of Surah al-Kahf (Sayyid Qutb, In the Shade of the Qur'an, Volume 11) [11:17] – Personal Motivations [15:25] – Ayat 56 of Surah al-Kahf (https://quran.com/18/56) [20:52] – Why you should be listening to us? [21:22] – Yasir Qadhi Seerah Episode 100 (http://arqadhi.blogspot.com.au/2015/10/100-farewell-hajj.html) [29:19] – What we are excited about with this project