Podcast appearances and mentions of erika hall

“The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed” Science fiction is inspiring, frightening, and often the best lens into the future. Many ideas about the future are b******t —just like this quote being misattributed to the ever-amazing William Gibson— but even the wildest idea shares truths worth discussing.This week's newsletter is an exercise in imagining how AI will transform the way that we work. The future will impact us differently because some already live with a future-centred mindset, while others prefer to shift their thinking daily. One such future-centred thinker is John Whalen, the author of Design for How People Think and the Founder of Brilliant Experience. He shifted from being an AI skeptic to an advocate because he sees a tidal wave of change coming to how product teams operate.Listen on Spotify | Listen on Apple Podcasts | Watch on YouTubeIn the episode, we discuss how he's implemented AI into his workflows and how he can now accomplish projects in one week that used to take seven weeks to complete. He makes a compelling case for why every team should use AI-moderation and synthetic users to enhance product outcomes. But most importantly, he's become an AI advocate because, over his three-decade career, introducing new tools has always been met with doubts and resistance. Ultimately, businesses force the adoption of tools that deliver a clear ROI. There's still much to debate about AI. Reports like this one from Microsoft continue to show that AI isn't ready to replace humans at key tasks. Another 2024 study found that ChatGPT delivered inconsistent results on a key qualitative research task, compared to humans. The most important thing about this study wasn't that humans outperformed LLMs; it was the significant performance improvement from GPT-3.5 to GPT-4.0. AI is getting much better at tasks that seemed unimaginable to automate. We're hearing the same shocking stories across design, development, research, marketing, and sales. Undoubtedly, AI will be able to automate most of our work within a few years.Will that mean we'll be replaced? Yes and no. Just like the industrial age and globalization destroyed artisans, AI will significantly reduce the headcount of “artisanal” product people and the rest of the work will be an assembly line of tool operators.Automation will significantly change many people's lives in ways that may be painful and enduring. But for the economy as a whole, more jobs will be created, and those jobs will look different from those today.Thanks for reading Design of AI. Subscribe to receive new posts.Should we be worried about our jobs?These same conversations are happening across all fields:* Will AI Replace Therapists?* As Technology Progresses, Certain Accounting Jobs May Fade Away* The Risk of Dependence on Artificial Intelligence in Surgery* AI could terminate graphic designers before 2030You're probably reading this with a sense of confidence that you're shielded from the impacts of AI because you're working on the bleeding edge of technology. It's true. You should be better equipped to navigate the changes as they happen and adapt to the future better than others. Conversely, your roles face additional pressure to change faster than in other industries. The business realities of being backed by venture capital and private equity mean you're always chasing the future. Tech and agencies have to unlock benefits from AI or risk losing market share and funding.The problem is that nobody can agree on AI's expected impact because it's still just science fiction.According to the OECD report, the level of impact will largely depend on the level of adoption. High adopters might expect a 3x gain compared to those who adopt AI minimally. A McKinsey report highlights the pressure being placed on employees. Their data shows that C-suite executives blame employee readiness as a barrier to gaining benefits from AI. Only 1% of them believe their AI investments have reached maturity.Combined with last week's conversation with Jan Emmanuele, AI investments in creative augmentation and automation will surge in 2026 and beyond. This suggests that employees will be under a lot of pressure to become more productive or else be replaced. Listen to that episode for more details on how AI is being adopted:Listen on Spotify | Listen on Apple PodcastsHow will jobs change as a result of AI?There's no doubt that our jobs will change. They've had to change every time a transformative new technology becomes widely adopted. The only difference now is the speed at which change is happening.Let's analyze how roles are changing from the perspective of product teams.* Our jobs used to be distinct. Each of us had specialties and expertise in areas that protected us.* Our jobs are increasingly commoditized, meaning people from other jobs can do many of our tasks.For example, a designer can now do tasks that previously were out of their sphere:* Use ChatGPT and Cove to explore a strategy and build a business case.* Use Wondering and Vurvey to launch and analyze a research campaign.* Use Lovable and Cursor to prototype and build out a product.Our roles are blending into one another, and employers no longer need as many people to deliver the same amount of work.How we work is also changing. AI is simplifying core tasks along our workflows and automating cumbersome steps. Here's an example of how AI will transform UX Research:If you map your workflow, you'll find a similar transformation happening to your role. Humans will drive decision-making, but AI will increasingly inform those decisions.Maybe John Whalen's vision of product teams as AI-conductors is most appropriate: Maybe there will really be fewer UX researchers. Maybe they're more focused on this I'm calling sort of storytelling or conducting. I picture someone orchestrating these things.What you can do to enhance your futureJohn Whalen's story shows that you can be an industry expert who has written a respected book and led a successful practice, yet still need to adapt to the coming change. He's shifted from being a researcher to being a research technologist, one who delivers projects that used to take much more time and many distinct roles. This is similar to what Phillip Maggs said on episode 20 about becoming a design technolgist (Listen on Spotify | Apple).Recommendations to help you:1. Get closer to the decision-making processWe're all anxious about the economy. The viability of many businesses is at risk, and job security is no longer guaranteed. Our goal should be to bring confidence and certainty to our work. That means pinpointing what our internal and external stakeholders are most worried about and delivering solutions that address those.In the case of John Whalen and UX researchers, stakeholders had questioned the certainty of insights. With AI, John and others can deliver a 10x larger sample size in more markets.Similarly, designers, writers, PMs, and developers should use AI to deliver work more confidently. You're able to get more user feedback at every stage of the process. You can scale your work to be localized to more markets. You can automate tasks that are cumbersome and error-prone.None of this is to minimize being human-centred. But the industry has been questioning whether orgs have been perpetuating the illusion of user-centred design. Managing stakeholders' expectations puts you closer to the decision-making process and gives you the ability to dictate how good work happens.2. Challenge the assumptions that limit expectationsNew apps are released every month that bend our perception of what's possible. If you had collected a list of capabilities that you wished were possible, they probably exist now. Your job must be to push the work beyond the assumed limitations. To do this, you must test new apps and see if they can confidently overcome the limitations to your work. Explore new capabilities in the apps you already rely on. Experiment with combining applications that excel at key parts of your work.Being tied to a single legacy app is the worst thing you can do. You're hitching your future to that product's ability to be better than the dozens of other teams simultaneously trying to disrupt each other.3. Walk into every situation with clarity about your value drivers and superpowersWe can obsess over clients and our work, but understanding what you're exceptional at is more important than everything you deliver. We're much more than our performance reports and more capable than the best project we've ever worked on.It requires us to be self-critical about what drives us, what limits us, and where we can excel. For example, you might identify that:* You're envigorated by structuring and organizing * You're envigorated by hacking solutions and testing capabilities* You're exceptional at building alignment and support for initiatives* You're exceptional at taking on complexity and uncertaintyThese fundamental truths enable you to dictate your path to success better:* Who you should be working for* What types of projects and roles you should be working on* What unique capabilities you should be highlighting* Which principles you should use as a north star for leveraging AIIf this is a topic you'd like to me dive deeper into, please leave a comment or send a message.4. Remember that the future is not evenly distributedThe closer you get to the centre of tech, the pace of change will increase. The gravity of the situation is exciting for some and utterly exhausting for others. Find the orbit that best suits you.If you're reading this newsletter, you're clearly a future-centred thinker. You can leverage that in the centre of tech to push projects and productivity to new heights. You could also work in a traditionally slower industry —healthcare, government, legal, education— and affect more change by challenging long-held assumptions.All change is relative but what brings you joy and meaning is deeply personal. Embrace that.One last and important consideration…Erika Hall speaks the uncomfortable truths that we need to hear. Follow her.Some jobs simply aren't worth keeping. Some uses of AI are appalling. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit designofai.substack.com

Philip welcomes back designer and author of “Just Enough Research” Erika Hall to the show to discuss how “just enough” is a bigger concept than you think and how design and research play pivotal roles in how we shape and think about the world. The Drop – The segment of the show where Philip and his guest share tasty morsels of intellectual goodness and creative musings. Philip's Drop: River Sing Me Home – Eleanor Shearer (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/713326/river-sing-me-home-a-gma-book-club-pick-by-eleanor-shearer/) Erika's Drop: The Big Book of Cyberpunk edited by Jared Shurin (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/700576/the-big-book-of-cyberpunk-by-jared-shurin/) KEXP – FM (https://www.kexp.org/) Special Guest: Erika Hall.

In this episode of The UX Consultants Lounge, host Kyle Soucy sits down with two legendary figures in the UX and design consulting world: Erika Hall and Mike Monteiro, co-founders of Mule Design. Known for their honesty, wit, and willingness to challenge the status quo, Erika and Mike bring decades of experience—and a few well-placed truth bombs—to this candid conversation about UX consulting.Key Topics Covered:The Origin of Mule Design: Why they chose the name Mule and how it represents their approach to consulting—doing the work with intelligence, honesty, and integrity.Lessons from the Trenches: The challenges of running a consultancy, firing clients, dealing with contracts, and why you always need a good lawyer.The Current UX Climate: Why UX professionals are not to blame for recent industry turbulence, and the role speculative tech growth has played in overhiring and layoffs.Being “The Helpers”: Mike and Erika's advice on contributing to meaningful work—whether in civic tech, local organizations, or community projects—and embracing the value of problem-solving skills.Marketing and Business Development: The importance of putting yourself out there authentically. Erika shares how being consistent and unapologetic about your expertise helps clients find you, while Mike encourages consultants to embrace honesty and avoid sounding like machines.Why Authenticity Matters: A bold call to action for UX consultants to stop trying to fit in, stop being bland, and start telling hard truths—because that's what clients actually need.When asked to describe UX consulting in one word, Erika says, “Lost”, and Mike delivers a punch: “Dead.” Listen to the episode to hear their powerful explanations and why the future of consulting requires honesty, backbone, and humanity.Connect with Us:Host: Kyle Soucy: Website | LinkedinGuest: Erika Hall: Website | LinkedinGuest: Mike Monteiro: Website | Linkedin- - - - -Links and Resources Mentioned:Books by Erica and Mike: https://www.mulebooks.com/Erika's business model talk: The Business Model is the Grid (Confab)https://conffab.com/presentation/the-business-model-is-the-grid/Mike's infamous talk: “F** You, Pay Me”* (Creative Mornings) -https://youtu.be/jVkLVRt6c1U?si=YfFLEeoUe2EkpWmoSubmit a question or story: Have a question or topic that you'd like us to cover in a future episode and/or want to share an anonymous consulting story? Submit your questions and stories. Don't want to miss an episode? Be sure to sign up for the podcast newsletter.Thanks for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. I can't wait to have you back in the lounge for our next episode!

One of the most revered names in research and design, Erika Hall, Co-founder of Mule Design, joins us on this podcast to challenge the role of research as we know it. In this episode, she shares deep insights into the challenges of navigating research in complexity, and, on the backbone of systems thinking, offers thought-provoking perspectives addressing the growing tensions between investor-driven narratives and evidence-based practices. She brings forth some hard truths on how organizations cherry-pick data to justify decisions; and uses this to help us understand why a genuine research mindset is one where you're comfortable being proven wrong. This conversation is a powerful reminder that organizations need to embrace curiosity, to stay grounded and relevant. As the author of ‘Just Enough Research', Erika, has been a revered design consultant, specializing in asking the hard questions to find the right answers. She takes this episode to show that speed does not equate to better decision-making, emphasizing the need for organizations to focus on thoughtful alignment and genuine learning. She explores themes such as the performative nature of modern business practices, the disconnect between financial storytelling and real-world impact, the difference between delegation and democratization, and how organizations can navigate all this in an interconnected ecosystem. Tune in and learn how to ask the right questions and build an organization that's based on evidence. Key Highlights

Mein heutiger Gast, Mirjam de Klepper, ist eine unabhängige UX Researcher im Bereich Digital Health. Zuvor arbeitete sie für Clue und mySugr und hat sich auch schon einmal mit dem Start-up Vienna Skill Smiths in die Selbstständigkeit gewagt. Außerdem ist sie Teil des strategischen Beirats der uxcon vienna und wird die Hauptbühne dieser Veranstaltung im September moderieren. Ich spreche mit Mirjam über ihre Arbeit in Femtech und ihre Erfahrung mit Bootstrapping. Mirjam erzählt auch über die uxcon vienna und darüber, was ihr an der Organisation und Moderation des Events am besten gefällt. (02:07) Mirjams Weg zum UX Research(09:20) Von Bootstrapping und Vienna Skill Smiths(18:02) Herausforderungen der Selbstständigkeit(23:03)Die uxcon vienna als Communityevent(30:21) Mirjams Vorbereitung auf die Moderation LinksMirjams LinkedInMirjams Website RessourcenBücher: Invisible Women - Caroline Criado Perez Jane Against the World - Karen Blumenthal Slack Communities: ResearchOps  User Research Academy  Blogs und Newsletters: People Nerds - dscout Outlier by Dovetail Userweekly SponsorSponsor dieser Folge ist die uxcon vienna, eine Konferenz für alle, die sich für User Experience Research und Design interessieren.Die uxcon vienna findet am 13. und 14. September in der Expedithalle in Wien statt und es erwarten euch Vorträge und Workshops rund um das Thema User Experience auf höchstem Niveau.Mit dabei sind großartige Speaker wie beispielsweise Erika Hall und Debbie Levitt sowie weitere UX Größen von Google, Spotify und Meta. Das aktuellste Line-up, und alle weiteren Details findet ihr unter uxcon.at. Und das beste, mit dem Code „uxheroes“ bekommt ihr 10% Rabatt auf euer Ticket. Übrigens: Die uxcon bietet auch besondere Tickets für die an, die von Lay-offs betroffen sind. Es sind nur noch weniger als 100 Tickets verfügbar. Sichert euch also schnell eure Teilnahme. Ich hoffe, ihr fandet diese Folge nützlich. Wenn ihr auch die nächsten nicht verpassen wollt - abonniert UX Heroes doch auf Spotify, Apple oder eurem Lieblingspodcaster - ihr könnt uns dort auch bis zu 5 Sterne als Bewertung dalassen. Wenn Ihr Fragen oder Feedback habt, lasst uns doch eine Sprachnachricht auf ux-heroes.com da und wir beantworten sie mit etwas Glück in einer der nächsten Folgen. Ihr findet ihr mich auf LinkedIn unter Markus Pirker. Bis bald bei UX Heroes. UX Heroes ist ein Podcast von Userbrain.

Herzlich willkommen zu einer neuen Folge von UX Heroes. Heute haben wir gleich zwei Gäste: Manuela Risch und Martin Bender. Manuela ist UX Researcherin und unterstützt Projektteams mit Nutzerfeedback dabei, bessere Entscheidungen für die Produktentwicklung zu treffen. Nach dem Studium in Soziologie ist sie 2011 über Design Thinking in die Produktentwicklung gekommen. Sie hat 5 Jahre lang als Researcherin bei USEEDS° gearbeitet, einer UX Agentur in Berlin und ist seit 2017 freiberuflich tätig. Zu ihren Kunden gehören unter anderem Zalando oder Kununu. Martin ist seit über 16 Jahren im UX Bereich tätig und hat dabei schon verschiedene Rollen wie Interaction Designer, UX Consultant und Design Manager übernommen. Seit etwa 3 Jahren ist er ebenfalls freiberuflich unterwegs. In seinen Projekten versucht er so früh wie möglich mit User Research zu starten und live dabei zu sein, wenn Nutzer in ihrem Alltag und Kontext begleitet werden. Gemeinsam sind Manuela und Martin "About Jacky". About Jacky stellt die Research Ergebnisse in der Form von Video-Dokumentationen dar, bei denen Hintergrundgeschichten von Kund:innen mit dem Framework von Jobs to be done verbunden werden. Das Ergebnis sind Research Ergebnisse, die unter die Haut gehen und gleichzeitig die strategische Produktentwicklung über verschiedene Abteilungen hinweg vorantreiben. Ich spreche mit Manuela und Martin über den Unterschied von funktionalen und emotionalen Jobs to be done, wie sich Jobs to be done von Personas unterscheiden und wie man Research-Dokumentation erstellen kann, die auch Lust macht sich damit auch zu beschäftigen. Manuela und Martins Links⁠About Jackys LinkedIn⁠⁠Manuelas LinkedIn⁠⁠Martins LinkedIn⁠⁠About Jackys Website⁠⁠Manuelas Website⁠⁠Martins Website⁠ Ressourcen⁠The creative brain⁠⁠When coffee and kale compete - Alan Klement⁠ ⁠The job to be done playbook - Jim Kalbach⁠ ⁠The field study handbook - Jan Chipchase⁠ ⁠⁠ SponsorSponsor dieser Folge ist die ⁠UXCon Vienna,⁠ eine Konferenz für alle, die sich für User Experience Research und Design interessieren. Die UXCon Vienna findet am 13. und 14. September in der Expedithalle in Wien statt und es erwarten euch Vorträge und Workshops rund um das Thema User Experience auf höchstem Niveau. Mit dabei sind großartige Speaker wie beispielsweise Erika Hall und Debbie Levitt, sowie weitere UX Größen von Google, Spotify und Meta. Das aktuellste Line-up und alle weiteren Details findet ihr unter ⁠uxcon.at⁠. Mit dem Code „uxheroes“ bekommt ihr 10% Rabatt auf euer Ticket. Ich hoffe, ihr fandet diese Folge nützlich. Wenn ihr auch die nächsten nicht verpassen wollt - abonniert UX Heroes doch auf Spotify, Apple oder eurem Lieblingspodcaster - ihr könnt uns dort auch bis zu 5 Sterne als Bewertung dalassen. Wenn Ihr Fragen oder Feedback habt, lasst uns doch eine Sprachnachricht auf ⁠ux-heroes.com⁠ da und wir beantworten sie mit etwas Glück in einer der nächsten Folgen. Ihr findet ihr mich auf ⁠LinkedIn⁠ unter Markus Pirker. Bis bald bei UX Heroes. UX Heroes ist ein Podcast von ⁠Userbrain⁠.

Mike Monteiro sets fire to design orthodoxy, tech overlords, and his own Portuguese American history in this delightfully dark conversation. Highlights include: Why is it important to re-examine your beliefs? Why do you have nothing further to tell people? What shocked you about your Portuguese heritage? How is unionisation a positive thing for tech workers? Why do you want some people who listen to you to get angry? ====== Who is Mike Monteiro? Mike is the Design Director of Mule Design, the outspoken, outstanding, and slightly outrageous design consultancy that he co-founded with Erika Hall 21 years ago. During that time, Mike has made an outsized contribution to the field of design. He is the Co-Host the Voice of Design podcast and has authored several books, including “You're My Favourite Client”, “Ruined By Design”, and “Design Is a Job” - which is now in its 2nd edition! With a unmissable emphasis on ethics, Mike pulls-no-punches as he singles out the failings of design and the industries that employ it, while also illuminating the opportunities and challenges we face - as designers - to right the ship. His talks, like “How Designers Destroyed the World”, “How to Fight Fascism”, “My People Were In Shipping” and “Let's Destroy Silicon Valley” have raised more than a few eyebrows, heart rates and figurative pitch forks. ====== Liked what you heard and want to hear more? Subscribe and support the show by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts (or wherever you listen). Follow us on our other social channels for more great Brave UX content! YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/TheSpaceInBetween/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-space-in-between/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thespaceinbetw__n/ ====== Hosted by Brendan Jarvis: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendanjarvis/ Website: https://thespaceinbetween.co.nz/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/brendanjarvis/

Erika Hall reinforces the importance of being willing to be wrong, discusses how good user experiences can be bad, and calls on designers to be honest with themselves. Highlights include: ⭐ Do you ever wonder what it would be like to go in-house? ⭐ What's the truth about designers becoming more influential in business? ⭐ Have designers made the world a worst place over the past 30 years? ⭐ What organisational conditions support a culture of ‘just enough research'? ⭐ Who benefits from design not having agreed standards and ethics? ====== Who is Erika Hall? Erika is the Director of Strategy at Mule Design, the infamous design consultancy that she Co-Founded with Mike Monteiro, almost 21 years ago to the day. And they certainly have pulled no punches in presenting their perspectives. Erika's ability to take challenging subjects and to wrap them in her own signature kooky, cohesive, and compelling style has given many designers plenty of practical ‘in-the-trenches' training, as well as insightful 30,000 foot mind-food to chow down on. She is the author of “Just Enough Research” (now in it's second edition), a distillation of her extensive experience in design research, into an easy-to-follow guidebook that helps designers to think more critically about research and to wield it more expertly. Erika is also the author of “Conversational Design”, a book that helps designers and technologists to make their systems and products feel less robotic and more human. ====== Find Erika here: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikahall/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/mulegirl Website: https://www.muledesign.com/ Designing for the Triple Storyline: https://vimeo.com/351167991 ====== Liked what you heard and want to hear more? Subscribe and support the show by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts (or wherever you listen). Follow us on our other social channels for more great Brave UX content! YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/TheSpaceInBetween/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-space-in-between/  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thespaceinbetw__n/  ====== Hosted by Brendan Jarvis: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendanjarvis/ Website: https://thespaceinbetween.co.nz/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/brendanjarvis/

The Optimal Path is a podcast about product decision-making from the team at Maze. Each episode brings in a product expert and looks at the stories, ideas, and frameworks they use to achieve better product decision-making—and how you can do the same.You can follow Erika on Twitter (@mulegirl) or check out her articles on Medium.Resources mentioned:Conversational Design by Erika HallJust Enough Research by Erika HallDesigning for the Digital Age by Kim GoodwinBehave by Robert SapolskyFollow Maze on social media:Twitter: @mazedesignHQInstagram: @mazedesignHQLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mazedesignTo get notified when new episodes come out, subscribe at maze.co/podcast. See you next time!

Finally read Just Enough Research by Erika Hall,, which has been on my reading list for a while. Wow! I feel bad after reading this book: why didn't I read it when I started my UX design career!? I would avoid so many pitfalls and have many better outcomes if I followed some research suggestions from this book!If you need a just enough summary for this book, Erika summarised it in this awesome video [https://lnkd.in/gRQcm__S](https://lnkd.in/gRQcm__S)SS). Five things that blew my design mind from this book:1️⃣ Surveys are the most difficult research method of all.2️⃣ Test a competitor's product before you even put pencil to paper. Then test some sketches. And then test at every stage as much as you can.3️⃣ When blue-sky thinking meets reality, reality always wins.4️⃣ The first rule of user research: never ask anyone what they want.(You risk the scope of your ideas being limited by the imaginations of others. )

In this conversation, Philip talks with Erika Hall, cofounder of Mule Design Studio and the author of Just Enough Research and Conversational Design. They discuss the power of asking better questions, the importance of design research, and what research tells us about the world. The Drop – The segment of the show where Philip and his guest share tasty morsels of intellectual goodness and creative musings. Philip's Drop: Teedra Moses – Complex Simplicity (https://open.spotify.com/album/5ds3BcAZoYcGl8H1yMbnHg?si=JHesFk1uSbOFOGsyPFxKgw) Erika's Drop: Warrior (HBO Max) (https://www.hbomax.com/series/urn:hbo:series:GXSySgQ5Pe06olAEAAAJr) Ellen Allien (https://www.ellenallien.de/) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Allien

最近读了 Erika Hall 的 Just Enough Research，这本书在我的阅读清单上已经有一段时间了。哇！读完这本书感觉很糟糕：为什么我在刚开始我的 UX 设计生涯时没有读它呢！？如果我遵循本书中的一些研究建议，我可以避开很多职业陷阱，并成为更好的设计师！ 这本书里最让我觉得脑洞大开的五个要点： 1️⃣ 问卷调查是最困难的研究方法。 2️⃣ 在你把铅笔放在纸上之前，先测试竞争对手的产品。然后测试一些草图。然后尽可能多地在每个阶段进行测试。 3️⃣ 当空想遇到现实时，现实总是会赢。 4️⃣ 用户研究的第一条规则：永远不要问任何人他们想要什么。（你的想法范围可能会受到他人想象力的限制。） 5️⃣ 用户调查时的引语通常是用户研究中最强大、最有效的收获。 注意：本期节目为全英文，如果您对设计、职场、效率提升的英文内容感兴趣，请订阅我的播客“Bear Academy”或关注我的YouTube频道(BearTalk)。 Just Enough Research - A Must Read Book For All Designers! Finally read Just Enough Research by Erika Hall,, which has been on my reading list for a while. Wow! I feel bad after reading this book: why didn't I read it when I started my UX design career!? I would avoid so many pitfalls and have many better outcomes if I followed some research suggestions from this book! If you need a just enough summary for this book, Erika summarised it in this awesome video https://lnkd.in/gRQcm__S (https://lnkd.in/gRQcm__S)). Five things that blew my design mind from this book: 1️⃣ Surveys are the most difficult research method of all. 2️⃣ Test a competitor's product before you even put pencil to paper. Then test some sketches. And then test at every stage as much as you can. 3️⃣ When blue-sky thinking meets reality, reality always wins. 4️⃣ The first rule of user research: never ask anyone what they want.(You risk the scope of your ideas being limited by the imaginations of others. ) 5️⃣ Quotes that represent the perspectives of research participants are often the most powerful, portable output of user research. 关于： 「狗熊有话说」播客是由 大狗熊 于 2012 年创办的独立中文知识型播客节目，以阅读、科技、旅行和个人成长为主要话题内容，是 iTunes 中国区长期推荐播客，被苹果 iTunes 评选为「2013 年度精选最佳社会与文化播客」。 收听： 在苹果 Podcasts、Spotify、新浪播客、网易云音乐 、喜马拉雅FM 和 荔枝FM 等音频播客平台中可以搜索"狗熊有话说"并关注收听； 直接于【狗熊有话说】播客官网 voice.beartalking.com (http://voice.beartalking.com)在线收听； 在微信公号文章中可以直接点击音频按钮收听； 支持： 如果你认可大狗熊的节目，请向朋友们推荐这档节目，邀请朋友们关注公众号“狗熊有话说”； 大狗熊会在YouTube上更新更多关于设计、效率与学习类的内容，请在YouTube订阅频道 http://www.youtube.com/c/BearTalkVideo 如果喜欢英文内容，您也可以在这里订阅大狗熊的英文邮件email.beartalking.com/signup (https://email.beartalking.com/signup)，不定期收获学习经验分享。 联系： 微 信：bearbigtalk（公众号） 网 站：beartalking.com (http://www.beartalking.com) 邮 箱：bear@beartalking.com (mailto:bear@beartalking.com) 微 博：@i大狗熊 (http://www.weibo.com/bearbig) If like this one, why don't you subscribe to Bear? Every post, to your inbox. 100% true, and always keep it real. And of course, no spam, ever. Go ahead, click email.beartalking.com/signup to subscribe.

In this episode, I spoke with Erika Hall. Co-founder of Mule Design, speaker, and author extraordinaire. We talked a lot about Erika's books, Just Enough Research and Conversational Design, computers, a new book in the works, and much more!. Intro/Outro music graciously given permission to use called, "Settle In" by Homer Gaines. Transcripts can be found at: https://toddl.dev/podcast/transcripts/hall Show Notes: https://muledesign.com - Mule Design https://twitter.com/mulegirl - Erika on Twitter https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikahall/ - Erika on LinkedIn https://medium.com/@mulegirl - Erika on Medium https://abookapart.com/products/just-enough-research - Just Enough Research on A Book Apart https://abookapart.com/products/conversational-design - Conversational Design on A Book Apart --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/frontendnerdery/support

What do the terms “Black,” “African American,” “BIPOC” and “Latinx” mean to people? And how can workplaces take into consideration how these terms are used and perceived? Dr. Erika Hall, assistant professor of organization and management and faculty adviser at The Roberto C. Goizueta Business & Society Institute, joins the podcast to discuss her research on racial terminology and the implications these words have.

What do the terms “Black,” “African American,” “BIPOC” and “Latinx” mean to people? And how can workplaces take into consideration how these terms are used and perceived? Dr. Erika Hall, assistant professor of organization and management and faculty adviser at The Roberto C. Goizueta Business & Society Institute, joins the podcast to discuss her research on racial terminology and the implications these words have.

What do the terms “Black,” “African American,” “BIPOC” and “Latinx” mean to people? And how can workplaces take into consideration how these terms are used and perceived? Dr. Erika Hall, assistant professor of organization and management and faculty adviser at The Roberto C. Goizueta Business & Society Institute, joins the podcast to discuss her research on racial terminology and the implications these words have.

I don't care who does the work; I do care that we solve the problem! That was one of the great quotes from Jonathon talking about what content design is and why it's so important to think about it. In this episode, the Product Bakers and Jonathon discussed how to establish content design in a company and what positive impact it has on the UX and success of a product/business.

Join Millani and Erika Hall as they return with part two on User Research! With decades at the helm of Mule Design Studio and two books under her name (“Conversational Design” and “Just Enough Research”), Erika provides us with her take on how to develop a sensible yet robust research practice that will keep your audience's realities front and centre in your organization's vision. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/voicethispod/message

In this episode, Erika Hall - author of "Just Enough Research", "Conversational Design" and co-founder of Mule Design Studio – joins Millani to examine why it's important to take a moment to look beyond the technology and focus on your audience and the value you're providing them. Topics include leveraging minimalist design to empower constantly connected users, where humanist design principles belong in business, and the constant competition for users' attention that can follow you into bed, at work, and yes, even into your shower. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/voicethispod/message

On today's episode Steve is joined by Erika Hall, author of Conversational Design and Just Enough Research. Purchase Erika's books online at https://abookapart.com/products/just-enough-research

Settling into Season 2 of our podcast, we have the great Erika Hall joining us for an awesome episode, where we talk about the importance of research and how you can benefit from including it in your product business. We'll also be jumping into the Pack Delorean to take a leap back in time, to discuss how Erika got started in the design industry and what first got her interested in the subject of research. Erika is Co-founder and Director of Strategy at Mule, a consultancy which focuses on helping organisations make better, more evidence-based decisions.She is also a prolific writer and the author of Just Enough Research, now in its second edition, and Conversational Design, both from A Book Apart. She writes about topics that challenge the conventional wisdom of the field, which encourage designers to think more deeply about the implications of their work.Packed with practical advice + knowledge bombs aplenty…

Just Enough Research author Erika Hall and I discuss the pitfalls of polling, the need for humility in research, James Baldwin, and why design needs to interrogate capitalism. And that's just for starters.

In which Peter and Jesse talk to strategic design and research consultant Erika Hall of Mule Design, learn about how "the business model is the new grid," why most design is simply just styling, and the importance of asking questions.

Join Hejoma Garcia and Erika Hall as they chat about our upcoming Broker Power Series, "Real Estate and The Economy Today" on September 8, 2020!  This series will discuss the future of the economy as it relates to real estate given the effects of the COVID-19 Pandemic with a focus on Central MA and will be joined by Lawrence Yun!  Yun is the Chief Economist and Senior Vice President of Research at the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS®.  Click here to register for this event.

On this weeks show we talk about 3 of our favourite knowledge bomb articles on our shiny new blog. We'll take you on a journey from The Karate Kid and Design Sprints, via Erika Hall's approach to Just Enough Research with a slice of failed Coca Cola in the mix, before we take a wander through the angst ridden halls of Shermer High illinois during the summer of 1984, as we join The Breakfast club to talk about Cognitive Diversity. Phew!Buckle up and get your reading glasses out from the back of the sofa, knowledge bombs deployed…Let's do this!—————Pack Articles:1. Is the Karate Kid to Blame for the Design Sprint?https://www.ridewiththepack.com/is-karate-kid-to-blame-for-the-design-sprint/2. Just Enough Research - The Pack Wayhttps://www.ridewiththepack.com/just-enough-research-the-pack-way/3. Cognitive Diversity: Don't you forget about mehttps://www.ridewiththepack.com/cognitive-diversity-dont-you-forget-about-me/—————Karate Kid - The Training Montage:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zamE9cvC6u0Just enough research book by Erika Hall:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Just-Enough-Research-Erika-Hall/dp/1937557103Coca Cola's failed product - C2:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola_C2Simple minds - Breakfast club soundtrack:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gLVqjIvokcRebel Ideas book by Matthew Syed:https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rebel-Ideas-Power-Diverse-Thinking/dp/1473613914

On today's episode, I sat down with Nikki Anderson, User Research Lead at Zalando and Founder of User Research Academy. Nikki started her user research career about 7 years ago, with a foundation in quantitative research but has since shifted focus to specialize in qualitative user research where Nikki has worked in B2B, B2C, B2B2C and has both worked as a freelancer and worked in corporate settings. After having started her career in New York, Nikki has since moved to Germany where Zalando is based. With such a robust and diverse background in user research Nikki had a ton of great advice and insight to share. Here's what we discussed: Some of the biggest misconceptions of user research Why quant or qual data alone is not enough to make decisions The trust cost of doing user research and the cost of not doing it Low cost ways to source user feedback What Nikki has learned throughout her career that she wants other user researchers to know The difference between user research and UX design Why planning and purpose are essential to the value of research How to influence executives to care about user research What a great partnership looks like between user research and product management in setting priority for what you build How to know if you're doing user research right in a well-resourced company Ways to get scrappy if you're a user research team of one How Product Managers can do user research on their own Here's the resources: Google's Heart Framework Podcasts: Awkward Silences, Dollars to Donuts & Mixed Methods Books: Just Enough Research by Erika Hall; Practical Empathy by Indi Young; Quantifying the User Experience by Jeff Sauros Recommended resources for user researchers Important concepts, processes, and terminology User Research Academy --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/productmanagementlessons/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/productmanagementlessons/support

Visual storytelling is a big theme with the Lean Into Art podcast. Also: working with what you have as a storyteller to do a myriad of things that go with not just the creative process but also presenting your creative work in a useful and usable way. Jerzy and Rob talk about useful tools to consider using even if you’re not a User Experience (UX) designer. As we make and share our works we often encounter situations where we wonder if we could have shared it better - especially when that’s not our main focus for making a story, game, or other product. Join us for an exploration of some handy tools from the world of skills in UX. Sponsors for this episode Amazon Academy This Panda Needs You Lean Into Art Workshops Thanks to our top Patreon supporters Jodels Pox Gail Buschman Nate Marcel Sarah Loutfi Mike White Links mentioned in this episode LIA Cast 36 - Preparedness, Pt 2 LIA Cast 86 - Character Writing is UI/UX Design? LIA Cast 116 - Collaborating on Your Project LIA Cast 198 - Using the Hero's Journey via Interpreting and Improvising LIA Cast 222 - Tomorrow's Skill or Feature LIA Cast 241 - Launching a Product Just Enough Research, by Erika Hall Connect with Jerzy and Rob Jerzy on Instagram Rob on Instagram Lean Into Art on Twitter

This episode was brought to you by This is Doing - Design & Innovation Online Learning In this episode, Gerry McGovern speaks with Erika Hall from Mule Design. Gerry discusses with Erika if we've ruined web design, and if we have, what do we do about it? https://muledesign.com/speaking/erika-hall Buy Gerry McGovern's new book 'World Wide Waste' Support This is HCD by becoming a Premium subscriber. This is HCD Podcast Network EthnoPod with Jay Hasbrouck Bringing Design Closer with Gerry Scullion ProdPod with Adrienne Tan Getting Started in Design with Gerry Scullion Power of Ten with Andy Polaine The Big Remote with Gerry Scullion and Andy Polaine Moments of Change with Melanie Rayment Talking Shop with Andy Polaine and Gerry Scullion Decoding Culture with Dr. John Curran World Wide Waste with Gerry McGovern Global Jams Podcast with Adam Lawrence and Markus Hormess Connect with This is HCD Follow This is HCD us on Twitter Follow This is HCD on Instagram Sign up for our newsletter (we have lots of design giveaways!) Join the practitioner community on This is HCD Slack Channel Read articles on our This is HCD Network on Medium   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode was brought to you by This is Doing - Design & Innovation Online Learning In this episode, Gerry McGovern speaks with Erika Hall from Mule Design. Gerry discusses with Erika if we've ruined web design, and if we have, what do we do about it? https://muledesign.com/speaking/erika-hall Buy Gerry McGovern's new book 'World Wide Waste' Support This is HCD by becoming a Premium subscriber. This is HCD Podcast Network EthnoPod with Jay Hasbrouck Bringing Design Closer with Gerry Scullion ProdPod with Adrienne Tan Getting Started in Design with Gerry Scullion Power of Ten with Andy Polaine The Big Remote with Gerry Scullion and Andy Polaine Moments of Change with Melanie Rayment Talking Shop with Andy Polaine and Gerry Scullion Decoding Culture with Dr. John Curran World Wide Waste with Gerry McGovern Global Jams Podcast with Adam Lawrence and Markus Hormess Connect with This is HCD Follow This is HCD us on Twitter Follow This is HCD on Instagram Sign up for our newsletter (we have lots of design giveaways!) Join the practitioner community on This is HCD Slack Channel Read articles on our This is HCD Network on Medium   Support the show: https://thisishcdnetwork.supercast.tech

Our guest this week is Erika Hall. Erika is the co-founder of Mule Design based in San Francisco and the author of Just Enough Research and Conversational Design. You can find her on Medium and Twitter @mulegirl. For show notes visit: http://kk.org/cooltools/erika-hall-co-founder-of-mule-design/

Listen in on the latest episode with Erika Hall, Mike DeLuca, Kathy McSweeney, and Leslie Storrs as they talk about the "RACM Awards Ceremony: Why You Should Get Involved".

Six years have passed since Erika Hall published Just Enough Research. Recently she’s released an updated second edition. We took the opportunity to talk to her about her book and research. What exactly is research and how do we know we’ve done enough of it? We talk about making sure you’ve got clear business goals... The post #229 Just enough research with Erika Hall appeared first on UX Podcast.

UX-radio.com is a podcast about Information Architecture, User Experience, and Design. Hosts Lara Fedoroff and Chris Chandler talk with industry experts with the purpose to educate, inspire and share resources. In this episode, Erika talks about the nuances of valuable research. Erika Hall is the co-founder and Director of Strategy at Mule. She is an acclaimed speaker and author of Just Enough Research and Conversational Design, both from A Book Apart. Erika loves helping people overcome the often invisible organizational barriers to doing good work.

Join us for this week's Growth on the Go with Berkeley Wlodarczak, Tracey Fiorelli, and Erika Hall on "Setting Success For the Decade Ahead".

Show notesJust enough research | BookRuined by design by Mike Monteiro | BookLemonade's AI chatbot, MayaUser zoom | ToolUser testing.com | ToolJared Spool in Writers in Tech  | PodcastErika Hall on TwitterOur UX writing newsletter

Good friend Erika Hall joins the show to talk about the second edition of Just Enough Research. We talk about the methods so many people get so badly wrong.

In today's episode, Menaka Chandrasekhar, Product Design Lead at PropertyGuru, talks to us about her methodologies and processes on a personal level and a team level. You’ll get some valuable advice on building a design skill set, and you’ll hear Menaka’s thoughts on what the next big trend in the design community will be.   Credits to Ling Jun for the podcast cover art. Check out her Dribbble page - https://dribbble.com/____Lingjun____  References:  Menaka on Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/designgeekme/?originalSubdomain=sg  Conversational Design by Erika Hall - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38393096-conversational-design  Notion App - https://www.notion.so  Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products by Nir Eyal - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22668729-hooked  Product Tribes on Slack - http://www.product-tribes.com/index.html  

Every product manager builds things for customers, and knowing just who your customers are-what their needs, hopes, desires, frustrations and goals are-is the bedrock of all the work we do. But how do you go about learning that? And how do you know when you've learned enough and can get back to building? Well, does has Erika Hall have the book for you!  Listen in as Sandi MacPherson and I dive into Just Enough Research and discuss how we've used the tools and tactics presented there to help us get the best things to customers. We talked through the Who, What, When, Where, How, and Why of user research.

Ramblings of a Designer podcast is a weekly design news and discussion podcast hosted by Adan Zepeda (twit: @adanzepeda, insta: @adanz.designs) and Terri Rodriguez-Hong (@flaxenink, insta: flaxenink.design). Send us feedback! ramblingsofadesignerpod@gmail.com, Support us on Patreon! patreon.com/ramblingsofadesigner   This week we talk about: Legendary type foundry Monotype sold to private equity for $825 million https://www.fastcompany.com/90382770/legendary-type-foundry-monotype-sold-to-private-equity-for-825-million Cinemaps http://www.andrewdegraff.com/moviemaps Creativity’s Outer Limits https://www.apple.com/today/feature/augmentedrealities/ MONOCLE ON DESIGN Meeting Stefan Sagmeister https://monocle.com/radio/shows/monocle-on-design/407/ "Defining Design Generalists Exploring the skill set of an underrated superpower" https://airbnb.design/defining-design-generalists/?utm_source=UX+Links&utm_campaign=a794c541e0-UX_COLLECTIVE_2019_07_27_11_55&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_44948c461b-a794c541e0-106061197 Erika Hall on Why Surveys [Almost Always] Suck https://www.userinterviews.com/blog/erika-hall-on-why-surveys-almost-always-suck?&utm_source=uxdc&utm_medium=slack https://www.producthunt.com/posts/apple-card?utm_source=browser_notification&utm_medium=browser_notification&utm_campaign=apple-card  

Surveys are everywhere. They bombard us at every turn, and most of them aren't even helping teams learn what they need to know. We chatted with Erika Hall, co-founder of Mule Design and author of Just Enough Research about why most surveys suck and what we can do about it. Check out our blog post about this episode here

Many of the conversational design principles are based on the idea of the cooperative principle, which states people work together cooperatively in conversation. The principle was defined by Linguist Paul Grice, and it is supported by four conversational maxims, with a fifth being added from linguist, Robin Lakoff. These simple maxims make the foundation for much of voice design. Erika Hall joins the show to give a detailed look at these maxims, which are the Maxim of Quality, Quantity, Relation, Manner and Politeness, and you'll learn how to apply these ideas into your conversational interfaces and experiences. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/design-for-voice/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/design-for-voice/support

Kevin M. Hoffman, author of Meeting Design, discusses the power of culture in our organizations. What shapes culture? What transcends cultures and works across contexts? What levers can we pull to influence our cultures, regardless of title? ----- Show notes Kevin M. Hoffman http://www.kevinmhoffman.com/ Meeting Design http://www.rosenfeldmedia.com/books/meeting-design/ Erika Hall's tweet about engineering culture: https://twitter.com/mulegirl/status/1092848898819805186 Sarah Nelson's Tweet on Influence https://twitter.com/sarahbeee/status/931591644876496896 Culture mapping http://www.xplaner.com/culturemap/ Blowhard Syndrome http://xuhulk.tumblr.com/post/110549967516/stop-blowhard-syndrome Gov.uk https://www.gov.uk/ USDS https://www.usds.gov/ 18f https://18f.gsa.gov/ Edgar Schien and Humble Inquiry https://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty/directory/edgar-h-schein https://www.amazon.com/Humble-Inquiry-Gentle-Instead-Telling/dp/1609949811/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549457317&sr=8-1&keywords=humble+inquiry --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/uxlikeus/message

Visual storytelling is a big theme with the Lean Into Art podcast. Also: working with what you have as a storyteller to do a myriad of things that go with not just the creative process but also presenting your creative work in a useful and usable way. Jerzy and Rob talk about useful tools to consider using even if you’re not a User Experience (UX) designer. As we make and share our works we often encounter situations where we wonder if we could have shared it better - especially when that’s not our main focus for making a story, game, or other product. Join us for an exploration of some handy tools from the world of skills in UX. Sponsors for this episode Amazon Academy This Panda Needs You Lean Into Art Workshops Thanks to our top Patreon supporters Brandon Dayton dee Juusan Espree Devora Jesse Kauffman Ben Odgren Links mentioned in this episode LIA Cast 36 - Preparedness, Pt 2 LIA Cast 86 - Character Writing is UI/UX Design? LIA Cast 116 - Collaborating on Your Project LIA Cast 198 - Using the Hero's Journey via Interpreting and Improvising LIA Cast 222 - Tomorrow's Skill or Feature LIA Cast 241 - Launching a Product Just Enough Research, by Erika Hall Connect with Jerzy and Rob Jerzy on Instagram Rob on Instagram Lean Into Art on Twitter

This Week's Announcements:We place a high priority on our Growth Groups because we believe that spiritual growth and life change happens best in the context of a small group. Growth groups provide the opportunity to study God's Word together, share life stories, take part in local service projects and care for one another in relevant ways. As we start this new sermon series, we are starting new Growth Groups. contact Erika Hall at erikah@ljpres.org for more information, or to find a group that works for you.On the four Sundays in October, Rev. Scott Mitchell will present a mental health workshop titled, “Walking with God Through Mental Health's Ages & Stages”. The class will be from 8:45 to 9:45am, in room LC3, and will help you better understand and handle the variety of mental health and faith issues at the various ages and stages of life. Contact Rev. Scott Mitchell at scottm@ljpres.org for more information or with any questions.The LJPC concert series kicks off on Sunday, October 14th, at 4pm, in the Sanctuary. Come be awed and inspired by three incredible musicians whose artistry is well beyond their years. Our 3rd Annual Young Artists Showcase will feature the Musical Merit Foundation of San Diego's scholarship winners: Anne Liu, pianist; Eden Tremayne, soprano and Stefan Wendel, harpist.

This week's announcements:We place a high priority on our Growth Groups because we believe that spiritual growth and life change happens best in the context of a small group. Growth groups provide the opportunity to study God's Word together, share life stories, take part in local service projects and care for one another in relevant ways. As we start this new sermon series, we are starting new Growth Groups. contact Erika Hall at erikah@ljpres.org for more information, or to find a group that works for you.On the four Sundays in October, Rev. Scott Mitchell will present a mental health workshop titled, “Walking with God Through Mental Health's Ages & Stages”. The class will be from 8:45 to 9:45am, in room LC3, and will help you better understand and handle the variety of mental health and faith issues at the various ages and stages of life. Contact Rev. Scott Mitchell at scottm@ljpres.org for more information or with any questions.The LJPC concert series kicks off on Sunday, October 14th, at 4pm, in the Sanctuary. Come be awed and inspired by three incredible musicians whose artistry is well beyond their years. Our 3rd Annual Young Artists Showcase will feature the Musical Merit Foundation of San Diego's scholarship winners: Anne Liu, pianist; Eden Tremayne, soprano and Stefan Wendel, harpist.

Episode 190 is a link show. James and Per discuss two articles that have grabbed their attention. Article one is Thinking in triplicate by Erika Hall. “Because so much value inheres in a digital intermediary, the interface/interaction design is the business. Any designer only thinking of the customer or user experience is doing at most a third... The post #190 Thinking in triplicate appeared first on UX Podcast.

Co-founder of Mule Design, Erika Hall, joins Christopher to talk about her new book, Conversational Design, and also about how Mule Design works with teams to communicate and design better and more collaboratively.

Co-founder of Mule Design, Erika Hall, joins Christopher to talk about her new book, Conversational Design, and also about how Mule Design works with teams to communicate and design better and more collaboratively.

Co-founder of Mule Design, Erika Hall, joins Christopher to talk about her new book, Conversational Design, and also about how Mule Design works with teams to communicate and design better and more collaboratively.

When Gmail says, “It seems like you forgot to attach a file,” that precise phrasing is the result of careful deliberation by a design team. It's one example Erika Hall gives in her book Conversational Design. She explains her work as “designing with words” rather than literary writing, and asserts that collaboration by designers, writers, and engineers is required for meaningful user experiences. Listener questions address previous episodes about Duplex and, our favorite scapegoat, blockchain. Show Notes Welcome (0:12) Purchase Conversational Design by Erika Hall on A Book Apart (0:30) Purchase Conversational Design by Erika Hall on Amazon (0:30) Netflix's company culture (0:37)  Patty McCord's slide deck: “You should try to build a great company to be from.” Discussion with Erika Hall (2:41) Erika Hall, cofounder of Mule Design Studio The importance of non-verbal signs in communication (12:54) Lightweight prototyping of communication interaction as part of design process and concept of minimal viable conversation (17:18) How does reading poetry help someone become a conversational designer? (19:08) William Carlos Williams: The Red Wheelbarrow (19:21) Should it ever be ok for a computer to pretend to be a human? (21:49) All the ways to interact with Amazon: “Amazon's Quest for Global Domination” (video, Wall Street Journal) (24:33) Rev. Walter Ong, Jesuit teacher and scholar of language (New York Times) (26:11) Listener questions (28:47) You came out strongly against Duplex. Can you explain why for someone who would like to be sympathetic to your viewpoint? I feel like I missed chapter 1-5 on what is so wrong with what they did. (29:03) Episode 29 of the All Turtles Podcast featured a discussion on Duplex. (29:03) I don't understand the reference to blockchain in episode 28. Can you explain? (31:00) Episode 28 of the All Turtles Podcast featured the taxonomy discussion (31:03) We want to hear from you Please send us your comments, suggested topics, and questions for future episodes: Email: hello@all-turtles.com Twitter: @allturtlesco with hashtag #askAT For more from All Turtles, follow us on Twitter, and subscribe to our newsletter on our website.

This podcast is based on article to be published in Communicator. Communicator is the authoritative, award winning, journal for UK technical communicators.  Each year, Cherryleaf is one of the companies in technical communications that makes predictions for the upcoming 12 months. In this episode, we look further into the future, to see what the future holds for technical communication. We look at: What is likely to stay the same? From multichannel to omnichannel Augmented and mixed reality How do we get from here to there? Links: Tomorrow's World - Office of the Future 16 April 1969 – BBC  A Content Strategy Conversation — Noz Urbina Content-Strategie als Service Design The Content Strategy Podcast. Ep. 1: Erika Hall and Conversational Design Time to move to multi-sourcing Introducing the era of mixed reality thyssenkrupp – bringing new vision to elevator maintenance with Microsoft HoloLens Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It? New York Times.  Content Modelling: A Master Skill SPFE.info Cynefin framework email: info@cherryleaf.com Become a better technical communicator by subscribing to the Cherryleaf newsletter www.cherryleaf.com   Sponsored : MadWorld Europe 2018 Conference MadCap Software product overview  

When we allow artificial intelligence to impersonate humans, what kind of precedent does that set? It's one of the questions that was raised after Google unveiled Duplex, and in this episode our hosts consider what the implications of this technology might be. They also ask whether there should be new rules for grammar and speech when speaking with machines. Listener questions include the upcoming book club discussion and our favorite podcasts. Show Notes Welcome (0:11) Laurel or Yanny? (Video) (1:05) Discussion: Google Duplex (1:22) Google I/O, the company's annual developer conference (1:35) Sundar Pichai demoing Duplex (video) (1:56) Google's statement after Duplex controversy (4:48): "We understand and value the discussion around Google Duplex -- as we've said from the beginning, transparency in the technology is important. We are designing this feature with disclosure built-in, and we'll make sure the system is appropriately identified. What we showed at I/O was an early technology demo, and we look forward to incorporating feedback as we develop this into a product." -- May 11, 2018 Pichai's blog post about Duplex (5:10) Microsoft's Speech Devices SDK demo (video) (6:13) Discussion: How does All Turtles define practical AI? (15:08) IBM's 5 attributes of useful AI (18:18) Discussion: levels of formality for speaking to an AI (23:15) Listener questions When will you be airing the book club discussion on Erika Hall's Conversational Design? (29:00) Answer: Episode 31! What are your favorite podcasts? (30:15) The Daily, a daily news podcast from the New York Times (30:29) Reply All, a podcast about the internet (31:03) Pod Save America, a podcast about politics from former aides to President Obama (31:21) Reveal, a podcast from the Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX (32:31) Reveal's money laundering episode (32:41) Desert Oracle Radio (32:58) We want to hear from you Please send us your comments, suggested topics, and questions for future episodes: Email: hello@all-turtles.com Twitter: @allturtlesco with hashtag #askAT For more from All Turtles, follow us on Twitter, and subscribe to our newsletter on our website.

erika-book https://uploads.fireside.fm/images/8/8902c1c9-f2fa-4d62-89a4-5ff690afde35/zDo6qwTo.jpg Erika Hall, the author of the new book Conversational Design (https://abookapart.com/products/conversational-design), sits down to talk about how she got into doing triathlons and all the work it took to get there.

Imagine if you could skip college and learn to program for free. Kwame Yamgnane, co-founder and managing director of 42 Silicon Valley, joins this episode to describe how his school's tuition-free approach to coding instruction is disrupting higher education. Your hosts also examine the importance of physical dexterity when considering AI for IKEA furniture assembly and Tesla's manufacturing process. And drumroll, please: We announce our next book club selection. (Hint: It's not Norse Mythology.) Show Notes Welcome (0:45) All Turtles Book Club selection (1:48) Conversational Design by Erika Hall (available for purchase at A Book Apart) Join the book discussion on the All Turtles subreddit. Discussion: AI, physical dexterity, and robotic automation (3:14) Robots assembling IKEA furniture (The Economist) (3:21) Elon Musk admits to excessive automation at Tesla factory (Futurism) (5:10) Elon Musk says that “humans are underrated” (The Next Web) (5:40) Video of trained eagles taking down drones (YouTube) (7:00) Video of drone dexterity from ETH Zurich (YouTube) (7:12) Guest: Kwame Yamgnane, managing director and co-founder of 42 Silicon Valley (12:02) 42 Silicon Valley (12:08) 42 Paris (20:40) 42 Silicon Valley admissions (22:36) Documentary series Foundation about Station F, and part 1 of our analysis (31:07) Listener questions (36:54) Is Israel on All Turtles' roadmap? Why did you choose Paris and Tokyo as the next locations (other than San Francisco) for All Turtles offices? (37:08) I was wondering if you have an internship program, and if not, whether you plan to take on interns in the future? (40:01) We want to hear from you Please send us your comments, suggested topics, and questions for future episodes: Email: hello@all-turtles.com Twitter: @allturtlesco with hashtag #askAT For more from All Turtles, follow us on Twitter, and subscribe to our newsletter on our website.  

Public discourse around artificial intelligence continues to focus on self-driving cars, especially in the wake of fatal crashes. Yet data shows autonomous vehicles to be significantly safer than those controlled by people. One day, perhaps soon, the notion of human drivers will seem as absurd as child chimney sweeps. This episode also includes a rant about security questions, “advice to politicians” about immigration, and listener questions about All Turtles in Mexico City and Spot's research. Show Notes Welcome (0:46) Book club nominations (1:10) Vote for your book club choice on our Twitter poll: Blaise's pick: Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman (1:16)  Jessica's pick: Conversational Design by Erika Hall (1:58) Phil's pick: Norse Mythology by Neil Gaiman (2:27) Rant: The problem with security questions (3:16) Time to kill security questions -- or answer them with lies (Wired) Discussion: Self-driving cars and AI (6:36) How a self-driving Uber killed a pedestrian in Arizona (New York TImes) (6:41) Tesla: Autopilot was on during deadly Mountain View crash (San Jose Mercury News) (6:47) Advice to politicians: tariffs and immigration (17:16) Trump announces tariff on Chinese imports (CNN) (17:42) Trump wants to build a 30-ft-high wall at Mexican border (CNBC) (17:44) Coding school in Mexico for students who were pushed out of the U.S. (Wall Street Journal) (17:57) Coding bootcamps in Mexico (EdSurge) (17:57) Listener questions (26:57) The Mexican Entrepreneurship Association recommended you as the best incubator for AI projects. Do you cover Mexico City? If so, can one work remotely? (27:03) Mexican Entrepreneurship Association (28:29) Does Spot plan to make its research publicly available? It would be interesting to read statistics about harassment by industry, gender, age, etc. Whatever (if anything) is appropriate to share. (29:05) Episode 15: Conversation with Spot's Dr. Julia Shaw (29:07) Spot (31:00) We want to hear from you Please send us your comments, suggested topics, and questions for future episodes: Email: hello@all-turtles.com Twitter: @allturtlesco with hashtag #askAT For more from All Turtles, follow us on Twitter, and subscribe to our newsletter on our website.  

Kristina talks with research and information design expert Erika Hall about the art of conversational design and the challenges—and opportunities—of how we use language to interact with users in online contexts.

In Episode 9, we talk inclusion riders, the importance of pronouns, and how all of us can better support folks from marginalized communities. If there’s one thing we’re sure of, it’s that we’ve got to stick together—and that means supporting and centering the voices of folks with less opportunity and privilege than us. In this episode, we talk with designer and educator Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen about how listening, and finding community, can help us do just that. They also share how parenting shaped their career path, what it was like to come out at work, and why they see allyship as something we practice, not something we have. Listen up. > If I show up at work as myself, then I’m in a state of being in my greatest power. And I think if you can find a workplace where they want you to be there in your greatest power, then like, yeah, show up. This is how you do it. > > —Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen, designer and educator Here’s what we get into—and of course, there’s a full transcript, too. Show notes If you didn’t catch the Oscars, don’t worry—we start the show by filling you in on our favorite parts. Of note: (Ahem) Janelle Monáe’s pantsuit (photo) Jordan Peele’s win for Get Out and the amazing fan art he posts on Instagram Frances McDormand’s acceptance speech mentioning inclusion riders (hell yeah)… …which we go on to explore: Did you know Justin Bieber requires that his dressing room be filled with carnations? Riders can be wild. More important: Nicole Sanchez writes about taking inclusion riders beyond Hollywood and into fields like tech—and apply them to everything from speaking gigs to job offers. Yep. We also touch on Lara Hogan’s wonderful piece about applying inclusiveness to your hiring process, the Enterprise UX Conference’s journey through inclusive programming, how the Design & Content Conference put together a diverse conference production team, and Women Talk Design’s mission to empower organizers to create more diverse events. Interview: Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen It’s not hyperbole to say it was an honor and a pleasure to talk with UX designer and educator Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen. Stevie tells us about the causes that drive them, establishing a career in design, navigating coming out as queer, and what it really means to practice allyship. We talk about: Where Stevie lives in Vancouver, which is the unceded land of the Coast Salish people, particularly the Squamish, the Musqueam, and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations. Stevie’s work with Out in Schools, a program that engages students on issues of homophobia, transphobia, and bullying. How having a child while establishing a career—and then making choices about your career and your future—become intertwined in a way you never expected. What it means to realize you’re queer at 27—and what happens next. How we can better support marginalized people by practicing ongoing allyship, and provide safer spaces for those communities. (More on the idea of practicing allyship from Mariame Kaba.) Demystifying and sharing pronouns—and deconstructing the hard-coded way we think about each other. FYOTW We end the show with a little self-love and high-five because, fuck yeah!—we made the New & Noteworthy list on Apple Podcasts! AND it reminds us of all the amazing women-hosted podcasts we listen to and love—including a show you should definitely check out, called Good As Hell hosted by Lizzo. Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a diverse, intelligent, and motivated team—and they  want to apply to you. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re talking about. _WordPress—the place to build your personal blog, business site, or anything else you want on the web. WordPress helps others find you, remember you, and connect with you. _   Transcript Katel LeDû This episode of No, You Go is brought to you by Shopify, the leading global commerce platform for entrepreneurs. And did you know they’re growing? If you want to work with a diverse, passionate team that likes to get shit done, then you should talk to Shopify. The best part: they don’t just want you to apply to them, they want to apply to you. So visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re all about. Jenn Lukas Hey! And welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. KL I’m Katel LeDû. Sara Wachter-Boettcher And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. SWB I’m so excited today to talk about one of my favorite topics: inclusion. And, more specifically, we’re going to talk about how people like me, like all of us, can step up and make an impact for underrepresented groups in any field. To help us out, we sat down with a friend of mine, Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen, to learn more about what real inclusion can look like. But, first up, did you all watch the Oscars last week? JL Nope! KL Uh, I did, and I have a few favorite things I kind of want to share because, first of all — you didn’t have to watch it just to see all the pictures that come out of it but Janelle Monáe’s fire red, like military-inspired pant suit was phenomenal. SWB She looked amazing. KL She looked amazing. I also would really like to make a very genuine request to Tiffany Haddish and Maya Rudolph to run for presidents ASAP. SWB Like, co-presidents? KL Like, yeah, absolutely and then, I mean, to top it all off: Jordan Peele won for best screenplay for Get Out, which is just fucking so awesome. I saw that movie and I was so obsessed, I loved it so much that I started following Jordan Peele on Instagram, and he posts a lot of Get Out fan art, it is absolutely worth following. It’s magical. JL I loved that movie. KL It was so good. [2:02] JL Yeah. Um, also, I love this pantsuit. I just Googled it. SWB Get on the internet right now! “Janelle Monáe Oscars pantsuit.” The cape portion of it or whatever that kind of swoopy back is is amazing! So I loved that she really made it her own. Like it was not the kind of look that not just other women were wearing but that, like, anybody was wearing. But it also felt so completely Oscars. Right? Like it felt like she had the whole vibe — fantastic. Ok. So we can keep talking about the Oscars which I also did not actually watch. Uh I like to look at outfit photos later. But, instead, what I was hoping we could talk a little bit about was the story that came out about Frances McDormand and what she said at the end of her speech. She said something about how she wanted to leave the audience with two words and those words were “inclusion rider” So Nicole Sanchez wrote this piece that Jenn actually sent around to all of us, that was about what inclusion rider means in tech or what they could mean in tech. So Nicole is awesome. She is a diversity consultant who runs a company called Vaya Consulting. So she spent a long time looking at diversity and inclusion in the tech industry. And she wrote this piece where she talked about where inclusion riders come from and what they mean. So she credits Dr. Stacy Smith at USC for originally coming up with this concept, and says that it comes from diversifying talent in the media. And the concept is kind of pretty simple, right? It’s like: if you take a rider, which you may have heard about from the music industry— JL So a rider is like what you request if you are going to be performing somewhere. And it could be something like, “I need to have sparkling water, or I need to have a soundcheck of two hours before I’m going to go on.” It could be— KL A fancy rug. JL Or a fancy rug. It could be all these things, you know, maybe you want to make sure that you’re going to have some sort of food. Or in the famous case of Van Halen, you might say, “I demand there be no brown M&Ms.” Which really wasn’t a demand that they needed, they stuck that in their rider to make sure that it was actually being read. So it was one of those things where if they got to a venue and they saw that there was no brown M&Ms, then that means that someone actually read the rider, and the requests that they were going to do, and that they were going to have a good show. KL Paying attention. I mean it matters. JL That’s why Justin Bieber requests that his hotel room is decked out in carnations of a specific color pattern — I’m not making this up! KL I told you! It’s— [4:30] SWB Ok so, so the Bieber rider is not also what we want to talk about tonight. Although we could. Um instead I mean I really like the way that this concept applies to other facets of life. So what Frances was talking about at the Oscars was like, “Ok. If you are an in-demand name in Hollywood, you have an opportunity, in your contracts, to stipulate that the people who are working on the set, and the people who are working with you, um are coming from diverse backgrounds. You have this, you know, you have the opportunity to say that you want to make sure that they’re being paid fairly. You have an opportunity to make some demands that might actually be relatively small in comparison to what you could be getting paid if you’re a big star, but are really, really huge for people who aren’t you.” And so, what Nicole talks about in her article is really applying that other places like, let’s say, a tech conference. Like, if you’re an in-demand speaker, you also have a lot of power. And you can say, “I would love to speak at your event, but I’m going to need you to do some shit for me first.” And getting really specific about what you expect to make sure that that event is inclusive and welcoming to people who are not in demand like you are. KL Yeah, I really like what Nicole wrote because it made it really obvious and seemed really reasonable to have this filter out into a lot of different areas, right? And, like you were saying, you might not be a speaker who’s super in-demand, you might just be starting out. But I think a lot of it is just knowing that it’s very fair and totally appropriate to ask questions about the thing that you’re about to sign up to do. SWB Totally! That reminds me of what Erika Hall talked about when we interviewed her which is like the importance of asking questions and the power of asking questions. I have been thinking about this a lot and I talked about this a little bit actually on Twitter today. Like, one of the things that I’ve started doing is when I’m asked to speak at conferences which, you know, I’ve written some books, and I’ve done a lot of speaking. So I do get asked which is great but I’ve started asking some questions back and I try to make them pretty consistent, across the board, because I find if I ask the same stuff over and over, I’m more comfortable asking and it also feels a little less weird, like it’s not a special standard, it’s just my standard. And so I have a few things that I would say are kind of in my rider, or at least like, they’re in my Go/No Go [chuckling] kind of file, right? Like I won’t go to your event if you don’t answer these questions in a way that I can live with. So it’s things like, you know, for me I always ask like, “Does your event have a code of conduct?” That’s something that’s on Nicole’s list too. But I also ask things like, “What are you doing to ensure that your event has a diverse lineup?” And I ask it that way specifically because I want to hear how people think about it. And if they tell me things like, “Well, we just want to have the best speakers.” Then that’s a big red flag for me because I question, “Well, how do you know you have the best speakers? ‘Best’ according to whom? According to like people you already knew? People your Twitter connections already knew?” You know it’s like it brings up a lot for me. Or at least it’s an opportunity to have a conversation with them. And depending on how that conversation goes, that can tell me a lot about whether I’m interested in coming there, and also it’ll tell me whether I’m interested in investing time and helping them identify speakers they hadn’t heard about, which I’m super happy to do if I feel confident that, you know, if I recommend a speaker who is from a more marginalized group, who’s maybe less experienced than I am, to go to an event, I don’t want that person to be treated poorly. I want to make sure that I’m sending them to an event where somebody’s going to take them seriously. So I feel like by having those conversations, it gives me a chance to feel out how much somebody’s thought about this, how open they are to change, and how willing they are to kind of put in work. Because it is. It takes work, right? Just like we talked about on an earlier episode: it takes work to think about, you know, not centering all your events on drinking, which is a really answer. It takes worth to think about something like onsite childcare but like every single detail you do as an event planner is work and I want them to think about this as an important piece of their job. [8:33] KL Yeah, I mean, you just said that you have an opportunity to do this and I would almost say that established folks, like yourself, I imagine feel like they have a — an obligation to. SWB Absolutely. I don’t know that everybody does. I wish more people who felt like they had some sway — and I, you know, I have like some level of sway. There’s people who — who are like much more in demand and who make a lot of money speaking in our field. And I think that they have a huge responsibility. But I definitely, 100 percent like I — yes, I think of that as an opportunity in the sense of like, I’m glad to have the opportunity. But 100 percent it is an obligation and it is a responsibility. JL Yeah, um I’ve always did a similar thing to you, Sara, where I had a list of a set of questions that I asked every conference opportunity that came up and, you know, like you’re saying, it helps when you have the standard because then you can send an email back that’s like, “This is what I ask all my conferences. No matter what.” And I wrote a post about this awhile back, mine were focused a little bit more about seeing if they — if speakers were paid, and one of the things that I really like to ask is, “What is the cost of the conference? And how many attendees do you expect?” And then afterwards I would say, “What is your speaker fee?” To make sure that then, you know, if a conference will write back, “Oh our conference cost 12 hundred dollars, we’re expecting, you know, a thousand, 2,000, 5,000 people and then the speaker fee is zero, right? KL Then that math is wrong! SWB That math speaks for itself, right? Like it’s like, “Mmm, hmm, how do you like the way those numbers look on the page?” Right. [10:00] JL Not — not too great um so I think it’s really important, you know, for — to realize too and like it’s a mix of educating also, where I think some people never— never thought about that. And I’m not saying that that’s ok. But like it is — then I become, “Well, here are these questions and why I’m asking them because it’s not ok.” SWB Yeah, I mean I wish that everybody would have thought about this by now. I kind of feel like, “C’mon, like you sh— c’mon, you should be thinking about this already.” However, I also accept that that’s not the case and if my goal is to make more people aware, and hope that more people come along with me on this particular journey, then I do feel like part part of it — being able to do something than education is ok and important. I don’t expect everybody to do that, in all circumstances, but I feel like I have enough like sort of comfort and confidence of where I am that I— I can do that. And I think that’s a service to — I’m not so much worried about doing it as a service to the conference organizer, I think that’s like a side benefit. I think about that as a service to the industry, at large, and to the people who need that information to be more widespread. JL Completely. And, you know, I would say that, as a speaker, I did this but as an attendee I’ve asked for things too. And so I feel like people should feel empowered to ask questions as an attendee also, you know, “Will you have a vegan meal?” “Will you have a vegetarian meal?” And that’s something that I used to ask a lot um you know, “Is there a place to nurse?” Or “Is there a place to pump?” And like, “What sort of facilities will be available?” And, as an attendee, someone who’s paying for a conference, you should definitely feel empowered. I mean as a speaker, you should too, that wasn’t taking away from that. But you should definitely feel empowered to write the organizers and make sure that they will have these things available to you also. SWB And I’m also deeply suspect of any event that makes you feel bad for having— like if some event makes you feel bad because you ask for a vegan meal or you ask for a nursing room, like, “I’m sorry. What the actual fuck?” It’s one thing for them not to necessarily be able to meet every need, that’s like a different conversation. But I think if somebody comes to you with a need, and you write them off, or you minimize it, or you pretend like it doesn’t matter. Like, I don’t want to go that event. And I don’t want — I don’t want those people to have my money, or for them to use like my face and my talk to promote their event. KL Right. SWB Um so there were some things though on Nicole’s list that I’d never thought about before that I’m super glad to have heard about now. So for example, I had not thought about — and I feel silly not having thought about it but I never thought about asking about the people who are working the event. So like the laborers, the people who are doing setup and takedown, the people who are doing food, like how are they being paid? She specifically mentioned, you know, what are the labor conditions, are they part of a union? I think there’s probably a whole lot of different questions you might ask depending on your particular interests or your particular kind of like stance but I think asking about the welfare and the support of the people who are not kind of seen as like part of the conference, but are, in fact, like what makes the conference run. Like that’s a huge area that I’m going to be thinking more about. KL And the fact that, you know, she points out, is there — is there a process for intake of these kinds of requests, or like these kinds of questions, right? For like just handling that and — and talking about them. JL So I think the conversation that keeps coming up again and again, from conference organizers saying, “How do I make this happen? How do I diversify my lineups? How do I diversify my speakers?” And I think some people have provided solutions and ideas for this. An article I read recently on Medium was about the Enterprise UX Conference which um they’ve been working on this for four years and every year have slowly iterated on how they’ve been handling things. And I think one of the things that is really great about that is they didn’t just give up after year one. They’re like, “Well, I don’t know how to do it.” Is that they’ve been slowly trying to improve their process and they wrote about this and they were saying that one of the things they did was make sure to have different people, besides three white men, choosing the lineup and being in charge of the themes. And as soon as they started expanding from that, then so did their speaker lineup. SWB You know one of my favorite conferences, Design and Content, actually a conference that Stevie, our guest today, is going to MC this year, they’ve done a really similar thing where they have a selection committee and what they specifically did is they intentionally went out and identified people from a bunch of different backgrounds and then they paid them for their time to be on that committee. And it dramatically changed how they come up with who’s going to be on the roster for the year. And they’ve written about it publically, we’ll put that in the show notes, because I think that they have a process that is — is something that other people can follow. And, you know, part of it came out of their first year. They had really good intentions. They went out and thought about, you know, “You know let’s make sure we have a good, diverse lineup. Let’s ask some people who we’ve never seen before, and some new faces, et cetera.” And an attendee called them out for it at the event and said you know, “This lineup is really white.” And they had to take a step back and be like, “Yeah, it is.” And sit with that. Right? And figure out what to do about that. And I think that that’s hard but I think that’s one of the responsibilities that we have is to be able to hear those kinds of feedback and say, “Ok I’m going to listen to that and then I’m going to figure out how do I change?” And, you know, and that’s one of the reasons I like to ask these questions I ask, right? Is it’s like, do I get defensiveness? Or do I get somebody who can say, “Yeah, you know, we haven’t that diverse of a lineup in past years. You’re right that’s something we should change. I have some ideas but I would love to hear more,” or whatever it is. But that — that openness is really, really important. So, um, that’s one of the things about Enterprise UX that I think has been great as well is that they’re willing to write about it. Like they’re willing to admit it that it wasn’t great year one! Which is sometimes hard to do, right? You have to be able to look at your work and say like, “Here are the ways that this wasn’t where we wanted to be. And then here’s what we did differently.” [16:11] JL Another site that I found interesting was womentalkdesign.com. Their tagline is that they “elevate the best talks about design from women and empowers event organizers with tools, approaches, and information to engage more women speakers.” So this is a neat project because it’s an answer to that question of, “Well, I don’t know where to find these speakers!” And so I really like it because they went out and tackled this specific question that people kept asking. SWB Yeah, I mean Christina Wodtke who is one of the people who created that site, I know that part of this was born of her frustration. Like, she’s been in the industry a long time, working in tech and in UX. And people would frequently ask her, “Well, where do I find all these diverse speakers?” And now she’s like, “I don’t have to answer that question anymore!” Right? Like she’s like, “They’re out there. You just have to do a little bit of work, to get outside of the bubble that you have,” and then she was like, “Ok, let me go and do some of that work.” And um — and so the result is that it’s like, “Oh! You’re looking for more diverse lineups for your event?” That’s certainly not everybody, by any means, but like if you haven’t at least gone through that, like you’ve done not even the bare minimum. JL And I— I don’t think inclusiveness just stops at these conferences, right? I mean one of the things that came out recently was Lara Hogan wrote a great article about how to apply inclusiveness to your hiring process, and how to like tackle that, and one of the things that she had was to make sure that you have a diverse group of the team interviewing these candidates, and I think that’s great thing: making sure that it’s not just one group of people that are interviewing all of your candidates as they come in. SWB And I think it also goes back to some of the same stuff that we talked for like an inclusion rider is that if you are in a position where you feel like you have some choice about the job that you’re taking, which I recognize not everybody is in, but if you’re in that position and you’re thinking about, “I want a place that’s going to give me the most growth opportunity, I want the place that’s going to offer a really good salary package, et cetera, et cetera,” you know, I think that it’s another responsibility to be able to say, “I want to place that is willing to kind of put its money where its mouth is when it comes to being an inclusive environment,” and to ask those same kinds of questions, right? “So what are you doing to increase diversity in your team?” And “What are you doing to support people who come from different backgrounds? And like — what does that look like?” JL I love this question. I love this so much. Um I think it’s like— as a candidate, as an interviewee, you might be like, “Well, how do I phrase this? How do I make sure that this job is going to be a good job with me?” And I think that’s a great way to phrase it. Um when we interview people, one of the questions I always ask is, um I phrase it as: “Diversity and inclusiveness are really important values to us. What are some important values to you?” And, you know, it’s a very leading question but you’d be surprised at how many people go on some sort of tangent that is, like, “Ah. You know? I want to make sure that I have like — snacks.” No one’s ever said snacks! That’s an exaggeration [sure] but it’s certainly something that’s like, you know, not appropriate for the answer or where I was hoping that they would go. SWB We talk a lot about sort of how this relates to people who are working in like tech and design fields, but this is the kind of thing that I think is really transferrable to almost any field, right? Like that it’s not really about the industry that you’re in, it’s like if you were working in an industry that is not necessarily perfectly inclusive, which is like, newsflash: probably all of them. Then you know I think that the— the same kind of stuff applies and you can kind of bring some of these same principles and ideas along. So I’m really stoked that we’re talking about inclusion riders, I don’t think it necessarily has to be like a contract in every circumstance, I think it’s much more about how can you apply that concept to whatever it is that you’re doing in your professional and however you’re interacting with people who hold power in your industry. [19:55] ** **** JL** [Sponsor] No, You Go is proud to be supported by wordpress.com. Whether you’d like to build a personal blog, a business site, or both, creating your website on wordpress.com can help others find you, remember you, and connect with you. That’s why nearly 30 percent of all websites run on WordPress. You don’t need experience setting up a website, WordPress guides you through the process from start to finish. And takes care of the technical side. In fact, we use WordPress at No, You Go. WordPress also has 24 hour customer support, which is great because we all have different schedules. Plans start at just four dollars a month. Start building your website today! Go to wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off any new purchase. That’s wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off your brand new website. Interview: Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen SWB Our guest today is Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen. I first met Stevie back in the summer of 2015, after I gave a talk at a conference up in Vancouver, and they approached me afterward wanting to chat about my talk, which was very flattering. But more than anything, what I really remember about that conversation was that this person I just met had come to me with so much kind of kindness and generosity, and our conversation felt so uplifting. And over the next few years, I have paid a lot of attention to what Stevie’s been up to and the things that they’re talking about and interested in. And this year, fast forward, Stevie is now going to be the MC of that very event where I met them: the Design & Content Conference. They’re also a UX designer, a design educator who works with youth and teaches in two different university programs, and somebody who’s just really active in their community in Vancouver, and in design in general. I am so excited to welcome Stevie to the show today. Thank you so much for being here. Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen Thank you for having me. Can I add a moment and just also acknowledge that I am also on unceded Coast Salish territories, and while we may call it Vancouver, it is the unceded land of the Coast Salish people, particularly the Squamish, the Musqueam, and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations. SWB Thank you for doing that. I think that actually sets the tone for this conversation really well because I think one of the things I would love to talk with you more about is sort of the way that you look at your role as a designer in your community and sort of the impact that you have on community and on the way that people from different backgrounds within your community are represented. So can you tell us a little more— how did you get to this place where you start a conversation and you say, “Actually, can we remind ourselves of the indigenous people whose land this is and this land has always been?” Like, what was your process of getting to a place that you were comfortable doing things like that? STAN Honestly, every time I have these moments where I’m like, “Oh! I need to say something, I should say something, this is the right thing to say,” and it is still really, really hard because I think always makes me uncomfortable not knowing how the other person may respond on the other end. Yeah, these issues are political and they are uncomfortable for people to talk about, hear, or acknowledge. I don’t know if you know what’s happening right now in Canada, but Tina and Coulton were murdered and people don’t talk about it because people don’t care. And so we need to bring these things up even though it’s really hard because people are dying. So that’s my response I guess. When I began to recognize that when we don’t talk about things, people die. And the more personal we make it, the more people who we spend time with who are directly affected by these things, by systemic oppression, the more we recognize the power that we have as individuals when we are in a place where we have to acknowledge these things. SWB That’s a pretty difficult topic and I think that that’s something pretty challenging to our audience — I mean, you mentioned that it’s hard for people to talk about, I think it’s hard to talk about on a podcast like this where we — where we really do want to talk about, you know, finding some joy even when things are difficult. And I don’t that that means erasing talking about the things that are difficult, by any means, and so, with that in mind, what is your day to day work? [25:23] STAN Hmm my day-to-day work probably doesn’t look too different from many people. I’m a parent; I have a five, almost six-year-old, son. And I have shared custody with his father. And so on days when he’s with me, I actually wake up at like 4:30 in the morning, and I wake up, and I shower, and I go to make a matcha latte for myself every morning. And I come out and I answer emails, I try my best to catch up on like Slack, on text messages, on WhatsApp, on Viber, on Signal, on my work email versus my personal email, and um what else is there? Messenger. So that’s kind of normal, I imagine, I think we all have these mornings of having to try to catch up with all that stuff. And then I get him ready for school, take him to school, and it’s a privilege that allows me to do that, and I come back and I work. And so some days that’s with Out in Schools, where I’m talking about queer and gender issues with young people in high schools. And sometimes in elementary schools. And other days it’s going to meet my own clients at their offices. And then other days, it’s staying home um and doing like UX work. So for me that’s everywhere from leading a workshop, like I did this morning, where I’m presenting to clients whatever our ideas are, whatever our proposals are, and then other days I’m heading off to go teach. And then I come home and I try to fit in some yoga somewhere. And pick up my son and then do things with him in the evening, feed him, put him to bed. And do some more work and then go to bed. That’s my day. SWB I think a lot of our listeners can relate to sort of the juggle and trying to figure out what the right mix of things is in a day and how to have some time for yourself amid everything else. Can you tell us more — like what was your journey into becoming a designer? How did you end up in this sort of life that you’ve crafted for yourself now? STAN I lucked into it, I think. I remember I was in high school and I had really no real idea about what I wanted to do and somebody came into the school who was an alumni and did a presentation. And she worked in — she worked in marketing for an ad agency. And I just thought her job sounded really cool. I liked that she got to like talk to people and I liked hearing about how she got to like come up with ideas to do things and like sell things to people, which I feel so much like cringey shame about now. But at the time it sounded really interesting. Um so I went into the university and studied communications but partway through my program, I did a certificate in innovative leadership from SFU, Simon Fraser University, and it was an eight-month program where the first four months we did workshops, and the last four months we got to do like a practical project with a local company. And the company that I happened to work with was a leadership development company. And at the end of this project, which was, funnily enough, all about looking at how people within the organization viewed their leadership skills, as opposed to people who are like several levels away from them. How did those people view their executives leadership skills. At the end of the project, the person I’d been working with at this company said, “Oh I noticed you like — maybe had some graphic skills. You know we really need a graphic designer.” And I’m like, “Well, I’m like — I’m taking my first course in design right now.” “Well, that’s great! That’s more knowledge than we have!” And so they hired me and I started off just like making PowerPoints and doing a lot of things in print, working within business development and supporting people people in sales. Packing suitcases. I did a lot of packing suitcases. But along the way I learned a lot about like leadership and leadership models and um when we talk about adult learning, that realm is something that I gained a lot of experience with over six years. And so at the same time I was still in school, had abandoned communications, and had — was fully in design now, and then I went away on an amazing field school and came back and was pregnant! So I took a year off. And I will say this is like — this is an important part of my professional journey, this is an important part of my growth and journey as a person, because having my son changed everything. I’ve always been someone that was really into research. So the moment I got into something, or the moment I found out about something new, I’d like totally geek out and go read every book, watch every movie and documentary, and talk to every person I could find about the thing. Uh I get really excited about new hobbies and interests. So I got really excited about being pregnant, and about birth, and about breastfeeding, um and about being a parent. And when that happened, I began to see the ways in which I had to make really, really clear decisions. So the same way in marketing or in design, you have to have a reason as to why you’re doing something for a certain desired outcome, I knew that I wanted my son, I wanted my child to be happy, and I knew that I wanted him to be really kind, and I knew that I wanted him to be really safe. Like I wanted him to live. Right? Like that’s all I really wanted and I knew that I had to make decisions to support that. And so that was like — we raised him vegan for the first like year because we felt it was important for him to have the choice, right? It was important for him to know that you don’t have to eat animals but you can and that’s your choice. But do you know what you are doing if you are going to that? So he still doesn’t really eat animals. But that’s still something that applied to me in my life. I began to think about like what am I doing? Is this who I want to be? Is this how — what powers do I have as an individual to like make all those things happen for him? And it made me really political. Like all of a sudden, things that I have always had values about like really mattered because I’d made an investment in the future by having him, and I needed to invest in the future. And then I got laid off from my job. The job that I’d had for six years. I was a marketing assistant or a project assistant but I was never actually a designer. And I was feeling a lot of doubt about this and I have a mentor at school, Russell Taylor, who is kind of the father to like so many of us in this design program. And I reached out to him and I said, “Well, I got laid off. I really love design but I have no design skills. I didn’t finish my degree.” And he goes, “Well come back and teach for me. Um like you know this stuff. You’ve taken this course and I like — I feel confident that you’re going to do a good job in this.” And so he brought me back and had me teaching his second year course with him. And then at the same time he was developing a conference that was in its second year. And at this conference, he brought in agencies and different companies to like do talks but also to do interviews. And while I was teaching, I also applied for an interview at this conference, and I came out of the conference and I was offered — I was offered some jobs! My first job in which I would get to call myself a designer. And so, Sara, this is where it kind of comes back around to you because this job was the first job that I gone in to do the interview and really felt like, “This is who I am. And like I don’t know these things. This is what I’m working on. Um please see some potential in me!” Like, “Please take some faith in me because I think I can do this.” Uh and I felt really good about some of the things that I felt were just really natural and inherent to me. And they absolutely said, “Yeah!” Like, “We think you can do this. We think that you can kick it out of the park. I feel confident putting you in front of like our — any client, right from the getgo.” And this was my manager, Robin Ashmore, and so it was the first job where I’m like, “Oh. Ok. Like I can admit that I don’t really know this but I can learn this and I can develop in these areas where I think I’m good.” And part of how he supported me was allowing me to go to that conference DCC, Design & Content, which is how I met Sara! And at this time though I was beginning to get really bitter, um I was beginning to look around and see that we, as designers, have all this potential to build things that really make a difference in the world and really help people, and yet we’re like focused on how to get snacks. Or we’re building technology that is actually enabling violence against marginalized people. So I — even now I tell people that I feel shame around calling myself a designer because as a whole, this industry is causing so much more problems than it is helping and I think so many of us have this power and opportunity to actually do something about it, and we’re afraid to. And we don’t. For whatever reasons. And some people have more ability to do something about it then others and I really do mean this in like ability, privilege, some people have more privilege in order to make change happen. Um but I went to this conference, I went to DCC, I met Sara. I’m like, “Oh!! There’s designers who really do see the same things I see! Who really are concerned about the same things that I’m concerned about.” And there are people who, like you, Sara, who want better things out of tech, who want designers to do better things — the tech industry to do better things. And so I began to look for places in which I could try to do better things and I could try to learn on how to be a better designer. This is where I’m at right now. Like I’m still working on that. I’m still trying to influence and like bring kindness into the world, bring safety into places where I think people need someone to invite them in or to support them while they’re there. So yeah that’s where I am right now. [35:25] SWB Well, I am so proud and kind of tearing up a little bit to think that I played even just like a tiny, tiny, little role in your story— STAN Big role! SWB —oh gosh! Ok, ok I wouldn’t — I wouldn’t oversell that. I really think like, you know, your work and your what you are bringing to your community is— is big and different than anything that I do. So I definitely don’t want to oversell what I might’ve played a role in. Something that I’m really interested in hearing more about that you mentioned a little bit ago is the work that you’re doing with Out in Schools. So can you tell us a little bit about that organization and how you got involved with them? STAN Yeah, oh. So I guess one of the key parts of the story that was a huge pivot point in my life, that happened shortly before I met Sara, is that I realized that I was queer. And I like to say that I “realized” because it was something that kind of — it’s always been a part of me. It’s who I am. I am a queer person. But I didn’t have the words for it and I didn’t know that’s what other people were calling it and when this happened, I was 27, I had already had my son, Noah, and I had a cis male partner. And realizing I was queer, finding queer community, making queer friends, really like embracing and exploring what that could mean for me was like so amazing! It sounds so cheesy, but I really did feel like I was born again. And I was also really disappointed and sometimes embarrassed to admit that I was 27. And I think about how I grew up with very conservative parents. I think they’re a little bit more liberal now than they used to be but they are conservative, they’re still very Catholic. I grew up in a very Catholic cishet family. And I was also really protected, care for, loved, I still am. And for them, that meant sheltering me from just sexuality in general. And so that included putting me in an all-girls private school um great school, I mean great academics but it was also an all girls Catholic private school. So we didn’t get sex-ed. And when I was 27, I realized that I was queer and I was so happy about it because I think like being queer is so liberating, and so fun. I really wanted to make it happen — or contribute to a culture where queerness is normalized. And so I found the Queer Film Festival, I met some people there, including some facilitators from Out in Schools, and they became my friends. Jen Sung, in particular, reached out and was like, “Hey! You kind of said that you would love to do this. Were you serious?” And I said, “Yes!” And she goes, “Well! We’re hiring! You should submit an application!” And I submitted an application and became an Out in Schools facilitator. So we’re led by Gavin Somers and Brandon Yan, and we go around to high schools, and elementary schools, and we talk to young people about queer and trans issues using media, like using film. So we watch movies with them, we watch music videos with them and we lead discussions. And it’s interesting in the ways in which like that also ties back into the skill I have around facilitation because that’s part of what I do in my job as a designer. So I get to practice, like, being in front of people, and presenting, and engaging with audiences. Like, in everything that I do, in many places in my life. [39:24] SWB That’s such a cool additional piece to your professional profile that I didn’t know about until — you know just now, right? Like you being involved with Out in Schools seems like, in some ways, you know, really different from doing the design work, but it feels very natural, the way that you talk about it all together. STAN Thanks. It feels really natural to me. SWB I’m also curious, you know, you mentioned coming out as queer at 27 and sort of realizing to yourself that that was even the case and I know that in that same time period you also started going by different pronouns, and coming out as non-binary, and I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about what that was like? And especially what was that like, you know, in the context of work where that seems like maybe it could be a challenging thing to do. STAN Well, what had happened was that you did this amazing talk and you were really vulnerable and real and talked about how important it was to like create spaces and technologies that allowed and encouraged people to be who they are uh rather than try to force them to fit in any particular box. And I came up to you and I was in tears, I remember this, because I had this name tag and the name tag actually had my name, like “Stevie” was on it, but Stevie’s like — is not my given name. And I was expressing to you, like, “Oh my god, how amazing is it that, yeah the Eventbrite form for the conference was like, shout out to Steve Fisher and Shannon Fisher for recognizing the significance and importance of this. But the conference signup form allowed me to input my name. Like it didn’t ask me for a piece of ID to like prove that that was my name.” And I’m like tearing up now, thinking about it, but yeah that’s like it was the first piece of paper that I wore around my neck that allowed me to identify myself and identify myself to other people as Stevie. And it was in a professional context. And then all the speakers, everybody that I met that weekend like called me Stevie. Like everybody that knows me from that time onwards, calls me Stevie and so it felt so good. I came back and I didn’t immediately do it but from then on, anytime I introduced myself to somebody I was like, “No, Stevie.” Like I’d been doing this previously, as a nickname to personal friends but not professional contacts. And being at Design and Content, meeting people who would use my name eventually I think, a couple weeks later, gave me the confidence to actually casually, jokingly at work say, “Actually! Like all my friends call me Stevie.” And so my co-workers were like, “Do you want us to call you Stevie?” And I’m like, “Yes!!!” And I had another amazing colleague, like Jason Landry, he reached out to me privately on Slack and said, “Hey, I know that you’re going by Stevie.” And like, “Awesome! Stevie’s a great name. I just wanted to check in. Like have your pronouns changed? Like what pronouns would you like me to refer to you as?” So at the time I said, “Oh um like no, like, she/her is fine.” And she/her is great. I just don’t use she/her anymore. Like they/them is super comfortable to me. Like it makes me feel really good. And so I use they/them and eventually like it was people in my team making me feel like welcome. And doing that work of like welcoming me as opposed to me having to step out and be vulnerable is what allowed me to come to work and tell people, “My name is Stevie.” And now like over time I’ve built enough confidence to include it in my email signature. If I meet someone new, I always say, “Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen. My pronouns: they/them/theirs.” So I try to assert myself and I know that from what we tell young people in schools, every time that I do that, I can help somebody else feel more comfortable sharing their pronouns. And as a practice of allyship, that’s the best thing folks can do is share their pronouns. SWB I love that story so much and I’m so thankful that you had a colleague who reached out to you sort of made it ok for you to say like, “Yeah, actually I prefer to go by different pronouns.” Was that a scary conversation to start to have? Like the first few times you were doing that in these professional settings? STAN Mm hmm yeah. And I mean, let’s be honest, my team, most of the people on my team are great. They use they/them pronouns. Some people still make mistakes. I think it’s interesting the way in which every time someone new comes onto the team, if I don’t already know them, I have to find a time or an opportunity to, hopefully, quickly get in there and let them know that my pronouns are they/them/theirs before they hear maybe the wrong pronoun from somebody else, or make an assumption, and then I eventually have to awkwardly correct them. But yeah it was initially really hard because I didn’t even understand the — like once I understood how it felt empowering to me, it was hard because there was always a lot of explaining. People like need explanations or they look at me, you know, like, “Wait. What does that mean?” And they like — I think — I think people look at me and they’re like, “Wait. What does that mean for your body parts?” SWB Which um is — has nothing to do with it at all. STAN Exactly. But— SWB It is not an appropriate question for work — like pretty much ever. STAN Well it’s just like — I don’t think it needs to be even verbally said sometimes, it’s just like people stop and look like the same way. Some folks know — like particularly feminine-presenting folks knows what it looks when someone looks at you and looks you up and down [mm hmm]. I think like queer and trans and non-binary folks, we know what it looks like when you look at us and you’re like, “Mmm,” like, “What’s under your clothes and how do you have sex?” [44:55] SWB Which I, you know, I understand that it’s kind of uncomfortable for people when they are first presented with pronoun and gender stuff that they’ve not encountered before and that they don’t understand, and um and then even still, you know, I mean I think I, for example, like I have several friends who would identify as non-binary or who identify as, let’s say they’re trans, and I have tried to unlearn some of that like default gender binary language and it’s hard. And I screw it up. And I screw it up oftentimes when I have, you know it’s like something gets coded in my brain early on, whether it’s an assumption, or whether it’s something where, you know, I have a friend who I met when they presented as male and they, at some point, came out as trans. And they’re a woman. And I sometimes still have like that little mental like kind of hiccup right? That like is about the history that I have with them, and sort of having to shift my thinking, I mean that just is what it is but that that’s up to me, right? Like it’s my job. It’s my job to figure that out. It’s not their job to figure that out. And if I feel weird or if I have to like go through an extra like you know mental circuit in order to make sense of it and make sure that I’m doing it correctly, like, that’s work that is on me to do. And that the more I do that kind of work, the easier it becomes. And that’s kind of like the way that I’ve tried to deal with it but I think it’s — I think it’s something that seeing people like you who are willing to be vulnerable and to say, “Hey, this is who I am.” And to know that you might get reactions that aren’t positive and that aren’t good. I think that that’s — it’s such a gift, I think, to the rest of us, in terms of opening our minds and helping us get to a more inclusive place. KL I also just want to say that— that you said something, you said the words, “practice of allyship,” and I wrote that — I just wrote that down because I like that so much and I feel like if we can just share that as much as possible, that is — that is such a gem of a thing to think about. STAN Let me — let me credit that Mariame Kaba who is @prisonculture on Twitter because I heard Mariame — actually I may be pronouncing this wrong: M-A-R-I-A-M-E. I heard her speak on a webinar, which is run by Talila Lewis, TL Lewis, who does not use any pronouns, and this is what they — the whole discussion was about, was about the practice of allyship. That no one gets to say like, “I am an ally! So I am done!” Like it’s not about what this identity, it’s about how do you continue to practice allyship. KL Exactly. It’s like — it really, truly is a practice. It’s like all things that you, you know, I’m — at least I know for myself that I want to get good at, you know, between yoga, and just being a, you know, a better friend and publisher and coworker. It’s— it really, truly takes practice. And you have to be — you have to be aware of that. STAN Yeah, and it takes like that, like what you talked about earlier, Sara, that constant, the constant practice and I think when we’re in community with other people, we’re all practicing our allyship to marginalized people, and marginalized communities, there has to be a practice of forgiveness as well. Like grace, for us as individuals, and the practice of forgiveness for each other. Like I wouldn’t know anything I know if somebody didn’t tell me I was wrong if somebody didn’t like — wouldn’t forgive me, and like didn’t cast me out of their life because I made a mistake, but it also has to come from a place of like being willing to sit around and like shut up sometimes. SWB So as somebody who has gotten more comfortable bringing your whole identity to work, and who has kind of gone through some of those scary parts, what would you tell someone or what advice would you have for somebody who is thinking about some of the same things, about being able to be more of their authentic selves in their professional environments and being able to kind of fuse maybe some of the stuff that they’ve kept personal or private with the way that they present professionally. [49:40] STAN Hmm. What would I tell someone? I think the first thing I would want to make sure is that person feels safe. And I know this word like “safe” or “safety” gets thrown around a lot. But, quite honestly, what are your risks and dangers? And what violence may you face if you fully — if you bring yourself fully? And this is me speaking from a position of privilege of where I am able to bring myself to work, where every part of me is at least, at the very least, recognized and acknowledged. And then I would say: surround yourself in community and with allies to support you through it. I don’t think I could do it if I didn’t think — like I don’t think I could show up, assert my name, assert my pronouns, talk about my politics, if I thought that I would be attacked in any way, or punished in any way. And so that — that’s sort of required first. Make sure you’re safe and make sure you have support. And then, like show up and be real. This — it’s, again, cheesy sayings but I was tweeting, I tweeted about it this morning. But this idea of like nobody — I don’t know anything other than my own experience and I have so little that I know, but all I know is like myself. And so if I show up at work as myself, then I’m in a state of being in my greatest power. And I think if you can find a workplace where they want you to be there in your greatest power, then like, yeah, show up. This is how you do it. KL I love that. STAN Does that help? SWB That’s so great. That is so great. Yeah. So, very last question then is you mentioned safety and the importance for people who are going to do something vulnerable, whether that’s you know coming out at work or anything else, to feel like they have some sense of safety. So what can listeners do who feel like they can — they have some power in their workplace or in the organizations they’re part of, to help foster that safety for people. Like what are some of the ways that we can ensure that more of the people that we work with feel safe around us? STAN Well I think for people of marginalized identities, yeah, showing up so that you can be that example, so that you can be another person who like makes someone feel safe because you see someone who’s similar to you. That’s one way. But if you aren’t, like if you are someone who is in a position of privilege and power, gosh, like: not punishing people. How do you make — how do you make that space? Inviting it? Educating yourself? Like and making it — like I’ll bring it back to the beginning: like making it personal. I think if you genuinely care about the people in your company, then these are things worth learning about and these are things worth like not just acknowledging and recognizing and forgiving, for some reason, like if you think it’s wrong and you “forgive” them for this thing. Like get past that point where you can love them for that. [55:08] STAN I think that’s it. FYOTW SWB I have a pretty important Fuck Yeah tonight. It’s the Fuck Yeah to the um real champagne that Katel brought over today. KL Uh we have to take this moment to say a little “Fuck yeah” to ourselves because we made it onto the New and Noteworthy in Apple Podcasts and I’m really excited because we are a little, indie podcast that we started because we just really wanted to talk to each other and see where this went and, I’m psyched. SWB We started talking a while back about how much we were really hoping we could get onto the New and Noteworthy list because it’s a really good way to get new audience, and have people kind of be aware of you, plus it just feels good to know that what you’re doing is working. And, when I started looking at the other shows that were on there, almost all of them were supported by a bigger brand. It was like a podcast coming from Gimlet, or a podcast coming from Slate, or some other organization that was backing them and funding them, and so it’s a kind of a big deal to have a podcast like this that’s completely independently run be able to make it onto that list. Or at least, it feels like a big deal to me. JL Fuck yeah! It’s a big deal! KL Feels like a huge deal. SWB And I was also thinking about how much of a big deal to see a podcast ran by women, and more podcast run by women coming out because I feel like for a long time, there were just so few. I remember seeing a stat the other day that was like something like 70 percent of podcasts are run by men. And I don’t know if that’s true. Like it wasn’t the kind of stat that I felt like I could easily back up. But it is something that’s talked about quite a lot in the industry is just how male-dominated podcasting is. And how almost all of the biggest name podcasts are run by men. And, you know, there’s some really great podcasts run by men. It’s not like there aren’t but like man, there are so many interesting women doing interesting things. And I would love to hear from more of them. And, like, that’s what we’re doing. JL Yeah! I mean, also, fuck yeah women’s history month! And with that in mind I just started looking — I went a little Google-wild again and I just started looking at all these like, you know there’s all these lists, it’s the internet; of course there’s lists. But I just started looking into more like women-run podcasts and I just started going through them all — and I just — I have so many queued up right now. I’m so excited to listen to them all because I feel like, again, the more we support each other as women podcasters, the more that we get our — like we share our message! And we keep listening to each other and raising each other up! So it’s been so fun to try to listen to some of these other podcasts also. Katel, I know that you have been like super into one recently. KL Yeah, I gotta be honest: I’m actively looking for more podcasts that are just basically more diverse voices. And one that I really like lately is by a music artist that I just really love, her name is Lizzo. And if you don’t know her, just Spotify that shit immediately because it will make you feel good and it’s totally worth it. But she has a new podcast, that I think launched like right around the same time ours did, which is so cool, and it’s on Spotify. She describes it as, “A safe space for the baddest women in music.” She’s an alternative rapper, she sits down with iconic queens and rising stars and basically sets the record straight on making a name in a very male-dominated world in music. So I just love that. I love her. I’m so happy that I get to hear her not only sing but also talk and talk with other women. JL What’s the podcast called? KL Sorry, I should’ve said that! It’s called Good As Hell which is also just a really fucking good name. And yeah it’s really inspiring and you should take a listen. JL Maybe we could do a crossover episode: No, You Good. KL That would be amazing! SWB I love this whole concept because it feels like a sister podcast to No, You Go. Because I think that that’s really like — similar stuff we’re trying to do. Obviously we don’t have as many connections in music but if any, like, musical stars want to be on our show, that’s great. JL Kesha! [Ahem.] SWB Kesha is definitely like Jen’s number one dream guest. She’s literally on a spreadsheet right now. But I think that — that’s a lot of the same stuff that we’re trying to talk about, right? It’s like who are the most badass women and non-binary people we have encountered in our professional lives who are doing great things and who have something to say to the world? And how can we talk about ways to elevate their voices and make spaces that are more inclusive? So fuck yeah to women-run podcasts. JL Fuck yeah! KL Fuck yeah on New and Noteworthy. [59:59] JL Well, that’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go! The show about being ambitious— and sticking together. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia and produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. Thanks to Stevie Thuy Anh Nguyen for being our guest today. If you like what you’ve been hearing on our podcast, we would love it if you subscribed and rated us on Apple Podcast where we’ve been New and Noteworthy! And fuck yeah! New and Noteworthy! Deserved! Your support really helps us spread the word. We’ll be back next week with another great guest.

Let’s be real: writing is hard. We’ve written and rewritten this intro seven times. Taking on any new challenge or project that requires deep thought, passion, and creativity, can push us outside of our comfort zones. It can make us feel anxious about succeeding—but it can also force us to grow and take on new challenges. In this episode, Erika Hall talks with us about starting a design agency, the power of empathy in everything we do, and her brand-new book. > People are actually terrified of asking questions — and especially people who end up in positions of leadership. To say, “Oh, we don’t know this and we have to find something out, and I don’t have the answer” is really scary, and that’s nothing that we’ve been rewarded for our entire lives. And if you want to have a research mindset or just use evidence to make decisions, you have to be in a constant state of admitting that you don’t have all the answers. > > —Erika Hall, Mule Design Here’s what we get into—and of course, there’s a full transcript, too. Show Notes First, Katel shares a secret: when she started working for A Book Apart, she’d never worked on a book before. But neither had the first author she worked with! And it all worked out ok. We discuss getting used to big new challenges, and how to decide when it’s time to take the leap and write a book—and then give the middle finger to imposter syndrome. Interview: Erika Hall Designer, author, and all-around smarty Erika Hall fills us in on how she spent the last year: writing a book (and getting stuck, and writing some more), teaching people how to make better design decisions, and taking on gender bias in the workplace. We talk about: How she started Mule Design and how the agency—and their work—has changed since 2001. Being outspoken online and fighting the trolls who live in our review systems. Why it’s critical to bring empathy into our working relationships as well as our personal ones—and how feeling comfortable being uncomfortable can be the most powerful thing you can do. Why we won’t solve gender bias with education alone; we have to change our own habits and help others learn to do the same. Her new book, Conversational Design, all about how to use conversation as a model for designing interactive digital products and services that are less robotic and more real. The joys and horrors of writing: making it through 2017, surviving the myth that your second book will be easier than your first, overcoming a health setback—but getting through it all to launch a book. Finding inspiration IRL—no, really, sometimes stepping away from our screens and talking to our neighbors is the best way to rediscover the good in the world. And listening to Oprah. And Ru Paul. Fuck Yeah of the Week We end the show with heartfelt appreciation and admiration for Emma Gonzalez (@emma4change) and the massive student activism movement that has been ongoing in the wake of Parkland.To all the people, young and old, who are standing up and speaking out: fuck yeah and thank you. Links: Tweet from David Hogg RuPaul’s Drag Race BBC’s In Our Time The 9 Rules of Design Research Be a Pal, My Dude Just Enough Research Conversational Design Mule Design’s Gender Bias Workshop Sponsors This episode of NYG is brought to you by: Shopify, a leading global commerce platform that’s building a diverse, intelligent, and motivated team—and they  want to apply to you. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re talking about. _WordPress—the place to build your personal blog, business site, or anything else you want on the web. WordPress helps others find you, remember you, and connect with you. _ Transcript Sara Wachter-Boettcher Do you want to work with a diverse, passionate team that likes to get shit done? Then you should talk to Shopify. Shopify is the leading global commerce platform for entrepreneurs. And they’re growing! And they don’t just want you to apply to them. They want to apply to you. Visit shopify.com/careers to see what they’re all about [music fades in]. Jenn Lukas Welcome to No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. I’m Jenn Lukas. Katel LeDû I’m Katel LeDû. SWB And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher. JL Whether it’s a blog post, a conference talk, or a book, writing is hard. Finding inspiration to create is hard, but how do we get through it? On today’s episode we’ll talk with Erika Hall, co-founder of Mule Design and author of Just Enough Research and, the brand new book, Conversational Design. We’ll hear about what motivates her to write, and how she manages everyday bumps in the road to large-scale challenges. But before we hear from Erika, let’s talk about this whole publishing thing. KL So … when I started at A Book Apart, I had never worked on a book before … and neither had Erika. SWB Wait, hold on. You started being in charge of a publishing company after not having ever worked on a book before? KL Yeah, no, shhh, don’t tell anyone that. SWB So, first up: like, uh, I don’t know that anybody could tell because you did great. But, like. how did that happen? KL So while I was jumping into publishing into a book, I was also getting acclimated to the role, and figuring out what I was doing with A Book Apart. And like really, truly, the company was also sort of figuring that out. Which is good. We were growing together. But it was something I had never done before and I was absolutely terrified. I was basically supposed to be the leader on this project. I was supposed to know what I was doing, I was supposed to keep everything going. I was also supposed to establish myself and get a bunch of people to trust me and to work with me and to know that I was going to lead them in the right direction. Um and [chuckles] I felt like I was starting from scratch and completely flailing. There was also no one I could really talk to because I, all of a sudden, didn’t have any colleagues. I had always worked for companies that were large. I had always worked for organizations where I went into an office every day and, all of a sudden, I was, you know, working from home. I was completely by myself and we didn’t have a team. I was the first full-time employee with A Book Apart. So it was really strange to kind of go from being around a bunch of people all the time to being alone. It took me like a good year to just like get used to it. [2:45] SWB Yeah, I mean, something I was really thinking about as you were talking was like, ok, how much I think we often … underestimate how long it should take to get used to something. And big changes take a really long time. You know they talk about like what are the most stressful moments in people’s lives? And some of them are, you know, grief of a close — you know, losing somebody close to them and going through grief, or going through a divorce, but also things like moving is one of the most stressful things. All of those like high-stress things — new jobs are definitely part of that. And I think like — I don’t know, at least I do this to myself where I’m like, “I should be over this by now.” Or like, “This shouldn’t be that big of a deal,” and then it is a big deal and you end up kind of beating yourself up about why aren’t you comfortable yet or why aren’t feeling more in the groove of things yet? And then like you know [sighs] looking at it from the outside though and being like, “Uh Katel! Of course that took a fucking year [laughing] that sounds really hard!” KL Yeah. SWB You get a different perspective. KL Yeah well and even thinking about like the, you know, the question that you asked in the beginning of kind of like, how did you start at this, you know, at this thing that you hadn’t done before? I had like so many fears about that … because I spent, and again, because I was sort of on my own and didn’t have like an ongoing feedback loop, I was always in my head about like, did I make the right choice? And am I gonna do this job well? Like am I gonna serve this company and these people, you know, to the best of my ability? … I was actually just talking to Erika the other day because, you know, her book is launching and she was like, “Oh my gosh, I hadn’t really realized that was both our first time working on a book.” And she was like, “Well, you know what? It worked out.” [Laughing] And I was like, “Yeah, it totally worked out. It worked out well.” JL I — [laughs] I love this because this is like the quintessential fuck of imposter syndrome [laughter]. Like essentially you were just like, “You know what?” You said it. You said you felt like you were flailing but I mean, spoiler alert, because we’re years ahead now. I mean, you weren’t! I mean, you published a slew of great books! So obviously you took this and you got through and you did do an awesome job. So I love it because I feel like we can now look back and talk a little bit about how you were feeling but you still took on that job. You still did it, even with potentially these doubts that you had, or these feelings of flailing, you took it and you were like, “I’m gonna do this.” There had to be this part of you that was like, “I know I can do this,” because you did it, right? SWB Also, this is the obligatory moment where I have to remind everybody that Katel is now the CEO of A Book Apart [KL laughs], where, that wasn’t where you started, right? Like you were the managing editor when you started there? [5:35] KL Managing director. SWB Managing director, sure [yeah]. Um so, right, going from being the managing director, which is obviously still kind of running the show and getting books out the door, to being the CEO means that the people who founded the company saw that you were doing an excellent job and that you not only could lead publishing but that you needed to be at an executive level of the organization. Like … so … yeah. Like you can do it, obviously. I think we have a lot of evidence at this point [laughing] that you can do it. KL Yeah. Here I’m like wiping my brow. I mean, yeah, and I think while I was stepping into having only been in very structured environments, I was like, “Ok, this might be a little more difficult for me.” But it was also a chance for me to be like, “I can make this something that I want it to be.” Which is amazing. That’s an amazing opportunity. But yeah, I mean I think you have to look for those openings and kind of say, “Alright, I can do this job. You know, I have these skills. And it might just be a little bit of different scenario or the set up might be different but I’m gonna apply that.” JL Yeah, I love this. I feel like a lot of times people feel like if they’re in a path with a specific direction there’s no how do they move over. I love that you did that [KL yeah]. You took those and you applied them to a different direction. SWB I think there’s something else thought that maybe also is a parallel to what happens when you write a book which is like, you also have to be able to look at your past experience and have some faith that you maybe know more than you give yourself credit for, or that things that you learned in the past really do apply. And I think some of the time that takes some experience to be able to look at what you’ve done in the past and imagine it kind of coming together in a different way. I mean I know when it comes to writing, going back to thinking about from the author perspective: nobody goes into writing a book for the first time having ever written a book before — like you have to do it for the first time! Right? [Agreeable sounds from others] That’s — that can feel very daunting and I know it feels daunting for probably most people and I think one of the things that really helped me when I thought about writing a book was like, “What are the strengths that I already have that have led me here?” And I mean obviously part of it is like having subject matter expertise that somebody wants to publish a book about. Ok that’s one piece of the strengths. But it’s not just that. It’s not just like your knowledge, it’s actually also about having the ability to take something big and break it down into small chunks … the ability to kind of think about that macro picture of like what’s the whole arc of this thing going to be and then zoom in on the details. Or maybe it’s skills that people already have in things like just doggedly getting stuff done, checking things off the list, like project management skills are massive. Or perhaps it’s just, you know, you can start out thinking like, “I can do this because I know that I have a voice that’s really compelling for people and I’m gonna have to get much better at [laughing] project management,” which I think is true for a lot of authors. You know whatever it is, you have to be able to kind of identify like, “I don’t just have an idea or a topical expertise, I also have some skills that I can apply to this particular kind of problem.” And I think sometimes it’s like … I don’t know, I feel like we work in a culture that really is quick to label people as this or that and it’s like, you know, so you end up in these — these modes of thinking where you’re very defined by the job titles you’ve had before and it can be hard, I think, to remember that those are just combinations of skills and you could combine those skills in another way and end up with a totally different job title that you’re totally qualified for. [9:11] JL Yeah. I can’t think of like how many people in the past have been like, “I don’t really care what title you put on your LinkedIn, this is what you’re going to be doing here.” And I feel that’s like a common sentiment from employers sometimes. KL Yeah. One of the things I love about A Book Apart is that we really look for authors to have — to come with like not just potentially subject matter expertise but like a point of view. Right like some kind of way they’re going to approach or present the thing that they’re writing about that is different or has some kind of meaning that we really identify with. And, I don’t know, I will just say that you know as many doubts as someone might have about whether — whether they can write a book about something, or they are, you know, the right person to write a book about it. It’s like, “We haven’t read a book about that by you.” So I mean that’s a shameless plug to say that, you know, I love hearing from people about their book ideas so, please, write to us, but [laughs] — JL This episode is not sponsored by A Book Apart. KL [Laughs] It’s not! Sorry [laughs]. SWB Um no I think that um I think that that’s a really important thing to keep in mind because I know that going into whether it’s writing or speaking or just in general like kind of … putting yourself out there and talking about your profession and talking about things you know, trying teach other people things you know, it can often feel like — it feels very daunting if there’s other people have written stuff or said stuff before and I have to be totally new and original and then you start feeling like, “Well, gosh, everything’s already been said.” And of course it hasn’t. And you know for me it’s — I’m always thinking like, “What are the problems that I’m seeing out there that my peers are experiencing? And what are the issues that I think people should be talking about more than they are?” And then figuring out what that perspective is and once you have that perspective, I think things really click into place and you end up with a different kind of book, and a different kind of result than the kind of like “Insert Topic for Dummies.” Right? Like which is a different kind of book which might be helpful [KL right] for some people but [yeah] that’s such a limited view on what a professional book could be. Um you know I always think of it as like — I wanna influence how people think about their work and that’s — versus just saying, “I wanna teach them how to do a thing.” KL Yeah. [11:26] SWB I think that’s something that [laughing] Erika does really well, as well. I think that she definitely understands that teaching people about issues in design and research is also all about having that point of view and that point of view is informed by all of the experiences that she has both professionally and personally and I really value that when I read her work. KL Yeah, I mean, she really brings that and her personality to it. So, I mean, she’s also just really fun to read which is a huge bonus. SWB Well, speaking of her being fun to read, I think she’s also fun to listen to. Are we ready to hear from Erika? KL Yeah, let’s do it! [Music fades in.] From our sponsors JL [Music fades out] Whether you have a business, a project, or a podcast, a website is vital. Here at No, You Go, we use wordpress.com because it gives us the freedom and flexibility to share our work our way. Make your site your own when you built it on wordpress.com. You don’t need to do the coding or the design, the WordPress customer support team is there 24/7 to help you get your site working. WordPress offers powerful ecommerce options ranging from a simple and effective buy button to a complete online store. Plans start at just four dollars a month. Start building your website today! Go to wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent off any new plan purchase. That’s wordpress.com/noyougo for 15 percent your brand new website [music fades in]. Interview: Erika Hall KL [Music fades out] Erika Hall is a co-founder of Mule Design in San Francisco. She and I met when she was working on her first book, Just Enough Research, with us at A Book Apart and I had just joined the company. I have since been in awe of how Erika advocates for good design work through her own practice, that she generously shares her expertise, and how she does it all with fierceness and wit. Erika, we are so happy to have you on the show today. Welcome to No, You Go. Erika Hall Hi! Thank you. I’m very happy to be here. KL Yay! You co-founded Mule Design in 2001. How did you and your partner, Mike Monteiro, decide to start Mule? EH [Laughs] wow. The origin story [KL yeah] in that — the mist of time. Well we’d uh we’d been working together and … we had developed a, you know, as has become apparent: we have strong opinions about things, and each of us, independently, I think our entire lives has had strong opinions about things, and we were doing design consulting and we said, “Hey, we have strong opinions about how this should go and we would like uh be in charge of our own choices and especially choosing clients because, I think, that’s where our dissatisfaction with working for other people really came from is we saw that the clients you choose make you the sort of designers you become,” and we saw how those choices had been made and we were like, “Oh we don’t really — this work can be really, really hard and demands, to do it well, it demands a lot of commitment … at every level, really.” So we were like, “Ok we wanna choose our clients … and we wanna this control over how we work with them and control over the client relationship. Hey!! Let’s start a company.” So that’s sort of how it started. 14:40 KL How has running that company changed over time for you? EH Oh boy. Uh … we ourselves became less stupid, I think, because [laughter] when we started we really, really had no idea what we were doing. So the great part — and we talked to a lot of people uh doing our research before we started who had started companies to say, “What should we look out for?” And, “Do you have any advice?” But then over the course as we talked to other people running their own companies we really learned — it’s like what you learn when you grow up, between being a child and being an adult, is you learn that no adults actually know what they’re doing. We really learned that everyone running a company, like at every level, feels like they’re making it up as they’re going along. So, I think, our experience wasn’t unique or that unusual but over time we really found, you know, we’d get in these challenging situations and have this experience to fall back on, and the conversations with clients that used to be terrifying, all of a sudden I had all this experience, and we developed all this experience around working with organizations, and so that part became easier. And then over time we really found that the business has been changing because organizations are building their own internal design teams and so it has worked out, I think, well, in the sense that what we have become particularly good at … is also the set of things that are much more in demand which has to do with dealing with the organizations and creating the conditions for good design, not just providing design services. KL Were there any things that you ran up against that were really difficult for Mule or just challenging in a way that you were like, “How are we gonna help clients with this specific thing?” EH Oh boy. Um [exhales deeply] I mean the thing that makes the work most challenging is how humans make decisions. And what we’ve found is that sometimes we come in and we say, especially now that we say, “We’ve been doing this since late 2001.” We say, you know, “We’ve worked with organizations of every description, from a two-person startup to, you know, an enormous multinational organization.” And it all comes down to how the individual humans communicate and make decisions, that’s what makes a project go well or go badly. And the nature of people is that we actually — we hate change, right? This is something I talk about all the time: we’re creatures of habit. And we like to be comfortable. And doing new things, and going into territories that you don’t understand very well is really uncomfortable. And the thing that’s hardest for us, and the place that we still feel like, “How do we help you?” Is if people hire us and they say, “Oh we wanna do things differently, we wanna change, we wanna be innovative … but we don’t want to be challenged … and we don’t wanna change how we work as an organization.” And then there are limits to how much we can help them if they are still — if we say, “Ok we have to come to this and be really collaborative.” And they say, “Oh we wanna hold onto our fear and hold onto our hierarchy … and we still wanna make decisions based on what the person with the most power in the organizations prefers, rather than what the evidence supports,” then they’re really — there’s a limit … to like if the organ— if the people in the organization don’t want to engage at that level, there’s only so much we can do … because that’s what the work requires. 18:19 KL Speaking of, you know, just working with people and, [chuckles] you know, interaction with humans, like you’re really vocal on Twitter about a lot of things like design research, the political climate, and feminism. Have — do you feel repercussions from that? Or do you like worry about alienating clients or attracting trolls? EH Nope! [Laughs, KL joins in]. KL [Laughing] I mean how has that — I feel like being active there is [yeah] you know it’s a part of your work, I think, and it’s [mm hmm] a part of just not being able to separate politics from design and vice versa. Like, how do you deal with that? EH I mean it is a part — like we would not have like named our company Mule if we didn’t want to establish a certain [clears throat, chuckles] sensibility. And I — I have and I — this is something that I’ve spoken about privately but haven’t said publicly, and now I’m afraid I will say it, but who knows what will happen, is that uh … personally … I have [hesitates] not experienced bad repercussions from being online and being outspoken online. I don’t know why that is and I hope I’m not welcoming it now … but it’s — it’s sort of been a mystery because I say things and it’s fine. Uh we have gotten some repercussions from things Mike has said, particularly about guns, but those repercussions are — it — like I’ve learned a lot about how online reviews systems work … uh and the trolls have come at us. Like every place that we can get sort of a star rating, trolls have come at us to downvote us and so we’ve learned is that those systems work better or worse at um filtering out trolls. For example, Yelp is really good … for obvious they’ve really developed a practice about highlighting reviews that are more legitimate. Amazon is pretty good at this. Google is terrible! So if you google “Mule Design” you will see an amazing set of what I call fan fiction reviews … which — which describe scenarios that have never happened but because they’re indistinguishable, from Google’s perspective, from legitimate reviews, there is no way to remove them [KL right] and — and if you go on Amazon and you look at the reviews for Just Enough Research, they’re divided between — like they’re half five-star reviews and half one-star reviews, and the one-star reviews have nothing to do with the book, and everything to do with us being outspoken, particularly, I think, for things around um gun control. KL Right. SWB You know, Erika, that’s really interesting. Um I think both what you’re saying about not having felt like you’ve been particularly targeted in the way that women are so often targeted online for being outspoken, and I felt a little bit of the same where … I get some but I haven’t had the sort of like coordinated attacks or — or just overwhelming quantity of abuse that so many people I know, particularly women and then, of course [mm hmm], particularly the most marginalized women [yeah] have had, and I — I’ve wondered a lot about that myself too, and then I’ve been like, “Ok well, what does it mean for me to sit here and, like … wonder why I haven’t had more of that? Am I inviting it?” You know, “Should I knock on wood right now?” [Yeah] you know I think a lot of it, for me, I’ve thought about like, well what does that have to do with my level of like privilege and power and sort of, like, a sense of, like, do I seem to be better connected or better protected than the people who are getting more abuse? Is it dumb luck? I’m not totally sure but I’m really interested if you’ve thought about how that’s played a role in how you’re perceived? [22:07] EH [Inhales sharply] yeah! And one of the reasons I’ve been really reticent to say anything about this is because it feels like victim blaming to say, “Oh I’m doing something right! And the people who are … getting a lot of abuse are doing something wrong.” Like that is something I don’t believe in and don’t want to promote that idea in any way. But this is just been generally true in my offline life as well. So yeah, I don’t — I don’t know. I mean [KL yeah] maybe I am that personally terrifying … maybe that’s it. SWB I like to — I like to think that. I like to think that [EH definitely] — that people are a little scared of you and that maybe people are a little scared of me [yeah] and I’m very ok with that. EH Yup. Exactly. Like, “Take me on!” KL Right, if that protects you, that’s ok … Erika, one of the many things that I admire you for is that you talk about empathy as a piece of the design process, but actually also part of the working process, how we work with other people. Can you talk about why that’s so important? EH We don’t talk a lot — enough about empathy for our coworkers and colleagues, and this also ties into the work we do around gender bias and collaboration and all of the organizational stuff about design … is that so often you get in organizations where people treat each other terribly or have a lot of fear … about their colleagues or their — the leadership, and there’s a lot of politics. And so I think we really need to think about empathy for our coworkers and seeing the people that we go to work with every day as human beings. And that’s actually more difficult because it’s — a lot of times organizations in the way that they provide incentives or recognition, even though they talk about, “Oh! We’re a team-centered environment. Yay!” Are really incentivizing to be very competitive and terrible to one another, and that’s the part, I think, solving that … will really help … bring better things into the world. And you have to do that. You have to be able to be honest with each other, and so something that [sucks teeth] um I’ve talked [hesitates] about before and is uh, I think, a few people have been talking about the concept of psychological safety that Google really promoted after they did this project, Aristotle, to look at what made teams work. The idea that you have to feel comfortable … being vulnerable in front of your coworkers and you have to be — feel like you can admit you don’t know things and you can make mistakes and you won’t be attacked for that or diminished for that in the workplace is such an important concept and, I think, that’s — all designers should be looking more inward and looking at that context in which they’re doing their work. [25:02] KL I think about this in every corner of my life. I mean I think about it, you know, in my interactions day to day with just, like, people I’m, you know, working with or talking with or on the street, whatever. And [sighs] I just feel like the more we can do to — to, you know, propagate that, the better. Like if we can start to feel a little bit more vulnerable with each other, [sighs] I just feel like we can do better work. I mean I know that sounds cheesy but [yeah!][laughs]. EH It’s absolutely true and I think this works at every level, like this is how, I think, decisions should be evidence based and we should each other as individual humans with value. And I think the what’s going on politically … connects to how we are in our work lives, and how we are in our personal lives, and our neighborhoods. It’s all the same. It’s like if you’re acting based on fear and myth … um and you’re treating people as though they aren’t individual humans but part of a category that you can stereotype and demonize, that’s true in the workplace. If you’re talking about, “Oh designers versus engineers versus marketing people!” And it’s true in society. KL Yeah, completely. In a recent piece you wrote, actually, “The Nine Rules of Design Research,” which is awesome, the first thing you write is: “Get comfortable being uncomfortable.” What do you mean by that? EH This is something I found in talking to a lot of people and thinking about research after writing Just Enough Research is you hear about all of these … barriers to doing research, a lot of times it’s, “Oh that costs too much money to do a research study or it takes too much time.” And this is all cover for the fact that people are actually terrified of asking questions — and especially people who end up in, like, positions of leadership. To say like, “Oh, we don’t know this and we have to find something out, and I don’t have the answer,” is really scary and that’s nothing that we’ve been rewarded for our entire lives. And if you want to, you know, have a research mindset or just use evidence to make decisions, you have to be in a constant state of admitting that you don’t have all the answers. That has to be where you live in order to continue to learn. You have to walk in to work every day and say, “I don’t have all the answers,” and that just has to be kind of your mantra … and that’s terrifying and uncomfortable. It’s much more comfortable to say, “Oh I have the answer and I’m gonna hang onto this answer,” because you have certainty and certainty is really comfortable. And if you have — if you have a way of looking at things, you don’t want that to be challenged by new information. And that’s very uncomfortable. So if you start by saying, “Ok! I’m just going to be uncomfortable because I’m going to recognize that I have an opportunity to learn something new every day and I’m never going to be done,” then once you get comfortable with that mindset, then it becomes a lot easier to — to accept new information and have really good arguments and discussions with your colleagues about the best course of action, because it’s not going to take away that certainty that you need to cling to and defend. SWB Yeah, I’d love to dig into something that you mentioned a little bit: so when it comes to being vulnerable at work and sort of like having to have that start from within in order to get anywhere, something I’m curious about is how does somebody who maybe isn’t in a position where they have um a huge amount of power at their organization, like how do they find space to do that without sort of making themselves vulnerable in ways that are maybe more negative? I guess what I mean is if you don’t have a ton at work, showing up and kind of putting that vulnerability out there may not create — you know, you doing that by yourself is not going to work if the environment is not [chuckling] uh prepared for it and like so like what does somebody do about that to kind of try to make space for that in their life and in their work and foster that in a work environment that they don’t necessarily control? [29:09] EH That is a great question because it’s absolutely true that if you’re in a more toxic work culture and you admit you don’t know know something, right? Like right off the bat? Then that’s gonna be like fresh meat for the vultures sort of thing. The best way to handle that is to ask questions because I think there’s so much concern with making a good argument and offering a lot of reasons for things, and it’s much better — and this is something you can — I think you can do from any position but it’s still, in some organizations, risky. Uh to just ask. Like if somebody puts forward something with a lot of certainty and you’re like, “Huh! I’m not so sure about that.” Find a way to just ask — asking questions is really powerful and then you can help without yourself starting by saying, “Hey! I’m the person who knows the least around here.” You can create a culture of asking questions and that will kind of shake that sense of false certainty a little bit. KL You also started writing about the impact of gender bias in the workplace and how to be a good ally. Can you tell us … just about that and what made you write it? EH We started … doing a workshop around gender bias and the reason we started doing the workshop around gender bias, it came from the observation that we’ve been talking about gender bias in the workplace, well, for my entire life, but especially in like the last … uh 20 years it seems like the conversation has gone nowhere because we all recognize, “Oh! Huh! Especially in the sciences and in academia,” but, it turns out, in every industry there’s a tremendous amount of gender bias. And the thing I observed having, you know, worked in web-related things for the last 20 years is that it’s gotten worse for women. When I started out in my career, I felt totally supported. I felt like we were all learning things together. When I worked um … at — I started at a more technical position and when I was just learning things about um building websites and running web servers, I would hang out with the nerds. They would invite me to the LAN parties, right? Where you all get on your computer and shoot at each other, playing Quake, or whatever. And they — I had root on the server and that was fine and they would — they were like, “Oh you wanna learn more about Unix? Cool!” And … it seems like i the recent years it’s not that sort of paradise, apparently, that I experienced. And so we started asking the question like, “Why did it get worse?” Um and why is all of this training — cuz you’re like, “Oh people are talking about unconscious bias and we’re doing these trainings.” And I’m like, “This is not working,” and when we talked about it, the core problem we identified is that organizations were treating this like it was a knowledge problem. Like, “Oh this is just something people don’t know.” And they’d do these trainings that would say, “Hey, everyone! Did you know that people act out of these unconscious biases and stereotypes and that’s making it hard for people who are less well represented in the workplace to get fair treatment?” And then everybody goes to these trainings and they’re like, “Oh cool, so everybody does it. So I don’t have to change.” And we said, “Oh what if we … look at the problem another way?” And it really is a problem of changing habits, not just giving people new information. And once you look at the problem like that, it’s a much different problem and it’s much harder to solve in the sense that you can’t just put a thousand employees in a room, show a presentation, and say, “Go forth and be unbiased.” And uh and so we developed a training around, “Ok, how do we help women who are experiencing this in their workplace, do less work?” Right? Because women are often doing a lot more work to deal with the amount of bias that they encounter. And so we said, “Ok, we’ll do a workshop that says, ‘You can change — you can kind of change the habits around this and you can also personally do less work.’” And one of the comments we received was, “What about the guys? Why aren’t they participating in this?” And the reason is that if you’re in a position of — of power and privilege, you have no incentive to change your habits, to change the way things work. This is why, you know, you look at Apple and their diversity numbers are terrible. And they’re like, “Oh yeah yeah, we wanna work on that.” But why should they? They have billions of dollars and what they’ve been doing is really worked for them … but I recognize that there are a lot of men out there who do believe that gender bias is a bad thing because it, you know, it’s like they don’t feel like they need their mediocrity protected. So I wrote that piece to say, “Ok, if you’re one of the guys who recognizes that this is a bad situation and doesn’t feel threatened by people saying that it should change, here’s some really concrete things that you can do to support this type of change.” [34:25] KL I think back on earlier in my career and I had similar thoughts to what you were saying at the beginning of this and I look back on it and I’m like, “I don’t know if it was better.” Like I think that I felt more supported and I’m not sure that I actually was. Like I think it may just not have been a good enough or a big enough conversation at that point and the fact that it is way more out in the open and people who are afraid and have that fear of sort of like holding onto what they’ve, you know, the habits that they have had over the years are — that’s why that just seems like so much more uh glaring. SWB I think a lot about how at the beginning of my career I … did not think that much about some of those dynamics at work because I was really busy trying to like establish professional footing, and figure out what I was doing, and create some credibility, and some sort of space for myself to get things done. And as part of that, I worked with a bunch of dudes who I largely liked and I liked to be able to hang out with them and sort of feel like I was one of them and, you know, hang out at the beer bar, and … laugh at the dirty jokes and whatever. And that was fine and I mean like it wasn’t like a particular horror story or anything but, I think, one of the things that I’ve since very much realized for myself is that a lot of my sense of like, “Yeah ok this is fine,” was coming from a place of … subverting some things about myself in order to create space in an environment that wasn’t necessarily supportive to me and so it’s like I didn’t think that it was a big deal but I’ve since realized that there were a lot of pieces of myself that I had to turn off in order for myself to kind of fit in. And — and then at some point that became like not enough for me [yeah] and not acceptable to me. [36:20] KL Yeah it’s like we — we all had to do that because we had to like try to focus on doing the actual work, right? To get us to the next level or to, you know, start managing bigger teams or get into the meetings or whatever and it’s like, yeah, I totally agree with you, Sara. SWB Yeah so I wonder if it’s like it seems better, like it seems like it was better only because if you didn’t ask for enough, you know? [Laughing] like we weren’t ask— I wasn’t asking for enough, I would say. EH Yeah, I think that’s part of it and, I think, specifically just talking about web related things. Like when that all started in San Francisco, it was a more welcoming community because it was something — it was a new endeavor that wasn’t part of any industry that I would say was institutionalized enough to also have institutionalized sexism. So I really feel like it was welcoming to women, I don’t think it was ever particularly racially diverse. I will say that. But I think what happened is that there was sort of a — this web culture. This like nerdy, little web culture … that was sort of an alternative culture and then, I think, finance culture took it over. I think that’s also a part of it … because I think that’s really what’s changed … is that it’s not like, “Oh we’re doing this thing that makes no money! … that is cool and we’re figuring it out and it’s like a whacky little science project that people who like doing whacky little science projects like.” And then these companies became investment vehicles. And then I think that brought all of that “Wolf of Wall Street” bro culture into it. So I think I absolutely agree with what both of you have said in terms of like, “Oh! We were being the cool girls.” But I didn’t feel as much of that, I felt like, “Oh we’re all doing this neat thing and building this new world and — and having a fun time together,” to, “Oh! Here are people who want to use this to transfer wealth in huge ways and who cares what we’re actually building.” And so I think that is also part of it. KL So we are talking to you at a very, I think, exciting moment, um you have a brand new book coming out. Can you tell us just a little bit about that? EH Yeah, Conversational Design — it’s about using human conversation which humans have been doing for oh a hundred thousand years, kind of as long as we’ve been human, we’ve been conversing. And using that as a model for designing interactive, digital products and services, and really looking beyond the surface because I know everything around chatbots and the speakers you talk to you like the Alexa and Google Home — that’s really been operating on the surface and I think what people are finding now is that it’s not necessarily easier to talk to a system like that and so it goes — I try to go a little deeper to say, “Ok what makes it so easy? Like we’re having this conversation and it’s easy and natural. And what makes that work? And how can we look at that to say, ‘Oh how can we really make these systems work in a device independent that feels more human and humane?’” KL Well as your publisher, I’m very excited about it [laughter]. Um I also know that writing a book and that process is really fucking hard, what were some of the biggest challenges you encountered? [39:53] EH Whoo! Well 2017 just as a whole! That was really hard because well the genesis for this book was a set of things I was thinking about and talking about like ten years ago about language and the interface and all of that. So first there’s the idea that, “Oh this is going to be much easier than my first book.” That’s like the first myth that you get right out of the way [KL chuckles]. And then everything seemed to be changing in the industry so often around this stuff because I started with, “Oh I’m just going to talk about using language,” and then I felt like, “Oh I’ve gotta incorporate these things that are happening around messaging and AI and voice interfaces and things like that.” And then the 2016 election happened [laughing] um and then it felt very difficult to get it together to write a book about interaction design when the world was on fire, and that led to a lot of just sitting in my office, staring at my screen, not doing anything, and feeling terrible. And so that made it hard [KL laughs]. SWB I don’t think you were alone [laughter] in that I mean like I had literally that same problem, but I think everybody I know had some variation of that problem where it’s like, “Is what I’m doing even a thing anymore? Like who cares?” I think, Katel, you talked about this on a recent episode where you were like, you would think about something that you really wanted to do at A Book Apart, right? Like you talked about wanting to build out, you know, the marketing campaigns more effectively and then being like, “Well [sighs], does work even matter? [KL laughs] Do books matter?” [KL yeah] And of course books fucking matter. But it can feel sometimes like they don’t. KL And I think there’s that, you know, like we talked about with Eileen Webb in her interview there’s this like sort of overcast of are we feeling up to ourselves? Like are we feeling ok? And I know, for me, like I often underplay how much it affects me when I’m dealing with a health issue, you know, not just physically and mentally but emotionally, and I really feel like I get slowed down easily, and I used to not think that that was the case. Erika, you went through some health stuff in the last year too. How did you navigate, you know, going through that and healing and just trying to stay on top of running a studio, and writing a book, and just, you know, finishing? EH [Laughs] That was the icing on the glory that was 2017 is, yeah, I’m generally a pretty healthy person and I had a situation and I had to suddenly realize I had to have some pretty major surgery. I haven’t really talked about this much. So yeah, right when I was finishing the book, I was going through this stuff and … so I felt very, very lucky to be like where I am geographically and to have like to have the support and tools I have, and to have the health insurance I have. So it really was a like, “Ok, hey! It’s a thing I have to deal with.” And in some ways, it was great because it was so concrete … and um, and yeah, fortunately like Mike was super supportive and did a great job of hiding how he was freaking out. And it was just like a series of steps. And it’s one of those things like in crisis situations, like I get super matter of fact, like, “Ok. Here are the things that are happening. These things are happening now. Ok.” And so I did that and I was just lucky that everything went great because like you — bay area has the best healthcare in the world, because my insurance was good, because everything went super smooth, and the whole like kind of let’s call it “the ordeal” was like less than two months. [43:38] KL Mmm. Well, I have one last question: where do you find inspiration and optimism these days? EH What helped me, when things got really dark, is to like step away from the computer and just go to my grocer, and go to my dry cleaner, and have these like friendly interactions and say, “Oh this is really where life happens.” Like it’s really easy to get caught up in these — because right now, thanks to the internet, we can know about everything terrible thing going on in the world at all times. And so it’s like, “Oh hey! People are still like living their lives [laughs] and it’s ok in some places on the ground.” And then just with the people I know and the people who are finding the strength to do positive things and a lot of that is also in books, as Sara mentioned. Like books are really important! There are a lot of books that were written during really terrible times in history. Like you look at what was going on, you know, during the twentieth century … all of these like horrible wars and uprisings and then the fight for civil rights in America. And dealing with everything going on there and you’re like, “Wow! Throughout these periods which are arguably as bad or worse than what the crises that we’re dealing with now, people still found the strength and the ability to put something out there into the world that’s positive and enduring,” and I think looking at that is really fantastic. Because it’s so easy to react. Right? There’s so much to react to every single day. There are like ten horrible things to react to, that like pull you down into this really primal fear place [KL chuckles] and I think you find these ideas and these people that lift you up out of it. Man, I’ve started listening to Oprah’s podcast [laughs]. I highly recommend her conversation with RuPaul! All we watch in our household now is RuPaul’s Drag Race, and that really helps. And I listen to BBC In Our Time, which is a fantastic podcast where academics talk about, like, concepts in science, or notable thinkers, or periods in history, and it gives you that historical context, which I think can help crystalize—like, it helps to look backwards a little bit to think about positive ideas for the future, and get out of this corner of “everything is on fire and the world is ending.” KL Yeah. Well I’ve written down all of these recommendations and I’m going to do the same thing. Thank you so much for joining us. It was so great to talk to you. EH Oh thank you! I love talking with fantastic people such as yourselves! [Music fades in.] Fuck Yeah of the Week JL When we plan our shows, we talk a lot about what the Fuck Yeah of the Week’s going to be. And this week we were talking about a few different things. And the thing that kept coming to my mind was Emma Gonzales and the students’ work in the wake of Parkland. I’ve been following some of this work and @emmaforchange is her Twitter account and you start following this Twitter account and you start seeing all of these powerful voices … and all of these powerful thoughts that are coming out of … you know, the children and youth in our country right now. And, for me, that’s … so amazing to look at. And — and it does inspire a “Fuck Yeah!” and a, “Thank you.” A thank you to see that people are speaking out about this right now. There has been — I don’t know if any one of us can look at this and not get emotional but everything that’s been happening, and it’s not that this was the first that anything has brought up these emotions in our country, um gun violence is definitely nothing new. But I think [sighs] every time I see it, I get a little … the sigh is so heavy, I just don’t know what to do. Um I feel very lost, I think now, I think about my one-year-old son. And I think, “Fuck! You know?” Like you start like, “Should we homeschool? Should we move to Canada?” There’s like a gazillion thoughts that come through my head at all time and I just get like a little bit lost and a little bit um, not a little bit, a lot depressed. And like what do we do? What do we do for our kids? What do we do? And when I see this group of people that are fighting for themselves, that, to me … [sighs] … it makes me feel like I could potentially believe in something and that there might — that there will be change. [48:13] SWB Every time there’s a school shooting, I think about my friend, Teresa. My friend Teresa was one of my best friends growing up, and we eventually both moved to kind of different parts of town, so we were in different high schools. And in 1998 she was shot in a shooting at Thurston High School. Um she was shot in the head. And every time. Every time. Right? There’s a shooting in the news, I imagine [fighting tears] myself back at the hospital, visiting her, and talking to her mom at the ICU. I mean. and she was there for weeks, I mean she — she was like … this is such a terrible distinction to have to even make, but she was basically the most severely injured person who lived. I think a lot about her but I also think a lot about, what did I think and what did I go through during that time in my life? And I will be perfectly honest, it didn’t occur to me to protest. Like it didn’t cross my mind … I knew that … America’s gun culture was a problem. I understood that this was not okay or normal. I mean this was earlier, like this was before Columbine, even. I — I knew that, but it didn’t really occur to me that there was a thing that I might say or do about it beyond … beyond just saying like, “Wow, guns are fucked up,” to my friends. And beyond going to hospital and, like, being there. So I think a lot about like [sighs] how much presence of mind it takes from these kids to be able to do that at this moment, and I also think about sort of like what’s changed since then? Like what’s different in the world? And part of it is things like, you know, social media, and access to these tools to really get out to a lot of people really quickly. Part of this is the fact that there’s just been so many of these shootings in the time period between Thurston High School in 1998 and today. I mean that’s going to be 20 years ago this May. But I also think a lot about who these kids are able to learn from, and the kinds of techniques that they learned, and something I’ve been really — I’ve been really paying close attention to, and really thankful for, is that as these kids are stepping up and refusing to be silenced and — and really … doing remarkable work. So many of them have also said that they didn’t just come up with this on their own, that they learned tactics and techniques from people who’ve been doing organizing work, activist work for years, and specifically, you know Black Lives Matter … which did not get the kinds of positive publicity that these kids are getting and doesn’t mean these kids don’t des— like these kids deserve every single second of positive publicity for the work that they are doing. But I think it’s really important that they’re able to also say like, “We didn’t just make this up ourselves. Like there’s people who have done this before us.” And, you know, I think about how much different … my reaction might’ve been if I had had more of a connection to activist groups that existed then, and the work that they were doing, and the skills in organizing, and just sort of understanding the power of protest that I just didn’t know that much about. And so I’m — you know, I’m so — I’m so [sighs] sad that we are at this moment, and in terms of gun violence in this country, and in terms of like so many other issues, but I am Fuck Yeah excited at the kind of like way in which I think so many of us are getting more comfortable with protest, with pushback, with being vocal about the things that matter. I like to see so many people getting out of their comfort zone and sort of like stretching that muscle a bit. And being willing to stand up and say what is important to them. And it makes me hopeful that is a time that is like … hard to be hopeful during. [52:25] JL Yeah, agreed, I mean there was um, you know, students that were in Riverview Gardens High School in Saint Louis that did the walk-out and were told that they would not be let back into school. There was a tweet from David Hogg that said, “To those of you not let back into school. One: that’s a great college essay, and two: your schools will be on the wrong side of history, you won’t be.” KL The people who are saying, “This is going to go on your record, you’re going to be suspended, you’re going to be expelled.” Like, that’s not even going to be a thing if this doesn’t get solved. SWB Your permanent record is a myth, first off. KL Exactly. SWB Um, like guess what’s on my permanent record? Like, you know, like I got in a fight with Pauline Dungan in the sixth grade [laughter] and I got suspended and look at me now, motherfuckers! I’m fine. It’s fine. But I also — you know but yeah I think that it’s — it’s definitely all of these like fear tactics to try to kind of keep kids in their place. And I look at those kids and I’m like, “Man, those kids’ place is in the front!” Like, that is their place. They’re in their right place right now. KL They see straight through that fucking bullshit! That’s the thing, that’s one of the biggest powers they have. JL So thank you for everyone that is working on the march for our lives and for speaking out and for fighting for yourselves, and I hope that, you know, we all can find ways to fight for our kids also today, and find ways to constantly, you know, be advocates for ourself, and be advocates for those around us. SWB Fuck Yeah for the teenagers. Like … KL Yeah. SWB Fuck Yeah! KL Fuck Yeah! [53:55] SWB The kids are all right. KL That’s it for this week’s episode of No, You Go, the show about being ambitious—and sticking together. NYG is recorded in our home city of Philadelphia, and produced by Steph Colbourn. Our theme music is by The Diaphone. Thanks to Erika Hall for being our guest today. If you like what you’ve been hearing, please make sure to subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts. Your support helps us spread the word. We’ll be back next week [music fading in] with another great guest [music ramps up to end].

Erika Hall, co-founder of Mule Design, returns to the Inside Intercom podcast fresh from authoring a new book, Conversational Design. As voice and chat interfaces mature, she discusses the connection between human conversation how designers should think about interaction and interface design.

My good friend Erika Hall returns to the show. She’s a founder and principal at Mule Design, and author of the forthcoming book "Conversational Design." We talk about the role of designers as critical voices in the ethical decisions companies make and the morality of venture capital in sustainable business.

Erika Hall, co-founder at Mule Design on the Aurelius podcast Episode 17 highlights: - Use research and design to create products and systems that are more balanced - Where to start helping your company make a bigger impact with user research - “Startup” culture and why it can be very unhealthy and unproductive - Why some companies still aren’t doing user research and how you can help - How having shared goals boosts collaboration and creativity

Kyle & Jaclyn chat about Stranger Things, design approaches to personal sites, using improv to build better trust & communication on a team, & the importance of naming and language. Keep Ruby Weird Kyle on thoughtbot Blog Rocket Surgery Made Easy- Steve Krug Just Enough Research- Erika Hall A Script To Kickstart Your Jobs To Be Done Interviews JTBD Mattress Interview Mixed Methods Podcast Design Systems- Alla Kholmatova

J'espère que vous avez apprécié ce podcast et que désormais vous allez vous intéresser au design d'expérience utilisateur ! Si c'est le cas, voici une liste de ce dont je t'ai parlé durant le podcast : Livres : - "The design of everyday things" de Don Norman : http://amzn.to/2xGFzld - "La phase de recherche en webdesign" de Erika Hall : http://amzn.to/2w09X5i Medium (https://medium.com) : - Thinkink design by adobe : https://medium.com/thinking-design - UX Planet : https://uxplanet.org - Nick Babich : https://medium.com/@101 - JustInMind : https://uxplanet.org/@justinmind - José Torre : https://uxdesign.cc/@zecarlostorre Si vous appréciez le design web, ce podcast est surement fait pour vous ! Vous pouvez me suivre sur twitter : @romainp_design

Erika Hall interviews Government Affairs Committee Chair, Linda Laney and 2017 REALTOR® Association of Central Massachusetts President, Sarah Gustafson about REALTOR® Day on Beacon Hill coming up on June 14, 2017. Members can register for this event online http://www.cmarealtors.org/events-REALTOR-day-on-the-hill-2017.html or call Lisa 508-832-6600 to reserve a seat on the bus.

The O’Reilly Design Podcast: The connective nature of product management, “no work above, no work below,” and the importance of talking to people who aren’t your customers. This week, I sit down with Matt LeMay, product coach, consultant, and author of Product Management in Practice. We talk about the four guiding principles of product management, what he has learned about himself as a product manager, and how to conduct meaningful research. Defining product management To me, being a product manager is all about being the connective tissue, the glue that connects whatever the different roles are within your organization. The specific organizational roles might vary, depending on where you are. You might be working more closely with technical people. You might be working more closely with marketing people, but whoever those different players are, your job as product manager is to be the aligner in chief or translator in chief, the person who is ultimately responsible and accountable for everybody having a shared language and a shared sense of purpose. CORE product management skills The four guiding principles came out of the four CORE skills, which is an acronym for communication, organization, research, and execution. I wrote a piece on Medium a few years ago, which was my attempt to challenge the traditional three-way Venn diagram of product management with business, technology, and UX. Having worked at a lot of enterprises and companies where people might not actually be that close to the technology side or might not be thinking about user experience as a day-to-day concern, I felt like those three areas captured a common set of subject matter knowledge that product managers will encounter, but not the actual skills they'll need to connect between those different subject matter ideas. Some people commented and rightly pointed out that something seemed to be missing from it. That thing seemed to be an element of research, or the ability to actually glean information from the outside world. Erika Hall, in the book Just Enough Research, says that, "Research is just applied critical thinking," which I love as a way of defining research. I like using the word ‘research’ because it also makes it clear that it's not just about being smart; it's about actually doing the work of seeking out alternate perspectives, and explanations, and ideas. These four skills—communication, organization, research, and execution—each one comes with a guiding principle, and I stand by these four guiding principles. For communication, the guiding principal is clarity over comfort, which is really going back to what I was talking about earlier, about this idea that there are times as a product manager when you will have to state things that might seem painfully obvious or ask questions that you know are wading into really difficult political challenges for the organization, but if there is not absolute clarity in your team and in your organization about what people are working on and why, then you cannot succeed as a product manager. If people don't know what they're doing and why they're doing it, and know that really clearly, then it doesn't matter how good the thing is that you ship or how quickly you ship it; the team will eventually start to fragment and fall apart because that understanding is so fragile and so susceptible to miscommunication and to tomfoolery by people who are trying to steer the product direction one way or another. For the organization principle, we have ‘change the rules, don't break the rules.’ This was another one that took me a long time to understand. I come from music. I am not a process person. I think a lot of folks who start out as product managers are like, "Yeah. All this stuff is stupid. We shouldn't have 800 steps to do everything. We'll just work really fast. We'll move fast and break stuff, and it'll be awesome," but there's a downside to that, which is that when the rules don't work and people work around the rules, you're basically incentivizing rule breakers and people who are not communicating well. The people who figured out how to game the system accomplish the most, and the people who are trying to go through the system are dinged for not shipping enough software or not being performant enough in whatever way. For research we have to live in the user's reality, which is pretty straightforward, but also very difficult. When you work in an organization, you live in that organization's reality. That is your day to day. You believe the things people in that organization believe, and it's shockingly easy to become fundamentally misaligned with the reality of your customer, especially when the metrics are telling you you're doing an okay job, but your customers are actually not that engaged. Living in your customer's reality is about getting beyond just looking at isolated metrics, particularly vanity metrics, to understand your customers and really understand their perspective, their world view, how it's changing, how it's evolving, so you can continue to meet their needs as they change and evolve, rather than getting stuck in the way things have always been and the status quo of your organization. Finally, for execution, this is one one my favorite ones: no work above, no work below. This means that as a product manager, you have to do whatever it takes for your team to succeed. It's pretty well documented that there can be no work below you or beneath you as a product manager. Right? If you have to bring coffee and donuts to the team, that's what you do. If you have to learn how to do something that isn't super fun and exciting to you, that's what you do. Product managers who say, ‘That's not my job,’ or, ‘That's not something I like to do,’ do not generally succeed. Living in your user’s reality I'm a firm believer in qualitative research generally, but within that set of qualitative research, I'm a firm believer in talking to people who are not your best customers. I'm a firm believer in talking to people who are considered casual users or users who abandoned your product. There's a tendency, when companies do qualitative research, to over index on the power users and the good customers and to just keep building things for them, but when you talk about living in your user's reality, you're really talking about living in multiple realities for multiple users. In a lot of cases, the people you're talking to need to be the people you're most afraid to hear from or who you initially feel have the most tenuous and least passionate understanding of your project, because those are often the people who are going to make or break your product's success and who are going to be where your growth opportunities come from. When I talk about living in your user's reality, a lot of that has to do with getting outside of the closed feedback loop of looking for the vanity metrics that support that you're doing a good job and talking to the good customers who will tell you how much they love your product and also have a million product ideas. It's the people who don't really have any product ideas who are just like, ‘Yeah. I don't know. It's fine. Sometimes I use it. Sometimes I don't’—those are the people whose perspective you really need to understand the most because their perspective is probably the farthest away from yours. Not taking those people seriously, not considering them, is a very dangerous thing that I've seen a lot of product organizations do and fall into. It's funny. I was at a training with a financial services company a few weeks ago. We were walking through some qualitative research, and people were getting very tense, ‘Well, I'm talking to somebody, but they went totally off into left field, and they're not talking about my product anymore. They're talking about their life.’ I get that concern. Right? Because you're there to do a job, but there's an element, and this feels sort of esoteric, but I think it's true, there's an element of faith that goes into those kinds of conversations, where if you really trust and follow somebody's own line of thinking, there will be value in it, but if you go in trying to steer a conversation back to your assumptions or the things that you want to be true, that is exactly where the conversation will go. Related resources: Product Management in Practice—live online training course by Matt LeMay Product Management for the Enterprise—online video tutorial by Blair Reeves

The O’Reilly Design Podcast: The connective nature of product management, “no work above, no work below,” and the importance of talking to people who aren’t your customers. This week, I sit down with Matt LeMay, product coach, consultant, and author of Product Management in Practice. We talk about the four guiding principles of product management, what he has learned about himself as a product manager, and how to conduct meaningful research. Defining product management To me, being a product manager is all about being the connective tissue, the glue that connects whatever the different roles are within your organization. The specific organizational roles might vary, depending on where you are. You might be working more closely with technical people. You might be working more closely with marketing people, but whoever those different players are, your job as product manager is to be the aligner in chief or translator in chief, the person who is ultimately responsible and accountable for everybody having a shared language and a shared sense of purpose. CORE product management skills The four guiding principles came out of the four CORE skills, which is an acronym for communication, organization, research, and execution. I wrote a piece on Medium a few years ago, which was my attempt to challenge the traditional three-way Venn diagram of product management with business, technology, and UX. Having worked at a lot of enterprises and companies where people might not actually be that close to the technology side or might not be thinking about user experience as a day-to-day concern, I felt like those three areas captured a common set of subject matter knowledge that product managers will encounter, but not the actual skills they'll need to connect between those different subject matter ideas. Some people commented and rightly pointed out that something seemed to be missing from it. That thing seemed to be an element of research, or the ability to actually glean information from the outside world. Erika Hall, in the book Just Enough Research, says that, "Research is just applied critical thinking," which I love as a way of defining research. I like using the word ‘research’ because it also makes it clear that it's not just about being smart; it's about actually doing the work of seeking out alternate perspectives, and explanations, and ideas. These four skills—communication, organization, research, and execution—each one comes with a guiding principle, and I stand by these four guiding principles. For communication, the guiding principal is clarity over comfort, which is really going back to what I was talking about earlier, about this idea that there are times as a product manager when you will have to state things that might seem painfully obvious or ask questions that you know are wading into really difficult political challenges for the organization, but if there is not absolute clarity in your team and in your organization about what people are working on and why, then you cannot succeed as a product manager. If people don't know what they're doing and why they're doing it, and know that really clearly, then it doesn't matter how good the thing is that you ship or how quickly you ship it; the team will eventually start to fragment and fall apart because that understanding is so fragile and so susceptible to miscommunication and to tomfoolery by people who are trying to steer the product direction one way or another. For the organization principle, we have ‘change the rules, don't break the rules.’ This was another one that took me a long time to understand. I come from music. I am not a process person. I think a lot of folks who start out as product managers are like, "Yeah. All this stuff is stupid. We shouldn't have 800 steps to do everything. We'll just work really fast. We'll move fast and break stuff, and it'll be awesome," but there's a downside to that, which is that when the rules don't work and people work around the rules, you're basically incentivizing rule breakers and people who are not communicating well. The people who figured out how to game the system accomplish the most, and the people who are trying to go through the system are dinged for not shipping enough software or not being performant enough in whatever way. For research we have to live in the user's reality, which is pretty straightforward, but also very difficult. When you work in an organization, you live in that organization's reality. That is your day to day. You believe the things people in that organization believe, and it's shockingly easy to become fundamentally misaligned with the reality of your customer, especially when the metrics are telling you you're doing an okay job, but your customers are actually not that engaged. Living in your customer's reality is about getting beyond just looking at isolated metrics, particularly vanity metrics, to understand your customers and really understand their perspective, their world view, how it's changing, how it's evolving, so you can continue to meet their needs as they change and evolve, rather than getting stuck in the way things have always been and the status quo of your organization. Finally, for execution, this is one one my favorite ones: no work above, no work below. This means that as a product manager, you have to do whatever it takes for your team to succeed. It's pretty well documented that there can be no work below you or beneath you as a product manager. Right? If you have to bring coffee and donuts to the team, that's what you do. If you have to learn how to do something that isn't super fun and exciting to you, that's what you do. Product managers who say, ‘That's not my job,’ or, ‘That's not something I like to do,’ do not generally succeed. Living in your user’s reality I'm a firm believer in qualitative research generally, but within that set of qualitative research, I'm a firm believer in talking to people who are not your best customers. I'm a firm believer in talking to people who are considered casual users or users who abandoned your product. There's a tendency, when companies do qualitative research, to over index on the power users and the good customers and to just keep building things for them, but when you talk about living in your user's reality, you're really talking about living in multiple realities for multiple users. In a lot of cases, the people you're talking to need to be the people you're most afraid to hear from or who you initially feel have the most tenuous and least passionate understanding of your project, because those are often the people who are going to make or break your product's success and who are going to be where your growth opportunities come from. When I talk about living in your user's reality, a lot of that has to do with getting outside of the closed feedback loop of looking for the vanity metrics that support that you're doing a good job and talking to the good customers who will tell you how much they love your product and also have a million product ideas. It's the people who don't really have any product ideas who are just like, ‘Yeah. I don't know. It's fine. Sometimes I use it. Sometimes I don't’—those are the people whose perspective you really need to understand the most because their perspective is probably the farthest away from yours. Not taking those people seriously, not considering them, is a very dangerous thing that I've seen a lot of product organizations do and fall into. It's funny. I was at a training with a financial services company a few weeks ago. We were walking through some qualitative research, and people were getting very tense, ‘Well, I'm talking to somebody, but they went totally off into left field, and they're not talking about my product anymore. They're talking about their life.’ I get that concern. Right? Because you're there to do a job, but there's an element, and this feels sort of esoteric, but I think it's true, there's an element of faith that goes into those kinds of conversations, where if you really trust and follow somebody's own line of thinking, there will be value in it, but if you go in trying to steer a conversation back to your assumptions or the things that you want to be true, that is exactly where the conversation will go. Related resources: Product Management in Practice—live online training course by Matt LeMay Product Management for the Enterprise—online video tutorial by Blair Reeves

Erika Hall wants us to get one thing straight: getting research right isn’t about the method you choose. It’s about gathering research to make the right design decisions for your business. Hear Erika’s ideas for how to bake research into the product design process. And why every organization needs a “team philosopher.” Buy Erika’s book: https://www.amazon.com/Just-Enough-Research-Erika-Hall/dp/1937557103 Follow Erika on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mulegirl Follow Rosenfeld Media on Twitter: https://twitter.com/rosenfeldmedia

Intercom Director of Brand Design Stewart Scott-Curran sits down with Erika Hall, Co-Founder and Director of Strategy at Mule Design. They chat about the importance of language in design, the role of trust in a client-designer relationship, why research simply isn’t optional, and more.

Erika Hall joins the podcast and we discuss the findings from Google's Project Aristotle. What makes a team perform it's best? What qualities do successful teams share? It's probably not what you think. (This is a sort of prototype we recorded a number of weeks ago, but it's a great conversation, so we're adding it as a sort of bonus episode. Enjoy!)

Erika Hall is the co-founder of Mule Design, and the author of “Just Enough Research” - a handbook for improving design with smart, effective user research. Erika uses business goals to focus a project - and targeted customer insights to inform the design. She's got a big bag of research techniques - and knows which ones to pull out to get the job done. If you're into customer-centered design, Erika's work is right up your alley. Check out the episode notes for links and videos featuring Erika' work.

Cos’è la UX? Lo sai veramente o fai solo finta di sapere cosa sia la user experience?Vuoi scoprire come migliorare l’interaction design del tuo prodotto e non sai da dove cominciare?Stai pensando di buttarti su un nuovo progetto e vorresti avvalerti di uno user experience designer per farti dare una mano?La puntata di oggi è fatta apposta per te. Per rispondere a queste domande ho intervistato Manuele Capacci, uno UX Designer che vive in Italia e che ha maturato la sua esperienza in progetti internazionali.Manuele Capacci lavora come consulente di product design per startup tecnologiche in Europa e negli Stati Uniti. É specializzato in prodotti digitali e in particolare applicazioni mobile native. Aiuta gli imprenditori ad impostare il giusto processo di design e a fare crescere il prodotto con particolare attenzione agli utenti. ### Cos’è la UX? ###UX sta per User Experience, esperienza utente. Semplificando un po’, il concetto di base è che ogni volta che le persone entrano in contatto con un prodotto o un servizio, si viene a creare un’esperienza, ed è questa esperienza che effettivamente ha valore per chi utilizza il prodotto.### NOTE ###Puoi seguire Manuele Capacci sui suoi account:Twitter: @ManueleCapacciLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelecapacciIl libri citati durante la puntata sono:“Don’t make me think” di Steve Krug http://amzn.to/22nKjTi“Rocket Surgery Made Easy” di Steve Krug http://amzn.to/1Pkiztw“La caffettiera del masochista” di Donald A. Norman http://amzn.to/1InthOK“Lean UX, applying Lean Principles to Improve User Experience” di Jeff Gothelf http://amzn.to/1JrSrXj“Just enough research” di Erika Hall http://amzn.to/1PiucPV### PODCAST ###HTTP://www.MERITA.BIZ/PODCASTSottoscrivi il podcast su:iTunes: http://j.mp/MERITA-ITUNES Stitcher:http://j.mp/MERITA-STITCHER Spreaker:http://j.mp/MERITA-SPREAKERSoundcloud:http://j.mp/MERITA-SOUNDCLOUD##### WWW.MERITA.BIZ #####

Traditionally, user research has taken on more of a scientific identity. You would do usability testing and research, take a ton of notes, and then compile all of your findings into a report. The effectiveness of that research depended on whether anyone read the report, and then if they could do anything actionable with that data.

This week we caught up with Erika Hall, co-founder of Mule Design and author of Just Enough Research. We dive deep into a handful of topics, from user research to gender in tech, from the Apple Watch to the evolution of San Francisco culture - we had a lot of fun recording this one!

Yes, it is I, Marc Hershon and, as your curator for Succotash, the Comedy Podcast Podcast, I'd like to welcome you to Epi88. I draw cartoons, too! Come on in, make yourself comfortable. Help yourself to whatever’s in the fridge while I show you what we’ve got in store for you this episode… First off, thanks to all the Succotashians who Liked and/or commented on the picture I posted on Facebook and Google+ last week of me holding my first place award for Editorial Cartoons from the California Newspaper Publishers Association! (I draw a weekly cartoon for the Half Moon Bay Review here in Northern California…) Secondly, I don’t know if you bothered to listen in on our “halfisode” Epi87.5 last week, which was just me, rambling, on my way up Interstate 5 from Los Angeles. But this week it’s clips. Clips, clips, clips. Clips from comedy podcasts from around the world. Some I collected. Some were harvested by our ace associate producer Tyson Saner, and a few were sent in by comedy podcasters themselves.  (BTW, if YOU’RE a comedy podcaster or if you’re a listener who has a suggestion for a comedy podcast we should clip, just drop me a note at marc@SuccotashShow.com and I'll hunt it down!) But it's not just clips this time out. We also have our usual features back in place this episode, including a double dose of our Burst O’ Durst segment with comedian Will Durst, the 10 Most Active Shows In The Stitcher Top 100 Comedy Podcast List, the TweetSack segment AND a brand new Henderson’s Pants commercial! Handy Tip: You can find link to the homesites for the shows we feature on each episode by clicking on the title for each show in the blog from our website, at http://SuccotashShow.com The 10 Most Active Show on Stitcher's Top 100 Comedy Podcast List AT                                                                                MOVED12. The Bugle                                                                +1021. How Did This Get Made                                            -1036. Jay & Silent Bob Get Old                                          - 839. This Week in Blackness Radio                                    +747. The Champs w/Neal Brennan & Moshe Kasher           +2550. You Made It Weird w/Pete Holmes                            + 966. Sawbones: A Marital Tour of Misguided Medicine       +1668. Jim Florentine’s Metal Comedy Midgets                    + 881. Pointless: With Kevin Pereira                                   +5091. The Artie Lang Show                                                 -7 Gilbert Gottfried’s Amazing Colossal PodcastThis past week, for This Week In Comedy Podcasts for Splitsider.com AND for Huffington Post, I reviewed the premiere episode of Gilbert Gottfried’s Amazing Colossal Podcast. It’s just Gilbert in his New York apartment, along with co-host Frank Santopadre, interviewing a different person for about an hour. Their first guest was Dick Cavett. Yeah, THE Dick Cavett. And it’s a good show – funny, touching, thoughtful, sophmoric at times and also occasionally a tad politically incorrect, which I think is great! John Dredge’s "Nothing To Do With Anything Show"I’ve featured the very funny John Dredge’s Nothing To Do With Anything Show before but figured, since he just concluded his 3rd season of the show, I’d play a little piece so you can see why you’d want to go binge-listen the six episodes that constitute the third series. The Jockularity ShowI had a shout out from The Jockularity Show podcast a few weeks ago on the Tweeter, along with a request to check out their show, which is part of the Torn By Sports blog out of Utah. Some of you Succotashians may recall how I stumbled through the most recent Fantasy Football season run by Chris Lanuti at the Broadcast Basement podcast. Clearly, I am not a “sports guy” and the Jocularity Show is just a clearly a “sports show”. They do get into some funny stuff, which qualifies them for this show but for a non-jock, I had kind of a tough slog making it through a couple of pretty straight ahead interviews. But that’s entirely on me – if YOU enjoy sports, you’ll most likely be right there with hosts Rick Aaron and David Wilbur. In this clip, they’re joined by their producer Allen as they talk about “walkup music” – the tunage that the players were being introduced to during the recent NFL draft. Geeks With Wives & CapesBeen hearing a lot about this podcast called Geeks with Wives & Capes, mainly because a couple of friends of Succotash have guested recently, namely Phil Leirness from Chillpak Hollywood Hour and Ethan Dettenmaier from Combat Radio. So I was glad to get this clip, harvested by our Associate Producer Tyson Saner, from Ethan’s visit with Josh, Matt & Joe. The Crunch Time ShowIn Epi87, I featured a clip of myself playing the Random 5 questions game on the Crunch Time Show podcast. I believe I mentioned that I would play a clip from the main part of the show at my next opportunity, which happens to be now. Here are hosts Wayne “Crunchy” Baggins and his wife, The Scully, talking about an embarrassing story around a cassette tape that haunts him to this day. What A Pair of Trousers!Back in Epi84 we featured a clip from The Angry Chimp Show. This week I got a note and a clip from Stu of that podcast, informing us that the Chimp is taking a bit of a break. In its place, sort of, comes a new show entitled What a Pair of Trousers!, featuring Stu and three pals who met back in high school: Ben, Matt, and Rich. Stu says it’s the perfect opportunity for four old friends to get together and talk rubbish. Old Enough to Know BetterTyson Saner has clipped us a slice of a podcast I’ve not heard of before called Old Enough To Know Better. Maybe the best way to sum up the gist of this show is to read their iTunes description: Perspective is everything and we're both seeking it and offering what we can. We're looking for some sanity and a way forward in the world, perhaps you can help? Sometimes digressive and silly, sometimes focused and serious, always honest and aiming to be more. Our taste features host Eden chatting up guests AJ – from the podcast Sup Dude, and Jason about the mechanics of stand-up comedy and storytelling on stage. Like I’m An IdiotIsn’t it great when a podcaster hits on a simple formula that works? The kind that makes other podcasters kicks themselves for not having thought of it before? Josh Cagan has done it with his Like I’m An Idiot podcast, in which he is The Idiot and he ask smart people – i.e. his guests – to explain things to him. In his Epi29, he wanted guest Erika Hall to help him understand “What the fuck is going on in San Francisco?” Picnic Time PodcastAssociate Producer Tyson Saner picked this of the Picnic Time Podcast which, I guess, is related to but not the same as the Picnic Time Radio Morning Morning Show. One host, Adam, is on both, but Jesse is only on the podcast. I think. I’m confused. Anyway, Adam and Jesse talk in this clip about an interesting revelation, so to speak, that has come to life about the late Pastor Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church. In wrapping up Epi88, just a reminder that we tweet @SuccotashShow on Twitter and you can also like us on Facebook. Remember that if you’re shopping Amazon, please come to http://SuccotashShow.com first and click on the Amazon banner at the top of the page. You end up in the same place but when you buy something, we get a little taste from Amazon. We’ve got a some interviews coming up in the next few episodes so that’ll be fun. And we’re getting ever nearer to our big Epi100 End of Season One Extravaganza! In the meantime, if there’ s a comedy podcast out there that we haven’t covered yet, please drop me a line at marc@succotashshow.com and tell me about it. And remember that you can get each episode of Succotash two days before anyone else by subscribing to us at https://www.connectpal.com/succotash. Talk to you soon but, until I do, thanks for passing the Succotash! — Marc Hershon

Mike and Jessie are joined in the studio by renowned author Erika Hall. We discuss Jessie’s visit to the XOXOfest, the @horse_ebooks reveal, and the passion of Dan Sinker. And we definitely say something about Glenn Fleishman, but I’m not saying what because I’m going to be a dick and make him listen to the whole thing. And you may miss it if you go at 2x speed, Glenn. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/lets-make-mistakes/message

What is design research, why is it valuable, and how can you work research into the planning of your project? Erika Hall, author of the new A Book Apart book Just Enough Research, joins Jen Simmons to explain.

Download this episode, in which Ian and Andrey talk about a gauntlet of client work, consulting, competitors, talking about your product early, stock options and bonuses, a little bit on wall street programming, hiring, contributing to open source, life after programming, and movies! Links: Bitsplitting Podcast – episode 2, with Erika Hall of Mule Design Studio. Shipping an Empty Box – Andrey’s blog post about supporting large companies. Helpspot – Ian’s product. Snappy – Ian’s newest product. Uberdeck – Andrey’s upcoming product. Snappy on Dribble Bill Cosby, “Himself” – full stand-up special Code Rush – full documentary Jamie Zawinski Viola web browser Eric Sink – wrote the browser that eventually became Internet Explorer DNA Lounge – nightclub owned by Jamie Zawinski DNA Pizza – pizza joint owned by Jamie Zawinski The Living Room in NYC Comedians In Cars Getting Coffee – Seinfeld’s online show Startup.com – full movie 12 Weeks with Geeks – full movie Pirates of Silicon Valley – full movie Triumph of the Nerds, Part I, Part II, Part III – full documentary in 3 parts. Good Eats Bill Nye the Science Guy John Carmack’s QuakeCon 2012 Keynote – full video Swamp Loggers Wall Street Scarface The Godfather The Matrix Mad Men Breaking Bad Grand Theft Auto Scarface video game Euro Truck Simulator Game Dev Story, an iPhone game where you run a game software company Whites Black Books DeviantArt PasteVault – Ian’s open source project. Laravel Kudos – Ian’s open source blog engine TurnJS – Javascript library Packery – Javascript library Tipped – Javascript component Highcharts – Javascript library id source code Dave Winer

I discussed the philosophies of design strategy, user experience and -- well -- *philosophy* with Erika Hall, the Director of Strategy at Mule Design in San Francisco. The lesson learned? Don't try to talk deeply about philosophy when you didn't pay that much attention in your philosophy classes, kids.