Navigating Major Programmes

How do we build innovation before we begin to build infrastructure? When it comes to planning and launching major infrastructure projects, rushing to the construction phase too quickly has proven disadvantages. Navigating Major Programmes takes it down to the studs with Teresa Gonzalez Rico, the London-based Associate Director of AtkinsRéalis. She joins Riccardo to talk about innovation and development as a safeguard for stability while those projects are still just ideas.Teresa was a part of the early stages of the UK's Catapult Network, a government-funded initiative that supports innovation across high-growth sectors. Through real-world case studies and insights from her experience leading cross-sector collaborations, she expounds on the wide-ranging benefits of gathering diverse players—startups, researchers, educational institutions, and big tech—to test-run solutions to complex problems, at scale, right from the start. She and Riccardo discuss striking a balance between human-centred and commercial gain, and they explore the impact funding models have on success and public perception. Teresa also dives into the industry's need for smart digitization to address the messy realities of major infrastructure projects.Key TakeawaysHow projects combining disparate interests deliver widespread research and development benefits;The importance of effectively implementing and scaling up with new technologies;Why requiring publicly funded organizations to raise capital can send mixed messages;Digitization across the full life-cycle of built environment projects;The innovative mission of the Catapult Network in the UK.Quote:“I ​think ​one ​interesting ​aspect ​of ​the ​catapult ​network ​is that they were ​set ​up ​as ​not ​for ​profit ​private ​companies. ​Their ​commercial ​model ​is ​that ​they ​receive  ​funding ​from ​that ​core ​funding, ​but ​then ​they ​would ​have ​to ​supplement ​that ​funding. So ​actually ​in ​some ​way, ​while ​there ​is ​a ​lot ​of ​activity ​that ​is ​powered ​through ​that core ​funding ​coming ​from ​the ​government, ​there ​is ​also ​a ​big ​drive ​to ​find ​opportunities ​and ​find partners ​and other to ​collaborate ​with ​and ​draw ​in ​investment.” - Teresa Gonzalez RicoThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/Follow Teresa Gonzales Rico on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresagr/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

The federal government recently announced the Major Projects Office and Build Canada Homes agencies designed to administer funds and accelerate infrastructure—but will they streamline or weigh down progress with bureaucracy? Riccardo, Melissa Di Marco, and David Ho pull up chairs to a roundtable discussion of this timely and complex topic. In this episode of Uncharted Conversations, they explore the often default solution of agency development when issues arise and whether those at the helm are genuinely equipped to solve these particular problems. Questions of risk aversion and fragmented decision-making prompt skepticism from both private infrastructure bodies and Canadian citizens. The three seasoned experts unpack the structural and political realities that influence how agencies perform, reflecting on past examples, and consider whether the present country-wide urgency might push leaders to act differently this time.The conversation poses an essential question: Are these agencies being created to lead, or just to manage? Infrastructure in Canada today faces overlapping jurisdictions, unclear mandates, and high public expectation. Success will depend on more than just good intentions—it will require clarity of purpose, empowered leadership, and swift execution within a narrowing window of opportunity.Key TakeawaysThe challenge of clearly defining what problem an agency is meant to solve;How funding concerns can block and distract from forward progress;The sometimes murky relationship between provincial and federal in major programme delivery;The risk of adding bureaucracy instead of leadership in moments of urgency;The opportunity for optimism in the face of Canada's infrastructure crisis.Quote:“I think if somebody tried to create a new version of a provincial infrastructure agency today [like Infrastructure Ontario], they would be burdened with expectations of fixing almost everything, and I think might be quite unfair.” -David HoThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Follow David Ho: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidtho-ontario/Follow Melissa Di Marco: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-di-marco/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What impact has the AI evolution had on the role of the project controller? Project controls is a lesser-known but essential component in the delivery of any large infrastructure venture. In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo brings in Dale Foong, a seasoned specialist in the digital side of project controls and PMO leadership. Dale reframes this multifaceted career path as equivalent to a rally co-driver or golf caddy—someone to guide the project leader through inevitable complexity. Success calls for a combination of risk interpretation, blind spot highlighting, and dynamic decision-making.Dale and Riccardo's conversation unpacks how AI and advanced integrated data systems are reshaping what's possible in major programmes. Despite this constant advancement, Dale is confident that the ability to tell the story behind the data will always protect the human side of project controls. He champions a future where innovation is embraced, not feared— where those who can harness new tools while keeping their communication skills sharp will lead the way.Key TakeawaysWhy “project controller” might be the wrong name for this information management role;Some of the newest AI-based technologies transforming the project controller toolbox;How to tackle the issues of using a linear interaction tool to map a complex major program;The most vital skill required by a project controller, regardless of tech advancements;The cognitive pitfalls of mindlessly engaging with LLMs.Quote: 20:13-21:20Pull quote options:“We know we deliver far more complex projects than we'd like and we know there's many different ways to deliver those projects. So my challenge to that way of thinking is, why do we only have one version of how to deliver that project?” (20:25)“In the short term, or even the medium term, AI will not replace the project controller. Project controllers who know how to use AI and know what technology is out there will replace those that don't.” (41:15)The most important skill that I think is required for the project controller…regardless of technology, AI, or any tools advancing, is still going to remain communication skills.” (24:18)The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Follow Dale Foong: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dale-foong/Listen to the Project Chatter podcast: https://projectchatterpodcast.com/Listen to the GenAI podcast: www.youtube.com/@GenAIPodcastLearn more about Movar: https://movar.group/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

Where can your career take you when you're open to learning more? In this episode of the Master Builders series, Annie Ropar—the CFO of the UK's National Wealth Fund (formerly the UK Infrastructure Bank)—joins Riccardo and Shormila for a candid conversation about lifelong learning, leadership humility, and how a start in finance has evolved into purpose-driven management in infrastructure. Annie's dedication to curiosity and building great teams is a throughline in her career. A transition from the private to public sector reshaped Annie's understanding of success—shifting from rapid execution to long-term and varied stakeholder impact. She outlines their different approaches, with the latter's focus extending beyond amassing revenue to providing lasting social value. With humour and realism, Annie speaks to numerous industry motifs, including the senior-level gender gap and the demands of executive leadership. Her perspective highlights why today's major programmes demand a special kind of master builder—one who can leave their ego behind and lift the whole team forward.Key TakeawaysWhy never assuming you're the smartest person in the room is an essential leadership skillHow a recalibration of expectations plays into the transition between sectors and industries;The caring imperative of leadership, and the challenge of setting boundaries;Why joining boards isn't the only possibility for women looking to advance their careers;The unexpected innovation of Canada's infrastructure industry.Quote options:“I ​really ​have ​a ​fundamental ​care ​for ​not ​just ​my ​box ​or ​whether ​it's ​a ​small ​box, ​big ​box, ​but ​also ​about ​the ​people ​around ​me, ​even ​if ​they ​work ​in ​different ​parts ​of ​the ​business, ​et ​cetera. ​I ​always ​look ​at ​it ​from ​the ​perspective ​of, ​I'm ​an ​owner ​of ​this ​organization. ​I ​may ​not ​have ​shares, ​I ​may ​not ​have ​a ​stock ​certificate, ​but ​I ​am ​responsible ​for ​everyone ​in ​this ​organization.” - Annie RoparThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Follow Shormila Chatterjee: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shormilac/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Follow Annie Roper: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annie-ropar-95554b4/    Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What is the role of the sponsor in planning and delivering major projects? When it comes to public transit infrastructure, on time and on budget is only part of the story. In this episode of Navigating Major Programs, Andrew Antinucci and Carol Deveney—seasoned sponsorship and governance experts at CPCS—join Riccardo in a layered and comprehensive conversation exploring what it really means to ensure not just completion but the benefits of every major programme.The three self-professed transit geeks unpack this evolving role in Canada. The sponsor is critical, but often misunderstood, responsible not just for justifying cost and schedule, but for identifying and defending monetizing and non-monetizing benefits throughout a project's lifecycle—for the communities the build will employ, serve, and exist within. From the business case to resisting scope adjustments to navigating multi-layer funding in a changing political climate, project sponsors are quietly shaping the success of the country's most ambitious projects.Key TakeawaysWhy the project sponsor is a champion of public benefits, not just project outputs;The importance of post-evaluation for recognizing the short- and long-term benefits;What Canada can learn from the UK's more mature sponsorship practices;How clear accountability reduces risk and speeds decision-making;What it takes to support scope, governance, and expectations at every phase.Quote:“When ​we're ​spending ​public ​money, ​I ​think ​all ​of ​us ​would ​agree ​we've ​got ​an ​absolute ​duty ​to ​say ​that ​we're ​spending ​it ​wisely ​because ​these ​things ​are ​expensive. ​There's ​never ​enough ​money ​to ​go ​around, ​not ​just ​our ​sector, ​but ​all ​the ​sectors. ​So ​the ​focus ​on ​cost ​should ​always ​be ​there. ​But, ​I ​think ​benefits ​are ​more ​difficult ​to ​explain ​because ​a ​lot ​of ​the ​time, ​especially ​in ​major ​projects, ​people ​get ​money, ​they ​understand ​what ​cost ​is, ​but ​the ​benefits ​are ​sometimes ​more ​nuanced.” - Carol DeveneyThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Find out more about Andrew Antinucci: https://cpcs.ca/team/andrew-antinucci/Find out more about Carol Deveney: https://cpcs.ca/team/carol-deveney/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What does our society—and our country—need to know to embrace nuclear as the answer to the global energy situation? Riccardo sits down with the SVP of CANDU Energy at AtkinsRéalis, Julianne den Decker, in this intricate and important conversation. Julianne is the perfect spokesperson to clarify the history and impressive comeback of nuclear energy, a once-maligned and feared innovation. A lifelong advocate for the science, safety, and societal benefits of this baseline power source, Julianne explains with detail and passion how the decarbonization movement, security concerns, and AI's unprecedented energy demands make nuclear a no-brainer for uninterrupted electricity around the world. She and Riccardo unpack the misunderstood safety record and strategic advantages of the made-in-Canada nuclear solution, as well as the practical importance of major project best practices in ensuring the success of complex nuclear infrastructure builds. This episode presents insights on the future of energy that make a compelling case for why nuclear matters now more than ever.Key TakeawaysThe factors behind the global nuclear renaissance;What history got wrong, and how public perception of nuclear risk has evolved;What sets CANDU reactors apart, including fuel flexibility to medical isotope production;How the Darlington refurbishment succeeded through collaborative project management and realistic planning;What the global future of nuclear looks like—and why Canada is well-positioned to lead.Quote:“It gets back to fundamental project management. With power ​generation, ​we ​are ​dealing ​with ​a ​very ​sophisticated ​customer ​that ​not ​only ​runs ​a ​big ​fleet ​of ​reactors, but they're not new to major project execution. There was a lot of thought put into how are we going to run this kind of a major project and how are we going to listen to those who have been around the block and then do this project differently. There's not one silver bullet you can point to, but many many things we've done correctly.” - Julianne den DeckerThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Follow Shormila Chatterjee: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shormilac/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Follow Julanne Dan Decker: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julianne-den-decker-541a4b46/   Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

How are new procurement approaches, policies, and politics affecting disputes in major programmes? As collaborative and alliance models continue to rise in popularity, the old disputes playbook is rapidly being rewritten. It's an exploration perfectly suited to Uncharted Conversations, so Riccardo and Melissa Di Marco take aim at the ways dispute resolution is evolving—courtroom litigation and boardroom negotiations, data-driven forensics, and increasingly AI-assisted workflows.The focus on alliance-style contracts is shifting fault lines and muddying traditional supply chain relationships within the industry. Legal grey zones introduced by expanding digital components are challenging the dispute landscape, and algorithms are having an outsized influence on expert analysis. Melissa also breaks down why environmental disputes are primed to be the next big thing. This episode explores how teams delivering major infrastructure projects must adapt not only their contracts but also their thinking to resolve issues in an industry where the source of conflict, and the tools to address it, are changing fast.Key TakeawaysWhy alliance contracts still allow certain claims—and why that matters;How AI and data tools are transforming the speed, scope, and tone of dispute resolution;Dispute review boards (DRBs) and the change in venue of major project disputes;Detailed specifics of how delay analysis goes forward in disputes;How responsibility shifts when AI agents begin making the decisions.Quote:“Data won't eliminate disputes. It might potentially weaponize them in some way, because you can take the same dataset and one party can cherry pick whatever set of data to help them tell a different story, so we might actually see disputes about data about disputes”. - Melissa Di MarcoThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Follow Melissa Di Marco: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-di-marco/Read Riccardo's latest at: https://riccardocosentino.com/   Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

How do you lead a national infrastructure organization in the process of building a new future? This episode for the Master Builders series, invites in one of the experts behind the curtain: Lisa Mitchell, the President and CEO of the Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships (CCPPP). In her deep-dive conversation with Riccardo and Shormila, she speaks to her journey from politics to the forefront of Canada's infrastructure evolution.Early experiences in Ottawa prepared Lisa for the fast pace and competing priorities of national infrastructure. She shares how she navigated imposter syndrome and career pivots, and why she sees this moment as a powerful opportunity to modernize P3s. The cross-cultural strengths of this modality, many of which are unique to Canada, create a strong foundation from which to build a groundbreaking tradition, especially today, when infrastructure finds itself front and centre in political discourse. From fostering industry-wide collaboration to advocating for programmatic delivery and inclusive stakeholder engagement, Lisa takes us on a candid, capable, and humble exploration of how we might build a better Canada—one conversation, one contract, and one conference at a time.Key Takeaways:Why redefining leadership means focusing on function, not the title;How infrastructure became a top political priority—and what comes next;The public and private discourse that makes Canada's P3 ecosystem uniques;What goes into organizing Canada's biggest infrastructure conference (aka P3 Prom);Why the next era of P3s must expand beyond traditional models and asset classes.Quote“It's ​naturally ​built ​on ​competition, ​but ​I ​had ​never ​met ​a ​group ​of ​private ​and ​public ​sector ​folks ​that ​were ​so ​willing ​and ​committed ​to ​sit ​at ​the ​table ​and ​figure ​out ​how ​to ​make ​things ​work ​and ​to ​do ​good ​things. If ​we've ​got ​a ​sticky ​policy ​thing, ​I ​can ​pull ​a ​group ​of ​people ​together ​to ​sit ​around ​a ​boardroom ​table  very ​easily. ​They're ​so ​committed ​and ​willing ​and ​they're ​able ​to put ​​the ​individual ​​needs on ​the ​back ​burner ​to ​have ​these ​conversations ​and ​really ​look ​at ​it as ​industry ​specific. ​And ​I've ​just ​been ​so ​fascinated ​by ​that.” - Lisa MitchellThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Follow Shormila Chatterjee: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shormilac/Read Riccardo's latest a: https://riccardocosentino.com/Follow Lisa Mitchell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisa-mitchell/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What does it take to deliver nation-building infrastructure in an era of political momentum, regulatory complexity, and evolving priorities? Prepare for an evocative conversation with Tim Murphy, as we explore a complex and important question for our country's future. Tim is the Executive Vice President and Chief Strategic Affairs Officer at AECON with an illustrious 40-year career in litigation, politics, and major projects. This wide-ranging discussion is an expert look at the opportunities and obstacles shaping Canada's infrastructure in the coming years. Tim and Riccardo unpack the interplay between political will, regulatory frameworks, Indigenous participation, and shifting public expectations.Success depends on more than funding and approvals: it calls for courage, collaboration, and a willingness to rethink entrenched models. Tim speaks to lessons learned from vertical and horizontal building projects, the complicated role of Indigenous reconciliation in project planning, and the urgent need for productivity and innovation in the construction sector. This conversation highlights both the challenges and the untapped potential of thinking—and building—bigger.Key Takeaways:Why Canada's current political climate creates a rare opportunity for nation-building infrastructure.How Indigenous participation is reshaping project planning and delivery.The unique regulatory and stakeholder challenges of vertical and horizontal infrastructure projects.Why public-sector incentives must evolve to prioritize project success over strict contract adherence.The role of government in driving technology adoption in construction.Quote:“To ​be ​honest ​with ​you, ​divergent ​interests ​inside ​the ​indigenous ​communities ​too. ​You'll ​have ​some ​national ​organizations ​who ​have ​certain ​kinds ​of ​views ​as ​national ​organizations, ​and ​very ​particular ​communities ​who ​are ​supportive ​of ​particular ​projects ​and ​want ​it ​to ​proceed ​because ​they ​see ​it as ​the ​chance ​for ​economic ​reconciliation, ​jobs, ​contracts, ​opportunities. ​etc. ​So ​I ​think ​there's ​a ​process ​that ​needs ​to ​happen ​to have ​those ​discussions ​at ​a outsized ​project ​specific. ​And ​then ​part ​two ​is ​the ​project ​specific. ​So ​it's ​not ​going ​to ​be ​fast.” - Tim MurphyThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Follow Tim Murphy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tjmurphy1959/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What does it take to thrive in the highly complex and male-dominated financial industry? This episode of Master Builder highlights the journey and achievements of Sara Alvarado, a powerhouse in infrastructure finance whose career has spanned continents, crises, and industry and policy overhauls. With co-hosts Riccardo and Shormila, Sara shares how her experience as an immigrant shaped her resilience. She details her role in defining infrastructure as an asset class in Canada and describes the unique combination of ever-growing policy and risk expertise that has kept her on a steady career trajectory for more than 30 years. From spearheading early renewable energy financing deals to helping shape global UN guidelines on digitalization and gender equality, Sara reminds us that success is driven by more than technical skills—it calls for hard work, curiosity, and passion.This conversation is an opportunity to explore the interplay of finance, infrastructure, and social impact. Sara recently received the King Charles III Coronation Medal for her sustainable finance contributions and is a true Master Builder—one who has already begun to shape her legacy.Key TakeawaysHow Canada's early renewable energy boom helped define infrastructure finance as we know it;The impact of the 2008 financial crisis on infrastructure as a stable, long-term investment;Why policy, finance, and technology need to move in tandem to shape meaningful change;The one trait Sara prioritizes over everything else when building successful teams;A behind-the-scenes look at how UN working groups are driving global change.Quote:“I ​think ​there's ​a ​catalytic ​point. ​It ​is ​in ​our ​brains ​and ​we ​feel ​the ​need to ​do ​more. ​​So ​it's ​either ​moving ​into ​something ​different, ​moving ​into ​a ​much ​more ​senior ​role, ​decision ​maker, ​leader ​position, or ​you ​can ​move ​into ​boards. ​And ​that ​will ​come ​at ​different ​times ​for ​different ​females. ​But ​what ​I ​want ​them ​to ​know ​is, ​yes, ​there ​is ​a ​second ​career ​curve. And ​it can ​be ​hard ​because ​you're ​learning ​something ​else. But ​it ​is ​very ​rewarding. ​And ​it ​happens ​at ​a ​time ​where ​females ​are ​much ​more ​confident.” - Sara AlvaradoThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Follow Shormilla Chatterjee: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shormilac/Follow Sara Alvarado: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sara-alvarado-mba-cfa-b8315764/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

How do we transform infrastructure experts into infrastructure leaders in time for Canada's building boom? Canada is facing a future of increased infrastructure projects, but the country has a poor track record when it comes to delivering major projects. In fact, “over time and over budget” is a global industry trope. In pursuit of systemic, upstream solutions, Riccardo compiles an esteemed panel of experts for a timely and critical conversation: how do we elevate the leadership of multi-billion-dollar major infrastructure programmes essential to our country's national culture and well-being? Barriers to collaboration, differences and similarities between infrastructure programmes and corporations, the behavioural versus the technical—the industry leaders break down what's going wrong and why we haven't fixed it yet. Unwilling to stop at theory, the group posits and troubleshoots actionable ways governments and the private sector could work together to quickly and effectively shore up Canada's infrastructure industry.Key Takeaways:The theories as to why it costs more to create infrastructure in Canada;The significant and often-ignored gap between technical, management, and leadership skill sets;How an integrated leadership training program could elevate all levels of project management;The impact of lackluster research into Canada's past infrastructure successes and failures;Utilizing AI within reason in an industry that relies on human interaction.Quote:“I ​think ​we ​can ​create ​a ​program ​that builds ​on ​the ​global ​experience ​and ​best ​practices, ​but ​also ​captures ​Canada's ​own ​project ​delivery ​cultures, ​business ​practices,  ​community ​needs, ​and ​sees ​leadership ​through ​that ​lens ​and ​enables ​us ​to ​deliver ​projects. ​But ​it's ​going ​to ​take ​governments ​coming ​on ​board and recognizing ​the ​value ​that ​it's ​not ​just ​private ​sector ​expertise ​on ​these ​projects. ​You ​don't ​just ​hand ​over ​a ​project ​and ​then ​say ​come ​back ​in ​five ​years ​and ​we'll ​cut ​the ​ribbon ​together. There's ​a ​ton ​of ​leadership ​that's ​required ​on ​the ​public ​sector ​side ​too, ​at ​the ​highest ​levels ​of ​the ​organization ​to ​make ​sure ​that ​these ​projects ​stay ​on ​track.” - Matti Siemiatycki The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Connect with Matti Siemiatycki: https://www.geography.utoronto.ca/people/directories/all-faculty/matti-siemiatyckiLearn more about Kirsten's work at https://aecom.com/en-ca/about-us/our-leadership/kirsten-watson-2/Connect with Suzanne Moreland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzannemoreland/Connect with John Allen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-allen-30452226/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

How does cross-over between diverse perspectives and cultures affect project delivery, and how could it be improved? In this episode of Uncharted Conversations, Shormila and Riccardo are once again joined by fellow infrastructure experts David Ho and Melissa Di Marco. Their animated discussion explores how organizational dynamics—building teams that combine both multi-service and multinational cultures—impact the successful delivery of major programmes. Jumping directly into the action items of a project, as the client often expects, is a great dopamine hit, but is it really the best approach? The self-proclaimed industry pirates call out the drawbacks of North America's checks and balances tradition and the need for more client ownership. This episode aims the cannons at systemic assumptions and poses big questions to procurement professionals, all with the crew's uniquely provocative and playful inspection of their industry.Key Takeaways:The importance of aligning the values across a project and all its contributors;Recognizing that “meaningful teaming up” takes time;The fallout of the industry historically being so transactional and deliverable-focused;The problem with the disconnect between who bids on the project and who ultimately delivers it;How bringing client-side experts to the table could improve infrastructure projects.Quote: “I ​have ​never ​seen an ​RFP ​where ​the ​client who ​is ​asking ​for ​a ​description of ​a ​team ​is ​doing ​so ​with ​reference ​to ​a ​real ​understanding ​of ​how ​you, private ​sector ​company, ​​delineate ​​the ​function ​that's ​responsible ​for ​the ​delivery ​of ​a ​service ​from ​the ​function ​that ​is ​responsible ​for ​the ​P&​L ​from ​the ​way ​in ​which you ​have ​a ​team ​structured ​for ​a ​pursuit versus ​when ​you ​shift ​into ​execution. And ​even ​just ​that ​type ​of ​a ​description would ​be ​an ​interesting ​change ​I ​think ​for ​the ​better ​that ​would ​allow ​clients ​a ​more ​sophisticated ​understanding ​of ​how ​things ​work.” - David HoThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/Follow David Ho: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidtho-ontario/Follow Melissa Di Marco: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-di-marco/Follow Shormila Chatterjee: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shormilac/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What does it take to transform a gateway station into a place where people pause in their head-down commute to connect and reflect? Riccardo Cosentino and returning co-host Corail Bourrelier Fabiani are joined by Jonathan Ring, the Development Director for London-based developer Sellar. They explore the public art programme at Paddington Square—one of the city's most ambitious and complex redevelopment projects.Jonathan shares how the programme evolved from the early planning conditions to the final installation. His experience highlights the balance inherent in major projects, where diverse stakeholder voices, strict timelines, and logistical constraints pile on the pressure and teamwork is non-negotiable.Public art may be a smaller portion of the overall budget, but its impact on the public experience is profound. This episode offers an inside look at the creative and collaborative processes behind curating art in a heavily trafficked urban space. It is a conversation about leadership, legacy, and how the spaces we build shape how people feel.Key TakeawaysPublic art may be a smaller line item, but its emotional and social impact is immense.The earlier you integrate public art into a project's design and planning, the smoother the process will be.Stakeholder management is about more than communication; it calls for timing, trust, and making space for diverse opinions.Delivering complex urban infrastructure requires balancing fixed timelines with creative possibilities.Strong, long-term relationships with designers and collaborators make it easier to solve challenges together.Rotating public art programs create ongoing opportunities for re-engagement and placemaking.Quote: “We're ​really ​trying ​to ​create ​a ​place ​people ​want ​to ​dwell ​in ​because ​it's ​got ​very ​interesting ​areas ​around ​it. And ​the ​public ​art ​really ​formed ​a ​major ​part ​of ​that, creating ​a ​place ​where ​people ​dwell ​in. ​What's ​great ​is ​now ​seeing ​in ​the ​summer, ​and ​I ​bet ​today, ​people ​will ​be ​sitting ​out ​in ​the ​square ​enjoying ​the ​public ​realm, ​seeing ​the ​art ​and ​enjoying ​it.” - Jonathan RingThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Listen to Riccardo and Corail's public art conversation: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/public-art-installation-as-an-intrinsic-part/id1683413407Follow Jonathan Ring: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-ring-4284398b/Follow Corail Bourrelier Fabiani: https://www.linkedin.com/in/corail/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

Can you rise up in the industry without an engineering degree? Kirsten Watson, AECOM's Transit Market Sector Lead, is a case study in how continuous passion for learning and a celebration and honing your strengths—even when they don't appear to be the perfect fit for a role—can lead to a varied and rewarding career. Co-hosts Riccardo and Shormila sit down with the transit executive on the interpersonal side of the industry in this episode of the Master Builder series. They break down the challenges and wins of major infrastructure projects and explore Kirsten's career trajectory from private to public and back again. Their conversation explores the reality of the skills you really need (and don't) for leadership, particularly as a woman in the industry. Kirsten's background in employment law and HR have instilled in her a deep respect for listening—to clients, to stakeholders, to the smartest person in the room. As she explains, that's how she's become the one who brings the right people to the table, and it's how even now, as a master builder, she leads with learning and pushes herself to say yes to even the most challenging opportunities.Key Takeaways:Why the ability to bring people together in agreement and collaboration transcends industry;How to challenge the misgivings of both internal and external skeptics when accepting a position in an unfamiliar field;The truth of the often undervalued HR skillset;The disconnect in big projects between the technology and civil components and who's in charge of them;The ongoing challenge of providing proof of capability again and again as a women in infrastructure.Quote: “I ​think ​that's ​what ​I ​bring ​to ​the ​table, ​is ​the ​ability ​to ​bring ​other ​people ​to ​the ​table. ​And ​when ​we're ​talking ​about women ​in ​leadership ​and ​women ​saying ​yes. Bring ​the ​right ​people ​to ​the ​table ​and ​solve ​the ​problems through ​that ​team ​and ​that ​collaboration trying ​to ​learn ​other ​bits ​of ​the ​business ​so ​that ​you ​can ​actually ​do ​that ​work.” - Kirsten WatsonThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes: https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at https://riccardocosentino.com/   Learn more about Kirsten's work at https://aecom.com/en-ca/about-us/our-leadership/kirsten-watson-2/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

Even traditional contracts can be collaborative with the right team. As a seasoned infrastructure leader who has served in government, private sector, and advisory roles for more than 15 years, Fred Antunes has seen this firsthand. His extensive experience delivering large-scale projects under P3s, design-builds, and collaborative models guides this wide-ranging and nuanced conversation with Riccardo. Together, they unpack truths and myths around what makes projects work.Fred's real-world insights help to highlight the power owners have to shape project relationships and outcomes, the dangers of shifting risk without support, and why alliance contracts call for experienced and deeply engaged teams.Fred and Riccardo reframe collaboration beyond just a type of contract and offer up a compelling case for considering the unique needs, risks, and capabilities of each project team when choosing a delivery approach.Key TakeawaysThe right people, mindset, and approach—not the contract itself—determine whether a project is truly collaborative (and successful).Fair and active engagement from owners through major programme challenges can mean the difference between a frictionless project and a contentious one.When public infrastructure contracts push all risk onto the contractor, collaboration breaks down—and so does performance.Having the right people on the team during high-stress phases can turn a failing project around, even if it means personnel changes.Experience across public and private sectors builds a more well-rounded, adaptable perspective on project delivery.Quote: “The ​thing ​about ​the ​alliance ​that's ​really ​interesting ​is, it's ​like ​setting ​up ​a ​new ​company. ​Where ​you ​basically have an ​alliance ​leadership ​team ​​that ​is ​providing oversight ​and ​direction. ​They're ​like ​the ​board ​of ​directors. ​You ​appoint ​somebody ​who's ​the ​CEO ​and ​then ​you ​basically ​create ​an ​organization ​that ​includes ​people ​from ​the ​owner, ​the ​designer, ​the ​contractor, ​put ​them ​together ​and ​you ​may ​have ​somebody ​from ​the ​owner's ​team ​managing ​somebody ​who's ​in ​the ​design ​team, ​or ​in ​the ​construction ​team, ​but ​they're ​all ​working ​for ​the ​best ​outcome ​of ​the ​project. ​And ​working ​as ​one ​coherent ​management ​team.” - Fred AntunesThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes - https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at http://www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Fred Antunes at https://www.linkedin.com/in/fred-antunes-36912852/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What does it take to lead with integrity and empathy in an industry where technical expertise can quickly outweigh human connection? In this episode of the Master Builder series, Ethel Craft joins Riccardo and Shormila to reflect on a career rooted in service—from her beginnings in social services to her leadership role in Ottawa's rail construction program.Ethel shares how a leadership course during her MBA sparked her passion for mentoring others, ultimately guiding her to pursue a Doctorate in Business while working full-time. Through personal challenges, professional pivots, and academic milestones, Ethel has remained grounded in one goal: to be a role model and a connector. She leads with a deep respect for the people around her and a clear-eyed view of stakeholder relations. Her track record highlights the vital balance leaders must strike between respect for those around them and confidence that they have earned their place, regardless of the journey that brought them to the table.Within this celebration of Ethel's achievements is an invitation to re-envision what leadership can look like, in infrastructure and beyond.Key Takeaways:Genuine care and passion can take you further in leadership than a degree in your chosen industry.A strong support network makes all the difference as you chase your goals through life's inevitable challenges.Imposter syndrome is common, even among accomplished leaders, but it shouldn't define your path.Seeking to be a good role model can have a significant positive influence on your path to success.Real leadership is less about having all the answers and more about creating space for others to shine.Quote:“I ​felt ​like ​I ​was ​just ​draining ​everything ​within ​me, ​and ​at ​the ​same ​time, ​I ​needed ​to ​be ​a ​mom. ​And I ​was ​working, ​too. So, ​it ​was ​hard. ​But ​I ​had ​this ​amazing ​supervisor who ​just kept ​telling ​me, ​you ​can ​do ​this. ​Never ​putting ​pressure ​on ​me, telling ​me ​to ​take ​the ​time. ​And ​so ​when ​I ​talk ​about ​having ​a ​support ​system, ​it's ​a ​word ​that ​we ​take ​for ​granted, right? ​​But ​to ​have ​that ​network ​around ​you ​that ​makes ​you ​feel ​full ​on ​the ​inside is ​crucial.​” - Ethel CraftThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes - https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at http://www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Shormilla Chatterjee at https://www.linkedin.com/in/shormilac/Follow Ethel Craft at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethel-craft-dba-mba-7961a724/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

Uncharted Conversations facilitates unscripted and controversial discussions aimed at disrupting the infrastructure industry. In the face of major skills shortages affecting Canada's major programmes, Riccardo sits down with David Ho, the National Leader for Healthcare and Buildings at Accenture. What begins as a look at the skill-based industry shortcomings transforms into a nuanced conversation about cultural, structural, and leadership challenges.Is the talent shortage just about trades and technical labour, or are we also seeing a void in leadership and bold thinking? Together, David and Riccardo dig into why the industry struggles to innovate, what it would take to truly break from tradition, and how a fear-based approach to risk weakens even the most capable leaders. They explore how changing political priorities, unclear project outcomes, and resistance to outside ideas further complicate the path forward.This conversation challenges long-held assumptions and invites anyone involved at every stage of the infrastructure delivery lifecycle to have the kinds of discussions that, David and Riccardo argue, are essential to carrying the industry into the future.Key Takeaways:Current labour shortages may be overshadowed by a systematically hindered approach to leadership.The shift of project outcomes over time, while often unavoidable, creates missed opportunities for the implementation of new technologies.Fear of risk is an intrinsic part of the industry's culture, discouraging first movers and stifling the bold leadership required for innovation.Venture capital constraints and razor-thin contractor margins leave little room for research and development.Remote and underserved communities could be catalysts for innovation—if approached with intention.How a uniqueness bias prompts us to reject international approaches that could help Canada adapt and improve.Quote: “I encounter lots of different infrastructure leaders and usually conversations where  these individuals are reflecting on their own organizations or on other  organizations. Somewhere  within the diagnosis is a problem of disempowerment.  And  that when people and leaders are not truly empowered, they fail to live up to what are their on paper accountabilities. And lack of empowerment at all different  levels of leadership causes people to put the blinders on, work in their silo and  become content or comfortable being told what to do. And ​that ​is ​the ​sort ​of ​exact ​​opposite ​type ​of ​outcome ​and ​behaviour ​we ​want ​from leaders.” - David HoThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes - https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at http://www.riccardocosentino.comFollow David Ho - https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidtho-ontario/Listen to Riccardo's interview with Alice of Brick & Mortar Ventures at https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/construction-technology-and-the-importance/id1683413407?i=1000709879402 Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

How do we build better cities that hold community in as high regard as revenue? It starts with an approach to urban infrastructure that goes beyond roads and bridges. In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo sits down with Matti Siemiatycki, Director of the Infrastructure Institute and a professor at the University of Toronto.Matti draws from both his academic work and practical involvement in major projects to outline the potential of community impact, intentional design, and interdisciplinary collaboration. The right balance of these components can change the way cities are built and expand their positive impacts exponentially.From reimagining schools and fire stations as mixed-use spaces to championing health-oriented communities, Matti offers a compelling argument for infrastructure that does more than meet technical needs. He explains why universities are uniquely positioned to support community-driven projects, how the Infrastructure Institute leverages academic insight into real-world support, and why we need a mindset shift to make the most of aging public assets.With case studies that range from TIFF Bell Lightbox to stacked fire stations, this episode challenges conventional thinking. Matti designs a hopeful vision for what's possible when planners, policymakers, and local communities work together by design.Key Takeaways:The measures that can mitigate the long-held divide between academic research and infrastructure practice.How mixed-use public buildings can maximize land value and community benefit when intentionally designed.The vital support role universities can play by helping non-profits and public agencies navigate complex early-stage urban planning work.Where social-purpose infrastructure has moved beyond the theoretical into tangible action in Canada.Why rethinking underutilized land and public assets isn't just about financial return—it's a matter of long-term social value and good land stewardship.Quote: “I've become really engaged on this idea that we can build schools differently and that you can have a stack school. Reimagining what a mixed use school might look like. You have to make sure that the building is safe and that there's no unsupervised access between the different uses. There's always questions about where the schoolyard is going to go. Because a lot of the communities we're building now are very dense and so there's questions about like, can you have some part of the school yard on the roof of the building, for example, so it's a shared use. How does the housing actually fit up above and how do they access it?" - Matti SiemiatyckiThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comConnect with Matti SiemiatyckiLearn more about the Infrastructure InstituteListen to Matti's Season 2 Navigating Major Programmes interview Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What does it take to lead major programmes in one of the world's most complex, highly regulated, and rapidly evolving sectors? Carol Tansley has built a career doing just that. In this episode of the Master Builder series, she joins Riccardo to talk about her unconventional path to leadership in the nuclear industry. Carol takes listeners through her early days in international consulting, a transformative period working in Saudi Arabia, up to her current role spearheading major nuclear projects at X-Energy in Maryland.Carol offers a candid look at what it means to lead with strategy and humility. She shares how returning to school mid-career helped sharpen her focus and how stakeholder alignment is the biggest differentiator of success. They also explore why complex infrastructure projects demand more than technical skills—genuine engagement, curiosity, and a deep respect for collaboration are equally essential. Whether you're already in the field or considering your options in programme management, Carol's humble and holistic perspective is a powerful reminder of how valuable and versatile project leadership can be.Key TakeawaysStrong project leadership is powered by vision, adaptability, and people skills, as much or more than by technical knowledge.How unfamiliar or challenging environments can accelerate your leadership growth if you focus on creating value for others.The factors shaping nuclear energy's resurgence, from policy to AI and decarbonization.The importance of minimizing first-time risks in successful major programme management.The truth of infrastructure projects: it is less about individual brilliance and more about coordinated collaboration across hundreds of contributors.Quote:“But ​I ​would ​say, ​you ​know, ​from ​an ​early ​stage ​in ​my ​career, ​I ​think ​the ​thing ​you ​learn ​more ​than ​anything ​is, ​I'll ​call ​it ​stakeholder ​management, ​for ​want ​of ​a ​more delicate ​expression. ​You ​know, ​the ​ability ​to ​be ​able ​to ​help ​people. ​I ​mean, ​something ​somebody ​told ​me ​years ​and ​years ​ago, ​and ​this ​wasn't ​even ​in ​a ​work ​context, ​was ​when ​there's ​somebody ​standing ​in ​front ​of ​you, ​what ​you ​should ​do ​is ​look ​and ​think, ​how ​can ​I ​help ​this ​person? ​And ​I ​think ​if ​you ​bring ​that ​kind ​of ​mindset, ​you ​know, ​what ​can ​you ​do ​to ​try ​and ​make ​everybody ​else ​successful? ​That ​really ​helps. An ​ability ​to think ​about ​how ​you ​add ​value on ​other ​people's ​terms, ​not ​just ​what ​is ​valuable ​in ​your ​context. ​And ​I ​feel ​like ​that, that ​has ​served ​me ​quite ​well ​wherever ​I've ​been. ​You ​know, ​ability ​to. ​And ​the ​willingness ​to ​listen ​and ​understand ​what ​it ​is ​other ​people ​are needing ​and ​what ​will ​help ​them ​to ​be ​successful.” - Carol TansleyThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Carol TansleyListen to Carol's Season 1 Navigating Major Programmes interview Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

In the second installment of this two-part series on public–private partnerships (P3s), Riccardo and his expert guests move from theory to practice, digging into the real-world complexities and nuances that make or break these projects. Emily Moore (University of Toronto), Pouya Zangeneh (University of Calgary), and Rob Pattison (Rob Pattison Consulting) return to share lessons from the field and reflections on how innovation, collaboration, and contract design shape project outcomes.Together, they explore why achieving true output-based specifications is so challenging in regulated environments, when P3s work best for complex projects, and how to balance innovation with safety and quality. The conversation also delves into the human factors behind success: how courage, trust, and integrity influence outcomes far more than contract structures alone.From navigating biases in project estimation to building the conditions for genuine collaboration, this episode offers a candid look at what it takes to deliver high-quality infrastructure through public–private partnerships today.Key TakeawaysThe fine line between reality and expectation in output-based specifications.Cutting corners is a false economy, but owners and contractors can still explore feasible ways to save time and money.The real differences between collaborative and alliance versus P3 models.The conclusions to be drawn from examining the first wave of P3 and linear projects in Canada.The huge impact of having courage and character in this industry.Quote“I'm ​first ​and ​foremost a ​contracts ​person, ​and ​I ​love ​contracts ​and ​I ​believe ​in ​freedom ​of ​contract. Freedom ​of ​contract ​​means, ​at ​its ​heart, ​the ​freedom ​to ​make ​what ​might ​appear ​to ​others ​​to ​be ​a ​bad ​deal, right? ​So ​let ​me ​offer ​the ​three ​of ​you ​a ​deal. I'm ​going ​to ​pay ​you, ​I ​don't ​know, ​a ​thousand ​bucks ​a ​year. ​And ​if ​I ​get ​drunk ​and ​fall ​asleep ​smoking ​in ​my ​bed, ​you're ​going ​to ​build ​me ​a ​new ​house ​for ​a ​couple ​of ​million ​bucks, anybody ​want ​to ​sign ​that ​contract ​with ​me, right? ​You'd ​be ​crazy ​to. ​That's ​a ​crazy ​contract, right? ​But ​my ​insurance ​company ​does ​that ​for ​me. ​They ​take ​that ​bet ​and ​they ​make ​a ​bucket ​of ​money ​doing ​it. Maybe ​not ​these ​days, ​but, ​you ​know, ​traditionally, ​that's ​a ​contract ​that ​looks ​ridiculous ​on ​its ​face, and ​yet ​it ​works.” - Rob PattisonThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Emily MooreFollow Pouya ZangenehFollow Robert Pattison Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

Public–private partnerships (P3s) have long been used as a tool for delivering complex infrastructure projects in Canada, but the landscape is changing. In this episode, Riccardo and his panel of experts explore how P3s have evolved and what that means for today's projects, funding models, and risk-sharing dynamics.In this two-part series, Emily Moore (University of Toronto), Pouya Zangeneh (University of Calgary), and Rob Pattison (Rob Pattison Consulting) bring industry, academic, and legal perspectives to the conversation. Together, they unpack how shifting risk appetites, funding structures, and partner roles are reshaping both the potential and the challenges of using P3s.From the financial nuances of availability versus revenue deals to the often-overlooked behavioural impacts of changing equity stakes, this discussion offers timely insights for anyone curious about what makes these partnerships succeed or fail.Key TakeawaysHow project decisions, such as the approach to liquidated damages, change based on whether a project is privately or publicly funded.The various dynamics and incentives in revenue deals and availability deals.How equity plays into the outcomes of P3 projects, both beneficially and detrimentally.How misaligned motivations, externally or internally, can complicate or even derail a project.The history and practice of honourariums and bid fees during project bidding.Quote“Any ​contractor ​that ​they're ​going ​to ​hire ​is completely ​independent. ​They're ​a ​third ​party. ​And ​so ​if ​to ​protect ​your ​equity ​as ​the ​owner ​and ​if ​to ​protect ​the ​business, ​you've ​got ​to ​bankrupt ​your ​contractor, ​well, ​you ​know, ​you ​won't ​have ​qualms ​about ​that. ​I ​mean, ​other ​than ​as ​a ​sort ​of ​human ​being ​walking ​around ​on ​this ​planet. ​But ​from ​a ​financial ​perspective, ​you ​won't ​have ​any ​qualms ​about ​that ​because ​your ​only ​relationship ​is ​that ​contract ​and ​you've ​got ​securities ​and ​you've ​got ​this ​and ​that ​and ​you've ​got ​the ​other ​thing. ​And ​the ​interesting ​thing ​in ​a ​P3 ​is ​if ​everybody ​in ​that ​family ​has ​their ​own ​P ​and ​L  ​and ​if ​they ​take ​it ​to ​the ​logical ​extension, ​and ​Ricardo, ​you'll ​correct ​me, ​but ​if ​you're ​a ​public ​company, every ​officer ​of ​that ​company ​who's ​got ​a ​P ​and ​L ​has ​a ​fiduciary ​duty ​to ​deliver ​for ​the ​public ​company. ​And ​well, ​my ​responsibility ​is ​my ​P ​and ​L. ​And ​if ​protecting ​my ​P ​and ​L ​means ​bankrupting ​another ​division, ​actually ​that's ​what ​I ​got ​to ​do ​unless ​the ​board ​wants ​to ​overrule ​me.” - Rob PattisonThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Emily MooreFollow Pouya ZangenehFollow Robert Pattison Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

Welcome to Uncharted Conversations, a new Navigating Major Programmes series designed to disrupt industry thinking one unscripted conversation at a time. In each episode, the panelists bring their diverse perspectives to the table as self-dubbed industry pirates, adopting a mercenary approach to calling out industry challenges. Up first: collaborative contracts. David Ho is the National Leader of Healthcare and Buildings for Accenture. Melissa Di Marco is a Partner and specialist in Project Advisory and Disputes at Accuracy. Shormila Chatterjee is the Vice President of EY. Together, these experienced programme professionals discuss the complexities of collaborative contracting in the infrastructure sector, including often-seen core competency shortcomings and the importance of empowering the right decision makers.Too often, collaboration is misconstrued as the project goal when it is, in fact, merely one possible vehicle. This conversation delves into market participation, trust issues and risk allocation, and why technical skill shouldn't top the recruitment checklist. Decision-making, competency, and governance are painstakingly dissected in this no-holds-barred discussion that highlights the problems not with collaborative contracts themselves but with the assumption that choosing this model will fix all the problems. Join these leaders as they explore why the infrastructure industry might be ready for a seismic systemic shift.Takeaways:Why every organization's first question should be whether they have the skills to manage a collaborative contract.The dangers of assuming a collaborative contract will automatically be easier and mitigate risk.The need for a strong collection of capable people around the table for any programme model to succeed.How systems and governance can be structured with empowerment in mind.The soft skills that are essential, and more important than technical experience, for true collaboration.Quote: “The idea ​will ​be ​to enter ​into ​a ​process ​with ​a ​winning ​counterparty. ​We ​can ​call ​them ​whatever ​we ​want, ​development ​partner, ​whatever ​it ​might ​be. But ​that ​period ​of ​dialogue ​and ​iteration,​ ​if ​it ​is ​prescribed ​by ​an ​even ​more ​detailed ​rulebook, in ​my ​mind, ​it ​doesn't ​matter ​if ​the ​end ​of ​that ​rulebook ​still ​doesn't ​have ​a ​fixed ​price. ​All ​you're ​doing ​is ​layering ​on ​a ​set ​of ​rules ​that ​is ​now ​a ​wholly ​dependent ​upon ​the ​behavioural ​interpretations ​of ​the ​people ​playing ​the ​game. ​And ​if ​the ​behavioural ​interpretation ​is, ​I'm ​going ​to ​use ​the ​rules ​to ​my ​advantage ​to ​exploit ​your ​bad ​writing ​of ​the ​rules, ​or ​I'm ​going ​to ​use ​the ​rules ​to ​my ​advantage ​to ​compel ​you ​to ​obey ​no ​matter ​what. ​Then ​forget ​it. ​It's ​not ​collaborative. ​It ​is ​just ​a ​more ​involved ​rule ​book ​​for ​less ​certainty ​of ​outcome.” - David HoThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow David HoFollow Melissa Di MarcoFollow Shormilla Chatterjee Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

How is urban art developed in cooperation with planners, developers, and architects? Public art is designed to be viewed and enjoyed from many angles. Riccardo embraces this 360-degree perspective in this episode by examining a component of major programmes that is not often explored: the development of the impressive art installations on display in many public buildings. He speaks with Corail Bourrelier Fabiani, a former host of the podcast and the passionate programme manager behind London's Shard and Paddington Square sculptures.Corail outlines the intricate relationship between public art and major urban developments in the city, from why it's so important to inspire ongoing wonder in our concrete jungles to the challenges of getting involved late in the development process. Her experiences highlight the importance of stakeholder collaboration and the many moving parts that must be navigated to create something beautiful, lasting, and welcoming for tourists and residents alike—something that helps define the fabric of the city around us.Takeaways:The humanizing impact of interacting with public art.The complex process of stakeholder management and artistic team selection.The benefits of enthusiastic architect and engineer buy-in on an art installation.The technical, structural, and visual challenges inherent in making public art decisions at the end of development.Quote: “There ​are ​a ​lot ​of ​sculptures ​around ​us ​that ​we, ​after ​a ​while, ​we ​don't ​even ​see. ​And ​I ​would ​say, ​like, ​it's ​true. ​It's ​true ​with ​a ​lot ​of ​the ​urban ​fabric ​that ​when ​you ​get ​used ​to ​something, ​you ​just ​stop ​like ​looking ​at ​it. ​If ​you ​take ​the ​tube ​in ​Paris, ​for ​example, ​like ​the ​very ​old ​entrances ​to ​the ​tube ​with ​like ​the ​lights ​and ​the ​way ​they're ​shaped, ​etc. ​This ​kind ​of ​Art ​Deco, ​like, ​beautiful ​entrance. ​Most ​people ​don't ​even see ​them ​anymore, ​you ​know. ​Or ​if ​you ​walk ​along ​alongside ​the ​Thames ​and ​you ​go closer ​to ​the ​Tate, ​you ​would ​see ​these ​lampposts ​that ​have ​big ​fish ​at ​the ​bottom ​of ​them ​that ​are, ​you ​know, ​around ​the ​lamppost. ​And ​a ​lot ​of ​people, ​because ​we're ​so. ​There ​are ​so ​many ​images, ​etc, ​or ​we're ​too ​much ​into ​our ​own ​world, ​like ​thinking ​about ​our ​issues, ​our, ​like ​our ​next ​meeting, ​et ​cetera, ​we ​just ​walk ​past ​them ​without ​even ​noticing ​what's ​around ​us. ​And ​I ​think ​art, ​​the ​magic ​of ​art ​is ​that ​sometimes ​it ​grabs ​your ​attention, ​you ​don't ​know ​why, ​and ​it ​makes ​you ​stop ​for ​a ​second ​and ​realize ​that ​your ​surroundings, ​or ​be ​completely ​amazed ​that ​you ​notice ​that ​element.” - Corail Bourrelier FabianiThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Corail Bourrelier Fabiani Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What does the future of construction technology hold for industry and investors? Through more than a decade of work in construction tech and AEC-focused venture capital, Alice Leung has seen much of the technology being developed for construction in recent years, as well as the challenges forward-thinking tech startups face as they pursue adoption and implementation of their software within this hard-to-crack industry. Navigating Major Programmes delves into the past, present, and future of construction technology as Riccardo speaks with Alice about the sector's opportunities and limitations. They discuss the importance of sector expertise in venture capital, the evolution of AEC technology, and the impact of delivery models on technology adoption. Their conversation explores the significance of collaboration and the impact technology can have on this approach, as well as incentive alignment and the potential of robotics in addressing labour shortages. Alice's take on cultural shifts that could lead to tech adoption and improve the safety and efficiency of building projects is both realistic and optimistic, emphasizing the rewarding nature of building long-lasting infrastructure.Takeaways:The productivity and efficiency challenges inherent in traditional construction projects.The history of AEC investment and how venture capitalists and experienced industry professionals can work together.The importance of pursuing innovation in construction technology.How incentive alignment could help drive collaboration in construction.Why robotics might be the answer to some of the industry's biggest challenges.Quote:“I ​think, ​you ​know, ​when ​you, there's ​a ​lot ​of, ​kind ​of ​different ​angles ​and ​different problems ​where ​you ​can ​really ​see ​this, right? ​One ​of ​​my ​favourite ​examples ​is ​obviously ​around ​BIM ​and VEC, ​right? ​Like, ​BIM ​has ​been ​around ​for ​a ​long ​time. ​Why ​hasn't ​it ​truly ​been ​adopted, right? ​And ​in ​theory you ​should ​have ​this ​federated ​model ​that ​everyone ​can ​leverage, right? ​That's ​the ​goal, ​right? ​Is ​like, ​you ​have ​this ​one ​single ​source ​of ​truth ​with ​everything ​that ​you ​need ​obviously ​to ​different ​complexities ​across ​the ​supply ​chain. ​But ​let's ​just ​pretend ​that ​we're ​in ​this ​perfect ​world ​right ​now ​where ​we ​have ​that ​fully ​coordinated ​model, ​everything ​makes ​sense. ​If ​we ​build ​off ​of ​it, ​we ​won't ​have ​any ​rework. ​We ​shouldn't ​have ​that ​many ​issues ​in ​the ​field. ​But ​if ​you ​think ​about ​just ​pure, ​if ​this ​was ​fixed ​price, ​contract, design, ​bid ​build ​with ​BIM, why ​does ​that ​fail? ​Because everyone ​needs ​a ​different ​level ​of ​detail. ​Everyone ​wants ​to ​maybe ​add ​or ​use ​different ​data ​in ​those ​models and ​to ​get ​to ​a ​model ​that ​is accurate ​enough ​for ​construction, ​you're ​really ​asking ​the ​design ​teams ​to ​put ​in ​so ​much ​more ​effort ​than ​really ​what ​they ​normally ​do. I ​think ​this ​is ​all ​about ​incentive ​alignment. ​And ​with ​the ​traditional ​contracting ​methods ​it's ​like, ​oh, ​why ​would ​I ​add ​more ​detail ​in ​my ​goodwill ​to ​help ​this ​other ​company ​who ​may ​​mess ​me ​up ​in ​the ​future, ​right?” - Alice LeungThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Alice Leung Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

How does a master insurance executive balance globe-trotting, raising a family, and pursuing meaningful projects? In this episode of the Master Builder series, Shormila explores the realities of professional and personal life in the C-suite with Sarah Roberts, the president of INTECH Risk Management.Sarah delves into the history of insurance, both her own and how this vital component of infrastructure projects first came to be. In an industry that is evolving due to increased global and climate change demands, clear communication, public-private partnerships, and professional liability insurance as a whole have never been more important—but they're only part of the story. Sarah's intricate balance of career and family life is relatable or aspirational to so many. It highlights a dedication to both her chosen industry and personal passions, from overseeing risk management projects around the world to the challenges and rewards of being a working mother in two countries.Key Takeaways:The importance of professional liability insurance in infrastructure.The significance of breaking down “insurance speak” in client relationships.The intriguing history of insurance and the rise of women in the industry.The rewarding challenges of balancing family and career across continents.The positive impact of diverse perspectives on infrastructure projects.“I ​think ​probably ​that ​sort ​of ​​light ​bulb ​moment ​for ​me ​was, ​probably ​sitting ​in ​a ​meeting ​one ​day, ​and ​you ​had ​the ​insurance ​brokers ​and ​you ​had ​claims ​adjusters ​and ​they ​were ​all ​talking ​insurance ​speak ​to ​one ​of ​our ​clients. ​And ​you ​could ​just ​see ​them ​all ​sitting ​there, ​five ​of ​them ​with ​their ​eyes ​completely ​glazed ​over, ​having ​no ​idea ​what ​was ​going ​on. And ​I ​sort ​of ​stepped ​in ​and ​I ​said ​we ​need ​to ​speak ​English ​to ​people, right? ​And ​you ​know, ​it's ​great ​to ​throw ​around ​all ​the ​terminology ​and ​I ​am ​the ​biggest ​insurance ​geek. ​So ​you ​get ​me ​on ​the ​phone ​with ​insurance ​people ​​and ​that's ​what ​we ​will ​speak, ​acronyms ​just ​like ​engineers ​will, right? We ​will, ​we ​will ​speak ​all ​of ​that ​sort ​of ​insurance ​ease ​that's ​there. ​But ​when ​you're ​talking ​to ​a ​layperson, ​it ​doesn't ​mean ​anything ​to them.” - Sarah RobertsThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes - https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Follow Shormila Chatterjee - https://www.linkedin.com/in/shormilac/Read Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Sarah Roberts - https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-roberts-74005024/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What does it mean to build infrastructure that goes beyond causing or just avoiding friction with the policy side of the table? In this episode, David Ho—former lawyer, infrastructure strategist, and seasoned capital program and project manager—joins Riccardo to discuss how major projects are shaped not only by procurement models but by the complex, nuanced world of policy-making.David has experience in helping stakeholders understand the limits of doing everything at once and the possibilities that emerge when we confront different questions. From collaborative contracting models to data governance in healthcare infrastructure, he challenges them to think beyond technical fixes and ask, What's the real problem we're solving for? The relationship between infrastructure professionals and policymakers should involve informing policy, not just executing it.David and Riccardo explore why infrastructure can struggle to keep pace with need and the role risk aversion plays in enacting change.”It's ​like ​we ​didn't ​examine ​what ​were ​the ​original ​root ​cause ​problems ​that ​were ​driving ​us ​to ​what ​we've ​been ​feeling ​and ​seeing ​in ​the ​last ​few ​years. ​And ​by ​that ​I ​mean ​what ​are ​both ​the ​political ​and ​market ​dynamics ​that ​are ​bigger ​than ​just ​us, ​uh, ​in ​the ​infrastructure ​space? ​I'll ​speak ​for ​what ​I ​see ​in ​Ontario, ​in ​Canada, ​because ​I ​obviously ​know ​that ​best. ​But ​I, ​I ​have ​a ​suspicion ​this ​is ​very, ​very ​similar ​in ​other ​places ​around ​the ​world. ​If ​you ​ask ​people, ​you ​know, ​why ​are ​we ​going ​into ​a ​collaborative ​model, ​by ​the ​way? ​You ​know, ​whatever ​your ​working ​definition ​of ​collaborative ​or ​progressive ​actually ​means, ​I ​think ​you ​would ​get ​a ​lot ​of ​different ​answers ​of ​what ​people ​are ​trying ​to ​solve ​for. ​And ​none ​of ​them ​are ​necessarily ​wrong. ​But ​if ​you ​add ​them ​together,​sometimes ​we ​try ​and ​be ​too ​intellectually ​precise. ​We ​talk ​about ​risk, ​actually ​we ​talk ​about ​risk ​a ​lot, ​but ​we ​don't ​talk ​about ​market ​forces ​and ​dynamics ​and ​we ​don't ​talk ​about ​political ​pressures other ​than ​to ​just ​be ​really ​negative ​about ​them, ​but ​they're ​actually ​real.” - David HoKey Takeaways:Why building relationships isn't just practicing government relations.What can happen when we turn our minds to “what's possible” instead of “why it's not possible”.The impact of change management and agility on procurement and execution.What the voice of disruption looks like to create big changes in infrastructure.How health data privacy laws tie in to infrastructure.The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major Programmes - https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino - https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow David Ho - https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidtho-ontario/ Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

In engineering today, more and more people are choosing the generalist route, often pivoting off that solid, multi-faceted educational foundation into different fields. But what happens when you take the opposite route, honing in to pursue an aspect of your work that truly drives your passion?In today's episode of Navigating Major Programmes, hosts Riccardo Cosentino and Shormila Chatterjee speak with a Master Builder who did just that. After spending her early years on industrial projects, Wendy Itagawa returned to school for a Master's in structural engineering, focusing on bridge design. Today, she serves as the Executive Director of Vancouver's Pattullo Bridge Replacement Project, of which she's been an integral part for more than seven years. She shares how working with and leading teams through the whole lifecycle of projects impacts how she views the work she has completed on some of the country's most high-profile transportation initiatives.”I ​really ​believe ​that ​even ​if ​it's ​a ​design ​build ​contract, ​it ​doesn't ​necessarily ​mean ​you ​don't ​have ​to ​be ​in ​one ​of ​these ​progressive ​collaborative ​models. ​So ​really ​comes ​down ​to ​the ​relationship ​and ​helping, ​helping ​each ​other. ​And ​I ​think ​sometimes ​what ​I've ​seen ​is, ​you ​know, ​owners ​or ​on ​their ​team ​that ​too ​almost ​afraid ​of ​helping ​too ​much ​or ​because ​you're ​afraid ​of ​getting ​claims ​or ​creating ​too ​many ​changes. ​But ​I ​think ​it ​actually ​prevents ​that ​and ​you ​know, ​claims ​are ​going ​to ​happen ​either ​way. ​So, ​but ​you ​can ​mitigate ​impacts ​a ​lot ​more ​if ​you ​do ​work ​collaboratively ​because ​you ​can ​sometimes ​reduce ​the ​time ​and, ​and ​costs ​if ​you ​work ​together ​on ​it. ​So ​yeah, ​I ​think ​sometimes ​being ​like ​that ​hands ​off ​owner ​approach ​is ​not, ​is ​not ​helpful.” — Wendy ItagawaKey Takeaways:The benefits of focusing on a more technical specialization rather than generalizingWhy working on a project for the long term impacts team performance and outcomesHow to foster a collaborative approach even in traditional design-build contractsA master builder's uniquely positive perspective on working in male-dominated environments.The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Wendy Itagawa Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

How can teams take the concept of collaboration beyond lip service and virtue signalling to create stronger, more successful projects? We know that collaboration is the cornerstone of alliance contracting models, but countless research shows us that when it comes to behavioural cohesion, teamwork, and empathy, the type of contract is immaterial—collaborative teams across industries and contract type perform better, see greater successes, and save more money than teams built on competition and infighting.Emily Mahoney and Sarah Laurence, the founders of Mahoney & Matthews Consulting, work with high-performance teams, not only preparing them for the behavioural assessment that will win the project but also instilling the tenets of collaboration to carry all the way through to a successful culmination. Creating a true team takes more than a couple of nights out at the pub. It calls for hard, intentional conversations, deep honesty, and being human.“So ​if ​you ​think ​about ​it, ​all ​leadership ​really ​is, ​is ​a ​set ​of ​behaviours ​that ​are ​used ​in ​a ​certain ​way. ​And ​it's ​not ​exactly ​the ​same ​behaviours ​as ​collaboration. ​They ​can ​obviously, ​they ​obviously ​overlap ​a ​lot. ​But ​collaboration ​as ​well ​is ​a ​set ​of ​behaviours ​that ​are ​used ​in ​certain ​ways. ​So ​in ​terms ​of organizational ​development ​​org ​psych ​behaviours, ​there ​is ​a ​canon ​of ​research ​and ​of ​literature ​and ​there ​are ​people ​who ​spend ​a ​lot ​of ​time ​and ​money ​not ​only ​researching ​these ​things, ​but ​also ​making ​them ​accessible ​to ​people ​through ​books, ​podcasts, ​TED ​talks, ​etc.” - Emily MahoneyKey Takeaways:Why owners and contractors must leave behind competitive preconceptions of the “other side” and find the common groundThe benefit of introducing and continuing real teamwork regardless of the contract modelHow social learning can facilitate high-performing teams, taking them beyond buzzwords to true and lasting collaborationHow the collaborative approach changes what we should expect from leadershipWhat sports teams have to teach us about the importance of continuous and supportive coaching to success.Links Mentioned:Project Oxygen – The 10 Qualities You Need to Be a Great Leader: https://institutesuccess.com/2019/07/project-oxygen-the-10-qualities-you-need-to-be-a-great-leader/University of Warwick research: https://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/id/eprint/60724/1/WRAP_liu_joy_griffiths_ciawes_08.pdfThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.comFollow Emily MahoneyFollow Sarah LaurenceLearn about Mahoney & Matthews Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

It can be easy to forget just how much seemingly unrelated skills and wisdom can inform the work we want to do. Impostor syndrome so often steps in, leaving us doubting our expertise because it doesn't fit precisely with the knowledge we imagine a new position demands and holding us back from pursuing what we really want to achieve.In this episode of Master Builders, Ricccardo and Shormila sit down with Salima Rawji, the President and CEO of York University Development Corporation. A theme of passion, creativity, and positivity runs through Salima's long and varied career. She has experienced first-hand how experience in the public sector can inform the private and non-profit and vice versa and how, all along the way, collaboration makes things better. Salima's willingness to say yes, refusal to accept the no's, and determination to always learn more and know her facts have led to an inspiring and fulfilling career path.”In ​terms ​of ​the ​imposter ​syndrome, ​I ​also ​think ​I ​pair ​it ​with ​the ​fact ​that ​like ​the ​answer ​for ​me ​is ​it ​never ​goes ​away ​because ​I ​think ​there's ​also ​this ​like ​desire ​for ​like ​continual ​growth ​and ​ambition. ​And ​so, perhaps ​I ​didn't ​feel ​it ​as ​much. ​I ​would ​say ​in ​my ​later ​years ​at ​Create TO, ​where ​I ​had ​been ​doing ​that ​work, ​I ​knew ​I ​was ​an ​expert. ​I ​was ​kind ​of ​like ​in ​a ​position ​of ​leadership ​and ​seen ​to ​be ​a ​leader ​by ​the ​political ​side, ​by ​the ​administrative ​side, ​by ​the ​staff ​that ​worked ​for ​me. ​Maybe ​that ​didn't ​exist ​as ​much, ​but ​the ​second ​I ​kind ​of ​took ​the ​step ​to ​grow,  ​it's ​like ​instantly ​back. ​And ​so, ​I ​feel ​like ​maybe ​that's ​just ​a ​part ​of ​what ​growth ​is.” - Salima RawjiKey Takeaways:How cross-sectoral experience can add insight to private sector work.Practical planning for the challenges of changing career directions.The cross-over between impostor syndrome and the lifelong learner.The vital importance of creativity when approaching any project.The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Salima RawjiFollow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.com Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

What if the construction industry is on the brink of a transformation as significant as the rise of the internet? With construction representing a massive portion of global GDP and a growing demand for infrastructure, how can innovation meet the challenge of a shrinking skilled labor force?In this episode, Patric Hellermann and Shub Bhattacharya, co-founders of Foundamental and voices behind the Practical Nerds podcast, sit down with host Riccardo Cosentino to explain why they believe construction is the next major frontier for venture capital. They discuss how venture capital acts as a flywheel—fueling innovation, enabling founders, and driving customer adoption—and why patience and compounding value are crucial in this sector. Patric and Shub highlight the importance of understanding construction's unique complexities, explain why AI should be seen as an enabler rather than the main solution, and examine how hidden innovations and new business models, like cloud manufacturing, are reshaping the industry.“I really feel like we are in what I would describe as the equivalent of the internet 1.0 era in construction. Imagine you are somewhere, say 1994 or 1995, and someone tells you, there's an opportunity to be investing for the next decade or two in the internet. That would be a tremendous opportunity. Perhaps one of the greatest venture opportunities of a lifetime, maybe the greatest, right? I think it feels comparable. It feels very large. ” — Shub BhattacharyaKey TakeawaysThe broader macroeconomic and geopolitical trends influencing construction.The sector's massive demand growth, coupled with a shrinking labor supply, presents a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for innovation.True disruption often starts with solving "boring" but fundamental problems, compounding value over time. How the right investments can transform how we build, maintain, and innovate for the future.The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoListen to the Practical Nerds PodcastLearn About Foundamental Follow Patric HellermannFollow Shub BhattacharyaRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.com Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

In this Master Builders episode of Navigating Major Programmes, hosts Riccardo Cosentino and Shormila Chatterjee challenge the mindset around alliance contracts with Jane Ogilvie, the Alliance Director of Toronto's East Harbour Transit Hub Alliance and a 20-year veteran of major projects management in her home country of Australia. Jane shares the details of this collaborative approach—one that has long been popular in certain industries Down Under but is still quite new in Canada. From method variations to adopting an alliance contract model mid-project to the future of this framework in Canada and beyond, Jane's insights highlight the benefits of abandoning an us-versus-them mentality in favour of more collaboration between project participants.“I've ​worked ​on ​P3s ​and ​alliances ​and ​a ​lot ​in ​between, ​as ​I ​mentioned. ​And ​I ​think ​P3s ​still ​have ​their ​place. ​You ​know, ​I ​think ​you ​need ​a ​mix ​of ​the ​different ​styles ​of ​contracts, ​and ​you ​need ​to ​look ​at ​the ​risk ​profile ​of ​a ​project ​to ​see ​which ​one ​makes ​sense. ​You ​know, there are ​some ​types ​of ​contract ​where ​I ​would ​always ​say, ​you ​know, ​a ​P3 ​is ​probably ​a ​better ​model. ​And ​then ​there's ​ones ​that ​I'd ​say, ​obviously ​an ​alliance ​is ​a ​better ​way ​to ​go ​as ​an ​outcome. ​So ​as ​an ​owner, ​I ​think ​you ​need ​to ​look ​at ​that ​spectrum ​of ​where ​is ​the ​risk ​profile? ​How ​much ​of ​the ​risk ​can ​you ​share ​versus ​what's ​still ​a ​retained ​risk ​that ​you ​need ​to ​retain? ​As ​an ​owner, ​you ​can't ​push ​everything ​onto ​a ​contract.” - Jane OgilvieKey Takeaways:The importance of having a legal framework to support collaboration in projects.The demographic differences in the soft skills that best serve collaborative contract participants.The benefits of combining and coordinating multiple alliances in a multi-discipline, large-scale project.How alliance contracts can take project value beyond capital cost.How to determine the ideal methodology for different types of projects.The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoFollow Jane OgilvieRead Riccardo's latest a www.riccardocosentino.com Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

Host Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Luigi La Corte, CEO and Co-Founder of Provision, a Toronto-based AI construction technology company. Luigi recounts his journey from working alongside his father's contracting business to a role in P3 (Public-Private Partnerships) at Plenary, where he observed firsthand the mounting costs of construction disputes and claims. Driven by a desire to create positive change, Luigi launched Provision in 2022, evolving the venture through several pivots to its current mission—helping contractors and subcontractors identify and mitigate contractual risks early and effectively. Together, Riccardo and Luigi discuss the promise of AI in reducing disputes, optimizing processes, and ultimately aiming to put more profit into contractors' pockets, thereby fueling a more innovative and rewarding construction industry for all." I do think the industry is very receptive. They want to solve problems. And I don't think AI is a lot of hype. I think what it's done, especially in construction, is it's helped people standardize. One of the biggest problems in construction is that a lot of the information is contained within PDFs and unstructured documents. But now you can create a taxonomy for each of those things and plug them into, you know, the respective workflow. That's magic. And then also, LLMs can emulate some level of human thought and exercise some discretion in a very specific sense." – Luigi La CorteKey TakeawaysWhy construction claims are costly: they consume 2–4% of project budgets, making early risk identification essential to save time and money.How AI can streamline error-prone document reviews, improving accuracy and project efficiency How market feedback drives product evolution: Iterating based on real-world pain points leads to solutions that better meet user needs.Why AI won't solve every dispute is because its strength lies in reducing errors, identifying risks, and augmenting human expertise for higher-level tasks.How contractor profitability fuels industry transformation: reinvesting gains in technology sparks innovationThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoFollow Luigi La CorteExplore Provision, Luigi's AI-driven solution to reduce risk in construction.Read Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.com Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee sit down with Melissa DeMarco, a seasoned construction and infrastructure leader with a PhD in construction management. With over 15 years of industry experience, Melissa has led projects across industrial, institutional, mining, and infrastructure sectors. Currently a partner at Accuracy, a boutique consulting firm, she has played a pivotal role in expanding the company's infrastructure and energy practice in Canada and globally. She delves into her academic journey, including her groundbreaking PhD research on global project networks, which allowed her to work with major industry leaders and analyze the mindset shifts required for success in complex, multi-location projects."People think of construction as a hard science, but then I think the angle that you took, which is sort of the same angle that I studied on, it's a social science, because ultimately there's so many people, and as soon as you have an aggregation of so many people, it then becomes a social environment, rather than a hardcore technical environment." – Melissa DeMarcoKey Takeaways:Melissa's career path from academia to industry has shaped her unique approach to infrastructure leadership.Success in major projects relies on both technical expertise and the ability to manage people effectively.Building a business from the ground up requires a mix of strategic vision, resilience, and strong relationships.Advancing in male-dominated industries takes both hard work and the confidence to advocate for leadership opportunities.The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoFollow Shormila ChatterjeeFollow Melissa Di MarcoRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.com Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.

Riccardo Cosentino welcomes Ali Mafi, an industry veteran whose career spans construction, automotive, and consultancy. Ali shares his journey from site engineer at Heathrow Airport's Terminal 4 to leading transformative project management practices at Balfour Beatty, where he introduced innovative methodologies like critical chain management and lean principles. Drawing comparisons with the automotive sector, Ali emphasizes how better project monitoring, bottleneck identification, and accountability can improve outcomes in construction."My definition of project management is knowing the impact of every task on the end date, every day. If you don't know that, you cannot manage the project. You're managing tasks, or you're managing resources, but you're not managing the project." – Ali MafiKey TakeawaysReshaping project management starts with daily monitoring of tasks driving the end date.Time is the largest cost in construction projects, yet it is often mismanaged or overlooked.Lessons from industries like automotive manufacturing highlight the value of lean principles and shorter feedback loops.Complexity and uncertainty are inevitable, but they can be mitigated by prioritizing work and adopting adaptive strategies.Links MentionedThe Goal by Eliyahu M Goldratt https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/113934.The_Goal If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Ali Mafi on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ali-mafi-345821/Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this Master Builders episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee sit down with previous colleague and friend Chantal Sorel, a seasoned leader whose 30-year career spans architecture, project management, and executive roles across industries including infrastructure, mining, and social infrastructure. With extensive international experience and a commitment to delivering value through challenging projects, Chantal reflects on her journey and shares lessons from managing high-stakes initiatives like the McGill University Health Centre.Chantal discusses the importance of breaking barriers as a woman in construction, fostering ethical collaboration, and adapting project management practices to meet evolving challenges. Her insights highlight the critical role of leadership, strategy, and societal impact in shaping the future of the industry."Project management is about maximizing the result with the resources you have. That's it. My definition of project management is maximizing the result with the resources you have and using them in the best combination—the right capacity and to the right objective and the needs that you have to fulfill, and not detracting from that. And this is what it is about. So for me, it's always been a passion. I said I'm a builder. And of course, I've practiced infrastructure all my career because, for me, it was a way to deliver value, value for society. I'm a bit of an idealist, but I think that society needs value, and we're there to deliver value." – Chantal Sorel Key TakeawaysHow resilience and expertise helped Chantal navigate leadership in traditionally male-dominated industries.Why delivering value through infrastructure projects requires balancing strategy, collaboration, and societal impact.How global experience and adaptability shape effective project management practices.The evolving role of technology, including AI, in addressing the complexities of modern mega-projects.The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our community via LinkedIn:Follow Navigating Major ProgrammesFollow Riccardo CosentinoFollow Chantal Sorel Follow Shormila ChatterjeeRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.com Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

Welcome back to Navigating Major Programmes and welcome to season 3 of our podcast! In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino launches the third season by reflecting on the podcast's journey and setting the stage for an exciting year ahead. From embracing the challenges of imposter syndrome to exploring transformative industry trends, Riccardo shares his vision for 2025 and how the podcast will continue to elevate the conversation around major programmes. “I believe this is the year where technologies like AI, machine learning, and predictive analytics are no longer just the ‘next big thing' but are truly embraced on a mass scale across the industry. It's no longer about being curious about these technologies; it's about fully accepting and harnessing their potential to drive real change. And that change will define the future of how we operate—from project management to risk assessment and, especially, preventive maintenance.” – Riccardo Cosentino Key TakeawaysThe transformative potential of AI and predictive analytics in preventive maintenance.Insights from industry leaders on balancing innovation with legacy systems.Embracing new skills and challenges for personal and professional growth.A sneak peek at the new Preventive Maintenance vodcast series. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino wraps up season two by revisiting the key themes and groundbreaking insights that defined the season. From the transformative power of AI in project management to the essential role of human collaboration, Riccardo explores how major programmes are evolving and shares his vision for the future.This season featured distinguished guests who brought fresh perspectives on technology, leadership, stakeholder management, and public perception. Riccardo reflects on these conversations, highlighting how AI-driven tools, digital twins, and predictive analytics are revolutionizing infrastructure projects while emphasizing the enduring importance of empathy, trust, and inclusivity.“While AI and technology are reshaping how we plan and execute major programmes, it's important to remember that success in infrastructure isn't just about the tools we use—it's about the people who bring these projects to life. As we navigated the complexities of infrastructure, we often touched on the human element that underpins successful project delivery.” – Riccardo Cosentino Key TakeawaysThe power of AI in forecasting and risk managementFostering collaboration, diversity, and resilience within teams.Reflections on trust and allyship as essential components of successful infrastructure projects.The critical role of societal acceptance for the adoption of technologies like urban air mobility. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Alan Mosca, CTO and Co-Founder of nPlan, to explore the intersection of artificial intelligence and project management. Alan shares his journey, from founding nPlan in 2017 to transforming how major programmes forecast and mitigate project risks using AI-powered tools.Alan dives deep into the technicalities of nPlan's innovative approach to project scheduling, risk assessment, and portfolio management. Through real-world applications and fascinating anecdotes, he discusses how AI can turn vast amounts of project data into actionable insights, paving the way for more proactive and informed decision-making in the infrastructure and construction sectors. “You think about like you're starting a business, right? You start from what's a problem that you want to solve. And so we started from the end effectively. Problem that we want to solve is: why is it that when humans say that they're going to build something or do a project it then almost invariably takes twice as long and four times the amount of money than you said it was going to take.” – Alan Mosca Key Takeaways:How AI models like nPlan's transform static project schedules into dynamic tools that anticipate risks and propose proactive solutionsHow leveraging historical project data helps refine forecasts and improve project outcomesThe role of culture in project success—aligning incentives and fostering transparency between teams and stakeholders can break down silos and create trustUnlocking efficiency with AI-generated schedules—could this give your team the edge in competitive bidding and execution? If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. https://lovethepodcast.com/NavigatingMajorProgrammesPod The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Alan Mosca on Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/nitbix/Explore the nPlan website at https://www.nplan.io/Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/navigating-major-programmes/Follow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/cosentinoriccardo/Read Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this special Master Builders episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee are joined by Marianne Smith, a distinguished partner at Blakes National Infrastructure Group, to celebrate her remarkable career and pay tribute to Judy Wilson, a trailblazer in Canada's infrastructure industry. Judy, a world-renowned procurement lawyer and a champion for diversity, left an indelible mark on the sector before her passing. This episode honors her legacy while highlighting Marianne's own contributions as one of Judy's closest mentees.With over 20 years of experience in infrastructure and procurement law, Marianne has played a pivotal role in shaping public-private partnerships (P3s) across Canada. She shares her journey from working alongside Judy to becoming a leader in the field, emphasizing how mentorship and advocacy for diversity have been central to her success."Judy was a champion of diversity. She was an ally before we had the nomenclature of what an ally is.  She used her power, authority, influence. Not just selfishly, but also to promote, women, people of color, anyone who might've felt, that they didn't belong in the boardroom or around the table, talking about tough, infrastructure type issues. She really did impact so many people in that way." – Marianne SmithKey Takeaways:Judy's approach challenges with creativity, focus on client needs, and advocate for diversity to drive meaningful changeHow to leverage your expertise to develop frameworks and processes that can become industry benchmarks.How to build inclusive environments that encourage collaboration and empower diverse teams to succeed.Why investing in mentorship by sharing knowledge and supporting the growth of future leaders. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community:Follow Marianne Smith on LinkedInFollow Shormila Chatterjee on LinkedInFollow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at www.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Mikaila Kukurudza to explore the significance of thought leadership—and some of the biggest mistakes professionals make on LinkedIn.Mikaila Kukurudza, founder of Colada Marketing Ltd., has been instrumental in helping both people and brands tell their stories, including working with Riccardo over the last three years. If you've come across any of Riccardo's LinkedIn articles, chances are, Mikaila is the pen behind them. Is hiring a ghostwriter unethical? Why does personal branding matter for the infrastructure industry—and beyond? And how do social media platforms shape major programs? Riccardo and Mikaila dive into all this and more.“You already have a personal brand, whether you like it or not. It's just a matter of whether you're going to define and refine it into something you're happy with. For anyone listening—even if you're not actively posting on LinkedIn—you already have a personal brand. It's up to you to shape it into how you want to be represented online.” — Mikaila Kukurudza Key Takeaways:Riccardo's thought leadership journey: from posting to podcasting.The controversy and value of ghostwriting.Grab a pen, here's your 10-minute LinkedIn checklist for building your online presence.The vulnerability of personal branding—do vanity analytics really matter? If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community:Colada Marketing Ltd. LinkedIn Learning – Becoming a Thought LeaderFollow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Annie Goodchild, a passionate advocate for inclusivity in major projects. As a trans, non-binary professional in the infrastructure industry, Annie shares insights on industry resilience, stakeholder management, and the value of diverse perspectives in shaping successful projects. The duo discusses all this, plus the role of public inquiries in major projects. Annie Goodchild brings a wealth of experience in communications and stakeholder outreach, driving strategic initiatives for complex infrastructure projects across Canada. As the Director of Communications and Stakeholder Outreach at Kiewit, they currently lead efforts on Ottawa's Confederation Line extensions, focusing on building essential relationships for project success. Known for their commitment to teamwork, learning, and connection, Annie believes that true progress happens when everyone moves forward together.“We are the eyes and ears in many ways of how the project's going to do everywhere else, but in the very boardroom that it's executed from, and that those outside forces, the climate around the boardroom affects the boardroom more than sometimes they'd like. So let us help. Let us be in the room. Let us share our understanding of what's coming and help us plan a mitigation around any problems we might see, because that's our ultimate benefit to the major project." – Annie Goodchild Key Takeaways:Annie's journey into major projects and the importance of diversity in creating resilient teams. How proactive and transparent stakeholder management can build trust and transform community relationships, revealing insights that could redefine your approach to major projects.How embracing diverse perspectives enhances the problem-solving capabilities of major projects.The role of allies in creating a more inclusive and supportive industry for marginalized groups, from a trans perspective. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.Mentioned Links:How Big Things Get Done by Bent Flyvbjerg and Dan GardnerThe conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Annie Goodchild on LinkedInFollow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedIn Read Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this episode of Mastering Major Projects, Riccardo Cosentino and co-host Shormila Chatterjee sit down with Marni Dicker, a dynamic and bilingual senior executive recognized as one of Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women and one of the Top 25 Most Influential Lawyers in the country. Marni's accolades include the General Counsel Award for Business Achievement and the Premier's Award of Excellence from the Province of Alberta for her groundbreaking work on the Calgary Courthouse Public-Private Partnership.With an impressive background in corporate law and a strategic leadership role in the Canadian Premier League, Marni shares her extraordinary journey from criminal law to becoming a transformative figure in infrastructure and business strategy. Known for her ability to deliver projects on time and within budget, she discusses the importance of diversity and inclusion in leadership and her commitment to mentoring the next generation of female leaders."Remember, I knew nothing about construction and infrastructure engineering, and they would ask me a very substantive question. What would you do if this happened on one of your sites? And I did the following. I would certainly call external counsel who is specialized in that area, and I would ensure that we got the best advice. Basically, I was punting it down the line because I had no idea, none, how to answer their questions. What I quickly learned is that's what they liked. No one is expected to know everything you are supposed to be able to know how to use your resources, how to get the right expert advice." – Marni Dicker Key Takeaways:Career Evolution: Marni's path from criminal law to leading major infrastructure projects, showcasing her adaptability and leadership across industries.Public-Private Partnerships: Marni's experience in structuring award-winning public-private partnerships, including her work on the Calgary Courthouse project.Leadership in Infrastructure Development: From leading infrastructure for the Canadian Premier League to managing multimillion-dollar projects, Marni's strategic and operational expertise is highlighted across sectors.Mentorship and Diversity: Her role as a mentor and advocate for diversity, pushing for gender equality in leadership roles within traditionally male-dominated industries.Plus, insight into how Marni successfully balanced her demanding career while prioritizing her family life. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Marni Dicker on LinkedInFollow Shormila Chatterjee on LinkedinFollow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino dives into an engaging conversation with AI visionary Dev Amratia, uncovering how AI is revolutionizing the infrastructure industry. Together, they explore the game-changing potential of harnessing data from over 760,000 global projects to forecast outcomes with precision, drastically improving risk management and efficiency. Dev reveals the untapped possibilities of AI, from smarter decision-making to reshaping the very way projects are delivered, offering insights that challenge traditional approaches and inspire a bold new future for infrastructure. "What if we had the experience of 760,000 projects between the two of us and then worked on a project, wouldn't we be hundreds of times more effective than we currently are?" – Dev Amratia Dev is the Co-Founder and CEO of nPlan, where he is at the forefront of rethinking how project outcomes are forecasted and addressing risk in the built environment. With an aerospace engineering background and 9 years of capital project management experience, he combines both technical and commercial expertise to tackle complex challenges. Dev also co-authored the UK Government's AI Review (2017) and is a Chartered Engineer (CEng) through the Royal Institute of Mechanical Engineers. Key Takeaways:Why AI's full potential in project timelines, risks, and improvements is still untappedHow can the infrastructure industry overcome inefficiency and poor risk management when outdated methods, like fixed-price contracts based on incomplete dataThe cultural shift  needed for AI adoption, with ground-level resistance requiring both top-down and bottom-up strategiesData-driven decision-making is crucial for the infrastructure industry, as AI-facilitated collaboration and data sharing can improve project outcomes and reduce adversarial approaches. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Dev Amratia on LinkedInLearn more about nPlanFollow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino sits down with Vickie Turnbull, a trailblazer in infrastructure finance with over 35 years of experience in the banking industry. Vickie shares her unique journey from corporate banking to becoming a key figure in infrastructure finance, shedding light on her extensive work with leading Canadian banks like TD Securities and RBC. Now, in what she calls "Vickie 2.0," she remains deeply involved in the sector, leveraging her expertise in advisory roles and as a board member for Infrastructure Ontario.Vickie also dives into her commitment to mentorship and advocacy for women in infrastructure, reflecting on her role in founding the Women's Infrastructure Network (WIN) and Women in Energy Canada (WIECAN). She emphasizes the importance of diversity and inclusion in infrastructure and discusses how these networks have evolved to support and empower women in the industry."I think that's one of the things I really love about the whole infrastructure space is it takes a village to get these transactions done. I think that's been part of the fun part for me is that I have so many different people that I talk through as I'm working on a transaction. Right? And you've got all these people that you can interact with. And again, you get that whole diversity. People are looking at things from various different ways. And at the end of the day, we've got these fabulous assets that are getting built for the use of Canadians and replacing, you know, things that really needed to be replaced. There's a lot more that still needs to be done. So I'm a part of it, but I don't see myself, like I, it's hard and I don't know whether that's just how I think through things, how I look at it, but I do really, like, it does take a village to get these things done and I couldn't do it alone on my own. Absolutely not." – Vickie TurnbullKey Takeaways:Vickie's journey from corporate banking to a leadership role in infrastructure financeThe genesis and growth of the Women's Infrastructure Network and Women in Energy CanadaInsights into navigating the complexities of infrastructure finance and project managementThe evolving role of mentorship and diversity in the infrastructure sectorStrategies for fostering innovation and resilience in major programmes If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Vickie Turnbull on LinkedInFollow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com   Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

Host Riccardo Cosentino explores untapped knowledge in project management, drawing from his Oxford insights. This episode of Navigating Major Programmes delves into integrating social sciences and complex adaptive systems, addressing how minor changes can lead to significant impacts due to project complexity. Join Riccardo as he navigates through the complexities of project management, offering innovative solutions to embrace and manage these challenges effectively in a new mini series: The Science of Complexity. Could your approach to project management be outdated?"I am convinced that, although we have achieved many incredible things already as project leaders and managers, there's something missing, something that's already out there in the world's knowledge that we're not using well enough." – Riccardo Cosentino Steps for improving the management and understanding of complex, large-scale infrastructure projects:Step one: Social sciences and complex adaptive systems.Step two: Systems thinking.Step three: A Betagon chart.Step four: Finding a success criterion.Step five: Network graphs.Step six: Higher level network graphs.Step seven: Digital twins.Step eight: The Incerto.Step nine: Digital twins.Step ten: Composable systems.Step eleven: Semantics and Ontologies Mentioned Links:  The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization (Recommended Reading)Amazon.caAmazon.comHow Understanding Systems Thinking Changed My Career (Riccardo's LinkedIn Article)Organizing for Work (Recommended Reading) Amazon.caAmazon.comNassim Nicholas Taleb's Published Works (Recommended Incerto Reading)Amazon.caAmazon.comDigital Construction Ontologies   If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

In this episode of Navigating Major Programmes, Riccardo Cosentino chats with fellow Oxford MMPM alumnus David Porter about the game-changing potential of artificial intelligence in construction and project management. David shares how AI can drastically improve project forecasts and decision-making, even in an industry slow to adopt new technologies. He also discusses innovative strategies from his company, Octant AI, that tackle data management challenges and boost project performance. The AI revolution is here—will you be ready? Should AI be considered a general-purpose technology (GPT)? "So, you know, this is a huge, huge change that we are facing. And there is going to be massive disruption, you know, like, I mean, there just is. And so those who learn to use the tool, like those who learned how to use an internal combustion engine to put an airplane in the sky, those people are the people who are going to be our leaders." – David Porter David Porter brings a wealth of experience from the construction industry, having spent his entire career in this field. As the co-founder of Octant AI, he has been at the forefront of developing AI tools that enhance project performance and decision-making. His insights into the challenges and opportunities of integrating AI into construction projects provide a compelling narrative for the future of project management. Key Takeaways:The challenges and opportunities of applying AI in the construction industryUnderstanding the capabilities and applications of Octant AI's predictive toolsOvercoming data management hurdles in construction projectsThe future of AI in major programmes and its potential to revolutionize the industryPractical advice for integrating AI tools into existing project management frameworks If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow David Porter on LinkedInFollow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com   Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

Welcome to a special collaboration episode of the Navigating Major Programmes podcast featuring Henry Fenby-Taylor from the Digital Twin Fan Club. Joining them is Associate Professor Jenn MacArthur from Toronto Metropolitan University to discuss digital twins in major projects. They delve into complex programme management, emerging digital trends, AI's transformative power, and essential leadership for billion-dollar projects. The trio also explores the nuances of building information management (BIM), digital twins' practical uses, and sustainable practices shaping future cities.   “But what if you could actually transfer learning from previous buildings into that one, from previous genericized systems into a new system. And you built in this online learning capability, that your twin was actually capable of learning what was typical for the building as the data came in. And then adapting those algorithms to be able to tune them to that building, with very, very little human intervention.” –  Jenn MacArthur Key Takeaways:Implementing digital twin technology in major programmes (real-time monitoring, predictive maintenance, and improved lifecycle management)The role of local governance in driving sustainability initiatives and how city-led regulations and bylaws significantly influence the outcomeInterdisciplinary collaboration and the integration of BIM and AI to enhance decision-makingAdaptable and scalable solutions Jenn MacArthur is an Associate Professor at Toronto Metropolitan University, specializing in mechanical engineering and sustainable infrastructure. Her career spans from energy and water management in India to leadership roles in design engineering and construction in Canada. In academia, she focuses on Building Information Management (BIM), AI, and digital twins, aiming to optimize building operations and energy use through advanced technology applications.Henry Fenby-Taylor is the CEO of Athenophilia, where he assists clients on their digital transformation journey, creating software applications, digital twins, and information management capabilities. He also hosts the Digital Twin Fan Club podcast, exploring topics related to digital twins, AI, and the broader infrastructure industry. Henry is engaged in driving innovation and managing change within organizations, working closely with stakeholders to accelerate change and drive innovation.  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

Welcome to a very unique episode of Navigating Major Programmes, in which Riccardo Cosentino shares his biggest insecurities and how overcoming them kickstarted the turning point of his career in major programmes. As Riccardo shares his upbringing in Italy and how he ended up at an Oxford University graduation ceremony dumbfounded by how he got there, listen very carefully—and trust us, listen to the end for a shocking conclusion.“My respect for Oxford diminished simply because I had fooled them into giving me a degree. How could the heart of world academics be so easily bamboozled by me?” –  Riccardo Cosentino Key Takeaways:The root of imposter syndromeWhy imposter syndrome and burnout go hand in handHow redefining success ultimately leads to more successAnd finally, did AI dupe you? And what does this mean for the future of not only our industry, but all industries. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.comRead Riccardo's article I Duped Oxford for the full story.  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

Riccardo Cosentino and his co-host Corail Bourrelier Fabiani welcome Harvey Maylor, their esteemed professor from the MSc Major Programme Management at Oxford, to discuss the transformative power of systems thinking in major project management. Harvey Maylor, a leading academic and practitioner, shares his profound insights on harnessing systems thinking to navigate and resolve the intricate challenges inherent in large-scale projects. “We just make life flipping difficult. And that, for me, is a great frustration that you see really bright, really energetic people really going at a problem, but because of the way the work is organized, it's just really difficult and that their insights, intelligence, energy just gets burnt up by pointless organizational things that don't add any value to them, the organization or the end user or indeed society. ” –  Harvey Maylor Harvey Maylor combines over 25 years of industry experience with academic research to bring a unique perspective to project management. As an Associate Fellow at Saïd Business School, University of Oxford, and an Honorary Professor at the University of Warwick, Harvey focuses on project management, complexity, and performance. He advocates for practical methodologies like Agile and Lean to enhance project outcomes across various sectors. Key Takeaways:Understanding the fundamental principles of systems thinking and how they apply to major projectsTechniques to identify, analyze, and manage the complexities inherent in large-scale projectsExploring how strategic misrepresentation and optimism bias affect project estimates and decision-makingThe application of Agile, Lean, and other practical methodologies to manage and mitigate project risksEffective strategies for managing diverse stakeholder groups and navigating political influences in large-scale projects If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Corail Bourrelier Fabiani on LinkedInFollow Harvey Maylor on LinkedInRead Harvey Maylor's Published WorkFollow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com  Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

On this week's special episode of Navigating Major Programmes Riccardo Cossentino shares a conversation from his other podcast, A WINning Perspective: The WIN Canada Podcast. Riccardo sits down with three nominees of The Women's Infrastructure Network (WIN) Canada WIN Awards: Divya Shah, Tamara Vrooman, and Kimberly Doran.Despite working in senior roles in a male-dominated industry not designed for them, the panelists have achieved success and professional recognition. They share valuable insights and advice for transforming the industry from dry to progressive, and pose the question: Is it a dumb question or the next revolution in the industry? Along with expanding professional networks and securing sponsorships, these three leaders in major programmes share their hopes and actionables for women, and allies, in the industry.“We're just talking about infrastructure, which is about design and about building things and about the future. Yet, we really need to design our organizations for that future. And what I find is a lot of the time we're trying to put women into roles that were not designed for us…We have to change the way that we design our organizations so that they're fit for the purpose that we want them to serve, which is to get more diverse people, including women into leadership roles, particularly in an area like infrastructure.” — Tamara Vrooman Key Takeaways:The hesitancy of failing, the importance of taking risks as a woman in megaprojectsHow do we empower women to get into decision-making roles; rewriting roles designed for men  Taking mentorship further with sponsorship Divya Shah is the Managing Director at the Canada Infrastructure Bank, leading investments in trade, transportation, and critical minerals. With 18 years in project finance, Divya shapes investment strategies, oversees business development, and manages financial structuring to asset management. She began her career at Infrastructure Ontario during its early days of public-private partnerships, marking her start in transformative infrastructure projects. Tamara Vrooman serves as the President and CEO of Vancouver International Airport, the second-largest international airport in Canada and home to the largest building in British Columbia. With a rich background in banking and finance, Tamara has financed numerous public and private infrastructure projects. Her extensive experience includes roles as the Chair of the Canada Infrastructure Bank board and Deputy Minister of Finance for British Columbia, overseeing Partnerships BC. Kimberly Doran is the Vice President and Geotechnical Practice Lead at AtkinsRéalis. As a passionate advocate for gender parity, she co-founded and chairs the ExcELLEnce Employee Resource Group, dedicated to promoting a diverse and inclusive culture. Outside of her corporate responsibilities, Kimberly is deeply involved in her field, serving as the Finance Director for the Regina Geotechnical Group and participating in the Transportation Committee of the Saskatchewan Association of Consulting Engineers (ACEC-SK). If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Divya Shah on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/divya-shah-cfa-4a116b3/Follow Tamara Vrooman on Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamara-vrooman-1044b425a/Follow Kimberly Doran on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberly-doran-32888196/Follow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com   Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. Licensed through PremiumBeat.DISCLAIMER: The opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints expressed by the hosts and guests on this podcast do not necessarily represent or reflect the official policy, opinions, beliefs, and viewpoints of Disenyo.co LLC and its employees.

Riccardo Cosentino takes an ongoing LinkedIn debate with Ian Heptinstall live in this episode of Navigating Major Programmes for a fascinating conversation with one common goal: to elevate major programmes. The pair discuss the use of reference class forecasting, the predominance of strategic misrepresentation, and optimism bias during project estimation—both drawing on their practical and academic experiences to substantiate their points. “One of my concerns, if we think the problem with projects is that our estimates are too light and the answer is to increase the estimates, is that it is a vicious spiral. That just means expected costs will go up and up and up over time. If we separate the three elements of time, and think maybe we missed the target, not because the target was impossible, but our methods of execution were such that it made it very hard to achieve the target. That actually gives us an opening for a virtuous cycle because there are, so called, black swans that show that the same estimates are achievable and can be done reliably. ” –   Ian Heptinstall   Ian Heptinstall combines over 35 years of industry experience with academic expertise, to bring a unique perspective to CapEx & Construction Project Management and Procurement & Supply Chain. As an Associate Professor at the University of Birmingham, Ian focuses on practical methodologies like Theory of Constraints (TOC), critical chain, and collaborative procurement, which he advocates for practically improving performance in various industries. Key Takeaways:The importance of focusing on execution and preparation over quality of estimations  Tipping the Iron Law on its head with collaborative contracting, IPD and alliance contracting  Reference class forecasting in project management: advantages and limitationsImpact of strategic misrepresentation and optimism bias; the political influence on project estimates and management  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox. The conversation doesn't stop here—connect and converse with our LinkedIn community: Follow Ian Heptinstall on LinkedInFollow Navigating Major Programmes on LinkedInFollow Riccardo Cosentino on LinkedInRead Riccardo's latest at wwww.riccardocosentino.com Transcript:Riccardo Cosentino  0:05  You're listening to Navigating Major Programmes, a podcast that aims to elevate the conversations happening in the infrastructure industry and inspire you to have a more efficient approach within it. I'm your host, Riccardo Cosentino. I bring over 20 years of Major Programme Management experience. Most recently, I graduated from Oxford University Saïd Business School, which shook my belief when it comes to navigating major programmes. Now it's time to shake yours. Join me in each episode as I press the industry experts about the complexity of Major Programme Management, emerging digital trends and the critical leadership required to approach these multibillion-dollar projects. Let's see where the conversation takes us.   Riccardo Cosentino  0:53  Hello, everyone, and welcome to a new episode of Navigating Major Programmes. I'm here today with Ian Heptinstall, who is Associate Professor in Programme and Project Management at the University of Birmingham and he's joining me today from Birmingham, I assume. How are you doing, Ian?   Ian Heptinstall  1:09  Hi, Riccardo. Not quite Birmingham, I live in Cheshire. So I'm closer to Manchester or Liverpool than Birmingham.   Riccardo Cosentino  1:15  Okay.   Ian Heptinstall  1:16  But fortunately, most of my students aren't at Birmingham either, they're all over the world. Riccardo Cosentino  1:21  And I mean, maybe just for the audience, you and I connected a few times on LinkedIn exchanging views, exchanging comments on various posts on various topics. And so I think we finally, I think you finally prompted that we could have a more productive conversation on the podcast rather than on comments on LinkedIn, which is always helpful, but probably not the most conducive way of having a conversation. And so why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?   Ian Heptinstall  1:48  Exactly, thank you, Riccardo. I am Ian Heptinstall. I'm a late career academic, I've been working in academia at the University of Birmingham now for five years, primarily in a teaching role, although I've started to add some research elements to that. And I currently teach on an MSc program that's delivered to part-time students who study by distance learning. So my students are working in project organizations on projects all around the world. And they want to add to that master's level insight. And as we were chatting too before, our focus in the UK is that at master's level, the key component of that is critical thinking, critical analysis, critical thinking, understanding the evidence behind ideas. But before I joined academia, I had 35 years or so in practical experience. I qualified as an engineer. I started working in the chemical industry in the mid-80s, mostly in project-related roles, either managing small projects or manufacturing facilities, and managing larger projects, being a technical expert, often supporting projects. That was back in the days when project owners had a self-delivery capability, so they had their own engineering organizations. Interestingly, in the 90s, the company I worked for was known as ICI, which doesn't really exist anymore. But it was the third largest chemical company in the world, so-called bellwether of the U.K. business environment and the U.K. stock market. But during the 90s, it was one of the many organizations that started to sort of what Professor Stuart Reid calls "hollowing out," that in-house capability of employees was reduced with a view to what we can but that service in as and when we needed it. And actually, in the late 90s and early 2000s, client organizations could buy that in because the contractors and consultancies had ex-employees there who had got that 20 years of experience of how to think like a project owner and what impact that had on managing the project through its own lifecycle. So that gave me the chance to see projects from the owner's perspective and a supplier's perspective. Later in the 90s, I was involved in one of the first collaborative contracted project alliances in the U.K. that wasn't in the oil and gas industry. And now, I don't understand why all project procurement is not done collaboratively using project alliances. But that's not the topic for tonight's discussion.  Riccardo Cosentino  5:08  Yeah, that's another podcast. That's another long podcast. You and I exchanged on this a few times.   Ian Heptinstall  5:14  Yeah, definitely.   Riccardo Cosentino  5:17  So what are we talking about today, then? Ian Heptinstall  5:20  We, as you said, we had some chats on LinkedIn about the ideas of the use of reference class forecasting, the predominance of strategic misrepresentation, optimism bias during project estimation, all wrapped up into what I've started calling the optimistic estimate hypothesis. In the debts, a proposed way that project environments work. The idea being because the data shows that most estimates, sorry, most projects fail to achieve their targets, Flyvbjerg made famous as the Iron Law of projects, was the Iron Law of mega project management, but became projects, that is about over time, over budget, under benefits, over and over again. And I think there's a significantly strong range of data that says a large proportion of projects fail to hit their own targets. So my argument wasn't with that conclusion. What I'm calling the optimistic estimate hypothesis says the reason for that is that the targets themselves were always impossible to achieve. And because they're impossible to achieve, that's why we never hit them. And therefore, the solution to that is to stop impossible targets being associated with projects when they get approved. And then the proposed intervention is using a technique known as reference class forecasting or a variation of reference class forecasting. So not always based on absolute values but relative percentage performance, which is another concern of the implementation of the method. It basically says, let's make sure that the target is at least compatible to targets we've had in the past. And on face value, I've got no issue with that. If, like me, you've come up from fairly mature project management and engineering environments, one of the estimating methods that has always been used is based on past performance. Riccardo Cosentino  7:56  Benchmarking.   Ian Heptinstall  7:57  Yeah. It's not performance benchmarking in the true sense of the term, it's taking your own data and seeing how compatible it is. Parametric estimating is a method, so long as you've got the feedback cycles from actuals that keep your estimating databases up to date. Now maybe tying into the observation about the hollowing out of project-owning organizations, maybe that feedback loop of capturing actuals and feeding it back into estimating data was broken. I don't know, you're probably more closely associated with that than I am. Professional estimators should not be naive of real estimating data in the past. I can't see it just as being biased from professional estimators. Amateur estimators, I can understand how they would be naive and miss things, but not professionals. Riccardo Cosentino  9:02  Look, I'm a big subscriber of your theory. I am 100% in agreement with you. In fact, I think your theory or thesis has got a lot of strength and in fact.   Ian Heptinstall  9:21  Can we clarify which one because I don't think the optimistic estimate hypothesis is valid. I'm just describing what it is. We're here for me to fix some holes in it.   Riccardo Cosentino  9:31  So, I actually think it's, I think it's actually very valid. And the reason I think it's very valid, because in my experience, I have always looked at a project, you know I've 25 years experience in this industry, and I always wondered from a purely technical standpoint, if you had unlimited access to data or if you have a lot of data and you have a lot of experience and you have a lot of experienced individuals, you can approximate an estimate. However, historically, or my experience was that all of the projects I worked on were over budget, all of them. So I could not understand how very capable, very intelligent human beings, with great experience could not estimate a closer to the actual. Because statistically speaking, I mean, if it was random, it will be 50/50. Right? You know, sometimes.   Ian Heptinstall  10:33  Why? There's many phenomena in the world that are not normally distributed. So why would we expect it if it was really random? But I don't think it is random? I think it's (inaudible). Riccardo Cosentino  10:48  I don't think it is random either. But that's what I'm saying. It's like, if it was random, it would be 50/50. Right? So if he was really, if it was impossible to estimate something, or really, really, really difficult to estimate something, then it will be a random outcome, which will be a 50/50. But that's not a problem we have because the majority of the projects are over budget, right? It's not, or at least the mega project. Let me define it a bit, a bit better, it's not really the mega project that I have experience with.   Ian Heptinstall  11:25  Shall I give you a mega project that smashed the reference class?   Riccardo Cosentino  11:31  Yes.   Ian Heptinstall  11:33  Anyone who travels a lot long distances will know Embraer who work along with Bombardier, make the sort of medium-sized passenger jets, with Boeing and Airbus on the much bigger jet. The reference class for designing, developing and bringing to operations a new passenger jet was between 80 and 100 months. And in the new jets that have been produced the century since the turn of the millennium, many have estimated six years, but they've all taken about eight years. Embraer estimated five years and completed the project seven weeks early. So had they planned and achieved to the reference class, they'd have brought the second generation E-jets, the E2 jets to market just before COVID struck. As it is now, the E2 jets have had, for them, record sales performance and one of the most efficient in their class on the market at the moment. So they didn't follow the reference class. And it's extremely complex to about a four to $5 billion project. Riccardo Cosentino  13:08  And I don't, okay, I think, I think, I don't, I think we were saying, I think I was trying to explain why I believe that the, how do you call it, the optimism estimate hypothesis, because it resonates with, why it resonates with me is because I think there is something systemic in the way the estimates are put together. I couldn't put my finger to it before I started reading, got myself educated on the topic. And that sounds a fairly rational explanation that, you know, strategic misrepresentation and optimism bias play a role in that. The reference class forecasting, I think I need to clarify, because I would never make an estimate out of a reference class forecaste. Like, that's not how you estimate things. And I think when you don't have the certainty, when you're talking about things where you making assumptions, you're never going to be 100% correct. So the way, personally, I think you have to do it and this is done in other industry, you triangulate, you know, you start from a bottom up, then you do a top down and then you start layering on qualitative factors and then at the end, you make a decision on what number to pick, but it's a decision based on on multiple parameters. And to me, reference forecasts, you know, I give the example many times about the mergers and acquisition industry, right? In M&A, you start with the discounted cash flow, lets you bottom up estimate of how much your company's worth and then, but whenever you do a DCF you need to make assumptions you know, you got to predict what the revenue growth over the next five years is going to be, blah, blah, blah. And so those assumptions might or might not be right. So you have one data point, then you have another data point, which is your reference class forecast. So in the finance industry, it's going to comps ratio, comps analysis, where you're looking at similar companies. You're looking at how much they're worth on the stock market and you trying to draw similarity. And that's your second data point that will be different from your bottom up. It'd be your top, right? So now you got two data points on trying to identify what a company is worth, and the worth of a company is very subjective as well. So then you got to layer in your qualitative analysis. So to me, yeah, I'm not here to debate the reference class forecast. It is an estimating tool. I'm here to debate that there is optimism bias and the risk strategic measure representation. And so what do we do about that? Ian Heptinstall  15:56  I agree that those things exist. The optimism bias, I'm not sure. I'm still still thinking about that bit. Because if you, in reading the literature, a strong link is made to the work of Kahneman and Tversky and Daniel Kahneman's introduction of the term optimism bias and estimates. And what's interesting is if you look at, Kahneman use as an example that he was involved in developing a new educational course and textbook in Israel, and when you read it through, the bad with retrospect estimates were from the non-experts, the expert in the room knew it would take seven years and had the reference class in their head. But they were not, you know, they were in a support role. So actually, the expert estimate was quite good. It was the amateur estimate that was deemed to be optimistic. But when thinking about that, it seemed to me that when we're talking about time and money, either spent or estimated, they, an estimate will have three components. The first component is what it is feasible to do with it. The perfect position. Then there's another set of factors that relate to things outside your control, outside influences, unknowable risks and things that could emerge that have an impact on how long something will take. But there are two separate components. There's actually a third component particularly relevant when we're talking about projects, and that the whole collection of, of managerial practices of how we go about doing the thing, so that the time that we estimate and the time that it takes, I like to see us having at least those three major components. Now, the "iron law of projects" tells us that the total time estimate was less than it actually took us. I think we get much more insight, if we think okay, well, which of those three components had the biggest role to play? Was it, it being feasible or unfeasible? Was the estimate that bad it was physically impossible to do? Were there things that were unreasonable that professionals to have known about in advance? Were there the black swans, so to speak? And if there were, at least that explains to us where the issue arose? Or was it how we go about managing and implementing our projects? Are they inherently inefficient? Are they the reason that we struggle so much to deliver to our estimates? So, I'm questioning is it the feasibility of the estimate that's wrong? Or is it how we've gone about doing it? Because in the field of construction capital projects, the methods around the world are fairly consistent. You know, where I've done my straw polls over my career, I see great levels of similarity. People often, "How do you know so much because you've never been to our country before?" Colombia, you're not that different. How do you know African oil and gas industry? I've had the same conversations. Because I've said you're not as different as you think you are. But I think that third element is where the differences arise. Now, an analogy that I often use is if we think about the winning a marathon, world class athletes have no problem running a marathon in two and a half hours. Now, if I estimate that I will run my first ever marathon in two and a half hours, that estimate is not unfeasible. It's very unlikely. But it's unlikely because of the managerial aspects. Will I put the time and effort into the training? Will I do the preparation? Will I drink less and eat better food? Will I? So it's how I go about preparing for the marathon. One of my concerns if we think the problem with projects is our estimates are too light, and the answer is to increase the estimates, that's a vicious spiral. That just means expected costs will go up and up and up over time. If we separate the three elements of time and think maybe we missed the target, not because the target was impossible, but our methods of execution was such that it made it very hard to achieve the target, that actually gives us an opening for a virtuous cycle because there are so-called black swans that show that the same estimates are achievable and can be done reliably. We touched upon the area of collaborative contracting, IBD, project alliancing. This project from hundreds of real-life projects that have tipped the iron law on its head, you probably know, well know the Walker Hartley and Mills paper from 2013 from Australia, they had, 4% of projects went over budget, and about 20% went over time. So 90% were on or under budget 75% were on or under time. And all they changed was how the projects was procured. Riccardo Cosentino  22:13  So you're not going to get an argument from me on on that topic because I do believe, I, you know, another hypothesis, I do believe that collaboration is the answer when you're dealing with complex projects. However, just going back challenging a little bit on the is it the estimate was not feasible to begin with, is it actually the execution, if we increase the budgets to begin with, are we just to even cover the poor execution. I'm paraphrasing what you're saying. But, having said that, well, yeah, and this, this is more on the, you know, when you are dealing with lump sum, turnkey contracts rather than Alliance contract, where ultimately, a client comes up with an estimate, right, they have their own estimate, they have a budget, and especially for public sector clients, those budget are, even are fully disclosed and known in ballparks. And now you have a contractor trying to win the work. And, I think we talked about this, before we came online is you know, the contractor knows that in order to win the contract will have to be near or below the client estimate. And so now, the optimism bias, the strategic misrepresentation is perpetuated in the bidding process by the contractors because they need to secure the work. Right? So in in an environment where you have lump sum turnkey fixed price, I do think it matters to start with the right budget, because that dictates the behaviors of the parties in the following steps.   Ian Heptinstall  23:57  But what is the right budget? If you want a budget that is very feasible to be achieved? If people work in a particular way, yes. But then you risk just wasting lots of money because a fixed price lump sum contract is that what it will cost you whether it's needed or not. And yeah, if there weren't these high-risk pressures on the participants to sort of play games, hide things, not be totally open and honest. And one of my concerns with the idea of strategic misrepresentation and the term deception, these people are being deceptive, no, they're playing by the rules of the game that are set in. Now, as Eli Goldratt once said, "Tell me how you measure me, and I'll tell you how I will behave. If you measure me in a dumb way, don't complain about my behavior." And I think that's what we're observing in many of the practices in the construction sector where owners are using processes and then they're complaining when they don't win, or change the rules of the game or the approach they take is to get better at this adversarial aggressive game. So we see projects where the most experienced, the most capable and the most highly-salaried individuals are those trying to control and police the contractual loopholes and administrating and nail everything down, and the lawyers, the commercial managers, the senior (inaudible). Yep. A fortune is being spent on people who are not thinking about   Riccardo Cosentino  26:00  Solving problems. Ian Heptinstall  26:01  How do we get this hospital built quickly? How do we get this hospital built so that it's open and treating people 18 months sooner than we have in the past? Or that we can have 20 more beds, or that we can free up some money to employ so many more healthcare practitioners? It's focusing on the skills on the wrong thing. And actually, I think the industry is going to have a big problem if we get our way and collaborative contracting becomes the norm. What are we going to do with the hundreds of thousands of professionally qualified contract police? That's what a lot of people do. Riccardo Cosentino  26:46  Ian, again, I'm not gonna argue with you, because on that you and I agree, 100, like, to me, I think you said it and I always say it, like, there are resources on projects that add no value or solving problems for the success of the project. And so redirecting the the effort to those results, or redirecting those resources, to more meaningful, yeah, as I said, a lawyer, you know, a claim against the client does not make concrete being poured faster, you know? A schedule analysis in order to substantiate a claim does not make concrete being poured faster. Ian Heptinstall  27:29  And actually, the the issue with that is I think that the skills and the capability to manage the detail flow of work so that concrete is poured faster and worked on sooner, that sort of logistics flow management capability is also petrifying. Now, projects that are getting into techniques and methods like lean construction, are starting to work on that, or project production management are starting to bring in some of those skills and knowledge of how to how to manage the flow of work. But it's suddenly become a niche rather, whereas it should really be core. And the core skill is actually contract administering and locking up (inaudible).   Riccardo Cosentino  28:23  No value add, right? There is no value add to the ultimate goal, which is building infrastructure.   Ian Heptinstall  28:29  Back to the strategic misrepresentation, maybe. Riccardo Cosentino  28:30  No, I actually wanted to probe you on this, because I've had a few people in the past challenging me, and you and I have exchanged messages on this topic. But you know, one of the big criticism, and this is a small parenthesis because this is not what we're talking about today, but like the cost certainty, right? You know, I have people telling me, well, you know, if you don't have a fixed price contract, you don't have cost certainty. Ian Heptinstall  28:58  And they have got evidence that the contracted price is the final price. I have not seen that evidence. And whenever I ask experienced practitioners, they say none of the final price is always more than the tender price. So if you want cost certainty, put so much padding in there that everybody can fill their boots. But if you're in the public sector, that's almost malfeasance. Yeah, just just wasting taxpayers money just so that you can have an easy life. That's not what a professional job should be about, in my view. And I think the important point in there is focusing on reliability. Are you hitting our targets? The only thing that we can do is we take the target as sort of wherever it comes from that's the important thing and we've just got to match it. What about absolute value?  Why are we not focusing on what is the absolute value? Yeah, but by the reliability school of thinking, it's better if your company makes $10 million a year, having targeted $10 million, that's actually better than making $15 million of profit in the year, because your target was 18. The 15 is rubbish, because you were 18% underneath your target, it's much better to have 100% reliability even if the profit is lower. I don't buy that. There is a role for a stretch target. The idea of smart has caused a lot of damage to performance improvement. Now, if you're looking to strive to continuously improve the performance, you don't want to put too much pressure on the individual if they miss what they're trying to achieve. Now you need to be able to manage in different ways. You need to be able to, the accountability is about how somebody goes about doing the job. Not the trivial, easy to measure accountability of numbers on a spreadsheet. I don't need to know how they're doing the job, I just need to look at some numbers. Well, if you want a simple career, become an arm's length investor or go buy a casino in Las Vegas. Because then you don't care about the individual gamblers and who makes or less. You're managing by the average statistics of the organization. On project, we want to be the individual who knows what to do. We need to be striving for what is it we do to deliver a P-10 project? Not let's make our life easy, and plan for P-90. And that's my other concern about if we blame the estimate, we're taking the focus off our leverage improvements or improvement, our leverage opportunities for improvement rather, those are how we go about doing projects. And I actually believe that if we focus first on absolute performance, reliability will get better. Yeah, that I don't whether you play golf, I (inaudible). Riccardo Cosentino  32:45  Unsuccessfully. Yes. Ian Heptinstall  32:47  My son is very good at playing golf. And he's got a very low handicap, certainly much lower than mine. And his focus, the focus of low handicap golfers is getting better at golf. Their focus is absolute performance. And you know what comes with it? They're much more reliable, their variability of play also goes down. But if you focus on just playing to your handicap, yeah, you will do some very different things. And you might, you might play to your handicap, but you won't do very good rounds of golf. And I think on project, we should be focusing on how can we make your project performance significantly better? Yeah, I think if I was still operating in large, mega projects, I'd be frustrated that the Starrett Brothers and Eken could build the Empire State Building and formed it in 10 days in 1929 when we can't do anything like that today, and I don't believe it's because we have safety rules these days. It's nowhere near as simple as that. If the industry had started to perform like other industries have, the Ford was making the Model T around that time, yet cars are just as affordable these days, but you get much, much, much more for your money. Construction projects cost more and take longer.   Riccardo Cosentino  34:31  Yeah, I take your point. I mean, you know, absolutely, I mean, we should be focusing on measuring performance and focusing on the performance because ultimately, that's the stuff that gets things built. It's not, an initial estimate is not what gets things built. But unfortunately, stakeholders and shareholders focus on it.   Ian Heptinstall  34:57  They want to make more money. If you've only got a business, the idea of risk comes with any entrepreneurship and business. They know all their forecasts or estimates. Yeah, if sales come in on forecasts, somebody's been playing with the numbers. Yeah, nobody can see the future. So where do you think that comes from? Riccardo Cosentino  35:23  Again, I think cooperation and public, especially public company, by any corporation, has to deliver, has to provide indication of future performance.   Ian Heptinstall  35:37  Yeah. Let me give you an example. Because my other set of black swans that disprove the optimistic estimate hypothesis, so I've mentioned all the data on collaboratively contracted budgets, so all done. All projects are not overspending. It is possible to deliver and achieve the estimates. There's no evidence on those projects that the estimates have been done in any different way. And if they have, then that approach has helped avoid optimism bias and strategic misrepresentation. Which surely must also be a good thing. But one of my other set, and this is the Embraer example that I used earlier on, that's an example that have used the critical chain of both scheduling and execution management, which is, needs a collaborative team. But exploits that collaboration to identify issues much earlier on and overcome them. So it focuses on that doing the work. Even though from one perspective, it's just a way of scheduling and reporting. If it's done well, it helps to introduce a much higher frequency, a higher cadence of reporting and decision making at a much lower level. That is what achieves more efficient performance. So on critical chain, critical chain, scheduling and execution projects, hit their project-level commitments, very, very regularly. I know many organizations and I have talked to people in many organizations who have sort of moved from 20% projects on time in full to 95-100% in all sorts of project domains, simply from changing how they're scheduing and managing execution. They've also increased productivity as well. But if we're just looking, the reliability has gone up at the project level. What hasn't changed is the ability to predict how long individual tasks take. So that's the sort of strange dilemma, the individual tasks are nowhere near as predictable and reliable. But the overall project is, and I think if you're striving for reliable project level, cost and time is quite feasible, I think. I think it's quite feasible to live it. But if you pass the same mindset down at the detail levels of projects and try and get each individual task and activity to give an estimate, turn it into a commitment will hold you to accountable for it, that actually drives the behaviors that makes the project level achievement much worse. Riccardo Cosentino  38:56  Yeah and why is that? Ian Heptinstall  38:59  I think its inherent in the behavior of complex systems. Because the future is unknowable. And we all know that estimate is a fancy professional name for guests. So the important thing when you're working is to work efficiently and flag up issues that can have a consequence to the rest of the project as soon as you notice them without giving the boy who cried wolf signals that sort of says I've got a problem when it's not a real problem. And methods like critical chain, try and sort of do that damping. So individual tasks that are just taking a bit longer than normal the project to accommodate because we know that some projects, some tasks will have problems and some will go smoothly. But in advance we don't know which. So methods like critical chain and the costing equivalent for collaborative contracting, let's not worry about it. Because if we don't make those estimates into commitments, they will average each other out. That's one of the ironies of organizations that use Monte Carlo simulation to try and sort of aggregate up the numbers and produce and use the central limit theorem to get overall probability distributions at the project level. Because the the basic method of sorry, the basic algorithm for Monte Carlo assumes that the pluses balance the minuses. That's built into the maths. The trouble is, behaviorally, the managerial behaviors inhibit that, because the task estimates are commitment, what tends to happen is tasks get completed, on the due date or later. It's the managerial behaviors that inhibit a project or task saying ours finished three weeks early, the next task can start earlier. But that plus and minus is built into the maths of Monte Carlo. So when critics say well, Monte Carlo analysis is inaccurate, because the numbers never look like the analysis, and you know, a P-80, we never, we don't have 80% of the cases coming in, under or on that number. So the method must be wrong. Or actually, maybe it's giving us some insight into our managerial practices, or inhibiting the sort of pluses and the minuses. So I think that's what critical chain builds in. It allows and encourages the Task Managers to, so long as they're working in a focused way and they're reporting regularly, if it takes longer, it takes longer, because we know, there'll be other tasks in the project that go shorter than expected. And because we've removed the managerial obstacles to reporting admitting an early finish, nobody's going to come back and said, You must have added your estimate. We will reduce all of your other future estimates. We'll say, great, well done. Look who's with you. So in effect, you're embracing the inherent uncertainty, so that the central limit theorem will apply. And so that the project actually gets a tighter normal distribution. So the reason we don't get that in reality, in more common conventions, is that the management practices inhibit the pluses and the minuses averaging out. That's one hypothesis. That's the underpinning thinking.   Riccardo Cosentino  43:05  So if we link that back to the initial, at the beginning, you were talking about the three element of the hypothesis, right? Is a project over budget because of the inherent lack of feasibility of the initial estimate, poor, at the other spectrum, is the poor management, sorry the management practices we're not running these jobs properly and that's why we're late and over budget. And what was the middle one? The middle one was   Ian Heptinstall  43:34  Those are the true black swans and unknowable risks that come along with that, you know, they, that the the ground conditions on your chosen route, really were bad. Yeah, whether you do lots of geotechnical surveys before or after that is still at risk. Riccardo Cosentino  43:57  So your, one of your hypothesis, if I'm not mistaken, is that if we focus on the unfeasibility of the estimate, if we assume that is the unfeasibility of the estimate that is creating the delays we were hiding, that allows us to hide the true reasons why the project is going bad. Ian Heptinstall  44:20  Yeah, and it   Riccardo Cosentino  44:21  It could be the black swans or it could be poor performance.   Ian Heptinstall  44:24  Yeah, it hides it and it stops us focusing on getting our performance well. So yeah, back to my marathon running analogy. I had someone looked at some data from the London Marathon. So the P-90 duration for winning the marathon is six hours 15 minutes. And if I planned for the P-90, six hours 15, and managed to achieve it, great but no big thing counts a great winner. And to be honest, I will be dissatisfied myself. Because I know if you've, if you've put some time and effort in, it's quite feasible for average humans to hit the P-25 or the P-10 number. So it's not it's not the estimate, it's how we go about doing it. That's, that's my main concern. We've lost, we're blaming the estimate, and we're losing focus on execution. And there's so much actual strategic opportunity for executing differently. I, once we get the estimate, right, we turn the handle, turn the handle, churn out the railway easy.   Riccardo Cosentino  45:47  Okay, so now, the comments on LinkedIn are not very conducive to understand each other's points. So I think that's the conclusion I draw. And I agree with you, I 100% agree with you. My only note is that I also tried, the reason I'm a big defender of optimism bias, which is human representation is for very similar reason to yours, but I'm coming from a different perspective. You know, I am so fed up of seeing, especially in large, mega projects, sponsored by the public sector, they end up becoming political, in Canada will be a hockey puck, a political party, right? They just get tossed around. And, you know, there's a new government and an old government and you know, there's a blame game that happens. And the blame games is always around project over budget and late, right? And there is never a recognition of, you know, there's, the management of the project was very poor and that's why he's over budget. Well, you don't actually know that, Mr. Politician, or Miss Politician, you don't know that. You just, you're using that situation to your political to create political advantage. And so to me, I find that it's also disingenuous, right? It's both sides of the coin, it's two sides of the same coin, right? Where, you know, estimate could be used not to focus on the performance, but that performance being good or bad? Because a lot of time, my experience is that project leaders get blamed for project being late. And the analysis is never done why was the project late? And there's never an analysis around was it ran properly and you had a bad estimate? Or did you have a good estimate and and they were ran badly? I think I agree with you that the conversation should be about the project performance, always should be about the project performance. And I would, I, sometimes, you need a proper estimate to have a proper conversation. Ian Heptinstall  48:01  Oh, yes, you, you definitely need to have a decent estimate that in the same way, that the iron law of projects doesn't prove that the management was bad, it doesn't prove that the estimate was bad, either.   Riccardo Cosentino  48:16  Absolutely. Ian Heptinstall  48:17  You need to scratch below the surface. That's my concern about the optimistic estimate hypothesis is it's being used in many environments as the explanation for the iron law. And therefore we focus on the estimate. And there's promotion of reference class forecasting, which good estimates are always based on the reference class anyway. And if they're not, there's something sort of structurally strategic wrong with the organization that's delivering the projects. And that will touch upon your comment there regarding that. Where's the analysis being done? Where's the evidence being gathered from an individual project and fed back so that future projects at least don't suffer from those particular issues and problems? How's that being built in? When I started, we had such a system, this so-called double loop feedback, so that project managers on a project, the guidance was reasonably well up to date, whether it was estimates, methodologies, checklists, they were kept up to date. If you don't have that, it's very difficult for organizations to manage and continuously improve their performance. But, having said that, I see these so many execution, efficiency opportunities that I'm not sure why that's where we don't start. Yeah, there's some opportunities in that I've mentioned and discussed that there's also the idea, which also has a very strong evidence base, that projects that move into execution, before sufficient preparation has been done, the extensive data from IPA, Independent Project Analysis and the CII, Construction Industry Institute, in the U.S. Yeah, that sort of 30-year-old data, a strong correlation between the degree of preparation before execution is commenced. But how many projects today, the politicians want to talk, they talk about shovels up, get shovels on the ground. I want some shovel-ready projects. Okay. But that does mean we've spent seven to 10% of the capital value to get them to shovel-ready state. No, you can't do that. I know one of the Canadian public sector bodies has that, oh that's done on out of operating expenses. And we don't want you to spend more than 2% of the capital value, getting it to a final business case. Well, that's bonkers. Because as soon as the business case is approved, somebody's going to rush into execution. And that's going to be wasteful.   Riccardo Cosentino  51:35  Absolutely. Absolutely. Ian Heptinstall  51:37  So I think, once we've sorted those things out, then we can start using the once we've crossed the execution and the preparation things off the list, then we can start looking at the quality of the estimates, I think.   Riccardo Cosentino  51:54  I mean, as project practitioners, I mean, researchers in the U.K., I mean, there is, unfortunately, sometimes we discuss and discuss these topics with a certain amount of preassumptions in, there are some things that I assumed are understood, right? And so my starting point is always I assume that we have capable contractors and capable supply chain. So that's typically the starting point for my analysis, which is not always true, but that I want to, I always try to start from there. So if you start from there, then obviously I've already solved that problem. And then now I want to focus on the strategic misrepresentation and optimism bias in the estimate process, right? Because my starting assumption is that we have a capable supply chain. Ian Heptinstall  52:55  Let me give you just one example from my own experience, when I worked at a contractor. We had a probably one of our largest clients, we had a strategic relationship with actually the project owner that we did all the building services work on their projects, and they had dozens of projects every year. When we estimated, and interestingly, we put an estimate for the building services together when the conceptual design was put together. And this, although our pricing was through an agreed mechanism, this particular client had a fixed-price approach, I want to go to a main contractor, but your work will be sort of given to them on a platter, they will be told to use you etc. But we want single point of contact. That meant that when we estimated the amount of man-hours we put in on a job, it ranged from x to 2x. Simply dependent upon who we were working alongside. And that was not just competence. It wasn't even at the level of the company. Yet the people who came and the way they managed the worksite could double the demand on our resources. And that that's a significant impact. And strangely, it was the same number that I had when I was buying spray dryers in the chemical industry 20 years earlier. And one of the global manufacturers told me yeah, depending who the client is, some clients take two times the demand on our engineering hours than others with the questions they asked. They're all competent. So there's enormous differences with how you put competent people together. You can't just assume a team forms like putting a hockey team together.   Riccardo Cosentino  55:01  I said, I made that assumption and never said it was the correct assumption. But, you know, I need to simplify certain things in order to have certain conversation. But yeah, you're right. I mean, it's not the right assumption. Ian Heptinstall  55:15  And it's a common one. And the, particularly, if you tie it with this assumption that a competitive market force will drive innovation within your supply base. It may do but it won't necessarily, particularly since main contractors are basically, variable cost organizations. They're not high-fixed cost. They're not major upfront investment that they react and increase temporarily, their variable costs only after they've won a contract. I'm not sure that that sort of market will drive innovation, you, you just need to be similar or slightly better than your fellow competitors. You don't need to be world-class, you just need to beat the other guy or gal in the room. Riccardo Cosentino  56:12  That's the bear story, right? We have that. Ian Heptinstall  56:15  That's it. That's exactly the bear story. And I think there's many from back in my procurement days, there's many examples where owners facilitating supply-side innovation, drove significant improvements. But if they just sat there and waited for responses to tenders, nothing would have changed. They the whole topic of so-called reverse marketing, where it's the customer who encourages suppliers to enter new supply markets, or to work in different ways. It's a known technique that I wish I saw more of it amongst major project owners in the construction space. Riccardo Cosentino  57:07  Look, I mean, I might not have time to unpack this, but like, and it goes back to your alliance contract, right? I mean, that the reason and it's a very crude description, and you're probably gonna cringe the way I say it. But you know, when you have alliance contracting, especially the public sector clients have to be at the table, right? Now, the cost overruns are no longer somebody else's problem. They're our collective problem. And so you need to come to the table. So the, you know, for the contractor, it basically removes the unproductive resource, legal and commercial resources. And so now you have all of the resources, just focusing on problems. On the public sector, you actually create skin in the game, where now you don't longer have a command and control posture, because you have transmitted fixed price risk to somebody else, you're at the table, you need to contribute to problem solving, and you need to help, like you said, innovation. But that only happens if you have the legal and the right legal commercial framework that is associated with alliance, in my mind. I don't think you can achieve that through any other, because any other commercial contractual method, because the behaviors that those frameworks create, are not conducive to collaboration and innovation. Because exactly what you said, I mean, a contractor, a contractor will do what a contractor will do. Like it's a variable cost organization, they're not going to invest in R&D because the next project might not need the R&D you just developed for this project. And an owner wants to, as you said, there was an all-knowing how to most of the owners worldwide. And now the owner organization doesn't actually have the resources and the capability to be at the table, to be the informed or capable owner that is needed to run these projects. Ian Heptinstall  59:10  They got to have some of it. Because I think that input depends on what the project is about. I'd like to start thinking about the inherent project and forget who employs the people that you need in your project team. So doing a project is a team sport. And you need people around that table with the sort of operating experience for what the asset will be used for. And you need that mix of expertise. And very often the owner organization is the obvious place to provide that kind of expertise. Now, I'm less convinced that the owner has to be the one with the team facilitation syncronization skill. I think that depends on the individual you've got. And that can come from any, ideally, any one of the participants. And if you're short there, you might have to bring in an additional individual or party to manage that synchronization. But that could that could come from any of them, not necessarily the owner. But which is, you know, thinking lifecycle cost, an understanding of needs, regulatory environment, the political environment, those sorts of changes will probably come from the owner. So their representatives, there's a lot of value they can add, rather than being arm's length, and hoping that the, your contractors will sort that out by themselves is, as one of my friends would say that you're taking hopium. Riccardo Cosentino  1:01:01  The command and control posture right, I think you call it arm's length, I call it command and control posture. Anyway, I'm conscious of time. (Inaudible) Yeah, I mean, this has been a fascinating conversation that I want to thank you for, for joining me, thank you for suggesting that we do this. And honestly, I'd love to maybe, on another episode, to pick up the collaborative contracting versus lump sum debate, right? Because it's a very live debate right now in where I am in Canada, even in the U.S. a little bit. But Canada, or we are certainly now starting to enter the collaborative space and you can see, yeah, I love to have a conversation with you about that on another episode.   Ian Heptinstall  1:01:57  That sounds like a plan, Riccardo we'll work on it. Riccardo Cosentino  1:02:01  Great. Okay. Ian, on that note, again, thank you for joining me, and I look forward to further exchanges, both on another episode or on LinkedIn. Ian Heptinstall  1:02:14  Thanks, for the opportunity. And yes, this gets around the 125 or 1250 character limit of LinkedIn. Riccardo Cosentino  1:02:23  Absolutely. Ian Heptinstall  1:02:24  Thanks for the opportunity. I've enjoyed it. Thank you. Riccardo Cosentino  1:02:26  Thank you. Bye now.   Riccardo Cosentino  1:02:29  That's it for this episode of Navigating Major Programmes. I hope you found today's conversation as informative or provoking as I did. If you enjoyed this conversation, please consider subscribing and leaving a review. I would also like to personally invite you to continue the conversation by joining me on my personal LinkedIn at Riccardo Cosentino. Listening to the next episode, we will continue to explore the latest trends and challenges in major programme management. Our next in-depth conversation promises to continue to dive into topics such as leadership risk management and the impact of emerging technology in infrastructure. It's a conversation you're not going to want to miss. Thanks for listening to Navigating Major Programmes and I look forward to keeping the conversation going. Music: "A New Tomorrow" by Chordial Music. 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