Podcast appearances and mentions of steve one

I'm not a financial advisor; Superpowers for Good should not be considered investment advice. Seek counsel before making investment decisions.Watch the show on television by downloading the e360tv channel app to your Roku, AppleTV or AmazonFireTV. You can also see it on YouTube.When you purchase an item, launch a campaign or invest after clicking a link here, we may earn a commission. Engage to support our work.Devin: What do you see as your superpower?Steve: One of the nice things about getting older is you have a little more wisdom, or you hope you have a little more wisdom to kind of reflect on how you got to where you're at now. I began to realize after the housing crisis blew up, after spending 20 or 30 years in a certain career, I had three or four different kinds of careers. Also, I knew a lot of people. So, I think of myself as a connector. In this episode of the Superpowers for Good show, I had the privilege of hosting Stephen Shaff, the visionary founder of Community-Vision Solutions, Benefit LLC. Stephen shared insights into his groundbreaking initiative, the Community Alliance Project, aimed at revitalizing underserved communities in a sustainable and inclusive manner. His approach, rooted in decades of social enterprise and activism, offers a fresh perspective on community development that leverages the strengths of diverse sectors for collective progress.Stephen's journey began with a realization that conventional community revitalization efforts were often fragmented and under-resourced, unable to effectively counteract market forces or address deep-seated inequalities. "The community revitalization paradigm is dysfunctional and grossly under-resourced," Stephen observed. This acknowledgment led him to explore a more holistic and cooperative model, one that could harness the potential of social enterprise and the broader community for meaningful impact.The essence of the Community Alliance Project lies in its collaborative framework, bringing together faith-based organizations, nonprofits, local businesses, activists, and other stakeholders to work towards common goals. By integrating various sectors, including housing, arts, education, and civic engagement, the project aims to build vibrant, self-sustaining communities where everyone has a stake in the outcome. Stephen's approach underscores the importance of inclusivity and shared value, principles that are critical in countering the forces of gentrification and displacement.One particularly compelling aspect of Stephen's strategy is the emphasis on utilizing existing assets within communities, such as underutilized land owned by faith-based organizations. By forming strategic partnerships, these assets can be transformed into mixed-use developments that provide affordable housing, community services, and commercial spaces, all while preserving the community's cultural and social fabric.As I reflect on my conversation with Stephen, I am struck by the potential of his model to effect transformative change. The Community Alliance Project represents a beacon of hope for underserved communities, offering a path to empowerment and prosperity through collaboration and innovation. Stephen's dedication to this cause is not only inspiring but a testament to the power of unity in overcoming the challenges that face our society today.In embracing this model, we can all play a part in building a more equitable and vibrant world, one community at a time.Stephen will speak at SuperCrowdBaltimore at the B&O Railroad Museum on Thursday. This event addresses directly how we can support community builders like Stephen with impact investments via crowdfunding. Register today with the discount code SUPERCROWD to save 30 percent.AI Episode Summary1. Stephen Shaff is the CEO and founder of Community-Vision Solutions, which focuses on rebuilding underserved communities with authentic, community-oriented approaches.2. Community-Vision Solutions is a culmination of Stephen's 35 years of experience working in social enterprise, activism, and organizing, leveraging a network of resources and solutions for community development.3. Stephen's work began with a pivot from being a political and social psychology PhD candidate to entering the affordable housing sector, realizing that real estate could be used for social impact.4. He learned that the community revitalization paradigm was dysfunctional and under-resourced, incapable of combating market forces, leading him to explore social enterprise for greater impact.5. Another observation was that revitalizing communities can be a multi-billion-dollar opportunity, but it usually misses the involvement of local organizations, something Community-Vision Solutions wants to address.6. The Community Alliance program aims to integrate various sectors, such as funding sources, activism, political advocacy, and expertise, to foster community-driven change and development.7. A practical example provided is working with a church that, facing gentrification, can partner with Community-Vision Solutions to develop housing, repair the church, and create sustainable income while serving community needs.8. Stephen emphasizes that to effectively use crowdfunding, which is a democratic and beneficial tool, communities need to amplify their reach, as small entities often lack the necessary extensive network for success.9. Stephen identifies his superpower as being a connector and convener, able to bring together various sectors and networks to create collaborative and effective solutions for community development.10. He encourages others to visit the Community-Vision Solutions website to learn more and engage with their work while emphasizing that building scalable, replicable solutions requires collaboration and shared learning.To help us build stronger communities, please share this post.How to Develop Connecting As a SuperpowerStephen Shaff's superpower, as he articulated in our interview, can be encapsulated in the term "connector." This term highlights his ability to bring diverse groups together for a common purpose, facilitating collaboration and collective action. Stephen's superpower is rooted in his genuine interest in people and his capacity to connect across various networks, including political, business, and community sectors. His knack for engaging with a wide array of individuals and treating them with respect and dignity underpins his success in mobilizing collective efforts for community development.An illustrative story of Stephen's superpower in action involves his work with an arts organization facing eviction due to their landlord's decision to sell the property. Drawing upon his vast network, Stephen assembles the necessary resources, developers, and capital to form a joint venture that benefits the arts group. His deep understanding and authentic involvement in community arts add a layer of trust and credibility, showcasing his ability to not just connect people but align their interests towards a shared goal.To develop the superpower of convening, Stephen suggests engaging with diverse networks and being genuinely interested in learning from others. He emphasizes the importance of collaboration and the mutual exchange of resources and knowledge. Visiting platforms like the Community-Vision Solutions website can offer insights into effective cross-sector collaboration and provide opportunities for connection and growth.By following Stephen Shaff's example and advice, you can make convening a skill. With practice and effort, you could make it a superpower that enables you to do more good in the world, bringing together diverse groups to collaborate on solutions that benefit communities and foster sustainable development.Remember, however, that research into success suggests that building on your own superpowers is more important than creating new ones or overcoming weaknesses. You do you!Guest ProfileStephen Shaff (he/him):Founder, Community-Vision Solutions, Benefit LLCAbout Community-Vision Solutions, Benefit LLC: Community-Vision Solutions (C-VS) stands as an innovative social enterprise investor and strategist at the forefront of the emerging Impact economy. As a mission-driven Benefit LLC, C-VS maintains an unwavering commitment to equally prioritize the well-being of People and Planet alongside social enterprise profit. Flourishing at the intersection of expertise, distinguished networks, and an economic equality agenda, we actively strive to engender lasting positive change that nurtures sustainable and equitable communities.Website: www.c-vsolutions.comBiographical Information: Stephen Shaff is a social entrepreneur and activist with a diverse background in affordable housing, organizing, advocacy, and community-wealth-building strategies.Driven by a mission for change, he sought to enhance his affordable housing efforts in the most underserved neighborhoods of Washington, DC, through intentional community organizing collaborations. His leadership played a pivotal role in the founding, funding, advising, and/or serving on several nonprofit boards of directors dedicated to addressing issues related to anti-poverty, arts, children, environment, and other community-change initiatives.In tandem with his entrepreneurial pursuits and commitment to economic equality, Shaff has cultivated an extensive cross-sector network. This network comprises business innovators, activists, elected officials, and other impactful leaders spanning from deep within underserved communities to a national network of change agents.In 2023, Shaff established Community-Vision Solutions, Benefit LLC, a social enterprise specializing in investment, consultation, and strategic planning. The flagship initiative, the COMMUNITY ALLIANCE PROJECT, was conceived to empower under-resourced community stakeholders by providing them with a social enterprise strategic ally. This CAP collaboration aims to level the community development playing field through the convergence of Community-Vision Solutions' extensive networks, business expertise, access to new capital, and collaboration with mission-driven community stakeholder partners.Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/stephen-shaff-2757354/Upcoming SuperCrowd Event CalendarIf a location is not noted, the events below are virtual.* SuperCrowdBaltimore, March 21, 2024: This in-person event at the B&O Rail Museum features some of Baltimore's prominent citizens and community leaders. Use the discount code “SuperCrowd” to save 30 percent!* Impact Cherub Club Meeting hosted by The Super Crowd, Inc., a public benefit corporation, on March 26, 2024, at 1:00 PM Eastern. Each month, the Club meets to review new offerings for investment consideration and to conduct due diligence on previously screened deals. Everyone is welcome to join these free events.* SuperCrowdHour, March 27, 2024 at 1:00 Eastern. Devin Thorpe will explain the three surprising reasons impact investors should seek to make money from impact investing.* Superpowers for Good - Kinect Capital Live Pitch, March 28 at 9 PM Eastern/6 PM Pacific: Four companies currently raising via crowdfunding will pitch their offerings live via the Superpowers for Good streaming television show on e360tv, Linkedin, Facebook and Youtube. Kinect Capital will host the pitch.* SuperCrowd24, April 17-18: This two-day virtual event is our biggest of the year. Don't miss it. Use the discount code “SuperCrowd” to save 50 percent.* SuperCrowdChicago, June 12, 2024. Save the date! More information is coming soon!* Recently, we created an AI GPT to help you learn more about The Super Crowd, Inc., a public benefit corporation, and our upcoming events. Click here to try it.SuperCrowd Community Event Calendar* Successful Funding with Karl Dakin, Tuesdays at 10:00 AM ET * Investment Crowdfunding Demystified, Crowdfund Better, April 23 at 2:00 PM ET* Move Your Money Month, April 2024, American Independent Business Alliance* How to Design an Equitable Retirement Plan: A Guide for Nonprofits, Foundations, and Mission-Driven Businesses, April 25, 3:00 PM ET.* Crowdfunding Professional Association Webinar, May 8, 2:00 PM ETIf you would like to submit an event for us to share with the 4,000+ members of the SuperCrowd, click here.We use AI to help us write compelling recaps of each episode. Get full access to Superpowers for Good at www.superpowers4good.com/subscribe

We are running an end of year survey for our listeners. Let us know any feedback you have for us, what episodes resonated with you the most, and guest requests for 2024! RAG has emerged as one of the key pieces of the AI Engineer stack. Jerry from LlamaIndex called it a “hack”, Bryan from Hex compared it to “a recommendation system from LLMs”, and even LangChain started with it. RAG is crucial in any AI coding workflow. We talked about context quality for code in our Phind episode. Today's guests, Beyang Liu and Steve Yegge from SourceGraph, have been focused on code indexing and retrieval for over 15 years. We locked them in our new studio to record a 1.5 hours masterclass on the history of code search, retrieval interfaces for code, and how they get SOTA 30% completion acceptance rate in their Cody product by being better at the “bin packing problem” of LLM context generation. Google Grok → SourceGraph → CodyWhile at Google in 2008, Steve built Grok, which lives on today as Google Kythe. It allowed engineers to do code parsing and searching across different codebases and programming languages. (You might remember this blog post from Steve's time at Google) Beyang was an intern at Google at the same time, and Grok became the inspiration to start SourceGraph in 2013. The two didn't know eachother personally until Beyang brought Steve out of retirement 9 years later to join him as VP Engineering. Fast forward 10 years, SourceGraph has become to best code search tool out there and raised $223M along the way. Nine months ago, they open sourced SourceGraph Cody, their AI coding assistant. All their code indexing and search infrastructure allows them to get SOTA results by having better RAG than competitors:* Code completions as you type that achieve an industry-best Completion Acceptance Rate (CAR) as high as 30% using a context-enhanced open-source LLM (StarCoder)* Context-aware chat that provides the option of using GPT-4 Turbo, Claude 2, GPT-3.5 Turbo, Mistral 7x8B, or Claude Instant, with more model integrations planned* Doc and unit test generation, along with AI quick fixes for common coding errors* AI-enhanced natural language code search, powered by a hybrid dense/sparse vector search engine There are a few pieces of infrastructure that helped Cody achieve these results:Dense-sparse vector retrieval system For many people, RAG = vector similarity search, but there's a lot more that you can do to get the best possible results. From their release:"Sparse vector search" is a fancy name for keyword search that potentially incorporates LLMs for things like ranking and term expansion (e.g., "k8s" expands to "Kubernetes container orchestration", possibly weighted as in SPLADE): * Dense vector retrieval makes use of embeddings, the internal representation that LLMs use to represent text. Dense vector retrieval provides recall over a broader set of results that may have no exact keyword matches but are still semantically similar. * Sparse vector retrieval is very fast, human-understandable, and yields high recall of results that closely match the user query. * We've found the approaches to be complementary.There's a very good blog post by Pinecone on SPLADE for sparse vector search if you're interested in diving in. If you're building RAG applications in areas that have a lot of industry-specific nomenclature, acronyms, etc, this is a good approach to getting better results.SCIPIn 2016, Microsoft announced the Language Server Protocol (LSP) and the Language Server Index Format (LSIF). This protocol makes it easy for IDEs to get all the context they need from a codebase to get things like file search, references, “go to definition”, etc. SourceGraph developed SCIP, “a better code indexing format than LSIF”:* Simpler and More Efficient Format: SCIP utilizes Protobuf instead of JSON, which is used by LSIF. Protobuf is more space-efficient, simpler, and more suitable for systems programming. * Better Performance and Smaller Index Sizes: SCIP indexers, such as scip-clang, show enhanced performance and reduced index file sizes compared to LSIF indexers (10%-20% smaller)* Easier to Develop and Debug: SCIP's design, centered around human-readable string IDs for symbols, makes it faster and more straightforward to develop new language indexers. Having more efficient indexing is key to more performant RAG on code. Show Notes* Sourcegraph* Cody* Copilot vs Cody* Steve's Stanford seminar on Grok* Steve's blog* Grab* Fireworks* Peter Norvig* Noam Chomsky* Code search* Kelly Norton* Zoekt* v0.devSee also our past episodes on Cursor, Phind, Codeium and Codium as well as the GitHub Copilot keynote at AI Engineer Summit.Timestamps* [00:00:00] Intros & Backgrounds* [00:05:20] How Steve's work on Grok inspired SourceGraph for Beyang* [00:08:10] What's Cody?* [00:11:22] Comparison of coding assistants and the capabilities of Cody* [00:16:00] The importance of context (RAG) in AI coding tools* [00:21:33] The debate between Chomsky and Norvig approaches in AI* [00:30:06] Normsky: the Norvig + Chomsky models collision* [00:36:00] The death of the DSL?* [00:40:00] LSP, Skip, Kythe, BFG, and all that fun stuff* [00:53:00] The SourceGraph internal stack* [00:58:46] Building on open source models* [01:02:00] SourceGraph for engineering managers?* [01:12:00] Lightning RoundTranscriptAlessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO-in-Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol AI. [00:00:16]Swyx: Hey, and today we're christening our new podcast studio in the Newton, and we have Beyang and Steve from Sourcegraph. Welcome. [00:00:25]Beyang: Hey, thanks for having us. [00:00:26]Swyx: So this has been a long time coming. I'm very excited to have you. We also are just celebrating the one year anniversary of ChatGPT yesterday, but also we'll be talking about the GA of Cody later on today. We'll just do a quick intros of both of you. Obviously, people can research you and check the show notes for more. Beyang, you worked in computer vision at Stanford and then you worked at Palantir. I did, yeah. You also interned at Google. [00:00:48]Beyang: I did back in the day where I get to use Steve's system, DevTool. [00:00:53]Swyx: Right. What was it called? [00:00:55]Beyang: It was called Grok. Well, the end user thing was Google Code Search. That's what everyone called it, or just like CS. But the brains of it were really the kind of like Trigram index and then Grok, which provided the reference graph. [00:01:07]Steve: Today it's called Kythe, the open source Google one. It's sort of like Grok v3. [00:01:11]Swyx: On your podcast, which you've had me on, you've interviewed a bunch of other code search developers, including the current developer of Kythe, right? [00:01:19]Beyang: No, we didn't have any Kythe people on, although we would love to if they're up for it. We had Kelly Norton, who built a similar system at Etsy, it's an open source project called Hound. We also had Han-Wen Nienhuys, who created Zoekt, which is, I think, heavily inspired by the Trigram index that powered Google's original code search and that we also now use at Sourcegraph. Yeah. [00:01:45]Swyx: So you teamed up with Quinn over 10 years ago to start Sourcegraph and you were indexing all code on the internet. And now you're in a perfect spot to create a code intelligence startup. Yeah, yeah. [00:01:56]Beyang: I guess the backstory was, I used Google Code Search while I was an intern. And then after I left that internship and worked elsewhere, it was the single dev tool that I missed the most. I felt like my job was just a lot more tedious and much more of a hassle without it. And so when Quinn and I started working together at Palantir, he had also used various code search engines in open source over the years. And it was just a pain point that we both felt, both working on code at Palantir and also working within Palantir's clients, which were a lot of Fortune 500 companies, large financial institutions, folks like that. And if anything, the pains they felt in dealing with large complex code bases made our pain points feel small by comparison. So that was really the impetus for starting Sourcegraph. [00:02:42]Swyx: Yeah, excellent. Steve, you famously worked at Amazon. And you've told many, many stories. I want every single listener of Latent Space to check out Steve's YouTube because he effectively had a podcast that you didn't tell anyone about or something. You just hit record and just went on a few rants. I'm always here for your Stevie rants. And then you moved to Google, where you also had some interesting thoughts on just the overall Google culture versus Amazon. You joined Grab as head of eng for a couple of years. I'm from Singapore, so I have actually personally used a lot of Grab's features. And it was very interesting to see you talk so highly of Grab's engineering and sort of overall prospects. [00:03:21]Steve: Because as a customer, it sucked? [00:03:22]Swyx: Yeah, no, it's just like, being from a smaller country, you never see anyone from our home country being on a global stage or talked about as a startup that people admire or look up to, like on the league that you, with all your legendary experience, would consider equivalent. Yeah. [00:03:41]Steve: Yeah, no, absolutely. They actually, they didn't even know that they were as good as they were, in a sense. They started hiring a bunch of people from Silicon Valley to come in and sort of like fix it. And we came in and we were like, Oh, we could have been a little better operational excellence and stuff. But by and large, they're really sharp. The only thing about Grab is that they get criticized a lot for being too westernized. Oh, by who? By Singaporeans who don't want to work there. [00:04:06]Swyx: Okay. I guess I'm biased because I'm here, but I don't see that as a problem. If anything, they've had their success because they were more westernized than the Sanders Singaporean tech company. [00:04:15]Steve: I mean, they had their success because they are laser focused. They copy to Amazon. I mean, they're executing really, really, really well for a giant. I was on a slack with 2,500 engineers. It was like this giant waterfall that you could dip your toe into. You'd never catch up. Actually, the AI summarizers would have been really helpful there. But yeah, no, I think Grab is successful because they're just out there with their sleeves rolled up, just making it happen. [00:04:43]Swyx: And for those who don't know, it's not just like Uber of Southeast Asia, it's also a super app. PayPal Plus. [00:04:48]Steve: Yeah. [00:04:49]Swyx: In the way that super apps don't exist in the West. It's one of the enduring mysteries of B2C that super apps work in the East and don't work in the West. We just don't understand it. [00:04:57]Beyang: Yeah. [00:04:58]Steve: It's just kind of curious. They didn't work in India either. And it was primarily because of bandwidth reasons and smaller phones. [00:05:03]Swyx: That should change now. It should. [00:05:05]Steve: And maybe we'll see a super app here. [00:05:08]Swyx: You retired-ish? I did. You retired-ish on your own video game? Mm-hmm. Any fun stories about that? And that's also where you discovered some need for code search, right? Mm-hmm. [00:05:16]Steve: Sure. A need for a lot of stuff. Better programming languages, better databases. Better everything. I mean, I started in like 95, right? Where there was kind of nothing. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:24]Beyang: I just want to say, I remember when you first went to Grab because you wrote that blog post talking about why you were excited about it, about like the expanding Asian market. And our reaction was like, oh, man, how did we miss stealing it with you? [00:05:36]Swyx: Hiring you. [00:05:37]Beyang: Yeah. [00:05:38]Steve: I was like, miss that. [00:05:39]Swyx: Tell that story. So how did this happen? Right? So you were inspired by Grok. [00:05:44]Beyang: I guess the backstory from my point of view is I had used code search and Grok while at Google, but I didn't actually know that it was connected to you, Steve. I knew you from your blog posts, which were always excellent, kind of like inside, very thoughtful takes from an engineer's perspective on some of the challenges facing tech companies and tech culture and that sort of thing. But my first introduction to you within the context of code intelligence, code understanding was I watched a talk that you gave, I think at Stanford, about Grok when you're first building it. And that was very eye opening. I was like, oh, like that guy, like the guy who, you know, writes the extremely thoughtful ranty like blog posts also built that system. And so that's how I knew, you know, you were involved in that. And then, you know, we always wanted to hire you, but never knew quite how to approach you or, you know, get that conversation started. [00:06:34]Steve: Well, we got introduced by Max, right? Yeah. It was temporal. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a no brainer. They called me up and I had noticed when Sourcegraph had come out. Of course, when they first came out, I had this dagger of jealousy stabbed through me piercingly, which I remember because I am not a jealous person by any means, ever. But boy, I was like, but I was kind of busy, right? And just one thing led to another. I got sucked back into the ads vortex and whatever. So thank God Sourcegraph actually kind of rescued me. [00:07:05]Swyx: Here's a chance to build DevTools. Yeah. [00:07:08]Steve: That's the best. DevTools are the best. [00:07:10]Swyx: Cool. Well, so that's the overall intro. I guess we can get into Cody. Is there anything else that like people should know about you before we get started? [00:07:18]Steve: I mean, everybody knows I'm a musician. I can juggle five balls. [00:07:24]Swyx: Five is good. Five is good. I've only ever managed three. [00:07:27]Steve: Five is hard. Yeah. And six, a little bit. [00:07:30]Swyx: Wow. [00:07:31]Beyang: That's impressive. [00:07:32]Alessio: So yeah, to jump into Sourcegraph, this has been a company 10 years in the making. And as Sean said, now you're at the right place. Phase two. Now, exactly. You spent 10 years collecting all this code, indexing, making it easy to surface it. Yeah. [00:07:47]Swyx: And also learning how to work with enterprises and having them trust you with their code bases. Yeah. [00:07:52]Alessio: Because initially you were only doing on-prem, right? Like a lot of like VPC deployments. [00:07:55]Beyang: So in the very early days, we're cloud only. But the first major customers we landed were all on-prem, self-hosted. And that was, I think, related to the nature of the problem that we're solving, which becomes just like a critical, unignorable pain point once you're above like 100 devs or so. [00:08:11]Alessio: Yeah. And now Cody is going to be GA by the time this releases. So congrats to your future self for launching this in two weeks. Can you give a quick overview of just what Cody is? I think everybody understands that it's a AI coding agent, but a lot of companies say they have a AI coding agent. So yeah, what does Cody do? How do people interface with it? [00:08:32]Beyang: Yeah. So how is it different from the like several dozen other AI coding agents that exist in the market now? When we thought about building a coding assistant that would do things like code generation and question answering about your code base, I think we came at it from the perspective of, you know, we've spent the past decade building the world's best code understanding engine for human developers, right? So like it's kind of your guide as a human dev if you want to go and dive into a large complex code base. And so our intuition was that a lot of the context that we're providing to human developers would also be useful context for AI developers to consume. And so in terms of the feature set, Cody is very similar to a lot of other assistants. It does inline autocompletion. It does code base aware chat. It does specific commands that automate, you know, tasks that you might rather not want to do like generating unit tests or adding detailed documentation. But we think the core differentiator is really the quality of the context, which is hard to kind of describe succinctly. It's a bit like saying, you know, what's the difference between Google and Alta Vista? There's not like a quick checkbox list of features that you can rattle off, but it really just comes down to all the attention and detail that we've paid to making that context work well and be high quality and fast for human devs. We're now kind of plugging into the AI coding assistant as well. Yeah. [00:09:53]Steve: I mean, just to add my own perspective on to what Beyang just described, RAG is kind of like a consultant that the LLM has available, right, that knows about your code. RAG provides basically a bridge to a lookup system for the LLM, right? Whereas fine tuning would be more like on the job training for somebody. If the LLM is a person, you know, and you send them to a new job and you do on the job training, that's what fine tuning is like, right? So tuned to our specific task. You're always going to need that expert, even if you get the on the job training, because the expert knows your particular code base, your task, right? That expert has to know your code. And there's a chicken and egg problem because, right, you know, we're like, well, I'm going to ask the LLM about my code, but first I have to explain it, right? It's this chicken and egg problem. That's where RAG comes in. And we have the best consultants, right? The best assistant who knows your code. And so when you sit down with Cody, right, what Beyang said earlier about going to Google and using code search and then starting to feel like without it, his job was super tedious. Once you start using these, do you guys use coding assistants? [00:10:53]Swyx: Yeah, right. [00:10:54]Steve: I mean, like we're getting to the point very quickly, right? Where you feel like almost like you're programming without the internet, right? Or something, you know, it's like you're programming back in the nineties without the coding assistant. Yeah. Hopefully that helps for people who have like no idea about coding systems, what they are. [00:11:09]Swyx: Yeah. [00:11:10]Alessio: I mean, going back to using them, we had a lot of them on the podcast already. We had Cursor, we have Codium and Codium, very similar names. [00:11:18]Swyx: Yeah. Find, and then of course there's Copilot. [00:11:22]Alessio: You had a Copilot versus Cody blog post, and I think it really shows the context improvement. So you had two examples that stuck with me. One was, what does this application do? And the Copilot answer was like, oh, it uses JavaScript and NPM and this. And it's like, but that's not what it does. You know, that's what it's built with. Versus Cody was like, oh, these are like the major functions. And like, these are the functionalities and things like that. And then the other one was, how do I start this up? And Copilot just said NPM start, even though there was like no start command in the package JSON, but you know, most collapse, right? Most projects use NPM start. So maybe this does too. How do you think about open source models? Because Copilot has their own private thing. And I think you guys use Starcoder, if I remember right. Yeah, that's correct. [00:12:09]Beyang: I think Copilot uses some variant of Codex. They're kind of cagey about it. I don't think they've like officially announced what model they use. [00:12:16]Swyx: And I think they use a range of models based on what you're doing. Yeah. [00:12:19]Beyang: So everyone uses a range of model. Like no one uses the same model for like inline completion versus like chat because the latency requirements for. Oh, okay. Well, there's fill in the middle. There's also like what the model's trained on. So like we actually had completions powered by Claude Instant for a while. And but you had to kind of like prompt hack your way to get it to output just the code and not like, hey, you know, here's the code you asked for, like that sort of text. So like everyone uses a range of models. We've kind of designed Cody to be like especially model, not agnostic, but like pluggable. So one of our kind of design considerations was like as the ecosystem evolves, we want to be able to integrate the best in class models, whether they're proprietary or open source into Cody because the pace of innovation in the space is just so quick. And I think that's been to our advantage. Like today, Cody uses Starcoder for inline completions. And with the benefit of the context that we provide, we actually show comparable completion acceptance rate metrics. It's kind of like the standard metric that folks use to evaluate inline completion quality. It's like if I show you a completion, what's the chance that you actually accept the completion versus you reject it? And so we're at par with Copilot, which is at the head of that industry right now. And we've been able to do that with the Starcoder model, which is open source and the benefit of the context fetching stuff that we provide. And of course, a lot of like prompt engineering and other stuff along the way. [00:13:40]Alessio: And Steve, you wrote a post called cheating is all you need about what you're building. And one of the points you made is that everybody's fighting on the same axis, which is better UI and the IDE, maybe like a better chat response. But data modes are kind of the most important thing. And you guys have like a 10 year old mode with all the data you've been collecting. How do you kind of think about what other companies are doing wrong, right? Like, why is nobody doing this in terms of like really focusing on RAG? I feel like you see so many people. Oh, we just got a new model. It's like a bit human eval. And it's like, well, but maybe like that's not what we should really be doing, you know? Like, do you think most people underestimate the importance of like the actual RAG in code? [00:14:21]Steve: I think that people weren't doing it much. It wasn't. It's kind of at the edges of AI. It's not in the center. I know that when ChatGPT launched, so within the last year, I've heard a lot of rumblings from inside of Google, right? Because they're undergoing a huge transformation to try to, you know, of course, get into the new world. And I heard that they told, you know, a bunch of teams to go and train their own models or fine tune their own models, right? [00:14:43]Swyx: Both. [00:14:43]Steve: And, you know, it was a s**t show. Nobody knew how to do it. They launched two coding assistants. One was called Code D with an EY. And then there was, I don't know what happened in that one. And then there's Duet, right? Google loves to compete with themselves, right? They do this all the time. And they had a paper on Duet like from a year ago. And they were doing exactly what Copilot was doing, which was just pulling in the local context, right? But fundamentally, I thought of this because we were talking about the splitting of the [00:15:10]Swyx: models. [00:15:10]Steve: In the early days, it was the LLM did everything. And then we realized that for certain use cases, like completions, that a different, smaller, faster model would be better. And that fragmentation of models, actually, we expected to continue and proliferate, right? Because we are fundamentally, we're a recommender engine right now. Yeah, we're recommending code to the LLM. We're saying, may I interest you in this code right here so that you can answer my question? [00:15:34]Swyx: Yeah? [00:15:34]Steve: And being good at recommender engine, I mean, who are the best recommenders, right? There's YouTube and Spotify and, you know, Amazon or whatever, right? Yeah. [00:15:41]Swyx: Yeah. [00:15:41]Steve: And they all have many, many, many, many, many models, right? For all fine-tuned for very specific, you know. And that's where we're heading in code, too. Absolutely. [00:15:50]Swyx: Yeah. [00:15:50]Alessio: We just did an episode we released on Wednesday, which we said RAG is like Rexis or like LLMs. You're basically just suggesting good content. [00:15:58]Swyx: It's like what? Recommendations. [00:15:59]Beyang: Recommendations. [00:16:00]Alessio: Oh, got it. [00:16:01]Steve: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:16:02]Swyx: So like the naive implementation of RAG is you embed everything, throw it in a vector database, you embed your query, and then you find the nearest neighbors, and that's your RAG. But actually, you need to rank it. And actually, you need to make sure there's sample diversity and that kind of stuff. And then you're like slowly gradient dissenting yourself towards rediscovering proper Rexis, which has been traditional ML for a long time. But like approaching it from an LLM perspective. Yeah. [00:16:24]Beyang: I almost think of it as like a generalized search problem because it's a lot of the same things. Like you want your layer one to have high recall and get all the potential things that could be relevant. And then there's typically like a layer two re-ranking mechanism that bumps up the precision and tries to get the relevant stuff to the top of the results list. [00:16:43]Swyx: Have you discovered that ranking matters a lot? Oh, yeah. So the context is that I think a lot of research shows that like one, context utilization matters based on model. Like GPT uses the top of the context window, and then apparently Claude uses the bottom better. And it's lossy in the middle. Yeah. So ranking matters. No, it really does. [00:17:01]Beyang: The skill with which models are able to take advantage of context is always going to be dependent on how that factors into the impact on the training loss. [00:17:10]Swyx: Right? [00:17:10]Beyang: So like if you want long context window models to work well, then you have to have a ton of data where it's like, here's like a billion lines of text. And I'm going to ask a question about like something that's like, you know, embedded deeply into it and like, give me the right answer. And unless you have that training set, then of course, you're going to have variability in terms of like where it attends to. And in most kind of like naturally occurring data, the thing that you're talking about right now, the thing I'm asking you about is going to be something that we talked about recently. [00:17:36]Swyx: Yeah. [00:17:36]Steve: Did you really just say gradient dissenting yourself? Actually, I love that it's entered the casual lexicon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:17:44]Swyx: My favorite version of that is, you know, how we have to p-hack papers. So, you know, when you throw humans at the problem, that's called graduate student dissent. That's great. It's really awesome. [00:17:54]Alessio: I think the other interesting thing that you have is this inline assist UX that I wouldn't say async, but like it works while you can also do work. So you can ask Cody to make changes on a code block and you can still edit the same file at the same time. [00:18:07]Swyx: Yeah. [00:18:07]Alessio: How do you see that in the future? Like, do you see a lot of Cody's running together at the same time? Like, how do you validate also that they're not messing each other up as they make changes in the code? And maybe what are the limitations today? And what do you think about where the attack is going? [00:18:21]Steve: I want to start with a little history and then I'm going to turn it over to Bian, all right? So we actually had this feature in the very first launch back in June. Dominic wrote it. It was called nonstop Cody. And you could have multiple, basically, LLM requests in parallel modifying your source [00:18:37]Swyx: file. [00:18:37]Steve: And he wrote a bunch of code to handle all of the diffing logic. And you could see the regions of code that the LLM was going to change, right? And he was showing me demos of it. And it just felt like it was just a little before its time, you know? But a bunch of that stuff, that scaffolding was able to be reused for where we're inline [00:18:56]Swyx: sitting today. [00:18:56]Steve: How would you characterize it today? [00:18:58]Beyang: Yeah, so that interface has really evolved from a, like, hey, general purpose, like, request anything inline in the code and have the code update to really, like, targeted features, like, you know, fix the bug that exists at this line or request a very specific [00:19:13]Swyx: change. [00:19:13]Beyang: And the reason for that is, I think, the challenge that we ran into with inline fixes, and we do want to get to the point where you could just fire and forget and have, you know, half a dozen of these running in parallel. But I think we ran into the challenge early on that a lot of people are running into now when they're trying to construct agents, which is the reliability of, you know, working code generation is just not quite there yet in today's language models. And so that kind of constrains you to an interaction where the human is always, like, in the inner loop, like, checking the output of each response. And if you want that to work in a way where you can be asynchronous, you kind of have to constrain it to a domain where today's language models can generate reliable code well enough. So, you know, generating unit tests, that's, like, a well-constrained problem. Or fixing a bug that shows up as, like, a compiler error or a test error, that's a well-constrained problem. But the more general, like, hey, write me this class that does X, Y, and Z using the libraries that I have, that is not quite there yet, even with the benefit of really good context. Like, it definitely moves the needle a lot, but we're not quite there yet to the point where you can just fire and forget. And I actually think that this is something that people don't broadly appreciate yet, because I think that, like, everyone's chasing this dream of agentic execution. And if we're to really define that down, I think it implies a couple things. You have, like, a multi-step process where each step is fully automated. We don't have to have a human in the loop every time. And there's also kind of like an LM call at each stage or nearly every stage in that [00:20:45]Swyx: chain. [00:20:45]Beyang: Based on all the work that we've done, you know, with the inline interactions, with kind of like general Codyfeatures for implementing longer chains of thought, we're actually a little bit more bearish than the average, you know, AI hypefluencer out there on the feasibility of agents with purely kind of like transformer-based models. To your original question, like, the inline interactions with CODI, we actually constrained it to be more targeted, like, you know, fix the current error or make this quick fix. I think that that does differentiate us from a lot of the other tools on the market, because a lot of people are going after this, like, shnazzy, like, inline edit interaction, whereas I think where we've moved, and this is based on the user feedback that we've gotten, it's like that sort of thing, it demos well, but when you're actually coding day to day, you don't want to have, like, a long chat conversation inline with the code base. That's a waste of time. You'd rather just have it write the right thing and then move on with your life or not have to think about it. And that's what we're trying to work towards. [00:21:37]Steve: I mean, yeah, we're not going in the agent direction, right? I mean, I'll believe in agents when somebody shows me one that works. Yeah. Instead, we're working on, you know, sort of solidifying our strength, which is bringing the right context in. So new context sources, ways for you to plug in your own context, ways for you to control or influence the context, you know, the mixing that happens before the request goes out, etc. And there's just so much low-hanging fruit left in that space that, you know, agents seems like a little bit of a boondoggle. [00:22:03]Beyang: Just to dive into that a little bit further, like, I think, you know, at a very high level, what do people mean when they say agents? They really mean, like, greater automation, fully automated, like, the dream is, like, here's an issue, go implement that. And I don't have to think about it as a human. And I think we are working towards that. Like, that is the eventual goal. I think it's specifically the approach of, like, hey, can we have a transformer-based LM alone be the kind of, like, backbone or the orchestrator of these agentic flows? Where we're a little bit more bearish today. [00:22:31]Swyx: You want the human in the loop. [00:22:32]Beyang: I mean, you kind of have to. It's just a reality of the behavior of language models that are purely, like, transformer-based. And I think that's just like a reflection of reality. And I don't think people realize that yet. Because if you look at the way that a lot of other AI tools have implemented context fetching, for instance, like, you see this in the Copilot approach, where if you use, like, the at-workspace thing that supposedly provides, like, code-based level context, it has, like, an agentic approach where you kind of look at how it's behaving. And it feels like they're making multiple requests to the LM being like, what would you do in this case? Would you search for stuff? What sort of files would you gather? Go and read those files. And it's like a multi-hop step, so it takes a long while. It's also non-deterministic. Because any sort of, like, LM invocation, it's like a dice roll. And then at the end of the day, the context it fetches is not that good. Whereas our approach is just like, OK, let's do some code searches that make sense. And then maybe, like, crawl through the reference graph a little bit. That is fast. That doesn't require any sort of LM invocation at all. And we can pull in much better context, you know, very quickly. So it's faster. [00:23:37]Swyx: It's more reliable. [00:23:37]Beyang: It's deterministic. And it yields better context quality. And so that's what we think. We just don't think you should cargo cult or naively go like, you know, agents are the [00:23:46]Swyx: future. [00:23:46]Beyang: Let's just try to, like, implement agents on top of the LM that exists today. I think there are a couple of other technologies or approaches that need to be refined first before we can get into these kind of, like, multi-stage, fully automated workflows. [00:24:00]Swyx: It makes sense. You know, we're very much focused on developer inner loop right now. But you do see things eventually moving towards developer outer loop. Yeah. So would you basically say that they're tackling the agent's problem that you don't want to tackle? [00:24:11]Beyang: No, I would say at a high level, we are after maybe, like, the same high level problem, which is like, hey, I want some code written. I want to develop some software and can automate a system. Go build that software for me. I think the approaches might be different. So I think the analogy in my mind is, I think about, like, the AI chess players. Coding, in some senses, I mean, it's similar and dissimilar to chess. I think one question I ask is, like, do you think producing code is more difficult than playing chess or less difficult than playing chess? More. [00:24:41]Swyx: I think more. [00:24:41]Beyang: Right. And if you look at the best AI chess players, like, yes, you can use an LLM to play chess. Like, people have showed demos where it's like, oh, like, yeah, GPT-4 is actually a pretty decent, like, chess move suggester. Right. But you would never build, like, a best in class chess player off of GPT-4 alone. [00:24:57]Swyx: Right. [00:24:57]Beyang: Like, the way that people design chess players is that you have kind of like a search space and then you have a way to explore that search space efficiently. There's a bunch of search algorithms, essentially. We were doing tree search in various ways. And you can have heuristic functions, which might be powered by an LLM. [00:25:12]Swyx: Right. [00:25:12]Beyang: Like, you might use an LLM to generate proposals in that space that you can efficiently explore. But the backbone is still this kind of more formalized tree search based approach rather than the LLM itself. And so I think my high level intuition is that, like, the way that we get to more reliable multi-step workflows that do things beyond, you know, generate unit test, it's really going to be like a search based approach where you use an LLM as kind of like an advisor or a proposal function, sort of your heuristic function, like the ASTAR search algorithm. But it's probably not going to be the thing that is the backbone, because I guess it's not the right tool for that. Yeah. [00:25:50]Swyx: I can see yourself kind of thinking through this, but not saying the words, the sort of philosophical Peter Norvig type discussion. Maybe you want to sort of introduce that in software. Yeah, definitely. [00:25:59]Beyang: So your listeners are savvy. They're probably familiar with the classic like Chomsky versus Norvig debate. [00:26:04]Swyx: No, actually, I wanted, I was prompting you to introduce that. Oh, got it. [00:26:08]Beyang: So, I mean, if you look at the history of artificial intelligence, right, you know, it goes way back to, I don't know, it's probably as old as modern computers, like 50s, 60s, 70s. People are debating on like, what is the path to producing a sort of like general human level of intelligence? And kind of two schools of thought that emerged. One is the Norvig school of thought, which roughly speaking includes large language models, you know, regression, SVN, basically any model that you kind of like learn from data. And it's like data driven. Most of machine learning would fall under this umbrella. And that school of thought says like, you know, just learn from the data. That's the approach to reaching intelligence. And then the Chomsky approach is more things like compilers and parsers and formal systems. So basically like, let's think very carefully about how to construct a formal, precise system. And that will be the approach to how we build a truly intelligent system. I think Lisp was invented so that you could create like rules-based systems that you would call AI. As a language. Yeah. And for a long time, there was like this debate, like there's certain like AI research labs that were more like, you know, in the Chomsky camp and others that were more in the Norvig camp. It's a debate that rages on today. And I feel like the consensus right now is that, you know, Norvig definitely has the upper hand right now with the advent of LMs and diffusion models and all the other recent progress in machine learning. But the Chomsky-based stuff is still really useful in my view. I mean, it's like parsers, compilers, basically a lot of the stuff that provides really good context. It provides kind of like the knowledge graph backbone that you want to explore with your AI dev tool. Like that will come from kind of like Chomsky-based tools like compilers and parsers. It's a lot of what we've invested in in the past decade at Sourcegraph and what you build with Grok. Basically like these formal systems that construct these very precise knowledge graphs that are great context providers and great kind of guard rails enforcers and kind of like safety checkers for the output of a more kind of like data-driven, fuzzier system that uses like the Norvig-based models. [00:28:03]Steve: Jang was talking about this stuff like it happened in the middle ages. Like, okay, so when I was in college, I was in college learning Lisp and prologue and planning and all the deterministic Chomsky approaches to AI. And I was there when Norvig basically declared it dead. I was there 3,000 years ago when Norvig and Chomsky fought on the volcano. When did he declare it dead? [00:28:26]Swyx: What do you mean he declared it dead? [00:28:27]Steve: It was like late 90s. [00:28:29]Swyx: Yeah. [00:28:29]Steve: When I went to Google, Peter Norvig was already there. He had basically like, I forget exactly where. It was some, he's got so many famous short posts, you know, amazing. [00:28:38]Swyx: He had a famous talk, the unreasonable effectiveness of data. Yeah. [00:28:41]Steve: Maybe that was it. But at some point, basically, he basically convinced everybody that deterministic approaches had failed and that heuristic-based, you know, data-driven statistical approaches, stochastic were better. [00:28:52]Swyx: Yeah. [00:28:52]Steve: The primary reason I can tell you this, because I was there, was that, was that, well, the steam-powered engine, no. The reason was that the deterministic stuff didn't scale. [00:29:06]Swyx: Yeah. Right. [00:29:06]Steve: They're using prologue, man, constraint systems and stuff like that. Well, that was a long time ago, right? Today, actually, these Chomsky-style systems do scale. And that's, in fact, exactly what Sourcegraph has built. Yeah. And so we have a very unique, I love the framing that Bjong's made, that the marriage of the Chomsky and the Norvig, you know, sort of models, you know, conceptual models, because we, you know, we have both of them and they're both really important. And in fact, there, there's this really interesting, like, kind of overlap between them, right? Where like the AI or our graph or our search engine could potentially provide the right context for any given query, which is, of course, why ranking is important. But what we've really signed ourselves up for is an extraordinary amount of testing. [00:29:45]Swyx: Yeah. [00:29:45]Steve: Because in SWIGs, you were saying that, you know, GPT-4 tends to the front of the context window and maybe other LLMs to the back and maybe, maybe the LLM in the middle. [00:29:53]Swyx: Yeah. [00:29:53]Steve: And so that means that, you know, if we're actually like, you know, verifying whether we, you know, some change we've made has improved things, we're going to have to test putting it at the beginning of the window and at the end of the window, you know, and maybe make the right decision based on the LLM that you've chosen. Which some of our competitors, that's a problem that they don't have, but we meet you, you know, where you are. Yeah. And we're, just to finish, we're writing tens of thousands. We're generating tests, you know, fill in the middle type tests and things. And then using our graph to basically sort of fine tune Cody's behavior there. [00:30:20]Swyx: Yeah. [00:30:21]Beyang: I also want to add, like, I have like an internal pet name for this, like kind of hybrid architecture that I'm trying to make catch on. Maybe I'll just say it here. Just saying it publicly kind of makes it more real. But like, I call the architecture that we've developed the Normsky architecture. [00:30:36]Swyx: Yeah. [00:30:36]Beyang: I mean, it's obviously a portmanteau of Norvig and Chomsky, but the acronym, it stands for non-agentic, rapid, multi-source code intelligence. So non-agentic because... Rolls right off the tongue. And Normsky. But it's non-agentic in the sense that like, we're not trying to like pitch you on kind of like agent hype, right? Like it's the things it does are really just developer tools developers have been using for decades now, like parsers and really good search indexes and things like that. Rapid because we place an emphasis on speed. We don't want to sit there waiting for kind of like multiple LLM requests to return to complete a simple user request. Multi-source because we're thinking broadly about what pieces of information and knowledge are useful context. So obviously starting with things that you can search in your code base, and then you add in the reference graph, which kind of like allows you to crawl outward from those initial results. But then even beyond that, you know, sources of information, like there's a lot of knowledge that's embedded in docs, in PRDs or product specs, in your production logging system, in your chat, in your Slack channel, right? Like there's so much context is embedded there. And when you're a human developer, and you're trying to like be productive in your code base, you're going to go to all these different systems to collect the context that you need to figure out what code you need to write. And I don't think the AI developer will be any different. It will need to pull context from all these different sources. So we're thinking broadly about how to integrate these into Codi. We hope through kind of like an open protocol that like others can extend and implement. And this is something else that should be accessible by December 14th in kind of like a preview stage. But that's really about like broadening this notion of the code graph beyond your Git repository to all the other sources where technical knowledge and valuable context can live. [00:32:21]Steve: Yeah, it becomes an artifact graph, right? It can link into your logs and your wikis and any data source, right? [00:32:27]Alessio: How do you guys think about the importance of, it's almost like data pre-processing in a way, which is bring it all together, tie it together, make it ready. Any thoughts on how to actually make that good? Some of the innovation you guys have made. [00:32:40]Steve: We talk a lot about the context fetching, right? I mean, there's a lot of ways you could answer this question. But, you know, we've spent a lot of time just in this podcast here talking about context fetching. But stuffing the context into the window is, you know, the bin packing problem, right? Because the window is not big enough, and you've got more context than you can fit. You've got a ranker maybe. But what is that context? Is it a function that was returned by an embedding or a graph call or something? Do you need the whole function? Or do you just need, you know, the top part of the function, this expression here, right? You know, so that art, the golf game of trying to, you know, get each piece of context down into its smallest state, possibly even summarized by another model, right, before it even goes to the LLM, becomes this is the game that we're in, yeah? And so, you know, recursive summarization and all the other techniques that you got to use to like stuff stuff into that context window become, you know, critically important. And you have to test them across every configuration of models that you could possibly need. [00:33:32]Beyang: I think data preprocessing is probably the like unsexy, way underappreciated secret to a lot of the cool stuff that people are shipping today. Whether you're doing like RAG or fine tuning or pre-training, like the preprocessing step matters so much because it's basically garbage in, garbage out, right? Like if you're feeding in garbage to the model, then it's going to output garbage. Concretely, you know, for code RAG, if you're not doing some sort of like preprocessing that takes advantage of a parser and is able to like extract the key components of a particular file of code, you know, separate the function signature from the body, from the doc string, what are you even doing? Like that's like table stakes. It opens up so much more possibilities with which you can kind of like tune your system to take advantage of the signals that come from those different parts of the code. Like we've had a tool, you know, since computers were invented that understands the structure of source code to a hundred percent precision. The compiler knows everything there is to know about the code in terms of like structure. Like why would you not want to use that in a system that's trying to generate code, answer questions about code? You shouldn't throw that out the window just because now we have really good, you know, data-driven models that can do other things. [00:34:44]Steve: Yeah. When I called it a data moat, you know, in my cheating post, a lot of people were confused, you know, because data moat sort of sounds like data lake because there's data and water and stuff. I don't know. And so they thought that we were sitting on this giant mountain of data that we had collected, but that's not what our data moat is. It's really a data pre-processing engine that can very quickly and scalably, like basically dissect your entire code base in a very small, fine-grained, you know, semantic unit and then serve it up. Yeah. And so it's really, it's not a data moat. It's a data pre-processing moat, I guess. [00:35:15]Beyang: Yeah. If anything, we're like hypersensitive to customer data privacy requirements. So it's not like we've taken a bunch of private data and like, you know, trained a generally available model. In fact, exactly the opposite. A lot of our customers are choosing Cody over Copilot and other competitors because we have an explicit guarantee that we don't do any of that. And that we've done that from day one. Yeah. I think that's a very real concern in today's day and age, because like if your proprietary IP finds its way into the training set of any model, it's very easy both to like extract that knowledge from the model and also use it to, you know, build systems that kind of work on top of the institutional knowledge that you've built up. [00:35:52]Alessio: About a year ago, I wrote a post on LLMs for developers. And one of the points I had was maybe the depth of like the DSL. I spent most of my career writing Ruby and I love Ruby. It's so nice to use, but you know, it's not as performant, but it's really easy to read, right? And then you look at other languages, maybe they're faster, but like they're more verbose, you know? And when you think about efficiency of the context window, that actually matters. [00:36:15]Swyx: Yeah. [00:36:15]Alessio: But I haven't really seen a DSL for models, you know? I haven't seen like code being optimized to like be easier to put in a model context. And it seems like your pre-processing is kind of doing that. Do you see in the future, like the way we think about the DSL and APIs and kind of like service interfaces be more focused on being context friendly, where it's like maybe it's harder to read for the human, but like the human is never going to write it anyway. We were talking on the Hacks podcast. There are like some data science things like spin up the spandex, like humans are never going to write again because the models can just do very easily. Yeah, curious to hear your thoughts. [00:36:51]Steve: Well, so DSLs, they involve, you know, writing a grammar and a parser and they're like little languages, right? We do them that way because, you know, we need them to compile and humans need to be able to read them and so on. The LLMs don't need that level of structure. You can throw any pile of crap at them, you know, more or less unstructured and they'll deal with it. So I think that's why a DSL hasn't emerged for sort of like communicating with the LLM or packaging up the context or anything. Maybe it will at some point, right? We've got, you know, tagging of context and things like that that are sort of peeking into DSL territory, right? But your point on do users, you know, do people have to learn DSLs like regular expressions or, you know, pick your favorite, right? XPath. I think you're absolutely right that the LLMs are really, really good at that. And I think you're going to see a lot less of people having to slave away learning these things. They just have to know the broad capabilities and the LLM will take care of the rest. [00:37:42]Swyx: Yeah, I'd agree with that. [00:37:43]Beyang: I think basically like the value profit of DSL is that it makes it easier to work with a lower level language, but at the expense of introducing an abstraction layer. And in many cases today, you know, without the benefit of AI cogeneration, like that totally worth it, right? With the benefit of AI cogeneration, I mean, I don't think all DSLs will go away. I think there's still, you know, places where that trade-off is going to be worthwhile. But it's kind of like how much of source code do you think is going to be generated through natural language prompting in the future? Because in a way, like any programming language is just a DSL on top of assembly, right? And so if people can do that, then yeah, like maybe for a large portion of the code [00:38:21]Swyx: that's written, [00:38:21]Beyang: people don't actually have to understand the DSL that is Ruby or Python or basically any other programming language that exists. [00:38:28]Steve: I mean, seriously, do you guys ever write SQL queries now without using a model of some sort? At least a draft. [00:38:34]Swyx: Yeah, right. [00:38:36]Steve: And so we have kind of like, you know, past that bridge, right? [00:38:39]Alessio: Yeah, I think like to me, the long-term thing is like, is there ever going to be, you don't actually see the code, you know? It's like, hey, the basic thing is like, hey, I need a function to some two numbers and that's it. I don't need you to generate the code. [00:38:53]Steve: And the following question, do you need the engineer or the paycheck? [00:38:56]Swyx: I mean, right? [00:38:58]Alessio: That's kind of the agent's discussion in a way where like you cannot automate the agents, but like slowly you're getting more of the atomic units of the work kind of like done. I kind of think of it as like, you know, [00:39:09]Beyang: do you need a punch card operator to answer that for you? And so like, I think we're still going to have people in the role of a software engineer, but the portion of time they spend on these kinds of like low-level, tedious tasks versus the higher level, more creative tasks is going to shift. [00:39:23]Steve: No, I haven't used punch cards. [00:39:25]Swyx: Yeah, I've been talking about like, so we kind of made this podcast about the sort of rise of the AI engineer. And like the first step is the AI enhanced engineer. That is that software developer that is no longer doing these routine, boilerplate-y type tasks, because they're just enhanced by tools like yours. So you mentioned OpenCodeGraph. I mean, that is a kind of DSL maybe, and because we're releasing this as you go GA, you hope for other people to take advantage of that? [00:39:52]Beyang: Oh yeah, I would say so OpenCodeGraph is not a DSL. It's more of a protocol. It's basically like, hey, if you want to make your system, whether it's, you know, chat or logging or whatever accessible to an AI developer tool like Cody, here's kind of like the schema by which you can provide that context and offer hints. So I would, you know, comparisons like LSP obviously did this for kind of like standard code intelligence. It's kind of like a lingua franca for providing fine references and codefinition. There's kind of like analogs to that. There might be also analogs to kind of the original OpenAI, kind of like plugins, API. There's all this like context out there that might be useful for an LM-based system to consume. And so at a high level, what we're trying to do is define a common language for context providers to provide context to other tools in the software development lifecycle. Yeah. Do you have any critiques of LSP, by the way, [00:40:42]Swyx: since like this is very much, very close to home? [00:40:45]Steve: One of the authors wrote a really good critique recently. Yeah. I don't think I saw that. Yeah, yeah. LSP could have been better. It just came out a couple of weeks ago. It was a good article. [00:40:54]Beyang: Yeah. I think LSP is great. Like for what it did for the developer ecosystem, it was absolutely fantastic. Like nowadays, like it's much easier now to get code navigation up and running in a bunch of editors by speaking this protocol. I think maybe the interesting question is like looking at the different design decisions comparing LSP basically with Kythe. Because Kythe has more of a... How would you describe it? [00:41:18]Steve: A storage format. [00:41:20]Beyang: I think the critique of LSP from a Kythe point of view would be like with LSP, you don't actually have an actual symbolic model of the code. It's not like LSP models like, hey, this function calls this other function. LSP is all like range-based. Like, hey, your cursor's at line 32, column 1. [00:41:35]Swyx: Yeah. [00:41:35]Beyang: And that's the thing you feed into the language server. And then it's like, okay, here's the range that you should jump to if you click on that range. So it kind of is intentionally ignorant of the fact that there's a thing called a reference underneath your cursor, and that's linked to a symbol definition. [00:41:49]Steve: Well, actually, that's the worst example you could have used. You're right. But that's the one thing that it actually did bake in is following references. [00:41:56]Swyx: Sure. [00:41:56]Steve: But it's sort of hardwired. [00:41:58]Swyx: Yeah. [00:41:58]Steve: Whereas Kythe attempts to model [00:42:00]Beyang: like all these things explicitly. [00:42:02]Swyx: And so... [00:42:02]Steve: Well, so LSP is a protocol, right? And so Google's internal protocol is gRPC-based. And it's a different approach than LSP. It's basically you make a heavy query to the back end, and you get a lot of data back, and then you render the whole page, you know? So we've looked at LSP, and we think that it's a little long in the tooth, right? I mean, it's a great protocol, lots and lots of support for it. But we need to push into the domain of exposing the intelligence through the protocol. Yeah. [00:42:29]Beyang: And so I would say we've developed a protocol of our own called Skip, which is at a very high level trying to take some of the good ideas from LSP and from Kythe and merge that into a system that in the near term is useful for Sourcegraph, but I think in the long term, we hope will be useful for the ecosystem. Okay, so here's what LSP did well. LSP, by virtue of being like intentionally dumb, dumb in air quotes, because I'm not like ragging on it, allowed language servers developers to kind of like bypass the hard problem of like modeling language semantics precisely. So like if all you want to do is jump to definition, you don't have to come up with like a universally unique naming scheme for each symbol, which is actually quite challenging because you have to think about like, okay, what's the top scope of this name? Is it the source code repository? Is it the package? Does it depend on like what package server you're fetching this from? Like whether it's the public one or the one inside your... Anyways, like naming is hard, right? And by just going from kind of like a location to location based approach, you basically just like throw that out the window. All I care about is jumping definition, just make that work. And you can make that work without having to deal with like all the complex global naming things. The limitation of that approach is that it's harder to build on top of that to build like a true knowledge graph. Like if you actually want a system that says like, okay, here's the web of functions and here's how they reference each other. And I want to incorporate that like semantic model of how the code operates or how the code relates to each other at like a static level. You can't do that with LSP because you have to deal with line ranges. And like concretely the pain point that we found in using LSP for source graph is like in order to do like a find references [00:44:04]Swyx: and then jump definitions, [00:44:04]Beyang: it's like a multi-hop process because like you have to jump to the range and then you have to find the symbol at that range. And it just adds a lot of latency and complexity of these operations where as a human, you're like, well, this thing clearly references this other thing. Why can't you just jump me to that? And I think that's the thing that Kaith does well. But then I think the issue that Kaith has had with adoption is because it is more sophisticated schema, I think. And so there's basically more things that you have to implement to get like a Kaith implementation up and running. I hope I'm not like, correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. [00:44:35]Steve: 100%, 100%. Kaith also has a problem, all these systems have the problem, even skip, or at least the way that we implemented the indexers, that they have to integrate with your build system in order to build that knowledge graph, right? Because you have to basically compile the code in a special mode to generate artifacts instead of binaries. And I would say, by the way, earlier I was saying that XREFs were in LSP, but it's actually, I was thinking of LSP plus LSIF. [00:44:58]Swyx: Yeah. That's another. [00:45:01]Steve: Which is actually bad. We can say that it's bad, right? [00:45:04]Steve: It's like skip or Kaith, it's supposed to be sort of a model serialization, you know, for the code graph, but it basically just does what LSP needs, the bare minimum. LSIF is basically if you took LSP [00:45:16]Beyang: and turned that into a serialization format. So like you build an index for language servers to kind of like quickly bootstrap from cold start. But it's a graph model [00:45:23]Steve: with all of the inconvenience of the API without an actual graph. And so, yeah. [00:45:29]Beyang: So like one of the things that we try to do with skip is try to capture the best of both worlds. So like make it easy to write an indexer, make the schema simple, but also model some of the more symbolic characteristics of the code that would allow us to essentially construct this knowledge graph that we can then make useful for both the human developer through SourceGraph and through the AI developer through Cody. [00:45:49]Steve: So anyway, just to finish off the graph comment, we've got a new graph, yeah, that's skip based. We call it BFG internally, right? It's a beautiful something graph. A big friendly graph. [00:46:00]Swyx: A big friendly graph. [00:46:01]Beyang: It's a blazing fast. [00:46:02]Steve: Blazing fast. [00:46:03]Swyx: Blazing fast graph. [00:46:04]Steve: And it is blazing fast, actually. It's really, really interesting. I should probably have to do a blog post about it to walk you through exactly how they're doing it. Oh, please. But it's a very AI-like iterative, you know, experimentation sort of approach. We're building a code graph based on all of our 10 years of knowledge about building code graphs, yeah? But we're building it quickly with zero configuration, and it doesn't have to integrate with your build. And through some magic tricks that we have. And so what just happens when you install the plugin, that it'll be there and indexing your code and providing that knowledge graph in the background without all that build system integration. This is a bit of secret sauce that we haven't really like advertised it very much lately. But I am super excited about it because what they do is they say, all right, you know, let's tackle function parameters today. Cody's not doing a very good job of completing function call arguments or function parameters in the definition, right? Yeah, we generate those thousands of tests, and then we can actually reuse those tests for the AI context as well. So fortunately, things are kind of converging on, we have, you know, half a dozen really, really good context sources, and we mix them all together. So anyway, BFG, you're going to hear more about it probably in the holidays? [00:47:12]Beyang: I think it'll be online for December 14th. We'll probably mention it. BFG is probably not the public name we're going to go with. I think we might call it like Graph Context or something like that. [00:47:20]Steve: We're officially calling it BFG. [00:47:22]Swyx: You heard it here first. [00:47:24]Beyang: BFG is just kind of like the working name. And so the impetus for BFG was like, if you look at like current AI inline code completion tools and the errors that they make, a lot of the errors that they make, even in kind of like the easy, like single line case, are essentially like type errors, right? Like you're trying to complete a function call and it suggests a variable that you defined earlier, but that variable is the wrong type. [00:47:47]Swyx: And that's the sort of thing [00:47:47]Beyang: where it's like a first year, like freshman CS student would not make that error, right? So like, why does the AI make that error? And the reason is, I mean, the AI is just suggesting things that are plausible without the context of the types or any other like broader files in the code. And so the kind of intuition here is like, why don't we just do the basic thing that like any baseline intelligent human developer would do, which is like click jump to definition, click some fine references and pull in that like Graph Context into the context window and then have it generate the completion. So like that's sort of like the MVP of what BFG was. And turns out that works really well. Like you can eliminate a lot of type errors that AI coding tools make just by pulling in that context. Yeah, but the graph is definitely [00:48:32]Steve: our Chomsky side. [00:48:33]Swyx: Yeah, exactly. [00:48:34]Beyang: So like this like Chomsky-Norvig thing, I think pops up in a bunch of differ

Steve Falconer, Part one

Rose Plate Special: Charity, Week 9 Here's what we'll say about the finale: Kudos to the producers for faking out Sammi fairly effectively, but is it even a fakeout when she was operating on little sleep and lots of pinball on the brain? Hard to say. See you all for a bonus episode of Jilly Box opening before Season 16 of our podcast launches at the end of September! Transcription Please forgive minor typos! Sammi: And you're listening to Rose Plate Special, the most dramatic googly eyeingist I have nothing for this because everything we said. Steve: Was going to happen, happened. Sammi: Paradise promoing us recap podcast of The Bachelorette ever. Sammi: Yeah, it was so bad. Steve: Ever. Steve: Sammi. Steve: Are you the bachelorette? Steve: Nostradamus perhaps. Sammi: Maybe. Sammi: But here's the thing that's interesting. Sammi: So first of all, sorry this is late everyone. Sammi: I was on vacation and I actually took a break, which I never do, and so you should all be proud of me. Sammi: But here we are also. Sammi: Okay, so a couple of pieces of news. Sammi: So yes, I was on vacation and that was fun. Sammi: That's not really news. Sammi: Second piece of news that is news. Sammi: The jilly box is coming probably in the next day or two. Sammi: So if you are interested, we can do another special we'll do between now and like The Golden Bachelor. Sammi: We can do a special jilly unboxing for. Sammi: Oh, and then yeah, here's what's interesting about this. Sammi: Also, my notes are a little spotty, so I may need you to fill in because I watched this. Sammi: So I was just telling Steve that one of the things that we did on vacation is we went to this retrocade and we played all you can play Pinball until like, I don't know, almost two in the morning. Sammi: And we got home and we started talking about the top 100 pinball games and we were talking about what we would want in our basement and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sammi: And then I was like, oh s***, I got to start watching The Bachelorete in case we decide we want to record. Sammi: So I went to bed at four in the morning. Sammi: This is not like me. Steve: And we're recording late anyways. Sammi: Yeah, I was up until four in the morning watching it and then I woke up the next day and finished it. Sammi: So I might have missed some key things because I was all jacked up about pinball. Sammi: Like I literally had maybe two drinks the whole night. Sammi: It wasn't like, oh, it's partying hard. Sammi: I was like really trying to crack the game. Sammi: Barbed wire. Sammi: Could not get it. Sammi: Oh wow, not get it. Sammi: But medieval madness. Sammi: I had a really good round. Sammi: Yeah, it's one of my favorites. Sammi: Anyway, so that's what I was doing when I was taking notes. Sammi: But yeah, so what's interesting though is despite knowing everything that happened, they tricked me. Sammi: I got tricked because I was like, oh my God, maybe it is going to be Joey. Sammi: And I was like, wow, everything I thought was wrong. Sammi: And I was like so shocked. Sammi: And I was like, no way. Sammi: So they fooled me hard. Sammi: I really just was like, oh, this is how everyone's leaning and this is what's going to happen. Sammi: And last week I was like, datten is a sure thing, he is a sure thing. Sammi: And then I was like, I'm just not so sure. Steve: So we've been in this game long enough. Steve: Sammi, this is the trickery. Steve: Because they knew that we knew that to was going to run away with this thing, so they had to throw us some swerves. Sammi: I got so fooled. Steve: Well, one thing's for sure, because this episode starts off on Aaron, nobody in the entire universe thought that Aaron was going to be sticking don. Steve: I don't think they do Vegas odds for the Bachelor or the Bachelorete. Steve: But if they did, you wouldn't even be allowed to bet on Aaron because that's how bad of a shot he. Sammi: So yeah, it was just so basically and also they do this thing at the very beginning and, like, dawn gets claps and Joey gets claps and Aaron got nothing. Steve: No, and it's not because he's a bad guy. Steve: He's the most uninteresting man in the world. Sammi: They were just did something. Sammi: Did you just say Aaron? Sammi: Oh, I missed it. Sammi: I was thinking about something. Sammi: So and then when they're like, we're going to do a thing that's never happened. Sammi: Okay, this was my guess, which I think is funny. Sammi: Like Charity's brother is going to come on and propose to a long term partner on the show. Sammi: But that didn't happen. Sammi: But that's what I thought because I was like, bring nehemiah back. Sammi: But that's not what happened. Sammi: So this is the best part, too, is Aaron. Sammi: So she's like, obviously this is what was going through Charity's mind. Sammi: I'm thinking is she was probably like, he came all the way to Fiji. Sammi: What am I going to do, say go home? Sammi: She's like, I have to make it feel like he has somewhat of a shot or like something could happen. Sammi: But I love that she was like, this is giving me acid reflux. Steve: Yeah, it's like, bro, you flew probably like 14 hours just to get dumped, which is real sad. Steve: And if someone in production had half a heart, they would have told you to stay at home, but they didn't. Steve: And then it's also sad because it's like, I mean, we all knew you had to know deep down that she didn't have a shot. Steve: And then when she's finally and you know, she walks about and everything, he's just like, well, it's okay. Steve: I'm still in your corner. Steve: It's like, dude, she doesn't need you and you don't need to be here. Steve: What are you doing here? Steve: What's going on, Aaron? Sammi: Come on. Steve: Come on. Steve: I don't know. Steve: And then he's such a dork and not in the fun way. Steve: It's just uninteresting. Steve: And then he's going to be on paradise and I could not find a shred of anything inside of myself that got excited for Aaron on. Sammi: Feel like I feel like you just like Aaron a lot more than I do. Sammi: But I just felt really bad for like I was just I mean, maybe this was something that raised his stock enough to make it worth it for him to be on paradise. Sammi: It gave him more of a story that's something that some of the women on the beach might be like, wow, that's so romantic. Sammi: You flew all the way to Fiji. Sammi: It could work in his favor, for sure. Sammi: But yeah, I was mean, I don't know. Sammi: And then he was like, the emotions I've always felt it's good to feel again. Sammi: And I was like, it's been like two days, Aaron. Sammi: I mean, it's not like it's been so long. Sammi: It's like maybe been a couple days. Sammi: But the best part about this whole thing was they get to the rose ceremony and Joey's like, am I on drugs? Sammi: He's like, blinking. Sammi: I don't have glasses to clean. Sammi: What's happening? Sammi: Wait, Aaron's here and Xavier isn't? Sammi: It was so sweet that he was like, what? Sammi: I don't even know. Sammi: And then as soon as she gave Joey a rose, I was like, well, Erin is going home because obviously Dotton's getting the other one. Sammi: That was really obvious. Sammi: And then she's like, Erin, can you come with me? Sammi: And he knew. Sammi: Then he's like, okay, yeah, Aaron is. Steve: In the top three because technically you have to have a top three. Steve: So what are you going to do? Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: I guess at the end I feel like at the end that we've had it before, where it's just like two of them, where one of them goes home early and then it's just the two of them at the rose ceremony. Sammi: It's like, well, you both get the roses. Sammi: No drama there. Sammi: Goodbye. Sammi: Yeah, but yeah, so that was inevitable. Sammi: It was just inevitable. Sammi: All my notes about Erin talking with Jesse afterwards were just that it was a generic talk and he's going to be in paradise. Sammi: And when they announced he was in paradise, I was like, that means he's not the bachelor. Sammi: And that's good. Sammi: Yeah, because that wouldn't be interesting unless they gave him his own camera. Sammi: Because I do think his insecurities would be interesting to watch. Sammi: His internal monologue would be interesting to watch. Sammi: But now we get the time with Charity's family and Joey is first. Sammi: And Joey had a terrible hometown date. Sammi: I mean, it wasn't like the worst hometown date, but it was just like awkward and lacking and he had the worst out of the four. Steve: I shouldn't say it was a B minus. Steve: It was not like a colossal faceplant like in the past. Steve: And many a man has gotten farther or as far as Joey with a worse hometown, but it was not yeah, yeah. Sammi: It just was like, oh, wow. Sammi: And so of course, then, so what's interesting is what I'm trying to say is Joey's hometown date was not very good. Sammi: But with Charity's family, it was like, he's the one and he's the best one, and don't let him slip away. Sammi: He's perfect. Sammi: And then, you know, Dalton's hometown, it was like, you are our family now. Sammi: You are stuck with us. Sammi: You two are soulmates. Sammi: This is happening. Sammi: And then yeah, it's like I can't really talk about this without comparing these right away. Sammi: But then Dalton's time with Charity's family was just kind of like I don't know, I mean like he's fine or whatever. Sammi: He's just familiar and he's just kind of like who she always goes for. Steve: And that's interesting too. Sammi: We want to see her shake it up a little bit. Sammi: And I was like, is this really the time to be like rolling the dice? Sammi: I don't know, it was just kind of a weird yeah, anyway just try. Steve: To commit to marriage. Steve: Yeah right. Steve: But like I don't like I like Joey. Steve: I don't think he's particularly interesting but he's a very nice young man. Sammi: I think he's very sweet. Steve: Yeah, but the thing that really stuck out to me, Dotton also very sweet guy. Sammi: Oh yeah. Steve: But when Charity was know, both these guys meet with her parents and they like both of them but they like Joey Moore. Steve: And her mom made the comment that Dotton was kind of like the guy she had dated in the past. Steve: Which is weird because she said that about Xavier. Steve: And I feel like in my head, aside from them being like African American men in their mid to late twenty s, I don't see a lot of similarities between Xavier. Sammi: They're very different I will say. Sammi: I mean they both have interest in the health fields. Sammi: I guess that would be a commonality but Dotton's coming at it from more of a coachee integrative health personal trainer. Steve: And that kind of an interest. Steve: It doesn't really inform their vibes or their personality. Sammi: Personalities are very different. Sammi: But that's the only other thing that at least what I could see. Sammi: They have that in common. Sammi: But Xavier's in a lab and datten's more like with so that's very mean. Sammi: Like their families were pretty mean. Sammi: I just don't get the think and maybe I could be wrong. Sammi: I don't feel like dunn's one of those go out with the boys kind of guys like oh well, if I'm out with my boys and something like I just would be surprised if he but I was surprised when Xavier said it, so who the h*** knows. Sammi: But I just don't get that feeling from him that that's something that's super important to him to be out with a bunch of toxic dudes. Sammi: I don't that's but it could just be know a first impression thing where it's like oh, this seems similar or whatever because Joey is so different that it's just like that's the only way she could compare it. Sammi: I have no like it's like who knows? Sammi: But I think they're both really good dudes. Sammi: But it was interesting and even though it's like I know what happens with production and editing and how they choose the stuff and whatever but still even though I know all that and I've been watching this show for 20 plus years, I was still like, oh, no, this is not good. Sammi: And I was like, maybe Danton's not as good as I thought he was. Sammi: Because also last week we were thrown for a loop. Sammi: So I was like, oh, maybe all the things that I was feeling about how good they were together are wrong. Sammi: And then they, of course, did stuff where it's like she's saying I love you to Joey, and then Dotton says I love you to her and she doesn't say it back, and you're like, oh, God. Sammi: Oh, no, what's happening? Sammi: This is so bad. Steve: I like a season designed around just, like, emotionally messing with basically well, that's how I felt. Sammi: I was like, what is going on? Sammi: And it's like, late at night and I'm tired and I'm watching this episode and I'm like, what is happening? Sammi: And then, yeah, gosh. Sammi: I don't mean I will say because I feel like the other thing that Charity's mom seemed to focus on was just like, how Joey is just googly eyed all the time. Sammi: But I feel like his I don't think he would ever be like, he is affectionate and whatever, but he's more like, I don't know, kind of secure and solid and whatever. Sammi: So I think the way they just look at someone they're interested in is different. Sammi: But anyway, it was an interesting juxtaposition, and I wrote wow a lot on my notes, apparently. Sammi: I'm like, wow, family thinks he's the one. Steve: Wow. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: And then this whole thing is, like, interspersed with this whole oh, well, one of you is going to date the bachelor, but you don't know which one of you it is. Sammi: But we invited you all here, so it's one of the people we invited here. Sammi: It's obviously not going to be some random person from the audience. Steve: Yeah. Sammi: And I was like, everybody stand up if you would like to date the Bachelor, like, what the h***? Sammi: This is not how this works. Sammi: And he interviews all these people. Sammi: This was one thing that I thought was weird, and I was trying to find some conversation about it online, and I could not because they had someone from Oahu get interviewed. Sammi: Right. Sammi: And Joey lives in Hawaii and everything and everything that happened in Lahaina. Sammi: Which happened in my family's neighborhood. Sammi: And luckily their house is still okay, but I don't know if they even know if some of their friends are alive. Sammi: It was very strange that they didn't did I miss it? Sammi: Because I'm like, I was tired and I did not watch this live. Sammi: They didn't say anything about what happened in Lahaina. Sammi: Did they? Sammi: I mean, I know it's a different island, but a lot of people got moved to, um, for safety and because of capacity and all that stuff. Sammi: And I was like, this is strange. Sammi: This is live. Sammi: So this already happened. Steve: Yeah. Steve: That you'd think that they would make some mention of it. Steve: Now, it was really entirely possible that I got up to get another slice of pizza or grab a drink or go to the bathroom or whatever. Steve: I have zero recollection of them saying anything. Steve: So if they said it, it wasn't a prominent point in the episode. Sammi: It was just weird that they focused so much on Oahu and where Joey's living, right? Sammi: Like, it's just so strange. Sammi: And I'm confused that they didn't mention anything. Sammi: And I feel like they've gotten better about stuff like that, where it's like, oh, this is something, even if the conversation is a little put on, where they're like, we're going to have a serious talk, and then they kind of talk about something, then they're like, we're glad we had this serious talk. Sammi: But I was like, this is weird that you're focusing extra on it, that you're bringing in somebody to be on the show who lives on Oahu, and then you don't bring it. Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: Anyway, if anybody else feels the same way, let me know. Sammi: But I thought that was OD. Sammi: That's all. Sammi: Totally. Sammi: Not that I think The Bachelor is great for that stuff in general, but it's like if you want to start changing your image and gearing towards a younger audience, you might want to, I don't know, be in touch with reality anyway, especially something like that, where it's. Steve: Like the thing dominating the news cycle. Steve: It's like, hey, you want an easy layup? Steve: Guys just say anything? Steve: Apparently not. Sammi: Oh, well, yeah, it's just really strange. Sammi: Anyway, I'll let you know if I find any conversations about it. Sammi: But I was, like, trying to Google it. Sammi: I was like, is anybody else frustrated about this? Sammi: But I didn't see anything. Sammi: But I also wasn't looking super duper hard. Sammi: I was looking half. Sammi: So charity's, mom. Sammi: Okay, so with datten yes. Sammi: She's like, he checks the boxes, right? Sammi: He's familiar. Sammi: Familiar is easy. Sammi: She wants Charity to have a hard time, I guess I don't. Sammi: And I wrote, well, maybe Joey Winston dotten's the obvious Bachelor, but that wouldn't necessarily make sense. Sammi: Dot, dot, dot. Sammi: I'm like, this is where I start to question myself. Sammi: Yeah, and Charity is having a hard time, too, because she's like, I just want to push. Sammi: I just want a little just a little nudge and like, a direct just tell me how you're feeling. Sammi: And, okay, this is the part where I felt like I was getting tired and I was getting confused, but I know at the very least, she asked her mom, tell me what you think. Sammi: And her mom's like, I'm not going to do that. Sammi: And she's like, why? Sammi: And she's like, I don't know. Sammi: I'm direct. Sammi: And she's like, but you're not being direct right now. Sammi: That's what I gathered out of it. Sammi: It was like her mom was like, well, you know, I'm direct, but I'm not going to do that for you at this moment. Steve: Yeah. Sammi: And she's like, don't you know what you want? Sammi: And Charity is like, no, that's why I am asking you. Sammi: And she's like, come on, you know. Sammi: Right. Sammi: You know, you know, she's like and then yeah. Sammi: So she goes so she's confused, whatever. Sammi: She has a date with Joey and he brought a very cute gift for Charity. Sammi: They both did a good job with the gifts. Sammi: And he gives her the poem that they got in New Orleans and that's very oh, she mentioned how the poem made the hairs on her arms stand up and they made the hairs on my arm stand up too. Sammi: So whoever's putting this season together, good job. Sammi: I was like, wow. Sammi: And then I was fully sold on at this point. Sammi: I was like, well, if Joey ends up with Charity, I'm okay with that. Sammi: That's good, I'm happy, that's fine. Steve: This is totally mission accomplished, right? Steve: What is the purpose of this episode? Steve: The purpose of this episode is twofold. Steve: One, to make us question what we know to be absolute reality, which is down, it's going to win. Steve: And two, to make us like Joey as much as humanly possible and potentially make him slightly more interesting than he is. Steve: So that when he is announced as the bachelor, we go, okay, I'm fine with that. Steve: I think they pretty much did it. Steve: And honestly, I don't know when Charity was announced. Steve: I'm sure you can go back to an old episode. Steve: I'll just be like, I don't know, no personality, didn't see anything, whatever. Steve: And she's amazing. Steve: She's like the greatest Bachelorete of all time, practically. Steve: Maybe, maybe this will work out. Steve: Maybe I've been selling Joey short. Sammi: Yeah, I mean that's what always I mean outside of like I feel like I always liked Katie before it was Katie's season, you know what mean? Sammi: Like that was kind of an obvious, like Ashley long time. Sammi: Like there's a few people that and I liked, you know, there's like a few people that I was always like, oh yeah, they're going to be good. Sammi: But there's some people we didn't see until the very end. Sammi: Their know, you get like little glimpses of, um, yeah, I think Joey could definitely be a good mean out of what happened. Sammi: Like everything that happened at the end, I was like, well, he's the only obvious choice. Sammi: Like if you don't choose him, you're going into a different season. Sammi: There's no way. Sammi: And anyway, I'm just like looking through the vulture recap to see if there's anything yeah, if there's any notes in there because I just saw something. Sammi: Sorry. Sammi: We're waiting to see if she's going to pick Joey or Don. Sammi: Right. Sammi: We obviously know what uh, and then we get into the then. Sammi: So Brooklyn and Kat are going to be in paradise and Braden's in the audience and they do this paradise promo and they're like four former bachelorettes are crashing the party. Sammi: There's a medical emergency I'm actually really excited about the nine days of no pooping. Steve: Yeah. Steve: I'm also excited about that because we got to hear the word poop baby. Sammi: On national television and a truth box. Sammi: I'm like, all right, okay, cool. Sammi: This sounds great. Sammi: And then there's someone getting married in paradise, and it's probably like an already engaged couple that comes down, like, has happened before, I would assume. Sammi: And then they're like, oh, are Rachel and Brayden going to get together? Sammi: And I got very upset. Sammi: Oh, my God, you better not. Sammi: That sucks. Sammi: And I was looking through this Vulture recap. Sammi: It says, Brayden is here sitting right next to Rachel rechia. Sammi: Get a job. Sammi: Stay away from her et. Sammi: Wait, hold on. Sammi: Wait, what? Sammi: Hold on 1 second. Sammi: Oh, my gosh. Sammi: How did I not know who Gabby was dating? Steve: Oh, yeah, so oh, my is this is something that I was hoping to bring up? Steve: Because I guess I'm dense and I didn't really understand or process or notice it, but it's like, oh, Gabby's dating a woman. Steve: I didn't know that. Sammi: H***. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: Gabby. Steve: Good job, Gabby. Sammi: Yes. Steve: We love I had I had no idea. Steve: And then I was just like, who's that? Steve: I was, oh, that's so cute. Sammi: And she even posted, told you I'm a girls girl. Sammi: Yes. Sammi: Gabby ayo so that's awesome. Sammi: And now I want to rewatch the finale because I was tired and I did not even oh, apparently. Sammi: Okay, so she was on The View, and in an Instagram post yeah. Sammi: She wrote, told you I'm a girls girl. Sammi: And yeah. Sammi: So it's Robbie Hoffman. Steve: He's a comedian, right? Sammi: Yes. Sammi: Comedians. Sammi: You should know, apparently. Sammi: And yeah, this was announced on August 2, but I didn't see it because I don't pay attention to this stuff. Sammi: But that's super great. Sammi: And yeah, I'm so happy. Sammi: So one of the things that this Vulture article talks about is, uh, they wanted to see, like, a Robbie cam the whole time, mic her up and then let's the whole the whole gimmick of, like, who's the bachelor and who's going to date him. Sammi: And also, maybe Rachel likes Braden. Sammi: I was like, I can't handle all this stuff right now, okay? Sammi: I'm tired, and I want to know what's in that truth box, and I want to talk more about that poop baby. Sammi: Those are the things I want to talk about. Steve: Yeah. Steve: Very interested in a poop baby. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: And then we find out. Sammi: September 20. Sammi: Eigth. Sammi: We're going to be playing double duty, so I don't know what we're going to do. Sammi: We'll have to see if we want to do extra long episodes or two separate Bachelor in paradise and Golden Bachelor episodes. Steve: We're going to figure it out. Sammi: We'll have to figure it out. Sammi: Stay tuned. Sammi: I'm thinking we'll do each one because some people might be interested in one and not the other. Sammi: Otherwise, we'll do, like, a little time stampy in the description. Sammi: So stay tuned for that, obviously. Sammi: Let's see. Sammi: Okay, so we have the last date with Don, and he's so sweet, and it was so cute, and he was like, I'm going to win over your mom. Sammi: Just don't even worry about it. Sammi: And it's like, he's a great guy. Sammi: He can definitely win over moms, so I totally believe that. Sammi: And his gift was very cute. Sammi: He was like, I made a treasure hunt, so how about that? Sammi: And I was like, that's pretty cute. Sammi: And he was like, here's my card, my resident alien card, like the s'mores and little memories of events that they did on their dates. Sammi: And then at the end, it was a locket with their baby faces. Sammi: And he's like, you are my treasure. Sammi: And that was very then. Sammi: But the thing that's weird is we see her. Sammi: Yeah, they really freaking tricked me because she's, like, bringing up Joey on this date, and he says, I love you, and she doesn't say it back. Sammi: And I was like, okay. Sammi: Then we get the Neil Lane scene, which wasn't like, that excessive this time. Sammi: Sometimes it's like, really long Neil Lane stuff. Steve: It's always weird to me because I feel like sometimes we get a lot of Neil Lane the man, and not just Neil Lane, the know, and other times you don't see Neil at. Steve: And this this was a Neil appearance season. Sammi: Yeah, it was a Neil appearance, but it was not as major. Sammi: I mean, usually I would say with The Bachelor, Neil is around more, but he was in the audience. Steve: It's just so funny to me because I'm sure in the jewelry world, he's a big deal, but if you're like, who's Neil Lane? Steve: I'm like, oh, that's the guy who gives the rings on The Bachelor. Sammi: I actually think that is the biggest deal. Sammi: Well, I think but I don't know. Sammi: Let's see if we can figure this out. Sammi: Hold on. Sammi: I feel like I looked this up before, and it was kind of like I thought that that was kind of the biggest thing. Sammi: I thought his name recognition did get bigger because of The Bachelor, and that propelled some of his career. Sammi: Oh, here we go. Sammi: Here we go. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: Reddit is all over. Steve: Always. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: But yeah, okay. Sammi: Apparently oh, interesting. Sammi: He turned them down for a while, and he doesn't watch The Bachelor, which I think we found out recently that he didn't watch The Bachelor, which I think is very funny. Sammi: So it's like his only frame of reference is getting flown in for these moments and these live appearances, and that's it. Sammi: And he doesn't watch the show. Sammi: That's kind of awesome. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: So someone said, okay, yeah, I think it's kind of like a Vera Wang type of thing at this point, you. Steve: Know what I mean? Sammi: Where it's like there is a prestige brand and then you can also go to Kohl's. Steve: Exactly. Sammi: You know what I mean? Sammi: I think it was kind of like and yeah, someone said, I went into Kate and his rings are ugly. Sammi: Lol. Sammi: I'm sorry. Sammi: Yeah, it's like, if you're going to get Neil Lane from K, I would assume that that's not the same as the other stuff he yeah, yeah. Steve: I would imagine he's got his higher tier stuff. Steve: I like the Vera Wang comparison. Sammi: That's the way I kind of always thought about Neil Lane. Sammi: And from these comments on Reddit, that's the impression I'm getting. Sammi: As I say about Kay, every kiss begins at the mall. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: And apparently oh, gosh, I didn't even realize that. Sammi: So this was like 2009. Sammi: Neil Lane feels so omnipresent that I did not realize it's only been Neil Lane for like, 14 years. Steve: Wow. Sammi: Yeah. Steve: Before that he was day one guy. Sammi: I know. Sammi: Before that it was Harry Winston. Sammi: Sorry. Sammi: There's a comment on Reddit that says, in the industry, neil Lane is considered to be a little goblin character. Sammi: And someone said, how so? Sammi: And then there's like some deleted stuff, so I don't know about that. Sammi: Anyway, yeah, someone said, okay, yeah. Sammi: Neil Lane for Celebs is high end. Sammi: Neil Lane at K is mediocre. Sammi: Yeah, same as Verawing. Sammi: I would yeah. Sammi: Very interesting. Sammi: He used to design customs for A list celebrities like Barbara Streisand, Elizabeth Taylor, and Angelina Jolie. Sammi: Interesting. Sammi: He's like mid tier, they say. Steve: Oh, man. Steve: You hear that? Steve: Neil Lane. Steve: You're just mid, baby. Sammi: You're mid. Sammi: You're mid, Neil. Sammi: Well, he's never going to listen to this. Sammi: He doesn't watch the show. Sammi: He's not going to listen to a random sorry, Neil, but yeah. Sammi: So very interesting. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: So we had a Neil Lane scene, and then Charity comes out in her dress and I started tearing up. Sammi: So again, I was tired, but I don't know, this finale really did a number on me. Sammi: And then she started to cry or almost cried. Sammi: And I was like, don't cry. Sammi: Your makeup's so pretty. Sammi: And then as soon as Joey gets out of the car, my stomach dropped and so do the audiences. Sammi: And I was like, you tricked me. Sammi: You tricked me, you tricked me. Sammi: And I was like, well, he's going to be a great bachelor. Sammi: And I cried so much during this whole interaction. Sammi: It was awful. Sammi: I was like, not okay. Steve: So emotion. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: The dogs came over. Sammi: They were like, do you need some support? Sammi: And I was like, I am not. Sammi: And like, Tuck was sleeping, obviously. Sammi: Well, this was like yeah, because this was in the morning by the time I watched this. Sammi: But he was like, in the other room with the dogs, and I'm like, crying. Sammi: And they come over and they're like, what do you need, mom? Sammi: And I was like, I am just not okay. Sammi: But what was really sweet was she did not cut him off, which was nice because I feel like a lot of the times the bacheloretes cut the men off. Sammi: Don't propose yet, but he kind of waited for a second anyway, like, should I keep going? Sammi: And then she did a little I thought it was nice that she had a speech for him because I don't feel like they always do that or it doesn't feel prepared or whatever. Sammi: And he was just like, It's okay. Sammi: He knew it was hard, and she's trying to get all this out, and she's upset. Sammi: And he was like, It's okay. Sammi: And she's like, Well, I got to do this. Sammi: I want to do the whole thing. Sammi: I want you to hear this whole thing. Sammi: It's important to me. Sammi: And then she's like, I found love that's deeper with someone else, and I'm crying. Sammi: I think she wins for the best goodbye speech ever to yeah, I was just, like, a f** mess. Sammi: And then Joey's in the audience, and then he gives the best bachelor audition in the car, and the audience is silent, and I'm just is really this is really great. Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: That whole moment was really awesome. Sammi: And then Zach's in the right, so, like, they go through this whole thing. Sammi: Like, Joey leaves, he's in the car, whatever, and at some point they pan to Zach, and I'm like, God, both of these guys are so much better than Zach. Sammi: And so really, there wasn't a bad direction for her to go, I don't think. Sammi: It's like she's just got to decide how she feels, and she's got to make that choice, which is always nice. Steve: Too, because sometimes I'm like, no, not him, and this time you're good. Steve: Anybody's fine. Steve: Well, not Aaron. Steve: And even Aaron. Steve: There's nothing wrong with him. Sammi: With Aaron. Sammi: If she liked Aaron the most, I'd be like, that's fine. Steve: That's okay. Steve: Some people have no taste, but that's all you. Steve: You do. Steve: You it's not harmful. Sammi: That just reminded me of I don't know why. Sammi: I'm, like, thinking about classic York. Sammi: Like, even Louis Vuitton makes so Joey is going to see Charity now. Sammi: He gives his little spiel with Jessie. Sammi: It's like all kind of the normal the. Sammi: I've done a lot of thinking and healing, and I'm on the other side, and I understand, and I just love and support her, and I just want her to be happy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sammi: And this is, like one of the most amicable reuniting moments, too, that I remember on the show, where it's just like, she looks sparkly and beautiful, and he's, like, giving her the biggest hug, and it was really sweet. Sammi: And he's still kind of, you can tell, emotional about it. Sammi: He's getting all twisty faced about it. Sammi: He's like, AW, shucks OD golly g whiz whatever. Sammi: They made him very likable. Sammi: They did a really good job because I was, like, a mess, and it was good, and then it's like, okay, now it's time for Dotton. Sammi: And I was so emotional about the Joey thing. Sammi: I was just kind of like, well, I knew this was going to happen, they tricked me, now I feel indignant and this all turned out just fine. Sammi: I think what it is, is they are both very comfortable with each other and that's like what you need for a normal relationship. Sammi: You should feel very comfortable with each other. Sammi: And so I think the familiarity is good here. Sammi: And it didn't feel like this with her and Joey. Sammi: I feel like it's a little more I don't know, there was more chemistry and an explosive exciting way. Sammi: But with her and Datten, it just feels very safe and comfortable in a very good way. Sammi: That's important. Steve: Yeah, she made the right call and it's the difference between maybe a sprint and a marathon here. Steve: And it's not to say that both these men would have provided her with plenty of happiness, but I think Datten is probably the better choice for something that you see as a long term relationship. Steve: And Charity was super smart about it and she dumped Joey in the best way possible. Steve: I don't know how she does it. Steve: It exceeds even the abilities of the editing on The Bachelor and the just she's got it down. Sammi: She handled everything perfectly the whole season. Sammi: I feel like we've watched so many seasons of Bachelors and Bacheloretes kind of like step in it and yeah, not a single flub. Sammi: Perfect season. Steve: It's kind of mind boggling, too, because it can be so stressful and emotional and god, breakups are f** messy. Steve: They're so messy. Steve: And the fact that she was able to not only every single guy leading up to Joey and those are probably easier because some of those guys were you get you get down to Joey who is a man that you could probably marry and probably be pretty happy with and to just let him down like that, it was like a master class. Steve: It was incredible. Steve: Never seen anything like ten out of ten. Sammi: Charity, yeah, she's extremely emotionally mature. Sammi: This is obvious, we know this. Sammi: And yeah, she did awesome. Sammi: Chef's kiss. Sammi: What a great season. Sammi: Very happy about it. Sammi: I thought it was really cute at the end that they showed that she was standing on a box. Sammi: I thought that was adorable. Sammi: I love little behind the scenes things like that. Sammi: And she's like, yeah, love just makes you so happy. Sammi: You get taller and then they just show the box. Sammi: I was like, that's adorable. Sammi: They're just very cute together. Sammi: And yeah, he can keep her safe from lizards or whatever. Sammi: It's good. Sammi: And his family is like, that's like winning the Jackpot. Sammi: They're a really cool family. Sammi: That's one of the best families I've ever seen be on the show. Sammi: And his mom being someone who's really hard to win over and going, yeah, you're my family now. Sammi: And Grandma being like, these two are joined at the soul, or whatever the h*** she said. Sammi: I'm like, yeah, I mean, I just feel like you can't get better than that. Sammi: As long as you like the family and you like him, you're in. Sammi: That's very easy. Sammi: Then some life coach started talking, and I was like, oh, god, I need food. Sammi: I need breakfast, because it was late in the day, and I just did not want to hear this. Sammi: Life coach chuck. Sammi: And then this was like one of the people. Sammi: I was like, are you going to date the bears? Sammi: And then mom we get to see charity's mom, and they're like, okay, how are you feeling? Sammi: She's like, I'm happy now. Sammi: Yeah, he's good. Sammi: I like him. Sammi: He's pretty good. Sammi: Or was. Sammi: She wasn't like, oh, my god, he's the like, yeah, I really like him. Sammi: I think at some point and again, I was tired. Sammi: Didn't we see Danton's family and his mom in the audience getting emotional over everything? Steve: I thought this audience was they were put through the wringer. Steve: I'm pretty sure they were there, too, but yeah, everyone was super emotion, including datten's people. Sammi: I was so emotional, I just stopped paying attention. Sammi: Yeah, it was so then and then she shows off her find that, personally, this is just personal. Sammi: I find the rings kind of boring. Sammi: They're just like one big rock. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: But I'm glad she likes it. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: This was interesting. Sammi: Do you think they're going to shoot the golden bachelor different the whole time? Sammi: Do you think the style of shooting is going to be different? Sammi: Because did you notice how soft they made it and the camera work was all different. Sammi: Is it just for the promo, you think, or what do you think? Steve: I think that is just for the promo, but it definitely has a softer, different look to it. Steve: It's almost like soap opera esque in its presentation, which I guess is appropriate. Steve: It is somewhat reminiscent of very early seasons of the bachelor. Steve: So if you go back to the first three seasons yeah. Sammi: Where it's like a little more like romanticy. Steve: Yeah. Steve: And I don't know if that is intentional or if I'm just like my brain has been permanently poisoned by watching the show for so many years. Steve: But I think based on the previews alone, it looks like it's going to have a slightly different aesthetic, and I am perfectly fine and open with that. Steve: Because if there's one thing that you can criticize about the Bachelor and honestly don't make it one thing, make it a million things, because there's plenty. Steve: But if there's one thing you can consistently criticize, is that they recycle the same ideas and visual cues and everything over and over and over and over again, so anything that can push them out of their comfort zone. Steve: And I do think that old people are going to help with this because, oh, my god, the kinds of problems and emotional issues and things that they're going to have to deal with are going to be totally different from the normal crap that comes up on the bachelor to bachelorette. Steve: And when it's not different, when it's like, oh, and so and so has an 80 year old husband back home, that's going to be even funnier and crazier, so bring it on. Steve: I'm here for it, whatever it is. Sammi: So and so has an 80 year old husband back home. Sammi: I like that idea. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: I'm kind of wondering if it's going to be messy in any way or if it is just going to be kind of like sweet and sentimental the whole time. Steve: I hope not. Sammi: I know you hope not, but I'm just kind of like not totally sure anymore. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: I'm interested to see what happens. Sammi: We don't have to wait super long. Sammi: We've got about a month and you'll hear from us at least one time in between then. Sammi: Do you think they're going to let the dog stay with him? Sammi: Because that dog is obsessed. Sammi: That was the cutest dog. Sammi: Oh, my god, don't tell me. Steve: In my heart, yes, but in reality, I think they're probably going to have. Sammi: To say no because who had their dog? Sammi: One of the bachelorettes, right. Sammi: Had their dog with them or bachelors. Steve: It just seems like a nightmare, like all the traveling they do and it's just stressful for the dog, too. Sammi: I think it was just domestic. Sammi: Do you remember wait, hold on. Sammi: Okay, let's see. Sammi: Golly, I don't remember. Sammi: There was one now. Sammi: I just found the rambo thing, but yeah, there was one where it was like, oh, my dog came with me. Sammi: Do you remember talking about anyway, whatever. Steve: Well, rachel lindsay's dog cooper appeared alongside her on the Bachelorete season 13. Sammi: I just tried to that's what it was. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: God, I mean, so much happened on rachel's season. Sammi: I forgot it was yeah. Sammi: Oh, my gosh. Steve: I had tried to forget rambo dog guy, but unfortunately rambo dog guy has now been brought back into my memory bank. Steve: So thank you, Sammi. Sammi: Yeah, I think it was just local, right? Sammi: It was just like when they were in the states, the dog was there, so I was just like, maybe that would be a thing that would happen again. Sammi: Because that was very cute and I really liked that. Sammi: That's all. Sammi: And then, okay, so there's no set date. Sammi: So we see charity and Dotton and of mean, I don't think there's ever at least I don't remember in the history of the show them being like, oh, and it's probably, are joe and serena married yet? Sammi: Because otherwise they'll be the ones I. Steve: Don'T know if they're married, but they did a commercial for concealer or something together. Sammi: They've been doing that a lot. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: Mark my words, they're going to be the couple in paradise that gets married. Steve: It seems. Steve: So their star is rising. Steve: Grocery store joe is the international commercial superstar. Steve: Honestly, grocery store joe, you're acting in these commercials. Steve: You got speaking lines. Steve: Are you SAG brother? Steve: Like, should you be on the picket line? Steve: Maybe, I don't know. Sammi: Oh, interesting. Sammi: Didn't think about that. Sammi: Anyway, so yeah, I think they're going to get married in paradise. Sammi: That's my I don't I can't remember any time where they're like, oh, yeah, we have a set know. Sammi: But they're like, we're enjoying the season of our she's going they're going to Greece. Sammi: She's always wanted to go to Greece. Sammi: And so she's going to get to go to Greece, which is sweet. Sammi: And then she's also going to be on Dancing with the Stars, which is like not shocking but cool. Sammi: And then Joey gets announced as the new bachelor and we kind of knew that. Sammi: And the first woman that we meet who lives on Oahu or well, she moved to La. Sammi: But she's from Oahu. Sammi: She's joining Joey. Sammi: And then yeah, so they're excited. Sammi: But then she gets an envelope. Sammi: It's not a date card, but we don't know what it is until night one. Sammi: And that's as much surprise as they can know because Jesse is like, well, you've never seen anything like this. Sammi: And I'm like, this is like a pretty normal season. Sammi: But you were like, we're going to give you a trip so we can say it was a surprise. Sammi: We're not going to tell you about Dancing with the Stars until here. Sammi: So it's a surprise. Sammi: Charity has got to be getting tired of surprises at this point because they also surprise her with a Bachelorete. Steve: Remember that's the theme for her series. Sammi: She's like, okay, here it goes. Steve: Boys under pressure. Steve: The charity story. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: I mean, for real. Sammi: She's like always handles surprises well but I don't know if she actually likes them. Sammi: We'll see. Sammi: Okay, let's see. Sammi: I'm looking through to see if there's anything else I missed. Sammi: That was kind of the big stuff. Sammi: I don't feel like there was just not a lot to say. Sammi: Somehow we filled 45 minutes, but there wasn't a lot to say about this episode except I cried a lot and it was good. Sammi: And I'm excited for the Golden Bachelor. Sammi: I'm excited for Bachelor in paradise and I'm excited for Joey being the bachelor. Sammi: And that's fun because when's the last time I got excited about a bachelor? Sammi: I don't know. Sammi: It's been a really long time. Steve: Yeah, it's been a while. Steve: But yeah. Steve: Kudos to production for, again, taking a foregone conclusion, making it dramatic and selling me on someone that I thought was fine but boring. Steve: So just high marks all around. Steve: Charity's great. Steve: Everything's great. Steve: Sammi stayed up too late, got super emotional. Steve: It's okay. Steve: Nothing wrong with that. Steve: There's nothing wrong with it. Sammi: I'm excited all of you. Sammi: I did it for all of you. Sammi: And then we got home last night at like 10:00 and I mentioned this off recording. Sammi: We played pinball until I don't know. Sammi: This is a problem. Sammi: We played pinball until bar closed and so, yeah, my mind's kind of fresh, but I'm just coming off vacation, so if I repeated myself a lot, you knew what you were getting into. Sammi: Okay. Sammi: You knew what this was also. Sammi: You're welcome. Sammi: I hope you got your dishes done or got to your workplace or cleaned your office or whatever it is you're doing right now. Sammi: And I'm so excited. Sammi: Yeah. Sammi: The jilly box has made it through customs. Sammi: It should be here in a day or two. Sammi: And the grand reveal is coming soon, so you'll get to enjoy that shortly. Sammi: And it'll be a nice break. Sammi: Hopefully we can get it done before school starts. Sammi: And then once I'm in the swing of things for school, we'll have the golden bachelor and bachelor in paradise to record. Steve: Love. Sammi: It's going to be great. Sammi: It's going to be great. Sammi: If you want to see my slow decline into madness, come back on or before the last week of September, and I'm sure that's what you're going to get to see. Steve: That's right. Steve: We're making q four. Steve: Every month of Q four is mental health awareness month on our podcast. Sammi: It's going to be like, why did I decide to do biostatistics and biochemistry in the same semester? Sammi: Why? Sammi: Anyway, so take care of yourselves, friends. Sammi: Take care of each other if you haven't had a chance. Sammi: I mean, we are in the last moments of summer. Sammi: I know a lot of us had a heat wave recently. Sammi: At least here it's broken. Sammi: Make sure you're getting outside. Sammi: Enjoy that weather. Sammi: Go for a nice long walk. Sammi: That's what I'm about to do when I get off of here and make jam as well. Sammi: And, yeah, just enjoy those last moments that you have before it gets cold and dark, if you're in a part of the world where that happens. Steve: Yeah. Steve: And you know what? Steve: I'm going down to the lake as soon as this call is done. Steve: I'm going to walk around. Steve: I'm going to probably eat a snack. Steve: I'm going to watch the sunset. Steve: It's going to be beautiful. Steve: You know what I'm not going to do? Steve: I'm not going to do needle drugs, because you shouldn't do needle drugs. Steve: Don't do needle drugs. Steve: You got to hit them with the triple because they going to hear from us for a little while. Sammi: We'll be back with a jilly box. Steve: And a double bachelor experience. Steve: Oh, lordy.

Hour 2 - Centre Daily Times' Jon Sauber says Penn State ended the year as one of the best teams in the country, and Steve says only one Big Ten team left isn't as bad as you think.

Steve Falconer Spacebusters, part one

Steve Falconer, Spacebusters - Part One Steve gives a clear explanation how these coming soon, Central Bank Digital Currencies, (CBDC) are really Central Bank Digital Coupons. This rollout, part of the Great Reset is a globalist agenda put forward by the Central Banks to control what one buys through social credit scores and health records. FTX, the stable coin disaster of billions lost has many moving parts and interconnected players - great analysis given by Steve. CGI, computer generated images are what ALL space "photos" are and as CGI as the original can proven to be computer images. Patrick and Steve give their views on the big picture LBGTQ agenda and where the bodies are buried We are multifaceted unlimited beings and are sexual preferences is just on of our choices . Stay out of the Matrix, for when you wrestle with pigs you get muddy and they love it. Cash, real paper cash will be the freedom during the CBDC programs Pension funds are not in good shape to withstand more financial turmoil. Steve explains the the monetary, political and freedom's of Norway, Denmark, Finland and Sweden We get into deep conversations on the firmament, the moon, the ice wall and Hollow earth. -- There is nothing in this email or on our shows or website that is intended to be medical advice, for that is illegal. We simply may give you ideas that others have used successfully You should always consult a qualified medical professional before making changes in diet, exercise and supplementation and know that anything you do with and to your body is your total responsibility and you must accept the outcome, good or bad.

The Steves discuss the 1988 cult classic horror film, Child's Play, along  with what's making them happy in pop culture today!What's Making Us Happy?Stephen- Xenoblade Chronicles 3 (Switch) (again :-) )Steve- One of Us Is Lying Season 1- PeacockMovie DiscussionNames and numbers behind the scene, including a love connection!How the movie evolved from a psychologial thriller where Andy was the prime suspect and Buddy used his pull string to strangle his victimsThe magic of bringing Chucky to life- on and off screenOur memories of 80s toys and parents that went above and beyond to get us our favorite giftsWhen would you believe the doll was alive?How the series has evolved since this originalAnd much more!Ending- Any music or audio clips were borrowed from the original source material.Support the show

Steve Pilgrim - drummer, singer & songwriter joins me on this episode of the podcast. Another huge talent from the Paul Weller band. Paul is quoted as saying on Steve: "One of the great understated modern songsmiths. I love Pilgrims voice, his lyrics, his sense of melody. I hope people get to hear his music, it's really something special” Ex-The Stands, Cast, John Power and John Head, Steve joined the Paul Weller band in 2008 for the 22 Dreams tour ( following on from drumming legends Steve White and Rick Buckler when you think about it! - something that we discuss on the podcast). Steve has been a key fixture of the band ever since. Both live behind the kit - touring the world multiple times - and on record from Wake Up The Nation through to Fat Pop. As Andy Lewis said on the podcast, "Steve is a better singer-songwriter than he is a drummer, and he's a fantastic drummer..." Our podcast begins with a text from Paul Weller that was the only inspiration Steve Pilgrim needed to finish the writing of his much-anticipated sixth album ‘Beautiful Blue'... Find out more in the show notes for this podcast with a very special Pilgrim Playlist at paulwellerfanpodcast.com/episode-109-steve-pilgrim If you enjoy this episode of the podcast - please share on your social media channels - and leave a review and if you want to support the podcast financially, you can buy me a virtual coffee at paulwellerfanpodcast.com/store

Steve Hall is an executive sales coach and Australia's leading C-level sales authority. He brings with him decades of experience in several industries and roles, from bricklaying to middle management to sales leadership to executive consulting. He learned that even the most complex sales involving millions of dollars still boil down to the basics: sales is a people business. He shares how to get in the mindset of a C-level executive, create a message that gets you a longer conversation about your solution, and find the best way to send that message as cold emails do not work with the C-level. HIGHLIGHTS Sell to the person who has the authority to approve  Focus on accounts, not leads: Sales is about creating relationships  A conversation with the C-level is going to be about strategy Get a meeting with the C-level then prepare for it QUOTES Even complex sales are about relationships Steve: "One of the biggest sales I made, the COO of an 8 billion dollar company in the states, or UK actually, wanted to meet the president of our company not to look at how the software works, but look him in the eye and say, will you support us if we get in trouble? At the end of the day, it's still about relationships. I'm not saying people will buy off you because you've got a good relationship, but they shouldn't buy off you if you haven't got a good relationship because that's a huge part of making things work." Empathy and business knowledge are important when selling to the c-level Steve: "To be able to talk intelligently, business, to a senior executive, you've got to be vaguely intelligent and know a little bit about business. And you also need to have the capability of putting yourself in the shoes of the person you're speaking to. That's one of the most important and least understood skills of the salesperson—look at things from your customer's perspective."  The two things you need to speak to the C-level Steve: "You need two things. You need a message which will make them want to talk to you, and you need a way to get it to them. And the message depends on the circumstances but it could be we want to help you reduce the risk in your automotive department, for instance, or reduce the downtime on your machine, so whatever it might be for that particular customer." Find out more about Steve in the link below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevehallsydney/ More on Andy: Connect on LinkedIn Get Andy's new book "Sell Without Selling Out" on Amazon Learn more at AndyPaul.com Sponsored by: Revenue.io | Unlock exponential growth with an AI-powered RevOps platform | Revenue.io Scratchpad | The fastest way to update Salesforce, take sales notes, and stay on top of to-dos | Scratchpad.com Blueboard | World's leading experiential rewards & recognition platform | Blueboard.com Explore the Revenue.io Podcast Universe: Sales Enablement Podcast RevOps Podcast Selling with Purpose Podcast

*6:00:    Glad I'm Not A Teen Anymore *7:00:     Rapid Fire Questions, Neighbor Nicknames *8:00:    Pushover Parent, Incohearent Ga me, Name of Your Solo Album *9:00:     Name That Makes You Cringe

Can you guess what it revolves around? Skip to 50 minutes to hear about Steve's weekend with partner, Dijana and her family. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Will Steve follow Tanya's rule? See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Podcast Hosts: Steve Nail and Kelly Scheib Sponsors: Haynsworth Sinkler Boyd Standout Quotes: "The older I get, the more I realize how little I know" - [Steve] "89% of Americans said that in 2020 they've experienced burnout" - [Steve] "I don't think that there is ever a disconnection point between either work or life" - [Kelly] "We put so much emphasis on the concept of balance, but it's really only 'balance' on the work side" - [Kelly] "Give up the fight to try to balance... and realize that they're intertwined and that's okay so long as you figure out when one needs to take priority over the other in the moment that it needs to take priority" - [Kelly] "We don't set boundaries, we're too eager to say 'Yes' to things, we don't say 'No' to enough things" - [Steve] "One of the greatest lessons of writing your eulogy alive is the fact that you have an 'Edit' button" - [Kelly] "But if you know what you're driving towards then your goals reflect what you're driving towards and life doesn't seem so out of balance because you're driving towards something" - [Kelly] "Life is a long race and you need to pace yourself" - [Steve] Key Takeaways: ❏ Work-life balance has different meanings to different people. ❏ Steve describes the impact of Covid19 on the working hours and burnout rate of Americans generally, noting that work-life balance is possible. ❏ Kelly doesn't believe work-life balance is possible, explaining that since both are so tightly intertwined, the idea that each can have a separate time allocated to it is not feasible. A key point of note is that other aspects of life don't stop when you're at work. ❏ Give up the fight to try to balance and realize that they're intertwined and that's okay so long as you figure out when one needs to take priority over the other at the moment that it needs to take priority. ❏ There are things we can do to help be a bit more balanced. One of them is 'Setting Boundaries'. ❏ Understanding that the concept of work-life balance depends on your personal priorities, it is critical that you're honest with yourself and you understand exactly where you want to go and what you want to do. ❏ Sharing a strategy where she asks her clients to write their eulogy, Kelly explains how this puts into perspective the things that really matter and offers the benefit of being able to still edit your eulogy by living your life towards what you want to be remembered for. ❏ People need to understand what is really important in their lives and focus their efforts on those priorities and nothing elsee. Episode Timeline: [01:20] Kelly's shares today is her Birthday. [03:45] Steve's perspective on work-life balance [05:45] Kelly shares her opinion on work-life balance. [15:17] The 'Eulogy' approach to the topic of work-life balance [18:03] What can you do personally regarding work-life balance? Emails: Kelly@Survivehr.com; Steve@Survivehr.com You can find us at survivehr.com, and listen to us on all major podcast carriers Sponsors:Haynsworth Sinkler Boyd https://www.hsblawfirm.com/ https://www.scemployersblog.com/

She was bummed when he kept blowing her off but then he said the date was a 5 out of 5 stars! Wait til you hear why he didn't call her back! (biggest bombshell ever!!)

She was bummed when he kept blowing her off but then he said the date was a 5 out of 5 stars! Wait til you hear why he didn't call her back! (biggest bombshell ever!!)

She was bummed when he kept blowing her off but then he said the date was a 5 out of 5 stars! Wait til you hear why he didn't call her back! (biggest bombshell ever!!)

In today's episode Production Coordinator Emma Ayau and Background Painter Steve Eat share their experiences working on episode 2, Tutorial Mode, starring High Five, Miko, Bitt and everyone's favorite show stealer, Helpie! Social Media   Emma Ayau Instagram @emmaayauart   Steve Eat Instagram @SteveEat Twitter @SteveEatArt Twitch SteveEat   Check out scripts, how the show is made and more:  Glitch Techs Resources   One of the hallways painted by Steve: One of the images from the intro, painted by Steve: All images property of Nickelodeon/Netflix. And as promised, Macaroni the wonder pup:   The Host Angela Entzminger Instagram @sketchysoul Twitter @sketchysoul Website www.sketchysoul.com  

Show notes & links available here. In this episode, I'm talking to Steve Baskin about raising strong, anti-fragile kids. Steve and his wife, Susie, are the owners and directors of Camp Champions in Marble Falls, Texas. For over 27 years, Steve has studied the camp experience and how to make it the best possible growth opportunity for kids. In his new essay, A Manifesto to Strength (published below for the first time) and in this interview, Steve shares his thoughts on what we can do as parents to raise kids who aren't so fragile. Big Ideas The summer camp experience offers kids so many benefits and opportunities for education and development. Avoid over-parenting and preparing the road for your child. Instead, prepare your child for the road by doing less for them as they get older. Kids who are allowed to experience life's ups and downs, learn to advocate for themselves and who learn from their mistakes are more equipped for adulthood. Protecting kids from discomfort is not the same thing as protecting our kids from danger. It does more harm than good in the long run. Camp is a powerful place to build internal strength. Resilience means you are worse after a challenge, whereas if we are anti-fragile, we should emerge from a challenging situation stronger. An example is a child who overcomes homesickness at summer camp and then has an easier time going away from home when it's time for college. It can be hard for parents to see their kids for the age they truly are. Instead, they see the "weighted average of all their memories." Quotes Audrey: "We have a lot in common in that we take this camp thing very seriously and are always thinking about how we can better deliver the social-emotional life skills growth that kids need at camp." Steve: "One of the things I began to see early on was over-parenting, first the helicopter parenting and then the snowplow or lawnmower parenting. One is watching your child's emotion and then trying to manage your child's experience and prepare the road for your child, instead of your child for the road, and I saw that as problematic." Steve: "We joke that we have a rule of parenting through laziness. If you think your child can do it, let them. If you suspect they might be able to do it, let them. If you think there's an off-chance, let them." Steve: "College campuses are responding to what they're getting. I think the horse is already out of the barn. The kids get there and they have had their parents get on the phone and talk to the teachers. They've had parents adjudicate their friendships. They've had their college applications coauthored.  They've been used to having someone say, 'If it's too much for you, sweetheart, your mom and dad are here, we're going to protect you. And it sends a really deleterious signal." Steve: "It's one of the saddest ironies that we, in our unbelievably, almost overwhelming love of our children and in an attempt to create some sort of advantage for them, we're baking in longterm disadvantage." Steve: "We think we need to protect our children. And the answer to that is yes, of course, from starvation and moving cars and juggling chainsaws. There are things that are legitimately dangerous. But we are not there to protect them from any discomfort or any pain or any sadness. What we need to do is not protect but prepare." Steve: "When you're handed that delicate baby on day one, you'd better be in the protect and provide business. You'll make sure they're not hurt and they're fed. But every day after that, we ought to be protecting and providing just a little bit less and preparing a little bit more." Steve: "There's a general parenting trend that equates protection from discomfort with protection from danger and it makes loving parents create fragile children." Audrey: "In general, the kids we see at our camps are less fragile than the general population. Parents who are willing to let their kids go to camp are already ahead of the game." Steve: "Parents tend to think in binary terms: I don't want a fragile child; I want a resilient child. And that misses a third, much more ambitious and exciting axis. Fragile is what happens if you drop a crystal glass on the ground. It breaks. If you drop a Solo cup, nothing happens. It's not better, it's not worse. It's the same. It's resilient. Anti-fragile is something that, when exposed to stress, challenge or difficulty, actually becomes stronger. So your immune system is anti-fragile. You get exposed to a disease and you're less likely to get it in the future." Steve: "We need to experience challenges and get through them to know that we're capable of it and just to build those psychic muscles." Steve: "I want (kids) to fail at something and then know through perseverance and try, try again that they can overcome that failure." Audrey: "(When kids forget their homework) people overestimate the importance of grades and underestimate the importance of getting the zero and realizing that the world doesn't end. And remembering it the next day." Steve: "We want our children to avoid any short term discomfort but at the cost of long term capability." Steve: "I'd rather have kids think the world is an adventure and know that everything's not going to be perfect. If you constantly send a (fearful) message, you make fragile children who are scared of the world. When it comes time for them to go into the workplace or go into college or go do something bold and exciting, they're going into a world that's scary. They're going into a world that they're not prepared for." Audrey: "Some parents have almost zero risk tolerance. They'll think about all the things that could possibly go wrong instead of all the learning and growth that could go right." Audrey: "We have a lot of fears that are unfounded. We've been inundated with scary, sad stories in the media but the chances of those happening to your child are very small." Steve: "My struggle with social media is that it has hacked our evolutionary wiring in the same way that Haagen Daaz or Pringles have hacked our wiring for fats, sugars, and salts so that we won't eat foods we were evolved to want. We want human connection. I think that Snapchat is to human connection what Pringles is to nutrition. It feels almost like food, and then you do a whole lot of it and you feel bad afterward." Audrey: "Teach them to be discerning. It's not like you send them out with no guidance...We're showing them, we're watching them do it, we're feeling comfortable with them doing it and then we're letting them do it." Steve: "If a parent were to say, 'What can I do?' my first answer is always, 'Less.'" Steve: "Always work off the assumption that they're okay. 'You've got this, I believe in you. You're strong.'" A Manifesto to Strength by Steve Baskin In recent years, we have read a great deal about grit and resilience. We have also seen studies about emotional fragility in our young people.  Even beyond the studies, I have personally seen a rise in young people (often first-time campers) who struggle with overcoming adversity and bouncing back from failure. But we know that life will have its challenges.  Our children will experience failures. They will experience loss and potentially even tragedy. I can think of no greater task as a parent or an educator than to help prepare our children to overcome these future struggles. But in order to do so, we must face an important realization. Doing so will be hard for us. As parents, we want to protect our children from dangers and hardships.  Our desire to protect them from real threats can also lead us to going too far.  In our love, we can find ourselves striving to protect them from discomfort, embarrassment, sadness, or boredom.  Their pain or discomfort becomes ours and we often do everything we can to eliminate it. But this does not serve them.  Our children need to learn how to cope with disappointment, heartache, sadness, and failure. They need to learn how to deal with an awkward social situation and social break-ups. We should not be absent: we should be there to let them know that we have experienced similar challenges and that we are available to help them. But we need to let them have these experiences themselves now.  Learning to cope with challenge is like developing resistance to diseases.  You become better at it through exposure to the challenges. Children are “anti-fragile”, which is to say that they become more capable through challenge.  [I recently wrote an article explicitly on this topic.] I share this because it deeply influences how camp benefits your child. We want camp to be full of friendships, laughter, fun, and activities.  But we also know it is a powerful place to build internal strength. I use “strength” rather than “resilience” for a reason.  “Resilience” simply means that you are no worse after a challenge. If we are indeed anti-fragile, we should emerge from a challenging situation stronger.  With that in mind, I hope some of the following happens to every camper: They are homesick and overcome it so that they will know they can thrive outside of their parents’ shadows.  This will be critical when they go to college. They have a heated dispute with a friend, are upset, and eventually, find a resolution. They try something new and fail.  And fail a few more times.  And then succeed through perseverance. They try something and fail without an eventual triumph.  We will not always win or succeed.  Children should know that they can survive those situations, too. I want counselors to be there to support our campers after these challenges, but not to prevent them from ever happening. One of the odd gifts of camp is that it is fun and joyful enough to allow these growth moments to happen and still feel like a positive experience. I once thought that the challenges (homesickness, cabin squabbles, struggles to learn a new skill) were the price you paid for the joys.  As the cliché says, “No pain, no gain.” “Into every life, some rain must fall.” But now I know that the pain IS the gain.  These challenges and struggles are building capabilities and capacities in your child that will bear fruit later in life.  When other 18 year-olds are suffering from homesickness as college Freshmen, your child will be there to comfort them. When a friend gets fired from a job or suffers from a break-up, your child will understand the disappointment and provide empathy.  And when your child has his or her own troubles, they will know they have overcome issues in the past. Here’s to strong children! Steve Sir About Steve Baskin Steve Baskin is the executive director of the boys’ side of Camp Champions. In addition, he is a partner at Camp Pinnacle and Everwood Day Camp. Steve is a lifelong camper. He first attended camp when he was 8 and he continued for 11 years. In his years as a camper and a counselor, he discovered the power of the camp experience to develop confidence, social skills, and joy. He even wrote about camp in his college applications as one of the defining experiences of his life. After graduating with honors from Davidson College, he got off the camp track for a few years during which he was an investment banker with Goldman Sachs in New York and Simmons & Company in Houston. He then went to Harvard Business School, where he decided to pursue his true passion: summer camp. He and Susie have been full-time camp owners since 1993. Steve is lucky to have the pleasure of partnering with his wife (and best friend) and raising their 4 kids. Steve has been featured in articles in the Wall Street Journal, American Way magazine, the Houston Chronicle and the Austin-American Statesman. He has written for Psychology Today on youth development, education, and parenting. Steve chaired the Tri-State Camp Conference (the largest camp conference in the world) from 2008-2010. In 2009, he received the National Service Award from the American Camp Association(ACA). In 2010, he was appointed Treasurer of the ACA and serves on its Executive Committee and on the National Board. He is currently the chair of the American Camping Foundation. In 2013, Steve was asked to speak at his 20th Harvard reunion as an expert on parenting. WATCH STEVE’S HARVARD TALK: PLAY ► About Camp Champions Camp Champions is a 2-3 week overnight camp in Marble Falls, Texas for girls and boys. It is on beautiful Lake LBJ and offers over 50 different activities. They are all about the 4 Rs: respect, responsibility, reaching out to others and taking reasonable risks. Resources Campchampions.com Julie Lythcott-Haim's Ted Talk, How to Raise Successful Kids without over-parenting Related Ep. 128: “America’s Worst Mom” Lenore Skenazy talks about Letting our Kids Grow Ep. 101: Entitlemania with Richard Watts 5 Steps to Raising a Problem Solver 5 Ways Camp Grows Grit Be a Better Parent by Doing Less Ready for Adulthood Check-List for Kids Ep. 85: Grit is Grown Outside the Comfort Zone (PEGtalk)

A marketing campaign is nothing more than orchestrated noise around your product.    Here's an example of how to keep a campaign going when everything is going well…   A campaign is about creating orchestrated noise   … that's my definition, but really that's all a campaign is.    Running Facebook ads,  that's NOT really a campaign. It can be part of a campaign, but it’s NOT a campaign on its own…   Marketing campaigns are a dying art… which means MOST people are leaving money on the table.   Think about this...   We're no longer just in the information age, we're in the attention age where the loudest, not the best, is more likely to get paid.   HOW TO TURBOCHARGE YOUR MARKETING CAMPAIGN   Recently, one of my good friends, Josh Forti, did a cool launch, and he had me come on to promo this product.    After our interview was done for the launch, he asked if he could get on my Facebook page to chit chat about the interview and do a little MORE promo around it.    I swear one of the major reasons that people don’t do very well in this game is simply because they don't know how to do the second step that Josh took…   ...which is why I thought it'd be cool to share the interview with you…   I chopped it in different places and such, but you’ll see Josh ask some very general questions…   Then kind of after each of my answers, he'd go back to, "Hey, we covered that in the playbook, click here."    That skill is a very learnable thing, and it’s one of the easiest ways to get better results in your marketing campaigns…   Because, here’s the thing…   I see people with a...   Great Product   Excellent Funnel   Good Launch   ... but then they don't follow through all the way, and it cuts their launches down.    Campaigns are broken up into a lot of parts. I plan and put all the pieces together, and then, I ask...    How am I gonna get tension?    How am I gonna leverage the followings of other people to get attention?    Once it's in the middle of a launch, how do I keep the momentum going?    Once it's done, how do I keep that pressure moving as well?    And, so I thought this interview with Josh was a great example of how to keep the pressure moving...    So, when you launch your product, or whenever you're putting your stuff out; *REMEMBER*  it's NOT just about the product or the funnel…   It's about the noise.    So you need to ask, “How am I creating that noise?”    The success of your product is just as dependent on the noise you orchestrate as the product and the offer and the sales message itself.   If no one knows about your offer, you're NOT making any money anyway.    If you can't get anyone to even go look at your sales message, your product is already dead... so why did you make it?     So I'm just giving this to you as an idea, so you can see like, "Oh, man, I should go do that."    A follow-up interview whenever you interview somebody for a product you're putting out is NOT abnormal at all.  Let’s cut over right now…   JOSH FORTI’S MASTER MOVE   Steve: On the other side of this wall here, there’s a whiteboard and I call it my "questions whiteboard."    I believe that questions invite revelation, and that's good and bad...    So…    I have to focus on answering rich people questions instead of poor people questions.    Because whatever I ask, I will likely answer.    The purpose of the board is NOT for me to answer the questions.    The purpose of the board is me to figure out which question to focus on answering.    ...because I shouldn't try and answer EVERYTHING.    It's funny you asked that;  I don't know why, but it happens in the morning….    I'm getting ready in the morning and my brain turns on, and  I'm like, "Whoa, what about this idea?”   Man, I'm not going to lie, I've run out in a towel before to write stuff down... like, “That's such a sick idea!  Oh my gosh! I should try to answer that…”   And I put it on my questions board... and I write, and write, and write…   I have a BIG list of unanswered questions that I want to pursue.    It's NOT that I'll sit down always and be like, "I have to answer this now," and just dive into my books…    But, on interviews, because it's on my mind, I'll continue to clarify the answer to that question…    I'll be like, "I think it's this."    One of my favorite things is to go back and listen to those interviews and hear myself, and be like, "...that was probably the coolest I've ever explained an answer to the question on my whiteboard.”    And so I go back a lot, and it's one of the coolest ways I figure out like, “Okay, that made sense, that didn't make sense. This was helpful, that was confusing.”    And it's only honed me in what I do more and more.   FINDING WHAT RESONATED?   Josh: It's interesting how much you can learn about certain things that you say when there are clips of the crowd, (and they get the back angle)...   ... and you watch everybody's heads go down and start writing all at once.    And you're like, "Oh my gosh, they all really liked that point."    And so it's ALWAYS interesting for me to kinda go back and listen to old interviews, speeches, or things that I've done... that got A LOT of really good engagement...   ‘Cuz I feel like you can learn so much about what people really like, what resonated and what didn't resonate.    Steve: Well, it's funny 'cuz the market literally votes, (they don't know they're doing that a lot of times), and it's NOT just with products, but even with content, (you know that)…   It's cool to see that reaction when you say something and you know it's right, you know it's helpful…   ... but you said it differently that time, and suddenly it’s the click… and you're like, "Oh, that's what you mean!"    And then you see all the heads go down, and you're like, “Okay, note to self, say it that way next time because it's more impactful than last time.”   ARE YOU ASKING POOR PERSON’S QUESTIONS?   Josh: I believe that the key to thinking different…    The key to getting, basically, anything that you want out of life is asking the right questions.   If you know how to ask good questions, you can ultimately go out and find answers, have a good perspective, and get what you want out of life.    But how did *you* learn, like...    How does one go and actually learn good questions?   How do you determine what questions you're actually gonna ask, and what's worthwhile to go study or not?   Steve:    One of the biggest filters I run things through is, does that sound like a rich person question or a broke person question?   Josh: Hmm.   Steve:    A lot of times, people try to answer broke people questions just out of habit.    For example:   I don't clip coupons. I'm not against coupon-clipping. Well, actually I am… ;-)   One of the issues is…    If I spend my time and my attention and my focus on how to save money, I will find out how to do it…    ...but I also didn't learn how to make MORE money!   I'd rather learn how to make more money and who cares how much something costs at that point?     The one thing everybody has when they start this game is a buttload of questions.  … and it makes sense why they would. Just EVERYONE has tons and tons of questions.   Josh: Right.   Steve: That's natural… but, like start writing them down. I challenge everybody to do that…    And…   Before you seek to answer the question, seek if it's worth answering at all.   Josh: Yeah. That's huge.   Steve: It will pay you in time or money.   Josh: I love that.    One of the things you said is interesting because we mention it in The Mindshift Playbook, is the habit thing…   You said, ‘Often times we just do it out of habit,’ right?   Steve: You know what's funny, I'll go teach these models, “Hey, this is a cash flow model. This is a cash flow model. This is a cash flow model…”   And what's funny is, the very first reaction people have is, “Is that gonna work for me? Am I in the right spot to do this?”    And I'm like, “Oh, my gosh, are you kidding?”     ... it ticks me off so bad. Josh: It’s like, “Does ClickFunnels work for -----?”   Steve: You know what? Of the hundred thousand monthly subscribers, you're right, you're the one it's NOT gonna work for.  It's like, “Come on! Just do it."    People set a goal, "I'm going to go do this, and I'm going to use ClickFunnels to do whatever,” and they don't allow *themselves* to break on the goal.    That's the key…   You have to break *you* on the goal instead of change the goal.    Robert Kiyosaki says that as well…    As you start moving towards any goal, you’ll have these character flaws that explode in your face.    I was probably, you could say…    Addicted to video games in high school.    I was very overweight.    I got kicked out of college.    I barely graduated high school.    I couldn't speak.    I had major anxiety issues.    I am literally the opposite of everything that I was back then because I started realizing that,    I needed to allow myself to feel some pain on the way to the goal. Pain does not mean bad, and pain does NOT mean the wrong choice. Most of the time, pain means growth.   Josh: Yeah.   FAIL FAST   Steve: When you realize, “Oh my gosh, failure is really kind of a made-up principle. It's not even a principle, it's made up...    As I start to feel that pain, I start to feel the progression of moving towards things.   I went back and counted how many times it actually took me to make one of these funnel things work, and it was actually 17 funnel tries and 17 before that…   It was actually my 34th thing that actually blew up (from age 20 until now).   Josh: That's crazy.   Steve: That's A LOT of freaking failures.    ...and most of the time, people aren't going to be able to go through that.     About 1/3 into those tries, I became cognizant that…    I was changing at a speed faster than any personal development course could ever hope to give me. Josh: Ever! And you mentioned that in the interview too. You say like,    Entrepreneurship is the best personal development course you NEVER signed up for.   I mean, like it just is, and I 100% agree with that.    ...and it's interesting what you say about pain and struggle.    I think the one thing that we both agree upon is that the struggle is there for a reason. The struggle is a good thing.    The struggle is absolutely needed to develop you into who it is that you say. So it's interesting that like, they're saying it, you're saying it. Like, it's there…   I think in today's society, we're just trained to want to avoid struggle.    Everything is convenient.    Everything is now.    Everything is easy.    Like, “Avoid this!” (Thank you, marketers, right?), but like, you know what I mean?    I feel like we're trained as a society to avoid struggle, which I think is why it's so hard for so many people.    Steve: Yeah. And, you know, I think a lot of it, (and I'm never gonna be the one that just like slams and bad mouths school and all that stuff)...   ... but you think about it, you get punished for doing something wrong in school.    But like, man…    I do stuff wrong, all the time, in business, and that's actually the thing that accelerates me.   Josh: Right   Steve: “You can't do that here, or you can't do that here.”    Or…    “What if I fail?”  *Plan on it* And then you just move forward.   Josh: Write it in.   Steve:    I find that failing ends up being an accelerant to everything else that you do   I've gone through that many failures, and because it sucked for so long, it's NOT that hard to make cash now.    I'm like, “Okay, well, I solved that problem.”   And what I've learned is that while I teach these models, and then people feel this first sense of personal development requirement that comes like…    “Oh, man, I don't actually qualify to be running my dream in the first place.”    ...as they start moving, they start to gain this self-confidence. And then, they move faster and faster and faster…   I almost want them to hit some major speed bump quickly and then see if they can pick themselves back up.    That kind of person, I love working with them.   Josh: Yeah, because people don't know how to fail. Sorry. Go ahead. DO YOU QUALIFY?   Steve: I was chatting with Russell about this a little while ago…   I was like, "Dude, when I met you and started working for you in the same room, you were totally a different person a year and a half later by the time I left."    The Russell Brunson of 3 or 4 years ago, could NOT handle what he's doing right now.    But too many times we're like, “I want my dream with the million-dollar business now.”    Man, *You don't qualify* You've gotta get some personal development going down!   Josh: What would your advice to me be, if I were to go down that route and be like,    "Yeah, I'm gonna open up a talk show where we bring on interesting guests. Maybe we talk politics. Maybe we talk about business. Maybe we talk, whatever.”    What's your advice to me when it comes to doing those interviews or creating concepts around that?   Steve: Okay, so I'll tell you one of the reasons why Sales Funnel Radio has been so successful and “The Capitalist Pig” is such a big deal to people…  It's because it actively throws rocks around mainstream ideas that others believe.    So, I was in the Army, (and y'all know that if you’re on here, right?)    I was in the Army, I enlisted and I went to become an ammunition specialist, (which I didn't know at the time meant "fancy warehouse guy." )   I was like, “Crap, I wish I would have chosen something a little different."    Anyway, a little bit through that, I was like, "I'm going to go be an officer."    So, in the middle of my officer trainer, one of the things that they do is they make you study wars, battles, lots of strategy and movements... things like that.    So you study these HUGE battles, and it's a ton of fun. I really enjoyed it.    The guy who was teaching us was ridiculously smart. He's a historian that they brought in just for officer training.   It was a whole semester of just studying wars.    What's interesting is that he taught us that wars are started over usually pretty much always out of rights...   States' right   Human rights   ... that's what wars start over.  The Civil War was NOT started because of slavery. We did NOT leave Europe because of religious oppression, but that's how we romanticize the past…   What's funny is that in the middle of a war, a lot of times, a social issue will piggyback on the war.    So slavery becomes part of the Civil War, (like right towards the last hour)...    And that's when Lincoln said, "Hey, The Emancipation Proclamation, let's go dump it in there."    The same thing with like leaving Europe, as Americans, we're gonna go in and you know what… ‘it's about religious freedom now.”    It was NOT at first. We were Britains!    And the reason I bring this up is that from a marketing standpoint, when it comes to the way I treat a message, (this is not something I normally would talk about either), but …    I look to piggyback a message on the back of a social issue.    (Not a human rights issue... because then you're seen as political)    But when it comes to really disruptive messages in the marketplace, Socialism right now is getting a lot of attention…    So one of the easiest ways for me to get a lot of attention on a show is to become the anti-something major in a social issue that's currently got momentum.    It takes a lifetime to create momentum, but I don't have to do that if I piggyback on a social issue that I'm passionate about in the opposite way.   Josh: That's super good advice.   Steve: Yeah, I would figure out what big things to talk about. I find that themed shows always do better than a general, let's just...   Josh: Let's just talk.   Steve: Yeah.    So I would find something that you find and throw rocks at it like that, and then it's very natural to find those people who are for or against to hear both sides.   You'll get as many people who listen to you and love you, as hate your guts.   Josh: Yeah, well, I think this entrepreneurship like micro-influencer game has prepared me for the hate. Holy cow, dude!   Steve: Yeah, it only gets louder.   Josh: Aww, man, I tell you what! But I've learned to tune it out.   Steve: Well, thanks for listening and thanks for jumping on here.   Josh: Absolutely, man. Thanks so much.   WHOA!    If you're just starting out you're probably studying a lot. That's good. You're probably geeking out on all the strategies, right? That's also good.   But the hardest part is figuring out what the market wants to buy and how you should sell it to them, right?    That's what I struggled with for a while until I learned the formula.    So I created a special Mastermind called an OfferMind to get you on track with the right offer, and more importantly the right sales script to get it off the ground and sell it.    Wanna come?    There are small groups on purpose, so I can answer your direct questions in person for two straight days.  You can hold your spot by going to OfferMind.com.    Again, that's OfferMind.com.  

I KNOW this is how and why my business blew up so fast. The answer isn't what you think but I was careful to continue this practice each and every week for the last 3 years…   Today, I'm gonna teach you the most legitimate path I know to become an expert.   There’s a question that’s starting to come up more frequently when I jump on interviews with people, and that question is: “Steve, how do I become an expert?”   I believe that if you seek to become an expert, that can sometimes lead to some weird scenarios.   Someone taught me once:   If you want status, then don't seek it. If you want credit, don't seek it.   And that's kinda the formula I follow, I’ll explain more later...   However, there is a path that you can follow that’ll shortcut your journey to expert... if you have the right intention. BECOME AN EXPERT     I really don't read as many books as I think people think that I do, but there’s something very specific that I do, pretty much every week, which keeps me sharp... and keeps me on my game.   In my mind, it’s also the most legitimate path to becoming an expert in whatever you're doing.   I'm NOT saying you have to become an expert. You don't! But if you want to, this is how you can fast-track, establish credibility and gain expert status without having to learn, read, study, and deep-dive 24/7.   ...And it’s why my stuff has blown up so much in the last two years! COACH STEVE   I coach a ton! You probably have no idea how much.   Every Friday, I wake up and do two hours of open mic Q&A with the Two Comma Club Coaching group. Specifically, I'm coaching them on their offers and their sales messages.   At 11:00 am, I immediately jump on the One Funnel Away Challenge Where I do almost another hour of coaching.   Two Comma Club Coaching is usually for slightly more advanced people whereas the One Funnel away is targeted at newbies. After that, at 12 pm, I go live with my MLM group (Secret MLM Hacks) where I typically coach a newer person to funnels. Which is fun.     At 1:00 pm, I have about an hours break, and at 2 pm, I go live again to my OfferLab group, and then, sometimes, I'll go back to my FB page and so another open mic   Every single Friday is at least five hours of coaching almost non-stop.   I’ve spent a lot of time coaching people!   It’s one of the ways that I got so good, so fast. Sometimes, when I say that, I think people are like, “Oh, that's cute!”  But, NO!   I spend as much time as possible with my customers.   GET a coach and BE a coach is how I've advanced so fast! I know that's the reason.   YOUR PATH TO SUCCESS   So if you're like, “Hey, how do I get better at my craft?” The answer is, you need to spend MORE time teaching your thing. I don't care if you’re in info products, B2B, or retail...   Drop every book and just coach people...  and you’ll be guided to what it is that you need to get done.   When I first started the Two Comma Club Coaching, I did live open mic Q&A for four hours every single Friday for a year and a half. I was the only coach, with 675 students   Do you know how good you get when you coach that often... and when you're answering questions throughout the week too?   If you want to get good real fast stop burying your head in a book and just answer people’s questions. Just add value.   I don't read that many books... but that's NOT a badge of honor.   I read books and I listen to podcasts with the intent to hunt answers. But when I want to get better and more fine-tuned on my craft, I coach!   That's the BIG Secret... There’s NO secret!   HOW TO ESTABLISH CREDIBILITY   l have people come and ask me, “What are the top books you’ve read?” I’m like, “I could tell you that... but at what cost?”   If you're reading with the intention to distract yourself from actually spending time with your customers, it's gonna be an issue.   It's gonna be a major, major issue.   When I feel that I'm starting to lose my edge,  the thing I'll run to is coaching. I'll spend MORE time on ground-level with people who have questions.   ....And because of that, Russell ‘the man’ has told me many times, “Stephen, you have spent more time with the customer at the ground floor than anyone else.”   Guys, that's how I've gotten the edge. That's how I've gotten where I am! I know that's exactly the reason why!   So, if you...   Want to get better?   Want to go faster?   Want to add more value?   Want to get known?   *ANSWER QUESTIONS* That's it!   JUST DO IT   Set a time every single week to go live in front of your group. Say, “Hey, I'm here because Steve Larsen told me I should answer more of your questions. What are your questions?”     ...Just have people ask their questions.   Do you know how easy it is for me to figure out what to sell when I answer a lot of questions? The image comes clear really fast. It's actually faster, and in my mind, more effective than an Ask campaign.   I start to see that twenty people are asking something similar... “Huh! What if I made a product about that?”   You know what I'm saying?   It’s waaay easier, MORE secure, and it helps like crazy… and it makes YOU better.   If you don't know the answer, just say, “I don't know the answer.” And go figure it out!  If you think you might have an idea of what the answer might be... just be honest.   CHARACTERISTIC OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP   One of the sessions I did on the Two Comma Club Cruise was all about  how the red ocean builds the blue, and how your red ocean helps decide what you build in your blue ocean! It’s fascinating.   As I was talking a lot of questions started popping up...   Over the last three years, I've spent literally hundreds of hours coaching … (It's probably near the thousand-hour level now).   The core of my business is content and coaching.   One of the things that I’ve got good at seeing is, “Does this person actually have a question about this... or are they asking me a question because they want me to make decisions for them?”   Identifying that split is what’s made my coaching so effective in the last six months.   I have to help that person's brain to understand the issue in the exact same way as if I'm selling a product to somebody...   When you sell a product there’s a series of beliefs and belief gates they have to walk through... and they're sequential.   THE VEHICLE: Once they understand, “Oh, my gosh, there's a possibility this vehicle could work.”   INTERNAL BELIEFS: I’m able to pull this off.”   EXTERNAL BELIEFS: I have the resources (external) to get where this vehicle is promising I should go.”   As I watch the questions that people ask, I'm asking myself these questions:   Does the question represent a hang-up?   Is that person trying to get me to answer something for them that they should have the power to answer on their own?   Is it a legitimate question?   ARE YOU SCARED?Most of the time, I find that people have enough knowledge in their noggin' to be able to go answer the question on their own.   They know enough to answer the question... or at least take the next step.   So, is the question   Seeking a Distraction - so they don't have to take action?   Legitimate?   If I can tell an individual is seeking distraction for the sake of NOT having to take action, I know that I need to work them through vehicle, internal, and external beliefs in themselves before moving forward!   If I can tell they're asking the question because they want:   Distraction,   The semblance of motion.   To feel that they’re making progress in something.   To just ask the next thing... and the next thing. I know that there's a little bit of a dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins hit with me answering their questions.   This is BIG to understand.   ...Because, once you understand you’re ask questions for the sake of feeling momentum, then you can also know that the truth is:   You know what you want to do.   You know what you’re supposed to do.   You know enough to take action     ... BUT you’re scared, and you don't want to move forward.   To avoid this fear, you distract yourself with further education that you really don't need right now… “Stephen, I have a few questions!”   You see what I'm saying?   It’s a HUGE deal.   ARE YOU SEEKING DISTRACTION?   So when someone asks me,  “Stephen, how do you send an email?” I'm like, “Do you really have a question on how to send an email… or could you figure that out on your own... and you're just trying to distract yourself?”   YOU NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY AND SHOW UP FOR YOURSELF!   THIS PISSES ME OFF!   Part of my content strategy is to do interviews every Tuesday morning. I don't care if your a newbie and I'm your first episode... or if you’re experienced, and I'm the next up…      I set up InterviewSteve.com because I get interview requests a lot. If you want to have me on your show, you can jump on and set a time in my calendar.   But, if you set it up, show up... because I'm going to. But will you?   I’ve been stood up two times in a row recently because people said, “I'm NOT ready yet.”  That drives me up the freaking wall! I can't even tell you.   I’m a Time Nazi.   It's one of the reasons why I am where I am. I'm NOT saying I don't take breaks, but I'm a freakin’ Time Nazi, man!   When someone messages me the night before... or five minutes before the appointment... (or they just don't show up)...  And they're like, “Stephen, I'm not ready yet!” I wanna shout, “Get ready, why'd you sign up! What are you doing!”   Coulton's like, “Yeah, man, it’s been shown that it takes  someone 20 minutes to switch tasks efficiently!”   It drives me nuts!  So I did this...   So if you want me to be on your show I'm happy to do it... BUT Show Up!   I'm all jazzed up. I got everything set up. I got my little Diva light, I'm ready to rock! There's a mental prep that goes on…   So, here's how you get ready:   You take Expert Secrets, and you open up to Page 114.   It's called the Epiphany Bridge Script. There are your questions! That's all it takes! Ready! Okay, there we go! You know.   Oh, man, I can't tell you how much it pisses me off when I get stood up!   I get it because it's booked out quite a way in advance. So people signup just out of the fear and the scarcity of, “I'm never gonna be able to interview Steven.”   ...And then they DON’T show up. “Man, I am so much less likely to get on an interview with you in the future if you do that to me.” I’m a pretty chill dude. I'm aggressive, but I'm chill; it's a cool combo. “ BUT, set me off... my eyes gonna twitch. I'm gonna go nuts!   JUST GOOGLE IT!   I’m always looking for the split between legitimate questions  and distraction questions:   If someone asks me EVER again, “Stephen, how do I add funnel?”   Click add funnel, baby, it's right there! Add funnel, you just click it! You know what I mean? You have got to learn how to answer questions on our own! That's the name of the game, my friends.   Welcome to Entrepreneurship! You’re gonna have questions all the time…   Yeah, duh, we all do!   How many times do I wake up and NOT know what I'm supposed to be doing that day? It happens more frequently to entrepreneurs than most people probably know.   Anyway, back to my no-shows…   Instead of totally wasting my time I hopped in my FB Group and did an open mic Q&A to answer some legitimate questions   SOME LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS Sonia asked: How to tell the difference between a distraction-based question versus a real question?   Steve: Usually, by the follow-up questions... they're trying to find a way to logically release themselves from having to do what the answer was.   Meaning, if someone's like, “Stephen, how do I add a funnel?” I'm like, “Well, what you're gonna do is click add funnel.”  If they say, “Okay, I get that, but what if it's a Tuesday, and I don't have any time?”   I'm like, “First of all, that's NOT for me to solve. Pony up, and make some time in your life.”     Number two: They’re trying to figure out how to logically release yourself from the pressure of taking action. They want release. ...And so, if somebody starts asking me questions where I can see they're trying to release themselves from the positive pressure of taking action, that's when I'm gonna call  them out:   “Something's up? Why are you not taking my answer?”   Why are you backpedaling? Why are you trying to get me to say, “Oh, you know what, in your scenario, you're right, you don't click add funnel?”   They want me to give them permission to not take action, and I will NOT do that.   It's part of what's made me a very forward coach, and sometimes, people don't like that... whatever! I don't care. I'm about getting people results!   FB COMMENT: Hey, Stephen, you keep me motivated and moving forward.   STEVE: Awesome, that's great. Just make sure you turn it into discipline, motivation is nothing.   FB COMMENT: What do you do when you don't know what to do next? That is a legitimate question. Does that even happen to you? You always look like you have everything completely figured out.   STEVE: One of my little tactics is to stay booked up as much as I can. I know that a percentage of the activities I'm doing right now may NOT be what I'm wanting to do 20 years from now.   I set my goals, and then I map out as best I can, the things that I think are gonna take me there. And then, I act! I just run…   I had 17 businesses that were failures. Now, number 18 would NOT have been a success unless I had done those other 17 first.   On the flip-side, thank goodness those 17 tries did not work!   .Otherwise, I'd be doing those businesses. You see what I'm saying? All of those things prepared me for the thing that was coming with number 18. BAM!   So, there are two things going on in my head.   I just have to book myself and just run, and do stuff. Just take action! Big, Massive Action.   In the last six months have I gotten good at,  “Okay, only these activities will take me to where I want to go.” However,  I still know that there are things I'm doing that I shouldn't be... or that things that don't take me where I'm trying to go. So I have a few options:   Stress the freak out over every single action I take. Oh, my gosh, that gets so stressful.   Just do stuff.   So sometimes, especially when I was just starting out, (not so much anymore)….but a year ago, there were many times I woke up and was like, “I have no idea what to do next?”     ...And that can be stressful.   RED DOT, GREEN DOT   So I think to myself, “What’s the next move I can make that makes money?”   Just that one question.   What is the next path to cash and how do I get there? Then I list out all those things.   And then I'll list out all of the things that I think I need to do to make money, and I put a big green dot next to the things that are massive revenue generating, but mentally taxing (like building a funnel, writing a sales script).   Then I'll put a small green dot next to the things that are revenue generating, but not as revenue generating in the moment, or are mentally taxing (like creating a relationship). It can make money, but not at the moment.   Next, I put a big red dot next to the things that are not revenue generating. Then I erase all of the red dot tasks.   I do the big green dots during the time of the day when my brain is most fresh... which for me, is usually 7:00 a.m. to about 1:00 p.m.   Even if I stay up late, I have a hard time sleeping past seven. My brain just wakes up... so I'm gonna do the big green dots during that time of the day.   I focus on the small green dots during the rest of the day...   And I will NEVER do a red dot.   A business that’s NOT revenue focused dies.   As the entrepreneur, I'm the only one who cares about my business in the way that I do. That's just the way it is. There's nothing wrong with that, that's just the way it is. It's your baby, don't expect it to be someone else's baby.   I'm the only one responsible, the buck stops with me on making a buck.   The buck stops with me on moving forward. The buck stops with me on going and getting the new client. I can go get closers. I can go get phone people. I can go get funnel builders. But, it's ultimately down to me if something does or does not happen in my business.   So I answer the questions:   How do I serve?   How does it make money?   Once I figure that out and I do red dot/green dot, and that helps like crazy.   Hey, just real quick:   A few months ago Russell asked me to write a chapter for a secret project he was doing. I had to write a chapter for a book, this was the letter I got from him.   He said:   "Hey Stephen, let me ask you a quick question...   You suddenly lose all your money, along with your name and your reputation, and only have your marketing know-how left.     You have bills piled high and people harassing you for money over the phone.   You have a guaranteed roof over your head, a phone line, an internet connection, and a ClickFunnels account for only one month.   You no longer have your big guru name, your following, your JV partners. Other than your vast marketing experience, you're an unknown newbie...   What would you do from day #1 to day #30 to save yourself?   Russell Brunson   Hey, if you want to see my answer and a bunch of other marketers who also answered that in this amazing book and summit, just go to 30days.com/stephen.   You can see the entire summit, you can see the book, you can see what we wrote in there and each of our detailed plans. Just go to 30days.com/stephen.

Mormons & the FBI - I've often heard that the FBI likes to hire Mormons.  Is that true? Steve Mayfied talks about being interviewed to work at the FBI. https://youtu.be/MRHE8C05Qlo Steve:  But he asked me, he says, "Why I see you served a Mormon mission." And he talked about Mormon agents he knew. My interview was 20 minutes. Five minutes was about my work and what I thought of the FBI. The other 15 was about Mormonism, my mission, and things like that. So that started up. Well, I got to know a lot of the Mormon agents there. In fact, two of the agents were in my LDS ward in Walnut Creek, California. But, I was told when they identify, "He's a member of the tribe." "What do you mean a member of the tribe?" "He's LDS." That's how we would identify ourselves. We will also discuss Mormons killed in the line of duty at the FBI, as well as the only Mormon FBI agent to be caught spying for the Russians and talk about a religious discrimination case where Mormonism was a central issue. Steve:  One of the agents they brought up from L.A. was a guy named Richard W. Miller. [He was a] very interesting character because 10 years later he was first FBI agent arrested for espionage as a Mormon—as a Russian spy. GT: As a Mormon, Russian spy. Check out our conversation, as well as our other conversation with Steve! Steve Mayfield talks about good Mormon FBI agents, a Mormon FBI agent caught for spying, and a religious discrimination case involving Mormons & the FBI! 191: Steve Mayfield: Crime Photographer (Mayfield) 190: Mormon Connection in Patty Hearst Kidnapping (Mayfield)

Summer’s in full swing and it’s time to hit the open road. That’s right, it’s time for an Off Piste road trip! They say that it’s not about the destination, it’s about the journey. But really, arguably both are important. So where would the Off Piste crew travel to and through on a fictional road trip? Neil goes monster hunting across the States, Tull traverses the Bifrost Bridge and Luck goes far, far away for some sightseeing. Meanwhile, Randall Jnr. starts to feel guilty in the wake of Shigeru’s torture and Kazuhiro, Lisa and Emiko receive a horrifying parcel with a cryptic note. FOLLOW OFF-PISTE: FACEBOOK: www.facebook.com/offpistepodcast/ TWITTER: twitter.com/offpistepodcast YOUTUBE: http://bit.ly/2cxPrlZ EMAIL US: offpistepodcast@gmail.com

Anil and Rob join Jamie and the rest of the 501st Legion Outer Rim Garrison (BC) on the streets of Vancouver for a Canada Day Parade. We chat with numerous members of the ORG (Terry Chui - Co host of Outer Rim Rookie and founder of Panda Props as well as Steve One-5 - Knight of the Commonwealth and Commanding Officer of the Outer Rim Garrison) and discuss some of the fun aspects of events like these. Find Anil's (SpaceHindu) pic on our Facebook site or our homepage

LIVE FROM THE CAR HOLE: We get together with 501st Legion members from the Outer Rim Garrison of BC St3ve and Commanding Officer Steve One-5 (Knight of the Commonwealth) and chat the roles of a handler, the responsibility of a Commanding Officer and the fun of being in the 501st Legion.

Jamie and Rob are joined by Knight of the Commonwealth and Commanding Officer of the Outer Rim Garrison of the 501st - Steve One-5. We look at the most recent episode of Star Wars Rebels: "Twin Suns". The voice acting, the strong nostalgic connections, and the final, yet controversial, final battle. Also on the show: "What Excites You?" - "Legion" - Our recent trip to Victoria, BC for a 501st troop on behalf of the Mustard Seed Foundation

Proud member of the Star Wars Commonwealth Network. Rob and Anil are joined once again by Jamie "Pale Rider" Milman of the Outer Rim Garrison (BC, Canada) of the 501st Legion to talk about "Fanboys". We discuss some of our favorite moments, ask if it holds up and reminisce about the moments that led up to the release of "The Phantom Menace" back in 1999. Also on the show- "What Excites Us?": - Bill Burr's "F is for Family" - Youtube's "The Great War" channel - Listener question from Steve "One-5" Lewis Don't forget to check out our friends of the Star Wars Commonwealth Network: Talk Star Wars, Tumbling Saber, Rogue Squadron Podcast and Skyhoppers Podcast.

STEVE: Welcome, everyone. Today I have a very special guest. I'm very excited. I actually have only met her only two weeks ago. It was pretty cool actually. I felt an immediate connection. Anyway, this is Jennifer Goodwin. How you doing? JEN: Good. How are you? STEVE: Fantastic. I'm doing really, really well. I was scrolling through Facebook, it was about two weeks ago, and ... I don't know if I've told you this yet, but I was scrolling through Facebook, and I saw an ad that you had out. It was ad for vets. I can't remember exactly what the ad was saying, but it said something like, "Hey, here is a way for vets to launch their businesses online." I immediately was like, "Whoa, this is so cool. Someone's going for this market?" I didn't know anyone who's been going for that. It's such a needed thing, being in the military myself. How did you even get into that? JEN: Absolutely. I grew up very patriotic. I didn't realize until this year that the veterans were my ideal client. How it happened was, I was always trying to help veterans that were, military guys and gals that needed help with the internet marketing and getting themselves to the next level. Most recently, I was volunteering at a local homeless veteran shelter where some guys and gals were in transition. I said ... Well, a little back story. Three years ago I was on a motorcycle, my first ride, and I was life-flighted off the highway. STEVE: Oh, my gosh. Three years ago? JEN: Three years ago. Twenty-five, 30 minutes into my first ride with a friend on Highway 95. We were set at 70 miles per hour. Road debris came out of everywhere. An 18-wheeler had blown his tire, and we couldn't avoid one of the pieces. It flattened the back tire. Needless to say, I took a nice, pricey helicopter ride to the trauma center, so I actually lost my business. I was down for a lot of time. Financially, physically, emotionally, I had to go through that trauma. I had a lot of time to think through in recovery, and I made a few decisions about my business when I got back to it, which I really just got back to it full-time this past January. I decided that I was going to partner with the right people and never sit on my ideas and make sure that I was launching all the things that I had written down in a book and that were collecting dust. One of the other pieces was that I was going to give back. Even though I was sort of starting over, I knew what I was doing. I had 15 years in the business. I was relaunching, but I still wanted volunteering and giving back to be part of that. I was literally driving to a veteran center in Jacksonville, Florida and just camping out in the chow hall every Thursday and saying, "Whatever you have, just bring it to me. Just bring me your website needs. Bring me your resume needs. You got a new computer and you need to know how to run it? Just bring it to me." Even some of the staff there who weren't veterans would say, "Hey, I'm going for this other job interview," and so I just made myself available every Thursday. It didn't feel like work. Then fast forward a couple months. A friend of mine that's pretty well-known in the veteran space, he's on the History Channel and got quite a following on social media, said, "I've got four veterans that need, like, yesterday." Just working through those clients, it just didn't feel like work. It just felt so easy, because they're so loyal. They're so grateful. Usually what they're inventing, we're writing about, is something I believe in, so I re-branded my business to be all about serving veterans. STEVE: That's incredible. I love that. I've noticed that a lot of the people that I interview, they never ask permission to go do something like that. You just showed up. You just sit down and every Thursday ... How long did you do that before you went to that re-brand? JEN: I only did that for a couple months, because I actually ended up moving out of the area and haven't found a new local shelter to go help with. Let me see. I believe I started ... January, February, March. Probably about two and a half months into that I re-branded. I was also talking with some coaches. Actually, one of the coaches I was speaking with, a female coach, she was a veteran ... or she is a veteran. She said, "Jen, I got my start helping my fellow Army soldiers, starting their businesses when they got out." I said, "This is my ideal client, the more I think about it." I said, "Is it that easy?" She said, "Yeah." Literally, within 24 hours ... I couldn't even wait to re-brand everything. I went to the team and to the social media images, and I started changing it all up. The first batch was a little bit rough and amateur. I just wanted to get camouflage in there. STEVE: Yeah. Yeah. JEN: That's probably one of the ones you saw or maybe one of the newer ones. Yeah, it was pretty quick. STEVE: Yeah. That's incredible. It's interesting that that's the way it worked out. I remember when I went through basic ... I'm obviously business-minded. I really enjoy it. It's my obsession a little bit. I was going through basic training, and it's hard at certain points. One of the things that kept me going mentally and emotionally was talking about business ideas with all these other guys. I ended up having it, and all these guys that would sit around, and we would just talk about some different strategies. To this day, I still talk to some of them, and they're trying to do business stuff. It's definitely clearly an awesome market. A lot of them are go-getters. Anyways, that's super cool. That's fantastic. JEN: Yep. STEVE: One of the things I've noticed too, though, is that immediately ... You were doing the same thing with me. I was blown away with that, "Hey, do you need help with this? Do you have VAs for this? I have teams for this." You are an absolute master with VAs. How did you get that way? JEN: Thank you for saying that. I love helping people. They ask me, what's my agenda sometimes, very few, but I say, "I just like getting a break from the paying clients, who are so demanding." It's like a break to just pull away and just go help people for free with no expectations, so thank you for that. I have been an entrepreneur my whole life. My father was an entrepreneur, made some money in the door and window business. Very early on ... Well, not too early. I guess my late 20's, because I went and got an architectural degree, a drafting degree, from 26 to 28, but as soon as I came out of that, I worked for someone else for six months, and that was it. I had worked for people previously, from 16 to 28, but I knew at that moment I did not want to work for somebody else, and I couldn't work for somebody else. It just felt like my soul was in jail. STEVE: Yeah. I like that. JEN: I left the corporate world, and I was working for an engineering company, and I co-advertised. I didn't even think you could do this, but I rented an exhibitor space at the kitchen and bath show in Orlando, Florida, way back when, and shared it with one of my competitors. I was turning away 95% of my lead. I was so lucky, because what I was providing was CAD drawings and artist renderings to interior designers and kitchen designers. They didn't have anybody that was serving them. Usually people that were drafts people were going to work for architects and engineers, and so the designer industry was left hanging. I filled that void. I was turning away so much business, I knew back then that I had to learn how to scale my business and learn how to use the software that was out there that was going to help me scale my business by leveraging the tools and the people. Very early on I started to outsource to other drafters and just caught the bug of outsourcing and marking up the work and being the middle man really. I was outsourcing right away. I ran with the CAD services for about four or five years. After teaching myself everything on the internet, everything that I could at that time ... The internet was much smaller then. STEVE: Yeah. JEN: It was easier to master. I re-branded into Internet Girl Friday, and I've been doing that ever since. Again, I did lose my business for about two and a half years, but I've been back at it now, and I have virtual assistants and developers. It's great, because in my mind that's the only way to scale your business, is to have a team to support you. That's what we're doing. STEVE: Yeah, and you clearly have that. It's so fascinating, though. I wish I could pull up the text real quick that you sent me. It was a long list of stuff that you were asking me if I needed help with. I was like, "Man, she's got the hook-ups." JEN: Yeah, I would say, if it touches the web, we can do it and mean it. People come to me and say, "Well ..." I have friends that, you know how the friends and family never know what you're doing with the internet, and they don't get it. STEVE: Yeah. JEN: I have a friend that called me. I said, "Listen, I've got 20 minutes to talk. What's up?" He said, "Sounds like you're too busy and you can't take on my work." I said, "No, I have a team for that. I can do it. We can do it." I'm hiring people all the time. There's no shortage of people out there that want to work, whether they're US-based or they're offshore. There's hundreds of thousands of workers out there that ... You can go to Fiverr. You can go to so many different sites and get people to help you in your business, and I take advantage of that. STEVE: That's amazing. When I was in college, that's really when I started getting the bug for this. Well, that's when I started getting traction, I should say. I always had the bug. I went and I started hiring these different VAs. My buddy and I, we were building this Smartphone insurance business, and we went and we hired out this guy. He was just like, he wasn't very good. We paid him $500 to build this really small thing. It wasn't big at all, and we got it back and it was awful, like, "What the heck?" That's why I started using click funnels, so I could do it on my own. Then another time came up and another time came up. I was like, "Man, I'm really striking out with these VAs." I'm curious how it is that you actually go find good ones, because that's a skill in and of itself that I don't think people realize you need to have. Not all VAs obviously are built the same. What process are you taking up? What are you having them do? How are you vetting the VAs for your vets? JEN: There's a couple different ways. I hate to say this, but I don't like the big outsourcing sites. I think it's really hard to find that needle in the haystack, and you have to spend a lot of time sorting through people that are really just looking at the dollars per hour; right? They're like, "No, I can't make anything less than $8 an hour." They overbid. I just don't like those sites. I never had great luck with them ever. STEVE: That's totally the opposite than what everyone else says, so that's interesting. JEN: I've done it for 15 years. If I had an army of 100 virtual assistants, do you know how much money I'd be making? If it was that easy, I would have just hired a team of people from there, but I've spoken to people for 15 years from those big sites. What I find works for me is I enter a couple of virtual assistant groups on Facebook. Whenever I have a need for somebody, I post the job on my blog post, and I'll send a link out to the virtual assistant groups and say, "Hey, by the way, this week I'm looking to talk to people that have skills in ..." whatever skill I'm looking for that week. That's worked out well, because I only get a handful. I might get 10, 15, 20 applicants. It's totally manageable. I have a forum on the blog post. I'm not going to field emails or phone calls or be scattered. I want them to just dump their info into a form, and then I can go back and look at, and I can say, "All right. I'd love to talk to these three out of 10 on Skype," or somehow. They say, "Hire two and fire one." Try a couple people out just on a small ... I work through baby steps when it comes to hiring a virtual assistant. Let's take one tiny task, not, "Oh, I found you. Here's all my money. Here's all my tasks. Talk to you in a week." That will just go wrong every time. You want to start with, "Can you contact me on Skype," because that's a requirement. That's my office. If they tell me they don't have Skype, they're out. It's that simple. You have to work my way in my company with my tools. I'm flexible, but you have to show up in my time zone. You have to speak my language. We start at the very beginning and make sure that those pieces are there before moving on to, "Okay, here's how you get into my project management system, and here's where you find your first task." I work closely alongside them and say, "Stay with me right here on Skype. Tell me, 'Jennifer, I'm starting Task A right now, and I plan to be done in 15 minutes, and I'll ping you back when I'm done, so you can review it.'" It's really micromanaged in the first week. As you get more comfortable and as they're trained a little bit more, then they can work on their own time. I literally do that every morning for about two hours, Monday through Friday, from, roughly, 9 to 11 every day, which is a lot of time when you think about it. I'm also mentoring virtual assistants, so I'm not paying the ones that I mentor that I identify in the group as being really smart and might have come from 15, 20 years of past corporate experience, so they have skills. They just don't realize how to translate them to the internet. Again, I love helping people, so I say, "Come on in as an apprentice. You can follow along. You can invite your friends to sit in your house and watch. It doesn't matter." I've hired people from that group as well. STEVE: Wow. That's fascinating. If the person is good, they might have friends that are good. Might as well bring the friends along and train them too. JEN: Yeah. I tell them, "Listen, I'm looking to build teams, so if you already know someone ..." I had this conversation just last night with one of Filipino VAs. She's amazing. I said, "I'm about to hire a few more, so if you know anybody ..." She's like, "Well, actually, I do have three assistants, and they work in my house with me. It's my goal to help these single moms that need some more income to get going." I said, "Great. Let's ramp them up." Yeah. STEVE: Awesome. That's fantastic. That's amazing. Eventually, what started happening was I was like, man, I literally have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on VAs for stuff that was not very good work. I was not happy with it. I started going through, not the same process at all. That's genius. I'm going to have to ... That's absolutely incredible. I'm going to have to think more about that and try and figure out how I can do that too, or I'll just ask you, hire you to do it. Do you have a particular freelance or VA site, I guess, that you like more than others, Fiver, Freelancer, Upwork? JEN: I love Fiverr. Actually, this morning before this podcast, I was looking on Fiverr for a virtual assistant but only because in the virtual assistant groups that I'm in on Facebook, I saw someone saying, "I'm not getting any traction as a VA on Fiverr. What am I doing wrong?" I clicked on the link which took me to their Fiverr account, and I said, "I'm willing to try you out. Contact me on Skype." Again, that's my first requirement. I use Fiverr for other services. If my dev team is too busy with some bigger projects, and I need to knock out some quick keyword research or a quick image, I can go to Fiverr and I can find it. It's just like any other service where you can see the ratings, but for some reason they have, they've made their user interface so easy to navigate and quickly see, "Oh, wow, they've had 200 projects. They're five stars on all the reviews for all those projects. I'm pretty sure they're returning good work, and it's dollars." Who can't lose $5; right? We spend that on a coffee sometimes. It's different from going to the big sites like Upwork and saying, you have to put your whole job description. You have to say, this is 30 hours a month or 30 hours a week, whether it's permanent. They make you jump through so many hoops before you even find someone. Then you might get a thousand applicants, and you have to sort through all that. It's too much work, where you can go to Fiverr and just browse really quickly and click on someone. You don't even have to click on someone and contact them, but you can just put your mouse over their little portfolio image, and it shows you how many jobs, how many stars. Very quickly you can jump into having an assistant or a vendor. I know there's a lot of controversy with using offshore vendors versus keeping it in the USA, and I do keep most of my work, 99% of my work, in the USA. Even my Indian development team is in the USA, strangely. When you're restarting, which is the mode I'm in now after the accident, you need that payroll break; right? You want to have assistants so you can scale your business, but you can't go out and afford the $25-an-hour United States VA, so it does help to go offshore. I do like the Filipino virtual assistants. They are super-smart, super-talented. Their English is perfect. They are very friendly and very accommodating. There's no language barrier like I've experienced with other countries. They're extremely affordable. Here's a little trick that I've done. I've gone to Wikipedia and typed up, "Countries with the lowest hourly rate," and it's mind-blowing and scary that there's some countries or areas of their countries where 50-cents-per-hour is the minimum wage. STEVE: Oh, man. JEN: That's not saying you can just go there and find a virtual assistant. Virtual assistants have to be a booming industry in a certain country for it to be valuable to you, but the Philippines are great. STEVE: That's incredible. There's a workaround that I have found that helps. I did a whole podcast on this actually earlier, because it's a frustrating thing to go through. The biggest things I've learned from Russell, you got to have people. The biggest things I've learned from my own things, you've got to have people. Otherwise, you as the entrepreneur get bogged down. You can't handle all of the tasks. This is definitely valuable information to hear. There was a workaround that I, to using VAs that I was figuring out too. Do you use Freelancer.com much? JEN: I have, but, again, I didn't use it much. STEVE: Yeah. It's a little bit challenging. There was one feature that saved my butt on a lot of different things, and it was the fact that you can post contests. That's actually pretty cool. I needed all these different images made, or I needed a tee-shirt design. I basically said, "Hey, I really want to motivate people, so here's the prize is $100 and everyone submit your work. I'm just going to choose one guy." It was fantastic. I got 80 or 90 submissions, and the whole week during the contest, I could talk back to them and say, "This looks good but change this." "This looks good but change this." I could rate all of their work, which was public to everyone else. All the work, the freelancers started pushing towards a different path as they watched my comments to other people. That's really the only trick I have for VAs. I haven't done anything else that you do with it. It kind of works, but what you do is a lot cooler, actually. JEN: I don't know. The contests sound pretty cool. I remember seeing them on Topcoder years ago when I was looking to build a software, and someone said, "If you don't have unlimited budget to build the software, present it as a contest." I thought that was fascinating, where they have a contest for one part of the software and a contest for another part. Then they have a contest at the end to put all the parts together. I thought that was fascinating. STEVE: That's incredible. Hey, there's a lot of people obviously who are trying to get into this space who want to do what you're doing. I know you alluded to it before, but what would be the first step to getting a good VA? JEN: I would definitely check out the virtual assistant groups in Facebook. It's a close-knit community. People can vouch for other people. There's some names at the top that know a lot of the VAs in the industry, so they actually have requests for proposal boards that you could sign up to and submit your work. Then you know you're getting a qualified VA, or you can find me and I'll point you in the right direction. I would check sites like FreeeUp. That's with three E's, F-R-E-E-E-U-P.com. STEVE: I've never heard of it. Awesome. JEN: It's new. It's getting a face-lift. The site is only about eight months old, I think. They've got some big plans. Nathan Hirsch, who's out of Orlando, Florida, he's doing very well with it. You can get VAs as low as $5 and up to $50 per hour, depending on what skillset you require. Check out the Filipino ... I can't remember the domain names off the top of my head, but there are a lot of Filipino virtual assistant sites out there that you can just Google it up, and it will pull up some of the top ones. They really are a great crowd for your everyday administrative stuff. I'm literally teaching my VAs now how to set up some of the beginning integrations of click funnel. STEVE: That's awesome. JEN: I have a checklist, and they can go through and connect the SMTP and the domain and do some of the basic setup. Then I can take it from there and build a funnel. STEVE: Fantastic. Just because you mentioned it, how are you using it with click funnels? I went through and looked at your site, and it looks fantastic. It's very clean. HowToGoVirtual; right? Dot-net? JEN: That's the academy site that we're launching. The services site, where all of our clients go through is InternetGirlFriday.com, and we're just like any other entrepreneur. We have multiple different sites. What happened was, I needed to get all of this information into other people's hands. I've got 15-plus years on the internet. Of course, you want to package that up and provide it online as a video course or some type of academy environment. I created a class to teach people the four steps of getting your business website launched, because you know how customers get confused about the internet. The internet is so big now, and there's so many steps, and the algorithms. They get approached by so many vendors. "What should I be paying for," and I said, "I've got to find a way to simplify this." Back in 2010, I think it was, I came up with a 12-step plan. Just a way to categorize everything you do on the internet came to 12 categories. That's it. I just wanted to show people, "Okay, Step 1 is your research and your keyword research and your competitive analysis. Step 12, at the end, is analytics." Everything falls somewhere in between, so that they had something that they could follow along. Not that every strategy goes in order, but the first four I call, "The foundation." You've got to do your keyword research if you're going to launch a website, and your competitive analysis, and you have to know what people are looking for, what your target market is looking for. Step 1. Step 2, building your website in a blueprint first. I think that's so important, because you need to get the SEO and the keywords that were revealed in the first step into your website. If you just hand your website over to someone, they might make it beautiful for the humans, but they're neglecting what robots need to see through Google. STEVE: Right. JEN: That's Step 2, build the blueprint. Step 3, build the website. Step 4, connect it to the search engines and some directories. Now you've got your foundation to go offsite and do all your marketing with whatever strategy you're deploying. I package that up into a course. I'm glad that I had the time off that I did, because when I came back to it, there was click funnel, and it was like, "Ah." Finally there; right? The funnel isn't new. The strategy isn't new. It's a little different, because, again, the internet is bigger and more complicated, but a sales funnel is still a sales funnel; right? We didn't reinvent the funnel. We just put the software together in one place, like Russell. All the steps that you used to have to do, you used to have to literally build a landing page, usually in HTML, because you needed it to be a certain way. If you needed a green check-mark versus a red check-mark, it was all piecework. Then you'd have to go to the next step, and you'd have to connect your email responder. Everything was daisy-chained together. It was so overwhelming, that most people didn't launch, because there was so much work. Even me, who has a team, knew how to do it for so many years, I could never launch, because it was overwhelming. STEVE: Yeah. JEN: ClickFunnels comes on the scene and it's all in one place. I don't use the term, "All-in-one" lightly. I don't give credit to many softwares. It's not an all-in-one where you're billing and all your other things are in there, but for the funnel it's all in one. Everything is literally in one place, and it's been so exciting to set up and to get going and to see that now I can literally wake up at 3 am, have an idea, and within two hours, have it going and some ads going, and it's launched. That's the exciting part. My clients are excited about it to. STEVE: That's so cool. That's so awesome. I remember when I first started putting things together for ... It was an artist actually that built the first site/funnel four or five years ago. I remember spending two hours ... No, it was two days, two full days, trying to make WordPress act like a squeeze page. JEN: I know. STEVE: It was the most hellish thing. It was awful. I remember just settling with something. I can't remember what it was. Neither of us liked it. I'm not a coder or programmer. I can read it. I can edit it, but I'm not at all a programmer, at all. I was like, "This is terrible." I almost gave up on the internet a little bit, because it was so hard. Then when click funnels came around, I remember I saw the presentation that Russell gave mine. I probably shouldn't have done this, but I didn't talk to my wife about it. I immediately bought it, and I started using it and building for other people. I was like, "This is the craziest thing." Now I dream in funnel editor. It's the funniest thing. JEN: Same thing, yeah, because back when you were creating your old landing page, which, again, is just one tiny piece of the whole funnel, I often went back and forth to, "Gees, I've got to hire a developer just to create a landing page page template in my WordPress?" Then that never got done. Then you go over to the third-party platforms that are providing fully landing pages. You're like, "I don't want to spend another $50 a month just to do this one piece, because by the time I'm done with the whole funnel, I'm spending a thousand dollars a month just to get it all connected. Yeah, it's been such a blessing, and I'm so excited. STEVE: I think my record so far with sitting here next to Mr. Russell Brunson, I think the fastest we put a funnel out is 45 minutes or something like that, a full one. It's like there's no way. He and I will still sit back and be like, "I can't believe we have this software," and he's the CEO of it. We'll be like, "Man, look what we just did. Look what we pulled off." He's like, "This little change used to cost me 10 grand. We're going to do it in 30 minutes." JEN: I remember testing my first webinar funnel, and I didn't have it completely set up, but at some point I got my reminder email, and I said, "Oh, look, how cool is that? I'm already getting the emails automatically." I didn't even set up the email, and I clicked on the link inside that said, "Your webinar is starting now." I clicked it 20 minutes late. When I did click it, it went right into the webinar that was playing, at the 20-minute mark. I said, "This is magic." STEVE: Yeah. So cool. I know I said we'd keep it to 30 minutes. You are amazing. I can't believe all the stuff you're pulling off is incredible, manager and builder of teams. I'm looking at all these sites right now. It's absolutely incredible and just crazy impressive. Where should people go if they want to follow you, learn more about you, even obviously use some of your services. JEN: Yeah. If you go to InternetGirlFriday.com, then you can find my social media, which is everywhere. We have Periscope and Instagram and YouTube and all that, and follow me on any of those. We're very active there. InternetGirlFriday.com is the service's site. You can contact me there. You can say, "Hey, I don't need to hire you, but I have a question," and I'll be glad to help. STEVE: Awesome. I appreciate it so much. Thanks. This is spur-of-the-moment, but this has been awesome. JEN: Sure. Thank you. STEVE: All right. Hey, we'll talk to you later. JEN: Okay. Bye-bye.   Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get one of today's best internet sales funnels for free? Go to SalesFunnelBroker.com/FreeFunnels to download your pre-built sales funnel today.