Podcasts about national industries

This week on the GovNavigators Show, Soraya Correa, President and CEO of National Industries for the Blind and a longtime leader in federal acquisition, joins the show to reflect on her career and what's next for procurement reform. Soraya shares stories from her time building the Procurement Innovation Lab at DHS, offers a no-nonsense take on the FAR overhaul, and explains why empowering contracting officers—and bridging the gap between government and industry—matters more than ever.Show NotesJWOD: Javits-Wagner-O'Day ActPIL: Procurement Innovation LabEO: Restoring Common Sense to Federal Procurement Events on the GovNavigators' RadarJune 10, 2025: Arnold Ventures event on Impoundment  June 11, 2025: House Oversight and Government Reform Hearing on Reforming Defense Procurement June 25, 2025: ACT-IAC's Data & Analytics Forum 

A long-time federal career procurement executive has a new job. She's the CEO of a contractor. But not just any contractor but a non-profit with a purpose. Soraya Correa was chief procurement officer at the Homeland Security Department, among other things, and retired as a member of the Senior Executive Service. This year she became president and CEO of the National Industries for the Blind. Ms. Correa joins me now. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A long-time federal career procurement executive has a new job. She's the CEO of a contractor. But not just any contractor but a non-profit with a purpose. Soraya Correa was chief procurement officer at the Homeland Security Department, among other things, and retired as a member of the Senior Executive Service. This year she became president and CEO of the National Industries for the Blind. Ms. Correa joins me now. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode, I share a short segment of a recorded presentation I gave to the Continuous Process Improvement Forum hosted within the National Industries of the Blind. They wanted to hear my perspective on AI, so I shared how I've utilized for my consulting work. NIB is a great organization whose mission is to enhance the opportunities for economic and personal independence of people who are blind, primarily through creating, sustaining, and improving employment. Links National Industries for the Blind: https://nib.org/ If you're interested in taking a Lean, Green Belt or Black Belt course, consider these self-paced affordable courses from OpEx Training: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.leansixsigmadefinition.com/shop/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Need help in your organization, or want to discuss your current work situation? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Let's talk! Schedule a free support call⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Podcast Sponsor: Creative Safety Supply is a great resource for free guides, infographics, and continuous improvement tools. I recommend starting with their 5S guide. It includes breakdowns of the five pillars, ways to begin implementing 5S, and even organization tips and color charts. From red tags to floor marking; it's all there. Download it for free at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠creativesafetysupply.com/5S⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BIZ-PI.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LeanSixSigmaDefinition.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Have a question? ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Submit a voice message at Podcasters.Spotify.com⁠

In this episode, we sit down with Soraya Correa, a seasoned leader in government service and current President and CEO of National Industries for the Blind, to explore strategies for building a fulfilling career in the public sector. Soraya shares her expert advice on thoughtfully changing jobs within the government, ensuring a career path with no regrets. She also delves into the intricacies of navigating the federal job application process and offers insights into launching an innovation lab within a bureaucratic environment. If you're interested in a procurement, nonprofit, or government service careers, this episode is packed with actionable tips and inspiration. LINKS: + MetroStar's Innovation Lab: https://bit.ly/4cvGT9l + MetroStar's LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/4dtgJW2 + Soraya Correa's LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3X8RyCg The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of MetroStar. The material and information presented here are for general information purposes only. The MetroStar name and all forms and abbreviations are the property of their owner, and their use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product, or service.

On this episode, we have an all-women's panel featuring Donielle Lorelli, Product Manager of Textiles at National Industries for the Blind, Kaylee Smith, Senior Sales Executive at MMI Textiles, and Lindsay Zientek, Channel Account Manager at Gold Eagle Company. They will discuss how they got their start in the textile industry, how they build and manage personal and professional relationships with colleagues, how they navigate a healthy work-life balance, the steps they take to manage burn-out, and what's next in their careers.

When it comes to inclusion, it is all about education.   Surrounding yourself around others that are not like yourself is going to push you to learn more about others. This education then leads to the ability to be more inclusive and helping to be more accessible to other groups.   On this show, we had the chance to talk with two amazing gentlemen, both who started their lives out with vision and are now legally blind. The things that these gentlemen are doing to “change the perception of blindness” for others is instrumental!   In this discussion, they talk about the fears that set in when it comes to inclusion and accessibility. There is fear from one side when it comes to asking. Asking if a blind individual needs help. Asking how you can support them. There is fear from the blind community when it comes to applying for jobs, getting support, etc.   We all have fears when it comes to taking steps to change AND change is necessary. Asking the questions is something the simplest place to start.   This episode is a vital episode to listen to if you are wanting to support different communities in being more inclusive and accessible and you don't know where to start. This podcast gives encouragement to just start. It can start with simply asking questions. Ask how to help, how to change, how to improve… and then let's do it! Did you know?   7 out of 10 working age people in Arizona who are blind or visually impaired are not working Estimated to be about 20K 45% of hiring managers believe there are no jobs within their organization that a person who is blind could do Changing the perception of blindness is the biggest barrier to employment and inclusion So, ask the questions to start to make the change.   We are in this together and can make the changes to help others in the blind community. We can help this community and others to feel included and have the tools to allow them the access to resources and jobs.   Arizona Industries for the Blind (AIB) is a solution provider… Solving today's complex business problems by providing quality products and value-added Business Process Outsourcing services that matter to their customers. While providing a viable option for Arizonians who are blind or visually impaired to achieve their version of the “American Dream” through dignified employment.   Their mission is to inspire individuals who are blind or visually impaired to achieve their highest goals and aspirations by creating and sustaining career opportunities while providing quality products and services.   Through collaborative partnerships with Federal, State and private sector companies they are able to provide Third Party Logistics services, Document Conversion services and quality AbilityOne products. David Steinmetz is the Community and Public Relations Manager at Arizona Industries for the Blind in Phoenix. David works to “change the perception of blindness” through his advocacy and public relations efforts.   Mr. Steinmetz serves as the Public Information Committee Chair on the Governor's Council on Blindness & Visual Impairments (GCBVI), and is a Board of Director on the Vision Rehabilitation Assistive Technology Expo and Arizona Center for the Blind & Visually Impaired. David is a graduate of Arizona State University and participated in the National Industries for the Blind Business Management Training program through the Darden School of business.   In 2008, David was the recipient of the National Industries for the Blind Milton J. Samuelson Career Achievement award. This prestigious award recognized Mr. Steinmetz for his career achievements and community service work.   Mr. Steinmetz enjoys spending time with his family, fishing and traveling across the United States. David believes that every person who is blind deserves the right to full participation in work, community and life and with the right training, right technology and right attitude it is possible. Follow AIB on LinkedIn and Facebook.   With a 70% unemployment rate in the blind community, Clusiv is helping remove barriers to employment for the blind community by revolutionizing training and services for the modern workforce.   Their eLearning platform has been built to be accessible with assistive technology that blind or visually impaired people use, and this platform holds employment skills training courses to cover technology, occupational and career skills for the modern-workforce. Clusiv works with state vocational rehabilitation agencies to provide access to its courses to people who are blind or visually impaired. They help simplify the work of vocational rehabilitation counselors through their Assessment Tool, easy enrollment process, and positive outcomes for their clients to achieve measurable skills gained.   Clusiv is here to equip the blind community for employment and impact inclusion in the modern workforce by giving graduates the skills, confidence, and insights needed to find competitive integrated employment and be an advocate for positive change in the workforce for people with disabilities. To learn more and get in touch go to https://clusiv.io/. Blake Steinecke grew up with perfect vision and at the age of 16 a condition called LHON caused him to go through severe central vision loss and become legally blind. This created many new challenges of relearning how to do school, navigating college, employment and more.   Blake has a degree in marketing from Cal State San Marcos and has worked in software sales, marketing in the mountain bike industry, accessibility testing and training, and now leads marketing for Clusiv as the Growth Manager.   Through Blake's work, he is able to connect his educational and professional background, lived experience navigating the challenges of education and employment being blind, and his passion to serve the blind community through the work he does with Clusiv.   Outside of work Blake plays blind hockey for the US Blind Hockey Team, enjoys spending time with his wife, Amanda, and making videos, some of which you can find on his YouTube channel Adapting Sight.   Connect with Blake on LinkedIn and follow Clusiv on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. About Culture Crush Culture is not just a tag word to be thrown around. It is not something you throw in job descriptions to draw people to applying for jobs within a company.   According to Marcus Buckingham and Ashely Goodall in their book Nine Lies About Work, “Culture is the tenants of how we behave. It's like a family creed. This is how we operate and treat each other in the family.” As a growing company:    There are many resources out there for company culture but they are scattered and difficult to find. Culture is not a one size fits all, so it is important for companies to find the resources that are the right fit for growing their own company culture.    We have worked to build a hub that brings all of the resources together in one place and one community. The Culture Crush Business is the one stop shop for everything related to growing company culture.    On this podcast:   We focus on everything surrounding businesses with good company culture. We will talk with company leaders to learn about real-life experiences, tips, and best practices for creating a healthy work environment where employees are finding joy and satisfaction in their work while also striving and growing within the company. We also find the companies that offer resources to help improve company culture and showcase them on the show to share their tips and tricks for growing culture. About the Host Kindra Maples is spartan racer, past animal trainer, previous magician's assistant, and has a weakness for Oreo cookie shakes. Her journey working with people actually started working with animals as a teenager (don't worry we won't go that far back for her bio).   She worked for over 15 years in the zoo industry working with animals and the public. Her passion of working with animals shifted into working with people in education, operations and leadership roles. From there her passion of leadership and helping people develop has continued to grow.   Then came the opportunity for leading the Culture Crush Business Podcast and she jumped on it. Leadership, growth, and strong company cultures are all areas that Kindra is interested in diving into further.

Director of Strategic Partnerships, Billy Parker, stops by to explain how NSITE is a one-stop-shop for blindness employment. A spinoff of the National Industries for the Blind (NIB), NSITE works with employers to identify potential candidates who are blind, visually impaired, and/or veterans. From there, NSITE assists with accessibility needs, onboarding, and training, then prepares both parties for job placement. Their work does not end there; it continues with ongoing support to accommodate changes in accessible technology and employer requirements.  Billy and John also discuss how remote work opportunities have been a game-changing element to today's workforce and how accessible technology benefits everyone.   :: PODCAST LINKS :: For show notes, guest profiles, photos, blog and more information, visit AmbiguouslyBlind.com and connect on:    Instagram | Facebook | Twitter | Linkedin  Like what we're doing? Support us: Buy Me A Coffee This is a listener supported podcast.  Please consider donating to build and sustain our community  :: EPISODE LINKS :: Guest details: Billy Parker: https://www.ambiguouslyblind.com/guests/billy-parker/ NSITE Website: https://nsite.org/  Blind Grilling Experience Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/blind-grilling-experience/id1515334158  Flame Boss Website: https://www.flameboss.com/   

It's a shame when the only way to get an agency's attention on an acquisition problem is through a lawsuit. Unfortunately, it's an all too common occurrence with draft solicitations, final solicitations and post-award debriefings. The latest example from the National Industries for the Blind, the Association for Vision Rehabilitation and Employment and the National Association for the Employment of People who are Blind against the General Services Administration epitomizes this problem. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

It's a shame when the only way to get an agency's attention on an acquisition problem is through a lawsuit. Unfortunately, it's an all too common occurrence with draft solicitations, final solicitations and post-award debriefings. The latest example from the National Industries for the Blind, the Association for Vision Rehabilitation and Employment and the National Association for the Employment of People who are Blind against the General Services Administration epitomizes this problem. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Cheryl Rayburn was 16 years old when she was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa, a genetic disorder that involves the loss of cells in the retina, the light-sensitive tissue that lines the back of the eye. She finished high school, graduated from Missouri State University, and began a career in the mortgage industry. After 10 years, she stopped working because of her vision loss. In 2015, Cheryl toured Alphapointe and enrolled in training, studying braille, orientation and mobility, activities of daily living, and adaptive technology. Eventually, she started working for Alphapointe, an agency of National Industries for the Blind, so that she could help people with low vision.Thank you for listening to Allied! For transcripts, show information, and updates, visit our website.Follow us on social media! We can be found on Facebook and Twitter.

In the studio, today is David D'Arcangelo, Commissioner of the Massachusetts Commission for the Blind. David has focused on making MCB the best it can be. Learn about the concept of disability as a qualification, the Accessibility Technology Survey, the entrepreneurial program developed with NIB, and dig into the 32 reallotment projects MCB has done over the past few years.   David is the Idea Guy and shares a lot of information in this brief 30-minute conversation.   Find out more about what is happening at MCB:     MCB Home Page 2020 Reallotment Project Summary 2021 Reallotment Project Summary   Listen Here   Full Transcript {Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well welcome to the Manager Minute. Joining me in the studio today is David D'Arcangelo, Commissioner of the Massachusetts Commission for the Blind. Thanks for joining me today, David. How are things going in Massachusetts?   David: Going very well. Looking forward to a great 2023. And thanks for having me again.   Carol: You bet. Me too. I love this 2023. I have my little resolutions for this year. You know, I really want to be intentional. That's one of my things. So I know I had you on the show over a year ago and we were talking about some of your great employment strategies during National Disability Employment Awareness Month. And you have had so many cool initiatives going on in your state that I think of you as the Idea Guy. I put you and Joe Xavier from California up there as two bold leaders in VR that we can all learn something from. Now, I know you've been keeping your head down and really looking forward focused on making your agency the very best it can be. And it also seemed like you were having some just really amazing employment successes for customers during COVID. So now more than ever, we need to take some serious steps to address the problem of spending VR dollars and improving outcomes. And you started looking at the problem when you first started at MCB and you hit the ground running. So let's dig in. I know we have lots to talk about. So David, can you remind our listeners about yourself? Where did you come from and how long have you been at MCB?   David: Sure. Well, I'm a consumer of MCB also, and being legally blind from a young age. I remember getting VR services back when I was in junior high school and high school. So that's really my first impression with MCB was as a consumer, as a young man. But since joining MCB in 2018, I came over from the Office on Disability, where I was the director of the Massachusetts Office on Disability. So when the MCB position opened up and got an opportunity to serve. And, making great strides for these past five years and looking forward to hopefully more time to be able to get our people employed and help lead our people to more independence and self determination.   Carol: That's awesome. So can you tell us a little bit about MCB? Like, how many staff do you guys have and how many customers are you serving currently?   David: Sure. So we're one of the first blindness agencies in the country. We often argue with Connecticut, if they were first, we were first, but we were established in 1906 with one of our first commissioners being Helen Keller. So we have a long history and track record of providing services for people with blindness throughout Massachusetts. We currently serve approximately 24,000 people in Massachusetts with all types of services. Massachusetts is a little bit different than many of the other states. We don't provide just for VR services, and that's not to diminish VR services, but we also provide what we call our services or social rehabilitation services and deafblind extended support services. So we serve people who are blind and deafblind and people with blindness and then additional significant disabilities. So that adds up. Our 24,000 people and our range of blindness really is the whole spectrum. So everybody from hi partial and legally blind like me all the way to somebody who has no light perception at all. And we know from the data that we've collected that actually there's probably more people at MCB as consumers who have visions closer to me than vision, closer to somebody who has no light perception at all. So we've got some data that's going to be coming out that I would encourage everybody to look at. We did an assistive technology survey recently with all of our consumers that really reveals information that I think people will take notice of because many times people were thinking that, oh, well, your consumers, they can't see, so they're not on the Internet or they're not taking part with this technology. And our survey really sheds new light on that. So stay tuned for that. You can check that out on our website, Mass.gov/MCB. It's really going to be an important survey when we reveal these results. It's going to be eye opening for people.   Carol: Well, cool. Yeah. Shoot me a note when that comes out. I'm really interested in seeing that. Do you also serve individuals like starting as babies? Like because some programs I know do that. We did not in Minnesota but I know some start very young with kids.   David: Yeah in Massachusetts we serve people from birth to death. So cradle to grave with all of our services and the social rehabilitation services that we provide are really geared around independence and self determination. So we will start providing services as soon as somebody gets that mandatory report of legal blindness and they're declared, which we are the keeper of, that we register somebody as legally blind after their doctor, their eye care provider, has provided us with that record. And then we get the services flowing, whether it's teaching Braille or providing assistive technology, orientation and mobility, training, all of these core services, we really believe getting those in place first.   Carol: Yeah   David: That's really going to help in terms of VR. It's setting the bedrock so people are already independent and self determined and then can focus on their career goals.   Carol: Yes. So smart. You've got the foundational pieces in place and early, you know, you're getting at the students early, which is incredible. That is great. That is great. So I really liked your getting grounded in that three part framework. You talk about it and I was reading it again on your website about the Path to Prosperity is Paved with Perseverance. Can you tell me more about that?   David: Sure. Carol, thanks. Really. I first said that publicly during the commencement address that I gave for Lesley University's Threshold Program. Lesley University has a great program for people with intellectual disabilities where they provide a college like experience. And back in 2017, when I was director of the state's Office on Disability, I had the great opportunity to be able to provide the commencement address there. And that's really where I first laid out that I believe the path to prosperity is paved by perseverance. Or what does that mean? I think that becoming employed is not a one step thing. There are many steps on that path on your career journey. So we really try to instill in to our consumers here at MCB that there is no get rich quick scheme. This is not a one click approach like so many of us are conditioned today through these devices and through technology. Just one click in your in. Getting a career, getting employed, getting your job, getting on that path to prosperity takes many steps. You got to hang in there because it's not easy. If it was easy, it would be done easily and everybody would do it. Everybody would be a multimillionaire. It takes many steps and depending upon your disability or in mass commission for the blind on your blindness, there's such a spectrum. And really we have to work with everybody individually because everybody is in a different stage in life. And some people are aging into blindness. Some people, it comes upon them quickly. Some people have it from a young age, some people come to it at mid age. It's so different for everybody. And we really just want to make sure that people are clear what the expectations that we're going to be with them through their journey along this path and that it does take time. All good things come in time. So that's really what the path to prosperity is paved with. Perseverance is about that you've got to persevere. These are challenging things. The very essence of being a person with a disability. Disability comes with challenge, It does. And so we try to get people to accept their disability, accept that challenge and then help them work through it. And so I believe in people and I believe anybody can become employed. I think work matters. I think it goes to the identity of a person. If I were to see you in the grocery store and we would have strike up a conversation, invariably one of the first questions that you or I would ask each other is, Well, so what do you do? And if you're employed, you're going to tell me about your job because it goes to the identity, it goes to who you are and what you're accomplishing. So work matters. Our consumers matter, and that's why we want to try to get them employed, because there's so many contributions in our community that we're trying to bring out for the benefit of our consumers, but also for the benefit of society. I really believe that our people have a lot to give and you've got to hang in there. That's part of being on the path to prosperity.   Carol: I think that is one of the cool things with blind services. It's very foundational. All the things that you have to learn. And I remember being at Minnesota blind and just seeing that, especially with people that came in that were new to their vision loss and it happened abruptly. Something happened, an illness or something overnight almost, and you wake up and you can't see and everything changes. How you read, how you get around in the world, how you get around in your home and your clothes and like how you do everything and having to learn all those foundational pieces first and getting that acceptance and then working on work skills because you can't just launch right into that when somebody goes, I don't even know if I'm wearing the orange socks with the black suit. I don't know what I have on.   David: One of the initiatives we've been working on and we keep advancing is something that I came up with about ten years ago that I've been trying to encourage people in VR to embrace, and that is the concept of disability as a qualification. I really believe that the lived experience that our people have to learn to problem solve around is a qualification in and of itself. Let me give you an example. If I were to take somebody with good vision and ask them to cross a busy intersection, they probably wouldn't think twice of it. Right?   Carol: Right.   David:  But to take one of our consumers who can't see and ask them to cross an intersection, the skills involved and the intestinal fortitude involved with crossing that intersection. You know what? I want that person on my team, if they're going to be able to go out and have the intestinal fortitude to be able to do that and then the demonstrated skill to be able to do it, because that takes sophistication, if that life experience does not qualify you for some type of role that deals with problem solving. How many employment opportunities are there out there for people who are good problem solvers, for people that have a solid backbone and won't just roll over? Right?   Carol: Right. I love that you say that.   David: Those are qualifications, those matter.   Carol: They do matter. So I'm just going to say a little thing about me. When we were in Minnesota at the blind agency, all of the leadership team and the VR counselors, the staff, you had to go through six weeks of sleep shade training, so you were under sleep shades for six weeks. And so doing that as a new director myself, having that experience, it's just a taste, but we did go to one of our Adjustment to Blindness Training Centers. We had the experience of the classes all day under sleep shades. I still remember at the end of the day, walking out. I had my cane. I was still had my sleep shades on. I'd taken them off and I got in my car. I scared a lady that was across the street. She's like, That blind lady is driving now, but getting that very firsthand experience about that problem solving that goes into everything you do during the day that is so interesting and very applicable to the world of work, for sure.   David: Yeah. So that's why we're pushing disability as a qualification. We believe that those lived experiences are going to help employers and a really good qualifications for employees.   Carol: Yeah, that's very cool. Very interesting thought. So I want to take you back to 2020. You asked for reallotment dollars, but you had some very specific initiatives you wanted to accomplish and in fact, you were dealing with the pandemic and you wanted to figure out your role in pioneering a path forward in a post-COVID recovery. So talk to me about what went into that 2020 that ask for reallotment dollars and kind of how you framed up all of those initiatives.   David: Sure. Well, we wanted to make the best use of our time knowing that we were not going to have the community interactions and be able to travel freely like we had been doing. So we said, let's study this and let's come up with some things now, some of the things we had put in motion, some of the plans that we had put in motion were prior to COVID. So it seemed that we were prescient on some of them, like our ad campaign we did, What's Your Vision? So now we've been on Massachusetts television with our announcements, not just public service announcements, but paid ads to be able to get the message out to employers, Hey, we've got candidates for you and get the message out to our consumers that, hey, we'll work with you to get on this path to employment. So there's campaigns like that. But then we followed it up. Once we knew COVID was in there and we did our Quest for Independence, which is a graphic novel which is aimed at not only the consumer, but people in the consumer's sphere of influence, their brothers, their sisters, their fathers and mothers and guidance counselors and people there so that those people can understand the path to employment that we lay out in the process that we do. So it starts at pre training and goes through all of the steps along the way and we make it like a questing journey. We made it like kind of cool and try to put it in a format that people of Pre-ETS age would be more apt to buy into. So many of the VR documents are black and white text only small print, like who's reading that? Who's consuming that? Certainly not a 15 or 18 year old person that we're trying to get interested in the workforce. So whether it's things like that or whether it's studying Disability as a Qualification that we just talked about or trying to do some of the other surveys that we put together, we really tried to make the best use of our time. I think in all total now we're up to 32 or 34 reallotment projects that we've done over the past three or four years.   Carol: Oh my gosh!   David: Yeah. We've really tried to make good use of our time and build the catalog of information. And all of this is available to VR people if they want to visit our website again, Mass.gov/MCB. All of the re allotment projects are out there. We have studies on the Built Environment in the Workplace. We have studies on Disability as a Qualification on Assistive Technology. So many different topics we have data on as well as these ad campaigns. We did one with Sleep Machine recently. We worked up 16 different types of consumers and interactions that it's not a one size fits all approach. We really got it into 16 different approaches, so it tries to suit all of the different demographic areas, and that's a VR approach that we took so many different projects that we encourage people to find out more on our website.   Carol: I know you did a lot of data analysis. There were a lot of projects around different data analysis, so maybe talk about one or two of those and how you used that data to now kind of inform your programming or whatever you're doing now at the agency.   David: Well, the assistive technology one is a perfect example like. When I came to MCB and I said, I want to do a survey, they kind of like chuckled and I'm like, Why do you want to do? And I said, Well, how many of our people have email or how many of them use the Internet? I remember distinctly without naming names, but some really veteran VR people saying, none of our people use the Internet Commissioner or they don't do this. Well, come to find out that 70% use it daily. That right there was like informing our programming because no longer was I going to allow this myth to be put forward that our people don't use the Internet. That's just not so. Now we've got to make sure that we're making these sites accessible. So a recent proposal that I've been working on is a registered apprenticeship program for our consumers who are blind. Who better to make these websites accessible than people who are already using screen reader technology? So we're trying to get two registered apprenticeships, one in making web pages accessible, and then the other for making other online things accessible apps and forms and documents online and things like in the electronic space. So we're working right now with the Department of Labor, but we're also seeking other states. You need five states to be able to make a cohort to do it. So if people are interested in joining our cohort, please contact us and let us know if you want to join in this registered apprenticeship program that we're going to be launching soon.   Carol: That's super cool and very smart and needed. I mean, there's a lot of sites, a lot of websites in a lot of trouble because they are not accessible. I love that you did the Assistive Technology survey. I've thought for years, like the invention of Apple and the iPhone and all of that single handedly changed just information for people who are blind, visually impaired because that device is accessible and it was built-in. There's so many cool apps now and things out there that our folks are using now. I know you also contracted out for your comprehensive Statewide Needs Assessment and that that isn't necessarily new. A lot of states do that because it's much easier to contract with someone than do it yourself. But what was different about that particular assessment and how do you use the information that you got from that?   David: Yeah, again, I think that was the one where we put it out there and the awarded bidder I think was the public consulting group. So they're a pretty big firm. They had worked in other states before. I think one of the things that they had worked in was like Indiana. And so we work with them. Obviously our sister agency, MRC, we wanted to make sure that we were kind of on the same page as well. So I think that helped and really it helped strengthen the things that we already knew we were doing well. They really came in and were able to look at that and say, Yeah, you know what, you should probably keep doing that. Did identify some areas and we've made some adjustments as well. And I think now in this post COVID world, we were prescient that we were trying to already get our people to be able to work remotely, whether it be our staff, who a significant amount of our staff are actually our consumers also, which were very prideful in that they'd been remote prior to COVID. And so now the trends in employment with less and less people in an office environment, we really were again, a little bit ahead of the curve in trying to predict that We think that's where the workforce is going. There's going to be more and more opportunities that are away from an office environment. So if you can work online effectively, that's just going to increase opportunities for our consumers.   Carol: Oh, I agree 100%. So how has all of this helped your numbers? Like where are you at today? Do you feel like have things moved up or are you getting customers back? How about people getting into employment, all these different initiatives? Has it led to some success and outcomes?   David: Yes, it has led to success and outcomes. Our numbers are up generally across the board. There's a couple of exceptions, but things we really like to talk about is the nature of the jobs that we're able to help our people navigate into. And just to be clear, we are very up front with our people. People like, get me a job, get me a job. We're very upfront with them and say, we can't get you a job. We can help you get you a job. We don't get anybody jobs. Our consumers get themselves jobs. We're there to help and build value and work within whether it be any of the networks that we develop with stakeholders or using the existing public systems or education, whatever the case may be. It's consumer driven, it's consumer informed, and it's consumer driven. We make that clear that really we're just a partner in this, and it's up to the consumer to be able to make the final decision. One of the things that I think is very successful is that there's more choice than ever before. I think our consumers were faced with maybe one opportunity, and if they didn't take it, it was like, all right, let's start all over again. Or, you know, now let's go on another six month search. Now our consumers are being presented with multiple offers, multiple opportunities. That's a really good sign. Another really good sign is the nature of the jobs that they're getting. We're now going past just the entry level job or the base job, and we're into more management. Some of our placements are six figure placements. These are consumers that many of them have been with us for a while, but some are fairly new. So like before, this is where I think our ad campaign is really helped us because consumers who maybe hadn't approach MCB before are now approaching MCB. So we're doing our best to reduce the stigma of what it means to join MCB. So many people before who were low vision, high, partial, legally blind...   Carol: Yes...   David: ...didn't really feel that they were. Well, I can see I'm not really blind. Well, if you're legally blind, then you're entitled to the services. And so people with existing track records of employment that they've been in the workforce for 20 years and now they've lost their vision. Before, many of them were just leaving. And then we would find out five years later, well, I left because I was depressed or I left because I couldn't do the job. Now we get to them more quickly and actually work with them and the employer to let them know, Hey, we're there for you. We're there to provide these reasonable accommodations. We're there to emphasize the great skills that you have. So many of these things can be remediated now with technology. So we're seeing six figure placements. We're seeing management level placements. These are all very encouraging signs. But again, they didn't just happen overnight. It's the culmination of all of these programs working together. And most importantly, let me just give a great shout out to our counselors, our VR counselors develop these relationships and work with these consumers. And really, they're part of the secret sauce here, sitting at their kitchen table with them and their families and letting them know that we're going to be there with them. I think that's irreplaceable. And you can create whatever program you want and fund it however you want. At the end of the day, that needs to happen. Without that, I don't think we'd be having the success that we're having.   Carol: I love that. I know your PSA campaign was really clever because I had looked at the ads. Very cool. Are you still continuing to do that? Is that still going on?   David: Yeah. So we're looking at another reallotment project to fund another ad buy. We're going to have a dialogue with RSA about it. I think we can show that we got results from it and if we can, I'm hoping that they'll say that that's a good use of the money. You know, right now we've gone through some change. We've had a significant aging of our MCB workforce. We've had retirements of people that have been at the agency for 40 years, 38 years, 39 years. So I think COVID really helped in a way where it gave people a pause to be able to adjust. And that's not only our consumers and our counselors, but really like the whole workforce. And as a result, many people are saying, you know what, it's now time I've put my time in and it's time to give it up to the next generation, which is good. But it's a challenge because now we spent a significant amount of time trying to backfill these positions and like something with orientation and mobility. I think one of our O & M people we got from California, another one from Michigan. So hunting around trying to find talent can be challenging and we're certainly not trying to raid other agencies or muscle other competition out because Massachusetts is the state where the cost of living is quite high. We want to make sure if we're getting people here, that they're positioned for long term success. So we've definitely been trying to navigate some of that, as I think many of my colleagues can probably resonate with on at their state level.   Carol: Oh yeah, that is the hot topic of the day. The mass retirement and kind of exodus of people out of VR. I know when I was at Minnesota, this is, you know, ten years ago I walked in the door in HR hands me a list saying I think it was over 50% of the staff were eligible to retire in the next three years. I just went, what? And they did, you know, people did because people have been with the agency. They all started together. They'd been there 30, 40 years together. And they all went. And then that just got exacerbated by the pandemic. People going out the door for sure. If people are wanting to find your PSA information, is that also on your website still?   David: It sure is. And it's on our YouTube channel as well. When I came to MCB, we had no social media. Now we've got Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and our own YouTube channel and all of these avenues that we've gotten such great input from our consumers and their families because, yeah, it's about serving the consumer, but it's also about serving their families because that's oftentimes the people that are working with the consumers just as much, if not more than our counselors. So it's about empowering the whole consumer. And what I mean, the whole consumer, I mean, it's their extended family. It's their spouse or their son or their daughter or their niece or their nephew. They're aunt, their uncle or their friend or neighbor. It takes a village. And we've had good success with that approach.   Carol: Great. It absolutely does take a village. Can you give that website address one more time?   David: Yeah, sure. It's. Mass.gov/MCB. So, its Mass dot gov. Forward slash m c b.   Carol: Excellent! Yeah. Because I know you have a lot of really good stuff out on the website, so I know you are always thinking you don't ever stop. You're on to the next thing. So what's up on deck next for MCB?   David: Yeah, I think we just need to continue to now emerge from the pandemic and continue to assimilate so many new staff that we've got. I mean, I think of our 130 staff, about 40 of them are new within the past couple of years. So there's a big assimilation going on, number one, but really making sure that our community feels safe to get back out there and independent and self determined, ready to go. That's job one.  Is getting that adjustment to blindness, that acceptance of blindness, continuing to find new consumers to be able to provide the services to. Then once we do that, then at the tried and true, it's wash, rinse, repeat on what our counselors and what VR has established so well. It's mentoring and then interning and then interviewing and then getting a job and then staying upwardly mobile in that job and trying to move up into management or entrepreneurial. And one of the new things we're working on that we piloted last year successfully with National Industries for the Blind is this entrepreneurial program. We really believe that that is the future for many of our consumers that are interested in a small business opportunity, and that is establishing an e-commerce presence online where you own your own thing and you're really an entrepreneur at that point, selling products and services online through their accessible platform. For years, we tried to get our consumers interested in selling on Amazon or eBay or these other e commerce platforms. But the platform itself, the app, the technology itself was not accessible to screen readers working with the national industries of the blind and tremendous credit to them for investing a significant amount of their time and resources into making an e commerce platform that is accessible for screen reader technology. This is a huge opportunity for people with blindness who are interested in being their own business owner online in the e commerce space. Like I said, we piloted last year. We proved the proof of concept. We have another class now going in. I would encourage anybody who thinks they have a consumer interested in this space to contact national industries of the Blind. Mention the pilot with Massachusetts that we've done. They'll know what you're talking about and get your consumers enrolled because this really is the future and it's a great opportunity.   Carol: Yeah, I thought that was a super smart idea when I was reading because that was one of your re allotment projects was to study it and to look at it and to figure that out so that can actually be a viable option for your customers.   David: That's right. We didn't just rush in horns first. We studied it, we spent time, looked around, conferred with NIB, and NIB has done a great job. Like I said, they've really made a major investment here and using their Ability One shops that they've had, they have such a tremendous network of providers and vendors that many of the products, I think it's about half of the products are actually made by blind people also. So it's almost like a double win when you really get down to it. To be able to sell these products online. We're very optimistic about it. Good things start humbly and that's where we started. We started with the first class. I think we started with 12 people. Then it went to 6 because some people didn't have the screen reader skills necessary that you would need. Then from the 6,, 3 of them dropped out because they didn't want to own the lemonade stand. They just wanted to work the lemonade stand right there from the 3. It went to 2 and then 1 ended up actually seeing it all the way through and becoming profitable. So we've proved the proof of concept. We just now need more consumers. So if you've got consumers in your area, let's get them going.   Carol: Well, it always starts with 1. You need one, you know, and then there's 2 and then there's 3 and it keeps moving up. That's great. At least it gives another opportunity. And it really is the gift that keeps on giving. You know, when you look at using those reeallotment dollars, it doesn't just benefit you. In Massachusetts, the work that you're doing can benefit the whole country.   David: Yeah, I really think that, Carol. And if people again go to Mass.gov/MCB, look at the, again now, I think it's either up to 30 or 32 different real allotment projects that we've done. There's quite a bit of information in there from studies to these campaigns to the Quest for Independence guide that we did, all of these different things. they're there for everybody else to be able to use. If we've had success, you can just kind of repurpose it and have success in your area with it.   Carol: Well, and your quest to  independence. Guide You've been being very modest about it, but that is hilarious because it's a comic book and you're the superhero. In it. It is the coolest thing. I thought that was the most clever thing I had seen in that Pre-ETS space.   David: Well, thanks, Carol. If it leads to one more employment, then we'll be pleased.   Carol: Yeah, that's cool. So, David, I know there's a lot of new directors across the country like you were a few years ago. What kind of advice would you give them as they're wrestling with ways to effectively spend their funds?   David: Yeah, it would really be, Don't just settle for what has been done previously. I've found the people at RSA to be very supportive, to be willing to listen, and just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be done. Find out what your consumers need and then figure out how to backtrack that to these federal dollars to be able to get them the resources that they need to be successful, whether it's a small business enterprise or Randolph Shepherd or they want to go to kind of a more traditional route of getting employed, whatever the case may be. There's a program that can be crafted to individualize everybody so that they feel like the job they're getting is the job for them, because that's what we want you to spend so much time getting somebody in the workforce. We want to make sure these people are staying in the workforce, staying gainfully employed, because again, we really believe that independence and self determination, that's the thing that you've got to get through so that people can long term stay viable on their own.   Carol: Well, well said. Thanks so much for being on the show today. I've been a big fan of yours for a long time and I just really wanted to get your message out to our listeners and have folks look at your website and the very cool things you can do. I know there's a synopsis of all of your projects so people can get a really good sense of what you did and what you learned. I think it was brilliant, so I wish you the very best of luck in 2023 and thanks for joining me today.   David: Carol, Thanks so much. You do such a great job. I appreciate you. Thanks for everybody for listening. And please contact us if we could be a support in any way.   Carol: Thank you.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Bryan Bashin was born fully sighted, but over time he lost his eyesight. Like many such people, he tried to hide his blindness. Bryan was, in some senses, different than many. Because as he began to discover that other blind people were leading full and successful lives, he decided that he could do the same. He received training and then began to seek employment and attained a most successful career.   Bryan would tell you that he loves learning and advocating. He is an extremely inclusive individual although he clearly does do a powerful job of advocating for blind and low-vision persons. Oh yes, not vision impaired, but low vision. You will hear about this during our conversation.   For the past 13 years, Bryan Bashin has been the CEO of the San Francisco Lighthouse for the Blind. He has proven to be quite an innovator due to his philosophical orientation concerning blindness. You will hear of his accomplishments.   Bryan announced his retirement from the Lighthouse earlier this year. His future plans are typical of Bryan. Come along with us and hear Bryan's story and then please give us a 5-star rating wherever you listen to this podcast episode.     About the Guest: Bryan Bashin, CEO, reports to the Board of Directors and supervises the directors of Communications, Development, Operations, Programs and Enchanted Hills Camp and Retreat. Mr. Bashin has served in this position since 2010. Mr. Bashin's extensive professional experience includes Executive Editor for the Center for Science and Reporting, Assistant Regional Commissioner for the United States Department of Education: Rehabilitation Services, and Executive Director of Society for the Blind in Sacramento. Mr. Bashin has been blind since college and from that time has dedicated a substantial part of his career to advocating for equality, access, training and mentorship for individuals who are blind or low vision. He serves or has served on numerous committees and organizations, including California Blind Advisory Committee, VisionServe Alliance, San Francisco State University's Paul K. Longmore Institute on Disability, World Blind Union, National Industries for the Blind, and California Agencies for the Blind and Visually Impaired.         About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes UM Intro/Outro  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Welcome to unstoppable mindset. And I am really excited today to have an opportunity to talk with Bryan Bashin, the CEO of the San Francisco Lighthouse for the Blind. And you will see why as we go forward. Bryan is a very interesting and engaging guy. I've known him for quite a while. And I think we've both known each other we like each other, don't we, Bryan?   Bryan Bashin  01:44 Yeah, we have traveled in the same paths. And we have been on the same side of the barricades.   Michael Hingson  01:51 And that's always a good thing. So you're doing well.   Bryan Bashin  01:57 I'm doing great. This is a this is a good time for me and Lighthouse after 13 years, thinking about sort of a joyous conclusion to a number of projects before I move on.   Michael Hingson  02:10 Wow. Well, that's always a good thing. Well, tell me a little bit about you before the lighthouse growing up and stuff like that, so people get to know about you a bit.   Bryan Bashin  02:20 Sure. The short version I grew up as a sighted boy started becoming blind when I was 12 became legally blind when I was a sophomore at UC Berkeley. And like all newly blind, low vision people tried to hide it for as long as possible, and really failed. I didn't have role models, then, like my Kingson. I didn't really know what was possible in blindness. That pivot came later in my life. And so I just did what a lot of low vision people do. Hide, try to pass all of that. So I did that in my early 20s. I started my career in journalism. I my first job out of Berkeley was at the CBS television affiliate in San Francisco KPI X, API X. Yes, Gen five and the news department there. And I worked there for a couple of years that I wanted to move up in the world. And I joined the channel 10, the CBS Benli a CBS affiliate in Sacramento, and I was higher up on that journalism,   Michael Hingson  03:32 and wrong and you move and you moved from five to 10.   Bryan Bashin  03:35 I did. I doubled. See. After after a few years in local broadcast news, television news, I thought I'm a little more serious person that and I wanted to go deeper. And so I quit my job and I started writing for newspapers, and then magazines, and specialized in science and public policy. So I did lots of work and environment, Space Science, energy usage, epidemiology. You know, for kind of curious guy like me, journalism was a really good fit because it fed all the things I want to learn about him. And I was in my 20s. Somewhere along the way, as I had less than less vision, I knew that I needed to get solutions. And I didn't know where those would come from, but I knew it involves people. But short version is almost 30 years ago. In a quiet time in my life. I just picked up some copies of the Braille monitor and started reading them. And in it, I found all kinds of stories about blind people doing amazing things. Things that I didn't think I could do as a person like travel where I wanted when I want it or efficiently use Computers, all that. So I went into a boot camp. It was then the fourth NFB Training Center. Actually it was in Sacramento. Just that the year that I needed it. It only lasted one year. The Marcelino center run by the California affiliate of the NFB, anyway, long story short, I threw myself into training, got training, and then had the most successful period in journalism I've ever had. And that's the first half of my working career.   Michael Hingson  05:33 Did you ever know mozzie? Marcelino?   Bryan Bashin  05:35 No, I didn't. He passed before the Senator that was named after him. That's right. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  05:41 He was one of the very active early members of the National Federation of the Blind of California and managed a lot of the legislative activities of the Federation. In Sacramento, if you went with him into the Capitol, everyone knew Mazie. Which, which is important.   Bryan Bashin  06:02 Yeah. Yeah, I certainly was living in Sacramento in the 90s. And his memory was an active presence, then. Well, I finished up my immersion training at the Marcelino center. Four years later, I was running the Society for the blind there in Sacramento. Having gotten the confidence, and aspiration, that I could do stuff there, Executive Director, retired after 33 years, and I interviewed and got the job. That's when I got my first taste of real service in the blindness community. Chance to like, think of a project, think of a problem, get funds for it, hire cool staff for it and do it. And for me, you know, I might have written an article in a magazine and a million people would read it, but I wouldn't meet any of them. And I wouldn't have that thing that we all love that community. So when I started working at society for the blind, that community was right there. And it was deeply gratifying. And so I started working on many, many projects. And I did that in Sacramento for six years, had a wild time with it. And then I was asked to apply in the US Department of Education, to be one of the regional commissioners in region nine for the Rehab Services Administration. So that was, that was really bittersweet to leave the Society for the blind, but I wanted to learn more. And suddenly, I found myself responsible for half a billion dollars in federal spending across all disabilities, and learning like a fire hose about the public rehabilitation system. And I did that until all the regional offices were closed by the administration. And I found myself for the first time in my working life, not knowing what I was going to do for a living. So I, I did some expert witnessing in court, I worked with a startup, I did some other things regarding direction, mentoring of blind people looking for employment. And then after 20 years, the director of the Lighthouse for the Blind, took a new job. And it was the first job I was hired for that I actually knew what I was doing when I came in, because I'd run another org like that. And that was 13 years ago.   Michael Hingson  08:36 There you are. What who was the commissioner when the offices closed?   Bryan Bashin  08:42 Yeah, well, it was Joanne Wilson until it was Joanne Yeah, yeah, it was Joanne Wilson, then   Michael Hingson  08:48 no, no, she necessarily had a lot of choices. But   Bryan Bashin  08:51 well, that's a long story. She used everything in her power to oppose this. But it was it was at a higher level that was made. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  09:04 So you've been at the lighthouse 13 years. And tell me a little bit about what it was like when you started and why did you decide to go to the lighthouse?   Bryan Bashin  09:19 You know, one thing that I can say is that my predecessor, had been prudent with funds. And so this was an agency that had good amount of money in the bank, like $40 million. I came from society for the blind. When I got there. We had six weeks of revenue. And we grew that and made it more stable. But I was attracted to the lighthouse because it was a storied organization. It had been around for, you know, 100 years. It owned this amazing camp in Napa that I'll talk about. It had the bones of a really great Oregon As a nation, and I thought I could do something with it. And I came there and I first saw the headquarters building then across from the symphony. And I thought, there's not enough places here to teach. There's not enough public spaces down. I have things happen. It was just the lighthouse had outgrown its its place. And I thought, oh, here we go. Again, I done a capital campaign in Sacramento to get its new building. Now, I'm going to have to do this again in San Francisco. But we looked at that and we thought, it's got to be close to transit. It's got to be in San Francisco, got to have cool places for people to work to ennoble the workforce not to be a dark hole windowless, undistinguished former garage, which was the old, old building, we found a place in the end, after many different things, we found a place right on top on top of the civic center BART station. And through a partnership and some other things we were able, I was able to convince the board to take this leap. And they did. And five years ago, six years ago, now, we occupied our new headquarters, which really has made us a place where people want to come and work and convene and hold events. It really now has the feel of a center.   Michael Hingson  11:32 Chris, the other thing that happened for the for the lighthouse was you got a pretty significant capital infusion along the way.   Bryan Bashin  11:40 Yeah, a little bit. I would do want people to know that this idea for a new building, the search for the Board's agreeing to do it and agreeing to buy it happened all before the big request, right? So we did, we made all that happen. In December and January, January 2014. Five months later, out of the blue, we got the first letter, understanding that we were going to be receiving receiving a request, that turned out to be the largest request in the history of American blindness to an individual $130 million. It turned out. And that allowed so much of what happened after to be possible.   Michael Hingson  12:31 Right. And that was what I was thinking it wasn't so much the building, but then you could really put into practice the vision that you were creating. That's right. That's right. So how, how has the lighthouse changed in over, let's say the last eight years since 2014?   Bryan Bashin  12:52 Yeah, I think I think I could say, ambition and reach and kind of audaciousness some things are pretty well known. We launched the Holman prize for blind ambition, it's a world prize, we've had, it's getting close to 1000 applicants over the seven years we've had the homerun prize. Those applicants come from every continent, maybe I haven't aggregated all of them. But it wouldn't surprise me to say 40 countries or so have applied. And if you go on YouTube and go to home and price.org. And look, you're going to see what blind people are saying they their dreams are from all over the world. And you cannot think about blindness the same way when you see people in rural Nepal or Africa or an urban Europe, talk about what's important to them. There is no real public way to aggregate all these things other than what we've done thus far. And so that's the kind of audaciousness that has come up in the last eight years. But it's been across everything.   Michael Hingson  14:07 What is the homerun prize? Exactly.   Bryan Bashin  14:10 Prom homerun prize is an annual prize awarded to three people each year by independent jury of blind people that the lighthouse convenes none of those juries are Lighthouse employees. The purpose of the prize is to show great growth and ambition in anything. It's not necessarily a project to do good in the world for blind people or though it can be it could be personal growth, like rowing a boat across the Bosphorus or climbing a mountain or organizing something that was never organized before that kind of thing. We award 320 $5,000 awards, and the price has been amazingly popular with hundreds of 1000s of views about blind people on our website and on YouTube. I'm happy to say that our partner Waymo, is now sponsoring one of the prizes at $25,000.   Michael Hingson  15:11 That is pretty exciting. Yeah. And I've I've watched it through the years and it's it is absolutely amazing and wonderful to see the the different attitudes and philosophies and as you said, dreams that blind people have, because most of the time, we're not encouraged.   Bryan Bashin  15:31 Yeah, most of the time people settle. This is, this is really, beyond mere skills that any blind organization teaches. And I don't mean to derogate them, the skills are essential. We can't do anything without skills. But they're not enough. Somehow my you got the confidence to be a captain of your own ship, metaphorically speaking. That's what got you out of the World Trade Center. That's what got you into business in science and everything else. We want to we this is the this is the mission that any Blind Agency really needs to focus on. Beyond skills. How do you teach confidence? How do you teach what Jacobus tenBroek said that we have a right to live in the world to be at that table, that we are not an embarr and a barren sea in the human condition. We're part of the human condition. And so getting that deep knowledge, something that the late James avec said, not just knowing it in your head, but in your heart, that It's respectable to be blind. And all of that that's, that's the best agencies get at that as well.   Michael Hingson  16:49 We as as a class, need to be more in the conversation and it isn't going to happen unless we demand it. You know, it's it's interesting. We celebrated Global Accessibility Awareness Day last, what Thursday, and later in the year, we'll be celebrating some other events regarding disabilities. What amazes me is even with the visibility that's happened so far, it never seems to hit any of the mainstream television news. Casts or talk shows, the I don't see anyone celebrating Disability Employment Awareness Month, or anything relating to disability awareness, like we see African American history or LGBTQ pride, awareness and so on. Why is it that we're just not still included? Even though even though according to the CDC, up to 25%, of all Americans have some sort of a disability. And we'll of course leave out like dependents, which takes in everyone else, but nevertheless.   Bryan Bashin  18:06 Well, you know, we live in a different as a longtime journalist, we live in a different journalistic culture now. And so what triumphs is narrative, not policy. What triumphs is something that gets is clickbait. Something that gets you emotionally. And I won't say that there, there haven't been good stories. The lighthouses then, Board Chair Chris Downey, who you know, is, as one of only a handful of practicing blind architects got 15 minutes on 60 minutes, one of their most popular episodes been rebroadcast four or five times now. That is a powerful narrative. So we need more of them. I really do think that in any state, any blind organization has stories, just like Chris is just as powerful. You know, our job is to actually be out there relationally with journalists so that they can understand what the stories are. But it's not going to be from a press release, or some some kind of awareness month. It's going to have to be the personal connections that we have with journalists so that we can wind up pitching stories.   Michael Hingson  19:27 Well, it's the usual thing. What it really means is we need to tell the story.   Bryan Bashin  19:35 That's right. As soon as it becomes a story about them. We lose, huh? Yeah.   Michael Hingson  19:41 Yeah, we need we need to be out there and tell the story. And you're right. We need to tell it in a way that will click with people and interest people. But I think that that certainly is something that can be done and we We also collectively need to understand that we need to tell the story and not be shy about it.   Bryan Bashin  20:08 That's right. Yeah, that's right.   Michael Hingson  20:11 And I think all too often, we tend to be shy and we don't want to, to be out there talking about I remember early on after September 11, we got pretty visible in the news. And it was because really of me contacting Guide Dogs for the Blind, just to say, we got out because people from Guide Dogs had seen us in the world transip Trade Center, they've visited us. And I joined guide dogs in about a year afterward. And there was a lot of visibility interviews in the media. By that time, we had been on Larry King Live three times. And on one of the guide dog lists, somebody said, Well, he's just a meteor media whore. And a number of people fortunately reacted, I did not, but a number of people said, What are you talking about? He's out there telling the story. And that is, in reality, the case is that somebody needs to and we all should be out there telling the story saying we're better than people think.   Bryan Bashin  21:12 That's right. That is really true. You know, there's an inherent tension between this knee that you just said about, we need to tell the story because otherwise Hollywood is going to tell the story about us. And the need, you know what the most radical thing is, it's the average blind person doing their average job, unremarkably, and without fanfare and attention, that is the revolution. And so, you know, why should Why should every blind person feel obligated to write a book or do a story. And yet, we have a responsibility as a you have taken to say, This is my life experience, people will learn from it. And so I'll do the hard work to get it out there.   Michael Hingson  21:59 But the very fact that other people are just going to work, and trying to go to work, doing the job, and trying to even get better at doing the job is as much if not more of the story as anything else.   Bryan Bashin  22:14 That's the real revolution. And that's the world we want to help bring about.   Michael Hingson  22:20 So I am curious about something. I believe it's been attributed to you. Scary already. But but I've I've adopted it. People say that we're blind or visually impaired, and I object to the concept of visually impaired because I've always thought I looked the same. I don't like vision impaired because I think I got lots of vision, although as I love to say, but I don't see so good. But I can accept vision impaired. What do you think about that, that concept of the, the terminology like that? And where do words matter in what we do?   Bryan Bashin  23:00 words do matter. And every every generation needs to own and invent words that are relevant to them. And so although I work in a building that says Lighthouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired, I've come to see that word visually impaired is actually ablest. It means that we are being defined by what we cannot do, we have impairment of vision, we are not a normal part of society. You know, I think the more neutral and non ablest way to construct it is just to talk about people who are blind, or have low vision. Yeah, so that's, that's a positive way. It's neutral way. All these other things over the years, skirting around the word blind, as if that was something we shouldn't be proud of, are talking about the proud people with low vision, instead of looking at them as just simply a characteristic they have, they have low vision. We look at them as impairment or other other ways in which they're, quote, not normal. So that's why words matter. And we in our publications at Lighthouse tried to use a modern language to talk about blindness.   Michael Hingson  24:19 And I do like the concept of low vision. If you talk to a person who is deaf, and you say hearing impaired, you're apt to be shot because that is absolutely unacceptable, deaf or hard of hearing, which is the same concept.   Bryan Bashin  24:34 Yeah. And of course, you always want to talk to the people ourselves, about how we want to be caught. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  24:43 Unfortunately, I think there's still all too many of us that have not really thought it through. But I think as people learn and recognize that we do have the same right to live in the world and are demanding it more, more and more people will wreck denies the value of something like blind or a person who happens to be low vision.   Bryan Bashin  25:05 There are agencies around the country who have steadily taken the word blind out of their name. I think it's a profound mistake, as if who we are needs to be euphemized or just lately swept under the rug. I am a proud blind person because I've been around other blind people who haven't want to euphemized who we are. But yet we have agencies around the country with hundreds of millions of dollars who think that they don't want the word blind in their name. I think the first step in proper rehabilitation is to say who you are.   Michael Hingson  25:46 And do it with pride. Yep. So well, and just to carry that on a little bit more, Dr. Ken Jernigan passed down the late Dr. Ken Jernigan, past president of the National Federation of the Blind, I think came up with the best definition of blindness of all, which is basically if you are eyesight is decreased to the point where you have to use alternatives to full eyesight to accomplish things, then you should consider yourself blind and there's nothing wrong with that.   Bryan Bashin  26:17 Yeah, we're all in this together. Just like, I can't speak for that community. But it's been 150 years since African Americans blacks would talk about various grades and gradations of, of their, their heritage. Just part of the movement now as it should be,   Michael Hingson  26:40 as it should be. And it's unfortunate that it takes some of the kinds of things that it has done to raise awareness for black lives, if you will. But hopefully we're making some progress, although the politicians tend to be the biggest obstructionist to a lot of that big surprise   Bryan Bashin  27:01 there, Mike.   Michael Hingson  27:05 Yeah, it is amazing. As I love to tell people I I try not to be political on this podcast. So I'm an equal opportunity abuser, you know, I'm, I'm with Mark Twain. Congress is that grand old benevolent asylum for the helpless and that's all there is to it. So we can we can abuse them all. It's it's a whole lot more fun. Well, so you have really made some evolutionary changes in the lighthouse. You mentioned enchanted Hills, which I first learned about when I was here in Southern California as a teenager, did not go to Enchanted hills. But I went to what that time, what was the foundation for the junior blinds camp camp Bloomfield, and but I've heard and kept up with enchanted Hills throughout the years and the camp had some challenges a few years ago with the fires and so on. That that took place up in Northern California, and you've been really working to address a lot of that. Tell us a little if you would about enchanted hills. Yeah. Where it was, where it came from, and and where it's going? Well,   Bryan Bashin  28:17 a blind woman rose Resnick founded it in 1950, because she wanted blind people, blind youth and adults to be active participants in nature. At the time, most blind folks went to schools for the blind, urban and restrictive. And Rose had a great experience growing up back east, with camps for the blind, it was a liberation for her. There were no camps when in outwest, for the blind, he founded the first one that we've had at Lighthouse for 72 years now. Why is it important? That mentorship to see cool blind people who are just a few years ahead of you who are owning their lives, you can't learn this in a classroom. You've got to hang out with people, it takes time. It's like that, that same mentorship, you'll see in a convention, a blank convention. The power of that is you got to week, well, you've got a summer at camp, and you've got a summer with people where you can actually have time to finish your conversations and to get lost and try to grow in different ways and fail and try again. And this is a huge and powerful part. What any camp for the blind is there are only a handful left in the United States. So in 2017, those Napa fires we watched as the fires got closer and closer to camp we evacuated and then watch for week as the fires crept closer, we didn't know if camp would survive. And when we finally were able to get back in camp, we found that half of the buildings had burned the old camp deep in the Redwood Forest. We have 311 acres there. It's an enormous P and valuable and beautiful piece of property. And soon after, first we were relieved that nobody was hurt. But after our team realized like this was the opportunity that had waited for three generations, how could we reimagine camp? What are the things now in 2022 that bind people wish they had that we didn't have before. So yes, of course, we have the same all all American camp.   Bryan Bashin  30:44 But we're rebuilding camp to be environmentally friendly, universally accessible, every building at camp every every building at El is will be wheelchair accessible. Every watt of power and use will not be through trucked in propane or hydro or fossil fuels, but be solar generated with our solar canopy over our park parking lot. Every building will be heated and insulated. So is changing from summer camp to a year round place where up to 220 people can stay and learn and form community, both informal things like classes, retreats, and all of that. But informally now, when we reopen, you'll be able to grow, go up to camp with a group of your friends and 20 people, family reunion, whatever you can cook for yourself, or you can take advantage of our full time kitchen staff and all of that. Imagine a blind Asilomar a conference center that is accessible, networked with everything from braille embossers, to the latest tech stuff. That's what camp is and every last part of it, please touch, please use our woodworking stuff, learn how to do ceramics, get to learn how to own and care for a horse. Get in that boat and Sue ads and, and row, go swim, go do arts, go do music and our wonderful new Redwood Grove theater, all of that stuff. So this was the inspiration when when the camp burned five years ago, we were able to get all these buildings on the master plan with a county, we found a contractor we're halfway through the rebuilding all of lower camp now you can see those buildings, the foundations are poured, the roofs are up we're putting in Windows this week. And when we were done, we'll have this amazing, beautiful village in the Redwoods where people can stroll and accessible paths, no guide ropes anymore, by the way, accessible paths. And as you go around camp, you'll be able to be just within hailing distance of other people, people you may not know but should know. So half of the program at camp and why it produces 40 50,000 hours each summer of people contacting people half that program is just that, not what we're talking at you about but people that you meet and form lifelong bonds.   Michael Hingson  33:31 And that's a whole different idea for a camp in general, but it is really creating community and people will leave with I would think lots of memories they never thought they would get.   Bryan Bashin  33:46 You know one of the key features that has been the hallmark of the last 13 years is that we usually have 20 counselors and another half dozen counselors in training. Three quarters or up to 90% of those counselors are now blind, or have low vision. No camp hardly in the country does that there are a lot of camps in which everybody in power. Every director and every assistant director and every counselor, they're all sighted. They're all very well meaning and giving. But where's the mentorship there? Where's the role modeling? So in Jannah Hills is different. The overwhelming majority of our counselors and counselors and training are blind. Our staff and area leaders are overwhelmingly blind as well. Because this is part of the purpose of camp to be able to meet people who are in charge of their own lives and a part of a community   Michael Hingson  34:45 and that's as good as it can possibly get. How does the the camp then it's it's a separate entity but it's part of the lighthouse. How did the the two connect what kind of value does Is the lighthouse itself bringing to the camp and vice versa?   Bryan Bashin  35:03 Yeah, we're all one organization. But increasingly, because of the new construction, we use camp as a retreat for people who want to go deep into their blindness. So for people who are newly blind, or for people who have been blind a while, and now have decided it's time to do something about it, we have an initial immersion called Changing vision changing lives, people go to camp. And there, they take their first steps, sometimes, first time they ever put a white cane in their hands, or their first introduction to what a computer could do. All these kinds of things. It's a deep dive and initial dive, immersion to whet people's appetites for the real hard work that comes after camp where they're going to put in time to learn skills of blindness. But before you start doing skills, you have to have the why, why are we doing that, and you have to have met a dozen or two dozen blind people who are just using those skills. So you're not learning that as an abstraction. Camp is wonderful that way. So the teachers who teach edtech and oh nm, and braille, and, you know, independent living and home repair, and all, these are the same people, whether they're at our headquarters in San Francisco, or they're in a special retreat in Napa. That's what we're going to be doing more and more of around the around the year. Same thing is true with our new program for little for blind infants and toddlers, lighthouse, little learners is an early intervention program. From across northern California, we have built camp in part to be a wonderful place for families of blind infants and toddlers to come together. Almost every family that has a newborn who's blind is utterly unprepared, and is so hungry for information. And of course, as you know, if you get it right, your child grows up and does anything that she or he wants. But those are key years. And so our family cabins now are built so that infants and toddlers, and then later on young kids will have time with their families before it's time for them to go off to camp individually, when they get into the middle years at a teens.   Michael Hingson  37:33 You mentioned the blindness conventions like the National Federation of the Blind convention, and it brought to mind something that I think about every time I go to a convention or know that a convention is coming up, especially with the NFB because of the the way that the organization has handled conventions, there is nothing like watching a five year old who suddenly has a cane put in their hand. And they're given a little bit of cane travel lessons over a very short period of time at the convention. And then they're dragging their parents all around the convention hotel, that the parents usually can't keep up and the kids are just going a mile a second.   Bryan Bashin  38:13 Yeah, that is, that's what we all want. We want that aha moment, like that. And parents are. So when they're new in the game, it's not just talking about the best ophthalmologist, although that's important and the best stimulation and the best this and that. They're also looking at those counselors and counselors in training and seeing their kids in 15 years. And they're just seeing competent blind people. Give them the sense about what's possible and why. And that that is another unspoken role of conventions, or in retreats like camp where you have the time to put into what is like the big change in life. Your blindness is not just something you do superficially, you got to dive in camp helps with that.   Michael Hingson  39:07 It's a characteristic blindness is simply a characteristic. It is something that we all have as part of our beings. And I think it's an enhancement because it allows us should we take advantage of it to have a significantly different perspective on part of life than most people have? And it gives us a broader and more open perspective, which is as good as it gets.   Bryan Bashin  39:38 Absolutely. You know, we're in an age which is supposedly celebrating diversity and all of that, well the diversity that we bring to the to the human experience is profound. And you know, we we will celebrate our intersectionalities with all the other human diversities. Are we are, we are good to live in an age, which doesn't sort of characterize and other, but works or at least seeks efficiently to include.   Michael Hingson  40:13 Sometimes it's a little more superficial than we probably would like. And there are things happening in our modern technological era that are a challenge. For example, one of the examples that I often give is nowadays, there are so many television commercials that are totally graphic pictorial, they may have music, but absolutely no verbiage to the commercial. So a number of us are left out of understanding them. And of course, graphics are so easy to produce. But what the people who produce those commercials, it seems to me don't realize is that by not having verbiage, and having meaningful and full content, verbally presented in the commercials, they're not just leaving out us, but they're leaving out anyone who gets up from their couch or chair, when the commercial comes on to go get a drink. They'll never know what the commercials were about, they're missing a true dimension of access to all it seems to me.   Bryan Bashin  41:19 Well, you put your finger on a key aspect of our culture, which is we live in an age of screens, great. Screens are ubiquitous and cheap. And so we're, we're in a in an age now where it's sort of post linguistic almost, that the ability to manipulate and to show successions of images, capture, you owe 90 some percent of people most of the time, but it does a great disservice to the abilities of human beings of all sorts to appreciate. And it kind of cheapens the subtlety and discourse, I think, you know, we this this ability, words are able to convey a universe of experiences in just a few syllables. Pictures, not so much, and not so standard.   Michael Hingson  42:19 Someone said, I don't recall who but I read it somewhere. Maybe a picture is worth 1000 words. But it takes up a whole lot more memory. I love that. It's an it's so true. Yeah. And we, we really need to recognize collectively the value of challenging and using all of our senses, it's so important to do that, and no scent should be left out. Now, we haven't figured out a way yet to transmit, smell and taste through the television system. And that may be a long ways away. But we certainly have other senses that we should be using. And that isn't, and shouldn't just be screens. But hopefully we can get that discourse to occur and get, get people to change, maybe a little bit about what they're thinking and see the value in that change again.   Bryan Bashin  43:21 Well, you've been a pioneer in this. And as things emerge, I know Mike Kingston is going to be part of it.   Michael Hingson  43:29 Well, it's been fun to to be involved with some of the technologies. You know, for me, it started with Ray Kurzweil. And then last decade was IRA, which has certainly been a product that has made a significant difference for a lot of people but other butter products along the way being involved in some of the refreshable braille displays and, and a lot of people don't realize how easy it is in some senses to produce Braille today because refreshable braille displays means I can take any file, any like ASCII file or a Word file, and put it in a medium that I can import into a Braille display and suddenly read that document. That's, that's pretty new.   Bryan Bashin  44:15 I think we are just now on the cusp of, of having critical mass in a refreshable Braille display that's got enough pixels to be useful as an image producer, and then ways to quickly and sort of economically produce those images. Yeah, Lighthouse has a unit MATLAB they have a group called touching the news. And here every week or two, there's a news graphic, the map of Ukraine during the war, the what is that helicopter on perseverance look like? Those kinds of things, the ephemera and the news of our society, the ability to get those quickly out. If you have a Braille display or a Braille embosser is going to really we're almost at the time when culture will pivot, and 61,000 Blind K through 12 errs in American schools will be able to get new and fresh material all the time, and compare it or look at the output of an oscilloscope in real time, and change and vary and act in a lab accordingly. So the efforts now to make real time expressible refreshable. screen displays are amazing and so important.   Michael Hingson  45:39 The other thing that I would hope as we get into more of a virtual real world virtual reality world, is that we would do more with sound binaural sound which is easy to produce, which truly with a set of headphones allows you to hear sound coming from any direction. And actually can help immerse all gamers in games rather than it just being from the screen. But if they do it right, it certainly would make a lot of games more accessible to us than are available today.   Bryan Bashin  46:12 If you've heard a good binaural recording of something, it can be terrifying. The lighthouse work with this group called The World According to sound to produce several dozen binaural shows about the rich experience that blind people have every day. And you can find those online. We worked with Chris and Sam, who just did splendid work for us about how we live how we how we go around what we notice the subtleties and richness in our lives. So there's there's importance for that. And then later, if you look ahead a few years, the metaverse and the idea of group connections, because what we're doing now Mike, on Zoom is not going to be just like a pandemic, Blip. This is the way people are going to interact. And we want this to be richer. I want to be in a room where I can hear who's on the left of the conference table and who's on the right. Right, I want to be able to face them in the three dimensional view on that screen. It's coming. It's coming quickly. And we need to be part of what MATA is doing as they may be the standard or other people may develop other standards. But this is around the corner.   Michael Hingson  47:33 And the technology is really here to do it. It's it is a matter of making it a priority and deciding to do it in such a way that will keep the costs down. And that isn't all that hard to do. Yeah. So for you, you are I think you have been appointed to the Ability One commission.   Bryan Bashin  47:58 That's right, President Biden appointed me last July. And it's been a wild ride ever since   Michael Hingson  48:04 tell us about the commission and what you're doing with it and so on.   Bryan Bashin  48:09 Well, this commission was set up during the FDR time in 1938. And it was designed originally to provide some way that blind people, and then later on, people with other significant disabilities could find work and an age where there was almost no work. The employment rate of blind people in 1938 was I don't know two or 3%, or something like that. So it was a groundbreaking bit of legislation in the 30s. But over the years, it became a place where blind people worked in non integrated settings. And some people call them sheltered workshops. There were many blind people who are earning less than minimum wage because of a loophole in the law there and all of that. This has been a fight for the last decades to eliminate the sub minimum wage, and also now to seek blind people not working in silos without the benefit of the wider world only working in a place with people with disabilities. But to integrate and find opportunities for that same federal contracting federal contracts federal government buys, what six or $700 billion worth of stuff every year. This ability one program uses about 4 billion of the 600 billion to provide employment, people will make things the lighthouse itself. We have a social enterprise we make environmentally sound cleaning compounds and disinfecting compounds using sort of state of the art Technology, we got an EPA Safer Choice Award for how benign our stuff is, instead of the other harsh ammonia and caustic chemicals. Anyway. So on this commission, the job is how much wiggle room do we have to provide integrated employment now, you know, if you're working in making airplane parts, only with blind people in a separate building, and meanwhile, Boeing has people doing the exact same job. along with everything else, and the glitz and glamour of working for international big company. Why shouldn't blind people be part of that, instead of the sort of set aside, it was a great idea in the 1930s and 40s, and 50s. Now it's time to change. So the first step of the change is our strategic plan. And we've rolled out the draft strategic plan, we have had eight or maybe more now community meetings about it. The public engagement with this change is 500%, more than we had in the past with the AbilityOne. Commission. We we have launched this strategic plan, I sure it'll be codified in upcoming weeks, when it is over five years, we're going to both look at ways that we can get competitive integrated employment experiences as much as we can. And that may require that we open up the Javits, Wagner eau de Act, the legislation in order to maybe change some possibilities to increase competitive integrated employment. Because in the 30s, it just said employment, that's our charge. The idea of competitive integrated employment for blind people, or people with significant that was science fiction, and FDR, Stein. Now it's something you and I have both lived. And why shouldn't the 45,000 people in the program right now have that opportunity? So that's my work in the AbilityOne. Commission, to bring the fruits of federal contracting to the hundreds of federal contractors, and let them benefit from a workforce that includes diversity of all kinds, including people who are blind,   Michael Hingson  52:28 is the tide turning so that we can see the day that the Javits Wagner, eau de Act, Section 14, see will actually go by the wayside, and we'll be able to truly address the issue of competitive employment.   Bryan Bashin  52:44 Yes, we have taken many steps along that line, the main step is that organizations that hold such certificates may not be allowed, in the very short term it very shortly to compete for new contracts. So the cost of paying subminimum h is going to be very expensive for people who wish to get more contracts. This is in process now. We are not going to, you know, pull the emergency cord and throw people out of work, who are now working under these programs, but new contracts, and new opportunities are going to be you know, bias towards competitive integrated employment. And, you know, on the blind side, there are no organizations in the blindness side of Ability One paying sub minimum wages Now, none. That's that's already ended on the significant disability sides. I think the number is around 3000. People still are working on legacy contracts like that. We expect that if I talk to you in a couple of years, Mike, that will be gone.   Michael Hingson  54:02 Well, and historically, I think when the act was originally established, it was done with good intentions. And maybe it wasn't as five sided as it could be. But as I understood the original Act, the non competitive employment centers were supposed to be training centers to get people prepared to and then out into the more competitive world of employment. But it morphed and evolved over the years to something different than that.   Bryan Bashin  54:33 It is and if legally, if you look, there's nothing in the ACT about training. It's just about employment. That's that was the mindset in 1938. Yeah. Now, of course, that's what we want. That's what we want to celebrate. We want to give the nonprofit agencies credit for training people and bringing them out into competitive employment. We think if we open up the act, we want to strike threat. So those agencies who are successful at getting people trained up and out, should be rewarded for that.   Michael Hingson  55:08 That makes perfect sense. What is the pandemic done to the whole rehabilitation system? And what do you see happening as we come out of it?   Bryan Bashin  55:19 This is not a happy topic.   Michael Hingson  55:22 Yeah, it is a challenge.   Bryan Bashin  55:25 The the number of people who are just enrolled in VR across the country has been slashed a third to a half those those people part of that is because VR with its three and a half billion dollars worth of funding, doesn't find, you know, the homemaker outcome, which is basically blind, independent living training, that's now no longer legal. So those people who went to VR thinking they could learn how to do certain things. But without a vocational goal, that is not not any, any more part of the public rehab system. So some people went away for that. But I think the larger question and it's kind of profound is that we've been through two years of a pandemic, after, after a century of saying to blind people get out there, learn to travel, be at everybody's table, take risks. And now we've had two years and more of stay in your place. It's a dangerous world. And our you know, my observation is all of our skills are rusty, are on him skills are rusty, our social skills are rusty. And everybody in the world will say, Oh, you're blind is easy to stay at home, look from look for work at home and all of this, but we lose if we're not in the room. And so the bottom line is that the pandemic has caused, I think a lot of us to take a giant step back in our social integration and just our horizons. Through the pandemic, I watched as my sighted friends could just get in the car and go where they wanted safely. Every time you and I want to go somewhere, Mike, we have to get into a conveyance with a person of unknown infectivity status. This is the nature code, we can't just Uber ourselves to a park without the sense like, okay, we're taking a controlled risk. This is why a future of autonomous vehicles is so great, no guide dog denials, no coughing driver, who may or may not be wearing a mask these days, technology can be our friend, if the technologists start considering our needs.   Michael Hingson  57:53 Well, and autonomous vehicles are, are definitely in our future and the whole concept of opposing them. Anyone who does we're, we're seeing someone who just doesn't have a lot of vision, because the reality is that they're, as you would say, right around the corner. I think some of the things that have happened with Tesla vehicles is unfortunate, especially when, in reality, they were probably not using the technology correctly. And that causes many accidents is anything. I have a friend who owns a Tesla, I actually drove it down the I 15 toward San Bernardino a few years ago. But I called him one day and he told me he had an accident with his Tesla. Now he had driven some race cars in the past and he said that there was a situation where a car was coming at him. He had the Tesla in copilot mode and was monitoring. But when this vehicle was coming at him as a racecar driver, he said my inclination is to speed up and get away from it. The car wanted to slow down and he said I overrode the copilot and we had an accident. I should have let the car do   Bryan Bashin  59:14 it. Your way there. I can't let that pass. Mike. You were in the driver's seat of a Tesla on Interstate 15.   Michael Hingson  59:24 Absolutely, why not? No, he was he was there of course. And but I had my hands on the wheel and we had it in copilot mode and I could feel it moving. It was a pretty straight run. But we did it for about 15 minutes. And then I said no, I don't think that the Highway Patrol would be happy with us if we kept that going.   Bryan Bashin  59:44 I don't think the statute of limitations quite expired on that one bike so   Michael Hingson  59:50 well, they gotta prove it now. I don't know it's been more than two years and nothing and nothing happened. I will wasn't in the car with the accident, we had a completely uneventful time, I just want to point out   Bryan Bashin  1:00:06 now, but these, these technologies, we must be pressing the companies for Level Five accessibility. That means from the time you walk down your friend steps to the car waiting there for the time you get to your destinations, front steps, you're in control the whole time. Yeah, it would be heartbreaking to have legislation that allows less than that. So that yeah, you have to like drive until you're on the freeway, and then you can do autonomous driving, that would lock us all out. That would mean this whole technology is useless for us.   Michael Hingson  1:00:44 And that would be useless legislation, it wouldn't solve the big problem that the autonomous vehicle can bring us. I'm a firm believer, and we got to get the concept of driving out of the hands of drivers. Because, as far as I'm concerned, using a Tesla or not the way most people drive on the road, I would certainly be able to do as well as they do.   Bryan Bashin  1:01:07 Absolutely. I wrote in, I wrote an autonomous vehicle in San Francisco last summer. And I felt it in control, confident, cautious, but it had a different sort of feel in that car and felt like I noticed like in San Francisco, if you want to make a left turn, a sighted driver would sort of drive into the intersection, start making the turn. And then once you're made the 90 degree turn, then accelerate the autonomous driver drives into the intersection and starts accelerating in the intersection intersection, knowing full well that it knows and has decided where it wants to go. So if it was more confidently powering into the term than a human one would do. I found that interesting.   Michael Hingson  1:02:05 It is, and I just am firmly convinced that we will make the road so much more safer if we take not the decision making but the whole concept of driving away from so many people who haven't learned to do it. Well, it does mean that we need to program the technology appropriately. And well. We're still on the cusp, but it's coming and it's going to be here sooner than we probably think.   Bryan Bashin  1:02:36 Yeah, well, the main thing is that all there may be 50 Different groups five, zero, looking at autonomous driving, it's turning out to be a much harder technical problem than people were saying just a few years back. But we need to be in those early design phases. You know, my car right now has a radio that I can't use. Yeah, because it needs a touchscreen. I mean, if they can't get that, right, what about the ability to change directions, at a stop on a whim, respond to a safety emergency, we need to let the folks know, all the ways that we need to be involved and not like was one set of the Mercury astronauts, we're not just spamming again.   Michael Hingson  1:03:25 Right? Well, and the the Tesla, for example, is so disappointing, because everything is really touchscreen driven. So I could deal with the wheel and deal with the car once someone else completely shut it up. And there is some ability to do voice activation, if you do the right things with the touchscreen first. And the bottom line is I couldn't work the radio, I couldn't do anything that a passenger should normally be able to do. Because it's all touchscreen driven. And it really takes away, it seems to me from the driving experience, even because I have to focus on the touchscreen. I can't be watching the road as well as a sighted driver.   Bryan Bashin  1:04:10 Yeah, this is not inherent to blindness. It's just smart design that's inclusive. And those are fun projects. And that's when you get blind people, engineers, by engineers, sighted engineers together on a problem that is a beautiful Association and it produces really great results.   Michael Hingson  1:04:31 I'm remember I remember some of the early discussions that we had when we were working on the pedestrian enhancement Safety Act and we worked with the National Association of Automobile Manufacturers and eventually got a law passed that said that quiet cars and so on needed to make a noise although we're still really waiting for a standard so that there is a sound that hybrid cars and totally quiet cars produce and it's taking way To long, unfortunately, but still working together, we were able to educate and get some people to really imagine a lot more than they thought that they would. And we're making progress, but it sometimes it just seems like it's very slow. Well, let me ask you one last thing, what are you going to do when you leave the lighthouse, you announced that you're, you're wanting to move on. And I know that there is now a search to find a, a person who will step into your shoes, which I think is going to be an impossibility. But what are you going to do?   Bryan Bashin  1:05:37 Well, I love I love the search, I love that lighthouse is going to have a long, open, transparent process to find that right person. So that will be wonderful to cheer them on when they show up. But for me, I am a guy who likes learning. And I've had 13 years of heavy responsibility running a large agency, I want to be in places where I have more of a beginner mind. That could be journalism, that could be advocacy, it will be advocacy. That will be in design, like we were just talking about autonomous vehicles or other interesting projects. I would like to be in those places, whether it be corporate boards, or design Charettes, or architecture, any of these things were blind people haven't been before, to sort of bring people together to make really exquisite designs, and beautiful human centered outcomes. So whether it's working with the Ability One Commission, or working on contract with companies that have a problem to design, whether it's it's talking truth to power, and making sure that our extended community has is protected and safe and supported in Congress in the state house. You'll find me in all those places.   Michael Hingson  1:07:04 Well, I hope that as you move on and do things that you will come back and talk with us and keep us posted and give us a chance to learn from you and and maybe give you things that you can use as well. So I hope that this won't be the only time we hear from you on this podcast.   Bryan Bashin  1:07:22 It's always a pleasure, Mike, it's in conversation with you. I learned so much. And I feel we are part of that same community.   Michael Hingson  1:07:30 How can people learn about you, the lighthouse, and so on?   Bryan Bashin  1:07:35 Well, our websites always a good place to start WWW dot Lighthouse dash s f.org.   Michael Hingson  1:07:44 And everything is there, there are so many different programs that the lighthouse offers. And there's so much that all of us can learn from the various adventures and programs that the Lighthouse has. So I hope that you'll all go visit WWW dot Lighthouse dash s s.org and peruse the pages. And if you're able to do so maybe consider volunteering or being involved in some way. And I hope that you'll make that happen. If people want to reach out to me, we are always available. As I tell people every week you can reach me via email at Michael H I at accessabe.com or through the podcast page which is www dot Michael hingson M I C H A E L H I N G S O N.com/podcast. And once you finish listening to this, please give us a five star rating. We love those five star ratings and, and Brian, hopefully you'll listen and give us a five star rating when this comes up.   Bryan Bashin  1:08:46 Oh, I'm already pre sold on this one. You're also welcome to leave my email address. I'll go folks on on the website or here. It's simply b Bastion b ba Shi n at Lighthouse stash fsf.org.   Michael Hingson  1:09:03 So reach out to Brian and I'm sure that discussions will be interesting. And as I said we want to hear of your adventures as you go forward. Thank you, Michael. Thanks very much for being here. And to all of you. We'll see you next week on unstoppable mindset.   UM Intro/Outro  1:09:23 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

For the complete show including notes, links, photos and more; please visit and also consider subscribing to our free Substack | bellinghampodcast.substack.comWatches & Horology Shinola - Though dinged by the FTC for using Swiss and other imported parts, the watches are still fully assembled in the United States, with other products and materials sourced through manufacturing partners in Ann Arbor and Wisconsin.Fine Timepiece Solutions- https://www.ftsusa.us/ameriquartz/ ARES - Stanwood Wa. - https://www.areswatches.com/WEISS watches -https://weisswatchcompany.com/Vortic Watches. Colorado - https://vorticwatches.com/Timex “American Documents” https://www.timex.com/browse/collections/american-documents/ ADPT Strap - https://wornandwound.com/introducing-adpt-strap-american-made-nylon-watch-strap/ EA8 Leathergoods - https://www.instagram.com/ea8/Electronics and EquipmentU-Turn Audio - https://uturnaudio.com/EDC Leatherman - Portland OR - https://www.leatherman.com/homeCRKT CEO - Tualitin OR - https://www.crkt.com/ceo-flipper-blackout.htmlSKILCRAFT Products https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skilcraft50 years ‘68 - ‘18 https://nib.org/sites/default/files/pen/pen-index.html SKILCRAFT is the registered trade name of the National Industries for the Blind (NIB)is the brand name for quality products manufactured by people who are blind or have a visual impairment. Government and commercial customers can choose from a wide range of thousands of different SKILCRAFT products (from pens to ducktape) . You see them in government and military bases. (The AbilityOne Network)Toys and GamesGreenToys - “Green Toys has recycled more than 80 million milk jugs to make eco-friendly toys” https://www.greentoys.com/K’nex https://www.basicfun.com/knex/index.htmlBicycle cards (US playing cards) - https://usplayingcard.com/Made in Washington*Bee Hive Candles - Based in Maple Falls, bees wax, honeycomb and aromatherapy candles.Big Dipper Wax Works - Based in Seattle since 1993, beeswax candles, essential oils, and body care products.Heritage Distilling - “Largest Independently Owned Craft Distillery in the PNW” with Cask and Spirits membership clubs. Locations in Gig Harbor, Roslyn, Tumwater and Ballard neighborhood and Eugene in Oregon. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit bellinghampodcast.substack.com

Julian High United Way of Southern Nevada President and CEO With decades of experience in driving change and raising the bar for nonprofits and for-profit organizations, Julian High is well-equipped to bring transformative change as United Way of Southern Nevada's President and CEO. With deep roots in Las Vegas, Julian began his career as the Director of Community and Government Affairs for Sahara Gaming Corporation. As the first African American to serve in this role for a gaming corporation, Julian began his path to breaking new ground and aligning philanthropic giving with local issues. With a heart for serving the community, Julian moved to the East Coast to lead the national communication efforts to secure employment opportunities at National Industries for the Blind. To ensure that every member of the LGBTQ+ family has the freedom to live with equality under the law, Julian next became the Director of Diversity and Inclusion and Human Resources for the Human Rights Campaign. Through his leadership and determination, the organization received national exposure for their work in diversity, equity, and inclusion. Most recently, Julian served as the Founder and President of J3H Platinum, an executive management consultancy that has helped C-Suite executives build strong, cohesive teams and create effective communications, business, and political strategies. With the goal of devoting himself to helping the community where he grew up, Julian and his husband, Michael Vaughn, returned to Las Vegas. Growing up in the Westside neighborhood of Regal Estates, where he served as the Student Body President of Chaparral High School, Julian continues to be a strong advocate for connecting local neighborhoods to resources for all to have the opportunity to succeed. Julian is inspired to leverage resources in our community to match the $10 million donation that United Way of Southern Nevada received from Amazon co-founder MacKenzie Scott to help provide access to education, workforce development, and community support.

Chetan Bakhru, JPMorgan Chase & Co., Sr Accessibility Specialist Chetan Bakhru talks about the challenges of his early education as someone who was born totally blind. The emergence of accessible technologies made it possible for him to be independent in his studies and lead him into software engineering. His continued interest in technology and helping others brought to the National Industries for the Blind and consulting at Level Access. Now he works for JP Morgan Chase coaching and guiding product teams on how to meet accessibility requirements. 

On today's episode of The Daily Scoop Podcast, the General Services Administration is taking down SAM.gov this weekend to complete its transition to a new unique entity identifier. The new Polaris contract from GSA already has a protest. Michael Wooten, vice president for strategic direction at the National Industries for the Blind and former administrator for Federal Procurement Policy, discusses implementing a process of frictionless acquisition. The Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency will get half a billion dollars more next fiscal year than it did this fiscal year if Congress approves the White House's budget request. Grant Schneider, senior director for cybersecurity services at Venable LLP and former federal chief information security officer, explains what impact he sees the increase of funding potentially having on federal agencies. The Commerce Department and its components are pushing their cloud migrations hard. Nagesh Rao, chief information officer at the Bureau of Industry and Security, explains how cloud transformations have helped his agency. This interview is part of FedScoop's “Cloud-Driven Innovation in Federal Government” video campaign, sponsored by AWS. The Daily Scoop Podcast is available every weekday afternoon. If you want to hear more of the latest from Washington, subscribe to The Daily Scoop Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify and Stitcher. And if you like what you hear, please let us know in the comments.

Episode Summary Talk about a man on a mission and a man with a vision, meet Dr. Kirk Adams. Dr. Adams was one of the fortunate children who happen to be blind and whose parents did not stifle his growth but let him explore his world no matter where it led. As an adult, Kirk worked for a time in the financial world, but later he found that his talents went more toward him working in the not-for-profit world. Today, Dr. Adams leads one of the largest and well-known agencies in the world serving blind people. The AFB today conducts a great deal of research about blindness and explores how to help lead blind persons to be more fully integrated into society. This week you get to experience Kirk's visions and thoughts first-hand. I hope you will come away with a different and more inclusive attitude about what blindness really should mean in our world. If you are an employer, take Kirk's positivity to heart and consider hiring more blind people in your business. About the Guest Kirk Adams, Ph.D. President and CEO American Foundation for the Blind As president and chief executive officer of the American Foundation for the Blind (AFB), Kirk Adams, Ph.D. is a longtime champion of people who are blind or visually impaired and is committed to creating a more inclusive, accessible world for the more than 25 million Americans with vision loss. Dr. Adams has led AFB to a renewed focus on cultivating in-depth and actionable knowledge and promoting understanding of issues affecting children, working-age adults, and older people who are blind or visually impaired. His role involves pursuing strategic relationships with peers, policymakers, employers, and other influencers to engender and accelerate systemic change. Dr. Adams frequently serves as a keynote speaker at conferences across the country, on topics including education, vocational rehabilitation and workforce participation, vision loss and aging, and technology. He has consulted with top leadership at Google, Facebook, Microsoft, as well as key leaders in the finance, public policy, nonprofit, and tech sectors to discuss topics ranging from product and digital accessibility to civil and disability rights. Before joining AFB, Dr. Adams was president and CEO of The Lighthouse for the Blind, Inc. He was a member of the Governor's Task Force on Disability Employment and the Seattle Public Library's Strategic Plan Advisory Committee and served on the boards of the National Industries for the Blind, and the National Association for the Employment of People Who Are Blind. Dr. Adams graduated magna cum laude with a Bachelor of Arts in economics from Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington, and earned his master's in not-for-profit leadership at Seattle University in Washington. In 2019, he completed his doctorate in Leadership and Change at Antioch University in Yellow Springs, Ohio. In 2020, he was awarded a Doctor of Humane Letters from SUNY Upstate Medical University. About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is an Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favourite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes Ad  00:01 On April the 16th at 2pm North American instant time, blind musicians from across the globe are getting together for an online benefit concert for Ukraine. It's called we're with you, and all money raised goes to the World Blind unions unity fund for Ukraine. To learn more, including how to listen and how to perform it were with you visit mushroom m.com/withYou that is mushroomfm.com/withYou   Michael Hingson  00:30 access cast and accessibly initiative presents unstoppable mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet Hi, I'm Michael Hinkson, Chief vision officer for accessibility and the author of the number one New York Times best selling book thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion and acceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The Unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by excessive B, that's a cc E, SSI, capital B E, visit www.accessibility.com To learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:50 Hi again, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset today. I'm really honored and proud and pleased to invite and have someone on the podcast who I've known for a while and he's he's moved up through the world of working with blind persons and disabilities over the years. When I first met Kirk Adams, he was the CEO of the Lighthouse for the Blind in Seattle. He is now the would it be CEO Kirk, President and CEO, President and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind. But more important than that, I mean, that's just a little thing more important than that. In 2019, he became a PhD he became as my mother used to say a doctor. Anyway, so Kirk Adams, welcome to unstoppable mindset.   Kirk Adams  02:39 Well, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.   Michael Hingson  02:42 So you, you have been involved in in the blindness world for a while, tell us sort of maybe some of the early parts about you that that, that you want to talk about growing up and how you ended up being involved in blindness and advocacy and all that stuff?   Kirk Adams  02:59 Well, it's, it's interesting, and I'll just kind of start where I am, and then I'll zip all the way back. But I'm very, very interested in social justice, and a more inclusive society. And of course, the way I come at that is through my lived experience of blindness, and working hard, day and night, to create more opportunities for inclusion for people who are blind in society. And in particular, I'm very interested in employment. As we all know, the workforce participation rate for people are blind is about 30, or 35%, which is about half of the general population. And I say whatever outcomes you're looking at, it's either half as good or twice as bad for people who are blind compared to the general population. As far as employment goes, but, you know, I'm at AFP. Now we're a very much a research focused organization. And when we do research and we look at the factors that lead to successful employment for blind adults, I through good fortune, and mostly not, not on any effort of my own, I lived a life that gave me a lot of those success factors. So it really started when I my retinas detached when I was in kindergarten. I became totally blind within a couple days had a bunch of emergency retinal surgeries that weren't successful. This was pre laser surgery. And so my parents were told Kirk cannot come back to school here at the neighborhood school, he needs to go to the state school for blankets, and we live north of Seattle. My parents visited the Washington State School in Vancouver were not very impressed with what they saw there. They were both teachers just starting out on their careers. And my retinal specialists, you University of Oregon medical school in Portland, said you should check out the Oregon State School and Salem, it's great. They visited, they liked it, they quit their jobs moved. So I could go to Oregon State School. And the success factor here is I was totally blind. There was no question. Does he need to learn braille? Does he need to use a cane? There's there's so many kids with, you know, varying levels of vision that are not, unfortunately, not always given the right instructional curriculum. So kids are using magnification and audio and not learning braille. But there was no question. And we know that strong blindness skills are a strong predictor of successful employment. So I've learned to read and write Braille as a first grader, and type on a typewriter and use a white cane. And a little aside, the one of the happiest days for me is when the Braille book review comes and one came last week, and they're in the children's book section is a book by Michael Hinkson. Running with Roselle anyway. Yeah, so there it is. I put it on my request list. I'll be reading it.   Michael Hingson  06:17 And let me know what you think.   Kirk Adams  06:20 And then, you know, my parents, although they didn't know any blind people we grew up in. I grew up in small towns, we're not connected with with blindness organizations, they instinctively did a couple things, right. One is they had very high expectations of me, they expected me to get good grades, and expected me to participate in sports. Expected expected me to do chores, and I didn't always helped me figure out how to do it. But the high expectations were there. And we see that as well as a predictor that the parents when schools have high expectations of blind kids, they, they they do do well.   Michael Hingson  07:05 Back thinking back on your parents, not telling you how to do it. What what do you think of that? And I'm sure it's different than what you thought at the time. But what do you say experiences?   Kirk Adams  07:16 Well, I'd say I learned how to it was sink or swim. So I learned how to swim. I was in public school, I was the only blind kid and all my schooling, I kind of had to wing it a lot. And I don't I don't think my psycho social deeds were attended to much, but I did, I did learn. And this was another another point, living every day as a blind person, you have opportunities to develop characteristics and some really unique ways and some strengths that the average person may not have around resilience and problem solving and grit and determination and how to work with teams. How to communicate, I got when I when I went to college, and I had some money from the Commission for the Blind to hire readers. So I was 18 years old. I was interviewing and hiring and sometimes firing employees readers and now invoicing and take taking care of the the the the accounts and and those things that my classmates were, we're not doing. The other the other thing I had early work experience. I was really into sports. My dad was a high school basketball coach, I wrestled ran cross country, and I became the sports editor for the high school paper. And the sports editor for the high school paper got to write a weekly high school sports column for the city weekly paper. So I was a I was a 16 year old sports columnist writing a weekly column for the Snohomish Tribune, showing up my timesheet and getting a check and happily spending that minimum wage. Thing was three 325 an hour, something like that. So again, I had some of these early I had some of these success factors that lead to successful employment for people who are blind. And my opportunity at AF B is to create those opportunities for lots of other blind people. So we develop programs that seek seek to level the playing field for people who are blind, we are focused on employment. And I had the experience as a young college graduate with a good track record and school Phi Beta Kappa and Akun laude and a four point in my field of econ and could not you could not get a job like many young blind people. We are the most highly educated, most underemployed disability group as far as college, college graduation, things like that. So I wanted a job in finance, I started applying for jobs, I wanted to live in Seattle, I went to college in Walla Walla needed to live where there was a bus system. I, you know, sent sent in resumes and cover letters, would get a phone interview, would be invited in for the in person interview, and then the employer would be very confused about why a blind person is coming at applying for this job. How in the world could they do it? So you know, disclose disclosing your disability is the thing, when do you do it? So I wasn't disclosing until I walked in with my cane, and my slate and stylus, and some braille paper in a folder. And then I started disclosing in my cover letter playing, I'm totally blind. This is how I do what I do. This is how I'll do the job. And then I wasn't even getting phone interviews. So yeah, I guess cast my net wider and wider and wider. And I applied for a job with a securities firm a sales job selling tax free municipal bonds. And the sales manager had also gone to Whitman College had also been an econ major, like 15 years before me. So he called some of the professors that we had, and they said, Sure, Kurt can sell tax free bonds over the phone. So I did that for 10 years, straight commission 50 cold calls a day every day builds build strong bones. And when I turned 30, had a had an opportunity to make a change. The firm I was with was purchased by another firm and just a good inflection point. And I got the What color's your parachute book, out of the Talking Book and Braille library and read it and did all the exercises and got clear that I wanted to be in the nonprofit sector. And I wanted to be in a leadership role. And I wanted to devote the rest of my working life to creating opportunities for people who are blind. So the next little blind kid could have an easier, easier time of it. And I got very interested in leadership, I went back to school and got a master's degree in not for profit leadership, got involved in nonprofit fundraising, was hired by the lighthouse, Seattle to start their fundraising program and foundation and eventually became the CEO there simultaneous to that. Again, really believing leadership is key to changing our world. I went back to school, as you mentioned, and earned a PhD in leadership and change through Antioch University.   Michael Hingson  13:09 I know the first time the first time I heard you speak was when you came to the National Federation blind convention after just becoming I think the CEO in Atlanta, in Atlanta, I had gone to work for Guide Dogs for the Blind, we were having challenges at gdb because people would not create documentation in an accessible format before meetings. And I recall you talking about the concept of no Braille, no meeting, no   Kirk Adams  13:40 Braille no meeting,   Michael Hingson  13:41 I took right back to them. And it helped a little bit. But it was amazing to see that there was such resistance at such a prestigious organization to hiring and being open to hiring blind people given what they do. And it was, it was a real challenge. Bob Phillips, who was the CEO at the time, created the job that that I had, and I'm sure there will I know there was a lot of resistance to it, but he was the CEO and made it happen. But still, the culture was not oriented toward being open for blind people to to have jobs there. And there are a few blind people working there now, but not even what there was several years ago, which is unfortunate, because there are a lot of things that that could be accomplished by blind people in various aspects of that organization. And as you point out of most organizations, you and I had a lot of very similar life experiences growing up, which is, I think, just evidence of what needs to be done for for kids who are blind and I'm defining blind, as Ken Jernigan used to which was your blind when you lose it If I sight that you have to use alternatives to be able to accomplish tasks and I gather you agree with that. When you were in college, did you have an Office for Students with Disabilities on campus? And if so, how did know?   Kirk Adams  15:14 You didn't know? Yeah. I went to Whitman College, which was small. You know, I graduated from high school in 1979. So I got a, you know, had the four track cassette player and I got is read by volunteers by Recording for the Blind. And the state provided me with a Perkins Brailler, and the cutting edge technology of an IBM Selectric typewriter with a recent. That's, that's what I had.   Michael Hingson  15:46 Well, I asked the question because when I went to, to UC Irvine, we had an office. And Jan Jenkins, early on when I started there, said to me, she lectured me, she said, I want you to understand what I do here, and this is her. She said, I'm here to assist, you need to take responsibility for doing things like going to professor's if you want books in braille, and getting the the books and, and doing the things that you do. But my job here as a principal in the university is if you can't get the cooperation you want, then you come to me, and I'll help you do it, which is such a refreshing attitude, even today. Because in the office is for students with disabilities, mostly today, you come into our office to take a test or we'll get the information for you, we'll get the things for you. And as you pointed out so eloquently, students as a result, don't learn to do it. And and like you I had to hire and fire readers. And and do all of the the same sorts of things that that you had to do. And it's the only way for us to succeed.   Kirk Adams  16:57 Absolutely. And again, if you if you look at research, and you look at what employers say they want employees for the 21st century, its employees who are resilient and flexible and have grit, and are problem solvers, and are creative and know how to analyze and manage risks and know how to work in teams of diverse people. And in my conversation as well. If you're looking to win the talent, war, blind people, by the fact of living everyday lived experience of blindness, learn, learn how to do all those things and develop those capabilities, develop those characteristics.   Michael Hingson  17:39 I think I've told the story on this podcast before but I like you debated often about whether to say that I'm blind when I'm writing a cover letter for a resume. And in 1989, I was looking for a job. And my wife and I were talking and we found this great job in a newspaper. It was perfect. And I said to her I said well, I say in the cover letter that I'm blind and my wife like wives all over can can say this. She said you're an idiot. And I said why? And she said you What is it you've always said that you learn when you took a Dale Carnegie sales course when you started out selling for Kurzweil? Well, she was ahead of me as often is the case. And finally, she said, you've said that you tell every sales person you've ever hired and every person that you've ever managed in sales, turn perceived liabilities into assets. And I think that's the key. Because blindness isn't a liability. It's a perceived liability. And what I did is I went off and I wrote a letter based on that. And I actually said that I'm blind. And the way I did it was I said in the last paragraph, so the letter, the most important thing that you need to know about me is that I'm blind because as a blind person, I've had to sell all of my life just to be able to survive and accomplish anything I've had to sell to convince people to let me buy a house, take my guide dog on an airplane, pre ACA, nada, rent an apartment and all that. So when you're hiring someone, do you want to hire somebody who just comes in for eight or 10 hours a day and then goes home after the job is done? Or do you want to hire somebody who truly understands sales for the science and art that it is and sells as a way of life? So I mean, that that I think is the whole point of perceived liabilities? Well, I did get a phone call from them. They were impressed by that. And I got the job and worked there for eight years. Fantastic. And I think we all need to learn how to win whatever job that we do to take that same sort of approach because I think most any job could adapt that same concept to say why blindness is a perceived liability on the part of the employers and why we're best for the job because of the way we live.   Kirk Adams  19:59 Perfect. Now I'm thinking about Carol Dweck work on the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset. So it all, it all holds together, you know, access strikes based asset, space, philosophy, etc?   Michael Hingson  20:17 Well, it does. And, you know, blindness is a perceived liability, and is all for us only as much of a liability as we allow it to be.   Kirk Adams  20:26 I think that's background expectations, too. As I mentioned, before my parents held high expectations of me, therefore, I hold high expectations of myself. Yeah, I know that not every blind kid is in a family situation like that. I've talked to many blind parents who are Parents of Blind Children, rather, who don't first learning their child is blind or going to be blind, just despair, and, you know, feel that their child has no future. And will, there'll be a caretaker role. And so it's really, really important that the high expectations get established early on. And like I say, not not every point blank kid is born into a family that's going to do that, automatically. So that's, that's an opportunity for all of us who are blind, to talk to parents of blind kids, and something I really enjoy doing, and letting them know that, you know, your, your kiddo can do whatever they want to do, as long as they are given the right tools and supports, and the opportunity.   Michael Hingson  21:36 Yeah, how do we get parents who feel desperation and so on? How do we get them to change their minds?   Kirk Adams  21:48 Well, I think that's exposure. And I think exposure to blind adults, successful blind adults, I am a big advocate for both consumer groups. So if someone's listening and are not connected with plain adults playing people, for the National Federation of blind American Council of the Blind, comes in different flavors, they have chapters and and different groups and affinity groups. And I would suggest checking it out. I think that's one way. I think that's an important way in the same in the workplace. And, you know, again, I'll keep harping on research. You know, it's shown that if a department or a manager hires a blind person, they're much more likely to hire another blind person, you know, then than another department hiring their first blind person. So, you know, familiarity, understanding the capabilities, and understanding that people are people with the same emotions and tribes and hopes and dreams and all the things I will before before I forget, I'm mentioned at work workplace technology study that we just did. And it was very well designed. We did We did focus groups interviewed then created a, an online survey then did in depth, in depth interviews, just to understand the dynamics of technology in the workplace, for people who are applying, what's working, what's not working, what tools do people use for which functions, and it's available on our website, so FB dot o RG? Easy, easy website to remember that we've done. We've done four or five, I think, really important studies in the last couple of years and and all that data is there.   Michael Hingson  23:36 You were talking a little bit earlier about what employers are looking for in terms of being flexible and so on? Where does loyalty fit into all that in today's world? You know, you used to hear about people staying in jobs for most of their whole time. And now it's a lot different. But where does loyalty fit?   Kirk Adams  24:01 That is a super interesting question. And I don't think there's clarity on that. And I was just reading an article this morning about the 10 greatest risks faced by corporate corporate boards, and one of them was the uncertainty of what the workplace is going to look like, in the future. Strategically, how do you build your workforce and your talent pool, not knowing exactly what the workplace is going going to look like? So a couple a couple things that come to mind. One One is that people change careers. I can't cite this. I can't cite the numbers, but something like seven, seven or eight job changes now and a lifetime of work. And the trick is to manage that person's career path. While keeping them in your organization, if you value them, and you find that they're a great contributor, and you don't want to lose them. So it's a different type of conversation, what? You, you try it HR, you don't like it that much, you'd rather be in it, how to recreate a pathway to keep a person within the organization. And then then the next thing we have, we've had the great resignation here with COVID. And so many people, it's been a wake up call for so many people to say, Hey, I'm Life is too short, I want to do something that's meaningful, I want to do I want to live well, I moved from the East Coast back to Seattle, to be closer to closer to family. So people are making those kinds of life based decisions that I think are much greater right now. I would say that the shifting landscape and employment I believe will create more opportunities for people who are blind as remote work, telework and hybrid work situations become normalized. You know, there, there is language in our statutes that says, setting up a person to work with a disability work from home is the accommodation of last resort. That was the, you know, the assumption was that everyone needed to go into the office, and everyone needed to be in a building with their co workers. And to set up a person to work for from home was the the last accommodation that should be considered. And I think that's, that's been flipped. Now. So I'm really, I'm really excited to see what it's going to look like.   Michael Hingson  26:44 I think that it is a, it is a moving target for everyone. And the key is to not allow blind people to be part of that flip. And I think that's that you're exactly right, it will be interesting to see where it goes, I asked you that question, because one of the things that I've often heard is, a blind person who is hired to work somewhere, will tend to be more loyal and want to stay there, rather, and will do a better job as a result rather   Kirk Adams  27:17 than and that's going out of that and that's verifiable. Look at Disability Research, DuPont did a really long longitudinal study 5060s 70s that people with disabilities are, they have less turnover, you have less absenteeism. Morale, in work groups goes up. customer perceptions improve. So there's there's a lot of there's good business cases for employers to include people with disabilities.   Michael Hingson  27:55 Yeah, it makes good sense. And, and, you know, we, we see in so many different ways that there are advantages to being blind, which which all of us also need to learn how to explain. And an emphasize another one that comes to mind. We've used it excessively a fair amount is the concept of brand loyalty, which is a little different. But the Nielsen Company did a study in 2016, talking about the fact that people with disabilities in general, and I'm going to narrow it to blind people tend to be a lot more brand loyalty to the companies online that give them access to their stuff, because they don't have to slave and work so hard to get access to it. And they're going to continue to work with those companies. That make sense to me. It is, it is just absolutely relevant that that we need to to get more of those messages out and make it happen. Of course, that's one of the reasons that we have unstoppable mindset is to hopefully educate people about some of these things, because it makes perfect sense to do. And there's no reason why we can't get get better access. It's just a matter of educating employers and a lot of decision makers who are not blind that we're, we're actually an asset to them.   Kirk Adams  29:16 Yeah, and I again, I'll mention an AFP. I think one of our crown jewels is our annual leadership conference. It'll be May 2 and third in Arlington, Virginia. When I first went to work for the satellite house in 2000, the person who hired me said if you want to get to know the blindness field, you need to go to the AFP conference. So I went to my first in 2001 I've never missed and it's it's fairly unique in that we bring together all the stakeholders so we bring leaders from voc rehab for the the federal agencies, nonprofit CEOs, corporate diversity, inclusion and access ability folks, academic researchers, blindness advocates advocates into the same space. And that's a really interesting thing to do. Because those groups don't often talk to one another. Although they, they would, they would all say they share a common goal in improving employment outcomes for people are blind. There's a really cool research study where they asked VR counselors and HR hiring managers, the same set of questions. And the one that stands out to me was the question was what what is the greatest barrier to successful employment of people who are blind, and the the VR counselor said, attitudes of employers, perceptions of the employer, and the employer said, lack of understanding of our business needs on the point of VR. So, you know, both groups would say they are very dedicated to improving employment outcomes, but but they come at it from from different angles. So, AFP Leadership Conference is a place where we, we bring all those stakeholders together in conversation. So it's, it's pretty cool.   Michael Hingson  31:14 And hopefully, you can get them to communicate a little bit more with each other. Yes. I don't know. It is it is interesting. Do you ever watch the ABC ABC show? What would you do? I have not. Have you ever heard of it?   Kirk Adams  31:30 I don't think   Michael Hingson  31:31 so. Duncan Jonas, has run the show in the summer, every year for a number of years. And one of the the whole premise of the show is that they bring in actors to play roles. And see how the, the people who are around them react. So for example, on one show is actually one of the first shows they brought in a an actor to play a barista at a coffee shop. And this was, I think, put on or created by the Rochester Institute for the Deaf. They brought in two women, deaf people, and there was a job posting and they went in and applied for the job. And the whole process for the decrease barista was to simply say, No, you're deaf, you can't do the job. And, and he did a really good job of that. But these, these two deaf people kept saying, well, we could do the job. This is a kitchen job. You're not asking for me to even interact with customers all the time. And he said, Well, what if there's something I need you to do? Well, you can write it down, or I can read lips, and he just continued to resist, which was great. But during the day that they did this, there were three HR people who came in. And they after listening to all this for a while, pulled the barista aside, and they said, you're handling this all wrong, these people have more rights than the rest of us. Just take the application and write on it. It's not a good fit. But don't don't keep arguing. It was it was fascinating that the HR people did that. So there is a there is a problem with HR. But again, that's what we have to help educate in, in all that we do too. So I'm glad to to see what you're doing and that you are bringing people together. I've I've been to a couple of the leadership conferences, but not not lately.   Kirk Adams  33:34 Well, we'll see. We'll see you in May. But I've got to work that out. But the workplace technology study I mentioned earlier, there's there's real data there from real people. Current so we can show HR managers that, hey, blind people report that part of your recruiting process involves some sort of online exercise or test 60% of your blind and low vision, people are having challenges accessibility challenges with that, you know, 30% of the people you're hiring, are having problems with your employee onboarding processes. So you know, there's anecdotal stories, there's complaints, but now we have real data. So it's really intended for the HR manager, the IT manager, and assistive technology developers to really show what's what's actually happening. You know, how your blind employees are needing to take work home and use their own equipment and work more hours. And, you know, they're having having to ask sighted colleagues to do essential steps in their processes. And I know people hear those stories, but now we've got we've got numbers and we got statistics. And you know, and I HR person doesn't want to say Yeah, 30% of this group of people is having problems with my onboarding process. You know that that's, that's a number that is going to get some attention, we think.   Michael Hingson  35:12 We hope so. And we hope that we can continue to find ways to, to get people to be a little bit more aware of all this, because accessibility to the tools is, is one of the biggest challenges we face. You know, that's why I joined accessibe. B last year, because I saw that there were opportunities and accessibility has even expanded a lot. And is saying that what it does to create internet access, which began with an artificial intelligence system that does a good job with some websites and a significant part of websites, but also doesn't necessarily do everything in an accessible he has now put together additional processes to create human intervention to help with the rest of it. But excessive he also wants to educate people about web access, whether they use excessive these products or not, because the feeling is we've got to do more to educate people in that exactly what makes sense to do.   Kirk Adams  36:13 Yes, and as I mentioned, before, we began our recorded part of our conversation, FB, NFB ACB, and the national rights Disability Network have drafted a joint letter to the Department of Justice, asking them to implement the web and app accessibility regulations that they are empowered to enact. And we have sign on letter. Again, you can go to afp.org, for more information, and we're looking for disability and civil rights organizations who want to join us and Ernie urging the Department of Justice to do that. Because it's so meaningful. I am a I'm not a high tech person. I like you said, I'm brand loyal to a small, small number of retail websites. But we also did a study last year, as part of what Mississippi State National Research and Training Center on blindness was doing. They contracted with AFP, we looked at 30 corporate websites, and we looked at specifically at their recruiting and hiring portals. And there's lots of accessibility issues. So they're there. So   Michael Hingson  37:42 five away compliance for the government. Yeah.   Kirk Adams  37:45 Yes. So whatever we add FB can do to change that landscape to change the way institutions, government, nonprofit corporate address, inclusion, put it under the umbrella of digital inclusion. You know, I think it's somewhat similar to we've more from diversity to inclusion. In our language, I think we've more from the digital divide to digital inclusion, which I think as a much more proactive concept.   Michael Hingson  38:21 A speech I've given for years is actually titled moving from diversity to inclusion, because diversity is doesn't even include us anymore. Which is unfortunate. And so we've got to go to to something that makes more sense. And you're either inclusive or you're not, you can't be partially inclusive, because then you're not inclusive.   Kirk Adams  38:40 There you go. Like it makes I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm stealing that one here. Welcome   Michael Hingson  38:46 to have it, it's You go right ahead. Because you either are inclusive, or you're not, it's a quantum jump in you can't be partially inclusive and say you're inclusive. You shouldn't be able to say you're partially diverse. And so you're diverse, because but but you know, that ship has kind of sailed. But I think it is something that that we need to do. And it's all about education. And it's all about finding ways to give kids at a young age the opportunity that you talked about Braille earlier. How do we get the educational world to recognize, again, the value of Braille and what's happening with that? Oh, boy. I know that was a loaded question.   Kirk Adams  39:36 That's that's that's my my personal soapbox, which I can can get oh, I don't know how to do it, other than frame it in terms of literacy. It is a literacy question. Reading is reading listening to something as listening to something writing is reading writing, you know, if if we didn't need to read and write and cited kids wouldn't be taught how to read and write. It's just a matter of efficiency and efficacy and art and being being a human human being in a literate society. So there's some there. There are some numbers embedded in some of our research, that that show the number of employed respondents who are Braille readers or use Braille displays. There are some there were some numbers generated 30 years ago that indicated that 90% of of blind people who are employed read Braille, that doesn't appear to be the case. Now, based on what we can infer from from our surveys. Does that I'm not sure what that means. So I I will say, to answer your question, I don't know. And we need to figure it out. So I will take 10 I think that's some deep research questions. But I would be energized to explore   Michael Hingson  41:15 take what you said to another level, let's let's say your right 30 years ago, 90% of employed blind people were Braille readers. And that number has dropped. Just for the sake of discussion, let's say significantly. The other thing that immediately comes to mind is how far people who are blind especially who are not Braille readers today are advancing as opposed to Braille readers. Because Braille is the, the means of reading and writing, I know so many people who are partially blind, who have grown up, not having the opportunity to learn to read Braille, who are very blunt about saying, if we had only been able to learn to read and write Braille, we would have been a lot better off because it's just so much slower and harder for us today.   Kirk Adams  42:14 Yeah, so I hear people with those same, same regrets. And, again, it's back to what I said earlier that as a, becoming totally blind at age five, there was no question I knew I was going to learn braille, and I was instructed in Braille. And, you know, it wasn't a question or debate. Who, who, you know, who knows what would have happened if I would have had enough usable vision to read with magnification? So I like I guess, along the same lines, is what you mentioned about Doctor turning his definition of blind, you know, if, if a child cannot read at the same rate as their sighted classmate using magnification, they need to learn braille, so they can read read just as fast as their kid at the next desk, you know,   Michael Hingson  43:03 otherwise, why do we teach sighted kids to read just let them watch TV which is, which is another, which is another technology and art form or whatever, that that isn't as creative in some ways as it used to be, but they're also good shows. So I guess we got to cope with that, too.   Kirk Adams  43:24 But yeah, audio description is not not our thing. Although we appreciate it immensely. And I know some other blindness organizations are really carrying the torch to increase the amount of audio description. But that just brings to mind that accessibility and innovation around accessibility for people with with particular disabilities is good for everybody. Yeah, and I know, my, my wife, she's puttering around the kitchen, and there's a movie on, she'll put the audio audio description on, you know, so she can, she can follow it. When I was at the lighthouse in Seattle, we worked with Metro Transit to put larger bus numbers with contrasting colors, because we have had a lot of employees with ARPI. A lot of Dateline, employees with ushers, and they did enlarge the bus numbers and put them in contrasting colors. And they said they had more positive comments from their general ridership about that than anything they've done. Because it made it easier for people with 2020 vision to see if that was their bus coming. Sure. So simple, simple example. But yeah, one of   Michael Hingson  44:45 the things that one of the things that really surprises me still, and I've mentioned it before, and so it's one of my soap boxes is Apple, put voiceover partly because they were compelled To do it, but put VoiceOver on iPhones, iPods, iTunes, you and all that, but on iPhones and iPods and the Mac, they put voiceover, they created it. But I'm very surprised that in the automotive world, they haven't done more to make voiceover a part of the driver experience so that people don't have to go look at screens on their iPhones or whatever. As opposed to being able to use VoiceOver, because clearly, it would be a very advantageous thing. And I also think of like the Tesla, which uses a screen including a touchscreen for everything. And my gosh, yeah, you can do a little bit more of that, because the Tesla has co pilot that allows you to interact in some other ways, although you're still supposed to keep your hands on the wheel and all that, but why aren't they using voice technology more than they are?   Kirk Adams  45:53 That's a good question that I can't answer.   Michael Hingson  45:56 I know, it's, it's, I've never heard a good explanation of it as to why they don't. And it makes perfect sense to do it. The voices are very understandable, much less dealing with Android and so on. But no one is using the voice technology and the voice output to take the place of of screens, which is crazy, much less voice input. So it is it is a mystery. And it is one of those things that it would be great if people would would consider doing more of that the automotive industries missing out and of course, we as blind people are the ones who bring that opportunity to them will take credit.   Kirk Adams  46:34 There you go. Well, you know, when when I was walking around with my four track, cassette player listening to textbooks, I was the, you know, the the oddity in school, and now everyone listens to Audible books. Right, right.   Michael Hingson  46:51 It's a common thing. And now not only that, you can use things like bone conducting headphones, so you can listen to your audio as you walk around and still hear what else is going on. So you're a little bit safer.   Kirk Adams  47:05 Yeah, I don't know how far afield you want to get in this conversation. But you know, indoor wayfinding navigation systems, many people are trying to figure that that out, you know, the GPS systems work pretty well when you're outdoors. But when when you're indoors, what are the wayfinding tools that are that are emerging? And you know, I'm thinking about haptics and, yes, different modes of receiving information than then audibly, because most of the adaptations accommodations for people who are blind tend to be audible. And if you get 234 things going at once you get you get a diminishing marginal utility there. And then at some point, you know, becomes counterproductive if too much is going on audibly. So I'm, I'm I went to Consumer Electronics Show ces for the first time, this past January. And I was very interested, I was very interested in kind of the the emerging use of different modes of conveying information, either through vibration or temperature or airflow, different types of information. So lots of smart people out there, trying to figure out ways to make make us all live better.   Michael Hingson  48:35 Yeah, I will have to hunt down Mike Mae and get him on the show, because he can certainly talk our ears off about indoor navigation integration, you should haven't done that. I've got to get hold of Mike, I think that would be cool. But it is all part of as you said, making all of our lives better. And the whole concept of virtual reality is something that all of us can take advantage of and use. And again, a lot of the things that that come about because of some of these developments actually started with with blindness. I mean, look at Ray Kurzweil with the Kurzweil Reading Machine, he developed the technology to be able to let a camera build a picture of a page of print. And his first choice was to develop a machine that would read out loud of course for blind people. Percy took it further after that, and now OCR is a way of life but it did start with Ray without machine, the Kurzweil Reading Machine for the blind.   Kirk Adams  49:37 Yep. Remember, it becomes a washing machine. Now Yeah, we can just now you can do with your iPhone.   Michael Hingson  49:43 You can and better how much our computer processes have have evolved over the years. It's really pretty incredible, isn't it? It really, really is. And you know, but technology is all around us. And it, it is a it is a good thing. But again, it's all about how we use it and how we envision it being used. So it again, it gets back to the discussion that we had about Braille. You know, people say, Well, you don't need Braille because you can use recordings and all right, well, that's just not true. Why is it that we should be treated differently? Why should our exposure to being able to read and write be different than people who have eyesight because reading and writing with Braille is really equivalent to reading and writing with, with printed page or pens and pencils, or typewriters now that I knew mentioned running with Roselle earlier, I remember, sitting on an airplane going, I think I was flying back to California from somewhere. And we were going through many revisions of running with Roselle at the time and Jeanette Hanscom, who was my colleague in writing that who writes children's books, so she was able to make the words something that we felt would be more relevant for kids, although I gotta tell you more adults by running orthros health and then children do so I've heard. But I spent the entire time flying from the East Coast to the West Coast, going through an editing, running with Roselle. And I was using a computer that talked but I also know that the skills that I learned as a braille reader gave me the ability to catch nuances and so on, that I never would have been able to learn to catch if I hadn't learned how to truly be able to read a book. And we edited the book. And you know, it is where it is today.   Kirk Adams  51:45 Well, it's on its way to me from the Talking Book and Braille library. I look forward to reading it. Congratulations on yet another publication Good on you.   Michael Hingson  51:56 Well, thank you, we're working now towards another one. Writing about fear, and especially with the pandemic all around us. And, gosh, fear has taken on many forms, some of which are understandable, and some of which are ridiculous. But we're we're looking at the fact that well, when I left the World Trade Center, I didn't exhibit fear. And that was because I learned what to do, and approach to the day when an unexpected emergency happen from a standpoint of knowledge. And I had actually, as I realized, over the last couple of years developed a mindset that if something were to occur, I mean, obviously something could happen. And we could have been smashed by something, but but without that happening, I could step back and quickly analyze whatever situation was occurring as we were going down the stairs or getting out. And I could focus on that and let the fear that I had not overwhelm me, but rather instead be a mechanism to keep me focused. So it's developing the mindset. So we're, we're working on it, and we've got proposal out to publishers, so we're hoping that that's going to go well. And, you know, we'll   Kirk Adams  53:18 see. Well, as mentioned earlier, I am president and CEO of the American Foundation for the Blind. And as such, I am scheduled to be on a zoom call with our Finance and Investment Committee of our Board of Trustees.   Michael Hingson  53:33 Well, we're gonna we're gonna let you go. But I'd like you to want to tell us if people want to reach out or if he wherever you want them to go to to learn more about AARP or you and reach out to you yeah,   Kirk Adams  53:45 FB dot o RG is the website. My email address, if you want to email me is my first initial K my last name Adams, K da ms at AFB dot o RG. And AFP and myself are present on social media. And you can find us easily and we'd love to connect. Get your thoughts, share our thoughts. Check out the Leadership Conference, May 2 and third in Arlington, Virginia and go to fb.org and look at our research.   Michael Hingson  54:20 Well, perfect. Well thank you very much for being with us today on unstoppable mindset. We very much appreciate your your time and hope that we'll be able to chat some more.   Kirk Adams  54:29 All right, Michael, keep up the good work.   Michael Hingson  54:32 We'll do it. If you'd like to learn more about unstoppable mindset, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast Or go to wherever you listen to other podcasts. We have a number of episodes up we'd love to also hear from you. You can reach me directly at Michael H AI that's ni ch AE L H AI at accessibly ACs. c e ss ibe.com. So Michael hai at accessible comm we'd love to hear from you. If you've got suggestions of people you think that we ought to have on the podcast, please let me know. We're always looking for guests if you want to be a guest, let us know about that as well. And most important of all, please, after listening to this, we'd appreciate it if you would give us a five star rating in wherever you're listening to podcasts. The ratings help us and they help us show other people that we're doing something of interest. So if you feel that way, please give us a five star rating. Thanks again for visiting us today. And we'll see you next week with another episode of unstoppable mindset the podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet.   Michael Hingson  55:51 You have been listening to the unstoppable mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hinkson.com/podcast. Michael Hinkson is spelled ma ch AE l h i n g s o n y you're on the site. Please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hinkson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hinkson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free ebook entitled blinded by fear. The Unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessibility and is sponsored by SSP. Please visit www.accessibly.com accessibly is spelled a cc e SSI B E. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In part 2 of my interview with Doug Goist, we talk about the mission of National Industries  for the Blind and how the pandemic has shifted employer's mindset of disabled persons working from home.  As Doug and his team work with candidates and employers, he crushes the common stigmas that are not valid and shows how even eyeglasses are assistive technology.Tune in and enjoy! Website:  https://nsite.org/LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-goist-656b3228/?miniProfileUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afs_miniProfile%3AACoAAAXcyCIBsWHvUSlFnji6HkCmKGFgGH8__rwWant to be a guest on our show?  Connect with us at: https://www.abilitiesinmotion.org/podcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/AbilitiesinMotionPALinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/abilitiesinmotion/Twitter: https://twitter.com/BerksCountyCIL?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5EauthorInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/instaaim/

Doug Goist wasn't born blind, however during his high school days, while playing sports he started to see it fading away. Listen in as I sit down with Doug and talk about his journey through O& M training and how he uses his disability to create employment ability for thousands every year.  With his years of experience and work with the National Industries for the Blind and NSITE, Doug and his team are changing the views for candidates with blindness and educating employers to become more inclusive. Website:  https://nsite.org/LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-goist-656b3228/?miniProfileUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afs_miniProfile%3AACoAAAXcyCIBsWHvUSlFnji6HkCmKGFgGH8__rwWant to be a guest on our show?  Connect with us at: https://www.abilitiesinmotion.org/podcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/AbilitiesinMotionPALinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/abilitiesinmotion/Twitter: https://twitter.com/BerksCountyCIL?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5EauthorInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/instaaim/

In the U.S. alone over 7.5 million people are blind or have low vision. One of the biggest challenges those with visual impairments face is in relation to employment. So that's why we're delighted to be joined on the show today by a cast of people who are trying, and succeeding, to make a difference on this front. Jax Willey, the President of Orion Global Talent and Billy Parker, Program Director at NSITE, a subsidiary of the National Industries for the Blind, are involved in a partnership to provide the professional education needed for blind and visually impaired individuals to enter the recruiting and sourcing industry. The brainchild of Jax's business partner, Bob Richardson, this program can help upskill members of this community and allow for actual career mobility. We also welcome Erin Pierpoint, the Head of Talent Strategy at Bristol Myers Squibb, to give us a glimpse into the future employer side of this discussion. In this edition of The Shortlist, we're going to be chatting about this program and its aims, the struggles faced by those with visual impairments and how SocialTalent's recruitment content has helped prepare these candidates for their future careers. To get involved with the initiatives mentioned in this show, you can contact: jax@orionogt.com johnny@socialtalent.com

Opportunity Knocks! Opportunity Magazine, that is, published by National Industries for the Blind. In this program, you will hear an article about how products made by people who are blind are helping military families. There will be another article about a very special Desert Oasis in Las Vegas.

As we focus on people of color and women in our diversity, inclusion and equality month, we cannot forget about the disability community. Johnathan Lucas, head of Nsite, a part of National Industries for the Blind comes on the podcast to discuss how the industry can better embrace disability workers.  WHERE TO FIND US: www.sdcexec.com www.facebook.com/sdcexec www.twitter.com/sdcexec www.instagram.com/sdcexec www.linkedin.com//supply-demand-chain-executive

We speak with Jonathon Lucus, Senior Director of Workforce Development at NIB and the NIB National Social Business Enterprise, NSITE. This new initiative by the National Industries for the Blind (NSITE) provides a continuum of employment services that connect employers with talented, dedicated people who are blind, visually impaired, and/or veterans to meet their workforce needs. Check them out today at www.nsite.org --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/visionserve-alliance/message

National Industries for the Blind has been helping people who are blind find meaningful work for many years. In this half hour, you will find out about the NIB’s outstanding programs and the people who make them possible.

We had the tremendous honor of interviewing Tiana Tozer earlier this week. After a career in public relations Tiana moved to Iraq to become a humanitarian aid worker. In Iraq she implemented an innovative program that taught people with disabilities how to advocate for themselves and become social change agents. In Sudan, she was the State Director in Southern Kordofan running a program to build government capacity to deliver services, before she was extracted from the civil war. Since being injured by an intoxicated driver at the age of 20, Tiana has worked to change attitudes about people with disabilities, she lobbied for the ADA, sat on the board of the National Industries for the Severely Handicapped (NISH, now SourceAmerica) most recently she ran an employment program for people with disabilities. A two-time Paralympic medalist, bringing home bronze and silver, Tiana was a member of the USA Women’s Wheelchair Basketball Team for five years. She has been featured on NBC Nighly News, NPR’s Here and Now and The Takeaway.

In collaboration with Jack Chen, Blind Abilities presents ExcelAbility. A collection of podcasts from Jack Chen’s ExcelAbility Team. ExcelAbility, empowering excellence and success for people with disabilities.   Podcast summary In this episode we speak with CEO Jim Gibbons. Jim has served in an executive role at several prominent organizations including Good Will and National Industries for the Blind. Jim was the first student who was blind to graduate from the Harvard Business School. Join us to hear Jim’s attitudes, techniques, and practices that enabled him to achieve incredible success. Click here for a transcript of this episode. Key lessons Jim will show us that Leveraging technology to gain access to the world around him, Continuously exhibiting tenacity and sticktoitiveness, and Building influence with others by learning to trust them have led to his tremendous success. Connect Send us your comments, feedback, or tell us about your own story of success. We’d love to hear from you. Follow us on Twitter @TeamXLAbility Like Team Excelability on Facebook Visit Team ExcelAbility on the web for more resources   Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities Appon the App Store.

Podcast summary In this episode we speak with CEO Jim Gibbons. Jim has served in an executive role at several prominent organizations including Good Will and National Industries for the Blind Jim was the first student who was blind to graduate from the Harvard Business School. Join us to hear Jim's attitudes, techniques, and practices […]

Kevin Lynch, president and chief executive officer for the National Industries for the Blind, discusses the organization's mission, its role in the procurement system, and the evolving role of e-Commerce in the federal procurement.

Main Menu is pleased to bring you part four of our exhibit hall coverage from the 2014 ACB Convention. In this show, we will hear the latest news, special pricing, and more from Accessamed, AT Guys, Perkins Products, Adobe, Aumed, School of Piano Technology for the Blind, National Industries for the Blind, and Philmore Productions. Main Menu would like to thank Jeff Bishop, Chase Crispin, and Brian McCallen for their hard work in preparing the excellent interviews for this show. We hope you enjoy our continuing convention coverage, and please contact us with your feedback.