Podcasts about just enough research

The tension between doing good research and delivering on tight timelines is something I've experienced throughout my career in design and innovation. This conversation with Sam Zucker unpacks powerful approaches to making research more sustainable and equitable while building systems that support continuous learning and engagement. What particularly struck me was Sam's practical framework for embedding research into organizational workflows. Her approach transforms research from a periodic, resource-intensive effort into an ongoing capability that shapes decision-making and product development. This represents a crucial evolution in how we think about evidence-based design.   Questions This Episode Helps You Answer How can we build sustainable research systems that work within real-world constraints? What makes equity-based research different from traditional approaches? When should we adapt research methods for regulated environments? How might we use prototypes to get better research insights? Why do continuous research systems often succeed where one-off studies fail? I invited Sam to share her expertise because she brings a unique perspective on making research work in complex, regulated environments while maintaining a deep commitment to equity and inclusion. Her experience spans from reimagining college financial aid experiences to transforming employer benefits, always with a focus on serving people who are often overlooked in traditional research.   Episode Highlights [01:40] Sam describes her journey from an interdisciplinary background at Carnegie Mellon studying conceptual art, communication design, and sociolinguistics to founding Reroute Research, illustrating how diverse educational foundations can lead to innovative research approaches. [03:00] Shares insights from working on College Abacus, a groundbreaking tool that helped students understand true college costs beyond sticker prices, demonstrating how design research can tackle complex financial decisions. [05:30] Articulates her core focus: taking complex decisions (like college choice or insurance selection) and making them more understandable and actionable for users, revealing how design research can simplify without oversimplifying. [08:30] Introduces the innovative "researcher in residence" model where she embeds within companies for 3–4 months, showing how deeper integration leads to better knowledge transfer and organizational impact. [12:00] Explains her commitment to equity-based design and how it shapes recruiting practices, emphasizing the importance of reaching participants who are typically underrepresented. [15:30] Details practical strategies for inclusive recruitment, including flexible scheduling, multiple contact attempts, and accommodating cancellations — demonstrating how research processes themselves need to be designed for equity. [18:30] Shares approach to reciprocity in research, explaining how she ensures participants benefit from the process through information sharing and resource connections. [22:00] Describes how to build sustainable research systems that organizations can maintain long-term, emphasizing the importance of integrating with existing tools and workflows. [25:30] Provides a success story of Better Future Forward implementing a continuous research system, showing how research can become embedded in organizational culture. [31:30] Explains her approach to using low-fidelity prototypes early in research to get more accurate insights about what people actually want versus what they say they want. [37:30] Shares expertise on conducting research in highly regulated environments, emphasizing the importance of reading and understanding regulations firsthand rather than relying on others' interpretations. [41:30] Offers valuable advice for researchers working in regulated environments: build relationships with supportive stakeholders who can help drive innovation forward while navigating constraints. [45:00] Concludes with an important insight about the critical role of language in UX, noting how sometimes the most impactful research finding can be identifying the right word choice for users.   Questions to Help You Go Deeper Learning What surprised you about Sam's approach to continuous research systems and why? How does her equity-based framework challenge or enhance your current research practice? Which aspects of the researcher-in-residence model seem most valuable for your context? Leading How might you help your team understand and apply continuous research approaches? Where in your organization would more equitable research practices create the most value? What would success look like if you implemented ongoing research systems with your team? Applying What's one small experiment you could run next week with prototype-based research? Which current challenge could you address using Sam's approach to participant recruiting? How could you adapt the continuous research system to work in your specific context? Practicing How will you build more equitable research practices into your regular work? What support or resources do you need to implement continuous research systems?   Resources I Recommend Monteiro, Mike. Ruined by Design: How Designers Destroyed the World, and What We Can Do to Fix It. MULE BOOKS, 2024.  >>> Sam specifically mentioned finding this essential reading and I agree. This bold update of Monteiro's classic work challenges us to face the ethical implications of our design choices head-on. The 2024 edition feels especially relevant for research practitioners wrestling with AI ethics, privacy concerns, and the increasing impact of our design decisions on society. While provocative, it provides practical frameworks for making better choices about what we create and why. Monteiro, Mike. Design Is a Job: The Necessary Second Edition. Edited by Lisa Marie Marquis, Mule Books, 2024.  >>> While not mentioned in our conversation, this book expands on many of the ideas in this episode and is essential reading for every designer. Reece, Erik. Utopia Drive: A Road Trip through America's Most Radical Idea. First paperback edition, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2017.  >>> Sam highlighted this as one of her favorite books, noting how it connects to design thinking through its exploration of systematic change efforts. The book examines America's history of utopian communities as design experiments. I find it valuable for understanding how ambitious visions for change interact with real-world constraints — a tension researchers regularly navigate. Hall, Erika. Just Enough Research. 2024 edition, Mule Books, 2024.  >>> While not directly referenced by Sam, this newly updated guide aligns perfectly with her lean, practical approach to research. It provides excellent frameworks for right-sizing research efforts to match organizational constraints while maintaining rigor. The 2024 edition adds valuable perspective on remote research and working within regulated environments. Gray, Dave, et al. Gamestorming: A Playbook for Innovators, Rulebreakers, and Changemakers. O'reilly, 2010.  >>> Sam mentioned returning to this book often, seeing it as an intersection of conceptual art and facilitation techniques. I agree. While positioned as a workshop tool, Gamestorming's techniques for structured exploration and collaborative meaning-making are invaluable for research sessions. The methods can help create the trust and openness Sam emphasized as crucial for good research.   Tools We Discussed Typeform: For research participant feedback loops Salesforce: Example of embedding research in existing systems Asana/Jira/Notion: Options for research operations management   Deepen Your Learning 5.5 Things Every Designer Should Know About Hacking Bureaucracy with Marina Nitze — DT101 E106 Language + Design Research + Researcher Self-Care with Abby Bajuniemi — DT101 E96 Trauma-Informed Design + Participatory Design Perils + Research with Vulnerable Populations with Sarah Fathallah — DT101 E72 Remember to join Ask Like a Designer, our learning community at fluidhive.com/podcast for more resources and conversations about design thinking in practice!

The tension between doing good research and delivering on tight timelines is something I've experienced throughout my career in design and innovation. This conversation with Sam Zucker unpacks powerful approaches to making research more sustainable and equitable while building systems that support continuous learning and engagement. What particularly struck me was Sam's practical framework for embedding research into organizational workflows. Her approach transforms research from a periodic, resource-intensive effort into an ongoing capability that shapes decision-making and product development. This represents a crucial evolution in how we think about evidence-based design.   Questions This Episode Helps You Answer How can we build sustainable research systems that work within real-world constraints? What makes equity-based research different from traditional approaches? When should we adapt research methods for regulated environments? How might we use prototypes to get better research insights? Why do continuous research systems often succeed where one-off studies fail? I invited Sam to share her expertise because she brings a unique perspective on making research work in complex, regulated environments while maintaining a deep commitment to equity and inclusion. Her experience spans from reimagining college financial aid experiences to transforming employer benefits, always with a focus on serving people who are often overlooked in traditional research.   Episode Highlights [01:40] Sam describes her journey from an interdisciplinary background at Carnegie Mellon studying conceptual art, communication design, and sociolinguistics to founding Reroute Research, illustrating how diverse educational foundations can lead to innovative research approaches. [03:00] Shares insights from working on College Abacus, a groundbreaking tool that helped students understand true college costs beyond sticker prices, demonstrating how design research can tackle complex financial decisions. [05:30] Articulates her core focus: taking complex decisions (like college choice or insurance selection) and making them more understandable and actionable for users, revealing how design research can simplify without oversimplifying. [08:30] Introduces the innovative "researcher in residence" model where she embeds within companies for 3–4 months, showing how deeper integration leads to better knowledge transfer and organizational impact. [12:00] Explains her commitment to equity-based design and how it shapes recruiting practices, emphasizing the importance of reaching participants who are typically underrepresented. [15:30] Details practical strategies for inclusive recruitment, including flexible scheduling, multiple contact attempts, and accommodating cancellations — demonstrating how research processes themselves need to be designed for equity. [18:30] Shares approach to reciprocity in research, explaining how she ensures participants benefit from the process through information sharing and resource connections. [22:00] Describes how to build sustainable research systems that organizations can maintain long-term, emphasizing the importance of integrating with existing tools and workflows. [25:30] Provides a success story of Better Future Forward implementing a continuous research system, showing how research can become embedded in organizational culture. [31:30] Explains her approach to using low-fidelity prototypes early in research to get more accurate insights about what people actually want versus what they say they want. [37:30] Shares expertise on conducting research in highly regulated environments, emphasizing the importance of reading and understanding regulations firsthand rather than relying on others' interpretations. [41:30] Offers valuable advice for researchers working in regulated environments: build relationships with supportive stakeholders who can help drive innovation forward while navigating constraints. [45:00] Concludes with an important insight about the critical role of language in UX, noting how sometimes the most impactful research finding can be identifying the right word choice for users.   Questions to Help You Go Deeper Learning What surprised you about Sam's approach to continuous research systems and why? How does her equity-based framework challenge or enhance your current research practice? Which aspects of the researcher-in-residence model seem most valuable for your context? Leading How might you help your team understand and apply continuous research approaches? Where in your organization would more equitable research practices create the most value? What would success look like if you implemented ongoing research systems with your team? Applying What's one small experiment you could run next week with prototype-based research? Which current challenge could you address using Sam's approach to participant recruiting? How could you adapt the continuous research system to work in your specific context? Practicing How will you build more equitable research practices into your regular work? What support or resources do you need to implement continuous research systems?   Resources I Recommend Monteiro, Mike. Ruined by Design: How Designers Destroyed the World, and What We Can Do to Fix It. MULE BOOKS, 2024.  >>> Sam specifically mentioned finding this essential reading and I agree. This bold update of Monteiro's classic work challenges us to face the ethical implications of our design choices head-on. The 2024 edition feels especially relevant for research practitioners wrestling with AI ethics, privacy concerns, and the increasing impact of our design decisions on society. While provocative, it provides practical frameworks for making better choices about what we create and why. Monteiro, Mike. Design Is a Job: The Necessary Second Edition. Edited by Lisa Marie Marquis, Mule Books, 2024.  >>> While not mentioned in our conversation, this book expands on many of the ideas in this episode and is essential reading for every designer. Reece, Erik. Utopia Drive: A Road Trip through America's Most Radical Idea. First paperback edition, Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2017.  >>> Sam highlighted this as one of her favorite books, noting how it connects to design thinking through its exploration of systematic change efforts. The book examines America's history of utopian communities as design experiments. I find it valuable for understanding how ambitious visions for change interact with real-world constraints — a tension researchers regularly navigate. Hall, Erika. Just Enough Research. 2024 edition, Mule Books, 2024.  >>> While not directly referenced by Sam, this newly updated guide aligns perfectly with her lean, practical approach to research. It provides excellent frameworks for right-sizing research efforts to match organizational constraints while maintaining rigor. The 2024 edition adds valuable perspective on remote research and working within regulated environments. Gray, Dave, et al. Gamestorming: A Playbook for Innovators, Rulebreakers, and Changemakers. O'reilly, 2010.  >>> Sam mentioned returning to this book often, seeing it as an intersection of conceptual art and facilitation techniques. I agree. While positioned as a workshop tool, Gamestorming's techniques for structured exploration and collaborative meaning-making are invaluable for research sessions. The methods can help create the trust and openness Sam emphasized as crucial for good research.   Tools We Discussed Typeform: For research participant feedback loops Salesforce: Example of embedding research in existing systems Asana/Jira/Notion: Options for research operations management   Deepen Your Learning 5.5 Things Every Designer Should Know About Hacking Bureaucracy with Marina Nitze — DT101 E106 Language + Design Research + Researcher Self-Care with Abby Bajuniemi — DT101 E96 Trauma-Informed Design + Participatory Design Perils + Research with Vulnerable Populations with Sarah Fathallah — DT101 E72 Remember to join Ask Like a Designer, our learning community at fluidhive.com/podcast for more resources and conversations about design thinking in practice!

One of the most revered names in research and design, Erika Hall, Co-founder of Mule Design, joins us on this podcast to challenge the role of research as we know it. In this episode, she shares deep insights into the challenges of navigating research in complexity, and, on the backbone of systems thinking, offers thought-provoking perspectives addressing the growing tensions between investor-driven narratives and evidence-based practices. She brings forth some hard truths on how organizations cherry-pick data to justify decisions; and uses this to help us understand why a genuine research mindset is one where you're comfortable being proven wrong. This conversation is a powerful reminder that organizations need to embrace curiosity, to stay grounded and relevant. As the author of ‘Just Enough Research', Erika, has been a revered design consultant, specializing in asking the hard questions to find the right answers. She takes this episode to show that speed does not equate to better decision-making, emphasizing the need for organizations to focus on thoughtful alignment and genuine learning. She explores themes such as the performative nature of modern business practices, the disconnect between financial storytelling and real-world impact, the difference between delegation and democratization, and how organizations can navigate all this in an interconnected ecosystem. Tune in and learn how to ask the right questions and build an organization that's based on evidence. Key Highlights

Erika Hall reinforces the importance of being willing to be wrong, discusses how good user experiences can be bad, and calls on designers to be honest with themselves. Highlights include: ⭐ Do you ever wonder what it would be like to go in-house? ⭐ What's the truth about designers becoming more influential in business? ⭐ Have designers made the world a worst place over the past 30 years? ⭐ What organisational conditions support a culture of ‘just enough research'? ⭐ Who benefits from design not having agreed standards and ethics? ====== Who is Erika Hall? Erika is the Director of Strategy at Mule Design, the infamous design consultancy that she Co-Founded with Mike Monteiro, almost 21 years ago to the day. And they certainly have pulled no punches in presenting their perspectives. Erika's ability to take challenging subjects and to wrap them in her own signature kooky, cohesive, and compelling style has given many designers plenty of practical ‘in-the-trenches' training, as well as insightful 30,000 foot mind-food to chow down on. She is the author of “Just Enough Research” (now in it's second edition), a distillation of her extensive experience in design research, into an easy-to-follow guidebook that helps designers to think more critically about research and to wield it more expertly. Erika is also the author of “Conversational Design”, a book that helps designers and technologists to make their systems and products feel less robotic and more human. ====== Find Erika here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikahall/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/mulegirl Website: https://www.muledesign.com/ Designing for the Triple Storyline: https://vimeo.com/351167991 ====== Liked what you heard and want to hear more? Subscribe and support the show by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts (or wherever you listen). Follow us on our other social channels for more great Brave UX content! YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/TheSpaceInBetween/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-space-in-between/  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thespaceinbetw__n/  ====== Hosted by Brendan Jarvis: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendanjarvis/ Website: https://thespaceinbetween.co.nz/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/brendanjarvis/

Finally read Just Enough Research by Erika Hall,, which has been on my reading list for a while. Wow! I feel bad after reading this book: why didn't I read it when I started my UX design career!? I would avoid so many pitfalls and have many better outcomes if I followed some research suggestions from this book!If you need a just enough summary for this book, Erika summarised it in this awesome video [https://lnkd.in/gRQcm__S](https://lnkd.in/gRQcm__S)SS). Five things that blew my design mind from this book:1️⃣ Surveys are the most difficult research method of all.2️⃣ Test a competitor's product before you even put pencil to paper. Then test some sketches. And then test at every stage as much as you can.3️⃣ When blue-sky thinking meets reality, reality always wins.4️⃣ The first rule of user research: never ask anyone what they want.(You risk the scope of your ideas being limited by the imaginations of others. )

Lucas est Head of Design chez Agorapulse. Passionné de dessin depuis son plus jeune âge, à la fin du lycée Lucas aimerait continuer dans cette voie, mais pense qu'il n'a pas le niveau pour aller dans une école d'art et en faire son métier. Lucas s'orient alors dans la sociologie et l'ethnologie. Après 2 ans, il se réoriente dans la communication et la publicité. Il y découvre Photoshop et s'oriente vers le graphisme et la direction artistique après une multitude de stages. A la fin de ses études, il rejoint Publicis en tant que chef de projet afin, à terme, d'y faire de la créa. Néanmoins, il se rend vite compte que la création en agence publicitaire n'est pas aligné avec ses valeurs et sa volonté d'aider les utilisateurs. Il passe par d'autres agences de publicité, plus petites, et des agences de freelances. Après ces différentes expériences, Lucas se lance dans le freelance à temps plein. Dans un premier temps, il fait de tout : print, illustration, DA, branding et webdesign. Après avoir touché à tout, Lucas décide d'apprendre l'UX Design. Lucas décide également de voyager de devenir freelance en itinérance depuis l'Australie, la Corée du Sud, l'Indonésie et la Nouvelle-Zélande. L'occasion de parler de la relation avec ses clients français à l'époque, de la recherche de nouveaux clients dans des pays qu'il ne connait pas, des différentes mentalités vis-à-vis du Product Design et de son rôle et ses missions. Lorsque Lucas revient en France, il est contacté par le Boston Consulting Group pour travailler dans le start-up studio de Renault : Renault Digital. Il travaille sur quelques projets qui n'aboutissent pas, avant de travailler, pendant 2 ans, sur le dashboard de la performance et de l'analyse de l'entreprise. Lucas revient sur ce projet qui concerne un grand nombre d'entités et d'équipes du groupe Renault réparties sur une vingtaine de pays. Il nous parle de la genèse du projet, des étapes par lesquelles il est passé pour créer 4 itérations du produit, sa relation avec les Product Managers et les développeurs, sa relation avec la direction de Renault, les méthodologies suivies et mises en place, etc. Lucas a toujours travaillé en tant que freelance, mais après 10 ans, il rejoint Agorapulse en tant que salarié afin d'y créer l'équipe Design. Il doit d'abord tout remettre en place : création d'une direction artistique, mise en place d'un Design System, remise à plat des process entre les équipes et l'évangélisation du métier. Vu à son arrivée comme le “peintre” de l'équipe, Lucas doit expliquer son métier en amenant de nouvelles méthodes de travail. Il revient sur les techniques et méthodes mises en place pour expliquer et démocratiser son métier auprès des employés d'Agorapulse. Au début, Lucas mène de front l'ensemble des sujets avec une Product Designer Junior. Rapidement, la nécessité de faire grandir l'équipe Design se fait sentir pour gérer l'ensemble des features. Il va alors recruter des UI Designers, avec une appétence UX, pour gérer les évolutions rapides du quotidien. Néanmoins, recruter des profils juniors fait ralentir la cadence, car il faut davantage les accompagner et les faire monter en compétences. Lucas revient sur ces profils qu'il a recruter, les avantages et les désavantages que cela a eu sur sa charge de travail et comment il a modifié ses méthodes de recrutement dans un contexte d'hypercroissance. L'équipe Design d'Agorapulse est passée de 2 à 6 personnes en 1 an. Pour s'assurer que tout fonctionne bien, Lucas a mis en place un certain nombre de rituels qu'il nous partage : Weekly Work Overview Design Critiques Design Retrospective Design System Workshop Design Fiction Figma Clean-up UX Research Day UX/UI Level-up On parle également du rôle de la recherche utilisateur quand on opère sur 14 pays différents et de la relation avec le service client et les commerciaux pour obtenir leurs retours. Aussi, aborde-t-on la place du tone of voice et de sa place dans le produit. Et enfin, on parle du rôle des Brand Designers freelances dans l'entreprises, des raisons de faire appel à eux, mais également des problèmes que cela peut apporter en terme de consistence dans le temps. Les ressources de l'épisodes Agorapulse WTTJ Agorapulse Le site de Lucas Dovetail Harvstr Slite Methodes de Design UX, Carine Lallemand The Design of Everyday Things, Don Norman It's not you. Doors are bad everywhere Hooked, Nir Eyal Lean UX, Jeff Gothelf Profession Graphiste Indépendant, Julien Maya & Eric Delamarre Rocket Surgery Made Easy, Steve Krug  Just Enough Research, Erika Hall Ruined by Design, Mike Monteiro Nielsen Norman Group Les autres épisodes de Design Journeys L'épisode #3 avec Romain Briaux, Designer 3D @ Hervé Studio L'épisode #4 avec Loïc Guay, Head of Design @ Malt Pour contacter Lucas : LinkedIn Instagram  Pour soutenir le podcast, n'hésite pas à mettre ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ sur Apple Podcast ou Spotify pour aider les autres designers à découvrir le podcast 

In this conversation, Philip talks with Erika Hall, cofounder of Mule Design Studio and the author of Just Enough Research and Conversational Design. They discuss the power of asking better questions, the importance of design research, and what research tells us about the world. The Drop – The segment of the show where Philip and his guest share tasty morsels of intellectual goodness and creative musings. Philip's Drop: Teedra Moses – Complex Simplicity (https://open.spotify.com/album/5ds3BcAZoYcGl8H1yMbnHg?si=JHesFk1uSbOFOGsyPFxKgw) Erika's Drop: Warrior (HBO Max) (https://www.hbomax.com/series/urn:hbo:series:GXSySgQ5Pe06olAEAAAJr) Ellen Allien (https://www.ellenallien.de/) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Allien

最近读了 Erika Hall 的 Just Enough Research，这本书在我的阅读清单上已经有一段时间了。哇！读完这本书感觉很糟糕：为什么我在刚开始我的 UX 设计生涯时没有读它呢！？如果我遵循本书中的一些研究建议，我可以避开很多职业陷阱，并成为更好的设计师！ 这本书里最让我觉得脑洞大开的五个要点： 1️⃣ 问卷调查是最困难的研究方法。 2️⃣ 在你把铅笔放在纸上之前，先测试竞争对手的产品。然后测试一些草图。然后尽可能多地在每个阶段进行测试。 3️⃣ 当空想遇到现实时，现实总是会赢。 4️⃣ 用户研究的第一条规则：永远不要问任何人他们想要什么。（你的想法范围可能会受到他人想象力的限制。） 5️⃣ 用户调查时的引语通常是用户研究中最强大、最有效的收获。 注意：本期节目为全英文，如果您对设计、职场、效率提升的英文内容感兴趣，请订阅我的播客“Bear Academy”或关注我的YouTube频道(BearTalk)。 Just Enough Research - A Must Read Book For All Designers! Finally read Just Enough Research by Erika Hall,, which has been on my reading list for a while. Wow! I feel bad after reading this book: why didn't I read it when I started my UX design career!? I would avoid so many pitfalls and have many better outcomes if I followed some research suggestions from this book! If you need a just enough summary for this book, Erika summarised it in this awesome video https://lnkd.in/gRQcm__S (https://lnkd.in/gRQcm__S)). Five things that blew my design mind from this book: 1️⃣ Surveys are the most difficult research method of all. 2️⃣ Test a competitor's product before you even put pencil to paper. Then test some sketches. And then test at every stage as much as you can. 3️⃣ When blue-sky thinking meets reality, reality always wins. 4️⃣ The first rule of user research: never ask anyone what they want.(You risk the scope of your ideas being limited by the imaginations of others. ) 5️⃣ Quotes that represent the perspectives of research participants are often the most powerful, portable output of user research. 关于： 「狗熊有话说」播客是由 大狗熊 于 2012 年创办的独立中文知识型播客节目，以阅读、科技、旅行和个人成长为主要话题内容，是 iTunes 中国区长期推荐播客，被苹果 iTunes 评选为「2013 年度精选最佳社会与文化播客」。 收听： 在苹果 Podcasts、Spotify、新浪播客、网易云音乐 、喜马拉雅FM 和 荔枝FM 等音频播客平台中可以搜索"狗熊有话说"并关注收听； 直接于【狗熊有话说】播客官网 voice.beartalking.com (http://voice.beartalking.com)在线收听； 在微信公号文章中可以直接点击音频按钮收听； 支持： 如果你认可大狗熊的节目，请向朋友们推荐这档节目，邀请朋友们关注公众号“狗熊有话说”； 大狗熊会在YouTube上更新更多关于设计、效率与学习类的内容，请在YouTube订阅频道 http://www.youtube.com/c/BearTalkVideo 如果喜欢英文内容，您也可以在这里订阅大狗熊的英文邮件email.beartalking.com/signup (https://email.beartalking.com/signup)，不定期收获学习经验分享。 联系： 微 信：bearbigtalk（公众号） 网 站：beartalking.com (http://www.beartalking.com) 邮 箱：bear@beartalking.com (mailto:bear@beartalking.com) 微 博：@i大狗熊 (http://www.weibo.com/bearbig) If like this one, why don't you subscribe to Bear? Every post, to your inbox. 100% true, and always keep it real. And of course, no spam, ever. Go ahead, click email.beartalking.com/signup to subscribe.

In this episode, I spoke with Erika Hall. Co-founder of Mule Design, speaker, and author extraordinaire. We talked a lot about Erika's books, Just Enough Research and Conversational Design, computers, a new book in the works, and much more!. Intro/Outro music graciously given permission to use called, "Settle In" by Homer Gaines. Transcripts can be found at: https://toddl.dev/podcast/transcripts/hall Show Notes: https://muledesign.com - Mule Design https://twitter.com/mulegirl - Erika on Twitter https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikahall/ - Erika on LinkedIn https://medium.com/@mulegirl - Erika on Medium https://abookapart.com/products/just-enough-research - Just Enough Research on A Book Apart https://abookapart.com/products/conversational-design - Conversational Design on A Book Apart --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/frontendnerdery/support

Today's episode is with Jane Davis, the Director of UX Research and UX Writing at Zoom. She previously led UX Research and Content Design at Zapier, and managed the growth research team at Dropbox. Throughout the episode, Jane tackles the thorniest customer development questions and walks us through the end-to-end research process in incredible detail, covering everything from clarifying your goals and asking the right questions, to selecting participants and synthesizing insights.     We start by going through how she applies her playbook in the early-stage startup context — when you're shipping the first version of your product and don't yet have the resources to invest in a full research team. We also dig into challenges such as deeply understanding the problem you're solving, taking on a competitive or a greenfield market, and figuring out willingness to pay. We also get into best practices for prototyping and iterating, as well as some of the common roadblocks startups face later on, including how to build for multiple users and what to do when people aren't excited about your product or using it frequently. Whether you're talking to potential customers before you start a company, or are looking to get better feedback from your current users, there's tons of insights in here for founders, product-builders, and design folks alike. Here's the book Jane mentioned in the episode: Just Enough Research by Erica Hall. We also recommend checking out Jane's recent article: What's the point of a UX research team? You can email us questions directly at review@firstround.com or follow us on Twitter @firstround and @brettberson. 

 Pre-order Michele's book! https://deployempathy.com/order Follow Nicole on Twitter: https://twitter.com/NicoleBaldinu Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by Recut. If you make videos or screencasts, Recut could help you cut your editing time by half or more. Recut removes the awkward pauses, the gaps and the silent parts so you can stop spending hours slicing and dicing with the razor tool. Recut makes a cut list that you can import into your favorite Mac-based editor, like Adobe Premiere, DaVinci Resolve, Final Cut, or ScreenFlow. You can get 10% off with the code SoftwareSocial, or download the free trial at GetRecut.com.  Michele Hansen  Hey, welcome back to Software Social. I am so excited about what we have going on today. We have Nicole Baldinu, Co-Founder and COO of WebinarNinja joining us. Welcome, Nicole.  Nicole Baldinu  00:51Hey, Michele. Thank you. I'm excited to be here.  Michele Hansen  00:54I'm so excited to have you on. First of all, I mean, you guys have built such an incredible company. Just to give a little bit of background. So, WebinarNinja was founded in 2014. You also produce the $100 MBA Show, which won Best of iTunes in 2014. 23 full-time team members, 100% customer-funded, an amazing business. I am so excited that you're joining us today. Nicole Baldinu  01:24Aw, thank you. That's, that's really nice. It's almost like sometimes you forget, you know, where you've been. You just keep going and charging forward. It's like, yeah, we've been around since 2014. Must be doing something right. Some days, it doesn't feel like you're doing anything right, you know. Michele Hansen  01:43When in 2014 did you guys launch? Because we were also 2014. Nicole Baldinu  01:47Oh, WebinarNinja, like, around April.  Michele Hansen  01:51Okay. Nicole Baldinu  01:52It was around April, yeah.  Michele Hansen  01:53Wow.  Nicole Baldinu  01:54I know. It's crazy. Michele Hansen  01:56It's kinda, so, we launched in January of 2014, and we are still just the two of us. And you guys have like, 23 people, and I mean, it's so interesting how many, like, different paths you can take. Nicole Baldinu  02:14Yeah, and the number of iterations, I think, like, yeah, I don't even remember version one, you know. It feels so long ago. But that's true. Like, I don't think we in, like, even intentionally set out to just grow, grow, grow. You just kind of take one, one step forward, and you just keep moving. It's like, yeah, we need help, like, you know. You're answering all your customer support queries in the beginning, and then it's like, no, you need some help. And then you hire your first teammate, and then it just, just keeps growing. Michele Hansen  02:47So, let's fast forward a little bit to, I guess, would be five years into it for both of us. We met at MicroCon in 2019 and were basically instant friends. Um, and I remember what, I think, I think you might have come up to me, and you were really interested in learning how to do customer interviews, which is, like, my jam. Nicole Baldinu  03:17Yeah, I loved that conference so much. It was, it was such a, I think for me, that was the first time, it was kind of the first SaaS-focused conference. I think a lot of the conferences I'd been to before were very, I don't know about you, if you've attended like, other conferences outside the SaaS space, but a lot of podcasting conferences, you know, I remember the first, do you remember NMX? New Media Expo? Michele Hansen  03:45The name sounds familiar, but I didn't, I've never been a huge conference attender, so I haven't been to a lot. Nicole Baldinu  03:52That was my first conference, and that was January of 2013. And that was literally when I, you know, that was my first kind of foray into entrepreneurship, and so meeting bloggers and podcasters, and it was all just such a new unknown, like world. But I remember like, MicroCon being just really special because I just felt like, that it was, it was kind of like, I felt people were really honest and vulnerable and authentic when it came to talking about, you know, the pitfalls and the challenges of SaaS. businesses. And yeah, and I remember I loved your talk because I just felt like, you did, what was it like a chat, like it was a 10 minute tactic or something, or?  Michele Hansen  04:41Yeah, it was an attendee talk.  Nicole Baldinu  04:43Yeah. Michele Hansen  04:44Yeah.  Nicole Baldinu  04:45And, and I still have your notes. I shared this with you last time we spoke. I still have your notes because I just thought it was so helpful, so practical, and the, the crazy thing is though, when was that? So that was MicroCon 2019, right?  Michele Hansen  04:59Yeah. Nicole Baldinu  05:00That's the first time I heard, I think that's the kind of the first time I really thought, oh, you can do, like, you can talk to your customers. You can do, like, this kind of user research. And I've only done my very first customer user research this year, three years on, but I still have your notes. And it was, yeah, it was just super inspiring. I just thought it just seems like such a cool thing to do. And, yeah, so I finally, finally took the plunge. Michele Hansen  05:28So, let's dive into that plunge a little bit because I think it's, I think it's totally normal that it would take you some time from from like having that moment of being oh wait, I can talk to customers, to then sort of, not just like, sort of working up the courage for it, but also the time and, like, fitting it into your schedule and thinking it really, really through and so, like, could you kind of take us back to earlier, I guess, earlier this year, when you really started to hit the ground on it? Nicole Baldinu  06:03Yeah, and I mean, I should, I should also say that we had done user research and customer interviews, but it wasn't me that had done it. So Omar, who's my Co-Founder, the CEO, also my husband, business and partner in life and business, he had done the first user interviews, and kind of, because he's more customer has been always more customer-facing. He had done user interviews, but it was something that I never felt that I could do. Like, I'd kind of be behind the scenes and reading Intercom, like support, you know, conversations and seeing what, you know, customers were saying and replying. But it was all very much chat and email never like, let's get on a call and let's talk about it. So recently, we've kind of wanted to, the whole reason behind starting to do this is because we wanted to kind of refine part of our offering and also look at a potential MVP out of this, this offering. And so I just thought, I don't know, and all of a sudden, I just felt like I want to do it. I don't even know what, like, why I just woke up one morning and said I'm going to do these, which is, like, really unlike me. But um, but I just decided to, yeah, I think I made that decision, like, I'll do the interviews. And then as soon as I took that decision, I literally went for my notebook from the, to look for the notes that I took from MicroCon. I then went and looked at all your blog posts and everything that you had on, you know, on the topic, as much as I could like, digest in like, I had a week, I think, before I was like, I scheduled the first one. And, and then yeah, and then I was just like, okay, I have got my questions now, thanks to like, you know, I looked up some of the sources that you had, you know, referenced. So I went in, you know, okay, I've got my questions. Now I know what I want to do, I want to know what I want to ask. And then it was literally the mechanics of okay, get a Calendly up, send out the blast, like, the blast out on Intercom to actually invite people to, you know, to be interviewed. So then all those little pieces, too, that I think, like, I was kind of procrastinating on, they just all fell together really quickly. It's like, okay, you just got to invite people, people reply. You just got to have a, you know, a sequence to, you know, send them your Calendly then it all gets done, then you've got your questions. And then it just, then they just started. And then as soon as I did my first one, I was really upfront with the first. She was she was lovely, my first interviewee. And that was great, because I was very nervous and I just basically said, you're the first person I'm interviewing. And so that kind of just made me feel a bit more at ease. And, and she was just lovely, and just easy to talk to and just answered all my questions. And then I just realized, after that call I was like, this is so much fun. I love this. I think when we talked last time, I was like, totally geeking out on just how much fun it is and what a positive experience it actually ends up being talking to your customers. Michele Hansen  09:08I think last time we talked, which was about a month ago, I remember you said that it had basically become your favorite part of your job. Nicole Baldinu  09:19Did I say that? Yeah, it's true. It's weird. It's totally taken me by surprise. I was thinking a little bit more about that, though. Why? I feel like it's a very positive experience. Because initially, I thought oh, you know, there's the potential that you know, the conversation could just turn into like, this is one of the things I thought it would turn into. I thought it would turn into a let's, let's ask about, you know, support for WebinarNinja, like, show me how to do this or complain about something that's not working as expected. I thought it would go down that path, but it didn't. It just ended up being very much focused on the questions I was asking and, which was really focused on what they do, like how they deliver their content, and, and about their business, and about why, I mean, the, my favorite question, and this, I think comes from your blog post, and I think this is what kind of, I see them light up and kind of lights me up is when I asked them, what's the big picture? What are they trying to do? And that question is just, it's, it's just my favorite question on the interviews, because it just brings out, yeah, it just gives them an opportunity to really share, oh, this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. And they get to just, I don't know if I'm like rambling a little bit, but I don't know, would, have, you've asked that question before, right? Michele Hansen  10:55Yeah, I'm curious, can you ask me that question as if you were interviewing me? Nicole Baldinu  11:02Okay. So, Michele, what's the big picture of what you're trying to do? Michele Hansen  11:13And that's it.  Nicole Baldinu  11:14That's it.  Michele Hansen  11:15Like, that's only a couple of words. They're not very big words. Like, it's a such a simple question, yet you have found that that just lights people up. Nicole Baldinu  11:28There's only one person that kind of asked for clarification, and then when I had to reframe it, I just said, why are you doing what you're doing? Oh, my why? Oh, okay. But everyone, everyone else kind of, it was interesting, like, everyone else got it. And it all comes around to you know, they want to help, they want to share, they want to empower. It's just, it just brings out, yeah, it brings out their why, but without asking it in that way. Because I think if you say what's your why, I think if it's all, I don't know why that feels a bit more daunting than what's the big picture? Because the big picture, because sometimes I would actually expect from that answer that they would talk about what they're trying to achieve in their business. I actually didn't know originally where that question would go. That's kind of probably what surprised me. I thought it would be more focused on the business. Like they would tell me what they're trying to achieve maybe financially, or, you know, what their goals are. But it did kind of step back, for some reason it did actually generate the response of this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. That makes sense?  Michele Hansen  12:38No, it does. I've actually been, I was thinking about this a lot the past couple of days, because one of my, my subject matter editors for my book was, they made a note in the, in their edits, that I had a couple of why questions, and they reminded me that those need to be what questions, and I've been thinking about what's and why's all weekend, actually, so I'm so glad you brought this up. Because when we ask someone a why question, we're asking, in some ways we're asking for causality. We're asking why they do something, like, and asking them to sort of think through the reasons why they do something. But if you ask someone the same question, but you rephrase it as a what, it's a much easier question. Like, why are you here versus, what led you here? They're basically the same question, but if I asked you what led you here, you walk me through the different steps that you went through, and the causality can sort of come through the details of that. Versus if I said, why are you here, then you have to sit and be like, why, why am I here? And like, like, you get lost a little bit in the question. And so asking a what question instead is usually cognitively much easier to answer. And, you know, maybe, as you said, some people may, you know, they may appreciate being asked a why question after the initial what question. But for most people asking, you know, I mean, I do this with my daughter, too, right? Like, you know, instead, instead of saying, like, you know, you know, what, like, why aren't you down here for dinner yet? Like, being like, be like, so what's your plan? Like, dinner is on the table, what's your plan? And then that opens up to, oh, well, I'm actually getting this ready. Or like, you know, this weekend, she's like, oh, I'm making a card for daddy for Father's Day. Okay. Alright, cool. Like, you're not, this isn't an intentional thing. But so, rephrasing as a what I think gives it also, as you said, it gives people options to where to take that question. And I think, I think kind of as sort of both of us just had a moment of earlier on when we were talking of like, wow, I guess we have been doing this for a long time, and it's pretty awesome, and how cool is that? Like, we don't really step back and think about that very often, and I wonder if when you asked that question it like, it sounds like you are prompting that same kind of reflection in people, which, in turn, makes them really excited to talk to you because you're making them feel good about themselves and what they do. Nicole Baldinu  15:25Yeah, I'm just blown away by that, just that little explanation about the difference between the what and the why, like, it just takes the whole process, the whole, asking those questions to another very sophisticated level, and just realize sometimes, like, I don't want to, I don't, sometimes I feel like I don't want to think too much about it, but I think it can be so sophisticated and so refined, the actual process of asking these questions and learning more about people. I guess this is my first run at it, and, yeah, like, even if it's, if it's not at that level, whatever I'm getting out of it, I feel is worthwhile. And I know that I can take it to another level because I love what you just explained, and I think it makes so much sense. But yeah, there's, there's so many layers to it. There's so many layers to it. And it's true, I do feel that it does, I do feel that sense of like, it's fun, like they don't mind, like the crazy thing is it's like, I don't know how long the tick, a typical interview should be, I should ask you that, but, you know, I said, you know, I don't want to take up too much of people's time. So I just said, okay, I'll just keep it to 20 minutes. They've all gone overtime. And there's not a sense of like, I need to get off this call. I have to initiate that let's get off this call, because they're very happy to continue talking because we're both actually having, I feel like it's an enjoyable experience on both sides, which is really cool.  Michele Hansen  16:56Yeah. Nicole Baldinu  16:57That really surprised me but, Michele Hansen  16:59So that that makes a lot of sense to me, because you are, like, you're hearing about how your product helps them and, which, you know, you mentioned you, you know, pop in on intercom support tickets and whatnot. Like, I think for, you know, us founders who do, like, talk to our customers a lot just by default, because you know, there's customer support their sales, like there's, there's all those other things. But interviewing someone is so, so different, because they tend to, like,, it's much more appreciative environment than, than like, hey, there's this bug or whatever. But then also for that person, like they get to talk about what they do, and they're actually, like, MRI studies they've done of people when they are, when they are talking about themselves or their experiences to another person, like, the parts of the brain related to motivation and enjoyment light up way more than they do, than if you were, than you were listening to someone else talk or you're talking about something that isn't directly related to your own experience. So it's, like, it is enjoyable for people to, to be asked these questions. I think as you kind of, as we were sort of talking about a little bit with the what's and the why questions like, there's, there's a lot of, like, levels here, but you don't necessarily need to know all of those levels in order to get started. You just need to be, I think, kind of like you did, to just sort of being willing to take the jump, which, you know, I think the first time feels a little bit like a polar bear dip and jumping in a freezing cold ocean, and you're like, okay, here we go. And then the next time you're just like, sprinting towards the ocean and excited for it. Nicole Baldinu  18:48Have you ever been, this is just going sideways now, have you ever been stood up on one of these interviews? Michele Hansen  18:53Yeah.  Nicole Baldinu  18:54Okay. Lots, or just? Michele Hansen  18:56So I noticed that that, like, it used to happen a lot when I was a product manager working in a company. Um, and I think that so, but when I'm from recruiting as the founder, like, people tend to show up. Like, it seems like it's more important to them. Like, when I was working in a company, we had someone who was coordinating all of the interviews, and so we had never spoken to them before we got on the phone with them, even over email. And I think it's easier to blow off, like, an anonymous person, rather than the person they're going to talk to, nevermind somebody who has a title, whether that's Co-Founder, or like, I mean, sometimes we actually invented titles just for the purpose of interviews, like,  Nicole Baldinu  19:42That makes sense, though.  Michele Hansen  19:43Like, I think we had some, like, Head of Customer Experience, which wasn't even a title at the company. And actually, Cindy Alvarez in Lean Customer Development talks about doing this, too, that like, it's much easier to know show when, when you don't feel, like, an attachment to that person. Um, so I think these days, if someone doesn't show up, it's usually because like, something, like, something legitimately like came up. Nicole Baldinu  20:12Yeah, no, I totally feel that because it's literally been just one person. And I do feel like there would be something that, you know, because I do recognize that sometimes I feel like there's an element of not intimidation, but like, oh, wow, I'm actually getting to talk to the Co-Founder, so it is a bit more special for them. And I do feel the first part of the interview might be a little bit stiff, but, yeah, maybe a little bit stiff until we kind of, you know, until I think a big picture question really breaks down the, let's forget that, you know, we're just literally two people talking. And then I think they do forget the interview setting. But yeah, I'd say like, you know, just one out of how many I've done, and it's not that many. I've done 13, so one out of 13. That's not bad. You can do the math. I haven't got a calculator, what ratio percentage that is. But, uh, yeah. Yeah, I definitely think, and the flip side of that, too, is the, the recognition at the end, which I get to feel really kind of special or feel so, it's so rewarding for me when they'll turn around at the end and say, you know, this is so good that you're doing this. Like, they really appreciate that a company would actually listen, take the time to talk to their customers. And they, you know, I've had people wish me the greatest success, and you're gonna do a great job, and this is gonna be amazing. And it's just, and you can, and I feel, I like, I genuinely feel like they're being authentic, because they felt like I've listened to them. I've, you know, taken the time to, you know, give them an opportunity to share what they need, what their pain points are, you know, learn a little bit more about themselves. And then I do feel there's that reciprocation of, like, I wish you well, and no, I wish you well. It's kind of cheesy, but it's kind of sweet at the same time. Michele Hansen  22:17You know, I find that people who I do interviews with, even though it's really not intentional, like, they will offer to do a testimonial for us. They will offer to be a reference like, like, or I'll notice on Twitter, like six months later, like, they're the one who's like popping in on threads when, when people need what we do. Like, it really creates this, like, incredibly valuable connection. Nicole Baldinu  22:42Yeah. Do you have any, like, do you do any follow up? Like, what's the next step? Because literally, I'm at like, stage one right now, where it's like, doing the interviews. And I've just hardly just, you know, started the analysis, and I haven't gotten very far. And then I'm thinking, well, what's the next step after that? Is there some other sort of, invite them to a focus group with, you know, and like, what's, what have you done? Michele Hansen  23:08So I actually, I want, I'm going to come back to asking you about the analysis because I'm super interested to hear about that. Um, it depends really on what it is. So for example, if they like talked about something that, let's say that we ended up deciding in the future might be a new product, for example. Like, I might come back to them and be like, hey, you know, this thing we talked about, and it might have been, like, three years ago, like, we're exploring this now, like, can I talk to you specifically about this particular element again? Or maybe we have a prototype of something, asking them to run through it with us or, you know, if there was sort of something that was unclear, or we needed to follow up with them about. Um, but sometimes there is no follow up. Very often, actually, they will follow up with me and be like, hey, like, you know, like, you guys seem really open to feedback, and so we're, you know, we're working with this other piece of data, like, is there any chance you guys could support that or whatever? Like, they will come back to us very often. But there doesn't, you know, beyond a thank you note, really, there, there doesn't have to be, there can be as much follow up as you need, right? Like if you're doing something early, like it might make sense to, you know, to ask them hey, like, can I come back to you for further questions if our prototype or maybe to help us prioritize different things, like, to go back and do card sorting with them? It really kind of, like, it sounds like you're talking to people who have been customers for a long time. Do we actually talk about that targeting you did to decide who to talk to? Nicole Baldinu  24:40I didn't, I just ran, no, they might not be customers for a long time. But they definitely are users and have an, I would say that the ones who've replied are all you know, they've had, they've used the product for some time, but it could be as little as like a month. It doesn't, Michele Hansen  24:59Yeah.  Nicole Baldinu  25:00Not longer than that. And then yeah. Yeah, we've had, I've had some more longtime users, but generally it's, yeah, just people that, because the question was quite targeted and asked a very specific question when I did the call out, like, do you do this and this? I'd love to talk to you. Michele Hansen  25:19Oh, yeah. What was, what was the exact question? Nicole Baldinu  25:22The exact question was do you run live courses or live training?  Michele Hansen  25:27Oh.  Nicole Baldinu  25:28I want to talk to you. And then so, that was the, yeah, that's how I got them in. So I think that specific question helped as well. I want to know if it helped. Michele Hansen  25:45You picked that question because you said you're exploring an MVP of something, and also sort of potentially repositioning or sort of tweaking your positioning towards that specific market? Nicole Baldinu  26:00Yes, because its current usage, it's a current way that the customers are using, you know, WebinarNinja to deliver live training and live courses. So I wanted, I want to learn more about how they're using it, and where their pain points are, and, yeah, and what we could do better in that, in that kind of space. Michele Hansen  26:23It sounds like it was a question most people would answer yes to. Nicole Baldinu  26:27If they do it, yeah.  Michele Hansen  26:28Right. Yeah.  Nicole Baldinu  26:29But not all our users. So because I suppose you know, there's a lot of WebinarNinja users who are, you know, using webinar ninja for marketing. Michele Hansen  26:39Right.  Nicole Baldinu  26:40And they're not necessarily delivering training.  Michele Hansen  26:43Right. Yeah. So the analysis, before we talk about what you do after the analysis. Nicole Baldinu  26:51Oh, my God.  Michele Hansen  26:53Like, what are you doing? Like, like, what does this process look like for you right now, and it may not be sort of conceptualized as a process. Nicole Baldinu  27:04Okay. So so far, it involves printing out the transcript. Step one. Step two is reading it with a highlighter. And, and so I guess where I'm struggling, or where I kind of want to refine the analysis is, what am I looking, because I'm looking for a few things, I suppose. I'm looking for, you know, words that they say or things that they actually do, actions they perform, things that are concrete. Then there's also the oh, I wish something that they don't do, but it's kind of aspirational. So. you know, how much weight can you put on, on, on on those kinds of, you know, it's like, oh, we should do this. But it's like, what, have you ever done that? You know, would, how likely are you, they don't know. They wouldn't know, right? If it's something just like, you know. And then it's also, yeah, looking at it through the filter of like a marketing message. How would I then communicate to resonate with people who are doing the same thing so that I could, you know, attract the same type of people as customers? So there's kind of like, three buckets, I suppose. And so yeah, and then so there's the highlighting. And then it's, because of there's these, kind of, three kind of areas, and I'm just kind of have columns, and I'm just writing out, you know, things that fit under those columns. Michele Hansen  28:45Do you feel like you're getting out of that what you were hoping for? Nicole Baldinu  28:52Um, well, I have to say so far from just the interviews themselves, I feel like I've gotten a lot out of it. But I want to see, I, I'm not sure. Yeah, I don't know. This is a little bit like, I don't know, early stages. Michele Hansen  29:08Have you, have you tried diagramming the process for them, like, trying to sort of identify what, you know, what their big picture is, and then just all of the different pieces of that? Even if they're not, you know, sometimes we think of a process as like a bunch of linear steps, but sometimes it's also sort of an ecosystem of steps that kind of sometimes all sort of happen in a jumbly sort of order at the same time. And I'm curious if you've been able to sort of figure out what that looks like, for even, for each person. Nicole Baldinu  29:43No, but you're obviously saying that I would do that diagrammatic kind of visual for each one, right? And then later, look at all the similarities.  Michele Hansen  29:55Yeah. So some, I mean, if you're looking at people who are going through the same Sort of overall goal, then it would make sense to, to split out all of the different steps per person. And then to break them out by, did we talk about the different dimensions of problems? Like, the functional, social, emotional dimensions? Nicole Baldinu  30:16You, yes. But I was very, like, new to everything you were saying, so I was like, one process to everything. Michele Hansen  30:24That's okay. So, um, so I find this helpful, especially for, like, pulling out relevant parts that can be used for marketing or like, you know, sort of, wouldn't, like, quote them exactly, but like, the can inform like copy and whatnot. So there's a functional dimension to a problem, which is, you know, they, they want to run a sales training because they need their salespeople to sell more, or something. Like, so they need a tool that allows them to connect with their sales people remotely, for example. There's a social element, which is they are running this training, and there may be 10 people that they are training, and those 10 people have different levels of technology experience, and some of them have been with the company for a very long time, some of them are very new. Like, what are the different social factors going on, and how might they express that? Like, I want my team to feel like they're on the same page, like, for example, might come through and a quote, and then you say, so you hear that word team? And you're like, okay, well, what do they mean by team? Who exactly is on that team? Like, what, what is the story of all of how all these people came to be working together? And there might be an emotional perspective, as well, of like, how, how do they feel about the tool they used before? Was it frustrating for them? Did they feel like they were, you know, banging their head against the keyboard trying to get it to work, or to get their team members to install it? Or did they feel great when they get off of these trainings? Like, does this, do they find the tool, you know, easy to use? Like, and like, those are like, those also can come out in the quotes, too. And so what I find helpful is to kind of diagram the different steps, and they may be they may be linear steps, they may be, you know, concurrent, like, and then, and then, but for each one of those pieces of it, breaking out the functional, social, emotional components of it.  Nicole Baldinu  32:23Okay. Okay, yeah. Wow. This is so cool because there's just, there's so much to unpack in, you know, in one person's experience. And then I suppose, as you see the commonalities, I guess, that's when you, you know, across more people saying, if they're saying the same thing, I guess that's when you get validation, that's when you get, yeah, the understanding that this is affecting, this could be affecting more people. So I suppose I've gone, you know, the experience of actually talking to one person becomes very, like, it's just you and that person, and it becomes very much restricted to that world. And then you've got to step back and go, okay, I've got all these people now, they've said all these things. Now I've got to make sense of it. So it's just, I feel like I'm still, I'm enjoying the first stage so much. Like, and I feel like I've gotten a lot out of that first stage. But now it's like, okay, now this data is so valuable. What do I do with it? And I want to make sure that, yeah, it's unpacked. And then obviously, I know this information, I'm going to be unpacking it, but then I've got to communicate it to the rest of the team, as well, so putting it in a way that's like, you know, I can share it with Omar and the product team and now CTO. So there's just so many levels to it, but it's you know, it's all doable. It's exciting. Michele Hansen  33:59I think the more people you talk to, too, you're gonna start seeing those commonalities in in processes. So like, last episode, I was talking a little bit about activity-based design, which is basically the idea of going a step beyond human-centered design and thinking about the different processes that people are going through, and then you can start seeing the, the commonalities there. So for example, when I'm talking to someone, and it turns out that they're using us because they're doing, you know, US government Home Mortgage Lending compliance, like, their experiences of that are going to be very different than somebody who is you know, working with getting the timezone back from tractors that are in fields. And, but if I talk to somebody who's doing the compliance, like, generally like, like, as I when I hear that I'm like, okay, now I have a better idea of what this process is, from an overall perspective. How can I learn more about this person's, like, their company's specific functional elements, their specific social elements, like, their specific emotional pieces? Like, what do they think of the other options that they've tried compared to the other people I've heard and getting more and more depth each time. But there can be a huge breadth and, especially as I think you guys also are a horizontal SaaS, right? So you're, you're selling across many different industries, and, and I think this is where customer interviews are so fun, because I get to learn about so many industries and like, I'm like, I didn't even know that was a thing.  Nicole Baldinu  35:45I know, so varied.  Michele Hansen  35:48Versus, you know, someone who's selling horizontally, sorry, vertically within one industry, like they might not have that sent, you know, it might vary based on, you know, company size, or stage or whatnot. Um, I'm really curious, you mentioned bringing your team into it, which, you know, as a two-person team, we don't really do as much, but so like, how have you been able to bring other team members into this, or like, involve them in what you're learning?  Nicole Baldinu  36:16Well, so far, like, the first step I thought would be just okay, I'll put it, I'll make sure that I share the recording, the transcript, the details of the person I've used, you know, in like little folders on Basecamp. I've just basically organize it into little folders. And then as soon as I, you know, put up a new, a new interview, then I make sure that I share it with, so far right now, it's just me, oh my and our product, UX-UI designer, Maria, so I just share it, I say, hey, guys, there's a new interview. And I know they've been watching some of them. You know, I've highlighted a few that I thought, oh, this is super interesting. This person is definitely someone we'd go back to. So that's been just the extent of it so far. I feel like if I'm going to then, you know, share it, say, with our CTO, when it comes to more development time or, you know, when it starts to be a thing that's going to be fleshed out, or you know, if there's any development work, then I feel like there would have to be more, kind of, maybe a bit more of a traditional kind of a report where it's like, you know, X percent of people said this, or the majority are saying this, this is what, you know what I mean, it would have to kind of be backed up a little bit more by statistics. Michele Hansen  37:29I think they're, you know, I like to use qualitative and quantitative data together. And, you know, I, thinking back to when I was working in a bigger company, you know, we would say, like, for example, we see, you know, you know, 35% of users drop off on this page, and, you know, and then having a sort of data that like, this is important to the business for, you know, x millions of dollars reason, right? Like, if fewer people did that, then hello, money. And, but then we have like, quotes from people like, oh, well, it turns out that, like, they find this really difficult because that x, or they're looking for this other piece of information that isn't there, so they click the back button. And then here's a quote from someone that says, I really didn't know where to go, like, and then, and it's like, okay, so like, here's the picture, like, and now here, okay, great. Like, here's a project, like, here's something that a team can work on of, like, you know, the bounce rate from here is 35%. Like, let's get it lower because we have the, you know, we understand why people are doing that. We also understand why it's important to the business. Like, statistics, I find will not really come out of interviews, but interviews, explain why the statistics are what they are. Like, a spreadsheet of data will tell us what is happening, but it will never tell you why. Only people can tell you why, but you need both. Like it's, it's, I think there's sometimes people sort of think about, like, that you only use, you know, quantitative data, or, you know, I talk about interviewing and I think you only do interviewing, and it's like, no, like, porque no los does, like do it all together. Nicole Baldinu  39:10Porque no. Definitely los dos. Definitely. Well, yeah. It makes sense. And I think that's just, I think, why the process of actually, you know, literally doing a very manual printing out, highlighting actually gives you the opportunity to, to read because, you know, you're going to get one kind of experience when you're listening the first time and, you know, you're asking the follow up questions. But there's so much probably that's missed, even in on that call, until you actually go and read and, and highlight and just, yeah, analyze word for word, everything that was said. And there's a whole other layer there to unpack. Michele Hansen  39:15Yeah, I wouldn't, have you asked Maria, your UI-UX designer, to also read through them and do her own highlights?  Nicole Baldinu  39:42No, not yet. But that, is that something you, Michele Hansen  40:00That might be interesting. And, and there is research that says that when, like, multiple people are analyzing an interview, they pull out more of the problems. So the, the sort of like the paper on customer research was in the, is in the context of usability testing was called The Voice of the Customer. It's from 1993, or 1994, and they did all these different tests on how to pull out customer problems and analyze them. And they found that multiple people analyzing an interview tends to bring out many more of the user needs than just one person doing it.  That makes so much sense. Yeah. Because then, like, the way I'm thinking, obviously, I'm trying to do this as fast as possible, too, right? Let's get to like, analysis and presentation of like, here it is. This is what we need to do. I am trying to, like, speed that process up. But yeah, the risk there is that it's really then just my interpretation.  Nicole Baldinu  41:02Right. Michele Hansen  41:03Right. And some, they might just watch a video and, yeah, I remember that. But that deep level of analysis is, yeah, is going to be missed if we don't give that opportunity. So, yeah, that's a really good point. I mean, we did that, I believe, like, with the first user interviews. We gave those to our marketing teammate. So, that's how those were used, I feel. But I definitely think if it's, you know, we're starting, you know, if it's an MVP, then yeah, you're right, like someone else needs to go, I think this is actually the problem, or yeah, I agree, or no, I disagree. That's not the problem. And I think, you know, organizationally, giving somebody else the chance to discover something, too, like, they're not just being told what the learning is, but they have it, like, chance to discover it for themselves and maybe see something that somebody else missed. And one thing I love in Erica Hall's Just Enough Research is she talks about how powerful it is to bring other team members into the process because they're, you know, when we do interviews, and then bring them to other people and we're so excited about what we've learned, sometimes people can feel threatened or intimidated by that. Because all of a sudden, there's this new information coming in, and now it's on them to learn it rather than they didn't get to experience the joy of discovery themselves. And, Nicole Baldinu  42:29Oh, my God, you're blowing my mind. Sorry.  Michele Hansen  42:30And so it's more, like, if you can allow them to be in on the discovery process, whether that's as, you know, a silent listener on the call, or as part of analyzing the transcripts, or even, you know, collating transcripts, which is when you find, you know, let's say you find five common quotes, and then you're putting them all together have different commonalities. like they're part of the process, they're part of what's being learned, and they feel more invested and aligned with like, like, I just remember when, what like, when we, when I worked in a bigger company and we started bringing in the developers into just sitting in on usability testing, and not even asking questions or anything, just just listening, like, the level of team motivation and alignment, like skyrocketed because all of a sudden, everybody was learning. Nicole Baldinu  43:23So was, I just, yeah, I hear you. Like that, it makes so much sense, but I suppose it's one of those things that we just feel like, oh, we don't have time, you know, we got to move on. We got to keep, it's one of those things that does take time. But you're right, like, that excitement that I think is, like, this is so awesome. I'm having so much fun. This is so important. I'm learning so much. Just by sharing it, it literally is just my experience at that, at that point, unless somebody else gets to discover it for themselves now. Oh, man. How long, this whole process is gonna take three times as long. No, no, but it's good. It's good. It's so it's so valuable. But yeah. Michele Hansen  44:06And also the, in, the process doesn't have to ever stop. You know, it sounds like you're sort of in an intense phase right now, where you've been, I mean, when did you start doing the interviews?  Nicole Baldinu  44:20Oh, my gosh. Would have been like, not that long. Probably just like, three, four weeks ago.  Michele Hansen  44:29Okay. And you've done 13 in the past month, basically.  Nicole Baldinu  44:33Yeah, less.  Michele Hansen  44:34Yeah.  Nicole Baldinu  44:34Is that a lot? Michele Hansen  44:35That's, that's a lot. Like, that's a really good number, like, um, you know, I guess you are doing a specific like, project. So I mean, usually the, what I, like, the general guidance is to do five and then sort of stop and pause and analyze and see if you need to change your targeting. So, it sounds like you're consistently hearing different things from different people, so that warrants talking to more people. But also making research not just something that happens when you have a specific question, but just as a general sort of, I think, I tend to call it, like, maintenance research, like just sort of, on a general basis. But like, that's, that's really good, 13 in that amount of time. And so it makes sense that it would feel a little bit like, okay, now I have to analyze all of this, and this is going to be a lot of time and like, where am I going to find the time for this, in addition to everything else, but I think, I hope that eventually, you can find a place where you're just kind of doing like one or two a week, and maybe you're doing one and your UX person or a marketing person or somebody, a developer even, like, they're doing another interviews, and then you've got just like two a week, and then it's like, okay, like, what did we learn? Like, you know, does this does this match what we've heard in the past? How does it differ? Like, what new have we learned? Like, is there anything else we should kind of, you know, consider digging, digging on in the future? Nicole Baldinu  45:59Hmm. I love that. I wish, I mean, frankly, like, the five would have been helpful if you'd told me that last time. Five? No, I'm just kidding. Michele Hansen  46:12I mean, you also don't, you don't have to limit yourself to five, right? Like, it's just sort of, that's like, the kind of goal. And again, that's, that is also based on research, too, that you can surface in the context of usability studies, but like, surface 80% of customer needs with five interviews, but that assumes a pretty defined scope. And where you started with a broad scope, it makes sense that you would need more until you feel like you're starting to hear patterns. Nicole Baldinu  46:41Yeah. And I love what you said, like, that it definitely, and I'm so passionate, I think the more I do this, and the more, like, I talk about this, and geek out on this, and just love this whole process, the more I realize how much it should be a part of just regular in processes within a company, like,  Michele Hansen  46:57Amen. Nicole Baldinu  46:58Like you said. Yeah, I know, right? Like, I'm gonna spearhead the user research of the company. Well because it is, I mean, I don't know, like, like you said, we said at the beginning, it's like, it's one of those things, I think, as a company grows, you end up doing a lot more management, and, and that's great, because if you're working with great people, it's okay to you know, to do all those management duties. But this just becomes, you know, and then, you know, there's obviously always the putting out little fires here and there, whatever. But this, this has just been such a positive experience that I think, just really enjoyed it for that reason. So having this as an ongoing thing, I think is, would be great. Michele Hansen  47:44It sounds like you are I, I can just, I feel like I can see how inspired you are by doing, like, by how motivating it is. I am, I'm so excited to continue hearing about how all this goes. Um, and I feel like, I feel like I could talk to you about this all day because, like, talking to people about talking to people is my favorite topic. Like, like for my book, I interviewed 30 people because I just, it's just so much fun. But if other people want to stay in touch with you, what, what is the best way for them to do that? Nicole Baldinu  48:26Oh, like, to reach out? Just reach out, Nicole@WebinarNinja.com. There you go. You got my email. Michele Hansen  48:34And you're on Twitter, too, right?  Nicole Baldinu  48:36On Twitter. I'm on Instagram as well. You know, they can contact our support team and ask them to call me. Yeah, I'm in there. I'm in there every day. Michele Hansen  48:49Awesome. Nicole Baldinu  48:51Yeah.Thank you so much. This has been so much fun. Like, like, like you said, I could talk about this for days, days on end. Michele Hansen  48:59Alright, well, that's gonna wrap us up for this week. If you liked this week's episode, please leave us a review or tweet at Nicole and I. We would absolutely love to hear what has made you think about. 

Join Millani and Erika Hall as they return with part two on User Research! With decades at the helm of Mule Design Studio and two books under her name (“Conversational Design” and “Just Enough Research”), Erika provides us with her take on how to develop a sensible yet robust research practice that will keep your audience's realities front and centre in your organization's vision. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/voicethispod/message

If you are curious about the guest, we are hosting Lea Kovac Beckman. She is challenged with the heuristic “Be curious” from the Xebia Essentials repository (https://essentials.xebia.com/curiosity/). She describes how cycles of curiosity and boredom can foster innovation, what is the impact as persons, but also in this digital era, and how it impacts teams and organisations. She shares how she uses innovation in her work and how curiosity and collaboration can be partners in finding a better solution rather than thinking in isolation. Lea recommends the following resources: Lea recommends the following resources: Curiosity: The Good, the Bad, and the Double-Edged Sword, by Christopher Bergland (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201608/curiosity-the-good-the-bad-and-the-double-edged-sword)  "Izzy, Did You Ask a Good Question Today?", from Isidor I. Rabi in New York Times" (https://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/19/opinion/l-izzy-did-you-ask-a-good-question-today-712388.html)  Why boredom is bad... and good for you, from David Robson, (https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20141218-why-boredom-is-good-for-you)  The Importance of Being Bored in a Digital Age, by Alec Sears (https://thriveglobal.com/stories/the-importance-of-being-bored-in-a-digital-age/)  Conscious competence learning model by psychologist Noel Burch The Flexibility of the Four Stages of Competence by Jared Spool (https://articles.uie.com/four_stages_competence/)  Just Enough Research by Erika Hall Lea (@leakovac) is an independent UX Design consultant with a focus on user research and strategy. Together with product teams she has for many years developed digital services and tools for leading Swedish media companies like the Swedish Television and Bonnier News. She enjoys working closely with journalists, an environment where you are rewarded for asking questions. Essential to her work is bringing different perspectives and skillsets together in all parts of the work process, in reaching a common set goal – both in discovery and delivery. She's experienced that the whole team approach mindset is more innovative, effective and exciting. It enables you to learn about, understand and affect areas that would otherwise be out of reach and comprehension. Lea continues to explore the whole team approach and shares her experience at conferences and gatherings as a speaker and facilitator. She has also published articles on cross-functional team mob programming.

In this episode, Erika Hall - author of "Just Enough Research", "Conversational Design" and co-founder of Mule Design Studio – joins Millani to examine why it's important to take a moment to look beyond the technology and focus on your audience and the value you're providing them. Topics include leveraging minimalist design to empower constantly connected users, where humanist design principles belong in business, and the constant competition for users' attention that can follow you into bed, at work, and yes, even into your shower. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/voicethispod/message

On today's episode Steve is joined by Erika Hall, author of Conversational Design and Just Enough Research. Purchase Erika's books online at https://abookapart.com/products/just-enough-research

This week Jerzy and Rob look at the Lean Into Art project itself as a case in point. When should you check in on your commitment to a long-term project, and how do you think about evolving it while you work on it? Join us for a discussion on re-evaluating the work you’re doing on a project and stepping back to see if it’s meeting your goals. Sponsors for this episode Four Million Years Later Rob's workshops and coaching Lean Into Art Discord Links mentioned: Just Enough Research Thanks to our top Patreon supporters Sarah Loutfi David Armantrout ARTmuffin DADO Stephen Stone-Bush This week's 2 Minute Practice Wonder about goals! Connect with Jerzy and Rob Jerzy on Instagram Rob on Instagram Lean Into Art on Twitter

Settling into Season 2 of our podcast, we have the great Erika Hall joining us for an awesome episode, where we talk about the importance of research and how you can benefit from including it in your product business. We'll also be jumping into the Pack Delorean to take a leap back in time, to discuss how Erika got started in the design industry and what first got her interested in the subject of research. Erika is Co-founder and Director of Strategy at Mule, a consultancy which focuses on helping organisations make better, more evidence-based decisions.She is also a prolific writer and the author of Just Enough Research, now in its second edition, and Conversational Design, both from A Book Apart. She writes about topics that challenge the conventional wisdom of the field, which encourage designers to think more deeply about the implications of their work.Packed with practical advice + knowledge bombs aplenty…

Just Enough Research author Erika Hall and I discuss the pitfalls of polling, the need for humility in research, James Baldwin, and why design needs to interrogate capitalism. And that's just for starters.

Elaina Natario and Vendela Larsson join us to discuss the research, procedure, and findings, that went into their Glides project for the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority. "Gliding to Success" (https://designmuseumfoundation.org/gliding-to-success/)- Design Museum Magazine MBTA Case Study (https://thoughtbot.com/case-studies/mbta) Just Enough Research (https://abookapart.com/products/just-enough-research)- Erika Hall What the heck is a bomb cyclone? (https://www.popsci.com/bomb-cyclone/) Elaina on Twitter (https://twitter.com/elainanatario) Vendela on Twitter (https://twitter.com/vendelalarsson) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Tentative!

On this weeks show we talk about 3 of our favourite knowledge bomb articles on our shiny new blog. We'll take you on a journey from The Karate Kid and Design Sprints, via Erika Hall's approach to Just Enough Research with a slice of failed Coca Cola in the mix, before we take a wander through the angst ridden halls of Shermer High illinois during the summer of 1984, as we join The Breakfast club to talk about Cognitive Diversity. Phew!Buckle up and get your reading glasses out from the back of the sofa, knowledge bombs deployed…Let's do this!—————Pack Articles:1. Is the Karate Kid to Blame for the Design Sprint?https://www.ridewiththepack.com/is-karate-kid-to-blame-for-the-design-sprint/2. Just Enough Research - The Pack Wayhttps://www.ridewiththepack.com/just-enough-research-the-pack-way/3. Cognitive Diversity: Don't you forget about mehttps://www.ridewiththepack.com/cognitive-diversity-dont-you-forget-about-me/—————Karate Kid - The Training Montage:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zamE9cvC6u0Just enough research book by Erika Hall:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Just-Enough-Research-Erika-Hall/dp/1937557103Coca Cola's failed product - C2:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola_C2Simple minds - Breakfast club soundtrack:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gLVqjIvokcRebel Ideas book by Matthew Syed:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rebel-Ideas-Power-Diverse-Thinking/dp/1473613914

Visual storytelling is a big theme with the Lean Into Art podcast. Also: working with what you have as a storyteller to do a myriad of things that go with not just the creative process but also presenting your creative work in a useful and usable way. Jerzy and Rob talk about useful tools to consider using even if you’re not a User Experience (UX) designer. As we make and share our works we often encounter situations where we wonder if we could have shared it better - especially when that’s not our main focus for making a story, game, or other product. Join us for an exploration of some handy tools from the world of skills in UX. Sponsors for this episode Amazon Academy This Panda Needs You Lean Into Art Workshops Thanks to our top Patreon supporters Jodels Pox Gail Buschman Nate Marcel Sarah Loutfi Mike White Links mentioned in this episode LIA Cast 36 - Preparedness, Pt 2 LIA Cast 86 - Character Writing is UI/UX Design? LIA Cast 116 - Collaborating on Your Project LIA Cast 198 - Using the Hero's Journey via Interpreting and Improvising LIA Cast 222 - Tomorrow's Skill or Feature LIA Cast 241 - Launching a Product Just Enough Research, by Erika Hall Connect with Jerzy and Rob Jerzy on Instagram Rob on Instagram Lean Into Art on Twitter

Tanner and Jasmine share their must-read books for designers. Spanning everything from how to conduct design critique or present your work, to what makes a good manager and how learning about org design can help your understanding of the work you do. The full list of books mentioned are: 1. The Design Method, by Eric Karjaluoto 2. The Shape of Design, by Frank Chimero 3. The Design of Everyday Things, by Don Norman 4. How Design Makes the World, by Scott Berkun 5. The Creativity Challenge, by Tanner Christensen 6. The Making of a Manager, by Julie Zhuo 7. Org Design for Design Orgs, by Kristen Skinner and Peter Merholz 8. Sprint, by Jake Knapp 9. Radical Candor, by Kim Scott 10. The Advantage, by Patrick Lencioni 11. The Messy Middle, by Scott Belsky 12. Redesigning Leadership, John Maeda 13. Discussing Design, by Aaron Irizarry and Adam Connor 14. Don't Make Me Think, by Steve Krug 15. About Face, by Alan Cooper 16. The User Experience Team of One, by Leah Buley 17. TED Talks, by Chris Anderson 18. Loonshots, by Safi Bahcall 19. Just Enough Research, by Erika Hall 20. Principles, by Ray Dalio 21. The Dance of the Possible, by Scott Berkun 22. The Elements of Typographic Style, by Robert Bringhurst 23. Thinking With Type, by Ellen Lupton 24. The Visual Display of Quantitative Information, by Edward Tufte 25. Why are we Yelling, by Buster Benson 26. Resilient Management, by Lara Callender Hogan 27. The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, by Patrick Lencioni 28. Articulating Design Decisions, by Tom Greever 29. Start With Why, by Simon Sinek 30. Mastering Collaboration, by Gretchen Anderson If you pick just four books to read from the list, Tanner and Jasmine recommend: The Design of Everyday Things, Org Design for Design Orgs, Discussing Design, and The Making of a Manager (even if you're not a manager!).

Our guest this week is Erika Hall. Erika is the co-founder of Mule Design based in San Francisco and the author of Just Enough Research and Conversational Design. You can find her on Medium and Twitter @mulegirl. For show notes visit: http://kk.org/cooltools/erika-hall-co-founder-of-mule-design/

Six years have passed since Erika Hall published Just Enough Research. Recently she’s released an updated second edition. We took the opportunity to talk to her about her book and research. What exactly is research and how do we know we’ve done enough of it? We talk about making sure you’ve got clear business goals... The post #229 Just enough research with Erika Hall appeared first on UX Podcast.

UX-radio.com is a podcast about Information Architecture, User Experience, and Design. Hosts Lara Fedoroff and Chris Chandler talk with industry experts with the purpose to educate, inspire and share resources. In this episode, Erika talks about the nuances of valuable research. Erika Hall is the co-founder and Director of Strategy at Mule. She is an acclaimed speaker and author of Just Enough Research and Conversational Design, both from A Book Apart. Erika loves helping people overcome the often invisible organizational barriers to doing good work.

Show notesJust enough research | BookRuined by design by Mike Monteiro | BookLemonade's AI chatbot, MayaUser zoom | ToolUser testing.com | ToolJared Spool in Writers in Tech  | PodcastErika Hall on TwitterOur UX writing newsletter

Good friend Erika Hall joins the show to talk about the second edition of Just Enough Research. We talk about the methods so many people get so badly wrong.

Every product manager builds things for customers, and knowing just who your customers are-what their needs, hopes, desires, frustrations and goals are-is the bedrock of all the work we do. But how do you go about learning that? And how do you know when you've learned enough and can get back to building? Well, does has Erika Hall have the book for you!  Listen in as Sandi MacPherson and I dive into Just Enough Research and discuss how we've used the tools and tactics presented there to help us get the best things to customers. We talked through the Who, What, When, Where, How, and Why of user research.

Surveys are everywhere. They bombard us at every turn, and most of them aren't even helping teams learn what they need to know. We chatted with Erika Hall, co-founder of Mule Design and author of Just Enough Research about why most surveys suck and what we can do about it. Check out our blog post about this episode here

Visual storytelling is a big theme with the Lean Into Art podcast. Also: working with what you have as a storyteller to do a myriad of things that go with not just the creative process but also presenting your creative work in a useful and usable way. Jerzy and Rob talk about useful tools to consider using even if you’re not a User Experience (UX) designer. As we make and share our works we often encounter situations where we wonder if we could have shared it better - especially when that’s not our main focus for making a story, game, or other product. Join us for an exploration of some handy tools from the world of skills in UX. Sponsors for this episode Amazon Academy This Panda Needs You Lean Into Art Workshops Thanks to our top Patreon supporters Brandon Dayton dee Juusan Espree Devora Jesse Kauffman Ben Odgren Links mentioned in this episode LIA Cast 36 - Preparedness, Pt 2 LIA Cast 86 - Character Writing is UI/UX Design? LIA Cast 116 - Collaborating on Your Project LIA Cast 198 - Using the Hero's Journey via Interpreting and Improvising LIA Cast 222 - Tomorrow's Skill or Feature LIA Cast 241 - Launching a Product Just Enough Research, by Erika Hall Connect with Jerzy and Rob Jerzy on Instagram Rob on Instagram Lean Into Art on Twitter

Matthew is a Team Lead at IBM. My day-to-day work is guiding / motivating a small team of designers on IBM Cloud Platform, and help them navigate through a competitive Cloud industry and a huge megacorp as it seeks to transform itself. Before IBM, I worked at two startups, two agencies, one small company and one giant company (but less giant than Big Blue). All of this experience has given me the opportunity to work with super talented people and amazing clients such as AT&T, Alcatel-Lucent, Symantec, and Royal Bank of Canada. https://twitter.com/engmatthew  https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattheweng  http://tapswipeclick.com/  Links Mentioned in today's show: Peter Sandberg - https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterinaustin/ Matthew Cunningham - https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewcunningham/  Seeing the Elephant: Defragmenting User Research - https://alistapart.com/…/seeing-the-elephant-defragmenting-… The Craft of Research - http://amzn.to/2t0u5ax  Just Enough Research - http://amzn.to/2own24E 

Let’s be real: writing is hard. We’ve written and rewritten this intro seven times. Taking on any new challenge or project that requires deep thought, passion, and creativity, can push us outside of our comfort zones. It can make us feel anxious about succeeding—but it can also force us to grow and take on new challenges. In this episode, Erika Hall talks with us about starting a design agency, the power of empathy in everything we do, and her brand-new book. > People are actually terrified of asking questions — and especially people who end up in positions of leadership. To say, “Oh, we don’t know this and we have to find something out, and I don’t have the answer” is really scary, and that’s nothing that we’ve been rewarded for our entire lives. And if you want to have a research mindset or just use evidence to make decisions, you have to be in a constant state of admitting that you don’t have all the answers. > > —Erika Hall, Mule Design Here’s what we get into—and of course, there’s a full transcript, too. Show Notes First, Katel shares a secret: when she started working for A Book Apart, she’d never worked on a book before. But neither had the first author she worked with! And it all worked out ok. We discuss getting used to big new challenges, and how to decide when it’s time to take the leap and write a book—and then give the middle finger to imposter syndrome. Interview: Erika Hall Designer, author, and all-around smarty Erika Hall fills us in on how she spent the last year: writing a book (and getting stuck, and writing some more), teaching people how to make better design decisions, and taking on gender bias in the workplace. We talk about: How she started Mule Design and how the agency—and their work—has changed since 2001. Being outspoken online and fighting the trolls who live in our review systems. Why it’s critical to bring empathy into our working relationships as well as our personal ones—and how feeling comfortable being uncomfortable can be the most powerful thing you can do. Why we won’t solve gender bias with education alone; we have to change our own habits and help others learn to do the same. Her new book, Conversational Design, all about how to use conversation as a model for designing interactive digital products and services that are less robotic and more real. The joys and horrors of writing: making it through 2017, surviving the myth that your second book will be easier than your first, overcoming a health setback—but getting through it all to launch a book. Finding inspiration IRL—no, really, sometimes stepping away from our screens and talking to our neighbors is the best way to rediscover the good in the world. And listening to Oprah. And Ru Paul. Fuck Yeah of the Week We end the show with heartfelt appreciation and admiration for Emma Gonzalez (@emma4change) and the massive student activism movement that has been ongoing in the wake of Parkland.To all the people, young and old, who are standing up and speaking out: fuck yeah and thank you. Links: Tweet from David Hogg RuPaul’s Drag Race BBC’s In Our Time The 9 Rules of Design Research Be a Pal, My Dude Just Enough Research Conversational Design Mule Design’s Gender Bias Workshop Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a diverse, intelligent, and motivated team—and they  want to apply to you. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re talking about. _WordPress—the place to build your personal blog, business site, or anything else you want on the web. WordPress helps others find you, remember you, and connect with you. _ Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher Do you want to work with a diverse, passionate team that likes to get shit done? Then you should talk to Shopify. Shopify is the leading global commerce platform for entrepreneurs. And they’re growing! And they don’t just want you to apply to them. They want to apply to you. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re all about [music fades in]. Jenn Lukas Welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. Katel LeDû I’m Katel LeDû. SWB And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. JL Whether it’s a blog post, a conference talk, or a book, writing is hard. Finding inspiration to create is hard, but how do we get through it? On today’s episode we’ll talk with Erika Hall, co-founder of Mule Design and author of Just Enough Research and, the brand new book, Conversational Design. We’ll hear about what motivates her to write, and how she manages everyday bumps in the road to large-scale challenges. But before we hear from Erika, let’s talk about this whole publishing thing. KL So … when I started at A Book Apart, I had never worked on a book before … and neither had Erika. SWB Wait, hold on. You started being in charge of a publishing company after not having ever worked on a book before? KL Yeah, no, shhh, don’t tell anyone that. SWB So, first up: like, uh, I don’t know that anybody could tell because you did great. But, like. how did that happen? KL So while I was jumping into publishing into a book, I was also getting acclimated to the role, and figuring out what I was doing with A Book Apart. And like really, truly, the company was also sort of figuring that out. Which is good. We were growing together. But it was something I had never done before and I was absolutely terrified. I was basically supposed to be the leader on this project. I was supposed to know what I was doing, I was supposed to keep everything going. I was also supposed to establish myself and get a bunch of people to trust me and to work with me and to know that I was going to lead them in the right direction. Um and [chuckles] I felt like I was starting from scratch and completely flailing. There was also no one I could really talk to because I, all of a sudden, didn’t have any colleagues. I had always worked for companies that were large. I had always worked for organizations where I went into an office every day and, all of a sudden, I was, you know, working from home. I was completely by myself and we didn’t have a team. I was the first full-time employee with A Book Apart. So it was really strange to kind of go from being around a bunch of people all the time to being alone. It took me like a good year to just like get used to it. [2:45] SWB Yeah, I mean, something I was really thinking about as you were talking was like, ok, how much I think we often … underestimate how long it should take to get used to something. And big changes take a really long time. You know they talk about like what are the most stressful moments in people’s lives? And some of them are, you know, grief of a close — you know, losing somebody close to them and going through grief, or going through a divorce, but also things like moving is one of the most stressful things. All of those like high-stress things — new jobs are definitely part of that. And I think like — I don’t know, at least I do this to myself where I’m like, “I should be over this by now.” Or like, “This shouldn’t be that big of a deal,” and then it is a big deal and you end up kind of beating yourself up about why aren’t you comfortable yet or why aren’t feeling more in the groove of things yet? And then like you know [sighs] looking at it from the outside though and being like, “Uh Katel! Of course that took a fucking year [laughing] that sounds really hard!” KL Yeah. SWB You get a different perspective. KL Yeah well and even thinking about like the, you know, the question that you asked in the beginning of kind of like, how did you start at this, you know, at this thing that you hadn’t done before? I had like so many fears about that … because I spent, and again, because I was sort of on my own and didn’t have like an ongoing feedback loop, I was always in my head about like, did I make the right choice? And am I gonna do this job well? Like am I gonna serve this company and these people, you know, to the best of my ability? … I was actually just talking to Erika the other day because, you know, her book is launching and she was like, “Oh my gosh, I hadn’t really realized that was both our first time working on a book.” And she was like, “Well, you know what? It worked out.” [Laughing] And I was like, “Yeah, it totally worked out. It worked out well.” JL I — [laughs] I love this because this is like the quintessential fuck of imposter syndrome [laughter]. Like essentially you were just like, “You know what?” You said it. You said you felt like you were flailing but I mean, spoiler alert, because we’re years ahead now. I mean, you weren’t! I mean, you published a slew of great books! So obviously you took this and you got through and you did do an awesome job. So I love it because I feel like we can now look back and talk a little bit about how you were feeling but you still took on that job. You still did it, even with potentially these doubts that you had, or these feelings of flailing, you took it and you were like, “I’m gonna do this.” There had to be this part of you that was like, “I know I can do this,” because you did it, right? SWB Also, this is the obligatory moment where I have to remind everybody that Katel is now the CEO of A Book Apart [KL laughs], where, that wasn’t where you started, right? Like you were the managing editor when you started there? [5:35] KL Managing director. SWB Managing director, sure [yeah]. Um so, right, going from being the managing director, which is obviously still kind of running the show and getting books out the door, to being the CEO means that the people who founded the company saw that you were doing an excellent job and that you not only could lead publishing but that you needed to be at an executive level of the organization. Like … so … yeah. Like you can do it, obviously. I think we have a lot of evidence at this point [laughing] that you can do it. KL Yeah. Here I’m like wiping my brow. I mean, yeah, and I think while I was stepping into having only been in very structured environments, I was like, “Ok, this might be a little more difficult for me.” But it was also a chance for me to be like, “I can make this something that I want it to be.” Which is amazing. That’s an amazing opportunity. But yeah, I mean I think you have to look for those openings and kind of say, “Alright, I can do this job. You know, I have these skills. And it might just be a little bit of different scenario or the set up might be different but I’m gonna apply that.” JL Yeah, I love this. I feel like a lot of times people feel like if they’re in a path with a specific direction there’s no how do they move over. I love that you did that [KL yeah]. You took those and you applied them to a different direction. SWB I think there’s something else thought that maybe also is a parallel to what happens when you write a book which is like, you also have to be able to look at your past experience and have some faith that you maybe know more than you give yourself credit for, or that things that you learned in the past really do apply. And I think some of the time that takes some experience to be able to look at what you’ve done in the past and imagine it kind of coming together in a different way. I mean I know when it comes to writing, going back to thinking about from the author perspective: nobody goes into writing a book for the first time having ever written a book before — like you have to do it for the first time! Right? [Agreeable sounds from others] That’s — that can feel very daunting and I know it feels daunting for probably most people and I think one of the things that really helped me when I thought about writing a book was like, “What are the strengths that I already have that have led me here?” And I mean obviously part of it is like having subject matter expertise that somebody wants to publish a book about. Ok that’s one piece of the strengths. But it’s not just that. It’s not just like your knowledge, it’s actually also about having the ability to take something big and break it down into small chunks … the ability to kind of think about that macro picture of like what’s the whole arc of this thing going to be and then zoom in on the details. Or maybe it’s skills that people already have in things like just doggedly getting stuff done, checking things off the list, like project management skills are massive. Or perhaps it’s just, you know, you can start out thinking like, “I can do this because I know that I have a voice that’s really compelling for people and I’m gonna have to get much better at [laughing] project management,” which I think is true for a lot of authors. You know whatever it is, you have to be able to kind of identify like, “I don’t just have an idea or a topical expertise, I also have some skills that I can apply to this particular kind of problem.” And I think sometimes it’s like … I don’t know, I feel like we work in a culture that really is quick to label people as this or that and it’s like, you know, so you end up in these — these modes of thinking where you’re very defined by the job titles you’ve had before and it can be hard, I think, to remember that those are just combinations of skills and you could combine those skills in another way and end up with a totally different job title that you’re totally qualified for. [9:11] JL Yeah. I can’t think of like how many people in the past have been like, “I don’t really care what title you put on your LinkedIn, this is what you’re going to be doing here.” And I feel that’s like a common sentiment from employers sometimes. KL Yeah. One of the things I love about A Book Apart is that we really look for authors to have — to come with like not just potentially subject matter expertise but like a point of view. Right like some kind of way they’re going to approach or present the thing that they’re writing about that is different or has some kind of meaning that we really identify with. And, I don’t know, I will just say that you know as many doubts as someone might have about whether — whether they can write a book about something, or they are, you know, the right person to write a book about it. It’s like, “We haven’t read a book about that by you.” So I mean that’s a shameless plug to say that, you know, I love hearing from people about their book ideas so, please, write to us, but [laughs] — JL This episode is not sponsored by A Book Apart. KL [Laughs] It’s not! Sorry [laughs]. SWB Um no I think that um I think that that’s a really important thing to keep in mind because I know that going into whether it’s writing or speaking or just in general like kind of … putting yourself out there and talking about your profession and talking about things you know, trying teach other people things you know, it can often feel like — it feels very daunting if there’s other people have written stuff or said stuff before and I have to be totally new and original and then you start feeling like, “Well, gosh, everything’s already been said.” And of course it hasn’t. And you know for me it’s — I’m always thinking like, “What are the problems that I’m seeing out there that my peers are experiencing? And what are the issues that I think people should be talking about more than they are?” And then figuring out what that perspective is and once you have that perspective, I think things really click into place and you end up with a different kind of book, and a different kind of result than the kind of like “Insert Topic for Dummies.” Right? Like which is a different kind of book which might be helpful [KL right] for some people but [yeah] that’s such a limited view on what a professional book could be. Um you know I always think of it as like — I wanna influence how people think about their work and that’s — versus just saying, “I wanna teach them how to do a thing.” KL Yeah. [11:26] SWB I think that’s something that [laughing] Erika does really well, as well. I think that she definitely understands that teaching people about issues in design and research is also all about having that point of view and that point of view is informed by all of the experiences that she has both professionally and personally and I really value that when I read her work. KL Yeah, I mean, she really brings that and her personality to it. So, I mean, she’s also just really fun to read which is a huge bonus. SWB Well, speaking of her being fun to read, I think she’s also fun to listen to. Are we ready to hear from Erika? KL Yeah, let’s do it! [Music fades in.] From our sponsors JL [Music fades out] Whether you have a business, a project, or a podcast, a website is vital. Here at No, You Go, we use wordpress.com because it gives us the freedom and flexibility to share our work our way. Make your site your own when you built it on wordpress.com. You don’t need to do the coding or the design, the WordPress customer support team is there 24/7 to help you get your site working. WordPress offers powerful ecommerce options ranging from a simple and effective buy button to a complete online store. Plans start at just four dollars a month. Start building your website today! Go to wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off any new plan purchase. That’s wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent your brand new website [music fades in]. Interview: Erika Hall KL [Music fades out] Erika Hall is a co-founder of Mule Design in San Francisco. She and I met when she was working on her first book, Just Enough Research, with us at A Book Apart and I had just joined the company. I have since been in awe of how Erika advocates for good design work through her own practice, that she generously shares her expertise, and how she does it all with fierceness and wit. Erika, we are so happy to have you on the show today. Welcome to No, You Go. Erika Hall Hi! Thank you. I’m very happy to be here. KL Yay! You co-founded Mule Design in 2001. How did you and your partner, Mike Monteiro, decide to start Mule? EH [Laughs] wow. The origin story [KL yeah] in that — the mist of time. Well we’d uh we’d been working together and … we had developed a, you know, as has become apparent: we have strong opinions about things, and each of us, independently, I think our entire lives has had strong opinions about things, and we were doing design consulting and we said, “Hey, we have strong opinions about how this should go and we would like uh be in charge of our own choices and especially choosing clients because, I think, that’s where our dissatisfaction with working for other people really came from is we saw that the clients you choose make you the sort of designers you become,” and we saw how those choices had been made and we were like, “Oh we don’t really — this work can be really, really hard and demands, to do it well, it demands a lot of commitment … at every level, really.” So we were like, “Ok we wanna choose our clients … and we wanna this control over how we work with them and control over the client relationship. Hey!! Let’s start a company.” So that’s sort of how it started. 14:40 KL How has running that company changed over time for you? EH Oh boy. Uh … we ourselves became less stupid, I think, because [laughter] when we started we really, really had no idea what we were doing. So the great part — and we talked to a lot of people uh doing our research before we started who had started companies to say, “What should we look out for?” And, “Do you have any advice?” But then over the course as we talked to other people running their own companies we really learned — it’s like what you learn when you grow up, between being a child and being an adult, is you learn that no adults actually know what they’re doing. We really learned that everyone running a company, like at every level, feels like they’re making it up as they’re going along. So, I think, our experience wasn’t unique or that unusual but over time we really found, you know, we’d get in these challenging situations and have this experience to fall back on, and the conversations with clients that used to be terrifying, all of a sudden I had all this experience, and we developed all this experience around working with organizations, and so that part became easier. And then over time we really found that the business has been changing because organizations are building their own internal design teams and so it has worked out, I think, well, in the sense that what we have become particularly good at … is also the set of things that are much more in demand which has to do with dealing with the organizations and creating the conditions for good design, not just providing design services. KL Were there any things that you ran up against that were really difficult for Mule or just challenging in a way that you were like, “How are we gonna help clients with this specific thing?” EH Oh boy. Um [exhales deeply] I mean the thing that makes the work most challenging is how humans make decisions. And what we’ve found is that sometimes we come in and we say, especially now that we say, “We’ve been doing this since late 2001.” We say, you know, “We’ve worked with organizations of every description, from a two-person startup to, you know, an enormous multinational organization.” And it all comes down to how the individual humans communicate and make decisions, that’s what makes a project go well or go badly. And the nature of people is that we actually — we hate change, right? This is something I talk about all the time: we’re creatures of habit. And we like to be comfortable. And doing new things, and going into territories that you don’t understand very well is really uncomfortable. And the thing that’s hardest for us, and the place that we still feel like, “How do we help you?” Is if people hire us and they say, “Oh we wanna do things differently, we wanna change, we wanna be innovative … but we don’t want to be challenged … and we don’t wanna change how we work as an organization.” And then there are limits to how much we can help them if they are still — if we say, “Ok we have to come to this and be really collaborative.” And they say, “Oh we wanna hold onto our fear and hold onto our hierarchy … and we still wanna make decisions based on what the person with the most power in the organizations prefers, rather than what the evidence supports,” then they’re really — there’s a limit … to like if the organ— if the people in the organization don’t want to engage at that level, there’s only so much we can do … because that’s what the work requires. 18:19 KL Speaking of, you know, just working with people and, [chuckles] you know, interaction with humans, like you’re really vocal on Twitter about a lot of things like design research, the political climate, and feminism. Have — do you feel repercussions from that? Or do you like worry about alienating clients or attracting trolls? EH Nope! [Laughs, KL joins in]. KL [Laughing] I mean how has that — I feel like being active there is [yeah] you know it’s a part of your work, I think, and it’s [mm hmm] a part of just not being able to separate politics from design and vice versa. Like, how do you deal with that? EH I mean it is a part — like we would not have like named our company Mule if we didn’t want to establish a certain [clears throat, chuckles] sensibility. And I — I have and I — this is something that I’ve spoken about privately but haven’t said publicly, and now I’m afraid I will say it, but who knows what will happen, is that uh … personally … I have [hesitates] not experienced bad repercussions from being online and being outspoken online. I don’t know why that is and I hope I’m not welcoming it now … but it’s — it’s sort of been a mystery because I say things and it’s fine. Uh we have gotten some repercussions from things Mike has said, particularly about guns, but those repercussions are — it — like I’ve learned a lot about how online reviews systems work … uh and the trolls have come at us. Like every place that we can get sort of a star rating, trolls have come at us to downvote us and so we’ve learned is that those systems work better or worse at um filtering out trolls. For example, Yelp is really good … for obvious they’ve really developed a practice about highlighting reviews that are more legitimate. Amazon is pretty good at this. Google is terrible! So if you google “Mule Design” you will see an amazing set of what I call fan fiction reviews … which — which describe scenarios that have never happened but because they’re indistinguishable, from Google’s perspective, from legitimate reviews, there is no way to remove them [KL right] and — and if you go on Amazon and you look at the reviews for Just Enough Research, they’re divided between — like they’re half five-star reviews and half one-star reviews, and the one-star reviews have nothing to do with the book, and everything to do with us being outspoken, particularly, I think, for things around um gun control. KL Right. SWB You know, Erika, that’s really interesting. Um I think both what you’re saying about not having felt like you’ve been particularly targeted in the way that women are so often targeted online for being outspoken, and I felt a little bit of the same where … I get some but I haven’t had the sort of like coordinated attacks or — or just overwhelming quantity of abuse that so many people I know, particularly women and then, of course [mm hmm], particularly the most marginalized women [yeah] have had, and I — I’ve wondered a lot about that myself too, and then I’ve been like, “Ok well, what does it mean for me to sit here and, like … wonder why I haven’t had more of that? Am I inviting it?” You know, “Should I knock on wood right now?” [Yeah] you know I think a lot of it, for me, I’ve thought about like, well what does that have to do with my level of like privilege and power and sort of, like, a sense of, like, do I seem to be better connected or better protected than the people who are getting more abuse? Is it dumb luck? I’m not totally sure but I’m really interested if you’ve thought about how that’s played a role in how you’re perceived? [22:07] EH [Inhales sharply] yeah! And one of the reasons I’ve been really reticent to say anything about this is because it feels like victim blaming to say, “Oh I’m doing something right! And the people who are … getting a lot of abuse are doing something wrong.” Like that is something I don’t believe in and don’t want to promote that idea in any way. But this is just been generally true in my offline life as well. So yeah, I don’t — I don’t know. I mean [KL yeah] maybe I am that personally terrifying … maybe that’s it. SWB I like to — I like to think that. I like to think that [EH definitely] — that people are a little scared of you and that maybe people are a little scared of me [yeah] and I’m very ok with that. EH Yup. Exactly. Like, “Take me on!” KL Right, if that protects you, that’s ok … Erika, one of the many things that I admire you for is that you talk about empathy as a piece of the design process, but actually also part of the working process, how we work with other people. Can you talk about why that’s so important? EH We don’t talk a lot — enough about empathy for our coworkers and colleagues, and this also ties into the work we do around gender bias and collaboration and all of the organizational stuff about design … is that so often you get in organizations where people treat each other terribly or have a lot of fear … about their colleagues or their — the leadership, and there’s a lot of politics. And so I think we really need to think about empathy for our coworkers and seeing the people that we go to work with every day as human beings. And that’s actually more difficult because it’s — a lot of times organizations in the way that they provide incentives or recognition, even though they talk about, “Oh! We’re a team-centered environment. Yay!” Are really incentivizing to be very competitive and terrible to one another, and that’s the part, I think, solving that … will really help … bring better things into the world. And you have to do that. You have to be able to be honest with each other, and so something that [sucks teeth] um I’ve talked [hesitates] about before and is uh, I think, a few people have been talking about the concept of psychological safety that Google really promoted after they did this project, Aristotle, to look at what made teams work. The idea that you have to feel comfortable … being vulnerable in front of your coworkers and you have to be — feel like you can admit you don’t know things and you can make mistakes and you won’t be attacked for that or diminished for that in the workplace is such an important concept and, I think, that’s — all designers should be looking more inward and looking at that context in which they’re doing their work. [25:02] KL I think about this in every corner of my life. I mean I think about it, you know, in my interactions day to day with just, like, people I’m, you know, working with or talking with or on the street, whatever. And [sighs] I just feel like the more we can do to — to, you know, propagate that, the better. Like if we can start to feel a little bit more vulnerable with each other, [sighs] I just feel like we can do better work. I mean I know that sounds cheesy but [yeah!][laughs]. EH It’s absolutely true and I think this works at every level, like this is how, I think, decisions should be evidence based and we should each other as individual humans with value. And I think the what’s going on politically … connects to how we are in our work lives, and how we are in our personal lives, and our neighborhoods. It’s all the same. It’s like if you’re acting based on fear and myth … um and you’re treating people as though they aren’t individual humans but part of a category that you can stereotype and demonize, that’s true in the workplace. If you’re talking about, “Oh designers versus engineers versus marketing people!” And it’s true in society. KL Yeah, completely. In a recent piece you wrote, actually, “The Nine Rules of Design Research,” which is awesome, the first thing you write is: “Get comfortable being uncomfortable.” What do you mean by that? EH This is something I found in talking to a lot of people and thinking about research after writing Just Enough Research is you hear about all of these … barriers to doing research, a lot of times it’s, “Oh that costs too much money to do a research study or it takes too much time.” And this is all cover for the fact that people are actually terrified of asking questions — and especially people who end up in, like, positions of leadership. To say like, “Oh, we don’t know this and we have to find something out, and I don’t have the answer,” is really scary and that’s nothing that we’ve been rewarded for our entire lives. And if you want to, you know, have a research mindset or just use evidence to make decisions, you have to be in a constant state of admitting that you don’t have all the answers. That has to be where you live in order to continue to learn. You have to walk in to work every day and say, “I don’t have all the answers,” and that just has to be kind of your mantra … and that’s terrifying and uncomfortable. It’s much more comfortable to say, “Oh I have the answer and I’m gonna hang onto this answer,” because you have certainty and certainty is really comfortable. And if you have — if you have a way of looking at things, you don’t want that to be challenged by new information. And that’s very uncomfortable. So if you start by saying, “Ok! I’m just going to be uncomfortable because I’m going to recognize that I have an opportunity to learn something new every day and I’m never going to be done,” then once you get comfortable with that mindset, then it becomes a lot easier to — to accept new information and have really good arguments and discussions with your colleagues about the best course of action, because it’s not going to take away that certainty that you need to cling to and defend. SWB Yeah, I’d love to dig into something that you mentioned a little bit: so when it comes to being vulnerable at work and sort of like having to have that start from within in order to get anywhere, something I’m curious about is how does somebody who maybe isn’t in a position where they have um a huge amount of power at their organization, like how do they find space to do that without sort of making themselves vulnerable in ways that are maybe more negative? I guess what I mean is if you don’t have a ton at work, showing up and kind of putting that vulnerability out there may not create — you know, you doing that by yourself is not going to work if the environment is not [chuckling] uh prepared for it and like so like what does somebody do about that to kind of try to make space for that in their life and in their work and foster that in a work environment that they don’t necessarily control? [29:09] EH That is a great question because it’s absolutely true that if you’re in a more toxic work culture and you admit you don’t know know something, right? Like right off the bat? Then that’s gonna be like fresh meat for the vultures sort of thing. The best way to handle that is to ask questions because I think there’s so much concern with making a good argument and offering a lot of reasons for things, and it’s much better — and this is something you can — I think you can do from any position but it’s still, in some organizations, risky. Uh to just ask. Like if somebody puts forward something with a lot of certainty and you’re like, “Huh! I’m not so sure about that.” Find a way to just ask — asking questions is really powerful and then you can help without yourself starting by saying, “Hey! I’m the person who knows the least around here.” You can create a culture of asking questions and that will kind of shake that sense of false certainty a little bit. KL You also started writing about the impact of gender bias in the workplace and how to be a good ally. Can you tell us … just about that and what made you write it? EH We started … doing a workshop around gender bias and the reason we started doing the workshop around gender bias, it came from the observation that we’ve been talking about gender bias in the workplace, well, for my entire life, but especially in like the last … uh 20 years it seems like the conversation has gone nowhere because we all recognize, “Oh! Huh! Especially in the sciences and in academia,” but, it turns out, in every industry there’s a tremendous amount of gender bias. And the thing I observed having, you know, worked in web-related things for the last 20 years is that it’s gotten worse for women. When I started out in my career, I felt totally supported. I felt like we were all learning things together. When I worked um … at — I started at a more technical position and when I was just learning things about um building websites and running web servers, I would hang out with the nerds. They would invite me to the LAN parties, right? Where you all get on your computer and shoot at each other, playing Quake, or whatever. And they — I had root on the server and that was fine and they would — they were like, “Oh you wanna learn more about Unix? Cool!” And … it seems like i the recent years it’s not that sort of paradise, apparently, that I experienced. And so we started asking the question like, “Why did it get worse?” Um and why is all of this training — cuz you’re like, “Oh people are talking about unconscious bias and we’re doing these trainings.” And I’m like, “This is not working,” and when we talked about it, the core problem we identified is that organizations were treating this like it was a knowledge problem. Like, “Oh this is just something people don’t know.” And they’d do these trainings that would say, “Hey, everyone! Did you know that people act out of these unconscious biases and stereotypes and that’s making it hard for people who are less well represented in the workplace to get fair treatment?” And then everybody goes to these trainings and they’re like, “Oh cool, so everybody does it. So I don’t have to change.” And we said, “Oh what if we … look at the problem another way?” And it really is a problem of changing habits, not just giving people new information. And once you look at the problem like that, it’s a much different problem and it’s much harder to solve in the sense that you can’t just put a thousand employees in a room, show a presentation, and say, “Go forth and be unbiased.” And uh and so we developed a training around, “Ok, how do we help women who are experiencing this in their workplace, do less work?” Right? Because women are often doing a lot more work to deal with the amount of bias that they encounter. And so we said, “Ok, we’ll do a workshop that says, ‘You can change — you can kind of change the habits around this and you can also personally do less work.’” And one of the comments we received was, “What about the guys? Why aren’t they participating in this?” And the reason is that if you’re in a position of — of power and privilege, you have no incentive to change your habits, to change the way things work. This is why, you know, you look at Apple and their diversity numbers are terrible. And they’re like, “Oh yeah yeah, we wanna work on that.” But why should they? They have billions of dollars and what they’ve been doing is really worked for them … but I recognize that there are a lot of men out there who do believe that gender bias is a bad thing because it, you know, it’s like they don’t feel like they need their mediocrity protected. So I wrote that piece to say, “Ok, if you’re one of the guys who recognizes that this is a bad situation and doesn’t feel threatened by people saying that it should change, here’s some really concrete things that you can do to support this type of change.” [34:25] KL I think back on earlier in my career and I had similar thoughts to what you were saying at the beginning of this and I look back on it and I’m like, “I don’t know if it was better.” Like I think that I felt more supported and I’m not sure that I actually was. Like I think it may just not have been a good enough or a big enough conversation at that point and the fact that it is way more out in the open and people who are afraid and have that fear of sort of like holding onto what they’ve, you know, the habits that they have had over the years are — that’s why that just seems like so much more uh glaring. SWB I think a lot about how at the beginning of my career I … did not think that much about some of those dynamics at work because I was really busy trying to like establish professional footing, and figure out what I was doing, and create some credibility, and some sort of space for myself to get things done. And as part of that, I worked with a bunch of dudes who I largely liked and I liked to be able to hang out with them and sort of feel like I was one of them and, you know, hang out at the beer bar, and … laugh at the dirty jokes and whatever. And that was fine and I mean like it wasn’t like a particular horror story or anything but, I think, one of the things that I’ve since very much realized for myself is that a lot of my sense of like, “Yeah ok this is fine,” was coming from a place of … subverting some things about myself in order to create space in an environment that wasn’t necessarily supportive to me and so it’s like I didn’t think that it was a big deal but I’ve since realized that there were a lot of pieces of myself that I had to turn off in order for myself to kind of fit in. And — and then at some point that became like not enough for me [yeah] and not acceptable to me. [36:20] KL Yeah it’s like we — we all had to do that because we had to like try to focus on doing the actual work, right? To get us to the next level or to, you know, start managing bigger teams or get into the meetings or whatever and it’s like, yeah, I totally agree with you, Sara. SWB Yeah so I wonder if it’s like it seems better, like it seems like it was better only because if you didn’t ask for enough, you know? [Laughing] like we weren’t ask— I wasn’t asking for enough, I would say. EH Yeah, I think that’s part of it and, I think, specifically just talking about web related things. Like when that all started in San Francisco, it was a more welcoming community because it was something — it was a new endeavor that wasn’t part of any industry that I would say was institutionalized enough to also have institutionalized sexism. So I really feel like it was welcoming to women, I don’t think it was ever particularly racially diverse. I will say that. But I think what happened is that there was sort of a — this web culture. This like nerdy, little web culture … that was sort of an alternative culture and then, I think, finance culture took it over. I think that’s also a part of it … because I think that’s really what’s changed … is that it’s not like, “Oh we’re doing this thing that makes no money! … that is cool and we’re figuring it out and it’s like a whacky little science project that people who like doing whacky little science projects like.” And then these companies became investment vehicles. And then I think that brought all of that “Wolf of Wall Street” bro culture into it. So I think I absolutely agree with what both of you have said in terms of like, “Oh! We were being the cool girls.” But I didn’t feel as much of that, I felt like, “Oh we’re all doing this neat thing and building this new world and — and having a fun time together,” to, “Oh! Here are people who want to use this to transfer wealth in huge ways and who cares what we’re actually building.” And so I think that is also part of it. KL So we are talking to you at a very, I think, exciting moment, um you have a brand new book coming out. Can you tell us just a little bit about that? EH Yeah, Conversational Design — it’s about using human conversation which humans have been doing for oh a hundred thousand years, kind of as long as we’ve been human, we’ve been conversing. And using that as a model for designing interactive, digital products and services, and really looking beyond the surface because I know everything around chatbots and the speakers you talk to you like the Alexa and Google Home — that’s really been operating on the surface and I think what people are finding now is that it’s not necessarily easier to talk to a system like that and so it goes — I try to go a little deeper to say, “Ok what makes it so easy? Like we’re having this conversation and it’s easy and natural. And what makes that work? And how can we look at that to say, ‘Oh how can we really make these systems work in a device independent that feels more human and humane?’” KL Well as your publisher, I’m very excited about it [laughter]. Um I also know that writing a book and that process is really fucking hard, what were some of the biggest challenges you encountered? [39:53] EH Whoo! Well 2017 just as a whole! That was really hard because well the genesis for this book was a set of things I was thinking about and talking about like ten years ago about language and the interface and all of that. So first there’s the idea that, “Oh this is going to be much easier than my first book.” That’s like the first myth that you get right out of the way [KL chuckles]. And then everything seemed to be changing in the industry so often around this stuff because I started with, “Oh I’m just going to talk about using language,” and then I felt like, “Oh I’ve gotta incorporate these things that are happening around messaging and AI and voice interfaces and things like that.” And then the 2016 election happened [laughing] um and then it felt very difficult to get it together to write a book about interaction design when the world was on fire, and that led to a lot of just sitting in my office, staring at my screen, not doing anything, and feeling terrible. And so that made it hard [KL laughs]. SWB I don’t think you were alone [laughter] in that I mean like I had literally that same problem, but I think everybody I know had some variation of that problem where it’s like, “Is what I’m doing even a thing anymore? Like who cares?” I think, Katel, you talked about this on a recent episode where you were like, you would think about something that you really wanted to do at A Book Apart, right? Like you talked about wanting to build out, you know, the marketing campaigns more effectively and then being like, “Well [sighs], does work even matter? [KL laughs] Do books matter?” [KL yeah] And of course books fucking matter. But it can feel sometimes like they don’t. KL And I think there’s that, you know, like we talked about with Eileen Webb in her interview there’s this like sort of overcast of are we feeling up to ourselves? Like are we feeling ok? And I know, for me, like I often underplay how much it affects me when I’m dealing with a health issue, you know, not just physically and mentally but emotionally, and I really feel like I get slowed down easily, and I used to not think that that was the case. Erika, you went through some health stuff in the last year too. How did you navigate, you know, going through that and healing and just trying to stay on top of running a studio, and writing a book, and just, you know, finishing? EH [Laughs] That was the icing on the glory that was 2017 is, yeah, I’m generally a pretty healthy person and I had a situation and I had to suddenly realize I had to have some pretty major surgery. I haven’t really talked about this much. So yeah, right when I was finishing the book, I was going through this stuff and … so I felt very, very lucky to be like where I am geographically and to have like to have the support and tools I have, and to have the health insurance I have. So it really was a like, “Ok, hey! It’s a thing I have to deal with.” And in some ways, it was great because it was so concrete … and um, and yeah, fortunately like Mike was super supportive and did a great job of hiding how he was freaking out. And it was just like a series of steps. And it’s one of those things like in crisis situations, like I get super matter of fact, like, “Ok. Here are the things that are happening. These things are happening now. Ok.” And so I did that and I was just lucky that everything went great because like you — bay area has the best healthcare in the world, because my insurance was good, because everything went super smooth, and the whole like kind of let’s call it “the ordeal” was like less than two months. [43:38] KL Mmm. Well, I have one last question: where do you find inspiration and optimism these days? EH What helped me, when things got really dark, is to like step away from the computer and just go to my grocer, and go to my dry cleaner, and have these like friendly interactions and say, “Oh this is really where life happens.” Like it’s really easy to get caught up in these — because right now, thanks to the internet, we can know about everything terrible thing going on in the world at all times. And so it’s like, “Oh hey! People are still like living their lives [laughs] and it’s ok in some places on the ground.” And then just with the people I know and the people who are finding the strength to do positive things and a lot of that is also in books, as Sara mentioned. Like books are really important! There are a lot of books that were written during really terrible times in history. Like you look at what was going on, you know, during the twentieth century … all of these like horrible wars and uprisings and then the fight for civil rights in America. And dealing with everything going on there and you’re like, “Wow! Throughout these periods which are arguably as bad or worse than what the crises that we’re dealing with now, people still found the strength and the ability to put something out there into the world that’s positive and enduring,” and I think looking at that is really fantastic. Because it’s so easy to react. Right? There’s so much to react to every single day. There are like ten horrible things to react to, that like pull you down into this really primal fear place [KL chuckles] and I think you find these ideas and these people that lift you up out of it. Man, I’ve started listening to Oprah’s podcast [laughs]. I highly recommend her conversation with RuPaul! All we watch in our household now is RuPaul’s Drag Race, and that really helps. And I listen to BBC In Our Time, which is a fantastic podcast where academics talk about, like, concepts in science, or notable thinkers, or periods in history, and it gives you that historical context, which I think can help crystalize—like, it helps to look backwards a little bit to think about positive ideas for the future, and get out of this corner of “everything is on fire and the world is ending.” KL Yeah. Well I’ve written down all of these recommendations and I’m going to do the same thing. Thank you so much for joining us. It was so great to talk to you. EH Oh thank you! I love talking with fantastic people such as yourselves! [Music fades in.] Fuck Yeah of the Week JL When we plan our shows, we talk a lot about what the Fuck Yeah of the Week’s going to be. And this week we were talking about a few different things. And the thing that kept coming to my mind was Emma Gonzales and the students’ work in the wake of Parkland. I’ve been following some of this work and @emmaforchange is her Twitter account and you start following this Twitter account and you start seeing all of these powerful voices … and all of these powerful thoughts that are coming out of … you know, the children and youth in our country right now. And, for me, that’s … so amazing to look at. And — and it does inspire a “Fuck Yeah!” and a, “Thank you.” A thank you to see that people are speaking out about this right now. There has been — I don’t know if any one of us can look at this and not get emotional but everything that’s been happening, and it’s not that this was the first that anything has brought up these emotions in our country, um gun violence is definitely nothing new. But I think [sighs] every time I see it, I get a little … the sigh is so heavy, I just don’t know what to do. Um I feel very lost, I think now, I think about my one-year-old son. And I think, “Fuck! You know?” Like you start like, “Should we homeschool? Should we move to Canada?” There’s like a gazillion thoughts that come through my head at all time and I just get like a little bit lost and a little bit um, not a little bit, a lot depressed. And like what do we do? What do we do for our kids? What do we do? And when I see this group of people that are fighting for themselves, that, to me … [sighs] … it makes me feel like I could potentially believe in something and that there might — that there will be change. [48:13] SWB Every time there’s a school shooting, I think about my friend, Teresa. My friend Teresa was one of my best friends growing up, and we eventually both moved to kind of different parts of town, so we were in different high schools. And in 1998 she was shot in a shooting at Thurston High School. Um she was shot in the head. And every time. Every time. Right? There’s a shooting in the news, I imagine [fighting tears] myself back at the hospital, visiting her, and talking to her mom at the ICU. I mean. and she was there for weeks, I mean she — she was like … this is such a terrible distinction to have to even make, but she was basically the most severely injured person who lived. I think a lot about her but I also think a lot about, what did I think and what did I go through during that time in my life? And I will be perfectly honest, it didn’t occur to me to protest. Like it didn’t cross my mind … I knew that … America’s gun culture was a problem. I understood that this was not okay or normal. I mean this was earlier, like this was before Columbine, even. I — I knew that, but it didn’t really occur to me that there was a thing that I might say or do about it beyond … beyond just saying like, “Wow, guns are fucked up,” to my friends. And beyond going to hospital and, like, being there. So I think a lot about like [sighs] how much presence of mind it takes from these kids to be able to do that at this moment, and I also think about sort of like what’s changed since then? Like what’s different in the world? And part of it is things like, you know, social media, and access to these tools to really get out to a lot of people really quickly. Part of this is the fact that there’s just been so many of these shootings in the time period between Thurston High School in 1998 and today. I mean that’s going to be 20 years ago this May. But I also think a lot about who these kids are able to learn from, and the kinds of techniques that they learned, and something I’ve been really — I’ve been really paying close attention to, and really thankful for, is that as these kids are stepping up and refusing to be silenced and — and really … doing remarkable work. So many of them have also said that they didn’t just come up with this on their own, that they learned tactics and techniques from people who’ve been doing organizing work, activist work for years, and specifically, you know Black Lives Matter … which did not get the kinds of positive publicity that these kids are getting and doesn’t mean these kids don’t des— like these kids deserve every single second of positive publicity for the work that they are doing. But I think it’s really important that they’re able to also say like, “We didn’t just make this up ourselves. Like there’s people who have done this before us.” And, you know, I think about how much different … my reaction might’ve been if I had had more of a connection to activist groups that existed then, and the work that they were doing, and the skills in organizing, and just sort of understanding the power of protest that I just didn’t know that much about. And so I’m — you know, I’m so — I’m so [sighs] sad that we are at this moment, and in terms of gun violence in this country, and in terms of like so many other issues, but I am Fuck Yeah excited at the kind of like way in which I think so many of us are getting more comfortable with protest, with pushback, with being vocal about the things that matter. I like to see so many people getting out of their comfort zone and sort of like stretching that muscle a bit. And being willing to stand up and say what is important to them. And it makes me hopeful that is a time that is like … hard to be hopeful during. [52:25] JL Yeah, agreed, I mean there was um, you know, students that were in Riverview Gardens High School in Saint Louis that did the walk-out and were told that they would not be let back into school. There was a tweet from David Hogg that said, “To those of you not let back into school. One: that’s a great college essay, and two: your schools will be on the wrong side of history, you won’t be.” KL The people who are saying, “This is going to go on your record, you’re going to be suspended, you’re going to be expelled.” Like, that’s not even going to be a thing if this doesn’t get solved. SWB Your permanent record is a myth, first off. KL Exactly. SWB Um, like guess what’s on my permanent record? Like, you know, like I got in a fight with Pauline Dungan in the sixth grade [laughter] and I got suspended and look at me now, motherfuckers! I’m fine. It’s fine. But I also — you know but yeah I think that it’s — it’s definitely all of these like fear tactics to try to kind of keep kids in their place. And I look at those kids and I’m like, “Man, those kids’ place is in the front!” Like, that is their place. They’re in their right place right now. KL They see straight through that fucking bullshit! That’s the thing, that’s one of the biggest powers they have. JL So thank you for everyone that is working on the march for our lives and for speaking out and for fighting for yourselves, and I hope that, you know, we all can find ways to fight for our kids also today, and find ways to constantly, you know, be advocates for ourself, and be advocates for those around us. SWB Fuck Yeah for the teenagers. Like … KL Yeah. SWB Fuck Yeah! KL Fuck Yeah! [53:55] SWB The kids are all right. KL That’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia, and produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. Thanks to Erika Hall for being our guest today. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please make sure to subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts. Your support helps us spread the word. We’ll be back next week [music fading in] with another great guest [music ramps up to end].

Kyle & Jaclyn chat about Stranger Things, design approaches to personal sites, using improv to build better trust & communication on a team, & the importance of naming and language. Keep Ruby Weird Kyle on thoughtbot Blog Rocket Surgery Made Easy- Steve Krug Just Enough Research- Erika Hall A Script To Kickstart Your Jobs To Be Done Interviews JTBD Mattress Interview Mixed Methods Podcast Design Systems- Alla Kholmatova

The O’Reilly Design Podcast: The connective nature of product management, “no work above, no work below,” and the importance of talking to people who aren’t your customers. This week, I sit down with Matt LeMay, product coach, consultant, and author of Product Management in Practice. We talk about the four guiding principles of product management, what he has learned about himself as a product manager, and how to conduct meaningful research. Defining product management To me, being a product manager is all about being the connective tissue, the glue that connects whatever the different roles are within your organization. The specific organizational roles might vary, depending on where you are. You might be working more closely with technical people. You might be working more closely with marketing people, but whoever those different players are, your job as product manager is to be the aligner in chief or translator in chief, the person who is ultimately responsible and accountable for everybody having a shared language and a shared sense of purpose. CORE product management skills The four guiding principles came out of the four CORE skills, which is an acronym for communication, organization, research, and execution. I wrote a piece on Medium a few years ago, which was my attempt to challenge the traditional three-way Venn diagram of product management with business, technology, and UX. Having worked at a lot of enterprises and companies where people might not actually be that close to the technology side or might not be thinking about user experience as a day-to-day concern, I felt like those three areas captured a common set of subject matter knowledge that product managers will encounter, but not the actual skills they'll need to connect between those different subject matter ideas. Some people commented and rightly pointed out that something seemed to be missing from it. That thing seemed to be an element of research, or the ability to actually glean information from the outside world. Erika Hall, in the book Just Enough Research, says that, "Research is just applied critical thinking," which I love as a way of defining research. I like using the word ‘research’ because it also makes it clear that it's not just about being smart; it's about actually doing the work of seeking out alternate perspectives, and explanations, and ideas. These four skills—communication, organization, research, and execution—each one comes with a guiding principle, and I stand by these four guiding principles. For communication, the guiding principal is clarity over comfort, which is really going back to what I was talking about earlier, about this idea that there are times as a product manager when you will have to state things that might seem painfully obvious or ask questions that you know are wading into really difficult political challenges for the organization, but if there is not absolute clarity in your team and in your organization about what people are working on and why, then you cannot succeed as a product manager. If people don't know what they're doing and why they're doing it, and know that really clearly, then it doesn't matter how good the thing is that you ship or how quickly you ship it; the team will eventually start to fragment and fall apart because that understanding is so fragile and so susceptible to miscommunication and to tomfoolery by people who are trying to steer the product direction one way or another. For the organization principle, we have ‘change the rules, don't break the rules.’ This was another one that took me a long time to understand. I come from music. I am not a process person. I think a lot of folks who start out as product managers are like, "Yeah. All this stuff is stupid. We shouldn't have 800 steps to do everything. We'll just work really fast. We'll move fast and break stuff, and it'll be awesome," but there's a downside to that, which is that when the rules don't work and people work around the rules, you're basically incentivizing rule breakers and people who are not communicating well. The people who figured out how to game the system accomplish the most, and the people who are trying to go through the system are dinged for not shipping enough software or not being performant enough in whatever way. For research we have to live in the user's reality, which is pretty straightforward, but also very difficult. When you work in an organization, you live in that organization's reality. That is your day to day. You believe the things people in that organization believe, and it's shockingly easy to become fundamentally misaligned with the reality of your customer, especially when the metrics are telling you you're doing an okay job, but your customers are actually not that engaged. Living in your customer's reality is about getting beyond just looking at isolated metrics, particularly vanity metrics, to understand your customers and really understand their perspective, their world view, how it's changing, how it's evolving, so you can continue to meet their needs as they change and evolve, rather than getting stuck in the way things have always been and the status quo of your organization. Finally, for execution, this is one one my favorite ones: no work above, no work below. This means that as a product manager, you have to do whatever it takes for your team to succeed. It's pretty well documented that there can be no work below you or beneath you as a product manager. Right? If you have to bring coffee and donuts to the team, that's what you do. If you have to learn how to do something that isn't super fun and exciting to you, that's what you do. Product managers who say, ‘That's not my job,’ or, ‘That's not something I like to do,’ do not generally succeed. Living in your user’s reality I'm a firm believer in qualitative research generally, but within that set of qualitative research, I'm a firm believer in talking to people who are not your best customers. I'm a firm believer in talking to people who are considered casual users or users who abandoned your product. There's a tendency, when companies do qualitative research, to over index on the power users and the good customers and to just keep building things for them, but when you talk about living in your user's reality, you're really talking about living in multiple realities for multiple users. In a lot of cases, the people you're talking to need to be the people you're most afraid to hear from or who you initially feel have the most tenuous and least passionate understanding of your project, because those are often the people who are going to make or break your product's success and who are going to be where your growth opportunities come from. When I talk about living in your user's reality, a lot of that has to do with getting outside of the closed feedback loop of looking for the vanity metrics that support that you're doing a good job and talking to the good customers who will tell you how much they love your product and also have a million product ideas. It's the people who don't really have any product ideas who are just like, ‘Yeah. I don't know. It's fine. Sometimes I use it. Sometimes I don't’—those are the people whose perspective you really need to understand the most because their perspective is probably the farthest away from yours. Not taking those people seriously, not considering them, is a very dangerous thing that I've seen a lot of product organizations do and fall into. It's funny. I was at a training with a financial services company a few weeks ago. We were walking through some qualitative research, and people were getting very tense, ‘Well, I'm talking to somebody, but they went totally off into left field, and they're not talking about my product anymore. They're talking about their life.’ I get that concern. Right? Because you're there to do a job, but there's an element, and this feels sort of esoteric, but I think it's true, there's an element of faith that goes into those kinds of conversations, where if you really trust and follow somebody's own line of thinking, there will be value in it, but if you go in trying to steer a conversation back to your assumptions or the things that you want to be true, that is exactly where the conversation will go. Related resources: Product Management in Practice—live online training course by Matt LeMay Product Management for the Enterprise—online video tutorial by Blair Reeves

The O’Reilly Design Podcast: The connective nature of product management, “no work above, no work below,” and the importance of talking to people who aren’t your customers. This week, I sit down with Matt LeMay, product coach, consultant, and author of Product Management in Practice. We talk about the four guiding principles of product management, what he has learned about himself as a product manager, and how to conduct meaningful research. Defining product management To me, being a product manager is all about being the connective tissue, the glue that connects whatever the different roles are within your organization. The specific organizational roles might vary, depending on where you are. You might be working more closely with technical people. You might be working more closely with marketing people, but whoever those different players are, your job as product manager is to be the aligner in chief or translator in chief, the person who is ultimately responsible and accountable for everybody having a shared language and a shared sense of purpose. CORE product management skills The four guiding principles came out of the four CORE skills, which is an acronym for communication, organization, research, and execution. I wrote a piece on Medium a few years ago, which was my attempt to challenge the traditional three-way Venn diagram of product management with business, technology, and UX. Having worked at a lot of enterprises and companies where people might not actually be that close to the technology side or might not be thinking about user experience as a day-to-day concern, I felt like those three areas captured a common set of subject matter knowledge that product managers will encounter, but not the actual skills they'll need to connect between those different subject matter ideas. Some people commented and rightly pointed out that something seemed to be missing from it. That thing seemed to be an element of research, or the ability to actually glean information from the outside world. Erika Hall, in the book Just Enough Research, says that, "Research is just applied critical thinking," which I love as a way of defining research. I like using the word ‘research’ because it also makes it clear that it's not just about being smart; it's about actually doing the work of seeking out alternate perspectives, and explanations, and ideas. These four skills—communication, organization, research, and execution—each one comes with a guiding principle, and I stand by these four guiding principles. For communication, the guiding principal is clarity over comfort, which is really going back to what I was talking about earlier, about this idea that there are times as a product manager when you will have to state things that might seem painfully obvious or ask questions that you know are wading into really difficult political challenges for the organization, but if there is not absolute clarity in your team and in your organization about what people are working on and why, then you cannot succeed as a product manager. If people don't know what they're doing and why they're doing it, and know that really clearly, then it doesn't matter how good the thing is that you ship or how quickly you ship it; the team will eventually start to fragment and fall apart because that understanding is so fragile and so susceptible to miscommunication and to tomfoolery by people who are trying to steer the product direction one way or another. For the organization principle, we have ‘change the rules, don't break the rules.’ This was another one that took me a long time to understand. I come from music. I am not a process person. I think a lot of folks who start out as product managers are like, "Yeah. All this stuff is stupid. We shouldn't have 800 steps to do everything. We'll just work really fast. We'll move fast and break stuff, and it'll be awesome," but there's a downside to that, which is that when the rules don't work and people work around the rules, you're basically incentivizing rule breakers and people who are not communicating well. The people who figured out how to game the system accomplish the most, and the people who are trying to go through the system are dinged for not shipping enough software or not being performant enough in whatever way. For research we have to live in the user's reality, which is pretty straightforward, but also very difficult. When you work in an organization, you live in that organization's reality. That is your day to day. You believe the things people in that organization believe, and it's shockingly easy to become fundamentally misaligned with the reality of your customer, especially when the metrics are telling you you're doing an okay job, but your customers are actually not that engaged. Living in your customer's reality is about getting beyond just looking at isolated metrics, particularly vanity metrics, to understand your customers and really understand their perspective, their world view, how it's changing, how it's evolving, so you can continue to meet their needs as they change and evolve, rather than getting stuck in the way things have always been and the status quo of your organization. Finally, for execution, this is one one my favorite ones: no work above, no work below. This means that as a product manager, you have to do whatever it takes for your team to succeed. It's pretty well documented that there can be no work below you or beneath you as a product manager. Right? If you have to bring coffee and donuts to the team, that's what you do. If you have to learn how to do something that isn't super fun and exciting to you, that's what you do. Product managers who say, ‘That's not my job,’ or, ‘That's not something I like to do,’ do not generally succeed. Living in your user’s reality I'm a firm believer in qualitative research generally, but within that set of qualitative research, I'm a firm believer in talking to people who are not your best customers. I'm a firm believer in talking to people who are considered casual users or users who abandoned your product. There's a tendency, when companies do qualitative research, to over index on the power users and the good customers and to just keep building things for them, but when you talk about living in your user's reality, you're really talking about living in multiple realities for multiple users. In a lot of cases, the people you're talking to need to be the people you're most afraid to hear from or who you initially feel have the most tenuous and least passionate understanding of your project, because those are often the people who are going to make or break your product's success and who are going to be where your growth opportunities come from. When I talk about living in your user's reality, a lot of that has to do with getting outside of the closed feedback loop of looking for the vanity metrics that support that you're doing a good job and talking to the good customers who will tell you how much they love your product and also have a million product ideas. It's the people who don't really have any product ideas who are just like, ‘Yeah. I don't know. It's fine. Sometimes I use it. Sometimes I don't’—those are the people whose perspective you really need to understand the most because their perspective is probably the farthest away from yours. Not taking those people seriously, not considering them, is a very dangerous thing that I've seen a lot of product organizations do and fall into. It's funny. I was at a training with a financial services company a few weeks ago. We were walking through some qualitative research, and people were getting very tense, ‘Well, I'm talking to somebody, but they went totally off into left field, and they're not talking about my product anymore. They're talking about their life.’ I get that concern. Right? Because you're there to do a job, but there's an element, and this feels sort of esoteric, but I think it's true, there's an element of faith that goes into those kinds of conversations, where if you really trust and follow somebody's own line of thinking, there will be value in it, but if you go in trying to steer a conversation back to your assumptions or the things that you want to be true, that is exactly where the conversation will go. Related resources: Product Management in Practice—live online training course by Matt LeMay Product Management for the Enterprise—online video tutorial by Blair Reeves

Erika Hall is the co-founder of Mule Design, and the author of “Just Enough Research” - a handbook for improving design with smart, effective user research. Erika uses business goals to focus a project - and targeted customer insights to inform the design. She's got a big bag of research techniques - and knows which ones to pull out to get the job done. If you're into customer-centered design, Erika's work is right up your alley. Check out the episode notes for links and videos featuring Erika' work.

This week we caught up with Erika Hall, co-founder of Mule Design and author of Just Enough Research. We dive deep into a handful of topics, from user research to gender in tech, from the Apple Watch to the evolution of San Francisco culture - we had a lot of fun recording this one!

What is design research, why is it valuable, and how can you work research into the planning of your project? Erika Hall, author of the new A Book Apart book Just Enough Research, joins Jen Simmons to explain.