Podcasts about nicole so

Nicole is a military spouse who had her VBAC in England. She shares what it was like to unexpectedly move overseas during pregnancy, how she navigated not receiving her household goods in time, and how she made the choice to deliver on base versus off. Nicole's first birth was a Cesarean during the height of COVID. During pushing, she was required to pause, take a COVID test, and wait an hour for the results or risk being separated from her baby after birth. Labor had gone smoothly up until that point, and Nicole knew something had changed after the pause. Things felt different, progress stalled, and ultimately Nicole consented to the Cesarean. Her VBAC was a surprisingly wild precipitous birth with only 2 hours between her first contraction and pushing the baby out! Meagan and Nicole discuss the unique challenges of precipitous births and how important it is to hold space for every birth experience. Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello. Welcome to The VBAC Link. Today is Veteran's Day. If you are just joining us this month for the very first time, then welcome to your first specialized episode week. I don't even know what to call it. What would you call this, Nicole? I don't even know. Nicole: A one-of-a-kind situation. Meagan: Last month in October, we had Midwifery Week and now we have Veterans. Nicole is the wife of a Servicemember and she definitely and experience that I think a lot of military members and moms experience and people don't think about it. I don't think about that. When I was having my baby, it was like, Which hospital should I go to? There are 10-15 right around me. Then you're like, “Oh, hey. I'm pregnant and now I'm moving overseas.” You know? I think it's something that we just don't think about. It's fun to have it be Veteran's Day and to have a Servicemember's wife sharing your story today. We might even talk a little bit about navigating the military healthcare system and what choices you made. We learned a little bit about that before we started recording. We've got her amazing story today. Where are you right now?Nicole: I'm in England right now. Meagan: You are in England, okay. And that's where you had your baby. Nicole: Yes. Meagan: Awesome. So England mamas, definitely listen up for sure. All mamas, really. We do have a Review of the Week so I'm going to get into that then we'll start with your first story. This is from Roxyrutt and it says, “Inspiring”. It says, “Listening to these podcasts has been truly inspiring and I have been on my own hopeful VBAC journey. Listening to other stories has been incredibly helpful in my mental preparation.” We were just talking about that before we started recording as well just how impactful these stories can be for anyone but especially during your VBAC journey. It says, “My due date is April 17th this month–” so this is obviously a little while ago. It says, “I'm hoping to have my own VBAC story to share. Thank you all for what you do.” Thank you so much, Roxyrutt, for sharing your review. As always, we love your reviews. You can email them to us at info@thevbaclink.com or you can comment “Review” on your podcast. I think it's on Apple Podcasts, Spotify– I don't know if Google allows reviews. You might just have to do a rating. But wherever you listen to your podcasts, if you can leave a review, please do so. Okay, Nicole. Let's get going on your stories. I seriously thank you so much for joining me today. Nicole: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Like we mentioned before we started recording, this podcast has been extremely inspirational to me and it really led me to having the VBAC of my dreams. Meagan: And you had a precipitous VBAC, right? Did you have a pretty precipitous VBAC if I'm remembering right? It was 2 hours or something?Nicole: Yeah. It was so quick. Meagan: Okay. We are going to talk about that. Don't let me forget about that in the end. It is something that we don't talk about a lot. Most people think about birth being a long time. Nicole: Yeah. Meagan: Yeah. Precipitous birth can come out of left field and I want to talk about that. But first of course, every VBAC starts with a C-section so let's hear about your first.Nicole: Okay, yeah. So I had my first in June 2020 so literally right as the world was shutting down. Everybody was terrified with reason, right? I go in. I remember I had my baby shower planned and everything was planning and everything was canceled. I just felt depleted and I was scared. I remember watching videos on how to have a birth and what to do and all of the birthing videos and there was like, “Here's a segment on if you have a C-section.” I was like, That will never be me. I don't have to watch this because that will never happen. That is not in my cards. That is not in my birthing plan I typed up and had signed. That is not in my cards. So I decided with my doctor that I wanted to be induced and I said at 40 weeks I had done my time. Get this baby out of me. I had committed to 40 weeks because she kept saying, “Well, we can do it at 38 weeks if you're comfortable or 39 weeks.” I was like, “Nope. I will do it until 40 weeks. I've done my time. At this point, this baby is evicted.” On June 20th, I went in for my induction. Everything went smoothly. I was progressing but not as fast as they would like so we started Pitocin. That went well. I was doing really well and all of a sudden they were like, “I think we need to break your water.” I had heard horror stories about your water breaking and it's super painful and you're miserable after it. So I was like, “Well, let's get the epidural because why would I put myself through that if they have the option to make this smooth and comfortable? Why would I sit there and not be comfortable during this?” So I got the epidural and I just laid there. I laid in bed for a really long time then at about 3:00 in the morning, I got the urge to push. I let the nurses know. They checked. They said I was at 10 centimeters. Everything was good to go. They came in at about 3:10 and I started pushing. I pushed until about 6:00 AM. At that point, at about 5:00 AM, I started getting really hot. I noticed that they had turned the temperature in the room up obviously for baby. I started getting really overwhelmed and really hot. I started to throw up. My doctor turned down the temperature. She was like, “Let's turn down the temperature. I feel like you're just getting hot.” I was like, “I'm just hot. I just don't feel so good. I'm just hot.” They turned the temperature down then a new NICU nurse came in and she turned it up. I was watching her turn it up and I was just so uncomfortable. I started throwing up again and they were like, “Well, we need to pause because everything you're doing is an epidural symptom but it's also a symptom of COVID so we're going to stop you because we have to test you. You can either continue to push–”Meagan: We have to test you.Nicole: Yeah. I had gotten tested before I went in and then during my labor 3 hours in of pushing, they literally stopped me and said, “We need to do a COVID test.” I did a COVID test and it was crazy. You see all of these doctors in scrubs and masks and then all of a sudden they come in in these inflatable suits and everybody has these– which is more terrifying. I'm already scared. Meagan: Yeah, talk about invading your space. Nicole: Yeah, then you're telling me that I have an hour until this test comes back. I can either continue to push but if I push and have my baby, you're immediately going to take her away until my results come back or I can pause, not push for the hour and just let my body do it naturally and then resume pushing if my test comes back negative and I can continue to have skin on skin and the one-on-one time with my baby. Meagan: Hashtag, eye roll. Nicole: Yeah. So during that time, I was pushing well up until the COVID test. My baby was descending correctly. I stopped. I waited an hour and something shifted to where she then twisted a little bit and she– once my test came back negative and I was able to push again– was getting stuck on my pelvic bone and I could not get her out. They were tying blankets together and my husband would hold one end of the blanket and I would push and pull the end of the blanket as hard as I could to try and get her down. I was doing everything to push this baby out. Nothing was working. I started to develop preeclampsia so that was red flag number one. Then my baby's heart rate started to drop in between each contraction which I guess means that it could be around the neck and it's more concerning if it's between contractions versus during the contraction. So after her heart rate started dropping and continuously dropped, they decided to call it an emergency C-section. I just remember feeling devastated. I remember shouting– not shouting, but crying to my husband, “I don't want this. I don't want a C-section.” My doctor was like, “I have to hear it from you that you are okay to have the C-section.” I was like, “I mean, I guess if that's the only way to get this baby out but I don't want it.” I remember feeling the pain from my C-section and feeling so depleted. I pushed from 3:00 to 6:00 then I stopped for an hour. We resumed at 7:00. We pushed from 7:00 to 9:00 and then they called the emergency C-section and I had her at 9:36. It was a lot and I was pushing hard. I just remember getting back to the room, because my mother-in-law was there, and saying, “I haven't held her yet.” I didn't want anybody to hold the baby without me holding her first. I had heard stories of people who were like, “Everybody in my family got to hold the baby before I held my baby.” I just remember crying and I cried for weeks. I just felt like my body gave up on me. My recovery was terrible and that's what my doctor kept saying. She was like, “You have both recoveries. You pushed for so long that you're recovering from pushing and then you're also recovering from your C-section.” Then because I pushed so hard and I was trying so hard, I had tore all of the right side abs so I couldn't even move my legs to get in and out of bed for 4 weeks because my whole ab muscles were just torn. I had to go see therapy for that and I remember trying to drive me and this infant to therapy sessions and I was just in pain and then the drive home– it was so hard. I just felt like I was really bonding with my baby, but I felt like I was so disconnected with myself. I just couldn't do it. I had to have therapy because I went into postpartum depression. It was the hardest moment of my life because I really just felt like everybody was like, “Oh, it's so beautiful though. Your body did its job and it birthed this healthy baby.” I just wanted to scream every time somebody said that because I was like, “But it didn't. I pushed for hours, literally hours, and it didn't do its job. I had to have my baby taken out of me.” Meagan: You didn't feel that way.Nicole: Uh-huh. Yeah. People would be like, “Well, aren't you glad that you didn't have vaginal tearing?” I was like, “No, but I had hip to hip tearing and not just through the skin. It was muscles and layers.” I felt like everybody was trying to comfort me and it just felt like I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs because I didn't feel like anybody was understanding what mentally I was going through. Meagan: Yeah. I think that happens so often in the provider world but also just in our family and friends' world. We get thrown the, “Aren't you just happy you have a healthy baby?” It's like, “Yeah, duh.” But then also that thing, “Well, aren't you glad that didn't happen to your vagina? Aren't you glad you don't have to deal with incontinence?” Or similar things where in people's minds, I don't think they realize that it's causing harm or that there are ill feelings at all. They are just saying these things, but it's like, “I don't feel like I birthed my baby and I don't feel good about it and I'm dealing with a lot of trauma physically to my body, not just even emotionally but physically to my body. No, I'm not feeling great right now and it's okay that I don't feel great. I understand that you're just trying to help and validate me maybe, I don't know.” Maybe that's what people are doing but it doesn't always feel good. Nicole: Yeah, people kept telling me to be mad at my provider. I was like, “I hear you. But at the end of the day, she's new to COVID just like we are. She's going into this trying to navigate it.” I think she did and I think she made the best calls, but everybody was like, “Why are you mad at yourself? Be mad at this person.” I was like, it wasn't her fault necessarily. She didn't know what was happening. COVID was so new and it was just blowing up in Utah. It was just this big thing and it seemed like nobody was listening to the fact that I was upset with my body and how my body handled this. Everybody was just like, “Well, it's a healthy baby. Blame this person or that person. It's COVID.” I was like, “But what about me? You're not listening to me.” That was so tough. I felt like I was screaming it and people were trying to silence it without purposely trying to silence it. Meagan: Right. Okay, so I have some questions for you. So when they were offering you sheets and it sounds like you were maybe playing some tug-of-war. What I call it in my doula mind is tug-of-war where you are pulling and tugging and all of those things. Obviously, they were really trying to help this baby get out vaginally and things like that. Did they offer you changing of positions even though you had that epidural? Were they like, “Hey, let's try to get you on your side or get you on your hands and knees?” You said you kind of felt your C-section a little bit, right? Is that what you said? So it maybe wasn't as deep of an epidural so maybe you could have done hands and knees or something? Did they ever offer anything like that?Nicole: They didn't. They did try the vacuum three times but it immediately would just pop right off of her head because she was shifted. Meagan: Asynclitic a little bit, maybe?Nicole: Yeah, so they said that after three times it was unsafe at that point and it was going to have the same results. Nothing was going to happen. I didn't want to do the vacuum, but once we were at that position, I was like, “Let's just try it.” I agreed to three times and then we were done. Keep it safe. That's when we started doing the tug-of-war and we did that for a long time. My husband was holding it and he was like, “The first time, you almost knocked me down because I wasn't expecting you.” I was pulling so hard. I just wanted this baby out. Yeah, they didn't move me in any positions. I was just on my back. Now that I know better, I wish I would have tried. Meagan: But again, you didn't know what you didn't know. For listeners, if you are in a situation where your baby might be tilted to the side asynclitic or transverse and maybe you have done tug-of-war and things like this, and even then, sometimes it doesn't work. For some reason, the baby is where they are, but a little bit of a tilt to the side especially if there is one side where they feel the baby's head or try to get on hands and knees to change that pelvic dynamic can help. But I love that they were like, “Let's do tug-of-war. Let's do these things.” I love that providers are still encouraging other things in other ways. It sounds like they really did try and avoid a Cesarean by doing a vacuum and doing the tug-of-war. That is super awesome. I was also wondering if you have any tips for moms who have maybe pushed for a really long time like you did and had essentially have vaginal pelvic floor trauma and also gone down the Cesarean route. Is there anything you would suggest to moms? Or even for moms who maybe had a C-section and had this possibly happen. Yeah, do you have any tips that you would suggest to help with healing both physically and mentally?Nicole: Yeah. One of the biggest things that we did which was incredibly helpful– I'll give you a funny story after– but one of the biggest things that we did was my husband would get out of bed. We breastfed. He would hand me baby. I would breastfeed her and burp her and then he would get out of bed, change her, and put her back down. That was incredibly helpful because all I had to do was go from laying to sitting. I couldn't pick my legs up to move them out of the bed without it being excruciating, so having him just help me sit up and hold baby made a huge difference. Having that support person there to help do the heavy lifting technically to get in and out of bed was next-level game changer. It helped me. I got to sleep more because he changed the diaper. We took turns then he would sleep during feedings. We were really changing. I do remember going to the pediatrician and my husband talking to the pediatrician and I was like, “Wrong person to ask.” He was like, “She keeps waking in the middle of the night and rocking holding this invisible baby and bouncing it.” It was because I would forget that I gave the baby back to my husband. Meagan: Yeah, because you're so tired. Nicole: I'm so tired and he would be like, “It's freaking me out.” I picked up my little Yorkie and I was rocking her. My husband was like, “That's the dog.” I thought I had fell asleep and the baby was next to me so I picked up the dog. I remember the husband talking to the pediatrician and I was like, “That is the wrong doctor. He knows nothing about my mental state,” and him being like, “It's terrifying,” but it really did help me. It might have scared him, but it just was so helpful and I just felt like I didn't have to worry about dropping the baby walking in and out of bed. It helped speed up my recovery because I wasn't constantly getting in and out at all hours of the night. Meagan: Yeah, that is so impactful. I love that you pointed that out. I know that some postpartum doulas do that too but if your partner is able to help you in that way, I also think it's really great because that helps them bond with the baby too. I mean, they might not be feeding the baby but they are changing and carrying and soothing the baby back to sleep as well. I love that. I love that you did that. How long did you do that until you were feeling better and getting in and out of bed was feasible?Nicole: It took me about 3 weeks until I felt comfortable and confident. That was another thing. I could feel comfortable but wasn't confident to get in and out of bed without worrying about a sharp pain or something glitching or stumbling. Meagan: Mhmm. I'm so proud of you guys for being a team and making sure that you took care of that. Nicole: We'll keep him. Meagan: You needed to take care of yourself and I love that you were like, “This is what we need. This is what we need to do.”Awesome. Well, before we get into your next story which is amazing, we're going to take a quick moment and listen to me, I guess, about our sponsor. Okay, and we're back. Let's get onto this VBAC story. Nicole: So being military, we had decided my daughter was so great and so fun at about 8 months or 9 months and we were like, “Let's do this again. Let's have another one. We want them close in age. Let's try again.” So she turned 1 in June. In May, we decided to go on a long weekend because my husband had just graduated college. He's military and was going to school which is a whole other added pressure. Meagan: That's a lot. Nicole: Yeah. We flew our mother-in-law out. She stayed with our baby for Memorial Day Weekend and him and I went to Tahoe for the weekend. We decided starting in May that we were going to start trying again. We were like, on May 1st, we're going to start trying for a baby. We get back from Tahoe on June 1st. I think it was June 1st. It was right at the end of May and the beginning of June. His coworkers were like, “Guess what? You have orders to RAF Lakenheath in England.” My husband was like, “No, I don't. You're kidding. I don't. That's a joke.”He called me and he was like, “I have bad news.” We had just dropped my car off at the dealership that morning so I was like, “Oh no, what we thought was a minor issue was huge.” He was like, “We have orders to England.” I was like, “That's not terrible news. That's the best news I've heard all month.” He was like, “No, that's terrible,” because he was planning on getting out of the military. Meagan: Oh no. Nicole: We had 2 weeks to decide if he was going to stay in and take these orders or if he was going to get out. We spent 2 weeks going back and forth if this was the best option for our family and if this what we wanted. What could we do over there? We decided that we would go overseas if we decided to wait on having a baby. We cut it off. No more babies at the beginning of June. We were like, “We're done. We're going to have our one. Towards the end of our 4 years is when we are going to start trying for our second. That way, we can get back here and have our baby back in the States.” We were like, “We'll travel with our one child because it's easier to travel with one than two. We'll travel with one kid. We'll do our 4 years there and when we come back, we'll have our next baby.” It wasn't ideal because we wanted them close in age, but at least we were traveling and eventually, we would have our second. He took the orders on June 2nd. I was prepping for my daughter's first birthday. We were having a pool party. I was like, okay. Her birthday's on June 20th. It is June 16th. I wonder when I'm going to get my period because I don't want to be on my period and swimming. Meagan: During the pool party, yeah. Nicole: I looked at my app and I was 7 days late. I was like, What? I don't think that's right, but let's just take a test. I took a test and I was pregnant. So, the joke was on us. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Nicole: Yes. We found out in June that we were having our second and we were due to be in England in November. So at the end of the month in November was our DEROS date or the day that we were supposed to be in England and he was supposed to be signed onto the base. We decided that we would just pack up and do this all while I was pregnant. We moved over there on November 15th. Once I got here, I was like, Well, what do I do now? I am halfway through my pregnancy. I have nothing because COVID again, had stopped all of our furniture stuff because the ports were closed and that whole issue of everything being shut down. The world was still closed so we were like, “What do we do?” We had sent our stuff at the beginning of October to arrive in England and they were like, “Well, you're not expecting anything.” We had bought all of our baby stuff before because we were like, “Well, we'll just buy it here and ship it over there, and then we won't have to worry about trying to buy it over there.” There are different sizes of cribs there, and the bedding size is different. I don't want people to buy us sheets then all of a sudden it's UK sizes and it doesn't fit and it's unsafe for baby. It was a big thing. We bought all of our stuff. I was ready to have it. Then we got here and they were like, “It looks like you're not going to get any of your household goods until April.”Meagan: November to April?Nicole: October to April because we shipped in October. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Nicole: Uh-huh. Yeah. We were living in temporary furniture that was terrible. We had to go out and buy blow-up mattresses because those were more comfortable than the beds that they gave us. It was wild. Then I'm trying to find a doctor. I'm trying to find a provider. I don't know what I'm doing. I've called all of the birthing doulas because of the podcast that I had been religiously listening to. I was like, “I know what a doula is. That's what I need.” They were all booked up because by the time we got here in November and I got the chance to interview them, they were all booked up for the month of February when my baby was due.So now I'm sitting here, “Well, what do I do? Do I have the baby on base? Do I have the baby off base?” I don't know. I don't know anything about where we're living. I don't know anything about the hospitals. I don't know anything. I'm just guessing off of people's posts on Facebook, but they are so hit-and-miss. Somebody is going to post a really great story, then all of a sudden, somebody makes a post of a traumatizing story which scares you. It's like, was the good story one in a million, or was the traumatizing story one in a million? I was just navigating this. I started going to my doctor's appointments on base because I knew that Tricare covered the OB/GYN. I was trying to navigate how it would cover overseas. I had to make a lot of phone calls and all of that fun stuff. I was like, “Well, I'll just start on base and see if I need to transfer off base.” On base was okay. It's way different seeing a military doctor than it is seeing a provider who chooses this field and who wants this field. All of my prenatal care was okay. There were a few things that I wasn't a fan of and if we weren't talking about it, I could tell you what is the strep B test, right? Meagan: Group B strep?Nicole: Mhmm. They test you. They swab you to see if you have a skin infection to see if you need to be on antibiotics. In the states, my doctor performed that on me. Here, they gave me a test tube and told me I had 5 minutes to complete it. I was like, “What? I can't even see down there let alone swab myself.” I just remember crying in the thing and begging people to do it and they were like, “We don't do it. You have to perform it on yourself.” My husband was home watching our toddler, so I had no support with me. It was definitely different. I looked at the hospitals off base and I was really unsure with the way that I had them. You would give birth in a birthing suite with your husband, then they would send him home and move you to this big room with other moms who had their babies. I was really navigating, what is the best fit for me and how am I going to have this baby and my VBAC? I want this VBAC. Who is going to advocate for me? I don't have a doula. I'm doing this by myself. My husband only knows so much. He doesn't understand it all, so he is only retaining half of what I'm saying. I made it to 40 weeks. I was like, “Get this baby out of here.” My mother-in-law was here to watch my daughter. That's another thing. You have to find childcare for your toddler because you don't have family around to watch your baby. We were so new here. We didn't have friends here to watch our baby. My mother-in-law luckily came out and made it for the birth. She watched my daughter. I decided that since she was here, and I needed to get this baby out before she left so I had childcare, I would do a membrane sweep because I was 40 weeks and I think I was 2 days at that point. I did a membrane sweep. That was unsuccessful at 40 weeks and 2 days. I did a second one. That was very successful. We had my membrane sweep in the morning. I remember just doing lunges and squats all day long. We took my daughter to a forest. She just ran, and I did lunges behind her. There are videos of my husband following my daughter around, and I'm in the background just doing lunges and doing anything to keep active, to keep this baby going. I went to bed that night on February 23rd. I went to bed at about 9:00 PM. I woke up at 2:00 AM. It was about 2:30 when I woke up. I felt this really sharp pain in my stomach. I thought he had kicked my bladder, so I stood up on the bed. It was like a movie. You heard the gush, and then all of a sudden, water was just trickling down my legs. I was like, “Well, I still feel like I have to pee, so that was definitely my water breaking not me having to go to the bathroom and him kicking my bladder,” which signaled me having to go to the bathroom. My husband had just come to bed at about 2:00 AM. He had only been asleep for about 30 minutes. I was like, “Hey, no rush. This is going to take hours.” Again, nobody thinks that labor happens fast. I woke him up. I was like, “No rush. I just need you to go downstairs and get my military ID,” because at this point, I decided to have him on base. I was like, “I just need you to get my military ID because they are going to ask for that information in labor and delivery. Let them know that my water broke and that we would be in in a few hours. No rush. I'm going to take a shower. I'm going to go back to sleep. I'm just going to sleep this off. We will wake up in the morning, say goodbye to Naomi, and then go to the hospital.” Again, I had told my daughter that I would see her in the morning, and then I left the room that night saying, “Why did I say that? There's no guarantee.” I had been saying for weeks, “I hope you sleep good,” and that's it. Then of course, the one time that I accidentally said, “I'll see you in the morning,” I wasn't seeing her in the morning. He calls Labor and Delivery and they were like, “Well, because of her past, we want her in now.” I was like, “No. No. I don't want to labor in a hospital. I want to labor as long as I can at home. I want to do this by myself. I want to be comfortable. I don't want people to tell me what I should be doing then it going against what I want to do. I really want to do this by myself.” He's arguing with Labor and Delivery. He was like, “Well, let me talk to my wife, and I will call you back.” I was like, “I'm going to get in the shower real quick and wash myself off because my water just broke.” Meagan: Had you started contracting at this point or just trickling? Nicole: Very minimal. It was every 5 minutes. It was very minimal, nothing crazy. I could totally go clean my car at this point. I was walking on water. My water broke. I'm great. I feel good. I feel nothing. I'm in the shower. All I did was put shampoo in my hair. I didn't even get it rinsed out, and all of a sudden, my contractions went from 0 to 100. I could not breathe. I could not talk through them. I could not even do anything. I felt like my mind was so focused on the pain. My husband was trying to ask me questions, and I couldn't even register what he was saying through each contraction. I told him, “Call them back because we are on our way now. I need to get out of the shower. I need you to throw conditioner in my hair while I have this next contraction. I need to rinse it out, then we need to go.” He's trying to talk to them and put conditioner in my hair. I'm having a contraction. I put my pants on, and as I'm pulling them up, another contraction hit. Then they started going from having a contraction for a minute and a half to a break for 30 seconds, and then immediately back into another contraction for a minute and a half. I was like, “What is happening?” I never felt this with my daughter. I had the epidural. Things went so smoothly and so slowly that it was cake. This was the next level. I waddled into the car. I remember sitting in the front seat and saying, “I can't do this.” I climbed into my toddler's car seat because I had the infant car seat up, and I couldn't fit in between the two car seats, so I had to sit with my knees in my toddler's car seat. I was holding onto the back headrest for support and just standing there. I was on my knees, chest against the back of her car seat, and I'm just holding onto this headrest with every contraction. I'd have three in a row. I'd have one for a minute and thirty, a break for 30 seconds, a minute and thirty, a break for 30 seconds, a minute and thirty, then I'd have a two-minute break, and then they would kick back up again. My husband was just flying. The roads were closed on our normal fastway to base. We lived 30 minutes away, so it was an extra 15 minutes to get to base. He was flying at 2:50 in the morning at this point. I'm sorry, it was 3:50 in the morning at this point. We get to the hospital at 4:05. I am hugging a tree outside because my husband couldn't figure out how to open the wheelchair. Poor guy, he was trying so hard to help me. Meagan: I'm sure. It was a frantic moment. Yeah. Nicole: Yeah. He couldn't figure out how to open it. He had to go to the ER and get somebody in the ER to help him. They were wheeling me up, and I remember yelling at them because they kept saying, “We'll have to do triage and see if you're in active labor before we can bring your husband back.” I remember telling this poor ER nurse, “You'd better not split my husband and I up. I am not doing triage. We are going into a room. We are having this baby.” She was like, “Ma'am, I think we're just going to put you in a room. I don't think we are going to need triage.” I get into the room. I am continuously having contractions. They tried to stop me to do a COVID test. I death-glared this guy because he wanted to do a COVID test on me. I was like, “Been there, done that. Not doing that again.” I remember them trying to put an IV in my hand. I was like, “I don't need an IV. This kid is coming out of me. I know I tested positive for the strep test, but I don't need an IV. He's already out. There's nothing that this is going to help.”I get up on the bed. They tried to get me to lay on my back to push and I couldn't. I remember my husband was like, “No, that's not how she wanted to push. She wants to push with her knees on the bed and her chest against the back holding on. That's how she wants to deliver him.”He was advocating for me which I was so grateful for because I felt the entire time that he didn't know what I wanted because he didn't understand my terms, he didn't understand why, he didn't understand the VBAC world, so I felt like I was talking to thin air. So for him to sit there and be like, “No, that is not how she is going to deliver this baby. She wants to be on her knees hunkering down.” I did. I got up there. I pushed two pushes, and he was out. His hand was stuck to his face. Meagan: Nuchal hand, wow. Nicole: He was holding onto his face. He got a little stuck because of his elbow, so after I got his head out, they made me flip over and deliver him on my back which I was totally okay with because we had done the hard part. I remember my husband saying that was the weirdest thing watching me turn around with this baby hanging out. He was like, “You just flipped around like it was nothing.” I was like, “I knew he was fine.” I tore because his hand was up and it was added pressure. But yeah, he came out in two pushes. He was born by 4:36, so 2 hours and I had my baby. It was absolutely wild. I just remember that I had him. I was just in the chaos of it, and about two minutes later, my husband was like, “Nicole, you had a VBAC.” I just started shouting it. I was like, “I had a VBAC.” It didn't even dawn on me in the craziness of it all that I pushed this baby out of me. I was just like, “Is he okay? Is he healthy? Does everything look good? Are you sure he has 10 toes and 10 fingers? Is everything good?” My husband was like, “Nicole, you had a VBAC. You really did it.” Yeah. It was crazy. He came so fast which was unexpected and nobody tells you about that. It was just wild, but I had a VBAC. Meagan: You had a VBAC with a nuchal hand too. That can be a little tricky sometimes, right? That is amazing, but I love just how intuitively from the very beginning, your body too was like, hands and knees. Forward-leaning position. That's what your body intuitively was telling you to do to get this baby here. I love that you just went with that. I love that he advocated for you despite not really understanding. I can relate to that. My husband did not understand why I wanted to do what I wanted to do, but it's so nice to have them be there for you in that ending moment when it really matters so much. Nicole: Absolutely, yeah. I was shocked. When he started saying it and he was like, “No. She wants to push like this,” I was like, “What? You listened?” Meagan: You listened. I love that. Oh, well thank you so much for sharing that story. Huge congrats and man, precipitous labor like you said, people don't talk about it. It does happen. It's funny because I had a long, 42-hour labor. Someone asked me, “Would you rather have a long labor that took forever like that or would you rather have a precipitous labor?” I had said that I really wanted a fourth and I just hoped it went faster. I don't know. I don't know which one I would prefer because long is exhausting and hard, but man, precipitous– and I have seen them. I have supported them as a doula and seen 2-3 hour-long labors. It's a lot of change in a body to happen in such a short period of time, and it's so intense. I mean, it is the next level. So, I don't know. Nicole: It's crazy. It's crazy that they are so fast, but your body just knows what it's doing. That blew my mind. With my daughter, I felt like I was trying. I was listening to everybody, and they were telling me what to do. I was just following suit, but with this one, there were no decisions being made. My body was like, “This is how it's going to happen and that's it.” I remember shouting for the epidural when I got in the hospital room. I was like, “I want that epidural. Call the anesthesiologist now.” They were like, “Honey, I think he's already here. I don't think we have time for that.” My body was like, “No, you're not sitting down. You're not going to do this. This is how–” I didn't even have time to focus on my breathing. My body was just doing it itself which is crazy thinking back on it. My body just knew. I was so down on myself thinking my body had failed me, but then having a super fast labor, my body was just like, “Nope, this is how we're going to get it done and that's it.” Meagan: Okay, so with precipitous labor too, like you said, it went from 0 to 100 like that. Do you have any tips for moms with that experience of that type of intensity? Obviously, listening to your body and getting to your birthing location on time. I'm assuming that's continuing. Sometimes, I feel like it can be really intense when it feels like they are ramping up and then they piddle out. But it does, it seems to ramp up, like you said, from 0 to 100 and it hangs on. It holds on tight and it is not stopping.Nicole: Yeah. Definitely listen to your body. I felt like I spoke up a lot with what was happening at one point. I've always been this way where there are certain sounds that make me nauseous if I'm under a lot of stress or if I'm feeling sick, so my husband talking– it's funny because he was like, “Say your affirmations. You are brave. You can do this.” His talking was making me nauseous. I was like, “Stop. Stop talking. Although it is what I want to hear, it is not helping.” Being super open about what was happening like when he went to get the wheelchair, I was like, “I can't sit in this car. I have to get out.” He was like, “Just sit in the car. Let me help you.” Being super aware and open about what I was feeling and what my body was telling me to do because going up and holding onto this tree, and every time I walk past this tree at medical, I'm like, “I almost gave birth right there had we not gotten that wheelchair open.” Hunkering down on that tree gave so much more relief that it was sitting in the car waiting for him. Although, I know that the car probably would have been the safest option for me rather than the tree with dirt and bushes–Meagan: Hey, that's actually pretty cool if that happened. Nicole: Right? But knowing what it was and being communicative. Even through all the chaos, every second that I could, I was saying, “This is what I need right now. This is what I'm feeling.” That was helpful not only for myself mentally because I didn't have the option. Things were just happening, but mentally being aware, and also allowing my husband to help me and support me where I needed was also really helpful. Meagan: I love that. Speak up. Follow your body. Have an awesome partner to help guide you through. I think too like what you said earlier, he listened. That goes with speaking up, talking about our feelings, and talking about our desires. Even if you don't think it's being understood or really heard, it probably is. Nicole: Yeah. It was just so crazy to me with him being like, “I'm so confused why somebody would want to push like that,” then him being like, “No, she's going to push like that.” I was like, “What? You remembered.” Even in all the craziness, and he thought for sure when I told him to stop when we were driving, he thought I meant to stop the car because he thought I was going to have the baby before I could finish after my contraction, “Stop talking.” Yeah, so even through all of the craziness and his mind going rampant, because he's going through it too thinking, “Am I going to deliver this baby on the side of the road?” Now that we're in a different country, who do we call? Do we call 9-9-9 or do we call 9-1-1? Do we call base or do we call locals? We're in the middle of the country. His mindset is going, so having him say that in the craziness was even more powerful. Meagan: Mhmm. Oh my gosh. Well, huge congrats again. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. I do know that it's going to impact someone out there, probably hundreds and thousands of people to be honest, so yeah. Thank you so much. Do you have any other tips or any advice that you'd like to give to any moms in regards to VBAC, in regards to birth, in regards to preparation, or in regards to navigating military changes? Delivering on base or off base? Are there any other suggestions that you'd like to give? Nicole: I would say to really trust your instinct. I was obsessed with my first doctor with my daughter and she was my second daughter going into this. Obviously, I couldn't keep her. I tried to get her to come over here, but she wouldn't. Trust in your instinct in what you think is right for you and your baby. It's so interesting to where you believe that this is one thing and this is how it should be, but then when your instincts are kicking in and they are telling you, “This is what's best for you and your baby,” it's a whole other path. I just recommend to listen. Listen to your body. Listen to what your gut is telling you. It will fall into place. Things are scary and sometimes things are wild, especially with the military and moving in the middle of a pregnancy. It is terrifying. I've known spouses who stay after and they bring their baby over when their baby is 8 weeks old and can finally get a passport. But knowing that you can do it overseas, I definitely think it's special because your partner is there. It's just a crazy ride, but if you trust yourself, your self will always guide you in the right way. Meagan: Yeah. We've been saying it since this podcast started in 2018. Your intuition is so impactful. Trust it all the way. Go with it. I love that advice. Thank you. Nicole: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

In this explainer episode, we've asked Nicole Chai, Research and Development Bioinformatician at Genomics England, to explain what X-linked inheritance is. You can also find a series of short videos explaining some of the common terms you might encounter about genomics on our YouTube channel. If you've got any questions, or have any other topics you'd like us to explain, feel free to contact us on info@genomicsengland.co.uk. You can read the transcript below or download it here: https://www.genomicsengland.co.uk/assets/documents/Podcast-transcripts/How-does-X-linked-inheritance-work.docx  Florence: How does X-linked inheritance work? I'm joined by Nicole Chai, Research and Development Bioinformatician for Genomics England, to find out more. So firstly, Nicole, can you explain a bit about the X and Y chromosomes?   Nicole: Sure. So, the X and Y chromosomes are what we call sex chromosomes. And chromosomes are packages of DNA in our cells that are inherited from our parents, and they contain information about our physical and biological traits.  Some examples of traits that are determined by our chromosomes include what colour our hair is and what colour our eyes are. And each of these individual traits are determined by smaller sections on the chromosome called genes. Genes can also determine what medical conditions we may inherit from our parents.  As humans, we all typically have 23 pairs of chromosomes in each of our cells. One of these pairs consists of the sex chromosomes, and as their name suggests, sex chromosomes determine sex of an individual. And typically, females will have two X chromosomes and males will have one X and one Y chromosome.  Florence: So then, what do we mean by the term X-linked condition?  Nicole: So, an X-linked condition means that the condition is associated with genetic changes on the X chromosome. And what we mean when we say genetic changes are changes to the normal sequence of DNA on the gene. And this can sometimes lead to medical disorders.  Florence: Do you have a specific example of an X-linked condition?   Nicole: Sure. So, an example of an X-linked condition is Duchenne muscular dystrophy.  And with this condition you get a progressive loss of muscle due to the lack of a protein known as dystrophin. Another example of an X-linked condition is red-green colour blindness. And this is where people affected with the condition can't see shades of red and green the way most people see them.   Florence: Could you explain how X-linked conditions are inherited?   Nicole: Sure. So, for many conditions, there are two ways they can be inherited, either dominantly or recessively. Dominant inheritance is usually when you just need one copy of the gene to be affected by the condition, whereas recessive inheritance is when you need two copies of the gene to be affected by the condition.  However, this works slightly differently with X-linked conditions, and most X-linked conditions are inherited recessively.  Florence: So why does inheritance work differently for X-linked conditions?  Nicole: So the reason that inheritance works differently for X-linked conditions is down to the differences between sex chromosomes, between females and males. As females have two X chromosomes and males have X and Y, this means that for recessive excellent conditions, males only need one altered gene to have the condition.  So, because males only have one X chromosome, if they inherit a faulty copy of a recessive gene, they don't have another healthy copy to compensate.  On the other hand, as females have two X chromosomes, if they inherit just one faulty copy, they do have a healthy one that can compensate for that one. So as a result, what we tend to see is that males are more commonly affected by X-linked recessive conditions.  Florence: That was Nicole Chai explaining the term X-linked inheritance. If you'd like to hear more explainer episodes like this, you can find them on our website www.genomicsengland.co.uk. Thank you for listening. 

In dieser Podcast-Folge von "Vision trifft Business - Der Klartext Podcast" spricht Christina Schmautz mit Nicole Völker.Nicole ist DIE Expertin im deutschsprachigen Raum, wenn es um das Innere-Kind-Arbeit geht, vor allem im Zusammenhang mit persönlicher Erfüllung, beruflichem Erfolg und Geld.Sie ist systemische Aufstellungsleiterin, Hypnose-Coach und hat ihre eigene Methoden entwickelt, damit Menschen den Glauben an sich wiederfinden und ihr inneres Kind heilen, um eine tiefe Verbindung zu sich selbst herzustellen.Aufgrund ihrer eigenen Geschichte und der Erfahrungen mit deinen Klienten weisst Nicole: So viele Menschen sind völlig abgeschnitten von sich selbst. Dies führt zu vielfältigen Herausforderungen im Leben sowie gesundheitlichen Beeinträchtigungen.Nach der Zusammenarbeit mit ihr gehen ihre Klienten erfolgreich und erfüllt IHREN eigenen Weg – unabhängig von ihren Prägungen.In dieser Episode gewährt uns Nicole einen Blick hinter die Kulissen ihrer Arbeit und erzählt von ihrem eigenen ganz persönlichen Weg als Unternehmerin, der in der Transportbranche begann und über die Finanzdienstleistung hin zur Inneren-Kind-Arbeit führte.Begleite mich in dieser Episode und lass dich von Nicoles faszinierendem Weg und ihrem Mut inspirieren.Folge Nicole, um mehr von ihrer wertvollen Arbeit und ihrer inspirierenden Reise zu erfahren:Webseite: https://nicolevoelker.com/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ShareFinanceInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicolevoelkerLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-völker-b3625a112/

Rounding Up Season 1 | Episode 3 – Recording Student Thinking During a Mathematics Discussion Guest: Dr. Nicole Garcia Mike Wallus: If you're anything like me, learning to record students' mathematical thinking might best be described as on-the-job training, which meant trial and error, and a lot of practice. Our guest on today's podcast is Nicole Garcia, the co-author of an article, published in Mathematics Teacher, that explores the practice of recording student thinking, and offers insights and some principles for making them as productive as possible. Welcome to the podcast, Nicole. Nicole Garcia: Thank you for having me. Mike: So you and your co-authors start the article by acknowledging that representing and recording student thinking—when you're in the moment, in a public space, with students—it's challenging, even for veteran teachers. And I suspect that most teachers would agree and appreciate the recognition that this is a skill that takes time and it takes practice. What makes this work challenging and why is it worth investing time to get better at it? Nicole: Well, so I think you said a lot in your question that points to why this is really difficult work, right? First of all, it's in the moment. We can't predict what students are going to say. We can do some anticipatory work. We might have guesses. And as we move along in our careers, we might have gathered some really good guesses about what students might have to say, but you never can tell in the moment. So unexpected things come up. Students' phrasing can be really different from time to time, even if we're familiar with an idea. And we're also standing in front of a room full of children, and we're trying to manage a lot in the moment—while we're listening, while we're interpreting those ideas. And then we're trying to figure out: What do we even write down from this mass of ideas that was shared with us? So that's a lot to coordinate, to manage, to think about in the moment. But it's really critical work because part of our goal as mathematics teachers is to build collective knowledge, to support children in being able to listen to, make sense of, interpret one another's ideas, to learn from each other, and to build on one another. And so if we want to make that happen, we need to support making students' ideas accessible to everyone in the room. Mike: Hmm. Nicole: And listening is only one part of that, right? If you think about what it takes to make sense of ideas, it takes multiple representations—those are things that we're working on in math. So we need the kids in classrooms to have access to the words that children are speaking. We need them to have access to visual representations of the ideas that are being shared. We need them to have access to the ways that we typically record those things in mathematics—the symbolic notation that we typically use. And we need that to happen all at once if we want kids to be able to unpack, make sense of, and work with others' ideas. So it's really important work. And I think it's worth investing the time in to get better at this because of the power of having children learn from one another and feel the value of their mathematical ideas. Mike: You know, as you were speaking, part of what I was doing is making a mental checklist from principles to actions. And I felt like, check one: asking purposeful questions. Check two: connecting mathematical representations. I mean, as you describe this, so much of what we see as really productive practice is wrapped up in this event that takes place when teachers get together and listen to students and try to capture those ideas.  Nicole: And that capturing is really important if we want those ideas to stay with us, right? Like, I think about the number of times that I've been in a discussion with a group of people—it may have been in a class, it may have been in another space—and the whole thing happens. And when I leave, sometimes I wonder, ‘What just happened? What did we think about together? What ideas did we engage in?' And I can't hold onto them. And recording on the board in the public space offers an opportunity for those ideas to stay with us, for us to hold onto them, for us to revisit and come back to them. So it's critical for continued learning and mathematical growth.  Mike: Absolutely. So this particular part of the article that you wrote—as I was reading it, and you were describing the challenge of recording student thinking during a discussion—this particular statement really struck me, and I'm just going to read it as it was in the article. ‘The thinking being recorded is not the teacher's own, requiring the teacher to set aside their own strategies and interpretations of the math work, to focus on representing student thinking.' I would love if you could talk about why you felt like it was so important to explicitly call this out in the article.  Nicole: Yeah. So I think that there are a couple of things here that are important. One is that, as a teacher, you're thinking always about the trajectory of your lesson, the trajectory of student learning, where you want to be and steer. And so a lot of times, when we're listening, we're listening for something in particular, right? We have a plan in mind, we have an idea, we know where we want go, and we're listening really carefully for a catchphrase, a vocabulary word—something that we recognize, that we can pick up and pull into the discussion and move forward, right?…and march on, and accomplish our lesson. And a lot of times that kind of natural way of listening is not aligned with what students are actually trying to communicate, because the ways that children express themselves—in particular around mathematics—are really different than the ways that adults, who know math well, express their ideas about mathematics. So there's a lot to hear in the language that they're using, in the trajectory of their talk, that's both difficult to follow and difficult to figure out what the big idea is that they're communicating. And when we're listening for our own understanding, our own ways of working, our own strategies, we often miss what children are actually bringing to the discussion, to the conversation. We miss their thinking.  I think about the number of times where I've been a student in class and I've said something and the teacher rephrases it in the way that they really wish that I would have said the thing.  Mike: Yes.  Nicole: And it's not, like, it's not even my idea anymore, but you kind of nod and you go along with it. And so I think, you know, as a teacher, you get those cues that, yes, you did just rephrase what the kid said. They just said, ‘OK.' And you record that thing and you move on. And so I think reflection—checking back in with children about whether or not you heard their idea, whether or not the representation that you're putting on the board actually matches what they were thinking about—is really, really critical. Because it isn't your thinking. It's the child's thinking and we want to make sure that that's what we're representing. Mike: Yeah. I read this and I will confess that a part of me thought back to the points in time when I was teaching kindergarten and first grade. And I suspect anyone who's taught and tried to record students' thinking has been in a spot where you have kind of a pathway that you're thinking the learning will follow. You have an idea of how the big ideas might roll themselves out.  Nicole: Um-hm.  Mike: And I think what I found myself thinking is, there are certainly many, many times where I felt like I was true to student's ideas, but I was really conscious that there were definitely points where, what I heard and what I represented differed, probably because I was thinking to myself, ‘Gosh, I really want this model to kind of come forward.' And the truth was, the kids weren't taking me there and I was trying to force it. I guess what I'm saying is, it really caused me to think back on my own practice and really kind of reconsider—even when I'm doing professional learning with other adults and children—the need to listen, as opposed to kind of have the path sketched out in my own mind.  Nicole: Well, it's really difficult to do, because sometimes as a teacher, you really do need the lesson to go in a particular direction. There are all kinds of constraints around teaching. And I think what's important is knowing that you've made that decision. ( laughs ) Right? Because sometimes you might. You might…  Mike: Yes!  Nicole: …rephrase it a particular way because that's the move that you need to make in that moment. And I think that sometimes that can be OK. We need to give ourselves permission as teachers to make the best choices for our whole class and the students whose ideas are being shared in the moment. But I think knowing that that's what you're doing is really important,  Mike: Right. Like, it's a conscious decision to say, ‘I've heard that. I'm going to take this in a different direction.' Rather than just imagining, ‘I've heard that. I'm going to represent it.' And not kind of questioning whether what's being represented is the student's thinking or your own thinking.  Nicole: Right. Or even better, making the decision that, ‘I heard, what that child said. And I'm going to say back to them,' for example, ‘so I think what I heard you say is…bop, bop, bop. Can I try an idea out?', and actually sharing the idea that you have on tap. Or saying something like, ‘You know, I've heard some of my students in the past say something really similar. Can I share that idea with you? And let's see what's similar or different.' So thinking about how can you get that idea out there, that you really wanted to record, that the student didn't say, in a way that isn't totally disingenuous—pretending you heard something that you didn't hear.  Mike: Right. You're kind of acknowledging that they said something and you're…. It's powerful; the language you used is really subtle. But it's essentially saying, ‘I've got something that I'd like to contribute that your idea made me think about,' or…  Nicole: Um-hm.  Mike: …that you want to also put out there. And I think that subtlety is important. Because as you were describing that feeling of, ‘I said something. Teacher revoiced it in a way that was totally different,' and kind of the bad aftertaste that that left. Nicole: Yeah.  Mike: You know, that subtle ask—of the child—for permission, really kind of shifts that dynamic.  Nicole: It's saying, ‘I value your idea and let's consider this other idea.' It's OK for teachers to put ideas out in the space.  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: But acknowledging that that isn't what you heard and you're going to record this other thing, or maybe you record both of them…  Mike: Right!  Nicole: …and talk about the similarities and differences.  Mike: So I'd love to shift just a little bit and talk about the role that recording can play in developing students' mathematical vocabulary. And I'm wondering if you could talk about the ways that recording can help students make connections between their informal language and the more formal mathematical vocabulary that we want them to start to be able to use. Can you talk a little bit about what that might look like?  Nicole: Yeah. So I think that there are a couple of ideas to be thinking about. One is that we actually know a lot about how children develop vocabulary. We know that that's a progression and that students need opportunities to play around with ideas, to have something to hang that vocabulary word on.  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: Once they have the kind of core idea and they have some informal language—some way to describe that idea—that's the prime place to be able to introduce the formal mathematical vocabulary. They're able to make connections to that big picture, that core idea that they've come up with. They have some informal language to go around with it. And now they have a real name for it—the formal mathematical name for it. We also know that one of the ways that students remember and are able to recall—and use appropriately—vocabulary is by having a visual representation that goes along with that mathematical vocabulary.  Mike: Hmm.  Nicole: So one way that representations and recordings can support students in learning that vocabulary is first, by having them build some representations that go with that vocabulary word, but then also having those labels on the representations that make their way onto our boards.  Mike: Ah, yep.  Nicole: In addition, you know, when we do things like dual labeling, um, where maybe in our classroom space, we've named something with someone's name, right? As we're beginning to talk about an idea, we might call it Diego's idea, Diego's strategy. Then when it makes our way onto the board, we can label it with ‘Diego's strategy' and the formal mathematical name for it so students are able to connect the of things. But even if it's not a student's name as the name of the strategy, there's lots of informal language that students bring to mathematical ideas. They have to have a way to talk about things. And so we can dual label those ideas on our board to help students make that connection and to let them walk between using their informal language and using that formal mathematical language, and being OK with that.  Mike: So just to go back… Describe dual labeling again, because I think I've got an idea of it, but I want to make sure in my own mind I've captured that correctly. How does that work?  Nicole: Let's imagine that we have a strategy—a student has shared a subtraction strategy in our discussion, and I've represented that strategy on the board, say, using a number line.  Mike: Okay.  Nicole: And, say, the kids are calling it scooting—they're scooting the numbers to make this subtraction problem. So I might actually write on my board, like, on the left hand side of the strategy ‘scooting,'…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …and then on the right hand side, label it ‘shifting the numbers' or whatever our formal mathematical language is going to be for our classroom. So we have both of those things labeled on top of the strategy. And I might even draw a double sided arrow between the two to help…  Mike: Oh! OK. Nicole: …[undecipherable] that the strategy that's there has these two names and I can use those names interchangeably. But over time, we get to a place where we're calling it by its formal name. And kids also have the idea that, ‘oh, that's the one that's the scooting strategy.' They have their own name that they gave that idea. Mike: That is really helpful. And I think the example you shared really kind of shows how dual labeling kind of progresses and there's almost kind of a fade out at a certain point. Not that you're purposely not permitting kids to use ‘scooting,' but that a certain point you're kind of fading and you're starting to use the more formal name. They can use it,…  Nicole: Um-hm.  Mike: …but that you're really kind of trying to help them make a transition to the formal vocabulary.  Nicole: Um-hm. And if you think about, you know, kids are really used to using multiple names for things.  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: They have nicknames that they use at home,…  Mike: Yep.  Nicole: …they have their home name, they have their school name, they have their friend name. There are lots of different labels on the same kind of thing. So that's a natural progression of language for them. And it doesn't cause complications to have, like, these multiple names for this idea. And we can shift toward using the formal language once everybody has that tied up.  Mike: Yep. So as I was preparing for this interview, and even as I was reading the article, I found myself thinking about my life as an elementary school teacher. And I think what I found myself thinking was, is that I learned how to facilitate and record math discussions—like a lot of folks—trial and error and a heck of a lot of practice. And I think what I really appreciated about what you and your co-authors put together is that you actually laid out some principles for recording that support mathematical understanding. And I'm wondering if you could just unpack some of the principles that you think are important, Nicole.  Nicole: Yeah. So as we… as we were working on these principles, we were trying to think about, like, what are the big ideas of what gets recorded, right?, and how we record in a classroom. What are the big things that we want to make sure get attention in that work? And so we kind of organized under three big umbrellas of principles, one being around advancing mathematical ideas. Because the goal of discussion in mathematics is to build ideas together and to move the mathematics forward using student ideas. So when we think about what gets recorded, we want to record in ways that are helping us build those mathematical ideas together. So in that area, we'd really be thinking about recording the core ideas, deciding, like: What's important enough to get on the board? What do I want to make sure gets up there that's going to help push people's thinking forward? And then at the same time, thinking about: What's the right level of detail?  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: Sometimes you look at a board recording… If you walked out of the room and you came back in and you looked at it, you would have no idea what happened…  Mike: ( laughs )  Nicole: …what had gone on, right?  Mike: Yes!  Nicole: Like, there's not enough there to really, like, get a sense of what happened. But sometimes there's so much there that it's a jumble and you can't discern, like: What's important here? So that ‘just right' space of managing the detail—so there's enough that you can make sense of it when you come back the next day, you get what happened; it's enough to prompt your memory, but it's not overwhelming—um, is really important because we want kids to be building on those ideas over time. So we want those recordings to be in that kind of level of detail.  And then thinking about that arrangement. Where am I going to put things so that I can help students make connections between the ideas that have been shared? Right? Do I want kids' strategies to be next to each other? Are there particular strategies that, if I stack them on top of each other, kids are going to be able to see different kinds of connections,…  Mike: Um-hm. Nicole: …similarities, or differences? Like, where they are in relation to each other, if you think about how we make sense of space, matters.  Mike: Yes.  Nicole: So that was… that's one kind of bucket. A second bucket is really respecting students as sense makers. And this comes back to what we were talking about earlier, with really paying attention to: What were students trying to communicate? So, ‘Did I actually record what the student said it or did I write down what I wish they had said?' But trying to stay true to: What was the core of that student's idea? And am I representing that correctly? But then also adding enough detail so that the other students in the class can figure out what that student's idea was about. And we can do that through questioning, but part of that has to come out in the recording as well, because we want that record to be like the full representation of the ideas that students are communicating. And then labeling those ideas so that we're able to talk about them easier, right?…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …that we're not just like pointing to a general space, but we have some language, we have some vocabulary, we have some kind of label to be able to talk easily across those ideas.  Mike: I had a follow up that I wanted to ask you. So, again, I'm paraphrasing, but one of the things that really stood out for me in the way that you unpacked the principles was: Our recording should show the thinking behind the idea rather than the steps in the solution alone. I would love for you to expand on that a bit.  Nicole: Yeah. So the thing that we're trying to get out when students are sharing strategies in class, when they're sharing the ideas in class, is in some ways the generalizability—to use my big math vocabulary. We want to get to what is the core of the idea that they're sharing that can be used across multiple kinds of problems in lots of different ways. And so recording just the steps that get followed, may show—or it may not—the steps that somebody followed for that particular problem, but doesn't show the thinking that could be used to solve other similar or different kinds of problems. Right? So we will want to be able to record in a way that gets to the heart of the thinking. So if you think about a student, for example, using counting up to solve a subtraction problem,…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …then I might think about what's important are the steps that a student is taking to count up. So they're either thinking about it on a number line and they're hopping along the number line to count from one number to another. And so on the board, I would actually want to record those hops because that's the underlying idea—is that we're looking at the repeated unit distance between those two numbers.  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: OK? If a student is counting up using their fingers,…  Mike: Um-hm. Nicole: …then I might want to actually record a hand on the board and the count that the student is doing, so that other students in the class are able to try out that strategy, use that strategy, and think about when it's useful. But if all I've recorded on the board, are the words ‘counting up' and then the problem that they solved, that doesn't necessarily support other people in being able to try out that strategy or that idea, or even think about when would it be useful or not.  Mike: That's super helpful. I love the idea of generalizability. If I've done recording well, allows other kids to have access to the strategy that's being highlighted, rather than simply putting together the steps that showed how a person came to this individual answer, at this particular task, at this particular time. That's a really helpful clarification, I think—in my mind.  Nicole: If you even think about things like annotation and the power that annotation on a recording can have. And we think about the U.S. standard algorithm for addition,…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …where students are… they're adding and when they get a number that's greater than nine, they're making groups and carrying that group, right?, to the next place value. If we're actually annotating that process with what each of the numbers means as we're doing that work together, that can really support students in continuing to make meaning. I think that one of the things that often happens is, we make meaning when we're introducing the algorithm, we do some work together. Students are really in a place where they're understanding place value, they're understanding making groups, they get what that recording means. And then we kind of say, ‘Great, then we're just going to record this way from now moving forward.' And we continue to do that recording without the kind of reinforcement about, again, what are… what are we saying these numbers mean? What are we actually doing here? And so we move from meaning toward this recording without meaning?  Mike: Sure. That absolutely makes sense.  Nicole: Very quickly for children. And then, you know, too… I know that, for example, my fifth grade teachers would say that oftentimes their kids come to them and… and can't explain what's happening when kids do that addition. They do the work—they know how to do the work—but they can't say what it is that they're doing. Right? And so annotation can really support that, that remembering of what have we…? What kind of collective understanding have we come to?  Mike: Sure. That totally makes sense. So I wanted to ask you a bit about guidance that you'd offer to teachers. I suspect there's a fair number of people who are listening, who are really thinking about their own practice and are wondering: What steps might I take as a teacher—or maybe within the team of folks that I work with—to really try to attend to the principals and the practices that we've talked about? What's your sense of how teachers can support one another in, kind of, practicing the principles that that we've unpacked today?  Nicole: So I think there are lots of options for what it might look like to focus on and practice this work together in a teaching community. I think one way that we talked about in the article—and it's not the only way—is using video. There are lots of videos that are available on YouTube, on TeacherTube, etc., of classrooms where people are leading discussions, are recording student thinking. There are lots of videos of student thinking out there where—in a pretty short amount of time—I could, with my peers, watch this video and practice recording—either on a board, on a chart paper, on paper in front of me—recording what I'm hearing from students. And then afterwards comparing our recordings together and talking across them. What are the features that each of us has picked up on? In what ways were we in line with what the student was sharing? Where are there differences in how we interpreted what a student was sharing? And that's a pretty quick activity. I can find a five minute video. We can do that work together, talk about it in, like, tops 20 minutes, really, to do that kind of activity together. We can also do work where we're visiting each other's classrooms.  Mike: That's what you had me thinking, Nicole.  Nicole: Yeah  Mike: Yeah, absolutely!  Nicole: I can go to somebody's classroom. I can—on my lap—have my piece of paper where I'm trying to record as students are talking. And after that lesson, debrief with a teacher that I'm observing, about, ‘What was it that you decided to record? How did you make that decision? Here's what I had.' And really talk across those ideas because it's small changes in practice over time. This is an overwhelming set of work, this recording work. And it's going to get better by increments, but it's going to take practice, talking with colleagues, and really coming back to these principles and thinking about: Am I adhering to these things? Where is it that I really want to work and I improve my practice? Because I would encourage people to pick one—to start with—that you really want to get better at and focus on that one.  Mike: Yeah. I think what's powerful about this too, is that I would imagine you could certainly do some of the things that you described if you were the only teacher at a grade level.  Nicole: Yeah.  Mike: But gosh, when you put other people together and think about the ability to help one another raise your consciousness about why you made a particular decision or why you chose to go in a certain direction with a representation… That's kind of that intricacy where teachers can really help one another. I mean, we are keen observers of behavior. That's… ( laughs ) that's kind of the bread and butter of a lot of what we're doing when we're talking about differentiation. It's really powerful to think that teachers could help one another build their craft around this.  Nicole: Um-hm. Well, and it's… it's a really interesting practice, I think, in that there isn't one right way. ( laughs ) Right? There isn't a right way to represent a particular idea. Um, there are lots of really good features of different kinds of recordings, and so there's lots to discuss and… and a lot to learn from each other. And your… your comment about the being alone had me thinking about the work that you can do just by studying student work…  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …and thinking about: How are students inclined to represent their particular ideas and how might I translate that into how I represent things for the class on the board? Because students do a lot of their own translation of their thinking into representations on their homework. We can pull student work sets. You know, if we look at Inside Mathematics, there are lots of student work site, sets up there on that site that you can pull and study and look at how children are inclined to show their thinking.  Mike: So I'm going to back up and just ask if you can identify and source that resource that you just shared about Inside Mathematics. Would you… would you mind—for people who might not be familiar—just unpacking what that is and where folks can find it?  Nicole: Yeah. So, Inside Mathematics is a really great resource for teachers. It came out of a project funded by the Noyce Foundation. The website is insidemathematics.org, and it's currently housed at the Dana Center at The University of Texas at Austin.  Mike: Gotcha.  Nicole: Great resources for teachers. There are videos of lessons. There are problems. There are assessments. There are lots of resources up there, but one of my favorite resources is that, with each of the problems, they have student work samples. And so you can really see a lot of student thinking inside of those.  Mike: That's fantastic. You really answered my last question, which was going to be: For folks who, again, are listening to this conversation and thinking about steps, they might take… resources that you would recommend to someone who's really wanting to think more deeply about representation and the practice of representing student thinking.  Nicole: So I think the big three are ones that we've covered and that would be visiting your colleagues classrooms—  Mike: Um-hm.  Nicole: …whether in person or via video—depending on what the setup of your school is; visiting sites of video, right?, so going to YouTube, TeacherTube—seeing how people are representing that work and then comparing how you might choose to represent that work; and really digging into student representations of their own thinking.  Mike: That's fantastic. Nicole, thank you so much for joining us today. It has absolutely been a pleasure to talk to you.  Nicole: Thank you so much for having me. It's been really fun.  Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability.  © 2022 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Nicole: I'm at that point that I'm scaling, but at this point, like I'm running my YouTube channel, right? It's pretty massive. And yeah, at this point, people usually hire out things, but it's hard to start delegating. Like, that's what I'm trying to learn right now, to start hiring, like outsourcing things, you know, like to delegate things, get people to help me, because it's hard to scale yourself, I mean, I've been doing everything myself, the YouTube, I research it, I make the script, I film it, I edit it, make the thumbnail, and post. And at the start that's okay, right? It's for fun. But right now I'm kind of reaching a point nowhere, "Oh, my God, it's me. Like choosing between do I write my academic paper or do I finish this deliverable, or like do this YouTube, like I'm at that point and a lot of these things can be solved if you just delegate. And just like you said, the things you should know as an entrepreneur is that you can't do everything by yourself, especially when you're working on something that you want to scale. Yeah, I'm just at this point, I'm having so much difficulty with how do I even start hiring out? What do I need to outsource? Sean: Right now you're not yet outsourcing anything? Nicole: So everything is still by myself. That's why like I think your assistant emailed me a while ago. It's me answering my emails. It's me communicating with brands. Everything is me. Yeah just like for the receipts, I manually write it because at the start I really wanted to learn all of this. How does it happen? Because like I was just scared that I hire someone right now, but I will never learn it for myself. But I think I'm at the point where I know what to do. I should probably hire someone now. Sean: Yeah. Yeah. So completely agree at the get-go. I also did all of those things myself so I learned it. That's actually the very smart thing to do. And then the first jobs that I delegated out when I was starting out are the jobs that for me are the easiest for other people to learn and the easiest for me to let go of. - - - Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/leadershipstack Join our community and ask questions here: from.sean.si/discord Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leadershipstack Leadership Stack Merch: https://leadershipstack.com/shop/

Dr. Nicole de Paula has been globally connecting policymakers and researchers for more than a decade to create a public understanding on key issues related to sustainability and public health. As a Planetary Health advocate, she champions the socioeconomic advancement of women through environmental conservation. She is the founder of the Women Leaders for Planetary Health and in 2019, she became the first awardee of the prestigious Klaus Töpfer Sustainability Fellow at the Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies in Potsdam, Germany. Nicole is the author of the book “Breaking the Silos for Planetary Health: A Roadmap for a Resilient Post-Pandemic World.” Learn More about Nicole. Learn more about The Passionistas Project.   FULL TRANSCRIPT: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas project podcast, where we talk with women who are following their Passionistas to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And today we're talking with Dr. Nicole de Paula, who has been globally connecting policy makers and researchers for more than a decade to create a public understanding on key issues related to sustainability and public. As a planetary health advocate, she champions the socioeconomic advancement of women through environmental conservation. She's the founder of Women Leaders for Planetary Health and in 2019, she became the first awardee of the prestigious Klaus Töpfer Sustainability Fellow at the Institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies (IASS) in Potsdam, Germany. Nicole is also the author of the book “Breaking the Silos for Planetary Health - A Roadmap for a Resilient Post-Pandemic World.” So please welcome to the show Dr. Nicole de Paula. Nicole: Hi, Nancy and Amy. Thank you for having me. Passionistas: What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Nicole: I think recently it's definitely planetary health. Uh, we've been advocating so much and at the beginning, the term was what is planetary health sounded like a horror cop thing. Right? So it was the, it was a term that sounded, it was a bit weird in some language doesn't translate. Well, I think in German, for example, it's, it's, it's hard to translate in Portuguese as well. I'm from Brazil. So, uh, it was also a bit funny, but definitely is the topic that we should be talking about specifically. Now when we need to recover. Hopefully from this pandemic. Passionistas: So tell us of what planetary health means and how it relates to what you do for a living. Nicole: Yeah. So maybe what I do, I'm my background. I tend to say I'm a fake doctor, right? So I'm a, I have a PhD in international relations, so I'm not a magical doctor cause I've been talking a lot with public health experts. It's quite an interesting exercise. And so planetary health, uh, from my perspective is of very interesting narrative of things that decision makers should. Talking about or acting. So it's basically everything. So the planet is changing, right? We say that if the planet is sick with all the climate change impacts biodiversity loss, pollution, you know, we, we don't know anymore what we have in our foods. So much chemicals there processed food, you know, and crisis. We used to have a big problem of course, with hunger and. You know, half of the population is obese. So of course we're changing our lifestyles and the way the planet is changing and the way that we are impacting our planet. So that's why we say this anthropogenic impacts we need it's impacting public health. So the decision normally is what is health at the end of the day, right? Is everything that is inside our bodies and is just this small system. Or we should talk about health. Connected to the health of our planet. So the planetary health is a scientific discipline or, um, not discipline is there is discussion that I think is started as saying as a discipline, but let's say it's an approach, a new area of studies calling that way. I think many researchers were already discussing sustainability connecting to the, to human health. So again is very simple. It's just trying to connect sustainability to public health policies and on the, on the issue of. scientists are trying to understand how exactly climate change impacts, you know, human health. We have heat waves that impact, you know, the most vulnerable in cities. Uh, so we're trying to measure that's. So that's not exactly what I do, you know, when people will do modeling and, but in the end, we need to communicate and inform decision makers of this field and say, what do we do about it? And that's the, what I'm passionate about. How do we get the science and bring it to the people who can take these decision? And it's of course not an easy thing, especially this days, but we keep trying. So you mentioned COVID talk about how the relationship to COVID and planetary health. Like what, how is it affecting the world on the planet? Yes, COVID is as, um, sometimes mentioned and I notice in a book it's. Of course, it's a very bad thing, but if every crisis brings an opportunity, that's the sad reality. If we need change, we probably learn through love or pain. Right. So it's very hard to change behavior if you don't have a big crisis and COVID is now showing I think stimulating this conversation about, okay, what is exactly connections? It's, it's just, just a sanitary thing. It's, uh, the disease, but what you're learning now and, and. Trying to communicate. Actually, I think a lot of people have been trying to communicate this before, but the way, for example, deforestation, the way we are transforming our environment, we are, uh, increasing the chances of this contact with new viruses. So for example, illegal wildlife. Trading, you know, if you're bringing species to different and because the world is so connected in three days, the whole, if you have a new disease in three days, the whole world is contaminated. So the COVID is really showing that we need to connect more. The dots. Between these issues of biodiversity conservation. You know, this, there is a link with zoonotic diseases. When you have pathogens, frighten animals, jump to humans, we still, we don't have definitive answers about how exactly COVID was created, but six out of 10 new diseases come from animals. You know, so this, this zoonotic disease. So, so we know that we are creating some sort of this possibility of increasing diseases and, and climate change. For example, Our natural ecosystem. So new mosquitoes there wouldn't be in Europe, for example, because of the climate. Now, if we find, so we have a new ecology of, of these diseases that it's important to understand and study again, we have, uh, researchers doing that. So planetary health brings this conversation and links, uh, this points. Passionistas: So let's take a step back. You talked about the fact that you're from Brazil. Tell us a bit about growing up there. And when did you first become aware of these issues and what inspired you to pursue this field. Nicole: Of course, I mean, I think I always wanted to, I remember as a, let's say teenager, the time you need to decide about university, I was between. Two things. I think I, I love studying. So I think my thing, I love learning. So doesn't matter what it is. I people say, oh, what's your favorite? You know, subject? I liked everything. Uh, at the end I started being better at humanities and others, but I was still at some point. Good, very good in chemistry. Very good in math, some parts of physics. So I wish I had more talent. I wish I had kept my talents. I found that time would be great for calculating it or model. Days, which I don't feel they're very capable, but I enjoyed, uh, learning and, and, and I enjoyed traveling. So that was a big thing. So I think, you know, if you're uncomfortable in new places. So for example, from Brazil, I remember going to Portugal at early age and I didn't enjoy so much because it was so similar. To Brazil. And I think nowadays I would think, uh, differently because it's a fantastic city in LIBO, for example, it changed so much, but the traveling part was inspiring. And so I was trying to find things, you know, what is, what can I do that unite all this many disciplines that I enjoy and, and traveling. So I initially, um, I also was very good at debating, especially my family. If I wanted something I would debate until they were tired. So it was, uh, some people found that of course, very annoying, but they thought would be, I would be a good lawyer. Right. So I thought about it. And in the end I found this brochure, that's saying, oh, international relation. It was a new course at that point, you know, remember also globalization and all this. So that's something we have a very, of course at the university of Sao Paulo is let's say top university in Brazil, depending on the subject, but is very, uh, important center, but they didn't have international relations when I was applying for it. So there was another univers. The head leading that in Sao Paulo and from Sao Paulo. And so I joined that and started doing international relations, but at that point, nobody knew what do you do with international relations? Right? It just, and in the first year it was, it was actually the time when the United States. Was not ready to sign or, you know, was withdrawing from the Coda protocol, which is the whole, the initial agreement, uh, in the whole climate sphere. So as a student in political science, I was like, why, if it's such a good thing for the planet, why we have the biggest power saying that they don't wanna agree with this? You know, that's, it's good for the plant. So that's how I entered the, the climate diplomacy conversation. So again, I entered the sustainability sphere through the political. Perspective. Right. And then from that on, I was started doing a lot of understanding how countries negotiate about the trees. So it was climate then biodiversity and quickly I could actually move to France. So my university had an agreement. So I moved to France and then started studying a lot from the perspective of European union, which is another whole in region and negotiations of agreement to have a global position. So all that it's endless and it was fascinating. But I tended to focus on the sustainable stable development aspects. And, you know, we have in Rio, Brazil also, we are very, it's a very important country for sustainable development. The Amazon has always been on the agenda. We have infinite natural resources, you know, is the mega diverse, uh, countries top. So Brazil has been very important for this negotiations. And so that's why I started my academic life. And there was no specific moment, right. This, I had an aha moment for other things later, but for that, I just really enjoyed the disciplines. And, and that's how I think also. We say the planetary health is really about multidisciplinary, you know, whatever we do, we need to unite disciplines. And international relations was always a, let's say a collection of disciplines. You did economics, law, sociology, you know, theology, linguistics things. And you had to make sense of all this. So I think from the early age, I was maybe comfortable navigating multidisciplinary systems and which today is very useful because, you know, you're kind of comfortable. You're not there to protect a discipline and you're just free to kind of have this dialogue, which is so, so important. So tell us about some of the fellowships that you've done through the years, the international Institute for sustainable development. Passionistas: What was your work like there? Nicole: Yeah, so, well, the international for sustainable development is actually the it's more, um, it's a think tank and that's through this organization that I could. Actually be in the practice of sustainability tracking sustainable development in real time, because you are, uh, going to all this at the UN and, and, and trying to understand the country's positions and why. So it's a lot of work of Intel in the end, the product you would say you would do reports and informing in a very succinct, uh, way what countries are doing. However you need the whole background. So we were, most of the people there were doing their PhDs or at least a master in one of the specific negoti later negotiations. So it was more, uh, yeah, so we were part of a global team tracking this, but usually also connected to your academic. Research. So this was during my PhD times where I could, I think, you know, I don't know, almost 60 countries and, and it was gave a lot of perspective, you know, from what people think, because one solution, you know, in Europe is not a solution in Africa is on solution in Latin America. And that's, that's why it's so slow. And that's why it's so difficult because of course we do need global solutions. However, you still need to kind of get the. Contextualized moments of this. So very challenging, but that's what I did there. It was really getting, uh, and track and sustainability in practice at the UN level. Passionistas: And as we mentioned in our intro in 2019, you became the first awardee of the Klaus Töpfer Sustainability Fellow. So tell us about that period and what, and what that experience was like. Nicole: So that's a very recent experience and it's, it's one of my favorites because it gave so, um, gave me a lot of freedom to, I think, do follow my passion and do the things that, you know, I use usually say it's it's. When is a time that you have time and money together, you know, it never either you have time or no, uh, no money or money and no time. So this was, this fellowship is really dedicated for two kind of people do their projects and elevate them. And so I was so proud to, uh, cost software is the former Minnesota environment in Germany. He was also the head of the United Nations department program before. So it was someone who was, you know, doing politics in Germany. But also went moved to Kenya and was the head of a large organization. And he had to also understand, right. This compromises, how it works. Africa is not the same as Germany. So, um, and of course it's very influential. Public figure. So I, he, uh, and together a few of, I think Noble Prizes founded, uh, this Institute in, in Potsdam. And it's a very interesting, I think I had a lot of intellectual freedom there and I could develop the book, "Breaking the Silos for Planetary Health," which if you don't have time to sit down and write it's, you know, you never finish. So I could do that. I could support Brazil in a large planetary health global event together with the Harvard university. And this was a fantastic, uh, really expanding the field of planetary health in Latin America. Because one of the things I try to say is there's no point of having planetary health conversation. If it's only in Australia, Europe and you know, north America. So I need to bring that to the global south. And I could found the social enterprise, uh, called women leadership, monetary health, and, and this has opened so many. To a lot of my work today. So I really enjoyed that and, and very supportive colleagues and directors, and it was really, really a very fun time in my career. I must, I'm very thankful for that. I think it was, you know, when you got these things at the right time, you really could. I think I used the opportunity and then COVID came and that for me professionally, Was good because I was talking so much about health sustainability, and unfortunately, see, you need a crisis to push these things and it's a sad reality, but from that perspective was a good timing to talk about this. Passionistas: Talk us through what you do. You connect policy makers and researchers. So what is that process? What's your day like? Nicole: Well, that's funny. My day has been the most. I don't have a routine I have now. I think it's first two weeks that I'm having more of a routine in my life and I'm almost 40. So I enjoy that. I think I worked a lot to get a lot of flexibility in my work life. So I have absolutely no routine because every day, and now with the pandemic, it became then a different world. Why we could do so much virtually and things, but it was more about, so I did a lot of work in different countries when. You know, ISD the internet. When I said I was tracking sustainment about negotiations, every time was in a different country. So I would be in the desert and the next week I would be in the Arctic literally. So you'll have to Pack, you know, for north of Finland and Dubai. So it has been very hectic, but I enjoyed that, but definitely not a common. Existence, especially for women, as we know, you know, people expect that you have your traditional things and then you have your family life like a traditional way and all that. And I always refused in a way and said, no, that's really exciting to not have these routine. That's not what I want. And during this time, so you, why, if you travel so much, you're also connecting with people around the planet. So it facilitates so. Your work doing, you know, if you have to gathering intelligence, you have to see what that country's thinking and what the others. So how can I, if I'm writing a paper. Or, or, you know, even my PhD, I had to really, for, for five years you were doing research and, and, and I was about the strategic partnership between Brazil and EU on the specific agreements. So things are evolving, right? So I need to track that. And so this connection is. First through research because you have to inform and you have to publish and you have to get the knowledge, but then once, once you are working with these organizations, you're actually also transferring that knowledge or trying to, you know, it's not so much of an academic exercise, but if you do, if you're working with think tanks, then you do round tables and you do other events. And it's more of the networking part, exchanging the word that I like here. Cross pollinating knowledge around disciplines. Institutions. So that's a lot of what I do. And so it's not a clear cut thing, but when you see, you have to yeah. Do your research like political scientist and a lot of interviews. For example, the method, if you're this participant observant, you know, you are in the process. So not only reading cuz what is published in the end, it's not necessarily what was happening. There's so much in politics that cannot be published. That's why these personal connections are so important because you need trust from these individuals to get the information. That's how I think, think it's a very important talent. So this personal [00:18:00] diplomacy with trust building networking in many countries that really helps to kind of today. I have my colleagues that, oh, we will. And I moved to Bangkok after, right. So I lived in France, then I moved to Thailand and I lived in Canada. I lived in Washington, DC, and I lived in more in Brazil, of course. And now I'm in Italy. So it's kind of, some point gets Tre with the bureaucracy, you know, the visa things. That's, uh, what I'm, but apart from that is fascinating because you adapt and I think that's what the world needs today. Right? We all had to adapt so fast, but honestly, for me, it was. When the lockdown came, I just felt that was just my regular life that everybody could finally understand that we could do so much online, that we could do so much virtually. So a lot of distracting of the negotiations we did virtually and I worked. Like this with slack or all this chat functions with people around the world that I never met since 2012. So, you know, 10 years later, the world figured out that it is possible. We don't need to fly across the world to have, you know, a one-on-one meeting that that's absolutely insane Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you are listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast in our interview with Dr. Nicole de Paula. To learn more about Women Leaders for Planetary Health's mission to empower women to lead planetary health solutions at frontlines of development in the Global South visit WLPH.org. We'd like to take a moment to invite you to the third annual Power of Passionistas summit this September 21st through September 23rd, 2020. The three-day virtual event is focused on authentic conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion, this unique gathering of intersectional storytellers and panelists harnesses, the power of our rich community of passionate thought leaders and activists to pose solutions to the problems plaguing women and non-binary people. Early bird tickets are on sale now through August 21st for just $99 at ThePassionistasProject.com. So be sure to register before the special discount rate ends. We'd like to thank our sponsors, Melanie Childers Master Coach, Graceful Revolution, The OSSA Collective, Tea Drops, Aaron's Coffee Corner, Flourishing Over 50, Espinola Real Estate Team, Sarah Finns Coaching, Tara McCann Wellness, Aspira Public Affairs and TrizCom Public Relations. Now here's more of our interview with Nicole. Did you miss traveling though for someone who likes to be on the go. Nicole: Exactly, that's a very, you know, interesting question and. The good thing is I did so much that I feel that. I feel a bit satisfied with, you know, the places that I've been and it's never enough there's no, if you like traveling, you know, you can always do again and, and learn more and spend more time. But I definitely felt at the beginning was fine because, you know, with the lockdown you could produce everything and write, I used my time, a lot to do the writing and. What I miss is just, um, the easing, you know, the facility that you could go. So now, if you're in Italy, Italy, you have to go back to Germany. It feels like you're going to another continent in the civil war, you know? So, and that's the thing, it's very, it's sad because, you know, if you have family also abroad and it's just, it's kind of a, a worry that if you need to travel fast and, and, and not every. We'll have, you know, the same advantages or being treated equally. So in the end, the most vulnerable will always suffer more. They will not have support. They cannot. So I miss, I miss the, the easy connections to exotic places. so in 2019 new co-founded the planetary health research group. So tell us about that and what the mission is of that organization. So this group is at the, is hosted by the universal Sao Paul in Brazil. And, and it's hosted by the, there is an Institute for advances studies there and was with together with professor Antonio Saraiva, who is an absolutely partnering crime and that in Brazil and an amazing group of. Interdisciplinary researches. So we were, we actually with professor sarava, we met in the first meeting of the planetary health Alliance in Boston. It was hosted by Harvard and we met in a museum, uh, with, you know, I think it was natural history and you have like ping wings around us. So it was a very fun dinner. And in the bit of the. And we just connected. And for many years we were, you know, discussing and going to these meetings. Every, every it's an annual meeting until Brazil got the right to host for, for the first time the planetary health Alliance would, you know, give the right for a developing country to host this, this conference. And then we, we were just natural partners and we had, we were working direct together. So we decided to have this an official center, uh, at the university of Sao Paulo in the most interdisciplinary center. And this is growing now I'm affiliated I'm founder co-founder and professor is really leading that. Now he's a very senior professor there, so it's, it's just fascinating because it's not something, you know, that belongs to the university. Of Sao, but it's something that belongs to Brazil because we have many partners. We have people from all regions, as you know, Brazil's a very, very big country. So it's kind of really well distributed now. And it's fascinating to, even for me, when you go to meetings, you have all different accents from Brazil. You know that sometimes you, if you'll sustain your bubble, you don't even listen to different voices. And, and if you're advocating for this diversity in decision making it. You know, it starts there. We have to have people from different regions, so that's, it's growing and we could host successfully the. In last year. Yeah, because January, so definitely like, uh, last year, I think April, we got 5,000 people who register for this and, you know, from 130 countries. And, and because also it was the first time it would be in Brazil, but the pandemic had to be online, but we really took the opportunity to make this. An inclusive, you know, not that a lot of people would, this conferences would be usually around 400 people and we could at least bring that to the houses of, you know, in people in hundred, 130 countries. So, and that's why the, what I like to talk about also volunteer health movement. It's a scientific thing, but also if you don't talk and people don't get excited and don't wanna do things, it's usually right. The planetary health movement, as you know, social movement is very important as well. And I think we've worked quite well and there are now new programs of young ambassadors from different universities and they're doing things. So it's about also inspiring others to, to get to know more about the few, to apply to their, how would they think, you know, in their topic of research discuss this. So, yeah, so very proud of that one. That's how I could help my own country. Explore the team. And in 2020 you founded the Women Leaders for Planetary Health. So what is the mission of that organization? Nicole: Yeah, it was so the United nations climate conference, the cop 25 December. I had it with the support of, I, I asked this organization that was in pots. I really wanted to do something that would, I was doing so much on voluntary health, but the gender dimension was really mentioned. I wasn't hearing about it. It was just. You know, unknown issue. So, so, uh, I, I definitely the mission is we want to empower women to lead planetary health solutions in the global south, simple as that, because how many women, you know, and sustainability is very full of women, but how many women really leading solutions or, you know, receive funding to do their own thing, or that's the challenge that we have. Right. And so I wanted to focus. On that discussion first to understand why if we empower women, what's the difference for planetary. And I mean, we're doing research on that, right. But of course there's many indications that you can accelerate the impact of sustainable development policies. If you have women empowered and able to, to take the lead and, and make a change, if you wanna like in food systems, for example, if you, you can be investing agriculture in bio things, however, if women don't have land. You know, legally they're discriminated and they cannot produce their own things or do practices. Um, it's kind of useless. So we need to pay attention to this, to many of inequalities of inequalities, not only income, but also opportunities. And that's why I wanted to again, bring the planetary health conversation to low and middle income countries. So I was really targeting that as part of the. That's why the first, um, round we created a digital academy, which was with the pandemic was great because everything could be digital. And it could, we, we had third more than 30 countries participating in our things. So, and, and, and very, let's say non reachable, difficult countries, you know, we had people in Palestine had people from Sudan. We had people named Zimbabwe from Brazil, you know, in Latin America. In all these women, they all share the same problems, but also the same passion and the same solutions. You see the they're doers, you know, and the, the [00:28:00] narrative is really not to make oh, women is, I didn't create organizations to say, oh, we are suffering. It's so difficult. They're discriminated. The point is how we empower them to, to do what they wanna do and, but have the right resources and the leadership. So we focus really on, on leadership training sessions and with, we had our wonderful Angela field who also supported us on that. And I was mostly focusing on, on this research part of planetary health. And so we write papers and do the research as well. How climate or. Biodiversity. How does things connect to gender? Yeah. So that's how we, and it's, it's growing the UN, so it was good to also have that conversation at the UN that's, how it started. And now we are a social enterprise, you know, legal institution in Germany. And, and that's, I'm very excited to see how this is growing. We have a team in Brazil. Now we have things growing Africa. We have things in Southeast Asia. Yeah. Very excited. That's I think how we get that's the, the passion, I think our jobs. And if you work with the policy makers, it's not always fun. Right? They're of course politics entered in the middle. Things can be delayed and take time to, to drive change. But this is really the fun part. I think of my work, cuz you see the results and you see also the results at the personal level. You know, you have sometimes I think we underestimate how much we could help people by simple things, just, you know, supporting them with the letter. So the mentoring part of our, we had this digital academy, but also we were pairing individuals with senior mentors. So we had a mentorship program. Targeting low middle income countries, women in low middle income countries. So, and I heard so many stories after, because at the beginning I thought, well, you know, this is not, I mean, it's not a big deal. It's just, okay, we're helping a little bit. But when you see the later, what they tell and the things, the decisions that they took in the end, or the courage that they had to do, their own things, they really, you get surprised and you say, wow, and this is, you know, we did this and that's very rewarding. Passionistas: Can you tell us about maybe a success story, something that you've seen come through the organization? Nicole: Yeah, I think it, I mean, what I saw a lot was this positive. They tell stories that, oh, when I joined the program, I was, you know, I was a bit lost. I didn't know what to do or maybe careers. And they normally, they felt empowered to take the decisions that they already knew that they would do, but they felt validated somehow that that's, oh, that's I can do this. So I heard many stories like this. If they wanna maybe start a new master's program or if they wanna change careers, if they wanna quit their toxic. You know, there were stories like this or people who they want to change industries and do more work on sustainability. I saw a lot of this and simply, and maybe at the end, I can tell another story, but don't keep it a secret. Passionistas: So what can women who aren't kind of full-time activists in this field? What can we do on a day to day basis to have an impact on the planet? Nicole: Yeah. So this is a very, it's a common question that we get, right? So how, of course, everybody wants to know how they can make a better place of role, but I like to call attention to, to another point, because yes, you can do your recycles. You can eat, you know, reduce, consumption meat, normally, what is in terms of impact. If you change your diets, that's the easiest and the biggest impact you're gonna. So not so simple to do it. And especially it depends where you leave and your culture or your habit, but that's what researchers show that that's the biggest impact you can have. If you change your diet, you have of course, more, more, less meat, less a more plants. And so there is something called plenary health diet that it doesn't say you can never eat meat, but you know, Definitely. We have to shift the quantity and the proportion of things that we are eating, as we know we're not so healthy these days. So I would invite our, our participants to, to, you know, Google planter, health diet. That's an interesting exercise. But what I like to think about, and that's why it's, it's important also to think in this, which is also hard, but the systemic part, right. Nobody will completely change. What I'm trying to do is really how do you address the root causes of this problems that are saving? I don't think it's our five minute, three minute or 60 seconds shower that will do that. So when we try to put the, the solutions on the shoulders of individuals only, you're not addressing the problem. You're just masking. The problem. And you're just, you know, you want to delay action because what you need to do is to change drastic. You know, you need to change trade rules, you need to change the way supply chains you need to, it's not only one company, right. That company has thousands of companies involved in their business. So how do we do that? So I'm more interested now in, in really in. Transformative systems for sustainability. And of course we have the UN sustainable development goals who, who addressed it. It's a very, it's a plan for development and address so many questions that they're important. But as you see there, it's very hard to disconnect one goal from the other, but many institutions they say, oh, I do, you know, SDG two or four or five. I do gender. And what I like to say, no, if you don't do everything. A little bit, if you don't understand the connections, you're not doing much. So, which is difficult to do because obviously capacity and is limited. Time is limited. Resources are limited. We need to prioritize, use your best skills and maybe focus on what you can do best, but you need partnerships. Nobody will do this alone. So that's why the individual quest, what can we do is yeah, you can start with your house and then maybe influencing your own family and your building and start expanding, but also try to educate yourself about these connections, because I see a lot of people. Oh, use this or consume that, but there's so many inconsistencies things, you know, they would, maybe they are young activists, but they're using Neo Polish full of chemicals for, because it's cheaper from, I don't know, another country try to understand the whole picture. And, and I think that's the way we can have a bigger impact and on women. Right. Let me just, uh, address that. And I think because. Women need to support women. That's simple, you know, for too long, we are also trying this narrative. Oh, women are difficult. You know, today I was hearing someone, if you, since a lot of positions of power are, you know, occupied by men. Also, if, if you're a woman you're just maybe used to kind of, let's say. Working for men or serving that, you know, the ideas of men have. And, and then if women wants to do things they're normally considered difficult or challenging, you know, this is so typical and, and it's happening every day and it's just getting tiring now. And I think women need to stop that and help each other. To, instead of making things worse for ourselves, because we already have a lot of challenge in life. So it's, it's just not acceptable that we are also struggling with other women. So I think it just is more cohesion and support solidarity would make life for all of us so much easier. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast in our interview with Dr. Nicole de Paula. To learn more about Women Leaders for Planetary Health's mission to empower women to lead planetary health solutions the frontlines of development in the Global South visit WLPH.org. Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Double your first box when you sign up for a one-year subscription. And remember to get your tickets to the third annual virtual Power of Passionistas summit from September 21st through 23rd. Early bird tickets are on sale now through August 21st for just $99 at ThePassionistasProject.com. So be sure to register before this special discount rate ends. And subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.

In this episode, Jolie speaks with Nicole Robinson, keynote speaker at the 2021 Black Issues Conference, and Ana Brown, the Director for the Office of Multicultural Affairs at BGSU. They discuss how to ensure equity and accessibility for marginalized groups through their work in digital marketing and academic administration respectively. Announcer:From Bowling Green State University and the Institute for the Study of Culture and Society, this is BG Ideas.Musical Intro:I'm going to show you this with a wonderful experiment.Jolie:You're listening to the Big Ideas podcast, a collaboration between the Institute for the Study of Culture and Society and the School of Media and Communication at Bowling Green State University. I'm Jolie Sheffer, associate professor of English and American Culture Studies and the director of ICS. Due to the ongoing pandemic, we are not recording in the studio but remotely, via phone and computer. Our sound quality may differ as a result. As always, the opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of BGSU or its employees. Bowling Green State University and its campuses are situated in the Great Black Swamp and the lower Great Lakes region. This land is the homeland of the Wyandotte, Kickapoo, Miami, Pottawatomie, Ottawa and multiple other Indigenous tribal nations, present and past, who were forcibly removed to and from the area. We recognize these historical and contemporary ties in our efforts toward decolonizing history.Jolie:And we thank the Indigenous individuals and communities who've been living and working on this land from time immemorial. Today, I'm joined by two guests, Nicole Robinson and Ana Brown. Nicole gave the keynote address at BGSU's 2021 Black Issues Conference. Nicole is a marketing and media strategist and has advocated internationally for accessibility and human rights. She specializes in integrated marketing strategy, web design, script and copywriting and she serves as an accessibility consultant to individuals and businesses. Ana Brown serves as the Director for the Office of Multicultural Affairs at BGSU, where she oversees diversity education, cultural programming, retention initiatives and belonging spaces for faculty, staff, and students. Her responsibilities include designing educational sessions, facilitating trainings and moderating panels on campus and in the community. Ana is also a member of the ICS executive board. Thank you both for joining me today, I'm really happy to have this conversation with you. Before we jump into discussing, sort of, the individual projects and initiatives you're working on, around diversity, equity and inclusion, I'd like to start with a question about terms. What does accessibility mean to you? So, Nicole, will you go first?Nicole:Accessibility, to me, means meeting people where they are. So, it really is as simple as, the more people can access your work, the more people can see it, hear it, feel it, however they need to sense it, the more people you can reach. So, I know some time it's looked at as a task or as a chore but it really is an asset to be able to touch people or reach people, speak to them, however they're able to receive it. So, it really is as simple as, just meeting people where they are.Jolie:And what about for you Ana?Ana: I tend to think of physical space but as we do more and more virtually and more and more online, I think that accessibility has become a broader term, not only about being able to read or hear or see the content but to actually access it. So, in terms of having a reliable internet connection, in terms of having the tools necessary to get to that internet connection, I think that those things, as we're broadening the scope of what accessibility means, I think that those things need to be included and discussed as well.Jolie:And as a follow-up to that, how do we address issues of some of the invisible disabilities into that definition of accessibility? Because we've talked about, sort of, the physical barriers, we think, on campuses, about wheelchair ramps and curb cuts. You and Nicole have talked about the importance of closed captioning and, sort of, making sure that the information is accessible. But how is the, kind of, evolving language around cognitive and neurological differences, kind of, broadening that definition and the work that you're doing?Ana:Absolutely. I think that understanding what these cognitive disabilities are is critical because a lot of folks are just now beginning to understand that these are disabilities, that it's not just a personal quirk or a personal failing, in some cases, is the way that it's been described as a lot of time. Well, you just need to do this better or you just need to work a little bit harder. It's like, no, it's actually an actual disability and so, as such, it's part of being a protected class. And so, we have to do better at making sure that we are addressing those needs and knowing it is part of our responsibility to find those communities and be aware and understand and grab resources that they're out there providing for everybody. They're like, look, we do this, we provide this, just read, just learn, just listen and you'll gain, kind of, some of the knowledge that you need to do better by us. And I think that that's one of the key pieces.Nicole:Back when I used to work for the state hospice association, I did media relations and web development and we developed a whole website that was based on being able to help Floridians locate hospice, end of life care or palliative care services. So, I was part of making the map. So, if you click in a city or county, it will direct you to the hospices in the service area. But we realized pretty early on in development that, there were some people who couldn't access the site, whether it was, there's a lot of people who might be looking for a hospice facility for themselves or for a loved one who might have sight issues or they can't see the text on the website, it's not large enough. I don't want to put it on them, it's on us to make it so that it's accessible.Nicole:So, that was when I started to really think about it and be like, especially because if we intend to use the internet as much as we are now, well, we're not always going to have the same level of site, we're not always going to have the same cognitive abilities but we should still have a good quality of life. So, if we don't develop these websites to have accessibility, millennials, gen Z, we'll all essentially develop ourselves out of use of the internet. That's what it really got me thinking about but also in that period, the immediate issue of making that website as accessible as possible. That's what it really... my wheels really started turning. And the folks there at the hospice association were really supportive and gung ho about developing those skills. And I ultimately went and got certified by the international association for that the IAAP for accessibility, for web accessibility, to accommodate those issues. Jolie:As a follow-up to this question, I'd love to hear each of you talk about the ways that you think about diversity and accessibility as being connected. What is the relationship between those concepts and how does your work touch on both concepts? Ana, you want to go first with that one?Ana:It's part of, for me, looking at the whole person and looking at the intersectionalities that we all have. I think that if we're going to say Black Lives Matter, then we have to look at all Black lives mattering. So, we can't just say that this certain set of Black lives matter, we have to look at disabled Black lives, we have to look at incarcerated Black lives, we have to look at all the other intersections of identity. And so, it's a critical piece, if you're going to talk about inclusion and belonging spaces, you have to look at not just one identity. And I think that that's one of the things that we have to be more aware of is that, whose story is being told, whose story isn't being told, who has access to tell their stories. And I think that that's also part of the issue is, if we're looking at accessibility as an issue of diversity and inclusion, it's like, we need to make sure that the people actually have the access to tell their stories, in a way that works for them.Nicole:Well, that campaign I was talking about, part of that website development, launching a hospice locator system on the website, was part of trying to reach minority communities who are underserved. Accessibility and race and diversity definitely intersect. We already have standing issues, for example, in medical care access and we have issues with food deserts. So, when you're rolling out the COVID vaccine or COVID testing and you only put COVID testing, like in Florida, is great that we're having people have more testing sites and everything like that. But if you're prioritizing grocery stores and you have a standing issue with food deserts, then you run into the same issue. Now you're compiling on it on a standing issue of not having access to fresh foods and foods that are good for your health, not just processed stuff but now you're limiting the access that people with that standing issue, due to red lining and all kinds of discrimination, have accessing relief to COVID.Nicole:And there's already a disparity in who is dying and living from that same disease. So, I would say, in the sense that accessing the vaccine, it must consider standing issues of just accessibility to food and grocery stores. The same thing in turn is applied to accessibility with cognitive disabilities, when you look at the education system, you see a great disparity in who is accommodated and how for cognitive disabilities and what is qualified as bad behavior and what is qualified as something that needs to be addressed with psychiatrists and psychologists. So, it intersects and we must be mindful of those things so we don't make issues worse, instead of seeing a path forward and making them better.Jolie:Ana, you're working in a different setting than Nicole but you are also thinking about meeting people where they are and increasing diversity, equity, inclusion and access. Could you talk a little bit about some of the key programs or initiatives that you're involved with on our own campus?Ana:Oh yeah. We do so much with the Division of Diversity and Belonging, which is where the Office of Multicultural Affairs is housed. And everything from looking at how to best reach students where they are and looking, again, across identities because we need to provide open and safe and welcoming spaces for our marginalized students. But also, we need to provide education and support for our students who have privileged identities so that they can understand what it means to be a marginalized person in these settings. So, providing educational opportunities for those students and the community as well, we do a lot of work partnering with Not In Our Town, with Welcome BG, other entities in the community. We've done a lot, especially after the activism of this past summer, we did a couple of common reads, moderated quite a few panels, created some days of dialogue, so ways to reach out to different communities within our community.Ana:So that we're expanding the definition of what inclusion actually means to these folks and helping them see that they're a part of that and part of that process. In terms of access, we are working on the diversity and belonging council for the AURGs, which are resource groups based upon different identities. And so, looking at the disabilities resource group, looking at the racial ethnic marginalized resource group, looking at the LGBTQ+ resource group and understanding that folks are going to be part of maybe more than one of these and the allies and advocates are going to be part of these as well, so it's not just for the folks who identify within those identity groups but also for folks who want to come and support and learn with them and grow with them.Jolie:We're going to take a quick break. Thanks for listening to the Big Ideas podcast.Announcer:If you are passionate about big ideas, consider sponsoring this program. To have your name or organization mentioned here, please contact us at ics@bgsu.edu.Jolie:And we're back with the Big Ideas podcast. Nicole, you are obviously working a lot in social media, among other media spaces. There's wide spread concern, especially of late, about social media's harmful effects on society. And we've seen the spread of hate speech, conspiracy theories, misinformation and disinformation but we've also seen how social media has been crucial in building social movements, creating awareness and spreading more inclusive messages. We think about both QAnon and Black Lives Matter, are the products of social media networks. So, how do you see social and digital media being used as a force for good? Or how would you like to see it used as a force for good? And what steps can we take to make sure the benefits of these platforms are greater than their harms?Nicole:Well, I'll say, first, social media activism with Black Lives Matter, some people don't know, Black Lives Matter did not start last year during the summer, it's been around. So, I was actually around during the Trayvon Martin protest here in this lower state Capitol, we were in a sit-in at the Capitol, to protest the verdict in that case but it started a while back but that was using the internet. And I worked in communications with those folks, that sent me all the ways to the United Nations for the human rights council to talk about human rights issues, as it concerns stand your ground laws. It was an honor of my life and I'm still in contact with them and I can't wait to go back to continue doing those fights. But without that, without social media, that was a ladder to be able to have such an honor and be able to have the honor of standing up for human rights internationally as well. Nicole:So, that was a way that we use hashtags, we use Black Lives Matter, we use Stand Your Ground and all of that, to reach a wider audience. But I talked about this in my talk for the telling our stories, that when you are, from a creative marketing standpoint, when you're telling your story authentically and you're being authentic to yourself, it's better to be authentic to yourself and use it for good because though it might be a longer path, it will ultimately lead you to a better place. And I guarantee you, I never thought that protesting in Florida, Tallahassee, Florida, would lead me all the way to Geneva, Switzerland, on the floor of the United Nations. But I really implore people to stay authentic to themselves on digital platforms because you might not get recognized but some people are not looking for the biggest platform, they're looking for authenticity.Jolie:Ana, I think there's a corollary in a lot of ways, that the same way that social media can be an equalizer, it can also be a force for creating these media bubbles, for reproducing a set of beliefs without challenge. We also see some of those conversations around higher education, is higher education a site of conservatism and elitism, where we are reproducing white supremacy and other forms of inclusion or is it this social leveler? What do you see as the challenges of working within a structure like the university? Which wasn't built for inclusion and accessibility, in the way that we're thinking of it today. What progress do you see being made, either here at BGSU or more broadly, across the nation?Ana:Well, I think that a lot of progress has been made. I think that the fact that an office like mine exists because progress has been made. But also I think that we, as people, have a tendency to get complacent and so, it's like, okay, well, we hit this level, we're good. We don't need to do anymore, we're good. But one of the beauties of working with students is that, they hold you accountable to their expectations, their hopes and their dreams. They said, you told me that I could come here and be anything I want to do. Well, this is a barrier to it and how are you going to help eradicate that barrier? Hmm, that's a good point, that's something that we weren't thinking about, so thank you for bringing it to our attention. And sometimes they do it in those individual conversation ways. And sometimes it's a protest and is like, no, we will be heard, you will hear us, you will see us and you will acknowledge the damage that has been done to us.Ana:And so, one of the things I always tell the students that I work with is that, it takes a lot of different avenues, it takes the outside protests but it also takes the people who are laying the groundwork on the inside. And so, folks like me who are like, okay, I'm listening to what you're saying, let me do some prep work so that when you bring these concerns up, people are a little bit more prepared to deal with them. And so, when we're looking at the institution as a whole, in higher education, I think that we have a long way to go, in terms of reaching true equity, in terms of reaching true inclusion.Ana:There are a lot of built in challenges that we want to pretend are not challenges, in the sense of economic disparity, in terms of opportunity gaps that are disproportionately impacting lower socioeconomic, racially ethnically marginalized students, students who are immigrants, in many cases. And, again, our students with disabilities who are oftentimes not even... their voice is even at the table, when we're talking about how they need to be served. So, I think that higher education, in some ways, has done a really great job of moving forward and in some ways, we're kind of dragging our feet. I'm grateful for the students who hold us accountable to that.Jolie:Bringing the conversation back to technology and the digital sphere. With the pandemic, we've seen more and more people are using technology to conduct their daily lives than ever before. Whether we're talking about remote learning in K-12 environments, working from home, Zoom social hours, all of these things have reached a degree of saturation in our daily lives, that probably seemed almost impossible a little over a year ago. So, I'd be curious for each of you to answer, what are some of the ways you've seen technology manifest in this time period, in particular, as both a solution and an obstacle? Or examples of each, for increasing accessibility and racial equity or where you've seen kind of issues compound because of our reliance on technology. Nicole, will you go first?Nicole:Well, I think the best of it is really being able to even the platform, to give people a voice. Especially, I spoke about Black Lives Matter, everyone talks about the seat at the table but it also a matter of who's speaking, it's not enough. I'm not content with just having a seat at the table and being a black face at the table so everybody feels better about it or being a woman at the table so they're like, look, somebody wearing a dress, that's great. And they get to high five one another and they don't listen to what I have to say. So, I think technology has, kind of, even that playing field a lot, so that I don't have to be filtered through somebody who doesn't know my experience, as a purpled hair, black woman navigating the world.Nicole:And people can access that directly. I can put my means out there, I can put my writing out there and it can go direct to the source, nobody has to filter it. There's thousands of women out there who are expressing themselves every day and it's a beautiful thing and technology has allowed that platform and I think it's beautiful. But right before the pandemic, we were told that, it is impossible, it's too much of a chore, it is too much of an ordeal, to work from home. And I had several of my friends who were affected by that, were women who were pregnant. I had several close friends who were admonished for wanting to take off of work, while their male counterparts had a headache they could take off. But if you're passing out from growing a child, a human being, that's not an excuse to be able to work from home.Nicole:But it's thousands, millions of people who, with invisible disabilities and visible disabilities, were told that, no, you cannot work from home. So, imagine you have chronic pain, you have to just tough it out, that's not equitable, that's not fair. But in a matter of weeks, in a month turn around this time last year, the whole United States was working from home. We're talking on Zoom, which is a result of being able to do that. So, where it's such an asset and I hope that it continues over time. I think even major social media, I know Twitter, they announced that they're never going to go back to full office capacity because, I mean, I think there's a calculation in that they don't have to pay as much for office space. But as long as it results in more accessibility from the workplace, some people aren't going to be working from home in perpetuity, which is great.Nicole: But in that same vein, it also causes certain obstacles for people who were being overzealous in how they are upholding how people can work from home. So, the requirement of cameras being on the whole time. You might have people from different socioeconomic backgrounds who don't have a Martha Stewart background. Not everybody has it, some people have kids that are running around and they don't want you to see all of that. And that cannot be used against people, especially as you're asking them to work from home. And also, you have to consider who can afford. When we're working in the offices, all that is paid for, all that is covered. Wi-Fi, high-speed and everything like that, you have to consider that maybe not everybody has the capacity to pay for that type of bandwidth, that type high-speed internet at their home, so that needs to be accommodated and covered by employers who send people to work from home.Nicole:I even saw an article saying that, we're spending more on office supplies. That presents an issue for people of different socioeconomic backgrounds. That can be a compiled issue for people who are not astute on diversity and inclusion, to make certain comments about traditional, whatever artwork or whatever in the background of someone's home, it can be a detriment as well, as you force people to keep on the cameras. But I genuinely hope that we really don't make excuses for avoiding accessibility because we're too lazy to and uphold the accessibility that we really broken through to. So, I truly hope that this remains, which, I mean, it provides so much opportunity and prosperity to people who wouldn't otherwise have access to it, when we were accommodating. And we must do that and must continue to do that.Ana:And I really want to go back to one of the points that Nicole made, about how we were told that all of the remote working was impossible. We have people with disabilities who would thrive in a work from home environment, who were told, no, we can't make this accommodation for you. And then, literally the pandemic hit and suddenly now, oh, well, yeah, of course, we can Zoom in, of course, we can Skype in, of course, we can do all of these things. We can provide VPN access for everybody so that you can have the server access that you need. One of the great things about social media, that I will go kind of get back to that as well, is that I'm able to access the conversations that are being had within communities, without having to insert myself into the conversation.Ana:So, as I follow different people and I follow different communities, I'm learning more about the struggles that they're dealing with and then, being able to go research for myself. So, I intentionally follow a diversity of people on Twitter. And so, listening to the frustration of the disabled community saying, we've been asking for this for years and now all of a sudden, magically, we're able to do this because ableds need us to do it. And the frustration that goes along with that. So, that inequity and that chasm that was there and it's still there now, because now the ableds can work from home, the disabled community is, again, being left out of the conversation and being left out of the opportunity. So, it's really interesting to see how some of the gaps have closed and how some of the gaps have been widened.Jolie:As a final question. I'd like to ask about moving from those, sort of, big picture, long-term changes, the things that feel like they're the domain of large technology companies to change their practices around captioning or corporations with thousands of employees, do you have suggestions to our listeners for small changes they can make in their day-to-day lives to ensure greater access, accessibility and equity for the communities they are a part of or contribute to?Nicole:That's a really good question. And I would actually say that, a large group of people making small changes is what can really move the tide, in terms of moving into more accessibility. Because if social media companies realize that, you're on Twitter and you have a photo, you can add alt texts, it really takes just a few seconds. And at first it may seem like, oh, I'm adding a picture, I'm doing all this but when you think about it, once you get into your routine, okay, I'm going to take a picture, I'm going to crop it, add a couple of alt texts then post it, it's like second hand. But social media platforms, they actually, though they set certain tones, they do follow the users. So, they're little things like adding alt texts, adding captions to your Tik Toks, which I'm learning right now, is really going to help make things accessible for people and make it such that well, all the people I follow on Twitter are adding alt texts.Nicole:All the people I follow on Tik Tok are adding subtitles, why can't you Twitter? Why can't you? I've definitely seen an uptick of people actually investigating into accessibility technologies. And, again, I'd like to say, start small. Even with me, in the higher level, I started small, I started with doing alt texts, I started with making images accessible on websites. Then I started captioning, then it expanded. But every day you can learn something that's going to help somebody meet you where you are and help you meet others where they are. It only helps you and it only helps businesses, it is not a chore. It is an essential task and it's a beautiful thing to be able to reach more peopleAna:And the normalization of it all. And not doing it in a way that is shaming other folks who join in with you. But, for example, when I introduced myself, almost always now, I just use my pronouns at the end, just to normalize the fact that, yeah, this is how I identify and I recognize that, so that if there are those who are non-binary that they feel comfortable saying, oh yes, thank you, my pronouns are this, without having to say, please use my pronouns and recognize me as a whole person. And so, the same is true with access. Alt text is something that is really not that hard to do and yet, so few people do it. And, again, the normalizing of it. It's hard at first but if we do it little by little, individual by individual, group by group, it becomes a thing where the bigger companies, like Nicole said, will follow suit because it's the thing that everybody does just out of hand.Jolie:Thank you both so much for talking with me today. If you're interested in learning more about what Nicole is up to, you can visit her website, nicolemichelle.com and follow her on social media. For information about ICS happenings, you can follow us on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, @icsbgsu. You can listen to Big Ideas wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Please subscribe and rate us on your preferred platform. Our producers are Chris Cavera and Marco Mendoza, with sound editing by Ryan Cummings andMarco Mendoza. Research assistance for this episode was provided by Stevie Scheurich.

We can't wait for you to hear Nicole's incredible VBAC story! She is a successful, driven mama of two and owner of The Polished Playhouse. You will feel her resiliency over and over during this episode. Nicole shares with us her firsthand experiences with racial bias during her first birth and along her journey to VBAC. You will also be inspired by how Nicole overcame challenge after challenge giving birth at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. We talk about the reality of racial bias in the birth world, why you shouldn't trust the VBAC calculator and a way that anyone can advocate for change. Have the courage to set yourself up to feel safe with your birth team and get that supportive birth experience you deserve!Additional linksNicole's Instagram: @polishedplayhouse Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act of 2020The VBAC Link on Apple PodcastsHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Julie: All right. Good morning Women of Strength. We are so excited to be here with you today as we always are. I think every guest that we have brings this different kind of excitement with them. Today we have Nicole with us who is amazing in 360°, just all-around. We were just chitchatting with her before we started the episode today and she is an incredible, incredible, incredible woman. I cannot wait to share all of those interesting details and information about her with you. But before we do that, Meagan is going to read a Review of the Week for us.Review of the WeekMeagan: Okay, so this is from holmclaugh90. It says “I listen every day. After a traumatic Cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second! Love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing I can do this!”That was put in last July, so that means last October she would have had her baby. So holmclaugh90, if you are still listening, shoot us a message. We would love to know how things ended up.Julie: Absolutely. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for the review. You know we always love them. They are near and dear to our hearts.Nicole's storyJulie: We are so excited today to have Nicole with us. Nicole is really exciting. I just pulled up her bio. We have a form that we have our guests fill out before they come on our show so that we know a little bit about them. The more I read about Nicole, the more I am just like, “Oh my gosh. I need to know more about this. I need to know more about this. I need to know more about this.” The first one that caught my attention was she is a social media content creator. She has a really awesome Instagram page called Polished Playhouse. It's all one word, @polishedplayhouse. You can see the link to that in our bio. We are going to drop it there for you, so you can give her a follow. But she-- oh my gosh. There are so many amazing things. She creates curated boxes for children ages three to five years old with books and all sorts of educational things in them for your toddlers. I am sitting here, I am like, “Okay. I need to order these boxes. I need to sign up for the subscription box when it comes out,” because there are some really amazing things. I think that what really stuck out to me the most is she is including things with diverse backgrounds and diverse cultures. So her books have black children in them as main characters. She is a black woman living in Maryland. I'm excited to talk to her because I want to talk about black birth in America and how bias influences how people of color are treated in the birth space. We can talk about numbers all day how black women are two to three times more likely to have a Cesarean and three to four times more likely to die in childbirth just due to race. Guys, this is straight across the board. It is not influenced by socioeconomic status, education levels, income, any part of the country, there is this bias against people that exist in the birth room and I'm really excited that we are going to talk about that today. One of the things that Nicole said is that having a black provider to support her in a VBAC was very important for her because of that bias that exists. And so I'm excited that we are going to be able to hear about it from somebody who has lived through it, who is living through it, and who has come out on the other side having a hopefully-- I am making some assumptions now. Hopefully, having a very supportive experience for her VBAC. And so I am just going to sit here and geek out over her on her Instagram page while she is sharing her story.But she is incredible and I just can't wait to hear from her. And so instead of keep talking about it, I am just going to go ahead and turn the time over to her so that you can hear amazing Nicole's VBAC story.Nicole: All right. Thank you so much for this generous and kind introduction. I was a member of y'all's Facebook group and then also listened to the podcast all the time, so it is a huge honor to be on your show today.Julie: Aw, thanks.Nicole: As you mentioned, I am Nicole. I have two sons now. I have one who is four years old and then I have the second one who is seven months. I had my first son in 2016 and then had the second one in 2020. For my first son, I started care with a gynecologist that I had seen since college in the DC area. We had a pretty good relationship, so when I got pregnant, I just decided I would continue on with her. I had a pretty healthy pregnancy. There weren't any issues that came up. I was doing prenatal swim classes. I did a lot of walking. I was able to manage my diet pretty well. I didn't have any challenges. The doctor that I was going to was very cautious, so at the time, I had a number of different tests that she was running on me. She never told me why. Just a lot of different things that I wish I would have asked about that I didn't being a first-time mom. I didn't know what to ask. But one of the things that I did ask her-- because she was a very popular doctor in this area. So sometimes, my husband and I would go to appointments and it would be standing room only. There was usually space for all the pregnant people to sit, but if you had a partner with you, they would likely have to stand.One of the things that I asked her is, “If you're not able to deliver my baby, then what happens?” And she just brushed it off and she was like, “Oh, well that never happens.” Looking back, there was no way physically that she could have delivered all of the babies. So that just what is something that was lingering for me. If she wasn't able to be there, what would support look like?So the night that I went into labor, I went walking. I was bouncing on a ball and I started having contractions. I went and sat in the bathtub. I didn't wake my husband up. Usually, if I was having Braxton Hicks contractions, I would go sit in the bathtub and they would go away. These did not go away so I started to feel like, “Well, maybe this is it.”I woke him up and he freaked out. He was like, “Oh my gosh. The contractions are too close. We have to go.” We lived about 40 minutes away from the hospital and I chose the hospital simply because it was where my doctor delivered. I didn't know to do any research into the Cesarean rate or anything like that. So the hospital was about 40 minutes away. We got into the car. My mom was staying with us at that time as well. At this time, it is clear I am in full-on labor. We roll the windows down. My husband is barreling down the highway trying to get me to the hospital. We get there. As soon as I get into triage, I come off the elevator. I get there. My water breaks. I get back and one of the nurses asks one of the other nurses to check me. They check and she quickly starts calling for them to send me back. Then, one of the other nurses said, “Well, how far along is she?” I saw her mouth to the other one to say, “Seven.” Once I got to the hospital, my water broke immediately. I was at 7 centimeters. They took me back. My husband had left our car in the middle of the hospital driveway, so he had to go back and move the car. When he went to move the car, I saw my doctor for the first and only time throughout my entire stay at the hospital. She came in and she said, “You know, I know you're at 7 centimeters, but that was the easy part. I really suggest you get an epidural so that you can calm down so that you won't be in pain.”Leading up to that point, I had really wanted a natural birth, but I was obviously in a lot of pain. But she also really pushed the epidural in a way, looking back, in a way where I wish I would have pushed back. My husband was down moving the car so I'm in there by myself and I'm just like, “Okay. I want this epidural.” So I get the epidural. It took over an hour for them to get it. They poked me several times. They just couldn't get it right. So once they finally got it in, I took a really brief nap, and then they woke me up and told me it was time to push.So I pushed, and pushed, and pushed. The nurses were somewhat supportive. Now that I have had a new experience, I really know what a really supportive team looks like, but I ended up trying to push my son out for about two hours. He never went into distress. I was exhausted, but he was fine the entire time. So as I am pushing, I am starting to feel really discouraged. I don't feel like I'm making any progress. My sister was there and they kept telling me, “Well, we can see his hair, so I think he is close. We can see his hair. We can see his hair.” A doctor comes in that I had never, never, ever met before. I had never seen him before and he walks into the room. He put his hand down. He looks at me and he says, “You are not going to get this baby out. We need to have a C-section.”He didn't say anything else. He didn't introduce himself. My husband said, “Well, I need to talk to you outside.”Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: Yes. The only reason I can remember what he even looks like is because my sister has a picture of him.Julie: Wow.Nicole: He didn't tell us his name. Nothing. He was like, “There is no way you will push this baby out. You need to have a C-section.” So at this point, I am just hysterically crying. My husband goes out and talks to him. He told my husband that my son was just too big. There was no way he was going to get out, if it was a risk of him being paralyzed, just all of these things. So I cried, and cried, and cried, and then agreed to the C-section. I went back. First, I had to go back alone and I just remember shaking so bad. I couldn't tell if I was shaking because of the medicine, or if it was because I was afraid, or what. Finally, my husband came back. They let my husband come in and then I had a C-section. He was 9 pounds, so he was a big boy. He was a big boy, but we didn't get any information aside from the fact that “He is too big. You won't be able to push him out. You have to have a C-section.”So afterward-- when I tell the story, I talk a lot about the parts where I was separated from my husband because I think that's where I felt the least supported because I didn't have him there.Julie: Yeah. He was your voice.Nicole: Yes. They separated me from my husband. I went into a separate room and they were checking me, doing all of these things afterward, and they let my husband go with the doctor and the baby, and then a nurse came in. I heard her talking to the doctor that delivered my son and she said, “But she is allergic to this,” and I heard him say, “It's fine.” The nurse said it again, “No, but she is allergic to this,” and he said, again, in this very direct tone to her, “She's fine.” What happened was, they gave me something that I was allergic to. After I had my son, I broke out in hives all over my body.Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: I was literally digging into my skin. People say, “Oh, well after you have the epidural, you itch.” I'm just like, “No. I've never had a baby, but I can't imagine you are supposed to itch like this.” So they just kept giving me allergy medicine after the fact, and then they put an allergy bracelet on me. This was after I had already had a C-section, after I heard the nurse tell the doctor twice that I was allergic, they put an allergy bracelet on me. And then after that, I see pictures of myself and I am so tired. It's because I am literally just pumped full of allergy medicine because I had this horrible reaction.So after that, we had a decent stay in the hospital, didn't really have any complications from the C-section, but one thing that always stood out to me even now is until I went to my follow-up appointment, I never saw my doctor again. I never heard from her again. Her shift ended while I was having my son and I literally never saw or heard from her again until I went to the appointment. Ahead of the appointment, she sent a review from her office, so she wanted me to review her. And so I think it was out of four stars. I was very generous and gave her three just because I felt like she abandoned me.Julie: Yeah.Nicole: The entire appointment, my first six-week check-up after my C-section, all we talked about was why I gave her three stars instead of four.Julie: No. No, really?Nicole: She never asked. Yes. Yes. She never asked how I was doing. She never asked anything about the baby. She was just so hurt and upset that I gave her three stars instead of four.Julie: Wow.Nicole: So needless to say, I didn't go back.Julie: You should have gone back and changed the review to one star. That's what I would have done.Nicole: I know. Yes.Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: So I was good because I had a really positive healing experience. I didn't have any complications. I really was just like, “Oh, well I am one of the lucky ones. This is okay,” but not until much later did I start to think about the emotional impact of having the birth that I wanted to be changed in really such an insensitive way. So when we started thinking about having a second baby, I knew that obviously, I was not going back to her. I had started researching about VBAC, started listening to y'all's podcast, joined the Facebook group, and really started looking for a provider. I learned a lot about black maternal health which I didn't know before. I learned a lot about biases and a lot of it of just not being listened to, not being heard from black women mirrored my experience.Julie: Yeah, absolutely.Nicole: I really wanted to have a black provider. I found out that I was pregnant in late October 2019. We lived in DC when I had my first son. We had moved to Maryland right outside of DC and I found a practice, all midwives. There were only four. It was a small practice. Two of them were black and then two were white, but they were really, really experienced and from everything I read, it was a really pro-VBAC practice.I went there for care. I had a completely different experience just from the very beginning. With my first doctor, I always felt like I was very sick. With them, I never feel like I was sick. They were just so positive. They kept reassuring me, “You can do this. We think you can do it. We know you can do it.” Never did any type of VBAC calculator, anything like that. They were just really positive.So I was going there. I went there all the way through March, so up until I was about 20 weeks, I went there. I had such a positive experience, always left really happy. March 11th of last year, I went for my 20-week scan. This was right when COVID was just starting. It was just starting to be talks of, “This is a thing. This might change everything for us.” So I went at the 20-week. It was one of the appointments where they were just starting to limit people who could go into offices. So I went to the 20-week scan, everything was great. The next day is when we got an email from work, from my job, that we were going 100% remote. That's when my son‘s daycare closed. It all happened in that same week.And then I was home on my very first day of remote work and I got an email from the midwives that said, “We are so sorry, but after 20 years, we just cannot continue the practice. It's just not financially viable for us, so we will be closing.”Julie: Oh my gosh. This is so much all at once. Oh my gosh.Nicole: Yes. It was the day that the world shut down and I'm sitting here like, “Well, this is the new normal. I work from home. My son is here,” and they sent an email and they said, “This is it.” They would be doing births through May and my due date was July. I could stay on with them until May or I could switch then. I was just completely devastated because I had grown so fond of all of the midwives. I had met with all of them.I knew there was another practice in the same area, so I just thought, “People have positive births with midwives, so I'll just switch to that one.” I continued to get care from them up until around the time that they closed, but I had been researching where I would go. So they closed. I went to my last appointment with them and at that time, I started really looking into also getting a doula. The hospital where I would be delivering had, in maybe April or May when COVID was really bad, they said, “No additional support people,” so, at that time, I couldn't have a doula. I would only be able to have virtual support. I was bummed about that. So I'm looking into the possibility of not being able to have a doula or having a virtual doula and then also finding someone completely new to deliver my baby. I went to one appointment at the new practice. This was, again, the only appointment that I had during my entire pregnancy where my husband was not allowed to come with me. I went to this practice. I went in and immediately it was, I don't know. The energy of the place just did not feel right to me. I went in. I was sitting. I was waiting and then the midwife came in and she said, “I need to do this calculator on you.” And I had heard about the calculator. I heard a lot about the limitations, a lot of the biases that are built into the calculator.Julie: Yes.Nicole: Again, this is someone who did not introduce herself to me. She didn't ask me anything about my--Julie: All she wanted was a number.Nicole: She wanted the calculator. She did the calculator and the calculator said that I had a 30% chance of a successful vaginal birth. She was like, “You know, I mean, I can let you try, but just look at this. Your chances are not good. I'm telling you now.” She said it in a very matter-of-fact way. “Well, I mean, what have you been doing with yourself?” And at this-- I was so sick during my first trimester.Julie: Wait a minute. She said, “What have you been doing with yourself?”Nicole: Yes. She said that because--Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: Because I had a big baby before that there was a chance that I would have another big baby and she linked big baby essentially to me eating too much. So, I know.Julie: Oh my gosh.Nicole: Yes. At this point I was--Julie: And this is a midwife.Nicole: Yep. This was May, so--Julie: Was it a white midwife?Nicole: Yes. This was May.Julie: I think this is where bias is coming into play as well for sure.Nicole: Yeah. Yep. Mhmm.Julie: Sorry, I'm going to let you keep telling your story. Sorry.Nicole: That's all right. She made a lot of assumptions. At that point, I had literally gained nine pounds because I was so sick during my first trimester. I didn't gain a lot of weight at all. And even with my son who was 9 pounds, I gained 27 pounds for my entire pregnancy. And then for my entire pregnancy with my son, I gained 27 pounds and he ended up still being a 9-pound baby.Julie: That's still a perfectly average weight gain.Nicole: And so she asked me, “Well, what have you been doing with yourself?” I am like, “I have been walking. I've been eating hardly. I haven't gained a lot of weight.” She said, “Well, I am telling you now. You will have to get a weight scan close to your due date and at that point, we will decide whether or not we can try for the VBAC.” She said, “But based on this calculator, I don't think you have a good chance.”I said, “Well, I have heard that the calculator is inaccurate.” She said, “Well, we have been having some conversations at the hospital about it, but we still think it is the best tool.” I said, “Okay.” I left there. I literally held myself together just to get to the car and I was so frustrated. I called my husband. I am like, “This is not it. I am not doing this with them, so we have to find someone else.” This was right in the middle of the worst of COVID, so a lot of places were not seeing people in person. They were doing a lot of telehealth visits, especially for someone as far along as me. So I don't know what to do. With the first practice where I was, I had to go to an OB/GYN to get essentially cleared for the VBAC, and the one that I went to, I really liked her. I decided that I would transfer to them. I am like, “Okay. I will just move on from midwives and I will transfer to this OB/GYN.” She was also a black woman. I started the process of transferring to that practice. I looked online at the reviews and the reviews were either a one-star or a five-star. So then I looked further and the practice actually was about 30 doctors and you didn't get to decide. It was whoever was on call, so that reminded me a lot of my first birth where it was just this doctor that I had never met that I didn't have a relationship with, so I quickly got over going there. I got over that and I had no idea like, “What am I going to do?”So my husband has a really good friend that was a doula. She is taking a break right now. He called her and she told us about the hospital where I ended up delivering in DC. She said, “If you want to have a VBAC in this area, that's where you have your very best chance.” So the midwife practice in DC, they are very, very popular. They have all of these rules you have to follow. There's a specific diet and they have different groups that meet, so I just was convinced it was too late. I was about 32 weeks at this point. That was so late. It's the middle of COVID. There's no way they will let me join. They wouldn't let me make an appointment with midwives, but they did let me make an appointment with the OBs. So I went and I saw the first OB. I was very nervous. I am 32 weeks at this point. This is my last shot. So she came in and she was asking me about the birth and she is like, “Yeah, I see that the first baby was really big.” And I just was like, “Oh my gosh. Here we go again.” She is like, “Well, that really shouldn't hinder you.” So I just was like, “Oh my goodness. I think I found my people.”Julie: What a relief to hear.Nicole: Yes, I think I found my people.Julie: Yes.Nicole: So she was really great and that was a white provider. She was really great. She was like, “Well, I don't think that will be a hindrance. We deliver 12, 10, 11-pound babies here all the time.” She obviously gave me the risks for the uterine scar tearing, all of those things, but just in a very informative way, but still very supportive and saying, “We think you can do this.” So because they made my initial appointment with the OB's, I just was convinced, “Okay. This is it. I have to go to the OB‘s.” I went to another appointment. I met another one of the OB's. She was also great and then about 35, I think it was 35 weeks, that hospital, in particular, said, “We will allow doula support again.” I was seeing a prenatal massage therapist and she had been watching the hospitals, like, updates for me really closely. She texted me in the middle of the night, “You can have doulas again at the hospital, so make sure you find one.” At this point, I needed a doula within a week's notice. So I went on Instagram, was reading, scrolling, looking for a doula. I found one doula, a woman of color that I reached out to. I sent her an email and I am like, “I know it's completely late. I am delivering here. I'm having a VBAC. Please, will you take me?” She said, “Well, you know, I really don't come to that part of Maryland. I really don't come to your area, but can I think about it? And then I'll let you know.”We had a quick chat and later, she told me she just was making sure, feeling me out. We had a quick chat and then we signed the contract. She was my doula at about 36 weeks. I met her in person only one time and she suggested to me, she said, “I know you have had these two appointments with the OB's and feel comfortable, but I really think you should switch to the midwives.” I am like, “I am 36 weeks. There's no way they will let me do this.”So when I went to an appointment at about 36 weeks or 37 weeks, I asked one of the OB's, I said, “Do you think they would let me switch to the midwives?” She said, “I don't know. We really don't do transfers this late, but I will ask.” So she sent an email to the midwives and she said, “We have a mom here who really wants to be seen by a midwife. She is a VBAC. She seems like a good candidate. Please, will you do this for her? She really wants it.”For some reason, they said, “Yes.” I went to an appointment at 38 weeks. I went to my last appointment with them and my very first appointment with the midwife. I was 38 weeks. I think it was a Tuesday and I met a black midwife that I had heard about. Everybody talked about how amazing she was and she was just this fierce advocate for black birthing people and she is just amazing. And so my first and only appointment with the midwives was with her and it was just so great. I am like, “Yeah, they did the calculator on me.” She's like, “Oh no. We don't use that calculator.” She talked so badly about it.Julie: Yeah. That's what I like to hear.Nicole: Yes. She was like, “We don't do that. Blah blah blah.” So I told my husband, I'm like, “Oh, I really hope we just get the luck of the draw.” It was, I think, six or eight midwives and I'm like, “This is it. This is it. I really, really want her. I think I will have a great experience with her.” So I went home. I was praying, “I want this midwife to deliver my baby.”I started having contractions the very next day after I met her and I am like, “I don't think this is it.” So I actually went and I did some shopping. I went to FedEx and mailed some packages and my contractions started really picking up. I texted my doula and she was like, “Well if they get a little closer, let me know. But I think this might be it, so you should go home. Take a nap. Lay down.”I laid down for a little bit and the contractions just kept picking up, kept picking up and I knew like, “This is it.” So my husband called the doula. She said, “I won't make it to your house. Just hurry and go to the hospital.” On the way to the hospital, I had to roll the windows down and get air. We were playing meditation on the Bluetooth in the car. We get to the hospital. I say all the time that literally every good person that was available in DC was there at that moment in time from the guy who just literally let us leave our car in the middle of the street and asked if I need a wheelchair if I needed anything. My doula was literally standing right there as soon as we got there. We went up and at this point, I am in full-on labor. I am trying to practice my breathing, doing everything. I get checked in. As I am getting checked in, they say, “Can you call the midwife who is on call?” And then one of the nurses said to the other one, “Which one is it?” and she said the name of the midwife that I had met literally just hours before, this black midwife that I told my husband, I am like, “That's her. She is going to deliver the baby.” And she was on call. At this point, I am bawling because I just cannot believe that all of this has worked out in this way. So she comes back. She checks me and I was 9 centimeters. They had to give me a COVID test. They gave me the COVID test. I didn't even get the results.Julie: Yeah, I was going to say.Nicole: They took me right back. My husband went down to move the car and I'm like, “Oh no. This is déjà vu. This is what happened last time.” But I had a doula with me and she was there and she was advocating for me. I honestly didn't even need any advocacy anyway because they were just so great. So I'm like, “I don't know what's happening. I think I have to push.” I remember the nurse said, “Well, push,” just so casually. So I was sitting there and I'm like, “Okay. Maybe I will try to push or just try to breathe into it.” My doula talked me through some breathing. I was on my back. They called the midwife. They said, “You have to come in here. We think this baby is coming.” My husband got back right just in time. I am literally still fully clothed. At one point, I was on all fours and I heard the midwife say, “Okay, his heart rate is dropping.” And I said, “Oh no.” They all slapped me back into reality and they were like, “No. You turn over and you push this baby out.” So I turned over. I did three massive pushes and he came flying out with his perfectly round head, which was the first thing I noticed about him, and a head full of hair. I just could not believe it. My doula was able to get a really great video of it and I said, “Did I do it?” And they all said, “Yes, yes, yes. You did it! You did it!” It was just such an amazing experience the way everything worked out, just the support from all of the nurses. It was such a healing, liberating, amazing, amazing experience. At no point did I ever feel like I would need a second Cesarean. They didn't even mention it. Everyone was just committed to helping me have the VBAC that I really wanted.I was able to do skin-to-skin with him right away, which I wasn't able to do the first time. I had such a different healing experience. It was just a really, really great experience for us.Julie: That's amazing. If everybody would feel so supported in their labor-- you went through a lot of negativity until you found your people. Like you said, “These are my people.” And to feel so supported during your labor and to know the midwife that was going to be delivering your baby, that had to be such a weight off of your shoulders. That alone probably shifted your entire feeling going into the hospital.Nicole: Yeah. It was such a great experience and the midwife, after I had been with her, she had to leave really quickly because somebody else was having a baby, but when she came back in, I just kept thanking her over and over. She was telling me, “No. You did it. You did it.” And I just kept thanking her over and over because I just felt so grateful that she was there and that she listened to me. I am just forever grateful to her.The VBAC calculatorJulie: That's amazing. There are so many things I want to talk about. Holy cow. We just don't have time to talk about it. First of all, the VBAC calculator is awful.Nicole: Yes.Julie: Let's just talk for two minutes about the VBAC calculator and then I want to get into some current legislation to improve maternal health outcomes for everybody, but specifically with a specific focus on reducing the mortality rates for black people and minority populations. The VBAC calculator, we actually created a bit.ly for it. So if you go to bit.ly/vbaccalc, it will bring up the VBAC calculator. Put in all of your information and calculate it and you will get a percentage, right? First of all, if you're preparing for a VBAC, this calculator is not evidence-based. ACOG discourages even using it and if you have a predicted success chance of less than 50%, it doesn't really mean anything. My first client ever as a doula, my very first client was a VBAC. She was an islander and her VBAC success calculator told her she had a 4% chance. Like, a four. F-O-U-R. She pushed her baby out in 20 minutes, guys. She totally nailed it, right? And so don't let that number discourage you, but what I want you to do is go in there, put your in your information, and calculate your number.And then, change your ethnicity. Change it from white to black and calculate it. Just change only that one thing and when you input black as your race, it drops your chances by 20%, roughly.Nicole: Yep. Exactly.Julie: It's always right around 20% just because you are black.Nicole: I did that. Yep. I did that and I had about a 30% chance when I was black. I didn't change anything else, my weight, my height, anything, and when I took out black, it went up to a low 50%. Yep. It went up a little bit over 20%. Exactly.Julie: And my VBAC, just for comparison, so my VBAC calculator was 62% was for my first VBAC and then when I changed it to black, it dropped it down to 48%. Now that I have a way higher BMI when I calculate it now and keep in mind I've had three VBACs, it takes me being white to 42.7% and when I'm black, it drops me down to the mid-20's.The VBAC calculator is based on a sample size of 7,000 people. They just tried to use all of this data to collect to tell what kind of chances people could have because in healthcare, they love data. They love to see the numbers. They like to know what's going on. They like to predict things. But what they didn't consider in that calculator is the bias that comes in the birth room for black women specifically because our black parents are dying at 3 to 4 times higher rates than white women of the same socioeconomic status, education level, income level, and same parts of the country, and Hispanic people are dying at twice the rate. And so we have this big healthcare disparity, but oh my gosh. It is so hard. I am so grateful for the last year. COVID has totally sucked, but I think there have been a lot of good things that have come about, lots of stirrings, and lots of noise, and riots, and challenges, and things come up where black voices are being amplified and we are hearing them more in our healthcare system. We are hearing them more. I think that's a really good thing, but if you are just some white doula from Utah like I am, what are we supposed to do? How can we influence the healthcare disparity in our local communities? I have an answer, something you can do if you want. I don't know, Nicole, have you heard of the Momnibus legislation?Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act of 2020Nicole: No. I need to look into that.Julie: Yeah. So Representative Underwood is a black female representative in Congress and she introduced the Momnibus Act. It's spelled just like it sounds. It's M-O-M-N-I-B-U-S. It's designed to address the overall-- we are one of the greatest nations in the world, but we have one of the highest maternal mortality rates and that's really sad. But what is even sadder is the disparity of those mortality rates between white people and people of color, and black people are in a separate class. They are even more likely to have Cesareans and more likely to die during childbirth. And so this act addresses the overall maternal healthcare system in improving and decreasing that overall maternal mortality rate but also decreasing the bias that exists in our healthcare system. I'm just going to go over-- you can just Google “Momnibus Act”. They introduced it in 2020. They're making some changes to it and they are introducing it again in 2021.I mean, a lot of some good changes have started to be implemented in 2020 just coming from this, but the bill has 12 key points in it. I am going to try and just go through these super quick.The first one is, “Make critical investments and social determinants of health that influence maternal health outcomes.” So housing, access to healthcare, transportation, and nutrition. “Provide funding to community-based organizations.” So community healthcare in underserved populations, community-based maternal health care, rather. They are studying the risks facing pregnant/postpartum veterans, which, I am a veteran. I served in the military for five years, and so I think that's actually a really cool thing that they put in this bill in addition to everything else. But they want to put effort and money into diversifying the perinatal workforce because Nicole, you said it was really important to you to have a black provider to reduce the risk of bias against you. So this bill has a goal to increase the number of black providers and providers of other color that we have access to in our healthcare system because that's another part of the problem.Nicole: Yeah. Mhmm.Julie: “Data collection processes” so we can better understand the maternal healthcare crisis. “Support moms with maternal mental health” because that's a big thing as well. “Improve mental healthcare and support for incarcerated moms.” “Invest in digital tools to help monitor maternal health overall.” It has lots of other things. I'm not going to keep going on, but one of the things I really like is that it talks here about educating providers about these biases that exist in their space because I know that a lot of the time, we are not aware of our own inherent biases that exist around us.Nicole: Yep.Julie: And I think as white people, it's easy to kind of brush off, “Oh, well I am not racist. I don't treat black people any differently than I treat white people,” but then doing that dismisses the idea. Even if that's true, it closes you off to see what other things you might be doing or what other things exist in our healthcare system that are biases against people of color. And so I think that's a big thing for me right now is just being more aware. I have had, I know me and Meagan have both had clients-- other nations, Asian clients.My biggest one I had was a Hispanic client and man, there was such a bias against her. I can't even tell you the amount of crap we had to deal with in the birth room and this is just here in Utah. And so we have seen and experienced it ourselves, but I think when you say, “This is not a problem because I am not a problem,” really closes you off to help fix the problem. So what I want you to do right now if you're listening and you want to help change this big gap in maternal health care for black women and other women of color is I want you to go look up your local state representatives and senate members and send them an email, or just Google “Momnibus Utah” or “Momnibus” in your state because each state has their own ways of introducing the stuff. I know Utah, maybe not all the states do, but most of the states have their own versions of the Momnibus Act they're integrating at the state level as well. Google your state representatives. Google your state Momnibus Act and send a letter to your representative, to your local legislator, and tell them that you support this, that this is important to you, and you want them to vote to move this forward and start implementing this across the country because that is the biggest way to get things to change from the top is letting your state representatives know that this is a big issue for you. When they hear the voice of the people that vote for them, that's the biggest way to get them to change things. Even get a community petition started, or something to where you can bring this up to your local leaders in our country, but also focus on your state as well because there is-- gosh, I wish I had the information in front of me. There are ways to reach out and I don't know. There's somebody here in Utah that was in charge of introducing a Utah version of the Momnibus Act. Gosh, it is just missing from my brain right now, the information. But giving feedback to our leaders, giving feedback to our leaders is what's really, really important and then being aware. Don't say, “Hey, I am not a problem because I don't treat black people differently.” You say, “Hey, this is a problem. Let me be more aware of it,” and just observe. Even observing and being more aware of the actual problems and what they look like is going to help you be more cognizant of things you can do to help change them. And then as birthing people, stand up for yourself. Change providers. Find your voice. I know it's not as easy as I make it sound. It's easy for me to say that, right? But getting educated about your options. Knowing like you knew, Nicole, that the VBAC calculator is crap. It is just crap. But you knew that. But somebody that doesn't know that and doesn't know that it is biased against black people is going to say, “Oh my gosh. I only have a 30% chance of success. Maybe I just shouldn't do this at all,” and then they have a repeat Cesarean which increases your chance of maternal death anyways-- a very small amount, but then, I mean, it's just a huge escalation. So being aware of the racial disparity in our healthcare system, and then observing it, and seeing what it looks like practically in your local area, and then speaking up and emailing your state representatives and your state government leaders about the Momnibus Act are things that you can do right now, today in order to help improve this change, and being aware of it, and stepping up for people. If you witness people of color, whether you are white, black, Asian, Hispanic, whatever your ethnicity or your background of your color is, speak up if you're witnessing this. If you're seeing this happening, speak up and say, “Wait, this is wrong.” I guess it could just be regardless of whether it's due to race or not, but you should always speak up if you see somebody being mistreated in the birth room. But also, don't be afraid to file complaints against the hospital or against the provider because that's another thing that is just going to bring more awareness of what is going on in our local communities. Sorry. I feel like I've been talking for just a really long time. Nicole, what would you add to that?Nicole: I think everything that you said is important, but I really want black women, women of color to know it's okay for you to advocate for yourself. It can be very tiring and very exhausting on top of what should be a very happy and positive experience but don't be afraid to advocate for yourself and don't be afraid to switch providers. If you go see someone and you get a feeling just in your interaction with them that you will not have a positive experience with them, don't be afraid to switch. I switched three times in the middle of a pandemic and it was honestly the best decision that I ever made. I would also suggest if you can, get support from a doula, or a partner, or a trusted family member so you always have someone else there to give voice to what you're saying, what your needs are, what you are experiencing, but just really advocate for yourself. Don't be afraid. Don't think you're being too much, or you're asking too many questions, or you are being too aggressive, this is your life. It's the life of you. It's the life of your baby. Advocate for yourself and don't be afraid to do that.Julie: Absolutely. I think that's so, so, so important. I love that you switched providers twice. But I've had clients, and I know we've had several people on our podcast, switch providers until they find the right fit. If somebody is treating you wrong, you have the right to leave providers and go to a different birthing location, even if it's in the middle of your labor. I know that sounds really hard and scary, but people have done it. It's been done. All right, Nicole. Thank you so much for being on our podcast today. I am seriously fangirling over here on your Instagram. I love your subscription boxes. Seriously, we are going to be doing something with that I think. Like, your monthly subscription. I want to get my hands on these diverse books for my kids. I really do. It's a really important thing for me. I'm happy that we found you, and that we connected, and that you shared your story, and especially for allowing us to talk more about the healthcare disparity with black people in our country. So thank you. Thank you for spending that time with us today.Meagan: Yeah. Thank you so much.Nicole: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

The Choreographed Chaos Girls decided to take a much needed break before we officially start Season 2 of the podcast on February 4th, but we didn't want to leave you too long without a little dose of our special kind of chaotic energy. Prior to starting our break, we recorded this episode discussing holiday traditions, Nicole's greatest life accomplishment in an ornament, and our 2021 resolutions. Enjoy this holdover episode that we couldn't let go to waste while we reset and refresh for Season 2! **Special note from Nicole: So it turns out that the soup can ornament that I talk about A LOT in this episode, is in fact not the top of a soup can but the top of a juice concentrate container. Which means my whole life has been a lie or that I am dumb, probably a combination of both. **

Discover where your child falls on the sensory preference spectrum and how you can use this information to determine what kind of workplace best suits them. Learn more about Chelsea at www.chelsea-whitaker.com and you can check out her online, on-demand course, The Parent's Guide to Discovering Your Child's Dream Job at: https://chelsea-whitaker.teachable.com/p/discovering-your-childs-dream-job/ Chelsea: Hi everyone. This is Chelsea Whitaker, and I'm here with my sister Nicole today. We're talking about a parenting hack: how your child's sensory preference determines where they'll be most successful. I'm talking about sensory preferences based on Dunn's model of sensory processing that we use in occupational therapy world. We use this to identify how individuals relate to their environment with all their five senses and how they process those senses and how it determines their behavior. Although this is created for people with autism, I find it relates to everyone of all different ages. In fact, it has helped me be more successful and knowing in what environment I'm going to be most comfortable. It relates to you as a parent because knowing your child's sensory preference is going to help you set them up for success and the job environment that works best for them. So, we're going to talk about four different sensory preferences: sensory seeking, sensory sensitive, sensory avoidant, and low registration. Nicole: So, Chelsea. This is like a really technical occupational therapy thing, but I get it because you go around behind me making fun of me, kind of saying "sensory seeking, sensory seeking" because you recognize that I'm sensory seeking and I need lots of noise, lots of things to look at, and that's just how I work best. If I'm in a room where it's totally quiet, I'm going to start talking or I'm going to start singing because I need to fill up that room with noise because I can't handle being in a place that's totally quiet. So, auditory sensory input... that's just one type of sensory input. Beforeyou describe each of the four sensory styles and preferences, so parents can see which applies to their child, tell me about what sensory input is for each of the five senses. Auditory, like I said, is music... Noises... Having TV on in the background, people having background conversations. It can be as simple as like the humming of an air conditioning system or the humming of lights tapping on a computer, tapping on a keyboard... Chelsea: Right, and once you see the brightness of colors, the number of objects you have to process. If you're driving, you have to process all the signs, the road signs, the smells, wherever you go. If you go to a restaurant, there's going to be some strong smells there, but if you go to a block where there are several restaurants, there's going to be a lot more restaurant smells to process at one time. Nicole: What about taste? Chelsea: So if you add a lot of spices to your food, or if you find that food is bland without a lot of salt, a lot of pepper, you would be more sensory seeking, but somebody who just can't handle the texture of certain foods, like apple sauce or cottage cheese, they might be sensory sensitive or avoidant.

Discover your child's strengths & aptitudes and how they will help you uncover your child's dream jobs. Learn more about Chelsea at www.chelsea-whitaker.com and you can check out her online, on-demand course, The Parent's Guide to Discovering Your Child's Dream Job at: https://chelsea-whitaker.teachable.com/p/discovering-your-childs-dream-job/ Chelsea: Hi everyone. I'm Chelsea Whitaker and I'm here with my sister, Nicole, who is a lawyer and a successful business owner. And today we're going to talk about the most effective way to identify your child's strengths and aptitudes. Nicole: Chelsea, why is this so important to identify your child's strengths and attitudes? How does that relate to finding their dream job? Chelsea: It's important that you discover what your child is good at, because that's going to keep them motivated to continue down that path. Usually when you're passionate about something, you're also good at it and you get good feedback from other people and internally just knowing that you're doing a good job and that's going to keep you on that path to success. Nicole: Right? The jobs going to be easier for them, if they're naturally good at it... Chelsea: Right. Nicole: So, can you give me an example of how someone's strengths and aptitudes relate to the type of dream jobs that they might have with their potential dream jobs? Chelsea: Sure. The person that comes to my mind is our mom. Now mom is actually a customer service rep, and now she's a gas dispatcher at BGE... Nicole: Our local electric utility, right? Chelsea: Right. But I really think if she were to do it all over again, thinking about her strengths, how outgoing she is, how much she cares for other people and just her wanting to hear other people's stories. I really think that she could be in an advocacy or caregiving profession such as working at a nursing home, being an activities director, being a caregiver or social worker, or even a cruise director. She really likes to listen to other people. She's a strong advocate. She's an excellent listener. And she's able to identify and manage her emotions as well as other people's emotions.

Treasure Time Podcast: Growing Up Happy Title: Helping parents “quit the chaos” through mindfulness Episode 12   About our hosts: Sophia  https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophiagiblin/?originalSubdomain=uk A creative entrepreneur who focuses on ways to tackle the root of children's mental health through play and secure relationships. Due to her own challenging experiences in childhood, Sophia went on to establish a thriving Play & Creative Arts Therapy charity to support other children who have experienced trauma. Her focus is on helping therapists, businesses and charities have more of an impact for children and families that they work with through coaching, strategy, fundraising and mentoring. Nicole  https://www.linkedin.com/in/mcdonnellnicole/ Nicole is a mum to two young boys, who also has over 20 years of brand marketing experience. She is a previous Chair Trustee at Clear Sky Charity and has past experience on the Ella’s Kitchen board.  Her roles have included Marketing Director, Head of Ella’s-ness, Global Brand Director with responsibility of creating and building one brand inside and out – including the wellbeing and culture of the team.  Nicole was instrumental in growing Ella’s into a multi-million pound international business, driven by the mission of creating healthy children. About Treasure Time Our vision is to drive connected, happy parent-child relationships, for the benefit of the whole family. Our mission and passion is to educate parents in how to become happy, mindful and confident in connecting with their own children through play.    About our guest Nikki Wilson https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikki-wilson-9571086/ Nikki is the founder of 10 of zen - a new social business providing mindfulness tools and training to help mums to stress less and love more. Nikki focuses on soundbite sessions lasting 10 minutes or less, covering hots topics like how to slow down and manage big emotions. I run a zen squad, train professionals working with women and deliver regular workshops UK-wide. Did you know that Nikki is also leading the growth of Make Birth Better - a unique collective of parents and professionals dedicated to ending suffering from birth trauma, who focus on campaigning, education and research.   Resources Treasure Time website https://www.treasuretime.co.uk/  Treasure Time digital course for parents - https://www.treasuretimeapp.co.uk/shop-page Treasure Time Instagram @treasuretimeuk  Treasure Time Facebook https://m.facebook.com/treasuretimeuk/ 10 of Zen website www.10ofzen.com  Free meditation tools from 10 of Zen https://www.10ofzen.com/welcometothelibrary   Value bombs and tweetables: - The way I like to describe mindfulness is that mindfulness is the art or the practice of becoming more aware of our present moment experience and learning to welcome what we find with a kind and open heart - Nikki - What I thought was super fascinating when I was doing my master's research was that parenting mindfulness can break that transmission of trauma and insecure attachments. So the studies show that parents who practice mindfulness and presence can give, give it to them that sense of security, which impact down the generations which is so incredible - Sophia - It was during those treasure time play sessions that I recognized that I didn't ever give myself time to just be – Nicole -  I started to build in 10 minutes meditation a day... And it's exactly what you were saying Nikki it’s the one thing that seems to be perfect in the toolkit, it just resets me and something just works – Nicole - So the only way to create lasting change in healthy habits is to start really, really small. So I'm talking about rather than saying I'm going to meditate every day for the next 20 days, start with setting an intention to take three deep breaths when you wake up in the morning so ideally piggybacking something, so maybe my commitment is going to be to savour the flavour of my cup of coffee every day. My commitment is going to be to walk a bit more slowly between the moment or I get off the train into my office. To start with small realistic take that piggyback on something they are already doing. That is the best quick fire way to put a mark in the ground around a behavioural habit - Nikki - We're always saying, “Let your child be your play teacher”. So now we can let our children be our mindfulness teachers, too. We can learn so much from them - Sophia   Subscribe   Apple | Google | Spotify | Stitcher | iHeart   Sponsors You're listening to a podcast produced by A PODCAST COMPANY. This show was made by podcast syndicator where we help you go from start to grow to make money with your podcast. Let us help you share your message and your voice with the world. Reach out now. Jason@apodcastcompany.com to find out more. Thank you for listening and do come back to hear more shows like this.  1) Hey, don't miss out on a free webinar! Learn about how to launch a profitable podcast in just 60 days!  https://www.apodcastcompany.com/webinar-registration35642385  2) Take your podcast from idea to execution in just 6 weeks!  https://www.apodcastmasterclass.com/podcast-launchpad  3) Join our Exclusive Facebook group to Make Money Podcasting: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PodcastPeople/

Treasure Time Podcast: Growing Up Happy Title: What should I do when my child always wants to win in play? Episode 9   About our hosts: Sophia  https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophiagiblin/?originalSubdomain=uk A creative entrepreneur who focuses on ways to tackle the root of children's mental health through play and secure relationships. Due to her own challenging experiences in childhood, Sophia went on to establish a thriving Play & Creative Arts Therapy charity to support other children who have experienced trauma. Her focus is on helping therapists, businesses and charities have more of an impact for children and families that they work with through coaching, strategy, fundraising and mentoring. Nicole  https://www.linkedin.com/in/mcdonnellnicole/ Nicole is a mum to two young boys, who also has over 20 years of brand marketing experience. She is a previous Chair Trustee at Clear Sky Charity and has past experience on the Ella’s Kitchen board.  Her roles have included Marketing Director, Head of Ella’s-ness, Global Brand Director with responsibility of creating and building one brand inside and out – including the wellbeing and culture of the team.  Nicole was instrumental in growing Ella’s into a multi-million pound international business, driven by the mission of creating healthy children. About Treasure Time Our vision is to drive connected, happy parent-child relationships, for the benefit of the whole family. Our mission and passion is to educate parents in how to become happy, mindful and confident in connecting with their own children through play.   Resources Treasure Time website https://www.treasuretime.co.uk/  Treasure Time digital course for parents - https://www.treasuretimeapp.co.uk/shop-page   Value bombs and tweetables: -  I could actually stand back and let them decide what the rules were - they would change constantly! - and I would be able to watch their little frustrations kind of fizzle away as they practiced this themselves - Nicole - So what happens is when children feel like they don't win enough, they'll change the rules so that they can win – Sophia - We have been resisting flexing the rules as we don't want to let them win all the time, not realizing that in play this isn't the time for the lesson, “you can't win them all!”  - Nicole - Sometimes I think that we worry or there's a fear that if we always let them win, or if we go soft on them, that there'll be a sore loser. But the opposite is often true. Children who never have the chance to experience feeling of winning may never feel good or capable within games - Sophia - Boundaries sound like very short statements that are not there to be argued with. So here are some examples. Shoes are for the floor, not the sofa. Food is for eating, not for throwing, water is for the bath, not for the floor – Sophia - Without limits, there is no safety. So children actually really need limits and boundaries to feel safe. And sometimes we might feel mean putting boundaries in place, but children really need them, and they thrive under them. And when they don't have clear boundaries, they can feel a bit wobbly and a bit unsafe - Sophia   Subscribe   Apple | Google | Spotify | Stitcher | iHeart   Sponsors You're listening to a podcast produced by A PODCAST COMPANY. This show was made by podcast syndicator where we help you go from start to grow to make money with your podcast. Let us help you share your message and your voice with the world. Reach out now. Jason@apodcastcompany.com to find out more. Thank you for listening and do come back to hear more shows like this.  1) Hey, don't miss out on a free webinar! Learn about how to launch a profitable podcast in just 60 days!  https://www.apodcastcompany.com/webinar-registration35642385  2) Take your podcast from idea to execution in just 6 weeks!  https://www.apodcastmasterclass.com/podcast-launchpad  3) Join our Exclusive Facebook group to Make Money Podcasting: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PodcastPeople/  

Rhonda: Welcome to this episode of Divorce Conversations for Women. I'm your host, Rhonda Noordyk. There's one common thread facing everyone that's contemplating divorce or even in the midst of divorce, and that is, you don't know what you don't know, right? So I want to make sure to ask the tough questions so that you can get the answers that you need. In today's episode, we're going to dive into the topic of negotiation for women. This episode is sponsored by Courageous Contemplation, our online course. So, if you're contemplating divorce, I want you to check out womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/events. I am so excited today. I am joined with Nicole Martin and John Tinghitella. To learn more about Nicole and John, we've linked their website and additional information in the show notes. You can also check out their website at www.nofearnegotiation.com. I want to get started here today. I am so excited that you guys are here because I feel like this is a topic that definitely deserves to have its own podcast episode. So, I'm a woman facing divorce, right? What's the one thing that we want the women that are listening to know about negotiating? Nicole: It's so interesting, Rhonda, because I think that if you think of it with that directness of the question, the one thing I would say to a woman that's really thinking about negotiation is first the fact that it's a two-way discussion or conversation or exchange, and that they are worthy no matter what they are feeling or how they're feeling as they approach that table, that they are worthy equal in that conversation. And the question is, do they feel equal, first of all? Are they prepared in that conversation when they come forth? And are they also ready to listen? Because like I said, it's a two-way exchange. That's probably the first thing I would say. I don't know, John, what would you say? John: I think that's a really good starting point. I think the power to listen is crucial to any successful negotiation. But to back up even another step, negotiation is just another word for managing relationships. Negotiation tends to have a negative connotation in a lot of people's minds, which creates resistance, which creates people not wanting to do it, which usually means they end up with a bad result because they kind of faded out when they should have leaned in. But that said, the ability to listen upfront is absolutely crucial. There's also a realistic connotation to negotiation that needs to be addressed and managed. It's the fact that negotiations, by their nature, are highly competitive, and we have to be careful in a negotiation to realize there's a clear winner and loser. This is not a ballgame with a time clock and a score at the end. This is people managing their lives going forward, and everyone has to leave, not so much with a victory, but everyone has to leave with what matters to them. And Rhonda, in your discipline of managing women through the extremely difficult dynamic of divorce, they tend to be highly competitive, highly adversarial, and a lot of times there are winners and losers, and that's just not healthy. It's a horrible outcome and our goal is to have positive outcomes. Rhonda: And so I agree, and I love the perspective of it being built on relationships. I've got a client right now who is ... her attorney is a guy, then there's her husband and his attorney is a guy. And she's at the table feeling like nobody's listening to her. And so, the preparation part, I think, is super important, number one. And so I've been working behind the scenes with her to help prepare her to have some of those conversations. I think, Nicole, you mentioned the worthiness. Man, that is probably one of the most challenging pieces as women are going through divorce, their confidence has been shattered. Can we talk about the worthy piece? Do you have any suggestions or tips as they're going into this? And I don't like the whole fake it ‘til you make it thing, but I think ... Are there some specific things that women could be doing to build up, like, I'm worthy to have this conversation, and what I have to say is important? Nicole: Well, and we actually kind of put forth three letters with what we do with our process within negotiation specifically, No Fear Negotiation. And the first letter is M, and M really stands for changing your mindset. And I think for women, especially going through relationships, I can recall a particular instance for myself personally where almost every relationship that I'd had where it had come to an end and I was leaving, my counterpart in that relationship had actually driven me to a place of guilt where you're feeling like you weren't working hard enough or you didn't do enough or you need ... this is your fault that you're letting go and you're the quitter or something to that effect. And I would say that the strength that you derive as a woman through that exchange knowing that you're not to be made to feel less than and that you have tried, and feeling justified in the fact that maybe you've tried and you've come to this decision, because surely for a woman, by the time she's had that conversation, she's thought about it probably for months, if not years prior. So, she's already separated herself from it, but she can be drawn back in or even worse, just emotionally brought down. Nicole:  And I would say for a woman that's coming into that exchange, it's really important from a worthiness perspective to honor your internal voice and what you know is right for you. And knowing and having faith that you're a child of God and that that other individual is special and a child of God as are you, and it's your responsibility to speak truth, and it's your responsibility to walk in your truth. And when you're walking in your truth and you speak from a place of love, not anger, not rage, but love, where probably ... and hopefully something started, you can still love somebody and not be in love with them. And if you can bring yourself back to that place of love for that other person, then you can hopefully look in the mirror and say, but more importantly, I love me and I know this is important for me, and for what reasons. And find a mantra that reinvests that voice in yourself so that you stay strong. Whether that'd be for you, if you can't do it for yourself, do it for children if you have children in your relationship. Do it for something outside of you that makes you strong. But you must get to the place where it comes from within. Nicole: And sometimes, if you've been deceived or betrayed or you feel wronged, it's really important to talk to somebody else. And I think therapy is a great thing. I think getting a resource, somebody to talk out loud to help you reinforce you until you can reinforce yourself is, I think, critically important. Rhonda: Huge. That's huge. That is really huge. And I think spot-on, right, to all of the things that you're saying, because I do think that most of the challenge when it comes to having these types of conversations and negotiating is a lot of that is our self-talk, right, and how we're showing up for the meetings. As I've been working with women, there was one girl in particular that comes to mind. I mean, she has just been full of guilt and feels super bad about her situation. And I mean pretty much couldn't talk about it without, I mean, doing the ugly cry. And we finally got her to a point where she could show up for the meetings, and still, there's some emotion, but it wasn't like that level of not being able to really clearly think through certain aspects of it. And she's a smart woman who has a lot to offer, but she needed to be able to show up in those meetings in that way. And I know that for her, that was a really big win. I felt like I could contribute. Rhonda: Now, the challenge with that is when the other person or people in the meetings aren't used to that particular individual having a voice. There now becomes a level of ... a little bit of a ... it seems to be a little bit of a power struggle in those situations because they're used to being able to just dominate the conversation, and now she wants to be part of the conversation. She's got some good points to bring up, and so it's a whole new level of listening and hearing that is required on the other side as well. Nicole: Right. We have to remember we can only control ourselves. And so, I see, more a woman who is at that table and she's maybe finding her voice and her inner strength. It's important to come, like I said, from a place of love because not everybody grows at the same pace. And so sometimes if you have a man across the table from you who you at some point in time loved and hopefully can still love, then you're coming to a place of maybe adding some extra words, some extra things that you prepare yourself to say to affirm that you respect the other individual. I think if you're coming at a place of disrespect, then yeah, you're going to trigger another individual. And so, one tip I can say just from working with human beings, in general, is to say the word “you”, actually, you should never say the word “you” in any negotiation or collaborative context, unless it's a compliment. You come to the place of I. And a woman can own her I voice all day long just as a man can. Nicole: And as long as the woman is actually coming from a place of I, I feel, I expect, I would like, I have left with this feeling, I own, I all day long, and avoid the word “you” unless you're giving a compliment. And find other ways to wrap the conversation so you're not triggering an event of diagnosing somebody when you're not a doctor in a negotiation situation. What do you have to say about that, John? John: And Rhonda, thinking rather than Nicole, what's important to keep in mind here too is the power of the letter M, as in mindset. Hopefully, mindsets have been changed before a divorce situation occurs, but if not, it's part of a lifelong evolution. And the thing about negotiation in our book, we call it a simple repeatable process to improve your life. And M is the first letter. It's changing of the mindset. And that's an easy thing to say and a really hard thing to do. There's been a 100,000 years of social programming where men have had the power differential in the world. We get that, we totally get that. To just ask a woman to snap her fingers and change her mindset overnight is highly unreasonable. Nicole: Good luck, right? Rhonda: It's not happening. John: It's a possibility. And the idea of the mindset is you don't change it just to get through this divorce situation. You change it for the rest of your life and everything else that you do. Stop managing relationships. There's nothing about using negotiation tools to manage the relationship. And the idea here is we're pursuing great outcomes and we're preserving relationships. That's what we're trying to accomplish. And that's why M is so powerful as the starting point. As we go forward, there are two more letters. I'll let Nicole kick off the second letter here in just a second, but we have to start with the adjustment and evolution of a new mindset. Rhonda: Well, and can I get one thing here quick? Nicole: Yeah. Go, Rhonda. Rhonda: I was looking at some of the great materials that you guys put together, and one of the things that I noticed that kind of resonated with me was the fact that 70% of people prefer to avoid negotiation. And if I could do a show of hands 5, 10 years ago, that was me, like, oh my gosh, just the thought of having to negotiate created anxiety for me because I didn't have the right mindset around that particular situation. But now that I have learned how to do that and I'm continuing to learn how to do that, it takes a little bit of the pressure off when we say, “Hey, listen. Let's look at this on how can we create win-win outcomes? How can we preserve relationships? How can we respect the”... I mean that's essentially what everybody wants. In an ideal world, we want to preserve relationships; we want to be heard; we want to respect other people; we want to be respected in return. Like, oh, that's the gold standard, right? Rhonda: And yet, because we, particularly as women, don't know how, and probably many of the women that are listening to the podcast, right, you might not know how, but if you knew how you could do it, right? And so, I love the fact that it starts with the mindset piece, knowing that only 30% of the people really kind of embrace that, we have a lot of work to do. Nicole: Yeah. And I think there's something that John and I really talked at length about, which is really this concept of the tension of opposites. And I think John could probably speak to it the best, but that we have to honor the fact that yeah, there is a tension of opposites, and I think ... John, you want to speak to that really quickly? John: Absolutely. And I think we chose the phrase tension of opposites because we're actually quoting it out of a famous book, Tuesdays with Morrie, written by Mitch Albom. And in it, Morrie said, essentially, we all live in the middle. And life is like a set of rubber bands that we're pulling. But we essentially live in the middle. We're relatively normal people doing normal things. Unfortunately, we have a present-day media that is barking at us from the edges, but the whole world basically lives a relatively middle existence. And that tension of opposites speaks to how we need to approach people. We need to understand that everyone has a need and the power of listening. And this is more, I think quite frankly more of a guy evolution. But the power of listening creates the opportunity to find both of us in that middle. Once we find that common ground, we can negotiate effectively, because again, the whole objective here is that we get great outcomes and we preserve the relationship, which means we both have to, I won't use the word win, but we both have to flourish in this experience. Rhonda: Yeah. Absolutely. So we've talked about the M, the mindset. What's the next one, Nicole? Nicole: The next letter that we have is P, it's preparation. And I think we emphasized, John and I, the importance of preparation. And many people walk into situations daily not fully prepared and it only resorts to them being reactive, rather than proactive in what the outcome is going to be quite honest. And so, preparation is something where we say that we like to start with data. So how many women are actually coming to the table with data versus just their emotions? And we're not talking about data that's going to trigger emotion, that's going to put the other counterpart down. It's going to actually say, well, you didn't give me this and you didn't do that, because remember we said we're not going to use the word you. So we have to come back and say, okay, how do we start with data by saying I? Nicole: And then confronting those emotions that you're bringing emotionally to the negotiation table, especially in a personal situation such as divorce. You must confront your emotions and you must try to get to the place where you're coming to the table unemotional and with love. And that may take a lot of preparation. That may take role-playing that may, that may take a lot of investment in time getting ready for that day, whatever that day might be, and become the other side. You must become the other side. You must think about where the other person's coming from. You must think about how they're feeling. You must actually reside in their shoes for a moment mentally to say, “what is this person trying to do out of this exchange? What do they need to walk away from?” And I think for women and men, it's really unique. We always say that men are motivated by results and that women are motivated by effort. And when you think of that, and we're coming to the conversation at the table, women can do the work if they have this process. We call it the PST: the process, the sequence, and the tools. Nicole: So when you have the preparation of our PST, as we call it, process, sequence, and tools, right, so ladies, get your PST on, right, if you have that, then ultimately you're going to be able to come to the table without those emotions. You'll have some data, some facts. Hopefully, you'll be coming from both sides. You'll have a little information about what you hope or presume or think the other person wants and how you've taken that into consideration, and you're going to invent some options prepared in your mind, know what you're willing to accept, your thresholds, your tolerances, etc., and you're going to have bracketized offers, as we call it, meaning you've worked and done all the thinking to the point that you've come to the table unemotionally with actual options that are truly representative of both sides so you can kind of start to talk of a new alternative for you both of shared creation. That is really important. And I think ... John, why don't you talk about the key thing, which is most important, the final tip to our PST, as we call it, on preparation. I'd love for you to talk about just agenda. John: Well, it's interesting. One of the great things about P being the second letter in our sequence is a data point of one I observed in my life certainly with the wonderful women in my life. They're amazing life preparers, and I never ... I mean guys sometimes marvel. They may not admit it, but they marvel at the ability to multitask and manage through a myriad of issues on a daily basis, and it takes enormous preparation to accomplish that. So I think preparation comes naturally to certainly most women that I know. And the great thing about doing the preparation in the sequence that Nicole laid out, in the book we use an arrow. It's a six-step process. The great thing about it is it creates muscle memory. And once you've done it once, it gets easier the second, third, fourth time. I'm someone who had to embrace negotiation early on. I was one of the 70%. I didn't want to do it. But as I did it, the muscle memory kicked in and it became rote for me to a point where I now embraced it. John: And what Nicole was referring to with the last step of preparation, and this is, believe it or not, it's painfully simple. It's the formation of an agenda. I own a business now, but most of my career came from the sales or customer-facing end of the world, and I've made over 5,000 sales calls in my life. And virtually every time I did that, I had a piece of paper in my hand or something that laid out a few bullet points or a larger discussion of how we were going to frame this meeting. And in almost every single case, the other side would say, “Oh, thanks for bringing that. I'm glad you did that. Let's use that.” You have now subtly taken control of the meeting, not in a bad way, but you frame the discussion to where you believe it really needs to go. It is a simple and constantly overlooked tool that every time we bring it up we get people's eyebrows to raise because when it happens, it almost always creates an opportunity in an environment for great outcomes. Rhonda: Right. No. This is fantastic. In preparation with data, this is something that very much resonates with me, and I want to encourage the women that are listening to really grab ahold of this, because I always say, listen, I don't want us to assume. I don't want us to assume that the other person isn't being honest. I don't want to assume that we don't have all the information, but I do want to encourage women. I want to encourage you to gather the facts, get the data, gather the statements, organize the information, ask questions. One of the tools that we use is a financial private investigator. If there are concerns from a local or national level that there is information that's missing, let's go run the report. Let's find the information. If it comes back and there isn't anything there, then we know. If there is, then we'll deal with that information as it becomes available. Rhonda: But it becomes this ... The entire divorce process, I think if women can look at it as a fact-finding mission to say, “Hmm, isn't that interesting? Okay. Let's ask some more questions. Let's gather information.” I think they will really feel empowered as they're going through the process, because there's really four kinds of big rocks with that, finding the data, determining how to actually file for divorce. The next one is gathering all the financial documents, getting all the passwords, organizing all of that information. Then it's filling out the financial disclosure statements and all the paperwork associated with that, and doing a comparison between what their husband brings to the table and what they're bringing to the table as far as what they're disclosing. And then it's, okay, well, now we've got that information, we're going to put it into a property division worksheet and we're going to analyze that data, and then we're going to have some negotiation about what's in whose column. And then the last piece is the marital settlement agreement, that final divorce decree that we're going to again, analyze the data, review the facts, right? Rhonda: So I want to encourage everybody that's listening to say, Hmm, isn't that interesting? This step, the mindset piece, huge, right? The data piece, super important to this process. Of all of the things, this could be related to the divorce process, one of the most important. And it's getting the data as early on as possible in the process because once you start to kind of go down that divorce path is when things start to sometimes move or shift around. So, the sooner you can get your hands on the data, the more prepared you're going to be as you go through the process. The average divorce process is 52 weeks. That's an entire year that women have to set and reframe their mindset, continue to gather data, right, which is an important piece of this whole process. I love that part, such an important piece. Nicole: Well, and I think a lot of that was about the preparation, but as you're saying, we agree, preparation is probably the biggest weight emotionally or otherwise that you bring to any negotiation table. But really the fireworks can start to fly, I think, in any negotiation, especially in the context of a relationship, like divorce, when you're starting to ask for something. Nothing really is going to happen or hit the fan until that, right, John? John: Absolutely. Nicole: And we have a path to ask, and it's again, another one of our arrows in our process in our book, but it starts with that aspect of listening that comes to really getting to the other side. But I'm somebody that’s been ... I've been in relationships. I've never been divorced. But I can tell you even in the relationships that I had prior to the marriage that I have, it felt probably similar to what I imagined divorce to feel like because I'd lived with those people for years. And I think that John has a personal experience, and having him on this call is really important because he's a divorce survivor. And I think that someone who's been through this, been there, done that, can speak to it and maybe offer a unique lens to the women on the call because we really believe that the path to ask as we call it, which is where you listen, you precap, you think about all those options again and you start to build and make your case for what it is you're asking for. Nicole: You have to be able to bring things to the table to help substantiate what you're asking for and why and recalibrate that potentially based on the give and take of the conversation in exchange. But then you're ultimately hoping to ask and receive. Stay in the bracket that you've designed in terms of your acceptance, what you can live with, and then ultimately the accountability of what we call the 24-hour rule. So John, I'm going to let you really walk through a story maybe that you can speak to on the path to ask and help the women as they might embark on their journey. John: Absolutely. I'll use an example if you don't mind. It's non-divorce related. It's a business-related experience, but it's extremely relevant because the path to ask is really parallel in everything you do in life. And I'll make it relatively quick. I managed a wonderful young lady who became a sales manager for me a little over 25 years ago, and we had a very important customer in our world, who was extremely big and extremely difficult. And they prided themselves on being extremely hard. It was a high testosterone environment, extremely hard on anyone who walked in the door who was attempting to sell or supply them with products, which we were trying to do. In fact, they went so far and they were so bold and brazen about it they put a big sign over their door called Club Brutal, and the whole idea where you needed to know you were walking into a pretty nasty place. John: But what made it even more insidious, Rhonda, is that it was guys roughing up guys. But on those rare occasions when a female sales manager would walk in the door, they prided themselves, and this is really, really, really terrible, it was institutional bullying. They prided themselves on getting the woman to cry. And so, this young woman, who's now working for me, I had been through the Club Brutal a few times and I had my scars, but I did all right, and I needed to work with her to prepare her for this experience. And she had certainly heard all the rumors throughout the market in the industry. And I asked her if she needed some assistance up there and she said, “No, no, I'll handle it. I got this.” But she wanted a lot of preparation, and we dove in for two solid weeks and we prepared. And we pushed every button there was to be pushed, and we did role-playing. We looked at every possible scenario, and she had more data than they could possibly imagine. John: She went up there. She did her job, she got what she asked for, she nailed it, and she didn't cry. And from that day forward, we came up with the title for the book and that's why it's called, No Fear. That's the idea. It's a little anecdotal, but the idea of no fear is that we don't go in in a fearless, crazy way. We go in a no-fear environment where we have more preparation on our path to ask. So, when we get to the point of asking, it works. The third letter in our three-letter sequence is the A. The hardest part of negotiation is the ask. All of what we've done here, every bit of mindset change, preparation, walking the path to get there, is meaningless unless at that point in time someone asks for something. Rhonda: Absolutely. Well, I am so excited to be able to dive into that a little bit deeper. We're just going to take a quick break and we'll come back and talk about, in detail, how do we ask, right, and how do we prepare for that ask. So, I know that both of you, John and Nicole, have shared some really great tips around negotiating and I want to explore that further in just a second.   But first, a reminder that today's show is sponsored by Courageous Contemplations. It is a great place for you to start if you are contemplating divorce. And as Nicole said, you can stay in that spot for months, sometimes even years, and this is going to give you a clear pathway to know what you need to know before you make that final decision on whether you're going to stay or whether you're going to go. So, with that, you can check out that Courageous Contemplation course, www.womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/events.   So back to the show. So let's go ahead and dive a little bit deeper into the third key pillar that you talk about, which is ask. Give us some tips around how to do that. Nicole: I think that when you think of the path to ask, and obviously John gave a great example of how it works in the context of a business scenario, which everybody can relate to, and I think what happens is in a business scenario, sometimes women can come into that logically and unemotionally. But when you come into your personal relationships, just like men, we are all extremely emotional. I think it's fair to say that we really need to think about what we're experiencing, which is in some cases it can be traumatic, it can be sudden, it can be grief-stricken. And I think most of us if you're not the one that's initiating the divorce, you could be stuck in some of the stages of grief. And the first stage of grief, which I'm sure many have heard of is denial. And you certainly don't want to come to a negotiation table when you're stuck in denial, and you certainly don't want to go into a negotiation table when you're in the second stage of grief, which is anger. You really want to get through those first stages of grief. However, you need to work through those stages of grief, before you approach the bargaining table. Nicole: But I think once you reach the third stage of grief where you're bargaining, a woman has already worked through, as far as I'm concerned, this is hard to say, but women go through hurt. You might cry when you realize something's not changing. Something's not changing and then you have to come through the hope. I think all women work through the hope that “Oh, this can change.” And then they ride that wave for a while. And then there's this sad day when you ... and that's denial for me. And then you get to this stage someday where you realize, “Oh okay, this isn't going to change.” And then you might get angry, and you get angry at the other person. You guys might fight and battle, and that could have led to months or years in a relationship, right, Rhonda? So, it's like you’ve got years of this, and that could be that second stage where you're working through just being angry with someone because they're not working with you. And how could they be doing this to you? And again, it's that you statement. How could you do this to me? Nicole: And instead of coming back to the place of power and self advocacy and control, which women are not necessarily good at, and that's something we say is critical to the path to ask, as a woman to come to this place of bargaining and not a place of not complacency or not caring, sometimes women go straight from denial and anger to, I don't care, which is a defense mechanism. And so, you need to come back from that to a place of no, self-advocacy. I care enough to care enough about me and you so that we can move through this. And that bargaining approach, coming to that table at that stage, that's when you're ready to start with the path to ask. Rhonda: Well, and I have ... The place of complacency, I want to address that for just a minute, because how I see that manifest with the women that are in the early stages of divorce is, “Oh, everything's going to be amicable. He said he's going to give me this. He said he's going to do this.” So they kind of check out, right? It's from a place of really believing that the other person has their best interest in mind, but I think women are doing a disservice to themselves if they stay in that spot, because I will say all day long, “Hey, if this thing ends up being amicable and you guys are in a spot where it really does go smoothly, I will be the first person to celebrate with you. However, my experience tells me that that isn't always the case. And so, we're going to plan as if…” Right? I want them to be involved. I don't want them to be complacent. I want them asking those questions. I want them to have the right mindset. I want them to be prepared, and they're going to be in a better spot to have those conversations. Nicole: Absolutely. And I think people ... Part of the preparation process that we're talking about, especially something specific with divorce is preparing yourself that you're going to have feelings even when you get to the bargaining table, even if you've thought you've worked through this already. And so, I want John to be able to speak to that a little bit, which is you're still working through stages of grief. I mean be prepared for the fact that you're going to feel something, and you may still feel like a great loss and a great sadness. And John, can you speak to that a little bit in terms of the path to ask and stages of grief? John: Absolutely. I think it's crucial when you're at this stage going through the various stages of grief, you're in this theoretical bargaining phase. And one thing that is so crucial, I believe, for women to be conscious of is this is a highly emotional life-changing, sea changing experience you're going through right now. It is crucial you stay in the process, stay in the process. We're talking about MPA here. We've asked you to adjust your mindset. We've asked you to do a deep dive of preparation, which you're probably exceedingly good at. So, you've got a lot going on. You are ready; you are on the path to ask; and, you're at that point where things are now going back and forth and there's give and there's take, and it's easy to jump out of the process because you just want it to be over. The hard part of the final part of the path to ask is staying in your bracket. We call it that because as Nicole mentioned earlier, in preparation, we create these bracketized offers and we use the phrase bracketized to emphasize that you're not going to drift out of your bracket. You've created what makes sense. I have a great offer; I have a realistic offer; I have a fallback offer, but I'm not leaving that bracket. I'm not saying okay at the final minute just because I want to go home and make this stop. John: Same thing is true in a business negotiation except multiplied by 1,000 here because of the extreme emotional environment that we're dealing with. It's the same basic desire to just get over it because I don't want to do this in the first place. It's crucial to stay in that process because if you changed your mindset, if you fortified yourself with great preparation. You are ready and you are okay. You're ready to have a great outcome and manage this relationship forward. At that point, the asking becomes much, much easier. But the key recommendation for me is number one, staying in the process, and number two, this is a criticism, sometimes women are guilty of, don't overthink it. John: Now, we know that there's a lot going on here. There's a lot of missiles flying through the air. If you can stay in your process and don't overthink what the downstream implications can be, even though some of that is absolutely crucial, I think I've observed certainly with women in my life, the overthinking, or the ability to overthink themselves out of what's right, and then a disagreement with themselves down the road. “Why didn't I do that?” I see it all the time with women in business, who overthink the desire to increase their compensation in their particular job. They've overthought it so much, they've talked themselves in and out of it to a point where they won't get to the point of asking. So many times women are guilty of that. Again, my two, stay in the process, don't overthink. Rhonda: One of the things ... and I love that. One of the things I wrote down, John, was to set realistic expectations for the people that they're working with. And what I mean by that is I think a lot of times through the divorce process, women are expecting their attorneys, in particular, to do the negotiating for them. And I don't know that that's a realistic expectation. There may be times when the attorney will negotiate, but the women are really the ones who need to do all of the things that we talked about and come to the table prepared. And a lot of times I'm working with them behind the scenes to help prepare them to come to the table and have those conversations. So, I wouldn't say that they have to do it on their own, but I would say, setting those realistic expectations for the attorney that they're working with, for their financial expert, even with their therapist. Those are the three core professions that I feel like should come and surround you if you're going through divorce, right, at minimum, because you need this team of people. But you've got to set realistic expectations for them as well and know that the bulk of the responsibility will fall on you because you're the one who needs to really come to the table prepared. John: Exactly, Rhonda. And I would summarize that. I think you said it very, very well. I'd summarize that by saying don't outsource the expectations. The attorney, he or she is the go-between. They may be the mouthpiece. They may be the hired gun, so to speak, but they don't decide. You decide, and you utilize their strengths in the back and forth. And sometimes it can get a little rough but don't outsize your own expectations. You own that. Rhonda: That is a tweetable quote right there, John. Yes. Don't outsource the expectations. Absolutely. And I think it comes with being able to communicate those expectations, which is having those assertive conversations that Nicole, you were alluding to those I statements, right, and just making sure that you can ... I always say divorce is two things. It's managing risk and managing expectations. And if you can do those two things, you are going to be able to navigate through a really challenging and difficult process as unscathed as possible. John: Absolutely. Rhonda: Oh my gosh, this has been so awesome. And I have to say that I think I'm going to have to go get your book because I'm looking forward to just really diving even a little bit deeper in some of these conversations. Nicole: Well, you’ll like that it's practical, Rhonda. It's a short read. We made it that way on purpose. And the reason we did that, John and I are coming from a collaboration from a male/female perspective obviously, our partnership in writing this book together and setting it forth. But I think that we made it practical and referenceable, so you'll pick it up again and again and kind of plug yourself into the arrows and the process, as we call it. And the reason is because we hope that you create a habit of negotiation and we actually hope that you take this forth as a new tool, and it's something we intentionally avoided, Rhonda, telling you, do it this way, go about it this way, do this. It's much more about giving you the process, the sequence, and the tool so you can plug yourself into it and bring the magnificence of you. Like John said, don't outsource that, own it. Bring you, based and grounded in humility and confidence and self-advocacy and self-love on to that place of healing, and plug yourself into a proven process that's simple and repeatable and hit the bargaining table ready. I mean the book is meant to be used - not theory. It's practical. So we love hearing that you're going to pick it up. We hope it empowers you and takes you forward. Rhonda: Yeah. Absolutely. Oh my goodness, this is so great. I think it's, again, it's such a great topic. But as we kind of, as I say, land the plane, right, during our time together, I first want to just say thank you so much for sharing your brilliance, your expertise, your passion, your candidness, your vulnerability with my audience. Any final thoughts, closing remarks, as we kind of wrap up our time together? John: I'd just like to say one quick thing and then I'll hand it off to my partner here. I think part of this experience too, we end the book at a place where we realize women are tremendous life coaches to people in their life, both young and old, but for the young people coming up, particularly women mentoring boys, emphasize how important it is for them to evolve to a point where they eventually in their life, they need to respect girls and absolutely come from a place of decency and respect and build your life, your business life, your personal life with that in mind. I think we can do better there as a society, and it is getting better. I observe it all the time, but we can continue to do better. Nicole: I love how ... and John has been saying that since the beginning, Rhonda. I'm a mother of boys and I love knowing that we can have that invitation and receive it and see it forth, as well, as women. As somebody who has been through trauma and somebody who has survived trauma and been through loss and come out on the other side through positive healing, even exited people from the workplace, right, Rhonda, and I have some of those people I have fired become Facebook friends. How do you move forth from things whole? And so I'm going to give you my favorite quote, which I live by and I'm going to hope that it helps every woman that you're working with come to this place, which is, “Presence is more important than just being present. And I think that if a woman thinks of her presence, the power of her presence, the brightness of her presence, the vision and the dream of what she sets forth, how does she project love and light, and how can she move forth whole? What does she need to do to replenish her presence?” Nicole: And if she can do that, if she can find the ways, whatever it takes to fill her soul cup and replenish her presence, she shall be whole. And she shall go forth and she shall help another soul. And I think that every woman, no matter how much she's hurting right now, she just regards her presence, honors her presence, and I believe good God bless Louise Hay, what you feel you can heal. Feel it. Honor your feelings. Even if you're speaking to someone your truth, like I said in a negotiation and you happen to cry, you know what, God bless it. Let somebody see how you feel, but make sure it's coming from love, not anger, and honor your presence and move forward. And I would leave a woman with that. Rhonda: I love that. I would like to give a huge thank you to Nicole and John for being our guests today. If you'd like to get in touch with them, feel free to check out their website, www.nofearnegotiation.com. We've also linked their bios and some additional resources and information in the show notes, so be sure to check that out. Today's episode has been sponsored by Courageous Contemplation, our online course. So if you find yourself contemplating divorce, I want you to check out womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/events. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of divorce conversations for women. I'd love to have you as part of the conversation. Simply comment on this episode. Drop us a review on iTunes or get involved anytime at www.womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com. I'm Rhonda Noordyk and I help you know what you don't know about divorce. ________________________________________ Contact Information and Other Resources Our guests today were Nicole Martin and John Tinghitella No Fear Negotiations for Women Nicole Martin is Chief Empowerment Officer and Founder of HRBoost, LLC, an HR Shared Services consulting firm based in Chicago, Illinois. Her business has been honored by multiple organizations including most recently as a 2017 Annual Awardee for Business Excellence by the Daily Herald Business Ledger, and a 2016 Enterprising Women of the Year Champion by Enterprising Women Magazine. A sought-after expert, her knowledge and advice have been featured in newspapers and magazines throughout the country. Recent publications in which she has been seen include Forbes.com, the Daily Herald Business Ledger, and Fast Company. Nicole has authored, PWN International Literary Award and #1 Amazon Best Seller, The Talent Emergency, the accompanying Talent Emergency Guidebook, The Human Side of Profitability, and The Power of Joy & Purpose. Nicole serves on Advisory Boards dedicated to Best & Brightest® Companies to Work For, Social Service in the community and Women in Business. To learn more about Nicole, go to www.hrboost.com or www.nicolemartin.live  nmartin@hrboost.com | (847) 736-5085 x 103 ____________________ John's career has taken him from the trenches of sales management, to the corner office, to owning his own business so he can realize his vision for success. A self-described "sales guy," he combines a strong sense for the creative solution with a keen focus on building relationships. Collaborative negotiation is his lifelong passion. He's observed first-hand the unfairness of how much women contribute versus the rewards…which typically go to men. His negotiation message is the culmination of a career spent learning, applying, adapting, and giving back. johnt@rvdesigner.com | (845) 313-7747 ____________________ Our host of Divorce Conversations for Women Podcast is Rhonda Noordyk, CFEI Rhonda Noordyk's relentless pursuit of financial justice for women going through divorce drove her to leave the financial industry in 2014 to open The Women's Financial Wellness Center. She was in search of a better way. She used her knowledge, passion, and experience to build a leading-edge business model. The intention was to create a business that provided a safe place for women - especially those in a vulnerable position - to find their paths, find their voices and find the financial confidence they need to lift themselves out of seemingly hopeless situations. Since starting the Women’s Financial Wellness Center, after a 10+ year career in the financial industry, she has helped alleviate financial vulnerability for thousands of women. ​In addition to being the Founder & CEO of The Women’s Financial Wellness Center, Rhonda is also a professional speaker. While her platform is women’s money wellness, it is not just about money. Her topics include: assertive communication, boundaries, leadership and overcoming financial myths. Her speaking experience includes: GE Healthcare, UWM Women’s Leadership Conference and Marquette Law School. In addition, she has appeared on Fox6 News, Real Milwaukee, and Morning Blend. Her dynamic and inspirational style leaves women with a sense of empowerment. Rhonda Noordyk, CFEI  CEO | The Women's Financial Wellness Center rhonda@wfwcllc.com | (262) 522-1502 Facebook | Twitter | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube Schedule a FREE 30-Minute Phone Call ____________________ Sponsored by: Courageous Contemplation (online course) ____________________ Visit the Women’s Financial Wellness Center for a full directory listing of experts. Be sure to reach out if you would like to connect personally with the Women’s Financial Wellness Center. You can visit our website or grab a complimentary 30-minute consult. Leaving a positive podcast review is hugely important: they help the podcast get discovered by new people. Please spend 5 minutes of your time to leave a review on your preferred listening platform, we’d love to hear from you!  

 In this episode of the P100 Podcast, our hosts Paul, Dan and Logan welcome Nicole Chynoweth from the Carnegie Science Center to discuss the center’s new exhibit on mummies. From there we move on to the science of fear, and then on to hockey with their guest, Jeremy Church. This episode wraps up with a review of some unique Pennsylvania town names. We bet you have your favorites.----more----Full transcript here:Logan: You are listening to the P100 podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news culture and more because sometimes 100 words just aren't enough for a great story.Dan: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the P100 Podcast, we're happy to have you back for another episode. I am Dan Stefano, I'm here with Logan Armstrong. Logan.Logan: How's it going?Dan: A pleasure to have you with us and Paul Furiga will be joining us in a little bit. Today's episode we're going to be talking about mummies. Not your mothers, not like that Logan. I see you, that's what you're thinking. No, just having a pleasant thought, thinking about dear old mom. No, Okay.Dan: Now, we're actually going to be talking about the mummies that you might think of whenever you think of ancient Egypt and other parts of the world here. There's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center - Mummies of the World, and we're really excited to talk with someone from the Science Center about that.Dan: Afterward, we're going to be discussing the science of fear. Keeping with us, somewhat of a Halloween type of theme here. Then, we're going to be talking about, what everybody knows, it's the beginning of hockey season. Logan, you excited about that?Logan: No. Dan: No. You're not excited about hockey. Okay. Well, I am and some other people in the office, and we're going to be talking with one of them about the growth of youth hockey in the region, which is really something that's taken off in the past few couple of decades here in Pittsburgh. And we're going to finish up with Logan and I being just as serious we are now. We're going to talk about strange Pennsylvania town names. So if you make it to the end, you're going to be in for treat on that one.Logan: Oh yeah. Stay tuned.Dan: Okay, so let's get going. All right guys, for this segment we're going to talk about mummies. In particular, mummies of the world, the exhibition. It's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center and from the Science Center, we have Nicole Chynoweth. Nicole, thanks for being here.Nicole: Thank you for having me.Dan: Absolutely. Thanks for being with us here. And can we talk a little bit about your own role within the Science Center here. Can you tell us your position and a little bit what you do?Nicole: Sure. So, I'm the manager of marketing, public relations, and social media with a focus on exhibits and the Rangos Giants Cinema.Dan: Great. What does that entail then? I mean, that I imagine you you are working with a lot of different positions there. Right?Nicole: Yeah, it's a really fun job. I get my hands in everything from new movies that we have coming out at the Rangos, educational films to the exciting new exhibits that we're bringing to the science center, from space topics, planetarium related things, and mummies-Dan: Really cool, it seems like a fun place to work. Right?Paul: Nicole, you've had your hands in the mummies?Nicole: No.Paul: Okay. The promotion of the mummies.Dan: The promotion of the mummies. Paul: I'm sure we'll talk about some of the technical aspects, but that would seem a little gross, but...Nicole: I don't think so. I find the exhibition more fascinating than I do creepy. And I'm not a fan of scary movies or I did not watch the Brendan Fraser mummy movie.Paul: You didn't?Nicole: No interest in that.Paul: I did watch those.Dan: You're missing out on a classic from the 1990s.Paul: Yeah. Well, classic is a little strong-Dan: I think it should have won an Oscar, but that's just me.Paul: Okay, Dan. We'll talk about that another time. So Nicole, when I think of the science center, I think about some of the other things you mentioned. Space, technology, mummies?Nicole: Yes, mummies are, especially this show, the mummies featured in Mummies of the World, the exhibition is, have so much to offer in terms of scientific, anatomical, biological information that we can still learn from today. So what I find really exciting about the mummies of the world is that it focuses on both natural mummification and intentional mummification. So, you might be more familiar with intentional mummification. That's the type that was [crosstalk 00:04:15] practicing in ancient Egypt. Correct.Nicole: And we do have some examples of Egyptian mummification in the show, but this also takes a look at the natural mummification process that can happen when conditions are at such a level moisture wise, temperature-wise that is able to naturally mummify a body, be it animal or human.Dan: Right. Well, it sounds like some pretty amazing things to see...Paul: Yeah, it's fascinating.Dan: What are some examples maybe of the intended mummification that we'd see there? I mean, is there anything from, I guess everybody knows about Egyptian mummies but then, they're also South American. What else might you see?Nicole: So an interesting example of the intentional mummification process that aside from like the Egyptian mummies that are featured in the show, there is Mumab, also known as the Maryland Mummy. In the nineties, two scientists at the University of Maryland decided that they wanted to try their hand at an Egyptian mummification process. A man had donated his body to science, and so they started the process of mummifying him. So, you can see Mumab in the show.Nicole: That's just an interesting way of seeing how we are still learning thousands and thousands of years later about how this process works and the tools that they had to use to complete the process and what the body has to go through for mummification to occur.Dan: That's really cool.Paul: Did it work?Nicole: I've been told that it's still in process, it's not completely... He's not completely mummified yet.Paul: Take some time?Nicole: Yes.Paul: Wow. Something I never knew.Dan: That's pretty awesome. Can you tell us what else is in the exhibit then? I mean, are there any, you say interactive portions to it. What should people and families expect whenever they're inside here. It's not just, as you'd be at a museum taking a look. I mean one of the great things about the science center is it kind of hands-on.Paul: Hands-on. Yeah.Nicole: Yes. So in addition, to the 40 animal and human mummies and 85 rare related artifacts, visitors will also be able to look through several interactives related to different topics within mummification. I think a favorite among children will definitely be the, what does mummy feel like a station where you can touch different types of mummified materials, so there's like frog skin, fur. Mummified fur, different things like that they'll be able to touch these like textile panels that are examples of what those things feel like.Nicole: Another great interactive is there's a large map that shows where different types of mummies have been found all over the world, which I think is really important to look at from the perspective of which, like you said, we are so used to just thinking about Egyptian mummies.Paul: Yes.Nicole: And really there are mummies all over the world, [crosstalk 00:07:15].Paul: So not to be surprised?Nicole: Yeah.Paul: You never know where you might find a mummy!Nicole: Right, right.Dan: Okay. Well, people will hear, we can see Mummies of the World through April 19th that's correct, right?Nicole: Correct. Open through April 19th. It takes about 60 to 90 minutes to get through the exhibition, for parents that are maybe wondering if the exhibition is appropriate for their children. We do have a family guide available at carnegiesciencecenter.org/mummies, that might answer some of the questions parents have before they take their kids to the exhibition.Nicole: But I really believe that it is appropriate for all ages and I think people will take something away from the show, be it a new interest in archeology or anthropology or just being able to connect with the backstories of the mommies that are featured in the show. You get to know them. They're more than just a mummy in front of you. You learn their story, how they lived, the way they lived, where they were from. So, super excited to have it at the science center and to be able to offer this experience to Pittsburghers.Dan: That's great. Anything else happen at the science center lately?Nicole: Yes. So, it's Halloween season.Dan: Yes.Nicole: What better time than to experience a scary movie on Pittsburgh's largest screen?Paul: Very good.Nicole: The Rangos Strengths Cinema teamed up with Scare House, this year actually for Rangos x Scare House. We co-curated some Halloween movies together to offer Pittsburgh a really exciting lineup for the Halloween seasons. So we have coming up the Universal Studios Classic Monsters. We're showing the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Frankenstein and Dracula, on October 11th through the 13th.Nicole: We also have Dawn of the Dead 3D showing October 25th and the 26th. And that's a really exciting screening because they don't often show the 3D version. So if you've seen Dawn the Dead before, I can guarantee you have not seen it like this.Dan: This is the original one?Nicole: Yes. This is the original Dawn of the dead. Yes.Paul: In 3D.Nicole: In 3D.Paul: Have you seen it, Nicole?Nicole: I have not seen it. I'm not a huge fan of the scary movies, but I've been told that if there's one I should experience at the Rangos this year. It's probably this one.Dan: All right? Just how big again is the Rangos?Nicole: So we are a certified giant screen. The screen itself measures 72 by 38 feet.Paul: Wow.Nicole: We also have 45 surround sound speakers. Your average theater has 14.Paul: Dan, if you and I can get that past our spouses and into our basements. I think that'll be good.Dan: I might have to tear down a wall or two in my basement, but I think I can handle it.Paul: You know, it's all about the purpose, Dan.Dan: You know what, we're trying to fix more damage to begin with. So I think I could get this Rangos a screen down here. That'd be perfect.Paul: It'd be very nice.Dan: Nicole, how can people find out more about the Carnegie Science Center, both online and in social media?Nicole: Sure. Visit us at carnegiesciencecenter.org or find us on Facebook. Carnegie Science Center or Twitter and Instagram @Carnegie S-C-I-C-T-R.Dan: Okay. Thanks so much for coming on Nicole. We appreciate it.Nicole: Thank you.Paul: Yes.Dan: All right guys. We were just talking about mummies and now we're going to... mummies, if you'll look back at it, they're famous movie monsters, some of the old ones from the 30s, some of the more recent mummy movies and whatnot.Paul: Brendan Fraser.Dan: Exactly, yeah. I love those horror movies and I love being scared. I love this time of year whenever we get a chance to go out to a haunted house. Me and my wife try to do one at least once a year. She's not wild about them, but I have a great time. Even right now in a couple of days. I believe the scare house is going to be reopening the scare houses. One of the more popular attractions around the area of this third winter.Paul: Award-winning.Dan: Award-winning, correct. Yeah. They had to move from Etna and they're in the Strip District. I think they maybe even changed the name to reflect that, but I think, it's interesting that people love to go to these things and they're so well attended.Dan: You see the lines around the block just to be scared and so I've had a chance to go look at the psychology of fear here, and there's an interesting phenomenon that researchers have found called VANE. It's V-A-N-E, and it stands for Voluntary Arousing Negative Experiences. Logan or Paul, you guys ever felt anything like that? Do you have any voluntary experiences?Paul: Yes. Dan, some people call that work?Dan: No. Yes.Paul: I've absolutely. So, I mean, I'm the old guy in the room. You think back to when I was a teenager, the voluntary arousing negative experience was to take the date you really like to a scary movie.Dan: Okay.Paul: I think we're going to get into this Dan, some of the why this is in... Things that people will voluntarily do you, you might not have expected a certain level of affection from your date, but if you took her to a scary movie, there would be the involuntary reaction when something happened on the screen of-Dan: Them getting closer? There you go. That's clever.Paul: Yeah. Well, and it's all this time at least all the scary movies.Dan: I think, when you look at some of the research here, what they point at, one of the most important parts of that is that it `is voluntary and that people were making a conscious decision to go out and be scared. And a lot of that is about overcoming stress. And you might go in with another person, you're working together to try to get through this shared experience here, fighting the monsters, try not to punch the actors who are just trying to have a good time and scare you.Dan: But they get a chance to get outside of themselves, and as we said, face a fear and there's really a great quote here from a woman named Justine Musk. Her quote says, "Fear is a powerful beast, but we can learn to ride it". I think that's just a very good succinct way to put it. But our good friend Logan here, you were actually a psychology major for a couple of years at Pitt and you know a lot about fear.Logan: Yes. So, as you said, I was a psychology major for a few years. I really enjoy just kind of how humans work. But so basically what it is that you have a part of your brain and it's a little almond-shaped lobe called a medulla. But, so basically what happens is that you're, when you see emotions on people's faces or when you see something that would cause you to emote in a certain way.Logan: So, say you see you're out in the wild and you see a lion and you're like, well that's not good. So that message sends to your medulla, which then sends to your limbic system. And if you guys are aware of the limbic system, it's your fight or flight response.Dan: Yes, okay.Logan: When you experience these negative arousals, that kicks into high gear and that pumps adrenaline through your entire body, your pupils dilate, your bronchitis dilates, just you're in this hyper-aware zone, and that's where adrenaline junkies get it from.Logan: It's a similar thing to where you're experiencing fear where you might be scared, but your adrenaline is pumping so much and it's releasing so many endorphins and dopamine that you end up enjoying it.Dan: Well. Okay, now we know whenever we either go to a haunted house or if we go see the mummies exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center, none of us are going to be scared because we know all the science, and we just know what's going on in our brain.Paul: Well, I mean this is also why people like roller coasters shout out to the steel curtain at Kennywood. Because they know it's safe. Right?Dan: Right.Paul: The experience is scary, but it's safe. When you go and see a movie. Yes. You sure hope so. You see the movie, you know it's going to be an hour and 20 minutes or two hours or whatever and when it's over, you may have been scared during the movie, but you're okay. The same with the rollercoaster, three minutes and then you're back in line, right it again. Right? Because you've enjoyed that safe experience of being scared.Logan: And it's the same concept where it's going back to my earlier example. If you see a lion in the wild or you're going to be scared. But if you go to the zoo, you're going to think it's cute or whether somebody else tickles you, you get a reaction, but you can't tickle yourself because your brain knows it's not a threat.Dan: Well, we do see a lot of alligators on the streets of Pittsburgh these days, so I don't know. You know what I mean. Maybe we'll see a lion the next, but I don't know that's all there is to know about fear or at least a good introduction for it. So, yeah. Logan, thanks for the knowledge there.Logan: Sure thing.Dan: Yeah. Maybe you should have stayed as a psychology major.Paul: He won't be here helping us today.Dan: That's a fair point.Logan: Now he's like "you really should've stayed a psych major"Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections are made around fires. As we shared, the stories have shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At Word Wright, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency. We understand that before you had a brand before you sold any product or service, you had a story.Logan: Word Wright helps clients to uncover their own Capital S story. The reason someone would want to buy work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process, visit wordpr.com to uncover your capitalist story.Paul: All right guys. It's a fun time of year because the penguins are back in action. We're all hoping that they can get back to the Stanley cup this year. Who better to have on our vice president Jeremy Church here at one of our vice presidents here at WordWrite. Jeremy, you're involved with hockey and can you tell us a little bit about that?Jeremy: Sure. I've been fortunate to be involved with the game for nearly 40 years now as a player and a coach. Grew up starting about eight I guess in Michigan. Then we moved here in 10 continued to play, went away to prep school and played all through prep school Junior A, was fortunate enough again to play in college and then the last 17 years at various levels. I've been able to coach.Paul: That's awesome. Yeah, Who do you coach with?Jeremy: Right now, I'm coaching my younger son. With 11 Hornets, youth hockey organization. Prior to that, I helped with the high school in Mount Lebanon for five years. Coached at Shady Side Academy for a year and again using the word fortunate was able to go back to the Prep school. I played at Culver Military Academy and coached there for six years and it's a pretty storied program.Paul: That's fair and awesome. Well, Pittsburgh's got a long history in hockey going back to the turn of the century here, pretty much and but from a lot of people, the history and hockey didn't start until Mario Lemieux got here in the early eighties and Jeremy have a fun story about Mario Lemieux actually.Jeremy: I do. There've been two big booms locally when it comes to the growth of the sport. And certainly the first one had to have been when Merrill was drafted back in 1984 so we had just moved here from outside of Detroit and moved to the South Hills and we went to South Hills village one day and the mall was still there. At the time it was Kaufman's Department Store, which is no longer there.Paul: Oh yeah, the mall's there now just no Kaufmann's.Jeremy: So we're walking through and there's a little table set up and there are two or three people sitting there, one of them towers over all the others. And as we get closer and closer, there's no line at all. Mind you, it's Mario Lemieux sitting there signing autographs before he'd ever played a game.Jeremy: So, we walked up to the table, got his autograph. He still really couldn't speak English that well. But if you could imagine today the kind of stir it would create if Mario were around talking at to anyone in any environment. It was the exact opposite back then. I still have the autograph today.Paul: What did you get autographed?Jeremy: They had little teeny pamphlets of him in his Junior A Laval and from the Quebec Major Junior League Jersey, and that's all they had to sign. I think it was him. And it might've been Paul Steigerwald because at the time he was head of showing Mario around town and Mario, for those who don't remember when he was 18 actually lived with a host family in Mount Lebanon for the first year that he was here when he was 18.Paul: Yeah. Well, like I said it, whenever he first got here, he lived with Lemieux.Jeremy: Yeah, he returned the favor.Paul: Well, since that day, whenever there was no line at Kauffman's, today there was no more Kauffman's and you would have a gigantic line. But so what can you say about just seeing the growth of hockey? Especially from a youth hockey angle here, you've been front and center with it your entire life?Jeremy: It's pretty remarkable. Doing a little research earlier and in 1975 there were basically two rinks that you could play out of indoor rinks for Youth Hockey: Rostraver Gardens, which is still around and Mount Lebanon Recreation Center, which is still around.Jeremy: By 1990, when I was in high school, there were 10 and now that figure is roughly doubled to around 20 in the region. There are 62 high school teams and there are 28 organizations in the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League. And within the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League, there are now 5,600 players. And that's for those who are around playing in the eighties or growing up in the eighties and early nineties here, that's almost hard to believe there's, you know that there are 28 organizations, but if you go down through the ranks of 18 and under 16 and under 14, 12, ten eight and under age groups, there's dozens and dozens of teams at various levels all throughout that.Jeremy: So, for last year at the ten-year level, ten-year-old level, there were 80 plus 10 new teams in PAHL, Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League League. So pretty remarkable.Paul: Right, Yeah. The majority of those kids, they're probably not going to be heading to the NHL, but a lot of kids want to at least, pretend that they're one of their heroes and get involved in the game. And I think one of the problems, maybe not a problem with hockey, but one of the issues surrounding it is there is a perception that there is a bit of a barrier to entry. You've got to have skates, you've got to have pads, you've got to have a good helmet, you've got to have a good stick. There's a lot of, there's a lot to that kit there. Jeremy, there are easier ways for kids to get involved in the game today though, right?Jeremy: Yes. Part of the Testament to the Penguins organization and certainly as Sidney Crosby has been, his emphasis and involvement with youth programs and youth hockey initiatives. And not just in Pittsburgh, but I know as well back when he returns to Canada in the summer and throughout the year, he likes to give back to the community.Jeremy: But a big initiative that started, it's now celebrating it's 10 year anniversary or 11 year anniversary is the little Penguins learn to play hockey, where Sid partnered with Dick's sporting goods to give, what is now I believe more than a thousand sets of free equipment out to kids who want to start playing the sport. So that goes hand in hand with a program that I think runs six weeks, eight weeks, in January, February to get kids introduced to hockey.Jeremy: But to your point in that, the big barrier to entry is the cost of equipment, which can be several hundred dollars even for kids that are five, six, seven years old. So that's certainly got a lot of kids involved in the game and has led to those massive increases in participation that I cited before.Paul: All right, that's awesome, Jeremy. Well, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us about hockey. We're hoping for another good season from the Penguins. Maybe a longer playoff run than last year. We got a bit of a break last year. I think they earned it after winning a couple of cups. But yeah, thanks again and yeah, we'll talk to you soon.Jeremy: No problem. Thanks to you.Dan: Right. This next segment. We're going to learn a little more about our co-host Logan Armstrong. Logan is from Eighty Four, PA.Logan: That I am.Dan: Now, we got talking about this and it got us, we started, you know, going down a rabbit hole and we got discussing why 84 was actually named 84? At first, I thought it was named after the construction company the-Logan: 84 Lumber.Dan: Yeah, 84 Lumber, and it turns out I was wrong. That 84 is named after 84 PA, and there's a lot of history and a lot of different theories about how the town was named. Logan, do you want to go through some of them maybe?Logan: Yeah, sure. So there are a couple theories. 84 is quite the town. There's not much in it other than 84 Lumber, but you know, it's nice. There are a lot of theories on how it was named, the most popular of which is that it commemorated Grover Cleveland's 1884 election victory. Some other theories were that it's on mile 84 of the railway mail service. My favorite though is that it's located at 80 degrees and four minutes West longitude. This seems like the most probable to me.Dan: My favorite actually is apparently in 1869 general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton had an outfit of 84 soldiers with them and held off an attack of Outlaws. Now that just sounds fantastic. Yeah.Logan: That sounds quite heroic. If that is the case. I am proud to be from 84 PA.Dan: Maybe you're a descendant of general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton here. Is that possible?Logan: Yeah. I believe I'm Logan "Crazy Toes" Armstrong.Dan: Okay, keep your shoes on man! We don't want to see anything. Well, after this, after we talked about 84 we also started taking a look at some other weird names for towns in Pennsylvania here and if you go online, you can find quite a few of them. Logan, what were some of the interesting ones you like you?Logan: There are quite a few to choose from. A couple of my favorites were, while the all known intercourse, PA, which is actually the most stolen sign in Pennsylvania, where it says "Welcome to Intercourse" for good reason.Dan: Obvious reasons.Logan: Right. Going along that same route, a rough and ready PA was, they named it after a California Gold Rush town, so I guess they're rough and ready to get some gold out there. Can't blame them for that.Dan: I imagine that sign is also been stolen many times.Logan: Right. Okay. Then, well, let's play a game here. I'm going to give you some Pennsylvania town names and you're going to tell me how you think that those names came to be. How's that sound?Dan: Bring them on. I'm a repository of knowledge.Logan: Okay, great. Peach Bottom.Dan: Peach Bottom. This is simple. This is extremely simple. Everybody in the town of Peach Bottom is very short, and they're, but they're also Peach farmers, so they can only see the bottom of the peaches that come from the trees. It's kind of a shame because they've never seen the peach tops.Logan: That is a shame. Those peach tops are so beautiful.Dan: We have an actual reason why it's called Peach Bottom?Logan: In fact, Dan, you weren't too far off, Peach Bottom. Got its name in 1815 from a peach orchard owned by a settler named John Kirk.Dan: John Kirk was very short, as we all know.Logan: Right? Yes. Okay. Shickshinny, Pennsylvania. What do you think of that?Dan: Schickshinny. Ah, got it. Okay. Shickshinny is named after a famous dance created by the person who created Schick shaving blades. Fun fact, a few people realize that he had a dance. Whenever he would cut his face on his old rusty blades, he would do a little jig-Logan: A little jig!Dan: In a big thing because it can... to get the pain away, and so he decided I've got to create a better, more comfortable blade and so he created the Schick shaving blade.Logan: Well, I foresee-Dan: Everybody knows this.Logan: I've foreseen the future...We had the Whip, we had the Nae Nae. Next, we're going to have the Shickshinny going on in all the clubs in Pittsburgh.Dan: I think this one is actually one of those Indian words that have made a lot of Pennsylvania names here.Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It looks like an Indian word that either means the land of mountains or land of the fine stream.Dan: Or land of the cutting your face on your favorite razor.Logan: Yeah, I think that's the most common translation. Yeah.Dan: Sure.Logan: We are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong, and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe at P100podcast.com or wherever you listen to podcasts, and follow us on Twitter @Pittsburgh100_, for all the latest news updates and more, from the Pittsburgh 100.

My guest for Episode 8 of The Startup Playbook Hustle is Matt Jones, the Co-founder of beauty and wellness platform Honee. Matt started his career at ANZ before leaving to start his own startup. Unfortunately things didn't go to plan with this idea, but instead of heading back into the corporate space, Matt joined DeliveryHero, which at that time was at an early stage in their penetration into the Australian market, taking them to 4400 restaurants before getting poached by Groupon. He was then sent to Singapore to lead Quandoo's expansion into the APAC market, soon overtaking the major local competitors before coming back to Australia to join Zomato after the UrbanSpoon acquisition, where he scaled the business to over 100 people, 7 verticals and over $1M in revenue. Matt was then able to take all of these experiences and come full circle to launch Honee, a beauty and wellness online platform. Since launching in early 2016, Honee has signed up over 10,000 venues across Sydney and Melbourne offering more than 200,000 services. They have also recently graduated from the Startmate Accelerator program and closed a $1.8M seed round from Blackbird Ventures as well as a number of Angel Investors. In this episode we talk about: The need to fail quickly How to ask for feedback Deciding when to pivot How to train sales teams   Video recording of the Podcast (now on Youtube) PLAYBOOK MEDIA – Growth through Data-Driven Storytelling THE E-COMMERCE PLAYBOOK ACCELEPRISE AUSTRALIA STARTUP PLAYBOOK HUSTLE APPLICATION    Show notes - Delivery Hero - Quandoo - Zomato - Zomato's Urbanspoon acquisition - Deepinder Goyal - Pankaj Chaddah - Honee - Sean Qian - Collective Campus - Nick Chang - Nicole So - Startup Victoria - James Cameron - Airtree - Blackbird - Startmate - Nick Crocker - Matt Jones (email) Feedback/ connect/ say hello:  Rohit@startupplaybook.co @playbookstartup (Twitter) @rohitbhargava7 (Twitter – Rohit) Rohit Bhargava (LinkedIn) Credits: Intro music credit to Bensound Other channels: Don't have iTunes? The podcast is also available on Stitcher & Soundcloud The post Hustle Ep008 – Matt Jones (Co-founder – Honee) on selling effectively appeared first on Startup Playbook.