Podcast appearances and mentions of paul well

Paul Frazee is the CTO of Bluesky. He previously worked on the Beaker browser and the peer-to-peer social media protocol Secure Scuttlebutt. Paul discusses how Bluesky and ATProto got started, scaling up a social media site, what makes ATProto decentralized, lessons ATProto learned from previous peer-to-peer projects, and the challenges of content moderation. Episode transcript available here. My Bluesky profile. -- Related Links Bluesky ATProtocol ATProto for distributed systems engineers Bluesky and the AT Protocol: Usable Decentralized Social Media Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs) ActivityPub Webfinger Beaker web browser Secure Scuttlebutt -- Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today I am talking to Paul Frazee. He's the current CTO of bluesky, and he previously worked on other decentralized applications like Beaker and Secure Scuttlebutt. [00:00:15] Paul: Thanks for having me. What's bluesky [00:00:16] Jeremy: For people who aren't familiar with bluesky, what is it? [00:00:20] Paul: So bluesky is an open social network, simplest way to put it, designed in particular for high scale. That's kind of one of the big requirements that we had when we were moving into it. and it is really geared towards making sure that the operation of the social network is open amongst multiple different organizations. [00:00:44] So we're one of the operators, but other folks can come in, spin up the software, all the open source software, and essentially have a full node with a full copy of the network active users and have their users join into our network. And they all work functionally as one shared application. [00:01:03] Jeremy: So it, it sounds like it's similar to Twitter but instead of there being one Twitter, there could be any number and there is part of the underlying protocol that allows them to all connect to one another and act as one system. [00:01:21] Paul: That's exactly right. And there's a metaphor we use a lot, which is comparing to the web and search engines, which actually kind of matches really well. Like when you use Bing or Google, you're searching the same web. So on the AT protocol on bluesky, you use bluesky, you use some alternative client or application, all the same, what we're we call it, the atmosphere, all one shared network, [00:01:41] Jeremy: And more than just the, the client. 'cause I think sometimes when people think of a client, they'll think of, I use a web browser. I could use Chrome or Firefox, but ultimately I'm connecting to the same thing. But it's not just people running alternate clients, right? [00:01:57] Paul: Their own full backend to it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. The anchoring point on that being the fire hose of data that runs the entire thing is open as well. And so you start up your own application, you spin up a service that just pipes into that fire hose and taps into all the activity. History of AT Protocol [00:02:18] Jeremy: Talking about this underlying protocol maybe we could start where this all began so people get some context for where this all came from. [00:02:28] Paul: For sure. All right, so let's wind the clock back here in my brain. We started out 2022, right at the beginning of the year. We were formed as a, essentially a consulting company outside of Twitter with a contract with Twitter. And, uh, our goal was to build a protocol that could run, uh, Twitter, much like the way that we just described, which set us up with a couple of pretty specific requirements. [00:02:55] For one, we had to make sure that it could scale. And so that ended up being a really important first requirement. and we wanted to make sure that there was a strong kind of guarantees that the network doesn't ever get captured by any one operator. The idea was that Twitter would become the first, uh, adopter of the technology. [00:03:19] Other applications, other services would begin to take advantage of it and users would be able to smoothly migrate their accounts in between one or the other at any time. Um, and it's really, really anchored in a particular goal of just deconstructing monopolies. Getting rid of those moats that make it so that there's a kind of a lack of competition, uh, between these things. [00:03:44] And making sure that, if there was some kind of reason that you decided you're just not happy with what direction this service has been going, you move over to another one. You're still in touch with all the folks you were in touch with before. You don't lose your data. You don't lose your, your your follows. Those were the kind of initial requirements that we set out with. The team by and large came from, the decentralized web, movement, which is actually a pretty, large community that's been around since, I wanna say around 2012 is when we first kind of started to form. It got really made more specifically into a community somewhere around 2015 or 16, I wanna say. [00:04:23] When the internet archives started to host conferences for us. And so that gave us kind of a meeting point where all started to meet up there's kind of three schools of thought within that movement. There was the blockchain community, the, federation community, and the peer-to-peer community. [00:04:43] And so blockchain, you don't need to explain that one. You got Federation, which was largely ActivityPub Mastodon. And then peer-to-peer was IPFS, DAT protocol, um, secure scuttlebutt. But, those kinds of BitTorrent style of technologies really they were all kind of inspired by that. [00:05:02] So these three different kind of sub communities we're all working, independently on different ways to attack how to make these open applications. How do you get something that's a high scale web application without one corporation being the only operator? When this team came together in 2022, we largely sourced from the peer-to-peer group of the decentralized community. Scaling limitations of peer-to-peer [00:05:30] Paul: Personally, I've been working in the space and on those kinds of technologies for about 10 years at that stage. And, the other folks that were in there, you know, 5-10 each respectively. So we all had a fair amount of time working on that. And we had really kind of hit some of the limitations of doing things entirely using client devices. We were running into challenges about reliability of connections. Punching holes to the individual device is very hard. Synchronizing keys between the devices is very hard. Maintaining strong availability of the data because people's devices are going off and on, things like that. Even when you're using the kind of BitTorrent style of shared distribution, that becomes a challenge. [00:06:15] But probably the worst challenge was quite simply scale. You need to be able to create aggregations of a lot of behavior even when you're trying to model your application as largely peer wise interactions like messaging. You might need an aggregation of accounts that even exist, how do you do notifications reliably? [00:06:37] Things like that. Really challenging. And what I was starting to say to myself by the end of that kind of pure peer-to-peer stent was that it can't be rocket science to do a comment section. You know, like at some point you just ask yourself like, how, how hard are we willing to work to, to make these ideas work? [00:06:56] But, there were some pretty good pieces of tech that did come out of the peer-to-peer world. A lot of it had to do with what I might call a cryptographic structure. things like Merkel trees and advances within Merkel Trees. Ways to take data sets and reduce them down to hashes so that you can then create nice signatures and have signed data sets at rest at larger scales. [00:07:22] And so our basic thought was, well, all right, we got some pretty good tech out of this, but let's drop that requirement that it all run off of devices. And let's get some servers in there. And instead think of the entire network as a peer-to-peer mesh of servers. That's gonna solve your scale problem. [00:07:38] 'cause you can throw big databases at it. It's gonna solve your availability problems, it's gonna solve your device sync problems. But you get a lot of the same properties of being able to move data sets between services. Much like you could move them between devices in the peer-to-peer network without losing their identifiers because you're doing this in direction of, cryptographic identifiers to the current host. [00:08:02] That's what peer-to-peer is always doing. You're taking like a public key or hash and then you're asking the network, Hey, who has this? Well, if you just move that into the server, you get the same thing, that dynamic resolution of who's your active host. So you're getting that portability that we wanted real bad. [00:08:17] And then you're also getting that kind of in meshing of the different services where each of them is producing these data sets that they can sink from each other. So take peer-to-peer and apply it to the server stack. And that was our kind of initial thought of like, Hey, you know what? This might work. [00:08:31] This might solve the problems that we have. And a lot of the design fell out from that basic mentality. Crytographic identifiers and domain names [00:08:37] Jeremy: When you talk about these cryptographic identifiers, is the idea that anybody could have data about a person, like a message or a comment, and that could be hosted different places, but you would still know which person that originally came from. Is that, is that the goal there? [00:08:57] Paul: That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. You wanna create identification that supersedes servers, right? So when you think about like, if I'm using Twitter and I wanna know what your posts are, I go to twitter.com/jeremy, right? I'm asking Twitter and your ID is consequently always bound to Twitter. You're always kind of a second class identifier. [00:09:21] We wanted to boost up the user identifier to be kind of a thing freestanding on its own. I wanna just know what Jeremy's posts are. And then once you get into the technical system it'll be designed to figure out, okay, who knows that, who can answer that for you? And we use cryptographic identifiers internally. [00:09:41] So like all the data sets use these kind of long URLs to identify things. But in the application, the user facing part, we used domain names for people. Which I think gives the picture of how this all operates. It really moves the user accounts up into a free standing first class identifier within the system. [00:10:04] And then consequently, any application, whatever application you're using, it's really about whatever data is getting put into your account. And then that just exchanges between any application that anybody else is using. [00:10:14] Jeremy: So in this case, it sounds like the identifier is some long string that, I'm not sure if it's necessarily human readable or not. You're shaking your head no. [00:10:25] Paul: No. [00:10:26] Jeremy: But if you have that string, you know it's for a specific person. And since it's not really human readable, what you do is you put a layer on top of it which in this case is a domain that somebody can use to look up and find the identifier. [00:10:45] Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we just use DNS. Put a TXT record in there, map into that long string, or you could do a .well-known file on a web server if that's more convenient for you. And then the ID that's behind that, the non-human readable one, those are called DIDs which is actually a W3C spec. Those then map to a kind of a certificate. What you call a DID document that kind of confirms the binding by declaring what that domain name should be. So you get this bi-directional binding. And then that certificate also includes signing keys and active servers. So you pull down that certificate and that's how the discovery of the active server happens is through the DID system. What's stored on a PDS [00:11:29] Jeremy: So when you refer to an active server what is that server and what is that server storing? [00:11:35] Paul: It's kinda like a web server, but instead of hosting HTML, it's hosting a bunch of JSON records. Every user has their own document store of JSON documents. It's bucketed into collections. Whenever you're looking up somebody on the network you're gonna get access to that repository of data, jump into a collection. [00:11:58] This collection is their post collection. Get the rkey (Record Key), and then you're pulling out JSON at the end of it, which is just a structured piece of stuff saying here's the CreatedAt, here's the text, here's the type, things like that. One way you could look at the whole system is it's a giant, giant database network. Servers can change, signing keys change, but not DID [00:12:18] Jeremy: So if someone's going to look up someone's identifier, let's say they have the user's domain they have to go to some source, right? To find the user's data. You've mentioned, I think before, the idea that this is decentralized and by default I would, I would picture some kind of centralized resource where I send somebody a domain and then they give me back the identifier and the links to the servers. [00:12:46] So, so how does that work in practice where it actually can be decentralized? [00:12:51] Paul: I mentioned that your DID that non-human readable identifier, and that has that certificate attached to it that lists servers and signing keys and things like that. [00:13:00] So you're just gonna look up inside that DID document what that server is your data repository host. And then you contact that guy and say, all right, I'm told you're hosting this thing. Here's the person I'm looking for, hand over the hand over the data. It's really, you know, pretty straightforward. [00:13:18] The way that gets decentralized is by then to the fact that I could swap out that active server that's in my certificate and probably wanna rotate the signing keys 'cause I've just changed the, you know. I don't want to keep using the same signing keys as I was using previously because I just changed the authority. [00:13:36] So that's the migration change, change the hosting server, change out the signing keys. Somebody that's looking for me now, they're gonna load up my document, my DID document. They're gonna say, okay, new server, new keys. Pull down the data. Looks good, right? Matches up with the DID doc. [00:13:50] So that's how you get that level of portability. But when those changes happen, the DID doesn't change, right? The DID document changes. So there's the level of indirection there and that's pretty important because if you don't have a persistent identifier whenever you're trying to change out servers, all those backlinks are gonna break. [00:14:09] That's the kind of stuff that stops you from being able to do clean migrations on things like web-based services. the only real option is to go out and ask everybody to update their data. And when you're talking about like interactions on the social network, like people replying to each other, there's no chance, right? [00:14:25] Every time somebody moves you're gonna go back and modify all those records. You don't even control all the records from the top down 'cause they're hosted all over the web. So it's just, you can't do it. Generally we call this account portability, that you're kinda like phone number portability that you can change your host, but, so that part's portable, but the ID stays the same. [00:14:45] And keeping that ID the same is the real key to making sure that this can happen without breaking the whole system. [00:14:52] Jeremy: And so it, it sounds like there's the decentralized id, then there's the decentralized ID document that's associated with that points you to where the actual location of your, your data, your posts, your pictures and whatnot. but then you also mentioned that they could change servers. [00:15:13] So let's say somebody changes where their data is, is stored, that would change the servers, I guess, in their document. But [00:15:23] then how do all of these systems. Know okay. I need to change all these references to your old server, to these new servers, [00:15:32] Paul: Yeah. Well, the good news is that you only have to, you, you got the public data set of all the user's activity, and then you have like internal caches of where the current server is. You just gotta update those internal caches when you're trying to contact their server. Um, so it's actually a pretty minimal thing to just like update like, oh, they moved, just start talking to update my, my table, my Redis, that's holding onto that kind of temporary information, put it on ttl, that sort of thing. Most communication won't be between servers, it will be from event streams [00:16:01] Paul: And, honestly, in practice, a fair amount of the system for scalability reasons doesn't necessarily work by servers directly contacting each other. It's actually a little bit more like how, I told you before, I'm gonna use this metaphor a lot, the search engines with the web, right? What we do is we actually end up crawling the repositories that are out in the world and funneling them into event streams like a Kafka. And that allows the entire system to act like a data processing pipeline where you're just tapping into these event streams and then pushing those logs into databases that produce these large scale aggregations. [00:16:47] So a lot of the application behavior ends up working off of these event logs. If I reply to somebody, for instance, I don't necessarily, it's not, my server has to like talk to your server and say, Hey, I'm replying to you. What I do is I just publish a reply in my repository that gets shot out into the event logs, and then these aggregators pick up that the reply got created and just update their database with it. [00:17:11] So it's not that our hosting servers are constantly having to send messages with each other, you actually use these aggregators to pull together the picture of what's happening on the network. [00:17:22] Jeremy: Okay, so like you were saying, it's an event stream model where everybody publishes the events the things that they're doing, whether that's making a new post, making a reply, that's all being posted to this event stream. And then everybody who provides, I'm not sure if instances is the right term, but an implementation of the atmosphere protocol (Authenticated Transfer protocol). [00:17:53] They are listening for all those changes and they don't necessarily have to know that you moved servers because they're just listening for the events and you still have the same identifier. [00:18:10] Paul: Generally speaking. Yeah. 'cause like if you're listening to one of these event streams what you end up looking for is just the signature on it and making sure that the signature matches up. Because you're not actually having to talk to their live server. You're just listening to this relay that's doing this aggregation for you. [00:18:27] But I think actually to kind of give a little more clarity to what you're talking about, it might be a good idea to refocus how we're talking about the system here. I mentioned before that our goal was to make a high scale system, right? We need to handle a lot of data. If you're thinking about this in the way that Mastodon does it, the ActivityPub model, that's actually gonna give you the wrong intuition. Designing the protocol to match distributed systems practices (Event sourcing / Stream processing) [00:18:45] Paul: 'cause we chose a dramatically different system. What we did instead was we picked up, essentially the same practices you're gonna use for a data center, a high scale application data center, and said, all right, how do you tend to build these sorts of things? Well, what you're gonna do is you're gonna have, multiple different services running different purposes. [00:19:04] It gets pretty close to a microservices approach. You're gonna have a set of databases, and then you're going to, generally speaking for high scale, you're gonna have some kind of a kafka, some kind of a event log that you are tossing changes about the state of these databases into. And then you have a bunch of secondary systems that are tapping into the event log and processing that into, the large scale, databases like your search index, your, nice postgres of user profiles. [00:19:35] And that makes sure that you can get each of these different systems to perform really well at their particular task, and then you can detach them in their design. for instance, your primary storage can be just a key value store that scales horizontally. And then on the event log, you, you're using a Kafka that's designed to handle. [00:19:58] Particular semantics of making sure that the messages don't get dropped, that they come through at a particular throughput. And then you're using, for us, we're using like ScyllaDB for the big scale indexes that scales horizontally really well. So it's just different kind of profiles for different pieces. [00:20:13] If you read Martin Kleppman's book, data Intensive applications I think it's called or yeah. A lot of it gets captured there. He talks a lot about this kind of thing and it's sometimes called a kappa architecture is one way this is described, event sourcing is a similar term for it as well. [00:20:30] Stream processing. That's pretty standard practices for how you would build a traditional high scale service. so if you take, take this, this kind of microservice architecture and essentially say, okay, now imagine that each of the services that are a part of your data center could be hosted by anybody, not just within our data center, but outside of our data center as well and should be able to all work together. [00:20:57] Basically how the AT Proto is designed. We were talking about the data repository hosts. Those are just the primary data stores that they hold onto the user keys and they hold onto those JSON records. And then we have another service category we call Relay that just crawls those data repositories and sucks that in that fire hose of data we were talking about that event log. App views pull data from relay and produces indexes and threads [00:21:21] Paul: And then we have what we call app views that sit there and tail the index and tail the log, excuse me, and produce indexes off of it, they're listening to those events and then like, making threads like okay, that guy posted, that guy replied, that guy replied. [00:21:37] That's a thread. They assemble it into that form. So when you're running an application, you're talking to the AppView to read the network, and you're talking to the hosts to write to the network, and each of these different pieces sync up together in this open mesh. So we really took a traditional sort of data center model and just turned it inside out where each piece is a part of the protocol and communicate it with each other and therefore anybody can join into that mesh. [00:22:07] Jeremy: And to just make sure I am tracking the data repository is the data about the user. So it has your decentralized identifier, it has your replies, your posts, And then you have a relay, which is, its responsibility, is to somehow find all of those data repositories and collect them as they happen so that it can publish them to some kind of event stream. [00:22:41] And then you have the AppView which it's receiving messages from the relay as they happen, and then it can have its own store and index that for search. It can collect them in a way so that it can present them onto a UI. That's sort of thing that's the user facing part I suppose. [00:23:00] Paul: Yeah, that's exactly it. And again, it's, it's actually quite similar to how the web works. If you combine together the relay and the app view, you got all these different, you know, the web works where you got all these different websites, they're hosting their stuff, and then the search engine is going around, aggregating all that data and turning it into a search experience. [00:23:19] Totally the same model. It's just being applied to, more varieties of data, like structured data, like posts and, and replies, follows, likes, all that kinda stuff. And then instead of producing a search application at the end. I mean, it does that too, but it also produces a, uh, you know, timelines and threads and, um, people's profiles and stuff like that. [00:23:41] So it's actually a pretty bog standard way of doing, that's one of the models that we've seen work for large scale decentralized systems. And so we're just transposing it onto something that kind of is more focused towards social applications [00:23:58] Jeremy: So I think I'm tracking that the data repository itself, since it has your decentralized identifier and because the data is cryptographically signed, you know, it's from a specific user. I think the part that I am still not quite sure about is the relays. I, I understand if you run all the data repositories, you know where they are, so you know how to collect the data from them. [00:24:22] But if someone's running another system outside of your organization, how do they find, your data repositories? Or do they have to connect to your relay? What's the intention for that? Data hosts request relays to pull their data [00:24:35] Paul: That logic runs, again, really similar to how search engines find out about websites. So there is actually a way for, one of these, data hosts to contact Relay and say, Hey, I exist. You know, go ahead and get my stuff. And then it'll be up to the relay to decide like if they want it or not. [00:24:52] Right now, generally we're just like, yeah, you know, we, we want it. But as you can imagine, as the thing matures and gets to higher scale, there might be some trust kind of things to worry about, you know? So that's kind of the naive operation that currently exists. But over time as the network gets bigger and bigger, it'll probably involve some more traditional kind of spiraling behaviors because as more relays come into the system, each of these hosts, they're not gonna know who to talk to. Relays can bootstrap who they know about by talking to other relays [00:25:22] Paul: You're trying to start a new relay. What they're gonna do is they're going to discover all of the different users that exist in the system by looking at what data they have to start with. Probably involve a little bit of a manual feeding in at first, whenever I'm starting up a relay, like, okay, there's bluesky's relay. [00:25:39] Lemme just pull what they know. And then I go from there. And then anytime you discover a new user you don't have, you're like, oh, I wanna look them up. Pull them into the relay too. Right. So there's a, pretty straightforward, discovery process that you'll just have to bake into a relay to, to make sure you're calling as much the network as possible. ActivityPub federation vs AT Proto [00:25:57] Jeremy: And so I don't think we've defined the term federation, but maybe you could explain what that is and if that is what this is. [00:26:07] Paul: We are so unsure. [00:26:10] Jeremy: Okay. [00:26:11] Paul: Yeah. This has jammed is up pretty bad. Um, because I think everybody can, everybody pretty strongly agrees that ActivityPub is federation, right? and ActivityPub kind of models itself pretty similarly to email in a way, like the metaphors they use is that there's inboxes and outboxes and, and every ActivityPub server they're standing up the full vertical stack. [00:26:37] They set up, the primary hosting, the views of the data that's happening there. the interface for the application, all of it, pretty traditional, like close service, but then they're kind of using the perimeter. they're making that permeable by sending, exchanging, essentially mailing records to each other, right? [00:26:54] That's their kind of logic of how that works. And that's pretty much in line with, I think, what most people think of with Federation. Whereas what we're doing isn't like that we've cut, instead of having a bunch of vertical stacks communicating horizontally with each other, we kind of sliced in the other direction. [00:27:09] We sliced horizontally into, this microservices mesh and have all the different, like a total mix and match of different microservices between different operators. Is that federation? I don't know. Right. we tried to invent a term, didn't really work, you know, At the moment, we just kind of don't worry about it that much, see what happens, see what the world sort of has to say to us about it. [00:27:36] and beyond that, I don't know. [00:27:42] Jeremy: I think people probably are thinking of something like, say, a Mastodon instance when you're, when you're talking about everything being included, The webpage where you view the posts, the Postgres database that's keeping the messages. [00:28:00] And that same instance it's responsible for basically everything. [00:28:06] Paul: mm-Hmm [00:28:06] Jeremy: And I believe what you're saying is that the difference with, the authenticated transfer protocol, is that the [00:28:15] Paul: AT Protocol, Yep. [00:28:17] Jeremy: And the difference there is that you've, at the protocol level, you've split it up into the data itself, which can be validated completely separately from other parts of the system. [00:28:31] You could have the JSON files on your hard drive and somebody else can have that same JSON file and they would know that who the user is and that these are real things that user posted. That's like a separate part. And then the relay component that looks for all these different repositories that has people's data, that can also be its own independent thing where its job is just to output events. [00:29:04] And that can exist just by itself. It doesn't need the application part, the, the user facing part, it can just be this event stream on itself. and that's the part where it sounds like you can make decisions on who to, um, collect data from. I guess you have to agree that somebody can connect to you and get the users from your data repositories. [00:29:32] And likewise, other people that run relays, they also have to agree to let you pull the users from theirs. [00:29:38] Paul: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. [00:29:41] Jeremy: And so I think the Mastodon example makes sense. And, but I wonder if the underlying ActivityPub protocol forces you to use it in that way, in like a whole full application that talks to another full application. [00:29:55] Or is it more like that's just how people tend to use it and it's not necessarily a characteristic of the protocol. [00:30:02] Paul: Yeah, that's a good question actually. so, you know, generally what I would say is pretty core to the protocol is the expectations about how the services interact with each other. So the mailbox metaphor that's used in ActivityPub, that design, if I reply to you, I'll update my, local database with what I did, and then I'll send a message over to your server saying, Hey, by the way, add this reply. [00:30:34] I did this. And that's how they find out about things. That's how they find out about activity outside of their network. that's the part that as long as you're doing ActivityPub, I suspect you're gonna see reliably happening. That's that, I can say for sure that's a pretty tight requirement. [00:30:50] That's ActivityPub. If you wanted to split it up the way we're talking about, you could, I don't know, I don't know if you necessarily would want to. Because I don't know. That's actually, I think I'd have to dig into their stack a little bit more to see how meaningful that would be. I do know that there's some talk of introducing a similar kind of an aggregation method into the ActivityPub world which I believe they're also calling a relay and to make things even more complicated. [00:31:23] And NOSTR has a concept of a relay. So these are three different protocols that are using this term. I think you could do essentially what a search engine does on any of these things. You could go crawling around for the data, pull them into a fire hose, and then, tap into that aggregation to produce, bigger views of the network. [00:31:41] So that principle can certainly apply anywhere. AT Protocol, I think it's a little bit, we, we focused in so hard from that on that from the get go, we focus really hard on making sure that this, the data is, signed at rest. That's why it's called the authenticated transfer protocol. And that's a nice advantage to have when you're running a relay like this because it means that you don't have to trust the relay. [00:32:08] Like generally speaking, when I look at results from Google, you know, I'm trusting pretty well that they're accurately reflecting what's on the website, which is fine. You know, there's, that's not actually a huge risk or anything. But whenever you're trying to build entire applications and you're using somebody else's relay, you could really run into things where they say like, oh, you know what Paul tweeted the other day, you know, I hate dogs. [00:32:28] They're like, no, I didn't. That's a lie, right? You just sneak in Little lies like that over a while, it becomes a problem. So having the signatures on the data is pretty important. You know, if you're gonna be trying to get people to cooperate, uh, you gotta manage the trust model. I know that ActivityPub does have mechanisms for signed records. Issuers with ActivityPub identifiers [00:32:44] Paul: I don't know how deep they go if they could fully replace that, that utility. and then Mastodon ActivityPub, they also use a different identifier system that they're actually taking a look at DIDs um, right now, I don't know what's gonna happen there. We're, we're totally on board to, you know, give any kind of insight that we got working on 'em. [00:33:06] But at, at the moment, they use I think it's WebFinger based identifiers they look like emails. So you got host names in there and those identifiers are being used in the data records. So you don't get that continuous identifier. They actually do have to do that hey, I moved update your records sort of thing. [00:33:28] And that causes it to, I mean, it works like decently well, but not as well as it could. They got us to the point where it moves your profile over and you update all the folks that were following you so they can update their follow records, but your posts, they're not coming right, because that's too far into that mesh of interlinking records. [00:33:48] There's just no chance. So that's kind of the upper limit on that, it's a different set of choices and trade-offs. You're always kind of asking like, how important is the migration? Does that work out? Anyway, now I'm just kind of digging into differences between the two here. Issues with an identifier that changes and updating old records [00:34:07] Jeremy: So you were saying that with ActivityPub, all of the instances need to be notified that you've changed your identifier but then all of the messages that they had already received. They don't point to the new identifier somehow. [00:34:24] Paul: Yeah. You run into basically just the practicalities of actual engineering with that is what happens, right? Because if you imagine you got a multimillion user social network. They got all their posts. Maybe the user has like, let's say a thousand posts and 10,000 likes. And that, activity can range back three years. [00:34:48] Let's say they changed their identifier, and now you need to change the identifier of all those records. If you're in a traditional system that's already a tall order, you're going back and rewriting a ton of indexes, Anytime somebody replied to you, they have these links to your posts, they're now, you've gotta update the identifiers on all of those things. [00:35:11] You could end up with a pretty significant explosion of rewrites that would have to occur. Now that's, that's tough. If you're in a centralized model. If you're in a decentralized one, it's pretty much impossible because you're now, when you notify all the other servers like, Hey, this, this changed. How successful are all of them at actually updating that, that those, those pointers, it's a good chance that there's things are gonna fall out of correctness. that's just a reality of it. And if, so, if you've got a, if you've got a mutable identifier, you're in trouble for migrations. So the DID is meant to keep it permanent and that ends up being the anchoring point. If you lose control of your DID well, that's it. Managing signing keys by server, paper key reset [00:35:52] Paul: Your, your account's done. We took some pretty traditional approaches to that, uh, where the signing keys get managed by your hosting server instead of like trying to, this may seem like really obvious, but if you're from the decentralization community, we spend a lot of time with blockchains, like, Hey, how do we have the users hold onto their keys? [00:36:15] You know, and the tooling on that is getting better for what it's worth. We're starting to see a lot better key pair management in like Apple's ecosystem and Google's ecosystem, but it's still in the range of like, nah, people lose their keys, you know? So having the servers manage those is important. [00:36:33] Then we have ways of exporting paper keys so that you could kind of adversarially migrate if you wanted to. That was in the early spec we wanted to make sure that this portability idea works, that you can always migrate your accounts so you can export a paper key that can override. [00:36:48] And that was how we figured that out. Like, okay, yeah, we don't have to have everything getting signed by keys that are on the user's devices. We just need these master backup keys that can say, you know what? I'm done with that host. No matter what they say, I'm overriding what they, what they think. and that's how we squared that one. [00:37:06] Jeremy: So it seems like one of the big differences with account migration is that with ActivityPub, when you move to another instance, you have to actually change your identifier. [00:37:20] And with the AT protocol you're actually not allowed to ever change that identifier. And maybe what you're changing is just you have say, some kind of a lookup, like you were saying, you could use a domain name to look that up, get a reference to your decentralized identifier, but your decentralized identifier it can never change. [00:37:47] Paul: It, it, it can't change. Yeah. And it shouldn't need to, you know what I mean? It's really a total disaster kind of situation if that happens. So, you know that it's designed to make sure that doesn't happen in the applications. We use these domain name handles to, to identify folks. And you can change those anytime you want because that's really just a user facing thing. [00:38:09] You know, then in practice what you see pretty often is that you may, if you change hosts, if you're using, we, we give some domains to folks, you know, 'cause like not everybody has their own domain. A lot of people do actually, to our surprise, people actually kind of enjoy doing that. But, a lot of folks are just using like paul.bsky.social as their handle. [00:38:29] And so if you migrated off of that, you probably lose that. Like your, so your handle's gonna change, but you're not losing the followers and stuff. 'cause the internal system isn't using paul.bsky.social, it's using that DID and that DID stays the same. Benefits of domain names, trust signal [00:38:42] Jeremy: Yeah. I thought that was interesting about using the domain names, because when you like you have a lot of users, everybody's got their own sub-domain. You could have however many millions of users. Does that become, does that become an issue at some point? [00:39:00] Paul: Well, it's a funny thing. I mean like the number of users, like that's not really a problem 'cause you run into the same kind of namespace crowding problem that any service is gonna have, right? Like if you just take the subdomain part of it, like the name Paul, like yeah, only, you only get to have one paul.bsky.social. [00:39:15] so that part of like, in terms of the number of users, that part's fine I guess. Uh, as fine as ever. where gets more interesting, of course is like, really kind of around the usability questions. For one, it's, it's not exactly the prettiest to always have that B sky.social in there. If we, if we thought we, if we had some kind of solution to that, we would use it. [00:39:35] But like the reality is that, you know, now we're, we've committed to the domain name approach and some folks, you know, they kind of like, ah, that's a little bit ugly. And we're like, yeah that's life. I guess the plus side though is that you can actually use like TLD the domain. It's like on pfrazee.com. [00:39:53] that starts to get more fun. it can actually act as a pretty good trust signal in certain scenarios. for instance, well-known domain names like nytimes.com, strong authentication right there, we don't even need a blue check for it. Uh, similarly the .gov, domain name space is tightly regulated. [00:40:14] So you actually get a really strong signal out of that. Senator Wyden is one of our users and so he's, I think it's wyden.senate.gov and same thing, strong, you know, strong identity signal right there. So that's actually a really nice upside. So that's like positives, negatives. [00:40:32] That trust signal only works so far. If somebody were to make pfrazee.net, then that can be a bit confusing. People may not be paying attention to .com vs .net, so it's not, I don't wanna give the impression that, ah, we've solved blue checks. It's a complicated and multifaceted situation, but, it's got some juice. [00:40:54] It's also kinda nice too, 'cause a lot of folks that are doing social, they're, they've got other stuff that they're trying to promote, you know? I'm pretty sure that, uh, nytimes would love it if you went to their website. And so tying it to their online presence so directly like that is a really nice kind of feature of it. [00:41:15] And tells a I think a good story about what we're trying to do with an open internet where, yeah, everybody has their space on the internet where they can do whatever they want on that. And that's, and then thethese social profiles, it's that presence showing up in a shared space. It's all kind of part of the same thing. [00:41:34] And that that feels like a nice kind of thing to be chasing, you know? And it also kind of speaks well to the naming worked out for us. We chose AT Protocol as a name. You know, we back acronymed our way into that one. 'cause it was a @ simple sort of thing. But like, it actually ended up really reflecting the biggest part of it, which is that it's about putting people's identities at the front, you know, and make kind of promoting everybody from a second class identity that's underneath Twitter or Facebook or something like that. [00:42:03] Up into. Nope, you're freestanding. You exist as a person independently. Which is what a lot of it's about. [00:42:12] Jeremy: Yeah, I think just in general, not necessarily just for bluesky, if people had more of an interest in getting their own domain, that would be pretty cool if people could tie more of that to something you basically own, right? [00:42:29] I mean, I guess you're leasing it from ICANN or whatever, but, [00:42:33] yeah, rather than everybody having an @Gmail, Outlook or whatever they could actually have something unique that they control more or less. [00:42:43] Paul: Yeah. And we, we actually have a little experimental service for registering domain names that we haven't integrated into the app yet because we just kind of wanted to test it out and, and kind of see what that appetite is for folks to register domain names way higher than you'd think we did that early on. [00:43:01] You know, it's funny when you're coming from decentralization is like an activist space, right? Like it's a group of people trying to change how this tech works. And sometimes you're trying to parse between what might come off as a fascination of technologists compared to what people actually care about. [00:43:20] And it varies, you know, the domain name thing to a surprising degree, folks really got into that. We saw people picking that up almost straight away. More so than certainly we ever predicted. And I think that's just 'cause I guess it speaks to something that people really get about the internet at this point. [00:43:39] Which is great. We did a couple of other things that are similar and we saw varied levels of adoption on them. We had similar kinds of user facing, opening up of the system with algorithms and with moderation. And those have both been pretty interesting in and of themselves. Custom feed algorithms [00:43:58] Paul: So with algorithms, what we did was we set that up so that anybody can create a new feed algorithm. And this was kind of one of the big things that you run into whenever you use the app. If you wanted to create a new kind of for you feed you can set up a service somewhere that's gonna tap into that fire hose, right? [00:44:18] And then all it needs to do is serve a JSON endpoint. That's just a list of URLs, but like, here's what should be in that feed. And then the bluesky app will pick that up and, and send that, hydrate in the content of the posts and show that to folks. I wanna say this is a bit of a misleading number and I'll explain why but I think there's about 35,000 of these feeds that have been created. [00:44:42] Now, the reason it's little misleading is that, I mean, not significantly, but it's not everybody went, sat down in their IDE and wrote these things. Essentially one of our users created, actually multiple of our users made little platforms for building these feeds, which is awesome. That's the kinda thing you wanna see because we haven't gotten around to it. [00:44:57] Our app still doesn't give you a way to make these things. But they did. And so lots of, you know, there it is. Cool. Like, one, one person made a kind of a combinatorial logic thing that's like visual almost like scratch, it's like, so if it has this hashtag and includes these users, but not those users, and you're kind of arranging these blocks and that constructs the feed and then probably publish it on your profile and then folks can use it, you know? [00:45:18] And um, so that has been I would say fairly successful. Except, we had one group of hackers do put in a real effort to make a replacement for you feed, like magic algorithmic feed kind of thing. And then they kind of kept up going for a while and then ended up giving up on it. Most of what we see are actually kind of weird niche use cases for feeds. [00:45:44] You get straightforward ones, like content oriented ones like a cat feed, politics feed, things like that. It's great, some of those are using ML detection, so like the cat feed is ML detection, so sometimes you get like a beaver in there, but most of the time it's a cat. And then we got some ones that are kind of a funny, like change in the dynamic of freshness. [00:46:05] So, uh, or or selection criteria, things that you wouldn't normally see. Um, but because they can do whatever they want, you know, they try it out. So like the quiet posters ended up being a pretty successful one. And that one just shows people you're following that don't post that often when they do just those folks. [00:46:21] It ended up being, I use that one all the time because yeah, like they get lost in the noise. So it's like a way to keep up with them. Custom moderation and labeling [00:46:29] Paul: The moderation one, that one's a a real interesting situation. What we did there essentially we wanted to make sure that the moderation system was capable of operating across different apps so that they can share their work, so to speak. [00:46:43] And so we created what we call labeling. And labeling is a metadata layer that exists over the network. Doesn't actually live in the normal data repositories. It uses a completely different synchronization because a lot of these labels are getting produced. It's just one of those things where the engineering characteristics of the labels is just too different from the rest of the system. [00:47:02] So we created a separate synchronization for this, and it's really kind of straightforward. It's, here's a URL and here's a string saying something like NSFW or Gore, or you know, whatever. then those get merged onto the records brought down by the client and then the client, you know, based on the user's preferences. [00:47:21] We'll put like warning screens up, hide it, stuff like that. So yeah, these label streams can then, you know, anybody that's running a moderation service can, you know, are publishing these things and so anybody can subscribe to 'em. And you get that kind of collaborative thing we're always trying to do with this. [00:47:34] And we had some users set up moderation services and so then as an end user you find it, it looks like a profile in the app and you subscribe to it and you configure it and off you go. That one has had probably the least amount of adoption throughout all of 'em. It's you know, moderation. [00:47:53] It's a sticky topic as you can imagine, challenging for folks. These moderation services, they do receive reports, you know, like whenever I'm reporting a post, I choose from all my moderation services who I wanna report this to. what has ended up happening more than being used to actually filter out like subjective stuff is more kind of like either algorithmic systems or what you might call informational. [00:48:21] So the algorithmic ones are like, one of the more popular ones is a thing that's looking for, posts from other social networks. Like this screenshot of a Reddit post or a Twitter post or a Facebook post. Because, which you're kinda like, why, you know, but the thing is some folks just get really tired of seeing screenshots from the other networks. [00:48:40] 'cause often it's like, look what this person said. Can you believe it? You know, it's like, ah. Okay, I've had enough. So one of our users aendra made a moderate service that just runs an ML that detects it, labels it, and then folks that are tired of it, they subscribe to it and they're just hide it, you know? [00:48:57] And so it's like a smart filter kind of thing that they're doing. you know, hypothetically you could do that for things like spiders, you know, like you've got arachniphobia, things like that. that's like a pretty straightforward, kind of automated way of doing it. Which takes a lot of the spice, you know, outta out of running moderation. [00:49:15] So that users have been like, yeah, yeah, okay, we can do that. [00:49:20] Those are user facing ways that we tried to surface the. Decentralized principle, right? And make take advantage of how this whole architecture can have this kind of a pluggability into it. Users can self host now [00:49:33] Paul: But then really at the end of the day, kind of the important core part of it is those pieces we were talking about before, the hosting, the relay and the, the applications themselves, having those be swappable in completely. so we tend to think of those as kind of ranges of infrastructure into application and then into particular client side stuff. [00:49:56] So a lot of folks right now, for instance, they're making their own clients to the application and those clients are able to do customizations, add features, things like that, as you might expect, [00:50:05] but most of them are not running their own backend. They're just using our backend. But at any point, it's right there for you. You know, you can go ahead and, and clone that software and start running the backend. If you wanted to run your own relay, you could go ahead and go all the way to that point. [00:50:19] You know, if you wanna do your own hosting, you can go ahead and do that. Um, it's all there. It's really just kind of a how much effort your project really wants to take. That's the kind of systemically important part. That's the part that makes sure that the overall mission of de monopolizing, social media online, that's where that really gets enforced. [00:50:40] Jeremy: And so someone has their own data repository with their own users and their own relay. they can request that your relay collect the information from their own data repositories. And that's, that's how these connections get made. [00:50:58] Paul: Yeah. And, and we have a fair number of those already. Fair number of, we call those the self hosters right? And we got I wanna say 75 self hoster going right now, which is, you know, love to see that be more, but it's, really the folks that if you're running a service, you probably would end up doing that. [00:51:20] But the folks that are just doing it for themselves, it's kind of the, the nerdiest of the nerds over there doing that. 'cause it doesn't end up showing itself in the, in the application at all. Right? It's totally abstracted away. So it, that, that one's really about like, uh, measure your paranoia kind of thing. [00:51:36] Or if you're just proud of the self-hosting or, or curious, you know, that that's kind of where that sits at the moment. AT Protocol beyond bluesky [00:51:42] Jeremy: We haven't really touched on the fact that there's this underlying protocol and everything we've been discussing has been centered around the bluesky social network where you run your own, instance of the relay and the data repositories with the purpose of talking to bluesky, but the protocol itself is also intended to be used for other uses, right? [00:52:06] Paul: Yeah. It's generic. The data types are set up in a way that anybody can build new data types in the system. there's a couple that have already begun, uh, front page, which is kind of a hacker news clone. There's Smoke Signals, which is a events app. There's Blue Cast, which is like a Twitter spaces, clubhouse kind of thing. [00:52:29] Those are the folks that are kind of willing to trudge into the bleeding edge and deal with some of the rough edges there for pretty I think, obvious reasons. A lot of our work gets focused in on making sure that the bluesky app and that use case is working correctly. [00:52:43] But we are starting to round the corner on getting to a full kind of how to make alternative applications state. If you go to the atproto.com, there's a kind of a introductory tutorial where that actually shows that whole stack and how it's done. So it's getting pretty close. There's a couple of still things that we wanna finish up. [00:53:04] jeremy so in a way you can almost think of it as having an eventually consistent data store on the network, You can make a traditional web application with a relational database, and the source of truth can actually be wherever that data repository is stored on the network. [00:53:24] paul Yeah, that's exactly, it is an eventually consistent system. That's exactly right. The source of truth is there, is their data repo. And that relational database that you might be using, I think the best way to think about it is like secondary indexes or computed indexes, right? They, reflect the source of truth. [00:53:43] Paul: This is getting kind of grandiose. I don't tend to poses in these terms, but it is almost like we're trying to have an OS layer at a protocol level. It's like having your own [00:53:54] Network wide database or network-wide file system, you know, these are the kind of facilities you expect out of a platform like an os And so the hope would be that this ends up getting that usage outside of just the initial social, uh, app, like what we're doing here. [00:54:12] If it doesn't end up working out that way, if this ends up, you know, good for the Twitter style use case, the other one's not so much, and that's fine too. You know, that's, that's our initial goal, but we, we wanted to make sure to build it in a way that like, yeah, there's evolve ability to, it keeps, it, keeps it, make sure that you're getting kinda the most utility you can out of it. Peer-to-peer and the difficulty of federated queries [00:54:30] Jeremy: Yeah, I can see some of the parallels to some of the decentralized stuff that I, I suppose people are still working on, but more on the peer-to-peer side, where the idea was that I can have a network host this data. but, and in this case it's a network of maybe larger providers where they could host a bunch of people's data versus just straight peer to peer where everybody has to have a piece of it. [00:54:57] And it seems like your angle there was really the scalability part. [00:55:02] Paul: It was the scalability part. And there's great work happening in peer-to-peer. There's a lot of advances on it that are still happening. I think really the limiter that you run into is running queries against aggregations of data. Because you can get the network, you know, BitTorrent sort of proved that you can do distributed open horizontal scaling of hosting. [00:55:29] You know, that basic idea of, hey, everybody's got a piece and you sync it from all these different places. We know you can do things like that. What nobody's been able to really get into a good place is running, queries across large data sets. In the model like that, there's been some research in what is, what's called federated queries, which is where you're sending a query to multiple different nodes and asking them to fulfill as much of it as they can and then collating the results back. But it didn't work that well. That's still kind of an open question and until that is in a place where it can like reliably work and at very large scales, you're just gonna need a big database somewhere that does give the properties that you need. You need these big indexes. And once we were pretty sure of that requirement, then from there you start asking, all right, what else about the system [00:56:29] Could we make easier if we just apply some more traditional techniques and merge that in with the peer-to-peer ideas? And so key hosting, that's an obvious one. You know, availability, let's just have a server. It's no big deal. But you're trying to, you're trying to make as much of them dumb as possible. [00:56:47] So that they have that easy replaceability. Moderation challenges [00:56:51] Jeremy: Earlier you were talking a a little bit about the moderation tools that people could build themselves. There was some process where people could label posts and then build their own software to determine what a feed should show per a person. [00:57:07] Paul: Mm-Hmm [00:57:07] Jeremy: But, but I think before that layer for the platform itself, there's a base level of moderation that has to happen. [00:57:19] Paul: yeah. [00:57:20] Jeremy: And I wonder if you could speak to, as the app has grown, how that's handled. [00:57:26] Paul: Yeah. the, you gotta take some requirements in moderation pretty seriously to start. And with decentralization. It sometimes that gets a little bit dropped. You need to have systems that can deal with questions about CSAM. So you got those big questions you gotta answer and then you got stuff that's more in the line of like, alright, what makes a good platform? [00:57:54] What kind of guarantees are we trying to give there? So just not legal concerns, but you know, good product experience concerns. That's something we're in the realm of like spam and and abusive behavior and things like that. And then you get into even more fine grain of like what is a person's subjective preference and how can they kind of make their thing better? [00:58:15] And so you get a kind of a telescoping level of concerns from the really big, the legal sort of concerns. And then the really small subjective preference kind of concerns. And that actually that telescoping maps really closely to the design of the system as well. Where the further you get up in the kind of the, in that legal concern territory, you're now in core infrastructure. [00:58:39] And then you go from infrastructure, which is the relay down into the application, which is kind of a platform and then down into the client. And that's where we're having those labelers apply. And each of them, as you kind of move closer to infrastructure, the importance of the decision gets bigger too. [00:58:56] So you're trying to do just legal concerns with the relay right? Stuff that you objectively can, everybody's in agreement like Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, no bigs don't include that. The reason is that at the relay level, you're anybody that's using your relay, they depend on the decisions you're making, that sort of selection you're doing, any filtering you're doing, they don't get a choice after that. [00:59:19] So you wanna try to keep that focus really on legal concerns and doing that well. so that applications that are downstream of it can, can make their choices. The applications themselves, you know, somebody can run a parallel I guess you could call it like a parallel platform, so we got bluesky doing the microblogging use case, other people can make an application doing the microblogging use case. So there's, there's choice that users can easily switch, easily enough switch between, it's still a big choice. [00:59:50] So we're operating that in many ways. Like any other app nowadays might do it. You've got policies, you know, for what's acceptable on the network. you're still trying to keep that to be as, you know, objective as possible, make it fair, things like that. You want folks to trust your T&S team. Uh, but from the kind of systemic decentralization question, you get to be a little bit more opinionated. [01:00:13] Down all the way into the client with that labeling system where you can, you know, this is individuals turning on and off preferences. You can be as opinionated as you want on that letter. And that's how we have basically approached this. And in a lot of ways, it really just comes down to, in the day to day, you're the moderation, the volume of moderation tasks is huge. [01:00:40] You don't actually have high stakes moderation decisions most of the time. Most of 'em are you know pretty straightforward. Shouldn't have done that. That's gotta go. You get a couple every once in a while that are a little spicier or a policy that's a little spicier. And it probably feels pretty common to end users, but that just speaks to how much moderation challenges how the volume of reports and problems that come through. [01:01:12] And we don't wanna make it so that the system is seized up, trying to decentralize itself. You know, it needs to be able to operate day to day. What you wanna make is, you know, back pressure, you know, uh, checks on that power so that if an application or a platform does really start to go down the wrong direction on moderation, then people can have this credible exit. [01:01:36] This way of saying, you know what, that's a problem. We're moving from here. And somebody else can come in with different policies that better fit people's people's expectations about what should be done at, at these levels. So yeah, it's not about taking away authority, it's about checking authority, you know, kind of a checks and balances mentality. [01:01:56] Jeremy: And high level, 'cause you saying how there's such a high volume of, of things that you know what it is, you'd know you wanna remove it, but there's just so much of it. So is there, do you have automated tools to label these things? Do you have a team of moderators? Do they have to understand all the different languages that are coming through your network? [01:02:20] Yes, yes, yes and yes. Yeah. You use every tool at your disposal to, to stay on top of it. cause you're trying to move as fast as you can, folks. The problems showing up, you know, the slower you are to respond to it, the, the more irritating it is to folks. Likewise, if you make a, a missed call, if somebody misunderstands what's happening, which believe me, is sometimes just figuring out what the heck is going on is hard. [01:02:52] Paul: People's beefs definitely surface up to the moderation misunderstanding or wrong application. Moderators make mistakes so you're trying to maintain a pretty quick turnaround on this stuff. That's tough. And you, especially when to move fast on some really upsetting content that can make its way through, again, illegal stuff, for instance, but more videos, stuff like that, you know, it's a real problem. [01:03:20] So yeah, you're gotta be using some automated systems as well. Clamping down on bot rings and spam. You know, you can imagine that's gotten a lot harder thanks to LLMs just doing text analysis by dumb statistics of what they're talking about that doesn't even work anymore. [01:03:41] 'cause the, the LLMs are capable of producing consistently varied responses while still achieving the same goal of plugging a online betting site of some kind, you know? So we do use kind of dumb heuristic systems for when it works, but boy, that won't work for much longer. [01:04:03] And we've already got cases where it's, oh boy, so the moderation's in a dynamic place to say the least right now with, with LLMs coming in, it was tough before and

Join us for a jam-packed visit to Frodsham Woods, Cheshire, where 80 volunteers were planting thousands of trees to help transform a former golf course into a fantastic new space for wildlife and people. We visit the neighbouring ancient woodland and admire hilltop views with site manager Neil and chat to Tim, supervisor of this army of tree planters, about how the new wood will develop. We also meet Esther, lead designer of the project, hear from comms guru Paul about the Trust's #plantmoretrees climate campaign, and speak to the volunteers about what the day means to them. Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, today's podcast is a bit of an unusual one because I'm off to an abandoned golf course in Cheshire, overlooking Liverpool. Not far away, in fact. And the vision is to create this once golf course into a thriving mosaic of habitats, including lush broadleaved woodland, grassland meadows and wooded glades dotted with wildflowers. Throughout the site, they're creating a network of grassy paths so people can walk through them and get far-reaching views of the Welsh borders, the western Pennines and the Bowland Fells, along with, of course, Liverpool and the Mersey Estuary. And very excitingly, the man actually who's running all the tree planting there is also in a band, and it's his music and his band's music you can hear in the background. More about that a little later. It's called Frodsham Woods, and it's near the Frodsham train station. Guess where? In Frodsham. Well, today we are starting, I'm starting sitting down with Neil Oxley, who's the site manager here. Hi Neil. Neil: Good morning, Adam. Adam: Good morning. So, just explain where we are because we are, well, I'm not gonna take away your thunder. Explain. It's an unusual location. Neil: So, we're sat on a bench overlooking the River Mersey and Liverpool. We're on the old golf course that was closed about three years ago. Adam: Yeah, well that's what I think is unusual – sitting on a golf course. I gotta take, it doesn't look like a golf course. They, the greenkeeper would have had a heart attack seeing the state of this place. But what's amazing is, well, I'm looking over a forest of planted trees. I mean, just within 10 yards, probably a couple of hundred of them, just been planted. So, this has got to be unusual. Take buying a golf course, turning it into a forest? Neil: It is, yeah. I think it's probably the first golf course that the Woodland Trust has taken on and it's just a great opportunity, though, that when it became available, it's adjoining some of our existing woodlands, including ancient woodland. And it's given us an opportunity to plant lots of trees and work with local people and engage the community in doing something good for the climate. Adam: And we're sitting down, looking over what might be, I don't know. Is that a bunker? Do you think that's a bunker? Neil: It is, yep. So, there there's probably about 40 bunkers on the golf course and we've kept them all, so some of those old features are still here. Adam: And I saw one, some gorse growing, just naturally growing in the bunker there. Neil: There is. Just in the two or three years since it stopped being maintained. There's gorse, there's silver birch, there's all sorts of trees and plants that are now appearing. Adam: I love the gorse. It's bright. It comes out early. Bright yellow. Real splash of colour in early spring. It's really. Neil: It is, yeah, it's lovely and colourful. Adam: And we're looking over a range of wind turbines. And is that the Mersey ahead? Neil: That is, that's the River Mersey. Adam: Although there's not much river, it looks, it looks like it's out. It's mainly mud. Neil: It's probably low tide at the moment. Yeah, and Liverpool just beyond the other side. Adam: Very nice. So, you're going to be my main guide today. We've got lots of people to meet, I know. Alright. Brilliant. So, explain to me the plan for the day. Neil: So, we're gonna have a walk round and look at some of the tree planting that we've already done here. We've got some groups of corporate volunteers and Woodland Trust staff here today also who are planting trees. So, we'll go and see them later on. But I thought maybe to start off with we could go and visit some of the ancient woodland that borders the site and show you sort of why it's important that we're doing what we're doing today. Adam: Brilliant. I'm of an age where sitting down is quite nice, but that's not going to get, that's not gonna get nothing made, is it? It's alright. We better get up and you lead on. Neil: OK, let's go. This lady, by the way, coming with the pug. She's up here all the time. She's really lovely, friendly, always talks to me and Paul. And we've already said hello to her, but he... Adam: Oh, this dog wants a lot of attention. Neil: He loves that. He loves that, yeah. Adam: We'll let the rest of the team pet the dog. You know, you've paused here for a special reason. Why? Neil: Yeah. So, this area, we're on the edge of the ancient woodland now and the part of the site in front of us is going to be left for what's called natural regeneration to develop. So, that will be where trees can self-seed and set and grow naturally. So, we're not actually planting any trees in this area in front of us. And you can see there's some silver birch trees there that probably self-seeded five or 10 years ago on the edge of the golf course. And they're growing quite well already. Adam: So, and what's the advantage of that? There's a big debate about rewilding and all of that. So, why has that become an important issue? Neil: It is, I mean to different people it can mean slightly different things as well. But basically it's leaving the land to develop and rewild itself, you know, for nature to colonise it. It's a slower process. Adam: So, because if you're planting them yourself, you're planting all the trees at the same time. They're all the same age, so they get wiped out. Everything gets wiped out. Neil: Potentially yes. You could lose a lot more. Adam: Actually, I'm surprised those are natural regeneration because they've, it's very regimented. Those silver birch, they've all come up in exactly the same space, very close together. It looks like there's been some thought behind that. Neil: It does. It does and again nature can do things very similar to how people plant trees. You know, you often can end up with them very densely packed, more densely packed than we're planting them, actually. Adam: Yeah, OK. Well, we're still surrounded by these young, young trees. So, you lead on. Where are we heading off to? Neil: So, we're just walking into, towards the ancient woodland area. So, this this is called Woodhouse Hill and it's mostly oak and some silver birch, some holly growing in here, plus a few other species as well. Adam: And wonderfully of you, you've taken me to the muddiest bit of land there is. Are we going through this? Neil: This, well, we can do. It's unfortunately because of the winter we've had, some of the paths are very wet and muddy around here now. Adam: So, I have my walking boots on. You squelch ahead and I'll squelch behind you. Neil: OK. We'll carry on then. Adam: So, we're heading up, give us a better view of the Mersey, a better view of Liverpool. Neil: That's right. Just around the corner, there's a really good viewpoint where the view will open up and a sunny day like today get quite good views. Adam: And is it used by the locals a lot? I mean, it's relatively new then. I mean, presumably a lot of locals don't know about it. Neil: Well, I mean since, the golf course was closed down during the pandemic, and at the time the owner allowed the public to come and walk on the site. So, suddenly from people being not allowed to use it unless they were playing golf, local people were allowed to come and walk the dogs or just walk themselves around with the family. So, people did get to know the site and start using it, but it also borders some existing woodlands with footpaths, which is where we are now. So, these existing woodlands were already well-used. Adam: Right. And what's the reaction of the locals been to the development here? Neil: Very positive. Yeah. I mean obviously there's always a fear when a piece of land is up for sale that it might go for some sort of development, housing or be sold to a private landowner who fences it off and stops people using it. So, people have been, yeah, really positive, really supportive. The consultation that we did before we started anything was all very much in favour of creating woodland and allowing public access. Adam: I think we're coming up to a viewpoint here where there's a bench. Neil: There is, we should have another sit down. Adam: And it's very steep here. You wouldn't want to be falling off that, but this is a beautiful view. Neil: Yeah. The weather today is just great for the view. Adam: We've been blessed. Look at this. And then you look across a sort of flat valley floor with some wind turbines, which some don't like but I always think they're really majestic. And beyond the wind turbines, the Mersey, where the tide is out. And beyond that, that's Liverpool. And is that Liverpool Cathedral? The grey building in the sort of middle there. Neil: That's the main Anglican cathedral, and then the Catholic cathedral is just off to the right and beyond in the far distance is North Wales, so that low line of hills you can see is just within North Wales. Adam: Oh, that's, those hills over there, beyond the chimneys, that's Wales. Neil: Beyond the chimneys, yeah. Adam: And some other lovely gorse and, whoops don't fall over, I thought it was going to be me that would be falling over, not the site manager. Neil: Mind the rock. Adam: Ice and sea. So, we've come to the sign. ‘The view from Woodhouse Hill holds clues to the distant past, the Mersey Basin and Cheshire's sandstone hills were both shaped by advancing ice sheets during the last Ice Age.' Do you know what? I wanted to say that because I remember from O-level geography, I think a flat-bottomed valley is a glacier-made valley. But I was, I didn't want to appear idiotic, so I didn't say that and I should have had the courage of my convictions. So, this is an ice-formed landscape. Neil: It is. It is. I understand that the ice sheets came down to this part of the north of England back in the Ice Age. And there's some interesting features that are found here called glacial erratics. Adam: Right. Neil: Which is rocks from other parts of the north of England and Scotland that were brought down on the ice sheets. And then when the ice sheets melted, those rocks were left behind. But they're from a different geological area. Adam: Right. Amazing. Neil: So, around here it's sandstone. The erratics are all kind of volcanic rocks. Adam: Brought down from the north, from Scotland. Neil: Lake District and Scotland. That's right. Adam: Beautiful. We were with a few other people. Neil: I think they couldn't be bothered to come through the mud, could they? Yeah. Adam: We seem to have lost them. OK, alright. Well, maybe we'll have to, we've lost our team, our support team. Neil: We'll head back, but yeah, no, this was the view I thought we'd come to. Yeah, because it is a nice view. Adam: Well, I'll tell you what. Let me take a photo of you, for the Woodland Trust social media. Neil: Thought you were gonna say falling over the rock again. No, no, I'll try not to. Adam: Yeah, let's not do that. Yeah, so to explain, you're running me across the field for some... Neil: Walking fast. Adam: Well, for you walking fast. I've got short legs. Why? Neil: Well, we've walked over now to where we've got the people who are helping plant trees today with us. So, we've got a mix of corporate volunteers, Woodland Trust staff and some of our volunteers here to help us and we're gonna go over and meet Tim Kerwin, who's in charge of the tree planting and supervising the tree planting with us today. Adam: Oh right, so these are, this is his army of tree planters. Neil: It is, yes. Tim keeps things in check and makes sure they're doing the right thing. Adam: OK. I mean, let's just look, there's scores of people I've no idea of who Tim is. Neil: Tim? Tim, can we get your attention for a few minutes? Tim: Yes. Adam: Hi, nice to see you, Tim. Tim: I've seen you on telly. Adam: Have you? Adam: Well, Tim, as well as being in charge of everyone planting the trees today is also the sax player in a band. And of course we have to talk about that first and he very kindly gave me one of his original tracks, which is what you can hear right now. A first for the podcast. *song plays* Tim: You know, you know what? We probably do about eight gigs a year, right? But we're trying to find venues where people like jazz. We don't want to, you know, we don't want to do Oasis. That's not what we're about. There's plenty of bands like that. We play music for ourselves, and if people turn up and appreciate it, those are the people we want. I'll play for one person. Adam: You know, I was in a wood a few years ago and, can't remember where it was, and we just came across a violinist, just playing to herself. And it was just like can I record it? And it's like, just playing amongst the trees, and I thought it was really lovely. Tim: You know what? I would, I would do the same. I mean, the places I like to play, like churches are fantastic because of the acoustics. Adam: So, you might play that under this chat and what's the name of the band? Tim: The Kraken. Adam: The Kraken? Tim: Yeah. Adam: OK. Alright, The Kraken *laughs* So, all of which is a bit of a divergence. Tim: I know, sorry *laughs* Adam: So, I'm told you're in charge of this army of tree planters you can see over here. Three men having their sandwich break there. So, you've been working them hard. Tim: We have been working them hard, indeed. Adam: So, just explain to me a little bit about what's going on here. Tim: So, today we can almost see the finishing line for our 30,000 trees. So, this morning we've actually planted just shy of 2,000 trees with the group that we've had, of which there's about 80 people. Adam: That's a lot of trees. People always talk about how long does it take to plant a tree? It's not that big a thing is it? Tim: No, but what we're keen about is it's not about necessarily speed, it's about accuracy. We want quality. So, what we're asking people to do is plant each tree really well. So, today I have to say the standard of planting has been amazing. From the first to the last, I haven't found one that I'm not happy with. Adam: So, explain to me, and we're standing by a tree that's just been planted. It looks like they've scraped a bit of the grass away. So, explain to me, how should you plant a tree and what goes wrong? Tim: OK, so what we've done here, we took the grass off before the guys came, so that's called scriefing. So, the purpose of that is the tree needs water. And this grass also needs water. So, we take that grass away, and the competition's gone away for the tree. So, it won't be forever, because within two years, that grass will have grown around that tree. But those first two years are quite critical. So, if we can get the new roots from, so those trees and little plugs, new roots which are going to come out in the next couple of weeks because the soil's warming up. I mean, the air's warming up, but the soil's warming up. Those will send out shoots. They're already starting to come in to leaf, which is why the urgency to get these trees in now. They will take in the water around them and then keep on spreading with that root system. Enough root system will go out there and it will then not be competing with the grass because in fact the tree will be competing with the grass and actually taking over. So, eventually that grass will probably die because it will be shaded out in the future. Adam: And talking about shade, I'm surprised how closely planted these are, about five foot apart or thereabouts. If this was a forest in 20 years', 30 years' time, it's exceptionally dense. Or are you expecting a lot of them to fail? Tim: So, imagine you've got an oak tree and that throws down 40,000 acorns in usually every four years. So, it doubles its weight above ground. Adam: Sorry, 40,000? Tim: 40,000. A mature oak, yeah. Adam: It's worth pausing on that *laughs* A mature oak drops 40,000 acorns a year? Tim: Every four years, roughly. Adam: Because it doesn't do it every year, do they? Tim: No. So, it has what they call a mast year, which is the year when everything's come together. It's usually based on the previous weather, weather conditions. So, that doubles the weight of the tree above ground, that throws all those acorns. Now you imagine they're gonna be a couple of centimetres apart on the ground. They're not all going to make it. What they're hoping is that something will take those away. So, a jay or a squirrel, they'll move those acorns away. Not all of them will get eaten. In fact, jays let the acorn germinate, and then they eat the remains. So, they wait to see where the oak tree comes up and then they come back and eat the remains of the cotyledon. So, you imagine if all those were going to germinate, there'd be a mass rush, and what they're waiting for is for the parent plant to die. And if that falls over, then they can all shoot up, but they're not all going to survive. So maybe only one, maybe two will survive out of those 40,000 if they're close to the tree. Now, what we're doing here is, imagine there's the parent plant, the parent plant's not here. We've already spaced these out by this distance already. So, we've given them a better chance. So, they can now flourish. In time, so within sort of 10 to 12 years, we're going to start to be sending this out. So, you won't see this line. There are other parts on this site, 23 years old, and we've done a lot of filling through that. You wouldn't know it's been planted by, in a plantation. Adam: So, what would you, what's the failure rate? What's a good failure rate to stay with? Tim: It can really, really vary. I have to say that the soil here is tremendous. It's very rich. I'd be very surprised if we have a high failure rate. It could be 95% take. Adam: So, that's really interesting. And what are you planting then? I've seen some oak. I've seen some silver birch. What are you planting? Tim: So, Cheshire is all about oak and birch. So, 25% of these trees, so 7,500 are oak. And then 10% are silver birch. So that's 3,000. And then there's another 18 species that are all native to the UK that we're planting in here. So, things like rowan, holly, Scots pine and then we've got hazel, some large areas of hazel on this site that we've put in and then we've got hawthorn, blackthorn, couple of types of cherry, and then some interesting ones as well. So, we're putting some elm in and, specifically for a butterfly. So, there's a butterfly called white letter hairstreak. And the caterpillar feeds on the leaves of that tree. So, we've got those in Cheshire, but we're trying to expand it. And we've been working with the Butterfly Conservation group to get it right. So, they've given us some advice. Adam: I thought elm was a real problem with the Dutch elm disease? Tim: It still is. It still is. Adam: There was some talk that maybe some had found some natural resistance to Dutch elm disease. Tim: There are some resistant elm. And so, the plantings that we've done on here are what's classed as wych elm. It will still get Dutch elm disease, but it can last up to 16 years. And then there's always the opportunity to replant so we can get elm established. Then we can carry on spreading that through the site, so it's a starting point for that species we have. So again, we're trying to increase the biodiversity of the site by having specific trees for specific species. So, it's exciting. I mean, a lot's been lost and it won't become a beautiful wildflower meadow, although we are going to be doing some wildflower planting. We've already bought the seed. And in the next couple of weeks as it gets a little bit drier and a little bit warm, we're going to be, we're going to be sowing that in and that will come through the spring and summer. So, we've got lots to happen here as well. Adam: Oh brilliant. Well, it's so nice to see it at an early stage. I'll come back in a couple of years. Tim: It's probably one of the most exciting projects, tree wise, in Cheshire in a long time, because I've been doing this for a long, long time and these opportunities don't come up. So, for this to happen. And for the size of it as well. I mean, you're talking about a huge area of woodland now, over 180 acres. So, the second biggest area of woodland in Cheshire, so it's amazing. It truly is amazing. Adam: Well, I'm walking away. In fact, all tree planting has stopped for lunch. What is the time? Yeah, it's 12:45. So, everyone has stopped for sandwiches and teas, and they're spreading branches of some trees. And while they're doing that, two people are still working. That's me. And Paul? Hi. Paul: Hi. Adam: So, just explain to me what you do, Paul? Paul: I work as the comms and engagement manager for the north of England, so this is one of the best tree planting games we have had in a long time. Adam: And the people we've got here today, they're just locals? They from any particular groups? Paul: No, the Woodland Trust staff as part of our climate campaign now get a day to come out and we've got various corporate volunteering groups out also planters. We've got about 80 people out planting today. Adam: Well, that's amazing and we've just paused by this gorse bush. I'm rather partial to the gorse, so we'll take some shelter there. So, you talked about that this is part of a bigger campaign. What is that campaign? Paul: It's our climate campaign. And very simple hashtag plant more trees. So, trees are one, probably one of the best things we've got in the battle against climate change to help. And they have the added benefit that also they're good for biodiversity as well. So, twin track approach if you plant a tree. Obviously they're not the solution to everything, but we're hoping, as the Woodland Trust just to get more people planting trees. Adam: What is the target then? The sort of tree planting target you have? Paul: Well we have a target to get 50 million trees planted by 2030. Across all of the UK, so quite, quite a number. Adam: 50 million trees by 2030, so six years? Paul: Yeah, yeah. And we've, I think we've planted 6 million trees, 2023, yeah. Adam: Why is everyone taking a break? They've got millions to get in. That's quite an ambitious thing to get done, isn't it? Paul: Yeah. And we need, we need to plant billions of trees longer term. So, it's really important we get everyone planting trees, but it's all that message as well, right tree in the right place, and get trees planted where they're needed. Adam: And this is an unusual project, not least cause it's on an old golf course, which I've never heard of before. Has it attracted much interest? Is there a lot of engagement from the media and the public? Paul: Yeah, this site has had a remarkable amount of attention from the press. It started with local radio, then regional TV and then we've had things like Sky News Climate Show out here and then even international press coverage looking at rewilding of golf courses. CNN covered it alongside international golf courses and here in the UK, Frodsham. So, it's been amazing how it's captured everyone's imagination and it's been such a really positive good news story. It's a site that's a key site within the Northern Forest. So, the Northern Forest is another project that I'm involved with in the north of England, but. Adam: Did you say a little project? *laughs* Paul: Another, another project. Adam: Oh sorry. I was gonna say, a massive project. Paul: That's a massive project, which is again stretching, looking to plant 50 million trees from Liverpool to Hull and we're working with the Community Forests in each area, in this case the Mersey Forest and again just promoting grants and support to landowners and communities to get more, more trees planted and to help acquire land for tree planting and give the grants for tree planting. Adam: It must give you a warm feeling that your communications are actually being so well received that there is, it's not just you pushing out a message, that people want to hear this message. Paul: Yeah, it's really, really good to not have a negative message. Generally it's a really, really positive message that people wanted to hear because it's great for the community. They're getting some amazing green space with stunning views of the Mersey on the doorstep. It's interesting story about how we're changing from a golf course to a woodland site. We've got the ancient woodland, got natural regeneration. And just the fact that everyone's smiling, everyone's really happy and just so pleased that they're playing their small part in helping us create this new woodland site. Just great to be part of that, that positive good news story. Adam: Well, I'm going over to a group of people who have been busy planting all day but are now on their lunch break, just to bother them and ask them how their day has been and why they got involved in this. Adam: OK, well, you can, first of all, you can just shout out so, well we've, you all are hard at work I hear, but I've seen very little evidence of it cause everyone's sat down for lunch now. Have you all had a good day? Everyone: Yes. Adam: That would have been awful had they said no. Anyway, they all had a good day. So, I mean, it's lovely that you're out. You're all out here doing, I mean, very serious work. You've all got smiles on your face and everything. But this is important. I wonder why anyone's getting involved, what it means to you. Anyone got a view or get a microphone to you? Adam: So, what's your name? Volunteer 1: Rodon. Adam: Rodon. So, why are you here? Rodon: Well, nature, wildlife, planting, and I know the area quite well, so it's nice to see being developed in a sustainable way and being something for nature. It's a great place to come and visit, not far from the sandstone trail. I visit lots of Woodland Trust sites. I live in Warrington so it's sort of down the road, and it's, as I say, with the old wood over there that's quite an adventurous path. It's got lots of like sandstone sort of steps and little caves, and it's on the side of a cliff. So, this has kind of extended that over here as well. Adam: It would be a lovely thing to return to in a few years. Rodon: Well, it's a nice place now to be honest. Adam: Brilliant. Volunteer 2: My name is David Mays. I'm also from the from the town of Warrington as well. I'm an MSC and BSc student from local Hope University. I've finished both of them now, thankfully. I'm trying to get a job in the ecological management sector and I feel doing this working with people like Tim and Neil will help me massively get a, you know, it looks good on my CV. Most importantly, I really enjoy being out here and getting to know how the areas of ecological development, particularly in the woodland industry, is developing over the past few years and what are the plans for the future and what they hope to achieve in the long term and short term. Adam: That's very good. So, it's also very innovative of you putting out your CV live on air there. Good. Hopefully someone needing a job, with a job to offer will contact us. Good luck with that. So, oh yeah, we've come under another lovely tree. I mean it looks set. I was just saying to Kerry, it's so beautiful here. It looks like we've set this shot up. Really, you know? But here you are with your spades behind you taking a break from the trunk. So, first of all, have you, has it been a good day? Volunteer 3: Yeah. Yeah, it has been. It's been dry. Adam: It's been dry. OK. Alright. Well, let's get, so, the best thing about today is that it was dry. Volunteer 3: It's one of the positive points. Definitely. Yeah, after the trees. Adam: Yeah, with experience. So, why did you want to come out? What made you want to be part of this? Volunteer 3: Well, I think it's because we are having a bit of a push with the climate change agenda at the moment, so it's, working for the Woodland Trust it's just a nice opportunity to get away from the sort of the day job for me and get out into the field and actually do something practical and help towards that. Adam: Yeah. Did, I mean, has it been very physical for you today, has it? Volunteer 3: It's not been too bad, actually. It's been fine. Yeah. No, it's been OK. Ask me tomorrow, but yeah *laughs* Adam: Have you done this sort of stuff before? Volunteer 3: No, this is my first, this is my first planting day with the Trust. Adam: Yeah, and your last? Volunteer 3: No, no, I'll definitely no, it hasn't put me off. We'll definitely, definitely be back out again when I get the opportunity. It's been great. Adam: So, go on. Tell me what's all been like for you today? Volunteer 4: It's been really good. Yeah. I just can't believe we've covered so much ground in so little time, really. Seems we've only been here a few hours and because it's, I've been quite remote working from home, so it's quite nice kind of seeing some people I've met on screen, so it's nice to now, yeah, meet people in the real world and yeah, give back. I've never, I've not done anything like this before. Adam: So yeah, so is this your first time planting trees? Volunteer 5: It's not my first time planting trees, but it's my first time planting with the Trust. I was planting trees in my garden on the weekend, so I've done my back in. So, I've not quite got the planting rate of everyone else today I don't think, but you know, as the other guys were saying, we work office jobs really rather than on the front line of the Trust. So, it is good to get our hands dirty and to get involved with what we're supposed to be all about and contribute to our climate change campaign. So, hashtag plant more trees. Adam: Yeah. There we are, on message as well. Volunteer 5: I work in the brand team *laughs* Adam: There we are. There we are. Thank you. That's excellent. Adam: Now, really I should have started with this because we're nearing the end of my morning in the forest. But I've come to meet Esther, who's really one of the big brains behind the planting scheme. I know a bit modest about that, but tell me a little bit about what your involvement has been with this project. Esther: I've been a lead designer on this project, so I've been putting together the planting plans and lots of maps and really working with Neil, he's the site manager, to make sure that we make this the best scheme that we can make it. We've included coppice coupes for biodiversity and. Adam: Right, what's a coppice coupe? Esther: A coppice coupe is just an area of where you're planning to coppice. So, cut a tree down to its very base and then it grows back up as shoots. So, it only works with a few species and the species that we've chosen is hazel. So, those areas are 100% hazel. And it's great for biodiversity because you sort of go in a rotational like a 10-year cycle or something like that and you cut back say 10% of your trees in that year and then you get a lot of light to the ground and then you get hopefully a lot of floristic diversity coming through. Adam: And so, is that a job that, it sounds terrible the way I'm saying it – is that a job? Is it a job that you sit down and you go, you have a piece of paper or computer and you go, this is where we're, how we're gonna design the forest. We're gonna put ash over there. We're gonna put oak over there. Is that what you do? Esther: Yeah. Yeah. So, we use something called GIS. So, geographical information systems which basically let you draw shapes on a map and then you can colour code it and basically make a really coherent design of something to tell people, you know, what you're trying to achieve. What's gonna go where. Adam: And it's not every, it's not like building an extension to a house where you go well, there's probably thousands and going on all the time. There can't be that many forests being planted each day, so this must be a significant thing in your career I would have thought. Esther: Oh yeah, this is my first woodland creation scheme that I've seen from pretty much the start to the finish, so I've been working on it for 18 months and then an awful lot of hours gone into it. It's been really enjoyable and it's just a wonderful, wonderful to see it coming together. And yeah, and we're nearly finished now, so. Adam: And I know people often think, oh well, I'll come back in 100 years' time and you know, my great grandchildren might see these trees. But actually, within your career, you will see a forest here won't you. Esther: Yeah. So, I think within 10 years it will look like a woodland. It's had, this site has a history of agriculture, so it should in theory have a lot of nutrients in the soil. So, the trees should grow really well. So yeah, I would say within 10 to 15 years, it should look like fully fledged woodland, if not a bit young, but yeah. Adam: And are you optimistic about really the change that you and your colleagues can make? Cause there's a lot of pessimism around. What's your view? Esther: I think it's a really exciting time to be working in the environment sector and there's a lot of enthusiasm for making big changes in our lives and big changes in our landscape. I think there's a lot of hope to be had. And yeah, just seeing like the amount of enthusiasm on a planting day like this really fills me with a great deal of hope, yeah. Adam: Yeah. Have you planted any trees yourself? Esther: I have, yeah. Adam: How many of these have been yours, you reckon? Esther: We have 15, probably not that many *laughs* Adam: Oh, that's not bad. I thought you were gonna be like The Queen. I planted one. There was a round of applause and I went home *laughs* Esther: No, I put a lot of guards on, but yeah, not planting that many trees myself. Adam: Fantastic. Well, it's been a great day for me. Our half day out here and I'll definitely return. It's amazing, amazing, positive place. Esther: Wonderful, yeah. Adam: And the sun has shone on us. Metaphorical smile from the sun. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Esther: Thank you so much. *song plays* Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you, you can do so by going to The Woodland Trust website which is www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Andy: Hello, all you listeners out there in podcast land. I hope everybody's having an amazing day after Thanksgiving. This episode is going out to the world on Friday, which is the day after Thanksgiving. So I hope everybody had an awesome, relaxing end of season, sort of speak in our world and a season day after Thanksgiving. And this is, we're coming into a big week next week, which is the annual irrigation conference called the IA show. Technically it would be the irrigation association annual conference and at the conference, I will be. Not at a booth or anything formal, but demoing some technology that I've been working on for this last year, which is a long range wireless soil moisture sensor. And if you are able to join us Tuesday evening, which is the night before the show, I will have plenty of sample. And for those interested to join the beta group, some beta devices. And I thought. What better way to prep for next week than to have another discussion with my good friend, Paul Bassett, who has been helping to advise on the development of the sensor [00:02:00] and, uh, the entire, uh, let's call it a project, the entire project. So Paul, welcome back to the podcast. Oh, Paul: thanks for having me, Andy. And I can't wait to be one of the first beta users and testers of of this technology. It's been something that our industry's been needing for. Since its inception. So this is going to be one of those technologies that hopefully everyone's going to embrace because it's now going to have the soil moisture sensing, right? In the palm of your hands. Andy: That's good in the palm of your hand. When, while he's saying Paul saying that I have one in the palm of my hand and what's pretty awesome too, is I would say you are one of our industry's beta testers. You know, there's a probably just a handful, maybe there's more than a handful, but there's a few people that have always had a liking to test new products and seek out new products in just that early adopter sort of way. And you are definitely one of them. And this is not your first time, this will not be your first time beta testing soil moisture sensors because you've actually been testing them for, you know, 20 years at this point. At least Paul: 20 years for sure. And I remember when, when baseline. First came out with their control system and their soil moisture sensors. And I was ecstatic back then and still to this day on how the technology works. And I really like the taking the wired soil moisture sensor readings and converting it over to now a wireless reading, which is just phenomenal being able to transmit. Out of the ground, what the soil moisture is without a Andy: wire and to be able to try to connect the dots, so to speak, in terms of hand. No, it just rained. Let me quickly check my app and [00:04:00] see what that did to the soil profile, right? Or, you know, we adjusted some run times. I had the crew adjust some run times. Let me take a look at the app and see what that did to the moisture profile. I think that most of the time when we set a schedule on a controller, start time, run time, day of the week, it's an educated guess, right, using whatever tools we have ability at that moment in order for us to determine what the run time should be to apply the right amount of water. But there is never been really a tool, I shouldn't say never, there are some, but there's not a universally available tool that anyone could use to then see the results of. What did that adjustment from 30 minutes to 45 minutes look like, or from one hour to 30 minutes? What is it actually doing to the soil? There isn't a universal tool available that anyone can use easily and affordable to start learning. Paul: And I like what, what you've done by taking on this particular project and Finding the latest technology that's available and using the, that technology and intertwining it with soil moisture sensors, specifically, most folks aren't really aware of, you know, how this frequency transmits and how it was received and how it gets moved from the device into the palm of your hand. Why don't you tell us how that Andy: works? Yeah, there's a stack. We won't go right now all into all the details, but there's a stack of of different technologies that when you stack it together, the data basically passes through the stack and it is delivered to you in the web browser on the phone or the computer. So the device pings through a gateway, either private or public. Then it goes up to a network server and the network server passes it to an application server. Then the application server is what pushes it to the U. I. So one data point, one point of moisture has to pass through all [00:06:00] those little channels along the way in order for the user to then see it on their device. And that's been, uh, I wouldn't say it's a challenge, but it makes what seems, it makes what seems so simple, actually quite technical under the hood. It is Paul: very technical under the hood, Andy, for sure. And the way you describe it. Andy: Yeah, and you gotta sort of learn each of those, each of those, you have to learn each of those, um, pieces of technology. Because it's not just one of them. And so one of the things that I've done is, you know, gathered a group of people together, i. e. you as one of the advisors and, uh, and Nate as as an engineer, uh, and then a whole slew of other people that are sort of experts in their line of work. So it might be it's the network server developer, or it's the application server developer, or it's the hardware engineer, or it's the application developer. Um, you know, designer of the actual, uh, capsule, if you will, the hexagon. So there's kind of had to have been a T there's a whole team that's sort of working on this project, uh, to move data from the ground all the way up to the cloud or right into the palm of your hand. And what I think is pretty awesome. Is that where we, where we've landed started from an idea, you know, that you and I shared back in the spring where we kind of said, man, what would it, if sole moisture sensors were easy, what would that look like? And that's where we came up with this, you know, scan it, drop it, connect it. You know, you don't have to call anyone. You don't have to activate anything. You can just. Scan it, drop it and connect it. And, you know, so what people will, we'll see is that that is the trying to make it easy for the everyday person has been our goal and both affordable, [00:08:00] affordable and easy for the everyday person. So you can just. Grab one out of your truck, scan it, drop it, add it to your account, and you're off and running. Paul: Andy, it's phenomenal to hear that because it sounds like it's something that's been really needed in our industry to be able to have something this easy to deploy that it sounds like almost everybody could use it. It's not just for the professionals. Is that right? Andy: That's that's the goal. You know, there are products out there that have 10 X 100 X. The capabilities of what what I've been building because the The point of what I've been trying to build is something that's for everyone. Not something that is extremely scientific, not something that's research grade, not something that has to be connected to a control platform, but just a soil moisture sensor for the everyday user so they can have the tool to learn. So they can have the tool to see what happens as a result of their watering patterns. And I really think that that's a missing, a missing piece is that we don't, we are not able to connect the dots on what happens when you apply the water. We apply the water and then we We imagine what happens to it, and then we make some assumptions based on the health of the plant material. If the plant material is not healthy, then we make another assumption of I either over watered or I under watered, but we don't have a good tool to actually learn about the health. The application or precipitation rate, you know, and as it relates to the runtime on what you do. And so I think that, you know, somebody might say, I don't know really where I want to use this sensor. It's like, well, just go put it somewhere and you'll quickly have some data that will make you more curious. And you'll want to put another one in another spot because you'll get even more curious and then you'll start bringing in more data. You'll start learning and then you'll become. Over time, a better [00:10:00] irrigator because you have the, you know, cause and effect, so to speak, Paul: and, and to one of the things that I've learned through the knowledge lab that you've been working on is that, you know, this, this information that you're displaying, you're putting it in a way that It's easy for people to see it and understand it and ingest it. It's not in major graphs and very hard to see. So that's one of the things that I've really been encouraged about by the way that you're displaying the information on the application. Andy: Yeah. Again, right. It's gotta be easy and understandable and ideally in the palm of your hand, you know, the sensor in the palm of your hand and the data in the palm of your hand and I'm pretty excited about, uh, The level, let's see, how do I say this, the, I'm pretty excited about the level that the application is at for beta, you know, I think that, um, you know, a lot of products come to market as beta and they really are at level one, you know, maybe it's just one, just one graph and it's very simple, but what, uh, What the users will see in the, in the first beta launch is actually a lot of additional features in the software, um, such as notifications, users can set up an email notification that if the soil reaches a certain threshold equal to or greater than equal to or less than, et cetera, they can get an email notification, uh, right in the beta, in the beta version. That is a good, Paul: you're right. I did when you showed that to me, I was like, wow, I mean, it doesn't feel like it's irrigation technology. It doesn't, it's so much different in the way that you're able to bring it into the irrigation field, [00:12:00] um, with this technology is, is really astounding. Andy: And that's, it's interesting that you mentioned that because technology by itself would not be for any one industry because the technology is simply the technology. And so in this instance, it's about taking the technology that's available in the, in the greater world. But then applying it to our industry, using it. Um, you know, such like, uh, for instance, if the user would rather not have an email notification, but would rather have that notification run into a slack channel that they're on. That's totally possible. You know, we can send a notification when the soil moisture sensor reaches a certain threshold and send that notification through slack Paul: and forgive me for being one of the older guys on this call, but I don't use slack and I don't even know what it is. Well, Andy: you use Microsoft's version of Slack, which would be called teams. Okay. Uh, even though they're different, they're similar Slack, you know, predates teams, but, uh, you know, Slack is like, is like a chat communication tool with additional features and threads, uh, similar to Telegram. I know you use Telegram Slack would be similar and used by, you know. Used a lot by corporate America now to message with, with teams and update teams kind of like in a, uh, more efficient way than sending emails, sort of speak. And then how does it? Yeah, another modern tool, I guess. That's why I'm Paul: mentioning it. Tell me when you say that, because, you know, again, how does it interact with this, this slack? What do you, how do you Andy: set this? Yeah, I mean, the beauty of slack is let's say you've got a group of 20 people on a slack channel. And they can all be notified in Slack channel if the soil moisture reaches a certain point, right? So it's just, you know, there's a million different types of examples like that, uh, where you can take data from one source connected to another source. [00:14:00] Um, yeah. Paul: And when you're talking again, it doesn't feel like we're talking irrigation and that's what I like about what you're doing is you're bringing in technology that's not within the irrigation field and you're tying it into our application. So. That's another thing which really amazes me that you've done. Andy: Yeah, cool. Thank you. It'll be interesting. I'm really curious to see what users, number one, do with it. Where do they want to put it? What do they, what do they learn from it? What, uh, you know, what light bulbs go off for them that they didn't know before? And... Those kinds of insights will be helpful in order to, uh, improve, you know, the project, improve the product, the project to figure out which areas, you know, maybe need more focus, both from perhaps the data collection perspective, but also so that I don't have to assume what the users want. Because we need the users to use it to tell us, you know, the reasons and the places and what they need so we can build that. Paul: Well, you know, the use cases that I've started understanding when, when you came to me with this technology was that, you know, when I have a bunch of controllers out there and I'm manning to them and, you know, we have rain sensors on, they're supposed to shut them down when it rains. But we really. The settings aren't great, and you don't really have any feedback loop on those on the, uh, the rain sensor. Like, I don't know what the rain sensor set at. Is it a quarter inch? Is it an eighth of an inch? Um, and then sometimes we have to rely on remote weather stations, and I don't really ever find trust those when it rains or doesn't. So I really needed the ability to understand how the water is being applied at the site level. And I need to know when it [00:16:00] rains, what does the rain do to the moisture that I can shut the system down? So that's where I've been extremely interested in in these devices, having that capability and insight. Into what happens not only when an irrigation cycle applies the water, but what happens when it rains and how long does that take that rain to get to the moisture level in the soil that I don't need to operate my irrigation system. Andy: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. I like just thinking about what you're saying. It's almost like, uh, those who are curious will really like. We'll probably have a great experience with the sensor because it allows them to say something such as I wonder what happens when blank, you know, fill in the blank. I wonder what happens when it rained yesterday. What did that do? Which you don't have the visibility right now. Rain sensor clicks off, but it doesn't give you any data. It's it's just a switch. But there's there's there's no data coming out of it. Speaking Paul: of switches, I know you and I don't want to get ahead of myself because there's a lot of things that you talk about in your mind that goes on with With regards to what's next and what can you do, but I know you and I've had some discussions about, you know, having this sensor tie into a local like switch in the controller, like a rain switch where that you can suspend that. irrigation cycle on the standard controller with a rain sensor type switch that connects directly to the application. Is that what I heard? Andy: Right. Yep. Uh, yeah, we can hit that for a moment. So I think in any, as soon as, as soon as you have one idea and one idea becomes a product, then all of a sudden it unlocks more things. Okay, great. We can measure the moisture, but then, well, how do we? Turn the controller off or keep the controller off. Well, we need something tied to the controller. Okay, what can we tie to the [00:18:00] controller? Well, we need some type of a receiver switch that can open and close the rain sensor terminal since that's the controllers, you know, external device connection. So if we can open and close a rain sensor terminal, then we can. pause or suspend the controller. So, you know, the idea is, uh, and I guess I'll just share it is after, you know, after the, the, the hex moisture sensor is, you know, finalized beta, et cetera. Then the idea is to have a smart switch and a smart switch would be a universal controller adapter that can be used in combination with the soil moisture sensor or really anything else. Potentially in the world that's connected to the cloud, whatever that device might be, we can connect it to our smart switch, I. E. And then connected to the irrigation controller. So you could suspend the irrigation for any other possible reason, because now the smart switch is connected to the cloud. So, yeah, keep your, uh, keep your eyes open for that one, guys, because that, that, the smart switch would work with or without a soil moisture sensor. It may be the connection to the controller for a soil moisture sensor, but you could use it, you could just use it as a remote control off switch if you want. Now, now that I think about it, Paul: well, Andy, I know, you know, all the things that you're thinking of there are extremely interesting to me, you know, I'm very curious with technology. So I'm glad you're able to, you know, bring this to market, um, and take some of your ideas and it helped enhance and save water in the irrigation industry. Andy: Yeah. Appreciate having the number one beta tester in my back pocket. Paul: Well, I'm the one that's very curious. Andy: Yeah, and so guys if you are curious and you're listening to this prior to the IA show it starts next week Uh, meet up with Paul and I, we're going to have, uh, you know, get some people together with OpConnect on Tuesday [00:20:00] evening. Uh, and then again, you can join me at the baseline brew crew if you haven't registered for that on Wednesday. Uh, but Tuesday I'll have some, I'll have some beta units of the, of the sensor and the application. So if you want to get involved and participate and be curious and join in on the project. Would love to have you. Yeah. Look forward to meeting anyone who wants to come out and say hello at the show. Paul: Well, I'm anxious, Andy, for sure, to be able to get more of these out in the field and, and test them and see what's happening in my soils. Andy: Cool. Right on. Well, thank you, Paul, for the little, uh, the little brain share, and thank you for your support and, uh, being a fantastic advisor, uh, to me and the project really appreciate it. Paul:I'm probably your number-one cheerleader. There's no doubt about that. Andy: Thanks, man. I'll see you. Next week and, uh, catch everybody else, uh, catch you guys next week on another episode of the sprinkler show. See ya

Join host Adam Larson and special guest Paul McManus, as they discuss the importance of personal branding in today's accounting and finance industry, and how it can help you stand out from the crowd. Paul is a podcast host, the author of the book “The Short Book Formula” and the co-founder and CEO of More Clients More Fun.  Discover the power of writing and publishing a book as a means to enhance your personal brand and become a thought leader in your field. Explore practical tips and insights on how to effectively communicate your expertise, simplify complex concepts, and engage with both experts and non-experts alike. Don't miss this episode that will empower you to create expert status and level up your career as a financial professional.Full Episode Transcript:Adam:            Welcome back to Count Me In. In today's episode, we have a special guest joining us, Paul McManus. To discuss the power of personal branding for accounting and finance professionals. Paul is a podcast host, the author of the book The Short Formula, and the co-founder and CEO of More Clients More Fun.  We'll explore why personal branding is crucial in today's competitive landscape, and how it can elevate your status as an expert in your field. Paul, an accomplished author, with multiple bestsellers on Amazon, will share his insights on how creating a book can enhance your personal brand and establish you as a thought leader. We'll also touch upon the challenges professionals face when approaching the idea of writing a book and how to overcome them. Let's get started. Paul, I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast, today. We're really excited to talk about personal branding and becoming better versions of ourselves through that type of work. And, maybe, we can start off by talking about why things like personal branding are, especially, important for today's accounting and finance professionals. Paul:               Definitely. Thank you for having me, I appreciate being here. I think personal branding is one of the things, whether you're a small business owner, or whether you work at a firm, as a professional.  At the end of the day, when you're growing your business, or whether you're looking for promotions and to make a bigger impact in your world. Nothing, well, not nothing, but personal branding can be one of those things that help you differentiate yourself from everybody else.  One of the ways that I, primarily, focus on to help professionals with their personal branding is to help them write and publish a book. Which I know is something, again, I talk to a lot of financial professionals and I ask them if they've considered it, and many have. But it just seems like one of those daunting tasks that it's on someone's bucket list, but they never quite get to.  So, as part of the personal branding question that you asked, I'd love to deep dive, as appropriate, into how a book can really help accountants, and other finance professionals really take their personal brand to the next level. Adam:            Yes, definitely, when you think about writing a book, some people think, "Oh, no, I have to write this thousand-page book, and it's going to take six years, ten years of my life. But if anybody has looked at the show notes for this event, if they've looked at what you do. They've seen you written multiple books and they've been on Amazon bestseller. So how does creating that book really enhance your personal brand and elevate your status? Paul:               Yes, writing a book is one of those things that has a long history that people respect. I think there's really two things that help professionals stand out. One is writing a book, another is public speaking. There is the old quip from Jerry Seinfeld on the public speaking side that if you're at a funeral; would you rather be giving the eulogy or be in the casket? And the joke was, well, most people would rather be in the casket because they're terrified of public speaking.  But I think just the act of getting up and speaking in front of people, is just one of those things that most people are afraid of, and so they respect. It's the same thing for writing a book. It's something that just in our culture, there's a tremendous respect for someone who's put in the work, done the work, and who has written and published a book.  Because it's one of those things that really differentiate yourself from everybody else in the field. It's one of those things that people think about, talk about, and more often than not, never do. And there's a variety of benefits to doing it, personal branding be one of them, which we can go deeper on. And, then, there's also a variety of reasons why people never take that action. So, on the plus side, we want to be clear about why do it.  There's a great Simon Sinek talk about begin with why, and when your why is clear, then, you get that much more clear on the motivation and the how. And, so, let's talk about the why, from multiple ways to think about it.  So, again, if you are one of those professionals that does any work in the capacity, as a business owner. So let's say maybe you're a fractional CFO and you're looking to attract clients. Let's say that you work with clients themselves and, maybe, what you do is more difficult to understand. The ability to articulate your core knowledge through a book, way that is interesting and simplifies it to an outside audience. Especially an outside audience of non-experts, is a very powerful way simply to communicate.  I find that writing a book, it's a personal growth endeavor. Oftentimes you start with a blank page and you think, "Okay, what do I know about this topic?" And after a few minutes, you're like, "Oh, that's it." And, so, you have to say, "Wait a minute, I know more than this." And it really challenges you to think about what you know, and why is that important, and who's interested in that. How can you communicate that in a way that's effective? How can you use stories?  Oftentimes, especially, with accountants and other finance professionals, what I find is that there's a lot of jargon. There's a lot of technical terms. There's a lot of things that they understand implicitly through experience and study, but for a non-expert, they get lost. And, so, it's how do you communicate ideas in such a way that is relatable to whomever you're speaking to?  And, so, throughout that process, and we talked about personal branding a little bit, but it really helps you create leadership skills, communication skills, and those things all come together. And, so, whether you're looking to sell more, get a promotion, or simply be more effective at your job. The act of writing and publishing a book is an amazing vehicle to help supercharge those efforts. Adam:            Mm, yes, it's interesting because when you think about it, if you don't know how to explain what you're doing. If you don't know how to articulate it in a very good way. How can you be that storyteller, be that business partner? Whether you're in a firm and you're trying to go alongside the C-suite and make sure you're telling the story right, of what's happening financially.  But, also, if you're trying to build your own business, you got to be that. And there's that word that comes up, thought leader, and I think that word is thrown around a little too much. But, maybe, you can explain what does it mean to be a thought leader and how does that boost your brand, as you're building up this idea of writing a book? Paul:               Yes, I like that question. So before I get into thought leader, I want to talk about one of the opposites, almost. And it's an idea that you, probably, heard of and is known as Impostor Syndrome. And there are so many people that I talk to, come to me in one of two ways when we start talking about writing a book. On the one side, it's either "I have so much knowledge that I want to share with the world." And then, of course, they run into the challenge of "Where do I start?" On the other side, it's, "Who am I to talk about these ideas? What I do is very average and ordinary. Would people be interested in what I know?" And that's a form of Impostor Syndrome. And, so, as a starting point, in either case, what I love to be able to help people do.  On the one side, if they have a lot of knowledge and ideas that they want to share, is how do you simplify and focus that to a core message. That you have a core audience for and it resonates with them, and they're motivated to learn more about, ultimately, how you can help solve a problem, in most cases. Help them create that transformation from where they are to where they want to be, and do so in a compelling way that engages them and interests them. Then on the other side, if someone is stuck and thinking, "What do I have to share?" What I love doing with them, is really showing them it's like almost falling in love again, with all the amazing knowledge that you've learned. I mean, all of us, we've put years into our craft, into our profession. We've learned really cool things and, over time, because it becomes so routine and we don't actively think about it, let's say we get bored of it. Or it's just so routine that we forget how amazing it was the first time that we, actually, learned how to do something.  The first time I learned how to do something, I'm like, "This is the best thing ever." And, then, a week later, or a month later, it's like "I do that all the time." So I wanted to establish that first. Because, now, when you think about a thought leader- what is a thought leader? And there's a progression of what's considered a thought leader.  But, I think, first and foremost, it's someone who's perceived to be an expert on a subject. I think a lot of people go to university, get degrees, have some initials after their name, but I don't think they're perceived as thought leaders. I think that's considered pretty standard, pretty average.  But someone that's willing to go publicly and put their ideas out in public in the form of a book, or speaking and talking about a book. And when people listen to them or read their work, they see that they have a point of view, a cohesive set of ideas, and they can explain that in such a way that's informative or persuasive. That becomes the basis, in my mind, at least, of becoming a thought leader.  Now, the more exposure you get, the more media you do, the more you write, the more people are aware of you. I think that, then, grows your influence and, by definition, your thought leadership, and that's just really a factor of awareness of what you do. And, so, the more people you talk to, the more people know your work, the bigger your, quote-unquote, "Thought leadership" becomes.  I think at the end of the day, though, and what I do, I attract a lot of my clients through LinkedIn, and these are people that I don't know who they are. I've reached out to them in some form, or I've created awareness in some form because I work with financial professionals.  And, so, they are attracted by marketing in one way or the other. They read my book, they listen to a podcast, and then, at some point, they show up on my calendar, and it's that awareness through ideas, thought leadership, it could be described as, that can take someone who's a complete stranger, but attract them to you in a way that you want them to. And there's a lot of different applications there to do that.  I don't want to overemphasize what thought leadership is and make it this grandiose thing, that only a certain few select people do. I think any of us can be a thought leader, and it just takes the willingness and desire to package some of our knowledge, and be willing to put it out there in the public sphere. Adam:            Yes, I mean, the way you explained it, really makes a lot of sense because, I think, it's been a term that's been thrown around a little too much. But it's helpful to make it more applicable, saying, "Hey, anybody can be a thought leader because you have knowledge, you have experience, and it's just about sharing that knowledge."  So how does one get over that Imposter Syndrome that you talked about? Because I feel like the first step would be to, "Hey, how do I overcome my Impostor Syndrome?" Because you may realize, listening to this podcast, "Hey, I do have a lot of things I can share, but I don't know if I'm able. I don't know if people want to listen to me." Right there, the definition of that Imposter Syndrome. So how does one start overcoming that to move to the next step? Paul:               Yes, there's a quote that I learned from one of my mentors, maybe, 10 years or so, ago, his name is Michael Port, and he talked about learning in action. And what that means, to me, because I've really built up my current business from the ground up, over the past nine years. And when I started I didn't know a lot, and it was just I have to go out there and put up my shingle. And, then, as an entrepreneur, you have to figure stuff out. And it's just willing to take action, being willing to be uncomfortable.  I think the two components that are important there is that, one, you have a desire. You have an end result that you want to achieve. I mean, if you don't have motivation, then, chances are you're not going to follow through on it. So you want to have that why clearly established. Why is this important to you?  Why are you doing this?  And once you're clear on that why, then, you have, ultimately, the fuel that's going to propel you forward. I think the second part of that is to not go it alone. I think in any endeavor, in life, having a coach in some capacity. Someone that you have as a sounding board, someone you can bounce ideas off. Someone who's gone before you and can make the path that much easier to trot. I think those things are all extremely helpful in overcoming the Impostor Syndrome. So much of the time, it's just this small voice in our head that says, "You can't do this." Or "What are you doing?" And what you need, what's beneficial is to have someone supportive around you. Whether it's a coach or a group that can challenge you and say, "No, you absolutely have every right to do this." I want to share a story of one of my earlier clients. She's not an accountant or a finance professional, but she was a world-class expert in helping to rescue penguins. And her name, I believe it was, Diane, Dylan or Diane, I think, it's been a few years. But I was interviewing her on a podcast because I knew about her reputation, and she's written books, and she's one of like five people in the world, that can rescue penguins. When there's some global tragedy, the UN or whomever agency calls her. So that, I think, by definition, would be an expert. That would be a thought leader in the space.  But when I interviewed her, on the podcast, it was just amazing, she's like, "Ah, who am I to do this?" I mean, it was just remarkable, considering that she's like one of five people. She's written books, she does this for a living. But it just goes to show you that this is very common. And, so, I think, another aspect of that is just being aware that it's okay.  If you're having small thoughts, that's okay, we all go through it. And it's, ultimately, having that vision, that goal, that why that can help you say, "Okay, I'm willing to grow. I'm willing to stretch my comfort zone because there's a reason for me to do this." And, so, when you have those things in place, you can overcome Imposter Syndrome. Adam:            Definitely. Well, I like the idea of getting a mentor, getting somebody that has walked the road before you because they've... And I want to preface this, too, is you're not going to get everything right the first time. You're going to fail, and you can't be afraid to fail, right? Paul:               100%, myself, as an entrepreneur, one of the chief lessons I've learned is fail fast, fail forward, and we're going to get most things wrong. And the more you're comfortable failing, the faster you can become successful. It's not to say that you want to provide quality work and you want to do all these different things, but just being willing to fail is the fastest way to succeed. As an aside, I've taken Improv classes, and one of the key lessons that I learned there, and it's really a mindset, is that fail and fail big, don't get scared by it but embrace it. And, of course, in the Improv setting it's funny, the more you fail, the funnier it can be. But it really just becomes a mindset. And, so, just in your day to day, there are so many things that we act small on and we're afraid to do. But if you just have this mindset, "Hey, I'm just going to try it. What's the worst that can happen?" And you just say, "It doesn't really matter." Then that is the fastest way forward. Adam:            And it's interesting, when you were saying that. It made me think of a term that I've used a lot in my professional career, sometimes, like, "I'm just faking it till I make it." But, sometimes, I wonder if faking it till you make it is part of that Impostor Syndrome. Where "I'm just faking it till I make it." But you, actually, are doing a really good job and you're not faking it because you do know what you're doing. So I wonder if trying to getting over that mindset of "Faking it till you make it" and saying, "No, I'm just going to fail, fail hard, and keep going forward instead." Paul:               Yes, I hear you because, I think, "Fake it till you make it" almost has like a negative connotation, that you're not really qualified to do something. But, yes, it's how you frame it in your mind, and, I think, it could be similar. But it's, definitely, the way that I mean it's in a positive way, it's that that's the way to success.  But, again, that's where you can fake it till you make it on your own. And, maybe, that's where you don't tell anyone that you're uncomfortable, or you don't quite know what you're doing, or this or that and, maybe, there are some negative connotations there.  But that's where when you just understand that being uncomfortable is part of it, and you can surround yourself by like-minded people, or a mentor, or a coach, and they can help guide you, and set those boundaries, so to speak. Where it's okay to not get it perfect. It's okay to, fail, is a strong word, but imperfection is okay.  I think another analogy might be perfectionism. It's like, "Well, if I can't write a masterpiece, if it's not going on the New York Times bestselling list, then, why even bother? And another analogy or another metaphor is being willing to write something or step out and not be perfect. Because the act of doing something is inherently more valuable than staying small. Adam:            Yes, I like that. I like that it's a kind of reframing that mindset of, "I'm not really faking it, but I'm learning as I grow, and things may not be perfect. But I'm putting myself out there and that helps me grow, as a professional." Paul:               It is, and I think it's authenticity. Again, that's where you just reframe it from the "Fake it till you make it" which can be a little bit of a negative connotation, it's just being authentic. It's like, "Hey, I'm learning something new, I'm trying something new. It's not going to be perfect, bear with me, but this is my goal." And if you tell people that they'll appreciate your authenticity, when it comes to it. At the end of the day, part of Imposter Syndrome is the fear of being judged.  So it's like, "I'm really good at staying in this lane. I'm really good at it, and people respect me, and I get praise, and I get rewarded. And if I come into this other lane that I'm not comfortable with, then, I haven't developed my competency, yet. And, so, suddenly people see that I'm not perfect." And, so, again, it's all this mindset stuff that you need to grapple with. And, again, should you put yourself through the process and it goes back to your why. And we'll talk about personal branding or writing a book; what could it do for your career?  What could it do for your personal brand?  What could it do for your thought leadership?  What could it do for your ability to communicate?  What could it do for your confidence?  I mean, I find that before I do anything now I want to start by writing a book. Because if I launch a service, or a company, or anything, I want to start by writing a book because I know that in doing so, I'm going to get my own thinking very clear. I'm going to be able to communicate my message that much better and, then, my path to success is that much shorter. Adam:            Mh-hmm, I'm sure somebody's been listening to us chat about writing a book, and personal branding, and I'm sure somebody has thought of the term white paper. And when you think of professional writing, people think of white papers. Maybe we can help distinguish the difference between this book that we're talking about writing, and a white paper. Let's help differentiate that in people's minds, as we're talking through this. Paul:               Yes, in my mind, from a strictly writing standpoint, they could have some similarities. I think from a status and impact level, though, there's a huge difference. One's author, what I love about the word, is that it's part of the word authority. And, so, people see someone who's an author and they have a completely different view of them, immediately, in terms of their competency, their expertise, all these different things. Rightly or wrongly, that's the immediate perception that people have.  I think with a white paper you might have the same level of knowledge or skill set, but there isn't any status or additional credibility that is associated with it. There's no personal branding. Largely speaking, you don't go and tell people, "Hey, I wrote a white paper, no."  And it's like, "What?" Whereas when you say you're an author everyone, suddenly, steps back and says, "Wow, that's really cool."  So my recent book, it's called The Short Book Formula. And I think that one of the reasons everyone is afraid to write a book is that if you think about a 40,000-page business book, that could be a daunting task. And, then, conversely, if you actually want people to read your book, people have limited attention spans.  And, so, the idea of reading six, 10, 12, 15-hour book is a bigger task for the reader. And, so, what I've devised is what I call the Short Book Formula, which is based on writing a roughly 12,000-word book. Now, why is that important? 12,000 words and the way we format it, is roughly 100 pages, and 12,000 words can be read or, in audio form, listened to in about 60 to 90 minutes. With 12,000 words you have the ability to, in our case, we help people write and publish a book within six to 12 weeks. And, so, it's not this year-long thing that they have to do, it's a lot more manageable. And, on the flip side, when you give your book or when people read your book, they're that much more likely to, actually, not just get the book and put on their bookshelf. They're that much more likely to actually read, listen to, and consume the message. Which, especially, if you're in the role of selling, is extremely important. Short books have a strong pedigree. I have a list right here that. I talk about, so I'm going to name out a couple of titles that you may have heard of before. ●       The Art of War by Sun Tzu, 96 pages. ●       The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli, 94 pages.●       This next one, have you heard of The Communist Manifesto? For better or worse? Adam:            I have, yes. Paul:               40 pages. And, so, I share those examples because you can see the impact that short books have had throughout history. What I really love about short books is when someone reads it, if the message resonates, not only do they get through it and actually read the whole message, they're more likely to read it again.  I mean, there's books that I've read multiple times because I really enjoyed it and I can get through it, relatively, quick. And, this also helps to answer the question of the person who has too many ideas, so to speak, knows a lot of things, and is trying to focus in on what should my book be about? My answer would be, well, let's start with one book and get it really focused, in terms of your audience, what the message is, why they should read it, and write a book around that topic. But, then, from that point, you could start another book, 12,000 words. Maybe it's a new audience or it's a different topic. And, so, you have the ability to create, over time, a series of books. I mean, I've found that I've gone from publishing a book once a year. To, now, where I'm starting to hit two books a year just because I see the value of it and just the process of doing it, is that much more quick and effective. Adam:            Mh-hmm, wow, and from somebody who's read your Short Formula Book. It, probably, took me about two hours, just because I'm a slower reader, and I was thinking more about it. But it is a very quick read and it's an easy read. And it's not like you have to write at a collegiate level, but you want to write at a level that people can understand, and get through it quickly, and understand what you're talking about.  And, so, I think that's a huge difference, too, is that don't think that you have to write in this crazy way. Obviously, I mean, something like The Art of War, may not be easy for everybody to understand because of the way he wrote it. But other ones that went far like the communist one you mentioned, that one went far and wide to many different people because of the plain language, as an example of plain language, and how well that can affect people. Paul:               Yes, I mean, that's one of the things that a book well-written or well-read is, probably, the better way to say that, uses accessible language. It uses language that an average person, a non-specialist, can read, absorb, and learn from. And that might be another difference between a white paper and a book. I think, a white paper is more technical, in nature and it's geared more towards a technician.  Whereas a book, fundamentally, you have a specific audience in mind. But you want to expand who that audience is and, actually, get them to read it because it's interesting and engaging, uses stories to make points, but the language should be accessible. I mean, when you're trying to impress people through fancy language, oftentimes, it's actually the opposite. You want to make them understand it better. Adam:            Yes, you want to make them understand it better. I've always heard that "If you could explain what you do to an eight-year-old, you can explain it to anybody." And I think it's having that mindset when you're writing. Paul:               Well, and, then, from there it goes back to the benefits of writing a book is that it helps you to clarify your thoughts, it helps you to communicate your ideas better. And, then, aside from the actual book, it translates into your ability to communicate with people. Whether it's internal, in the company, whether it's external, you're able to express your ideas that much more clearly to a wider audience and be understood. So for someone who is looking for, say, more speaking opportunities. I mean, at a corporation or a company, oftentimes, the higher you go up the ladder, the more it requires your leadership and your communication abilities. And, so, it's just a great way to hone in on those skills, develop those skills, and then be recognized for it. Someone who has a book is much more easily given an opportunity to speak, whether it's at a conference, whether it's at a podcast, for example, whatever it is because it's trust in advance. People trust that you have a message that can help inform and teach people. Adam:            Yes, and it allows you, and it grows your name, as you get out there and get those opportunities. Paul:               It does.  Adam:            Yes, so as we wrap up the conversation, this has been a really great conversation. Thinking about the accounting and finance professional, and the people that you've worked with. Are there any examples you can give or any stories you can tell? That are success stories, that our audience can hear as they imagine how they could take this route? Paul:               Yes, definitely. One person that comes to mind, his name is Michael Poisson, and I met him, I want to say, a year or two ago. And Michael is, I think, he's really the epitome of everything that we've been talking about.  He's a ESG data specialist, and he works for a smaller company who, essentially, sells ESG data to, primarily, service-based companies, as well as to asset managers. And in his journey of it, part of what he was doing from a marketing and sales perspective, was that he was going to conferences, really as an attendee, and listening in, networking, doing all those things. And part of the value that he saw of writing and publishing the book, even though he was an employee for a company, not a business owner or an entrepreneur, was that it would elevate his personal brand. And it would give him more status to generate more speaking opportunities, to create more visibility, and credibility for what he does. So he published his book, I want to say, six months to a year ago. And I've spoken to him since then, and since then he's reported that, at these conferences, he's invited much more often to, actually, be a panelist or a speaker, which massively increases his awareness inside of his community. He's also gone on a number of podcasts, both as a guest. He hosts, now, his own podcast, and he invites thought leaders on.  But, essentially, having the book has allowed him to elevate his game, meaning that he can create a lot more visibility for himself. He can much more effectively network with more influential people in the process. And it allows him to go from this person at a small company, and because of that elevated personal branded awareness, he can more effectively compete with the larger companies out there in the marketplace. What's interesting about his story, and it ties back to what we've been talking about, is that he's a really smart guy. And I knew this from day one, working with him, ton of knowledge, all these things.  But to go back to the Impostor Syndrome, throughout our work together, continuously, he would not refer to himself as the expert. He would refer to, "Oh, these people they're the experts, I'm just gathering data. I'm just presenting the information." And I had to tell him over and over again, "You are the expert. In doing this process and demonstrating what you know and all these things, you are an expert." So it just goes back to that whole personal journey. I think it was also rewarding because, again, we've been talking about, and I could see this during the time that we worked together and afterwards. But it really helped him deep dive in terms of ESG, and its value, and the stories, and why it's important, and he, obviously, knew this stuff beforehand. But just in going through the process, it really deepened his knowledge and his ability to communicate with others. He even had a college professor, who is pretty prominent in his field, come to him and say, "Hey, I want to use your book as part of my course." Which was pretty cool. Adam:            Yes, that's pretty awesome. And I like that you told the story about how even during the process, as he was going through it and learning more, he was still struggling with that Imposter Syndrome, and that's a big thing for a lot of us to overcome. Because you don't realize, "I am an expert." Paul:               Yes, a 100%, and that goes back to why you don't want to go it alone, you want a sounding board. But you also want someone who can give you positive encouragement and challenge some of, perhaps, the limiting thoughts that you might have on your own. Adam:            Definitely, well, Paul, we could probably talk about this for another half hour. But I really appreciate the insight you've given us, you've given our audience, and I really think that they're going to really benefit from this. I encourage everybody to look at the show notes. You'll see links to Paul's website, if you want to check out his books and the stuff he's written, and if you want to get in touch with him, there'll be ways to get in touch with him, as well. And just thank you, again, for coming on. Paul:               All right, thank you, I appreciate it. I enjoyed the conversation. Announcer:    This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives, of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard, and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.

500 Million Gallons at Hickam AFB In this episode, Andy has a discussion with Paul Bassett, in the car, driving to the Hickam AFB in Honolulu Hawaii.  Learn more about ENVOCORE   === Andy: Welcome back to a very special edition of the Sprinkler Nerd Show. I'm your host, Andy Humphrey, joined by the one and only the magnificent Paul Bassett live, well not live, as close to live as we can get from the island of Oahu, Honolulu, on the way to, where are we going today, Paul?  Paul: We're going to the Hickam Air Force Base, where we're saving a bunch of water by retrofitting out some old, antiquated irrigation systems. Andy: And I think we should, you should give a little background on the Hickam project and why. Why you're here and then we can see if we have enough time to discuss why why I'm here with you But give us some background on the Hickam  Paul: project Well, we were lucky to be fortunate to be selected to help the Air Force Base and our client Amoresco save energy and water They're using based on our analysis initially in this particular project over half a billion gallons of water If you are an irrigation professional, old or new, who designs, installs, or maintains high end residential, commercial, or municipal properties, and you want to use technology to improve your business, to get a leg up on your competition, even if you're an old school irrigator from the days of hydraulic  Andy: systems, this show is for you. Paul: Um, specifically on the irrigation system, we analyzed them consuming about 300, 350 million gallons annually to virtually apply water to the grass around the common areas and the housing  Andy: units. Is that just outdoor water use or is that indoor and  Paul: outdoor? Well, the half a billion would have been total. So 350 million approximately annually on the landscape and 150 million. Uh, on the interior homes and  Andy: businesses and facilities. Wow. So Envacore though is headquarters in Maryland. How does a company headquarters in Maryland end up securing a project here in Honolulu?  Paul: Well, fortunately for us, we do work all over the country, uh, with regards to the Department of Defense. And we've been working with this particular client as long as we've been in business, 15, 20 years. So they trust, we're a trusted partner with them. So we're able to secure projects virtually all over the world with this client. And the client's Amoresco? Client on this one is Amoresco, yes, and they're, they're an energy service company. So what we do is we help them, when they secure projects, develop and build energy and water conservation projects for them that, that pay for themselves and the reduction of the utility bills.  Andy: So people oftentimes hear about these projects and hear about opportunities to conserve water and do performance contracting and generate an ROI that has a payback return on the savings, but I don't think a lot of, let's say, industry, Companies and professionals have an opportunity to get involved with them. So maybe you could tell us a little bit more about, you know, about this side of the, of the industry that only a few get to participate in right now.  Paul: Well, I think luckily for us, we've found a way. to really parlay irrigation savings into performance contracting. So it's really water savings as a service. And the key to the success that we've had over the years is we deploy and integrate the newest and latest technology to be able to almost in real time watch the water consumption move through the water meters and then report on that information directly to our client. So one of the benefits that we have is that You know, we, we calculate savings based on evapotranspiration and the amount of water being applied to the landscape. But in the real world, you really need the data to prove out the savings that you promised. So in order for our company and my company to be successful, we have to prove year after year that what we calculated in the water savings is real and tangible.  Andy: Awesome. So let's go back to, in order to... potential is. Let's, let's go back to when this project first started. When was that? What year were you first involved and how do you actually start looking at a project like this for the first time?  Paul: Well, this project has been going on since 2015. Initially there's been a lot of back and forth and up and down and contract negotiations and challenges. But what we typically do is we'll get the water bill and the utility bill and we'll analyze, you know, how much either energy or water. Water is being consumed and we determine from there what either gallons per square foot or gallons per person is being consumed and we'll do a weather analysis and we'll calculate how much water should be consumed by this particular plant in this particular climate and then we look at the utility bill and we say, huh, we think this site should be using 20 gallons per square foot annually and we see it's using 30 gallons per square foot annually. And then right away at that point, we know that we have an opportunity for savings.  Andy: Okay. So you do the analysis and then at what point do you actually come on site to do some verification and to look and see if that's actually poor performance with controls, if there's leaks, if it's distribution, when do you come in and do your first analysis? Paul: Well, when we do the utility analysis initially, and then we determine the viability of the opportunity, meaning we deem that there is potential for savings by looking at all of it. Okay. data. And if the data says yes, we think there's an opportunity. Then at that point, we all agree that we're going to engage into a contract and then we're going to deploy folks to be able to come out and actually physically do the audits, run through the irrigation systems, count all the sprinklers, try to determine the flow rates, extract the schedules and controls, and then establish from that point what the actual irrigation system or plumbing system or lighting system is consuming energy and value. I'm going to the  Andy: utility bills. Okay. So your team put eyes on every sprinkler on this project several times. Yes. Wow. Okay. So let's talk about the scale of this project so that the listeners can visualize what, what this is. So maybe let's talk about, let's go top down. If you can recall some of the data in terms of how many water sources, how many controllers, how many zones and potentially how many sprinklers. Paul: Well, as I mentioned prior to the, um, Initial conversation, Andy, we initially analyzed that they were using, consuming about half a billion gallons of water through all of the piping network and infrastructure. We then got all the housing unit counts and the peoples and bodies per potties. And we had meter data for all the irrigation. And then once we deemed that, then it was time to get really boots on the ground. And then from that point, we, we really go in and identify all the controllers, all the water supplies, all the valves. We put it all on a map, um, inventory, everything at that point. And, and then we know exactly what we're going to be getting involved with at that point. Okay.  Andy: So how many is that? You know, it's one thing to hear a half a billion gallons, but let's flip that over and turn and turn that into number of controllers, number of water sources, sprinkler count. What are those numbers look like?  Paul: We were just over 200 controllers on the site that were not battery operated controllers, just standard plugin controllers. We have 135, 140, I believe water connections where the feeding those 200 and some controllers. And then it was over 30, 000 sprinklers that were within the scope  Andy: of services. Okay. And those sprinklers include pop up spray heads, three quarter inch rotors, and one inch rotors. And  Paul: some drip. Some drip. You know, not much, but some drip. We're phasing the drip out of the scopes. Okay. Well,  Andy: there's not a lot of projects opportunity. Well, maybe there are, but they 200 controller retrofit opportunity and 135 water sources. That's a massive scale. And, what I didn't realize about this base before visiting is that it's like a village. People live here. You come through the gate, we're about to, right now, show them our DBID cards. To get access to the base, but this is like kind of Entering a private HOA community that's run by the government you live here you work here Everything happens on the base and maybe because I didn't grow up in the military. This is all new to me There's probably a lot of listeners that are like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we know this but to me I guess I thought at first that the base was just military operations I didn't realize that people lived on the base and that all of this housing and infrastructure is managed  Paul: Yeah, I mean, again, I think for us on this particular military base, I mean, there's a bunch of soldiers that live and work on the base and they consume water. They have consume energy. They want their grass to look good. I'm just like the rest of us who live in the regular population. Sorry Andy, we were going through the gates. So  Andy: I got distracted. Yeah, we going through real time, getting our security checked out right now. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you too. And, uh, I also I should have done my homework, but I didn't realize this is a. a joint base or what a joint base even Really meant and so this is and you can tell me paul. This is the air force and the navy. Is that correct?  Paul: Yeah, the official name of the site is joint base pearl harbor hickam okay, and we're we're working on the hickam side, which is the Air Force side of the military privatized housing  Andy: because this is a very strategic location for the United States and it's security for the world here in the Pacific. So they have air and sea operations, not really land operations because there's no land here. This is all this is in the middle of the. Pacific Ocean. So we have the air, right? And the sea joint on this base.  Paul: Yeah. And ideally if, if you think about how we're working here, it's primarily to reduce the amount of energy and water that the federal government spends on this utility. So we are helping the taxpayers reduce our debt or demand on the utility spent on this base.  Andy: And at this point, uh, let's start back. What, when did you start the actual renovations?  Paul: Well, once we got the approval to move forward with the construction, we started October of 2022. So we're just about a year and 11 months in into construction, um, which we're about halfway through the project. Um, it was a two year. Construction period. So we're about halfway in and, and we're right on, right on schedule with, with the construction timeframe.  Andy: Okay. And I think, you know, let's, let's talk a little bit about, I would love to hear from you. Where, where are you, where do you start? So you did the analysis, you know what you need to change. You've got your, you know, marching orders. Where do you start  Paul: first? Well, we were dictated here by the military and the housing folks on where we wanted to start. And there's some specifics that they wanted us to focus on certain areas of the base. And as you know now, Andy, there's multiple... neighborhoods that we work in. There's five distinct neighborhoods that we worked in, so we're, we're focusing on a neighborhood at a time. We're going in and completing that specific neighborhood, getting that fully functioning, getting that up a hundred percent, and then we can start managing the water and the data. And then once we complete a given neighborhood, then we move on to the next  Andy: neighborhood. Okay, and do you start with controls and get control of the system and work down to the sprinkler, or do you start with the sprinkler and work back  Paul: up to the controls? Well, we have a couple of different crews that we have, uh, deployed on the base. We have one crew that is focused on controls, number one, then we have another crew that we have come in as going to do the flow sensor master valves install. And then the, the final crew, which is the largest of the crews are the ones that are replacing all the sprinkler heads. So ideally we, we just, depending on how the. Workflow is the first crew goes in and starts retrofitting all the controls. That way we reduce or remove all of the standard control systems and then get control with the web based remote opportunity. And that way it's easier for the managers to control the control system remotely while the guys and gals on the ground are really doing the, doing the dirty work. And  Andy: what type of controls do you have here? Did you go?  Paul: We, we, um, went with weather track, which is, you know, the. System that's been proven beneficial for our company and our clients long term. We've been deploying WeatherTrack for over 20 years.  Andy: And, uh, which model  Paul: weather track? The ET Pro 3. Okay. Um, and then because there's some complexity of the water supplies, we have multiple controllers on a single supply. We have multiple supplies on multiple controllers. So using their OptiFlow system really helps integrate and manage the water on some of these  Andy: complex systems. Okay. At this point, as of today, September 15th. How many controllers have you retrofitted and installed?  Paul: Last I looked, we're about 125. So just over halfway, the halfway point of the controls.  Andy: Okay, and are of all those 125, do they all have flow sensors and master valves?  Paul: Today they don't because we're With the complexity of the digging permits and some of the other things. I think we have about 30 to 35 of the flow sensors installed at this point. Um, and then now we just got approval recently to go ahead and start excavating and some of the other areas to start putting in the flow sensors and master valves. It's just a little more complex with digging and excavating here on a military base. There's a complexity with regards to the, the permits that are required to dig on the site. Okay, so  Andy: you've got, uh, I think you said maybe 35 flow sensors. How, who watches those or looks at those and do you have to report on those or what do you do with that  Paul: data? Yeah, we have team members that their responsibility is to go ahead and analyze the data every day, take a look at all the reporting, take a look at all of the flow. Um, and then if there's a, there's an anomaly or an alert condition and then we dispatch the folks on the ground to go ahead and analyze and determine what the problem is. Okay.  Andy: And as of today, 11 months in, what, what's been the most difficult part of the project so far?  Paul: What we've seen is the transition between our services and the existing maintenance services. Like who's responsible for what? A lot of times they just wanted to go ahead and. Push everything on to us and the communication between our team and the existing facilities maintenance team Has been the biggest challenge trying to let them understand that they're still responsible For the neighborhoods that they have been working in and we're responsible for the neighborhoods We're working in so trying to get all of the parties together to make sure we're all working as one has been the biggest challenge Okay,  Andy: so let's uh I think let's maybe not bring this to a total close, but let's move to, you know, what we've been working on this week without, you know, exact details. Uh, you know, but maybe we should just talk a little bit about the concept of these very difficult, hard to manage areas that were part of this project that fall outside the standard scope of replacing a controller. And, you know, requiring some, some different type of technology that, you know, we look forward to sharing with the listeners at some point here in the future. And this is not a, a testing ground, but this is a unique application that we're able to deploy some very innovative technology to solve particular problems that traditional industry isn't able to solve.  Paul: Yeah. Well, good, good insight, Andy. One of the things that we found on this particular facility is that there's a lot of. Medians that are going through the neighborhoods. Um, and they're running and operating on a battery timer controller. So there's no remote activation or remote monitoring. So what we're doing is we're, we're in the midst of deploying some smart valves. What is a smart valve? A smart valve has more than just one activation. So it has flow sensing and master control and pressure and soil moisture. So what we're able to do is take away that old school just running whatever that time battery controller was and being able to provide remote access into that insight and be able to actuate that valve and monitor that flow remotely. Right  Andy: valve to the cloud where there is no infrastructure. There's no wires. There's no control. We just have one valve in a median We can now take that information put it right to the cloud manage it remotely and have all  Paul: of the data And that's really what has been extremely fun and rewarding to be able to deploy Some of this new technology into a place where they're just been using traditional controls.   Andy: and when it is just a single battery operated controller that is not connected to anything it runs a schedule, right? It does that schedule every Monday, Wednesday, Friday at a particular time and that's part of the water waste issue is there was no Smarter automation just ran like a  Paul: Like a clock and that the problem with that is is because of the site so big and it's hard to manage That these things that batteries die and now that area is brown and nobody understands Why or the they never adjust the clock from the summer rotation? So it was running seven days a week and then in the winter time It's still running seven days a week because nobody really sees it So there was really a lack of insight and management of those particular devices Yeah,  Andy: and there is outside of this project, there is a really big market opportunity for this technology. And I cannot wait to, uh, share this with the world when we're ready, perhaps at the IA show. For those of you listening, if you would like to join us at the IA show, we may be ready to share a little bit more about what we've been, what we've been working on and what Paul's deployed here at Hickam. Super exciting. Paul: Well, Andy, I know we are going to wrap this up because we got another. Half a day here to finish up this project.  Andy: So, and you're going to get dirty, right? I'm going to sit here in the car and edit up this podcast, right? You're going to, you're going to get, get dirty today.  Paul: I suppose not much editing luckily for this one today, Andy. Andy: Yeah. This might be one of the podcasts that is totally in the raw, not much editing. So I hope our mics work. Paul's got a mic on, I've got a mic on again, technology, dual wireless mics, just piped into my iPhone right here. So we got to the site. We're ready to finish up our last day. Thank you guys for listening. Keep your eyes open. There are projects like this that are out there. And large or small, there's plenty of projects like this. If you keep your eyes open, you will find them. Any, uh, last words of advice, Paul, for someone looking to maybe, you know, not get out of just installing sprinklers, but expand their business into more of this conservation performance contracting? I mean,  Paul: my... Thoughts to that is just keep your eyes wide open, be willing and open to change and test and fail and then succeed after you fail. That's what I've learned. And there's a lot of times with when you're dealing with technology that it doesn't work right out of the box. It's new. It's innovative. It's testing. It's trying. So that's really what we're doing. And what I've done over my career is, um, you test and you fail and you proceed on. And eventually. You're going to get to a point where you're going to find success because  Andy: if it were easy, anyone would do it. This is the truth. Awesome. Appreciate your time. Paul. Good week with you. I thank you so much and appreciate everybody listening. Mahalo. Mahalo.  

Hope Ankeny - Sermon by Minister Emily Beltrame from Sep 3, 2023

I met the Yonder Oak Wood team back in March to discover how this landscape will be transformed for people and wildlife, and what designing a new wood involves. The vision is to attract plentiful wildlife with healthy habitat that offers refuge from weather extremes and fights climate change. The local community has been involved from the off - volunteer Sally Burton joins us to explain what she gets up to, how excited everyone is about the future and what volunteering means to her. We also hear of efforts to make the site more sustainable, from re-usable fences to tree guard trials, and I get my hands dirty planting a tree. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Well, today I'm off to, well, the wonderfully named Yonder Oak Wood. And although it's called a wood, it's not really a wood yet. This is a very exciting project, but it's in the very early stages of creation. It's near Exmouth in Devon. The Woodland Trust plans on planting, I think something like 13,000 trees there, creating a new environment for nature and wildlife to bounce back. Sounds a great place to go, I'm going to meet a few people there. First off, though, is my contact at the Woodland Trust today, Rachel Harries. Rachel: So this site is Yonder Oak Wood, it's not quite a wood yet, as you can see, but the Woodland Trust bought it in March last year with the aim of creating, creating a new wooded landscape here. So it's 54 hectares, we think it is the biggest woodland creation site that the Trust has done in the South West in in 20 years, so 54 hectares, that's equivalent to about 100 football pitches, and it sits on the sort of two sides of a hidden valley, just a couple of miles inland from the South Coast of Devon. So where we're stood, we can actually see out to the mouth of the Exe estuary, to Dawlish and and possibly to Torquay there as well. Adam: I I think you can just see the estuary over there can't you, just beyond that last bunch of trees is that right? Rachel: You absolutely can, yeah, you absolutely can. And actually the other day when I was here, I saw a white bird fly over that was an egret that was obviously based in the estuary, so really exciting. Adam: And why, now this site, I happen to know is, it it's quite important because of the anniversary and just explain to me, explain to me a little bit about that. Rachel: That's right. Last year was the 50th anniversary of the Woodland Trust and the first site that our founder Ken Watkins ever bought was in Devon. So it's really emblematic that we are now creating a new woodland, probably I think it's about 30 miles away as the crow flies from the Avon Valley Woods where we were started. But we're now creating a new woodland in the county of our birthplace, which is incredibly exciting, and we wanted to create something that would have meaning for local people and it would like, it would be tied into the local environment, so we did things like we looked at the name of the stream, we looked at old field names and we came up with a shortlist of names that we could then offer out to the local community and ask them which one, which one they wanted and what they wanted to call this new site. And one of the field names was Yonder Oak Park. And that's really quite special because as you look across the site, you can see all these incredible old oak trees over yonder, off in the distance. So I have to admit that was my favourite but we let the community choose and they voted for Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Right well you're gonna take me on a little walk around here, so just explain to me a little bit about what we're gonna see. Rachel: OK. Well, we're starting here on a sloping field that has old oak trees dotted about the landscape. Some of these are a couple of hundred years old and there's one in particular which we can see just off in the distance, which is one of my, one of my favourites that is standing almost on on stilts. And the stilts are actually its roots that would have once been embedded in a Devon bank, which is a sort of a solid hedgerow that we find in Devon that has trees planted on the top and the hedgerow and the bank has been taken away. So the tree now kind of stands about a metre above the height that it would have once been. Adam: Which one, I can't tell which one that is? Rachel: So can you see there's two in that field over there, we'll walk past it so we can have another look at it. Adam: Yes, I see that, I see that. OK, maybe my eyesight's not very good. So and this goes, these are currently separate fields and there's what a field and then a hedgerow, another field, then another hedgerow, then the tree supposedly on stilts and beyond that what looks like a solar panel farm. So is this the, what will be the new woodland all the way up to the solar panels? Rachel: We've worked to design a mixture of of habitats here, so we have about 5 different fields where we're doing much more intensive planting and that's what people would kind of imagine that would grow into what people would imagine a woodland would look like, but then in some of these other fields, so the field that we're stood in and a couple of other fields that you can kind of see off in the distance there, we're going to do a mix of open space, glades and groves. We'll plant some more of these kind of trees that will be allowed to to thrive and to spread on their own, but we'll also plant a mixture of of scrub and shrubs, so that's more lower growing trees, things like blackthorn, hawthorn dogrose, spindle, just to create a really good mix of habitats for all the birds and insects and bats that we, you know, we know are going to thrive here. Adam: And you, you've arranged for us to meet a a couple of people, haven't you? Rachel: Yeah. So we're going to be walking around with Paul Allen, he's our site manager and we're going to meet Sally Burton, who is one of our volunteers here. Adam: The weather's been kind to us so far, but it is a little nippy so we shouldn't keep them waiting. So do you wanna lead on and we'll go meet them. Rachel: Yes, let's go. Adam: And I'm told there there was some sea shantying going on here, which strikes me as odd because we're not, we're not in the middle of the sea or anything. So what's the story behind that? Rachel: Well, we're not far from the sea. We can see, we can see the, we can see the sea here. But we were contacted by a a group of local acapella singers who were inspired by what we're doing here and had decided to take some modern folk songs and to rewrite them to to reference the wood. So they came out one weekend and they sang to our to all of our planters, but we also talked a little bit about sea shanties, which I like the idea of becoming tree shanties. So they took a traditional sea shanty and they changed the lyrics. So we now have a song all about Yonder Oak Wood that we could sing along to. Adam: Great. And that we're going to hear that now from from you. So here's Rachel with her tree shanty. Is that right? No? Rachel *laughs* I don't think so. Adam: Do you have a recording of it? Rachel: I we do have a recording of it actually, yes. Adam: You never know. I don't know. Maybe a couple of teas or beers later, I might persuade you to sing. Alright. Brilliant, Rachel. Thank you very much. Rachel: Thank you. That's great. So here's Paul. He's the site manager and he's going to take us on a little walk down through Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Paul, thank you very much. Nice to see you. So you are the site manager. Paul: Hello there. I am. Yes, I'm responsible for turning these fields into a wild, wildlife rich area. Adam: OK. Well, go on. Let's lead on. We can have a chat about that. Brilliant. So yeah. So these are early days, Paul. I understand you you are responsible for designing the woodland. What does that actually involve? Paul: So really, I mean the the the first place you you start is is kind of kind of getting a sense of where the place is and what the place is and the the key bit here as we walk through it is you can see these big old oak trees and so we've based a lot of the design on that. So you can picture in the future lots more of these big old trees that will have lots of deadwood, lots of rot holes where birds can nest, and invertebrates burrow in. And the way we're kind of going to maintain it is we're we're going to put animals in and have low intensity grazing and then you kind of build in where the views are. Adam: I mean it must be really exciting because it can't be that often that you you get actually a green field or literally a greenfield site. But it's more or less bare. It's a plain piece of paper for you to design. That's quite, I mean, it's exciting, quite an honour, perhaps a little daunting? Paul: I've I've done probably 30 years of nature conservation and most of what you do is you take bits of habitat and you try and restore them, you try and protect them. You very rarely get a chance to actually create something brand spanking new. It is really phenomenally exciting for all of us, because if you think about it in the future, 100 years time, this place will be on maps. It will be on aerial photographs, you know so not only are we doing stuff that's great for wildlife and great for climate, we're effectively creating history as well, which is an awesome thing to be a part of. Adam: Yeah, so on the map it should say Yonder Oak Wood, brackets Paul Allen. *both laugh* Rachel's in the background going it's my wood, it's my wood. There might be a battle for the name. Paul: I'm I'm doing the design that says it from the sky it'll say Paul was here. *both laugh* Adam: Yes, yes very good, on Google Maps you can, you know, in 100 years time they'll go well how did those trees get planted in the shape of Paul? *laughs* So, OK, look, we're, we're, I've paused because we're at the we're at the top of the hill, almost. So what will happen around us? At the moment there are three or four trees in a line and not much else. So what will be here? Paul: So if you if you picture it in the future, what we'll have is we'll have a a, a a scattering of big old oak trees like we can see across the site and if you look over to our left, you can see an area that actually was the former quarry on the site. But if you look at it, you can see gorse that's currently in flower, even though we're in a freezing day at the beginning of March. And all of that is really good for wildlife. It's got lots of pollen and and nectar and lots of edge that birds and insects really like. And essentially what we're gonna get in the future is a combination of these big old oak trees and that lovely scrubby stuff that's great for wildlife. Adam: So here not too dense? Paul: Not too dense here no, not at all. Adam: So you get the view, you get a nice view and it's a mixed habitat. Paul: You, you, you, you get a view, it's it's very, we've we've constantly said we're creating a kind of a wooded landscape not a wood. Adam: Right. Well, we should carry on walking out, I have a tendency, just not to walk. I can see right over there some white poles which look like tree guards. Which does raise this issue I mean of how you're going to protect the trees because plastic tree guards have become quite controversial. Do you have a plan around that? Paul: Yeah, so we've got we've got, last year the the Woodland Trust decided that it would stop using the virgin plastic tree guards on its sites, which is actually a bit problematic because there aren't really any other types of tree guard that are commercially available at scale, so we're doing a combination of things here. The the main way is we're going to deer fence the site to stop the deer coming in and then we're also in some places we're trialling different types of tree tubes, so we're looking at one at the moment that bizarrely, has been made of sugar beet so it smells like golden syrup when you walk up to it, which is quite weird, and the ones you can see over there are actually recycled from another site. So we're, we're still, we're still using the tree guards that are effectively usable. Adam: Right. You talk about trying to protect the trees from deer. Which does raise the issue of other wildlife. I mean, clearly, we're gonna be hoping that wildlife get attracted into the area once this starts growing. At the moment though, have you have you seen much evidence of sort of new wildlife or any wildlife? Paul: It's still very early days yet. But we've seen lots of buzzards there's there's actually quite a lot of hornets nests in, in the existing oak trees. Adam: Is that a good thing? That sounds terrifying. Paul: *laughs* I I I personally I quite like it. Adam: You're pleased about that, OK. I think a lot of people always feel it takes generations and generations to plant trees. I know I have been at planting events where some young people have planted and said, oh, I think my children and my grandchildren might come to see this tree and then are surprised, actually, they come back to see their own tree and it grows quicker than they might expect. How quickly is this going to develop into anything recognisable as woodland? Paul: So I mean, with within 10 years, it will absolutely look like a woodland, although obviously still a young woodland and different tree species grow at different rates. So the silver birches and the rowans will actually be 6 foot high within two or three years potentially, whereas the the oak trees clearly will grow a lot slower. Adam: Wow, silver birch and rowan, 6 foot high in how long? Paul: Two or three years, if they if they take well. I mean it it it it varies depending on the soil type and all that sort of stuff, but they do grow very, very quickly. Adam: Blimey. And tell me a bit about how you got into all of this. I mean, I know you say you've been doing this a while. Paul: I started well I started off volunteering actually with the British Trust for Conservation Volunteers a long time ago, and I got known by the Norfolk Wildlife Trust and rather randomly, I was having a beer in a pub and they went, do you fancy a job, and I went, alright then. Adam: Very good. So you've learnt on the job about trees? Paul: I I reeducated a few, some time ago but yeah a lot of it was learned as I went along. Adam: I've been very insulting, you've you've probably got a PhD in trees or something. But I do like the idea of, I got my job from a pub, I think I think that's always, I remember a story, so I don't know if you remember a film critic called Barry Norman, he always used to say, I I remember him telling a story, there's a pub around the BBC called, I think it's the White, White Horse or something like that. And he went when he was unemployed, he used to sit there pretending he was writing scripts so that BBC producers would come in for a lunchtime beer, which they don't do anymore, but they used to and they would go, oh, Barry, yeah there's a job we have and he wasn't working at all, he was just trying to be in the pub around and that's how he got his work, so that's clearly not just media, it's it's the tree world as well. Paul: It's it's it's very much very very clearly, a lot harder now than it was, because at that point in time, I guess nature conservation really wasn't a career. Adam: Yeah. We've come across a locked fence, but Paul has a key, there we are. There we are. Into the next next field. Ah, right away. Here's a very different type of fence, and I presume this is to keep the deer out. So first of all, massive fence, is this to keep the deer out? Paul: This is to keep the deer out. Yes, absolutely. And what will happen where we're standing, the hedgerow will creep out into the fence and obviously the wood that we're planting inside will also start to hide the fence. So the fence over time will disappear apart from the gateways. Adam: So I mean, there's a good 7 odd foot here between the hedgerow and the fence. You're saying that that hedgerow will naturally grow another 7 foot? Paul: Yep. So what what what we've got in this hedgerow, actually it's it's it's quite specific to this area is we've got a lot of a lot of small leaved elm and we've also got a lot of blackthorn in it and both of those sucker. So as as we've taken the the the intensive farming off the land the the shrubs will just sucker out and gradually spread into the field. Adam: And look, and we're standing by the main gate and there's a huge tree trunk here, which is holding the post. And I can see the bark coming off. Now is that is that deer trying to get in there do you think? Paul: No, that that's actually that's just part of the process of actually creating the post. Adam: Ohh, that's just that's just me being an idiot. OK, I thought I was being a clever nature detective *laughs* Paul: I mean what one of the one of the key bits about this fence though, is that that the Woodland Trust is now focusing very heavily on sustainability with everything it does. The, the, the reduction in use of plastic is one of those key bits. But these are sweet chestnut posts, so they there's no chemical preservatives in them or anything like that, and they're kind of the the the main posts at the corners, if you like, of the fence. And then we're using a metal fence with metal posts and and the idea is that when the trees have grown up after 20 years and they're no longer a threat from the deer, we can take this and reuse it elsewhere, so we're constantly thinking about that sustainability stuff all the time. Adam: Right. So we're in this more protected field. Which I can see has been laid out actually. Is this for the planting scheme, little posts and sort of lines of rope? Paul: Yeah. So one of the issues with going plastic free is it becomes very difficult to actually see what you've planted. Because if you look at here it just still looks like a field but actually there's somewhere in the region of well around 2 to 3000 trees already in there. Adam: Oh gosh, I didn't realise that. So yes, with the plastic safe, plastic guards on a tree you see these white telescopes sticking up all over the field, so there's thousands of trees here, we just can't see them. Right and a a lot of that has been planted by volunteers? Paul: We've had somewhere in the region of 400-500 members of the public come over four days, so we've got a a set of volunteers who have who've have have they've been brilliant actually, they've come and they've helped kind of manage all the public and they've helped work with the schools, they've helped us set out where the trees are going, we couldn't have done it without them at all. And here is one of our volunteers now, here's Sally. Adam: Brilliant. Alright, well, let's go over and chat to Sally. So Sally. Sally Burton. Hello. So I've heard lots of lovely things about you. So just tell me you're a volunteer, which in this context means what? Sally: Hello. That's nice. All sorts of things. I've helped this in during February with the public planting days and with the school planting days, helped children dig holes, some of the children are too small to get the spade in the ground very easily. I've planted quite a lot of trees myself. Adam: And why why did you get involved? Sally: I'd been looking for a while to volunteer for an organisation that does things outdoors and something a bit physical and so when the Woodland Trust appeared in the village hall I just went up and said do you need volunteers and they said yes please so I signed up straight away. Adam: And I mean, what does it offer you? Why is it a fun thing to do? Sally: I enjoy working with the other people. The staff are great and the other volunteers have been great fun. In fact, I've reconnected with someone I knew a few years ago and she's been helping up here as well, so that's been great. I like being outside, I love being outdoors. I don't mind about the weather. I like doing physical things and it's it's great to see, to make a difference. Adam: So yeah, so what what sort of difference do you feel you're making then? Sally: Well contributing to turning this basically what looks like an empty field into a forest. That's really amazing. People have been very excited about it. Lots of local people came up and planted on the public open days. Everyone's looking forward to being able to come up here and experience it themselves and enjoy the trees and the views obviously the views across the estuary and out to sea are beautiful. And there are lots of birds already. It's a very beautiful place. Adam: And so how much of your time does it actually take up? Sally: Well, during February and the beginning of March, quite a lot, I've been coming up for days, getting here about 8:15 and going home about 4 o'clock. Adam: Right. So why is that, why is that the the busy period? Sally: Because that's when the tree planting has been going on. Adam: First time you've ever planted a tree? Sally: I've planted a couple on my allotment, but certainly the first time I've planted on such a scale. Adam: Right. Have you kept count, how many trees are you in? Sally: No. Well, on one of the public planting days, I'd finished registering people and I planted 25 I kept count of those and on Wednesday this week, a school was in and when they cleared off, I finished planting the trees in their little area. And I think there was about 30 there. I'm not sure I lost count after about 12. Adam: There should be scouts or sort of brownie badges, shouldn't there, I'm I'm 100 tree-er, you know. Very good. Fantastic. Well, look, thank you very much. I can't believe this is the the the the field in which you've planted. Sally: It is, you can't see many of the trees. Adam: I I can't see any of the trees, what do you mean many of them. Ohh a couple yes. Sally: Across there you can see some with leaves on those are sessile oaks which were planted a little while ago, and they show up. Adam: Any of those yours? Sally: Possibly *laughs* They show up because of the leaves. But over there, most of the area there is planted. Adam: OK, brilliant. You're talking about planting, Rachel has appeared over the hill. She's brandishing a erm Sally: A spade. Adam: A spade *laughs* I forgot the name. You can see how ill equipped I am to do this. I forgot the name of what she's, so I think she's tempting us to go plant so let's go off. Adam: *coughs* Sorry, I'm already having a heart attack from the idea of physical exercise, I haven't done anything yet. OK, so we we have a spade and this is a virgin bit of land, no, no trees planted yet? Sally: No trees in this section yet. Adam: So I get the honour of planting the first tree. Sally: The first one. Adam: So you're gonna talk me through this and I'm gonna. Sally: So the first job... Adam: Oh yes alright, I'm already jumping ahead of myself. Sally: The first job is to screef? To screef the area... Adam: What what is what is screefing? Sally: ...which is where you do this to kick away the grass with your shoe to make a square or an area to get rid of the grass, doesn't have to be too big, not much wider than the blade of the spade, put the spade in there, and then don't lift it yet come round that side and make a square on that side. Yeah, cut it down. Then on that side... Adam: I feel I've hit the... Sally: One of the pebbles. And then the final side and then you could probably lever out a lump of turf. Adam: Then I can lift it out. Sally: OK, here's a tree. And we need to make sure when it's in the hole, the soil covers up to just above the top of the the highest root. So if we test that, that's not deep enough, so need to go deeper. Adam: It's not deep enough. Overall, I'm not doing particularly well I have to say. Sally: Let's have a look. That's looking good there. Adam: You think that's all right? Sally: Yeah, that's OK. So the next job is to crumble the soil. Adam: With our hands? Sally: With our hands, back into the hole, loose bits first. Adam: They didn't say I was actually gonna get my hands dirty. Sally: *laughs* And then if you've got any clods that have got grass on them make sure they go in with the grass facing down. Adam: Ok do you know why? Sally: So that the grass will die and then it won't be in competition with the tree as the grass uses a lot of the water. Adam: It's a bit leaning a bit, isn't it? Sally: It is a bit, let's push some more soil in. Adam: You see, it's fine now, in 20 years time, someone will come and go, who the hell planted that tree, it's at 45 degrees! Sally: Then the last job is you stand up. Adam: Yeah, stand up. Sally: And use your heel to press the soil down to push out all the gaps so that it doesn't dry out if it's sunny. Adam: And how compact, we don't want to make it too compact. Sally: Quite firm, quite firm. Adam: Yeah? Do you know what I don't, I feel that's leaning, that's no good. Sally: Don't worry, it'll straighten itself up. And the final thing is you do the tug test. Where you just get hold of it and just pull it gently. And if it stays where it is, then it's planted properly. Adam: I name this tree, well and truly planted. Sally: Congratulations. Adam: Thank you very much. Very good. That's brilliant. Well, I have to say although me and Sally were planting, Rachel and Paul were looking were looking on. So Paul's still here, how did I do? Paul: Well, let me just check, shall I? Adam: *laughs* You're doing the tug test. Paul: It's it's been really fun actually with with, with the the the public when you come and kind of just check it, you can see them all hold their breath to make sure they're doing it right. Adam: And it comes out *laughs* Is it alright? Paul: No, it's grand. Absolutely brilliant. Dog rose it, it's a little bit crooked, but you know dog rose will naturally straighten itself up. Adam: Will it correct itself? Paul: Yeah and it's kind of you can already see it's a bit of a straggly thing and it'll do its thing and it'll be fine. Adam: Fantastic. What is your sense, really, of of what this might be in the future and how exciting is that for you? Paul: I think in the future, you know, we're we're we're we've got something here that at the very beginning that is gonna be hopefully really important for wildlife and that most of the design is about trying to get as much wildlife here as possible because we're close to the pebblebed heaths it will it will act as a little bit of a refuge in the heat as potentially the climate heats up in the future and that's all really brilliant. And then the other exciting bit is the fact that we've started from the beginning with people involved. That, that, that scenario, but when you look in the future, the you know the the trees that we're planting today are going to be like these big old oak trees in 3-4 hundred years time that when you get your head around it is really quite amazing. And these trees and this wood will be on maps in in the future, and you know, we're creating history, we're changing landscapes and it's all such a a positive thing to be involved in. Adam: That is amazing that in 3-4 hundred years there'll be a woodland here, the history of who planted it, the history of us being here today will be lost. They won't know who planted these trees perhaps, they won't know the story, but the trees will be here. They'll be there, they'll tell their own story in the future. It's an amazing thing to be part of isn't it. Paul: Yeah and you know if if you think about how many times do you get to do something that will still be here in three, four, 500 years time? That's just incredible. Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you and don't have any idea of where to look, do go to the Woodland Trust website and its woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, so that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

In this episode, I talk with the CEO and founder of an organization that has been applying AI to help them develop products. Will AI help you develop your products faster? Come and see. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So today I have this opportunity to speak with one of those brains out there in the market that's being disruptive, right? They're making changes in the industry in terms of not only the problems are solving, but it's the way in which they're solving the problems using AI very fascinating. Anyway, everyone, please welcome Paul Ortchanian here to the show. Paul Hi, nice. Nice, nice of you, happy to be here on the show.  Grant Absolutely. It's very good to have you here today. When I was first introduced to you. And I started to review your material what it is that your organization has put together as fascinated with the approach because I have a product development background and in in the software world. AI was late comer to that right meaning over generations when I saw the approach that you're taking to that I'm interested to dig more into that. But before we do that big reveal, could you maybe step back and talk about the beginning your journey? What got you on this route? And this map, both in terms of product development, and technology and AI itself? Paul Yeah, absolutely. So I started out as an engineer, headed down to San Francisco in the early 2000s. And, and I was more of a thinker than an actual engineer, or just be the type of guy who would figure things out by themselves. But if you were to ask me to really do things that the real things engineers do, you know, creativity was there, but not the solutioning. So being in San Francisco was a humbling experience, I guess, Silicon Valley, you get to see some really, really good engineers. So I had to make a shift in my career. And since I had a passion for user experience, the business aspect, product management was a great fit a function I didn't really understand. And I got to learn and respect, and did that for about 10 years.  In the mid 2000s, and 10s, I basically moved back to Montreal for family reasons and cost of living, of course in San Francisco. And I started a company called Bank Biddick, which in French stands for public bath. And the idea is that most what I realized in Canada was that people here in accelerators, incubators and, and startups just didn't understand what product management was. So they didn't really understand what they do and how they do it. And I saw a lot of organizations being led by the marketing teams, or the sales team and being very service oriented and not really product LED.  So basically, it basically stands for public bath, which means every quarter, you want to basically apply some hygiene to your roadmap, you have a galaxy of ideas, why not go out there and just, you know, take the good ones and remove the old ones and get rid of the dirt. And we started with that premise. And we put we said, well, what does a product manager do on a on a quarterly basis? Because a lot of the material you'll read out there really talks about, you know what product managers should do in terms of personas and understanding the customer's data and this and that, but nobody really tells you which order you should do it. Right. If that was my initial struggle as a product manager, do you try to do it all in the same day and then you realize that there's not enough time? So the question is like in a one quarter 12 week cycle, as my first three weeks should be about understanding the market shifts the industry, the product competitors and and the users and then maybe in the next three weeks working with leadership on making sure that there is no pivots in the organization or there are some some major strategic changes and then going into analyzing the DIS parking lot of ideas and figuring out which ones are short term and re and making business cases in order to present them for, for the company to make a decision on What to do next on the roadmap.  So there is a process and we just call that process SOAP, which goes in line with our public bath theme. So the idea was like, let's let's give product managers SOAP to basically wash their roadmap on a quarterly basis. And, and that's what being public does. And we work with over 40 organizations today so far, on really implementing this product LEDs process within their organizations, we work with their leaders on identifying a product manager within the organization and making sure that marketing support sales, the CFO CEO really understand how to engage with them what to expect from them, and how product manager can add value to to the organization. And so they just doesn't become, you know, this grace towards them as many features as you can pump out, right. Grant Oh, boy, yeah. Which, which is constant problem. The other thing that I've noticed, and I'm wondering if, and I'm sure that your SOAP methodology addresses this, it's the problem of shifting an organization in terams of their funding model, right? They'll come from sort of these project centric or service centric funding styles, and then you've got to help them through that shift to a different funding model round products. You guys address that as well. Paul Yeah, we address that a lot. One of the things we always tell them is if you are a service professional services firm, and you know, I have no issues basically calling them that. If and I asked them like do you quantify staff utilization in percentages, like 70% of our engineers are being billed? Right? Do we basically look at the sales team? How many new deals do they have in terms of pipeline? Are we looking at on time delivery across those, so double use that to serve the sales team closed? And what is our time and technical staff attrition, that usually tends to be identifiers of you being a service firm? And we often ask them, well, let's let's make the shift, when we identify one little initiative that you have that you want to productize because they all these service firms, really all they want is recurring revenue, then the service is tough, right?  That you constantly have to bring in new clients. So this recurring revenue, the path to recurring revenue is, you know, being able to say, Okay, I'm going to take two engineers, one sales person, one marketing person, one support person, and a product manager. And those guys collectively will cost me a million dollars a year, and I'm going to expect them to basically bring me $3 million in recurring revenue. That means that they're, they're no longer going to be evaluated on staff utilization, they're no longer going to be evaluating the number of deals they're bringing in. And they're, they're really going to be evaluated on how are they releasing features? Are they creating value for those features? are we increasing the number of paid customers? And are we basically, you know, staying abreast in terms of competitors and market industry changes.  And so that's a complete paradigm shift. And that transition takes a while. But the first seed is really being able to say, can you create an entity within your organization where the CFO accepts that those engineers are dedicated and no longer being, you know, reviewed in terms of their utilization rate in terms of their know how much they're billing to customers? Once they do that shift in the recipe is pretty easy to do. Grant Yeah. So it's become easy. So the thing to I've seen and experienced with, with product and product development is the relationship of innovation to product development. And so I see some groups will take innovation, and they'll move that as some separate activity or function in the organization, whereas others will have that innate within the product team itself. What have you found effective? And does self addressed that? Paul Yeah, I mean, we always ask them the question of what how are you going to defend yourself against the competition with the VCs that have to call their moat, right? And that defensibility could be innovation, it could also be your global footprint, or, you know, it could be how you operationalize your supply chain make things really, really cheap, right? Every company can have a different strategy. And we really ask them from the get go. We call this playing the strategy, we'll give them like eight potential ways a company can, you know, find strategies to differentiate themselves? And the first one is first the market?  And the question is, it's not about you being first to market today. But do you want to outpace your curlier closest rivals on a regular basis? And if so, you know, you need an r&d team and innovation team who is basically going to be pumping out commercializable features or r&d work. And then we always give him the two examples, the example of Dolby Dolby being completely analog in the 70s, but really banking on their r&d team to bring him to the digital age and from the digital age to set top boxes to Hollywood and now into Netflix compression, right?  So they basically put their R&D team as the leader to basically keep them a step ahead of their competition. But it but on the other hand, we also Welcome, you know, talk about Tesla, where Tesla is basically doing the same thing, but they're not doing it for intellectual property like Dolby, they're not suing anybody are actually open sourcing it. But there's a reason behind it where that open sourcing allows them to basically create the, you know, what we call the Betamax VHS issue, which is making sure that there's compatibility across car manufacturers for Tesla parts and overproduction of parts that are Tesla just to increase their supply chain, right? So we ask them, Do you want to be that company, if you don't want to be that company, then there's other ways for you to basically create defensibility, it could be regulatory compliance, if your industry requires it, you can go global, you can go cross industry, you can basically create customer logins, how just how SAP and Salesforce love to basically just integrate workflows with like boots on the ground, professional services certified teams, right?  And or you can basically review your process and make sure just like Amazon, that you're creating robots to do human work in order to just basically do it cheaper than anybody else. So there's ways of doing it. And I would say that if you were in AI space, especially, you know, it's important to make sure that, you know, are you really trying to innovate through AI, because you can get a lot of researchers doing a lot of things, but that's not really going to help you create commercializable ideas. So from the get go, the leadership team needs to, you know, at least make a hedge a bet on, you know, expansion, innovation, or creating efficiencies and just, you know, decide and let the product management team know in which direction they're gonna go planning on going for the next six years. Please. Grant I love your last comment there, Paul about about getting the leadership team involved. It seems that many times in organizations, this challenge of making the change sticky, right, making it last making it resonate, where people truly change their operating model, right, they're going to start operating in a different way, their roles and responsibilities change, what is the order in which things get done all of those change, when they start moving both into this AI space, but you know, product driven just by itself, even without AI has its own set of challenges? So here's the question I have for you. As you move companies through this transformation, that's part of your business, right? You are transforming the way companies operate and bring about better outcomes. How do you make those changes sticky? Because this is a cultural change? What is it you guys have found it's effective? Paul Or it goes back to our name public bath and SOAP, right? Because the idea is, you take a bath on a regular basis hygiene is something you do regularly, right? So we ask these organization, if we give you a process where you know exactly what the product management team is going to do with you with the leadership team in order to prioritize your next upcoming features, then can you do it in a cyclical way, every quarter, you need the product manager do the exact same process of revisiting the competitors, the industry, the market, as well as like the problems that you have with your premature customers, bringing it back to the organization, asking if the strategy is still about expansion, innovation, efficiencies, identifying new ideas, clearing up the parking lot of bad ideas, etc, and eventually making the business case for the new features in order for them to make a commitment. So if we do this in a cyclical way, then the product role becomes the role of what I'd like to call the CRO, which is the chief repeating officer, because all the product manager is doing is repeating that strategy and questioning the CEO, are we still on? Are we pivoting or if we pivot?  What does that mean? And if you're doing it on a three month basis, what that allows your company to do is to make sure that the marketing and sales and support team are going along with what the engineering team is going to be delivering. So this is what I usually see most product organization where a decision has been made that the engineers are going to be building a particular feature, the sales and marketing team just waits for the engineers to be Code Complete. And once a code completes, done, they're like, Okay, now we're gonna promote it. But my question is that it's too late. Right? You really need so I always show the talk about Apple, how Apple would basically go out in front of millions of people and just say, here's the new iPhone 13. And we came up with a new version of Safari, and we're updating our iOS and we're doing a 40 Other changes. And the next thing you want considered an Apple store and you know, everything has changed. The marketing has changed the guys that the doing the conferences, and the lectures and the training are all talking about the new supplier, the new iPhone, and you ask yourself, How did how did Apple know and to organize the marketing support and sales team in that in such a way that the day that the announcement has been done? Everything is changed. So that means that it's not just the engineering team's responsibility to get to Code Complete.  It is a collective responsibility where marketing support and sales are also preparing for the upcoming releases. And and the only way you can get that type of alignment is If every three months these these parties, technology, product, CEO, CFO, sales, marketing and support can get together and make a clear decision on what they're going to do, and be honest enough of what they're not going to do, and then work collectively together on making sure that that those are being delivered and prepared in terms of the size of the promotion that we're going to do, and how are we going to outreach how's the sales collateral going to change? How is the support team going to support these upcoming features. And so everybody has work to do in that three months timeframes. So and then that if we can get to that cyclical elements, I think most companies can create momentum. And once that momentum has is generating small increments of value to the customers, then you base start start building, what I like to call reputational capital, with the clients, with the customers with the prospects. And eventually anything you release the love, and everything you release adds value. And eventually everybody loves everything you're doing as an organization become that, you know, big unicorn that people want to be. Grant Yeah, so the net of that is, I believe what you said as you operationalize it. Now there's it gets integrated into everyone's role and responsibility. It's this enterprise level cross functional alignment that gets on a campus. And the cadence is, in your case, you'd mentioned quarterly, quarterly sounds like that's been a real real gem for you. I've seen some organizations do that in shorter timeframes and some much longer. It sounds like yeah, at least quarterly is that a good nugget that you find there?  Paul Yeah, quarterly works, because you know, markets are set in a quarter way they operate in that way the you want results on a quarterly basis in terms of sales in terms of engagement, etc. But what's important is that which you know, a lot of engineering teams like to work agile or Kanban. And in a quarter in a 12 week timeframe, you could fit, I'd say, Let's see your Sprint's are three weeks, you could fit for sprint for three weeks variance, or you could fit six 2-week sprints. But I feel that if you were to shorten it, then the marketing team and sales teams supporting might not have enough time to prepare themselves for Code Complete, the engineers might be able to deliver but then the product manager gets overwhelmed because doing an industry research, competitor research etc. Every, say month and a half or two months just becomes overwhelming for them. Because things don't change enough in two months for them to be able to say, Oh, look, this competitor just came up with that. And now we need so so I think three months is enough time for the world to change for, you know, country to go to war for COVID to come over and just destroy everything. So pivot decisions are usually can pretty good to do on a on a quarterly basis.  Grant Yeah, that's good. That's, I think COVID follow that rule. Right. Hey, I have a question for you around AI. So how are you leveraging AI in the midst of all this? Can you talk about that? Paul Yeah, absolutely. So what we noticed is a lot of organizations who have products, so SaaS products, or any type of product, IoT products, etc, they're generating data. I mean, it's it comes hand in hand with software development. So all that data is going into these databases are and nobody knows what to do with them. And eventually, you know, they want to start creating business intelligence, and from business intelligence, AI initiatives have just come about, it's very normal to say, You know what, with all this data, if we were to train a machine learning module, we would be able to recommend the best flight price or the best time for somebody to buy a flight, because we have enough data to do it. So so we're not working with AI first organizations who are here we have, our entire product is going to be around AI, we're just trying to work with organizations that have enough data to warrant 1-2-3, or four AI initiatives and an ongoing investment into those. So the best example I like to talk about is the Google Gmail suggestive, replies, right, which is adding value to the user needs AI in the back, end a lot of data.  But ultimately, it's not that Gmail isn't AI product, it simply has AI features in it. So and when organizations start identifying AI or machine learning, predictive elements to their product, then we go from engineering being a deterministic function, which is if we were to deliver this feature, then customers will be able to do that to a probabilistic function where Let's experiment and see what the data can give us. And if this algorithm ends up really nailing it, we will achieve this result. But if it doesn't, then do we release it? Do we not release it?  What's the and then it gets a little bit hairy because product managers just lose themselves into it. Oftentimes, they'll release a feature and the sales team would just ask them to pull it out right away because it has not met the expectations of a customer or two. And ultimately, like what we ask product managers to do is work with leadership on really it Identifying a few key elements that are very, very important to just just baseline before you were to begin an AI project. And those are pretty simple. It's, it's really like, are you trying to create to have the machine learning module? Make a prediction? Are you or are you trying for it to make a prediction plus pass judgment? Are you trying to make it a prediction, a judgment and take action? Right? Decision automation, which is what you know, self driving cars do, will will see biker, they will make a prediction that it's a biker will make a judgment that it's indeed a biker, and we'll take action to avoid the biker, right?  But when you when you're creating ml projects, you can easily say, you know, we're just going to keep it to prediction, right? Like this machine is going to predict something and then a human will make judgment and the human will take action. There's nothing wrong in doing that. So just setting the expectations for from the get go in terms of are we basically going to predict judge or take action? That's number one. And then the next question is whatever that we decide if it's just prediction, is that worth guessing? And who doesn't have guessed today, if it's a human? Is that how accurate is that human? Let's quantify. So this way we can compare it against what this machine is going to do? What is the value the company gets out of that gas being the right gas? And what's the cost of getting it wrong? So oftentimes, we forget that humans to get it wrong to and if humans get it wrong, there are huge consequences to organizations that will overlook but as soon as machine learning does the same thing, we're ready to just cancel hundreds of $1,000 of investment.  Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we tossed it out. So the use case, I'm assuming would be you would leverage AI to say enhance a product managers abilities to either predict outcomes of some product development activities, or releases or things like that, would that be a kind of use case where he looked apply? Paul Well, not a product managers, I would say the product manager, we'd look at it software, let's take the software of a website that tries to predict your if people qualify for a mortgage loan, for example, right? So you have enough data at that point to be able to automate, what's the underwriting process that humans do of validating whether or not somebody's eligible for loan? Well, we could take all that data and just make a prediction of that person's fit for a particular loan. Now, if we were to say, well, it's just going to be the prediction, but we're not going to give this person the loan, we're still going to ask a human being to pass judgment that that prediction was the correct one, and then take action to give or not give him a loan.  So let's say that's the machine learning module, we're going to add to our to our feature. Now, the question is how this underwriting department in the past 10 years, how often did they really screw up that, you know, and issued loans to people that were that couldn't pay their loan, right? And realize it's 40%? Were like, Wow, 40%? Could this machine learning be as accurate as damn plus one, right? And, and then we ended up realizing that yeah, this, whatever we delivered is 33% accurate, and not 40% plus one accurate now is it still worth putting out there we spent $100,000 into it, and then you know, then it's up to the product manager to basically be able to put this thing in place and say, but look, you know, underwriting is a nine to five job currently in our business, and it cost us this much money.  On the other hand, if there's this machine learning is 33% accurate, but it's actually doing it 24/7 365 days a year, and it's only going to improve from 33 to 40. And if it goes above 40, then we the savings for our organization are this much money. So it is really the product managers job to be able to not only talking about the business KPIs, but also the what the AI machine learning KPIs we need to achieve and what the impact of that would be if we get it right. And I think that the biggest issue we have as product managers in the AI space is if we were to go and do this all there everything that we need to create AI, like the day data ops, selecting the data, sourcing it, synthesizing it, cleaning it, etc. The model ops, which, you know, comes down to multiple algorithms, training those algorithms, evaluating tuning them, and then the operationalization. If you do all these steps, and you get to 80 to 20% accuracy, and your target is at 70% accuracy, right? What do you do with it?  Because you had to do all this work anyways, it cost you tons of money and time. And so how do we get the leadership team to say this AI initiative has enough value for us that we're willing to live with the consequences of it getting it wrong, or we're willing to actually have it supported by human for the next six months to a year until we basically trains itself and gets better? So it's how do you get this openness from from from a leadership team? Because what I've often find delivering AI projects is every time you deliver an AI project, and it's misunderstood in terms of its output, and everybody thinks it has to be 100% accurate, the second and goes wrong. It's the political drama that you have to go through in order to keep it alive. is just it's just overwhelming, right? So miners will set those expectations up front and tool, the product managers with the right arguments to make sure that they the expectations are set correctly. Grant Have you ever worked with or heard of the company called digital.ai? Are your familiar with them? digital.ai, maybe not. Anyway, they have been working in a similar space as you but not so much of the product management level. What they're doing, though, is they're, they're looking to apply AI to the whole delivery function. So so you can you see, the product manager is above this, and is making sort of these KPIs and other estimate activities and the planning out. But then there are all these functions under there that of course, do the delivery of the product. And so they're working on the tooling spectrum, I think they acquired I think, was five different companies like in the last nine months, that they're integrating these and then building this AI seam or layer across that data across delivery with that purpose and intent to do that predictive not not only backwards analysis activities around AI, but predictive, which is what's the probabilities, I might run into the problem, or some problem with this particular release, right, of this product, right, that we're about to send out, now might be an interesting group for you to get connected with. Paul Yeah, I know, it's funny, because we're there. There's a local company here in Montreal that does the same thing. It's really about like data scientists are really expensive, and they're really hard to find, and there's a shortage of them. So, you know, the lot of organizations are trying to find like a self serve AI solution where you can build your AI using their AI. But ultimately, what they're doing is taking your data and delivering 123 or 10 versions of the machine learning module, it's up to you basically, judge which one is going to work the best for you, but they actually operationalize it, put it out there for you, and really automate the whole thing. So this way, you're not dependent on humans, I love that I really love that I think your organization should have one of those. But that still means that there's a dependency from the for the product manager to know that it's, it's data, like end to end, be able to clean it be able to tag it and then feed it to the to these machines, right? And I think that part is also misunderstood. Because Do we have enough data? Is there bias in the data and all that needs to be understood and figure it out? Because, you know, you could say like, Hey, we put it to this big machine. And we ended up with a 20% accuracy on the best ml that it out, put it, but that's still not good enough? Because we're trying, we're aiming for 87? And what does it mean? What do we need to do to basically get it to 87? We're gonna have to review the data bringing some third party data, you know, and it's, and that's, that costs a lot as well. So, yeah, Grant Do you think AutoML solutions play a role here like, Aible, I don't know if you're familiar with that platform, you know, that the goal is to try to reduce the amount of dependency that's needed on the data science. Scientists themselves, right. And but it's, it's still doesn't remove all of the data cleansing part, but it does help take care of some of the certainly the low level data science requirements, you think you think that's a viable solution in this area?  Paul I think it is. I mean, it's, you know, we went from rule based AI, where data scientists had to do good old fashioned AI, which was a feature engineering, right? Putting the rules themselves to machine learning AI, where, you know, we had to train the data that we needed, were so dependent on these data scientists. And now we're getting to v3, where we have these tools. And you know, there's a data dependency, but there, they also don't have such a high dependency on data scientists are and you know, figuring our algorithms and etc, we could just basically have these prepackaged algorithms that could basically output us any types of solution. What I tend to like, I've seen this a lot in a lot of companies. There's some companies that are very, very industry specific, right? So they're providing AI for E-commerce to be able to provide better search with predictive elements based on the person's browsing history. I mean, I, I'm not sure, but the ones that are providing every ML imaginable, so you could use it for supply chain, or you could use it for something else. I know it's dependent on data. But again, these algorithms, you can't have all the algorithms for all scenarios.  Even if it's supply chain, some person has perishables and there's ordering bananas and the other person is ordering, I don't know water coolers, and those, those don't have the same rules, right. You know, so it's, it's important to just, I think that maybe in the coming years, we'll have a lot of companies that are really going cross industry, just like we're in E-commerce, the other ones that are med tech, the other ones are, etcetera, the tools are the same. I mean, more or less the same, the customers are gonna get used to basically having these UI is that I'll give you your input the data in and then these emails come out, and then you choose which one and they give you probability you can retrain them and all that stuff. And I think that it's just going to get to a point where we're going to have these product managers who are now responsible of kind of training the Machine Learning Module themselves, you know if it's going to be the product manager, or if it's going to be some other function, where I think it does definitely fit inside the product managers? Grant Well I do is, I think it's because they still need to have what we would call the domain knowledge and in this domain of building products, yeah, AI, at least at least in this phase of the life of AI, where we are today for the foreseeable future. I think the product manager needs to be involved with that. Sure. So. Paul It comes down to intuition, right, somebody has to have like to build that intuition about what a model is relying on when making a judgment. And I think that, you know, with product managers, the closest one really, maybe in bigger organizations, it's the person who's managing analytics and data, but in smaller startup organization, I can definitely see the product manager putting that  Grant Yeah, absolutely. Paul, I really appreciate you taking the time. Here today on this been fascinating conversation. Any last comments you want to share? Paul We have tons of articles that talk about so we're very open source as an organization. So if you want to learn more about this, we have about 70 articles on our website. Just go to BainPublic.com and just click on "Articles" and you could just, you know, self serve and basically improve as a product manager in the AI space. Grant Excellent, fascinating, love, love the conversation, your insight and the vision where you guys are taking this I think you're gonna continue to disrupt everyone. Thanks for joining another episode of ClickAI Radio and until next time, check out BainPublic.com. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

In this episode, I talk with the CEO and founder of an organization that has been applying AI to help them develop products. Will AI help you develop your products faster? Come and see. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So today I have this opportunity to speak with one of those brains out there in the market that's being disruptive, right? They're making changes in the industry in terms of not only the problems are solving, but it's the way in which they're solving the problems using AI very fascinating. Anyway, everyone, please welcome Paul Ortchanian here to the show. Paul Hi, nice. Nice, nice of you, happy to be here on the show.  Grant Absolutely. It's very good to have you here today. When I was first introduced to you. And I started to review your material what it is that your organization has put together as fascinated with the approach because I have a product development background and in in the software world. AI was late comer to that right meaning over generations when I saw the approach that you're taking to that I'm interested to dig more into that. But before we do that big reveal, could you maybe step back and talk about the beginning your journey? What got you on this route? And this map, both in terms of product development, and technology and AI itself? Paul Yeah, absolutely. So I started out as an engineer, headed down to San Francisco in the early 2000s. And, and I was more of a thinker than an actual engineer, or just be the type of guy who would figure things out by themselves. But if you were to ask me to really do things that the real things engineers do, you know, creativity was there, but not the solutioning. So being in San Francisco was a humbling experience, I guess, Silicon Valley, you get to see some really, really good engineers. So I had to make a shift in my career. And since I had a passion for user experience, the business aspect, product management was a great fit a function I didn't really understand. And I got to learn and respect, and did that for about 10 years.  In the mid 2000s, and 10s, I basically moved back to Montreal for family reasons and cost of living, of course in San Francisco. And I started a company called Bank Biddick, which in French stands for public bath. And the idea is that most what I realized in Canada was that people here in accelerators, incubators and, and startups just didn't understand what product management was. So they didn't really understand what they do and how they do it. And I saw a lot of organizations being led by the marketing teams, or the sales team and being very service oriented and not really product LED.  So basically, it basically stands for public bath, which means every quarter, you want to basically apply some hygiene to your roadmap, you have a galaxy of ideas, why not go out there and just, you know, take the good ones and remove the old ones and get rid of the dirt. And we started with that premise. And we put we said, well, what does a product manager do on a on a quarterly basis? Because a lot of the material you'll read out there really talks about, you know what product managers should do in terms of personas and understanding the customer's data and this and that, but nobody really tells you which order you should do it. Right. If that was my initial struggle as a product manager, do you try to do it all in the same day and then you realize that there's not enough time? So the question is like in a one quarter 12 week cycle, as my first three weeks should be about understanding the market shifts the industry, the product competitors and and the users and then maybe in the next three weeks working with leadership on making sure that there is no pivots in the organization or there are some some major strategic changes and then going into analyzing the DIS parking lot of ideas and figuring out which ones are short term and re and making business cases in order to present them for, for the company to make a decision on What to do next on the roadmap.  So there is a process and we just call that process SOAP, which goes in line with our public bath theme. So the idea was like, let's let's give product managers SOAP to basically wash their roadmap on a quarterly basis. And, and that's what being public does. And we work with over 40 organizations today so far, on really implementing this product LEDs process within their organizations, we work with their leaders on identifying a product manager within the organization and making sure that marketing support sales, the CFO CEO really understand how to engage with them what to expect from them, and how product manager can add value to to the organization. And so they just doesn't become, you know, this grace towards them as many features as you can pump out, right. Grant Oh, boy, yeah. Which, which is constant problem. The other thing that I've noticed, and I'm wondering if, and I'm sure that your SOAP methodology addresses this, it's the problem of shifting an organization in terams of their funding model, right? They'll come from sort of these project centric or service centric funding styles, and then you've got to help them through that shift to a different funding model round products. You guys address that as well. Paul Yeah, we address that a lot. One of the things we always tell them is if you are a service professional services firm, and you know, I have no issues basically calling them that. If and I asked them like do you quantify staff utilization in percentages, like 70% of our engineers are being billed? Right? Do we basically look at the sales team? How many new deals do they have in terms of pipeline? Are we looking at on time delivery across those, so double use that to serve the sales team closed? And what is our time and technical staff attrition, that usually tends to be identifiers of you being a service firm? And we often ask them, well, let's let's make the shift, when we identify one little initiative that you have that you want to productize because they all these service firms, really all they want is recurring revenue, then the service is tough, right?  That you constantly have to bring in new clients. So this recurring revenue, the path to recurring revenue is, you know, being able to say, Okay, I'm going to take two engineers, one sales person, one marketing person, one support person, and a product manager. And those guys collectively will cost me a million dollars a year, and I'm going to expect them to basically bring me $3 million in recurring revenue. That means that they're, they're no longer going to be evaluated on staff utilization, they're no longer going to be evaluating the number of deals they're bringing in. And they're, they're really going to be evaluated on how are they releasing features? Are they creating value for those features? are we increasing the number of paid customers? And are we basically, you know, staying abreast in terms of competitors and market industry changes.  And so that's a complete paradigm shift. And that transition takes a while. But the first seed is really being able to say, can you create an entity within your organization where the CFO accepts that those engineers are dedicated and no longer being, you know, reviewed in terms of their utilization rate in terms of their know how much they're billing to customers? Once they do that shift in the recipe is pretty easy to do. Grant Yeah. So it's become easy. So the thing to I've seen and experienced with, with product and product development is the relationship of innovation to product development. And so I see some groups will take innovation, and they'll move that as some separate activity or function in the organization, whereas others will have that innate within the product team itself. What have you found effective? And does self addressed that? Paul Yeah, I mean, we always ask them the question of what how are you going to defend yourself against the competition with the VCs that have to call their moat, right? And that defensibility could be innovation, it could also be your global footprint, or, you know, it could be how you operationalize your supply chain make things really, really cheap, right? Every company can have a different strategy. And we really ask them from the get go. We call this playing the strategy, we'll give them like eight potential ways a company can, you know, find strategies to differentiate themselves? And the first one is first the market?  And the question is, it's not about you being first to market today. But do you want to outpace your curlier closest rivals on a regular basis? And if so, you know, you need an r&d team and innovation team who is basically going to be pumping out commercializable features or r&d work. And then we always give him the two examples, the example of Dolby Dolby being completely analog in the 70s, but really banking on their r&d team to bring him to the digital age and from the digital age to set top boxes to Hollywood and now into Netflix compression, right?  So they basically put their R&D team as the leader to basically keep them a step ahead of their competition. But it but on the other hand, we also Welcome, you know, talk about Tesla, where Tesla is basically doing the same thing, but they're not doing it for intellectual property like Dolby, they're not suing anybody are actually open sourcing it. But there's a reason behind it where that open sourcing allows them to basically create the, you know, what we call the Betamax VHS issue, which is making sure that there's compatibility across car manufacturers for Tesla parts and overproduction of parts that are Tesla just to increase their supply chain, right? So we ask them, Do you want to be that company, if you don't want to be that company, then there's other ways for you to basically create defensibility, it could be regulatory compliance, if your industry requires it, you can go global, you can go cross industry, you can basically create customer logins, how just how SAP and Salesforce love to basically just integrate workflows with like boots on the ground, professional services certified teams, right?  And or you can basically review your process and make sure just like Amazon, that you're creating robots to do human work in order to just basically do it cheaper than anybody else. So there's ways of doing it. And I would say that if you were in AI space, especially, you know, it's important to make sure that, you know, are you really trying to innovate through AI, because you can get a lot of researchers doing a lot of things, but that's not really going to help you create commercializable ideas. So from the get go, the leadership team needs to, you know, at least make a hedge a bet on, you know, expansion, innovation, or creating efficiencies and just, you know, decide and let the product management team know in which direction they're gonna go planning on going for the next six years. Please. Grant I love your last comment there, Paul about about getting the leadership team involved. It seems that many times in organizations, this challenge of making the change sticky, right, making it last making it resonate, where people truly change their operating model, right, they're going to start operating in a different way, their roles and responsibilities change, what is the order in which things get done all of those change, when they start moving both into this AI space, but you know, product driven just by itself, even without AI has its own set of challenges? So here's the question I have for you. As you move companies through this transformation, that's part of your business, right? You are transforming the way companies operate and bring about better outcomes. How do you make those changes sticky? Because this is a cultural change? What is it you guys have found it's effective? Paul Or it goes back to our name public bath and SOAP, right? Because the idea is, you take a bath on a regular basis hygiene is something you do regularly, right? So we ask these organization, if we give you a process where you know exactly what the product management team is going to do with you with the leadership team in order to prioritize your next upcoming features, then can you do it in a cyclical way, every quarter, you need the product manager do the exact same process of revisiting the competitors, the industry, the market, as well as like the problems that you have with your premature customers, bringing it back to the organization, asking if the strategy is still about expansion, innovation, efficiencies, identifying new ideas, clearing up the parking lot of bad ideas, etc, and eventually making the business case for the new features in order for them to make a commitment. So if we do this in a cyclical way, then the product role becomes the role of what I'd like to call the CRO, which is the chief repeating officer, because all the product manager is doing is repeating that strategy and questioning the CEO, are we still on? Are we pivoting or if we pivot?  What does that mean? And if you're doing it on a three month basis, what that allows your company to do is to make sure that the marketing and sales and support team are going along with what the engineering team is going to be delivering. So this is what I usually see most product organization where a decision has been made that the engineers are going to be building a particular feature, the sales and marketing team just waits for the engineers to be Code Complete. And once a code completes, done, they're like, Okay, now we're gonna promote it. But my question is that it's too late. Right? You really need so I always show the talk about Apple, how Apple would basically go out in front of millions of people and just say, here's the new iPhone 13. And we came up with a new version of Safari, and we're updating our iOS and we're doing a 40 Other changes. And the next thing you want considered an Apple store and you know, everything has changed. The marketing has changed the guys that the doing the conferences, and the lectures and the training are all talking about the new supplier, the new iPhone, and you ask yourself, How did how did Apple know and to organize the marketing support and sales team in that in such a way that the day that the announcement has been done? Everything is changed. So that means that it's not just the engineering team's responsibility to get to Code Complete.  It is a collective responsibility where marketing support and sales are also preparing for the upcoming releases. And and the only way you can get that type of alignment is If every three months these these parties, technology, product, CEO, CFO, sales, marketing and support can get together and make a clear decision on what they're going to do, and be honest enough of what they're not going to do, and then work collectively together on making sure that that those are being delivered and prepared in terms of the size of the promotion that we're going to do, and how are we going to outreach how's the sales collateral going to change? How is the support team going to support these upcoming features. And so everybody has work to do in that three months timeframes. So and then that if we can get to that cyclical elements, I think most companies can create momentum. And once that momentum has is generating small increments of value to the customers, then you base start start building, what I like to call reputational capital, with the clients, with the customers with the prospects. And eventually anything you release the love, and everything you release adds value. And eventually everybody loves everything you're doing as an organization become that, you know, big unicorn that people want to be. Grant Yeah, so the net of that is, I believe what you said as you operationalize it. Now there's it gets integrated into everyone's role and responsibility. It's this enterprise level cross functional alignment that gets on a campus. And the cadence is, in your case, you'd mentioned quarterly, quarterly sounds like that's been a real real gem for you. I've seen some organizations do that in shorter timeframes and some much longer. It sounds like yeah, at least quarterly is that a good nugget that you find there?  Paul Yeah, quarterly works, because you know, markets are set in a quarter way they operate in that way the you want results on a quarterly basis in terms of sales in terms of engagement, etc. But what's important is that which you know, a lot of engineering teams like to work agile or Kanban. And in a quarter in a 12 week timeframe, you could fit, I'd say, Let's see your Sprint's are three weeks, you could fit for sprint for three weeks variance, or you could fit six 2-week sprints. But I feel that if you were to shorten it, then the marketing team and sales teams supporting might not have enough time to prepare themselves for Code Complete, the engineers might be able to deliver but then the product manager gets overwhelmed because doing an industry research, competitor research etc. Every, say month and a half or two months just becomes overwhelming for them. Because things don't change enough in two months for them to be able to say, Oh, look, this competitor just came up with that. And now we need so so I think three months is enough time for the world to change for, you know, country to go to war for COVID to come over and just destroy everything. So pivot decisions are usually can pretty good to do on a on a quarterly basis.  Grant Yeah, that's good. That's, I think COVID follow that rule. Right. Hey, I have a question for you around AI. So how are you leveraging AI in the midst of all this? Can you talk about that? Paul Yeah, absolutely. So what we noticed is a lot of organizations who have products, so SaaS products, or any type of product, IoT products, etc, they're generating data. I mean, it's it comes hand in hand with software development. So all that data is going into these databases are and nobody knows what to do with them. And eventually, you know, they want to start creating business intelligence, and from business intelligence, AI initiatives have just come about, it's very normal to say, You know what, with all this data, if we were to train a machine learning module, we would be able to recommend the best flight price or the best time for somebody to buy a flight, because we have enough data to do it. So so we're not working with AI first organizations who are here we have, our entire product is going to be around AI, we're just trying to work with organizations that have enough data to warrant 1-2-3, or four AI initiatives and an ongoing investment into those. So the best example I like to talk about is the Google Gmail suggestive, replies, right, which is adding value to the user needs AI in the back, end a lot of data.  But ultimately, it's not that Gmail isn't AI product, it simply has AI features in it. So and when organizations start identifying AI or machine learning, predictive elements to their product, then we go from engineering being a deterministic function, which is if we were to deliver this feature, then customers will be able to do that to a probabilistic function where Let's experiment and see what the data can give us. And if this algorithm ends up really nailing it, we will achieve this result. But if it doesn't, then do we release it? Do we not release it?  What's the and then it gets a little bit hairy because product managers just lose themselves into it. Oftentimes, they'll release a feature and the sales team would just ask them to pull it out right away because it has not met the expectations of a customer or two. And ultimately, like what we ask product managers to do is work with leadership on really it Identifying a few key elements that are very, very important to just just baseline before you were to begin an AI project. And those are pretty simple. It's, it's really like, are you trying to create to have the machine learning module? Make a prediction? Are you or are you trying for it to make a prediction plus pass judgment? Are you trying to make it a prediction, a judgment and take action? Right? Decision automation, which is what you know, self driving cars do, will will see biker, they will make a prediction that it's a biker will make a judgment that it's indeed a biker, and we'll take action to avoid the biker, right?  But when you when you're creating ml projects, you can easily say, you know, we're just going to keep it to prediction, right? Like this machine is going to predict something and then a human will make judgment and the human will take action. There's nothing wrong in doing that. So just setting the expectations for from the get go in terms of are we basically going to predict judge or take action? That's number one. And then the next question is whatever that we decide if it's just prediction, is that worth guessing? And who doesn't have guessed today, if it's a human? Is that how accurate is that human? Let's quantify. So this way we can compare it against what this machine is going to do? What is the value the company gets out of that gas being the right gas? And what's the cost of getting it wrong? So oftentimes, we forget that humans to get it wrong to and if humans get it wrong, there are huge consequences to organizations that will overlook but as soon as machine learning does the same thing, we're ready to just cancel hundreds of $1,000 of investment.  Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we tossed it out. So the use case, I'm assuming would be you would leverage AI to say enhance a product managers abilities to either predict outcomes of some product development activities, or releases or things like that, would that be a kind of use case where he looked apply? Paul Well, not a product managers, I would say the product manager, we'd look at it software, let's take the software of a website that tries to predict your if people qualify for a mortgage loan, for example, right? So you have enough data at that point to be able to automate, what's the underwriting process that humans do of validating whether or not somebody's eligible for loan? Well, we could take all that data and just make a prediction of that person's fit for a particular loan. Now, if we were to say, well, it's just going to be the prediction, but we're not going to give this person the loan, we're still going to ask a human being to pass judgment that that prediction was the correct one, and then take action to give or not give him a loan.  So let's say that's the machine learning module, we're going to add to our to our feature. Now, the question is how this underwriting department in the past 10 years, how often did they really screw up that, you know, and issued loans to people that were that couldn't pay their loan, right? And realize it's 40%? Were like, Wow, 40%? Could this machine learning be as accurate as damn plus one, right? And, and then we ended up realizing that yeah, this, whatever we delivered is 33% accurate, and not 40% plus one accurate now is it still worth putting out there we spent $100,000 into it, and then you know, then it's up to the product manager to basically be able to put this thing in place and say, but look, you know, underwriting is a nine to five job currently in our business, and it cost us this much money.  On the other hand, if there's this machine learning is 33% accurate, but it's actually doing it 24/7 365 days a year, and it's only going to improve from 33 to 40. And if it goes above 40, then we the savings for our organization are this much money. So it is really the product managers job to be able to not only talking about the business KPIs, but also the what the AI machine learning KPIs we need to achieve and what the impact of that would be if we get it right. And I think that the biggest issue we have as product managers in the AI space is if we were to go and do this all there everything that we need to create AI, like the day data ops, selecting the data, sourcing it, synthesizing it, cleaning it, etc. The model ops, which, you know, comes down to multiple algorithms, training those algorithms, evaluating tuning them, and then the operationalization. If you do all these steps, and you get to 80 to 20% accuracy, and your target is at 70% accuracy, right? What do you do with it?  Because you had to do all this work anyways, it cost you tons of money and time. And so how do we get the leadership team to say this AI initiative has enough value for us that we're willing to live with the consequences of it getting it wrong, or we're willing to actually have it supported by human for the next six months to a year until we basically trains itself and gets better? So it's how do you get this openness from from from a leadership team? Because what I've often find delivering AI projects is every time you deliver an AI project, and it's misunderstood in terms of its output, and everybody thinks it has to be 100% accurate, the second and goes wrong. It's the political drama that you have to go through in order to keep it alive. is just it's just overwhelming, right? So miners will set those expectations up front and tool, the product managers with the right arguments to make sure that they the expectations are set correctly. Grant Have you ever worked with or heard of the company called digital.ai? Are your familiar with them? digital.ai, maybe not. Anyway, they have been working in a similar space as you but not so much of the product management level. What they're doing, though, is they're, they're looking to apply AI to the whole delivery function. So so you can you see, the product manager is above this, and is making sort of these KPIs and other estimate activities and the planning out. But then there are all these functions under there that of course, do the delivery of the product. And so they're working on the tooling spectrum, I think they acquired I think, was five different companies like in the last nine months, that they're integrating these and then building this AI seam or layer across that data across delivery with that purpose and intent to do that predictive not not only backwards analysis activities around AI, but predictive, which is what's the probabilities, I might run into the problem, or some problem with this particular release, right, of this product, right, that we're about to send out, now might be an interesting group for you to get connected with. Paul Yeah, I know, it's funny, because we're there. There's a local company here in Montreal that does the same thing. It's really about like data scientists are really expensive, and they're really hard to find, and there's a shortage of them. So, you know, the lot of organizations are trying to find like a self serve AI solution where you can build your AI using their AI. But ultimately, what they're doing is taking your data and delivering 123 or 10 versions of the machine learning module, it's up to you basically, judge which one is going to work the best for you, but they actually operationalize it, put it out there for you, and really automate the whole thing. So this way, you're not dependent on humans, I love that I really love that I think your organization should have one of those. But that still means that there's a dependency from the for the product manager to know that it's, it's data, like end to end, be able to clean it be able to tag it and then feed it to the to these machines, right? And I think that part is also misunderstood. Because Do we have enough data? Is there bias in the data and all that needs to be understood and figure it out? Because, you know, you could say like, Hey, we put it to this big machine. And we ended up with a 20% accuracy on the best ml that it out, put it, but that's still not good enough? Because we're trying, we're aiming for 87? And what does it mean? What do we need to do to basically get it to 87? We're gonna have to review the data bringing some third party data, you know, and it's, and that's, that costs a lot as well. So, yeah, Grant Do you think AutoML solutions play a role here like, Aible, I don't know if you're familiar with that platform, you know, that the goal is to try to reduce the amount of dependency that's needed on the data science. Scientists themselves, right. And but it's, it's still doesn't remove all of the data cleansing part, but it does help take care of some of the certainly the low level data science requirements, you think you think that's a viable solution in this area?  Paul I think it is. I mean, it's, you know, we went from rule based AI, where data scientists had to do good old fashioned AI, which was a feature engineering, right? Putting the rules themselves to machine learning AI, where, you know, we had to train the data that we needed, were so dependent on these data scientists. And now we're getting to v3, where we have these tools. And you know, there's a data dependency, but there, they also don't have such a high dependency on data scientists are and you know, figuring our algorithms and etc, we could just basically have these prepackaged algorithms that could basically output us any types of solution. What I tend to like, I've seen this a lot in a lot of companies. There's some companies that are very, very industry specific, right? So they're providing AI for E-commerce to be able to provide better search with predictive elements based on the person's browsing history. I mean, I, I'm not sure, but the ones that are providing every ML imaginable, so you could use it for supply chain, or you could use it for something else. I know it's dependent on data. But again, these algorithms, you can't have all the algorithms for all scenarios.  Even if it's supply chain, some person has perishables and there's ordering bananas and the other person is ordering, I don't know water coolers, and those, those don't have the same rules, right. You know, so it's, it's important to just, I think that maybe in the coming years, we'll have a lot of companies that are really going cross industry, just like we're in E-commerce, the other ones that are med tech, the other ones are, etcetera, the tools are the same. I mean, more or less the same, the customers are gonna get used to basically having these UI is that I'll give you your input the data in and then these emails come out, and then you choose which one and they give you probability you can retrain them and all that stuff. And I think that it's just going to get to a point where we're going to have these product managers who are now responsible of kind of training the Machine Learning Module themselves, you know if it's going to be the product manager, or if it's going to be some other function, where I think it does definitely fit inside the product managers? Grant Well I do is, I think it's because they still need to have what we would call the domain knowledge and in this domain of building products, yeah, AI, at least at least in this phase of the life of AI, where we are today for the foreseeable future. I think the product manager needs to be involved with that. Sure. So. Paul It comes down to intuition, right, somebody has to have like to build that intuition about what a model is relying on when making a judgment. And I think that, you know, with product managers, the closest one really, maybe in bigger organizations, it's the person who's managing analytics and data, but in smaller startup organization, I can definitely see the product manager putting that  Grant Yeah, absolutely. Paul, I really appreciate you taking the time. Here today on this been fascinating conversation. Any last comments you want to share? Paul We have tons of articles that talk about so we're very open source as an organization. So if you want to learn more about this, we have about 70 articles on our website. Just go to BainPublic.com and just click on "Articles" and you could just, you know, self serve and basically improve as a product manager in the AI space. Grant Excellent, fascinating, love, love the conversation, your insight and the vision where you guys are taking this I think you're gonna continue to disrupt everyone. Thanks for joining another episode of ClickAI Radio and until next time, check out BainPublic.com. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

Allen: All right, passive traders, we have a treat in store for you today. Many of you know about the option continuum, which is basically, you know, our levels of breakdown of where you are as an options trader, you start with level one, you don't know anything. And then you get to level 10, maybe if you want to, which is option professional. And basically a professional means that you are so good at trading options, that you are now trading and managing other people's money and you're getting paid for it. Many of you have reached out to us in the past and said, Hey, I want more information on that. And we haven't really put it out there because I am not doing it myself. Right now, as a professional, I don't I'm not measuring anybody else's money. And so, you know, I'm not the best person to talk to about that. But we keep getting people and be like, hey, you know, I want to learn, I want to learn. So one of our members, Paul Ashcraft, has volunteered to join us today. And I want to thank you, Paul, for coming and helping out. A few a couple of months ago, I think in one of our groups, I think it was a passive group, where I had put in there like, Hey, I'm thinking about starting a hedge fund. So I'm thinking about going professional, right? And he reached out and said, hey, you know, I'm already doing it if you want to, if you want to talk and I can answer your question. So we had an amazing conversation, I learned a lot. And I was like, You know what, this would be really helpful for everybody else. So I asked Paul, hey, could you do it again? And we can record it this time? It was like, Yeah, sure, no foul. And so he's here, Paul, thank you. Thank you for being on thank you for taking the time to do this. Paul: Thank you very much. Pleasure. Allen: And you're Paul is a member of our of a lot of our programs. So passive trading formula, the blank check, and now the credit spread mastery as well. So you know, it's good to see that, hey, if you're a money manager, then you're continuously getting learning and learning new things to help out your students, or your clients, I guess. So. Well, tell me, why did you get into management? What was it that drawed you through that? Paul: Well, I sort of got tricked into it. I had a, I'm a CPA by trade, and I had a client who was becoming an NFL player agent. And he trusted me and wanted me to help him manage his people's NFL players money. So I started the licensing process at that time. And so that sort of tricked me into it. So that sort of fell apart. And then he wasn't getting more leads for what he was doing. So I basically continued since then, so Allen: Okay, so were you already trading on your own? Or before that? Or did you learn as you want to? Paul: Yeah, I've been trading, you know, for quite a while. Off and on. So yeah, I've had some experience of trading. Allen: Okay. So you are comfortable, you could do it? Paul: I knew I needed to learn, I do need to learn some more. But yeah, I feel like I could I knew enough about the world to do that. Allen: Okay. And so you are known as what is a RIA, a registered independent advisor? Paul: Right. That's correct. Allen: So that's one of the ways of managing money. What exactly is an RIA? Paul: It's basically a firm that is licensed by the FINRA basically, and you are licensed to where you can manage other people's money. Allen: And all RIAs, are fiduciaries, right? Paul: That's correct. Yeah.  Allen: Right. Because a lot of people don't know the difference between a fiduciary and a non fiduciary. And so a fiduciary, if you don't know you are legally bound to do what's in the best interest of the client. A lot of these other companies that people think about when they're talking about money management, or Wealth Advisors, retirement advisors, all these words that they use, they have no license, or maybe they do have a license, but they're not a fiduciary. So they're not required to do what's best for the client. And so they can sell you a product that they get the highest commission on, even if it's not really a good thing, a good fit for you. So that's why..  Paul: Yeah one of the ways I deal with that fiduciary criteria is basically whatever I do for other people, I do for myself. Allen: Okay. Okay, interesting. So, what does it take to open an RIA? Paul: Well, if you want to legal structure and need, like, I have an LLC got a creative for that. And I have had to pass a serious 65 test, which you'd like an SEC test, and get to come up some kind of agreement you have with your clients that's approved by FINRA to sign them on as clients. Those are the basics you have to do. Allen: Okay, and like how long did it take you to go through all that? Remember? Paul: I'm gonna say, basically of six to nine months. Allen: Okay, and how long have you been? How long have you been an RIA? Paul: Since 2014, so roughly eight years. Allen: Awesome. Yep. Cool. And for those of you, you know, I'm going to repeat it later on, but Paul's business website is Businessadvisors.Pro. So if you ever or if you need a good adviser, you know, please reach out to Paul. And I'll repeat at the end, and we'll put it in the show notes. I just wanted to get that out there. Paul: And that's mainly my CPA website, just so you know. Allen: Very cool. BusinessAdvisors.Pro, there you go.  Paul: And then sort has been done about creating my Wealth Advisors website, because you're so under scrutiny when you were you advertise things, so I just sort of steered away from that a little bit. Allen: Interesting. Okay. So I guess there's certain things you can say and certain things you cannot say. Paul: Basically, anything you put out there to the public, you have to like, monitor it for five years, and they can question you about it anytime. So I just figured one way to get around that is just not to do it. Allen: Okay. So then that leads me to my next question, like, how do you find clients if you're not advertising? Paul: Well, you know, I have CPA clients, probably like half the clients, I have my Wealth Advisors from CPA side. Other thing is like, from friends, and referrals from other people who use me. Allen: Okay. So it takes time to build all that up?  Paul: Yes, yes. And I'm currently working on more. More advertising. Allen: Okay. All right. So the advertising is possible. It's not it's not like it's restricted. But you have to be careful of what you do and how you do it. Paul: Yes, yes, yeah. Allen: Now, what are your clients looking for? Because, you know, if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, you know, I'm looking to make more money, obviously, but they have so many, so many choices. They can do it themselves, it could go to like, like Fidelity and have them do it. They could go to they're really rich, they can have their own private like, you know, Bank of America, has their own private wealth, people. So when they come to you, what do they tell you? Like? What are they looking for in terms of an advisor? Paul: Well, I mean, I had someone recently come to me, and, you know, we're signing them up, or things that I'd say we, if we look, if we're here a year later, what do you want to what your criteria are saying, I did a good job. And he wanted a 10% return, which has been difficult in this market. But that's, that's one thing. Another thing? I you know, most advisors out there, these basically are, they're buying hold people, I mean, and they bid six things in a bucket, and don't look at it too often. So I, I basically say that I'm actively working in their account, and I'm not sure I'm going to just put it there and not be looking at it. Allen: So obviously, you probably tell them about your options experience and the different types of strategies you use. Paul: Yeah, a lot of times just the casual person warnings on the manager money that, that if I tried to tell them all that it would go way over their head. Because, you know, it took me like two years talking about options to actually start doing it myself, you know, so I'm trying to be a little bit of conscientious about what they can and cannot handle information wise. I'll be glad to talk about it, they want to, but I'm not gonna write too much about it. Allen: And I bet that would that would set you apart, right? You know, it's like, hey, you know, we can do plain vanilla stuff. Or we can do if you're a little bit more aggressive than we can do this, and this and this. And then if it goes over there, that's fine. But as long as they're like, whoa, this guy knows. Paul: Yeah, definitely. That's certainly part because like, my CPA, well, I deal with investment advisors. And like, no one, no one that I know of is actually managing costs. I mean, like, you know, every week or things like that, Allen: yeah, yeah, they just don't I mean, part of it is they have, depending on where they are some of these guys that I know, they have broker dealers, and the broker basically tells them what they can do and what they can't do. And trading is like, No, you're not doing it. They just they can't, they're not allowed. And so, you know, we get we get clients that are financial advisors, they come in, they're like, oh, yeah, I'm a financial advisor, like, oh, they shouldn't, you know, all this stuff. And they're like, oh, I don't do any of this for my son. I don't know, they don't even teach us this stuff. In financial advisors. Cool. So it's like, once I call again, I'm like, Oh, my God. Paul: Yeah, most of them are just like, call themselves people. And it is this, they don't necessarily know that much about investing. It's more about they have relationships with people, and they train their people to be accustomed to five to 7% returns. So so don't want you to do that as that's, you know, not a hallmark. Allen: Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, when I go to if I go to a dinner party, or whatever, and, you know, always comes up. So what do you do? It's like, well, I teach people how to do this. And the first they're like, really, is that, you know, what do you what do you mean? And then we tell them a little bit about it, and they go, Yeah, you know, we try to aim, you know, for 5% a month, and they're like, what a month. Really? Oh, wow, I gotta learn about that. And then, you know, you explain a little bit and then they're, like, bored and then they go talk to somebody else. Because, you know, it's cool. They want, they want it. They just want to do the work. So that's cool. Now as an advisor, how do you How do you charge? Like, what do you charge? How do you do it? Paul: So I have what's called a serious 65 license. So I'm able to charge a percentage of what assets are under management. Okay, so the basic generic, charged with as generally 1% of assets under management. Okay, that if I'm doing more as a some different strategies, things like that, I'm probably going to up the field more because it's, it is active trading. Allen: It takes more time. Yeah, yeah. Because I remember way back when I had a guy at America ice, and he was my advisor. And yeah, he would charge a minimum of 1% on assets every year. Every time you put money, you gave him money, they would take 5% off the top. And then every every mutual fund and every index fund or whatever that they put you in. And most of them were, you know, Ameriprise products. Each of those things would have a separate fee every year. So I mean, I got dealing left and right. I didn't know what I was doing. At the time, I was thinking I am going to you know, I'm smart. I got an advisor. But yeah, he was the one getting rich. And so.. Paul: They made that money, whether they go down or go up it. Allen: Yeah, I mean, they take the money right up front, 5% off the top. As soon as you make a deposit, it's like, man, you haven't done anything. Even if I turn around and ask for the money back, I just love fibers. Do you have like a lot of Is There a lot of overhead for being a advisor? You need a large staff? Paul: Right now, it's just me. And so I'm already have all my setup for my CPA business. So there's not really that much more to do.  Allen: And you can run it from the same location. Yes, yes. Okay. So then who does the like the backend stuff, you know, statements, and compliance audits, all that stuff. Paul: So we use Interactive Brokers as the broker dealer. So they basically, so all my clients have their own account set up with them, and it sort of goes underneath my master account. So so they take care about the then get a statement from there anytime they want to find out what their balances. And if they need to take up money, they can contact them and get the money taken out. So they saw him. So we're doing a lot of the back office stuff. Allen: Awesome. So you really don't have to do anything. And they they opened the account themselves, the client opens the account themselves, they deposit the money themselves, they can take it out whenever they want, they can go and log in, see all the trades, see whatever is there. So you really don't have a lot of customer service issues. And so you don't have to send send out statements, because Interactive Brokers will do that. Right. Paul: And one of my strategies is if someone is, I call it high maintenance, then I probably can't handle that, you know, they probably need to find someone else because, you know, I got enough things to do is it is. Allen: Awesome, cool. And then. So you don't handle any of the money either. Because they just go straight to interactive. So you're like a hands off, okay, I'll do the trades, but I'm not touching your money. So you don't have to worry about me taking your money and running away and flying to Bermuda or something.  Paul: Yeah, just like the Bernie Madoff deal where he was. He they call it having custody of the funds, and he had custody. And so they, they talked about that when you're going through your testing and things like that, about having custody and not having custody and things like that. So yeah, it's a big red flag. Allen: Yeah. Because I mean, like, I've been looking into starting my own hedge fund, you know, using the the passive trading strategies and such. And I looked at RIA first and then I looked at, you know, hedge fund as another way, and I think from what I've been able to find so far is that if you start a hedge fund, and you don't charge any management fees, you don't need the license, you can set it up in a way where you know, you get you only take a percentage of the profit. So if there's a gain, you can get a percent, but you don't get that yearly management fee. If you want the yearly management fee, then you do have to separate a separate Ria, to do the management of the fund. Okay, I didn't know that. Yeah, so I thought that was pretty cool. So we've been looking at that as well, different things. So now, what percentage of your management is active? versus, you know, index funds, mutual funds, etc? Paul: I'd say about half. Allen: Okay, and all of the clients are okay with that, or do you do client by client? Paul: I pretty much put everybody under the same model. Yeah. So Allen: And so with interactive, how does that work, you have to go into each account to put a trade on or you just put one trade on and it just trickles.. Paul: There's a master account and I can set up different  classification. So I could I could buy 1000 shares of IBM and have it spread it putting all the accounts did that.  So they have to watch out for is some of the accounts can trade certain things, some can't, like RIAs cannot do you know, futures and naked options and things like that as far as, at least on the credit side. Allen: Okay. All right. So can does that get confusing? If you want if you want like, Okay, I want like a say IBM, I want my IBM stock to be 5% of all of my everybody's portfolio. Paul: Yeah, that would be a different the different equation. So basically, like I did a trade today where I figured, you know, want to take a $10,000 risk. So divided by what that option was going for. And I bought that many contracts to take on that kind of risk. So not necessarily rebalancing everyone is usually trade by trade. So putting on a certain set of circumstances, set a step stop loss and things like that. Allen: Okay, cool. So you can do it as easy or as simple as you want. Or you can make it as complicated as you want. Yeah, up to you. Yeah. Nice. So what types of what types of trades do you do? Paul: Well, some of what you teach. So I do some swing trading. And of course, you know, credit spreads and things like that. And some, you know, some some of the dividend paying stocks and covered calls and things like that. Allen: And do you do any any oil futures options? Paul: Well, I'm not. I'm just at the point to get licensed for that. Allen: It's a separate license? Paul: That's as a separate license. Yes. So you have to you have to get licensed through the, Chicago Board of Trade, the NFA and National Futures Association. Allen: Okay. Okay. And then will you be able to do it the same as everything else through Interactive Brokers? Paul: Yes, I think so. Sometimes you don't know to actually do it. So I think it's pretty similar. Allen: Sweet. Okay. Now, as a as an RIA, do you also advise your clients on other alternative investments, you know, real estate, crypto anything else? Or is it just stocks, bonds, options? Paul: I'm always getting to ask questions, you know, because I'm in, you know, really, I'm gonna CPA world or the IRA world, I'm getting asked questions. So I will advise on that if I think I have a good opinion. You know, I'm not roll up on that rolled up on crypto Allen: Right, right. Are you still bound by the same fiduciary type rules on that or?  Paul: You could come under some scrutiny. You know, you'd like an offsetting handed comment, and then someone does something crazy. And so you got to be a little careful. Allen: Yeah. All right. And okay, so him now with the interactive account, or the broker dealer, is the software any different? Like, versus if you open a regular account by yourself? Is there anything you have to learn a new platform? Or is it basically the same thing?  Paul: It's pretty much the same platform, you just have to understand how to do the trading, like I was telling you about, like, allocating between all the accounts, but the platform itself is basically the same. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Allen: What do you see as the future of money management, because like, you know, they got these robo advisors now, and they got like Robin Hood, trying to get everybody to trade on their own. And so what do you see down the pike? You know, do you see like, your clients are like, yeah, rather just have you do it? Or are robots or whatever? Paul: Yeah, I can see, you know, some of the robot picking up. But on average, most people out there don't know, hardly anything about the investing world. My average client, so I think it's going to be still a good field you know, way up currently doing it. Allen: Okay, and who is like your average client? Paul: They're probably like 50 years old, that did 60. And probably, you know, got assets anywhere from, you know, 50 to 50,000 to over a million dollars, you know? Allen: And do you have any limits on who can invest with you? And how much? Paul: No, I mean, like, I'm not, I'm just gonna take on any account right now. It would need to be over a certain dollar amount for me to I just always have to keep that in mind about, you know, do I want to take on a five or $10,000 account? Because it's gonna be extra work. Taking that versus the capital issue at-- You don't have to be you don't have to comply with the day trading rules. You know, because because if you if you accidentally in and out three, three trades in a week, then your account gets shut down. You know, so you have to deal with that. So yeah, so I'm trying to gradually move up from like a minimum of 25,000 to 50,000, 200,000. Allen: Okay. And then you also have a certain criteria like a certain person that you want right? Certain somebody they can handle the options and that Intertek can handle that because I mean, it does swing a little bit. So if they have a 5,000 to $10,000 account, they freak out if they lose $1,000, obviously, that's not the right person for you anyway. Paul: Right. But on that same note, I had a client the other day that, you know, they have, you know, an excess a half million dollars with me. And they want to know how they could put in more money since this market was down so they could capture, capture that now mark? I love that kind of client. expecting them to call you and tell you, why is my account down? Actually, that question is dead. They're saying, How can we put more money in?  Allen: Yeah, that's a smart, that's a Smart Client. So that's, that's got to be your email, you know, going out, like, Hey, he's trying to give me more now. double down on your investments. Okay. Now, How has being a money manager improved your own trading? Or hasn't? Paul: Well, I mean, it's made me to seek out new avenues of investing. You know, because I'm looking out for my clients. By the same token, when I do that, I find things that I can use to, you know, like, I don't know, if I would have found the old future options without that, you know, seeking out new new investment strategies, you know, so I could do a better job for my clients. Allen: Okay. Now, we've had a lot of volatility lately. And you've, you've alluded to it already. When stocks down about 20% or so right now, how do you deal with the investor concerns or expectations? Paul: I'm continually learning that. The more, the more proactive you can be with that, I find that it's better. Like, if you have a bad day or a bad trade that, you know, that affects it so much, and then maybe call and talk to them about it versus waiting for them to call you later, and they get their quarterly statements. And they call you know? Allen: Right. So do you find that a large portion of your job is just talking to people and just calming them down? Or explaining certain things to them? Or educating them? Paul: In the beginning? Yes. If someone's with you for a while, and they haven't gotten, understood your ways, and why you do what you do. And it would be generally in the first year of a client relationship, you indeed do that more, but there is sort of they get to know you, you you get to know them and sort of like a training curve there. Allen: And now, most of your clients, are they either they know you or they were referred to you. Right. So there's always there's already that trust built in from the beginning. Most of them yes, yeah. So if you, you know, advertising, somebody comes in cold, they're like, oh, yeah, I like what you're doing here. You know, here's $100,000, there's gonna be a lot more back. Paul: Yeah. Allen: Okay. So how are you handling? How are you handling the volatility? Like when somebody calls up and says, Oh, my count is down. How do you? What do you do there? Paul: Well, number one, what I did when I saw when I saw the market starting to tank, I basically, was going more into cash. So like, I the client won't know why we aren't investing. I said, Well, I'm waiting for the market to give me indication has, it's found the bottom or, you know, it is headed back up. So I don't want to, I'm not a bottom picker. But I don't want to like, write it further down. You know. So that's one way of dealing with it. And they seem to appreciate that quite a bit and understand that. So I don't think that's something you get out of a typical advisor. Allen: So yeah, but what if somebody calls you and says, Oh, my God, you know, I'm down 10%? What am I going to do? I can't handle this. How do you handle that? Have you ever had that happen? Paul: Yeah. I tried to change up their strategies a little bit to get them a little more solid, or maybe not trade as much in their account. Just being a little more cautious. Allen: Okay, so Okay, so you can actually choose, like, let's say, we talked about that IBM thing. So if you're like, Hey, I'm buying IBM, you could choose and say, okay, don't put it in this account in this account, just because in all these other ones,. Yeah. All right. So you can actually tailor it because like, if somebody goes, Yeah, I just want to be long stocks, or I just want tech stocks. And I just want you know, credit spreads. So they you can, you can do that. Yeah, okay. Yep. So, do you have any shortcuts that you can share? You know, for somebody that's thinking, hey, you know, this sounds like cool, I'm gonna I'm gonna get into this. RIA business, anything that you probably didn't know, ahead of time that you would have liked to have known? Paul: This is sort of like a unknown territory. Because, I mean, when I was doing it, I couldn't get anybody to actually figure it out what like a serious 65 license would do. And I was sort of going into blindly a little bit. So I mean, I think the number one thing is maybe you know, then contact me. Shortcuts is, you know, I don't know like I had to find a place to take the take the course for that. And then I hired a guy to tutor me some. And, you know, there's, there's these firms out there wanting you to sign up with them for them to do oh, you know, like your paperwork and so forth. And I just sort of like fumbled my way through it and plagiarized another agreement online affected us. And so another thing is to know if you're in this world, you will get audited. Personally. Well, the your investment firm, right, yeah. Yeah. Like I'm in the CPA world, and I probably will never get out a different CPA world. But the investment side, I will get audited probably time and time again. So far, it's only been once one step Florida, but yeah, Allen: okay. Yeah. I mean, that's a good thing. I guess, you know, that, that the advisors and like you said, you know, the Bernie Madoff, he keeps him at bay as much as he can a little bit. So some of that, I guess, from a consumer standpoint, and that's a good thing to hear. Paul: Yeah, but a lot of a lot of us, they don't necessarily understand the world as much as you do. And it's more like them checking a box somewhere in a city. They ask this question, or I did that, but they don't really find that don't really necessarily know exactly what they're doing, you know, Allen: Yeah. So but do you mean tax audited or audited by like the audit by Paul: the state by the financial regulatory people for the state you're in Allen: The state regulatory? Okay, so every state has their own regulatory stuff that you have so far. Paul: Yeah. So just just sort of background here. Usually, as you're managing under $100 million, you're managed by the state. But then once you hit $100 million in the SEC is basically is going to your watchdog, it's gonna look over your shoulder. Allen: Okay. All right. Cool. And you're in Florida, right? Correct. But you can take clients from anywhere? Paul: I can. But different states have different rules, most of them allow you to take five to 15 clients, and not really be registered with them. But then once you hit over that threshold, they want you to fully registered with them. But there are a few states that require you if you get one client, they want you to be registered. And Louisiana was one of those states. Allen: So I guess, depending on how much capital the guy is gonna give you whether it's worth it to register there.. Paul: Exactly, exactly, yeah. Okay. All right. Allen: So would you knowing what you know, now, are you happy that you went this route? Paul: Ask me again, in a few years. Allen: Well, you've been doing already for like, eight years. So kind of got some kind of track record here. Paul: Yeah, it's been, you know, it's been definitely a learning curve, you know, from the regulatory side. And then from the investment side, too, so? Yes, I'm glad I did it. But it' had its rough moments. Allen: Well, give me an example. Paul: Well if you if you lose on a trade, you know, it can affect your account and other people's account. So that's probably the biggest things that has happened to me, you know? And then you got to figure out how am I gonna tell this person this?  Allen: Yeah. So how did you how did you deal with that? Paul: I prayed a lot. Basically, if I knew the fact that someone so much, I would, I call them and talk to him about it. But in a certain situation, like, because it was spread over so many accounts, it didn't really affect anyone that much. It wasn't that big of a deal. Like, you know, if I'm managing $5 million of money, and I lose 20,000, you know, the most Someone's probably gonna lose is maybe 2 or 3000. So the overall number is a big number. But you know, we spread between all the counts, it's not that big of a number. Allen: Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's that thing, right? There is like, the biggest thing that's kept me out of it for all these years, you know, people have been asking me from the beginning, okay, can you take my money? I'm like, nope, nope, because I don't know how I'm gonna handle the stress. I don't know if, um, we will sleep, I can lose my own money, you know, market down 20% Okay, whatever, it'll go back up, I got time, you know, but somebody else if I lose your money, and I don't know, I don't know how I'm gonna handle it. And so that's the one thing that that's really caused me to be hesitant up till now. And I agree what you said about not having that much information out there. You know, I mean, there are companies out there that will like if you want to be in RIA you type in how to be an RIA and there's a company that hey, you if you give us like 30 grand, you know, we'll do all the paperwork and we'll file everything for you. So you Okay, but what do I actually get? You know, they're like well you do the paperwork. Well what about after that? How do I get clients how do I do this how to do that they will help you at all and these two guys they had approached, they had talked that a because I'm you know Option Genius is in what's called the financial publishing space that world, so we have our own little conventions and all the Guru's come and hang out and talk marketing and stuff. And so there was there was these two guys who were speakers, and they were telling all of the financial publishers that hey, you guys need to get into the into the management business, because you guys already have all these clients? They already trust you? You know, and they probably have a lot of money because people coming to me, you know, they say, Hey, I want to learn how to trade options. Okay, cool, you know, and how large is your account? They're like, Oh, 50,000. Okay, cool. And they trading options with 50,000. But they also have like, maybe a million dollar IRA, that they're not touching, or their wife has $500,000 that is with some other financial advisor that she doesn't want her husband to touch with options. So it's like, yeah, everybody that comes in has a lot more money. So if you started an IRA or an advisor, then you know, they'll give you that money as well. And you can make all this money. And I was like, Okay, that's interesting. But, you know, what are the legalities and all that and they wanted, I don't know, obtain $1,000 plus a percentage of the company to actually teach me all this stuff. And I'm finding a there's a lot of secrecy, as you can say, you know, and Wall Street, I think puts it like that on purpose. Because they don't want everybody to know what they're doing and what they that they don't know what they're doing. Pretty much. So cool. Paul: I don't know, that's intentional, but it just got I think there's so few people who are looking to do it. And like, it's not a widespread throughout the population thing. So you don't find as much about it, you know. Allen: Maybe okay, yeah, I'll take that. Yeah. Because like, you know, even like, what is the difference between an RIA and a hedge fund? You know, I've been beating my head, like, which one? Which way? Do we go? Which way? Do we go? If we go this way? Or this? Or what are the pros? What are the cons, and there's like, no one person that can that can tell me, if you want to go to a hedge fund, they got a little hedge fund world, and, you know, you got to you got to pay the dues to get in. If you want the RA world, then it's more common, but it's, it's for the guys, you know, for people who are like, Yeah, you know, I just want to put everybody's money in an index fund, you know, so it's like, what you're doing is totally different, like, I have not met any advisors that are actually, you know, trading that actively for people. So I mean, compared to the other guy, Joe Schmo that charges 1% a year, or 2% a year, just to put their money in an index fund compared to what you're doing, you know, your value is just so much more. But it does seem like it's very similar to a hedge fund where, you know, a hedge fund is a little bit different, where all the money is pooled into one spot. And then, you know, the, the trader controls it, you're doing kind of similar, where you can look at it and be like, Okay, I got, you know, $10 million under management, how am I going to split that up into different trades? And it just happens to be in different people's accounts? So have you ever thought about increasing your rates because like a hedge fund, they can charge a percentage of the gains? An RIA can't? Can they do that? Paul: They can do that on their certains particulars criteria? I think like you have to have an investor who's has at least $2 million in investable assets. They have at least $1 million invested with you. And then you can have certain arrangements where you say, Well, if I make whatever percentage I'll make about what the s&p does, you'll split it with me, or something like that, you know? Okay, so again, it's very, it's has a lot of criteria to it can't be done, though. Okay. Yeah. Because I wouldn't say the hedge fund world is based on what you're telling me is, cuz you're basically commingling all the funds. Right? So you got to do like a statement for each person or something. Yeah. And so I think the advantage is, you can just commingle it all and then do whatever you need to do. And then at the end of the day, you somehow allocated? Allen: Right, so the thing with the hedge fund is that all the investors have to be accredited. Okay, so accredited, as you know, probably, you know, you basically you have a million dollar net worth not putting your house, or you're making upwards of 300,000 a year. So, you know, basically, so at least Paul: They have to tell you, they're accredited. Right? Allen: I think we would actually want them to be proof, you know, give me proof otherwise, we're not letting you in. Paul: That was actually in so my testing I just did is like, yeah, you want this criteria? But are you actually gonna go go check it? No. So Allen: Interesting. Okay. Because I mean, you know, the government says that the hedge funds, you know, if you're an accredited investor, you should be smarter than the average bear. And so, if you lose money, it's not that big a deal. Like you are smart enough to get into it. You know, somebody with $5,000 or $10,000. That's my life savings. No, sorry, you can't invest in this. Even though the hedge fund might be like doing 1,000,000% a year, you can't invest because you're not accredited. Ras can take basically everybody, so that was one of the things okay, somebody comes in with 50,000 as an RIA, you might just take it because it's not that much paperwork. It's not extra for you. But for a hedge fund. Yeah, no, I can't do it. Because I gotta, I gotta pay the auditing company. I gotta pay the statement company. I got to pay the customer. You know, whoever's doing customer service and answering the phone and doing all that, and salespeople and all that. So 50,000 is not going to cut it, you know, the limit is a lot higher. For sure. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, that, in that sense, totally different world. But very similar from what I'm seeing is that, you know, you're doing probably what we're gonna be doing, you know, similar. Paul: So you probably can't take qualified money like IRAs and things like that. Allen: I think they can. Yeah, yeah, I think they can, as long as a person is accredited. And so there's different regulations, 5063 C, or six, C, five, or six D, they'll those tell you, you know, if you can take accredited and non accredited, and then can you advertise or not, I'm still learning all this, it's all different, because like, if you start a Real Estate Fund, different from if you're doing a hedge fund, versus a private equity fund, so some of the rules apply to everything. Some of the rules are just separate. So I'm still learning all that. But I know that the Interactive Brokers, people, they've done webinars in the past with attorneys. So if anybody wants to start a hedge fund, you can still use the Interactive Brokers platform. And they have they actually have a separate portal, I think, for hedge funds. Yeah, I've seen that. You've seen that too? Where you can actually see what other people are doing. And what are the trades that they're making? Paul: I didn't know about that. I just knew that they had some kind of hedge fund portion of what they're doing. I didn't know exactly what it meant. Allen: Yeah. So So what they said was that, you know, the attorney was like, you know, it'll take several, you know, maybe $30,000, to set up your hedge fund, you can probably do it with a smaller amount, if you want to start an incubator fund, which is like, you know, if you have your own money, and you put in and say $300,000, and you trade it as if it's a fund, and you don't maybe that that paperwork might be like 7000, and you set that up, you treat it as a fun, you build up your track record, and be like, Oh, hey, look, you know, I was trading for six months, I got this, that or not, and then you can start advertising it, and you convert it to a full fund. And then you can say, well, look at my track record, this is what I did. And then people can come in for the full fund. So that was one of the things that they were they were talking about. But so yeah, we were we were looking at an interactive, but the one thing that interacted with their software is a little bit more clunky or less user friendly than some of the most user friendly software. Yeah, it was my personal accounts. Now. So when, do you still trade on on your own on the side? Or is all of your money in the big? Paul: I have some money still in the in the huge fund? And then, you know, I have some I have an account on the side, right? Allen: So that separate account, did that change it all after you got licensed? Because they always, you know, when you open an account, they always ask you, are you licensed? And then they're I don't know why they do that. Is there to change anything on? You're not gonna recall? Paul: Yeah. So, there's, there's occasions where you can link up an account with the master fund, and you can D link the account. So I think at one time I had, it's actually my 401k account for my accounting firm attached to the IRA account, but then I detached it. One of the main reasons was for futures. Okay, because I knew I wasn't qualified to do futures for the whole fun. But I could on a mountain account. Allen: Ah, okay. So you have to keep it separate to do the futures options. Yeah. Until you get licensed by them. And is that like a lengthy process as well? The futures options? License? Yeah. Paul: I took a series three exam back a month or so ago. So I'd studied for two or three months, and again, got a tutor. Yeah. Okay. Allen: All right. How many clients do you have right now? Paul: I'd say about 20-25. Allen: Okay. All right. Cool. And so, from a financial standpoint, has it been worth it? Paul: Yeah, it's been really good. I might, my intention when I know that, you know, once I got into it, my intention was over the years, you know, retirement age, is at my incomes shift for my CPA business or to my investment business. So I could do that, say two hours a day and retirement versus, you know, doing tax seasons and all that. CPA visits. Allen: Okay. Is that still the plan? Yes. Still plan. Awesome. Cool. So yeah, I mean, handling managing millions of dollars of assets in two hours a day. That sounds pretty good to me. Paul: That might be a pipe dream. But that's what I had in mind.  Allen: I think you could do it your own way. You're on your way. Cool. Awesome. So is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think like, oh, yeah, people need to know this. Paul: I could probably sit here and think about a few things. Not on every call. No, no, no, no. I mean, one thing you have to like for instance, a you have to have a like an email account that you Gotta add to retain all your emails for at least like five years. That's one thing to keep in mind. And like I have to send a like a balance sheet and income statement to the state of Florida every year and get someone to notarize it. You have to upload information to the FINRA site at least once a year. And that's where you pay your like on license Louisiana along Florida and things like that. So I pay my fees for those licensing booth vendors website. Allen: And that you had told me that the fee that you charge for management that comes out Interactive Brokers basically pays you every quarter, your fixed asset if I had to build it, right, yeah. Paul: Okay. So, so they do it automatically. But when I got audited, the state wanted me to actually create invoices. So the answer your question is, I'm not sure what the real requirement is. So far, I guess I met that criteria then. So I'm not actually grading him. What's the reporter right now? Okay. Allen: Yeah, I mean, because like, I mentioned, those two consultants that I had talked to, they had told me that I would have to bill everybody invoice, everybody, every quarter. And those people would have to pay me directly. So it wouldn't be taken out of their account, it would be sent directly to me that they would have to write a check every quarter. And I'm like, that's a pain in the butt. You know, that's pretty cumbersome. Yeah, if a customer has to pay, you know, a big check every quarter for management fees. And then especially if you have a down year, he's like, What am I paying for it? I don't pay for this anymore. And you don't get paid. So I was like, Okay, that's a big red flag. But I'm glad that that's not true. Cool. Okay. Paul: One thing I have figured out there is, like, there's an account I was going to take from someone from one advisors to me, and they had all their fees, like totally hidden with all these mutual funds and things like that. And so like, you know, that account, I was gonna charge 3.3%. But we weren't able to ever get to the bottom of what the other advisor was charging. So, even though they have a lot of disclosures and things like that, I think we could have pressed the issue if we really wanted to. But, um, but you know, I ended up losing that account. Allen: So did that customer realize that, that he's being charged all these things? Paul: No, no, no clue. No, I mean, whenever I sort of parted ways, and I said, you guys at least need to figure out what they're charging you. You'd be surprised at the amount of inept that's out there and people who are actually hiring advisors, like, yeah, most people do not keep like their annual statements. They couldn't tell me how much they made last year. You know, because really, when I'm taking on an account, I want to know, what their track record has been sort of what I would need to beat to make them happy. You know, a lot of them are not that attuned to that. Allen: That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, people, they work their entire lives to save up money and invest it so they can retire. But then they don't pay any attention to the money. Oh, boy.. Paul: I think it's because they don't know that much about it. So they wouldn't know what to do if it was not what they wanted, you know? Allen: Yeah. I mean, you gotta you gotta take a little bit of time to at least read the statements and figure out where's the money going? And it could be better disclosed, you know, the statements could be easier to read that that's definitely sure. That's, yeah. But it is what it is for now. Paul: Like, I have this account right now, I'm probably going pick up another six to nine or 1000. And I asked them to get their annual statements ready. Because I wanted to see what they have been. have been doing, you know, so, you know, so they didn't know if there'll be they'll find those. So let me guess. It's like, it's weird. Allen: Okay, they just like asked her her advisor. Paul: Oh, that might be red flag fight flight to them. And they are looking so yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. seem bizarre. Allen: So if somebody was thinking about starting their own advisory firm, what would you say? They would need in terms of like, what are the minimums, okay, you should have been in the market for, you know, five years, you know, or you got to know XYZ, is there anything that you would say that, you know, if you don't, if you can't even do this, and this is not for you? Paul: Well, they're planning on doing what I'm doing, they probably need at least three to five years, you know, their own market experience. But, you know, that being said, like, I just met with someone the other day, and I could put all my funds through their strategies, and just sit and coast. You know, really, they charge an extra 1% or whatever, so I'll back off of my fee a little bit. You know, so you can you can play the game different ways. Wow. So you could do like I can see a new person and starting that and just have these other you know, because they have what's called sub managers or something like that. I don't know the exact term. Basically, you're hiring other money managers to manage the money you have for your clients. Right, like sub advisors, maybe is what it's called. Okay. So I'm not saying it will totally preclude them that they didn't have three to five years. But, you know, hopefully they're drawing on someone's experience to help hold their handle that Allen: Right. And do you know how much it costs to get it up and running? Paul: I would say three to five grand. Wow, that's not much. I mean, the hardware, these firms are brought in to charge you five times that? Allen: Yeah. Okay. So well, the sub accounts. Yeah, actually, I do remember those consultants talking to me about that. Paul: They they call it sub advisors? Allen: Yeah, I think that's what it is. And it's like, yeah, you know, if you don't want to do it yourself, you can put your money, you can put your your clients money into different buckets, and then they just do it for you, and they charge and then you split the fees or whatever, or something like that. So, and then each broker, each broker dealer has different ones. So like Fidelity or Schwab will have different sub accounts versus what you could put your stuff in. But interesting, I just Just curious the ones that you had talked to what what strategies were they were using, Paul: They're using free cash flow to is their criteria for who they're investing in. So they have like international, they call a cash cow c-o-w. So they've international domestic, and things like that. So they have a different definition of free cash flow. So they're they're fearing that's the best value, their way of determining value out there, like sort of like a value fund, but their own definition of what value is. Allen: Okay, so they're investing in stocks. Paul: Yes, international and domestic.   Allen: And they handle the ins and outs. And so you could put a portion of your client's money in there, you put it all in there. So it's like, it's like an ETF. So basically, you can say I want 20% of my money to go on this domestic one 20% International. And I might, I'm in talks with them. So I might end up doing some more money that way. But so they're coming up with different sample portfolios that I can use their funds for. Allen: Okay, interesting. And so that must be a much larger company. Paul: Yeah, I'm not sure how big they are. But they're, you know, big enough to where they had like a representative here in central Florida and some of their back office helping them out. Awesome. I'm not sure their size yet. Allen: Yeah. So I mean, this rabbit hole is pretty big. You can dive in there and spend a lot of time figuring all this stuff out. Paul: Yeah, yeah. So I can see a way I could sit and close more. But you're only doing it two hours a day anyway. Allen: Cool. All right. Paul: Well, maybe we're gonna get into my retirement years, a certain amount of years. I'll just put it there and just coast. The zero hours a day. Yep. Allen: Yeah, my, my neighbor in the office next door, he's a financial adviser. He's been doing it for, I think, 25 years now. So he's built up, you know, a sizable clientele. And so now he's at the point where he wants to retire. But he doesn't know what to do with the firm. He's like, you know, he makes probably a good 500,000 a year income from it. And he's like, I want one of my kids to take over. But the kids are not really willing, and not interested. He's like, I don't know what to do. So he's still there.  So there's been periods of times or, you know, like, I sit on the CPA world deal with other investment advisors, where it's been a quite a lucrative market to get bought your practice bought out by bigger, let's say Merrill Lynch or something like that, you know, they pay some pretty big bucks to buy those books of business. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, one of the things that the consultants told me is that once you get you get a client, that turnover, meaning the fact that they're going to leave you is not very high, they're gonna stay with you for years and years. So you can count on that money coming in, you know, that fee money coming in for a long period of time, unless you unless you totally screw it up, and then they're gonna leave. Paul: If you play the play smart. You know, if you're dealing with someone 50 years old, right now, you know, another 10 or 20 years, you're gonna pick up their kids and things like that when they need investment advice and stuff. It's, it'd be a self perpetuating thing. Allen: Yeah, yeah. And I do like the fact that there's always going to be somebody there willing to buy you, your company. You know, because a lot of times in smaller companies if you're the only person or if you got one or two employees, nobody really wants to buy the company even if it's successful. Nobody wants to buy it because they would without you there they're basically buying a job for themselves, right? It's not running on its own you're the one doing all the work in this case. Yeah, you're the one doing all the work but they don't need you. They can just, you know, have their own advisors take over. So you still get a pretty decent multiple when you sell so that's really cool too. Right? Paul: Also, I met a.. in my travels on this world. I've met the company and actually finance you if you want to buy on someone else's practice in the financial visor word world. Allen: Hmm.. So have you looked into that? Paul: I had a conversation or two with them, but I haven't really pursued it further. Yeah. Because I didn't know if I wanted to buy a larger practice. Right? Yeah. Because generally, that is a seven year payout to do that. So, you know, seven years, you'd be free and clear. Allen: That'll be interesting. Yeah. So a lot of ways to skin this cat. So you would I mean, I'm assuming that if anybody asked you, Hey, should I do this? Probably the answer is yes. Paul: Yeah, I mean, just mean, talk to people who have done it, and sort of figure out if it's a good fit for you, you know? Yeah. It's definitely can be pretty lucrative. Allen: Right? And I like the fact that it's like, for you at least it's more localized, you know, so you're not competing with somebody in California or Canada, or whatever. It's like, yeah, you guys get your clients over there. I'll have my clients over here. You know, they love me, they trust me. We hang out maybe. And sometimes. So it's not like a competitive situation. So, right. Awesome. Are you in any? Are there any, like, associations or memberships for advisors?  Paul: No, I'm not. Allen: No, but obviously, they probably have them? Paul: Yeah, I'm just not familiar. Very familiar with that. I have another advisor to hang out with suddenly sort of share some ideas. That's, that's all I have right now. Allen: And they're also private. Like on their own? Paul: Now, one of the reasons I didn't cover this in the beginning, like when I started looking into this whole thing, I didn't want to get clients and then share my fees with other people. That's why I didn't latch on to a bigger firm and start building my clients from there. So that's why I started my own Ra. So they will be my clients. And I get all the fees for them. And no one else had had rights to him. So that's, that's one of the reasons I did the way I did it. Allen: Okay. Okay. So what would be the benefits of going with a larger firm just to name recognition? Paul: Well, they have, one of the biggest things is called compliance. So like, right now, I'm my own compliance officer for my firm, okay, and larger firm like that they have whole departments that take care of compliance, for you to make sure you don't get in trouble, the regulators and so forth. So, like this other advisor, I had, he joined another firm, just so you could have that compliance piece to it. But in his firm, he can't trade options. Right? Allen: Because they're very limited. Yeah, exactly.  Paul: It's taught me to join his is up, like can't trade options. Allen: Because compliance says no. Paul: It was on the client's officer. Allen: Right. So that's why when you said you were thinking about advertising, it's the risk is on you because you're the compliance officer. So you got to know exactly what can be done and what can't be done. Right. Right. Interesting, cool. Is there anything else because  I'm out of questions. Paul: One of the things, one of the things I tell you, I looked into going with other companies, other inactive brokers when I started, okay, and like Charles Schwab wanted you to have $7 million you're managing before you could go with them. Allen: Whoa, okay. And they're the biggest right right now, I think. Paul: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one reasons with Interactive Brokers, because they didn't have the minimums like that. I didn't really check too much rather than other people. Allen: So and how's your customer service at Interactive Brokers, because they for personal accounts, they don't have a good reputation. Paul: Yeah, they have a separate line, you can call as a professional advisor. So it's, I get pretty quick attention. Usually, you know, it's not it's not perfect, but you know, it's decent. Yeah, but you're happy. Yeah, I'm not saying that. I'm sure other companies have better customer service but you know, for right now, they, you know, I might need to call him a few times, but I get what I needed if I need need to.. Allen: And how are their margins and Commissions? Paul: Commission's are pretty low. I don't have the exact numbers I just know less than like $1 per 100 shares. Allen: And who comes out of the customers account? Obviously. Paul: Each person like when you do a trade display something all the counselee they pick up their own fees. Allen: Cool. All right. Well, thank you Paul. You know, Paul's website is again BusinessAdvisors.Pro. Paul said that he could reach out you know, you guys can reach out to him if you have any questions. And Paul is also in our other memberships are other programs as well past trading formula blank check and credit spread. So if you guys are members of those, you can reach out to him there. You'll find him in the group. And he's been very gracious with his time. So I do want to thank you and And he's very active in the group and you know you've been helping a lot of newer people as well they're so appreciate you there. Interesting place, interesting world and as I dive in I'm probably going to reach out to you more. Paul: Sounds great, I appreciate it.  Allen: Thank you thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon JOIN OUR FREE PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps. Thank you!

Paul Well speaking on 1 John 1:1-4

00:58 - Paul's Superpower: Participating in Scary Things 02:19 - EventStorming (https://www.eventstorming.com/) * Optimized For Collaboration * Visualizing Processes * Working Together * Sticky (Post-it) Notes (https://www.post-it.com/3M/en_US/post-it/products/~/Post-it-Products/Notes/?N=4327+5927575+3294529207+3294857497&rt=r3) 08:35 - Regulation: Avoiding Overspecifics * “The Happy Path” * Timeboxing * Parking Lot (https://project-management.fandom.com/wiki/Parking_lot) * Inside Pixar (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13302848/#:~:text=This%20documentary%20series%20of%20personal,culture%20of%20Pixar%20Animation%20Studios.) * Democratization * Known Unknowns 15:32 - Facilitation and Knowledge Sharing * Iteration and Refinement * Knowledge Distillation / Knowledge Crunching * Clarifying Terminology: Semantics is Meaning * Embracing & Exposing Fuzziness (Complexities) 24:20 - Key Events * Narrative Shift * Domain-Driven Design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-driven_design) * Shift in Metaphor 34:22 - Collaboration & Teamwork * Perspective * Mitigating Ambiguity 39:29 - Remote EventStorming and Facilitation * Miro (https://miro.com/) * MURAL (https://www.mural.co/) 47:38 - EventStorming vs Event Sourcing (https://martinfowler.com/eaaDev/EventSourcing.html) * Sacrificing Rigor For Collaboration 51:14 - Resources * The EventStorming Handbook (https://leanpub.com/eventstorming_handbook) * Paul's Upcoming Workshops (https://www.virtualgenius.com/events) * @thepaulrayner (https://twitter.com/thepaulrayner) Reflections: Mandy: Eventstorming and its adjacence to Technical Writing. Damien: You can do this on a small and iterative scale. Jess: Shared understanding. Paul: Being aware of the limitations of ideas you can hold in your head. With visualization, you can hold it in more easily and meaningfully. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDY: Welcome to Episode 271 of Greater Than Code. My name is Mandy Moore and I'm here today with a guest, but returning panelist. I'm happy to see Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Mandy. It's great to see you. I'm also excited to be here today with Damien Burke! DAMIEN: And I am excited to be here with both of you and our guest today, Paul Rayner. Paul Rayner is one of the leading practitioners of EventStorming and domain-driven design. He's the author of The EventStorming Handbook, co-author of Behavior-Driven Development with Cucumber, and the founder and chair of the Explore DDD conference. Welcome to the show, Paul. PAUL: Thanks, Damien. Great to be here. DAMIEN: Great to have you. And so you know, you are prepared, you are ready for our first and most famous question here on Greater Than Code? PAUL: I don't know if I'm ready, or prepared, but I can answer it, I think. [laughter] DAMIEN: I know you have prepared, so I don't know if you are prepared. PAUL: Right. DAMIEN: Either way, here it comes. [chuckles] What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? PAUL: Okay. So a couple of weeks ago, there's a lake near my house, and the neighbors organized a polar plunge. They cut a big hole in the ice and everyone lines up and you basically take turns jumping into the water and then swimming to the other side and climbing out the ladder. So my superpower is participating in a polar plunge and I acquired that by participating with my neighbors. There was barbecue, there was a hot tub, and stuff like that there, too. So it was very, very cool. It's maybe not a superpower, though because there were little kids doing this also. So it's not like it was only me doing it. JESSICA: I'll argue that your superpower is participating in scary things because you're also on this podcast today! PAUL: [chuckles] Yeah, there we go. DAMIEN: Yeah, that is very scary. Nobody had to be fished out of the water? No hospital, hypothermia, any of that? PAUL: No, there was none of that. It was actually a really good time. I mean, being in Denver, blue skies, it was actually quite a nice day to jump into frozen. MANDY: So Paul, you're here today to talk about EventStorming. I want to know what your definition of that is, what it is, and why it's a cool topic to be talking about on Greater Than Code. PAUL: Okay. Well, there's a few things there. So firstly, what is EventStorming? I've been consulting, working with teams for a long time, coaching them and a big part of what I try and do is to try and bridge the gap between what the engineers, the developers, the technical people are trying to build in terms of the software, and what the actual problem is they're trying to solve. EventStorming is a technique for just mapping out a process using sticky notes where you're trying to describe the story of what it is that you're building, how that fits into the business process, and use the sticky notes to layer in variety of information and do it in a collaborative kind of way. So it's really about trying to bridge that communication gap and uncover assumptions that people might have, expose complexity and risk through the process, and with the goal of the software that you write actually being something that solves the real problem that you're trying to solve. I think it's a good topic for Greater Than Code based on what I understand about the podcast, because it certainly impacts the code that you write, touches on that, and connects with the design. But it's really optimized for collaboration, it's optimized for people with different perspectives being able to work together and approach it as visualizing processes that people create, and then working together to be able to do that. So there's a lot of techniques out there that are very much optimized from a developer perspective—UML diagrams, flow charts, and things like that. But EventStorming really, it sacrifices some of that rigor to try and draw people in and provide a structured conversation. I think with the podcast where you're trying to move beyond just the code and dig into the people aspects of this a lot more, I think it really touches on that in a meaningful way. JESSICA: You mentioned that with a bunch of stickies, a bunch of different people, and their perspectives, EventStorming layers in different kinds of information. PAUL: Mm hm. JESSICA: Like what? PAUL: Yeah. So the way that usually approach it is, let's say, we're modeling, visualizing some kind of process like somebody registering for a certain thing, or even somebody, maybe a more common example, purchasing something online and let's say, that we have the development team that's responsible for implementing how somebody might return a product to a merchant, something like that. The way it would work is you describe that process as events where each sticky note represents something that happened in the story of returning a product and then you can layer on questions. So if people have questions, use a different colored sticky note for highlighting things that people might be unsure of, what assumptions they might be making, differences in terminology, exposing those types of unknowns and then once you've sort of laid out that timeline, you can then layer in things like key events, what you might call emergent structures. So as you look at that timeline, what might be some events that are more important than others? JESSICA: Can you make that concrete for me? Give me an example of some events in the return process and then…? PAUL: Yeah. So let's say, the customer receives a product that they want to return. You could have an event like customer receive product and then an event that is customer reported need for return. And then you would have a shift in actor, like a shift in the person doing the work where maybe the merchant has to then merchant sent return package to customer. So we're mapping out each one of these as an event in the process and then the customer receives, or maybe it's a shipping label. The customer receives the shipping label and then they put the items in the package with the shipping label and they return it. And then there would be a bunch of events that the merchant would have to take care of. So the merchant would have to receive that package and then probably have to update the system to record that it's been returned. And then, I imagine there would be processing another order, or something like that. A key event in there might be something like sending out the shipping label and the customer receiving the shipping label because that's a point where the responsibility transfers from the merchant, who is preparing the shipping label and dispatching that, to the customer that's actually receiving it and then having to do something. That's just one, I guess, small example of you can use that to divide that story up into what you might think of as chapters where there's different responsibilities and changes in the narrative. Part of that maybe layering in sticky notes that represent who's doing the work. Like who's the actor, whether it's the merchant, or the customer, and then layering in other information, like the systems that are involved in that such as maybe there's email as a system, maybe there's the actual e-commerce platform, a payment gateway, these kinds of things could be reflected and so on, like there's – [overtalk] JESSICA: Probably integration with the shipper. PAUL: Integration with the shipper, right. So potentially, if you're designing this, you would have some kind of event to go out to the shipper to then know to actually pick up the package and that type of thing. And then once the package is actually delivered back to the merchant, then there would be some kind of event letting the merchant know. It's very hard to describe because I'm trying to picture this in my mind, which is an inherently visual thing. It's probably not that interesting to hear me describing something that's usually done on some kind of either mirror board, like some kind of electronic space, or on a piece of butcher's paper, or – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Something with a lot of sticky notes. PAUL: Something with a lot of sticky notes, right. DAMIEN: Which, I believe for our American listeners, sticky notes are the little square pieces of brightly colored paper with self-adhesive strip on the back. PAUL: Yeah. The stickies. DAMIEN: Stickies. [chuckles] I have a question about this process. I've been involved in very similar processes and it sounds incredibly useful. But as you describe it, one of the concerns I have is how do you avoid getting over specific, or over described? Like you can describe systems until you're talking about the particles in the sun, how do you know when to stop? PAUL: So I think there's a couple of things. Number one is at the start of whatever kind of this activity, this EventStorming is laying out what's the goal? What are we trying to accomplish in terms of the process? With returns, for example, it would be maybe from this event to this event, we're trying to map out what that process looks like and you start with what you might call the happy path. What does it look like when everything goes well? And then you can use pink stickies to represent alternate paths, or things going wrong and capture those. If they're not tied back to this goal, then you can say, “Okay, I think we've got enough level of detail here.” The other thing is time boxing is saying, “Okay, well, we've only got half an hour, or we've only got an hour so let's see how much we can do in that time period,” and then at the end of that, if you still have a lot of questions, then you can – or you feel like, “Oh, we need to dig into some of these areas more.” Then you could schedule a follow up session to dig into that a little bit more. So it's a combination of the people that are participating in this deciding how much level of detail they want to go down to. What I find is it typically is something that as you're going through the activity, you start to see. “Oh, maybe this is too far down in the weeds versus this is the right level.” As a facilitator, I don't typically prescribe that ahead of time, because it's much easier to add sticky notes and then talk about them than it is to have a conversation when there's nothing visualized. I like to visualize it first and lay it out and then it's very easy to say, “Oh, well, this looks like too much detail. So we'll just put a placeholder for that and not worry about out it right now.” It's a little bit of the facilitation technique of having a parking lot where you can say, “Okay, this is a good topic, but maybe we don't need to get down in that right now. Maybe let's refocus back on what it is that we're trying to accomplish.” JESSICA: So there's some regulation that happens naturally during the meeting, during interactions and you can have that regulation in the context of the visual representation, which is the EventStorming, the long row of stickies from one event to the other. PAUL: Right, the timeline that you're building up. So it's a little bit in my mind, I watched last year, I think it was on Netflix. There was a documentary about Pixar and how they do their storyboarding process for their movies and it is exactly that. They storyboard out the movie and iterate over that again and again and again telling that story. What's powerful about that is it's a visual medium so you have someone that is sketching out the main beats of the story and then they're talking it through. Not to say that EventStorming is at that level of rigor, but it has that kind of feel to it of we're laying out these events to tell the story and then we're talking through the story and seeing what we've missed and where we need to add more detail, maybe where we've added too much detail. And then like you said, Jess, there's a certain amount of self-regulation in there in terms of, do we have enough time to go down into this? Is this important right now? JESSICA: And I imagine that when I have questions that go further into detail than we were able to go in the meeting, if I've been in that EventStorming session, I know who to ask. PAUL: That's the idea, yeah. So the pink stickies that we said represent questions, what I like about those is, well, several things. Number one, it democratizes the idea that it's okay to ask questions, which I think is a really powerful technique. I think there's a tendency in meetings for some people to hold back and other people to do all the talking. We've all experienced that. What this tries to do is to democratize that and actually make it not only okay and not only accepted, but encourage that you're expected to ask questions and you're expected to put these sticky notes on here when there's things that you don't understand. JESSICA: Putting the questions on a sticky note, along with the events, the actors, and the things that we do know go on sticky notes, the questions also go on sticky notes. All of these are contributions. PAUL: Exactly. They value contributions and what I love about that is that even people that are new to this process, it's a way for them to ask questions in a way that is kind of friendly to them. I've seen this work really well, for example, with onboarding new team members and also, it encourages the idea that we have different areas of expertise. So in any given process, or any business story, whatever you want to characterize it as, some people are going to know more about some parts of it than others. What typically happens is nobody knows the whole story, but when we work together, we can actually build up an approximation of that whole story and help each other fill in the gaps. So you may have the person that's more on the business, or the product side explaining some terminology. You can capture those explanations on sticky notes as a glossary that you're building up as you go. You can have engineers asking questions about the sequence of events in terms of well, does this one come before that one? And then the other thing that's nice about the questions is it actually as you're going, it's mapping out your ignorance and I see that as a positive thing. JESSICA: The known unknowns. PAUL: Known unknowns. It takes unknown unknowns, which the kind of elephant in the room, and at least gets them up as known unknowns that you can then have a conversation around. Because there's often this situation of a question that somebody's afraid to ask and maybe they're new to the team, or maybe they're just not comfortable asking that type of question. But it gives you actually a map of that ignorance so you can kind of see oh, there's this whole area here that just has a bunch of pink stickies. So that's probably not an area we're ready to work on and we should prioritize. Actually, if this is an area that we need to be working on soon, we should prioritize getting answers to these questions by maybe we need to do a proof of concept, or some UX work, or maybe some kind of prototyping around this area, or like you said, Jess, maybe the person that knows the answers to these questions is just not in this session right now and so, we need to follow up with them, get whatever answers we need, and then come back and revisit things. JESSICA: So you identify areas of risk. PAUL: Yes. Areas of risk, both from a product perspective and also from a technical perspective as well. DAMIEN: So what does it take to have one of these events, or to facilitate one of these events? How do you know when you're ready and you can do it? PAUL: So I've done EventStorming [chuckles] as a conference activity in a hallway with sticky notes and we say, “Okay, let's as a little bit of an icebreaker here –” I usually you do the story of Cinderella. “Let's pick the Disney story of Cinderella and we'll just EventStorm this out. Just everyone, here are some orange sticky notes and a Sharpie, just write down some things that you remember happening in that story,” and then everyone writes a few. We post it up on the hallway wall and then we sequence them as a timeline and then we can basically build up that story in about 5, or 10 minutes from scratch. With a business process, it's not that different. It's like, okay, we're going to do returns, or something like that and if people are already familiar with the technique, then just give them a minute, or so to think of some things that they know that would happen in that process. And then they do that individually and then we just post them up on the timeline and then sequence them as a group and it can happen really quickly. And then everything from there is refinement. Iteration and refinement over what you've put up as that initial skeleton. DAMIEN: Do you ever find that a team comes back a week, or a day, or a month later and goes, “Oh, there is this big gap in our narrative because nobody in this room understood the warehouse needed to be reordered in order to send this thing down”? PAUL: Oh, for sure. Sometimes it's big gaps. Sometimes it's a huge cluster of pink sticky notes that represents an area where there's just a lot of risk and unknowns that the team maybe hasn't thought about all that much. Like you said, it could be there's this third-party thing that it wasn't until everyone got in a room and kind of started to map it out, that they realized that there was this gap in their knowledge. JESSICA: Yeah. Although, you could completely miss it if there's nobody from the warehouse in the room and nobody has any idea that you need to tell the warehouse to expect this return. PAUL: Right and so, part of that is putting a little bit of thought into who would need to be part of this and in a certain way, playing devil's advocate in terms of what don't we know, what haven't we thought of. So it encourages that sense of curiosity with this and it's a little bit different from – Some of the listeners maybe have experienced user story mapping and other techniques like that. Those tend to be focused on understanding a process, but they're very much geared towards okay, how do we then figure out how we're going to code up this feature and how do we slice it up into stories and prioritize that. So it's similar in terms of sticky notes, but the emphasis in EventStorming is more on understanding together, the problem that we're trying to address from a business perspective. JESSICA: Knowledge pulling. PAUL: Yeah. Knowledge pulling, knowledge distillation, those types of idea years, and that kind of mindset. So not just jumping straight to code, but trying to get a little bit of a shared understanding of what all is the thing that we're trying to actually work on here. JESSICA: Eric Evans calls it knowledge crunching. PAUL: Yes, Eric called it knowledge crunching. DAMIEN: I love that phrase, that shared understanding. That's what we, as product teams, are generating is a shared understanding both, captured in our documentation, in our code, and before that, I guess on large sheets of butcher paper. [laughs] PAUL: Well, and it could be a quick exercise of okay, we're going to be working on some new feature and let's just spend 15 minutes just mapping it out to get a sense of, are we on the same page with this? JESSICA: Right, because sometimes it's not even about we think we need to know something, it's do we know enough? Let's find out. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: And is that knowledge shared among us? PAUL: Right, and maybe exposing, like it could be as simple as slightly different terminology, or slightly different understanding of terminology between people that can have a big impact in terms of that. I was teaching a workshop last night where we were talking about this, where somebody had written the event. So there was a repair process that a third-party repair company would handle and then the event that closed that process off, they called case closed. So then the question becomes well, what does case closed mean? Because the word case – [overtalk] JESSICA: [laughs] It's like what's the definition of done? PAUL: Right, exactly. [laughter] Because that word case didn't show up anywhere earlier in the process. So is this like a new concept? Because the thing that kicks off the process is repair purchase order created and at the end of the process, it's said case closed. So then the question becomes well, is case closed really, is that a new concept that we actually need to implement here? Or is this another way of saying that we are getting a copy of that repair purchase order back that and it's been updated with details about what the repair involved? Or maybe it's something like repair purchase order closed. So it's kind of forcing us to clarify terminology, which may seem a little bit pedantic, but that's what's going to end up in the code. If you can get some of those things exposed a little earlier before you actually jump to code and get people on the same page and surface any sort of differences in terminology and misunderstandings, I think that can be super helpful for everyone. JESSICA: Yeah. Some people say it's just semantics. Semantics' meaning, its only meaning, this is only about out what this step actually means because when you put it in the code, the code is crystal clear. It is going to do exactly what it does and whether that clarity matches the shared understanding that we think we have oh, that's the difference between a bug and a working system. DAMIEN: [laughs] That's beautiful. It's only meaning. [laughs] JESSICA: Right? Yeah. But this is what makes programming hard is that pedanticness. The computer is the ultimate pedant. DAMIEN: Pedant. You're going to be pedantic about it. [laughter] PAUL: I see what you did there. [laughter] DAMIEN: And that is the occupation, right? That is what we do is look at and create systems and then make them precise. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: In a way that actually well, is precise. [laughs] JESSICA: Right, and the power of our human language is that it's not precise, that it allows for ambiguity, and therefore, a much broader range of meaning. But as developers, it's our job to be precise. We have to be precise to the computers. It helps tremendously to be precise with each other. DAMIEN: Yeah, and I think that's actually the power of human cognition is that it's not precise. We are very, very fuzzy machines and anyone who tries to pretend otherwise will be greatly disappointed. Ask me how I know. [laughter] PAUL: Well, and I think what I'm trying to do with something like EventStorming is to embrace the fuzziness, is to say that that's actually an asset and we want to embrace that and expose that fuzziness, that messiness. Because the processes we have and work with are often inherently complex. We are trying to provide some visual representation of that so we can actually get our head around, or our minds around the language complexities, the meanings, and drive in a little bit to that meaning. JESSICA: So when the sticky notes pile on top of each other, that's a feature. PAUL: It is. Going back to that example I was just talking about, let's say, there's a bunch of, like we do the initial part of this for a minute, or so where people are creating sticky notes and let's say, we end up with four, or five sticky notes written by different people on top of each other that end up on the timeline that all say pretty much the same thing with slight variations. JESSICA: Let's say, case closed, request closed. PAUL: Case closed, repair purchase order closed, repair purchase order updated, repair purchase order sent. So from a meaning perspective, I look at that and I say, “That's gold in terms of information,” because that's showing us that there's a richness here. Firstly, that's a very memorable thing that's happening in the timeline – [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh and it has multiple things. PAUL: That maybe means it's a key event. Right, and then what is the meaning? Are these the same things? Are they different things? Maybe we don't have enough time in that session to dig into that, but if we're going to implement something around that, or work with something around that, then we're going to at some point need some clarity around the language, the terminology, and what these concepts mean. Also, the sequence as well, because it might be that there's actually multiple events being expressed there that need to be teased apart. DAMIEN: You used this phrase a couple times, “key event,” and since you've used it a couple times, I think it might be key. [laughter] Can you tell us a little bit about what a key event is? What makes something a key event? PAUL: Yeah, the example I like to use is from the Cinderella story. So if you think about the story of Cinderella, one of the things, when people are doing that as an icebreaker, they always end up being multiple copies of the event that usually is something like shoe lost, or slipper lost, or glass slipper lost. There's something about that event that makes it memorable, firstly and then there's something about that event that makes it pivotal in the story. For those that are not familiar with the story [chuckles]—I am because I've EventStormed this thing maybe a hundred times—but there's this part. Another key event is the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic at the start and she actually describes a business policy. She says, “The magic is going to run out at midnight,” and like all business policies, it's vague [laughter] and it's unclear as to what it means because – [overtalk] JESSICA: The carriage disappears, the dress disappears, but not the slipper that fell off. PAUL: Exactly. There's this exception that for some bizarre reason, to move the plot forward, the slipper stays. But then the definition of midnight is very hazy because what she's actually describing, in software terms, is a long running process of the clock banging 12 times, which is what midnight means is the time between the first and the twelfth and during that time, the magic is slowly unraveling. JESSICA: So midnight is a duration, not an instant. PAUL: Exactly. Yes, it's a process, not an event. So coming back to the question that Damien asked about key events. That slipper being lost is a key event in that story, I think because it actually is a shift in narrative. Up until that point in the story, it's the story of Cinderella and then after that, once the slipper is lost, it becomes the story of the prince looking for Cinderella. And then at the end, you get the day tomorrow, the stuff that happens with that slipper at the end of the story. Another key event would be like the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic. DAMIEN: [chuckles] It seems like these are necessary events, right? If the slipper is not lost, if the fairy godmother doesn't do magic, you don't have the story of Cinderella. PAUL: Right. These are narrative turns, right? DAMIEN: Yeah. PAUL: These are points of the story shifts and so, key events can sometimes be a narrative shift where it's driving the story forward in a business process. Something like, let's say, you're working on an e-commerce system, like order submitted is a key event because you are adding items to a shopping cart and then at some point, you make a decision to submit the order and then at that point, it transitions from order being a draft thing that is in a state of flux to it actually becomes essentially immutable and gets passed over to fulfilment. So there's a shift in responsibility and actor between these two as well just like between Cinderella and the prince. JESSICA: A shift in who is driving the story forward. PAUL: Right. Yeah. So it's who is driving the story forward. So these key events often function as a shift in actor, a shift in who's driving the story forward, or who has responsibility. They also often indicate a handoff because of that from one group to another in an organization. Something like a sales process that terminates in contract signed. That key event is also the goal of the sales process. The goal is to get to contract signed and then once that happens, there's usually a transition to say, an onboarding group that actually onboards the new customer in the case of a sales process for a new customer, or in e-commerce, it would be the fulfillment part, the warehousing part that Jess was talking about earlier. That's actually responsible for the fulfillment piece, which is they take that order, they create a package, they put all the items in the package, create the shipping label, and ship it out to the customer. JESSICA: And in domain-driven design, you talked about the shift from order being a fluid thing that's changing as people add stuff to their cart to order being immutable. The word order has different meanings for the web site where you're buying stuff and the fulfillment system, there's a shift in that term. PAUL: Right, and that often happens around a key event, or a pivotal event is that there's a shift from one, you might think of it as context, or language over to another. So preorder submission, it's functioning as a draft order, but what it's actually typically called is a shopping cart and a shopping cart is not the same as an order. It's a great metaphor because there is no physical cart, but we all know what that means as a metaphor. A shopping cart is a completely different metaphor from an order, but we're able to understand that thread of continuity between I have this interactive process of taking items, or products, putting them in the shopping cart, or out again. And then at some point that shopping cart, which is functioning as a draft order, actually it becomes an order that has been submitted and then it gets – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Yeah, the metaphor doesn't really work until that transition. You have a shopping cart and then you click purchase and now what? [laughs] You're not going to the register and ringing it up, that doesn't make any sense. [chuckles] The metaphor kind of has to end there. JESSICA: You're not leaving the cart in the corral in the parking lot. [laughter] PAUL: Well, I think what they're trying to do is when you think about going through the purchase process at a store, you take your items up in the shopping cart and then at that point, you transition into a financial transaction that has to occur that then if you were at a big box electronic store, or something, eventually, you would make the payment. You would submit payment. That would be the key events and that payment is accepted and then you receive a receipt, which is kind of the in-person version of a record of your order that you've made because you have to bring the receipt back. DAMIEN: It sort of works if the thing you're putting in the shopping cart are those little cards. When they don't want to put things on the shelf, they have a card, you pick it up, and you take it to register. They ring it up, they give you a receipt, and hopefully, the thing shows up in the mail someday, or someone goes to the warehouse and goes gets it. PAUL: We've all done that. [chuckles] Sometimes it shows up. Sometimes it doesn't. JESSICA: That's an interesting point that at key events, there can be a shift in metaphor. PAUL: Yes. Often, there is. So for example, I mentioned earlier, a sales process ending in a contract and then once the contract is signed, the team – let's say, you're signing on a new customer, for a SaaS service, or something like that. Once they've signed the contract, the conversation isn't really about the contract anymore. It's about what do we need to do to onboard this customer. Up until that point, the emphasis is maybe on payment, legal disclosures, and things like that. But then the focus shifts after the contract is signed to more of an operational focus of how do we get the data in, how do we set up their accounts correctly, that type of thing. JESSICA: The contract is an input to that process. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Whereas, it was the output, the big goal of the sales process. PAUL: Yes, exactly. So these key events also function from a systems perspective, when you think about moving this to code that event then becomes almost like a message potentially. Could be implemented as say, a message that's being passed from the sales system through to the onboarding system, or something like that. So it functions as the integration point between those two, where the language has to be translated from one context to another. JESSICA: And it's an integration point we can define carefully so that makes it a strong boundary and a good place to divide the system. DAMIEN: Nice. PAUL: Right. So that's where it starts to connect to some of the things that people really care about these days in terms of system decomposition and things like that. Because you can start thinking about based on a process view of this, based on a behavior view of this, if we treat these key events as potential emergent boundaries in a process, like we've been describing, that we discover through mapping out the process, then that can give us some clues as to hmm maybe these boundaries don't exist in the system right now, but they could. These could be places where we start to tease things apart. JESSICA: Right. Where you start breaking out separate services and then when you get down to the user story level, the user stories expect a consistent language within themselves. You're not going to go from cart to return purchase in a case. PAUL: [laughs] Right. JESSICA: In a single user story. User stories are smaller scope and work within a single language. PAUL: Right and so, I think the connection there in my mind is user stories have to be written in some kind of language, within some language context and mapping out the process can help you understand where you are in that context and then also understand, like if you think about a process that maybe has a sales part of the process and then an onboarding part, it'll often be the case that there's different development teams that are focusing on different parts of that process. So it provides a way of them seeing what their integration point is and what might need to happen across that integration point. If they were to either integrate to different systems, or if they're trying to tease apart an existing system. To use Michael Feathers' term, what might be a “scene” that we could put in here that would allow us to start teasing these things apart. And doing it with the knowledge of the product people that are part of the visualization, too is that this isn't something typically that engineers do exclusively from a technical perspective. The idea with EventStorming is you are also bringing in other perspectives like product, business, stakeholders, and anyone that might have more of that business perspective in terms of what the goals of the process are and what the steps are in the process. MID-ROLL: And now a quick word from our sponsor. I hear people say the VPNs have a reputation for slowing down your internet speed, but not with NordVPN, because it's the fastest VPN in the world. I don't have to sacrifice internet speed for better security. With NordVPN, my internet traffic is routed through a secure encrypted tunnel, which protects my data and privacy. I can also have it on up to six devices like my laptop, phone, TV, iPad—all my devices are protected. Grab your exclusive NordVPN deal by going to nordvpn.com/gtc, or use the code GTC to get a huge discount on your NordVPN plan plus one additional month for free. Plus, a bonus gift! It's completely risk-free with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. JESSICA: As a developer, it's so important to understand what those goals are, because that lets us make good decisions when we're down in the weeds and getting super precise. PAUL: Right, I think so. I think often, I see teams that are implementing stories, but not really understanding the why behind that in terms of maybe they get here's the functionality on delivering and how that fits into the system. But like I talked about before, when you're driving a process towards a key event, that becomes the goal of that subprocess. So the question then becomes how does the functionality that I'm going to implement that's described in this user story actually move people towards that goal and maybe there's a better way of implementing it to actually get them there. DAMIEN: Yeah, it's always important to keep that in mind, because there's always going to be ambiguity until you have a running system, or ran system, honestly. JESSICA: Yeah! DAMIEN: There's always going to be ambiguity, which it is our job as people writing code to manage and we need to know. Nobody's going to tell us exactly what's going to happen because that's our job. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: It's like if the developer had a user story that Cinderella's slipper fell off, but they do didn't realize that the goal of that was that the prince picked it up, then they might be like, “Oh, slipper broke. That's fine.” PAUL: Yeah. JESSICA: It's off the foot. Check the box. PAUL: Let's create a glass slipper factory implementer object [laughter] so that we can just create more of those. JESSICA: Oh, yeah. What, you wanted a method slip off in one piece? You didn't say that. I've created crush! PAUL: Right. [laughter] Yeah. So I think sometimes there's this potential to get lost in the weeds of the everyday development work that is happening and I like to tie it back to what is the actual story that we're supporting. And then sometimes what people think of as exception cases, like an example might be going back to that merchant return example is what if they issue the shipper label, but the buyer never receives it. We may say, “Well, that's never going to happen,” or “That's unlikely.” But visualizing that case, you may say, “That's actually a strong possibility. How do we handle that case and bake that into the design so that it actually reflects what we're trying to do?” JESSICA: And then you make an event that just triggers two weeks later that says, “Check whether customer received label.” PAUL: Yes, exactly. One thing you can do as well is like – so that's one possibility of solving it. The idea what EventStorming can let you do is say, “Well, that's one way of doing it. Are there any other options in terms of how we could handle this, let's visualize.” With any exception case, or something, you could say, “Well, let's try solving this a few different ways. Just quickly come up with some different ideas and then we can pull the best of those ideas into that.” So the idea when you're modeling is to say, “Okay, well, there's probably more than one way to address this. So maybe let's get a few ideas on the table and then pick the best out of these.” JESSICA: Or address it at multiple levels. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: A fallback for the entire process is customer contact support again. PAUL: Right, and that may be the simple answer in that kind of case. What we're trying to do, though is to visualize that case as an option and then talk about it, have a structured conversation around it, say, “Well, how would we handle that?” Which I think from a product management perspective is a key thing to do is to engage the engineers in saying, “Well, what are some different ways that we could handle this and solve this?” If you have people that are doing responsibility primarily for testing in that, then having them weigh in on, well, how would we test this? What kind of test cases might we need to handle for this? So it's getting – [overtalk] JESSICA: How will we know it worked? PAUL: Different perspectives and opinions on the table earlier rather than later. JESSICA: And it's cheap. It's cheap, people. It's a couple hours and a lot of post-its. You can even buy the generic post-its. We went to Office Depot yesterday, it's $10 for 5 little Post-it pads, [laughter] or 25 Office Depot brand post-it pads. They don't have to stay on the wall very long; the cheap ones will work. PAUL: [laughs] So those all work and then it depends if you have shares in 3M, I guess, with you. [laughter] Or Office Depot, depending which road you want to go down. [laughter] JESSICA: Or if you really care about that shade of pale purple, which I do. PAUL: Right. I mean, what's been fascinating to me is in the last 2 years with switching to remote work and that is so much of, 95% of the EventStorming I do these days is on a collaborative whiteboard tool like Miro, or MURAL, which I don't know why those two product names are almost exactly the same. But then it's even cheaper because you can sign up for a free account, invite a few people, and then just start adding sticky notes to some virtual whiteboard and do it from home. There's a bunch of things that you can do on tool like that with copy pasting, moving groups of sticky notes around, rearranging things, and ordering things much – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you never run out of wall. PAUL: Yeah. The idea with the butcher's paper in a physical workshop, in-person workshop is you're trying to create a sense of unending modeling space that you can use. That you get for free when you use online collaborative whiteboarding tool. It's just there out of – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you can zoom in. PAUL: And you zoom in and out. Yeah. There's a – [overtalk] JESSICA: Stickies on your stickies on your stickies. [laughter] I'm not necessarily recommending that, but you can do it. PAUL: Right. The group I was working with last night, they'd actually gone to town using Miro emojis. They had something bad happen in the project and they've got the horror emoji [laughter] and then they've got all kinds of and then copy pasting images off the internet for things. JESSICA: Nice. PAUL: So yeah, can make it even more fun. JESSICA: Okay. So it's less physical, but in a lot of ways it can be more expressive, PAUL: I think so. More expressive and just as engaging and it can break down the geographical barriers. I've done sessions where we've had people simultaneously spread in multiple occasions across the US and Europe in the same session, all participating in real-time. If you're doing it remote, I like to keep it short. So maybe we do like a 2-hour session with a 10- or 15-minute break in the middle, because you're trying to manage people's energy and keep them focused and it's hard to do that when you just keep going. MANDY: I kind of want to talk a little bit about facilitation and how you facilitate these kind of workshops and what you do, engage people and keep them interested. PAUL: Yeah. So I think that it depends a little bit on the level of detail we're working at. If it's at the level of a few team members trying to figure out a feature, then it can be very informal. Not a lot of facilitation required. Let's just write down what the goal is and then go through the process of brainstorming a few stickies, laying it out, and then sequencing it as a timeline, adding questions. It doesn't require a lot of facilitation hand. I think the key thing is just making sure that people are writing down their questions and that it's time boxed. So quitting while people are still interested and then [laughter] at the end, before you finish, having a little bit of a conversation around what might the next steps be. Like what did we learn? You could do a couple of minutes retrospective, add a sticky note for something you learned in this session, and then what do you see as our next steps and then move on from there with whatever action items come out of that. So that one doesn't require, I think a lot of facilitation and people can get up and running with that pretty quickly. I also facilitate workshops that are a lot more involved where it's at the other end of the spectrum, where it's a big picture workshop where we're mapping out maybe an entire value stream for an organization. We may have a dozen, 20 people involved in a session like that representing different departments, different organizational silos and in that case, it requires a lot more planning, a lot more thinking through what the goal of the workshop is, who would you need to invite? Because there's a lot more detail involved and a lot more people involved, that could be four, or five multi-hour sessions spread over multiple days to be able to map out an entire value stream from soup to nuts. And then usually the goal of something like that is some kind of system modernization effort, or maybe spinning up a new project, or decomposing a legacy system, or even understanding what a legacy system does, or process improvement that will result inevitably in some software development in certain places. I did a workshop like that, I think last August and out of that, we identified a major bottleneck in the process that everyone in the workshop, I think it was just a bunch of pink stickies in one area that it got called the hot mess. [laughter] It was one area and what was happening was there were several major business concerns that were all coupled together in this system. They actually ended up spinning up a development team to focus on teasing apart the hot mess to figure out how do we decompose that down? JESSICA: Yes. PAUL: As far as I know, that effort was still ongoing as of December. I'm assuming that's still running because it was prioritized as we need to be able to decompose this part of this system to be able to grow and scale to where we want to get to. JESSICA: Yeah. That's a major business risk that they've got. They at least got clarity about where it is. PAUL: Right. Yeah, and what we did from there is I coached the developers through that process over several months. So we actually EventStormed it out at a much lower level. Once we figured out what the hot mess was, let's map it out and then they combined that with some flow charting and a bunch of other more engineering, kind of oriented visualization techniques, state machines, things like that to try and get a handle on what was going on. DAMIEN: We'll get UML in there eventually, right? PAUL: Eventually. [laughter] You can't do software development without some kind of state machine, sequence diagram. JESSICA: And it's approximating UML. You can't do it. You can't do it. [laughter] You will either use it, or you will derive a pigeon form of it. PAUL: Right. Well, I still use it for state diagrams and sequence diagrams when I'm down at that technical level. What I find is that there's a certain level of rigor that UML requires for a sequence diagram, or something like that that seems to get in the way of collaboration. So EventStorming sacrifices some of that rigor to be able to draw in everyone and have a low bar of entry to having people participate. DAMIEN: That's a huge insight. Why do you think that is? Is it the inability to hold that much information at a high level of rigor, or just people not used to working at that sort of precision and rigor? PAUL: I think that when I'm working with people that are not hands-on coders, they are in the everyday, like say, product managers, or stakeholders, to use those terms. They're in the everyday details of how the business process works and they tend to think of that process more as a series of steps that they're going through in a very specific kind of way. Like, I'm shipping a certain product, or supporting the shipping. or returning of certain types of products, those kinds of things. Whereas, as developers, we tend to think of it more in terms of the abstractions of the system and what we're trying to implement in the code. So the idea of being able to tell the story of a process in terms of the events that happen is a very natural thing, I find for people from a business perspective to do because that's how they tend to think about it. Whereas, I think as programmers, we're often taught not so much to think about behavior as a sequence of things happening, but more as the structure we've been taught to design in terms of structures and relationships rather than flow. JESSICA: Yet that's changing with event sourcing. PAUL: I think so. EventStorming and event sourcing become a very natural complement for each other and even event-driven architecture, or any event-driven messaging, whatever it happens to be. The gap between modeling using EventStorming and then designing some kind of event-driven distributed system, or even not distributed, but still event-driven is much more natural than trying to do something like an entity relationship diagram and they'd get from that to some kind of meaningful understanding of what's the story of how these functions and features are going to work. JESSICA: On the topic of sacrificing rigor for collaboration, I think you have to sacrifice rigor to work across content texts because you will find contradictions between them. The language does have different meaning before and after the order is submitted and you have to allow for that in the collaboration. It's not that you're not going to have the rigor. It's more that you're postponing it, you're scoping it as separately. This meeting is about the higher level and you need completeness over consistency. DAMIEN: Yeah. I feel like almost you have to sacrifice rigor to be effective in most roles and in that way, sacrifice is even the wrong word. Most of the things that we do as human beings do not allow for the sort of rigor of the things that we do as software engineers and things that computers do. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: And it's just, the world doesn't work that way. PAUL: Right. Well, and it's the focus in EventStorming on exploration, discovery, and urgent ideas versus rigor is more about not so much exploring and discovery, but about converging on certain things. So when someone says pedant and the other person says pedant, or vice versa, that tends to shut down the conversation because now you are trying to converge on some agreed upon term versus saying, “Well, let's explore a bunch of different ways this could be expressed and temporarily defer trying converge on.” JESSICA: Later in Slack, we'll vote. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Okay. So standardize later. PAUL: Yes. Standardize, converge later, and for now, let's kind of hold that at arm's length so that we can uncover and discover different perspectives on this in terms of how the story works and then add regulator when we go to code and then you may discover things in code where there are implicit concepts that you then need to take back to the modeling to try and figure out well, how do we express this? Coming up with some kind of term in the code and being able to go from there. JESSICA: Right. Some sort of potential return because it hasn't happened yet. PAUL: Exactly. So maybe it's a potential, maybe it's some other kind of potential return, like pending return, maybe we don't call it a return at all. JESSICA: Or disliked item because we could – or unsatisfactory item because we could intercept that and try to like, “Hey, how about we send you the screws that we're missing?” PAUL: Right. Yeah, maybe the answer is not a return at all. JESSICA: Yeah. PAUL: But maybe the case is that the customer says they want to return it, but you actually find a way to get them to buy more stuff by sending them something else that they would be happy with. So the idea is we're trying to promote discovery thinking when we are talking about how to understand certain problems and how to solve them rather than closing off options too soon. MANDY: So, Paul, I know you do give these workshops. Is there anything? Where can people find you? How can people learn more? How can people hire you to facilitate a workshop and get in touch with you? PAUL: Okay. Well, in terms of resources, Damien had mentioned at the beginning, I have an eBook up on Leanpub, The EventStorming Handbook, so if people are interested in learning more, they can get that. And then I do workshop facilitation and training through my company, Virtual Genius. They can go to virtualgenius.com and look at what training is available. It's all online these days, so they can participate from anywhere. We have some public workshops coming up in the coming months. And then they can find me, I'm @ThePaulRayner on Twitter, just to differentiate me from all the indefinite articles that are out there. [laughter] MANDY: Sounds good. Well, let's head into reflections. I can start. I just was thinking while we were talking about this episode, about how closely this ties into my background in professional writing, technical writing to be exact, and just how you have this process to lay out exactly what steps need to be taken and to differentiate when people say the same things and thinking about, “Well, they're saying the same things, but the words matter,” and to get pedantic, that can be a good thing, especially when you are writing technical documents and how-tos. I remember still, my first job being a technical writer and looking at people in a machine shop who it was like, first, you do this, then you do this, then you do this and to me, I was like, “This is so boring.” But it makes sense and it matters. So this has been a really good way for me to think about it as a newbie just likening it to technical writing. JESSICA: Yeah. Technical writing has to tell that story. DAMIEN: I'm going to be reflecting on this has been such a great conversation and I feel like I have a lot of familiarity with at least a very similar process. I brought up all my fears that come from them, which is like, what if we don't have the right person in the room? What if there's something we didn't discover? And you said something about how you can do this in 5 minutes and how you can do this in 15 minutes and I realized, “Oh, this process doesn't have to be the 6-hour things that I've participated in and facilitated in. It can also be done more smaller and more iteratively and I can bring this sort of same process and thought process into more of the daily work.” So that's super helpful for me. JESSICA: I want to reflect on a phrase that Paul said and then Damien emphasized, which is shared understanding. It's what we're trying to get to in EventStorming across teams and across functions. I think it's also like what we're constantly trying to get to as humans. We value shared understanding so much because we're trapped in our heads and my experience in my head is never going to be the same as your experience in your head. But at some point, we share the same physical world. So if we can get that visual representation, if we can be talking together about something in that visual world, we can pass ideas back and forth more meaningfully. We can achieve this shared understanding. We can build something together. And that feels so good. I think that that constant building of shared understanding is a lot of what it means to be human and I get really excited when I get to do that at work. PAUL: I think I would just add to that as well is being human, I'm very much aware of limitations in terms of how many ideas I can hold in my head at any one time. I know the times where I've been in the experience that many describe where someone's giving me a list of steps to follow and things like that, inevitably I'm like, “Well, I remember like the first two, maybe three,” and then everything after that is kind of Charlie Brown. What, what, why? [laughter] I don't remember anything they said from that point on. But when I can visualize something, then I can take it in one go. I can see it and we're building it together. So for me, it's a little bit of a mind hack in terms of getting over the limitations of how many things I can keep in my mind at one time. Also, like you said, Jess, getting those things out of my mind and out of other people's minds into a shared space where we can actually collaborate on them together, I think that's really important to be able to do that in a meaningful way. MANDY: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today, Paul. We really enjoyed this discussion. And if you, as listeners, would like to continue this conversation, please head over to Patreon.com/greaterthancode. We have a Slack channel. You can pledge and donate to sponsor us as little as a dollar and you can come in, hang out, talk with us about these episodes. If not, give me a DM on Twitter and let me know, and I'll let you in anyway because [laughter] that's what we do here at Greater Than Code. PAUL: Because Mandy's awesome. MANDY: [laughs] Thank you, Paul. With that, thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you again next week. Special Guest: Paul Rayner.

What you'll learn in this episode: What charnel houses and ossuaries are, and why they were an important part of people's spiritual lives Why the Catholic Church decorated hundreds of Roman skeletons with jewels in the 17th century Why 17th century nuns were some of the most skilled yet unrecognized jewelers of their day How art and jewelry can help us explore death and other touchy subjects About Paul Koudounaris Paul Koudounaris is an author and photographer based in Los Angeles. He holds a PhD in Art History from the University of California, and he has traveled around the world to document charnel houses, ossuaries, pet cemeteries, and other macabre subjects for both academic and popular journals. His books include The Empire of Death, Memento Mori, and Heavenly Bodies, which features the little-known skeletons taken from the Roman Catacombs in the seventeenth century and decorated with jewels by teams of nuns. His most recent book is A Cat's Tale: A Journey Through Feline History. Additional Resources: Instagram Photos: Rorschach upper half, chest with skull  Hergiswil stomach full shot Weyarn head with problem here due to discoloration behind skull due to back lighting through stained glass window Sonntagsberg felic chest detail Bad Schussenried head and chest Peterskirche munditia in shrine three problems, top over curtain over rope and weird candle Transcript: Today, covering a skeleton with jewels seems odd or downright morbid. In the 17th century, it was par for the course for the Catholic Church, which covered the skeletons of martyrs with jewels and lavish accessories to highlight the Church's power. Author and photographer Paul Koudounaris has spent years researching and documenting these little-known historic treasures, which he detailed in his book Heavenly Bodies: Cult Treasures & Spectacular Saints from the Catacombs. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the skeletons (and human remains generally) were an important part of people's spiritual lives; why nuns were responsible for decorating the jeweled skeletons; and why the Catholic Church's efforts to honor martyrs didn't exactly go as it intended. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Paul, I'm thinking: you have a PhD in art history, so you're a historian skilled in doing research. A lot of what you're talking about isn't just looking at something; it sounds like you had to do a lot of digging. Were the things you were talking about, the traditions and things, was this just passed down and the clergymen knew about it when you came to town, or did you have to go find original documents? Paul: I had to go back to a lot of original source material. Obviously, a lot of this stuff is forgotten about now. I did a lot of digging. It was a good couple of years of very solid research, mostly in Germany. This is very obscure information, but it was rewarding information. When you do research like this, it's like a jigsaw puzzle in getting all the pieces back into place. In the end, you never get all the pieces; you never wholly fill out the puzzle, but I feel like I did a good job of filling in about 98 percent of the puzzle of those skeletons. Sharon: I'm sure you know more than anybody else on earth about this. For all of your books, you've done the photography. Were you into photography before this? Paul: I had played around with photography a little bit before, but not professionally. When I did my first book, The Empire of Death, I actually didn't want to do the photos for the book. I wanted someone else to do them because I wanted to be able to concentrate on the research, and I didn't want to get too distracted by the photos. I wanted to walk into an old charnel house and be able to concentrate on understanding it as a space rather than immediately running in and looking it as a photographer. In the end, there was no one who could do the photos for me. There was no one who wanted to take that trip and get involved, so, I was forced into the position of doing it. In the end, by both doing the photos and researching them, I understood them all the better. It didn't distract me; I think it actually helped me focus on them.  After I had done that book, there was no question that I was going to do the photos for the rest of my books. I liked working that way. I did all the photos for Heavenly Bodies. Photographically it was a very hard task because a lot of them are in cases, so they can't be removed from these glass cases without destroying a lot. It was very difficult, but again very rewarding. I'd like to think by doing it myself and really understanding it, it allowed me to get pictures that, to me, looked more sympathetic than clinical. It might be hard to explain that without looking at other people's photos, but a lot of times, I felt that by taking the photos, I'd strive for a sense of personality because each of them had something to convey. I felt very close to them by the end of this work; maybe not close to them, but close to the people who once venerated them and those nuns who created them. Sharon: I could understand how that would be. In the beginning, you were talking about how you got your PhD in art history and you were looking for the niche. How did you stumble on this death niche?  Paul: I studied at UCLA. I was probably the Fox Mulder of the art history department. I was always the guy who, while everybody else was working on Rembrandt, I'd go off and do a seminar paper about wood cuts of werewolves or something like that. It was the things that were not considered high art and were not considered masterpieces. I was always into these things that were visual culture for common people and visual culture that had been pushed to the margins just because we consider it hokey or unseemly. I was always into that kind of stuff. I was not working on the death stuff while I was in grad school. That came later to me, when I was traveling around Europe and I understood this massive part of people's lives that we had pushed out of the history books just because we were uncomfortable with it, and when I understood the incredibly important role it played in people's spiritual lives to have these bones around. I do want to talk a little bit about the materials that went into the skeleton, if that's O.K. Sharon: Yes, please. Paul: I think that's important because people always ask me, “Are these real jewels or are these replicas?” They want to talk about the materials, and I think this can relate to your audience. In most cases, they are glass replicas rather than real rubies or things like that, but there's a reason for that. When I say they are replicas, a lot of them think, “O.K., it must be cheap,” and it's not. Nature provides what it provides, and it might not provide the materials we need in perfect shapes and sizes and patterns. So, if you were to decorate a skeleton just with real jewels found in nature, it would be very, very hard to match things up to get a perfect pattern and a perfect flow of material. That is a big part of the reason they were using glass replicas, but when I say glass replicas, I don't mean cheap. I don't mean going down to Hobby Lobby or Michael's and buying junk like people would today. There were very few glass-blowers in Europe who could make presentation-quality replicas of real jewels. They were located in the Czech Republic, in Bohemia and in Venice, and they were very, very expensive. When I say replicas, I don't mean cheap. If you look at the skeletons and you see these perfect patterns of similarly shaped jewels with a similar sheen to them, that's because they're replicas, but they would use replicas so they could complete a decorative pattern perfectly rather than relying on what nature could provide.  A lot of them you'll see are wearing what looked like wigs. Those wigs are super important. Those wigs are made of gold and silver wire. Talk about incredible expense. There was only one place in Europe that could make wire in the finest of hair, and it was in Lyon, France. They would have to get this wire made out of silver. The reason they would use this gold and silver wire, this metallic wire and precious metal, to make these wigs for them was because they wanted them to stand the test of time. Let's say I got a nice wig made out of horsehair or something. That would be pretty durable. It's still not going to last 300 years and hold its shape, is it? No way. But a wig made of coiled precious metal wire will stand the test of time, and it will maintain its shape for hundreds of years. That's why a lot of them still have these perfect curls, because they're made out of this incredibly expensive metal wire. These were really, really expensive productions to make. Even when they were made of replicas, they were incredibly expensive.  One question I constantly got asked when the book came out—whenever I did a talk, someone would ask, “How much would this cost to make in modern terms?” I never came up with a satisfactory answer for that because it's hard enough to say, “Well, today's dollar versus dollars in 1950,” and that can be kind of deceiving. Now, let's talk about today's dollars versus guilder in 1612. You're talking not just about converting currencies through a vast amount of time, you're also talking about a different economic system. You're talking about a system back then where you had incredibly rich people and everybody else was incredibly poor. Even if I said, “O.K., if you base it on such and such, maybe it costs $2 million to make,” that's still incredibly deceptive because nowadays, over the course of your lifetime, an average person might make $2 million. Back then, an average person who's out there picking carrots is going to make $2 million in a hundred lifetimes. So, these were extremely expensive even when they were replicas.   Sharon: I'm backtracking a little bit. Were they mixing real jewels with these glass jewels? Would the nuns send an order to the glassblower and say, “I need one this size”? Paul: It could be. Some of them are real jewels. A lot of times, they might use a real jewel for an accent. A lot of them have pearls. Even the pearls are fake, but the pearls are faked to be the exact same size, because nature doesn't provide pearls in equally identical sizes. But again, even the pearls that were fake were incredibly expensive to make because you had to start with a perfect, handmade glass jewel, then they had to make a covering for it to get the sheen of a pearl. They had to make the covering out of ground fish paste and paint over this ground fish paste to seal it so it would soak in. It was incredibly expensive.  One advantage was when these skeletons came to town, they were a big deal and they were going to be venerated, so a lot of wealthy people wanted to be a part of them. You might have a local duchess or duke or local count or baron donate things for the skeleton. They might donate authentic jewelry; they might donate authentic jewels, and they might donate clothing, too. You'll notice a lot of them aren't just jeweled. A lot of them are jeweled, but they also have what looks like outfits on them. Those outfits were donated by local nobility, and then the nuns would tailor them to perfectly fit the skeletons and make cutouts to show the bone. It's funny, because if you were into high fashion at the time, you would walk in and esteem these skeletons as wearing yesterday's clothes. It would be like, “That guy's a couple of years out of season,” because the nobility will donate fancy, expensive clothes for the skeleton's use, but they're not going to donate the clothes they just bought. They're not going to donate their own clothes. If you were a real nitpicker and you were into high fashion at the time, if you had an eye for it, “Yeah, that look on that skeleton is really last year.” That also would help to flesh out—pardon the pun—the decoration of the skeleton, giving them some extra materials. One other thing I think is very touching about these skeletons: a lot of them are wearing rings on their skeletal fingers. The rings often would be donated by the nuns when they were done. You mentioned the nuns, obviously, were very trustworthy and loved the skeletons. When they finished, before they put them on display, the nun had a special ring or a ring that was a family heirloom. She would donate it to the skeleton and put it on his finger. What the nuns donated, these rings, that became kind of their artist's signature, even though the meaning of it is kind of opaque to us. That became their signature, by donating something to the skeleton that would be there when it went on display.    Sharon: Could you tell there was a pattern? There are so many questions I can go through. When you talk about these rings as a signature, did you keep seeing the same ring over and over, or the did the ring have an initial? Paul: While the nuns were donating their rings, each ring was unique. Those rings were often things that had been passed down their families, like family heirlooms, so each ring would be unique. I became good enough in looking at these skeletons that I was able to tell you the same people worked on this skeleton too. I could tell you that; it's not that hard to tell. Your listeners who are really into jewelry, I'm sure they'll know. It's like, “O.K., when I see a wire bent that way and this done to fix it, I know who did that, because there are certain technical aspects that become signature moves.” There were certain convents in Europe that were particularly famous, that were well-known for doing handwork. They might work on several of them, so I was able to tell, “O.K., these people did this skeleton too,” or “Somebody from that convent worked on part of this one, but not all of it.” You could tell just by those signature, little things about the way they would wind the wire or the way they would set in the jewels. Sharon: Did the nuns make the silver and gold wigs? Paul: They would have to bend it. Not all of these were made by nuns. There were some. I should point that out in fairness to my gender. There were some that were done by men, but the vast majority was done by nuns. The most famous group that still exists is in Waldsassen Basilica in Germany. Waldsassen Basilica has 10 of these skeletons, and they are all on display in the church. It's like the Sistine Chapel of jeweled skeletons. The vast majority of those 10—I think it's eight of those 10—were all done by one guy who was a lay brother at the basilica who was also a professional jeweler and a smith. I mentioned some of them would also be in suits of armor instead of being jeweled. The ones that are armored, that armor was pretty much universally made for them by men. Smith work was men's work. Sharon: Wow! How many books have you written? Paul: Four. Sharon: Four books. I'm thinking about all the effort and research and photography that go into one book, let alone writing four of them. So, The Empire of Death, you finished it, and you had the photos you showed the commissioning editor. What more did you learn as you went along, besides the fact that there were skeletons, about the empire of death or the way we view death? Did you think, “I want to say more about this after The Empire of Death”? Paul: The Empire of Death is really a history book, and it's a history of charnel houses. It's not one of these guides to the history of death. It is an art historical tome, and the genre of art is just art in bone. I started on The Empire of Death and then I wrote Heavenly Bodies, and then I wrote a book called Memento Mori, which was a more global exploration because I had been traveling around the world photographing skeletons and bones in ritual contexts. I've got to say it took me about 10 years of work to even truly understand what I mean when I use the word death. When you ask this question about what I learned, I learned a lot, but it was a very slow process. Death is the hardest thing for any of us to contemplate, and oftentimes the most troubling thing for any of us to contemplate. It took me a really long time to understand what lay underneath all that material I was working on. I was working on all this death material, but in the end, I think I came out with a better appreciation of it and understanding. Sharon: Wow! Contemplating death, yes, that is a very difficult topic. We can imagine, but we can't really know. You're a member of the Order of the Good Death. What is that? Paul: The Order of the Good Death is not some kind of heretical, worrisome order. It's not some secret society. It's just a group of scholars and researchers and artists who work on death material. It was founded by a famous mortician, as famous as a mortician could be, I guess I should say, by the name of Caitlin Doughty, who has three New York Times-bestselling books about the way we deal with death in our society. She put this together as a think tank or a group to bring together people who were working within society to broaden our perspectives on death. None of us are out there wanting to die, and we are all hot and bothered by the idea of passing away, but at the same time, we need an acceptance of it, a more positive attitude towards nature as a natural process.  Sharon: Do you have to be invited? Can I get a membership card? How does that work? Paul: No, there's no membership card. There are no meetings. It's funny because of the name. It intrigues people. The term “good death” is an old term. It just means to pass well, to pass with grace and to pass in a meaningful and positive way. That's why she used that term. No, you can't. You don't fill out an application online, and there are no membership cards. There are no meetings. It's a very informal group. It's Caitlin's thing. If she feels that someone is doing work that she thinks fits in with her basic objective of broadening our western perspectives of death, she would like that person to join. Sharon: O.K., so she's the one I have to talk to. Now, let me ask you this. Maybe I have the order wrong, but it looks like your most recent book was A Cat's Tale. Is that correct? Do I have that right?  Paul: Yeah, that book came out this past November. That was my last book. I switched from death to writing about cats. Sharon: Why was that? That's what I wanted to ask. It's like, oh my gosh, is that the same person? Paul: It's the same person. Underlying all of it, there are some similarities. Cats also have been pushed to the margins of history. That's a much longer discussion, but when you ask people about feline history or famous cats who are not internet stars, like famous cats from history, they'll pretty much draw a blank. They'll tell you, “They were big in ancient Egypt, right?” That's about all they know. Of course, cats also have a great background in occult lore, so there are some similarities underlying the cat research and the death stuff. It's just something I wanted to do. I felt that cats, if you read the book—and the book is not technically written by me. The book is technically written by my cat. It says “By Baba the Cat as told to me,” so I'm the transcriber as she reinterprets human history from the cat point of view and puts the cat back into its place. It was just something I wanted to do.  If you or your audience find pictures from that book, they'll realize something: that it's also an illustrated book. My cat happens to be a supermodel. I had been messing around with those photo projects for a long time, making costumes for my cat because she'll wear them; she'll model and she's good. I was making a Marie Antoinette costume for her and things like that, and these were amazing pictures. So, it's like, “Well, I've got to do something with these pictures. Is there some way to put them into book form?” I thought at one point about doing a fashion guide for cats by my cat to show these looks, and then I was like, “No, wait a minute. Let's do a real book, something that will mean something to people.” So, I came up with this idea of a feline history from the perspective of a cat. It's really an emotional book, because cats have had a rough time. Yes, they were big in ancient Egypt. They were also a persecuted and hated animal at one time, and she pulls no punches. She tells you all the highs and all the lows and brings you up to the modern day and the place that cats hold in our lives. So, yes, that is by me. That was the last book. To be honest, from my perspective, being in collaboration with my cat, it's actually my favorite. Sharon: Say that again.  Paul: It's actually my favorite since it's a collaboration with my cat. It's basically a 200-page love letter to my cat. Sharon: Did she like jewelry? That's the most important question. Paul: Well, there's a lot of jewelry as you'll see. Sharon: O.K. What's your next book then? Paul: I would really like to write a history of pet cemeteries.  Sharon: Oh, interesting. Paul: That combines all of it, doesn't it? Death stuff and the cat's back into play. A history of pet cemeteries and famous animal memorials and the way we memorialize our animals. Pet cemeteries have a very interesting history. At this point, I probably know more about them than anyone in the world. I've photographed more of them than anyone in the world, too. I've gone all the way to New Zealand and Australia photographing animal graves. It's a book I had actually started. I had all the research done, and I was going make that my fourth book. Then the idea for the cat book came along, and it's like, “I'm going to sell a lot more copies of the cat book than I am a pet cemetery book in the end.” Think about this: if I mixed the order and did the cat book after, it would have a sticker on it that says, “New cat book by the guy who wrote the cemetery book that hardly anybody ever read,” or it can have a sticker on it that says, “A book about the history of pet cemeteries by this guy who wrote this famous cat book.” You know what I mean? I thought it might help to do the cat book first, so that was part of the thinking. Also I just really wanted to do this cat book at the time, because I love working with my cat.  Sharon: It sounds like you have a good partnership. Paul, thank you so much for being with us today. Do you have a favorite place to buy your books? Do you want them to go on Amazon? Does it matter to you, or is it just what people want? Paul: It doesn't matter to me. On a human level, I always tell people, “Hey, if you can support a local independent store, that's great. If you don't want to, it doesn't make any difference to me where people buy the books.” If they want to buy any of the books, I'm flattered. Thank you, but it doesn't make any difference. Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us today. Paul: Thank you. We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

What you'll learn in this episode: What charnel houses and ossuaries are, and why they were an important part of people's spiritual lives Why the Catholic Church decorated hundreds of Roman skeletons with jewels in the 17th century Why 17th century nuns were some of the most skilled yet unrecognized jewelers of their day How art and jewelry can help us explore death and other touchy subjects About Paul Koudounaris Paul Koudounaris is an author and photographer based in Los Angeles. He holds a PhD in Art History from the University of California, and he has traveled around the world to document charnel houses, ossuaries, pet cemeteries, and other macabre subjects for both academic and popular journals. His books include The Empire of Death, Memento Mori, and Heavenly Bodies, which features the little-known skeletons taken from the Roman Catacombs in the seventeenth century and decorated with jewels by teams of nuns. His most recent book is A Cat's Tale: A Journey Through Feline History. Additional Resources: Instagram Photos: Rorschach upper half, chest with skull  Hergiswil stomach full shot Weyarn head with problem here due to discoloration behind skull due to back lighting through stained glass window Sonntagsberg felic chest detail Bad Schussenried head and chest Peterskirche munditia in shrine three problems, top over curtain over rope and weird candle Transcript: Today, covering a skeleton with jewels seems odd or downright morbid. In the 17th century, it was par for the course for the Catholic Church, which covered the skeletons of martyrs with jewels and lavish accessories to highlight the Church's power. Author and photographer Paul Koudounaris has spent years researching and documenting these little-known historic treasures, which he detailed in his book Heavenly Bodies: Cult Treasures & Spectacular Saints from the Catacombs. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the skeletons (and human remains generally) were an important part of people's spiritual lives; why nuns were responsible for decorating the jeweled skeletons; and why the Catholic Church's efforts to honor martyrs didn't exactly go as it intended. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Paul Koudounaris, who's an art historian, photographer and author whose publications in the field of charnel houses and ossuary research have made him a well-known figure in these areas. Today, he'll tell us about his fascinating work and what it has to do with jewelry. We'll hear about his unusual jewelry journey today. Paul, welcome to the podcast. Paul: Hi. I'm delighted to be here, and I'm delighted to talk about this topic from the perspective of jewelry. Sharon: I was so interested to hear it. Tell us about your journey. Did you get into this field because of your doctoral studies in art? How did you get into it? I don't know what charnel house means, and I didn't want to look it up until I heard your definition. Paul: Well, a charnel house is just a room full of bones. It's from an old Latin word, “caro,” that meant flesh. It's a flesh room, or it was literally a bone room. When they'd run out of room in cemeteries, they would put the bones and skulls in a separate room. They didn't want to discard the bones of their relatives, but they needed room to bury more people. I started out studying that. Of course, that has nothing to do with jewelry, at least not at first, but it does have something to do with a PhD in history.  When I finished the PhD, everyone likes to carve their own niche in life, and I was always interested in the macabre stuff. I was very familiar with the famous charnel houses, giant bone rooms, such as the Paris catacombs, which most people know about as big tourist attractions. As I traveled around Europe and looked in depth, I started to realize how many of these places there were that nobody knew about; that weren't famous but were spectacular. I started to realize how these places, these great bone rooms that were constructed in the 16th, 17th, 18th centuries, had once been a very important part of people's spiritual lives. We had pushed them into the cracks because we are so uncomfortable with the topic of death, and because the churches that administered them were oftentimes embarrassed to own these rooms full of bones because it just doesn't play well in the modern world. So, I got started looking at those bone rooms. I wrote called a book called The Empire of Death that was designed to bring their meaning back into play for a modern audience. Sharon: People must flock around you at cocktail parties. I'm thinking about them being so interested in what you have to say about this. Tell us about how the jewels come into play here. Paul: I was finishing my book called Pyre of Death. It was literally about the bone rooms and the skeletons, the meaning of their décor and their place in people's spiritual lives. When I was finishing that book, I found a topic that was even more spectacular, and it had me hooked. Sometimes in Italy, they would take me into these old bone rooms. A lot of times, they were closed off from the public, so I needed permission from the church. Before I would get into the bone rooms, sometimes I would find these old skeletons that had been put into storage that were completely covered in jewels, and this is where the jewelry angle comes in. They were never part of the bone rooms per se; they were the relics of saints, these whole-body skeletons completely covered over in jewels. I started getting into that, understanding what that was. We can talk about it because it has a very profound meaning in terms of religion.  By the time I finished the first book, as it was coming out, I was in London at my publisher's office. I had taken a picture of some of these skeletons, and I had put them on the commissioning editor's desk. I pushed him the photos and said, “Here's the next book,” and he looked at the photos and was like, “Yeah, O.K., that's the next book. We'll draw up a contract. What the hell is this?” It's hard for your listeners to understand what I'm talking about. They might Google it. If they Google my name, Koudounaris— Sharon: And we will have links to everything and photos on the website when we post this. Paul: The book is called Heavenly Bodies. If they Google my name and the book, they would see pictures of what I'm talking about. They truly are spectacular. We're talking about entire human skeletons, head to toe, completely covered in jewels. It was something utterly spectacular that has apparently been blotted out, pushed aside because of our own anxiety dealing with this kind of material in the modern age. That's how the jewelry angle comes in. Sharon: How did they decide which skeletons were going to be covered in jewelry? Paul: The skeletons that were jeweled had nothing to do with the charnel houses themselves. The bone rooms were filled with people from the cemetery. The skeletons were something different. To understand why these were important, I need to talk a little bit about the historical background. I know since this is a jewelry show, people have different levels of awareness of religious history, so pardon me if some of this is a little rudimentary, but it's very important in understanding this topic.  I think we all know about the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther, in the 16th century, takes the first breakaway group from the Catholic Church and other groups start to leave. The Catholics, who thought they were inviolable and didn't think they could really be hurt by these Protestant break-away groups, by the time they take this seriously, they've lost about half of Europe and they have to respond. They have to produce something to bring people back in their church. The Protestant groups all had different viewpoints, but one thing the Protestants universally disliked was the Catholic practice of relics, relics being those little bits of bone or a lock of hair or some piece of a holy person that would be on display in a church. “Look, we have St. Peter's fingernail.” The Protestants didn't like that kind of stuff. First of all, they thought it was cultish or death-y. More importantly, they thought it was leading people into idolatry, because maybe someone's praying to a fingerbone rather than praying to God. So, the Protestants go around and destroy the relics. When the Catholics decided to rebuild their church and try to bring people back in, they said, “Well, we need new relics, and they need to be spectacular. We need to show them.” The Catholics understood propaganda, and they understood that people respond to visual symbols more than they respond to abstract ideas. So, they said, “O.K., we're going to rebuild the churches. We are going to bring in new relics, but relics that are so powerful, like nobody has ever seen before, that are really going to attract people.” And so they needed new relics. Around this time, they rediscovered the catacombs of Rome, which were early Christian burial sites. They would send people down there to look for early Christian martyrs. Because they gave their lives for God, to the church, early Christian martyrs have a status about equivalent to a saint. They would take these skeletons of these early Christian martyrs from Rome and send them to northern Europe to the battleground areas where they thought they could win people back from the Protestants. Mostly that was in Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Then they would cover them over completely in jewels, and they would put them on display in these newly re-founded churches as a citadel for people to say, “Look, this is the glory. This glory you see in earthly terms, a skeleton covered over in jewels, this is a reflection of the heavenly glory, the heavenly Jerusalem, that God promises to people who are true to the faith, who will fight for the faith, who fight to reestablish the truth faith, the Catholic Church, in the face of its adversaries, much like these martyred people once fought to found the faith against heathens and pagans of the world.” Sharon: When they went back to find these early martyrs, did they have an X on them? How did they know? They just said, “This was a martyr”? Paul: That's the big problem. The Roman catacombs are famous for Christian burials, but other Romans were buried there too. You could do either of them; you could cremate or you could bury, your choice, and the Jews put their people in the catacombs, too. So, how do you go down into these 1,400, 1,500-year-old tunnels and figure out who in there is a Christian versus a Roman or a Jew, and who has actually been martyred? Of course, it's very difficult.  Again, as I said, the Catholics really understood propaganda. These people they were sending north, were they really Christian martyrs? They didn't intend it as a total fraud. They looked for certain symbols. If there was a letter M on a gravestone, they thought, “O.K., well, if there's a letter M, it might mean martyr.” Then again, the gravestones were often broken, so they might see an M, but it might have been part of a larger word. Maybe it was the word Mars; maybe it was someone who had dedicated their lives in the service of the god Mars. You really didn't know, so a lot of it was guesswork.  One of the things the Christians looked for were little vials that had been filled with blood. If there was a vial near the grave that had been filled with blood—or then, it had turned to a brown or a reddish dust—they decided, “That must be a martyr because there's a little vial that had been filled with blood. It must be that person's blood that was spilled at his martyrdom. This is definitely a martyr; take him out and send him north.” What they didn't know is the Romans also had a funerary practice that is basically the backstory for us putting flowers on a grave. The Romans would sometimes put vials of perfume near a grave, and perfume over time can also turn into this brownish power.  So, you're asking how they knew. They really didn't. A lot these people who were reborn as Christian saints may have been Roman fisherman, for all we know, and people would have been primed to venerate a fisherman. It's a wild story historically. They would pull these skeletons out and rebaptize them. They'd call it batizati because they didn't necessarily know who they were. The catacombs had been ransacked and they were not in good condition, so they'd pull these skeletons out and have a baptism. They'd rebaptize them and give them a name because they didn't know who they were. A lot of these skeletons would have names like Felix. Tons of skeletons who were named Felix who were sent forth from these catacombs. Why Felix? Names like Felix or Clemente, names like that. Why? Because they sound like proper names, but they're also the names of virtues. Felix is the base word for felicity meaning happiness. When they call a guy Felix and send him out, they're saying, “We're not really saying he's a saint by the name of Felix or a martyr by the name of Felix; we're saying he is the epitome of Christian happiness because he died for God.” Now, as I said, this was a propaganda war that these jeweled skeletons were involved in, so when they get to Germany, people didn't question, “Yeah, we have St. Felix here.” One of the most common skeletons to be sent out of the catacombs was St. Valentine. Why St. Valentine? The real St. Valentine has always been interred in Italy, but to make sure they were well received—because, again, this was propaganda to re-found the church. There is no Google to stop people from saying, “Oh, St. Valentine has just arrived in our town. Blessed be, we are graced by the God of love.” There's no Google to say, “Wait a minute, this is horrible. Valentine's interred in Italy.” They're just going to accept it for what it is. You asked a good question: how did they know? They really didn't, but these were tools to re-found a church. They were really jewels of war. These jeweled skeletons were tools of war in the battle against Protestantism.  Sharon: You said you stumbled on this, but how come people didn't know these were here? Paul: They did a little bit. It would be unfair to say no one knew. They were still around. I think most of them—it's another question you can asked: what happened to the bulk of them? A lot of them were destroyed, and a lot of them were destroyed for certain reasons. When they fell out of favor, people would rob the jewels from them and throw the skeletons away. I would say most of them, maybe two-thirds of them, have been destroyed, but a lot of them were still around; they were just only known by theologians or people who were really plugged into Catholic history in those places. When I was working in Germany photographing these, I was staying at a friend's house in Stuttgart. Every day I would come back to her house, and she would sit me down at the table and say, “O.K., show me what other crazy things you found in my country that we don't know about.” The bulk of Germans didn't even know these skeletons were there, even though they had been a big part of spiritual life.  There were several problems with those skeletons. First of all, I've already told you that a lot of them couldn't be brought. When the Enlightenment came, they decided, “We need to get a lot of the superstition out of religion.” There were actual doctrines passed in Sumer that said, “O.K., we can't have relics on display without a proven provenance, because we don't want people praying in front of a Roman fisherman's bone.” A lot of them were put into storage for that reason. A lot of them were simply removed by the churches and taken away because they didn't want the modern church to be associated with a skeleton covered in jewels. It's not a good look for the modern world. We have an incredible anxiety over death, plus the church gets accused of being a death cult, and what better proof would you have of a death cult than walking into a church and seeing a jeweled skeleton?  A lot of them got pushed away in one very strange incident. There were some skeletons they felt bad about removing because it was such an important part of local history. They said, “Well, we want him out of our church. We don't want this look anymore. We don't want a jeweled skeleton in our church, but we don't want to throw him away because he's a part of local history and local lore.” So, they cut a hole in the wall. They shoved it in the wall and plastered the wall over, so he's still technically in the church; he's just literally inside the wall trapped in plaster. So, they got rid of them.  It's funny; times change, tastes change. For me, in writing this book, of course I had to get into the theological history, but it was more of an appreciation or reinterpreting them and saying, “O.K., these may have been failed religious items, and they may not have been the skeletons of the people they thought. They may not have been the Christian martyrs, but we can still appreciate them in the modern world as incredible works of art, the finest works of art in human bone that have ever been seen, and incredible works of jeweler's art to cover them like that and make them so splendid. Let's appreciate them in those respects.” A lot of people do love the photos, not for the death aspect or the theological aspect, but for the artistic aspect.  Times do change. There's one in a church in Switzerland. There was a variance to bejeweling them. Sometimes they would put them in suits of armor. If they thought it had been a military martyr, they'd put them in a suit of armor. This one has always been on display and they've never removed it. It's still there in the modern church. I talked to the priest about it at the church in Switzerland; its name is St. Croesus. I was like, “Do you ever get any guff at the church for having this skeleton in armor there?” He was like, “It actually does us some good because the heavy metal kids think it's really cool to come to church because there's a skeleton in armor.” Times have changed. Sharon: That's really interesting. When you look at the photos in your book, Heavenly Bodies, it's just amazing the jewels and how they decorated them. Talk about works of jewelers' art, or any kind of art.   Paul: I think one very important aspect of this is the people who did the work. That is another forgotten chapter in history along with the skeletons. People are often surprised when I tell them these skeletons were mostly decorated by nuns. They weren't decorated by professional jewelers, and they weren't decorated by big-name artists. They were decorated by teams of nuns. People are sometimes surprised when I say that, but we have to understand life in a convent at that time. Remember, a convent had to have an economy. It had to support itself, and all the money didn't necessarily from donations. Nuns were very skilled in certain trades, what were then sometimes called women's arts. They didn't get the same respect as sculpture and painting, the kind of arts that have been traditionally patriarchal, but these nuns were skilled in what were called women's arts, things like textile making, jewelry work, beadwork, wirework.  Some of these nuns were probably the Michelangelo or Leonardo of working with jewelry at time; it's just that we don't know them because our history has always been a patriarchal view. Their names are signed to these skeletons, and they do incredible work. They would send skeletons undecorated up to Europe. The church would get them, and they would turn them over to teams of local nuns. The nuns might take years decorating them, a very costly process, a very time-consuming process, but nuns have the right religious temperament to deal with such an object, They can do it, they have a love for it, and very importantly, nuns had the technical and artistic skill to do this kind of jewelry work, to do this kind of textural work and to do it beautifully. That's another really important of the story. It shows the incredible, high level of skill of these female artists that had been living in these convents to do this kind of work.  Sharon: Also too, I assume that one would think they're trustworthy and not be afraid that the jewels were going to disappear. Paul: Oh, sure! Like I said, the nuns had the perfect temperament to deal with the sacred object, and the nuns obviously were not going to steal anything. Sharon: Why were these jeweled skeletons in on display? Did people parade past them in the church? How did that work? Well, I guess they were underneath in the charnel house. Paul: They were on display in the church. They were never stored in the charnel houses. That only came later when they removed them. They would set them into altars in big glass cases. It's the reason that so many of them are posed. A lot of them are posed in a resting pose, full body laid out, almost like they're waking from a sleep. The reason for that is the best place to put them was in the predella of an altar, right underneath the altar table. Of course, that's a long, thin area. They would usually put them in there, so that explains why so many of them are in that resting pose.  People would see them every time they walked into the church, but you asked about parades. When they were drilling them into the panel, the technical term for moving a relic is a translation. When they would translate the relics into town and bring them in the church, it was a religious holiday for the town. They would parade them in front of the entire town. Everybody would come out to meet their new patron saint. It was a very big event. Canons would shoot off, and there would be a military parade and an escort for them, and they'd set them into the church with much hoopla. These were very revered objects at the time, and many of the local churches would have special feast days in appreciation of the new saint that had come to them, this new, jeweled skeleton. For instance, in one instance in Germany, a town did have a skeleton they called St. Valentine, so of course they all took him to be the god of love. So, every year on Valentine's Feast Day, myriad couples and boyfriends and girlfriends would come and march and stand in front of this skeleton who, like I said, for all we know, might have been a Roman fisherman. But they'd stand in front of the skeleton they were calling St. Valentine, and they would renew their vows and renew their love for one another in front of the skeleton. The town had even commissioned an orchestral piece that would be played every year when people would stand in front of the skeleton and speak their vows. So yes, they were very much on public display and they were very much a big deal.  

Vancouver's Arts Umbrella has been providing access to the arts for hundreds of kids and teens for years - but now, with a new building and a new year underway, there has never been a better time to dream big. Such was the case for the organization's CEO, Paul Larocque, who recently gave us a private tour of the new facility and all its magic. Cat: Welcome Paul. Tell us a little about yourself and how you got involved with Arts Umbrella in the beginning: 1:32 Paul: Well, that's that's certainly something I take great pride in talking about. I moved out from Ontario to work at Arts Umbrella back in the mid 1990s. And I had the great fortune of working with the co-founder and then longtime executive director Carol Henriquez. Arts Umbrella provided me as a newcomer to Vancouver, such an amazing entry point, the people, the artists, the incredible educators that I've had the chance to work with. The sponsors and volunteers, and so many amazing people that comprise the Arts Umbrella community. And, you know, I've been with Arts Umbrella, off and on now for more than 15 of those 25 years with a bit of a hiatus in between where I had the very good fortune of working with the Vancouver Art Gallery. But I started in Vancouver working with this amazing organization that's making such a huge difference in the lives of young people. And today I'm I'm really privileged to be in the role of leading this this group. Cat: Tell us how it was founded and tell us what its purpose is and how it plays into this development for children. Who is it for? What do you do? 6:59 Paul: Arts Umbrella was founded here 42 years ago. And the organization has grown so much since it began which was with a group of 45 students. Really this idea, which was brought about by a group of women artists who had this vision for providing arts education to young people in the community, across all disciplines, and to ensure that the arts could be accessible. It began with a pilot project, which was delivered here on Granville Island in the False Creek community centre. And it was so successful. Cat: How does somebody apply to Arts Umbrella? Is it open to everyone? Because you mentioned the word 'accessible'. Was it initially designed for those who don't have access or don't have funds to buy their own dance classes or music classes? How have you grown to these levels? 10:41 Paul: So for tuition based programs, here on Granville Island or in South Surrey, for example, anyone who has financial need, can come in and very easily applies for bursaries. And we have a huge bursary program. Close to 600 students receive bursaries and scholarships every year. But the great majority of our programs we deliver in communities across Metro Vancouver, where there is demonstrated need and vulnerability for young people. So we set ourselves up in community centres, neighbourhood houses, and hundreds of schools throughout the year through a wide variety of programs that really engage students in visual arts and theatre and dance and in the media arts. It's a pretty extraordinary thing. We're so proud to do it, but we could not do it if it wasn't for the generosity of our community who step up year after year. Cat: For the last year or so you've been running between buildings, because Arts Umbrella moved into a brand new home, which was the former Emily Carr University of Art and Design. So you're still on Granville Island, but you didn't just take a couple cardboard boxes and doodle down the street. You brought in cranes and bulldozers - this was a major event! Tell us about this massive project? 14:28 Paul: I returned to Arts Umbrella to take on this leadership role in the spring of 2016. So a little over five years ago. And one of the big tasks that was given to me by the Board was to really ensure that Arts Umbrella had the expansion that it has long needed. So we specifically were looking at what is referred to as the South building of Emily Carr University...

Ecommerce has come a long way from its early days as a separate part of the company that you set up and just hope to see returns on. Now, ecommerce is pivotal for just about every organization — but there is one faction of businesses that still lags behind. There are $17 trillion dollars worth of B2B payments made every year. Yes, trillion with a T. And half of those payments are still being made manually. Clearly, there is a massive shift that still needs to happen in the B2B space, and Deloitte Digital is helping make those digital transformations a reality.Paul do Forno is the Managing Director at Deloitte Digital, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he helped us understand the struggles B2B brands are facing and how moving them into the digital space could spell a massive change in the ecommerce industry. Paul also dives into some of the major trends he’s keeping an eye on in the ecommerce world, including how ecommerce continues to scale around the globe, most notably in Latin America. Plus, he shares some tips for businesses who are overwhelmed by the amount of channels and platforms they suddenly have to play in. Spoiler: he says do less. Tune in to hear more!Main Takeaways:Massive Call And Response: Bigger brands are struggling to stay connected to their consumers in a way that scales. Today, customers are looking to have a more authentic relationship and connection with the brands they engage with and support. For enterprises, connecting one-to-one is nearly impossible, so they are investing in tools like A.I. and conversational platforms to keep up with this newer generation of customers who crave connection.Dinosaurs Still Exist: So much B2B activity is still done manually, which means that there are trillions of dollars of transactions that could be moving online if/when B2B companies finally shift their activities to the digital space. The problem is that many B2B companies are miles behind their B2C peers in terms of optimizing the digital space for their many personas. It will take a lot of tools and transformation to bring those traditional B2B companies into 2021, but it will be necessary because the next generation is not interested in manually doing business and would much rather work with companies that have effective digital tools.Do Less: Brands can get caught up in the hype and the attempts to keep up with the Joneses. Instead, they should focus on being great at one platform or marketing activity. Plus, it’s critical to never forget the basics — like making sure your email list is generating the leads and engagement it should be to power your business.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Paul de Forno, the managing direction at Deloitte Digital. Paul, welcome.Paul:Thanks. Excited to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you. I was looking through your background and I saw you were on a list of the hundred most influential people in ecommerce and I was like, we need him. We need Paul. Why do you think you got on that list?Paul:I think first of all, in some ways I'm the old guy who's been around carrying the ecommerce flag for a long time, so I've been doing ecommerce for 20 years. When you've been around that long, 20 years ago it was, trust me, ecommerce is going to be big, honest. Most of the big companies just looked at me and said, "Yeah, it's just a tiny percentage. We don't have the time to focus on it." I've gone through the whole lifecycle from, "Yeah, I don't think ecommerce is going to be big," to, "Oh my god. What are we going to do? Everything is ecommerce."Stephanie:Yep, what did your journey look like? What have you worked on over the years, and then what does your role at Deloitte Digital look like now?Paul:Yeah, I've had some pretty interesting projects all along. We help customers at Deloitte, we're one of the largest implementers and SIs all the way from strategy, studio design, implementation, and run ecommerce and digital platforms. Kind of soup to nuts, end to end for some of the largest Internet retailers both B2C and B2B. My background, I've worked with some of the largest retailers and brands in the world, getting them online, selling, and also supply chain and connecting up all of those things.Paul:I've had the great experience of 20 years ago working with some of the earliest big retail brands of them ... It's kind of funny, when they first started, they treated ecommerce like a store because at the size that they were, on some of them, they were like ... And literally, they would call it store number 1099 and that's the way they treated it almost like a completely separate channel over the to the side. Yeah, let's put some money over there and grow and then see what happens. That from over time, then it became more of a challenge of omnichannel.Paul:How do we make sure that the channels aren't fighting against each other because we dealt with some retailers that literally would ... They wouldn't want returns to come in to the store because those sales and we're not getting them credit, right? That came back and if they exchanged for something else, and so they would be internal fighting because the bonuses of the executives weren't aligned. We've gone kind of like it's off to the side, it's big enough to challenge, to now it's almost the reverse. Retail wants to get more love from the ecommerce side.Stephanie:Yeah, it's a funny and an interesting flip that we see. We've had some guests on the show who said the same thing, like when I started out in ecommerce, they had us in a different building, like on the campus that they were at, they're like, that's the ecommerce team, they're doing their own thing. We've had a couple people say how siloed they were and now, like you said, interesting how retail is like, come on, come give us a little love now.Paul:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:When you're looking through all these trends that are happening right now, I know that back in the day you were going to a lot of conferences, you were flying all over the world probably, and now I see and follow you on Clubhouse. Tell me a bit about how you're staying on top of the trends and what kind of things are you discussing now on Clubhouse or wherever else you're doing these virtual events?Paul:Yeah, I'll maybe separate ... Definitely right now as we're speaking it's almost a year to the day that I haven't been on a plane. In the last 20 years, over a 100,000 to 150,000 miles a year that I've been flying around.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Paul:One, my wife has gotten to know me.Stephanie:Hi, Paul, nice to meet you.Paul:But, it's given me a lot of opportunity to connect digitally and do more research and some of the new tools, like you talked about, Clubhouse, and I'll come back to that. I think what this has just done is accelerated ecommerce and how important that is and commerce everywhere and brought it forward, and there's a lot of interesting trends that have popped out. Some of the things that may not be as evident, so in the past year, one of the biggest growth areas just for convenience has been around the growth of commerce around groceries, because we had to, right? You got a lot of the biggest stores growing and anywhere from 70% to over a 100%, and so a lot of the innovation has happened in groceries because it needed to, right? The companies that invested more have done well.Paul:For example, if you look at how Target has done, right? They were able to stay open because they had groceries and so they actually grew and were more profitable and a lot of that why they grew was their investments in shipped, a number of different way they pick from their stores, and so it's amazing that not only did they grow that much but their profitability on the ecommerce channel went up which is almost unheard of in a time like this. They executed unbelievably well.Paul:Then on the other side, another interesting related to the grocery which kind of because it forced people to try something new, the largest growing segment on online grocery was actually baby boomers, and it's because they never were forced to do it. They were always used to going to the store, and so we really see that as a watershed moment of hey, to get over the hump, hey, this isn't as bad. Then as soon as you try something and you do it a couple times, it's going to change how people behave.Paul:we expect the adoption rate going forward for boomers, for example, and older will continue. It won't necessarily be at the same rate, but is an important threshold that they'll continue to embrace it.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. All right, so when thinking about these new consumers who are online who weren't thinking this way before, how are you advising brands to communicate and talk and do things differently? Because it is such a different generation coming online. We've had quite a few people mention you have to think very differently when it comes to customer service or even the whole unboxing experience. People want different things. What are you seeing among your biggest brands right now around what's working to connect with this brand new group of users who are not online before?Paul:Yeah, there's a whole bunch of battling trends that are in here. In fact, on Clubhouse we had a discussion around the eco considerations of delivery, and that got into we brought in a packaging expert and one of the interesting thing that we talked about is that, hey, everybody has all these cardboard boxes, right? People would love to find out opportunities to minimize what kind of packaging and we all probably had the experience of getting a huge package and having one little item in it. I think the whole consideration around eco and environmental is something that I just saw some research, that's at the top of the list of considerations.Paul:Things such as that and packaging and reducing it is a factor of when you're designing for stuff. Looking for opportunities that you can batch up or minimizing the packaging or making it recyclable and also balancing having a great opening unboxing experience, and so you have to balance those things, right? The environmental side and also the brand side, which is hey, the expectations of brands such as Apple put on, on this hey, you want this great experience in opening. There's a lot of non ... Things that you didn't have to worry about even 10 years ago because if you look at some of the studies of what gen Z and beyond are looking for, those considerations are much higher up than they were for other generations.Stephanie:It definitely seems like it can set up some of the newer based for failure though because it seems like you always have to stay ahead and be trying something new where it could kind of take you off your path of building a great product and a great company when you get too focused on some of that stuff. How do you think about the trade-off to stay focused but then also stay on top of consumer expectations that seem to have very rapidly changed in the last year where I wasn't really hearing a lot of consumers talking about eco-friendly packaging and really caring about that, and now it seems like that's a huge thing that we're hearing time and time again about this is a new expectation that you have to keep up with now.Paul:I think a little bit about it is around just the how do you be authentic brand? In many ways, some of the trends that we've been seeing is around less production, right? Some of the advertisement or even things that are helping to actually convert much higher are actually user-generated content that people in authentic ... You want to see how real people act, real people and real products, as opposed to a runway model or a runway person showing off this great ... Because of that, first thing we would say is try and be authentic to your brand and especially right now the over-production is actually a hindrance on many brands.Stephanie:For some of the larger brands you work with, I mean, I could see that being hard for them to want to keep up with the times but then also staying authentic to your brand. Like you said, I know it has gotten some companies in trouble for trying to do the cool thing, keep up with whatever that trend is, try and jump on something. When these big brands are coming to you, what are they struggling with right now and how are you working with them around this new UGC kind of content that a lot of these smaller D2C companies are like, yeah, of course, that's what we're going to do, but when it's a large company, they're like, I don't even know how to do that and how do you flag it and how do you think about the content coming in. Can I even trust it? How are you guys guiding them down that path?Paul:I think that for many larger companies in many ways it's kind of a how do you manage dealing with this on scale? Because in some of the smaller brands, dealing with a few interactions, it's somewhat easier, but when you have thousands and thousands of followers, how do you manage that on scale? What they mostly get concerned of, they want to be closer to the consumer and listen to them and interact, but being able to scale that in both a combination of AI related tools and responses, but also people responses that can do it in scale that are tailored to the brand voice, that's the challenge. We kind of work through different strategies to help them get through that.Stephanie:What are some other things that these brands are struggling with? What are you hearing right now that they're trying to work with you on?Paul:Yeah, and we work with brands both from B2C to B2B, and so I'll actually give two examples just to get a broad spectrum. On the B2C side, I think the ... And depending on the different segment. The B2C side on CPG we're seeing massive spikes because of all the purchases that we've seen especially going through stores, and that's a lot of the food, CPGs are just spiking. They're trying to figure out, okay, great. This is a great opportunity to scale. How do we now embrace and engage and maybe put out some direct to consumer feelers to learn?Paul:In many ways, a lot of the CPGs are going way more direct. Some of the largest scale CPG companies are doing record numbers of doing ecommerce, but they also partner with massive retail chains. They're trying to balance of not stepping on their channel conflicts, and so many are using ecommerce as a mechanism to explore, do special arrangements, special formulations, and learn and get data. As we see, for example, in that area is just there's been so much innovation going on, they're trying to keep up to the pace. They struggle with, well, what do I do first? How do I prioritize on some of these? Most of it is around helping to prioritize and segment some of the ideas to get them into marketplace faster.Stephanie:Trying to keep up with what's happening really quickly, I've seen a lot of them acquiring these smaller D2C companies and kind of putting them in a mini innovation hub where it's like we don't want to disrupt your process but we want to learn from you. Do you see that as a successful strategy for some of these more legacy brands to be able to learn while also keeping their brand identity or is that not really working?Paul:Yeah, I've seen some awesome acquisitions and unbelievable great talent that some of the large ... Just to stick to the CPG space, that's been probably the most aggressive of picking up new brands and learning, right? I think it's actually a brilliant ... That's why some of the premiums are getting paid. It's not just necessarily for the product and what margins, it's also from the know-how, because what ends up happening if you look, and this is something that that's probably the area that Club CPG on Clubhouse is probably one of the largest clubs and they have an amazing talent there, and there's been a number of acquisitions and they're on there talking about their story.Paul:What's really good about doing some of those acquisitions is these people have been very close to the customer, right? They've really interacted, as opposed to you're getting perhaps a new executive who's rotated around, right? These people understand the customer and had that relationship, had to build up the D2C. They really know all the different channels. They're able to provide that voice to the customer and how to go direct so much more. I've seen it be really successful and understand especially some of the early purchases that they've made. It's actually worked out really well, more from the people experience than even the product.Stephanie:It does seem like you can lose sight of that the larger you get, especially the more data you're getting. It's hard to get as informed and be able to actually find trends or themes. When you're working with a lot of these companies, what is your measurement of success when you're like, okay, we are going to transform this company. We're going to bring you guys to 2021 and what's relevant now. How do you look back and see if a digital transformation was successful?Paul:First of all, it's important that we judge success by the way companies measure their success. When we work with different companies, we try and understand what are their outcomes of success and their success can be ... The first thing you think, how much revenue did you grow? But some might not be. If it's a new brand and they want to get out there and they're trying to change their positioning, their goal might be a number of stories that got out, building brand awareness, changing the perspective, and so we always start with making sure that we understand what are their key outcomes and then provide some guidance on how do you get to those key goals.Paul:Looking at from a digital perspective, kind of like as I was saying before, it's also important to have an understanding of the voice of the customer and the sentiment. It's one thing to say what people might ... When you interview them. It's almost more important to see what they actually do, right? And using different tracking NPS scores, using different ... Looking at the data of actual purchase stories and mapping it onto example profiles. That then provides much more of a richer ... Even from compared to people say what they do is different than what they actually do and looking for actual intent in what they've done, and so making sure we're getting the right data is really important as well.Stephanie:Even if they have a lot of different outcomes, it seems like the solutions that you could bring to them could be kind of similar though. From what I've heard, there's a lot of decentralized processes going on, so you need to figure out a way to pull them all in and reduce your crazy marketing tech stack. Have you seen that on your side too that people might have very different outcomes but right now a lot of people have similar solutions or the solutions that you're presenting to them are kind of the same things?Paul:Yeah, in many ways some of our ... What we do to help customers in some ways is to help ... There's probably so many voices in the room and so many stakeholders is how do we help them bring them together and help to prioritize and to facilitate that conversation? Because that's the real hard part when you're dealing ... If you just have your own one product and your own single [sheet] you can make a decision and go.Paul:When you have hundreds of product lines and executives around the world and how do you facilitate the discussion, that's really what we help to do. Be it similar strategy to other companies or not, you need to help bring the internal alignment, and that's sometimes the hardest part because once you get to execute, many companies can do that. The harder part is how do you get agreement and prioritization with the different stakeholders.Stephanie:What kind of advice do you give for anyone who's struggling with that right now? What do you guys do to gain that alignment and have a go forward plan?Paul:Number one thing is start small and try something. You could spend forever talking about it and don't be afraid to fail. Get something in the market. We try and do agile sprints, and so from a development perspective we've been doing agile for a long time but we're also pushing into doing agile marketing so that we get into the same kind of feeding into that, so that okay, let's get something out there, let's try it, learn, and then from there go through the experiment, prove it, or make the changes and then scale, and keep that on an ongoing basis and trying to institutionalize that that it's an ongoing, you need to keep ...Paul:That's the business and how do you keep rolling that, because before when ecommerce was quote unquote more of a side business, it was more of a set it and forget it. Well, let's set it up. We'll set up the implementation, then we'll look at it, we'll make some changes every once in a while where now your core commerce business is your lifeline and some businesses it's over getting to 50, 60% of your overall business. You need to continue to change the priorities and especially as all of the changes that have come down the line from Facebook, from Google, is changing your whole marketing strategies.Stephanie:What about from a B2B perspective? I know earlier you said, okay, we got these two different viewpoints. What do you see in the B2B world? Which sometimes gets forgotten. We don't have many B2B people on the podcast very often and it'd be interesting to hear what does that side of the world look like.Paul:I've been focused more on that in the last year or two because it's such a big growing area. Just to lay the land, to understand how big B2B is, from a B2B perspective, just in the U.S. there's $17 trillion dollars of B2B payments done.Stephanie:Wow.Paul:That's just in the U.S. Right now-Stephanie:That's massive.Paul:It's completely massive and half of that is done manually. Meaning, if somebody writes a check, they send the check off, it's wired. It's not done digitally, and so when we talk about B2B commerce, again, people right away think B2C, it's just about the order, but actually when we talk about ... Or, the other myth or misconception that frustrates B2B people is, well, if just make it a cooler screen and easier to use on the web, then you'll be better, right? Then those are the myths and putting lipstick on problems.Paul:if you actually look into what the B2B challenges are, number one, many B2B purchases are very complex and there's many personas. It's not like, hey, I like this shirt, got it, they converted well, I've optimized, I buy it. Some of these deals are million dollars, half a million, and you need to go to procurement, you've got the business, you've got the people using it. It has to go through an RFP process, you have to buy versus ... Right? It's so much more complex on the number of personas, that's an important thing. There's no quick, easy, CX solution. Not to say that CX isn't important, but it's not like B2B. The first thing, if you start from that premise, that helps.Paul:Then the bigger pieces is traditionally how B2B sold was handshake over lunch, right? Traditionally, middle age guys shaking hands and "Hey, let's do this deal. There we go," and the last thing I want to do is look at the damn website, right? Well, obviously we know that's all changing and last year was the big thing in the workforce, millennials are now the largest part of the workforce. Guess what? Many of those, it's not all men. They're retiring at a very fast rate. Your expectation of your sales people are hey, where are my digital tools? When you talk about B2B commerce, it's about what are all the digital ways to interact, to be easier to do business with as you sell?Paul:In fact, what ends up happening is the top three things that people like for B2B commerce is order status, product information, and just doing a quick re-order. When you look at that, it's more about, hey, how do I make my life easier interacting with my customers? That's just important to understand the difference between B2C and traditionally on B2B side.Stephanie:What kind of opportunities do you see in the B2B world then? Do you see any new innovations coming about? Obviously having a platform that can meet the needs of the customers and to me it seems like it has to be personalized depending on what the business is and how your customers order, but what do you see right now that could be coming in the next couple years to help B2B?Paul:Well, kind of seeing where B2B is in their lifecycle, and so in many retailers, they're now onto their third iteration of a platform from B2C, and for most B2B, they're on maybe their first or they haven't really, right? Many of the B2B clients we're dealing with, oh, we put something up in 2004 and we've just been living with it and we still have to use IE to access it, and so we're dealing with web 1.0. They can't get it on their phone, and so a lot of it is just we need to make it easier for them and looking for ways to make the sales person's life easier.Paul:In the analogy of how B2C commerce is trying to be omnichannel, on the B2B side, it's helping your sales person and CRM. The lines between CRM and B2B commerce have blended together and it's really a tool to help the next generation business person to, hey, all my follow-ups, my data, you might get leads. Did you know your customers are looking at your products? You'll get that lead information, and so that you can follow-up with them or hey, have you deferred ... How many times has the business guy gotten a call? Hey, where's my order? I haven't got it.Paul:They end up spending half their time, and so the other big learning that we've got because it involves sales people so much is that you have to include them early and often during the process. For example, we had this happen one time. We had a customer come to us and say, "Man, we just spent all this money on this great new ecommerce platform for B2B, and we're just not getting the adoption." A couple lessons learned and they asked us to come in and do an assessment. We went in, we started talking to the customers and the customer said ... We ended up hearing this three different ways.Paul:The customer is like, "Oh, man. I love Joe. He's my best salesman, but he told me that if I put my sale through the B2B commerce, he's not going to get a bonus so I just called him to make sure he got his bonus." It's like, oh my god, of course you need to get the sales persons incentives align such that they don't get penalized for using the website, and that was like, oh yeah, that makes sense.Paul:Also, you want the sales people to be ... You want them to evangelize and get them to embrace leveraging it. That's such a key ... That change management in B2B and getting your sales people involved is super key for success.Stephanie:Yeah, which seems like it's a big training aspect to it too, make sure that they fully understand it to where then they can essentially sell the customers on using it and can act as customer service as well, because I'm sure their customers can be like, "I don't know how to order it on here," and if the sales person is like, "I don't know either," that's a big red flag. Are there any other hiccups like that that you've seen either in B2B or B2C where companies are like, oh, this isn't working. This new platform that we're using isn't working and you're like, well, let's talk a little bit about how you guys even thought about implementing it and you left out a big piece like this. Any other stories around that?Paul:Yeah, and number one it's always about ... It's so important getting the voice of the customer and getting representative people early on to provide input and feedback, because what ends up happening is if you don't listen to ... And we've had examples of rolling out systems trying to solve for what we thought was the problem but it wasn't really the problem. The way you bundled orders or the way products were bundled and you prioritized that and you didn't get the adoption, when actually they're focused on another set of problems or departments. That whole piece about getting user input early and often is so critical. The number one thing as you roll that out, you need the voice of the customer.Stephanie:In times like this that are changing so quickly, how do you think about separating the signal from the noise? I can see just so many companies try to keep up with other smaller brands and there's so many new things to try right now. It seems like it's hard to know what's actually going to be a lasting trend where you actually should put that as part of your processes or your platform. There's just so many tools and plugins and things. How do you all think about separating the two and being like, this one's a longer term trend and this is just something short that we see dying off in a year or two?Paul:Yeah, a couple of things that we do and obviously there's things that you want to lay out and over long-term and shorter term, but number one, look for ways ... First of all, understand what your brand promise is. Depending on your brand promise, you might prioritize things different, right? If you're a luxury item versus if you're an item at the dollar store. You have different brand promises and you want to be consistent to your brand promise, and so that's the first thing.Paul:The second thing as far as in general on commerce is continuously look for friction points. Do your tests with your customers and see what are things that are causing them to stop. As you go through all the different steps of the purchasing journey, if you're seeing friction points, how can you reduce that friction? Meaning, hey, this page seems really slow. I don't know why. Let's reduce that. Hey, this content is not connecting well. How can we use other ... For example, and I mentioned it before, hey, getting authentic content of the real users' pictures. That will help people convert higher.Paul:It's an ongoing iterative, so I think what you have is this ... And you're always plotting this, like how can you reduce friction and bang for the buck in a short-term that you can do versus a longer term investment that might then pay back, because it's easy to be like, okay great, we need a 3D VR AR strategy. We're like, well, how is that going to help your $10 item? Obviously that's an extreme example, but if you have a brand promise and you look for ways to reduce the friction to make your life easier, and similarly on the B2B side, that's why I always stress when I define B2B commerce, I like to say it's not about the purchase. It's about making your business easier to do business with, reduce the friction.Stephanie:I love that. What kind of longer term investments are you seeing being made right now that they might not see a payoff for a couple years? Because I know that Deloitte and I think Salesforce partnered on coming up with scenarios for the next three to five years, and so it'd be interesting to hear what you're seeing being implemented based on maybe the scenarios that these companies so all you get is put out there, which ranged to me from happy to very sad scenarios. I'm like, I guess it just depends how you're feeling that day which one you go with. I went with the happy ones.Paul:Especially for companies such as CPG that aren't used to having direct relationship with their customer, for example, big investments that take a while to really understand is the data, right? Getting real data direct from your customers that you then can build on. Those are things that it's not like, okay, a couple weeks, a couple months and you got it. It's something that over time you build up and you start to learn from, and so that's probably one of the biggest areas of especially getting your first party data, and especially since as you might have heard here recently, Facebook is reducing some of the data that they're sharing and how you're able to market and so is Google. Building up your first party data as a brand or building up your email list is so critical, and the benefits that you'll build definitely increase over time.Stephanie:It seems like it's an easy thing to say, yeah, obviously build up on that one-on-one connection with your customers, build up your email list, but it also seems like it's going to be very competitive because every brand is trying to do that now. It seems like every commerce company is turning to a media company that are all trying to have their blogs and newsletters and be on Tik Tok and Clubhouse and everywhere. How do you think brands can compete and build up content that actually pulls people into their community so they can have access to that first party data?Paul:Yeah, so I think the tactics on some of those platforms on core data and getting some of that primary, that's onto ... I think once you get into content and being outward brand, outward bound, I think the focus is and kind of the things that we've talked to our clients about is try and be good on one platform first. It's easy to be like, oh my god, we're so behind. We got to have a Tik Tok. We got to have Facebook, we have to have all the platforms all at once. We kind of guide them on, okay, start with one that's as close to your authentic brand as you can find, and then try and build it and iterate on it and master one before you really try and go after another because, again, there's limited resources and limited people. Trying to spread across all is a lot worse than trying to be good at least on one.Stephanie:Where do you normally find yourself suggesting brands start out at? It seems like Instagram is always a good bet for any company that has product pictures and things like that, but is that usually where you send them to or is it always very varied?Paul:Yeah, it just depends on where they're at. Some brands have ... Again, some of this stuff isn't cool, but SEO and email marketing have some of the best returns and they're super still unbelievably effective. Focusing on those and making sure those are solid, you get some of the best brand for the buck ... You get your bang for the buck. Sorry. Because it's easy to go the shiny happy route, but the core of understanding kind of the SEO and how it's connecting on all your different content and how you're coming up in search results all across and mobile related, that's still ... And again, email marketing on ecommerce, we did a study here recently and saw that some of the most successful brands are their leads are coming from up to 40 to 50% of their net new sales are coming from email related.Paul:We make sure that you have your core fundamentals ready before ... And you might do this like a portfolio, right? Like hey, maybe you're dipping your toe into ... Get a few Tik Tok videos out there and explore with a couple people, and know that you're not going hard on that but making sure that you get your fundamentals down first.Stephanie:Yeah, that's such a good reminder I think just for business in general but to stay focused and make sure that you're not getting caught up in the craziness and everything new. Make sure you have your email list good and that you actually own that and you're sending out good stuff. I don't know if this question could get you in trouble, but I'm going to ask it anyways. What is something you believe around ecommerce that many don't agree with you on?Paul:Huh. I'll have to think about that one. It's kind of funny in some ways because I've come through the whole ... I'm the old guy in ecommerce, and so I've been the one being like, ecommerce is going to be bigger than it is. I feel like in the last six months that now I'm the hey guys, retail is not going away. Retail has been here for hundreds of thousands of years. It's not going away. There's a lot of proponents out there, I won't name any names, but ecommerce is everything, and I'm the ecommerce guy and I'm like, no it's not. Understand it's too easy to say things are black or white for clicks, as opposed to understanding the nuance.Paul:If you look at in China, they just met a massive milestone. They're now over 50% of retail is via ecommerce. If you look at the states, relatively speaking, depending on which calculation you're looking at is anywhere from 17% or 22%, let's say it's somewhere in between that. Less than half of the penetration in China, and so I don't think over the long-term retail won't be 100% ecommerce, right?Paul:Over time, it might get in the U.S., because of the way we're distributed and the ease of buying at retail, you might get up to 50, 60% in the next 10 years but you're never going to get to a hundred and ecommerce is not everything and more the conversation should be retail has just many forms. I'm now pivoted to make sure that we don't forget the importance of these great real life experiences and then how you can balance and leverage commerce online.Stephanie:That's great that you've had to flip now to defend the other side. I'm assuming you think that retail is going to be changing though in some way or shape or form.Paul:Of course.Stephanie:How do you see that playing out?Paul:I talked about the grocery and that's a great example. They are now changing the way they see their line ... Because one of the biggest growth areas in this past year has been about BOPIS, buy online, pick-up in store. You probably saw, like you might have gone to a store and there's all these pickers. If you go, like half of the people in the store were employees picking for pick-ups. Just recently Walmart announced how they're going to re-jigger and automate so that parts of their stores are add-ons will be automated specifically targeted towards BOPIS.Stephanie:Wow, interesting.Paul:They're looking at maybe rolling that out over the next year or two over 200 stores. It's pretty significant. Then if you look at Kroger, they bought Ocado which is one of the largest robot ... Being able to bring together delivery in stage and they're looking for closer to the store to provide support for BOPIS as well. What you're going to see is this the way real estate is leveraged very differently than the big huge aisles with the big cart. It may be optimized slightly differently.Stephanie:Yeah, that's something I've been thinking about optimizing retail locations, and when I think about having someone go and buy my groceries, all the dry goods just get what I need, but when it comes to my fruits and veggies and things like that, I still think people sometimes they have a certain kind of avocado they want, they have a certain color banana they want. It seems like there's a way to segment the store and the stuff can just be picked out for you because you know what you want, and then there's another part of the store that you can still go in and interact with and grab the things that you want because there's actually preferences around them. I don't know what that looks like but it seems like an interesting thing to think about.Paul:Exactly. It's just going to change.Stephanie:Yep. Just a minute before we hop into the lightening round, I did have a question around Internet or ecommerce penetration. You were mentioning that and it does seem like there's a lot of opportunities all around the globe because certain areas have very lower ecommerce penetration because of a lot of reasons. Are there any regions that you're betting on right now or that Deloitte's looking into of there's some opportunities coming up here once X, Y, and Z is solved?Paul:Yeah, the area that has the biggest potential for growth right now that is behind ... If you look at just relatively speaking, to give everybody a perspective, from an ecommerce adoption, China is number one, Europe and the UK are generally a little bit ahead, and a lot of that has to do with they're smaller and it's easier from some of the delivery. The biggest growth area that we see right now in the next short-term is around Latin America.Stephanie:I was just going to say Latin America. I've heard a lot of VCs that you probably follow mentioned how they're going to be up and coming with them.Paul:Mercado Libre based out of Brazil is one of the fastest growing and there's also another shop app that's just skyrocketed out of Brazil, and so they see Latin America, because again they've been behind on the retail penetration and they've been behind, but this whole COVID just pushed that all along. I think that's the next big massive growth compared to everywhere else.Stephanie:I was just looking at them yesterday so it's funny you mentioned that. All right, well let's move over to the lightening round. The lightening round is brought you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud is our awesome sponsor. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Paul? All right. First one. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Paul:It might actually be how this shipper container problem right now, all the ports are behind and not clear when some of the massive packaging and shipping issues around the world get sorted out. That might be the determinant, because if you can't get the products around the world, you might not be able to deliver what you want.Stephanie:That's a good one. Do you see any resolution with that? I don't understand what the problems are there. I've not looked into the shipping container world, so what's happening there and what could solve that?Paul:It's kind of a combo of stuff, and this has happened in a number of industries. It's kind of fascinating because it also kind of effected the way we planned. When you went back to a year ago into the spring and when you went back to all the historical of what happened when you had a large change and potential recession and what the impact was, you went back to, well, the shipping container industry went back and said, well, all our historical ... We got to pull back. They pulled back. What ends up happening, because of the ecommerce shift and spike, their demand very quickly ... They pulled back and it's hard to then build it back up when you're dealing with massive ships and containers around the world.Paul:By late summer, they realized oh crap, we're way behind and we need to catch up. That was part of it. Then you have a bunch of issues of hey, people on the essential front lines are just getting COVID and they can't deliver it, right? You have a combination of conservative planning, COVID actually effecting people, to geopolitical problems of hey, we don't want to receive packages and you're looking at different areas in the world that actually impact that. That's just another part of it that contributed to it. There was an article in Detail just this past weekend in New York Times that went into a little bit more detail.Stephanie:That's an interesting one and that's a lot at play. That'd be a good field or area to watch. Next question. If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Paul:Oh, man. I've actually been kicking around potentially doing ... This might be a little bit of what are the slow ways to be successful at ecommerce, right? Because it's funny because I've been on Clubhouse now for six months and you've got all of these entrepeneurs that hey, make seven figures, eight figures in a month or two, but the thing ... ecommerce seems overly easy to get into, but to scale and be successful is very hard because there's so many factors that play a part of it that you don't have full control of it. If I had a podcast that I would do, I would say the slow way to success to ecommerce.Stephanie:I like that. I've seen a lot of those people on Clubhouse, their bios of I'll scale you to a million. I'm like, nah.Paul:Yeah, right away it's like, next.Stephanie:Yeah, I just don't trust it, not for a second. What's up next on your reading list specifically around ecommerce trends? What are you reading every day to stay on top of the latest?Paul:It's something that I probably spend a couple hours a day reading lots of stuff. I actually use Feedly, I have all these keywords that kind of feed in, and I follow a lot of ... There's a lot of great podcasts out here. Of course, I got to plug my friend, even though he works at a competing company, he used to work for me, Jason Goldberg. The Jason and Scott Show is probably the best ecommerce podcast out there.Stephanie:Yep, I like theirs too.Paul:He's also a personal friend. I've known him for a long time. There's a whole crew of people out there that are passionate about it, and so I'm kind of geeky about it. It's funny, Jason as the retail geek but in some ways I'm more the ecommerce geek.Stephanie:Yep, I like it. That is a good one to stay on top of. I like that. Then the last one, what one thing do you not understand that you wish you did?Paul:Oh, man. I've come more from ... I'm more on the strategy and the technical side and the implementation. While I understand the marketing side okay, I really don't have the in-depth digital marketing side of it and I'd love to be able to spend more time and really focus around that area of how to really effectively connect. That's almost like another side of the brain that I have not spent the time on there.Stephanie:Yep. That's a good one. All right. Well, Paul, thanks so much for coming on the show and giving us a glimpse into what you're working on at Deloitte Digital. Where can people find out more about you or where can they follow you at?Paul:The easiest ... I'm quite active on Twitter, on deFornoP, you can follow me, and I try and share a couple articles a day of ... I curate good stories on both B2C and B2B commerce and people can also reach out to me at Deloittedigital.com or on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much, Paul.Paul:Awesome. Thank you.

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Paul Lindley – author, campaigner and founder of Ella's Kitchen.  We talk about relearning the valuable business skills you had as a toddler and why you should consider becoming B Corporation certified.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on exit strategies and making your business greener. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Paul Lindley's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Paul Lindley, author, campaigner and founder of Ella’s Kitchen. He launched the company in 2006 after being dissatisfied with a lack of healthy, tasty and convenient food for children. He sold Ella’s Kitchen to Hain Celestial in 2013, stepping away from the business completely in 2018 to focus on his social campaigning. In the same year, he was appointed chair of the London Child Obesity Taskforce by Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan These days, Paul is the chair of Robert F Kennedy Human Rights UK and a trustee of Sesame Workshop, the creators of Sesame Street. He also sits on the board of social enterprise, Toast Ale.   We’ll be discussing what it takes to run an ethical business and how you can relearn the unexpected business skills you had as a toddler. Anna: Hi, Paul. Paul: Hi Anna, how are you? Anna: I’m alright, thank you. How are you? Paul: Good. I'm feeling I'm feeling quite positive. Actually. I had my Covid jab this morning. My arm’s sore, but it's an excuse to think positively about the future. Anna: Yeah, yeah. Paul: It is incredible what they've done. Over the last six months as a business or like the last year, but as a business, to take all that innovation through to get 25 million people within, what, 12 weeks? Anna: I know, I l know. Paul: It’s been an awful year, in so many ways. But you know, we've got a lot to look forward, we've got to pick on the things we've learned, we've got to celebrate some of the pivoting that businesses have done the innovation that's come around the resilience, the community that we've built over this time and sort of build back better, but what suffering we've had this last year. Okay, so let's just jump straight in. In your book, Little Wins, you talk about the business skills that we have as a toddler that we unlearn. So, what kind of business skills are you referring to? What kind of practical exercises can business owners do to relearn these skills? Paul: Thank you for coming in straight away with Little Wins – it's such a passion of mine. The book came out of my experience of building Ella’s Kitchen. Inside of me – in this grey haired 50- something-year-old – there's a little boy. I think that was the key within Ella’s Kitchen, that we had this childlike mindset of that we could do stuff, we could have an imagination and a free-thinking that would make me make the business work when everyone was saying that the odds are really stacked against you. So, I took that and I took the heart of our hero, our core consumer, and thought through the skills that toddlers have, and how we use them in our company. Then I took a step back and thought, ‘Well, everyone was a toddler.’ Everyone can unlock their personal potential as an adult or a business owner – not by learning new skills, but by relearning and rediscovering those old ones of imagination and free-thinking and self-confidence. And a whole nine of them that I put in my book. This is to simplify this complicated life that we've got to allow us to make decisions in business or in our personal lives, like toddlers do with much less information, and move forward with positivity and a ‘can do’ mindset. So really, it's about that idea that you can become the best person of the person you once were, the best version of a person that you want to work by having this type of mindset. You can bring that to your personal life, you can bring that to business. The sorts of things that I talk about are the fact that toddlers have such confidence, such creativity – they dive right into things and never give up, they get noticed. They're honest with each other, they show their feelings, they have fun, they involve others, all sorts of things that, to be honest, by the time we're all around four or five years old, we must think, ‘Life's great, I'm only four or five, and I've learned all these skills, I'm going to live to 85. What more is there to come?’ The truth is that whether asked how our society works, whether it's parenting or education, or the corporate system, narrows our vision, and it sort of asks us to conform. If you're a small business owner, if you're an entrepreneur, you want you and your team not to conform, you want you and your team to imagine things that could be possible, and to go and do them to have the wherewithal to do it to go and do them. It's really all about the mindset of the corporation, the culture, the mindset of the culture of the business. You as the business owner, you as the senior person in that accountancy firm, you've got the opportunity to set that. I think it's by setting up systems and processes and recruiting the right people that have the mindset so that you can be brave and curious – both of those things unnecessarily because what is true for any business, or any of us in this world right now: if we do nothing, we keep the status quo, we'll move backwards. The world is changing at such a rapid pace, we have to innovate, we have to try things that may or may not work. We've got to build the confidence and the bravery and the curiosity to experiment and find that way through because that gives us the edge. That's really cultural, I think. You can set your corporate reward system to set bonuses wholly on financial performance, wholly on growing five per cent from last year. We all know we've yet, well, maybe we should have set a five-year bonus that doesn't expect us to grow in any given year, because we're trying things that are going to really deliver in three-or-four-years’ time. We're happy to make mistakes and get it wrong. As long as we can iterate and we can learn, we can adapt, and we can build something from those trials and errors, then we have a better business over a five-year period. So how and I would advocate that we certainly didn't tell Ella’s Kitchen businesses I'm involved with now, though, is build a bonus scheme based on one year wholly on financial performance. Obviously, you need a successful sustainable business that makes profits and that interest should be tied to bonuses. But living the values of the reason why your company exists, I think, should be embedded within the way people are remunerated and motivated and rewarded for contributing to their company. Setting your values, for example, at Ella’s Kitchen, we had five. One of them was to be childlike. So that might be okay for a consumer brand that's got a kind of fun personality for the marketing people to deliver. But if you're the payroll person or the accounts receivable person, how do you interpret being childlike into your work? One of them one year brought ring and renamed the remittance advices to be ‘from my piggy bank to yours’. That was the habit, they reworded it, that was the small thing that they did. But it brought a smile to the person who's in the business that they were dealing with the parent and had to come from, and that person may have been a parent or may not may have talked to somebody that was a parent or may not. It was the way that, just a tiny little language change, we could get people talking about our business. And that was a real ‘thinking like a child’ aspect. That person got that part of their bonus based on that. So that's one thing that’s really around the culture and the systems that you set out.  Ultimately, you want to employ people with an open mindset who do believe in the reason you set up a business and believe that you can get there. Because if you're a small business, it's probably against the odds that you will get there, and unless you stack yourself with people who believe it and will go out of their way to do it because they motivate, you inspire them. They know what the mission of the business is, you know what the business plan is, what it takes to get there – and everyone works on that together to deliver and that's where this idea of thinking like a toddler can really be impactful. Right. So, I'm going to go from starting a business, right through to exit. One of the key decisions, if you're looking to exit, is who you're going to pass your business on to, and are they going to carry on as you would see fit. I guess with Ella's Kitchen, because your vision and your values are so deeply ingrained in the brand, how did you go about making the decision of finding the right successor for the business? Paul: Well, when you sell your business, it's hugely emotional. And it's very personal. So, my experience may be very different to others. Some people want to sell a business, walk away, don't really care what happens. They want the money in the bank, and they created something from nothing and that was their job. I named my business after my daughter. I have, as you said, very personally set the vision and the values of how that the first number of years went for Ella’s – it does matter to me still, what becomes of Ella’s and that it maintains those values. There are two things:  Who do you sell to? Who succeeds you as the chief executive? So, who do you sell to? I sort of thought of this as a horse race in a way and there were three jumps to get over and each of them was associated with the word ‘value’. The first jump to get over, and if a potential acquirer couldn't get over that we wouldn't talk to them, was values. Do they see the world in the same way as we see it? Will they support and protect the way we've seen the world and the way our business has been successful, because we've seen the world that way? Will they tinker with it? If they tinker with it, we’ll tell them now it’ll fail. And don't – let's stop the conversation. But if they do see the world in the same way, if they believe the why of why we set ours up and why it's successful, and they give us the confidence that they won't tinker with that, then we're over that first hump. The second is value – we've all worked really hard to create something of value, you need to pay as the price that that value should deliver – there's obviously an overlap between the two. If there's overlap, great, we can continue the race. If there isn't an overlap, we need to walk away because that's just not recognised. Then we get over that second hurdle. The final fence is really around added value. In my view, it's sort of what added value are they going to do to this business to make it better than we could do without them? Maybe they'll open up more markets, maybe they'll have their own factory, but we can be more efficient and better supply chains, lots of reasons why. We can start to get into the deal and the labels. We were very careful to go through that when we sold. Then it was okay – I stayed on board for another year, I ran that business, and Ella’s Kitchen for $300m business for a year, delivered what we promised and then wanted to stand back. And then it was, well, who is going to deliver and keep the heartbeat of this company going? I'm a big believer in promoting and rewarding from within a company with sort of developing talent and making people feel as though they can get to the top. We have some excellent leaders within the business. Third, the guy that took over had been in the business three or four years, was the sales director, seven years later is still the CEO, a guy called Mark Cuddigan. He is just awesome. He has the, you know, sometimes I joke that perhaps Mark is the best leader that Ella’s has had. But he has taken that business, keeping its heart, keeping its soul, keeping that mission and that vision as a feeling rather than something in the head and he delivered it with his own handprint with a team that has gone on and expanded. The value, the sort of impacts that the business has, both in terms of shareholder return and stakeholder return and delivering a mission to help children live better lives. I think you've got to do your homework for who that person is, if you care what happens next. I think it's absolutely based on values and how people see the world. And we looked for five leadership skills, really. I always do this with any sort of recruitment, no matter what the level. If they aspire to be a leader, if we want them to be able to inspire their team going forward. And those are about emotional maturity, because it is going to be a roller coaster ride. You've got to take the rough with the smooth and you've got to be mature about that. It's about a drive for improvement all the time, never been satisfied that where you are is where you're going to get to, driving your processes, your systems, your products, culture, everything forward all the time constantly. It's about effective communication. So many mistakes in business happen because we don't hear each other properly –and we don't take the time to talk to each other or listen to each other. That effective constant communication is absolutely vital. The final thing is that rather ability to see in the wider context of where our business sits in the industry, where the industry sits in society and what we can control and what we can't. That kind of leads to the fact that you don't have to actually win every battle, you want to win the war in the end if you achieve your vision. You can collaborate with your competitors in certain areas, you can do things together that will improve not only both of your businesses, but also the consumer or the client's life at the end of it by working together sometimes, or working with your suppliers or your customers. So, those are the five things and Mark excels at all of those. I would say the learning that I've seen from others, and which I was determined not to do, was my time was over. If I was going to stand back, I'm standing back. I'm there at his ear if he wants advice and he's counselled to device in the past in attendance tenders. But don't be a backseat driver – let them make the mistakes or the failures that they need to make to understand how they can get to success. Be a counsel. I think that the two most proud things I have about the Ella’s Kitchen experience happened after I ceased to be CEO. The first one is that it became a B Corporation. Mark and I worked with the shareholder and with the team to make sure that we’d qualify for that. I’m incredibly proud that Ella’s Kitchen was one of the first B Corporations in this country. I think the B Corp movement is an incredible movement to nudge forward the way we do business to a much better place. The second thing is, I think for the last five years, Ella’s Kitchen has been voted one of the UK’s Best Companies to Work For. And that's Mark, inspiring his team to really enjoy working there, really feel as though they're achieving something, being rewarded however which way that is for that contribution. We've talked a lot about inside the organisation and what's effective. And of course, you're an advocate of B Corp. A lot of small businesses today are wanting to show customers their ethics and their ethical credentials. How would you suggest small businesses go about proving how ethical they are? Paul: So what B corporations are, they're businesses that meet the highest standards of verified social and environmental performance. They set themselves up for public transparency and legal accountability to deliver on more than the purpose of making money. And they hold themselves accountable for that. What the process is, you have to do this survey, where it's really hard to pass, but you only need 40 per cent to pass. But it's hard to get to that point, since we've looked at all aspects of your business – governance, the supply chains, the people, finance, loads of things. You have to do things to make sure that you'll have a structurally sustainable business, then once you pass that you've got to go into your constitution of your company and change it effectively to say we're not just about shareholder return and maximising that, we're about stakeholder return and optimising that, we care about the environment and the communities that we draw teams from and we sell to. Each of those things are as important as the profit that we make. Think about it, the business that we operate is in the ecosystem of all sorts of other things that are happening in the world. You want a healthy interdependence between communities, the planet, and business and profit that works together. So I can give you statistics to show that B corporations perform better financially over the long term than non B corporations, I can show you that cost base is more efficient, because people stay longer because they see and believe in your mission and it’s verified, and you know where you're going. What it brings it validates your reason, your why, your mission – it tells your staff and your potential staff that you are committed to it and Ella’s Kitchen and some of the new businesses I'm involved with, we've had staff applying, team people applying to the roles because it's a B Corporation. It protects you versus your shareholders, if you like in that you can create more environmentally friendly packaging, but it costs a penny more, you can't be fired for by that because the environmental impact is as important to the profitability of the company. And you create you join this network of wonderful business leaders that really tried to use business as a force for good. I'm a huge advocate of that – it puts pressure on yourselves to live, to walk the walk of what you're talking. But it's ingrained and it helps you think through the social, the environmental and governance aspects to make your business not only the best in the world, but the best for the world as well. My hope is the future of business. And by looking at the first five years of B Corporation in this country, which we've just passed our fifth birthday, it's growing, growing like nowhere else in the world. And those businesses are performing better with more and more loyal and engaged staff. Anna: That's interesting, because I would have thought it's because consumers are becoming savvier, that it would be more of a draw for them. But I never thought that would attract employees who would be looking for the B Corp certificate. Paul: I would just say that back to – it’s people, again, consumers and employees are people wanting to find things that live what ethics and values they have in their head. If that's buying something because it's got a little knitted bauble on the top of the smoothie that going to get towards grannies versus one that isn't maybe if they employee wants to work for somebody that isn't just about making money for the shareholders, but it's also helping society where we've got a problem with loneliness with older people, that person's happy. They're just people an answer that I really think business. I don't think business is really about economics, although it has to make money. It's about psychology. It's about understanding why somebody is going to change their behaviour because you exist, and that behaviour is going to improve their lives, you're going to be able to make some sustainable returns out of it. And we all want to live in a better world because we feel really good when you create a business that does that every one of your team well, and the consumer will as well, because we're all just people. Anna: Well, I can't follow that, so I'll wrap up there. But thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast, Paul. It's been great. Paul: Absolutely welcome, Anna, and I’m delighted to share some things that I hope can help others. You can find out more about Paul and his book ‘Little Wins: The Huge Power of Thinking Like a Toddler’, at paullindley.uk. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more articles on exit strategies and making your business greener. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts, follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lowercase) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

We deal with a lot of stress every day. From balancing our responsibilities to merely reading the news, stress is an inevitable part of life. But contrary to popular belief, stress isn’t always the enemy. A healthy amount of stress allows us to grow more resilient to tougher conditions. Too much stress, however, can lead to the downfall of our well-being. Especially during these exceedingly stressful times, we need to manage our stress levels and build resilience.  In this episode, Paul Taylor joins us to share how we can better respond to stress and build resilience. He explains how too much stress can damage the body and the role of genetic predispositions in our health. Paul also gives us tips on training yourself to handle stress better. Finally, we talk about reframing negative self-talk and forming good habits. If you want to learn more about how to build resilience and handle stress better, then tune in to this episode.     Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year’s time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa’s Anti-ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor   Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time.   What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today.   Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules   Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility   Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce’ Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Train yourself to build resilience and handle stressful situations better.  Discover ways to deal with negative thoughts. Learn Paul’s tips on creating good habits.   Resources Pushing the Limits Episode 183 - Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranov‪a‬ You can also watch Episode 183 on YouTube Watch my interview with Dr Seranova on The Interplay Between Autophagy and NAD Biology.  Learn more about NMN supplements on NMN Bio.  Stopping Automatic Negative Thoughts   Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl   Connect with Paul: Website | LinkedIn The MindBodyBrain Project with Paul Taylor The Better You Program by Paul Taylor   Episode Highlights [05:13] About Paul’s PhD in Resilience Paul is studying psychophysiological resilience.  Gratitude, empathy and mindfulness are necessary. But they are not sufficient factors in  studying resilience.  Paul is looking at the interaction between resilience, mental well-being and burnout in military guys.  Paul is developing a new measure of resilience. It uses self-reports, cognitive batteries and biological measures. [07:57] What Stress Does to Your Brain Consistent exposure to stress changes the brain, both structurally and functionally.  These changes make people less able to control their emotional responses.  People suffering from anxiety, depression, PTSD or burnout were found to have significant maladaptive changes in their brains. [17:38] Daily Stressors That Damage Us Aside from life traumas, the smaller daily stressors can also be damaging for us.  Paul believes that modern life is characterised by input overload that puts us in a constant state of stress. Our resilience and responsiveness to stress depend on factors such as genetics, social support and nutrition. Listen to the full episode to learn more about how nature and nurture inform how stress is processed in the brain. [22:40] Training Yourself to Build Resilience The Goldilocks Effect proposes that for optimal performance, stress levels must be just right. Specific training and repetition can help people arrive at an automated response regardless of their genetic predispositions. Learning arousal control strategies can make you act effectively under pressure. These strategies are also used routinely in training military, police or firefighters.  Breathing is one easy arousal control strategy. Specifically, techniques like box breathing and resonant frequency breathing help manage stress.  Listen to the full episode to learn more about breathing techniques and the autonomic nervous system. [29:49] Using Attention in Stress Response Our attention tends to be internally focused if we’re anxious, depressed or stressed.  If you’re not in danger or no external threat, shifting your attention outward can help minimise your stress. You can shift your attention to your breathing or the things you can sense. Paul says that we all have an ‘inner gremlin’. It’s a character that is responsible for negative self-talk, anger, anxiety and depression. Instead of listening to it, you can shift your attention to the “inner sage” or the best version of yourself. This process of “self-distancing” has been found to reduce people’s emotional intensity. Listen to the full episode to find out how to create a character based on these figures. [35:58] Discharge, Recharge and Reframe When you’re feeling overwhelmingly anxious, first find a way to discharge your stress hormones.  Paul finds that even 30 seconds of intense activity helps in discharging.  Then you recharge by focusing on your breathing. Lastly, reframe your perception by thinking about what your best character would do. [40:44] Dealing with Automatic Negative Thoughts You are not your negative thoughts. You can choose not to listen to them. In Japanese psychology, our automatic negative thoughts are stories we tell ourselves. What matters is what story we pay attention to.   The concept of Hebbian learning suggests that every time you’re repeating a thought, you’re strengthening it.  Interrupt your maladaptive and unhelpful thought patterns and create new healthier ones.  Watch your thoughts with curiosity and remember that you have a choice over the ones you can focus on. [48:10] The Importance of Getting Outside Your Comfort Zone The small circle-big-circle analogy is used to describe comfort zones. The small circle is your comfort zone and the big circle is where growth and adaptation happens.  Since the Industrial Revolution, humans have stopped adapting to their environment. Paul thinks that learning how to be comfortable with being uncomfortable is key to growing stronger and building resilience.  However, you can’t go outside your comfort zone and push yourself too hard all the time. You also have to allow yourself to recover physically and mentally. [53:05] On Recovery Seeking comfort is done during recovery. Recovery isn’t the same as relaxation.  Recovery is doing stuff that energizes you. If you don’t take the time to recover, you’ll run the risk of burnout. Balancing recovery, proper nutrition, good sleep hygiene and high-intensity training drives stress adaptation. [1:01:52] How to Make Good Habits and Stick to Them As humans, we are more driven by immediate rewards. Temporal discounting is what happens when our brains ignore rewards that are far off in the future.  Temporal discounting gets in the way of making good habits and achieving our goals.  In making good habits, it is important to understand your values and connect your behaviours to those.  Breaking big goals into smaller and more manageable goals makes it easier to follow through them. Engaging in enabling behaviour also helps in priming your brain to make your habits.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘And so this is what happens when people get burnout or anxiety, depression, PTSD, is that there are adaptive changes that turn maladaptive. And it's basically because the brain is being overwhelmed with stress, either way too much stress in the case of trauma, or just complaints, daily bombardment with stress, and not enough recovery’. ‘So that resonant frequency breathing or box breathing can be really really useful and to deal with stuff in and of the moment. Just, it's basically autonomic nervous system control through breathing’. ‘So if we take a step back, people who have anxiety or depression or just have a busy mind, you know, they've got a lot of negative self talk going on, they want to get rid of it, right? But these three approaches, and I say, look, getting rid of it, it's not really the objective. It's really about where you focus your attention’. ‘I like to talk about shifting your attention to the concept of your inner sage, which is what the Stoic philosophers talked about, you know, that's the optimal version of you. And that's either my best self, me at my best or some sort of other character that I'm consulted’. ‘If you're sitting listening to this, think of your biggest achievement in your life, something that you are most proud of. And I guarantee you, for almost every listener, it will involve stress and being out of your comfort zone. But we need to hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen’. ‘You only get bigger, faster, stronger, because you hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen right’? ‘And I find that there are a lot of high achievers who are at risk of burnout because they're just on, on, on. And not enough serotonin focused stuff, just contentment, relaxation, connection with others time in nature, all of that sort of stuff’.   About Paul Paul Taylor is a former British Royal Navy Aircrew Officer. Paul is also a Neuroscientist, Exercise Physiologist and Nutritionist. He is currently completing a PhD in Applied Psychology. He is developing and testing resilience strategies with the Australian Defence Science Technology Group & The University of Tasmania. In 2010 Paul created and co-hosted the Channel ONE HD TV series Body and Brain Overhaul. And in 2010 and 2015, he was voted Australian Fitness Industry presenter of the year. Paul also has an extensive background in health and fitness. Additionally, he has experience in leadership, management and dealing in high-pressure situations. His former roles include Airborne Anti-submarine Warfare Officer and a Helicopter Search-And-Rescue Crew Member with the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm. He has also undergone rigorous Combat Survival and Resistance-to-Interrogation Training. In 2012, he practised what he preaches about resilience training and became a professional boxer. Want to know more about Paul’s work? Visit his website or follow him on Linkedin.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can learn to build resilience. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. I’m your host, Lisa Tamati. Today I have the legend Paul Taylor. Now Paul is a former British Royal Navy air crew officer. He's also a neuroscientist and exercise physiologist and a nutritionist. And he's currently completing a PhD in Applied Psychology, where he's developing and testing resilience strategies with the Australian Defence Science Technology Group and the University of Tasmania. This guy is an overachiever. He's done a whole lot of stuff in his life. In 2010, Paul created and co-hosted the Channel One TV series Body & Brain Overhaul. And in 2015, he was voted Australian Fitness Industry presenter of the year. This guy has been there, done that, and you're going to really enjoy the conversation today—all around resilience. He has so much knowledge, and he is with us all today. So I hope you really enjoy this episode with Paul Taylor.  Now before we head over and talk to Paul, I just want to remind you, if you're wanting to check out our epigenetics, what we do with our gene testing program that we have, where you look at your genes, understand your genes and how to optimise your genes, and how they are being influenced by the environment and how to optimise your environment, then please head over to my website, lisatamati.com. Hit the Work with Us button. Then you'll see peak epigenetics, peak epigenetics and click that button and find out all about it. Every second week, we have a live webinar where we actually take you through what it's all about, what's involved and how it all works. So if you want to find out about that, just reach out to me. You can reach me at any time and the support@lisatamati.com. If you've got questions around in the episodes, if you want to know a little bit more about any other guests, or you want to find out about anything that we do, please reach out to us there.  I also want to let you know about the new anti-ageing and longevity supplement NMN that I'm importing. I had a couple of episodes with Dr. Elena Seranova, who's a molecular biologist who shares all the information about this incredible supplement and how it upregulates the sirtuin genes in the body and helps create more NAD. Lots of big words but very incredible. The information in those episodes is really incredible. And if you want to try out this longevity and anti-ageing supplement, have more energy, it helps with cardiovascular health, there's even some evidence now starting to looking into fertility. It works on a very deep level in the body and helps upregulate the sirtuin genes which are longevity genes, helps with DNA repair mitochondrial biogenesis, lots of really good stuff. You probably didn't catch all those words, but go and listen to those episodes.  The product is called Nicotinamide Mononucleotide. It’s fully natural, there’s no downside to this. Very safe to take and will slow the ageing process. If you want to find out a little bit more head on over to nmnbio.nz, that's nmnbio.nz. Right, enough for today. I'm going to send you right now over to Paul Taylor who's sitting in south of Melbourne. Lisa: Well, hi everybody, Lisa Tamati here at Pushing The Limits. Super excited to have you. I'm just jumping out of my skin for excitement because today I have the legendary, Paul Taylor with me. Paul, how are you doing? Paul Taylor: Hi, I'm bloody awesome. How the devil are you? Lisa: Very excited to meet you. Paul is sitting in south of Melbourne, he tells me, in Wine Country. Is that right? Paul: That's correct. Like any self-respecting Irishman, I moved to where they make the wine. Lisa: An Irishman who lives in Australia, who is ex-British Royal Navy e-crew, neuroscientist, nutritionist, exercise physiologist—a bit of an overachiever, Paul. Crikey, could you do a little bit more, please? You're not doing enough. Paul: Well, I’m currently doing a PhD in Applied Psychology, just to sort of finish it—round it all out. And I need to keep myself out of mischief. Lisa: Crikey. I feel very intimidated right now. But I am very excited to have you on the show. Because I have come across you from our mutual friend Craig Harper, he is awesome. And I've been listening to your lectures and your work and your learnings, and just going, ‘Wow, this guy puts everything into such a lovely way - with stories and good analogies’. And so, I wanted to share you with my world, over here with my audience. So today, I wanted to do a bit of a deep dive. But before we get into it, so you are doing a PhD in resilience. So, can you elaborate a little bit on the PhD you’re doing? Paul: Yeah, so what I'm looking at is psychophysiological resilience, because I'm just bloody sick to the back teeth, hearing that resilience is all about gratitude, empathy, and mindfulness. And that stuff, it's important. But as I say, it's necessary, but it's not sufficient. And there is a large component of resilience that has to be earned. And that's the sort of stuff that I realized from my time in the armed forces.So, the positive side stuck is important. But there is a lot more to it. And I actually wanted to explore it and do the research on it.  And I'm very lucky that one of my supervisors, Eugene, is the principal scientist at Defence Science Technology Group. So, they work a lot with the military. And I'm actually doing—I'm just finishing off my first study with the military. So, it's pretty cool for me, having left the British military 16 years ago. Now, I’m doing resilience interventions with the Australian military. Lisa: Wow, I mean, it just sounds absolutely amazing. What sort of things are you—because I agree, like, the gratitude and all that very, very important—but it is, you can't just decide. Like, positive thinking, ‘I'm going to be positive thinking’. It's like a little bit more complicated than that. We need to look at things at a deeper level. What is it that your PhD is actually researching? So, what is the study that you've just done, for example? Paul: Yeah, so the one that we're doing, we basically—it's a pilot study. So, what we call a proof of concept. So, taking a bunch of military guys, and they've gone through training, so I did a full day's workshop, 34 hours with the guys. And then they went on to my app, to be able to sort of track behaviours and log habits and interact with each other and put the tools to the test. And so they did—they've done a survey on mental well-being, another survey on resilience, and another survey on burnout. So I'm actually looking at the interaction between your resilience levels, your mental well-being and your burnout, or risk of burnout in the workplace.  And what I'm hoping to do in further research is to develop further the model or the measurement criteria of resilience. Because at the minute, in the literature, it's just measured through a questionnaire, and it's pretty poor, really. Lisa: Wow, yeah. Very subjective. Paul: Yes, it just gets very subjective. And it's also influenced by—if you're doing a resilient survey, it's influenced by who is actually going to see that right. So, if you're doing it for your employer, a lot of people will actually think, ‘Oh, I better not answer this in a certain way, because there may be ramifications’. So there are limitations with any self-reported questionnaire.  But more lately, there's been some biological measures of resilience that have come out of University of Newcastle, which I'm actually going to be working with that group. So, they've actually lived in something called an acoustic startle response, which is basically you'd be sitting with your headphones on, doing some sort of task. And every now and then there'd be this light noise going off in your headphones, and you'd be all wired up. And they'd look at your heart rate, your blood pressure, your galvanic skin response. And you see there's a spike from your autonomic nervous system, right?  And what they have actually shown is that people who have higher levels of resilience on these self-reported questionnaires, they actually—they acclimatized or they adapt quite quickly to that noise, whereas those who have got lower resilience or who maybe have PTSD or anxiety or depression, they don't habituate to it. So, they're still getting that response, right. So, and this is about what is actually going on in the brain, and particularly an area called the amygdala, that I'm sure we'll get into.  So, I'm looking at a sit back and develop a triangulated measure of resilience. We're taking that maybe acoustic startle and some of the self-reports stuff, and then performance on a cognitive battery when you're under pressure, right? So, trying to then get a triangulated measure or a new measure of resilience. That’s a very long winded—yeah, so we can measure it a bit more objectively. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, because you're working with, like, in Special Forces, I think, in the military. So these are guys that are under immense pressure situations. And looking at our military and vets and stuff, and a lot of them come back with PTSD, and all sorts of mental health issues. And these guys that are coming into this are tough characters, these are not—and then they're coming out with problems. And even not in military, but just in things like my husband's a firefighter. The stuff that they get to see every day. Like he's a really strong, resilient, resourceful human being, but I'm seeing the load, the PTSD sort of load that's coming up over years and years and years are starting to have some bigger ramifications.  Do you see that people that are like super hardcore tough, amazing, but when they are going into these repeated situations and being because usually like exposure therapy is one of the things we do to lower our stress response. If you don't like spiders, and you have to hold a spider every five minutes, you're going to get used to holding a spider, and it no longer will cause a response. By the same token, are you seeing this going flip the other way? Where you're actually getting worse from exposure? Paul: Yeah, so there's a lot of academic research in this area, looking at not just PTSD, but also burnout. So, for me, there's that, there's a continuum of workplace burnout is linked in a way to post traumatic stress disorder, right? It's just that the exposure isn't as extreme. There's not that trauma, but it's the insidious, consistent exposure to stress that actually changes the brain. It changes the brain both structurally and functionally. So what I mean by that is what we're seeing in both PTSD and anxiety and depression, by the way, and workplace burnout, with the advent of brain scanners, they're able to take a bunch of people and follow them for a long period of time—six months, a year, two years. Ask them about their stress levels, and then look and see, does the brain change over time? And what they're actually seeing in that people who are suffering from burnout or anxiety or depression or PTSD, there are significant, as I said, structural and functional changes in the brain. So what I mean by that from a structural perspective, the amygdala, the part of the brain, one of its job is to sense and respond to stress, and it actually becomes bigger. And so there's  increased cells, increased connections and hypertrophy, it's just like your muscles with hypertrophy. And I'll come back to that in a second why this is, right. But in concert with that, areas of their prefrontal cortex, that rational planning judgment part of the brain, and also, another area called the anterior cingulate cortex—they're actually shrinking. There’s damage to those neurons and there's less activity in those areas. And what this means functionally, is it means it's a less-connected brain. And it means it's a brain that is less able to control emotional responses. So basically, the amygdala is starting to hijack the brain. The neuroscientist, Antonio Damasio, he's the first to show in his lab that with that repeated— if your amygdala becomes sufficiently activated, it can actually secrete chemicals to block your frontal lobes. Basically, it says, ‘Talk to the hand. I’m in control of this brain’. Right now we all know that as losing our shit, right? Things are hijacked. But when this is happening repeatedly, what's happening is that there are neuroplastic changes in the brain. Right? And we know that this even happens in unborn children, in fetuses, that if they're exposed to chronic stress in the third trimester, the amygdala will grow bigger and more sensitive. And if we think about it, it's an amazing adaptive response. Because it's basically, they're getting inputs through the placenta and stress hormones. If we're adults, we're getting input saying, ‘This is a dangerous word’. Right? Lisa: Got to be vigilant. Paul: Yeah, the brain is all about survival first, right? It's all about survival. So, and sometimes that adaptive response is maladaptive. Right? In that there are changes that no longer serve us, right? And so this is what happens with people get burnout, or anxiety, depression, PTSD, is that there are adaptive changes that turn maladaptive. And it's basically because the brain is being overwhelmed with stress, either way too much stress, in the case of trauma, or just bombardment. Daily bombardment with stress, and not enough recovery. And I know as a lead athlete, you know about the balance between stress and recovery and just dealing with what you’ve got. Lisa: Never got it right. Paul: And then you don’t, right? Lisa: Burnout was my best friend. Yeah, there's a huge—because I studied genetics, there’s a huge genetic component to this as well. Paul: There is, yeah. Lisa: When you're looking at how long your adrenal, your stress hormones, for example, stay in the body, your COMT gene, your—the RD2 gene, the RD2B gene. Once they actually get the adrenaline, is it going to stay here in the body very long? Or is it going to be out? And they call it like the warrior gene and the worrier. Paul: Worrier and warrior. When I say it, people go, ‘What’s the difference’? I go... Lisa: Warrior as in a Maori warrior, and the other one as in worrying, worrying yourself to death. And there’s a genetic predisposition. And then you couple that with environmental, being overwhelmed with either an event or a series of events, or like you say, the constant bombardment. Because there's a question in my head, like, you and I, there’s history, we've both been in some pretty freakin’ scary situations in life. And those are certain traumas that you've been through and you've carried. But then there is a daily shit that goes on.  Like something that I'm dealing with currently is like, I don't know, but the level of anxiety sometimes is like as high just because I feel like a computer with a million windows open. And it's got inputs coming up. And there's so many—you're trying not to drop the ball, and you're wearing so many hats on so many levels. So that's a different type of anxiety. And it's—and that one that like the big, major ones that you've been through, they sort of self-explanatory that you've got problems with those. But these little ones can be quite damaging too, daily on the mind. Paul: Absolutely. And I like your analogy about having a million windows open. And that's really modern life, is it's just input overload for a lot of people. And it's, even we know that reading the news a lot, and the negativity particularly around COVID is just bad juju, right? Particularly if you are predisposed, or you have underlying anxiety. Then we've got kids, we got that juggle, we got kids and parents, right? And we got work stresses, we got money worries, we got relationship issues. These are all things that our ancestors didn't really have to deal with. Right?  And our stress response system has evolved over the last 2 million years in our ancestors in response to certain challenges. Right, so three minutes of screaming terror on the African savanna when you're being chased by a lion—that's your fight or flight mechanism. And then longer term or really traumatic stress, but mostly longer term stress, like famine. And that's the HPA axis and cortisol. And as you rightly said, different people are different. There's genetic predispositions to which one is dominant, how quick the clearing is. But there's also that, as you rightly say, and a lot of people don't understand this, is that the interaction between nature and nurture. That just because you have a certain variant of a gene, it predisposes you—it doesn't mean you're going to develop that, there needs to be that event. And then we know that those events, when they happen early in life, tend to have a bigger impact. Right? Lisa: So children exposed to trauma are in much deeper in the shit than others Paul: Can be. Unless they have the presence of a caring, supportive adult, often, they can get through it and end up being more resilient. Or they've got a certain variant of a gene, that when they're exposed to stress as a kid, they end up more resilient as an adult. So, it's a really complicated thing. And the thing that I also talk about a lot of people don't, is it also depends on other environmental factors going on. Like what's your nutrition like? Like, what's your sleep like? What's your exercise like? All of those things are hugely, hugely important. It’s a really complicated story, as to whether someone and develop some psychopathology because of exposure to either trauma, or just that insidious day to day stress—what we call de-stress versus used stress, which I'm sure we'll get into. Lisa: Yeah, now that's absolutely exciting because I mean, I preach a lot about doing the fundamentals right. Getting a sleep—at the basis of everything is good quality sleep. And that's not easy. It's not always an easy simple thing. Paul: But check if you're under stress, right? Lisa: Yeah, yeah, because your brain won't bloody turn off. And studying the gamma and dopamine and adrenaline and norepinephrine and all these chemicals that are running out and they're actually controlling us to a large degree, or at least when we're unaware of their influence on the body. But there are things that we can actually do to actually help regulate our own physiology. So I mean, guys and girls in the armies, in the military, have to do this. Or even like I watch my husband and my brother—they’re firefighters—when they're under an emergency situation, three o'clock in the morning, called to a bloody accident, someone's trapped in a burning car type of situation. Like, my husband's just so cool and calm and collected in that moment, like he's completely present. And in daily life, he's quite a shy, introverted dude, right. But when the shit hits the fan, I've seen his like, he doesn't put on a cabbage head. When I looked at his genetics, he doesn't have that predisposition to having adrenaline much. He doesn't have much of an adrenal response. So he'll come up for a minute, and then he'll be back down very quickly, and he’ll be able to control it. And he also understands, I've taught him more about breathing and all that sort of jazz to help regulate your cortisol and all of that sort of stuff. But it is a predisposition.  My predisposition, I have a hell of a lot of adrenaline, testosterone up the wazoo, dopamine. I tend to start really responding and taking action. But I have to actually turn on the prefrontal cortex. I have to really focus on that and not just fly around like a blue ass fly going just running into the burning building without thinking about what the hell I'm doing. So, two different responses—and both are very good responses in a way, if you can learn to manage them and control them and bring them on at the right time. Paul: Yeah, and look, that's where the training element comes into, right? And so, irrespective of what your underlying genetics are, through military training or police or firefighters, they are trained in these situations routinely. And the brain sort of habituates to it and you learn strategies to be effective under that pressure, what we call arousal control strategies, right. So, whether that is—an arousal control can be both ways can be—for people who are generally low, can be getting them up to the right level of arousal. And for people who are a bit too overactive, bringing their arousal down, so they're in that peak performance zone. Let's say the neuroscientist Amy Ornstein talked about Goldilocks and the Goldilocks effect of stress in the brain. That it can't be too little, because when you're bored or you're under arousal, your performance is just not going to be optimal. But also it can’t be too much. And everybody's got a level of arousal that is too much. Lisa: Wow. That's a cool analogy. I like that, Goldilocks. Paul: It's a wonderful analogy. And she's shown, looks at the neurotransmitters that are involved in that—and particularly looking at dopamine and noradrenaline, or norepinephrine, as some people call it, how they're really important in that regulation. But as I say, training, specific training and repetition, can really help people just to get into an automated response. And no matter what their genetic predisposition. Lisa: So if someone is prone to a lot of anxiety, and maybe depression, what are some of the practical—like, if we start talking a few practical strategies now for people dealing with different issues — and let's start with anxiety and maybe depression—what are some of the things that they can do when their amygdala hijacks you? How do you get a grip on yourself and actually change the physiology? Because you feel some big noise happens, or an earthquake happens, or something and you've got that adrenaline just poured out and you’ve got all this stress cortisol and all that, how do you bring yourself down quickly, get yourself under control? So you don't end up in a panic attack, for example? Paul: Yeah, so there's both short-term strategies and there's long term adaptive strategies, right? So, and I'll go into both of those things. First of all, it's important to understand what's going on, right? So this is about the autonomic nervous system. And there are—some of your listeners will be aware of this, but there's two branches of the autonomic nervous system. There's the sympathetic nervous system, and the parasympathetic. And the sympathetic is probably badly labelled because it's not very sympathetic, right? It's the one that increases stress, right? So, and if we think about the response that's going on—so in the brain, the amygdala senses a threat, it sets off a general alarm. And then, the hypothalamus is involved in this, the sympathetic branches is fired up. And for some people, it fires up more than others. But for everybody, when that's fired up, and the vagus nerve is really quite important in this, that's the nerve that connects the brain to the heart, the lungs and all the visceral organs, right? So and the blood pressure goes up, heart rate goes up in order to pump blood to the muscles to give you the fight and runaway, right. And additionally, breathing gets faster and shallower. And then, we know your digestive system is affected and all the blood that is in your digestive system, digesting your food... Lisa: Your peristalsis. Paul: It’s shunted away. It’s shunted away to the working muscles, right, we know the immune system is temporarily switched off, the reproductive system’s temporarily switched off because there's no point in ovulating or creating sperm when you're being chased by a lion. It’s a waste of energy, right? If we think for a second about the long-term consequences when people are in a chronic state of overarousal, even if that's just low baseline overarousal. So, I have a suppressed reproductive system. This is why people who are chronically stressed, and they become infertile. Right? Boom. And this is why they develop digestive system issues like irritable bowel syndrome and stuff like that, which we know can change your microbiome. And then there's a two-way interaction, which we'll talk about later. And the immune system becomes suppressed. That's why people develop—they get sick, and they take longer to recover, whether it's from a wound, whether it's from training load, or whether it's from any type of illness or injury. And then heart damage can happen, right, and with that chronic stress. So that's over activation of the sympathetic branch, and particularly the vagus nerve, right? What we now know is it's only taken our scientists about 3,000 years to catch up with the knowledge of Yogi's, right? Yeah, exactly. Certain breathing patterns can affect your heart and your brain. And I used to think, all that breathing, I used to think it was fluffy bullshit. Until I get into the science—and Jesus, how wrong was I? Lisa: Me, too. I must admit, and now I'm doing it 100 times a day. Paul: Yeah, exactly. So, techniques like box breathing. I'm sure your listeners have probably heard you talk about it. Lisa: Repeatedly. Paul: Yeah, breathe in like the sides of a box. Breathe in for four or five seconds, hold for four or five, out for four or five, hold for four or five. And you can also do a modified box breathe, which is in for four, hold for four, out for six, hold for two. And I'll talk about that in a second. There's also something called resonant frequency breathing, which is also really, really beneficial and can actually enhance your what's called heart rate variability, which is a kind of a window into overall stress on the body.  So, reso-frequency being—you need some equipment to measure it effectively. But generally, everybody listening is probably between four and a half, five breaths and seven breaths a minute. And it's been shown that if you get within one of that, then you could. So I teach people, just generally six breaths a minute, right? So that's 10-second breath cycle, but breathe in for four and out for six. Because the longer breath out—when you breathe in, you are up regulating your sympathetic nervous branch, right? When you breathe out, you're activating the parasympathetic nervous branch. So, the long breath out is really, really key, which is why I talk about the modified box breathing as well. So that resonant frequency breathing, or box breathing can be really, really useful to deal with stuff in and of the moment. Just—it's basically autonomic nervous system controlled through breathing, that’s it. Lisa: Control your physiology in seconds. Paul: And the other thing that goes in concert with that, and my wife uses a lot of this, she's qualified in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy in Japanese psychology. And we're both fans of stoic philosophy. And it is about attention, and all three of these great agree that attention is key. So if we take a step back, people who have anxiety or depression, or just have a beasty mind, they've got a lot of negative self-talk going on, they want to get rid of it, right? But these three approaches, and as they say, look, getting rid of it, it's not really the objective. It's really about where you focus your attention.  So, if you think of your attention, like a light, and when you're in that stress response, your attention, and it is very internal focused, if you're anxious or depressed, or you're stressed about something that's on that particular thing. But it's an internal experience that you're having. So just shifting your attention outward. If you're not in danger, this is—you just have an anxiety, depression, whatever, just look for the colour blue. That's one thing. Just shine the light of your attention somewhere else. Lisa: Like a naughty kid who’s having a tantrum. Just distract them. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And I call that part of the brain your inner gremlin, that’s responsible for anxiety, depression. And but also just negative self-talk and self-criticism, and anger — all of these things. And the key thing to understand is your gremlin’s like a chameleon, right? It can take many guises. But it's like, if you remember the movie Gremlins, when you feed Mogwai after midnight, it becomes energised and turns into the Gremlin. So, when you shine the light of your attention on the gremlin, it becomes energised. So this is where you just shift your attention either to where's the colour blue or what can I smell? Lisa: Or breathing. Paul: Or we like to—or your breathing—yeah, that's another great combination. And I like to talk about shifting your attention to the concept of your inner siege, which is what the Stoic philosophers talked about. That's the optimal version of you. And that's either my best self, me at my best, or some sort of other character that I'm consulting. Lisa: Ah, yes, I heard you talk about this on Craig’s show. And I was like, that analogy that you use, like there was one with your son, Oscar. And him talk, having Derek, I think it was... Paul: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, Derek. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa: So creating a character around these two polarizing figures. I’m always talking about the lion and the snake in my head. Or Wonder Woman in this chicken shit, who’s me. And we all have this positive, amazing self. And we have the self that's full of self-doubt and imposter syndrome, and I can't do this, and angry, and negative, and cynical. And so it's creating a character. So tell that story a little bit. Paul: Yeah. So the character thing is really, really powerful. And so I get people to—you've got to bring this character to life, right? So there's a little exercise, which I'll share with you. And you can share with your listeners where, so I call them your inner Gremlin and your inner siege, right? Or you can say whatever you want. So, what do they say first thing in the morning, right? You write that down. Generally your inner Gremlin is the one that says, ‘Press snooze’ or ‘Not another bloody day’, right? But then you go, what do they say when they're faced with a challenge? And then you write down their character strengths and particularly, you focus on your inner siege, what are the character strengths that you have when you're at your best? And then I like to do a thing called plus ones. Like what are ones that you'd like to develop or have more of? And you write down. So, if it's calm under pressure or being more empathetic, I'm going to write down that my inner siege is calm under pressure, is more empathetic, right?  And then drawing the characters is a brilliant thing because it brings it to life. And Oscar when he drew the characters, he drew Derek and he drew Flash, who has now actually being replaced with Richie. A little side story. I actually bought a book called The Real McCaw from Richie McCaw because I am a big fan of the All Blacks, and particularly Richie McCaw. And I bought his book, and I was wanting to read it, and it friggin’, it disappeared, and I couldn't find where it was. And one night, I went down to Oscar’s room. He was supposed to be asleep, and he's there reading. And he's reading that book. He'd nicked it from me, and he had a highlighter. He's 10 years old, and he's highlighting stuff what Richie McCaw said, right. So now, his inner siege is called Richie, right? But when he drew these original ones, he actually did a speech bubble for Derek and it said, ‘I will crush the good ones and I will be the king of Oscar’s head’. How cool is that? Lisa: And he’s 5 or something. Paul:  No, he was seven at a time. Lisa: 7. Oh my god. But I mean, the hard cold, maybe 6, actually. But sometimes kids are so insightful. Because that's what happens, right, is that when that negative character takes a hold of the negative self-talk, it does crush the good self-talk, kind of becomes the king of your head. If you choose to let it, right? Paul: So my inner siege is called, Jeff. So when I'm struggling, or I need to get myself up, I just go ‘What would Jeff do right now’? Right? And so this is a process in psychology called self-distancing, where you're taking yourself out of the emotional state, and you consult a character or my best friend or whatever, and it actually shows it reduces the emotional intensity. And research shows that people make better choices. They're more courageous, and they make better choices, right. And so that's one, I think, really useful way to shine the light of your attention. So, the process that I use, depending on who's around, right, if someone's having a bit of an anxiety or just a bit of negative stuff, I like discharge, recharge, reframe. So think about it, it’s stress hormones, right? If somebody’s having an anxiety, get it out. You got to discharge those stress hormones. When you run away... Lisa: Go for a run. Paul: ...you come back to homeostasis, right. And I find, even 30 seconds of intense activity is enough. So, you discharge the stress hormones, then you recharge by your breathing, right. So you're doing that breathing and you're focusing on your breathing. And then, so your amygdala hijack is gone now. Use you're focusing on the breathing, and then you reframe and you go, ‘Okay, what would Jeff do right now’? Or ‘What would my character do right now’? Or, if I've written down all my character strengths, what action do I need to take right now to display those characteristics? Right? So the Japanese psychology, Morita Therapy, there's this beautiful term called, arugamama, right? It is what it is. And then they say, ‘What needs to be done’? And the stoics are very much like that — what do we need to do right now? So it's very action focused. Right? And so that is something that I think works for me well. Lisa: Yeah. Because it sort of removes yourself so that you're looking—it's like looking down on yourself. Because this brain of ours is like a thought factory, it just keeps going and talking and chattering and go, go, go, go. And yeah, emotions take over, amygdala often is in control of our prefrontal cortex. And if we can separate ourselves and sort of hover over ourselves—and I've been looking into stuff like what happens after death because I just recently lost my dad and all those questions. ‘How do I connect to my dad on the other side’? All of that sort of jazz that nobody can bloody answer, really.  Paul: Yeah, if you get the answer, let me know. Lisa: Yeah, I’m working on it. I'm really trying to get it out. But a lot of talking about the connection to the other side and opening up those channels, and to me, it's like, okay. So just from a brain point of view, if I just separate myself out from my brain, like, if you believe that we are a spiritual being and so our brain, our body, we're just walking around in this earthly body, but we have a higher self, if you like. So, it’s this higher self looking at that brain going, ‘Oh she's running that stupid program again that she learned when she was seven. It's no longer relevant here, I need to change the recording, and I need to change up’.  So it's just giving yourself a way of separating yourself from the actual emotions that your body is feeling, your physiology is feeling like now. And for me, a lot of it is, when I get anxious and stuff, I will just go and sprint for 50 metres. Like you say, it doesn't have to be long, it might be 2 minutes. It just comes back, reset myself. Sometimes if it's a really bad situation or whatever, I'll have a little cry that discharges more energy. And then I pick myself up and we'll get on with it, and we'll do a breathing, and we'll get back into gear. And just having those little tools in your toolbox can really help you manage the day-to-day crap that comes at us. And even in the big situations, the really traumatic ones, I've used those situations regularly—just remove myself for a minute from the situation, go and get my shit together. And then come back into the situation. And that can really help if you have the luxury of doing that. So, I think these are really, really important because people often think, well, they look at someone like you and all your achievements and all stuff that you've done—or even in all the races that I've done. ‘No, never. I could never do that’. And that's your automatic negative thoughts coming in, your angst, as Dr. Daniel Amen talks about, they just pop up. And you need to realize that that isn't you, that's just your brain doing its thing. And you can choose not to believe that brain when it tells you you're not good enough, or you're not sexy enough, or you're not pretty enough, you're not strong enough, whatever the case may be. You can go, ‘No, I'm not listening to that’. And I'm diverting, and what you're saying, is divert your attention. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And those answers are automatic negative thoughts. In Morita Therapy, Japanese psychology, it's basically, it’s a story. It's a story that we tell ourselves, and there are a number of different stories. And it depends what story we pay attention to. And because when you pay attention to a particular story, when we think about what's happening in the brain, that self-concept, or that idea that ‘I'm not good enough’, is basically what we call a neural net in the brain, right? It's a bunch of neurons that are firing together for a concept or a thought or a particular line of thinking.  And the Scottish neuroscientist Donald Hebb showed in the 1950s, it's called Hebbian Learning. And it's a well-accepted way of the brain works, nerve cells that fire together, wire together. Right? So every time you're repeating that thought, or paying attention to it, you're strengthening it. And he showed that eventually, after a certain amount of repetitions—and we don't know the magic number—but that circuit becomes what's called long-term potentiation. This means that this circuit is primed for firing. And it means that then even neutral information is more likely to fire off that circuit, right? And every time you're paying attention to it, you're strengthening it.  So, the other approach is to go, ‘Thanks, Gremlin’, or ‘Thanks, brain. Thanks for that story that you're telling me. But it's not helpful right now’. Right. And that's where you focus on another story, or a particular affirmation that people might have. A different story, I've got this, whatever, it's another neural net. And every time you're focusing on it, and paying attention to it, you're strengthening it, right? So it's about interrupting the old and maladaptive, unhelpful thought patterns... Lisa: That we all have. Paul: ...and actually creating new ones. And every time you catch yourself—this is why the first part of all of this is about being the watcher. It's about being the watcher in your own brain. And for lots of people, this is a frigging revelation, that they can actually watch their thoughts, and do it with curiosity. And go, ‘Wow, there's an interesting negative thought. And that's an interesting negative’...  Lisa: Great example! Paul: Yeah. And then be curious and go, ‘Well, what would a more positive thought actually be’? Right? So you can trick yourself into having these positive thoughts and every time you're doing it, you're laying down and strengthening those networks in the brain, right? So like anything, like you didn't become awesome at what you did by doing it once and then boom, that's it. It's about repetition, repetition, repetition. So, really the first step is being the watcher, and then just repeatedly intervening, and going, ‘Actually, I have a choice’, right? And what's called in Acceptance Commitment Therapy, the choice point. And Viktor Frankl talked about it, the Jewish psychiatrist who was imprisoned in Auschwitz. And I read his book as a 17-year-old, had a pretty profound effect on me. He said, in between stimulus and response, is the space where we have the ability to choose. And he talked about the last of human freedoms, is your ability to choose how you react to your circumstances, whether they be external circumstances or circumstances in your head, we all have that ability to choose how we're reacting, right. And choosing what we actually focus on. And it's this light of attention, that I think is really, really powerful. So when we wrap it all up in those characters, and then we're repeatedly doing it, and then people are waking up in the morning, and actually spending a few minutes saying, ‘Okay, who am I going to be today? What version of me is going to interact with the world’? And every time they observe negativity going, ‘Well, I say I've got a choice right now. What would Jeff do right now’? Right? Before they walk into their office, and just before you walk in the door, just think, ‘What do I need to do to express those characteristics of my best self’? And especially when you come home, particularly if you've had a shitty day, you just spend 10 or 15 seconds going, ‘Okay, there's a choice here and what version of me, do my partner, my little kids want to see walk into the room’? Right?  And it's just that little mental rehearsal, as you'll have done hundreds of thousands of times as an athlete and every world class athlete does this mental rehearsal because that shit works. Get your game face on. Lisa: Get your game face. I have this analogy and I've told this story before on the podcast but when I was doing this race in the Himalayas and absolutely terrified, 222 K's of extreme altitude... Paul: Jesus Christ! Lisa: And I’m an asthmatic with a small set of lungs, who did mostly deserts for a particular reason. And I was absolutely packing myself, and I got my crew together like two days before and I said, ‘You have to protect me, my brain. You have to like tell me how amazing I am. Every time a negative thought comes up, I want you to sort of shout it down for me and protect me from everyone else’.  And on the day of the actual event, they did that and they really helped me get my shit under control because I was really losing it. Like I was just terrified I'd had a concussion in the build-up, I'd had to rip some ligaments, so I hadn't had a good build up. And it was the scariest thing I've done at the time. And I've done some other scary crazier shit but that was pretty up there.  And on race day, you wake up and you have that moment for a second where you go, ‘Oh shit. It’s that day’. That day you've been  preparing for, for a year and a half, but it's that day and you've got to get up and face down 222Ks in the mountains in extreme temperature, extreme altitude, and no air and things. And I'm putting on my gear, and then that person changes. When I put on my running gear... Paul: That’s your thing. Right. Lisa: It’s my thing. That's my ritual. Paul: That’s your siege. Lisa: When I put on a number, there's a different person in front of you. And that person is a freaking warrior. Paul: Machine, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, in my head. I’m not, but I am in my head, in that moment, I am Wonder Woman. I'm Gal Gadot. I can do any freaking thing and I’m telling myself the story, I'm telling myself the story in order to create the chemicals in my body that I need just to get to the freaking start line and not run the other way because I'm terrified.  And then, once you start and you're in the battle, you're in the battle. You're in it. There's no way out but through. And then you have to bring in all the guns. Over the period of the next 53 hours, I had to bring out all of the stock, sort of things, to get through every crisis that came. And these voices in your head are pretty freaking loud after 50 something hours out there. Paul: That they bloody well are, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, but when you go—because one of the other analogies that I wanted to bring up that you talked so well about in one of the interviews was the small circle and the big circle. And the small circle is your comfort zone. That's you, that's the life that you're living when you're in your comfy world and you're not pushing outside the zone. And you’re staying safe because you're too frightened to jump out into the big circle is what you can be, and your potential.  But out there, in that big circle, it's freaking scary, it's hard work, it's terrifying, there’s risk of failure, there's all sorts of things. And everybody wants to be that big person that does these, lives this full life, that reaches their—none of us will reach our full potential, but we're reaching a heck of a lot of potential. And not living in the safe, little comfortable, ‘I'm scared’ world. And pushing yourself every single today to do shit that hurts, that’s hard, scares the crap out of you. And then coming back and recovering. Paul: It’s critical, right? And I called that big circle, our scientists will refer to that as the zone of productive disequilibrium, right? Lisa: Those are scientists’ words? Paul: Yeah, exactly. So you're out of balance, you're out of whack. But it is where adaptation happens. And this is the problem. So we are by our very nature, we are comfort seekers, right. And just because all of our history has been of discomfort, and so it's pretty natural that we're comfort seekers. The problem is that we have an ancient genome in a modern world. Our genome hasn't changed in 45,000 years, right. And for the vast majority of our human history, we had lots of discomfort, life was uncomfortable, and we became the dominant species on Earth, largely because we adapted better to environmental stressors and pressures than other species right. Now, what's happened in the last 100 years since the Industrial Revolution, particularly in the last 30 years, is that we have stopped adapting to our environment, and we've started changing it. And recently, we've changed our environment to such a level that we're no longer optimally matched to it genetically, right. So when we seek comfort, we get soft, we develop a soft underbelly. And this is what a lot of the positive psychology people do not talk about, is that getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.  And you can just do this, quite simply, if you're sitting listening to this, think of your biggest achievement in your life, something that you are most proud of. And I guarantee you, for almost every listener, it will involve stress and being out of your comfort zone. But we need to hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen. And lots of people spend most of their life in that little small circle, the comfort zone, and they dip their toe into the uncomfortable zone of productive disequilibrium. They go, ‘This is uncomfortable. I'm getting right out of here’. No good shit ever happened in your comfort zone. Right? Lisa: It’s a quote from Paul Taylor, ‘No good shit ever happens in your comfort zone’. You gotta put that one on the wall. Paul: It’s like past 2am. Right?  That's the thing, no good shit happens there. So, it is about seeking discomfort. And one of my things, which you actually exemplify much better than me, but it’s that get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Right? Yeah, that's really key. And I think we have, as a generation, particularly in the West, we have got comfortable with being comfortable. And we are comfort seekers. Lisa: Getting cosy all the time. Paul: It's all, it's served up to us everywhere. And we're prompted to buy things and do things that make us comfortable. And it's natural to want to go there. But it's not self-serving. Lisa: But our biology isn't, our epi genome isn't suited. Paul: Absolutely not. Lisa: Getting out of that thermoneutral zone, for example, like cold showers, cold water, hot. All of these things that are outside the neutral zone are where the change happens, from a physiological point of view. If I hop into a sauna, I'm going to create heat-shock proteins, I’m gonna sweat. That's going to cause all this cascade of events in my body that will make me stronger. The next time when I go to the gym and I work out with weights, then I'm going to be sore and I'm going to be breaking down the tissues. What happens is a cascade of events that makes me stronger for next week. Paul: And here's the thing, right, that if somebody wants, if somebody goes one, if someone hasn’t been trained for ages and particularly, they’re bloke. And they go riding got to get back and then they go to a CrossFit class or F 45 hard core. And they go, ‘Jesus. That was ridiculous. I'm never doing that again’. But then you're not going to adapt, right? You only get bigger, faster, stronger, because you hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen right. Now, seeking comfort, we should do that when we're in recovery, right? But a lot of people, and we should really define the difference between recovery and relaxation. Right? Recovery isn't sitting with your feet up with a bottle of wine watching Netflix, right? Recovery is stuff that is actually energising you, right? It’s doing the breathing stuff, it’s doing the meditation, doing the tai chi, the qi gong, those sorts of things, yoga. Or for some people, it's drawing, it's reading a book, it's connecting with others, it's gardening, it's spending time in nature. These are all things that really help us with that balance between stress and recovery. And when, if we get that right, the stress becomes used stress. And if we are just exposed to that too much or don't get the recovery, right, it's de stress. And then we can go into burnout/overtraining syndrome, which then when you look at the physiology between overtrained athletes and burnt out executives and depressed people, it’s almost identical. Lisa: Yeah. And like, I've had to try to get my head around this because when you're an athlete—and I grew up in a household where being tough was cool. And physical toughness and mental toughness were what was valued and what was rewarded in my family. So therefore, I have this complete construct in my head that if you're not tough, and you're not hard ass all the time, then you're useless. And I had to deconstruct that a little bit because that lead me to burnout, that broke me, that lead to hell of a lot of pain in sickness and all sorts of things. Now, as I'm hopefully older and wiser, I know that my body also has a full on and it has to have a full off. And that recovery is really important. And that recovery can be cuddling the cat, it can be going to the beach with my husband and just staring at the waves for half an hour to recover. It doesn't have to be something epic, and it can be something like the sauna

Today, Lucy Branch talks to Paul Day, about his creative journey and inspiration. Lucy: Paul has long been one of my favourite sculptors and is such a self-deprecating character that he says he isn't even worthy of such a job title. He produces bronze friezes and sculptural works that have such style and imagination that I have found myself lost in the stories they tell for many hours. He has won several competitions and prizes, many of his works you will know like, The Meeting Place, in St Pancras Station where two lovers tower above the public in a clinch that makes everyone long for such a lover. Other commissions include The Battle of Britain, a magnificent war memorial on London Embankment, The Queen Mother Memorial in London and The Urban Comedy in Brussels. Join Us And Be Inspired By Sculpture. You can find images of Paul Day's Work and a transcription of the interview at Bronze Friezes with Paul Day - SCULPTURE VULTURE If you are searching for your next novel and are interested in the dark side of the art world, you can download one of my novels for free at Sculpture Vulture Books where sculpture is always at the heart of the story. This Podcast was brought to you by Antique Bronze (Experts in the Conservation and Restoration of Sculpture and Architectural Features) Snippet From The Interview: Today I began our discussion by asking him, my favourite question, have you always been creative? Lucy: Have you always been creative? Paul: As far as I can remember, as a child, I enjoyed from the very beginning drawing, colouring in, painting pictures, and cutting things out with scissors, and I had a mother who was, and is still, very encouraging in arty and crafty things. But also, I was number two to an elder brother who, at three years of age when I turned up, already occupied the main stage in all the family gatherings. He was a natural imitator, raconteur, and loved the limelight. Lucy: Tough act to follow. Paul: Well, quite. I was the younger brother who, obviously, with three years less in development of language and everything else, could never keep up with or overshadow this strong and powerful figure in my life. And I think that drawing was the one way I discovered quite early on, to draw some of that limelight and attention onto myself, and to be able to make, for example, members of the family laugh and smile with my pictures, whereas I wasn't able to do that with my oratory or my ability to tell jokes, of which I don't really have an ability to tell jokes.

Paul: So Amy, I was talking to somebody the other day and they told me that you had quite a number of like interesting little odd jobs. So I'm interested, so could you tell me a bit about that.Amy: I don't know how odd they were. I don't know. When I was in university, part time jobs, I used to work in restaurants and—the usual stuff—restaurants, and I think my favorite was working in a nightclub. It was a really, really big nightclub and I used to work on the floor, just kind of cleaning up, looking after all the drunk patrons.And my first night there was—actually, one of my favorite DJs was on, so that was great. I got to listen to really good music whilst finding money on the floor, and cleaning up after folks. It was really good.Paul: You found some money on the floor.Amy: Yeah. You know, it was a busy club. Really, really full, a good couple of thousand people in there. And I guess people were doing whatever they were doing and they would drop big wads of cash. And because I was the person to clean up all the glass bottles, then I would find the wads of cash on the floor. So it was good. I'd get my wages, I'd get tips, and then I would get my own personal tips from finding money on the floor.Paul: So you must have found like a whole range of different things, like, what else did you find?Amy: Yeah. A little wraps of things, and then packets of things, yeah. I mean, I had to work hard for the money. It wasn't easy because the place was full, absolutely rammed of people. Everybody is incredibly drunk or whatever and they all just want to dance and have a good time. And I have to make sure there's no broken glass for safety reasons, obviously. So I'm pushing my way through the crowd and keeping eyes on the floor constantly with a torch. And alongside the broken glass that I would sweep up would be, yeah, wads of cash, sometimes little purses, little bags, things like that.When I find, like, identification for things—when it was a purse, I would do the right thing with it, hand it in but it was just a wad up, like a rolled-up set of notes, I would just put them in my pocket for me, basically.Paul: Yeah, it's difficult to know what to do with cash because you're handing it to someone who—well, it's cash, isn't it?Amy: I know.Paul: Yeah, yeah.Amy: I remember finding some driving license and student ID, and I took—it was actually the same university that I went to at the time, and I just took it to uni when I was going during the week. And I handed it in to make sure that it got back to the owner because you know that's the worst thing about when you lose your purse or your wallet. The cash, you can kind of just say goodbye to. It's a given really that it's going to be gone, but it's your ID and your cards and everything. It's such a hassle trying to get them back again. So I wanted to make sure that whoever drunken idiot dropped them in that club that it got back to their hands safely.Paul: Well, that's nice. So you're a thief with heart then.Amy: I'm not a thief. I'm an opportunist.Paul: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Amy: It's on the floor.Paul: I'm pulling your leg, Amy. No, I would have done the same.

Paul: So Amy, I was talking to somebody the other day and they told me that you had quite a number of like interesting little odd jobs. So I'm interested, so could you tell me a bit about that.Amy: I don't know how odd they were. I don't know. When I was in university, part time jobs, I used to work in restaurants and—the usual stuff—restaurants, and I think my favorite was working in a nightclub. It was a really, really big nightclub and I used to work on the floor, just kind of cleaning up, looking after all the drunk patrons.And my first night there was—actually, one of my favorite DJs was on, so that was great. I got to listen to really good music whilst finding money on the floor, and cleaning up after folks. It was really good.Paul: You found some money on the floor.Amy: Yeah. You know, it was a busy club. Really, really full, a good couple of thousand people in there. And I guess people were doing whatever they were doing and they would drop big wads of cash. And because I was the person to clean up all the glass bottles, then I would find the wads of cash on the floor. So it was good. I'd get my wages, I'd get tips, and then I would get my own personal tips from finding money on the floor.Paul: So you must have found like a whole range of different things, like, what else did you find?Amy: Yeah. A little wraps of things, and then packets of things, yeah. I mean, I had to work hard for the money. It wasn't easy because the place was full, absolutely rammed of people. Everybody is incredibly drunk or whatever and they all just want to dance and have a good time. And I have to make sure there's no broken glass for safety reasons, obviously. So I'm pushing my way through the crowd and keeping eyes on the floor constantly with a torch. And alongside the broken glass that I would sweep up would be, yeah, wads of cash, sometimes little purses, little bags, things like that.When I find, like, identification for things—when it was a purse, I would do the right thing with it, hand it in but it was just a wad up, like a rolled-up set of notes, I would just put them in my pocket for me, basically.Paul: Yeah, it's difficult to know what to do with cash because you're handing it to someone who—well, it's cash, isn't it?Amy: I know.Paul: Yeah, yeah.Amy: I remember finding some driving license and student ID, and I took—it was actually the same university that I went to at the time, and I just took it to uni when I was going during the week. And I handed it in to make sure that it got back to the owner because you know that's the worst thing about when you lose your purse or your wallet. The cash, you can kind of just say goodbye to. It's a given really that it's going to be gone, but it's your ID and your cards and everything. It's such a hassle trying to get them back again. So I wanted to make sure that whoever drunken idiot dropped them in that club that it got back to their hands safely.Paul: Well, that's nice. So you're a thief with heart then.Amy: I'm not a thief. I'm an opportunist.Paul: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Amy: It's on the floor.Paul: I'm pulling your leg, Amy. No, I would have done the same.

Paul: So Amy, I was talking to somebody the other day and they told me that you had quite a number of like interesting little odd jobs. So I'm interested, so could you tell me a bit about that.Amy: I don't know how odd they were. I don't know. When I was in university, part time jobs, I used to work in restaurants and—the usual stuff—restaurants, and I think my favorite was working in a nightclub. It was a really, really big nightclub and I used to work on the floor, just kind of cleaning up, looking after all the drunk patrons.And my first night there was—actually, one of my favorite DJs was on, so that was great. I got to listen to really good music whilst finding money on the floor, and cleaning up after folks. It was really good.Paul: You found some money on the floor.Amy: Yeah. You know, it was a busy club. Really, really full, a good couple of thousand people in there. And I guess people were doing whatever they were doing and they would drop big wads of cash. And because I was the person to clean up all the glass bottles, then I would find the wads of cash on the floor. So it was good. I'd get my wages, I'd get tips, and then I would get my own personal tips from finding money on the floor.Paul: So you must have found like a whole range of different things, like, what else did you find?Amy: Yeah. A little wraps of things, and then packets of things, yeah. I mean, I had to work hard for the money. It wasn't easy because the place was full, absolutely rammed of people. Everybody is incredibly drunk or whatever and they all just want to dance and have a good time. And I have to make sure there's no broken glass for safety reasons, obviously. So I'm pushing my way through the crowd and keeping eyes on the floor constantly with a torch. And alongside the broken glass that I would sweep up would be, yeah, wads of cash, sometimes little purses, little bags, things like that.When I find, like, identification for things—when it was a purse, I would do the right thing with it, hand it in but it was just a wad up, like a rolled-up set of notes, I would just put them in my pocket for me, basically.Paul: Yeah, it's difficult to know what to do with cash because you're handing it to someone who—well, it's cash, isn't it?Amy: I know.Paul: Yeah, yeah.Amy: I remember finding some driving license and student ID, and I took—it was actually the same university that I went to at the time, and I just took it to uni when I was going during the week. And I handed it in to make sure that it got back to the owner because you know that's the worst thing about when you lose your purse or your wallet. The cash, you can kind of just say goodbye to. It's a given really that it's going to be gone, but it's your ID and your cards and everything. It's such a hassle trying to get them back again. So I wanted to make sure that whoever drunken idiot dropped them in that club that it got back to their hands safely.Paul: Well, that's nice. So you're a thief with heart then.Amy: I'm not a thief. I'm an opportunist.Paul: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Amy: It's on the floor.Paul: I'm pulling your leg, Amy. No, I would have done the same.

Aimee: So Paul, what's the most memorable job experience that you have?Paul: Hmm, well, I think the most memorable one is the volunteering time that I spent in Australia. And I was up in the northeastern corner where there's a relatively small rainforest. And I was helping with a research station that's located in the rainforest. So we do a range of different things, going from trying to control coconuts—coconut trees.Aimee: Control?Paul: Yeah, because, like, believe it or not, you imagine this kind of tropical paradise to have coconut trees but they're actually very invasive and they're not native to that area. And basically, if you let a population of coconut trees to go out of control, nothing else can grow.Aimee: Oh.They drop their fronds, and they drop, obviously the coconuts, and nothing else can grow. So you basically lose a lot of the native species there. So we're trying to keep them under control. There was also caring for bats that had been orphaned. Sometimes they're born with physical disabilities that mean they can't survive in the wild.Aimee: Like a sanctuary then?Paul: Yes. Just like a sanctuary, yeah. So they take care of—Aimee: What size of bats, like any other—Paul: Fruit bats.Aimee: What size are they?Paul: They're pretty, like, once they spread—they're like little monkeys with big wings.Aimee: Yeah. So what's their wingspan then? About?Paul: Let's say, maybe, I guess up to probably 4 feet. Does that sound too much?Aimee: So about a meter?Paul: Yeah. Some of the big dudes, they got huge wingspan.Aimee: Oh, the only bats I've seen in real life are really tiny. They're just like mice.Paul: Oh, the micro-bats.Aimee: They're like little birds, you know. You see them flying around and you think, “Oh that's birds.” No, they're bats. So these guys sound pretty big.Paul: Hmm, but they're completely like omnivorous. They only eat fruit, so like, they really—Aimee: Do they eat the coconuts?Paul: Well, the coconuts are kind of tough for them to get into. You need to be able to make a hole, I suppose, to get that.Aimee: Of course, yeah.Paul: But they eat all, mostly like fleshy fruits; apples or whatever they can get really—berries. They're really important for spreading—because obviously, they eat the flesh of the fruit but they don't eat the seeds. So they just kind of pass through them and they're really useful for dispersing seeds. So rainforest regeneration, they're very important animals.Aimee: So they're like the big bumblebees of the rainforest, then.Paul: Yeah. I guess you could look at it like that, yeah. So yeah, that was an interesting volunteering kind of odd job that I had, I suppose.Aimee: Yeah. Essentially yet really cool.Paul: I really like to go back there someday.

Aimee: So Paul, what's the most memorable job experience that you have?Paul: Hmm, well, I think the most memorable one is the volunteering time that I spent in Australia. And I was up in the northeastern corner where there's a relatively small rainforest. And I was helping with a research station that's located in the rainforest. So we do a range of different things, going from trying to control coconuts—coconut trees.Aimee: Control?Paul: Yeah, because, like, believe it or not, you imagine this kind of tropical paradise to have coconut trees but they're actually very invasive and they're not native to that area. And basically, if you let a population of coconut trees to go out of control, nothing else can grow.Aimee: Oh.They drop their fronds, and they drop, obviously the coconuts, and nothing else can grow. So you basically lose a lot of the native species there. So we're trying to keep them under control. There was also caring for bats that had been orphaned. Sometimes they're born with physical disabilities that mean they can't survive in the wild.Aimee: Like a sanctuary then?Paul: Yes. Just like a sanctuary, yeah. So they take care of—Aimee: What size of bats, like any other—Paul: Fruit bats.Aimee: What size are they?Paul: They're pretty, like, once they spread—they're like little monkeys with big wings.Aimee: Yeah. So what's their wingspan then? About?Paul: Let's say, maybe, I guess up to probably 4 feet. Does that sound too much?Aimee: So about a meter?Paul: Yeah. Some of the big dudes, they got huge wingspan.Aimee: Oh, the only bats I've seen in real life are really tiny. They're just like mice.Paul: Oh, the micro-bats.Aimee: They're like little birds, you know. You see them flying around and you think, “Oh that's birds.” No, they're bats. So these guys sound pretty big.Paul: Hmm, but they're completely like omnivorous. They only eat fruit, so like, they really—Aimee: Do they eat the coconuts?Paul: Well, the coconuts are kind of tough for them to get into. You need to be able to make a hole, I suppose, to get that.Aimee: Of course, yeah.Paul: But they eat all, mostly like fleshy fruits; apples or whatever they can get really—berries. They're really important for spreading—because obviously, they eat the flesh of the fruit but they don't eat the seeds. So they just kind of pass through them and they're really useful for dispersing seeds. So rainforest regeneration, they're very important animals.Aimee: So they're like the big bumblebees of the rainforest, then.Paul: Yeah. I guess you could look at it like that, yeah. So yeah, that was an interesting volunteering kind of odd job that I had, I suppose.Aimee: Yeah. Essentially yet really cool.Paul: I really like to go back there someday.

Aimee: So Paul, what's the most memorable job experience that you have?Paul: Hmm, well, I think the most memorable one is the volunteering time that I spent in Australia. And I was up in the northeastern corner where there's a relatively small rainforest. And I was helping with a research station that's located in the rainforest. So we do a range of different things, going from trying to control coconuts—coconut trees.Aimee: Control?Paul: Yeah, because, like, believe it or not, you imagine this kind of tropical paradise to have coconut trees but they're actually very invasive and they're not native to that area. And basically, if you let a population of coconut trees to go out of control, nothing else can grow.Aimee: Oh.They drop their fronds, and they drop, obviously the coconuts, and nothing else can grow. So you basically lose a lot of the native species there. So we're trying to keep them under control. There was also caring for bats that had been orphaned. Sometimes they're born with physical disabilities that mean they can't survive in the wild.Aimee: Like a sanctuary then?Paul: Yes. Just like a sanctuary, yeah. So they take care of—Aimee: What size of bats, like any other—Paul: Fruit bats.Aimee: What size are they?Paul: They're pretty, like, once they spread—they're like little monkeys with big wings.Aimee: Yeah. So what's their wingspan then? About?Paul: Let's say, maybe, I guess up to probably 4 feet. Does that sound too much?Aimee: So about a meter?Paul: Yeah. Some of the big dudes, they got huge wingspan.Aimee: Oh, the only bats I've seen in real life are really tiny. They're just like mice.Paul: Oh, the micro-bats.Aimee: They're like little birds, you know. You see them flying around and you think, “Oh that's birds.” No, they're bats. So these guys sound pretty big.Paul: Hmm, but they're completely like omnivorous. They only eat fruit, so like, they really—Aimee: Do they eat the coconuts?Paul: Well, the coconuts are kind of tough for them to get into. You need to be able to make a hole, I suppose, to get that.Aimee: Of course, yeah.Paul: But they eat all, mostly like fleshy fruits; apples or whatever they can get really—berries. They're really important for spreading—because obviously, they eat the flesh of the fruit but they don't eat the seeds. So they just kind of pass through them and they're really useful for dispersing seeds. So rainforest regeneration, they're very important animals.Aimee: So they're like the big bumblebees of the rainforest, then.Paul: Yeah. I guess you could look at it like that, yeah. So yeah, that was an interesting volunteering kind of odd job that I had, I suppose.Aimee: Yeah. Essentially yet really cool.Paul: I really like to go back there someday.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hi, Amy.Amy: Hi.Paul: How are you?Amy: I'm all right. Thanks. How are you?Paul: Yeah, pretty good. I was thinking the other day about routine. I mean, do you follow like a strict routine?Amy: Not really. I'm pretty laid-back, I think.Paul: I see.Amy: Workdays, you have to follow a routine, I guess because you have to get ready, you have to get out the door. But on days off, I just do what I feel like pretty much. Pretty relaxed.Paul: Well, that I think is important isn't it, to relax on your days off. But like on a workday, so what do you do first in the morning?Amy: I think probably what everybody does first. I have to go to the bathroom.Paul: Okay. I mean, what do you do after that? Do you make yourself a hot drink?Amy: I wash my face and brush teeth, pretty much, and then cajole my daughter into getting on with her morning routine as well, making sure she's ready.Paul: I see. So you've got to get two people ready.Amy: Yes, I do. How about you?Paul: I just need to worry about myself really. I think that's enough, you know.Amy: Is that a big task?Paul: Yeah. Well, I always have a cup of tea in the morning. First thing, I always put the kettle on and make a hot drink. And I usually try to eat like a good breakfast, not just a piece of toast or something but maybe some eggs, scrambled eggs and maybe some bacon and some toast. Yeah, I try to leave the house with a full stomach.Amy: Yeah, that's good. I try to do that as well. Sometimes, we're pretty　rushed and breakfast is sometimes eaten in the car. But we do get full stomachs eventually.Paul: Right, right.Amy: Do you ever have fruit with your breakfast?Paul: I don't. I know some people eat like a grapefruit. Actually, occasionally, I have a banana.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because I just find it's really easy, and convenient, and quick.Amy: I agree.Paul: But stuff like, you know, grapefruits and oranges, you have to peel them. Yeah, I just don't have the time really in the morning.Amy: Too much like hard work?Paul: Yeah. But if I stay in like if I'm on a holiday in a hotel and they have like a nice breakfast, I always try to eat fruit. So I always try to eat a bit of everything actually.Amy: When it's there in front of you, ready.Paul: When it's made for you, yeah.Amy: I do that, too, definitely.Paul: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hi, Amy.Amy: Hi.Paul: How are you?Amy: I'm all right. Thanks. How are you?Paul: Yeah, pretty good. I was thinking the other day about routine. I mean, do you follow like a strict routine?Amy: Not really. I'm pretty laid-back, I think.Paul: I see.Amy: Workdays, you have to follow a routine, I guess because you have to get ready, you have to get out the door. But on days off, I just do what I feel like pretty much. Pretty relaxed.Paul: Well, that I think is important isn't it, to relax on your days off. But like on a workday, so what do you do first in the morning?Amy: I think probably what everybody does first. I have to go to the bathroom.Paul: Okay. I mean, what do you do after that? Do you make yourself a hot drink?Amy: I wash my face and brush teeth, pretty much, and then cajole my daughter into getting on with her morning routine as well, making sure she's ready.Paul: I see. So you've got to get two people ready.Amy: Yes, I do. How about you?Paul: I just need to worry about myself really. I think that's enough, you know.Amy: Is that a big task?Paul: Yeah. Well, I always have a cup of tea in the morning. First thing, I always put the kettle on and make a hot drink. And I usually try to eat like a good breakfast, not just a piece of toast or something but maybe some eggs, scrambled eggs and maybe some bacon and some toast. Yeah, I try to leave the house with a full stomach.Amy: Yeah, that's good. I try to do that as well. Sometimes, we're pretty　rushed and breakfast is sometimes eaten in the car. But we do get full stomachs eventually.Paul: Right, right.Amy: Do you ever have fruit with your breakfast?Paul: I don't. I know some people eat like a grapefruit. Actually, occasionally, I have a banana.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because I just find it's really easy, and convenient, and quick.Amy: I agree.Paul: But stuff like, you know, grapefruits and oranges, you have to peel them. Yeah, I just don't have the time really in the morning.Amy: Too much like hard work?Paul: Yeah. But if I stay in like if I'm on a holiday in a hotel and they have like a nice breakfast, I always try to eat fruit. So I always try to eat a bit of everything actually.Amy: When it's there in front of you, ready.Paul: When it's made for you, yeah.Amy: I do that, too, definitely.Paul: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hi, Amy.Amy: Hi.Paul: How are you?Amy: I'm all right. Thanks. How are you?Paul: Yeah, pretty good. I was thinking the other day about routine. I mean, do you follow like a strict routine?Amy: Not really. I'm pretty laid-back, I think.Paul: I see.Amy: Workdays, you have to follow a routine, I guess because you have to get ready, you have to get out the door. But on days off, I just do what I feel like pretty much. Pretty relaxed.Paul: Well, that I think is important isn't it, to relax on your days off. But like on a workday, so what do you do first in the morning?Amy: I think probably what everybody does first. I have to go to the bathroom.Paul: Okay. I mean, what do you do after that? Do you make yourself a hot drink?Amy: I wash my face and brush teeth, pretty much, and then cajole my daughter into getting on with her morning routine as well, making sure she's ready.Paul: I see. So you've got to get two people ready.Amy: Yes, I do. How about you?Paul: I just need to worry about myself really. I think that's enough, you know.Amy: Is that a big task?Paul: Yeah. Well, I always have a cup of tea in the morning. First thing, I always put the kettle on and make a hot drink. And I usually try to eat like a good breakfast, not just a piece of toast or something but maybe some eggs, scrambled eggs and maybe some bacon and some toast. Yeah, I try to leave the house with a full stomach.Amy: Yeah, that's good. I try to do that as well. Sometimes, we're pretty　rushed and breakfast is sometimes eaten in the car. But we do get full stomachs eventually.Paul: Right, right.Amy: Do you ever have fruit with your breakfast?Paul: I don't. I know some people eat like a grapefruit. Actually, occasionally, I have a banana.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because I just find it's really easy, and convenient, and quick.Amy: I agree.Paul: But stuff like, you know, grapefruits and oranges, you have to peel them. Yeah, I just don't have the time really in the morning.Amy: Too much like hard work?Paul: Yeah. But if I stay in like if I'm on a holiday in a hotel and they have like a nice breakfast, I always try to eat fruit. So I always try to eat a bit of everything actually.Amy: When it's there in front of you, ready.Paul: When it's made for you, yeah.Amy: I do that, too, definitely.Paul: Yeah.

Paul and Allison try to decide to attempt to maybe review breakfast. This episode is not explicit. Performed by Coral Baxter-Ellis, Paul Ellis, and Allison Baxter. http://dcritpodcast.com TRANSCRIPT CORAL Mom, Dad, you ready? What's your review going to be on? PAUL We're reviewing breakfast! CORAL Oh you mean like IHOP or Jimmy Dean sausage? PAUL No, like having breakfast- ALLISON Yuck. PAUL It's the most important meal of the day, Allison. ALLISON Breakfast is gross. Who can eat that early? PAUL Well you've essentially starved your body for eight hours, so you're being cruel to your body. ALLISON Since when do you eat breakfast anyway, Paul? You don't get up until 11. Like a damn teenager. CORAL Hey, this damn teenager gets up at seven. PAUL You might be a bit more pleasant in the morning if you actually ate something. ALLISON Really, Paul? PAUL and ALLISON ad-lib, anything can be said as they are not listening to each other CORAL You can't blame a soul for trying. So there's your review of the importance of breakfast, if you can call it that. That was my parents Allison Baxter and Paul Ellis. I'm Coral Baxter-Ellis and you can catch our podcast Deconstructive Criticism starting this fall. Episode music "Coffee" by Cambo

When you’re entering a new company or a new market, there are lessons to be learned from the past and opportunities to grab hold of to propel yourself and your company forward. Paul Lanham entered a new company and industry all at once when he became the Chief Information and E-Commerce Officer at Charlotte's Web, a CBD company.   On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Paul details how he used his experience at companies such as Crocs, HCL and Brookstone to help guide him as he helped grow the Ecommerce business at Charlotte’s Web to the point where it now represents 65% of the business. Paul explains the methods he has used to generate qualified traffic, conversions and a high retention rate, and he discusses the technology he thinks is going to make a huge impact on Ecommerce in the future. Main Takeaways: Respect The Work That Came Before You: As a leader coming into a new company, there can be a tendency to try to change too much too fast. Instead, acknowledge and respect the work that was happening prior to your arrival, and then try to evolve that work into something more.  Let the Tools Handle the Work: Humans are excellent at many things, but we all have inherent biases and miss certain correlations or connections. Rather than trying to analyze all the data you have on your own, employ technology like A.I. that will ignore most (unprogrammed) bias and can do the deep work a human brain is incapable of. Tech is Catching Up To Personalization: For so long, there has been a promise of technology that could interact in a human way with customers in real-time. That technology is finally starting to become a reality and those that can implement it properly can take personalization of their Ecommerce experiences to the next level. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org and your host. Today we have Paul Lanham on the show, the Chief Information and Ecommerce Officer at Charlotte's Web. Paul, welcome. Paul: Hi, nice to be here. Stephanie: I'm glad to have you. Yeah, I'm really excited. I've used Charlotte's Web products before. So, when I saw that you were in our queue for interviews, I was like, "Oh, this is going to be a good interview." Paul: That's good to hear you have some perspective then. Stephanie: To start, I was looking through your background and was really impressed by some of the companies that you've worked at. I'd love for you to first before talking about Charlotte's Web, kind of go through a little bit about your history and then what brought you to Charlotte's Web. Paul: Sure. As you just noted, I have a pretty diverse background mostly in the retial and CBG and technology industries. What's really colored my career is that I've been given a lot of opportunities, some of which I hadn't had a lot of experience in including Ecommerce when I started in its infancy in the mid '90s when you had to build everything. You couldn't really go to the corner shop and buy an Ecommerce server. Paul: But I basically have touched on virtually every aspect of Ecommerce over the past 20 somewhat years. I've been a C level executive for about 25 years and worked for a diverse group of companies, a variety of sizes. Some startups. Paul: I started my own tech company and now it's Charlotte's Web, which I have to say is very much different in terms of its make up versus the companies I've worked for in the past. Stephanie: Yes. And just for people to know the difference, it would be great if you could name drop a bit. I know people hate name dropping, but I'd love to hear what were some of the companies, the largest ones you've worked at? I think you can compare it to Charlotte's Web. Paul: Sure. I worked for what was a startup, Crocs. I think people will recognize the infamous shoe company that is just located down the street from where I work. Paul: I've worked for Jones Apparel Group, which is a mega apparel conglomerate that own companies like Barneys New York, Jones New York, Apollo Jeans, et cetera, in the apparel industry. Paul: I started a tech company that eventually became a subsidiary of HCL Technologies, which is a global tech firm based in India. Paul: And Brookstone, which is the gadget shop, competing with Sharper Image. Again, near its infancy as well. So, a diverse group of experiences. Stephanie: Yeah, that's amazing. With some of these companies you've worked at previously, are there a lot of lessons that you were able to bring to Charlotte's Web or is it just such a different beast that you kind of had to just start over and had a completely new hat on? Paul: Well, basically if you've been a C level executive for a number of years you have some successes and you have some failures and hopefully you learn from the failures, and I've had them too. Paul: Implemented virtually every kind of system you can imagine. Been on the business side from an Ecommerce perspective and learned a lot of different things that I've been able to bring to Charlotte's Web. Paul: Back to the diversity of my career, one thing I can note, I probably have been in just about every function that you can imagine from finance, to marketing, to sales, to Ecommerce, et cetera, et cetera. Paul: So, I think that brings somewhat of a unique perspective to a company like Charlotte's Web, where I frankly I have a lot of empathy for my peers in other departments because I've done a lot of their jobs. Stephanie: Yeah, that is so important. I've worked at previous companies where someone doesn't understand I worked in finance back in the day and people do not understand the complexity or why there are certain procedures set up and you can definitely see tension between certain groups if they've never worked in that team before. So, that's key I think. Paul: Absolutely, and financial people can be fun. Most people don't know that. Stephanie: They can be. Just like me, I'm fun. You're fun Paul. I'd love to hear or I'd love for you to explain what is Charlotte's Web and maybe even starting with the story behind it, behind the name. Paul: Sure. Charlotte's Web is CBD company that was founded by the seven Stanley Brothers and that's a wonderful story in it of itself in that they grew up in the Cannabis industry. Paul: But the company's namesake, Charlotte Figi, who many people may remember from the Sanjay Gupta CNN Specials from years back and most recently illustrating how there was this trajectory of various peoples and things to help a little child basically survive. Paul: So, our namesake Charlotte really is like our guiding star or north star in the context of our mission, which is to help people through natural products that Charlotte's Web produces. Paul: So, it's a young industry, it's a young company where we are a market leader. Obviously we are commercial, but we're always grounded by our original mission and we still do help quite a few people to where our product is very essential like the Charlottes olive oil. Stephanie: Yeah. I was looking at the I am Charlotte video on your website and it definitely gave me goosebumps. When did you guys create that campaign? Paul: Well, it's basically been the past year. The point is with her passing it really shook us all to our core because frankly it was probably one of the core reasons that most of us joined the company. I was fortunate to be able to meet Charlotte and her mother Paige a couple of times. Paul: But many people in my company, and obviously the Stanley Brothers basically grew up in this company attached to Charlotte's story. The I am Charlotte campaign is currently just obviously a testimony and our take on how beloved she is and still is. Stephanie: Yeah, I love that. The CBD industry as you mentioned, it is kind of a new-ish industry. When you're in California it seems like it's been around forever, but when you go to other states or back to my hometown, people still kind of have they either don't know what it is or yeah, are just very unclear about what it is. You have different preconceived notions, you can say. Stephanie: So, how do you all think about kind of educating the public or new buyers who come to your site for the first time? Paul: Certainly. Two points, actually about 15% of households have had some experience with CBD in the United States. And still because it's such an emerging industry, word of mouth is still very important. Typically, people first get exposed to CBD by a relative or a friend or somebody mentioning it that it helped them. Paul: When they go to search for it, we basically are actually a leader at Charlotte's Web because we rank very high on the first page, in the first third with what is CBD. To that point, we spend a good deal of time on our site through blog entries and various educational videos that we put out to educate our customer on the difference, for example, between hemp and cannabis or what is the efficacy of CBD and various in-depth, I guess, videos to illustrate the depth of what they could know about CBD. Paul: So, it very much is still an educational process as you've mentioned to evangelize the use of CBD. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. How did you all become a market leader? I know you were not first, but you definitely were some of the early leaders or even starting up in this industry. But how did you go about making sure people had your name as the household name when it came to CBD? Paul: Sure. They were among the first and the brand story between the Stanley Brothers and Charlotte really resonated. It was made for this industry and the mission that the Stanley Brothers inoculated into the company and we still have in terms of evangelizing the product and natural products to the world to help people, I think resonate with people. Paul: When you talk about, for example, our end-to-end integration from seed to shelf, our quality, et cetera, all those things kind of are confluence in terms of being perceived as a quality brand and a premium brand to a consumer. Paul: There are a lot of smart business decisions along the way, frankly, in terms of becoming that market leader. Stephanie: What kind of smart business decisions? Now you've piqued my interest. Paul: Okay. For example, going really strong in Ecommerce initially in that the nature of the industry is that there's been a slower adoption in the major retailers because hemp frankly, from a federal perspective, wasn't quite legal until a couple of years ago based on the format. Paul: There are some reticence in terms of conservative retailers to carry the product. So, they were very smart in not necessarily going the mom-and-pop route even though we have a big natural store population on the retail side. Paul: But going very strong with Ecommerce and hiring the right people right off the bat a couple few years ago to basically push the commercial side of this. Ecommerce right now represents about 65% of our business as was in the first quarter. That's somewhat of a higher percentage than many of our competitors. Stephanie: What do you think is attributed to that higher percentage? Paul: Being first out of the gate. Being very professional about it. But the primary drivers, they're a couple, back to the brand story that really resonated, was beautifully presented on the site and for media. Paul: Secondarily, the quality that we bring to the table that we try to communicate to other consumers. From that seed to shelf continuum, we test the product 20 times, we track each individual bottle or tincture or the like back to a specific lot and seeds. We could document virtually anything anyone needs to know about that particular product. Paul: So, particularly in this industry where you have an influx of competitors, some of which frankly are not quite as sophisticated in the context of testing and the branding. You can really stand out by basically taking care of those issues. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. That is how I found you guys in the early days was because quality to me is the biggest factor when it comes to CBD. Paul: Absolutely. Stephanie: And it's also something that a lot of people worried about early on because you do hear horror stories and it felt good going to a company knowing yeah, they've already got everything figured out. They've got the dosing down to its seed. They've got it's non-GMO and yeah, I think that's so important with an industry like this. Paul: Absolutely. Stephanie: The one thing I was thinking about was consumer journeys. Everyone is coming to your website maybe at a different place like we were mentioning before. Some people are brand new or they've maybe never even heard of it, where education is key. Stephanie: Some people have heard about it. You've got the people who maybe are hiding their browsers when they're looking for it or the people like me it's like, "Yeah, this is an obvious thing that can help you." Paul: Sure, sure. Stephanie: How do you personalize either your Ecommerce experience or your marketing efforts to kind of go after all those people and meet them where they are? Paul: Well that's a good question because when I mentioned sophisticated we invested in tools that enable us to personalize that journey. So, for example, back to my comment on what is CBD. Paul: If somebody enters that as a search term and they have to click on our link, we will take them initially to the education materials and will kind of guide them through the process from the Ecommerce perspective of walking them through that journey and hopefully they purchase. Paul: We do that in the context of segmenting our email channel. We have a variety of channels and we handle each one differently. Our affiliate channel, for example, is very strong in terms of the partners we deal with like a Healthline.com, which yet again is another educational component in that we're very strong with them. Paul: So, depending on the channel, depending on the entry point of our consumer, we will treat them differently in the context of where we land them on the website, what we offer to them in the context of their journey through the website, and what promotional activity we engage with them. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah that make sense. When it comes to affiliate programs, how did you all think about setting that up and is that still a big part of your strategy or did you kind of pull back on that once you started becoming more of a household name? Paul: It's still and will be a very big part of our strategy in that penetration of CBD from a search to perspective is still relatively low compared to what I've experienced in the past so that we're still in an emerging phase where we need to use and leverage every channel we can. Paul: So, as strong as our Ecommerce business is, which happens to be frankly Ecommerce alone at Charlotte's Web is a market leader in revenue compared to every other CBD company, just alone. It kind of tells you the scale of our business. Paul: But what I'm getting at, the Healthline.com affiliate is very important to us in that it is the number one rated medical advice site, I believe, if I look at the statistics recently. Paul: Every entry point is different for every consumer and we need to leverage all those different entry points. We can't, for example, rely solely on organic search as an example, not that we would. But we basically go through every venue. Stephanie: Got it. What does it look like setting up a partnership like that? Because, I think that is really important kind of finding someone who has a good reputation that a lot of people trust. But what did that look like setting that partnership up and making it so both sides feel like it's a win-win? Paul: Well to your point, it's important to vet the partner because obviously you don't want to be presented on a site that doesn't quite meet your value set or your brand image. So, we're fairly choosy in terms of the affiliate partners that we work with. Paul: Obviously, in some cases it's a longer negotiation in that obviously we want to do it on advantageous terms in terms of the share basically. So, we don't cast a wide swath in the context of the affiliate partners we deal with. We're very selective. Stephanie: Got it. So, the one thing that I was wondering earlier when you were mentioning failures and you of course have a huge backlog of experience at other companies, what did your first 90 days look like coming in to Charlotte's Web and what big things did you change from the start based on maybe past failures or successes that you've had at prior companies? Paul: Well, like entries in the most companies it's a rush. My story, this is pre-COVID times obviously, I talked on the phone with a board member and my boss, the CEO, on a Friday. I flew over the weekend, got there on Monday. I took the job sight unseen after a phone call. Stephanie: Wow. Paul: I was so enamored of it. I've never done that before. And Danny has never hired anybody like that before, it just went so well. I showed up on Monday and I didn't leave for 90 days, much to the consonation of my significant other in Boston. So, we worked it out. Paul: But it was just a rush of understanding the industry in-depth, doing triage in the context it was still a start mentality, triage in the context of building a business intelligence stack, revamping the Ecommerce organization, planning the next iterations and improvements, setting up for the holiday season for example. Paul: When I joined, literally the week after I joined we kicked off a new platform upgrade that we only had a couple of months to do prior to holidays. So, it was a lot of long days. Stephanie: Was that something that you feel like you could step into because I'm sure you've done many re-platforming experiences before? Paul: Yeah. There is some muscle memory and back to my point, you always want to learn from your failures and not do them again or at least understand the context and admit them. Basically one of those issues is that one has to listen very carefully. Paul: I parachuted into a company that was going 1,000 miles an hour and one of the lessons I've learned in the past is honor the past because there was a great deal of work and a lot of great work done that I took the attitude of evolving and adding to as opposed to turning the part which many C level executives take that as their mandate. Paul: I've never really done that. It's one of the failures I've learned from in my past that basically sometimes evolution is better than tearing things apart. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I love that and I think the quote too. Paul: Yes. Stephanie: So, I'm sure another thing that you kind of the change of thinking on would be how you track the success of a business or the Ecommerce site. What kind of metrics, did you maybe look at prior companies where you were like this is our set of metrics that always made sense versus what do you look at now at Charlotte's Web? Paul: Well, there are quite a few. You know the Ecommerce business, there are probably 20 things that you look on a daily basis. That's my routine in the morning, I get up and I look at basically all the metrics. Paul: But what's important here, more so than perhaps, it's always in the top three conversion for example, on unbalanced traffic. It's significant here because you're engagement with a new customer and maybe fleeting because of the nature of the industry, the curiosity about CBD, people not knowing about it. Paul: I actually had to look at that statistic or those statistics several times because they didn't believe them, they were so high. That's a testament to the people and the staff that were here in that whether it's educating the consumer, or the customer experience on the site, or customer care on the backend, we have a high percentage of sales that convert. Paul: So, that probably is a much more important stat that I've paid attention to in the past. It's always been in the top three or four. Paul: Retention of consumers. Again, in this sort of industry because of the fleeting interaction with your customers, we have a very strong subscription program that is very important to us, which are typically customers who deem the product to be essential to their wellbeing. Paul: So, we've put a good deal of emphasis on that as well as retaining customers, and again, without divulging the statistics, it's much higher than I've experienced in my past 20 plus years of experience in Ecommerce. Stephanie: What do you think is making it so high? How are you all retaining customers so well or encouraging people to subscribe? Paul: Well, it's high because I guess in a way our traffic is more qualified, then again I've experience in the past. When they come through the site and they've been educated, there's a slightly high degree of propensity to buy. So, that's a factor. Paul: Plus some of our tools really facilitate the conversion in that. Not that we're pushy but we don't let go in the context of okay, this isn't right for you, maybe this or how about this promotion or have you rethought this through the customer journey in the site? Stephanie: Yeah. Paul: Basically, there's a pre-decisive to buy basically once they get to our site. Stephanie: Is there any initiatives that you've implemented when it comes to, like you said, it's nice you don't let go and you make sure to make to keep reminding them or showing them new products or new ideas. Stephanie: Is there anything that you've implemented recently around those kind of initiatives that have increased conversions or increased subscription rates or anything, or anything that you've done where you're like that was a big flop, don't try that? Paul: Well yeah. Again, getting much more sophisticated, I don't think anybody else has implemented the suite of what I call campaign tools and analytical tools. Typically, people use the standard GA or Google tools and we've gone past that and utilizing tools that I've used in much bigger companies without naming the company. Paul: So, we can have a high degree of personalization in terms of how we treat our customers as they kind of navigate through our site. A much higher capability in terms of test and react and basically inoculating those scenarios and situations into our campaigns eventually down to the individual level. Paul: So, we're still learning some of those. We've implemented those over the past three or four months. The company is still, my staff is still learning some of the aspects of those tools. Paul: On top of that from an analytic standpoint, which is a little unusual in the industry, we dived in with both feet from an artificial intelligence perspective because I joke with my staff and they read too rapidly that my experience doesn't always mean anything. I think I know everything about my customer and I'm confounded constantly in terms of why I was wrong on that. Paul: It comes down to the data and what artificial intelligence does for example, is that it makes those deep correlations that none of us would have thought of, I would have never thought of with my 20 plus years of experience of how our customers actually interact with our site or what are they thinking in the context of their purchase strength. Paul: So, when you put all those things together from a capability perspective, I love it in terms of being data driven, in terms of understanding our consumer at a deeper and deeper level and being able to provide the best experience and the best service that we can on an ongoing basis. Stephanie: Got it. That makes sense. When you're implementing AI, first can I ask what platform are you using for that and what kind of surprises have you found when you implemented AI? What were the consumers doing that you would never have guessed before? Paul: Well it's a third party app. It's a bunch of data scientists who basically provide the service for us. They're conduit for the massive amount of data that we have. To your question of surprises or those correlations or what people have affinities for in terms of say, an add-on purchase that we would never think of, what prompts them to basically make that leap to make the purchase in the context of their journey through the site. Some of which are counterintuitive to some of our experience particularly for certain segment of our consumer base. Paul: It's just some of those interesting nuggets of information. The hard part of it is, there's so many correlations that we have to rank them and we basically test each correlation over a period of time to vet out the action. Paul: Our challenge at this point is basically getting into a much more test and react cycle on these correlations. Stephanie: That's really interesting. Paul: Yes. Stephanie: So, if you were to implement AI all over again or you had someone who does not have that on their site right now, what would you do maybe differently or if you were like we could go back and maybe I would change the way we did this or think about it differently when implementing it, what are some advice around that? Paul: Well what slowed us down was the notion of producing what I call hypothesis based on our prior knowledge. That tends to put you into silos of information and doesn't quite give you the breadth of correlations that AI can do for you. Paul: So again, it was all of my advice that hey, I think I really know this aspect of consumer behavior. I'm really interested in terms of their conversion activity when they do X, when they do Y. Paul: I wouldn't be so structured in those hypothesis going into it and probably a little more open minded in the context of looking at the correlations in a much different broader way. Stephanie: I love that. That's such a good reminder about the kind of biases you bring when looking at data or your consumers and why all that should be scraped from the beginning and just let the technology work for you? Paul: Absolutely, absolutely. Stephanie: In your industry I'm sure you probably get a lot of questions around this. But I'm thinking about all the regulations you have to deal with especially on a state level and when it comes to having Ecommerce be such a large part of your business, what does that look like behind the scenes when it comes to shipping or selling in certain states? Paul: Well, it's mostly an impediment from a retailer, particularly a major retailer perspective because to your point, there's a hodgepodge of regulation in the state. Even though hemp was 0.3%, THC less than 3% as federally allowed, depending on the nuisances of what is in California or Florida, et cetera, retailers may be averse to getting into ingestibles as opposed to topicals. Paul: So, back to our point, one of the reasons why we're industry leaders we've invested heavily in internal, external lobbyists that can guide different parties and factions, whether it be congress at the federal level or legislations at the state level or associations to evangelize the notion of CBD. Paul: One thing that people miss the point on, we welcome more defined regulation from the FDA because we feel that we're heads and shoulders above most of our competitors in the context of how we test, how safe our product is, how we document it and the like. Paul: So, it's an ongoing journey that hopefully more clarity will emerge at both the state and federal level whether it's with the FDA or with various state legislatures to make the retail sales of CBD more palatable. We do ship to all states in the Ecommerce perspective. Stephanie: Okay. Yeah, I like that idea around encouraging the FDA to look into it and implement regulations because you're like my product is so good, we should have the other products regulated and be held to a high standard as well because that is what can maybe hurt the industry as a whole, is having people making subpar products that aren't as high quality as Charlotte's Web. Paul: Yes. It's kind of adding to that, major business publications have basically stated and make the articles that CBD is here to stay. It's a multi-billion dollar business growing at a rapid rate and it's frankly grown so fast and it's a new industry that regulations haven't quite caught up with it. Stephanie: Yeah. I was reading a bit about demand surges especially during the pandemic right now. I think maybe it was your CEO who was mentioning like, oh we had a surge in demand for two weeks and then people kind of pulled back for a little bit. Stephanie: I was wondering how you guys are keeping up your inventory levels, how you manage that and then if you're changing anything going forward after seeing these surges of hopefully consumers that are going to stick around going forward? Paul: We've been really gratified and continuing to serve our customer because the majority of the customers consider our product to be essential for their wellbeing whether it's the type of tincture they use or the ointment or the like. So, it's been relatively stable for us. Stephanie: Okay. Paul: Now from an notary perspective, as a growing company our processes have become more sophisticated and over the past year we've implemented an NSLOP process or production planning process that I'm more familiar with in my CBG background to really dial into marrying strategic plans to budgets, to demand forecast and skew level and doing a relatively sophisticated job of planning product demand. Paul: Now the flip side of that, this industry is volatile in the context of demand in general because retailers, some are still adverse to taking the product, so it's hard to predict demand in that context. Paul: So, we place a little more emphasis on safety stock and agility in the context of the co-manufacturers we deal with and the like. Stephanie: Got it. What are some of the best practices you set up when it comes to setting up that forecasting process because I know you've had a lot, like you mentioned, a lot experience with that. What did you bring to Charlotte's Web that maybe they weren't doing before? Paul: Well, they had started it but I amplified from an Ecommerce perspective, a rigorous skew demand process that is three dimensional and that it adds up from top to bottom and extremely rigorous analytical process of continually revising those forecasts taking into account promotional cadence, taking into account day-to-day iterations of different campaigns. Paul: So, it's a fairly in-depth forecasting process in Ecommerce so that our accuracy is much higher. It's in the 90 percentile by skew in terms of our monthly demand, for example. Paul: One of the things I've learned in my past is that sometimes you have to take a leap of faith on a particular product because you don't know how high you can go. On the other hand, that's what safety stock is for. Stephanie: Got it. What does that look like when it comes to thinking of new products? How do you influence your decision behind that, like you were mentioning, behind the sales channels and the marketing channels that help you influence your ideas or thoughts behind it. What does that look like when it comes to new products? Paul: We do have outside data and with a caveat that it's such a rapidly growing industry that tends to change overtime. But I feel is obviously one of the standard firms we use in the context of a longer term view, in terms of product categories and growth and certain segments and the like and we use that as a baseline. Paul: Obviously we use our trend and my counterpart on the retail side and myself where basically experience marketers and sales people and that we have our own opinions in terms of how we correlate our thoughts on category growth versus what we're seeing in external data, for example, like Brightview. Paul: So, we listen very closely to our consumer in terms of what categories we're pushing. Stephanie: I was just going to say I'm sure you guys get a lot of customer feedback of what people want or what they're looking for. Paul: Yes we do. Stephanie: How do you grab all that and put it in a meaningful way because you probably know best. So, a lot of times consumers might ask for something and then not actually buy it or not really want it. Paul: This is true. They certainly vote with their dollars. But on the other hand, we have a pretty good customer care department that is in my peer bid where I've managed those sorts of departments in the past but this is in an interesting one, the group of individuals that the empathy, because of the nature of the product and the stories they hear and the people they try to help, the empathy they exhibit in terms of comments from customer is just outstanding. Paul: So, it's not only commercial, but to the extent that it's practical based on the information they have, they are advisors to the customers that call in and we have a high volume of calls that come in not necessarily about order standard things, but really what should I do? What about this product? Paul: The other aspect is we have a fairly rich library of customer reviews and the technology we use enables us to slice and dice some of the categories of the customer reviews and try to get to a gist of what's working versus not, whether it's from a product efficacy perspective or perhaps a defect of some sort. Paul: The dropper may not work exactly the way we wanted to and the like. So, we have multiple sources of information of customer contact. Stephanie: I think that's so key to be able to call in and actually talk to someone. That's the perfect way to develop trust is by having someone that you can actually get on a phone with and be like, "Okay, I don't know what to do now. Tell me exactly what I should be doing." Or same with reviews, being able to see someone who sounds like me reviewing the product just seems like a great way to develop trust all around. Paul: Absolutely. From a hiring perspective, I have lunch, a virtual lunch nowadays with every associate in my group at some point. Today I just, prior to this meeting, I had lunch with three of our associates just to kind of get a feeling of that. Paul: When it comes to our customer care associates, I've never met such a group of people that are truly empathetic to where they hear a story and they're crying on the phone with the consumer. They're doing everything. They have a wide latitude of actions they can take to help our customers more so than I'd had in the past in much larger companies. Paul: But they really have the right mindset, I think, as opposed to working in a call center. Stephanie: Yeah. That's so key and so important. Paul: Absolutely. Absolutely. Stephanie: So to shift a little bit into more of a marketing mindset, I wanted to hear a bit about how you guys are investing in different digital channels. What's working and what's not? Paul: Sure. Just the overview is that you may have seen our Trust The Earth campaign, which I loved, we started last fall that kind of instills what our brand messaging is. Basically, a lot of our marketing efforts go to that because again we're an emerging industry, we're maintaining our market lead, we want to convey a certain image, just a random stat based on our efforts here today. Paul: We have over 400 billion impressions from the various things we've done versus, I think our closest competitor from the stats that I've seen were about two billion and it dropped rapidly. So, marketing our digital efforts from a broad perspective are very effective and that shows in the context of where we are in organic search or educating the consumer, long ways to go. Paul: From a digital perspective obviously we're active in every social media component and we're very assertive in terms of educating our consumer through that channel, conveying our brand message. Paul: The industry is in a place right now, there are some restrictions in terms of how aggressive that you can market CBD on social media like on Facebook, for example, or Twitter. But that's not a real problem for me right now because for me we want to activate understanding and education and our brand story at this stage of our growth in the social media channels. Paul: So, a lot of our digital, aside from our paid media, which we're very good at I believe, a lot of our digital is focused on building our brand. Stephanie: How are you thinking about expanding into other markets? I think I saw that you were looking at going into a few other countries. How are you guys exploring that right now? Paul: Well, we're basically putting our markers out there. We have a staff of people who are very experienced internationally. I have a good deal of international experience as well from an Ecommerce perspective in retial. Paul: But one of the constraints still is the regulatory environment in that we won't sell in any country that obviously it's not allowed. There aren't too many countries that actually allow it. So, we're basically putting the building blocks in place if in case that would be our strategy to understand what the international market would mean to us. Paul: But it's still evolving because it's basically not allowed from a regulatory standpoint in quite a few countries. Stephanie: Got it. So now that we're kind of predicting our future a little bit, I'm wondering what kind of Ecommerce trends are you excited about or preparing for right now? Paul: Well, in general, like I have for a number of years it's the technology keeping up with my visions of personalization. In the perfect world I'm interacting real time with the individual consumer in the context of whether we're educating them or guiding their journey and the like and the technology is starting to catch up with that capability even at a company of our scale. Paul: So, that's the trend that has been there for a little while but the promise has been there, but the reality is starting to catch up. The other one I mentioned is using deep technology to a point within certain boundaries to understand our customers behavior and needs and wants and applying, point number one, the personalization with that. Stephanie: Yeah. That makes sense. Is there any new tech that you're experimenting with right now that you guys are loving? Paul: Well, I've experimented with in the past in terms of client side speed of devices. Every Ecommerce and you know all the tropes about how conversion is impacted by site speed and page loading and all those different things. Paul: But what I've been enamored of in the past couple of years is utilizing technology to tailor the experience on whatever the device our consumer has. You know there's somebody out there who's still on dial-up, if that still exists. Stephanie: You caught me Paul. Paul: With a new browser, right. It doesn't matter how efficient your site is or your servers are like, you have to tailor the experience, strip down the page load, the content, rejigger the Java script on the fly depending on that individual's device because as far as they're concerned, they may have a iPhone 5 that hasn't been updated in five years but they still like that experience. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree. That's really important because I think a lot of people assume that users are always on a newest and the latest and greatest. The one thing, yeah, I had, let's see, we're doing a study on I think Google maps users in India and the majority of them were on such outdated versions that they were never seeing updated streets or an update at all in maybe a year or two. Stephanie: I think it's just a good reminder that a lot of people are on older versions of things, not just in other countries but here too. Like you said, some people still use dial-up. Sowe have a quick lightning round coming up. But before that, I wanted to ask you one last question because I love your excitement towards the company and your energy behind it and I wanted to hear what is the best day in the office look like for you? Paul: The best day in the office, let me think about that for a moment. Stephanie: Yeah. Paul: As I mentioned before I'm usually willing to go every day. It's when I'm in the thick of it, I'm a great delegator I believe, and I think the people who work with and for me would say so. Paul: But I'm most happy when I'm in the thick of it, not being Mr. Executive and my people interacting with, like a peer to some degree, in terms of coming up with ideas, debating certain concepts, making things happens. Paul: It's still small enough company where many people I'll be a jack of all trades and that's where I've shined in my past of, okay, rolling the sleeves up and figuring it out and having to learn things. Paul: Many of my jobs have reflected that. So, that's when I'm happiest, when I'm learning something new. I think I've been told I'm really, really curious to a fault. I ask too many questions sometimes. Stephanie: I think that's a good thing. Paul: Yeah, I guess so. But that's what jazzes me, being in the thick of things, making things happen. Now having said that, as a C level executive you have certain programs and responsibilities to create a conducive environment for your people to work in to make them feel trusted, to stretch them to the extent of their capabilities giving them a vision. Paul: On the other hand, I've always been a believer of an executive being able to walk the talk having done something. Being able to do it, without actually doing it. That lends a certain amount of credibility in your interaction with your staff. So, I think that's very important. Back to your point, that's what makes me happy is just being in the thick of it. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. I like that idea and I heard a ratio or it was a metric that an executive used called the say do ratio, and it was how much do you do what you're going to say you do, and that's how he gained the trust with a new company he was joining, was he actually tracked it. Paul: Well in a small company I think my first interaction with an associate at CW is riding up the elevator that Monday, they had heard of me, and they asked my name and they heard that I was a tech guy. I was really the Ecommerce business guy and tech guy and they asked me about an email problem they were having. Stephanie: A personal or a company one? Paul: A company one, yeah. Stephanie: Okay. Paul: "I can't quite get this to do this." It was a sales executive or a sales manager that we had. She asked me a question not knowing exactly what I did so I spent a half hour tracking it down and getting back to her. Paul: Later when she learned, you're in charge of Ecommerce and tech and all that stuff. To me, in a small company like ours, you have to be personal, you have to be willing to help anybody with anything and follow up on it and get it done as opposed to always delegating and there's a balance obviously in terms of the work balance. Paul: But you have to show that direct interest in everybody's issue in what they're doing. Stephanie: Yeah, I love that. That is such a good mindset to be in, like you said. Especially coming from a larger company where employees might be like, "Oh this guy is going to just delegate everything," like showing them you're willing to get your hands dirty and help them with their needs and stuff. It's also crucial. Paul: Yes. Stephanie: All right. Next we have the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Paul: Okay, lightning round it is. Stephanie: Are you ready? Paul: I'm ready. Stephanie: Roll up your sleeves, get ready. All right. Paul: They're already rolled up. Stephanie: First, I'll start with an easy one. Paul: Yes. Stephanie: What's up next on your Netflix or Hulu queue? What are you watching these days? Paul: On my Netflix queue let's see, geez I don't watch a lot of TV so you're going to stop me. I have 30 seconds left. Mostly about historical dramas. I've always wanted to watch The Crown, which everybody has watched. So, that's probably next on my queue. Stephanie: Cool. I haven't watched that yet. You'll have to let me know how it is. Paul: There you go. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your travel destinations when you can travel again? Paul: Wow. When I can travel again? I'd like to go back to Tokyo. I've traveled so much in my career personally. One point I spent about 50% of my time overseas. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Paul: But Tokyo because I was born in Tokyo. Stephanie: Cool. Paul: And an American descent. But when I traveled I was always able to get there and see my cousins three or four times a year. But it's been a while. That would be my first place to basically get back to my roots. Stephanie: That is a good one. I love Japan. Paul: Yeah. Stephanie: What app or piece of tech are you most enjoying right now? Paul: I'm most enjoying, this is an odd app, is a password saver. I won't say the name of it, but I've been searching for the perfect one because I'm all about convenience and security and all those things at the same time. So, it's an odd choice but I found the perfect passwords saver. Stephanie: Yeah. That is actually a very good piece of tech. We recently implemented that at the company not too long ago and I was like, "Wow, this saves a lot of time. Who knew?" Paul: Absolutely. Get rid of the sticky notes. Stephanie: Yeah. All right. If you were to create a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Paul: My first guest I'm thinking big. Stephanie: Go for it. Paul: Because I'm thinking really, really big because I'm enamored of her career. I was actually at her first rally, Elizabeth Warren. It tells you a little bit about politics and no offense. Stephanie: That's okay. Paul: But I was still in Boston, I went to her first rally and I was just enamored, I've always been enamored of her and not withstanding what happens in the near future. I would just be fascinated to talk to her about her career and how she made that mid career shift and the [inaudible] plan. Stephanie: That's cool. So, it would be politics focused or more human centric on what's important when it comes to you? Paul: More human centric with a tinge of politics because I am interested in politics. Elizabeth Warren would be it. Stephanie: We could get her on the show. I would make that happen for you. Paul: You could make that happen? Stephanie: Yeah. Paul: That would be so cool. Stephanie: I could do it. Elizabeth call us. We're ready for you. Paul: Absolutely. I remember I've actually seen her a few times, in the crowd obviously. The last time was at a protest at the Boston Common and she was quite compelling in her speech. Stephanie: Well that's great. I will have to see if I can find that online. Paul: Yeah. Stephanie: The last hard one which you've kind of already answered this, but I'll throw it anyways at your way. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Paul: I think the biggest impact is the turmoil going around the big guys whether it's Facebook, Google, to some degree Amazon. What is the regulatory landscape, what is the antitrust landscape, how will they evolve, how monolithic will it be? Paul: I think I actually think about that quite often in terms of how do we enact with them, do businesses, make the leap into Amazon as a third party do, how do the algorithms evolve from a group perspective. How does privacy work? Paul: That really weighs on me in the context of thinking through how do those outside forces that are so monolithic in the tech industry impact Ecommerce. Stephanie: Well that's a big juicy one. We'll have to have a whole nother episode just to talk about your thoughts on that. Paul: Right, right. Stephanie: Well Paul it's been such a pleasure having you on this show. Like I said, I use Charlotte's Web. I've been around it for a while and I really appreciate you coming on and taking the time. Where can people find out more about you and Charlotte's Web? Paul: Well obviously our website, Charlotte'sWeb.com and I have a pretty fulsome linked in profile that shows you how haphazard my career has been but it's been a fun ride. Stephanie: Yeah. That's where I found out all about you. Well thanks so much for coming on. We'll have to have you back for round two in the future. It's been great. Paul: Absolutely enjoyed it. Thank you very much.

Welcome to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast. A show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry brought to you by Talkpush, the leading recruitment automation platform. Max: Good morning, everybody and welcome to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast with max  from Talkpush. Today I'm excited to be welcoming Paul Noone, who is CEO for HireIQ and someone who is in technology. And I've, we both focus a lot of our energy on the call center and the BPO market and service this industry, which is always hungry for automation and innovation. So we both love this industry and we can exchange our thoughts on this topic.Paul, thank you so much for joining me on my new podcast. Paul: Hey, thanks Max, I'm thrilled to be here actually. Max: So our audience, some of them will recognize HireIQ. And some of them will probably recognize you, but they probably don't know the history of how you ended up starting this business, or how you ended up with HireIQ.Perhaps you could walk us through that journey. Paul: Yeah, I'd love to. HireIQ is an interesting technology and we're very focused on the call center. And because the call center has this outsourcing process that's associated with business process outsourcers.Most of the organizations don't realize that, while Fortune 500 organizations, anybody with a product or service has a requirement to support through call centers or through service locations, they also do a lot of outsourcing. So they're organizations like BPOs, the large ones in call centers are Teleperformance and Alorica and Atento and Sutherland and 24[7].And those are the organizations that we help with  in the talent acquisition, part of this, you know, max, you and I probably talked about this before, but recruitment is the term that we use. But we're in sort of a special place in recruitment. We're in the engagement with the candidates, the acquisition of all the data that we aggregate as much data as we can in a shorter period of time.And then we provide it to the recruiters in such a way that they can quickly make a decision, because we're talking about maybe 10 interviews for every hire, we're really known for our efficiency. And then we're also known for the AI associated with how we do that. How do we tell whether a candidate it's going to be particularly good at this particular role in collections or in sales? Or in support?We do a whole lot with that. I actually got here about six years ago through the investors. So I had just, I was working with another technology company on disaster relief, and just sort of an interesting aside, Max, we had built a product around disaster resource management and that's where these large scales or, when you guys experienced the typhoons and we have the hurricane season from June through November and, being able, you know, the shift in technology, the shift to phones, being able to locate all of the things that you need when a disaster strikes is a really interesting use case.So we had gone pretty deep into that and acquired some large customers, the U.S Red Cross, but we were looking to move from the Red Cross division of emergency management and we were looking for additional investment. So I was on sort of a roadshow talking to investors and ultimately a lot of people made the decision that it, and it's a function of that market. But, without disasters, if you have a good year, meaning no disasters, you're getting no money into that particular part, the Red Cross every now and then they literally go almost to zero. So they actually need engineering, Max: Pure disasters once in a while. Paul: And oddly, when you're in that business, you start to hope for bad things to happen. So there was something wrong, but the investors didn't buy. Max: I think it's not just the disaster people. I have a feeling that a certain class of politicians also relying on a good disaster once in a while. Paul: Well, so there's politics in there, the weird thing about funding ,and how funding shifts, and things like that.I think that actually is what scared investors away, Max, and it's a shame in some ways. That what we were doing was, you know, enabling, with the Red Cross, for example, we found a billion dollars worth of resources that had been sort of lost, and it hadn't literally been lost. It was in firehouses and it was in other locations.And that sounds like an inventory management issue, but it's not when something bad happens in one part of the state. And then you realize that through a quick app, you can find it. Where everything is: shovels clubs, protective eyewear, and N95 masks, for example. Imagine that you put in an application, you find a billion dollars worth of resources, really through crowdsourcing your own people.Anyway, that app is lovely but the investors didn't think it was an investable market at the time. And so I just finished this and I had met with the investors here and I called them back and said, you know, so we'll probably shut this down. And they said, great, because we have something we'd love to share with you.And they brought me into HireIQ. I have a background in call centers. I was with Genesis as they were starting out on sort of the part of the first team. I want to say pre-revenue, but I want to say Genesis is a $2 billion organization right now, 20 years ago when I was with them we had less than $10 million in revenue. So building that to a public company and then moving on, but coming here was lovely in that the technology was solid. But it was  a function of focus. We were trying to do too much. By focusing on call centers and BPOs in particular, we ended up, turning into, from being a typical technology company where we might be losing money quarter after quarter to being one that was profitable, really understood what we were doing and then have been very zeroed in on that use case around language proficiency, around understanding our customer's needs and really, more than anything else, making sure that they're succeeding.So closing that loop and making sure that they succeed. Max: Your star product is the product called Audiolytics? Paul: Well, so Audiolytics is really the technology that underlies the audio processing that we do. So at the heart of what we're doing is, the origin story really comes around. While I submit my resume in a recruiting, in an interview process, what that does is it strips out my personality and my voice.It strips out the narrative. I moved from the disaster resource management effort into HireIQ, why did that happen? All of those things that you get to tell people in an interview process. So the origin story is really about how do we add a narrative to what's a two dimensional piece of paper that's supposed to represent me.And so with that, we started to create a platform that would say not only here's the resume and here's some qualifiers about me, but here's my voice. Max: It used to upset me so much when I started on my career and I would go and socialize, go to a bar anywhere and someone would ask me, so what do you do?And, you know, I didn't want to tell them my job title and the company I worked for, because I didn't feel like it represented anything about me. And it would always come up with some weird answer I would say, oh, what do I do? You know, I roller skate or, you know, or something, just so that I could come out and shine and that wasn't a social environment in a work and job search context.Also, what do you do? Should be the first question or rather who are you? rather than a resume. Paul: Tell me about your expense in this particular business is an open ended question that a lot of our customers ask, but asking open ended questions, which is an old interviewing technique and a valuable one really allows people to tell them more. To talk to the narrative. Tell me about your experience in this particular world. Tell me about your understanding of customer support. Tell me your understanding. Tell me about an experience that you had with your boss that may be positive or negative, but being able to do that and being able to do it asynchronously when, you know, we could collect lots and lots of those became really the most important thing.But Audiolytics is actually the parsing of that. The audio data in order to get a really good and different understanding. So Max, what it doesn't do, is it doesn't convert voice to text and then parse it that way. But, it literally is looking for tone. So it's in these frames of voice, it's saying that's a positive, that's a negative, that's a happy emotion, that's a sad emotion. We're looking for things that we know are important for a good employee, but are particularly important when you're dealing with call center agents. That they're engaged, they're alert. They're more active than passive. They're not expressing boredom. Which is really interesting when you can pick up boredom because when a recruiter gets this information, they're going to see an Audiolytics score that says, you know, this person is probably not someone you want to spend a lot of time with.And I would say more than anything else we're not dispositioning customers. What we're doing our best to do is to give them an idea of priority. Talk to Max. He's got a great score. He's good with language. He's got good scores with data entry and even chat. Max: I didn't know that your technology was able to detect boredom. That's remarkable. Would it be influenced by geography and how do you factor that in? Because you live in Atlanta, people are supposed to speak a little bit more slowly, perhaps have a drawl. You don't, but nonetheless, you know, would the software, not pick up on the intonation and think maybe somebody from the South is bored?Paul: So it's really interesting. What you're doing is, so engagement doesn't necessarily have anything to do with dialect. And in fact, the tool itself is just sort of mentioned there's no conversion. It's listening for something that would be appropriate for the cohort of folks who are taking it ,interestingly enough.It's actually self adapting, because the same tool is used for engineers and salespeople and support people — all should have a different dynamic in their voice. And so it actually has to adjust based on the people who are taking the interview. The people who are successful in expressing themselves in that interview, as well as the questions.The questions and the people are really the dynamic that you're looking for, but boredom might be expressed differently by an engineer, or by somebody from, a Latin expression. But, the cohort itself helps to define that. And so ultimately you have not only our recommendation, but you also have the answer.So what's interesting about it is how closely we track to what a good recruiter would do. In the initial testing, after we did the machine learning on it. So can we in fact pick these up at a high rate? So can we, in fact, identify that Max is more happy than sad? Can we identify that when he's taking this test he's more bored? When we do that, we match Max almost 97% against a recruiter who would be listening to those particular things. So imagine that the technology itself is so wildly accurate in a lot of ways. But you know, to that end, that's what Audiolytics does. We're really sort of the platform is HireIQ, and it's a whole series of ways to basically create a recipe of assessments to understand more about you more about whoever you're interviewing — at speed. So we're trying to get the recruiting experience to be three, three and a half minutes. So you don't spend a lot of time with these individuals unless you're really digging in on them. And then with the candidate experience should be less than 20 minutes.Max: So the questions are not picked from a standard list. Since you're working with open answers, you don't have to use the same questions with every customer. Paul: No, in fact, they're different in virtually every customer.  There are some that seem to be universal people do want, need, to understand what your experience has been with customer support.So, if you're going to be in that customer support role, you're going to have to have some experience in sales, right? That has come up. Max: Yes. For me, it's like a yes or no answer. Have you worked in this industry before? That's usually how they ask that question in a chatbot environment. Paul: So that would be a bad question for us.What we're always going to do is ask a question that asks you to elaborate on something because we do in fact, need enough content to understand the profile. We need to have enough of Max telling us about Max to understand where Max's orientation is in terms of sharing, communicating. For the question, is he too verbose? Meaning he may be struggling with answering a particular question and trying to overanswer a question, or is it too short, meaning maybe he doesn't have the skills to think through and is that enough for this particular customer? So there are all kinds of metrics, there are cohort determined, sort of thresholds. It's really fascinating. And now we've done about, you know, close to 5 million interviews with it. So we have a really good base of understanding of how effective it is when matched with outcome data.So it's really fun stuff. Max: Does it replace, let's say the first phone call? I mean, if you're going to look at the standard recruitment process to hire it replaces the first phone call. Paul: So really what it's designed to do is give you a complete understanding. So we have customers who might do it for the engaged at the front end.We have customers for who it represents the entire interview process. So  once they've engaged, they've completed it. They have the scores, they meet thresholds. Then it's appropriate literally for the recruiter when they engage with them to close them.  You've probably experienced this, particularly with BPOs is that there's a real machine, there's a supply chain and with the attrition rates that exist, what you're working your best to do is fill training classes. And what we're doing, of course, is trying to identify people who are going not only achieve the right goals, the metrics that they're looking for, but we're also looking for folks who have an orientation, which would suggest they're going to stay longer.So that's one thing that we're doing, but because there's such a speed element, to this we are really careful about, trying to do as much as we can in a shorter period of time, giving you a complete understanding so that that particular recruiter can sell when appropriate and be restrained also when appropriate.So somebody does, you know, in the U S we have to answer, we have to give everybody the same interview experience. So that means that if you answer the first question horribly, Max, I still have to give you an opportunity with the next 7 questions I'm supposed to ask in an interview. It's a fair interviewing process, even if you disqualief yourself right out of the gate.And so one of the things about being able to acquire this information, offline and, online, as opposed to in front of somebody, it gives that particular person, the ability to advance quickly through that particular candidate and prioritize who to sell and who to, again, disengage with.Max: I understand the benefit for the candidates to do a short interview and a short assessment and get through those things faster, but it sounds like it's more than just, you know, I mean are you doing it because you get dropouts when ,people are held up more than five minutes? Or is it at the request of your customers? What's the driving force behind keeping it just two or three minutes long?Paul: Oh, I'm sorry. So the interview itself for the candidate will be as much as 20 minutes, but we're trying to keep it under 20 minutes, really because there's a falloff Max. 20 is about the cutoff. If you've seen some of the older, you know, The 1950 based assessments that had a lot of triangulation, right.You're asked one question one way and then seven questions later, you're getting the same question phrased differently in order to validate that the first question was like the second question and your answer was consistent throughout. And if you know that that's going to be an hour and a half, you really start to wonder, is there an easier way to get a job? For this wage.. Max: But time is speeding up, right? People have a lot shorter attention spans. They have multiple conversations going on asynchronously with five friends at the time. And so I expect that the 20 minutes would already be beyond the comfort zone for some people who are remote.Paul: It's very, very close. And you see what we're trying to do. It answers that question: is it enough? What we're trying to do is the open ended questions seem very much like what a typical interview would be. So tell me about yourself. Tell me about an experience that you had. What would your last employer say about you?Those kinds of open ended questions are the things that seem conversational. And allow you to expand upon yourself, but in fact are dense with data for us to help make a decision. And so the tone, the tempo, and in fact, the content is even important, but only when you know that that petitioner has an alertness and an engagement that pleasantness that you're looking for now go back and listen to those questions.Is there even more data that we can mine there? And that's why on average, it's about three and a half minutes. Because some you're just going through they didn't meet any of my language proficiency thresholds or whatever. And now we can spend a little bit more time with the particular person that I want to hire.And that would extend, you know, that's when you advance candidates and things like that, but it really is. I agree with you. I think what you're asking in that question is how do you give the candidate an opportunity to advance themselves, to tell their story? And not be too efficient in the process, that would eliminate me being able to tell enough about me. And so I think this is sort of the best of both worlds. Max: Yeah. I get the sense that 20 minutes would be annoying if I'm sitting at home and I'm applying to 10 different jobs, but yeah. If I had a sense that this company could be a fit, they are interested in me, then, yeah. 20 minutes is no problem, easy. And certainly easier than traveling physically to sites. So, have you seen the same thing as we have at Talkpush over the last few months? We've seen an increase in the volume of job seekers, an increase in volume of candidates. And how has that played out for the rest of the recruitment funnel?Is it,  becoming a problem where it just means we have too many candidates and not enough jobs to offer? What kind of dynamics does that create for your business? Paul: Well, I think for both of us, what I would say is: volume is important because volume breaks process. The more, you know, we got to a point in the U.S, our unemployment rate was down to 3%, you know, at times probably lower than that in certain places.So it was in fact hard to get enough people to interview, you know, recruiters spent most of their time trying to pull people out of other companies. And then in a matter of weeks, as we all know, it went from, you know, less than 3% too, you know, a lot. And then we're talking about 52 million people at its height, out of work needing to quarantine and work from home. So all of a sudden the opportunity to interview was greater, but the importance of identifying somebody who was really looking for that job and really engaged and would do a good job with both the hard skills and the engagement that we're looking for.What everybody's looking for, to be committed to that particular role, over the long term that became even more important. So a 100%, I agree with you that the volumes changed. And I would say, you know, in the first, because of the way we're set up and because of the way people leverage boards, that we might've seen a doubling in the first month, which probably created some concern on our part. There was actually a cost every time somebody does an interview with HireIQ, rather than it being a, you know, we do a lot of processing…Max: and because we're doing processing servers, AWS, bills go off, Google bills, come up. I had all of that happen as well. Paul: Yeah. So, that sort of evened out a little bit. And while I would say we're up. We're also going into that season, which is a ramp, right? So we're looking for a lot of holiday seasonal workers right now. So I would say we're probably, closer to where we were maybe a little bit higher, but not as dramatically higher as we saw in the first quarter after the quarantining.And we're seeing some alleviation of that. I think we're seeing some go back to physical work, but, the other part, Max's you may have an opinion on this as well, is that I don't know that a lot of people were willing to let go of their jobs. So are people artificially staying where they were highly mobile in the first quarter? All of a sudden now they're thinking, you know, it may not be as easy to get a job in the next place. So, there may be a false sense of  retention taking place at the same time. Max: Well, yeah, I guess when things heat up again, we'll see whether all those new hires in the BPO sector from the last six months, are meant to stay in those industries.I guess it really depends whether they like working from home. If they like putting on a headset and getting in front of a camera, and working on Slack, maybe it'll work out and maybe they won't to go back into the field. Like, I do not have a crystal ball for that, but, I think that some companies are making a shift towards hire anywhere and opening the talent pool so much that they're going to be able to build a very unique group of people which have defining traits, which if you remove the geographical constraints and you say, now I can have such a broader group to choose from. Then you can create new constraints.You can say, I only want people that think that way, or that have this hobby or that are very meticulous or, you know, you can be very specific and that could create, you know, some very bizarre groups of people and  that could give the economy some lift perhaps.Paul: So Max, this is an interesting thing. I absolutely loved the whole train of thought. So I have  a couple of data points on this. I had a company at one point in which I did a lot. The company had lots and lots of training, and we started to do a model, which we were trained from anywhere this go to meeting in a WebEx type zoom.It was technology, but we were sharing screens. Let's configure it this way. Now this is how you do this. This is how you do that. And one of my employees came to me and said, do you mind if I do some work? So his passion, interestingly enough, was kimonos. So he did he sold, these beautiful kimonos. He invested in them. And what he wanted to do was be able to go to these shows in Asia where all of the best would be there, he'd be able to sell his kimonos. They'd also be commercial. I said, Sam, Do you think I care where you go to a meeting or a virtual training takes place, go do what you want to do.And by the way, then being skewed 13 hours is in your best interest. Now go spend a day there and carve out the two hours you need for that particular training. Just make sure that it doesn't affect your ability to do that particular piece of work, but I just so loved this and that whole concept of displacement.If we can, and  it's happening more and more in some of our customers. Assurion one of the groups that I heard speak recently, they're doing gig work now, Max, meaning you can opt in to when you're available, you know, you've got to schedule, but sometimes it's via social media, they'll say we've got surge paying.You've got a surge wage based on how much people, how much traffic we're going to have, you know, based on, on questions, we need to answer about the Assurion products. That to me, being able to opt in, to be able to do what you're passionate about and have that feed your work day is something that I think is really important.And I think that's where you get energy, you get energy by, you know, middle of the day being able to take, you know, take a swim in a pool. I get energy. I did something recently where I went out and I hit golf balls. First time since March, I used to play golf all the time. I'd say 10 years ago.I went out and, Max, doing something physical, like that, changed, I swear it changed my brain chemistry. So I think this whole concept of displacement is one of those things that's also going to enable people to do and maintain their passions. And because of that, we may be in, you know what we're doing with call centers and delivering work to location. I literally think that's the future. I don't think  the future  like I thought the future was cell phones. As soon as you don't physically have to go pick up those yellow slips, you don't have to answer a physical phone. You don't have an extension that's tied to a location. God, the world changes and in such a great way.Max: Yeah, you were telling me how you got to enjoy more time with your family in recent weeks. Somebody was telling me recently, an article about this reverse migration, which is happening, where people are leaving the cities, and going back to where they came from, to their hometown because of this pandemic and supported through the technologies of remote work. We are seeing basically these shifts happening everywhere and people spending more time with our family. So, on a bizarre way, family values, family traditions  we'll see a resurgence as a response to this crisis.Paul: Well, I don't want to be overly optimistic. Look, I think everybody's been through a trauma. And so, one of the things that I'm doing as a CEO, I'm sure you're doing it is giving people some room. Right? I want people to make sure that they... look, I have an employee who has three kids at home, all under the age of 10, who she's starting zoom meetings with, in three different rooms for children.There's a kindergarten class going on. There's a second grade craft class. There's a third grade class, all her room, she and her husband are working at the same time. It is insane what we're piling on people at the same time.Max: And the bandwidth. Paul: That's exactly right. So that's the other thing right? We didn't talk about this, but it's interesting. I read an article last night about why this is different. And this particular article was why New York city would never be the same. Because just as you said, there's an exit, maybe a million people have left New York city. The rates, the rental rates, the buildings that are empty relative to where they were.But, we saw something like this in 2001, with 911, we saw something, you know, we've had these, national crises in the U.S. 2008. And the contention was why this is different than those other times is because bandwidth exists right now. Bandwidth exists like it's never existed before.So now you have private equity guys that don't physically have to be in New York City, because it doesn't matter that you're physically there to run into somebody because that person may in fact not be there. So when people were telling me, and in fact, during this period, they said, they'd be traveling. I said, well, that's good that you're traveling. Are people willing to meet with you? Which is the other side of the equation, right? It's one thing for you to be willing. It's a second part altogether once you land in a city, are people willing  to meet with you? That will change. There's no question, but, I think some of the positive of that and believe me, I'm sure if you're a real estate magnet in New York city, you're super concerned about this. But, I think the freedoms that it provides for individuals is particularly engaging. It's an interesting thought. Let's put it that way. Max: Oh, if you're, if you're a real estate magnet in the suburbs, well, you're doing well. Anyway, we're going to a more realistic conversation because that will alienate my audience 100%. Paul: But the other part to that, but I would say, listen,  the thing that I get excited about is the options it provides. The reality is I think so you can follow those kinds of things in any direction.The reality is we need human interaction. You and I like to do what we do. I want to meet you. I want to run into you, I want to see you compete at a technology showcase. Those kinds of things stimulate me. So I don't think there's any chance that we don't go back to some more normalcy and sooner than later, more 2021.But I think taking a moment and understanding the lack of distraction. Which really is the way I described it early in this was, there was no sports. There were no, you know, the activities themselves that would typically take me off center or off of focus were gone. And so now I had family to focus on.Now I had what's next for the business. Now I had what's best. So I think the lack of distraction helps us to focus. Max: Yes. I see. I think that you were talking before we started the interview about the fact that, you're going to look for a different type of worker the call center worker working from home needs to be self motivated, autonomous and so on.If someone is now at home unemployed and is able to find, well, by force needs to find employment of that sort and then by force needs to build certain life habits around that. And then actually it gets through it and realizes, oh, this works. I can put in 5- 10 hours of uninterrupted work in a day if need be.And now you've unlocked something in him or her that they can carry for the rest of their lives, potentially that sense of autonomy and that ability to manage your day. That becomes something you can keep Paul: It's a freedom and it's magnificent. So rather than your work being dependent on your relationship with your employer or your boss in front of you, you're focused on becoming valuable, is your ticket to the next role that you have or greater responsibility or in frankly being as engaged in your passions and things outside of work could in fact, energize that in a way that we might not be able to today. I promise you, nobody's complaining about the lack of traffic.Max: Well, one thing, one thing I do complain... I still hear some people ask me, Max, you've got so much experience working with remote teams, distributed teams. How do you check on them? And like you just totally missed it. You don't. You're rethinking about what your job is as manager. But that question still comes up so often.Paul: Here's how I keep in touch with them. I engage with them on how do we make what you're working on better? How can I help? And then they'll tell me. Max: Yeah,  there are certainly a few ways.I'm sure some, some of my employees will listen in and think that's too engaging. But, it's great to see how your business has evolved over the years. I hope that we can be part of this bright future. And have more of these partnerships as we've had with some of our customers where they integrate your assessment platform with our, conversational chatbots and engagements to take care of the whole workflow.So if anybody's listening you want to match our two technologies. They work very well together and thank you very much, Paul, for joining me today. Paul: Maxm I love it. And I appreciate  your engaging in conversation with this. I love Talkpush, I always have, and I love in particular the fact that you're doing what many other people would be required to do.So being able to get out in front. Engage those people to make sure that they stay in touch and then keep that information about them. Just, you know, in a way that really becomes a system of record for employment. So, we're thrilled to be working with you. Thank you very much for your time today. And, we're partners, so anything that we can do to help you we're available.Max: Thanks. Paul, we'll both continue burning resumes and replacing them with conversation. Paul: There's a whole discussion about bias and all of the other things that we really should talk about it some time. But, I think the answer is engagement and we're both doing everything we can to enlighten people about who they're talking to and why they'd be a good fit.Okay. We've got the topic for our next interview, it will be about bias. Maybe we'll wait a few months for that one. Paul: And so we'll give people some time.Max: And the topic may be a little bit less dangerous in a few months time. Paul: Yeah. I think there'll be more light at that point.Max:  Great. Thanks Paul. TPaul: Thank you, max. That was Paul Noone from HireIQ, a company, which has figured out how to measure the empathy, warmth, and care of a voice and allows employers in the call center industry to evaluate those voices in a scalable way. If you liked the interview and you'd like to hear more about some of the movers and shakers from the high volume recruitment industry, please subscribe to our podcast and share with your friends.

Some highlights of the show include: The company's cloud native journey, which accelerated with the acquisition of Uswitch.  How the company assessed risk prior to their migration, and why they ultimately decided the task was worth the gamble. Uswitch's transformation into a profitable company resulting from their cloud native migration. The role that multidisciplinary, collaborative teams played in solving problems and moving projects forward. Paul also offers commentary on some of the tensions that resulted between different teams. Key influencing factors that caused the company to adopt containerization and Kubernetes. Paul goes into detail about their migration to Kubernetes, and the problems that it addressed.  Paul's thoughts on management and prioritization as CTO. He also explains his favorite engineering tool, which may come as a surprise.  Links: RVU Website: https://www.rvu.co.uk/ Uswitch Website: https://www.uswitch.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pingles GitHub: https://github.com/pingles TranscriptAnnouncer: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native podcast, where we explore how end users talk and think about the transition to Kubernetes and cloud-native architectures.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native. I'm your host, Emily Omier, and today I am chatting with Paul Ingles. Paul, thank you so much for joining me.Paul: Thank you for having me.Emily: Could you just introduce yourself: where do you work? What do you do? And include, sort of, some specifics. We all have a job title, but it doesn't always reflect what our actual day-to-day is.Paul: I am the CTO at a company called RVU in London. We run a couple of reasonably big-ish price comparison, aggregator type sites. So, we help consumers figure out and compare prices on broadband products, mobile phones, energy—so in the UK, energy is something which is provided through a bunch of different private companies, so you've got a fair amount of choice on kind of that thing. So, we tried to make it easier and simpler for people to make better decisions on the household choices that they have. I've been there for about 10 years, so I've had a few different roles. So, as CTO now, I sit on the exec team and try to help inform the business and technology strategy. But I've come through a bunch of teams. So, I've worked on some of the early energy price comparison stuff, some data infrastructure work a while ago, and then some underlying DevOps type automation and Kubernetes work a couple of years ago.Emily: So, when you get in to work in the morning, what types of things are usually on your plate?Paul: So, I keep a journal. I use bullet journalling quite extensively. So, I try to track everything that I've got to keep on top of. Generally, what I would try to do each day is catch up with anybody that I specifically need to follow up with. So, at the start of the week, I make a list of every day, and then I also keep a separate column for just general priorities. So, things that are particularly important for the week, themes of work going on, like, technology changes, or things that we're trying to launch, et cetera. And then I will prioritize speaking to people based on those things. So, I'll try and make sure that I'm focusing on the most important thing. I do a weekly meeting with the team. So, we have a few directors that look after different aspects of the business, and so we do a weekly meeting to just run through everything that's going on and sharing the problems. We use the three P's model: so, sharing progress problems and plans. And we use that to try and steer on what we do. And we also look at some other team health metrics. Yeah, it's interesting actually. I think when I switched from working in one of the teams to being in the CTO role, things change quite substantially. That list of things that I had to care about increase hugely, to the point where it far exceeded how much time I had to spend on anything. So, nowadays, I find that I'm much more likely for some things to drop off. And so it's unfortunate, and you can't please everybody, so you just have to say, “I'm really sorry, but this thing is not high on the list of priorities, so I can't spend any time on it this week, but if it's still a problem in a couple of weeks time, then we'll come back to it.” But yeah, it can vary quite a lot.Emily: Hmm, interesting. I might ask you more questions about that later. For now, let's sort of dive into the cloud-native journey. What made RVU decide that containerization was a good idea and that Kubernetes was a good idea? What were the motivations and who was pushing for it?Paul: That's a really good question. So, I got involved about 10 years ago. So, I worked for a search marketing startup that was in London called Forward Internet Group, and they acquired USwitch in 2010. And prior to working at Forward, I'd worked as a consultant at ThoughtWorks in London, so I spent a lot of time working in banks on continuous delivery and things like that. And so when Uswitch came along, there were a few issues around the software release process. Although there was a ton of automation, it was still quite slow to actually get releases out. We were only doing a release every fortnight. And we also had a few issues with the scalability of data. So, it was a monolithic Windows Microsoft stack. So, there was SQL Server databases, and .NET app servers, and things like that. And our traffic can be quite spiky, so when companies are in the news, or there's policy changes and things like that, we would suddenly get an increase in traffic, and the Microsoft solution would just generally kind of fall apart as soon as we hit some kind of threshold. So, I got involved, partly to try and improve some of the automation and release practices because at the search start-up, we were releasing experiments every couple of hours, even. And so we wanted to try and take a bit of that ethos over to Uswitch, and also to try and solve some of the data scalability and system scalability problems. And when we got started doing that, a lot of it was—so that was in the early heyday of AWS, so this was about 2008, that I was at the search startup. And we were used to using EC2 to try and spin up Hadoop clusters and a few other bits and pieces that we were playing around with. And when we acquired Uswitch, we felt like it was quickest for us to just create a different environment, stick it under the load balancer so end users wouldn't realize that some requests was being served off of the AWS infrastructure instead, and then just gradually go from there. We found that that was just the fastest way to move. So, I think it was interesting, and it was both a deliberate move, but it was also I think the degree to which we followed through on it, I don't think we'd really anticipated quite how quickly we would shift everything. And so when Forward made the acquisition, I joined summer of 2010, and myself and a colleague wrote a little two-pager on, here are the problems we see, here are the things that we think we can help with and the ways that technology approach that we'd applied at Forward would carry across, and what benefits we thought it would bring. Unfortunately because Forward was a privately held business—we were relatively small but profitable—and the owner of that business was quite risk-affine. He was quite keen on playing blackjack and other stuff. So, he was pretty happy with talking about probabilities of success.And so we just said, we think there's a future in it if we can get the wheels turning a bit better. And he was up for it. He backed us and we just took it from there. And so we replaced everything from self-hosted physical infrastructure running on top of .NET to all AWS hosted, running a mix of Ruby, and Closure, and other bits and pieces in about two years. And that's just continued from there. So, the move to Kubernetes was a relatively recent one; that was only within the last—I say ‘recent.' it was about two years ago, we started moving things in earnest. And then you asked what was the rationale for switching to Kubernetes—Emily: Let me first ask you, when you were talking with the owner, what were the odds that you gave him for success?Paul: [laughs]. That's a good question. I actually don't know. I think we always knew that there was a big impact to be had. I don't think we knew the scale of the upside. So, I don't think we—I mean, at the time, Uswitch was just about breaking even, so we didn't realize that there was an opportunity to radically change that. I think we underestimated how long it would take to do. So, I think we'd originally thought that we could replace, I think maybe most of the stuff that we needed replaced within six months. We had an early prototype out within two weeks, two or three weeks because we'd always placed a big emphasis on releasing early, experimenting, iterative delivery, A/B testing, that kind of thing. So, I think it was almost like that middle term that was the harder piece. And there was definitely a point where… I don't know, I think it was this classic situation of pulling on a ball of string where it was like, what wanted to do was to focus on improving the end-user experience because our original belief was that, aside from the scalability issues, that the existing site just didn't solve the problem sufficiently well, that it needed an overhaul to simplify the journeys, and simplify the process, and improve the experience for people. We were focusing on that and we didn't want to get drawn into replacing a lot of the back office and integration type systems partly because there was a lot of complexity there. But also because you then have to engage with QA environments, and test environments, and sign-offs with the various people that we integrate with. But it was, as I said, it was this kind of tugging on a ball of string where every improvement that we made in the end-user experience—so we would increase conversion rate by 10 percent but through doing that, we would introduce downstream error in the ways that those systems would integrate, and so we gradually just ended up having to pull in slightly more and more pieces to make it work. I don't think we ever gave odds of success. I think we underestimated how long that middle piece would take. I don't think we really anticipated the degree of upside that we would get as a consequence, through nothing other than just making releases quicker, being able to test and move faster, and focusing on end-user experience was definitely the right thing to focus on.Emily: Do you think though, that everybody perceived it as a risk? I'm just asking because you mentioned the blackjack, was this a risk that could fail?Paul: Well, I think the interesting thing about it was that we knew it was the right thing to do. So, again, I think our experience as consultants at ThoughtWorks was on applying continuous delivery, what we would today call DevOps, applying those practices to software delivery. And so we'd worked on systems where there weren't continuous integration servers and where people weren't releasing every day, and then we'd worked in environments where we were releasing every couple of hours, and we were very quickly able to hone in on what worked and discard things that didn't. And so I think because we've been able to demonstrate that success within the search business, I think that carried a great deal of trust. And so when it came to talking about things we could potentially do, we were totally convinced that there were things that we could improve. I think it was a combination of, there was a ton of potential, we knew that there was a new confluence of technologies and approaches that could be successful if we were able to just start over. And then I think also probably a healthy degree of, like, naive, probably overconfidence in what we could do that we would just throw ourselves into it. So, it's hard work, but yeah, it was ultimately highly successful. So, it's something I'm exceedingly proud of today.Emily: You said something really interesting, which is that Uswitch was barely profitable. And if I understand correctly, that changed for the better. Can you talk about how this is related?Paul: Yeah, sure. I think the interesting thing about it was that we knew that there was something we could do better, but we weren't sure what it was. And so the focus was always on being able to release as frequently as we possibly could to try and understand what that was, as well as trying to just simplify and pay back some of the technical debt. Well, so, trying to overcome some of the artificial constraints that existed because of the technology choices that people have made—perfectly decent decisions on, back in the day, but platforms like AWS offered better alternatives, now. So, we just focused on being able to deliver iteratively, and just keep focusing on continual improvement, releasing, understanding what the problems were, and then getting rid of those little niggly things. The manager I had at Forward was this super—I don't know, he just had the perfect ethos, and he was driven—so we were a team that were focused on doing daily experiments. And so we would rely on data on our spend and data on our revenue. And that would come in on a daily cycle. So, a lot of the rhythm of the team was driven off of that cycle. And so as we could run experiments and measure their profitability, we could then inform what we would do on the day. And so, we have a handful of long-running technology things that we were doing, and then we would also have other tactical things that he would have ideas on, he would have some hypothesis of, well, “Maybe this is the reason that this is happening, let's come up with a test that we can use to try and figure out whether that's true.” We would build something quickly to throw it together to help us either disprove it or support it, and we would put it live, see what happened, and then move on to the next thing. And so I think a lot of the—what we wanted to do is to instill a bit of that environment in Uswitch. And so a lot of it was being able to release quickly, making sure that people had good data in front of them. I mean, even tools like Google Analytics were something which we were quite au fait with using but didn't have broad adoption at the time. And so we were using that to look at site behavior and what was going on and reason about what was happening. So, we just tried to make sure that people were directly using that, rather than just making changes on a longer cycle without data at all.Emily: And can you describe how you were working with the business side, and how you were communicating, what the sort of working relationship was like? If there was any misunderstandings on either side.Paul: Yeah, it's a good question. So, when I started at Uswitch, the organizational structure was, I guess, relatively classical. So, you had a pooled engineering team. So, it was a monolithic system, deployed onto physical infrastructure. So, there was an engineering team, there was an operations team, and then there were a handful of people that were business specific in the different markets that we operated in. So, there was a couple of people that focused on, like, the credit card market; a couple of people that focused on energy, for example. And, I used to call it the stand-up swarm: so, in the morning, we would sit on our desks and you would see almost the entire office moved from the different card walls that were based around the office. Although there was a high degree of interaction between the business stakeholders, the engineers, designers, and other people, it always felt slightly weird that you would have almost all of the company interested in almost everything that was going on, and so I think the intuition we had was that a lot of the ways that we would think about structuring software around loosely-coupled but highly cohesive, those same principles should or could apply to the organization itself. And so what we tried to do is to make sure that we had multidisciplinary teams that had the people in them to do the work. So, for the early days of the energy work, there was only a couple of us that were in it. So, we had a couple of engineers, and we had a lady called Emma, who was the product owner. She used to work in the production operations team, so she used to be focused on data entry from the products that different energy providers would send us, but she had the strongest insight into the domain problem, what problem consumers were trying to overcome, and what ways that we could react to it. And so, when we got involved, she had a couple of ideas that she'd been trying to get traction on, that she'd been unable to. And so what we—we had a, I don't know, probably a, I think a half-day session in an office. So, we took over the boardroom at the office and just said, “Look, we could really do with a separate space away from everybody to be able to focus on it. And we just want to prove something out for a couple of weeks. And we want to make sure that we've got space for people to focus.” And so we had a half-day in there, we had a conversation about, “Okay, well, what's the problem? What's the technical complexity of going after any of these things?” And there's a few nuances, too. Like, if you choose option A, then we have to get all of the historical information around it, as well as the current products and market. Whereas if we choose option B, then we can simplify it down, and we don't need to do all of that work, and we can try and experiment with something sooner. So, we wanted it to be as collaborative as possible because we knew that the way that we would be successful is by trying to execute on ideas faster than we'd been able to before. And at the same time, we also wanted to make sure that there was a feeling of momentum and that we would—I think there was probably a healthy degree of slight overconfidence, but we were also very keen to be able to show off what we could do. And so we genuinely wanted to try and improve the environment for people so that we could focus on solving problems quicker, trying out more experiments, being less hung up on whether it was absolutely the right thing to do, and instead just focus on testing it. So, were there tensions? I think there were definitely tensions; I don't think there weren't tensions so much on the technical side; we were very lucky that most of the engineers that already worked there were quite keen on doing something different, and so we would have conversations with them and just say, “Look, we'll try everything we can to try and remove as many of the constraints that exist today.” I think a lot of the disagreement or tension was whether or not it was the right problem to be going after. So, again, the search business that we worked in was doing a decent amount of money for the number of people that were there, and we knew there was a problem we could fix, but we didn't know how much runway it would have. And so there was a lot of tension on whether we should be pulling people into focusing on extending the search business, or whether we needed to focus on fixing Uswitch. So, there was a fair amount of back and forth about whether or not we needed to move people from one part of the business to another and that kind of thing.Emily: Let's talk a little bit about Kubernetes, and how Uswitch decided to use Kubernetes, what problem it solved, and who was behind the decision, who was really making the push.Paul: Yeah, interesting. So, I think containers was something that we'd been experimenting with for a little while. So, as I think a lot of the culture was, we were quite risk-affine. So, we were quite keen to be trying out new technologies, and we'd been using modern languages and platforms like Closure since the early days of them being available. We'd been playing around with containers for a while, and I think we knew there was something in it, but we weren't quite sure what it was. So, I think, although we were playing around with it quite early, I think we were quite slow to choose one platform or another. I think in the end, we—in the intervening period, I guess, between when we went from the more classical way of running Puppet across a bunch of EC2 instances that run a version of your application, the next step after that was switching over to using ECS. So, Amazon's container service. And I guess the thing that prompted a bit more curiosity into Kubernetes was that—I forgot the projects I was working on, but I was working on a team for a little while, and then I switched to go do something else. And I needed to put a new service up, and rather than just doing the thing that I knew, I thought, “Well, I'll go talk to the other teams.” I'll talk to some other people around the company, and find out what's the way that I ought to be doing this today, and there was a lot of work around standardizing the way that you would stand up an ECS cluster. But I think even then, it always felt like we were sharing things in the wrong way. So, if you were working on a team, you had to understand a great deal of Amazon to be able to make progress. And so, back when I got started at Uswitch, when I talk about doing the work about the energy migration, AWS at the time really only offered EC2, load balancers, firewalling, and then eventually relational databases, and so back then the amounts of complexity to stand up something was relatively small. And then come to a couple of years ago. You have to appreciate and understand routing tables, VPCs, the security rules that would permit traffic to flow between those, it was one of those—it was just relatively non-trivial to do something that was so core to what we needed to be able to do. And I think the thing that prompted Kubernetes was that, on the Kubernetes project side, we'd seen a gradual growth and evolution of the concepts, and abstractions, and APIs that it offered. And so there was a differentiation between ECS or—I actually forget what CoreOS's equivalent was. I think maybe it was just called CoreOS. But there are a few alternative offerings for running containerized, clustered services, and Kubernetes seems to take a slightly different approach that it was more focused on end-user abstractions. So, you had a notion of making a deployment: that would contain replicas of a container, and you would run multiple instances of your application, and then that would become a service, and you could then expose that via Ingress. So, there was a language that you could use to talk about your application and your system that was available to you in the environment that you're actually using. Whereas AWS, I think, would take the view that, “Well, we've already got these building blocks, so what we want our users to do is assemble the building blocks that already exist.” So, you still have to understand load balancers, you still have to understand security groups, you have to understand a great deal more at a slightly lower level of abstraction. And I think the thing that seemed exciting, or that seems—the potential about Kubernetes was that if we chose something that offered better concepts, then you could reasonably have a team that would run some kind of underlying platform, and then have teams build upon that platform without having to understand a great deal about what was going on inside. They could focus more on the applications and the systems that they were hoping to build. And that would be slightly harder on the alternative. So, I think at the time, again, it was one of those fortunate things where I was just coming to the end of another project and was in the fortunate position where I was just looking around at the various different things that we were doing as a business, and what opportunity there was to do something that would help push things on. And Kubernetes was one of those things which a couple of us had been talking about, and thinking, “Oh, maybe now is the time to give it a go. There's enough stability and maturity in it; we're starting to hit the problems that it's designed to address. Maybe there's a bit more appetite to do something different.” So, I think we just gave it a go. Built a proof of concept, showed that could run the most complex system that we had, and I think also did a couple of early experiments on the ways in which Kubernetes had support for horizontal scaling and other things which were slightly harder to put into practice in AWS. And so we did all that, I think gradually it just kind of growed out from there, just took the proof of concepts to other teams that were building products and services. We found a team that were struggling to keep their systems running because they were a tiny team. They only had, like, two or three engineers in. They had some stability problems over a weekend because the server ran out of hard disk space, and we just said, “Right. Well, look, if you use this, we'll take on that problem. You can just focus on the application.” It kind of just grew and grew from there.Emily: Was there anything that was a lot harder than you expected? So, I'm looking for surprises as you're adopting Kubernetes.Paul: Oh, surprises. I think there was a non-trivial amount that we had to learn about running it. And again, I think at the point at which we'd picked it up, it was, kind of, early days for automation, so there was—I think maybe Google had just launched Google Kubernetes engine on Google Cloud. Amazon certainly hadn't even announced that hosted Kubernetes would be an option. There was an early project within Kubernetes, called kops that you could use to create a cluster, but even then it didn't fit our network topology because it wouldn't work with the VPC networking that we needed and expected within our production infrastructure. So, there was a lot of that kind of work in the early days, to try and make something work, you had to understand in quite a level of detail what each component of Kubernetes was doing. As we were gradually rolling it out, I think the things that were most surprising were that, for a lot of people, it solved a lot of problems that meant they could move on, and I think people were actually slightly surprised by that. Which, [laughs], it sounds like quite a weird turn of phrase, but I think people were positively surprised at the amount of stuff that they didn't have to do for solving a fair few number of problems that they had. There was a couple of teams that were doing things that are slightly larger scale that we had to spend a bit more time on improving the performance of our setup. So, in particular, there was a team that had a reasonably strong requirement on the latency overheads of Ingress. So, they wanted their application to respond within, I don't know, I think it was maybe 200 milliseconds or something. And we, through setting up the monitoring and other bits and pieces that we had, we realized that Ingress currently was doing all right, but there was a fair amount of additional latency that was added at the tail that was a consequence of a couple of bugs or other things that existed in the infrastructure. So, there was definitely a lot of little niggly things that came up as we were going, but we were always confident that we could overcome it. And, as I said, I think that a lot of teams saw benefits very early on. And I think the other teams that were perhaps a little bit more skeptical because they got their own infrastructure already, they knew how to operate it, it was highly tested, they'd already run capacity and load tests on it, they were convinced that it was the most efficient thing that they could possibly run. I think even over the long run, I think they realized that there was more work that they needed to do than they should be focusing on, and so they were quite happy to ultimately switch over to the shared platform and infrastructure that the cloud infrastructure team run.Emily: As we wrap up, there's actually a question I want to go back to, which is how you were talking about the shifting priorities now that you've become CTO. Do you have any sort of examples of, like, what are the top three things that you will always care about, that you will always have the energy to think about? And then I'm curious to have some examples of things that you can't deal with, you can't think about. The things that tend to drop off.Paul: The top three things that I always think about. So, I think, actually, what's interesting about being CTO, that I perhaps wasn't expecting is that you're ever so slightly removed from the work, that you can't rely on the same signals or information to be able to make a decision on things, and so when I give the Kubernetes story, it's one of those, like, because I'd moved from one system to another, and I was starting a new project, I experienced some pain. It's like, “Right. Okay, I've got to go do something to fix this. I've had enough.” And I think the thing that I'm always paying attention to now, is trying to understand where that pain is next, and trying to make sure that I've got a mechanism for being able to appreciate that. So, I think a lot of the things I try to spend time on are things to help me keep track of what's going on, and then help me make decisions off the back of it. So, I think the things that I always spend time on are generally things trying to optimize some process or invest in automation. So, a good example at the moment is, we're talking about starting to do canary deployments. So, starting to automate the actual rollout of some new release, and being able to automate a comparison against the existing service, looking at latency, or some kind of transactional metrics to understand whether it's performing as well or different than something historical. So, I think the things that I tend to spend time on are process-oriented or are things to try and help us go quicker. One of the books that I read that changed my opinion of management was Andy Grove's, High Output Management. And I forget who recommended it to me, but somebody recommended it to me, and it completely altered my opinion of what value a manager can add. So, one of the lenses I try to apply to anything is of everything that's going on, what's the handful of things that are going to have the most impact or leverage across the organization, and try and spend my time on those. I think where it gets tricky is that you have to go broad and deep. So, as much as there are broad things that have a high consequence on the organization as a whole, you also need an appreciation of what's going on in the detail, and I think that's always tricky to manage. I'm sorry, I forgot what was the second part of your question.Emily: The second part was, do you have any examples of the things that you tend to not care about? That presumably someone is asking you to care about, and you don't?Paul: [laughs]. Yeah, it's a good question. I don't think it's that I don't care about it. I think it's that there are some questions that come my way that I know that I can defer, or they're things which are easy to hand off. So, I think the… that is a good question. I think one of the things that I think are always tricky to prioritize, are things which feel high consequence but are potentially also very close to bikeshedding. And I think that is something which is fair—I'd be interested to hear what other people said. So, a good example is, like, choice of tooling. And so when I was working on a team, or on a problem, we would focus on choosing the right tool for the job, and we would bias towards experimenting with tools early, and figuring out what worked, and I think now you have to view the same thing through a different lens. So, there's a degree to which you also incur an organizational cost as a consequence of having high variability in the programming languages that you choose to use. And so I don't think it's something I don't care about, but I think it's something which is interesting that I think it's something which, over the time I've been doing this role, I've gradually learned to let go of things that I would otherwise have previously thoroughly enjoyed getting involved in. And so you have to step back and say, “Well, actually I'm not the right person to be making a decision about which technology this team should be using. I should be trusting the team to make that decision.” And you have to kind of—I think that over the time I've been doing the role, you kind of learn which are the decisions that are high consequence that you should be involved in and which are the ones that you have to step back from. And you just have to say, look, I've got two hours of unblocked time this week where I can focus on something, so of the things on my priority list—the things that I've written in my journal that I want to get done this month—which of those things am I going to focus on, and which of the other things can I leave other people to get on with, and trust that things will work out all right?Emily: That's actually a very good segue into my final question, which is the same for everyone. And that is, what is an engineering tool that you can't live without—your favorite?Paul: Oh, that's a good question. So, I don't know if this is a cop-out by not mentioning something engineering-related, but I think the tool and technique which has helped me the most as I had more and more management responsibility and trying to keep track of things, is bullet journaling. So, I think, up until, I don't know, maybe five years ago, probably, I'd focus on using either iOS apps or note tools in both my laptop, and phone, and so on, and it never really stuck. And bullet journaling, through using a pen and a notepad, it forced me to go a bit slower. So, it forced me to write things down, to think through what was going on, and there is something about it being physical which makes me treat it slightly differently. So, I think bullet journaling is one of the things which has had the—yeah, it's really helped me deal with keeping track of what's going on, and then giving me the ability to then look back over the week, figure out what were the things that frustrated me, what can I change going into next week, one of the suggestions that the person that came up with bullet journaling recommended, is this idea of an end of week reflection. And so, one of the things I try to do—it's been harder doing it now that I'm working at home—is to spend just 15 minutes at the end of the week thinking of, what are the things that I'm really proud of? What are some good achievements that I should feel really good about going into next week? And so I think a lot of the activities that stem from bullet journaling have been really helpful. Yeah, it feels like a bit of a cop-out because it's not specifically technology related, but bullet journaling is something which has made a big difference to me.Emily: Not at all. That's totally fair. I think you are the first person who's had a completely non-technological answer, but I think I've had someone answer Slack, something along those lines.Paul: Yeah, I think what's interesting is there there are loads of those tools that we use all the time. Like Google Docs is something I can't live without. So, I think there's a ton of things that I use day-to-day that are hard to let go off, but I think the I think that the things that have made the most impact on my ability to deal with a stressful job, and give you the ability to manage yourself a little bit, I think yeah, it's been one of the most interesting things I've done.Emily: And where could listeners connect with you or follow you?Paul: Cool. So, I am @pingles on Twitter. My DMs are open, so if anybody wants to talk on that, I'm happy to. I'm also on GitHub under pingles, as well. So, @pingles, generally in most places will get you to me.Emily: Well, thank you so much for joining me.Paul: Thank you for talking. It's been good fun.Announcer: Thank you for listening to The Business of Cloud Native podcast. Keep up with the latest on the podcast at thebusinessofcloudnative.com and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are distributed. We'll see you next time.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Paul: Did you go to any other places, besides the tiger farm?Todd: Yeah. Actually, they have a whole array of special animal farms. They had a crocodile farm, they had a snake farm, and they also had an elephant farm, and I went to the elephant farm, or rancher, whatever it was called.Paul: All right. Could you tell me about that? How did the elephants treat that? How was the experience?Todd: Actually, to be honest, I was surprised. I felt sorry for the elephants. I didn't really feel that sorry for the tigers, oddly enough, probably because they just lay around and sleep. But the elephants, you know, they kind of have to work.Paul: Right.Todd: I mean, it's definite work; they're put to work. And even though they've been doing this for years, for some reason, it just seems strange. Like they had a lot of the elephants chained to poles, you know, so they couldn't getaway.Paul: Right.Todd: You have to figure if you're chained inside, you know. It's kind of nature's way of saying that you want to go someplace else.Paul: Yeah.Todd: So, yeah, I did feel sorry for them. But, you know, they're really cute. Like you ride on the elephant, and then they give you, you know, this sugar cane. It's really cheesy; it's really commercialized. And they take you along this trail, and then every now and then, you can buy the sugar cane and feed it to the elephant. And then, the elephant does some little trick to show you that he's thankful, but it does seem pretty unnatural.Paul: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it seems unnatural, like forced. And you know, I guess it's kind of easy to be cynical about it, but essentially, we're talking about, you know, these animals. They're making money.Todd: Right.Paul: So, again, we're back to the kind of ethical or moral kind of point, you know. And I guess elephants are cute, and elephants have this, you know - we have this curiosity about elephants. So, you know!Todd: Well, one thing that I thought was interesting is that when you do this trip, like the first part of the trip, you're on an elephant, and then eventually, you get off the elephant and they put you on an oxcart, an ox-pulled cart. Then later on, you're on like a bamboo raft. But, you know, when you're sitting on the oxcart and you're going along, it dawned on me that you don't feel sorry for the ox.Paul: Right. That's interesting, yeah.Todd: You know, like I had a connection with the elephant. I kind of felt a little bit guilty. But the ox, like nobody, has any connection to it at all. It's just like, - Yeah, that's your job. You've been doing it for hundreds, thousands of years. So, you know, maybe that's it. Like the elephant, maybe in a thousand years, people won't even feel sorry for the elephant. They would just be taken for granted.Paul: Well, maybe, yeah. I mean, I guess, like you say, we've used the ox over time for farming and such, so they've kind of been bred and that's been their role. Whereas I guess, elephants do have that power. But I don't know, it seems a little skewed like that you feel sorry for the elephant but you don't feel sorry for the ox, right?Todd: I know.Paul: I mean, like why do we have this kind of categorization, where like some animals, we feel kind of some more of an emotional connection with them than others? It seems odd to me.Todd: Yeah, it does make you wonder.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Paul: Did you go to any other places, besides the tiger farm?Todd: Yeah. Actually, they have a whole array of special animal farms. They had a crocodile farm, they had a snake farm, and they also had an elephant farm, and I went to the elephant farm, or rancher, whatever it was called.Paul: All right. Could you tell me about that? How did the elephants treat that? How was the experience?Todd: Actually, to be honest, I was surprised. I felt sorry for the elephants. I didn't really feel that sorry for the tigers, oddly enough, probably because they just lay around and sleep. But the elephants, you know, they kind of have to work.Paul: Right.Todd: I mean, it's definite work; they're put to work. And even though they've been doing this for years, for some reason, it just seems strange. Like they had a lot of the elephants chained to poles, you know, so they couldn't getaway.Paul: Right.Todd: You have to figure if you're chained inside, you know. It's kind of nature's way of saying that you want to go someplace else.Paul: Yeah.Todd: So, yeah, I did feel sorry for them. But, you know, they're really cute. Like you ride on the elephant, and then they give you, you know, this sugar cane. It's really cheesy; it's really commercialized. And they take you along this trail, and then every now and then, you can buy the sugar cane and feed it to the elephant. And then, the elephant does some little trick to show you that he's thankful, but it does seem pretty unnatural.Paul: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it seems unnatural, like forced. And you know, I guess it's kind of easy to be cynical about it, but essentially, we're talking about, you know, these animals. They're making money.Todd: Right.Paul: So, again, we're back to the kind of ethical or moral kind of point, you know. And I guess elephants are cute, and elephants have this, you know - we have this curiosity about elephants. So, you know!Todd: Well, one thing that I thought was interesting is that when you do this trip, like the first part of the trip, you're on an elephant, and then eventually, you get off the elephant and they put you on an oxcart, an ox-pulled cart. Then later on, you're on like a bamboo raft. But, you know, when you're sitting on the oxcart and you're going along, it dawned on me that you don't feel sorry for the ox.Paul: Right. That's interesting, yeah.Todd: You know, like I had a connection with the elephant. I kind of felt a little bit guilty. But the ox, like nobody, has any connection to it at all. It's just like, - Yeah, that's your job. You've been doing it for hundreds, thousands of years. So, you know, maybe that's it. Like the elephant, maybe in a thousand years, people won't even feel sorry for the elephant. They would just be taken for granted.Paul: Well, maybe, yeah. I mean, I guess, like you say, we've used the ox over time for farming and such, so they've kind of been bred and that's been their role. Whereas I guess, elephants do have that power. But I don't know, it seems a little skewed like that you feel sorry for the elephant but you don't feel sorry for the ox, right?Todd: I know.Paul: I mean, like why do we have this kind of categorization, where like some animals, we feel kind of some more of an emotional connection with them than others? It seems odd to me.Todd: Yeah, it does make you wonder.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Paul: Did you go to any other places, besides the tiger farm?Todd: Yeah. Actually, they have a whole array of special animal farms. They had a crocodile farm, they had a snake farm, and they also had an elephant farm, and I went to the elephant farm, or rancher, whatever it was called.Paul: All right. Could you tell me about that? How did the elephants treat that? How was the experience?Todd: Actually, to be honest, I was surprised. I felt sorry for the elephants. I didn't really feel that sorry for the tigers, oddly enough, probably because they just lay around and sleep. But the elephants, you know, they kind of have to work.Paul: Right.Todd: I mean, it's definite work; they're put to work. And even though they've been doing this for years, for some reason, it just seems strange. Like they had a lot of the elephants chained to poles, you know, so they couldn't getaway.Paul: Right.Todd: You have to figure if you're chained inside, you know. It's kind of nature's way of saying that you want to go someplace else.Paul: Yeah.Todd: So, yeah, I did feel sorry for them. But, you know, they're really cute. Like you ride on the elephant, and then they give you, you know, this sugar cane. It's really cheesy; it's really commercialized. And they take you along this trail, and then every now and then, you can buy the sugar cane and feed it to the elephant. And then, the elephant does some little trick to show you that he's thankful, but it does seem pretty unnatural.Paul: Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it seems unnatural, like forced. And you know, I guess it's kind of easy to be cynical about it, but essentially, we're talking about, you know, these animals. They're making money.Todd: Right.Paul: So, again, we're back to the kind of ethical or moral kind of point, you know. And I guess elephants are cute, and elephants have this, you know - we have this curiosity about elephants. So, you know!Todd: Well, one thing that I thought was interesting is that when you do this trip, like the first part of the trip, you're on an elephant, and then eventually, you get off the elephant and they put you on an oxcart, an ox-pulled cart. Then later on, you're on like a bamboo raft. But, you know, when you're sitting on the oxcart and you're going along, it dawned on me that you don't feel sorry for the ox.Paul: Right. That's interesting, yeah.Todd: You know, like I had a connection with the elephant. I kind of felt a little bit guilty. But the ox, like nobody, has any connection to it at all. It's just like, - Yeah, that's your job. You've been doing it for hundreds, thousands of years. So, you know, maybe that's it. Like the elephant, maybe in a thousand years, people won't even feel sorry for the elephant. They would just be taken for granted.Paul: Well, maybe, yeah. I mean, I guess, like you say, we've used the ox over time for farming and such, so they've kind of been bred and that's been their role. Whereas I guess, elephants do have that power. But I don't know, it seems a little skewed like that you feel sorry for the elephant but you don't feel sorry for the ox, right?Todd: I know.Paul: I mean, like why do we have this kind of categorization, where like some animals, we feel kind of some more of an emotional connection with them than others? It seems odd to me.Todd: Yeah, it does make you wonder.

Finance Alternatives with Paul Boyd-Skinner Josh: Everyone out there in podcast land, we've got a great guest for you today. We've got Paul here from NoBNK, and he is a bit of a wizard when it comes to looking at a different way that you can do finance. This is especially critical in today's financial climate. So Paul, tell me a bit about what it is that you do with NoBNK. Learn more about finance alternatives at dorksdelivered.com.au Paul: So NoBNK is predominantly a non-bank business and commercial finance solutionist. I've been involved in nonbank lending for around about 16 years. So I've done all sorts of finance. I've done everything from home loans to commercial development, construction equipment, finance, factoring, all that sort of thing. And I'm proud to say that I've never ever put anybody in a loan with the bank.  Josh: High five! Paul: Look, you know, my adversity towards banks. Back in the 80s, back in the day when I got my first home, which was in late 1988, 89. You know we will be excited about getting our first home and interest rates at that time were around about 12% when we went and got our loan. The way it sort of worked back then was you go to the bank. And you're begged for a loan and they'd say, ‘Yes, yes, we'll give you a loan.’ And it was usually, you know, like about 70% or something that they give you, but they will do on a bit of a special, at the time for first home buyers where they give you 100% at interest only. We were living in a caravan when we first got married, so that was a pretty good option to get our own homes.  Josh: Absolutely! And upgrading it’s pretty low friction option, I guess. Paul: The only thing was the in-laws had to go as guarantors. So I now know that today is like a parental guarantor. Really wasn't heard of back then. So it was a little bit of a product for first home buyers. So we did that. We jumped in and we got the house and everything was going along nicely. And then we had to have the recession that we had to have. And our interest rates went from 12% to a 7%, 8.5% in the space of about six months. And just to give you an idea, the loan was $105,000. My repayment was $1,560 a month. Yep. And I was on $33,000 a year. So when you take tax out, 80% of my income was going towards paying my mortgage.  Josh: Yeah. Far out.  Paul: And it wasn't knocking 1 cent off it. Josh: Yeah. Just sitting there as interest only. And that is a scary spot to be in, because you're not sure if it's going to go up or down or left or right, or what it's going to do. Somersaults.  Paul: That happened with a lot of first home buyers over the years. Eventually, you know, it just got too heavy. I had to do up to 30 hours a week overtime to make ends meet, I was a fitter-machiner at the time,and you know, we ended up losing it. It's just the way it was. There were a lot of people losing their properties.  Josh: You weren't the anomaly. I don't think so. Paul: I sort of didn't understand what happened to me. I didn't like the banks at all when I worked it out. I've done a lot of study on the banks since then, or the banking system, and, you know, my thoughts on the global financial system is, I believe it's a world's biggest Ponzi scam. I've been open and honest about this for quite a long time, about how I feel about the banking system and I'm a bit like the disruptor.. I'm all about wanting to make the change so that it's a benefit for us, not so much just for them.  Josh: Yeah, well, I guess like I've done a bit of research into things such as the fractional reserve system and how that works. Paul: Does it work?  Josh: Well, how it works doesn't mean it works. No, you're exactly right. It's not a very good system, which is based on, now, nothing really. It's just based on numbers in a computer. It's not weighted against any real thing of intrinsic value. Paul: Well, have a think about that. So what a lot of people don't understand is that when you deposit money into a bank, you're actually lending them that money. It's a loan. You become an unsecured creditor, yet there is no security for that loan to that bank.  Josh: Yep.  Paul: It's a promise that they give you. We'll promise that we'll give you your money back.  Josh: After changing you bank fees or having it in there. Paul: Well, what a great deal for them, isn't it? They say, ‘Joshua, can you lend me your $100,000?’ Josh: Yeah, no problem at all.  Paul: Now would you want to say, ‘Oh, I need a contract with that?’  Josh: Well, normally you would. Yeah. You hope so. Paul: No. So what's going to happen, Joshua, on the bank is you're going to lend me $100,000. You're the bank, though. Not as a contract, but I do promise that I'll give you your money back and I'll dictate the terms. Right? So you might want 10% interest, but I'm happy to give you 1 ½. And you'll say, ‘Yep, I'm happy to do that.’  That's really what you've done when you put money in the bank, and just remember that one critical part. You're an unsecured creditor. Meaning that secure creditors, in the event of the bank collapse or whatever, secured credit is paid first and then unsecured credits. Josh: Yup. So in the situation where shit hits the fan hypothetically, we can all feel the recession, we can all hear it being spoken about, we can also feel some pressures around the place. If shit hits the fan and everyone starts frantically pulling money out of the bank, they've already planned for that, and that's what's been going through at the moment. Am I right?  Paul: Yeah, correct.  Josh: Tell me a bit about that for our listeners. Paul: Well, long story short is that there's three generations of savers, so you've got you've got your builders, you've got your boomers, and then you've got generation X, which is me. We've all been bought up as a generation of ‘get yourself a good job, save for retirement.’ It was all about saving money. Okay. The other thing too is that we had our children quite young, so you know, I've been married 31 years and I've got married to my wife she was 19, and I was 23. And, we had our children when she was 21. So we had our kids young, and if you think about my father, he was one of 17 children, so they had big families. So they were called boomers, you know. Josh: Huge families, but small houses.  Paul: Can you imagine having 17 children? And the house, there were three bedrooms, one bathroom, right?  Josh: One bathroom, 17 people. 17 children! 19 people. Paul: It's 28 years from youngest to oldest. You know what I mean? Like it's just a constant flow of, you know, at least seven, eight, nine people in a 3-bedroom house.  Josh: Should have bought a TV, so that there's something else to do.  Paul: Didn’t have TV back in the day, so what they did was they went out into the world and started the businesses and all that sort of thing and created quite a lot of wealth. And they stored that wealth in the bank because that's what they were told to do, you know? And they'll get great returns. So when I had those interest rates of 18% of my home, you would get 16% return on money that you had sitting in the bank and you know that's a fantastic return. But look what's happened over the years. You know, that was 30 years ago. Now we're down to zero negative rates in other countries. Japan has been at negative rates for 20 years.  Josh: How much money have they reprinted over there? Paul: Does anyone know why? Does anyone really know why? Or is it just like it's a bad economy and all this sort of stuff? So what makes the bad economy? When people stopped spending! If you're not buying things at the shop, then retail starts to drop off. I want to spend the money. So they're trying to force you to get your money out to spend. Banks don't make money out of people saving and make money out of people borrowing. So they don't want you having money sitting in the bank anymore. Their fractional reserve system, that doesn't matter anymore because they're reprinting money off loans. They make more money out of loans than they do early use saving. So the idea is to try to get that money out of the system and into risky investments or to just get you out there spending.  But when you have the majority of the world's population over 45 years old, that's when our spending curve drops right off. We're not out there buying. We're not down to supermarkets every week, three times a week, or whatever at the big shops. I'd be lucky to go to near Robina. I'd be lucky to go there once a month.  Josh: Yup. For those listeners that didn't hear you. You were saying the GFC is a light rain comparative to what could be happening. And I always say if it's been 30 years since a major recession and it doesn't hit right now, all that means is we're going to be getting a slightly bigger downfall before we're getting absolutely torrential rain in 7 or 11 years time from now. Would that be fair to say?  Paul: It could be any time. When you think about in Australia, we've had 28, 29 years without a recession. What has stopped that recession from happening? So back in the 90s when it happened, like 1990, 91, we had the recession we had to have, but they didn't do anything to try to stop it. You know, and as I said, the interest rates are at 18% so what they've done to stave it off every year, you know, because the next government that comes in needs to be leaving it in a good place. They don't want to be the government that caused the recession. Right.  Josh: The inevitable recession. Paul: The inevitable recession. And when you look at what the US in particular, they've had about seven or eight in that amount of time. Australia have had none. So every time that you look at the interest rate table and you look at different things that's happened, like the 9/11, the GFC, they've dropped rates 3% to 6% in order to stave off that recession. Probably the other recession that we had to have. And now we're getting down to zero. We will be at zero. We're 100% going to zero. Where do they go? Where do they go if we had some major problem, like a GFC or whatever again or a reset? How do they fix that? Josh: I don't know. How do they reset that? They can’t.  Paul: They can't! There was a paper written 18 months ago by the IMF, and in that paper, they said that they are working on models to make -4% to -5% feasible. Josh: All right. Paul: So try to get your head around that.  Josh: I get paid to have a house. Is that right?  Paul: That's already happening overseas.  Josh: I have read up about that. So that would mean that the more debt you've got. Go and buy a house now, ladies and gentlemen.  Paul: Why would they want to do that? Why would they want to get down to -4% to -5%? Josh: Well, I always say if they're getting down to those numbers, it's going to mean that people are going to be more wanting to get loans and get things like that.  Paul: I think it's about getting rid of cash because if they could get rid of cash and move it into a digital world, get rid of the physical cash, then they've got complete control. Josh: Well, see, the problem that I, and this is something that's come about over the last 10, 12 years. When cryptocurrency started coming around, if you're comparing apples with apples, and I'm not going to say that they're both exactly the same, obviously. But when you have a digital currency being compared to a digital currency, which is, if they're getting rid of all paper and all money becomes more frictionless to be able to move from the AUD to a Bitcoin or any of the other cryptocurrencies that are out there without it being is in the power of the banks or anyone else. How do you think they are going to overcome?  Paul: Well, I believe cryptocurrency is a red herring. I believe that it's just been set up for you to play with while they build their real money system. And there's a little bit of a showing of that last week. So in this IMF paper, what they actually said is that they would introduce e-money. They call it e-money. And basically what that means is that that item there is $100. They say, ‘Joshua, you know, that's $100 if you pay cash or $95 if you use e-money.’ And you go, ‘Well, I'll use e-money.’ So that's how they destroy cash. So they make it worth less than what it is. That's how they get rid of it.  There's a bank in Sweden, and the currency in Sweden is krona. The central bank in Sweden has announced the e-krona and they're in the second phase of testing e-krona. Josh: The timing of it's great.  Paul: And of course, it runs on blockchain because blockchain is a great technology. But yeah, it's a decentralized system? I don't believe so. I think it'll be a very centralised system, but it'll definitely be electronic or digital.  Josh: Yeah. Okay. So I guess the recession at this stage, you're saying, is inevitable. It's going to happen. Got a beautiful way to at least have people that are struggling a little bit in their business, whether that be because they need to have more finances bought into it. Or maybe you've got people on the other side of the coin that have liquid assets or liquid cash where they want to be able to use that and invest into something that's going to be giving them a bit of a better return without having to put it into the big nasty banks. How do you go about? How does NoBNK work?  Paul: So the way that NoBNK came around is that many years ago, I looked at many of the managed funds and different places like that where they would collapse. There were quite a few here on the Gold Coast where a lot of those managed funds collapsed and the person who lost that was the investor every single time.  And it's only because the managed funds, number one, they think like a bank. And number two, they take their fees and everything out first. I'm not saying that all managed funds are like this. I'm just saying that when you get that real control freak at the helm, that's when there's a problem. So I designed a system where there is no control freak. So it's all about putting the control, the choices, the security back in the hands of the investor. And the number one thing is the trust. You know, because I think that we put a lot of trust in these organisations, in the corporate side, the banks and a lot of these managed funds. That's what we were told. You know, this is what you do. And I think they’ve broken our trust. I think they've broken our trust big time. You know?  The way that NoBNK is set up is that we make our number one product service. You know, everybody wants service. Well, the banking model can't give you service. It's impossible because of the way that their pecking order is designed. So their pecking order is profits first, shareholders second, then clients, then employees, that's the pecking order. They can't give you service. They don't make money out of service.  We're not about that. We're about, if we create that service for you, where you're having a great experience and you feel that you've got the trust and you will have to trust because what I say to people is, who's the one person that you trust more than anybody else in the world? To make the right finance decision for you. It's yourself, right? You trust yourself more than anybody else. So why are we giving that away? Why are we giving that trust away to the banks? So what we've done with this platform is that we're going to make you the bank.  Josh: Okay.  Paul: If I want to borrow money from you, why do I have to go to a bank to do that? You put your money in the bank and then I go and borrow the money from the bank. That's your money that's in the bank. That's not theirs. So why not just borrow directly from you? So the platform is set up where we facilitate accurate information between somebody who wants to borrow money and someone who wants to lend it. So the terms are all worked out, and if the borrower is happy to go, and the lender is happy to go, we just put those two together. That's all we do. And they've paid monthly returns in events on their investment. I don't know how many other investments you get paid monthly in advance, and it's direct in the security goes into the investor's name. Josh: Okay. So let's say I'm new to the idea and I'm going, ‘Okay. Yeah. Stuff the banks. They've stuffed me over too many times.’ Without saying the bank that I'm with, I can see the interest rates that I could be getting just changing to another bank, I could be saving $11,000 a year in mortgage repayments, and I had to look and I thought, ‘Ah, it's too hard.’ How hard is it? Or how would I go about moving a lot like a house?  Paul: The area that we're not going after at the moment is the consumer market. It's very regulated. There are a lot of rules around that market. We'll get to that. We'll get to that market. But the area that we want to look after, first of all, is the business and commercial arena. I think that if you look after the business side of things first and the business owner, they're gonna have to worry about their day-to-day things rather than worrying about when the next dollars, you know, how they're gonna pay their bills, if the bank's going to foreclose on them and the house is tied to that loan and all that sort of stuff.  So we look at things a lot more commercially and it won't always need to be property initially. There’s a lot of lending that happens out there that a lot of people don't know about, where you might have some text it or you need to, you want to jump on an opportunity pretty quickly and all this sort of stuff. So they use private, short-term lending and that short-term lending could be a loan that's anything from 3 months to 3 years. It’s not a 30-year loan and all that sort of stuff, and it's just about jumping onto an opportunity or it could be getting out of trouble. You know, ‘We're in a bit of trouble over here. We need to pay back the bank and get some cash flow into our business as well so that we can stay afloat.’ So really, we're more targeting that area there at first, which is perfect. Yeah. Well, I think it's an area that's very under-serviced.  And the other area that we're targeting, and this, as I said before, is those people all around the world, those high net worth investors all around the world that's got money sitting in the bank and it's getting them no return or very low returns. We want you to be able to negotiate the term between what sort of return you want. So really you get to choose the return you want. And the client gets to choose whether to accept it or not.  The way this platform is designed is that as an investor, we don't touch your money. So we never touch your money. We're not a managed fund. It's not a pooled investment. It's not a, you know, sort of property trust. It's not a contributory fund, none of that sort of stuff.  It's just one loan, one investor, one loan, one investor, one loan, one investor. So someone wants to borrow $1 million, the investor's gonna put up the whole $1 million, and we're just going to put those two directly. Josh: So it sounds like obviously it's a lot of advantages for both parties in regards to the returns that they're going to be getting, as well as the rates that they're going to be paying because you're cutting out the bank in the middle. What would be some of the, I guess, risks? Or does it take the same amount of time to process through if you wanted to get an equipment finance loan for $50,000 for a new digital printer or something like that. Paul: The process is quick, it all happens within 24 to 48 hours. You'll know how many people So as a borrower, you'll know how many people are interested in doing your loan and you'll get offered the lowest interest rate that they offer.  Josh: Is this a global thing or is this just Australia?  Paul: This will be a global thing. Initially, it's Australia, but we do want to take it globally because the problems that started in the world, the reason why I've talked a lot about Japan is because the reason why they've already experienced all this, what we're going through, is they’re the oldest population in the world, you know? So it all adds up to me. Their ages crossed over and over that 45-year mark, they're average age crossed over 15 or 20 years ago. So it comes in a lot sooner than what it has to us.  Josh: And their workforce is diminishing because of that. Paul: That's exactly right. And the wages aren't going up. All the problems that we're starting to have here in Australia, you know, property prices are going through the roof, but wages aren't going up. So the next step is how does somebody that's on 60 grand a year buy a million dollar property in Sydney? Well, I'll have to have a 70-year mortgage just like they have in Japan. You can see it. You're watching the pattern globally. It's happening all through Europe. You know, there are 30 countries in the Eurozone now that are on zero and negative rates and the lowest is -0.75.  Josh: All right. That's nuts. It's nuts when you think about it, and as you were saying, like it was only 30 years ago, we had the last recession, and so for Japan to be at the position...  Paul: 20% 30 years ago. Now the -0.5.  Josh: And that all comes down to the workforce and the economy, and that's where we're, as you said, we're heading towards the potential issue here.  If someone wants to jump in and jump onto NoBNK or hear any more information, how do they go about sort of doing that? Paul: The good thing about us is we can look after you no matter where you are in Australia and then as I said, that eventually, New Zealand will be pretty quick, but then we'll be going into places like the UK and America and things like that as well. This is something that can go global and that's the whole idea is that we're about like, you know, if you're going to disrupt your models and make it worthwhile.  Josh: Absolutely. If you’re going to kick the big in the head you may as well do it globally.  Paul: They had their place and as I said, we're not going to manage, we're not going to take your money and just go and do a hope and pray thing like many do. Your money stays in the bank under your control, so nothing changes, right? The only thing that changes is you get the opportunity to be able to have a crack at one of these deals and become the bank.  And your worst case scenario is you're sitting there with a security in your name and you're getting a return. Whereas what's your security in the bank? There isn't any, but if you don't win the deal, because it's going to be like an auction type system where you make a bid on what sort of return you want, then nothing's changed in your life. You still get your money sitting in the bank, you know? No one's touching it. No one's taking any fees off you or any of that sort of thing.  We're all about mitigating risks. We've got to mitigate the risk for the borrower, the lender, and for ourselves. So it's about everybody having this happy equilibrium, you know? That's how we're going to structure this thing.  We've got a whole website there. It’s NoBNK.com.au. And the reason why we got B N K is because ASIC won't let us use the word ‘bank’. It's a swear word. So we call ourselves NoBNK and we advertise as NoBNK does that, which has a double meaning. NoBNK does that. Josh: Perfect. As an investor and a borrower, what's the starting and ending amounts you can go for.  Paul: Because we're starting with the property component of it first of all, the minimum line would probably be around the $50,000 mark. This is why we're up to sophisticated investors. So this is some for your institutional versus, or you know, like your mum and dad's and things like that. You must be a high net worth. You know, I know people out there, they have tens of millions just sitting in the bank.  Josh: Yep.  Paul: Globally. So you might have somebody, you might have a deal here in Australia. There might be somebody in Japan that makes a bid on the deal and all of a sudden they're getting a return of 4%, 5%, 6%, 7%, whatever it is, whatever that agreed return is, where they're getting nothing over there, but they've actually got to pay to put their money in the bank over there. So it's a really good outcome because, you know, we just let the market set itself dynamically. There is no ‘ring Paul up and say, “Mate, what interest rate can I get?”’ There's none of that anymore. It's just like, well, it's whatever anyone's prepared to bid and whatever you're prepared to pay. Josh: Yep. So it's win-win. Paul: And look, there's rules for the investors. I've got a pretty good record. We're doing this sort of thing.  Josh: You've been doing it for more than 10 years?  Paul: Yeah, about 10, about 12 years now. I've been doing these sorts of loans for some high net worth. And in that amount of time, we've had no foreclosures and the investors haven’t lost money in the capital. And it's just about managing it.  Josh: That's a good run.  Paul: Yeah. It's just about managing. You don't smash people when they're down. You help them. You don't have to be all hard about it. You know, you're a day late or two days late with your payment. It's about managing it. Nobody gets hurt. You know what I mean?  Josh: So how do you guys come into it? Do they just clip the ticket on the way through?  Paul: You have a gross line amount. You have a net loan amount. You got to add that first month's interest. There's lawyers involved, there's all sorts of things, which for the investors, it's great for them. It's their lawyer. So it's a lawyer of their choice. And you know, usually there's brokers involved in all the research, so there's nothing under the table. So there's no hidden fees and charges and all that sort of stuff. In our letter of offer, it's like, say for example, you want half a million dollars and it might cost $520,000 you know, like when you add everything up. So you say, okay, so your gross loan amount is 520, that's what it is. You'll see all the costs that are involved, all the rest of it, and you get the choice to say, ‘Yeah. I'm happy with that.’ ‘Well, no, thank you.’  Josh: Fair enough. Cool. Cool, cool, cool. I think there's going to be a big help for a lot of people that are feeling a bit of pressure, whether that'd be as an investor or they're looking potentially down the barrel of a gun for a business. They might not be going as well as it was. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Paul: There's lots of businesses out there that need lots of help in different ways. It's not just about, you know, finance and properties and all that sort of stuff. It's just about knowing that there are people out there that, you know, we'll have a chat about it first. I mean, whether you've been rejected by a bank, don't want to go to their bank or can't go to a bank, that's why we're here. So pretty well covers everybody. When you do those things, we tell them, you don't go to the bank, come to NoBNK.  Josh: I guess back in the day, there was like no-doc loans and things like this. This is from a business owner's perspective. Paul: It's a very, very simple process. So you know, the information that we asked from you is not onerous. It's really quite simple. It's a very quick application process. This platform that we've built that we'll be releasing in the next couple of weeks, it'll be automated. It's just a quick, you know, fill in the application process type of thing and you'll get SMS and emails and all that sort of stuff, and then so will the investors and they'll be able to start bidding on your deals straight away.  Josh: Sweet.  Paul: It's a little bit of a game changer, come to the market.  Josh: Absolutely. Yeah.  Paul: That's what it's about, isn't it? It's about changing things up and seeing if we can do it better and make a change, you know, a different change for the better for once rather than just doing the same as everybody else.  Josh: Really enjoyed talking to you and is there anything else you'd like to add before we jump off? Paul: No, mate, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. I'd like to wish everybody out there that, you know, there is hope. It costs you nothing to apply with us or to have a chat with us or anything like that. So, you know, your people wanting to, you know, they're welcome to have a chat anytime they like. Josh: Cool. Only advantages and as I said, a very welcome time for me to be talking to you about this sort of stuff for a lot of people out there.  Paul: Appreciate it, mate. Thank you very much.  Josh: If you have any questions and bits and pieces, we'll put a link down to NoBNK as well as Paul's details. If you've enjoyed this episode, jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love and stay good. 

This episode, we’re talking about people who are coming to Pittsburgh, whether it’s for work or just visiting.We’ll break down a report that suggests the city might be a better fit for tech workers than the mecca of the digital economy, Silicon Valley (gotta love our standard of living). We’re also talking about a recent article that probes the need for a new hotel at the convention center. (Hint: The answer isn’t very simple.)In between, we welcome the Breaking Brews Podcast’s host Jason Cercone for a chat about the business of beer and Pittsburgh’s place in the industry.This episode is sponsored by WordWrite:Centuries before cellphones and social media, human connections were made around fires, as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts, minds and inspire action.At WordWrite, Pittsburgh’s largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand before you sold any product or service, you had a story.WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story – the reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented StoryCrafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S story.Logan:You are listening to the P100 podcast, the bi-weekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news, culture, and more. Because sometimes 100 words just isn't enough for a great story. Logan:Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the P100 podcast. You're here with myself, Logan Armstrong, and co-hosts Dan Stefano and Paul Furiga. Guys, how are you doing?Paul:Great, Logan.Dan:Emphasis on the co-host there. You're the host with the mostest there.Logan:I try to be. I do what I can, but-Paul:Yes he does and he does it well.Logan:I get my mostest from the people I'm surrounded with. On today's episode, we're going to be examining tech jobs in Pittsburgh, and there have been a few recent articles for some vying to leave and some vying to stay that you may have seen. So we're going to be talking about that and seeing how Pittsburgh ranks compared with cities and metros around the country in tech jobs.Logan:Then we're going to bring in our good friend Jason Cercone from the Breaking Brews podcast. He takes a drink from breaking, excuse me. He takes a break from drinking beer and talks about the business side of it.Paul:Wait a minute, that wasn't in this segment. There was no beer drinking?Logan:Unfortunately no.Logan:We asked him about it and he said that he'd be happy to rejoin us.Dan:Logan, let's remember we're talking to the CEO of our company within the office, so no. There's no-Paul:Well that's fine. Let's chat.Dan:We don't have a video of this, but if you could see the winking eye. No, there is no-Logan:No beer during this segment.Dan:Drinking during this segment.Paul:Of course not.Logan:Okay, and then finally we're going to wrap up with what's missing from downtown.Paul:Oh.Logan:Indeed, mysterious.Paul:Question.Logan:That's right. You'll have to stick around to see what we're talking about, but we're in for a great episode so we hope you stick around.Dan:I hope it's not my car or anything.Paul:Okay guys, time to do one of our favorite things on the podcast. Talk about Pittsburgh getting another great national ranking.Dan:Another list, right?Paul:We're on another list.Dan:Yeah.Paul:This one's a good one. Although, if you're in the Silicon Valley area, maybe not so good.Dan:Right.Paul:A couple of weeks ago, Wallet Hub, which is an online service provider that looks at financial things, very popular with millennials.Dan:They make many lists.Paul:They make many lists of many different things. Top places to live in the country for tech workers. Pittsburgh, number five. Silicon Valley, not so high, which caused the San Jose Mercury News, which San Jose's a community that's smack in the middle of Silicon Valley, to write sort of a cheeky little article. Pittsburgh is better for tech workers than Silicon Valley? Question mark. Well, yes, if you want to live affordably, apparently it actually is.Dan:That's completely accurate. Yeah. The Bay Area, it's got to be one of the highest costs of living-Paul:It is actually.Dan:In the country.Paul:It has the highest cost of living in the country. And Logan, you were looking inside some of the rankings, and Pittsburgh ranked in the top 15 in a number of categories, right?Logan:Yes. So the three categories were professional opportunities, STEM friendliness, and quality of life. And Pittsburgh ranked 13th, 14th, and 11th in those, respectively. And some of the reasons that places like San Francisco and the Bay Area didn't rank so highly is that they would rank very high in one or two of these categories. So for example, San Francisco ranked third in both professional opportunities and STEM friendliness but then ranked 63rd in quality of life for reasons we were alluding to earlier. So it's good to see that Pittsburgh ranked in these lists as being as an all around. Maybe it's not top five or the best in STEM friendliness or professional opportunities, but it's well-rounded and our quality of life here is, according to this list, far better than some of our counterparts.Paul:And certainly as the community here has continued to transform, and I'm thinking now of Uber, and Apptive, and Apple's got a good presence in the city. Facebook's virtual reality company, Oculus, is wholly sited here in the Pittsburgh region. We're trying to attract more tech workers and we've got these great university programs, CMU and Pitt at the head of the pack, but others as well, where we're building this tech community. And I guess it does still surprise people in the more traditional communities, but it's legit. There's something going on here.Dan:Right. For better or worse, Pittsburgh will always kind of bring that blue collar atmosphere, that blue collar mentality, a bit rough around the edges. I talk about it all the time, but my wife's family, who, they grew up in California, they all lived in California for a while. They came to Pittsburgh here and they said, "Wow, I had no idea it was this green." So there's always going to be a bit of a stigma that the city carries around, but I think these lists show that to that the news is catching on here. And Pittsburgh is basically known now for the meds and eds and now tech. The reputation is definitely growing here and starting to overcome that stigma.Paul:That perception.Dan:Yeah. But there's ... Well, not to be Debbie Downer or play devil's advocate here, there are still the legacies of that history here that carries on, especially in our environment.Paul:Yeah. We still have work to do, that's for sure. I can remember when I first moved back to this region from the Washington DC area. I had a job in the south side and what is now South Side Works was still a working steel mill, and as I would drive across the Birmingham Bridge every morning, the smell of burning coke was my appetizer before breakfast.Logan:Morning coffee.Dan:That'll wake you.Paul:And there's been plenty of coverage, and legitimately so, that we still have environmental problems in the region. And certainly one of the reasons why the Bay Area, Silicon Valley, is disadvantaged on a list like this, is because there's such a huge economic disparity there. It's the most expensive metropolitan area in the country. Ours is not. Part of the reason Pittsburgh's so affordable, the collapse of the steel industry and heavy industry. So there's all this housing stock and we didn't have the kind of inflation maybe that a place on the coast like San Francisco has had, but we have economic disparity too, and that's something that we have to work on too.Dan:Right. I think that's being recognized now. We talked about a couple episodes ago here, that the city is starting to take a hard look at itself, especially in terms of the racial inequalities that exist here.Paul:Yes.Dan:Again, the three of us aren't the best people to speak to this. We don't live the same experiences that a lot of people do in this city, but we can play a role by listening and being active and playing a part in recognizing that. And trying to create opportunities, being part of the solutions here. It's going to take a long time for Pittsburgh to completely shrug off some of the legacies that came from the 20th century here, some of the stuff that might be dragging down the city, but we can do it.Paul:We absolutely can. And if we can, we'll put in the show notes, there have been a couple of interesting public source articles that have dug into some of these issues, and I was reading-Dan:Quite a battle in tech, here.Paul:It was a battle in tech, and there's one written by a fellow named Noah Theriault, I believe that's how his name is pronounced, and he's at CMU. And the conclusion of this article, which you found, Dan, I thought was really interesting. He said "Here many of us who come here for opportunities in the city's universities, hospitals, and tech firms, do so in a state of willful ignorance. We take advantage of the low cost of living, we relish the walkability of the neighborhoods. We gentrify. Many of us smugly believe that we are the city's rebirth, the salvation from rust and blight. Too few of us learn about the historical and ongoing realities that make it most livable." And I think that's something that's really at the heart of what we need to remember. It's great to be on lists like this, but really there is no Nirvana -Dan:Right?Paul:That exists among places to live in this country. We have work to do too.Dan:It's hard to put a number on somebody's personal experiences here. I think that's the crux of what you were talking about there.Paul:Exactly. Exactly.Dan:All right. We're here with Jason Cercone. He's the chief brand officer at Breaking Brews, also the founder there and they're a content network and digital resource platform for people in the beer industry. Not only that, he hosts the Breaking Brews podcast, which takes a pretty unique look at the beer industry. They focus a lot on the business side of things. So Jason, thanks for being here.Jason:Thanks for having me guys.Dan:Awesome. Okay. As we mentioned, what you like to do with Breaking Brews your podcast and kind of spins off of your business. You look at a pretty different side of things in the spirits industry, in the alcohol industry there, that people don't think of all the time and that's actually selling the stuff and getting it out there, right? Yeah.Jason:Yeah. What I discovered was there are a lot of podcasts dedicated to drinking beer and reviewing and having fun and those podcasts are all great, but I wanted to bring something different to the podcast world. And I started looking at the fact that we don't have a ton of podcasts that are dedicated to the business side. Which talks about sales and marketing and distribution, all those different facets that are very important and very critical to the beer world. That was where it really started to ... or where I really started to make it take off. And I talked to a lot of industry professionals that felt the same way. They said when they're cleaning kegs and doing some of the horrible work that goes on in the brew houses that they want to put on a good podcast and listen to something that they can learn from, and that was the resource I wanted to put out there for them.Dan:Right, well the industry's really exploded as far as the craft production or the craft beer segment goes. I think ... I'm just looking at some facts here from the Brewer's Association, retail sale dollars of craft beer in 2018, I think the most recent year of stats was $27.6 billion. You said you've seen that since you started the Breaking Brews podcast yourself, you started about four years ago, or is that just your business?Jason:Breaking Brews itself started back in 2014. This is actually my third iteration of a podcast. I actually did one, like I was saying before, where we just sat around and drank beer, and that got old after a while.Dan:Why aren't we doing that right now?Jason:That's a very good question. I know. I was quizzed on that when I walked in the door, why I didn't bring beer and I'm starting to regret that.Dan:We'll just have our first kegger podcast, here.Logan:Yeah, well that'd make for some good conversation, that's for sure.Dan:That's a great idea.Jason:I'm always happy to come back for a second round if you guys want me to bring some-Dan:Right.Jason:Good drinks.Dan:Great idea. But yeah, as we were talking about the industry is just enormous right now. We're seeing that too in Pittsburgh, right?Jason:Absolutely. Yeah. I mean when I started things in 2014, there was probably maybe a dozen local craft breweries and now you look at the landscape, there's over 50 throughout the region. It's incredible. So many of them are doing great products and getting it out to bars around the area and also creating an awesome taproom experience too.Dan:Why do you think that is?Jason:Pittsburgh loves its beer, man.Dan:Yeah.Jason:But overall I think that ... I mean we haven't ... we hear the talk about the bubble a lot and has craft beer reached its saturation point. And I've always been a firm believer that we haven't even come close because we're not even close to the number that we had, or number of breweries we had before prohibition.Dan:Yeah.Jason:I mean we're creeping up, we're getting close, but the population of all these different cities and states across the country is so much higher. And when I go out to events and I do samplings and I talk to beer drinkers, a lot of folks still really aren't aware of what's going on in the craft beer industry. So there's still a lot of education that we can provide and that was one of the main drivers of Breaking Brews was putting some education out there so people can better understand what's going on in the industry and what's going on with these products.Logan:That's an interesting benchmark that you mentioned there that the number of brewers before the prohibition. Is that a common milestone in the craft beer business? And are there things that were happening back then that are happening now? The same way?Jason:I think it's, it's obviously changed a lot in regards to how beer is made. Brewers have pushed the envelope to the furthest degree possible and then a little bit more. You see a lot of crazy ingredients going into beers that probably pre-prohibition they weren't putting donuts into stouts and Twinkies-Logan:What were they doing?Jason:Breakfast cereal. I know it's like they weren't living their best life at all. However, a lot has changed. It's just the question of people's tastes have changed too and it's what do they want? And that's what these brewers are constantly trying to stay on top of, is what does the beer consumer want to drink today? And that's why I think you see such a variety out there in the market.Dan:Is it fair to say that it's easier to start a brewery round now or at least, somebody can be in their basement and actually trying to kickstart their own beer?Jason:That's probably the biggest misconception is that it's so easy to start a brewery because it's like any other business.Dan:Look, I've seen the Drew Carey show and he had a brewery in his basement. I know how this works .Jason:That's one of the big problems when you see some of these breweries that come out and their beer really isn't that great. They're standing around with their friends in a circle and all their friends are drinking their beer saying, "This is the best beer I've ever had. You need to start a brewery." And that's all well and good, but if they don't have a business sense that goes along with making a good product or even a subpar product, if they don't manage it properly, it's just not going to succeed. So it's just like anything else. I think that the barriers to entry are a little bit less because a lot of people have done it, but the smart thing to do would be go into it knowing that it's a business and you have to do all the things that you would normally do to run a business, or partner with somebody that can handle that end of your business for you.Logan:Partner with someone like Jason, Jason Cercone.Jason:I am for hire. I am here if anybody needs assistance. I'd be happy to help.Dan:Have you ever, you yourself, have you ever actually started ... Well maybe not started your own brewery, but have you ever brewed your own drafts?Jason:I've partnered and done some collaboration beers with a few different breweries across town. I did an event last year where I partnered with Yellow Bridge Brewing out in Delmont. I just went out and brewed with them for the day and I was able to say that I helped and I call that a collaboration. And I've done that with a couple of other breweries too. And that's fun. I mean that's the brewing side of it for me. I've always been more of a beer drinker and I like to obviously talk about it and promote it and market it. Brewing it just wasn't really something I wanted to do full time. It's a hard job. I think that's where a lot of people look at that like a glamorous thing and brewers will tell you, those are long days. It's very industrial and they work their asses off to put together a good product. End of the day, they are dog tired.Dan:Sure.Jason:So yeah, important. If you're going to be a brewer, know you'll be working hard.Dan:Right. We talk about hard work there. We're talking about having a good business sense. What do you see are some of the secrets to say these successful craft brewers and the people that maybe ... even some of these breweries that say are smaller, let's think about Southern Tier years ago, nobody knew who they were. Now they've got their own brewery on the North shore and what are some of the secrets to some of these businesses that have made it?Jason:I think it's understanding how to grow and being very deliberate about it and not trying to just shoot the moon right out of the gate. Obviously you have to establish a loyal fan base and make good product at the same time. But if you try to go too heavy, if you're a small local brewery and you try to make a statewide distribution, your number one priority, chances are you're not going to succeed because you don't have the liquid to supply the markets. So there's a lot of different aspects that you have to look at, but probably the most important is to use a popular phrase of our time, stay in your lane, and understand what it takes to build that brand from the ground up.Jason:Don't try to get too far ahead of yourself before you're ready. And then once the time comes where you've established that brand, then you can start looking at ... popular thing now other than distribution is looking at secondary spaces. We're starting to see some breweries in the Pittsburgh area open up secondary spots so they've proven that their brand is good enough to support it and we wish them the best in carrying that out.Dan:Who would you point to as some really good success stories in the Pittsburgh area then and what they've done successfully?Jason:Oh man, that list is long.Dan:Yep.Jason:Yeah. One of the breweries that I work with, the Spoonwood brewing in Bethel Park.Dan:I was there just this weekend.Jason:Awesome. What'd you think?Dan:I loved it. It was my second time there. I had a great time.Jason:Yeah, they're doing great beer. Great food. It's a great tap room atmosphere. You really can't ask for much more than that. They've been ... they're coming up on five years.Dan:Wow.Jason:And I've been working with them since pretty much the beginning and we've been building that brand and we don't do a ton of distribution, but a lot of the beer that we put out there ultimately was just to build that brand and give people an opportunity to taste it. To where they might say, "Wow, this is in Bethel Park. I'm going to go down there and see what else they have to offer." Another brewery I work with is Four Points Brewing out of Charleroi. They've ... just under two years old at this point, actually just about a year and a half now and they're killing it. They're doing some great beer and then you've got a lot of the names that people hear of all the time, like your Grist Houses and your Dancing Gnomes and Voodoos and Hitchhikers of the world. Again, we could sit here and do a whole podcast where I just rattle off the list because there's a lot of good beer happening.Dan:Well, you're in luck, our next segment, we're going to list breweries for the next 25 minutes. All right.Jason:Yeah. Close off with reading the phone book.Dan:Exactly.Jason:Riveting radio.Logan:Now you've learned a lot of these techniques and methods. You have over 20 years’ experience in marketing and sales. Did that start off in beer, or and if not, how did you navigate into the beer industry from that?Jason:That was ... I mean that was broken compasses for days, man, that was ... No, it did not start in beer. I've been working in the beer industry – counting what I did with starting Breaking Brews – for going on six years now. I sold cell phones right out of college, landed at Enterprise-Rent-a-Car for several years after that. Ran Hair Club for Men here in Pittsburgh for about four years. And with Breaking Brews, when I started it, it was ultimately just to build something that I felt was a good resource that could teach people how to gravitate to these beers in a very approachable way. Because as I learned, a lot of people just weren't aware of what was happening around them. So I was able to parlay my skillset from all my years in the professional world into a business that now I can help the breweries and help the different businesses that I work with do sales and marketing and create a good customer experience. All those good things, all things that are very important to building a good brand.Dan:Bring it back a little bit locally here to ... Pittsburgh I feel like is ... we've got a pretty special relationship to beer here. And it's some pretty big names in terms of, you think of Iron City, Duquesne, there's obviously Rolling Rock used to be around. How do you feel like the city's adopted and adapted to this craft brewing? I don't know if you could call it a Renaissance because it hasn't been around until right now, but this upsurge right now that people are ... they are doing with craft brewing.Jason:Yeah I think with the breweries now, I mean obviously as we spoke about earlier, we've got over 50 across the region now. It says a lot for the fact that people are going to go to a good brewery regardless of where they're at. It's become very neighborhood centric where you look like an old neighborhood pub, that's in some respects, being replaced by the local neighborhood brewery. You're seeing them essentially on every corner, quote unquote. And I think that helps with the fact that these guys are able to grow their brands so well because then it expands beyond their neighborhood as well. But yeah, we have a very rich history here in Pittsburgh with beer going back years and years back to ... I mean, Iron City was the beer.Jason:And I think now you're starting to see more of a shift towards the craft brands and many of them have been here for ... You look at East End, they've been here for 15 plus years now and they really were setting some good trends for what could happen and how people could gravitate towards a craft brand. Same with Penn Brewery. I believe 1986, was when they hit the scene. So a lot of good things have come along that have really helped push it forward. And now Pittsburgh is becoming one of those hot beds and I shouldn't say becoming it already is. And probably our closest rival in the state, just like everything else, is Philadelphia. And I think both of us have a tremendous beer scene that we can be proud of.Dan:Yeah. I think if you ever see a Penguins, Flyers game, it looks like more than a few people have beers.Jason:Well now, you see breweries have gotten in with the rivalries, like Grist House, and I'm forgetting the brewery that they partnered with out of Cleveland, they did a Browns, Steelers rivalry beer.Dan:Oh did they really?Jason:Rivertowne and Sly Fox had partnered up a couple of years ago for the stadium series. And they did a ... Glove Dropper was the name of the beer. And they worked together on that and sold it in both markets and worked out really well.Dan:All right Jason, well thanks so much for being here with us, for everybody at home. If you're listening, make sure to visit. If you're interested at all about starting a brewery and perhaps finding ways to market it and get it out to the world, you can go to breakingbrews.com. Look for Jason Cercone and also look for Breaking Brews podcast. You can find that on all the major platforms including Apple podcast, Stitcher, Google play, Spotify, iHeart, all the big ones where you can find us. And Jason, thanks so much for being here.Jason:Thanks again guys. Appreciate it.Logan:Sure thing.Dan:Great.Logan:Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections are made around fires, as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story. WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest, or partner with you through our patented story crafting process, visit WordWritePR.com to uncover your Capital S Story.Paul:It's now time to talk about the biggest building that is not in the downtown skyline. We are talking about what is known in the travel trade as a headquarters hotel. In other words, if Pittsburgh were to host a very large convention, a large hotel would be designated as the headquarters hotel. In many cities, this is a large hotel that's attached to the convention center.Dan:Right.Paul:And that typically has somewhere in the neighborhood of a thousand rooms.Dan:Right.Paul:Pittsburgh – yinz don't have one of those n’at.Dan:Oh, they do have a hotel connected to the convention center, right?Paul:Yes, yes. We do the Weston and actually Dan, I'm glad you mentioned that.Dan:Yeah.Paul:Because in the original plans for the convention center development, that hotel was supposed to be about twice as big as it is and if it were, it would be the size of a headquarters hotel.Dan:Sure. Well, I think that is, it's interesting that you're bringing this up and I think we rewind a little bit. The reason we're bringing this up is, on February 3rd, in the Post-Gazette, Craig Davis, who used to be the CEO of Visit Pittsburgh.Paul:Yes.Dan:Yeah. Visit Pittsburgh is the local-Paul:It's the Convention and Visitor's Bureau in part supported byPaul:Our tax funds and they promote the city to businesses like conventions.Dan:Right, yeah.Paul:But also to leisure travelers.Dan:Draw people into the city. Yeah, it's important. Yeah. This article, what it did with, again with Craig Davis here, he had a piece of parting advice for Pittsburgh is how Mark Belko, the writer introduced this and he did a really nice job with this piece. Craig wanted to build a convention center hotel.Paul:Right.Dan:And that's what we're talking about here. And there's a lot of back and forth about whether it should be done, whether ... what kind of impact it would bring on the city here. And he had some really good information about it, yourself, but a lot of people, they want to see more here. And that's what we're talking about today.Paul:Right. So in the tourism and convention industry in Pittsburgh, this is the third rail of politics. Nobody really wants to talk about it. And I look at this article in the Post-Gazette, Visit Pittsburgh, great organization. Craig Davis, very effective leader and he's been hired to run a similar organization in Dallas. Smart person. He's in Dallas now, so he can kind of say, what maybe he couldn't say before when he was in Pittsburgh. And for people in his business, his line of work, you need to have a convention center hotel. The thing is, to build that would cost about, Oh, kind of like the same amount of money to build PNC Park or Heinz Field.Dan:Right? Yeah. In this article here, they have an estimate of $350,000 to $400,000 a room to build.Paul:Or in other words-Dan:That's all.Paul:Yeah. $240 million.Dan:Right. That's for a 600-room hotel.Paul:Exactly.Dan:Yeah.Paul:It's a lot of money. And it was not easy to get PNC Park and Heinz Field built. There was actually a referendum on the ballot one year that failed. It was called the Regional Renaissance Initiative. I mean we put renaissance in the name of everything, don't we? And it was after that, that a deal was brokered. A lot of critics said behind closed doors and smoke-filled back rooms that wound up producing Heinz Field and PNC Park. There doesn't seem to be a lot of political appetite for spending that kind of money, again.Dan:Right.Paul:On something like a convention center hotel.Dan:Again here, Mark did a great job with this article here and he put it pretty succinctly here. He said, "In recent years, Davis' pitch has landed with all of the enthusiasm of a root canal."Paul:Yes.Dan:I don't know about you guys, I get too enthusiastic over root canals, but I suppose not many other people do, but the article does bring up a good point. That there's been a recent hotel building boom in the region, in the downtown area, particularly across the river. Some other smaller hotels that have cropped up here and there, the Marriotts and whatnot.Paul:Many. You could throw a rock from where we sit right now, we can hit the Monaco.Dan:Absolutely, yeah.Paul:Throw it across the way, hit the Embassy Suites. We've got the William Penn, which has been here for a long time. The Drury is in the old federal reserve building.Dan:Right and that's just a block away from the convention center. But the kind of full service hotel that, again, this is from the article here that Mr. Davis would see here, that would require huge public subsidies. And that's-Paul:Yes.Dan:I think the sticking point that it comes down to.Paul:That is the third rail part.Dan:Whether we want this here and I think it's one of those things where you balance. You say, "How much are these conventions going to be worth compared to the costs, the investments that you have to make in a city here." And it could take a while until the scales tip one way.Paul:Well, and what's very interesting about this is, there are statistics, there don't seem to be any statistics readily available to say, "Yes, Pittsburgh, you should do this." What we tend to fall back on, are a couple of really great seminal events. First was the Bassmaster Classic several years ago. And still of course people who don't know Pittsburgh want to depict it as a smoky mill town. And we had this freshwater national competition for bass fishing. And it went off really great. And that's led, as Mark Belko's article points out to Visit Pittsburgh getting into seeking sports events. And we've had, I can't believe this, I didn't even realize this number, 22 NCAA championship events have been held in Pittsburgh and we've got more coming.Dan:Yeah. Just recently they had the National Women's Volleyball championship out here.Paul:Yeah.Dan:And I think a big part of that comes down to, they now have a world-class arena to do it in.Paul:Yes.Dan:Where Civic Arena definitely showed its age after a while.Paul:Right.Dan:That plays a different part here. But certainly the downtown hotel building boom assists with that.Paul:Absolutely. Absolutely.Dan:Convention centers is ... that's a little different. And again, I think what, Craig Davis is trying to say here is, having it connected to the convention center, people love that. It's very convenient just to grab an elevator, have a little sky walk over to the convention center. It's not always a feasible immediately though, it's nice to think of these things, but it's hard to find room for it. And whether you're going to supplement what is already there or again, it takes money.Paul:Well, my point about Bassmaster, the other thing that happened of course was the G20 in 2009. Those two events put Pittsburgh, reputation-wise, on a world stage. In the article, Mark Belko talks about Milwaukee, which is a nice enough town and they have a baseball team that has a better record over the last decade of a postseason-Dan:They spend more than the Buccos, but that's a-Paul:They do.Dan:That's a whole other podcast.Paul:However, in terms of the hotel market, not quite the same size as Pittsburgh and they're getting the Democratic convention this year.Dan:Absolutely.Paul:Why does Pittsburgh not have that sort of convention? And if we did, aside from the monetary benefits of the convention itself, what would it do for the city in terms of raising the reputation even more and bringing more convention business to Pittsburgh? It's hard to say. It's also hard to argue that it was really cool to have Bassmaster or certainly the President and world leaders for the G20. That was awesome exposure for Pittsburgh. This is kind of a question of how much is the region willing to spend? And apparently it's going to have to spend something, in order to create that kind of environment.Dan:I think what's important when you look at these national conventions, particularly in the political arena, that is strategic by the parties too.Paul:Oh yes.Dan:Wisconsin's very important in this upcoming election to the Democrats. As is Pennsylvania.Paul:Right.Dan:But they were also in Philadelphia not that long ago, so do they want to spend so much more time in Pennsylvania and look, Wisconsin, the people ... whenever they do the Monday morning quarterbacking of that election, they did not spend all the time there. So it's ... they're showing ... it's a quite a statement that they are spending the time in Milwaukee for this upcoming convention. But it also shows that if Milwaukee can host something like this, then, so can Pittsburgh.Paul:Why not Pittsburgh, yeah.Dan:I think Pittsburgh actually held the very first Republican convention that was back in the 1860s or so. And we had the hotel rooms for that one, I guess. You know.Paul:We did.Dan:Yeah.Paul:Well, country was a little smaller then.Dan:Indeed. Yeah.Paul:Might be a difference, but I think this is a topic we're going to come back to again, so we wanted to put it out there for everybody. Again, props to Mark Belko and his article and the truth speaking, shall we say, of Craig Davis. We'll have to watch the skyline and see where this one goes.Dan:Well, most importantly, just as a final coda to this, and Mark's article did describe this a bit at the end, for the leaders that want to see this kind of change, that want to see a hotel down here, they have to show their work. It has to be ... You have to come to ... with studies from respected institutions, respected people, who are proving that, "Okay, hey, when Milwaukee hosted this type of thing, if they had a hotel here, this is the impact that they would have got."Dan:There are other areas here in Louisville and Columbus that are building hotels. What will those hotels do for their ability to draw conventions? Are they stealing them from Pittsburgh? You have to come up with that information. You have to present it to the leaders, not only in our government, but the community to approve ... like, "Hey, okay, some of tax dollars should go to this."Paul:Absolutely.Dan:And if you can do that, if you can convince enough people, then maybe it happens. But that stuff takes some time too.Paul:Well, and just a final thought on this since Craig Davis left Visit Pittsburgh, they are engaged in a search for a CEO. So I would expect that once a new CEO is named, one of the first things that we should be looking for, is some thinking around this topic.Dan:Absolutely.Logan:And we are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong, and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe at p100podcast.com, or wherever you listen to podcasts and follow us on Twitter at Pittsburgh100_ for all the latest news updates and more from the Pittsburgh 100. 

This week on the P100 Podcast, of course, we had to address the sinkhole that shook Pittsburgh (and fueled a day’s worth of memes). We dig deep to learn how sinkholes form and consider ourselves grateful to be above ground (it was only a few blocks away from us). Elsewhere in the episode:Alexandra Loutsion, a soprano singing the lead role in Pittsburgh Opera’s “Florencia en el Amazonas,” stops by.Priya Amin of Flexable discusses her childcare solution for working parents and gives a preview of an upcoming webinar.A Veterans Day tribute to those who served.----more----This Episode is sponsored by WordWriteCenturies before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story.WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S Story.Here's the full transcript from this episode.Logan: You are listening to the P100 Podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100 bringing you Pittsburgh news, culture and more, because sometimes 100 words just isn't enough for a great story.Paul: Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the P100 Podcast, the audio companion to the Pittsburgh 100. I'm Paul Furiga, here along with my colleagues, Dan Stefano and Logan Armstrong.Dan: Hey Paul.Logan: How you doing?Paul: Guys, we have a great episode today. We're talking about big black holes.Dan: Everybody's seen the hole now, but yes.Paul: Yes, we are. Singing a little bit, accurate gentlemen, Pittsburgh Opera.Dan: That's true. Yeah. We're not singing, fortunately, but there is singing in this episode.Paul: We have a great guest on, who's going to talk about a really cool initiative called Flexable.Dan: Yeah, it's a company that is involved in instant onsite childcare and it's an issue that affects a lot of working parents and I think you want to hang on for that interview. It's definitely interesting.Paul: And we're going to be talking about Veterans Day.Dan: Absolutely.Logan: Finish it off strong.Paul: That's right.Dan: Yeah. That's the way we love Veterans Day, actually, it's a great holiday.Logan: It's also (beep) birthday.Dan: Hey, that's supposed to be ... That's spoiler alert there, we don't want to talk about that.Paul: Is that how that wound up in this episode?Dan: I know. I can't do another little ... Maybe the last five minutes is just a celebration of (beep), or maybe it isn't. I don't know. We all have to hang on.Paul: I don't think so, folks.Dan: No.Paul: Stay tuned.Paul: All right, now we want to talk about holes, sometimes black holes, sometimes big holes, sometimes big holes, small holes.Dan: Sometimes famous holes.Paul: Sometimes famous holes. All of them, sinkholes.Dan: I feel like I've seen that in the news lately. I don't know.Paul: Yeah, something about a bus downtown, Dan, going into a hole somewhere.Dan: Bus, Dan, in the sinkhole.Paul: Dan, means the up streets [crosstalk 00:02:12].Dan: Well, you got to work on your [inaudible 00:02:15] accent, but you're getting-Paul: I don't think so.Dan: Yeah.Logan: The Cleveland is showing.Dan: Yes, exactly.Paul: All right, so, holes. I have a word for you gentlemen. You ready?Dan: Got you.Paul: This is not a Pittsburgh ethnic food, although it sounds like one. Karst. K-A-R-S-T.Dan: Yeah. I need a definition.Paul: All right. Karst, occurs in bedrock, that’s primarily limestone and it's like an underground cave system that water rushes through. The most common form of sinkholes is caused by karst. We don't really know yet which caused the sinkhole that happened downtown, what we do know is that the Allegheny River has a limestone bed. That is why the water in the Allegheny River is clear, whereas the water in Monongahela is brown because that's more of a mud bottom.Dan: You and I have varying definitions of clear, but yes, it is definitely cleaner than the stuff in the Mon.Paul: If you go upstream…Dan: Yeah. Oh, now like elegant Armstrong County.Paul: Yes.Dan: Beautiful.Paul: It is beautiful.Logan: Here's the thing, are we sure the Mon is only dirty because of the mud?Paul: I didn't say, only dirty because of the mud, I do know it has a mud bottom.Dan: Like, 40, 50 years ago, it was definitely ... I can only imagine how dirty it was.Paul: Guys, that's how that airplane disappeared into the Mon however many years ago.Dan: Correct.Logan: Oh yeah.Paul: Right into the Mon.Dan: Maybe it went down a sinkhole.Paul: Yeah. Okay. Paul: Back to karst, which is not like pierogi or kraut or any of the great ethnic foods we have in town here. That's the main reason in Pennsylvania that we have a lot of sinkholes and there are a lot of sinkholes in Pennsylvania. There's another reason. Mining. There's a lot of unchartered mines. We really have had an epidemic lately of things collapsing. The sinkhole that occurred in the South Hills. Big water main break.Dan: That's affected my house.Paul: Yes. That's another reason that sinkholes happen. Underground infrastructure. That might be the case here, we really don't know.Logan: Yeah. Either way, Pittsburgh, as you said, has had quite a history of some interesting sinkholes and there've been multiple cases in the past few years that have been documented. Around the world too, there have been houses that have been swallowed by sinkholes, but specifically here in Pittsburgh, an interesting story that I found just the other day, was a man who was actually just walking, and this has happened a few years ago, was walking underneath an underpass and just all of a sudden a sinkhole opened and he fell 10 feet into the ground.Dan: Where was this? What neighborhood?Logan: That happened in Glassport, he had to call 911 using his own phone and they came and rescued him an hour later when he was sitting 10 feet underground.Dan: You probably got a bad signal when you're in a sinkhole … no bars.Logan: I would think that was a prank call.Paul: One bar, which when they arrived they probably thought he'd been in a bar before he fell in the hole.Dan: Paul, I think you have some more insight though, right?Paul: This is such a big problem. There are two Pennsylvania state government departments, the department of natural resources and also the department of environmental protection, that have massive micro-sites including interactive maps all about sinkholes. So it's not your imagination, sinkholes are a real problem here. In fact, there is an Instagram account devoted to sinkholes in Pittsburgh. It's unofficial @pwsasinkholes, all one word. @pwsasinkholes on Instagram. Check it out, the bus picture's there, but so are a lot of other very interesting ones. I don't think the one from Glassport made it though.Logan: That's a shame. It might just be within city limits but-Paul: Might be.Logan: It would take quite a sinkhole to top what we saw last week.Dan: Oh it was incredible. Fortunately no one was hurt so we were able to make memes and social media was able to go crazy over this.Paul: Made the national news, international news.Dan: Right. It also reminds you though that it could have been a lot worse and that this is something that needs to be figured out. Infrastructure in Pittsburgh and all over Pennsylvania and the Northeast, it's just old.Paul: Your average water distribution system in an urban area like Pittsburgh is easily a hundred years old, so that may well be the cause. We don't know. One thing we do know, according to our government, our Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, the average sinkhole in Pennsylvania is four to 20 feet in diameter. This is 75 to a hundred feet, so it's not your imagination, that is one big hole.Dan: For this next segment, we're going to be talking about childcare in the workplace. We have a really interesting guest here with us. It's Priya Amin. She's one of the co-founders of Flexable.Priya: Thanks for having me.Dan: Absolutely. We also have Keira Koscumb. She's one of our fellow WordWriters, and childcare is very important for her because…Keira: I'm pregnant.Dan: Okay. It's super exciting. Yes. Keira, you’re due in January, and this is definitely something we've talked about in the office, just important stuff about childcare here, the cost of it, the availability of it. Priya, can you tell us a little bit about Flexable and just what you guys do there?Priya: Yeah, so Flexable was launched in 2016. It was born out of necessity, quite honestly. My co-founder, Jessica Strong and I, we both have five kids between us, ages four all the way up to 12, almost five up to 12 and we both had professional careers prior to being entrepreneurs, but the common thread that we shared was that childcare was always getting in the way of our professional development. First off, I was a brand manager at Nestle for years. I ended up leaving my career because I just couldn't find the balance between traveling all the time and seeing my children. I felt like my husband and I were ships passing in the night and we barely got to see each other, let alone our kids. So I ended up leaving my career and moving to Pittsburgh and I started a consulting company here and it was great.Priya: It was going really well and I had my second child and unfortunately I kept running into the same issue, which was, I couldn't do this. I could not go to a podcast recording in the morning. I couldn't meet with a client. I couldn't go to networking events because I had a three year old and a baby in a pumpkin seat. It was distracting and it was unprofessional and it was just really stressful for me. So that kind of planted a seed in my head to say, how can I create something that marries work and life together? How can I fit life and work together better? That was the start of Flexable.Priya: Flexable provides on demand onsite childcare at offices, conferences and events to help parents, to help women be able to have a seat at the table, to not miss professional development events, to miss work or to even miss doctor's appointments. We have some really great strategic partnerships with some large organizations around town, but the pinnacle partnership that we have is with Allegheny Health Network. We provide childcare at their women's behavioral health clinic to help patients get the therapy that they need specifically for postpartum depression care. We're affiliated with the Alexis Joy D'Achille Postpartum Depression Care Unit, and our caregivers go and provide childcare so that women can get the care that they need and not put childcare ahead of their own needs.Priya: We employ 32 highly vetted caregivers. These are people that have background checks, clearances, first aid, CPR, and they pick up shifts pretty much like any other gig economy job. So it's similar to Uber or Lyft from that perspective. A caregiver goes onto our system, finds a job that's on a Wednesday afternoon, picks up that shift. They have all the supplies that they need. They have all the play supplies, games, toys, crafts, all of that stuff, but they also have all the safety supplies. So corner guards, outlet covers, first aid kits, rubber gloves, Clorox wipes, all of that. So they arrive on site, they set up, they take care of kids, they clean up and they leave.Dan: That's fantastic. Keira, I know that's got to be something that sounds pretty interesting for you. Once maternity leave ends for you, I know your husband, he's got a full time job that's pretty important. Yourself, you need to go on a lot of client calls and meetings outside of the office. How does something like this sound to you?Keira: It sounds great. Daycare is expensive, you're on a waiting list. I think this evolution has happened with companies where in the past, maybe 10 years ago, I always viewed being somebody that wasn't planning on getting pregnant anytime soon, single and working. I viewed the companies as the enemy, they won't let me do these things, they won't let me be flexible with my kids when it's really not that way anymore. Companies are willing to pony up and be flexible, but it is just a time thing for parents. You know what I mean? You have stuff to get done at your job and you're responsible for things. So how you balance that guilt of, not letting your co-workers and your company down, with spending time with your family and kids and your husband and making sure that, what's the point of having this kid if you're just going to shell out a bunch of money for them to be sitting in a daycare or sitting with a nanny?Keira: So, this is definitely something that's attractive. I guess my question for you would be is, it doesn't sound like this is ever permanent. It's more like a temporary thing. It's not like WordWrite could ever hire Flexable to have a daycare that, Dan or me or whoever could bring our kid in every day.Priya: You could. Right now though, the best scenarios that we've seen with organizations is having childcare when it's needed, so at events or at a conference or on that one specific day, if it's election day, for example. We're also a relatively new company and I think that's one of the reasons why we haven't had these long-term commitments with organizations, but we're starting to see that. Amazingly, we have a 100% contract renewal rate with all of our customers because they see that once they have our caregivers at one event, parents keep asking for it and they're like, why can't we have this during these days or whatnot? So that's what we're working towards. We're working towards creating more of a more, not permanent footprint, but definitely a more regular footprint in some organizations so that it becomes synonymous with the company's culture, with their benefits, for example, just something that is a part of their inclusivity package. So it just helps people be more productive and just be there.Dan: Priya, for our listeners at home here, they can hear more from you. You have a webinar coming up later in the month on November 21st, can you give us a little preview of what that's going to be about?Priya: Yeah, so with the GPMP, we have a webinar coming up later this month on childcare as an inclusivity driver in the workplace. We see that when parents take time off to take care of their children, actually roughly $6 billion hit to the workforce, the American workforce, and unfortunately the majority of that is women. It's about 75% of the women who have left the workplace because of childcare reasons, only about a quarter of them even come back and even those that do take time off of work, there is such a hit to their personal finances but also to the greater economy as well. So we'll be talking about some of that. We'll be also talking about how things like childcare could potentially help drive productivity and inclusivity at work and give some best in class examples of those, not only in Pittsburgh but across the country as well.Dan: That's great. We're looking forward to hearing more about that then. For everybody who is interested in that webinar, we'll be sure to include a link in the show summary and in the Pittsburgh 100 that's going to drop on November 7th, and again that webinar is on November 21st so plenty of time to sign up. If you want to hear more about Flexable, you can find them at flexablecare, all one word, .com and even if you need to hire somebody for some childcare, it's a great place, but Keira and Priya, I really appreciate you guys coming in and just this is a great conversation.Priya: Thanks so much.Dan: Thanks a lot.Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story. WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S story, the reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented storycrafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S story.Dan: All right. Hey everybody. As promised in the introduction here, we've got a pretty special treat for you here and we're bringing a little bit of culture to the 100 today too. We're here with Alexandra Lucian of the Pittsburgh Opera. She's in town for a new show that's just starting this week.Alexandra: Thank you so much for having me.Dan: Yeah, absolutely. It's going to be exciting for you coming back because you're a local, right?Alexandra: I am a local. I'm born and raised in Canonsburg, PA. Went to Chartiers Houston high school and so it's always a joy to come back to my hometown.Dan: Great. Can you tell us a little bit about the show that you're going to be on?Alexandra: Yes. The show that we're doing at Pittsburgh Opera right now is called Florencia en el Amazonas, which translates to Florence on the Amazon. Basically, it is a Spanish language opera, which is the first that Pittsburgh Opera is producing. The piece itself, it's a very unique opera because first of all, it's very short. It's two hours with intermission. So it's kind of the perfect step into opera if you've never checked it out before. The music itself is almost like a Disney movie. It's very cinematic and lush and the setting is in South America, so it sounds very tropical and very accessible and very easy to listen to. It's very beautiful.Alexandra: The story is basically about Florencia, who is a famous opera singer actually and left her hometown of Manaus in Brazil a long time ago to pursue an opera career and 20, I think it's about 20 years or so, and 20 years later she's now coming back because she feels like her life hasn't fully been fulfilled. Part of the reason is because she left her lover behind and his name is Cristóbal, and she wants to come back and find him again and reunite with him.Dan: Right. You're playing the lead role of Florencia, right?Alexandra: Yes.Dan: Okay, that's awesome. One thing that's interesting, and again, I'm pretty inexperienced when it comes to opera, but one thing that I find interesting about it, is it seems like there's always is a mix of fantastical and some grounded maybe romance that's involved. Do you see those big themes in a lot of operas?Alexandra: Absolutely, yes. There's a lot of fairytales in opera, I'd say, and kind of larger than life stories and sometimes stories that don't make a lot of sense. But the cool thing about this piece is that it really ... It was written by a Mexican composer and a Latin American librettist. They really wanted to celebrate their own culture, and a big part of that culture is magical realism, which is basically magic that kind of takes the form of something real. So, we're sitting in the studio, it would be like, if one of us started to levitate in that world, that wouldn't be anything weird because that's what magical realism is.Logan: That's very cool. As a musician myself, I know from a pretty young age, I really wanted to do something in music and I was always very entranced by it. Was that kind of your same experience? Did you always know that you wanted to do something in opera or at least musical or did that come a little later?Alexandra: Yeah, I always sang. I drove my parents nuts actually, because I would sing around the house and I would also sing in church with my dad, and basically they got to the point where they were like, we need to do something with this kid or else she's going to drive us crazy. So I auditioned for what used to be called the Children's Festival Chorus in Pittsburgh and is now the Pittsburgh Youth Chorus. I sang with them for six years, and that was the first spark of really being into classical music and singing. So I did that. I did high school musicals. I did the Junior Mendelssohn choir also. So all of these things, led me in this direction because I started singing in foreign languages from the time I was eight years old.Dan: Oh, wow.Alexandra: I also grew up Greek Orthodox, so we sing in Greek too in church. So I was kind of surrounded with that. So for me, I started to take voice lessons and I realized that I didn't sound like any of the people on the musical theater recordings, I sounded like the opera recordings, so I went to Pittsburgh Opera to check out an opera when I was 15, which was Turandot and I completely fell in love with it, and then almost 20 years later, I sang Turandot here two years ago. So yeah, it's been a cool journey.Dan: Well, something about that journey then, in my thinking, I would just assume that, a singer stays with the same company for a while or you're contracted or something. But looking at your history here, you've been all over. That's Minnesota, Chicago, Canada, New Orleans, pretty much anywhere and everywhere. This has got to be like ... It's quite the career I imagine, it takes you a lots of cool places.Alexandra: Yeah, opera is very unique in that way, in this country in particular. In Europe it's a little different, but here we are freelancers and basically we have managers mostly, but we're kind of our own entity. So this year I'm in Minnesota, here, Palm Beach, Chicago twice and then Austin, so yeah, you just kind of bop around and you get used to traveling and meeting new people every time, new cast, new company, and then sometimes you get to come back to old favorites, like here.Dan: Right. Is it exciting to come back to Pittsburgh then? Do you get a lot of friends and family in the crowd?Alexandra: Oh yeah. It's really great. I have a really supportive community. I'm very lucky and Pittsburgh Opera also has been very generous in working with me, in bringing in my community, which is the Greek community here. Last time for Turandot and this time they are doing a Greek night for all of the Greeks in the area, they're-Dan: Quite few.Alexandra: Yes, exactly. There's some ticket discounts for opening night and some backstage tours and things like that.Dan: Someone who isn't familiar with opera like myself, probably other people in this office and it's something that sometimes it might feel like it's inaccessible, like in my head I say, well I don't know these languages, but ... Why would you recommend someone who hasn't experienced it to just try it out, get to a show?Alexandra: Yeah. I think that first of all, you'll never be lost in the story, because there's always English super titles that are projected above the stage. That's first and foremost. So you were not just going to go in and hear the story and be like, what the heck are they saying? Because you'll know. We try to also provide synopsises and stuff, but the super titles are a huge help. I also think that in our digital age, we hear a lot of music through our computers and through our phones, but the cool thing about opera I think is that, it's like music in its purest form. We don't use any microphones, and that is something that's really cool. We're singing, like the opera I just did was a 90-piece orchestra and I did not use a microphone in a 2,500 seat hall.Alexandra: That's what we're trained to do and it's pretty cool to hear the raw human voice singing like that in a big space. The Benedum's almost 3,000 seats and it's kind of a way to bring all of the pieces together of lots of different art forms. So you've got singing, you've got instruments, you've got set design. This one has projections, so there's kind of like a movie going on behind the sets. There's costuming. So there's something for everybody, which I think is really neat. If you're into seeing interesting costumes, you can check that out. If you're into singing, you can check that out. If you're into the symphony, you can check that out. So it's kind of something for everyone.Dan: One thing that we'd be remiss to not point out here is that these shows are coming up here, going to be on November 9th, 12th, 15th and 17th you can still grab tickets at pittsburghopera.org. They're all going to be at the Benedum Center, which is an awesome venue, I imagine a lot of people have been there, but if you haven't, it's really great to see, and do you enjoy playing there as well?Alexandra: Oh yeah. It's so beautiful. It's one of the most beautiful venues in the city I think, and there's so much of our history as Pittsburghers in that venue, thinking of it as like a movie house back in years and years and years ago and then a performing venue. It's really amazing, and when you think about all of the different shows that have been on that stage, it's really cool to be able to share the stage with that kind of history.Dan: Alexandra, last thing we're going to ask you, can you hit a note for us?Alexandra: Sure. Okay. Let's see. (singing)Dan: I don't think we can end this segment any better than that. Alexandra, thanks for being here, and everybody try to get to the opera. At some point here for Florencia en el Amazonas or they've got a lot of great shows coming up in 2020 too, so thank you again Alexandra.Alexandra: Thank you guys so much.Dan: OK guys, we have another important holiday coming up here. Within the next week we'll be at Veterans Day, which is the day that obviously, we celebrate all our servicemen and women about, just the people who are serving and making big sacrifices for us here. Unlike Memorial Day, which is another important one, I think Veterans Day is an important one because it's about the living too.Paul: That’s right Dan, absolutely.Dan: Yes, and Paul, you just had an interesting experience though. You were over in the UK and you had a chance to really learn about how people over in Europe feel about our veterans.Paul: That’s right. I think this is really an important way to look at Veterans Day, Dan, because, given the geography of the United States, with the exception of the terrible 9/11 attack, we've never really been invaded or bombarded in the way that Europe was during the Second World War. Those events are fading further and further into history. We're coming up next year on the 75th anniversary of the end of that war, so it was surprising to me, as you mentioned, a group of about 40 of us from the States went over to my dad's old airbase and my dad was in the Eighth Air Force. He was a bombardier navigator, and of this group of 40 there were three veterans, each one of them, 96 years old. Two of them brought their significant others who were also not spring chickens, and then the rest of us were mostly kids of World War II veterans or in some cases grandkids.Paul: We had a few who were nephews and nieces as well. It was a very interesting group. So 75 years ago, 1944, was a time period when my dad's airbase was really up and running and my dad was actually there. I think that different perspective, and I did one article about this, I'll probably do another one in the 100, we went to the cemetery at Mattingly, which is the only cemetery in the UK that has American war dead from World War II, and there's 3,800 graves there and there's another 5,000 memorialized who are still missing 75 years after the end of the war. As you said, really Veterans Day is more about the living. Memorial Day is about those who lost their lives defending the country.Paul: The thing that was really interesting to me, Dan, about this whole trip was the way people overseas view what we as Americans did through our military service. There was a group of people, and I don't mean people who are like our veterans in their '90s, I mean people in their '50s, '60s, '40s, '30s, teenagers, that we met, who care about what happened 75 years ago. And the reason is, as one of the people said to me when he kept profusely thanking me for my dad's service, he said, "No, you don't understand. If your dad and his fellows didn't do what they did, we'd all be speaking German."Dan: To those three men you were there with, right?Paul: That's right. So I came away with this experience of understanding that, it's not just another day to put the flag up out front, it's not just another day when the post office is closed or governments or whatever are not at work. It's a day to celebrate what Americans can do in service of our country and also in service of democracy around the world.Paul: One of the other things I learned, there's a cemetery as well in Holland, there's a four year waiting list for volunteer families, guys, to take care of American servicemen's graves. Again, these ain't people who are 90 years old, we're talking about, families with teenagers, et cetera, et cetera. As we approach this Veterans Day, I think it's a very important perspective to understand that the service of our veterans, it's not just an American thing, it's something that extends far beyond our borders.Dan: That's awesome. That's great to hear. Again, talking about, you can help memorialize our war dead, which is fantastic, but again, Veterans Day and pretty much any day of the year is a day to support and recognize our current veterans. I've got two of my best friends, two friends who were in my wedding are veterans who served over in the Middle East, and I respect the hell out of them for being able to do that. I know for a fact that each of them saw things that I can't even imagine. That's going to have effects on them for the rest of their lives, and so it's important, whether you can find some support online, whether you can maybe donate to causes for veterans or just, hey, pat someone on the back and every now and then give them a call and make sure that they're feeling all right. That's important stuff. I can't say that I served, but what I can do is I can support my friends who did and try to do what you can to make these people recognized, let them know that we care about their sacrifice.Paul: And really, that's kind of, Logan, what I would say to people this time around and certainly, Logan, people in your generation are the people who are overseas right now, doing multiple tours. Again, more than the flag, more than the day off, is doing something to say thank you to veterans.Logan: Yeah, I totally agree. As you said, there's a couple of people I know that are deployed right now overseas. My dad's also a 10-year veteran of the air force. So I completely agree and I think it's very important to recognize both the Memorial and Veterans Day and as you guys both said, just do what you can to support and let them know that we do appreciate all the things that they've done for our country and that things might be very different if they weren't all there, similar to the story that, that gentlemen over in the UK told you. They do a lot of things for us that sometimes go, it can be out of sight, out of mind, because we don't always see them, obviously they're not fighting here on the homeland, but yeah, I think it's very important to recognize and to appreciate them for Veterans Day and every day.Dan: Right. Yeah. So we are very thankful to them, and to be a little tiny bit selfish, I would also say that Veterans Day is my birthday.Paul: Dan, I knew that that was why we really were talking about this day.Dan: It's awkward to bring up because if I'm at a restaurant or something, and they get free entrees, I can't ask for the free dessert or else then I'm just a jerk.Paul: Well, Dan, happy birthday. We'll buy you some ice cream and let's remember our veterans on Veterans Day.Logan: And we are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe to p100podcast.com or wherever you listen to podcasts and follow us on Twitter @pittsburgh100_, for all the latest news, updates and more from the Pittsburgh 100. 

 As Pittsburgh prepares to mark one year since the attack on the Tree of Life synagogue, we invited Maggie Feinstein of the 10.27 Healing Partnership to discuss the new center’s mission and how Squirrel Hill has healed over time.Also in this episode, we talk about fear-based marketing, future modes of journalism with a guest who has a special connection to the podcast, and hear a track from a promising singer from Sewickley.----more----This Episode is sponsored by WordWriteCenturies before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story.WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S Story.The full transcript to this episode is here:Logan: You are listening to The P100 Podcast, the biweekly companion piece to The Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news, culture, and more. Because sometimes 100 words just isn't enough for a great story.Dan: Hey, everyone. We're back. I'm Dan Stefano, host of The P100 Podcast. I'm here with Paul Furiga.Paul: Dan, how are you, my friend?Dan: And our other co-host, Logan Armstrong.Logan: How's it going, Dan?Dan: All right. Yeah, great to have you guys here, and we're happy for everybody to be listening today because it's a special episode. We're coming up to the one-year commemoration of the attack on the Tree of Life Synagogue in our Squirrel Hill neighborhood here. And there's a lot of interesting things going on this time of year. It's been a year of healing, and that's a highlight of the interview we're going to have this week. We're pretty happy to have that. Paul, what are your thoughts?Paul: I'm really looking forward to hearing from Maggie Feinstein, who's now leading the healing center. As you said, this one-year mark is really important for the community. Not just here in Pittsburgh, but beyond as well.Dan: That's right. That's Maggie Feinstein, the director of the 10.27 Healing Partnership and we're really happy to have her today. Also, we'll be talking with Erin Hogan. She's a fellow WordWriter and we'll be talking about fear-based PSA. It's kind of based on a blog she recently wrote. After that, we'll hear from Chris Schroder, the founder of The 100 Companies.Paul: The 100 Companies, right.Dan: Paul, you've met him. You have a pretty deep professional relationship.Paul: We do. And I think folks will enjoy the interview, three ex-journalists sitting around the table commiserating about journalism's past and talking about the future.Dan: Right? Yeah. That's always a lot of fun. And then we'll follow up with a Pittsburgh polyphony and Logan, you have somebody pretty exciting we're going to be talking to, correct?Logan: Yes, I do. We're going to be talking about a young neo soul artist coming out of the city. So I'm excited to talk about that.Dan: Right, yeah we're going to be really happy to hear from, well, we're not going to hear from her I guess, but we'll hear from her in her recording from one of her singles and we're really happy to hear that, and let's get to it.Dan: Okay, everybody. As we mentioned in the introduction, we are nearing the one year mark of the attack on the Tree of Life Synagogue. With us is Maggie Feinstein. She's the director of the newly named 10.27 Healing Partnership. 10.27 that being a reference to the date of the attack in which 11 worshipers were killed on a Saturday morning going to synagogue. It was an act of hate, but our city has responded with a lot of acts of love, including programs like this. So thank you for taking the time to be with us here Maggie.Maggie: Thanks for having me here.Dan: Absolutely. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and what you do with the healing center?Maggie: Absolutely. Thank you very much. My background is as a mental health clinician. I'm an LPC, a master's level clinician, and for the last 10 years or so, my work has really been around what we call brief interventions, working with medical doctors and working in medical environments and providing support to the doctors as well as to the patients when they come in for visits.Dan: Are you from Pittsburgh?Maggie: I'm from Pittsburgh. I grew up in Squirrel Hill. Yes.Dan: Oh wow.Maggie: I still live there and I'm currently raising my kids there.Dan: Being from there, can you tell us what that morning was like that Saturday?Maggie: Absolutely. I think that being from there – it is a very familiar place and it is actually somewhere where I've walked all those streets for many, many years. But that morning I was out for a run with a friend and usually we run through the park, but that morning because it was raining, we had run up and we weren't really paying attention. We ended up on Wilkins and we were running up Wilkins and remarked, Oh my gosh, we keep seeing people we know because that's sort of Squirrel Hill for you, people travel the same routes. And so people kept waving out the windows. So it was a morning unfortunately that I found myself outside of there, but was just about 20 minutes earlier and I was reminded of community really, which is what growing up in Squirrel Hill feels like, that it was hard to run down the street without having to stop and talk to lots of people. Which is a wonderful thing, though on that morning it did feel a little bit scary.Dan: That was an incredible day for all the wrong reasons. Can you tell us a little bit about the healing center then? When we talked previously, you'd mentioned being part of that community and now it's going to be a pretty integral piece I think.Maggie: So being from the neighborhood, it was this opportunity to try and serve the community that's been so great to me. And so after the shooting happened on October 27 there was a lot of amazing community activity going on, which I wasn't part of, but I'm really inspired by the community partners that stepped up to the plate. In Pittsburgh we have had such wonderful cooperation between the congregations, the nonprofits like the Jewish Community Center, Jewish Family and Community Services and the Jewish Federation. And so between the synagogues, those three major institutions as well as the Center for Victims, which is always ready and able to respond to community mental health needs, there was just this really amazing partnership that happened and then being able to eventually incorporate the voices of the victims and the survivors.Maggie: They all together created the 10.27 Healing Partnership. So I'm the director of it, but the truth was that it was the efforts that happened week in, week out afterwards of people really caring and people wanting to have their voices heard when it comes to what community recovery looks like since it was a community trauma.Dan: Right. And there is a level of a federal involvement with this?Maggie: Yes. And so immediately in the aftermath the federal government came, FBI, as well as the Office of Victims of Crime have offered a ton of support. They have people who were able to come in, help our community, help that group of people who were gathering to decide what to do next, help guide them through the process of creating what is generically known as a resiliency center. And those federal groups really were able to give perspective on how do we move forward, how do we gather, how do we anticipate what the community needs might look like, and then respond to those needs.Dan: Right.Logan: And so the, the healing centers recently opened, it opened on October 1st, correct?Maggie: It opened on October 2nd, yes.Logan: October 2nd, okay. And so it's been opened recently. Have you had a chance to gauge how they're responding to it now that it's open?Maggie: I think that opening our doors was a really awesome opportunity because what we say when people are feeling this sense of loss is that there's no wrong door and that the more doors that are open to people, the better. But I also think that before we opened our doors on October 2nd, a lot of people were accessing services through the Center for Victims or through JFCS. And so what we have seen in the last two weeks is that a lot of people are saying this is a relief to know this is here. It's good to know there's a door.Maggie: It doesn't mean that people were sitting and waiting to go just there because there are other places. But what a lot of people say is that I do have a therapist or I've been part of a support group and then there's just some days that feel really hard. And so knowing that I could come in here on those days that just feel hard to be with people, to gather, to maybe get some emotional support or maybe to practice some self-guided relaxation. People are saying, Oh that's really nice to know that's there.Logan: And going off that, I read that you guys actually have someone that will come to greet you when you get there and as you said, some days you're just feeling vulnerable or sad. How do you feel the importance of that is, just kind of having someone there to greet you and bring you in when you're going to the healing center?Maggie: I think it's so important. I think, I mean one functionally for the JCC, for people who are not members of the JCC, because that's where we are housed, we're using space within the JCC. For people who aren't members, it's helpful because they don't know their way around. But more importantly as humans it's nice to connect to people. And one of the things we know is that with trauma we kind of disconnect, we pull away. And so I think the earlier that people can connect and feel like somebody cares and feel like they're not alone, the better it is. And so the greeter role is a really important one where someone can come to the door and walk you up, make sure you have what you need and make sure you're comfortable.Dan: What do you see as a therapist, say the difference between an individual trauma and then traumas that might affect an entire community? I mean, there might be a guy who just works down the street who really, maybe he's not a Jewish person, but this tragedy, I mean, could greatly affect them.Maggie: Absolutely. And I think that's a really important point. And I think it's a good question because I've thought a lot about what is different than when something terrible happens to me and something terrible happens to the bigger community. And I think that there is a challenge because there are so many levels of grieving that can happen when there's a tragedy within the community and all of those different levels of grieving mean that people are hitting it at different moments and people are feeling different things. And so there's sort of these waves, but people aren't necessarily on the same wave as other people. And so that's one of the reasons that the federal government has thought through this, thought of having these resiliency centers and in Pittsburgh our resiliency center is the 10.27 Healing Partnership.Maggie: But to have these resiliency centers was thought out by Congress a long time ago after 9/11 when they realized that as communities continue to experience the losses that happened during a communal trauma, that it's very, the needs change and the needs need to be attended to. We have to keep ourselves aware of them. And one of the things that I would say is that the needs will evolve over time, that just like grief and like other experiences, that because it's a communal trauma, we want to evolve with the community's needs. We don't stay stuck. So the space that we created is meant to be as flexible as possible, but equally the services will be driven primarily by the people who come in and desire them. And the hope with that is that we can respond to what people are looking for rather than what I, with my mental health degree, believe people might be looking for because that's a lot less important than what it is that people are seeking.Dan: Maybe stepping outside of your professional role and just thinking of yourself as a Squirrel Hill resident. After this last year here, what do you see from the community and how do you see that either it has changed, good, bad, where people, where their heads might be and just where people are, how it feels there right now.Maggie: I think that this a high holiday season, Yom Kippur that just passed felt very different for most people. And I think that like most other grieving emotions, there's good and bad, they're complicated, they don't feel just one way. And the good part, I heard a lot of people say how relieving it was to go to synagogue this year and be around old friends, people that we haven't seen for a while and to feel that sense of connectedness. Like I was saying, that's one of the more important things. But for a number of the congregations there was also a sense of being displaced or the absence of the people who had been such wonderful community leaders in their congregations. And so I think that there is a lot of complicated emotions.Maggie: There's a lot of new relationships. There's also deepening of old relationships that are beautiful and wonderful to see and that people have connected not just within the Squirrel Hill community but within Greater Pittsburgh, like you were saying, there's a lot of people who've been affected from outside of Squirrel Hill of course, and a lot of them have come in to reconnect with old friends, to reconnect with community.Maggie: And so those are the moments that feel, we call that the mental health side, we call that the post traumatic growth. Those are opportunities where when something has been broken, there can be a new growth that comes out of it. But that at the same time there's just a big sense of loss. Like I was saying earlier with my morning that day when I came through Wilkins and it's just a small street, anybody from another city wouldn't consider it a major thoroughfare. But it is really hard to have the feeling of the change of the neighborhood with that building currently not being able to be occupied.Dan: What can you tell us with October 27th coming up here, what types of activities or events are going to be going on either at the center or just within the community?Maggie: There has been an effort by that same group of people that I'd mentioned earlier who helped to create the 10.27 Healing Partnership to create community events that happened on 10.27 this year, 10 27 2019. And that was something we learned from other communities was that it had to be owned by the community. And that there has to be something for people to do because there's often a lot of times where we have energy we want to give. So together that group's come up with the motto for the day is remember, repair, together. And those are lessons we've learned from other places. So there'll be community service, there's community service throughout the city. There's ways that people can sign up for slots, but there's also an encouragement that communities can gather on their own and create their own community service. It doesn't just have to be through organized community service.Maggie: And then also there'll be Torah study, which is really important in the Jewish tradition in terms of honoring people after death. And so the Torah study will be happening and there is a communal gathering at Soldiers and Sailors in the evening and throughout the day there'll be activities going on at the 10.27 Healing Partnership at the JCC, we'll be having for people who just don't really know what else they want to do that day. They're welcome to come and gather in community, sit together. The Highmark Caring Place will be there doing activities that are really geared towards being present with ourselves, being able to honor lives that were lost and also being able to support each other in this hard time.Dan: Right. And I'm not sure if we mentioned it earlier, but the Healing Partnership that's located, is that on Murray Avenue at the JCC?Maggie: Yeah, so the JCC sits at Forbes and Murray and Darlington.Dan: Okay, right.Maggie: It takes over that whole block. But yeah, so in Squirrel Hill, Forbes and Murray, and there will not be regularly scheduled activities that Sunday at the JCC. And the only real purpose for coming there will be people who want to gather in community. There won't be exercising or basketball or any of those other things that day.Dan: Right. Where can we find you online?Maggie: So the address is www.1027healingpartnership.org. And on the website we really tried to promote a lot of ways that people can do their own learning, exploration. Even some things that we can do on our own with apps and podcasts and things that people can do at home.Dan: Well Maggie, thank you so much for coming here and thank you so much for what you do in the community. We really appreciate you being here today.Maggie: Thank you so much for having me and thank you for highlighting the important things going on in Pittsburgh.Dan: Absolutely.Dan: All right, we're here with Erin Hogan, she's an account supervisor here at Word Write. And we wanted to talk with Erin here about one of her blogs that she just wrote for our storytellers blog. The title is fear based marketing campaigns are not always the right approach. A really interesting topic. It kind of sparked out of a conversation that we were having in the office and Erin, thanks for being with us and can you tell us a little bit about the blog?Erin: Yeah, thanks for having me. So really, this stemmed from a conversation I actually had with my husband. He sent me this video and asked for my opinion on it. I was, just had to be honest that I really didn't like it.Dan: Okay...Erin: I think it's from a-Dan: You didn't like the video. What's the video?Erin: So the Sandy Hook Promise PSA. It's basically this really dark play on a back to school supplies commercial. So it starts out with kids showing their folders and their backpacks and their skateboard and just general things that people and parents purchase their kids to go to school for the new year. And then it just starts to take a turn. You kind of see some shuffling happening in the background, and you start to notice that there's something happening at this school.Dan: There's an active shooter.Erin: There's an active shooter. And that's really what the video is supposed to get across, supposed to. The goal of this campaign is to show people, it's to encourage knowing the signs of gun violence before they happen. But the thing that really got me going with this video is that you're encouraging to know the signs about gun violence before they happen, when depicting an act of gun violence. That just seems to me counterintuitive to what they're trying to convey. Just in general, the whole concept of my blog, getting back to the point of this segment is fear based approach versus a positive tone of an ad. How do you, what's the best way to tell a story? I mean we're at WordWrite all about storytelling, finding the best way to tell a business story. But even in a general cause related marketing effort, what's the best way to tell a story?Dan: In advocacy, right.Erin: Right. And based on the evidence that I've found in the research, it really doesn't work. So sure everybody remembers the anti-drug PSAs in the ‘80s and ‘90s and 2000 that were funded by the Partnership for a Drug Free America. There was the your brain on drugs. That one was a big, everybody remembers that one. It was the guy in the kitchen saying this is your brain and he shows an egg. And then he hits it into a cast iron pan and says, this is your brain on drugs. And it's supposed to say your brain's fried on drugs. And basically over the years they had a bunch of variations, that it was basically saying if you do drugs, your parents won't approve. Well when was the last time a 14, 15 year old kid listened to what their parents do.Erin: They didn't work and in fact it caused the adverse effect. It encouraged kids to think that drugs were cool. There was something, it was the anti, going against my parents. Whereas they took a shift, a more encouraging shift in the mid 2000s, many of the younger generations will remember this, the above the influence campaigns. Which basically, instead of showing imagery of kids defying their parents and the consequences of their actions, it took a more positive tone, basically showing the positive ramifications of making an informed decision on their own and having the independence and the courage to say no without any oversight from their parents. Those actually performed far better.Erin: So it begs the question to me for a PSA like the Sandy Hook Promise PSA. Would it have had a more resounding impact or a better impact on the viewers if it showed the positives of stopping gun violence versus the negatives of what happens after gun violence occurs?Dan: One thing I think that's important that we'd be remiss if we didn't add here is that the ad itself within, I think a couple of days of it, I think had actually earned millions of dollars or a great sum for Sandy Hook Promise. So for that group, so-Erin: Donated ad spend.Dan: Donated ad, yeah there we go.Erin: Or ad, media placements.Dan: This is why we have Erin on because she can say the right words.Erin: I'm here all night.Dan: Exactly, this is going to be one of two hours now with Erin. No, but it did have an impact. It did, it did, it was successful. And I think something important right now that we have to think of is, do we have to be provocative today? Is that how you get people's attention or is there a way to balance that? Logan, you want to jump in?Logan: Yeah, sure. I think also this is just a microcosm of society at large where we've become less of, even in the media where 20 years ago it counted on who was reporting the right news at the right time and now it's become who's reporting it first, whether or not they have to issue corrections later or not. And so I think in that same kind of click-baity kind of way that that society on, especially on the internet has become, I think that this PSA may have fallen victim to that. And as you said, whether or not that was the right move is kind of debatable, but I think this is a small part of a society's directional move at large.Erin: Yeah, I mean certainly you have to cut through the clutter. No one would dismiss that. Especially any talented marketer. I'm also not insinuating or advocating for doing nothing. Doing nothing is never an answer either-Dan: Right.Erin: They certainly have an admirable cause that they're going after here. And obviously the genesis of the Sandy Hook Promise Organization, it comes out of, it was birthed from a really horrible, horrible tragedy in United States history. But in terms of the approach and just looking at it from a technical messaging standpoint that we as marketers do, I'm just not sure it fully executed what it’s intention initially was.Dan: All right. Well Erin, you definitely gave us a lot to think about here. We thank you for coming on and I think for sure we'll be seeing, as long as we have television, as long as we have advertising, we're going to see similar ads like this, so we'll be sure to keep our eyes on it and follow those trends. So thanks a lot.Erin: Yeah, thanks for having me. Bye guys.Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared, the stories have shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story. WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own capital S story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your capital S story.Paul: We mark an anniversary with this episode of the P100 podcast, the audio companion to the Pittsburgh 100, and that is the second anniversary of the Pittsburgh 100 e-zine. Our podcast is a little bit younger here but we're pleased to have with us in the studio for this segment, Chris Schroder, who is the founder of The 100 Companies. Say hello there Chris.Chris: Good morning Pittsburgh.Paul: The Pittsburgh 100 and this podcast are one of more than 20 affiliated publications in The 100 Companies network. Chris is in town for a few days, visiting, working with us on a few things. So we thought it'd be a great opportunity to give the listeners a little bit of background on why we do the 100, why we do this podcast. And since Dan and I are both former journalists and so is Chris, to have one of those, “didn't journalism used to be great and now where the hell is it going”, sort of a conversation.Dan: Was it ever great?Paul: Dan, your experience might be different than mine.Dan: I wasn't in the Woodward Bernstein era, so I don't know.Paul: I had a tee shirt when I got into journalism, which was during that era. The tee-shirt said "If your mother loves you, if your mother says she loves you, check it out".Chris: Trust, but verify.Paul: That's right. That's right. So Chris, tell us a little bit about your background.Chris: My blood is full of ink. I was a high school newspaper editor, college newspaper editor, came up in the Watergate era, graduated from high school when Nixon was resigning and then worked for six daily newspapers, and then started my own neighborhood newspapers in Atlanta. And we built that up to about a hundred thousand circulation, had about three different titles. About 10 years ago I started working with some journalists in the Atlanta area who worked for the daily newspaper and they were unfortunately being downsized out of the daily paper.Paul: A common refrain.Chris: Yes, and so they, I helped them start a publication there that had a newsletter, website and social media platform. So I helped them start that. I'd developed a revenue model for them. It's doing great 10 years later. But I noticed three or four years in that people were not clicking on the read more link in the stories as much as they used to in the newsletter. They were seeming to be fine with a shorter excerpt. So I tried to come up with a newsletter where you did not have to click through, where everything was contained in the newsletter itself and so we started designing that, realized that might be about a hundred words. So we said, why don't we call it the Atlanta 100, every article be exactly 100 words, every video be exactly a hundred seconds. And we went to market, people really enjoyed it.Chris: And later I talked to a conference of PR owners, about 150 owners in the room, and was telling them the history of content marketing all the way through the rise of newspapers and the fall of newspapers and ended with a journalism project on the Atlanta 100. And at the end of it, 12 owners came up and gave me their business cards and said I'd like to start a 100 in my city. So that thus began the expansion into a network of The 100 Companies.Paul: So Chris, something that Dan and I get a question about quite often, and really Dan is the editorial director here, having come to us directly from journalism. Where do the 100 publications and podcasts like this sit on the journalistic scale? I mean we joked about Woodward and Bernstein, obviously we're not an investigative journalism enterprise. How would you describe what we do?Chris: Well, we are part of what I see as the new emerging marketplace in media where we've had a sort of disassembling over the last few years of the traditional media marketplace. So 1,800 newspapers have closed in the last 18 years. Tens of thousands of journalists have been let go to be put into other jobs or find other careers. We've had a lot of changes, a lot of new emerging media coming up digitally. There's a lot of interest of course in the last 20 years in social media, but now we're finding the problems in that with Facebook and other issues of privacy.Chris: So I think what we are is a part of the solution and part of the experimentation that we will in another five years start to see a lot of clarity as people start to organize and merge. And there will be some platforms that emerge and some that fall away as we're seeing now with the larger level of some of the streaming, a lot of organization going on with HBO and AT&T and Comcast and different people trying to organize who's going to win. There'll probably be three or four winners in the streaming of video. Disney's getting into it, so many other people are. But there's going to be a consolidation there. Eventually, there'll be a consolidation of, as there was in the beginning of traditional newspapers in America in the 1700s, there will be eventually a settling of the industry and we certainly expect the 100 platform to be one of the winners.Paul: So gentlemen, last question, biggest question. What is the future of journalism?Dan: Well, if I could jump into it first here. Obviously the 100 gives us again, just a small little piece of the media landscape here in Pittsburgh. We're not going to be, we're never going to be the PG. We're not that. And it's not what we're trying to be. But I see a lot of former journalists in Pittsburgh that have found websites that maybe five, 10 years ago people would've considered blogs and blogs maybe had a stigma compared to them. But now we're seeing really sharp good people with news sense.Paul: Yes.Dan: They understand what is newsworthy.Paul: Storytellers.Dan: They're good writers, they're storytellers and they're finding these outlets that people are starting to gravitate to. Not long ago we had Rossliynne Culgan of The Incline on. They're doing a lot of great work there. Between say Next Pittsburgh, we see good stuff from out of them. There are a lot of good small outlets that journalists are flocking to after they either lose their job or they just realize that, I hate it, there's not much of a route forward in the newspapers. So there's always going to be room for people that know how to write, I feel like.Paul: Yes. And tell stories and write information. Chris.Chris: I think storytelling is very primal. That's how we all learned to hear, store and retrieve information as children. And it goes back millennia, the storytelling tradition. So I think it's very important to do it in as few as a hundred words or as many as 10,000 words. I'd like to look at journalism on a continuum and I think what's going to happen, I like to think that it's all sort of a pendulum. And that while in the last five to 10 years, our attention spans have gotten much shorter, I think we're poised and ready for what I think might be one day a pendulum swing by a future generation who, attention spans will start to push to be much longer and they'll appreciate the longer read and the longer write. And I think that could happen. Right now we're still in the throws of people just getting very short morsels of information. Twitter did expand from 140 to 280 characters, but I think we're going to see two or three years from now, people start to settle in and realize that morsels are good, but it still leaves them hungry.Paul: Well, Chris, really appreciate the perspective. Thanks for being here in Pittsburgh and joining us for this segment on the podcast today. We will have to have you back at some time in the future and see how some of your predictions and Dan's have meted out.Chris: Well, you all are doing great work. You're one of the leaders of our national network, and so thank you for the work you're doing and the innovations you're doing with this podcast and other things. Keep up the great work.Paul: Thank you, Chris.Dan: Thanks, Chris.Dan: Okay, we're back for another edition of our Pittsburgh polyphony series here and really enjoy this one because we get a chance to learn about some new artists that are doing some great things in the region here and Logan, this is a pretty new, interesting artist that we want to talk about here and can take us to introduction.Logan: So we're going to be talking about Sierra Sellers today. Neo soul, RMB, jazz artist in the Pittsburgh region and she's been putting out some tracks, but she's really seen some recognition in the recent past and I had the opportunity to see her at Club Cafe about a month ago and she just really brings a lot of great energy to the room. She has a great voice and her and her band really interact well and she just brings a lot of positive vibes to the audience.Dan: Yeah, that's one thing I think, you talk about the energy here and that's an important part of a performer here. As a guy, as an artist yourself, what do you think that offers whenever somebody can kind of control a crowd?Logan: Oh, it's invaluable. I mean it's the same as any other kind of entertainer, whether you're a comedian or anything else up on stage. And being a performer versus doing a performance is the difference between getting up on stage and singing or rapping or whatever you're doing, all your songs or giving an actual performance and putting on a show to the audience. So, one is vastly more memorable and more connective than the other. And being able to do that on stage is something that, if you want to be a successful artist, you're going to have to learn how to do.Dan: When you talk about Sierra, what exactly is it that she uniquely brings to the stage?Logan: Yes. So initially it's just herself. She just has kind of a bubbly personality, but she also gets the crowd to interact and she tells some stories from inspiration behind the songs or inspiration behind the instrumental or the production and talks with the band and just really kind of gets a feel for the audience and kind of feels them out and is able to work the crowd.Dan: That's awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about the track we're about to hear?Logan: Yes. So we're about to hear a track of Sierra's called Shine. It's a recent track, the leader on Spotify's playlist. They have a set of astrological sign playlists, with a pretty prominent following, and this landed her on Spotify as Libra playlist. It's collaboration with fellow Pittsburgh rapper who goes by My Favorite Color, which is a great name. But yeah, we're going to lead you out with Shine by Sierra Sellers. A nice vibey track. Great for just a chill day. Just a little mood booster. So hope you enjoy. 

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Paul: Hi, this is Paul from England speaking with Katia from Mexico. First question is do you give money to charity?Katia: Well, Paul, it's a difficult question because you really want to help people, but I always question myself where if the money really gets to where it's supposed to go, so personally I rarely do give money to charities. I'd rather give my time, so I know if it's actually something happening. What about you?Paul: Yeah, I guess that makes sense. If it's a registered charity then I don't see there's a problem really with giving a donation.Katia: Yeah, I guess so, but really I wonder. There are so many charities in the world, and you wonder really how much money do the people actually get, so it's difficult to really know.Paul: How about if you're walking down the street and you see a homeless person asking for money?Katia: Homeless people! That's also difficult because you can see they need money or they need food. Sometimes I feel if you give money, you are supporting their way of life so I would rather give some food so they can eat, but maybe if it's a disabled person, I am more willing to give, rather than just the homeless.Paul: Yeah, I'd agree with you. It's difficult to know what they're gonna use the money for, so usually I never give money to men but if it's like an elderly woman, I'm happy to give a small donation.Katia: Why not men and only women?Paul: Well, going back to what you said about supporting their way of life, I mean, not in every case, but I think that often it can just be man's choice to be homeless on the street and he does have a chance to get a job I think.Katia: So you think the woman really doesn't have a choice, and the man...Paul: I think it's more difficult for a woman.Katia: Possibly. Possibly. That's a difficult question.Paul: For sure. Do you give money if you see children on the street?Katia: Well, it depends, because that's also giving money to children so they can continue asking for money, so I avoid it. I also avoid it. What about you?Paul: I'm a little bit reluctant to give money. I heard in a lot of poor countries that it can actually even be a business, like parents will send their children onto the street.Katia: Unfortunately, that's true.Paul: OK, so maybe you like what you said before: it's better to donate your time than to donate money.Katia: Possibly. And hopefully things will change.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Paul: Hi, this is Paul from England speaking with Katia from Mexico. First question is do you give money to charity?Katia: Well, Paul, it's a difficult question because you really want to help people, but I always question myself where if the money really gets to where it's supposed to go, so personally I rarely do give money to charities. I'd rather give my time, so I know if it's actually something happening. What about you?Paul: Yeah, I guess that makes sense. If it's a registered charity then I don't see there's a problem really with giving a donation.Katia: Yeah, I guess so, but really I wonder. There are so many charities in the world, and you wonder really how much money do the people actually get, so it's difficult to really know.Paul: How about if you're walking down the street and you see a homeless person asking for money?Katia: Homeless people! That's also difficult because you can see they need money or they need food. Sometimes I feel if you give money, you are supporting their way of life so I would rather give some food so they can eat, but maybe if it's a disabled person, I am more willing to give, rather than just the homeless.Paul: Yeah, I'd agree with you. It's difficult to know what they're gonna use the money for, so usually I never give money to men but if it's like an elderly woman, I'm happy to give a small donation.Katia: Why not men and only women?Paul: Well, going back to what you said about supporting their way of life, I mean, not in every case, but I think that often it can just be man's choice to be homeless on the street and he does have a chance to get a job I think.Katia: So you think the woman really doesn't have a choice, and the man...Paul: I think it's more difficult for a woman.Katia: Possibly. Possibly. That's a difficult question.Paul: For sure. Do you give money if you see children on the street?Katia: Well, it depends, because that's also giving money to children so they can continue asking for money, so I avoid it. I also avoid it. What about you?Paul: I'm a little bit reluctant to give money. I heard in a lot of poor countries that it can actually even be a business, like parents will send their children onto the street.Katia: Unfortunately, that's true.Paul: OK, so maybe you like what you said before: it's better to donate your time than to donate money.Katia: Possibly. And hopefully things will change.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Katia: Hello, everyone, this is Katia from Mexico and we are here with Paul from England, and today we're gonna have a very interesting conversation about men. What's difficult about being a man and what are the good things about being a man, so we have the right candidate for this. Paul, what are the bad things about being a man?Paul: What's difficult about being a man? Well, I think... the hardest thing I think is working. The man is under a lot of pressure to go to work and to earn money for the family.Katia: But I thought men like to work.Paul: Yeah, men do like to work of course. Like most men want to have a career but along with the work, there's a lot of pressure. They have pressure from their wife, from their kids, from their family, from the bank manager.Katia: Yeah, I guess so. That can be stressful. What else? What else are one of the bad thing of being a man?Paul: Well, I guess, if a man's... has a good job or a job that's taking up a lot of his time, this can sometimes lead to problems with his relationship, especially with his his kids, I think. For example, if the kids are spending a lot of time with their mother, usually they form a closer relationship with their mom, so the father, I think, misses out on his kids growing up sometimes.Katia: Yeah, that is true and now I can that clearly unfortunately it seems that it's a lot of bad things with the job, but I am sure they're very good things about being a man.Paul: For sure, there are a lot of advantages I think. For example, appearance. I think, for a man, he doesn't really... when he's not working, he doesn't really need to worry about his appearance. He can wear whatever clothes he wants to wear. He doesn't brush is hair or he can wear scruffy shoes for example.Katia: Mmm, are you sure about that one?Paul: Would you disagree? Yeah, I think usually that appearance is not so important for a man.Katia: Possibly.I guess women spend more time in appearances but there must be more things than this about good things about being a man.Paul: Good things? I think men usually can have more fun than women. Like in their free time, they get to play sport and do a lot more fun things I think than women.Katia: Well, Paul, I'm gonna have to disagree with that one, but tell me why. Why do you think men can have more fun than women?Paul: Maybe I'm just thinking from a man's point of view, but to me shopping sounds very boring.Katia: OK, well, I do agree with that one, but still you haven't answered my question.Paul: What was your question again?Katia: Why do you think men can have more fun than women?Paul: Just I think that men have a lot more freedom to do fun things and travel. For example, safety and traveling alone. A man can just go traveling by himself, where a woman, she has to think, where am I going, is it safe. For example, this kind of think.Katia: OK. I can understand a little bit. You were getting a little bit nervous, Paul.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Katia: Hello, everyone, this is Katia from Mexico and we are here with Paul from England, and today we're gonna have a very interesting conversation about men. What's difficult about being a man and what are the good things about being a man, so we have the right candidate for this. Paul, what are the bad things about being a man?Paul: What's difficult about being a man? Well, I think... the hardest thing I think is working. The man is under a lot of pressure to go to work and to earn money for the family.Katia: But I thought men like to work.Paul: Yeah, men do like to work of course. Like most men want to have a career but along with the work, there's a lot of pressure. They have pressure from their wife, from their kids, from their family, from the bank manager.Katia: Yeah, I guess so. That can be stressful. What else? What else are one of the bad thing of being a man?Paul: Well, I guess, if a man's... has a good job or a job that's taking up a lot of his time, this can sometimes lead to problems with his relationship, especially with his his kids, I think. For example, if the kids are spending a lot of time with their mother, usually they form a closer relationship with their mom, so the father, I think, misses out on his kids growing up sometimes.Katia: Yeah, that is true and now I can that clearly unfortunately it seems that it's a lot of bad things with the job, but I am sure they're very good things about being a man.Paul: For sure, there are a lot of advantages I think. For example, appearance. I think, for a man, he doesn't really... when he's not working, he doesn't really need to worry about his appearance. He can wear whatever clothes he wants to wear. He doesn't brush is hair or he can wear scruffy shoes for example.Katia: Mmm, are you sure about that one?Paul: Would you disagree? Yeah, I think usually that appearance is not so important for a man.Katia: Possibly.I guess women spend more time in appearances but there must be more things than this about good things about being a man.Paul: Good things? I think men usually can have more fun than women. Like in their free time, they get to play sport and do a lot more fun things I think than women.Katia: Well, Paul, I'm gonna have to disagree with that one, but tell me why. Why do you think men can have more fun than women?Paul: Maybe I'm just thinking from a man's point of view, but to me shopping sounds very boring.Katia: OK, well, I do agree with that one, but still you haven't answered my question.Paul: What was your question again?Katia: Why do you think men can have more fun than women?Paul: Just I think that men have a lot more freedom to do fun things and travel. For example, safety and traveling alone. A man can just go traveling by himself, where a woman, she has to think, where am I going, is it safe. For example, this kind of think.Katia: OK. I can understand a little bit. You were getting a little bit nervous, Paul.

 In this episode of the P100 Podcast, our hosts Paul, Dan and Logan welcome Nicole Chynoweth from the Carnegie Science Center to discuss the center’s new exhibit on mummies. From there we move on to the science of fear, and then on to hockey with their guest, Jeremy Church. This episode wraps up with a review of some unique Pennsylvania town names. We bet you have your favorites.----more----Full transcript here:Logan: You are listening to the P100 podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news culture and more because sometimes 100 words just aren't enough for a great story.Dan: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the P100 Podcast, we're happy to have you back for another episode. I am Dan Stefano, I'm here with Logan Armstrong. Logan.Logan: How's it going?Dan: A pleasure to have you with us and Paul Furiga will be joining us in a little bit. Today's episode we're going to be talking about mummies. Not your mothers, not like that Logan. I see you, that's what you're thinking. No, just having a pleasant thought, thinking about dear old mom. No, Okay.Dan: Now, we're actually going to be talking about the mummies that you might think of whenever you think of ancient Egypt and other parts of the world here. There's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center - Mummies of the World, and we're really excited to talk with someone from the Science Center about that.Dan: Afterward, we're going to be discussing the science of fear. Keeping with us, somewhat of a Halloween type of theme here. Then, we're going to be talking about, what everybody knows, it's the beginning of hockey season. Logan, you excited about that?Logan: No. Dan: No. You're not excited about hockey. Okay. Well, I am and some other people in the office, and we're going to be talking with one of them about the growth of youth hockey in the region, which is really something that's taken off in the past few couple of decades here in Pittsburgh. And we're going to finish up with Logan and I being just as serious we are now. We're going to talk about strange Pennsylvania town names. So if you make it to the end, you're going to be in for treat on that one.Logan: Oh yeah. Stay tuned.Dan: Okay, so let's get going. All right guys, for this segment we're going to talk about mummies. In particular, mummies of the world, the exhibition. It's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center and from the Science Center, we have Nicole Chynoweth. Nicole, thanks for being here.Nicole: Thank you for having me.Dan: Absolutely. Thanks for being with us here. And can we talk a little bit about your own role within the Science Center here. Can you tell us your position and a little bit what you do?Nicole: Sure. So, I'm the manager of marketing, public relations, and social media with a focus on exhibits and the Rangos Giants Cinema.Dan: Great. What does that entail then? I mean, that I imagine you you are working with a lot of different positions there. Right?Nicole: Yeah, it's a really fun job. I get my hands in everything from new movies that we have coming out at the Rangos, educational films to the exciting new exhibits that we're bringing to the science center, from space topics, planetarium related things, and mummies-Dan: Really cool, it seems like a fun place to work. Right?Paul: Nicole, you've had your hands in the mummies?Nicole: No.Paul: Okay. The promotion of the mummies.Dan: The promotion of the mummies. Paul: I'm sure we'll talk about some of the technical aspects, but that would seem a little gross, but...Nicole: I don't think so. I find the exhibition more fascinating than I do creepy. And I'm not a fan of scary movies or I did not watch the Brendan Fraser mummy movie.Paul: You didn't?Nicole: No interest in that.Paul: I did watch those.Dan: You're missing out on a classic from the 1990s.Paul: Yeah. Well, classic is a little strong-Dan: I think it should have won an Oscar, but that's just me.Paul: Okay, Dan. We'll talk about that another time. So Nicole, when I think of the science center, I think about some of the other things you mentioned. Space, technology, mummies?Nicole: Yes, mummies are, especially this show, the mummies featured in Mummies of the World, the exhibition is, have so much to offer in terms of scientific, anatomical, biological information that we can still learn from today. So what I find really exciting about the mummies of the world is that it focuses on both natural mummification and intentional mummification. So, you might be more familiar with intentional mummification. That's the type that was [crosstalk 00:04:15] practicing in ancient Egypt. Correct.Nicole: And we do have some examples of Egyptian mummification in the show, but this also takes a look at the natural mummification process that can happen when conditions are at such a level moisture wise, temperature-wise that is able to naturally mummify a body, be it animal or human.Dan: Right. Well, it sounds like some pretty amazing things to see...Paul: Yeah, it's fascinating.Dan: What are some examples maybe of the intended mummification that we'd see there? I mean, is there anything from, I guess everybody knows about Egyptian mummies but then, they're also South American. What else might you see?Nicole: So an interesting example of the intentional mummification process that aside from like the Egyptian mummies that are featured in the show, there is Mumab, also known as the Maryland Mummy. In the nineties, two scientists at the University of Maryland decided that they wanted to try their hand at an Egyptian mummification process. A man had donated his body to science, and so they started the process of mummifying him. So, you can see Mumab in the show.Nicole: That's just an interesting way of seeing how we are still learning thousands and thousands of years later about how this process works and the tools that they had to use to complete the process and what the body has to go through for mummification to occur.Dan: That's really cool.Paul: Did it work?Nicole: I've been told that it's still in process, it's not completely... He's not completely mummified yet.Paul: Take some time?Nicole: Yes.Paul: Wow. Something I never knew.Dan: That's pretty awesome. Can you tell us what else is in the exhibit then? I mean, are there any, you say interactive portions to it. What should people and families expect whenever they're inside here. It's not just, as you'd be at a museum taking a look. I mean one of the great things about the science center is it kind of hands-on.Paul: Hands-on. Yeah.Nicole: Yes. So in addition, to the 40 animal and human mummies and 85 rare related artifacts, visitors will also be able to look through several interactives related to different topics within mummification. I think a favorite among children will definitely be the, what does mummy feel like a station where you can touch different types of mummified materials, so there's like frog skin, fur. Mummified fur, different things like that they'll be able to touch these like textile panels that are examples of what those things feel like.Nicole: Another great interactive is there's a large map that shows where different types of mummies have been found all over the world, which I think is really important to look at from the perspective of which, like you said, we are so used to just thinking about Egyptian mummies.Paul: Yes.Nicole: And really there are mummies all over the world, [crosstalk 00:07:15].Paul: So not to be surprised?Nicole: Yeah.Paul: You never know where you might find a mummy!Nicole: Right, right.Dan: Okay. Well, people will hear, we can see Mummies of the World through April 19th that's correct, right?Nicole: Correct. Open through April 19th. It takes about 60 to 90 minutes to get through the exhibition, for parents that are maybe wondering if the exhibition is appropriate for their children. We do have a family guide available at carnegiesciencecenter.org/mummies, that might answer some of the questions parents have before they take their kids to the exhibition.Nicole: But I really believe that it is appropriate for all ages and I think people will take something away from the show, be it a new interest in archeology or anthropology or just being able to connect with the backstories of the mommies that are featured in the show. You get to know them. They're more than just a mummy in front of you. You learn their story, how they lived, the way they lived, where they were from. So, super excited to have it at the science center and to be able to offer this experience to Pittsburghers.Dan: That's great. Anything else happen at the science center lately?Nicole: Yes. So, it's Halloween season.Dan: Yes.Nicole: What better time than to experience a scary movie on Pittsburgh's largest screen?Paul: Very good.Nicole: The Rangos Strengths Cinema teamed up with Scare House, this year actually for Rangos x Scare House. We co-curated some Halloween movies together to offer Pittsburgh a really exciting lineup for the Halloween seasons. So we have coming up the Universal Studios Classic Monsters. We're showing the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Frankenstein and Dracula, on October 11th through the 13th.Nicole: We also have Dawn of the Dead 3D showing October 25th and the 26th. And that's a really exciting screening because they don't often show the 3D version. So if you've seen Dawn the Dead before, I can guarantee you have not seen it like this.Dan: This is the original one?Nicole: Yes. This is the original Dawn of the dead. Yes.Paul: In 3D.Nicole: In 3D.Paul: Have you seen it, Nicole?Nicole: I have not seen it. I'm not a huge fan of the scary movies, but I've been told that if there's one I should experience at the Rangos this year. It's probably this one.Dan: All right? Just how big again is the Rangos?Nicole: So we are a certified giant screen. The screen itself measures 72 by 38 feet.Paul: Wow.Nicole: We also have 45 surround sound speakers. Your average theater has 14.Paul: Dan, if you and I can get that past our spouses and into our basements. I think that'll be good.Dan: I might have to tear down a wall or two in my basement, but I think I can handle it.Paul: You know, it's all about the purpose, Dan.Dan: You know what, we're trying to fix more damage to begin with. So I think I could get this Rangos a screen down here. That'd be perfect.Paul: It'd be very nice.Dan: Nicole, how can people find out more about the Carnegie Science Center, both online and in social media?Nicole: Sure. Visit us at carnegiesciencecenter.org or find us on Facebook. Carnegie Science Center or Twitter and Instagram @Carnegie S-C-I-C-T-R.Dan: Okay. Thanks so much for coming on Nicole. We appreciate it.Nicole: Thank you.Paul: Yes.Dan: All right guys. We were just talking about mummies and now we're going to... mummies, if you'll look back at it, they're famous movie monsters, some of the old ones from the 30s, some of the more recent mummy movies and whatnot.Paul: Brendan Fraser.Dan: Exactly, yeah. I love those horror movies and I love being scared. I love this time of year whenever we get a chance to go out to a haunted house. Me and my wife try to do one at least once a year. She's not wild about them, but I have a great time. Even right now in a couple of days. I believe the scare house is going to be reopening the scare houses. One of the more popular attractions around the area of this third winter.Paul: Award-winning.Dan: Award-winning, correct. Yeah. They had to move from Etna and they're in the Strip District. I think they maybe even changed the name to reflect that, but I think, it's interesting that people love to go to these things and they're so well attended.Dan: You see the lines around the block just to be scared and so I've had a chance to go look at the psychology of fear here, and there's an interesting phenomenon that researchers have found called VANE. It's V-A-N-E, and it stands for Voluntary Arousing Negative Experiences. Logan or Paul, you guys ever felt anything like that? Do you have any voluntary experiences?Paul: Yes. Dan, some people call that work?Dan: No. Yes.Paul: I've absolutely. So, I mean, I'm the old guy in the room. You think back to when I was a teenager, the voluntary arousing negative experience was to take the date you really like to a scary movie.Dan: Okay.Paul: I think we're going to get into this Dan, some of the why this is in... Things that people will voluntarily do you, you might not have expected a certain level of affection from your date, but if you took her to a scary movie, there would be the involuntary reaction when something happened on the screen of-Dan: Them getting closer? There you go. That's clever.Paul: Yeah. Well, and it's all this time at least all the scary movies.Dan: I think, when you look at some of the research here, what they point at, one of the most important parts of that is that it `is voluntary and that people were making a conscious decision to go out and be scared. And a lot of that is about overcoming stress. And you might go in with another person, you're working together to try to get through this shared experience here, fighting the monsters, try not to punch the actors who are just trying to have a good time and scare you.Dan: But they get a chance to get outside of themselves, and as we said, face a fear and there's really a great quote here from a woman named Justine Musk. Her quote says, "Fear is a powerful beast, but we can learn to ride it". I think that's just a very good succinct way to put it. But our good friend Logan here, you were actually a psychology major for a couple of years at Pitt and you know a lot about fear.Logan: Yes. So, as you said, I was a psychology major for a few years. I really enjoy just kind of how humans work. But so basically what it is that you have a part of your brain and it's a little almond-shaped lobe called a medulla. But, so basically what happens is that you're, when you see emotions on people's faces or when you see something that would cause you to emote in a certain way.Logan: So, say you see you're out in the wild and you see a lion and you're like, well that's not good. So that message sends to your medulla, which then sends to your limbic system. And if you guys are aware of the limbic system, it's your fight or flight response.Dan: Yes, okay.Logan: When you experience these negative arousals, that kicks into high gear and that pumps adrenaline through your entire body, your pupils dilate, your bronchitis dilates, just you're in this hyper-aware zone, and that's where adrenaline junkies get it from.Logan: It's a similar thing to where you're experiencing fear where you might be scared, but your adrenaline is pumping so much and it's releasing so many endorphins and dopamine that you end up enjoying it.Dan: Well. Okay, now we know whenever we either go to a haunted house or if we go see the mummies exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center, none of us are going to be scared because we know all the science, and we just know what's going on in our brain.Paul: Well, I mean this is also why people like roller coasters shout out to the steel curtain at Kennywood. Because they know it's safe. Right?Dan: Right.Paul: The experience is scary, but it's safe. When you go and see a movie. Yes. You sure hope so. You see the movie, you know it's going to be an hour and 20 minutes or two hours or whatever and when it's over, you may have been scared during the movie, but you're okay. The same with the rollercoaster, three minutes and then you're back in line, right it again. Right? Because you've enjoyed that safe experience of being scared.Logan: And it's the same concept where it's going back to my earlier example. If you see a lion in the wild or you're going to be scared. But if you go to the zoo, you're going to think it's cute or whether somebody else tickles you, you get a reaction, but you can't tickle yourself because your brain knows it's not a threat.Dan: Well, we do see a lot of alligators on the streets of Pittsburgh these days, so I don't know. You know what I mean. Maybe we'll see a lion the next, but I don't know that's all there is to know about fear or at least a good introduction for it. So, yeah. Logan, thanks for the knowledge there.Logan: Sure thing.Dan: Yeah. Maybe you should have stayed as a psychology major.Paul: He won't be here helping us today.Dan: That's a fair point.Logan: Now he's like "you really should've stayed a psych major"Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections are made around fires. As we shared, the stories have shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At Word Wright, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency. We understand that before you had a brand before you sold any product or service, you had a story.Logan: Word Wright helps clients to uncover their own Capital S story. The reason someone would want to buy work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process, visit wordpr.com to uncover your capitalist story.Paul: All right guys. It's a fun time of year because the penguins are back in action. We're all hoping that they can get back to the Stanley cup this year. Who better to have on our vice president Jeremy Church here at one of our vice presidents here at WordWrite. Jeremy, you're involved with hockey and can you tell us a little bit about that?Jeremy: Sure. I've been fortunate to be involved with the game for nearly 40 years now as a player and a coach. Grew up starting about eight I guess in Michigan. Then we moved here in 10 continued to play, went away to prep school and played all through prep school Junior A, was fortunate enough again to play in college and then the last 17 years at various levels. I've been able to coach.Paul: That's awesome. Yeah, Who do you coach with?Jeremy: Right now, I'm coaching my younger son. With 11 Hornets, youth hockey organization. Prior to that, I helped with the high school in Mount Lebanon for five years. Coached at Shady Side Academy for a year and again using the word fortunate was able to go back to the Prep school. I played at Culver Military Academy and coached there for six years and it's a pretty storied program.Paul: That's fair and awesome. Well, Pittsburgh's got a long history in hockey going back to the turn of the century here, pretty much and but from a lot of people, the history and hockey didn't start until Mario Lemieux got here in the early eighties and Jeremy have a fun story about Mario Lemieux actually.Jeremy: I do. There've been two big booms locally when it comes to the growth of the sport. And certainly the first one had to have been when Merrill was drafted back in 1984 so we had just moved here from outside of Detroit and moved to the South Hills and we went to South Hills village one day and the mall was still there. At the time it was Kaufman's Department Store, which is no longer there.Paul: Oh yeah, the mall's there now just no Kaufmann's.Jeremy: So we're walking through and there's a little table set up and there are two or three people sitting there, one of them towers over all the others. And as we get closer and closer, there's no line at all. Mind you, it's Mario Lemieux sitting there signing autographs before he'd ever played a game.Jeremy: So, we walked up to the table, got his autograph. He still really couldn't speak English that well. But if you could imagine today the kind of stir it would create if Mario were around talking at to anyone in any environment. It was the exact opposite back then. I still have the autograph today.Paul: What did you get autographed?Jeremy: They had little teeny pamphlets of him in his Junior A Laval and from the Quebec Major Junior League Jersey, and that's all they had to sign. I think it was him. And it might've been Paul Steigerwald because at the time he was head of showing Mario around town and Mario, for those who don't remember when he was 18 actually lived with a host family in Mount Lebanon for the first year that he was here when he was 18.Paul: Yeah. Well, like I said it, whenever he first got here, he lived with Lemieux.Jeremy: Yeah, he returned the favor.Paul: Well, since that day, whenever there was no line at Kauffman's, today there was no more Kauffman's and you would have a gigantic line. But so what can you say about just seeing the growth of hockey? Especially from a youth hockey angle here, you've been front and center with it your entire life?Jeremy: It's pretty remarkable. Doing a little research earlier and in 1975 there were basically two rinks that you could play out of indoor rinks for Youth Hockey: Rostraver Gardens, which is still around and Mount Lebanon Recreation Center, which is still around.Jeremy: By 1990, when I was in high school, there were 10 and now that figure is roughly doubled to around 20 in the region. There are 62 high school teams and there are 28 organizations in the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League. And within the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League, there are now 5,600 players. And that's for those who are around playing in the eighties or growing up in the eighties and early nineties here, that's almost hard to believe there's, you know that there are 28 organizations, but if you go down through the ranks of 18 and under 16 and under 14, 12, ten eight and under age groups, there's dozens and dozens of teams at various levels all throughout that.Jeremy: So, for last year at the ten-year level, ten-year-old level, there were 80 plus 10 new teams in PAHL, Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League League. So pretty remarkable.Paul: Right, Yeah. The majority of those kids, they're probably not going to be heading to the NHL, but a lot of kids want to at least, pretend that they're one of their heroes and get involved in the game. And I think one of the problems, maybe not a problem with hockey, but one of the issues surrounding it is there is a perception that there is a bit of a barrier to entry. You've got to have skates, you've got to have pads, you've got to have a good helmet, you've got to have a good stick. There's a lot of, there's a lot to that kit there. Jeremy, there are easier ways for kids to get involved in the game today though, right?Jeremy: Yes. Part of the Testament to the Penguins organization and certainly as Sidney Crosby has been, his emphasis and involvement with youth programs and youth hockey initiatives. And not just in Pittsburgh, but I know as well back when he returns to Canada in the summer and throughout the year, he likes to give back to the community.Jeremy: But a big initiative that started, it's now celebrating it's 10 year anniversary or 11 year anniversary is the little Penguins learn to play hockey, where Sid partnered with Dick's sporting goods to give, what is now I believe more than a thousand sets of free equipment out to kids who want to start playing the sport. So that goes hand in hand with a program that I think runs six weeks, eight weeks, in January, February to get kids introduced to hockey.Jeremy: But to your point in that, the big barrier to entry is the cost of equipment, which can be several hundred dollars even for kids that are five, six, seven years old. So that's certainly got a lot of kids involved in the game and has led to those massive increases in participation that I cited before.Paul: All right, that's awesome, Jeremy. Well, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us about hockey. We're hoping for another good season from the Penguins. Maybe a longer playoff run than last year. We got a bit of a break last year. I think they earned it after winning a couple of cups. But yeah, thanks again and yeah, we'll talk to you soon.Jeremy: No problem. Thanks to you.Dan: Right. This next segment. We're going to learn a little more about our co-host Logan Armstrong. Logan is from Eighty Four, PA.Logan: That I am.Dan: Now, we got talking about this and it got us, we started, you know, going down a rabbit hole and we got discussing why 84 was actually named 84? At first, I thought it was named after the construction company the-Logan: 84 Lumber.Dan: Yeah, 84 Lumber, and it turns out I was wrong. That 84 is named after 84 PA, and there's a lot of history and a lot of different theories about how the town was named. Logan, do you want to go through some of them maybe?Logan: Yeah, sure. So there are a couple theories. 84 is quite the town. There's not much in it other than 84 Lumber, but you know, it's nice. There are a lot of theories on how it was named, the most popular of which is that it commemorated Grover Cleveland's 1884 election victory. Some other theories were that it's on mile 84 of the railway mail service. My favorite though is that it's located at 80 degrees and four minutes West longitude. This seems like the most probable to me.Dan: My favorite actually is apparently in 1869 general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton had an outfit of 84 soldiers with them and held off an attack of Outlaws. Now that just sounds fantastic. Yeah.Logan: That sounds quite heroic. If that is the case. I am proud to be from 84 PA.Dan: Maybe you're a descendant of general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton here. Is that possible?Logan: Yeah. I believe I'm Logan "Crazy Toes" Armstrong.Dan: Okay, keep your shoes on man! We don't want to see anything. Well, after this, after we talked about 84 we also started taking a look at some other weird names for towns in Pennsylvania here and if you go online, you can find quite a few of them. Logan, what were some of the interesting ones you like you?Logan: There are quite a few to choose from. A couple of my favorites were, while the all known intercourse, PA, which is actually the most stolen sign in Pennsylvania, where it says "Welcome to Intercourse" for good reason.Dan: Obvious reasons.Logan: Right. Going along that same route, a rough and ready PA was, they named it after a California Gold Rush town, so I guess they're rough and ready to get some gold out there. Can't blame them for that.Dan: I imagine that sign is also been stolen many times.Logan: Right. Okay. Then, well, let's play a game here. I'm going to give you some Pennsylvania town names and you're going to tell me how you think that those names came to be. How's that sound?Dan: Bring them on. I'm a repository of knowledge.Logan: Okay, great. Peach Bottom.Dan: Peach Bottom. This is simple. This is extremely simple. Everybody in the town of Peach Bottom is very short, and they're, but they're also Peach farmers, so they can only see the bottom of the peaches that come from the trees. It's kind of a shame because they've never seen the peach tops.Logan: That is a shame. Those peach tops are so beautiful.Dan: We have an actual reason why it's called Peach Bottom?Logan: In fact, Dan, you weren't too far off, Peach Bottom. Got its name in 1815 from a peach orchard owned by a settler named John Kirk.Dan: John Kirk was very short, as we all know.Logan: Right? Yes. Okay. Shickshinny, Pennsylvania. What do you think of that?Dan: Schickshinny. Ah, got it. Okay. Shickshinny is named after a famous dance created by the person who created Schick shaving blades. Fun fact, a few people realize that he had a dance. Whenever he would cut his face on his old rusty blades, he would do a little jig-Logan: A little jig!Dan: In a big thing because it can... to get the pain away, and so he decided I've got to create a better, more comfortable blade and so he created the Schick shaving blade.Logan: Well, I foresee-Dan: Everybody knows this.Logan: I've foreseen the future...We had the Whip, we had the Nae Nae. Next, we're going to have the Shickshinny going on in all the clubs in Pittsburgh.Dan: I think this one is actually one of those Indian words that have made a lot of Pennsylvania names here.Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It looks like an Indian word that either means the land of mountains or land of the fine stream.Dan: Or land of the cutting your face on your favorite razor.Logan: Yeah, I think that's the most common translation. Yeah.Dan: Sure.Logan: We are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong, and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe at P100podcast.com or wherever you listen to podcasts, and follow us on Twitter @Pittsburgh100_, for all the latest news updates and more, from the Pittsburgh 100.

Welcome to another episode of the P100 Podcast. Today we cover our own Port Authority. Robin Rectenwald shares with us some local getaways inside tips. Director, Dawn Keezer from the Pittsburgh Film Office talks about on location in Pittsburgh. This episode winds up with Pittsburgh Polyphony spotlight - Flower Crown.This Episode is sponsored by WordWriteCenturies before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story.WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S Story.Here is the full transcript from this episode:Logan: You're listening to the P100 Podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news, culture, and more. Because sometimes 100 words just aren't enough for a great story.Dan: All right. Welcome back to another episode of The P100 Podcast. I'm Dan Stefano. I'm here with Logan Armstrong.Logan: Good to see you again, Dan.Dan: And Paul Furiga, who'll be joining us just momentarily.Dan: Today's episode, we've got four segments for you. First, we're going to be discussing public transportation in both Pittsburgh and other American cities. We're going to talk with Dawn Keezer of the Pittsburgh Film Office, which will be a lot of fun. It was a really good chat with her. We're going to discuss quick getaways you can take outside of Pittsburgh. Sometimes you got to get away, and we'll be talking with Robin Rectenwald of WordWrite for that one, and then we'll finish it up with talking about a good local Pittsburgh band for our Pittsburgh polyphony series. Excited to hear that, so let's get to it.PORT AUTHORITYPaul: All right guys. Let's talk planes, trains, and autonomous automobiles. A little shout out there to the old John Candy movie.Dan: That's a classic movie.Paul: It is a classic movie.Dan: Steve Martin too, right?Paul: Steve Martin, that's right. Yes indeed.Logan:Much before my time.Paul:Oh, you got to see that movie.Dan: Logan, you weren't even alive.Paul: You weren't alive, but you can stream it.Dan: Is it John Hughes?Paul: Yes. I think it's a John Hughes film actually, one of the-Dan: Okay. See, I know my movie stuff.Paul: ... few he did in that era when it wasn't all about teen angst. But speaking of teen angst and public transportation, it seems like a perennial topic in the news in Pittsburgh, is how to get from point A to point B. And I just don't mean the topography. For instance, if you drew my street on a map, it would look like a lasso, you know the old cowboy thing?Dan: Sure.Paul: You can get onto Courtney Place, the street I live on, and turn left on Courtney Place and go around a circle and turn left, and you're still on Courtney Place. That's another issue. What we're talking about today is, maybe because of things like that, how difficult it is to get from point A to point B. And the importance of public transportation.Paul: And so, recently Dan, Logan, we were looking at the news about the Port Authority starting or considering some 24-hour transit routes. And Logan, I know you're an Oakland denizen, some of those routes would head out that way, that we'd start with you. Thoughts?Logan: Yeah, I'd be a big fan of that. I know that they're only considering really the heavier routes, which obviously make sense. You don't want to have empty buses going all night, but I think that would be really helpful.Logan: I know there have been a few times where, whether I'm in Oakland or elsewhere past midnight or so, I mean, it gets pretty scarce trying to get to point A to point B, and there are Uber and Lyft, but Pitt students have Pitt IDs and they get free Port Authority rides, and so, I mean, you're going to expect college students to be out pretty late, so I think they should be able to take advantage of that. So I think it's a great idea.Dan: Well, it's not only for the college students too. I believe one of the aims behind the Port Authority trying this is to help people who might work late shift. Those late shift workers who, maybe they're not done until 2:00 or 3:00, and they're working at least on some areas near these routes and it really helps them, and I think they're important to have for modern city living.Paul: You know, one of the challenges that we've had in the last several years is funding for public transportation. I think that still is a huge issue. Now we have competition for public transportation.Paul: Logan, you mentioned ride sharing, Lyft or Uber. And of course Pittsburgh is a hotbed for autonomous vehicle development, and it made a bit of news a few weeks ago when the CEO of one of the companies here in Pittsburgh that are testing autonomous vehicles, Argo AI, wrote a medium blog post in which he said that that company will never build autonomous vehicles for personal use.Paul: And I think a lot of people were figuring that, again, remember my street, it goes in a circle, that Uber and all of them were here because they were ... If you can figure out how to drive in Pittsburgh in an autonomous vehicle, you could drive anywhere in an autonomous vehicle.Paul: I don't know. Dan, what do you think? Autonomous vehicles in your garage? Yes? No?Dan: I don't know. Maybe a personal vehicle…that'd be a difficult buy-in. I think it's one of those things where just in my life I've always had a car that I drive myself. I mean, obviously if, say in the future there are babies that are born that only know autonomous vehicles and might be used to it for them.Dan: But I can say that I have been in an autonomous car. And I've had the AI driving me around. I took an Uber once that was an AI car, and obviously there were two people in the front seats, one behind the wheel who just had, was a little bit hands-off, and then another with the computer taking in all the data. It was a really cool experience.Dan: But one part that, at one moment we were driving through, I believe it was Bloomfield or somewhere along Baum Boulevard, and we came to one of those classic Pittsburgh 19-streets-meet-at-once intersections. And there was somebody coming in the opposing lane who had made a sharp cut in front of us. And the car made a really sudden stop. And so, I was talking with the operators about it and they said one of the problems that, problems or issues or minor things is, these AI, they still have to take into account other people's decisions. And that's really where I think that that's where the work has got to be done yet, in autonomous vehicles here.Dan: And so, it's going to be tough if not every car out there is going to be driven by another robot, you know?Paul: Well, and you know, Dan, we were talking about this earlier, and if you think about it, if every new vehicle after some date and time were autonomous, you would still have, what did you say? 200 million?Dan: I couldn't tell you how many-Paul: Millions.Dan: ... cars are out there, but probably hundreds of millions of cars.Paul: Non-autonomous vehicles.Dan: Right. Precisely. So it's going to take a while before this stuff is at its scale and it's the only thing available.Logan: Yeah. You can map streets all you want, but you can't really map human decision making.Paul: Well, one thing we know for sure, the topic of getting from A to B here in Pittsburgh is not going to go away anytime soon. So on some distant future podcast, look for us to update our musings on getting from here to there.Dan: You're going to keep complaining about that lasso, aren't you?Paul: I am.GETAWAYSDan: All right. For this next segment, we have Robin Rectenwald. And she's an account supervisor here at WordWrite.Dan: Robin, thanks for being here.Robin: Thanks for having me.Dan: Absolutely. We wanted to bring you in because a couple of stories recently that we had in the 100 discussed some short getaways that you can take from Pittsburgh here. And there were both some really interesting luxury type locations, and Robin, one of those places that you went to was Bedford Springs Resort in Bedford, PA. And you talked about just being your first solo trip, but also just seemed like a really cool, unique place that was a quick little drive away.Robin: Yeah. My best friend had actually told me about the Omni Bedford Springs Resort. She needed some time away, she was going through a really stressful time in her life. And so, years later I finally was able to take the trip for myself. It was on my to-do list for a while.Dan: Sure. Well, it seems like it's pretty cool to take one of these trips, and it's really just in your backyard, too. And I think maybe a lot of people don't quite realize all of these ... You don't have to go all the way to the coast. You don't have to go to California or something, Florida, to find a really great vacation. And did you find that?Robin: Yeah, that's what I loved about this trip. I actually am someone who doesn't like to drive very far distances by myself. I'm a little bit of a drowsy driver.Dan: That's really safe, to be on a Pennsylvania turnpike as a drowsy driver!Robin: Yeah. But this one was quick and easy. It was literally on the dot two hours. So yeah, just getting there was super easy. I felt comfortable going by myself.Dan: Right. And was it as relaxing as it claimed to be?Robin: It was beautiful. I really did feel like I was in paradise. The hotel itself is beautiful, it's historic, so you go in, it's these big staircases, these old elevators, this creaky floors. It was just taking a step back into time into, like the 18 hundreds.Dan: It's kind of like The Shining hotel before it became The Shining hotel. Right?Robin: Much less creepy.Dan: Right, yeah. No Jack Nicholson bursting through your door. That's good to know.Dan: Logan, you recently wrote just recently in the 100 here about some pretty cool little cabins through a company called Getaway.Logan: Yeah, quite a fitting name. I had seen one of their ads on some social media, and-Dan: Social media has ads?Logan: I know, right? It's incredible.Dan: Wow.Logan: But so, they're these cabins, they're just 45 minutes from Pittsburgh. They're in Lisbon Creek, Ohio, tucked right next to a state park out there. And yeah, I mean, they're cabins across these 59 acres of land, and I'm definitely trying to make it out there. I haven't yet, but they look beautiful and they're nice and away from wifi so you can just let yourself go. But so, I had seen one of their ads on social media and I've now been barraged with Getaway ads for the past two weeks on every single social media platform.Logan: But yeah, it's 45 minutes, something just quick and easy, you can getaway. It doesn't take too much time off work if any at all. Just go out there for the weekend and just relax.Dan: Right? Now those cabins are actually next to Beaver Creek State Park. So very close. And I edited that story, so I have a lot of ads from Getaway right now, too. It's great.Dan: I think one thing that is cool to remember here is that we can take these small trips, and it's such a great time of year to get away and be into the country. Do you guys like going out, maybe doing some hiking, going to see some fall leaves? Robin?Robin: Yeah, I'm actually going on a train ride with my mom, the end of September. It's in Elks, West Virginia, and they have these four-hour train rides. So yeah, another quick getaway.Dan: Right? When I was a kid, I took a, it was all the way up in North Central PA. We took a trip through the --Robin: Oh, Kinzua Bridge?Dan: Yeah. Which, I don't think that exists anymore. I'm pretty sure it got blown down-Robin: No, it's still there. I was just there in May.Dan: Oh. I could have sworn it got blown down in a storm. I guess I'm completely wrong.Robin: It's partially did, so you can actually go there and see a partial bridge, and you can hike underneath it. It's pretty cool.Dan: Oh wow. That's really cool. Yeah, so I remember it being very high, so that's pretty cool.Logan: Yeah. I also love going out to Ohiopyle, or Ohiopyle depending on who you ask. But that's great. It's probably a two, two and a half hours. You can go out there and see Fallingwater while you're out there. Yeah. Lots of hiking trails.Robin: Kentuck Knob.Logan: What's that?Robin: Kentuck Knob is another Frank Lloyd Wright's house right nearby Fallingwater.Logan: Oh really?Robin: Yeah.Logan: See, I did not know that. I’ve got to put that on the list.Dan: Right. Well, I think the important thing to take away from this is, everybody, we've got some really great fall weather coming up, some really awesome leaves to see and foliage, and everybody should definitely take advantage of these locations that are just a couple hours away.Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story.Logan: WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S Story.PITTSBURGH IN FILMPaul: Well, welcome back everybody. I'm Paul Furiga, I'm publisher of the Pittsburgh 100 and President and Chief Storyteller of WordWrite. And we are pleased today to have with us Dawn Keezer, who on September 24th will celebrate 25 years of running the Pittsburgh Film Office.Paul: Logan, that's just hard to believe, isn't it?Logan: Yeah, no, it's awesome. I'm glad that we have such a great organization here in Pittsburgh. It does wonders for the city.Paul: Dawn, welcome.Dawn: Thank you.Paul: Tell us a little bit about the film office and what you folks do.Dawn: Well, the Pittsburgh Film Office is an economic development agency that focuses on marketing Southwestern Pennsylvania to the film industry. And that includes everything from feature films, television shows that you see on TV, commercials, documentaries, corporate videos. Anything, I used to say, anything rolling any kind of film. Now it's anybody using their iPhone that's doing anything on a professional level. We're helping them make that happen here in Southwestern PA. We represent all 10 counties in the region. Some people don't realize how big a reach the film office has.Logan: Tell us a little bit about your day-to-day role in the film office and what you're doing on a day-to-day basis.Dawn: Well, we have a huge staff at the film office. There's three of us that work there full time and that includes me. We all do a little bit of everything.Dawn: I've been there a really long time, so I'm the go-to both for our relationships with the government officials who really help us make everything happen when we're closing streets and closing bridges and need help getting into places like SCI Pittsburgh, but essentially the film office is a one-stop shop for the film and entertainment industry.Dawn: Whether they need permits to close streets, whether they're looking for an office supply company to give them their copier machines, for lumber for to build their sets, to find local crew. Anything that's going to involve their project moving forward, they call the film office and we're the ones that help them make that happen.Paul: When Logan and I were talking about this segment, Dawn, we were talking about the history. One of the cool things that people always talk about with Pittsburgh is that so much happens here with film and with TV, but that didn't happen by accident. Tell us how the film office got started and why.Dawn: Well, the film office got started, as I was told, I'm the second director, Robert Curran was who actually was here when they started the film office under the Greater Pittsburgh Office Of Promotion. It was all being operated, I'm showing you guys, because I like to use my hands, but it was in the bottom drawer of a person working in Mayor Sophie Masloff's office at the time. He'd pull out a drawer, go, "Okay, what do we do with this one?"Dawn: And when Silence of the Lambs decided to film in Pittsburgh, they went, "Wow, we've really got to step this up."Dawn: So the Greater Pittsburgh Office Of Promotion created the Pittsburgh Film Office. Russ Streiner, who's our current board chair, actually founded the film office with a few others, and they really started professionalizing the whole approach. By the time I got here it was an established film office, but it was really about making sure the community is protected and the clients, the film companies, are getting what they want done and accomplished.Dawn: Pittsburgh looks great, but everyone feels good about it at the end of the day.Paul: I think, and Logan, chime in here, but most people in Pittsburgh, and I'm making a generalization here, but I think they're proud to see Pittsburgh in TV and film, but we don't really have an understanding as Pittsburghers of how this all really works.Paul: An economic impact of 650 million, you said?Dawn: Well, that's how much wanted to be spent here. And it is.Paul: Wanted it to be spent.Dawn: They wanted to spend here. We're going to be lucky to retain about 200 million of it.Paul: Oh my goodness.Dawn: And this is money spent throughout the entire economy. The big spend, of course, is on our local crew, which we have some of the most experienced, amazing craftsmen that work in this, craftsmen and women, who work in this industry throughout the region.Dawn: Our crew is so good people travel them. They take them elsewhere because if they're not working at home, they leave. And in the old days they were lucky to stay. I say the old days prior to the film tax credits, they were lucky to be here for one film a year, and then they would go work in different states, in different places. They've all been able to stay home now.Paul: Well, let's talk about that for a second, because, in Pennsylvania anyway, it seems like certain legislators get upset about the size of the credit. But from what I've seen, our credit's not really that big compared to other states.Dawn: Our credit is woefully underfunded and oversubscribed. We needed $127 million dollars to retain all the work that Southwestern Pennsylvania had for this year alone. And we have to share the film tax credit with our friends over in Philly. We're one of the only states that have two production centers, meaning two places where people film.Dawn: I equate the tax credit to a 25% off coupon you get at your local store. This is money coming in. We're giving them 25 cents on every dollar they spend after they've spent 60% of their budget in the commonwealth. And they have to prove this. They fill out forms, they're audited. We know where every dime is spent on every single thing they do well before they ever get their tax credit certificate.Dawn: We just keep having the conversations and hopefully, we'll get to the point where they go, "Oh, we really do need to increase the film tax credit."Dawn: Georgia has a 30% uncapped tax credit. I told you, we had topped 1.5 billion this last year, and that's since 1990. Georgia had six billion dollars’ worth of film work last year.Paul: Wow. Now that is just amazing.Dawn: And they're looking for other places to go. If you look at the level of content that's being created right now, with the growth in all the streaming channels and everything else, they're all looking for homes. It's Netflix, it's Disney, it's Amazon. All our clients, they've all been here, they're all coming back. They're all, it just ... We have an opportunity here to really grow it, and I'm really hoping we get to capitalize on it this year.Logan: Like you said, everything you're saying makes sense. I would think that just pounding the nail and then hopefully it gets through some people's heads and realize that there are two production centers here and that that would bring so much money into our economy that otherwise goes unspent.Logan: Through your 25 years though, it sounds like people have wanted to less have Pittsburgh as a double, and actually want their film set in Pittsburgh. Would you say that's correct?Dawn: It's really interesting. It's a great question because we've really seen a growth in the number of shows that set it here. And primarily we're getting more people to write Pittsburgh into the scripts. There's more work being created. It saves them money when they set it in Pittsburgh because then they don't have to worry about, "Oh, there went a police car that's got the wrong logo on it, there goes -Paul: Re-badging, resigning things, yes.Dawn: ... everything."Dawn: We've seen a huge increase in that, which has been fun and it makes life a lot easier for everybody. And it gives us some great marketing.Dawn: Sometimes not so much. Right? Sometimes it's not a storyline that Pittsburgh would want to promote, but again, it's a movie. We're not portraying real life here, or a TV show, whatever it happens to be.Paul: That's great. So, as Pittsburghers, what can we do to help the film industry here thrive and grow?Dawn: Well, what we're really lucky about, I always tell people there are three main reasons anyone films here. It's the tax credits, it's our crew, it's the diversity of locations.Dawn: The fourth unofficial one is the film friendliness of Pittsburgh. We welcome these projects with open arms. We still are excited about it. Yeah, sometimes they block your driveway. Sometimes they're in the way, and we deal with all this usually minor inconveniences that happen throughout the region, but for the most part, we're very supportive. So we'd love for that to continue when people really get to know how friendly our region is.Dawn: Our website is pghfilm.org. We're on all of the social media channels, Facebook, Twitter, everywhere else you're supposed to be these days. It's important that you go check in on what's happening, and if you want to be an extra, we put that information up on our website. We really try to keep things up to date and current as possible.Dawn: I mentioned we have three full-time employees. I have a full staff of interns, they're amazing, from all the local major universities in the region, and they're charged with getting all that stuff updated, so they've been doing a great job. But it's really just checking in and staying supportive.Dawn: And for the legislators that are listening, are you people out there who have friends that are legislators? It's important to remind them that the film tax credit affects the entire region. Not just the people who see the direct impact, but the entire region. We're all benefiting from this economic development generator. And the goal with the tax credits was to not only have an incentive but to build an industry sector. We've done that. Now we need to start building infrastructure and getting purpose-built sound stages and getting some things moving.Dawn: Just supporting the film industry as a whole, as a real viable business in the region, it's really the key.Logan: Great. Well, thank you so much for being here, Dawn. We really appreciate you being here and giving your info and knowledge and expertise on this. This has definitely given me an expanded view of what the Pittsburgh Film Office does. And so, yeah, just thanks for being here.Logan: This is Logan Armstrong and Paul Furiga with the P100 Podcast, and thanks again.Dawn: Thank you.FLOWER CROWN MUSICLogan: Okay, Dan, coming into our next segment, I want to take a couple of minutes to spotlight a local band, Flower Crown, who is on the Crafted Sounds record label, who is a local record label which is run by my friend, Connor Murray. They're doing a lot of great things. But Flower Crown is, I would call them dream-pop, very hazy, very ambient, chill.Logan: My first introduction to them was when I heard their song Bender Szn, it landed on Spotify's Fresh Finds Six Strings playlist, which is a pretty prominent playlist in the platform. It got them a lot of good exposure. As an artist, you're always looking to get on playlists like those.Logan: But yeah, I know you had a little chance to listen to them. What did you think?Dan: Yeah, I think that dream-pop is maybe a good way to describe them. I hadn't heard that term for a genre until you brought it up to me. Until you introduced me to this band here, but I'd agree with it. They'd be nice to just have, put them on for a good mix, a good playlist for a long drive or something like that. And just a nice, kind of soothing, but they do a pretty nice job with their instrumentation. They sound good. So yeah. Excited to hear some more.Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It's a five-member band. And what I like about Flower Crown is that while the music is, like you said, it's great for a long road trip. It's very just, you can kind of get into it. They create their own atmosphere. I haven't met them personally, but from what I've seen on social media and in the public, they're pretty likable guys.Logan: Their profile picture on Facebook has one of them in a big hot dog suit. One of their single covers has them taking off, the guy's in an alien suit, they're taking off his alien head, almost like a Scooby-Doo character. It's nice to be able to see bands that you're able to relate with and are still making music on that scale.Dan: That's awesome. What are we going to hear from them coming up?Logan: Yeah. As I mentioned earlier, I think a great introduction to them is Bender Szn, off their latest project called Sundries, which came out in May. It's a great little single to head out into your day. Very chill. Great for a day like this in October. So yeah, I hope you enjoy.

Another speaker from the Mozon conference, Paul Shapiro is the person behind one of the most important SO subreddits, /r/bigSEO, he has a very unique blog on Search Wilderness and runs a Technical SEO conference. Here are his slides from the presentation, and you should go and check out his blog post, where you can find all the code that he talks about in the presentation. Redefining Technical SEO, #MozCon 2019 by Paul Shapiro from Paul Shapiro Here is the transcript of the podcast: Paul Shapiro: There are four types of technical SEO. [music] Peter Mesarec: This is Time for Marketing, the marketing podcast that will tell you everything you've missed when you didn't attend the marketing conference. [music] Peter: Hello and welcome to the Time for Marketing, the podcast that brings you all of the information from the marketing conferences that you have missed or were not able to attend. This is episode number 23. We are big into our second year of podcasting. My name is still, from the beginning to the end, Peter and I'm your host for the podcast. If you love the podcast, of course, go and subscribe. If you would like to be on our newsletter or mailing list, you can find it on our website timeformarketing.com. All of that just to start off because we have to go directly into our content. We have a great guest here with us today. Paul Shapiro, hello and welcome to the podcast. Paul: Hi, Peter. Thanks for having me. Peter: Paul, you live in or around New York. How is living in one of the best, biggest, and other great things, cities in the world? Paul: It is the best. It's the best to be living in the best city. [chuckles] Actually, I just moved from Boston although I'm from the area originally. It's nice to be home. Peter: Do you people from New York regularly take a stroll down the-- I just forgot the name of the giant park that you have down there. Paul: Central Park. Peter: Do you just daily go there or is that another thing and we just only feel that Hollywood movies show that to us? Paul: It's not that close to where I am currently. Growing up as a child, I used to always go to Central Park. It was definitely a place where I spent a lot of time. New Yorkers certainly go to Central Park and it's been fine there. Peter: One of the best things that I've thought about New York is that you are in probably the greatest metropolitan area, but you can take the subway, Paul, where you call the local train directly to the beach and you can go swimming. It's very close and this is a really great thing. Not a lot of big cities have things like that. Paul: That's true. I think I probably take enough for granted, but it is nice. Peter: Paul, right now, people probably know you. You've done a lot of great things on the internet, especially people that like to work on and about SEO. There is a nice quote they found about you on the internet. It says, "In a world filled with shitty blog posts that rehash the same info in different ways, Paul's articles are always a treat to read." You are the partner and head of SEO of the catalyst agency and you are the founder of the big SEO subreddit. Tell us a bit more about how you got into SEO and why do you think that SEO is if you do think that SEO is the best channel in the world. Paul: I got into SEO by no spectacular means. I think a lot of people in the industry have much more impressive stories than I do. It was the job that I got into right after university. I'd graduated, had a mild interest in marketing, and actually was looking to get into social media marketing and couldn't find any jobs. At least no companies were willing to hire me for such a role. It just so happened that in my formative years in high school and earlier, instead of working a typical retail job or McDonald's, I did freelance web design and development. I didn't even know what SEO was when I graduated, but I applied to one SEO job and I got that one. I was educated afterwards why it was such a great fit for me. I've been working in the industry ever since. Peter: All right. You are known for a separated big SEO. It has become one of the important parts of where people go to find SEO-related questions. Do you think that reddit as a community has an added value compared to other maybe Slack communities or Telegram communities or even just websites? Paul: Yes. It fills an interesting need. I'm on a lot of Slack communities and private chat rooms. They're great because you're only talking to certain people. It's completely private. That information is not going to be shared around. It serves its purpose and then there's much more public channels and there is reddit, which is in between. It is both a public platform. People can see what you're saying. A lot of people tend to anonymize themselves. They don't use their real names. They use pseudonyms. They create new accounts just to ask a certain question. There's a level of privacy. People could be a little bit more real in a way while still making a public statement or asking a question in public. I think we've done a good job and we still try to make big SEO a place where we can have someone to facilitate that communication in the industry. Peter: Yes, that is all true. Let's go to the topic at hand. You spoke at MozCon 2019. You're actually the second speaker for MozCon in row. I just spoke actually a couple of hours ago with Luke Carthy. He is the episode before you, the episode number 22. How was your experience of MozCon? Was this your first time at-- Paul: Yes. MozCon is a fantastic conference. It's one of the few in the industry that I would recommend. The other being in the conference that I founded TechSEO Boost. It's a conference dedicated to technical SEO. It was my second MozCon. I've been to MozCon once before back in 2015. I always had this yearning to come back. It was a pleasure for me to be actually asked to speak and present on technical SEO at a conference that I truly respect in the industry. Peter: Okay. Your presentation was really finding technical SEO. Here are your five minutes so that you sum up your presentation and then we'll talk about it. Paul: The presentation was redefining technical SEO. Started out painting the picture of the SEO, but we've been taught of having three different pillars, being we're catering to relevance, which is content strategy catering to authority, which is link building, link development, digital PR. There's this third one, which is "technical SEO." That traditional definition of that technical SEO is things that pertain to basically crawling and indexing, which in some ways is a limited definition and a definition that sometimes creates a schism in the industry. You have people that gravitate toward a creative content side of things and your people that gravitate towards the technical side of things. This results in some fighting. You have articles. One of the bigger ones that came out was this technical SEO is makeup by Clayburn Griffin on Search Engine Land, which was quite inflammatory. It was making the point that it's not too hard to get technical SEO to a point that is good enough, but content is in some ways more difficult to achieve. I don't disregard that. I don't think it's wrong. I think the reason why people come to that conclusion is because they are defining technical SEO wrong. In my conference, we had speaker the first year, Russ Jones from Moz. He had a definition for what technical SEO is. I don't have the quote right in front of me, but I'll summarize it as, "The application of a technical skill set to other facets of SEO." Clearly, this definition encapsulates a whole lot more. I posit even further that there are four types of technical SEO within that. The first one is what I called checklist technical SEO. This is things that pertain to crawling and indexing but are automatable. There are tools that can help get you there. In some ways, you can completely automate the task. There's general technical SEO which, again, are things that pertain to crawling and indexing, but they're little higher skill, less automatable. For instance, finding a bug in the CNS that is hindering crawling. That would be an example of a general technical SEO versus checklist technical SEO, which would be checking the box. Does this web page have a canonical peg that's properly formatted? The third bucket is what I call blurry lines, technical SEO. There are series of jobs that often fall to us as SEO practitioners. They're somewhat technical, but they're not necessarily meant to be the job of the SEO. I could easily fall to someone who works in content web development. I'm talking about things like page speed optimization, web performance optimization, advanced analytics implementation. Again, things that fall with a SEO practitioner but aren't necessarily a SEO and they're quite technical in nature sometimes. The last bucket, which I focused most of my presentation on, which was what I call advanced applied technical SEO. This is really the application of those technical skill sets to all areas of SEO. I went through a series of examples of how you could write a computer program to do a natural language processing analysis to enhance on-page copy. Doing on-page SEO is not inherently a technical SEO task. When you start applying concepts like data science and other areas of engineering and these technical skill sets, it could be a technical SEO task. I went through the gamut. I went through link building, how you can automate things with Wayback Machine and the Moz API and pull insights for content variation and apply machine learning, and when you start to look at technical SEO this way as being a source of talent and skills applied to all areas of technical SEO that it becomes much more important and certainly as a makeup. Peter: All right. That was excellent, especially the last point of the three I think is very important for people. Every SEO should obviously, from what we had in your presentations. be a bit of a programmer. The main question usually is how much of a programmer should I be? Where should I go and how much should I learn to be a great SEO? Paul: I would say this. There are some clear advantages to knowing some programming. By all means, I don't think it's necessary to be an expert programmer. Working an SEO, I do think it will help you if you are. What I do advocate for is understanding computer programming a little bit, understanding the underlying logic, being able to write very, very simple programs. There's clear advantages to having that as a skill. One is that you'll understand how all the puzzle pieces fit together. When you're working with an engineering team or a developer on a website, you understand where they're coming from. You could communicate to them better. They'll have more respect for you. They're more likely to take you seriously. You'll make better suggestions and you'll be able to do some more of these more sophisticated things. Furthermore, getting these very, very basic skill sets is not that challenging. There's a million in one places to learn this online and, honestly, get the basics done in probably a 30-minute YouTube video. That's my position. Peter: Of course. A lot of the things, you can just program with Google Docs and Google Sheets with a bit more of a technical knowledge that you need to go and check all the boxes in [unintelligible 00:14:46] to do your technical audit. Technical SEO is usually seen as something that is really important with big websites, especially e-commerce websites that have millions of URLs where crawl budget is important, et cetera. How important do you see a technical SEO for companies that have smaller websites, especially for B2B companies? Paul: Well, I think it's quite logical when you look at it from a larger website perspective. You have all sorts of crawling and indexing issues that can emerge due to scale. When you look at that broader definition that I presented in my MozCon presentation of being the application of technical things in other ways, I think it's quite applicable to small pages. If you're writing a better web page, whether you have five pages on your site or a hundred or 10,000 or a million, being able to enhance what you're doing there, for instance, it doesn't matter how many pages you have. You're doing better work. Peter: All right. Can you give us a couple of places where people can go and learn technical SEO? Of course, one of them is your website Search Wilderness. The subreddit, big SEO. What are the other places? Paul: You can check out my MozCon presentation on SlideShare. My blog searchwilderness.com is littered with examples. There is an upcoming Whiteboard Friday on Moz where I talk a little bit about this topic. Lastly, I've mentioned my conference. My conference is free. We only have a limited space in person, but we make everything available online to these streams and all past recordings are also available. Check out that. Peter: All right. This is our 17-minute mark and we should be wrapping it up. Paul, tell us where can people find you and what are your future conference plans so that people can come and listen to your presentations. Paul: Yes. My personal blog is searchwilderness.com. The agency I work for is Catalyst. It's catalystdigital.com. My twitter account is by fighto, F-I-G-H-T-O. I'm posting there all the time. In terms of conferences, I am speaking at UnGagged in Los Angeles in November. In Europe, I am speaking at SMX Advanced Europe in Berlin and We Love SEO in Paris. They're both end of September and beginning of October. Peter: All right. A couple of times, you're coming to Europe. Well, my next task is to go and check out all of the presentations or recordings that you have from your conference. I must say I haven't really heard about your conference in the past. I'm from Europe, you're from up there, so it's a big place. That's it. Thank you very much for being on the podcast and I hope to see you around. Paul: Yes, it's my pleasure.

Me "Paul how do you feel about lies?"Paul "Well, lying isn't great. Sometimes a necessary evil. But it will not progress you or the other individual."Me "Thanks Paul. That was perfect."Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/WORDSpodcast?alert=2)

Vanessa Cabrera was let go of her corporate job, only to find out she was pregnant with her first child and within the same week became a single parent - what a way to start your own business. Her passion, hustle and good fortune of finding a great strategic partner gave her the base to rapidly grow. In this podcast Vanessa shares rich insights into social media which every corporate escapee should pay attention to.   There were lots of great takeaways in the episode, so grab that pen and notepad, and enjoy! Why is it important to focus on one or two key platforms for social media Why you should be growing your email list at the same time as growing social Why Instagram stories are so powerful How you get more speaking gigs by applying two simple but rarely used actions Why is it important to have multiple streams of income How to build your list from LinkedIn connections What are the best performing lead magnets/opt-ins? The value of day blocking   Important Links & Mentions From This Episode: Vanessa's LinkedIn profile Vanessa on Twitter Vanessa’s Website Top 10 Ways to Grow Your List & Audience Acuity St. Jude Children's Research Hospital Constant Contact Leadpages WebinarNinja Amy Porterfield Podcast   EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION: Announcer: Are you a corporate escapee and wasting valuable time attempting to figure challenges out on your own? Well, this podcast is for you. We bring you firsthand experiences of guests going through many of the struggles you face each and every day. We get real with no corporate BS, and now over to your host, Paul Higgins. Paul: Hello and welcome to corporate escapees, the podcast that takes you behind the scene of people who are successfully running their own businesses, hearing their war stories and motivations for making the jump from a corporate gig. I'm your host, Paul Higgins, and our guest today is someone who after years of working in corporate, met the perfect storm when she first started her new business, she found out she was pregnant and also her partner left her within a week, leaving her as a single mom with a new business. She talks about how she hustled her way through this. It was really inspiring. Also, she gives some really rich insights into email marketing and also social media marketing. So what I'll do now is hand you over to Vanessa Cabrera, welcome Vanessa Cabrera to the corporate escapees podcast. Brought to you by Build Live Give. So Vanessa, we're going to get to know lots about you today, but why don't we start with something your family and friends would know about you that we wouldn't. Vanessa: Oh my gosh. Okay. You hit me with a good one. All right. So let me see. I'll give you the scoop. Something funny that my friends, my close friends and family know about me that maybe others don't. Is that um, I'm. My last name is Cabrera. So I am Latina, but I oftentimes when I'm in a group of Latinos I oftentimes kind of like pretend not to understand Spanish, just to see if they're talking smack about me. True Story. Yeah. Paul: Very funny, very funny. And uh, have you ever had that situation where they were talking about you? Vanessa: I have, I have busted some. Let's just be real. Like girls can be catty. Okay. And women, we're no different. So yes, I have busted some, some people have called them out, some people I didn't. Um, but yeah, that's just something like funny I do. Paul: Yeah look I definitely, when we travel, especially at Italy, my wife's family's background is Italian, so she can't really speak it, but she can certainly understand it. And one day we've heard very, very entertaining conversations, especially when it comes to the local prices versus tourist price. It's like, hang on, I've just charged us three times the average. Vanessa: Yes Exactly, exactly. So you know what I'm talking about. Exactly. Paul: Brilliant. So what don't you tell us a little bit about your corporate escapee story? Vanessa: Yeah. Okay. So I, um, my background has been in marketing. I've been in marketing my whole career and as soon as I got out of college I was very blessed to be a marketing and communications manager for a trade association that represented the out of home entertainment industry. So think like Pacman, dartboards, jukeboxes, that kind of thing. Um, and so I loved it, loved every minute of it, and I'll be honest with you and your audience, it was, I'm second generation to that industry. So my dad totally hooked me up with that job straight out of college. And when I say Pacman paid for my college, it's true. My father's owed Pacman for like 30 years, so I loved it, loved every minute of it. Um, I was there for 10 years and was responsible for all their marketing, their website, events. I launched their email marketing program, which is when I graduated from college social media wasn't a part of what wasn't even in existence and totally dating myself, but email was launching. So that's where I really started was with email marketing. And from there I went to, um, after 10 years I loved it, but I needed something different. I needed a challenge and to be honest with you, Paul, I needed to make more money. So the gambling industry came into Chicago, which is where I'm from and let's just say we call gambling like amusements rich cousin, let's say slot machines are making much more money than Pacman is, right. So, so I got everything I wish for. I got a challenge. I got a ton more money and be careful what you wish for because I hated every minute of it. I went from loving my job to, you know, having the Sunday night blues to dreading Monday morning, and it was basically because it was a good old boys club. It was a very male-dominated industry. Right. And to be just honest with you, they just treated me not very well. They treated me like a secretary who, you know, a little girl that liked to play on Facebook, never really took me seriously, even though I was hired to be their marketing person, they treated me like a secretary. So I was like getting coffee and it just, there was other bad, bad stories that I won't even get into, but you could just imagine, you know, in a very male-dominated industry like gambling, like where really all the deals go down. It's not necessarily always in a boardroom. Right. So I was planning my escape and every night I would go home and I would work on my website and all that because I knew what I knew was valuable. I was, since the association days, people were always asking me, Vanessa, how are you doing this? How are you sending out these emails? How did you grow the Facebook page so quickly? You know, things like that. So I knew in the back of my mind that that's what I knew was valuable and so I was planning my escape, but unfortunately or fortunately the slot machine that they have for the marketplace was not the right product and I knew that. So I lost my job and about a week later I found out that I was pregnant and about a week after that, I found out that I was going to be a single mom, so my world got turned upside down within three weeks time. And I was like, how did this happen to me? Right. I did everything right, right. I went to school, I studied hard. You know, I, I'm, I'm a good worker. I pay my taxes, like, you know, all this stuff that we're supposed to do. And here I was, you know, jobless, pregnant and alone. So I don't know what to tell you, Paul. I just knew in my gut literally and figuratively, that this was gonna work. And so I didn't even touch my resume, I don't know what came over me. I'm like, you know, what, if I don't start my own business now, it's never gonna happen. So I did. I just put one foot in front of the other and just really worked my ass off for nine months straight. Obviously, I can't go out party. So I say I stayed home and continue to work on my website and you know, would speak in front of anybody who would listen. And it was just like really hustle and go time. So that's how I escaped. Paul: That's an amazing, amazing story. And, and what was it harder or easier than you expected when you, when you did finally start your own business? Vanessa: In the beginning, I think it was just, if it was somewhat easy just because I knew what I was doing when it came to marketing per se, right? Like you have to build an audience and you'd have to get your social media channels up and you know, all those things. So I think I was just in such a grind for nine months and I was like, okay, this is how I get clients. So, you know, when it's fear-based or the fact where I cannot fail, it's not just about me, it's now about my son. Um, it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be probably that first year. But to be honest with you, Paul, I was such in hustle mode because I couldn't fail. Um, that it came relatively easy to me. But that was only year one. Okay. And entrepreneurship. And now I'm, I'm proud to say I'm now in year six. I'm coming in and my sixth year, um, and it's, uh, you know, and I have a thriving consulting business. I have a waiting list of clients wanting to work with me. But if you would've told me this six years ago, I've been like, you're crazy. So it was a little easier for that first year. But again, for me specifically it was just because I knew what I had to do and I just kept pushing and grinding. But it wasn't always easy. Like, I had never worked this hard in my life. Now in your six, it's really a grind now. I love it because I love what I do, so I'm extremely blessed, but it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work to, to sustain the business. Paul: Yeah and with you know giving birth, etcetera. How did that transition occur? Did your clients stay with you or did that sort of interrupt the business? Vanessa: So I was planning ahead. I knew I would take two months off. Um, and to be honest with your audience, your listeners, when I was let go, I was a little saver. So I did have money in the bank. I thought I was always a little saver. Um, so for those who are wanting to escape, this is one piece of advice I would say save every dime you possibly can because you're going to need it because even though I saved, you know, that money goes quick. So I knew that I was going to take two months off after my son was born. Um, and like I said, I just kept grinding. I mean, there's pictures of me where I'm like very pregnant and you know, doing a seminar about email marketing back in the day. So it was just about getting, you know, building that list and getting in front of as many people as I could before I became, you know, a mom. Paul: Great. And what sort of help did you get along the way? Vanessa: So, uh, my, my email service provider tool, the tool I use to send out my emails is constant contact and so I have been a constant contact customer since 2001. I'm totally dating myself. So I've been in email marketing a very long time. Um, and so there was always local seminars about email marketing and social media and I would always go to them on behalf of the association. WelI got very chummy with the speaker and he was the first person I turned to when I lost my job. I'm like, okay, this is what I'm planning to do. And he said, Hey, do you know that there's a partners program that constant contact has? And I'm like, what? He's like, you'd be perfect for it. So it just so happens, right, everything happens for a reason. Um, the week I found out I was going to be let go the, within two weeks there was the first constant contact partners conference that was gonna be held in Boston. So I booked my ticket. It was the first plane business plane ticket I ever bought with my own money since that. Before then it was always, you know, my, my company paid for it. So I was like, Whoa, that's a big wake up call. I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't expense this. Right. So I went there and I'd say that was a huge help because they then helped me get some speaking gigs. Um, obviously I was telling constant contact that would, that's like the call to action at the end of the seminars. But to be honest with you, Paul, it's happened so organically because I was doing that anyways. Like I said, back from the association days when I first got our first email campaign where no one saw that had seen something like that before, like our board of directors and our members called me and was like, what is this? So, so I was already doing that. There are like, what, what is this? Oh, it's constant contact and I would just tell them what I was doing and how I did it. That's pretty much the monster help and I really got that really helped me in the beginning with partnering. Yeah, partnering with constant contact. Paul: Excellent. And we'll move now into the build section. So when someone says to you today, Vanessa, what do you do? How do you answer that? Vanessa: So, um, my go-to answer is I'm an online marketing consultant and I help small business owners, particularly women entrepreneurs. That kind of happened organically too, and it's probably because of my story and the style that I teach, but I helped them put together an online marketing plan. I see so many small businesses, solopreneurs and things like that on social media, but they're just posting, just to post. There's no real strategy on how to use these tools that are literally at our fingertips on how to sell, basically sell their products, sell their services. So that's, um, that's what I do. Paul: Great. And what do you know about coming up with social media plans that a few others don't? Vanessa: No, I think when I run into with all the clients I've had the pleasure of working with is that they, there's, there's so many options out there with social media that it gets overwhelming, right? It gets overwhelming for them and there's no plan. So I just like to really simplify marketing because it can be so overly complicated and if you just pick one or two social media platforms to focus on and master those because one of the things I've seen is that everyone's on every single social media platform on the planet, right? Like I have a strategy session with clients and I'm like, okay, tell me, you know where you live online. And so they're like, okay. So we have a Facebook page, we have a Facebook group, we have a LinkedIn profile, we have a LinkedIn business page where on twitter we have a YouTube channel and we are now on Instagram. Okay. How many of those can you sufficiently run effectively and putting out killer content? You can't. There's no. Unless you have a team. And I'm talking about like you know, small business owners that they're doing their own marketing. There's just no way. Right? So my first advice would be just to focus on one or two social media platforms that A, your target market is hanging out and B, that you actually enjoy. I think that's like a big myth that people think they have to be on twitter. Well if you hate twitter, right? And you know, then you have to be on there. Your audience is going to know they can smell the BS when someone doesn't like what they're doing. So I would say just to one or two social media channels, master those. And what I mean by master is that you actually bring in money with that you have a system that is actually bringing you clients and customers and then move onto another one. Paul: Look it's a great point. And I think, um, know let's use me as an example. So, you know, corporate escapees just like you is my key target audience and know that they're probably in all channels like you said, but um, if you were advising me which channels I should focus on, which, which are the key social media channels you would recommend? Vanessa: So my first question would be would be, what is your target audience? Paul: My target audience is probably slightly more male than female, but between 40 and 50 and you know, uh, either have left like you because of, you know, we'll let go. Um, because of something though, there was maybe a redundancy involved or they've just had enough and they want to spend more time with their family. So similar to you spend more time with your family and really being in control. Uh, so that's. Yeah. So they've all had a corporate background and now they're effectively running their own business. Vanessa: Yeah. So I would say just based off of that, that I, if I were you, I would stick to Linkedin, um, because when people are looking for an escape or looking for new jobs or things like that, they generally tend to go to LinkedIn if they're corporate backgrounds. And I've met several people who have seen my story and connected with me on LinkedIn. So I would focus on LinkedIn. For you, Paul, and then as well as your podcast. Paul: Great. Well, I'm glad you said that because I, uh, definitely because, you know, I had a facebook group, I had Instagram, I was the classic where I had everything. There's so many people listening right now are probably thinking, Oh gee, I'm like that as well to spread too thin. And they doubled down on LinkedIn. And I think with LinkedIn where you can also retweet, I think, you know, you don't have to that, that's quite easy. So look, that's great advice. And I really, you know, I know so many times in our community when people do double down, they get such a better improvement of being spread too thin. And, you know, other than being spread too thin, what are some of the other classic, um, mistakes that you see people make on social media? Vanessa: Well, I'd say using social media, you know, again, just to keep it simple is that, you know, it's phenomenal that we have all our social media channels. However, really what we want to use social media for is lead generating. That's it when you, when it comes down to it. Okay. And so, um, when you're first getting started or even if it's your third or fourth year in business is my advice is that you have to have an audience to sell to, right? I mean, I know it sounds, but like people get so focused on, you know, the numbers and the followers and you know, all of that where there needs to be some sort of system in place where they're continuing to grow their audience and their email list at the same time. So they actually have someone to sell stuff to you. I can't tell you how many times I have these phenomenal entrepreneurs and you know, they get a little bit disappointed because, you know, they only had about 10 people registered for the Webinar or whatnot. And then I asked them, okay, how big is your email list? And they say maybe 40 or 50, and then I'm like, okay, well how are we generating more people into that list? And they're like, well, I'm not. And so I'm like, okay, well let's just do the math. Right. So I would say like just a commonality is to use social media as a way to generate leads and by leads I mean to grow your email list at the same time. Paul: Yeah great. And we've got so many people and probably the people listening right now and say, look, you know, I've got really good connections based in LinkedIn, but I don't particularly own that and I have, I haven't converted that into my list. So what are some of the key tips you've got for getting people from LinkedIn into your list? Vanessa: Yeah. So nowadays it's all about content and providing real value to people to connect them with your expertise. Right? So you need to have some sort of opt-in, opt-in, Freebie or you know, a giveaway in exchange for their email address. Right. So you no longer can say join our newsletter, right? Just click here to join our newsletter. This is 2018. Okay. So you have to give them some sort of value in exchange for their email address. So that's it. Like a guide or a video tutorial or you know, whatever the case may be that you're an expert in. And then once you create that often right, that guide and set up your email automation, right, set up that welcome funnel. Then you'd have to put it out in the universe. Right. I've had so many clients where they have all this, but I'm like, well how many times do you post about it? And I'm like, oh well I posted about a couple months ago. Okay, well you've had new followers since then. So I'd say like post about your options and your freebies on a regular basis on LinkedIn, you know. Paul: Yeah. And just on the opt-in, is there any particular format that's working better on LinkedIn at the moment than others? Like, you know, is it video, is it a pdf, is for infographic? What's, what are you sort of seeing trending in your clients? Vanessa: Yeah. So the, I think the format, you know, you kind of have to test to know your audience on what format they like to get content from you, you know, different strokes for different folks. So, um, but one of the things that's really easy to do and, and people love to get because it's really quick like the opt-in to me should be in what I teach often actually do a whole webinar about this, but often she'd be like a snackable treat, right? That you're helping them with one problem. Okay. One problem that you can help them with. So, um, so for example, I did a guide last year for Facebook lives and I did a checklist like what to do before, during and after your live streams to prepare them. So checklists really simple to do. They're really easy to create and they're snackable, meaning like your audience can literally, you know, just kind of review it. And it won't take very long because our attention span is tiny, right? And move on. So I would say, I don't know if there's a particular format that does better than the other, just as long as you're opt-in, your Freebie, your guide is banging. I mean like don't have usher opt-in because I've had other clients that say, Oh yeah, I can just use a guide that I did last year or a couple of years ago. Your content is what's going to separate you from everybody else. So my advice is that when you create an opt-in and say someone comes back and say, wow, Vanessa, I would've paid for that information. You got yourself killer opt in. And it doesn't matter if it's a Webinar or a checklist or a guide. So long as that, that content is phenomenal and really helped them. That's what's gonna separate you. Paul: And your ideal clients. Who Do you love working with? Vanessa: Um, I mean, like I've, I worked with a lot of Solopreneurs. I work with a lot of women entrepreneurs, a lot of consultants, a lot of coaches. Um, I do have some male clients too. I don't discriminate guys. It's just, like I said, it just happened kind of organically as I, as I started to speak more and more, I'm in front of people. The women entrepreneur just naturally gravitated towards me. Maybe because I'm a single mom, maybe because you know, I had enough balls to jump and they're just saying how I did it. I don't, you know, I, I think that's the connection, the human connection with other women entrepreneurs have to me that, you know, if I can do it, you know, having lost my job newly pregnant completely alone and I did it anyways, then anybody can do it. Paul: And you know, you've had, like you said, an amazing journey over the six years. What is the future? You know, what's, what's your prediction for the next three years? Vanessa: Oh Gosh, I'd be a rockstar. Right? And I can retire and in Bali I'll come visit you in Australia. That's so. No, so I'm, I'm a professional speaker. I'm proud to say now that I actually get paid to speak where back in the day I drove two hours to speak to like two people when I was about six months pregnant. So I did the grind, um, so I would like to do like just more speaking gigs, I'm land more national conferences because, you know, this is the virtual world and obviously you and I love it, right. Um, but you know, every once in a while I like to hang out with the three dimensional people and that human interaction which will never be replaced. Um, so I say maybe from three years from now that you know, I land some bigger stages, maybe social media marketing world. I have my eye on that and I'm just traveling the world, you know, I'll go to Australia, Paul. Paul: We got great conferences here. Vanessa: I'm sure. Paul: I'm writing down a couple of names right now then will talk to them. Let's get you down here. Vanessa: Awesome. Love it. Paul: And as far as you know, improving the profitability of your business, what are some key things you've done to improve the profitability over the six years? Vanessa: Oh my gosh. Okay. So one of the things I learned early on was as an entrepreneur is that you have to have multiple streams of income coming in. I know that's kind of seems like one on one, but this is the stuff you learned, right, and during your entrepreneurial journey. So I started off with email marketing because that's what I knew best and then I started, you know, doing people's email campaigns and becoming their email marketing manager for those who didn't have the time to do it, but it was like a step above a virtual assistant. No offense, virtual assistants. I loved them. I would not be where I am without virtual assistants, but they have had an email, um, expert to their emails, but that wasn't enough. So you have to have multiple streams of income. So, you know, I created different ways for people to work with me right now, you know, paid to be a speaker in paid for one on one clients where, you know, I have VIP sessions with individual clients one on one. I have a group consulting program for those who can't afford, right. The one on one attention and I get it. I just launched an instagram membership. It's called the instagram incubator. Um, so where all we do is talk strategies on how to work instagram and like just instagram one on one for businesses who have no clue how to use it and things like that. So that, where I'd say I've learned is just creating different ways on how to help different entrepreneurs and marketers, like different strokes for different folks and in ways that they can afford it. Paul: And as far as you know, the key trends obviously I think there's been a bit of a trend from Facebook to LinkedIn and certainly for B2B. Now seeing that the organic reach that you get on LinkedIn risks as facebook is, is exceptional. But what are you seeing as some of the key trends in the social platforms you they stable at the moment or is you know, there's about to be another major change? Vanessa: Yeah, I think all eyes from just from my own experience as well is that, you know, I think we've all seen and felt that, you know, engagement is down when it comes to facebook business pages, right? I mean, this earlier this year, actually, January of this year, at the beginning, I can't break 2018 is over, but in January remember Zuckerberg himself said, right, he dropped a bomb saying that they weren't going to push out a lot of content from business pages and publishers because he was listening to his customers and his customers which is you and I saying we didn't want to see ads. We didn't want, you know, all the stuff in front of us. We go on facebook to stalk our exes, we go on facebook to socialize, right? So I've definitely seen engagement down from my facebook business page and I think as we all know, facebook has become a pay to play platform. So meaning you have to boost your own content, your own posts for your own followers to see it on your facebook business page. So I think a lot of people, that's why people are turning to instagram because instagram engagement is so much higher than facebook right now. And I think all eyes are on instagram stories. I mean, that feature is a tremendously powerful feature. Um, that businesses are really, really taking advantage of. So I would say for anyone who's interested in instagram to obviously get familiar with the basics, but um, I think my prediction for 2019 is that all eyes are going to be more on instagram stories rather than just posting to instagram. Paul: Brilliant, And what's the key that you get new clients? Vanessa: Speaking. Yeah, I'd say the seminars I do and the webinars that I've been doing. So, you know, they're both online and offline stages. Um, so that's the key way I've been able to land a clients is through my seminars that I do in person and also the webinars that I do online. Paul: Great. And it seems like you did do the hard yards, so you said you started with audiences or two and they'll probably one of them was your family members, right through to where you are now. Um, any, any tips based on your journey that you can give someone that's just at the start of trying to get a speaking gig? Vanessa: Yeah. So, um, take any gig that you can. Okay. This is where I started from, so we, I can only give advice based on where I started from. So in the beginning I took any gig that I could. Reach out to your nearest chambers, you know, find out where your target audience cares, but like, you know, reach. I reached out to chambers, I reached out to women organizations and I would said, hey, I would, I would speak for free. I have an hour seminar, you know, email marketing or I have an hour seminar on how to grow your list or something like that. So I would say buckle down and just hustle and speak for free and speak to as many people as you possibly can. And then my other advice on becoming a speaker is to be nice. Okay. And so this is something that I'm teaching my toddler, but it's 100 percent true. You will not believe the amount of other speaking gigs I got just because I was nice. Meaning like I gave them my presentation way early. I promoted the hell out of their event. I, um, you know, then when I hit the stage as it was my child to go to work, so I presented the best way I could. Um, I stayed and answered questions. I stayed and helped event producer clean up, you know, so she was all by herself. It was 8:00 at night. Everyone had gone and then she was alone cleaning up her event and I stayed and helped her and she was amazed while she had another event the following year we'll guess who she called, you know what I'm saying? So there's just so many speakers out there in my opinion, Paul, and I'm just going to be honest that like their ego is insane. They just go speak, don't answer any questions and leave. And that to me is just an ass move. So I would just say to really stand out is to just help the event producer as much as you possibly can because it's a really big job that they, it is a, it's a lot of work to put an event together and they're doing it and they're literally giving you a stage for you to speak on. The very least that you can do is just help them in any way possible that you can. And I guarantee you, if you do that, word of mouth will spread. Paul: And you mentioned before, about Virtual assistants. Just tell me a little bit about your team. Who helps and supports you? Vanessa: Oh my gosh. Okay. So I have to give a shout out to Jessica. Jessica. I have four different VAs. They're not full time too, so I don't think I'm fancy because I have four. I use them for different times for different things. Um, but right now Jessica is my VA and she is my right hand woman in my instagram membership. So you know, anyone that has a question and it's like a techie question. She goes in and answers it right away because she knows instagram, like the back of her hand and she posts all of my instagram posts for me and things like that. That's one VA use. I'll use another VA here locally. Um, because sometimes when I do these speaking events and I don't have the attendees, right, you need the attendee list to grow your emails to grow your email lists. Sometimes they like give me a stack of business cards. Well, I have another, a VA that, you know, I give her the stack of business cards. She got enters them into my list, sends out, you know, all my followup emails, books, all my strategy sessions with them. She calls them on the phone and says, Hey, what did you think about Vanessa's seminar? You know, did you want to book a strategy session with her? And things like that. So, um, I also have a phenomenal bookkeeper. She's not a VA, but you know, she does my books. And so yeah, you need help. As you get bigger, you get, you're definitely going to need help to free free up time for you to just focus on your content and selling. Paul: Great. And you know, as I said. What are some of the biggest challenges you face today for your business? Vanessa: The biggest challenges I face today. Um, I mean it's always, you know, a financial goals. I always have financial goals and reaching them. I would say that's a challenge, but, you know, sometimes you just don't always reach those. And let's see, financial challenges. I'm not quite sure. I'm like, I'm pretty good where I'm at. I'll be honest with you. It's been a good year, you know, I mean like besides like maybe not getting, um, you know, the 10k stages that I want because I've submitted myself and they said no, not this year, maybe next year. So stuff like that, that's, that's a challenge. Um, I guess maybe just like in general, and I think everybody can kind of attest to this, is just to stand out from all the noise that's out there. You know, that gets into my head too, but I, I, as I tell a lot of my clients where they're like, well, you know, I did a whole facebook live about this in my group and I, it was called facebook envy, right? Where you look at somebody else and they're like, well how did she grow her group? So asked her how did she land that speaking Gig or why didn't you know all that and I call it facebook envy and I struggled with that too. So, um, but you just have to like put your, you know, your blinders on and just focus on your work and don't worry about what other people are doing. Paul: Excellent. Well look, before we go onto the next section, I'd like to mention our YouTube channel called Build Live Give. You get tips to help corporate escapees just like Vanessa to rapidly grow your business. So if you would like to subscribe, just go to build live, give and please, if you love the content and you get value, share it with other corporate escapees as well. So we can all have a great lifestyle and also financial freedom. So the next section is the live section. So tell us about a couple of daily habits that help you be successful. Vanessa. Vanessa: Okay. Um, one of the things I start my day as because I used to like just rush and hurry and start my day and you know, I have to drop off my son and you know, I have a consult and all that. Now I've learned to breathe as soon as I get up and like just lay with my son where we just cuddle in like we talked. That's a big, big start to my day. Um, and that's a regular that I've been doing for the past four months and it's helped me tremendously because I'm like, why the hell am I busting my ass so much if I'm just rushing through these little moments? So that's why I love to kickbox I'm an avid kickboxer so I'm actually working out is super important to me. It's just a way to like, you know, get rid of the beer, I'm a beer chick, work off the beer, work off the stress and like the clutter. Um, so that's definitely important in my life. If it's not on my calendar, Paul, it's not gonna happen, so it's just always on there, you know, Tuesday night kickbox class. Um, so that's a regular. Um, I do. And then one thing that really works for me is just really managing my time. Well, it took a while for me to, to figure that out, but there's so many people say, Vanessa, how are you able to put out so much content or you know, you're everywhere. Well, it's just because I've learned to manage my time, so my calendar I live and die by. If it's not on my calendar, it's not gonna happen. So I'd say those, those three things are really funny. Paul: Great. And do you use the scheduling tool for your calendar? Vanessa: Yes. You talked about on Linkedin, of course. Yeah, I use acuity. Paul: Yeah. Greatl Vanessa: Love it! Paul: Brilliant. And the next section is the give section. So what's a cause or a charity that you're passionate about? Why? Vanessa: Yeah. So, um, I had been giving, um, I've always donated to St. Jude for many. Oh my God, for many, many years now. Um, and it'd be honest, it's just because my mother has, she supported it for so long and you know, it's completely devastating when you talk about, you know, kids who have cancer, um, and so it's just very near and dear. And so the fact that St Jude is an incredible organization that takes care of families and more importantly takes care of these kids who beyond me, medical attention beyond the love and support in the family, don't have to worry about this financially. All they have to do is love and support their children and help them get through these unimaginable treatments. I can't even imagine my son going through something like this. Um, so, uh, so yeah, so my mom has always been to St. Jude and she's all in love with the charity, so I have to. Paul: Well, look, the last section is the action section and I'll just ask you some questions and get some rapid fire responses. So the first one is, what are your top three productivity tips? Vanessa: Top three productivity tips. Okay. Um, I would day block. Okay. So, uh, that's how I get so much done is that instead of like time blocking, where from like nine to 11, I'm going to work on this and the 11 to 12, I actually day block. So like say on Mondays I scheduled no consults. It's specifically just my creative days. Okay. So that's one way I am able to be so creative and so productive is through day blocking. Um, the other thing is scheduling tools like we talked about on your linkedin post that has saved me a monster time. You know, you no longer have to email someone and say, when are you available? Right. I can meet Monday and then that is gone, right. Um, and then the third, uh, productivity is to outsource. Oh yeah. Outsource anything that you don't want to do, you don't want me doing your books. So that was the first thing. Okay. I am not whatever they want. I'm not right brain. I'm left brain, I'm more creative and you don't want me to do numbers. And so that was the first thing I did was hire a bookkeeper and a tax guy because yeah, no, that is not my forte. So outsource. Paul: Great. And what are some favorite apps or software that you use to run your business? Vanessa: Um, obviously constant contact for my emails and my autoresponders. I love lead pages. I've been using lead pages for ever. Um, so I don't have to be, you know, a web designer. They, the templates they have making it look very, very professional. So I love lead pages. And then what's an Oh um, my webinar tool for sure. Um, Webinarninja have used for webinars this year, which is actually probably the number one way I grew my email list this year. So webinar tool. Paul: Brilliant. Then what, what are some podcasts or books that you love and why? Vanessa: Well, one of my favorite podcasts is Amy Porterfield, so I've been listening to her since day one. She actually is the one that pushed me, to be honest with you, to start my own business when I was planning my escape at the end of my nine to five Gig, I would, um, I, I think she's was, hers was the first Webinar I actually took and was like, I could do this. I could teach this. I think so, yeah. So I'm, I'm a big fan of, but Amy Porterfield's podcast. Paul: Brilliant. So what's some parting advice you'd love to leave people listening now? Vanessa: You know, I would just say, you know, if you're planning on escaping again, save every dime that you can for sure now. And I mean like, you know, live like you would live like a broke entrepreneur. Okay. Like it's worth it. So I would say save every dime that you can. And I know it's scary. The Lord knows, I know it's scary. Um, but life is just too damn short not to love what you do and you know, regret is going to be a son of a b****. Just, you know, picture yourself at like 80 or 90 where, you know, it's kind of just too late to think about starting that Gig or I wish I would have quit my job back then because I was just so miserable. And if and when you are miserable in your life, I think about it. We spend the majority of our life at our job doing, you know, are working and so to be in a miserable job that has got to affect your health, that has got to affect your, your family and I just, and I know it's, you know, maybe it's the pay or the insurance, you know, that you need or things like that. But I really believe that we all have something very, very unique to offer every single person and you just don't know where it'll take you after you jump. So like I said, if I can certainly do it, uh, I think anybody can do. Paul: Oh, that's great advice. And it was such a lovely interview, Vanessa, like you've given so much value. I've once again, filled my page of notes. So we'll have all the comments, all the links, etcetera in the show notes, and also Vanessa has been very kind to give us a brilliant gift as well. So if you go to Vanessa-Cabrera and I'll put that in the show notes, dot com forward slash top 10 ways. There's a brilliant, um, gift that Vanessa's given on why is it you can grow your audience and you know, what I love about you, Vanessa, is that you've got lots of practical experience and obviously started in email marketing, then you've made the shift into social. But I also love what was on your website where you've got, you know, um, first you help people understand it. Second, you help people make it easy to implement. The third thing is you get results and I just liked the fact that you are making it simple in a world where social media can be so complex, but brilliant having you on the show today and thanks for coming. Vanessa: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Paul. This is awesome. Paul: All right, brilliant. Thanks Vanessa. Bye. Vanessa: Bye. Paul: That was a really wonderful interview with Vanessa. My top three take outs are, first one is the power of instagram stories, so in 2019, it's where it's at and what I love that she said off off camera that you can actually do both personal and business with instagram stories. The second is to always be nice and professional, which helps you get additional gigs, so if you're a speaker or that for anything for that matter, people will always bring back the people that are professional and nice. Leave your ego at the door and the last one is around checklists to get people from your linkedin connections onto your email list. So they're my top three take outs. I'd love to hear yours. So why don't you email me at Paul@buildlivegive.com where I'd love to get your insights from this podcast. Also, if you love this podcast and you know other corporate escapees, please share it with them. Thank you. Announcer: Thank you for listening to the corporate escapees podcast brought to you by Build Live Give. If you would like to join a community of like minded peers, please visit www.buildlivegive.com. Until next time. Thanks for listening and be brave.

Remember when that one was for Paul? Well this one's for us, and we don't care if you like it because it's OURS for US! SO THERE! Wait no I'm so sorry please stay. Please? I'm so sorry.

This is a first time release on YouTube, (previously on Apple Podcasts) of a conversation I had with Dr. Paul Reeve of the University of Utah last year.  I asked if he had anything to do with writing the Gospel Topics Essay (race essay) titled Race and the Priesthood on LDS.org. He was very candid and I think you'll enjoy listening to his answers on these and other topics. https://youtu.be/BcNtNHqRluA GT:  Now I want to ask you another question.  I'm hoping you'll answer.  I've heard rumors, and that's all they are is rumors that you played a role in compiling that essay [Race and the Priesthood].  Do you have any response to that? Paul laughs:  I did help with the essay. Yeah, Yeah. GT:  So was it, can you describe your role? Paul:  Well the Church History Department invited me to write an extended essay. It ended up being about 55 pages long with footnotes and everything like I would produce as an academic essay.  Once they were satisfied with that it was sent up the line, several layers of approval process and then the Church History Department actually boiled down that longer essay to what got posted online so I had no say over what got posted online, what eventually appeared as Race and the Priesthood, but it was a condensed version of the longer piece that I produced for them. I asked his opinions on how these race lessons of the past apply to today's situations. It's one of my favorite parts of the interview.  I also asked if there were parallels between the black ban and the new gay ban. Paul:  Well I guess there are ways in which I could see them as similar and ways in which I think they're distinct.  The similarities could be that, is this simply the sort of cultural context, right?  That is somehow seeping in, it would be hard to argue that the cultural context of America moving towards legalizing gay marriage didn't impact Mormonism, right?  So it's Mormonism responding to its cultural context the same way that Mormonism seemed to respond to the racial context in the 19th century, so a parallel there, but I think also important distinctions.   Dr. Paul Reeve discusssed the Race and Priesthood essay at LDS.org I asked Paul how he felt about the Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing at Pres. Trump's inauguration.  Don't forget to check out our previous conversations with Paul! 008: Dating the LDS Temple and Priesthood Ban (Reeve) 007: Becoming a Fanboy of Orson Pratt (Dr Reeve discusses the Apostle) 006: The Black Mormon Scandals – Reeve on events inspiring the LDS priesthood/temple ban 005: How did Joseph Smith Deal with Muslims?  (and Chinese and Indians?) 004: How did Others Deal with Slavery?  Dr. Paul Reeve tells why Mormons were persecuted 003: How Mormons Became a Racial Category Check out our conversation…. [paypal-donation]

[paypal-donation] Happy New Year. I'm your host of Gospel Tangents, Rick Bennett.  We're counting down the Top 20 Moments that were most surprising moments in 2017 here on Gospel Tangents.  I've learned a lot over this year. 1. Let's start with some scoops!  Paul Reeve told me he participated in writing the Gospel Topics Essay on Race and the Priesthood at LDS.org.  Unfortunately, I had some camera problems, but the audio worked just fine.  This is still my most downloaded moment of 2017! GT:  Very good.  Now I want to ask you another question.  I'm hoping you'll answer.  I've heard rumors, and that's all they are is rumors that you played a role in compiling that essay [Race and the Priesthood].  Do you have any response to that? Paul laughs:  I did help with the essay. Yeah, Yeah. GT:  So was it, can you describe your role? Paul:  Well the Church History Department invited me to write an extended essay. It ended up being about 55 pages long with footnotes and everything like I would produce as an academic essay.  Once they were satisfied with that it was sent up the line, several layers of approval process and then the Church History Department actually boiled down that longer essay to what got posted online so I had no say over what got posted online, what eventually appeared as Race and the Priesthood, but it was a condensed version of the longer piece that I produced for them. 2.  What other scholars participated? I asked a similar question to Dr. Brian Hales regarding the polygamy essays Brian:  Yeah, I gave them a very long essay, and then maybe a couple of years later they sent me the Gospel Topics essay that was similar to what we have today.  I went through it all.  I think we had one other meeting in the interim, maybe two.  I just went through and made recommendations on it, and every recommendation I recommended in the text they accepted.  There were some outside comments that I made some recommendations they did not, but they were very generous to allow me to do that.  They do quote from the trilogy a number of times and an article I wrote was also referenced. GT:  So that took a few years for that whole process to go through? Brian:  Yeah, you know originally they were thinking of doing long answer, medium answer, short answer.  That was the first thing that was asked of me on the topic of polyandry.  Then I just sent them some general stuff, and I don't know how many iterations it went through there.  Again I was excited to contribute to that.  I only looked at the Nauvoo material.  I know they had Kathryn Daines help out, and Kathleen Flake I think also are the other two that did the input on plural marriage.  I hope they don't mind me saying that but they wanted outsiders to critique it. 3.  That wasn't all. Ugo Perego was involved in the Book of Mormon essay Ugo:  Yeah I helped writing that… it wasn't only me.  I actually took the lead on the project of writing that.  I wrote a much more extensive paper which has been published as well in the Interpreter, the online Mormon journal.  It's about 40 pages long and then from that the Church condensed it down to what is the in Gospel Topics today. 4.  Since we're on the Book of Mormon, we had some interesting conversations. David Rosenvall had an interesting theory on how Asian DNA ended up in America. David:  our hypothesis is that you have at least everyone that came over with Jared and his brother who dispersed for thousands of years, and if you assume that there are some that didn't come across the ocean who were also related to them, who may have been a big part of how Asia became, there's a good chance that the people of North America and the people of Asia are going to have the same DNA.  The difference is they used boats to get them across and maybe the Bering Sea but at least the boats according to the Book of Mormon.  So I always say DNA is the best evidence that the Book of Mormon is true because in there is...

What would Banjo Paterson say about the conversion of Paul? Well this episode might have the answer

Sean is away this week travelling the globe, so Paul and Jon call to Hank (@comicpanels on twitter) to fill the void in the podcast and their hearts in Sean's absence. Hank has been enjoying the new Double Fine turn-based tactic game Massive Chalice, being a cowboy out for revenge in Westerado: Double Barreled and trying to kill God in Devil Survivor: Overclocked. Jon has been in the ink playing a bunch of Splatoon between bouts of Stretchmo and streaming games such as Hotel Mario and Super Castlevania. Paul? Well, he's mainly been doing handheld games and finally started the Phoenix Wright games for the first time ever when he hasn't been addicted to The Witcher 3.In news, Ouya is selling to Razer, Hearthstone adds a cool sounding new Tavern Brawl mode while trying to steal your money for new characters, Xbox One gets a price drop, YouTube competes with Twitch and... The Last Guardian might be at E3?!

Aired 10/28/08 The economy is in crisis. Unemployment is rising. Families are hurting. Despite recent drops in oil prices, the days of cheap gas and oil are gone forever. Climate change calls for massive changes in the way we supply and use energy. Today’s guest sees that these crises are connected and believes that together they present an enormous opportunity. VAN JONES, a young, dynamic, charismatic, optimistic, solutions-oriented African American with an Ivy League law degree – boy that sounds familiar -- is the founder and president of GREEN FOR ALL and author of THE GREEN COLLAR ECONOMY A new report just released by the U.S. Conference of Mayors says that we can create over 4 million green jobs if we aggressively shift away from traditional fossil fuels toward alternative energy and a significant improvement in energy efficiency. Another report just released by the Political Economy Research Institute and the Center for American Progress shows that the U.S. can create two million jobs over two years by investing $100 billion in a green economic recovery plan. The report also shows that this investment would create four times more jobs than spending the same amount of money within the oil industry. Green For All and its partners are proposing a Clean Energy Corps that includes a revolving loan fund to finance the ambitious retrofitting of the nation's building stock. An investment of less than $3 billion per year would provide financing and can be expected to create close to 120,000 green jobs a year and 600,000 over five years, while also lowering home heating and electricity bills for homeowners and small businesses. VAN JONES is the founder and president of GREEN FOR ALL, a national advocacy organization based in Oakland, California, committed to building an inclusive, green economy - strong enough to lift millions of people out of poverty. Van also co-founded the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights and Color of Change, both committed to equal justice and opportunity for low-income people and people of color. Van has earned many honors, including the 1998 Reebok International Human Rights Award; the International Ashoka Fellowship; selection as a World Economic Forum “Young Global Leader;” the Rockefeller Foundation “Next Generation Leadership” Fellowship; and Campaign for America’s Future “Paul Well­stone Award 2008.” Van is a Senior Fellow with Center for American Progress. His first book, THE GREEN COLLAR ECONOMY is a New York Times best-seller.