Podcasts about paul yeah

Paul Frazee is the CTO of Bluesky. He previously worked on the Beaker browser and the peer-to-peer social media protocol Secure Scuttlebutt. Paul discusses how Bluesky and ATProto got started, scaling up a social media site, what makes ATProto decentralized, lessons ATProto learned from previous peer-to-peer projects, and the challenges of content moderation. Episode transcript available here. My Bluesky profile. -- Related Links Bluesky ATProtocol ATProto for distributed systems engineers Bluesky and the AT Protocol: Usable Decentralized Social Media Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs) ActivityPub Webfinger Beaker web browser Secure Scuttlebutt -- Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today I am talking to Paul Frazee. He's the current CTO of bluesky, and he previously worked on other decentralized applications like Beaker and Secure Scuttlebutt. [00:00:15] Paul: Thanks for having me. What's bluesky [00:00:16] Jeremy: For people who aren't familiar with bluesky, what is it? [00:00:20] Paul: So bluesky is an open social network, simplest way to put it, designed in particular for high scale. That's kind of one of the big requirements that we had when we were moving into it. and it is really geared towards making sure that the operation of the social network is open amongst multiple different organizations. [00:00:44] So we're one of the operators, but other folks can come in, spin up the software, all the open source software, and essentially have a full node with a full copy of the network active users and have their users join into our network. And they all work functionally as one shared application. [00:01:03] Jeremy: So it, it sounds like it's similar to Twitter but instead of there being one Twitter, there could be any number and there is part of the underlying protocol that allows them to all connect to one another and act as one system. [00:01:21] Paul: That's exactly right. And there's a metaphor we use a lot, which is comparing to the web and search engines, which actually kind of matches really well. Like when you use Bing or Google, you're searching the same web. So on the AT protocol on bluesky, you use bluesky, you use some alternative client or application, all the same, what we're we call it, the atmosphere, all one shared network, [00:01:41] Jeremy: And more than just the, the client. 'cause I think sometimes when people think of a client, they'll think of, I use a web browser. I could use Chrome or Firefox, but ultimately I'm connecting to the same thing. But it's not just people running alternate clients, right? [00:01:57] Paul: Their own full backend to it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. The anchoring point on that being the fire hose of data that runs the entire thing is open as well. And so you start up your own application, you spin up a service that just pipes into that fire hose and taps into all the activity. History of AT Protocol [00:02:18] Jeremy: Talking about this underlying protocol maybe we could start where this all began so people get some context for where this all came from. [00:02:28] Paul: For sure. All right, so let's wind the clock back here in my brain. We started out 2022, right at the beginning of the year. We were formed as a, essentially a consulting company outside of Twitter with a contract with Twitter. And, uh, our goal was to build a protocol that could run, uh, Twitter, much like the way that we just described, which set us up with a couple of pretty specific requirements. [00:02:55] For one, we had to make sure that it could scale. And so that ended up being a really important first requirement. and we wanted to make sure that there was a strong kind of guarantees that the network doesn't ever get captured by any one operator. The idea was that Twitter would become the first, uh, adopter of the technology. [00:03:19] Other applications, other services would begin to take advantage of it and users would be able to smoothly migrate their accounts in between one or the other at any time. Um, and it's really, really anchored in a particular goal of just deconstructing monopolies. Getting rid of those moats that make it so that there's a kind of a lack of competition, uh, between these things. [00:03:44] And making sure that, if there was some kind of reason that you decided you're just not happy with what direction this service has been going, you move over to another one. You're still in touch with all the folks you were in touch with before. You don't lose your data. You don't lose your, your your follows. Those were the kind of initial requirements that we set out with. The team by and large came from, the decentralized web, movement, which is actually a pretty, large community that's been around since, I wanna say around 2012 is when we first kind of started to form. It got really made more specifically into a community somewhere around 2015 or 16, I wanna say. [00:04:23] When the internet archives started to host conferences for us. And so that gave us kind of a meeting point where all started to meet up there's kind of three schools of thought within that movement. There was the blockchain community, the, federation community, and the peer-to-peer community. [00:04:43] And so blockchain, you don't need to explain that one. You got Federation, which was largely ActivityPub Mastodon. And then peer-to-peer was IPFS, DAT protocol, um, secure scuttlebutt. But, those kinds of BitTorrent style of technologies really they were all kind of inspired by that. [00:05:02] So these three different kind of sub communities we're all working, independently on different ways to attack how to make these open applications. How do you get something that's a high scale web application without one corporation being the only operator? When this team came together in 2022, we largely sourced from the peer-to-peer group of the decentralized community. Scaling limitations of peer-to-peer [00:05:30] Paul: Personally, I've been working in the space and on those kinds of technologies for about 10 years at that stage. And, the other folks that were in there, you know, 5-10 each respectively. So we all had a fair amount of time working on that. And we had really kind of hit some of the limitations of doing things entirely using client devices. We were running into challenges about reliability of connections. Punching holes to the individual device is very hard. Synchronizing keys between the devices is very hard. Maintaining strong availability of the data because people's devices are going off and on, things like that. Even when you're using the kind of BitTorrent style of shared distribution, that becomes a challenge. [00:06:15] But probably the worst challenge was quite simply scale. You need to be able to create aggregations of a lot of behavior even when you're trying to model your application as largely peer wise interactions like messaging. You might need an aggregation of accounts that even exist, how do you do notifications reliably? [00:06:37] Things like that. Really challenging. And what I was starting to say to myself by the end of that kind of pure peer-to-peer stent was that it can't be rocket science to do a comment section. You know, like at some point you just ask yourself like, how, how hard are we willing to work to, to make these ideas work? [00:06:56] But, there were some pretty good pieces of tech that did come out of the peer-to-peer world. A lot of it had to do with what I might call a cryptographic structure. things like Merkel trees and advances within Merkel Trees. Ways to take data sets and reduce them down to hashes so that you can then create nice signatures and have signed data sets at rest at larger scales. [00:07:22] And so our basic thought was, well, all right, we got some pretty good tech out of this, but let's drop that requirement that it all run off of devices. And let's get some servers in there. And instead think of the entire network as a peer-to-peer mesh of servers. That's gonna solve your scale problem. [00:07:38] 'cause you can throw big databases at it. It's gonna solve your availability problems, it's gonna solve your device sync problems. But you get a lot of the same properties of being able to move data sets between services. Much like you could move them between devices in the peer-to-peer network without losing their identifiers because you're doing this in direction of, cryptographic identifiers to the current host. [00:08:02] That's what peer-to-peer is always doing. You're taking like a public key or hash and then you're asking the network, Hey, who has this? Well, if you just move that into the server, you get the same thing, that dynamic resolution of who's your active host. So you're getting that portability that we wanted real bad. [00:08:17] And then you're also getting that kind of in meshing of the different services where each of them is producing these data sets that they can sink from each other. So take peer-to-peer and apply it to the server stack. And that was our kind of initial thought of like, Hey, you know what? This might work. [00:08:31] This might solve the problems that we have. And a lot of the design fell out from that basic mentality. Crytographic identifiers and domain names [00:08:37] Jeremy: When you talk about these cryptographic identifiers, is the idea that anybody could have data about a person, like a message or a comment, and that could be hosted different places, but you would still know which person that originally came from. Is that, is that the goal there? [00:08:57] Paul: That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. You wanna create identification that supersedes servers, right? So when you think about like, if I'm using Twitter and I wanna know what your posts are, I go to twitter.com/jeremy, right? I'm asking Twitter and your ID is consequently always bound to Twitter. You're always kind of a second class identifier. [00:09:21] We wanted to boost up the user identifier to be kind of a thing freestanding on its own. I wanna just know what Jeremy's posts are. And then once you get into the technical system it'll be designed to figure out, okay, who knows that, who can answer that for you? And we use cryptographic identifiers internally. [00:09:41] So like all the data sets use these kind of long URLs to identify things. But in the application, the user facing part, we used domain names for people. Which I think gives the picture of how this all operates. It really moves the user accounts up into a free standing first class identifier within the system. [00:10:04] And then consequently, any application, whatever application you're using, it's really about whatever data is getting put into your account. And then that just exchanges between any application that anybody else is using. [00:10:14] Jeremy: So in this case, it sounds like the identifier is some long string that, I'm not sure if it's necessarily human readable or not. You're shaking your head no. [00:10:25] Paul: No. [00:10:26] Jeremy: But if you have that string, you know it's for a specific person. And since it's not really human readable, what you do is you put a layer on top of it which in this case is a domain that somebody can use to look up and find the identifier. [00:10:45] Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we just use DNS. Put a TXT record in there, map into that long string, or you could do a .well-known file on a web server if that's more convenient for you. And then the ID that's behind that, the non-human readable one, those are called DIDs which is actually a W3C spec. Those then map to a kind of a certificate. What you call a DID document that kind of confirms the binding by declaring what that domain name should be. So you get this bi-directional binding. And then that certificate also includes signing keys and active servers. So you pull down that certificate and that's how the discovery of the active server happens is through the DID system. What's stored on a PDS [00:11:29] Jeremy: So when you refer to an active server what is that server and what is that server storing? [00:11:35] Paul: It's kinda like a web server, but instead of hosting HTML, it's hosting a bunch of JSON records. Every user has their own document store of JSON documents. It's bucketed into collections. Whenever you're looking up somebody on the network you're gonna get access to that repository of data, jump into a collection. [00:11:58] This collection is their post collection. Get the rkey (Record Key), and then you're pulling out JSON at the end of it, which is just a structured piece of stuff saying here's the CreatedAt, here's the text, here's the type, things like that. One way you could look at the whole system is it's a giant, giant database network. Servers can change, signing keys change, but not DID [00:12:18] Jeremy: So if someone's going to look up someone's identifier, let's say they have the user's domain they have to go to some source, right? To find the user's data. You've mentioned, I think before, the idea that this is decentralized and by default I would, I would picture some kind of centralized resource where I send somebody a domain and then they give me back the identifier and the links to the servers. [00:12:46] So, so how does that work in practice where it actually can be decentralized? [00:12:51] Paul: I mentioned that your DID that non-human readable identifier, and that has that certificate attached to it that lists servers and signing keys and things like that. [00:13:00] So you're just gonna look up inside that DID document what that server is your data repository host. And then you contact that guy and say, all right, I'm told you're hosting this thing. Here's the person I'm looking for, hand over the hand over the data. It's really, you know, pretty straightforward. [00:13:18] The way that gets decentralized is by then to the fact that I could swap out that active server that's in my certificate and probably wanna rotate the signing keys 'cause I've just changed the, you know. I don't want to keep using the same signing keys as I was using previously because I just changed the authority. [00:13:36] So that's the migration change, change the hosting server, change out the signing keys. Somebody that's looking for me now, they're gonna load up my document, my DID document. They're gonna say, okay, new server, new keys. Pull down the data. Looks good, right? Matches up with the DID doc. [00:13:50] So that's how you get that level of portability. But when those changes happen, the DID doesn't change, right? The DID document changes. So there's the level of indirection there and that's pretty important because if you don't have a persistent identifier whenever you're trying to change out servers, all those backlinks are gonna break. [00:14:09] That's the kind of stuff that stops you from being able to do clean migrations on things like web-based services. the only real option is to go out and ask everybody to update their data. And when you're talking about like interactions on the social network, like people replying to each other, there's no chance, right? [00:14:25] Every time somebody moves you're gonna go back and modify all those records. You don't even control all the records from the top down 'cause they're hosted all over the web. So it's just, you can't do it. Generally we call this account portability, that you're kinda like phone number portability that you can change your host, but, so that part's portable, but the ID stays the same. [00:14:45] And keeping that ID the same is the real key to making sure that this can happen without breaking the whole system. [00:14:52] Jeremy: And so it, it sounds like there's the decentralized id, then there's the decentralized ID document that's associated with that points you to where the actual location of your, your data, your posts, your pictures and whatnot. but then you also mentioned that they could change servers. [00:15:13] So let's say somebody changes where their data is, is stored, that would change the servers, I guess, in their document. But [00:15:23] then how do all of these systems. Know okay. I need to change all these references to your old server, to these new servers, [00:15:32] Paul: Yeah. Well, the good news is that you only have to, you, you got the public data set of all the user's activity, and then you have like internal caches of where the current server is. You just gotta update those internal caches when you're trying to contact their server. Um, so it's actually a pretty minimal thing to just like update like, oh, they moved, just start talking to update my, my table, my Redis, that's holding onto that kind of temporary information, put it on ttl, that sort of thing. Most communication won't be between servers, it will be from event streams [00:16:01] Paul: And, honestly, in practice, a fair amount of the system for scalability reasons doesn't necessarily work by servers directly contacting each other. It's actually a little bit more like how, I told you before, I'm gonna use this metaphor a lot, the search engines with the web, right? What we do is we actually end up crawling the repositories that are out in the world and funneling them into event streams like a Kafka. And that allows the entire system to act like a data processing pipeline where you're just tapping into these event streams and then pushing those logs into databases that produce these large scale aggregations. [00:16:47] So a lot of the application behavior ends up working off of these event logs. If I reply to somebody, for instance, I don't necessarily, it's not, my server has to like talk to your server and say, Hey, I'm replying to you. What I do is I just publish a reply in my repository that gets shot out into the event logs, and then these aggregators pick up that the reply got created and just update their database with it. [00:17:11] So it's not that our hosting servers are constantly having to send messages with each other, you actually use these aggregators to pull together the picture of what's happening on the network. [00:17:22] Jeremy: Okay, so like you were saying, it's an event stream model where everybody publishes the events the things that they're doing, whether that's making a new post, making a reply, that's all being posted to this event stream. And then everybody who provides, I'm not sure if instances is the right term, but an implementation of the atmosphere protocol (Authenticated Transfer protocol). [00:17:53] They are listening for all those changes and they don't necessarily have to know that you moved servers because they're just listening for the events and you still have the same identifier. [00:18:10] Paul: Generally speaking. Yeah. 'cause like if you're listening to one of these event streams what you end up looking for is just the signature on it and making sure that the signature matches up. Because you're not actually having to talk to their live server. You're just listening to this relay that's doing this aggregation for you. [00:18:27] But I think actually to kind of give a little more clarity to what you're talking about, it might be a good idea to refocus how we're talking about the system here. I mentioned before that our goal was to make a high scale system, right? We need to handle a lot of data. If you're thinking about this in the way that Mastodon does it, the ActivityPub model, that's actually gonna give you the wrong intuition. Designing the protocol to match distributed systems practices (Event sourcing / Stream processing) [00:18:45] Paul: 'cause we chose a dramatically different system. What we did instead was we picked up, essentially the same practices you're gonna use for a data center, a high scale application data center, and said, all right, how do you tend to build these sorts of things? Well, what you're gonna do is you're gonna have, multiple different services running different purposes. [00:19:04] It gets pretty close to a microservices approach. You're gonna have a set of databases, and then you're going to, generally speaking for high scale, you're gonna have some kind of a kafka, some kind of a event log that you are tossing changes about the state of these databases into. And then you have a bunch of secondary systems that are tapping into the event log and processing that into, the large scale, databases like your search index, your, nice postgres of user profiles. [00:19:35] And that makes sure that you can get each of these different systems to perform really well at their particular task, and then you can detach them in their design. for instance, your primary storage can be just a key value store that scales horizontally. And then on the event log, you, you're using a Kafka that's designed to handle. [00:19:58] Particular semantics of making sure that the messages don't get dropped, that they come through at a particular throughput. And then you're using, for us, we're using like ScyllaDB for the big scale indexes that scales horizontally really well. So it's just different kind of profiles for different pieces. [00:20:13] If you read Martin Kleppman's book, data Intensive applications I think it's called or yeah. A lot of it gets captured there. He talks a lot about this kind of thing and it's sometimes called a kappa architecture is one way this is described, event sourcing is a similar term for it as well. [00:20:30] Stream processing. That's pretty standard practices for how you would build a traditional high scale service. so if you take, take this, this kind of microservice architecture and essentially say, okay, now imagine that each of the services that are a part of your data center could be hosted by anybody, not just within our data center, but outside of our data center as well and should be able to all work together. [00:20:57] Basically how the AT Proto is designed. We were talking about the data repository hosts. Those are just the primary data stores that they hold onto the user keys and they hold onto those JSON records. And then we have another service category we call Relay that just crawls those data repositories and sucks that in that fire hose of data we were talking about that event log. App views pull data from relay and produces indexes and threads [00:21:21] Paul: And then we have what we call app views that sit there and tail the index and tail the log, excuse me, and produce indexes off of it, they're listening to those events and then like, making threads like okay, that guy posted, that guy replied, that guy replied. [00:21:37] That's a thread. They assemble it into that form. So when you're running an application, you're talking to the AppView to read the network, and you're talking to the hosts to write to the network, and each of these different pieces sync up together in this open mesh. So we really took a traditional sort of data center model and just turned it inside out where each piece is a part of the protocol and communicate it with each other and therefore anybody can join into that mesh. [00:22:07] Jeremy: And to just make sure I am tracking the data repository is the data about the user. So it has your decentralized identifier, it has your replies, your posts, And then you have a relay, which is, its responsibility, is to somehow find all of those data repositories and collect them as they happen so that it can publish them to some kind of event stream. [00:22:41] And then you have the AppView which it's receiving messages from the relay as they happen, and then it can have its own store and index that for search. It can collect them in a way so that it can present them onto a UI. That's sort of thing that's the user facing part I suppose. [00:23:00] Paul: Yeah, that's exactly it. And again, it's, it's actually quite similar to how the web works. If you combine together the relay and the app view, you got all these different, you know, the web works where you got all these different websites, they're hosting their stuff, and then the search engine is going around, aggregating all that data and turning it into a search experience. [00:23:19] Totally the same model. It's just being applied to, more varieties of data, like structured data, like posts and, and replies, follows, likes, all that kinda stuff. And then instead of producing a search application at the end. I mean, it does that too, but it also produces a, uh, you know, timelines and threads and, um, people's profiles and stuff like that. [00:23:41] So it's actually a pretty bog standard way of doing, that's one of the models that we've seen work for large scale decentralized systems. And so we're just transposing it onto something that kind of is more focused towards social applications [00:23:58] Jeremy: So I think I'm tracking that the data repository itself, since it has your decentralized identifier and because the data is cryptographically signed, you know, it's from a specific user. I think the part that I am still not quite sure about is the relays. I, I understand if you run all the data repositories, you know where they are, so you know how to collect the data from them. [00:24:22] But if someone's running another system outside of your organization, how do they find, your data repositories? Or do they have to connect to your relay? What's the intention for that? Data hosts request relays to pull their data [00:24:35] Paul: That logic runs, again, really similar to how search engines find out about websites. So there is actually a way for, one of these, data hosts to contact Relay and say, Hey, I exist. You know, go ahead and get my stuff. And then it'll be up to the relay to decide like if they want it or not. [00:24:52] Right now, generally we're just like, yeah, you know, we, we want it. But as you can imagine, as the thing matures and gets to higher scale, there might be some trust kind of things to worry about, you know? So that's kind of the naive operation that currently exists. But over time as the network gets bigger and bigger, it'll probably involve some more traditional kind of spiraling behaviors because as more relays come into the system, each of these hosts, they're not gonna know who to talk to. Relays can bootstrap who they know about by talking to other relays [00:25:22] Paul: You're trying to start a new relay. What they're gonna do is they're going to discover all of the different users that exist in the system by looking at what data they have to start with. Probably involve a little bit of a manual feeding in at first, whenever I'm starting up a relay, like, okay, there's bluesky's relay. [00:25:39] Lemme just pull what they know. And then I go from there. And then anytime you discover a new user you don't have, you're like, oh, I wanna look them up. Pull them into the relay too. Right. So there's a, pretty straightforward, discovery process that you'll just have to bake into a relay to, to make sure you're calling as much the network as possible. ActivityPub federation vs AT Proto [00:25:57] Jeremy: And so I don't think we've defined the term federation, but maybe you could explain what that is and if that is what this is. [00:26:07] Paul: We are so unsure. [00:26:10] Jeremy: Okay. [00:26:11] Paul: Yeah. This has jammed is up pretty bad. Um, because I think everybody can, everybody pretty strongly agrees that ActivityPub is federation, right? and ActivityPub kind of models itself pretty similarly to email in a way, like the metaphors they use is that there's inboxes and outboxes and, and every ActivityPub server they're standing up the full vertical stack. [00:26:37] They set up, the primary hosting, the views of the data that's happening there. the interface for the application, all of it, pretty traditional, like close service, but then they're kind of using the perimeter. they're making that permeable by sending, exchanging, essentially mailing records to each other, right? [00:26:54] That's their kind of logic of how that works. And that's pretty much in line with, I think, what most people think of with Federation. Whereas what we're doing isn't like that we've cut, instead of having a bunch of vertical stacks communicating horizontally with each other, we kind of sliced in the other direction. [00:27:09] We sliced horizontally into, this microservices mesh and have all the different, like a total mix and match of different microservices between different operators. Is that federation? I don't know. Right. we tried to invent a term, didn't really work, you know, At the moment, we just kind of don't worry about it that much, see what happens, see what the world sort of has to say to us about it. [00:27:36] and beyond that, I don't know. [00:27:42] Jeremy: I think people probably are thinking of something like, say, a Mastodon instance when you're, when you're talking about everything being included, The webpage where you view the posts, the Postgres database that's keeping the messages. [00:28:00] And that same instance it's responsible for basically everything. [00:28:06] Paul: mm-Hmm [00:28:06] Jeremy: And I believe what you're saying is that the difference with, the authenticated transfer protocol, is that the [00:28:15] Paul: AT Protocol, Yep. [00:28:17] Jeremy: And the difference there is that you've, at the protocol level, you've split it up into the data itself, which can be validated completely separately from other parts of the system. [00:28:31] You could have the JSON files on your hard drive and somebody else can have that same JSON file and they would know that who the user is and that these are real things that user posted. That's like a separate part. And then the relay component that looks for all these different repositories that has people's data, that can also be its own independent thing where its job is just to output events. [00:29:04] And that can exist just by itself. It doesn't need the application part, the, the user facing part, it can just be this event stream on itself. and that's the part where it sounds like you can make decisions on who to, um, collect data from. I guess you have to agree that somebody can connect to you and get the users from your data repositories. [00:29:32] And likewise, other people that run relays, they also have to agree to let you pull the users from theirs. [00:29:38] Paul: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. [00:29:41] Jeremy: And so I think the Mastodon example makes sense. And, but I wonder if the underlying ActivityPub protocol forces you to use it in that way, in like a whole full application that talks to another full application. [00:29:55] Or is it more like that's just how people tend to use it and it's not necessarily a characteristic of the protocol. [00:30:02] Paul: Yeah, that's a good question actually. so, you know, generally what I would say is pretty core to the protocol is the expectations about how the services interact with each other. So the mailbox metaphor that's used in ActivityPub, that design, if I reply to you, I'll update my, local database with what I did, and then I'll send a message over to your server saying, Hey, by the way, add this reply. [00:30:34] I did this. And that's how they find out about things. That's how they find out about activity outside of their network. that's the part that as long as you're doing ActivityPub, I suspect you're gonna see reliably happening. That's that, I can say for sure that's a pretty tight requirement. [00:30:50] That's ActivityPub. If you wanted to split it up the way we're talking about, you could, I don't know, I don't know if you necessarily would want to. Because I don't know. That's actually, I think I'd have to dig into their stack a little bit more to see how meaningful that would be. I do know that there's some talk of introducing a similar kind of an aggregation method into the ActivityPub world which I believe they're also calling a relay and to make things even more complicated. [00:31:23] And NOSTR has a concept of a relay. So these are three different protocols that are using this term. I think you could do essentially what a search engine does on any of these things. You could go crawling around for the data, pull them into a fire hose, and then, tap into that aggregation to produce, bigger views of the network. [00:31:41] So that principle can certainly apply anywhere. AT Protocol, I think it's a little bit, we, we focused in so hard from that on that from the get go, we focus really hard on making sure that this, the data is, signed at rest. That's why it's called the authenticated transfer protocol. And that's a nice advantage to have when you're running a relay like this because it means that you don't have to trust the relay. [00:32:08] Like generally speaking, when I look at results from Google, you know, I'm trusting pretty well that they're accurately reflecting what's on the website, which is fine. You know, there's, that's not actually a huge risk or anything. But whenever you're trying to build entire applications and you're using somebody else's relay, you could really run into things where they say like, oh, you know what Paul tweeted the other day, you know, I hate dogs. [00:32:28] They're like, no, I didn't. That's a lie, right? You just sneak in Little lies like that over a while, it becomes a problem. So having the signatures on the data is pretty important. You know, if you're gonna be trying to get people to cooperate, uh, you gotta manage the trust model. I know that ActivityPub does have mechanisms for signed records. Issuers with ActivityPub identifiers [00:32:44] Paul: I don't know how deep they go if they could fully replace that, that utility. and then Mastodon ActivityPub, they also use a different identifier system that they're actually taking a look at DIDs um, right now, I don't know what's gonna happen there. We're, we're totally on board to, you know, give any kind of insight that we got working on 'em. [00:33:06] But at, at the moment, they use I think it's WebFinger based identifiers they look like emails. So you got host names in there and those identifiers are being used in the data records. So you don't get that continuous identifier. They actually do have to do that hey, I moved update your records sort of thing. [00:33:28] And that causes it to, I mean, it works like decently well, but not as well as it could. They got us to the point where it moves your profile over and you update all the folks that were following you so they can update their follow records, but your posts, they're not coming right, because that's too far into that mesh of interlinking records. [00:33:48] There's just no chance. So that's kind of the upper limit on that, it's a different set of choices and trade-offs. You're always kind of asking like, how important is the migration? Does that work out? Anyway, now I'm just kind of digging into differences between the two here. Issues with an identifier that changes and updating old records [00:34:07] Jeremy: So you were saying that with ActivityPub, all of the instances need to be notified that you've changed your identifier but then all of the messages that they had already received. They don't point to the new identifier somehow. [00:34:24] Paul: Yeah. You run into basically just the practicalities of actual engineering with that is what happens, right? Because if you imagine you got a multimillion user social network. They got all their posts. Maybe the user has like, let's say a thousand posts and 10,000 likes. And that, activity can range back three years. [00:34:48] Let's say they changed their identifier, and now you need to change the identifier of all those records. If you're in a traditional system that's already a tall order, you're going back and rewriting a ton of indexes, Anytime somebody replied to you, they have these links to your posts, they're now, you've gotta update the identifiers on all of those things. [00:35:11] You could end up with a pretty significant explosion of rewrites that would have to occur. Now that's, that's tough. If you're in a centralized model. If you're in a decentralized one, it's pretty much impossible because you're now, when you notify all the other servers like, Hey, this, this changed. How successful are all of them at actually updating that, that those, those pointers, it's a good chance that there's things are gonna fall out of correctness. that's just a reality of it. And if, so, if you've got a, if you've got a mutable identifier, you're in trouble for migrations. So the DID is meant to keep it permanent and that ends up being the anchoring point. If you lose control of your DID well, that's it. Managing signing keys by server, paper key reset [00:35:52] Paul: Your, your account's done. We took some pretty traditional approaches to that, uh, where the signing keys get managed by your hosting server instead of like trying to, this may seem like really obvious, but if you're from the decentralization community, we spend a lot of time with blockchains, like, Hey, how do we have the users hold onto their keys? [00:36:15] You know, and the tooling on that is getting better for what it's worth. We're starting to see a lot better key pair management in like Apple's ecosystem and Google's ecosystem, but it's still in the range of like, nah, people lose their keys, you know? So having the servers manage those is important. [00:36:33] Then we have ways of exporting paper keys so that you could kind of adversarially migrate if you wanted to. That was in the early spec we wanted to make sure that this portability idea works, that you can always migrate your accounts so you can export a paper key that can override. [00:36:48] And that was how we figured that out. Like, okay, yeah, we don't have to have everything getting signed by keys that are on the user's devices. We just need these master backup keys that can say, you know what? I'm done with that host. No matter what they say, I'm overriding what they, what they think. and that's how we squared that one. [00:37:06] Jeremy: So it seems like one of the big differences with account migration is that with ActivityPub, when you move to another instance, you have to actually change your identifier. [00:37:20] And with the AT protocol you're actually not allowed to ever change that identifier. And maybe what you're changing is just you have say, some kind of a lookup, like you were saying, you could use a domain name to look that up, get a reference to your decentralized identifier, but your decentralized identifier it can never change. [00:37:47] Paul: It, it, it can't change. Yeah. And it shouldn't need to, you know what I mean? It's really a total disaster kind of situation if that happens. So, you know that it's designed to make sure that doesn't happen in the applications. We use these domain name handles to, to identify folks. And you can change those anytime you want because that's really just a user facing thing. [00:38:09] You know, then in practice what you see pretty often is that you may, if you change hosts, if you're using, we, we give some domains to folks, you know, 'cause like not everybody has their own domain. A lot of people do actually, to our surprise, people actually kind of enjoy doing that. But, a lot of folks are just using like paul.bsky.social as their handle. [00:38:29] And so if you migrated off of that, you probably lose that. Like your, so your handle's gonna change, but you're not losing the followers and stuff. 'cause the internal system isn't using paul.bsky.social, it's using that DID and that DID stays the same. Benefits of domain names, trust signal [00:38:42] Jeremy: Yeah. I thought that was interesting about using the domain names, because when you like you have a lot of users, everybody's got their own sub-domain. You could have however many millions of users. Does that become, does that become an issue at some point? [00:39:00] Paul: Well, it's a funny thing. I mean like the number of users, like that's not really a problem 'cause you run into the same kind of namespace crowding problem that any service is gonna have, right? Like if you just take the subdomain part of it, like the name Paul, like yeah, only, you only get to have one paul.bsky.social. [00:39:15] so that part of like, in terms of the number of users, that part's fine I guess. Uh, as fine as ever. where gets more interesting, of course is like, really kind of around the usability questions. For one, it's, it's not exactly the prettiest to always have that B sky.social in there. If we, if we thought we, if we had some kind of solution to that, we would use it. [00:39:35] But like the reality is that, you know, now we're, we've committed to the domain name approach and some folks, you know, they kind of like, ah, that's a little bit ugly. And we're like, yeah that's life. I guess the plus side though is that you can actually use like TLD the domain. It's like on pfrazee.com. [00:39:53] that starts to get more fun. it can actually act as a pretty good trust signal in certain scenarios. for instance, well-known domain names like nytimes.com, strong authentication right there, we don't even need a blue check for it. Uh, similarly the .gov, domain name space is tightly regulated. [00:40:14] So you actually get a really strong signal out of that. Senator Wyden is one of our users and so he's, I think it's wyden.senate.gov and same thing, strong, you know, strong identity signal right there. So that's actually a really nice upside. So that's like positives, negatives. [00:40:32] That trust signal only works so far. If somebody were to make pfrazee.net, then that can be a bit confusing. People may not be paying attention to .com vs .net, so it's not, I don't wanna give the impression that, ah, we've solved blue checks. It's a complicated and multifaceted situation, but, it's got some juice. [00:40:54] It's also kinda nice too, 'cause a lot of folks that are doing social, they're, they've got other stuff that they're trying to promote, you know? I'm pretty sure that, uh, nytimes would love it if you went to their website. And so tying it to their online presence so directly like that is a really nice kind of feature of it. [00:41:15] And tells a I think a good story about what we're trying to do with an open internet where, yeah, everybody has their space on the internet where they can do whatever they want on that. And that's, and then thethese social profiles, it's that presence showing up in a shared space. It's all kind of part of the same thing. [00:41:34] And that that feels like a nice kind of thing to be chasing, you know? And it also kind of speaks well to the naming worked out for us. We chose AT Protocol as a name. You know, we back acronymed our way into that one. 'cause it was a @ simple sort of thing. But like, it actually ended up really reflecting the biggest part of it, which is that it's about putting people's identities at the front, you know, and make kind of promoting everybody from a second class identity that's underneath Twitter or Facebook or something like that. [00:42:03] Up into. Nope, you're freestanding. You exist as a person independently. Which is what a lot of it's about. [00:42:12] Jeremy: Yeah, I think just in general, not necessarily just for bluesky, if people had more of an interest in getting their own domain, that would be pretty cool if people could tie more of that to something you basically own, right? [00:42:29] I mean, I guess you're leasing it from ICANN or whatever, but, [00:42:33] yeah, rather than everybody having an @Gmail, Outlook or whatever they could actually have something unique that they control more or less. [00:42:43] Paul: Yeah. And we, we actually have a little experimental service for registering domain names that we haven't integrated into the app yet because we just kind of wanted to test it out and, and kind of see what that appetite is for folks to register domain names way higher than you'd think we did that early on. [00:43:01] You know, it's funny when you're coming from decentralization is like an activist space, right? Like it's a group of people trying to change how this tech works. And sometimes you're trying to parse between what might come off as a fascination of technologists compared to what people actually care about. [00:43:20] And it varies, you know, the domain name thing to a surprising degree, folks really got into that. We saw people picking that up almost straight away. More so than certainly we ever predicted. And I think that's just 'cause I guess it speaks to something that people really get about the internet at this point. [00:43:39] Which is great. We did a couple of other things that are similar and we saw varied levels of adoption on them. We had similar kinds of user facing, opening up of the system with algorithms and with moderation. And those have both been pretty interesting in and of themselves. Custom feed algorithms [00:43:58] Paul: So with algorithms, what we did was we set that up so that anybody can create a new feed algorithm. And this was kind of one of the big things that you run into whenever you use the app. If you wanted to create a new kind of for you feed you can set up a service somewhere that's gonna tap into that fire hose, right? [00:44:18] And then all it needs to do is serve a JSON endpoint. That's just a list of URLs, but like, here's what should be in that feed. And then the bluesky app will pick that up and, and send that, hydrate in the content of the posts and show that to folks. I wanna say this is a bit of a misleading number and I'll explain why but I think there's about 35,000 of these feeds that have been created. [00:44:42] Now, the reason it's little misleading is that, I mean, not significantly, but it's not everybody went, sat down in their IDE and wrote these things. Essentially one of our users created, actually multiple of our users made little platforms for building these feeds, which is awesome. That's the kinda thing you wanna see because we haven't gotten around to it. [00:44:57] Our app still doesn't give you a way to make these things. But they did. And so lots of, you know, there it is. Cool. Like, one, one person made a kind of a combinatorial logic thing that's like visual almost like scratch, it's like, so if it has this hashtag and includes these users, but not those users, and you're kind of arranging these blocks and that constructs the feed and then probably publish it on your profile and then folks can use it, you know? [00:45:18] And um, so that has been I would say fairly successful. Except, we had one group of hackers do put in a real effort to make a replacement for you feed, like magic algorithmic feed kind of thing. And then they kind of kept up going for a while and then ended up giving up on it. Most of what we see are actually kind of weird niche use cases for feeds. [00:45:44] You get straightforward ones, like content oriented ones like a cat feed, politics feed, things like that. It's great, some of those are using ML detection, so like the cat feed is ML detection, so sometimes you get like a beaver in there, but most of the time it's a cat. And then we got some ones that are kind of a funny, like change in the dynamic of freshness. [00:46:05] So, uh, or or selection criteria, things that you wouldn't normally see. Um, but because they can do whatever they want, you know, they try it out. So like the quiet posters ended up being a pretty successful one. And that one just shows people you're following that don't post that often when they do just those folks. [00:46:21] It ended up being, I use that one all the time because yeah, like they get lost in the noise. So it's like a way to keep up with them. Custom moderation and labeling [00:46:29] Paul: The moderation one, that one's a a real interesting situation. What we did there essentially we wanted to make sure that the moderation system was capable of operating across different apps so that they can share their work, so to speak. [00:46:43] And so we created what we call labeling. And labeling is a metadata layer that exists over the network. Doesn't actually live in the normal data repositories. It uses a completely different synchronization because a lot of these labels are getting produced. It's just one of those things where the engineering characteristics of the labels is just too different from the rest of the system. [00:47:02] So we created a separate synchronization for this, and it's really kind of straightforward. It's, here's a URL and here's a string saying something like NSFW or Gore, or you know, whatever. then those get merged onto the records brought down by the client and then the client, you know, based on the user's preferences. [00:47:21] We'll put like warning screens up, hide it, stuff like that. So yeah, these label streams can then, you know, anybody that's running a moderation service can, you know, are publishing these things and so anybody can subscribe to 'em. And you get that kind of collaborative thing we're always trying to do with this. [00:47:34] And we had some users set up moderation services and so then as an end user you find it, it looks like a profile in the app and you subscribe to it and you configure it and off you go. That one has had probably the least amount of adoption throughout all of 'em. It's you know, moderation. [00:47:53] It's a sticky topic as you can imagine, challenging for folks. These moderation services, they do receive reports, you know, like whenever I'm reporting a post, I choose from all my moderation services who I wanna report this to. what has ended up happening more than being used to actually filter out like subjective stuff is more kind of like either algorithmic systems or what you might call informational. [00:48:21] So the algorithmic ones are like, one of the more popular ones is a thing that's looking for, posts from other social networks. Like this screenshot of a Reddit post or a Twitter post or a Facebook post. Because, which you're kinda like, why, you know, but the thing is some folks just get really tired of seeing screenshots from the other networks. [00:48:40] 'cause often it's like, look what this person said. Can you believe it? You know, it's like, ah. Okay, I've had enough. So one of our users aendra made a moderate service that just runs an ML that detects it, labels it, and then folks that are tired of it, they subscribe to it and they're just hide it, you know? [00:48:57] And so it's like a smart filter kind of thing that they're doing. you know, hypothetically you could do that for things like spiders, you know, like you've got arachniphobia, things like that. that's like a pretty straightforward, kind of automated way of doing it. Which takes a lot of the spice, you know, outta out of running moderation. [00:49:15] So that users have been like, yeah, yeah, okay, we can do that. [00:49:20] Those are user facing ways that we tried to surface the. Decentralized principle, right? And make take advantage of how this whole architecture can have this kind of a pluggability into it. Users can self host now [00:49:33] Paul: But then really at the end of the day, kind of the important core part of it is those pieces we were talking about before, the hosting, the relay and the, the applications themselves, having those be swappable in completely. so we tend to think of those as kind of ranges of infrastructure into application and then into particular client side stuff. [00:49:56] So a lot of folks right now, for instance, they're making their own clients to the application and those clients are able to do customizations, add features, things like that, as you might expect, [00:50:05] but most of them are not running their own backend. They're just using our backend. But at any point, it's right there for you. You know, you can go ahead and, and clone that software and start running the backend. If you wanted to run your own relay, you could go ahead and go all the way to that point. [00:50:19] You know, if you wanna do your own hosting, you can go ahead and do that. Um, it's all there. It's really just kind of a how much effort your project really wants to take. That's the kind of systemically important part. That's the part that makes sure that the overall mission of de monopolizing, social media online, that's where that really gets enforced. [00:50:40] Jeremy: And so someone has their own data repository with their own users and their own relay. they can request that your relay collect the information from their own data repositories. And that's, that's how these connections get made. [00:50:58] Paul: Yeah. And, and we have a fair number of those already. Fair number of, we call those the self hosters right? And we got I wanna say 75 self hoster going right now, which is, you know, love to see that be more, but it's, really the folks that if you're running a service, you probably would end up doing that. [00:51:20] But the folks that are just doing it for themselves, it's kind of the, the nerdiest of the nerds over there doing that. 'cause it doesn't end up showing itself in the, in the application at all. Right? It's totally abstracted away. So it, that, that one's really about like, uh, measure your paranoia kind of thing. [00:51:36] Or if you're just proud of the self-hosting or, or curious, you know, that that's kind of where that sits at the moment. AT Protocol beyond bluesky [00:51:42] Jeremy: We haven't really touched on the fact that there's this underlying protocol and everything we've been discussing has been centered around the bluesky social network where you run your own, instance of the relay and the data repositories with the purpose of talking to bluesky, but the protocol itself is also intended to be used for other uses, right? [00:52:06] Paul: Yeah. It's generic. The data types are set up in a way that anybody can build new data types in the system. there's a couple that have already begun, uh, front page, which is kind of a hacker news clone. There's Smoke Signals, which is a events app. There's Blue Cast, which is like a Twitter spaces, clubhouse kind of thing. [00:52:29] Those are the folks that are kind of willing to trudge into the bleeding edge and deal with some of the rough edges there for pretty I think, obvious reasons. A lot of our work gets focused in on making sure that the bluesky app and that use case is working correctly. [00:52:43] But we are starting to round the corner on getting to a full kind of how to make alternative applications state. If you go to the atproto.com, there's a kind of a introductory tutorial where that actually shows that whole stack and how it's done. So it's getting pretty close. There's a couple of still things that we wanna finish up. [00:53:04] jeremy so in a way you can almost think of it as having an eventually consistent data store on the network, You can make a traditional web application with a relational database, and the source of truth can actually be wherever that data repository is stored on the network. [00:53:24] paul Yeah, that's exactly, it is an eventually consistent system. That's exactly right. The source of truth is there, is their data repo. And that relational database that you might be using, I think the best way to think about it is like secondary indexes or computed indexes, right? They, reflect the source of truth. [00:53:43] Paul: This is getting kind of grandiose. I don't tend to poses in these terms, but it is almost like we're trying to have an OS layer at a protocol level. It's like having your own [00:53:54] Network wide database or network-wide file system, you know, these are the kind of facilities you expect out of a platform like an os And so the hope would be that this ends up getting that usage outside of just the initial social, uh, app, like what we're doing here. [00:54:12] If it doesn't end up working out that way, if this ends up, you know, good for the Twitter style use case, the other one's not so much, and that's fine too. You know, that's, that's our initial goal, but we, we wanted to make sure to build it in a way that like, yeah, there's evolve ability to, it keeps, it, keeps it, make sure that you're getting kinda the most utility you can out of it. Peer-to-peer and the difficulty of federated queries [00:54:30] Jeremy: Yeah, I can see some of the parallels to some of the decentralized stuff that I, I suppose people are still working on, but more on the peer-to-peer side, where the idea was that I can have a network host this data. but, and in this case it's a network of maybe larger providers where they could host a bunch of people's data versus just straight peer to peer where everybody has to have a piece of it. [00:54:57] And it seems like your angle there was really the scalability part. [00:55:02] Paul: It was the scalability part. And there's great work happening in peer-to-peer. There's a lot of advances on it that are still happening. I think really the limiter that you run into is running queries against aggregations of data. Because you can get the network, you know, BitTorrent sort of proved that you can do distributed open horizontal scaling of hosting. [00:55:29] You know, that basic idea of, hey, everybody's got a piece and you sync it from all these different places. We know you can do things like that. What nobody's been able to really get into a good place is running, queries across large data sets. In the model like that, there's been some research in what is, what's called federated queries, which is where you're sending a query to multiple different nodes and asking them to fulfill as much of it as they can and then collating the results back. But it didn't work that well. That's still kind of an open question and until that is in a place where it can like reliably work and at very large scales, you're just gonna need a big database somewhere that does give the properties that you need. You need these big indexes. And once we were pretty sure of that requirement, then from there you start asking, all right, what else about the system [00:56:29] Could we make easier if we just apply some more traditional techniques and merge that in with the peer-to-peer ideas? And so key hosting, that's an obvious one. You know, availability, let's just have a server. It's no big deal. But you're trying to, you're trying to make as much of them dumb as possible. [00:56:47] So that they have that easy replaceability. Moderation challenges [00:56:51] Jeremy: Earlier you were talking a a little bit about the moderation tools that people could build themselves. There was some process where people could label posts and then build their own software to determine what a feed should show per a person. [00:57:07] Paul: Mm-Hmm [00:57:07] Jeremy: But, but I think before that layer for the platform itself, there's a base level of moderation that has to happen. [00:57:19] Paul: yeah. [00:57:20] Jeremy: And I wonder if you could speak to, as the app has grown, how that's handled. [00:57:26] Paul: Yeah. the, you gotta take some requirements in moderation pretty seriously to start. And with decentralization. It sometimes that gets a little bit dropped. You need to have systems that can deal with questions about CSAM. So you got those big questions you gotta answer and then you got stuff that's more in the line of like, alright, what makes a good platform? [00:57:54] What kind of guarantees are we trying to give there? So just not legal concerns, but you know, good product experience concerns. That's something we're in the realm of like spam and and abusive behavior and things like that. And then you get into even more fine grain of like what is a person's subjective preference and how can they kind of make their thing better? [00:58:15] And so you get a kind of a telescoping level of concerns from the really big, the legal sort of concerns. And then the really small subjective preference kind of concerns. And that actually that telescoping maps really closely to the design of the system as well. Where the further you get up in the kind of the, in that legal concern territory, you're now in core infrastructure. [00:58:39] And then you go from infrastructure, which is the relay down into the application, which is kind of a platform and then down into the client. And that's where we're having those labelers apply. And each of them, as you kind of move closer to infrastructure, the importance of the decision gets bigger too. [00:58:56] So you're trying to do just legal concerns with the relay right? Stuff that you objectively can, everybody's in agreement like Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, no bigs don't include that. The reason is that at the relay level, you're anybody that's using your relay, they depend on the decisions you're making, that sort of selection you're doing, any filtering you're doing, they don't get a choice after that. [00:59:19] So you wanna try to keep that focus really on legal concerns and doing that well. so that applications that are downstream of it can, can make their choices. The applications themselves, you know, somebody can run a parallel I guess you could call it like a parallel platform, so we got bluesky doing the microblogging use case, other people can make an application doing the microblogging use case. So there's, there's choice that users can easily switch, easily enough switch between, it's still a big choice. [00:59:50] So we're operating that in many ways. Like any other app nowadays might do it. You've got policies, you know, for what's acceptable on the network. you're still trying to keep that to be as, you know, objective as possible, make it fair, things like that. You want folks to trust your T&S team. Uh, but from the kind of systemic decentralization question, you get to be a little bit more opinionated. [01:00:13] Down all the way into the client with that labeling system where you can, you know, this is individuals turning on and off preferences. You can be as opinionated as you want on that letter. And that's how we have basically approached this. And in a lot of ways, it really just comes down to, in the day to day, you're the moderation, the volume of moderation tasks is huge. [01:00:40] You don't actually have high stakes moderation decisions most of the time. Most of 'em are you know pretty straightforward. Shouldn't have done that. That's gotta go. You get a couple every once in a while that are a little spicier or a policy that's a little spicier. And it probably feels pretty common to end users, but that just speaks to how much moderation challenges how the volume of reports and problems that come through. [01:01:12] And we don't wanna make it so that the system is seized up, trying to decentralize itself. You know, it needs to be able to operate day to day. What you wanna make is, you know, back pressure, you know, uh, checks on that power so that if an application or a platform does really start to go down the wrong direction on moderation, then people can have this credible exit. [01:01:36] This way of saying, you know what, that's a problem. We're moving from here. And somebody else can come in with different policies that better fit people's people's expectations about what should be done at, at these levels. So yeah, it's not about taking away authority, it's about checking authority, you know, kind of a checks and balances mentality. [01:01:56] Jeremy: And high level, 'cause you saying how there's such a high volume of, of things that you know what it is, you'd know you wanna remove it, but there's just so much of it. So is there, do you have automated tools to label these things? Do you have a team of moderators? Do they have to understand all the different languages that are coming through your network? [01:02:20] Yes, yes, yes and yes. Yeah. You use every tool at your disposal to, to stay on top of it. cause you're trying to move as fast as you can, folks. The problems showing up, you know, the slower you are to respond to it, the, the more irritating it is to folks. Likewise, if you make a, a missed call, if somebody misunderstands what's happening, which believe me, is sometimes just figuring out what the heck is going on is hard. [01:02:52] Paul: People's beefs definitely surface up to the moderation misunderstanding or wrong application. Moderators make mistakes so you're trying to maintain a pretty quick turnaround on this stuff. That's tough. And you, especially when to move fast on some really upsetting content that can make its way through, again, illegal stuff, for instance, but more videos, stuff like that, you know, it's a real problem. [01:03:20] So yeah, you're gotta be using some automated systems as well. Clamping down on bot rings and spam. You know, you can imagine that's gotten a lot harder thanks to LLMs just doing text analysis by dumb statistics of what they're talking about that doesn't even work anymore. [01:03:41] 'cause the, the LLMs are capable of producing consistently varied responses while still achieving the same goal of plugging a online betting site of some kind, you know? So we do use kind of dumb heuristic systems for when it works, but boy, that won't work for much longer. [01:04:03] And we've already got cases where it's, oh boy, so the moderation's in a dynamic place to say the least right now with, with LLMs coming in, it was tough before and

Can we keep up with AI? Paul Foster, CEO of the Esports Federation, dives into the legal implications of artificial intelligence. Gamers have a unique familiarity with artificial intel. Explore how AI is transforming game design, content creation, brand promotion and much more. Along with entertainment/media lawyer Bryan Tan of Reed Smith's Singapore office, Foster discusses the unique ways AI is enabling gamers to monetize their skills.  ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Hello and welcome to Tech Law Talks, a podcast brought to you by Reed Smith's Emerging Technologies Group. In each episode of this podcast, we will discuss cutting-edge issues on technology, data, and the law. We will provide practical observations on a wide variety of technology and data topics to give you quick and actionable tips to address the issues you are dealing with every day.  Bryan: Welcome to Tech Law Talks and our new series on artificial intelligence. Over the coming months, we'll explore the key challenges and opportunities with the rapidly evolving AI landscape. Today, we will focus on AI in the interesting world of esports. And we have together with us today, Mr. Paul Foster, who is the CEO of the Global Esports Federation. Good morning, Paul.  Paul: Good evening, Bryan. It's nice to be with you, coming from California.  Bryan: And I'm coming to you from Singapore, but we are all connected in one world. Today, we are here to talk about AI and esports. But before we start, I wanted to talk about you and to share what you were doing before AI and how that has changed after AI has now become a big thing.  Paul: Thanks, Bryan. Yeah. So I come from originally from Sydney, Australia, and I was from my background is really 20 years in the Olympic movement. So I started at the Sydney 2000 Olympics. So I started about three years before the Olympics, worked for the Olympics for about 20 years, so traditional sports, and then moved to esports and opened or founded the Global Esports Federation in 2019. And of course, we all know what happened four months after that, Bryan, with COVID and the pandemic that really closed a lot of traditional sport. And so esports really took off. So it's definitely been a very, very exciting and accelerating journey these last couple of years.  Bryan: Great. So you've kind of gotten into esports after a background in sports. And it's interesting you mentioned 2019 because we also know that somewhere around 2022, the end of 2022, just as the pandemic was sorting itself out. Artificial intelligence, primarily generative artificial intelligence, then began to capture the imagination of people. And the question here, I guess, is maybe we're talking to converted, but esports is obviously one of the most technologically advanced and clued in online ecosystems, communities. How has artificial intelligence impacted esports and is that a positive or negative thing?  Paul: You're absolutely right, Bryan. I think one of the things that I like to say is that we're living in what I consider to be one of the most exciting times in the history of humanity. The reason I say that is because of the convergence of all these incredibly powerful technologies at exactly the same time, at the very early dawn of AI. AI and I think it's something that we should reflect on because I think many people talk about AI as if we're already in the middle of the cycle and I think my position is that we're at the very early dawn, maybe even the pre-dawn of AI. I did some postgraduate studies in machine learning and AI so it's a passion project of mine, something I'd love to think about and I was recently at the global summit on AI with the International Telecommunications Union in Geneva and had a chance to sit with the leaders group. There was 30,000 people attending, Bryan, which is a big number of people showing the interest from all over the world. But there was a leaders group convened to look at policymaking. And in a sense, there was this feeling that industry has been rapidly growing and expanding almost at a pace or a cadence that is hard to sort of register in a sense. And then policymakers and particularly governments and others are trying to sort of catch up in a sense and and try to get in front of that. As you know Bryan we're very strong partners with UNESCO, the United Nations Education Science and Cultural Organization, as well as the international telecommunications union so we're also contributing to their thinking and bringing our community into the discussion one of the things that could be interesting for our listeners is that it's true what Bryan said is that our community, which is roughly in the range of 18 to 34-year-olds, are early adopters of technology. And one of the things that might be interesting is that gamers and people who play electronic sports and games have always been exposed to artificial intelligence in some form, even very, very early form. And so it's not a surprise to me that the adoption of of artificial intelligence and the interest in artificial intelligence in some ways has been really accepted by the esports community in the gaming community and as you also said Bryan you know this this demographic 18 to 34 is really the heart of what we call Gen Z or Gen and then now we're seeing Gen Alpha of course the next generation starting high school but what we also call this and some people widely call this generation is actually Gen T. Generation around around technologies and the early acceptance of that. And I can talk a little bit more about some of the applications for esports if that's interesting.  Bryan: No, I think that's interesting. And I think in particular, I think what will be interesting to hear is some of your own visions about what the future of AI and esports could be like. What does it promise to the esports community? What can they kind of look forward to? How do you see that going?  Paul: Yeah I think thanks for the question I think that it's um again I think there's the the possibilities are limitless and we're really at the beginning the early time about this and when I speak for example recently to colleagues and friends at companies such as open ai and others that I speak to every day there's a true interest around this particularly around the the creative economy and how we'll create games in the future and there's three things Bryan that I thought I'd mentioned, which is really the use of AI in terms of teams and players' preparation, the fact that we can have quicker and more efficient, I call it, you know, one of the great benefits, one of the things I've learned in my studies is that it needs to be human-focused and human-centric. And we're also, at the Global League Sports Federation, we support the UNESCO's position on the creation of ethical AI. And what that really talks about is human-focused because it's human-centered. And so one of the things I think is really interesting for our community is that they'll have quicker access to statistics, to analytics, to data. So they'll be able to, if you think about esports as a competitive sport or as a competitive event, any preparation that you can have to prepare you to have better results and better preparation will ultimately, should ultimately provide for a better outcome for you as a competitor, right? So that's number one. The second thing is that really what we can do for the creative economy, which is absolutely fascinating, Bryan, in esports, the whole economy around or the whole community around creators and content creators and people that really bring esports and bring it alive. Is that we'll be able to have automatically created clips and reels and analytics. So in real time, things like in pre-AI, we would have had to wait for editing, Bryan. We would have had to wait for editing. it might have taken hours or days and now that can happen in seconds so for and so that's fascinating and then the third thing so team preparation creative economy and then the third thing really talks around the economics of gaming and around sponsorship and value-based identity so that in the future our sponsors and our partners that are so important for the thriving nation and the the sustainability of gaming and esports will also be able to use AI to have greater analytics and greater awareness of their brand values, to actually understand the value of their brand. A very simple example is we can use AI to track how many times a certain brand was visible on a jersey or in an audience. We'll be able to use AI to actually track it in real time. Whereas again, Bryan, in the past, we would have had to look through video files and actually count it manually. And I remember doing that. I mean, another example I'll give you is I remember but not that long ago in my work at the Olympic Games, I literally remember installing what we used to call video walls. So walls of not even a video screen, but 12 video screens or 16, I think they were, 4x4 screens to be able to look at every venue at once. And when I think about that now, that seems like a long time ago, but it wasn't a long time ago. I mean, within the last 10 or 12 years, that was still our reality. And now we can use AI to capture that data, to give us the same results in real time across teams, across creators and across partners.  Bryan: Okay, thank you for that. I think three very concrete areas that we can look forward to as an esports community. Interestingly, you also mentioned the regulators, the governments trying to keep in touch with the development of AI. Yes. And it sounded as if it was a bit of a struggle for them. Do you think there are any big concerns about the deployment of AI esports that we should be kind of aware of and maybe try to avoid?  Paul: Yeah, I think it's really this notion about catching up, right? How do you catch up with something that's evolving every day and every hour of every day at a speed that's really difficult to contain? And also two schools of thought, really, which is one school of thought, which I remember, Bryan, I think Sam Altman from OpenAI recently said it. And he said, look, we're so busy and this is running so fast and so powerful, we'll come back and we'll get back to that later. Like we're off, you know, creating these incredibly strong and powerful platforms. We'll have to come back to those matters at a later stage. And it was interesting because when I was last couple of weeks ago in Geneva, you had policymakers, governments, ministers, etc., whose role was to make sure that the frameworks were established around implementing the framework on ethical AI. Were really struggling with this reality of being able to just, I mean, literally physically struggling with this reality of trying to get ahead of the knowledge, not only the knowledge, but also the policy work that needed to be put in place, the frameworks, the regulations, and then rolling that out across industry. At the same time, you have technology firms and particularly firms with specialization in AI, and you've seen the incredible value chain skyrocketing in recent months, really racing ahead. And yet you've got policymakers trying to get their hands around this and trying to even understand it. You've got the same challenges in academia, don't you, Bryan, with academia also trying to create curricula that by the time it's published, we may already be behind the eight ball in terms of where AI has taken us. So I think the thing that I would talk about is the concern I would have is the ethical side of AI because, you know, and keeping it human focused and in the best interest of humanity, meaning that really what the benefits are, the focus of benefits should be around making our lives more efficient, effective and more equitable. And there is a risk of course within AI that it can because of prejudice that is potentially built into the ai itself that it could continue to manifest that across the community and that's something that's difficult to get ahead of unless it's created with that lens at the very beginning.  Bryan: No i think that's that's absolutely correct it's uh it's a good reminder that this is technology we're dealing with, and technology can be something that's used for the good of humanity, but it can also be abused. And we have to keep in mind that the technology is there only for the benefit of mankind, like you said, and to keep that human centricity always in focus as AI is applied to esports. Okay, so last question, I promise you, Paul, as CEO of Global Esports Federation, what would you wish for the future of esports? And maybe just to make it interesting, on two spectrums, one, a more realistic expectation, and the second one, a moonshot. If your wish can be granted, what would your wish for esports be?  Paul: What a great question. Thanks, Bryan. I love that opportunity. Well, Well, the thing that's so interesting in esports and gaming is that anything that was a moonshot about two weeks ago is now already a reality. It moves so fast. So when you were mentioning a moonshot, I was thinking about the Olympics. And I'll talk about that in a moment because that would have been considered a moonshot just a few months ago, if not years ago. But what I think the future is, is the globalization of esports as a source of incredibly inclusive, powerful, evocative entertainment, right? So just as you have traditional sport and just as you have, for example, in the United States, you have the proliferation of leagues and professional sports. It's coming into view that you'll have very significant value and be able to really create a very sustainable living as an economic means through esports. Not only as a player winning significant prize money, but also as a content creator, as a game developer, as a marketeer, as an event organizer, as an academic. There's tons of opportunities. opportunities and in fact Bryan I was speaking with some friends of mine who are attorneys actually and it surprises me because traditionally I would talk to attorneys and then through conversation it comes out that they're really passionate about gaming and now maybe they specialize around being with illegal expertise in terms of intellectual property rights or different aspects of it and this also I wanted to share that with you Bryan because I thought that was interesting that even in a traditional professional, such as the practice of law. There's now a lot of interest in this field as well. What does that mean? That means that we get to manifest our lives how we wish them to be manifested. In the past, if I wanted to go into event management, I would have to do a certain angle. Now I can do that with inside esports. If I wanted to be in communications and global media, I might have had to do that in public relations, or in traditional luxury goods, for example, or consumer products. Now I can do it inside esports. So I think the future is extremely bright and relatively limitless in terms of being able to manifest my career, finding something I want to do in my profession, my skills, but be able to do it in something that I love doing. And that's a blessing, I think, Bryan, that very few of us, so you and I, that has happened in our lifetime, that we're able to actually have the life that we want, create professional professional conditions we want, earn a living of that by doing it in that field that we love. The moonshot which you've challenged me on, I was so proud having come from the Olympic movement in my hometown of Sydney and now seeing the reality of the Olympic eSports Games, which was just announced by the IOC a couple of weeks ago and then rapidly evolving. And how interesting is this? At the Paris 2024 Olympic Games, it seems that we'll see an announcement of the Olympic eSports Games itself, agreed by the IOC, confirmed by the IOC. And so one of the things i think is fascinating if you think about Olympic sport traditional sport, it took golf 121 years to come back onto the Olympic program and esports in global esports federation was as you said Bryan, founded in 2019 here we are just four years later not only is it inside the Olympic movement but there's actually a separate IP created called Olympic esports games. If we think about that for a moment, the IOC traditionally had their Olympic Games as their main IP. Yes, Winter Games. Yes, Youth Games. But now we have the Olympic Esports Games as a separate IP. And what's even interesting at the recent press release I read is that it said a whole new division, a whole new structure will be created at the IOC. Rather than trying to fit it into traditional models, a whole new structure will be created. it. So this was a moonshot. And I think that this will be fascinating in terms of how we see that evolve and how you see a traditional sports organization just a couple of years ago, really being a long way away from today. And in those very short years with the Global Esports Federation staging our Commonwealth Esports Championships, the European Esports Championships, the Pan American Esports Championships, and now seeing the evolution at the Olympic Esports Games, What an incredible opportunity that is for athletes, creators and community right around the world.  Bryan: Thank you for sharing that. And I think that's a great statement to make that what was yesterday's moonshot is today's reality in a fast-paced world that evolves because of technology. Thank you again for sharing with us your thoughts, Paul. I think it's been greatly exciting. We look forward to a great future in esports. And once again, thank you for joining us in this series.  Paul: Thank you, Bryan. Thanks very much, everyone.  Outro: Tech Law Talks is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. For more information about Reed Smith's emerging technologies practice, please email techlawtalks@reedsmith.com. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.  Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  All rights reserved. Transcript is auto-generated.

We're back! Let's Talk about CBT has been on hiatus for a little while but now it is back with a brand-new host Helen Macdonald, the Senior Clinical Advisor for the BABCP. Each episode Helen will be talking to experts in the different fields of CBT and also to those who have experienced CBT, what it was like for them and how it helped. This episode Helen is talking to one of the BABCP's Experts by Experience, Paul Edwards. Paul experienced PTSD after working for many years in the police. He talks to Helen about the first time he went for CBT and what you can expect when you first see a CBT therapist. The conversation covers various topics, including anxiety, depression, phobias, living with a long-term health condition, and the role of measures and outcomes in therapy. In this conversation, Helen MacDonald and Paul discuss the importance of seeking help for mental health struggles and the role of CBT in managing anxiety and other conditions. They also talk about the importance of finding an accredited and registered therapy and how you can find one. If you liked this episode and want to hear more, please do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us at @BABCPpodcasts on X or email us at podcasts@babcp.com. Useful links: For more on CBT the BABCP website is www.babcp.com Accredited therapists can be found at www.cbtregisteruk.com Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF   Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the senior clinical advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. I'm really delighted today to be joined by Paul Edwards, who is going to talk to us about his experience of CBT. And Paul, I would like to start by asking you to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about you. Paul: Helen, thank you. I guess the first thing it probably is important to tell the listeners is how we met and why I'm talking to you now. So, we originally met about four years ago when you were at the other side of a desk at a university doing an assessment on accreditation of a CBT course, and I was sitting there as somebody who uses his own lived experience, to talk to the students, about what it's like from this side of the fence or this side of the desk or this side of the couch, I suppose, And then from that I was asked if I'd like to apply for a role that was being advertised by the BABCP, as advising as a lived experience person. And I guess my background is, is a little bit that I actually was diagnosed with PTSD back in 2009 now, as a result of work that I undertook as a police officer and unfortunately, still suffered until 2016 when I had to retire and had to reach out. to another, another psychologist because I'd already had dealings with psychologists, but, they were no longer available to me. And I actually found what was called at the time, the IAPT service, which was the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies. And after about 18 months treatment, I said, can I give something back and can I volunteer? And my life just changed. So, we met. Yeah, four years ago, probably now. Helen: thank you so much, Paul. And we're really grateful to you for sharing those experiences. And you said about having PTSD, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and how it ultimately led to you having to retire. And then you found someone who could help. Would you like to just tell us a bit about what someone might not know about being on the receiving end of CBT? Paul: I feel that actual CBT is like a physiotherapy for the brain. And it's about if you go to the doctors and they diagnose you with a calf strain, they'll send you to the physio and they'll give you a series of exercises to do in between your sessions with your physio to hopefully make your calf better. And CBT is very much, for me, like that, in as much that you have your sessions with your therapist, but it's your hard work in between those sessions to utilize the tools and exercises that you've been given, to make you better. And then when you go back to your next session, you discuss that and you see, over time that you're honing those tools to actually sometimes realising that you're not using those tools at all, but you are, you're using them on a daily basis, but they become so ingrained in changing the way you think positively and also taking out the negativity about how you can improve. And, and yeah, it works sometimes, and it doesn't work sometimes and it's bloody hard work and it is shattering, but it works for me. Helen: Thank you, Paul. And I think it's really important when you say it's hard work, the way you described it there sounds like the therapist was like the coach telling you how to or working with you to. look at how you were thinking and what you were doing and agreeing things that you could change and practice that were going to lead to a better quality of life. At the same time though, you're thinking about things that are really difficult. Paul: Yeah. Helen: And when you say it was shattering and it was really difficult, was it worth it? Paul: Oh God. Yeah, absolutely. I remember way back in about 2018, it would be, that there was, there was a fantastic person who helped me when I was coming up for retirement. And we talked about what I was going to do when I, when I left the police and I was, you know, I said, you know, well, I don't know, but maybe I've always fancied being a TV extra and, That was it. And I saw her about 18 months later, and she said, God, Paul, you look so much better. You're not grey anymore. You know, what have you done about this? And it was like, she said I was a different person. Do I still struggle? Yes. Have I got a different outlook on life? Yes. Do I still have to take care of myself? Yes. But, I've got a great life now. I'm living the dream is my, is my phrase. It is such a better place to be where I am now. Helen: I'm really pleased to hear that, Paul. So, the hard work that you put into changing things for the better has really paid off and that doesn't mean that everything's perfect or that you're just doing positive thinking in the face of difficulty, you've got a different approach to handling those difficulties and you've got a better quality of life. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And don't get me wrong, I had some great psychologists before 2016, but I concentrated on other things and we dealt with other traumas and dealt with it in other ways and using other, other ways of working. I became subjected to probably re traumatising myself because of the horrendous things I'd seen and heard. So, it was about just changing my thought processes and, and my psychologist said, Well, you know, we don't want to re traumatise you, let's look at something different. Let's look at a different part and see if we can change that. And, and that was, very difficult, but it meant that I had to look into myself again and be honest with myself and start thinking about my honesty and what I was going to tell my psychologist because I wanted to protect that psychologist because I didn't want them to hear and talk about the things that I'd had to witness because I didn't think it was fair, but I then understood that I needed to and that my psychologist would be taken care of. Which was, which was lovely. So, I became able to be honest with myself, which therefore I can be honest with my therapist. Helen: Thank you, Paul. And what I'm hearing there is that one of your instincts, if you like, in that situation was to protect the therapist from hearing difficult stuff. And actually the therapist themselves have their own opportunity to talk about what's difficult for them. So, the person who's coming for therapy can speak freely, although I'm saying that it's quite difficult to do. And certainly Post Traumatic Stress Disorder isn't the only thing that people go for CBT about, there are a number of different anxiety difficulties, depression, and also a wider range of things, including how to live well with a long term health condition and your experience could perhaps really help in terms of somebody going for their first session, not knowing what to expect. As a CBT therapist, I have never had somebody lie down on a couch. So, tell us a little bit about what you think people should know if they are thinking of going for CBT or if they think that somebody they care about might benefit from CBT. What's it like going for that first appointment? Paul: Bloody difficult. It's very difficult because by the very nature of the illnesses that we have that we want to go and speak to a psychologist, often we're either losing confidence or we're, we're anxious about going. So I have a phrase now and it's called smiley eyes and it, and it was developed because the very first time that I walked up to the, the place that I had my CBT in 2016, the receptionist opened the door and had these most amazing engaging smiley eyes and it, it drew me in. And I thought, wow. And then when I walked through the door and saw the psychologist again, it was like having a chat. It was, I feel that for me, I know now, I know now. And I've spoken to a number of psychologists who say it's not just having a chat. It is to me. And that is the gift of a very good psychologist, that they are giving you all these wonderful things. But it's got to be a collaboration. It's got to be like having a chat. We don't want to be lectured, often. I didn't want to have homework because I hated homework at school. So, it was a matter of going in and, and talking with my psychologist about how it worked for me as an individual, and that was the one thing that with the three psychologists that I saw, they all treated me as an individual, which I think is very, very important, because what works for one person doesn't work for another. Helen: So it's really important that you trust the person and you make a connection. A good therapist will make you feel at ease, make you feel as safe as you can to talk about difficult stuff. And it's important that you do get on with each other because you're working closely together. You use the word collaboration and it's definitely got to be about working together. Although you said earlier, you're not sure about the word expert, you're the expert on what's happening to you, even though the therapist will have some expertise in what might help, the kind of things to do and so there was something very important about that initial warmth and greeting from the service as well as the therapist. Paul: Oh, absolutely. And you know, as I said earlier, I'm honoured to speak at some universities to students who are learning how to be therapists. And the one thing I always say to them is think about if somebody tells you their innermost thoughts, they might never have told anybody and they might have only just realised it and accepted it themselves. So think about if you were sitting, thinking about, should I put in this thesis to my lecturer? I'm not sure about it. And how nervous you feel. Think about that person on the other side of the, you know, your therapy room or your zoom call or your telephone call, thinking about that. What they're going to be feeling. So to get through the door, we've probably been through where we've got to admit it to ourselves. We then got to admit it to somebody else. Sometimes we've then got to book the appointment. We then got to get in the car to get the appointment or turn on the computer. And then we've got to actually physically get there and walk through. And then when we're asked the question, we're going to tell you. We've been through a lot of steps every single time that we go for therapy. It's not just the first time, it's every time because things develop. So, you know, it's, it's fantastic to have the ability to want to tell someone that. So when I say it's fantastic to have the ability, I mean, in the therapist, having the ability to, to make it that you want to tell them that because you trust them. Helen: So that first appointment, it might take quite a bit of determination to turn up in spite of probably feeling nervous and not completely knowing what to expect, but a good therapist will really make the effort to connect with you and then gently try to find out what the main things are that you have come for help with and give you space to work out how you want to say what you want to say so that you both got , a shared understanding of what's going on.So your therapist really does know, or has a good sense of what might help. So, when you think about that very first session and what your expectations were and what you know now about having CBT, what would you say are the main things that are different? Paul: Oh, well, I don't actually remember my first session because I was so poorly. I found out afterwards there was three of us in the room because the psychologist had a student in there, but I was, I, I didn't know, but I still remember those smiley eyes and I remember the smiley eyes of the receptionist. And I remember the smiley eyes of my therapist. And I knew I was in the right place. I felt that this person cared for me and was interested and, you know, please don't think that the, the psychologist before I didn't feel that, you know, they were fantastic, but I was in a different place. I didn't accept it myself. I had different boundaries. I wanted to stay in the police. I, you know, I thought, well, if I, you know, if I admit this, I'm not going to have my, my job and I can't do my job. So a hundred percent of me was giving to my job. And unfortunately, that meant that the rest of my life couldn't cope, but my job and my professionalism never waned because I made sure of that, but it meant that I hadn't got the room in my head and the space in my head for family and friends. And it was at the point that I realized that. It wasn't going to be helpful for the rest of my life that I had to say, you know what, I'm going to have to, something's going to have to give now. And unfortunately, that was, you know, my career, but up until that point, I'm proud to say that I worked at the highest level and I gave a hundred percent. Now I realised that I have to have a life work balance rather than a work life balance, because I put life first. And I say that to everybody have a life work balance. It doesn't mean you can't have a good work ethic. It doesn't mean you can't work hard. It's just what's important in that. So what's the difference between the first session then and the first session now? Well, I didn't remember the first session. Now, I know that that psychologist was there to help me and there to test me and to look at my weaknesses. Look at my issues, but also look at my strengths and make me realize I'd got some because I didn't realise I had. Helen: That's really important, Paul, and thank you for sharing what that was like. I really appreciate that you've been so open and up front with me about those experiences. Paul: So let's turn this round to you then Helen as a therapist And you talked about lots of conditions, and things that people could have help with seeing a CBT therapist because obviously I have PTSD and I have the associated anxiety and depression and I still deal with that. What are the other things that people can have help with that they, some that they do have heard, have heard of, but other things that they might not know can be helped by CBT? Helen: Well, that's a really good question. And I would say that CBT is particularly good at helping people with anxiety and depression. So different kinds of anxiety, many people will have heard, for example, of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, OCD, or Generalized Anxiety Disorder where people worry a lot, and it's very ordinary to worry, but when it gets out of hand, other things like phobias, for example, where the anxiety is much more than you'd expect for the amount of danger people sometimes worry too much about getting ill or being ill, so they might have an illness anxiety. Those are very common anxiety difficulties that people have. CBT, I mean, you've already mentioned this, but CBT is also very good for depression. Whether that's a relatively short term episode of really low mood, or whether it's more severe and ongoing, then perhaps the less well known things that CBT is good for. For example, helping people live well if they have a psychotic disorder, maybe hearing voices, for example, or having beliefs that are quite extreme and unusual, and want to have help with that. It's also very good for living with a long term health condition where there isn't anything medical that can cure the condition, but for example, living well with something like diabetes or long term pain. Paul: interestingly, you spoke about phobias then, Is the work that a good therapist doing just in the, the consulting room or just over, the, this telephone or, or do you do other things? I'm thinking of somebody I knew who had a phobia of, particular escalators and heights, and they were told to go out and do that. You know, try and go on an escalator and, they managed to get up to the top floor of Selfridges in Birmingham because that's where the shoes were and that helped. But would you just, you know, would you just talk about these things, or do you go out and about or do you encourage people to, to do these with you and without? Helen: Again, that's, that's a really good point, Paul, and the psychotherapy answer is it depends. So let's think about some examples. So sometimes you will be mostly in the therapist's office or, and as you've mentioned, sometimes on the phone or it can be on a video call. but sometimes it's really, really useful to go out and do something together. And when you said about somebody who's afraid of being on an escalator, sometimes it really helps to find a way of doing that step by step and doing it together. So, whether that's together with someone else that you trust or with the therapist, you might start off by finding what's the easiest escalator that we've got locally that we can use and let's do that together. And let me walk up the stairs and wait for you and you do it on your own, but I'll be there waiting. Then you do it on your own and come back down and meet me. Then go and do it with a friend and then do it on your own. So, there's a process of doing this step by step. So you are facing the fear, you are challenging how difficult it is to do this when you're anxious. But you find a place where you can take the anxiety with you successfully, so we don't drop you in the deep end. We don't suddenly say, right, you're going all the way to the fifth floor now. We start one step at a time, but we do know that you want to get to the shoes or whatever your own personal goal and motivation is there's got to be a good reason to do it gives you something to aim towards, but also when you've done it, there's a real sense of achievement. And if I'm honest as a therapist, it's delightful for me as well as for the person I'm working with when we do achieve that. Sometimes it isn't necessarily that we're facing a phobia, but it might be that we're testing out something. Maybe, I believe that it's really harmful for me to leave something untidy or only check something once. We might do an experiment and test out what it's like to change what we're doing at the moment and see what happens. And again, it's about agreeing it together. It's not my job to tell somebody what to go and do. It's my job to work with somebody to make sure that they've got the tools they need to take their anxiety with them. And sometimes that anxiety will get less, it'll get more manageable. Sometimes it goes away altogether, but that's not something I would promise. What I would do is work my very hardest to make the anxiety so that the person can manage it successfully and live their life to the full, even if they do still have some. Paul: And, and for me, I think one of the things that I remember is that my, you know, my mental health manifested itself in physical symptoms as well. So it was like when I was thinking about things, I was feeling sick, I was feeling tearful. and that's, that's to be expected at times, isn't it? And, and even when you're facing your fears or you're talking through what you're experiencing. It's, it's, it's a normal thing. And, and even when I had pure CBT, it can be exhausting. And I said to my therapist, please. Tell people that, you know, your therapy doesn't end in the session. And it's okay to say to people, well, go and have a little walk around, make sure you can get somebody to pick you up or make sure you can get home or make sure you've got a bit of a safe space for half an hour afterwards and you haven't got to, you know, maybe pick the kids up or whatever, because that that's important time for you as well. Helen: That's a really important message. Yes, I agree with you there, Paul, is making sure that you're okay, give yourself a bit of space and processing time and trying to make it so that you don't have to dash straight off to pick up the kids or go back to work immediately, trying to arrange it so that you've got a little bit of breathing space to just make sure you're okay, maybe make a note of important things that you want to think about later, but not immediately dashing off to do something that requires all your concentration. And I agree with you, it is tiring. You said at the beginning it's just having a chat and now you've talked about all the things that you actually do in a session. It's a tiring chat and tiring to talk about how it feels, tiring to think about different ways of doing things, tiring to challenge some of the assumptions that we make about things. Yes it is having a chat, but really can be quite tiring. Paul: And I think that the one thing that you said in there as well, you know, you talk about what would you recommend. Take a pen and paper. Because often you cannot remember. everything you put it in there. So, make notes if you need to. Your therapist will be making notes, so why can't you? And also, you know, I think about some of the tasks I was given in between my sessions, rather than calling it my homework, my tasks I was given in between sessions to, I suffered particularly with, staying awake at night thinking about conversations I was going to have with the person I was going to see the next day and it manifested itself I would actually make up the conversations with every single possible answer that I could have- and guess what- 99 times out of 100 I never even saw the person let alone had the conversation. So it was about even if I'm thinking in the middle of the night, you know, what I'm going to do, just write it down, get rid of it, you know, and I guess that's, you know, coming back again, Helen to put in the, the ball in your court and saying, well, what, what techniques are there for people? Helen: Well, one of the things that you're saying there about keeping a note and writing things down can be very useful, partly to make sure that we don't forget things, but also so that it isn't going round and round in your head. The, and because it's very individual, there may be a combination of things like step by step facing something that makes you anxious, step by step changing what you're doing to improve your mood. So perhaps testing out what it's like to do something that you perhaps think you're not going to enjoy, but to see whether it actually gives you some sense of satisfaction or gives you some positive feedback, testing out whether a different way of doing something works better. So there's a combination of understanding what's going on, testing out different ways of doing things, making plans to balance what things you're doing. Sometimes there may be things about resting better. So you said about getting a better night's sleep and a lot of people will feel that they could manage everything a bit better if they slept better. So that can be important. Testing out different ways of approaching things, asking is that reasonable to say that to myself? Sometimes people are thinking quite harsh things about themselves or thinking that they can't change things. But with that approach of, well, let's see, if we test something out different and see if that works. So there's a combination of different things that the therapist might do but it should always be very much the, you're a team, you're working together, your therapist is right there alongside you. Even when you've agreed you're going to do something between sessions, it's that the therapist has agreed this with you. You've thought about what might happen if you do this and how you're going to handle it. And as you've said, sometimes it's a surprise that it goes much better than we thought it was going to. So, so we're testing our predictions and sometimes it's a surprise. It's almost like being a scientist. You're doing experiments, you're testing things out, you're seeing what happens if you do this. And the therapist will have some ideas about the kind of things that will work. but you're the one doing, doing the actual doing of it. Paul: And little things like, you know, I, I remember, I was taught a lovely technique and it's called the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, technique about when you're anxious. And it's about, I guess it's about grounding yourself in the here and now and not, trying to worry about what you're anxious about so you try and get back into what is there now. Can you just explain that? I mean, I know I know I'm really fortunate. I practice it so much. I probably call it the 2-1 So could you just explain how what that is in a more eloquent way than myself? Helen: I think you explained that really well, Paul, but what we're talking about is doing things that help you manage anxiety when it's starting to get in the way and bringing yourself back to in the here and now. And for example, it might be, can I describe things that I can see around me? Can I see five things that are green? Can I feel my feet on the floor? Tell whether it's windy and all of those things will help to make me aware of being in the here and now and that the anxiety is a feeling, but I don't have to be carried away by it. Paul: And there's another lovely one that, I, you know, when people are worrying about things and, it's basically about putting something in a box and only giving yourself a certain time during the day to worry about those things when you open the box and often when you've got that time to yourself. So give yourself a specific time where you, you know, are not worrying about the kids or in going to sport or doing whatever. So you've got yourself half an hour and that's your worry time in essence. And, you know, I use it on my phone and it's like, well, what am I worrying about? I'll put that in my worry box and then I'll only allow myself to look at that between seven and half past tonight. And by the time I've got there, I'll be done. I'm not worrying about the five things. I might be worrying slightly about one of them, but that's more manageable. And then I can deal with that. So what's the thought behind? I guess I've explained it, but what, what's the psychological thought behind that? And, and who would have devised that? I mean, who are these people who have devised CBT in the past? Because we haven't even explored that yet. Helen: Well, so firstly, the, the worry box idea, Paul, is it's a really clever psychological technique is that we can tell ourselves that we're going to worry about this properly later. Right now, we're busy doing something else, but we've made an appointment with ourselves where we can worry properly about it. And like you've said, if we reassure ourselves that actually, we are, we're going to deal with what's going on through our mind. It reassures our mind and allows it not to run away with us. And then when we do come to it, we can check, well, how much of a problem is this really? And if it's not really much of a problem, it's easier to let it go. And if it really is a problem, we've made space to actually think about, well, what can I do about it then? so that technique and so many of the other techniques that are part of Cognitive and Behavioural psychotherapies have been developed in two directions, I suppose. In one direction, it's about working with real people and seeing what happens to them, and checking what works, and then looking at lots of other people and seeing whether those sorts of things work. So, we would call that practice based evidence. So, it's from doing the actual work of working with people. From the other direction, then, there is more laboratory kind of science about understanding as much as we can about how people behave and why we do what we do, and then if that is the case, then this particular technique ought to work. Let's ask people if they're willing to test it out and see whether it works, and if it works, we can include that in our toolkit. Either way, CBT is developed from trying to work out what it is that works and doing that. So, so that's why we think that evidence is important, why it's important to be scientific about it as far as we can, even though it's also really, really important that we're working with human beings here. We're working with people and never losing sight of. That connection and collaboration and working together. So although we don't often use the word art and science, it is very much that combination Paul: And I guess that's where the measures and outcomes, you know, come into the science part and the evidence base. So, so for me, it's about just a question of if I wanted to read up on the history of CBT, which actually I have done a little. Who are the people who have probably started it and made the most influence in the last 50 years, because BABCP is 50 years old now, so I guess we're going back before that to the start of CBT maybe, but who's been influential in that last 50 years as well? Helen: Well, there are so many really incredible researchers and therapists, it's very hard to name just a few. One of the most influential though would be Professor Aaron T. Beck, who was one of the first people to really look into the way that people think has a big impact on how they feel. And so challenging, testing out whether those thoughts make sense and experimenting with doing things differently, very much influenced by his work and, and he's very, very well known in our field, from, The Behavioural side, there've been some laboratory experiments with animals a hundred years ago. And I must admit nowadays, I'm not sure that we would regard it as very ethical. Understanding from people-there was somebody called BF Skinner, who very much helped us to understand that we do things because we get a reward from them and we stop doing things because we don't or because they feel, they make us feel worse. But that's a long time ago now. And more recently in the field, we have many researchers all over the world, a combination of people in the States, in the UK, but also in the wider global network. There's some incredible work being done in Japan, in India, you name it. There's some incredible work going on in CBT and it all adds to how can we help people better with their mental health? Paul: and I think that for me as the patient and, and being part of the BABCP family, as I like to, to think I'm part of now, I've been very honoured to meet some very learned people who are members of the BABCP. And it, it astounds me that, you know, when I talk to them, although it shouldn't, they're just the most amazing people and I'm very lucky that I've got a couple of signed books as well from people that I take around, when I do my TV extra work. And one of them is a fascinating book by Helen Macdonald, believe it or not on long term conditions that, that I thoroughly recommend people, read, and another one and another area that I don't think we've touched on that. I was honoured to speak with is, a guy called, Professor Glenn Waller, who writes about eating disorders. So eating disorders. It's one of those things that people maybe don't think about when they think of CBT, but certainly Glenn Waller has been very informative in that. And how, how do you feel about the work in that area? And, and how important that may be. I know we'll probably go on in a bit about how people can access, CBT and, you know, and NHS and private, but I think for me is the certain things that maybe we need to bring into the CBT family in NHS services and eating disorders for me would be one is, you know, what are your thoughts about those areas and other areas that you'd like to see brought into more primary care? Helen: Again, thank you for bringing that up, Paul. And very much so eating disorders are important. and CBT has a really good evidence base there and eating disorders is a really good example of where somebody working in CBT in combination with a team of other professionals, can be particularly helpful. So perhaps working with occupational therapists, social workers, doctors, for example. And you mentioned our book about persistent pain, which is another example of working together with a team. So we wrote that book together with a doctor and with a physiotherapist. Paul: Yeah, yeah. Helen: And so sometimes depending on what the difficulties are, working together as a team of professionals is the best way forward. There are other areas which I haven't mentioned for example people with personality issues which again can be seen as quite severe but there is help available and at the moment there is more training available for people to be able to become therapists to help with those issues. And whether it's in primary care in the NHS or in secondary care or in hospital services, there are CBT therapists more available than they used to be and this is developing all the time. And I did notice just then, Paul, that you said about, whether you access CBT on the NHS and, and you received CBT through the NHS, but there are other ways of accessing CBT. Paul: That was going to be my very next question is how do we as patients feel, happy that the therapist we are seeing is professionally trained, has got a, a good background and for want of a phrase that I'm going to pinch off, do what it says on the tin. But do what it says on the tin because I, I am aware that CBT therapists aren't protected by title. So unfortunately, there are people who, could advertise as CBT therapist when they haven't had specific training or they don't have continual development. So, The NHS, if you're accessing through the NHS, through NHS Talking Therapies or anything, they will be accredited. So, you know, you can do that online, you can do it via your GP. More so for the protection of the public and the making sure that the public are happy. What have the BABCP done to ensure that the psychotherapists that they have within them do what they say it does on the tin. Helen: yes, that's a number of very important points you're making there, Paul. And first point, do check that your therapist is qualified. You mentioned accredited. So a CBT psychotherapist will, or should be, Accredited which means that they can be on the CBT Register UK and Ireland. That's a register which is recognised by the Professional Standards Authority, which is the nearest you can get to being on a register like doctors and nurses. But at the moment, anyone can actually call themselves a psychotherapist. So it's important to check our register at BABCP. We have CBT therapists, but we have other people who use Cognitive and Behavioural therapies. Some of those people are called Wellbeing Practitioners that are probably most well known in England. We also have people who are called Evidence Based Parent Trainers who work with the parents of children and on that register, everybody has met the qualifications, the professional development, they're having supervision, and they have to show that they work in a professional and ethical way and that covers the whole of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England. So do check that your therapist is on that Register and feel free to ask your therapist any other questions about specialist areas. For example, if they have qualifications to work particularly with children, particularly with eating disorders, or particularly from, with people from different backgrounds. Do feel free to ask and a good therapist will always be happy to answer those questions and provide you with any evidence that you need to feel comfortable you're working with the right person. Paul: that's the key, isn't it? Because if it's your hard-earned money, you want to make sure that you've got the right person. And for me, I would say if they're not prepared to answer the question, look on that register and find somebody who will, because there's many fantastic therapists out there. Helen: And what we'll do is make sure that all of those links, any information about us that we've spoken in this episode will be linked to on our show page. Paul, we're just about out of time. So, what would you say are the absolute key messages that you want our listeners to take away from this episode? What the most important messages, Paul: If you're struggling, don't wait. If you're struggling, please don't wait. Don't wait until you think that you're at the end of your tether for want of a better phrase, you know, nip it in the bud if you can at the start, but even if you are further down the line, please just reach out. And like you say, Helen, there's, there's various ways you can reach out. You can reach out via the NHS. You can reach out privately. I think we could probably talk for another hour or two about a CBT from my perspective and, and how much it's, it has meant to me. But also what I will say is I wish I'd have known now what, or should I say I wish I knew then what I knew now about being able to, to, to open myself up, more than, you know, telling someone and protecting them as well, because there was stuff that I had to re-enter therapy in 2021. And it took me till then to tell my therapist something because I was like disgusted with myself for having seen and heard it so much. But actually, it was really important in my continual development, but yeah, don't wait, just, just, you know, reach out and understand that you will have to work hard yourself, but it is worth it at the end. If you want to run a marathon. You're not going to run a marathon by just doing the training sessions when you see your PT once a week. And you are going to get cramp, and you are going to get muscle sores, and you are going to get hard work in between. But when you complete that marathon, or even a half marathon, or even 5k, or even 100 meters, it's really worth it. Helen: Paul, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really grateful for you speaking with me and it's wonderful to hear all your experiences and for you to share that, to encourage people to seek help if they need it and what might work. Thank you. Paul: Pleasure. Thanks Helen.

Sometimes it's just a pleasure to sit back and listen.  This is one of those moments - for me, certainly, but hopefully for you too.  I had the pleasure of sitting and chatting with two icons of the industry - Sean Conboy and the inimatable nonagenarian, Stuart Clark who is not only still shooting at the age of 97 but is a considerable racontour (you can hear me and Sean laughing in the background throughout!) Stuart started his career in 1941, so his stories are not only entertaining but are fascinating as they cover every photography development from glass plate through to the state of the art digital wizardry we're facing today. This interview is worth listening to every one of its 90 or so minutes! Enjoy!   Cheers P. If you enjoy this podcast, please head over to Mastering Portrait Photography, for more articles and videos about this beautiful industry. You can also read a full transcript of this episode. PLEASE also subscribe and leave us a review - we'd love to hear what you think! If there are any topics, you would like to hear, have questions we could answer or would like to come and be interviewed on the podcast, please contact me at paul@paulwilkinsonphotography.co.uk.    Transcript [00:00:00] Paul: So there are so, so many things I love about being in this industry, the things we get to do, and in particular, this podcast, and one of the many things is having these moments that you're about to hear, where I get to sit and chat with someone I've known for a very long time, Sean Conboy, fantastic photographer, and just a wonderful human being. [00:00:20] And someone he introduced me to, a guy called Stuart Clark.  [00:00:23] Now Stuart is 98 years old in July this year. Self proclaimed as one of the oldest working photographers in the country, and I'm not sure that anyone's going to argue with that. He started training as a photographer in 1940. That makes this, he's been working as a photographer for 84 years. [00:00:46] And the whole of this interview is taking place in what was, his photography studio in a little town just outside Leeds. It's his front living room, but it's huge. It's got a high ceiling and you can imagine how the lighting would have been hot, continuous lights and families just having the best time with someone who I learned very quickly, is a storyteller and a raconteur, uh, just a wonderful, a wonderful human being. There are lots of things to listen out for in the following interview, and let me draw your attention to just a few. Uh, listen out for the flash powder story. It's very funny. Uh, the story of, uh, People retouching, lots of retouching stories from the 1940s and billiard ball complexions. [00:01:31] . Doing multiple jobs in a day. He used to do three or four jobs in a day, and have the timing so accurate that could include photographing a wedding. He learned his craft. He's great. [00:01:42] He's spent time creating images for press, looking for alternative, alternative images and looking for PR images that no matter how much a sub editor crops them, the brand or at least the story is still very much intact. He talks about the utter love of the job and appreciating what a privileged position photographers like ourselves are in every day of the week. [00:02:07] He talks a little about the role of agencies and how they now manage messages from companies in a way that probably they never did. He talks about relationships and he talks about being positive and persistence. He also talks about the role of the Institute. [00:02:24] Finally, he talks a little bit about photographers always being the fag end of everything, but in the end, what he talks about really, It's the love of his job and the love of his clients.  [00:02:35] Why am I telling you all of this upfront? Well, this is a long interview, but the sound of Stuart's voice and the history that it represents, as well as the fact that he's more current than an awful lot of photographers who I know right now who are much younger, uh, but just, there's something in his, his entire manner that is captivating and enthralling, informative and useful. And so, although it's a long interview, I thought I'd just explain a little bit about why I found it so appealing and why I've left the edit almost entirely intact. I've removed a few lumps and bumps where we all managed to hit a microphone as we're gesticulating. [00:03:16] So picture the scene, there's myself, Sean and Stuart sitting, in armchairs and on couches. [00:03:27] And if you're wondering why it took me quite so long, this interview is actually, it goes back to February of this year, and why it took me quite so long to get it out, it was partly because there was a lot of of lumps to remove and partly because it was this trip, this interview, this podcast that I was returning home from when the Land Rover blew up. [00:03:46] And frankly, I think there's a little bit of trauma there with a six and a half thousand pound bill to re, to replace and repair piston number two. I think my heart just, I needed a minute just to not recall it every single time I try to edit this particular podcast down. It's a wonderful interview. Please enjoy. [00:04:06] I know it's quite long, um, but what an absolute legend. I'm Paul and this is the Mastering Portrait Photography Podcast.  [00:04:32] So, firstly, Stuart, thank you for welcoming us into your home. We've driven quite a long way, uh, to come and see you. Sean, uh, recommended we speak to you, because the number of stories you have make even his collection of stories look Insignificant. [00:04:48] And as we all know, Sean, The Footnote Conboy has more stories than any man I've ever met up until probably this, this moment in time. So to kick the conversation off, how did you become a photographer? [00:05:05] Stuart: It was an unfortunate or fortunate chain of events because, um, I was at the Leeds College of Art in 1940, 41, and I had the desire and intention of being a commercial artist, which is now referred as graphic designer and at that time, being wartime, there was little advertising being done, and so, uh, perhaps I was not sufficiently talented, but I finished up working for a firm who were essentially photoengravers, but they had a commercial photography studio as well, and they were short of somebody to join them, and I went in there and became virtually an apprentice photographer. This was very interesting because at that time, again, there was very little commercial photography advertising being done, and so all our efforts, or most of our efforts, were centred on war work, which involved going round the factories and, uh, Photographing for record purposes, the input of the particular company. And in those days, I can tell you that that was not a very comfortable proposition because we were on total blackout, and therefore, all the fumes in the factory, whatever they were, had very little chance of escaping, so you've got the fumes and the heat, and then of course we were only Illuminating scenes with flash powder, which was an added hazard, and, and so Photography outside in the factories was not very pleasant, but inside the factory, or in the studio, we were also doing war work, and that was to photograph silhouettes, scale models of all aircraft of both the enemy and, uh, and, uh, Home, uh, Aircraft for identification purposes, so that the air gunners were not shooting our own planes down in action. And another very interesting thing which I have always remembered was that the four, or the eight cannons In the Spitfire, that was four in each wing, were harmonized to converge at a point away from the Spitfire so that the Fire, the maximum fire point was when those two lots of cannons converged. [00:08:34] The only reference that the pilots had was a silhouette which we had photographed, so that he could visualize that silhouette in the, aiming sight of his  [00:08:50] guns.  [00:08:51] Paul: a very early heads up display.  [00:08:53] Stuart: Indeed.  [00:08:54] Paul: Yeah. [00:08:55] Stuart: And, so, that was quite an important element, I think, of our war work for the Air Ministry. [00:09:03] The main factory was engraving the, conical, rangefinder cones for 25 pound howitzers. [00:09:14] Paul: Right. [00:09:15] Stuart: And at the time of leaving school, everybody had to be doing war work.  [00:09:21] And so I went to the company on the pretext of doing war work of that nature, rather than going round snapping. [00:09:31] Paul: Right. [00:09:32] Sean: Stuart, could you also, um, I mean you've told me many great tales about your time actually in the, uh, armed services film unit, i think that might be quite interesting,  [00:09:42] Stuart: Well, I was called up and because of my interest in mechanical things and gadgetry and so forth, I finished up in the Royal Army Service Corps. But a friend of my mother's husband suggested that I applied for a trade test in photography. And one day I was called up to the orderly room and they said, We've got the movement order here for you. Um, to go to Pinewood Studios, of all places. I don't know what this is about, but anyway, here's your movement order. So, I went down to Pinewood, and we had a trade test, and I think I finished up, uh, top of the, the, uh, examination. But then I was returned to unit at Catterick, and I was up there for another few months, and then I was posted. And eventually, after about six weeks of the posting, I got another movement order to go back to Pinewood Studios, where I started my course in cinephotography, [00:11:06] and still photography. Now, this was the last course. before Pinewood closed down and the unit closed down. I'm talking about Pinewood closing down, Pinewood was the headquarters of the Army Film and Photographic Unit from when it was formed in October 41. [00:11:35] The course included preparation for action photography, essentially. when the course started, the war was still on in Central Europe. but before the course finished, it, uh, the war finished. [00:11:58] And The Japanese War was still going on until September of the same year, which was 45. But we were still being trained, and when the course finished, we had very little to do but just wait to see what happened. And so from September to, um, December of that year, we were just hanging about in the studios. [00:12:30] We were then posted to the Far East, in fact to Malaya, where the No. 9 unit was formed. Having been moved by Batten's headquarters, Mountbatten's headquarters, from Ceylon to Singapore, thought that it would be probably much more congenial there than in Ceylon, India. [00:12:57] So number nine was there and it's interesting to note that right at this moment an exhibition is being produced for the photographer's gallery on Bert Hardy's life and Bert Hardy at the time that I there was, in fact, the stills captain in charge of all the still photography in Malay Command. Or the, not Malay Command, the Far East Command, because we had outstations in Java and Hong Kong, and even, uh, one guy, uh, was in, um, in Hiroshima. So that was the formation of the, the, uh, Far East, Southeast Asia Command photographic, uh, outfit. until it closed down, uh, in September, August September of 46, and we are then dispersed Some went to the Imperial War Museum, the Imperial, uh, war, graves Commission, et cetera, and six of us went back to Vienna, where we joined number 9, Public Relations, because unit had been disbanded completely. So, there in, uh, in Austria, we were doing what they call Local Boy Stories, and we made a couple of films on the Irish regiments and also the East Yorkshire, not the East Yorkshire, the Yorkshire regiments who were guarding and on guard duties at the palace, Shurnbran Palace, which everybody has heard of, and um, and so that carried on until, uh, the Until I was demobbed in 1947, December. came home and went back to the company I originally started with because they were compelled to take people for 12 months. And at the end of that time, I decided to leave I had a bit of a a difference of opinion with the studio manager, who was RAF, and I was Army, and I was a sergeant as well, and I don't think he was quite that when he was in the RAF photographic section, but there was a resentment anyway. [00:16:02] of my presence.  [00:16:03] So, I went to the firm called C. R. H. Pickards, who were one of the finest industrial, uh, and leading industrial photographic units, companies, in the north of England. [00:16:24] It was there, then, that I began to learn industrial photography. And we photographed all sorts of various things, from factory engineering, factories, products and so forth, lathes, milling machines, railway engines, all manner of things. And that's where I cut my teeth on industrial photography. [00:16:56] Sean: And, and Stuart, what sort of, um, equipment would you be using in those days? not  [00:17:01] Stuart: so ha!  [00:17:02] Sean: but how  [00:17:03] would you be lighting these spaces in those days  [00:17:05] Stuart: um The equipment that we were using was always, almost always, whole plate, six a half, eight by, eight and a half, six a half, uh, folding field cameras. when I started, we [00:17:29] were on glass plates. But then the advent of film came in. And this was obviously much lighter stuff to carry around. And every, exposure had to count. Now in today's terms, where you press the button and pick the best out of however many, all we used to do was a duplicate at the most. So we used to There was a variation in the exposure or the aperture setting, and that was the only difference the two exposures. [00:18:19] So what we used to do was develop one side of the, uh, the double dark slides, see what they were like, if they wanted a little bit more or a bit less development, that was applied to second side. And, don't know whether you've ever heard of the expression of, um, developing by, uh, vision. But we used to have a very dim green light, and the sensitive film. [00:18:59] was not, uh, sensitive to the green light.  [00:19:03] Paul: All right.  [00:19:04] Stuart: But you had to be in the darkroom for ten minutes for your eyes to become adjusted, and you could then see absolutely every detail of the, the development process. And when the highlights started to you, to, To show a dark mark through the back of the antihalation backing, then the development was just about right, if but if you wanted a little bit more contrast, then you just pushed it on. If it had been a dull day, a dull, miserable day, then you pushed the development on a little bit further. [00:19:49] Sean: And  [00:19:49] Stuart: you've asked  [00:19:50] Sean: be, how would you be lighting some of these scenes? I'm very intrigued at that  [00:19:53] Stuart: I  [00:19:53] Sean: that  [00:19:53] Stuart: about to say that. [00:19:54] Um, for big areas, we used to use flash powder. And a little bit of flash powder goes a long way, believe me. But it was pretty dangerous stuff. And um, I remember we photographed a wedding on one occasion at the Majestic Hotel Harrogate. And there were 450 people. at the reception and they wanted a photograph to show as many of the people as possible. So we put the whole plate camera on a table stood up there with tray into which I poured flash powder. [00:20:38] Now then, this was actuated. with a percussion cap, like we used to have in little [00:20:46] hand pistols for toys. and when you pulled the release catch, that ignited the cap, [00:20:56] that ignited the flash powder. [00:21:00] So, the exposure was only going to be once. One exposure. [00:21:07] And so, the photographer I was with, he said, right everybody. Look this way, and I want to be making sure that everybody keeps still. [00:21:21] I'm going to count five for you, but don't move until I've finished counting. [00:21:29] So the idea was to take the sheath out of the slide. With having put a cap over the lens, shutter, just an open lens with a cap or a lid on the front. [00:21:46] And the technique was to take the cap off hold it in front of the lens, so that that allowed the vibration or any vibration in the camera to settle down and then take the exposure. the idea was count 1, 2, 3, 4, then take the cup off. And on four I ignited the flash gun and then the cup went on and the guy that I was worth put the sheath back and said, right, let's get out of here quick. The reason for that was that you got the brightness, got the, the buildup of the available lights. then it's just topped off, illuminated with the flash, not a very big one, I hasten to add. But the significance of flash powder was that there was a flame which simply went upwards.  [00:23:00] And that was it, that was all there was to be seen. But, it produced smoke, which used to go into, onto the ceiling, and it would roll across the ceiling, carrying with it the grains of the flash powder, which had obviously changed colour from [00:23:24] silver [00:23:25] To yellow, that was okay. But when the waiters came to move the, uh, soup plates, what they found was a white circle on a yellow  [00:23:47] cloth. [00:23:51] And you can also visualize the fact that a lot of people had a lot of. Little flash powder grains in their hair  [00:24:01] as well. well. By the time that [00:24:04] By the time that this happened, we were halfway back to Leeds.  [00:24:08] Sean: Very good.  [00:24:09] Stuart: But this this was the scourge of flash powder because you could only take one shot. Because the place used to, the whole of the place, the factory, if you using a large amount of powder, made a lot of smoke, and it just collected on the ceiling and it obscured it, the vision. So, we used to use photo floods, these were overrun pearl lamps, we used to have six on a button. And if the subject was still, we could go around on a long lead and paint scene with light. And that was, and that became established, So flash balder started to go, [00:25:08] Paul: Right. [00:25:10] Stuart: but you see, at this time, flash bulbs hadn't really got going. [00:25:17] The GEC flash bulbs, which were foil filled, were about the only thing that was available. Um, in this, in this country. And they were sympathetic. [00:25:31] And the GEC Warehouse in Leeds on one occasion, uh, a consignment of, um, bulbs came, [00:25:43] Uh, [00:25:44] in a, in a case, and, uh, one of the attendants decided that he would test them to see whether they were all alright. [00:25:54] So [00:25:54] he fired one. [00:25:57] and 50 flashbulbs, because [00:26:01] they had to be in contact with each other. If they were separate, it didn't work, but when you put them side by side, they were sympathetic. [00:26:11] Paul: What [00:26:11] happens?  [00:26:13] Stuart: Well, the whole lot  [00:26:14] went  [00:26:14] off. A whole box full of, um, flashbulbs, and they weren't cheap at that time.  [00:26:22] So  [00:26:23] really,  [00:26:23] that was, that was the basic equipment which we used to [00:26:29] use. [00:26:31] And [00:26:32] it was all, [00:26:33] it [00:26:34] was all, uh, 8x6. [00:26:37] Sometimes it was 10x8. [00:26:41] The, uh, the railway engines, which we used to photograph for the Hunsley's Engine Company [00:26:47] and hudderswell Clark's in Leeds, we always used to use 10x8 for those. Now it was interesting there because we used to have a particular date for going to photograph them. And [00:27:04] they were all finished up in black, white and grey paint. Because that served the cost of retouching the finished print. [00:27:15] There was very little photography done at that time. Apart from views and so forth. But anything that meant a machine, a lathe the, or whatever, it always had to go to the process retoucher who airbrushed the reflections or put one or two, put a shadow in or whatever it is. It was a highly skilled, uh, process. Uh, process, retoucher with white lines and so forth. But the interesting thing about these two railway engine companies was. that they only painted them on one side, the side that was being photographed. [00:27:59] Paul: And [00:28:01] Stuart: we used to go back to the studio, develop them straight away, yes, the negatives are alright, as soon as that happened, then they would strip all the black, white, and grey paint off and finish up in the customer's required, required colours. [00:28:23] Paul: Wow. [00:28:25] So, so the bit that strikes me is retouching has been part of this art  [00:28:30] Sean: a long time. Well,  [00:28:33] Paul: I mean, think about [00:28:33] it, right? Because we, there's a lot of debate about retouching and post production. That rages. Even now, but when you think about a manufacturer only painting one side of a train, they're painting it colours that repro well, and then it's being handed on to a retoucher, retouching's been going on for a very long time.  [00:28:51] Stuart: Well of course, everything at that time was, was, um, retouched, and most portraits finish up with complexions like billiard balls. There were no shadows, etc.  [00:29:03] Paul: haha, It's like nothing's changed!  [00:29:07] Stuart: Indeed. Indeed, and, and when people speak now in condemnation of, oh well you can see the retouching and so forth, well the only thing that you have to do now is to make sure that it doesn't show. But, it was, really when Photoshop and the like came in on the scene, this was manna from heaven. [00:29:32] Paul: Yeah. [00:29:33] Stuart: Because it cut out the need to do the work on the actual print. To retouch transparencies was a rather different process altogether. [00:29:48] And it was  [00:29:49] Sean: difficult process to be [00:29:50] Stuart: Oh yes, and very highly skilled. And the firm that I worked for, Giltrous Brothers, who were the photo engravers, they used to retouch twenty, twenty [00:30:02] four, twenty glass plates. Whereby, when you talk about printing today, and I think the, uh, top of the range, uh, Epson, Uh, printer works in, uh, we're printing 11 colors, but the, limited edition photolitho, uh, illustrations were, uh, certainly on, on 13 colors [00:30:36] And from 13 separate plates. All of which were retouched. [00:30:42] Paul: So [00:30:42] the plates were retouched separately?  [00:30:45] Stuart: correct?  [00:30:45] Oh yes.  [00:30:46] Paul: Wow. [00:30:48] Stuart: So [00:30:48] Paul: each of these plates is a black and [00:30:49] white plate that's going to take one color ink? [00:30:52] Sean: Correct. I understood the [00:30:52] Paul: the process right? [00:30:53] Sean: Yeah.  [00:30:54] Stuart: process, right? Retouches were earning more than photographers at any time.  [00:31:01] Sean: It's most interesting to hear this, Stuart, because you come into my era when I was learning photography and the discipline of the transparency, the 4x5 and 8 inch transparency, and of course there, retouching was an anathema because if we retouched the transparency, we started to lose some quality. [00:31:17] Stuart: Yes. we to, it was a period of photography, I think, more than ever, when we had to get everything right in the camera because the client demanded the transparency. Whereas the processes you were using enabled this retouching method, which is very, very interesting. [00:31:29] There are certain elements, as you well know, with your, even with your skills, whereby there are elements which cannot be lit out or exposed out or  [00:31:43] whatever. And there has to be some artwork, or whatever you call it, retouching done. And at the end of the day, most of the photography which, which I was taking and involved with, was going to be reproduced. And so if it was retouched at source, before it got to the retouchers on the reproduction, uh, side. [00:32:11] of the plate making, then that was, it was as we wanted it rather than what they thought it should be.  [00:32:20] Paul: As ever photographers being control freaks.  [00:32:24] Stuart: Well, after something like two to three years at Picards, by which time I got a fair amount of idea of what's going on.  [00:32:37] Um, I decided that, um, I ought to seek pastures new and became a staff photographer for the 600 Group Of Companies just on the west side of Leeds. And there I photographed secondhand machinery, which they used to recondition and I photographed the, lathes and milling machines, drilling machines and that sort of thing, and they were then printed on and they, all these were taken on the half plate camera, which is half the size of a whole plate camera, obviously, um, and, um. they were made on 6x4 glossy prints, and these were distributed by the appropriate department to potential buyers. And I was there for three and a half years. But I'd got to the stage where I'd photographed everything that didn't move, and I was becoming rather dissatisfied with life. So I  [00:33:49] Paul: Do you mind if I ask how old are you at this point? [00:33:53] Stuart: this point? Well, let me see, I would be about, twenty, twenty four, twenty, what, twenty five. Right. Twenty five, six.  [00:34:03] Paul: Right. [00:34:04] Stuart: I was dissatisfied because I didn't think I was getting anywhere. [00:34:09] Sean: So you were, you were ambitious, really, to take your photography on to another level and, and have more control, would you say, over what you were doing [00:34:16] Stuart: you could say that, yes. just say to work for yourself, Stuart?  [00:34:20] Sean: The Thing is that the, the company that I worked for. was part of the A. H. Leach corporate, uh, company at Brighouse, which was, uh, a very big organization with studios in Cambridge, Manchester, Glasgow. Um, and the prospects of moving to any one of those places was stalemate because they were well staffed was no flexibility for moving, and so I thought, well the only way to see whether I am a capable photographer was to make it on my own, see if I could make it on my own. And in fact started the business in some premises now occupied by the local library. down at the bottom end of the village. [00:35:19] Stuart: But this was going on for some time, two or three years, and then the question of getting married. [00:35:27] came into the reckoning, and this house in which we're sitting now became available, and very suitable because the front room lounge in which we now sit became my portrait studio. [00:35:46] And across the top of the window, which is facing opposite you, was a bank of Kodak, um, lighting with five, four 500 watt lamps in each for general illumination. [00:36:04] And So then I had a spotlight which is, was behind you for lighting the hair and then a fill in light on this side. And by this time, we'd moved on to two and a quarter square, real film cameras, 12 on 120. [00:36:22] I hadn't really at that stage got into, back into the industrial scene because I was doing social photography, weddings and portraits, to build up a reserve of capital to move on to buying more advanced equipment. [00:36:44] And the changes at that time were considerable. 5x4 were on the, on the fringe. At the time that I'm speaking of, German 9x12 plate cameras were still being used for press photography. And there they were, on the touchline at Heddingley, these, the local press photographers, with box of 9x12 single shot plates freezing to death, and um, and that's it, one off shots. [00:37:26] But I missed the point earlier on, I think, of saying that uh, every shot had to count. And, over the years, that has influenced me considerably, because I've always made sure that everything was right before I took the exposure. [00:37:48] And whatever the, whatever the occasion was, whether it was an industrial scene or a social scene, you look at the subject before you, to begin with, and then start looking round and see what's happening in the background. Because, if you do that, it saves retouching, and that's an absolute classical instance of today, where people, when Photoshop came, what about so and so? [00:38:22] Oh, don't bother about that, I'll take it out. I can take it out in Photoshop, and I've heard speakers come to the Institute and talk about, Oh, I do this and do that, and I've said, well, how long does it take you to do that? Oh, well, a couple of hours or so, like that. It could have all been addressed in the taking, and that would have been eliminated. [00:38:51] And when you talk about 2 or 3 hours retouching, well how much do you charge for, oh well I'll throw it all in. [00:39:00] And the number of people who I've heard say that, oh well I'll just include it. I think they've got a bit wise to it now because Uh, any extramural activities are chargeable by the hour, and, uh, and it's certainly in need of that, but what I would say to any in, up and coming photographer, they need to sure of what it is that they're taking to avoid having to retouch it afterwards, albeit that in today's terms, [00:39:40] With the relaxation of dress and disciplines and so forth, Um, I don't think it quite matters. And so, I think as far as today is concerned, I would find it difficult to go back to being a photographer in today's terms. Because, I can sit in a restaurant or in a room, somebody's room or whatever, and I'm looking at the, the vertical lines of the structure to, to see whether that line lines up with that, and it's surprising how often I can see lines that are out, even buildings. [00:40:27] I could see buildings that, that were not, um, vertical. completely vertical and line up with the I sit there looking at the streets and doors and windows and it's very, it's very difficult to get out of that discipline into the much more free and relaxed attitude towards photography today. [00:40:56] I don't know whether I, whether you would agree with that or not. [00:41:00] Sean: Stuart, I would agree with what you're saying and it's like the photographer's eye, your whole life has been trained by your eye viewing scenes and viewing situations and it's quite impossible to turn that off really. [00:41:10] That's part of you and how you see things, so no, I couldn't agree with you more. So Stuart, tell me, you obviously, the room we're in now was your studio, and you're in here, you're now married, you're doing more social photography, as you said, and obviously starting to make money. Where did the business go from there? [00:41:29] What was your sort of next stage really? Because I believe you had another studio then in the village, is that correct?  [00:41:35] Stuart: The children grew up and we were running out of room space, [00:41:40] So an opportunity came in the main street down the road to take over a building, um, which I was able to use the ground floor and turn it into a studio, a reception studio and darkroom. And, uh, during that time, I was doing, um, mainly social photography, but also, I had got associated with the local newspaper which circulated in this area, and I virtually, without being on the strength, I virtually became the staff photographer for the whole of the circulation area. [00:42:32] So on a Saturday in the summer, it was not unknown for me to do perhaps 11 cover 11 eventualities such as garden parties, a flower show, etc. and also fit in a complete wedding. So, [00:43:00] Paul: So,  [00:43:00] Stuart: so [00:43:01] my time, my, my mind used to work like a, like [00:43:07] a clock, uh, a precision clock, because it was, it was timed to the nth degree. Um, what time is the, uh, what time is the wedding? How long will the service be? Where's the reception? And I had a mental, uh, mental, uh, memo of the distance from here to there, and the length of time it takes to get from, from there to there. [00:43:36] And, as far as the, as the newspaper is concerned, I tried to take a different picture. at each occasion, so that we don't want the same picture of women serving tea, uh, for the WI, the church of this and that and the other. Um, I tried to make a different picture. So that training and experience fitted me in good stead for when the industrial scene tailed off. [00:44:15] Sean: I've just, uh, I've just, um, picked a photograph up here. [00:44:18] Stuart's got quite a number of his photographs in the room with us here. It's a very nice PR, press type shot here of Harry Ramsden's Fish and Chips shop, and it's got a very 1980s mobile phone and the world famous in this part of the world, Nora Batty which some of you may know from a famous last of the summer wine tv show and i think this is to do with the flotation of Harry Ramsden because it became quite a successful company didn't it so talk a little bit about this photograph Stuart it's very captivating and i think very very well executed [00:44:50] Stuart: Well, the story as you've already identified, I'm surprised that you have, because that was when they went public. And, uh, the, story was the Harry Ramsden fish restaurant, which, it was the center of all activities, just on the outskirts of Leeds, and they, as you said, they got Nora Batty there, who was a very leading personality at the time, and, of course, telephones, you can see the size of that, that mobile telephone, which is about the size of a half of a brick. Um, this was the, um, the story. And the essential thing was to locate the seed of the picture with the name of the, the company. across the top of the, the print or the format. [00:45:46] Sean: And if I could just butt in there Stuart just to say sorry to do this but I think it's important to get this across that I've just picked this image up and the story has come straight across to me. We've got the mobile phone. You've got the Financial Times, which is holding the fish and chips. You've got the sort of banker type chap behind her. [00:46:02] It just shows the skill that's gone into that picture, that an image is telling that story to me all these years later. Because I presume this photograph is 30 or 40 years old, Stuart. Am I correct there?  [00:46:12] Stuart: It's quite a long time. And the essential thing about that picture, uh, Sean, is that however much a sub editor chops it down. There was always be something of the story there, because the nearest or the furthest down that they could chop it would be across the top of the bloke's head, but it would still say Harry on the left hand side. [00:46:42] And, and, that was the, the art of, at that time, of getting the story across for public relations. Include the company's name or the brand in the background somewhere so that it had to be seen and it couldn't be taken out.  [00:47:03] Paul: I ask you a question? Have you always loved being a [00:47:06] Stuart: being a photographer? Oh, absolutely.  [00:47:09] I wouldn't do anything else. Um, had a very enjoyable life in every aspect of it. And I'll tell you one thing about it, and Sean will agree with me on this. Photography, photographers are in a very privileged position, and they don't realize how much so. Because so often, they are in, at the ground floor of activity. A conference, a confidential conference projecting the aims of the company. [00:47:46] I was in a company when I was in the conference actually, when the whole of the regional bank managers were in a conference at Harrogate, and they were told then, that we were going to dispose of the buildings, our assets, and I photographed several banks which were up for sale and they were simply being sold off. The managers didn't know. What's the photograph for? Oh, it's just for the estate. I knew what they were, why they were selling it. It was going on the market. [00:48:25] You know all these little convenience grocery shops and so on, on filling stations, I was in the conference there for all the ESSO managers in the region, when the the project was put to them that we're going to put these little kiosks, or whatever it is, and, and, and there I was. Um, and we were privy to information that was light years ahead of the actual official announcement. [00:48:59] Paul: Yeah. [00:48:59] Stuart: Metahall, for instance, um, I was in the conference when they were talking about what their footprint was needed to be to make that viable. And there are several instances such as that. And you do get it to a more personal level, where we've got, uh, injuries, personal injuries to photograph. [00:49:26] Oh well, what about Snow? [00:49:29] Well, [00:49:29] And you just can't get involved with passing that or repeating that information. [00:49:35] Paul: Yeah. [00:49:36] Stuart: It's confidential. And as I said, photographers are so often right in the heart of things. And I'm sure, Sean, that in today's terms, you'll be more exposed to it than I was with them. [00:49:51] Sean: Well, very much so Stuart. [00:49:52] Very much so. Yeah. I mean, it's, I can't tell you how many NDAs I've signed in my career, so, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.  [00:50:00] So Stuart, so you've now got the studio, the, the biggest studio now on in the, in the, in the village here. And you're obviously doing your social, your weddings, you're obviously doing a lot of PR. [00:50:11] Did you start to do, did the industrial photography come back a little bit more as well? [00:50:15] Stuart: Yes But I was, I was extremely fortunate and the odd thing about it was that the connection came through the, uh, the work of the local paper because three miles from here was the control room for the Central Electricity Generating Board and they were having an open night and the local paper was invited to to cover the, the event. So I went along and took a few photographs of whatever was going on and had a bit of a look around the place and subsequently then I was approached by their, their public relations department for the northeast region. Would I take a photograph of something else?  [00:51:13] From that stemmed the work, which really became the mainstay of my activities with the Central Electricity Generating Board. [00:51:26] Again, I wasn't on the staff, but I was vir, virtually became the staff photographer for the Northeast Region. And the amazing thing is that here I was, photographing power stations, the grand openings of power stations, starting with Thorpe Marsh, which was the, down in Doncaster, which had two 400 megawatt sets, which were the f The Forerunner, they Thorpe Marsh was really the testbed for the, um, the 400 megawatt stations which followed. [00:52:13] And there again, this was being in on the ground floor whenever there was a fault down there or whatever. or a problem, um, I was called in to, to, to take the photographs.  [00:52:27] Sean: So [00:52:28] Stuart, would you say that, um, he's very interesting listening to this about how your business built. Would you say that networking was a great part of building your business? [00:52:37] Stuart: Networking, well they call it networking now, and it's, it's contacts really. And I think, I'm sure that you'll agree that being in the right place at the right time, and that really applies to anything, the theatrical world, et cetera, and, not necessarily knowing the people, the right people, but getting on with them, and being able to mix with people, and behave in a way that people expect you to. So  [00:53:10] Sean: Would you have any sort of advice or tips for a young photographer or somebodnew breaking into photography and how to. build a business? Have you anything to add there at all?  [00:53:22] Stuart: I think that in today's terms, it is extremely difficult for photographers. And I'll tell you why, because I think that the opportunities which I just mentioned are remote, probably remote in the extreme. Social photography is something else, and the, the website, and all the various media opportunities, with which I am unfamiliar and have no knowledge of because I've not had the need to do it. But I am aware because I look at what people are doing. And that's another instance of success. Of keeping an eye on what other people are doing. If you admire anybody's particular work, then that sets the example and the criteria to work to. But as far as going back to contact is concerned, I have the distinct impression now that not only photography, but everything now stems from public Relations and I don't know whether you've noticed it or not, but if there's, if there are any problems, on the one hand, of people's behavior or their activities, or whatever it may be, adversely or favorably, and the promotion of brands and industries and business, it all seems to stem now very much from the agencies.  [00:55:12] If you read question of the so and so company are going to introduce this product or [00:55:22] service or whatever it is, or they've taken over a business. the [00:55:27] statements attributed to the managing director or chief executive or accountant or whatever it is, right across the board, a great many of the people that are being quoted, I would suggest, are not capable of speaking and thinking the way that the statement appears in print. And it raises sometimes, a lot of suspicion as to just what is behind this thing. This business with the post office. It's full of it. And so the point that I'm making is that advertising agencies, that's another one, the advertising agencies are in direct contact with the, um, with the brand or the company. [00:56:24] And so the opportunities of the photographers, in my judgment, are minimized because of the hold. that the advertising agencies have on the job.  [00:56:43] And  [00:56:43] they,  [00:56:45] they will say who they want and who should be employed. They may think them best or otherwise. And it also then comes down to, rights, and I bet you are right in the thick of this, that, uh, you are the, the favorite bloke on the, on the block, and whilst ever that person is engaged in that company, your situation is secure. But suddenly, if he goes to pastures new, and they've already got their established photographers, as far as you're concerned, you've lost that company. [00:57:28] Sean: Very  [00:57:28] Stuart: company.  [00:57:29] Sean: very true. Yeah, yeah.  [00:57:30] Stuart: Is it true? [00:57:31] Paul: But there's always opportunities with these things, I mean, in the end, there are more photographs being created today than ever historically, I think you're right about the structures of advertising agencies, though this isn't my world, when someone moves on, there's an opportunity, and there's always the opportunity to stay as well, there is risk, of course there's risk, but equally, you could be the guy he takes with you. [00:57:54] So how do you make that happen? [00:57:56] Sean: Well, I think it's very apt because I've had two or three key clients in my career that have moved numerous times, you know, seriously big companies and they've taken me with them, yeah. And not only that, in some cases, they've taken me to their new company. And it's gone well. They've then moved on to another company and taken me with them, but the company they've left still retains me. [00:58:19] So there's a benefit that way. But I think it's really, I greatly believe in the, in the networking, keeping in touch with people, making an effort at all times. And I think, I know we've got today's digital world and there's lots of advantages to that, but also personal contact I think is still really, really important. [00:58:38] Relationships and personal contact. [00:58:40] Stuart: What you are saying is, is correct. And I remember an uncle of mine who was a milkman and, had a, a big dairy, and he once said to my mum, oh, well, it's so and so, he's come again, a rep has come. It's been three times, so really it deserves an order. [00:59:03] There's a  [00:59:04] lot  [00:59:05] Paul: in [00:59:05] Stuart: a lot in [00:59:06] truth in that, backs and it backs up what you were just saying, of keeping in contact, and, of course as far as advertising is concerned, or mail shots. the first one they take no notice of and throw away. The second one, oh well, there's another one from this so and so. The third one, it is usually reckoned that the person will be activated by that And so, as you said, keeping in contact is very important. [00:59:42] But I'm bound to say that breaking in a lot of it is by accident, but certainly the persistence of contact is very important. [00:59:56] And when you consider, you see, over the years we have thought of Only the Institute, or I have, and I've done, I've put a lot of time and work into it, as other people have, without which we might have been a lot more better off or a lot wealthier than we in fact are. [01:00:20] Sean: Stuart, did, did, when we say the institute, it's the British Institute Professional Photography we're talking about here. And I, I'm a member too, and that's how I met Stuart through the institute. Through your long career as a photographer, how important did you find the, The Institute and the ability to mix and talk and, and, and work, you know, get information from other photographers, I suppose. [01:00:41] How important did you find that  [01:00:44] Stuart: Photographers, um, are, as you know, very, very much individualists. they work a lot on their own, and when you consider that there are probably 7 or 10, 000 practicing photographers in this country, and so few of them belong to anything.  [01:01:10] It makes you wonder how all those people survive. but, it really comes back to, to, uh, what we were saying earlier, of contact, those people must be in contact with other people. [01:01:29] Their reputation goes before them, obviously, and when you consider the situation with the Royals, for instance, who, from time to time, have official photographs taken, um, by names that I've never heard of, where you would perhaps expect that they are members of the, this organization, the Royal Photographic Society, as a case in point. Um, these people are not members of them and so how they I'm not talking about the Litchfields, I'm talking about the other people who officially, officially photograph, uh, in recent times, the, um, William and Kate's family, the, their birthday or whatever anniversary it was. So, those people, um, are plowing their own furrow. [01:02:33] But going back to the the meaning of the institute, whereby people are individual, the opportunity over the past years was for all these individuals to rub shoulders with each other and the networking that went on then. For instance, you go to a meeting and you're chatting away, and a couple of blokes have a common, common interest, uh, uh, or they're equal practitioners, but suddenly, one of them comes up with a problem that he can't answer, and so he's able to phone this guy in Nottingham, or wherever, because he is not in competition down the street. He can't ask the guy down the street how to tackle the question, but the man in Nottingham will willingly bare his soul for you, and keeping in contact with, um, with other people to solve problems where they have them is incredibly useful, in my judgment.    NOTE: to see the rest of the transcript, head over to https://masteringportraitphotography.com (it exceed the normal limit for podcast texts!)

Welcome to VRTAC-QM Manager Minute! Today, we're joined by Brandy McOmber, Project Director, Ashley Banes, Counselor Specialist, and Paul Fuller, Counselor Specialist, all representing Iowa General. Our focus is Iowa's Blueprint for Change DIF Grant and its creative use of the collective impact approach. This initiative aims to amplify opportunities for competitive integrated employment through strategic partnerships and pilot programs. Its overarching mission? To phase out sub-minimum wage employment in Iowa and revolutionize the career paths of individuals considering such options. As 14(C) certificate holders decline, many individuals find themselves without employment, often spending their days at home or in day habilitation programs. Stay tuned to learn more about how they're transforming lives with DIF!   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music}   Brandy: Making sure that we have a focus across the state, that competitive integrated employment is the first and preferred outcome for all individuals with disabilities.   Paul: We want to partner with the CRPs, the school districts, mental health providers, and we want to be able to provide customized employment or ISPY at a much younger age in the high school.   Ashley: Our work group has looked at the direct support professional registered apprenticeship that already exists in the state of Iowa, and that's registered, and we're looking at what can we take from that and really kind of DIF it.   Paul: We're DIF'ing it.   Brandy: who wants to dive in with us and DIF it?   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Brandi McOmber project director Ashley Banes, counselor specialist, focused on the apprenticeship program, and Paul Fuller, counselor specialist focused on the transition pilot all with Iowa general. So hey, gang, thanks for joining me in the studio today. So a little background for our listeners. I heard this group talk about their DIF project in a recent CSAVR monthly directors meeting, and they were focused on one aspect of the grant that was centered around the IPS project. And in fact, I thought maybe that was the whole thing. And shoot, CSAVR already stole them and stole my thunder. But I learned from talking to the team that there was so much more to their grant to unpack. So we are actually going to not focus on IPS, and we're going to pick up where they left off. Now, I've really enjoyed focusing on the DIF projects from each grant year, and they each have such a unique emphasis, and the ideas that are generated from one state can really be transplanted across the country. So as a reminder to our listeners, this DIF grant series is called the SWTCIE Subminimum Wage to Competitive Integrated Employment. And the purpose of this round of grants is to increase the opportunity for those SWTCIE program participants, which includes students and youth with disabilities seeking subminimum wage employment and potential VR program applicants, or VR eligible individuals with disabilities who are employed or contemplating employment at sub minimum wage to obtain competitive, integrated employment. All right, that was a mouthful. So let's dig in. Now I know our listeners are always super interested about your backgrounds. Like how do people get into VR? How do you even get here? So I'd like to understand each of your journeys into getting into VR. So, Brandy I'm going to start with you.   Brandy: Sure, thanks, Carol. To start out, I've worked with vocational rehabilitation services for 16 years now. Originally, I became interested in VR, as I previously worked at a facility with Transition Youth who were adjudicated as delinquent or CHINA or in other words, Child In Need of Assistance. So these were youth that had, you know, a lot of things to overcome in terms of transitioning into the world of work. So my specific role there was to help them come up with a plan. So in other words, where are they going to work? Where are they going to move out as they age out of the system? And through that process, I was able to interact with vocational rehabilitation in the state of Iowa. And it really got me interested in how much more of an impact I could have. So I applied and they accepted me. And then when I became a VR counselor, I really got interested in the other components of the broader state level work and applied and became a policy resource manager. And that gave me a much broader understanding of where we're at in the system, uniquely as a VR entity. With that coming into the DIF grant that we'll talk about today, it was really kind of the next level or the next step in the journey of moving from just our internal policy to how we can affect systems change throughout the state of Iowa. So that's really kind of my background.   Carol: That's excellent. And that really positioned you well for being project director on this DIF. Very cool. So Ashley, let's go to you. How did you meander into VR.   Ashley: Absolutely. And I think meandering is a great way of honestly describing it. I have worked within the state for about 14 years now, but I actually started within the Department of Corrections, and I hung out there for the first ten years of my career. Within that, the first six years, I ran our domestic violence program and carried a caseload of about 1000 clients when I did that. And the last four years that I was there, I really started focusing on mental health barriers, substance abuse barriers. And so that led me into a very specific program, which was our drug court program, and that is a prison diversion program. So that is the last stop somebody can kind of redeem themselves in before they get sent to prison. And the reason is I got super interested in that. My passion comes from actually very personal experience. And I lost my mom to suicide when I was 18 due to her severe mental health. So when that happened, that really left me asking questions of what supports are out there. And that really opened my eyes to see the lack of said supports in our community and in our state. So I hung out with in drug court for about four years, ran that program, and I started wanting to branch out because I was helping this certain population. And I was like, I know there's more out there. I know that I could be doing more. And I just felt like I was needed in more places. So a Voc Rehab counselor position opened and, the same county actually that I was running our drug court program in so I took a shot and applied for that and was offered that position. And so I jumped on that, I was  a Voc Rehab counselor, just carrying a normal caseload. for about a year, just over a year, and within that year is where I got into the IPS program that you touched on earlier that we already kind of talked about in our monthly meeting that we had. From there, the DIF grant counselor specialist position came up and I was like, this is really a way for me to take what I'm good at and the areas that I don't have a lot of experience in, like for example, being part of a grant was not anything I'd ever done in my life before, but I really wanted to have that experience. So I was like, this is my shot. So I applied for it and I honestly thought in my interview I was like, there's no way I got this. There's no way this is the worst interview of my life. And lo and behold, I got offered the position. So that's really kind of what got me in here. And being able to be kind of part of that top level systems change and being able to provide that support to my coworkers who are struggling with certain areas, that's really what drives me, and being able to take my passion and apply that. So that's how I meandered in here.   Carol: Well, first up, I'm very sorry about your mom.   Ashley: Thank you.   Carol:  In that situation, your background, I can imagine they snatched you up in one second because your background is so uniquely important to VR and having the mental health challenges that many of our customers face, that's been tough for counselors to handle and to work with. So I can see why you've been a valuable add to the team for sure. So, Paul, last but not least, how did you come into VR?   Paul: Meandering might be a good way to say it too, but my passion and my background here really lies in transition. And so I started my transition journey, I guess, in the Waterloo Community Schools here, the local school district, and I worked with individuals with disabilities in a transition program that partnered with Voc Rehab. And so I had 4 or 5 years of experience and then decided to apply. Then with VOC Rehab when a counselor position came open. That's been about ten and a half years ago. Best move I ever made. Love working with Iowa Voc Rehab. My coworkers here and everybody we get to help. So over those ten years, over the past ten years, I actually oversaw two transition programs in the local community where we assisted individuals with disabilities all the way from freshman through their transition into adulthood, all the way up to age 25. That was really interesting and fulfilling to me to see the growth that you would get from students and that you would see them obtain their goals and really achieve milestones for themselves that that were just amazing, watching them grow and learn and become adults, so to speak. And then, like Ashley, I saw the position with the DIF grant come open. Did not think I was going to get it after my interview. You know, those are the type of interviews that you end up getting the job when you think you bombed. But very fortunate to be here, part of a great team. Yeah, about 17 years total in transition, a little over ten here with Voc Rehab. And really looking forward to the things that we have going for us for the DIF grant.   Carol: That's good stuff. I always love understanding how people get into VR, because we often come from a very different journey and then evolve and come into this role. I can see why all three of you are on this grant. That is amazing. Brandy, can you give people a little picture of Iowa General? Like kind of how many staff are in the agency? How many people do you serve? I know Iowa is my neighbor, but I always think of, you know, a lot of cornfields, are there, any big metro areas? What's the lay of the land down there?   Brandy: Iowa, we currently have approximately 250 staff within VR. So decent size, but definitely a lot smaller than, you know, some of our bigger states like Texas, we are obviously a separated state. So we have Iowa General, and then the Iowa Department for the Blind, and we work closely with them in partnership. We do have some metro areas that are around the state, like Des Moines is one of our major metro areas. We also then have very rural areas where we see major needs in terms of a lack of transportation of available providers. So it's really interesting in that, you know, it sounds like it's all rural, but we definitely have a really good mixture of those different urban versus rural areas, which is interesting, but also was perfect for a grant because we can take a look at how we're affecting change in those major areas, and really understanding that we need to have a different approach for different areas in the state of Iowa and in terms of individuals, we serve for Iowa general alone in program year 2022, which would be July 1st, 2022 through June 30th, 2023. We served approximately 7900 potentially eligible students, as well as about 13 almost 14,000 eligible clients, for a total of almost 22,000. So decent numbers, but once again, definitely not as broad as some areas. For transition alone, we served around 14,000, a little over that, which would be a combination of that almost 8000 potentially eligible and, you know, 6500 eligible transition students. So we have a decent amount of clients that we serve. And we're very focused on transition in the state of Iowa. So we like to really push different transition programs. As Paul had mentioned, we have a lot of what we call TAP programs, Transition Alliance Programs that we've spoken nationally about as well, but definitely an emphasis on transition as well. So that's kind of the makeup of our state.   Carol: I like it, it's bigger than I thought. I didn't realize that. So that is good. I know when I was reading your project narrative and you had sent that, now that I know you wrote it in six weeks or less, Holy smokes, it was really good and I can totally see why RSA said, yeah, we're funding this project really well written. And you titled it The Iowa Blueprint for Change. And I was very intrigued by all of the research. You looked at a report that the US Government Accountability Office did, or they often are known as the GAO, and they had written a report back in 21 and submitted it to Congress about the 14(C) programs. I thought that was interesting. And you also had another report that was by the Advisory Committee on Increasing Competitive Integrated Employment. So you wove in these pieces to kind of lay the picture of what was happening in Iowa and how that aligned. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think it's interesting to note what your state is facing regarding sub minimum wage and kind of the lay of the land. We know over the course of many years across the country, some states have now kind of banned sub-minimum wage. And other people, they're all in different places on that. So can you kind of weave that together a little bit?   Brandy: Absolutely. I would preface it to say that, yes, we definitely made a late decision for applying for the grant, but it was absolutely a community effort. We really needed to rely on community members from different agencies and groups and entities to do it, because we decided so late. So I really need to give credit to those community members. That really helped us, because without them, the complexity of what we wanted to do would never be achieved in terms of an application. So there's really a couple of different reasons for the name that we selected for Iowa Blueprint for Change, and the name itself was actually selected by one of the community members that assisted us in writing it, because as we were kind of dumping data into a Google document, that would help us to really outline what every agency that was participating, what their thoughts would be, and what they see as the needs. We really identified that through the reports that you mentioned. It would really give us that blueprint to move forward. And so there's a couple of different reasons. Like I said, for the name, first of all, the report from the Government Accountability Office or GAO, as they're typically known, was really about identifying 32 factors that they had indicated that really influenced the transition of people from different environments like subminimum wage into competitive, integrated employment. So those 32 factors really range from things such as what is the individual's family or their own unique perspective in terms of what could happen. So what are their fears? What is the information that they know? What state policies are available within the state to kind of have some teeth, if you will, into making sure that employment first, for instance, is a focus. And also what is the local economy looking like. So those factors helped give us that blueprint. And to be honest, many of the factors that they mentioned really hold true in Iowa, where even though we don't have a large number of 14(C) certificate holders or that sub-minimum wage certificate holders, we recognize that we didn't have a lot. We have a handful, maybe five left. But the broader impact or the broader issue that we run into is that when those sub-minimum wage entities shut down, it really just meant a shift for those individuals not into work, but to sitting at home or to attending adult daycare, or the primary reason was going into day habilitation. And so we knew that that was a much, much broader issue, that when we have thousands and thousands of individuals in day habilitation, that some of which have employment, but many of which do not have competitive, integrated employment, we really knew that we needed to utilize that information as a blueprint to affect change systemically. In the state of Iowa, I would say the second reason that we really wanted to utilize the name Iowa Blueprint for Change was because we came across information related to the Collective Impact Forum, and that's really a cross sector framework that has a belief that if you bring a large number of individuals collectively together, they can make a really broad impact and advance equality if they're working together. So we wanted to utilize that model of collective impact to really focus on what can we have individuals and we're talking individuals from people with lived experience to their parents to parent support groups, educators, community providers, you know, a number of individuals coming together and then separating out the work, saying, how could we get this done in workgroups? So through that, we wanted to create what we would call a blueprint of what do we need to do systemically, like at the policy level, what do we need to do at the agency level? All of those agencies that really have a stake in the game for, or funding employment for individuals with disabilities. What do we need to do at a local, maybe support level, where there's these groups that are specific to people with disabilities, what could they do to affect change and then all the way down to the individual level. So when we come together, we can start to develop that blueprint and say as an individual representing vocational rehabilitation, for instance, I know that we need to commit to if we learn through this grant that, for instance, community providers don't have enough funding, what can we commit to in an actual document that we call our blueprint that would ensure that we have committed to making that change? So we would have these series of blueprints that would really help us to drive and have everyone involved commit to that systems level all the way down to the individual level change. So that really it was a twofold idea in terms of the blueprint, and it really brought together all of those individuals, like I mentioned, to make sure that they're committed. Because if we go into this, we knew that if we didn't have the support of all those other agencies and individuals and really show the face of the people that this change would impact, then we're going to be kind of dead in the water. We're not going to be able to move forward, if you will. So that's really the name that research. Also, that second report from the advisory committee was really also touching on the current atmosphere in Iowa and contributed to that blueprint, because we have made major strides in Iowa to move towards employment, we still face a number of challenges, like a lack of adequate training and support that can build capacity, professional competence across all levels of service provision. We have a lack of or we really did have a lack of a solid base of employment services grounded in evidence based practices. So all of these things combined were things that we knew we needed to utilize as a blueprint to really move the needle, if you will.   Carol: Yeah, I really enjoyed that part of the narrative, I did. Because it was so interesting and I thought about that kind of the lost group, you know, you think, okay, 14(C)'s are going away, this is great. But then there's a whole group of people, like you said, they're sitting at home. So we're missing the boat because they didn't move on into VR or into employment. They're either at home or they're sitting in day habilitation. So I love that you are focused on these folks for sure. Now, I know Iowa has done a lot of work, like, in fact, you guys have been the beneficiaries of several grants. Grants through ODEP and different initiatives that have really led you to this point. So let's dig into your actual projects. So I know there was the IPS component. Let's talk about what are these other elements of the project that you're trying to accomplish?   Brandy: Absolutely. The purpose, as you had mentioned Carol earlier, the purpose of this particular DIF grant was to focus on that movement from sub minimum wage or those contemplating sub minimum wage into competitive integrated employment. And the intent of those DIF grants in general is to, you know, really support innovative activities. And we really took that to heart is how can we be innovative in what we're doing and not just stop at like, let's say a minimum wage job, but how can we achieve more than that? How can we move into economic security for the individuals that we're focused on? So that's really what we tried to do. We wanted to make sure that we touched on that issue of really the sub minimum wage isn't the issue, but how can we achieve success with all of those others, that lost group? As you mentioned. What I liked about the grant is it gave us the opportunity to define what we mean by contemplating sub minimum wage. So we tried to take a much broader approach. It's not somebody just thinking about going into sub minimum wage, but what we believe is it's any of those individuals that are traditionally maybe kind of pushed or it's suggested to them that maybe volunteering or staying at home or going into adult day care or day habilitation is the right approach for you. And so for our contemplating subminimum wage, we talked about what about students with the greatest need in the schools, individuals or students with Social Security benefits based on their own disability. We also opened it up to individuals with more severe mental health disabilities, which we mentioned earlier was Ashley's passion, as well as those individuals who are receiving a service such as waiver or whatever it might be, but aren't focused on employment. So that laid the groundwork to say these are all the individuals we want to serve. From there, we developed the goal to advance and improve systems so that Iowans with disabilities have competitive, integrated employment opportunities that lead to economic security. We developed really six primary objectives that would help us get there. And I know later we can dive into the specific activities, but ultimately, we wanted to first use. What I had mentioned before is that collective impact approach. So our first objective was really about engaging a large collective of diverse stakeholders that can really help us to guide the work. So really the change is happening through them. And, they would use those different systems, change models such as collective impact, diversity, equity and inclusion. You know, that type of thing to support individuals with disabilities, move into CIE or competitive integrated employment. The next area that we wanted to focus on is developing an actual registered apprenticeship and quality pre apprenticeship program that would not only increase the number of direct support professionals in the state of Iowa, because through our comprehensive statewide needs assessment and through talking with all these community members, one of the issues that we had is just a lack of available staff to provide job coaching and all those supports. So not only did we want to increase the number of individuals that could go through a program by creating and serving as an intermediary for an apprenticeship program, but also we wanted to make sure that we try to include and bring individuals with disabilities themselves to serve and to go through those apprenticeship programs. So that was the other objective. The third one is really about making an impact in the transition field because as Paul mentioned, that's his passion and that's my passion too. So how do we do that? What we decided to do is really develop some pilot projects that focus on uninterrupted transition to competitive, integrated employment for youth, especially those youth with the most significant disabilities. So utilizing a combination of technical assistance, grant dollars and training to really start earlier, introduce evidence based practices earlier, and provide training to the educators themselves as to the adult world of support, such as waiver. The fourth thing that we had mentioned that we wanted to do is to really facilitate that increase in individuals with disabilities in the state of Iowa, not only obtaining, but maintaining competitive, integrated employment. So diving into how do we increase opportunities? The next one was to increase the expectation and demand for CIE. So how do we promote this? How do we squash any misconceptions about what working means? For instance, for people on Social Security benefits, how do we involve parents and individuals with disabilities to serve as mentors themselves? You know, how do we affect change in that area? And finally, we wanted to really align those public policies. So develop an employment first policy. And in a technology and first policy that really puts those teeth into making the change in Iowa, as well as getting together those agencies that once again have the ability to fund employment programs and make sure that we really do a deep dive in, a commitment to increasing that funding, if that's what we learn is necessary so that our provider partners aren't really stuck in what we want to provide these great evidence based practices for instance.. But, they're not really achievable because we lose money. So looking at that issue and then just making sure that we have a focus across the state, that competitive, integrated employment is the first and preferred outcome for all individuals with disabilities. So that's really like a broad overview of what we were hoping to achieve.   Carol: You have bitten off a lot. Like in reading that, when I went through it, I went, oh my gosh, like, is this a five year grant or is this a ten year grant? Because there's a lot you're going to do. But I think with especially this particular subject, the systems change foundation of what your proposal talked about is so important because you can't do this unless you really engage all of the various partners to affect this sort of high level of change. Do you have certain targets, like the number of individuals you're trying to, like, what's the big target for the five year completion of your activities?   Brandy: So that's another area that we really bit off, probably more than we can handle. But we wanted to make sure that for outreach purposes, we provided outreach to every single individual in day habilitation, which is thousands and every, you know, student that has disability benefits or that could really qualify as a as an individual. So we had much broader numbers there. So we're talking thousands. But in terms of breaking it down, the great thing about this grant is they connected a national evaluator, which is Mathematica, that comes in and really dives in with us going, okay, that's a big piece. Now let's go. How many of those do you think? You know, through various pilot projects, through the different components of this, can you actually bring in because, you know, some are going to say, I'm not interested. Some are going to maybe, you know, have a different reason for not participating. So then they helped us to say, that's the goal for outreach. We're going to provide information to all of those individuals and also ensure that every one of those individuals that wants to be part of that broad collective that I talked about can participate and even serve in leadership roles. Then, from the number of individuals will actually serve, we have a little over 300 to say, we want to commit to this number of adults and this number of students to actually do it. Which is a lot of individuals as well. When you're talking only five years, especially since the first year is really about getting contracts ready, figuring out your team, trying to identify what you're doing. So definitely we thought big in that area as well.   Carol: Go big or go home, I like it. So, Ashley, you've been sitting here patiently waiting. You're the counselor specialist focused on the apprenticeship program. Can you tell us more about that? Like what do you do? Like what are you focused on? What's your role like?   Ashley: Absolutely. So really my role is just to support and guide our work group that we have that has volunteered their time to be part of this. So our work group consists of different businesses, educators, community providers, individuals with lived experience that want to build this program to ensure that it's successful. So right now, our work group has looked at the Direct support professional registered apprenticeship that already exists in the state of Iowa, and that's registered. And we're looking at what can we take from that. And really kind of DIF it, if that makes sense. So we want to make sure that we're taking what we're seeing within our need and the lack of the workforce that's currently available for those positions, and open that up again. Just really kind of supporting and guiding them. So that started with we branched out and we've talked to different states about some of their pre apprenticeships and registered apprenticeships that they have in the specific area, being able to kind of get the what went well, what didn't go well with them. So we can maybe avoid some of that and not repeat it. Partnering again we've partnered with everybody that I've listed earlier, but then we also have a couple registered apprenticeship gurus with the Iowa Workforce Development Group that have volunteered their time to be part of our group. So they're really like a good sounding board for us. So if we get some crazy ideas and we throw them at the two ladies that we have, they're like, yeah, let's do this. One of the great ideas that we have is stackable credentials. So being able to not just create a registered apprenticeship that gives you the ability to be a direct support professional, but also gives you the ability to advance in the career. And so the individuals that we're targeting that we want to be part of our apprenticeship is obviously the individuals that we're targeting within our grant. So individuals that are really interested in helping others, but maybe just haven't been able to find that right area to specialize that in. So if somebody comes into the registered apprenticeship program and they are wanting to be a supervisor eventually, then we can provide the opportunities and the abilities for them to be trained and have the opportunity to do that. The nice thing about our grant too, is then we can also work with the providers and the businesses that are wanting to support our registered apprenticeship and not only support the business, but offer some incentives with them. So if they're willing to put some teeth behind it, then we'll put some teeth behind it too, because it's going to take all of us working together for this to be successful. Also, the other really cool thing that I think we're building into our registered apprenticeship is specialty areas. So you talked about and Brittany talked about like my specialty area is really mental health. That's something I'm super passionate about. Other individuals have passions with intellectual disabilities, or they have passions with assistive technology areas, just any really area that somebody wants to gain some more knowledge in that they're super interested in, that could benefit them in the workforce, then let's provide them that opportunity. It's a work in progress. Right now we have 24 core competencies that we're reviewing to figure out if we want to leave them as they are, or if we want to alter some of them. And like I said earlier, kind of DIF them. So that's what our work group is doing right now. And again, the beautiful thing about it is we all come from very different backgrounds, so we all bring very different perspectives, which I think is going to make this a very beautiful program at the very end of it.   Carol: Very cool. I like that I haven't heard anybody say that yet, that they're DIF'ing it. And so now we've got it. We've got a new term.   Ashley: Absolutely. Just made that up too. So we're just going to roll with it   Carol: I love it. I like rolling., So Paul, I know you're focused on the transition pilot. Talk a little bit about that. What's going on with that and how's your role with it?   Paul: Yeah, of course, my previous experience, like I had mentioned, was overseeing two transition programs in the schools for the past ten years. After WIOA came out, we did notice, as Brandi had mentioned, students were going to adult daycare, just going home, sitting at home with parents, brother or sister, any kind of family member, and really not getting out in the community and being that competitive, integrated, employed. And so what our goal here is, is that each year for. The next three years, we're actually going to start two pilot projects, and we had created a work group. This would have been last August for the transition piece of the diff. As we say, we're DIF'ing it, of the DIF, the transition work group. And so we have actually been meeting we created a call for interest. And that went out to all CRP's, all AEA's, all LEA's throughout the state. And then we had proposals that were returned to us here over the past month or two. And we actually then took our group, reviewed those proposals and did choose to sites to receive this funding for these pilot programs here this year. We're actually starting those initial meetings with the schools. And so what we want to do is we want to partner with the CRP's, the school districts, mental health providers, and we want to be able to provide customized employment or IPSY at a much younger age in the high school. One thing that I had noticed around the state was that, you know, discovery might start that senior year for a student, that's way too late, way too late. What are you really going to know in the span of a year to make sure that they're going to be successful after their graduation? So what we're really hoping is that we can partner them with the IEP team. Like I mentioned, the mental health providers CRP's the school district teachers and start that discovery process freshman year. Also, some of the outreach where we can have students applying for like waiver services at a much younger age as well too, just because the waiting list right now is 5 or 6 years for some of that. So for additional funding after graduation, we were even talking about going into some of the middle schools to try and make sure that that outreach happens and those services are available, because that's another gap that we saw with students graduating without those waiver services or funding to be available there as that long term support. Also did want to just mention that we want to provide technical assistance to the AEA's and local school districts of one focus for the DIF. As we're DIF'ing it, is assistive technology. And so we want to be able to support job candidates. The school districts, AEA's with our assistive technology funds and how we're able to tie that in, along with the earlier service provision, to have better outcomes at graduation.   Carol: I like it. You're speaking my language with getting at these students younger, because I agree that whole business with senior year too late, too late, too.   Paul: Way too, yeah, way too late.   Carol: You know, getting at kids younger and just it is also and their families to get them exposed to other things. I think about how many of our students never had a job. You know, they aren't babysitting, they aren't mowing the lawn, they aren't doing anything. They don't get any exposure to that. And then all of a sudden, like, you graduate and you're going to go to work, you know, that just it's a foreign thought. And so I really like what you're doing with that and getting at the kids way younger. The IPSY that you said is good stuff. Now, I know as I've talked to grantees, everybody says year one is kind of a bummer because there's always challenges. You got slow starts and stops and all of that. How about any challenges you guys face to your one, or how did you kind of hit those head on?   Brandy: So we absolutely faced obstacles the first year. In fact, I think our motto for the year was that we will always pivot. So in other words, when we were awarded, we had to kind of keep changing the plan a bit to address everything that came our way, if that makes sense. So when we were awarded, the first thing to keep in mind is that typically with these DIF grants, you're notified that you're awarded only a couple of days before the grant year begins. So that is not a lot of preparation and planning time for you to get contracts started, if that makes sense, and to get things rolling. And there's also a really relevant push from RSA to make sure that those funds are expended, that they award you. And that is absolutely not a problem that we have. We'd love to spend the funds to get this rolling. But Iowa is one of, I'm sure, many states that have a very strict procurement process. So one of the things that we ran into right away is that even though we could identify in our grant some of the partners that we wanted to utilize, we still, once we were awarded, had to begin that long process of really making sure that we knew if we had to do an RFP, if we could go to sole source agreements, if we could work with other state entities and get it in faster. And so we ran into some issues where, you know, for instance, there was a provider that really wanted to work with us, but due to some of those procurement issues and due to us being unable to reach an agreement in terms of things like salary, we really then had to pivot and go, well, that part of the plan isn't going to work. So we had to reach out to the community again and say, who wants to dive in with us and DIF it? As Ashley had mentioned, who wants to get in there and really do this because our original plan wasn't going to work. So that's the tough part to keep in mind is that there's that combination of knowing that the applicant process can be very slow. You know, when you're going through an RFP or procurement combined with RSA, who wants you to spend the money? So that's one of the issues that we ran into. And really the thing to keep in mind is this was a front loaded grant. So that means that you have this big pot of money and you're excited because you can get started with that immediately. However, you need to be aware of your state level rules, because we knew that we'd need a decent amount of staff to make this happen because we had such a broad idea. The other thing that we ran into is securing the full time positions, or the FTEs to do the work was really, really difficult. So, for instance, as Ashley and Paul would tell you, they didn't begin this at the beginning. They actually didn't come in until July of 2023. So we started October 2022. And the first time our state could say, yep, we think we moved two positions. We kind of had to beg, borrow and steal just to do that same thing with other entities that we're working with. They have a very long process for hiring. So we went from, you know, well, this is something that we want to do October 1st, and then we didn't even get the contract secured. And then they had to go through hiring. So we spent the first year dealing with that. The other thing I think was it really wasn't a major barrier, but one thing that we had to keep in mind is that even though a lot of agencies were really willing to talk, some of them weren't willing to take the leap with us. So we had to do a lot of meetings and discussions and honest conversations and the state to say we are all after the same thing. And that's a focus of people with disabilities moving into competitive integrated employment. Are you willing to jump on board with us? So I would say those are the major issues that we had.   Carol: Yeah, it sounds very familiar with other states. And I think you give good advice with people understanding your own state procurement processes and such so that you keep it in mind, because I know folks want to jump in and then you go, gosh, this whole year flew by and we're doing mostly planning and just trying to get the people on board because, shoot, it took you nine months to get Ashley and Paul going. So that's a big chunk. It's just everybody needs to sort of maybe temper expectations year one. So on a flip side, what would you say have been some initial successes or things you're super excited about that have happened? I know you're early on, but have you had any initial success stories or anything?   Paul: Yeah, I think we've actually had quite a few success stories, surprisingly, as we're DIF'ing it. The creation of our work groups, I would say when we came on in July, the work groups hadn't been created yet. And those are for those six objectives that Brandi had outlined. And so really moving things with like policy and apprenticeships and the transition piece, getting all the stakeholders to come to our collective meetings quarterly and then having them choose a work group to become a part of and then meet with that work group. So with the transition work group, I just use that for an example. We met bi-weekly, and so having stakeholders from around the state come in and really buy into what we were talking about and help develop that call for interest for letters and then get those proposals in. Also, what we've been doing to better understand some of the subminimum wage providers is we've been touring those 14(C) certificate holders to better understand their communities, what their needs are, why are they still providing some minimum wage? How can we support them to move away from Subminimum wage? And from then what we're looking towards is developing a business plan. That way we can do a lot of outreach both to those 14(C) certificate holders, but then also businesses in the community, so we can help them move away from subminimum wage to competitive, integrated employment. I would say another success is that we have chosen those two pilot programs for the Transition Work group, and we actually meet next week with the first school district. And so I'm always a person of action. And so this is really, really exciting for me to finally see these things getting rolling and getting all the stakeholders together and really planning for the students and planning for the future. So with that, what we're planning is, is that service provision for those school districts will start then in August once the school year starts. So that gives us a few months to get everybody on board, hire any staff that needs to be hired and get those pilot programs rolling. And then like I said, we'll be doing two more per year. Also, the high number of individuals, as I mentioned, we have that collective meeting that we do quarterly, but the high number of individuals that have participated in that, we've had upwards of 100 or more in those meetings and there's zoom meetings. So we have people from around the country really, and it's really amazing to see the buy in and the support that the DIF grant and the things that we're doing have.   Carol: That is super cool to hear. I'm really happy for you guys. So if people want to find out more about you, does someone want to throw out your website address that folks can access?   Brandy: We actually have a webpage on our vocational rehabilitation website, so it's IVRS.iowa.gov And from there under the About us section, there's an Iowa Blueprint for Change webpage. We actually provide information there. The sign up for the collectives that anyone can really join but also, then we put a specific contact information for Ashley, Paul, myself,  anyone willing to do the work. So you just reach out, its one door for or many doors, or path, I guess you could say, . You can reach out to any of us and you can get to who you need to get to. But also, if you're interested in, What are we doing with transition and how can we support that? Paul's information is on there as well. As that area focus covering and same with Ashley for what she's doing. So we list that all out there.   Carol: Excellent. 'cause  usually we have folks that do want to reach out, So don't be surprised. And you may get a call like in a year or six months cause people go back and listen to your old episode and they're like, hey, I want to reach out to those Iowa people. Well, I look forward to checking back in with you all as you get further down the road and see how things are rolling. But I'm super excited about your progress and what you're doing today my fellow neighbors. So thanks for joining me today. I hope you have a great day.   Brandy: Thanks, Carol.   Ashley: Thank you.   Paul: Thanks, Carol.   {Music} Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!  

Join us for a jam-packed visit to Frodsham Woods, Cheshire, where 80 volunteers were planting thousands of trees to help transform a former golf course into a fantastic new space for wildlife and people. We visit the neighbouring ancient woodland and admire hilltop views with site manager Neil and chat to Tim, supervisor of this army of tree planters, about how the new wood will develop. We also meet Esther, lead designer of the project, hear from comms guru Paul about the Trust's #plantmoretrees climate campaign, and speak to the volunteers about what the day means to them. Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, today's podcast is a bit of an unusual one because I'm off to an abandoned golf course in Cheshire, overlooking Liverpool. Not far away, in fact. And the vision is to create this once golf course into a thriving mosaic of habitats, including lush broadleaved woodland, grassland meadows and wooded glades dotted with wildflowers. Throughout the site, they're creating a network of grassy paths so people can walk through them and get far-reaching views of the Welsh borders, the western Pennines and the Bowland Fells, along with, of course, Liverpool and the Mersey Estuary. And very excitingly, the man actually who's running all the tree planting there is also in a band, and it's his music and his band's music you can hear in the background. More about that a little later. It's called Frodsham Woods, and it's near the Frodsham train station. Guess where? In Frodsham. Well, today we are starting, I'm starting sitting down with Neil Oxley, who's the site manager here. Hi Neil. Neil: Good morning, Adam. Adam: Good morning. So, just explain where we are because we are, well, I'm not gonna take away your thunder. Explain. It's an unusual location. Neil: So, we're sat on a bench overlooking the River Mersey and Liverpool. We're on the old golf course that was closed about three years ago. Adam: Yeah, well that's what I think is unusual – sitting on a golf course. I gotta take, it doesn't look like a golf course. They, the greenkeeper would have had a heart attack seeing the state of this place. But what's amazing is, well, I'm looking over a forest of planted trees. I mean, just within 10 yards, probably a couple of hundred of them, just been planted. So, this has got to be unusual. Take buying a golf course, turning it into a forest? Neil: It is, yeah. I think it's probably the first golf course that the Woodland Trust has taken on and it's just a great opportunity, though, that when it became available, it's adjoining some of our existing woodlands, including ancient woodland. And it's given us an opportunity to plant lots of trees and work with local people and engage the community in doing something good for the climate. Adam: And we're sitting down, looking over what might be, I don't know. Is that a bunker? Do you think that's a bunker? Neil: It is, yep. So, there there's probably about 40 bunkers on the golf course and we've kept them all, so some of those old features are still here. Adam: And I saw one, some gorse growing, just naturally growing in the bunker there. Neil: There is. Just in the two or three years since it stopped being maintained. There's gorse, there's silver birch, there's all sorts of trees and plants that are now appearing. Adam: I love the gorse. It's bright. It comes out early. Bright yellow. Real splash of colour in early spring. It's really. Neil: It is, yeah, it's lovely and colourful. Adam: And we're looking over a range of wind turbines. And is that the Mersey ahead? Neil: That is, that's the River Mersey. Adam: Although there's not much river, it looks, it looks like it's out. It's mainly mud. Neil: It's probably low tide at the moment. Yeah, and Liverpool just beyond the other side. Adam: Very nice. So, you're going to be my main guide today. We've got lots of people to meet, I know. Alright. Brilliant. So, explain to me the plan for the day. Neil: So, we're gonna have a walk round and look at some of the tree planting that we've already done here. We've got some groups of corporate volunteers and Woodland Trust staff here today also who are planting trees. So, we'll go and see them later on. But I thought maybe to start off with we could go and visit some of the ancient woodland that borders the site and show you sort of why it's important that we're doing what we're doing today. Adam: Brilliant. I'm of an age where sitting down is quite nice, but that's not going to get, that's not gonna get nothing made, is it? It's alright. We better get up and you lead on. Neil: OK, let's go. This lady, by the way, coming with the pug. She's up here all the time. She's really lovely, friendly, always talks to me and Paul. And we've already said hello to her, but he... Adam: Oh, this dog wants a lot of attention. Neil: He loves that. He loves that, yeah. Adam: We'll let the rest of the team pet the dog. You know, you've paused here for a special reason. Why? Neil: Yeah. So, this area, we're on the edge of the ancient woodland now and the part of the site in front of us is going to be left for what's called natural regeneration to develop. So, that will be where trees can self-seed and set and grow naturally. So, we're not actually planting any trees in this area in front of us. And you can see there's some silver birch trees there that probably self-seeded five or 10 years ago on the edge of the golf course. And they're growing quite well already. Adam: So, and what's the advantage of that? There's a big debate about rewilding and all of that. So, why has that become an important issue? Neil: It is, I mean to different people it can mean slightly different things as well. But basically it's leaving the land to develop and rewild itself, you know, for nature to colonise it. It's a slower process. Adam: So, because if you're planting them yourself, you're planting all the trees at the same time. They're all the same age, so they get wiped out. Everything gets wiped out. Neil: Potentially yes. You could lose a lot more. Adam: Actually, I'm surprised those are natural regeneration because they've, it's very regimented. Those silver birch, they've all come up in exactly the same space, very close together. It looks like there's been some thought behind that. Neil: It does. It does and again nature can do things very similar to how people plant trees. You know, you often can end up with them very densely packed, more densely packed than we're planting them, actually. Adam: Yeah, OK. Well, we're still surrounded by these young, young trees. So, you lead on. Where are we heading off to? Neil: So, we're just walking into, towards the ancient woodland area. So, this this is called Woodhouse Hill and it's mostly oak and some silver birch, some holly growing in here, plus a few other species as well. Adam: And wonderfully of you, you've taken me to the muddiest bit of land there is. Are we going through this? Neil: This, well, we can do. It's unfortunately because of the winter we've had, some of the paths are very wet and muddy around here now. Adam: So, I have my walking boots on. You squelch ahead and I'll squelch behind you. Neil: OK. We'll carry on then. Adam: So, we're heading up, give us a better view of the Mersey, a better view of Liverpool. Neil: That's right. Just around the corner, there's a really good viewpoint where the view will open up and a sunny day like today get quite good views. Adam: And is it used by the locals a lot? I mean, it's relatively new then. I mean, presumably a lot of locals don't know about it. Neil: Well, I mean since, the golf course was closed down during the pandemic, and at the time the owner allowed the public to come and walk on the site. So, suddenly from people being not allowed to use it unless they were playing golf, local people were allowed to come and walk the dogs or just walk themselves around with the family. So, people did get to know the site and start using it, but it also borders some existing woodlands with footpaths, which is where we are now. So, these existing woodlands were already well-used. Adam: Right. And what's the reaction of the locals been to the development here? Neil: Very positive. Yeah. I mean obviously there's always a fear when a piece of land is up for sale that it might go for some sort of development, housing or be sold to a private landowner who fences it off and stops people using it. So, people have been, yeah, really positive, really supportive. The consultation that we did before we started anything was all very much in favour of creating woodland and allowing public access. Adam: I think we're coming up to a viewpoint here where there's a bench. Neil: There is, we should have another sit down. Adam: And it's very steep here. You wouldn't want to be falling off that, but this is a beautiful view. Neil: Yeah. The weather today is just great for the view. Adam: We've been blessed. Look at this. And then you look across a sort of flat valley floor with some wind turbines, which some don't like but I always think they're really majestic. And beyond the wind turbines, the Mersey, where the tide is out. And beyond that, that's Liverpool. And is that Liverpool Cathedral? The grey building in the sort of middle there. Neil: That's the main Anglican cathedral, and then the Catholic cathedral is just off to the right and beyond in the far distance is North Wales, so that low line of hills you can see is just within North Wales. Adam: Oh, that's, those hills over there, beyond the chimneys, that's Wales. Neil: Beyond the chimneys, yeah. Adam: And some other lovely gorse and, whoops don't fall over, I thought it was going to be me that would be falling over, not the site manager. Neil: Mind the rock. Adam: Ice and sea. So, we've come to the sign. ‘The view from Woodhouse Hill holds clues to the distant past, the Mersey Basin and Cheshire's sandstone hills were both shaped by advancing ice sheets during the last Ice Age.' Do you know what? I wanted to say that because I remember from O-level geography, I think a flat-bottomed valley is a glacier-made valley. But I was, I didn't want to appear idiotic, so I didn't say that and I should have had the courage of my convictions. So, this is an ice-formed landscape. Neil: It is. It is. I understand that the ice sheets came down to this part of the north of England back in the Ice Age. And there's some interesting features that are found here called glacial erratics. Adam: Right. Neil: Which is rocks from other parts of the north of England and Scotland that were brought down on the ice sheets. And then when the ice sheets melted, those rocks were left behind. But they're from a different geological area. Adam: Right. Amazing. Neil: So, around here it's sandstone. The erratics are all kind of volcanic rocks. Adam: Brought down from the north, from Scotland. Neil: Lake District and Scotland. That's right. Adam: Beautiful. We were with a few other people. Neil: I think they couldn't be bothered to come through the mud, could they? Yeah. Adam: We seem to have lost them. OK, alright. Well, maybe we'll have to, we've lost our team, our support team. Neil: We'll head back, but yeah, no, this was the view I thought we'd come to. Yeah, because it is a nice view. Adam: Well, I'll tell you what. Let me take a photo of you, for the Woodland Trust social media. Neil: Thought you were gonna say falling over the rock again. No, no, I'll try not to. Adam: Yeah, let's not do that. Yeah, so to explain, you're running me across the field for some... Neil: Walking fast. Adam: Well, for you walking fast. I've got short legs. Why? Neil: Well, we've walked over now to where we've got the people who are helping plant trees today with us. So, we've got a mix of corporate volunteers, Woodland Trust staff and some of our volunteers here to help us and we're gonna go over and meet Tim Kerwin, who's in charge of the tree planting and supervising the tree planting with us today. Adam: Oh right, so these are, this is his army of tree planters. Neil: It is, yes. Tim keeps things in check and makes sure they're doing the right thing. Adam: OK. I mean, let's just look, there's scores of people I've no idea of who Tim is. Neil: Tim? Tim, can we get your attention for a few minutes? Tim: Yes. Adam: Hi, nice to see you, Tim. Tim: I've seen you on telly. Adam: Have you? Adam: Well, Tim, as well as being in charge of everyone planting the trees today is also the sax player in a band. And of course we have to talk about that first and he very kindly gave me one of his original tracks, which is what you can hear right now. A first for the podcast. *song plays* Tim: You know, you know what? We probably do about eight gigs a year, right? But we're trying to find venues where people like jazz. We don't want to, you know, we don't want to do Oasis. That's not what we're about. There's plenty of bands like that. We play music for ourselves, and if people turn up and appreciate it, those are the people we want. I'll play for one person. Adam: You know, I was in a wood a few years ago and, can't remember where it was, and we just came across a violinist, just playing to herself. And it was just like can I record it? And it's like, just playing amongst the trees, and I thought it was really lovely. Tim: You know what? I would, I would do the same. I mean, the places I like to play, like churches are fantastic because of the acoustics. Adam: So, you might play that under this chat and what's the name of the band? Tim: The Kraken. Adam: The Kraken? Tim: Yeah. Adam: OK. Alright, The Kraken *laughs* So, all of which is a bit of a divergence. Tim: I know, sorry *laughs* Adam: So, I'm told you're in charge of this army of tree planters you can see over here. Three men having their sandwich break there. So, you've been working them hard. Tim: We have been working them hard, indeed. Adam: So, just explain to me a little bit about what's going on here. Tim: So, today we can almost see the finishing line for our 30,000 trees. So, this morning we've actually planted just shy of 2,000 trees with the group that we've had, of which there's about 80 people. Adam: That's a lot of trees. People always talk about how long does it take to plant a tree? It's not that big a thing is it? Tim: No, but what we're keen about is it's not about necessarily speed, it's about accuracy. We want quality. So, what we're asking people to do is plant each tree really well. So, today I have to say the standard of planting has been amazing. From the first to the last, I haven't found one that I'm not happy with. Adam: So, explain to me, and we're standing by a tree that's just been planted. It looks like they've scraped a bit of the grass away. So, explain to me, how should you plant a tree and what goes wrong? Tim: OK, so what we've done here, we took the grass off before the guys came, so that's called scriefing. So, the purpose of that is the tree needs water. And this grass also needs water. So, we take that grass away, and the competition's gone away for the tree. So, it won't be forever, because within two years, that grass will have grown around that tree. But those first two years are quite critical. So, if we can get the new roots from, so those trees and little plugs, new roots which are going to come out in the next couple of weeks because the soil's warming up. I mean, the air's warming up, but the soil's warming up. Those will send out shoots. They're already starting to come in to leaf, which is why the urgency to get these trees in now. They will take in the water around them and then keep on spreading with that root system. Enough root system will go out there and it will then not be competing with the grass because in fact the tree will be competing with the grass and actually taking over. So, eventually that grass will probably die because it will be shaded out in the future. Adam: And talking about shade, I'm surprised how closely planted these are, about five foot apart or thereabouts. If this was a forest in 20 years', 30 years' time, it's exceptionally dense. Or are you expecting a lot of them to fail? Tim: So, imagine you've got an oak tree and that throws down 40,000 acorns in usually every four years. So, it doubles its weight above ground. Adam: Sorry, 40,000? Tim: 40,000. A mature oak, yeah. Adam: It's worth pausing on that *laughs* A mature oak drops 40,000 acorns a year? Tim: Every four years, roughly. Adam: Because it doesn't do it every year, do they? Tim: No. So, it has what they call a mast year, which is the year when everything's come together. It's usually based on the previous weather, weather conditions. So, that doubles the weight of the tree above ground, that throws all those acorns. Now you imagine they're gonna be a couple of centimetres apart on the ground. They're not all going to make it. What they're hoping is that something will take those away. So, a jay or a squirrel, they'll move those acorns away. Not all of them will get eaten. In fact, jays let the acorn germinate, and then they eat the remains. So, they wait to see where the oak tree comes up and then they come back and eat the remains of the cotyledon. So, you imagine if all those were going to germinate, there'd be a mass rush, and what they're waiting for is for the parent plant to die. And if that falls over, then they can all shoot up, but they're not all going to survive. So maybe only one, maybe two will survive out of those 40,000 if they're close to the tree. Now, what we're doing here is, imagine there's the parent plant, the parent plant's not here. We've already spaced these out by this distance already. So, we've given them a better chance. So, they can now flourish. In time, so within sort of 10 to 12 years, we're going to start to be sending this out. So, you won't see this line. There are other parts on this site, 23 years old, and we've done a lot of filling through that. You wouldn't know it's been planted by, in a plantation. Adam: So, what would you, what's the failure rate? What's a good failure rate to stay with? Tim: It can really, really vary. I have to say that the soil here is tremendous. It's very rich. I'd be very surprised if we have a high failure rate. It could be 95% take. Adam: So, that's really interesting. And what are you planting then? I've seen some oak. I've seen some silver birch. What are you planting? Tim: So, Cheshire is all about oak and birch. So, 25% of these trees, so 7,500 are oak. And then 10% are silver birch. So that's 3,000. And then there's another 18 species that are all native to the UK that we're planting in here. So, things like rowan, holly, Scots pine and then we've got hazel, some large areas of hazel on this site that we've put in and then we've got hawthorn, blackthorn, couple of types of cherry, and then some interesting ones as well. So, we're putting some elm in and, specifically for a butterfly. So, there's a butterfly called white letter hairstreak. And the caterpillar feeds on the leaves of that tree. So, we've got those in Cheshire, but we're trying to expand it. And we've been working with the Butterfly Conservation group to get it right. So, they've given us some advice. Adam: I thought elm was a real problem with the Dutch elm disease? Tim: It still is. It still is. Adam: There was some talk that maybe some had found some natural resistance to Dutch elm disease. Tim: There are some resistant elm. And so, the plantings that we've done on here are what's classed as wych elm. It will still get Dutch elm disease, but it can last up to 16 years. And then there's always the opportunity to replant so we can get elm established. Then we can carry on spreading that through the site, so it's a starting point for that species we have. So again, we're trying to increase the biodiversity of the site by having specific trees for specific species. So, it's exciting. I mean, a lot's been lost and it won't become a beautiful wildflower meadow, although we are going to be doing some wildflower planting. We've already bought the seed. And in the next couple of weeks as it gets a little bit drier and a little bit warm, we're going to be, we're going to be sowing that in and that will come through the spring and summer. So, we've got lots to happen here as well. Adam: Oh brilliant. Well, it's so nice to see it at an early stage. I'll come back in a couple of years. Tim: It's probably one of the most exciting projects, tree wise, in Cheshire in a long time, because I've been doing this for a long, long time and these opportunities don't come up. So, for this to happen. And for the size of it as well. I mean, you're talking about a huge area of woodland now, over 180 acres. So, the second biggest area of woodland in Cheshire, so it's amazing. It truly is amazing. Adam: Well, I'm walking away. In fact, all tree planting has stopped for lunch. What is the time? Yeah, it's 12:45. So, everyone has stopped for sandwiches and teas, and they're spreading branches of some trees. And while they're doing that, two people are still working. That's me. And Paul? Hi. Paul: Hi. Adam: So, just explain to me what you do, Paul? Paul: I work as the comms and engagement manager for the north of England, so this is one of the best tree planting games we have had in a long time. Adam: And the people we've got here today, they're just locals? They from any particular groups? Paul: No, the Woodland Trust staff as part of our climate campaign now get a day to come out and we've got various corporate volunteering groups out also planters. We've got about 80 people out planting today. Adam: Well, that's amazing and we've just paused by this gorse bush. I'm rather partial to the gorse, so we'll take some shelter there. So, you talked about that this is part of a bigger campaign. What is that campaign? Paul: It's our climate campaign. And very simple hashtag plant more trees. So, trees are one, probably one of the best things we've got in the battle against climate change to help. And they have the added benefit that also they're good for biodiversity as well. So, twin track approach if you plant a tree. Obviously they're not the solution to everything, but we're hoping, as the Woodland Trust just to get more people planting trees. Adam: What is the target then? The sort of tree planting target you have? Paul: Well we have a target to get 50 million trees planted by 2030. Across all of the UK, so quite, quite a number. Adam: 50 million trees by 2030, so six years? Paul: Yeah, yeah. And we've, I think we've planted 6 million trees, 2023, yeah. Adam: Why is everyone taking a break? They've got millions to get in. That's quite an ambitious thing to get done, isn't it? Paul: Yeah. And we need, we need to plant billions of trees longer term. So, it's really important we get everyone planting trees, but it's all that message as well, right tree in the right place, and get trees planted where they're needed. Adam: And this is an unusual project, not least cause it's on an old golf course, which I've never heard of before. Has it attracted much interest? Is there a lot of engagement from the media and the public? Paul: Yeah, this site has had a remarkable amount of attention from the press. It started with local radio, then regional TV and then we've had things like Sky News Climate Show out here and then even international press coverage looking at rewilding of golf courses. CNN covered it alongside international golf courses and here in the UK, Frodsham. So, it's been amazing how it's captured everyone's imagination and it's been such a really positive good news story. It's a site that's a key site within the Northern Forest. So, the Northern Forest is another project that I'm involved with in the north of England, but. Adam: Did you say a little project? *laughs* Paul: Another, another project. Adam: Oh sorry. I was gonna say, a massive project. Paul: That's a massive project, which is again stretching, looking to plant 50 million trees from Liverpool to Hull and we're working with the Community Forests in each area, in this case the Mersey Forest and again just promoting grants and support to landowners and communities to get more, more trees planted and to help acquire land for tree planting and give the grants for tree planting. Adam: It must give you a warm feeling that your communications are actually being so well received that there is, it's not just you pushing out a message, that people want to hear this message. Paul: Yeah, it's really, really good to not have a negative message. Generally it's a really, really positive message that people wanted to hear because it's great for the community. They're getting some amazing green space with stunning views of the Mersey on the doorstep. It's interesting story about how we're changing from a golf course to a woodland site. We've got the ancient woodland, got natural regeneration. And just the fact that everyone's smiling, everyone's really happy and just so pleased that they're playing their small part in helping us create this new woodland site. Just great to be part of that, that positive good news story. Adam: Well, I'm going over to a group of people who have been busy planting all day but are now on their lunch break, just to bother them and ask them how their day has been and why they got involved in this. Adam: OK, well, you can, first of all, you can just shout out so, well we've, you all are hard at work I hear, but I've seen very little evidence of it cause everyone's sat down for lunch now. Have you all had a good day? Everyone: Yes. Adam: That would have been awful had they said no. Anyway, they all had a good day. So, I mean, it's lovely that you're out. You're all out here doing, I mean, very serious work. You've all got smiles on your face and everything. But this is important. I wonder why anyone's getting involved, what it means to you. Anyone got a view or get a microphone to you? Adam: So, what's your name? Volunteer 1: Rodon. Adam: Rodon. So, why are you here? Rodon: Well, nature, wildlife, planting, and I know the area quite well, so it's nice to see being developed in a sustainable way and being something for nature. It's a great place to come and visit, not far from the sandstone trail. I visit lots of Woodland Trust sites. I live in Warrington so it's sort of down the road, and it's, as I say, with the old wood over there that's quite an adventurous path. It's got lots of like sandstone sort of steps and little caves, and it's on the side of a cliff. So, this has kind of extended that over here as well. Adam: It would be a lovely thing to return to in a few years. Rodon: Well, it's a nice place now to be honest. Adam: Brilliant. Volunteer 2: My name is David Mays. I'm also from the from the town of Warrington as well. I'm an MSC and BSc student from local Hope University. I've finished both of them now, thankfully. I'm trying to get a job in the ecological management sector and I feel doing this working with people like Tim and Neil will help me massively get a, you know, it looks good on my CV. Most importantly, I really enjoy being out here and getting to know how the areas of ecological development, particularly in the woodland industry, is developing over the past few years and what are the plans for the future and what they hope to achieve in the long term and short term. Adam: That's very good. So, it's also very innovative of you putting out your CV live on air there. Good. Hopefully someone needing a job, with a job to offer will contact us. Good luck with that. So, oh yeah, we've come under another lovely tree. I mean it looks set. I was just saying to Kerry, it's so beautiful here. It looks like we've set this shot up. Really, you know? But here you are with your spades behind you taking a break from the trunk. So, first of all, have you, has it been a good day? Volunteer 3: Yeah. Yeah, it has been. It's been dry. Adam: It's been dry. OK. Alright. Well, let's get, so, the best thing about today is that it was dry. Volunteer 3: It's one of the positive points. Definitely. Yeah, after the trees. Adam: Yeah, with experience. So, why did you want to come out? What made you want to be part of this? Volunteer 3: Well, I think it's because we are having a bit of a push with the climate change agenda at the moment, so it's, working for the Woodland Trust it's just a nice opportunity to get away from the sort of the day job for me and get out into the field and actually do something practical and help towards that. Adam: Yeah. Did, I mean, has it been very physical for you today, has it? Volunteer 3: It's not been too bad, actually. It's been fine. Yeah. No, it's been OK. Ask me tomorrow, but yeah *laughs* Adam: Have you done this sort of stuff before? Volunteer 3: No, this is my first, this is my first planting day with the Trust. Adam: Yeah, and your last? Volunteer 3: No, no, I'll definitely no, it hasn't put me off. We'll definitely, definitely be back out again when I get the opportunity. It's been great. Adam: So, go on. Tell me what's all been like for you today? Volunteer 4: It's been really good. Yeah. I just can't believe we've covered so much ground in so little time, really. Seems we've only been here a few hours and because it's, I've been quite remote working from home, so it's quite nice kind of seeing some people I've met on screen, so it's nice to now, yeah, meet people in the real world and yeah, give back. I've never, I've not done anything like this before. Adam: So yeah, so is this your first time planting trees? Volunteer 5: It's not my first time planting trees, but it's my first time planting with the Trust. I was planting trees in my garden on the weekend, so I've done my back in. So, I've not quite got the planting rate of everyone else today I don't think, but you know, as the other guys were saying, we work office jobs really rather than on the front line of the Trust. So, it is good to get our hands dirty and to get involved with what we're supposed to be all about and contribute to our climate change campaign. So, hashtag plant more trees. Adam: Yeah. There we are, on message as well. Volunteer 5: I work in the brand team *laughs* Adam: There we are. There we are. Thank you. That's excellent. Adam: Now, really I should have started with this because we're nearing the end of my morning in the forest. But I've come to meet Esther, who's really one of the big brains behind the planting scheme. I know a bit modest about that, but tell me a little bit about what your involvement has been with this project. Esther: I've been a lead designer on this project, so I've been putting together the planting plans and lots of maps and really working with Neil, he's the site manager, to make sure that we make this the best scheme that we can make it. We've included coppice coupes for biodiversity and. Adam: Right, what's a coppice coupe? Esther: A coppice coupe is just an area of where you're planning to coppice. So, cut a tree down to its very base and then it grows back up as shoots. So, it only works with a few species and the species that we've chosen is hazel. So, those areas are 100% hazel. And it's great for biodiversity because you sort of go in a rotational like a 10-year cycle or something like that and you cut back say 10% of your trees in that year and then you get a lot of light to the ground and then you get hopefully a lot of floristic diversity coming through. Adam: And so, is that a job that, it sounds terrible the way I'm saying it – is that a job? Is it a job that you sit down and you go, you have a piece of paper or computer and you go, this is where we're, how we're gonna design the forest. We're gonna put ash over there. We're gonna put oak over there. Is that what you do? Esther: Yeah. Yeah. So, we use something called GIS. So, geographical information systems which basically let you draw shapes on a map and then you can colour code it and basically make a really coherent design of something to tell people, you know, what you're trying to achieve. What's gonna go where. Adam: And it's not every, it's not like building an extension to a house where you go well, there's probably thousands and going on all the time. There can't be that many forests being planted each day, so this must be a significant thing in your career I would have thought. Esther: Oh yeah, this is my first woodland creation scheme that I've seen from pretty much the start to the finish, so I've been working on it for 18 months and then an awful lot of hours gone into it. It's been really enjoyable and it's just a wonderful, wonderful to see it coming together. And yeah, and we're nearly finished now, so. Adam: And I know people often think, oh well, I'll come back in 100 years' time and you know, my great grandchildren might see these trees. But actually, within your career, you will see a forest here won't you. Esther: Yeah. So, I think within 10 years it will look like a woodland. It's had, this site has a history of agriculture, so it should in theory have a lot of nutrients in the soil. So, the trees should grow really well. So yeah, I would say within 10 to 15 years, it should look like fully fledged woodland, if not a bit young, but yeah. Adam: And are you optimistic about really the change that you and your colleagues can make? Cause there's a lot of pessimism around. What's your view? Esther: I think it's a really exciting time to be working in the environment sector and there's a lot of enthusiasm for making big changes in our lives and big changes in our landscape. I think there's a lot of hope to be had. And yeah, just seeing like the amount of enthusiasm on a planting day like this really fills me with a great deal of hope, yeah. Adam: Yeah. Have you planted any trees yourself? Esther: I have, yeah. Adam: How many of these have been yours, you reckon? Esther: We have 15, probably not that many *laughs* Adam: Oh, that's not bad. I thought you were gonna be like The Queen. I planted one. There was a round of applause and I went home *laughs* Esther: No, I put a lot of guards on, but yeah, not planting that many trees myself. Adam: Fantastic. Well, it's been a great day for me. Our half day out here and I'll definitely return. It's amazing, amazing, positive place. Esther: Wonderful, yeah. Adam: And the sun has shone on us. Metaphorical smile from the sun. Brilliant. Thank you very much. Esther: Thank you so much. *song plays* Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you, you can do so by going to The Woodland Trust website which is www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

500 Million Gallons at Hickam AFB In this episode, Andy has a discussion with Paul Bassett, in the car, driving to the Hickam AFB in Honolulu Hawaii.  Learn more about ENVOCORE   === Andy: Welcome back to a very special edition of the Sprinkler Nerd Show. I'm your host, Andy Humphrey, joined by the one and only the magnificent Paul Bassett live, well not live, as close to live as we can get from the island of Oahu, Honolulu, on the way to, where are we going today, Paul?  Paul: We're going to the Hickam Air Force Base, where we're saving a bunch of water by retrofitting out some old, antiquated irrigation systems. Andy: And I think we should, you should give a little background on the Hickam project and why. Why you're here and then we can see if we have enough time to discuss why why I'm here with you But give us some background on the Hickam  Paul: project Well, we were lucky to be fortunate to be selected to help the Air Force Base and our client Amoresco save energy and water They're using based on our analysis initially in this particular project over half a billion gallons of water If you are an irrigation professional, old or new, who designs, installs, or maintains high end residential, commercial, or municipal properties, and you want to use technology to improve your business, to get a leg up on your competition, even if you're an old school irrigator from the days of hydraulic  Andy: systems, this show is for you. Paul: Um, specifically on the irrigation system, we analyzed them consuming about 300, 350 million gallons annually to virtually apply water to the grass around the common areas and the housing  Andy: units. Is that just outdoor water use or is that indoor and  Paul: outdoor? Well, the half a billion would have been total. So 350 million approximately annually on the landscape and 150 million. Uh, on the interior homes and  Andy: businesses and facilities. Wow. So Envacore though is headquarters in Maryland. How does a company headquarters in Maryland end up securing a project here in Honolulu?  Paul: Well, fortunately for us, we do work all over the country, uh, with regards to the Department of Defense. And we've been working with this particular client as long as we've been in business, 15, 20 years. So they trust, we're a trusted partner with them. So we're able to secure projects virtually all over the world with this client. And the client's Amoresco? Client on this one is Amoresco, yes, and they're, they're an energy service company. So what we do is we help them, when they secure projects, develop and build energy and water conservation projects for them that, that pay for themselves and the reduction of the utility bills.  Andy: So people oftentimes hear about these projects and hear about opportunities to conserve water and do performance contracting and generate an ROI that has a payback return on the savings, but I don't think a lot of, let's say, industry, Companies and professionals have an opportunity to get involved with them. So maybe you could tell us a little bit more about, you know, about this side of the, of the industry that only a few get to participate in right now.  Paul: Well, I think luckily for us, we've found a way. to really parlay irrigation savings into performance contracting. So it's really water savings as a service. And the key to the success that we've had over the years is we deploy and integrate the newest and latest technology to be able to almost in real time watch the water consumption move through the water meters and then report on that information directly to our client. So one of the benefits that we have is that You know, we, we calculate savings based on evapotranspiration and the amount of water being applied to the landscape. But in the real world, you really need the data to prove out the savings that you promised. So in order for our company and my company to be successful, we have to prove year after year that what we calculated in the water savings is real and tangible.  Andy: Awesome. So let's go back to, in order to... potential is. Let's, let's go back to when this project first started. When was that? What year were you first involved and how do you actually start looking at a project like this for the first time?  Paul: Well, this project has been going on since 2015. Initially there's been a lot of back and forth and up and down and contract negotiations and challenges. But what we typically do is we'll get the water bill and the utility bill and we'll analyze, you know, how much either energy or water. Water is being consumed and we determine from there what either gallons per square foot or gallons per person is being consumed and we'll do a weather analysis and we'll calculate how much water should be consumed by this particular plant in this particular climate and then we look at the utility bill and we say, huh, we think this site should be using 20 gallons per square foot annually and we see it's using 30 gallons per square foot annually. And then right away at that point, we know that we have an opportunity for savings.  Andy: Okay. So you do the analysis and then at what point do you actually come on site to do some verification and to look and see if that's actually poor performance with controls, if there's leaks, if it's distribution, when do you come in and do your first analysis? Paul: Well, when we do the utility analysis initially, and then we determine the viability of the opportunity, meaning we deem that there is potential for savings by looking at all of it. Okay. data. And if the data says yes, we think there's an opportunity. Then at that point, we all agree that we're going to engage into a contract and then we're going to deploy folks to be able to come out and actually physically do the audits, run through the irrigation systems, count all the sprinklers, try to determine the flow rates, extract the schedules and controls, and then establish from that point what the actual irrigation system or plumbing system or lighting system is consuming energy and value. I'm going to the  Andy: utility bills. Okay. So your team put eyes on every sprinkler on this project several times. Yes. Wow. Okay. So let's talk about the scale of this project so that the listeners can visualize what, what this is. So maybe let's talk about, let's go top down. If you can recall some of the data in terms of how many water sources, how many controllers, how many zones and potentially how many sprinklers. Paul: Well, as I mentioned prior to the, um, Initial conversation, Andy, we initially analyzed that they were using, consuming about half a billion gallons of water through all of the piping network and infrastructure. We then got all the housing unit counts and the peoples and bodies per potties. And we had meter data for all the irrigation. And then once we deemed that, then it was time to get really boots on the ground. And then from that point, we, we really go in and identify all the controllers, all the water supplies, all the valves. We put it all on a map, um, inventory, everything at that point. And, and then we know exactly what we're going to be getting involved with at that point. Okay.  Andy: So how many is that? You know, it's one thing to hear a half a billion gallons, but let's flip that over and turn and turn that into number of controllers, number of water sources, sprinkler count. What are those numbers look like?  Paul: We were just over 200 controllers on the site that were not battery operated controllers, just standard plugin controllers. We have 135, 140, I believe water connections where the feeding those 200 and some controllers. And then it was over 30, 000 sprinklers that were within the scope  Andy: of services. Okay. And those sprinklers include pop up spray heads, three quarter inch rotors, and one inch rotors. And  Paul: some drip. Some drip. You know, not much, but some drip. We're phasing the drip out of the scopes. Okay. Well,  Andy: there's not a lot of projects opportunity. Well, maybe there are, but they 200 controller retrofit opportunity and 135 water sources. That's a massive scale. And, what I didn't realize about this base before visiting is that it's like a village. People live here. You come through the gate, we're about to, right now, show them our DBID cards. To get access to the base, but this is like kind of Entering a private HOA community that's run by the government you live here you work here Everything happens on the base and maybe because I didn't grow up in the military. This is all new to me There's probably a lot of listeners that are like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we know this but to me I guess I thought at first that the base was just military operations I didn't realize that people lived on the base and that all of this housing and infrastructure is managed  Paul: Yeah, I mean, again, I think for us on this particular military base, I mean, there's a bunch of soldiers that live and work on the base and they consume water. They have consume energy. They want their grass to look good. I'm just like the rest of us who live in the regular population. Sorry Andy, we were going through the gates. So  Andy: I got distracted. Yeah, we going through real time, getting our security checked out right now. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you too. And, uh, I also I should have done my homework, but I didn't realize this is a. a joint base or what a joint base even Really meant and so this is and you can tell me paul. This is the air force and the navy. Is that correct?  Paul: Yeah, the official name of the site is joint base pearl harbor hickam okay, and we're we're working on the hickam side, which is the Air Force side of the military privatized housing  Andy: because this is a very strategic location for the United States and it's security for the world here in the Pacific. So they have air and sea operations, not really land operations because there's no land here. This is all this is in the middle of the. Pacific Ocean. So we have the air, right? And the sea joint on this base.  Paul: Yeah. And ideally if, if you think about how we're working here, it's primarily to reduce the amount of energy and water that the federal government spends on this utility. So we are helping the taxpayers reduce our debt or demand on the utility spent on this base.  Andy: And at this point, uh, let's start back. What, when did you start the actual renovations?  Paul: Well, once we got the approval to move forward with the construction, we started October of 2022. So we're just about a year and 11 months in into construction, um, which we're about halfway through the project. Um, it was a two year. Construction period. So we're about halfway in and, and we're right on, right on schedule with, with the construction timeframe.  Andy: Okay. And I think, you know, let's, let's talk a little bit about, I would love to hear from you. Where, where are you, where do you start? So you did the analysis, you know what you need to change. You've got your, you know, marching orders. Where do you start  Paul: first? Well, we were dictated here by the military and the housing folks on where we wanted to start. And there's some specifics that they wanted us to focus on certain areas of the base. And as you know now, Andy, there's multiple... neighborhoods that we work in. There's five distinct neighborhoods that we worked in, so we're, we're focusing on a neighborhood at a time. We're going in and completing that specific neighborhood, getting that fully functioning, getting that up a hundred percent, and then we can start managing the water and the data. And then once we complete a given neighborhood, then we move on to the next  Andy: neighborhood. Okay, and do you start with controls and get control of the system and work down to the sprinkler, or do you start with the sprinkler and work back  Paul: up to the controls? Well, we have a couple of different crews that we have, uh, deployed on the base. We have one crew that is focused on controls, number one, then we have another crew that we have come in as going to do the flow sensor master valves install. And then the, the final crew, which is the largest of the crews are the ones that are replacing all the sprinkler heads. So ideally we, we just, depending on how the. Workflow is the first crew goes in and starts retrofitting all the controls. That way we reduce or remove all of the standard control systems and then get control with the web based remote opportunity. And that way it's easier for the managers to control the control system remotely while the guys and gals on the ground are really doing the, doing the dirty work. And  Andy: what type of controls do you have here? Did you go?  Paul: We, we, um, went with weather track, which is, you know, the. System that's been proven beneficial for our company and our clients long term. We've been deploying WeatherTrack for over 20 years.  Andy: And, uh, which model  Paul: weather track? The ET Pro 3. Okay. Um, and then because there's some complexity of the water supplies, we have multiple controllers on a single supply. We have multiple supplies on multiple controllers. So using their OptiFlow system really helps integrate and manage the water on some of these  Andy: complex systems. Okay. At this point, as of today, September 15th. How many controllers have you retrofitted and installed?  Paul: Last I looked, we're about 125. So just over halfway, the halfway point of the controls.  Andy: Okay, and are of all those 125, do they all have flow sensors and master valves?  Paul: Today they don't because we're With the complexity of the digging permits and some of the other things. I think we have about 30 to 35 of the flow sensors installed at this point. Um, and then now we just got approval recently to go ahead and start excavating and some of the other areas to start putting in the flow sensors and master valves. It's just a little more complex with digging and excavating here on a military base. There's a complexity with regards to the, the permits that are required to dig on the site. Okay, so  Andy: you've got, uh, I think you said maybe 35 flow sensors. How, who watches those or looks at those and do you have to report on those or what do you do with that  Paul: data? Yeah, we have team members that their responsibility is to go ahead and analyze the data every day, take a look at all the reporting, take a look at all of the flow. Um, and then if there's a, there's an anomaly or an alert condition and then we dispatch the folks on the ground to go ahead and analyze and determine what the problem is. Okay.  Andy: And as of today, 11 months in, what, what's been the most difficult part of the project so far?  Paul: What we've seen is the transition between our services and the existing maintenance services. Like who's responsible for what? A lot of times they just wanted to go ahead and. Push everything on to us and the communication between our team and the existing facilities maintenance team Has been the biggest challenge trying to let them understand that they're still responsible For the neighborhoods that they have been working in and we're responsible for the neighborhoods We're working in so trying to get all of the parties together to make sure we're all working as one has been the biggest challenge Okay,  Andy: so let's uh I think let's maybe not bring this to a total close, but let's move to, you know, what we've been working on this week without, you know, exact details. Uh, you know, but maybe we should just talk a little bit about the concept of these very difficult, hard to manage areas that were part of this project that fall outside the standard scope of replacing a controller. And, you know, requiring some, some different type of technology that, you know, we look forward to sharing with the listeners at some point here in the future. And this is not a, a testing ground, but this is a unique application that we're able to deploy some very innovative technology to solve particular problems that traditional industry isn't able to solve.  Paul: Yeah. Well, good, good insight, Andy. One of the things that we found on this particular facility is that there's a lot of. Medians that are going through the neighborhoods. Um, and they're running and operating on a battery timer controller. So there's no remote activation or remote monitoring. So what we're doing is we're, we're in the midst of deploying some smart valves. What is a smart valve? A smart valve has more than just one activation. So it has flow sensing and master control and pressure and soil moisture. So what we're able to do is take away that old school just running whatever that time battery controller was and being able to provide remote access into that insight and be able to actuate that valve and monitor that flow remotely. Right  Andy: valve to the cloud where there is no infrastructure. There's no wires. There's no control. We just have one valve in a median We can now take that information put it right to the cloud manage it remotely and have all  Paul: of the data And that's really what has been extremely fun and rewarding to be able to deploy Some of this new technology into a place where they're just been using traditional controls.   Andy: and when it is just a single battery operated controller that is not connected to anything it runs a schedule, right? It does that schedule every Monday, Wednesday, Friday at a particular time and that's part of the water waste issue is there was no Smarter automation just ran like a  Paul: Like a clock and that the problem with that is is because of the site so big and it's hard to manage That these things that batteries die and now that area is brown and nobody understands Why or the they never adjust the clock from the summer rotation? So it was running seven days a week and then in the winter time It's still running seven days a week because nobody really sees it So there was really a lack of insight and management of those particular devices Yeah,  Andy: and there is outside of this project, there is a really big market opportunity for this technology. And I cannot wait to, uh, share this with the world when we're ready, perhaps at the IA show. For those of you listening, if you would like to join us at the IA show, we may be ready to share a little bit more about what we've been, what we've been working on and what Paul's deployed here at Hickam. Super exciting. Paul: Well, Andy, I know we are going to wrap this up because we got another. Half a day here to finish up this project.  Andy: So, and you're going to get dirty, right? I'm going to sit here in the car and edit up this podcast, right? You're going to, you're going to get, get dirty today.  Paul: I suppose not much editing luckily for this one today, Andy. Andy: Yeah. This might be one of the podcasts that is totally in the raw, not much editing. So I hope our mics work. Paul's got a mic on, I've got a mic on again, technology, dual wireless mics, just piped into my iPhone right here. So we got to the site. We're ready to finish up our last day. Thank you guys for listening. Keep your eyes open. There are projects like this that are out there. And large or small, there's plenty of projects like this. If you keep your eyes open, you will find them. Any, uh, last words of advice, Paul, for someone looking to maybe, you know, not get out of just installing sprinklers, but expand their business into more of this conservation performance contracting? I mean,  Paul: my... Thoughts to that is just keep your eyes wide open, be willing and open to change and test and fail and then succeed after you fail. That's what I've learned. And there's a lot of times with when you're dealing with technology that it doesn't work right out of the box. It's new. It's innovative. It's testing. It's trying. So that's really what we're doing. And what I've done over my career is, um, you test and you fail and you proceed on. And eventually. You're going to get to a point where you're going to find success because  Andy: if it were easy, anyone would do it. This is the truth. Awesome. Appreciate your time. Paul. Good week with you. I thank you so much and appreciate everybody listening. Mahalo. Mahalo.  

In this episode, Andy calls Paul Bassett, and together they have a short conversation about the opportunity to turn water into dollars. === Paul: Hey Drew.  Andy: Paul. Good morning.  Paul: Good morning to you buddy. Andy: How's your day going?  Paul: It's going great today. Thanks. It's Friday.  Andy: Heck yeah. I was thinking about you this morning because of the concept of turning water into dollars that I was thinking about and thought we could just brain share about that concept. Paul: I like that. Andy: So yesterday I moderated a webinar with Ben Coffey at WeatherTrack and Max Moreno, who's the VP of sales for Harvest Landscape, and Max uses water budgets as a part of his daily business practice. And the more I started thinking about water budgets, it's really a concept of a budget and a budget entails finances and money. Andy: And what I think is so fascinating is that we all, you know, in this industry, when I say we, I'm generalizing here. Most people talk about run time, number one, you know, how long should I run my sprinklers in the form of time? And then. Kind of at the next level, people talk about how much water am I going to use? Andy: What's the gallons? What's the volume? Either gallons per minute, gallons per day, per cycle, per year, per month. But then what we really don't talk much about is what does the dollars mean? How can we convert that to dollars and cents and why do we not use that as a discussion point more often?  Paul: You're right. Paul: I mean, it's something that I think should be discussed with the end user client because in In almost any other utility consumption, it is discussed in dollars and cost. I don't know why the water is slower to transition to that. So I think it's a good place to be for us, Andy, because it will allow us to kind of be a differentiator, or what we teach others to allow them to be a differentiator. Andy: I think that if we're only now starting to talk about the dollars, I feel like what we need to do is put the dollars out there. So with the, let's say the irrigation design, the proposal, you know, the estimate when contractor X goes out to a client site, whether it's residential or commercial, and they put together their estimate for construction and installation. Andy: I don't know that I've ever seen a proposal that includes estimated. Cost per year on the system, and I think if we led with that, then that would spark the kind of curiosity and question and we could go backwards into the different parts of the system, the design, the distribution uniformity that actually affects the cost of the system, but lead with the dollars and then explain it through the use of technology, proper installation, proper design, et cetera. Andy: I mean, it's, it's so good because if you think about it in, in other appliances that you buy, for instance, you know, if you see nowadays, if you buy a hot water heater, or if you buy a refrigerator, what do they have stamped on it, they have stamped on what the anticipated energy cost is to operate that piece of equipment for a given year based upon a unit of measurement of that particular particular. Andy: Energy or, uh, utility. So they say, okay, if you're gonna buy this refrigerator, average energy costs in the United States is 12 cents a kilowatt hour. On average, this particular refrigerator is going to cost you a hundred bucks a year to run an energy. Why can't we do the same in irrigation? It should be that way. Andy: Right. Instead we say this sprinkler uses, uh, 2. 5 gallons per minute, let's just say. But what does that really mean? The user, the end user, doesn't, doesn't really know what that means, and they don't necessarily... But what if we said something different? Yeah, change the metric. I don't know if we could necessarily turn it into dollars, because it depends on, you know, how long it needs to run, but maybe it could be like, here's how many, you know, dollars per hour of operation or something like that. Andy: Yeah, or, you know, just like you, when you create a gallons per minute, we know what that... Flow rate is and you determine what that zone should run for and then calculate what it should cost to run that many gallons through the system. I mean, it's really not as challenging as one would think it's just we don't use that metric at this point,  Andy: right? Andy: And and all of these, uh, let's say modern control systems Let's just say modern because I I personally don't think most systems are really all that awesome So we'll just call them modern if we're already tracking gpm And we, you know, we can find breaks in the pipe and we can, we can have all those kinds of alarms and we have a GPM. Andy: All we have to do is add another box to the controller interface that says, what's your water cost? And now we can run basically like a cash register of, of water, of a dollar totals. You know, how awesome would that be? That's a  great  Paul: idea. Yeah, that's a great idea.  Andy: The screen of the controller should say. Andy: You know, you spent 264 yesterday to  Paul: operate this piece of equipment. Yeah. That's a good idea. And it's  Andy: not anything that requires any kind of like sophisticated engineering. It's just another variable calculated. Like it's easy.  Paul: Pretty much. You're right. I mean, I don't see that. And well, then there's, there's another idea to put to the idealist. Andy: We got it. Yeah. And you know, we're looking at from the sort of, that's the technology side of it, but even as a contractor putting together a proposal, I think it would be an amazing differentiator to separate someone's business if they included that in their proposal, because it would be a great. Andy: conversation piece to have with the client that would allow the contractor to showcase their knowledge, expertise, and build trust. And the client may say, you know what, you're the only one who, who gave me a proposal with the estimated water costs. And then the contractor might say something like, you know what, you should go ask the other contractors how much their system is going to cost you. Andy: And if they did that, the other contractors may say, I don't, I don't know, I don't, I don't think about that and basically talk themselves out of the sale. Yeah,  Paul: that is a very good point to make if you're a sophisticated contractor and you want to differentiate yourself from the rest of the pack, that is a good ploy to put in your proposal. Paul: Yeah, and that  Andy: would be one way to win the project by and be the highest price is because you're adding value And I don't know anyone who's really doing that. So there you go guys. That's one little nugget Maybe you can experiment with and then reply back and let us know how it went Did it help you close the sale when you included water costs  Paul: and if folks need assistance with it Andy Certainly they can reach out to both you and I we can we can help them prepare that document because you know We've been doing this for more than 20 years. Paul: Ideally, I know I've or that 30. So that that's really what has helped me and my business succeed is being able to tell the end user what they're using and spending in water and what a 10% or 15% reduction of water is going to show in savings and then where they can use. Savings by increasing the efficiency in the system or by investing in technology,  Andy: it would help explain. Andy: So if, if instead of selling a quote unquote, more expensive sprinkler, because it has pressure regulation built in, let's say for those areas where it's not necessarily required, that helps tell the story of why, well, because you're going to save that amount of money right away in the first year. Because of the reduced water usage. Paul: Yeah, and or even as we do, Andy, add some additional data points, i. e. some soil moisture sensors to be able to stop watering in a given period because we now know what the moisture level is in the soil. Whereas other irrigation systems will just water their regular Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule and we can delay or even stop those schedules and we can, or you can prove to the homeowner, here's what it costs every time your schedule runs. Paul: And then here's how many times we feel we can delay the schedule and what that savings are going to be. Yeah,  Andy: because the, the volume of water doesn't really mean much to people because they don't know what a thousand gallons looks like or 50, 000 gallons looks like. 50, 000 seems like maybe it's a lot of water, but if, if we had the, if we changed the narrative. Andy: and switched it to dollars, then the amount of water doesn't really even matter as much. It's more like, how do I go from spending 750 a month to spending 500 a month? It's much more tangible, I think.  Paul: Definitely. Definitely. And then people hope, you know, some of the more sophisticated homeowners and business owners have a budget that they prepare, and then they go from their budget. Paul: So you can, you can assist them with establishing their. Their annual budget costs of what they're going to spend in water.  Andy: So I think when we're thinking about water budgets, and then again, this is where my thought came from because this is what our conversation was with WeatherTrack and using the tools of that controller for water budgeting and you can enter the gallons so that you can put, you know, you can track and trend how many gallons you're using. Andy: I think we really need to switch the conversation to just be about Dollars and cents because everybody understands dollars and cents, but I don't think a lot of people Understand what their water costs or what a certain volume of water, you know, it's it's not tangible to them Yeah, and  Paul: it's really strange that that's been the case with water and again dealing with it for this past 30 years I'd like to see the narrative shifting I like the fact that people are really caring more about the insights and digitization of water And, and now that there's more and more tools to be able to deploy for people to see the insights in their water usage and their patterns. Paul: Mm hmm.  Andy: Mm hmm. Yeah. And again, we kind of talked here about using homeowners, but really, you know, the bigger, the bigger opportunity is for these light commercial, commercial municipal sites that did use a lot of water, you know, say 20, 000 or more a year. I think that's the real hot opportunity.  Paul: And Andy, as you know, there's other sites that use hundreds of thousands of dollars. Paul: You know, or more a year, um, and just a slight decrease of 10% can can really be dramatic when you're spending 100 grand. I mean, think about it. If they're spending 100 grand in water a year, and you, you say 10%. 10, 000. I mean, that is a big number to be able to use to invest into the newer technology.  Andy: And then depending on perhaps what type of, uh, uh, ROI, you know, there could be, uh, a client could say, you know what, anything that can give us a five year ROI, we're going to invest in. Andy: So 10, 000 over five years is 50 grand. There's the budget for the controls retrofit or whatever the retrofit might be.  Paul: And then two, it's not even just about the technology to achieve the savings that they, they could use that money to invest in personnel that can monitor and manage this equipment. And so that's really where I think this particular strategy really takes places where you can sell the end user, the upgraded management. Paul: of the system by showing them the savings by just having someone have eyes and ears looking at the data.  Andy: Yeah, good stuff, man. Well, appreciate the little brain share this morning. Always good to vision future vision with you. And I think that turning water into dollars, we might be on the on the edge of that next revolution. Andy: There's  Paul: no doubt and it's always good to talk with you to the thoughts and brain shares are  Andy: Always great. So there you have it guys. Paul and I are making a prediction that one of the next revolutions, or let's not say revolution evolution is going to be totalizing water in the control systems by dollars, not just gallons and displaying it and talking about it. Andy: Cool. Thanks.  Paul: Good to hear from you. Thank you. Have a good day. Bye bye.

I met the Yonder Oak Wood team back in March to discover how this landscape will be transformed for people and wildlife, and what designing a new wood involves. The vision is to attract plentiful wildlife with healthy habitat that offers refuge from weather extremes and fights climate change. The local community has been involved from the off - volunteer Sally Burton joins us to explain what she gets up to, how excited everyone is about the future and what volunteering means to her. We also hear of efforts to make the site more sustainable, from re-usable fences to tree guard trials, and I get my hands dirty planting a tree. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Well, today I'm off to, well, the wonderfully named Yonder Oak Wood. And although it's called a wood, it's not really a wood yet. This is a very exciting project, but it's in the very early stages of creation. It's near Exmouth in Devon. The Woodland Trust plans on planting, I think something like 13,000 trees there, creating a new environment for nature and wildlife to bounce back. Sounds a great place to go, I'm going to meet a few people there. First off, though, is my contact at the Woodland Trust today, Rachel Harries. Rachel: So this site is Yonder Oak Wood, it's not quite a wood yet, as you can see, but the Woodland Trust bought it in March last year with the aim of creating, creating a new wooded landscape here. So it's 54 hectares, we think it is the biggest woodland creation site that the Trust has done in the South West in in 20 years, so 54 hectares, that's equivalent to about 100 football pitches, and it sits on the sort of two sides of a hidden valley, just a couple of miles inland from the South Coast of Devon. So where we're stood, we can actually see out to the mouth of the Exe estuary, to Dawlish and and possibly to Torquay there as well. Adam: I I think you can just see the estuary over there can't you, just beyond that last bunch of trees is that right? Rachel: You absolutely can, yeah, you absolutely can. And actually the other day when I was here, I saw a white bird fly over that was an egret that was obviously based in the estuary, so really exciting. Adam: And why, now this site, I happen to know is, it it's quite important because of the anniversary and just explain to me, explain to me a little bit about that. Rachel: That's right. Last year was the 50th anniversary of the Woodland Trust and the first site that our founder Ken Watkins ever bought was in Devon. So it's really emblematic that we are now creating a new woodland, probably I think it's about 30 miles away as the crow flies from the Avon Valley Woods where we were started. But we're now creating a new woodland in the county of our birthplace, which is incredibly exciting, and we wanted to create something that would have meaning for local people and it would like, it would be tied into the local environment, so we did things like we looked at the name of the stream, we looked at old field names and we came up with a shortlist of names that we could then offer out to the local community and ask them which one, which one they wanted and what they wanted to call this new site. And one of the field names was Yonder Oak Park. And that's really quite special because as you look across the site, you can see all these incredible old oak trees over yonder, off in the distance. So I have to admit that was my favourite but we let the community choose and they voted for Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Right well you're gonna take me on a little walk around here, so just explain to me a little bit about what we're gonna see. Rachel: OK. Well, we're starting here on a sloping field that has old oak trees dotted about the landscape. Some of these are a couple of hundred years old and there's one in particular which we can see just off in the distance, which is one of my, one of my favourites that is standing almost on on stilts. And the stilts are actually its roots that would have once been embedded in a Devon bank, which is a sort of a solid hedgerow that we find in Devon that has trees planted on the top and the hedgerow and the bank has been taken away. So the tree now kind of stands about a metre above the height that it would have once been. Adam: Which one, I can't tell which one that is? Rachel: So can you see there's two in that field over there, we'll walk past it so we can have another look at it. Adam: Yes, I see that, I see that. OK, maybe my eyesight's not very good. So and this goes, these are currently separate fields and there's what a field and then a hedgerow, another field, then another hedgerow, then the tree supposedly on stilts and beyond that what looks like a solar panel farm. So is this the, what will be the new woodland all the way up to the solar panels? Rachel: We've worked to design a mixture of of habitats here, so we have about 5 different fields where we're doing much more intensive planting and that's what people would kind of imagine that would grow into what people would imagine a woodland would look like, but then in some of these other fields, so the field that we're stood in and a couple of other fields that you can kind of see off in the distance there, we're going to do a mix of open space, glades and groves. We'll plant some more of these kind of trees that will be allowed to to thrive and to spread on their own, but we'll also plant a mixture of of scrub and shrubs, so that's more lower growing trees, things like blackthorn, hawthorn dogrose, spindle, just to create a really good mix of habitats for all the birds and insects and bats that we, you know, we know are going to thrive here. Adam: And you, you've arranged for us to meet a a couple of people, haven't you? Rachel: Yeah. So we're going to be walking around with Paul Allen, he's our site manager and we're going to meet Sally Burton, who is one of our volunteers here. Adam: The weather's been kind to us so far, but it is a little nippy so we shouldn't keep them waiting. So do you wanna lead on and we'll go meet them. Rachel: Yes, let's go. Adam: And I'm told there there was some sea shantying going on here, which strikes me as odd because we're not, we're not in the middle of the sea or anything. So what's the story behind that? Rachel: Well, we're not far from the sea. We can see, we can see the, we can see the sea here. But we were contacted by a a group of local acapella singers who were inspired by what we're doing here and had decided to take some modern folk songs and to rewrite them to to reference the wood. So they came out one weekend and they sang to our to all of our planters, but we also talked a little bit about sea shanties, which I like the idea of becoming tree shanties. So they took a traditional sea shanty and they changed the lyrics. So we now have a song all about Yonder Oak Wood that we could sing along to. Adam: Great. And that we're going to hear that now from from you. So here's Rachel with her tree shanty. Is that right? No? Rachel *laughs* I don't think so. Adam: Do you have a recording of it? Rachel: I we do have a recording of it actually, yes. Adam: You never know. I don't know. Maybe a couple of teas or beers later, I might persuade you to sing. Alright. Brilliant, Rachel. Thank you very much. Rachel: Thank you. That's great. So here's Paul. He's the site manager and he's going to take us on a little walk down through Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Paul, thank you very much. Nice to see you. So you are the site manager. Paul: Hello there. I am. Yes, I'm responsible for turning these fields into a wild, wildlife rich area. Adam: OK. Well, go on. Let's lead on. We can have a chat about that. Brilliant. So yeah. So these are early days, Paul. I understand you you are responsible for designing the woodland. What does that actually involve? Paul: So really, I mean the the the first place you you start is is kind of kind of getting a sense of where the place is and what the place is and the the key bit here as we walk through it is you can see these big old oak trees and so we've based a lot of the design on that. So you can picture in the future lots more of these big old trees that will have lots of deadwood, lots of rot holes where birds can nest, and invertebrates burrow in. And the way we're kind of going to maintain it is we're we're going to put animals in and have low intensity grazing and then you kind of build in where the views are. Adam: I mean it must be really exciting because it can't be that often that you you get actually a green field or literally a greenfield site. But it's more or less bare. It's a plain piece of paper for you to design. That's quite, I mean, it's exciting, quite an honour, perhaps a little daunting? Paul: I've I've done probably 30 years of nature conservation and most of what you do is you take bits of habitat and you try and restore them, you try and protect them. You very rarely get a chance to actually create something brand spanking new. It is really phenomenally exciting for all of us, because if you think about it in the future, 100 years time, this place will be on maps. It will be on aerial photographs, you know so not only are we doing stuff that's great for wildlife and great for climate, we're effectively creating history as well, which is an awesome thing to be a part of. Adam: Yeah, so on the map it should say Yonder Oak Wood, brackets Paul Allen. *both laugh* Rachel's in the background going it's my wood, it's my wood. There might be a battle for the name. Paul: I'm I'm doing the design that says it from the sky it'll say Paul was here. *both laugh* Adam: Yes, yes very good, on Google Maps you can, you know, in 100 years time they'll go well how did those trees get planted in the shape of Paul? *laughs* So, OK, look, we're, we're, I've paused because we're at the we're at the top of the hill, almost. So what will happen around us? At the moment there are three or four trees in a line and not much else. So what will be here? Paul: So if you if you picture it in the future, what we'll have is we'll have a a, a a scattering of big old oak trees like we can see across the site and if you look over to our left, you can see an area that actually was the former quarry on the site. But if you look at it, you can see gorse that's currently in flower, even though we're in a freezing day at the beginning of March. And all of that is really good for wildlife. It's got lots of pollen and and nectar and lots of edge that birds and insects really like. And essentially what we're gonna get in the future is a combination of these big old oak trees and that lovely scrubby stuff that's great for wildlife. Adam: So here not too dense? Paul: Not too dense here no, not at all. Adam: So you get the view, you get a nice view and it's a mixed habitat. Paul: You, you, you, you get a view, it's it's very, we've we've constantly said we're creating a kind of a wooded landscape not a wood. Adam: Right. Well, we should carry on walking out, I have a tendency, just not to walk. I can see right over there some white poles which look like tree guards. Which does raise this issue I mean of how you're going to protect the trees because plastic tree guards have become quite controversial. Do you have a plan around that? Paul: Yeah, so we've got we've got, last year the the Woodland Trust decided that it would stop using the virgin plastic tree guards on its sites, which is actually a bit problematic because there aren't really any other types of tree guard that are commercially available at scale, so we're doing a combination of things here. The the main way is we're going to deer fence the site to stop the deer coming in and then we're also in some places we're trialling different types of tree tubes, so we're looking at one at the moment that bizarrely, has been made of sugar beet so it smells like golden syrup when you walk up to it, which is quite weird, and the ones you can see over there are actually recycled from another site. So we're, we're still, we're still using the tree guards that are effectively usable. Adam: Right. You talk about trying to protect the trees from deer. Which does raise the issue of other wildlife. I mean, clearly, we're gonna be hoping that wildlife get attracted into the area once this starts growing. At the moment though, have you have you seen much evidence of sort of new wildlife or any wildlife? Paul: It's still very early days yet. But we've seen lots of buzzards there's there's actually quite a lot of hornets nests in, in the existing oak trees. Adam: Is that a good thing? That sounds terrifying. Paul: *laughs* I I I personally I quite like it. Adam: You're pleased about that, OK. I think a lot of people always feel it takes generations and generations to plant trees. I know I have been at planting events where some young people have planted and said, oh, I think my children and my grandchildren might come to see this tree and then are surprised, actually, they come back to see their own tree and it grows quicker than they might expect. How quickly is this going to develop into anything recognisable as woodland? Paul: So I mean, with within 10 years, it will absolutely look like a woodland, although obviously still a young woodland and different tree species grow at different rates. So the silver birches and the rowans will actually be 6 foot high within two or three years potentially, whereas the the oak trees clearly will grow a lot slower. Adam: Wow, silver birch and rowan, 6 foot high in how long? Paul: Two or three years, if they if they take well. I mean it it it it varies depending on the soil type and all that sort of stuff, but they do grow very, very quickly. Adam: Blimey. And tell me a bit about how you got into all of this. I mean, I know you say you've been doing this a while. Paul: I started well I started off volunteering actually with the British Trust for Conservation Volunteers a long time ago, and I got known by the Norfolk Wildlife Trust and rather randomly, I was having a beer in a pub and they went, do you fancy a job, and I went, alright then. Adam: Very good. So you've learnt on the job about trees? Paul: I I reeducated a few, some time ago but yeah a lot of it was learned as I went along. Adam: I've been very insulting, you've you've probably got a PhD in trees or something. But I do like the idea of, I got my job from a pub, I think I think that's always, I remember a story, so I don't know if you remember a film critic called Barry Norman, he always used to say, I I remember him telling a story, there's a pub around the BBC called, I think it's the White, White Horse or something like that. And he went when he was unemployed, he used to sit there pretending he was writing scripts so that BBC producers would come in for a lunchtime beer, which they don't do anymore, but they used to and they would go, oh, Barry, yeah there's a job we have and he wasn't working at all, he was just trying to be in the pub around and that's how he got his work, so that's clearly not just media, it's it's the tree world as well. Paul: It's it's it's very much very very clearly, a lot harder now than it was, because at that point in time, I guess nature conservation really wasn't a career. Adam: Yeah. We've come across a locked fence, but Paul has a key, there we are. There we are. Into the next next field. Ah, right away. Here's a very different type of fence, and I presume this is to keep the deer out. So first of all, massive fence, is this to keep the deer out? Paul: This is to keep the deer out. Yes, absolutely. And what will happen where we're standing, the hedgerow will creep out into the fence and obviously the wood that we're planting inside will also start to hide the fence. So the fence over time will disappear apart from the gateways. Adam: So I mean, there's a good 7 odd foot here between the hedgerow and the fence. You're saying that that hedgerow will naturally grow another 7 foot? Paul: Yep. So what what what we've got in this hedgerow, actually it's it's it's quite specific to this area is we've got a lot of a lot of small leaved elm and we've also got a lot of blackthorn in it and both of those sucker. So as as we've taken the the the intensive farming off the land the the shrubs will just sucker out and gradually spread into the field. Adam: And look, and we're standing by the main gate and there's a huge tree trunk here, which is holding the post. And I can see the bark coming off. Now is that is that deer trying to get in there do you think? Paul: No, that that's actually that's just part of the process of actually creating the post. Adam: Ohh, that's just that's just me being an idiot. OK, I thought I was being a clever nature detective *laughs* Paul: I mean what one of the one of the key bits about this fence though, is that that the Woodland Trust is now focusing very heavily on sustainability with everything it does. The, the, the reduction in use of plastic is one of those key bits. But these are sweet chestnut posts, so they there's no chemical preservatives in them or anything like that, and they're kind of the the the main posts at the corners, if you like, of the fence. And then we're using a metal fence with metal posts and and the idea is that when the trees have grown up after 20 years and they're no longer a threat from the deer, we can take this and reuse it elsewhere, so we're constantly thinking about that sustainability stuff all the time. Adam: Right. So we're in this more protected field. Which I can see has been laid out actually. Is this for the planting scheme, little posts and sort of lines of rope? Paul: Yeah. So one of the issues with going plastic free is it becomes very difficult to actually see what you've planted. Because if you look at here it just still looks like a field but actually there's somewhere in the region of well around 2 to 3000 trees already in there. Adam: Oh gosh, I didn't realise that. So yes, with the plastic safe, plastic guards on a tree you see these white telescopes sticking up all over the field, so there's thousands of trees here, we just can't see them. Right and a a lot of that has been planted by volunteers? Paul: We've had somewhere in the region of 400-500 members of the public come over four days, so we've got a a set of volunteers who have who've have have they've been brilliant actually, they've come and they've helped kind of manage all the public and they've helped work with the schools, they've helped us set out where the trees are going, we couldn't have done it without them at all. And here is one of our volunteers now, here's Sally. Adam: Brilliant. Alright, well, let's go over and chat to Sally. So Sally. Sally Burton. Hello. So I've heard lots of lovely things about you. So just tell me you're a volunteer, which in this context means what? Sally: Hello. That's nice. All sorts of things. I've helped this in during February with the public planting days and with the school planting days, helped children dig holes, some of the children are too small to get the spade in the ground very easily. I've planted quite a lot of trees myself. Adam: And why why did you get involved? Sally: I'd been looking for a while to volunteer for an organisation that does things outdoors and something a bit physical and so when the Woodland Trust appeared in the village hall I just went up and said do you need volunteers and they said yes please so I signed up straight away. Adam: And I mean, what does it offer you? Why is it a fun thing to do? Sally: I enjoy working with the other people. The staff are great and the other volunteers have been great fun. In fact, I've reconnected with someone I knew a few years ago and she's been helping up here as well, so that's been great. I like being outside, I love being outdoors. I don't mind about the weather. I like doing physical things and it's it's great to see, to make a difference. Adam: So yeah, so what what sort of difference do you feel you're making then? Sally: Well contributing to turning this basically what looks like an empty field into a forest. That's really amazing. People have been very excited about it. Lots of local people came up and planted on the public open days. Everyone's looking forward to being able to come up here and experience it themselves and enjoy the trees and the views obviously the views across the estuary and out to sea are beautiful. And there are lots of birds already. It's a very beautiful place. Adam: And so how much of your time does it actually take up? Sally: Well, during February and the beginning of March, quite a lot, I've been coming up for days, getting here about 8:15 and going home about 4 o'clock. Adam: Right. So why is that, why is that the the busy period? Sally: Because that's when the tree planting has been going on. Adam: First time you've ever planted a tree? Sally: I've planted a couple on my allotment, but certainly the first time I've planted on such a scale. Adam: Right. Have you kept count, how many trees are you in? Sally: No. Well, on one of the public planting days, I'd finished registering people and I planted 25 I kept count of those and on Wednesday this week, a school was in and when they cleared off, I finished planting the trees in their little area. And I think there was about 30 there. I'm not sure I lost count after about 12. Adam: There should be scouts or sort of brownie badges, shouldn't there, I'm I'm 100 tree-er, you know. Very good. Fantastic. Well, look, thank you very much. I can't believe this is the the the the field in which you've planted. Sally: It is, you can't see many of the trees. Adam: I I can't see any of the trees, what do you mean many of them. Ohh a couple yes. Sally: Across there you can see some with leaves on those are sessile oaks which were planted a little while ago, and they show up. Adam: Any of those yours? Sally: Possibly *laughs* They show up because of the leaves. But over there, most of the area there is planted. Adam: OK, brilliant. You're talking about planting, Rachel has appeared over the hill. She's brandishing a erm Sally: A spade. Adam: A spade *laughs* I forgot the name. You can see how ill equipped I am to do this. I forgot the name of what she's, so I think she's tempting us to go plant so let's go off. Adam: *coughs* Sorry, I'm already having a heart attack from the idea of physical exercise, I haven't done anything yet. OK, so we we have a spade and this is a virgin bit of land, no, no trees planted yet? Sally: No trees in this section yet. Adam: So I get the honour of planting the first tree. Sally: The first one. Adam: So you're gonna talk me through this and I'm gonna. Sally: So the first job... Adam: Oh yes alright, I'm already jumping ahead of myself. Sally: The first job is to screef? To screef the area... Adam: What what is what is screefing? Sally: ...which is where you do this to kick away the grass with your shoe to make a square or an area to get rid of the grass, doesn't have to be too big, not much wider than the blade of the spade, put the spade in there, and then don't lift it yet come round that side and make a square on that side. Yeah, cut it down. Then on that side... Adam: I feel I've hit the... Sally: One of the pebbles. And then the final side and then you could probably lever out a lump of turf. Adam: Then I can lift it out. Sally: OK, here's a tree. And we need to make sure when it's in the hole, the soil covers up to just above the top of the the highest root. So if we test that, that's not deep enough, so need to go deeper. Adam: It's not deep enough. Overall, I'm not doing particularly well I have to say. Sally: Let's have a look. That's looking good there. Adam: You think that's all right? Sally: Yeah, that's OK. So the next job is to crumble the soil. Adam: With our hands? Sally: With our hands, back into the hole, loose bits first. Adam: They didn't say I was actually gonna get my hands dirty. Sally: *laughs* And then if you've got any clods that have got grass on them make sure they go in with the grass facing down. Adam: Ok do you know why? Sally: So that the grass will die and then it won't be in competition with the tree as the grass uses a lot of the water. Adam: It's a bit leaning a bit, isn't it? Sally: It is a bit, let's push some more soil in. Adam: You see, it's fine now, in 20 years time, someone will come and go, who the hell planted that tree, it's at 45 degrees! Sally: Then the last job is you stand up. Adam: Yeah, stand up. Sally: And use your heel to press the soil down to push out all the gaps so that it doesn't dry out if it's sunny. Adam: And how compact, we don't want to make it too compact. Sally: Quite firm, quite firm. Adam: Yeah? Do you know what I don't, I feel that's leaning, that's no good. Sally: Don't worry, it'll straighten itself up. And the final thing is you do the tug test. Where you just get hold of it and just pull it gently. And if it stays where it is, then it's planted properly. Adam: I name this tree, well and truly planted. Sally: Congratulations. Adam: Thank you very much. Very good. That's brilliant. Well, I have to say although me and Sally were planting, Rachel and Paul were looking were looking on. So Paul's still here, how did I do? Paul: Well, let me just check, shall I? Adam: *laughs* You're doing the tug test. Paul: It's it's been really fun actually with with, with the the the public when you come and kind of just check it, you can see them all hold their breath to make sure they're doing it right. Adam: And it comes out *laughs* Is it alright? Paul: No, it's grand. Absolutely brilliant. Dog rose it, it's a little bit crooked, but you know dog rose will naturally straighten itself up. Adam: Will it correct itself? Paul: Yeah and it's kind of you can already see it's a bit of a straggly thing and it'll do its thing and it'll be fine. Adam: Fantastic. What is your sense, really, of of what this might be in the future and how exciting is that for you? Paul: I think in the future, you know, we're we're we're we've got something here that at the very beginning that is gonna be hopefully really important for wildlife and that most of the design is about trying to get as much wildlife here as possible because we're close to the pebblebed heaths it will it will act as a little bit of a refuge in the heat as potentially the climate heats up in the future and that's all really brilliant. And then the other exciting bit is the fact that we've started from the beginning with people involved. That, that, that scenario, but when you look in the future, the you know the the trees that we're planting today are going to be like these big old oak trees in 3-4 hundred years time that when you get your head around it is really quite amazing. And these trees and this wood will be on maps in in the future, and you know, we're creating history, we're changing landscapes and it's all such a a positive thing to be involved in. Adam: That is amazing that in 3-4 hundred years there'll be a woodland here, the history of who planted it, the history of us being here today will be lost. They won't know who planted these trees perhaps, they won't know the story, but the trees will be here. They'll be there, they'll tell their own story in the future. It's an amazing thing to be part of isn't it. Paul: Yeah and you know if if you think about how many times do you get to do something that will still be here in three, four, 500 years time? That's just incredible. Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you and don't have any idea of where to look, do go to the Woodland Trust website and its woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, so that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

Today we revisit one of our most popular episodes, an early interview with Sheryl Paul, author of "The Conscious Bride". Sheryl's work allows us to reflect on how the pain, grief, discomfort, and vulnerability that can arise throughout the wedding process can actually be doorways into joy if we are willing to let them in.    Music by Terry Hughes   Links: Sheryl Paul's work The Conscious Bride Shelter in Place Podcast   Also Check Out: Inviting Grief to the Wedding My Self-Marriage Story   Rate This Podcast Full Transcript   Paul: I'm always interested in what's not being talked about what people are experiencing, but are trying to stuff away, trying to sequester, trying to sweep into the corner under the rug... when all that does is create shame and all that does is create anxiety.   Sheryl Paul has a unique ability to see the invisible, to see what has been silenced. Her book "The Conscious Bride" has been helping couples prepare for marriage for 20 years - and prepare in a very specific way. Her work helps couples create room for all of the emotions that come with transition, not just the picture perfect ones. Funny thing is, that allows for even more joy. Join me for a conversation with Sheryl Paul.   This is Shame Piñata. I'm Colleen Thomas. Welcome to Shame Piñata, where we talk about creating rites of passage for real-life transitions. When I got engaged six years ago, a good friend of mine gave me a book called "The Conscious Bride". Now, I'm not a reader, as my husband will tell you, but I devoured this book. I loved it because it touched on the shadow, the stuff we don't talk about, the stuff that gets in our way when we want to feel one way but actually feel a myriad of other ways all at the same time. It named the shadow that hovers over the wedding: the attachment, the fear, the uncertainty, the hidden power-struggles and the grief that lies beneath them, and that a big part of stepping into a new life is letting go of the old one - and not just for the couple. The Conscious Bride gave me permission to feel all the ways, and it helped me create room for everyone else to feel all the ways too, so ultimately, we could all process the transition without getting into weird fights about random things. I was so happy to have a chance to speak with Sheryl Paul.    Thomas: So what led you to write this book?   Paul: So, I was in a master's program around that time. I was at Pacifica Graduate Institute in Santa Barbara, which I don't know if you're familiar with, but it has a very strong Jungian focus. And I had always been interested in rites of passages and I had a deep sense that there was a lot that was not being talked about around the wedding. And I started to interview women and I did a lot of interviews, especially when it came time to write the book, which came from my master's thesis. So it started out as as a thesis and then evolve into a book. And I started to see that there was a big gap in the cultural conversation around around transitions in general. All transitions are bypassed and overlooked, but particularly the wedding and then in particular, how much focus there is on the joy and the perfection and everything has to be blissful and ecstatic from the moment of the proposal into the first year of the wedding, and there was just no conversation happening about the shadow, about the death experience, about what women (and men) are actually experiencing quite a bit of a time. And, you know, the more I researched and the more I looked and the more I spoke, the more it became quite clear to me that just that again, that there was a real gap in the conversation around this pivotal rite of passage, one of our few ceremonies that we still invoke in the culture. And yet it's done in such a way where we really gloss over the element of a transition, of the reality that when you are in transition, you are in a death experience, you are in a liminal zone, you are between identities, you are letting go, you are grieving. And we only expect people to feel joyful. It creates a lot of anxiety and it creates even more chaos than there naturally would be around an event like this. Because I'm feeling sad, because I have a sense of loss, because I feel like a part of me is dying, because I'm not over-the-moon ecstatic... something must be wrong with me, or with my partner, or with the decision to get married - something's wrong. And it's an incredibly deep sigh of relief to the soul to know that nothing is wrong. In fact, the more you let those difficult feelings in, the more you will open to the joy; that the pain and the grief and the discomfort and vulnerability are the doorways into the joy, into what we are expected to see all and into what we hope to feel. And what I started to say earlier was that that the wedding more than any other transition, I think, has (probably being pregnant becoming a mother comes close) carries a very strong cultural expectation of unilateral joy and it is supported in a big way by the wedding industry that sells perfection and sells joy. So it's a it's very big money behind selling us the bill of goods by selling us this message that you are supposed to be joyful and the way to do that is to create a perfect event.   Thomas: How do you work with someone if they're just starting to realize that they don't have to only feel joyful?   Paul: So, I tell them to read my book. And, you know, it's really the first part it's about re educating people to understand all of the normal and necessary feelings that accompany this transition. And once they understand that everything they're feeling is normal and necessary, they can start to let it in and and feel it, feel the grief, feel the loss, feel the vulnerability, feel the loneliness. These are all normal feelings that accompany transitions. So once we give ourselves permission to feel without that overlay of "because I'm feeling this it means there's something wrong" everything changes from there. We don't then have to misassign meaning to the feelings and to think, "Because I'm feeling sad, it means I'm making mistake." No, it has nothing to do with that. You're feeling sad because you are in a rite of passage. You're feeling sad because you are in the death experience, letting go of this identity, this primary identity as single person, as daughter, and shifting into an entirely new stage of life, a new identity. And there is no way to go through that without feeling grief.   Thomas: You spend a good portion of the book talking about how the bride is separating from the father/father figure and the mother/mother figure and the friends. Can you say more about that process?   Paul: Yes, so it can go a few different ways. If the bride is very close to her father, that's one set of emotions and experiences where there is tends to be a lot of grief, a lot of crying, really good, medicinal, necessary crying to make that separation process... and to make it more effective to make it more complete to make it more conscious. Again, in the naming, to say, I am separating from my dad, I am no longer going to be... Yes, I'm his daughter, but not in the same way, not as my primary identity. That my new partner is going to be number one and I'm transferring allegiance. So, that's one example of one way that it can go if if someone's very close to their father. If somebody doesn't have a close relationship with their father or there is no father figure in their life, that's a different kind of grief of the loss of not having had that or never having had that. The same as somebody has passed away. If somebody who's getting married and their mother's no longer alive. You know, that's, that's one way that grief can come through, as opposed to a mother who is very much alive and very much involved. And then there's a separation. There's… there's a loosening of cords that is required.    Thomas: I'm curious as you're speaking how this applies, I'm sure it's very different, but how it applies to folks who were older when they get married, or maybe a second marriage.   Paul: It can be different, it can be similar. It depends. It depends on a lot of factors. But regardless of the age, especially if it's a first marriage and you're getting married at 40, you're still letting go of a massive identity. And in some ways, it's even more of a letting go because of all of those years that you spent as a non-married person. And so there's a lot of grieving, a lot of shedding of the independence, the separateness, all of the control that you have when you are a non-married person, that every inch of your life is your own: your home, your space, how you spend your time, how you organize your weekend, it's all yours. And so that is its own massive death experience for somebody who marries later, you know, and who has had that many more years than someone who's 22 if you're 42, that's a lot of years of being the sole architect of your life.   Thomas: So you work with people around transitions, all kinds of transitions now, and I'm curious if ceremony plays a part in that with them.   Paul: I'm a big fan of ceremony. Because my work is largely over the internet. I'm not the one doing the ceremony with them. I would love to be that person, but I'm not. But I always encourage people to create ceremony and create rituals. And so, you know, if it's somebody getting married... and I've had a lot more men come my way, by the way, since I wrote The Conscious Bride. And I'm thinking of some right now who are in one of my small coaching groups. And he's getting married on Saturday, and I won't, I won't share the specifics, but it's... because it's his story. But it's really beautiful to witness men in their transitional process and the rituals that they come up with because I encourage people to find their own rituals that are meaningful to them. Ways to acknowledge the end of you know, in his sake, his bachelorhood that that time in his life is over. And so he has been sharing these incredibly potent rituals that have come to him for ways of recognizing that that time in his life is over. And what ritual does is, as you know, is it, it concretizes, it makes it and embodies what's happening, so that it brings it out of just that realm of talking about it and it sends it into a realm that we can't see with our five senses, but very much exists and yet calls on the five senses to help transmute the experience into another form. And so rituals help us cross over that sometimes very scary divide that just looks like a big, cavernous, empty space, crossing from one identity to a new identity, from one stage of life to the next. And without the rituals we are... we're pretty lost and so, you know, again, as I, as I said earlier, the wedding is one of the few ceremonies that we have, which comes with ritual. A lot of people tend to minimize or diminish the ceremonial aspect because they're so focused on the party and the reception, you know, that's where all of the energy goes. When really, it's the ceremony that has so much power to carry us over the divide between one stage and the next.   Thomas: And that's something I'm trying to encourage and put seeds out in the world for as well, that people take that the ritual, the ceremony of the marriage, the wedding and they, they feel free to do it their way so that it's powerful and is as powerful and meaningful for the couple as possible.   Paul: Yes, yes! And I think we are at this extraordinary time in our world where we have freedom to do that, where we are breaking out of the traditions that have gone stale and revitalizing them with personal meaning of what is meaningful for you. And there may be long-standing time-honored traditions that are still meaningful. And I'm by no means one to throw everything out that we've come from, because many of those rituals are gorgeous and meaningful - but only if they're meaningful for the individual, right? Only if they land in a place where something inside of you says yes, right? That helps me, that bolsters me, that comforts me. Right? So, you know, whether it's at a Jewish wedding standing under the Chuppah, you know, it's just this beautiful symbol of, of our new home and and this, you know, long standing tradition... if that's meaningful to somebody great. If it's not, then it really.. it's not going to do anything for you on a spiritual level.   I shared with Sheryl that before my wedding, I created a self-commitment ceremony for myself. And in that ceremony I presenced all of my Ancestral grandmothers with the acknowledgement of how important marriage might have been for them, how much of a survival tool. I did this because women's  standing in society has evolved so much even since my mother's generation, but yet we are still connected to our Ancestral legacy and felt like a really important thing to me.    Paul: That's incredibly beautiful that you did that and so powerful and it's probably the number one fear that comes up for women that I'm working with in their pre-wedding time in their engagement, is the fear of what does marriage mean? And does it mean that I am beholden to this person now and I lose all sense of self and I become boring and frumpy and... This is the legacy. This is what we've been handed, right? This is what it has meant for thousands and thousands of years is that for women, marriage has meant really the death of self: I exist, to take care of the man and to take care of the children and that's it. And so there's this very deep ancestral legacy that we have to consciously break with and recognize that we are so lucky and we are so blessed to be on this new threshold, that we get to redefine what marriage means for us. And we only can really know that after we've taken the leap, because on the other side, on the first side, on the engagement side, it just all looks and sounds so scary to most women. And you know, that's why I have so many exercises in The Conscious Bride, more-so I think in The Conscious Bride's Wedding Planner, on what does it mean to be a wife? What does that mean to you? What does the word wife connote? When you think of wife, what is the connotation for you? And it's very rare that someone's going to say, "Oh, I see this rad, sexy woman, you know, like, doing like, the dance on the rooftops." Like, no, that's not usually what we think of when we hear the word wife. But it could be. More and more we are redefining that. And we are seeing that. And so I tell people, but look out into the world today and find those those models of marriage where you see a woman who is doing her life fully, you know, and yes, maybe she's also a mother and she's, you know, loves being married and she's fully committed to her path and and making her offerings, and doing her work in the world. Right? Separate from wife and mother. So, yeah, I love, I love that I love what you share. I love what you did. I think that is not only powerful, but essential on that ceremonial ritual level to recognize what we've come from.   Thomas: I'm just so happy and honored to have the chance to talk to you after, after all this time of really, really, really appreciating your book and your wisdom.   Paul: Yeah, thank you, Colleen.   It means a great deal to me to have the opportunity to share Sheryl's wisdom with you. I hope that you are able to use it or pass it along to a friend. Here's one final bit of wisdom, a quote from The Conscious Bride. "A marriage is a rite of passage no matter when it occurs, and the woman must still pass through the phases of her transformation. She must die, she must sit in the unknown, and then she will be reborn."   Sheryl Paul is the author of The Conscious Bride and The Conscious Bride's Wedding Planner. Her website contains a plethora of resources for addressing life transitions. Learn more about Sheryl and her work at https://conscious-transitions.com. Our music is by Terry Hughes. If you like the show, please take a minute to review it on Apple Podcasts. Learn more at shamepinata.com. I'm Colleen Thomas. Thanks for listening.

This is a unique episode. Short and sweet. Since David and Paul really don't have a chance to introduce themselves in regular episodes, they thought it might be good to take an opportunity to do so in this episode.After introductions, they share announcements regarding the future of this podcast.Episode Links:Mastering The MarketplaceHosts:Paul Maher is General Manager of the Commercial Marketplace Service Team at Microsoft. Follow him on LinkedIn and Twitter.David Starr is a Principal Software Development Engineer in the Commercial Marketplace Services Team at Microsoft. Follow him on LinkedIn and Mastodon.Transcript:DAVID: Rebooting the podcast with your hosts, Paul Maher, and David Starr.Welcome to the Azure for Executives Podcast, the show for technology leaders. This podcast covers trends and technologies in industries and how Microsoft Azure is enabling them. Here, you'll hear from thought leaders in various industries and technologies on topics important to you. So I'm sure you've noticed that the Azure for Executives Podcast has been on a bit of a hiatus for a few months. Well, we're back. And we're back with some really great news, which I'll leave for a few minutes as we kind of settle into this episode. Now, this is a unique episode, as it'll be pretty short and sweet. We don't have any guests today. But instead, you get my co-host, Paul Maher, and me talking a little bit about the show and our futures. Since we don't really have a chance to introduce ourselves in regular episodes, we thought it might be good to take an opportunity to do so in this episode. So after introductions, we'll have some announcements regarding the future of the podcast. Paul, why don't you talk a little bit about what you do at Microsoft and maybe some of your passions?PAUL: Thanks, David. And it's great to be back. And it's nice to have the opportunity, as you said, to actually introduce ourselves. We spend a lot of time talking to our guests, so it's a fun opportunity to say hi to our listeners. And so, just a little bit about myself, I mean, I've worked in various business and technology-related leadership roles throughout my career with some of the largest companies worldwide across multiple industries. But for the past few years, I've really been focused on cloud across many different roles and initiatives. So you could call me kind of really the cloud evangelist if you will. But currently, at Microsoft, I lead the commercial marketplace services organization. And my focus is really on helping businesses transform by moving to the Microsoft Azure Cloud and growing sales through the Microsoft commercial marketplace. So great to be here, great to have the opportunity to introduce myself to the listeners. And, David, maybe you want to take the opportunity to do the same.DAVID: Sure. Thanks, Paul. I'm a Principal Software Development Engineer here at Microsoft, and I live in the same organization as Paul, and that is the commercial marketplace services team. And, Paul, if you think back, you hired me directly. And I was about number seven in the org at that time, if you'll recall. And --PAUL: That's right. Lucky number 7, David. Lucky number 7.DAVID: [laughs] Indeed. And we have a pretty good-sized organization now, so we've grown quite a bit over the last four years, which is how long I've been with the team, four years and counting. So I'll tell you that this is my second stint at Microsoft. And my first go-round was working on Visual Studio. For those who might use Visual Studio on the show, may not be you but people who work for you; I put a feature, or I was part of a team, I should say, a good-sized team that put a feature called CodeLens into Visual Studio. So that was a good piece of work. And today, instead, I focus on working with partners for the commercial marketplace, as you've heard, a pretty good focus on the commercial marketplace in our past episodes. Well, what that means is that I take consults. These are sort of one-time answer questions for partners who might be struggling a little bit with their onboarding or work with partners in a longer-term engagement to get them from start to finish and get their products onboarded to the commercial marketplace. So that's the essence of what I do. I work with partners in that context. And my little side project baby I have to mention, is Mastering the Marketplace. That is a resource where you or your technologists on your team can go to learn more about how to do that implementation. And we have videos and code and hands-on labs to grow skills, so all that good stuff to help you get going. And the URL for that will be posted in the show notes. I'll say here it's aka.ms/masteringthemarketplace. With that, Paul, what's the big news that we were talking about?PAUL: So the big news, even though we are part of the Microsoft commercial marketplace organization and that's our day job and our priority, we've taken a step back. And we feel like broadening the focus of the podcast here to include all topics Azure will be really relevant and interesting to our listeners, and executives, and leaders who are looking to move to Azure. So with a goal of making sure that folks who tune in and listen can get the best experience and the best knowledge exchange from tuning into the podcast, we'll be broadening the reach of the podcast to cover all things Azure which I'm super excited about. Historically, we made the decision to have a singular focus on the show. But I think the new format will really benefit everyone and really be applicable to a diverse audience. So I'm excited that we're expanding our remit, expanding our scope, and excited about the topics that will be upcoming in future shows. So with that, I mean, David, do you want to talk a little bit about the new format for our listeners?DAVID: Sure, Paul. And just to reiterate, I'm really excited too about where the show is going. I think we're going to have a really good dearth of topics and be a show that is more of a resource for technology decision-makers, so as we said, with regard to format, but as we said, our focus will be broadening. And while our audience demographic of leadership positions within technology organizations remains the same, our show topics will include specific technologies, patterns and practices, recommendations, and guidance on how to get the most from Azure, particularly as it relates to your business processes, your business goals, and how to achieve your technology goals. Our intent is to bring experts to the show and share real-world experiences to help you be successful in your technological adventures.PAUL: That's great, David. So with that, carrying on then, now we understand a little bit about that new format where we're broadening the scope. We have lots of good stuff in terms of thinking about all things Azure patterns and practices, recommendations. What I'm excited about is that it's really hopefully going to be a consumable digest for all listeners to learn about all things Azure. Specifically, David, is there anything you are excited about the future of the show?DAVID: You bet there is. I'm excited to talk with some of the great guests we've got lined up and learn from them about many aspects of using Azure, how they've implemented their solutions, how they've perhaps even changed their business to work with cloud technologies, and how they drive new business and enable technologists in their organizations. And I won't give away any spoilers here, Paul, but I will say that I'm glad to be back producing the show. So to the listeners, whether you're a long-time listener or someone who's just joining us for the first time, I'm positive that you'll enjoy the diversity of conversation. I have to tell you, Paul, I listen to a bunch of other podcasts. I don't listen to us really after [laughs] we've produced the show. But I love podcasts myself, technology ones in particular. And I especially like them for my morning walks to and from my gym. And for me, that means I like about a 25 to 35-minute episode, which is what we'll target for the show going forward. We'll try and keep it within those bounds. Now, speaking of excited about the show, how about you, Paul?PAUL: Yeah, I'm super excited, David. I mean, I'm looking forward to rebooting the show. It's been a little while. I've enjoyed the summer time off, but now it's time to get back to business. Just to reiterate what you've said, David, I think a 25 to 35-minute sweet spot is great. I think it's long enough for the content to be meaningful but not too long, where it becomes a little bit of a challenge to get through the contents. So we're excited about that.  We've carried forward the learnings from our podcasts, and we've listened to the listeners. And so excited about the format, excited about the timings. And I hear you about...I hate hearing my own voice also [chuckles], but I encourage the listeners to tune in and listen. But what am I looking forward to as we reboot the show? Well, number one, of course, it's all about the listeners, so I'm super excited to reconnect with our listeners. Thank you for following us so far, and excited about what we'll bring in the future. Of course, in the fast-paced technology world that we all live in, I'm excited to learn about the latest advancements from our guests, of which it's a changing world, of course, but most importantly, really sharing practical hands-on guidance with our listeners. So hopefully, we're helping our listeners achieve their goals and accelerate their path to success. My hope with the podcast ultimately is that we're providing in that 25 to 35 minutes bite-sized consumable content that is really clear in terms of the delivery but also actionable. My goal is that the conversation doesn't stop with the podcast. That's the beginning of the conversation. So that's what I'm excited about, David. And then so with that, I mean, David, as we look to close things out, is there anything you'd like to share on logistics?DAVID: You bet. Let's talk about how we're going to move forward producing the show. We'll be working to hit a cadence of an episode about every two weeks or so, and to be honest, that's about all either of our schedules can tolerate for getting episodes on air. And beyond that, you can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Audible, Google Podcasts, Podcast Addict, and all those other podcast aggregators and hosts. Also, you can get to us on our homepage easily by going to this URL: aka.ms/azureforexecs. And we post every show there, and you can listen to it through a web page if you choose. And that's our landing page for the show. So I encourage you to head over there, where you'll be able to see show notes and be able to subscribe to the show in various ways. Just click the Listen & Subscribe button. So speaking of show notes, I want to add for this episode, we're going to obviously include links to some of the things we've talked about and also to Paul's social accounts and to my socials as well. And I'll tell you, you know, even though I'll probably post a Twitter account, I stepped away from that lately [laughs]. I don't know why. I really like it when people hit me up though on LinkedIn and talk about the show, give me some feedback, tell us what you'd like to hear in future episodes. So hit me up on LinkedIn, and my LinkedIn profile will be in the show notes. So really looking forward to moving forward and to hearing from you as we reboot the show and have a different path forward.PAUL: That's awesome. So not only are we rebooting the show, David, I hear we need to get more social. So be on the lookout for us dialing back up and being more social on LinkedIn and our Twitter accounts. So with that, let's stop the introductions and get on with the first show in the new format. Thank you so much to our listeners who have stuck with us over the years, and welcome hopefully to new listeners. It's great to have you here. We're delighted you're all joining us, too, for the Azure for Executives Podcast. And with that, on with the show.DAVID: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Azure for Executives Podcast. We love hearing from you. And if you have suggestions for topics, questions about issues discussed on the show, or other feedback, contact the show host, David Starr or Paul Maher, through the social media links included in the show notes for each episode. We look forward to hearing from you.

Danny Zuker is a TV Writer and Producer known for Modern Family, Just Shoot Me, Off Centre, and Grace Under Fire.Show NotesDanny Zuker on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0958521/Danny Zuker on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_ZukerDanny Zuker on Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/dannyzukerDanny Zuker on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannyzuker/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TranscriptsDanny Zuker (00:00):So like, the people interested on the podcast who are aspiring and whatnot. Yeah. I mean, it is, and you can attest to this, and everybody I know can attest to it. Is he getting punched in the face contest? I mean, and there's no shame in stopping. It's just how many times he can get punched in the face. Because you will continually, I mean, I recently been punched, you know, I did a pilot and it was like all the way and boom, punched in the face and it's like, it never stops hurting. And at some point you just decide not to get up. I'm just not there yet.Michael Jamin (00:26):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.(00:34):Hey everybody, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin. I got a special, very special guest today, Mr. Danny Zucker. You don't know who he is. You don't know who. I barely, we worked together on many for many years on a show called Just Shoot Me. But I want to, man, I want to, this guy is, you don't understand this guy in the industry. He's known as a joke machine. He is known as the guy who comes in and hits that home run joke that makes everyone just laugh out loud in every episode. And so, let me just talk about his credits and I'm gonna bring him in. He's got a ton of credits. So I guess we'll talk about this, but we, I guess he started out on the Arsenio Hall Show as a joke writer, evening Shade, which I didn't, I forgot about that cuz I was a PA on that show. But not when he was there. Roseanne, listen to his credits. Roseanne Grace Under Fire fired up. He probably, do you want, is it okay if I mention No, I guess I shouldn't mentionDanny Zuker (01:26):That one. No, you can totally mention all the terribleMichael Jamin (01:28):Ones. jhu Me. We were, we, we worked together. Jesse Off Center, which he created Coupling the Men's Room, another show he created Surviving Suburbia, the Unusuals modern Family, which you've just got off of. So he was there for many seasons. But then also God the Devil and Bob Norm watching Ellie Oliver Bean come to Papa Stacked. I mean, dudeDanny Zuker (01:54):Act I'm glad you finished on Stacked ByMichael Jamin (01:56):Though. Yeah, that was a, yeah, . But what a man, dude, you have some, you have some you in in this podcast right now, I would say you have the second best credits.Danny Zuker (02:07):Who have you had who've hadMichael Jamin (02:09):? No, I'm talking about me. Oh, no, your, your, your credits are fantastic, dude. I mean, aDanny Zuker (02:14):Lot.Michael Jamin (02:15):Oh,Danny Zuker (02:16):But great memoir in me when I want to get out of the business.Michael Jamin (02:19):Oh, but also you do, well, you, well, you can start writing it now, I suppose. . How dare you. How dare. But also can I even talk about this? Do you have a famous book about where you, you and Trump? You got into a this is before he was president, right?Danny Zuker (02:34):Yeah, it was, it was I think 2014 back when everybody hated Trump. Not just people who could readMichael Jamin (02:41):, but, and so you just started trolling him on TwitterDanny Zuker (02:44):Just randomly and just a little, like, just a small little tweet. It was like, and then he exploded and then we went onto a month long with hundreds of tweets back and forth. And if you go back and look at it, cause it went rebal when he got the nomination. But if you look at it, he didn't like I was just a beta test. There's nothing he said about anybody else, whether it's like whoever he wants to talk about that he didn't first try out on me to no effectMichael Jamin (03:08):Really.Danny Zuker (03:09):And always bugged me when the Democrats would say like well it's so hard to fight against. It's like, no, just read what I did. It's not that hard. I feel like anybody could dunk on him.Michael Jamin (03:18):I remembered thinking though you, that he picked the wrong fight. You don't pick a, a Battle of Witch with professional comedy writer. That's not what you want to do,Danny Zuker (03:25):. It's all I do. It's, yeah, it's like, it's like me getting into a Dunking contest with LeBron. It's not gonna work out. I have one skill period. I can't do anything other than this. It's all I was trained to do.Michael Jamin (03:36):And this was at Modern Family where you were a writer, and did you, did you wanna, did you bounce off any jokes off of anybody?Danny Zuker (03:42):No, in fact, I mean, I would, he started to go after Modern Family, like when he would, you know, and that became like something he would pick out at that point that when he started doing that, I went and I talked to the cast and the other writers and the cre co-creator Steve and Chris, and I said, Hey, like, you know, my show, I would just go forward, but it's your show, right? And they were like, no, get him. It's like, fine. And it was like, I have to say, like back then, you just have to remember like, he was a, he was such a safe target. Like I would have to scroll for scroll and scroll and scroll to find one tweet that supported him. Like one reply that supported him. And I'm sure it came from somebody in his office. What was weird and why I knew like, oh, shit's different is it went viral again in like 20 16, 20 17.(04:31):At which point I got a lot of like, you are an asshole. Y O U R. I got like, it was like, there was a lot of hate. Like people were on his side all of a sudden. It was like, what? Because it was Republicans, he was a joke. Right. You know? Right. and, and so it was like, whoa. It was really weird. And it was yeah, I mean it was, you know, I, I continued, I continued to be a voice, but, you know, I I, I had threats. I was hacked. I had a lot of stuff go down that was like sort of yeah, it was like, it, you know, it, it got a little bit scary. I mean, it's scarier for women who went up againstMichael Jamin (05:05):Him. But at, at some point though, did he just block you?Danny Zuker (05:08):Oh, within the middle of that. And then by the end, after months, he blocked me and I stayed blocked all through his presidency. .Michael Jamin (05:15):And then how did that become a book?Danny Zuker (05:17):Well, I was doing it like at the 20, what was it? The the midterms, the 2018 midterms. I was part of like a democratic affiliation. Like there was some fundraiser. And they had asked me if I wanted to do like a live reading of my Twitter war. And like, you know, Tim Simons from a VE was there and he said he had an un enviable job of being Trump. And we did it. And then another friend of mine who does a lot of this stuff says we should put that out as a book. And, and then we just, I just wound up doing it.Michael Jamin (05:47):That's fantastic.Danny Zuker (05:48):Yeah. I mean, it's just a little, it's a hundred pages. It's like, it could not be sort of, and and, and I comment on the little tweets as they go along and Yeah. So . But and then I gave it to ch Yeah. And then I gave it to charities like, you know, Uhhuh legal aid for people at the border and Planned Parent, like all the things he, ohMichael Jamin (06:04):Good. Oh, now tell me. So I don't, I remember, it's so funny cause we worked together 20 something yearsDanny Zuker (06:10):Ago. I know a lot,Michael Jamin (06:12):But I, you remember, just so my audience knows, you were the guy who all of us wanted to impress in the room to make laugh. You were the guy cuz it was your approval. Yeah, it was. Because if we could make Danny laugh then Paul Yeah. Because you were the home run hitter.Danny Zuker (06:29):But that, but that room had, I felt like that room had a lot of heavy hitters. It's very flattering to know that. I mean, I always thought, you know, I thought you and your partner Siever were like, it was just, everybody was good.Michael Jamin (06:40):We were, we were all baby writers. But it, I mean there were definitely, it was a really talented, I think that might have been one of the most talented rooms I've been in, to be honest.Danny Zuker (06:47):It was certainly one of the, it was one of those rooms where like, cuz Just Shoot Me was a show that really survived on jokes. Like, it was like, the way it was built, it was like, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't about like a lot of touchy-feely moments, you know, or we'd get to them occasionally. But it, what it was most successful at was like, you know, what are the s in that world? Yeah. And, and, and so, and we had a lot, you know, it was a lot of really good people. So,Michael Jamin (07:11):Man, and then, but you started, I forgot about this as a, as a joke writer on the Arsenio Hall Show.Danny Zuker (07:17):Yeah, it was weird. I mean, I got , I mean, I was quite young. I was like, I think like 24 or 25, and I managed to get like a like a pa job on that show. Cause I'd worked on as a pa on another show with a producer there. And anyway, I got there and, you know, we're doing run through things and it, you know, writers there had 13 week contracts. And in the first 13 weeks that show became an amazing hit. Like he was on the Coming Time magazine and he wound up purging a lot of the staff on a Friday. And I just went home. This, you know, I went home that night and now long ago, and on a typewriter looking at newspapers typed up a bunch of jokes and on Monday handed up, you know, my submission to some of the other writers there to put it in with the packet.(08:03):You know, they, because I knew they were looking and they knew I wanted to write. And on Monday, like he did one of my jokes. And then like on Tuesday he did two of my jokes. And on Thursday I had a good amount of jokes in. And on that Friday, the following Friday, he hired me. Wow. So it was like, but I, you know, I'd been doing jokes, you know, I don't, I wasn't, it's funny, I was like, we were doing a move in our house, like we were remodeling, something had to move out and we get, so go through all of these boxes and in one box I found, oh, my Arsenio jokes, like a big book of my Arsenio jokes. And I thought, this is a gold mine. I can sort of recycle some of these and put them in things. And I started reading through them and they were also shit. It was like, it was nothing salvageable , but I guess it worked for there.Michael Jamin (08:43):That's so, you know, cause I was a joke writer on the mic and Maddie's show for a little bit, and I had thisDanny Zuker (08:48):That's right.Michael Jamin (08:49):But I would go through my material. I, I have the same like a binder like gold. Right. And I looked at it recently, I was, was like, there's nothing in here. It's terrible. It'sDanny Zuker (08:57):Terrible. I would never hire this fucking guy.Michael Jamin (08:59):. But, but was it your goal, like in high school to be like a on to work, like late night or what? Or scripted?Danny Zuker (09:07):Yeah, it was. I mean, I really, you know, I wanted, I, I mean I, in high school I was doing some standup poorly, you know, cause I had nothing to say and, but I really did. I wanted to be on Letterman or snl. And and, you know, I got outta college and I did, like, I put together this reel that people seemed to like, and I got into Letterman it as like, you know, I talked to like Gerard Mulligan and a couple people there, and I mission and then, and I got my first rejection letter from them and the second one from snl. And and and I still have those. And they're, they, they, they're, because, you know, you go through that. I wound up getting a job with but glad up getting a job with Howard Stern, who was doing some box pilots.(09:44):He was gonna be the show that followed Joan Rivers Show. Right. And they never went, but it was, it was a couple months producing a week of shows, you know, practice shows. And well, a couple good things came outta that one. I've been friends with him for 30 something years as a result. Bob who was in my wedding, and right. But then, but then I also met a producer on that show who liked me, and he brought me out to, you know, he brought me out. He said, I have a a pa job out here if you want it. And, you know, so it all led from that. So,Michael Jamin (10:12):But you never decided to like resubmit to SNL orDanny Zuker (10:16):Letterman? I did. I mean, I was, you know, I was absolutely planning, but then I wound up getting an opportunity to be, you know, I, I got, I, I I wanted to. And then I came out here. It's funny because before I got the Arsenio Hall ugh, this is a really dark, like, horrible story. Before I got the Arsenio Hall show , I got I was like up for like, to be a baby writer. If you remember Pat Sack had a late night talk show mm-hmm. . Yeah. That was Pat s Show. And was a lot of my friends, a lot of good people were there. Like, you know, Fred Wolf who went on to write a lot of stuff for all those movies for David Spade and Chris Farley. But like, so I was submitting packages and the head writer there, this guy Monty, I don't mind trashing him on this.(10:52):He, he he put me through the ringer. Like I kept submitting like over the course of you know, weeks of submitting to him and with notes. And I was like, fine. I was like young and prolific. Anyway, I wind up going in and I get there and there's another guy, there's writer Rob Young, who went on to write Forleo for many, many years. And he and Mon said, here's the thing, you're both baby writers, so if you don't mind, I'll make you a baby writer team. You know, you'll means splitting a salary and all that and you have to be okay with it. And we're like, I was broke and had gotten no credit card. We were like, yeah, let's do it. My family was in town, my mom and my two sisters and and my stepdad and we're like all getting ready to go out and celebrate.(11:34):And as I'm getting out the door, the phone rings and it's Monty. And he said, you know what? We've re he gave me a key to the office, by the way. We've reconsidered. We're just gonna go with Rob. Oh my God. Like, after offering me the job. And I literally like my knees buckle and it was like the darkest meal ever. So I was really depressed for exactly 12 hours. And the next day Marla, this woman who went up to Bruce, the Arsenio Hall show called me and said, I can't offer you a writing job yet, but if you want, you can come in here and be like, like a, like a segment pa. And I was like, yes. And so that's all I wanted was the opportunity. So it was like literally I had disappointment for 12 hours andMichael Jamin (12:14):But still that is crippling that disappointment.Danny Zuker (12:16):It was crippling. I've never forgottenMichael Jamin (12:18):The Yeah. I feel it just the way you saidDanny Zuker (12:21):It, it was really cruel. I mean, it was like I described, I mean, to like the people interested on the podcast who are aspiring and whatnot. I mean, it is, and you can attest to this, and everybody I know can attest to, is he getting punched in the face contest? I mean, and there's no shame in stopping. It's just how many times he can get punched in the face. Because you will continually, I mean, I've recently been punched, you know, I did a pilot and it's like all the way going and boom, punched in the face and it's like, it never stops hurting. And at some point we just decide not to get up. I'm just not there yet, but, you know. Right. But butMichael Jamin (12:53):People don't, yeah. I think that's important to know. Like even us at our level, is none of it's a cake walk. Everything's, you know, a lot of rejection.Danny Zuker (13:03):It, it's true. And I'll never forget this cuz so there's a writer under studio Hall show. He's about like eight or nine years older than I was. And, and like we would pretty young staff and, but, and we were going like, all the way to Vegas, why did you ever come to Vegas with us? And he's like, you know, and he pulled me aside, he took me for a lunch. He goes, he said, you, you're good. You don't wanna stay here in late night the whole, your whole career. You should, like, I'm taking the time. A friend of mine is doing a pilot. I'm helping him with it, and I'm pu you know, and I think you should be thinking about like starting to speck out half hour. And I thought, okay, you know, he's very avan Well, that pilot he was working on was, and his friend was Larry David, who was working on the Seinfeld pilot. He was Larry Charles. Right. and, and, and, and, you know, so he, you know, it was a real inspirational thing that moved me forward. And years later when I'm first getting like my first like, you know, I'm a story editor on like evening shade or one of those things. And I remember running, talking to him and I said, it must be nice to not worry about the next thing. And he is like, oh, I worry every single day. AndMichael Jamin (14:01):This is who, who? Larry Charles said thisDanny Zuker (14:02):Larry. Charles, yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And I thought, like, I thought, is he just saying that to make me feel good? But then, you know, as I saw it, I saw like the people from friends leaving the hottest show on friends, like not, you know, scr you, it, it doesn't carry over. It's like you, you, you get in the door more. Right. But you're still subject to the same humiliations most of the time.Michael Jamin (14:24):Why did they tell you, why did he tell you you don't want to be in late night for the rest of your career?Danny Zuker (14:29):He thought that I want, he said, if you, he, he more said it this way. He said, do you want to be in late night? Do you have aspirations to do more? Because it can be a golden, you can, it can be like a golden handcuffs because what can happen is it becomes comfortable and you won't do anything else if you wanna do something else. And he thought, and he, and he said he thought I was good enough to, he thought I had the ability to go do something else. I, and and that was all it was. It wasn't like he was belittling it mm-hmm. , he just knew I had aspirations beyond it. And he said, while you are working on something good is a great time to be working on the next thing. Right. And I, I, I, I took, I I, I took him seriously. IMichael Jamin (15:06):Mean, but you had to learn a whole different thing. You had to learn how to write stories. That's aDanny Zuker (15:09):Whole different thing. You don't, and but didn't you find this for you? So you started as a joke writer. You don't know if you can do it consistently until you do it. And then you find out, oh, I can. Right. It's the same thing with half hour. It's like, I don't know if I can do this consistently until you find out you can.Michael Jamin (15:22):But I remember the first couple specs I wrote the first were terrible. Then I wrote a couple that were decent. And then after wrote that first decent one that got me an agent. I remember the, I got soundbite agent and then I remember thinking, I, I don't know if I can do this again. I think that's it. I think I got lucky.Danny Zuker (15:37):Oh dude, I'm utter, even to this day, I have to tell you, like I've, I, I'm utterly convinced that every job I have is the last job I'll ever have for my whole career. And that this is the script where I'll be found out.Michael Jamin (15:53):. Yeah. Yeah.Danny Zuker (15:55):Where the, where the big, where the, you know, it's it's imposter syndrome I think. But it, I don't know. I, I've never met somebody who turned into script and was so freaking proud of it to me or something like that. It's like, oh, this one's gonna kill where that was any good . You know? Right. Like, that kind of confidence doesn't means you haven't like, questionedMichael Jamin (16:11):It. And what were those early days like for you on those early shows like Roseanne and like, what was that like?Danny Zuker (16:17):I loved it. I mean, cuz I, I did discover I was good at it and they were like, it was competitive, which I liked mm-hmm. . And it was like, you know, I held my own. I was like, you know, I did a really good, I felt like I did a really good job on Evening Shane. And they recommended me to Right. Roseanne. And I was a good hire there. And I'm, you know, the Roseanne was one of these situations where like 30 something writers, cuz she would hire all these people. But there was one like, main room and, and, and, or like, like two, you know, of the main writers. And it was very egalitarian, you know, it wasn't just like, okay, you're co-executive producer, you're gonna be in that main room. Or the, it was egalitarian. And, you know, I had worked, you know, as a second job. I worked myself into the main room. Now keep in mind that also meant working on weekends, but it was still,Michael Jamin (17:00):What do you mean as a second job? What do you mean?Danny Zuker (17:03):Well, no, it wasn't a second job. It was like I said that you would, I, it meant that if I got into the main room, Uhhuh , I would, you know, I would work longer for the same about someone here. Oh, oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah.Michael Jamin (17:16):Yeah. Right. And and they were, yeah. Cause the hours were really tough on Roseanne. I rememberDanny Zuker (17:20):They were hard. No.Michael Jamin (17:21):Yeah. I remember getting, it's funny, I remember getting interviewed to be in the night pa on Roseanne. I was like, the night pa Yeah. You start around midnight. I'm like, oh, start at midnight. . That doesn't sound like a good job.Danny Zuker (17:35):Yeah. I remember, I think at one 30 in the morning, Rob hen at one point saying, guys, if we just let's focus, we can get out here earlyMichael Jamin (17:42):. But he wasn't. So what time, what were your hours? Like what time did you usually work until ?Danny Zuker (17:50):It depended, but like, you know, cause she would blow up the script several times and you had to deliver it. Yeah. And you know, sometimes we'd have to start from scratch. And so, you know, we saw more than, you know, I saw several sunrises. We called it working from Howard to Howard. Like, you'd come in listening to Howard's Stern and you go home listening to Howard's.Michael Jamin (18:04):Oh my God. And that's, and that's rough. I mean, I've been at a coupleDanny Zuker (18:08):Young though. It, it helped to be young.Michael Jamin (18:10):Right. I know. Imagine doing that now. You'd be, I don't know guys, it's getting, it's, it's right five-ish. It's getting dark . I go, nowDanny Zuker (18:18):I wanna eat my dinner at four 30 now. So it's like differentMichael Jamin (18:21):. So then all your other jobs afterwards. Just interesting to follow. How were they just mostly connections or your agents submitting you? How haveDanny Zuker (18:29):Almost all were con like, so what happened was, so yeah, so Evening Shade led to a connection because Victor Fresco was friends with Rob Yuen. Mm-Hmm. and then Tim Doyle who was coming in also. And, and, and so I got there from there. When I went to Grace Under Fire, it was Kevin Abbott. It was like a, a a splinter group. Us went on to that. From there Kevin wound up getting like a brillstein deal off of that. And then they were like, he, they were asking who else is good over there? And he recommended me. So then I got a Brillstein deal and did my first pilot. And when that didn't go, I was like on, I was somewhere like on vacation, you know, my wife. And, and I got a call from my agent that about like, Hey, they're looking to bring somebody on the show, just shoot me. And you know, you know, I read the script, which I liked. I, you know, I hadn't seen the first pilot and I was wrapping up and so I, I don't how many You were there from the beginningMichael Jamin (19:23):Right? From the pilot. Yeah.Danny Zuker (19:24):Yeah. So what was how many did you do that first season? Because I came in in, in at the le Yeah. So I came in on episode six of thatMichael Jamin (19:32):First season. You were there, you were there for the first episode. Final episode of Season of Season One. I don't rememberDanny Zuker (19:37):That. Yes, I was, yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Cause we were, yeah. Cause I, yeah. And so yeah. So it was yeah. So that, and that's how that led. And then from there, you know, that led to a lot of different things. And, and you know, you know, it is, you start to develop a name, so then you at least Right, you can at least get in the door, you know, a little bit. So,Michael Jamin (19:56):And then, but even now, okay, so how does it work for you now? What is it? I mean, even like, I know you just, you just had a pilot what it felt like. What was that process like?Danny Zuker (20:05):Well, it's, it's, you know, it's, hopefully it's gonna be alive again. But we, we gotten into some, some, a little good news, but, you know, I was talking about a couple pilots, but like, I, you know, I got, I having the same manager as I'm at Brillstein again as a management company. And over Covid, they were like, Hey, you know, you wanna sit down with Kevin Neon as this idea?Michael Jamin (20:25):Oh, right.Danny Zuker (20:26):Kevin and I wound up writing something that I really love. And hereMichael Jamin (20:29):We go. Let's give him, give him a shout out.Danny Zuker (20:32):Oh, you gotMichael Jamin (20:33):It. Yeah, because Kevin was a Kevin, Kevin's so sweet. He was the voice on, he was actually the voice on this animated show. He did. He's over there andDanny Zuker (20:41):Oh really? Which one?Michael Jamin (20:43):Glen Martin dds. So I work with Kevin. Oh,Danny Zuker (20:45):That's right. IMichael Jamin (20:46):Remember that. And he's, so, he's the sweetest guy. And so he'sDanny Zuker (20:51):Been, he's been a pleasure to be in my life. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it was a real blessing.Michael Jamin (20:56):Well, I was just gonna say, so when he put his book out, I was like, yeah, I gotta give, I gotta help promote his book. Cuz he's just the sweetest guy, youDanny Zuker (21:02):Know? Yeah, he is, he's the greatest. And, but, you know, there's a perfect example. So it's Kevin Neen who has always acclaim. I don't have no acclaim. And, and like we write a pilot That's great. And we still get fucked around with, you know, it's like, sort of what I was saying, you know, it's like there's no, it never endsMichael Jamin (21:18):. Yeah, no, it doesn't end. And so, yeah. So that, so just so people understand those work, so the, you've sold it to, well, your, your studio paid, youDanny Zuker (21:27):Don't just We the studio. Yeah. And it was like, developed for tbs. Okay. And and then the whole TBS structure went out the window mm-hmm. like in, in the midst of doing it. And, and we just got screwed. Now it came back to us and knock wood, we have something. But, you know, and then, you know, I'm just developing other things right now.Michael Jamin (21:46):Yeah. So you'll try to shop that. Right. And so,Danny Zuker (21:48):Yeah. Yeah. I mean this is the, this is the first year though when I, because I've been working on this animated show, housebroken mm-hmm. , it's their second season. It's on Fox. My first animated show I've everMichael Jamin (21:57):Oh, I know that. Oh, wait, wait, I know that one.Danny Zuker (22:00):It's with, yeah, it's with Gabby Al Gabby and Jen Friton did, and Ku it's like bunch of pets and group therapy. Right. Which is really a funny idea. Right. And it was super fun to do when it ended, like, in, in, I don't know, September, I mean, we're still doing post-production, but when it ended in September, I had a couple offers to staff or thinking like this. And I just, I said I, unless it was something I really wanted to do, this was the first time I decided not to do that. Not to run really in my whole career because I, I felt like I don't want to do that right now. I'm tired of racing and I wanted to, and I got to travel and I wanted to do certain things and work on what I wanted to work on. Right. It just sort of have faith in the process. Cause cause you know how it is, you miss a lot of life if you don't do that. SoMichael Jamin (22:45):Yeah, well it's, there's that, yeah. It's like that trade off. Do you go on staff or, or try to develop on your own and you're justDanny Zuker (22:51):Yeah. And I'll go, but I also, it's just a trade off of like, if I don't go on staff now and I wanna go on staff later, I'll find something. You know, it's like, I'm not gonna just not do it in there, you know? Right. So,Michael Jamin (23:03):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.(23:27):Right. So now you're just coming up with ideas or teaming up with other people.Danny Zuker (23:31):Yeah, I'm, I'm actually supervising a couple pilots that I like and I'm writing one, you know, developing one on my own. And then, and, and, you know, it's been super fun and, you know, I'll start submitting again when, you know, shows get picked up. But it was fun. I got to go around the worldMichael Jamin (23:45):Interest Oh, go around the world for for what? Oh, oh, because you're on yourself. You, youDanny Zuker (23:49):Just Yeah, my, yeah, yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin (23:51):Right. Interesting. And then, and so what was go, so your last, I guess your last big credit was Modern Family. So what was that a called, what was that like?Danny Zuker (24:00):Wow, I mean, what a credit. Oh, here's the thing. So I'm 44 when that show gets, you know, picked up and, you know mm-hmm. , especially like in comedy. Right. You know, you think like, I went prior, so it's kind of funny. So prior to modern Family, you know, a year before that happened, a full year, you know, we had a writer's strike. And right before that, Steve Leviton, who we know from Just Shoot me and, and Chris Le Lloyd were doing a show with Kelsey Grammar and Patricia Heaton called back to Back to You. Back to You. Yeah. Yeah. And and, and I didn't get hired for it, and I was like, really? I've done everything for, and it would've meant like I could've logged my deal and, and then the writer strike happened. It was the first time I went a year, like basically almost a year without working on anything.(24:49):Right. And so I started to spec out a couple, I specked out a pilot that was a little bit more dramatic and wound up getting hired on a drama that Noah Hawley was doing in New York called The Unusuals. And it was like, and it was really fun to do a drama and easier by a mile. Right. And so BEC but and it was like, I was the funny guy in this, like, people, other writers would come to me if they need because it had, shouldn't have had a rye aspect to it and this cop drama. And so I could punch up and I was able to write a drama a script. And it was great. And that show didn't get picked up. But then I had a couple offers on other dramas when Steve called me and said, Hey, Chris and I have done this pilot.(25:27):I think you should come in and take a look at it. You might be interested in it. Now in my head I'm thinking, I can't wait to watch this pilot and say, no, I don't wanna do it. Right. , it's like hired other stuff. But I got five minutes into the Modern Family Pilot. And honestly, to me, it's the best comedy pilot I'd ever seen. Yeah. Like, for just like, it, it felt so fully formed already. Yeah. Like, but that cast, and it just like, everything clicked in a way that was magical. And I was like, I gotta get hired on this show. And so people asking, you know, it was gonna be a hit or did you know this? We had, there was a lot of pressure that first season to do something as good as the pilot and to be in that world. And, but we could feel it. We, you could, you know, you could feel something building like you could feel, yeah, this is something special. And and yeah, it was an amazing ride and I'm sort of glad to have that happen to me in my forties. It was particularly after a year of sort of, oh, slightly slimmer picking. So I really appreciated it and I knew it won't, I, I knew this doesn't go on forever. Like I know that that's a very unusual Yeah. And rarefied thing to happen.Michael Jamin (26:35):It's kind of like the last big, big hit, youDanny Zuker (26:38):Know? It feels like it, I mean, it, it, it's especially a broadcast hit. It's like Yeah. It just like, like it, it went from the beginnings of like, screaming is a possibility to like, no one watches network television at the time it's on anymore.Michael Jamin (26:53):Right. What's interesting about, I, I always love like writing in that show is like you've literally watched those children grow up to be adults, you know, on theDanny Zuker (27:03):Air same age. So Luke, the kid who played Luke and the kid who played Manny and Alex for that matter, Uhhuh were all the same age as my twin girls. And my son was younger. So I, I, I used to joke that I, I got to watch the kids who make me money grow up with the kids who cost my moneyMichael Jamin (27:19):, but, and how odd is it to write new stories? Like, it just seems like it's, you know, it's almost odd that because they're older now and you get, you're writing stories for them being older, you know?Danny Zuker (27:29):Yeah. But it's like you, that is actually, oh, for me, I did not mind that because I felt like in those first couple seasons it was very, you know, we in all purged our lives for like stories. Right. And so I was just waiting for my kids to grow up and do something more interesting.Michael Jamin (27:48):Right,Danny Zuker (27:48):Right. You know, you know, and I think, and, and I think a lot of us were, and so I didn't mind that you were moving into those, those stories. I mean, it gets hard though. I mean, you know, we joked like, you know, everybody's like, oh, you know, it wasn't as good in season eight or whatever. It's like, well, let me put it this way. It's like the most interesting family, you know, most like the Obama's, let's say when they're at a dinner party, they have at most 15 to 20 stories they tell me. Yeah, yeah. That's it. Tho those are their go and they're the most interesting family, you know, like, we did 250 episodes, or each family had like, it's hard, you know, you, you, it's, it's, it's different. And we're not like animated, so they have to be somewhat ground. It's all you can do like meta episodes, like you can do like on The Simpsons or things like that. Although I wish we could have , butMichael Jamin (28:34):But I, and I always, cause I always talk about like how writer's mind their own life for stories. But you have a famous, you famously took a story from your life, I think, right? And you said in one of the, at least one of the episodes was the, it was the fire. It was the fire. I'm thinking of the firemen.Danny Zuker (28:47):Yeah. I didn't write it, but I, I told it in the room. I had had a okay. So yeah, it was like the, the, I live in Manhattan Beach and the the e EMT workers there are like famously good looking dudes. Like I Right. Some, I, it makes me question where I am on the sexuality spectrum.Michael Jamin (29:06):.Danny Zuker (29:07):Anyway, I wound up having an attack, which I thought was a kidney stone. It turned out to be gallbladder. It was like, but at two in the morning and I wake up and I feel like I'm being stabbed to death. Right. And my, my wife Annette. Annette, you gotta call nine one one. You gotta call 9 1 1. It's like, she was like, okay, it's gonna be fine. She calls 9 1 1 and then I'm on the floor and I don't see her, when I hear the, the firemen like knocking on the door like, Annette, Annette, where are you? And then she comes out of her closet and she's dolled up like she, cause it was the middle of the night she put on, she's looking you up for the fire bitch. And we just did that word for there.Michael Jamin (29:40):Right. So you go in to, and you tell the story the next day in the writer's room, and then it goes right in the script.Danny Zuker (29:45):It's amazing. And it's amazing cause you start to lose any shame. So like, one of the things like I'd worked, I had known Brad Walsh who was part partnered with Corgan and Walsh. Right. I'd known him for many, many years before this. Worked on a show with him, a couple shows with him and never, and, but we get into that first season of Modern Family and we're like looking for stories. And he is like, and I see him struggling and he is like, okay, fine. My sister and I were part of an ice dancing team. . Like, it's something he wouldn't tell us ever except we needed it.Michael Jamin (30:16):He, you needed stories, right? Oh, you give, yeah.Danny Zuker (30:19):Yeah.Michael Jamin (30:19):You'll give your mother. I mean, people don't realize, like you're, it's late at night, you're trying to come up a story and like you do, you'll swab someone's arm for a story. You know, like a good story is so hard to get.Danny Zuker (30:31):Now I've only like, like there's a time on like, it was actually just shoot me, I think it was. But like, we're looking for a story on some kind. And it was the only time I'm tell it here, but it was like that my wife at the time, she, she actually said I would rather you didn't do this cuz they, they want, they'll watch her. But it was, it was, it was this very simple story. It was like, like I used to fly my in-laws out here before they moved out here to come see the grandkids. I was like, you know, of course you're gonna come over there and say I'd fly and I do this back and forth. Happy to do it. I'm a generous guy. It likes been good. But then I found out like they'd get the ticket and then at the airport would pay for the upgrade to first class . And it like, sort of like, wait a minute, . And it shouldn't have bothered me, but it didMichael Jamin (31:13):Wait. But, but they were paying it out, the upgrade outta of pocket. They were paying for the upgrade.Danny Zuker (31:18):They were paying for the upgrade. But it was like, I guess you pay for the upgrade. You like what? Like,Michael Jamin (31:23):Oh, if they can pay for that, when they could pay for the ticket, you're saying? Yes, I got,Danny Zuker (31:25):Well not even, but but of course that's me. That was not like, and even as when I was pitching the story, I said, this is gonna be my problem not thereMichael Jamin (31:33):.Danny Zuker (31:34):But I said, so I, so I, I put the ki on, I, I stopped, but that's about the only time I have I all embarrassed people in our lives, you know?Michael Jamin (31:43):And, but, and so yeah, I mean, so, but, but basically there, so there are other stories in Modern Family you took from your, from your life as well, basically?Danny Zuker (31:49):Oh, tons. All of us did. Yeah. We, we, we, we, we had one like five twin daughters and at one point, like, so we had to go to a we had to go to a parent teacher conference when they were like in, I don't know, second grade. And my daughter, it's Lily and Charlie, my daughter Charlie, I mean Charlie, my daughter Charlie, you know, we're sitting there and it's and and then I say, Hey, so your dad and I, you know, tonight your dad and I are gonna need to split up. And and it's like, so do you, is there, do you have a preference? And it's like, and she just thought about it for a second. She goes, well I love dad, but I think you'll take better care of me. And she thought like we were, and she was so calm about us splitting up. Like she just like, yeah, I get like obviously that's . So she was like, it was just such a weird, and so we had Luke basically do that with Claire and and Phil.Michael Jamin (32:47):So yeah. Wow. That's so, yeah. You just got, it's like you're just gonna be conscious for your life. But go, but go ahead. WhatDanny Zuker (32:52):You were gonna say? No, we had a lot. I mean, Steve's kids walked in on him having sex in the pilot when Luke, they do the thing, we're gonna shoot you Luke. Right. That is the deal. If you shoot your sister, he has actual footage of him doing that to his son. .Michael Jamin (33:07):Yeah. That I remember thinking that this, I remember watching the pilot thinking this had to be from his life. And it doesn't sound right. . He shouldn't have done that.Danny Zuker (33:15):Yes, exactly. Yeah.Michael Jamin (33:17):Now, when you go about creating a pilot, other than the Kevin Neon thing, which is, you know, a little different cuz he has this like how do you go about, how do you start thinking about ideas?Danny Zuker (33:26):It's, it's a variety of ways. Like there's some that are just like, oh, this is an idea that's been sort of itching that, that I've been itching to do. I mean, and in the day, you know, I would think like, you know, but there's just an idea that I'll get in your head. The other way is somebody comes to you with an idea or a piece of casting. I have one right now that was kind of a, I'm not gonna talk about it here, but it was like, right. But it's, it's cause I'm, I'm, I'm down the road. But it, it was so wild idea that came to me with like, some good casting associated, but it was just one line and it's broad and silly. And I was like, how am I gonna make that work? Right. And they actually went away and on a trip and, and somebody just clicked how I would do it. And so I'm, you know, I've written up treatment and so hopefully that thing goes, but it's, sometimes it's an actor. Sometimes you read an article.Michael Jamin (34:13):Do you, are you, do you develop sometimes with actors? Cuz we never, we develop for comedians but never actors really.Danny Zuker (34:19):It depends. I have developed for an actor why They're usually a comic actor though. Yeah. You know? But yeah, that's, that's about it. Yeah. I have, I mean, I know where do you guys get your, what do you do with your ideas? I mean, and don't they mostly come from your heads? Are you talking about it or it's such a hard target to chase?Michael Jamin (34:37):Is this a hard part of it that we struggle with? Cuz you always hear this as like, why are you the only ones who can tell this story? And you're like, well I'm, we're not. You know, I mean, and, and the other thing is like, well I'm a writer, I can kind of make up stuff. Like, so they, but they always want to hear like, why is so you have to always, it always has to be personal, which is a little hard. It's like you run out of the personal things. And so yeah.Danny Zuker (35:02):It sound like an obvious, this is gonna sound like a question, and maybe this just speaks to me not being a good guy, but I, I know this, but don't you lieMichael Jamin (35:10):. But you, you, you exaggerate, you, you basically say, you know, you try to extrapolate, well this is, I this didn't happen to you, but something similar happened to me, you know,Danny Zuker (35:20):But I'll be like, okay, so this is based on a guy I went to school with.Michael Jamin (35:23):Right. But is that good enough? Because then they'll, but then they'll say, okay, but then go get the guy who you went to school with. Hey, get him in here. It's his story.Danny Zuker (35:32):. No, no. I mean, I, I no, what I will say, this is my real, real, you know, I'll, I don't know. I can, first of all, I do think when you're writing a show, no matter what you're putting yourself right in all of those characters, I think it's a silly request. I do try, even if it was like something science fiction or it was something like broad and big, I will always try to craft an origin story that is usually mostly true. But just like, you know, I had this experience, like how do I explain like I'm doing something with somebody right now, an animated show that I'm supervising that has a lot to do with mental health stuff. Right. And this girl cracked it. And it was like, so when I'm coming in I say like, I've tried to do mental health issues for a long time. Never found the key. I think she did. This is like, and, and so that's my, that's my part of the sales pitch in this. AndMichael Jamin (36:20):It's so interesting cuz we don't even supervise. It's not, it's not that I'm opposed to it, but there's not a lot of money to supervise something. And you wind up doing a lot of the work. So,Danny Zuker (36:33):Well, I'm very careful with what I pick in the supervision. Mm-Hmm. . And I'm also very careful what my, you know, rate will be. So I, for me it was like, oh, okay. I, but, but, but it's like, no, but it's like I'll take, I, I, you know, somewhere along the way it's gonna be a gamble, but I wanna be with somebody who I know is gonna, and I'm very explicit about that. I always say like, if I'm going to wind up co-writing this, we are going to be back here to renegotiate because my deal is very specifically not for scripts. And OhMichael Jamin (37:00):Really? Okay.Danny Zuker (37:01):Yeah. And I'm, and I'm pretty clear with that, with my management and stuff like that. Because if I'm gonna do that, then I'm gonna take a piece of it. I normally, I don't, I I don't want to, I wanna help them do it and then I'll run it if it goes right. But I, but I'm just, when I was younger, I had a couple people, I had one person in in particular who's sort of supervising me, who took over something and I feel like Crash landed it before I was ready. And, and I'm so careful not to do that. I'm just there. So I, I really do wanna make it that person show.Michael Jamin (37:33):But the problem is cuz and I, I haven't, we haven't done this, I haven't experienced, but my fear is you'll turn it in the studio will not be happy with it, with their work, with their draft. And then you will have to do all that work. You will have to do all that regretting.Danny Zuker (37:51):Well, I'll have to do some work. Uhhuh . But I'm, I'm picking people I think who's have a pretty good sense of, right. I, I'm betting on certain people. I'm not betting on like somebody who is just like a comic. I'm betting on somebody who is at least writing or has some workMichael Jamin (38:09):To. And so those people, they don't come to you out of the, I should be clear, they probably don't come to you out of the, off the street. They come to you through channels, through agents, managers, stuff like that. Yeah.Danny Zuker (38:17):Or through, or through like pods. They, somebody we're developing this or we, we love this pitch. And that's sort of what happened with this, this animated oneMichael Jamin (38:24):Doing so. Right, right. Interesting. Now have you done a lot of animation? That's something I I didn't know you got the all thatDanny Zuker (38:30):Just this housebroken show. That's the first night I've ever done.Michael Jamin (38:34):It's been very all on Zoom.Danny Zuker (38:36):All on Zoom practically. Yeah. Yeah. All on Zoom. But it was a real blast. Now I kind, I didn't mind it.Michael Jamin (38:43):Right. Well you had to be in your house, get to relax too.Danny Zuker (38:46):It was kind of fu It was. Yeah. I mean, and also just having something like, you know, it was, again, we went into the pandemic, nothing was going on during that. I was just sort of sitting home riding pilots and, and doing stuff. And I was like, oh God, am I done again? Am I done? Then I got a call from mm-hmm. , you know, Gabby and Jen and that production company that if I was interested, I could come there. And it's like, I loved every, you know, I love those guys and it's all these a bunch of really great people over there. It's like basically the whole cast of Veep is isn't that thingMichael Jamin (39:14):? Oh yeah, I know. AndDanny Zuker (39:15):It's a, and and, and it was just like, it's just been a blast, so. Right.Michael Jamin (39:20):Wow. And so, and I also know, I, I noticed you've been, you've been performing a lot too.Danny Zuker (39:25):Yeah, I have. I started doing I started doing standup a little bit. I'm, I took a little break, but I've been going, yeah, I took like a 30 something years break from standup. But it's been fun. Cause like I have stuff to talk about and I don't care what happens. Cause I already have a career. Like there's no stakes in it at all.Michael Jamin (39:41):And you go, I mean, and so you go up, how often do you up?Danny Zuker (39:44):Well, when I was doing it more, I was going up a couple times a week and little clubs, little club shows. I was actually I shortly before the Pandemic was going through a divorce and but I was dating somebody who was a comic and so, and she did a lot of club shows and would put me on. And then we just recently broke up, so now I need another Ed doing club shows. What I wound going though, I wound up going to Edinburgh. A friend of mine who's a comic was doing a show at Edinburgh at French Fest. And I opened for him, like, for four shows. And it was really a blast.Michael Jamin (40:12):It's so interesting. We're talking about doing that. What, what was your experience there? I I would definitely talkDanny Zuker (40:17):About that. Loved it. Yeah. We have to talk. I'm actually thinking about putting something up there myself.Michael Jamin (40:22):Oh. And they gotta talk now. We definitelyDanny Zuker (40:23):Have to talk. Yeah. Yeah. We'll talk afterwards.Michael Jamin (40:26):Wow. Now I wanna, I wanna stop this conversation talk, but, and so, but do you wanna do more? It's so interesting. Like, do you wanna do more performing? BecauseDanny Zuker (40:36):I always like, I love to perform. I don't need to do it as a career. What I find is I just like the process of it. Right. I like the way it makes, like, I had this epiphany when I started getting up on stage, like right before the pandemic, a friend of mine was doing the DC improv and at this point I had like, and was gonna needed a, like a, a feature. And so I was like, she's like, do you have 15, 20 minutes? And at the time, I had five. And she's like, and I had a week to go. It's like, well, I'll figure it out. So I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, you know, just on all the way over, I get it. And I got there and I'd written some stuff and like, there was a joke I had in the act that I thought was, it's gold.(41:16):Like I, I just know the stroke is gonna work as an open. Yeah. And the first night it didn't really work that well. And I, I came back, my first night was a little rocky, but my fir there were two shows a night, two, I mean, so the first show first night was a little rocky, not terrible. It was not like I bombed it, not terrible. So, and but from second show, I started to figure stuff out and it got, got good, except that joke didn't work again. And I was like, well, I don't know, keep going. It'll work tomorrow. Third try still doesn't work. And with that and so forth, Joe, I abandoned it. But what it, what was interesting about it for me was this, I'll write a joke for a script and a table read and it won't go well. And I will be convinced. I don't, I didn't go out to table read, but it's a good joke, right. And it'll work and I'll fight for it. And sometimes it'll get on. And now I'm thinking it should be a very obvious realization to anybody who's not a complete narcissist. But to me it's like maybe, I don't know,Michael Jamin (42:11):. But the thing is, Danny, if I was, if I had to, but if I had to bet, if I had to say who could, what comedy writer do I know could go and put together a standup act in an evening li or you know, in a couple of hours who could write a fricking five or 10 minutes in a couple of hours and kill it would be you. Because it's just, it's just easy. If, you know, if one thing bomb, whatever you can, you'll pitch on it. You get the one that works.Danny Zuker (42:36):I, I, I feel like that's the case for me. And I also think like, you know, you know this, there's like the two kinds of comedy writers. There's the extroverted ones, and then there's the ones who are just like quiet, but like, you know, good on the page and like, you know, really, and, and you know, will pitch. They're assassins when they pitch, but they're not, like, they don't have that perfor, they're not frustrated performers. Right. And and I just, I just really enjoy it. I mean like, and again, I enjoy it wherever it is. Like I enjoy it in a club with 10 people or in a theater with like 200. It's like, for me it's like been, it's been really kind of, it's just about the process. Like I am no goal to, like, I, I'm not looking to get a Netflix hour. Like I don't, none, none of that appeal. None of that happens. I just like doing it. I find that the process of it works a different part of my brain and like my, you know, I, you know, like I said, like in like in the course of a couple years, my marriage ended, my job of 11 years ended and then the world ended and it was like, yeah. So I was like, grasp, you know, so it was like, it was a lifeline.Michael Jamin (43:37):Were you, did that, I mean, did that panic you at all? Did all that, that's a lot to hit at one timeDanny Zuker (43:43):By the ti? Well, no, because by the time the world ended, my, my marriage like was, that was going through nine months and I'd survived the worst of it in Annette and Ireland we're super close. We're like, we're best friends. It's like the best. And then the show ended did, which was a little bit trauma, you know, traumatic and it was going on. But having survived the uncertainty of a show ending and a marriage ending, by the time, like everything shut down, I felt like, I was like, oh, I've been living in chaos for a while. Come on in, I'll show you. You know, it's like, lemme show you around,Michael Jamin (44:11):Let me show you. And that was, and that's kind of what your act is now? I mean, or no,Danny Zuker (44:15):No, no. My, my most of my act. I mean, it depends. I mean, I do a lot of my act about like oh my God, how far have I fallen? Or I talk about, I talk, I talk a lot about, like, I talk about like when a joke doesn't work or something like that. It's like, oh, they, you know, thing doesn't work. The, the Academy of Television Motion pictures and scientists really liked it though. And like, I'll talk about like my, I, I'll, I'll, I'll be falsely humble about that. Right. And also it's, it's been interesting to, to discover, you know, when I go out to a lot of these club shows, I am considerably older than a lot of the comics who are there. But like in my head, it doesn't feel that way to me. But I can tell that that's how I perceive. And that's also been interesting to talk about just being older.Michael Jamin (44:58):Do you think, cuz so many of these comments wanna get into actually sitcom writing, and do you think they look at you and like you're the guy? Oh, there's,Danny Zuker (45:06):There are some who look to me who there you can, but you know, this can't you tell when someone's talking to you and wants an opportunity? Or is just like being cool? I I, I, I can usually tell.Michael Jamin (45:18):Well, but no, but I wonder if, I wonder if, not that they're like sucking up to you, but if they're just in awe of you because of everything you've written. You know,Danny Zuker (45:25):I think they're, I think there are some people, yeah. I mean, I'm sure that they would be impressed with that aspect of it. Uhhuh . I, I, I'm pretty good at putting people at ease though. Cause that makes me uncomfortable. If people start doing that. I mean, I know it's all coming from a good place. I just, right. I, I don't, I don't like it's too much pressure to be vaunted. It's like I will like, cause all I can think of when someone's looking up to me, it's like, I'm gonna so let you down. It's like you have no idea how disappointed you be, reallyMichael Jamin (45:53):See it. It's interesting cuz that whole reinventing, okay, so even in the comedy room, even, I remember, like you were, there were times you'd be on stage in the con there were 10 of us in the writer's room and you're on stage. And so it seems like you are a perfor. You really are a performer, but this is you, this is like a big deal. Reinventing yourself, especially at this age. It's kind of, it's very intimidating, I think, or no for not for you.Danny Zuker (46:16):No, no. I love it. It's, it's, I I am so much more afraid of stagnation and things like that. Uhhuh . And it's, you know, and it, it's, it's interesting because, you know, especially as you get older and in comedy writing, you know, my full career, they were like, you hear like a certain subset of writers as they got into forties talking about ageism, which I'm not saying doesn't exist. Of course it exists. Mm-Hmm. . But what's interesting is some of the voices that were complaining and the loudest about ageism I would see on the show. And then we'd be pitching some, they'd be pitching something and then somebody like younger might say, yeah, that feels like a little famil, you know, familiar. It'd say, Hey, it worked on this, you know, and then they would disregard. It's like, this is what worked on, you know, growing pains.(46:57):It's gonna work here. Right. And I, I really clocked that. And so for me, part of doing standup and hearing, like I say very, like, I'm interested in comedy as an exploration date. And I think writers don't understand that. It's like a lot of people, comedy people don't understand it. It's like, yes, this was really funny and you could be upset that you can't say this word or this word anymore, but you rolled your eyes at the generation that came before you too. Right. Like, remember that. And you have to like, it is constantly changing. You must, the big experiences I've had is like, I can't wait to show my kids when they would get older when starting to get older. This is classic comedy. And to watch when you watch it again for the, there's certain things that hold up, but a lot of it doesn't hold up that well.Michael Jamin (47:41):Yeah. Right. If someone said like, okay, they wanna put you on tour and you tore the whatever, like a, like a, like a road comic, would you do it?Danny Zuker (47:50):I mean, if I, I might, I mean now in the, it's different. I, if you asked me this before, the age of Zoom, Uhhuh , I'd probably say no. Now if I, if I got to that point where, you know, I would wanna be good enough, like I have many opportunities to cut the line given to like, you know, my status. I know people who, like, if I wanted to, I could suck up to somebody in a much bigger club and say, Hey, gimme a couple spots here in a way that younger comics wouldn't. Right. But I, I, I desperately don't want to do that because I wanna be good enough to get that spot, you know, I'll work it out there and when I get there, you know, so, yeah. I don't know. I have a weird ethos about the whole thing. It's probably just the way of me procrastinating doing more, butMichael Jamin (48:34):, that's interest. It's so interesting. I, anyway, I I know you, we actually, you do have a, you have a little of a time limit, but I wanna, and I wanna talk more off camera, but I want to, is there, yeah. Is there, is there anything I can pro plug or send people send if they wanna know more about what you're doing?Danny Zuker (48:51):Yes. I'm on all social media @DannyZucker, Z U K E R and, and yeah. What else? I got nothing to promote right now. I, I don't know, I don't have any dates till after the new year, so I don't know what those are gonna be. We're able to performing, but but yeah, that's it.Michael Jamin (49:07):But follow there to know when your next pilot gets picked up or whatever. , when your next show. Yeah.Danny Zuker (49:12):Thank you for saying when,Michael Jamin (49:13):When, when. All right everyone, thank you so much, Danny. I can't thank you so much. I'm so happy that you did this. This is oh,Danny Zuker (49:20):I'm so fun. Respond to you, man. You've always, you've, and also you've always been one of my favorites, so dude, like I a handful full of people in there that IMichael Jamin (49:27):Dude, you're kind. So that's it everyone. Thank you so much. Yeah, continue. What am I gonna say at the end of the podcast? Well, if you wanna get on a free newsletter, go sign it for that. I send it out once a week at michaeljamin.com/watchlist. And and that's it. Continue following you know, on Instagram and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Thank you so much, Danny. Thank you again. AllDanny Zuker (49:48):Right, you're welcome.Phil Hudson (49:51):This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep riding.

In this episode, I talk with the CEO and founder of an organization that has been applying AI to help them develop products. Will AI help you develop your products faster? Come and see. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So today I have this opportunity to speak with one of those brains out there in the market that's being disruptive, right? They're making changes in the industry in terms of not only the problems are solving, but it's the way in which they're solving the problems using AI very fascinating. Anyway, everyone, please welcome Paul Ortchanian here to the show. Paul Hi, nice. Nice, nice of you, happy to be here on the show.  Grant Absolutely. It's very good to have you here today. When I was first introduced to you. And I started to review your material what it is that your organization has put together as fascinated with the approach because I have a product development background and in in the software world. AI was late comer to that right meaning over generations when I saw the approach that you're taking to that I'm interested to dig more into that. But before we do that big reveal, could you maybe step back and talk about the beginning your journey? What got you on this route? And this map, both in terms of product development, and technology and AI itself? Paul Yeah, absolutely. So I started out as an engineer, headed down to San Francisco in the early 2000s. And, and I was more of a thinker than an actual engineer, or just be the type of guy who would figure things out by themselves. But if you were to ask me to really do things that the real things engineers do, you know, creativity was there, but not the solutioning. So being in San Francisco was a humbling experience, I guess, Silicon Valley, you get to see some really, really good engineers. So I had to make a shift in my career. And since I had a passion for user experience, the business aspect, product management was a great fit a function I didn't really understand. And I got to learn and respect, and did that for about 10 years.  In the mid 2000s, and 10s, I basically moved back to Montreal for family reasons and cost of living, of course in San Francisco. And I started a company called Bank Biddick, which in French stands for public bath. And the idea is that most what I realized in Canada was that people here in accelerators, incubators and, and startups just didn't understand what product management was. So they didn't really understand what they do and how they do it. And I saw a lot of organizations being led by the marketing teams, or the sales team and being very service oriented and not really product LED.  So basically, it basically stands for public bath, which means every quarter, you want to basically apply some hygiene to your roadmap, you have a galaxy of ideas, why not go out there and just, you know, take the good ones and remove the old ones and get rid of the dirt. And we started with that premise. And we put we said, well, what does a product manager do on a on a quarterly basis? Because a lot of the material you'll read out there really talks about, you know what product managers should do in terms of personas and understanding the customer's data and this and that, but nobody really tells you which order you should do it. Right. If that was my initial struggle as a product manager, do you try to do it all in the same day and then you realize that there's not enough time? So the question is like in a one quarter 12 week cycle, as my first three weeks should be about understanding the market shifts the industry, the product competitors and and the users and then maybe in the next three weeks working with leadership on making sure that there is no pivots in the organization or there are some some major strategic changes and then going into analyzing the DIS parking lot of ideas and figuring out which ones are short term and re and making business cases in order to present them for, for the company to make a decision on What to do next on the roadmap.  So there is a process and we just call that process SOAP, which goes in line with our public bath theme. So the idea was like, let's let's give product managers SOAP to basically wash their roadmap on a quarterly basis. And, and that's what being public does. And we work with over 40 organizations today so far, on really implementing this product LEDs process within their organizations, we work with their leaders on identifying a product manager within the organization and making sure that marketing support sales, the CFO CEO really understand how to engage with them what to expect from them, and how product manager can add value to to the organization. And so they just doesn't become, you know, this grace towards them as many features as you can pump out, right. Grant Oh, boy, yeah. Which, which is constant problem. The other thing that I've noticed, and I'm wondering if, and I'm sure that your SOAP methodology addresses this, it's the problem of shifting an organization in terams of their funding model, right? They'll come from sort of these project centric or service centric funding styles, and then you've got to help them through that shift to a different funding model round products. You guys address that as well. Paul Yeah, we address that a lot. One of the things we always tell them is if you are a service professional services firm, and you know, I have no issues basically calling them that. If and I asked them like do you quantify staff utilization in percentages, like 70% of our engineers are being billed? Right? Do we basically look at the sales team? How many new deals do they have in terms of pipeline? Are we looking at on time delivery across those, so double use that to serve the sales team closed? And what is our time and technical staff attrition, that usually tends to be identifiers of you being a service firm? And we often ask them, well, let's let's make the shift, when we identify one little initiative that you have that you want to productize because they all these service firms, really all they want is recurring revenue, then the service is tough, right?  That you constantly have to bring in new clients. So this recurring revenue, the path to recurring revenue is, you know, being able to say, Okay, I'm going to take two engineers, one sales person, one marketing person, one support person, and a product manager. And those guys collectively will cost me a million dollars a year, and I'm going to expect them to basically bring me $3 million in recurring revenue. That means that they're, they're no longer going to be evaluated on staff utilization, they're no longer going to be evaluating the number of deals they're bringing in. And they're, they're really going to be evaluated on how are they releasing features? Are they creating value for those features? are we increasing the number of paid customers? And are we basically, you know, staying abreast in terms of competitors and market industry changes.  And so that's a complete paradigm shift. And that transition takes a while. But the first seed is really being able to say, can you create an entity within your organization where the CFO accepts that those engineers are dedicated and no longer being, you know, reviewed in terms of their utilization rate in terms of their know how much they're billing to customers? Once they do that shift in the recipe is pretty easy to do. Grant Yeah. So it's become easy. So the thing to I've seen and experienced with, with product and product development is the relationship of innovation to product development. And so I see some groups will take innovation, and they'll move that as some separate activity or function in the organization, whereas others will have that innate within the product team itself. What have you found effective? And does self addressed that? Paul Yeah, I mean, we always ask them the question of what how are you going to defend yourself against the competition with the VCs that have to call their moat, right? And that defensibility could be innovation, it could also be your global footprint, or, you know, it could be how you operationalize your supply chain make things really, really cheap, right? Every company can have a different strategy. And we really ask them from the get go. We call this playing the strategy, we'll give them like eight potential ways a company can, you know, find strategies to differentiate themselves? And the first one is first the market?  And the question is, it's not about you being first to market today. But do you want to outpace your curlier closest rivals on a regular basis? And if so, you know, you need an r&d team and innovation team who is basically going to be pumping out commercializable features or r&d work. And then we always give him the two examples, the example of Dolby Dolby being completely analog in the 70s, but really banking on their r&d team to bring him to the digital age and from the digital age to set top boxes to Hollywood and now into Netflix compression, right?  So they basically put their R&D team as the leader to basically keep them a step ahead of their competition. But it but on the other hand, we also Welcome, you know, talk about Tesla, where Tesla is basically doing the same thing, but they're not doing it for intellectual property like Dolby, they're not suing anybody are actually open sourcing it. But there's a reason behind it where that open sourcing allows them to basically create the, you know, what we call the Betamax VHS issue, which is making sure that there's compatibility across car manufacturers for Tesla parts and overproduction of parts that are Tesla just to increase their supply chain, right? So we ask them, Do you want to be that company, if you don't want to be that company, then there's other ways for you to basically create defensibility, it could be regulatory compliance, if your industry requires it, you can go global, you can go cross industry, you can basically create customer logins, how just how SAP and Salesforce love to basically just integrate workflows with like boots on the ground, professional services certified teams, right?  And or you can basically review your process and make sure just like Amazon, that you're creating robots to do human work in order to just basically do it cheaper than anybody else. So there's ways of doing it. And I would say that if you were in AI space, especially, you know, it's important to make sure that, you know, are you really trying to innovate through AI, because you can get a lot of researchers doing a lot of things, but that's not really going to help you create commercializable ideas. So from the get go, the leadership team needs to, you know, at least make a hedge a bet on, you know, expansion, innovation, or creating efficiencies and just, you know, decide and let the product management team know in which direction they're gonna go planning on going for the next six years. Please. Grant I love your last comment there, Paul about about getting the leadership team involved. It seems that many times in organizations, this challenge of making the change sticky, right, making it last making it resonate, where people truly change their operating model, right, they're going to start operating in a different way, their roles and responsibilities change, what is the order in which things get done all of those change, when they start moving both into this AI space, but you know, product driven just by itself, even without AI has its own set of challenges? So here's the question I have for you. As you move companies through this transformation, that's part of your business, right? You are transforming the way companies operate and bring about better outcomes. How do you make those changes sticky? Because this is a cultural change? What is it you guys have found it's effective? Paul Or it goes back to our name public bath and SOAP, right? Because the idea is, you take a bath on a regular basis hygiene is something you do regularly, right? So we ask these organization, if we give you a process where you know exactly what the product management team is going to do with you with the leadership team in order to prioritize your next upcoming features, then can you do it in a cyclical way, every quarter, you need the product manager do the exact same process of revisiting the competitors, the industry, the market, as well as like the problems that you have with your premature customers, bringing it back to the organization, asking if the strategy is still about expansion, innovation, efficiencies, identifying new ideas, clearing up the parking lot of bad ideas, etc, and eventually making the business case for the new features in order for them to make a commitment. So if we do this in a cyclical way, then the product role becomes the role of what I'd like to call the CRO, which is the chief repeating officer, because all the product manager is doing is repeating that strategy and questioning the CEO, are we still on? Are we pivoting or if we pivot?  What does that mean? And if you're doing it on a three month basis, what that allows your company to do is to make sure that the marketing and sales and support team are going along with what the engineering team is going to be delivering. So this is what I usually see most product organization where a decision has been made that the engineers are going to be building a particular feature, the sales and marketing team just waits for the engineers to be Code Complete. And once a code completes, done, they're like, Okay, now we're gonna promote it. But my question is that it's too late. Right? You really need so I always show the talk about Apple, how Apple would basically go out in front of millions of people and just say, here's the new iPhone 13. And we came up with a new version of Safari, and we're updating our iOS and we're doing a 40 Other changes. And the next thing you want considered an Apple store and you know, everything has changed. The marketing has changed the guys that the doing the conferences, and the lectures and the training are all talking about the new supplier, the new iPhone, and you ask yourself, How did how did Apple know and to organize the marketing support and sales team in that in such a way that the day that the announcement has been done? Everything is changed. So that means that it's not just the engineering team's responsibility to get to Code Complete.  It is a collective responsibility where marketing support and sales are also preparing for the upcoming releases. And and the only way you can get that type of alignment is If every three months these these parties, technology, product, CEO, CFO, sales, marketing and support can get together and make a clear decision on what they're going to do, and be honest enough of what they're not going to do, and then work collectively together on making sure that that those are being delivered and prepared in terms of the size of the promotion that we're going to do, and how are we going to outreach how's the sales collateral going to change? How is the support team going to support these upcoming features. And so everybody has work to do in that three months timeframes. So and then that if we can get to that cyclical elements, I think most companies can create momentum. And once that momentum has is generating small increments of value to the customers, then you base start start building, what I like to call reputational capital, with the clients, with the customers with the prospects. And eventually anything you release the love, and everything you release adds value. And eventually everybody loves everything you're doing as an organization become that, you know, big unicorn that people want to be. Grant Yeah, so the net of that is, I believe what you said as you operationalize it. Now there's it gets integrated into everyone's role and responsibility. It's this enterprise level cross functional alignment that gets on a campus. And the cadence is, in your case, you'd mentioned quarterly, quarterly sounds like that's been a real real gem for you. I've seen some organizations do that in shorter timeframes and some much longer. It sounds like yeah, at least quarterly is that a good nugget that you find there?  Paul Yeah, quarterly works, because you know, markets are set in a quarter way they operate in that way the you want results on a quarterly basis in terms of sales in terms of engagement, etc. But what's important is that which you know, a lot of engineering teams like to work agile or Kanban. And in a quarter in a 12 week timeframe, you could fit, I'd say, Let's see your Sprint's are three weeks, you could fit for sprint for three weeks variance, or you could fit six 2-week sprints. But I feel that if you were to shorten it, then the marketing team and sales teams supporting might not have enough time to prepare themselves for Code Complete, the engineers might be able to deliver but then the product manager gets overwhelmed because doing an industry research, competitor research etc. Every, say month and a half or two months just becomes overwhelming for them. Because things don't change enough in two months for them to be able to say, Oh, look, this competitor just came up with that. And now we need so so I think three months is enough time for the world to change for, you know, country to go to war for COVID to come over and just destroy everything. So pivot decisions are usually can pretty good to do on a on a quarterly basis.  Grant Yeah, that's good. That's, I think COVID follow that rule. Right. Hey, I have a question for you around AI. So how are you leveraging AI in the midst of all this? Can you talk about that? Paul Yeah, absolutely. So what we noticed is a lot of organizations who have products, so SaaS products, or any type of product, IoT products, etc, they're generating data. I mean, it's it comes hand in hand with software development. So all that data is going into these databases are and nobody knows what to do with them. And eventually, you know, they want to start creating business intelligence, and from business intelligence, AI initiatives have just come about, it's very normal to say, You know what, with all this data, if we were to train a machine learning module, we would be able to recommend the best flight price or the best time for somebody to buy a flight, because we have enough data to do it. So so we're not working with AI first organizations who are here we have, our entire product is going to be around AI, we're just trying to work with organizations that have enough data to warrant 1-2-3, or four AI initiatives and an ongoing investment into those. So the best example I like to talk about is the Google Gmail suggestive, replies, right, which is adding value to the user needs AI in the back, end a lot of data.  But ultimately, it's not that Gmail isn't AI product, it simply has AI features in it. So and when organizations start identifying AI or machine learning, predictive elements to their product, then we go from engineering being a deterministic function, which is if we were to deliver this feature, then customers will be able to do that to a probabilistic function where Let's experiment and see what the data can give us. And if this algorithm ends up really nailing it, we will achieve this result. But if it doesn't, then do we release it? Do we not release it?  What's the and then it gets a little bit hairy because product managers just lose themselves into it. Oftentimes, they'll release a feature and the sales team would just ask them to pull it out right away because it has not met the expectations of a customer or two. And ultimately, like what we ask product managers to do is work with leadership on really it Identifying a few key elements that are very, very important to just just baseline before you were to begin an AI project. And those are pretty simple. It's, it's really like, are you trying to create to have the machine learning module? Make a prediction? Are you or are you trying for it to make a prediction plus pass judgment? Are you trying to make it a prediction, a judgment and take action? Right? Decision automation, which is what you know, self driving cars do, will will see biker, they will make a prediction that it's a biker will make a judgment that it's indeed a biker, and we'll take action to avoid the biker, right?  But when you when you're creating ml projects, you can easily say, you know, we're just going to keep it to prediction, right? Like this machine is going to predict something and then a human will make judgment and the human will take action. There's nothing wrong in doing that. So just setting the expectations for from the get go in terms of are we basically going to predict judge or take action? That's number one. And then the next question is whatever that we decide if it's just prediction, is that worth guessing? And who doesn't have guessed today, if it's a human? Is that how accurate is that human? Let's quantify. So this way we can compare it against what this machine is going to do? What is the value the company gets out of that gas being the right gas? And what's the cost of getting it wrong? So oftentimes, we forget that humans to get it wrong to and if humans get it wrong, there are huge consequences to organizations that will overlook but as soon as machine learning does the same thing, we're ready to just cancel hundreds of $1,000 of investment.  Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we tossed it out. So the use case, I'm assuming would be you would leverage AI to say enhance a product managers abilities to either predict outcomes of some product development activities, or releases or things like that, would that be a kind of use case where he looked apply? Paul Well, not a product managers, I would say the product manager, we'd look at it software, let's take the software of a website that tries to predict your if people qualify for a mortgage loan, for example, right? So you have enough data at that point to be able to automate, what's the underwriting process that humans do of validating whether or not somebody's eligible for loan? Well, we could take all that data and just make a prediction of that person's fit for a particular loan. Now, if we were to say, well, it's just going to be the prediction, but we're not going to give this person the loan, we're still going to ask a human being to pass judgment that that prediction was the correct one, and then take action to give or not give him a loan.  So let's say that's the machine learning module, we're going to add to our to our feature. Now, the question is how this underwriting department in the past 10 years, how often did they really screw up that, you know, and issued loans to people that were that couldn't pay their loan, right? And realize it's 40%? Were like, Wow, 40%? Could this machine learning be as accurate as damn plus one, right? And, and then we ended up realizing that yeah, this, whatever we delivered is 33% accurate, and not 40% plus one accurate now is it still worth putting out there we spent $100,000 into it, and then you know, then it's up to the product manager to basically be able to put this thing in place and say, but look, you know, underwriting is a nine to five job currently in our business, and it cost us this much money.  On the other hand, if there's this machine learning is 33% accurate, but it's actually doing it 24/7 365 days a year, and it's only going to improve from 33 to 40. And if it goes above 40, then we the savings for our organization are this much money. So it is really the product managers job to be able to not only talking about the business KPIs, but also the what the AI machine learning KPIs we need to achieve and what the impact of that would be if we get it right. And I think that the biggest issue we have as product managers in the AI space is if we were to go and do this all there everything that we need to create AI, like the day data ops, selecting the data, sourcing it, synthesizing it, cleaning it, etc. The model ops, which, you know, comes down to multiple algorithms, training those algorithms, evaluating tuning them, and then the operationalization. If you do all these steps, and you get to 80 to 20% accuracy, and your target is at 70% accuracy, right? What do you do with it?  Because you had to do all this work anyways, it cost you tons of money and time. And so how do we get the leadership team to say this AI initiative has enough value for us that we're willing to live with the consequences of it getting it wrong, or we're willing to actually have it supported by human for the next six months to a year until we basically trains itself and gets better? So it's how do you get this openness from from from a leadership team? Because what I've often find delivering AI projects is every time you deliver an AI project, and it's misunderstood in terms of its output, and everybody thinks it has to be 100% accurate, the second and goes wrong. It's the political drama that you have to go through in order to keep it alive. is just it's just overwhelming, right? So miners will set those expectations up front and tool, the product managers with the right arguments to make sure that they the expectations are set correctly. Grant Have you ever worked with or heard of the company called digital.ai? Are your familiar with them? digital.ai, maybe not. Anyway, they have been working in a similar space as you but not so much of the product management level. What they're doing, though, is they're, they're looking to apply AI to the whole delivery function. So so you can you see, the product manager is above this, and is making sort of these KPIs and other estimate activities and the planning out. But then there are all these functions under there that of course, do the delivery of the product. And so they're working on the tooling spectrum, I think they acquired I think, was five different companies like in the last nine months, that they're integrating these and then building this AI seam or layer across that data across delivery with that purpose and intent to do that predictive not not only backwards analysis activities around AI, but predictive, which is what's the probabilities, I might run into the problem, or some problem with this particular release, right, of this product, right, that we're about to send out, now might be an interesting group for you to get connected with. Paul Yeah, I know, it's funny, because we're there. There's a local company here in Montreal that does the same thing. It's really about like data scientists are really expensive, and they're really hard to find, and there's a shortage of them. So, you know, the lot of organizations are trying to find like a self serve AI solution where you can build your AI using their AI. But ultimately, what they're doing is taking your data and delivering 123 or 10 versions of the machine learning module, it's up to you basically, judge which one is going to work the best for you, but they actually operationalize it, put it out there for you, and really automate the whole thing. So this way, you're not dependent on humans, I love that I really love that I think your organization should have one of those. But that still means that there's a dependency from the for the product manager to know that it's, it's data, like end to end, be able to clean it be able to tag it and then feed it to the to these machines, right? And I think that part is also misunderstood. Because Do we have enough data? Is there bias in the data and all that needs to be understood and figure it out? Because, you know, you could say like, Hey, we put it to this big machine. And we ended up with a 20% accuracy on the best ml that it out, put it, but that's still not good enough? Because we're trying, we're aiming for 87? And what does it mean? What do we need to do to basically get it to 87? We're gonna have to review the data bringing some third party data, you know, and it's, and that's, that costs a lot as well. So, yeah, Grant Do you think AutoML solutions play a role here like, Aible, I don't know if you're familiar with that platform, you know, that the goal is to try to reduce the amount of dependency that's needed on the data science. Scientists themselves, right. And but it's, it's still doesn't remove all of the data cleansing part, but it does help take care of some of the certainly the low level data science requirements, you think you think that's a viable solution in this area?  Paul I think it is. I mean, it's, you know, we went from rule based AI, where data scientists had to do good old fashioned AI, which was a feature engineering, right? Putting the rules themselves to machine learning AI, where, you know, we had to train the data that we needed, were so dependent on these data scientists. And now we're getting to v3, where we have these tools. And you know, there's a data dependency, but there, they also don't have such a high dependency on data scientists are and you know, figuring our algorithms and etc, we could just basically have these prepackaged algorithms that could basically output us any types of solution. What I tend to like, I've seen this a lot in a lot of companies. There's some companies that are very, very industry specific, right? So they're providing AI for E-commerce to be able to provide better search with predictive elements based on the person's browsing history. I mean, I, I'm not sure, but the ones that are providing every ML imaginable, so you could use it for supply chain, or you could use it for something else. I know it's dependent on data. But again, these algorithms, you can't have all the algorithms for all scenarios.  Even if it's supply chain, some person has perishables and there's ordering bananas and the other person is ordering, I don't know water coolers, and those, those don't have the same rules, right. You know, so it's, it's important to just, I think that maybe in the coming years, we'll have a lot of companies that are really going cross industry, just like we're in E-commerce, the other ones that are med tech, the other ones are, etcetera, the tools are the same. I mean, more or less the same, the customers are gonna get used to basically having these UI is that I'll give you your input the data in and then these emails come out, and then you choose which one and they give you probability you can retrain them and all that stuff. And I think that it's just going to get to a point where we're going to have these product managers who are now responsible of kind of training the Machine Learning Module themselves, you know if it's going to be the product manager, or if it's going to be some other function, where I think it does definitely fit inside the product managers? Grant Well I do is, I think it's because they still need to have what we would call the domain knowledge and in this domain of building products, yeah, AI, at least at least in this phase of the life of AI, where we are today for the foreseeable future. I think the product manager needs to be involved with that. Sure. So. Paul It comes down to intuition, right, somebody has to have like to build that intuition about what a model is relying on when making a judgment. And I think that, you know, with product managers, the closest one really, maybe in bigger organizations, it's the person who's managing analytics and data, but in smaller startup organization, I can definitely see the product manager putting that  Grant Yeah, absolutely. Paul, I really appreciate you taking the time. Here today on this been fascinating conversation. Any last comments you want to share? Paul We have tons of articles that talk about so we're very open source as an organization. So if you want to learn more about this, we have about 70 articles on our website. Just go to BainPublic.com and just click on "Articles" and you could just, you know, self serve and basically improve as a product manager in the AI space. Grant Excellent, fascinating, love, love the conversation, your insight and the vision where you guys are taking this I think you're gonna continue to disrupt everyone. Thanks for joining another episode of ClickAI Radio and until next time, check out BainPublic.com. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

In this episode, I talk with the CEO and founder of an organization that has been applying AI to help them develop products. Will AI help you develop your products faster? Come and see. Grant Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So today I have this opportunity to speak with one of those brains out there in the market that's being disruptive, right? They're making changes in the industry in terms of not only the problems are solving, but it's the way in which they're solving the problems using AI very fascinating. Anyway, everyone, please welcome Paul Ortchanian here to the show. Paul Hi, nice. Nice, nice of you, happy to be here on the show.  Grant Absolutely. It's very good to have you here today. When I was first introduced to you. And I started to review your material what it is that your organization has put together as fascinated with the approach because I have a product development background and in in the software world. AI was late comer to that right meaning over generations when I saw the approach that you're taking to that I'm interested to dig more into that. But before we do that big reveal, could you maybe step back and talk about the beginning your journey? What got you on this route? And this map, both in terms of product development, and technology and AI itself? Paul Yeah, absolutely. So I started out as an engineer, headed down to San Francisco in the early 2000s. And, and I was more of a thinker than an actual engineer, or just be the type of guy who would figure things out by themselves. But if you were to ask me to really do things that the real things engineers do, you know, creativity was there, but not the solutioning. So being in San Francisco was a humbling experience, I guess, Silicon Valley, you get to see some really, really good engineers. So I had to make a shift in my career. And since I had a passion for user experience, the business aspect, product management was a great fit a function I didn't really understand. And I got to learn and respect, and did that for about 10 years.  In the mid 2000s, and 10s, I basically moved back to Montreal for family reasons and cost of living, of course in San Francisco. And I started a company called Bank Biddick, which in French stands for public bath. And the idea is that most what I realized in Canada was that people here in accelerators, incubators and, and startups just didn't understand what product management was. So they didn't really understand what they do and how they do it. And I saw a lot of organizations being led by the marketing teams, or the sales team and being very service oriented and not really product LED.  So basically, it basically stands for public bath, which means every quarter, you want to basically apply some hygiene to your roadmap, you have a galaxy of ideas, why not go out there and just, you know, take the good ones and remove the old ones and get rid of the dirt. And we started with that premise. And we put we said, well, what does a product manager do on a on a quarterly basis? Because a lot of the material you'll read out there really talks about, you know what product managers should do in terms of personas and understanding the customer's data and this and that, but nobody really tells you which order you should do it. Right. If that was my initial struggle as a product manager, do you try to do it all in the same day and then you realize that there's not enough time? So the question is like in a one quarter 12 week cycle, as my first three weeks should be about understanding the market shifts the industry, the product competitors and and the users and then maybe in the next three weeks working with leadership on making sure that there is no pivots in the organization or there are some some major strategic changes and then going into analyzing the DIS parking lot of ideas and figuring out which ones are short term and re and making business cases in order to present them for, for the company to make a decision on What to do next on the roadmap.  So there is a process and we just call that process SOAP, which goes in line with our public bath theme. So the idea was like, let's let's give product managers SOAP to basically wash their roadmap on a quarterly basis. And, and that's what being public does. And we work with over 40 organizations today so far, on really implementing this product LEDs process within their organizations, we work with their leaders on identifying a product manager within the organization and making sure that marketing support sales, the CFO CEO really understand how to engage with them what to expect from them, and how product manager can add value to to the organization. And so they just doesn't become, you know, this grace towards them as many features as you can pump out, right. Grant Oh, boy, yeah. Which, which is constant problem. The other thing that I've noticed, and I'm wondering if, and I'm sure that your SOAP methodology addresses this, it's the problem of shifting an organization in terams of their funding model, right? They'll come from sort of these project centric or service centric funding styles, and then you've got to help them through that shift to a different funding model round products. You guys address that as well. Paul Yeah, we address that a lot. One of the things we always tell them is if you are a service professional services firm, and you know, I have no issues basically calling them that. If and I asked them like do you quantify staff utilization in percentages, like 70% of our engineers are being billed? Right? Do we basically look at the sales team? How many new deals do they have in terms of pipeline? Are we looking at on time delivery across those, so double use that to serve the sales team closed? And what is our time and technical staff attrition, that usually tends to be identifiers of you being a service firm? And we often ask them, well, let's let's make the shift, when we identify one little initiative that you have that you want to productize because they all these service firms, really all they want is recurring revenue, then the service is tough, right?  That you constantly have to bring in new clients. So this recurring revenue, the path to recurring revenue is, you know, being able to say, Okay, I'm going to take two engineers, one sales person, one marketing person, one support person, and a product manager. And those guys collectively will cost me a million dollars a year, and I'm going to expect them to basically bring me $3 million in recurring revenue. That means that they're, they're no longer going to be evaluated on staff utilization, they're no longer going to be evaluating the number of deals they're bringing in. And they're, they're really going to be evaluated on how are they releasing features? Are they creating value for those features? are we increasing the number of paid customers? And are we basically, you know, staying abreast in terms of competitors and market industry changes.  And so that's a complete paradigm shift. And that transition takes a while. But the first seed is really being able to say, can you create an entity within your organization where the CFO accepts that those engineers are dedicated and no longer being, you know, reviewed in terms of their utilization rate in terms of their know how much they're billing to customers? Once they do that shift in the recipe is pretty easy to do. Grant Yeah. So it's become easy. So the thing to I've seen and experienced with, with product and product development is the relationship of innovation to product development. And so I see some groups will take innovation, and they'll move that as some separate activity or function in the organization, whereas others will have that innate within the product team itself. What have you found effective? And does self addressed that? Paul Yeah, I mean, we always ask them the question of what how are you going to defend yourself against the competition with the VCs that have to call their moat, right? And that defensibility could be innovation, it could also be your global footprint, or, you know, it could be how you operationalize your supply chain make things really, really cheap, right? Every company can have a different strategy. And we really ask them from the get go. We call this playing the strategy, we'll give them like eight potential ways a company can, you know, find strategies to differentiate themselves? And the first one is first the market?  And the question is, it's not about you being first to market today. But do you want to outpace your curlier closest rivals on a regular basis? And if so, you know, you need an r&d team and innovation team who is basically going to be pumping out commercializable features or r&d work. And then we always give him the two examples, the example of Dolby Dolby being completely analog in the 70s, but really banking on their r&d team to bring him to the digital age and from the digital age to set top boxes to Hollywood and now into Netflix compression, right?  So they basically put their R&D team as the leader to basically keep them a step ahead of their competition. But it but on the other hand, we also Welcome, you know, talk about Tesla, where Tesla is basically doing the same thing, but they're not doing it for intellectual property like Dolby, they're not suing anybody are actually open sourcing it. But there's a reason behind it where that open sourcing allows them to basically create the, you know, what we call the Betamax VHS issue, which is making sure that there's compatibility across car manufacturers for Tesla parts and overproduction of parts that are Tesla just to increase their supply chain, right? So we ask them, Do you want to be that company, if you don't want to be that company, then there's other ways for you to basically create defensibility, it could be regulatory compliance, if your industry requires it, you can go global, you can go cross industry, you can basically create customer logins, how just how SAP and Salesforce love to basically just integrate workflows with like boots on the ground, professional services certified teams, right?  And or you can basically review your process and make sure just like Amazon, that you're creating robots to do human work in order to just basically do it cheaper than anybody else. So there's ways of doing it. And I would say that if you were in AI space, especially, you know, it's important to make sure that, you know, are you really trying to innovate through AI, because you can get a lot of researchers doing a lot of things, but that's not really going to help you create commercializable ideas. So from the get go, the leadership team needs to, you know, at least make a hedge a bet on, you know, expansion, innovation, or creating efficiencies and just, you know, decide and let the product management team know in which direction they're gonna go planning on going for the next six years. Please. Grant I love your last comment there, Paul about about getting the leadership team involved. It seems that many times in organizations, this challenge of making the change sticky, right, making it last making it resonate, where people truly change their operating model, right, they're going to start operating in a different way, their roles and responsibilities change, what is the order in which things get done all of those change, when they start moving both into this AI space, but you know, product driven just by itself, even without AI has its own set of challenges? So here's the question I have for you. As you move companies through this transformation, that's part of your business, right? You are transforming the way companies operate and bring about better outcomes. How do you make those changes sticky? Because this is a cultural change? What is it you guys have found it's effective? Paul Or it goes back to our name public bath and SOAP, right? Because the idea is, you take a bath on a regular basis hygiene is something you do regularly, right? So we ask these organization, if we give you a process where you know exactly what the product management team is going to do with you with the leadership team in order to prioritize your next upcoming features, then can you do it in a cyclical way, every quarter, you need the product manager do the exact same process of revisiting the competitors, the industry, the market, as well as like the problems that you have with your premature customers, bringing it back to the organization, asking if the strategy is still about expansion, innovation, efficiencies, identifying new ideas, clearing up the parking lot of bad ideas, etc, and eventually making the business case for the new features in order for them to make a commitment. So if we do this in a cyclical way, then the product role becomes the role of what I'd like to call the CRO, which is the chief repeating officer, because all the product manager is doing is repeating that strategy and questioning the CEO, are we still on? Are we pivoting or if we pivot?  What does that mean? And if you're doing it on a three month basis, what that allows your company to do is to make sure that the marketing and sales and support team are going along with what the engineering team is going to be delivering. So this is what I usually see most product organization where a decision has been made that the engineers are going to be building a particular feature, the sales and marketing team just waits for the engineers to be Code Complete. And once a code completes, done, they're like, Okay, now we're gonna promote it. But my question is that it's too late. Right? You really need so I always show the talk about Apple, how Apple would basically go out in front of millions of people and just say, here's the new iPhone 13. And we came up with a new version of Safari, and we're updating our iOS and we're doing a 40 Other changes. And the next thing you want considered an Apple store and you know, everything has changed. The marketing has changed the guys that the doing the conferences, and the lectures and the training are all talking about the new supplier, the new iPhone, and you ask yourself, How did how did Apple know and to organize the marketing support and sales team in that in such a way that the day that the announcement has been done? Everything is changed. So that means that it's not just the engineering team's responsibility to get to Code Complete.  It is a collective responsibility where marketing support and sales are also preparing for the upcoming releases. And and the only way you can get that type of alignment is If every three months these these parties, technology, product, CEO, CFO, sales, marketing and support can get together and make a clear decision on what they're going to do, and be honest enough of what they're not going to do, and then work collectively together on making sure that that those are being delivered and prepared in terms of the size of the promotion that we're going to do, and how are we going to outreach how's the sales collateral going to change? How is the support team going to support these upcoming features. And so everybody has work to do in that three months timeframes. So and then that if we can get to that cyclical elements, I think most companies can create momentum. And once that momentum has is generating small increments of value to the customers, then you base start start building, what I like to call reputational capital, with the clients, with the customers with the prospects. And eventually anything you release the love, and everything you release adds value. And eventually everybody loves everything you're doing as an organization become that, you know, big unicorn that people want to be. Grant Yeah, so the net of that is, I believe what you said as you operationalize it. Now there's it gets integrated into everyone's role and responsibility. It's this enterprise level cross functional alignment that gets on a campus. And the cadence is, in your case, you'd mentioned quarterly, quarterly sounds like that's been a real real gem for you. I've seen some organizations do that in shorter timeframes and some much longer. It sounds like yeah, at least quarterly is that a good nugget that you find there?  Paul Yeah, quarterly works, because you know, markets are set in a quarter way they operate in that way the you want results on a quarterly basis in terms of sales in terms of engagement, etc. But what's important is that which you know, a lot of engineering teams like to work agile or Kanban. And in a quarter in a 12 week timeframe, you could fit, I'd say, Let's see your Sprint's are three weeks, you could fit for sprint for three weeks variance, or you could fit six 2-week sprints. But I feel that if you were to shorten it, then the marketing team and sales teams supporting might not have enough time to prepare themselves for Code Complete, the engineers might be able to deliver but then the product manager gets overwhelmed because doing an industry research, competitor research etc. Every, say month and a half or two months just becomes overwhelming for them. Because things don't change enough in two months for them to be able to say, Oh, look, this competitor just came up with that. And now we need so so I think three months is enough time for the world to change for, you know, country to go to war for COVID to come over and just destroy everything. So pivot decisions are usually can pretty good to do on a on a quarterly basis.  Grant Yeah, that's good. That's, I think COVID follow that rule. Right. Hey, I have a question for you around AI. So how are you leveraging AI in the midst of all this? Can you talk about that? Paul Yeah, absolutely. So what we noticed is a lot of organizations who have products, so SaaS products, or any type of product, IoT products, etc, they're generating data. I mean, it's it comes hand in hand with software development. So all that data is going into these databases are and nobody knows what to do with them. And eventually, you know, they want to start creating business intelligence, and from business intelligence, AI initiatives have just come about, it's very normal to say, You know what, with all this data, if we were to train a machine learning module, we would be able to recommend the best flight price or the best time for somebody to buy a flight, because we have enough data to do it. So so we're not working with AI first organizations who are here we have, our entire product is going to be around AI, we're just trying to work with organizations that have enough data to warrant 1-2-3, or four AI initiatives and an ongoing investment into those. So the best example I like to talk about is the Google Gmail suggestive, replies, right, which is adding value to the user needs AI in the back, end a lot of data.  But ultimately, it's not that Gmail isn't AI product, it simply has AI features in it. So and when organizations start identifying AI or machine learning, predictive elements to their product, then we go from engineering being a deterministic function, which is if we were to deliver this feature, then customers will be able to do that to a probabilistic function where Let's experiment and see what the data can give us. And if this algorithm ends up really nailing it, we will achieve this result. But if it doesn't, then do we release it? Do we not release it?  What's the and then it gets a little bit hairy because product managers just lose themselves into it. Oftentimes, they'll release a feature and the sales team would just ask them to pull it out right away because it has not met the expectations of a customer or two. And ultimately, like what we ask product managers to do is work with leadership on really it Identifying a few key elements that are very, very important to just just baseline before you were to begin an AI project. And those are pretty simple. It's, it's really like, are you trying to create to have the machine learning module? Make a prediction? Are you or are you trying for it to make a prediction plus pass judgment? Are you trying to make it a prediction, a judgment and take action? Right? Decision automation, which is what you know, self driving cars do, will will see biker, they will make a prediction that it's a biker will make a judgment that it's indeed a biker, and we'll take action to avoid the biker, right?  But when you when you're creating ml projects, you can easily say, you know, we're just going to keep it to prediction, right? Like this machine is going to predict something and then a human will make judgment and the human will take action. There's nothing wrong in doing that. So just setting the expectations for from the get go in terms of are we basically going to predict judge or take action? That's number one. And then the next question is whatever that we decide if it's just prediction, is that worth guessing? And who doesn't have guessed today, if it's a human? Is that how accurate is that human? Let's quantify. So this way we can compare it against what this machine is going to do? What is the value the company gets out of that gas being the right gas? And what's the cost of getting it wrong? So oftentimes, we forget that humans to get it wrong to and if humans get it wrong, there are huge consequences to organizations that will overlook but as soon as machine learning does the same thing, we're ready to just cancel hundreds of $1,000 of investment.  Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we tossed it out. So the use case, I'm assuming would be you would leverage AI to say enhance a product managers abilities to either predict outcomes of some product development activities, or releases or things like that, would that be a kind of use case where he looked apply? Paul Well, not a product managers, I would say the product manager, we'd look at it software, let's take the software of a website that tries to predict your if people qualify for a mortgage loan, for example, right? So you have enough data at that point to be able to automate, what's the underwriting process that humans do of validating whether or not somebody's eligible for loan? Well, we could take all that data and just make a prediction of that person's fit for a particular loan. Now, if we were to say, well, it's just going to be the prediction, but we're not going to give this person the loan, we're still going to ask a human being to pass judgment that that prediction was the correct one, and then take action to give or not give him a loan.  So let's say that's the machine learning module, we're going to add to our to our feature. Now, the question is how this underwriting department in the past 10 years, how often did they really screw up that, you know, and issued loans to people that were that couldn't pay their loan, right? And realize it's 40%? Were like, Wow, 40%? Could this machine learning be as accurate as damn plus one, right? And, and then we ended up realizing that yeah, this, whatever we delivered is 33% accurate, and not 40% plus one accurate now is it still worth putting out there we spent $100,000 into it, and then you know, then it's up to the product manager to basically be able to put this thing in place and say, but look, you know, underwriting is a nine to five job currently in our business, and it cost us this much money.  On the other hand, if there's this machine learning is 33% accurate, but it's actually doing it 24/7 365 days a year, and it's only going to improve from 33 to 40. And if it goes above 40, then we the savings for our organization are this much money. So it is really the product managers job to be able to not only talking about the business KPIs, but also the what the AI machine learning KPIs we need to achieve and what the impact of that would be if we get it right. And I think that the biggest issue we have as product managers in the AI space is if we were to go and do this all there everything that we need to create AI, like the day data ops, selecting the data, sourcing it, synthesizing it, cleaning it, etc. The model ops, which, you know, comes down to multiple algorithms, training those algorithms, evaluating tuning them, and then the operationalization. If you do all these steps, and you get to 80 to 20% accuracy, and your target is at 70% accuracy, right? What do you do with it?  Because you had to do all this work anyways, it cost you tons of money and time. And so how do we get the leadership team to say this AI initiative has enough value for us that we're willing to live with the consequences of it getting it wrong, or we're willing to actually have it supported by human for the next six months to a year until we basically trains itself and gets better? So it's how do you get this openness from from from a leadership team? Because what I've often find delivering AI projects is every time you deliver an AI project, and it's misunderstood in terms of its output, and everybody thinks it has to be 100% accurate, the second and goes wrong. It's the political drama that you have to go through in order to keep it alive. is just it's just overwhelming, right? So miners will set those expectations up front and tool, the product managers with the right arguments to make sure that they the expectations are set correctly. Grant Have you ever worked with or heard of the company called digital.ai? Are your familiar with them? digital.ai, maybe not. Anyway, they have been working in a similar space as you but not so much of the product management level. What they're doing, though, is they're, they're looking to apply AI to the whole delivery function. So so you can you see, the product manager is above this, and is making sort of these KPIs and other estimate activities and the planning out. But then there are all these functions under there that of course, do the delivery of the product. And so they're working on the tooling spectrum, I think they acquired I think, was five different companies like in the last nine months, that they're integrating these and then building this AI seam or layer across that data across delivery with that purpose and intent to do that predictive not not only backwards analysis activities around AI, but predictive, which is what's the probabilities, I might run into the problem, or some problem with this particular release, right, of this product, right, that we're about to send out, now might be an interesting group for you to get connected with. Paul Yeah, I know, it's funny, because we're there. There's a local company here in Montreal that does the same thing. It's really about like data scientists are really expensive, and they're really hard to find, and there's a shortage of them. So, you know, the lot of organizations are trying to find like a self serve AI solution where you can build your AI using their AI. But ultimately, what they're doing is taking your data and delivering 123 or 10 versions of the machine learning module, it's up to you basically, judge which one is going to work the best for you, but they actually operationalize it, put it out there for you, and really automate the whole thing. So this way, you're not dependent on humans, I love that I really love that I think your organization should have one of those. But that still means that there's a dependency from the for the product manager to know that it's, it's data, like end to end, be able to clean it be able to tag it and then feed it to the to these machines, right? And I think that part is also misunderstood. Because Do we have enough data? Is there bias in the data and all that needs to be understood and figure it out? Because, you know, you could say like, Hey, we put it to this big machine. And we ended up with a 20% accuracy on the best ml that it out, put it, but that's still not good enough? Because we're trying, we're aiming for 87? And what does it mean? What do we need to do to basically get it to 87? We're gonna have to review the data bringing some third party data, you know, and it's, and that's, that costs a lot as well. So, yeah, Grant Do you think AutoML solutions play a role here like, Aible, I don't know if you're familiar with that platform, you know, that the goal is to try to reduce the amount of dependency that's needed on the data science. Scientists themselves, right. And but it's, it's still doesn't remove all of the data cleansing part, but it does help take care of some of the certainly the low level data science requirements, you think you think that's a viable solution in this area?  Paul I think it is. I mean, it's, you know, we went from rule based AI, where data scientists had to do good old fashioned AI, which was a feature engineering, right? Putting the rules themselves to machine learning AI, where, you know, we had to train the data that we needed, were so dependent on these data scientists. And now we're getting to v3, where we have these tools. And you know, there's a data dependency, but there, they also don't have such a high dependency on data scientists are and you know, figuring our algorithms and etc, we could just basically have these prepackaged algorithms that could basically output us any types of solution. What I tend to like, I've seen this a lot in a lot of companies. There's some companies that are very, very industry specific, right? So they're providing AI for E-commerce to be able to provide better search with predictive elements based on the person's browsing history. I mean, I, I'm not sure, but the ones that are providing every ML imaginable, so you could use it for supply chain, or you could use it for something else. I know it's dependent on data. But again, these algorithms, you can't have all the algorithms for all scenarios.  Even if it's supply chain, some person has perishables and there's ordering bananas and the other person is ordering, I don't know water coolers, and those, those don't have the same rules, right. You know, so it's, it's important to just, I think that maybe in the coming years, we'll have a lot of companies that are really going cross industry, just like we're in E-commerce, the other ones that are med tech, the other ones are, etcetera, the tools are the same. I mean, more or less the same, the customers are gonna get used to basically having these UI is that I'll give you your input the data in and then these emails come out, and then you choose which one and they give you probability you can retrain them and all that stuff. And I think that it's just going to get to a point where we're going to have these product managers who are now responsible of kind of training the Machine Learning Module themselves, you know if it's going to be the product manager, or if it's going to be some other function, where I think it does definitely fit inside the product managers? Grant Well I do is, I think it's because they still need to have what we would call the domain knowledge and in this domain of building products, yeah, AI, at least at least in this phase of the life of AI, where we are today for the foreseeable future. I think the product manager needs to be involved with that. Sure. So. Paul It comes down to intuition, right, somebody has to have like to build that intuition about what a model is relying on when making a judgment. And I think that, you know, with product managers, the closest one really, maybe in bigger organizations, it's the person who's managing analytics and data, but in smaller startup organization, I can definitely see the product manager putting that  Grant Yeah, absolutely. Paul, I really appreciate you taking the time. Here today on this been fascinating conversation. Any last comments you want to share? Paul We have tons of articles that talk about so we're very open source as an organization. So if you want to learn more about this, we have about 70 articles on our website. Just go to BainPublic.com and just click on "Articles" and you could just, you know, self serve and basically improve as a product manager in the AI space. Grant Excellent, fascinating, love, love the conversation, your insight and the vision where you guys are taking this I think you're gonna continue to disrupt everyone. Thanks for joining another episode of ClickAI Radio and until next time, check out BainPublic.com. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

Allen: All right, passive traders, we have a treat in store for you today. Many of you know about the option continuum, which is basically, you know, our levels of breakdown of where you are as an options trader, you start with level one, you don't know anything. And then you get to level 10, maybe if you want to, which is option professional. And basically a professional means that you are so good at trading options, that you are now trading and managing other people's money and you're getting paid for it. Many of you have reached out to us in the past and said, Hey, I want more information on that. And we haven't really put it out there because I am not doing it myself. Right now, as a professional, I don't I'm not measuring anybody else's money. And so, you know, I'm not the best person to talk to about that. But we keep getting people and be like, hey, you know, I want to learn, I want to learn. So one of our members, Paul Ashcraft, has volunteered to join us today. And I want to thank you, Paul, for coming and helping out. A few a couple of months ago, I think in one of our groups, I think it was a passive group, where I had put in there like, Hey, I'm thinking about starting a hedge fund. So I'm thinking about going professional, right? And he reached out and said, hey, you know, I'm already doing it if you want to, if you want to talk and I can answer your question. So we had an amazing conversation, I learned a lot. And I was like, You know what, this would be really helpful for everybody else. So I asked Paul, hey, could you do it again? And we can record it this time? It was like, Yeah, sure, no foul. And so he's here, Paul, thank you. Thank you for being on thank you for taking the time to do this. Paul: Thank you very much. Pleasure. Allen: And you're Paul is a member of our of a lot of our programs. So passive trading formula, the blank check, and now the credit spread mastery as well. So you know, it's good to see that, hey, if you're a money manager, then you're continuously getting learning and learning new things to help out your students, or your clients, I guess. So. Well, tell me, why did you get into management? What was it that drawed you through that? Paul: Well, I sort of got tricked into it. I had a, I'm a CPA by trade, and I had a client who was becoming an NFL player agent. And he trusted me and wanted me to help him manage his people's NFL players money. So I started the licensing process at that time. And so that sort of tricked me into it. So that sort of fell apart. And then he wasn't getting more leads for what he was doing. So I basically continued since then, so Allen: Okay, so were you already trading on your own? Or before that? Or did you learn as you want to? Paul: Yeah, I've been trading, you know, for quite a while. Off and on. So yeah, I've had some experience of trading. Allen: Okay. So you are comfortable, you could do it? Paul: I knew I needed to learn, I do need to learn some more. But yeah, I feel like I could I knew enough about the world to do that. Allen: Okay. And so you are known as what is a RIA, a registered independent advisor? Paul: Right. That's correct. Allen: So that's one of the ways of managing money. What exactly is an RIA? Paul: It's basically a firm that is licensed by the FINRA basically, and you are licensed to where you can manage other people's money. Allen: And all RIAs, are fiduciaries, right? Paul: That's correct. Yeah.  Allen: Right. Because a lot of people don't know the difference between a fiduciary and a non fiduciary. And so a fiduciary, if you don't know you are legally bound to do what's in the best interest of the client. A lot of these other companies that people think about when they're talking about money management, or Wealth Advisors, retirement advisors, all these words that they use, they have no license, or maybe they do have a license, but they're not a fiduciary. So they're not required to do what's best for the client. And so they can sell you a product that they get the highest commission on, even if it's not really a good thing, a good fit for you. So that's why..  Paul: Yeah one of the ways I deal with that fiduciary criteria is basically whatever I do for other people, I do for myself. Allen: Okay. Okay, interesting. So, what does it take to open an RIA? Paul: Well, if you want to legal structure and need, like, I have an LLC got a creative for that. And I have had to pass a serious 65 test, which you'd like an SEC test, and get to come up some kind of agreement you have with your clients that's approved by FINRA to sign them on as clients. Those are the basics you have to do. Allen: Okay, and like how long did it take you to go through all that? Remember? Paul: I'm gonna say, basically of six to nine months. Allen: Okay, and how long have you been? How long have you been an RIA? Paul: Since 2014, so roughly eight years. Allen: Awesome. Yep. Cool. And for those of you, you know, I'm going to repeat it later on, but Paul's business website is Businessadvisors.Pro. So if you ever or if you need a good adviser, you know, please reach out to Paul. And I'll repeat at the end, and we'll put it in the show notes. I just wanted to get that out there. Paul: And that's mainly my CPA website, just so you know. Allen: Very cool. BusinessAdvisors.Pro, there you go.  Paul: And then sort has been done about creating my Wealth Advisors website, because you're so under scrutiny when you were you advertise things, so I just sort of steered away from that a little bit. Allen: Interesting. Okay. So I guess there's certain things you can say and certain things you cannot say. Paul: Basically, anything you put out there to the public, you have to like, monitor it for five years, and they can question you about it anytime. So I just figured one way to get around that is just not to do it. Allen: Okay. So then that leads me to my next question, like, how do you find clients if you're not advertising? Paul: Well, you know, I have CPA clients, probably like half the clients, I have my Wealth Advisors from CPA side. Other thing is like, from friends, and referrals from other people who use me. Allen: Okay. So it takes time to build all that up?  Paul: Yes, yes. And I'm currently working on more. More advertising. Allen: Okay. All right. So the advertising is possible. It's not it's not like it's restricted. But you have to be careful of what you do and how you do it. Paul: Yes, yes, yeah. Allen: Now, what are your clients looking for? Because, you know, if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, you know, I'm looking to make more money, obviously, but they have so many, so many choices. They can do it themselves, it could go to like, like Fidelity and have them do it. They could go to they're really rich, they can have their own private like, you know, Bank of America, has their own private wealth, people. So when they come to you, what do they tell you? Like? What are they looking for in terms of an advisor? Paul: Well, I mean, I had someone recently come to me, and, you know, we're signing them up, or things that I'd say we, if we look, if we're here a year later, what do you want to what your criteria are saying, I did a good job. And he wanted a 10% return, which has been difficult in this market. But that's, that's one thing. Another thing? I you know, most advisors out there, these basically are, they're buying hold people, I mean, and they bid six things in a bucket, and don't look at it too often. So I, I basically say that I'm actively working in their account, and I'm not sure I'm going to just put it there and not be looking at it. Allen: So obviously, you probably tell them about your options experience and the different types of strategies you use. Paul: Yeah, a lot of times just the casual person warnings on the manager money that, that if I tried to tell them all that it would go way over their head. Because, you know, it took me like two years talking about options to actually start doing it myself, you know, so I'm trying to be a little bit of conscientious about what they can and cannot handle information wise. I'll be glad to talk about it, they want to, but I'm not gonna write too much about it. Allen: And I bet that would that would set you apart, right? You know, it's like, hey, you know, we can do plain vanilla stuff. Or we can do if you're a little bit more aggressive than we can do this, and this and this. And then if it goes over there, that's fine. But as long as they're like, whoa, this guy knows. Paul: Yeah, definitely. That's certainly part because like, my CPA, well, I deal with investment advisors. And like, no one, no one that I know of is actually managing costs. I mean, like, you know, every week or things like that, Allen: yeah, yeah, they just don't I mean, part of it is they have, depending on where they are some of these guys that I know, they have broker dealers, and the broker basically tells them what they can do and what they can't do. And trading is like, No, you're not doing it. They just they can't, they're not allowed. And so, you know, we get we get clients that are financial advisors, they come in, they're like, oh, yeah, I'm a financial advisor, like, oh, they shouldn't, you know, all this stuff. And they're like, oh, I don't do any of this for my son. I don't know, they don't even teach us this stuff. In financial advisors. Cool. So it's like, once I call again, I'm like, Oh, my God. Paul: Yeah, most of them are just like, call themselves people. And it is this, they don't necessarily know that much about investing. It's more about they have relationships with people, and they train their people to be accustomed to five to 7% returns. So so don't want you to do that as that's, you know, not a hallmark. Allen: Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, when I go to if I go to a dinner party, or whatever, and, you know, always comes up. So what do you do? It's like, well, I teach people how to do this. And the first they're like, really, is that, you know, what do you what do you mean? And then we tell them a little bit about it, and they go, Yeah, you know, we try to aim, you know, for 5% a month, and they're like, what a month. Really? Oh, wow, I gotta learn about that. And then, you know, you explain a little bit and then they're, like, bored and then they go talk to somebody else. Because, you know, it's cool. They want, they want it. They just want to do the work. So that's cool. Now as an advisor, how do you How do you charge? Like, what do you charge? How do you do it? Paul: So I have what's called a serious 65 license. So I'm able to charge a percentage of what assets are under management. Okay, so the basic generic, charged with as generally 1% of assets under management. Okay, that if I'm doing more as a some different strategies, things like that, I'm probably going to up the field more because it's, it is active trading. Allen: It takes more time. Yeah, yeah. Because I remember way back when I had a guy at America ice, and he was my advisor. And yeah, he would charge a minimum of 1% on assets every year. Every time you put money, you gave him money, they would take 5% off the top. And then every every mutual fund and every index fund or whatever that they put you in. And most of them were, you know, Ameriprise products. Each of those things would have a separate fee every year. So I mean, I got dealing left and right. I didn't know what I was doing. At the time, I was thinking I am going to you know, I'm smart. I got an advisor. But yeah, he was the one getting rich. And so.. Paul: They made that money, whether they go down or go up it. Allen: Yeah, I mean, they take the money right up front, 5% off the top. As soon as you make a deposit, it's like, man, you haven't done anything. Even if I turn around and ask for the money back, I just love fibers. Do you have like a lot of Is There a lot of overhead for being a advisor? You need a large staff? Paul: Right now, it's just me. And so I'm already have all my setup for my CPA business. So there's not really that much more to do.  Allen: And you can run it from the same location. Yes, yes. Okay. So then who does the like the backend stuff, you know, statements, and compliance audits, all that stuff. Paul: So we use Interactive Brokers as the broker dealer. So they basically, so all my clients have their own account set up with them, and it sort of goes underneath my master account. So so they take care about the then get a statement from there anytime they want to find out what their balances. And if they need to take up money, they can contact them and get the money taken out. So they saw him. So we're doing a lot of the back office stuff. Allen: Awesome. So you really don't have to do anything. And they they opened the account themselves, the client opens the account themselves, they deposit the money themselves, they can take it out whenever they want, they can go and log in, see all the trades, see whatever is there. So you really don't have a lot of customer service issues. And so you don't have to send send out statements, because Interactive Brokers will do that. Right. Paul: And one of my strategies is if someone is, I call it high maintenance, then I probably can't handle that, you know, they probably need to find someone else because, you know, I got enough things to do is it is. Allen: Awesome, cool. And then. So you don't handle any of the money either. Because they just go straight to interactive. So you're like a hands off, okay, I'll do the trades, but I'm not touching your money. So you don't have to worry about me taking your money and running away and flying to Bermuda or something.  Paul: Yeah, just like the Bernie Madoff deal where he was. He they call it having custody of the funds, and he had custody. And so they, they talked about that when you're going through your testing and things like that, about having custody and not having custody and things like that. So yeah, it's a big red flag. Allen: Yeah. Because I mean, like, I've been looking into starting my own hedge fund, you know, using the the passive trading strategies and such. And I looked at RIA first and then I looked at, you know, hedge fund as another way, and I think from what I've been able to find so far is that if you start a hedge fund, and you don't charge any management fees, you don't need the license, you can set it up in a way where you know, you get you only take a percentage of the profit. So if there's a gain, you can get a percent, but you don't get that yearly management fee. If you want the yearly management fee, then you do have to separate a separate Ria, to do the management of the fund. Okay, I didn't know that. Yeah, so I thought that was pretty cool. So we've been looking at that as well, different things. So now, what percentage of your management is active? versus, you know, index funds, mutual funds, etc? Paul: I'd say about half. Allen: Okay, and all of the clients are okay with that, or do you do client by client? Paul: I pretty much put everybody under the same model. Yeah. So Allen: And so with interactive, how does that work, you have to go into each account to put a trade on or you just put one trade on and it just trickles.. Paul: There's a master account and I can set up different  classification. So I could I could buy 1000 shares of IBM and have it spread it putting all the accounts did that.  So they have to watch out for is some of the accounts can trade certain things, some can't, like RIAs cannot do you know, futures and naked options and things like that as far as, at least on the credit side. Allen: Okay. All right. So can does that get confusing? If you want if you want like, Okay, I want like a say IBM, I want my IBM stock to be 5% of all of my everybody's portfolio. Paul: Yeah, that would be a different the different equation. So basically, like I did a trade today where I figured, you know, want to take a $10,000 risk. So divided by what that option was going for. And I bought that many contracts to take on that kind of risk. So not necessarily rebalancing everyone is usually trade by trade. So putting on a certain set of circumstances, set a step stop loss and things like that. Allen: Okay, cool. So you can do it as easy or as simple as you want. Or you can make it as complicated as you want. Yeah, up to you. Yeah. Nice. So what types of what types of trades do you do? Paul: Well, some of what you teach. So I do some swing trading. And of course, you know, credit spreads and things like that. And some, you know, some some of the dividend paying stocks and covered calls and things like that. Allen: And do you do any any oil futures options? Paul: Well, I'm not. I'm just at the point to get licensed for that. Allen: It's a separate license? Paul: That's as a separate license. Yes. So you have to you have to get licensed through the, Chicago Board of Trade, the NFA and National Futures Association. Allen: Okay. Okay. And then will you be able to do it the same as everything else through Interactive Brokers? Paul: Yes, I think so. Sometimes you don't know to actually do it. So I think it's pretty similar. Allen: Sweet. Okay. Now, as a as an RIA, do you also advise your clients on other alternative investments, you know, real estate, crypto anything else? Or is it just stocks, bonds, options? Paul: I'm always getting to ask questions, you know, because I'm in, you know, really, I'm gonna CPA world or the IRA world, I'm getting asked questions. So I will advise on that if I think I have a good opinion. You know, I'm not roll up on that rolled up on crypto Allen: Right, right. Are you still bound by the same fiduciary type rules on that or?  Paul: You could come under some scrutiny. You know, you'd like an offsetting handed comment, and then someone does something crazy. And so you got to be a little careful. Allen: Yeah. All right. And okay, so him now with the interactive account, or the broker dealer, is the software any different? Like, versus if you open a regular account by yourself? Is there anything you have to learn a new platform? Or is it basically the same thing?  Paul: It's pretty much the same platform, you just have to understand how to do the trading, like I was telling you about, like, allocating between all the accounts, but the platform itself is basically the same. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Allen: What do you see as the future of money management, because like, you know, they got these robo advisors now, and they got like Robin Hood, trying to get everybody to trade on their own. And so what do you see down the pike? You know, do you see like, your clients are like, yeah, rather just have you do it? Or are robots or whatever? Paul: Yeah, I can see, you know, some of the robot picking up. But on average, most people out there don't know, hardly anything about the investing world. My average client, so I think it's going to be still a good field you know, way up currently doing it. Allen: Okay, and who is like your average client? Paul: They're probably like 50 years old, that did 60. And probably, you know, got assets anywhere from, you know, 50 to 50,000 to over a million dollars, you know? Allen: And do you have any limits on who can invest with you? And how much? Paul: No, I mean, like, I'm not, I'm just gonna take on any account right now. It would need to be over a certain dollar amount for me to I just always have to keep that in mind about, you know, do I want to take on a five or $10,000 account? Because it's gonna be extra work. Taking that versus the capital issue at-- You don't have to be you don't have to comply with the day trading rules. You know, because because if you if you accidentally in and out three, three trades in a week, then your account gets shut down. You know, so you have to deal with that. So yeah, so I'm trying to gradually move up from like a minimum of 25,000 to 50,000, 200,000. Allen: Okay. And then you also have a certain criteria like a certain person that you want right? Certain somebody they can handle the options and that Intertek can handle that because I mean, it does swing a little bit. So if they have a 5,000 to $10,000 account, they freak out if they lose $1,000, obviously, that's not the right person for you anyway. Paul: Right. But on that same note, I had a client the other day that, you know, they have, you know, an excess a half million dollars with me. And they want to know how they could put in more money since this market was down so they could capture, capture that now mark? I love that kind of client. expecting them to call you and tell you, why is my account down? Actually, that question is dead. They're saying, How can we put more money in?  Allen: Yeah, that's a smart, that's a Smart Client. So that's, that's got to be your email, you know, going out, like, Hey, he's trying to give me more now. double down on your investments. Okay. Now, How has being a money manager improved your own trading? Or hasn't? Paul: Well, I mean, it's made me to seek out new avenues of investing. You know, because I'm looking out for my clients. By the same token, when I do that, I find things that I can use to, you know, like, I don't know, if I would have found the old future options without that, you know, seeking out new new investment strategies, you know, so I could do a better job for my clients. Allen: Okay. Now, we've had a lot of volatility lately. And you've, you've alluded to it already. When stocks down about 20% or so right now, how do you deal with the investor concerns or expectations? Paul: I'm continually learning that. The more, the more proactive you can be with that, I find that it's better. Like, if you have a bad day or a bad trade that, you know, that affects it so much, and then maybe call and talk to them about it versus waiting for them to call you later, and they get their quarterly statements. And they call you know? Allen: Right. So do you find that a large portion of your job is just talking to people and just calming them down? Or explaining certain things to them? Or educating them? Paul: In the beginning? Yes. If someone's with you for a while, and they haven't gotten, understood your ways, and why you do what you do. And it would be generally in the first year of a client relationship, you indeed do that more, but there is sort of they get to know you, you you get to know them and sort of like a training curve there. Allen: And now, most of your clients, are they either they know you or they were referred to you. Right. So there's always there's already that trust built in from the beginning. Most of them yes, yeah. So if you, you know, advertising, somebody comes in cold, they're like, oh, yeah, I like what you're doing here. You know, here's $100,000, there's gonna be a lot more back. Paul: Yeah. Allen: Okay. So how are you handling? How are you handling the volatility? Like when somebody calls up and says, Oh, my count is down. How do you? What do you do there? Paul: Well, number one, what I did when I saw when I saw the market starting to tank, I basically, was going more into cash. So like, I the client won't know why we aren't investing. I said, Well, I'm waiting for the market to give me indication has, it's found the bottom or, you know, it is headed back up. So I don't want to, I'm not a bottom picker. But I don't want to like, write it further down. You know. So that's one way of dealing with it. And they seem to appreciate that quite a bit and understand that. So I don't think that's something you get out of a typical advisor. Allen: So yeah, but what if somebody calls you and says, Oh, my God, you know, I'm down 10%? What am I going to do? I can't handle this. How do you handle that? Have you ever had that happen? Paul: Yeah. I tried to change up their strategies a little bit to get them a little more solid, or maybe not trade as much in their account. Just being a little more cautious. Allen: Okay, so Okay, so you can actually choose, like, let's say, we talked about that IBM thing. So if you're like, Hey, I'm buying IBM, you could choose and say, okay, don't put it in this account in this account, just because in all these other ones,. Yeah. All right. So you can actually tailor it because like, if somebody goes, Yeah, I just want to be long stocks, or I just want tech stocks. And I just want you know, credit spreads. So they you can, you can do that. Yeah, okay. Yep. So, do you have any shortcuts that you can share? You know, for somebody that's thinking, hey, you know, this sounds like cool, I'm gonna I'm gonna get into this. RIA business, anything that you probably didn't know, ahead of time that you would have liked to have known? Paul: This is sort of like a unknown territory. Because, I mean, when I was doing it, I couldn't get anybody to actually figure it out what like a serious 65 license would do. And I was sort of going into blindly a little bit. So I mean, I think the number one thing is maybe you know, then contact me. Shortcuts is, you know, I don't know like I had to find a place to take the take the course for that. And then I hired a guy to tutor me some. And, you know, there's, there's these firms out there wanting you to sign up with them for them to do oh, you know, like your paperwork and so forth. And I just sort of like fumbled my way through it and plagiarized another agreement online affected us. And so another thing is to know if you're in this world, you will get audited. Personally. Well, the your investment firm, right, yeah. Yeah. Like I'm in the CPA world, and I probably will never get out a different CPA world. But the investment side, I will get audited probably time and time again. So far, it's only been once one step Florida, but yeah, Allen: okay. Yeah. I mean, that's a good thing. I guess, you know, that, that the advisors and like you said, you know, the Bernie Madoff, he keeps him at bay as much as he can a little bit. So some of that, I guess, from a consumer standpoint, and that's a good thing to hear. Paul: Yeah, but a lot of a lot of us, they don't necessarily understand the world as much as you do. And it's more like them checking a box somewhere in a city. They ask this question, or I did that, but they don't really find that don't really necessarily know exactly what they're doing, you know, Allen: Yeah. So but do you mean tax audited or audited by like the audit by Paul: the state by the financial regulatory people for the state you're in Allen: The state regulatory? Okay, so every state has their own regulatory stuff that you have so far. Paul: Yeah. So just just sort of background here. Usually, as you're managing under $100 million, you're managed by the state. But then once you hit $100 million in the SEC is basically is going to your watchdog, it's gonna look over your shoulder. Allen: Okay. All right. Cool. And you're in Florida, right? Correct. But you can take clients from anywhere? Paul: I can. But different states have different rules, most of them allow you to take five to 15 clients, and not really be registered with them. But then once you hit over that threshold, they want you to fully registered with them. But there are a few states that require you if you get one client, they want you to be registered. And Louisiana was one of those states. Allen: So I guess, depending on how much capital the guy is gonna give you whether it's worth it to register there.. Paul: Exactly, exactly, yeah. Okay. All right. Allen: So would you knowing what you know, now, are you happy that you went this route? Paul: Ask me again, in a few years. Allen: Well, you've been doing already for like, eight years. So kind of got some kind of track record here. Paul: Yeah, it's been, you know, it's been definitely a learning curve, you know, from the regulatory side. And then from the investment side, too, so? Yes, I'm glad I did it. But it' had its rough moments. Allen: Well, give me an example. Paul: Well if you if you lose on a trade, you know, it can affect your account and other people's account. So that's probably the biggest things that has happened to me, you know? And then you got to figure out how am I gonna tell this person this?  Allen: Yeah. So how did you how did you deal with that? Paul: I prayed a lot. Basically, if I knew the fact that someone so much, I would, I call them and talk to him about it. But in a certain situation, like, because it was spread over so many accounts, it didn't really affect anyone that much. It wasn't that big of a deal. Like, you know, if I'm managing $5 million of money, and I lose 20,000, you know, the most Someone's probably gonna lose is maybe 2 or 3000. So the overall number is a big number. But you know, we spread between all the counts, it's not that big of a number. Allen: Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's that thing, right? There is like, the biggest thing that's kept me out of it for all these years, you know, people have been asking me from the beginning, okay, can you take my money? I'm like, nope, nope, because I don't know how I'm gonna handle the stress. I don't know if, um, we will sleep, I can lose my own money, you know, market down 20% Okay, whatever, it'll go back up, I got time, you know, but somebody else if I lose your money, and I don't know, I don't know how I'm gonna handle it. And so that's the one thing that that's really caused me to be hesitant up till now. And I agree what you said about not having that much information out there. You know, I mean, there are companies out there that will like if you want to be in RIA you type in how to be an RIA and there's a company that hey, you if you give us like 30 grand, you know, we'll do all the paperwork and we'll file everything for you. So you Okay, but what do I actually get? You know, they're like well you do the paperwork. Well what about after that? How do I get clients how do I do this how to do that they will help you at all and these two guys they had approached, they had talked that a because I'm you know Option Genius is in what's called the financial publishing space that world, so we have our own little conventions and all the Guru's come and hang out and talk marketing and stuff. And so there was there was these two guys who were speakers, and they were telling all of the financial publishers that hey, you guys need to get into the into the management business, because you guys already have all these clients? They already trust you? You know, and they probably have a lot of money because people coming to me, you know, they say, Hey, I want to learn how to trade options. Okay, cool, you know, and how large is your account? They're like, Oh, 50,000. Okay, cool. And they trading options with 50,000. But they also have like, maybe a million dollar IRA, that they're not touching, or their wife has $500,000 that is with some other financial advisor that she doesn't want her husband to touch with options. So it's like, yeah, everybody that comes in has a lot more money. So if you started an IRA or an advisor, then you know, they'll give you that money as well. And you can make all this money. And I was like, Okay, that's interesting. But, you know, what are the legalities and all that and they wanted, I don't know, obtain $1,000 plus a percentage of the company to actually teach me all this stuff. And I'm finding a there's a lot of secrecy, as you can say, you know, and Wall Street, I think puts it like that on purpose. Because they don't want everybody to know what they're doing and what they that they don't know what they're doing. Pretty much. So cool. Paul: I don't know, that's intentional, but it just got I think there's so few people who are looking to do it. And like, it's not a widespread throughout the population thing. So you don't find as much about it, you know. Allen: Maybe okay, yeah, I'll take that. Yeah. Because like, you know, even like, what is the difference between an RIA and a hedge fund? You know, I've been beating my head, like, which one? Which way? Do we go? Which way? Do we go? If we go this way? Or this? Or what are the pros? What are the cons, and there's like, no one person that can that can tell me, if you want to go to a hedge fund, they got a little hedge fund world, and, you know, you got to you got to pay the dues to get in. If you want the RA world, then it's more common, but it's, it's for the guys, you know, for people who are like, Yeah, you know, I just want to put everybody's money in an index fund, you know, so it's like, what you're doing is totally different, like, I have not met any advisors that are actually, you know, trading that actively for people. So I mean, compared to the other guy, Joe Schmo that charges 1% a year, or 2% a year, just to put their money in an index fund compared to what you're doing, you know, your value is just so much more. But it does seem like it's very similar to a hedge fund where, you know, a hedge fund is a little bit different, where all the money is pooled into one spot. And then, you know, the, the trader controls it, you're doing kind of similar, where you can look at it and be like, Okay, I got, you know, $10 million under management, how am I going to split that up into different trades? And it just happens to be in different people's accounts? So have you ever thought about increasing your rates because like a hedge fund, they can charge a percentage of the gains? An RIA can't? Can they do that? Paul: They can do that on their certains particulars criteria? I think like you have to have an investor who's has at least $2 million in investable assets. They have at least $1 million invested with you. And then you can have certain arrangements where you say, Well, if I make whatever percentage I'll make about what the s&p does, you'll split it with me, or something like that, you know? Okay, so again, it's very, it's has a lot of criteria to it can't be done, though. Okay. Yeah. Because I wouldn't say the hedge fund world is based on what you're telling me is, cuz you're basically commingling all the funds. Right? So you got to do like a statement for each person or something. Yeah. And so I think the advantage is, you can just commingle it all and then do whatever you need to do. And then at the end of the day, you somehow allocated? Allen: Right, so the thing with the hedge fund is that all the investors have to be accredited. Okay, so accredited, as you know, probably, you know, you basically you have a million dollar net worth not putting your house, or you're making upwards of 300,000 a year. So, you know, basically, so at least Paul: They have to tell you, they're accredited. Right? Allen: I think we would actually want them to be proof, you know, give me proof otherwise, we're not letting you in. Paul: That was actually in so my testing I just did is like, yeah, you want this criteria? But are you actually gonna go go check it? No. So Allen: Interesting. Okay. Because I mean, you know, the government says that the hedge funds, you know, if you're an accredited investor, you should be smarter than the average bear. And so, if you lose money, it's not that big a deal. Like you are smart enough to get into it. You know, somebody with $5,000 or $10,000. That's my life savings. No, sorry, you can't invest in this. Even though the hedge fund might be like doing 1,000,000% a year, you can't invest because you're not accredited. Ras can take basically everybody, so that was one of the things okay, somebody comes in with 50,000 as an RIA, you might just take it because it's not that much paperwork. It's not extra for you. But for a hedge fund. Yeah, no, I can't do it. Because I gotta, I gotta pay the auditing company. I gotta pay the statement company. I got to pay the customer. You know, whoever's doing customer service and answering the phone and doing all that, and salespeople and all that. So 50,000 is not going to cut it, you know, the limit is a lot higher. For sure. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, that, in that sense, totally different world. But very similar from what I'm seeing is that, you know, you're doing probably what we're gonna be doing, you know, similar. Paul: So you probably can't take qualified money like IRAs and things like that. Allen: I think they can. Yeah, yeah, I think they can, as long as a person is accredited. And so there's different regulations, 5063 C, or six, C, five, or six D, they'll those tell you, you know, if you can take accredited and non accredited, and then can you advertise or not, I'm still learning all this, it's all different, because like, if you start a Real Estate Fund, different from if you're doing a hedge fund, versus a private equity fund, so some of the rules apply to everything. Some of the rules are just separate. So I'm still learning all that. But I know that the Interactive Brokers, people, they've done webinars in the past with attorneys. So if anybody wants to start a hedge fund, you can still use the Interactive Brokers platform. And they have they actually have a separate portal, I think, for hedge funds. Yeah, I've seen that. You've seen that too? Where you can actually see what other people are doing. And what are the trades that they're making? Paul: I didn't know about that. I just knew that they had some kind of hedge fund portion of what they're doing. I didn't know exactly what it meant. Allen: Yeah. So So what they said was that, you know, the attorney was like, you know, it'll take several, you know, maybe $30,000, to set up your hedge fund, you can probably do it with a smaller amount, if you want to start an incubator fund, which is like, you know, if you have your own money, and you put in and say $300,000, and you trade it as if it's a fund, and you don't maybe that that paperwork might be like 7000, and you set that up, you treat it as a fun, you build up your track record, and be like, Oh, hey, look, you know, I was trading for six months, I got this, that or not, and then you can start advertising it, and you convert it to a full fund. And then you can say, well, look at my track record, this is what I did. And then people can come in for the full fund. So that was one of the things that they were they were talking about. But so yeah, we were we were looking at an interactive, but the one thing that interacted with their software is a little bit more clunky or less user friendly than some of the most user friendly software. Yeah, it was my personal accounts. Now. So when, do you still trade on on your own on the side? Or is all of your money in the big? Paul: I have some money still in the in the huge fund? And then, you know, I have some I have an account on the side, right? Allen: So that separate account, did that change it all after you got licensed? Because they always, you know, when you open an account, they always ask you, are you licensed? And then they're I don't know why they do that. Is there to change anything on? You're not gonna recall? Paul: Yeah. So, there's, there's occasions where you can link up an account with the master fund, and you can D link the account. So I think at one time I had, it's actually my 401k account for my accounting firm attached to the IRA account, but then I detached it. One of the main reasons was for futures. Okay, because I knew I wasn't qualified to do futures for the whole fun. But I could on a mountain account. Allen: Ah, okay. So you have to keep it separate to do the futures options. Yeah. Until you get licensed by them. And is that like a lengthy process as well? The futures options? License? Yeah. Paul: I took a series three exam back a month or so ago. So I'd studied for two or three months, and again, got a tutor. Yeah. Okay. Allen: All right. How many clients do you have right now? Paul: I'd say about 20-25. Allen: Okay. All right. Cool. And so, from a financial standpoint, has it been worth it? Paul: Yeah, it's been really good. I might, my intention when I know that, you know, once I got into it, my intention was over the years, you know, retirement age, is at my incomes shift for my CPA business or to my investment business. So I could do that, say two hours a day and retirement versus, you know, doing tax seasons and all that. CPA visits. Allen: Okay. Is that still the plan? Yes. Still plan. Awesome. Cool. So yeah, I mean, handling managing millions of dollars of assets in two hours a day. That sounds pretty good to me. Paul: That might be a pipe dream. But that's what I had in mind.  Allen: I think you could do it your own way. You're on your way. Cool. Awesome. So is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think like, oh, yeah, people need to know this. Paul: I could probably sit here and think about a few things. Not on every call. No, no, no, no. I mean, one thing you have to like for instance, a you have to have a like an email account that you Gotta add to retain all your emails for at least like five years. That's one thing to keep in mind. And like I have to send a like a balance sheet and income statement to the state of Florida every year and get someone to notarize it. You have to upload information to the FINRA site at least once a year. And that's where you pay your like on license Louisiana along Florida and things like that. So I pay my fees for those licensing booth vendors website. Allen: And that you had told me that the fee that you charge for management that comes out Interactive Brokers basically pays you every quarter, your fixed asset if I had to build it, right, yeah. Paul: Okay. So, so they do it automatically. But when I got audited, the state wanted me to actually create invoices. So the answer your question is, I'm not sure what the real requirement is. So far, I guess I met that criteria then. So I'm not actually grading him. What's the reporter right now? Okay. Allen: Yeah, I mean, because like, I mentioned, those two consultants that I had talked to, they had told me that I would have to bill everybody invoice, everybody, every quarter. And those people would have to pay me directly. So it wouldn't be taken out of their account, it would be sent directly to me that they would have to write a check every quarter. And I'm like, that's a pain in the butt. You know, that's pretty cumbersome. Yeah, if a customer has to pay, you know, a big check every quarter for management fees. And then especially if you have a down year, he's like, What am I paying for it? I don't pay for this anymore. And you don't get paid. So I was like, Okay, that's a big red flag. But I'm glad that that's not true. Cool. Okay. Paul: One thing I have figured out there is, like, there's an account I was going to take from someone from one advisors to me, and they had all their fees, like totally hidden with all these mutual funds and things like that. And so like, you know, that account, I was gonna charge 3.3%. But we weren't able to ever get to the bottom of what the other advisor was charging. So, even though they have a lot of disclosures and things like that, I think we could have pressed the issue if we really wanted to. But, um, but you know, I ended up losing that account. Allen: So did that customer realize that, that he's being charged all these things? Paul: No, no, no clue. No, I mean, whenever I sort of parted ways, and I said, you guys at least need to figure out what they're charging you. You'd be surprised at the amount of inept that's out there and people who are actually hiring advisors, like, yeah, most people do not keep like their annual statements. They couldn't tell me how much they made last year. You know, because really, when I'm taking on an account, I want to know, what their track record has been sort of what I would need to beat to make them happy. You know, a lot of them are not that attuned to that. Allen: That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, people, they work their entire lives to save up money and invest it so they can retire. But then they don't pay any attention to the money. Oh, boy.. Paul: I think it's because they don't know that much about it. So they wouldn't know what to do if it was not what they wanted, you know? Allen: Yeah. I mean, you gotta you gotta take a little bit of time to at least read the statements and figure out where's the money going? And it could be better disclosed, you know, the statements could be easier to read that that's definitely sure. That's, yeah. But it is what it is for now. Paul: Like, I have this account right now, I'm probably going pick up another six to nine or 1000. And I asked them to get their annual statements ready. Because I wanted to see what they have been. have been doing, you know, so, you know, so they didn't know if there'll be they'll find those. So let me guess. It's like, it's weird. Allen: Okay, they just like asked her her advisor. Paul: Oh, that might be red flag fight flight to them. And they are looking so yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. seem bizarre. Allen: So if somebody was thinking about starting their own advisory firm, what would you say? They would need in terms of like, what are the minimums, okay, you should have been in the market for, you know, five years, you know, or you got to know XYZ, is there anything that you would say that, you know, if you don't, if you can't even do this, and this is not for you? Paul: Well, they're planning on doing what I'm doing, they probably need at least three to five years, you know, their own market experience. But, you know, that being said, like, I just met with someone the other day, and I could put all my funds through their strategies, and just sit and coast. You know, really, they charge an extra 1% or whatever, so I'll back off of my fee a little bit. You know, so you can you can play the game different ways. Wow. So you could do like I can see a new person and starting that and just have these other you know, because they have what's called sub managers or something like that. I don't know the exact term. Basically, you're hiring other money managers to manage the money you have for your clients. Right, like sub advisors, maybe is what it's called. Okay. So I'm not saying it will totally preclude them that they didn't have three to five years. But, you know, hopefully they're drawing on someone's experience to help hold their handle that Allen: Right. And do you know how much it costs to get it up and running? Paul: I would say three to five grand. Wow, that's not much. I mean, the hardware, these firms are brought in to charge you five times that? Allen: Yeah. Okay. So well, the sub accounts. Yeah, actually, I do remember those consultants talking to me about that. Paul: They they call it sub advisors? Allen: Yeah, I think that's what it is. And it's like, yeah, you know, if you don't want to do it yourself, you can put your money, you can put your your clients money into different buckets, and then they just do it for you, and they charge and then you split the fees or whatever, or something like that. So, and then each broker, each broker dealer has different ones. So like Fidelity or Schwab will have different sub accounts versus what you could put your stuff in. But interesting, I just Just curious the ones that you had talked to what what strategies were they were using, Paul: They're using free cash flow to is their criteria for who they're investing in. So they have like international, they call a cash cow c-o-w. So they've international domestic, and things like that. So they have a different definition of free cash flow. So they're they're fearing that's the best value, their way of determining value out there, like sort of like a value fund, but their own definition of what value is. Allen: Okay, so they're investing in stocks. Paul: Yes, international and domestic.   Allen: And they handle the ins and outs. And so you could put a portion of your client's money in there, you put it all in there. So it's like, it's like an ETF. So basically, you can say I want 20% of my money to go on this domestic one 20% International. And I might, I'm in talks with them. So I might end up doing some more money that way. But so they're coming up with different sample portfolios that I can use their funds for. Allen: Okay, interesting. And so that must be a much larger company. Paul: Yeah, I'm not sure how big they are. But they're, you know, big enough to where they had like a representative here in central Florida and some of their back office helping them out. Awesome. I'm not sure their size yet. Allen: Yeah. So I mean, this rabbit hole is pretty big. You can dive in there and spend a lot of time figuring all this stuff out. Paul: Yeah, yeah. So I can see a way I could sit and close more. But you're only doing it two hours a day anyway. Allen: Cool. All right. Paul: Well, maybe we're gonna get into my retirement years, a certain amount of years. I'll just put it there and just coast. The zero hours a day. Yep. Allen: Yeah, my, my neighbor in the office next door, he's a financial adviser. He's been doing it for, I think, 25 years now. So he's built up, you know, a sizable clientele. And so now he's at the point where he wants to retire. But he doesn't know what to do with the firm. He's like, you know, he makes probably a good 500,000 a year income from it. And he's like, I want one of my kids to take over. But the kids are not really willing, and not interested. He's like, I don't know what to do. So he's still there.  So there's been periods of times or, you know, like, I sit on the CPA world deal with other investment advisors, where it's been a quite a lucrative market to get bought your practice bought out by bigger, let's say Merrill Lynch or something like that, you know, they pay some pretty big bucks to buy those books of business. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, one of the things that the consultants told me is that once you get you get a client, that turnover, meaning the fact that they're going to leave you is not very high, they're gonna stay with you for years and years. So you can count on that money coming in, you know, that fee money coming in for a long period of time, unless you unless you totally screw it up, and then they're gonna leave. Paul: If you play the play smart. You know, if you're dealing with someone 50 years old, right now, you know, another 10 or 20 years, you're gonna pick up their kids and things like that when they need investment advice and stuff. It's, it'd be a self perpetuating thing. Allen: Yeah, yeah. And I do like the fact that there's always going to be somebody there willing to buy you, your company. You know, because a lot of times in smaller companies if you're the only person or if you got one or two employees, nobody really wants to buy the company even if it's successful. Nobody wants to buy it because they would without you there they're basically buying a job for themselves, right? It's not running on its own you're the one doing all the work in this case. Yeah, you're the one doing all the work but they don't need you. They can just, you know, have their own advisors take over. So you still get a pretty decent multiple when you sell so that's really cool too. Right? Paul: Also, I met a.. in my travels on this world. I've met the company and actually finance you if you want to buy on someone else's practice in the financial visor word world. Allen: Hmm.. So have you looked into that? Paul: I had a conversation or two with them, but I haven't really pursued it further. Yeah. Because I didn't know if I wanted to buy a larger practice. Right? Yeah. Because generally, that is a seven year payout to do that. So, you know, seven years, you'd be free and clear. Allen: That'll be interesting. Yeah. So a lot of ways to skin this cat. So you would I mean, I'm assuming that if anybody asked you, Hey, should I do this? Probably the answer is yes. Paul: Yeah, I mean, just mean, talk to people who have done it, and sort of figure out if it's a good fit for you, you know? Yeah. It's definitely can be pretty lucrative. Allen: Right? And I like the fact that it's like, for you at least it's more localized, you know, so you're not competing with somebody in California or Canada, or whatever. It's like, yeah, you guys get your clients over there. I'll have my clients over here. You know, they love me, they trust me. We hang out maybe. And sometimes. So it's not like a competitive situation. So, right. Awesome. Are you in any? Are there any, like, associations or memberships for advisors?  Paul: No, I'm not. Allen: No, but obviously, they probably have them? Paul: Yeah, I'm just not familiar. Very familiar with that. I have another advisor to hang out with suddenly sort of share some ideas. That's, that's all I have right now. Allen: And they're also private. Like on their own? Paul: Now, one of the reasons I didn't cover this in the beginning, like when I started looking into this whole thing, I didn't want to get clients and then share my fees with other people. That's why I didn't latch on to a bigger firm and start building my clients from there. So that's why I started my own Ra. So they will be my clients. And I get all the fees for them. And no one else had had rights to him. So that's, that's one of the reasons I did the way I did it. Allen: Okay. Okay. So what would be the benefits of going with a larger firm just to name recognition? Paul: Well, they have, one of the biggest things is called compliance. So like, right now, I'm my own compliance officer for my firm, okay, and larger firm like that they have whole departments that take care of compliance, for you to make sure you don't get in trouble, the regulators and so forth. So, like this other advisor, I had, he joined another firm, just so you could have that compliance piece to it. But in his firm, he can't trade options. Right? Allen: Because they're very limited. Yeah, exactly.  Paul: It's taught me to join his is up, like can't trade options. Allen: Because compliance says no. Paul: It was on the client's officer. Allen: Right. So that's why when you said you were thinking about advertising, it's the risk is on you because you're the compliance officer. So you got to know exactly what can be done and what can't be done. Right. Right. Interesting, cool. Is there anything else because  I'm out of questions. Paul: One of the things, one of the things I tell you, I looked into going with other companies, other inactive brokers when I started, okay, and like Charles Schwab wanted you to have $7 million you're managing before you could go with them. Allen: Whoa, okay. And they're the biggest right right now, I think. Paul: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one reasons with Interactive Brokers, because they didn't have the minimums like that. I didn't really check too much rather than other people. Allen: So and how's your customer service at Interactive Brokers, because they for personal accounts, they don't have a good reputation. Paul: Yeah, they have a separate line, you can call as a professional advisor. So it's, I get pretty quick attention. Usually, you know, it's not it's not perfect, but you know, it's decent. Yeah, but you're happy. Yeah, I'm not saying that. I'm sure other companies have better customer service but you know, for right now, they, you know, I might need to call him a few times, but I get what I needed if I need need to.. Allen: And how are their margins and Commissions? Paul: Commission's are pretty low. I don't have the exact numbers I just know less than like $1 per 100 shares. Allen: And who comes out of the customers account? Obviously. Paul: Each person like when you do a trade display something all the counselee they pick up their own fees. Allen: Cool. All right. Well, thank you Paul. You know, Paul's website is again BusinessAdvisors.Pro. Paul said that he could reach out you know, you guys can reach out to him if you have any questions. And Paul is also in our other memberships are other programs as well past trading formula blank check and credit spread. So if you guys are members of those, you can reach out to him there. You'll find him in the group. And he's been very gracious with his time. So I do want to thank you and And he's very active in the group and you know you've been helping a lot of newer people as well they're so appreciate you there. Interesting place, interesting world and as I dive in I'm probably going to reach out to you more. Paul: Sounds great, I appreciate it.  Allen: Thank you thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon JOIN OUR FREE PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps. Thank you!

Mike: Common-ism [Theme song] Nazi SS UFOsLizards wearing human clothesHinduism's secret codesThese are nazi lies Race and IQ are in genesWarfare keeps the nation cleanWhiteness is an AIDS vaccineThese are nazi lies Hollow earth, white genocideMuslim's rampant femicideShooting suspects named Sam HydeHiter lived and no Jews died Army, navy, and the copsSecret service, special opsThey protect us, not sweatshopsThese are nazi lies Mike: Welcome to another episode of the Nazi Lies podcast. I'm happy to be joined by Rutgers History Professor, Paul Hanebrink, author of the really easy to read book, A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism. The book charts the development of the belief that communism or certain forms of it are instruments of Jewish power and control, from its pre-history and medieval antisemitism and Red Scare propaganda, through his development among proto-fascist and ultimately a Nazi Party, and the legacy of fascist campaigns against Judeo-Bolshevism in former fascist states. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Hanebrink. Paul Hanebrink: Thanks very much for having me, it's a pleasure to be here. Mike: So before I opened your book, I was expecting to hear a story of the fascist myth of Judeo-Bolshevism as told primarily by fascists through to the present day, but that's not the story you tell. Instead, you tell more of a people's history of believing that Judaism and communism in whole or in part are linked and tied to bad things generally. Besides the fact that this is your area of expertise, why did you decide to tell this history? Paul: I'm glad that you picked up on that. I am very much interested in how this myth or this conspiracy theory connects to a whole host of other issues. And I came to it actually when I was in Hungary in the 1990s. I'm a historian of Hungary by training, and I was doing my research for my dissertation, and my dissertation was on Hungarian nationalism and its relationship to Christianity in the 1920s and '30s and '40s. I was really struck by how so many of the different phrases and ideas and, sort of, thinking about Jews and communism which I was reading in my archival sources during the day, were reflected in journalism and in sort of public discussion about the recently vanished communist regime and what that had meant for Hungary and for the Hungarian national society. And I knew also that this was not just a particularly Hungarian issue, that this same kind of conversation, the same kind of debates about the relationship of Jews to communism was going on in other countries across the former Soviet bloc, especially in Poland, especially in Romania. And I knew that it had also been a major factor in Nazi ideology and an issue that kept coming back in strange ways even in German society. So I wanted to try to think about why this idea had such legs, as it were, why it seemed to endure across so many different kinds of regimes, and also try to figure out why it was so ubiquitous if you will, why it could be appearing in so many different places and so many different societies simultaneously. And so the book is an attempt to try to paint a broad canvas in which I could explore the different things that it meant to different people at different times. Mike: Okay. One thing I brought up in book club was that the book almost feels like a military history in the way you tell it, very event- and people-heavy and diachronic across the chapters, but told geographically within the chapters. So talk a little bit about your choice of historiography, because it definitely feels like a careful choice you made in how consistent your style remains throughout. Paul: Yeah. Well, I mean, as I said, one of the things I wanted to do was I wanted to capture the sense that this was a conspiracy theory that was powerful in a lot of places at the same time, and that it didn't radiate out from one place to another, but that it sort of sprang up like mushrooms in a lot of different places in different periods throughout the 20th century. I wanted a broad geographical canvas, and I didn't want to just simply focus on one country or do a kind of comparison between two countries or something like that. So I wanted to sort of figure out a way to tell this as a European story, and to be able to track the different ways in which this conspiracy theory circulated across borders and from one political formation or political group to another and also over time. The other thing that I wanted to focus on with this book in addition to the broad geographical canvas was also the notion that I didn't want a book that was just going to be a lot of different antisemitic texts one after the other, and so I just kind of piled them up in a big heap and kind of read them closely and pulled out all the different symbolisms. I wanted instead, to try to show using carefully chosen examples of people or groups or political parties or moments in history or events to really show how this ideological substance, this conspiracy myth, became something that had meaning and had power for people that shaped the way in which they saw and interpreted what they were doing and what others were doing. And so for that reason, I think, very carefully throughout each chapter, I try to find actors in a way that I could hang the narrative on and that I could sort of develop the analysis by leading with specific kind of concrete, more vivid examples. And that may be perhaps what you picked up on when you were reading it. Mike: Okay, so let's get into it. A lot of people know kind of the rudiments of old-school antisemitism and anti-communism, but not how they co-evolved into the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism. So, how did antisemitism and anti-communism become modern? Paul: Yeah, it's an interesting question. What I wanted to try to think about in the book–and I explore this I think most carefully in the first chapter–is the way in which very old ideas about Jews, specifically about the ways in which Jews, have been used to symbolize in a sense a world turned upside down or illegitimate power or some kind of dystopia. And you can see this particular set of ideas throughout a number of centuries going back into the Middle Ages. So I begin with this, this idea that Jewish power is somehow illegitimate power. And then I look very carefully at the accusations that were circulating in Europe during World War I about Jews in a sense gathering power on the homefront while the true members of the nation were away on the front fighting. And so there was a real concern across Europe about Jewish loyalty and about Jews as being potential subversives or traitors or spies. And that feeds very easily into Jews as revolutionaries. So you have these two things that come together in that sort of end of World War I moment where also the Bolshevik revolution breaks out, and that there's this very old language that is familiar and comfortable to so many people thinking about Jews as eager to sort of accumulate illegitimate power, that's the very old story that reaches back to the Middle Ages, but tied to this very particular moment in European history in which there's concern about Jewish responsibility for the collapse, for example, of empires from Russia to the Austro-Hungarian empire, and the role that they're playing in revolutionary movements and revolutionary politics in so many different places across the European continent at that time. And I think it's the crucible of those two in that moment that really creates the Judeo-Bolshevik myth as a particular form of Jewish conspiracy theory. I'm not saying it's different. I'm saying that there are many different faces and iterations of the myth of a Jewish conspiracy, but that this is a particular one or particular version. And that it does particular ideological things, particular political things for people during the 20th century. Mike: Okay, so if modern anti-Semites and modern anti-communists largely belong to the right, their ideas coalesced into this conspiracy theory of Judeo-Bolshevism. Now you honestly don't spend a large amount of space in the book describing the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism, and there's two things going on in your book. On the one hand, you have the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism which is this theory that there is a secret cabal of Jews who control the world through joint efforts of banking finance and world communist movements that operate to destabilize Western civilization through financial panics and revolutions, so there's that. Then on the other hand there's what you spend more time on, which is the perception that communism or at least its excesses in actual existing communism, is Jewish in origin and operation. Like, it's not necessarily a belief in a conspiracy necessarily so much as a dislike of Jews and the belief that they're inordinately involved in communism. So when antisemitism and anti-communism became modern and intertwined, the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism, this totalizing conspiracy theory started to form. Who were the major players in that and what kinds of influence do they have? Paul: Yeah. I guess there are two things I want to pick up on in your question. The first is that I think you're right that I'm more interested in approaching the question in a particular way. And that is that, you know, a lot of the kind of antisemitic rhetoric and antisemitic ideology from the 20th century, there was this real insistence that you could somehow count the number of Jews who were in communist parties, and you could determine that this was a high number and that therefore Jews were somehow responsible for communism. And so much of the politics around trying to resist that was around kind of factually disproving that. I find it much more interesting to sort of not get drawn into the trap of saying, "Well, it's partly right or partly wrong," but to look instead at the way in which this conspiracy gained momentum, and that it came to seem so self-evidently right and sort of self-evidently commonsensical to so many different groups of people. And that brings me to the second part of your question. It's very interesting especially if you look at this moment right after World War I in the early 1920s across Europe, you find all kinds of different political groups across a wide selection of the political spectrum raising this conspiracy theory and using it to try to make sense of the fact that this massive revolutionary movement had broken out. So you certainly find fascists or perhaps proto-fascists, if you like, in the early 1920s really making this central to their ideology. Certainly you see that in the early Nazi Party but also in a number of the other far-right paramilitary groups that you can see active in different parts of Europe at this time. But also, you know, people who might call more mainstream conservatives, people who are definitely interested in a kind of national consolidation but very distrustful of the tactics of fascists or of national socialists, making use of this also, for example, to talk about threats to national sovereignty or threats to borders or, you know, the fear that Jewish refugees from war-torn parts of Eastern Europe are going to flood across the borders, and when they do, they're going to bring with them a revolutionary infection which is going to cause radicalism to break out at home. You can find it also among religious conservatives who are concerned primarily with the breakdown of moral and social order and who are interested in combating what they see as being the evils or the ills of secular modernism. They also blame Jewish communists for in a sense driving it, but also being a kind of reflection of these deeper secular trends which they strongly oppose. So you can find this language in a lot of different places, and there's, in a sense, kind of different coalitions in different countries that form among groups who disagree about a number of policy issues, but have a certain kind of common shared understanding that Jews and political activism, or left political activism and certainly revolutionary politics are somehow all related. And that somehow particular tension has to be paid to that constellation of threats in order to forestall or to ward off some kind of greater danger or challenge to the national body. Mike: So fascist parties rode the wave of the relative popularity of the Judeo-Bolshevism myth, and it became kind of a guiding philosophy in a way for fascist public policy. So talk about Judeo-Bolshevism in the hands of fascist states. Paul: Here I would fast forward to the late 1930s when you really see Nazi Germany making a pitch for being the most resolute enemy of communism on the European continent. I think one of the things that you can see as the Nazi vision of a new order of Europe comes into focus is that people–and far-right movements and far-right nationalist movements across the continent that see their own place in that and see a kind of shared goals and shared vision–find Judeo-Bolshevism almost a kind of shared language in which they can create common ground for working with or collaborating, if you like, with Nazi power. You can see this in France especially on the far right, just before and after the creation of Vichy and the military defeat of France in 1940. You see the far-right really seeing the Judeo-Bolshevik threat as a kind of glue which will allow them to work together with German power to regenerate France. You can also see this on the Eastern Front after the German army invades the Soviet Union in 1941 in Operation Barbarossa. You can find far-right Ukrainian nationalists, Lithuanian nationalists, Latvian nationalists who see the fight against Jewish communists as being a way to make common cause with Nazi power in the hopes that when the war is over, and as they believe, the Germans win, they will be able to reap the rewards by getting, for example, statehood or some other kind of political power. You see this also amongst some of Nazi Germany's East European allies in the war against the Soviet Union, both Hungary and Romania, although those two states are in bitter opposition over so many things, especially territorial claims. Both of them go to war on the side of Nazi Germany precisely because they believe that after the war is over and after Germany has won, they will get some special dispensation in the peace that follows. They go to war against the Soviet Union in the same belief that it's a crusade against Judeo-Bolshevik threat in the East, and that the war against the Soviet Union has to be fought in this way. And so fascist movements, fascist states, or fascists who would like to have a state in the future, see in the Judeo-Bolshevik threat not only a threat to their own national interest, but also a space of common ground or a space of cooperation which will allow them to work with Nazi power even if they disagree with Nazi ideology on other points, and even if the Nazi vision for Europe doesn't actually pan out for them in the way that they hope. Mike: Okay, so with the collapse of the fascist states came an almost immediate transformation of the public's perception of the Judeo-Bolshevism myth. So the new states that emerged were expected to denounce such prejudices as fascist and hence bad, and publics to varying degrees were expected to comply. So talk about the, shall we call it, 'withdrawal effects' of the collapse of fascist states on their publics? Paul: Yeah, you can see this most vividly in Eastern Europe where the collapse of fascism and the defeat of Nazi Germany is accompanied by the arrival of the Soviet Army and the immediate ambitions to political power of communist parties and communist movements across the region. You can see that communist parties have to struggle to seek legitimacy among people in societies where so many people are very well accustomed to thinking of communism as something alien, and also something Jewish. And so from the very beginning, you see communist parties and communist movements wrestling with the fact that in certain segments of society, there's a kind of association of them with Jewish power. And so they try to navigate this. You can also see it, for example, in the efforts by post-war regimes in transition that are either communist-controlled or on the way to being communist-controlled, who are having trials of war criminals. There are many people, you can see this in Hungary and in Romania, who look at these trials and you can say, "Well, these are not trials of fascists. This is in fact a kind of Jewish justice or a kind of Jewish revenge." And so they associate the search for or the desire for justice after the war and the desire to punish real criminals with illegitimate Jewish power that has only come into being because of the fact that the Soviet power has placed it there. And so the fact that there's a complete regime change doesn't change the fact that people across the region still have the memory of the legacy of this language that had been baked into all aspects of political life for the preceding two or three decades. And this very much shapes the way in which people see Soviet power, see Soviet takeover, see communist parties, see especially the crimes that Red Army soldiers commit–you know, rapes and seizures of property–are immediately associated in many people's minds as being somehow Jewish crimes. All of this seems plausible because fascist movements and fascist regimes had conspired with the Germans to eliminate Jewish presence from life across Eastern Europe. And now after 1945, survivors of the Holocaust are in public again trying to put together their lives. And so a group of people who had been absent from public space are back in it. And so that only kind of heightens the attention around Jews and around how suddenly the tables seem to have been turned and how the new political regimes that are coming into being are somehow antithetical to the true national interest or the true national identity. Mike: All right. There was also a certain evolution in the West in response to the experience of World War Two and its aftermath regarding Judaism and communism. What did that look like? Paul: Yeah, one of the things I found really interesting, and I did devote a chapter to it because I did find it so curious, is that at the same time that this story that I'm telling you in Eastern Europe was going on, there is this really interesting transformation of the relationship in political discourse of Jews and communism in Western Europe as a result of the Cold War. You can see this most clearly in the kind of ubiquity of the notion of Judeo-Christian civilization as the thing that Cold War liberals are going to protect against Communist aggression. And this very interesting migration of the adjective Judeo from, you know, Judeo-Bolshevism to Judeo-Christian civilization. And you can see this in all aspects of American popular culture and political culture in the '40s and '50s, a willingness to compare using theories of totalitarianism to compare Nazi crimes to Soviet crimes and to present Jews as being victims of both. But also to, you know, really kind of focusing on Jewish communists–there was a lot of focus for example on Ana Pauker in Romania who served as a really important Communist official–as being, you know, Jews who had lost their way and who had lost their sense of religious tradition and religious identity and become completely transformed morally into this almost monster. There are lots of articles about figures like this presenting her as being just something that's called a Stalin in a skirt or something like this. And these figures were then presented as being empowered by communism to attack the moral and religious values on which Western civilization was founded and which the US-led West was going to defend against Soviet expansion and the expansion especially of Communism and communist ideas into the West. I guess a way to bring it back is to say that there's a very interesting way in which this relationship of Jews and communism is completely recoded and reshuffled by Cold War liberals in the 1940s and 1950s to create this kind of very stout, multi-confessional anti-communism that was so prevalent in the US at that time. Mike: All right, so back to the East. So the death of Stalin and subsequent public inquests into his regime revealed excesses that shaped public perception and public policy across the former fascist world. How did the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism play in the post-Stalin world? Paul: You know what's really interesting is that once Stalin dies, there is a rush by Communist Party leaders across Eastern Europe to blame the excesses of Stalinism on somebody or some group in order to present themselves as charting a new way forward that is going to make communism more compatible with the national character, the true sort of national interests, or to create a kind of truly national path to communism. You can see this happening in Poland and Hungary and Romania and other places as well. And one of the ways in which that sort of political strategy works is by demonizing or accusing the most hardline Stalinist leaders who are now discredited for being anti-national or unnational, and for being Jews. And there were a number of figures who were sort of held up as being examples of this. You can see this in Hungary most clearly where the leading figures of the Communist Party in the early 1950s in the Stalinist period were all men of Jewish background. And so the Hungarian Communist regime, without really launching a major antisemitic campaign, let it be known in all sorts of different ways that this new way forward after the death of Stalin, after especially the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, was going to be built around creating a much more truly Hungarian form of communism that will *wink, wink, nod, nod* have many more ethnic Hungarians at the forefront. You can see something very similar going on in a number of different countries, coming most particularly to a head in 1968 in Poland when there is a major campaign against Jews, accusing them of being cosmopolitan, accusing them of being Zionist, as a way of saying that in fact, the Communist regime in Poland is the truly national regime and it truly represents the interests of the Polish nation. And so Jews become the enemy of this true national communism, and the fervor around that leads the vast majority of what remains of the Polish-Jewish community to emigrate in 1968, leaving what is today a very, very tiny community. Mike: Okay. So, eventually the communist states collapse and their economies are restructured along neoliberal lines. How does Judeo-Bolshevism rear its head? Paul: It rears its head, I think, in two ways. The first is in this, again, as a kind of an antithesis or a kind of opposition, you see right-wing nationalists coming to the fore in 1989 very ambitiously trying to create a new right-wing political party, new right-wing political movement in societies where that had been banned for decades. And they set themselves up as being the true spokespeople for the nation in opposition to the Communist regime that went before which they say was an imposition from abroad by forces that were anti-national, completely forgetting the ways in which the communist regimes across Eastern Europe had worked so hard to try to present themselves as national and to try to build up national legitimacy. And in that process, you find right-wing nationalists really very easily slipping into describing the regimes that had gone as being Jewish or inspired by Jews or recalling the role that Jews had played at various moments in it. So you see it coming back in this politics of memory. The other way in which you see it coming back, and it also has to do with historical memory, is the debates about how to understand World War II and the Holocaust. The stakes around that are very high because in the 1990s, as some of your listeners will undoubtedly remember, there was this new focus that continues to this day on Holocaust memory as being a kind of token or sign of a society that had embraced liberal values of human rights and democracy, the idea that you know, if we commemorate the Holocaust or remember the Holocaust, that's a sign that a society is developing towards becoming a mature democracy. And so for that reason there was a lot of intense interest in how the Holocaust should be represented, how it should be remembered, how it should be written about, how it should be talked about. And in a number of different societies across the former Communist East, you have nationalists who are very wary of this European liberal project, who express their wariness as a dissatisfaction with a memory of the war which they say is one-sided and which they say only prefaces the memories of what they would call "others' Jewish memory", and which doesn't pay sufficient attention to the crimes of communists that had been committed against “us,” “us” being the national community without Jews. And in those debates, there's a lot of focus on what role did Jews play in Communist coming to power right after World War II? What role did Jews play in those parts of Eastern Europe where the Soviet Army had turned up in 1939 in Eastern Poland, parts of Romania, for example? And, you know, did they welcome the Soviet Army and did they, at that time, betray the nation? And how should we remember that? So there was a lot of focus in the 1990s, and into today, about how Jews, communism, fascism, and the Holocaust should all be remembered. Some of your listeners might remember or know about the big controversy in Poland around the historian Jan Gross' book, Jedwabne, which had to do with a big, a truly terrible pogrom in which the Jews of this one particular town were killed by their neighbors. At the core of that event was the accusation that they had collaborated with the Soviets when the Soviets were in power between 1939 and 1941. And that that issue became a live one in Poland in the 2000s because it was tied up with these debates about how to remember the past, but also how to imagine the Polish future in Europe going forward. Mike: Okay, and now you take the book to the present day. So how does the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism live with us today? Paul: I think it lives in a number of different ways. The first place that you see it is in what you might call the ideological arsenal of the far-right in a lot of different countries. If you listened to, for example, what the marchers were saying in Charlottesville in 2017, many of them were talking about how Jews will not replace “us,” “us” being White nationalists. They also in a kind of knee-jerk way were going on about how they were opposed to communism, even though I don't think there were any communists anywhere in the area. But nonetheless, they saw communists as being somehow related. You can see this in the number of really horrific shootings of Jews by shooters in this country and elsewhere, where Jews are associated with immigration. There's this accusation that Jewish cosmopolitans are somehow ringleaders or are organizing the migration of other sorts of racial inferiors into the country. And that's a kind of real play and adaptation of something that was central to Nazi ideology. When, you know, Nazi Germany went to war against the Soviet Union, one of their main arguments was that the Soviet Union was controlled by Jews and that Jewish commissars were going to lead armies of racial subhumans or racial inferiors into the heart of Europe. And that the head of this Jewish-led army were going to be millions and millions of different kinds of migrants who were going to swamp Europe. You can see that kind of language being repurposed and repositioned by the far right to fit into immigration debates today. So that's one place: on the far right. The other place where you really see it is the, kind of, reshuffling of the Jewish conspiracy, and I think this is where I would say the book that I've written really tries to focus on how this particular version of the Jewish conspiracy theory or the Jewish conspiracy myth or the myths of Jewish power took a particular form at a particular historical moment in the 20th century. And that with the end of communism, there has been a reshuffling, and so now the face of the Jewish enemy or the great threat is not a Jewish communist like, let's say, Leon Trotsky who figures so prominently in anti-communist ideology throughout the 20th century, but is now someone like George Soros who is anything but a communist, obviously. He is a very wealthy financier, someone who's not only made a lot of money in the financial markets but also is using it to try to promote things like the open society through his nongovernmental organizations. And so you see this idea of an international Jewish plot or an international Jewish conspiracy linked to things like cosmopolitanism, which are anti-national. These themes have been reshuffled, refolded, and repurposed into a now what is the post-communist age. And so in some sense, if the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism is becoming a kind of substance of historical memory, you can see the conspiracy theory that was at the heart of it lives on because it has acquired, in a sense, new clothes. There's new language to talk about it because it's being fit into new scenarios and put to new purposes. Mike: All right. Well, Dr. Hanebrink, thank you so much for coming on the Nazi Lies Podcast to talk about the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism. The book, again, is A Spectre Haunting Europe, out from the Belknap Press which is an imprint of Harvard. Dr. Hanebrink, thank you once again. Paul: Thank you very much for having me, it was a pleasure talking with you. Mike: The Nazi Lies book club meets every week to discuss the books of upcoming guests on the podcast. Come join us on Discord. A subscription to Patreon gets you access starting as low as $2. Thanks for listening. [Theme song]  

Overview Paul is a musician, runs a recycling business and lives with his wife and kids in California. He has spent 5 years tweaking this book to get the right blend of humor and sci-fi goodness. PAUL BAHOU is the author of Sunset Distortion: The Pyramid at the End of the World. He holds a B.A. in Political Science from Cal State University Long Beach with a minor in music. He began his career writing grants while playing in his rock band, eventually moving out of music and into the sustainability sector. He lives in Southern California with his wife Melissa, daughter Sophie and son Harrison. He writes fiction, music and the occasional dad joke in his spare time. His Book https://www.amazon.com/Sunset-Distortion-Pyramid-End-World-ebook/dp/B08T3G8HWB?&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mindarchitect-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=fc1cf6c6464322afb1457754c6d37684&camp=1789&creative=9325 Lazer is an almost made it, middle aged guitarist who plays in an 80'shard rock cover band at a Sunset Strip dive bar. While not quite a rockstar, he plays to a packed house nightly. His blissful inertia is disruptedone night however when he is abducted by aliens and given a strangeimprint on his hand: A key which will send him on an intergalacticjourney in search of an artifact that gives its possessor "infin ite life."With the help of his new friend Streek; A timid floating octopus creaturewith an English accent, Lazer will have to survive encounters withmonsters, robots, alien pirates, inter dimensional brain leeches andmuch more. Will Lazer get back home What does 'infinite life' actuallymean? And why does everybody in space speak English? All answersawait at the pyramid at the end of the world. Website https://paulbahouwrites.com Favorites https://www.amazon.com/Slaughterhouse-Five-Novel-Modern-Library-Novels-ebook/dp/B000SEGHT6?&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mindarchitect-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=171429fae26c2c3d5acf46937bb8e87a&camp=1789&creative=9325 YouTube https://youtu.be/6tDM9tTdMnk Transcript [00:00:44] Stephen: Hello, welcome to episode 1 0 8 discovered. Today I have Paul bow, who he's a, from California, we bonded as musicians. It seems a lot of authors are musicians, which I think is great. [00:01:00] Uh, so he and I had a little discussion about that, but he also is the author of humorous Saifai and, uh, we had a good talk about that. He mentioned, um, Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy. So, you know, it's gotta be good if that was one of his influences. So before we get DePaul again, anybody, if you're listening, if this book sounds good, go pick it up. Go read it, leave a review for it. If you have other books you've grabbed and read, please help those authors out, leave reviews for them. And if you do like the podcast, Like that we get all sorts of new authors, a big variety, have some good talks. Good interviews, please. If you're thinking of podcasting, if you're thinking of doing your own, uh, thing, uh, like this, uh, click on the links, check it out. Uh, the links are affiliate links from the site in the show notes. They don't hurt. [00:02:00] Uh, when you get something, but they helped me out a little bit. If enough people did it, it helps support some of the costs for the show. So before I go any further, why don't we just turn it over and let's talk about. Let's go. Alright, let's go. So Paul, welcome to a discovered word, Smith. How are you doing today? [00:02:19] Paul: Just PG. It's a beautiful day. My son just turned one all as well with the universe. [00:02:24] Stephen: Yeah, that's a good thing. Good fun time. Birthday cake tonight. I take it. [00:02:28] Paul: Yeah. And he doesn't know he's won it just, he still eats random things. He finds on the floor. He doesn't, [00:02:35] Stephen: it'll be fun for you guys. Yeah, that's [00:02:38] Paul: right. [00:02:39] Stephen: Paul, before we get, go and talking about your book,

The Close Shave - (B&B Investigations, #3) The latest case involves one of Donna's old classmates - wed to a mysterious stranger, left destitute... now her life is in danger! Written and produced by Julie Hoverson  Cast List Paul Bette  - Joel Harvey Donna Bella  - Julie Hoverson Goldy Tailor  - Crystal Thomson Captain OftheGuard - Reynaud LeBoeuf Rumplestiltskin  - Philomen Vanderbeck Mrs. Edwina Beard - Rhys TM Mr. Beard - Benjamin Lind Mr. Rexmusson - H. Keith Lyons Mulva - Katharine D. Clark Frederick - Cary Ayers Thug - Danar Hoverson Music by  Somewhere off Jazz Street Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it? Why it's 1940s detective agency... with a twist, can't you tell?" *********************************************** The Close Shave Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] Paul Bette Donna Bella Goldy Tailor Captain OftheGuard Mrs. Edwina Beard Mr. Beard Mr. Rexmusson, Edwina's father Rumplestiltskin thug Frederick, the butler Mulva, the new wife OLIVIA     Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's the office of a private eye, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND     DOOR OPENS GOLDY    B&B Investigations, how may I --[cuts off in disgust]  Sorry.  We don't need no cleaning staff. EDWINA    [very posh sounding, correcting her]  Any cleaning staff. GOLDY    [puzzled] Any cleaning staff, what? EDWINA    [dismissive mutter] I'm surprised you don't rhyme.  [up] I am here to hire a private investigator.  I have heard that this firm is very.... discreet. SOUND    DOOR OPENS GOLDY    Discreet yes.  Cheap no.  You better have-- DONNA    Edwina?  Edwina Rexmusson? EDWINA    [cussing]  Oh, goblins.  [up, false gushy]  Donna!  It's been simply ages! DONNA    What are you doing here?  And what's with the getup? EDWINA    [trying to keep composure] Oh... Donna!  Are you ...here to hire an investigator as well?  DONNA    Um, no.  I... am the investigator. EDWINA    [snooty] Oh? DONNA    [sharp] Dressed like THAT, I wouldn't sneer, sweetheart.  [nicer]  Besides, whatever's wrong, I'm probably the only investigator in town who could truly understand.  Come along.  [to Goldy] Do we have any cocoa? EDWINA    [breaking into tears] Oh!  You remembered! DONNA    [stage whisper]  And a box of tissues.  [to Edwina]  My office is right over here. MUSIC    VOICEOVER DONNA    Edwina was one of those snooty girls I'd gone to school with, back before my family's fortunes fell.  [losing track] Funny.  Failed to figure on fff-- [thinks, sighs] alliteration.  [back]  From what I could recall, though I hadn't really paid attention, she'd dropped out of sight about a year back.  Her current state, dressed in - well let's face it - rags, haggard and undernourished, was shocking.  GOLDY    Flabbergasting, even. DONNA    Shh! PAUL    Do you need me? DONNA    Not yet.  You're still on that breach of contract, aren't you? PAUL    I've just about got it wrapped up.  Found three crickets and a snail that will swear to witnessing the ball retrieval.  [confident] He'll get what's coming to him.  I'll just listen in?  If you don't mind?  Nothing more boring than a stakeout. DONNA    Gotcha.  [clears throat] I waited for Edwina to calm down enough to talk. MUSIC    FADES OUT EDWINA    [blows nose excessively into handkerchief]  DONNA    Try some cocoa.  You'll feel better.  Now take your time and tell me what's wrong. EDWINA    [sips, sighs]  Oh... It's my husband. DONNA    Oh?  I guess I didn't know you were married.  Not that I've been much in society recently. EDWINA    Oh! yes.  Maybe you are the one person who can understand.  My father was absolutely set on my marrying, but I wanted... well... DONNA    A career? EDWINA    No. DONNA    Romance? EDWINA    No. DONNA    A Pony?  What? EDWINA    [painful admission] I just wanted... my own way.  More than anything else, I didn't want to give in and do what father wanted. DONNA    I take it he was not amused? EDWINA    [mirthless laugh]  He kept parading eligible bachelors around, and I... I kept shooting them down.  This one was too fat, that one too thin, that one too hairy-- DONNA    There's something cuddly about "hairy". EDWINA    Oh, don't even go there!!!  Why my husband-- DONNA    Sorry!  EDWINA    So father, exasperated, said I would be married before my birthday, like it or not.  And if I wouldn't take any of the suitable men, I would end up [sniffles] wed to the first man to come to the door.  [sobs, then wails]  Even if he was a pattycake!!! DONNA    What's wrong with--? EDWINA    [wails]  Waaahhhh! DONNA    Yowtch.  And this was last year? EDWINA    [sniffs, then tries to calm] Almost exactly a year ago.  How can I forget?  The day before my 21st birthday, my father tossed me at this.... "person", ran the paperwork through, and threw me out of the house.  Since then... Well, you see how I am. MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    For all her suffering, Edwina was holding up pretty well.  She had gone from pampered princess to long-suffering housewife in one fell swoop.  Had to learn to cook, clean, and even run her husband's little china shop.  She'd been tempered in the fire.  And she used to be nothing BUT temper. GOLDY    There's plenty like that. DONNA    I am ignoring you.  MUSIC     CUTS OUT SUDDENLY EDWINA    Me? DONNA    Sorry.  Nothing.  So what exactly do you need help with?  EDWINA    Oh, that!  Someone is trying to kill me. DONNA    Really? MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    Suddenly a simple domestic case had turned very interesting indeed.  DONNA    Edwina said that on two different occasions, there had been "accidents" that might have killed her, if not for this "strange man".  MUSIC FADES SOUND    IN CAR PAUL    Did she say what he looked like? DONNA    She said he looked vaguely familiar, but had a scarf covering the lower half his face.  PAUL    And these "accidents?" DONNA    Nothing she could take to the cops.  She felt a hand push her on a street corner, and would have gone right out into traffic.  Except... PAUL    Except for this stranger? DONNA    Yes.  He grabbed her and pulled her back.  That was the first time.  She wrote it off, figuring someone just lost their balance. PAUL    But... then? DONNA    Yeah.  She'd just shut up shop for the night, was heading home, and a piano fell on her. PAUL    You're kidding?!? DONNA    Nope.  It was being lifted to an upstairs apartment, and the ropes just... gave way.  PAUL    And the guy? DONNA    Swooped in on a motorcycle and pushed her out of the way. PAUL    At best, he's been following her everywhere.  DONNA    At worst, he's part of it. PAUL    So she wants us to-- DONNA    First, find out who might be trying to kill her.  Second find this guy.  And [sigh] If we find out anything about her husband along the way.... PAUL    [grr]  I hate matrimony cases.  [backpedaling] not that I hate matrimony, though!  [a moment, musing/hinting]  Cuddly? DONNA    What? PAUL    [too quick] Nothing. MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER PAUL    I figured I'd start with a trip to the delivery company, see who might have ordered that piano-- DONNA    Or who inquired about it.  PAUL    Yes.  Was this accident a spur of the moment crime, or something much more sinister? DONNA    I decided to look into who might want Edwina dead, and why.  I had a few contacts at the hall of records who liked nothing better than rooting out such juicy tidbits of gossip. PAUL    What are you thinking? DONNA    There's only a couple of possible motives for murder - money and passion being the best possibilities in this case.  DONNA    And since Edwina's father cut her off without a simolean to her name, there either had to be money she didn't know about-- PAUL    Long lost heirs?  That's a stretch. DONNA    [a bit annoyed] OR it had to do with her husband, the aptly named Mr. Beard. PAUL    First name? DONNA    Apparently they're not that familiar. PAUL    [flabbergasted!] What? MUSIC CUTS OUT SUDDENLY PAUL    Seriously?  She doesn't know his first name? DONNA    He doesn't talk to her much, except to give orders. PAUL    Even... um... when...? DONNA    [hinting] They sleep in separate rooms. PAUL    [stunned] Oh.  Who IS this guy? DONNA    That's what I plan to find out.  Ah!  Hall of records.  My stop. PAUL    Right.  Meet for dinner? DONNA    Of course. MUSIC    VOICEOVER PAUL    I watched her walk away, a red-haired slither of pure lusciousness.  [grr] At least until the car behind me started to honk. SOUND    HONK ENDS VOICEOVER MUSIC SOUND    CAR STARTS SOUND    PHONE RINGS, PICKS UP GOLDY    B&B Investigations, how may I direct-- EDWINA    [on filter] It happened again! GOLDY    What happened? EDWINA    Just tell Donna!  Get her to come to my place.  She has the address.  Quickly! Before my husband gets home! GOLDY    I'll see what I can do. EDWINA    It's a matter of life and death! SOUND    PHONE HANGS UP, IS SET DOWN GOLDY    Hmm.  Now let's see - How do they DO that? MUSIC    FOR VOICEOVER GOLDY    Well, that was easy.  [speaking loudly, as if trying to be noticed]  I was trying desperately to figure out how to get a message to my boss, Donna Bella. DONNA    You don't have to yell! GOLDY    [normal tone] The client called. DONNA    Edwina. GOLDY    We ain't been formally introduced.  Besides, I'm trying to be all professional here. DONNA    OK, just tell me what you got. GOLDY    She needs you over there lickety split. DONNA    Did she actually say--? GOLDY    I'm paraphrasing.  DONNA    Fine.  Now leave the voiceover to me.  [beat]  Ok.  I caught a cab and raced to Edwina's fifth floor walkup.  It was as old and careworn as her dress.  I really started to sympathize.  MUSIC    OUT SOUND    KNOCKING ON THE DOOR EDWINA    [shriek] Who is it? DONNA    It's me! SOUND    HEAVY FOOTSTEP, DOWN THE HALL DONNA    [gasp]  Hello? SOUND    LOTS OF LOCKS UNLOCKING DONNA    [whispered to the door] I'll be right back! EDWINA    No! DONNA    Shh! SOUND    QUIET STEPS MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    I was pretty sure I'd seen movement down around the dimly lit corner.  I'm not usually the physical type - I leave all that to Paul-- PAUL    [distant] [laughing hysterically] DONNA    [grim and determined] --BUT I wanted to at least get a glimpse of whoever it was that was spying on Edwina's door.  MUSIC OUT SOUND    QUICK STEPS DONNA    Hah! SOUND    DOOR SHUTS QUICKLY MUSIC IN DONNA    I rushed up, but the series of locks - a strangely familiar series of locks - was already being thrown.  I waited a moment, then peered through the keyhole, straining for any glimpse of the perpetrator. GOLDY    What did you see? DONNA    Out! MUSIC OUT DONNA    Not you, her! MUSIC IN GOLDY    Fine.  PAUL    What did you see? DONNA    Let me talk to Edwina first. MUSIC OUT SOUND    TAP ON DOOR, DOOR WRENCHED OPEN EDWINA    What happened? DONNA    Nothing.  Thought I heard something. EDWINA    It was probably a mouse.  They're in half the apartments here. DONNA    Can't they get rid of them? EDWINA    [shrug] Not unless they get behind on the rent. MUSIC IN PAUL    Let me take this and give you ladies some privacy. DONNA    Sounds good.  I might be a little late. PAUL    No problem.  [voiceover]  I had had a frustrating day.  The moving company was paid in cash, and the apartment they were delivering to had been rented under a false name.  GOLDY    Back at the office, a pile of official looking papers that Donna had messengered, arrived.  If you're bored or anything. PAUL    I still have leads to follow up. GOLDY    I'm shutting up for the day.  You have fun. PAUL    [sigh]  Some days you wonder why you even need a secretary-- GOLDY    [distant] I heard that! PAUL    [thinking quick] And then you recall how much time you haveta spend away from the office, and it all becomes clear.  [waits a second]  Phew!  She does come in handy.  [narrating]  I walked into the bar where the lowest denizens of the city hung out, and lowest among them-- MUSIC OUT PAUL    Hey, Rump.  RUMPY    Not tonight, Bette.  I got lady trouble. PAUL    Really?  You? RUMPY    You don't have to sound so.... so... PAUL    Sorry. RUMPY    Take it from me, don't ever let one of them find out your real name.  [drinks deep]  So you here for a social call?  PAUL    You know better. SOUND    CLINK OF COINS ON COUNTER PAUL    But I can make it worth your while. RUMPY    I'll drink that in the next 10 minutes. PAUL    Give me something good, and you'll get another half hour's worth. RUMPY    What's the question? PAUL    Mr. Rexmussen and his daughter Edwina.  Anything you know. RUMPY    Off the top of my head?  And drunk?  Nothing.  SOUND    COINS BEING DRAGGED AWAY PAUL    Oh. RUMPY    Except-- SOUND    COINS STOP MOVING PAUL    Go on. RUMPY    I do know that just about a year ago, daddy dearest said he was gonna hitch her to the first dude to come to the door, and there was a virtual stampede to get there - but this mug Beard was already at the head of the line. PAUL    Like he... knew in advance? RUMPY    Could be...  or... [trails off suggestively, drinks] SOUND    TWO MORE COINS SET DOWN RUMPY    More like he kind of appeared out of nowhere.  No one knew him before.  No one knows when he came to town.  Nothing. PAUL    Hmm... SOUND    COUPLE MORE COINS RUMPY    That's all I got.  SOUND    SHOVES COINS RUMPY    Now leave me to my misery. PAUL    Nah.  Keep it.  MUSIC in PAUL    So a Beard with no roots.  But who could have known that Edwina's dad was going to go ballistic? GOLDY    Daddy probably set it all up with the mug.  To teach her a lesson.  Sounds like she was a holy terror. PAUL    I thought you went home. GOLDY     They ain't nothing good on the radio. PAUL    While I could consult an oracle or two about the mysterious Mr. Beard, the price would be a bit too high for a charity case-- GOLDY    What about who might want to kill her? PAUL    I had no leads as yet-- GOLDY    Oh, yes you do. PAUL    I do? GOLDY    These papers - I took em home, just in case someone might come looking. PAUL    Are you really worried about that? GOLDY    Nah.  But they ain't nothing good on the radio.  Anyway, you wanted to know about money motives, and there's some interesting stuff in here. PAUL    This should really be on the phone.  Voiceovers aren't made for conversations. GOLDY    You two do it all the time! PAUL    [abashed] We try not to. GOLDY    Fine.  [ahem] After going through the stack of papers - a thankless task, by the way - I realized that Edwina happened to have a birthday coming up. PAUL    [dismissive] She already mentioned that. GOLDY    AND that this would be her 22nd birthday.  When she would just happen to come into a huge trust fund.  UNLESS she weren't married yet, then she don't get her mitts on the cash til she's 30. PAUL    [interested] Really? GOLDY    UNLESS again - she was to happen to kick off before she made it to 22.  PAUL    Hmm...  Who-- GOLDY    IN WHICH CASE the money would revert to... ta-da!  her father. PAUL    Rexmussen?  But he's rich. GOLDY    Interesting, innit? DONNA    Whew.  I had just spent the longest evening of my life, and-- GOLDY    We're already on this line. DONNA    What? PAUL    But we're pretty much done. DONNA    What? GOLDY    Besides, I'm already clocked out for the evening. DONNA    [growl] what? PAUL    Goldy took the time to sort through all the paperwork we hadn't yet got around to... DONNA    [back to normal] Oh.  Anything? PAUL    Tell you at dinner. DONNA    About time! MUSIC OUT SOUND    RESTAURANT PAUL    --which doesn't make any sense, because he's rolling in dough. DONNA    Nothing in this case makes sense, and we've only got one more day before Edwina's birthday.  PAUL    We better stay with her.  DONNA    I had this little idea... PAUL    Yeah? DONNA    This mystery man appears every time she looks to be in danger, so... PAUL    ["getting it"] Mmm. DONNA    Let skip ahead. PAUL    Get some rest. DONNA    Mwa! PAUL    [appreciative growl] MUSIC IN DONNA    Morning came, and I was back with Edwina.  Her husband hadn't even come home, but had phoned to insist she still open the store as usual.  She was frantic. MUSIC OUT SOUND    STREET, FOOTSTEPS EDWINA    [controlled] Thank you so much for coming with me.  I'm simply frantic. DONNA    Don't worry about it.  We'll get to the bottom of all this. SOUND    RUSHING FEET PAUL    [roar] EDWINA    [scream!] SOUND    SCUFFLE BEARD    [oof!] DONNA    You got him?  Calm down, Eddie! EDWINA    [gasp] What?  Who is it?  Oh!  That's him!  That's the guy! PAUL    Let's get inside.  Come on.  EDWINA    [whisper] Who's that? DONNA    My partner.  He's good people. EDWINA    He's hardly "people", wouldn't you say? DONNA    Don't knock it, sister! SOUND    DOOR SHUTS PAUL    Okay, pal, you better start talking. EDWINA    Don't hurt him!  He's the one who's been saving me! PAUL    [tough sounding]  No one needs to get hurt - but someone DOES need to talk. BEARD    [mutters something] PAUL    What's that? BEARD    [low whisper] Just you.  I'll talk to you.  Not the ladies. PAUL    You all right with that?  We'll catch up. SOUND    SNAP FINGERS MUSIC In SUDDENLY DONNA    Edwina and I went on to the shop, careful to avoid any potentially life threatening situations. MUSIC OUT SOUND    SHOP DOOR, WITH BELL EDWINA    He's not going to hurt him, is he? DONNA    I don't think it will come to that. EDWINA    Good.  I-- I think I'm in love. DONNA    [stunned] What?  With that-- EDWINA    Handsome stranger who keeps saving my life? DONNA    You've got a point.  But what about your husband? EDWINA    I hardly ever see him.  He doesn't care. DONNA    And how do you know this guy is handsome?  His face was all covered in that scarf. EDWINA    [deep excited breath]  Oh!  His piercing eyes!  So mysterious.  T think--  [almost something]  I think he's shy. DONNA    While it's nice to see some color in your cheeks again, I think we need to shelve this until we solve the death-related part of the mystery. EDWINA    [sigh] All right. DONNA    Last night, I asked about the suitors you turned down.  Did you have a chance to make a list? EDWINA    Oh!  I forgot.  So sorry. DONNA    We've got some time now. EDWINA    Oh, all right. Um... There was Bob Porthos-- DONNA    The entrepreneur?  [whistles] EDWINA    He was really fat.  And Fred Crotchety, are you taking these down? DONNA    Mind like a steel trap.  Crotchety? EWINA    Old.  And don't even get me started on King Cole. DONNA    The Merry old - ah! "Old"? EDWINA    [duh!] Pattycake. DONNA    Hmm.  Let me guess, there was something wrong with every single one of them. EDWINA    Pretty much.  And if it wasn't something obvious, like being really short, or having terrible halitosis, I'd just pick on whatever was handy. DONNA    Bet you regret that now. EDWINA    You said it.  I might have spent the last year in the lap of luxury with my old, fat or smelly husband.  [thinks]  Hmm.  I guess I'm actually rather lucky. DONNA    Really? EDWINA    My husband is standoffish and emotionally unavailable, but at least he's not fat, old or smelly. DONNA    [slightly sarcastic] And doesn't talk in rhyme. EDWINA    [the horror!] Heaven forbid!!  SOUND    DOOR SLAMS OPEN DONNA    Paul? THUG    Both of you, hands up! EDWINA    [scream!] THUG    Shut up! EDWINA    [cuts out suddenly with a hiccup] DONNA    Let me guess - you're the next "accident"? THUG    Shut up! DONNA    Why should I listen to you? EDWINA    [hissed] Because he's got a gun! THUG    I see she's the smart one. DONNA    What? THUG    Though you got the looks, babe. DONNA    What? EDWINA    Don't anger the thug! DONNA    Just watch.  WHAT? THUG    Now, lets see...  [muses] an accident... SOUND    HEAVY TIPPING NOISE, CROCKERY GOES EVERYWHERE EDWINA    [quick shriek, muffled] THUG    [telling himself a story] So someone broke in, and-- [sudden surprised gasp of pain] MUSIC IN PAUL    The mystery man had only half satisfied my curiosity when we heard screams from the vicinity of Edwina's pottery shop. THUG    [screams like a girl] MUSIC OUT BEARD    Something's happening! PAUL    [chuckles] They'll be fine.  Finish what you were saying. BEARD    [melodramatic] I'll tell you whatever you want - AFTER we save her! PAUL    [sigh] All right. MUSIC IN PAUL    He had it so bad it was almost cute.  How could I refuse, being a fellow sufferer of that aeons-old disease called love? MUSIC OUT SOUND    DOOR CREAKS OPEN, CRASH OF PLATE DONNA    Hah! PAUL    See? BEARD    [surprised] Oh.  You're all right! EDWINA    Yes! DONNA    This guy-- SOUND    RUSTLE AS SHE KICKS HIM THUG    [groan] DONNA    Broke in.  He won't talk.  [sweetly] I told him my partner is the really scary one. PAUL    Don't worry about it.  I think I know where this is all leading. DONNA    Really? PAUL    Yes.  Shh. EDWINA    [melodramatic, to Beard] It can never be. BEARD    What? EDWINA    I'm... I'm married.  No matter that it wasn't my choice.  It-- BEARD    It's all right. EDWINA    No, it's not!  You keep saving me, and making me love - uh - like - uh - appreciate you.  It's not fair.  To you. BEARD    You wouldn't consider... running off with me? EDWINA    A year ago, I might have said yes.  In a heartbeat.  But I'm not that same shallow girl any more.  I simply can't break a solemn vow.  You should go. DONNA    [sad] Ohhh! PAUL    [reassuring] Shh. EDWINA    Just know this.  I love you! BEARD    I've waited so long to hear you say that. EDWINA    [confused] You ...have? PAUL    [whispered] Now for the big reveal. SOUND    RUSTLE OF FABRIC EDWINA    You! DONNA    Who? PAUL    Guess. DONNA    I don't know anyone with a beard that thick. BEARD    I'm so sorry I had to do it this way, but-- SOUND    THUMP, HISS PAUL    Really?  A grenade?  [grunt of effort] SOUND    HISSING FLIES OFF SOUND    DISTANT EXPLOSION, SHRIEK OF PAIN & SURPRISE PAUL    Now that that's sorted out, I think it's time. DONNA    Time? PAUL    For the big denouement.  And... I think a police presence is in order. DONNA    Where's a phone? EDWINA    What's going on?  BEARD    Don't worry, my darling.  I'll still always protect you. MUSIC IN PAUL    We did a quick gathering of the suspects and arrived at Mr. Rexmussen's sumptuous estates with only half an hour to spare. DONNA    Before what? PAUL    The birthday. GOLDY    I'm the one that caught that! DONNA AND PAUL    Shut up! GOLDY    Hmph.  Keep me posted. PAUL    Rexmussen's estate was a sprawling mass of putting green and ornamental garden, all surrounding a palatial sort of ... palace. DONNA    Evocative. PAUL    I've been studying Old Possum's word a day column in the Times. DONNA    [chuckles] GOLDY    uh-uh-uh!  Conversation! DONNA    Fine!  SOUND    MUSIC OUT SOUND    KNOCKING ON DOOR SOUND    TEENSY WINDOW OPENS BUTLER    Please good folks!  This is not right!  Banging on the door all night! PAUL    [grr] Pattycakes. EDWINA    [Imperious]  Rouse my father, Frederick. BUTLER    The master sleeps, he will not wake.  I beg you now, your leave to take. SOUND    WINDOW SHUTS DONNA    Blast.  If only-- SOUND    POLICE SIRENS BURP, THEN CUT OUT PAUL    [concerned] Ohhh boy. DONNA    Captain Oftheguard!  So glad you came!  Wait - I didn't - did you? PAUL    [grrrr]  No. OFTHEGUARD    Your secretary called, said you're having some kind of ...denouement... at this here address? PAUL    [muttered] She'll never let us live this one down. DONNA    [wheedling] We need to get inside, Bruce, and talk to Edwina's father!  Right now, before there's a murder! OFTHEGUARD    We'll see about that. SOUND    OFFICIAL POUNDING BEARD    No one's going to murder you! EDWINA    Oh, [falters] OH!  [whispers]  You never told me your first name. BEARD    Oh...  uh...  [horrible admission] Van dyke. EDWINA    Really?  I would have pegged you as a garibaldi, or maybe a franz-josef with a side order of Z-Z. BEARD    [surprised] So you know my brothers? SOUND    DOOR OPENS OFTHEGUARD    Hey!  Mother goose.  Get your boss out here.  This is the police. FREDERICK    You needn't speak in such a tone.  My job is to see he's left alone. OFTHEGUARD    hmph.  My job trumps your boss's orders - now let us through your fancy borders. DONNA    Oh, Bruce!  I never knew you were bilingual! PAUL    [growl] Enough!  I'll get us in. SOUND    MUSIC IN PAUL    It wasn't long before we were all sitting in Rexmussen's main sitting room. MUSIC OUT PAUL    So there. EDWINA    Not to be confused with the informal withdrawing room, or the salon. REXMUSSEN    [cold] So nice to have you home again dear. EDWINA    [cold] Papa.  [kiss kiss] OFTHEGUARD    I believe there was a denouement in the offing?  Or are we here for pinochle? REXMUSSUN    A Denouement?  Surely you don't mean--? SOUND    LIGHT FEET ENTER MULVA    [sexy little number] Rex, Honey?  I miss my bunny? EDWINA    [horrified] Papa! REXMUSSUN     [covering, stiff] Go back to bed, Mulva.  We'll talk in the morning. EDWINA    Papa!?  What is ... that?  [disgust] Her? DONNA    That's a whole nother denouement!  Quick, music! SOUND    MUSIC IN, SOUND OF EDWINA AND REXMUSSUN ARGUING UNDER REXMUSSUN    I knew you would never be able to accept-- EDWINA    A pattycake?  Father!  How could you! MULVA    Love is blind to age or youth.  We knew you wouldn't like the truth. REXMUSSUN    You don't need to be here, dearest, to take this abuse. EDWINA    I'm glad mother's dead!  This sort of ...perversion - it would have killed her to know. [now the voiceover] PAUL    Could this have been another motive?  Or part of the answer we already had? DONNA    We knew we had to sort it out quickly, or lose what might be our only chance to resolve this issue. PAUL    The money in the trust goes back to dear old dad if she dies in the next 15 minutes, right? DONNA    I think-- GOLDY    [snide] That's what the papers said.  DONNA    Fine.  Thanx.  What else did they say. GOLDY    Oh, so now you need me-- PAUL    Get on with it!  We're in the denouement! GOLDY    Dad's loaded.  The entire trust wouldn't make pocket change for him. DONNA    And his new wife? GOLDY    Oh, that took a couple of very tricky phone calls.  Seems they went out of state for a nice quiet little ceremony - the day AFTER dear daughter was whisked away to be wed. PAUL    So maybe this had nothing to do with the money at all? DONNA    What are we left with? EVERYONE     GASPS PAUL    That sounds like something.  Quick! SOUND    MUSIC OUT EDWINA    The lights! OFTHEGUARD    Everyone stay where you are.  BEARD    I'm here. SOUND    RUSTLE, THEN FOOTSTEPS PAUL    Was anyone near the lights when they went out? EDWINA    We were a bit...um... involved in a family ... discussion. DONNA    Where are the -- SOUND    GUNSHOT EDWINA    [QUICK scream] BEARD    Oh no! DONNA    Quick!  Paul! SOUND    HEAVY FOOTSTEPS PAUL    [growl] FREDERICK    Off, you beast!  Get off of me!  I'm no prey for such as thee! PAUL    Just for that! [unh!] SOUND    SMACK SOUND    CLICK OF LIGHTS BACK ON OFTHEGUARD    Him!? EDWINA    A servant? REXMUSSUN    Frederick? DONNA    [whispered] Paul?  But why?  Do you think he was paid? PAUL    [muttered] Hmm.  No.  [up]  Oftheguard, I'll hand him over.  OFTHEGUARD    What's the charge?  Or at least the motive? EDWINA    Yes!  What could he possibly get out of killing me?  He's not in any position to inherit. DONNA    No one is - now.  PAUL    Except your husband.  BEARD    I've got plenty of my own, thanks. DONNA    Your birthday came and went 8 minutes ago.  So this attempt ... [quizzical] must be unrelated? PAUL    But something else is.  DONNA    Is what? PAUL    Related.  [sharp] Rexmusson!  This young lady may be your second wife, but I wager she's not the first pattycake that you've... um... DONNA    Played pattycake with? PAUL    I was trying for something a bit more pithy, but yes. REXMUSSON    [warning] I'm a very wealthy and powerful man!  [shrug] And everyone needs a hobby. EDWINA    Papa! MULVA    But now I am your one and only?  You'll never have to be so lonely. REXMUSSON    [not quite convincing] Of course, dear. EDWINA    This is just disgusting.  I don't need to hear any more of this-- PAUL    Just a bit more.  Frederick?  How long have you worked here? EDWINA    He's been here his entire life.  Since we both [getting it] were children... DONNA    Ahhh.  And his mother?  She worked here, too? EDWINA    [revolted] Oh, now I am definitely leaving. BEARD    Hold on a bit longer.  EDWINA    Hold me! DONNA    So you think that he did it out of revenge?  For her being the pampered one and him getting.... a menial job? PAUL    Perhaps he felt that if there were no longer a legitimate heir to the Rexmusson estate, that his father would have to acknowledge him at last. DONNA    That's a huge bucket full of wishful thinking, you do realize that? REXMUSSON    Even if Edwina was killed, and that would never be my wish, dear, even if we don't see eye to eye on some things-- EDWINA    [conciliatory]  Oh, I should hope not. REXMUSSON    There's still going to be more legit heirs.  Right my little pumpkiny-wumpkiny? MULVA    You'll have a little sister soon.  We've counted down to the end of June. EDWINA    [no longer amused] We're leaving.  Now. BEARD    There's no more danger? OFTHEGUARD    Not from this guy, there ain't. BEARD    Good.  [leaving]  Edwina?  Darling? FREDERICK    Ouch!  Ouch!  Stop that, you!  You hurt my-- OFTHEGUARD    [cutting in] Everloving shoe.  I know, I know.  I've heard it all before.  Now - "Come along quiet, you epic fail.  You're taking a little trip to jail." MUSIC IN PAUL    [snort, then annoyed]  Progressive AND bilingual.  How do you compete with that? DONNA    Hmm? PAUL    Nothing.  [clears throat]  So the case was closed, and for once we could say-- DONNA    With a completely straight face-- PAUL    uh...  [whispered] You want to say it? DONNA    [sultry whisper] Let's do it together? PAUL    [grrrrow!]  Count of three, then.  One Two-- PAUL AND DONNA    The butler did it.  [both laugh] PAUL    You would never leave me, um, I mean the agency, I mean, detective work, for a ... a pattycake, wouldja? DONNA    Never fear, oh hairy one / the job, and you, are much more fun. PAUL    [growl!!]  I do love it when she talks foreign!    

00:58 - Paul's Superpower: Participating in Scary Things 02:19 - EventStorming (https://www.eventstorming.com/) * Optimized For Collaboration * Visualizing Processes * Working Together * Sticky (Post-it) Notes (https://www.post-it.com/3M/en_US/post-it/products/~/Post-it-Products/Notes/?N=4327+5927575+3294529207+3294857497&rt=r3) 08:35 - Regulation: Avoiding Overspecifics * “The Happy Path” * Timeboxing * Parking Lot (https://project-management.fandom.com/wiki/Parking_lot) * Inside Pixar (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13302848/#:~:text=This%20documentary%20series%20of%20personal,culture%20of%20Pixar%20Animation%20Studios.) * Democratization * Known Unknowns 15:32 - Facilitation and Knowledge Sharing * Iteration and Refinement * Knowledge Distillation / Knowledge Crunching * Clarifying Terminology: Semantics is Meaning * Embracing & Exposing Fuzziness (Complexities) 24:20 - Key Events * Narrative Shift * Domain-Driven Design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-driven_design) * Shift in Metaphor 34:22 - Collaboration & Teamwork * Perspective * Mitigating Ambiguity 39:29 - Remote EventStorming and Facilitation * Miro (https://miro.com/) * MURAL (https://www.mural.co/) 47:38 - EventStorming vs Event Sourcing (https://martinfowler.com/eaaDev/EventSourcing.html) * Sacrificing Rigor For Collaboration 51:14 - Resources * The EventStorming Handbook (https://leanpub.com/eventstorming_handbook) * Paul's Upcoming Workshops (https://www.virtualgenius.com/events) * @thepaulrayner (https://twitter.com/thepaulrayner) Reflections: Mandy: Eventstorming and its adjacence to Technical Writing. Damien: You can do this on a small and iterative scale. Jess: Shared understanding. Paul: Being aware of the limitations of ideas you can hold in your head. With visualization, you can hold it in more easily and meaningfully. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: MANDY: Welcome to Episode 271 of Greater Than Code. My name is Mandy Moore and I'm here today with a guest, but returning panelist. I'm happy to see Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Mandy. It's great to see you. I'm also excited to be here today with Damien Burke! DAMIEN: And I am excited to be here with both of you and our guest today, Paul Rayner. Paul Rayner is one of the leading practitioners of EventStorming and domain-driven design. He's the author of The EventStorming Handbook, co-author of Behavior-Driven Development with Cucumber, and the founder and chair of the Explore DDD conference. Welcome to the show, Paul. PAUL: Thanks, Damien. Great to be here. DAMIEN: Great to have you. And so you know, you are prepared, you are ready for our first and most famous question here on Greater Than Code? PAUL: I don't know if I'm ready, or prepared, but I can answer it, I think. [laughter] DAMIEN: I know you have prepared, so I don't know if you are prepared. PAUL: Right. DAMIEN: Either way, here it comes. [chuckles] What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? PAUL: Okay. So a couple of weeks ago, there's a lake near my house, and the neighbors organized a polar plunge. They cut a big hole in the ice and everyone lines up and you basically take turns jumping into the water and then swimming to the other side and climbing out the ladder. So my superpower is participating in a polar plunge and I acquired that by participating with my neighbors. There was barbecue, there was a hot tub, and stuff like that there, too. So it was very, very cool. It's maybe not a superpower, though because there were little kids doing this also. So it's not like it was only me doing it. JESSICA: I'll argue that your superpower is participating in scary things because you're also on this podcast today! PAUL: [chuckles] Yeah, there we go. DAMIEN: Yeah, that is very scary. Nobody had to be fished out of the water? No hospital, hypothermia, any of that? PAUL: No, there was none of that. It was actually a really good time. I mean, being in Denver, blue skies, it was actually quite a nice day to jump into frozen. MANDY: So Paul, you're here today to talk about EventStorming. I want to know what your definition of that is, what it is, and why it's a cool topic to be talking about on Greater Than Code. PAUL: Okay. Well, there's a few things there. So firstly, what is EventStorming? I've been consulting, working with teams for a long time, coaching them and a big part of what I try and do is to try and bridge the gap between what the engineers, the developers, the technical people are trying to build in terms of the software, and what the actual problem is they're trying to solve. EventStorming is a technique for just mapping out a process using sticky notes where you're trying to describe the story of what it is that you're building, how that fits into the business process, and use the sticky notes to layer in variety of information and do it in a collaborative kind of way. So it's really about trying to bridge that communication gap and uncover assumptions that people might have, expose complexity and risk through the process, and with the goal of the software that you write actually being something that solves the real problem that you're trying to solve. I think it's a good topic for Greater Than Code based on what I understand about the podcast, because it certainly impacts the code that you write, touches on that, and connects with the design. But it's really optimized for collaboration, it's optimized for people with different perspectives being able to work together and approach it as visualizing processes that people create, and then working together to be able to do that. So there's a lot of techniques out there that are very much optimized from a developer perspective—UML diagrams, flow charts, and things like that. But EventStorming really, it sacrifices some of that rigor to try and draw people in and provide a structured conversation. I think with the podcast where you're trying to move beyond just the code and dig into the people aspects of this a lot more, I think it really touches on that in a meaningful way. JESSICA: You mentioned that with a bunch of stickies, a bunch of different people, and their perspectives, EventStorming layers in different kinds of information. PAUL: Mm hm. JESSICA: Like what? PAUL: Yeah. So the way that usually approach it is, let's say, we're modeling, visualizing some kind of process like somebody registering for a certain thing, or even somebody, maybe a more common example, purchasing something online and let's say, that we have the development team that's responsible for implementing how somebody might return a product to a merchant, something like that. The way it would work is you describe that process as events where each sticky note represents something that happened in the story of returning a product and then you can layer on questions. So if people have questions, use a different colored sticky note for highlighting things that people might be unsure of, what assumptions they might be making, differences in terminology, exposing those types of unknowns and then once you've sort of laid out that timeline, you can then layer in things like key events, what you might call emergent structures. So as you look at that timeline, what might be some events that are more important than others? JESSICA: Can you make that concrete for me? Give me an example of some events in the return process and then…? PAUL: Yeah. So let's say, the customer receives a product that they want to return. You could have an event like customer receive product and then an event that is customer reported need for return. And then you would have a shift in actor, like a shift in the person doing the work where maybe the merchant has to then merchant sent return package to customer. So we're mapping out each one of these as an event in the process and then the customer receives, or maybe it's a shipping label. The customer receives the shipping label and then they put the items in the package with the shipping label and they return it. And then there would be a bunch of events that the merchant would have to take care of. So the merchant would have to receive that package and then probably have to update the system to record that it's been returned. And then, I imagine there would be processing another order, or something like that. A key event in there might be something like sending out the shipping label and the customer receiving the shipping label because that's a point where the responsibility transfers from the merchant, who is preparing the shipping label and dispatching that, to the customer that's actually receiving it and then having to do something. That's just one, I guess, small example of you can use that to divide that story up into what you might think of as chapters where there's different responsibilities and changes in the narrative. Part of that maybe layering in sticky notes that represent who's doing the work. Like who's the actor, whether it's the merchant, or the customer, and then layering in other information, like the systems that are involved in that such as maybe there's email as a system, maybe there's the actual e-commerce platform, a payment gateway, these kinds of things could be reflected and so on, like there's – [overtalk] JESSICA: Probably integration with the shipper. PAUL: Integration with the shipper, right. So potentially, if you're designing this, you would have some kind of event to go out to the shipper to then know to actually pick up the package and that type of thing. And then once the package is actually delivered back to the merchant, then there would be some kind of event letting the merchant know. It's very hard to describe because I'm trying to picture this in my mind, which is an inherently visual thing. It's probably not that interesting to hear me describing something that's usually done on some kind of either mirror board, like some kind of electronic space, or on a piece of butcher's paper, or – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Something with a lot of sticky notes. PAUL: Something with a lot of sticky notes, right. DAMIEN: Which, I believe for our American listeners, sticky notes are the little square pieces of brightly colored paper with self-adhesive strip on the back. PAUL: Yeah. The stickies. DAMIEN: Stickies. [chuckles] I have a question about this process. I've been involved in very similar processes and it sounds incredibly useful. But as you describe it, one of the concerns I have is how do you avoid getting over specific, or over described? Like you can describe systems until you're talking about the particles in the sun, how do you know when to stop? PAUL: So I think there's a couple of things. Number one is at the start of whatever kind of this activity, this EventStorming is laying out what's the goal? What are we trying to accomplish in terms of the process? With returns, for example, it would be maybe from this event to this event, we're trying to map out what that process looks like and you start with what you might call the happy path. What does it look like when everything goes well? And then you can use pink stickies to represent alternate paths, or things going wrong and capture those. If they're not tied back to this goal, then you can say, “Okay, I think we've got enough level of detail here.” The other thing is time boxing is saying, “Okay, well, we've only got half an hour, or we've only got an hour so let's see how much we can do in that time period,” and then at the end of that, if you still have a lot of questions, then you can – or you feel like, “Oh, we need to dig into some of these areas more.” Then you could schedule a follow up session to dig into that a little bit more. So it's a combination of the people that are participating in this deciding how much level of detail they want to go down to. What I find is it typically is something that as you're going through the activity, you start to see. “Oh, maybe this is too far down in the weeds versus this is the right level.” As a facilitator, I don't typically prescribe that ahead of time, because it's much easier to add sticky notes and then talk about them than it is to have a conversation when there's nothing visualized. I like to visualize it first and lay it out and then it's very easy to say, “Oh, well, this looks like too much detail. So we'll just put a placeholder for that and not worry about out it right now.” It's a little bit of the facilitation technique of having a parking lot where you can say, “Okay, this is a good topic, but maybe we don't need to get down in that right now. Maybe let's refocus back on what it is that we're trying to accomplish.” JESSICA: So there's some regulation that happens naturally during the meeting, during interactions and you can have that regulation in the context of the visual representation, which is the EventStorming, the long row of stickies from one event to the other. PAUL: Right, the timeline that you're building up. So it's a little bit in my mind, I watched last year, I think it was on Netflix. There was a documentary about Pixar and how they do their storyboarding process for their movies and it is exactly that. They storyboard out the movie and iterate over that again and again and again telling that story. What's powerful about that is it's a visual medium so you have someone that is sketching out the main beats of the story and then they're talking it through. Not to say that EventStorming is at that level of rigor, but it has that kind of feel to it of we're laying out these events to tell the story and then we're talking through the story and seeing what we've missed and where we need to add more detail, maybe where we've added too much detail. And then like you said, Jess, there's a certain amount of self-regulation in there in terms of, do we have enough time to go down into this? Is this important right now? JESSICA: And I imagine that when I have questions that go further into detail than we were able to go in the meeting, if I've been in that EventStorming session, I know who to ask. PAUL: That's the idea, yeah. So the pink stickies that we said represent questions, what I like about those is, well, several things. Number one, it democratizes the idea that it's okay to ask questions, which I think is a really powerful technique. I think there's a tendency in meetings for some people to hold back and other people to do all the talking. We've all experienced that. What this tries to do is to democratize that and actually make it not only okay and not only accepted, but encourage that you're expected to ask questions and you're expected to put these sticky notes on here when there's things that you don't understand. JESSICA: Putting the questions on a sticky note, along with the events, the actors, and the things that we do know go on sticky notes, the questions also go on sticky notes. All of these are contributions. PAUL: Exactly. They value contributions and what I love about that is that even people that are new to this process, it's a way for them to ask questions in a way that is kind of friendly to them. I've seen this work really well, for example, with onboarding new team members and also, it encourages the idea that we have different areas of expertise. So in any given process, or any business story, whatever you want to characterize it as, some people are going to know more about some parts of it than others. What typically happens is nobody knows the whole story, but when we work together, we can actually build up an approximation of that whole story and help each other fill in the gaps. So you may have the person that's more on the business, or the product side explaining some terminology. You can capture those explanations on sticky notes as a glossary that you're building up as you go. You can have engineers asking questions about the sequence of events in terms of well, does this one come before that one? And then the other thing that's nice about the questions is it actually as you're going, it's mapping out your ignorance and I see that as a positive thing. JESSICA: The known unknowns. PAUL: Known unknowns. It takes unknown unknowns, which the kind of elephant in the room, and at least gets them up as known unknowns that you can then have a conversation around. Because there's often this situation of a question that somebody's afraid to ask and maybe they're new to the team, or maybe they're just not comfortable asking that type of question. But it gives you actually a map of that ignorance so you can kind of see oh, there's this whole area here that just has a bunch of pink stickies. So that's probably not an area we're ready to work on and we should prioritize. Actually, if this is an area that we need to be working on soon, we should prioritize getting answers to these questions by maybe we need to do a proof of concept, or some UX work, or maybe some kind of prototyping around this area, or like you said, Jess, maybe the person that knows the answers to these questions is just not in this session right now and so, we need to follow up with them, get whatever answers we need, and then come back and revisit things. JESSICA: So you identify areas of risk. PAUL: Yes. Areas of risk, both from a product perspective and also from a technical perspective as well. DAMIEN: So what does it take to have one of these events, or to facilitate one of these events? How do you know when you're ready and you can do it? PAUL: So I've done EventStorming [chuckles] as a conference activity in a hallway with sticky notes and we say, “Okay, let's as a little bit of an icebreaker here –” I usually you do the story of Cinderella. “Let's pick the Disney story of Cinderella and we'll just EventStorm this out. Just everyone, here are some orange sticky notes and a Sharpie, just write down some things that you remember happening in that story,” and then everyone writes a few. We post it up on the hallway wall and then we sequence them as a timeline and then we can basically build up that story in about 5, or 10 minutes from scratch. With a business process, it's not that different. It's like, okay, we're going to do returns, or something like that and if people are already familiar with the technique, then just give them a minute, or so to think of some things that they know that would happen in that process. And then they do that individually and then we just post them up on the timeline and then sequence them as a group and it can happen really quickly. And then everything from there is refinement. Iteration and refinement over what you've put up as that initial skeleton. DAMIEN: Do you ever find that a team comes back a week, or a day, or a month later and goes, “Oh, there is this big gap in our narrative because nobody in this room understood the warehouse needed to be reordered in order to send this thing down”? PAUL: Oh, for sure. Sometimes it's big gaps. Sometimes it's a huge cluster of pink sticky notes that represents an area where there's just a lot of risk and unknowns that the team maybe hasn't thought about all that much. Like you said, it could be there's this third-party thing that it wasn't until everyone got in a room and kind of started to map it out, that they realized that there was this gap in their knowledge. JESSICA: Yeah. Although, you could completely miss it if there's nobody from the warehouse in the room and nobody has any idea that you need to tell the warehouse to expect this return. PAUL: Right and so, part of that is putting a little bit of thought into who would need to be part of this and in a certain way, playing devil's advocate in terms of what don't we know, what haven't we thought of. So it encourages that sense of curiosity with this and it's a little bit different from – Some of the listeners maybe have experienced user story mapping and other techniques like that. Those tend to be focused on understanding a process, but they're very much geared towards okay, how do we then figure out how we're going to code up this feature and how do we slice it up into stories and prioritize that. So it's similar in terms of sticky notes, but the emphasis in EventStorming is more on understanding together, the problem that we're trying to address from a business perspective. JESSICA: Knowledge pulling. PAUL: Yeah. Knowledge pulling, knowledge distillation, those types of idea years, and that kind of mindset. So not just jumping straight to code, but trying to get a little bit of a shared understanding of what all is the thing that we're trying to actually work on here. JESSICA: Eric Evans calls it knowledge crunching. PAUL: Yes, Eric called it knowledge crunching. DAMIEN: I love that phrase, that shared understanding. That's what we, as product teams, are generating is a shared understanding both, captured in our documentation, in our code, and before that, I guess on large sheets of butcher paper. [laughs] PAUL: Well, and it could be a quick exercise of okay, we're going to be working on some new feature and let's just spend 15 minutes just mapping it out to get a sense of, are we on the same page with this? JESSICA: Right, because sometimes it's not even about we think we need to know something, it's do we know enough? Let's find out. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: And is that knowledge shared among us? PAUL: Right, and maybe exposing, like it could be as simple as slightly different terminology, or slightly different understanding of terminology between people that can have a big impact in terms of that. I was teaching a workshop last night where we were talking about this, where somebody had written the event. So there was a repair process that a third-party repair company would handle and then the event that closed that process off, they called case closed. So then the question becomes well, what does case closed mean? Because the word case – [overtalk] JESSICA: [laughs] It's like what's the definition of done? PAUL: Right, exactly. [laughter] Because that word case didn't show up anywhere earlier in the process. So is this like a new concept? Because the thing that kicks off the process is repair purchase order created and at the end of the process, it's said case closed. So then the question becomes well, is case closed really, is that a new concept that we actually need to implement here? Or is this another way of saying that we are getting a copy of that repair purchase order back that and it's been updated with details about what the repair involved? Or maybe it's something like repair purchase order closed. So it's kind of forcing us to clarify terminology, which may seem a little bit pedantic, but that's what's going to end up in the code. If you can get some of those things exposed a little earlier before you actually jump to code and get people on the same page and surface any sort of differences in terminology and misunderstandings, I think that can be super helpful for everyone. JESSICA: Yeah. Some people say it's just semantics. Semantics' meaning, its only meaning, this is only about out what this step actually means because when you put it in the code, the code is crystal clear. It is going to do exactly what it does and whether that clarity matches the shared understanding that we think we have oh, that's the difference between a bug and a working system. DAMIEN: [laughs] That's beautiful. It's only meaning. [laughs] JESSICA: Right? Yeah. But this is what makes programming hard is that pedanticness. The computer is the ultimate pedant. DAMIEN: Pedant. You're going to be pedantic about it. [laughter] PAUL: I see what you did there. [laughter] DAMIEN: And that is the occupation, right? That is what we do is look at and create systems and then make them precise. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: In a way that actually well, is precise. [laughs] JESSICA: Right, and the power of our human language is that it's not precise, that it allows for ambiguity, and therefore, a much broader range of meaning. But as developers, it's our job to be precise. We have to be precise to the computers. It helps tremendously to be precise with each other. DAMIEN: Yeah, and I think that's actually the power of human cognition is that it's not precise. We are very, very fuzzy machines and anyone who tries to pretend otherwise will be greatly disappointed. Ask me how I know. [laughter] PAUL: Well, and I think what I'm trying to do with something like EventStorming is to embrace the fuzziness, is to say that that's actually an asset and we want to embrace that and expose that fuzziness, that messiness. Because the processes we have and work with are often inherently complex. We are trying to provide some visual representation of that so we can actually get our head around, or our minds around the language complexities, the meanings, and drive in a little bit to that meaning. JESSICA: So when the sticky notes pile on top of each other, that's a feature. PAUL: It is. Going back to that example I was just talking about, let's say, there's a bunch of, like we do the initial part of this for a minute, or so where people are creating sticky notes and let's say, we end up with four, or five sticky notes written by different people on top of each other that end up on the timeline that all say pretty much the same thing with slight variations. JESSICA: Let's say, case closed, request closed. PAUL: Case closed, repair purchase order closed, repair purchase order updated, repair purchase order sent. So from a meaning perspective, I look at that and I say, “That's gold in terms of information,” because that's showing us that there's a richness here. Firstly, that's a very memorable thing that's happening in the timeline – [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh and it has multiple things. PAUL: That maybe means it's a key event. Right, and then what is the meaning? Are these the same things? Are they different things? Maybe we don't have enough time in that session to dig into that, but if we're going to implement something around that, or work with something around that, then we're going to at some point need some clarity around the language, the terminology, and what these concepts mean. Also, the sequence as well, because it might be that there's actually multiple events being expressed there that need to be teased apart. DAMIEN: You used this phrase a couple times, “key event,” and since you've used it a couple times, I think it might be key. [laughter] Can you tell us a little bit about what a key event is? What makes something a key event? PAUL: Yeah, the example I like to use is from the Cinderella story. So if you think about the story of Cinderella, one of the things, when people are doing that as an icebreaker, they always end up being multiple copies of the event that usually is something like shoe lost, or slipper lost, or glass slipper lost. There's something about that event that makes it memorable, firstly and then there's something about that event that makes it pivotal in the story. For those that are not familiar with the story [chuckles]—I am because I've EventStormed this thing maybe a hundred times—but there's this part. Another key event is the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic at the start and she actually describes a business policy. She says, “The magic is going to run out at midnight,” and like all business policies, it's vague [laughter] and it's unclear as to what it means because – [overtalk] JESSICA: The carriage disappears, the dress disappears, but not the slipper that fell off. PAUL: Exactly. There's this exception that for some bizarre reason, to move the plot forward, the slipper stays. But then the definition of midnight is very hazy because what she's actually describing, in software terms, is a long running process of the clock banging 12 times, which is what midnight means is the time between the first and the twelfth and during that time, the magic is slowly unraveling. JESSICA: So midnight is a duration, not an instant. PAUL: Exactly. Yes, it's a process, not an event. So coming back to the question that Damien asked about key events. That slipper being lost is a key event in that story, I think because it actually is a shift in narrative. Up until that point in the story, it's the story of Cinderella and then after that, once the slipper is lost, it becomes the story of the prince looking for Cinderella. And then at the end, you get the day tomorrow, the stuff that happens with that slipper at the end of the story. Another key event would be like the fairy godmother showing up and doing the magic. DAMIEN: [chuckles] It seems like these are necessary events, right? If the slipper is not lost, if the fairy godmother doesn't do magic, you don't have the story of Cinderella. PAUL: Right. These are narrative turns, right? DAMIEN: Yeah. PAUL: These are points of the story shifts and so, key events can sometimes be a narrative shift where it's driving the story forward in a business process. Something like, let's say, you're working on an e-commerce system, like order submitted is a key event because you are adding items to a shopping cart and then at some point, you make a decision to submit the order and then at that point, it transitions from order being a draft thing that is in a state of flux to it actually becomes essentially immutable and gets passed over to fulfilment. So there's a shift in responsibility and actor between these two as well just like between Cinderella and the prince. JESSICA: A shift in who is driving the story forward. PAUL: Right. Yeah. So it's who is driving the story forward. So these key events often function as a shift in actor, a shift in who's driving the story forward, or who has responsibility. They also often indicate a handoff because of that from one group to another in an organization. Something like a sales process that terminates in contract signed. That key event is also the goal of the sales process. The goal is to get to contract signed and then once that happens, there's usually a transition to say, an onboarding group that actually onboards the new customer in the case of a sales process for a new customer, or in e-commerce, it would be the fulfillment part, the warehousing part that Jess was talking about earlier. That's actually responsible for the fulfillment piece, which is they take that order, they create a package, they put all the items in the package, create the shipping label, and ship it out to the customer. JESSICA: And in domain-driven design, you talked about the shift from order being a fluid thing that's changing as people add stuff to their cart to order being immutable. The word order has different meanings for the web site where you're buying stuff and the fulfillment system, there's a shift in that term. PAUL: Right, and that often happens around a key event, or a pivotal event is that there's a shift from one, you might think of it as context, or language over to another. So preorder submission, it's functioning as a draft order, but what it's actually typically called is a shopping cart and a shopping cart is not the same as an order. It's a great metaphor because there is no physical cart, but we all know what that means as a metaphor. A shopping cart is a completely different metaphor from an order, but we're able to understand that thread of continuity between I have this interactive process of taking items, or products, putting them in the shopping cart, or out again. And then at some point that shopping cart, which is functioning as a draft order, actually it becomes an order that has been submitted and then it gets – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Yeah, the metaphor doesn't really work until that transition. You have a shopping cart and then you click purchase and now what? [laughs] You're not going to the register and ringing it up, that doesn't make any sense. [chuckles] The metaphor kind of has to end there. JESSICA: You're not leaving the cart in the corral in the parking lot. [laughter] PAUL: Well, I think what they're trying to do is when you think about going through the purchase process at a store, you take your items up in the shopping cart and then at that point, you transition into a financial transaction that has to occur that then if you were at a big box electronic store, or something, eventually, you would make the payment. You would submit payment. That would be the key events and that payment is accepted and then you receive a receipt, which is kind of the in-person version of a record of your order that you've made because you have to bring the receipt back. DAMIEN: It sort of works if the thing you're putting in the shopping cart are those little cards. When they don't want to put things on the shelf, they have a card, you pick it up, and you take it to register. They ring it up, they give you a receipt, and hopefully, the thing shows up in the mail someday, or someone goes to the warehouse and goes gets it. PAUL: We've all done that. [chuckles] Sometimes it shows up. Sometimes it doesn't. JESSICA: That's an interesting point that at key events, there can be a shift in metaphor. PAUL: Yes. Often, there is. So for example, I mentioned earlier, a sales process ending in a contract and then once the contract is signed, the team – let's say, you're signing on a new customer, for a SaaS service, or something like that. Once they've signed the contract, the conversation isn't really about the contract anymore. It's about what do we need to do to onboard this customer. Up until that point, the emphasis is maybe on payment, legal disclosures, and things like that. But then the focus shifts after the contract is signed to more of an operational focus of how do we get the data in, how do we set up their accounts correctly, that type of thing. JESSICA: The contract is an input to that process. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Whereas, it was the output, the big goal of the sales process. PAUL: Yes, exactly. So these key events also function from a systems perspective, when you think about moving this to code that event then becomes almost like a message potentially. Could be implemented as say, a message that's being passed from the sales system through to the onboarding system, or something like that. So it functions as the integration point between those two, where the language has to be translated from one context to another. JESSICA: And it's an integration point we can define carefully so that makes it a strong boundary and a good place to divide the system. DAMIEN: Nice. PAUL: Right. So that's where it starts to connect to some of the things that people really care about these days in terms of system decomposition and things like that. Because you can start thinking about based on a process view of this, based on a behavior view of this, if we treat these key events as potential emergent boundaries in a process, like we've been describing, that we discover through mapping out the process, then that can give us some clues as to hmm maybe these boundaries don't exist in the system right now, but they could. These could be places where we start to tease things apart. JESSICA: Right. Where you start breaking out separate services and then when you get down to the user story level, the user stories expect a consistent language within themselves. You're not going to go from cart to return purchase in a case. PAUL: [laughs] Right. JESSICA: In a single user story. User stories are smaller scope and work within a single language. PAUL: Right and so, I think the connection there in my mind is user stories have to be written in some kind of language, within some language context and mapping out the process can help you understand where you are in that context and then also understand, like if you think about a process that maybe has a sales part of the process and then an onboarding part, it'll often be the case that there's different development teams that are focusing on different parts of that process. So it provides a way of them seeing what their integration point is and what might need to happen across that integration point. If they were to either integrate to different systems, or if they're trying to tease apart an existing system. To use Michael Feathers' term, what might be a “scene” that we could put in here that would allow us to start teasing these things apart. And doing it with the knowledge of the product people that are part of the visualization, too is that this isn't something typically that engineers do exclusively from a technical perspective. The idea with EventStorming is you are also bringing in other perspectives like product, business, stakeholders, and anyone that might have more of that business perspective in terms of what the goals of the process are and what the steps are in the process. MID-ROLL: And now a quick word from our sponsor. I hear people say the VPNs have a reputation for slowing down your internet speed, but not with NordVPN, because it's the fastest VPN in the world. I don't have to sacrifice internet speed for better security. With NordVPN, my internet traffic is routed through a secure encrypted tunnel, which protects my data and privacy. I can also have it on up to six devices like my laptop, phone, TV, iPad—all my devices are protected. Grab your exclusive NordVPN deal by going to nordvpn.com/gtc, or use the code GTC to get a huge discount on your NordVPN plan plus one additional month for free. Plus, a bonus gift! It's completely risk-free with Nord's 30-day money back guarantee. JESSICA: As a developer, it's so important to understand what those goals are, because that lets us make good decisions when we're down in the weeds and getting super precise. PAUL: Right, I think so. I think often, I see teams that are implementing stories, but not really understanding the why behind that in terms of maybe they get here's the functionality on delivering and how that fits into the system. But like I talked about before, when you're driving a process towards a key event, that becomes the goal of that subprocess. So the question then becomes how does the functionality that I'm going to implement that's described in this user story actually move people towards that goal and maybe there's a better way of implementing it to actually get them there. DAMIEN: Yeah, it's always important to keep that in mind, because there's always going to be ambiguity until you have a running system, or ran system, honestly. JESSICA: Yeah! DAMIEN: There's always going to be ambiguity, which it is our job as people writing code to manage and we need to know. Nobody's going to tell us exactly what's going to happen because that's our job. PAUL: Right. JESSICA: It's like if the developer had a user story that Cinderella's slipper fell off, but they do didn't realize that the goal of that was that the prince picked it up, then they might be like, “Oh, slipper broke. That's fine.” PAUL: Yeah. JESSICA: It's off the foot. Check the box. PAUL: Let's create a glass slipper factory implementer object [laughter] so that we can just create more of those. JESSICA: Oh, yeah. What, you wanted a method slip off in one piece? You didn't say that. I've created crush! PAUL: Right. [laughter] Yeah. So I think sometimes there's this potential to get lost in the weeds of the everyday development work that is happening and I like to tie it back to what is the actual story that we're supporting. And then sometimes what people think of as exception cases, like an example might be going back to that merchant return example is what if they issue the shipper label, but the buyer never receives it. We may say, “Well, that's never going to happen,” or “That's unlikely.” But visualizing that case, you may say, “That's actually a strong possibility. How do we handle that case and bake that into the design so that it actually reflects what we're trying to do?” JESSICA: And then you make an event that just triggers two weeks later that says, “Check whether customer received label.” PAUL: Yes, exactly. One thing you can do as well is like – so that's one possibility of solving it. The idea what EventStorming can let you do is say, “Well, that's one way of doing it. Are there any other options in terms of how we could handle this, let's visualize.” With any exception case, or something, you could say, “Well, let's try solving this a few different ways. Just quickly come up with some different ideas and then we can pull the best of those ideas into that.” So the idea when you're modeling is to say, “Okay, well, there's probably more than one way to address this. So maybe let's get a few ideas on the table and then pick the best out of these.” JESSICA: Or address it at multiple levels. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: A fallback for the entire process is customer contact support again. PAUL: Right, and that may be the simple answer in that kind of case. What we're trying to do, though is to visualize that case as an option and then talk about it, have a structured conversation around it, say, “Well, how would we handle that?” Which I think from a product management perspective is a key thing to do is to engage the engineers in saying, “Well, what are some different ways that we could handle this and solve this?” If you have people that are doing responsibility primarily for testing in that, then having them weigh in on, well, how would we test this? What kind of test cases might we need to handle for this? So it's getting – [overtalk] JESSICA: How will we know it worked? PAUL: Different perspectives and opinions on the table earlier rather than later. JESSICA: And it's cheap. It's cheap, people. It's a couple hours and a lot of post-its. You can even buy the generic post-its. We went to Office Depot yesterday, it's $10 for 5 little Post-it pads, [laughter] or 25 Office Depot brand post-it pads. They don't have to stay on the wall very long; the cheap ones will work. PAUL: [laughs] So those all work and then it depends if you have shares in 3M, I guess, with you. [laughter] Or Office Depot, depending which road you want to go down. [laughter] JESSICA: Or if you really care about that shade of pale purple, which I do. PAUL: Right. I mean, what's been fascinating to me is in the last 2 years with switching to remote work and that is so much of, 95% of the EventStorming I do these days is on a collaborative whiteboard tool like Miro, or MURAL, which I don't know why those two product names are almost exactly the same. But then it's even cheaper because you can sign up for a free account, invite a few people, and then just start adding sticky notes to some virtual whiteboard and do it from home. There's a bunch of things that you can do on tool like that with copy pasting, moving groups of sticky notes around, rearranging things, and ordering things much – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you never run out of wall. PAUL: Yeah. The idea with the butcher's paper in a physical workshop, in-person workshop is you're trying to create a sense of unending modeling space that you can use. That you get for free when you use online collaborative whiteboarding tool. It's just there out of – [overtalk] JESSICA: And you can zoom in. PAUL: And you zoom in and out. Yeah. There's a – [overtalk] JESSICA: Stickies on your stickies on your stickies. [laughter] I'm not necessarily recommending that, but you can do it. PAUL: Right. The group I was working with last night, they'd actually gone to town using Miro emojis. They had something bad happen in the project and they've got the horror emoji [laughter] and then they've got all kinds of and then copy pasting images off the internet for things. JESSICA: Nice. PAUL: So yeah, can make it even more fun. JESSICA: Okay. So it's less physical, but in a lot of ways it can be more expressive, PAUL: I think so. More expressive and just as engaging and it can break down the geographical barriers. I've done sessions where we've had people simultaneously spread in multiple occasions across the US and Europe in the same session, all participating in real-time. If you're doing it remote, I like to keep it short. So maybe we do like a 2-hour session with a 10- or 15-minute break in the middle, because you're trying to manage people's energy and keep them focused and it's hard to do that when you just keep going. MANDY: I kind of want to talk a little bit about facilitation and how you facilitate these kind of workshops and what you do, engage people and keep them interested. PAUL: Yeah. So I think that it depends a little bit on the level of detail we're working at. If it's at the level of a few team members trying to figure out a feature, then it can be very informal. Not a lot of facilitation required. Let's just write down what the goal is and then go through the process of brainstorming a few stickies, laying it out, and then sequencing it as a timeline, adding questions. It doesn't require a lot of facilitation hand. I think the key thing is just making sure that people are writing down their questions and that it's time boxed. So quitting while people are still interested and then [laughter] at the end, before you finish, having a little bit of a conversation around what might the next steps be. Like what did we learn? You could do a couple of minutes retrospective, add a sticky note for something you learned in this session, and then what do you see as our next steps and then move on from there with whatever action items come out of that. So that one doesn't require, I think a lot of facilitation and people can get up and running with that pretty quickly. I also facilitate workshops that are a lot more involved where it's at the other end of the spectrum, where it's a big picture workshop where we're mapping out maybe an entire value stream for an organization. We may have a dozen, 20 people involved in a session like that representing different departments, different organizational silos and in that case, it requires a lot more planning, a lot more thinking through what the goal of the workshop is, who would you need to invite? Because there's a lot more detail involved and a lot more people involved, that could be four, or five multi-hour sessions spread over multiple days to be able to map out an entire value stream from soup to nuts. And then usually the goal of something like that is some kind of system modernization effort, or maybe spinning up a new project, or decomposing a legacy system, or even understanding what a legacy system does, or process improvement that will result inevitably in some software development in certain places. I did a workshop like that, I think last August and out of that, we identified a major bottleneck in the process that everyone in the workshop, I think it was just a bunch of pink stickies in one area that it got called the hot mess. [laughter] It was one area and what was happening was there were several major business concerns that were all coupled together in this system. They actually ended up spinning up a development team to focus on teasing apart the hot mess to figure out how do we decompose that down? JESSICA: Yes. PAUL: As far as I know, that effort was still ongoing as of December. I'm assuming that's still running because it was prioritized as we need to be able to decompose this part of this system to be able to grow and scale to where we want to get to. JESSICA: Yeah. That's a major business risk that they've got. They at least got clarity about where it is. PAUL: Right. Yeah, and what we did from there is I coached the developers through that process over several months. So we actually EventStormed it out at a much lower level. Once we figured out what the hot mess was, let's map it out and then they combined that with some flow charting and a bunch of other more engineering, kind of oriented visualization techniques, state machines, things like that to try and get a handle on what was going on. DAMIEN: We'll get UML in there eventually, right? PAUL: Eventually. [laughter] You can't do software development without some kind of state machine, sequence diagram. JESSICA: And it's approximating UML. You can't do it. You can't do it. [laughter] You will either use it, or you will derive a pigeon form of it. PAUL: Right. Well, I still use it for state diagrams and sequence diagrams when I'm down at that technical level. What I find is that there's a certain level of rigor that UML requires for a sequence diagram, or something like that that seems to get in the way of collaboration. So EventStorming sacrifices some of that rigor to be able to draw in everyone and have a low bar of entry to having people participate. DAMIEN: That's a huge insight. Why do you think that is? Is it the inability to hold that much information at a high level of rigor, or just people not used to working at that sort of precision and rigor? PAUL: I think that when I'm working with people that are not hands-on coders, they are in the everyday, like say, product managers, or stakeholders, to use those terms. They're in the everyday details of how the business process works and they tend to think of that process more as a series of steps that they're going through in a very specific kind of way. Like, I'm shipping a certain product, or supporting the shipping. or returning of certain types of products, those kinds of things. Whereas, as developers, we tend to think of it more in terms of the abstractions of the system and what we're trying to implement in the code. So the idea of being able to tell the story of a process in terms of the events that happen is a very natural thing, I find for people from a business perspective to do because that's how they tend to think about it. Whereas, I think as programmers, we're often taught not so much to think about behavior as a sequence of things happening, but more as the structure we've been taught to design in terms of structures and relationships rather than flow. JESSICA: Yet that's changing with event sourcing. PAUL: I think so. EventStorming and event sourcing become a very natural complement for each other and even event-driven architecture, or any event-driven messaging, whatever it happens to be. The gap between modeling using EventStorming and then designing some kind of event-driven distributed system, or even not distributed, but still event-driven is much more natural than trying to do something like an entity relationship diagram and they'd get from that to some kind of meaningful understanding of what's the story of how these functions and features are going to work. JESSICA: On the topic of sacrificing rigor for collaboration, I think you have to sacrifice rigor to work across content texts because you will find contradictions between them. The language does have different meaning before and after the order is submitted and you have to allow for that in the collaboration. It's not that you're not going to have the rigor. It's more that you're postponing it, you're scoping it as separately. This meeting is about the higher level and you need completeness over consistency. DAMIEN: Yeah. I feel like almost you have to sacrifice rigor to be effective in most roles and in that way, sacrifice is even the wrong word. Most of the things that we do as human beings do not allow for the sort of rigor of the things that we do as software engineers and things that computers do. JESSICA: Yeah. DAMIEN: And it's just, the world doesn't work that way. PAUL: Right. Well, and it's the focus in EventStorming on exploration, discovery, and urgent ideas versus rigor is more about not so much exploring and discovery, but about converging on certain things. So when someone says pedant and the other person says pedant, or vice versa, that tends to shut down the conversation because now you are trying to converge on some agreed upon term versus saying, “Well, let's explore a bunch of different ways this could be expressed and temporarily defer trying converge on.” JESSICA: Later in Slack, we'll vote. PAUL: Yes. JESSICA: Okay. So standardize later. PAUL: Yes. Standardize, converge later, and for now, let's kind of hold that at arm's length so that we can uncover and discover different perspectives on this in terms of how the story works and then add regulator when we go to code and then you may discover things in code where there are implicit concepts that you then need to take back to the modeling to try and figure out well, how do we express this? Coming up with some kind of term in the code and being able to go from there. JESSICA: Right. Some sort of potential return because it hasn't happened yet. PAUL: Exactly. So maybe it's a potential, maybe it's some other kind of potential return, like pending return, maybe we don't call it a return at all. JESSICA: Or disliked item because we could – or unsatisfactory item because we could intercept that and try to like, “Hey, how about we send you the screws that we're missing?” PAUL: Right. Yeah, maybe the answer is not a return at all. JESSICA: Yeah. PAUL: But maybe the case is that the customer says they want to return it, but you actually find a way to get them to buy more stuff by sending them something else that they would be happy with. So the idea is we're trying to promote discovery thinking when we are talking about how to understand certain problems and how to solve them rather than closing off options too soon. MANDY: So, Paul, I know you do give these workshops. Is there anything? Where can people find you? How can people learn more? How can people hire you to facilitate a workshop and get in touch with you? PAUL: Okay. Well, in terms of resources, Damien had mentioned at the beginning, I have an eBook up on Leanpub, The EventStorming Handbook, so if people are interested in learning more, they can get that. And then I do workshop facilitation and training through my company, Virtual Genius. They can go to virtualgenius.com and look at what training is available. It's all online these days, so they can participate from anywhere. We have some public workshops coming up in the coming months. And then they can find me, I'm @ThePaulRayner on Twitter, just to differentiate me from all the indefinite articles that are out there. [laughter] MANDY: Sounds good. Well, let's head into reflections. I can start. I just was thinking while we were talking about this episode, about how closely this ties into my background in professional writing, technical writing to be exact, and just how you have this process to lay out exactly what steps need to be taken and to differentiate when people say the same things and thinking about, “Well, they're saying the same things, but the words matter,” and to get pedantic, that can be a good thing, especially when you are writing technical documents and how-tos. I remember still, my first job being a technical writer and looking at people in a machine shop who it was like, first, you do this, then you do this, then you do this and to me, I was like, “This is so boring.” But it makes sense and it matters. So this has been a really good way for me to think about it as a newbie just likening it to technical writing. JESSICA: Yeah. Technical writing has to tell that story. DAMIEN: I'm going to be reflecting on this has been such a great conversation and I feel like I have a lot of familiarity with at least a very similar process. I brought up all my fears that come from them, which is like, what if we don't have the right person in the room? What if there's something we didn't discover? And you said something about how you can do this in 5 minutes and how you can do this in 15 minutes and I realized, “Oh, this process doesn't have to be the 6-hour things that I've participated in and facilitated in. It can also be done more smaller and more iteratively and I can bring this sort of same process and thought process into more of the daily work.” So that's super helpful for me. JESSICA: I want to reflect on a phrase that Paul said and then Damien emphasized, which is shared understanding. It's what we're trying to get to in EventStorming across teams and across functions. I think it's also like what we're constantly trying to get to as humans. We value shared understanding so much because we're trapped in our heads and my experience in my head is never going to be the same as your experience in your head. But at some point, we share the same physical world. So if we can get that visual representation, if we can be talking together about something in that visual world, we can pass ideas back and forth more meaningfully. We can achieve this shared understanding. We can build something together. And that feels so good. I think that that constant building of shared understanding is a lot of what it means to be human and I get really excited when I get to do that at work. PAUL: I think I would just add to that as well is being human, I'm very much aware of limitations in terms of how many ideas I can hold in my head at any one time. I know the times where I've been in the experience that many describe where someone's giving me a list of steps to follow and things like that, inevitably I'm like, “Well, I remember like the first two, maybe three,” and then everything after that is kind of Charlie Brown. What, what, why? [laughter] I don't remember anything they said from that point on. But when I can visualize something, then I can take it in one go. I can see it and we're building it together. So for me, it's a little bit of a mind hack in terms of getting over the limitations of how many things I can keep in my mind at one time. Also, like you said, Jess, getting those things out of my mind and out of other people's minds into a shared space where we can actually collaborate on them together, I think that's really important to be able to do that in a meaningful way. MANDY: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today, Paul. We really enjoyed this discussion. And if you, as listeners, would like to continue this conversation, please head over to Patreon.com/greaterthancode. We have a Slack channel. You can pledge and donate to sponsor us as little as a dollar and you can come in, hang out, talk with us about these episodes. If not, give me a DM on Twitter and let me know, and I'll let you in anyway because [laughter] that's what we do here at Greater Than Code. PAUL: Because Mandy's awesome. MANDY: [laughs] Thank you, Paul. With that, thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you again next week. Special Guest: Paul Rayner.

Paul Nation is one of the world's leading researchers on and writers on vocabulary, reading and fluency, has written dozens of books and been publishing research on these topics since 1970. Paul is Emeritus Professor in Applied Linguistics at the School of Linguistics and Applied Language Studies (LALS) at Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand and has taught in Indonesia, Thailand, the United States, Finland and Japan.For more podcasts, videos and blogs, visit our website Support the podcast – buy us a coffee!Develop yourself! Find more about our teacher training courses Watch as well as listen on our YouTube channelTracy: Hey everybody. Welcome to our podcast.Ross Thorburn: Hey everyone. On our podcasts, I think we spent a lot of time talking about speaking, but we haven't ever really directly tackled the idea of fluency.Tracy: That's true.Ross: Today we've got, once again, Paul Nation, emeritus professor at the School of Applied Linguistics and Applied Language at Victoria University, New Zealand, to talk to us about fluency and vocabulary and how those two things link together.Tracy: Paul is one of the world's leading researchers and writers on vocabulary and fluency. We are incredibly lucky to be able to have him on our podcast.Ross: As usual, we've got three areas that we'll cover in the podcast. Firstly, we will ask Paul why fluency is important. Then secondly...Tracy: ...how can teachers help students develop fluency, and the third one...Ross: ...what are some common mistakes that teachers make in teaching vocabulary and helping students become fluent?Why is fluency important?Tracy: Hello Paul.Paul Nation: Hello.Tracy: How are you doing?Paul: Good.Tracy: Before we go onto fluency, let's start off by talking about vocabulary.Paul: No problem.Tracy: Why have you dedicated so much of your career to vocabulary and vocabulary research?Paul: There's a couple of reasons why I focus on it. I guess being important is one of the reasons. The vocabulary knowledge underlies every language use skill, and without vocabulary, you can't do much in the way of listening, speaking, reading or writing.The other reason I'd probably focus on is that it's been a very poorly researched area in the past. In fact, some of the worst researched areas that I know of in applied linguistics are actually in vocabularies.Ross: Can you tell us a bit about fluency then? To start off, why is fluency so important?Paul: One of my favorite stories about that is when I was in Japan. We went on a train. We weren't quite sure whether we were going to the right place or not. I looked around the carriage, and there was a very studious looking young woman there wearing glasses, looking like a student.I asked her, "Is this the train to Osaka?" She looked at me, and a look of dismay came over her face. She buried her hands in the face. "Oh my goodness, what have I done?" If I caused her to lose face, what's going to happen as a result?Anyway, someone further down the carriage, a man said, "Yes, Osaka." As the train went along, this woman pulled out a book and started reading it. Being nosy, I dropped my pen on the floor and had a quick look at what the book was.She was reading a book called "The Macro Economics of Agriculture" in English. I couldn't read a book called The Macro Economics of Agriculture in English, even being a native speaker. When we got off the train, she came up to us and said, "Where are you going?" I bet that she'd been practicing that sentence for the last 20 or 30 minutes before we got to the station.I said the name. She said, "Follow me." We had a conversation. Here was someone with enormous knowledge of the language and yet not fluent in some of the basic things that she could have quite easily become fluent. It meant that these avenues of use of it were closed off to her.I think it's important that about a quarter of the time on a course to spend getting fluent in reading, getting fluent in writing, using just the little bit that you know even, but making sure that you can use it.Ross: Paul, with fluency, I think there's this concept that, for students, they only really become fluent or develop fluency at maybe intermediate or advanced levels. You wouldn't think of a beginner as being fluent. When do you think it's useful for students to start to develop fluency?Paul: I can't talk about anything nowadays it seems without having to get onto what I call the four strands. The four strands are simply learning through input, learning through output, deliberate learning, and developing fluency.Each one of those that I call a strand, which in the basic principle is that in a well‑balanced language course there should be roughly equal amount of time spent on each of these four strands at every single level of proficiency.If you're learning a language for survival, David Crab and I did some research to set up a survival vocabulary for foreign travel, which is about 120 words and phrases, that if you know those, you can do quite a lot in the language.You can travel around. You can get food. You can find accommodation. You can be polite to people and so on like that. The thing is, you could learn those, but the other thing is you've got to learn them fluently.That means that you can say them in a way that people will understand. When people reply, you need to be able to interpret what they say at a speed which will make it useful for you. Even then learning, a survival vocabulary, you've got to get fluent and that kind of fluency is quite easy to develop.You keep getting people to repeat it over and over again to you and get faster and faster and faster. You keep practicing and practicing and doing that. It's very important because a lot of students have quite a lot of knowledge of English, but they don't have the fluency to put it into practice.How can teachers help students develop fluency?Tracy: Paul, can you please share some practical activities which teachers can use in the classroom to help their students and develop those skills to be more fluent?Paul: I've written lots of books, but the one that I liked the most, one that gave me the greatest satisfaction having written it is called, "What Should Every EFL Teacher Know," because of near I sort of wanted after training teachers and teaching English and that for well over 50 years.I thought if I can sit down, reading all the research, and say in a simple, clear and direct way what do I think EFL teachers should be doing, then there's something wrong with...I haven't spent my life well.I wrote that book and then as, part of doing it, I sat, and I thought, "Well, what if I had to choose 20 teaching techniques and activities, what would they be? The top ones that people should know."I came up with a list of those which are in the book. The ones for speaking fluency, one is a very interesting technique called Four, Three, Two, where the students choose an easy topic, and then they sit down with a partner and teacher says, "Go."For four minutes, they have to talk about that familiar, easy topic. After exactly four minutes, the teacher says, "Stop. Change partners." Then everybody moves onto a new partner.Then for three minutes, the same people, half of the class have to talk again to their partner saying exactly what they said before to the new partner, but doing it in three minutes. After three minutes, they move onto another partner. Then they have to do it in two minutes. That's a very simple, easy but very effective technique for developing spoken fluency.Another one would be repeated delivery of a talk, which is a bit like Four, Three, Two because repetition is one of the ways of developing fluency. It's what I call the will beat a path to fluency, that is you keep doing the same thing over and over again until you get good at it.Another way of developing fluency is a rich and varied map where you do similar things but not exactly the same thing. You change it in some way so that you keep coming at the same stuff, but you're doing it in different ways.A very useful technique for that is called Linked Schools where people might read about something. Then they might write about the same topic, and they would have to get up and speak about that topic.Having now read about it, written about it, when they come to speak about it, they can do this speaking with a lot of knowledge and use that speaking as an opportunity to develop fluency in speaking, drawing on that knowledge.Common mistakes teachers make in teaching vocabulary and helping students become fluentRoss: I remember, Paul, a few years ago, in fact, I think we did a podcast about this, I remember reading a paper that you wrote that was warning teachers of the danger of teaching vocabulary in lexical or semantic sets.Can you tell us about some other examples maybe of where you think there's a gap between what research says works with teaching vocabulary and what teachers tend to do for teaching vocabulary?Paul: The lexical sets was interesting because once again, the research is starting to show that there are sort of niceties to that lexical set idea comparing immediate learning compared with a long‑term retention from it.There's interesting research which shows that the interference is greater with say, if you learn fruit together. It becomes harder with fruit, which in some ways resemble each other like apples or more like oranges. Then they are like bananas.You're more likely to get interference between apples and oranges than you are between apples and bananas in terms of the word form and its meaning. That's funny.I would say that the greatest mistake is one I've mentioned already, which was the idea of vocabulary needs to be taught. I would say another belief that's encouraged by people who haven't read the research is that vocabulary needs to be learned in context.They often express this negatively in the sense that it's not good to learn vocabulary out of context and the research is quite the opposite. Learning vocabulary out of context is highly effective and highly efficient.The idea, for example, of using bilingual word cards or bilingual flashcard programs is a very good idea. You'd have this often criticized because it says all the vocab isn't learned in context.If it's part of a well‑balanced program where there's opportunities for learning from input‑output in fluency development, which are all in context. Then some deliberate learning, using the first language translation, learning the word without any illustrative context around it is very effective and efficient.Tracy: That one is interesting. I think that's very different to what most teachers believe and what gets taught on most of the teacher training courses.Paul: Steve Crashing criticized this saying that this learning will not be learning which will be of use when you come to use the language normally. I tackled him on this at a conference one time, and I said, "Does this apply to vocabulary? The idea that deliberate learning doesn't result in the kind of knowledge you need for a normal language used."He said, "Yes, it applies to vocabulary." I said, "Good." We went away, and we got one of our PhD students working on it. She showed the deliberate decontextualized learning of vocabulary resulted in both implicit knowledge and explicit knowledge.Implicit knowledge is a kind of knowledge that you need for normal language use, this kind of flash card learning. You can learn enormous amounts in a very short time, but they out very important principles to follow when you do this learning.These are principles, which have been well‑established by psychological research or research in psychology over the last almost 100 years, or so, involving repetition, spacing of the repetitions, retrieval that means not looking at the word and the meaning together all the time, but having to try and retrieve or recall the meaning that went with the word.If you can't recall it, you have a look. The idea of spaced retrieval is very important. The idea of varying the order of the words being learned, so you're not learning them in the same serial order or anything like it.There are simple guidelines for that learning, but they're very important guidelines. If learners are trained in how to do that, training is not a big deal for that, they could learn large amounts in a very short time.This allows them to make good progress through extensive reading and extensive listening and things like that, because they bring all this background knowledge of decontextualized learning, which now becomes contextualized through their reading and listening.More from Paul NationRoss: Paul, I'll put a link to your University of Victoria web page. Is that a place for people to go if they want to find out more about your work?Paul: Yeah. The latest thing on the website is the updated vocabulary levels test, which is the most useful test for teachers of English as a foreign language to do, to measure the learners' vocabulary size. Then I wrote a book for learners called "What Do You Need to Know to Learn a Foreign Language?" That's free for download.Ross: Thanks so much again for taking the time to come and talk to us.Paul: No problem. Good luck with your work.Ross: Thanks, Paul.Paul: Bye everyone.Tracy: Bye.

When you have been investing in real estate for years, you've probably seen a lot of weird things. In this episode, longtime real estate investors Heath Silverman, Michael Albaum, and Paul Moore each tell one of their real estate investing nightmare scenarios. Not only are these stories spooky, painful, and entertaining in retrospect, but they offer some lessons for investors on what to look out for in their investing journies. --- Transcript   Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor . I'm Michael Albaum. And today we have what has now become known as a tradition on the podcast. We are doing our Halloween Horror Story episode. We did this last year was a lot of fun. We're doing it again this year. So I guess now it's definitely a tradition, we have to do it forward every Halloween going forward. So we have a couple spooky horror stories from some other investors we're gonna be sharing with you. So let's get into it.   All right, Heath, so tell us your spooky Halloween story.   Heath: Yeah, so as a somebody who's been investing in properties now for around 20 years, I've had my share of horror stories, from people dying and buildings to apparent ghosts that are hunting properties while I'm living in them in the middle of a renovation. But the one I'm going to focus on here was was probably I would say the, the scariest thing that happened to me in my early days of investing. So this is back in, I think it was 2004 when I was remodeling a garage on the first single family rental that I was living in and house hacking at the same time, 17 years ago.   When I bought the building, it was a bit rundown, you did a fair amount of work, and is going through, you know, remodel the top floor, found a contractor who was pretty solid, and he had a foreman on the job who I became pretty close with because he was there, you know, all the time, and I was living in the building at the time of the remodel. And once that was done, my very next project that I needed to do was to remodel the detached garage. So it was a detached garage that had some serious water issues, whenever it rained water was like pouring into the walls and there was a fair amount of rot and a significant amount of work needed to be completed.   At the time, some of the bids just came in a bit higher than I would have liked. And I didn't have the bandwidth to move the work forward. So I kind of put it on hold. And I don't know it was like six months later, the guy who was the foreman on the earlier job came by and he said hey, I know you wanted to remodel your garage. And hey, I just got my license. And I'm now a GC and I'm starting, you know, kicking off my own business and looks like you haven't done the work. I was driving bios in the neighborhood, I'd love to bid it, I can do a great job. So I said sure. And we you know, we got the work started.   And this was one of his early jobs as well. He ended up charging me a fair amount up front, I probably paid like 70% of the work, or 70% of the bid upfront before really getting deep into it. And they ended up demoing, he had a couple other guys who he brought on site, they demo the entire garage, garage, knocked out the roof knocked everything out. And next thing I know, they just stopped showing up.   So here I am, you know, in this, in this house that I'm living in, you know, there's just like debris everywhere. We're about to hit the rainy season again. And this whole thing is opened up, there's crap everywhere, they didn't even really have a dumpster and remove anything. They just kind of disappeared. And I didn't really understand what had happened. So I start playing, I'm trying to call him I don't I don't get a response. And I tried to reach out to people who I knew knew him no response. And then finally, a friend of mine said, Hey, if you looked at the newspaper, see what's going on, I think this is your guy. And it turned out that he that the contractor is using ended up being arrested under suspicion of being the 580 sniper.   There's somebody who was sitting on top of a mountain, you know, over the interstate 580 and shooting cars as they drove by. And it turned out that that person had, I believe was driving a white pickup truck. And maybe he matched the description of my contractor. But they ended up finding, you know, my contractor in a white pickup truck with a with a firearm in the vehicle. So this guy matches the description. And they arrested him. And then because they arrested him, they did go into his house. And at his house, they ended up finding some a couple other people living in his house, who maybe one of them had violated parole.   So So these were the guys who were the ones who are doing the work and my place. And they found a whole bunch of bomb making materials. Again, this is this is what's in the news. Right? So, you know, from my perspective, he was just a normal contractor you happen to have a car you have that, you know, it's all fine and and you have to have a lot of pipes and stuff at his house because the contractor does work. But the news blew this thing up into like, yeah, they arrested basically my GC and a couple people he was living with and it was a disaster. And I didn't know what to do. I was like, Hey, how do I move this thing forward that this place is a mess? There's no way I'm getting my money back.   Luckily, I did vet him beforehand and I had worked with him and he was a GC who was licensed and bonded. So I reached out to the Contractor State License Board in California. And then they get for any investor out there either. I recommend do your due diligence before you hire a contractor, make sure they're bonded, make sure they're insured, all that good stuff. So he was all of the above, I reached out and the Contractor State License Board, you know, they gave me all this paperwork. And they're basically like a, you're never supposed to pay more than 10% up front, you really should, you really should have paid all this money up front before the work started. But they went through all the details, you know, did an investigation.   Once again, I can't verify this. But one of the people in the CSLB basically said that they were afraid to go and interview him directly, because he was being held somewhere in jail, and they didn't really want to have to do an interview in jail, to get his side of the story. So in some ways, I think he really got screwed, I think I think it was I never followed up. But I highly doubt that he was the actual person who was doing this, he was a good guy, I worked with him on an earlier project. And when all this came out, he didn't really have an opportunity to defend himself or anything, but the CSLB did their investigation. And they ended up getting refunded for the portion that I paid him that was on incomplete and ended up finishing the work with somebody else.   But that experience going through the process of having my you know, my job abandoned on one of the first bigger jobs that I had ever done before and then hearing the news that he had been arrested for pretty serious and very scary a crime. It was intense and definitely was a that was sort of my first big horror story as a real estate investor.   Pierre: Alright, Mike, what is your horror story?   Michael: Alright, so this horror story involves actually my very first property that I ever purchased way back in the day, which seems like a lifetime and a half ago. So it was my first set of tenants actually, that I ever had in my first property. And I was I bought the property and it was vacant, and it was turnkey, it was ready to go. And I was just hounding my property manager, we gotta get it rented. We got to get it rented, we got to get it rented. And the timing was weird, cuz I think I closed like in November so and in Southern California, the weather isn't amazing as it normally is. So a little bit of a slowdown in the holiday months. And I just kept hounding her and honey, we got to get some we gotta get we gotta get some snow. So terrified. So she says, Okay, I have this, I have this tenants they applied. It's a mother and son. They aren't as qualified as I'd like them to be. There's a little bit a few kind of demerits here and there. But what do you think, as a good get them in there, I don't care. We just got to get someone paying rent. So we got him in there. And that was the beginning of the end.   So fast forward a couple months, I get a phone call from my property manager. The police have been called numerous times on these folks, that when the mom goes to work, the son is partying, when they're both home, the mom is yelling at neighbors making threats to neighbors just like everything you don't want to hear about your tenants doing. So then fast forward a couple of months, and I went on a European vacation with a buddy of mine. And when I landed in Europe, I got a Facebook message from the tenant from the son. And he writes me, he goes, Hey, but you know, your property manager is a criminal. She's doing all these things, she's robbing you blind is that the other thing and I'm like, Oh my god. So keep in mind, I've known this property manager. She's a good family friend. She's kind of who helped me get involved with real estate. My father knew her for forever. So she's just a good like a good human being above and beyond being a great family friend. And so like, there's no way that, you know, my property manager, she's robbing me blind, I think it's just a tenant who's pissed off. And I said, Thank you for letting me know, I appreciate it, please, you know, communicate through the property manager. I'm not trying to get involved here in a much more polite way. I communicated that.   And he was just writing constantly. I don't know I don't know how we got a hold of my contact information. But he somehow figured out who I was found me on Facebook and I started writing in your You're so stupid, she's robbing you blind. She's a criminal. We can't deal with her. She's, she's trying to kick us out. All this sounds like oh, my gosh, all the all the meanwhile, I'm forwarding this to my property manager be like, hey, these people are are bashing your name up and down the street. I don't know who else they're talking to. But like, I know that you're a wonderful person. She goes, oh my god, I'm so pissed. I'll take care of it. So I don't know if I mentioned but they also stopped paying rent. That was that was a caveat to all this. They stopped paying rent.   And so my property manager went to evict them. And then they just weren't leaving. And it was this whole thing. So fast forward a few more weeks, maybe a few more months. My property manager calls me she goes Michael, the house is trashed. There's human fecal matter smeared on the walls as they left the property. So it just like all the bad stuff you hear about, like happened all at once and on my first go at this owning rental property thing. So I said, you know, what do we do? And she goes well, we already kept that we're keeping their deposit obviously. She says you can go after them in small claims court because about $15,000 in damage.   And I was like yes great. Let's do that. So needless to say if anyone has had experiences small claims court they might be laughing to themselves right now thinking Oh, Michael, how naive of you thinking you're going to go get $15,000 from someone in small claims court but we try it anyhow cuz I didn't know any better. And we the judgment, we basically won the judgment. These folks didn't even appear they didn't show up in court. So the date got moved pushed out again. And it didn't show up again. And so basically made our case my property manager went, I paid her for time, we won the judgment. Okay, great, there's a very big difference between winning a judgment and actually collecting on that judgment. So now we have to go find these people.   And, and start to try to collect money for them. So now this person reaches back out to me, again, I can't believe you did this, we don't have any money, we're so poor, this sending their thing. And so I'm like, I just don't even respond to these people. We, my, my property manager finally reaches an agreement with these people. And I think they paid like $3,000 or $4,000, over the course of like two or three years, in increments. And I was like, it's like, you spend so much money on like, buy property manager going to court, and then just the court legal fees and the filing fees.   And it's just such a headache. And it occupies so much mental bandwidth and the money is gone. So it's a sunk cost at that point. But I was just so frustrated, and so mad at myself about these people out myself, because I went against my better judgment. And I really pushed my property manager to get someone in there. And she said, it was against her better judgment, too. But I was so forceful, and so scared that we just got somebody in there, and it ended up costing me big time. So I think the big, big, big takeaway for me is you got to listen to your gut. And if something doesn't feel right, if you're if you're seeing red flags, listen to those things. And and investigate those things further. And don't be so short term sighted. Because that's what cost me in the long run.   Pierre: Yeah, I mean, it's funny that I mean, these stories are really funny when we look back at it. But I'm sure it was a nightmare as you're going through them…   Michael: Yeah, very funny, Pierre!   Pierre: But it's interesting to me that I know this being your first property, it didn't scare you out of going back into more.   Michael: Yeah, it probably should have truth be told, it would have been very easy. And I don't think anyone would have would have knocked me for it or make fun of me or anything of that sort. But I think I was too naive to know that I should walk away. My property manager said, this isn't typical. This is very abnormal. And so let's just try to do better with the next one. And I said, Okay, that sounds good. So, part of me is glad that I, I don't think it really hit me about how frustrating it was.   And part of it too, is that the process took so long. So everyone listening is getting it in a five minute compressed version. But this is happening over months, and even years. And so to get to the end result, I had already done other stuff. I had already made other investments. And so it was it was which I think is great. It made it tougher for me to just walk away from it all saying, oh, man, that sucked. I guess this whole investing thing is is a kaput idea because I was having success with these other investments   Pierre: That makes sense.   Michael: So, again, just word to the wise. Listen, listen to your gut. Keep an eye out for those red flags. Be be aware of what you're getting into a small claims court and just go hard in the paint.   Pierre: Thanks, Mike.   Michael: You got it.   All right, Paul. So take it away with your Halloween Horror Story.   Paul: Man, did I ever tell you guys what my favorite investment was?   Michael: Yeah, I don't think so. No.   Paul: My favorite investment is mobile home parks. I love investing in mobile home parks. I only wish I would have joined Sam Zelle, America's most successful billionaire real estate investor decades ago. In discovering this amazing asset class mobile home parks. Sam Zelle has over 155,000 mobile home park pads in his company and he's a billionaire and he's just it's just an asset class that's been long overlooked and mostly scorned or ignored. I know of people who have mobile home parks they say they used to go to parties and people would say what do you do a mobile home by Okay, where's where's the hors d'oeuvres?   But my least favorite investment on the planet is mobile homes. Mobile homes are my like, I've got three horror stories with mobile homes. I wish I would have quit after the first one because man what a nightmare. And so I'm going to tell you one of those mobile home horror stories today if that's okay with you guys.   Michael: Yeah, it sounds great.   Paul: Yeah, so I was I had a friend I had this idea wouldn't it be cool to renovate some of those like a mobile home and like put it on a lot and you know, set it up and then rent it lease it as a home you know, put a permanent foundation on etc, etc. So I got a double wide and it had been somewhat trashed, it only it was only like three years old. But mobile home tenants aren't always the very best tenants and sometimes they don't take a lot of ownership. They don't take a lot of pride in their place. And so I decided I was going to somehow be smart and do a lease to own on it. So it wouldn't just be a rental.   And so I got this mobile home doublewide and put it about an hour and a half from my house, found a lot there, it already had, well, septic driveway, set it up. And then I started getting friends who were between jobs, I just happen to know a couple people between jobs to start renovating it. Now, I found out something when I tried to build some houses, I found out that it's not smart to build a house if you don't know how to tighten the doorknob on your own house. And that's why I think people, you know, really appreciate companies like Roofstock, you know, who have experts do this kind of stuff for them.   But anyway, I had these couple guys who were doing the renovations, they were driving an hour and a half from Roanoke, Virginia, way down into the sticks of southwest Virginia. And they and for some reason this thing took like a year to renovate. I don't know how you can take a year to renovate a mobile home, but somehow it did. And so we finally got somebody moved in. And we actually made it into a lease to own.   And so it was a couple who had just moved from a state or two away. And they signed a rent to own agreement. And basically it said that they would make payments, rental payments for three years. And then they hopefully their credit would be to the right place where they could just buy the house. I thought, Okay, not bad.   So I was pretty excited about this. And they started making payments. And they made payments for one year, two years, three years. And then they just kept making payments. And so I was kind of hands off busy with my other business, I didn't pay much attention, the payments just kept coming in. And so finally I reached out to the lady. And I said, Hey, you were supposed to close on this, you know, rent to own? And she said, Yeah, we just we couldn't get our credit score to the right place. So do you mind if we just keep renting till we do. And of course, you know, when you got a good tenant who's only missed maybe like one payment in three years. You want to keep them.   So I said, sure. I'll work with you. So this went on your four year, five years, six years seven, year eight. And they had fortunately made a good number of payments, you know, as far as a percentage of what I had in it at that point. But then I didn't I didn't get a payment. And then I missed a second. I missed a third. And I realized, Wait, something's going on. And so I called her. And she said, Yeah, we broke up. And I moved back to Baltimore. And I thought you wouldn't mind, I went ahead and leased it. I sub leased it to a section eight tenant. And I said, you went through the effort of getting a section eight sub lease and you didn't, you didn't call me or anything. She said now she goes, I'm like two states away now. Can you go check on it? And I said, oh boy.   So I got there. And it was like a warzone this place. So I only checked on once or twice in eight years. It was like unbelievable. I don't even know what happened. The people were gone. All the appliances were missing. There were scratches and scrapes all over the wall. And I looked at the evidence on the floor. And let me say it was disgusting. I tell you, I mean, this story, I don't know who was involved. Exactly. But I know it involved a dog or dogs. I know it involved a baby or babies. And I know and involve alcohol, more than likely alcoholics.   And this was it was unbelievable. I don't even know how you could do this much damage to your own enemy. It was like some kind of war criminal camp. And like they just went around for like what would possess somebody who wasn't even paying their rent at all to want to destroy someone else's property? I never met these people. I never knew their name. But I went in there and I calculated you know, okay, so this place was in like not that bad a shape. Eight years ago when it took us a year to renovate it. I think it would probably take 117 years to renovate right now.   So I did the calculations, I actually had a contractor out there. And everybody was just like shaking their head, this is beyond salvaging. And so I ended up paying, I think it was like $1,000 to have it hauled away to the junkyard. And I ended up selling this lot, by the way I was supposed to make $60,000 63,000 maybe when it closed, and I ended up selling the lot for $15,000.   That's my Halloween Horror Story. Like I said, I've had four mobile homes over the years, and three were disasters at almost this scale. And the fourth one was my mom's. But seriously, I really don't like leasing mobile homes, it sounds like a great idea on paper, and even sounds a great idea to get these used mobile homes and push them into a park. If you can find a mobile home park and then sub or you know, lease them to tenants. And then you're the tenant of the park, I actually did that once and had multiple, like it was trashed, this old home was trashed multiple times, we finally hauled it off to the dump as well. And so not a great business, especially if you don't like being a landlord, which I don't.   Pierre: Is there a moral of the story other than don't invest in mobile homes?   Paul: If you're going to manage your own properties, you've got to be intense about it. You've got to you know, give them the impression, you know, I'm not taking any crap from you are not going to you know, you're going to pay on time and in full, I'm going to evict the day you don't I mean, I think that I've come to a conclusion that with real estate, and this is controversial, and I don't think a lot of people are going to like what I'm going to say, but I've concluded that you either need to be fully involved, intensely involved, treat it like a business, actively managing it, or you've got to completely outsource it to an expert.   I think a lot of folks and I talked to investors every week, and I talked to quite a number of investors, who say that when they try to go in and do something on the side, like they tried to build up, like this dentist I was talking about talking to he said, Yeah, I'm building a 20 home portfolio to replace my income. And I'm so excited about replacing it in. And then he took a deep sigh and he said, kind of exhausted talking, talking to painters between oral surgeries and screening tenants in the evening, and I'm getting tired already. And I'm only on house number three.   And I talked to a lot of people like that. And so I think it's really important that you find someone to outsource this type of stuff to if you're focused on either a great career, or hopefully a family or retirement. It's it's hard to juggle that. And I hear frequently people say, Man, this has just become like a second job. And sometimes the returns aren't as what you know, aren't as high as they expected either. So I think it's really important that people find somebody to outsource to if they want to get in real estate or do it full time.   Michael: It's so important for folks that are self managing really look at the the ROI on their time, and what they're actually paying themselves or what they're saving as compared to outsourcing. For me, that 10% That I'm paying every month is like the best 10% I've ever paid to buy back my time.   Paul: Exactly. Totally agree. Yep. That's a really good point.   Michael: Paul, this was great. As always, thank you so much. And we look forward to talking with you soon.   Paul: Man. It's always great to see you guys appreciate you and thanks for having me on again. Happy Halloween.   Pierre: Thanks, Paul.   Michael: Happy Halloween.   Alrighty, everyone, that was our episode. I hope that these stories just provide you with some great fodder and some takeaways. Lessons learned not to scare you away from real estate investing, but rather to help you learn from our mistakes going forward. We hope you enjoyed the episode. We look forward to seeing the next one and as always, Happy investing

What you'll learn in this episode: What charnel houses and ossuaries are, and why they were an important part of people's spiritual lives Why the Catholic Church decorated hundreds of Roman skeletons with jewels in the 17th century Why 17th century nuns were some of the most skilled yet unrecognized jewelers of their day How art and jewelry can help us explore death and other touchy subjects About Paul Koudounaris Paul Koudounaris is an author and photographer based in Los Angeles. He holds a PhD in Art History from the University of California, and he has traveled around the world to document charnel houses, ossuaries, pet cemeteries, and other macabre subjects for both academic and popular journals. His books include The Empire of Death, Memento Mori, and Heavenly Bodies, which features the little-known skeletons taken from the Roman Catacombs in the seventeenth century and decorated with jewels by teams of nuns. His most recent book is A Cat's Tale: A Journey Through Feline History. Additional Resources: Instagram Photos: Rorschach upper half, chest with skull  Hergiswil stomach full shot Weyarn head with problem here due to discoloration behind skull due to back lighting through stained glass window Sonntagsberg felic chest detail Bad Schussenried head and chest Peterskirche munditia in shrine three problems, top over curtain over rope and weird candle Transcript: Today, covering a skeleton with jewels seems odd or downright morbid. In the 17th century, it was par for the course for the Catholic Church, which covered the skeletons of martyrs with jewels and lavish accessories to highlight the Church's power. Author and photographer Paul Koudounaris has spent years researching and documenting these little-known historic treasures, which he detailed in his book Heavenly Bodies: Cult Treasures & Spectacular Saints from the Catacombs. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the skeletons (and human remains generally) were an important part of people's spiritual lives; why nuns were responsible for decorating the jeweled skeletons; and why the Catholic Church's efforts to honor martyrs didn't exactly go as it intended. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Paul, I'm thinking: you have a PhD in art history, so you're a historian skilled in doing research. A lot of what you're talking about isn't just looking at something; it sounds like you had to do a lot of digging. Were the things you were talking about, the traditions and things, was this just passed down and the clergymen knew about it when you came to town, or did you have to go find original documents? Paul: I had to go back to a lot of original source material. Obviously, a lot of this stuff is forgotten about now. I did a lot of digging. It was a good couple of years of very solid research, mostly in Germany. This is very obscure information, but it was rewarding information. When you do research like this, it's like a jigsaw puzzle in getting all the pieces back into place. In the end, you never get all the pieces; you never wholly fill out the puzzle, but I feel like I did a good job of filling in about 98 percent of the puzzle of those skeletons. Sharon: I'm sure you know more than anybody else on earth about this. For all of your books, you've done the photography. Were you into photography before this? Paul: I had played around with photography a little bit before, but not professionally. When I did my first book, The Empire of Death, I actually didn't want to do the photos for the book. I wanted someone else to do them because I wanted to be able to concentrate on the research, and I didn't want to get too distracted by the photos. I wanted to walk into an old charnel house and be able to concentrate on understanding it as a space rather than immediately running in and looking it as a photographer. In the end, there was no one who could do the photos for me. There was no one who wanted to take that trip and get involved, so, I was forced into the position of doing it. In the end, by both doing the photos and researching them, I understood them all the better. It didn't distract me; I think it actually helped me focus on them.  After I had done that book, there was no question that I was going to do the photos for the rest of my books. I liked working that way. I did all the photos for Heavenly Bodies. Photographically it was a very hard task because a lot of them are in cases, so they can't be removed from these glass cases without destroying a lot. It was very difficult, but again very rewarding. I'd like to think by doing it myself and really understanding it, it allowed me to get pictures that, to me, looked more sympathetic than clinical. It might be hard to explain that without looking at other people's photos, but a lot of times, I felt that by taking the photos, I'd strive for a sense of personality because each of them had something to convey. I felt very close to them by the end of this work; maybe not close to them, but close to the people who once venerated them and those nuns who created them. Sharon: I could understand how that would be. In the beginning, you were talking about how you got your PhD in art history and you were looking for the niche. How did you stumble on this death niche?  Paul: I studied at UCLA. I was probably the Fox Mulder of the art history department. I was always the guy who, while everybody else was working on Rembrandt, I'd go off and do a seminar paper about wood cuts of werewolves or something like that. It was the things that were not considered high art and were not considered masterpieces. I was always into these things that were visual culture for common people and visual culture that had been pushed to the margins just because we consider it hokey or unseemly. I was always into that kind of stuff. I was not working on the death stuff while I was in grad school. That came later to me, when I was traveling around Europe and I understood this massive part of people's lives that we had pushed out of the history books just because we were uncomfortable with it, and when I understood the incredibly important role it played in people's spiritual lives to have these bones around. I do want to talk a little bit about the materials that went into the skeleton, if that's O.K. Sharon: Yes, please. Paul: I think that's important because people always ask me, “Are these real jewels or are these replicas?” They want to talk about the materials, and I think this can relate to your audience. In most cases, they are glass replicas rather than real rubies or things like that, but there's a reason for that. When I say they are replicas, a lot of them think, “O.K., it must be cheap,” and it's not. Nature provides what it provides, and it might not provide the materials we need in perfect shapes and sizes and patterns. So, if you were to decorate a skeleton just with real jewels found in nature, it would be very, very hard to match things up to get a perfect pattern and a perfect flow of material. That is a big part of the reason they were using glass replicas, but when I say glass replicas, I don't mean cheap. I don't mean going down to Hobby Lobby or Michael's and buying junk like people would today. There were very few glass-blowers in Europe who could make presentation-quality replicas of real jewels. They were located in the Czech Republic, in Bohemia and in Venice, and they were very, very expensive. When I say replicas, I don't mean cheap. If you look at the skeletons and you see these perfect patterns of similarly shaped jewels with a similar sheen to them, that's because they're replicas, but they would use replicas so they could complete a decorative pattern perfectly rather than relying on what nature could provide.  A lot of them you'll see are wearing what looked like wigs. Those wigs are super important. Those wigs are made of gold and silver wire. Talk about incredible expense. There was only one place in Europe that could make wire in the finest of hair, and it was in Lyon, France. They would have to get this wire made out of silver. The reason they would use this gold and silver wire, this metallic wire and precious metal, to make these wigs for them was because they wanted them to stand the test of time. Let's say I got a nice wig made out of horsehair or something. That would be pretty durable. It's still not going to last 300 years and hold its shape, is it? No way. But a wig made of coiled precious metal wire will stand the test of time, and it will maintain its shape for hundreds of years. That's why a lot of them still have these perfect curls, because they're made out of this incredibly expensive metal wire. These were really, really expensive productions to make. Even when they were made of replicas, they were incredibly expensive.  One question I constantly got asked when the book came out—whenever I did a talk, someone would ask, “How much would this cost to make in modern terms?” I never came up with a satisfactory answer for that because it's hard enough to say, “Well, today's dollar versus dollars in 1950,” and that can be kind of deceiving. Now, let's talk about today's dollars versus guilder in 1612. You're talking not just about converting currencies through a vast amount of time, you're also talking about a different economic system. You're talking about a system back then where you had incredibly rich people and everybody else was incredibly poor. Even if I said, “O.K., if you base it on such and such, maybe it costs $2 million to make,” that's still incredibly deceptive because nowadays, over the course of your lifetime, an average person might make $2 million. Back then, an average person who's out there picking carrots is going to make $2 million in a hundred lifetimes. So, these were extremely expensive even when they were replicas.   Sharon: I'm backtracking a little bit. Were they mixing real jewels with these glass jewels? Would the nuns send an order to the glassblower and say, “I need one this size”? Paul: It could be. Some of them are real jewels. A lot of times, they might use a real jewel for an accent. A lot of them have pearls. Even the pearls are fake, but the pearls are faked to be the exact same size, because nature doesn't provide pearls in equally identical sizes. But again, even the pearls that were fake were incredibly expensive to make because you had to start with a perfect, handmade glass jewel, then they had to make a covering for it to get the sheen of a pearl. They had to make the covering out of ground fish paste and paint over this ground fish paste to seal it so it would soak in. It was incredibly expensive.  One advantage was when these skeletons came to town, they were a big deal and they were going to be venerated, so a lot of wealthy people wanted to be a part of them. You might have a local duchess or duke or local count or baron donate things for the skeleton. They might donate authentic jewelry; they might donate authentic jewels, and they might donate clothing, too. You'll notice a lot of them aren't just jeweled. A lot of them are jeweled, but they also have what looks like outfits on them. Those outfits were donated by local nobility, and then the nuns would tailor them to perfectly fit the skeletons and make cutouts to show the bone. It's funny, because if you were into high fashion at the time, you would walk in and esteem these skeletons as wearing yesterday's clothes. It would be like, “That guy's a couple of years out of season,” because the nobility will donate fancy, expensive clothes for the skeleton's use, but they're not going to donate the clothes they just bought. They're not going to donate their own clothes. If you were a real nitpicker and you were into high fashion at the time, if you had an eye for it, “Yeah, that look on that skeleton is really last year.” That also would help to flesh out—pardon the pun—the decoration of the skeleton, giving them some extra materials. One other thing I think is very touching about these skeletons: a lot of them are wearing rings on their skeletal fingers. The rings often would be donated by the nuns when they were done. You mentioned the nuns, obviously, were very trustworthy and loved the skeletons. When they finished, before they put them on display, the nun had a special ring or a ring that was a family heirloom. She would donate it to the skeleton and put it on his finger. What the nuns donated, these rings, that became kind of their artist's signature, even though the meaning of it is kind of opaque to us. That became their signature, by donating something to the skeleton that would be there when it went on display.    Sharon: Could you tell there was a pattern? There are so many questions I can go through. When you talk about these rings as a signature, did you keep seeing the same ring over and over, or the did the ring have an initial? Paul: While the nuns were donating their rings, each ring was unique. Those rings were often things that had been passed down their families, like family heirlooms, so each ring would be unique. I became good enough in looking at these skeletons that I was able to tell you the same people worked on this skeleton too. I could tell you that; it's not that hard to tell. Your listeners who are really into jewelry, I'm sure they'll know. It's like, “O.K., when I see a wire bent that way and this done to fix it, I know who did that, because there are certain technical aspects that become signature moves.” There were certain convents in Europe that were particularly famous, that were well-known for doing handwork. They might work on several of them, so I was able to tell, “O.K., these people did this skeleton too,” or “Somebody from that convent worked on part of this one, but not all of it.” You could tell just by those signature, little things about the way they would wind the wire or the way they would set in the jewels. Sharon: Did the nuns make the silver and gold wigs? Paul: They would have to bend it. Not all of these were made by nuns. There were some. I should point that out in fairness to my gender. There were some that were done by men, but the vast majority was done by nuns. The most famous group that still exists is in Waldsassen Basilica in Germany. Waldsassen Basilica has 10 of these skeletons, and they are all on display in the church. It's like the Sistine Chapel of jeweled skeletons. The vast majority of those 10—I think it's eight of those 10—were all done by one guy who was a lay brother at the basilica who was also a professional jeweler and a smith. I mentioned some of them would also be in suits of armor instead of being jeweled. The ones that are armored, that armor was pretty much universally made for them by men. Smith work was men's work. Sharon: Wow! How many books have you written? Paul: Four. Sharon: Four books. I'm thinking about all the effort and research and photography that go into one book, let alone writing four of them. So, The Empire of Death, you finished it, and you had the photos you showed the commissioning editor. What more did you learn as you went along, besides the fact that there were skeletons, about the empire of death or the way we view death? Did you think, “I want to say more about this after The Empire of Death”? Paul: The Empire of Death is really a history book, and it's a history of charnel houses. It's not one of these guides to the history of death. It is an art historical tome, and the genre of art is just art in bone. I started on The Empire of Death and then I wrote Heavenly Bodies, and then I wrote a book called Memento Mori, which was a more global exploration because I had been traveling around the world photographing skeletons and bones in ritual contexts. I've got to say it took me about 10 years of work to even truly understand what I mean when I use the word death. When you ask this question about what I learned, I learned a lot, but it was a very slow process. Death is the hardest thing for any of us to contemplate, and oftentimes the most troubling thing for any of us to contemplate. It took me a really long time to understand what lay underneath all that material I was working on. I was working on all this death material, but in the end, I think I came out with a better appreciation of it and understanding. Sharon: Wow! Contemplating death, yes, that is a very difficult topic. We can imagine, but we can't really know. You're a member of the Order of the Good Death. What is that? Paul: The Order of the Good Death is not some kind of heretical, worrisome order. It's not some secret society. It's just a group of scholars and researchers and artists who work on death material. It was founded by a famous mortician, as famous as a mortician could be, I guess I should say, by the name of Caitlin Doughty, who has three New York Times-bestselling books about the way we deal with death in our society. She put this together as a think tank or a group to bring together people who were working within society to broaden our perspectives on death. None of us are out there wanting to die, and we are all hot and bothered by the idea of passing away, but at the same time, we need an acceptance of it, a more positive attitude towards nature as a natural process.  Sharon: Do you have to be invited? Can I get a membership card? How does that work? Paul: No, there's no membership card. There are no meetings. It's funny because of the name. It intrigues people. The term “good death” is an old term. It just means to pass well, to pass with grace and to pass in a meaningful and positive way. That's why she used that term. No, you can't. You don't fill out an application online, and there are no membership cards. There are no meetings. It's a very informal group. It's Caitlin's thing. If she feels that someone is doing work that she thinks fits in with her basic objective of broadening our western perspectives of death, she would like that person to join. Sharon: O.K., so she's the one I have to talk to. Now, let me ask you this. Maybe I have the order wrong, but it looks like your most recent book was A Cat's Tale. Is that correct? Do I have that right?  Paul: Yeah, that book came out this past November. That was my last book. I switched from death to writing about cats. Sharon: Why was that? That's what I wanted to ask. It's like, oh my gosh, is that the same person? Paul: It's the same person. Underlying all of it, there are some similarities. Cats also have been pushed to the margins of history. That's a much longer discussion, but when you ask people about feline history or famous cats who are not internet stars, like famous cats from history, they'll pretty much draw a blank. They'll tell you, “They were big in ancient Egypt, right?” That's about all they know. Of course, cats also have a great background in occult lore, so there are some similarities underlying the cat research and the death stuff. It's just something I wanted to do. I felt that cats, if you read the book—and the book is not technically written by me. The book is technically written by my cat. It says “By Baba the Cat as told to me,” so I'm the transcriber as she reinterprets human history from the cat point of view and puts the cat back into its place. It was just something I wanted to do.  If you or your audience find pictures from that book, they'll realize something: that it's also an illustrated book. My cat happens to be a supermodel. I had been messing around with those photo projects for a long time, making costumes for my cat because she'll wear them; she'll model and she's good. I was making a Marie Antoinette costume for her and things like that, and these were amazing pictures. So, it's like, “Well, I've got to do something with these pictures. Is there some way to put them into book form?” I thought at one point about doing a fashion guide for cats by my cat to show these looks, and then I was like, “No, wait a minute. Let's do a real book, something that will mean something to people.” So, I came up with this idea of a feline history from the perspective of a cat. It's really an emotional book, because cats have had a rough time. Yes, they were big in ancient Egypt. They were also a persecuted and hated animal at one time, and she pulls no punches. She tells you all the highs and all the lows and brings you up to the modern day and the place that cats hold in our lives. So, yes, that is by me. That was the last book. To be honest, from my perspective, being in collaboration with my cat, it's actually my favorite. Sharon: Say that again.  Paul: It's actually my favorite since it's a collaboration with my cat. It's basically a 200-page love letter to my cat. Sharon: Did she like jewelry? That's the most important question. Paul: Well, there's a lot of jewelry as you'll see. Sharon: O.K. What's your next book then? Paul: I would really like to write a history of pet cemeteries.  Sharon: Oh, interesting. Paul: That combines all of it, doesn't it? Death stuff and the cat's back into play. A history of pet cemeteries and famous animal memorials and the way we memorialize our animals. Pet cemeteries have a very interesting history. At this point, I probably know more about them than anyone in the world. I've photographed more of them than anyone in the world, too. I've gone all the way to New Zealand and Australia photographing animal graves. It's a book I had actually started. I had all the research done, and I was going make that my fourth book. Then the idea for the cat book came along, and it's like, “I'm going to sell a lot more copies of the cat book than I am a pet cemetery book in the end.” Think about this: if I mixed the order and did the cat book after, it would have a sticker on it that says, “New cat book by the guy who wrote the cemetery book that hardly anybody ever read,” or it can have a sticker on it that says, “A book about the history of pet cemeteries by this guy who wrote this famous cat book.” You know what I mean? I thought it might help to do the cat book first, so that was part of the thinking. Also I just really wanted to do this cat book at the time, because I love working with my cat.  Sharon: It sounds like you have a good partnership. Paul, thank you so much for being with us today. Do you have a favorite place to buy your books? Do you want them to go on Amazon? Does it matter to you, or is it just what people want? Paul: It doesn't matter to me. On a human level, I always tell people, “Hey, if you can support a local independent store, that's great. If you don't want to, it doesn't make any difference to me where people buy the books.” If they want to buy any of the books, I'm flattered. Thank you, but it doesn't make any difference. Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us today. Paul: Thank you. We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

Paul and Craig talk about Craig's newest project: his book Conscious Life Conscious Death! Transcript Transcribed by AI (not 100% accurate) [00:00:00] This is the two guys talking Fresno podcast, the podcast with two guys talking about Fresno. Your hosts are Craig sharp, a lifelong Fresno who loves his community, even though it drives him bonkers and Paul gin, a transplant Freston, who's lived in Fresno for more years than he has it. And he wouldn't live anywhere else. It's time for two guys to talk Fresno. Here's Craig and Paul on the two guys talking Fresno podcast. Paul: Here we are long time. No, see Craig. I know, Craig: but I'm wearing the same shirt today. One of those pictures, I only have two shirts. So I guess the odds are that I'd be wearing the same shirt Paul: I do too. I'm wearing my Fresno Grizzlies Like this is an old school, Fresno baseball. T-shirt from way back when, and it's perfectly comfortable. Oh, it's the perfect, [00:01:00] t-shirt perfectly Craig: new crying. You cry when you first feel that first hole or see that the seams are starting to go. Paul: Yeah, I've got a couple that I still have the hole in, but I'm still keeping them anyway because it just feels so nice to wear. So, but then with two guys talking Fresno, I can act like this is theme oriented rather than comfort, so right. Have Craig: you planned Paul: it ahead? Yes, exactly. So we haven't done a lot of podcasts lately, but here we are back and we're going to jump back into it. Craig: That's good. Yeah, we both needed a little break last year was, uh, not only COVID but politics and all that stuff. And I think we were just worn out. Paul: Yeah, I think, I think we needed that debrief time. Everybody needed that. And then it kind of ran its course. And I, I think we got through the election and that guy wasn't reelected and we all kind of yeah, Craig: yeah. [00:02:00] Until January. Paul: Yeah. It's not to say there wasn't craziness in the midst there, but, uh, and still is, but the good news is we're going to get back to talking a little bit more about Fresno. We had to talk COVID we had to talk politics and now we can talk forever. Craig: Yeah, well, we had to some of our, uh, great, uh, listeners or Watchers, you know, commenting saying more Fresno stuff, more Fresno stuff. So that was a good reminder for us. And we do listen to your comments or read your comments and, and take that to heart. And that's what we started for. So you just brought us back to where we meant. Yeah. Paul: And if people have ideas, post them on our Facebook page or send us an email through the website to guys fresno.com and let us know what you'd like for us to talk about, because we are getting back to being two guys talking about Fresno. And today, Craig, I'm really excited because we're going to talk [00:03:00] to a great Fresno author. He's fairly new to the, uh, the, the title of author, but it's been coming for quite a while, but he's very well known by presidents, Craig: right? Well, we will see you're turning the tables on me. Paul: I wrote my book. I got to be a guest on the show and today our very, very special guest is author Craig Sharpton. Welcome to the show, Craig. Craig: Thanks Paul. It's a, it's an interesting process. That's for sure. Paul: Go ahead. Craig: Well, I always, you know, I, every time someone becomes an author, I always say there's, you know, 98% of the people are working on a book and there's a few that, that actually get it to be a product. And I always admired that people. So, uh, but I've got to say, it's, it's a weird feeling. When you say you're one of them, you see your baby in [00:04:00] print. It's very strange. Isn't it? It Paul: sure is. And the book is called conscious life conscious death. It's a, that's an intriguing title for sure. Do you have it with you? Can you hold it up? Craig: I said, so lighthearted comedy, a little, Paul: little tome conscious life, conscious death.

Paul McDowall and Catherine Clark were neighbors when they founded ClarkMcDowall, a 21-year-old agency that with “intelligence and imagination” architects growth for “visionary companies.” Originally starting with big clients Catherine “inherited” from her previous employer, the agency had to put in effort to bring on the startups and mid-size companies that keep an agency nimble, fresh, and entrepreneurial – where there is a higher chance of “getting stuff done.”  Paul says the agency's most productive relationships come with clients that want to think ahead and think differently, make changes and do something different, and push boundaries – that these companies have a “sophistication in the way they think, but also a progressive way of thinking about their own industry or their own business.” Catherine notes that the human side is important to the mix and that today's clients are far more savvy about marketing and innovation than they were even six years ago. Brand-architecting involves broad-scope innovation in such activities as creating new brands, amplifying “rising star brands,” and transforming legacy brands for visionary clients by changing brand strategy, purpose, or positioning. The agency's brand expression work covers verbal expression (naming/ messaging) and visual expression (visual ID, packaging, design across the whole ecosystem, and web, video, and social components). Catherine says, “Architecting a brand is really about getting into what it stands for and then really thinking about how that impacts in all the ways it expresses itself.” As an example of client work, Catherine talks about the agency's multi-year effort with the Oklahoma City Thunder NBA team; addressing such issues as – What is their purpose? Why do they exist? How do they uniquely do things? What is it they actually do? – and then thinking how that manifests in the organization's operations – a campaign, a tagline, player experience, how a new player is greeted . . . or about the arena itself and the experience of the arena. Paul extends the scope by mentioning that these things include the internal culture as well, “how they talk to each other” and “how they hire.” Although ClarkMcDowall is based in New York City, the 2020 Covid lockdown forced the agency to rethink its organization. Catherine talks about the tension that comes with change . . . and the agency's decision to “Just go hybrid and start building it.” Today, the agency uses different systems, different ways of hiring, and different ways of working than in the past . . . and has a strong focus on creating a work environment that is less transactional and more about people's lives. About 25% of the agency's 25 employees work remotely – across the country.  Catherine says all this change has come with some nice surprises (and these are quotes): The more we allow people to try to find their own rhythm and their own environment, the more we're able to retain them and get the best out of them. I feel like we're even truer to ourselves in our values. We've really doubled down on the way that we treat people, the way that we integrate into our community, some of the pro bono stuff that we're doing.  There's this weird thing that the more you innovate, in a way, the easier it is to be true to yourself. You have to change a lot in order to really notice that anchor that you have. Catherine and Paul can be reached on their agency's website at:  clarkmcdowall.com or on LinkedIn. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by a duo, Paul McDowall and Catherine Clark. They're both Founding Partners at ClarkMcDowall, based in New York City. Welcome to the podcast. PAUL: Thank you. CATHERINE: Thanks for having us. We're very excited to be here. ROB: It's very excellent to have you here. Maybe you could start off by telling us about ClarkMcDowall and about what it is that makes the firm unique. CATHERINE: We call ourselves brand architects. I guess we'll start there with the unique piece. Just to be tangible for everybody who might be listening in, that means we do a bunch of things. We create new brands, we amplify what we would call “rising star brands,” and then we transform legacy brands for clients that we would consider to be visionary clients who are really looking for some change. What does that mean? It means we offer services like brand strategy, brand purpose, positioning, architecture. We also do a lot of innovation work, as that is also part of architecting those brands. Finally, we do brand expression work, whether that's verbal expression like naming/messaging or visual expression like vis ID packaging, designing across the whole ecosystem, web, video, social. There's about 25 people in our agency. Our roots and our base are in New York City, but we are hybrid. We also have talent across the country. I think what makes us unique is – we phrase it as “intelligence and imagination,” and I'm sure Paul will jump in and add to that, but it's really born from the partnership that Paul and I have. I'm a strategist originally and Paul is a creative originally, and we both own 50% of this business. It's very much about the fusion of two sides of our business that are usually not seen in equal partnership very much in the agency landscape. PAUL: Yeah. We got to the intelligence and imagination – for a while we were talking about “we have strategy brains and creative brains working together,” and it sounded a little clunky. It also felt quite limiting as well. It feels as though creatives can't think and then strategists don't have a creative thought. It's just not true. The idea of intelligence and imagination is something that we do collectively as a team. It's not one team, one person owns that. It's everybody, whether it's the strategists, whether it's the creatives, but also whether it's our client experience team, whether it's our marketing team, ops team, whoever it is. That's how we think and how we approach life. It's a broader philosophy which has stood us in good stead for the last, gosh, 21 years, Catherine. CATHERINE: It's been a journey. PAUL: Yeah. Awesome journey. ROB: Congratulations on that alone. That's quite a journey. You mentioned building brand architecture. When someone goes to your website and looks at the range of brands that are on there, we see quite an array of impressive top-level name brands. How does that play out? I imagine you can talk about some of those brands that are on the site. What does brand architecture look like for one of those examples that we might see looking at the firm? CATHERINE: I could pick a couple of examples. Architecting a brand is really about getting into what it stands for and then really thinking about how that impacts in all the ways it expresses itself. One client we like to talk about a lot is the Oklahoma City Thunder NBA team. We worked with them for a number of years, really helping define their purpose, why they exist, how they uniquely do things, what it is they actually do, and then thinking about how that manifests in all kinds of ways. It could be a campaign, a tagline, some visuals. It could also be the player experience. How do you greet a new player when they show up at your team? Or it could be about the arena itself and what the experience is like. PAUL: Even their internal culture as well, how they talk to each other, how they hire. It's from the inside out. Sorry, Catherine. CATHERINE: No, no problem, Paul. This is our two heads thinking together, like we do. [laughter] So that's how we would talk about being brand architects. It's actually a little bit like an architect thinks about creating a building that is influencing the way people live their lives, the way they interact with each other, the way that building leaves a mark on the landscape. It's really bringing a lot of things together. Another manifestation of our work might be some work we did with Starbucks, restaging Evolution Fresh, which is their juice brand that was doing really well. They had this incredible, beautiful design, actually, that won some awards. But then the whole landscape changed around them. That's what happens when we get brought in to do brand transformation. It's like, “Hey, we've got this thing. It was doing great and now it's hit a wall.” We would help them from the get-go in terms of understanding, what is the problem? Who is your audience? How do we change the way you position yourself and tell your story? Then we're able to bring it to life. In that particular instance, it was mainly packaging. The packaging was their main source of communication; they didn't have any advertising. So that's where we applied all our efforts, into the visual expression, and it turned their business around. They went from major decline to double-digit growth. PAUL: They were getting delisted. Even from their own Starbucks stores, they were getting delisted. That's how dire the situation was. Through the work we launched, they were doing double-digit growth. They had the biggest growth I think they'd seen in the brand itself, and actually outpacing the category itself. So a pretty dramatic transformation. ROB: What was the timing of your engagement with Oklahoma City? Were you there right when they were moving and that transition? Was part of the brand design around the new team name? Or was it downstream from there? CATHERINE: Downstream. We came in at the Kevin Durant free agency time. I can't say too much about all of that, but you can imagine that that team was going through a lot of soul-searching in terms of what they stood for, and if that player was going to leave – which he ended up leaving – how do you make sure you define that team so that it has a real sense of purpose, regardless of the outcome they can't control? So we came in at that point and really helped them articulate what makes them different. And as Paul was saying, impacting their culture internally. They made this incredible bounce-back as soon as he left. And they're always changing and there's always players coming in, coming out. How, with a brand like that, do you help them to find what they stand for, agnostic of the players that might be there, knowing that the players are actually a huge part of the experience? So trying to create some stability and a sense of agency, if you like, for themselves outside of wins and losses and players. PAUL: I think it's interesting. They have a very progressive team way of thinking. I'm impressed with the GM, who we worked closely with and Catherine has a very good relationship with. He's super thoughtful about everything, not wanting to be just another sports team or thinking like another sports team. I think they're the folks that we do really well with, those clients that really want to push the boundary, thinking ahead – not just reflecting the status quo – and wanting to do something different, wanting to make a change, wanting to think differently, wanting to think fresh. There's a sophistication in the way they think, but also a progressive way of thinking about their own industry or their own business. We create wonderful, productive relationships with folks that are wired that way just because we're wired that way as well. CATHERINE: Just to build on that, a lot of agencies in our business are used to helping their clients narrow down their bull's-eye, target audience and all those good things. We've had to do the same thing over the years and say, “Hey, what kind of clients do we work best with?” Because you can't be everything to everyone. That's really been the thread: people who we consider to be visionary, who really want to do something different, transcend their category, push the boundaries, but at the same time have this very human side to them. We're a very casual agency in terms of how we present ourselves and how we work with people. So there's a real human side. We know we do better with clients that want that very personal, intimate relationship versus clients who are maybe looking for a big agency with lots of fancy style of working. We're in a category where there's lots of different people doing different things, and if you can really define your niche, you're more likely to be successful and be able to focus on that. ROB: Right. There's a big piece of the story there that I would like to come back to, because I think you look at a lot of the brands you've worked with, and I think a lot of agencies would look at the overall top-level brand and say that that brand is untouchable, that you really have to be a big holding company shop to engage with them. But I'm going to put a pin in that for a moment. I want to get back to the origin story a little bit. Clearly, you two teamed up and you're combining worlds of your own strengths. But how did ClarkMcDowall come to be in the first place? What's the origin story? PAUL: [laughs] This is a story that we actually didn't tell from the get-go because I think it would've scared our clients, but we were literally next-door neighbors, literally over the garden fence. Catherine was running the UK side of a London branding company and I was doing my own thing with somebody else. I was very dissatisfied; I was on the creative side/design side, very limited. Wasn't really allowed to ask a lot of questions. I'd inherit a brief and then respond to that brief. Catherine was on the flipside, doing all this incredible thinking with innovation thinking, strategic thinking, and then it would be mistranslated or turned into – just lost, just melt into the ether and never see what happened to it. We had a conversation one day – I think our spouse and partners were like, “The person next door, you should talk! They do what you do!”, whatever. And eventually we did. I remember Catherine sharing her insights. Catherine is extremely eloquent, as you can tell already. Very intelligent, bang-on. I just exploded and was like, “This is incredible.” It opened my mind to things. Likewise, Catherine, different side, “Here's a creative that thinks differently about the industry and is dissatisfied and doesn't just want to be a designer,” all those sorts of things. It was literally a meeting of the minds. It was happenstance. It was one of those magic moments in your life that is transformational. And I mean that in the biggest sense of the word “transformational.” Then we built the business from there and basically shared thoughts and insights. We started in the East Village because that's where we lived. As your audience will know, running an agency is a 24/7/365 job. We had babies at the time, or babies to come, so we wanted to stay close to our families. The human side, as Catherine touched upon, is super important to us, and recognizing that and trying to make it work for people. By the way, Catherine, jump in at any time. You've heard this story a thousand times. You don't need to hear me warbling on. CATHERINE: But you tell it so romantically. It's amazing. [laughter] I think what Paul's saying is incredible because we ended up having two girls, two boys, they were the same ages, they all went to school together. It became kind of like a family thing. The company never felt like a family business, but there was definitely a sense of community. We were very proud to have an office open on E 11th Street between A and 1st back in 1999. It was a complete scary neighborhood, and we were like, “This is where we live. We love it. We're doing it.” Our clients were a little freaked out at first, and then as soon as they got into our office, or past the front door, they were like, “This is awesome. I feel energized. I feel like I'm part of something.” I think we really stuck to who we were, and that's carried us all the way through. Then we ended up in various spaces on the same block. We couldn't really expand the space. At one point we had an apartment, we had a storefront, we had a studio, all literally on the same block. We called it our little village. That's how we grew. We started with some big clients that I'd inherited from my previous employer, Unilever – that then turned into Mars that then turned into other companies – just literally following people around. So we started really having what I would call big clients right from the get-go, and then over time actually had to work to try to get smaller clients – which is the opposite of maybe the journey a lot of other agencies take. They start with the smallest startups and then make their way up. We started literally with the big corporations and had to make an effort to go and acquire startups or mid-size companies that are actually really important to work with also, because they keep you nimble, they keep you fresh, they keep you entrepreneurial, and you have a higher chance of getting stuff out the door and published and all of those things. But it's been definitely a very organic journey for us. PAUL: Yeah. And it's not being afraid to evolve, I think. It's interesting because even after 21 years, we'll stop and do a brand refresh or want to choose our narrative or whatever it is, and we go back to those original core tenets, those values. Maybe the language around them changes, but the essence of those things, what we believe in, is still really true to who we are – this idea of being original, this idea of evolving and problem-solving and going with the times, this idea of having an optimistic outlook, because you have to in order to keep in business and keep going. The idea of community, the idea of taking care of people, nurturing people. Those things were baked in from the start. They weren't things that we made up. They're just true to who we are as people. I think that's something, if any of your audience are new business owners as well, really doubling down on what you believe in and your values and being brave and sticking to them. When you start off, you're a bit insecure. You think you need to be something else than you actually are. We had that, right, Catherine? We said, “Oh, we need to be like this agency,” and in the end it took a couple of years to be like, “No, people are buying ClarkMcDowall. They're not buying the other agency.” Then it was like, “Oh, we are who we are.” You embrace it more and you really go with it. That quirky little storefront we used to have or whatever it might be, it becomes part of you, and then that's what you build upon. ROB: It's really a key point. Maybe since you've made it through 21 years and probably continue to actually refine your authenticity – sometimes you think about building up layers; it seems like it's almost the opposite sometimes. It's peeling away the layers of what people made you think you were supposed to be and finding who you can authentically be. How have you figured some of those moments out? Because it's really, really hard when you think about the expectations that people have upon you when you say, “This is us, this is what we do. We're in the market.” CATHERINE: There's something about knowing your values. I think it was helpful that Paul and I met as people and shared values, so it's easy for us to return to, if you like, as opposed to maybe people meeting through a business lens. We just genuinely wanted to do work together and respected each other's ways of thinking. So there's a human side. I will say the tension comes when you want to change. For example, when 2020 hit, we were really quick to say – I think it was like April or something, a month or two after lockdown – “You know what? Just go hybrid and start building it. Whatever that means, we'll define as we go, but let's commit to that.” So we've changed in the last year and a half probably more ways of working than we've ever changed. Basically moving everything to Google, using different systems, different ways of working, having maybe 25% of the company remote. But somehow, I feel like we're even truer to ourselves in our values. We've really doubled down on the way that we treat people, the way that we integrate into our community, some of the pro bono stuff that we're doing. So there's this weird thing that the more you innovate, in a way, the easier it is to be true to yourself. You have to change a lot in order to really notice that anchor that you have. ROB: Have you hired in a particular secondary location, or has it really been anywhere, everywhere, or maybe just North American time zones? What's the range? CATHERINE: We're in North American time zones. We have had some team members go abroad for a month or so, and that's fine, as long as it doesn't exceed let's say the 5- or 6-hour time range. But in general, it's across the U.S. We have some people on the West Coast, which is great because we have some business over there as well. But there are some other people in places where we don't have clients. What we're noticing, though, is there's a fair amount of movement. Everybody's like, “Do I want to move?”, or they move and then they miss New York and they come back. I think what's been nice for people is that they've felt that they had the freedom to go and explore and not feel like, “I have to not move because we're going to have to go in the office next month” or something. We've allowed people to also discover what works best for them, and I think it's going to take a while to settle, because we're still in this very unexpected, volatile time. The more we allow people to try to find their own rhythm and their own environment, the more we're able to retain them and get the best out of them. That's our attitude. ROB: It's been an exciting opportunity. To your overall point, I think it can almost help when you're not trying to choose “Who's the best person we can find that wants to commute into the East Village?”, and instead you say, “Who's the best person that aligns to our values and needs who wants to work remotely?” It's a different question, and I think the numbers are bigger. The candidate pool is bigger. In our experience, at least, you can hire faster in a lot of cases. CATHERINE: Absolutely. We've also experimented with different hiring models, getting people on short-term contracts so that they're more willing to say, “I'm usually freelance, but I'm going to try to have this full-time experience for a period of time, but I'm not fully committed,” or people working part-time. I don't know that we've cracked the code yet, but we're very much in an open mindset around different ways to engage people, and that's been super successful for us. We've been able to attract people and retain people that maybe in the past it would've been like, they're not local, they don't want to work on these hours, and we might've passed them by. And actually, they've contributed tremendously to the business. PAUL: It's like constantly learning. Same with the space as well, like Catherine said. We gave up our lease. The timing worked out. We've got other pals who are big agencies who are locked into leases and they're like, “Gosh, what do I do with this now?” I guess we were in a fortunate position of being able to give that up, which means that we can experiment and we can learn and beta test. We keep saying we could never imagine – if you were to create an office from the get-go, there's no way you would put people in desks side by side, 9:00 to 6:00. You just wouldn't build it that way. So we're thinking about if and when we have the space – don't even want to call it an office, but what would that space be? What's its role, what's its function? How do we design around people? How do we design around the team? How do we design around people's lives? Because it's not just about work. It's not a transaction. I think work can often become, or has been in the past, a transactional relationship. We want to make it much more integrated and thoughtful in that sense. So that's the sort of experimentation. Do we have the answers? No, not at all. The same way Catherine said we don't have the answers on the hiring. But we're super open. We're not afraid of testing things, and we're not trying to be rigid because “That's the way it was.” It's, “What could it be?” And then we'll try to figure that out. ROB: It's fascinating that you were able after 20 years to hold the office lease even somewhat loosely. But I'm sure maybe because you've moved around so much, it's been possible to recognize that there will always be someone who will let you sign a lease when you show up with a signature in hand. But this moment is unique in what you can learn from it. We talked a little bit about some other lessons along the way around peeling those layers back, but Catherine and Paul, what are some other key lessons you'd say you've learned along the way that if you were rewinding 21 years, you'd tell yourself to consider doing differently on this journey? CATHERINE: Maybe I won't answer fully the doing things differently, but one thing that has been a big thing is how much brands have changed and how much our clients' needs have changed. For a long time – I would say for at least 10-15 years – I remember we used to do some work for a client, a big corporation, and you'd be educating them on this innovation process. They'd never done it before. Then six months later, you work with somebody else in the same company and they also don't know anything. The years would go by. I'm like, when are they going to figure out that they keep learning the same stuff? And suddenly, all of a sudden, I would say maybe five to six years ago, we started to see a shift where a lot of our clients became very sophisticated. They in-housed a lot more things, and all this stuff that we tended to have to educate them on, they know. What it means is you really have to make sure that you're adding value on top of what is basic 101 for everybody now. So the level of sophistication has really increased in the industry – which is great, actually. Different agencies are going to bring different things. For us, it's really about joining the dots. I think having a company that's owned both by somebody that comes from a creative background as well as someone who's coming from a business and strategy background has meant that we've created this culture where one doesn't trump the other. We don't have a design-led culture where strategists are post-rationalizing, or the opposite. That confluence of thinking, of different minds, is really, really rich. We find that harder to replicate in-house for clients just because they're not built that way. They're coming from a business perspective. So we're able to maybe crack things, join dots between things in ways that really add value, and we understand that process really well. But every agency is going to need to be finding how they add value over and above clients being much more educated. So if you ask me what we would do differently, I don't know if I have an answer to that other than just keep staying ahead and making sure that we're always attuned to what our clients really need and where the gaps are for them. PAUL: Yeah. I think about doing differently, maybe things to avoid is avoid limitations. Don't feel as though one has to behave and operate within a box. You can define that box yourself. I think there's more – well, not just you're able to do it; there's more need to do it, to really redefine what those parameters are. I think that is super important, whether you want to call it evolution or whatever it might be. And not just talking about services. That's a part of it, but how you do business is really important as well. And then going back to the transactional nature of business – and we see it with other agencies. I know great agencies. I'm not going to name anybody. They do fantastic work. But what we hear is they're still in a transaction with those folks. They have slots, they have people, they do the job, they go, they quit, they stay, whatever it is. They do great work. We believe that's really shifting and it's really putting the human being first. You need to craft a different kind of relationship with the folks that work for you and work with you, and putting those at the center, and then how do we build around those needs and how do we support those needs? Because if they're doing well and they're feeling fulfilled and they're feeling really good and energized, then your work product, what you do, your clients and your experience, is better as well. I think that's how we think about our business tool. ROB: It's healthy. Definitely, as you get the team in there and aligned, it really lightens the load as well as they become more capable. You don't have to always fill every hat that you've been wearing since the year 2000 or 1999. CATHERINE: Yes, that's definitely – and that's probably been our biggest challenge, getting to a team that is really empowered and that works well together. I look back over the years; we've had incredible talent, but it takes a lot of time and effort to get to a place where you can look at your leadership team and the rest of your talent pool and go, “Whoa, what an amazing bunch of people, and they work really well together.” Actually, we have an all-female leadership team at the moment, which is amazing, and they're really empowered. We have a Head of Client Services, a Head of Creative, a Head of Strategy, a Head of Operations, and a Head of Growth, and they have incredible relationships with each other. A number of those people have been with us a long time and some of them are newer. I think what's been really amazing is exactly what you just said, finding ourselves not having to wear absolutely every hat every day. I think when you do that for too long, it's hard to have big ideas when you're running around basically taking care of millions of different things. As an agency owner, allowing a team to grow under you that can really take some of the responsibility and ownership is huge. I think Paul and I spent a good 10 years running around like headless chickens. [laughter] Suddenly we hit a wall and it's like, “We have to have a reorg,” all these kinds of things that we had to do 10 years ago. But we've really managed to build this incredible team under us, which enables us to do things like this and reflect and think about where we want to take the business. PAUL: It's an old adage, but hiring people that are really good at what they do and in certain things are better at you. There are certain disciplines where I'm happy to hand that over because you're really good at that thing, and you're going to make us better and up our game. Advice to anyone starting a new business is don't be afraid of that. As business owners, your ego – you say, “Oh my God, I've got to be the best at absolutely every single little thing.” You can't. Nobody's that good. Nobody can do that. A lot of it is just trust and support and letting those people do what they do, and letting them shine as best they can. Like Catherine said, we have an awesome leadership team as well, a bunch of very intelligent, motivated, lovely human beings that I think have really helped us think about our business and move our business forward about the way we do things. Right, Catherine? And brought ideas to the table that we said, “Wow, we never thought of that” or “That really helps,” or building on ideas that we have and going with it. We call it “yes, and-ing.” That really energizes you, and it pushes us all forward. It's exciting when that happens. You get off one of those calls, those sessions, like “We just did something really good. I feel as though we've made steps forward here. I feel really good about this.” Those are great moments. ROB: Gosh, all sorts of lessons in there. I'm grateful to have you both on the podcast here. Paul, Catherine, when folks want to get in touch with you and when they want to connect with the firm, ClarkMcDowall, where should they go to find you? PAUL: If you go to our website, clarkmcdowall.com – that's “McDowall” with an “A,” not an “E” – you'll have contact details there if you want to get in touch, for talent. And then there's also LinkedIn as well. We're happy to connect with people. ROB: That's excellent. Paul McDowall, Catherine Clark, congratulations on what you've accomplished together, at the meeting of the minds known as ClarkMcDowall. Thank you for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best moving forward with this new hybrid adventure as well. CATHERINE: Thank you for having us. It was a great conversation. We also appreciate the forum that you have for other agency owners and talents to hear about agencies and get a little bit of an insight into the underbelly of these different companies. Really appreciate that focus on the industry. PAUL: Totally agree. Thank you so much. ROB: That's wonderful. We all need each other. Thank you, and be well. CATHERINE: Take care. PAUL: Awesome. Thank you so much. Take care. Bye. CATHERINE: Bye. ROB: Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Ecommerce has come a long way from its early days as a separate part of the company that you set up and just hope to see returns on. Now, ecommerce is pivotal for just about every organization — but there is one faction of businesses that still lags behind. There are $17 trillion dollars worth of B2B payments made every year. Yes, trillion with a T. And half of those payments are still being made manually. Clearly, there is a massive shift that still needs to happen in the B2B space, and Deloitte Digital is helping make those digital transformations a reality.Paul do Forno is the Managing Director at Deloitte Digital, and on this episode of Up Next in Commerce, he helped us understand the struggles B2B brands are facing and how moving them into the digital space could spell a massive change in the ecommerce industry. Paul also dives into some of the major trends he’s keeping an eye on in the ecommerce world, including how ecommerce continues to scale around the globe, most notably in Latin America. Plus, he shares some tips for businesses who are overwhelmed by the amount of channels and platforms they suddenly have to play in. Spoiler: he says do less. Tune in to hear more!Main Takeaways:Massive Call And Response: Bigger brands are struggling to stay connected to their consumers in a way that scales. Today, customers are looking to have a more authentic relationship and connection with the brands they engage with and support. For enterprises, connecting one-to-one is nearly impossible, so they are investing in tools like A.I. and conversational platforms to keep up with this newer generation of customers who crave connection.Dinosaurs Still Exist: So much B2B activity is still done manually, which means that there are trillions of dollars of transactions that could be moving online if/when B2B companies finally shift their activities to the digital space. The problem is that many B2B companies are miles behind their B2C peers in terms of optimizing the digital space for their many personas. It will take a lot of tools and transformation to bring those traditional B2B companies into 2021, but it will be necessary because the next generation is not interested in manually doing business and would much rather work with companies that have effective digital tools.Do Less: Brands can get caught up in the hype and the attempts to keep up with the Joneses. Instead, they should focus on being great at one platform or marketing activity. Plus, it’s critical to never forget the basics — like making sure your email list is generating the leads and engagement it should be to power your business.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. I'm your host, Stephanie Postles, CEO at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Paul de Forno, the managing direction at Deloitte Digital. Paul, welcome.Paul:Thanks. Excited to be here.Stephanie:I'm excited to have you. I was looking through your background and I saw you were on a list of the hundred most influential people in ecommerce and I was like, we need him. We need Paul. Why do you think you got on that list?Paul:I think first of all, in some ways I'm the old guy who's been around carrying the ecommerce flag for a long time, so I've been doing ecommerce for 20 years. When you've been around that long, 20 years ago it was, trust me, ecommerce is going to be big, honest. Most of the big companies just looked at me and said, "Yeah, it's just a tiny percentage. We don't have the time to focus on it." I've gone through the whole lifecycle from, "Yeah, I don't think ecommerce is going to be big," to, "Oh my god. What are we going to do? Everything is ecommerce."Stephanie:Yep, what did your journey look like? What have you worked on over the years, and then what does your role at Deloitte Digital look like now?Paul:Yeah, I've had some pretty interesting projects all along. We help customers at Deloitte, we're one of the largest implementers and SIs all the way from strategy, studio design, implementation, and run ecommerce and digital platforms. Kind of soup to nuts, end to end for some of the largest Internet retailers both B2C and B2B. My background, I've worked with some of the largest retailers and brands in the world, getting them online, selling, and also supply chain and connecting up all of those things.Paul:I've had the great experience of 20 years ago working with some of the earliest big retail brands of them ... It's kind of funny, when they first started, they treated ecommerce like a store because at the size that they were, on some of them, they were like ... And literally, they would call it store number 1099 and that's the way they treated it almost like a completely separate channel over the to the side. Yeah, let's put some money over there and grow and then see what happens. That from over time, then it became more of a challenge of omnichannel.Paul:How do we make sure that the channels aren't fighting against each other because we dealt with some retailers that literally would ... They wouldn't want returns to come in to the store because those sales and we're not getting them credit, right? That came back and if they exchanged for something else, and so they would be internal fighting because the bonuses of the executives weren't aligned. We've gone kind of like it's off to the side, it's big enough to challenge, to now it's almost the reverse. Retail wants to get more love from the ecommerce side.Stephanie:Yeah, it's a funny and an interesting flip that we see. We've had some guests on the show who said the same thing, like when I started out in ecommerce, they had us in a different building, like on the campus that they were at, they're like, that's the ecommerce team, they're doing their own thing. We've had a couple people say how siloed they were and now, like you said, interesting how retail is like, come on, come give us a little love now.Paul:Yeah, exactly.Stephanie:When you're looking through all these trends that are happening right now, I know that back in the day you were going to a lot of conferences, you were flying all over the world probably, and now I see and follow you on Clubhouse. Tell me a bit about how you're staying on top of the trends and what kind of things are you discussing now on Clubhouse or wherever else you're doing these virtual events?Paul:Yeah, I'll maybe separate ... Definitely right now as we're speaking it's almost a year to the day that I haven't been on a plane. In the last 20 years, over a 100,000 to 150,000 miles a year that I've been flying around.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Paul:One, my wife has gotten to know me.Stephanie:Hi, Paul, nice to meet you.Paul:But, it's given me a lot of opportunity to connect digitally and do more research and some of the new tools, like you talked about, Clubhouse, and I'll come back to that. I think what this has just done is accelerated ecommerce and how important that is and commerce everywhere and brought it forward, and there's a lot of interesting trends that have popped out. Some of the things that may not be as evident, so in the past year, one of the biggest growth areas just for convenience has been around the growth of commerce around groceries, because we had to, right? You got a lot of the biggest stores growing and anywhere from 70% to over a 100%, and so a lot of the innovation has happened in groceries because it needed to, right? The companies that invested more have done well.Paul:For example, if you look at how Target has done, right? They were able to stay open because they had groceries and so they actually grew and were more profitable and a lot of that why they grew was their investments in shipped, a number of different way they pick from their stores, and so it's amazing that not only did they grow that much but their profitability on the ecommerce channel went up which is almost unheard of in a time like this. They executed unbelievably well.Paul:Then on the other side, another interesting related to the grocery which kind of because it forced people to try something new, the largest growing segment on online grocery was actually baby boomers, and it's because they never were forced to do it. They were always used to going to the store, and so we really see that as a watershed moment of hey, to get over the hump, hey, this isn't as bad. Then as soon as you try something and you do it a couple times, it's going to change how people behave.Paul:we expect the adoption rate going forward for boomers, for example, and older will continue. It won't necessarily be at the same rate, but is an important threshold that they'll continue to embrace it.Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. All right, so when thinking about these new consumers who are online who weren't thinking this way before, how are you advising brands to communicate and talk and do things differently? Because it is such a different generation coming online. We've had quite a few people mention you have to think very differently when it comes to customer service or even the whole unboxing experience. People want different things. What are you seeing among your biggest brands right now around what's working to connect with this brand new group of users who are not online before?Paul:Yeah, there's a whole bunch of battling trends that are in here. In fact, on Clubhouse we had a discussion around the eco considerations of delivery, and that got into we brought in a packaging expert and one of the interesting thing that we talked about is that, hey, everybody has all these cardboard boxes, right? People would love to find out opportunities to minimize what kind of packaging and we all probably had the experience of getting a huge package and having one little item in it. I think the whole consideration around eco and environmental is something that I just saw some research, that's at the top of the list of considerations.Paul:Things such as that and packaging and reducing it is a factor of when you're designing for stuff. Looking for opportunities that you can batch up or minimizing the packaging or making it recyclable and also balancing having a great opening unboxing experience, and so you have to balance those things, right? The environmental side and also the brand side, which is hey, the expectations of brands such as Apple put on, on this hey, you want this great experience in opening. There's a lot of non ... Things that you didn't have to worry about even 10 years ago because if you look at some of the studies of what gen Z and beyond are looking for, those considerations are much higher up than they were for other generations.Stephanie:It definitely seems like it can set up some of the newer based for failure though because it seems like you always have to stay ahead and be trying something new where it could kind of take you off your path of building a great product and a great company when you get too focused on some of that stuff. How do you think about the trade-off to stay focused but then also stay on top of consumer expectations that seem to have very rapidly changed in the last year where I wasn't really hearing a lot of consumers talking about eco-friendly packaging and really caring about that, and now it seems like that's a huge thing that we're hearing time and time again about this is a new expectation that you have to keep up with now.Paul:I think a little bit about it is around just the how do you be authentic brand? In many ways, some of the trends that we've been seeing is around less production, right? Some of the advertisement or even things that are helping to actually convert much higher are actually user-generated content that people in authentic ... You want to see how real people act, real people and real products, as opposed to a runway model or a runway person showing off this great ... Because of that, first thing we would say is try and be authentic to your brand and especially right now the over-production is actually a hindrance on many brands.Stephanie:For some of the larger brands you work with, I mean, I could see that being hard for them to want to keep up with the times but then also staying authentic to your brand. Like you said, I know it has gotten some companies in trouble for trying to do the cool thing, keep up with whatever that trend is, try and jump on something. When these big brands are coming to you, what are they struggling with right now and how are you working with them around this new UGC kind of content that a lot of these smaller D2C companies are like, yeah, of course, that's what we're going to do, but when it's a large company, they're like, I don't even know how to do that and how do you flag it and how do you think about the content coming in. Can I even trust it? How are you guys guiding them down that path?Paul:I think that for many larger companies in many ways it's kind of a how do you manage dealing with this on scale? Because in some of the smaller brands, dealing with a few interactions, it's somewhat easier, but when you have thousands and thousands of followers, how do you manage that on scale? What they mostly get concerned of, they want to be closer to the consumer and listen to them and interact, but being able to scale that in both a combination of AI related tools and responses, but also people responses that can do it in scale that are tailored to the brand voice, that's the challenge. We kind of work through different strategies to help them get through that.Stephanie:What are some other things that these brands are struggling with? What are you hearing right now that they're trying to work with you on?Paul:Yeah, and we work with brands both from B2C to B2B, and so I'll actually give two examples just to get a broad spectrum. On the B2C side, I think the ... And depending on the different segment. The B2C side on CPG we're seeing massive spikes because of all the purchases that we've seen especially going through stores, and that's a lot of the food, CPGs are just spiking. They're trying to figure out, okay, great. This is a great opportunity to scale. How do we now embrace and engage and maybe put out some direct to consumer feelers to learn?Paul:In many ways, a lot of the CPGs are going way more direct. Some of the largest scale CPG companies are doing record numbers of doing ecommerce, but they also partner with massive retail chains. They're trying to balance of not stepping on their channel conflicts, and so many are using ecommerce as a mechanism to explore, do special arrangements, special formulations, and learn and get data. As we see, for example, in that area is just there's been so much innovation going on, they're trying to keep up to the pace. They struggle with, well, what do I do first? How do I prioritize on some of these? Most of it is around helping to prioritize and segment some of the ideas to get them into marketplace faster.Stephanie:Trying to keep up with what's happening really quickly, I've seen a lot of them acquiring these smaller D2C companies and kind of putting them in a mini innovation hub where it's like we don't want to disrupt your process but we want to learn from you. Do you see that as a successful strategy for some of these more legacy brands to be able to learn while also keeping their brand identity or is that not really working?Paul:Yeah, I've seen some awesome acquisitions and unbelievable great talent that some of the large ... Just to stick to the CPG space, that's been probably the most aggressive of picking up new brands and learning, right? I think it's actually a brilliant ... That's why some of the premiums are getting paid. It's not just necessarily for the product and what margins, it's also from the know-how, because what ends up happening if you look, and this is something that that's probably the area that Club CPG on Clubhouse is probably one of the largest clubs and they have an amazing talent there, and there's been a number of acquisitions and they're on there talking about their story.Paul:What's really good about doing some of those acquisitions is these people have been very close to the customer, right? They've really interacted, as opposed to you're getting perhaps a new executive who's rotated around, right? These people understand the customer and had that relationship, had to build up the D2C. They really know all the different channels. They're able to provide that voice to the customer and how to go direct so much more. I've seen it be really successful and understand especially some of the early purchases that they've made. It's actually worked out really well, more from the people experience than even the product.Stephanie:It does seem like you can lose sight of that the larger you get, especially the more data you're getting. It's hard to get as informed and be able to actually find trends or themes. When you're working with a lot of these companies, what is your measurement of success when you're like, okay, we are going to transform this company. We're going to bring you guys to 2021 and what's relevant now. How do you look back and see if a digital transformation was successful?Paul:First of all, it's important that we judge success by the way companies measure their success. When we work with different companies, we try and understand what are their outcomes of success and their success can be ... The first thing you think, how much revenue did you grow? But some might not be. If it's a new brand and they want to get out there and they're trying to change their positioning, their goal might be a number of stories that got out, building brand awareness, changing the perspective, and so we always start with making sure that we understand what are their key outcomes and then provide some guidance on how do you get to those key goals.Paul:Looking at from a digital perspective, kind of like as I was saying before, it's also important to have an understanding of the voice of the customer and the sentiment. It's one thing to say what people might ... When you interview them. It's almost more important to see what they actually do, right? And using different tracking NPS scores, using different ... Looking at the data of actual purchase stories and mapping it onto example profiles. That then provides much more of a richer ... Even from compared to people say what they do is different than what they actually do and looking for actual intent in what they've done, and so making sure we're getting the right data is really important as well.Stephanie:Even if they have a lot of different outcomes, it seems like the solutions that you could bring to them could be kind of similar though. From what I've heard, there's a lot of decentralized processes going on, so you need to figure out a way to pull them all in and reduce your crazy marketing tech stack. Have you seen that on your side too that people might have very different outcomes but right now a lot of people have similar solutions or the solutions that you're presenting to them are kind of the same things?Paul:Yeah, in many ways some of our ... What we do to help customers in some ways is to help ... There's probably so many voices in the room and so many stakeholders is how do we help them bring them together and help to prioritize and to facilitate that conversation? Because that's the real hard part when you're dealing ... If you just have your own one product and your own single [sheet] you can make a decision and go.Paul:When you have hundreds of product lines and executives around the world and how do you facilitate the discussion, that's really what we help to do. Be it similar strategy to other companies or not, you need to help bring the internal alignment, and that's sometimes the hardest part because once you get to execute, many companies can do that. The harder part is how do you get agreement and prioritization with the different stakeholders.Stephanie:What kind of advice do you give for anyone who's struggling with that right now? What do you guys do to gain that alignment and have a go forward plan?Paul:Number one thing is start small and try something. You could spend forever talking about it and don't be afraid to fail. Get something in the market. We try and do agile sprints, and so from a development perspective we've been doing agile for a long time but we're also pushing into doing agile marketing so that we get into the same kind of feeding into that, so that okay, let's get something out there, let's try it, learn, and then from there go through the experiment, prove it, or make the changes and then scale, and keep that on an ongoing basis and trying to institutionalize that that it's an ongoing, you need to keep ...Paul:That's the business and how do you keep rolling that, because before when ecommerce was quote unquote more of a side business, it was more of a set it and forget it. Well, let's set it up. We'll set up the implementation, then we'll look at it, we'll make some changes every once in a while where now your core commerce business is your lifeline and some businesses it's over getting to 50, 60% of your overall business. You need to continue to change the priorities and especially as all of the changes that have come down the line from Facebook, from Google, is changing your whole marketing strategies.Stephanie:What about from a B2B perspective? I know earlier you said, okay, we got these two different viewpoints. What do you see in the B2B world? Which sometimes gets forgotten. We don't have many B2B people on the podcast very often and it'd be interesting to hear what does that side of the world look like.Paul:I've been focused more on that in the last year or two because it's such a big growing area. Just to lay the land, to understand how big B2B is, from a B2B perspective, just in the U.S. there's $17 trillion dollars of B2B payments done.Stephanie:Wow.Paul:That's just in the U.S. Right now-Stephanie:That's massive.Paul:It's completely massive and half of that is done manually. Meaning, if somebody writes a check, they send the check off, it's wired. It's not done digitally, and so when we talk about B2B commerce, again, people right away think B2C, it's just about the order, but actually when we talk about ... Or, the other myth or misconception that frustrates B2B people is, well, if just make it a cooler screen and easier to use on the web, then you'll be better, right? Then those are the myths and putting lipstick on problems.Paul:if you actually look into what the B2B challenges are, number one, many B2B purchases are very complex and there's many personas. It's not like, hey, I like this shirt, got it, they converted well, I've optimized, I buy it. Some of these deals are million dollars, half a million, and you need to go to procurement, you've got the business, you've got the people using it. It has to go through an RFP process, you have to buy versus ... Right? It's so much more complex on the number of personas, that's an important thing. There's no quick, easy, CX solution. Not to say that CX isn't important, but it's not like B2B. The first thing, if you start from that premise, that helps.Paul:Then the bigger pieces is traditionally how B2B sold was handshake over lunch, right? Traditionally, middle age guys shaking hands and "Hey, let's do this deal. There we go," and the last thing I want to do is look at the damn website, right? Well, obviously we know that's all changing and last year was the big thing in the workforce, millennials are now the largest part of the workforce. Guess what? Many of those, it's not all men. They're retiring at a very fast rate. Your expectation of your sales people are hey, where are my digital tools? When you talk about B2B commerce, it's about what are all the digital ways to interact, to be easier to do business with as you sell?Paul:In fact, what ends up happening is the top three things that people like for B2B commerce is order status, product information, and just doing a quick re-order. When you look at that, it's more about, hey, how do I make my life easier interacting with my customers? That's just important to understand the difference between B2C and traditionally on B2B side.Stephanie:What kind of opportunities do you see in the B2B world then? Do you see any new innovations coming about? Obviously having a platform that can meet the needs of the customers and to me it seems like it has to be personalized depending on what the business is and how your customers order, but what do you see right now that could be coming in the next couple years to help B2B?Paul:Well, kind of seeing where B2B is in their lifecycle, and so in many retailers, they're now onto their third iteration of a platform from B2C, and for most B2B, they're on maybe their first or they haven't really, right? Many of the B2B clients we're dealing with, oh, we put something up in 2004 and we've just been living with it and we still have to use IE to access it, and so we're dealing with web 1.0. They can't get it on their phone, and so a lot of it is just we need to make it easier for them and looking for ways to make the sales person's life easier.Paul:In the analogy of how B2C commerce is trying to be omnichannel, on the B2B side, it's helping your sales person and CRM. The lines between CRM and B2B commerce have blended together and it's really a tool to help the next generation business person to, hey, all my follow-ups, my data, you might get leads. Did you know your customers are looking at your products? You'll get that lead information, and so that you can follow-up with them or hey, have you deferred ... How many times has the business guy gotten a call? Hey, where's my order? I haven't got it.Paul:They end up spending half their time, and so the other big learning that we've got because it involves sales people so much is that you have to include them early and often during the process. For example, we had this happen one time. We had a customer come to us and say, "Man, we just spent all this money on this great new ecommerce platform for B2B, and we're just not getting the adoption." A couple lessons learned and they asked us to come in and do an assessment. We went in, we started talking to the customers and the customer said ... We ended up hearing this three different ways.Paul:The customer is like, "Oh, man. I love Joe. He's my best salesman, but he told me that if I put my sale through the B2B commerce, he's not going to get a bonus so I just called him to make sure he got his bonus." It's like, oh my god, of course you need to get the sales persons incentives align such that they don't get penalized for using the website, and that was like, oh yeah, that makes sense.Paul:Also, you want the sales people to be ... You want them to evangelize and get them to embrace leveraging it. That's such a key ... That change management in B2B and getting your sales people involved is super key for success.Stephanie:Yeah, which seems like it's a big training aspect to it too, make sure that they fully understand it to where then they can essentially sell the customers on using it and can act as customer service as well, because I'm sure their customers can be like, "I don't know how to order it on here," and if the sales person is like, "I don't know either," that's a big red flag. Are there any other hiccups like that that you've seen either in B2B or B2C where companies are like, oh, this isn't working. This new platform that we're using isn't working and you're like, well, let's talk a little bit about how you guys even thought about implementing it and you left out a big piece like this. Any other stories around that?Paul:Yeah, and number one it's always about ... It's so important getting the voice of the customer and getting representative people early on to provide input and feedback, because what ends up happening is if you don't listen to ... And we've had examples of rolling out systems trying to solve for what we thought was the problem but it wasn't really the problem. The way you bundled orders or the way products were bundled and you prioritized that and you didn't get the adoption, when actually they're focused on another set of problems or departments. That whole piece about getting user input early and often is so critical. The number one thing as you roll that out, you need the voice of the customer.Stephanie:In times like this that are changing so quickly, how do you think about separating the signal from the noise? I can see just so many companies try to keep up with other smaller brands and there's so many new things to try right now. It seems like it's hard to know what's actually going to be a lasting trend where you actually should put that as part of your processes or your platform. There's just so many tools and plugins and things. How do you all think about separating the two and being like, this one's a longer term trend and this is just something short that we see dying off in a year or two?Paul:Yeah, a couple of things that we do and obviously there's things that you want to lay out and over long-term and shorter term, but number one, look for ways ... First of all, understand what your brand promise is. Depending on your brand promise, you might prioritize things different, right? If you're a luxury item versus if you're an item at the dollar store. You have different brand promises and you want to be consistent to your brand promise, and so that's the first thing.Paul:The second thing as far as in general on commerce is continuously look for friction points. Do your tests with your customers and see what are things that are causing them to stop. As you go through all the different steps of the purchasing journey, if you're seeing friction points, how can you reduce that friction? Meaning, hey, this page seems really slow. I don't know why. Let's reduce that. Hey, this content is not connecting well. How can we use other ... For example, and I mentioned it before, hey, getting authentic content of the real users' pictures. That will help people convert higher.Paul:It's an ongoing iterative, so I think what you have is this ... And you're always plotting this, like how can you reduce friction and bang for the buck in a short-term that you can do versus a longer term investment that might then pay back, because it's easy to be like, okay great, we need a 3D VR AR strategy. We're like, well, how is that going to help your $10 item? Obviously that's an extreme example, but if you have a brand promise and you look for ways to reduce the friction to make your life easier, and similarly on the B2B side, that's why I always stress when I define B2B commerce, I like to say it's not about the purchase. It's about making your business easier to do business with, reduce the friction.Stephanie:I love that. What kind of longer term investments are you seeing being made right now that they might not see a payoff for a couple years? Because I know that Deloitte and I think Salesforce partnered on coming up with scenarios for the next three to five years, and so it'd be interesting to hear what you're seeing being implemented based on maybe the scenarios that these companies so all you get is put out there, which ranged to me from happy to very sad scenarios. I'm like, I guess it just depends how you're feeling that day which one you go with. I went with the happy ones.Paul:Especially for companies such as CPG that aren't used to having direct relationship with their customer, for example, big investments that take a while to really understand is the data, right? Getting real data direct from your customers that you then can build on. Those are things that it's not like, okay, a couple weeks, a couple months and you got it. It's something that over time you build up and you start to learn from, and so that's probably one of the biggest areas of especially getting your first party data, and especially since as you might have heard here recently, Facebook is reducing some of the data that they're sharing and how you're able to market and so is Google. Building up your first party data as a brand or building up your email list is so critical, and the benefits that you'll build definitely increase over time.Stephanie:It seems like it's an easy thing to say, yeah, obviously build up on that one-on-one connection with your customers, build up your email list, but it also seems like it's going to be very competitive because every brand is trying to do that now. It seems like every commerce company is turning to a media company that are all trying to have their blogs and newsletters and be on Tik Tok and Clubhouse and everywhere. How do you think brands can compete and build up content that actually pulls people into their community so they can have access to that first party data?Paul:Yeah, so I think the tactics on some of those platforms on core data and getting some of that primary, that's onto ... I think once you get into content and being outward brand, outward bound, I think the focus is and kind of the things that we've talked to our clients about is try and be good on one platform first. It's easy to be like, oh my god, we're so behind. We got to have a Tik Tok. We got to have Facebook, we have to have all the platforms all at once. We kind of guide them on, okay, start with one that's as close to your authentic brand as you can find, and then try and build it and iterate on it and master one before you really try and go after another because, again, there's limited resources and limited people. Trying to spread across all is a lot worse than trying to be good at least on one.Stephanie:Where do you normally find yourself suggesting brands start out at? It seems like Instagram is always a good bet for any company that has product pictures and things like that, but is that usually where you send them to or is it always very varied?Paul:Yeah, it just depends on where they're at. Some brands have ... Again, some of this stuff isn't cool, but SEO and email marketing have some of the best returns and they're super still unbelievably effective. Focusing on those and making sure those are solid, you get some of the best brand for the buck ... You get your bang for the buck. Sorry. Because it's easy to go the shiny happy route, but the core of understanding kind of the SEO and how it's connecting on all your different content and how you're coming up in search results all across and mobile related, that's still ... And again, email marketing on ecommerce, we did a study here recently and saw that some of the most successful brands are their leads are coming from up to 40 to 50% of their net new sales are coming from email related.Paul:We make sure that you have your core fundamentals ready before ... And you might do this like a portfolio, right? Like hey, maybe you're dipping your toe into ... Get a few Tik Tok videos out there and explore with a couple people, and know that you're not going hard on that but making sure that you get your fundamentals down first.Stephanie:Yeah, that's such a good reminder I think just for business in general but to stay focused and make sure that you're not getting caught up in the craziness and everything new. Make sure you have your email list good and that you actually own that and you're sending out good stuff. I don't know if this question could get you in trouble, but I'm going to ask it anyways. What is something you believe around ecommerce that many don't agree with you on?Paul:Huh. I'll have to think about that one. It's kind of funny in some ways because I've come through the whole ... I'm the old guy in ecommerce, and so I've been the one being like, ecommerce is going to be bigger than it is. I feel like in the last six months that now I'm the hey guys, retail is not going away. Retail has been here for hundreds of thousands of years. It's not going away. There's a lot of proponents out there, I won't name any names, but ecommerce is everything, and I'm the ecommerce guy and I'm like, no it's not. Understand it's too easy to say things are black or white for clicks, as opposed to understanding the nuance.Paul:If you look at in China, they just met a massive milestone. They're now over 50% of retail is via ecommerce. If you look at the states, relatively speaking, depending on which calculation you're looking at is anywhere from 17% or 22%, let's say it's somewhere in between that. Less than half of the penetration in China, and so I don't think over the long-term retail won't be 100% ecommerce, right?Paul:Over time, it might get in the U.S., because of the way we're distributed and the ease of buying at retail, you might get up to 50, 60% in the next 10 years but you're never going to get to a hundred and ecommerce is not everything and more the conversation should be retail has just many forms. I'm now pivoted to make sure that we don't forget the importance of these great real life experiences and then how you can balance and leverage commerce online.Stephanie:That's great that you've had to flip now to defend the other side. I'm assuming you think that retail is going to be changing though in some way or shape or form.Paul:Of course.Stephanie:How do you see that playing out?Paul:I talked about the grocery and that's a great example. They are now changing the way they see their line ... Because one of the biggest growth areas in this past year has been about BOPIS, buy online, pick-up in store. You probably saw, like you might have gone to a store and there's all these pickers. If you go, like half of the people in the store were employees picking for pick-ups. Just recently Walmart announced how they're going to re-jigger and automate so that parts of their stores are add-ons will be automated specifically targeted towards BOPIS.Stephanie:Wow, interesting.Paul:They're looking at maybe rolling that out over the next year or two over 200 stores. It's pretty significant. Then if you look at Kroger, they bought Ocado which is one of the largest robot ... Being able to bring together delivery in stage and they're looking for closer to the store to provide support for BOPIS as well. What you're going to see is this the way real estate is leveraged very differently than the big huge aisles with the big cart. It may be optimized slightly differently.Stephanie:Yeah, that's something I've been thinking about optimizing retail locations, and when I think about having someone go and buy my groceries, all the dry goods just get what I need, but when it comes to my fruits and veggies and things like that, I still think people sometimes they have a certain kind of avocado they want, they have a certain color banana they want. It seems like there's a way to segment the store and the stuff can just be picked out for you because you know what you want, and then there's another part of the store that you can still go in and interact with and grab the things that you want because there's actually preferences around them. I don't know what that looks like but it seems like an interesting thing to think about.Paul:Exactly. It's just going to change.Stephanie:Yep. Just a minute before we hop into the lightening round, I did have a question around Internet or ecommerce penetration. You were mentioning that and it does seem like there's a lot of opportunities all around the globe because certain areas have very lower ecommerce penetration because of a lot of reasons. Are there any regions that you're betting on right now or that Deloitte's looking into of there's some opportunities coming up here once X, Y, and Z is solved?Paul:Yeah, the area that has the biggest potential for growth right now that is behind ... If you look at just relatively speaking, to give everybody a perspective, from an ecommerce adoption, China is number one, Europe and the UK are generally a little bit ahead, and a lot of that has to do with they're smaller and it's easier from some of the delivery. The biggest growth area that we see right now in the next short-term is around Latin America.Stephanie:I was just going to say Latin America. I've heard a lot of VCs that you probably follow mentioned how they're going to be up and coming with them.Paul:Mercado Libre based out of Brazil is one of the fastest growing and there's also another shop app that's just skyrocketed out of Brazil, and so they see Latin America, because again they've been behind on the retail penetration and they've been behind, but this whole COVID just pushed that all along. I think that's the next big massive growth compared to everywhere else.Stephanie:I was just looking at them yesterday so it's funny you mentioned that. All right, well let's move over to the lightening round. The lightening round is brought you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud is our awesome sponsor. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Paul? All right. First one. What one thing will have the biggest impact on ecommerce in the next year?Paul:It might actually be how this shipper container problem right now, all the ports are behind and not clear when some of the massive packaging and shipping issues around the world get sorted out. That might be the determinant, because if you can't get the products around the world, you might not be able to deliver what you want.Stephanie:That's a good one. Do you see any resolution with that? I don't understand what the problems are there. I've not looked into the shipping container world, so what's happening there and what could solve that?Paul:It's kind of a combo of stuff, and this has happened in a number of industries. It's kind of fascinating because it also kind of effected the way we planned. When you went back to a year ago into the spring and when you went back to all the historical of what happened when you had a large change and potential recession and what the impact was, you went back to, well, the shipping container industry went back and said, well, all our historical ... We got to pull back. They pulled back. What ends up happening, because of the ecommerce shift and spike, their demand very quickly ... They pulled back and it's hard to then build it back up when you're dealing with massive ships and containers around the world.Paul:By late summer, they realized oh crap, we're way behind and we need to catch up. That was part of it. Then you have a bunch of issues of hey, people on the essential front lines are just getting COVID and they can't deliver it, right? You have a combination of conservative planning, COVID actually effecting people, to geopolitical problems of hey, we don't want to receive packages and you're looking at different areas in the world that actually impact that. That's just another part of it that contributed to it. There was an article in Detail just this past weekend in New York Times that went into a little bit more detail.Stephanie:That's an interesting one and that's a lot at play. That'd be a good field or area to watch. Next question. If you had a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Paul:Oh, man. I've actually been kicking around potentially doing ... This might be a little bit of what are the slow ways to be successful at ecommerce, right? Because it's funny because I've been on Clubhouse now for six months and you've got all of these entrepeneurs that hey, make seven figures, eight figures in a month or two, but the thing ... ecommerce seems overly easy to get into, but to scale and be successful is very hard because there's so many factors that play a part of it that you don't have full control of it. If I had a podcast that I would do, I would say the slow way to success to ecommerce.Stephanie:I like that. I've seen a lot of those people on Clubhouse, their bios of I'll scale you to a million. I'm like, nah.Paul:Yeah, right away it's like, next.Stephanie:Yeah, I just don't trust it, not for a second. What's up next on your reading list specifically around ecommerce trends? What are you reading every day to stay on top of the latest?Paul:It's something that I probably spend a couple hours a day reading lots of stuff. I actually use Feedly, I have all these keywords that kind of feed in, and I follow a lot of ... There's a lot of great podcasts out here. Of course, I got to plug my friend, even though he works at a competing company, he used to work for me, Jason Goldberg. The Jason and Scott Show is probably the best ecommerce podcast out there.Stephanie:Yep, I like theirs too.Paul:He's also a personal friend. I've known him for a long time. There's a whole crew of people out there that are passionate about it, and so I'm kind of geeky about it. It's funny, Jason as the retail geek but in some ways I'm more the ecommerce geek.Stephanie:Yep, I like it. That is a good one to stay on top of. I like that. Then the last one, what one thing do you not understand that you wish you did?Paul:Oh, man. I've come more from ... I'm more on the strategy and the technical side and the implementation. While I understand the marketing side okay, I really don't have the in-depth digital marketing side of it and I'd love to be able to spend more time and really focus around that area of how to really effectively connect. That's almost like another side of the brain that I have not spent the time on there.Stephanie:Yep. That's a good one. All right. Well, Paul, thanks so much for coming on the show and giving us a glimpse into what you're working on at Deloitte Digital. Where can people find out more about you or where can they follow you at?Paul:The easiest ... I'm quite active on Twitter, on deFornoP, you can follow me, and I try and share a couple articles a day of ... I curate good stories on both B2C and B2B commerce and people can also reach out to me at Deloittedigital.com or on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much, Paul.Paul:Awesome. Thank you.

We deal with a lot of stress every day. From balancing our responsibilities to merely reading the news, stress is an inevitable part of life. But contrary to popular belief, stress isn’t always the enemy. A healthy amount of stress allows us to grow more resilient to tougher conditions. Too much stress, however, can lead to the downfall of our well-being. Especially during these exceedingly stressful times, we need to manage our stress levels and build resilience.  In this episode, Paul Taylor joins us to share how we can better respond to stress and build resilience. He explains how too much stress can damage the body and the role of genetic predispositions in our health. Paul also gives us tips on training yourself to handle stress better. Finally, we talk about reframing negative self-talk and forming good habits. If you want to learn more about how to build resilience and handle stress better, then tune in to this episode.     Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year’s time or finish at the front of the pack? 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If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa’s Anti-ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor   Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time.   What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today.   Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules   Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility   Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce’ Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Train yourself to build resilience and handle stressful situations better.  Discover ways to deal with negative thoughts. Learn Paul’s tips on creating good habits.   Resources Pushing the Limits Episode 183 - Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranov‪a‬ You can also watch Episode 183 on YouTube Watch my interview with Dr Seranova on The Interplay Between Autophagy and NAD Biology.  Learn more about NMN supplements on NMN Bio.  Stopping Automatic Negative Thoughts   Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl   Connect with Paul: Website | LinkedIn The MindBodyBrain Project with Paul Taylor The Better You Program by Paul Taylor   Episode Highlights [05:13] About Paul’s PhD in Resilience Paul is studying psychophysiological resilience.  Gratitude, empathy and mindfulness are necessary. But they are not sufficient factors in  studying resilience.  Paul is looking at the interaction between resilience, mental well-being and burnout in military guys.  Paul is developing a new measure of resilience. It uses self-reports, cognitive batteries and biological measures. [07:57] What Stress Does to Your Brain Consistent exposure to stress changes the brain, both structurally and functionally.  These changes make people less able to control their emotional responses.  People suffering from anxiety, depression, PTSD or burnout were found to have significant maladaptive changes in their brains. [17:38] Daily Stressors That Damage Us Aside from life traumas, the smaller daily stressors can also be damaging for us.  Paul believes that modern life is characterised by input overload that puts us in a constant state of stress. Our resilience and responsiveness to stress depend on factors such as genetics, social support and nutrition. Listen to the full episode to learn more about how nature and nurture inform how stress is processed in the brain. [22:40] Training Yourself to Build Resilience The Goldilocks Effect proposes that for optimal performance, stress levels must be just right. Specific training and repetition can help people arrive at an automated response regardless of their genetic predispositions. Learning arousal control strategies can make you act effectively under pressure. These strategies are also used routinely in training military, police or firefighters.  Breathing is one easy arousal control strategy. Specifically, techniques like box breathing and resonant frequency breathing help manage stress.  Listen to the full episode to learn more about breathing techniques and the autonomic nervous system. [29:49] Using Attention in Stress Response Our attention tends to be internally focused if we’re anxious, depressed or stressed.  If you’re not in danger or no external threat, shifting your attention outward can help minimise your stress. You can shift your attention to your breathing or the things you can sense. Paul says that we all have an ‘inner gremlin’. It’s a character that is responsible for negative self-talk, anger, anxiety and depression. Instead of listening to it, you can shift your attention to the “inner sage” or the best version of yourself. This process of “self-distancing” has been found to reduce people’s emotional intensity. Listen to the full episode to find out how to create a character based on these figures. [35:58] Discharge, Recharge and Reframe When you’re feeling overwhelmingly anxious, first find a way to discharge your stress hormones.  Paul finds that even 30 seconds of intense activity helps in discharging.  Then you recharge by focusing on your breathing. Lastly, reframe your perception by thinking about what your best character would do. [40:44] Dealing with Automatic Negative Thoughts You are not your negative thoughts. You can choose not to listen to them. In Japanese psychology, our automatic negative thoughts are stories we tell ourselves. What matters is what story we pay attention to.   The concept of Hebbian learning suggests that every time you’re repeating a thought, you’re strengthening it.  Interrupt your maladaptive and unhelpful thought patterns and create new healthier ones.  Watch your thoughts with curiosity and remember that you have a choice over the ones you can focus on. [48:10] The Importance of Getting Outside Your Comfort Zone The small circle-big-circle analogy is used to describe comfort zones. The small circle is your comfort zone and the big circle is where growth and adaptation happens.  Since the Industrial Revolution, humans have stopped adapting to their environment. Paul thinks that learning how to be comfortable with being uncomfortable is key to growing stronger and building resilience.  However, you can’t go outside your comfort zone and push yourself too hard all the time. You also have to allow yourself to recover physically and mentally. [53:05] On Recovery Seeking comfort is done during recovery. Recovery isn’t the same as relaxation.  Recovery is doing stuff that energizes you. If you don’t take the time to recover, you’ll run the risk of burnout. Balancing recovery, proper nutrition, good sleep hygiene and high-intensity training drives stress adaptation. [1:01:52] How to Make Good Habits and Stick to Them As humans, we are more driven by immediate rewards. Temporal discounting is what happens when our brains ignore rewards that are far off in the future.  Temporal discounting gets in the way of making good habits and achieving our goals.  In making good habits, it is important to understand your values and connect your behaviours to those.  Breaking big goals into smaller and more manageable goals makes it easier to follow through them. Engaging in enabling behaviour also helps in priming your brain to make your habits.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘And so this is what happens when people get burnout or anxiety, depression, PTSD, is that there are adaptive changes that turn maladaptive. And it's basically because the brain is being overwhelmed with stress, either way too much stress in the case of trauma, or just complaints, daily bombardment with stress, and not enough recovery’. ‘So that resonant frequency breathing or box breathing can be really really useful and to deal with stuff in and of the moment. Just, it's basically autonomic nervous system control through breathing’. ‘So if we take a step back, people who have anxiety or depression or just have a busy mind, you know, they've got a lot of negative self talk going on, they want to get rid of it, right? But these three approaches, and I say, look, getting rid of it, it's not really the objective. It's really about where you focus your attention’. ‘I like to talk about shifting your attention to the concept of your inner sage, which is what the Stoic philosophers talked about, you know, that's the optimal version of you. And that's either my best self, me at my best or some sort of other character that I'm consulted’. ‘If you're sitting listening to this, think of your biggest achievement in your life, something that you are most proud of. And I guarantee you, for almost every listener, it will involve stress and being out of your comfort zone. But we need to hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen’. ‘You only get bigger, faster, stronger, because you hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen right’? ‘And I find that there are a lot of high achievers who are at risk of burnout because they're just on, on, on. And not enough serotonin focused stuff, just contentment, relaxation, connection with others time in nature, all of that sort of stuff’.   About Paul Paul Taylor is a former British Royal Navy Aircrew Officer. Paul is also a Neuroscientist, Exercise Physiologist and Nutritionist. He is currently completing a PhD in Applied Psychology. He is developing and testing resilience strategies with the Australian Defence Science Technology Group & The University of Tasmania. In 2010 Paul created and co-hosted the Channel ONE HD TV series Body and Brain Overhaul. And in 2010 and 2015, he was voted Australian Fitness Industry presenter of the year. Paul also has an extensive background in health and fitness. Additionally, he has experience in leadership, management and dealing in high-pressure situations. His former roles include Airborne Anti-submarine Warfare Officer and a Helicopter Search-And-Rescue Crew Member with the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm. He has also undergone rigorous Combat Survival and Resistance-to-Interrogation Training. In 2012, he practised what he preaches about resilience training and became a professional boxer. Want to know more about Paul’s work? Visit his website or follow him on Linkedin.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can learn to build resilience. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. I’m your host, Lisa Tamati. Today I have the legend Paul Taylor. Now Paul is a former British Royal Navy air crew officer. He's also a neuroscientist and exercise physiologist and a nutritionist. And he's currently completing a PhD in Applied Psychology, where he's developing and testing resilience strategies with the Australian Defence Science Technology Group and the University of Tasmania. This guy is an overachiever. He's done a whole lot of stuff in his life. In 2010, Paul created and co-hosted the Channel One TV series Body & Brain Overhaul. And in 2015, he was voted Australian Fitness Industry presenter of the year. This guy has been there, done that, and you're going to really enjoy the conversation today—all around resilience. He has so much knowledge, and he is with us all today. So I hope you really enjoy this episode with Paul Taylor.  Now before we head over and talk to Paul, I just want to remind you, if you're wanting to check out our epigenetics, what we do with our gene testing program that we have, where you look at your genes, understand your genes and how to optimise your genes, and how they are being influenced by the environment and how to optimise your environment, then please head over to my website, lisatamati.com. Hit the Work with Us button. Then you'll see peak epigenetics, peak epigenetics and click that button and find out all about it. Every second week, we have a live webinar where we actually take you through what it's all about, what's involved and how it all works. So if you want to find out about that, just reach out to me. You can reach me at any time and the support@lisatamati.com. If you've got questions around in the episodes, if you want to know a little bit more about any other guests, or you want to find out about anything that we do, please reach out to us there.  I also want to let you know about the new anti-ageing and longevity supplement NMN that I'm importing. I had a couple of episodes with Dr. Elena Seranova, who's a molecular biologist who shares all the information about this incredible supplement and how it upregulates the sirtuin genes in the body and helps create more NAD. Lots of big words but very incredible. The information in those episodes is really incredible. And if you want to try out this longevity and anti-ageing supplement, have more energy, it helps with cardiovascular health, there's even some evidence now starting to looking into fertility. It works on a very deep level in the body and helps upregulate the sirtuin genes which are longevity genes, helps with DNA repair mitochondrial biogenesis, lots of really good stuff. You probably didn't catch all those words, but go and listen to those episodes.  The product is called Nicotinamide Mononucleotide. It’s fully natural, there’s no downside to this. Very safe to take and will slow the ageing process. If you want to find out a little bit more head on over to nmnbio.nz, that's nmnbio.nz. Right, enough for today. I'm going to send you right now over to Paul Taylor who's sitting in south of Melbourne. Lisa: Well, hi everybody, Lisa Tamati here at Pushing The Limits. Super excited to have you. I'm just jumping out of my skin for excitement because today I have the legendary, Paul Taylor with me. Paul, how are you doing? Paul Taylor: Hi, I'm bloody awesome. How the devil are you? Lisa: Very excited to meet you. Paul is sitting in south of Melbourne, he tells me, in Wine Country. Is that right? Paul: That's correct. Like any self-respecting Irishman, I moved to where they make the wine. Lisa: An Irishman who lives in Australia, who is ex-British Royal Navy e-crew, neuroscientist, nutritionist, exercise physiologist—a bit of an overachiever, Paul. Crikey, could you do a little bit more, please? You're not doing enough. Paul: Well, I’m currently doing a PhD in Applied Psychology, just to sort of finish it—round it all out. And I need to keep myself out of mischief. Lisa: Crikey. I feel very intimidated right now. But I am very excited to have you on the show. Because I have come across you from our mutual friend Craig Harper, he is awesome. And I've been listening to your lectures and your work and your learnings, and just going, ‘Wow, this guy puts everything into such a lovely way - with stories and good analogies’. And so, I wanted to share you with my world, over here with my audience. So today, I wanted to do a bit of a deep dive. But before we get into it, so you are doing a PhD in resilience. So, can you elaborate a little bit on the PhD you’re doing? Paul: Yeah, so what I'm looking at is psychophysiological resilience, because I'm just bloody sick to the back teeth, hearing that resilience is all about gratitude, empathy, and mindfulness. And that stuff, it's important. But as I say, it's necessary, but it's not sufficient. And there is a large component of resilience that has to be earned. And that's the sort of stuff that I realized from my time in the armed forces.So, the positive side stuck is important. But there is a lot more to it. And I actually wanted to explore it and do the research on it.  And I'm very lucky that one of my supervisors, Eugene, is the principal scientist at Defence Science Technology Group. So, they work a lot with the military. And I'm actually doing—I'm just finishing off my first study with the military. So, it's pretty cool for me, having left the British military 16 years ago. Now, I’m doing resilience interventions with the Australian military. Lisa: Wow, I mean, it just sounds absolutely amazing. What sort of things are you—because I agree, like, the gratitude and all that very, very important—but it is, you can't just decide. Like, positive thinking, ‘I'm going to be positive thinking’. It's like a little bit more complicated than that. We need to look at things at a deeper level. What is it that your PhD is actually researching? So, what is the study that you've just done, for example? Paul: Yeah, so the one that we're doing, we basically—it's a pilot study. So, what we call a proof of concept. So, taking a bunch of military guys, and they've gone through training, so I did a full day's workshop, 34 hours with the guys. And then they went on to my app, to be able to sort of track behaviours and log habits and interact with each other and put the tools to the test. And so they did—they've done a survey on mental well-being, another survey on resilience, and another survey on burnout. So I'm actually looking at the interaction between your resilience levels, your mental well-being and your burnout, or risk of burnout in the workplace.  And what I'm hoping to do in further research is to develop further the model or the measurement criteria of resilience. Because at the minute, in the literature, it's just measured through a questionnaire, and it's pretty poor, really. Lisa: Wow, yeah. Very subjective. Paul: Yes, it just gets very subjective. And it's also influenced by—if you're doing a resilient survey, it's influenced by who is actually going to see that right. So, if you're doing it for your employer, a lot of people will actually think, ‘Oh, I better not answer this in a certain way, because there may be ramifications’. So there are limitations with any self-reported questionnaire.  But more lately, there's been some biological measures of resilience that have come out of University of Newcastle, which I'm actually going to be working with that group. So, they've actually lived in something called an acoustic startle response, which is basically you'd be sitting with your headphones on, doing some sort of task. And every now and then there'd be this light noise going off in your headphones, and you'd be all wired up. And they'd look at your heart rate, your blood pressure, your galvanic skin response. And you see there's a spike from your autonomic nervous system, right?  And what they have actually shown is that people who have higher levels of resilience on these self-reported questionnaires, they actually—they acclimatized or they adapt quite quickly to that noise, whereas those who have got lower resilience or who maybe have PTSD or anxiety or depression, they don't habituate to it. So, they're still getting that response, right. So, and this is about what is actually going on in the brain, and particularly an area called the amygdala, that I'm sure we'll get into.  So, I'm looking at a sit back and develop a triangulated measure of resilience. We're taking that maybe acoustic startle and some of the self-reports stuff, and then performance on a cognitive battery when you're under pressure, right? So, trying to then get a triangulated measure or a new measure of resilience. That’s a very long winded—yeah, so we can measure it a bit more objectively. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, because you're working with, like, in Special Forces, I think, in the military. So these are guys that are under immense pressure situations. And looking at our military and vets and stuff, and a lot of them come back with PTSD, and all sorts of mental health issues. And these guys that are coming into this are tough characters, these are not—and then they're coming out with problems. And even not in military, but just in things like my husband's a firefighter. The stuff that they get to see every day. Like he's a really strong, resilient, resourceful human being, but I'm seeing the load, the PTSD sort of load that's coming up over years and years and years are starting to have some bigger ramifications.  Do you see that people that are like super hardcore tough, amazing, but when they are going into these repeated situations and being because usually like exposure therapy is one of the things we do to lower our stress response. If you don't like spiders, and you have to hold a spider every five minutes, you're going to get used to holding a spider, and it no longer will cause a response. By the same token, are you seeing this going flip the other way? Where you're actually getting worse from exposure? Paul: Yeah, so there's a lot of academic research in this area, looking at not just PTSD, but also burnout. So, for me, there's that, there's a continuum of workplace burnout is linked in a way to post traumatic stress disorder, right? It's just that the exposure isn't as extreme. There's not that trauma, but it's the insidious, consistent exposure to stress that actually changes the brain. It changes the brain both structurally and functionally. So what I mean by that is what we're seeing in both PTSD and anxiety and depression, by the way, and workplace burnout, with the advent of brain scanners, they're able to take a bunch of people and follow them for a long period of time—six months, a year, two years. Ask them about their stress levels, and then look and see, does the brain change over time? And what they're actually seeing in that people who are suffering from burnout or anxiety or depression or PTSD, there are significant, as I said, structural and functional changes in the brain. So what I mean by that from a structural perspective, the amygdala, the part of the brain, one of its job is to sense and respond to stress, and it actually becomes bigger. And so there's  increased cells, increased connections and hypertrophy, it's just like your muscles with hypertrophy. And I'll come back to that in a second why this is, right. But in concert with that, areas of their prefrontal cortex, that rational planning judgment part of the brain, and also, another area called the anterior cingulate cortex—they're actually shrinking. There’s damage to those neurons and there's less activity in those areas. And what this means functionally, is it means it's a less-connected brain. And it means it's a brain that is less able to control emotional responses. So basically, the amygdala is starting to hijack the brain. The neuroscientist, Antonio Damasio, he's the first to show in his lab that with that repeated— if your amygdala becomes sufficiently activated, it can actually secrete chemicals to block your frontal lobes. Basically, it says, ‘Talk to the hand. I’m in control of this brain’. Right now we all know that as losing our shit, right? Things are hijacked. But when this is happening repeatedly, what's happening is that there are neuroplastic changes in the brain. Right? And we know that this even happens in unborn children, in fetuses, that if they're exposed to chronic stress in the third trimester, the amygdala will grow bigger and more sensitive. And if we think about it, it's an amazing adaptive response. Because it's basically, they're getting inputs through the placenta and stress hormones. If we're adults, we're getting input saying, ‘This is a dangerous word’. Right? Lisa: Got to be vigilant. Paul: Yeah, the brain is all about survival first, right? It's all about survival. So, and sometimes that adaptive response is maladaptive. Right? In that there are changes that no longer serve us, right? And so this is what happens with people get burnout, or anxiety, depression, PTSD, is that there are adaptive changes that turn maladaptive. And it's basically because the brain is being overwhelmed with stress, either way too much stress, in the case of trauma, or just bombardment. Daily bombardment with stress, and not enough recovery. And I know as a lead athlete, you know about the balance between stress and recovery and just dealing with what you’ve got. Lisa: Never got it right. Paul: And then you don’t, right? Lisa: Burnout was my best friend. Yeah, there's a huge—because I studied genetics, there’s a huge genetic component to this as well. Paul: There is, yeah. Lisa: When you're looking at how long your adrenal, your stress hormones, for example, stay in the body, your COMT gene, your—the RD2 gene, the RD2B gene. Once they actually get the adrenaline, is it going to stay here in the body very long? Or is it going to be out? And they call it like the warrior gene and the worrier. Paul: Worrier and warrior. When I say it, people go, ‘What’s the difference’? I go... Lisa: Warrior as in a Maori warrior, and the other one as in worrying, worrying yourself to death. And there’s a genetic predisposition. And then you couple that with environmental, being overwhelmed with either an event or a series of events, or like you say, the constant bombardment. Because there's a question in my head, like, you and I, there’s history, we've both been in some pretty freakin’ scary situations in life. And those are certain traumas that you've been through and you've carried. But then there is a daily shit that goes on.  Like something that I'm dealing with currently is like, I don't know, but the level of anxiety sometimes is like as high just because I feel like a computer with a million windows open. And it's got inputs coming up. And there's so many—you're trying not to drop the ball, and you're wearing so many hats on so many levels. So that's a different type of anxiety. And it's—and that one that like the big, major ones that you've been through, they sort of self-explanatory that you've got problems with those. But these little ones can be quite damaging too, daily on the mind. Paul: Absolutely. And I like your analogy about having a million windows open. And that's really modern life, is it's just input overload for a lot of people. And it's, even we know that reading the news a lot, and the negativity particularly around COVID is just bad juju, right? Particularly if you are predisposed, or you have underlying anxiety. Then we've got kids, we got that juggle, we got kids and parents, right? And we got work stresses, we got money worries, we got relationship issues. These are all things that our ancestors didn't really have to deal with. Right?  And our stress response system has evolved over the last 2 million years in our ancestors in response to certain challenges. Right, so three minutes of screaming terror on the African savanna when you're being chased by a lion—that's your fight or flight mechanism. And then longer term or really traumatic stress, but mostly longer term stress, like famine. And that's the HPA axis and cortisol. And as you rightly said, different people are different. There's genetic predispositions to which one is dominant, how quick the clearing is. But there's also that, as you rightly say, and a lot of people don't understand this, is that the interaction between nature and nurture. That just because you have a certain variant of a gene, it predisposes you—it doesn't mean you're going to develop that, there needs to be that event. And then we know that those events, when they happen early in life, tend to have a bigger impact. Right? Lisa: So children exposed to trauma are in much deeper in the shit than others Paul: Can be. Unless they have the presence of a caring, supportive adult, often, they can get through it and end up being more resilient. Or they've got a certain variant of a gene, that when they're exposed to stress as a kid, they end up more resilient as an adult. So, it's a really complicated thing. And the thing that I also talk about a lot of people don't, is it also depends on other environmental factors going on. Like what's your nutrition like? Like, what's your sleep like? What's your exercise like? All of those things are hugely, hugely important. It’s a really complicated story, as to whether someone and develop some psychopathology because of exposure to either trauma, or just that insidious day to day stress—what we call de-stress versus used stress, which I'm sure we'll get into. Lisa: Yeah, now that's absolutely exciting because I mean, I preach a lot about doing the fundamentals right. Getting a sleep—at the basis of everything is good quality sleep. And that's not easy. It's not always an easy simple thing. Paul: But check if you're under stress, right? Lisa: Yeah, yeah, because your brain won't bloody turn off. And studying the gamma and dopamine and adrenaline and norepinephrine and all these chemicals that are running out and they're actually controlling us to a large degree, or at least when we're unaware of their influence on the body. But there are things that we can actually do to actually help regulate our own physiology. So I mean, guys and girls in the armies, in the military, have to do this. Or even like I watch my husband and my brother—they’re firefighters—when they're under an emergency situation, three o'clock in the morning, called to a bloody accident, someone's trapped in a burning car type of situation. Like, my husband's just so cool and calm and collected in that moment, like he's completely present. And in daily life, he's quite a shy, introverted dude, right. But when the shit hits the fan, I've seen his like, he doesn't put on a cabbage head. When I looked at his genetics, he doesn't have that predisposition to having adrenaline much. He doesn't have much of an adrenal response. So he'll come up for a minute, and then he'll be back down very quickly, and he’ll be able to control it. And he also understands, I've taught him more about breathing and all that sort of jazz to help regulate your cortisol and all of that sort of stuff. But it is a predisposition.  My predisposition, I have a hell of a lot of adrenaline, testosterone up the wazoo, dopamine. I tend to start really responding and taking action. But I have to actually turn on the prefrontal cortex. I have to really focus on that and not just fly around like a blue ass fly going just running into the burning building without thinking about what the hell I'm doing. So, two different responses—and both are very good responses in a way, if you can learn to manage them and control them and bring them on at the right time. Paul: Yeah, and look, that's where the training element comes into, right? And so, irrespective of what your underlying genetics are, through military training or police or firefighters, they are trained in these situations routinely. And the brain sort of habituates to it and you learn strategies to be effective under that pressure, what we call arousal control strategies, right. So, whether that is—an arousal control can be both ways can be—for people who are generally low, can be getting them up to the right level of arousal. And for people who are a bit too overactive, bringing their arousal down, so they're in that peak performance zone. Let's say the neuroscientist Amy Ornstein talked about Goldilocks and the Goldilocks effect of stress in the brain. That it can't be too little, because when you're bored or you're under arousal, your performance is just not going to be optimal. But also it can’t be too much. And everybody's got a level of arousal that is too much. Lisa: Wow. That's a cool analogy. I like that, Goldilocks. Paul: It's a wonderful analogy. And she's shown, looks at the neurotransmitters that are involved in that—and particularly looking at dopamine and noradrenaline, or norepinephrine, as some people call it, how they're really important in that regulation. But as I say, training, specific training and repetition, can really help people just to get into an automated response. And no matter what their genetic predisposition. Lisa: So if someone is prone to a lot of anxiety, and maybe depression, what are some of the practical—like, if we start talking a few practical strategies now for people dealing with different issues — and let's start with anxiety and maybe depression—what are some of the things that they can do when their amygdala hijacks you? How do you get a grip on yourself and actually change the physiology? Because you feel some big noise happens, or an earthquake happens, or something and you've got that adrenaline just poured out and you’ve got all this stress cortisol and all that, how do you bring yourself down quickly, get yourself under control? So you don't end up in a panic attack, for example? Paul: Yeah, so there's both short-term strategies and there's long term adaptive strategies, right? So, and I'll go into both of those things. First of all, it's important to understand what's going on, right? So this is about the autonomic nervous system. And there are—some of your listeners will be aware of this, but there's two branches of the autonomic nervous system. There's the sympathetic nervous system, and the parasympathetic. And the sympathetic is probably badly labelled because it's not very sympathetic, right? It's the one that increases stress, right? So, and if we think about the response that's going on—so in the brain, the amygdala senses a threat, it sets off a general alarm. And then, the hypothalamus is involved in this, the sympathetic branches is fired up. And for some people, it fires up more than others. But for everybody, when that's fired up, and the vagus nerve is really quite important in this, that's the nerve that connects the brain to the heart, the lungs and all the visceral organs, right? So and the blood pressure goes up, heart rate goes up in order to pump blood to the muscles to give you the fight and runaway, right. And additionally, breathing gets faster and shallower. And then, we know your digestive system is affected and all the blood that is in your digestive system, digesting your food... Lisa: Your peristalsis. Paul: It’s shunted away. It’s shunted away to the working muscles, right, we know the immune system is temporarily switched off, the reproductive system’s temporarily switched off because there's no point in ovulating or creating sperm when you're being chased by a lion. It’s a waste of energy, right? If we think for a second about the long-term consequences when people are in a chronic state of overarousal, even if that's just low baseline overarousal. So, I have a suppressed reproductive system. This is why people who are chronically stressed, and they become infertile. Right? Boom. And this is why they develop digestive system issues like irritable bowel syndrome and stuff like that, which we know can change your microbiome. And then there's a two-way interaction, which we'll talk about later. And the immune system becomes suppressed. That's why people develop—they get sick, and they take longer to recover, whether it's from a wound, whether it's from training load, or whether it's from any type of illness or injury. And then heart damage can happen, right, and with that chronic stress. So that's over activation of the sympathetic branch, and particularly the vagus nerve, right? What we now know is it's only taken our scientists about 3,000 years to catch up with the knowledge of Yogi's, right? Yeah, exactly. Certain breathing patterns can affect your heart and your brain. And I used to think, all that breathing, I used to think it was fluffy bullshit. Until I get into the science—and Jesus, how wrong was I? Lisa: Me, too. I must admit, and now I'm doing it 100 times a day. Paul: Yeah, exactly. So, techniques like box breathing. I'm sure your listeners have probably heard you talk about it. Lisa: Repeatedly. Paul: Yeah, breathe in like the sides of a box. Breathe in for four or five seconds, hold for four or five, out for four or five, hold for four or five. And you can also do a modified box breathe, which is in for four, hold for four, out for six, hold for two. And I'll talk about that in a second. There's also something called resonant frequency breathing, which is also really, really beneficial and can actually enhance your what's called heart rate variability, which is a kind of a window into overall stress on the body.  So, reso-frequency being—you need some equipment to measure it effectively. But generally, everybody listening is probably between four and a half, five breaths and seven breaths a minute. And it's been shown that if you get within one of that, then you could. So I teach people, just generally six breaths a minute, right? So that's 10-second breath cycle, but breathe in for four and out for six. Because the longer breath out—when you breathe in, you are up regulating your sympathetic nervous branch, right? When you breathe out, you're activating the parasympathetic nervous branch. So, the long breath out is really, really key, which is why I talk about the modified box breathing as well. So that resonant frequency breathing, or box breathing can be really, really useful to deal with stuff in and of the moment. Just—it's basically autonomic nervous system controlled through breathing, that’s it. Lisa: Control your physiology in seconds. Paul: And the other thing that goes in concert with that, and my wife uses a lot of this, she's qualified in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy in Japanese psychology. And we're both fans of stoic philosophy. And it is about attention, and all three of these great agree that attention is key. So if we take a step back, people who have anxiety or depression, or just have a beasty mind, they've got a lot of negative self-talk going on, they want to get rid of it, right? But these three approaches, and as they say, look, getting rid of it, it's not really the objective. It's really about where you focus your attention.  So, if you think of your attention, like a light, and when you're in that stress response, your attention, and it is very internal focused, if you're anxious or depressed, or you're stressed about something that's on that particular thing. But it's an internal experience that you're having. So just shifting your attention outward. If you're not in danger, this is—you just have an anxiety, depression, whatever, just look for the colour blue. That's one thing. Just shine the light of your attention somewhere else. Lisa: Like a naughty kid who’s having a tantrum. Just distract them. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And I call that part of the brain your inner gremlin, that’s responsible for anxiety, depression. And but also just negative self-talk and self-criticism, and anger — all of these things. And the key thing to understand is your gremlin’s like a chameleon, right? It can take many guises. But it's like, if you remember the movie Gremlins, when you feed Mogwai after midnight, it becomes energised and turns into the Gremlin. So, when you shine the light of your attention on the gremlin, it becomes energised. So this is where you just shift your attention either to where's the colour blue or what can I smell? Lisa: Or breathing. Paul: Or we like to—or your breathing—yeah, that's another great combination. And I like to talk about shifting your attention to the concept of your inner siege, which is what the Stoic philosophers talked about. That's the optimal version of you. And that's either my best self, me at my best, or some sort of other character that I'm consulting. Lisa: Ah, yes, I heard you talk about this on Craig’s show. And I was like, that analogy that you use, like there was one with your son, Oscar. And him talk, having Derek, I think it was... Paul: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, Derek. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa: So creating a character around these two polarizing figures. I’m always talking about the lion and the snake in my head. Or Wonder Woman in this chicken shit, who’s me. And we all have this positive, amazing self. And we have the self that's full of self-doubt and imposter syndrome, and I can't do this, and angry, and negative, and cynical. And so it's creating a character. So tell that story a little bit. Paul: Yeah. So the character thing is really, really powerful. And so I get people to—you've got to bring this character to life, right? So there's a little exercise, which I'll share with you. And you can share with your listeners where, so I call them your inner Gremlin and your inner siege, right? Or you can say whatever you want. So, what do they say first thing in the morning, right? You write that down. Generally your inner Gremlin is the one that says, ‘Press snooze’ or ‘Not another bloody day’, right? But then you go, what do they say when they're faced with a challenge? And then you write down their character strengths and particularly, you focus on your inner siege, what are the character strengths that you have when you're at your best? And then I like to do a thing called plus ones. Like what are ones that you'd like to develop or have more of? And you write down. So, if it's calm under pressure or being more empathetic, I'm going to write down that my inner siege is calm under pressure, is more empathetic, right?  And then drawing the characters is a brilliant thing because it brings it to life. And Oscar when he drew the characters, he drew Derek and he drew Flash, who has now actually being replaced with Richie. A little side story. I actually bought a book called The Real McCaw from Richie McCaw because I am a big fan of the All Blacks, and particularly Richie McCaw. And I bought his book, and I was wanting to read it, and it friggin’, it disappeared, and I couldn't find where it was. And one night, I went down to Oscar’s room. He was supposed to be asleep, and he's there reading. And he's reading that book. He'd nicked it from me, and he had a highlighter. He's 10 years old, and he's highlighting stuff what Richie McCaw said, right. So now, his inner siege is called Richie, right? But when he drew these original ones, he actually did a speech bubble for Derek and it said, ‘I will crush the good ones and I will be the king of Oscar’s head’. How cool is that? Lisa: And he’s 5 or something. Paul:  No, he was seven at a time. Lisa: 7. Oh my god. But I mean, the hard cold, maybe 6, actually. But sometimes kids are so insightful. Because that's what happens, right, is that when that negative character takes a hold of the negative self-talk, it does crush the good self-talk, kind of becomes the king of your head. If you choose to let it, right? Paul: So my inner siege is called, Jeff. So when I'm struggling, or I need to get myself up, I just go ‘What would Jeff do right now’? Right? And so this is a process in psychology called self-distancing, where you're taking yourself out of the emotional state, and you consult a character or my best friend or whatever, and it actually shows it reduces the emotional intensity. And research shows that people make better choices. They're more courageous, and they make better choices, right. And so that's one, I think, really useful way to shine the light of your attention. So, the process that I use, depending on who's around, right, if someone's having a bit of an anxiety or just a bit of negative stuff, I like discharge, recharge, reframe. So think about it, it’s stress hormones, right? If somebody’s having an anxiety, get it out. You got to discharge those stress hormones. When you run away... Lisa: Go for a run. Paul: ...you come back to homeostasis, right. And I find, even 30 seconds of intense activity is enough. So, you discharge the stress hormones, then you recharge by your breathing, right. So you're doing that breathing and you're focusing on your breathing. And then, so your amygdala hijack is gone now. Use you're focusing on the breathing, and then you reframe and you go, ‘Okay, what would Jeff do right now’? Or ‘What would my character do right now’? Or, if I've written down all my character strengths, what action do I need to take right now to display those characteristics? Right? So the Japanese psychology, Morita Therapy, there's this beautiful term called, arugamama, right? It is what it is. And then they say, ‘What needs to be done’? And the stoics are very much like that — what do we need to do right now? So it's very action focused. Right? And so that is something that I think works for me well. Lisa: Yeah. Because it sort of removes yourself so that you're looking—it's like looking down on yourself. Because this brain of ours is like a thought factory, it just keeps going and talking and chattering and go, go, go, go. And yeah, emotions take over, amygdala often is in control of our prefrontal cortex. And if we can separate ourselves and sort of hover over ourselves—and I've been looking into stuff like what happens after death because I just recently lost my dad and all those questions. ‘How do I connect to my dad on the other side’? All of that sort of jazz that nobody can bloody answer, really.  Paul: Yeah, if you get the answer, let me know. Lisa: Yeah, I’m working on it. I'm really trying to get it out. But a lot of talking about the connection to the other side and opening up those channels, and to me, it's like, okay. So just from a brain point of view, if I just separate myself out from my brain, like, if you believe that we are a spiritual being and so our brain, our body, we're just walking around in this earthly body, but we have a higher self, if you like. So, it’s this higher self looking at that brain going, ‘Oh she's running that stupid program again that she learned when she was seven. It's no longer relevant here, I need to change the recording, and I need to change up’.  So it's just giving yourself a way of separating yourself from the actual emotions that your body is feeling, your physiology is feeling like now. And for me, a lot of it is, when I get anxious and stuff, I will just go and sprint for 50 metres. Like you say, it doesn't have to be long, it might be 2 minutes. It just comes back, reset myself. Sometimes if it's a really bad situation or whatever, I'll have a little cry that discharges more energy. And then I pick myself up and we'll get on with it, and we'll do a breathing, and we'll get back into gear. And just having those little tools in your toolbox can really help you manage the day-to-day crap that comes at us. And even in the big situations, the really traumatic ones, I've used those situations regularly—just remove myself for a minute from the situation, go and get my shit together. And then come back into the situation. And that can really help if you have the luxury of doing that. So, I think these are really, really important because people often think, well, they look at someone like you and all your achievements and all stuff that you've done—or even in all the races that I've done. ‘No, never. I could never do that’. And that's your automatic negative thoughts coming in, your angst, as Dr. Daniel Amen talks about, they just pop up. And you need to realize that that isn't you, that's just your brain doing its thing. And you can choose not to believe that brain when it tells you you're not good enough, or you're not sexy enough, or you're not pretty enough, you're not strong enough, whatever the case may be. You can go, ‘No, I'm not listening to that’. And I'm diverting, and what you're saying, is divert your attention. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And those answers are automatic negative thoughts. In Morita Therapy, Japanese psychology, it's basically, it’s a story. It's a story that we tell ourselves, and there are a number of different stories. And it depends what story we pay attention to. And because when you pay attention to a particular story, when we think about what's happening in the brain, that self-concept, or that idea that ‘I'm not good enough’, is basically what we call a neural net in the brain, right? It's a bunch of neurons that are firing together for a concept or a thought or a particular line of thinking.  And the Scottish neuroscientist Donald Hebb showed in the 1950s, it's called Hebbian Learning. And it's a well-accepted way of the brain works, nerve cells that fire together, wire together. Right? So every time you're repeating that thought, or paying attention to it, you're strengthening it. And he showed that eventually, after a certain amount of repetitions—and we don't know the magic number—but that circuit becomes what's called long-term potentiation. This means that this circuit is primed for firing. And it means that then even neutral information is more likely to fire off that circuit, right? And every time you're paying attention to it, you're strengthening it.  So, the other approach is to go, ‘Thanks, Gremlin’, or ‘Thanks, brain. Thanks for that story that you're telling me. But it's not helpful right now’. Right. And that's where you focus on another story, or a particular affirmation that people might have. A different story, I've got this, whatever, it's another neural net. And every time you're focusing on it, and paying attention to it, you're strengthening it, right? So it's about interrupting the old and maladaptive, unhelpful thought patterns... Lisa: That we all have. Paul: ...and actually creating new ones. And every time you catch yourself—this is why the first part of all of this is about being the watcher. It's about being the watcher in your own brain. And for lots of people, this is a frigging revelation, that they can actually watch their thoughts, and do it with curiosity. And go, ‘Wow, there's an interesting negative thought. And that's an interesting negative’...  Lisa: Great example! Paul: Yeah. And then be curious and go, ‘Well, what would a more positive thought actually be’? Right? So you can trick yourself into having these positive thoughts and every time you're doing it, you're laying down and strengthening those networks in the brain, right? So like anything, like you didn't become awesome at what you did by doing it once and then boom, that's it. It's about repetition, repetition, repetition. So, really the first step is being the watcher, and then just repeatedly intervening, and going, ‘Actually, I have a choice’, right? And what's called in Acceptance Commitment Therapy, the choice point. And Viktor Frankl talked about it, the Jewish psychiatrist who was imprisoned in Auschwitz. And I read his book as a 17-year-old, had a pretty profound effect on me. He said, in between stimulus and response, is the space where we have the ability to choose. And he talked about the last of human freedoms, is your ability to choose how you react to your circumstances, whether they be external circumstances or circumstances in your head, we all have that ability to choose how we're reacting, right. And choosing what we actually focus on. And it's this light of attention, that I think is really, really powerful. So when we wrap it all up in those characters, and then we're repeatedly doing it, and then people are waking up in the morning, and actually spending a few minutes saying, ‘Okay, who am I going to be today? What version of me is going to interact with the world’? And every time they observe negativity going, ‘Well, I say I've got a choice right now. What would Jeff do right now’? Right? Before they walk into their office, and just before you walk in the door, just think, ‘What do I need to do to express those characteristics of my best self’? And especially when you come home, particularly if you've had a shitty day, you just spend 10 or 15 seconds going, ‘Okay, there's a choice here and what version of me, do my partner, my little kids want to see walk into the room’? Right?  And it's just that little mental rehearsal, as you'll have done hundreds of thousands of times as an athlete and every world class athlete does this mental rehearsal because that shit works. Get your game face on. Lisa: Get your game face. I have this analogy and I've told this story before on the podcast but when I was doing this race in the Himalayas and absolutely terrified, 222 K's of extreme altitude... Paul: Jesus Christ! Lisa: And I’m an asthmatic with a small set of lungs, who did mostly deserts for a particular reason. And I was absolutely packing myself, and I got my crew together like two days before and I said, ‘You have to protect me, my brain. You have to like tell me how amazing I am. Every time a negative thought comes up, I want you to sort of shout it down for me and protect me from everyone else’.  And on the day of the actual event, they did that and they really helped me get my shit under control because I was really losing it. Like I was just terrified I'd had a concussion in the build-up, I'd had to rip some ligaments, so I hadn't had a good build up. And it was the scariest thing I've done at the time. And I've done some other scary crazier shit but that was pretty up there.  And on race day, you wake up and you have that moment for a second where you go, ‘Oh shit. It’s that day’. That day you've been  preparing for, for a year and a half, but it's that day and you've got to get up and face down 222Ks in the mountains in extreme temperature, extreme altitude, and no air and things. And I'm putting on my gear, and then that person changes. When I put on my running gear... Paul: That’s your thing. Right. Lisa: It’s my thing. That's my ritual. Paul: That’s your siege. Lisa: When I put on a number, there's a different person in front of you. And that person is a freaking warrior. Paul: Machine, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, in my head. I’m not, but I am in my head, in that moment, I am Wonder Woman. I'm Gal Gadot. I can do any freaking thing and I’m telling myself the story, I'm telling myself the story in order to create the chemicals in my body that I need just to get to the freaking start line and not run the other way because I'm terrified.  And then, once you start and you're in the battle, you're in the battle. You're in it. There's no way out but through. And then you have to bring in all the guns. Over the period of the next 53 hours, I had to bring out all of the stock, sort of things, to get through every crisis that came. And these voices in your head are pretty freaking loud after 50 something hours out there. Paul: That they bloody well are, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, but when you go—because one of the other analogies that I wanted to bring up that you talked so well about in one of the interviews was the small circle and the big circle. And the small circle is your comfort zone. That's you, that's the life that you're living when you're in your comfy world and you're not pushing outside the zone. And you’re staying safe because you're too frightened to jump out into the big circle is what you can be, and your potential.  But out there, in that big circle, it's freaking scary, it's hard work, it's terrifying, there’s risk of failure, there's all sorts of things. And everybody wants to be that big person that does these, lives this full life, that reaches their—none of us will reach our full potential, but we're reaching a heck of a lot of potential. And not living in the safe, little comfortable, ‘I'm scared’ world. And pushing yourself every single today to do shit that hurts, that’s hard, scares the crap out of you. And then coming back and recovering. Paul: It’s critical, right? And I called that big circle, our scientists will refer to that as the zone of productive disequilibrium, right? Lisa: Those are scientists’ words? Paul: Yeah, exactly. So you're out of balance, you're out of whack. But it is where adaptation happens. And this is the problem. So we are by our very nature, we are comfort seekers, right. And just because all of our history has been of discomfort, and so it's pretty natural that we're comfort seekers. The problem is that we have an ancient genome in a modern world. Our genome hasn't changed in 45,000 years, right. And for the vast majority of our human history, we had lots of discomfort, life was uncomfortable, and we became the dominant species on Earth, largely because we adapted better to environmental stressors and pressures than other species right. Now, what's happened in the last 100 years since the Industrial Revolution, particularly in the last 30 years, is that we have stopped adapting to our environment, and we've started changing it. And recently, we've changed our environment to such a level that we're no longer optimally matched to it genetically, right. So when we seek comfort, we get soft, we develop a soft underbelly. And this is what a lot of the positive psychology people do not talk about, is that getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.  And you can just do this, quite simply, if you're sitting listening to this, think of your biggest achievement in your life, something that you are most proud of. And I guarantee you, for almost every listener, it will involve stress and being out of your comfort zone. But we need to hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen. And lots of people spend most of their life in that little small circle, the comfort zone, and they dip their toe into the uncomfortable zone of productive disequilibrium. They go, ‘This is uncomfortable. I'm getting right out of here’. No good shit ever happened in your comfort zone. Right? Lisa: It’s a quote from Paul Taylor, ‘No good shit ever happens in your comfort zone’. You gotta put that one on the wall. Paul: It’s like past 2am. Right?  That's the thing, no good shit happens there. So, it is about seeking discomfort. And one of my things, which you actually exemplify much better than me, but it’s that get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Right? Yeah, that's really key. And I think we have, as a generation, particularly in the West, we have got comfortable with being comfortable. And we are comfort seekers. Lisa: Getting cosy all the time. Paul: It's all, it's served up to us everywhere. And we're prompted to buy things and do things that make us comfortable. And it's natural to want to go there. But it's not self-serving. Lisa: But our biology isn't, our epi genome isn't suited. Paul: Absolutely not. Lisa: Getting out of that thermoneutral zone, for example, like cold showers, cold water, hot. All of these things that are outside the neutral zone are where the change happens, from a physiological point of view. If I hop into a sauna, I'm going to create heat-shock proteins, I’m gonna sweat. That's going to cause all this cascade of events in my body that will make me stronger. The next time when I go to the gym and I work out with weights, then I'm going to be sore and I'm going to be breaking down the tissues. What happens is a cascade of events that makes me stronger for next week. Paul: And here's the thing, right, that if somebody wants, if somebody goes one, if someone hasn’t been trained for ages and particularly, they’re bloke. And they go riding got to get back and then they go to a CrossFit class or F 45 hard core. And they go, ‘Jesus. That was ridiculous. I'm never doing that again’. But then you're not going to adapt, right? You only get bigger, faster, stronger, because you hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen right. Now, seeking comfort, we should do that when we're in recovery, right? But a lot of people, and we should really define the difference between recovery and relaxation. Right? Recovery isn't sitting with your feet up with a bottle of wine watching Netflix, right? Recovery is stuff that is actually energising you, right? It’s doing the breathing stuff, it’s doing the meditation, doing the tai chi, the qi gong, those sorts of things, yoga. Or for some people, it's drawing, it's reading a book, it's connecting with others, it's gardening, it's spending time in nature. These are all things that really help us with that balance between stress and recovery. And when, if we get that right, the stress becomes used stress. And if we are just exposed to that too much or don't get the recovery, right, it's de stress. And then we can go into burnout/overtraining syndrome, which then when you look at the physiology between overtrained athletes and burnt out executives and depressed people, it’s almost identical. Lisa: Yeah. And like, I've had to try to get my head around this because when you're an athlete—and I grew up in a household where being tough was cool. And physical toughness and mental toughness were what was valued and what was rewarded in my family. So therefore, I have this complete construct in my head that if you're not tough, and you're not hard ass all the time, then you're useless. And I had to deconstruct that a little bit because that lead me to burnout, that broke me, that lead to hell of a lot of pain in sickness and all sorts of things. Now, as I'm hopefully older and wiser, I know that my body also has a full on and it has to have a full off. And that recovery is really important. And that recovery can be cuddling the cat, it can be going to the beach with my husband and just staring at the waves for half an hour to recover. It doesn't have to be something epic, and it can be something like the sauna

Paul: So Amy, I was talking to somebody the other day and they told me that you had quite a number of like interesting little odd jobs. So I'm interested, so could you tell me a bit about that.Amy: I don't know how odd they were. I don't know. When I was in university, part time jobs, I used to work in restaurants and—the usual stuff—restaurants, and I think my favorite was working in a nightclub. It was a really, really big nightclub and I used to work on the floor, just kind of cleaning up, looking after all the drunk patrons.And my first night there was—actually, one of my favorite DJs was on, so that was great. I got to listen to really good music whilst finding money on the floor, and cleaning up after folks. It was really good.Paul: You found some money on the floor.Amy: Yeah. You know, it was a busy club. Really, really full, a good couple of thousand people in there. And I guess people were doing whatever they were doing and they would drop big wads of cash. And because I was the person to clean up all the glass bottles, then I would find the wads of cash on the floor. So it was good. I'd get my wages, I'd get tips, and then I would get my own personal tips from finding money on the floor.Paul: So you must have found like a whole range of different things, like, what else did you find?Amy: Yeah. A little wraps of things, and then packets of things, yeah. I mean, I had to work hard for the money. It wasn't easy because the place was full, absolutely rammed of people. Everybody is incredibly drunk or whatever and they all just want to dance and have a good time. And I have to make sure there's no broken glass for safety reasons, obviously. So I'm pushing my way through the crowd and keeping eyes on the floor constantly with a torch. And alongside the broken glass that I would sweep up would be, yeah, wads of cash, sometimes little purses, little bags, things like that.When I find, like, identification for things—when it was a purse, I would do the right thing with it, hand it in but it was just a wad up, like a rolled-up set of notes, I would just put them in my pocket for me, basically.Paul: Yeah, it's difficult to know what to do with cash because you're handing it to someone who—well, it's cash, isn't it?Amy: I know.Paul: Yeah, yeah.Amy: I remember finding some driving license and student ID, and I took—it was actually the same university that I went to at the time, and I just took it to uni when I was going during the week. And I handed it in to make sure that it got back to the owner because you know that's the worst thing about when you lose your purse or your wallet. The cash, you can kind of just say goodbye to. It's a given really that it's going to be gone, but it's your ID and your cards and everything. It's such a hassle trying to get them back again. So I wanted to make sure that whoever drunken idiot dropped them in that club that it got back to their hands safely.Paul: Well, that's nice. So you're a thief with heart then.Amy: I'm not a thief. I'm an opportunist.Paul: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Amy: It's on the floor.Paul: I'm pulling your leg, Amy. No, I would have done the same.

Paul: So Amy, I was talking to somebody the other day and they told me that you had quite a number of like interesting little odd jobs. So I'm interested, so could you tell me a bit about that.Amy: I don't know how odd they were. I don't know. When I was in university, part time jobs, I used to work in restaurants and—the usual stuff—restaurants, and I think my favorite was working in a nightclub. It was a really, really big nightclub and I used to work on the floor, just kind of cleaning up, looking after all the drunk patrons.And my first night there was—actually, one of my favorite DJs was on, so that was great. I got to listen to really good music whilst finding money on the floor, and cleaning up after folks. It was really good.Paul: You found some money on the floor.Amy: Yeah. You know, it was a busy club. Really, really full, a good couple of thousand people in there. And I guess people were doing whatever they were doing and they would drop big wads of cash. And because I was the person to clean up all the glass bottles, then I would find the wads of cash on the floor. So it was good. I'd get my wages, I'd get tips, and then I would get my own personal tips from finding money on the floor.Paul: So you must have found like a whole range of different things, like, what else did you find?Amy: Yeah. A little wraps of things, and then packets of things, yeah. I mean, I had to work hard for the money. It wasn't easy because the place was full, absolutely rammed of people. Everybody is incredibly drunk or whatever and they all just want to dance and have a good time. And I have to make sure there's no broken glass for safety reasons, obviously. So I'm pushing my way through the crowd and keeping eyes on the floor constantly with a torch. And alongside the broken glass that I would sweep up would be, yeah, wads of cash, sometimes little purses, little bags, things like that.When I find, like, identification for things—when it was a purse, I would do the right thing with it, hand it in but it was just a wad up, like a rolled-up set of notes, I would just put them in my pocket for me, basically.Paul: Yeah, it's difficult to know what to do with cash because you're handing it to someone who—well, it's cash, isn't it?Amy: I know.Paul: Yeah, yeah.Amy: I remember finding some driving license and student ID, and I took—it was actually the same university that I went to at the time, and I just took it to uni when I was going during the week. And I handed it in to make sure that it got back to the owner because you know that's the worst thing about when you lose your purse or your wallet. The cash, you can kind of just say goodbye to. It's a given really that it's going to be gone, but it's your ID and your cards and everything. It's such a hassle trying to get them back again. So I wanted to make sure that whoever drunken idiot dropped them in that club that it got back to their hands safely.Paul: Well, that's nice. So you're a thief with heart then.Amy: I'm not a thief. I'm an opportunist.Paul: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Amy: It's on the floor.Paul: I'm pulling your leg, Amy. No, I would have done the same.

Paul: So Amy, I was talking to somebody the other day and they told me that you had quite a number of like interesting little odd jobs. So I'm interested, so could you tell me a bit about that.Amy: I don't know how odd they were. I don't know. When I was in university, part time jobs, I used to work in restaurants and—the usual stuff—restaurants, and I think my favorite was working in a nightclub. It was a really, really big nightclub and I used to work on the floor, just kind of cleaning up, looking after all the drunk patrons.And my first night there was—actually, one of my favorite DJs was on, so that was great. I got to listen to really good music whilst finding money on the floor, and cleaning up after folks. It was really good.Paul: You found some money on the floor.Amy: Yeah. You know, it was a busy club. Really, really full, a good couple of thousand people in there. And I guess people were doing whatever they were doing and they would drop big wads of cash. And because I was the person to clean up all the glass bottles, then I would find the wads of cash on the floor. So it was good. I'd get my wages, I'd get tips, and then I would get my own personal tips from finding money on the floor.Paul: So you must have found like a whole range of different things, like, what else did you find?Amy: Yeah. A little wraps of things, and then packets of things, yeah. I mean, I had to work hard for the money. It wasn't easy because the place was full, absolutely rammed of people. Everybody is incredibly drunk or whatever and they all just want to dance and have a good time. And I have to make sure there's no broken glass for safety reasons, obviously. So I'm pushing my way through the crowd and keeping eyes on the floor constantly with a torch. And alongside the broken glass that I would sweep up would be, yeah, wads of cash, sometimes little purses, little bags, things like that.When I find, like, identification for things—when it was a purse, I would do the right thing with it, hand it in but it was just a wad up, like a rolled-up set of notes, I would just put them in my pocket for me, basically.Paul: Yeah, it's difficult to know what to do with cash because you're handing it to someone who—well, it's cash, isn't it?Amy: I know.Paul: Yeah, yeah.Amy: I remember finding some driving license and student ID, and I took—it was actually the same university that I went to at the time, and I just took it to uni when I was going during the week. And I handed it in to make sure that it got back to the owner because you know that's the worst thing about when you lose your purse or your wallet. The cash, you can kind of just say goodbye to. It's a given really that it's going to be gone, but it's your ID and your cards and everything. It's such a hassle trying to get them back again. So I wanted to make sure that whoever drunken idiot dropped them in that club that it got back to their hands safely.Paul: Well, that's nice. So you're a thief with heart then.Amy: I'm not a thief. I'm an opportunist.Paul: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Amy: It's on the floor.Paul: I'm pulling your leg, Amy. No, I would have done the same.

Aimee: So Paul, what's the most memorable job experience that you have?Paul: Hmm, well, I think the most memorable one is the volunteering time that I spent in Australia. And I was up in the northeastern corner where there's a relatively small rainforest. And I was helping with a research station that's located in the rainforest. So we do a range of different things, going from trying to control coconuts—coconut trees.Aimee: Control?Paul: Yeah, because, like, believe it or not, you imagine this kind of tropical paradise to have coconut trees but they're actually very invasive and they're not native to that area. And basically, if you let a population of coconut trees to go out of control, nothing else can grow.Aimee: Oh.They drop their fronds, and they drop, obviously the coconuts, and nothing else can grow. So you basically lose a lot of the native species there. So we're trying to keep them under control. There was also caring for bats that had been orphaned. Sometimes they're born with physical disabilities that mean they can't survive in the wild.Aimee: Like a sanctuary then?Paul: Yes. Just like a sanctuary, yeah. So they take care of—Aimee: What size of bats, like any other—Paul: Fruit bats.Aimee: What size are they?Paul: They're pretty, like, once they spread—they're like little monkeys with big wings.Aimee: Yeah. So what's their wingspan then? About?Paul: Let's say, maybe, I guess up to probably 4 feet. Does that sound too much?Aimee: So about a meter?Paul: Yeah. Some of the big dudes, they got huge wingspan.Aimee: Oh, the only bats I've seen in real life are really tiny. They're just like mice.Paul: Oh, the micro-bats.Aimee: They're like little birds, you know. You see them flying around and you think, “Oh that's birds.” No, they're bats. So these guys sound pretty big.Paul: Hmm, but they're completely like omnivorous. They only eat fruit, so like, they really—Aimee: Do they eat the coconuts?Paul: Well, the coconuts are kind of tough for them to get into. You need to be able to make a hole, I suppose, to get that.Aimee: Of course, yeah.Paul: But they eat all, mostly like fleshy fruits; apples or whatever they can get really—berries. They're really important for spreading—because obviously, they eat the flesh of the fruit but they don't eat the seeds. So they just kind of pass through them and they're really useful for dispersing seeds. So rainforest regeneration, they're very important animals.Aimee: So they're like the big bumblebees of the rainforest, then.Paul: Yeah. I guess you could look at it like that, yeah. So yeah, that was an interesting volunteering kind of odd job that I had, I suppose.Aimee: Yeah. Essentially yet really cool.Paul: I really like to go back there someday.

Aimee: So Paul, what's the most memorable job experience that you have?Paul: Hmm, well, I think the most memorable one is the volunteering time that I spent in Australia. And I was up in the northeastern corner where there's a relatively small rainforest. And I was helping with a research station that's located in the rainforest. So we do a range of different things, going from trying to control coconuts—coconut trees.Aimee: Control?Paul: Yeah, because, like, believe it or not, you imagine this kind of tropical paradise to have coconut trees but they're actually very invasive and they're not native to that area. And basically, if you let a population of coconut trees to go out of control, nothing else can grow.Aimee: Oh.They drop their fronds, and they drop, obviously the coconuts, and nothing else can grow. So you basically lose a lot of the native species there. So we're trying to keep them under control. There was also caring for bats that had been orphaned. Sometimes they're born with physical disabilities that mean they can't survive in the wild.Aimee: Like a sanctuary then?Paul: Yes. Just like a sanctuary, yeah. So they take care of—Aimee: What size of bats, like any other—Paul: Fruit bats.Aimee: What size are they?Paul: They're pretty, like, once they spread—they're like little monkeys with big wings.Aimee: Yeah. So what's their wingspan then? About?Paul: Let's say, maybe, I guess up to probably 4 feet. Does that sound too much?Aimee: So about a meter?Paul: Yeah. Some of the big dudes, they got huge wingspan.Aimee: Oh, the only bats I've seen in real life are really tiny. They're just like mice.Paul: Oh, the micro-bats.Aimee: They're like little birds, you know. You see them flying around and you think, “Oh that's birds.” No, they're bats. So these guys sound pretty big.Paul: Hmm, but they're completely like omnivorous. They only eat fruit, so like, they really—Aimee: Do they eat the coconuts?Paul: Well, the coconuts are kind of tough for them to get into. You need to be able to make a hole, I suppose, to get that.Aimee: Of course, yeah.Paul: But they eat all, mostly like fleshy fruits; apples or whatever they can get really—berries. They're really important for spreading—because obviously, they eat the flesh of the fruit but they don't eat the seeds. So they just kind of pass through them and they're really useful for dispersing seeds. So rainforest regeneration, they're very important animals.Aimee: So they're like the big bumblebees of the rainforest, then.Paul: Yeah. I guess you could look at it like that, yeah. So yeah, that was an interesting volunteering kind of odd job that I had, I suppose.Aimee: Yeah. Essentially yet really cool.Paul: I really like to go back there someday.

Aimee: So Paul, what's the most memorable job experience that you have?Paul: Hmm, well, I think the most memorable one is the volunteering time that I spent in Australia. And I was up in the northeastern corner where there's a relatively small rainforest. And I was helping with a research station that's located in the rainforest. So we do a range of different things, going from trying to control coconuts—coconut trees.Aimee: Control?Paul: Yeah, because, like, believe it or not, you imagine this kind of tropical paradise to have coconut trees but they're actually very invasive and they're not native to that area. And basically, if you let a population of coconut trees to go out of control, nothing else can grow.Aimee: Oh.They drop their fronds, and they drop, obviously the coconuts, and nothing else can grow. So you basically lose a lot of the native species there. So we're trying to keep them under control. There was also caring for bats that had been orphaned. Sometimes they're born with physical disabilities that mean they can't survive in the wild.Aimee: Like a sanctuary then?Paul: Yes. Just like a sanctuary, yeah. So they take care of—Aimee: What size of bats, like any other—Paul: Fruit bats.Aimee: What size are they?Paul: They're pretty, like, once they spread—they're like little monkeys with big wings.Aimee: Yeah. So what's their wingspan then? About?Paul: Let's say, maybe, I guess up to probably 4 feet. Does that sound too much?Aimee: So about a meter?Paul: Yeah. Some of the big dudes, they got huge wingspan.Aimee: Oh, the only bats I've seen in real life are really tiny. They're just like mice.Paul: Oh, the micro-bats.Aimee: They're like little birds, you know. You see them flying around and you think, “Oh that's birds.” No, they're bats. So these guys sound pretty big.Paul: Hmm, but they're completely like omnivorous. They only eat fruit, so like, they really—Aimee: Do they eat the coconuts?Paul: Well, the coconuts are kind of tough for them to get into. You need to be able to make a hole, I suppose, to get that.Aimee: Of course, yeah.Paul: But they eat all, mostly like fleshy fruits; apples or whatever they can get really—berries. They're really important for spreading—because obviously, they eat the flesh of the fruit but they don't eat the seeds. So they just kind of pass through them and they're really useful for dispersing seeds. So rainforest regeneration, they're very important animals.Aimee: So they're like the big bumblebees of the rainforest, then.Paul: Yeah. I guess you could look at it like that, yeah. So yeah, that was an interesting volunteering kind of odd job that I had, I suppose.Aimee: Yeah. Essentially yet really cool.Paul: I really like to go back there someday.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Aimee: So Paul, speaking of technology, how long do you think you can go without checking your phone?Paul: Ah, it's quite embarrassing, really, if I'm honest, I check it a lot. I really do, like I'm always having to look at Facebook, my emails. I'm looking at the football news online… yeah, I mean ….It's not something that I'm proud about; but it's something that, yeah, it's quite a big part of my life, I think.Aimee: If you left the house and you had forgotten your phone, would you feel something really missing?Paul: I did actually I forgot my…I use my iPad a lot, and I forgot my iPad the other day just as I was leaving, and my bus was about to arrive. And I really had the strong like pull to get back for it. But I caught myself and decided that yeah, I can manage without it, you know, for one day.Aimee: Could you manage?Paul: Yeah, I did, I didn't even think about it actually. It was just that you know, that sort of momentary pull where I thought I needed it, and then actually having you know, sort of considered it seriously. It was like, I don't need it, so yeah, I did find without it I didn't have to be like hooked up to a life support system or anything. Yeah, it's amazing really, how it comes to be such a central part in your life. How long do you think you could go without using the internet?Aimee: Ahh, I check my phone thousands of times a day… To exaggerate, did I say thousands? I check it too much, I think, far too much. If I left my home, I would feel gutted. I would feel like I'm really, really missing something. It would definitely be a big, big pull, I think. I read a lot of things on the internet and I check things and, and yeah. When it's not there, then I do feel like something is maybe I should be doing something, or missing out on something. And it's not good - I'm embarrassed it's not good at all. So I think I need to work on unplugging.Paul: I've heard a lot of people they try to do at least one or two days a week when they don't use the internet at all. But that sounds like it could be quite a good idea. You know, maybe just you know, unplug.Aimee: Yeah. Do you think you could?Paul: I think I could, yeah, I think I could. In fact, I really like hiking and being outdoors, and, I think one of the things I really love about it is that I'm … nobody can contact me, you know? And I'm kinda away from everything. And I really enjoy those moments.Aimee: Uhm, yeah. I don't know if I could. I always have to cut down before going cold turkey, I think, I've got to cut down. I'm trying to cut down. You know, I mentioned before, I'm trying to get back into reading uhm, just get back into real books instead of screen time. So, yeah, I couldn't go cold turkey, I think, a couple of days a week. I would need to cut down.Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we should probably yeah, make a concerted effort I think it is probably good for us to try to reduce our, you know, user time.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Aimee: So Paul, speaking of technology, how long do you think you can go without checking your phone?Paul: Ah, it's quite embarrassing, really, if I'm honest, I check it a lot. I really do, like I'm always having to look at Facebook, my emails. I'm looking at the football news online… yeah, I mean ….It's not something that I'm proud about; but it's something that, yeah, it's quite a big part of my life, I think.Aimee: If you left the house and you had forgotten your phone, would you feel something really missing?Paul: I did actually I forgot my…I use my iPad a lot, and I forgot my iPad the other day just as I was leaving, and my bus was about to arrive. And I really had the strong like pull to get back for it. But I caught myself and decided that yeah, I can manage without it, you know, for one day.Aimee: Could you manage?Paul: Yeah, I did, I didn't even think about it actually. It was just that you know, that sort of momentary pull where I thought I needed it, and then actually having you know, sort of considered it seriously. It was like, I don't need it, so yeah, I did find without it I didn't have to be like hooked up to a life support system or anything. Yeah, it's amazing really, how it comes to be such a central part in your life. How long do you think you could go without using the internet?Aimee: Ahh, I check my phone thousands of times a day… To exaggerate, did I say thousands? I check it too much, I think, far too much. If I left my home, I would feel gutted. I would feel like I'm really, really missing something. It would definitely be a big, big pull, I think. I read a lot of things on the internet and I check things and, and yeah. When it's not there, then I do feel like something is maybe I should be doing something, or missing out on something. And it's not good - I'm embarrassed it's not good at all. So I think I need to work on unplugging.Paul: I've heard a lot of people they try to do at least one or two days a week when they don't use the internet at all. But that sounds like it could be quite a good idea. You know, maybe just you know, unplug.Aimee: Yeah. Do you think you could?Paul: I think I could, yeah, I think I could. In fact, I really like hiking and being outdoors, and, I think one of the things I really love about it is that I'm … nobody can contact me, you know? And I'm kinda away from everything. And I really enjoy those moments.Aimee: Uhm, yeah. I don't know if I could. I always have to cut down before going cold turkey, I think, I've got to cut down. I'm trying to cut down. You know, I mentioned before, I'm trying to get back into reading uhm, just get back into real books instead of screen time. So, yeah, I couldn't go cold turkey, I think, a couple of days a week. I would need to cut down.Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we should probably yeah, make a concerted effort I think it is probably good for us to try to reduce our, you know, user time.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Aimee: So Paul, speaking of technology, how long do you think you can go without checking your phone?Paul: Ah, it's quite embarrassing, really, if I'm honest, I check it a lot. I really do, like I'm always having to look at Facebook, my emails. I'm looking at the football news online… yeah, I mean ….It's not something that I'm proud about; but it's something that, yeah, it's quite a big part of my life, I think.Aimee: If you left the house and you had forgotten your phone, would you feel something really missing?Paul: I did actually I forgot my…I use my iPad a lot, and I forgot my iPad the other day just as I was leaving, and my bus was about to arrive. And I really had the strong like pull to get back for it. But I caught myself and decided that yeah, I can manage without it, you know, for one day.Aimee: Could you manage?Paul: Yeah, I did, I didn't even think about it actually. It was just that you know, that sort of momentary pull where I thought I needed it, and then actually having you know, sort of considered it seriously. It was like, I don't need it, so yeah, I did find without it I didn't have to be like hooked up to a life support system or anything. Yeah, it's amazing really, how it comes to be such a central part in your life. How long do you think you could go without using the internet?Aimee: Ahh, I check my phone thousands of times a day… To exaggerate, did I say thousands? I check it too much, I think, far too much. If I left my home, I would feel gutted. I would feel like I'm really, really missing something. It would definitely be a big, big pull, I think. I read a lot of things on the internet and I check things and, and yeah. When it's not there, then I do feel like something is maybe I should be doing something, or missing out on something. And it's not good - I'm embarrassed it's not good at all. So I think I need to work on unplugging.Paul: I've heard a lot of people they try to do at least one or two days a week when they don't use the internet at all. But that sounds like it could be quite a good idea. You know, maybe just you know, unplug.Aimee: Yeah. Do you think you could?Paul: I think I could, yeah, I think I could. In fact, I really like hiking and being outdoors, and, I think one of the things I really love about it is that I'm … nobody can contact me, you know? And I'm kinda away from everything. And I really enjoy those moments.Aimee: Uhm, yeah. I don't know if I could. I always have to cut down before going cold turkey, I think, I've got to cut down. I'm trying to cut down. You know, I mentioned before, I'm trying to get back into reading uhm, just get back into real books instead of screen time. So, yeah, I couldn't go cold turkey, I think, a couple of days a week. I would need to cut down.Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we should probably yeah, make a concerted effort I think it is probably good for us to try to reduce our, you know, user time.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So Aimee, do you always check your emails in the morning?Aimee: Probably. Probably. Recently, I'm trying to stop using my electronic devices so much. So I think in the morning, I need to do other things but very often, I will quickly scan my phone and check because my phone is also my alarm clock, so it's right there. It's too handy.Paul: Yeah. I'm always one that wake up—I don't know, I've got this really bad habit where I think something major has happened during the night. And so I wake up and I'm checking different websites and checking Facebook to see if there's any messages or any great news over the course of the night.Yeah, it's a really bad habit, you know. It starts to kind of dominate your life. Yeah, I think it's quite addictive things, isn't it?Aimee: Yeah. I've been thinking about it a lot recently. And it's something I think that doesn't need to be in the morning routine so much. It's good to just get your head ready before you—your head and your body ready before you start thinking about checking emails and stuff.Paul: I agree. I heard somebody—there was a piece of advice, I can't remember where I heard it from. But it was just to check your emails twice a day. You know, you don't need to do more than that. Check once in the morning, once in the evening, that's it. Check your news websites, maybe twice a day rather than every 30 minutes or something.Aimee: Yeah, that's—Paul: Yeah. I think it requires discipline doesn't it?Aimee: It does.Paul: Yeah.Aimee: It's good advice but I don't know if it's very practical because if you're using a smartphone, which I do, then you're using it first, it's got so many different function and you need it for—need it, I guess is a loose term. But you use it for so many different things. So it's always there, you know. Always there.However, I did start reading a book the other day, so I'm trying to stop looking at my phone and start reading a book instead.Paul: Oh, good for you. Yeah.Aimee: Thanks.Paul: That's good move. Yeah, I should perhaps do that myself.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So Aimee, do you always check your emails in the morning?Aimee: Probably. Probably. Recently, I'm trying to stop using my electronic devices so much. So I think in the morning, I need to do other things but very often, I will quickly scan my phone and check because my phone is also my alarm clock, so it's right there. It's too handy.Paul: Yeah. I'm always one that wake up—I don't know, I've got this really bad habit where I think something major has happened during the night. And so I wake up and I'm checking different websites and checking Facebook to see if there's any messages or any great news over the course of the night.Yeah, it's a really bad habit, you know. It starts to kind of dominate your life. Yeah, I think it's quite addictive things, isn't it?Aimee: Yeah. I've been thinking about it a lot recently. And it's something I think that doesn't need to be in the morning routine so much. It's good to just get your head ready before you—your head and your body ready before you start thinking about checking emails and stuff.Paul: I agree. I heard somebody—there was a piece of advice, I can't remember where I heard it from. But it was just to check your emails twice a day. You know, you don't need to do more than that. Check once in the morning, once in the evening, that's it. Check your news websites, maybe twice a day rather than every 30 minutes or something.Aimee: Yeah, that's—Paul: Yeah. I think it requires discipline doesn't it?Aimee: It does.Paul: Yeah.Aimee: It's good advice but I don't know if it's very practical because if you're using a smartphone, which I do, then you're using it first, it's got so many different function and you need it for—need it, I guess is a loose term. But you use it for so many different things. So it's always there, you know. Always there.However, I did start reading a book the other day, so I'm trying to stop looking at my phone and start reading a book instead.Paul: Oh, good for you. Yeah.Aimee: Thanks.Paul: That's good move. Yeah, I should perhaps do that myself.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So Aimee, do you always check your emails in the morning?Aimee: Probably. Probably. Recently, I'm trying to stop using my electronic devices so much. So I think in the morning, I need to do other things but very often, I will quickly scan my phone and check because my phone is also my alarm clock, so it's right there. It's too handy.Paul: Yeah. I'm always one that wake up—I don't know, I've got this really bad habit where I think something major has happened during the night. And so I wake up and I'm checking different websites and checking Facebook to see if there's any messages or any great news over the course of the night.Yeah, it's a really bad habit, you know. It starts to kind of dominate your life. Yeah, I think it's quite addictive things, isn't it?Aimee: Yeah. I've been thinking about it a lot recently. And it's something I think that doesn't need to be in the morning routine so much. It's good to just get your head ready before you—your head and your body ready before you start thinking about checking emails and stuff.Paul: I agree. I heard somebody—there was a piece of advice, I can't remember where I heard it from. But it was just to check your emails twice a day. You know, you don't need to do more than that. Check once in the morning, once in the evening, that's it. Check your news websites, maybe twice a day rather than every 30 minutes or something.Aimee: Yeah, that's—Paul: Yeah. I think it requires discipline doesn't it?Aimee: It does.Paul: Yeah.Aimee: It's good advice but I don't know if it's very practical because if you're using a smartphone, which I do, then you're using it first, it's got so many different function and you need it for—need it, I guess is a loose term. But you use it for so many different things. So it's always there, you know. Always there.However, I did start reading a book the other day, so I'm trying to stop looking at my phone and start reading a book instead.Paul: Oh, good for you. Yeah.Aimee: Thanks.Paul: That's good move. Yeah, I should perhaps do that myself.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hi, Amy.Amy: Hi.Paul: So we're talking about routines and in the evening, what's your usual routine?Amy: Get home, wash hands, usually just try and get the dinner organized. Dinner and get my daughter ready for bed, usually. Just get her sorted before I think about relaxing or doing anything else because if I sit down, I never want to stand back up again when I get from work.So yeah, my evening routine is usually pretty steady. Just get everybody fed, the youngest person washed into bed, and then I can relax. How about you?Paul: Yeah, I live alone, so I get back from work and I try to cook for myself. So most nights of the week, I'll probably go home and I then go to the supermarket, get some stuff to cook and cook dinner and then maybe relax in front of my computer, watch some TV and maybe do some work.But maybe that's my routine for about five nights of the week. And then maybe, the other two nights, I'll go out with friends and go for dinner and maybe go for a few drinks.Amy: Sounds good.Paul: Yeah.Amy: Yeah, I was thinking about my weekday routine. I guess weekend routine is more relaxed. It's not as stuck, I guess. The weekend, yeah, we'd maybe go for dinner or go for a bath.Paul: So Amy, you sound, you know, very much into family life. Do you ever sort of miss being single?Amy: My single life routine?Paul: Yeah.Amy: I think I sometimes miss the freedom and maybe the—especially the freedom with my finances, just being able to spend my money on myself, going out to concerts or nightclubs. Yeah, sometimes but not very much. I think what has replaced it is good for my current lifestyle. I think it suits me. I'm happy.Paul: So you'd recommend family life to somebody like me who's single?Amy: If you find the right family, I think yeah. Family life is good. It's fun. You'd find that families can stick with other families and the adults can still have a laugh and have adult conversation and the kids can play. If the kids are happy, then the parents are happy and you can still have a laugh and hopefully, not talk about too many childish things. You don't have to talk about changing nappies or anything—Paul: So you still have a social life then?Amy: We try to, yes. We try to. Yeah, when budget allows and our daughter, she's five, so there's more freedom that comes when your children get older. When they're younger, then the rule a bit more, unfortunately. But such as life. I would recommend it, Paul, yes.Paul: Okay. I'll have to think seriously about it. Thanks, Amy.Amy: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hi, Amy.Amy: Hi.Paul: So we're talking about routines and in the evening, what's your usual routine?Amy: Get home, wash hands, usually just try and get the dinner organized. Dinner and get my daughter ready for bed, usually. Just get her sorted before I think about relaxing or doing anything else because if I sit down, I never want to stand back up again when I get from work.So yeah, my evening routine is usually pretty steady. Just get everybody fed, the youngest person washed into bed, and then I can relax. How about you?Paul: Yeah, I live alone, so I get back from work and I try to cook for myself. So most nights of the week, I'll probably go home and I then go to the supermarket, get some stuff to cook and cook dinner and then maybe relax in front of my computer, watch some TV and maybe do some work.But maybe that's my routine for about five nights of the week. And then maybe, the other two nights, I'll go out with friends and go for dinner and maybe go for a few drinks.Amy: Sounds good.Paul: Yeah.Amy: Yeah, I was thinking about my weekday routine. I guess weekend routine is more relaxed. It's not as stuck, I guess. The weekend, yeah, we'd maybe go for dinner or go for a bath.Paul: So Amy, you sound, you know, very much into family life. Do you ever sort of miss being single?Amy: My single life routine?Paul: Yeah.Amy: I think I sometimes miss the freedom and maybe the—especially the freedom with my finances, just being able to spend my money on myself, going out to concerts or nightclubs. Yeah, sometimes but not very much. I think what has replaced it is good for my current lifestyle. I think it suits me. I'm happy.Paul: So you'd recommend family life to somebody like me who's single?Amy: If you find the right family, I think yeah. Family life is good. It's fun. You'd find that families can stick with other families and the adults can still have a laugh and have adult conversation and the kids can play. If the kids are happy, then the parents are happy and you can still have a laugh and hopefully, not talk about too many childish things. You don't have to talk about changing nappies or anything—Paul: So you still have a social life then?Amy: We try to, yes. We try to. Yeah, when budget allows and our daughter, she's five, so there's more freedom that comes when your children get older. When they're younger, then the rule a bit more, unfortunately. But such as life. I would recommend it, Paul, yes.Paul: Okay. I'll have to think seriously about it. Thanks, Amy.Amy: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hi, Amy.Amy: Hi.Paul: So we're talking about routines and in the evening, what's your usual routine?Amy: Get home, wash hands, usually just try and get the dinner organized. Dinner and get my daughter ready for bed, usually. Just get her sorted before I think about relaxing or doing anything else because if I sit down, I never want to stand back up again when I get from work.So yeah, my evening routine is usually pretty steady. Just get everybody fed, the youngest person washed into bed, and then I can relax. How about you?Paul: Yeah, I live alone, so I get back from work and I try to cook for myself. So most nights of the week, I'll probably go home and I then go to the supermarket, get some stuff to cook and cook dinner and then maybe relax in front of my computer, watch some TV and maybe do some work.But maybe that's my routine for about five nights of the week. And then maybe, the other two nights, I'll go out with friends and go for dinner and maybe go for a few drinks.Amy: Sounds good.Paul: Yeah.Amy: Yeah, I was thinking about my weekday routine. I guess weekend routine is more relaxed. It's not as stuck, I guess. The weekend, yeah, we'd maybe go for dinner or go for a bath.Paul: So Amy, you sound, you know, very much into family life. Do you ever sort of miss being single?Amy: My single life routine?Paul: Yeah.Amy: I think I sometimes miss the freedom and maybe the—especially the freedom with my finances, just being able to spend my money on myself, going out to concerts or nightclubs. Yeah, sometimes but not very much. I think what has replaced it is good for my current lifestyle. I think it suits me. I'm happy.Paul: So you'd recommend family life to somebody like me who's single?Amy: If you find the right family, I think yeah. Family life is good. It's fun. You'd find that families can stick with other families and the adults can still have a laugh and have adult conversation and the kids can play. If the kids are happy, then the parents are happy and you can still have a laugh and hopefully, not talk about too many childish things. You don't have to talk about changing nappies or anything—Paul: So you still have a social life then?Amy: We try to, yes. We try to. Yeah, when budget allows and our daughter, she's five, so there's more freedom that comes when your children get older. When they're younger, then the rule a bit more, unfortunately. But such as life. I would recommend it, Paul, yes.Paul: Okay. I'll have to think seriously about it. Thanks, Amy.Amy: You're welcome.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hi, Amy.Amy: Hi.Paul: How are you?Amy: I'm all right. Thanks. How are you?Paul: Yeah, pretty good. I was thinking the other day about routine. I mean, do you follow like a strict routine?Amy: Not really. I'm pretty laid-back, I think.Paul: I see.Amy: Workdays, you have to follow a routine, I guess because you have to get ready, you have to get out the door. But on days off, I just do what I feel like pretty much. Pretty relaxed.Paul: Well, that I think is important isn't it, to relax on your days off. But like on a workday, so what do you do first in the morning?Amy: I think probably what everybody does first. I have to go to the bathroom.Paul: Okay. I mean, what do you do after that? Do you make yourself a hot drink?Amy: I wash my face and brush teeth, pretty much, and then cajole my daughter into getting on with her morning routine as well, making sure she's ready.Paul: I see. So you've got to get two people ready.Amy: Yes, I do. How about you?Paul: I just need to worry about myself really. I think that's enough, you know.Amy: Is that a big task?Paul: Yeah. Well, I always have a cup of tea in the morning. First thing, I always put the kettle on and make a hot drink. And I usually try to eat like a good breakfast, not just a piece of toast or something but maybe some eggs, scrambled eggs and maybe some bacon and some toast. Yeah, I try to leave the house with a full stomach.Amy: Yeah, that's good. I try to do that as well. Sometimes, we're pretty　rushed and breakfast is sometimes eaten in the car. But we do get full stomachs eventually.Paul: Right, right.Amy: Do you ever have fruit with your breakfast?Paul: I don't. I know some people eat like a grapefruit. Actually, occasionally, I have a banana.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because I just find it's really easy, and convenient, and quick.Amy: I agree.Paul: But stuff like, you know, grapefruits and oranges, you have to peel them. Yeah, I just don't have the time really in the morning.Amy: Too much like hard work?Paul: Yeah. But if I stay in like if I'm on a holiday in a hotel and they have like a nice breakfast, I always try to eat fruit. So I always try to eat a bit of everything actually.Amy: When it's there in front of you, ready.Paul: When it's made for you, yeah.Amy: I do that, too, definitely.Paul: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hi, Amy.Amy: Hi.Paul: How are you?Amy: I'm all right. Thanks. How are you?Paul: Yeah, pretty good. I was thinking the other day about routine. I mean, do you follow like a strict routine?Amy: Not really. I'm pretty laid-back, I think.Paul: I see.Amy: Workdays, you have to follow a routine, I guess because you have to get ready, you have to get out the door. But on days off, I just do what I feel like pretty much. Pretty relaxed.Paul: Well, that I think is important isn't it, to relax on your days off. But like on a workday, so what do you do first in the morning?Amy: I think probably what everybody does first. I have to go to the bathroom.Paul: Okay. I mean, what do you do after that? Do you make yourself a hot drink?Amy: I wash my face and brush teeth, pretty much, and then cajole my daughter into getting on with her morning routine as well, making sure she's ready.Paul: I see. So you've got to get two people ready.Amy: Yes, I do. How about you?Paul: I just need to worry about myself really. I think that's enough, you know.Amy: Is that a big task?Paul: Yeah. Well, I always have a cup of tea in the morning. First thing, I always put the kettle on and make a hot drink. And I usually try to eat like a good breakfast, not just a piece of toast or something but maybe some eggs, scrambled eggs and maybe some bacon and some toast. Yeah, I try to leave the house with a full stomach.Amy: Yeah, that's good. I try to do that as well. Sometimes, we're pretty　rushed and breakfast is sometimes eaten in the car. But we do get full stomachs eventually.Paul: Right, right.Amy: Do you ever have fruit with your breakfast?Paul: I don't. I know some people eat like a grapefruit. Actually, occasionally, I have a banana.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because I just find it's really easy, and convenient, and quick.Amy: I agree.Paul: But stuff like, you know, grapefruits and oranges, you have to peel them. Yeah, I just don't have the time really in the morning.Amy: Too much like hard work?Paul: Yeah. But if I stay in like if I'm on a holiday in a hotel and they have like a nice breakfast, I always try to eat fruit. So I always try to eat a bit of everything actually.Amy: When it's there in front of you, ready.Paul: When it's made for you, yeah.Amy: I do that, too, definitely.Paul: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: Hi, Amy.Amy: Hi.Paul: How are you?Amy: I'm all right. Thanks. How are you?Paul: Yeah, pretty good. I was thinking the other day about routine. I mean, do you follow like a strict routine?Amy: Not really. I'm pretty laid-back, I think.Paul: I see.Amy: Workdays, you have to follow a routine, I guess because you have to get ready, you have to get out the door. But on days off, I just do what I feel like pretty much. Pretty relaxed.Paul: Well, that I think is important isn't it, to relax on your days off. But like on a workday, so what do you do first in the morning?Amy: I think probably what everybody does first. I have to go to the bathroom.Paul: Okay. I mean, what do you do after that? Do you make yourself a hot drink?Amy: I wash my face and brush teeth, pretty much, and then cajole my daughter into getting on with her morning routine as well, making sure she's ready.Paul: I see. So you've got to get two people ready.Amy: Yes, I do. How about you?Paul: I just need to worry about myself really. I think that's enough, you know.Amy: Is that a big task?Paul: Yeah. Well, I always have a cup of tea in the morning. First thing, I always put the kettle on and make a hot drink. And I usually try to eat like a good breakfast, not just a piece of toast or something but maybe some eggs, scrambled eggs and maybe some bacon and some toast. Yeah, I try to leave the house with a full stomach.Amy: Yeah, that's good. I try to do that as well. Sometimes, we're pretty　rushed and breakfast is sometimes eaten in the car. But we do get full stomachs eventually.Paul: Right, right.Amy: Do you ever have fruit with your breakfast?Paul: I don't. I know some people eat like a grapefruit. Actually, occasionally, I have a banana.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because I just find it's really easy, and convenient, and quick.Amy: I agree.Paul: But stuff like, you know, grapefruits and oranges, you have to peel them. Yeah, I just don't have the time really in the morning.Amy: Too much like hard work?Paul: Yeah. But if I stay in like if I'm on a holiday in a hotel and they have like a nice breakfast, I always try to eat fruit. So I always try to eat a bit of everything actually.Amy: When it's there in front of you, ready.Paul: When it's made for you, yeah.Amy: I do that, too, definitely.Paul: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Amy: How about you? Have you ever been in an accident?Paul: Not a car accident. I was in a bicycle accident.Amy: Yeah?Paul: I laugh now but at the time, it was pretty bad.Amy: What happened?Paul: It was dark and it was Christmas day. And I was on my bicycle going down a quite steep slope and my telephone rang. And I looked at my mobile phone and I took it out of my pocket whilst riding my bike. And looked at it and noticed it was my dad and he was ringing to wish me a happy Christmas.So I felt sort of compelled to answer the phone. So answering the phone, still going down the hill, probably gathering speed. It's dark and I'm trying to get my dad off the phone as soon as I can. And before I knew it, I drove straight into the back of a parked black car.Amy: Oh no.Paul: I saw it at the very last minute. So I hit the back of it and my body slammed into the ground, and I broke a few bones, yeah. Yeah.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah, yeah. It was a pretty miserable Christmas to be honest with you.Amy: I'd say it's terrible. That's the worst.Paul: Yeah.Amy: Did the owner of the car see what happened? Did you damage the car?Paul: I didn't stay long enough. I got out of there pretty quickly.Amy: And went to the hospital.Paul: No, I was a bit stubborn. I don't know why. I was the worst night sleep I've ever had but yeah, I didn't go to the hospital until the next day.Amy: What bones did you break?Paul: I broke my collarbone, the clavicle.Amy: Oh, a nightmare.Paul: And I broke a few ribs.Amy: Oh no, ribs. That's the worst because they can't do anything for it. They just send you on your way and you just have to cough in pain.Paul: Hmm.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah. But it could have been a lot worse, you know.Amy: Hmm, that's true.Paul: Yeah. I could have broken my neck.Amy: So how long did it take you to recover?Paul: It took me about probably six weeks, I suppose.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because then—actually, in the following —it happened on Christmas day, so three months later in the March, I was lucky enough to win a place in the Tokyo marathon. And I really wanted to do it because it's quite difficult to get. It's like a lottery now. There's so many people who apply to get a position.So I wasn't going to let this accident stop me from running the Tokyo marathon. So I was trying to rush it, really and I shouldn't have. But I did. I've run there.Amy: Did you?Paul: Yeah.Amy: Oh, my goodness.Paul: Yeah, I finished it but—Amy: Congratulations. But how were you? That must have really hindered your recovery.Paul: It hindered my training period for the marathon, yeah, so.Amy: But you finished it though.Paul: I finished it, yeah.Amy: Well done.Paul: I wouldn't do it again. Marathons are miserable things to be. Really. Why put yourselves through that pain? I still like running so maybe in the future, I'd do a half marathon or something, yeah. But a full marathon—my marathon days are over, I think. Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Amy: How about you? Have you ever been in an accident?Paul: Not a car accident. I was in a bicycle accident.Amy: Yeah?Paul: I laugh now but at the time, it was pretty bad.Amy: What happened?Paul: It was dark and it was Christmas day. And I was on my bicycle going down a quite steep slope and my telephone rang. And I looked at my mobile phone and I took it out of my pocket whilst riding my bike. And looked at it and noticed it was my dad and he was ringing to wish me a happy Christmas.So I felt sort of compelled to answer the phone. So answering the phone, still going down the hill, probably gathering speed. It's dark and I'm trying to get my dad off the phone as soon as I can. And before I knew it, I drove straight into the back of a parked black car.Amy: Oh no.Paul: I saw it at the very last minute. So I hit the back of it and my body slammed into the ground, and I broke a few bones, yeah. Yeah.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah, yeah. It was a pretty miserable Christmas to be honest with you.Amy: I'd say it's terrible. That's the worst.Paul: Yeah.Amy: Did the owner of the car see what happened? Did you damage the car?Paul: I didn't stay long enough. I got out of there pretty quickly.Amy: And went to the hospital.Paul: No, I was a bit stubborn. I don't know why. I was the worst night sleep I've ever had but yeah, I didn't go to the hospital until the next day.Amy: What bones did you break?Paul: I broke my collarbone, the clavicle.Amy: Oh, a nightmare.Paul: And I broke a few ribs.Amy: Oh no, ribs. That's the worst because they can't do anything for it. They just send you on your way and you just have to cough in pain.Paul: Hmm.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah. But it could have been a lot worse, you know.Amy: Hmm, that's true.Paul: Yeah. I could have broken my neck.Amy: So how long did it take you to recover?Paul: It took me about probably six weeks, I suppose.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because then—actually, in the following —it happened on Christmas day, so three months later in the March, I was lucky enough to win a place in the Tokyo marathon. And I really wanted to do it because it's quite difficult to get. It's like a lottery now. There's so many people who apply to get a position.So I wasn't going to let this accident stop me from running the Tokyo marathon. So I was trying to rush it, really and I shouldn't have. But I did. I've run there.Amy: Did you?Paul: Yeah.Amy: Oh, my goodness.Paul: Yeah, I finished it but—Amy: Congratulations. But how were you? That must have really hindered your recovery.Paul: It hindered my training period for the marathon, yeah, so.Amy: But you finished it though.Paul: I finished it, yeah.Amy: Well done.Paul: I wouldn't do it again. Marathons are miserable things to be. Really. Why put yourselves through that pain? I still like running so maybe in the future, I'd do a half marathon or something, yeah. But a full marathon—my marathon days are over, I think. Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Amy: How about you? Have you ever been in an accident?Paul: Not a car accident. I was in a bicycle accident.Amy: Yeah?Paul: I laugh now but at the time, it was pretty bad.Amy: What happened?Paul: It was dark and it was Christmas day. And I was on my bicycle going down a quite steep slope and my telephone rang. And I looked at my mobile phone and I took it out of my pocket whilst riding my bike. And looked at it and noticed it was my dad and he was ringing to wish me a happy Christmas.So I felt sort of compelled to answer the phone. So answering the phone, still going down the hill, probably gathering speed. It's dark and I'm trying to get my dad off the phone as soon as I can. And before I knew it, I drove straight into the back of a parked black car.Amy: Oh no.Paul: I saw it at the very last minute. So I hit the back of it and my body slammed into the ground, and I broke a few bones, yeah. Yeah.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah, yeah. It was a pretty miserable Christmas to be honest with you.Amy: I'd say it's terrible. That's the worst.Paul: Yeah.Amy: Did the owner of the car see what happened? Did you damage the car?Paul: I didn't stay long enough. I got out of there pretty quickly.Amy: And went to the hospital.Paul: No, I was a bit stubborn. I don't know why. I was the worst night sleep I've ever had but yeah, I didn't go to the hospital until the next day.Amy: What bones did you break?Paul: I broke my collarbone, the clavicle.Amy: Oh, a nightmare.Paul: And I broke a few ribs.Amy: Oh no, ribs. That's the worst because they can't do anything for it. They just send you on your way and you just have to cough in pain.Paul: Hmm.Amy: Oh no.Paul: Yeah. But it could have been a lot worse, you know.Amy: Hmm, that's true.Paul: Yeah. I could have broken my neck.Amy: So how long did it take you to recover?Paul: It took me about probably six weeks, I suppose.Amy: Hmm.Paul: Yeah, because then—actually, in the following —it happened on Christmas day, so three months later in the March, I was lucky enough to win a place in the Tokyo marathon. And I really wanted to do it because it's quite difficult to get. It's like a lottery now. There's so many people who apply to get a position.So I wasn't going to let this accident stop me from running the Tokyo marathon. So I was trying to rush it, really and I shouldn't have. But I did. I've run there.Amy: Did you?Paul: Yeah.Amy: Oh, my goodness.Paul: Yeah, I finished it but—Amy: Congratulations. But how were you? That must have really hindered your recovery.Paul: It hindered my training period for the marathon, yeah, so.Amy: But you finished it though.Paul: I finished it, yeah.Amy: Well done.Paul: I wouldn't do it again. Marathons are miserable things to be. Really. Why put yourselves through that pain? I still like running so maybe in the future, I'd do a half marathon or something, yeah. But a full marathon—my marathon days are over, I think. Yeah.

Some highlights of the show include: The company's cloud native journey, which accelerated with the acquisition of Uswitch.  How the company assessed risk prior to their migration, and why they ultimately decided the task was worth the gamble. Uswitch's transformation into a profitable company resulting from their cloud native migration. The role that multidisciplinary, collaborative teams played in solving problems and moving projects forward. Paul also offers commentary on some of the tensions that resulted between different teams. Key influencing factors that caused the company to adopt containerization and Kubernetes. Paul goes into detail about their migration to Kubernetes, and the problems that it addressed.  Paul's thoughts on management and prioritization as CTO. He also explains his favorite engineering tool, which may come as a surprise.  Links: RVU Website: https://www.rvu.co.uk/ Uswitch Website: https://www.uswitch.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/pingles GitHub: https://github.com/pingles TranscriptAnnouncer: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native podcast, where we explore how end users talk and think about the transition to Kubernetes and cloud-native architectures.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native. I'm your host, Emily Omier, and today I am chatting with Paul Ingles. Paul, thank you so much for joining me.Paul: Thank you for having me.Emily: Could you just introduce yourself: where do you work? What do you do? And include, sort of, some specifics. We all have a job title, but it doesn't always reflect what our actual day-to-day is.Paul: I am the CTO at a company called RVU in London. We run a couple of reasonably big-ish price comparison, aggregator type sites. So, we help consumers figure out and compare prices on broadband products, mobile phones, energy—so in the UK, energy is something which is provided through a bunch of different private companies, so you've got a fair amount of choice on kind of that thing. So, we tried to make it easier and simpler for people to make better decisions on the household choices that they have. I've been there for about 10 years, so I've had a few different roles. So, as CTO now, I sit on the exec team and try to help inform the business and technology strategy. But I've come through a bunch of teams. So, I've worked on some of the early energy price comparison stuff, some data infrastructure work a while ago, and then some underlying DevOps type automation and Kubernetes work a couple of years ago.Emily: So, when you get in to work in the morning, what types of things are usually on your plate?Paul: So, I keep a journal. I use bullet journalling quite extensively. So, I try to track everything that I've got to keep on top of. Generally, what I would try to do each day is catch up with anybody that I specifically need to follow up with. So, at the start of the week, I make a list of every day, and then I also keep a separate column for just general priorities. So, things that are particularly important for the week, themes of work going on, like, technology changes, or things that we're trying to launch, et cetera. And then I will prioritize speaking to people based on those things. So, I'll try and make sure that I'm focusing on the most important thing. I do a weekly meeting with the team. So, we have a few directors that look after different aspects of the business, and so we do a weekly meeting to just run through everything that's going on and sharing the problems. We use the three P's model: so, sharing progress problems and plans. And we use that to try and steer on what we do. And we also look at some other team health metrics. Yeah, it's interesting actually. I think when I switched from working in one of the teams to being in the CTO role, things change quite substantially. That list of things that I had to care about increase hugely, to the point where it far exceeded how much time I had to spend on anything. So, nowadays, I find that I'm much more likely for some things to drop off. And so it's unfortunate, and you can't please everybody, so you just have to say, “I'm really sorry, but this thing is not high on the list of priorities, so I can't spend any time on it this week, but if it's still a problem in a couple of weeks time, then we'll come back to it.” But yeah, it can vary quite a lot.Emily: Hmm, interesting. I might ask you more questions about that later. For now, let's sort of dive into the cloud-native journey. What made RVU decide that containerization was a good idea and that Kubernetes was a good idea? What were the motivations and who was pushing for it?Paul: That's a really good question. So, I got involved about 10 years ago. So, I worked for a search marketing startup that was in London called Forward Internet Group, and they acquired USwitch in 2010. And prior to working at Forward, I'd worked as a consultant at ThoughtWorks in London, so I spent a lot of time working in banks on continuous delivery and things like that. And so when Uswitch came along, there were a few issues around the software release process. Although there was a ton of automation, it was still quite slow to actually get releases out. We were only doing a release every fortnight. And we also had a few issues with the scalability of data. So, it was a monolithic Windows Microsoft stack. So, there was SQL Server databases, and .NET app servers, and things like that. And our traffic can be quite spiky, so when companies are in the news, or there's policy changes and things like that, we would suddenly get an increase in traffic, and the Microsoft solution would just generally kind of fall apart as soon as we hit some kind of threshold. So, I got involved, partly to try and improve some of the automation and release practices because at the search start-up, we were releasing experiments every couple of hours, even. And so we wanted to try and take a bit of that ethos over to Uswitch, and also to try and solve some of the data scalability and system scalability problems. And when we got started doing that, a lot of it was—so that was in the early heyday of AWS, so this was about 2008, that I was at the search startup. And we were used to using EC2 to try and spin up Hadoop clusters and a few other bits and pieces that we were playing around with. And when we acquired Uswitch, we felt like it was quickest for us to just create a different environment, stick it under the load balancer so end users wouldn't realize that some requests was being served off of the AWS infrastructure instead, and then just gradually go from there. We found that that was just the fastest way to move. So, I think it was interesting, and it was both a deliberate move, but it was also I think the degree to which we followed through on it, I don't think we'd really anticipated quite how quickly we would shift everything. And so when Forward made the acquisition, I joined summer of 2010, and myself and a colleague wrote a little two-pager on, here are the problems we see, here are the things that we think we can help with and the ways that technology approach that we'd applied at Forward would carry across, and what benefits we thought it would bring. Unfortunately because Forward was a privately held business—we were relatively small but profitable—and the owner of that business was quite risk-affine. He was quite keen on playing blackjack and other stuff. So, he was pretty happy with talking about probabilities of success.And so we just said, we think there's a future in it if we can get the wheels turning a bit better. And he was up for it. He backed us and we just took it from there. And so we replaced everything from self-hosted physical infrastructure running on top of .NET to all AWS hosted, running a mix of Ruby, and Closure, and other bits and pieces in about two years. And that's just continued from there. So, the move to Kubernetes was a relatively recent one; that was only within the last—I say ‘recent.' it was about two years ago, we started moving things in earnest. And then you asked what was the rationale for switching to Kubernetes—Emily: Let me first ask you, when you were talking with the owner, what were the odds that you gave him for success?Paul: [laughs]. That's a good question. I actually don't know. I think we always knew that there was a big impact to be had. I don't think we knew the scale of the upside. So, I don't think we—I mean, at the time, Uswitch was just about breaking even, so we didn't realize that there was an opportunity to radically change that. I think we underestimated how long it would take to do. So, I think we'd originally thought that we could replace, I think maybe most of the stuff that we needed replaced within six months. We had an early prototype out within two weeks, two or three weeks because we'd always placed a big emphasis on releasing early, experimenting, iterative delivery, A/B testing, that kind of thing. So, I think it was almost like that middle term that was the harder piece. And there was definitely a point where… I don't know, I think it was this classic situation of pulling on a ball of string where it was like, what wanted to do was to focus on improving the end-user experience because our original belief was that, aside from the scalability issues, that the existing site just didn't solve the problem sufficiently well, that it needed an overhaul to simplify the journeys, and simplify the process, and improve the experience for people. We were focusing on that and we didn't want to get drawn into replacing a lot of the back office and integration type systems partly because there was a lot of complexity there. But also because you then have to engage with QA environments, and test environments, and sign-offs with the various people that we integrate with. But it was, as I said, it was this kind of tugging on a ball of string where every improvement that we made in the end-user experience—so we would increase conversion rate by 10 percent but through doing that, we would introduce downstream error in the ways that those systems would integrate, and so we gradually just ended up having to pull in slightly more and more pieces to make it work. I don't think we ever gave odds of success. I think we underestimated how long that middle piece would take. I don't think we really anticipated the degree of upside that we would get as a consequence, through nothing other than just making releases quicker, being able to test and move faster, and focusing on end-user experience was definitely the right thing to focus on.Emily: Do you think though, that everybody perceived it as a risk? I'm just asking because you mentioned the blackjack, was this a risk that could fail?Paul: Well, I think the interesting thing about it was that we knew it was the right thing to do. So, again, I think our experience as consultants at ThoughtWorks was on applying continuous delivery, what we would today call DevOps, applying those practices to software delivery. And so we'd worked on systems where there weren't continuous integration servers and where people weren't releasing every day, and then we'd worked in environments where we were releasing every couple of hours, and we were very quickly able to hone in on what worked and discard things that didn't. And so I think because we've been able to demonstrate that success within the search business, I think that carried a great deal of trust. And so when it came to talking about things we could potentially do, we were totally convinced that there were things that we could improve. I think it was a combination of, there was a ton of potential, we knew that there was a new confluence of technologies and approaches that could be successful if we were able to just start over. And then I think also probably a healthy degree of, like, naive, probably overconfidence in what we could do that we would just throw ourselves into it. So, it's hard work, but yeah, it was ultimately highly successful. So, it's something I'm exceedingly proud of today.Emily: You said something really interesting, which is that Uswitch was barely profitable. And if I understand correctly, that changed for the better. Can you talk about how this is related?Paul: Yeah, sure. I think the interesting thing about it was that we knew that there was something we could do better, but we weren't sure what it was. And so the focus was always on being able to release as frequently as we possibly could to try and understand what that was, as well as trying to just simplify and pay back some of the technical debt. Well, so, trying to overcome some of the artificial constraints that existed because of the technology choices that people have made—perfectly decent decisions on, back in the day, but platforms like AWS offered better alternatives, now. So, we just focused on being able to deliver iteratively, and just keep focusing on continual improvement, releasing, understanding what the problems were, and then getting rid of those little niggly things. The manager I had at Forward was this super—I don't know, he just had the perfect ethos, and he was driven—so we were a team that were focused on doing daily experiments. And so we would rely on data on our spend and data on our revenue. And that would come in on a daily cycle. So, a lot of the rhythm of the team was driven off of that cycle. And so as we could run experiments and measure their profitability, we could then inform what we would do on the day. And so, we have a handful of long-running technology things that we were doing, and then we would also have other tactical things that he would have ideas on, he would have some hypothesis of, well, “Maybe this is the reason that this is happening, let's come up with a test that we can use to try and figure out whether that's true.” We would build something quickly to throw it together to help us either disprove it or support it, and we would put it live, see what happened, and then move on to the next thing. And so I think a lot of the—what we wanted to do is to instill a bit of that environment in Uswitch. And so a lot of it was being able to release quickly, making sure that people had good data in front of them. I mean, even tools like Google Analytics were something which we were quite au fait with using but didn't have broad adoption at the time. And so we were using that to look at site behavior and what was going on and reason about what was happening. So, we just tried to make sure that people were directly using that, rather than just making changes on a longer cycle without data at all.Emily: And can you describe how you were working with the business side, and how you were communicating, what the sort of working relationship was like? If there was any misunderstandings on either side.Paul: Yeah, it's a good question. So, when I started at Uswitch, the organizational structure was, I guess, relatively classical. So, you had a pooled engineering team. So, it was a monolithic system, deployed onto physical infrastructure. So, there was an engineering team, there was an operations team, and then there were a handful of people that were business specific in the different markets that we operated in. So, there was a couple of people that focused on, like, the credit card market; a couple of people that focused on energy, for example. And, I used to call it the stand-up swarm: so, in the morning, we would sit on our desks and you would see almost the entire office moved from the different card walls that were based around the office. Although there was a high degree of interaction between the business stakeholders, the engineers, designers, and other people, it always felt slightly weird that you would have almost all of the company interested in almost everything that was going on, and so I think the intuition we had was that a lot of the ways that we would think about structuring software around loosely-coupled but highly cohesive, those same principles should or could apply to the organization itself. And so what we tried to do is to make sure that we had multidisciplinary teams that had the people in them to do the work. So, for the early days of the energy work, there was only a couple of us that were in it. So, we had a couple of engineers, and we had a lady called Emma, who was the product owner. She used to work in the production operations team, so she used to be focused on data entry from the products that different energy providers would send us, but she had the strongest insight into the domain problem, what problem consumers were trying to overcome, and what ways that we could react to it. And so, when we got involved, she had a couple of ideas that she'd been trying to get traction on, that she'd been unable to. And so what we—we had a, I don't know, probably a, I think a half-day session in an office. So, we took over the boardroom at the office and just said, “Look, we could really do with a separate space away from everybody to be able to focus on it. And we just want to prove something out for a couple of weeks. And we want to make sure that we've got space for people to focus.” And so we had a half-day in there, we had a conversation about, “Okay, well, what's the problem? What's the technical complexity of going after any of these things?” And there's a few nuances, too. Like, if you choose option A, then we have to get all of the historical information around it, as well as the current products and market. Whereas if we choose option B, then we can simplify it down, and we don't need to do all of that work, and we can try and experiment with something sooner. So, we wanted it to be as collaborative as possible because we knew that the way that we would be successful is by trying to execute on ideas faster than we'd been able to before. And at the same time, we also wanted to make sure that there was a feeling of momentum and that we would—I think there was probably a healthy degree of slight overconfidence, but we were also very keen to be able to show off what we could do. And so we genuinely wanted to try and improve the environment for people so that we could focus on solving problems quicker, trying out more experiments, being less hung up on whether it was absolutely the right thing to do, and instead just focus on testing it. So, were there tensions? I think there were definitely tensions; I don't think there weren't tensions so much on the technical side; we were very lucky that most of the engineers that already worked there were quite keen on doing something different, and so we would have conversations with them and just say, “Look, we'll try everything we can to try and remove as many of the constraints that exist today.” I think a lot of the disagreement or tension was whether or not it was the right problem to be going after. So, again, the search business that we worked in was doing a decent amount of money for the number of people that were there, and we knew there was a problem we could fix, but we didn't know how much runway it would have. And so there was a lot of tension on whether we should be pulling people into focusing on extending the search business, or whether we needed to focus on fixing Uswitch. So, there was a fair amount of back and forth about whether or not we needed to move people from one part of the business to another and that kind of thing.Emily: Let's talk a little bit about Kubernetes, and how Uswitch decided to use Kubernetes, what problem it solved, and who was behind the decision, who was really making the push.Paul: Yeah, interesting. So, I think containers was something that we'd been experimenting with for a little while. So, as I think a lot of the culture was, we were quite risk-affine. So, we were quite keen to be trying out new technologies, and we'd been using modern languages and platforms like Closure since the early days of them being available. We'd been playing around with containers for a while, and I think we knew there was something in it, but we weren't quite sure what it was. So, I think, although we were playing around with it quite early, I think we were quite slow to choose one platform or another. I think in the end, we—in the intervening period, I guess, between when we went from the more classical way of running Puppet across a bunch of EC2 instances that run a version of your application, the next step after that was switching over to using ECS. So, Amazon's container service. And I guess the thing that prompted a bit more curiosity into Kubernetes was that—I forgot the projects I was working on, but I was working on a team for a little while, and then I switched to go do something else. And I needed to put a new service up, and rather than just doing the thing that I knew, I thought, “Well, I'll go talk to the other teams.” I'll talk to some other people around the company, and find out what's the way that I ought to be doing this today, and there was a lot of work around standardizing the way that you would stand up an ECS cluster. But I think even then, it always felt like we were sharing things in the wrong way. So, if you were working on a team, you had to understand a great deal of Amazon to be able to make progress. And so, back when I got started at Uswitch, when I talk about doing the work about the energy migration, AWS at the time really only offered EC2, load balancers, firewalling, and then eventually relational databases, and so back then the amounts of complexity to stand up something was relatively small. And then come to a couple of years ago. You have to appreciate and understand routing tables, VPCs, the security rules that would permit traffic to flow between those, it was one of those—it was just relatively non-trivial to do something that was so core to what we needed to be able to do. And I think the thing that prompted Kubernetes was that, on the Kubernetes project side, we'd seen a gradual growth and evolution of the concepts, and abstractions, and APIs that it offered. And so there was a differentiation between ECS or—I actually forget what CoreOS's equivalent was. I think maybe it was just called CoreOS. But there are a few alternative offerings for running containerized, clustered services, and Kubernetes seems to take a slightly different approach that it was more focused on end-user abstractions. So, you had a notion of making a deployment: that would contain replicas of a container, and you would run multiple instances of your application, and then that would become a service, and you could then expose that via Ingress. So, there was a language that you could use to talk about your application and your system that was available to you in the environment that you're actually using. Whereas AWS, I think, would take the view that, “Well, we've already got these building blocks, so what we want our users to do is assemble the building blocks that already exist.” So, you still have to understand load balancers, you still have to understand security groups, you have to understand a great deal more at a slightly lower level of abstraction. And I think the thing that seemed exciting, or that seems—the potential about Kubernetes was that if we chose something that offered better concepts, then you could reasonably have a team that would run some kind of underlying platform, and then have teams build upon that platform without having to understand a great deal about what was going on inside. They could focus more on the applications and the systems that they were hoping to build. And that would be slightly harder on the alternative. So, I think at the time, again, it was one of those fortunate things where I was just coming to the end of another project and was in the fortunate position where I was just looking around at the various different things that we were doing as a business, and what opportunity there was to do something that would help push things on. And Kubernetes was one of those things which a couple of us had been talking about, and thinking, “Oh, maybe now is the time to give it a go. There's enough stability and maturity in it; we're starting to hit the problems that it's designed to address. Maybe there's a bit more appetite to do something different.” So, I think we just gave it a go. Built a proof of concept, showed that could run the most complex system that we had, and I think also did a couple of early experiments on the ways in which Kubernetes had support for horizontal scaling and other things which were slightly harder to put into practice in AWS. And so we did all that, I think gradually it just kind of growed out from there, just took the proof of concepts to other teams that were building products and services. We found a team that were struggling to keep their systems running because they were a tiny team. They only had, like, two or three engineers in. They had some stability problems over a weekend because the server ran out of hard disk space, and we just said, “Right. Well, look, if you use this, we'll take on that problem. You can just focus on the application.” It kind of just grew and grew from there.Emily: Was there anything that was a lot harder than you expected? So, I'm looking for surprises as you're adopting Kubernetes.Paul: Oh, surprises. I think there was a non-trivial amount that we had to learn about running it. And again, I think at the point at which we'd picked it up, it was, kind of, early days for automation, so there was—I think maybe Google had just launched Google Kubernetes engine on Google Cloud. Amazon certainly hadn't even announced that hosted Kubernetes would be an option. There was an early project within Kubernetes, called kops that you could use to create a cluster, but even then it didn't fit our network topology because it wouldn't work with the VPC networking that we needed and expected within our production infrastructure. So, there was a lot of that kind of work in the early days, to try and make something work, you had to understand in quite a level of detail what each component of Kubernetes was doing. As we were gradually rolling it out, I think the things that were most surprising were that, for a lot of people, it solved a lot of problems that meant they could move on, and I think people were actually slightly surprised by that. Which, [laughs], it sounds like quite a weird turn of phrase, but I think people were positively surprised at the amount of stuff that they didn't have to do for solving a fair few number of problems that they had. There was a couple of teams that were doing things that are slightly larger scale that we had to spend a bit more time on improving the performance of our setup. So, in particular, there was a team that had a reasonably strong requirement on the latency overheads of Ingress. So, they wanted their application to respond within, I don't know, I think it was maybe 200 milliseconds or something. And we, through setting up the monitoring and other bits and pieces that we had, we realized that Ingress currently was doing all right, but there was a fair amount of additional latency that was added at the tail that was a consequence of a couple of bugs or other things that existed in the infrastructure. So, there was definitely a lot of little niggly things that came up as we were going, but we were always confident that we could overcome it. And, as I said, I think that a lot of teams saw benefits very early on. And I think the other teams that were perhaps a little bit more skeptical because they got their own infrastructure already, they knew how to operate it, it was highly tested, they'd already run capacity and load tests on it, they were convinced that it was the most efficient thing that they could possibly run. I think even over the long run, I think they realized that there was more work that they needed to do than they should be focusing on, and so they were quite happy to ultimately switch over to the shared platform and infrastructure that the cloud infrastructure team run.Emily: As we wrap up, there's actually a question I want to go back to, which is how you were talking about the shifting priorities now that you've become CTO. Do you have any sort of examples of, like, what are the top three things that you will always care about, that you will always have the energy to think about? And then I'm curious to have some examples of things that you can't deal with, you can't think about. The things that tend to drop off.Paul: The top three things that I always think about. So, I think, actually, what's interesting about being CTO, that I perhaps wasn't expecting is that you're ever so slightly removed from the work, that you can't rely on the same signals or information to be able to make a decision on things, and so when I give the Kubernetes story, it's one of those, like, because I'd moved from one system to another, and I was starting a new project, I experienced some pain. It's like, “Right. Okay, I've got to go do something to fix this. I've had enough.” And I think the thing that I'm always paying attention to now, is trying to understand where that pain is next, and trying to make sure that I've got a mechanism for being able to appreciate that. So, I think a lot of the things I try to spend time on are things to help me keep track of what's going on, and then help me make decisions off the back of it. So, I think the things that I always spend time on are generally things trying to optimize some process or invest in automation. So, a good example at the moment is, we're talking about starting to do canary deployments. So, starting to automate the actual rollout of some new release, and being able to automate a comparison against the existing service, looking at latency, or some kind of transactional metrics to understand whether it's performing as well or different than something historical. So, I think the things that I tend to spend time on are process-oriented or are things to try and help us go quicker. One of the books that I read that changed my opinion of management was Andy Grove's, High Output Management. And I forget who recommended it to me, but somebody recommended it to me, and it completely altered my opinion of what value a manager can add. So, one of the lenses I try to apply to anything is of everything that's going on, what's the handful of things that are going to have the most impact or leverage across the organization, and try and spend my time on those. I think where it gets tricky is that you have to go broad and deep. So, as much as there are broad things that have a high consequence on the organization as a whole, you also need an appreciation of what's going on in the detail, and I think that's always tricky to manage. I'm sorry, I forgot what was the second part of your question.Emily: The second part was, do you have any examples of the things that you tend to not care about? That presumably someone is asking you to care about, and you don't?Paul: [laughs]. Yeah, it's a good question. I don't think it's that I don't care about it. I think it's that there are some questions that come my way that I know that I can defer, or they're things which are easy to hand off. So, I think the… that is a good question. I think one of the things that I think are always tricky to prioritize, are things which feel high consequence but are potentially also very close to bikeshedding. And I think that is something which is fair—I'd be interested to hear what other people said. So, a good example is, like, choice of tooling. And so when I was working on a team, or on a problem, we would focus on choosing the right tool for the job, and we would bias towards experimenting with tools early, and figuring out what worked, and I think now you have to view the same thing through a different lens. So, there's a degree to which you also incur an organizational cost as a consequence of having high variability in the programming languages that you choose to use. And so I don't think it's something I don't care about, but I think it's something which is interesting that I think it's something which, over the time I've been doing this role, I've gradually learned to let go of things that I would otherwise have previously thoroughly enjoyed getting involved in. And so you have to step back and say, “Well, actually I'm not the right person to be making a decision about which technology this team should be using. I should be trusting the team to make that decision.” And you have to kind of—I think that over the time I've been doing the role, you kind of learn which are the decisions that are high consequence that you should be involved in and which are the ones that you have to step back from. And you just have to say, look, I've got two hours of unblocked time this week where I can focus on something, so of the things on my priority list—the things that I've written in my journal that I want to get done this month—which of those things am I going to focus on, and which of the other things can I leave other people to get on with, and trust that things will work out all right?Emily: That's actually a very good segue into my final question, which is the same for everyone. And that is, what is an engineering tool that you can't live without—your favorite?Paul: Oh, that's a good question. So, I don't know if this is a cop-out by not mentioning something engineering-related, but I think the tool and technique which has helped me the most as I had more and more management responsibility and trying to keep track of things, is bullet journaling. So, I think, up until, I don't know, maybe five years ago, probably, I'd focus on using either iOS apps or note tools in both my laptop, and phone, and so on, and it never really stuck. And bullet journaling, through using a pen and a notepad, it forced me to go a bit slower. So, it forced me to write things down, to think through what was going on, and there is something about it being physical which makes me treat it slightly differently. So, I think bullet journaling is one of the things which has had the—yeah, it's really helped me deal with keeping track of what's going on, and then giving me the ability to then look back over the week, figure out what were the things that frustrated me, what can I change going into next week, one of the suggestions that the person that came up with bullet journaling recommended, is this idea of an end of week reflection. And so, one of the things I try to do—it's been harder doing it now that I'm working at home—is to spend just 15 minutes at the end of the week thinking of, what are the things that I'm really proud of? What are some good achievements that I should feel really good about going into next week? And so I think a lot of the activities that stem from bullet journaling have been really helpful. Yeah, it feels like a bit of a cop-out because it's not specifically technology related, but bullet journaling is something which has made a big difference to me.Emily: Not at all. That's totally fair. I think you are the first person who's had a completely non-technological answer, but I think I've had someone answer Slack, something along those lines.Paul: Yeah, I think what's interesting is there there are loads of those tools that we use all the time. Like Google Docs is something I can't live without. So, I think there's a ton of things that I use day-to-day that are hard to let go off, but I think the I think that the things that have made the most impact on my ability to deal with a stressful job, and give you the ability to manage yourself a little bit, I think yeah, it's been one of the most interesting things I've done.Emily: And where could listeners connect with you or follow you?Paul: Cool. So, I am @pingles on Twitter. My DMs are open, so if anybody wants to talk on that, I'm happy to. I'm also on GitHub under pingles, as well. So, @pingles, generally in most places will get you to me.Emily: Well, thank you so much for joining me.Paul: Thank you for talking. It's been good fun.Announcer: Thank you for listening to The Business of Cloud Native podcast. Keep up with the latest on the podcast at thebusinessofcloudnative.com and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are distributed. We'll see you next time.

Paul Travers has been in the XR business long enough to remember the early headsets, which were not exactly elegant in design – he describes one of his early models as a football helmet. But today, Vuzix has managed to shrink a ton of XR potential into sleek, sexy sunglasses that would look good on any goth noir vampire slayer. He chats with Alan about the advantages of svelte headsets, from military applications to making driving safer. Alan: Welcome to the XR for Business Podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. Today’s guest is Paul Travers. Paul is the founder of Vuzix and has served as the president and chief executive officer since 1997. Prior to the formation of Vuzix, Mr. Travers founded both e-Tek Labs and Forte Technologies Inc. He has been a driving force towards the development of products in the consumer market. With more than 25 years experience in consumer electronics field and 15 years experience in virtual reality and virtual display fields, he is a nationally recognized industry expert. He’s joined by Vuzix’s head of business development, Matt Margolis. If you want to learn more about the Vuzix platform and their headsets, you can visit vuzix.com. Paul and Matt, welcome to the show, guys. Paul: Hey, Alan. Thanks for having us. Alan: It’s my absolute honor. You guys are making augmented reality headsets that people actually will want to wear. And I think it’s amazing, your Blade glasses look like a pair of awesome sunglasses. They’re lightweight. They’re wireless. They’re every– they’re all the things. How long has it taken you guys to get there? I mean, you started in 1997. You must have gone through massive iterations along the way. Paul: Yeah, Alan. I mean, we’ve made all the big stuff, the crazy things. They really started in ’93 or ’94 when we started shipping our very first VR headset, the VFX-1. And if you look it up, you’ll see VFX-1, it’s a football helmet sized gizmo. And then in ’97, actually I bought out all the outside shareholders and started Vuzix. A little bit of history there, we started in the defense space. We were making thermal weapons sight engines that go in the back of the light/medium/heavy thermal weapons type programs for DRS and Raytheon. And doing that, we got an opportunity to work with the special forces guys. And if you think about it, these guys are carrying around 300 pounds of gear. They got their laptop. They’re basically the ultimate mobile wearable tech guy. And at night, they would light up like a Christmas tree. So they put a poncho over their head. They had all this gear on and they came to Vuzix and said, look, could you guys make a pair of Oakley style sunglasses? They called it the Oakley Gate. And they said, if we could do that, half the military would buy these things. And so even all the way back then — it was ’97 to 2000 — these Special Forces guys wanted cool. They wanted lightweight. They wanted it truly functional. And so over the years, we’ve come out with a lot of different devices and each iteration we’ve been pushing on, making them smaller and lighter. We were talking a little bit earlier about the top-down versus bottom-up approach. I mean, there’s some really cool technology that’s out there that’s doing all spatial computing and the likes, but it’s big. And for Vuzix, we’re taking the lightweight, trim, wearable all day side of it, but highly functional. When you’re looking for streaming video applications where you’re doing see-what-I-see for maintenance, repair, and overhaul, or you’re in a warehouse all day long taking stuff out of that warehouse. You don’t want a great big, heavy thing. You want a supe

Game engines like the versatile Unity have long been the go-to for AR development, and for good reason. But its reputation as a video game engine can also be intimidating — especially to those who want to create AR software for enterprise. That’s why Paul Reynolds lit his TORCH; an app he co-founded that lets you design your own AR platform, right in the palm of your hand. He chats with Alan about his claim to flame. Alan: Hey, everyone, my name’s Alan Smithson, the host of the XR for Business Podcast. Today’s guest is Paul Reynolds, the CEO of Torch, a really exciting augmented reality platform. It’s a mobile augmented reality development and deployment platform for enterprise. Paul has been a software developer and technology consultant since 1997 – since before the interwebs! In 2013, after 10 years of creating video games, he joined Magic Leap where he was promoted to senior director, overseeing content and SDK teams. At Magic Leap, Paul recognized the lack of accessible tools for non-game developers that was hindering widespread adoption of immersive and spatial computing technologies. In 2016, Paul moved to Portland, Oregon, where he founded Torch to address this very problem. To learn more about Torch, you can visit torch.app. Paul, welcome to the show. Paul: Thanks for having me. Alan: It’s such a pleasure. I’ve been looking forward to this episode. Torch is such a cool platform and I keep seeing your posts on LinkedIn of putting stuff around your office and stuff. So tell us, what is Torch, and how did you come up with this crazy idea? Paul: The easiest way to think about it is, it’s a mobile application — currently for iOS — that lets anyone build interactive spatial scenes. So, you create a project and you’re building it in the camera of your device, which means you’re also walking around the space, or moving around the space and you’re building up interactive experiences visually, without writing any code. We call that the design environment, and that’s the freely available [option] — anyone can jump into it and just start building. What makes it a platform is the capability of taking what you’ve created in Torch, and exporting it and publishing it and integrating it into your existing app, or pushing it out to another platform or tool. What we really wanted to focus on was allowing people to iterate in augmented reality — directly within augmented reality — as opposed to sitting on a desktop computer and trying to figure out how to work a game editor, and get more people able to work productively in 3D. That’s really the heart of it. Alan: That’s so cool, because if you’re sitting at your office, you’re like, “wow, this AR stuff is hot. It’s amazing.” You know what, go learn Unity and coding and figure out how to actually make it. Six months later, you’re like, “oh, look, I made a portal.” Paul: [laughs] Right. Alan: What you guys have built is a simple way to just do it visually. Paul: Yeah. So, my background was in video games, back in the day where everyone was building their own engine. You really didn’t even have time to build a really nice editor on top of that. So when Unity came out — we’ll pick on Unity in particular, because it’s just such a well-known product — when it came out, it was the game engine that most of these game studios I’ve worked for wanted to build. And that was really unique; they had basically taken what would normally mean millions and millions of internal R&D dollars, and turned it into this tool that pretty much anyone can download for free. B