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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 28, 2023 59:54

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/CaDhqixI0jsExposing abuse and corruption can be a thankless job. Powerful figures doing wrong often deny and attack those exposing them. And their supporters often join suit—attacking the messenger, rather than holding their leader accountable. This edition of The Roys Report features a very personal talk from Restore Conference founder and journalist, Julie Roys, delivered at the recent event this past October. It's centered on one question: why continue reporting, advocating, and shining a light when doing so comes at such a high personal cost? Journalists like Julie often ask this question—and so do many abuse survivor advocates, whistleblowers, and allies. The work can be grueling, and the pay off at times seems minimal. But in this talk, Julie shares not just her own struggles, but also the convictions she's gained over years of exposing abuse and corruption. If you're struggling to keep fighting for truth and justice, this talk will not just encourage, but inspire you to keep going. Guests Julie Roys Julie Roys is a veteran investigative reporter and founder of The Roys Report. Julie previously hosted a national talk show on the Moody Radio Network, called Up for Debate. She also has worked as a TV reporter for a CBS affiliate in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and as a newswriter for WGN-TV and Fox 32 Chicago. Julie's work has also appeared in Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Federalist, and The Christian Post. She and her husband, Neal, live in the Chicago area and have three children and two grandchildren. Show Transcript SPEAKERSJulie Roys Julie Roys 00:04Exposing abuse and corruption can be a thankless job. Those doing wrong often deny and attack those exposing them. And their supporters often join suit, attacking the messenger rather than holding their leader accountable. So why continue reporting and advocating and shining a light? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And the question of why not quit is one of those questions I’ve asked myself repeatedly over the years. And I know it’s not one that just journalists ask; many abuse survivor advocates, whistleblowers and allies do too. The work can be grueling and the payoff at times can seem minimal, so why not quit? Why keep fighting Goliath when the odds continually seem stacked in our opponent’s favor? Julie Roys 00:52 What you’re about to hear is a very personal talk I gave at the 2023 RESTORE conference. The past 18 months have been especially hard for me. And there have been times when I’ve struggled profoundly with whether I can stay in this work without it deforming my soul. If you’re a survivor, or whistleblower or an ally, or maybe all of the above, you’ve probably experienced some of the same struggles. You may be struggling today. In this talk. I don’t pretend to have all the answers. I’m still processing a lot of this stuff myself. But what I do is share my journey and why ,despite the difficulties, which are many and real, I’m not quitting. You’ll hear my talk in just a minute. Julie Roys 00:52 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Curt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys 02:37 Well, again, here’s the talk I gave a RESTORE 2023 on why not quit? Well, at the first RESTORE conference in 2019, I announced from this stage that we were experiencing an unmistakable move of God to purify his church. James MacDonald had just been exposed as the bully and hypocrite that he was and removed from Harvest Bible Chapel. Bill Hybels was exposed as a sexual predator, and people were finally believing the women, and revelations about Jerry Falwell, Jr. were just beginning to come out. And then donors alleging fraud won a massive $37 million dollar settlement from Gospel for Asia. Clearly God was cleaning house right? And over the next few years, the revelations just kept coming. Jerry Falwell, Jr, resigned from Liberty University amid shocking allegations of sexual and financial misconduct. Ravi Zacharias was shown to be a serial sexual predator, and RZIM was shut down. Hillsong began to implode beginning with Carl Lentz and his sexual misconduct going all the way to Brian Houston, and his sexual misconduct. And then I reported probably the biggest investigation I’ve ever done. I reported on John MacArthur, the supposed greatest expositor of the 20th century, that he had a pattern of shaming abuse victims and protecting their abusers. With story after story after story, the evil infecting the evangelical industrial complex, was being exposed and routed out. And probably more than any other time in my life, I felt like I was right in the middle of this remarkable thing that God was doing. Well, then I experience the most virulent backlash I have ever experienced. An army of YouTubers loyal to John MacArthur just kept hitting. They couldn’t go after the facts of my stories, so they went after me. And I became the poster child of the angry feminist proponent of CRT, wokism – it didn’t matter whether I adhere to any of these things. They republished it anyway. And John MacArthur, despite everything I’d reported on him, he didn’t get canceled. He went and spoke at the Getty’s Sing conference. At the G3 conference, the Puritans conference. Sure, his reputation has been tarnished a bit. But those loyal dug in. Well, then some anonymous Twitter accounts loyal to John MacArthur found some objectionable content in a book that I wrote in 2017. And soon I wasn’t just facing backlash from John MacArthur and those loyal to him, but from my own tribe, and from the survivor community. And people were hurt, and they were confused. And like I said, yesterday, some of that criticism was valid and deserved, and I didn’t get the power differential and someone a relationship with somebody that had been in a ministry that I had led, and that was my own responsibility. And I had assigned fault where it didn’t belong, where I should have taken responsibility. But some of the criticism was cruel. And it was patently false. And it was shockingly personal. And if you’ve never been in the midst of a public controversy like that, it’s kind of hard to explain. But it is a unique kind of awful. At least when you’re a private person and people talk about you, they have the decency to do it behind your back. But when you’re a public person, they do it in front of your family and your children and your friends and thousands and thousands of other people. And it was traumatic for me, I know it was even traumatic for some of you. And then perhaps smelling blood in the water, Protestia, a so-called discernment blog, lacking hardly any journalistic integrity, announced that they had a story that was going to expose me as a fraud. And on a Friday, they tweeted, were blocked but someone tag at reached Julie Roys, and give her a heads up in our next article about her revealing some of her shenanigans is really, really gonna sting. And then they published this video: 07:05 I said at the very at the very beginning, that we have some more information coming out about Julie Roys that I’m hoping to have out to you by Monday but suffice it to say it’s going to blow up the facade of Julie Roys as an ethical investigative journalist. We have some information about some very unethical, I would say immoral, but certainly unethical., things that Julie Roys has been caught saying and doing and promoting that we’re going to be releasing this information, hopefully by Monday. So, stay tuned to Protestia.com for that information. I want to thank you all again for joining me tonight on this live stream. Julie Roys 08:06 So that came out on a Friday, so I had the whole weekend. I’m on pins and needles a whole weekend and I’m like what awful thing did I just do? I have no idea what I just did. So, I’m waiting for this to come out and on Monday Protestia published this menacing tweet. Apparently the story had been delayed a day. But will come out the next morning. Yet on Tuesday instead of publishing their big expose on me Protestia had to publish a retraction saying they almost got conned by an abuse survivor. Of course, they’ve got conned because they went forward with all of these allegations on Friday. Apparently a woman had fabricated some emails that she said were from me. And in these emails, I allegedly said that she should go forward with 300 allegations against a well-known Christian figure whether they were true or false. And sadly, Protestia didn’t do the very basics, the number one thing that you do when someone’s accused, is you go to the accused, and you ask for their side of the story. They didn’t do that until Tuesday, when they started to recognize some things might be going wrong. And they had accepted these fabricated emails as fact for about three days and went forward with those, again, libelous, and slanderous allegations,. The experience was unnerving, especially in the middle of what I was dealing with. But it wasn’t the last hoax I faced either. Someone close to James McDonald came after me with wild allegations that I covered up a child sex abuse scandal at Harvest Bible Chapel when I was investigating it. Nothing could have been further from the truth. Yet, some survivor advocates picked up that story as well and they began tweeting and retweeting it. And I had to track down a story that was three years old and find the emails and the texts and go back to the primary sources and publish my own story, showing that these allegations were false. And whatever momentum that I had going into all of this was completely eradicated. I was just trying to keep my head above water. Emotionally, I was spinning. It was so, so tough. Julie Roys 10:21 And then people started talking about whether or not I was going to quit. In fact, I got a call from a colleague of mine, and was actually the only journalist who called me in the midst of this. And he said, Julie, I am watching what’s going on online. And he’s like, are you all right? And it was really sweet. And I don’t even know what I said. I was playing blubbering something. But it was a sweet call. But at the end of the call, he’s like, hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but if you do resign, can I have the interview? I was a little taken aback, but then I got a call from a former blogger, who I got to know really well through an investigation. And he gave me permission to share what I’m going to share with you. But he just asked that I call him by his first name, his first name, Scott. And so, he said something very similar. He said, Julie, I’m watching what’s happening to you on Twitter right now. And I just have to tell you as your friend, like, this is painful. He’s like, You don’t owe me an explanation. I know you. I know your character. But don’t take this the wrong way. But have you thought about quitting? And he’s like, I love you and I care about you, and I’ve actually jotted down some reasons that I think you should consider. And would you be willing to just hear me out on this? And I love Scott. I respect Scott. And I knew the heart that he was saying this was, so I said, Sure. Scott, go ahead. Tell me what you think. And he said, one, I noticed that you’re taking all this friendly fire. See, usually, my accusers are the defenders of whatever church leader it is, that’s caught in the crosshairs of some investigation. But now, my accusers were my own tribe. It was people, some people from the survivor community. And let me just preface what Scott said, by saying, I have found that the survivor community and the people in this room, that some of you have been some of the most gracious people that I know. And the love that I was shown from some of you was so touching. And I have so much respect for survivors. Because survivors have been through hell, and they’ve come out with this beauty. So many of you. And so, it really was a small segment of the survivor community that was really being nasty. But he said, Julie, given the way that you’ve been treated by your own tribe, why would you keep reporting their stories? And I know some of you know what that feels like. Because you’ve tried to help with something. And you stepped out and you’ve messed up in some way and the backlash, and what happened to you when you did that, made you feel like I don’t even want to do that again. Like why try? And that’s how I felt a little bit at that point. Julie Roys 13:22 But then he said, secondly, maybe your work to expose abuse and corruption is done. And by this, he didn’t mean there weren’t any more abusers out there or anymore corruption. What he was saying is that there’s a pattern. In fact, there’s so much of a pattern, you just see it playing out again and again, and again. It’s like Wade Mullens said in his book, something’s not right. They’re all using the same playbook. They all use the same tactics. He’s like, have you thought that maybe, just maybe, those who have ears to hear have heard and the rest won’t ever listen to it anyway. But lastly, and this is the one that really kind of hit home. And he said, Julie, do you ever wonder in what ways reporting on all of these vile things in the church and living in this constant pressure cooker is molding you and forming you into someone that you don’t want to be? And then he quoted Friedrich Nietzsche, who said, Whoever battles monsters should see to it in the process, that he does not become a monster himself. And when you look long into the abyss, the Abyss also looks back at you. And then Scott recalled ways that when he was blogging, that he’d start to see how this was affecting him negatively. That’s part of the reason he stopped doing it. And he said, Julie, don’t take this as a confrontation. I’m not saying that I see this in you yet. But when I read some of the comments sometimes at your website, that’s when I begin to see it. He’s like, It’s like Grace is disappearing. And friend, you know the verse in the passage in Corinthians, If I speak with the tongues of angels, but have not love, I am nothing but a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal or in my situation, if I expose every predator pastor and defend every vulnerable victim, but have not love, I am nothing. And I know again, my experience is unique in some ways, but it’s not. Also, some of you have been reporting, maybe not as a journalist, but in other ways have been trying to expose abuse and corruption in the church for far longer than I have. Some of you that have spoken at this conference have suffered far worse than I could even imagine, for standing up for the truth. And you may not be journalists, although there’s some in this room. But you’re bloggers and podcasters and whistleblowers, lawyers, pastors, allies, advocates. And you may today profoundly feel betrayed by those that you expected to support you. A sense of futility about the work that you’re doing. And there are moments when you feel like your work, or advocacy is molding you into someone that you don’t want to be. And you may be wondering, is it worth it? Should I just get out of the trenches? Should I stop doing this and maybe just go to Colorado and hike mountains every day? Julie Roys 16:39 I have wrestled with all these things profoundly. And I don’t speak today as someone who has all the answers. I am in process like a lot of you. But I do feel like God has spoken to me with some resolution on some of these things. And I just want to share with you kind of what God’s been saying to me, in the hopes that it’ll help you as you wrestle through some of these things as well. Julie Roys 17:05 So let me talk about the first issue that Scott raised, and that’s betrayal. I mean, why report or advocate or serve or pastor on people who may at any point turn on you? First, let me say, it goes both ways. I’ve been hurt by some survivor advocates, some of them innocently, some of them maliciously. But I’ve hurt some people in this room. I’ve had to ask forgiveness for some people in this room. And they’ve had to show me grace. And so, in some ways, there’s really nothing unique about this. If you’re working with people, we’re going to disappoint each other, right? We’re going to let each other down, we’re going to have to ask for forgiveness, we’re going to have to extend grace. But this is I think the question itself had an assumption in it, and that is that I’m doing what I’m doing for survivors. And I love survivors. I love you guys, and I consider myself now after some of the stuff I’ve been through, one of them too; absolutely love you guys. Julie Roys 18:20 But this is what I told Scott, or at least what I was thinking at the time, I can’t remember if I told him. But I’m not doing this for survivors. Maybe as a secondary reason, yes. But I don’t think any of us can stay in the work that we’re doing long term if we’re primarily doing it for people. Because when you’re doing it for people, your eyes are always on the worthiness of a person. And we’re pretty darn fallible. In the long term, if that’s what we do, we’re gonna end up very bitter and angry and burned out. The primary reason I’m doing what I’m doing, and I would suggest that all of us should be doing whatever work it is, as an act of worship to God. We’re serving God. And you’ve probably heard the story of Mother Teresa, where she was with a journalist in Calcutta. And he saw her cleaning out this infected wound that was this maggot infested. And he said, “I wouldn't do what you’re doing for a million dollars. And she shot right back, I wouldn’t either. She got that when she served the person on the street, she was serving Jesus. And so, whenever we’re serving whatever capacity it is, we are serving Jesus. I would also say that I do believe God called me to this work. Julie Roys 19:45 I never would have imagined five years ago that I would be doing what I’m doing today. It was the furthest thing from my imagination. And I bet for some of you in this room 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you never would have imagined you would be here either, or you never would have imagined the set of circumstances that put you in this room right now. And I’m guessing that if you look back over the ,5, 10, 15, however many years it’s been, if you look carefully, you can see the hand of God in your life, putting you where you are right now. It is not the road you would have chosen, but it’s the road that God worked redemptively in. Julie Roys 20:31 Five years ago, I was a radio host on the Moody Bible Institute, Moody Radio Network. I’d just written a book, I was getting booked at these women’s conferences, ironically, one at Harvest Bible Chapel. I was getting booked on all these radio programs, I was on my way to becoming, God forbid, a Christian celebrity. But then I learned about corruption and abuse at the Moody Bible Institute. And I was the one person who not only had the inside information, but I also had the training and the skills to know what to do with that to expose it. And so, it didn’t take too long before it became a matter of conscience where I felt like if I didn’t say something, that I would be disobeying God. And some of you know exactly what I’m talking about, because you’ve sat in that situation before, where you’ve known that to stay quiet is to disobey God. But you have absolutely no guarantee that if you speak out, that it’s going to go well for you. In fact, you’re pretty darn sure that if you do speak out, it’s gonna go a lot worse. And that’s what happened for me. I got fired from Moody Bible Institute. Ironically, they also pressured the top three executives to resign that I had reported on. But I had broken the silent rule, which is, you never speak about these things publicly. I was actually told by a board member on the phone, that the reason they fired me is because the interim president told them that I had signed an NDA. And I will never forget the shock in his voice when I told him that several years before when they had moved me from full time to part time that they had given me an NDA, and I fought it with everything I was worth. There was absolutely no way that as a journalist, I would sign something that resigned me to silence, absolutely no way. And he immediately said, Oh, I gotta go and hung up. And despite the fact that they had absolutely no grounds for firing me, I was completely blacklisted in the evangelical industrial complex. And many of you know what that is like too. I knew it would happen, just wasn’t, I had been in it for about 10 years. So, I knew how the game worked. Julie Roys 23:02 And I thought when I got fired, this would be a great thing. I’ll have more time with my kids, and now my grandkids. But then survivors from Harvest Bible Chapel came to me begging me to hear their stories and do what I had done at Moody for Harvest. And then survivors from Mark Driscoll’s church came and said, “Would you please listen to us and report on what’s happening here? And then Steve Baughman gave me a copy of his book, Cover Up in the Kingdom. And he said, Julie, I’ve been reporting for years about how Ravi Zacharias is a fraud, but nobody will listen to me because I’m an atheist, but they’ll listen to you because you’re one of them. And God brought me story after story after story. And every single time I didn’t hear like the audible voice of God, but I felt very much that he was saying, keep reporting. And so that’s what I’ve tried to do. And ironically, God took the one thing that I thought would end my career, blowing the whistle on the Moody Bible Institute, and he used it to launch The Roys Report. And he used hurting people that I got to know in my reporting on Harvest and Willow Creek to start this conference. And I just see his hand working redemptively in all things. And I bet some of you like I said, if you look back over your life, and even this chapter, you might be able to see God’s hand working redemptively. Maybe not yet. Some of you I know, because I’ve talked to you and it’s like, you’re hanging by a thread right now. And you can’t even believe that the things that have happened to you at the hands of people you loved, and you trusted, and you thought were members of the kingdom and you were all working on the same team, did you what they did. And I would just encourage you for whatever mustard seed of faith that you have, hang on to Jesus. Just hang on. Because I also know that there’s others of you today that you never would have believed, you never would have believed 10 years ago that you would be where you are today. You never would have believed you’d be able to heal. You never would have believed with what you went through, that you would have the confidence and the courage that you have today that you will be as healed as you are. And I just want to remind you, that’s not just because you’re amazing. A lot of you are amazing. And you’re an incredible inspiration to me, and you have been through far more than I ever will go through and ever dream of going through, I would just encourage you to see the way that God has been working in your life doing what he said he would do, that he began a good work in you will carry it on to completion to the day of Christ Jesus. Julie Roys 25:57 I don’t think it’s trite, that what God did in the Old Testament with Joseph that he still does today. That he takes the evil that was done against us, and he works it for good. And if he’s calling you to a certain work, I would just encourage you to do it with all your might, as unto the Lord. And I’m not going to quit because of the pushback. I think it comes with the territory. In fact, I had an editor once who said Julia, if you’re not getting any hate mail, then you’re probably just not saying anything. Julie Roys 26:38 But what about the second reason that Scott mentioned? The seeming futility of fighting this evil that seems to have worked itself through the entire dough of evangelicalism and within the church, and you seem to be fighting this giant that is so incredibly massive, and all the people with power are propping it up. And quite frankly, we don’t have very much. In fact, in comparison, we’re just gnats; we’re like so small. You know, last night we heard from Jason and Lorie Adams Brown. And if you know their story, you know that they blew the whistle on Andy Wood, who had been at Echo church because of the spiritual abuse that they received at his hands. Despite the fact that they blew the whistle on him, and I had the privilege of reporting their story, Saddleback Church went ahead and hired him, and he is now the successor for Rick Warren at Saddleback Church. Julie Roys 27:42 But it was so encouraging to hear from them how their courage and their speaking out, cause other people who had been similarly abused by some of the same people to come to them, and talk to them about the abuse. And for them to say how they got their voice back because that’s what abusers do. They take away your voice. And to reclaim your voice is a very important thing. It is empowering. And then they talked about how another story that came to me because I published that first story was stories about how Andy Wood and Echo Church had stolen these vulnerable congregations that own these multimillion-dollar buildings and had tried to steal those buildings. And a major Baptist leader went on the record with me talking about his experience of Andy Wood trying to steal numerous churches. And that never would have come out had they not spoken. Julie Roys 28:42 I also recently produced a podcast with Emily Hyland, who’s at this conference. And Emily was a victim of abuse by Dane Ortlund, who’s a pastor in this area. And Emily told me that after we published the podcast, now she’s beginning to hear from other people who have similarly been abused by Dane Ortlund, and now they’re beginning to get their voice and they’re thinking of going on the record. And just a little bit ago, I published the story about Churchome. This is this West Coast church pastored by celebrity pastor Judah Smith, and the first piece that I did on Churchome was about this woman who had been raped by one of their pastors. And they even did an independent investigation and found out that there’s credible evidence, in fact beyond a reasonable doubt that her allegation was true. So, they pressured him, and he resigned from the church and three years later, they hired him back over her objections. And literally the same day, I started getting emails and texts and different things from women who had similarly been abused at that church and wanted to go forward with their story and I was able to do a three-part series on what Churchome had done. And right now, I can’t tell you what the story is because I haven’t published it yet. But I have a big one. And it’s due to another person at Churchome, seeing what we just reported. And now that person came forward and gave me a bunch of information. And that’s how it happens. Every single time with story after story after story. It’s like this little fire starts here, and then it spreads here, and then here, here, and soon the whole hillside is ablaze. And friends, that’s how movements happen. That’s how they grow. But it takes time, and it takes perseverance. Julie Roys 30:34 At the first RESTORE, I said that this unmistakable move of God that it was not a sprint, it’s a marathon. Now, at that point, I thought we were in like mile 9 or 10. The more I’ve done this now I’m thinking we’re on four or five, we may be on two or three. And I hate to break that news to you. But I really do. People have compared this current state of the church to the Catholic church before the Reformation. I actually think that’s a fair comparison. It is that corrupt. It is that widespread. Do you know how long the Reformation took? Historians date it from 1517 to 1648. Friends that is 131 years. How about slavery? Let’s just look at England. It took William Wilberforce fighting passionately, so much so that his own health suffered greatly for two decades to abolish slavery in England, because friends, that’s how institutionalized evil and that is what we are dealing with institutionalized evil. That’s how it’s dismantled. So, do I get discouraged? 100%. I’m human. Are there days when it’s hard to persevere? But I believe the corruption in the church is the most serious threat to this country. And most Christians don’t even know it. That’s the shocking thing. Most Christians aren’t even aware of it. And you say, Well, how can I say that? How many times have we heard the hope of the world is Jesus and his means of rescuing the world is thank you, the church. And we’re supposed to be the salt of the earth. We’re supposed to be a light on the hill, and we are Sodom and Gomorrah. And yet, what are most all the Christian leaders doing right now? What are they talking about? They’re talking about all the sin out there. Right? They’re talking about everything that’s bad out there in the world. Like they have a moral platform to stand on. And they’re not talking about the sin in their own house, none of them. And unless we deal with the sin in our own house, there’s no way, there’s no way that we’re going to reform this country. And it certainly isn’t by electing some politician. Julie Roys 33:21 But I would encourage you, and this is what I see happen a lot, is that people get really excited about a story that touches them personally. And thank God because every time I report a new story, there are people who are totally unaware that this is going on, and they become aware. But then what happens is they move on with their life. And I’m not saying that you shouldn’t move on with your life. Dear Lord, if all of us lived in, I’ve got a weird call. I get that. I got a weird personality too. I make mugs. Actually. I have people make them for me, but the biggest insults I get I actually enjoy that at times. I’m just kind of weird that way. But I’m just there is an element to which we can’t all live in that intensity, and I get that. But what I’m saying is, don’t just move on and forget there’s other people stuck. Don’t just move on. Keep your love for the church and for the mission and for the restoration of this thing that Jesus died for and that he loves. And don’t forget that if not you, who? So, am I going to quit because the progress is slow and hard? No. I’m going to keep in mind one of my favorite verses First Corinthians 15:58. Therefore my dear brothers and sisters, do not lose heart. Stand firm. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. Julie Roys 35:07 And now I’m going to address the most concerning issue that Scott raised. And that is what if in the process of fighting the monster, you become the monster? Last year Christian therapist and trauma expert Dr. Diane Langberg, said from the stage that the way that you recognize a wolf is you don’t become one. Some people took offense at that, because they said, listen, we’re not all going to become pedophiles. We’re not all rapists, we’re not like on that level. And they’re right. It takes a certain level of pathology to do something like that. And most people, quite frankly, aren’t there, thank God. That said, that’s not what Diane was saying. What Diane was saying is that every single one of us, every single one of us has a sin nature. And if we don’t keep that in check, we can succumb to a lot of the same things as the people I report on. I would be lying if I said that I didn’t have some of the vices of the people I report on because I do. I struggle with anger, bitterness, contempt, self-pity, that’s a big one, pride. And the more I uncover and the more that I see innocent people abused by these people, the more difficult it becomes to deal with some of those vices. It can become a death spiral. And the spiritual death that we see in other people can become our spiritual death. Dr. Lambert writes about this in her devotional book called In Our Lives First. And this is a book that I’ve read twice, devotionally over the past 18 months. I’ll probably read it again over the next year because this is something that I constantly need to be reminded of. And she writes, those of us who work with such deaths must be extremely careful not to catch the diseases that surround us. We must be careful not to assume that catching such diseases is hard to do. Working with sin, suffering and evil can easily numb the heart. Numbness leads to death, if left alone. She also writes, counselors, though this is true of investigative reporters, it’s true of pastors, it’s true of Survivor advocates, many others. We are handling toxic things, and we have toxins in our own hearts, and it is not hard to either be destroyed by the work or to destroy those who come to us for help. So, what do we do? Do we quit working in the trenches? Lori Anne suggested that some people should quit. I’m not going to argue with Lori Anne. Maybe I tweak it a little bit. Let me just speak to those of you who like me grew up in a home where personal responsibility and duty was a big thing. Any of you? okay. And so sometimes those of us who grew up in these homes tend to do things because we feel like we have to, and we have a sense of responsibility and duty. And we can be destroying ourselves and destroying the relationships with those we love the most. Yet we keep doing it because we think we have to. Am I right? Can I get an Amen? Now, right? I don’t think God is honored when we destroy ourselves. And I tell you what, he’s certainly not honored, when eventually that turns into harm for others, because eventually that’s what happens. So, if that’s you, and that’s happening, you know, maybe you don’t need to have a frontline role. Maybe you can just step back for a season. Maybe you can support some people that are out there. You know, maybe you can adjust your role or maybe you do take a little bit of a break. Or maybe you do go to Colorado for three weeks and hike mountains. But is there a way? Is there a way to remain in work that exposes us to the vilest, the vilest things that happen in this world, yet instead of destroying us, it actually aids in our own sanctification? Sanctification, just a theological word for the process of becoming like Jesus. Julie Roys 39:53 I grew up in the holiness movement. You may not know what that means. That’s okay. But in the holiness movement, we talked a lot about sanctification. And we talked a lot about a second work of the Holy Spirit, kind of like charismatics talk about a baptism of the Holy Spirit, except the manifestation within the holiness movement isn’t tongues, the manifestation is power over sin in your life. And we weren’t against tongues. Speak in tongues? Absolutely. Just like Paul said, I wish you all were like me. Just if it doesn’t lead to your sanctification, what good is it? That’s the point is that we become like Jesus, right? Diane Langberg writes a lot about sanctification. She doesn’t urge counselors to quit their work. Instead, she implores them to pursue Jesus. She writes, we have not heard God clearly if we fail to understand that one of the requirements for our work is that God’s sanctifying work must go on continually in us as well. If it does not, while we may appear for a time to be doing his work, eventually what is true will be made manifest. That we have not for the sake of others, meant to the sanctification process ourselves, we will damage his world, His people and His name, may it never be so. Julie Roys 41:17 One of the great tragedies of the epidemic of abuse and corruption in the evangelic church is that it is pushing people away from Jesus. And many because of the hurt that they’ve experienced are beginning to deconstruct their faith. And I’m not dissing deconstruction. Many of us need to go back and reevaluate a lot of the beliefs that we took in and begin to think about those and we need a safe place to do that in. We need people who are safe people to do that with, we need safe people. We need to be safe people. And I’d be lying if I didn’t say that what I have been exposed to hasn’t caused me to doubt my faith. In fact, the hardest question for me has been does Christianity, does it make people worse? Or does it make people better? Because I’ve seen some really devout Christians who have incredible grip of Scripture, incredible grip of theology much better than I do. And yet they are some of the most wicked people I have ever known in my life. And I tell you what I’ve become convinced of, I’ve concluded that Christianity, divorce from a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ and reduced to a theological system, a moralistic system, or God forbid, a political one is absolutely heinous. And it does make people into monsters. Julie Roys 43:06 But I believe a vibrant relationship with Jesus Christ is not only helpful in helping us deal with the vilest thing of this world, it is 100% essential. I know my relationship with Jesus has sustained me over the past 18 months. I remember several weeks before last year’s RESTORE conference, and I was a mess, and Dr. Diane Langberg got on a zoom call with me for about 90 minutes. And she was so loving, and so gracious, which I’m sure is not hard for you to imagine. And she was Jesus to me. And I remember saying to her, Diane, the hardest part about this whole thing to me is that I’ve been accused of these awful things, and I can’t say anything. I remember having a very close friend who said, Julie, if you step down from that conference, everybody’s going to assume that everything that was said about you is true. And Diane said to me, she said, Julie, this is an opportunity for you to enter into Christ’s sufferings. And initially, I thought about that very much in a martyr sort of way. Because if you’ve been wronged in some way, it’s really really easy to get a martyr complex. Super easy. But it hasn’t been like that. Julie Roys 44:43 So, I had a very profound experience with a spiritual coach mentor about, I don’t know, seven or eight months ago where we were just doing some breathing exercises because I was kind of worked up. It’s hard to imagine I know. And while we’re in the process of this, she said, just experience the Lord’s compassion. And that morning, I had read about Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. And I began imagining being in the garden of Gethsemane with Jesus. I have a pretty vivid imagination. So, I’m there and I’m looking at his face and I see just incredible pain on his face. And it strikes me he’s just been betrayed by one of his 12 closest companions. And one of his three closest friends is going to deny him three times. And I felt betrayed by people who are frankly kind to strangers. I don’t really even know any more. And then Jesus is literally sweating, beads of blood. I had gone through some emotional trauma; I’ve never done that. And then Jesus is thinking about this in the night before he’s going on the cross. I began thinking of this, he’s going to be tortured to death the next day. I have never in my life been tortured for my faith. I read Miriam’s book, and I was devastated. What that woman has gone through, and she has overcome. I am in awe of her. Jesus suffered. The immensity of His suffering began to hit me. And I in that moment, finally didn’t feel sorry for myself. And somehow, in that whole process, I felt more unified with Jesus than I’d ever felt before. And there was this oneness, and somehow now what I had gone through had meaning and that made all the difference in the world. I’ve also been thinking about the fact that Jesus died for his enemies. I have enemies now. I don’t think I had enemies before I started reporting. Like I people didn’t like me. But enemies. I mean, somebody really bent on your destruction like that, actually schemes about it. I have those now. Some of you have those now. I’m having a tough enough time forgiving them. Dying for them? Man. And here’s where it gets tough because Jesus says we’re supposed to have the same attitude that he had. Julie Roys 47:29 I was challenged by a friend several years ago, to just read through the Old Testament, and read about every single time that a prophet brings a word of judgment to people. It took me several months, but I went ahead and did it. And something dawned on me. Every time that God gave a prophet a harsh word to say to his people, it was never because he wanted to destroy them. We see this in the story of Jonah, right? You all know the story. Jonah is told to go to the Ninevites. Nineveh is the capital of the Assyrian bloodthirsty, hostile people, the enemies of the Israelites. And what does he do? He goes to Tarsus gets on a ship and they go out to the Mediterranean. The big storm comes they throw him overboard, fish swallow them, he’s in the fish three days, vomited up on dry land, and he says, Okay, fine, I’ll go to Nineveh, goes to Nineveh for three days. He tells the Ninevites that in 40 days, God’s going to destroy you. And then the Ninevites do a most remarkable thing. They actually repent and God has mercy on them. But Jonah, what does he do? He becomes despondent. He says to the Lord, oh, Lord, is this not what I said when I was in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarsus, for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love unrelenting from disaster. Therefore, oh Lord, please take my life for me. For it is better for me to die than to live. Jonah had become every bit as hard-hearted as the people that he hated. And if that can happen to a prophet of God, it can happen to me, can happen to any one of us. Julie Roys 49:29 So, this is kind of a heart check for us. This heart check for me, I began to think about this. Like what if John MacArthur repented? It’s hard to imagine. The man’s never apologized that I know of. That’s what I’m told from everybody near him. But let’s imagine he did. What if John MacArthur went to Eileen Gray, and he said, Eileen, I’m so sorry. When your husband tried to suffocate your daughter and the abuse was so brutal in your home that you came to the church, you came to us for help. And instead of helping you, we told you to drop that protective order that you would have gotten against him to protect, not you, but your children. And in front of the entire church, I, the shepherd shamed and excommunicated you simply for trying to protect your children. And years later, years later when it came out that he had sexually abused your children and was convicted by court, and you know how hard it is to be convicted in California of child abuse? And they sent him to prison? I still maligned you, and I protected your abuser. Oh, Eileen, I am so sorry. I have sinned against you. I’ve sinned against my church; will you forgive me? Or what if he went to Wendy Gray and, Wendy, when you came to me, or when your father came to me when you were just a teenager, and he confessed to my face, that he had sexually molested you, and I kept him on staff another three years and I wrote you that handwritten note telling you to forgive your father? That was wrong, that was a sin against you. And years later, decades later, when that action of mine had devastated your life, and you simply came to me because you wanted support going to the elders of the church, where your father was still pastoring. And at this point, you knew that he was a serial abuser, he was abusing many people because that’s what pedophiles do. Instead of coming with you instead of supporting you, instead of repenting for what I did, I said in an email to you, why has this become such an obsession for you? That devastated you. That was my fault. I am so sorry. Will you forgive me for that? Do I want John MacArthur to receive grace? Do I want him to repent? or would I rather him see his maker and try and make that excuse to him? Honestly? It’s a little bit of a struggle. But I thought about that. Imagine if John MacArthur repented? I mean, really repented? Can you imagine the ripple effect that would have? How many pastors that would affect in this church? Can you imagine what that would do? Unbelievable what would happen if John MacArthur repented. Would I rejoice at that? You bet I’d rejoice at that. That could be the start of revival in this church. That’s what we need to see – is pastors repenting. Julie Roys 53:09 But I tell you what, that is not natural for me. I tell you what’s natural for me. When somebody hurts me, I want them to hurt in the same way that they hurt me. Can I get an amen? That’s human nature, isn’t it? The only reason that I have any grace in my heart is because of Jesus Christ. Because I wouldn’t have it without him. And without him, I would become a monster, I am convinced of it. And that’s why one of many reasons why I need Jesus. But now I’m going to say something a little bit controversial. I’ve also found that I need Christian community. And I know some of you have been so burned by your Christian community, and I don’t blame you for not wanting to darken the doors of the church. Three and a half years ago, we lost a church, or we left the church that I thought we would be in the rest of our lives. I thought it was different. I loved that church dearly. I loved the people in it. But the last straw for us was when they covered up sex abuse. And at that point, we just couldn’t trust the leadership anymore. And for two years, we went from church to church to church to church, and it was unbelievably depressing. And I won’t go into all the reasons it was depressing. I think you all know. But two weeks before everything blew up in my life when this whole controversy hit last year. Two weeks before that a professional colleague invited me to his house church. And here’s what’s kind of ironic, that professional call I happen to be the CEO of Christianity Today. Now, if you know anything about my past, which you may not, I have not had a great relationship with Christianity Today. That CEO, though, has since publicly apologized for some of the stuff that CT did to me under his predecessor. But two weeks before this happened, I was like, Great, yeah, I’ll try anything at this point. So, my husband and I went to the church, the house church. And it was great, we loved it. I was like, this is really super. Between week one and week two, everything in my world blew up, and I had to resign from the conference. And I remember walking into that house church with people I knew two weeks. And I wasn’t really planning on sharing this. But somebody noticed something I had said, and then when we were in small groups, they said something, and I just, and I’m bawling in front of people I don’t even know, hardly. But over the past 18 months, that’s become my Christian community. And I was invited into a women’s cohort. And that became a support for me. And the leader of the women’s cohort said, “Julie, do you have a prayer team? And I said, Well, I used to have a prayer team, but it’s kind of fizzled. And I don’t honestly even have the strength to put one together. And she says, I’ll do it for you. And so, once a month, we have this really sweet prayer time with a small group of people. And they’ve been some of the best times for me, and I honestly shudder to think of where I would be right now, if for the past 18 months, I had done that in isolation. And so, I’m so grateful for Christians in my life, who have been the hands and the feet of Jesus to me and who have loved me. And I don’t know. I can’t speak to your situation. I know some of you feel like you’re in a wasteland. And I know you feel like all the churches in your area are bad. And I don’t, I’m not even going to argue with you. I would just encourage you to not give up, to not give up. And to keep hoping, keep pressing into Jesus keep looking for Christian community. And I don’t know how God will meet that in your life. But I just trust he will because that’s just God’s nature. And I don’t know how long the wasteland will be, but it won’t last forever. Julie Roys 57:40 So, we’re going to close this conference the way we close every single RESTORE conference, and that’s with communion. And Paul Lundquist, who is a local pastor who has been a dear friend of this ministry, and so supportive of what we’re doing is going to come and lead us in communion where we celebrate not just our oneness with Christ, but our oneness together as his body. So, Paul, would you come? Julie Roys 58:05 Well, I hope you’ve been encouraged by what you just heard. And I wish you could have been there to experience communion together with those dear and beautiful souls at the RESTORE conference. That is a memory I will not soon forget. And I hope you’ll make it a point to join us at the next RESTORE conference, which we’ll be announcing soon. Also, I want to mention that the videos of these talks are all available at my YouTube channel. And we’re not charging anything for those. We just really want as many people as possible to benefit from these RESTORE conference talks. But friends, I’m sure you’re aware that producing these podcasts and videos is not cheap. So, if you appreciate this content and you’re able to help, would you please consider donating to The Roys Report, especially as you’re considering your end of the year donations, please remember us and the work that we do. We’re running a bit in the red this year so your gifts are especially critical, so we can continue podcasting and reporting at the same level. To donate just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

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Recovery & Empowerment: A Path Forward

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 16, 2023 57:08

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNHswz5yZ-M Clergy sexual abuse is one of the most devastating forms of abuse, impacting almost every area of life. After surviving abuse like that, how do you recover? And after being preyed upon by a powerful church figure, how do you recover your agency, your voice, your life? This edition of The Roys Report features an unforgettable session from the recent Restore Conference, and one of the most raw and vulnerable talks you'll ever hear. It comes from Lori Anne Thompson, a victim of clergy sexual abuse by one of the most powerful men in evangelicalism for nearly 40 years—Ravi Zacharias. But even before Ravi, she experienced the pain of abuse by her father. And then, after becoming a believer, the pastor who had become a father figure to her used his position to extort money from Lori Anne and her husband. Statistically, Lori Anne should be a shell of herself. But anyone who knows Lori Anne knows her as uncommonly kind, extraordinarily bright, perceptive, healthy—and truly, one of those people whose presence in your life just makes your life better. She has walked a road no one should ever have to walk. And yet, through that process, she's learned the keys to not just surviving abuse and trauma, but how to thrive after abuse and trauma. The voice of abuse survivors is too often missing—and silenced—in American evangelical churches and ministries. Lori Anne has a vital perspective as a survivor and healer, and she's distilled decades of experiences and wisdom into this riveting 52-minute talk. Guests Lori Anne Thompson Lori Anne Thompson. RKin, MA, is a survivor of clergy sexual abuse who now seeks to serve the survivor community through selective speaking, extensive writing, and in her role as an intake specialist at a survivor-centric law firm. She graduated from Queens University, Canada, earning a Bachelor of Science Kinesiology and a Master of Child Advocacy & Policy from Montclair State University. Learn more at loriannethompson.com Show Transcript SPEAKERS Julie Roys, LORI ANNE THOMPSON JULIE ROYS 00:02 Hi, I'm Julie Roys, founder of The Roys Report and the RESTORE conference, and you're about to see a video from Restore 2023. Alot of conferences charge for videos like these, we've decided to make them available for free. We've done that because we don't want anybody to miss out on this valuable content for lack of finances. But of course these do cost us money to shoot and to edit. So if you're able we'd really appreciate it if you consider donating to The Roys Report so we can continue this important service. To do so just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, I hope you'll make plans to join us at the next RESTORE conference, which we'll be announcing soon. As great as these videos are they pale in comparison to being there in person. As one speaker commented this year, RESTORE is more of a restorative community than it is a conference. And every year that community just grows deeper and richer. And so I hope you'll be able to join us at the next RESTORE. Be watching for that. And in the meantime, I hope you're blessed and encouraged by this video. LORI ANNE THOMPSON 01:11 The survivor community is a community that I was born into. It's also a community I never ever wanted to be part of. 100% of those of us who have survived any kind of abuse did so in a social structure, where the despot has ruled the day. Where the power dynamic was as tangible as what it was invisible. Where dominance and subordination or submission have been the typography of our tyranny. The Oxford Dictionary in the Oxford Dictionary, tyranny is defined as cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control. The work of Dr. Judith Herman has informed so much of my understanding. and she writes this, and I quote, “The rules of tyranny are simple. The strong do what they will simply because they can. The weak and vulnerable submit, the rule of the strong is enforced by violence or the threat of violence. Violence does not have to be used very often; it merely needs to be effective when it is used.” 02:22 In faith communities, we not only have the threat of violence by our earthly offenders, who seem all powerful and deeply omnipotent, but we also have the ever-present threat of the Almighty himself. The rules of tyranny are as systemic as what they are systematic. They are as pervasive as what they are predictable. In contrast, the survivor community is meant to be based upon principles of mutuality and reciprocity, a safe shelter for people who have been pillaged, where they should have been protected. And a place where people should be fed when they have been eaten. Juxtaposed to those who offended against us, overwhelmingly, we are a group of courageous overcomers. We are not a group of losers. But we are a group who have suffered catastrophic losses. I regularly have the privilege of interviewing survivors who are seeking civil justice. And the single hardest question that these people have to answer in that interview is this: what, what are the damages to your financial, personal, physical, psychological, professional, sexual and spiritual life? It is easier to make a list of what's not been damaged, about what remains, because across domains, life is radically altered when you've been touched in any way by abuse. 04:09 Some of us may have encountered abuse for the first time as adults, but a much higher percentage of us have encountered abuse as children. Those are called Adverse Childhood Experiences, and they result in a sequela a staggering sequela of negative outcomes that compound and complicate life in adolescence and adulthood. In the 1990's, Dr. Vincent Felitti, and his team at Kaiser Permanente did the original or foundational a study, and they elucidated–they surveyed I think it was 17,000 people–and they elucidated 10 factors that if any one of them happen in childhood, that can cause a deformation of the person and personhood and personality of individuals. And they include sexual, physical and emotional abuse, physical and emotional neglect, parental separation, parental incarceration, parental substance abuse, domestic violence and/or mental illness. Later on in the Philadelphia study, not surprisingly, the concept of childhood adversity was expanded to include community violence, racism, foster care and bullying. The earlier and more protracted all this, (I'm gonna bleep myself) happens, these adverse experiences happen, the longer and later the outcome, the adverse outcome stay. And a score of four or more puts survivors at risk of a 12-fold risk of suicide. So, check, check, check, check, check, depression, substance abuse and a laundry list of extensive poor health outcomes that last well into adulthood and often lead to early death. It's an abysmal picture. For those of us who have encountered abuse across a lifespan, a significant percentage of us have never told a soul. Rather, we have suffered and suffocated in silence. Sometimes, sometimes people don't even tell themselves. 06:26 This is a very leaky business. Research done by Baylor University, I met Dr. Pooler yesterday, it was a privilege, informs us that those of us who have survived clergy perpetrated sexual abuse as adults, they know some facts about folks like us. The average age of onset is 30. So much for being vulnerable, not being vulnerable past the age of 18. With an average duration, and this is staggering to me, of four years of abuse. Like that's staggering. A whopping 65% of us had unprocessed trauma, and a further 62% of us, were being counseled by the very person, the clergy member who abused us. Only 9% of us report that the church supported us after we disclosed. And 80% of us report that abuse negatively impacted our relationship with God. More recent research that's not been published yet reports that 40% of clergy adult sexual abuse survivors have post-traumatic stress disorder. Man, I tell you, I wonder why, wonder why we have PTSD? Anybody? It might just be that those of us who have decided to disclose and sought any form of public justice have each had our own public crucifixion. Silence looks like a very attractive alternative in the face of that. We have watched strangers and friends alike gamble in person or online, as our private hell is hung in public humiliation, as we are mocked, and lied about when we were the ones who were lied to. Most of us can recall the hollow thud of our frames when our limp bodies collapse in exhaustion and when we dragged ourselves away from the side of the evangelical religious road and waited to die. We can taste the trauma, the disorientation and the bewilderment of telling the truth only to labelled a liar. The cruelty of incomprehension as we asked for bread not only to be given a stone, but to have stones thrown at us, to be told to sit down in silence while our offenders rise to speak for standing ovations. 09:21 It is grievous. It is right to grieve, it is also right in this moment to breathe. Can you join me? Can we do it again? One more. 09:46 That was then, and this is now. And I'm about to enter into what is the beginning of my end and so if that hurt, I would ask you to find a space to ground yourself because this may hurt more. It hurt for me to write it may hurt for you to read. I have written a brief narrative, one that is as gentle as I could make it. One that leaves out as many details as possible, yet still provides a cogent narrative for you to understand that when I met Ravi Zacharias I was already destroyed. 10:38 I was sired by a sexual predator. I am the child of a child molester. I was my mother's last child and I thought I was my father's last child too until several years ago, I found out that he sired his last child just before he died. That child was born to a child. She took her first breath five months after his last. I was two when my mother and my oldest sister fled the home. Myself and my two remaining siblings were left behind with him. Consequently, my home life was transient and tumultuous. Poverty pervaded my life across domains. My siblings and I regularly endured rage fueled physical assaults by my father, on more than one occasion, that led to unconsciousness. My father had a partner in his crimes, my stepmother, who also perpetrated verbal, emotional, physical, sexual abuse, at times that came close to torture. Polyvictimization in my home hung as heavy as the daily dose of secondhand smoke. Shame, spurning, starvation, medical and physical neglect were commonplace. These abuses are too overwhelming to number or even to name, but they included control of consumption of food and drink, control of urination and defecation, a regimen that did not resemble human hygiene, sexually abusive bathing practices, denuding and dehumanizing and defeminizing that include mandatory dressing in full coverage masculine clothes, which was always excessively hot in summer and wholly inadequate in winter. It seems to me that all oppressive regimes seem to engage in the practice of the shearing off of hair of their victims. Month after merciless month I sat in the kitchen where she and I silently sobbed where my any traces of tresses would fall to the floor. I was formed and fashioned entirely by the will of others, and I rarely, if ever expressed a will of my own. My older remaining sister disclosed my father's savage sexual abuse of her and fled the home when I was 10 years old. She was 13. Once again, I and my remaining sibling were left behind. My father confessed to his crimes, attempted suicide twice, went to jail for nine months and returned home rehabilitated. It is difficult to breathe when your father's shame hangs around you like secondhand smoke. I was in a toxic family and with no choice but to inhale or die. I did both with each breath. 13:47 Upon his release from incarceration, he turned his abusive intentions towards me — sexually abusive intentions. I could not fathom how an adult would want to have sex acts with a child. I still cannot. After a particularly salient incident, I asked him why he had sex with children. I like many others thought that if a man had a wife, he would not sexually offend. I can still see this moment, the traumatic tableaux as he leaned against the table, the kitchen table. He was a massive, he was an immense man, and I can feel what I felt as I stood by the door ready to run to literally nowhere and no one, knowing full well, the futility of fleeing, but ready to flee anyway. And in a rare moment of clarity, and maybe the only honest thing he ever said, he told me that his predation was not about sex, it was about power. I was twelve. 15:06 Judith Herman says, “Repeated trauma in childhood forms and deforms the personality which how trapped in an abusive environment is faced with the formidable task of adaptation. She must find a way to preserve a sense of trust in people who are untrustworthy, safety in a situation that is unsafe, control in a situation that is terrifyingly unpredictable, and power in a situation of helplessness. Unable to care for or protect herself, she must compensate for the failures of adult care and protection with the only means at her disposal – an immature system of psychological defenses.” 15:48 More Kleenex. Thank you for being patient with me. It would be harder if I didn't feel this, or easier, sorry, if I didn't feel it so much. I understood that if I were to survive, I would have to protect myself from the one man who was supposed to protect me. I tried really hard for three more years and he tried harder. But the time I left home at 15, I had a perfect ACE score of 10. It was a perfect score. And my perfectionism began early. I left with life in a cardboard box. And I never looked back. 16:28 He was arrested for child molestation for the second time, and he learned from his first go round that the nearly universal act of predatory denial. This time he was acquitted because it was my word against his. And there were no traces of his trauma on my person. Many children many abuse children, says Judith Herman cling to the hope that growing up will bring escape and freedom without question, but that they will grow up with major impairments in cognition, self-care, in a memory, and identity and the capacity to form stable relationships. I had them all. My father was released from prison, but I was not. As an adult, I was repeatedly revictimized by men in places of power and fiduciary duty, men that I both dearly loved, and deeply trusted. I married when I was 18. Because he asked and I couldn't say no. And I had my first child at 21. Her very existence some of you may relate to this, awakened in me an anguish about my own childhood that can only be described as infinite and touching absolutely every area of my life. It was an earthquake, the birth of something beautiful, someone beautiful showed me that I was vulnerable too. The desire to protect her, nurture her, care for her and rip limb to limb anybody who would bring her harm, evoked rage for my own inner person. I was entirely unequipped to handle that the doors to the past that the present had opened. I knew I needed help. But I had very little in the way of resources. 18:34 That's when I turned to the evangelical church, who offered me cost free help. I had no idea how costly that help would be. Rightly, they proclaim good news to the poor, comfort to the brokenhearted, release for the captives, and liberty for those who had been imprisoned. I was poor, and I sure was brokenhearted, I knew everything there was to know about captivity. And they said that all who hunger and thirst for righteousness would be filled. And I was starving. 19:24 In the early days of belonging to the so-called Christian community, my own father died and it's that time that a door to a deeper darker world was open to me and I was adopted as a spiritual daughter of the lead pastor, who, and I had regular therapy sessions with him, I was diagnosed by him, and he was the treatment. I came to believe that the sum total of the Christian life in those early years was crying. I thought that, I was told and in some ways it's true, that tears will tarry, but joy would come in the morning, and it looked to me like night would never end. It was in the same community that I later met and married my current husband of 18 years. It was also there that the same pastor committed egregious spiritual abuse and financial malfeasance against us and other members of the congregation. And you know this but attempting to hold a much beloved, high powered pastor to account is an invite in catastrophic sequala of betrayal trauma as experienced by us, but as theorized by Dr. Jennifer Freyd, that includes a series of events that is defined by DARVO: denial that anything happened, attacking the victim in reversing the victim and offender dynamics such that the real victim is thought to be the offender agent of Satan, and the real offender is being victimized. Some of us have been DARVOed to death. 21:13 All of this happens, astonishingly, institutional cowardice is committed in the name of Christ. Perhaps truer words were never spoken by Dr. Judith Herman when she said, “In order to escape accountability for his crimes, the perpetrator does everything in his power to promote forgetting. If secrecy fails, the purpose or perpetrator attacks the credibility of his victim, and if he cannot silence her absolutely, he tries to make sure that no one listens.” No one listened. Very straightforward. Highly successful campaign. We were shunned and shut out of our Christian community. Before we had at least the hope in Christ. Now all we had was the harm of those who called upon his name, and not too much remained. It was in this context that I met Ravi Zacharias. 22:15 When I came forward when this story went public in 2016-2017, life as I knew it, anything that was beautiful, collapsed in what can only be described as a protracted private and public catastrophe. Virtually no one believed me. I could hardly believe myself. I was globally vilified. I lost my home, my occupation, and nearly my life itself. Years of days were filled with night. My only confidants were my therapist, and my lawyer, and in times of really intense moments, they still are. Justice was a joke, and so was hope. The steady drum of those two people's sanity helped me to save mine. I had no faith or hope left so I had to borrow theirs. In time, their belief and trust in me helped me to find a measure of belief and trust in myself. But there would be many years of nights before dawn would ever come. I and my husband took one step forward only to take at least 10 steps back. It took forever to not lose ground. It took even longer to gain any. C.S. Lewis said of wrong some can be made right, but only by going back till you find the error and working it afresh from that point never by simply going on. Evil can be undone, but it cannot develop into good. Time does not heal it the spell must be unwound bit by bit with backward mutters of dissevering power or else not. It's in recovery that we go back to the source of the error. And we work it a fresh from there. 24:18 Lainna said yesterday that we have to look back to move forward. Lena, I want a statue of that duck wherever you can find one of those. She was completely right. 24:34 For the time that we have remaining, I want to talk to you about the stages of recovery. The architecture of empowerment, and the route to resilience, even as each one of us has our own path and we'll take divergent paths forward. Are y'all ready for that? Okay. I want to say this as a caveat and no I didn't add this after I heard Lena speak. Although I was born into an abusive and nonnutritive environment. The simple fact that I'm a white, heterosexual female endowed with a backpack of privileges, that my fellow survivors who are part of marginalized groups, and races and cultures simply do not have. I was clever as a child compulsively compliant, and I had a quiet disposition. Some of those things have changed. 25:26 Even then, I had an interest in human wellbeing that was higher than my low estate. I had a lot of words, which I was not permitted to use, nor was I even permitted to think them. I was able to attend school, and eventually church. And those two things were a reprieve for me. I was watchful, which helped me anticipate some of the storms and take shelter, but whenever possible, these were compensatory mechanisms for me, you will have your own. 25:58 Another breath. On your mark, get set, here we go. 123, inhale, hold it there, exhale. Let's do it again, shall we? I need this as much as you do. On your mark, get set, go, inhale 123. And exhale. Feel your butt in your seat. Feel your feet on the floor, put your hands in your lap and your head on your shoulders. You have a body and it's good. 26:33 Okay, recovery is defined as the return to a normal state of health, or to regain the possession or control over something that was stolen or lost. That definition hits home. For many of you the road to recovery will be a pathway to recover what was. You remember a self before this, some of you. For me, recovery has been a pathway to collect what wasn't. I'm not saying it's better or worse. I'm just saying it's different. I have a big bee in my bonnet about empowerment. And this might sound ranty, so hold on. Dr. Judith Herman again says, “The first principle of recovery is empowerment of the survivor.” I'm going to say it again. The first principle of recovery is empowerment of the survivor. “She or he must be the author and arbiter of her own recovery. Others may offer advice, support, assistance, affection, and care, but not very, very importantly, not the cure.” Others are not the cure. “Many benevolent and well intentioned attempts to assist the survivor flounder because this basic principle of empowerment is not observed. No intervention, (I say it again), no intervention that takes power away from a survivor can possibly foster recovery, no matter how much it appears to be in his or her immediate best interest.” Empower, to be empowered is to have capacity and control. To have autonomy, which means I am me, I'm not you, and have agency which means that things I do matter in my life, I can affect change. It's not sufficient for you to do for me. It's wholly insufficient. We do for toddlers. Even in toddlerhood, that's how children learn. It also means to engage in critical thinking rather than being told what to think. That means we have to flex our thinking muscles. And I don't know your story, but I know mine. And I was not permitted to think, but I also didn't even know how to think. And so even when I became a Christian, I was really happy for other people to think for me because they must be right. That has to stop if we're going to be a people who are empowered. We need to seek information and not be given a steady stream of advice. When I'm in a hurry, I will drop a piece of advice. And when people are also in a hurry, I'll do that. But in general, I will only provide resources and information. We can't have other people chew the meat for us. We have to learn to chew ourselves. I'm deeply concerned and don't mind publicly saying it that I'm very concerned about the dynamic that I see developing in the survivor advocacy community. I fear that we are absolutely without question recreating the celebrity culture from whence we came. 30:03 People speak of their, this drives me crazy. Oh, you can tell I'm feeling empowered. People speak of their helpers as if their helper is responsible for their healing. That is bullshit. You are responsible for your healing. You are not responsible for your hurt, which also many people aren't going to tell you you're responsible for your hurt. You are not responsible for your hurt, but you are responsible for your healing. No one person is the cure. And anyone who says they are, big circle around that person, big circle. There is no question that we need advocates in public spaces. But critically, we need to learn to advocate for ourselves. We need wise helpers. I'm all for wise helpers. And they're essential to recovery. The wisest helpers are those who can and will do with you and me, but not for. Wise helpers should not give you the answers. They might ask you questions. They should help you find the answers for yourself. 31:33 Empowerment is so central to recovery, that if that fails, recovery will not ensue. Empowerment is not a one and done. It is a process. However, there are stages to recovery. Carson alluded to that. He didn't know how well he was cueing me up. He really demonstrated his recovery journey for you. Thank you, Carson for embodying that, for us. 32:06 The first stage of recovery is establishment of safety and stability in the present. And I really think that many people continue to flounder because they try to go into the next phases of recovery before they are safe and stable. So you consider trauma… think of it like a train wreck, you're in a train wreck, nobody's going to get you to get up and walk when you have an open wound. That makes sense, your guts will fall out. So, for many of us, we're trying to get up and walk, some of us are trying to get up and run with our entrails hanging behind us. And we wonder why we're not well. Like that has to stop. And it took me at least a year and a half to stop hemorrhaging. Like I mean hemorrhaging. It took another year and a half just to be safe and stable. That's a long time, three years, just to get safe and stable. 33:06 And grieving and remembering is the second stage of recovery. Before we go to the second stage of recovery, let's just talk a little bit more I've got some notes and I want to make sure we talk about them. Part of safety and stability is are you safe from harm from yourself? Fair, fair point? Are you safe from harm from others? Can it the restoration of biological functions is paramount. They are the litmus test of whether or not you are in a place, a safe and stable place. Can you eat enough but not too much? Can you sleep enough but not too much? Can you move? Can you work, pay your bills, all those things? Abuse annihilates our attachment systems. I didn't have working attachment systems, but any sort of abuse, whether it's attachment system to key relationships, like Carson was talking about or workplace or identity, it annihilates our basic trust in others and also ourselves. Right? It rips apart our identity it destroys our autonomy. It really obliterates intimacy, and then it crushes initiative. Just can't do anything, you can hardly function. Trauma shatters our sense of safety in the world, and in our very selves. These things are not only fracturing, they are also formative. It takes time to rebuild a secure base. Give yourself that time. 34:36 The good news is that this is all possible. The bad news is its gonna take a lot of work. But you are people who know work; your gritty, you know how to get things done. So, we might as well put in the work to become safe and stable. People who don't negotiate safety and stability well will repeatedly re stabilize, or destabilize. 35:06 I have two young kids who remain at home still we have four in total. I birthed three of those suckers and I got one for free. And they're great, they're amazing. My youngest daughter is 14. She's amazing. She just started high school in Canada. And that's a big deal, because you go from like grade school to high school and they're wearing school uniforms. And she made the high school basketball team. Yeah, proud mom. I can't hit the broadside of a barn. But you know, she's my kids are athletic, which I'm really grateful for. And so, my husband likes to coach from the bench. Nobody else has that problem, I'm sure. And I don't know anything about basketball. But I'm really excited that she's having a good time and making connections and it's part of her identity and growth and development. And so, I'm all for that. What I have learned and watched that when the girls are a new team and young, and when they get the ball, they're like panicked, like, oh my gosh, we got the ball! And then they they all run in a mad, like a mad way to get to the other end of the court and then they don't know what to do. And my coach husband beside me, I'm quiet and he is usually quiet, but something happens in athletics to men. Oh, it's crazy. And he's saying, slow down. Like, can you just slow it, slow it down! They can't hear him because he's not the coach. And then he's telling me, like I even care. He's telling me look at that kid, like there's this kid on the team and she she's dribbling, right. I can't even mimic it because I can't do it. She's dribbling, she's got her head up. And she's looking, right she's looking for what she's supposed to do with the ball. But every other girl's like they've got their head down, they've got the ball, and they're not looking up at all. But he's right. It's good advice. So, if when you're new at recovery, and you are welcomed into survivor community, but it is baptism by fire. And so when you are thrown the ball and thrown into a new team, where you have no experience, and everything's confusing, and you have this ball that you feel you need to hold the offender accountable, you need to tell the church, you need to, you know, Christine said contact a lawyer or the authorities if there's a legal or criminal thing, and that's correct. But everything else, slow down! Take the time to feel what safety looks like. Take the time to see what it tastes like. So that you can monitor and measure those metrics. So keep your head so you should be able to dribble the ball of recovery in such a fashion that you can still look around and see where things are at. 38:20 And part of dribbling the ball and playing the game of recovery, and it's not a game but it's a good analogy, is grieving and remembering. And it's really, it's making meaning out of processing metabolizing and making meaning out of trauma. None of us incurred abuse alone. And none of us will be able to heal alone. The importance of social support can't be overstated. Small, safe, homegrown support groups are really, really, important. Thankfully, there's a lot more survivor led grassroot organizations that have been cropping up now than what there were then when things happened with me. 39:02 The therapeutic alliance which I'm pretty sure we're going to hear about next is of the utmost importance. And when I say therapeutic alliance, this is what I mean. And I make no apologies for making this statement because you deserve the best, the best of care. You need a licensed, competent board-certified mental health professional. I know it costs a great deal to get good therapy. I am telling you I would not be here without it. It costs more not to. Low to no cost things are journaling, meditation, prayer, really vigorous exercise. I am in the wellness industry, I'm a health care provider. And when this all happened, I was curled into a ball for several years. I know what it feels like to feel paralyzed and not be able to move. You think that you cannot move a muscle. But vigorous exercise, there is such strong evidence to say that moving your body will help you heal. It's basic, but adequate rest, good nutrition, you are really truly worth caring for. If your children were going through a crisis, you would make sure they had breakfast, lunch and dinner and they had naps. Podcasts, blogs, vlogs, library books, there are online and in person communities. I want to give some caution and caveats to online communities. Please consider your rules of engagement. Consider them for yourself, not just what the rules of engagement of the online community are. Consider how do you want to interface What do you want to get out of this? What do you want to bring to this. And remember that online, the online world is a made-up world, really. So there are many safe secular spaces in which to flourish, and eventually to heal and eventually flourish. Don't be afraid to seek those out. 41:09 Most of us were reluctant to face the agony of abuse. I remember talking to my trauma therapist, when I first met her, and I said I'm not sure if my story is bad enough to really warrant a trauma therapist. I can't believe I don't know. But that's what I thought then. It's your choice whether or not you're going to confront the horrors of your present or your past. Nobody can or should force you to do that. We do believe that if we open up that Pandora's box of pain that, you know, we'll never be able to shut it, and it will just overwhelm our lives. I want to tell you something. That's the very thing you should do, the thing you don't want to look at. And the box you don't want to open are the very things that slowly, safely, securely in gradiated fashion. Those are the things you need to look at. Those are the places you need to go. Traumatic memories are buried alive. And grief can be really, really, really complicated by an unlimited number of factors. But grieving does come to an end, believe it or not. “Crying is alright while it lasts,” says CS Lewis, “but sooner or later, you have to stop sooner or later. And then you got to decide what to do.” 42:46 Reintegration. Reintegration to me means neither being defined by your trauma or denying it. Establishing yourself once again as an independent “I.” Who was I before this happened? Who am I now? And who's like Carson said, “who do I want to be?” Getting to know yourself, including being aware that there are things about yourself that you don't yet know. Self-knowledge is a process. How is my role changed in my family and my faith community, with my employ, compared to what it was then. How can I contribute to community of my choice in a way that's based on my strengths? And how can I live a life, some of us for the first time, how can I live a life that includes me? 43:51 This brings us to the topic of agency. Agency is not only the feeling but the actual capacity to have control over your own life. In Christendom, we're like, well, God has a plan for you, so you shouldn't have one. Crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. And in his book, Trauma, Dr. Paul Conti suggests that agency is a verb, that's something that you do rather than a noun, which is the person, place, or thing. And there's a difference between being in a car, being the passenger in a car and being the driver of the car. And one of the questions that we should ask ourselves is, “how old is the person who's driving your emotional car?” At too many junctions in my life, someone who should not have had the keys, was steering my car into seas of sorrow repeatedly. I was compulsively compliant, which essentially meant that my no was broke. And when compliance is the only possibility, consent is utterly impossible. If you can't say no, then you can't say yes either. 45:05 Abuse and abusers try to define you. Just search on the internet, there's lots of definitions of me. They take away your choice. In the process of reintegration, you actually get to choose who you want to be. The most beautiful people I know without fail, are the ones who have dug through the rubble and made something beautiful. Some of these people may live and die in insufficiency, but they have found a way to make beauty from ashes. And that is who I want to be. I was astonished to realize that with much practice and patience, I developed an intact sense of self. That was a miracle. I didn't, you know, you fill in the blank yourself, that was a miracle. And I differentiated from others. If you wanted your eggs like that, that's how I have my eggs. If you like that restaurant, that's how I'd like that restaurant. If you wear those clothes, that's the clothes I would wear. I'm able to hold my own “No,” while carefully considering what yes would mean. Many survivors negotiate their trauma in the privacy of their own lives. My entire family, they don't even know what I'm doing here. It's fine. My sisters, my mother, my brother, we don't talk about these things. It's okay. That's how they're negotiating their trauma. But there's a subsection of trauma survivors that (a small percentage of us) want to feel compelled to altruistically engage in advocacy, in some way, shape, or form. This is an altruism born of suffering. And suffering can create a need to help, and it has in me, I think I'm a helper by nature. But this has to be congruent with your life narrative, and also consistent with your strengths. I continue to seek meaningful ways to serve the survivor community, that increases my strength but diminishes my sorrow. When seeking to serve others, I looked at all sorts of options when I finished grad school. Most of them, it was kind of fun, because too many stories to tell. But most of them would leave me hemorrhaging with trauma and like in trauma with the person who's in trauma. So the last thing survivors needed is for the person who's trying to help them to also be falling apart. So there's caveats, if you decide that you're going to develop a survivor mission that is in the public sphere, one, get to know yourself, get and keep good therapeutic help. It may help you it may help you to serve others, but it's not about you. Wherever you see individuals, or organizations who are recreating the dynamic you left, it's a red flag. Here's some other red flags so you're ready. Dominance. In any culture or any person where dominance, subordination, and submission is the name of the game. Where people tell you what to think, instead of how to think, where people give you advice versus information, where people will speak for you instead of empowering you to speak for yourself, doing with rather than doing for, whose actions appear to be wholly invested in building up their platform rather than people. Don't let anybody use you that way. Remember that we're supposed to be a people of mutuality and reciprocity. While these things feel familiar, they have no place in the survivor community that we're trying to cultivate. 48:48 We have to learn to cultivate healthy decision-making processes. Y'all need to stop being so dang nice. Offenders not only tell you what they think, they also tell you what you should think too. Learning to think for yourself is worth its weight in gold, and it is a skill that takes time and practice. This is important, you will know if you have successfully navigated the reintegration process if these four things are in place. Are you ready? You are able to tolerate the symptoms that are associated with PTSD within reasonable limits. That doesn't mean you won't have them. You have PTSD, but you're able to tolerate those symptoms and you have coping skills. And that includes number two, being able to manage the feelings of trauma. You saw that I went in and out of feeling very emotional, but I managed, right?. You can call up your traumatic memories under your own volitional control and they don't control you. The memories of the event or events have a cogent narrative that you can convey if you want to, and they're importantly, and I talked to Carson about this before he spoke importantly, they're connected to your feelings. And my final comment about reintegration. And I say this with absolute care and concern for not only your well-being but my own. I urge you to cultivate a personal and private life. One that has not lived out before your abuser or your abusive community. One that honors your own humanity, protects your person and allows your roots to grow and allows you to bear fruit. 50:36 I want to talk about justice in the moral community, and then I'm going to wrap it up. The idea of a moral community is a concept wherein a group of people have a social contract, and they respect a certain moral code, a group of people in whom you trust, and you believe will have your back. It does not have to be a faith community. But very often faith communities fall into that category. For faith communities to be a place of healing, it's critical that the demand for justice in the context of the moral community must be shared by the group. We all need to be outraged. Julie asked the other day, people ask her why she's so mad. And she says why are you not mad? We all need to be outraged. And yeah, absolutely. And what Paulo Freire calls, “our just ire.” We need to get our backs up about this stuff. And we need to ask the following question, or we want to be asked the following question as well. What would it take to repair the harm? Or at least as much as possible? This requires that people listen. Universally, we want public acknowledgement of the harm universally. If the harm has been public, we want publicly acknowledgement. We want the right. Somebody asked me once, you know, how far does this apology from RZIM needs to go? And I said needs to go as far as what the damage to me has gone. 51:55 And we all want protection from others, and we want moral vindication. We want somebody to stand up and say that bastard was wrong, not her. There are roads to justice and many of you know those roads to justice, and they're probably not worth getting into. But what is required of you is required that you do justice, and that we love mercy. And mercy doesn't look like re-platforming anyone or sharing platforms of abusers. But it does look like honoring your own humanity and even the humanity of the people who have wounded you. I am speaking after two people who sought my slaughter. That fact is not lost on me. 52:59 And it also requires us to walk with humility. Humility says that although we have been wronged, we are people who are capable of wrong as well. It means cultivating a culture and a posture, not of deference, as I have heard so often, but one of gratitude. Not gratitude for the harm that you have suffered and in many ways continue to suffer, but gratitude that unlike your offender, you get to choose who you want to be. You can cultivate your character, you can nurture empathy, and you can become the person that you desperately wished that others had been for you. I spoke for the last time, I spoke at RESTORE last year in 2023. And while I'm not certain at present, I do feel I felt coming here to this conference this time that this season is coming to an end for me, which is why I had an epitaph here for you today. It's in keeping with my own core values that I didn't know I had but I now can name of equality and mutuality and reciprocity. I am going to be taking a seat and letting others speak. I've also come to know that my own person is most effective when I can pursue excellence and you deserve excellence. For me that requires concentrated effort in one domain. 54:34 Additionally, I didn't survive all of this to not really live and neither have you. Julie is going to talk to you about why not quit and I am here to tell you can. It has been a privilege to speak with you. I'm sorry I took up so much of your time. It is an honor and you have been my joy. Thank you for your absorbent listening and for bringing the weight of your pain and for bearing the weight of mine. I opened with saying that I didn't choose to be part of this community. But I close with this, I would choose any one of you any day of the week. Something rare and true and beautiful emerges when an innocent victim endures abuse and finds a way to flourish in the aftermath of injustice, and you are truly beautiful. Thank you. Read more

How to Judge ‘Independent’ Investigations

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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 14, 2023 49:07

Guest Bios Show Transcript Third-party investigations have become increasingly common as churches and Christian institutions continue to be rocked by scandal. But how can you tell if an investigation is truly independent—or just another attempt to cover up? In this edition of The Roys Report, experts address the red flags and key features to look for in any so-called “independent” investigation. And they answer questions like: Can a third-party investigation by a law firm ever be truly independent? What advantages are there to hiring an investigative team that's familiar with church culture to conduct investigations involving Christian institutions? And what are the hallmarks of a “trauma-informed” investigation? The answers to these questions are especially relevant due to the current controversy over the third-party investigation announced by the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, or IHOPKC. Mike Bickle, IHOPKC's founder, has been accused of abusing multiple women and IHOPKC leaders have been accused of mishandling reports of abuse. After announcing it had hired a national law firm to conduct the investigation, IHOPKC changed course and dismissed the law firm. Then, it hired another law firm, but is refusing to divulge the name of the new firm. Joining us on the podcast is a top American litigator and former GoDaddy general counsel, who's also a Christian with a passion to protect victims. That litigator is Christine Jones, who also serves on the board of The Roys Report. She has considerable expertise in this area and her insights on this issue are incredibly helpful. Two other experts joining me, Pete Singer and Robert Peters, are known for the organization they lead—Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment, or GRACE. GRACE has become the gold standard in the Christian survivor community because of the quality of its investigations and its commitment to protect survivor interests. Listen now for a lively, and eye-opening discussion that will help you discern whether to trust a third-party investigation—or to cry foul. Guests Christine N. Jones Christine N. Jones is a top American litigator, business executive, and civic leader who has a passion to protect the vulnerable. Until 2012, she served as general counsel for GoDaddy. During her time there, she helped drive federal Internet-related legislation, including laws to keep the internet safe from child predators like the Protect Our Children Act and the Keeping the Internet Devoid of Sexual Predators Act. Christine also practiced law at Beus Gilbert, which has been ranked as one of the top law firms in the country. She also served several years as the COO of the Prostate Cancer Foundation. Christine recently launched her own firm, Newman Jones, a private law firm in Arizona, which specializes in representing victims of abuse in churches and Christian organizations. Pete Singer Pete Singer is Executive Director at GRACE, which focuses on abuse prevention and response in faith communities. He is a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker with 30+ years' experience across settings. He received his MSW and certificate in Trauma-Effective Leadership from the University of Minnesota. He trains and writes on trauma-informed practice and his counseling practice focuses on children and adults who have experienced trauma. He has published and contributed to a number of articles and book chapters including Wounded Souls: The Need for Child Protection Professionals and Faith Leaders to Recognize and Respond to the Spiritual Impact of Child Abuse and forthcoming work Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse. Robert Peters Robert Peters has been with GRACE over 10 years and is currently the Director of Institutional Response, where he oversees all investigations and assessments. He served as an Assistant Prosecuting Attorney and Special Prosecutor in multiple West Virginia jurisdictions, where he specialized in the prosecution of sexual offenses, civil child abuse and neglect, and online child exploitation. He has been published in peer-reviewed journals. Visit netgrace.org Show Transcript SPEAKERSCHRISTINE JONES, PETER SINGER, Julie Roys, ROBERT PETERS Julie Roys 00:05Third party investigations have become increasingly common as churches and Christian institutions continue to be rocked by scandal. But how can you tell if an investigation is truly independent, or just another attempt to cover up? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And our topic today has become a big issue because an organization facing a major scandal just hired a law firm to conduct its third-party investigation. That organization is the International House of Prayer in Kansas City or IHOP. And if you’ve been following this story, you know that IHOP founder, Mike Bickle, has been accused of abusing multiple women and IHOP itself has been accused in mishandling multiple reports of abuse. The Roys Report has published several articles about this scandal. So, if you need some background on the story, I encourage you to go to JULIEROYS.COM, and then click on the investigations tab, and you can find all those stories on IHOP.** Julie Roys 01:05 But joining me today to discuss these issues is a top American litigator who’s also a Christian with a passion to protect victims. That litigator is Christine Jones, who also serves on the board of The Roys Report. And she has so much expertise in this area. So, I’m very excited to pick her brain on this issue. But also joining me are Pete Singer and Robert Peters of Godly Repose to Abuse in a Christian Environment or GRACE. GRACE has become the gold standard in the Christian survivor community because of the quality of its investigations and its commitment to protect survivor interests. So, I’m very excited about today’s podcast.** Julie Roys 01:45 But before we dive in, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.** Julie Roys 02:49 Well again joining me today are Pete Singer and Robert Peters from GRACE which stands for Godly Repose to Abuse in a Christian Environment And GRACE is one of the most respected organizations in the Christian survivor community when it comes to independent investigations. And I’m really looking forward to talking with them and getting a behind the scenes look about how these investigations are done. But first, I’d like to introduce Christine Jones. Christine is a top litigator, business executive, and civic leader who has a passion to protect the vulnerable. Until 2012. she served as general counsel for GoDaddy. She also practice law at BS Gilbert, which has been ranked as one of the top law firms in the country. And she recently launched her own firm Newman Jones, a private law firm in Phoenix, Arizona. But her greatest claim to fame by far is serving as a board member for The Roys Report. So, Christine, welcome. I’m so glad you could join us. CHRISTINE JONES 03:43 Thank you, Julie. So great to be here. And that is by far my best claim to fame for the record. Julie Roys 03:48 Absolutely. I’m glad that you clarified that. So, Christine, I wanted to talk to you first because there’s been a lot of buzz lately about law firms conducting third party investigations. And this is nothing new, Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. For example, when they did their investigation, they brought in a law firm Miller Martin, there was a law firm Husch Blackwell, that investigated Cedarville University after it hired a known sexual predator that was a couple of years ago. But right now, the International House of Prayer in Kansas City IHOP is facing a major crisis. So IHOP has just announced that they’re going to do a third-party investigation, and they initially hired a law firm Stinson LLP, to conduct this investigation, but there’s been a lot of pushback because there are a lot of people saying that no investigation by a law firm is truly independent. Well, then last Friday evening, IHOP announced that it had decided not to proceed with Stinson. And the reason that IHOP gave was that third parties claiming to represent the victims had communicated a lack of trust in Stinson. So now IHOP is said that it’s hired a local law firm to investigate, but when I asked IHOP to identify the law firm Lenny LaGuardia, a member of IHOP’s executive team replied, and I quote, We will not be publishing her name out of respect for her privacy. When I asked an additional clarifying question about the attorney, LaGuardia responded, IHOP, KC will not be providing any personal information about its attorneys, they are not the story and you should know better, unquote. So, Christine, say hypothetically, that one of the alleged victims of Mike Bickle is your client. Would you advise your client to cooperate with this investigation? CHRISTINE JONES 05:35 So setting aside the attorney independence for one moment, I would say , all else being equal, if you have some information that’s germane to the discussion, then you know, and you’re not being re traumatized or re victimized and you have the capacity to do it, probably, I would advise them to go ahead and give the information because that is going to be helpful to the outcome, the recommendations or you know, whatever the third party investigator is doing. Now, I have to say that with a caveat, as always, these people may be bound by preexisting contractual relationships that limit what they can say. And in that case, they should probably seek the counsel of an attorney before they do that. Julie Roys 06:14 So, the fact that the attorney isn’t being named to the public, do you see that as a major problem? CHRISTINE JONES 06:21 Well, this entire scene has unfolded in such an unusual way. And I have followed a little bit of the back and forth on social media. Stinson, a well-respected law firm being named actually probably was positive, because they do have such a good reputation in the legal community, I don’t know that they had a previous attorney client relationship with IHOP. So that could have at least set a path for them to have independence in this scenario. But here’s the thing, not disclosing who the lawyer is for the sake of protecting the lawyer’s privacy is a very unusual suggestion. And the answer that you got on that inquiry is puzzling to me, because the attorney’s privacy is not the issue here. So, I hate to use the word excuse, Julie. But it does sound to me like they’re just using that as a cover up for their own lack of transparency in this process. Julie Roys 07:16 Well, the lawyer is the professional, I mean, this is their job, their public, it does seem like a very odd response. development that happened over the weekend is that Ben Anderson, who I guess is a former IHOP staff member, posted on Facebook, the name of the person he believes is the attorney that’s been hired by IHOP. I have tried to confirm it again, went to IHOP. And they will not confirm or deny that this person is the person but the person that he has named publicly on Facebook is friends, apparently with IHOP executive leadership. And apparently, after he posted some social media posts showing this relationship, this attorney deleted her Facebook account and some social media. So, it does seem to be a little fishy, what’s going on. But let’s say that this person is the person but again, we’re not able to determine for sure whether or not that’s true. If somebody is friends with the executive leadership, if perhaps and I guess there’s some indications that she may actually attend IHOP’s church Forerunner, essentially, if that’s the case, correct me if I’m wrong, has it moved from being a third party independent or some semblance of independent investigation? Now we’re really looking at an internal investigation? CHRISTINE JONES 08:39 Well, let’s talk about the investigation itself before we get to the crux of that question. An attorney could conceivably conduct an independent investigation. Here’s the rub; any attorney client relationship comes with the fiduciary duty that the attorney owes to the client. And look, if this attorney doesn’t want to disclose the fact of the engagement because the attorney feels like in their ethical opinion, that would violate some kind of fiduciary responsibility that they have, that’s their decision. The client certainly can disclose it. But getting back to the independence. The issue here is I was gonna say it’s twofold. It’s actually three-fold. Here, if you have a relationship that’s existing with the executives, it’d be very difficult to claim you have independence on this particular issue. You may even be a percipient witness, you may even be a fact witness, which is a huge red flag for any attorney going into any kind of engagement. The second thing is if you have this existing attorney client relationship, it’s almost impossible to conduct an independent investigation because you are already required to demonstrate a duty of loyalty to the client, which is the antithesis of independence. It is the exact opposite of independence. No client wants their attorney to be independent of them. That’s why you hire an attorney, right? So, let’s just say it’s a generic person, we don’t know who they are, any lawyer out there, pick a name. If they had that existing relationship, and they have a hope of a relationship in the future, they’re already making money from this client, and they hope to make money from the client in the future, it would be virtually impossible under the ethical rules for them to be considered independent in this investigation. Now, if it’s a huge law firm, they have hundreds of lawyers in different cities, you know, could one department do the investigation, another department do the advising? Possibly, but that certainly doesn’t seem to be the case here. And it strikes me that IHOP getting rid of Stinson is them backtracking. They’re getting themselves dug into a deeper hole here that they were even in before. They’re not improving their situation, they’re making it worse, Julie Roys 10:59 Good points that you brought up. I mean, the fiduciary responsibility the lawyer has to its client, and then the possibility of, you know, some sort of relationship in the future, obviously complicating things, and this is why in the very beginning, people were like, Oh, my goodness, they hired a law firm. And what a lot of people were asking for was an organization like GRACE, Godly Repose to Abuse in a Christian Environment, who plays by very different rules. And again, they’re going to be joining us in just a bit and we’ll hear about what they do that is different. But is there ever a situation in which we can say this is truly an independent investigation when you’re being hired by the organization that you’re investigating? CHRISTINE JONES 10:59 I guess it’s possible. If you had an engagement that had a well-defined set of terms, and your role was only to determine a set of facts. Issue a report that said, here’s the timeline on this date, at this time, in this place, this proper noun did the following. And you just gave the report with no recommendation, no observation, no characterization, no coloring of the facts, you could conceivably be independent. It would always be the client’s decision about whether those findings would be released. It’s a really tricky situation for the finest law firm in the best circumstances. Somebody who has a preexisting relationship, which I understand if the lawyer is who we think it is, is in a really precarious position, claiming that they’re independent, and that their findings are going to be completely objective. Julie Roys 12:34 So, a little over a week ago, Michael Brown, Dr. Michael Brown spoke at IHOP. And he announced that there was going to be this independent investigation. And Michael is someone who’s very well respected within the charismatic community. And again, IHOP-KC is a charismatic organization. So, I think they were bringing in someone who would be a trusted voice. And so, he argued that the Christian community could trust this investigation, because IHOP had pledged to make these findings public. And again, I know with RZIM, when they were doing the Miller Martin investigation that was the crux right for them was whether or not they were going to make these findings public. I don’t know if that’s still on the table, to be honest, given that things have changed. But let’s assume that it is and IHOP is going to make the findings public. I guess the question is, even when they make the findings public are we talking the complete findings? Is this a redacted finding? Is this the part of the findings you want us to know? I mean, is this really much of an assurance that the findings are going to be public? Or would we still say, you know, as the public looking to get some assurance that this is really been investigated, that we can trust what they’re reporting? CHRISTINE JONES 13:46 It’s tricky, right? Unless you had actual recordings of conversations, and maybe you had a third-party observer sitting in on those conversations and hearing the results of the investigatory process, it would be almost impossible to say, Now, I don’t want to bad mouth Mr. Brown, you know, reputationally, he’s an upstanding guy. But we’re not judging his statement here. What we’re saying is, lawyers are humans, and humans have bias. And if I’m a victim, I’m a survivor, or I come forward or even I’m a close associate of one or I’ve been part of this community for a long time., and I know somebody who is, I’m still going to have to question, did that human who is a lawyer, conduct this in a way that I can rely on the findings? I will never know because I will never know what the process was that they used. And I already know, particularly if this lawyer is part of the church, but I will already know that they have gone into it with a preset bias that will make it very difficult for them not to filter their conversations and their findings through their preexisting relationship. Julie Roys 14:59 And one thing I didn’t mention I mean, which you’ve hinted at, I mean, there is an engagement and a letter of engagement that’s signed between the client and the law firm. Is it ever okay to release that letter of engagement? And also, I know, for example, the Southern Baptist Convention when the executive committee was being investigated, they actually waived under a great deal of pressure, their attorney client privilege. Is that something that we could expect or should expect in a situation like this? CHRISTINE JONES 15:30 That’s a really interesting question. And here, it’s probably not going to be the same outcome as what we saw on the SBC, which as you said was exceptional. The client owns that privilege, the client gets to pick whether the privilege is waived. Here, the motivation for IHOP to give more information is probably well, I mean, it’s going to be tricky for them, right? Because anything that they find that’s derogatory, they’re gonna be less inclined to disclose it, right? We don’t have the power, sort of as third parties who don’t have privity to this contract, to require them to disclose it. Could there be some community pressure, either by survivors or by members of the community, like what we saw in the SBC? I suppose it’s possible. But even let’s say that they produce the engagement letter. Let’s say they sent it to you, and you published it. Let’s say they gave us the entire report, right? It’s still gonna come with the names of minors redacted, it’s probably still going to have some information that’s viewed as relevant to a criminal investigation or, you know, somehow protective of victims' rights redacted. So, will you ever see the entirety of it? You know, as I sit here today, I would say probably not. Julie Roys 16:46 Yeah. Well, we will see as the story continues to unfold, but Christine really appreciate you being willing to come on and lend your expertise, which has just been such a blessing to The Roys. Report, and to our listeners today, as well. So, thank you so much. CHRISTINE JONES 17:01 My pleasure. And can we say one last thing in conclusion? Just in case anybody from IHOP-KC is listening to this podcast? IHOP, hire an independent third party to do this investigation. Let them find out what the facts were and hire a separate counsel to give you the advice on what to do with it. Why cloud the perception of what’s going on here? If you want to clean your house, clean your house and do it well. Julie Roys 17:25 Thank you. And I would second those thoughts. Appreciate that so much. CHRISTINE JONES 17:29 Thanks for having me, Julie. Julie Roys 17:31 Absolutely. Well, now, Peter Singer, and Robert Peters are going to join us from GRACE. And Pete is the executive director of GRACE and a licensed clinical social worker with about 30 years of experience. He also has a master’s degree in social work and a certificate in trauma effective leadership from the University of Minnesota. So, Pete, such a privilege to have you join me. Thanks so much. PETER SINGER 17:55 Thank you. It’s great to be here. Really appreciate the chance, Julie. Julie Roys 17:59 And also joining me is Robert Peters, who oversees all investigations and assessments at GRACE. He formerly served as an assistant prosecuting attorney and special prosecutor in several jurisdictions in West Virginia. And in that capacity, he specialized in the prosecution of sexual offences, child abuse and neglect, and online child exploitation. So, Robert, so glad to have you on The Roys Report podcast. And I think, as I mentioned earlier, that I think this is the first time we’ve had two lawyers on our podcast. So welcome. ROBERT PETERS 18:32 Great to be here. And I hope we don’t break any podcast length records unless you’re going for that. In which case, you’re welcome. Julie Roys 18:39 So, GRACE has become, and I mentioned this before, sort of the gold standard when it comes to investigations. And that’s quite a badge of honor for you guys. And I know, it’s not just the investigations, but also the manner in which you treat victims. And that has given you a distinction among the survivor community. Right now, there is a petition circulating and I know you don’t want to comment on this, but there is a petition circulating urging IHOP hire GRACE to conduct its investigation because of, I think, the respect that you have within this community. What is unique with what you do? And let’s start with your expertise, because you focus specifically on investigations involving churches and Christian organizations. Pete talk about that, and how that perspective is perhaps different from a lot of organizations like a law firm, but even some other organizations that do similar type investigations, but not in this kind of space, but more normally in more of a corporate space. PETER SINGER 19:42 Sure, really, really important things that come into play here. A big piece of that is an understanding the criteria that we’re looking at, isn’t just what does the law say? Yes, that is a very, very significant piece of criteria. But beyond that, we’re also looking at what is God saying? And at times, it can be very difficult for a law firm or other private investigative agency as part of the investigation to also do a theological review. And to say, Okay, let’s look at what happened here. And now we’ll examine that in light of Scripture. And one of the things that I think is unique about the way that GRACE does an investigation, is that GRACE brings in an incredible, incredible experience. Our investigators come from a background similar to what Robert is bringing in his background or from extensive law enforcement experience. They’re also bringing in that theological experience. They’re also bringing the understanding and the familiarity with church culture, church governance. For example, when we do a report associated with, let’s just say, a Presbyterian Church that might be governed by the Book of Church Order, we’ve got people on staff who are experts in the Book of Church Order, and we can specifically craft recommendations that fit within the Book of Church Order. And so being able to pull in that experience, as well as an understanding of what Scripture says about this. Because scripture is not silent on this; Scripture speaks so often of the Scripture sayings., In First Samuel, that Hophni and Phinehas, the sons of Eli who was the high priest of the tent. Hasni and Phineas were acting as priests in Israel. Scripture calls them worthless men. Why? Because they used their position of spiritual authority to have sex with people. Scripture is calling out clergy sexual abuse.** PETER SINGER 21:53 And then we’ll fast forward to the New Testament, and we’ve got Jesus calling out against child sexual abuse, anything that would harm a child, against elder abuse, against financial exploitation, against spiritual abuse. So a GRACE team brings in both that incredible legal background, similar to what Robert has, or many of the people who have been in law enforcement on our team have. But then an ability to blend that with what does scripture say? And what do we know about trauma? We have many, many published articles from people at GRACE, whether they’re our investigators, people on our leadership team, people on our board of directors that help explain the very nature of trauma and trauma informed practice. And we’ve got an article coming out at the end of the year that will be published in Currents in Theology and Mission, theology journal, that will be taking six key principles of trauma informed practice and saying, what does that look like when it’s applied in a church? When GRACE or an organization like GRACE comes in to do an investigation, that is all automatically a part of the analysis of this situation. And for an organization that does not have that deep embedded background within the Christian culture within churches, how are they going to be able to bring in and analyze the situation in light of Scripture? How are they going to be able to blend trauma informed practice and Scripture? And how are they going to bring those excellent qualifications like Robert has and the members of his team, Julie Roys 23:44 Great points that you’re making, and I can relate as a journalist who works exclusively in the Christian space. And I’ve also worked in secular newsrooms. And it’s interesting when I did work in secular newsrooms, how much they misunderstood the language, or they misunderstood the culture, and they just weren’t able to report properly. And frankly, Christians didn’t trust them, because they didn’t know, they didn’t understand, they would misinterpret things. For me as a reporter, it’s hugely important that I understand spiritual abuse, for example, to understand how these communities work, as far as you know, a lot of these folks, it’s not like a work environment where you go, and then you come home, and you have your family and your community. This is their family and their community often. There is no leaving in many ways, and it encompasses all areas of their life. And so, I do think that having we call it a beat in journalism, I mean, you know, your beat, you know, really, really well and you understand the culture, you understand the people. I think the same thing sounds like what you’re saying is what GRACE is doing with investigations in this space.** Julie Roys 24:48 Let’s talk about the independence and objectivity because Christine was talking a lot about that. You know, law firms obviously have a fiduciary responsibility to their clients, but you’re hired by clients. And again, I’m looking at this as a journalist. I can’t even have you buy me lunch; I can take no money from you. I’ve been offered numerous times, hey, we’ll fly you out to interview or flight. And I’m like, well, if I’m going to do the story, you can’t fly me out, you can’t do anything for me, and you can’t put me up, I need to come on my own dime, which is hard to say, because we have such a limited budget and stories we’d like to cover, right? But for us, if we take money, we’re not objective, right? I mean, that’s how strict it is for journalists in this space. So, I mean, talk about that, because you’re obviously being hired by organizations that you do investigations on,. How does that not make you beholden to your client? ROBERT PETERS 25:38 The two-word answer would be structural independence. And that’s really critical of the contractual phase,. You know, in the discussions that we have with churches, where those discussions either prove to be fruitful or not, that’s the crucible. That’s where these things tend to either solidify, either grudgingly or smoothly to an independent investigation, or where they tend to flame out spectacularly. So, it really varies. And what I mean by structural independence, you know, and these are good questions that the perhaps survivors should be asking, before participating in any investigation, frankly, not just those that are undertaken by law firms. But yeah, what sort of is going into that? Is there some sort of those fiduciary pieces is there an attorney client relationship. We are not a law firm; we don’t provide legal services. So, we’re not coming into some of the same ethical obligations. I am an attorney, but I don’t function as an attorney within GRACE, or anything related to GRACE. So, there’s that piece of it, where we’re just sort of structurally ethically different and legally different.** ROBERT PETERS 26:40 But then there’s contractual independence and the nature of the contract itself. No one sets a limit on the amount of interviews that we have. We may have estimates based on the facts that are presented to us by churches we’re having discussions with, but we’re very clear and the contracts provide for it. That’s ultimately an investigative determination of even the number of interviews. And so that becomes complicated right financially. Because certainly, we do need to pay our employees and contractors for the work, we want to continue equipping the church and equipping survivors, that takes resources. But we also want to make sure that we have maximum discretion in order that we don’t have those sort of perverse incentives and threads, bold and leveraged in ways that are unproductive to justice, that are unproductive to transparency. So, things like disclaiming those pieces expressly, but also ensuring that we have that type of discretion. Additionally, also at the risk of being inflammatory, GRACE is not a mud flap. And there are entities that sometimes unfortunately operate as mud flaps, meaning they direct the dirt into particular locations. They put emphasis of culpability on particular locations. And isn’t it interesting how that tends to align with the priorities of the individuals that are paying the bills? GRACE is not a mud flap. And so, when it comes to the other report drafting process itself, we do accept feedback, both from designated members of church leadership, as well as reporting victims. They always receive a copy of this report during the embargo period where we’re accepting feedback,. That feedback is limited to a few specific areas, that feedback is limited to is there something that’s factually inaccurate, not something I don’t like, we do get that feedback. But the feedback we’ll consider is limited to something that’s factually inaccurate, something that’s inconsistent with the church theology or polity, because we want to be culturally informed as we’re conducting these investigations. And then is there something that’s overly Identifying in the reporting victim? Those are things that we want flagged in the event that this report is elected to be made public, either by the church or by reporting victims who also have discretion to make public. There’s sort of those structural pieces where the church is no longer in control of that piece. And there have been cases where we simply don’t get contracts because some cultures that unfortunately, don’t have that healthy view of power dynamics, and aren’t really understanding the importance of engaging in that hard work. And it is hard work. And it is vulnerable work. Sometimes churches don’t see that necessity or correctly see the risks of that approach, and ultimately get the client to move forward with this. On the other hand, some do bravely step into that. And it is a difficult process, but it’s ultimately a necessary process for survivors, and ultimately, for the well-being of the church. Julie Roys 29:20 Let’s talk about the report because this is a really, really key part of GRACE. So often the report as for example, we mentioned Ravi Zacharias International Ministries when they employed Miller, Martin, there were a couple things. And one is the scope of the investigation, which initially was very narrow, but because there was a lot of media pressure, and I know we published a story the minute I got some documentation saying this was limited, very narrowly we published on it, and then it broadened right? And that’s the beauty of the pressure of the publicity. But also with Miller Martin, that report was given to RZIM and there, I know from talking to people, there was a battle as to whether or not to release that to the public. And ultimately, it was the board’s decision. But I know there was so much public pressure and that was released publicly the full report, which was I mean, like a bomb went off, right? I mean, that was huge. So, let’s talk about that with what you’re doing. There have been reports that you’ve done that haven’t been released to the public. But what you do is unique in that you don’t just release it to the organizations that’s paying you. But you release it to somebody else, as well. Talk about that. PETER SINGER 30:38 It’s absolutely essential that that happens. It can’t just be the church, or ministry, that was the Sikh of the abuse. That can’t be the only person that holds the power of the report. Because that report is power. We specifically have in the contract that we do not assign the copyright of the report to anybody, which means that nobody has the ability to say you can’t publish that. And then often, there is a recommendation something to the effect of church leadership work with survivors to figure out the best way to distribute this.** PETER SINGER 31:21 Now, GRACE used to have a relatively standard recommendation of distribute this. But then, several years ago, what happened was a survivor said, What are you doing? Now, everybody will know who I am. I, the survivor did not want that distributed. And so, once that situation occurred, we changed how we address that. So that we tell the church generally, work with the survivor to figure out how to distribute this because sometimes survivors don’t want it more public. And then it’s that balance between empowerment and safety. Julie Roys 32:04 Yeah. And that that always is the attention; it’s definitely attention in what I do as well. You want to always have a survivor centered approach in the way that you move forward with these things. And here’s something that, again, would be what we’ve heard recently, and we reported recently with IHOP, is people coming forward reporting, and then being traumatized when they report. Being interrogated, being gaslit, being grilled from very much an, aren’t you lying? kind of perspective or doubting what they’re saying, very skeptical. How do you keep from being re traumatized as somebody who comes forward? And what assurance do they have that they’re not going to be re traumatized? Because a lot of these people have been burned multiple times. And do you see what you do as uniquely protective of survivors? ROBERT PETERS 32:58 Yeah, that’s such a critical question, Julie, and there’s a lot of different layers, I think, to what it means to provide a safe environment for witnesses, particularly survivors of abuse. I think it’s worth noting, tragically, how rare it is, for professionals in the field of sexual abuse investigation itself, let alone what I would consider ancillary professionals, which is most attorneys to engage well in this context in a way that does not inflict further harm. And let me double down on that a little bit. So prior to coming on board at GRACE, I spent the past four years at Zero Abuse Project before that at the National White Collar Crime Center, training law enforcement and child abuse prosecutors in all 50 states. Regrettably, some of them are virtual, like Hawaii. I’m not bitter about that at all. But pandemics were great. But one thing I learned, first of all, there are some incredibly gifted professionals that work in these spaces. And so, I don’t want my next statement to undercut the fact that they’re absolute heroes working for very low wages, extremely hard work, giving themselves, expanding themselves sacrificially. So, this is not a statement about those individuals. But the other reality is that many, possibly most individuals in law enforcement and prosecution are not competent to handle these cases. That’s just the reality. I’m talking criminal context. They’re simply not. There is a high level of specialization, there’s a high level of training, a high level of skill in achieving competence, let alone excellence in conducting sexual assault and child abuse investigations. And that’s true in the civil context as well. There are so many moving parts when it comes to the complexity of trauma. When it comes to how do you question, when it comes to accurately identifying grooming behaviors, when it comes to even your posture with witnesses? How do you build rapport? There’s just a whole host of pieces. But the reality is that specialization breeds excellence. We know that’s true in medicine. We know that’s true in every other context. It's true in investigations as well. If you’re not constantly building up those skills, staying current on literature, staying current on tactics, you’re not going to be competent, you’re going to inflict further harm. And simply having a PhD or a JD doesn’t make that any less likely; it might make it more likely. And so, it really just depends. And again, once again, I want to be very clear, there are attorneys that do a phenomenal job, that I call for advice on a frequent basis when it comes to conducting investigations. But I think it takes a lot of caution and humility to say, simply by virtue of being a law firm, there’s a qualification here. There needs to be some careful scrutiny of what those qualifications are, what type of credentials do the individuals involved have when it comes to forensic interviewing? What are the relevant publications, right? What protocol of forensic interviewing do they utilize? There’s a great deal of expertise that comes into not inflicting further harm in these interviews. I think there’s also a posture of intentional integration of trauma informed principles is that's very much in the DNA that started with Bob Tchividjian. And now it has grown with Pete Singer, what he’s brought from the mental health care field, in terms of how we interact with all witnesses, but especially survivors of abuse. PETER SINGER 36:08 As we head into these interviews, those trauma informed principles that Robert talked about, these are things, one that we’re going to evaluate the church on. And two that we’re going to evaluate ourselves on. How are we doing this in the continuance of an investigation? So, these are the principles that need to govern our interview. The first and foremost is safety, physical safety, psychological safety, spiritual safety. The second, as I mentioned before, trust worthiness and transparency. The third, peer support. As long as they’re not another witness, a witness or a victim can bring a support person with them. As long as they’re not somebody else that would be a witness, bring that person with you to provide support. The fourth principle is collaboration and mutuality. That means work together with the person that’s been harmed, work together within our own group or among those who are specialists here at GRACE, and work together outside of our group. So, for example, when we’re doing an international investigation, we bring in cultural consultants to help us understand that culture so that we don’t make cultural flubs. Then empowerment, voice, and choice. How are we empowering those who have been harmed? How are we giving their voice a platform so that it can be heard? And then the final principle is humility, in the face of historical, cultural and gender factors, which simply cannot be separated from the trauma. Julie Roys 37:52 So good. You have done an investigation for IHOP in the past, and that investigation, as I understand, never became public. Is there anything that you can say to shed light on that investigation, or how that might impact your moving forward, if you didn’t move forward with IHOP? PETER SINGER 38:16 Sure, what I can say is that it was a completed investigation. What I can say is that consistent with our practice, the church was given a copy of the report, and anyone identified as a reported victim was given a copy of the report. I can also say that nobody was told not to distribute the report by GRACE. I can say that there have been some situations where GRACE has done multiple investigations for organizations. So having completed an investigation previously, does not prohibit GRACE, as long as we don’t feel that there’s a conflict of interest. And we need to check to make sure that there isn’t a conflict of interest. And as long as that conflict of interest is not there, then we can do an additional investigation with organizations just generally speaking. Julie Roys 39:04 Lastly, and you’ve touched on analysis already. And this is something where I will say I’ve read a lot of these reports. GRACE’s analysis is usually something that I feel is insightful and is helpful. And because you guys get the culture and you get how abuse work, you get how cover ups work, you get all that stuff. I found those extremely helpful. At the same time, I have been horrified by some reports that I’ve seen. For example, there was a Guidepost Solutions report that was done on the Bryan Loritts’ investigation. I wrote about it so people can go and see it, but it was shocking to me because the only person that had this phone that had the evidence of wrongdoing was Bryan Loritts. He said things happened that he gave it to people. Nobody ever verified that they ever got the phone from him. He said he instructed people to report this to the police. We know that the police got no report whatsoever. And yet, the thing that was reported at the end of that was that Bryan Loritts essentially, has been found not guilty by this, you know. There’s no reason to think he was involved. It was shocking to me because the whole thing was pretty decent. I mean, really, they didn’t find out anything that I hadn’t found out prior, you know, because I had investigated this. But it was pretty decent as you went through. And if you understand the different people and what their objectives might be, and telling the truth or not telling the truth, but the analysis was just shocking to me. And there was so much inside of me that would have appreciated it, because when it was reported, people, you know, reporters can be really lazy. So they can just like look at the analysis at the end, and then just take that and not read the report. Because why bother, right? Just cut to the chase, read that, and then move on to your next story. And that’s what I suspect a lot of them did. And the problem is the truth didn’t get out there. So as a reporter, we keep like this really firm line between any analysis or opinion, and any news. So, we report all the facts here in the news story, we try not to let any editorial comment come in, and then we’ll report separately, okay, here’s what we think about it, if we do that. Or sometimes we’ll interview several experts, and then we’ll quote them in the story to give some perspective if we feel like the reader needs that. So, speak to that, because, again, I’ve seen it work. And I’ve seen it be absolutely abysmal, when there’s analysis in there, and there’s a part of me as a reporter that just wished the analysis would be separate, PETER SINGER 41:38 You bring up a really great point, Julie, and I’m not going to speak to any particular other organization that is out there doing investigation. But just off the top of my head, I can think of three or four reports that I’ve read within the last year where I look at them, and their findings of fact make sense to me. And I get done reading the findings of fact thinking, wow, this is great. They actually revealed what happened. And then I get to their analysis. And I’m like, how did they get that analysis? That analysis is totally contrary to the facts! What happened?** PETER SINGER 42:15 And so often, that can happen because that organization is being a mud flap, because their job is to direct the dirt. And again, I’m not calling out any specific organizations. And sometimes you’re just left wondering, and I think that you highlight just the importance, you can’t just go and read the analysis, you can’t just go and read the conclusions, you have to read the whole thing. And if you read the whole thing, you will see, A does not equal B. What’s going on here? And that is one of the red flags that you may have when you’re reading a report to know if that report was done in good faith. Because if you’re reading that nobody from whatever group participated or agreed to be interviewed, and then you’re reading the analysis that says this organization was fully engaged in the investigation, you got two opposite things. One is a factual statement but negates the analysis. With the GRACE report, generally speaking, there’s going to be some variability, we lay out those factual findings. There are some pieces of analysis in there. But those factual findings are laid out, and then we do an analysis. And sometimes there’s analysis that’s brought in with each piece of the findings so that there can be understanding as we go along. But that’s one of the key pieces that we do. And one of Robert’s biggest responsibilities is to make sure that this analysis actually is consistent with the factual findings. And not in contradiction to it. ROBERT PETERS 43:55 Yeah, adding to that getting the what right is inconsequential, if you screw up the so what,. And so, I think that’s one critique I would have just more broadly over even law firm involved investigations, if you don’t have the church culture piece, if you don’t have the scriptural piece, you’re gonna mess up the so what or at a minimum, you’re going to miss an opportunity to address the so what piece of it. It’s so interesting how often we’re moving from, you have entities that are theoretically sola scriptura, but not in this context. Theoretically, Scripture is sufficient for all things, but not here. And so why is the disconnect, right? Why are we not leaning on Scripture to guide our response? And I think there’s some reasons for that, that are not always always very pleasant. So, I think getting that so what use is critical. ** ROBERT PETERS 44:39 I don’t know, Julie, if you’re familiar with I’m sure you’re familiar with the name Victor Vieth. But he wrote a really influential article years ago called Unto the Third Generation, and he posits a very optimistic and I think still realistic and grounded view that child abuse really can be meaningfully reduced to levels that are fractions of what they are now. I think that’s absolutely the case, I think we can lose sight of that just in the work that we do. Right? You’re being exposed to all this stuff. And how does this you know; how does this stuff ever end.** ROBERT PETERS 45:11 One of the ways it ends is by not just getting a recitation of the facts. And then even if you don’t botch the analysis, stop there. The facts are important. The facts matter, they need light, and survivors deserve that. What also needs to happen is the so what. Okay, given these facts, what are the systems that allowed this to happen? As James Clear states, we don’t rise to the level of our goals, we fall to the level of our systems. What systemically is wrong here? And then by implication, how do we fix it? Because we don’t need to live in a world where every day, there’s a new, terrible podcast topic, probably several that you have to choose from. Right? We don’t have to live in a world where every day there’s more hearts being broken, and more individuals being shown an image of Christ and image of God does anything but what Scripture portrays. This is unnecessary. There is a way forward, and that way forward is the path of Christ. And it’s taking the facts seriously, yes. But it’s also doing the hard work of what do we do now, or the work of culture change. You don’t get there without the Bible. You don’t get there without being sensitive to survivors and being trauma informed. And that’s what survivors deserve in these investigations, regardless of who was conducting them. Julie Roys 46:22 So, so good. PETER SINGER 46:24 This is where the words of James come in: to the one who knows to do good, and doesn’t do it, it is sin. When you get done reading the report, there should be a path that’s laid out. Now you know, the path. And if you don’t do it, you are in essence taking God’s name in vain to continue sinning, to continue causing harm, to continue misrepresenting God. Julie Roys 46:52 Amen. So, so good. And I so appreciate what you guys do. I know that these podcasts even though we keep our news stories and our investigations, we have to as journalists, just report them straight as we can. But I’ve heard from so many people, it’s the podcast where this is our analysis piece, right? This is where we get to speak into these things. And they’ve been so so instructive to our listeners. I hear it all the time. We just had the RESTORE conference, and so many people came up to me and said, thank you so much for the podcast, because voices like yours get amplified, and they get to hear them and get to be able to process the information that they’re hearing. So, so grateful for both of you, Pete, and Robert and Christine, who was with us earlier,. Thank you so much for being a part of this podcast. PETER SINGER 47:42 Thank you for the opportunity. It was great. ROBERT PETERS 47:44 Thank you. Julie Roys 47:45 And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast, would you please consider supporting what we do financially? As I’ve said before, we don’t have any big donors or advertisers. We have you the people who care about exposing abuse and corruption in the church so she can be restored. And this month when you give a gift of $30 or more to the Roys report, we’ll send you a copy of Scot McKnight and Laura Behringer, his book pivot the priorities practices and powers that can transform your church into a Tov culture. So, to donate and to get your copy of pivot just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to the noise report on Apple podcast. Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you’ll never miss an episode. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Hope & Disillusionment: Recovering from Ravi Zacharias Scandal

Right-Side Up Leadership Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 8, 2023 40:35

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/kfW97erZjYA What do you do when the man you looked up to as your spiritual hero is exposed as a fraud? How do you recover from the disillusionment and betrayal? And how do you find hope when your world is turned upside down? On this edition of The Roys Report, you're about to hear a highlight session from this year's Restore Conference featuring Carson Weitnauer, a former director with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. Ravi Zacharias had a huge impact on Carson when he was coming of age. When Carson was hired by Ravi's ministry, he thought he had found his dream job. But then in 2020, the dream became a nightmare as more and more evidence showed that Ravi Zacharias was not the man he purported to be. He was not a model Christian leader and sterling apologist, but a serial sexual predator, who lied and manipulated to cover his tracks. The revelations rocked Carson's world—and especially his faith. And in this incredibly raw and vulnerable talk, Carson doesn't sugar-coat anything. He tells of his journey from believing the exposés about Ravi were just Satanic attacks—to realizing that his own leaders, people he looked up to, were lying to him. He tells of the excruciating betrayal, pain, and depression he experienced. He talks about almost losing his faith and feeling like God had abandoned him. But he also talks about hope and hanging on, even when life seems bleak. Guests Carson Weitnauer Carson Weitnauer is an author, speaker, and the founder of Uncommon Pursuit, a Christian apologetics ministry. He formerly served on-staff at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries and resigned to advocate for survivors. He has coauthored multiple books. Learn more at uncommonpursuit.net Show Transcript SPEAKERS CARSON WEITNAUER, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS 00:02 What do you do when the man you looked up to as your spiritual hero is exposed as a fraud? How do you recover from the disillusionment and betrayal? And how do you find hope when your world is turned upside down? Welcome to The Roys Report—a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And what you're about to hear is the second of 11 talks from this year's Restore Conference. Speaking is Carson Weitnauer, a former director with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. And as you'll hear, Ravi Zacharias had a huge impact on Carson when he coming of age—and internalizing his faith. So, in 2013, when Carson was hired by Ravi's ministry, he thought he had found his dream job. But then in 2020, the dream became a nightmare as more and more evidence showed that Ravi was not the man he purported to be. He was not a model Christian leader and sterling apologist, but a serial sexual predator, who lied and manipulated to cover his tracks. The revelations rocked Carson's world—and especially his faith. And in this incredibly raw and vulnerable talk, Carson doesn't sugar-coat anything. He tells of his journey from believing the exposés about Ravi were just Satanic attacks—to realizing that his own leaders, people he looked up to—were lying to him. He tells of the excruciating betrayal, pain, and depression he experienced. He talks about almost losing his faith—and feeling like God had abandoned him. But he also talks about hope and hanging on, even when life seems bleak. If you've ever experienced betrayal trauma or church hurt, I think you're going to resonate deeply with Carson's journey. Here's Carson Weitnauer, a former director with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries—and someone I've come to know as a man of integrity and courage. JULIE ROYS 04:02 Hi, I'm Julie Roys, founder of The Roys Report and the RESTORE conference, and you're about to see a video from RESTORE 2023. Though a lot of conferences charge for videos like these, we've decided to make them available for free. We've done that because we don't want anybody to miss out on this valuable content for lack of finances. But of course these do cost us money to shoot and to edit. So if you're able we'd really appreciate it if you consider donating to The Roys Report, so we can continue this important service. To do so just go to JulieRoys.com/donate. Also, I hope you'll make plans to join us at the next RESTORE conference which we'll be announcing soon. As great as these videos are they pale in comparison to being there in person. As one speaker commented, “this year RESTORE is more of a restorative community than it is a conference.” And every year that community just grows deeper and richer. And so I hope you'll be able to join us at the next RESTORE. Be watching for that. And in the meantime, I hope you're blessed and encouraged by this video. CARSON WEITNAUER 05:11 Julie Roys is a liar. It was September 21st, 2020, and I felt nauseous and disoriented. As I thought about all of the crazy things she was saying. I was at the beach with my family. We were trying to recover COVID. But it had been a hard year because Ravi Zacharias had died. He had very suddenly and unexpectedly passed away from cancer, and I don't cry, but in May at his funeral, I had wept that Ravi was no longer with us. And I was angry that God had taken him so soon. The Vice President (Mike Pence) was there. He said, “In Ravi Zacharias, God gave us the greatest Christian apologist of the century. He was the CS Lewis of our day.” And tributes in that spirit poured in from all around the world. Christian media, social media was flooded with praise for Ravi Zacharias. And our ministry was trying to figure out what we would do without our founder our inspiration or leader or guide. But at the beach a few months later, I felt tense and tight. And I was trying to get my bearings because I was scrolling on my phone through these articles Julie had written. Julie claimed to be an investigative journalist. But responsible leaders at RCIM had explained the truth. She was a clickbait journalist. She would dig up dirt on people so she could get her 15 minutes of fame by, you know, scandal mongering. And now she was stooping to a new low in the aftermath of Ravi's funeral. She was claiming that Ravi Zacharias had taken advantage of Lori Anne Thompson. 07:49 And Julie had documented a lot of facts about the situation I had never heard. So I read her articles. And I tried to do a critical reading of them, I tried to ignore all of her negative biased commentary. I just wanted to pay attention to the facts that she had primary documentation for. And every evening, after I got my kids to bed, I would open up my computer and open up a Google spreadsheet, and I would put everything that Ravi and RZIM had told me in one column, and I would put everything that Julie was documenting in another column. And I got 287 rows of discrepancies. And I just kept comparing Julie's articles with everything I had learned for three years since 2017 and 2018. I'd scoured the internet for information for three years to get information on Lori Anne Thompson. I had talked to many of RZIM's leaders, I debated what was being claimed with my colleagues. For every good point that was raised, RZIM's leaders had a good answer.Lori Anne had schemed with some friends to leak emails to embarrass Ravi. And they made it look like Ravi had done something really wrong. But our leaders had the whole context of the entire email chain. And they explained that the whole chain of emails had been selectively and manipulatively distorted and taken out of context to make Ravi look guilty when he wasn't. 09:30 Ravi and a senior leader who were both Easterners explained how they read these emails from an Eastern point of view. And they said if you think Ravi is guilty of something, that's because you're reading this as a Westerner. We had earnestly prayed for God to protect our ministry in this time from satanic attacks. And it felt like God had put a veil of protection, a dome of protection over our headquarters, and our ministry and our events. And these satanic attacks had been thwarted by the power of prayer. And it hadn't been my job to investigate these claims. But there were people of outstanding integrity and leadership, Christian leaders of major organizations. And it was their job to look into this. And so there were two independent external investigations. Ravi's denomination was a highly respected denomination. And when claims like this came up, they did a proper investigation to ensure that none of their pastors did anything like this. And they had found that Ravi was innocent. 10:44 Ravi's publisher would not publish a book by an author who did this kind of thing. They wanted all of their authors to not only have good teaching but good lives. The publisher had a responsibility to investigate. They investigated, they found that Ravi was innocent. RZIM was a multimillion nearly $40 million a year organization, in the 30s of millions, and our board was comprised of extremely qualified Christian leaders. And when a claim like this came up, the board had a responsibility. They investigated. Our senior leaders were best selling authors and powerful speakers and well educated. They had a responsibility. So our speakers our senior leaders had investigated. So I was looking at four separate investigations by Ravi's denomination, his publisher, his board, and the senior leaders. And all four investigations concluded that Ravi was innocent, and that Lori Anne and her scheming husband had tried to extort Ravi out of $5 million dollars. It was a blackmail attempt. 12:03 So what made more sense? A self promoting journalist, desperate for clicks and attention was passing on lies because she always believed survivors? Or multiple investigations by the most trustworthy people had gotten it wrong? And so I wavered. 12:25 I had first met Ravi, when I was in high school. I was struggling with my Christian faith, do I believe this or not? And I'd read Ravi's book can man live without God, and it really helped me. And so there were some connections, and I got to go to a dinner around Christmas time where Ravi was speaking. And afterwards, it was arranged for me and Ravi to talk with each other. And I could not believe it. Ravi spoke to world leaders. And now he was going to talk to me. And he explained, keep in touch Carson, I'd like to keep in touch with you. So on the way home, I told my mom, I would love to work for Ravi Zacharias one day. 13:03 I studied at Rhodes College in Memphis, studying philosophy. And so I asked Ravi, I wrote him a letter and asked him to give me some advice on my future career. I studied abroad at St. Catherine's college at Oxford. And while I was there, I visited the RZIM offices. It was a chance to meet the people that Ravi had hired and trained and spoke with. I then went into campus ministry for 10 years, seven of those years, I had the joy of serving students at Harvard College. We faced difficult intellectual and cultural questions. And so we often went and said, What is Ravi say about this? What resources does RZIM have to help us navigate this conversation with gentleness with respect, with biblical fidelity with intellectual clarity? So in 2013, when I was hired to work for Ravi Zacharias, it was a dream job. I felt like God had orchestrated all the details of my life and worked it out for me to work for Ravi. During the seven years that I worked there, I got to start with the US speaking team, leading them. And then I transitioned to starting and growing an online community called RZIM Connect. And we had hundreds of thousands of people visit this community and learn how to have good conversations about faith and get answers to their questions. I had respected Ravi and RZIM for over 20 years. I'd worked at RZIM for seven and RZIM was not just a job, it was a joy. It was my identity, my community, my sense of purpose, my faith, my spirituality. So I was a real mess on the beach. And then came to more bombshells. 14:58 Both Christianity Today and World Magazine reported that massage therapists who worked at Ravi's spa alleged that Ravi was guilty of awful, horrendous sexual misconduct. And as I read those articles, my heart sank as I thought about what those women had endured. World Magazine also reported that the tax documents Julie had were accurate and that the Thompson's had given away nearly $200,000 one year to different Christian charities. And so I just asked myself, “Are the Thompsons greedy extortionists or exceptionally generous Christians?” “Are all of the journalists self promotional hacks, or courageous truth tellers?” And I was reluctantly but totally convinced. And I felt that I had a responsibility to take action. Because for years, I had shut down people who thought Lori Anne Thompson was telling the truth. And I had defended Ravi. And now I needed to speak up for his victims. And I had been helped by RZIM so much, I had to do whatever I could to help the ministry do what was right. 16:16 And I just trusted that Ravi Zacharias International Ministries was nothing like Ravi Zacharias. I mean, he was a fraud. He was abusive, a bully a liar. But my friends, my mentors, the people I worked with day in and day out, we'd been on road trips together, we'd done ministry together, these people were solid, they were people of integrity, I could count on them to be truth finders and truth tellers and advocates for the vulnerable. So it was October 1st, 2020. And RZIM's board had already put out two statements, fake news, these are false. We've already looked into it, nothing to this. And they also said truth is the foundation of what we do. And I had to ask myself, is truth, the foundation of what we do? Are you just saying that so people will believe what you're saying? 17:20 And then we had a global town hall meeting because the ministry launched a investigation and they knew staff had questions. And one of the ideas on official motto was no questions off limits. And so I had a few questions. And I wanted to know if we have this investigation going on, but Lori Anne and her family are subjected to a nondisclosure agreement, how can the investigation include them? They can't disclose. And the family wasn't willing to release them from that. So would RZIM provide cover to the Thompsons were they to violate this agreement? If there was financial penalties or legal costs, couldn't we make sure that they could participate? And the response was wonderful. It sounded very gentle and respectful. “We're totally committed to the truth here. We want them to participate. The NDA won't be a problem. We're definitely going to include them in this investigation.” It sounded awesome. And then I thought about it. And they hadn't made any concrete promises of unwinding the NDA or providing a legal defense for the Thompson. So they were just empty promises. And then the hammer fell. There was a private follow-up conversation with our general counsel. And he explained that I had been out of line and inappropriate and should not have asked those questions. And I still have flashbacks to that conversation. And I will freeze up and just feel feel so helpless. And then I will remember that I don't have to be afraid of him anymore. And I will take a deep breath and relax my muscles. And I will try and go back into my day. One day out of nowhere, the Chief Financial Officer sent me and my line manager an email. I guess she'd gotten wind of what I was doing, talking to staff about the situation, advocating for the women. And she wrote to me, “while I agree that we should remain transparent with the truth, I don't think repeating potential lies, or passing on judgment, or qualities we want to embody at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, Carson.” She said she value transparency and truth. But her threat was not idle. Staff had been fired for asking questions that fall. I had thought Julie was a liar. And now one of RZIM's senior leaders was saying that maybe I was a liar too. Throughout the fall of 2020, I heard many heartbreaking stories of my friends being bullied. 20:19 At one point, the human resources director sent out an email saying, “We want to make sure there's someone to receive staff complaints. So we've appointed an ombudsperson.” And that sounded awesome! There's going to be an ombudsperson to advocate for staff. And I was shocked to see the name. The new ombudsperson had a nickname:The Enforcer. She had a track record of bullying staff. So I wrote to the HR director and said, “This person has a track record of bullying staff. You can't have her be the ombudsperson.” And they ignored my email. The ombudsperson stayed in her role. And I had to ask myself, why did they want a bully to receive complaints of bullying? If they cared about staff mistreatment, why did they appoint the Enforcer to this role? 21:09 And as information began to circulate around the ministry, I started to learn about some pretty big lies. Ravi had always said that for that nondisclosure agreement, no money changed hands. But in 2017, our senior leaders had read an email where they had learned that Ravi Zacharias had paid $250,000 for that NDA. And so for years they had known Ravi was lying. And they never corrected the record about a $250,000 payment. And the four investigations I had trusted, they consisted of asking Ravi if he did it, taking him at his word when he said he didn't, and closing the investigation. 21:58 RZIM's president asked us not to publicly comment on the investigation because they were so committed to the integrity of it and to finding the truth, they didn't want anyone to comment about it, so it could run its course. But then, at the end of October, there was a major fundraising weekend called Founders. They would raise millions of dollars in one weekend. And all of the people speaking there, they basically said, “Ravi is a hero, and we want you to make a major gift this year in honor of his legacy.” In November, there was a global apologetics conference. Pastors and churches were trusting us to help them with the big questions of the day. And to a global audience, our speakers share their favorite memories of Ravi and how Ravi had mentored them. They encourage participants to imitate Ravi's example. And I realized that our President's request for silence wasn't about the integrity of the investigation. It was about silencing anyone who believed that Ravi had abused women. It was about protecting Ravi's reputation. And his reputation and our ministry's reputation. 23:03 I had gone to prayer meetings four days a week, and the weekly chapel one day a week, for years. And at the prayer meetings, there were again prayers for God to protect our ministry from the satanic attacks. And I realized now that they were praying against me and what I was doing. And that really complicated my prayer life. By December, I was so discouraged and worn out and wrung out and exhausted. I talked to anyone I could about this issue and been pretty discouraged. When I showed up to our staff Christmas party, I was hoping, look, this is a classic, we laugh, we have fun, the spirit of Christmas. This could be a good moment of connection and recovery. And then came the Christmas Devotional. It came from our chief cultural officer who was a board member. It was Ravi's widow. There's a verse in the Bible that says, the apostle Paul says, “Follow me as I follow Christ.” And her Christmas Devotional was, “Everyone here, follow Ravi's example, the way he followed Christ.” And it was a home run. People liked the message. They thought it was a great Christmas Devotional. And at that point, I knew RZIM was not interested in finding the truth. And they weren't interested in the victims. They didn't believe there were victims. It was about loyalty to Ravi over everything else. And I felt that darkness was closing in around me and I ran out of hope. 24:42 RZIM said they valued truth, and they kept telling lies. They said they valued respect, but they bullied us. They said they valued integrity, and they acted hypocritically. They use the name of Jesus to get money, and they didn't use the money to follow Jesus. In September of 2020, I lost my confidence in Ravi. By December of 2020, I lost my confidence in RZIM. And in January of 2021, I resigned. And I had to wonder if I would lose my confidence in God. 24:42 I was a wreck. I was unemployed. I didn't feel good. I found my family finances changed. I was directionless. What do I do with my life now? I was isolated. I lost all my friends from work pretty much. I was disillusioned. My childhood hero was a liar and a bully and a sexual predator. I was recovering. I was trying to find words to explain all the pain I was feeling. I was trying to understand what spiritual abuse was, how to respond to bullying. I didn't know how to describe what I was experiencing. I was frustrated and angry. I poured my heart into this online community and it had to be shut down and then deleted. All gone. I was ashamed that I'd given seven years of my life to this ministry that would be always associated with scandal. 26:26 And I was so confused. Why would God bring me to work for a sexual predator and a corrupt ministry? I felt so rejected. And hopeless. I just felt like my whole body was covered in pain. One of my first attempts to recover didn't go very well. I went on a retreat by myself. I got an Airbnb in the Great Smoky Mountains. It was beautiful. You know, since childhood my my Bible had been a source of life. But for three months it had been poisoned. And so I didn't really want to read the Bible. And I'd usually loved praying to God. It just felt like dust in my mouth. I had graduated from seminary, but I had never had any training for this. I finally just opened up this journal I brought. And as I started to write, I wrote these incredibly bloody and raw and angry, just super intense prayers to God. Like some pages were just one word of anger at God. And I felt so troubled by what I had said to God, I threw the journal away. 28:01 Slowly, over time, I started to find a few things that helped. After I would drop off my kids at school, I would go to the gym. And instead of feeling weak, I would start to feel strong. And then I would go to the dry sauna. I would just sit in there as long as I could. And it just felt like the heat was taking all the pain out of my body. That's a really good time. I kept talking with a counselor, and he helped give me language helped me express my emotions and start to understand what had happened. I shared my story with friends at church,. And I told them the same story 100 times and they listened and listened and listened and listened and listened to me. I got to know Lori Anne Thompson. I found she was a source of healing in my life. That she would be my friend and forgive me and give me wisdom and care to help me find my way forward. Ruth Malhotra is here. And she has been a steadfast friend and has helped me navigate so many complex things about this. My mom is here for this talk. And she's been amazing. I leaned on my wife for support. I could not in any way have made the decisions I had made, except that she decided to be completely there for me. And it's been years of her, offering me unconditional love and support as I figured things out again. 29:40 I had to rethink all of my beliefs. I read books on theology and church history trying to evaluate if this still made sense to me. And I got really, really honest with God. And I stopped having any pious prayers. It was unfiltered, direct expression of how I felt with God, exactly how I felt about him. I told him, what was on my heart. And even though I was yelling at God, I continued to sense that God was with me, and that God loved me. And I started to pray the Psalms, and I would tweak them as needed. And it was amazing to me that the Psalms were so visceral and real. They blame God for a lot of things. And God heard those prayers and said, I'm going to put these in my Bible. So people can pray them for the rest of time. And I realized that Jesus and the prophets had already spoken the words I needed to say to the leaders at RZIM. And to Ravi Zacharias. I had tested Ravi. He was a disappointment. I had tested RZIM. They were a disappointment. And then I tested God with my very worst. And I found that he could handle it. 31:16 One thing I didn't know is that the road to recovery goes up and down a lot. Sometimes you cannot make progress. Sometimes you don't know if you are making progress. Sometimes you thought you have made progress and you have not–you have regressed. At one point in the spring of 2021 My family went back to the beach for another chance to recover. And I got an email from RZIM saying they wanted to give me severance, which sounded like a real moment of repentance and hope. But I read the separation agreement and my heart sank. It was a nondisclosure agreement. I sent it to four lawyers to make sure I understood this correctly. All four said that's a nondisclosure agreement. 32:05 Boz Tchividjian helped me fight it. And for two months, we were dealing with RZIM's corporate attorney. I lost sleep. And I felt stressed out. And I could hardly think straight, that an organization with millions of dollars in the bank was trying to take the one thing I had left: my voice. 32:28 And if you think that's an unfair characterization, consider that RZIM has never done anything to help Lori Anne Thompson with her NDA. To this day. It's embarrassing. And I got hit from other angles that really confused me and threw me for a loop. I reached out to my whole network and people reached out to me. Mentors, respected Christian leaders, people who wrote books and talked about integrity and Christian leadership. And they had heard my heart ache. They had cared for me. They had prayed with me. They had told me they hoped I would get better. They were there for me. And then they endorsed the books of RZIM's leaders. They did events with RZIM's leaders. And I couldn't understand why they would help relaunch the ministry of people who had bullied me. I reached out I said, “Can I update you? They have not done anything to get right with me or a lot of other people. They don't have the Christian character and integrity you're always saying is so essential.” They said, “Why haven't you forgiven them?” 33:45 Some of them just refused to talk to me. They just never responded to the message. And again and again, I realized that for many Christian leaders, accountability is for anyone who gets in my way. It's never for my friend who's done something wrong. 34:09 And I didn't know that I would have flashbacks. I thought the past was the past. I didn't know that I would be at my desk trying to do work and be unable to do anything for hours because I couldn't stop thinking about a conversation I'd had with someone at RZIM. I didn't know it would keep taking days of my life. 34:29 I would log into Facebook. And Facebook would be like, here's a happy memory of you and Ravi Zacharias. I would hear a new story about RZIM's corruption. And there are so many stories that are not public. So up and down, up and down, up and down. There were times I was in so much pain, I didn't know if I would ever get better. I didn't know if it was possible to get better. I could not see a light at the end of my tunnel. And then I wouldn't get a little bit better. But something would happen. And I would go back down into that pain again. So then, when I was better, I didn't know if I would stay better. It felt so fragile. How long does this last for? When will something catch me off guard and knock me back down into the pit. 35:34 And if you feel like there is no light at the end of your tunnel, and if you wonder if you will never get better, I just wanted to say, I hear you. And then it's okay to not be okay. That was one of the main things I just kept saying to myself, it is okay, in light of what I've been through, to not be okay. 36:03 And over time, I had to accept that Ravi and RZIM had damaged me. And for a long time, I just denied that and resisted that and hated that. It felt so unfair and wrong, that they had changed who I was. And I didn't like what they had done to me. And the kind of person that they had shaped me to be through their hurt. And I felt so helpless. I mean, how do you change the past? How do you undo all the horrible things they did? You can't. I didn't know what to do with that. I didn't want to face that reality. 36:50 But at some point, I gained the strength to choose who I want it to be. I will never justify what happened. I'll never spiritualize it. All of the lies and bullying and spiritual abuse were totally wrong. But that doesn't mean I can't choose a better future for myself. 37:13 So I'm now awakened to the pain of survivors. I'm excited about that. That's a good thing God's done in me. When I see evangelical corruption, I'm not afraid to challenge it. Sometimes people say to me, Carson, are you worried that if you keep calling out all of these big name leaders for corruption is going to limit your future. And I say if it limits my future, that's not a future I want to be a part of. 37:51 I once thought Julie was a liar. And now I can call her a friend. I hit rock bottom. I might go there again sometime in the future. But I'm here today sharing with you a story of hope. I enrolled in the Doctorate of ministry programs so I can learn how to build a healthy Christian culture. Some Christian leaders decided to investigate what happened. And they published a report holding RZIM's leaders accountable. It's sad how many ignore their report. But it's great that they did that. 38:30 My former line manager at RCM reached out to make amends and over and over again, he made really sacrificial choices for my benefit. And that rebuild trust that he kept doing sacrificial things to repair our relationship. I started Uncommon Pursuit. And we're creating resources to help people grow in their Christian faith. And I read the Bible with more sensitivity to God's heart for many years, thanks to some good mentors, I had always had known for many years that God cares about the vulnerable. The orphan, the widow, the immigrant and the poor. God hates injustice. God hates racism. God hates sexism. God hates all forms of oppression. But it had shifted from being something that I could do exegetically to something I felt in my gut as I turned the pages of Scripture. 39:34 And I have developed a way more honest relationship with God. I don't pray pious prayers anymore. What I feel that's what I tell God about. And I know he can handle it. When the truth becomes a lie, when a good reputation is used to lure people in and abuse them, when the minister turns out to be a monster, it's okay not be okay. 40:05 I am not here today with any answers or advice. All I have is the story of how God has been able to handle all of my pain and helped me to start to heal. And how with God's help, this pain has helped me to choose a better version of myself. I am convinced that if we can maintain the courage to be honest with God, and with each other, about all of our reasonable and righteous disillusionment, that we will also find our way to hope. Thank you guys for the chance to share with you today. JULIE ROYS: 41:02 Well again, that was Carson Weitnauer, speaking at Restore 2023. And what a very special and moving talk that was. And I hope if you're in a place of disillusionment or discouragement today, that this talk encouraged you. Next week, we'll be releasing a fitting sequel to Carson's talk. That's a talk by Lori Anne Thompson on trauma recovery and empowerment. And this was the most raw and real talk I think I've ever heard. My husband cried during this talk. And he's a math teacher, so he's not really given to shows of emotion. But wow, Lori's talk is just so powerful—and helpful for anyone who's experienced severe trauma. So, you'll definitely want to be watching for that. Also, I want to mention that the videos of these talks are all available at my YouTube channel. A lot of conferences charge for their videos. But we've decided to make ours available for free because we don't want anyone to miss out on this valuable content because of lack of finances. But as you can imagine, these videos do cost us to shoot and edit. So, if you appreciate this content and you're able to pitch in, would you please donate to The Roys Report so we can continue this important service? To do so, just go to JulieRoys.com/Donate. And when you give a gift of $30 or more this month, we'll send you a copy of Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer's latest book: Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers that Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture. So again, just go to JulieRoys.comDonate. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you'll never miss an episode! And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then, please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today! Hope you were blessed and encouraged! Read more

What Should Happen When Christian Leaders Fall? | Bible Study

Into the Pray

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 12, 2023 20:14

Dear AllThank you for listening to Into the Pray — our little offering of sanity amidst the ramping chaos of the Church and the anti-Christ world.Wasn't Ravi Enough? is the title of one of the chapters in my latest book that you can see here. The question as to whether or not the scale and shock of the RZIM scandal was sufficient to rouse the Church from comatose is rhetorical; of course it wasn't. Neither was COVID-19, church closures and the emergence of totalitarian governments. Nevertheless, if we are going to take Jesus' return seriously, the question remains: what should happen when Christian leaders fall?The YouTube version of this podcast here. You can support us here.Title music can be listened to here. Back in the spring of this I year, I published the seminal work, "The Glorious Few: Redeeming Radicalisation in the Kingdom of God." In the period of 2 weeks following publishing, several major things happened all at once that could have happened at any point in the previous 9 years. The disruption of the Lord culminated in Mairi resigning from her role as a Teacher of French in a large secondary school in Edinburgh and was a disruption that I wrote about prophetically in the book's epilogue. This podcast is now Mairi's testimony and, as the final podcast in our home where the podcast began, please let me encourage you to listen with a prayerful heart. Perhaps you'd also share the episode to your networks. Finally, what would Nick sat to your local church and leadership? The 1% Church. Maranatha!My books are available here with info about the latest, The Glorious Few, here. Order our new gospel tract for your parish here. You can watch my "whistle-stop" response to the horrible situation with Hillsong here.Our flagship content:

Episode 162: "Awaken A Better You" with BJ Thompson

Linch With A Leader

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 20, 2023 41:32

Is there a change you've been wanting to make, but you don't know how? Have you tried it all and still can't figure out how to move forward? Mike welcomes author and life coach BJ Thompson to the Linch with a Leader podcast to dive into what prevents so many of us from not only making the changes we want to make, but making them stick.BJ is a life coach, speaker, and author who helped launch one of the largest faith movements in recent history – the “116 Movement” with Grammy award winning artist Lecrae. He also served alongside Bryan Loritts to expand groundbreaking racial reconciliation work in Memphis, TN. BJ has worked with tens of thousands of individuals and couples all over the world helping them experience personal and relational growth. Currently BJ serves as the executive director for Build a Better Us. He has a bachelor's degree in sociology from the University of North Texas and a master's degree in Christian studies from Union University. He has been featured in Relevant Magazine, Propel, Christianity Today, Barna, & other publications. He has also worked with History Chanel, RZIM, ERLC, Desiring God, Universities & other corporations. He and his wife Vanja have been married 16 years and live in Atlanta with their three children.

Episode 162: "Awaken A Better You" with BJ Thompson

Linch With A Leader

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 20, 2023 41:32

343 - B.J. Thompson ”Awaken a Better You”

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 26, 2023 26:24

On today's episode, Alan interviews speaker, author, and coach, B.J Thompson. The two discuss B.J's new book "Awaken a Better You" and 4 practical steps anyone can take for lasting change within their life and leadership. About B.J. BJ is a life coach, speaker, and author who helped launch one of the largest faith movements in recent history – the “116 Movement” with Grammy award winning artist Lecrae. He also served alongside Bryan Loritts to expand groundbreaking racial reconciliation work in Memphis, TN. BJ has worked with tens of thousands of individuals and couples all over the world helping them experience personal and relational growth. Currently BJ serves as the executive director for Build a Better Us. He has a bachelor's degree in sociology from the University of North Texas and a master's degree in Christian studies from Union University. He has been featured in Relevant Magazine, Propel, Christianity Today, Barna, & other publications. He has also worked with History Chanel, RZIM, ERLC, Desiring God, Universities & other corporations. He and his wife Vanja have been married 16 years and live in Atlanta with their three children. Connect with B.J. Book Website From Stay Forth Download this free tool: www.weeklyplanninggrid.com

EP104: 4 Simple Steps To A Healthier, Happier You

imPERFECTly emPOWERed

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 10, 2023 52:52

Cut through the clutter of life with author and life coach BJ Thompson in this episode about the principles that'll help you experience authentic transformation so you can learn where your true worth lies.IN THIS EPISODE YOU WILL LEARN:Eye-opening realizations about diversity Steps to promoting diversity within your own familyHow to become a self-actualized individual for yourself and othersThe role of desperation in changing your lifeImportance of getting and applying the right informationRESOURCES/LINKS MENTIONED:Awaken A Better You by BJ Thompson: https://bit.ly/3VMp25rLecrae: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxuwb_eErNh6okiCGhIf7wwMy 600-lb Life: https://www.tlc.com/shows/my-600-lb-lifeWizard of Oz: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032138/ABOUT: BJ THOMPSONBJ is a life coach, speaker, and author who helped launch one of the most significant faith movements in recent history – the “116 Movement” with Grammy award-winning artist Lecrae. He also served alongside Bryan Loritts to expand groundbreaking racial reconciliation work in Memphis, TN. He has worked with thousands of individuals and couples worldwide, helping them experience personal and relational growth. Currently, BJ serves as the executive director for Build a Better Us. He has been featured in Relevant Magazine, Propel, Christianity Today, Barna, and other publications. He has also worked with History Chanel, RZIM, ERLC, Desiring God, universities, and other corporations. He and his wife, Vanja, have been married for 16 years and live in Atlanta with their three children.CONNECT WITH: BJWebsite: Build A Better Us: http://www.buildabetterus.com45-Day Transformation Challenge With BJ: www.45days.coInstagram: @bjthompson116: https://www.instagram.com/bjthompson116/CONNECT WITH US:Website: http://www.hammersnhugs.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/AhnaFulmerHammersNHugsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/ahnafulmer/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hammersnhugsContact The Show!Website: https://hammersnhugs.com/imperfectly-empowered-podcast/Email: ahna@hammersnhugs.com*NEW* IG: https://www.instagram.com/ahnafulmer

Episode 3 - DARVO and Social Media Backlash

DJStrickland Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 19, 2022 61:38

Guest- Lori Anne ThompsonLori Anne Thompson is Survivor. Storyteller. Student. She holds a BSCH Kinesiology from Queens University and a MA in Child Advocacy and Policy from Montclair State University. Her bravery in exposing the abuse of Ravi Zacharias is considered to be one of the catalysts for the #churchtoo movementLori's web-site - https://loriannethompson.com/Lori's victim impact statement - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyl6jzg5ldcAfter initially siding with RZIM, Christianity Today issued several lengthy articles detailing the abuse of Ravi Zacharias- https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/february/ravi-zacharias-rzim-investigation-sexual-abuse-sexting-rape.htmlThe Church of England's report on abuse within the church highlights the frequency with which we blame the victim https://www.churchofengland.org/safeguarding/past-cases-review-2 (page 102)

social media england student survivors policy storytellers backlash christianity today ravi zacharias queens university montclair state university rzim darvo child advocacy

Air Force Fellowship for "Gender Minorities," Museum of the Bible Returns Stolen Manuscript, RZIM VP Shares Regrets

The Christian Post Daily

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 3, 2022 8:08

House Republicans are urging the Justice Department to investigate cyberattacks on pro-life websites as the national discourse surrounding the issue of abortion grows increasingly heated following the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling determiningthat the U.S. Constitution does not contain a right to abortion.Leaders from the Museum of the Bible in Washington, D.C. traveled to Greece this week to formally return a handwritten, 1,000-year-old, handwritten Gospel manuscript looted by Bulgarian troops in 1917.The nation's largest Catholic civil rights organization is criticizing the United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) for what it calls a “problematic” fellowship offered only to students who belong to a “gender minority.”A former executive for Ravi Zacharias International Ministries recently shared in a live panel discussion that she regrets not "pushing harder" when sexual abuse allegations against the late apologist Ravi Zacharias first emerged.Subscribe to this Podcast Apple Podcasts Spotify Google Podcasts Overcast Get the Edifi App Download for iPhone Download for Android Subscribe to Our Newsletter Subscribe to the Freedom Post, delivered every Monday and Thursday Click here to get the top headlines delivered to your inbox every morning! Links to the News Republicans urge DOJ to investigate hacking of pro-life websites | Politics News Senators question FBI's arrest of Catholic pro-life activist | Politics News Orthodox Church celebrates return of stolen manuscript to Greece | Church & Ministries News Catholic League slams Air Force for gender ideology ‘fiction' | U.S. News RZIM VP regrets not 'pushing harder' amid Ravi Zacharias scandal | Church & Ministries News Jamie Grace recounts being told she's ‘not black enough' | Entertainment News

Church abuse, leadership scandals & RZIM: Rachael Denhollander, Amy Orr-Ewing, Mike Cosper & Diane Langberg

Unbelievable?

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 23, 2022 95:31

Justin Brierley was joined by four guests and hundreds of attendees for a live webinar event 'Falling From Grace: Addressing power, leadership and abuse in the church'. Panellists: Abuse survivor and advocate Rachael Denhollander; author, theologian and former RZIM vice-president Amy Orr-Ewing; Rise And Fall Of Mars Hill Podcast presenter Mike Cosper; and trauma and abuse specialist Diane Langberg. Justin Humphreys of the leading independent Christian safeguarding charity Thirtyone:eight also joins the conversation. For the resources from Thirtyone:eight: https://thirtyoneeight.org/unbelievable Rachael Denhollander: https://rachaeldenhollander.com/ Amy Orr-Ewing: https://www.amyorr-ewing.com/ Mike Cosper: https://mikecosper.net/podcasts/rise-and-fall Diane Langberg: https://www.dianelangberg.com/ • Subscribe to the Unbelievable? podcast: https://pod.link/267142101 • More shows, free eBook & newsletter: https://premierunbelievable.com • For live events: http://www.unbelievable.live • For online learning: https://www.premierunbelievable.com/training-and-events • Support us in the USA: http://www.premierinsight.org/unbelievableshow • Support us in the rest of the world: https://www.premierunbelievable.com/donate

united states leadership scandals ebooks unbelievable thirty one rzim justin brierley church abuse mike cosper rachael denhollander diane langberg amy orr ewing

S2E40 - "Deconstruction" with Alycia Wood

#OneFear

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 12, 2022 72:56

This week we have a very, very special guest on the pod, our good friend Alycia Wood to talk about deconstruction and a little bit about apologetics. As a child growing up in the church, Alycia always had questions. She wanted to dig deeper into the Christian faith beyond the Sunday morning sermon. That fueled an independent search digging into the bigger questions of life. While studying for a degree in criminal justice and sociology at Robert Wesleyan College, Alycia discovered apologetics, and it changed the course of her life. Her quest for a deeper understanding of Christianity had a name. She went on to get her master's in social justice from Marygrove College to further her passion for serving those in need in the developing world. This led to various volunteering opportunities at orphanages, prisons, and shelters for the homeless in several countries including Haiti, Honduras, Jamaica, and the Dominican Republic. Alycia was a substitute teacher and paraprofessional for multiple grade levels and spent eight years doing apologetics ministry at RZIM before joining Lighten. In her spare time, she is an avid sports fan, musician, and grower of all things edible in her garden. Alycia's FB/Twitter handle @AlyciaWood88 For more information on #OneFear: Connect with us on Instagram here —> https://www.instagram.com/onefear3/ Find our Facebook Page here —> https://www.facebook.com/OneFear-109998298125313 Facebook group here —> http://www.facebook.com/groups/348890192873672 For questions, comments, (concerns), email us at contact@onefear.net Visit our website, onefear.net for more information about #OneFear and to learn about what else we do! --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/onefear5/message

christianity haiti jamaica dominican republic honduras deconstruction lighten alycia rzim marygrove college alycia wood

Ep. 209: Ted Haggard, American Bible Society, and Ravi Zacharias

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 9, 2022 23:58

On today's program, one of evangelicalism's most prominent leaders, Ted Haggard, his hit new lows. We'll have the latest. And the American Bible Society latest president lasted less than 90 days. The organization has had five presidents in the past 10 years. We've got news of the latest changes at this two-century old ministry. We begin today with the latest chapter in the story of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. Last week, Lighten Group, announced it was shutting down. Lighten Group is a new ministry started by Sarah Davis, former CEO of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) and daughter of late Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias. Lighten Group, whose team is comprised of former RZIM employees, was founded in the fall of 2021 and was supported by RZIM funding. It is not clear what has happened to the millions of dollars in assets owned by RZIM when the organization imploded in the aftermath of a sex abuse scandal. Before we go, a reminder: if you made a donation to MinistryWatch during the month of September, we'll send you a copy of my book “Restoring All Things.” It's a book that I co-wrote with The Colson Center's John Stonestreet. Just go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the DONATE button at the top of the page. The producers for today's program are Rich Roszel and Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Cathy Goddard, Stephen DuBarry, Emily Kern, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Emily Miller, Todd Nettleton, Anne Stych, Audrey Jackson, Alejandra Molina, Bob Smietana, Jesse T. Jackson, Jessica Etturalde, and Steve Rabey. Special thanks to The Christian Chronicle and ChurchLeaders.com for contributing material for this week's podcast. Until next time, may God bless you.

god ceo writers church leaders ravi zacharias rzim american bible society emily miller colson center sarah davis john stonestreet ravi zacharias international ministries todd nettleton ted haggard bob smietana restoring all things ministrywatch alejandra molina

Ep. 209: Ted Haggard, American Bible Society, and Ravi Zacharias

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 9, 2022 23:58

Ep. 189: Donors Sue RZIM, SBC's Sex Abuse Report, A Dramatic Confrontation Goes Viral

Play Episode Listen Later May 27, 2022 24:12

A judge has decided that a lawsuit filed by donors to Ravi Zacharias International Ministries can continue. It the donors succeed in getting their money back, could set a landmark precedent. We'll also look at the story of a sexual abuse victim confronting his alleged accuser – during the Sunday service. A video of the event has gone viral. We begin today with the biggest religion story of the week, and one that will likely be among the biggest of the year. That story is the release, by the Southern Baptist Convention, of a nearly 300-page report on sexual abuse in the denomination. We'll look at this story from multiple angles today. Our fiscal year ends on June 30, a little more than a month from now. So if you would like to help us get back on track and finish the year strong, just go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the donate button at the top of the page. And now, you can now give via text. If this is your preferred way of giving, just text @ministrywatch to 52014. Again, that's @ministrywatch to 52014. If you have a story you'd like us to cover, or a ministry that you think needs a closer look, please email us. Our email is info@ministrywatch.com. That will come directly to my desk, and we'll take it from there. Also, a reminder that you can help the program by leaving us a rating on your podcast app. The more ratings we get, the easier it is for others to find us. It's a quick, easy, and free way you can support MinistryWatch. The producers for today's program are Rich Roszel and Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Cathy Goddard, Stephen DuBarry, Emily Kern, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Anne Stych, Donald Kramer, Kim Roberts, Adelle M. Banks, Yonat Shimron, Bob Smietana, Rod Pitzer and Christina Darnell. Until next time, may God bless you.

god viral writers dramatic confrontation donors southern baptist convention sex abuse rzim ravi zacharias international ministries kim roberts bob smietana ministrywatch adelle m banks

Ep. 189: Donors Sue RZIM, SBC's Sex Abuse Report, A Dramatic Confrontation Goes Viral

Play Episode Listen Later May 27, 2022 24:12

A judge has decided that a lawsuit filed by donors to Ravi Zacharias International Ministries can continue. It the donors succeed in getting their money back, could set a landmark precedent. We'll also look at the story of a sexual abuse victim confronting his alleged accuser – during the Sunday service. A video of the event has gone viral. We begin today with the biggest religion story of the week, and one that will likely be among the biggest of the year. That story is the release, by the Southern Baptist Convention, of a nearly 300-page report on sexual abuse in the denomination. We'll look at this story from multiple angles today. Our fiscal year ends on June 30, a little more than a month from now. So if you would like to help us get back on track and finish the year strong, just go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the donate button at the top of the page. And now, you can now give via text. If this is your preferred way of giving, just text @ministrywatch to 52014. Again, that's @ministrywatch to 52014. If you have a story you'd like us to cover, or a ministry that you think needs a closer look, please email us. Our email is info@155.138.219.249. That will come directly to my desk, and we'll take it from there. Also, a reminder that you can help the program by leaving us a rating on your podcast app. The more ratings we get, the easier it is for others to find us. It's a quick, easy, and free way you can support MinistryWatch. The producers for today's program are Rich Roszel and Jeff McIntosh. We get database and other technical support from Cathy Goddard, Stephen DuBarry, Emily Kern, Rod Pitzer, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Anne Stych, Donald Kramer, Kim Roberts, Adelle M. Banks, Yonat Shimron, Bob Smietana, Rod Pitzer and Christina Darnell. Until next time, may God bless you.

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Lori Anne Thompson on Truth, Trauma & Advocacy

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Play Episode Listen Later May 26, 2022 51:53

Guest Bios Show Transcript For years, Ravi Zacharias labeled her a predator and a serial extortionist. And sadly, the world believed him. But now, we know better. Ravi Zacharias was the predator in what was dubbed in 2017 as a “sexting scandal.” And Lori Anne Thompson was not just the victim of clergy sexual abuse—but of a worldwide campaign to smear her name. In this special episode of The Roys Report, you’ll hear what was definitely a highlight of the recent Restore 2022 Conference.

90: Interview | Talking Politics & Religion with Corey Nathan

The Substance

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 27, 2022 81:39

This week we are excited to share our conversation with Corey Nathan of the Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other podcast. To everyone's delight, we did get into politics and religion and did not, in fact, kill each other. Corey shares his conversion testimony, talks about his relationship with Ravi Zacharias & RZIM and how he's processed things in the last couple of years, as well as living well with and loving the people in our lives with whom we do not see eye to eye on important things. We hope you enjoy this episode, and if you do be sure to share it someone! Shoutouts: Fortune by Lisa Sharon Harper Traveler's Blues Advisory Opinions podcast Vince: Anime YT channels (get names from Vince) RDCworld1 & CalebCity Trevor: Pyrex Picasso Philip: SICK! Earl Sweatshirt Follow Corey and TP&R: https://www.politicsandreligion.us TP&R Podcast Corey's Twitter TP&R Twitter Corey's Instagram TP&R Instagram Follow Us: www.thesubstancepod.com www.instagram.com/thesubstancepod www.twitter.com/thesubstancepod www.facebook.com/thesubstancepod https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyJ1Bgzq17PDNiAR1pnDXcw This week we are sponsored by Chris Hotchkiss, American Family. If you're in the Kansas City area, reach out to Chris for a quote or second opinion at: Website: https://agent.amfam.com/christopher-hotchkiss/ks/overland-park/10100-w-87th-st-ste-300 Email: hotchki@amfam.com Phone: 913-268-8200 Share Your Questions/Suggestions/Feedback With Us: Email: thesubstancepod@gmail.com Phone: 913-703-3883 Support Us: Support the show with an individual donation on CashApp to $TheSubstancePod or become a monthly supporter at the Anchor link below! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thesubstancepod/support

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Ep. 142: RZIM Re-Boots, Liberty University, Eric Metaxas, and T.D. Jakes

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 29, 2021 24:21

On today's program, Ravi Zacharias's daughter forms a new ministry, but some former staff members and donors have concerns. And TD Jakes is doing a big real estate deal in Atlanta. We begin today with the latest chapter in the continuing saga at Liberty University. Before we go…I want to let everyone know that we have a limited supply of hardback copies of Faith Based Fraud. We're offering these books for a gift of any size as our thank you gift to anyone who makes a donation by the end of October. So that's just the next few days. And if you're one of the first 100 who respond, you'll get an autographed copy. So if you haven't gotten your copy of Faith Based Fraud, or if you want a special hardback copy for your bookshelf or for a gift, go to MinistryWatch.com and hit the donate button at the top of the page. Also…There's a quick, easy, and FREE way you can support this podcast, and that is to give us a rating on your podcast app. The more ratings we get, the more attention we get from search engines, and that helps new listeners find us. And, by the way, when you give us a rating, leave us a comment, too. I read them all. The producers for today's program are Rich Roszel and Steve Gandy. We get database and other technical support from Cathy Goddard, Stephen DuBarry, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Rod Pitzer, Christina Darnell, Anne Stych, Paul Glader, John Semakula, Kathryn Post, Pierre-Richard Luxama, Nancy Benac, Steve Rabey, and Bob Smietana. Special thanks to Religion UnPlugged for contributing material for this week's program. Until next time, may God bless you.

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Questioning Christianity || Interview with Dan Paterson || SLP371

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Play Episode Listen Later Aug 6, 2021 50:19

Dan Paterson is an author and speaker from Brisbane, Australia. Formerly of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries, Dan here speaks of his time with RZIM, what he knew of Ravi, his response to the famous evangelist's sexual, spiritual and financial abuse and his new book, Questioning Christianity.Support the show (https://speaklife.org.uk/give/)

Episode 53 - Coming Back from Scandal and Taking the Ship

Kainos Project

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 29, 2021 53:37

How can Christian organizations come back from toxic cultures created by abusive leaders? Should they come back?In this episode, we discuss the steps forward for RZIM after Ravi Zacharias' abuse scandal, the identity crisis played out at the SBC 2021 annual meeting, and what the future might hold for both. Access the show notes for this episode here, and check out our other resources (including our blog) at herandhymn.com. And be sure to subscribe to our email list to get all of our fresh content delivered straight to your inbox. Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

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Ep. 85: Youth With A Mission, RZIM Financial Liability, and Bible Translation Fundraising Schemes

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 19, 2021 28:13

On today's program, we take a close look at Youth With A Mission and the possible financial liability Ravi Zacharias International Ministries may have toward victims of its founder's sexual abuse. We begin today with news of a women's conference that raised $1.5-million for Bible translation. But questions remain about where the money is going. Each week, MinistryWatch brings you news about Christian ministries, as well as the latest in charity and philanthropy, news that we examine from a Christian worldview perspective. Our goal is to help us become better stewards of the resources God has entrusted to us. The producers for today's program are Rich Roszel and Steve Gandy. We get database and other technical support from Cathy Goddard, Stephen DuBarry, and Casey Sudduth. Writers who contributed to today's program include Rod Pitzer, Adelle Banks, Anne Stych, and Steve Rabey, Mark Pinsky, Alejandra Molina, and Shannon Cuthrell. Thanks to our friends at The NonProfit Times for contributing material to this week's program. Until next time, may God bless you.

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The Man Who Broke The Ravi Zacharias Scandals || Interview with Steve Baughman || SLP 352

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Play Episode Listen Later Mar 19, 2021 57:44

In this interview, Glen talks to Steve Baughman, the California based attorney who wrote 'Cover-Up in the Kingdom' in 2017. He has been exposing the truth about Ravi Zacharias for 6 years now and has been extremely disappointed with the Christian community's openness to truth.Watch the video here: https://youtu.be/Pv4L8k1hs2ASteve's channel is here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVyMiCZ1jOO5HZ0Lx5KOdawGlen Scrivener's talk on Tamar (2 Samuel 13) can be found here: https://youtu.be/SuOoXZ6RSPgGlen Scrivener's interview with Sam Allberry (a former RZIM employee) can be found here: https://youtu.be/SMA6ZDS7eLcAll of Speak Life's videos responding to the latest abuse scandals can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuOoXZ6RSPg&list=PL4zD5797LHdeSKbVtM7_AzOO-4miUyRQoSpeak Life is a UK based charity that resources the church to reach the world. Learn more about us here: https://speaklife.org.uk/Join our internship programme here: https://speaklifefoundry.com/Subscribe to Speak Life and get our regular videos: http://tiny.cc/ecjbgzSocial Mediafacebook.com/speakLifeuk/twitter.com/speaklifeuk/instagram.com/speaklifeuk/Support the show (https://speaklife.org.uk/give/)

Lori Anne Thompson: In Her Own Words || SLP 350

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Play Episode Listen Later Mar 12, 2021 65:43

In an exclusive interview with Glen, Lori Anne Thompson, who was Ravi Zacharias' most high profile victim of abuse, speaks out about the struggles of being a survivor and how certain cultures create conditions for abusers to get away with their heinous acts. Her powerful story shines light and exposes the evils abusers inflict.Lori Anne Thompson's victim impact statement: https://loriannethompson.com/2021/02/08/lori-anne-thompson-victim-impact-statement/Lori Anne's blog: https://loriannethompson.com/The Martin and Miller report on RZIM: https://www.rzim.org/read/rzim-updates/board-statementIf you have been victimised by Ravi Zacharias you can report to Lighthouse Services, contacts here: https://www.rzim.org/page/reporting-hotlineFor victim support more generally, see Dr Diane Langberg (https://www.dianelangberg.com/), Zero Abuse (https://www.zeroabuseproject.org/), and in the UK 31:8 (https://thirtyoneeight.org/)Glen Scrivener's talk on Tamar (2 Samuel 13) can be found here: https://youtu.be/SuOoXZ6RSPgGlen Scrivener's interview with Sam Allberry (a former RZIM employee) can be found here: https://youtu.be/SMA6ZDS7eLcAll of Speak Life's videos responding to the latest abuse scandals can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuOoXZ6RSPg&list=PL4zD5797LHdeSKbVtM7_AzOO-4miUyRQoSpeak Life is a UK based charity that resources the church to reach the world. Learn more about us here: https://speaklife.org.uk/Join our internship programme here: https://speaklifefoundry.com/Subscribe to Speak Life and get our regular videos: http://tiny.cc/ecjbgzSocial Mediafacebook.com/speakLifeuk/twitter.com/speaklifeuk/instagram.com/speaklifeuk/Support the show (https://speaklife.org.uk/give/)

S2E5 Very Good Christian Podcast: Addressing The Ravi Zacharias Controversy - RZIM

Very Good Christian Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 3, 2021 55:19

Shawn and Blair react and discuss how to properly address the sin as seen in the recent scandal revolving around the late renowned Christian apologist, Ravi Zacharias. patreon.com/VGCpodcast --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/verygoodchristianpodcast/support

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Understanding the Ravi Zacharias Scandal

Peter's Proffer with Peter Tragos

Play Episode Play 59 sec Highlight Listen Later Mar 1, 2021 23:12

In today's episode of the Lawyer You Know, we talk about Ravi Zacharias a world-famous Christian evangelist who died in May of 2020. Soon after his death, allegations of abuse to massage therapists around the world start coming to light. It soon became very clear that the ministry led by his family and a multimillion-dollar non-profit organization failed to protect these women. Host, Pete Tragos, discuss the open letter written posted from RZIM, their internal investigation, and what options they may use moving forward. Instagram - @tragoslawTiktok - @thelawyeryouknowWebsite - www.tragoslaw.com

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PART 4 The Church Hurt Hypocrisy to a series on RZIM ravi zacharias scandal

Sons of Valor

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 26, 2021 32:20

Join Brian, Dr. Ryan, Steve and Bob as they discuss the lessons we can learn from the recent Ravi Zacharias Sex Scandal. To Learn More about Pastor Bob Lindquist check out Beloved. To learn more about Pastor Steve Cassell check out SCM. To learn more about Dr. Ryan Bensheimer check out Expedition 44 Please check out graceops.net Join our email list Get some gear Share our brand and culture with your friends If we see you wearing our stuff and acting like a douche, we will ask for it back! Podcast Description: We produce two types of episodes Round table discussions Simple biblical devotions We share engaging lessons, stories and values that will empower men to live with courage on the battlefield of life. Our purpose is to discover and define biblical masculinity, that results in effective leadership and impact within our spheres.

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Interview with Sam Allberry || What Can We Learn from the Ravi Zacharias Scandals? || SLP 348

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Play Episode Listen Later Feb 26, 2021 62:46

In the continuing fall-out from the post-humous uncovering of Ravi Zacharias' scandalous abuse of women, we talk to Sam Allberry. He is an ordained Anglican minister and until recently, an employee and speaker for RZIM - the ministry Zacharias founded. Sam speaks to Glen about how he tried to raise concerns about him, only for to be rebuffed by the organisation.Speak Life is a UK based charity that resources the church to reach the world. Learn more about us here: https://speaklife.org.uk/Join our internship programme here: https://speaklifefoundry.com/Subscribe to Speak Life and get our regular videos: http://tiny.cc/ecjbgzSocial Mediafacebook.com/speakLifeuk/twitter.com/speaklifeuk/instagram.com/speaklifeuk/Support the show (https://speaklife.org.uk/give/)

PART 3 PAST Red flags to a series on RZIM ravi zacharias scandal

Sons of Valor

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 25, 2021 23:55

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PART 2 RED FLAGS to a series on RZIM ravi zacharias scandal

Sons of Valor

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 24, 2021 36:15

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We All Must Learn To Die || Responding to the Ravi Zacharias Scandals || Matthew 16:15-25 || SLP 347